[Deck] Vial Goblins

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Vial Goblins Primer

(Join us on our Discord server! (https://discordapp.com/invite/2jd7WBf))

https://i.imgur.com/smn0BhU.png

0. Update notes

18:51 10/17/2019
* Major update, due to ever changing landscape of Legacy
* Renovated the Faces of Goblins.
* Several grammatical fixes.
* Match-ups are still out of date, but are next on the agenda. Curse you ever changing landscape of Legacy!

23:23 1/24/2019
* Thanks to the user GoblinLackey1: For having some information about the Grixis Control and Depths Matchups, along with the black splash in general.
* Added GoblinLackey1’s Goblins Match-Up Percentages and performances into Goblin Related Literature.
* Thanks to the discord user Dataspot: Noted a ruling mentioned in the primer that is no longer accurate.
* Separated Cratermaker and Trashman into their own categories in Shatter Goblins.
* Added a Stig on Rishadan Port and Wasteland.

03:14 10/11/2018
* Added a banner to lighten up the initial impact of the primer.
* Cleaning up wording all around.
* Added some to be tested cards.

18:19 10/10/2018
* Typos.

I. Introduction
a) History
b) Strategy
c) Why should I play Goblins?
II. Maindeck
a) Mana
b) The Core
c) Staples
d) The Finisher Goblins
III. Matchups & Strategy
a) Matchups
b) Sideboarding
V. Outside the Box
a) Already tested, bad card choices
b) To Be Tested Cards
c) Tested, Niche Potential
VI. Literature
a) Goblin Related
b) Legacy Related
c) General Magic Theory
VII. Final Addendum


I. Introduction

a) History
Here is a brief outline of the deck's development.
Vial Goblins exists since the very beginning of the format Legacy. It came to life with the printing of Goblin Warchief, Goblin Piledriver, Siege-Gang Commander, Goblin Sharpshooter and Gempalm Incinerator – all of which were included in the Onslaught block. Later, AEther Vial was released which made the deck one of the most dominant decks in the format. The deck gradually lost its dominant position with the power-creep that creatures since the Ravnica block are experiencing. In 2011 with the release of Stoneforge Mystic and Batterskull the deck was once again said to be "dead". Goblins faced the problem that any creature-based strategy was more efficient: while Goblins always relied on their synergistic abilities to spam high CMC creatures like Goblin Ringleader and Siege-Gang Commander, other creature-based strategies were able to just play with any combination of cards that were strong in their own rights while having very low mana costs.
However, people didn't lose interest in Goblins. Less than one year later (spring of 2012) some players were coming up with innovative deck lists and strategies to compete in the meta. Then, in May 2012 we were blessed with the printing of Cavern of Souls which initiated a come back for Vial Goblins. It had a tenuous lifespan though, as Deathrite Shaman made more decks play fair, but mostly at a disadvantage to itself, the whole while Sensei's Divining Top Miracles was dominant. We were in a 50-50 meta, beating Miracles and losing consistency to the shaman. As it turns out both of those cards were deemed unreasonable and have since been banned. With the release of War of the Spark and Modern Horizons a host of changes occurred in Legacy. A lot of it is driven by the new 2 drop walker in Wrenn & Six, acting as a pseudo Life from the Loam / Prodigal Sorcerer. This insulation of mana, and aggressive Wasteland lock mixed with the ability to knock out chip shot creatures like Thalia, Guardian of Thraben pushed RUG Delver back on top, while simultaneously punishing against many of the things goblins is good at. This meta is still shaking out, and we are excited to fight this new fair foe.

Additionally this thread itself has some history.
The First Thread. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5557-DTB-Vial-Goblins)
The Second Thread. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins)

b) Strategy
So what do Goblins do? Goblins have two major strategies: (1) beating our opponents as fast as possible. and (2) grinding out games to win in late game via card- (and board-) advantage. The first strategy is made possible by a combination of Goblin Lackey, Warren Instigator, and Goblin Piledriver, while the latter strategy makes use of the huge card-advantage which the deck can create with cards like Goblin Matron, Goblin Ringleader and Mogg War Marshal. Which strategy to use is highly dependent on the matchup and the meta – oftentimes you will find yourself using a mixture of both roles even in the same game.

c) Why should I play Goblins?
Most of all, you should play goblins when you are looking for a deck that can beat control decks on a regular basis. In this sense Vial Goblins is a meta deck. You will realize that there are goblin-friendly metas and goblin-hostile metas. Goblins rewards knowledge of the metagame because the deck has a relatively large number of playable cards in the MD as well as in the SB that you can or cannot use to tune your deck for the metagame you are expecting. Goblins is also a deck with many faces: there is not ONE, but at least TWO "stock-lists" all of which have a different strategy and perform differently against the field. This makes it hard for your opponents to get a good grasp on the deck. Next, Goblins is a very old deck and many newer players won't know how to play against it. The deck has a lot of play to it. It is very easy to play the deck wrong, but many of these less than perfect lines can lead to game win. It's similar to Affinity in Modern in this regard, but these decisions come in the mid-game instead of the early game. That is not to say that the deck is so strong that it will beat many decks while your brain is on 'standby-mode'. Furthermore there is a ton of decisions to be made during the deck building process, and they matter as much as your game play. As I said, there are plenty of 'playable' cards, but it is essential that your card choices really fit the metagame requirements. This will come back at you when you have to decide whether to play, let's say, Goblin Chieftain or Goblin Warchief. The devil is in the details. So, you should also play Goblins if you are willing to invest some time in working out the details of the deck (the first step has been set once you fought yourself through this deck primer).

If you enjoy a Midrange strategy that is a bit on the lean side, that has acceptable control AND combo elements to it, this deck is for you.


II. The Maindeck

a) Mana

https://i.imgur.com/kqGF0sa.png



Let's talk about mana first. Goblins is a very mana hungry deck which needs to be provided with lands in the first three turns to ensure a fast and solid start. The high mana costs of cards like Goblin Ringleader and mana consuming abilities like those of Rishadan Port "force" us to play a number of mana sources: 23-24.

This is generally spread between the RB mana base mixed with a suite of utility lands such as Cavern of Souls, Wasteland, Rishadan Port, and Karakas. Below is an example guide for a typical mana base.

4 Wasteland
0-4 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
1-3 Utility Land
6 Red Fetches
3-4 Mountain
1-2 Badlands
0-1 Swamp

Regardless of how you build the manabase, be aware of how many colored/colorless sources you have in your deck. Goblins is very hungry for colored sources, and you can lose games because you were only able to cast 1 spell a turn. 16 red sources is considered the gold standard (including Caverns), and fewer than that may require concessions in your creature package (Looking at you Goblin Chainwhirler).

And if for some strange meta or budget reason you are still on 1 color, Please reference this article.
Mathemagics: Onslaught Fetchlands - Should You Run Fetch Lands? (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/print.asp?ID=3096)

Mana-denial is an important part of Goblins' gameplan. So what do we do when we are flooding? We attempt to cause our opponent to drought, or screw. This is why a playset of Wastelands + X Rishadan Ports find their way into most Goblin lists.

Wasteland simply put is one of the strongest tempo cards in the format. Since decks often run very few basic lands it usually simply acts as Strip Mine, a card not legal in Legacy, and sets your opponent back. You generally should not Wasteland when you are behind early as the mana advantage is important, but it does allow plays such as tagging the opponents only non-basic Island to play around Daze, or simply to stop them from playing the game at all if they don't have more mana sources in hand. Wasteland should be seen as a mana producing spell, and keeping your opening hand often involves making sure you can still play the game after using Wasteland, or worse, getting hit by one.

Rishadan Port is a really powerful way to mana deny your opponents without losing your land ala Wasteland. It is the best turn 2 the deck has access to sans builds than run Warren Instigator, and using it properly involves a lot of match-up experience and practice.

Generally you use Port during your opponent's upkeep, to prevent them from having mana on their main phase. It is strictly correct from a technical standpoint to resolve each port one at a time, waiting for the stack to empty, as it makes your opponent make all of their decisions at the time of activation. If they float any mana in response to the activation of port, let them draw a card for turn and hold priority in their draw step and port the next land in question. This is still before their main phase, and will dissipate any floating mana they had in their upkeep. Consider this situation carefully, because they might be able to use that mana in their draw step, such as a Miracled Terminus, or a freshly drawn instant speed kill spell.

If for some reason you deem it not correct to port during their upkeep, or simply forgot, you can still doing it during other critical points in the turn. Porting during combat comes up from time to time depending on the number of instant speed interactions you have on your opponent's turn. It should be noted that mana fizzles in between each phase of combat (Beginning of Combat, Declare Attackers, Declare Blockers, Damage, End of Combat). For instance a player might intend to Maze of Ith their own creature during the end of combat step, and you can port them before that occurs.

At the end of the opponent's turn you may choose to port a land that your opponent left up to use on your turn. In our deck the most common case of this scenario is when you have an AEther Vial at a card you want for your turns combat in hand. Your opponent passes with a single mana up for Lightning Bolt, Swords to Plowshares, or even Fatal Push. In this case you can port their one land down and have an unimpeded turn of combat and casting. Goblin Warchief, Cratermaker, and Goblin Lackey appreciate this the most.

Lastly you could port during your own upkeep or draw step, for the same reasons as above, to allow some creature to be useful later in the turn. Goblin Warchief is the obvious answer, but just not getting a lord (read Goblin Trashmaster or Goblin Chieftain) getting shot down mid combat helps a lot as well.

Manadenial lands can be used to deal with problematic cards like:
* so-called 'manlands': Mishra's Factory, Mutavault and Creeping Tar Pit
* Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
* Grove of the Burnwillows (in combo with Punishing Fire)
* Maze of Ith
* Dark Depths

[b][u]Non-Mana Denial Lands

Cavern of Souls is an auto-include in every Goblin deck list. The default number if 4 copies. This card simply does so much for the deck, and it does it in a very subtle way.
As far as splash colors are concerned, success has been reported with EVERY additional color. That said the new additions from black have truly pushed the deck into wanting the black splash, while thinking about others. Given the limited space, there is usually room for only 1-3 dual lands to support your splash color.

And a non-comprehensive list of other options that are often run:
* Karakas - Protects your own legendaries like Krenko, Mob Boss and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker; and bounces legendaries commonly played in Legacy, like Marit Lage, Iona, Shield of Emeria and Griselbrand).
* Volrath's Stronghold - Brings back cards like Gempalm Incinerator, Goblin Cratermaker, Goblin Matron, and Goblin Ringleader in the mid game allowing goblins to get ahead with more 1-1 or 2-1 value.
* Pendelhaven - Protects Lackey from Wrenn and Six and pumps it to get past early blockers like Mother of Runes and Delver of Secrets.
* Ancient Tomb - Acceleration that is not dependant on synergy. Tends to be better in post board games due to cards like Chalice of the Void. That said it is rarely run as a 4 of, and tends to be one or two utility lands.


b) [u]The Core

https://i.imgur.com/8y1Z34D.png

[b]AEther Vial
AEther Vial is one of the reasons why the deck can run such high CMC creatures. Oftentimes AEther Vial is ticked up every round, whereas one should carefully consider adding more than three counters.
Did you know that?
AEther Vial has an upkeep-trigger that reads "you may put a charge counter on AEther Vial." Therefore one should announce the trigger in each and every upkeep (you will NEVER forget that after a while) and then carefully think whether to add another counter or not. E.g.: It's our main phase and we control Vial with 2 counters on it (@2) – we have a Mogg War Marshal, Goblin Piledriver, and Goblin Ringleader on our hand and we want to cheat all of them through our opponent's counterspells. Actually we must leave AEther Vial @ 2 for two rounds to do that. At the end of our opponent's turn we tap it to bring in the 2 drop. In our next upkeep we announce the may-trigger and tap Vial in response to bring in MWM – after that, Vial's trigger resolves and we add another counter. So, in our next upkeep we can decide to bring in any cc3 Goblin or the 4 drop that is waiting in our hand.

Goblin Lackey
Cavern of Souls naming Goblin, Goblin Lackey, Go – is one of the best T1-play our deck has. His threatening, triggered ability enables fast and aggressive starts, even turn-3-kills (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5557/page306). On the other hand he does very often not "connect" because opponents will try everything to throw removal, counter or Stifle at him. Placing creatures in his way is oftentimes a plan-B, because the creature in question could be removed to make sure that Lackey gets the party started.
Did you know that?
Lackey's oracle-text reads that he can bring in goblin-permanents, whereas Warren Instigator can only bring in goblin-creatures. This fact is often irrelevant because most goblin permanents have legs anyways. Also there is a nice interaction with Rakdos Charm that doesn't work for Warren Instigator.

Goblin Matron
Goblin Matron, along with Goblin Ringleader, is the backbone of the deck. Most often you will fetch a Goblin Ringleader with her ability, but you can also choose any other goblin, depending on what is needed at the moment she enters the battlefield. E.g. fetch Goblin Chieftain to counter Engineered Plague, or Goblin Cratermaker to destroy that pesky equipment.
Did you know that?
…a foil Goblin Matron is only available in the 7th Edition and costs a whole lot of money.

Goblin Ringleader
Sometimes Goblin Ringleader just reads "draw 4 cards". Goblin Ringleader has an immediate impact on the game by potentially creating huge card advantage. At the average low end he will replace himself (that is: you invest one card to get one card in return), but most of the time he creates raw card advantage. This card advantage ultimately leads to board advantage (most cards you reveal are creature cards), which means that you are winning the game. It is also important to play as many goblins as possible (34 goblins is the maximum number with 22 lands and 4 AEther Vials) in your maindeck to make the best card of the deck even better.
Did you know that?
Ringleader never lets you down. Have you ever revealed 4 lands in a row? Yes, almost certainly. Have you ever been disappointed about this fact? You shouldn't! Every time Ringleader reveals 0 Goblin cards, ask yourself how the game would have turned out if you had drawn those cards for the next 4 turns! However he usually should reveal 3 Goblin cards, with 4 and 2 cards lying within standards, while 0 or 1 is highly unlikely.

How you fill the remaining 14 land-slots and which set of spells you choose for the MD is dependent from the metagame you are playing in. In other words: these slots are very flexible. What follows now is an explanation of proven subtypes of Goblin decks as well as a list of playable and unplayable cards.

c) Staples

https://i.imgur.com/bLUYTs1.png

Goblin Warchief / Goblin Chieftain
Hastey goblins are happy goblins. Both, Goblin Warchief and Goblin Chieftain, make the deck more explosive and much harder to deal with. Players usually spend 3-7 slots on 'haste lords' Goblin Warchief and Goblin Chieftain, whereas Goblin Warchief is the more popular choice due his explosive ability, Goblin Chieftain tends to be a nod to Plague Engineer and Wrenn and Six.
Suggested reading about Warchief and Chieftain: here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-DTB-Goblins&p=712777&viewfull=1#post712777).
Cards you should NOT run instead: Goblin King, Mad Auntie, Goblin Wardriver, Frogtosser Banneret, Goblin Lookout

Goblin Piledriver
Goblin Piledriver is a common choice for the deck. His insane triggered ability causes heavy damage to opponent's life points, when unblocked. However this is often not the case, since opponents place creatures and removal in his way. He supports aggressive strategies and makes the deck more explosive. His triggered ability checks the number of Goblins on resolution. This has two implications: (1) Stifle turn an attacking PD into a Squire and (2) your opponent can destroy (or remove) goblins in response to the triggered ability and still weaken your PD. People usually run 2-4 copies in their decklists.

Mogg War Marshal
Mogg War Marshal is the best ancillary effect the deck has access to. It does exactly 1 thing, and that's put some goblins into play. This has a huge ripple effect across the course of a game: coupled with mana denial and their own ability to just chump for little loss, many creature based decks can be time walked while you set up mana and Vial in creatures; Gempalm becomes inherently more powerful due to the goblin count; and it puts you in a good spot against spot removal. I often joke that "Mogg War Marshal is the glue that holds the deck together." This glue comes at a cost though, and that's against Combo and Plague Engineer. Many of the creatures here can battle, and battle rather quickly when unchecked, such as against a creatureless combo deck, but War Marshal is not one of them. 1-3 are the commonly run numbers to see on this card.

Gempalm Incinerator / Munitions Expert
Gempalm Incinerator historically is the common spot removal of choice in Goblin lists and usually 2-3 of. But with the addition of Munitions Expert (ME) a split became preferable. Usually favoring ME. Both cards work effectively as a conditional Terminate. The split between the two is explained by the minor differences they have. Gempalm Incinerator is much better when you are ahead, as you get to continue playing the control tempo route via never running out of cards, but ME has the ability to come down off a Vial, while counting one higher for the total goblin count. Expert also gives you a flash body on board, and can target Planeswalkers. Both cards have one inherent weakness, in that they require board state to be effective, and generally should be paired with at least one other type of removal (like Goblin Cratermaker to make sure dangerous cards like Plague Engineer stop becoming issues.
By default you should play 2 copies of Gempalm Incinerator, and 3 copies of Munitions Expert.
here (http://www.azmagicplayers.com/articles/5-tricky-legacy-interactions/).
Cards you should NOT run instead: Path to Exile, Swords to Plowshares, Mogg Fanatic* (Some exceptions apply). (https://thesaltminesite.com/2019/04/02/an-ode-to-mogg-fanatic/)

Goblin Cratermaker
Goblin Cratermaker is often in the maindeck due to his sheer versatility, everything with 1-4 copies being seen as successful, but commonly at 2-3. Cratermaker does way more than shatter artifacts though. His ability actually hits Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, allowing you to skimp on Stingscourger effects a little, and cards like Thought-Knot Seer. But that's just one of his abilities. His other ability is to deal 2 damage to target creature, and this mode gets used more often. Most creatures in Legacy actually die to 2 damage. Insectile Aberration, Stoneforge Mystic, Young Pyromancer, Plague Engineer none of these cards like seeing a Cratermaker come down from a Cavern or a Vial. This card is a staple of maindeck in addition to being a shatter.
Cards you should NOT run instead: Abrade

Pashalik Mons / Goblin Sharpshooter
Pashalik Mons (and to a lesser extent Goblin Sharpshooter) are common choices for Goblin decks. They help in the mirror-match, against hordes of Elves and counters a lot of strategies that rely on X/1 creatures (oftentimes tokens), such as Young Pyromancer, Monastery Mentor, Baleful Strix, and a ton of elves. They also have interactions with Skirk Prospector, Goblin Cratermaker, Goblin Trashmaster, and echo cards like Mogg War Marshal and Stingscourger. Pashalik Mons has overtaken the old staple of Sharpshooter for a couple of reasons. Pashalik does not suffer the terrible curse of being a 1/1. This is enormous, particularly because of Wrenn & Six and Plague Engineer. Pashalik’s other typical usage is to combo with Sling-Gang, as sacrificing one goblin will net 2 damage and 1 life for you, making it trivially easy to kill your opponent out of combat. It is typical to run 1-2 Pashalik Mons.
Did you know that?
Pashalik’s activated ability, although pricey, can generate lots of free bodies while pinging along the way, makes opposing removal spells awkward, and can conveniently kill a Plague Engineer.

Goblin Chainwhirler
Goblin Chainwhirler is a "faster" Sharpshooter with a stronger body and a harsher mana cost. In general Sharpshooter should be seen as a combo / lock piece, while the Whirly Girly should just be seen as a tempo piece that happens to also board wipe x/1s. They are comparable though, and can be run instead of, or in addition to each other. (R)(R)(R) is really, really hard to cast. You can get away with running 1, but the moment you start running two mana base needs real concessions to run it. More red sources for instance. This pay off can work in certain meta's but be very careful if you do it.
Cards you should NOT run instead: Lightning Crafter

Skirk Prospector
Skirk Prospector is an unassuming little guy that does way more than he looks like.

1) He's a sacrifice source. This allows you to dodge counters from Umezawa's Jitte, and / or life gain from combat with Batterskull, or Griselbrand. Simply sacrifice a creature after blocks are declared.

2) Prospector produces red mana. This is something that traditional lists actually can have a hard time doing. The power of Wasteland, Rishadan Port, and Cavern of Souls are usually worth the loss in use consistency for Gempalm Incinerator, or perhaps even Tarfire. This can come up in games where you can only use AEther Vial as mana source.

3) He is ramp. At his worst, Wild Cantor casts Goblin Warchief, a very important type of card for our deck, on turn 2. Sometimes he produces a lot of mana. Frankly, he enables the most powerful lines available to the deck with this ability. Sometimes you just get to play "everything" into a powerful, hasty, Goblin Piledriver chain for lethal. This is really good against The Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale allowing you keep more goblins than you have lands in play.

4) Pashalik Mons loves this guy. With both out you gain a very powerful form of board control. The rest of your deck just has a pile of synergy by being able to be sac'd to cause Pashalik to either remove all of your opponents threats, make them unable to attack, or just outright kill the enemy player (through a Moat if you are fancy).

Cards you should NOT run instead: There really is no other comparison here.

Stingscourger
Stingscourger is a typical 1-off (or silver bullet) in the 75, which gives you the flexibility to bounce huge blockers and go for the alpha strike. He is also a popular choice in fields where Dark Depths and Reanimate decks are around, since it can hold off the giant monsters. Even Emrakul, the Aeons Torn isn't protected against this card, as the spaghetti monster will be sent back by an ability, not by a spell. It notably does do well against Exhume because it turns the terrible Echo cost into an upside. Another nice thing about this 'removal' spell is that it usually circumvents counter magic with AEther Vial or Cavern of Souls. However, Stingscourger does have a significant cost. It will frequently be card disadvantage because it is a temporary solution to normal creatures, and is a dead draw in multiple matchups. If you’re not making serious use of the tempo it provides, it is usually a poor card.
If you want a card that actually handles large creatures permanently you are probably looking for Warren Weirding. It is only comparable to Stingscourger in that it is usually meant to handle the big guys, but other than that the cards are quite different in how you manage them during the game.

Goblin Trashmaster
This guy does two things, and he does them well. First, he is a reusable shatter, so one copy of him can often end match-ups like Steel Stompy, or The Antiquities War. This is very good, but beyond that he is maindeckable with zero shame simply because he is a lord. Goblins get +1/+1 is a relevant ability on a body that is not Abrupt Decayable. Goblins are kind of small to start, but +1/+1 dramatically changes most board states. Trashmaster being a 4 cost, and being a lord, puts him in the deck as a pseudo Finisher goblin as well, since he often comes down around the same time frame while boosting the field.

d) The Finisher Goblins

Finisher goblins are the the most impactful creatures the deck can afford to play. These guys usually have an immediate impact on the board and most importantly are must answers from the opponent's point of view due to how fast they tend to end games or accrue advantage. These guys are parity breakers.

You do not need to run them to win a game, and some have eschewed them in certain metas. But Goblin Matron's consistency makes it very tempting to run 1 or more of some of these cards due to their game ending abilities.

https://i.imgur.com/rtprpiy.png

Sling-Gang Lieutenant
Sling-Gang Lieutenant is the new kid on the block, and has added an entire new dimension to our gameplan. Although strictly speaking it’s a worse rate than Siege Gang, four mana for three 1/1 goblins, compared to five mana for a 2/2 and three 1/1s, Sling Gang’s free activation has made it a staple in all RB builds. Most of the time, it effectively creates a situation where # of Goblins >= the opponent’s life total = instant speed victory through almost anything. Sling Gang isn’t even stopped by [cards]Glacial Chasm or [cards]Energy Field because it is life loss, not damage. Sling Gang also has serious utility in combo matchups; Against Storm and Depths, getting yourself to a higher life total whenever required can be game winning because of a potential Tendrils of Agony or getting hit by a 20/20 Marit Lage. It has quickly replaced Siege-Gang as the finisher of choice because of its much more potent closing speed and lower casting cost (which is especially relevant because of Aether Vial). Sling-Gang Lieutenant truly lets the deck be able to end a game on the Aristocrats.

Krenko, Mob Boss
Krenko, Mob Boss is one of the other common finisher goblins for the archetype. His ability to put so many tokens into play is by far, and large, one of the more powerful things you can be doing with a Goblin card. Many goblin pilots run an increased amount of "Haste Lords" to make sure that he can tap the turn he enters the battlefield. A hasty field with Krenko, Mob Boss can end a game in very, very short order. It should be noted that he is one of the best available tools against low removal fair decks like Eldrazi and Aggro Loam.

His biggest downside is his weakness to all sorts of 1 mana answers (Lightning Bolt, Swords to Plowshares, Fatal Push. He does nothing the turn he comes in, unless you have a haste lord out. Therefore those spells can be Time Walk for 1 mana. Since he does not naturally have haste, it's possible he may die before putting any goblin tokens into play. Additionally if you very few, or just Krenko, Mob Boss in play his first activation might not be enough to change the current game in a meaningful way. The last thing to be wary of when running this finisher is his Legendary status. He can be hit by Karakas, and over the course of a larger tournament, probably will be.

His raw power level is pinning the needle to the edge of the meter, and ends games very, very quickly. But he is more vulnerable. And being vulnerable at the cost of 4 mana this turns some people off of using him.

Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker is another Legendary Goblin who's fairly unique ability puts him up as a contender for a Finisher Goblin. Pilots running this finisher are able to boast some of the best card draw available in Legacy as re-abusing the already powerful Goblin Matron and Goblin Ringleader pushes the deck right past cards like Ancestral Visions. Pretty much every goblin that see's play in the deck is worth copying for one reason or another. Multiple Goblin Chieftains push the deck past most blockers, multiple Goblin Lackeys mean more cards put into play for free etc. He is often run alongside Warren Instigator as those builds of the deck tend to be more aggressive and can take the most advantage of the effect. Not to mention his ability with Goblin Settler can cause a total lock-out in some scenarios. He also facilitates a couple of the turn 3 kills available to the deck. He is vaguely resilient to removal if there is any goblin in play worth copying. Thanks to him naturally having haste, it would take 2 pieces of instant speed spot removal to blank him entirely. An important 'trick' for Kiki-Jiki is to use his ability in during a player's end step. After the "beginning of end step" make a copy of a creature and it will stick around until the next "beginning of end step". This way the copy will survive a whole turn. Do it during your own end step to have an extra blocker, or during your opponent's for another attacker.

Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker is rather lackluster on an empty board or one with only tokens. The cost of 2 generic 3 red mana to cast him is nothing to scoff at either, as many lists run Wasteland and Rishadan Port. Since Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker is a Legendary creature he has a built in weakness to Karakas, but his natural haste mitigates this some. And lastly an AEther Vial at 5 tends to be turned off for the remainder of the game.

This finisher generates game winning advantages very quickly, but he is ultimately a 2/2, and doesn't really work when you have low board presence.

Siege-Gang Commander
Siege-Gang Commander was the most commonly seen finisher goblin for the deck. At the cost of 5 mana it's hard to run more than 1 or 2 of him, but he hands down gives the most consistent bang for your buck. He creates an instant board state. An early Goblin Lackey putting this guy into play usually puts your opponent so far behind, even if they deal with it, they've spent so many resources the game tends to fall in your favor. He is one of the best available top decks in the late game as he can put you from a losing board to either parity, or close, immediately. He also facilitates a couple of the turn 3 kills available to the deck. But he is more than that, he is also a re-usable burn spell. The cost of paying 2 mana and a goblin to shock target creature or player is the other powerful effect he presents. This kills numerous X/2's in the format, in addition to figuratively lobbing Goblins over a Moat as a way to finish the game without combat damage. Just like Mogg War Marshal he is also rather "good" against spot removal as killing the Commander leaves you with 3 Goblin tokens. He is one of the best instant board state cards that exist for Goblins.
AEther Vial does very little on 5 other than put this man into play though, and this reason alone is why many players eschew him. Additionally, he's simply not as powerful as some other options. He requires a mana investment to gain full use, and sometimes he's simply 4 chumps.
This card does many of the things the deck already wants to be doing, and he does most of it "alone." He is a solid, albeit expensive, choice.

Honorable Mentions

Some lists run more unorthodox methods to break parity and win though. Just running a high number of Goblin Chieftain or Goblin Trashmaster naturally helps this for instance.

Goblin Chirurgeon appears similar to Skirk Prospector, and is often run in place of him. He's still good at anything that sacrificing a creature is, but with the upside of turning opponents spot removal into Diabolic Edicts instead. He's at his best against damage and destroy based control strategies. Additionally he can sacrifice a goblin to save a non-goblin if that ends up mattering.

Grenzo, Havoc Raiser The most direct comparison that you can make is with a card like Thief of Sanity. He is ultimately an aggressive-bending card advantage engine. The more your deck focusing on going wide, the better he becomes, as he triggers per creature that connects.[i] Exiling and casting your opponent’s spells off the top of their library will have widely varying value. In general, the more good-stuffy the opponent’s deck is, the better Grenzo becomes. Any creatures, planeswalkers, removal spells, or cantrips you can cast with him will net you some potent card advantage. He also has surprising utility against combo decks. You can dig for discard spells against Storm and Reanimator, and potentially find land tutors for your Wasteland or Karakas. There’s also always the chance of exiling a lone win condition and winning on the spot. Goad tends not to matter, though it can be nice when you want to get a big Tarmogoyf or Knight of the Reliquary to swing into you, allowing you to crack back for even more. Beware Flickerwisp effects though!

Earwig Squad runs a double role of being a rather large creature with a good anti-combo / anti-tutor package ability. This guy is usually run as a combo hoser. He is being mentioned here mostly because he tends to take up the slot of a finisher goblin, while still being a solid sideboard choice.

Lightning Crafter is an expensive goblin that has a few facets of use. The obvious ability to be a Lightning Bolt more than once is serious upside for the risk of being a Hill Giant. The second, and far less obvious use is to use the Champion ability to mitigate a board wipe or removal spell in to literally being card / board advantage with a Matron or Ringleader.

Grenzo, Dungeon Warden can accrue a lot of advantages and can be large, but is very mana intensive, and a little inconsistent. He can be played as a small or large creature at your convenience of mana. He has some anti-synergy with Goblin Ringleaders ability. Other than that he does everything Goblins wants to be doing, and fixes nothing the deck can't do. He does make the base gameplan better if you are truly trying to win a meta that is weak to goblins.

Sparksmith is another, tap-for-damage-spell that you can use multiple times. The downsides are basically the same as with Gempalm Incinerator with the addition that your opponent will oftentimes see him coming. The fact that he eats your life points has surprisingly little impact on the game, especially when you consider what you get in return.
Cards you should NOT run instead: Lightning Crafter

III. Matchups & Strategy [I](7:12 AM 12/8/2016)

a) Matchups

In this section I will present my view on a number of relevant MUs as well as some suggestions on how to play them right. I will try to update this regularly, but please keep in mind the date when I last edited the list. Also, this is but one view that is presented here, so please feel free to test the MUs yourself and work out strategies that are different from what I am presenting here.
I am using the following five "ratings" for MUs.
(1) Favorable: Most iterations of Goblins will have good chances of winning against most iterations of the deck in question. Usually you don't need to reserve any SB cards for this MU.
(2) Slightly Favorable: Your chances of winning range from even to good, depending on your version of the deck as well as some SB cards
(3) Even: Generally chances are evenly distributed. Sometimes the outcome of this is MU decided by certain MD or SB cards that you, or your opponents are playing. Skill and experience will be a more relevant factor in these matches.
(4) Slightly Unfavorable: Your list will need some specific tuning to win this MU. SB cards can turn the tides and drag the odds up to 50%. These MUs are usually what you need your SB cards for.
(5) Unfavorable: Most iterations of your opponent’s deck will have good chances of beating yours. In some cases you can dedicate a lot of SB cards to make this MU even, but sometimes it is better to accept that you can't beat every deck.

Grixis Delver – Slightly Favorable
How the matchups works: This is a Daze match up so they want to win fast, and win with you off kilter. A traditional game involves them starting with Delver of Secrets or Dreadhorde Arcanist with a supporting cast of Daze and Wasteland. Delver is consistently answerable, whereas Dreadhorde is very threatening, largely due to flashing back Lightning Bolt and Thoughtseize. If you can answer the Arcanist on curve, you’re likely very ahead because it is their only source of card advantage. They typically then follow up with Gurmag Angler or True-Name Nemesis. Post board you are likely to see 2 copies of Plague Engineer, Abrade, and perhaps a Blue Elemental Blast. The goal here should be to get your opponents creatures down to just 1 of the "phase two" cards mentioned. If that's the case their deck will be forced into a defensive position and it's not particularly good at being control. Doing this will lead to wins via swarm. A Gurmag or True-Name not attacking likely means that you’re winning. [cards]Sling-Gang Lieutenant[cards] will help you win close races, but beware the Engineer, and take pains to avoid it.
Cards that support this strategy: Pseudo wipes, Goblin Cratermaker, Finisher Goblins
Meaningful SB cards: Pyrokinesis Red Elemental Blast Magmatic Sinkhole and possibly Chalice of the Void if you have it.
Red Herrings: Blood Moon is not incredible against the tempo oriented strategies since we generally cast it on time instead of ahead of the curve. Also plays into Blue Elemental Blast.

Miracles – Favorable
How the matchups works: This, just like the original Miracles deck, is a breeze. The scary things to watch out for is a late game Entreat the Angels, a mid-game Back to Basics, or an early game Monastery Mentor. Other than that you can just grind as hard as you like and come out ahead in the long run. Don't over commit and keep socking them for 2-4 a turn. They run various card advantage sources, differing from list to list, but ours puts bodies on board giving us an advantage. Recently, Miracles has adopted Mystic Sanctuary to add fetchable copies of whatever is in the graveyard. Along with the graveyard reliance of Accumulated Knowledge, Relic of Progenitus has begun to look useful against them, though is currently untested. Sanctuary also indicates a lack of Back to Basics. Watch out for SB Supreme Verdict, or more likely a surprise Containment Priest, along with more Vendillion Cliques. The big one though is Back to Basics. Despite our mostly mono red deck, half of your lands in play are probably hit by this, and is an easy way to get got.
Cards that support this strategy: Goblin Matron, Goblin Ringleader, Rishadan Port, Finisher Goblins.
Meaningful SB cards: Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Red Elemental Blast, perhaps 1-2 copies of Relic of Progenitus.
Red Herrings: Just don’t overcommit. Seriously, don’t do it. You win the long game.

4 Color Snow Control – Slightly Favorable
How the matchups works: This deck is the "Jund" of Legacy currently and thrives on the 2-1 advantage. One of the grindiest match-ups in the format, you are beatdown. The deck does not rely on any one piece to be powerful, and is truly difficult to hate out. Winning the match-up usually involves them being mana screwed in some way, hopefully with our help using Waste and Port. The most important cards from them to us are Liliana, the Last Hope and Hymn to Tourach with Kolaghan's Command being cleanup. Porting them off of double black is the number one priority, as Lili and Hymn to Tourach are the cards we fear in the match. The red for Kolaghan's Command is very good, it isn't why we lose.Their goal is to assemble a walker, or Gurmag Angler, and 5 lands. If they can achieve this state, then winning becomes very difficult as their 2-1 engine starts to take over because of Snapcaster Mage rebuying the 2-1's. They usually don't run any form of wipe mainboard, but post board expect 1-3 Toxic Deluge / Marsh Casualties type cards, possibly with a rare Darkblast, and the 2nd or 3rd Liliana. You really just need to keep on chugging. It's very hard to be up a beat, but thankfully they don't run their own Wastelands so you can run out any land you want.
Cards that support this strategy: Goblin Piledriver, Goblin Matron, Goblin Ringleader, Wasteland, Rishadan Port, Volrath's Stronghold
Meaningful SB cards: Oath of Ghouls (wins the match alone, super narrow), Cabal Therapy (good against Hymn to Tourach, and handles threats we can't answer easily on board), Red Elemental Blast[cards] / [cards]Pyroblast, Pyrostatic Pillar, Chalice of the Void
Red Herrings: Relic of Progenitus feels like it should do something, but frankly it just doesn't matter. You are better off drawing any goblin, even Stingscourger. Blood Moon traditionally is good against 3 color decks, but this one actually uses its red and runs multiple basic lands. You are 50/50 to have this be a dead card in the match-up, and it's not particularly a knockout punch, especially since it's coming down on turn 3 instead of faster like most decks than run it. Also any expensive Spells that are good in a grind. They have a lot of discard and usually tag it. The cost of making your top decks better comes at the cost of making openers anemic, it's not necessarily wrong, but respect your curve.

Storm Combo - ANT (Ad Nauseum Tendrils) – Unfavorable
How the matchups works: You can steal games by killing them on turn 3 or 4. However, your lack of disruptive elements usually makes you an easy target. When you evaluate your opening hands you should aim for a kill on turn 3 or 4. Every piece of hate should delay your opponent by at least 1 turn. If it doesn't then don't play it. Accept the idea of being killed on turn 1 or 2 without any interaction. Post board they bring in bounce spells or Abrade effects in order to combat permanent based hate. Your goal changes none, but if you have to choose between lock or clock, lock em.
Cards that support this strategy: Goblin Lackey, Warren Instigator, Goblin Piledriver
Meaningful SB cards: Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Mindbreak Trap, Discard Spells, Chalice of the Void, Amulet of Safekeeping, Thorn of Amethyst, Cabal Therapy, Grafdigger's Cage and less spectacularly Relic of Progenitus.
Red Herrings: Surgical Extraction is 100% playable, but ultimately worse than Grafdigger's Cage, and Relic of Progenitus, here as they can run Threshold cards in addition to Past in Flames. Board it in, but don't keep a hand on it.

Death & Taxes – Favorable
How the matchups works: The worst thing that can happen is that they have an equipment at a moment when you can't deal with it yet. This would be the case when they have Stoneforge Mystic on turn 2 and you can't kill SFM before the equipment comes down. Try to grind them out, make favorable trades (or even one-for-ones). We have a way better draw engine, while they have Recruiter of the Guard + Equipment / Flickerwisp. You do have to respect Flickerwisp interaction with Recruiter of the Guard, as it often generates multiple 3/1 Flying creatures. Other potentially problematic cards in their deck are Mother of Runes and Phyrexian Revoker (which shuts down a range of valuable cards). All of that said, we have the ability to get 2 for 1'd a few of times and still keep chugging, where as they are generally at the mercy of the non-lands they drew only. This match-up really does come down to a skillful grind, and sideboard choices from both players. You will have a hard time if someone has a Kor Firewalker or Absolute Law, and an easier time against Sword of War and Peace as SB cards for instance.
Cards that support this strategy: Goblin Cratermaker, Goblin Trashmaster, and pseudo wipes.
Meaningful SB cards: Shatter affects, Pithing Needle, Pyrokinesis.
Red Herrings: Do not expose your shatter / Pithing Needle effects preemptively unless you are intending to get some major tempo or the game itself out of it. It's okay if they have nothing going on and you don't. You win that topdeck war thanks to natural card advantage draws; just hold it.

Eldrazi Stompy – Favorable
How the matchups works: In this MU your goal is to buy enough time until you can block their way with your hordes. Reality Smasher and equipment stand in the way of that plan. Their major weakness is their mana base. Their best spells cost 4+ mana and demand colorless mana, so any form of mana disruption is effective. Try to read what cards they have in hand. You can read that from the amount of mana they have available and what cards they played last turn. Watch out for some interactions of their spells and lands. A few examples: Eye of Ugin doesn't actually produce mana, but reduces the mana costs. So, no playing Umezawa's Jitte with Eye of Ugin. Make sure that they tap at least 1 colorless mana when casting their spells. Under a Blood Moon they will usually not be able to cast any spell with <> in their mana costs. Over a course of several games you will be favored, as their mana base is shaky and their mulligan decisions are more difficult - their deck is less consistent than yours. It should be noted that games with this deck tend to be lopsided, whether you win or lose.
Cards that support this strategy: AEther Vial, Wasteland, Rishadan Port, Mogg War Marshal, Goblin Cratermaker
Meaningful SB cards: Blood Moon, Pyrokinesis, Shatter Effects
Red Herrings: Kill spells that can't handle a Thought-Knot Seer. Often you can just use your board to handle any non 4 toughness creatures. Damping Sphere Often whiffs on doing anything due to them already having board presence.

Eldrazi Post – Favorable
How the matchups works: This match-up plays out similarly to Eldrazi Stompy, but with less creatures in the interim, and more absolute bombs against us like All is Dust, and Ugin the Spirit Dragon. These are brought into play with the power of Cloudpost and the like. For the most part Wasteland and Rishadan Port are even better than they are against the stompy build, as the payoff they run is more expensive, along with Gobln Cratermaker providing 1 for 1 outs against their best threats. Their end game is better than goblins so you are beatdown in this match-up. Don’t let it go too long. If All is Dust is not in the main it will be boarded in, and possibly Oblivion Stone. You are also likely to see Sorcerous Spyglass post board.
Cards that support this strategy: AEther Vial, Wasteland, Rishadan Port, Mogg War Marshal, Goblin Cratermaker
Meaningful SB cards: Blood Moon, Damping Sphere, Pithing Needle, Shatter Effects
Red Herrings: Pyrokinesis, while this card has text against the Eldrazi Stompy build, it doesn’t have nearly enough targets against the Cloudpost build.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Show & Tell (Sneak Attack / Omniscience) – Slightly Unfavorable
How the matchups works: This is the most popular, and best performing, version of Show & Tell right now. Get a Stingscourger or Goblin Matron in your hand as quickly as possible, as this will effectively shut down the creature half of Show and Tell. They are more likely to get you in Game 1 than normal just Sneak & Show due to the spell based combo portion of their deck, but in turn the deck became a bit clunkier and can fall to itself a bit more often. Post board bring in all of your hate for both archetypes and rely on them having the creature portion, as it's 2/3s of their wins. You should be wary of Kozilek's Return in this match, via Cunning Wish. Take note that it is indeed an instant.
Cards that support this strategy: Stingscourger, Goblin Matron, Mana Acceleration, Goblin Lackey, Warren Instigator, Goblin Piledriver, Rishadan Port, Goblin Cratermaker.
Meaningful SB cards: Everything that works against the non-hybrid versions are good here. Cards that hit both are great. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Damping Sphere, Red Elemental Blast, Demystify Effects, Cabal Therapy, etc. Confusion in the Ranks / Ashen Rider also do the job wonderfully, but are very, very narrow.

Sneak & Show (Sneak Attack / Through the Breach) – Slightly Unfavorable
How the matchups works: Get an Stingscourger or Goblin Matron in your hand as quickly as possible, as this will effectively shut down Show and Tell. The only card really left to care about is Sneak Attack. As with other combo decks, your plan is to kill them as fast as possible. Due to their lack of interaction with your setup (other than a little counter magic) you can usually go all-in. After Game 1 they will bring in some Pyroclasm / Kozilek's Return, and possibly Through the Breach (which work as additional copies of Sneak Attack). Your game plan doesn't change much though, only will you replace your spot removal with some hate cards. Generally speaking you have an easy time with Show and Tell and a poor time with Sneak Attack.
Cards that support this strategy: Stingscourger, Goblin Matron, Chrome Mox, Goblin Lackey, Warren Instigator, Goblin Piledriver, Rishadan Port, Goblin Cratermaker.
Meaningful SB cards: Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Pithing Needle, Red Elemental Blast, Cabal Therapy, extra Stingscourgers matter a lot here. Confusion in the Ranks / Ashen Rider also do the job wonderfully, but are very, very narrow.

Omnitell (Omniscience) – Unfavorable
How the matchups works: This plays out similarly to Storm variants, but slower. You generally don't have a mainboard out to them going off. They still run Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, so you need to respect that card coming down in the first few turns, but ultimately they are trying to get an Omniscience into play to win with Cunning Wish into win cons. They have access to their SB game 1 so be wary of Kozilek's Return or Sudden Shock off of an end of turn Cunning Wish.
Cards that support this strategy: Stingscourger, Goblin Matron, Chrome Mox, Goblin Lackey, Warren Instigator, Goblin Piledriver, Rishadan Port
Meaningful SB cards: Red Elemental Blast, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Damping Sphere, Mindbreak Trap, Demystify Effects, Cabal Therapy. Confusion in the Ranks / Ashen Rider also do the job wonderfully, but are very, very narrow.

Stoneblade – Even
How the matchups works: As with all equipment based deck, you must be able to handle their package of Umezawa's Jitte, and often Sword of Fire and Ice. This IS the reason goblin lists run 1 shatter goblin in their maindeck. The majority of their deck is a control list, so you are favored when the equipment doesn't matter, and a properly built deck should have sufficient answers to the equipment. Remember Skirk Prospector can negate Umezawa's Jitte counters, and life gain from Batterskull. Things get harder when True-Name Nemesis lands, but their deck is rather clunky and will often just give you enough time to race with Goblin Piledriver. Post board they will bring in removal and most notably Toxic Deluge, or Zealous Persecution. Try not to get blown out. Just kill or Pithing Needle the Stoneforge Mystic, or your specific issues, and the rest of the match should just be about True-Name Nemesis. L
Which version to pick: Both versions will do equally well.
Cards that support this strategy: Goblin Cratermaker, Goblin Piledriver, Card Advantage.
Meaningful SB cards: [u]Shatter affects, Pithing Needle, Pyrokinesis, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben (They are ultimately a control deck with fewer to 0 Wastelands.), and possibly Red Elemental Blast for Back to Basics or snagging a TNN.

Aggro Loam – Slightly Favorable
How the matchups works: This match-up is all about Knight of the Reliquary, and Punishing Fire. They will try to stall you out with Abrupt Decay / Assassin's Trophy, Punishing Fire, and a smattering of main board creatures to go with their Green Sun's Zenith package, plus Dark Confidant. Either of the 3 mana Liliana's also makes a strong appearance in this match-up, but is usually not a problem unless it comes down on turn 2 via Mox Diamond. Ultimately this deck is a graveyard deck, and has a much harder time interacting post board. Leave in Stingscourger as the tempo in removing the Knight of the Reliquary is often instrumental.
Cards that support this strategy: Wasteland, Rishadan Port,Stingscourger.
Meaningful SB cards: Grave Hate, Blood Moon, Pithing Needle.

Death's Shadow – Even to Favorable
How the matchups works: This legacy deck runs shock lands to hurt itself in order to be able to play a large Death's Shadow. Thankfully their tempo orientation, and our natural deck design (The Blocking Deck) makes anything other than mainboard Delver of Secrets and sideboard Liliana, the Last Hope the only cards we truly care about. Don't race them, just try to block as much as possible and they will eventually succumb to our better top decks and draw engine. Especially since the alpha strike is often for 4-8 damage due to their self harm. You lose games where you don't get to flood the board. Post board expect Liliana, the Last Hope or Marsh Casualties to come in.
Cards that support this strategy: Mogg War Marshal, most of the rest of the deck too.
Meaningful SB cards: Chalice of the Void

Elves – Slightly Unfavorable
How the matchups works: In game 1 they are clearly favored. On the way of assembling one of their combo kills they can block the board with a bunch of 1/1 creatures and gain value with untaps, mana abilities and bouncing their own creatures (like Elvish Visionary). Their most effective enablers are Wirewood Symbiote, Quirion Ranger, and Heritage Druid – so usually you should kill one of these first. It is very rare that you can slowly build up an advantage that you can ride to victory. The MU tends to come down to whether or not you can wipe their board with clean with Pyrokinesis, Goblin Sharpshooter, or Perish, so your strategy should support finding one of these.
Which version to pick: The Winstigator list is the better choice as it support your plan of finding (and casting) board sweepers better. Also, with Warren Instigator you have a double strike creature that can engage in combat situations more easily.
Cards that support this strategy: Chrome Mox, Warren Instigator, Goblin Cratermaker, Mogg Fanatic (despite it being out of favor).
Meaningful SB cards: Goblin Sharpshooter, Pyrokinesis, Perish, Mindbreak Trap, Pithing Needle, Cabal Therapy, Grafdigger's Cage
Red Herrings: Chalice of the Void (They run main board shatters, and are actually capable of handling this relatively easily by morphing creatures, and using Green Sun's Zenith for a higher than average CMC. If you have it, still bring it in, but don't rely on it for the win.) Also Pithing Needle should probably just name Wirewood Symbiote. It powers everything their deck wants to do, and I've seen them go to some heavy lengths to get the card active again.

Turbo Depths – Unfavorable
How the matchups works: They try to play a Marit Lage via Dark Depths mixed with either Vampire Hexmage, or Thespians' Stage. They have a good amount of acceleration, and tutors, and are able to assemble on turn 2 rather consistently, putting us in a very rough spot. If they go off with Vampire Hexmage: let her effect resolve to remove counters from Dark Depths, and then with the trigger on the stack to make a 20/20, and go ahead and Wasteland it. They will not get the 20/20, and instead lose both cards. Similarly if they go off with Thespians' Stage: let them copy Dark Depths, they will put the original in the yard due to the Legend rule, and then a trigger will go on the stack to make a 20/20, and then you Wasteland it. If they manage to go off your only out is racing (good luck), and Stingscourger. If they have Not of This World, or Crop Rotation, for Sejiri Steppe, there really wasn't anything you could do about it. Additionally they run some mainboard Pithing Needle which is rather bad for both our Wastelands, and our AEther Vials. If you can, Stingscourger could get rid of the problem. This is tough as they can do the combo at the end of your turn, but an AEther Vial on 2 will allow you to interact there. It doesn't help that you really don't want many kill spells in the match, but part of their combo involves a 2/1 first striker that needs to go away. I'd strongly consider Pyrokinesis in this match-up to have a 0 mana, instant speed, way to pop the Vampire at a poor time.
Which version to pick: The WIstigator list is faster, and therefore favored. Rishadan Port is too slow to consistently matter.
Cards that support this strategy: Wasteland, Stingscourger, a shatter effect for Pithing Needle.
Meaningful SB cards: Pithing Needle, Pyrokinesis, Alpine Moon, Blood Moon (these last two still work, but read the Red Herrings)
Red Herrings: Blood Moon is often too slow, and Alpine Moon is fast enough but both succumb to the ruling that Dark Depths enters with 0 counters under them. If either moon is removed at that point then the 20/20 comes down immediately with no extra work.
Additionally there is a slow version of the deck that runs Sylvan Safekeeper, and some Dark Confidants This version is significantly easier to beat for us g1, that padded time is welcome. But post board they bring in Hymn to Tourach and Liliana, the Last Hope, so prepare for a longer Aggro Loam style match post board.

BR Reanimator – Unfavorable
How the matchups works: This surprisingly consistent deck can reanimate on turn 1. In game 1 you can get lucky and have Stingscourger in your opening hand and they didn't reanimate a creature that you can't bounce (Iona#Red or Sphinx of the Steel Wind). However, this scenario will only buy you some time and doesn't mean that you win. For G2 you can bring in all of your graveyard hate and/or combo hate, while they won't get any more dangerous than they already are. Tin Fins is a faster version of the Reanimator deck, but comes at the cost of folding to hate a bit harder. Multiple Stingscourgers are very, very good here.
Cards that support this strategy: Stingscourger, Warren Weirding, Chrome Mox, Goblin Lackey, Warren Instigator, Goblin Piledriver
Meaningful SB cards: any graveyard hate, Cabal Therapy, Chalice of the Void. Graveyard hate that works on their turn 1 is at a premium here, as the deck gets lots of free wins from just going off before you get to do anything. Surgical Extraction and Faerie Macabre being the best available for our deck, as they can come in in other match's. Leyline of the Void is hands down the best way to handle their deck specifically.
Red Herrings: Keeping fast hands without interaction. This deck's average turn to go off is turn 1.5. Your fastest kill is turn 3. Mulligan.

Moon Stompy – Favorable
How the matchups works: This match-up is easy to mis-identify with Mono Red Sneak Attack, figuring this out early is critical, as the match-ups difficulty is on opposite spectrums. They will attempt to lock you out with a turn 1 Chalice of the Void, or T2 Blood Moon. Since that really doesn't affect us G1 you take their lunch money usually. G2 and 3 though they will bring in more interaction. Fiery Confluence and Chandra, Torch of Defiance in tandem can cause problems, but usually you can just bury the deck with Good Ol' Ringleader. They will try to lock you under an Ensnaring Bridge, and then attack under it on their own turn, but thankfully most of your guys are small to begin with. Shatter it and move on. Post board the shatter's become more powerful as they bring in Needle like effects.
Cards that support this strategy: Goblin Ringleader, Shatter Effects, 3/3 bodies.
Meaningful SB cards: Pyrokinesis, Shatter Effects, Pithing Needle for walkers, Finisher Goblins
Red Herrings: You might play too aggressively thinking this is Mono Red Sneak Attack and get hit by Fiery Confluence.

Mono Red Sneak Attack – Unfavorable
How the matchups works: This match-up is easy to mis-identify with Moon Stompy, figuring this out early is critical, as the match-ups difficulty is on opposite spectrums. They will attempt to lock you out with a turn 1 Chalice of the Void, or T2 Blood Moon. At some point, early or late, they will deploy Sneak Attack or Through the Breach and smash you with some non-discriminant fat creature. The only real answers game 1 is a good bit of luck, and perhaps a Vial on 2 for a Stingscourger. Post board we still don't have much,
Cards that support this strategy: Stingscourger
Meaningful SB cards: Pithing Needle, Demystify effects, Containment Priest
Red Herrings: You might play too defensively thinking this is Moon Stompy and get hit by an Emrakul, the Aeons Torn.

Burn – Unfavorable
How the matchups works: This match-up always feels close, but ultimately they just kind of have it due their deck design. With no mainboard ways to gain life or counter spells we are at the mercy of their draw. Awkwardly, heavy creature hands from them are the easiest thing to handle from our perspective, but do the most initial damage. Aggressively chump block, and try to make them do all 20 points with just spells, that's the hardest way for them to win. This does mean it's correct to keep kill spell heavy hands, even if the result is that they played few or no creatures. AEther Vial is critical in this match-up to speed our deck up. Goblins can handle creatures, not spells, so you were likely to lose the game anyway. Be wary of Price of Progress.
Which version to pick: WInstigator is naturally faster, and therefore better at racing.
Cards that support this strategy: AEther Vial, Mogg War Marshal, Kill Spells
Meaningful SB cards: Chalice of the Void, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Kill Spells.

b) Sideboarding

Sideboarding is one of the hardest things to do in competitive magic. Specifically figuring out what to take out is usually harder than figuring out what to bring in. The golden rule here is simple: "Your post board deck should be designed to beat their post board deck." That does mean determining what is important from their side, and counteracting it, all before you've even gone to the event. Knowledge is power here. The more lists you look at, main and side, the more likely you are to be less surprised by a sideboard card from a deck. Step in their shoes, would they board those in? How does it compliment their deck? How does it hurt yours? Do they even need to board anything? What can you do to stop it, combined with their maindeck? For instance Tarmogoyf is a card that has been causing headaches for goblin players since it was legal in the format. Do you intend to Kill it? Ignore it? Perhaps just race it? Whatever the case you need to be able to answer those questions long before you are faced with the problem itself, and that's not even a boarded plan. Imagine, now, that the Tarmogoyf is coupled with Toxic Deluge, or Rough // Tumble. That's a lot of pressure that wasn't there game 1. It is entirely possible you will run into situations where there is no good answer, where racing is the only out. And those tend to be the poor matchups, fast combo being the big one. Beyond this point are a small set of shortcuts to make your life easier when figuring things out.

I tend to cut Goblin Piledriver on against decks that care about creature combat, and sometimes Goblin Lackey on the draw for the same reason. You just won't get in. The exception here is Elves, as trading Lackey with any elf is good.

Try to leave in at least 1 Shatter effect against every fair deck. The reason is actually quite simple, and can be narrowed down to 1 card. Pithing Needle is an easily accessible, potent, piece of interaction pretty much any deck using mana wants to run. This card is usually brought in due to AEther Vial, but hits several cards in our deck beyond that. After that, you effectively gain outs to spicy sideboard tech such as Umezawa's Jitte, or Ensnaring Bridge.

Goblin Matron is one of the few bastions of deck consistency in red. We don't have access to Brainstorm, Ponder, or any other piece of consistency other than Mama Matron herself. Even if your toolbox happens to have the wrong tools in it, it's still going to be better than using your hands. Try to leave these in in every matchup.

