[Primer] Nic Fit

[Dalton!]

Ah ok. Blue is not my colour in legacy.

I hope we can build Jurassic Fit. That is what i am really looking towards. Regisaur, ripjaw and tyrant are all really solid. An agressive Jund list would be prefared by me. The Reddit nic fit group has an early version posted. Perhaps the balistas can help us with enrage...perhaps help ist not needed here. They must damage the raptor is they are low on life and are agressively pushed

[Brael]

Yeah, I never ran into issues with it. I might try to add a little more diversity with updates, since removing 2 Ballistae will open up some creature space, but I had no complaints with what I had. Probably going to go for Scavenging Ooze or Steve for one of them, and maybe a Carnage Tyrant or Siege Rhino for the second. My biggest complaint, really, was the overall "fair" feeling of the deck -- and I tend to link "fair" to "takes forever to win once its stabilize." I definitely value being able to turn the corner quickly as a player -- it's something that is at the center of every deck I've ever played and liked, all the way back to my first legacy deck (Dreadstill), and it's carried through my two most successful Nic Fit builds (Scapewish and Sneak), and my tendencies in modern (Harbinger) and even currently in standard (Scarab God).

I only cite my personal historic data as an anecdote. I really do think that with some minor changes, the deck is basically fine as-played. Swap out two Ballistae for different creatures to taste, swap out the Liliana Last Hopes for /probably/ Grapple with the Pasts but maybe the sideboard Pulse of Murasas? and then call it a day. It's similar to my issue with Salt Fit, which was on the opposite end of the spectrum -- it was all aggression, but it didn't have the midrange/control gameplan, so it made me feel like a merfolk player, and nobody wants to feel like a merfolk player. My complaining doesn't make the deck less fine.

Did you ever use the Palace Jailer? Thoughts on it?

Taking forever to win has been an issue. It's the main thing I've been trying to solve, but with as low to the ground as I generally keep my lists, that's a hard thing to do. It's a problem the archetype has in general, we're slower than Miracles. Though since losing SDT my builds have sped up dramatically. In fact, seeing how much SDT slowed us down was behind my rationale for beginning to cut it pre ban.

If you're looking for Delirium enablers, I've been playing a GB build in Modern and here's what I use in that: 8 fetches, 2 Walking Ballista, 2 Fulminator Mage, 6 instant (removal), 6 sorcery (discard), 2 Garruk Relentless, 1 Engineered Explosives, 1 Nihil Spellbomb, and in the sideboard 2 Ghost Quarter, 2 Collective Brutality, 2 Seal of Primordium, 2 Faerie Macabre. That's to power Grim Flayer+Ishkanah. Not all of that translates directly to Legacy, but I've been having good results with that mix, and it's relatively well positioned against DRS which is nice.

I will say, Walking Ballista+Glissa the Traitor has been pretty absurd. It's about on par with Jitte and is quickly becoming something I want to try in Legacy. Perhaps in a Ranger of Eos build.

[pettdan]

I've been trying Glissa + Ballista too for a while, in different decks, but never manage to put them together yet. Oh well, it seems pretty great. And Engineered Explosives goes well with it too, and Strix..

Really nice to see both Nyx Fit and Arianrhod's strange Ballista Spider build do well. I went 2-1 with Leshrac's Post Nic Fit build (+1 bye) this week, very tightly winning two games vs UR Delver, partly thanks to not seeing any Price of Progress, losing vs a 4c Welder+Bridge+Planeswalker+Mindslaver deck in tight games where I was looking through 20-ish cards for one of my two Ballistae and once I found it and played him as a 13/13 beast to over the next few turns get rid of the planeswalkers (Daretti, Dack and Nahiri[edit: oh Keranos too, kept 4 counters and shot welder, daretti and put Dack on 1 counter]) the opponent topdecks into Orbs of Warding which is pretty good next to planeswalkers and an Ensnaring Bridge.

[Ganfar]

Hi all! I want to try out a GB Nic-fit with focus on lands

https://deckstats.net/decks/21860/805172-gb-nic-fit?saved=1&lng=en

The foucs here is Titania, Protector of Argoth with Tireless and Ramunap Excavator.

We will go a head with ramp with Vetran and Caba. So I thought that GB version with wasteland maybe is good. Works well with Titania, Protector of Argoth.

I can also access to Hymn that can rellt be good in grindy match ups.

I have be thinking going more Delirium. If I can get more card types, then we can have Ishkanah, Grafwidow.

[fireiced]

Nyx Fitters, there are changes to layers when it comes to Humility and all the fellow "loses all abilities" static effects.

It is part of the Ixalan release so the Iconic Masters release notes did not explain the change quite well
Source:
https://mobile.twitter.com/EliShffrn/status/907274212724809728?dti=245920358820640&fref=gc

Apparently it is a buff to Dark Depths and a massive nerf to Vesuva and Cavern of Souls

https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/6zg4ay/magus_of_the_moon_update_in_iconic_masters/

[square_two]

It's mainly a buff against Eldrazi or stompy lists running Ballista. With Overwhelming Splendor out, Endless Ones and Walking Ballistas won't be entering with any counters. Suppose it's better against Painter as well, but if they already have a painter out naming a color, then everything will still be that color after Splendor (it's an earlier layer).

[Echelon]

So... On BGx Jurassic Fit... We got the following card:

Snapping Sailback, 4G

Flash

Enrage - Whenever ~ is dealt damage, put a +1/+1 counter on it.

4/4

Another fun card to use w/ Pestilence. Or Noxious Field. When stuck onto a basic land it's relatively hard to get rid of (and effectively also costs 1 mana to activate, although you can only use it once each turn). Or if we want to turn our Swamps into Snow Swamps, Withering Wisps. Just spitballing here.

Edit: When thinking about it, those cards hose Elves!/D&T/unflipped Delvers and shut off Empty the Warrens so it might not even be all that horrible.

[Ulysse95]

So... On BGx Jurassic Fit... We got the following card:

Snapping Sailback, 4G

Flash

Enrage - Whenever ~ is dealt damage, put a +1/+1 counter on it.

4/4

Another fun card to use w/ Pestilence. Or Noxious Field. When stuck onto a basic land it's relatively hard to get rid of (and effectively also costs 1 mana to activate, although you can only use it once each turn). Or if we want to turn our Swamps into Snow Swamps, Withering Wisps. Just spitballing here.

Edit: When thinking about it, those cards hose Elves!/D&T/unflipped Delvers and shut off Empty the Warrens so it might not even be all that horrible.

Have you think about Noxious fields (http://www.magic-ville.fr/fr/carte?pro070) ? Can be activated only 1 time unless you run voyaging satyr too. But stick the board even after a toic deluge/terminus/verdict

[Ulysse95]

Hi all! I want to try out a GB Nic-fit with focus on lands

https://deckstats.net/decks/21860/805172-gb-nic-fit?saved=1&lng=en

The foucs here is Titania, Protector of Argoth with Tireless and Ramunap Excavator.

We will go a head with ramp with Vetran and Caba. So I thought that GB version with wasteland maybe is good. Works well with Titania, Protector of Argoth.

I can also access to Hymn that can rellt be good in grindy match ups.

I have be thinking going more Delirium. If I can get more card types, then we can have Ishkanah, Grafwidow.

You're focusing on lands you say... But where are the crop rotation..??
It's a must on this way!

[Echelon]

Have you think about Noxious fields (http://www.magic-ville.fr/fr/carte?pro070) ? Can be activated only 1 time unless you run voyaging satyr too. But stick the board even after a toic deluge/terminus/verdict

Reread my post :laugh:

[Ulysse95]

Reread my post :laugh:

DAMNIT ECHELON !! ;)

But withering wisps won't be good I think, unless you're strict GB. Because you can't use dual on it.

[Navsi]

None of the enrage effects seem good enough to be worth running at the moment to be honest. The best one looks like it's the one that draws cards, but even there, committing two cards (creature + pinger) to get a card draw engine going is similar levels of commitment to something like Tracker + KOTR, or Huntmaster + Recurring Nightmare, both of which seem like similarly game ending card advantage engines on their own while also being way better cards when you don't draw the other half.

[Dalton!]

I believe that the rigjaw raptor has to stand in it's own with the upside that you can shoot hin with Punishing Fire if you want.
T

[Ulysse95]

None of the enrage effects seem good enough to be worth running at the moment to be honest. The best one looks like it's the one that draws cards, but even there, committing two cards (creature + pinger) to get a card draw engine going is similar levels of commitment to something like Tracker + KOTR, or Huntmaster + Recurring Nightmare, both of which seem like similarly game ending card advantage engines on their own while also being way better cards when you don't draw the other half.

You can run them with punishing fire too

Edit: Cross post Dalton ;)

[Navsi]

Thinking of taking this to event on Saturday.

2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Phyrexian Tower

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Baleful Strix
3 Tireless Tracker
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Fierce Empath

1 Distended Mindbender
1 Grave Titan
1 Emrakul, the Promised End

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Collective Brutality
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay

---

3 Surgical Extraction
2 To The Slaughter
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Lost Legacy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter


Any obvious issues / things I have missed? The sideboard is a bit clunky and the Mindbreak/Jitte/Garruk slots could possibly be changed. They want to be some number of combo hate and some number of grindy matchup cards - though I'm not sure how important the grinding stuff is when I already top out with Emrakul.

[removedfromgame]

So in my never ending quest to create sub optimal not blue midrange nonsense ive got together a GB list that im not wholly upset about. It is similar to SE fit in the approach, but not as low to the ground and a notable lack of bobs.

Test fit:

4 vet
3 drs
2 witness
3 tracker
1 titania

4 gsz
4 therapy
2 push
4 decay
2 brutality
1 edict

2 guile
1 library
3 deed

2 lotv
1 nissa vf

2 bayou
4 forest
3 swamp
1 h canopy
4 verdant
3 heath
1 tower
1 stronghold
1 waste

Board

1 ooze
3 extraction
3 thoughtseize
2 brutality
2 g charm
2 lost legacy
1 to the slaughter
1 deluge

Things of note:

I find that the deck itself feels smooth, yet a little anemic. Notably i have a high density of removal which i need to trim down. Im really into killing a lot of creatures but i have had way too many games where i had the opponent at parity only to topdeck air and then get crushed for stumbling.

I was running 3 guile and 20 land before cutting one for the 21st.

So i think i want to cut the pushes. I feel like with 4 decay plus deed amd brutality i can handle early onslaughts. So that means i want creatures. I toyed around with running two of hymn and im still interested in that but i think i want to replace the brutalities in the board with them if anything. I dont think theyre what i need maindeck but i feel like they have stronger applications vs combo or other problematic decks and i think a 2/2 split in the 75 is alright.

So dudes. I was thinking of bringing the ooze maindeck to assist in the random dredge match ups and to have an on curve guy who fights well, even if it's super vulnerable to every removal spell under the sun.

I want to run carnage tyrant. I genuinely believe that guy is the real thing. It makes me feel better about upping the land count. Another thought i entertained is running a 1 of scrubland in the base so i could jam a QPM because this list is weak to batterskull. Also it means my heaths can find black.

Outside of that i feel like this deck does not have super great match ups (unless we enter the mono slivers bracket) but i never feel like i dont have game against anything in the field. Even if the g1 might be tough.

I feel like gb just lacks "great" theats.

[Navsi]

I find that the deck itself feels smooth, yet a little anemic. Notably i have a high density of removal which i need to trim down. Im really into killing a lot of creatures but i have had way too many games where i had the opponent at parity only to topdeck air and then get crushed for stumbling.

I was running 3 guile and 20 land before cutting one for the 21st.

So i think i want to cut the pushes. I feel like with 4 decay plus deed amd brutality i can handle early onslaughts. So that means i want creatures. I toyed around with running two of hymn and im still interested in that but i think i want to replace the brutalities in the board with them if anything. I dont think theyre what i need maindeck but i feel like they have stronger applications vs combo or other problematic decks and i think a 2/2 split in the 75 is alright.

So dudes. I was thinking of bringing the ooze maindeck to assist in the random dredge match ups and to have an on curve guy who fights well, even if it's super vulnerable to every removal spell under the sun.

I want to run carnage tyrant. I genuinely believe that guy is the real thing. It makes me feel better about upping the land count. Another thought i entertained is running a 1 of scrubland in the base so i could jam a QPM because this list is weak to batterskull. Also it means my heaths can find black.

Outside of that i feel like this deck does not have super great match ups (unless we enter the mono slivers bracket) but i never feel like i dont have game against anything in the field. Even if the g1 might be tough.

I feel like gb just lacks "great" theats.

I think the main problem with GB lists is that it's very easy for us to run a three colour mana base. Like, 2/2/2 duals, 2/2/2 basics, 8-10 fetchlands and 1-3 utility lands is a very solid mana base and I don't think the GB one is really noticeably better. In that situation, adding another colour is basically just straight upside:

White for access to better removal (swords), sideboard hate (teeg, canonist) and finishers (sigarda)
Blue for access to better early stabilization (strix) and midgame threats (leovold)
Red for access to better sideboard hate (moon) and mid-late threats (huntmaster, soon regisaur)

Adding an additional colour also gives some good planeswalker options whichever choice you make.

I don't think the advantages of straight green/black are enough to make up for any of the above.

[Echelon]

So in my never ending quest to create sub optimal not blue midrange nonsense ive got together a GB list that im not wholly upset about. It is similar to SE fit in the approach, but not as low to the ground and a notable lack of bobs.

Test fit:

...List...

Things of note:

I find that the deck itself feels smooth, yet a little anemic. Notably i have a high density of removal which i need to trim down. Im really into killing a lot of creatures but i have had way too many games where i had the opponent at parity only to topdeck air and then get crushed for stumbling.

I was running 3 guile and 20 land before cutting one for the 21st.

So i think i want to cut the pushes. I feel like with 4 decay plus deed amd brutality i can handle early onslaughts. So that means i want creatures. I toyed around with running two of hymn and im still interested in that but i think i want to replace the brutalities in the board with them if anything. I dont think theyre what i need maindeck but i feel like they have stronger applications vs combo or other problematic decks and i think a 2/2 split in the 75 is alright.

So dudes. I was thinking of bringing the ooze maindeck to assist in the random dredge match ups and to have an on curve guy who fights well, even if it's super vulnerable to every removal spell under the sun.

I want to run carnage tyrant. I genuinely believe that guy is the real thing. It makes me feel better about upping the land count. Another thought i entertained is running a 1 of scrubland in the base so i could jam a QPM because this list is weak to batterskull. Also it means my heaths can find black.

Outside of that i feel like this deck does not have super great match ups (unless we enter the mono slivers bracket) but i never feel like i dont have game against anything in the field. Even if the g1 might be tough.

I feel like gb just lacks "great" theats.

Yup, you should have more meat to go with your potatoes. Scavenging Ooze would be a good start, but I'd also take a good, hard look at the 4 mana slot. That's usually pretty much the sweet spot when it comes to the landdrops you make w/ a 21 land manabase. Don't see Ooze as too frail though - yes, it dies to everything, but it can also do a lot of work. Ooze is actually quite underrated.

You could also cut an AD to bring back the 3rd copy of Mirri's Guile - more manipulation means having a better chance to find the bombs you do run.

I like my own builds to be relatively light on removal, but w/ a lot of creatures. It lets you pressure the opponent into submission. Does make your G1 vs. combo a lot worse though.

[TTX]

In a GB build with Titania and Trackers, how could you not be running
Sylvan Safekeeper
The Gitrog Monster
Ramunap Excavator?! I would also run Dryad Arbor and Meren with that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Navsi]

In a GB build with Titania and Trackers, how could you not be running
Sylvan Safekeeper
The Gitrog Monster
Ramunap Excavator?! I would also run Dryad Arbor and Meren with that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Safekeeper and Excavator are very solid. Gitrog always feels a bit win-more though - he's pretty underwhelming on his own, and needing support for your 5-drop to do powerful things is a bit awkward.

[fireiced]

Thinking of taking this to event on Saturday.