AEther Vial is atrocious against decks that contain multiple Pernicious Deeds, or several Maelstrom Pulses. It's a bit counter intuitive, but you will actually hedge on card disadvantage by moving some or all of these out. With Pernicious Deed in particular Goblin Lackey gets a lot worse as well. I can also see shaving 1, maybe 2, against Chalice of the Void decks on the draw. I could also see an argument for shaving 1-2 against Chalice of the Void decks on the draw.

Against combo your deck’s basic gameplan is a wash. They are faster than you and basically intend to ignore you entirely if possible. For this reason the massive draw engine of the deck is no longer relevant. I tend to board out 3 Goblin Ringleaders against these decks. You should try to leave 1 in the deck as a back-up plan, in case things go awry. Goblin Lackey and Goblin Piledriver become far more important in these matchups due to their aggressive effects.


IV. Outside the Box
last update: 19/08/2016

This paragraph will focus on the future of the deck inasmuch that I hope to inspire people to test unconventional card choices and report their results.

a) Already tested, bad card choices
* Fecundity
* Wort, Boggart Auntie (she competes with Krenko, Mob Boss for 4 mana)
* Goblin Guide (doesn't jive with mana denial)
* Brightstone Ritual (better card choices: Mountain)
* Vexing Shusher (deck design change: Cavern of Souls)
* Smoldering Spires (better card choices: any removal spell)
* Soaring Seacliff (better card choices: any removal spell)
* Basilisk Collar (better card choices: any removal spell)
* Boros Charm (better card choices: any removal spell)
* Pestermite, Deceiver Exarch and Intruder Alarm (in combination with Kiki-Jiki
(Reference (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=732700&viewfull=1#post732700))
* Mirror Entity (requires too much investment)
* Contested War Zone (better card choices: Mountain)
* Sensation Gorger (too expensive for inconsistent results)
* Summoning Trap (outdated due to Cavern of Souls)
* Battle Squadron (better card choices: Krenko, Mob Boss)
* Fodder Launch (better card choices: Krenko, Mob Boss)
* Rest in Peace + Helm of Obedience (outdated)
* Root Maze (better card choices: Thalia Heretic Cathar)
* Tuktuk the Explorer (too inconsistent)
* Bloodmark Mentor (too small a body)
* Taurean Mauler (not needed in base gameplan)
* Chaos Warp (too expensive)
* Caller of the Claw (not a goblin)
* Gaea's Cradle (Ancient Tomb is generally better)
* Dark-Dweller's Oracle (too everything intensive)
* Fanatical Firebrand (Mogg Fanatic does more on average)
* Goblin Rabblemaster (downside is too high)
* Subterranean Scout (not enough impact)

b) To Be Tested Cards:

* Volley Veteran (competes with Redcap)
* Cheering Fanatic (very interesting ramp)
* Legion Warboss (just looks solid)
* Vial Smasher the Fierce (proactive out to Grixis Control?)

c) Tested, Niche Potential:
* Ancient Tomb (ramp is ramp)
* Grenzo, Dungeon Warden (does what the deck wants, not what it needs)
* Murderous Redcap (Usually better against Stoneblade, and match's you need to chump quite a bit. Cheaper than Siege-Gang, ETB effect unlike Krenko)


V. Literature

a) Goblin Related
https://thesaltminesite.com/2019/04/02/an-ode-to-mogg-fanatic/”]An (”
Goblins in 2018 by ScatMan (https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com/goblins-in-2018/)
Goblins Match-Up Percentages and performances by Olaf Forkbeard (https://goo.gl/GJS2ZN)
Goblins Match-Up Percentages and performances by GoblinLackey1 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQYcvh7gc7aqVCrDEirQLiopuuOe7Gtxmpjv-ccYuTsqBaxX9OljzHpOJ1NcxMWRLNghrhhdNDiaDzP/pubhtml)
Leaving A Legacy: Goblins Are Great But Haters Gonna Hate (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26662_Leaving-A-Legacy--Goblins-Are-Great-But-Haters-Gonna-Hate.html)
Funeral for a Friend (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27669_Funeral-For-A-Friend.html)
Vial Goblins in Legacy (http://legitmtg.com/vial-goblins-in-legacy/)
Legacy's Allure - Ep. 12, Goblins with Jim Davis (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYbnisCh7pI)
Hot Topics of Vial Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-DTB-Goblins&p=712777&viewfull=1#post712777)

b) [u]Legacy Related
Introduction to Legacy (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/this-week-in-legacy-introduction-to-legacy)
An Introduction to Legacy in the Year 2016 (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/33228_An-Introduction-To-Legacy-In-The-Year-2016.html)
Legacy Lessons: Tempo & The Best Delver Deck (http://www.mtgmintcard.com/articles/writers/philipp-sch%C3%B6negger/legacy-lessons-tempo-the-best-delver-deck)
Sideboarding in Legacy (http://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2017/03/sideboarding-in-legacy/)

c) General Magic Theory
Who's the Beatdown? (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/fundamentals/3692_Whos_The_Beatdown.html)
Synergy Vs. Protect the Queen (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/29310_Synergy-Vs--Protect-The-Queen.html)
Puzzling Improvements (http://www.hareruyamtg.com/article/en/category/detail/44)
Mathemagics: Onslaught Fetchlands - Should You Run Fetch Lands? (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/print.asp?ID=3096)


VII. Final Addendum

You are probably asking yourself at this point: "Wait, they didn't post a completed deck?" That's correct, we did not, and it's intentional. This Primer isn't about netdecking. This primer was meant to educate you on deck construction for the archetype. Each decision and card choice is too important to NOT have thought out before taking to an event. If you can't put something together after reading this Primer, then I have failed on the Primer's design and philosophy.

And with that, thanks for reading the primer. Most of the work for this primer came from Gobolord; I am merely holding the torch. During the near entirety of the thread held by Gobolord the talk was civil, useful, and most of all engaging, which I find incredibly rare in a forum. Thanks for being reasonable, everyone.

And a very special thanks to GoblinLackey1, for adding so much to the community and helping me with updates on this primer. (You can find him on our Discord with the same name, or on his Twitter page found here. (https://twitter.com/goblinlackey1))

(And once again, don't forget about our Discord server! (https://discordapp.com/invite/2jd7WBf))

[GoboLord]

Hello fellow Warchiefs,

as you can see Olaf is now in charge of the opening post. Reason being that I am lacking the time to keep the opening post updated. I found Olaf to be the most suitable person to take over, because he has the necessary experience with the deck as well good writing skills. So I asked him directly if he wanted to do some extra work for all of us and I am glad that he willingly accepted.
We tried to find a solution that wouldn't include moving the old thread into the archive, but unfortunately there was no other way than for Olaf to set up a new thread, taking our original opening post as a basis. You will notice that Olaf already implemented some long overdue improvements. Huge THANK YOU for that.

I'm looking forward to continuing our discussions in this new, yet familiar environment.

-GL

[RobNC]

Looks great! It's been a while since I read the last primer but this one read very clearly.

Two items I noticed:

-I believe with the Matron trigger you mean that it is not obligatory, as it is a "may" ability.

-Can Piledriver's trigger actually be Stifled, since it is pro-blue?

[dissy]

Hey Olaf what a primer!! Verry informative. You forgot one of the most important reason to play goblins. It is a blast to play!:laugh:

[Chatto]

My god... End of an era.

@ Gobolord: HUGE thank you for all you've done. I hope to see you somewhere at a tournament. If you ever down in Rotterdam, let me know :-)

@ Olaf: thank you for taking over and maintaining the OP. It's good that one of us takes the time.

Great looking OP, lads. Feels familiar too :-)

[GoboLord]

Great looking OP, lads. Feels familiar too :-)
Thats probably because it is a copy of the old one with some modifications (see Updates notes). ;-)

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Thats probably because it is a copy of the old one with some modifications (see Updates notes). ;-)

Yea, it's currently mostly copypasta. I will update it in more detail Monday.

[LeoCop 90]

Thanks for everything, Gobolord, i feel nostalgic now as i remember the first time i visited this forum years ago and i learnt how to play goblins well reading your primer. I hope you will continue to be among us in the future because your knowledge of this deck is invaluable and you're a very nice person.

And, of course, i'm glad that Olaf will keep the primer up to date and i'm sure he is the right one for this job.

[crowe_1]

Good update. Awesome how this deck is still alive and kicking, despite supposedly being dragged off to be put down depending who you ask.

Couple of things I noticed that might be relevant:
- There are no sample decklists in the opening post. Might be alright to give a sample Classic list and a sample WINstigator. I realize there are links to them at the bottom so this might be just my own anal-retentiveness shining through.
- I feel Gurmag Angler could be mentioned in the Grixis section since it's a significant roadblock in my experience.
- Many Show decks have moved away from Sneak/Show into the hybrid Omni-Sneak list. Curious about your thoughts on that matchup, as it may be more relevant than straight Sneak n Show moving forward. Seems much more problematic since Stingscourger doesn't remove Omniscience, perhaps necessitating Red Blasts from the board?

Very much appreciate the work you guys have put into this. It is very helpful.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Good update. Awesome how this deck is still alive and kicking, despite supposedly being dragged off to be put down depending who you ask.

Couple of things I noticed that might be relevant:
- There are no sample decklists in the opening post. Might be alright to give a sample Classic list and a sample WINstigator. I realize there are links to them at the bottom so this might be just my own anal-retentiveness shining through.
- I feel Gurmag Angler could be mentioned in the Grixis section since it's a significant roadblock in my experience.
- Many Show decks have moved away from Sneak/Show into the hybrid Omni-Sneak list. Curious about your thoughts on that matchup, as it may be more relevant than straight Sneak n Show moving forward. Seems much more problematic since Stingscourger doesn't remove Omniscience, perhaps necessitating Red Blasts from the board?

Very much appreciate the work you guys have put into this. It is very helpful.

Keep comments like this coming. Come Monday I can do a big update.

[1GoblinLackey]

Great to see an update to the rather venerable primer on the original thread! Looking forward to brewing up some new variations of the deck to fit the modern legacy meta. Also looking forward to your update on Monday, Olaf!

Has anyone been testing Grenzo, Havoc Raiser yet? I'm been trying him out as a 2of so far, and he's been pretty decent in the fair matchups. My best hits so far have been against Nic Fit. Hit with 4 krenko tokens with a bunch of mana open (thanks to 2 veteran explorers dying earlier), cast siege rhino, cabal therapy, and an abrupt decay all at once, while also exiling my opp's only real out (toxic deluge). Therapied away the pernicious deed in his hand too, though pithing needle was already naming it. I do have a rules question regarding his wording though. Since it is "cast", can you not use an ancestral vision hit off it a grenzo trigger? Seems very relevant against shardless.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Great to see an update to the rather venerable primer on the original thread! Looking forward to brewing up some new variations of the deck to fit the modern legacy meta. Also looking forward to your update on Monday, Olaf!

Has anyone been testing Grenzo, Havoc Raiser yet? I'm been trying him out as a 2of so far, and he's been pretty decent in the fair matchups. My best hits so far have been against Nic Fit. Hit with 4 krenko tokens with a bunch of mana open (thanks to 2 veteran explorers dying earlier), cast siege rhino, cabal therapy, and an abrupt decay all at once, while also exiling my opp's only real out (toxic deluge). Therapied away the pernicious deed in his hand too, though pithing needle was already naming it. I do have a rules question regarding his wording though. Since it is "cast", can you not use an ancestral vision hit off it a grenzo trigger? Seems very relevant against shardless.

I'm not so sure I want him. He takes 2 red mana to cast, which is already pretty rough in this deck, and his two abilities only work when you are ahead. If I'm hitting my opponent it means 1 of 2 things.

1) I'm either at the point where I'm willing to lose board state to a Goyf / Gurmag, etc, and therefor don't need the Goad.

2) Or I'm hitting an empty board where Warren Instigator, Goblin Piledriver, and Goblin Wardriver all do more at this stage. That said, I don't want to run Wardriver.

I just can't see him being what the deck wants or needs.


---



Casting the exiled card follows the normal rules for casting that card. You must pay its costs, and you must follow all applicable timing rules. For example, if you exile a creature card this way, you must wait until your main phase to cast it.

You would not be able to cast Ancestral Visions off of his ability, as it is not castable for it's casting cost.

---


Good update. Awesome how this deck is still alive and kicking, despite supposedly being dragged off to be put down depending who you ask.
- Many Show decks have moved away from Sneak/Show into the hybrid Omni-Sneak list. Curious about your thoughts on that matchup, as it may be more relevant than straight Sneak n Show moving forward. Seems much more problematic since Stingscourger doesn't remove Omniscience, perhaps necessitating Red Blasts from the board

Honestly, Omnitell is pretty similar to Storm in how bad it is for us. Back when Omnitell was 7% of the meta I ran Confusion in the Ranks and Ashen Rider, and they were narrow, but solid answers. The closer you get to less specific hate the harder the match-up becomes. Obviously that's pretty bad since it's combo. An Enter the Battlefield trigger off of any goblin from Show and Tell + Krosan Grip / Tear / Red Elemental Blast would be the easiest way to fit it into your board without ruining your SB plan against other people. Additionally all of the playable hate bears are good here (Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Ethersworn Canonist, and Spirit of the Labyrinth). But, honestly, don't sweat it that much. Have a plan, practice it, and let the people around you keep the deck down. You may not have Force of Will, but everyone else does.

The hybrid version is less rough and Omnitell itself, but doesn't change how you board very much.

[GoboLord]

The best SB card you can have against OmniShow (the non-hybrid version) is Trinisphere as it usually delays their combo by 2 turns (unless they have 6 mana, or they put Emrakul into play off S&T). I actually think that the hybrid version is harder to deal with (as the specific hate is not the same for both types) although you can gain a lot of win%s from playing a Winstigator list. In this MU you are as much of a combo deck as they are - unfortunately their combo is a little more resillient.

[slave]

Whats the thoughts on the new legend in C16 - Vial Smasher the Fierce ?

The random nature of the damage isn't relevant, up to 5 damage to the dome until it eats removal is relevant, considering you could Vial this in and cast whatever else after that. Any instants on our opponents turn mean damage to the dome too.
I'm not saying this card is amazing or anything, but I think I'm going to run it and see how it plays out, given that it doesn't matter if blue counters every card I play with Vial Smasher in play, damage still hits them.

Anyone else thinking about this card?

[crowe_1]

The best SB card you can have against OmniShow (the non-hybrid version) is Trinisphere as it usually delays their combo by 2 turns (unless they have 6 mana, or they put Emrakul into play off S&T). I actually think that the hybrid version is harder to deal with (as the specific hate is not the same for both types) although you can gain a lot of win%s from playing a Winstigator list. In this MU you are as much of a combo deck as they are - unfortunately their combo is a little more resillient.

I also find the hybrid version harder to deal with, as Omniscience demands a completely different angle of response if it hits the table. I'm on mono-red WINstigator, and my current approach is to delay Show and Tell long enough to beat them down. My board contains a full four Thorns as it doesn't die to the creature hate the opponent is going to bring in, and it can hit the board first turn with Chrome Mox. Also have a Bridge, two P Needles and three REB/Pyros. When Sneak n Show proper was top dog, you could Needle Sneak Attack and then use their Show and Tell against them to pop Matron/Stingscourger. Not so anymore; if they drop Omniscience off Show and Tell, you're usually toast.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Whats the thoughts on the new legend in C16 - Vial Smasher the Fierce ?

The random nature of the damage isn't relevant, up to 5 damage to the dome until it eats removal is relevant, considering you could Vial this in and cast whatever else after that. Any instants on our opponents turn mean damage to the dome too.
I'm not saying this card is amazing or anything, but I think I'm going to run it and see how it plays out, given that it doesn't matter if blue counters every card I play with Vial Smasher in play, damage still hits them.

Anyone else thinking about this card?

The way I've been viewing it has been similar to Piledriver. It generates pressure by sitting there, making opponents respect it. He's at his best when you are turning the corner. He is better at chip shotting than otherwise. BUT I wouldn't run a 3 mana Piledriver.

Anyone have a different view?

[Quackers]

The way I've been viewing it has been similar to Piledriver. It generates pressure by sitting there, making opponents respect it. He's at his best when you are turning the corner. He is better at chip shotting than otherwise. BUT I wouldn't run a 3 mana Piledriver.

Anyone have a different view?

I agree, Vial Smasher is much like Piledriver. I'm going to be cutting down to 0-1 piledriver to place 2 Vial Smashers in a more removal heavy build to see how I like going as much on the long grindy control game plan as I can. Personally, it is how I like to play goblins more than trying to make lackey connect a higher percentage of the time.

[Stevestamopz]

The way I've been viewing it has been similar to Piledriver. It generates pressure by sitting there, making opponents respect it. He's at his best when you are turning the corner. He is better at chip shotting than otherwise. BUT I wouldn't run a 3 mana Piledriver.

Anyone have a different view?

IMO Driver is best when there are 3 in your hand with a Warchief out on the field. Your opponent does something silly like tap out and attack with everything but one thing and then you get em on the swing back. That to me is the turning the corner.

Of course this all falls to pieces because DRS is capable of both draining off of that one land and of making the 2nd mana to cast a Decay on your Warchief so that you don't get to turn the corner. Fuck, reality is a wet rag.

[jrw1985]

The way I've been viewing it has been similar to Piledriver. It generates pressure by sitting there, making opponents respect it. He's at his best when you are turning the corner. He is better at chip shotting than otherwise. BUT I wouldn't run a 3 mana Piledriver.

Anyone have a different view?

I disagree. Vial smasher is nothing like Piledriver. In fact, Vial Smasher is in many ways the polar opposite of Piledriver. Piledriver lets you win quickly when you have a positional advantage in combat. Vial Smasher lets you win through board parity. In other words, Piledriver is a card you really want when you can attack aggressively because it can either force a trade or clock your opponent. Vial Smasher is a card you want when you CANNOT force a trade or clock an opponent. Piledriver helps you when you can attack profitably. Vial Smasher helps you when you cannot attack profitably.

Vial Smasher has a cool ability but I don't think he'll really make an impact and here's why: 1) Most Importantly, he is too narrow. He doesn't help you much when you're ahead and just need to kill your opponent before they kill you. He only really helps when neither you nor your opponent can get the upper hand in combat, and he then lets you win through burn rather than combat. A card like Piledriver is much more efficient in that roll. 2) Black splash. 3) No multiples. If you could play multiple Vial Smashers that would be ridiculous and overpowered. Only being able to play one at a time isn't powerful enough, especially since we're not cast FoW on our opponent's turn.

Vial Smasher is another goblin that's only good conditionally. Much like Piledriver sucks on defense, Vial Smasher ain't great on offense. If they had given him a second ability that mattered he could be really decent. As it is there are too many matchups where he just doesn't make an impact.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

IMO Driver is best when there are 3 in your hand with a Warchief out on the field. Your opponent does something silly like tap out and attack with everything but one thing and then you get em on the swing back. That to me is the turning the corner.

Of course this all falls to pieces because DRS is capable of both draining off of that one land and of making the 2nd mana to cast a Decay on your Warchief so that you don't get to turn the corner. [redacted], reality is a wet rag.

Well, every goblin in the deck is better with a haste lord out. In those scenarios he's eating an Abrupt Decay. I'm way happier to lose a Piledriver to an Abrupt Decay than I am a Warchief or Vial. If you view the deck as a Midrange deck as I do then Piledriver is literally the card for ending games. Losing your best attacker is not losing the game. You can just keep Matroning and Ringleadering until they die to the remaining garbage. Similar to how Shardless's win con is Goyf. They often win with just a 1/1 Flyer and a 2/2 after the dust settles and the kill spells flew.

---


I disagree. Vial smasher is nothing like Piledriver. In fact, Vial Smasher is in many ways the polar opposite of Piledriver. Piledriver lets you win quickly when you have a positional advantage in combat. Vial Smasher lets you win through board parity. In other words, Piledriver is a card you really want when you can attack aggressively because it can either force a trade or clock your opponent. Vial Smasher is a card you want when you CANNOT force a trade or clock an opponent. Piledriver helps you when you can attack profitably. Vial Smasher helps you when you cannot attack profitably.

Vial Smasher has a cool ability but I don't think he'll really make an impact and here's why: 1) Most Importantly, he is too narrow. He doesn't help you much when you're ahead and just need to kill your opponent before they kill you. He only really helps when neither you nor your opponent can get the upper hand in combat, and he then lets you win through burn rather than combat. A card like Piledriver is much more efficient in that roll. 2) Black splash. 3) No multiples. If you could play multiple Vial Smashers that would be ridiculous and overpowered. Only being able to play one at a time isn't powerful enough, especially since we're not cast FoW on our opponent's turn.

Vial Smasher is another goblin that's only good conditionally. Much like Piledriver sucks on defense, Vial Smasher ain't great on offense. If they had given him a second ability that mattered he could be really decent. As it is there are too many matchups where he just doesn't make an impact.

An interesting take on the card. When I draw a Piledriver on a stalled board, I become noticeably closer to breaking through my opponents defenses, if not able the next time he could swing. In his own way Piledriver helps break parity by forcing chumps, but I see what you are saying.

Ultimately I agree that the card is not really for the deck, especially at 3 mana, though for somewhat different reasons.

[1GoblinLackey]

Really glad to see the matchup updates; wonderful job Olaf! I was always tilted by the old one saying that Shardless is an even matchup (I have never felt that).
After going through the thread again, I have a couple of questions.

1. On the topic of maindeck pyrokinesis; why is it not done more often? (basically, talk me out of it?) It's extremely useful as a 2-of in many matchups, with the only downside I see is making ringleader marginally worse. However, this has led me to have only 1 maindeck gempalm (1-2 more in the side) . I feel a little uncomfortable with this, and was curious if anyone else thinks having more than 1 gempalm is a must. My overall removal suite is 2 Pyro, 2 Tarfire, 1 Gempalm, 1 Sharpshooter. I'd be curious about swapping a pyro for a gempalm, but perhaps having a 1-of pyro just isn't impactful by itself (1 pyrokinesis alone isn't gonna beat Elves).

2. I was looking back on the archived thread (around page 307-8 or so) and so that Gobolord had compiled some very impressive data about deckbuilding that lead to successful decks. Some interesting things I've noticed is the high boost to win percentage to running 4x Mogg War Marshal, along with 4x gempalm. I'm curious if an "statistically ideal" build of Goblins was ever built out of that dataset. I imagine it's somewhat outdated at this point, but perhaps still relevant! Apologies if it was done and posted in the archived thread, I must have just missed it.

3. Is Thalia a trap? Based on the matchup section, she doesn't seem to work in many of the matchups that she "should" be good in. I can understand if SBing her just for storm and reanimator though.

Thanks for the new content!

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Really glad to see the matchup updates; wonderful job Olaf! I was always tilted by the old one saying that Shardless is an even matchup (I have never felt that).
After going through the thread again, I have a couple of questions.

1. On the topic of maindeck pyrokinesis; why is it not done more often? (basically, talk me out of it?) It's extremely useful as a 2-of in many matchups, with the only downside I see is making ringleader marginally worse. However, this has led me to have only 1 maindeck gempalm (1-2 more in the side) . I feel a little uncomfortable with this, and was curious if anyone else thinks having more than 1 gempalm is a must. My overall removal suite is 2 Pyro, 2 Tarfire, 1 Gempalm, 1 Sharpshooter. I'd be curious about swapping a pyro for a gempalm, but perhaps having a 1-of pyro just isn't impactful by itself (1 pyrokinesis alone isn't gonna beat Elves).

2. I was looking back on the archived thread (around page 307-8 or so) and so that Gobolord had compiled some very impressive data about deckbuilding that lead to successful decks. Some interesting things I've noticed is the high boost to win percentage to running 4x Mogg War Marshal, along with 4x gempalm. I'm curious if an "statistically ideal" build of Goblins was ever built out of that dataset. I imagine it's somewhat outdated at this point, but perhaps still relevant! Apologies if it was done and posted in the archived thread, I must have just missed it.

3. Is Thalia a trap? Based on the matchup section, she doesn't seem to work in many of the matchups that she "should" be good in. I can understand if SBing her just for storm and reanimator though.

Thanks for the new content!

1. I don't want to talk you out of it. I'm running two in my maindeck right now. In this meta we have to deal with Young Pyromancer, Monastery Mentor, Thought-Knot Seer, and who knows what else. The fact that this card is good against midrange, and small creature's means that this card is currently good in the meta. The reason the card is not generally run in the maindeck on the average is quite simple. It's clunky in the opener. A skilled opponent might not run out all of their threats into your Pyrokinesis, meaning at some point, and it will happen, you will get 2 for 1'd by your own card. Games where you need to kill just a Deathrite Shaman, or just a Stoneforge Mystic hurt a lot. On the reverse side though, the deck gains an out to a lot of situations, in addition to freeing up board space.

2. I think those days are behind us. With creature efficiency only going up with each release, the days where we can afford to wait "another turn" are falling away fast. In Davis's article titled "Funeral For A Friend" (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27669_Funeral-For-A-Friend.html), he mentions how Tarfire is becoming a necessity, and I couldn't agree more. A way to deal with early creatures who present a ton of pressure is required. Mix that with the fact that each silver bullet you run in the main requires a cut from somewhere, and you get to where we are today. I really do want to run more Mogg War Marshals in my own lists (I tend to run 2), but cutting a singleton of my toolbox lowers percentages in match-ups where they are relevant by quite a bit, even if it's still in the board.

3. Thalia is not a trap, I was just being realistic. She is hands down the best Legacy hate bear ever printed. In every spell based combo match, I want nothing more than for her to be in play at every moment. Is there more specific hate for the combo deck you are playing against? Probably, is there one as versatile and effective as Thalia? The next closest for our deck is probably Spirit of the Labyrinth, and I'd argue that gal is a league below (She is good, just not as good). I was just trying to let people know that she isn't for your fair match-ups. Your deck is already plenty good in those. Gobs have jobs, but they can't chump a Tendril's kill, Grindstone Activation, lifelinking Bargains, or even 7 Lightning Bolts. Leave fighting spell based aggro for the professionals. If I ever switch decks, it will be to D&T, and it is specifically because of Thalia.

Edit:
To be extra clear I tend to board her in against the following: Miracles, Mud Stax (Tentatively, still learning this match), Dredge, Manaless Dredge, Infect, ANT, Reanimator, Tin Fins, Cloudpost (on the play only), Enchantress, Stoneblade, Burn, Omnitell, High Tide, Sneak & Show, Mono Red Sneak Attack, Belcher, Landstill, Painter, and Turbo Depths. I even pulled that from my database of recent games I have played.

You may have noticed that only a few of those are fair decks.

[Emrakul503]

Happy to see some new life in this archetype! @GoboLord, thanks for everything! @Olaf, looking forward to seeing what comes of this!

So I am playing a pretty stock list tomorrow (3x Tarfire in the main, because I was told to in my current meta, and a Plateau).

My SB is a little wonky, but my meta is equally wonky. There is a good amount of Delver and DnT, but also some Enchantress, Zombardment, Omnitell, Nic Fit, assorted jank, etc.

Here is what we have:

2x OG Thalia
4x Spirit of the Lab
3x Relic of Progenitus
2x Pyrokinesis
1x Wear//Tear
2x Red Elemental Blast
1x Armageddon

Not really sure what I am doing, but I don't like losing to combo if I can help it. Thoughts, comments, concerns are all appreciated!

[1GoblinLackey]

1. I don't want to talk you out of it. I'm running two in my maindeck right now. In this meta we have to deal with Young Pyromancer, Monastery Mentor, Thought-Knot Seer, and who knows what else. The fact that this card is good against midrange, and small creature's means that this card is currently good in the meta. The reason the card is not generally run in the maindeck on the average is quite simple. It's clunky in the opener. A skilled opponent might not run out all of their threats into your Pyrokinesis, meaning at some point, and it will happen, you will get 2 for 1'd by your own card. Games where you need to kill just a Deathrite Shaman, or just a Stoneforge Mystic hurt a lot. On the reverse side though, the deck gains an out to a lot of situations, in addition to freeing up board space.

2. I think those days are behind us. With creature efficiency only going up with each release, the days where we can afford to wait "another turn" are falling away fast. In Davis's article titled "Funeral For A Friend" (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27669_Funeral-For-A-Friend.html), he mentions how Tarfire is becoming a necessity, and I couldn't agree more. A way to deal with early creatures who present a ton of pressure is required. Mix that with the fact that each silver bullet you run in the main requires a cut from somewhere, and you get to where we are today. I really do want to run more Mogg War Marshals in my own lists (I tend to run 2), but cutting a singleton of my toolbox lowers percentages in match-ups where they are relevant by quite a bit, even if it's still in the board.

3. Thalia is not a trap, I was just being realistic. She is hands down the best Legacy hate bear ever printed. In every spell based combo match, I want nothing more than for her to be in play at every moment. Is there more specific hate for the combo deck you are playing against? Probably, is there one as versatile and effective as Thalia? The next closest for our deck is probably Spirit of the Labyrinth, and I'd argue that gal is a league below (She is good, just not as good). I was just trying to let people know that she isn't for your fair match-ups. Your deck is already plenty good in those. Gobs have jobs, but they can't chump a Tendril's kill, Grindstone Activation, lifelinking Bargains, or even 7 Lightning Bolts. Leave fighting spell based aggro for the professionals. If I ever switch decks, it will be to D&T, and it is specifically because of Thalia.

Edit:
To be extra clear I tend to board her in against the following: Miracles, Mud Stax (Tentatively, still learning this match), Dredge, Manaless Dredge, Infect, ANT, Reanimator, Tin Fins, Cloudpost (on the play only), Enchantress, Stoneblade, Burn, Omnitell, High Tide, Sneak & Show, Mono Red Sneak Attack, Belcher, Landstill, Painter, and Turbo Depths. I even pulled that from my database of recent games I have played.

You may have noticed that only a few of those are fair decks.

Fair enough on the Pyrokinesis! I was more just looking to see if anyone else had an opposing view and wanted to give it. I personally think it's one of the reasons to play the deck in some metas (like mine).

On Thalia, I think I overstated my question. Thalia is unquestionably amazing (hence why D&T exists). I just thought you were going against the grain a bit saying that she isn't particularly good against other spell-heavy fair decks, such as delver. I've heard people say that Thalia is decent to bring in against delver, but you make good points that it makes the mana significantly shakier against other wastelands.

On the subject of manabases, what do people generally think is the best splash right now? I'm currently mono red, and in my exceptionally fair meta I think that's fine. If combo was more prevalent, I like the black splash over others because Earwig squad can do some serious work, and access to cards like cabal therapy/thoughtseize seems like a nice bonus. White seems good for the aforementioned Thalia, but what else does white give you? Rest in Piece, sure, but that base can be reasonable covered by Relic of Progenitus. Nothing else springs to mind except other hatebears? Seems kinda meh. The black lets you be a lot more proactive with your hate, which seems good in the matchups that you need the hate the most.

[Fourbirr]

1GoblinLackey

<...>

1. On the topic of maindeck pyrokinesis; why is it not done more often? (basically, talk me out of it?) It's extremely useful as a 2-of in many matchups, with the only downside I see is making ringleader marginally worse. However, this has led me to have only 1 maindeck gempalm (1-2 more in the side) . I feel a little uncomfortable with this, and was curious if anyone else thinks having more than 1 gempalm is a must. My overall removal suite is 2 Pyro, 2 Tarfire, 1 Gempalm, 1 Sharpshooter. I'd be curious about swapping a pyro for a gempalm, but perhaps having a 1-of pyro just isn't impactful by itself (1 pyrokinesis alone isn't gonna beat Elves).

2. I was looking back on the archived thread (around page 307-8 or so) and so that Gobolord had compiled some very impressive data about deckbuilding that lead to successful decks. Some interesting things I've noticed is the high boost to win percentage to running 4x Mogg War Marshal, along with 4x gempalm. I'm curious if an "statistically ideal" build of Goblins was ever built out of that dataset. I imagine it's somewhat outdated at this point, but perhaps still relevant! Apologies if it was done and posted in the archived thread, I must have just missed it.

3. Is Thalia a trap? Based on the matchup section, she doesn't seem to work in many of the matchups that she "should" be good in. I can understand if SBing her just for storm and reanimator though.

Thanks for the new content!



1. Based on Olaf advice, I tried 2 Pyrokinesis main deck over 2 tarfires instead of 4 and it was pretty good. It cleans a lot of delvers or DRS and open the path to the tribe. Most of the time, my opponents were not expecting that and it bothers their plan. I must admit that getting rid of a goblin hurts a lot and the choice is really hard to make. But Pyrokinesis helps so much to stabilize the board that I can't complain much. Especially on a 4/5 Tarmogoyf, becoming a 3/4 thanks to Relic of Progenitus ability :smile:

2. 4x Mogg War Marshall and 4x Gempalm Incinerator would be so good. Sadly, these slots costs a lot and I wouldn't know what to cut in the flexible slots. Based on my latest experiences in tournaments (BOM Eternal Week-end, local tournaments and FNM mainly), it happens that Mogg War Marshall is MVP in most match-ups. It's three goblins in 1, it enhances the board presence, it gives gas to Gempalm, helps to chump block Tarmo/Gurmag/Batterskull/Eldrazis and the likes, and makes the party bigger for Piledriver. Still based on these small experience, I must tell that MWM helps me win more than Piledriver. I can count the times where Piledriver can attack with his buddies or stay on the board more than 1 turn. So, I decided to cut 2 Piledrivers to put 1 more MWM and 1 more Gempalm. The probability is low that a MWM gets bolted or sworded, unlike Piledriver. I feel that Gempalm is better with 3 MWM. Let's see if it helps.

3. Nothing to add. Thalia is awesome!

I would like to add that Olaf runs 1 Stingscourger main deck and 2 in the side. Actually, these 2 Stingscourgers help a lot. They make a lot of match-ups more favorable post side and the you can really feel the difference. I can only recommend other goblins fellows to test them, because it gives a nice feeling of being more prepared when Gurmag, a second Tarmo or an Endbringer come.

Goblins deck techs aside, thanks to Gobolord for his tremendous amount of work during the last past years. I'm glad that Olaf continue the thread and hope he will lead the tribe to the throne again.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

On the subject of manabases, what do people generally think is the best splash right now? I'm currently mono red, and in my exceptionally fair meta I think that's fine. If combo was more prevalent, I like the black splash over others because Earwig squad can do some serious work, and access to cards like cabal therapy/thoughtseize seems like a nice bonus. White seems good for the aforementioned Thalia, but what else does white give you? Rest in Piece, sure, but that base can be reasonable covered by Relic of Progenitus. Nothing else springs to mind except other hate bears? Seems kinda meh. The black lets you be a lot more proactive with your hate, which seems good in the matchups that you need the hate the most.

Depends on what you are doing with it. I'm using the green splash in the main deck only for Tin Street Hooligan, because I like me some Goblin Piker. My White splash is exclusively for SB Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, and if I feel like it Wear // Tear, Containment Priest, and Rest in Peace. I should note that I wouldn't run Rest in Peace without two Plateau in my main, because I happen to want it in some matches where Wasteland is prevalent. When people mention the black splash something a bit more extreme happens, often it's because of a main board card (Earwig Squad, Cabal Therapy, or Frogtosser Banneret) that you want to cast often, and so you tutor up Badlands a lot sooner, exposing yourself to Wasteland sooner / more often. And again, to go into the same detail as Rest in Peace I wouldn't run Perish in the board for the same reasoning. I want to make sure I can cast my spells. Consistency wins more games than raw power (I.E. Belcher and Storm).

So that rant aside. The Black mainboard splash is good. The White SB splash is my pick for best actual splash, because of Thalia herself. I'm running the green splash exclusively for a better curve in Tin Street Hooligan, and I'd do it in the black splash as well, going Jund. The only time I actually prefer Tuktuk Scrapper is in Winstigator lists, that can abuse him with extra ETBs and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.

As a funny aside: I actually sleeved up 1 Goblin Piker for my local casual events once, for the looks. Great stuff.


I would like to add that Olaf runs 1 Stingscourger main deck and 2 in the side. Actually, these 2 Stingscourgers help a lot. They make a lot of match-ups more favorable post side and the you can really feel the difference. I can only recommend other goblins fellows to test them, because it gives a nice feeling of being more prepared when Gurmag, a second Tarmo or an Endbringer come.

I'm at 1MB, 1SB right now. When we spoke Reanimator was very popular in my area. With the uptick in Omnitell, and hybrid friends, I dropped one. I do think 2 is the number to have at this exact moment, as the first one against Reanimator never seems to be enough.

Check my signature. Goblins 30 is my current build.

[1GoblinLackey]

Question for the forum:

Where do you all tend to do your testing? I check the mtggoldfish metagame breakdown of legacy, and basically have never seen a single goblins deck posted on the list unless it was from a paper tournament. Is there a reason Goblins is so incredibly underrepresented online? With Miracles and Delver being such huge portions of the meta, while storm has fallen out a good bit, I would expect an uptick in Goblins. My only guess is that people don't want to buy into a relatively underpowered deck like Goblins because of the expense of Rishadan port. Is it just some strange anomaly that most Goblins players seem to only be playing on paper (possibly because it's a very old deck that people have just held onto)?

[Fourbirr]

Personally, I only test on paper, but it's not sufficient. Some XMage/Cockatrice testing would be mandatory for a competitive level.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

I have a question for everyone:

Would you pay to see Jim Davis Stream (a League) and Deck Tech Legacy Goblins, while answering questions I bring up?

He is willing to run any deck he has access to for $50, but unfortunately I am unemployed. I can put forth the first 10 when it comes around though, with relative ease. Is there any interest in this? I think his input on what a deck should currently look like, where it ultimately stands, and what it needs to improve would be a huge asset to our community. You could submit questions and we could answered! If you guys are willing to wait it out, I'll do it on my own when I am stable again, but that is months away.

So Is there any interest in this? Please let me know.

(If there is interest I'll talk to Jim, on twitch, about getting us to directly throw him money that way there is no middle man. I've already brought up the idea of him running the deck a while back.)

[Stevestamopz]

I have a question for everyone:

Would you pay to see Jim Davis Stream (a League) and Deck Tech Legacy Goblins, while answering questions I bring up?

He is willing to run any deck he has access to for $50, but unfortunately I am unemployed. I can put forth the first 10 when it comes around though, with relative ease. Is there any interest in this? I think his input on what a deck should currently look like, where it ultimately stands, and what it needs to improve would be a huge asset to our community. You could submit questions and we could answered! If you guys are willing to wait it out, I'll do it on my own when I am stable again, but that is months away.

So Is there any interest in this? Please let me know.

(If there is interest I'll talk to Jim, on twitch, about getting us to directly throw him money that way there is no middle man. I've already brought up the idea of him running the deck a while back.)

I too have thought about this, even if only to watch the master at work. Ultimately it would just be a waste of $50 though. He has played Goblins a couple of times on stream and while it was cool to watch him play, it was sad to watch him get crushed because his opponents were playing 2016 Legacy while he was playing 2006 Legacy.

I was playing BURG Delver on Modo the other day and crushed Goblins 2-0, twice. Delver traded with Lackey and Abrupt Decay hit his Vial. While he tried to build up to 3 mana, I killed him instead. I say this not to brag, but to be realistic. Goblins is just too slow, too much of a dog to it's own variance, loses almost instantly to multiple fatties, sucks against opposing mana-denial and obviously is a literal goldfish against combo. I've just listed the entire format for you.

If you're after his most recent list, this is it:
http://i.imgur.com/Kl20bRJ.png

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Goblins is just too slow, too much of a dog to it's own variance, loses almost instantly to multiple fatties, sucks against opposing mana-denial and obviously is a literal goldfish against combo. I've just listed the entire format for you.

I'll agree with the variance, this is a mulligan heavy deck, and of course the mulligan scenario has been true for the length of the deck's existence, but I just haven't experienced such a degree of losses to what you're mentioning. I only really feel the mana denial actually work when AEther Vial isn't present.

On the fair side of things Goblins loses to pressure mixed with 1 sided wraths. Elesh Norn, Tarmogoyf with Toxic Deluge / Rough, Engineered Plague and a clock, an unstopped Jitte etc. On the macro level it does not lose to fatties at all, and when piloted properly, you make the fatties irrelevant. Similar to how Young Pyromancer is good against Goyf. If I only see Tarmogoyv's out of my opponents deck that is not a terrible place to be. It's only when they have draws that support both the pressure and a psuedo wipe. Yes, I consider 3 Tarmogoyv's an issue, nobody is arguing that, but that is basically true of any deck trying to win fair.

That said if by fatties you meant Reanimator and Show & Tell, I stand by my point that there needs to be an Elesh Norn, Pyroclasm or some effect like that to actually cause the straight loss, short of them having the nuts. Everyone loses to the nut draws, and that's fine, that is kind of the advantage of running that type of deck.

I've just not experienced such issues since 2013, when True-Name Nemesis had just became a card and everyone was hedging -1/-1 effects in their lists.

Lastly I'm just not pulling records that indicate your implied situation. I quickly calculated it out using my own records and I am currently running a 72% win ratio against the expected field, and those are the kind of numbers you need to be pulling to run a tournament, or at least go deep. I'll admit I'd like my sample size to be larger, and I am working on that actively, but everything I see with my own data and research tells me that this is still a good deck. Honestly I think the biggest thing holding the deck back is actually play skill. The deck is simply not an aggro deck, and I see SOOO many lists, and players, running it like it is one.

This information can be found in my Signature under the tab "% Against the Expected Field."

Edit: My question still stands, does anyone care enough? As I said, I will do it myself if there is not enough group interest in a few months.

[dissy]

I'll agree with the variance, this is a mulligan heavy deck, and of course the mulligan scenario has been true for the length of the deck's existence, but I just haven't experienced such a degree of losses to what you're mentioning. I only really feel the mana denial actually work when AEther Vial isn't present.

On the fair side of things Goblins loses to pressure mixed with 1 sided wraths. Elesh Norn, Tarmogoyf with Toxic Deluge / Rough, Engineered Plague and a clock, an unstopped Jitte etc. On the macro level it does not lose to fatties at all, and when piloted properly, you make the fatties irrelevant. Similar to how Young Pyromancer is good against Goyf. If I only see Tarmogoyv's out of my opponents deck that is not a terrible place to be. It's only when they have draws that support both the pressure and a psuedo wipe. Yes, I consider 3 Tarmogoyv's an issue, nobody is arguing that, but that is basically true of any deck trying to win fair.

That said if by fatties you meant Reanimator and Show & Tell, I stand by my point that there needs to be an Elesh Norn, Pyroclasm or some effect like that to actually cause the straight loss, short of them having the nuts. Everyone loses to the nut draws, and that's fine, that is kind of the advantage of running that type of deck.

I've just not experienced such issues since 2013, when True-Name Nemesis had just became a card and everyone was hedging -1/-1 effects in their lists.

Lastly I'm just not pulling records that indicate your implied situation. I quickly calculated it out using my own records and I am currently running a 72% win ratio against the expected field, and those are the kind of numbers you need to be pulling to run a tournament, or at least go deep. I'll admit I'd like my sample size to be larger, and I am working on that actively, but everything I see with my own data and research tells me that this is still a good deck. Honestly I think the biggest thing holding the deck back is actually play skill. The deck is simply not an aggro deck, and I see SOOO many lists, and players, running it like it is one.

This information can be found in my Signature under the tab "% Against the Expected Field."

Edit: My question still stands, does anyone care enough? As I said, I will do it myself if there is not enough group interest in a few months.

Hey Olaf,

I tought about this for a while but i am for sure no fan of his list. I think krenko is way better than SGC. But that personal. Also i dont like Tin Street Hooligan, because of the nonbo with warchief. And besides that i think chalice is better than thalia. And finally i think mindbreaktrap is not the answer vs combo. Combo plays discard spells opposing counterspells and thinks like probe (so they see it comming).

So not Sound arrogant but i think Jim Davis is a verry good player but his list is not suited to beat the meta. And iam not looking forward to a decktech wich havent changed in 10 years looking at the list. If you like his list YouTube for Kenny dungar;) he won scg with goblins years ago.


I would Love to Talk with you about it via Skype. The 10 dollars aint the problem. I just dont think i like his approach and the fact that he stills plays a list of 10 years Old.
Please let me know if you are available to nght arond 20:00 CET or tomorrow arround 19:00 CET

[GoboLord]

I agree with the variance part and want to add that the variance also comes from the MU lottery. The deck is exceptionally strong against a couple of decks (D&T, Miracles, Eldrazi) and just as weak against others (Storm, Elves, Reanimator). Add that to the fact that you need a certain level of understanding for those positive MU to be truly positive (a bad Player will still lose against Miracles more often than a good player) , while the same is not True for your negative MUs (your skill Level doesnt carry much weight against Storm).

On the topic of mana issues vs. Delver decks: I have recently included 3 copies of Carpet of Flowers in my SB and they are (unsprisingly) Good against Delver decks and blue Blade decks. As Steve stated above: if you lose , you are losing while trying to secure your manabase. It's not uncommon to watch your lifepoints drop to 0 while you are still holding onto that Ringleader in your hand.

[Stevestamopz]

Edit: My question still stands, does anyone care enough? As I said, I will do it myself if there is not enough group interest in a few months.

Put me in for 10 Trump bux.

[Fourbirr]

@Olaf: You can also count on my 10 bucks.


Honestly I think the biggest thing holding the deck back is actually play skill. The deck is simply not an aggro deck, and I see SOOO many lists, and players, running it like it is one.

It's very true. For my part, my win ratio has increased drastically against the same decks and same players since I know better how to pilot the deck. The sideboard choices are so important, too. Not to mention the shuffling, the mental tiredness, the psychological aspect, the luck factor of what he/you draw. The list is not everything.

[1GoblinLackey]

@Olaf, I don't know if asking Jim to play Goblins is a good idea. Everytime I bring it up on his stream, he seems to brush off the deck as completely unplayable. I also don't believe he'd enjoy playing it, which is important on a viewers level. I don't want to watch Jim Davis, renowned Goblins master, have a miserable time with Goblins. As others have pointed out above, his list is pretty outdated. After playing more and more matches, I find that maindeck pyrokinesis is practically a must, and Siege-Gang is pretty bad (with a few matchup exceptions). I doubt Jim has updated his deck since his "funeral for a friend" article.

In other news, I played Goblins against a couple friends at an LGS' casual magic night (which is basically legacy night for a lot of us there). I didn't win many games, but that is very much to be expected for me, as this day basically marks my first time playing my deck against a group of people in paper. I'm also still on a budget list, though it didn't hurt me too terribly (I didn't play against any blue decks so caverns didn't matter, and my ghost quarters did a decent job as port replacements, occasionally acting as a strip mine). I do have some notes/thoughts from the day though.

Played 2 Game 1s against Elves. I almost won the 2nd game, but still died to a quick 'hoof. My biggest problem throughout the day was obstinately refusing to mulligan when I really should have. For example, I kept on the play; Vial, Mountain, GQ,Pendelhaven, MWM, Matron, Prospector. Looking back, I really should have been mulliganing to Pyro or Sharpshooter. This is something I think will come in practice. I'm used to playing spell heavy control decks (Grixis Control FTW), so Lands+Spells has usually gotten me there in the past. I see how conditional Goblins, and legacy as a format, are, and will adjust accordingly.

Moving on to Maverick. The Game 1 we played was absolutely amazing. MWM pulled his weight harder than ever. The opening turns went my way with Pyrokinesis killing off either 2 mothers or 1 deathrite and a stoneforge (I don't recall). Over the course of the game, my opponent started to really go nuts with Knight of the Reliquary, while I occasionally could swing in with the team for a few points of damage, then refill and block with ringleaders. My opponent had gone really deep, and GSZ'd for.....Gitrog. I sat back on my piles of chump blockers while accrued insane card advantage between Knight and Gitrog. However, I had managed to keep the board equipment-free, and eventually he had to sac the gitrog because I had ported and strip mined his lands so low (He had fortunately never found a Loam, despite only have 20 cards left in his deck or so). Over all of this, he would only attack with 1-2 of his 15/15 knights because of the fear of a lethal crackback (he was hovering between 8-12 throughout most of the lategame). I had close to a dozen goblins in play (Mostly MWM tokens, lackeys, matrons, 3 ringleaders, and 2 warchiefs).

However, the game sped up considerably when he SFM'd for a sword of Fire and Ice. I kept him from playing it for awhile via port and the GQs, but eventually multiple deathrites allowed him to cast it. With sword in play, and I facing down 3 15/15 knights (1 tapped), 2 deathrites ( 1 tapped) a Thalia, a Stoneforge, and a Quasli Pridemage. I knew that I only had 3 possible outs; Krenko, Tuktuk, or Chieftain. I prayed to the the Goblin gods and flipped the top of my deck for...Krenko! I vialed it in with no fear (and no choice), knowing he had already gotten and sacrificed his Karakas for the Frog. Activating Krenko put 13 goblin tokens into play, and I swung with about 30odd power of creatures. Alas, my victory was not to be, as he exiled a land with deathrite to cast Swords to Plowshares on his own tapped knight, going up to 25. My entire swing after blocks left me 4 damage short, and I conceded to the pro-red knight on the crackback. I'm pretty proud of this game, and I'm not sure how I could have played it better. I could have gone for Krenko earlier, but Karakas kept me from it. The only possible mistake was when I pitched a Sharpshooter relatively early on for Pyro. It would have made all the difference (though that is very results orientated thinking, so idk).

After that absolute marathon (game easily lasted over an hour), we went to sideboards. These games were much less eventful, and I lost both of the 2 sideboarded games we played, once again due to pilot error (I made a huge mistake not matroning for Tuktuk when I knew he had Jitte in hand; I don't know why I decided to get Chieftain instead, I think I just thought I'd be able to kill him before the Jitte got online). The 3rd game was pretty noncompetitive, I once again should have mulliganed and didn't.

The other games I played were against a mono-green infect variant that was on a bit of a budget, and I easily took those. Turn 4 kill while tarfiring the lone glistener elf was pretty good.

My question for the forum is in regard to sideboarding against maverick. I felt like I had overboarded a bit, as well as underestimated lackey. Here's the list I had today;

4 Vials

23 Lands:
4 Wasteland
1 Cavern
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Port
1 Pendelhaven
14 Mountain

27 Creatures
4 Lackey
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
3 War Marshal
3 Piledriver
1 Gempalm
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Stingscourger
1 Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector

4 Instants
2 Tarfire
2 Pyrokinesis

Sideboard:
3 Pithing Needle
3 Relic
1 Gempalm
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Pyrokinesis
2 REB
1 Siege-Gang
1 Sharpshooter
1 Warping Wail

I boarded as such; -3 Lackey, -2 Piledriver, -1 Stingscourger, -1 Sharpshooter, -1 Tarfire (As you can see, I felt pretty unsure). I knew Piledriver was correct to take out (and probably should have taken out all 3). I added +3 Pithing Needle, +2 Relic, +1 Gempalm, +1 Siege-Gang, +1 Tuktuk. Looking back, I think I should have kept Lackeys in, especially on the play. Tarfire could probably have also stayed, but perhaps not. I should have also played the 3rd relic over the Siege-Gang because it makes the Maverick engine basically inoperable, but I was afraid of lowering my goblin count even lower in such a grindy matchup. However, all of this leaves me with the question of what else do I board out if I leave in Lackey? Deck space definitely felt like a problem.

After discussing the match with my opponent later in the evening, I thought about a possible consideration for the sideboard; Price of Progress. I play an absurd number of basics, and I had multiple occasions where I had gotten my opp to around 10 life or so thanks to pot shots when the board was clear, but couldn't get much further without sacrificing my board too much. Does PoP have a place in Goblins, or at least my current build of it? I understand why it wouldn't work in the 4 Port, 4 Waste, 4 Cavern lists (not even accounting for any possible dual lands), but do any of you experienced goblins pilots have input?

My god this post turned out much longer than I expected. Thanks for reading my wall of text. I had a blast with the deck despite my poor game win %, and as I said, the majority of my losses were my own, not the deck's. Had I played better, I think I could have broken even on Maverick games. The matchup doesn't seem too bad, despite them having a lot of we fear in fair matchups.

[Chatto]

Edit: My question still stands, does anyone care enough? As I said, I will do it myself if there is not enough group interest in a few months.

No, not interested. The reason for this is pretty simple: you either play because you love it, or not play ar all. You don't play because you get paid to do so. Honestly, I love this deck, but it is hard without an proper update of useable Goblins: Disenchant, Haste, Pump, or Vial Smasher without the Legendary-type. Hell, somekind of really weird combo-Goblin (I really don't know what exactly) would be great too!

[Olaf Forkbeard]

4 Vials

23 Lands:
4 Wasteland
1 Cavern
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Port
1 Pendelhaven
14 Mountain

27 Creatures
4 Lackey
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
3 War Marshal
3 Piledriver
1 Gempalm
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Stingscourger
1 Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector

4 Instants
2 Tarfire
2 Pyrokinesis

Sideboard:
3 Pithing Needle
3 Relic
1 Gempalm
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Pyrokinesis
2 REB
1 Siege-Gang
1 Sharpshooter
1 Warping Wail


I'd love to throw a pointer out, but your list is 58 cards in the main?


No, not interested. The reason for this is pretty simple: you either play because you love it, or not play ar all. You don't play because you get paid to do so. Honestly, I love this deck, but it is hard without an proper update of useable Goblins: Disenchant, Haste, Pump, or Vial Smasher without the Legendary-type. Hell, somekind of really weird combo-Goblin (I really don't know what exactly) would be great too!

@turn1lackey - He didn't seem so down on the idea when I proposed it to him a few months ago, but it seems there just isn't as much interest as I thought.

Hmm. I guess I just thought there would be more interest in this type of thing. Noted, and moving on.

[1GoblinLackey]

[QUOTE=Olaf Forkbeard;977777]I'd love to throw a pointer out, but your list is 58 cards in the main?



I'm an idiot :laugh: I forgot to type the 1 Chieftain and the 1 Tuktuk Scrapper.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

MB:
4 Wasteland
1 Cavern
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Port
1 Pendelhaven
14 Mountain

4 Lackey
1 Skirk Prospector
3 Piledriver
3 War Marshal
4 Warchief
1 Chieftain
1 Sharpshooter
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

1 Stingscourger
1 Gempalm
2 Tarfire
2 Pyrokinesis
SB:
3 Pithing Needle
3 Relic
1 Gempalm
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Pyrokinesis
2 REB
1 Siege-Gang
1 Sharpshooter
1 Warping Wail

With your exact list against the Maverick build you mentioned:

Play
+2 Needle, +2 Relic, +1 Scrapper | With matron that gives you 10 ways to find an answer to an equipment, and a couple of relics to shrink mid-late game Knights.
-2 Pile, -1 Warchief, -1 Mogg, -1 Sting | You have natural tempo from being on the play, you don't need the Mogg for defense nearly as much. I think the boarded cards are just barely, and I mean just, better than the Stingscourger. Past that you don't want to overboard.
Draw
+2 Needle, +2 Relic, +1 Scrapper, +1 Pyro, +1 Gem
-4 Lackey, -2 Pile, -1 Sting | On the draw the Pyro looks better due to the natural loss in tempo. Lackey is pretty poor against maverick on the draw, so just axe him, and lastly I would imagine the Gempalm being better than the Sting here, but that's up in the air.

There is also a pretty good argument for bringing in Siege-Gang over Krenko, as Karakas was sitting in his list. You can't go much further due to keeping that Goblin Count high.

I think the bigger issue here is your board. It's a piece.

Gempalm in a weird card in the board. I think he is just maindeck or out. If you are going to run a SB cards, it usually needs to fix a problem, and you have a fine number of kill spells in your main.

Next, you don't have a board plan really, that I could see anyway. When I'm building my sideboard, I am not just jamming cards that are good against things in there. I figure out what I can take out as well.

An example of this actually is as follows. I had 2 Pithing, 1 Tin Street and 3 Pyro's in my board. I was debating if I were to put 2 Wear // Tear's in my board for both equipment and Moat, and they'd go over a non-mentioned SB slot. After doing the math I found that means I have 8 cards I really wanted against D&T, and I did not have 8 cards to take out. On the play I'd board 6 cards, and on the draw I'd board 7. That means I am wasting SB space if that extra 1 or 2 cards didn't get used strongly in other matches. Since they were for Moat specifically, and Miracles is a positive match-up I ended up cutting them for some other card that affected a match-up I didn't have covered.

When I look at your SB I see sweet cards, to be sure, but you need to have a gameplan for them all, and it's probably best to come up with it during deck design.

I'm a little worried about your combo hate, or there lack of. You have grave hate, which is the easy one, and 2 REB + Sting, which is the bare minimum basically against Show & Tell, but what is your actual plan if someone comes at you with Storm, or Omnitell? If you are on a budget as you implied, grab some Pyrostatic Pillars, (about 3) and jam 'em in there. They'll come in against spell based aggro, and do some good work. If you can get Eidolon of the Great Revel, do him instead.

[1GoblinLackey]

With your exact list against the Maverick build you mentioned:

Play
+2 Needle, +2 Relic, +1 Scrapper | With matron that gives you 10 ways to find an answer to an equipment, and a couple of relics to shrink mid-late game Knights.
-2 Pile, -1 Warchief, -1 Mogg, -1 Sting | You have natural tempo from being on the play, you don't need the Mogg for defense nearly as much. I think the boarded cards are just barely, and I mean just, better than the Stingscourger. Past that you don't want to overboard.
Draw
+2 Needle, +2 Relic, +1 Scrapper, +1 Pyro, +1 Gem
-4 Lackey, -2 Pile, -1 Sting | On the draw the Pyro looks better due to the natural loss in tempo. Lackey is pretty poor against maverick on the draw, so just axe him, and lastly I would imagine the Gempalm being better than the Sting here, but that's up in the air.

There is also a pretty good argument for bringing in Siege-Gang over Krenko, as Karakas was sitting in his list. You can't go much further due to keeping that Goblin Count high.

I think the bigger issue here is your board. It's a piece.

Gempalm in a weird card in the board. I think he is just maindeck or out. If you are going to run a SB cards, it usually needs to fix a problem, and you have a fine number of kill spells in your main.

Next, you don't have a board plan really, that I could see anyway. When I'm building my sideboard, I am not just jamming cards that are good against things in there. I figure out what I can take out as well.

An example of this actually is as follows. I had 2 Pithing, 1 Tin Street and 3 Pyro's in my board. I was debating if I were to put 2 Wear // Tear's in my board for both equipment and Moat, and they'd go over a non-mentioned SB slot. After doing the math I found that means I have 8 cards I really wanted against D&T, and I did not have 8 cards to take out. On the play I'd board 6 cards, and on the draw I'd board 7. That means I am wasting SB space if that extra 1 or 2 cards didn't get used strongly in other matches. Since they were for Moat specifically, and Miracles is a positive match-up I ended up cutting them for some other card that affected a match-up I didn't have covered.

When I look at your SB I see sweet cards, to be sure, but you need to have a gameplan for them all, and it's probably best to come up with it during deck design.

I'm a little worried about your combo hate, or there lack of. You have grave hate, which is the easy one, and 2 REB + Sting, which is the bare minimum basically against Show & Tell, but what is your actual plan if someone comes at you with Storm, or Omnitell? If you are on a budget as you implied, grab some Pyrostatic Pillars, (about 3) and jam 'em in there. They'll come in against spell based aggro, and do some good work. If you can get Eidolon of the Great Revel, do him instead.

Thanks so much for the boarding advice! I'll definitely keep that in mind for the next matches I play. The in vs out ratio is an important to keep in mind for deckbuilding for sure.
My lack of spell-based combo hate mainly comes from the fact that basically no one in the local meta plays combo. There is an elves player, but the pyro's should assist enough for that. Warping wail counters Natural Order too, so that's a possibility. The 1 combo deck is the worst one of them all though...belcher. He literally learned the deck last monday, so maybe I can count on pilot error a little bit. Once I get them, I am definitely putting 3 chalices in my board, which I think helps tune up the board a good bit. My current hope if I play against Belcher is pithing needle the belcher, get a sharpshooter for Empty, and pray he doesn't hit the tendrils. I suppose Warping Wail also helps there because I can counter the burning wish.

For the record, my local meta is quite bizarre and erratic, because it's mostly people with multiple decks. One guy is even playing a mono blue control deck that hasn't been updated in 10 years or so. His win condition is a single Morphling. I haven't played against him yet, but I'm looking forward to some very very old school magic.:laugh:

After typing all of this, I remembered that a friend is also playing sneak and show. We've played a bunch of times, and I've only dropped a single game. Maybe variance, but the matchup actually felt pretty good.

[Caspid]

Hey guys, I really love legacy goblins and would love to learn how to play it better. Any suggestions on resources to learn the general principles (e.g. T1 Vial vs Lackey, when not to play Warchief, when to hold back Piledrivers/Matrons, etc)? And any good match vids you would recommend?

[dissy]

Hey guys, I really love legacy goblins and would love to learn how to play it better. Any suggestions on resources to learn the general principles (e.g. T1 Vial vs Lackey, when not to play Warchief, when to hold back Piledrivers/Matrons, etc)? And any good match vids you would recommend?

Read the Primer would be a nice start;)
There is lot of information on youtube.
Just search for legacy goblins or goblins scg live and you will find tons of information about our little green angry men:cool:

[GoboLord]

Hello fellow Warchiefs,

quick tournament report (my first event in 3 months :laugh:).

The list:

LANDS (23)
4 Caverns of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
1 Pendelhaven
2 Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Taiga
5 R-Fetches

CORE (16)
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader

Rest of the bunch (21)
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Krenko, Mob Boss
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Sylvan Library

SIDEBOARD (15)
3 Blood Moon
3 Pithing Needle
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Tuktuk, the Explorer
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Dismember

Round 1: [otd] Deathblade (2-0)
-1 Sylvan Library, -2 Pyrokinesis, -1 Stingscourger
+3 Blood Moon, +1 Dismember
*not sure if it is correct to board out library here. couldn't really touch the rest though and Dismember seemed better than Library*

Round 2: [otp] Aluren (2-0)
-1 Skirk Prospector
+1 Carpet of Flowers

Round 3: [otp]UR Delver (1-2)
-1 Sylvan Library, -1 Tin-Street Hooligan
+1 Pyrokinesis, +1 Dismember
*he is flooded in G1, I take mull to 5 and 4 in G2 and G3*

Round 4: [otd] Wb Death & Taxes (2-0)
-4 Goblin Lackey, -1 Stingscourger, -1 Krenko, Mob Boss
+3 Pithing Needle, +1 Dismember, +1 Pyrokinesis, +1 Dismember, +1 Siege-Gang Commander

Round 5: [otd] Death & Taxes (2-1)
-4 Goblin Lackey, -1 Stingscourger, -1 Krenko, Mob Boss
+3 Pithing Needle, +1 Dismember, +1 Pyrokinesis, +1 Dismember, +1 Siege-Gang Commander

Round 6: [otd] Elves (2-1)
-2 Krenko, Mob Boss, -1 Stingscourger, -1 Ringleader, -1 Sylvan Library
+3 Blood Moon, +1 Pyrokinesis, +1 Dimember
*highlight in G3: On my turn 3 his board is: Llanowar Elves, Birchlore Rangers, Heritage Druid, Wirewood Symbiote, Cavern of Souls, Gaea's Cradle.
I have two lands in play and my hand is: Krenko, Mob Boss, Mogg War Marshal, Blood Moon, Pyrokinesis, Mountain. I kill his entire board wit Kinesis, drop Blood Moon and he concedes.*

Top 4: [otp] Aggro Loam (2-0)
-4 Goblin Lackey, -1 Tin-Street Hooligan, -1 Skirk Prospector, -2 Pyrokinesis
+3 Blood Moon, +1 Dimember, +2 Siege-Gang Commander, +2 Tuktuk, the Explorer
*highlight in G2: on turn 6 I put Siege-Gang Commander into play at EOT, attack with everything (had another 4 tokens from 2 MWMs) and my opponent wipes my board with Swords to Plowshares + Golgari Charm. I drop Sylvan Library and pass. On his turn he taps out for Liliana + GSZ into Knight of the Reliquary. On my turn I draw 3 cards from Library (taking 8 dmg), bounce his Knight with Stingscourger, drop a Blood Moon and pass. He untaps, draws and passes. I go into my turn, take another 8 damage from Library, cast Warchief + MWM + Krenko and he concedes.

Finals: UR Delver (my R3 opponent)
* I concede and let him have the BYEs, since I'm not going to Prague anyway*



THOUGHTS:
* this was probably the most controlish list I ever built and it was a lot of fun to play (props to team Krenko for raising close to 150 healthy goblin tokens throught the day). The gameplan for EVERY game 1 is quite simple: get Krenko on the table. Multiple times if needed. 0 Piledrivers and 0 Chieftains means that you don't have many other options anyways
* multiples Krenkos are quite annoying when you are paired against D&T, since Karakas + Revoker can give you hard times.
* Sylvan Library is a matchwinner. Never lost a game after it resolved (and stuck for at least one drawstep). Needs more testing though.
* I can highly recommend boarding Blood Moons vs. Elves and Pithing Needle vs. Death & Taxes
* need golem tokens


Questions are - as always - welcome.

Cheers!

- GL

[Olaf Forkbeard]

An interesting list. I was considering doing the same split on Gempalm / Pyro with no Tarfire, as match-us where I want Tarfire I want Pyro.

What specifically is the Tuktuk, the Explorer there for? Do you use it in Goyf Matches?

I find it interesting you didn't board any Pithing Needles in against Stoneblade either. Was he Azorius, Jeskai, or Esper?

Your curve is pretty high, did you feel like you wanted another land?

[GoboLord]

Tuktuk the Explorer comes in against Aggro Loam, Shardless BUG and Delver decks with Goyf. So, yes, it's for the Goyf decks.

The Deathblade decks was UWbg and I didnt see a single basicland. Hence the Moons. I was thinking of Needle, but I felt like his equipments would only ever get relevant if attached to True-Name Nemesis and I think I could play around that with Manadenial + Removal (on SFM), slowing him down and making his plays more predictable.

Mana wasnt an issue. Gempalm draws help you hitting land drops, so does Library. Also 4 MWM + Ports can "freeze" the game for a turn or 2 which gives you time to find lands as well. On the other hand I wasnt paired against any deck that could successfully attack my manabase (D&T hurt themselves more from using their manadenial. That's why I'm packing Carpet of Flowers: for the Delver decks with Wasteland.

[Stevestamopz]

Carpet of Flowers is brilliant. At worst it eats an Abrupt Decay for something else, and at best you get to actually have mana.

I agree with not bringing it in against Deathblade. Historically it was a pretty even matchup where we would just bob and weave and pull ahead with Gempalms and Ringleaders with Blood Moon as the free "I win" button if you need it.

Carpet against shardless though.... yes please.

Gratz on a good finish GL!

[Dan Pyre]

Well Gobolord, I may have to try this build out at my next Legacy event. Looks sharp!

[dissy]

Hello fellow Warchiefs,

quick tournament report (my first event in 3 months :laugh:).

The list:

LANDS (23)
4 Caverns of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
1 Pendelhaven
2 Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Taiga
5 R-Fetches

CORE (16)
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader

Rest of the bunch (21)
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Krenko, Mob Boss
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Sylvan Library

SIDEBOARD (15)
3 Blood Moon
3 Pithing Needle
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Tuktuk, the Explorer
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Dismember

Round 1: [otd] Deathblade (2-0)
-1 Sylvan Library, -2 Pyrokinesis, -1 Stingscourger
+3 Blood Moon, +1 Dismember
*not sure if it is correct to board out library here. couldn't really touch the rest though and Dismember seemed better than Library*

Round 2: [otp] Aluren (2-0)
-1 Skirk Prospector
+1 Carpet of Flowers

Round 3: [otp]UR Delver (1-2)
-1 Sylvan Library, -1 Tin-Street Hooligan
+1 Pyrokinesis, +1 Dismember
*he is flooded in G1, I take mull to 5 and 4 in G2 and G3*

Round 4: [otd] Wb Death & Taxes (2-0)
-4 Goblin Lackey, -1 Stingscourger, -1 Krenko, Mob Boss
+3 Pithing Needle, +1 Dismember, +1 Pyrokinesis, +1 Dismember, +1 Siege-Gang Commander

Round 5: [otd] Death & Taxes (2-1)
-4 Goblin Lackey, -1 Stingscourger, -1 Krenko, Mob Boss
+3 Pithing Needle, +1 Dismember, +1 Pyrokinesis, +1 Dismember, +1 Siege-Gang Commander

Round 6: [otd] Elves (2-1)
-2 Krenko, Mob Boss, -1 Stingscourger, -1 Ringleader, -1 Sylvan Library
+3 Blood Moon, +1 Pyrokinesis, +1 Dimember
*highlight in G3: On my turn 3 his board is: Llanowar Elves, Birchlore Rangers, Heritage Druid, Wirewood Symbiote, Cavern of Souls, Gaea's Cradle.
I have two lands in play and my hand is: Krenko, Mob Boss, Mogg War Marshal, Blood Moon, Pyrokinesis, Mountain. I kill his entire board wit Kinesis, drop Blood Moon and he concedes.*

Top 4: [otp] Aggro Loam (2-0)
-4 Goblin Lackey, -1 Tin-Street Hooligan, -1 Skirk Prospector, -2 Pyrokinesis
+3 Blood Moon, +1 Dimember, +2 Siege-Gang Commander, +2 Tuktuk, the Explorer
*highlight in G2: on turn 6 I put Siege-Gang Commander into play at EOT, attack with everything (had another 4 tokens from 2 MWMs) and my opponent wipes my board with Swords to Plowshares + Golgari Charm. I drop Sylvan Library and pass. On his turn he taps out for Liliana + GSZ into Knight of the Reliquary. On my turn I draw 3 cards from Library (taking 8 dmg), bounce his Knight with Stingscourger, drop a Blood Moon and pass. He untaps, draws and passes. I go into my turn, take another 8 damage from Library, cast Warchief + MWM + Krenko and he concedes.

Finals: UR Delver (my R3 opponent)
* I concede and let him have the BYEs, since I'm not going to Prague anyway*



THOUGHTS:
* this was probably the most controlish list I ever built and it was a lot of fun to play (props to team Krenko for raising close to 150 healthy goblin tokens throught the day). The gameplan for EVERY game 1 is quite simple: get Krenko on the table. Multiple times if needed. 0 Piledrivers and 0 Chieftains means that you don't have many other options anyways
* multiples Krenkos are quite annoying when you are paired against D&T, since Karakas + Revoker can give you hard times.
* Sylvan Library is a matchwinner. Never lost a game after it resolved (and stuck for at least one drawstep). Needs more testing though.
* I can highly recommend boarding Blood Moons vs. Elves and Pithing Needle vs. Death & Taxes
* need golem tokens


Questions are - as always - welcome.

Cheers!

- GL

What a build thats kind of special!

I love the top 4 vs agro loam, still not convinced on the library personally, altough i think in grindy matchups it can be verry strong.
I also like the way you board, overall just minimum no overboarding. That is my big problem a lot of times.
I have never boarded bloodmoon vs elves altough i play 3 of them, for sure going to test that.
Versus Aluren you didnt board in the bloodmoon not sure if that is correct..I played the mu couple of times online and i think it shines.
Yes i know that when the Aluren is out they can cast creatures for free. I also like the pyrokinesis vs Aluren because you can kill their combo with it quite easily.

Also i see that you dont play any graveyard hate at all for, for example: lands, reanimator, dredge, storm, relics to keep goyf small etc. Is that just a metacall. If so you have called right.

Is bloodmoon good enough to maindeck?

[GoboLord]

What a build thats kind of special!

I love the top 4 vs agro loam, still not convinced on the library personally, altough i think in grindy matchups it can be verry strong.
I also like the way you board, overall just minimum no overboarding. That is my big problem a lot of times.
I have never boarded bloodmoon vs elves altough i play 3 of them, for sure going to test that.
Versus Aluren you didnt board in the bloodmoon not sure if that is correct..I played the mu couple of times online and i think it shines.
Yes i know that when the Aluren is out they can cast creatures for free. I also like the pyrokinesis vs Aluren because you can kill their combo with it quite easily.

Also i see that you dont play any graveyard hate at all for, for example: lands, reanimator, dredge, storm, relics to keep goyf small etc. Is that just a metacall. If so you have called right.

Is bloodmoon good enough to maindeck?

On SBing: I tend to drift away from this minimalist approach from time to time. Olaf's new paragraph on SBing reminded me how much work and finetuning it actually needs to build a SB that works well.
@Olaf: I think everyone could profit from your SB-building-skills. I liked the advice that you gave GoblinLackey1 on his SB. Especially this one:

An example of this actually is as follows. I had 2 Pithing, 1 Tin Street and 3 Pyro's in my board. I was debating if I were to put 2 Wear // Tear's in my board for both equipment and Moat, and they'd go over a non-mentioned SB slot. After doing the math I found that means I have 8 cards I really wanted against D&T, and I did not have 8 cards to take out. On the play I'd board 6 cards, and on the draw I'd board 7. That means I am wasting SB space if that extra 1 or 2 cards didn't get used strongly in other matches. Since they were for Moat specifically, and Miracles is a positive match-up I ended up cutting them for some other card that affected a match-up I didn't have covered.

On Aluren MU: I didn't know my opponent was on Aluren until the very last turn of the G2. After G1 I just buried him in Krenkos, thinking that he was on Shardless Bug. Wouldn't board Blood Moon against Shardless, but definitely against Aluren.

On GY hate: this was indeed a meta call. you could justify Relics with the Tarmogoyf MUs alone, but I was looking for a goblin-shaped solution here, which is why I upped the count of MWM, Krenko and Incinerator and put Tuktuk the Explorer in my SB (as MWM #5 and #6).

On Moon Maindeck: Would defiitely be a metacall. I am very critical on the application of Moons, so I don't think its maindeck-material. I want it vs. Eldrazi, Lands, Aggro Loam, Elves and thats basically it (the 4c Esperblade in R1 was an exception, as it was so deep into 4c).

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Further on Tuktuk, the Explorer: Was he good? Was he bad? Did he do things you didn't expect him to do? Did ever feel the need to tutor him?

[GoboLord]

Further on Tuktuk, the Explorer: Was he good? Was he bad? Did he do things you didn't expect him to do? Did ever feel the need to tutor him?

On the tournament I boarded it once (T4, Aggro Loam) and it ate a Swords to Plowshares one turn after it came into play, while there still was a Goblin Warchief lying next to it. The reason was probably that my opponent didn't like the idea of fighting a 5/5 body, and at the same time he had more outs for Warchief (Punishing Fire, Decay). Also he probably already had Golgari Charm in his hand at that time, so using StoP this way was probably a necessary evil. The StoP definitely came unexpected, as he knew that I had at least 1 Krenko in my deck. [* I really should have asked him after the game, but both of us were in a hurry to leave]
So in a way it did what it was supposed to do. Transfer the same situation to the other MU where I want to bring in tuktuk the Explorer (Shardless BUG), getting the 5/5 token at some point would be inevitable.
I can't evaluate yet whether it was good or bad. It was definitely the most UNexiciting card in my 75 on that day, and those two slots are the most debatable. On the other hand I would need to come up with a worthy alternative, and I actually thought about those two slots for a long time before grabbing Tuktuk.

Additionally, I remember ScatmanX testing the card on the kitchen-table during our stay in Prague this year. I don't remember many details, but he was positive about the card to say the least (I know for a fact that he tested against Aggro Loam on that weekend - can't remember any other MU though). Maybe you can drop a few lines on tuktuk, Marcelo?

[1GoblinLackey]

Hello fellow Warchiefs,

quick tournament report (my first event in 3 months :laugh:).

The list:

LANDS (23)
4 Caverns of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
1 Pendelhaven
2 Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Taiga
5 R-Fetches

CORE (16)
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader

Rest of the bunch (21)
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Krenko, Mob Boss
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Sylvan Library

SIDEBOARD (15)
3 Blood Moon
3 Pithing Needle
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Tuktuk, the Explorer
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Dismember

Round 1: [otd] Deathblade (2-0)
-1 Sylvan Library, -2 Pyrokinesis, -1 Stingscourger
+3 Blood Moon, +1 Dismember
*not sure if it is correct to board out library here. couldn't really touch the rest though and Dismember seemed better than Library*

Round 2: [otp] Aluren (2-0)
-1 Skirk Prospector
+1 Carpet of Flowers

Round 3: [otp]UR Delver (1-2)
-1 Sylvan Library, -1 Tin-Street Hooligan
+1 Pyrokinesis, +1 Dismember
*he is flooded in G1, I take mull to 5 and 4 in G2 and G3*

Round 4: [otd] Wb Death & Taxes (2-0)
-4 Goblin Lackey, -1 Stingscourger, -1 Krenko, Mob Boss
+3 Pithing Needle, +1 Dismember, +1 Pyrokinesis, +1 Dismember, +1 Siege-Gang Commander

Round 5: [otd] Death & Taxes (2-1)
-4 Goblin Lackey, -1 Stingscourger, -1 Krenko, Mob Boss
+3 Pithing Needle, +1 Dismember, +1 Pyrokinesis, +1 Dismember, +1 Siege-Gang Commander

Round 6: [otd] Elves (2-1)
-2 Krenko, Mob Boss, -1 Stingscourger, -1 Ringleader, -1 Sylvan Library
+3 Blood Moon, +1 Pyrokinesis, +1 Dimember
*highlight in G3: On my turn 3 his board is: Llanowar Elves, Birchlore Rangers, Heritage Druid, Wirewood Symbiote, Cavern of Souls, Gaea's Cradle.
I have two lands in play and my hand is: Krenko, Mob Boss, Mogg War Marshal, Blood Moon, Pyrokinesis, Mountain. I kill his entire board wit Kinesis, drop Blood Moon and he concedes.*

Top 4: [otp] Aggro Loam (2-0)
-4 Goblin Lackey, -1 Tin-Street Hooligan, -1 Skirk Prospector, -2 Pyrokinesis
+3 Blood Moon, +1 Dimember, +2 Siege-Gang Commander, +2 Tuktuk, the Explorer
*highlight in G2: on turn 6 I put Siege-Gang Commander into play at EOT, attack with everything (had another 4 tokens from 2 MWMs) and my opponent wipes my board with Swords to Plowshares + Golgari Charm. I drop Sylvan Library and pass. On his turn he taps out for Liliana + GSZ into Knight of the Reliquary. On my turn I draw 3 cards from Library (taking 8 dmg), bounce his Knight with Stingscourger, drop a Blood Moon and pass. He untaps, draws and passes. I go into my turn, take another 8 damage from Library, cast Warchief + MWM + Krenko and he concedes.

Finals: UR Delver (my R3 opponent)
* I concede and let him have the BYEs, since I'm not going to Prague anyway*



THOUGHTS:
* this was probably the most controlish list I ever built and it was a lot of fun to play (props to team Krenko for raising close to 150 healthy goblin tokens throught the day). The gameplan for EVERY game 1 is quite simple: get Krenko on the table. Multiple times if needed. 0 Piledrivers and 0 Chieftains means that you don't have many other options anyways
* multiples Krenkos are quite annoying when you are paired against D&T, since Karakas + Revoker can give you hard times.
* Sylvan Library is a matchwinner. Never lost a game after it resolved (and stuck for at least one drawstep). Needs more testing though.
* I can highly recommend boarding Blood Moons vs. Elves and Pithing Needle vs. Death & Taxes
* need golem tokens


Questions are - as always - welcome.

Cheers!

- GL

My god is that list spicy and I love it! I have a few questions about your 75.

Did you miss the piledrivers or chieftains at all? Were there occasions during games where you thought "If I had a piledriver in my deck, I could win right now?"
What was the reasoning behind 2 Siege-Gangs in the board? Were you swapping them for 2 krenkos against Karakas decks, or something along those lines? What matchups did you have in mind for them?
You've gone much heavier on the green splash than I've seen before. Did you have problems casting your early green cards at points? Did you feel vulnerable to wasteland at points?

Thanks and great job with the tournament and the innovation!

EDIT: Something else I just noticed; not a single sharpshooter in the 75! I'm surprised by this especially, as sharpshooter synergizes quite well with Krenko (+prospector, or just attacking and making combat a nightmare for the opponent). Was this a meta call, or do you not think sharpshooter belongs in the deck? I've found him to be pretty invaluable, and one of the only ways to really lock down the board permanently against Elves.

[GoboLord]

My god is that list spicy and I love it! I have a few questions about your 75.

Did you miss the piledrivers or chieftains at all? Were there occasions during games where you thought "If I had a piledriver in my deck, I could win right now?"
What was the reasoning behind 2 Siege-Gangs in the board? Were you swapping them for 2 krenkos against Karakas decks, or something along those lines? What matchups did you have in mind for them?
You've gone much heavier on the green splash than I've seen before. Did you have problems casting your early green cards at points? Did you feel vulnerable to wasteland at points?

Thanks and great job with the tournament and the innovation!

EDIT: Something else I just noticed; not a single sharpshooter in the 75! I'm surprised by this especially, as sharpshooter synergizes quite well with Krenko (+prospector, or just attacking and making combat a nightmare for the opponent). Was this a meta call, or do you not think sharpshooter belongs in the deck? I've found him to be pretty invaluable, and one of the only ways to really lock down the board permanently against Elves.

@ Piledriver/Chieftains: The deck just worksentirely different without them, so its really hard to say whether I missed them. With the list I played your gameplan in EVERY game is to set up a boardposition for Krenko: you use your Wastelands and Ports differently (Karakas), you can't attack with your hastelords as much as you need the cost reduction, you will sometimes hold back Warchief for the same turn you want to bring Krenko into play.

With Piledriver + Chieftain on the other hand I want to drop Pile on T2 and Chieftain on turn 3 (for extra toughness and extra +2 while attacking). I'm putting Chieftain into play to pump Lackey for this one attack into an untapped DRS for example. I am more likely to use my manadenial only when I can't cast spells. The whole mindset is not to setup anything but rather to attack. Which route works best depends on the MU.

@ SGC in the board: Karakas is annoying for sure, but I only cut 1 Krenko vs. D&T. The main reason for SGC is it's grindy potential. There are some MU (D&T, Shardless BUG, Aggro Loam) that you can't win quick and dirty postboard, but where you need to grind. SGC supports the grinding.

@ G Splash: the deck operates well without access to G. The only "green" card you really want to cast reliably is TSH, which can be cast off Caverns, in addition to dual lands and Pendelhaven. Even considering SB cards I usually only need green mana for one turn where I cast the relevant card (e.g. I don't care if my Taiga gets wasted after I resolved Carpet of Flowers). The current manabase is definitely solid enough (it would be solid enough even with one Taiga)

@ Sharpshooter: that's a personal thing I guess, but I don't like Sharpshooters as singletons. They are much more effective in multiples, as your opponent will almost always be able to handle the first one (same issue with Krenko). I just don't have any room for multiple Sharpshooters. It comes down to OlafForkbeard's SB philosophy: if I cut Pyrokinesis and Dismember for example, then the Elves and Grixis MU would be affected positively by this change, but I would lose 2 valuable cards against Eldrazi. If I cut 2 Tuktuk, the Explorer for 2 Sharpshooter, then I have too much to bring in against D&T, Elves, and Grixis (more cards than I can board out) while I'm lacking good cards against Shardless BUG and Aggro Loam. So it's also a matter of balance. I believe OlafForkbeard can put that into words way better than me.

[Fourbirr]

Congrats for your result and for this very original and innovative list GoboLord.

Here are some personal impressions reading your list.


Cutting Piledriver + Sharpshooter gives place to more MWM and Gempalm Incinerators and 3 super explosive Krenkos for the win. That's sweet.
Straightening Lackey with Pendelhaven is solid, but haven't you been red mana short sometimes?
Two Pyrokinesis MD plus one in the side should do as much work as Sharpshooter board cleaning does. But isn't it too risky to count on Pyro? At least Sharpshooter can be tutored. Do you consider the tutoring too slow against elves, because that's my impression most of the time.


What about the choices? Could you explain some of your choices with Sylvan library and carpet of flowers? As an example, I suppose that you still T1 Goblin Lackey or Vial. But what about T2? Considering that Lackey was blocked and died during T2 attacking turn, which lets you without any goblin until T3, do you bring Sylvan library or MWM? Card advantage or board presence?

What about carpet of flowers? Is it a mid game card or late game card? I don't really see it as a card for the first 3 turns, since you would preferably drop some goblins. You wrote you packed carpet against delver decks with wasteland. How far did it helped you in Round 3?

[GoboLord]

Comments in RED


Congrats for your result and for this very original and innovative list GoboLord.

Here are some personal impressions reading your list.


Cutting Piledriver + Sharpshooter gives place to more MWM and Gempalm Incinerators and 3 super explosive Krenkos for the win. That's sweet.
Straightening Lackey with Pendelhaven is solid, but haven't you been red mana short sometimes? No, not as a result of running Pendelhaven instead of a Mountain.
Two Pyrokinesis MD plus one in the side should do as much work as Sharpshooter board cleaning does. But isn't it too risky to count on Pyro? At least Sharpshooter can be tutored. Do you consider the tutoring too slow against elves, because that's my impression most of the time. See my answer on Sharpshooter above. Tutoring Sharpshooter vs. Elves will be too slow most of the time. I'd rather increase my chances of drawing it naturally, by playing multiple copies, plus using Gempalm's cycling early.


What about the choices? Could you explain some of your choices with Sylvan library and carpet of flowers? As an example, I suppose that you still T1 Goblin Lackey or Vial. But what about T2? Considering that Lackey was blocked and died during T2 attacking turn, which lets you without any goblin until T3, do you bring Sylvan library or MWM? Card advantage or board presence? Sylvan Library helps in mid-range and grindy MUs; Carpet comes in vs. Delver decks with Wasteland. Whether to play Library or MWM depends on the situation. I'm more likely to choose MWM over when my opponent has a creature on board that could possibly attack into MWM. I'm more likely to cast Library when I don't have many cards in hand or when I want to find a certain card.

What about carpet of flowers? Is it a mid game card or late game card? I don't really see it as a card for the first 3 turns, since you would preferably drop some goblins. You wrote you packed carpet against delver decks with wasteland. How far did it helped you in Round 3? I actually do normally cast Carpet on sight. Usually you will cast it for 1 mana in your first mainphase and then add at least 1 mana in your pool on the second mainphase of the same turn. In the MUs where I bring it in, it's very rare for my opponent not to have any Islands on board. Also, given that I swap Carpet for Lackey this is even more of an early play. As you can see from my boarding plans I didn't bring it in in Round 3, since my opponent wasn't playing any Wastelands. This was more of a Delver-Burn list.

[Fourbirr]

I see, thank you for your answers.

[1GoblinLackey]

Does anyone know who the warchief who placed 4th at this event? I like their list! The 3-2 split on warchiefs-chieftians is interesting. I'm also curious about the singleton pyrokinesis. I have often considered cutting to 1 because it frees up a slot elsewhere in the deck. On the downside, the matchups where you want them tend to be ones where you want them early.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-goblins-30487#paper
Also, I've been testing GoboLord's list for about 15 matches or so on cockatrice. It has been performing decently for me! I didn't initially keep track of my record, but it was definitely a positive W/L ratio early on. There's a Delver win that should be here, but I can't recall the version of delver so I didn't put it down. The ones I've recorded/remembered:
No changes
1-2 Moggcatcher (hundreds of goblin tokens were made in this match. It was very strange)
0-2 Shardless, (I have always struggled to win this matchup, I feel like I don't know how to board properly, or evaluate plays correctly).
2-0 D&T

Added Chalice, took out carpets and a blood moon

1-2 Storm (through a miracle of wastelands and port, I actually almost won game 1 on a mull to 5. Would have won if I hadn't topdecked a vial on the last turn).

Changed to its current form (below)

2-0 the goblin mirror(!!)
0-1 4color deathblade due to turn 2 true name, into stoneforge--jitte, then stoneforge SoFI after blowing up jitte. Bad beats indeed. They disconnected after G1.
2-1 Elves,
1-0 a blood moon prison deck involving sulfuric vortex...they disconnected as well.
0-2 twelve post,
0-2 Turbo depths (though I definitely just punted away at least one of the games, having never played against the deck before) ,
2-0 Turbo Depths
0-2 BUG delver,
2-0 Blood moon prison nonsense,
2-1 Shardless

I did quickly make a few adjustments to GoboLord's list in order to account for a wider meta, since you see a lot of nonsense combo on cockatrice.'
-1 gempalm, +1 tarfire.+1 Mountain, -1 Taiga. I considerably changed the board over time though (the exact 75 changed a bit throughout my testing. I understand this somewhat messes with any statistical analysis you can do. Here's my final version of the board;
3 Chalice
3 Pithing Needle
1 Chieftain (not sure about this, but I felt reallly slow in the combo matchups and I just needed a way to kill quickly in lieu of piledrivers)
1 Sharpshooter (still feel more comfortable with having one because of its strength against Elves & DnT)
2 Siege-Gang
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
2 Blood Moon
1 Pyrokinesis

Feel free to ask any questions about my changes! This testing definitely put chalice high on the list of KO cards in a lot of matchups, and I'd continue to recommend it. Something I think the board could use is 3 Relics. I really missed them against reanimator (which I can't remember the details of, so didn't list), and Goyf decks. Not having a way to nerf the goyf or deathrite made my BUG matchup feel almost unwinnable.

EDIT: Everyone should also take my advice and record in regards to deck with a grain of salt. I'm still quite inexperienced in the format and haven't really learned the ins and outs of the format. My only real info about legacy comes from Reddit, coverage, and threads like this.

[dissy]

Fellow Goblin players,

I really liked the plan of Gobbolord with al the boms.
Although i think it's a strong meta call,
I'am working on a list wich can also succeed without the krenko (dont worry i'am not gonna cut him).

I'am back to the 4 Goblin chieftains en 4 Mogg War Marshal besides that i cut the Piledrivers (I still like them vs Show and Tell decks but i don't see those that often), like to play krenko, SGC and Aerwig
Out of the three i think krenko is the best, but with different tutor targets u can solve different problems
Krenko: Out of nowhere make a lot of tokens, shines with multiple chieftains in my oppinion, but it has a single purpose full in attack
SGC: Gives you some outs vs decks that use Moat effects and is instantly effective when it hits the board without hastelord (hastelords often attract removal)
Aerwig: Is just a bom vs combo decks

I used the sheet of Olaf to keep track of my results i will post them tonight but the results arent to bad. I win 68% (over 50 matches) of my matches.
Note that this is on xmage and unranked. This means that u dont always play people who are really comfortable with their deck.

Lands (23)
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Rishadan Port
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
1 Bad Lands
1 Taiga
2 Wooded Foothils

Core
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Mogg War Marshal
1 Stingscourger
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Tin street Hooligan
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

Boms
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Aerwig Squad

Removal
1 Pyrokinesis
2 Tarfire
3 gempalm incinerators

Sideboard:
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extractions
1 Stingscourger
3 Blood moon
2 Pyrikonesis

Later on this week i will share my sideboard list with u guys.
And what i think of the different mu's with this decklist

Feel free to comment and ask questions on the build

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Played a Local Event last Tuesday with Jim Davis' list posted by Steve earlier in the thread, for the sole purpose of actually trying it out instead of dismissing it.

http://i.imgur.com/Kl20bRJ.png

I happened to play against Nic Fit, Reanimator, Tin Fins. Not quite as diverse as I was hoping.

I lost to Nic Fit in 2.
His deck is designed to go bigger than just about everything except Cloudpost on the fair side of things, so I'm not really surprised I lost. Pithing Needle was very good, and Krenko did work, but ultimately he had enough Decay's and Deeds to get me.

Beat Tin Fins in 3.
Jim's board isn't as good at beating Tin Fins as it is beating Reanimator. I was worried as I knew what he was on. I actually won game 1 due to Tin Fin's being a bit inconsistent. Games 2 and 3 I tutored up Stingscourger and never needed it as Relic and Containment Priest did the job.

Beat Reanimator in 2.
G1 He got an early Elesh Norn, and I bounced it; I won from there. G2 he got an early Elesh Norn, and I bounced it; I won from there.

As for how the deck felt... It felt tuned. I don't think it is tuned for today's meta, but it did feel like it had the tools for wide coverage. I think I will go back to my normal list (see my Signature under Deck 23 and 30) as I felt I had more narrow, but more relevant coverage.

@dissy
I went ahead and tried out the 3rd Mogg War Marshal over the 4th Piledriver like you suggested, and simply put I missed naturally drawing Piledriver more often. I also had Blood Moon in my board as you suggested again and it just felt unnecessary. Other than the obvious Matches (Grixis Delver, Lands, Aggro Loam) It just didn't have enough coverage for what it does. I felt like I could only board it in on the play due to resolving it in a reasonable time frame, and Pithing Needle has similar text against 2 out of those 3 decks but with the added ability to hit more. Those slots should be Spell Based Combo hate.

@gobolord
I'm going to give your list a few test runs as well, soon. I recently acquired a new job in a different town, and this fresh new legacy group might just let Lackey hit more often as they don't know what I'm on. Here's to hoping! <Lackey -> Krenko, GGs.>

[1GoblinLackey]

Hello fellow Warchiefs!

Last night, I was inspired by Caleb Durward's Esper DeathCopter video series on CFB, and his high praise for the card Smuggler's Copter. So, I decided to try to test out a Goblins list with 4x Smuggler's Copter. I still don't believe I've identified the right decklist or ratio of cards for it, but my testing so far largely leads me to believe that the card has a place in the deck, and room should definitely be made for it in some versions of Goblins.

First, I should address some of the criticisms and questions I expect to justify this new inclusion, along with some important points in its favor;

1. It's a fair card, and does not substantially help the deck in the matches that Goblins needs the most help, like spell-based combo.

This, while technically true, perhaps has too high expectations for a good card for the deck. I believe that if goblins could truly become a 50/50 deck against the fair matches and still crush miracles, then the deck will be a very good choice, depending on meta of course. I believe Copter helps in this concern; it is phenomenal against a lot of fair decks, and is no worse (and often slightly better) than extra war marshals or piledrivers in combo matchups. It's not insignificant that the loot can dig you one card closer to a crucial hate card (this did happen in my one match against reanimator, as it let me cast a second relic).

2. It's not a goblin, and so doesn't have enough synergy with the deck to justify itself over other goblins.
The deck can be built so as to not harm ringleader hit likelihood significantly. The first thing I did was take out the maindeck Pyros. This hurt me (because it's reallly good to have them around game 1), but I believe that it's an acceptable loss. With the 2 pyro's out, the copters only add 2 more non-goblins to the deck than normal, so ringleader is very slightly worse.

3. Making space for it in the deck cuts down on the number of playsets, increasing variance in the already variance-heavy deck. I think the opposite occurs in practice. If the Copter is on the field and functioning (which is very easy to do), it smooths out the draws considerably. Goblins is exactly the kind of deck that can benefit from looters. It definitely saved me multiple times by helping me hit land drops.

3. Copter has a lot of synergy with the way the deck plays out. It fits in the curve very well, either with or without turn 1 vial. Ideal start would be turn 1, Vial. Turn 2, cast copter, vial in lackey at opp's end step, allowing the lackey to actually be impactful, regardless of what blocker they have (it's very very satisfying to fly right over a deathrite that would normally stonewall you. It feels like justice.) I'm sure many of you have had plenty of board states where you have 4 or 5 goblins, but they're all useless dorks like matrons and war marshal leftovers. Copter allows them to be productive in the mid-late game without compromising the board presence. 3 flying damage plus a loot (or a block plus a loot, which is also great) is a great deal for a 2 mana artifact.

4. Opponents throw lots of artifact removal at it because it applies such pressure in terms of damage and card quality, and this makes Vial much more likely to survive. I had many occasions (particularly against shardless) where they abrupt decayed the Copter instead of the vial. I don't think this was a bad play on their part, to be clear, but forcing them to use their removal in this way is great. Copter's presence on the battlefield creates pressure just be being there, because it threatens to gain such advantage.

Couple of smaller points that came up in my matches: Having a colorless creature is AWESOME in some matches, almost unexpectedly. I won a match against punishing maverick I had no business winning because the Copter let me block a creature with a SoFI attached, and I imagine this kind of interaction is especially relevant in the D&T matchup (which I haven't played yet) because it also blanks Mother of Runes. Against MUD, it survives Ugin's minus, and then let's you swing back provided you have any creature at all in your hand, which conveniently kills Ugin if they -4'd.

It (kinda) dodges terminus and applies more pressure than the average goblin, and flies right over moat. So extra good against miracles!
Copter creates some tricky boardstates for your opponent. If you have no untapped creatures, a copter, and a vial on basically any number, your opponent cannot attack with a 3 toughness or less creature without significant risk. Having a vial on 1 represent the possibility of a 3/3 looting blocker instead of a random 1/1 is a very powerful deterrent!

Without further ado, here's the decklist I was playing for most of my matches (I've made a couple of small changes, usually varying the ratio of war marshals/piledrivers and which silver bullets to put in the sideboard vs maindeck). However, the core has stayed the same. I'd love for any advice regarding these ratios and what could be changed about the deck! I'm also curious about when I would side out the Copters themselves; I often find myself with an extra card to cut when sideboarding, and don't really know what is appropriate for a lot of matchups. Sideboarding is still something I'm struggling to figure out. Thank you for any feedback.

Artifacts: 8
4 Aether Vial
4 Smuggler's Copter

Creatures: 28 (1of city, something I'd like to change but not sure how)
4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
4 Warchief
3 War Marshal
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Piledriver
1 Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Siege-Gang
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

Instants: 2
2 Tarfire

Lands: 22
4 Port
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Mountain
1 Badlands

Sideboard: 15
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Earwig Squad
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

EDIT: I've been doing some more testing (I'm at about 30 matches total). I cut the Grenzo for a second piledriver, which I've liked a lot more. I also am considering switching my splash to white for Thalia and RIP. I'm not sure though, because in my experience thalia is sometimes just too slow, whereas Chalice on 0 stops a lot of nonsense.
Regardless, my testing continues to confirm the Copter is just phenomenal for the deck. It finally enables profitable attacks to be made at a much higher damage rate. I encourage any of you to try them out and see for yourself.

[203995014]

Does anyone here have a sample Winstigator list for more recent times? A friend of mine has an old one lying around and we're wondering if there's any new tech or tweaks that have been made.

[crowe_1]

I do alright with this locally.

Creatures:31
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Legion Loyalist
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Stingscourger
2 Subterranean Scout
3 Warren Instigator
1 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Siege-Gang Commander

Spells:9
3 Chrome Mox
3 AEther Vial
3 Tarfire

Lands:20
4 Cavern of Souls
10 Mountain
2 Pendelhaven
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ratchet Bomb
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Pyrokinesis

The ideal play is to get a Winstigator through on turn two, trigger Matron, pop out Kiki and have perfect draws for the rest of the game. Like other Goblins builds it tends to flounder if you can't resolve Matrons or Ringleaders. I run Thorns instead of Thalia because Thalia will die to the things they're already bringing in to wipe your Goblins. Sideboard is heavily geared towards beating combo.

[GoboLord]

Does anyone here have a sample Winstigator list for more recent times? A friend of mine has an old one lying around and we're wondering if there's any new tech or tweaks that have been made.

Thats the latest one I built.
Eldrazis keep me from playing it though

MANA [23]
4 Caverns, 3 Chrome Mox, 2 Pendelhaven
3 Wasteland,
5 Mountain,
1 Taiga, 5 Fetchlands

CORE [30]
4 Vial, 4 Lackey, 4 Winstigator,
4 Piledriver 4 Chieftain
4 Matron, 4 Ringleader
1 Stinger, 1 TSH

OTHER [7]
3 Tarfire
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Sylvan Library
1 Krenko

SIDEBOARD [15]
3 Pithing Needle
4 Blood Moon
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 SGC

[mistercakes]

gobo: i was playing an instigator list someone gave me from mtgo a while ago. it was pretty similar but didn't run piledrivers. are piledrivers fast enough without warchief?

i was running some pyrokinesis in the maindeck as well as a kiki-jiki and goblin settler. both were pretty good vs eldrazi. haven't tried a sylvan libary in the maindeck, seems like a good choice, same with the carpet of flowers.

list does look a bit weak vs the amount of reanimator decks showing up though.

thanks for the list.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

gobo: i was playing an instigator list someone gave me from mtgo a while ago. it was pretty similar but didn't run piledrivers. are piledrivers fast enough without warchief?

i was running some pyrokinesis in the maindeck as well as a kiki-jiki and goblin settler. both were pretty good vs eldrazi. haven't tried a sylvan libary in the maindeck, seems like a good choice, same with the carpet of flowers.

list does look a bit weak vs the amount of reanimator decks showing up though.

thanks for the list.


Surprise Piledriver's are great and all, but it's primary job in the deck is to be the common finisher in the deck. The reason we run so many is so that we have a higher chance of turning the corner as soon as possible. The goal here isn't to clock the opponent as fast as possible. It's actually pretty great that he eats Swords to Plowshares and Bolts in the mid-game. Remember, long game is good, don't be so aggressive, you'll win the long route. Chieftain fills a similar role at more mana. If your deck is naturally better in overall combat, you don't need the effect nearly as much.

[Stevestamopz]

Surprise Piledriver's are great and all, but it's primary job in the deck is to be the common finisher in the deck. The reason we run so many is so that we have a higher chance of turning the corner as soon as possible. The goal here isn't to clock the opponent as fast as possible. It's actually pretty great that he eats Swords to Plowshares and Bolts in the mid-game. Remember, long game is good, don't be so aggressive, you'll win the long route. Chieftain fills a similar role at more mana. If your deck is naturally better in overall combat, you don't need the effect nearly as much.

I'd also say that the reason to run multiple Piledrivers is so that you can drop multiple in one turn while you have a chief out and steal the game. It's not usually the 1st or 2nd Piledriver that gets them, but I would be very surprised if they had 3 or 4 blockers to stop the 3rd and 4th Piledriver. You usually only need one 9/2 Driver to seal the deal. It also feels fucking grouse to get someone with a bunch of hasty Drivers from out of literally nowhere.

[mistercakes]

I'd also say that the reason to run multiple Piledrivers is so that you can drop multiple in one turn while you have a chief out and steal the game. It's not usually the 1st or 2nd Piledriver that gets them, but I would be very surprised if they had 3 or 4 blockers to stop the 3rd and 4th Piledriver. You usually only need one 9/2 Driver to seal the deal. It also feels fucking grouse to get someone with a bunch of hasty Drivers from out of literally nowhere.



this is the reason i ask. with no warchiefs, it must be difficult to cast many.

[treach]

Hey guys, I'm going to a legacy tournament this weekend and was wondering if anyone could shed some light on prowl targets for Earwig Squad. I know about taking wincons from Elves, ANT and Miracles, but what about decks like Aluren, Tin Fins, Sneak and Show, reanimators and food chain? Do we side in additional copies against those decks? What about Lands: do we go for taking their depths if they play 3 I guess?

The mentioned decks have usually more than 3/4 wincons, and for example do we bother taking three Aluren, or go for their Parasitic Strix and Cavern Harpy with the first Earwig, considering none of the mentioned card is in the opponents hands already? Against Sneak and Show, do we get their payoff cards, or Sneak Attack/Show and Tell? I know that it depends on the sideboard and I plan to play some number of REBs and Warping Wails, but I would be more than glad if someone could tell me how they use Earwigs and what do they target against those decks (mostly Aluren, Tin fins, Sneak and Show, OmniTell, Reanimators and Food Chain). Sorry if that was discussed but I didn't find it all together for an easy lookup! :)

[jrw1985]

Hey guys, I'm going to a legacy tournament this weekend and was wondering if anyone could shed some light on prowl targets for Earwig Squad. I know about taking wincons from Elves, ANT and Miracles, but what about decks like Aluren, Tin Fins, Sneak and Show, reanimators and food chain? Do we side in additional copies against those decks? What about Lands: do we go for taking their depths if they play 3 I guess?

The mentioned decks have usually more than 3/4 wincons, and for example do we bother taking three Aluren, or go for their Parasitic Strix and Cavern Harpy with the first Earwig, considering none of the mentioned card is in the opponents hands already? Against Sneak and Show, do we get their payoff cards, or Sneak Attack/Show and Tell? I know that it depends on the sideboard and I plan to play some number of REBs and Warping Wails, but I would be more than glad if someone could tell me how they use Earwigs and what do they target against those decks (mostly Aluren, Tin fins, Sneak and Show, OmniTell, Reanimators and Food Chain). Sorry if that was discussed but I didn't find it all together for an easy lookup! :)

Earwig is not great against the decks you listed because they generally have multiple win cons, so you're going to have to be smart about how you use it. Look through the opponent's deck carefully. Feel free to sort it and separate win cons or combo pieces. Against Aluren just pull the combo pieces. Food Chain if you only see 3 of the namesake enchantment then you know they have one in hand already, so don't bother pulling that and instead remove fatties (NOT GRIFFINS). Tin Fins and Food Chain probably have a 1-of Emrakul you should grab. Tin Fins is also too fast and pretty redundant, so you should probably side out Earwig G2. Reanimator is so redundant that your only good options are pulling the Elesh Norn or any hosers they're running. Earwig is lousy against Omni and SneakShow because they usually have 8 enablers (Show n Tell, Dream halls, Sneak Attack) and 8 win cons (Emrakul, Grizz, Omni) so you can't just wipe out one half of the combo. You should board Earwig out against those decks as well.

[Sockosensei]

I agree with most of what was said above and would like to add:
Earwig might not be the kill in those matchups that it is in others, but surviving Pyroclasm or Elesh Norn (while you dig for Stingscourger) is not nothing. It all depends on how many other cards you have to board in for those matchups, while keeping your goblin-count up.

[Sandro95]

Hey guys, I'm going to a legacy tournament this weekend and was wondering if anyone could shed some light on prowl targets for Earwig Squad. I know about taking wincons from Elves, ANT and Miracles, but what about decks like Aluren, Tin Fins, Sneak and Show, reanimators and food chain? Do we side in additional copies against those decks? What about Lands: do we go for taking their depths if they play 3 I guess?

The mentioned decks have usually more than 3/4 wincons, and for example do we bother taking three Aluren, or go for their Parasitic Strix and Cavern Harpy with the first Earwig, considering none of the mentioned card is in the opponents hands already? Against Sneak and Show, do we get their payoff cards, or Sneak Attack/Show and Tell? I know that it depends on the sideboard and I plan to play some number of REBs and Warping Wails, but I would be more than glad if someone could tell me how they use Earwigs and what do they target against those decks (mostly Aluren, Tin fins, Sneak and Show, OmniTell, Reanimators and Food Chain). Sorry if that was discussed but I didn't find it all together for an easy lookup! :)

It all depends on the context. Figure out what they already have, what you can't beat, and minimize the odds of them getting it. Vs Aluren (classic version) you should almost always go for the combo pieces (I.e Strix + Harpy). Tin Fins is tougher, and Earwig Squad will often be too late. If you can beat a Griselbrand (you have karakas, stingscourger, Warren Weirding etc), take their children of korlis, emrakul, and/or Tendrils. If you're dead to Griselbrand no matter what, figure out which half of the combo they are missing and remove some of those combo pieces.
Another way to use Earwig Squad here post sideboard is to go after their anti hate cards. If you have leyline, get their chain of vapor. If you have relic, take their needle or decay etc.
Sneak and Show is a bit easier because you can usually figure out which combo pieces are in their hand already. If they have one half, go after the other. Figure out which card you are more likely to beat if it resolves/is put into play. Sometimes you can race a show and tell, other times sneak attack will be too slow. Sometimes you can survive an emrakul attack, other times you have needle for Griselbrand. Keep in mind that if they have neither of these four cards you should probably go for either Griselbrand or maybe show and tell. Without omniscience they have more ways to cheat things into play than things to cheat into play, and emrakul often gives you one more turn compared to Griselbrand. If it looks like you are set to win next turn sneak attack might be too slow, in which case you go for show and tell.
Vs Food Chain you take Emrakul or similar cards if you can grind through griffins, otherwise you leave them with a single food chain in their deck. Post board you will often take their Plague away.
OmniTell is tough. You'd prefer to be able to figure out the exact contents of their hand. Otherwise go after the part of the combo they are missing. Same with reanimator. The difference is that OmniTell is a two and a half card combo deck, Reanimator a straight up two card combo deck. Vs OmniTell you want to go go for the first two pieces (show and tell + omniscience) first, because once they have those they will have a much easier time finding the third. Vs Reanimator you can take away elesh norn and hope to beat their other threats. This works best if you have needle for Griselbrand, or their life total is low enough to negate his usefulness.
When going after reanimate spells, they all have different strengths. Cmc matters because of speed and chalice. Life loss from reanimate is very relevant. Exhume lets you return a card as well (matron for an answer for example). Animate dead makes for a slightly slower clock and is vulnerable to enchantment removal.

I'm currently working on an in depth piece on earwig squad. It won't be done I'm time before your tournament, but I will make sure to post it here once it's published. Hope my advice helps. :)

[Sandro95]

Hey guys, I'm going to a legacy tournament this weekend and was wondering if anyone could shed some light on prowl targets for Earwig Squad. I know about taking wincons from Elves, ANT and Miracles, but what about decks like Aluren, Tin Fins, Sneak and Show, reanimators and food chain? Do we side in additional copies against those decks? What about Lands: do we go for taking their depths if they play 3 I guess?

The mentioned decks have usually more than 3/4 wincons, and for example do we bother taking three Aluren, or go for their Parasitic Strix and Cavern Harpy with the first Earwig, considering none of the mentioned card is in the opponents hands already? Against Sneak and Show, do we get their payoff cards, or Sneak Attack/Show and Tell? I know that it depends on the sideboard and I plan to play some number of REBs and Warping Wails, but I would be more than glad if someone could tell me how they use Earwigs and what do they target against those decks (mostly Aluren, Tin fins, Sneak and Show, OmniTell, Reanimators and Food Chain). Sorry if that was discussed but I didn't find it all together for an easy lookup! :)

It all depends on the context. Figure out what they already have, what you can't beat, and minimize the odds of them getting it. Vs Aluren (classic version) you should almost always go for the combo pieces (I.e Strix + Harpy). Tin Fins is tougher, and Earwig Squad will often be too late. If you can beat a Griselbrand (you have karakas, stingscourger, Warren Weirding etc), take their children of korlis, emrakul, and/or Tendrils. If you're dead to Griselbrand no matter what, figure out which half of the combo they are missing and remove some of those combo pieces.
Another way to use Earwig Squad here post sideboard is to go after their anti hate cards. If you have leyline, get their chain of vapor. If you have relic, take their needle or decay etc.
Sneak and Show is a bit easier because you can usually figure out which combo pieces are in their hand already. If they have one half, go after the other. Figure out which card you are more likely to beat if it resolves/is put into play. Sometimes you can race a show and tell, other times sneak attack will be too slow. Sometimes you can survive an emrakul attack, other times you have needle for Griselbrand. Keep in mind that if they have neither of these four cards you should probably go for either Griselbrand or maybe show and tell. Without omniscience they have more ways to cheat things into play than things to cheat into play, and emrakul often gives you one more turn compared to Griselbrand. If it looks like you are set to win next turn sneak attack might be too slow, in which case you go for show and tell.
Vs Food Chain you take Emrakul or similar cards if you can grind through griffins, otherwise you leave them with a single food chain in their deck. Post board you will often take their Plague away.
OmniTell is tough. You'd prefer to be able to figure out the exact contents of their hand. Otherwise go after the part of the combo they are missing. Same with reanimator. The difference is that OmniTell is a two and a half card combo deck, Reanimator a straight up two card combo deck. Vs OmniTell you want to go go for the first two pieces (show and tell + omniscience) first, because once they have those they will have a much easier time finding the third. Vs Reanimator you can take away elesh norn and hope to beat their other threats. This works best if you have needle for Griselbrand, or their life total is low enough to negate his usefulness.
When going after reanimate spells, they all have different strengths. Cmc matters because of speed and chalice. Life loss from reanimate is very relevant. Exhume lets you return a card as well (matron for an answer for example). Animate dead makes for a slightly slower clock and is vulnerable to enchantment removal.