2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Phyrexian Tower

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Baleful Strix
3 Tireless Tracker
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Fierce Empath

1 Distended Mindbender
1 Grave Titan
1 Emrakul, the Promised End

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Collective Brutality
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay

---

3 Surgical Extraction
2 To The Slaughter
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Lost Legacy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter


Any obvious issues / things I have missed? The sideboard is a bit clunky and the Mindbreak/Jitte/Garruk slots could possibly be changed. They want to be some number of combo hate and some number of grindy matchup cards - though I'm not sure how important the grinding stuff is when I already top out with Emrakul.

I like it but kept wondering if you could squeeze some Ponders or Brainstorms in?
As for SB I always have 1 Reclamation Sage, always handy. MB Cliques are quite hateful towards Combo

[Ulysse95]

What do you think of:

http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Captivating-Crew-Ixalan-Spoiler.png

Not zenithable, but seems legit with all our sac effects.
Perhaps in a :b::r::g: shell with evolutionary leap?

Or only danger of cool thing..? :D

And I just saw this one:

http://www.magic-ville.fr/pics/pfou/xln/151.jpg
Demands more mana than goblin bombardement, but you can also sac tracker clues. Could be a thing in ashell with 4 of them as you often have too many clues to use them effectively. There it's a way to sac our vet and co and recycle our clues in remove creatures

[Echelon]

I don't see shit...

[Ulysse95]

I don't see shit...

4/3 human for :3::r:
:3::r: :Do act of treason on an opponnent creature as a ritual


enchant for:1::r:
:1: sac a creat or artifact : deals 1 damage to target creat or player

[Navsi]

I like it but kept wondering if you could squeeze some Ponders or Brainstorms in?
As for SB I always have 1 Reclamation Sage, always handy. MB Cliques are quite hateful towards Combo

Reclamation Sage is a pretty reasonable call, yeah. Might have to jam one in somewhere. I am not too fond of Ponder and Brainstorm - what would you cut for it? I'd rather have actual card advantage from tracker / strix / leovold / deed / etc than filter with cantrips most of the time. I don't think we can cut interaction for cantrips, which means it would be cutting into our threat density which seems suspect. I could see cutting the titan and possibly liliana, but I am not sure cantrips would be the right things to replace them with.

[removedfromgame]

I think the main problem with GB lists is that it's very easy for us to run a three colour mana base. Like, 2/2/2 duals, 2/2/2 basics, 8-10 fetchlands and 1-3 utility lands is a very solid mana base and I don't think the GB one is really noticeably better. In that situation, adding another colour is basically just straight upside:

White for access to better removal (swords), sideboard hate (teeg, canonist) and finishers (sigarda)
Blue for access to better early stabilization (strix) and midgame threats (leovold)
Red for access to better sideboard hate (moon) and mid-late threats (huntmaster, soon regisaur)

Adding an additional colour also gives some good planeswalker options whichever choice you make.

I don't think the advantages of straight green/black are enough to make up for any of the above.

The only reason i feel i would consider an extra colour is for side board slots. The deck is mana intensibe and having to set upother colours can be a hinderence somtimes. Also it leaves me open to wasteland blow outs.

Playing an extra colour doesnt give me access to anything i dont already have, just in some cases slightly better versions. Which is fine. Regisaur alpha makes red seem interesting but thats about it.


Yup, you should have more meat to go with your potatoes. Scavenging Ooze would be a good start, but I'd also take a good, hard look at the 4 mana slot. That's usually pretty much the sweet spot when it comes to the landdrops you make w/ a 21 land manabase. Don't see Ooze as too frail though - yes, it dies to everything, but it can also do a lot of work. Ooze is actually quite underrated.

You could also cut an AD to bring back the 3rd copy of Mirri's Guile - more manipulation means having a better chance to find the bombs you do run.

I like my own builds to be relatively light on removal, but w/ a lot of creatures. It lets you pressure the opponent into submission. Does make your G1 vs. combo a lot worse though.

Im wary of the 3rd guile. I can only run so many do nothing enchantments before it becomes a liability.

The 4 drop slotis my problem. Meren is unimpressive and there really isnt anything else that is great.

[Navsi]

The only reason i feel i would consider an extra colour is for side board slots. The deck is mana intensibe and having to set upother colours can be a hinderence somtimes. Also it leaves me open to wasteland blow outs.

Playing an extra colour doesnt give me access to anything i dont already have, just in some cases slightly better versions. Which is fine. Regisaur alpha makes red seem interesting but thats about it.

I honestly think that Swords to Plowshares and Baleful Strix are probably the biggest reasons to not be straight green-black in a fair build. Wasteland blowouts happen occasionally but we do play Veteran Explorer and a lot of the time we can get around it.

[Ulysse95]

The new wasteland seems to like both nic fit and tracker ^^

[Echelon]

New Wasteland..?

[Ulysse95]

New Wasteland..?

Field of Ruin
Land
T: Add :1: to your mana pool.
:2:, T, -Sacrifice Field of Ruin: Destroy target nonbasic land an opponent controls. Each player may search his or her library for a basic land card, put it onto the battlefield, then shuffle his or her library.

[Navsi]

Land, taps for colorless.

2, T: destroy target nonbasic land an opponent controls. Each player can get a basic and put it into play (untapped).

[removedfromgame]

I mean, i kind of like this. It makes path busted and does help power our trackers. One vet trigger and then this probably runs most decks out of basics completely.

[Brael]

I mean, i kind of like this. It makes path busted and does help power our trackers. One vet trigger and then this probably runs most decks out of basics completely.

That's still not saying much. Run the opponent out of basics, and then it's on par with Wasteland except you also spend 2 mana? Doesn't seem useful.

[removedfromgame]

That's still not saying much. Run the opponent out of basics, and then it's on par with Wasteland except you also spend 2 mana? Doesn't seem useful.

I didnt realise there was a cost attached

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Well, technically it only costs 1 to activate as long as there's a basic to grab from your library. Having said that, maybe not at it's full potential here.

I do think that makeshift munitions gives jund builds a much needed boost. I just don't have an interest in playing Sneak fit lol. Between this with trackers and the Punishing Grove combo, I think a deck is inevitable. I also really like that Punishing Fire is a turn 2 way of dropping their DRS OR your own veteran explorer.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[Brael]

I honestly think that Swords to Plowshares and Baleful Strix are probably the biggest reasons to not be straight green-black in a fair build. Wasteland blowouts happen occasionally but we do play Veteran Explorer and a lot of the time we can get around it.

I disagree, and I know we've gone back and forth on this a few times. I think there's two very strong reasons to be in GB. The first is card consistency. Adding a third color offers only marginal upgrades over two colors, at least only marginal over GB. I don't think the difference is large. But for those very slight power upgrades, you're paying a big price in mana. Two colors is much more consistent, and allows for a utility manabase that makes your openings more explosive. The white cards you add, also come at the expense of all of your card advantage. Blue is in a similar boat except Strix (when you're not pitching anything to FoW) is much worse than white removal. Adding a third color as a result involves the trade of either losing your CA for better removal or losing your board presense for weaker removal.

The other aspect I like about GB is that because you do have the card slots available, you're able to make a very explosive list. This is a deck that's all about maintaining a superior board presence. If you fall behind on the board you usually lose. Thanks to the increased mana consistency, but also the ability to run multiple towers (and the easier time of using tower mana) you can get out much quicker.

I'm not saying that GB is the best build, even though I favor it. I've been playing it for about 10 months now though, and it's easily just as competitive as any other list I've played. If you build it right, it has the proper power level, over the summer and late spring I was able to leverage GB to win an 11 and a 12 round legacy league (plus a top 4 after that). In the 12 rounder I went undefeated. GB is very viable.

[Navsi]

What card advantage effects are you talking about that you have to cut because you're running white?

What board presence cards are you talking about that you have to cut because you're running blue?

[conboy31]

Field of Rune is likely unplayable. If vet needs to wasteland someone its because it is a problem right now like Depths, maybe Karakas bouncing a legend heavy draw, Grove, etc.

[Brael]

What card advantage effects are you talking about that you have to cut because you're running white?

What board presence cards are you talking about that you have to cut because you're running blue?

Everything, for example Tireless Trackers are a frequent cut when you run white. Remember, adding white (or blue, or red, or whatever) isn't just adding a color. It's also removing already existing cards from the deck. Adding Path to Exile isn't just gaining removal, it's also losing whatever it was replacing.