I'm currently working on an in depth piece on earwig squad. It won't be done I'm time before your tournament, but I will make sure to post it here once it's published. Hope my advice helps. :)

[treach]

Thanks for the feedback guys, I'll report after the tournament :)

[Olaf Forkbeard]

I'm currently working on an in depth piece on earwig squad. It won't be done I'm time before your tournament, but I will make sure to post it here once it's published. Hope my advice helps. :)

Looking forward to it.

[jrw1985]

http://tcdecks.net/format.php?format=Legacy

I was just looking through TC Decks and I was checking out the top decks from recent tournaments with over 64 players. I noticed a couple things I wanted to share, because I think they can help with building for the metagame.
1- Lots of Miracles, so we should be good there, plus maybe a few Earwig Squads
2- Few Goyfs, many Eldrazi... Relic seems bad now. Chump blockers seem good.
3- Leyline of the Void - Seems real good right now. Lotsa All-In graveyard strategies like that new BR Reanimator. Also great against Loam decks which seem to be en vogue.
4- Pithing Needle has a lot of targets

[Olaf Forkbeard]

http://tcdecks.net/format.php?format=Legacy

I was just looking through TC Decks and I was checking out the top decks from recent tournaments with over 64 players. I noticed a couple things I wanted to share, because I think they can help with building for the metagame.
1- Lots of Miracles, so we should be good there, plus maybe a few Earwig Squads
2- Few Goyfs, many Eldrazi... Relic seems bad now. Chump blockers seem good.
3- Leyline of the Void - Seems real good right now. Lotsa All-In graveyard strategies like that new BR Reanimator. Also great against Loam decks which seem to be en vogue.
4- Pithing Needle has a lot of targets

I have a tendency to prefer Surgical as my 0 cost graveyard hate, man I hate Mulligans. Interestingly Collective Brutality can't hit a Faerie Macabre from hand.

[treach]

Well, my tournament went miserably (2-4 with a BYE), faced A LOT of SFM decks (2x stoneblade, 1x d&t) and lost every time, albeit I did put a fight against stoneblades. It was either my bad luck, bad mulligan decisions and some misplays, or my opponents had the nuts (probably all of the above, eldrazi player admitted he got good draws, and I saw SFM on turn2 most of the time, d0h) but I have to play more since goblins really are not an easy deck to pilot. I also hate Jitte and Sword of Fire and Ice. Our metagame was rather fair so next time I'm thinking about packing more shatter goblins in my main.

Anyhow, I'm looking forward to more reports from you guys (more experienced pilots), especially decklists etc. I wrote a short and whiny report here (http://treach.tv/blog/legacy-goblins-kicked-at/), decklist included.

[Stevestamopz]

Well, my tournament went miserably (2-4 with a BYE), faced A LOT of SFM decks (2x stoneblade, 1x d&t) and lost every time, albeit I did put a fight against stoneblades. It was either my bad luck, bad mulligan decisions and some misplays, or my opponents had the nuts (probably all of the above, eldrazi player admitted he got good draws, and I saw SFM on turn2 most of the time, d0h) but I have to play more since goblins really are not an easy deck to pilot. I also hate Jitte and Sword of Fire and Ice. Our metagame was rather fair so next time I'm thinking about packing more shatter goblins in my main.

Anyhow, I'm looking forward to more reports from you guys (more experienced pilots), especially decklists etc. I wrote a short and whiny report here (http://treach.tv/blog/legacy-goblins-kicked-at/), decklist included.

I am of the opinion that the DnT matchup is simply not favoured for you if you play the Warchief version, but this is a rather polarising subject. Jim Davis and L10 both say that they find the matchup favoured for them so YMMV.

As for Stoneblade, I recommend watching videos on youtube of Max Tietze playing against the deck. I know that I learnt a lot watching his rather meticulous play in my earlier days with Goblins. His matches against Matt Hoey and Brian Eason stand out to me as the most memorable. His article "Goblin Tour Guide" (while outdated) is also good reading on the subject.

[GoboLord]

Well, my tournament went miserably (2-4 with a BYE), faced A LOT of SFM decks (2x stoneblade, 1x d&t) and lost every time, albeit I did put a fight against stoneblades. It was either my bad luck, bad mulligan decisions and some misplays, or my opponents had the nuts (probably all of the above, eldrazi player admitted he got good draws, and I saw SFM on turn2 most of the time, d0h) but I have to play more since goblins really are not an easy deck to pilot. I also hate Jitte and Sword of Fire and Ice. Our metagame was rather fair so next time I'm thinking about packing more shatter goblins in my main.

Anyhow, I'm looking forward to more reports from you guys (more experienced pilots), especially decklists etc. I wrote a short and whiny report here (http://treach.tv/blog/legacy-goblins-kicked-at/), decklist included.

A few words on the SFM matchups:
I would start with reading the opening post - especially the paragraph about those MU. This will help you to understand the respective keycards of each deck, as well as how games usually go.
Also, I would dare to say that your list is not as well-equipped for those MUs as it could be. Some points to consider:
* due to the lack of Mogg War Marshal your Gempalm Incinerators will have harder time dealing 2 dmg compared to other lists. dealing 2 dmg to destroy SFM (or any other potential carrier of equipments) is crucial
* the first point wouldn't necessarily be a problem if your list had enough reliable removal to make up for the "weak" Incinerators. Something like 4 Tarfire, or 2 Tarfire, 2 Pyrokinesis would do.
* as SFM matchups tend to be very grindy, your list would profit from running more cards that support a grindy strategy - that is: more Gempalm Inicnerators, more Mogg War Marshals, multiple Krenko/Siege-Gang Commanders (>2).
* In the absence of a reliable removal suite and grindy gear you could also take an alternative route and play 4 Goblin Chieftains, which help you to force you Lackeys and Piledrivers past your opponents defenses without suffering too many losses

Some suggestions for changes to your list:
* cut your toolbox: -1 Earwig Squad, -1 Chieftain, -1 Sharpshooter, -1 Warping Wail / +1 Gempalm Incinerator, +3 Mogg War Marshal
* if you are on G then Tin Street Hooligan is a better choice than Tuktuk Scrapper - the anti-synergy with Warchief is hardly ever relevant. Tuktuk Scrapper is a better choice if you are not splahing G , or if you are running Kiki-Jiki and/ or Warren Instigator. Also tuktuk scrapper is fine as a #2 copy of artifact hate (in case you like the flexibility that vial/lackey give you).
* SB: #3 shatter Goblin seems to be too much, especially when you have Krosan Grips; Warping Wail and Warren Weirding don't seem to fit in very well. In what MUs do you use them?

[treach]

Thanks for the feedback guys! I might try those changes next time for sure! Anyhow, I have Warping Wail and Warren Weirding for reanimator, ANT and Show and Tell (which are usually represented by a few players), but I didn't get to face any this time around. I find it scary if I have no answers so I stockpile on them, which is obviously a mistake.

You are right about MWM and Gempalm, and it was last minute change that I removed all of my War Marshals (had 2), which ended up being a mistake. I'm not keen on mainboard pyro, but it could be a good decision since it can lead to blowouts. Thanks again, and I'm gonna read Goblin Tour Guide now :)

[Olaf Forkbeard]

* SB: #3 shatter Goblin seems to be too much, especially when you have Krosan Grips; Warping Wail and Warren Weirding don't seem to fit in very well. In what MUs do you use them?

I can confirm that the third shatter goblin never feels incredibly relevant to me. I'm always better off with a Pithing Needle, Wear // Tear, or Ancient Grudge in my board. It gives you another angle to come at them from as well.

[mistercakes]

Played in BoM trial today. Lost finals.

R1 2-1 rug delver (no mongoose)
R2 omni tell 0-2
R3 sneak and show 2-0
R4 infect 2-0
R5 ID merfolk
Semi 2-1 merfolk
Finals rug delver (no mongoose)

List and report later.
-rob

[Dan Pyre]

Plated at GPT in Michigan today! 23 players total. Here is my list and a very brief report.
Lands (23)
11 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls

Artifacts (4)
4 Aether Vial

Instant (2)
2 Pyrokinesis

Creatures (31)
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Stingscourger

Sideboard (15)
3 Pithing Needle
3 Blood Moon
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Stingscourger
1 Pyrokinesis

I ended up going 4-1 in 5 Swiss rounds, winning against B/R Reanimator, Grixis Delver three times (twice in Swiss, once in Top 8), Death and Taxes, Shardless BUG and only losing to Jund Loam (both in Swiss and then again in Top 4).

I feel like there is literally no reason to even consider running Goblin Piledriver anymore. Driver dies to every single reasonable removal spell in the format, the protection isn't relevant nowadays and he doesn't buy time like Mogg War Marshal does. Gempalm Incinerator is absolutely insane and should be played as a 4-of in nearly every list going forward; Since Mogg War Marshal enables the 2 damage from the ability, it is hard to justify Piledriver in its slot.

Three maindeck Krenko felt GREAT! He was an absolute bomb all day. I even managed to have one stolen by an opposing Ashiok (!!!) but managed to bounce it with Stingscourger. Sadly it was then Cabal Therapied.

I'm considering running a full 4 Leyline of the Void as graveyard hate going forward. I got absolutely SMASHED by the Jund Loam deck and even though I won versus B/R reanimator, it seems like having Turn 0 interaction is realistically the best way to try to combat it.

Any other questions let me know, I'm exhausted atm so this is all I can write :)

I'll be attending GP Louisville - not sure if I'll go with this list or if I will try to get one together with Earwig Squads in it...

[mistercakes]

A bit of a mishmash of what was posted and what I like to do with goblins


4 goblin ringleader
4 goblin matron,
4 goblin lackey,
4 goblin chieftain,
4 warren instigator
2 gempalm incinerator
2 krenko, mob boss
1 kiki-jiki, mirror breaker
1 siege-gang commander
1 tuktuk scrapper
1 goblin settler
1 stingscourger
3 tarfire
4 aether vial
3 chrome mox
1 sylvan library
2 pendelhaven
3 wasteland
2 bloodstained mire
2 wooded foothills
1 scalding tarn
4 cavern of souls
5 mountain
1 taiga


Sb

2 carpet of flowers
2 surgical extraction
2 faerie macabre
1 goblin sharpshooter
1 siege-gang commander
2 magus of the moon
1 blood moon
3 pyrokinesis
1 umezawa's jitte

Not sure if the green splash is worth it, but it makes pendelhaven more useful.

I only drew Sylvan once, and it was forced. Mox wasn't extremely useful, but I did have a cool play twice of leading with wasteland + mox + tarfire their guy

Maybe not the best list, but I had fun and it fit my playstyle.

The last game in finals my opponent was on the play and mulligans to 6.

I had a hand of 2 wasteland and some other lands + the Sylvan and a lackey.

He had no basics in his deck so I went for it. Didn't really draw into anything useful and he drew brainstorm which fixed his mana. He sat on fetches until he hit two then double goyfed me and forced my Sylvan.


Not having war Marshall is rough vs goyf, but maybe I can have some in the sb for next time. Would also consider running 2 Krosan grip for any problematic enchantments.

[1GoblinLackey]

Plated at GPT in Michigan today! 23 players total. Here is my list and a very brief report.
Lands (23)
11 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls

Artifacts (4)
4 Aether Vial

Instant (2)
2 Pyrokinesis

Creatures (31)
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Stingscourger

Sideboard (15)
3 Pithing Needle
3 Blood Moon
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Stingscourger
1 Pyrokinesis

I ended up going 4-1 in 5 Swiss rounds, winning against B/R Reanimator, Grixis Delver three times (twice in Swiss, once in Top 8), Death and Taxes, Shardless BUG and only losing to Jund Loam (both in Swiss and then again in Top 4).

I feel like there is literally no reason to even consider running Goblin Piledriver anymore. Driver dies to every single reasonable removal spell in the format, the protection isn't relevant nowadays and he doesn't buy time like Mogg War Marshal does. Gempalm Incinerator is absolutely insane and should be played as a 4-of in nearly every list going forward; Since Mogg War Marshal enables the 2 damage from the ability, it is hard to justify Piledriver in its slot.

Three maindeck Krenko felt GREAT! He was an absolute bomb all day. I even managed to have one stolen by an opposing Ashiok (!!!) but managed to bounce it with Stingscourger. Sadly it was then Cabal Therapied.

I'm considering running a full 4 Leyline of the Void as graveyard hate going forward. I got absolutely SMASHED by the Jund Loam deck and even though I won versus B/R reanimator, it seems like having Turn 0 interaction is realistically the best way to try to combat it.

Any other questions let me know, I'm exhausted atm so this is all I can write :)

I'll be attending GP Louisville - not sure if I'll go with this list or if I will try to get one together with Earwig Squads in it...

I think I have to agree with you on the matter of Piledriver, Dan. He either gets chump-blocked, or removed without having any impact on the board state whatsoever. I've slowly gone from 4, to 3, to 2, 1, and now 0 and I rarely miss him. I make up for the damage output by playing a second chieftain. Chieftain + Krenko is an absolutely game-winning combo, and almost no deck can survive more than 1 activation, so they either have to right then and there, or get swamped.

I took your list and made some adjustments. I've continued to try Smuggler's Copter to good effect, though I've cut the number down to 2, which I think is the correct number if you're looking to try out Copter. I feel like 3 is good in terms of frequency of drawing it, but you often feel like you have to board one out in SB games just to make room, so I brought it to a permanent 2. I also added a pendelhaven, which I think should be a staple of the war marshal-heavy lists. I feel like an overlooked strength of the mono-red version that you have is the all basic red sources without any fetches. Starving deathrites can be surprisingly effective on occasion, and having your red sources be wasteland-proof helps a lot. I am skeptical of Siege-Gang though. He never does quite enough for me unless you're putting him in off of lackey. I much prefer running Sharpshooter. I also noticed you aren't running prospector, which I find pretty important in the matchups that involve equipment (avoiding jitte counters or batterskull lifelink is very relevant). His ability to be a kind of ritual with war marshal and krenko is also pretty powerful. What made you not run him?

[GoboLord]

Plated at GPT in Michigan today! 23 players total. Here is my list and a very brief report.
Lands (23)
11 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls

Artifacts (4)
4 Aether Vial

Instant (2)
2 Pyrokinesis

Creatures (31)
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Stingscourger

Sideboard (15)
3 Pithing Needle
3 Blood Moon
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Stingscourger
1 Pyrokinesis

I ended up going 4-1 in 5 Swiss rounds, winning against B/R Reanimator, Grixis Delver three times (twice in Swiss, once in Top 8), Death and Taxes, Shardless BUG and only losing to Jund Loam (both in Swiss and then again in Top 4).

I feel like there is literally no reason to even consider running Goblin Piledriver anymore. Driver dies to every single reasonable removal spell in the format, the protection isn't relevant nowadays and he doesn't buy time like Mogg War Marshal does. Gempalm Incinerator is absolutely insane and should be played as a 4-of in nearly every list going forward; Since Mogg War Marshal enables the 2 damage from the ability, it is hard to justify Piledriver in its slot.

Three maindeck Krenko felt GREAT! He was an absolute bomb all day. I even managed to have one stolen by an opposing Ashiok (!!!) but managed to bounce it with Stingscourger. Sadly it was then Cabal Therapied.

I'm considering running a full 4 Leyline of the Void as graveyard hate going forward. I got absolutely SMASHED by the Jund Loam deck and even though I won versus B/R reanimator, it seems like having Turn 0 interaction is realistically the best way to try to combat it.

Any other questions let me know, I'm exhausted atm so this is all I can write :)

I'll be attending GP Louisville - not sure if I'll go with this list or if I will try to get one together with Earwig Squads in it...

So, you did try the list just as you said you would.
Why did you decide against Sylvan Libraty, and more importantly, against Skirk Prospector? Especially the latter provides a lot of flexibility (e.g. using MWM as Dark Rituals under a Warchief, or turning Krenko into a mana-Factory).

[Dan Pyre]

I took your list and made some adjustments. I've continued to try Smuggler's Copter to good effect, though I've cut the number down to 2, which I think is the correct number if you're looking to try out Copter. I feel like 3 is good in terms of frequency of drawing it, but you often feel like you have to board one out in SB games just to make room, so I brought it to a permanent 2. I also added a pendelhaven, which I think should be a staple of the war marshal-heavy lists. I feel like an overlooked strength of the mono-red version that you have is the all basic red sources without any fetches. Starving deathrites can be surprisingly effective on occasion, and having your red sources be wasteland-proof helps a lot. I am skeptical of Siege-Gang though. He never does quite enough for me unless you're putting him in off of lackey. I much prefer running Sharpshooter. I also noticed you aren't running prospector, which I find pretty important in the matchups that involve equipment (avoiding jitte counters or batterskull lifelink is very relevant). His ability to be a kind of ritual with war marshal and krenko is also pretty powerful. What made you not run him?


So, you did try the list just as you said you would.
Why did you decide against Sylvan Libraty, and more importantly, against Skirk Prospector? Especially the latter provides a lot of flexibility (e.g. using MWM as Dark Rituals under a Warchief, or turning Krenko into a mana-Factory).
Regarding Sylvan Library - I really don't like needlessly exposing myself to Wasteland just to play Tin Street Hooligan and in this case Sylvan Library as well. I played R/g Goblins when Omnitell was still the best deck for the Krosan Grip but since that is no longer a popular deck I've eschewed splashing for the time being. I think for a local FNM event sometime I may try the green splash again for Library though since there aren't huge stakes on the line there :)

For Skirk Prospector, it was mostly because I had removed all of the Goblin Sharpshooters and needed to find slots for the sideboard cards. Moving Siege-Gang from the side to the main required removing Skirk. While I appreciate the idea behind generating mana with Mogg + Skirk, I'd rather have my singleton Skirk be a powerful Siege-Gang. Having Siege-Gang main means that I also don't have to dedicate a slot to Sharpshooter, either. So - two free slots! I opted for a Chieftain, as pairing him with Mogg/Krenko is absurd, and the Siege-Gang.

Siege-Gang singlehandedly won the game versus Death and Taxes for me where Skirk/Sharpshooter would not have otherwise. Also, while I appreciate Skirk's ability to dodge Batterskull/Jitte - the real problem in that matchup is Sword of Fire and Ice. Our mainboard 1-of artifact removal HAS to be dedicated to the initial Jitte or Batterskull - but then the second SFM always hits the board with the SOFI that we can no longer beat. It's also the reason I opted for Tuktuk Scrappers over Tin-Street - I'm starting to like the multiplicative artifact destruction effect and I may in fact start boarding in a 2nd copy for 3 total in these matchups - breaking 2 artifacts at once was absolutely insane (hit two Revokers on both my Krenko and Siege-Gang at the same time for the win).

Either way, I don't think that Skirk/Sharpshooter (as I played them in my list prior to this) or Sylvan Library/Tin Street are inherently WRONG, I just wanted to use a more stable and streamlined list for the event since there were byes on the line. If I manage to make an FNM, I will try them out before GP Louisville.

Are any other Chieftains going to attend? I'd love to see you there :)

[Stevestamopz]

P.Diddy continues to polarise as always, but can we please refrain from saying he is bad because he dies to removal? Please point me to the card in our deck that doesn't die to plow or bolt.

[Dan Pyre]

P.Diddy continues to polarise as always, but can we please refrain from saying he is bad because he dies to removal? Please point me to the card in our deck that doesn't die to plow or bolt.
He dies to removal without having done anything

Lackey is 1 mana for 1 mana or better removal spell
Matron is +1 cards
Ringleader is +0 to +4 Cards
Mogg War Marshal is +1.5 Cards
Siege-Gang Commander is +1.5(ish) Cards
Krenko is literal remove or die compared to Piledriver
Hastelords are remove or be overwhelmed, especially with Krenko.

You can chump block a Piledriver, but you can't chump block two turns worth of Krenko activations.

All hail our Boss, Krenko! :)

[Olaf Forkbeard]

@gobolordL I was giving your list some play testing against a small amount of our paper proxy gauntlet and had a few notes.

Ideally your list wants to commit a Krenko, perhaps a second through a kill spell, and win with it. In that vein Chieftain makes sense on paper, but I found that the lack of cost reduction on Warchief was too big a burden to lose comparatively. If I have a Krenko, then it did not matter how big the tokens were, I had a lot of them, and therefor am winning. When I was behind it didn't do much to pull me back, as all I want to do when behind was to commit cards to the board. I think If I played a list like yours again it would be with a 4/1 or 3/2 split in favor of Warchief, as the ancillary of Chieftain is still good just a tad more than niche scenarios.

3 Krenko's felt like 1 too many for me, even with him as my primary game plan. Perhaps it's just my play style, with waiting and baiting, but I never felt like I needed the third, and actually felt it as a liability against Karakas decks (which is probably why you had Siege-Gang in the board). In addition to lowering the curve by 1 or 2. I'd probably be dropping one of him on this game plan in the future.

---

@mistercakes
Good job, looking forward to it. Feels good to place high.

I would not play a list without at least 2 Mogg War Marshal right now. I'm actually trying to figure out how to fit more in my own list. I Strongly advise you don't drop him from the main, he's kind of the mid-game glue. I'd drop a finisher and something else, or perhaps 2 finisher's in your place for them. (I actually prefer Kiki-Jiki in WInstigator lists for reference though.)

I'm still not sold on Carpet of Flowers. My brain simply is telling me that it is a crutch style answer and not actually resolving the issue, but I'm willing to admit a probable bias here.

---

@Dan Pyre
Good job as well, goblins doing well all over it seems. There was a period in my career of this deck where I ran 4 Leylines, and that period lasted about 5 months. The exact scenario you are listing that you want it for, is the exact reason I stopped running it. I loathe Leyline in the fair match-ups, it's super awkward in a match that goes to a grind, as it is usually the deadest available draw in the mid game, even if you have black mana. Just my opinion on that piece.

I think I still prefer the traditional list, so I don't sync with your sentiments on Piledriver, but I do agree that GoboLords list felt like it was ignoring that gameplan anyway, so it matters less. The traditional list just has a better clock overall in my experiences, and I value that type of push.

---

I've been broke due to lack of a Job, but I recently started up one again, so maybe sometime soon I could get to play again in a competitive setting that isn't play testing. Here's to hoping. I'm getting that itch to play with something on the line.

[GoboLord]

@gobolordL I was giving your list some play testing against a small amount of our paper proxy gauntlet and had a few notes.

Ideally your list wants to commit a Krenko, perhaps a second through a kill spell, and win with it. In that vein Chieftain makes sense on paper, but I found that the lack of cost reduction on Warchief was too big a burden to lose comparatively. If I have a Krenko, then it did not matter how big the tokens were, I had a lot of them, and therefor am winning. When I was behind it didn't do much to pull me back, as all I want to do when behind was to commit cards to the board. I think If I played a list like yours again it would be with a 4/1 or 3/2 split in favor of Warchief, as the ancillary of Chieftain is still good just a tad more than niche scenarios.

3 Krenko's felt like 1 too many for me, even with him as my primary game plan. Perhaps it's just my play style, with waiting and baiting, but I never felt like I needed the third, and actually felt it as a liability against Karakas decks (which is probably why you had Siege-Gang in the board). In addition to lowering the curve by 1 or 2. I'd probably be dropping one of him on this game plan in the future.

---

@mistercakes
Good job, looking forward to it. Feels good to place high.

I would not play a list without at least 2 Mogg War Marshal right now. I'm actually trying to figure out how to fit more in my own list. I Strongly advise you don't drop him from the main, he's kind of the mid-game glue. I'd drop a finisher and something else, or perhaps 2 finisher's in your place for them. (I actually prefer Kiki-Jiki in WInstigator lists for reference though.)

I'm still not sold on Carpet of Flowers. My brain simply is telling me that it is a crutch style answer and not actually resolving the issue, but I'm willing to admit a probable bias here.

---

@Dan Pyre
Good job as well, goblins doing well all over it seems. There was a period in my career of this deck where I ran 4 Leylines, and that period lasted about 5 months. The exact scenario you are listing that you want it for, is the exact reason I stopped running it. I loathe Leyline in the fair match-ups, it's super awkward in a match that goes to a grind, as it is usually the deadest available draw in the mid game, even if you have black mana. Just my opinion on that piece.

I think I still prefer the traditional list, so I don't sync with your sentiments on Piledriver, but I do agree that GoboLords list felt like it was ignoring that gameplan anyway, so it matters less. The traditional list just has a better clock overall in my experiences, and I value that type of push.

---

I've been broke due to lack of a Job, but I recently started up one again, so maybe sometime soon I could get to play again in a competitive setting that isn't play testing. Here's to hoping. I'm getting that itch to play with something on the line.

Thanks for sharing you insights.

I agree with you on Warchief and Chieftain here. The cost reduction of Warchief is absolutely crucial, while one or two Chieftains could be nice in niche situations. I would go with a 4/1 split if anything, cutting Sylvan Library or Skirk Prospector.
Karakas is indeed a real bummer (unless you have Vial @4 + Warchief on the table, but thats a huge "unless") and thats one of the reasons for playing SGC in the board (the other one being just overloading grindy decks with finisher goblins). I don't think 3 copies of Krenko are too much tough, as I'm doing this primarily for the chances of drawing one naturally. You don't really need 3 copies if this was only as a backup in case the first one gets removed. Still, I was thinking about wether a 2-1 split between Krenko and SGC could do, but that puts you into those awkward Vial-counter-situations again. Also I think the vulerability of 3 Krenkos opposed to a 2-1 split is more pronounced in sideboarded matches because a) that puts Pithiung Needle and Phyrexian Revoker on the map and b) by that time your opponent might have noticed what you are up to. I would say (all estimated, no real data, but only an example to make my point clearer): 100% of all opponents will see the first Krenko coming, 30% will expect the second one and 0% will expect the third copy, which is definitely a huge plus, considering the powerlevel of the card that "you didn't see coming".
Therefore I'm willing to accept the few situations where Karakas and Kreko actually interact in pre-board games as corner cases (you do have Wastelands and Port yourself after all).
Krenko is a shitty replacement for Piledriver in pretty much every MU where Piledriver shines. You want to have Piledriver whenever you want a quick and dirty victory. That just not happening with the list I last played because it has very hard times winning before turn 5. As I already stated, that list is the most controllish one I ever built and I didn't get punished for it only because I dodged every form of fast combo deck on that event. So, yes this list is totally ignoring the "fast-kill" route and I can't say it felt good. Not only are combo decks more scary, but can't you shrug off a True-Names Nemesis anymore, because it will sometimes just flat out race you.

[jrw1985]

I was looking through decklists on tcdecks and checking out the top winners of recent big tournaments. I was specifically looking to see how many Anti-Combo cards decks were running in the maindeck. It was pretty enlightening. Miracles runs about 10 counterspell cards. Grixis Pyromancer runs 10-12 counters main plus 2-4 discard spells. Eldrazi runs 12-14 cards that either counter spells, make them more expensive, or removes cards from opponents hands. Even a deck like Jund or Aggro Loam that seems weak to combo will actually run 4-6 Discard spells + 2-4 Lilliana, giving them 6-10 anti-combo cards overall. Even Combo decks are packed with anti-combo cards. Show n Tell runs 8 counterspells, ANT runs 6 discard spells. The new Br Reanimator decks packs 8 discard spells + 4 Chancellors. The only decks I saw that conspicuously DON'T run anti-combo cards are Elves and Lands. Lands isn't a big contender right now, and Elves has the ability to T3 consistently enough that it can beat combo pre-board that way.

I always knew Goblins was weak to combo, but it was never so clear as to just how far behind the field we are. I always just chalked that up to us being a creature heavy deck that's strong against fair decks. But compare us to another deck that's creature dense, Death and Taxes, and it's clear just how much weaker we are against combo than them. Between the Thalias, Prelates and Revokers DnT is running 12-16+ combo hating creatures pre-board.

We run 0 combo hating goblins generally. Sometimes we run 1-3 Earwig squad.

It seems that we are very low on our anti-combo cards in the maindeck, and it seems a little unreasonable that Goblins hasn't evolved to run more. We can easily run 1-3 MD Earwig Squad which is obviously a very strong card against a lot of combo decks (though not all), and it's weaknesses against some combo decks is more than made up for by it almost single-handedly destroying Miracles. Since Earwig is literally the only anti-combo goblin we should probably be running discard with the B splash as well. Cabal Therapy seems like the obvious card to run since we have so many bodies to spare for the flashback, especially Mogg War Marshal. I know Sandro has had a lot of success mainboarding 2 CTs in the past. I think the number could be a little higher, maybe 3-4. The top performing decks right now are running a bare-minimum of 6 anti-combo cards in the maindeck.

I mocked up a quick list that I think I'll try out the next time I bring the gobbos to a tourney...

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Ringleader

6 Removal

3 Earwig Squad
3 Cabal Therapy

4-6 Flex

22-24 Lands

Are the removal and flex slots sufficient?

What do the other Goblin pilots out there think?

[Chatto]

Well, if you are going to play Cabal Therapy wouldn't you play it alongside MWM? That would make your removal-suit also pretty obvious, right? So, to fill in the gaps:

3-4 Incinerator
1-2 Pyrokinesis
0-1 Warren Weirding

2-3 Mogg War Marshal
1-2 Goblin Piledriver (or drop it for something like 1 Krenko and one Chieftain)

I don't know if it's sufficient, though.

Ow, and aren't you one card short?

EDIT: Lands plays Sphere of Resistance or Chalice of the Void. Alongside Mox D, and paired with manadenial, it can be fast enough. Still, Lands is indeed very weak against Combo in general.

[jrw1985]

Well, if you are going to play Cabal Therapy wouldn't you play it alongside MWM? That would make your removal-suit also pretty obvious, right? So, to fill in the gaps:

3-4 Incinerator
1-2 Pyrokinesis
0-1 Warren Weirding

2-3 Mogg War Marshal
1-2 Goblin Piledriver (or drop it for something like 1 Krenko and one Chieftain)

I don't know if it's sufficient, though.

Ow, and aren't you one card short?

EDIT: Lands plays Sphere of Resistance or Chalice of the Void. Alongside Mox D, and paired with manadenial, it can be fast enough. Still, Lands is indeed very weak against Combo in general.

Fixed! Thanks. 4-6 Flex spots depending on whether you're running 22-24 lands.

[GoboLord]

Good approach, Jon. The old question remains whether you want to take that route and make a miserable MU slightly less miserable. The package of Earwig Squad and Therapy would be the way to go as they are most flexible.
@ Chatto: definitely wouldnt run Kinesis in that list with so "many" non-red and non-creature spells. MWM is definitely tje way to go though.
I played a similar list a while back. Need to see if I can find it some where (pretty sure it would be connect es to a tournament report)

[Chatto]

Good approach, Jon. The old question remains whether you want to take that route and make a miserable MU slightly less miserable. The package of Earwig Squad and Therapy would be the way to go as they are most flexible.
@ Chatto: definitely wouldnt run Kinesis in that list with so "many" non-red and non-creature spells. MWM is definitely tje way to go though.
I played a similar list a while back. Need to see if I can find it some where (pretty sure it would be connect es to a tournament report)

I think you are right. Depending on the manabase you could swap them for Dismember? Or just good ol' Tarfire.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

It appears I will be heading the PTQ's in Kentucky, USA, in two weeks.

I'm curious about something. Ever since the introduction of Recruiter of the Guard, I've felt D&T slip from a 50% matchup to about a 40% matchup. What are your guy's plan for the match since the changes?

[GoboLord]

No changes to be honest. The MU is still about Mother, Equipments and Flying beaters vs. Removal, Pithing Needle and cardadvantage. I find Pithing Needle the strongest card in this MU followed by Pkinesis. And the MU definitely feels positive still.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

No changes to be honest. The MU is still about Mother, Equipments and Flying beaters vs. Removal, Pithing Needle and cardadvantage. I find Pithing Needle the strongest card in this MU followed by Pkinesis. And the MU definitely feels positive still.

If that's the case it must be my build. How many Shatter-like cards do you have post board? How much removal are you running?

[GoboLord]

If that's the case it must be my build. How many Shatter-like cards do you have post board? How much removal are you running?

1 Shatter Goblin MD
0-1 Shatter Goblins SB
3 Pithing Needle SB

Removal:
2 Kinesis MD
4 Gempalm Incinerator MD
1 Kinesis SB
1 Dismember SB

[Olaf Forkbeard]

1 Shatter Goblin MD
0-1 Shatter Goblins SB
3 Pithing Needle SB

Removal:
2 Kinesis MD
4 Gempalm Incinerator MD
1 Kinesis SB
1 Dismember SB

That's not so different than my own honestly. If memory serves the match up is really skill intensive, maybe I'm just playing against a better opponents than I am used to.

[kinda]

I was looking through decklists on tcdecks and checking out the top winners of recent big tournaments. I was specifically looking to see how many Anti-Combo cards decks were running in the maindeck. It was pretty enlightening. Miracles runs about 10 counterspell cards. Grixis Pyromancer runs 10-12 counters main plus 2-4 discard spells. Eldrazi runs 12-14 cards that either counter spells, make them more expensive, or removes cards from opponents hands. Even a deck like Jund or Aggro Loam that seems weak to combo will actually run 4-6 Discard spells + 2-4 Lilliana, giving them 6-10 anti-combo cards overall. Even Combo decks are packed with anti-combo cards. Show n Tell runs 8 counterspells, ANT runs 6 discard spells. The new Br Reanimator decks packs 8 discard spells + 4 Chancellors. The only decks I saw that conspicuously DON'T run anti-combo cards are Elves and Lands. Lands isn't a big contender right now, and Elves has the ability to T3 consistently enough that it can beat combo pre-board that way.

I always knew Goblins was weak to combo, but it was never so clear as to just how far behind the field we are. I always just chalked that up to us being a creature heavy deck that's strong against fair decks. But compare us to another deck that's creature dense, Death and Taxes, and it's clear just how much weaker we are against combo than them. Between the Thalias, Prelates and Revokers DnT is running 12-16+ combo hating creatures pre-board.

We run 0 combo hating goblins generally. Sometimes we run 1-3 Earwig squad.

It seems that we are very low on our anti-combo cards in the maindeck, and it seems a little unreasonable that Goblins hasn't evolved to run more. We can easily run 1-3 MD Earwig Squad which is obviously a very strong card against a lot of combo decks (though not all), and it's weaknesses against some combo decks is more than made up for by it almost single-handedly destroying Miracles. Since Earwig is literally the only anti-combo goblin we should probably be running discard with the B splash as well. Cabal Therapy seems like the obvious card to run since we have so many bodies to spare for the flashback, especially Mogg War Marshal. I know Sandro has had a lot of success mainboarding 2 CTs in the past. I think the number could be a little higher, maybe 3-4. The top performing decks right now are running a bare-minimum of 6 anti-combo cards in the maindeck.

I mocked up a quick list that I think I'll try out the next time I bring the gobbos to a tourney...

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Ringleader

6 Removal

3 Earwig Squad
3 Cabal Therapy

4-6 Flex

22-24 Lands

Are the removal and flex slots sufficient?

What do the other Goblin pilots out there think?

Agreed, but not sure if there is a solution. I feel like the best plan is to limit playing goblins to local events and hope to dodge reanimator/storm/other quick combo. Or transition to a stompy winstigator list like possibly below...but eldrazi is probably just better.

MANA [24]
4 Caverns, 4 Chrome Mox, 2 badlands
2 Pendelhaven,
4 Mountain,
1 Taiga, 5 Fetchlands
2 lotus petal

Goblins [32]
4 Winstigator, 3 warchief
4 Piledriver 3 Chieftain
4 Matron, 4 Ringleader
1 Stinger, 1 TSH
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 SGC
2 earwig squad
3 warren weirding

OTHER [4]
4 chalice of the void

SIDEBOARD [15]
3 aether vial
2 TSH
4 leyline of the void
3 pyrokinesis
3 mindbreak trap

[kinda]

Double post...are there any anti graveyard or anti combo goblins other than earwig squad I am forgetting?

[mistercakes]

I think the consistency you lose from dropping lackey and Vial aren't worth the chalices. Also no wastelands which are an important way to disrupt through combo.

[kinda]

I think the consistency you lose from dropping lackey and Vial aren't worth the chalices. Also no wastelands which are an important way to disrupt through combo.

I'm sure you're right for many matchups, but even Merfolk is playing chalice these days. The lackey vial build is awful to somewhat unfavored vs storm variants, show and tell variants, reanimator variants, lands, even death and taxes these days. I think a chalice/therapy build plus earwig squad is necessary now if you want a legit chance at bigger events.

[Stevestamopz]

I'm sure you're right for many matchups, but even Merfolk is playing chalice these days. The lackey vial build is awful to somewhat unfavored vs storm variants, show and tell variants, reanimator variants, lands, even death and taxes these days. I think a chalice/therapy build plus earwig squad is necessary now if you want a legit chance at bigger events.

I see what you're saying, but I don't think that any Goblin deck outside of Goblin Stompy has a chance to do anything at a reasonable sized event. If you want to play this deck, I think you can only play it for fun. The power level of legacy has exploded since 2013 which was basically when Goblins started to fall completely out of relevancy, and it's not like we've had any printings at all since like... what, 2007?

If I wanted to win a tournament now I would play either Miracles, DnT or Sneak and Show. I definitely would not play any deck with 4x Ringleader in it.

[mistercakes]

I think the best bet vs combo is to keep the deck pretty linear, run some cabal therapy and graveyard hate in the sb. The deck is very good Vs a lot of other decks and watering it down won't help. At least the miracles matchup is pretty favorable.

[Sagratho]

What abouth put on guide, how to deal with Merfolks??

Merfolks Spells are cheepier than gobbos spells, and that stingscourger merfolk is very strong. Merfolks spells is 2 manas 3/3 or 4/4... and goblins are 3~4 manas for a 2/2 body.

Piledriver is not strong as it was before. They cant stop piledriver with Dismember and Mutavault... and if the Vial is on Two, they can copy any goblin with phantasmal illusion and block piledriver.

And they hav true-name nemesis with jitte... this match is very hard now.

[Chatto]

What abouth put on guide, how to deal with Merfolks??

Merfolks Spells are cheepier than gobbos spells, and that stingscourger merfolk is very strong. Merfolks spells is 2 manas 3/3 or 4/4... and goblins are 3~4 manas for a 2/2 body.

Piledriver is not strong as it was before. They cant stop piledriver with Dismember and Mutavault... and if the Vial is on Two, they can copy any goblin with phantasmal illusion and block piledriver.

And they hav true-name nemesis with jitte... this match is very hard now.

Hi new one! I'm not sure I follow you.

1. Depending in your build Merfolk, but Merfolk usually isn't hard.
2. Play your removal in their Lords.
3. Overwhelm in superior numbers.

A Jitte or TNN can be tough, but Piledriver will get you there. Also, Image is blue, and remains blue, but correct me if I'm wrong.

I haven't seen Merfolk in agea to be honest.

[Stevestamopz]

What abouth put on guide, how to deal with Merfolks??

Merfolks Spells are cheepier than gobbos spells, and that stingscourger merfolk is very strong. Merfolks spells is 2 manas 3/3 or 4/4... and goblins are 3~4 manas for a 2/2 body.

Piledriver is not strong as it was before. They cant stop piledriver with Dismember and Mutavault... and if the Vial is on Two, they can copy any goblin with phantasmal illusion and block piledriver.

And they hav true-name nemesis with jitte... this match is very hard now.

Merfolk is basically the same now as it was in 2010. This is a decent read on it despite being 6 years old: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/20158_Insider_Information_Goblins_in_Legacy.html (lol @ people whining about Survival given what the format looks like now).

[Sagratho]

Merfolk is basically the same now as it was in 2010. This is a decent read on it despite being 6 years old: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/20158_Insider_Information_Goblins_in_Legacy.html (lol @ people whining about Survival given what the format looks like now).

No man... merfolks looks like this http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14179&d=284463

with -1 Cavern, -1 Mutavalt +2 wasteland (and -1 vendillion +1 merrow reejerey)




1. Depending in your build Merfolk, but Merfolk usually isn't hard.
2. Play your removal in their Lords.
3. Overwhelm in superior numbers.

A Jitte or TNN can be tough, but Piledriver will get you there. Also, Image is blue, and remains blue, but correct me if I'm wrong.


Phantasmall is not blue.

The point is... we have no time to "Overwhelm in superior numbers" without a good vial.

Merfolks plays with 2~3 wastelands, and they are more mana effient than us and have FoW on backup. Its like RUG Delver/ UWR Patriot Match.

Thats my Build

Lands
4 Mountain
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Arid Mesa
2 Plateau

Creatures
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Piledriver
2 Krenko, Mob Boss
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Chieftain
2 Mogg War Marshal
1 Warren Instigator
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger

Spells
4 AEther Vial
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Tarfire

Sideboard
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Blood Moon
2 Wear/Tear
2 Rest in Peace
2 Warping Wail
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

[Chatto]

Superior numbers in cards, and creatures. It can be done, but again, I haven't seen Merfolk in ages (not when playing Goblins, or another deck), so my mind is a bit fuzzy on the details.

[Stevestamopz]

The lists are the same in general. Irrelevant countermagic, 8-10 lords, 4 TNN and Silvergils and Cursecatchers. You build your board while killing theirs. You can definitely lose but it's usually cos you drew like shit and/or they just exploded onto the board and tapped out every single turn.

Goblins is still favoured IMO no matter what your build is. Krenko and Piledriver equally dominate against a blue creature deck that has no way to catch up on cards. Just keep in your hooligan and brind in the 2nd if you have it in the sb. I wouldn't bring in Grudge/Grip though. Just pyrokinesis the absolute fuck out of them and clean up on aisle 4 with a Siege Gang or Ringleader.

[ScatmanX]

My feeling when I played this Tuesday. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeBjhpw_Ee0)
Boys and girls, I bought my ticket for Eternal Weekend in Paris, so that means I'll be back here more often. Didn't even knew we had a new Thread. I looks awesome by the way. Thanks a lot.

Seen a couple of topics in this baby thread, and would like to chime in a few:
- Winstigator list:
4 Mountain
5 Fetch
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Pendelhaven
2 Chrome Mox

4 Aether Vial,Lackey, Matron, Ringleader
3 Warchief, Goblin Chieftain, Piledriver, Instigator

2 Pyrokinesis
1 Tarfire
3 Gempalm

1 Krenko,Kiki-Jiki,SGC, TSH

SB:
2 Pithing Needle
3 Blood Moon

1 Earwig Squad
1 Stingscourger
2 Tin-Street Hooligan
1 Ancient Grudge

2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pyrokinesis
Extremely greedy, but has everything that you need apart from combo hate. 1 of each hastelord and 2 drop to be able to play them all and 3 bombs.
Played it this Tuesday and went 4-0 beating Grixis Delver 2-0, Death n Taxes 2-1, AnT 2-1, Shardless BUG 2-1.
TSH, Kinesis and Blood moon were phenomenal. Squad won a game against AnT.

- Merfolk:
The deck has become much more difficult to win. TNN, better 2 drops, Dismember... and they play Jitte and have Mutavault. It is not easy, and you have to play very carefully. Watch out for TNN into 2 Phantasmal Images providing a 2turn clock. We can't play the super control game like I liked playing years ago. Kinesis is very good in the matchup, and I love TSH. Wouldn't board anything else apart from that. Instigator is also bonkers (better than Piledriver T2) being a must block. Steve got the MU right. And Krenko is pretty much a win as well.

- Combo Hate:
My philosophy right now is to dodge it. Accept the loss and focus on MU's yo can get to favourable post SB.
From intense testing we found out that to reliably have a shot against combo you need to play about 9 combo hate cards. That is just too much space imo, even if you play with flexible cards like CotV and stuff. If you REALLY want to go for beating combo, I guess the 3 Therapy and 2 Squad MD can be done, but I'd also splash W for Thalias post board to hit them in multiple angles. Could sketch a list if anyone interested.

- Tuktuk the Explorer
Yes, this is a card that we can use, and it can be good. But I'd only consider playing it again in a heavy Eldrazy/Shardless meta. It can be good Vs other Goys and stuff, but it's quite mediocre otherwise, and only shines against those 2 decks. I'm gonna start tuning my deck again, and see if he makes the cut. I'll start with the list I played in Prague (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=954510&viewfull=1#post954510).
Feels good to write here again =]

[Dan Pyre]

Guys and gals, while Brainstor- er I mean Ringleader'ing on my final decklist to bring to Louisville, I think I've had an epiphany.

I've been on 'Piledriver sucks' plan for a few months now and I've had decent results. Driver just doesn't match up well versus Eldrazi, Death and Taxes, Elves, Angler decks, Pyromancer chumps, Abrupt Decay, Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt, Dismember... you catch my drift. The 4x Mogg War Marshal + 4x Gempalm Incinerator plan has been my go-to removal and card advantage suite and I haven't missed Piledriver compared to them at all.

Except...

There's only so much room in the sideboard for combo hate, if at all; There's a school of thought that relies entirely around 'dodge combo' as our way to win events. In reality, we DO want Piledriver in our deck versus Combo as a way to race them down before they have a chance to kill us. But, running Piledrivers against Thalias and removal all day doesn't seem very helpful.

WHAT IF

Piledriver IS the sideboard combo hate? You don't maindeck any so that your matchups against 'fair' decks doesn't suffer randomly ('Man, I have to go all in against this Angler and hope he doesn't Decay or I'm dead either way' as opposed to 'I'll just Mogg War Marshal and buy 3 turns' etc etc)

BUT

You get to bring it in against Storm, Sneak n Show, Reanimator(s), Infect, Miracles (to an extent, I suppose), Omnitell, Lands whatever you get the gist
Surely I'll still be running Pithing Needles, Moons and some form of graveyard hate (probably Leyline of the Void, everything else seems too slow really), but that leaves about 5-6 slots and fitting 3 Piledrivers there instead of the maindeck seems like it might be a decent idea.

Feel free to tell me how much of an idiot I am but I would love to see some discussion regarding this idea.

TL;DR: Piledrivers in the sideboard to be fast when we need it, but not lose to creature matchups in Game 1 where we weren't favored to beat combo anyway.

[kinda]

My feeling when I played this Tuesday. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeBjhpw_Ee0)
Boys and girls, I bought my ticket for Eternal Weekend in Paris, so that means I'll be back here more often. Didn't even knew we had a new Thread. I looks awesome by the way. Thanks a lot.

Seen a couple of topics in this baby thread, and would like to chime in a few:
- Winstigator list:
4 Mountain
5 Fetch
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Pendelhaven
2 Chrome Mox

4 Aether Vial,Lackey, Matron, Ringleader
3 Warchief, Goblin Chieftain, Piledriver, Instigator

2 Pyrokinesis
1 Tarfire
3 Gempalm

1 Krenko,Kiki-Jiki,SGC, TSH

SB:
2 Pithing Needle
3 Blood Moon

1 Earwig Squad
1 Stingscourger
2 Tin-Street Hooligan
1 Ancient Grudge

2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pyrokinesis
Extremely greedy, but has everything that you need apart from combo hate. 1 of each hastelord and 2 drop to be able to play them all and 3 bombs.
Played it this Tuesday and went 4-0 beating Grixis Delver 2-0, Death n Taxes 2-1, AnT 2-1, Shardless BUG 2-1.
TSH, Kinesis and Blood moon were phenomenal. Squad won a game against AnT.

- Merfolk:
The deck has become much more difficult to win. TNN, better 2 drops, Dismember... and they play Jitte and have Mutavault. It is not easy, and you have to play very carefully. Watch out for TNN into 2 Phantasmal Images providing a 2turn clock. We can't play the super control game like I liked playing years ago. Kinesis is very good in the matchup, and I love TSH. Wouldn't board anything else apart from that. Instigator is also bonkers (better than Piledriver T2) being a must block. Steve got the MU right. And Krenko is pretty much a win as well.

- Combo Hate:
My philosophy right now is to dodge it. Accept the loss and focus on MU's yo can get to favourable post SB.
From intense testing we found out that to reliably have a shot against combo you need to play about 9 combo hate cards. That is just too much space imo, even if you play with flexible cards like CotV and stuff. If you REALLY want to go for beating combo, I guess the 3 Therapy and 2 Squad MD can be done, but I'd also splash W for Thalias post board to hit them in multiple angles. Could sketch a list if anyone interested.

- Tuktuk the Explorer
Yes, this is a card that we can use, and it can be good. But I'd only consider playing it again in a heavy Eldrazy/Shardless meta. It can be good Vs other Goys and stuff, but it's quite mediocre otherwise, and only shines against those 2 decks. I'm gonna start tuning my deck again, and see if he makes the cut. I'll start with the list I played in Prague (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=954510&viewfull=1#post954510).
Feels good to write here again =]

Is 4 lackey and 3 instigator necessary? I bet 1/2 earwig squad could get squeezed into the main.

[Sagratho]

Why run Pithing Needle, if u have 3 artifact hate on SB?

[mistercakes]

Why run Pithing Needle, if u have 3 artifact hate on SB?

pithing needle is also good vs non artifacts :) (sneak attack and griselbrand are some of the major ones that come to mind).

[ScatmanX]

@Dan:
I get you logic, but I really don't think it would work. with Piledriver we get games that we can win T3. Even if (and it isn't) we could win 75% of the games T3, we'd still be unfavourable against all those combo decks, and against the rest, there are better cards. So even though I get your point, I think is better to go either all in to beat combo, or don't bother at all and pray to dodge or that they fizzle or their deck suddenly burst into flames.


Is 4 lackey and 3 instigator necessary? I bet 1/2 earwig squad could get squeezed into the main.
For the sake of what I want this version to do, yes. Even 4 Instigators could be played. And yes, Squad would be cool MD. I just didn't want to cut any of my bombs, or flex, or any cards. It was the last card to be put on the sb to get to 60 tbh, so feel free to cut anything to squeeze it in.


Why run Pithing Needle, if u have 3 artifact hate on SB?
Needle can stop Sneak and Grizzle as mentioned, but also stops: Top (Miracles) Wirewood Symbiote (Elves), Grindstone before it's too late (Painter), Many cards in Lands, and has quite a few application in lots of other MU's, but those 4 are probably the main reason to play at least 2 nowadays.

[Sagratho]

Needle can stop Sneak and Grizzle as mentioned, but also stops: Top (Miracles) Wirewood Symbiote (Elves), Grindstone before it's too late (Painter), Many cards in Lands, and has quite a few application in lots of other MU's, but those 4 are probably the main reason to play at least 2 nowadays.

Ok, cool. i see that needle its usefull in Warren Instigator Build. Cuz i run 4 rishadan and 3 blood moon to try to stop lands and Painter i hav a lot of artifact hate.

I hav another question.

I was running the instigator list... but it always brick when get wasted and double red mana is an permanent issue. So i start read some articles and watch videos on youtube from Jim Javis (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYbnisCh7pI) and i think the classic build is better than any other, as Max Tieze and Jim Davis always play with that build.

So whats the main trouble that classic build cant deal that force us to play with a different build or an hibrid one like yours?

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Ok, cool. i see that needle its usefull in Warren Instigator Build. Cuz i run 4 rishadan and 3 blood moon to try to stop lands and Painter i hav a lot of artifact hate.

I hav another question.

I was running the instigator list... but it always brick when get wasted and double red mana is an permanent issue. So i start read some articles and watch videos on youtube from Jim Javis (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYbnisCh7pI) and i think the classic build is better than any other, as Max Tieze and Jim Davis always play with that build.

So whats the main trouble that classic build cant deal that force us to play with a different build or an hibrid one like yours?

The classic build is slow. That's literally it. Any attempt to run Warren Instigator is an attempt to skip the curve even harder, running 12 ways to ignore your own mana (Lackey, Instigator, Vial). I personally don't like how all in it feels, and have had success piloting any other Classic build comparatively, where I've had volatile success with WInstigator builds. Like I'll 4-0 or 0-4. It doesn't feel as consistent to me, and I value consistency over pretty much everything else when going to a larger event.

---

Can I get a show of hands of people heading to Louisville; perhaps we could meet up? So far I see Dan Pyre.

[Dan Pyre]

Can I get a show of hands of people heading to Louisville; perhaps we could meet up? So far I see Dan Pyre.
In! :)

Also, there's a Legacy Goblins Facebook page here: It'll be pretty easy to organize a meetup from that group during the event, what with notifications and group chat and all. (I'm Brennan in the group)

Legacy Goblins Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/groups/1052422631458803/)


@Dan:
...and pray to dodge or that they fizzle or their deck suddenly burst into flames.

Hopefully the last one :)

[1GoblinLackey]

Guys and gals, while Brainstor- er I mean Ringleader'ing on my final decklist to bring to Louisville, I think I've had an epiphany.

I've been on 'Piledriver sucks' plan for a few months now and I've had decent results. Driver just doesn't match up well versus Eldrazi, Death and Taxes, Elves, Angler decks, Pyromancer chumps, Abrupt Decay, Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt, Dismember... you catch my drift. The 4x Mogg War Marshal + 4x Gempalm Incinerator plan has been my go-to removal and card advantage suite and I haven't missed Piledriver compared to them at all.

Except...

There's only so much room in the sideboard for combo hate, if at all; There's a school of thought that relies entirely around 'dodge combo' as our way to win events. In reality, we DO want Piledriver in our deck versus Combo as a way to race them down before they have a chance to kill us. But, running Piledrivers against Thalias and removal all day doesn't seem very helpful.

WHAT IF

Piledriver IS the sideboard combo hate? You don't maindeck any so that your matchups against 'fair' decks doesn't suffer randomly ('Man, I have to go all in against this Angler and hope he doesn't Decay or I'm dead either way' as opposed to 'I'll just Mogg War Marshal and buy 3 turns' etc etc)

BUT

You get to bring it in against Storm, Sneak n Show, Reanimator(s), Infect, Miracles (to an extent, I suppose), Omnitell, Lands whatever you get the gist
Surely I'll still be running Pithing Needles, Moons and some form of graveyard hate (probably Leyline of the Void, everything else seems too slow really), but that leaves about 5-6 slots and fitting 3 Piledrivers there instead of the maindeck seems like it might be a decent idea.

Feel free to tell me how much of an idiot I am but I would love to see some discussion regarding this idea.

TL;DR: Piledrivers in the sideboard to be fast when we need it, but not lose to creature matchups in Game 1 where we weren't favored to beat combo anyway.

I've been on this kind of train of thought for the last month or so (probably pushed into that direction by testing Smuggler's Copter) and it makes sense to me. At my current point, I like having 1 Piledriver maindeck just as a matron target. There are some games where you're just slowly dying to a TNN or something along those lines and you have a warchief in play, you draw matron, and nothing but 'driver wins you the game on the spot. For me, copter is a more consistent damage-dealer across a game. With piledriver, you almost never get more than 1 swing in, and connecting is difficult. Copter smacks in for 3 always, and gets some value through looting (I have had slight issues with looting though, and perhaps I should not loot as often as I do; I don't play with looters often so I suppose it'll come with practice). War Marshal complements Copter well, and crewing is basically a non-issue. I like 2 in any of the War Marshal-heavy builds.

Aside, but do you see a significant benefit of going 4x gempalm over 3x gempalm 1 tarfire? I like having the 1of tarfire, if for nothing else to have the capability of killing a t1 DRS or Mom on the draw. I rarely have games where I actually churn through 3 gempalms, so the 4th seems a little unnecessary.