Blue typically leads to a bad board presence because you're giving up whatever you're cutting for Baleful Strix. In almost all cases it's a switch from strong creatures, to a weak creature that still trades. The card draw is nice, but you have better options for draw in black, green, and white.

[Brael]

I believe that the rigjaw raptor has to stand in it's own with the upside that you can shoot hin with Punishing Fire if you want.
T

Ripjaw Raptor seems to have potential. I'm considering running one over Meren, or perhaps over my 4CC beater flex slot. 4/5 with upside is rather pushed for 4 mana.

I'm not even sure you need to run any sort of damage dealing enabler. It's hard to attack into, and hard to block as it is.

In a bit I'll post an idea I had, if it does need an enabler I like Walking Ballista... been thinking about a white build with Ranger of Eos in it again.

Edit: Something random I'm considering
Land 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor

Creatures 22
1 Endless One
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Walking Ballista
3 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness
1 Glissa, the Traitor
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
3 Tireless Tracker
2 Ranger of Eos
1 Ripjaw Raptor

Spells 17
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Crop Rotation
1 Nissa, Vital Force

[Brael]

So in my never ending quest to create sub optimal not blue midrange nonsense ive got together a GB list that im not wholly upset about. It is similar to SE fit in the approach, but not as low to the ground and a notable lack of bobs.


Sorry, meant to reply to this earlier and I got sidetracked. I think you're a bit too light on threats, you only have 4 creatures that can reasonably close out a game, not including DRS (but in general, I assume we're going to lose the DRS war), and 1 PW. You noted yourself that the deck feels a little anemic. This is why you need a few more hard hitting cards, and why you need the CA to tie it all together.

To explain this, you need to go back to the basis of SE which is that it wanted to run enough threats, that it could keep up in cards with a control deck and match threat for answer at 1:1 trades, with the idea that it had slightly more threats than they had answers, and the leftovers would be able to win the game. Your threat count is too low to do that, furthermore you're lacking the CA to tie it all together and chain threats.

I would agree with you that you're too high on straight removal spells. I think you generally want to be in the 12-14 range. However, you still want creatures that can interact. Eternal Witness is a good one, since it's a body (and GSZ'able) and can usually rebuy removal.

This is also where a card like Master of the Wild Hunt comes into play, or alternatively Garruk Relentless. It's threats plus removal. I've found that I usually don't want Liliana of the Veil, most cards are 2 for 1's and by discarding them I downgrade them to 1 for 1s.

Carnage Tyrant seems good, but it's still 6 mana, which means 7 off a GSZ. Throw in a random Wasteland from the opponent, and you're going to need to see 8 lands to cast it. That means 6+ turns if you fired off a Vet, and more realistically 9-10 turns. It also means that in order to hit those lands, you need to be digging through 25+ cards in your deck in order to make it on curve. Which means needing a lot of CA. Then there's the issue that you're casting a 7 drop that doesn't have an immediete impact. It takes a full turn to cast, then it can't start swinging until the next turn, and once it does it's still probably going to be a 3-4 turn clock.

I'm not going to say the card is bad, but I think it's worse than Primeval Titan.

[removedfromgame]

Sorry, meant to reply to this earlier and I got sidetracked. I think you're a bit too light on threats, you only have 4 creatures that can reasonably close out a game, not including DRS (but in general, I assume we're going to lose the DRS war), and 1 PW. You noted yourself that the deck feels a little anemic. This is why you need a few more hard hitting cards, and why you need the CA to tie it all together.

To explain this, you need to go back to the basis of SE which is that it wanted to run enough threats, that it could keep up in cards with a control deck and match threat for answer at 1:1 trades, with the idea that it had slightly more threats than they had answers, and the leftovers would be able to win the game. Your threat count is too low to do that, furthermore you're lacking the CA to tie it all together and chain threats.

I would agree with you that you're too high on straight removal spells. I think you generally want to be in the 12-14 range. However, you still want creatures that can interact. Eternal Witness is a good one, since it's a body (and GSZ'able) and can usually rebuy removal.

This is also where a card like Master of the Wild Hunt comes into play, or alternatively Garruk Relentless. It's threats plus removal. I've found that I usually don't want Liliana of the Veil, most cards are 2 for 1's and by discarding them I downgrade them to 1 for 1s.

Carnage Tyrant seems good, but it's still 6 mana, which means 7 off a GSZ. Throw in a random Wasteland from the opponent, and you're going to need to see 8 lands to cast it. That means 6+ turns if you fired off a Vet, and more realistically 9-10 turns. It also means that in order to hit those lands, you need to be digging through 25+ cards in your deck in order to make it on curve. Which means needing a lot of CA. Then there's the issue that you're casting a 7 drop that doesn't have an immediete impact. It takes a full turn to cast, then it can't start swinging until the next turn, and once it does it's still probably going to be a 3-4 turn clock.

I'm not going to say the card is bad, but I think it's worse than Primeval Titan.

Is there a replacement for bob? He's what makes the list unattainable for me right now.

[Brael]

I don't know if there's a replacement, he's the only 2 drop I've found so far that gives meaningful CA aside from Stoneforge Mystic. And Stoneforge builds look a lot different.

[Echelon]

I mean, i kind of like this. It makes path busted and does help power our trackers. One vet trigger and then this probably runs most decks out of basics completely.

And here I was thinking PtE was busted anyways. It's only the best spotremoval Legacy has to offer.


Everything, for example Tireless Trackers are a frequent cut when you run white. Remember, adding white (or blue, or red, or whatever) isn't just adding a color. It's also removing already existing cards from the deck. Adding Path to Exile isn't just gaining removal, it's also losing whatever it was replacing.

I've been adding more Trackers to my Junk list rather than cutting them.

As for what PtE replaces - it usually replaces Fatal Push. You're not telling me that Fatal Push > PtE.

[Navsi]

Everything, for example Tireless Trackers are a frequent cut when you run white. Remember, adding white (or blue, or red, or whatever) isn't just adding a color. It's also removing already existing cards from the deck. Adding Path to Exile isn't just gaining removal, it's also losing whatever it was replacing.

Blue typically leads to a bad board presence because you're giving up whatever you're cutting for Baleful Strix. In almost all cases it's a switch from strong creatures, to a weak creature that still trades. The card draw is nice, but you have better options for draw in black, green, and white.

Tracker coming out is just not going to be happening just because I'm in white, thanks very much.

Strix does not take up a 'proactive creature' slot. It's a removal / stabilization effect that trades up in cards.

Just for reference, what green/black list are you looking at cuts from here?

[Namtar]

Hi, been lurking for some time around here and finished building/playing my first version of Rhino Fit 2 months ago so take everything here with a grain of salt.

One of my favourite cards in the deck so far has been Green Sun's Zenith, especially post-board for powerhouses like Gaddock Teeg. We've seen Arianrhod experiment with Traverse which is great but still conditional. There was also a one post discussion about Eladamri's Call but most felt it was cost prohibitive. Which finally got me wondering about Worldly Tutor it IS weaker than GSZ, but as a one or two-of I like that it brings something different; instant speed means you can play around certain things and it still allows you to hardcast uncounterable beasts. More importantly, Inlike that if it gets countered I haven't just committed 4-5+ mana. Another crazy idea was using Living Wish

So, random shower thought but I'd really like to hear some opinions on tutor alternatives not just in terms of being a toolbox but also of having the right threat at the right time.

Thanks to everyone posting here, I for one, love reading you all on the way to work!

[Echelon]

The problem with Worldly Tutor is that it's card disadvantage - you spend a card to draw something you want a turn later (and have nothing to do in the meantime). That's just not where you want to be.

Living Wish has the same problem Eladamri's Call has - it costs 2 mana (and, depending on your build, eats up some precious SB space, but that's a different discussion).

[Namtar]

Fair enough, but sometimes I just wish I could play 6 copies of GSZ, Cabal Therapy and Veterans (although DRS can sometimes fill that role similarly).

Thanks!

[Navsi]

Eladamri's Call
Worldly Tutor
Living Wish

Worldly Tutor is card disadvantage which is a real issue in a grindy deck like ours. It also increases our vulnerability to Chalice and doesn't let us fetch up an answer we need this turn.