[Dan Pyre]

Aside, but do you see a significant benefit of going 4x gempalm over 3x gempalm 1 tarfire? I like having the 1of tarfire, if for nothing else to have the capability of killing a t1 DRS or Mom on the draw. I rarely have games where I actually churn through 3 gempalms, so the 4th seems a little unnecessary.
My reasoning has been this:

As much as a problem Deathrite and company have been for our Turn 1 Lackeys, in reality we should not be banking on them connecting versus ANY fair deck the first turn (1/2 creature or otherwise). A smart rule of thumb for playing against Goblins is 'always block the Lackey, don't NOT block the Lackey.' Naturally, Tarfire is a great way for us to circumvent this particular strategy to enable to to connect, especially on the draw as you say.

However, the emergence of Eldrazi in particular has made Tarfire a far less appealing choice for me:

-Chalice on 1
-Doesn't replace itself
-Doesn't scale
-Awkward interaction when trying to double up on Reality Smasher
-Can't kill Thought-Knot or a big enough Endless One

Our whole game plan against Eldrazi hinges on creating a board state and attacking their mana. By default, we should be running out our creatures as quickly as we can against them and then use the Gempalm Incinerator to create 0 for 1 exchanges while they only draw one card a turn.

Another minor point is that it is not counterable by conventional countermagic (against Delver and Infect decks, for example) so it is easier to pull kills off with Gempalm than Tarfire.

However, I'd say in the WINstigator version of Goblins that Tarfire is irreplaceable as it is entirely designed to drop one of 8 Lackey effects on the first turn, so connecting with that version of the deck immediately is important. However, for my current Classic version with 4x Mogg War Marshal and 4x Gempalm, the constant card advantage, board presence and nigh uncounterable removal has been a huge blessing. YMMV :)

TL;DR: I plan to out grind DRS/Mother decks anyway so I'm not worried about Tarfire on the first turn, I'd rather create 0 for 1 exchanges. Also Eldrazi.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

In! :)

Also, there's a Legacy Goblins Facebook page here: It'll be pretty easy to organize a meetup from that group during the event, what with notifications and group chat and all. (I'm Brennan in the group)

Legacy Goblins Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/groups/1052422631458803/)


Hopefully the last one :)

Consider me behind the times. I do not have, nor intend, to have a Facebook account. Mind if I get in contact a different route?

---


My reasoning has been this:

As much as a problem Deathrite and company have been for our Turn 1 Lackeys, in reality we should not be banking on them connecting versus ANY fair deck the first turn (1/2 creature or otherwise). A smart rule of thumb for playing against Goblins is 'always block the Lackey, don't NOT block the Lackey.' Naturally, Tarfire is a great way for us to circumvent this particular strategy to enable to to connect, especially on the draw as you say.

However, the emergence of Eldrazi in particular has made Tarfire a far less appealing choice for me:

-Chalice on 1
-Doesn't replace itself
-Doesn't scale
-Awkward interaction when trying to double up on Reality Smasher
-Can't kill Thought-Knot or a big enough Endless One

Our whole game plan against Eldrazi hinges on creating a board state and attacking their mana. By default, we should be running out our creatures as quickly as we can against them and then use the Gempalm Incinerator to create 0 for 1 exchanges while they only draw one card a turn.

Another minor point is that it is not counterable by conventional countermagic (against Delver and Infect decks, for example) so it is easier to pull kills off with Gempalm than Tarfire.

However, I'd say in the WINstigator version of Goblins that Tarfire is irreplaceable as it is entirely designed to drop one of 8 Lackey effects on the first turn, so connecting with that version of the deck immediately is important. However, for my current Classic version with 4x Mogg War Marshal and 4x Gempalm, the constant card advantage, board presence and nigh uncounterable removal has been a huge blessing. YMMV :)

TL;DR: I plan to out grind DRS/Mother decks anyway so I'm not worried about Tarfire on the first turn, I'd rather create 0 for 1 exchanges. Also Eldrazi.

I'm probably going to end up on a 3/3 split between Gempalm and Tarfire. I really like naturally drawing Tarfire, but it has the mentioned drawbacks. Despite the D&T match-up being a Grind, I do not like the idea of multiple Gempalms being shut off with a Revoker. A diverse kill spell suite seems important to me, and I expect this deck to move up through the ranks this weekend. If Blood Moon is well placed, which I believe it currently is, Mana denial in general is.

---

A new kill spell is going to rear it's head in Legacy.

http://i.tcgplayer.com/126331_200w.jpg

That's going to make the BUG Match-ups harder, as they will have a MB answer to Krenko.

[Dan Pyre]

Consider me behind the times. I do not have, nor intend, to have a Facebook account. Mind if I get in contact a different route?

---



I'm probably going to end up on a 3/3 split between Gempalm and Tarfire. I really like naturally drawing Tarfire, but it has the mentioned drawbacks. Despite the D&T match-up being a Grind, I do not like the idea of multiple Gempalms being shut off with a Revoker. A diverse kill spell suite seems important to me, and I expect this deck to move up through the ranks this weekend. If Blood Moon is well placed, which I believe it currently is, Mana denial in general is.
Create a FB account specifically for the FB group to communicate during the event? :P

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Create a FB account specifically for the FB group to communicate during the event? :P

I've begrudgingly joined the hivemind.

[16km]

http://i.imgur.com/Y5AumKu.jpg

Do you think playing Metallic Mimic with a Murderous Redcap could be an alternate win-con?

You'd need this, Murderous Redcap and Skirk Prospector. Assuming they can't counter/destroy any of the pieces, you'd win on the spot? However a 3 card combo seems like it might be difficult to get on the board.

Goblin Welder could help against some removal? Although it might clutter up the deck with things that take away from the aggro route. In the time it takes to setup, you could have killed them with aggro, but if you're able to secure the pieces in hand in a grindier matchup, you could just drop in the combo.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

http://i.imgur.com/Y5AumKu.jpg

Do you think playing Metallic Mimic with a Murderous Redcap could be an alternate win-con?

You'd need this, Murderous Redcap and Skirk Prospector. Assuming they can't counter/destroy any of the pieces, you'd win on the spot? However a 3 card combo seems like it might be difficult to get on the board.

Goblin Welder could help against some removal? Although it might clutter up the deck with things that take away from the aggro route. In the time it takes to setup, you could have killed them with aggro, but if you're able to secure the pieces in hand in a grindier matchup, you could just drop in the combo.

Put a list together that can do it, and test it. Always looking for innovation, despite my love for the core. The conversation is almost more important than the result.

[GoboLord]

Guys and gals, while Brainstor- er I mean Ringleader'ing on my final decklist to bring to Louisville, I think I've had an epiphany.

I've been on 'Piledriver sucks' plan for a few months now and I've had decent results. Driver just doesn't match up well versus Eldrazi, Death and Taxes, Elves, Angler decks, Pyromancer chumps, Abrupt Decay, Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt, Dismember... you catch my drift. The 4x Mogg War Marshal + 4x Gempalm Incinerator plan has been my go-to removal and card advantage suite and I haven't missed Piledriver compared to them at all.

Except...

There's only so much room in the sideboard for combo hate, if at all; There's a school of thought that relies entirely around 'dodge combo' as our way to win events. In reality, we DO want Piledriver in our deck versus Combo as a way to race them down before they have a chance to kill us. But, running Piledrivers against Thalias and removal all day doesn't seem very helpful.

WHAT IF

Piledriver IS the sideboard combo hate? You don't maindeck any so that your matchups against 'fair' decks doesn't suffer randomly ('Man, I have to go all in against this Angler and hope he doesn't Decay or I'm dead either way' as opposed to 'I'll just Mogg War Marshal and buy 3 turns' etc etc)

BUT

You get to bring it in against Storm, Sneak n Show, Reanimator(s), Infect, Miracles (to an extent, I suppose), Omnitell, Lands whatever you get the gist
Surely I'll still be running Pithing Needles, Moons and some form of graveyard hate (probably Leyline of the Void, everything else seems too slow really), but that leaves about 5-6 slots and fitting 3 Piledrivers there instead of the maindeck seems like it might be a decent idea.

Feel free to tell me how much of an idiot I am but I would love to see some discussion regarding this idea.

TL;DR: Piledrivers in the sideboard to be fast when we need it, but not lose to creature matchups in Game 1 where we weren't favored to beat combo anyway.

As you might KNOW (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31114-Deck-Vial-Goblins&p=978377&viewfull=1#post978377), I'm also on the "Driver sucks"-train.
I'm curious what your current list looks like (the one that you will likely bring to the event).

@Olaf: same question to you. What list are you planing to bring to the next event?

[Olaf Forkbeard]

As you might KNOW (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31114-Deck-Vial-Goblins&p=978377&viewfull=1#post978377), I'm also on the "Driver sucks"-train.
I'm curious what your current list looks like (the one that you will likely bring to the event).

@Olaf: same question to you. What list are you planing to bring to the next event?

Depending on board space I'm going to end up with a MB like below:

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Mountain
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Skirk Prospector
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg War Marshal
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Stingscourger
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Tarfire

The only thing changing is -1 Gem, -1 Tar, +2 Pyrokinesis if I can't find room in my board for everything I want. My board though, that is something I'm coming up as challenging, and it's mostly because this is a 15 round event. The more general the answers, the better here, as even if it doesn't show up in larger numbers, I still should have a plan for fast spell based combo. I will likely play against it if all goes well. Building decks to top 8, means I need to get there.

Now the sideboard is still work in progress. I'll go ahead and spout my entire thoughts on it.

SB 1 - Jim Davis's - Soft to BR Reanimator and D&T
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben - Reanimator, Storm, S&T
3 Relic of Progenitus - Reanimator, Storm, Goyf
3 Mindbreak Trap - Storm, Omnitell, Elves
3 Pyrokinesis - D&T, Elves, Infect
2 Containment Priest - Reanimator, S&T
1 Tin Street Hooligan - D&T

Jim Davis's board plan actually does everything I want, but in a roundabout way, and quite possibly not fast enough. I'm worried about how slow it's answers to Reanimator actually are, and I'm very worried that it doesn't have enough answers to D&T's newer, more consistent, shell.


SB 2 - My Board currently
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben - Reanimator, Storm, S&T
2 Relic of Progenitus - Reanimator, Storm, Goyf
2 Surgical Extraction - Reanimator
2 Mindbreak Trap - Storm
2 Pithing Needle - D&T, S&T, Lands
1 Tin Street Hooligan - D&T
1 Stingscourger - Reanimator, S&T
1 Pyrokinesis - D&T, Elves, Infect
1 Krenko, Mob Boss - Goyf

This was my latest play testing SB, and it feels well rounded with one worry. I still want another shatter affect for D&T somewhere. This was run with a 4/2 split on Tar/Gem for reference. I'm thinking of swapping the Tin Street out for an Ancient Grudge, and possibly cutting that Krenko from the board for another Relic. Ultimately though my least favorite thing about this board is the lack of Blood Moon.

Here are some other configurations I've been looking into.

SB 3 - My theoretical board
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben - Reanimator, Storm, S&T
3 Surgical Extraction - Reanimator
3 Pyrokinesis - D&T, Elves, Infect
2 Containment Priest - Reanimator, S&T
2 Tin Street Hooligan - D&T
2 Blood Moon - Eldrazi, Shardless, Grixis, Lands

SB 4 - My theoretical board
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben - Reanimator, Storm, S&T
3 Mindbreak Trap - Storm, Elves
2 Surgical Extraction - Reanimator
2 Containment Priest - Reanimator, S&T
2 Tin Street Hooligan - D&T
2 Blood Moon - Eldrazi, Shardless, Grixis, Lands
1 Pyrokinesis - D&T, Elves, Infect

[WingZero29]

Hey guys. So I finally decided to register for the forum after reading through a decent amount of the old and new thread. I've been playing Goblins since GP Denver in 2013, and I will be in Louisville this weekend playing Goblins again. My maindeck is about where I want it to be, but I'm not sure what to do with the sideboard. Any suggestions are appreciated
Maindeck:

4 x Cavern of Souls
4 x Rishadan Port
4 x Wasteland
3 x Mountain
1 x Badlands
1 x Plateau
2 x Bloodstained Mire
1 x Arid Mesa
1 x Scalding Tarn
1 x Wooded Foothills

4 x Goblin Lackey
4 x Goblin Ringleader
4 x Goblin Matron
4 x Goblin Warchief
3 x Goblin Piledriver
2 x Gempalm Incinerator
1 x Skirk Prospector
1 x Stingscourger
1 x Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
1 x Goblin Sharpshooter
1 x Goblin Chieftain
1 x Krenko, Mob Boss
1 x Tuktuk Scrapper
1 x Earwig Squad
1 x Siege-Gang Commander

4 x Aether Vial
3 x Tarfire
1 x Pyrokinesis

Sideboard:

3 x Ethersworn Canonist
2 x Pyrokinesis
3 x Chalice of the Void
2 x Wear//Tear
2 x Blood Moon
2 x Surgical Extraction
1 x Faerie Macabre

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Hey guys. So I finally decided to register for the forum after reading through a decent amount of the old and new thread. I've been playing Goblins since GP Denver in 2013, and I will be in Louisville this weekend playing Goblins again. My maindeck is about where I want it to be, but I'm not sure what to do with the sideboard. Any suggestions are appreciated
Maindeck:

4 x Cavern of Souls
4 x Rishadan Port
4 x Wasteland
3 x Mountain
1 x Badlands
1 x Plateau
2 x Bloodstained Mire
1 x Arid Mesa
1 x Scalding Tarn
1 x Wooded Foothills

4 x Goblin Lackey
4 x Goblin Ringleader
4 x Goblin Matron
4 x Goblin Warchief
3 x Goblin Piledriver
2 x Gempalm Incinerator
1 x Skirk Prospector
1 x Stingscourger
1 x Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
1 x Goblin Sharpshooter
1 x Goblin Chieftain
1 x Krenko, Mob Boss
1 x Tuktuk Scrapper
1 x Earwig Squad
1 x Siege-Gang Commander

4 x Aether Vial
3 x Tarfire
1 x Pyrokinesis

Sideboard:

3 x Ethersworn Canonist
2 x Pyrokinesis
3 x Chalice of the Void
2 x Wear//Tear
2 x Blood Moon
2 x Surgical Extraction
1 x Faerie Macabre

I mean, your board seems fine. I think a 1 of Pithing Needle will probably help you more than the second Wear // Tear. It has more uses in more matches. Why Ethersworn over Thalia? Thalia generally does more against storm and has very similar text in other combo match's? Is that a hedge towards elves?

I'm not a huge fan of 22 land builds unless they are heavy on basics personally, but other than that, you've got answers to most things. I'd run the third Gempalm over the third Tarfire in the main, due to the fact that you already have Pyrokinesis as a singleton in the main. Gempalm is very good right now. Lot's of grind.

[WingZero29]

I mean, your board seems fine. I think a 1 of Pithing Needle will probably help you more than the second Wear // Tear. It has more uses in more matches. Why Ethersworn over Thalia? Thalia generally does more against storm and has very similar text in other combo match's? Is that a hedge towards elves?

I'm not a huge fan of 22 land builds unless they are heavy on basics personally, but other than that, you've got answers to most things. I'd run the third Gempalm over the third Tarfire in the main, due to the fact that you already have Pyrokinesis as a singleton in the main. Gempalm is very good right now. Lot's of grind.

I'm trying Ethersworn over Thalia right now because of Aluren starting to pick up in popularity and it still impacts the other combo decks in similar ways. Some of the combo decks it just outright shuts down as well since the are stuck at only playing a single spell per turn in most cases. It's something that I've been testing along with another local guy that is playing Nic Fit.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

I'm trying Ethersworn over Thalia right now because of Aluren starting to pick up in popularity and it still impacts the other combo decks in similar ways. Some of the combo decks it just outright shuts down as well since the are stuck at only playing a single spell per turn in most cases. It's something that I've been testing along with another local guy that is playing Nic Fit.

That's fair. I've always just relied on Pyrokinesis in that match-up. That and I've conveniently been running lists with Wear // Tear in board at those times.

[Dan Pyre]

As you might KNOW (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31114-Deck-Vial-Goblins&p=978377&viewfull=1#post978377), I'm also on the "Driver sucks"-train.
I'm curious what your current list looks like (the one that you will likely bring to the event).

@Olaf: same question to you. What list are you planing to bring to the next event?
Hi,

I think I will be using this list for Louisville.

Lands (23)
11 Mountain
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

Artifacts (4)
4 Aether Vial

Instant (2)
2 Pyrokinesis

Creatures (31)
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Piledriver (other slot? I can't decide on this one)

Sideboard (15)
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Blood Moon
3 Pithing Needle
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Stingscourger

Some notes:
I've decided against the sideboard Piledriver plan - Chalice really does what we want versus a huge swath of decks - especially Burn, which I always forget will be a thing at Legacy events and we do have a difficult time fighting. Of course this card is also great versus most combo and 1CMC decks so I think that it's really hard to go without.

The one Piledriver main seems like it will do more versus the field than the Skirk Prospector, which really is just there to try to stall versus equipments. I can't say I'm a fan. The Piledriver main also gives me a quicker potential clock in combo matchups than the 3rd Krenko would (as various arguments here and on the Facebook page have pointed out).

I've always liked the extra Stingscourger in the board to bring in for various Reanimator and Sneak n Show matches. I've never been sad to see both.

Blood Moons will be great against Eldrazi, Lands, and various 3 color decks.

Pithing Needle is a great catch-all.

Leyline is a nod to the B/R Reanimator deck that is making waves.

I really like the no-fetch mono-red mana base as I can dodge being blown out by opposing Wastelands easily (no color screw and we're trying to play lots of 3 and 4 mana spells).

[kombatkiwi]

If you really want to spend 1 slot on a card that is supposed to be a huge damage boost vs no blockers then why not play Goblin Pyromancer?

It's 18 damage with a haste lord and any 2 other goblins, you can argue that at 4 mana it's too slow but to Matron for a hasted Piledriver on turn 3 you have to have Lackeyed in a Warchief turn 2 and have a MWM (and is still not the full 20)

Other hands that don't have lackey also become okay like
Turn 1 Vial
Turn 2 Vial on 1, cast MWM
Turn 3 Vial on 2, cast Matron for Pyromancer, attack for 1
Turn 4 Vial on 3, cast Pyromancer

If your vial on 2 put another MWM into play this is 1 + 16 damage turn 4, or if your vial on 3 can play a haste lord then this is 1 + 22 damage turn 4

In terms of being a dud in the non-combo creature matchups I think I'd rather have overrun than squire.
If you think this suggestion sounds silly then that's obviously reasonable but in that case it seems difficult to also recommend the 1-off Piledriver.

[Dan Pyre]

If you really want to spend 1 slot on a card that is supposed to be a huge damage boost vs no blockers then why not play Goblin Pyromancer?

It's 18 damage with a haste lord and any 2 other goblins, you can argue that at 4 mana it's too slow but to Matron for a hasted Piledriver on turn 3 you have to have Lackeyed in a Warchief turn 2 and have a MWM (and is still not the full 20)

Other hands that don't have lackey also become okay like
Turn 1 Vial
Turn 2 Vial on 1, cast MWM
Turn 3 Vial on 2, cast Matron for Pyromancer, attack for 1
Turn 4 Vial on 3, cast Pyromancer

If your vial on 2 put another MWM into play this is 1 + 16 damage turn 4, or if your vial on 3 can play a haste lord then this is 1 + 22 damage turn 4

In terms of being a dud in the non-combo creature matchups I think I'd rather have overrun than squire.
If you think this suggestion sounds silly then that's obviously reasonable but in that case it seems difficult to also recommend the 1-off Piledriver.
I'd say the downside is the 'destroy all Goblins at end of turn' rider ;) You're only killing your opponent with Piledriver if they didn't have an instant speed removal anyway (the protection is mostly irrelevant), if they do with Pyromancer on board (hit one of your Warchief precombat, for example), they drop fairly low and then get to one-sided Damnation your board. Not so with Piledriver, at least.

[ScatmanX]

I was running the instigator list... but it always brick when get wasted and double red mana is an permanent issue. So i start read some articles and watch videos on youtube from Jim Javis (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYbnisCh7pI) and i think the classic build is better than any other, as Max Tieze and Jim Davis always play with that build.

So whats the main trouble that classic build cant deal that force us to play with a different build or an hibrid one like yours?
I also think that the classic build is better than Gator one right now. It is always a meta call and the main difference is speed. I first created an Instigator decklist to fight in the Mental Misstep era. Since then it was also awesome when the meta was mostly Stoneforge decks and Maverick. Right now though, I'm in the classic train, but I like dusting off Instigators every now and then to see what they can do in the meta.
Oh, and if you try Instigator, play lots of R sources. 17-19 is what I'd recommend.


However, the emergence of Eldrazi in particular has made Tarfire a far less appealing choice for me:

-Chalice on 1
-Doesn't replace itself
-Doesn't scale
-Awkward interaction when trying to double up on Reality Smasher
-Can't kill Thought-Knot or a big enough Endless One

Another minor point is that it is not counterable by conventional countermagic (against Delver and Infect decks, for example) so it is easier to pull kills off with Gempalm than Tarfire.

Tarfire is not great against Elfrazi, indeed. Even though some take out CotV after SB. removal is not how we win. Board presence and mana denial is.
And I don't agree that Gempalm is better against Delver and Infect. I mean, it is awesome, but so is Tarfire. Post sb we bring in counterable cards. If we don't draw Caverns, our Goblins are counterable. If they Daze your MWM T2, you're gonna have a hard time Gempalming Delver before stabilizing. And regarding Infect, which is a combo deck, paying 1 mana for your removal instead of 2 is HUGE.
All that said, my Classic build now will either play 4 Gempalm/ 1 Tarfire, or a 3/2 split, because the card draw from Gempalm is essential in many other MU's (oh, and 2 Kinesis MD as well because fuck your creatures)


Do you think playing Metallic Mimic with a Murderous Redcap could be an alternate win-con?
Sounds horrible. Please try it =D
As Olaf said, brainstorming is even more important than the results

@ Olaf:
If you take a look at our DtB, BRx Reanimator is starting to grow in numbers pretty quickly and is a very tough deck. I'm just commenting because some of your SB run both Mindbreak Trap and Thalia, which I think should be wrong nowadays. Thalias + more grave hate can be very good against both Reanimator and Past in Flames deck, and against SnT you have the Thalia + Sting + Needles (Sneak Attack), which I think is both broader and more effective answers.

@ Goblin Pyromancer:
No, just no. It has been tested.

[Dan Pyre]

And regarding Infect, which is a combo deck, paying 1 mana for your removal instead of 2 is HUGE.
All that said, my Classic build now will either play 4 Gempalm/ 1 Tarfire, or a 3/2 split, because the card draw from Gempalm is essential in many other MU's (oh, and 2 Kinesis MD as well because fuck your creatures)

This is a great point! However, I normally bring in Chalice on 1 versus Infect (cantrips, Berserk, Glistener Elf and Noble Hierarch) and I can't cast my own Tarfire into that :(

That said, I would be willing to play some Tarfires again if I could find foil copies of it ANYWHERE! :(

[Olaf Forkbeard]

I also think that the classic build is better than Gator one right now. It is always a meta call and the main difference is speed. I first created an Instigator decklist to fight in the Mental Misstep era. Since then it was also awesome when the meta was mostly Stoneforge decks and Maverick. Right now though, I'm in the classic train, but I like dusting off Instigators every now and then to see what they can do in the meta.
Oh, and if you try Instigator, play lots of R sources. 17-19 is what I'd recommend.


Tarfire is not great against Elfrazi, indeed. Even though some take out CotV after SB. removal is not how we win. Board presence and mana denial is.
And I don't agree that Gempalm is better against Delver and Infect. I mean, it is awesome, but so is Tarfire. Post sb we bring in counterable cards. If we don't draw Caverns, our Goblins are counterable. If they Daze your MWM T2, you're gonna have a hard time Gempalming Delver before stabilizing. And regarding Infect, which is a combo deck, paying 1 mana for your removal instead of 2 is HUGE.
All that said, my Classic build now will either play 4 Gempalm/ 1 Tarfire, or a 3/2 split, because the card draw from Gempalm is essential in many other MU's (oh, and 2 Kinesis MD as well because fuck your creatures)


Sounds horrible. Please try it =D
As Olaf said, brainstorming is even more important than the results

@ Olaf:
If you take a look at our DtB, BRx Reanimator is starting to grow in numbers pretty quickly and is a very tough deck. I'm just commenting because some of your SB run both Mindbreak Trap and Thalia, which I think should be wrong nowadays. Thalias + more grave hate can be very good against both Reanimator and Past in Flames deck, and against SnT you have the Thalia + Sting + Needles (Sneak Attack), which I think is both broader and more effective answers.

@ Goblin Pyromancer:
No, just no. It has been tested.

Actually someone already brought this to my attention and reminded me that Grafdigger's Cage was a card. I agree that Storm is far less likely to show, but I am planning on doing my best, and that means getting through 15-18 rounds of Legacy. Anything can happen in Legacy. I think a wider board is better for a wider field, even if a percentage or two is lost elsewhere.

Edit:
I had been considering something more like below, but as everyone knows, these are subject to change up until I've registered.

3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben - All spell based combo, Non-wasteland spell heavy decks (UR Delver, U based Stoneblade, Miracles)
2 Containment Priest - S&T, Reanimator, Elves
2 Surgical Extraction - Reanimator, Lands
2 Relic of Progenitus - Shardless, Aggro Loam,
2 Pithing Needle - D&T, Miracles, Lands
1 Tin Street Hooligan - D&T, Shardless
1 Wear // Tear - D&T, Miracles
1 Pryokinesis - Eldrazi, D&T, Grixis, Elves
1 Krenko, Mob Boss - Eldrazi, Shardless

My issues with this board are simply put, I feel actual dead against Storm, and Omnitell. And there just isn't room for Blood Moon. I'm only actually want Moon for Shardless and Grixis, despite it's text in some other matches. I don't expect Grixis is going to make huge waves. And Krenko, according to my testing, has had more text than just Blood Moon or just Krenko from board against Shardless. All that said, I still don't have Grafdigger's in here. I'm going to get some last minute testing tonight to figure out how to jam 1-2 Grafdigger's without losing much to S&T.

[ScatmanX]

@Dan: alright, that's reasonable then. Still, I'd play both tarfires and CotV, reason being, if I have CotV online I'm quite likely to win anyway, and if not, tarfires are quite good. Also, they run Zenith with Veridian Corrupter to break CotV.

@Olaf: I'm not saying to don't run combo hate if you want to, but imo Mindbreak Trap is just too narrow nowadays, and most storm decks are relying a lot in Past in Flames, making grave hate not only broader, but as effective. Either way, depends on how you want to prepare yourself for the matchups.

Sent from my SM-J500M using Tapatalk

[Sockosensei]

@Olaf:
I've been running build #23/30 from your signature for a few weeks and have liked it a lot. The 2/2/2 maindeck removal suite of Tarfire/Gempalm/Pyrokinesis has been excellent for me. I'm curious why you've moved away from Pyrokinesis in the main. Being able to go up to a third copy post-board was great in the creature matchups.

I played Pyroblast over Mindbreak Trap in that board because it's a broader effect, giving another weapon vs Show and Tell. Mindbreak alone won't flip the storm matchup and Pyroblast is effective against many of their hands anyway: many times they'll keep a hand based on cantrips to dig into a tutor and Pyroblast will buy you time.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

@Olaf:
I've been running build #23/30 from your signature for a few weeks and have liked it a lot. The 2/2/2 maindeck removal suite of Tarfire/Gempalm/Pyrokinesis has been excellent for me. I'm curious why you've moved away from Pyrokinesis in the main. Being able to go up to a third copy post-board was great in the creature matchups.

I played Pyroblast over Mindbreak Trap in that board because it's a broader effect, giving another weapon vs Show and Tell. Mindbreak alone won't flip the storm matchup and Pyroblast is effective against many of their hands anyway: many times they'll keep a hand based on cantrips to dig into a tutor and Pyroblast will buy you time.

If you take a closer look at that post, I kind of didn't. If I can't fit them in my board they fit in my main. I'm on the 2/2/2 split as of this moment.

The actual, factual, non-fallacious, reason I like to run Mindbreak trap is Belcher. I always fear I will run into it. I never have buys, because I don't attend enough events, and still have to make the first few rounds alive.

[Sockosensei]

Ha!
I can't speak to Belcher's % of the field, but I think we just have to dodge it. If early round jank decks is the fear, Pyroblast will probably be useful against more decks than Mindbreak Trap will.

I understand now what you were saying about the removal. I'm a big fan of the 2 Pyrokinesis main, with the third in the board. I'd like to have a 3rd Gempalm, but with only 2 MWM, not confident it'd be consistent.

[Dan Pyre]

Good luck today everyone!

[Fourbirr]

Dear fellow goblins,

The MTG pro player Paul Cheon is maybe playing Goblins soon. Please, help him decide by filling his poll:
http://www.strawpoll.me/12046545/r

:wink:

[Sagratho]

Hello Warchiefs,

I was watching Paul Cheon Stream and then a wild Jim Davis apears to help Paul on the tournament. This was his last updated decklist:

Core
4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Ringleader
4 Matron

Others
4 Warchief
3 Gempalm
3 Piledriver
3 War Marshal
3 Tarfire
1 SGC
1 TSH
1 Stingscourget
1 Prospector
1 Sharpshooter

Lands
4 Port
4 Waste
4 Cavern
6 red fetch
1 Plateau
1 Taiga
3 Mounain

I have some questions abouth the list. Jim Davis said thats Lackey is abouth 9th best card on deck, and first one is Ringleader... Our main strategy is drop land and believe on Ringleader. So If we have a deck that likes to extend the game, why run less fetchable lands than fetch lands?? Its 5 lands for 6 fetch lands, if we hav a mountain/taiga/plateau on ur hand, on lategame we will fetch nothing.

My second question is abouth Skirk/Sharpshooter vs Krenko/Chieftain. I think to run sharpshooter, I must run prospector and to run Krenko, its necessary run Chieftain. But I like too much Krenko as win con... i like too much the plays that prospector enables. I dont like sharpshooter, i think it is very slow without an haste lord, i run 1 Pyrokinesis and 2 Tarfire as an attempt to no need sharpshooter in my deck.

So why a lot of sharpshooter and no krenkos??

[Sandro95]

Lands
4 Port
4 Waste
4 Cavern
6 red fetch
1 Plateau
1 Taiga
3 Mounain

I have some questions abouth the list. Jim Davis said thats Lackey is abouth 9th best card on deck, and first one is Ringleader... Our main strategy is drop land and believe on Ringleader. So If we have a deck that likes to extend the game, why run less fetchable lands than fetch lands?? Its 5 lands for 6 fetch lands, if we hav a mountain/taiga/plateau on ur hand, on lategame we will fetch nothing.

My second question is abouth Skirk/Sharpshooter vs Krenko/Chieftain. I think to run sharpshooter, I must run prospector and to run Krenko, its necessary run Chieftain. But I like too much Krenko as win con... i like too much the plays that prospector enables. I dont like sharpshooter, i think it is very slow without an haste lord, i run 1 Pyrokinesis and 2 Tarfire as an attempt to no need sharpshooter in my deck.

So why a lot of sharpshooter and no krenkos??

With two splashes the flexibility of the fetchlands can outweigh the late game value that comes from having more fetchable lands.

I agree that Sharpshooter is MUCH better in a list with Prospector. I do however strongly disagree that one would need Chieftain in a list with Krenko.
While Krenko is very good with Chieftain, Krenko is also just really good with about anything. The trick is not to make your Krenko late game more powerful, but to make it easier to reach, and more resilient.
Haste is good for this reason, and while +1/+1 is obviously great with many small creatures, it is mostly not necessary when you can produce as many tokens as Krenko can. Chieftain is great for other reasons, and more hastelords can be great in a Krenko centric list, but unless your facing E-Plague effects I'd rather have Warchief to help me cast Krenko.

[1GoblinLackey]

I also find the list Davis gave to Cheon to be a little odd, if for nothing else the lack of Krenko or Siege-Gang. The 3 MWMs indicate that it's not an incredibly aggressive version of the deck, but it seems to lack lategame punch. That being said, I do think Piledriver is better exactly right now more so than normal because of the popularity of the Leovold decks after Reid Duke's victory. PD having pro blue seems like it might finally be relevant, especially with so many people playing slightly durdly blue 3 drops and Baleful Strix. So perhaps Jim is thinking of PD as the finisher over krenko in this case.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

I also find the list Davis gave to Cheon to be a little odd, if for nothing else the lack of Krenko or Siege-Gang. The 3 MWMs indicate that it's not an incredibly aggressive version of the deck, but it seems to lack lategame punch. That being said, I do think Piledriver is better exactly right now more so than normal because of the popularity of the Leovold decks after Reid Duke's victory. PD having pro blue seems like it might finally be relevant, especially with so many people playing slightly durdly blue 3 drops and Baleful Strix. So perhaps Jim is thinking of PD as the finisher over krenko in this case.

I mean, it's also his play-style, looking at other formats. He likes to play U/W control with as little finisher's as possible. Play Wait and Bait, and then clamp down on the victory. The more finisher's you are running though, the more Get Out of Jail Free cards you have when things go awry. Putting it bluntly, the more finisher's you run the less skill the deck takes to pilot to a victory, but it comes at the downside of punishing you harshly when you draw them at in-opportune times. A while back Gobolord was running a finisher-less build that he was doing just fine with. Ringleader is the true win-con of the deck more often than not.

There are exceptions. Krenko is just really, really good against Shardless, where our maindeck is slightly lacking.


I also like Piledriver as an out to Leovold. That card sure is a 3/3.

---

I'll be writing my report for the GP over this week. I did terribly for anyone curious, with a miserable 4/5 record. In my defense I was battling a cold all weekend and actually had a headache the entire main event. It felt like I was playing at my skill level from 3 years ago. Lot's of little errors that matter, because Legacy, and my fair share of bad beats (I LOST A MATCH TO MIRACLES, THE SHAME!!). Anyway, I'll be writing it up and explaining what I think I did wrong and where I could have done better. Be on a look out for that.

[GoboLord]

A while back Gobolord was running a finisher-less build that he was doing just fine with. Ringleader is the true win-con of the deck more often than not.

To be fair, this list had 4 Chieftain, 4 Piledriver and 4 Warren instigator. While none of them is a real wincondition on its own, having multiple copies of any is very close to being one. I definitely wouldnt run a list without Krenko, SGC (or Kiki-Jiki to some extent), if it doesn't have 4 copies of Goblin Chieftain.




I'll be writing my report for the GP over this week. I did terribly for anyone curious, with a miserable 4/5 record. In my defense I was battling a cold all weekend and actually had a headache the entire main event. It felt like I was playing at my skill level from 3 years ago. Lot's of little errors that matter, because Legacy, and my fair share of bad beats (I LOST A MATCH TO MIRACLES, THE SHAME!!). Anyway, I'll be writing it up and explaining what I think I did wrong and where I could have done better. Be on a look out for that.

Sorry to hear that, but to be perfectly honest, I tend to learn more from negative performances than from good ones (in fact sometimes, I just skip the reports of the matches that were won, when reading a tournament report). As such, I'm looking forward to reading your report (as always).

[Dan Pyre]

Hi Ringleaders, here’s the list I piloted for GP Louisville:

Lands (23)
11 Mountain
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

Artifacts (4)
4 Aether Vial

Instants (2)
2 Pyrokinesis

Creatures (31)
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Goblin Piledriver
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Siege-Gang Commander

Sideboard (15)
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Blood Moon
3 Pithing Needle
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

Some notes before the games: I made the last minute snap decision to cut a Krenko and my singleton Goblin Chieftain to fit in Skirk Prospector and Goblin Sharpshooter. While I never had a tournament game where I managed to land both, having that interaction available to me made several matchups more favorable (including Elves which I played against and lost with Sharpshooter in hand… better never than not having it in the deck, I suppose :( )

I didn’t take super specific notes on any game but if anything specific happened I’ll try my best to explain what happened though the exact board state at times might not be clear.

On to the games:

Round 1: Clark on BUG Delver

I played against a lot of BUG Delver over the weekend. It feels like a decent matchup. Their Dazes can snag your Aether Vials on turn 1 but otherwise it feels like we outgrind them. Especially considering I won this match 2-0 after getting double Hymn to Tourach’d both games. Ringleader is pure gas!

My life pad never drops me below 18 life in either game but I remember blocking Tarmogoyf - the multiples of Mogg War Marshal paid off here. Additionally, Krenko made an appearance late in each game to seal the deal.

SB: 3 Blood Moon on the play and draw, removed Lackeys on the draw and put in Needles and another Stingscourger I believe.

1-0 (2-0)

Round 2: Benjamin on Elves
In game 1 Benjamin has the nuts Elves draw complete with an eventual 3x Nettle Sentinel and Hertiage Druid chaining off with Glimpse of Nature. Not much I could have done there.

In game 2, I think I cycled 3 Gempalms and ports kept him off mana while Lackey and Mogg War Marshal tokens bashed in for the grindy win.

In game 3, I have to mull to 5 - 3 lands, a Mogg and a Gempalm. It’s as good as it gets on a mull versus Elves. I happen to draw Sharpshooter but am a turn too late to deploy it before I get Nettle/Heritage’d again for the loss.

SB: 3 Chalice of the Void, 2/3 Pithing Needle. 3 Ringleaders, Stingscourger and Tuktuk out.

1-1 (3-2)

Round 3: Chris on Eldrazi

In game 1 Gempalm killing Reality Smasher and other Eldrazi for net value and Krenko manage to seal the deal before I drop below 13 life.

In game 2 Chris is unfortunately mana screwed after I Wasteland him twice and Vial in a Warchief. Krenko and friends drop in shortly after that. I think I managed to even play the Blood Moon to prompt Chris to scoop before the lethal attack.

I feel like this matchup is favorable so long as we’re able to keep up on board in the early game and then land a Krenko to pump out enough creatures to chump if we’re in a very bad position. It’s hard to justify Wastelanding in the early game especially if they have a Mimic and a Sol land - if they land a Thought-Knot and take your best card and you don’t have any mana to spare, we won’t be able to recover in time to stabilize. Save your Wastelands unless they actively miss a land drop or you have Vials!

SB: 3 Blood Moon, 1 Tuktuk. I think I took out Piledriver, Stingscourger, and Skirk + Sharpshooter. Not sure if that’s entirely correct but I think Ringleader is important to make sure that we keep up with the creature battle.

2-1 (5-2)

Round 4: Alix on Enchantress

Seriously? What are the odds! Alix is a really cool dude and even has a ‘The Source’ playmat so I imagine he’s very good. Unfortunately for me, there’s not much I can do in the matchup other than pray.

I did manage a really cool line in Game 1. Alix landed a Solitary Confinement but I didn’t scoop since on the off chance he couldn’t fuel it (2 Enchantress effects, but only 1 land as I wasted his Serra’s) I might be able to get through. At this point I’ve Matron’d up Krenko and have activated him once for around 12 Goblins or so. Then on his next turn… he has to let the Confinement blow up! His card for turn was an Elephant Grass sadly but at least I’m able to attack now.

When the unthinkable happens… I draw another Matron and Vial it into play and I realize that I can go for a 2-turn win (hopefully) - I find Skirk Prospector.

Play Prospector, play out my hand, activate Krenko and attack him from 18 to 8 in one swing - while paying 2 for every attacker by sacrificing many Goblin tokens. I left back about 15~ tokens to make sure I had enough fuel on the next attack through chump blockers.

On his turn, he manages to land 2 more (!!) Elephant grass. Unfortunately, I’m not able to attack through 6 mana per attack (and some Argothian chumps) and only get him to 4 life before I get Doomwake Giant’d the next turn. Bummer!

In game 2, there’s actually a hilarious moment where Alix plays Mirri’s Guile on the first turn. I’ve played Guile in other formats before so for WHATEVER REASON on my upkeep I look at the top three cards of my deck like I’m using the trigger. I catch myself immediately and throw the cards back on top of my deck. Alix and I agree to call a judge and I can’t stop giggling at how much of a doofus I was. Since I didn’t put any cards into my hand, I only get a warning so play continues but man I felt like such an idiot.
Unfortunately, Alix is able to fuel his Confinement this time and I get Doomwake’d in short order. Not much we can do here other than dodge this extremely rare matchup (or play Wear//Tear in the board?). Thanks for the funny match, Alix!

2-2 (5-4)

SB: 3 Blood Moon (which I found was wrong, they play many basics and it’s better for us to Port than shut off Serra’s), 3 Chalice of the Void, 2 Pithing Needle (name Sterling Grove?). Took out some Gempalms, Stingscourger, Tuktuk, some Ringleaders and Moggs. Left in a few copies of each but there wasn’t really much to do here.

Round 5: Brian on Miracles

I lead with Cavern on Goblin into Lackey (I think) and Brian exclaims ‘Not this again!’ I laugh and ask if he managed to play one of the four or five Goblins players in the room. He said he got ranched by it in the first round. Brian’s able to actually get me hellbent but we’re both pretty flooded and he’s on two life. His Jace fateseal puts a Ringleader on bottom but I draw Warchief and bash in for the kill.

In game 2 we grind back and forth and Brian lands Humility but I just bash in with 1/1’s and he fails to find a Terminus.

SB: 3 Pithing Needle, I took out Stingscourger, Tuktuk and a Pyrokinesis.

3-2 (7-4)

Round 6: Kevin on Bant splash Black Deathblade.

I don’t quite remember much of this round other than being frustrated with my mana situation. My life total on the pad goes down and then up by 1 so I imagine a Lackey that would have got me there got Plow’d at some point as his life total never changed.

Game 2 I try to hold on versus Batterskull but the double Stoneforge is too much value with Jitte.

This game is why I’m going to be trying Tin-Street Hooligan over Tuktuk going forward. I don’t really like exposing my manabase but I could have shattered the Batterskull earlier and perhaps the game would have turned out differently. Oh well!

SB: 3 Blood Moon, 3 Pithing Needle

3-3 (7-6)

Round 7: John on Miracles
John is not as familiar with the Goblins matchup as Brian was. I don’t remember specific details of this particular match - but considering the life pad goes to 15 for Brian and then goes right over to the next match, I imagine the first game was very quick. He gets to 11 on the second match before I stop taking notes. Piledriver, perhaps? The world may never know!

SB: 3 Pithing Needle

4-3 (9-6)

Round 8: Shawn on Miracles

Shawn DOES know the Goblins matchup as he manages to stall very long in Game 1 losing only chunks of 1 or 2 life at a time. My Ringleaders were on fire this game, however.

In the 2nd game I do make a mistake: I matron for Gempalm to clear the Snapcaster out of the way of my Lackey - however I have no real action in my hand to refill but assume I’ll hit another gas or threat with the extra draw from cycling. I actually don’t and eventually die to an Entreat.

Note that I never saw a Cavern (even in game 3) this entire match so that may have influenced my decision not to get a Ringleader, but I still don’t think that’s correct.

In game 3 I manage to connect with a Lackey and grind the game from there. I ask him after the match if he plays Mentor and he said that the did not. I think that the matchup is much more dangerous for us when they can pressure the board with Mentor. I never played against it all day so I couldn’t comment, but I think Gempalm is the best card against it. They likely leave up countermagic to protect it (and the Prowess trigger gets them value) but the cycling ability will prevent most interaction.

SB: 3 Pithing Needle

5-3 (11-7)

Round 9: Josh on Death and Taxes

This is the matchup that made me last minute switch to Skirk/Sharpshooter. I figured I would have played against it more during the event but I ended up only playing it during arguably the most important match. You only get Day 2 at X-3 so I had to win if I wanted to keep playing.

In game 1 we grind back and forth a bit but he manages to get 2 Flickerwisps on board while I’m at 6 life and die with him at 8 life.
In game 2 I don’t drop a single point of life according to my pad and crush him from 13 to 7 to dead in the matter of 3 turns. Warchief + Krenko must have made an appearance.

Game 3 stands out quite a bit for me: I Needle his on the play Aether Vial (I didn’t have one in hand). He Stoneforges for Jitte and I immediately draw another Needle and name that. After that, he’s stuck on two lands and at the mercy of the swarm. We make it to day 2!

SB: 3 Pithing Needle, 1 Tuktuk Scrapper

6-3 (13-8)

Day 2 - Round 10: Matt on Shardless BUG

Matt destroys me pretty handily in the first game - I don’t even manage to attack him before I go down to Deathrite + Goyf beats and Decays on valuable Goblins.

In the 2nd game, I’m on the offensive and manage to never lose a single life. At 5 life, he wipes all but two of my Ringleaders with a very well drawn Night of Soul’s Betrayal. I draw another Ringleader and attack for 3 twice to win the game.

In the 3rd game, I stabilize with Krenko at 10 life and begin massing Goblins. I hadn’t seen a Jitte at this point but I boarded in my 2nd Tuktuk as insurance and a way to clear Strixes or Agents if they got in the way. With 5 lands, Krenko on board and my opponent on a potential 5 mana, I opt to Double Wasteland to keep him off of Night of Soul’s Betrayal so I don’t have to rely on Krenko beats to win. Unfortunately, he draws Jitte and I’m stuck on 3 mana and can’t cast it. Another recommendation for Tin-Street Hooligan. He manages to kill Krenko with Jitte counters but I’ve made too many Goblins to matter and manage to attack him for exactly lethal before he can draw his outs (Golgari Charm, Toxic Deluge x2, Night of Soul’s Betrayal). Close one!

SB: 3 Blood Moon, 1 Tuktuk Scrapper

7-3 (15-9)

Round 11: Matt on BUG Delver

In game 1, I get beat down by Tarmogoyf before stabilizing with some Mogg tokens. At some point, he edicts a Liliana and pluses it to 2 loyalty with an fresh Delver of Secrets and Goyf on the battlefield. Goyf is a 5/6 and I’m at 8 life - I have two Mogg tokens and a summoning sick Krenko, but I can’t afford to get double Decay’ed into Lili edict on my Krenko. Admittedly, I only lose in the scenario that that happens and Delver flips but I decide to attack Lili with a Mogg token and he trades with Delver. He does have the Decay for a token and edicts away Krenko and Goyf takes the game.

Realistically I should have waited since Krenko would cover the Krenko against Goyf but had the Delver flipped I only would have had two turns to survive.

In game 2, I resolve Blood Moon on turn 3.

In game 3, I resolve Blood Moon after some grinding on turn 4 or 5.

Blood Moon is not a fair Magic card ;)

SB: 3 Blood Moon, ???

8-3 (17-10)

Round 12: William on BUG Delver

I lose game 1 to a triple (!!!) Hymn to Tourach.

In game 2 I manage to draw all three Blood Moons: one gets Thoughtseized and he sees two in my hand. I draw the 3rd the turn after and force them through.

In game 3 I have to mulligan to 4 cards, seeing 3 lands TOTAL in all mulligans. I get the crap beat out of me by a Tombstalker after I finally draw a red source.

SB: 3 Blood Moon

8-4 (18-12)

Round 13: Ben on Manaless Dredge

Just prior to this round, I was talking with Olaf Forkbeard at the event about how Relic is probably still a better choice than Leyline of the Void considering it’s better in Goyf and other matchups, even if it’s one turn slower for the already unfavorable Reanimator and Storm matchups. I agree and will probably replace the Leylines with Relics - however it was so sweet to IMMEDIATELY play against Manaless Dredge following this discussion. I only have to mulligan once in the 2nd and 3rd games to find a Leyline and manage to take it. Skill Magic at its finest!

SB: 4 Leyline of the Void, 3 Pithing Needle (name Phantasmagorian), 3 Chalice of the Void (on 1 for Therapy, Probe?)

9-4 (20-13)

Round 14: Mike on Sneak and Show

I lead the game on Cavern - Lackey and he starts with fetch into cantrip. I attack and drop in a Warchief and cast something else. On his turn, he plays Ancient Tomb and casts Show and Tell - unless it’s Sneak Attack, I should be fine. He drops in Emrakul and I lay a Goblin Matron. I tutor up Stingscourger and he reads it, as is tradition. I bounce the Emrakul and lay down beats before he’s able to set up a Sneak Attack kill.

In the 2nd game, I manage to get him to 8 before I get Kozilek’s returned (on my EoT Piledriver, shit!) and he Sneaks in both to kill me.

In the 3rd game, I keep a hand with Mountain, Vial, Vial, Needle, Lackey, Lackey Matron. I’m totally boned if he Forces the Needle since he’s wise to the Stingscourger shenanigans by now as my hand isn’t NECESSARILY aggressive enough to win. I can’t waste the Matron not finding Stingscourger in case he goes for Show and Tell anyway.

I play a Vial on the first turn so that I can actually play Goblins and use my mana for the Needle and other Vial later. Luckily on the 2nd turn, my Needle resolves and I name Sneak Attack. Now, I just need to end the game on 1 mana and two Vials. I actually forget to play the other Vial on the 3rd turn (don’t rush yourself kids) but it doesn’t matter. I attack for as little damage as possible with 2 Lackeys a turn and leave the Vials on 3 and 2 (3 for Matron, 2 for Stingscourger) and eventually get there.

SB: 3 Chalice of the Void, 3 Pithing Needle, 1 Stingscourger

10-4 (22-14)

Round 15: Alan on Infect

This is actually the game I want to discuss the most as, while any additional loss would have prevented me being the the Top 100, it feels like this one I’m actually responsible for as opposed to bad draws. So spoiler alert, I lose, but I really feel like I could have won had I played correctly.

In game 1, I keep a Mountain, Port, Lackey, Mogg, 2x Gempalm 2x Matron hand. My Lackey gets Force’d, the Mogg Daze’d - I start drawing non-land, non-Vials but he puts an Inkmoth into play but no other Infector. I’m certain he has Invigorate + Berserk because of this fact AND the fact that he has the opposite problem that I do - he can’t stop drawing lands! We go about 6 turns in this fashion before I draw another land for play a Vial (gets Forced). A critical turn comes where I’m finally able to deploy Mogg War Marshal and leave up Port - but he had played Glistener Elf the turn before. So long as he doesn’t have double protections for the Inkmoth, I can chump the Elf and Gempalm the Inkmoth - unfortunately, he does and I die to Berserk.

While there’s really nothing I could have done there (he confirms he had Invig/Berserk the whole time) my incessant Porting instilled a fear (?) into him that will come back to haunt me…

In game 2, I nut out and bash him to dead in just 5 turns with the help of Piledriver. I’m glad I audibled back to the one, having a reasonably cheap clock is great in games like this.

So, game 3 is the game I want to most discuss about the whole event. A better player than I would have been able to discern the correct line and I feel bad because it was right in front of me but I didn’t take it.

Alan has to mulligan to 6. Here is my keep:

Mountain, Cavern, Port, Skirk Prospector, Goblin Warchief, Krenko, Pyrokinesis. Everything needed to win the matchup, right?

On Alan’s first turn, he plays INKMOTH NEXUS and Needles RISHADAN PORT. This is significant for a few reasons that I didn’t consider at the moment. Leading with Nexus instead of a colored land indicates that it is his only infector in hand and he intends to use it the next turn.

Additionally, I’m somewhat tilted that he named Port instead of Wasteland. Yes, Port is good against Nexus but we play the same number of Wastelands and that’s a permanent solution to Nexus while Port is not. I can only imagine that the nonstop Porting in the first game and Wasteland ONLY showing up at the very end of the first game prompted him to name Port. Sadly, I have one in hand and not a Wasteland.

On my turn I draw a Mountain I believe. Now, I could have played Skirk Prospector here but I wanted to have a red card to pitch to Pyrokinesis. Looking back on it though, the absolute right play was to run out the Skirk and use Warchief to pitch to Pyrokinesis - we don’t necessarily need haste to win this matchup and ESPECIALLY when he runs out Nexus first, I should have played Skirk on the off chance that I draw Blood Moon for turn 2. Either way, I don’t play Skirk.

On his turn, he animates Inkmoth and attacks. I indicate that I have no blocks and he Invigorates - I panic and cast Pyrokinesis pitching Skirk thinking that if I let it resolve, Berserk will kill me.

However, in my rush I forgot to note that Alan’s only green mana was his second land - the one used to animate Inkmoth. He couldn’t have Berserked me.

He casts a 2nd Invigorate and gets in for 9 poison. I’m incredibly screwed unless I draw another Kinesis or Wasteland.

I draw… Blood Moon. Had I played the Skirk, I could have resolved it to lock him out of the game. Admittedly, afterwards when I discussed with him, he had the Daze but that line SHOULD have been available to me. He had no other gas in hand.

Which means - had I played it PROPERLY - I should have taken 5 infect with no threat of Berserk and then Pyrokinesis’d the NEXT turn on his 2nd Invigorate. I would have taken the match there as I couldn’t have tapped out for Warchief to kill myself on Turn 2 - and in fact I would have played the Blood Moon had I Skirked, which means he would have Dazed that and Pyrokinesis would have gone through while tapped out.

Anyway, a lot of things went wrong for that match to end the way it did. Needle on Port instead of Wasteland (still salty), panic Pyrokinesis and not playing Skirk.

10-5 (23-16)

SB: 3 Blood Moon, 3 Pithing Needle, 3 Chalice of the Void

All in all - a good run! I really can’t complain about the result considering I’m playing Goblins but I do think that the event highlights a lot of weakness in my decklist.

Not having Tarfire main means I’m not able to pick off random Stoneforge, Mother of Runes, Elves, Infect creatures etc. Pyrokinesis is very good but it’s not Matron/Ringleader-able which means there were some situations where that would have been relevant.

Not splashing green meant my Tuktuks were a liability a few times. The additional shatter effect when landing both is explosive but it’s much better to have the 2 mana effect. What we really need is the Manic Vandal with Goblin typeline to get the best possible version :/

Leyline of the Void is probably trash. I dodged Reanimator all day like a G so it felt like a waste of space, but having it versus Dredge was cool. Relic is probably more relevant in all other matchups though.

Blood Moon rocked all day. I probably should have been bringing it in versus Elves looking back but it does so much work stealing matches that we’re losing or locking them out very early. I’d recommend it, even on a non-mono red build.

Krenko is an ABSOLUTE G and if you aren’t playing at least one you are literally wrong. Move your Siege-Gang to the board if you have to (I don’t as I don’t want to lose to Miracles Game 1 Moat if they play it?? Also it’s one of our turn 3 kills with Lackey). But Krenko does so much friggin work and is much better in many matchups than Piledriver. I know that the printing of Fatal Push is going to make him much worse but until something better comes along I can’t recommend Krenko highly enough. Perhaps Kiki-Jiki is worth testing in a Fatal Push meta?

This is probably what I’ll play going forward:

Lands (24)
4 Mountain
6 Fetches
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
1 Pendelhaven
1 Taiga
1 Plateau

Artifacts (4)
4 Aether Vial

Instants (3)
1 Pyrokinesis
2 Tarfire

Creatures (29)
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Piledriver
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Tin-Street Hooligan
1 Stingscourger
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

Sideboard (15):

3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Blood Moon
2 Wear//Tear
2 Pithing Needle
1 Tin-Street Hooligan
1 Pyrokinesis

Any questions, comments, discussion welcome. It was really fun meeting everyone who played Goblins there and discussing the deck and our matches. Hopefully we’ll see everyone again at a big Legacy event in the future!

Good hunting, Ringleaders :)

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Good Job!

I won't comment much on your list, as we spoke in person about it, but I really like your revised list based on the way you like to play.

Day 2 - Round 10: Matt on Shardless BUG

I was watching this match with you, and I think I mentioned this in person. When he Thoughtseized you he said the phrase "These are all bad for me" when your hand was Ringleader, Tuktuk Scrapper, and some other card. This should have informed you that he was going to drop an artifact he cared about, be it Needle or Jitte. The following turn you Double Wastelanded him and gave him a chance to get back in it, as you could not, and did not, cast that Scrapper that game. Both of those are an out to an active Krenko. You made the right technical play, and it first level play with a consistent deck gives consistent results, BUT he gave a very strong hint.