Living Wish is nice but the hit to our sideboard is an issue. Like other tutors (Traverse for example) it also can't be used to get an explorer into play on turn two which is an important function of Zenith in the deck.

Eladamri's Call is, in my opinion, the best non-Zenith option we have. It has actual upsides (instant speed) that help to mitigate the downside of not supporting early Explorers.

The three all have the same primary upside over Zenith - finding non green creatures. If you are specifically trying to build very heavily around a non green creature, then that is a reasonable reason to actually want to run one of these. However it does come with significant impacts to our early mana acceleration. The only build where I'd ever really consider running any of these would be when I'm trying to find Academy Rector. I've tried to make it work, and even when finding Rector (which is probably the most powerful thing Nic Fit can be doing when building around a non green creature as far as I can think of) I wasn't able to get a build I was happy with using Eladamri's Call.

Other options to consider would be Recruiters of either flavor. I don't think any of the options above make acceptable substituted for Zenith, though.

One other upside these cards have is that they work when you cast them for free somehow, whereas for Zenith x=0 in that scenario. I don't know if anything has been tested there but there might be some possibilities with Shardless Agent or something.

-------------------


On an unrelated note - Looking for opinions on what fat monster to play in a BUG build I am working on.

- CMC6 or so is where I am looking. I am playing Fierce Empath. Being a green creature is nice, but not necessary. If it's less than 6CMC, it has to be green.

- Stabilizing in the face of a threatening board presence would be useful.

- Providing a clock would, again, be quite handy.

- It doesn't need to be a completely unstoppable game ender. I already have Emrakul, the Promised End as a 'game over' Empath target.

- Not being completely dead vs combo would be nice, but I already have Fierce Empath -> Distended Mindbender, and Leovold, so my Zeniths are not dead in those match ups either way.

Currently looking at these options:

- Elder Deep-Fiend - stabilizes temporarily but not permanently. Castable for less than 6 is nice. Tapping lands helps against combo, and 5/6 statline blocks Anglers well. Tapping creatures down even if countered is nice.

- Grave Titan - stabilizes very well and also provides a fast clock. Hard to cast, slow, and no combo interaction however, and not Zenithable.

- Ishkanah - stabilizes well, moderate clock, but cheap. Potential risks of not having delirium. Zenithable. Leaves me with only two Empath targets which is a bit suspect.

- Hornet Queen - stabilizes very well, evasive clock. Zenithable. However, tons of mana. Stabilization is a lot less interesting if I can't reasonably cast it.

- Titania - stabilizes well, very fast clock, cheap. Doesn't like karakas or drs very much. Fast clock makes her potentially not-useless against combo. Zenithable, but only two empath targets again.

- Gurmag Angler / Tombstalker - reasonable choices, but have anti-synergy with the Emrakul lategame plan.

Spice option: Avatar of Woe. Potential to be super cheap, kills stuff, hard to block. Garbage against combo and probably also aggro though. For reference I am currently playing 18 creatures, three Brutality and one Liliana LH as far as yard filling goes. I suspect that by the time there are 10 creatures in graveyards I'll probably be looking at getting Emrakul anyway, but if the opponent is on a creature deck things suddenly get a lot more doable.

[Ulysse95]

The problem with Worldly Tutor is that it's card disadvantage - you spend a card to draw something you want a turn later (and have nothing to do in the meantime). That's just not where you want to be.

Living Wish has the same problem Eladamri's Call has - it costs 2 mana (and, depending on your build, eats up some precious SB space, but that's a different discussion).

I really like Eladamri's call. On some builds (with non green creatures), it can be a good option to mix with GSZ. Also it's really strong with Faerie macabre post side.
Plus, in a meta full of tempo decks, it's better to turn around daze and spell pierce.

About wordly tutor, even if you forget a second the card disadvantage, it's not worth it in a meta blossoming in predict (EoT I play wordly tutor, opponnent"mmm.. upkeep I play predict on you, you drop your beast in grave and I draw 2, thanks" )

[Brael]

As for what PtE replaces - it usually replaces Fatal Push. You're not telling me that Fatal Push > PtE.

I don't run Fatal Push, I use Diabolic Edict for that slot. The point of Path is that it can kill big creatures from combo decks like Reanimator or Show and Tell. Fatal Push doesn't do that. Still, Path is better than Edict, but you're not going to run white for just 2-3 Path's. What else are you running white for?

Rhino? It's a good card, but it's coming in at the expense of other 4 drops. And, Rhino builds haven't been performing well lately.
Sigarda? Less necessary now that we have Nissa.

I'm not saying don't run white (I just posted a white list afterall), only that it changes your strategy if you do. GB has a lot of powerful and synergistic cards on its own. It's a lot more complex than just saying, it's strictly better to always run a third color.

[Brael]

Tracker coming out is just not going to be happening just because I'm in white, thanks very much.

Strix does not take up a 'proactive creature' slot. It's a removal / stabilization effect that trades up in cards.

Just for reference, what green/black list are you looking at cuts from here?

Then what is going out? You can't be adding white creatures without removing some existing ones, if not from an existing deck, then from a pool of cards under consideration.

The problem with Strix isn't Baleful Strix itself, it's that there's no other good blue cards, especially creatures to run alongside it. Most of blues power in the format comes from Cantrips and FoW and neither are cards this deck is interested in. That only leaves a couple other random cards like Jace, which requires a bigger blue splash and still actively makes GSZ worse by including it. Leovold is helping to close the gap, but it's still not enough.

[square_two]

Skeptical to see mention of loss/gains when adding blue and not having Jace come up. We've spent years including some number of sideboard slots just to fight against an opposing Jace, heck I'm still seeing some slots pop up to fill that duty (at least partially - To the Slaughter). Slamming an early Jace is an incredibly powerful aspect of bug fit.

Edit: Jace just mentioned, nevermind. Feel like I'm the only one that values him highly for some reason.

Back to other discussions though - can't wait for the walker changes to take effect. I'm curious to finally try out Nissa, Steward of Elements once there is no contention between her and her older sister. She makes quite a pair with Jace TMS - brainstorm and put a creature from hand to top of deck, then 0 Nissa to put it in both for free and without being countered. Otherwise she is constant card selection when backed up by Strixes and a late-game threat. I'm not -quite- sure if she's cheap enough or powerful enough but I want to do some testing at least.

Nyx is still feeling a tad inconsistent, so my knee-jerk reaction is to jam bug fit again and have consistency up to my eyeballs.

Something like:

2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest

3 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

1 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Fatal Push
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Green Sun's Zenith

1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Nissa, Steward of Elements
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Nissa, Vital Force

side:
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Fairie Macabre
2 Thoughtseize
2 Lost Legacy
2 Pulse of Murasa
1 Toxic Deluge
1 To the Slaughter

Thought about going to 2 Brainstorm and cutting the Decay, but it's still a nice out to non-creature permanents when you don't have a deed handy. Think of the single Brainstorm as a squirt of oil for this machine. Could similarly be a 4th GSZ, except that it's additional help in finding sideboard cards for games 2/3. Unsure about Lily LH here...if only she killed Deathrites - didn't want Lily Veil since I'm most likely not wanting to pitch cards. Removal numbers also might be slightly off - cut a push for another brainstorm? Ah well, you get the idea, it's pretty standard bug imo.

[Brael]

Back to other discussions though - can't wait for the walker changes to take effect. I'm curious to finally try out Nissa, Steward of Elements once there is no contention between her and her older sister. She makes quite a pair with Jace TMS - brainstorm and put a creature from hand to top of deck, then 0 Nissa to put it in both for free and without being countered. Otherwise she is constant card selection when backed up by Strixes and a late-game threat. I'm not -quite- sure if she's cheap enough or powerful enough but I want to do some testing at least.


I want to try the same thing, like you said it curves perfectly into Jace as either a 3-4, 4-4, or 4-5 curve. I haven't figured out how I want to build the deck beyond that though.

[Navsi]

Then what is going out? You can't be adding white creatures without removing some existing ones, if not from an existing deck, then from a pool of cards under consideration.

The problem with Strix isn't Baleful Strix itself, it's that there's no other good blue cards, especially creatures to run alongside it. Most of blues power in the format comes from Cantrips and FoW and neither are cards this deck is interested in. That only leaves a couple other random cards like Jace, which requires a bigger blue splash and still actively makes GSZ worse by including it. Leovold is helping to close the gap, but it's still not enough.

The most recent blue list I wrote runs 14 blue sources, for a total of 3 Strix, 2 Leovold, 2 Clique, 2 JTMS. I don't think that is unreasonable. Not sure why you think JTMS makes Zenith worse.

Frankly for what cards to cut from white, I don't know what GB stuff you are filling those slots with so I am not sure what is getting 'cut'.

The most recent white list I made runs this creature list:
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Eternal Witness
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

I suppose straight green/black cuts Sigarda and Pridemage for Titania and Reclamation Sage, then drops SFM for something? I do think these changes are relatively minor, but the Edict -> STP change is really not a minor one in the slightest. One mana is better than two, exile effects are useful, being able to deal with shit like Mentor and YP and KOTR is also very very useful.

[JackaBo]

JTMS is the best use of 4 mana, especially in a deck that also plays a bunch of creatures to pressure. I like square two's bug list: playset shamans plus gsz means you can win the shaman-war which can win on it's own. Maybe 3 strix is enough? In a deck with a bunch of mana i prefer decay over push, maybe a 2/2 split?

[Brael]

Frankly for what cards to cut from white, I don't know what GB stuff you are filling those slots with so I am not sure what is getting 'cut'.


I'm talking less a specific list and more in generalities. If you want my GB list it's
Land 23
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
5 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Dyrad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog

Creatures 19
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
2 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Master of the Wild Hunt

Spells 18
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
1 Collective Brutality
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

I don't remember my sideboard at the moment. And I go back and forth on Titania or another land (probably a third Swamp) as the 61st card. The list has plenty of interaction, and hits hard.



I suppose straight green/black cuts Sigarda and Pridemage for Titania and Reclamation Sage, then drops SFM for something? I do think these changes are relatively minor, but the Edict -> STP change is really not a minor one in the slightest. One mana is better than two, exile effects are useful, being able to deal with shit like Mentor and YP and KOTR is also very very useful.

Path is better, but to include it you give up manabase utility. GB can afford 5 utility lands without really stretching itself, a 3 color deck can really only fit in 3, 2 if you do the typical 20 or 21 land count.

Notably, I credit two cards to making GB work, and I already know you disagree with both but they are the reason my deck functions. Dark Confidant and Crop Rotation. Crop Rotation in particular does so much for your matchups against the field that it's absurd. It gives you a fighting chance against combo, it lets you get on the board quicker than your opponent, it can get you a critical turn against D&T. There's just a lot of things the card does well. And Bob is just part of the CA glue that holds everything together. Bob/Tracker make for an excellent CA package.

[Echelon]

Rhino? It's a good card, but it's coming in at the expense of other 4 drops. And, Rhino builds haven't been performing well lately.
Sigarda? Less necessary now that we have Nissa.

What 4-drops? That's BG's biggest problem area. :laugh:

As for Sigarda/Nissa - sure, but good luck GSZ'ing for Nissa. You'll have a much easier time finding Sigarda than you do finding your lone copy of Nissa. Especially since a lot of people tend to skip on library manipulation.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that opportunity cost is an important thing. I'm just looking at this from the BGW perspective rather than the BG perspective.

[Arianrhod]

If anyone wants to even possibly play Nyx Fit at any point, I recommend picking up your Academy Rectors ASAP. The supply of the card is slowly drying up and it looks like it's poised for one of the reserved list spikes that's been happening to a lot of older cards recently. Would rather everyone here who might play the deck is aware and grabs them than speculators who are trying to cash in on the next Transmute Artifact.

[Brael]

What 4-drops? That's BG's biggest problem area. :laugh:


There's several good options for 4 drops:
Thrun, the Last Troll
Chameleon Colossus
Meren of Clan Nel Toth
Master of the Wild Hunt
Garruk Relentless
Ripjaw Raptor

That's 6 options right there, 5 of which you can GSZ for..

[rubblekill]

There's several good options for 4 drops:
Thrun, the Last Troll
Chameleon Colossus
Meren of Clan Nel Toth
Master of the Wild Hunt
Garruk Relentless
Ripjaw Raptor

That's 6 options right there, 5 of which you can GSZ for..

And the first two are insane right now. They are my 2 big creatures in my BG list, decks like pile can't really handle those two easily, especially in game 1.
Meanwhile rhino gets pushed and walled by strix. You don't really want to play the "kill your strix" game against grindy decks like that one.
Online pile is everywhere right now.

[Brael]

And the first two are insane right now. They are my 2 big creatures in my BG list, decks like pile can't really handle those two easily, especially in game 1.
Meanwhile rhino gets pushed and walled by strix. You don't really want to play the "kill your strix" game against grindy decks like that one.
Online pile is everywhere right now.

I prefer a mix of CA and hitting hard. So I like Colossus a lot, my other slot has been Meren but I think it's going to be the Raptor once Ixalan comes out. The bigger body is nice, but the more conditional CA might be a problem. A definite weakness of the raptor is that if it gets Fatal Pushed you get nothing.

[rubblekill]

I prefer a mix of CA and hitting hard. So I like Colossus a lot, my other slot has been Meren but I think it's going to be the Raptor once Ixalan comes out. The bigger body is nice, but the more conditional CA might be a problem. A definite weakness of the raptor is that if it gets Fatal Pushed you get nothing.

Raptor isn't worth for similar reasons rhino isn't worth. And it's conditional.
I abandoned meren long ago and never looked back: this is Drs.format, a singleton 4 mana legend that most of the times gets stalled by their llanowar elf is not consistent enough to be considered viable in my opinion.

Thrun is nearly unbeatable for pile, especially in g1, and he is nice against miracles.

6 mana dino is the best at what it does in the matchups where I would want to have him(probably even better than sigarda in that regard, they both die only to terminus), but at 6 mana I consider him a sideboard trump card to beat miracles.

My 2c

[Arianrhod]

Raptor isn't worth for similar reasons rhino isn't worth. And it's conditional.
I abandoned meren long ago and never looked back: this is Drs.format, a singleton 4 mana legend that most of the times gets stalled by their llanowar elf is not consistent enough to be considered viable in my opinion.

Thrun is nearly unbeatable for pile, especially in g1, and he is nice against miracles.

6 mana dino is the best at what it does in the matchups where I would want to have him(probably even better than sigarda in that regard, they both die only to terminus), but at 6 mana I consider him a sideboard trump card to beat miracles.

My 2c

I'm recalcitrant to relegate Meren because she's just such a hilariously broken card when she's online, but it's probably correct to do so, realistically. At the same time, I've actually been eying Recurring Nightmare again as my lists have become inherently more hateful towards Deathrite Shaman -- if the bastard dies on sight virtually every time he hits play, then should we really be so respectful of him?

Strix is a quiet overperformer in the metagame, and being able to cleanly get through them is underappreciated. Colossus is best at this, but Master of the Wild Hunt and Thrun are "ok" as well. Just remember to watch out for their edicts; it's the only clean way they have to get rid of Colossus.

Of note: Carnage is very weak to Strix, as is Sigarda. This is enough of a drawback for Sigarda that I haven't even been running her in a white build. I'm not sure if Carnage having trample is sufficient of a push to justify the slot.

I don't think that Ripjaw is good enough unless you're going deep on some kind of Pestilence bullshittery (which I don't think is good enough, either, but who really knows).

[rubblekill]

I'm recalcitrant to relegate Meren because she's just such a hilariously broken card when she's online, but it's probably correct to do so, realistically. At the same time, I've actually been eying Recurring Nightmare again as my lists have become inherently more hateful towards Deathrite Shaman -- if the bastard dies on sight virtually every time he hits play, then should we really be so respectful of him?

Strix is a quiet overperformer in the metagame, and being able to cleanly get through them is underappreciated. Colossus is best at this, but Master of the Wild Hunt and Thrun are "ok" as well. Just remember to watch out for their edicts; it's the only clean way they have to get rid of Colossus.