Round 15: Alan on Infect

Naming Port is actually wise of him for a couple of reasons there. If you Wasteland his only threat that buys him time to find another as you are also down a land, and your deck is very mana hungry. If you begin Porting him you can still set up your own game while stopping his from working. I think he made the correct line. Wasteland's opportunity cost is higher, and he took advantage of that fact.

I think the rest of your analysis is spot on what you could have done for the match.


Glad to have finally met one of you (well actually 2) in person.

[ScatmanX]

Hey Dan! Congrats for the finish! And thanks for writing a report! Love reading those.
Would be helpful to know what you side out against the matchups when you're writing it. I agree with your side ins, but in some MU's have no idea what are the few last worse cards to take out.
Really liked your thought process regarding that turn against Infect. Another good point in favour of playing out Prospector is that you could've drawn a Gempalm T2, making it useful. But the MU is quite skill intensive, and the right choice is often very hard to see.

[Sandro95]

Hi Dan, thanks for an excellent report!
Your list looks pretty great imo.
I have one question though. In the sneak and show matchup, did you consider holding needle to put into play off of show and tell? It gets around counter magic and allows you to name Griselbrand instead, should they put it in. Obviously this line is weaker to a hardcast sneak attack though.

[Sagratho]

Hey guys... let me ask something, How trash is run Tuktuk scraper 1 on main deck and 1 on SB, instead use 1 TSH main deck and 1 on SB??

I'm asking becouse without TSH we can run a couple of plateau thats give more consistency to our Whit Splash. Running THS we lose a plateau to only put ONLY 1 card on entire 75 cards.

Making my question better... with a couple plateau we run 5 fetch lands and 6 fetchable lands (4 mountains and 2 plateau). With Taiga and Plateau on deck, we need 6 fetchs having 5 fetchable lands (3 mountain and 2 dual). I'm really afraid of on lategame draw fetchs and fetch nothing. And to finish... if we gets wasteded... we never will play White SB again (I run Rest in Peace instead Relic and Run double Wear // Tear).

[Sandro95]

Hey guys... let me ask something, How trash is run Tuktuk scraper 1 on main deck and 1 on SB, instead use 1 TSH main deck and 1 on SB??

I'm asking becouse without TSH we can run a couple of plateau thats give more consistency to our Whit Splash. Running THS we lose a plateau to only put ONLY 1 card on entire 75 cards.

Making my question better... with a couple plateau we run 5 fetch lands and 6 fetchable lands (4 mountains and 2 plateau). With Taiga and Plateau on deck, we need 6 fetchs having 5 fetchable lands (3 mountain and 2 dual). I'm really afraid of on lategame draw fetchs and fetch nothing. And to finish... if we gets wasteded... we never will play White SB again (I run Rest in Peace instead Relic and Run double Wear // Tear).

Scrapper is fine. Being able to put it into play via Vial and destroy an artifact at instant speed is great. I don't think you need more than one though, if you're going to play two Wear//Tear as well.

Rest in Peace with only seven white sources however seems ambitious. It can be too slow vs Dredge and Reanimator, and you really want to play it on turn two vs those decks. I'd go for a split with other graveyard hate cards, and maybe play an extra white source.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

GP Louisville - Report

Hello everyone! As I mentioned I'd be writing my report at some point this week, and I apologize for the delay. Work kept me too tired to write it up until now.

I went into this event with two weeks notification as a Christmas gift from the family, so as much as I was grateful I also was improperly prepared. I never managed to nail out the final pieces of my deck list and ended up going with what I was most comfortable with.

The list I ended up taking:

MB
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Mountain
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Skirk Prospector
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg War Marshal
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Stingscourger
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Tarfire
2 Pyrokinesis
SB
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Containment Priest
2 Pithing Needle
1 Wear // Tear
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Tin Street Hooligan

I still hadn't figured out a few things.

Firstly I wanted my Pyrokinesis's in the board. It's not that the card is a bad maindeck card, it's that I want access to 8 or 9 straight kill spells post board against Infect and Elves. That came back to hurt me in the event itself.

Secondly I didn't have enough time to figure out where to fit Blood Moon into my board. My small amount of testing I did get done told me that the 2nd Krenko in the board was sufficient in handling decks that Blood Moon usually shines in, but that's not especially optimum. I eventually kept it the way it was due to the fear of Reanimator that everyone seems to have. I left those Surgical Extractions in at this time. In retrospect, I think I was playing scared and didn't truly need them. A second Stingscourger plus my normal game plan would have helped me far more for less SB slots.

Thirdly I wanted some form of Storm Hate, be it Mindbreak Trap, Grafdigger's Cage, or whatever, but as the deck is only 4% of the meta I ended up deciding that I could throw that match if it came down to me not finding space.

Disaster struck about 3 days before the event. I caught the Flu. I was feeling good enough to leave for the event, but I was not exactly in the best mindset.

The day before the event.
We had arrived a day early and had time to play for some buys. I did not win any on that day, but I did play against some fun stuff. I played against Jund, ANT, Infect, Food Chain, Big Red (Mono Red Sneak Attack), Esper Stoneblade, Eldrazi, and Shardless. I got lucky agains Storm and had an amazing match against Shardless, but ultimatley this little side adventure should have told me that Blood Moon was a priority. It was good against 6 of my 8 opponents. I read that info but did not act upon it. I even remember talking to some car-mates about it. I blame my sickness for incomplete critical thinking, and I blame me for not keeping my body in good enough shape.

GP Matches

Match 1 - Ethan on Oops All Spells
Game 1
My opponent won the die roll and chose to be on the draw. I kept a hand that could clock in 4 turns and had a Tarfire thinking I was against Manaless. This should have in theory let me race and plausibly break bridges by shocking my own Goblin Lackey if need be.

He led the game with Gitaxian Probe, Gitaxian Probe, Street Wraith and passed turn. Something's up. This isn't a typical line or keep from a dredge player. I jam my Lackey and just kind of beat him up while he does literally nothing.

Sideboarding
+3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, +2 Relic of Progenitus, +2 Surgical Extraction, +2 Containment Priest, +1 Pyrokinesis
-3 Goblin Ringleader, -2 Tarfire, -2 Mogg War Marshal, -1 Goblin Pileddriver, -1 ?

I hedged here, I wasn't entirely convinced he was on Manaless and boarded as if he were one of the other fast decks that wasn't literally Belcher, while still maxing out my Grave Hate. I don't remember the last card I boarded out, my notes even show "-1 ?" sitting there. I might have run with 61 at that point. Go me.

Game 2
My opponent chooses Play and goes off on turn 1 revealing that he is truly on Oops all spells.

Game 3
This is very similar to game 1, but it's two Street Wraith and 1 Gitaxian Probe. I just kind of beat him up.

Summary
He was on a budget build without LEDs. He lost to his own inconsistency both games, with Thalia helping along game 3.

Match 2 - Alan on Infect
Game 1
I win the die roll, mulligan, and play an AEther Vial. He responds by simply putting down a fetch and passing. I tick the Vial and play a Goblin Piledriver. His turn comes up and he cracks the fetch, lays a second Tropical Island and jams Blighted Agent. I die on the following turn to Invigorate + Berserk. I hate losing in this fashion. I had the ground clogged up and Wasteland in hand. I had all of my avenues covered but the scariest, hardest to interact one.

Sideboarding
+3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, +1 Pyrokinesis, +1 Tin Street Hooligan
-3 Goblin Ringleader, -1 Stingscourger, -1 Krenko, Mob Boss
I think I messed this up, more proof I wasn't playing properly all day. I didn't board in my Pithing Needles due to old habits that didn't change. In lists I have with 9 kill spells post board I don't think it's required, and I got used to that. Additionally I boarded out Stingscourger, which is interaction in this match-up. Don't do Influenza kids.

Game 2
On the play I have AEther Vial, Rishadan Port, and Pyrokinsis. I win this game in an expected fashion.

Game 3
I mulligan twice to a mediocre 5, but it, like my first hand, can beat anything but Blighted Agent into Invigorate + Berserk. I lose to that on turn 4.

Summary
In addition the poor sideboarding I also sequenced pretty poorly in these games. Didn't play around Daze, and noticed it directly afterwords, fetched at strange times, etc. At this point I was pretty mad at myself due to a few factors. I had a pretty bad Headache that started that morning. I could see myself making mistakes directly after making them, which is the fastest way to make myself tilt. I feel like I was playing as if I had only been playing Legacy for a Year. I think I would have lost that match anyway looking back, but I could have played it better. I took another 250MG of Acetaminophen and moved on.

Match 3 - Tom on Sneak & Show slight hybrid
Game 1
He wins the die roll and we both keep our 7. Tom Scalding Tarns into an Island, and Preordains both cards down and passes. I play a fetch and pass. Tom Preordains again and bottoms both, and passes without laying a land. I start to use Rishadan Port on his upkeep. He doesn't lay another land for quite some time, and at some point in this game he discarded an Omniscience to hand size. He then mentions out loud that "If I hadn't discarded my only out I think I could do this." This leads me to believe he only has 1 Omniscience. He never finds a second land until the turn before he dies. He reveals 3 Ponders in his hand with a sad smile and moves to board.

Sideboarding
I assume he's on Sneak and Show with 1 Omniscience as another win con to fight through D&T.
+3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, +2Containment Priest, +2 Pithing Needle, +1 Wear // Tear , +1 Tin Street Hooligan
-3 Goblin Ringleader, -2 Pyrokinesis, -2 Tarfire, -1 Gempalm Incinerator, -1 Goblin Sharpshooter,

Game 2
We play a typical game of Show & Tell into Stingscourger, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben to lock it and win.

Summary
I feel good about this match-up, especially the hybrid version he attempted to play with. It was just Sneak & Show but with some Cunning Wishes. Since he did not commit to either plan I as not as worried the entire match. Kozilek's Return costs 6 between the tutor and itself, where as a naturally drawn Pyroclasm hurts way more.

Match 4 - Gary on Elves
Game 1
He wins the die roll, we both mulligan and bottom our cards. He jams 2 Nettle Sentinal and I surprise him with a Pyrokinesis from a board of 2 Rishadan Ports, and AEther Vial. Unfortunately the game drags on long enough for him to recover and I die with a Tarfire in hand due to never having red mana. It happens.

Sideboarding
+2 Containment Priest, +2 Pithing Needle, +1 Pyrokinesis
-2 Goblin Pildriver, -2 Mogg War Marshal, -1 Stingscourger
Here is me being used to my old build with more kill spells again. I can't cut Stingscourger in this match with this few kill spells, and I improperly board out all of my Mogg War Marshal, which can shut off my Gempalm Incinerators.

Game 2
I mulligan to an lower end 6 with 4 lands (1 Rishadan Port, Wasteland), with Goblin Piledriver and Pyrokinesis, scrying an AEther Vial up top. He just kind of plays Gerruk Relentless and I am powerless to stop it. I prevent him from going off, but ultimatley the sub-par hand mixed with my poor draws got me dead. I'm not entirely sure if this keep was correct. It was a lower end 6, but surely that's better than a random 5. I actually put this loss on drawing 4 lands in my 7 draw steps that game, helped along with my topping of AEther Vial. I actually died to Garruk Relentless's ultimate.

Summary
Elves is a fine match-up, but I really am missing those extra kill spells today.

Additionally my Headache has not gotten better, and I probably should have dropped at this point as I got a cold chill, meaning my Fever came back. Being stupid me, I kept going with a liter of Green Tea.

Match 5 - Damon on Elves
Game 1
I keep a good 7 and he wins the die roll. I lost on turn 4 to a Craterhoof Behemoth through my Pyrokinesis and Tarfire. I think I had the tools to win this match, as he only did normal elves things, but I just don't remember much about this match other than thinking I shouldn't have died and that it was my fault.

Sideboarding
+2 Containment Priest, +2 Pithing Needle, +1 Pyrokinesis
-2 Goblin Pildriver, -2 Mogg War Marshal, -1 Stingscourger

With my autopilit I referred to my notes from the previous match and boarded the same, improper way. Man, I deserve these losses.

Game 2
I mulligan once and he twice. I beat him up with good ol' fashion Goblin Lackey beats with Pyrokinesis helping along. He never really stood up this game. Probably that mul to 5.

Game 3
No mulligans. We play a really long game that I eventaully took with superior board presence due to my card draw. This was all Gempalm Incinerator with Goblin Sharpshooter to finish it off.

Summary
Same deal. Elves is a fine match-up, but I really am missing those extra kill spells. Notably I wasn't playing any better, my hand just paired up properly. I still feel like my sequencing is way off.

Match 6 - Wesley on Storm (ANT)
Game 1
We both keep and he wins the die roll. I die on turn 2 with a Goblin Lackey in play to Tendrils of Agony. Noteably he is on ANT not TES.

Sideboarding
+3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, +2 Surgical Extraction, +2 Relic of Progenitus, +1 Wear // Tear, +1 Tin Street Hooligan, +1 Krenko, Mob Boss
-3 Goblin Ringleader, -2 Tarfire, -2 Pyrokinesis, -1 Gempalm Incinerator, -1 Stingscourger, -1 Mogg War marshal

Game 2
I jammed a Relic of Progenitus on T1 and a Thalia, Guardian of Thraben on T2 and won from there.

Game 3
I mulligan and keep a hand with a Relic of Progenitus, Surgical Extraction, and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. He cantrips and passes. I jam the Relic of Progenitus and pass it back. He goes off on T2 again. I attempt to snipe Dark Ritual in the middle of his sequence but he had enough floating mana to play the one he had in hand. I die to Tendrils of Agony again.

Summary
His hands were pretty fast, a tad faster than average, but not out of scope of what's to be expected. I lost due to my SB not respecting storm. I had all of the tools my deck can actually give me for those matches, so I can't complain there.

Match 7 - Cameron on Miracles
Game 1
I win the die roll and we keep our 7s. I find out pretty quickly my opponent is on Miracles, which is rough as my hand doens't have Goblin Matron or Goblin Ringleader. My AEther Vial was countered on T1 and I never had a Cavern of Souls. So this game grinds rather hard. At some point he removes my Stinscourger (that I had paid the echo on) with a Snapcaster Mage on Swords to Plowshares. This caused an event I will likely not see again in Legacy. For fear of being beaten down by the 2/1 as my hand was hot garbage, I paid 6 mana for a Pyrokinesis to kill it. He of course hard cast Force of Will. The battle of Alliance set cards did not end there for the same thing ocurred again on the following turn. I paid 6 mana for a Pyrokinesis and he once again Force of Willed back for 5 mana. Too efficient for me. I top deck a Tarfire and kill the 2/1, but die to a Jace, the Mind Scultpor that lands the following turn.

Sideboarding
I'm pretty bummed that I lost the grind to Miracles. I have a greater understanding as to why the deck is good though. Imagine this, some decks simply can't draw 8 extra cards in a game. I hurts to think about, I know.

+2 Pithing Needle, +1 Wear // Tear
-2 Tarfire, -1 Stingscourger

I will board in Thalia, Guardian of Thraben if I didn't already have 3 cards to bring in. I value Goblin Ringleader in this match far more than I value Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

Game 2
We keep our 7s and the game slowly starts up. I have a hand tailor made for defeating Miracles, Multiple Goblin Matrons and Goblin Ringleaders with a Pithing Needle naming Sensei's Divining Top. Then the most amazing set of things happened. I died.

End of my turn 5 he Kozilek's Return killing a 1/1 and a 2/2, he jams a Jace, the Mind Sculptor on his turn. I follow up with Goblin Matron for Goblin Ringleader and a Goblin Piledriver passing turn with a 1/1 and a 1/2 in play. He Terminus. I recommit and bother Jace for 2. He Terminus. I recommit yet again, and get Swords to Plowshared on the 2/2. I Recommit yet again and see another 2 STP's, one from Snapcaster Mage. Jace, the Mind Sculptor is brainstorming as fast as he can here. I jam 2 more threats, yet again, Mogg War Marshal and Goblin Piledriver, and get Terminus again. He takes his turn and jams Wear on my Pithing Needle naming Sensei's Divining Top and goes off with Monastery Mentor and the two Dreidels. I interact and get rid of the Mentor, but he managed to get 3 tokens out of it. I jam a Goblin Warchief and another Goblin Piledriver, unable to attack. He Entreats the Angels for 5 on his turn, and ships it back. It's the first time I've ever conceded a fair match up with 2 Goblin Matrons in hand and a Warchief in play at the start of my turn.

That game ended and I literally went "WOW!" and he responded with "I KNOW!"

Summary
Those were both very unusual games, but at least I got those stories out of it. I don't think I could have done much more, sometimes you both run hot, but they hotter. Sweet game.

Match 8 - Don on Turbo Depths
Game 1
We both keep our 7s and he is on the play. He leads with Dark Depths. Fearing Pithing Needle, as there has been some Turbo Depths running around the room I immediately Wasteland his Dark Depths, as hands that run it out often have Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth into Vampire Hexmage. He drops a new Dark Depths, two Lotus Petals and a Vampire Hexmage on his follow up turn. I wasn't that far off, I die on the following turn.

In retrospect I could have waited, as he had already committed the threat, I could wait for the needle and respond to it. In all cases, his hand was very good.

Sideboarding
+3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, +2 Surgical Extraction, +2 Relic of Progenitus, +2 Pithing Needle, +1 Wear // Tear, +1 Krenko, Mob Boss
-3 Goblin Ringleader, -2 Mogg War Marshal, -2 Tarfire, -2 Pyrokinesis, -1 Gempalm Incinerator

Game 2
We keep our 7s. I lead on AEther Vial. He drops just a Thespian's Stage. I tick Vial to 1 and Vial in a Skirk Prospector, which I sac for mana to cast Goblin Matron searching up Stingscourger. He drops some Lotus Petal and Dark Depths, representing the combo, passing turn. I tick Vial to 2 and pass turn, attempting to Port him on his upkeep, to force him to go off. He makes a 20/20 and I attempt to Stingscourger with AEther Vial. He casts Not of This World and hits me for 20 after drawing a card for turn.

Summary
I interacted on each event in a relevant fashion, probably a bit too early in game 1, and lost anyway. Not really sure what to say here. Pithing Needle would have been very good had I drawn it.

On the bright side I don't feel nearly as sick now that it doesn't matter.

Match 9 - Meriwether on Infect
Game 1
We keep our 7s, and she is on the play. She quickly reveals she is on infect with a Tropical Island for Noble Hierarch. I suppose this could be bant, but in both cases I am bolting that bird, or in this case, Tarfire-ing. She eventually gets an Inkmoth Nexus online and hits me for 5 poison off of a kicked Vines of Vastwood. I start using multiple Rishadan Port in a fashion that would make Richard Garfield cry, and won the game from there with some normal beats. Love me some port.

Sideboarding
+3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, +2 Pithing Needle, +1 Pyrokinesis
-3 Goblin Ringleader, -1 Krenko, Mob Boss, -1 Goblin Piledriver, -1 Stingscourger

It seems I pulled my head out of my ass and boarded a bit better. still cutting that Stingscourger seems loose though. I'm glad I note this stuff down at least. Still I think that is a force of habit, AKA me on autopilot again.

Game 2
Very similar to game 1, but with Multiple Pyrokinesis. [cards]Rishadan Port[cards] is very, very good.

Summary
My hand paired up very well this time round, and I believe it will tend to do that on the average against infect, especially if there are 6 mainboard kill spells, 1 Stingscourger, 1 Goblin Sharpshooter AND 3 Pyrokinesis in the board as I usually play.

GP Louisville Matches Summary
So I went 4/5. I played like shit and got rewarded as such. My deck wasn't tuned and ultimately all of these factors resulted in my record. I was sick most of this event and watched myself play poorly in what felt like slow motion. That said, this event was a blast, and I had a ton of fun. Noteably I didn't play against Reanimator OR D&T, which is confusing. I know they were there. The Show & Tell player in our car played against D&T Rounds 1 - 4 and again in like round 7, he admirably won 2 of the matches. I saw Reanimator out and about, but never played against it.

The day after the event.
I played some more side events the day after as well with a slightly different board. I found the side events pull out players who like sweet stuff, and sweet stuff tends to die to Naturalize.

3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Containment Priest
2 Pithing Needle
2 Wear // Tear
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Pyrokinesis

This time round I played against Abzan Nic Fit, Sneak & Show, Soldier Stompy, and Grixis Delver.

The Soldier Stompy player, Sean, seemed so happy that I recognized what deck he was on off of the turn 1 Suppression Field. It seemed whoever won the die roll would win the match, too much momentum. There was an upset though. I died that day to a 28/28 Selfless Squire on the crackback from my alpha strike. I was NOT playing around that, I was playing around multiple STPs though, which is why I didn't have any blockers.


Overall Summary
10/10 Would play a Legacy GP again. I think we can work on my list a bit here. If someone put a gun to my head and said run the event back, I'd do the below list.

MB
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Mountain
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Skirk Prospector
3 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg War Marshal
2 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Stingscourger
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
2 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Tarfire
SB
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Containment Priest
2 Blood Mooon
2 Pithing Needle

I'm not sure this is exactly optimum either, but it does what I want. I really do like having as many Piledriver's as possible though. Also I really like how good Tarfire is at doing it's thing. 1 mana removal is at a premium in Legacy, even if it's shock.

Thanks for reading, hope you learned from my mistakes!

[1GoblinLackey]

Hey everyone!

Happy to read everyone's GP reports (even with Olaf's unfortunate condition and luck). I wish I could have been there!

A shop near me has started to run 15 proxy legacy events (non-sanctioned of course) and I'd like to start really tuning my sideboard for the meta that will arise. I'm finally almost done with the maindeck (1 port and 1 cavern away, though I'm questioning the relative importance of a 4th port). Anyway, I'm having trouble really deciding what to change. It feels...decent right now, but I think could still be optimized. I'll include a list of cards that I own/can get ahold of at the end of the list as the "maybeboard" of what I'm considering.

A few things before my list! Smuggler's Copter is still great, and I'm happy with the 2 I'm running. If you're curious, I'll gladly try to sell you on the card (though I've already tried to do so in the thread). I've also acquired 2 Thalia's and an Eidolon of the Great Revel as spell based combo hate. Is there a particular need to get the 3rd Thalia, or is diversifying okay? Double red is a little difficult, but I'm also running more red sources than stock lists, so it's probably better than usual. Eidolon seems good against Elves too, for what it's worth.

An idea I'm toying with is swapping out the pendelhaven or the GQ for a Karakas. I have a lot of people around who really enjoy slamming big legendary creatures (particularly Griseldad) into play, so it seems decent to have. Protecting Krenko's nice too. I'm struggling with the idea of going up to 23 lands, which may be optimal since I now have a fetch-dual manabase instead of all basics, but I feel like 23 will result in flooding. Copter helps with land drops, but I'm more vulnerable to wasteland now. I'm definitely torn on this.

Here's the meta that I'm expecting;
Grixis Delver (splashing green for 2 abrupt decay in board off 1 trop)
Big Red
High Tide
Enchantress (oh god why)
Maverick (not loam heavy version, relic is not particularly effective against them in all of our matches. My most frequent opponent)
Elves
Burn (without Goblin Guide, matchup seems more even than I thought it would be)
UW Stasis (deck hasn't changed since 2007 I think. Is beautiful though. Kinda impossible to lose to)
Belcher (ugh)
Eldrazi
Storm (ANT)
D&T x2
RG Lands
Infect (mono-green right now, but he might proxy up the blue cards)
BR reanimator x2 (super not fun. It's worth noting that it's just 1 guy who has BR reanimator, Big Red, and Omnisneak, so I won't ever see them all in a single event, unless he starts lending the decks out)
Manaless Dredge
Omnisneak
Punishing Jund

These are the known possibilities, but who knows who will turn up at the promise of proxied legacy. Hopefully all miracles players :tongue:


My Current List; Looting Scootin Goblin Gang
Artifacts: 6
4 Vial
2 Smuggler's Copter

Creatures: 30

4 Lackey
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
3 Mogg War Marshal
3 Gempalm
1 Piledriver
1 Sharpshooter
1 Prospector
1 Chieftain
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Krenko
1 Stingscourger

Instants: 2
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Tarfire

Lands: 22
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Cavern
3 Port
3 Mountain
1 Plateau
1 Pendelhaven
1 Ghost Quarter (fairly sure this should be another mountain, I think only 4 fetchables is too low)

Sideboard: 15
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Blood Moon
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Eidolon of the Great Revel
1 Piledriver
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Warping Wail
1 REB

Maybeboard: Things I want to/could put into the Sideboard, but don't know what to take out.
2 Thalia (highest priority)
1/2 Wear//Tear (would be very nice to have against D&T and makes enchantress winnable)
1 Stingscourger
1 Relic of Progenitus/ Tormod's Crypt (more ways to stop BR reanimator/Dredge from going off turn 1 is nice. Relic isn't doing much against a lot of the decks in the room, there are no goyfs as far as I know.)
1 REB
Purphoros, God of the Forge (Has this been tried before? I swear I saw it on a stream once and it looked pretty sweet in the 75. Maybe too cute/my meta's not grindy enough for it to be good. Seems great against Shardless and the like.

Thanks for any assistance everyone!

Onto other, more widely applicable issues; There has been a rare shift in the overall legacy meta I since the GP. mtggoldish.com's breakdown of the meta shows that miracles seems to be losing its stranglehold on the format (only 12% compared to 20% last year, if I remember correctly) and Sultai Delver has supplanted Grixis as the most popular delver deck. But the 2 biggest new decks that are getting popular (I think) are all the leovold brews (either Reid Duke's winning list, or in Alluren combo) and BR Reanimator. Obviously, the rise of such a degenerate fast combo deck is quite bad for us, and I saw earlier in the thread both Dan and Olaf agree that it's better to just try to dodge it than fill up too much of the sideboard to fight it. Is this the general consensus of those playing in a relatively "representative" meta?

As far as Leovold decks, how do you other goblins pilots think the matchup is? I have yet to actually play against it much, but here are my thoughts;
- 4 TNN is quite a beating, clearly. The mana base is kinda shaky though, so if it's possible to kill the dorks and do some waste/port plays, keeping them off of it while you buy time for vial seems relatively possible. Jitte on TNN is probably game over though.
- Leovold himself doesn't actually seem too concerning. There are situations where he can completely dominate the game, but if they just tap out for him on turn 2 or 3, Gempalming him on one of their end steps seems like quite a tempo loss for them, and you still get the card. It's quite fortunate that Matron and Ringleader aren't worded as draws, or else he'd be way scarier.
- The deck plays a lot of blue creatures, so Piledriver might finally be relevant in a creature matchup again. Reid's deck only ran a single goyf, so I imagine big 'driver swings can get there pretty often.
- Daze is a pretty big difference over normal BUG decks like Shardless. I can't decide whether or not this makes the matchup better or worse (I'm inclined to say worse, just as we can often strand it in their hands/make it irrelevant with Cavern and Vial
- Lackey also seems decent because of the Noble Hierarchs. Much easier to hit on turn 2 because you can gempalm the dork (unlike DRS, cursed be its name)
- No toxic deluge in the 75 makes swarming pretty easy. Perhaps this changes as people tune his deck for different metas.

Overall, I believe that Reid's deck is not as tough a matchup as Shardless BUG, but perhaps I'm way off base here. Curious to hear everyone else's thoughts.

Thanks for reading my long post (once more). I gotta start posting in smaller chunks. I'll try to get better at that for the sake of the forum.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

I would take the following board to your meta.

3 Pyrokinesis
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Wear // Tear
2 Blood Moon
2 Mindbreak Trap

You can get away with no Needle because of Blood Moon for the lands match-ups, and Wear // Tear has active text outside of the normal destroying equipment against Stasis, Enchantress, and Sneak Attack. Eidolon of the Great Revel will work 100% fine in place of Thalia. I don't think it's as good, but I do think it's splitting hairs on it being worse. Honestly the thing holding it back is RR to cast. After that you can go ahead and let Reanimator get 1 in, followed by locking them out with Thalia or Cage after Stingscourging their threat. Trap is good against Elves, Storm, Belcher, and High Tide. It's probably worth testing against Mono Red Sneak Attack as well, but I can't confirm or deny on that one. I actually think you have more reason to run Mindbreak Trap than I usually justify to myself when I end up running it. The only thing I don't like about this proposed list is the lack of the second Stingscourger. It would have to go over the Grafdigger's Cage if you ran it, but I'm not convinced that's better. Additionally, due to the lack of Relic, I would consider swapping the Siege-Gang Commander over to a Krenko as well as an extra way to fight Goyf and KoTR.

Lose the Ghost Quarter, just make sure you can cast your spells, jam a color in that slot. If it's not as powerful as Port or Wasteland, it's probably not worth justifying the loss of the color fixing.

Fighting Leovold in my experiences results in 2 options. Efficiently answering it as a 1:1 or 1:2 OR giving them about 4 free cards. Somehow both options were fine, but only because I usually run 4 Piledrivers. He is a 3/3 and can clock you back pretty hard, but I've been able to check him with ease due to this. If he is checked, and my opponent is drawing free cards, that is only because I am buying a ton of tempo. It was pretty okay. I imagine if you have less than 2 Piledriver's though this could easily become a big issue. I'd agree his list isn't really prepared to beat Goblins, and it looks WAY better than the Shardless Match-up, but this could easily be fixed if someone sees you in their meta and jams some number of Marsh Casualties, or Jitte.

Reid's list for everyone's viewing pleasure. (http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gplou17/top-8-decklists-2017-01-08#reid_dukes_true-name_nemesis_sultai)

[griffinpride23]

Hi all!

First, I'm super happy to have stumbled across an active Goblins thread. MTG Salvation's thread doesn't seem very responsive to new posts or lists.

Second, I've never piloted Goblins before. It has always been very much into Modern since I've been playing at the LGS; but, there has been an interest in more Legacy play and a push for Legacy FNMs. I decide to build goblins because it looks like a ton of fun to pilot, seem very well positioned to take on blue, and I really like playing them in Commander. A friend of mine managed to secure a trade at GP Louisville to get the Cavern of Souls' and Rishadan Port's I needed to finish a list. Overall, this is my first list based off what I've read on here, various articles on major MTG sites, and watching game play on Youtube. The "meta" is blind currently, but I know there is a Tezzerator, Combo Elves, Grixis Delver, and UG Infect floating around in a few peoples backpacks.

[LANDS] - 23
6 Rx Fetchland
3 Mountain
2 Badlands
1 Taiga
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port

[CREATURES] - 30
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
1 Stingscourger
2 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg War Marshal
2 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Matron
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Krenko, Mob Boss

[ARTIFACTS] - 4
4 Aether Vial

[OTHER SPELLS] - 3
2 Tarfire
1 Warren Weirding

NO BOARD YET, but I'm looking at Cabal Therapy and Thoughsieze (hence the Badlands in the main)

Any feedback would be great. Looking over the last few pages of the forum, it look like maybe cutting Tarfire or MD Pyrokinesis would be a solid move (with a known elf deck especially). I also thought about cutting -1 Skirk Prospector, -1 Goblin Sharpshooter, and 2 Goblin Piledriver for +1 Krenko, Mob Boss, +1 Gempalm Incinerator, and +2 Mogg War Marshal. There seems to be a split on whether Piledriver is as effective or not. I kinda like the set up now, but it really seems like a super stock list.

Couple of other thoughts that I had while brewing this up. What about running Wort, Boggart Auntie? The only major set back that I see is that she doesn't impact the board at all but recurring Tarfires or Incinerators seems pretty cool in theory, maybe another way to recover from a boardwipe? Although it doesn't appear that boardwipes are all that terrible if you literally play your cards right. The other idea I had was building Punishing Goblins. There are already some heavier green splashes on this forum, incorporating Grove of the Burnwillows and utilizing Punishing Fire over Tarfire seems very doable maybe a list like this?

[LANDS] - 22
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
3 Mountain
2 Taiga
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
1 Pendelhaven

[CREATURES] - 27
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Warren Instigator
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Matron
2 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Ringleader

[ARTIFACTS] - 7
3 Lotus Petal
4 Aether Vial

[OTHER SPELLS] - 4
4 Punishing Fire

I don't know, just a list off the top of my head. I like Lotus Pedal better than Chrome Mox because we don't lose a card to get our 2 mana on Turn 1.

That's it for now, I look forward to collaborating with everyone and, til next time, Happy Gaming!!

[mistercakes]

I'd recommend some non zero number of the chrome mox over the lotus petals as goblin mana can be pretty tight and the chrome mox is often used several times for mana the games they are drawn. (turn 1 instigator into turn 2 Chieftain can be important)

With instigator you'll probably want a Kiki-Jiki in there. It's a bit too strong if you're holding a matron even if you don't have a toolbox of other goblins.

It's a tricky deck to pilot, so I'd recommend using some lists that have shown to work (there's a few to choose from. Play the hell out of them and then think about what you'd like to change then. You said yourself you haven't tried the decks yet, so I'd recommend this.)

[Mantis]

Picked up Goblins yet again. Currently trying out this list:

4 Aether Vial
4 Lightning Bolt

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Mountain
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Taiga
1 Karakas
1 Plateau

SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

No love for Warchiefs here. They just seem like juicy targets for StP, Abrupt Decay or Bolt. I wanted to keep the curve as low as possible without giving up too much power. 4 Bolts, 4 Vial, 4 Lackey and 1 Fanatic give me a turn 1 play mostly. With 4 Piledrivers, 4 Gempalm, 1 MWM and 1 Thalia there is pretty much a turn 2 play always and turn 3, 2 spells can be played. Additionally, the list packs a fair bit of disruption between 3 Port, 4 Waste and 1 Thalia as mana disruption along with 4 Bolt to shoot down Deathrite or Tin Street to nuke Aether Vial. Bolt is also good against planeswalkers and multiple Bolts give reach to finish an opponent. Additionally, a Karakas is there to protect Thalia and Krenko, but it does double duty to slow down Show and Tell and Reanimator decks which are all over the place. It's also great against opposing Legendary creatures. The Piledrivers seem good now that so many decks play Jace TMS, True Name Nemesis and Leovold. Finally, with 10 creature kill spells, Lackey gets through fairly often.

Sideboard aims to hate out all the unfair decks such as Elves, Reanimator, Show and Tell, ANT etc. For example, vs. ANT there are 12 relevant cards to board in and vs. Show and Tell you can board in 9 cards.

TL;DR: Cut Warchiefs for relevant cards, play a sideboard that is almost exclusively aimed at beating up the unfair decks.

What are your thoughts on 0 Warchief and only 1 Chieftain? Is it nuts or reasonable?

[Chatto]

By cutting Warchief, and playing just one Haste-lord, you are taking away some of the power imho. You mention Lightning Bolt being a t1 play? As a removal-spell it won't go upstairs, unless it has to. The lone Fanatic is nice, but seems a bit weird (on a sidenote, I do miss the 'old Fanatic').

[Mantis]

Yes I was thinking about the same thing yesterday. The old Fanatic would have been great in this Deathrite Shaman infested metagame. Lone Fanatic is basically there because sometimes I want to kill a one mana dork and Fanatic is there. It's also good for providing bodies for Piledriver and Gempalm Incinerator.

I only send Bolt upstairs if I can kill my opponent of course. It's a disruptive piece to get Lackey online, slow the opponent down to get to the endgame or clear out planeswalkers. I could see the merit of replacing one of the Bolts with Tarfire, providing the deck with some additional flexibility.

My reason for omitting Warchief is that I think our manacurve becomes way too high for the current state of Legacy. It does not attack very profitably and if the opponent counters or removes it, it's a huge tempo swing whilst card parity is maintained. Of course, the games where you go Warchief, Matron, Matron, Piledriver and swing for a bunch will be missed, but with clever play these games should favor you anyway.

The most important reason for my weird list is that given the current state of affairs, we need to do things differently. Just playing a stock Goblin list of yore is not a tournament winning strategy, we all know that. However, I do truly believe in the power of Aether Vial paired with Wasteland, Port and efficient removal to get rid of mana dorks.

[1GoblinLackey]

I would take the following board to your meta.

3 Pyrokinesis
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Wear // Tear
2 Blood Moon
2 Mindbreak Trap

You can get away with no Needle because of Blood Moon for the lands match-ups, and Wear // Tear has active text outside of the normal destroying equipment against Stasis, Enchantress, and Sneak Attack. Eidolon of the Great Revel will work 100% fine in place of Thalia. I don't think it's as good, but I do think it's splitting hairs on it being worse. Honestly the thing holding it back is RR to cast. After that you can go ahead and let Reanimator get 1 in, followed by locking them out with Thalia or Cage after Stingscourging their threat. Trap is good against Elves, Storm, Belcher, and High Tide. It's probably worth testing against Mono Red Sneak Attack as well, but I can't confirm or deny on that one. I actually think you have more reason to run Mindbreak Trap than I usually justify to myself when I end up running it. The only thing I don't like about this proposed list is the lack of the second Stingscourger. It would have to go over the Grafdigger's Cage if you ran it, but I'm not convinced that's better. Additionally, due to the lack of Relic, I would consider swapping the Siege-Gang Commander over to a Krenko as well as an extra way to fight Goyf and KoTR.

Lose the Ghost Quarter, just make sure you can cast your spells, jam a color in that slot. If it's not as powerful as Port or Wasteland, it's probably not worth justifying the loss of the color fixing.

Fighting Leovold in my experiences results in 2 options. Efficiently answering it as a 1:1 or 1:2 OR giving them about 4 free cards. Somehow both options were fine, but only because I usually run 4 Piledrivers. He is a 3/3 and can clock you back pretty hard, but I've been able to check him with ease due to this. If he is checked, and my opponent is drawing free cards, that is only because I am buying a ton of tempo. It was pretty okay. I imagine if you have less than 2 Piledriver's though this could easily become a big issue. I'd agree his list isn't really prepared to beat Goblins, and it looks WAY better than the Shardless Match-up, but this could easily be fixed if someone sees you in their meta and jams some number of Marsh Casualties, or Jitte.

Reid's list for everyone's viewing pleasure. (http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gplou17/top-8-decklists-2017-01-08#reid_dukes_true-name_nemesis_sultai)

Thanks a lot for the board advice! Unfortunately, despite trading extensively for things (finally got my plateau!), not a single person had a single cage or mindbreak. So it appears I'm still stuck with surgicals and 1 cage for now, which I think is fine. Mindbreak does seem pretty important so I could just buy them. I would really like to keep the piledriver in the board to have against combo decks that I just need to clock quickly. Maybe it just belongs in the main, but then I'd have to either do a 2-2 split with driver and war marshal (which I don't like very much) or a copter (which I also don't like because I think they're quite strong/am still gathering data on them). Hopefully I can go to an event soon and fully make up my mind on the Copter plan. My gut tells me they solve some significant deck problems, but I'm still not quite sure.


On mana bases, I've picked up a karakas and am testing it in the "flex slot" I have. I'm actually at 5 fetches right now instead of 6, and I think having 4 mountains over 3 is better. If I went up to 23 land (which I'd probably do when I get the 4th cavern) then 6 fetches seems right, but I haven't had any trouble with casting thalia on turn 2 most games. I guess I'll see how it goes the more data I gather. Pendelhaven may be unnecessary, so perhaps I could just do a straight swap there.

[ScatmanX]

Oh God Mantis is nice to see you back.
As for your list, I have no idea what to think. Please test and let us know if it works. My only opinion is that Piledriver sucks without Warchief ( he's very bad even with Chieftain) so I'd think of replacing him for Instigator as your 2drop of choice.
And would like to know why are you playing Bolts over Tarfires. I get the pros and cons, but don't think there are many relevant 3 toughness creatures to deal with that would make me want to play bolt in thia meta.

Which leads me to:
Leovold.
Seriously. He is a 3 mana 3/3. That's it. And he's blue. He's shit shit against us. We play against relicary. Just ignore him until you win. And gempalming him is still 1 for 1. Even though I think I'd rather gempalm a Noble than him. I get the fuzz about the card, but it is garbage against us.

Someone asked about:
Wort
It's a good card. But then they printed Krenko. And that's it. The scenarios that sort would be better than krenko are so scarce that it is just not worth it.

And someone suggested:
Purphoros
It's a lovely card. I really love it. Comes in against all grindy matchup without stifles or dazes. Problem is, Blood Moon is better against all those mathups.
But if you wanna live the dream one day, play him with Krenko. Fun guaranteed.

@griffinpride:
I'm not gonna comment on your lists, because reasons, but since you're new to the deck, my suggestion would be (as mistercakes) use a proven list. Play a bit with it. THEN make changes. Netdecking is good when you're new to stuff.

@olaf: thanks for the report. Bad beats, but very helpful to read.

@goblinlackey: please let us know your testing of copter. I'm very interested (even though extremely skeptic).

Sent from my SM-J500M using Tapatalk

[1GoblinLackey]

Purphoros
It's a lovely card. I really love it. Comes in against all grindy matchup without stifles or dazes. Problem is, Blood Moon is better against all those mathups.
But if you wanna live the dream one day, play him with Krenko. Fun guaranteed.



@goblinlackey: please let us know your testing of copter. I'm very interested (even though extremely skeptic).

Sent from my SM-J500M using Tapatalk

If my meta changed to a bunch of Shardless, I think I would definitely slot him in as a one-of in the board. Seems insane in the grindy midrange mirror.

So my testing of copter goes back to last November at this point, and I've played it in a lot of different iterations, making it a wee bit difficult to fully codify. I've probably played 70-80ish matches with the card across all versions of Goblins including it. The majority of my testing was against random opponents on Cockatrice, with a decent chunk coming from a friend of mine who I consider an extremely good player (no credentials other than top 8s at a few SCG IQs. Take my word for it though, a very high skill player). He offered to let me test against a bunch of different decks. For what it's worth (he's an Elves and Storm player primarily), he was impressed with copter. My paper version has also been playing copter now, but not for long enough to be statistically significant. My manabase in paper is also not quite complete, making comparisons a little more difficult. I'll therefore disregard my paper results from my conclusions. (I can say it's good against Maverick, that's about it)


I started out on the full 4 copter plan just to make testing more efficient as I would draw it more often. I was playing 3 for quite awhile, but I've decided on 2 because it was too difficult to sideboard properly without taking too many goblins out for ringleader purposes (ie. bringing in 2-3 relics and 2 blood moon against Shardless means ringleader's gonna be a lot worse, as you'll have 13 non-goblin spells; 3 relic, 2 blood moon, 1-2 prokinesis, 3 copter, 4 vial). So I'd say the frequency you'd like to draw copter at is the equivalent of having 3 in the deck, but you can only realistically fit in 2.

I took down match results on my phone, with small annotations occasionally for when Copter was especially good (though I definitely slacked off on this as time went on).

Here is exactly what I have written out from my phone; these are all matches against the random Cockatrice opponents. I attached small notes to each title to contextualize the kind of list I was playing. I started with black splash version, with earwig squad and grenzo, to a green splash, to monored, to now with a white splash. Something I never tried was a piledriver-heavy (3-4) list, as that seems to be a plain nonbo (if you have creatures crewing, the piledriver won't be as big).

Smuggling Goblins 1.0 (4 Copter, only 1 piledriver SB)
2-0 Stiflenaught
2-0 Dragon Stompy
0-2 Dragon Stompy
2-0 Merfolk
2-1 Shardless
2-1 Shardless (mull to 5, siege-gang saves me)
0-2 Food Chain (never played against it before, didn't know what I was doing)
2-0 BUG Delver
2-1 Elves
0-2 Eldrazi
2-1 Eldrazi
2-1 Storm
2-1 Storm
2-1 Nic Fit
2-1 D&T
2-1 UR Delver

Smuggling Goblins 2.0 (3 copter, 3 warmarshal, 1 piledriver, 1 grenzo, dungeon warden)
1-2 Punishing Maverick (copter extremely good)
2-0 Thopter/Sword
2-1 Eldrazi (copter good)
1-0 (....splinter twin? The person left after game 1. It happens occasionally)
1-2 MUD (only because of insane luck with a topdecked ugin. Do think I misplayed during the last game though. Copter still good, dodged ugin's minus game 1)

Smuggling Goblins 3.0 (-1 Grenzo, +1 Piledriver, 2 total)
2-0 MUD
2-1 BUG, but not shardless or delver. Saw DRS, Liliana, and TNN. (Copter all star game 1. Double copter is very quick clock)
2-1 Stiflenaught (was salty about a krenko going nuts)
2-0 4 Color Delver
2-0 Reanimator, with a stompy twist, chalice and ancient tomb
2-0 Soldier Stompy
2-0 Pox
2-0 Big Red/ Mono-Red Sneak attack (copter great, survived inferno titan and let me swing for lethal over it)
0-2 Storm (punted by not putting chalice on 0)
1-2 Infect (punted on a pyrokinesis)
2-0 Dredge
2-1 Enchantress
0-2 BR Reanimator
1-1 4 Color Landstill (we decided to call it a draw)
2-0 Miracles

Smuggling Goblins 4.0, heavier green splash, warping wail sb, 3 copter
2-1 Sneak and Show
2-0 Sneak and Show
1-2 Merfolk (died because of lack of red source all game)
0-2 UR Delver
2-0 Miracles

Unhelpfully, my notes here just say "new sideboard"
0-2 Omnitell (punt)
2-0 Shardless (krenko FTW)
0-2 Shardless
2-1 4 Color Deathblade (nothing on copter, but managed to beat SoFI and Jitte on a containment priest. Dunno how I managed that)


Smuggling Goblins 5.0 (white splash for Thalia in the board, I believe I was now at 2 Copters)
2-1 Omni-Tell
0-2 Nic Fit
2-0 Pox
2-1 Nic Fit
2-0 Infect
1-2 Turbo Depths (punted away the game somehow, drew 4 wastelands and still lost. Didn't play around crop rotation)
0-2 Goblin Mirror w/ Vial Smasher, Fireblast, other nonsense. Was fun though!
2-0 Goblin mirror rematch
1-0 D&T (left after game 1)
1-2 GB Infect (deck is terrifying, died on turn 2 with them on a mull to 5)

I'm not sure where these matches fit into the testing timeline, but here they are nonetheless. My phone notes got disordered somehow.

Smuggling Goblins, Green splash, back to chalices in SB, 3 Copters
0-2 Infect
2-1 Nic Fit
1-2 D&T(sidenote for myself; be more aggressive)

Heavier green splash, 4 Copters, 1 sharpshooter--was cut from the initial version of the deck along with prospector
2-0 Pox (beat engineered plague twice)
2-0 Enchantress
0-2 Shardless (died to goyf)
1-2 D&T (drew terrible game 3, game 1 was illustration of "going wide")

As for my matches with my friend, we've tested matches against Shardless, D&T, Elves, Eldrazi, and Grixis Delver. I don't have match results taken down, the games played factors in how I adjusted my list since.

Conclusions and Analysis;
Copter has a couple of important effects on the deck in terms of how you play it. I like to think of the Copter as a colorless Delver that dodges wraths. It allows you play a tempo game you couldn't really play before. Once the copter is on board, the plan becomes matron for gempalms to make sure you survive, and just supply a steady number of 1/1s as crew. The loot can usually draw you into action while ditching those late game lackey and vials. Copter plus a few ground attacks makes it so you can hit for 4-5 damage without compromising your board position, or using your warchiefs for dangerous combats. MWM makes crewing trivial, I can recall only a single game where I was unable to crew the copter when I needed to. The echo creatures pair particularly well with Copter, as you crew in your upkeep before they die.

There are definitely some metagame gaps in my testing (one of which happens to be miracles, which I only encountered twice and one sided into a landstill deck). Also, it's important to keep in mind that Cockatrice isn't exactly the most competitive venue, so my win-loss ratio may be slightly inflated there. However, you can also look at the results with the caveat of myself not being a particularly experienced Goblins pilot. I've only been really playing a proper version of the deck for a few months now. I'm also relatively new to the Legacy format as a whole, so at many times I was playing against archetypes for the first time ever (I believe this is true for GB Depths, BR reanimator, D&T, and Deathblade). Since this is the case, you could probably boost the percentage a few points if we want to examine "deck power" rather than pilot effectiveness. Goblins is hard to play 100% right!

Based on my testing, I believe Copter significantly improves our odds against; Shardless, D&T, BUG Delver, Deathblade Variants. The evasion+loot is very nice against Shardless in particular, and dodging Toxic Deluge is absolutely huge. It does a nice job of stretching opponents' Abrupt Decays thin. I found that my hastelords and vials were more likely to survive because they spent the removal on the Copter. Against D&T, it makes SoFI not as much of a knockout punch. You can block the equipped creature and loot, while denying them a card and shock that they'd have normally. It also blanks Mother of Runes, as protection from a color is useless.

Somewhat improves: Grixis Delver, Eldrazi, Infect, Miracles, other delver variants (dodges terminus if they do it on their draw step, allows you to continue putting pressure on). The biggest downside against a bunch of these decks is that it's a juicy target for them to daze on turn 2. Typically better to wait on it. If only you could Vial it in! Against infect, it blocks Inkmoth, which can be quite relevant

Neutral/ Slightly Worse: Fast combo, ie Storm or Reanimator, Elves. Marginally better against Reanimator than Storm because a flying blocker is occasionally important to buy a turn. Against storm you just need to try to prison them out with Thalia and Chalice then kill quickly with Piledriver You don't really have time to cast it against Elves, though a flying attacker can be relevant if it becomes a race.

Significantly Worse: I dunno what it makes that much worse to be honest. Perhaps it's quite bad against the combo decks just in terms of how you are now building your deck to accommodate it (only 1-2 piledrivers in the 75). But if you're on the more MWM, midrange-y build of the deck anyway, I think Copter is pretty strong upgrade.

I hope you all enjoyed reading my testing results. I know it's kinda dry and not the most organized, but this is what I have. Please ask me any questions you have about Copter or matches I played! I'll try to remember or find replays if possible.

EDIT: A neat play you can make specifically with Copter that I think is relevant a lot of the time. If you are at the end of your draw step and you know for sure that you will be attacking with Copter, you can port or waste your opponent off of a removal color (typically white for StP). You go to main phase, and either the mana empties or they spend their removal spell on a irrelevant creature. It's a good way of ensuring you get value off the Copter attack. It does require you to have the presence of mind to not go to your main phase though, as you have to crew before declaring attacks.

[kombatkiwi]

EDIT: A neat play you can make specifically with Copter that I think is relevant a lot of the time. If you are at the end of your draw step and you know for sure that you will be attacking with Copter, you can port or waste your opponent off of a removal color (typically white for StP). You go to main phase, and either the mana empties or they spend their removal spell on a irrelevant creature. It's a good way of ensuring you get value off the Copter attack. It does require you to have the presence of mind to not go to your main phase though, as you have to crew before declaring attacks.

While true that you must crew before declaring attacks you can still crew after your mainphase in the Beginning of Combat step, before you declare attacks.

This interaction is often relevant in standard currently because it lets you attack with Cultivator's Caravan by crewing it with Toolcraft Exemplar.

I guess the suggestion is still relevant in the Goblins thread because it's a reasonable way to disable removal on your upcoming haste lords if you have that many lands in play.

[1GoblinLackey]

While true that you must crew before declaring attacks you can still crew after your mainphase in the Beginning of Combat step, before you declare attacks.

This interaction is often relevant in standard currently because it lets you attack with Cultivator's Caravan by crewing it with Toolcraft Exemplar.

I guess the suggestion is still relevant in the Goblins thread because it's a reasonable way to disable removal on your upcoming haste lords if you have that many lands in play.

Ha! Shows me right for not testing with a rules engine. I initially thought I could port on main phase then crew at the beginning of combat, but someone said that I had to do it before. Thanks for the tip.

[Mantis]

Thanks ScatmanX! It's nice to play some games with Goblins again. I kind of gave up on the deck a couple of years ago when Merfolk fell out of favor (having a guaranteed win was lovely) and combo and Stoneblade became popular. At that time, people were still hating on Goblins and packed Engineered Plagues, Blue Elemental Blasts and Pyroclasm type cards in their sideboard. I played a White Stompy brew for a couple of years, when turn 1 Chalice at 1 was enough to get half to field to scoop. However, now that BUG, Miracles and Sneak and Show are the tier 1 decks, I had a string of poor results with my brew. After a detour on Death and Taxes, I am now back on Goblins which feels solid for the moment. Similar to 1GoblinLackey, I am 15-4 in matches on Cockatrice (that's almost 80%!). Although the level of play and decks on Cockatrice is variable and many people use it as a testing platform, I only managed something like 55% match wins with Death and Taxes.

I am skeptical of Smugglers Copter. It has no synergy with any of the Goblins, Aether Vial or Cavern of Souls. It dies to every removal spell and makes us super vulnerable to Ancient Grudge. Although it could be nice to filter a bunch of cards away with a reasonable clock to boot, it suffers from the aforementioned problems and does not fix our true problems which are all forms of combo decks (Infect, Elves, Show and Tell, Reanimator, Manaless Dredge, ANT, TES). However, it has been dominating Standard so it must have some merit. Smugglers Copter does seem extremely sweet in the Zombardement deck.

Anyway, I am switching back to some more Goblin Chieftains and am currently running 3. I traded my Bolts for Mogg Fanatic to increase the strength of Piledriver, Chieftain, Ringleader, Vial and Gempalm Incinerator a little.

Apart from that, I don't know what to say: Goblins looks to be very well positioned currently and it fills me with joy. Swinging past True Name Nemesis with Goblin Piledriver is just so sweet. I would encourage all the Goblin players that have abandoned the deck over the past few years and are struggling to get a competitive edge in the current meta with their present decks, to dust of Goblins again.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

@ScatmanX
I generally agree, I haven't had really any actual issues with it with the exception of my friends Sultai Nic Fit Pod list, but I think there are other factors at work in that match-up.

@griffinpride and mistercakes
I couldn't agree with ScatmanX more. Play a bit with a netdeck, and once you know some rules, you are then allowed to bend them. Before that you won't be sure of the consequences of your testing.

@1goblinlackey
I took the liberty of taking your listed results and compiling it similar to mine. (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1A_-ktleq4Z9p3Isw3vf_IGBYBYnVVG8MKqt_OYeGgII/pubhtml) If you PM me I can give you control of that document directly and you can continue it on your own.

@Mantis
I'm not sure if we ever interacted, but welcome back to the archetype! As I'm sure you were expecting many of us to say, I'm not to keen on the lack of haste affects in the main. Let us know how it plays out. I ran a heavy burn build a while back, about a year now, that had 4 bolts, and 2 fanatics and I found that the deck

[Chatto]

(...)
@Mantis
I'm not sure if we ever interacted, but welcome back to the archetype! As I'm sure you were expecting many of us to say, I'm not to keen on the lack of haste affects in the main. Let us know how it plays out. I ran a heavy burn build a while back, about a year now, that had 4 bolts, and 2 fanatics and I found that the deck

That the deck...? Is what? Say it, man! I'm dying to know :laugh::laugh:

[Mantis]

@Mantis
I'm not sure if we ever interacted, but welcome back to the archetype! As I'm sure you were expecting many of us to say, I'm not to keen on the lack of haste affects in the main. Let us know how it plays out. I ran a heavy burn build a while back, about a year now, that had 4 bolts, and 2 fanatics and I found that the deck
After some testing I did reach the conclusion that I really like 3 or 4 Chieftains and cut the Lightning Bolts to increase the goblin density. Although Fanatic does not have a high powerlevel at all, I like having 3 or 4 given the synergy with the rest of the deck.

[1GoblinLackey]

@1goblinlackey
I took the liberty of taking your listed results and compiling it similar to mine. (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1A_-ktleq4Z9p3Isw3vf_IGBYBYnVVG8MKqt_OYeGgII/pubhtml) If you PM me I can give you control of that document directly and you can continue it on your own.



Hey Olaf, PM'd you. Just posting for visibility.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Hey Olaf, PM'd you. Just posting for visibility.

All right, you should have editing rights now. You can officially jam that link I posted to your signature now.

[slave]

Okay so I've been pretty unhappy with Goblins for ages, so every time I've been taking the deck out I've been testing something.
For next weeks Legacy night I'm thinking about including 3x Panharmonicon. The rest of my list is focussed towards ETB triggers obviously.