Of note: Carnage is very weak to Strix, as is Sigarda. This is enough of a drawback for Sigarda that I haven't even been running her in a white build. I'm not sure if Carnage having trample is sufficient of a push to justify the slot.

I don't think that Ripjaw is good enough unless you're going deep on some kind of Pestilence bullshittery (which I don't think is good enough, either, but who really knows).

That's the reason I said I want the Dino against miracles and not pile! For this very reason I consider him a sideboard card.
At 6 mana it is not the finisher I want against delver to be honest..

I agree with you on the rest. I my gb list I play a white splash for sb cards and initially I played Sigarda: the conclusion was that the card was not worth it because there is too much pile and strixes online. If I want that type of card to have something to beat miracles, the dino seems even better with trample and higher power.

In this moment I see exactly zero reasons to play white to be honest.
E: unless you are into cheesing people with overwhelming splendor. Man that feeling is amazing.

[Navsi]

That's the reason I said I want the Dino against miracles and not pile! For this very reason I consider him a sideboard card.
At 6 mana it is not the finisher I want against delver to be honest..

I agree with you on the rest. I my gb list I play a white splash for sb cards and initially I played Sigarda: the conclusion was that the card was not worth it because there is too much pile and strixes online. If I want that type of card to have something to beat miracles, the dino seems even better with trample and higher power.

In this moment I see exactly zero reasons to play white to be honest.
E: unless you are into cheesing people with overwhelming splendor. Man that feeling is amazing.

I would say the Stoneforge plan was a solid one - having a 2-drop that both threatens the enemy and generates card advantage is a wonderful thing - but the prevalence of Kolaghan's Command right now makes that plan a whole lot worse.

[pettdan]

I would say the Stoneforge plan was a solid one - having a 2-drop that both threatens the enemy and generates card advantage is a wonderful thing - but the prevalence of Kolaghan's Command right now makes that plan a whole lot worse.

I like how Renegade Rallier negates Kolaghan's Command (well, if they destroyed Jitte) and alternatively acts as mana ramp. It trades with Strix too, without card disadvantage. But I'm still a bit skeptical about its role in Nic Fit, just wanted to add it.

[rubblekill]

I would say the Stoneforge plan was a solid one - having a 2-drop that both threatens the enemy and generates card advantage is a wonderful thing - but the prevalence of Kolaghan's Command right now makes that plan a whole lot worse.

Yes, that's exactly the reason why. Hell, batterskull cost 17 tix some days ago, and I remember it being a 36+ tix card. Kommand is probably one of the reasons the SFM hype died out pretty quickly after the top ban.

[Arianrhod]

That's the reason I said I want the Dino against miracles and not pile! For this very reason I consider him a sideboard card.
At 6 mana it is not the finisher I want against delver to be honest..

I agree with you on the rest. I my gb list I play a white splash for sb cards and initially I played Sigarda: the conclusion was that the card was not worth it because there is too much pile and strixes online. If I want that type of card to have something to beat miracles, the dino seems even better with trample and higher power.

In this moment I see exactly zero reasons to play white to be honest.
E: unless you are into cheesing people with overwhelming splendor. Man that feeling is amazing.

The reason to be in white atm is sideboard cards, honestly. Even in my white splashed delirium list, the only maindeck white cards are a pair of StP to diversify my removal, Qasali (which is technically replaceable with RecSage), Sun Titan (because Titan/Deed is the most broken thing you can do in that deck), and Palace Jailer, which it's not even clear he's better than Custodi Lich.

The real draw is what the sideboard offers, which includes Canonist, Kambal, Sanctum Prelate, and Teeg. Blessed Alliance is an upgrade over Diabolic Edict, and Lingering Souls is strong at the moment. Zealous Persecution is at least on par with Golgari Charm, IMO.

[Navsi]

The reason to be in white atm is sideboard cards, honestly. Even in my white splashed delirium list, the only maindeck white cards are a pair of StP to diversify my removal, Qasali (which is technically replaceable with RecSage), Sun Titan (because Titan/Deed is the most broken thing you can do in that deck), and Palace Jailer, which it's not even clear he's better than Custodi Lich.

The real draw is what the sideboard offers, which includes Canonist, Kambal, Sanctum Prelate, and Teeg. Blessed Alliance is an upgrade over Diabolic Edict, and Lingering Souls is strong at the moment. Zealous Persecution is at least on par with Golgari Charm, IMO.

If a list built around Ramunap Excavator ever gets working, Knight of the Reliquary would probably be involved, also.

The blue list I'm playing right now runs blue for two Clique, two Leovold, three Strix, one Elder Deep-Fiend, two Jaces and two Mindbreak Traps in the sideboard. I think it's pretty similar - the green black core is solid, but supplementing some holes (combo hate mainly) with another colour helps a lot.

[rubblekill]

The reason to be in white atm is sideboard cards, honestly. Even in my white splashed delirium list, the only maindeck white cards are a pair of StP to diversify my removal, Qasali (which is technically replaceable with RecSage), Sun Titan (because Titan/Deed is the most broken thing you can do in that deck), and Palace Jailer, which it's not even clear he's better than Custodi Lich.

The real draw is what the sideboard offers, which includes Canonist, Kambal, Sanctum Prelate, and Teeg. Blessed Alliance is an upgrade over Diabolic Edict, and Lingering Souls is strong at the moment. Zealous Persecution is at least on par with Golgari Charm, IMO.

That's what I think. My GB list always had a scrubland so that I can play the best combo hate available in the side: canonist and teeg.

White was the best color during the eldrazi winter, thanks to path, Dromoka (a card I have not felt the need to play for a long time), and of course rhino.

[Brael]

If a list built around Ramunap Excavator ever gets working, Knight of the Reliquary would probably be involved, also.

My main deck for the past 4 weeks or so has been an Excavator build of Maverick. It doesn't work as well in practice as it looks like it does. There's been few situations where I want to GSZ an Excavator to get a Wasteland over just getting a Knight to Wasteland and become a bigger threat.

[Echelon]

I think that if you intend to run Excavator, it should just be to ensure your mana development works out to the point where you can start dropping bombs.

[Purple Blood]

I'm talking less a specific list and more in generalities. If you want my GB list it's
Land 23
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
5 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Dyrad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog

Creatures 19
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
2 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Master of the Wild Hunt

Spells 18
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
1 Collective Brutality
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

I don't remember my sideboard at the moment. And I go back and forth on Titania or another land (probably a third Swamp) as the 61st card. The list has plenty of interaction, and hits hard.



Path is better, but to include it you give up manabase utility. GB can afford 5 utility lands without really stretching itself, a 3 color deck can really only fit in 3, 2 if you do the typical 20 or 21 land count.

Notably, I credit two cards to making GB work, and I already know you disagree with both but they are the reason my deck functions. Dark Confidant and Crop Rotation. Crop Rotation in particular does so much for your matchups against the field that it's absurd. It gives you a fighting chance against combo, it lets you get on the board quicker than your opponent, it can get you a critical turn against D&T. There's just a lot of things the card does well. And Bob is just part of the CA glue that holds everything together. Bob/Tracker make for an excellent CA package.

What do you think about Grim Flayer in place of the Dark Confidant slot? Not too keen on shelling that much at the moment but Flayer's price tanked a lot and there's debatable upside to using him over Bob. Also might make Traverse more attractive also since you'll pretty much immediately enable delirium if you get a hit in.

[Brael]

What do you think about Grim Flayer in place of the Dark Confidant slot? Not too keen on shelling that much at the moment but Flayer's price tanked a lot and there's debatable upside to using him over Bob. Also might make Traverse more attractive also since you'll pretty much immediately enable delirium if you get a hit in.

I've been playing Grim Flayer in Modern and I don't think it's good enough. The point of Dark Confidant is that it can generate value in board stalls, and generate even more value when you're ahead. Grim Flayer generates no value in a board stall, and lesser value when you're ahead. 4/4 is also a bad size to be in Legacy because you lose to everything: Batterskull, Sword weilders, Baleful Strix, Tasigur, Angler, Goyf, and so on.