Before you all hate on it immediately - yes I know it's too slow to beat combo/storm, but this deck is already there.
Most of the core Goblin cards we play benefit from this perm substantially, so I thought I'd give it a shot.

Anyone else try it?

[GoboLord]

Okay so I've been pretty unhappy with Goblins for ages, so every time I've been taking the deck out I've been testing something.
For next weeks Legacy night I'm thinking about including 3x Panharmonicon. The rest of my list is focussed towards ETB triggers obviously.

Before you all hate on it immediately - yes I know it's too slow to beat combo/storm, but this deck is already there.
Most of the core Goblin cards we play benefit from this perm substantially, so I thought I'd give it a shot.

Anyone else try it?

Didn't try Panharmonicon but I think the card you are looking for is Kiki-Jiki. On top of additional ETB triggers, Kiki-Jiki has potentials to combokill (Piledriver, Lightning Crafter/Skirk Prospector) or lock (Goblin Settler, Tuktuk Scrapper, Stingscourger) your opponent.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

I wanted to note that as well, but GoboLord beat me to it. As it has been mentioned before a card needs to be really, really powerful, AND do something the deck wants done, to justify a spot in the deck if it is not a goblin card. We have a similar effect to this and it's on a 2/2 body. I'd try a heavy Kiki-Jiki build before Panharmicon personally. That said, the whole deck does sound strictly more fun with doubled ETBs.

[jrw1985]

How about instead of running Panharmonicon + Ringleader to get 2 Ringleader triggers you just run 2 Ringleaders. That seems easier.

[slave]

I'm not gonna argue with you fellaz. I agree with your points, but I did consider that before posting.
My win/loss for goblin has been in the red every single time I've taken the deck out to play. Shit, even Burn kills me off quick.
SO I wanna try something.

I know about Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. I've got one in my list, and other ETB gob's like Goblin Settler & Goblin Pyromancer.
I'm not running Piledriver to fit them in.

The point of me *testing* Panharmonicon isn't because it's the best option, it's that I can get it on the field a turn earlier than Kiki, and I don't need the 3 red mana, which is often hard to achieve with the disruption-style manabase.
It's also because by the time you hit 4 lands, you can often drop multiple cards on the table in a turn, exploiting ETB triggers.

[Mantis]

This is the list that I arrived at after some testing.

4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mountain
1 Taiga
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Scalding Tarn
1 or 2 Karakas
2 or 3 Rishadan Port
1 Plateau

4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Chieftain
3 Goblin Piledriver
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Mogg War Marshal

//Sideboard
SB: 4 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 2 Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 Tin Street Hooligan
SB: 1 Karakas

Let me discuss some of the unorthodox choices:
The Fanatics are likely a matter of preference. To me, they are kill spells for small creatures that additionally provide a decent clock together with Pileriver and Chieftain and benefit from all of the Goblin synergies such as Gempalm Incinerators and Ringleaders. Finally, they also work with Goblin Lackey, Cavern of Souls and Vial whereas other spells such as Tarfire or Lightning Bolt do not. They have been good for me, I would suggest giving them a shot.

Thalia is another oddball choice. Basically, I just want to increase my chances against unfair decks such as Sneak and Show, Reanimator and Storm. Karakas is there for the same reason. Perhaps 1 Karakas, 3 Rishadan Port would be better, not quite sure yet.

4 Gempalm Incinerator: I think this card is just sick. I don't understand why you would run less than 4. Although I suppose part of why Gempalm has been good for me is Mogg Fanatic.

Chieftain over Warchief: I suppose I miss out on the Matron into Matron into Piledriver combo, but one Matron less and a Chieftain giving +1/+1 provides only provides one less damage. Chieftain boosts fragile creatures such as Lackey and Fanatic and gives them some purpose in the mid and late game.

The sideboard has been designed to give me a shot vs. the unfair decks of the format:
4 Surgical Extraction: 4 GY hate spells are basically needed to even stand a chance vs. BR Reanimator. Only other option is Faerie Macabre, but I think Surgical is better vs. ANT.

3 REBs pull work against Sneak and Show. Additionally, they are relevant against a broad range of blue decks and also decent against ANT.

2 Chalice: Primarily there for ANT. Also good vs. Miracles and decent vs. Elves and Burn. I would only side in 2 vs. all matchups aside from ANT and that's why I chose to run 2.

2 Thalia: Round out the playset. Very versatile and applicable vs. a wide range of Combo decks.

1 Karakas: Together with 3 REB, 1 Stingscourger (and 4 Matron), the 3 Karakas have to carry the matchup against Sneak and Show. Karakas is also great against Reanimator and RG Lands. Also, the Karakas can just act as a 24th manasource in matchup where your mana gets attacked heavily.

2 Pyrokinesis: Primarily to combat Elves and Death and Taxes. Also applicable against Infect.

1 Tin Street: Is there 100% to answer Death and Taxes. I found that the ways I typically lose to D&T is either through Vial disadvantage or through Sword of Fire and Ice. Tin Street solves both problems and you often need to play Tin Street twice in a game.

Finally, some words on the fetches. I think 4 Scalding Tarn is preferable to any of the other fetches. When you open with Fetch, pass: Scalding Tarn gives the impression you are on UR Delver or Sneak and Show leading to some false assumptions by the opponent. Its a slight advantage over the other fetches. The flipside is that you are theoretically more vulnerable to Pithing Needle if you play the same 4 fetches, however, that has never ever happened to me anyway.

Any thoughts on the list? I have a 72% winrate with this deck on Cockatrice over 40 matches, so it seems to work out decently so far.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

I don't hate it, but I have some thoughts.

Thalia and Piledriver are actually fighting for a similar goal in the maindeck, and that's to race Combo. Thalia is WAY better at racing combo than Piledriver. If I were to run a 3-2 split, I'd run it in favor of Thalia. Commit to it. Perhaps even a 3-1 split in the lass's favor.

Mogg Fanantic plus Gempalm is actually okay, it let's you kill a Stoneforge on turn 2 without sacrificing much. My issue with Fanatic isn't about how good it is in that scenario. It's about how it pairs up as a top-deck or mid-game card. I just find he doesn't do enough other than the scenarios where he is at his near best. To put it bluntly, I'd rather run 4 Tarfire AND 4 Gempalm.

I do think the minimum number of Mogg War Marshal is 2 in non-Winstigator lists. It buys time against Goyf, makes Gempalm hurt more, makes Piledriver swing harder. It pretty much does everything the deck wants to be doing, and it does it at a low opportunity cost.

I like mainboard Karakas, but I'd probably just run Another Stingscourger in the board over Karakas. Similar effect, but can actually do tricky things with Vial.

I, a long time ago, used to run Scalding Tarn as well for that reason. I eventually came to the conclusion that it didn't matter enough. Short of the corner case where someone kills you while you only have a fetch out, they kept their opener in the blind anyway. In the case where it might affect their opening play? The only thing I can think of is that they might Ponder first instead of dropping a Deathrite Shaman or Delver, but I still think that line is probably just incorrect for them anyway. They are giving up valuable momentum for a shot in the dark. Long story short here, I think that the Scalding Tarn "trick" only works on newer Legacy Players or poor legacy players. Now getting free wins isn't a bad thing, go for it. Sometimes they will be off by a mana all game. When I'm playing against better players this "trick" will never even come up. That mixed with the numbers for it just make the event too rare to matter enough. But if you got Scalding Tarns, go for it.

[Mantis]

That are some very good points.

- Going up to 3 Thalia seems very reasonable. I may take your advice on that one.

- I understand your hesitance towards Mogg Fanatic. It is an underwhelming creature for sure. However, it synergizes well with the other components of the deck. I also tested a singleton Grim Lavamancer in the spot of one of the Fanatics and Lavaman did quite a decent job. Tarfire and Bolt are decent in most lists, but in this deck which relies on Thalia and Fanatic is just easier to cast.

- At the moment, I do like having Karakas in the sideboard because it seems good against Death and Taxes and RG Combo lands as well. Stingscourger is much more narrow and only seems to be relevant against Sneak and Show and Reanimator.

- Mogg War Marshal is very good against Eldrazi and is also important to stall Goyf for a bit. 1 is absolutely needed. A second seems optional depending on the expected metagame. Depending on what the meta calls for, I will absolutely consider the second copy.

[Stevestamopz]

Mogg Fanatic is fine but there is a reason we don't run it anymore:

Goblins is 9/10 times forced to sit back and slowly build a wall. If you look at the meta-game when Fanatic was really good it was when the deck was functioning more like an aggro deck with Ringleaders to keep it coming. Now with the format being exempt from caring about most Lackeys, Fanatic confuses the deck's identity/purpose.

I love Fanatic more than anyone, and all the guys here know that. I even tried Ember Hauler in a MODO league once. They are unfortunately just a bit too weak. The last time I played Goblins I even played 4 Fanatic (probably 3 months ago) and they were as underwhelming for me as others have said above. They were however excellent in the Goblin Mirror lol.

If your metagame is 50% fair decks like Pyromancer Delver, Elves and DnT I would absolutely recommend playing maybe 2 Fanatics, definitely not 4 though. I played 2 Fanatics during the DTT days when every deck was basically cantrips + Pyromancer and it was a beating against those decks. I also agree that it is excellent against combo just because it has cmc1 not 48 like the rest of the cards in the deck. The DCI foils (http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MTG/PRM/en/foil/FNM/MoggFanatic.jpg) look fantastic too :wink:

[Railbird]

Mogg Fanatic is fine but there is a reason we don't run it anymore:

Goblins is 9/10 times forced to sit back and slowly build a wall. If you look at the meta-game when Fanatic was really good it was when the deck was functioning more like an aggro deck with Ringleaders to keep it coming. Now with the format being exempt from caring about most Lackeys, Fanatic confuses the deck's identity/purpose.

I love Fanatic more than anyone, and all the guys here know that. I even tried Ember Hauler in a MODO league once. They are unfortunately just a bit too weak. The last time I played Goblins I even played 4 Fanatic (probably 3 months ago) and they were as underwhelming for me as others have said above. They were however excellent in the Goblin Mirror lol.

If your metagame is 50% fair decks like Pyromancer Delver, Elves and DnT I would absolutely recommend playing maybe 2 Fanatics, definitely not 4 though. I played 2 Fanatics during the DTT days when every deck was basically cantrips + Pyromancer and it was a beating against those decks. I also agree that it is excellent against combo just because it has cmc1 not 48 like the rest of the cards in the deck. The DCI foils (http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MTG/PRM/en/foil/FNM/MoggFanatic.jpg) look fantastic too :wink:

We don't run Mogg Fanatic anymore because damage no longer goes on the stack, which was the reason he was so bonkers.

[Sagratho]

how many white lands (including fetchs) i need to use to make rest in peace effective against reanimate?

i'm really sure that's rest in peace is better than relic, cuz i dont need to play with 1 mana open every turn. (and i dont run surgicals on my SB, só rest in peace become better against loam/punishing fire decks).

[Olaf Forkbeard]

11-12 should be enough for relatively consistant T2 RIP. That said RIP is not the best answer for Reanimator. Surgical Extraction, Leyline of the Void, or Faerie Macabre are much better answers. Relic is run as a catch-all that is good in grindy matches as well as having text against other decks. RIP is slow for Legacy's Standards. Additionally, for our deck, Containment Priest is usually better against combo than RIP. Sure RIP stops Goyf and bothers Deathrite Shaman, but Reanimator, Elves, and Show & Tell, and the like are far more scary. I can outgrind a Goyf, but just being dead to improper, or not enough interaction, is far worse.

All of that said I don't know how much grave hate your planning on running at all, I just wanted to make it clear that RIP is not the most efficient anti Reanimator card, and if that is the target try the cheaper options.

[1GoblinLackey]

Additionally, for our deck, Containment Priest is usually better against combo than RIP. Sure RIP stops Goyf and bothers Deathrite Shaman, but Reanimator, Elves, and Show & Tell, and the like are far more scary. I can outgrind a Goyf, but just being dead to improper, or not enough interaction, is far worse.


I'm curious what you think of containment priest in the sideboard. It seems pretty solid against a decent number of decks (Sneak and Show, Elves, Reanimator....mayyybee D&T if you're feeling brave? Shuts off vials for everyone, but it stops flickerwisp + recruiter chains, which is kinda sweet) I'm tempted to try 2 out in the place of Grafdigger's Cage as to have a 2-1 split, giving me a lot of game (in theory) against Reanimator.

Speaking of Reanimator, what is the consensus of what to do about it at this point? Online I have about 4 actual grave hate cards (1 Cage, 1 Relic, 2 Extraction, trying to keep one relic around for other matchups even though it's not very good against reanimator. It has text that matters at least) and 3 Thalia's to slow them down. However, it might be enough of a "fad" deck that dedicating this much (or more) hate is unnecessary? I really hate the idea of being completely cold in a matchup, but perhaps it's not worth hurting the others by using so much sideboard space. To play devil's advocate against myself, those 7 cards all have uses against other decks, so it's not as destructive to the board as something like 4x Leyline of the Void.

All in all, I think 4-5 pieces of actual grave hate is sufficient to have a chance, but other assisting prison cards like Thalia or Chalice are necessary to survive (like usual). Chalice is probably better because they can't collective brutality it away. The games you win against reanimator are when you can extract whatever they go for first, then either hope that they don't have another target, or you can jam Thalia on t2 and overwhelm them before they can stabilize. Doesn't seem like a great plan though.

[Sagratho]

All of that said I don't know how much grave hate your planning on running at all, I just wanted to make it clear that RIP is not the most efficient anti Reanimator card, and if that is the target try the cheaper options.

yeah i know... but the problem is that reanimator match sucks. And all cards that is good against reanimator is crap against another decks.

You may say "surgical is not a crap card". But surgical is not efficient against reliquary or goyf like RiP effect... and i can win more goyfs/reliquary matchs than reanimator match.

[GoboLord]

I'm curious what you think of containment priest in the sideboard. It seems pretty solid against a decent number of decks (Sneak and Show, Elves, Reanimator....mayyybee D&T if you're feeling brave? Shuts off vials for everyone, but it stops flickerwisp + recruiter chains, which is kinda sweet) I'm tempted to try 2 out in the place of Grafdigger's Cage as to have a 2-1 split, giving me a lot of game (in theory) against Reanimator.

Speaking of Reanimator, what is the consensus of what to do about it at this point? Online I have about 4 actual grave hate cards (1 Cage, 1 Relic, 2 Extraction, trying to keep one relic around for other matchups even though it's not very good against reanimator. It has text that matters at least) and 3 Thalia's to slow them down. However, it might be enough of a "fad" deck that dedicating this much (or more) hate is unnecessary? I really hate the idea of being completely cold in a matchup, but perhaps it's not worth hurting the others by using so much sideboard space. To play devil's advocate against myself, those 7 cards all have uses against other decks, so it's not as destructive to the board as something like 4x Leyline of the Void.

All in all, I think 4-5 pieces of actual grave hate is sufficient to have a chance, but other assisting prison cards like Thalia or Chalice are necessary to survive (like usual). Chalice is probably better because they can't collective brutality it away. The games you win against reanimator are when you can extract whatever they go for first, then either hope that they don't have another target, or you can jam Thalia on t2 and overwhelm them before they can stabilize. Doesn't seem like a great plan though.

I think the Reanimator MU is too bad to fix. That was the case with UB Reanimator and RB Reanimator looks even worse for us.
Recently , I included 2 Karakas in my RG list (one Main and one SB) as well as a 2nd Stingscourger in my SB. This has to do with the Rising popularity of SneakShow, but will also work against Lands and Reanimator. Any other hate that works against Reanimator seems to be too narrow.

[Sagratho]

Hello Guys,

I'm losing a lot to decks that run Hymn to tourach... so whats the main gameplan to play against these decks?

Idk how play games with heavy discards spells.

So whats best SB, side in and side outs for classic list.

[kinda]

What is your list and what is running hymn? Matron to ringleader is still your best play but if its pox boarding out high cc threats is good. I'm really not sure what else runs hymn atm...but used to.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Hello Guys,

I'm losing a lot to decks that run Hymn to tourach... so whats the main gameplan to play against these decks?

Idk how play games with heavy discards spells.

So whats best SB, side in and side outs for classic list.

Are you playing against Shardless BUG and BUG Delver?

Hymn to Tourach is one of those deck's best main board spells against us. There isn't much you can do against Hymn specifically other than get your Ringleaders out as soon as possible to keep the hand full. As for the decks themselves Shardless is tougher than BUG Delver as they have some card advantage in Shardless Agent and Ancestral Visions, where as BUG Delver has Ponder's to smooth out their play and keep it aggressive. In both cases Relic or Rest in Peace is good against their goyvs. Krenko is a good tool against both decks, as he makes their ground forces insignificant. Pyrokinesis is much better against BUG Delver than it is against Shardless BUG, as they can't recover as easily. You'll probably only want 2 in anyway due to Hymn to Tourach. Keep it real, rely on Ringleader.

Take Lackey's out on the draw against Deathrite Shaman decks (other than Elves), and cut all but 1 Piledriver on the play. After that it get's rather specific based on your list and we can't do much more to help you without that info.

[RandallBarber]

4 wasteland
4 rishaden port
4 cavern of souls
3 bloodstained mire
2 wooded foothills
1 scalding tarn
3 mountain
1 badlands
1 plateau

4 goblin lackey
4 goblin ringleader
4 goblin matron
4 aether vial
4 goblin warchief
3 goblin piledriver
3 tarfire
3 gempalm incinerator
2 krenko, mob boss
1 earwig squad
1 skirk prospector
1 stingscourger
1 tuktuk scrapper
1 goblin sharpshooter
1 goblin chieftain

3 pyrokinesis
3 thalia, guardian of thraben
2 wear/tear
2 surgical extraction
2 rest in peace
1 tuktuk scrapper
1 pyroblast
1 warren weirding

The pyroblast should definitely be another goblin sharpshooter. Moving forward I would consider trying to find room for a 4th tarfire, and possibly cutting the Stingscourger for a maindeck warren weirding. I don’t think that siege-gang or any other 5 drops are necessary right now, and being able to leave vial on 4 helps with grinding if they wrath/etc. after we tick to 5. 2 Krenko seems like a lot but you really just win maybe 80% of the time you tap him. I don't hate the idea of playing 4 surgical over the rips, but rip is more powerful in the true graveyard-y matchups that aren't reanimator or weird hypercombo.

Round 1: Burn. I am given a game loss for not having my decklist fully written out at the beginning of the round. With the threat of a match loss looming if I didn’t fill it out fully, and my sideboard incomplete, I threw a lot of graveyard hate and a pyroblast in. The graveyard hate is fine, but the pyroblast was very mediocre and I almost always play a second sharpshooter.

Game 1: (post-game loss): opponent is on burn and draws a lot of copies of price of progress. I am able to only play 2 nonbasics, one being a wasteland, and just leave up the wasteland every turn. Eventually he has to start using his burn spells on creatures to not die and I win the race.

Game 2: opponent draws a card for his turn one, on the play. I get to shuffle a card back in and he shows me a hand of 2 ensnaring bridge, 3 Smash to smithereens, 2 searing blaze, mountain. I took the searing blaze, which was foolish because I’m just supposed to take the mountain, and he dies because he boarded in and drew 5 cards that don’t do anything.

1-0

Round 2: UR delver

I don’t remember much of this match other than a forked bolt and a snapcaster forked bolt being a beating. I also made a pretty brutal misplay in game three by using my skirk prospector to sac for mana instead of a different goblin, running right into a daze. I was previously considering just using it to play a 3 drop because I didn’t draw any red mana sources and forgot I could sac other goblins.

1-1

Round 3: Countertop welder

Game 1: I mulligan to 5 and keep 3 wasteland, lackey, ringleader. I scry bottom and one-time a mountain off the top, opponent doesn’t have interaction and I get to turn 2 ringleader and eventually grind him out. He played 4 basics and showed me a goblin welder, so something was amiss.

Game 2: I board in a lot of shatters and draw a bunch of them and removal spells, but he has double-top and three welders and a spellskite which means he draws a million cards a turn and nothing is ever shatter-able. Fortunately he somehow just bricks a bunch and I can krenko him out.

2-1

Round 4: Reanimator
Game 1: I have a pretty quick start with lackey into chieftain into other stuff. He makes a scary thing on turn 2 on the play, which is not enough because I’m a lucksack and drew a stingscourger. He makes a griselbrand on turn three off a reanimate, which puts him low enough that I can attack him and kill my own guy before damge.

Game 2: I keep a thalia-rest in peace hand, he ashen riders my land and I don’t draw out of it.

Game 3: I keep a loose one with hate, then surgically extract his iona in response to a reanimate. We both do not much for a few turns, until he makes a big scary guy. I draw a warren weirding and win while he reassembles.

3-1

Round 5: ID into 7th seed of top 8

3-1-1

Quarter-finals: Miracles
He had somewhere to be and scooped, which is kind of a shame because this is easily my best matchup of the day. Would have preferred my free win elsewhere, but I’ll take it.

Semis with infect: Colin White was my opponent and he is very bad, so my victory was assured.

Game 1: I savagely outplay him by drawing a goblin sharpshooter and 2 tarfires.
Game 2: I draw two copies of pyrokinesis which are quite excellent against infect.


Finals with grixis delver:

Game 1: I am higher seed (7th vs. 8th in the finals) and I play a lackey on turn 1. He doesn’t have a deathrite shaman or a bolt so I win.

Game 2: My opponent blind hit with therapy turn one, then had young pyromancer-git probe-therapy again turn 2, then played brainstorm, therapy, flashback therapy, bolt your guy on turn 3. He has a lot of cards and creatures and I don’t have any of those things. Rip. Also, this game I whiffed on a ringleader, and hit a pyroblast which was supposed to be a sharpshooter, which would have won the game and the tournament. Tilt.

Game 3: I take a mulligan to 6 and keep a hand of 2 vial, 2 cavern, mountain, warchief. This hand is a reasonable favorite to win the game if I draw a matron, ringleader, or running threats and I am pretty sure he is going to be trying to slow down with a lot of interaction, so I keep it because mulling to 5 against grixis is rough. I guessed correctly about the texture of the game because it goes on for a bunch more turns. Unfortunately I draw 2 spells and 6 lands, the 2nd spell being a turn 8 lackey. No trophy, only pain.

Overall kind of pleased with my finish, even though I feel pretty robbed about the finals. The Toronto legacy meta is super weird and full of fair decks, so if you play something good against fair decks with a plan for young pyromancer and reanimator you should be fine, which I feel like goblins is.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Game 1: I savagely outplay him by drawing a goblin sharpshooter and 2 tarfires.

I rather enjoyed that line.

Yea, Sharpshooter is in a weird spot for me personally. It's really, really good, and often really, really slow. You get reaps of reward for waiting, but I have lost a number of games to it just not being fast enough. Mostly Grixis memories to be fair, with a couple being Elves. Your deck looks pretty good for what you ran into.

I too have learned the lesson about deck registration, and was not properly punished for it. R1 in Indi a while back I got a game loss against UR Delver, but I too savagely outplayed him, only with Pyrokinesis for G2 and 3.

Thanks for the report.

[OlegtheSuper]

Haven't played goblins for more then a year and a half.
So played a tournament today.

Pretournament games was:
3-0 miracles(no sb) first game won in 1 life with kiki+karakas.
1-0 D&T

The tournament:
R1. Grixis delver. 2-1
Sb: -4 lackey, -1 tuk, -1 sting, +3 relic, +2 moon, +1 pyro
In game three sbout moons because he saw them in game two with probe.

R2. UBRG shaman, tnn, loam, pushfire, jace, new chandra 2-0
G1 i swarm, g2 he kept onelander after mull to 6 with 2 brainstorms. He hit second land on turn 4 but moon was high.
Sb: -1 sting, -4 lackey, +2 moon, +3 relic

R3. UG infect 2-1
Sb: +3 pyro, -1 tuk, -2 liege
G2 and 3 killed by lackeys and friends

R4 ID with Miracles


List
4 goblin lackey
4 aether vial
3 mogg war marshal
3 goblin piledriver
2 stingscourger
4 gempalm incinerator
4 goblin matron
4 goblin warchief
1 goblin sharpshooter
1 tuktuk scrapper
4 goblin ringleader
2 boartusk liege
2 krenko, mobb boss
1 kiki-jiki, mirror breaker

1 rishadan port
4 wasteland
4 cavern of souls
1 karakas
11 mountains

Sb
3 relic of progenitus
2 pithing needle
4 thorn of amethist
2 blood moon
1 tuktuk scrapper
3 pyrokinesis

[1GoblinLackey]

Hey all!

So today I went to my (first ever!) sanctioned Legacy event! It was a small group, just a pod of 8, with 3 rounds. We'll be picking some more numbers soon though, I know of at least 3 people who have near finished or finished legacy decks who are gonna start showing up. Another shop in the city closed down last week and they were the main place in the area for legacy, so many of those players are going to be migrating.

Regardless, the reason I'm excited is that I managed to take 1st in the event! I've made a somewhat radical change to my deck recently (the impetus of which was my recent acquisition of a Badlands). I'm curious what you all think of my reasoning for my changes, and would like some advice on some small changes I'm considering.

The List!

Artifacts: 6
4 Aether Vial
2 Smuggler's Copter

Creatures: 29
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Ringleader (!)
3 Goblin Warchief
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Piledriver
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Grenzo, Dungeon Warden

Instants: 2
1 Tarfire
1 Pyrokinesis

Lands: 23
4 Wasteland
4 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Rishadan Port
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Badlands
1 Plateau
1 Karakas

Sideboard
3 Thalia
2 Blood Moon
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Wear//Tear
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Warping Wail

The Matches: I didn't take notes so I'm doing this write-up from memory. For the future, I'd be interested in advice on how you guys keep match notes for large events like GPs. Do you jot them down between games? Between rounds?

Sebastian on Grixis Thieves: On the draw
I know Sebastian as primarily a vintage player, but I wasn't really sure what he was on at the start of our game. He joked that he might be on reanimator, and I prepared to be savagely beaten. However, I could breathe a sigh of relief when he leads off with a ponder, and reveals himself to be on a grixis variant (I had first assumed Shardless BUG, then Delver).
Game one was quite a slog, eventually leading to a hardcast pyrokinesis on my end to kill a pyromancer that had accrued some significant value (my ringleader got Cabal Therapy'd)
However, I manage to pull it to a close with a healthy life total thanks to Krenko + Warchief. He also had flashed in a notion thief at some point to stop me from getting value from my Copter triggers.
I believe my boarding was: +2 Blood Moon, +2 Pyro, +1 Warping Wail (for presumed toxic deluge. Also kills all creatures in his deck) -4 Lackey, -1 Stingscourger

Game 2 was a massive grind as well. My ringleaders got therapied twice (once off of a cabal therapy he ripped with the git probe. That felt bad). We were both in top deck mode when he finds a pyromancer, and begins to build up a couple of tokens (which trade off with some of mine). At this point, our life totals are neck and neck (I believe he was on 8 and I on 7). I drop a sharpshooter that has my hopes and dreams pinned on it. He draws izzet staticaster, which makes me immensely sad. I draw ringleader, and manage to get into the board state where I have a ringleader (tapped) and a Krenko. I have a mogg war marshal in hand. He has a staticaster and a lone pyromancer. We are about to enter into turn 4 of turns, as time has been called. At the end of my turn, he cast Chaos Warp (which he had as a fun-of) on my Krenko; I get lucky and flip a chieftain off the top of my deck! He untaps, and swings at my face. I'm at 5 and he is at 4. I kinda punt here because I thought I had to play for the win, rather than the draw (I somehow failed to consider that I was up a game), and so I don't block with the Chieftain. His draw for the turn? Bolt, making me dead. We shake hands on a close match, and I'm at 0-1-0.

?? (terrible with names) on 4 Color-favoring bant/splash black Deathblade: On the draw
I knew he was on some sort of stoneblade variant because I saw him playing earlier. He ponders and I drop a vial off of a port, which thankfully resolves. He surprises me by jamming in a Jitte. I think "well, I'm in trouble now". Fast forward a few turns, I've managed to kill a stoneforge that pulled up a batterskull, and I have a sharpshooter on board. Unfortunately, we reach the state where his board is a batterskull with the germ, jitte (no counters), and DRS. I vial a ringleader, which saves me with a tarfire, a gempalm, and a grenzo. I tarfire + gempalm the germ, allowing sharpshooter to kill the DRS. Grenzo dies soon after. I do now reach the turn that I 100% need to win, because he has TNN about to equip the Jitte. He is at 11 and I'm pretty confident I'm dead, with only a lone Krenko. However, a top decked Warchief changes the math. I go cast Warchief, cast matron getting piledriver, and resolve all. 4 tokens plus a big swing from piledriver kills him on the spot.

Sideboard: +2 Blood Moon, +2 Pyro, +2 Wear//Tear, +1 Cabal Therapy (I liked the idea of snagging equipment tutored by SfM. Not sure if correct because it increases my vulnerability to wasteland. It is possible to cast the therapy off of flashback because I can loot it away with the Copter.

Game 2 was a solid grind, and he has a slow start with only a turn 2 containment priest as initial pressure. I'm disrupted significantly by a daze on my t1 vial, but my hand functions without it thanks to a topdecked land. The situation becomes much scarier when he drops a turn 3 Sword of Fire and Ice. Fortunately, I have the wear//tear in hand. Copter gets on board, and I managed to begin crewing. He lands a stoneforge, grabbing Jitte. The removal was really timely this game because of the reliability in killing stoneforge before it untaps. When he eventually puts the Jitte in play, he also casts a Jace and brainstorms (this was very late game, so we both have 8-9 lands, and I have a vial again). He has 1 card in hand, and I vial in tuktuk to blow up Jitte, and sail a Copter over a DRS to kill jace. My opponent does significantly misplay at this point, as they try to swords to plowshares the tuktuk in response to the crewing, thinking it would stop Copter from becoming a creature.
Aside; I feel bad for saying no to a rewind because he didn't know how crewing works, but the game was close enough that I felt like I had to hold onto the misplay. Perhaps it's kinda a dick move (after all, it's just a small low-stakes event), but he said I had the choice and I said no. Maybe it shouldn't, but I feel bothered enough by my decision to mention it here.

Anyway! Krenko eventually spells the end for him, and Copter plus a couple of 1/1s takes the match.

Gabriel on....ENCHANTRESS (oh god why): on the draw
This was the match I was dreading, and I was sure I was screwed. We both keep our 7s, mine on the back of a vial, double port, and a bunch of goblins including Krenko. I figured that the best way to win this match is through mana denial, and I was right. My vial starts to tick up, and I go ports into a wasteland. He gets stuck on mana for a bit this way, as he can't spam enchantments as hard, and only has 1 enchantress effect going. However, a Elephant Grass makes my life difficult, a leyline of sanctity makes a sharpshooter win impossible. However, this game teaches me the magic of Skirk Prospector + Krenko equaling approximately a million mana. With only an elephant grass as an attack tax, I manage to swing with some tokens and a massive 11 power piledriver for the win. Going into game 2, I know that this is my only path to victory.

Board: +2 Wear//Tear, +2 Blood Moon (mostly for Serra's Sanctum), +2 Cabal Therapy, +3 Thalia, +1 Mindbreak (if he chains off a ton of enchantments, I might be able to nail his win condition, be it RIP+Helm, Doomwake Giant, Emrakul, or Sigil of the Empty Throne
Out: -2 Mogg War Marshal, -1 Stingscourger, -3 Gempalm,-1 Pyro, -1 Tarfire, -1 Sharpshooter, (should have left this in, assuming he boards out Leyline of Sanctity as he did), -1 Grenzo (can't attack through Elephant Grass)

Game two is somewhat uneventful, in that I draw little and die easily. Not much to say much about this one. I do gain the info that he wins via angel tokens and Doomwake giant, which valuable.
I swap out a war marshal for a gempalm, as it gives me a way to kill Doomwake.

Game 3: Now this was a truly ridiculous mess. I have a solid hand of Thalia and lands to cast her, a vial, a cabal therapy, and some gobs. I run into a bit of a conundrum here, as I have the option of turn 1 fetch for therapy. However, I only have 1 fetch in hand. I opt to cast the vial first, and fetch plateau. I figure that landing Thalia ASAP is more valuable than a blind therapy. I get slightly punished by not drawing another fetch for quite awhile, but I think I made the right choice.
My opponent here has a very strange draw. He lands many many utopia sprawl effects, and I have little way to stop him because I only draw a single port as land disruption (over the course of the whole game). My turn 2 thalia does prompt him to journey to nowhere thalia. At the end of his turn 2, I vial in lackey, which connects along with a warchief, dropping a krenko into play. On his turn 3, he drops even more utopia sprawls and a mirri's guile. At this point, all I want to see is a wear//tear to free my thalia and some wastelands. Neither come to me. I get one big swing for 6 in, but not much else to do. Soon after, he drops a sphere of safety with 6 enchantments in play, leaving me little hope at this point. Krenko continues to pump out tokens. Each turn, I cannot do much other than make another set of tokens and port down the most heavily enchanted land, trying to cut as much mana as possible. However, I do get lucky here in a way. My opponent cannot seem to find any pieces of the draw engine, and it playing off the top 3 cards of his deck. A doomwake giant eventually comes down, and wipes all the 1/1s, leaving krenko to start up the horde again. I figure I will lose on the next turn, as I draw nothing but lands and he just needs 2 doomwake triggers to wipe board of anything but the krenko. However, he bricks as well, giving me a shot! I peel a matron, which puts me in the tank for a bit. I really want to grab prospector to start being able to attack, but with Doomwake and mirri's guile in play, I'd have to be extraordinarily lucky to have him miss another turn on an enchantment, and I cannot win if Prospector dies. So I matron for the singleton gempalm that I thankfully had put back in the deck, and kill the giant, which (because I gotta be lucky sometimes) draws me into Prospector! Score! I do the math, and I still don't have enough to attack profitably. I pass. He fetches, and then StP my Krenko! Noooo! Impending doom encroaches on my mind at this point.

I have about 14 goblin tokens, a warchief, a matron, and a prospector and cabal therapy in hand. I play prospector (probably incorrect) and pass to port. Curiously, after he resolves the Guile trigger, he simply draws and passes. I think "what could he possibly have that he wouldn't or couldn't cast?" After evaluating his mana, I come the conclusion that it has to be either Sigil, Emrakul, or another Doomwake. I draw a tuktuk, and cast therapy. A leyline of the void is in play, so I don't get a second chance. I take a guess of Sigil of the Empty Throne...and my opponent looks at me in disbelief as he reveals the sigil. We and the group around us cannot help but laugh with the ridiculousness of it. There are a few more turns of little happening, but at last I find my second krenko. I do some math, and with him at 6, I find I have lethal. I sac 28 of my 36 goblin tokens to pay for an attack of warchief, tuktuk, matron, and a token. My opponent scoops his cards and shakes the hand, and I put my hands in my face in disbelief. I've never seen a skirk prospector do more work in my life!

The Goblins tribe is victorious! It was a small event, but beating enchantress felt like no easy feat. I dodged BR reanimator like a champ too :laugh:

Some analysis & oddities about the decklist: I know I'm killing some sacred cows by playing only 3 ringleaders, but I believe it's okay for a couple reasons. My main goal in building the deck this way was reducing the curve and overall clunkiness of the deck, and that meant cutting a 4 drop. Somewhat inspired by suicidesteve on the Legacy Goblins FB page saying on someone else's post about Smuggler's Copter that cutting a Ringleader could be correct, and I went looking for ways to compensate. Grenzo has been described as kind of "5th ringleader" before, and I took that somewhat literally. Between the 2 Copters and the Grenzo, I think that my list's grinding capabilities are not too adversely affected by shaving the ringleader (Which still has exactly 30 hits). It's just much easier to cast grenzo in a game without vial than ringleader, and I was sick of having hands that did nothing until turn 3. More two drops is a necessity for the deck. I also liked that I can reset my grenzo with my own karakas, so casting it early as a 2/2 is just fine. A niche synergy, but a synergy nonetheless. Cabal therapy was a last minute addition in the sideboard, but I liked the interaction with Copter, and wanted some additional game against some of the combo decks around, as well as stoneforge decks.

A change I want to make for the future: Earwig Squad. I'm definitely gonna try to find a place for it in the maindeck, I'm just not sure what to take out. Advice?
As far as my sideboard goes, I'm pretty happy with it. I'd love to play a second cage over the extraction but I don't have one and no one around me has one for trade. Same deal with mindbreak. Not sure what to replace for mindbreak x2 though.

On manabases: I had the option of playing the 4th port over the karakas or the 4th mountain. I decided against it because 1. I like being able to cast my spells, and 2. The wear side of wear//tear is very relevant in my meta so having extra white mana is quite handy. Also a lot of people dumping griselbrands into play, so that seems invaluable. Perhaps the 4th mountain is unnecessary; I'll defer to more experienced players in this matter. Also, there's the eyesore of only 3 Cavern of Souls, but I'm waiting for MM 2017 to reprint them.

That's just about all I have to say about my event! I had a fantastic first time here in legacy land, and was really happy to put a notch of Goblins' belt for once. Opened some decent prize packs (ballista, aethersworn harvester, and a fatal push all deece), and the deck felt more functional than all of my previous builds. Hope this was an enjoyable read!

[kinda]

Good work on your first legacy tournament! I think you wil learn to love ringleader. To be fair goblins stopped being my main legacy deck in 2012, but I still believe ringleader is the the best card in the deck. He is wonderful in all of the long grindy matchups. I also agree with your earwig squad addition proposal. A copter, a war marshal, scrapper, prospector are cut/board options to make room. With so many x/1's around I would run 2 sharpshooter or sgc before prospector.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Good job both of you!

@Oleg:


The Matches: I didn't take notes so I'm doing this write-up from memory. For the future, I'd be interested in advice on how you guys keep match notes for large events like GPs. Do you jot them down between games? Between rounds?

Here is a couple of pictures of my notes from one of the Louisville Side Events. (http://i.imgur.com/5Hxbytq.jpg) The front side is detailed notes mentioning life loss and how life was lost, non mentioned items are combat damage. F is fetch, DR+ or DR- is Deathrite Shaman, Bob is bob, etc. On the bottom of the page when I'm boarding, if I have time, I flip the bottom of the page up and write what I'm boarding down. For the picture I just flipped the paper over, but usually it's just the bottom 1.5 inches dog eared over while I board. This way I can hide my notes from my opponent while boarding. Just out of view is my life total on the left. Camera cut out, sorry. Additionally next to the player who goes first on their Life Total I write P if they are the play. An M for each mulligan, and T or B if they topped or bottomed their scry. If memory serves he was actually on Storm and I simply forgot to write it down after game 1.

Also, you have a lot of high CMC cards, is your meta super fair right now? It seems to be the common trend out and about. I'm thinking of running another finisher goblin again because of so.

@1GoblinLackey
So there are two common builds of enchantress and they overlap quite a bit. The easiest way to think of it is how controlling a build is. We are much better against the Helm as fast as possible builds and much worse against the Elephant Grass is the best builds. In both cases I've found Rishadan Port and Thalia to be my most powerful cards in the match with, as you saw, Prospector pulling a lot of weight. In all cases feels good winning a poor match. Also, playing well with Cabal Therapy actually makes you feel like the Wizard WoTC wants you to pretend to be.

Earwig Squad is great, but the only reasonable cuts I'm seeing is a Krenko, or a Grenzo.

You are on a multicolored build that actually intends to use it's side colors often, you simply can't afford the 4th basic. Make it a fetch or a dual. Plus your curve ends at 4. In games where you can afford to play around Wasteland are the games where you cast Ring on turn 4. At that point who cares if they waste your 4th land.

[1GoblinLackey]

Good job both of you!

@1GoblinLackey
So there are two common builds of enchantress and they overlap quite a bit. The easiest way to think of it is how controlling a build is. We are much better against the Helm as fast as possible builds and much worse against the Elephant Grass is the best builds. In both cases I've found Rishadan Port and Thalia to be my most powerful cards in the match with, as you saw, Prospector pulling a lot of weight. In all cases feels good winning a poor match. Also, playing well with Cabal Therapy actually makes you feel like the Wizard WoTC wants you to pretend to be.

Earwig Squad is great, but the only reasonable cuts I'm seeing is a Krenko, or a Grenzo.

You are on a multicolored build that actually intends to use it's side colors often, you simply can't afford the 4th basic. Make it a fetch or a dual. Plus your curve ends at 4. In games where you can afford to play around Wasteland are the games where you cast Ring on turn 4. At that point who cares if they waste your 4th land.

Thank Olaf!

Unfortunately, the guy playing enchantress is on the latter version of the deck that you mentioned. Multiple elephant grass, sphere of safety, and worst of all, solitary confinement. His win conditions are the Helm + RIP combo, Doomwake Giant, and Sigil of the Empty Throne. I'm not sure how many of each he's playing though.
I definitely agree with you on Cabal Therapy! It makes me wish Gitaxian Probe didn't exist, just because it takes all the elegance out of the design of Therapy.

I think that if I do end up making that cut, I'd cut the Grenzo. I wasn't super impressed by him for his ability other than for being able to be a big dude that is somewhat demanding of attention. That being said, he's a hard card to evaluate with a small sample size of use, as he is fairly variance heavy.

Playing a 7th fetch seems smart. I'm guessing leaving in the 4th mountain over the 4th port is still correct at the moment just because red mana is hard to come by sometimes, but that's more of an intuition than any sort of hard knowledge about manabase math. I'll have to consult my local Frank Karsten-ite.

[GoboLord]

Hello fellow Warchiefs,

quick tournament report.

The list:

LANDS (23)
4 Caverns of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
1 Karakas
2 Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Taiga
5 R-Fetches

CORE (16)
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader

Rest of the bunch (21)
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Krenko, Mob Boss
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Sylvan Library

SIDEBOARD (15)
3 Blood Moon
3 Pithing Needle
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Stingscourger
1 Karakas

Round 1: [play] Miracles (2-0)
-2 Pyrokinesis, -1 Gempalm Incinerator, -1 Skirk Prospector , -1 Stingscourger,-1 Krenko
+3 Pithing Needle, +2 SGC, +1 TSH

Round 2: [draw] Bomberman (2-1)
-1 Skirk Prospector, -2 Krenko, -1 MWM
+3 Needle, +1 SGC

Round 3: [play] Reanimator (2-0)
-3 Gempalm, - 2 Kinesis, - 1 MWM , -1 Tin-Street Hooligan
+3 Blood Moon , +2 SGC, + 1 Stingscourger, + 1 Karakas

Round 4: [play] OmniSneakShow (1-2)
-3 Gempalm, -2 Kinesis, -1 MWM, -1 TSH
+3 Pithing Needle, +1 Siege-Gang Commander, +1 Stingscourger, + 1 Karakas

Round 5: [play] Wr Death & Taxes (2-1)
-4 Goblin Lackey, -1 Stingscourger, -1 Krenko, Mob Boss
+3 Pithing Needle, +1 Pyrokinesis, +1 TSH, +1 Siege-Gang Commander

Top 4: [draw] OmniSneakShow (1-1)
same as above (Round 4)

THOUGHTS:
* the light changes on the list since my last event were a nod in the direction of SneakShow, Reanimator and Lands.
MD: -1 Pendelhaven, +1 Karakas
SB: -2 Tuktuk the Explorer, -1 Dismember, +1 Stingscourger, + 1 Karakas, +1 Tin Street Hooligan

* the dual nature of Sneak- and Omni- Show decks is really annoying and makes it somewhere between hard and impossible for me to prepare the SB correctly. This is one of the MU where the lack Piledrivers carries weight.

* Sylvan Library keeps being awsome. I changed my SB plans since my last event in a way that Library stays in the deck after G1 in almost every MU (i.e. I used to board it out a lot more often ) and this turns out to be the correct thing to do. As a rule of thumb I board out Library whenever my own life total are actually in danger through spells or lots of easive attackers (Burn, Grixis, Storm). By default I want to spend 12 life to library over the course of the game.

Questions are - as always - welcome.

Cheers!

- GL

[mistercakes]

Can you go into more detail on the 2-0 vs reanimator?

[Damaku]

It was me on reanimator and I got tyrannosaurus wrecked.

G1 I got a Inkwell out of Study and Reanimate. I think I got you to 3 and then you overran me.

G2 I had Entomb Reanimate ready but the Sire and gravetitan on hand. I took Iona on red and it saw the karakas. Then the game was over when matron got the bounce boy. Sadly I did not see any sb pieces. I got in Decay, S&t, Echoing

Verry fun games! the speed and versability took me by suprise. Other gobo lists are usualy an auto win for me.

[Chatto]

Nice run, Gobolord! Questions:

- How were the three Krenko's?
- Carpet of Flowers? You didn't board them in, do you consider them your flexspot?
- Will you try to find a spot for Piledriver (or two? Three?)

[GoboLord]

It was me on reanimator and I got tyrannosaurus wrecked.

G1 I got a Inkwell out of Study and Reanimate. I think I got you to 3 and then you overran me.

G2 I had Entomb Reanimate ready but the Sire and gravetitan on hand. I took Iona on red and it saw the karakas. Then the game was over when matron got the bounce boy. Sadly I did not see any sb pieces. I got in Decay, S&t, Echoing

Verry fun games! the speed and versability took me by suprise. Other gobo lists are usualy an auto win for me.

Some more details from my memory:

G1:
I go first with Mountain and no T1 play. He goes Fetchland, Go.
On my turn 2 I play Mogg War Marshal and pass. He double-fetch, Study for Inkwell Leviathan + X, then Reanimate for Inkwell dropping to 9 life.
On my turn 3 I draw and cast Lackey and pass. He attacks me for 7 and I drop to 13.
On my turn 4 I attack with 2 tokens + Lackey, connect into Matron finding Warchief (had Krenko in my hand at that point). He attacks me for 7 and I drop to 6 life.
On my turn 5 I cast Warchief, attack with Lackey + Warchief, drop Krenko off the Lackey trigger and pass. He gets Blazing Archon into his graveyard somehow, casts exhume, I get my MWM back. He attacks with Inkwell, I tap Krenko for 7 token and block. Repeat next turn, bounce Archin with Stingscourger and attack.

G2:
Can't add much to what happened in G2. Iona vs. karakas and Stingscourger + Vial @ 2 vs. Sire of Insanity (if it entered the battlefield, which it didn't). That's pretty much it.

Although this game went extremely well for me, I think you just drew the wrong half of your deck while I drew the right half of mine. I don't think that my deck can repeat this kind of performance on a regular basis. Quoting myself two weeks ago here:


I think the Reanimator MU is too bad to fix. That was the case with UB Reanimator and RB Reanimator looks even worse for us.
Recently , I included 2 Karakas in my RG list (one Main and one SB) as well as a 2nd Stingscourger in my SB. This has to do with the Rising popularity of SneakShow, but will also work against Lands and Reanimator. Any other hate that works against Reanimator seems to be too narrow.



Nice run, Gobolord! Questions:

- How were the three Krenko's?
- Carpet of Flowers? You didn't board them in, do you consider them your flexspot?
- Will you try to find a spot for Piledriver (or two? Three?)

- 3 Krenkos are awsome
- Carpets come in vs. Tempo/Delver MUs (and maybe some other random ones I forgot). Every SB is flexible to some degree, but I find that Delver decks have a big-enough meta-share for me to dedicate 3 slots to them permanently.
- I think the MD is perfect the way it is considering the current metagame and how I would like to approach it. Adding Piledrivers is just a different approach and - some rare cornercases aside - I think it has to be 4 or 0 Piledrivers in the maindeck. So, no, I'm not looking to make room for Piledriver.

[Dan Pyre]

I wanted to wait to post this until I had the videos, so we're finally here!

Last week I took 2nd at a local 34 player event Legacy event. They recorded a match a round everyone event and I ended up on camera the Semifinal and Finals matches. Ignore my stupid plays, I literally had not slept the night before D:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLz3wPlR5b8Ya8lWikES3lyO-0O5Yust6o

Here was my quick tournament report from the Facebook page:

Lands (24)
4 Mountain
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Taiga
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Pendelhaven

Artifacts (4)
4 Aether Vial

Instants (3)
2 Tarfire
1 Pyrokinesis

Creatures (29)
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Mogg War Marshal
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker (!)
1 Lightning Crafter (!)
1 Skirk Prospector (!)

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pithing Needle
2 Blood Moon
1 Stingscouger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Goblin Settler
1 Pyrokinesis

Okay so it looks like a gigantic pile and I eschewed the white splash I initially had after scoping the room at the outset of the event - tons of quick reanimator, at least 2 Oops decks, lands, and some Dredge. I panic swapped to Leylines and it did pay off.

Round 1: BUG Delver (2-0)
Game 1: Krenko
Game 2: Blood Moon

Round 2: Lands (2-0)
Game 1: Opponent dumps hand onto board by turn 2 with 2x Exploration, however has no P Fire, Loam, or Glacial Chasm to stop Lackey connect into Krenko.
Game 2: I draw my sideboard cards mostly on time (Blood Moon, Needles, Relic)

Round 3: Lands (2-1)
Game 1: I get Marit Lage'd easy peasy.
Game 2: Sideboard cards
Game 3: Lucky Tin Street Hooligan blaps his Mox Diamond and his only green source to cut him off Loaming.

Round 4: Sneak and Show (0-2)
Game 1 and 2: My opponent knows me well enough to not attempt Show and Tell (I always have the Scourger/Matron) and opts to Sneak around me. I don't find enough pressure before then to matter. Mulligan aggressively!

Round 5: Splinter Twin (2-1)
Game 1: I beat a Batterskull and Jitte equipped to a Deceiver Exarch by managing to land Krenko + Goblin Sharpshooter for the blocks into kill my blocker route to prevent counters and lifegain. Krenko races for the win.
Game 2: I drop my opponent to 3 with double Tin Streets but then the Batterskull comes down. I draw lands as if my life depended on it.
Game 3: My opponent draws hot garbage while I unlock Kiki + Ringleader. Literally 1 Goblin in the top 16. I would have lost this game if not for Keeks. Eventually we get there.

Round 6: Death and Taxes (2-1)
Game 1: Equipment dumpstered.
Game 2: Sharpshooter unlocked with Gempalm on Revoker (I believe) and wipe his board)
Game 3: Staring down Mom, Thalia, Flickerwisp and Revoker with Sharpshooter on board (Revoker'd). Cast Lightning Crafter champion a Matron. Dodge STP, wipe his board.

Quarterfinals: Dredge (2-1)
Game 1: lol
Game 2: Leyline of the Void + Relic
Game 3: Leyline of the Void + 2 Relics

Semifinals: Shardless BUG (video for this one) (2-1)
Game 1: Keep super greedy 1 land Lackey with Krenko, Warchief, Keeks and Ringleader in hand. Gets Forced.
Game 2: I play super loose as I'm losing my focus but am able to grind to 2 life and unlock Lightning Crafter combo staring down 2 huge Goyfs.
Game 3: Mid game Keeks turns Matrons into tutor factories. My opponent can't find an answer.

Finals: Elves (video for this too) (1-2)
Game 1: Nut draw featuring Krenko and Pyrokinesis and Skirk Prospector doing dumb shit.
Game 2: Keep a bad hand and get combo'd
Game 3: Keep a good hand and get NO'd when I play Lightning Crafter instead of cycling Gempalm.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Against Shardless

It would be against Shardless wouldn't it. You had plenty of opportunities for EOT tricks with Kiki in G2 and 3. I think the comb itself is a bit greedy, but it worked on camera, so who cares. It mostly would have translated to extra blockers. I really like Crafter in that match-up though, just as is.

Against Elves
The camera works, we can totally hear you.

[OlegtheSuper]

@Olaf
Looking your "Goblins Data" please teache me how to beat Eldrazi like 16-0

[Olaf Forkbeard]

@Olaf
Looking your "Goblins Data" please teache me how to beat Eldrazi like 16-0

Whoever wins is going to win by a lopsided margin. Either they didn't get to be their deck at all, or they really got to be their deck. The most important cards in the match-up, in order, from your end, are: Wasteland, Rishadan Port, Aether Vial, and Pyrokinesis. Their most important cards are Thoughtknot Seer, Umezawa's Jitte, Reality Smasher, and Endbringer. Just make their mana go away and peck at them. If you are slightly ahead on board, port and waste aggressively. AEther Vial helps in this regard. Past that the critical thing to do in the match is to deal with Thoughtknot Seer. That's where Pyrokinesis comes in. It doesn't matter what's in your hand so long as they don't have a 4/4. Everything below it on the curve you can handle with creatures. The things above that on the curve shouldn't be resolving OR should take so long to resolve you can handle it with Gempalm. If you can handle the first Thoughtknot Seer then you have probably bought enough tempo to win the match. Our end game is better overall, but their midgame is super strong. Just get'em or leave them stranded earlier in the game.

I shouldn't have won this often. Even in Indy and Louisville I was still running into opponents who were boarding improperly, leaving in their Chalice's because they have no idea how our deck works. Another man told me he had practice in the match-up and that he always dies to Sharpshooter, a card I board out. I would imagine the Match is closer to 60-70%. It's pretty positive, but those numbers I have pulled do feel pretty good.

[1GoblinLackey]

Hey everyone,

I just have some niche card questions for the squad here:

What are people's feeling about Kolaghan's Command in the side? It would take the spot of a shatter effect like ancient grudge or wear//tear. Obviously, you have to be black to cast it, but the value it could create seems too much to ignore. I imagine it improving the matchups of Shardless, D&T (albeit a bit hard to resolve perhaps), some delver variants (though probably only when you're on the play so Daze isn't really an issue), Infect (given the same conditions; shattering an inkmoth while shocking something else seems strong. Perhaps too expensive though?), and the stoneblade variants. Now, obviously it's a fair-matchup-only type card, which we can only run so many of in the sideboard. But blowing up a jitte while getting back a ringleader seems utterly backbreaking against a lot of decks. It's very possible that it's just not efficient enough for legacy, but I'd like to know if anyone has tried it.

Meekstone: Am I crazy, or does this seem great against a lot of creature decks? Obviously it has a big abrupt decay target painted on its head, but it does give us the ability to answer a true name, which we basically can't do otherwise. Also keeps delvers, anglers, and goyfs from untapping, which can be quite strong. It is a non-bo with Krenko of course, but maybe that isn't too big a deal? It also seems like a straight up win against Eldrazi; I dunno how they can possibly win with a meekstone in play. I also am amused by the prospect of bringing it in against BR reanimator and getting them stuck with a permanently tapped Sire of Insanity. Probably not good enough, but if I had it in the matchup I'd bring it in nonetheless.
This idea only came to me after playing against it in Limited when someone got it as a masterpiece. I'd never seen the card before and my mind immediately wanted to try it out. It's quite an old card though, so I imagine it's been tried before.

Also, I was wondering if there is any other source (pun unintended) of matchup breakdowns? While the primer here is pretty extensive as far as covering the Tier 1/1.5 decks (thanks again to Olaf), I'd like to see if there's similar data or evaluation for more uncommon decks like Alluren (which I tested against with a friend and can't seem to beat without lucking out with a pyro), Deathblade decks, Canadian Threshold, Nic Fit, BG Depths, Maverick, you get the idea. Legacy is such a wide-open format I often wonder what to do against a lot of the decks you can run into.

Thanks!

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Hey everyone,

I just have some niche card questions for the squad here:

What are people's feeling about Kolaghan's Command in the side? It would take the spot of a shatter effect like ancient grudge or wear//tear. Obviously, you have to be black to cast it, but the value it could create seems too much to ignore. I imagine it improving the matchups of Shardless, D&T (albeit a bit hard to resolve perhaps), some delver variants (though probably only when you're on the play so Daze isn't really an issue), Infect (given the same conditions; shattering an inkmoth while shocking something else seems strong. Perhaps too expensive though?), and the stoneblade variants. Now, obviously it's a fair-matchup-only type card, which we can only run so many of in the sideboard. But blowing up a jitte while getting back a ringleader seems utterly backbreaking against a lot of decks. It's very possible that it's just not efficient enough for legacy, but I'd like to know if anyone has tried it.

Meekstone: Am I crazy, or does this seem great against a lot of creature decks? Obviously it has a big abrupt decay target painted on its head, but it does give us the ability to answer a true name, which we basically can't do otherwise. Also keeps delvers, anglers, and goyfs from untapping, which can be quite strong. It is a non-bo with Krenko of course, but maybe that isn't too big a deal? It also seems like a straight up win against Eldrazi; I dunno how they can possibly win with a meekstone in play. I also am amused by the prospect of bringing it in against BR reanimator and getting them stuck with a permanently tapped Sire of Insanity. Probably not good enough, but if I had it in the matchup I'd bring it in nonetheless.
This idea only came to me after playing against it in Limited when someone got it as a masterpiece. I'd never seen the card before and my mind immediately wanted to try it out. It's quite an old card though, so I imagine it's been tried before.

Also, I was wondering if there is any other source (pun unintended) of matchup breakdowns? While the primer here is pretty extensive as far as covering the Tier 1/1.5 decks (thanks again to Olaf), I'd like to see if there's similar data or evaluation for more uncommon decks like Alluren (which I tested against with a friend and can't seem to beat without lucking out with a pyro), Deathblade decks, Canadian Threshold, Nic Fit, BG Depths, Maverick, you get the idea. Legacy is such a wide-open format I often wonder what to do against a lot of the decks you can run into.

Thanks!

Ironically the match-up where I'd want Kolaghan's Command the most is the match-up it'd be the hardest to cast: Death & Taxes. That's deterred me from running it personally. Equipment are rather time sensitive, or you are dead.

I actually was knocking around the idea of running 2 Meekstones in my board a few months back, I had simply forgotten about it and never did any testing. I'll hop on that and let you guys know.

As for match-up analysis I haven't found anything better than this primer, and that's because I Gobolord started it with his own Experience and I added onto it.

On the lists you mentioned:

Alluren - Unknown Difficulty - Not enough experience to confirm or deny information on the match. We get to do funny things with that card out, but you are right Pyrokinesis is really important here.

UW and Esper Deathblade - Even and Poor respectively - UW is basically dealing with 3 separate problems:

Canadian Threshold - Even - Pyrokinesis rocks this match-up. If you have surgical, surgical their Trop and they can't play green threats anymore. Good players will leave in stifle. Guard your mana and overwhelm them, as they don't have ANY card advantage. New builds with a couple of True-Name Nemesis will obviously be a bit harder near the end game, but there isn't much you can do other than be mentally prepared for it. If they are boarding them in, their deck is inherently slower and that has it's value in the early game.

Nic Fit - Poor, but a blast - The deck of 100 variants. Abzan is worse than Jund, is worse than Sultai, is worse than Golgari. Not to mention packages like Pod or GSZ choice. I have actual experience against GSZ Abzan and Sultai Pod, with minimal experience against Jund and Golgari. In all cases I tend to board out ALL of my 1 drops in favor of anything bigger.

BG Depths - Poor - This match is probably quite poor, but I wanted more testing before I determined why. So far I've only been wrecked by it, but then again I've only played against it a total of 4 or 5 times ever, in my entire career.

Maverick - Good - This match is about the mana dorks, equipment, and Knight of the Old Republ-err, Knight of the Reliquary. Getting rid of their dorks is pretty important as they want to leverage bigger spells on average, but you get to play that oh so fun game of save a kill spell for Stoneforge. I generally play against this deck like I do D&T but it's easier as I can wipe their less relevant dorks mid and late game with a couple of things, including combat. Eventually a Knight will land. At this point Stingscourger or a large enough board just get's 'em. Ringleader all the way.

[1GoblinLackey]

Hey there Warchiefs,

I took down our weekly legacy event for the second time today, with significantly harder matchups this time. I'm definitely getting some benefits for being on an unknown deck, as at least one of my opponents had never played against Goblins before. I'm not gonna write out a long play by play like last time (unless people want me to, please let me know), so here's the basic rundown.

Round 1: 2-1 Storm (draw)
Details: Game 1 I get cabal therapied on turn 1 after a probe, taking my 6 card hand of x3 matron, vial, cavern, and lackey to basically nothing. I wait to confirm that he's on storm, then concede. Game 2, a timely Thalia leaves my opponent just a mana short of tendrilsing me to death. Game 3, a Rest in Peace has a similar effect, and I have a very aggressive hand. He does tendrils me down to 1 and goes to 27, but a decently sized board including chieftain and warchief lets me matron for piledriver and swing for exactly 27. Whew!

Round 2: 2-0 Death and Taxes (play)
Details: My opponent here had no idea what I was on, and was definitely scared by my turn 1 mountain, pass (expecting burn). I kept a fairly weak 7, 5 lands, a ringleader, and tuktuk. I knew that he was on D&T though, and assumed that mana heavy hands that have a shatter are strong. He has a slow start and turn 4 ringleader actually pulls it together. Pyrokinesis also makes an appearance, wiping the board. Game 2 I have a much stronger hand with multiple pyros. Gempalm mother of runes and pyroing in response to it saving something is completely backbreaking. Tutkuk cleans up the Sword of Fire and Ice, and I manage to keep the board clear for long enough to avoid a jitte from building up any more than 2 counters. I also hit an insane ringleader of double gempalm + matron, which basically spelled game over.

Round 3: 2-1 Burn (draw)
Details: Not too much to say about the first 2 games; I die quickly game 1, and pull together a good win with a very aggressive draw in game 2 (vial, double lackey, tarfire, plus guys to put in, you get the picture). Game 3 was extremely close, and once again a timely Thalia saved me. Playing around price of progress is a difficult dance, but I managed to keep an untapped wasteland for my port on most turns. With both of us on 5 life and him on 3 lands, he untaps and flame rift's us both down to 1, and shows me a hand of 2 more 1 mana burn spells. Goblins triumph once again!

The List: I eschewed the black splash because Grenzo wasn't carrying his weight on his own, and I didn't want to damage my manabase just for Cabal Therapy. There's also a decent amount of Nic Fit around, and I liked having 4 basics to get out against them. It makes the matchup much easier when you get to use all the mana pulled up by veteran explorer. However, once I get earwig squads I might go back to the Black and White splash. I'm not entirely sure though, as I really like having all 4 ports.

Lootin Scootin Goblin Gang:
4 Vial
2 Copter
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Warchief
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Piledriver
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

1 Tarfire
1 Pyrokinesis

4 Wasteland
4 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Rishadan Port
2 Wooded Foothills

1 Plateau
1 Karakas

Sideboard
3 Thalia
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Blood Moon
2 Wear//Tear
1 RIP
1 Warping Wail
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Mindbreak Trap

I've also finally found someone who was willing to trade a Grafdigger's Cage, so I can add a second one of them (probably replacing RIP).

Any feedback is welcome!

[OlegtheSuper]

@Olaf, thank you for all

[Sandro95]

Lootin Scootin Goblin Gang:
4 Vial
2 Copter
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Warchief
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Piledriver
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

1 Tarfire
1 Pyrokinesis

4 Wasteland
4 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Rishadan Port
2 Wooded Foothills

1 Plateau
1 Karakas

Sideboard
3 Thalia
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Blood Moon
2 Wear//Tear
1 RIP
1 Warping Wail
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Mindbreak Trap

Any feedback is welcome!

First of all, congratulations!
I like your maindeck, although I would like to see one or two more Tarfires in there.
The sideboard I'm less keen on. There are so few matchups where I actively want four copies of Pyrokinesis that I don't think the fourth one is worth it. I also never found Warping Wail to be that impressive.
The one Mindbreak Trap I think is fine if you expect a lot of Storm, as it can help you buy time on the draw, and they often won't play around it. It does seem to me however that your build is quite weak to Sneak and Show. My suggestion would be to add a Needle or two to the sideboard, as they are also excellent against Miracles and Lands.
Regarding the graveyard hate I feel like Rest in Peace is too slow if you're looking to beat the Black Red Reanimator lists, especially since it requires white mana as early as turn two. Grafdigger's Cage as you mentioned is better here, but does nothing vs Lands or Tarmogoyf decks. Surgical Extraction is even faster than Cage, and has utility against Lands as well, although it is not as much of a win the game on the spot card as cage cam be against Reanimator. Relic is just solid all around, but a bit on the slow side. In my opinion it comes down to what metagame you're expecting.

[1GoblinLackey]

First of all, congratulations!
I like your maindeck, although I would like to see one or two more Tarfires in there.
The sideboard I'm less keen on. There are so few matchups where I actively want four copies of Pyrokinesis that I don't think the fourth one is worth it. I also never found Warping Wail to be that impressive.
The one Mindbreak Trap I think is fine if you expect a lot of Storm, as it can help you buy time on the draw, and they often won't play around it. It does seem to me however that your build is quite weak to Sneak and Show. My suggestion would be to add a Needle or two to the sideboard, as they are also excellent against Miracles and Lands.
Regarding the graveyard hate I feel like Rest in Peace is too slow if you're looking to beat the Black Red Reanimator lists, especially since it requires white mana as early as turn two. Grafdigger's Cage as you mentioned is better here, but does nothing vs Lands or Tarmogoyf decks. Surgical Extraction is even faster than Cage, and has utility against Lands as well, although it is not as much of a win the game on the spot card as cage cam be against Reanimator. Relic is just solid all around, but a bit on the slow side. In my opinion it comes down to what metagame you're expecting.

A second tarfire is definitely on the short list of cards I want to try to figure out how to squeeze in.

As for the side: Adding the forth Pyro was definitely a last minute choice. Looking around the room (I got there a bit early) I thought there was a significant amount of D&T and Elves, so I swapped out the pithing needle for it. Going forward, I'd probably go back to the needle, though I think I'm probably gonna get back on the black splash for earwig squad and cabal therapy. Warping Wail has impressed me in a couple of matches, and I like it for its versatility. Countering an ancestral vision or toxic deluge that a Shardless player was very sure of resolving is a fantastic, and it also does significant work in the combo matchups by hitting Show and Tell, Infernal Tutor, Reanimate, and Exhume. I also kinda like it against D&T because it exiles most creatures in their deck without Mother of Runes being able to protect it (though you usually just exile the Mom). That being said, it is probably worse than Cabal Therapy, which is also versatile (though I would definitely appreciate some advice on what fair matchups to bring it in against. I like the sound of it against D&T and other stoneforge decks because you can nap the equipment, but not sure what else it's good against, other than straight up combo decks)
The Mindbreak is a hedge against Storm and Belcher, which I just really want to have some kind of out to.
My leaning on Grafdigger's Cage for grave hate was definitely informed by the fact that there are 2 BR reanimator decks around, and very few to no Goyfs. I have a friend who is almost done with Lands, so I'll have to deal with that. Elves is also somewhat prevalent, and stopping NO and Green Sun Zenith is quite strong. If Goyf decks start showing up, I'll probably go a 2-1-1 split of Cage, Relic, and Extraction. What I'm currently trying to fit is 2 Cabal Therapies. The "finalized" board would probably look like this;

2 Pyro
2 Blood Moon
3 Thalia
2 Wear//Tear
2 Cage
1 Surgical
1 Mindbreak Trap
2 Cabal Therapy

[kinda]

Why do people run prospector? Outside of the extremely rare combo with sharpshooter it seems low value compared to other options like tarfire or another fatty goblin or something.

[Sandro95]

Why do people run prospector? Outside of the extremely rare combo with sharpshooter it seems low value compared to other options like tarfire or another fatty goblin or something.

I started writing about Skirk Prospector a while back, since I think it's one of the most misunderstood/underrated cards in the deck.
The text is not finished, but this is what I've got so far. :)

Skirk Prospector

Skirk Prospector is also one of the most flexible cards in the deck. This inconspicuous little goblin adds a lot of utility to the deck, and serves many important functions. It is also one of the most misunderstood and underrated cards in Magic. Today I aim to fix that.
Before we proceed further I want to make sure everyone is onboard with what the card does, so here is its text in full:

“Skirk Prospector [R]

Creature - Goblin

Sacrifice a Goblin: Add [R] to your mana pool.

1/1”

Essentially, Skirk Prospector plays three different roles; a Goblin creature, a sacrifice outlet, and a mana producer.

A Goblin Creature

Being a 1/1, its stats are not particularly impressive. In a synergistic deck such as Goblins however, synergy is often more important than raw power. Below are a list of things you can do (aside from regular attacking and blocking) with a 1/1 Goblin creature.

Increase the goblin count for Gempalm Incinerator.
Buff an attacking Goblin Piledriver.
Enable Prowl for Earwig Squad.

A Sacrifice Outlet


The ability to sacrifice creatures is renowned Magic player Sam Black’s favorite mechanic for a reason. In this deck, as well as in Legacy in general, it can be a very powerful tool - if you know how to use it.
Sacrifice an attacking or blocking creature, thereby preventing an opposing creature from dealing combat damage. This is one of your most important tools against decks with Umezawa’s Jitte, Griselbrand, or Batterskull etc. and mastering it will go a long way towards improving these matchups.
Untap Goblin Sharpshooter. The ability to combo people with Skirk Prospector + Goblin Sharpshooters is very powerful. It can kill people out of nowhere, and serves as an important out to cards like Moat, Ensnaring Bridge, and Glacial Chasm (they often have to sacrifice it and then Loam it back).
Sacrifice a Mogg War Marshal on your opponent’s end step in order for both tokens to be free of summoning sickness on your turn.
Get rid of opposing copies of Bridge from Below.
Get a creature in the graveyard for symmetrical reanimation effects such as Exhume or Living End.
Decrease your goblin/creature count for when you want to use Goblin Sparksmith, the third mode on Rakdos Charm, or in the mirror when your opponent has a Gempalm Incinerator of their own for one of your larger creatures.
Prevent your creatures from being put on the bottom of your library with a Terminus in order to make a follow-up Grenzo, Dungeon Warden hit the card you need that was already there.
Prevent your creatures from being exiled by Swords to Plowshares to play around Wasteland Strangler.

[kinda]

Good post! I'm still not sure if I'm sold but I'm starting to warm up to blood pet :smile: .

[crowe_1]

^
To add to the post on Prospector:
- If you have one or more Warchiefs in play you can instantly turn Matron or Ringleader into any 1R Goblin in your deck, with Haste. A surprise Piledriver is the first thing that comes to mind, but in general Prospector plus Warchief allows many otherwise impossible tempo plays. If nothing else, Prospector naturally ramps into Warchief on turn two to set up a potential turn three kill.
- Prospector plus Siege-Gang Commander reads "Sacrifice three Goblins: deal 2 damage". Add Sharpshooter to replace the 2 with a 5.
- Prospector plus Krenko gives you an insane amount of red mana to cast all the Goblins you want, sometimes instantly setting up a perfect board if you're lucky enough to run hot off Ringleaders.
- Much less impressive than Krenko, but you can sac Kiki-Jiki tokens for mana after they've served their purposes.
- It's a one-drop in a deck that has a high curve, and provides extra mana to feed that curve in a pinch.

Prospector opens up a lot of versatility for the deck, even as a one of.

[1GoblinLackey]

Hey guys, I just wanted to report an interesting tidbit of testing I've found,

You know that RB Reanimator deck that's so scary? I've just tested about 8 postboard games with a friend of mine, and didn't drop a single one (though I definitely got lucky in one of them with a topdecked karakas to bounce a Iona naming red on the last possible turn). Granted, I have a sideboard set up to beat Reanimator, as I boarded in 10 cards, but most of it isn't especially narrow and all have purposes in other matchups. The deck is inconsistent, and has a sort of "beggars can't be choosers" attitude in terms of what they put into play. Frequently, you just have to race a 5/6 flier or a 6/4 on the ground, which too difficult.
*Disclaimer: He wasn't boarding, but even if he was, I don't think it would have changed that much. A couple of abrupt decays aren't that scary simply because it's very easy to stop them from casting it with wasteland and port, and their deck is already extremely mana light. The only especially powerful sideboard card they have is collective brutality, which admittedly is a beating a lot of situations.

I boarded like this;
+3 Thalia, +2 Wear//Tear (the weakest hate, but blows up animate dead and potentially sided sneak attacks), +2 Grafdigger's Cage (the most narrow hate, but still good against a decent number of decks), +1 Warping Wail, +1 Surgical Extraction, +1 Mindbreak Trap (the only card that really stops their nut draw). I should have boarded a pithing needle in too to name griselbrand, probably removing one of the Wear//Tears.

-3 Ringleader -2 Gempalm -1 Tarfire, -1 Pyrokinesis, -1 Copter (leaving one in just to block a flier, or get an extra turn through Iona) -1 Sharpshooter, -1 Matron (unsure about this, but she's usually too slow)

In short, the deck isn't nearly as terrible for us as I had been imagining. I will say that Stingscourger isn't as good as it normally is against "dump stupid creature into play.dek", simply because they will either unmask/thoughtseize it, or it'll get discarded to Sire of Insanity before you cast it (though getting it in the graveyard is nice, since it essentially turns off Exhume). You never will get time to get a vial to 2 unless you're already winning. I wish I had room for a second one in the 75 just to have as an out once the 1st one gets taken or killed, but I think Karakas pulls that weight even better.

EDIT: I've also just tested 15-20 games against a friend of mine online. We did most of it against RB Reanimator, but at least 6 with the UB version as well. In both cases, it felt like a little bit of a crap shoot. Karakas is phenomenal against both versions, though slightly better against UB because they are more Griselbrand focused. The general consensus we came to was that the matchups are fairly even in the aggregate, with the slightly easier matchup being UB because of the fact you can steal game 1 (which I did do). Against RB, it was fairly 50/50. Either he went nuts on turn 1 or 2 and I didn't have hate soon enough, or the game drags out because of Thalia and you can usually win from there. Unlike UB reanimator, if you stop the reanimator player from going off once, it's very unlikely he can do it again. The deck's filtering is quite bad, and will draw numerous dead cards before it can do anything again. Also, value wasteland somewhat highly, especially to destroy bayou. If the bayou is gone, it is exceedingly unlikely that they will be able to deal with a hate piece like Thalia or Grafdigger's Cage. Also an important thing to remember is to not get Stingscourger too early against RB. I think it's usually correct to hold onto a matron for it because it will otherwise get unmasked/thoughtseized, at which point it becomes much harder to win. Of course, you often don't have that luxury, but definitely be aware of the danger of just holding onto it while it's their turn. Wait for the fatty to come into play, then grab it.

[Sandro95]

I played in the finals of our local legacy league yesterday. There were sixteen players qualified for the tournament, and we played five rounds of swiss + a top 8.
I ended up going 3-1-1 in the swiss portion of the event, and then losing in the quarter finals.

I will be doing a short tournament report, but what I want to focus on here today is the process of preparing for such an unusual event.
There being only sixteen players, and everyone knowing who those sixteen players are going to be makes for some interesting metagame decisions.
What follows is a recollection of my preparations for the event. Going into the tournament, I had a pretty good idea of which decks most of the other players tend to play.
Below is a list of the decks I expected people to play if they were to play the same deck that they normally do, rather than try to play the metagame. One might call this their 'level zero' deck.
(Some of you have already seen this list, and might notice it looks slightly different. That has to do with one player not being able to attend, and the passdown that occurred as a result).

Miracles (Legend)
Miracles (Legend)
Miracles (Mentor)
Death & Taxes
Death & Taxes
Grixis Delver
BUG Control
Four Color Control
Esper Mentor (UBWg)
MUD
Stoneblade
Eldrazi
Junk
Maverick*
Tezzeret*

*Not Maverick per se, but some Green Sun's Zenith based deck with lots of juicy targets for it and probably KotR.
*Could be any artifact deck; Helm Combo, Thopter + Sword etc. You get the picture.

I knew I wanted to at least have a plan for all of these decks, while maintaining a sideboard versatile enough to adapt to other decks as well.
I started by noting patterns among these decks; cards and strategies that were overrepresented and/or absent.
I asked some friends for their input as well, and got some good ideas. Originally I had a list of key cards and the number of decks I expected to include them,
for brevity's sake however I've narrowed the list down quite a bit. This is what I came up with:


No combo decks.
No Tarmogoyf decks.
A lot of Stoneforge Mystics/equipments.


The third observation was the clearest and most important in my opinion, and it prompted me to move a Tuktuk Scrapper back into the maindeck.
This is a change I was already considering anyways, since the addition of Smuggler's Copter allows me to loot the Scrapper away in matchups where it's not as good.

I began tinkering with my sideboard, making sure I hade a plan for each matchup, and enough cards to side in or out in each of them.
I'm already very happy with my Miracles matchup, but decided on having at least one Needle in the sideboard, in part because of how versatile it is, and it being a strong card against Death & Taxes as well.
I wanted the standard two copies of Pyrokinesis to help fight against Death and Taxes, Maverick, Grixis Delver, and Eldrazi.
I knew the second Tuktuk Scrapper in the sideboard would be a very good choice in the SFM matchups, so that got a slot as well.
Blood Moon has been a solid staple in my sideboard for quite a while now, and it's good against Eldrazi, Four Color Control, MUD, and Esper Mentor.
I really like the sideboard plan of bringing in Pyrokinesis + Chalice of the Void against Grixis Delver, and so I added two copies of Chalice to my sideboard.
Relic of Progenitus helps combat Knight of the Reliquary, and is also just a very versatile card. I put two copies in the board.

This left me with five more slots. At this point I felt that I had enough cards to bring in in most of the expected matchups.
I did want the third Chalice against Grixis however, and I liked the idea of Needle #2 in a metagame with that much Miracles and Death and Taxes.


I still needed a plan for the BUG Control matchup and the Four Color Control matchup, but other than that I was mostly satisfied.
I had limited experience with both of these matchups. I thought my BUG Control matchup was pretty good, and that the best plan would be to try to grind them out.
With regards to the Four Color Control deck I noticed that the mana base was a weak point of the deck, and figured that attacking it would be a good strategy.
Blood Moon already does a pretty good job here, especially in combination with removal for their Deathrite Shamans.
I decided on adding three copies of Rishadan Port to my maindeck to help improve the matchup, as I noticed Port would be good against many of the other decks as well.
I added two copies of Siege-Gang Commander to my sideboard to help me in the grindy games versus midrange and control decks.
I had no idea what the fifteenth sideboard slot should be, but decided last minute on a singleton Sudden Demise to further help improve my Death and Taxes matchup.

I ended up playing the following list.

R/b Goblin

CREATURES (27)
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Skirk Prospector
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Earwig Squad
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Gempalm Incinerator

SORCERIES (1)
1 Warren Weirding

INSTANTS (3)
3 Tarfire

ARTIFACTS (6)
4 Aether Vial
2 Smuggler’s Copter

LANDS (23)
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Badlands
4 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills

SIDEBOARD (15)
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Blood Moon
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Pithing Needle
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Sudden Demise


R1 Five Color GSZ 2-0
This was the 'Maverick' player.
G1: We played a tight game one where I ended up victorious after some back and fort grinding. At one point I managed to answer his Izzet Staticaster, and then when we were both low on resources I topdecked Krenko to acompany my Warchief.
G2: In the second game he took a mulligan to five and I had a Blood Moon.

R2 Mono Red Painter 0-2
This was the BUG Control player. I put him on BUG because he has been brewing a lot with it lately, but I also knew he was very proficient with many different decks, among them Painter.
G1: He has a fast draw and I die.
G2: He plays and activates Painter + Grindstone, but I have Pyrokinesis in response. He plays Painter #2 and I Tuktuk Scrapper it. When his Imperial Recruiter finds a third painter I'm out of answers.

R3 Four Color Control 2-0
This was the 4C Control player.
G1: Game one is quite grindy. He has a maindeck Marsh Casualties that he wipes my board with (kicked), but I'm able to outgrind him.
G2: He takes some damage early on, in part due to a Painful Truths. I hold a Smuggler's Copter in hand in order to play around Kolaghan's Command, electing instead to keep playing Matrons and Ringleaders and what not.
He lands a TNN, but my team of goblins is able to finish him off.

R4 Death & Taxes 2-0
G1: He plows my Lackey and play SFM for Jitte. Unfortunately for him however he no longer has a Swords to Plowshares for my Sharpshooter, and he keeps drawing one toughness creatures.
G2: He keeps a six card hand with Karakas as the only land, but with two Mother of Runes and a SFM among his other cards.
I keep a slow hand with Sudden Demise but no actual red sources.
He plays Mom > Mom > SFM.
I draw the red source needed to cast Sudden Demise, as well as a Needle top stop both of his moms.
I win from there.

R5 ID

Top 8
Ad Nauseam Tendrils 0-2
G1: I keep a greedy hand with Lackey and some mana denial but nothing to put into play off of Lackey. I get lucky and draw back to back Ringleaders, but it's too slow. In retrospect I think I should have mulliganed for EWS instead.
G2: I keep a six card hand with two lands, two CotV, a Matron and a Ringleader.
I play T1 CotV > T2 CotV > T3 Matron for EWS, but am blown out by Hurkyl's Recall.

Overall happy with my preparations as well as my plays, apart from the questionable keep game one against Storm.
Preparing for this tournament was a very interesting process for me, and I hope that by writing this I'm able to share some of these ideas with you.

Questions and feedback are, as always, welcome and appreciated.

Cheers!

/Sandro

[Ganfar]

I ended up playing the following list.

R/b Goblin

CREATURES (27)
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Skirk Prospector
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Earwig Squad
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Gempalm Incinerator

SORCERIES (1)
1 Warren Weirding

INSTANTS (3)
3 Tarfire

ARTIFACTS (6)
4 Aether Vial
2 Smuggler’s Copter

LANDS (23)
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Badlands
4 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills

SIDEBOARD (15)
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Blood Moon
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Pithing Needle
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Sudden Demise



Hi, Sandro. I think you got me as the Junk Player. :)

How do you feel about 2 Smuggler’s Copter? I think 2 is the right nummber to play with if you want to play it in Legacy. Has it done anything good for you?

[1GoblinLackey]

I played in the finals of our local legacy league yesterday. There were sixteen players qualified for the tournament, and we played five rounds of swiss + a top 8.
I ended up going 3-1-1 in the swiss portion of the event, and then losing in the quarter finals.

I will be doing a short tournament report, but what I want to focus on here today is the process of preparing for such an unusual event.
There being only sixteen players, and everyone knowing who those sixteen players are going to be makes for some interesting metagame decisions.
What follows is a recollection of my preparations for the event. Going into the tournament, I had a pretty good idea of which decks most of the other players tend to play.
Below is a list of the decks I expected people to play if they were to play the same deck that they normally do, rather than try to play the metagame. One might call this their 'level zero' deck.
(Some of you have already seen this list, and might notice it looks slightly different. That has to do with one player not being able to attend, and the passdown that occurred as a result).

Miracles (Legend)
Miracles (Legend)
Miracles (Mentor)
Death & Taxes
Death & Taxes
Grixis Delver
BUG Control
Four Color Control
Esper Mentor (UBWg)
MUD
Stoneblade
Eldrazi
Junk
Maverick*
Tezzeret*

*Not Maverick per se, but some Green Sun's Zenith based deck with lots of juicy targets for it and probably KotR.
*Could be any artifact deck; Helm Combo, Thopter + Sword etc. You get the picture.

I knew I wanted to at least have a plan for all of these decks, while maintaining a sideboard versatile enough to adapt to other decks as well.
I started by noting patterns among these decks; cards and strategies that were overrepresented and/or absent.
I asked some friends for their input as well, and got some good ideas. Originally I had a list of key cards and the number of decks I expected to include them,
for brevity's sake however I've narrowed the list down quite a bit. This is what I came up with:


No combo decks.
No Tarmogoyf decks.
A lot of Stoneforge Mystics/equipments.


The third observation was the clearest and most important in my opinion, and it prompted me to move a Tuktuk Scrapper back into the maindeck.
This is a change I was already considering anyways, since the addition of Smuggler's Copter allows me to loot the Scrapper away in matchups where it's not as good.

I began tinkering with my sideboard, making sure I hade a plan for each matchup, and enough cards to side in or out in each of them.
I'm already very happy with my Miracles matchup, but decided on having at least one Needle in the sideboard, in part because of how versatile it is, and it being a strong card against Death & Taxes as well.
I wanted the standard two copies of Pyrokinesis to help fight against Death and Taxes, Maverick, Grixis Delver, and Eldrazi.
I knew the second Tuktuk Scrapper in the sideboard would be a very good choice in the SFM matchups, so that got a slot as well.
Blood Moon has been a solid staple in my sideboard for quite a while now, and it's good against Eldrazi, Four Color Control, MUD, and Esper Mentor.
I really like the sideboard plan of bringing in Pyrokinesis + Chalice of the Void against Grixis Delver, and so I added two copies of Chalice to my sideboard.
Relic of Progenitus helps combat Knight of the Reliquary, and is also just a very versatile card. I put two copies in the board.

This left me with five more slots. At this point I felt that I had enough cards to bring in in most of the expected matchups.
I did want the third Chalice against Grixis however, and I liked the idea of Needle #2 in a metagame with that much Miracles and Death and Taxes.


I still needed a plan for the BUG Control matchup and the Four Color Control matchup, but other than that I was mostly satisfied.
I had limited experience with both of these matchups. I thought my BUG Control matchup was pretty good, and that the best plan would be to try to grind them out.
With regards to the Four Color Control deck I noticed that the mana base was a weak point of the deck, and figured that attacking it would be a good strategy.
Blood Moon already does a pretty good job here, especially in combination with removal for their Deathrite Shamans.
I decided on adding three copies of Rishadan Port to my maindeck to help improve the matchup, as I noticed Port would be good against many of the other decks as well.
I added two copies of Siege-Gang Commander to my sideboard to help me in the grindy games versus midrange and control decks.
I had no idea what the fifteenth sideboard slot should be, but decided last minute on a singleton Sudden Demise to further help improve my Death and Taxes matchup.

I ended up playing the following list.

R/b Goblin

CREATURES (27)
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Skirk Prospector
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Earwig Squad
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Gempalm Incinerator

SORCERIES (1)
1 Warren Weirding

INSTANTS (3)
3 Tarfire

ARTIFACTS (6)
4 Aether Vial
2 Smuggler’s Copter

LANDS (23)
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Badlands
4 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills

SIDEBOARD (15)
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Blood Moon
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Pithing Needle
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Sudden Demise



Overall happy with my preparations as well as my plays, apart from the questionable keep game one against Storm.
Preparing for this tournament was a very interesting process for me, and I hope that by writing this I'm able to share some of these ideas with you.

Questions and feedback are, as always, welcome and appreciated.

Cheers!

/Sandro

Hey Sandro! Congrats on the solid run, and I'm especially happy to see someone else trying out Copter. Any feedback you can give us on that front? You mention holding on to it in one game, but not much else.

Some thoughts on the maindeck; I like avoiding piledriver here, as your meta looks super bad for him. However, it seems to me that you're lacking enough finishers in the maindeck with only the single Krenko. I would have been inclined to put one of those Siege-Gangs into the main deck and swap with the Warren Weirding, which seems a little...weird (heheh). I normally see WW as a way to kill giant creatures out of Reanimator or Sneak and Show. What made you include it in your main deck?
With this extra sideboard slot (assuming you'd remove WW) I'd add a 3rd Pyrokinesis. It's just so strong against D&T, Delver, Eldrazi, and Mentor (I'd imagine). I can see how double sharpshooter makes you not need it as badly though.

Your mana puzzles me a little bit, as 3 badlands seems quite excessive and overly vulnerable to wasteland. You only have 2 black cards in the 75, and EWS can be cast off of cavern of souls. I'd definitely want to increase the mountain count. On the flip side, if you wanted to utilize the black splash more (as the manabase seems to indicate), I'd suggest Cabal Therapy in the sideboard. It lets you deal with cards you might have trouble with otherwise (and can effectively "shatter" an equipment before it comes down). T1 Therapy into T2 War Marshal, flashback Therapy rips apart a lot of hands. To fit it, you might be able to shave the Relics. Since there aren't any Goyf decks, I don't see relic doing too much other than making DRS and Snaps marginally worse.

[Sandro95]

Hi, Sandro. I think you got me as the Junk Player. :)

How do you feel about 2 Smuggler’s Copter? I think 2 is the right nummber to play with if you want to play it in Legacy. Has it done anything good for you?

I have only been running it for a couple of weeks, so I do not have a definite answer yet. Despite not getting to use it much this tournament however my general impression of the card is quite positive. I really like the fact that it's a twodrop, and one that impacts the board at that. It seems like a good way to break a board stall, by attacking for three every turn. Having an actual way to block fliers is also quite helpful against Marit Lage, Serra Avenger, and Delver of Secrets, all of which can be quite scary otherwise.

[Sandro95]

Hey Sandro! Congrats on the solid run, and I'm especially happy to see someone else trying out Copter. Any feedback you can give us on that front? You mention holding on to it in one game, but not much else.

Some thoughts on the maindeck; I like avoiding piledriver here, as your meta looks super bad for him. However, it seems to me that you're lacking enough finishers in the maindeck with only the single Krenko. I would have been inclined to put one of those Siege-Gangs into the main deck and swap with the Warren Weirding, which seems a little...weird (heheh). I normally see WW as a way to kill giant creatures out of Reanimator or Sneak and Show. What made you include it in your main deck?
With this extra sideboard slot (assuming you'd remove WW) I'd add a 3rd Pyrokinesis. It's just so strong against D&T, Delver, Eldrazi, and Mentor (I'd imagine). I can see how double sharpshooter makes you not need it as badly though.

Your mana puzzles me a little bit, as 3 badlands seems quite excessive and overly vulnerable to wasteland. You only have 2 black cards in the 75, and EWS can be cast off of cavern of souls. I'd definitely want to increase the mountain count. On the flip side, if you wanted to utilize the black splash more (as the manabase seems to indicate), I'd suggest Cabal Therapy in the sideboard. It lets you deal with cards you might have trouble with otherwise (and can effectively "shatter" an equipment before it comes down). T1 Therapy into T2 War Marshal, flashback Therapy rips apart a lot of hands. To fit it, you might be able to shave the Relics. Since there aren't any Goyf decks, I don't see relic doing too much other than making DRS and Snaps marginally worse.

Regarding Copter, check out my post above this one. :)

A lack of finishers hasn't been a problem for me. If you can deal with their creatures a couple of 1/1s and 2/2s on your side of the board should be able to get you there most of the time, and Sharpshooter is very good at clearing an opposing board. It's true that I have only been running this list for a few weeks now, and my old list had two more earwig squad as finishers as well as the second prospector to further enable sharpshooter combo. So maybe with time I will find I need more finishers, but as of right now I don't believe that to be the case.

Warren Weirding is the sixth removal spell and an out to TNN, Marit Lage etc.

I usually play three copies of therapy in the sideboard as you suggested I should, but made a metagame call here not to play it. The three copies of badlands is in part a leftover from my usual mana base, but I think I like it here as well. Seven fetchable lands feels like a reasonable number, and I don't want to go lower on black sources, especially if I am to play therapy, for which you often need the black mana on turn one. Having three copies also protects against wasteland a little bit since it makes it difficult for them to waste you off of a color. Although to be fair that is not as important with only one WW.
I don't think I need more than four basics, as I can cast all of my (red) spells off of four lands anyway, except for SGC, which is a sideboard card and one that is not there for wasteland decks. I chose to cut a fetchland for the third port (rather than cutting a badlands that is) in part because I wanted to make their Deathrite Shaman worse, something I felt would be important if my plan was going to be to attack their mana.

The third pyrokinesis was on my shortlist of cards for the fifteenth sideboard slot. As I didn't have access to it I elected to try out Sudden Demise instead.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Hello everyone.

So a bit back 1GoblinLackey had mentioned using Meekstone as a way to answer larger creatures. Having tried it against Reanimator, Show & Tell, Eldrazi, and Shardless (I was hoping), I can confirm that it's pretty meek. It is at it's most powerful against Eldrazi, an already positive match-up. Reanimator cared about the card, but they cared as much as they do about all of our relevant interaction (so it's a more narrow card with a similar effect). Show & Tell just kind of hit me anyway. And Shardless cares WAY more about Rest in Peace, unsurprisingly. That's the result of initial testing, which is enough to deter me to try more.

I did do one game against Esper Stoneblade with it, and it was once again, narrow. I held back a True-Name, but equipment can be put on anything with legs. It's also hilariously bad in the face of a Batterskull.

It's playable, and has niche uses, but overall it's pretty weak. I will be keeping it in the back of my mind as a SB card for some more narrow metas.

[OlegtheSuper]

@Sandro gratz! Looks like you ended up swiss 3-2 not 3-1-1

[Sandro95]

@Sandro gratz! Looks like you ended up swiss 3-2 not 3-1-1


Thanks!

Where do you see the 3-2 result btw?

[OlegtheSuper]

Thanks!

Where do you see the 3-2 result btw?

Sorry:(

[OlegtheSuper]

@GoboLord, how do you feel with no relics in meta with lands decks, reanims and goyfs?

In the past 3 relics was a no brain decision and now i see for 2 to 0. Please explain me why? I see a lot or reanims, still some storms and goyfs in BUGs or i mistake

[GoboLord]

I think Relics dont help to beat reanimator, because the matchup is just too bad to fix.
That leaves me Lands and "goyf-decks". For lands I already have enough SB cards that are more effective (Moon, Needle, Stingscourger, Karakas).
Against Goyf decks my plan is to grind my way through with my 4 Mogg War Marshal and eventually take the game with Krenko. In fact my problems in those MUs are unbloclable damage (Delver. TNN, DRS) or Goyf + boardsweep. Relic certainly helps with the latter , and I thought about including it in the SB again, but that affects other SB choices as well. So far I havnt found another SB configuration that I liked , except the one that I posted last time.

So tl;dr
Relic might be a good choice right now, but not in my list.

[jrw1985]

Quick Question:

Should I add Sharpshooter as card #61 to the maindeck today?

I put my deck and sideboard together and was pretty happy, but then Sharpshooter was sitting there on my desk, already sleeved up, looking so dejected...

[Chatto]

Quick Question:

Should I add Sharpshooter as card #61 to the maindeck today?

I put my deck and sideboard together and was pretty happy, but then Sharpshooter was sitting there on my desk, already sleeved up, looking so dejected...

My gut-feeling says yes, but truth to be told: I have Sharpshooter in my sb for a long time. What's your build right now?

[kinda]

I think you need a good reason not to run sharpshooter. But if your meta has no bug delver or dnt or elves maybe?

[Cringe]

Throwing together gobos again and wondering if going red white is good? I know Thalia are nice but does anyone have a build to work with? I don't really like losing out of cards in mono red since the splash of green doesn't take too much from the deck

[1GoblinLackey]

Throwing together gobos again and wondering if going red white is good? I know Thalia are nice but does anyone have a build to work with? I don't really like losing out of cards in mono red since the splash of green doesn't take too much from the deck

The reasons to go Red/White over mono-Red nowadays (besides Thalia, which you can replace with chalice) are (for my money): The Tear side of Wear//Tear, Containment Priest, and RIP, though Relic is probably better in most situations for our purposes.

I find having access to a way to blow up enchantments to be pretty premium (though it might just be my meta, admittedly). Its most common target is probably Sneak Attack, though I find myself blowing up Pernicious Deeds out of NicFit, Moat out of miracles, Aluren, Sulfuric Vortex/Eidolon of the Great Revel, Explorations and Manabonds out of Lands...the list goes on! It also gives outs to some of the niche but occasionally played hate cards that are normally crippling, like Chill or Engineered Plague.

Also, I think it's pretty nice to have something to do with the Karakas that I find is phenomenal in the format right now. It's fantastic against all the "dump giant monster into play.dec" archetypes of Reanimator and S&S, while also having extra game against a large portion of the fair decks, which all seem to be in love with Leovold right now. Bouncing Thalia can be pretty nice against D&T too, keeping their equip options a little more limited is always good, and the 2/1 first striker can be really annoying.

Anyone else have solid reasons for the white splash? I've often wondered if those of us on the white splash should consider siding Path to Exile or StP (though I'm sure it's been tried before and decided against).

[Cringe]

Thank you for the input! I don't know much about white in the format. I just finished play testing 12-post and the ability to vile in new Thalia in response to Show and Tell so that if they aren't playing Emrakul it bosses them around for a turn. I only have the Thalia main board as of now. I'll be working on the sideboard tomorrow. I'll post to get more opinions and what not. Saturday's is legacy testing at a local shop so I'll show results then. I went 0-4 with nyxfit due to a rough meta there :(

[jrw1985]

My gut-feeling says yes, but truth to be told: I have Sharpshooter in my sb for a long time. What's your build right now?

I went 0-2 drop today. Fortunately there is another tourney in about 12 hours I'll be going to. My draws just didn't help me out today. I mulled to 6 on 4 out of the 5 games I played. Here's the list I wound up running...

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
2 Warchief
2 Chieftain
3 Piledriver
2 Tarfire
2 Warping Wail
1 Tuktuk
2 Stingscourger
2 Gempalm
3 MWM
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Sharpshooter (61st card)
10 Mountain
4 Waste
4 Port
4 Cavern
1 Karakas

Side
4 Chalice
3 Pithing Needle
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Blood Moon
1 Tuktuk
1 Krenko

R1 Shardless BUG
G1 Mull to 6. There was a point where it was clear that he had the Deluge and I was effed. I was also punished for playing Sharpshooter this game as I drew it far too late for it to be of any value.
G2 I sided in 3 Moon and Krenko, sided out the Piledrivers and Tuktuk. I kept a 7 with Vial, Moon and 3 Ringleaders. Moon got thoughtsiezed, but then I drew another. Ringleaders made this one look easy.
G3 I sided out the Moons for Pithing Needle this time, figuring that Moon would be too slow on the draw and that my opponent would prioritize fetching for basics anyway. I mulled to 6 again and kept a hand with Lackey, Needle, and Matron. Matron got Thoughtseized and I was drawing dead from there. 0-1

R2 DnT
G1 I mull to 6, opponent mulls to 5. He's on the play and leads with Waste, pass. I Waste his Waste. He plays Plains, pass. I play Vial. He plays Revoker. I draw another Vial. He plays big Thalia. I play my third and final land drop and can't get any removal for the Revoker before he plays a Mom. That Revoker crushed me this game. Sharpshooter would have been of no help, due to THalia.
G2 I sided out Stingscourgers and 2 Piledrivers, brought in Tuktuk, Krenko and 2 Needles. I figured I don't want to be bouncing Recruiters, SFMs or even Revokers, so Needle seemed better than Stings. I mulled to 6 again and kept a hand with Warping Wail and Tuktuk and Needle but no Vial or Lackey. Opponent lead on Vial. I didn't Needle it. He played a Thalia which I Warped. THen he played a Sword of F&I, with three lands in play. I effed up and on my fourth turn I Tuktuked the Vial. My thinking was that he would need Land+2 drop in order to get Sword equipped on his turn, and I bet he wouldn't have both to make that play. I would be able to Needle his Sword the next turn. Turns out I was wrong in that line of play. He played a Thalia and Equipped it. I looked at the Needle in my hand like a maroon. I misvalued the Equipment and should have just killed the Sword instead of Vial Had my opponent missed a land drop it may have been another story and Vial might have been the better target. Alas, he did not. He played and equipped a Jitte the following turn. I scooped (though looking back that was bit premature since I still had an out in Karakas). Had I Tuktuked the Sword he would have still put a Jitte on Thalia, but I would have had Needle for Jitte and a chance to grind out the game.
0-2 Drop

Playing tomorrow. hoping not to Mull so much this time around

[kinda]

I definitely wouldn't side out piledriver vs shardless. He can't be blocked or bounced by strix/shardless agent/tnn/Jace and Drs dies it he blocks piledriver. That leaves only goyf and they have two options, leave goyf back to block and hope you can't swing with 3 dudes or attack and open themselves up to a big counterattack. In your list I would bring in krenko and moons, take out TUk Tuk sharpshooter definitely and then 1 stingscourger or the Karakas.

Edit: How is warping wail?

[woodjt5]

I got to play Legacy for the first time in a while this weekend at SCG Baltimore. My team finished 54th @ 6-3. I also went 6-3 with Goblins. These were my matches:

Death and Taxes (Loss)
Elves (Loss)
Death and Taxes (Win)
Burn (Win)
Death and Taxes (Win)
Sneak & Show (Win)
Reanimator (Loss)
Sylvan Plug (Win)
Infect (Win)

I played 4 Piledrives (usually play 3) because I was worried about True Name Nemesis. Never saw BUG or Miracles, both of which I consider to be good match-ups. The Round 1 loss to D&T was very frustrating and felt unlucky--I took 15 in the air from a naked Serra Avenger in the deciding game because I couldn't find a removal spell. But I absolutely smashed Infect in the last round, which is usually a tough pairing, so it all evened out in the end.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

I definitely wouldn't side out piledriver vs shardless. He can't be blocked or bounced by strix/shardless agent/tnn/Jace and Drs dies it he blocks piledriver. ...

I leave 1-2 in. Until lists start to run multiple Leovold's consistently I see no reason to leave more than 2 in post board. They are really good at pressing the assault, and by coincidence, checking Leovold. If one of those two things aren't happening then Piledriver is either close to alone, or close to alone and looking at a goyf. This is of course helped along by Toxic Deluge.

I tend to win the match in 1 of two ways, and that is:
1) Lackey advantage (I still board some to all out on the draw because of that stupid squire).
2) Ringleader value. Piledriver only assists in the rarer way to win.

There is a third and that's Krenko, if my list runs him. I personally really only want Krenko for this match-up, in general I prefer Siege-Gang Commander.

[woodjt5]

I got to play Legacy for the first time in a while this weekend at SCG Baltimore. My team finished 54th @ 6-3. I also went 6-3 with Goblins. These were my matches:

Death and Taxes (Loss)
Elves (Loss)
Death and Taxes (Win)
Burn (Win)
Death and Taxes (Win)
Sneak & Show (Win)
Reanimator (Loss)
Sylvan Plug (Win)
Infect (Win)

I played 4 Piledrives (usually play 3) because I was worried about True Name Nemesis. Never saw BUG or Miracles, both of which I consider to be good match-ups. The Round 1 loss to D&T was very frustrating and felt unlucky--I took 15 in the air from a naked Serra Avenger in the deciding game because I couldn't find a removal spell. But I absolutely smashed Infect in the last round, which is usually a tough pairing, so it all evened out in the end.

For reference, here's my list from this weekend:

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Mogg War Marshal
1 Stingscourger
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Chieftain
2 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

4 Aether Vial
3 Tarfire
1 Pyrokinesis

12 Mountains
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port

Sideboard
3 Ashen Rider
3 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Grafdigger’s Cage
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Pithing Needle

Krenko wins games. This list plays 7 haste enablers to make him as effective as possible. If you aren't playing him, you're doing it wrong. The difference in power level compared to Siege-Gang Commander is staggering.

[jrw1985]

Wish I could say I had as much success as woodtj5 yesterday but all I could manage was a 2-2 performance at a 30 player tournament. I changed up my decklist significantly from Saturday to Sunday and decided I wanted to just grind every match. I cut Piledriver entirely and upped the MWM count to 4. I upped Gempalm count to 4 as well and added 2 Skirk Prospectors Maindeck so I could have the line of T1 Skirk, T2 MWM>Gempalm on an x/2. I cut Siege-gang for Krenko and took Sharpshooter out of the main, reasoning that I wanted to be as consistent as possible and Sharpshooter is just a dead draw too often. I put him in the side. I cut Warping Wail for more Goblin shaped removal and for consistency, since I don't want to be stuck with 2 Mountains and a Wail or 2 Cavern and a Tarfire. Finally, I played a full set of Chieftains as my haste-enablers, figuring their +1/+1 was more significant when building a swarm.

The list...

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
4 Chieftain
3 Tarfire
1 Tuktuk
1 Stingscourger
4 Gempalm
4 MWM
2 Krenko
2 Skirk Propsector

10 Mountain
4 Waste
4 Port
4 Cavern
1 Karakas

Side
4 Chalice
3 Pithing Needle
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Blood Moon
1 Tuktuk
1 Sharpshooter

R1 Storm
G1 On the Draw I saw an opening 7 of 5 red cards with a smooth curve, Port and Vial. My opponent has generally been on midrangey decks in the past so I figure this is as good as any six. I get Duressed T1 and lose my Vial and I don't do anything relevant G1.
G2 I side out removal for Chalices. I contemplate whether to side in Surgical. Surgical has been a real dog when I've sided it in in the past, and when I do side it in it seems to be the only piece of hate I ever draw. I leave Surgical in my sideboard. I lead with a Lackey into T2 Chieftain, Port. I port him on upkeep. T2 he plays a fetchland. My T3 I have a MWM in hand and have to chose between casting it Pre-combat for 4 extra damage OR Porting my opponent again. Since he has a fetchland out I can't actually keep him off a color, so I decide to get in with damage. I didn't take time to do math, which I should have. He was at 17 life. If I attacked him for 4 with Chief and Lackey that puts him to 13, then I'd swing for 8 the following turn with MWM as well meaning I'd have 4 mana to cast enough goblins to do the last 5 damage that turn. I'm not sure that line would be a winner. Krenko or Chieftain are the only cards that get me there. However, it does give me an extra turn to draw a Chalice or even another POrt. So... I think I was overly aggressive in casting MWM pre-combat to set up the kill. Given the power of Storm I needed to cut off routes to victory, which meant I should have ported and played control there.
0-1
Regardless, I attacked my opponent down to 9 life which turned off my Port. He went off his next turn, T3.

R2 Miracles, new player, 2-0. He Counterspelled a Matron cast off CAvern G1. G2 he cast Ponder into Chalice @ 1.
1-1

R3 Standstill
G1 I had a Lackey and a MWM eat a Swords T2, leaving me with a lone token. THen my opponent played Standstill with 2 Faerie Enclaves. I just drew a bunch of Ports and Ported his Faeries and played a ton of lands. My lone goblin token did 7-10 damage before opponent finally cycled Decree of Justice for a couple Soldiers. At his next end step I Tarfired the tokens and broke the Standstill. I had 7 cards already and my opponent was about to discard anyway, so I really reduced the value there. From that point I just dumped my hand and won.
G2 I actually didn't bring in Blood Moon, which was probably a mistake, but I could see myself getting locked out by Jace so Needle seemed better. Looking back, I think Moon was the way to go. Anyway I won G2 without much difficulty.
2-1

R4 Eldrazi Taxes
If you haven't run into this deck just think of it as DnT with Eldrazi Displacer and Thought-knot Seer, plus a few Eldrazi lands in the manabase. I was feeling pretty confident going into this one.
G1 My first 7 cards were good for a Grindy matchup, plus I had a T1 Lackey. Lackey ate a Swords. I Ported him T2, then he started Wasting me. He played a Sword of FIre and ICe and I had Tuktuk in hand but he kept me at 2 lands with Wastes. Woof. That killed me this game.
G2 I sided in Needle and sided out Vial. I figured that this was going to be a grind so I needed to keep my creature count as high as possible. Also, his deck has multiple ways to disrupt Vial anyway. I led with T1 Lackey which again ate a Swords. Then a T2 Lackey ate a Swords as well. THen I never drew a Mountain, my CAvern got Wasted, and i ended the game with Port-Waste in play and a hand full of red cards. Oh, and he played a Containment Priest in there as well.
2-2

I misplayed against Storm by under-valuing Port, but that's not a matchup we're supposed to win anyway. THe wins against the two control decks felt inevitable and I had handfuls of goblins at the end of both games. The loss to Eldrazi Taxes is eating at me because both games my manabase took a shit on me, not unlike my Saturday tourney where I went 0-2. I'm now 2-4 over the past two days with 3 of those losses coming from my own deck. That needs to be addressed.

woodjt5 ran a minor tweak to his manabase that I'm going to implement. He cut 2 Ports so he could run 12 Mountains. That means 1/5 of his deck is basic Mountains. Being able to play a basic Mountain T1 is very important to our deck. We need to curve out since we're so heavy on 3 and 4 drops. Basics give you resilience against Waste which is extremely important for the tempo of the game. Think of an opening hand with Cavern and Mountain. If you play Cavern first (say, to cast uncounterable Lackey) you leave yourself open to Wasteland meaning T2 you can only cast a 1-drop. If you lead with Mountain you cannot guarantee that your Lackey is uncounterable, but you do guarantee that you'll have 2 mana on T2 to cast a Piledriver or MWM. We need our deck to be un-fuck-with-able as possible. We aren't playing ridiculously powerful or broken cards the will reward all-in approaches. We're playing 1/1s that grind. We need to be as consistent as possible.

Speaking of consistency, the cards I am least happy with right now are the Lords. They eat spot removal and generate 0 CA. I'm almost trying to play a deck with no good spot removal targets so that removal spells are card disadvantage for my opponent. If a Swords or Bolt or Decay is directed at MWM, Matron, Ringleader, SGC or an activated Krenko your opponent has lost CA. Yes, they got a 1:1 on cards for cards, but they killed a creature that already produced more creatures for you. So running Piledrivers or Lords seems bad since it makes their spot removal better. Piledriver is easily replaced with MWM, but there aren't any decent facimilies for Lords (Rabblemaster would be a fanastic replacement for Lords if he didn't come with the deal-breaking Must Attack text).

[kinda]

For reference, here's my list from this weekend:

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Mogg War Marshal
1 Stingscourger
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Chieftain
2 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

4 Aether Vial
3 Tarfire
1 Pyrokinesis

12 Mountains
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port

Sideboard
3 Ashen Rider
3 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Grafdigger’s Cage
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Pithing Needle

Krenko wins games. This list plays 7 haste enablers to make him as effective as possible. If you aren't playing him, you're doing it wrong. The difference in power level compared to Siege-Gang Commander is staggering.

I like this list a lot. Congrats!

[woodjt5]

woodjt5 ran a minor tweak to his manabase that I'm going to implement. He cut 2 Ports so he could run 12 Mountains. That means 1/5 of his deck is basic Mountains. Being able to play a basic Mountain T1 is very important to our deck. We need to curve out since we're so heavy on 3 and 4 drops. Basics give you resilience against Waste which is extremely important for the tempo of the game. Think of an opening hand with Cavern and Mountain. If you play Cavern first (say, to cast uncounterable Lackey) you leave yourself open to Wasteland meaning T2 you can only cast a 1-drop. If you lead with Mountain you cannot guarantee that your Lackey is uncounterable, but you do guarantee that you'll have 2 mana on T2 to cast a Piledriver or MWM. We need our deck to be un-fuck-with-able as possible. We aren't playing ridiculously powerful or broken cards the will reward all-in approaches. We're playing 1/1s that grind. We need to be as consistent as possible.



You're dead on with my reasoning here. Because I run the 7 haste enablers that cost 1RR, I've found that 8 colorless lands is too many. Further, 12 lands that can't cast Tarfire is too many when I'm running 3 of the removal spell. I've found that the trade-off works great, but I'm not comfortable running Warping Wail with this manabase.

I always lead with mountain whenever possible. The only exception is if I have a lackey and want to keep it from getting countered against an unknown opponent or a blue-based deck. That being said, I'd always prefer to lead on Vial instead of lackey in an unknown match-up. So its mountain if vial or no turn 1 play, cavern only if lackey and no vial and the opponent is unknown or a blue deck.

[kinda]

I'm a fan of 4 wasteland and 2 port plus 4 warchief and 2-3 chieftain, I ran this combination back in 2010 :cool: . List: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5557-DTB-Vial-Goblins&p=486314&highlight#post486314

Krenko wasn't an option in 2010 and tarfire/tuk tuk weren't needed in the meta as goyf was enemy #1 (or not even printed I don't remember). Otherwise pretty much the same list. So much nostalgia.

-1 mogg war marshall, -1 chieftain, -2 krenko, +3 siege gang commander +2 warren instigator
-3 tarfire -1 pyrokinesis +4 swords to plowshares