Dark Confidant is much better, and it's not even close. I think I'm playing too many by playing 4 though, for whatever that means for your wallet. For a long time I only played 2 and it still helped a lot. I think that budget substitutes for Bob are Ranger of Eos (not even bad to play alongside Bob), Sylvan Library alongside a bunch of lifegain cards, or Stoneforge Mystic. SFM has had issues with Kolaghan's Command lately, but there's probably an answer to that somewhere (I've always been a fan of Display of Dominance... this could be where it becomes playable), or alternatively you play BUG for Strix/Jace/Nissa... but given the price of blue duals that's an even more expensive route to go.

[Navsi]

Other two mana options include:

Night's Whisper
Full playset of Trackers and more ramp (Arbor, more DRS)
Elvish Visionary + Wirewood Symbiote
Spirit of the Labyrinth + Geier Reach Sanitarium possibly?

Not saying they're good but might be worth considering as options. I think Library is worth testing more. Hopefully Grixis dies down in the meta a bit and we can play more equipment and use SFM for card advantage.

[Brael]

If you're going the elf route, you might as well just play elves.

I think Sylvan Library alongside DRS, Ooze, Kitchen Finks, Courser, Baloth/Rhino, and Thragtusk has some potential.

[Ulysse95]

SFM has had issues with Kolaghan's Command lately, but there's probably an answer to that somewhere (I've always been a fan of Display of Dominance... this could be where it becomes playable)

In that way, Apostle's blessing or Faith's Shield are better IMO

[Brael]

In that way, Apostle's blessing or Faith's Shield are better IMO

Those don't kill Jace, Liliana, Back to Basics, and Omniscience.

That said, I still don't think it's good enough... but it will get there one day.

[Echelon]

If you're going the elf route, you might as well just play elves.

I think Sylvan Library alongside DRS, Ooze, Kitchen Finks, Courser, Baloth/Rhino, and Thragtusk has some potential.

It has :D. Drew 4 cards in 1 game once, vs. D&T. I love it when they StP Rhinos.

[Brael]

It has :D. Drew 4 cards in 1 game once, vs. D&T. I love it when they StP Rhinos.

4 cards is a bit weak, unless you mean 4 in one turn.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

4 cards is a bit weak, unless you mean 4 in one turn.4 cards is 16 life. I'm sorry if I can't get behind your statement. Seems strong to draw 4 extra cards in one game off Library.

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[Brael]

4 cards is 16 life. I'm sorry if I can't get behind your statement. Seems strong to draw 4 extra cards in one game off Library.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

We were referring to a situation where all your creatures gain life. In such a scenario, getting only 4 cards is definitely a bit weak.

In Echelons situation specifically, his Rhino at an StP, so that Rhino was good for 7 life, which is two cards off Library on it's own.

[Navsi]

Took the BUG list to Legacy Masters at UK Nationals today. 104 players. Went 5-1-1 overall, making top 8,which I am very happy with. Report and list:

2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Baleful Strix
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Fierce Empath
1 Eternal Witness

1 Distended Mindbender
1 Elder Deep-Fiend
1 Primeval Titan

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Sylvan Library

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay

Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Lost Legacy
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 To The Slaughter
1 Collective Brutality
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Pulse of Murasa
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Emrakul, the Promised End

Round 1 - Infect
Lose die roll. Game one I keep Deed, Zenith, Therapy, Jace, lands. Opponent makes Glistener Elf, Dazes therapy, Invigorates for 5, Dazes Zenith, Invigorates for 5 again.
Game two I kill a Glistener, he finds an Inkmoth. I make a Strix but it eats a Viridian Corrupter and I take 5 off an Invigorate. Leovold blocks Corrupter and goes to 1/1, I have a Deed for inkmoth and Strix for the follow up Inkmoth. I make a Tracker and close the game out.
Game three he makes a Glistener - I Therapy and see a slow hand without pump, but with a Needle. I flashback, he Brainstorms and hides the Needle, so I make Jace and fateseal it to the bottom. I trade resources for a bit and he dies to an Ashaya token and a Tracker.

1-0

Round 2 - Miracles
Game one I put some pressure on with Tracker but have to spend a lot of resources dealing with Jace. Eventually I am topdecking and he finds a Mentor and cantrips to kill me. I had the two towers and used them to recur Leovold repeatedly, but didn't cost him enough resource to stop him eventually getting Jace out - should maybe have been drawing more naturally - I had a Library - than just trying to stick Leovold.
Game two I grind a bit with Leovold and Strixes - I get to take a Jace with Therapy - and Lost Legacy his monastery mentors. I land a Nissa and start ticking her up, protecting her from his Snapcaster with a Deed and make Emrakul. It eats a Terminus but I get his turn and leave him with zero resources (brainstorm him into lands, shuffle his stuff away, etc). He cantrips into a Jace, but I have the To The Slaughter, and ultimate Nissa for lethal in the first turn of time.

1-0-1

Round three - Death and Taxes
He makes a Vial. I Therapy and miss, but get two Stoneforges on the flashback. I get Ported a bit. Eventually he has a Mom with a SoFI on it and only an STP in hand, to my Strix, 5/5 Ooze, Explorer. I screw up and sacrifice multiple creatures to emerge Mindbender, taking his STP, but by the time it is realized we are too far to back up. I end up Deeding the board either way, and beat down for lethal with a Mindbender and an Ashaya.
Game two he has a Stoneforge and all his equipment in hand - I take the Jitte with a therapy and am able to use Jace to bounce the Batterskull token. Jace dies to a Thalia on the crack back but buys enough time for me to sweep the board somehow - I think Deed. I Zenith Witness and recur Deed and force him to bounce batterskull, then Therapy it away. Elder Deep-Fiend, Tracker and Leovold finish the game.

2-0-1

Round four - Burn
He opens with Mountain, Lava Spike, which is definitely a declaration of intent. I get an Explorer and a Deathrite, and Decay his Goblin Guide. He has another one and a Swiftspear - I double block the Guide, using drs to gain some life. I Brutality some of his stuff away, make another Deathrite, and legend rule my own Leovold to get a body to gain more life with drs. Leovold beats down while I fateseal fireblasts away with Jace and I finish the game while on 2.
Game two I eat more Guide damage and some from a Swiftspear, Therapy double fireblasts out of his hand, make some Strix blocks and get it back with Pulse of Murasa. He Flame Rifts me back down to 7 but I'm able to find a Deathrite and start eating creatures to stabilize. Jace fateseal a mountain to the top of his deck and knowing he can't kill me, I get to tap out and make a Tracker and Ashaya to lethal next turn.

3-0-1

Round 5 - Czech Pile
We both make Leovold but he is able to get rid of mine and brainstorm with his Jace a couple times before my Strixes kill it. I jam Tracker and make some clues while he is tapped out but it eats a Push when he untaps. I start to stabilize at 11 but he burns me out with Bolts and DRS.
Game two I miss my third land drop and he makes Liliana LH into Jace into Tasigur. I stay alive with a couple Strixes and manage to find multiple Explorers before slamming Emrakul, but his Lili is ready to ultimate. My mindslaver turn kills Jace and Tasigur and gets Lili off ultimate, but I can't kill him from 14 through a Strix blocker and I get burned out by DRS and bolt + Kommand. This guy finished top of standings and undefeated in the Swiss, incidentally. I think maybe I should have attacked DRS into Emrakul to kill it rather than Tasigur, though he could rebuy it. Might have also been wise to swing Emmy into Liliana to kill her, even through Strix.

3-1-1

Round 6 - D&T
He makes Revoker on Deed, which I get to Decay, and I am able to kill his Mirren Crusader with Deed. He makes Recruiter into Flickerwisp and suits it up with Sword of Fire and Ice - I dont have removal for it and it can swing past my Strix and kill me.
Game two he has a slow hand with Mindcensor, Recruiter, Vial. I therapy the creatures. He draws Mirran Crusader but I kill it with a Deed. Then I Zenith Witness to deed his next stuff, and Pulse of Murasa Witness to Deed him a third time, then beat him down with Elder Deep Fiend (which is fantastic against Mirran Crusader by the way). He has a Gideon to my Nissa, but I can sweep everything but EDF and swing in to kill Gids.
Game 3 he makes Mirran and I choose to therapy his Mindcensor rather than immediately Deluge. He has a second port and puts me to 2 available mana and makes a Thalia HC, so I need to topdeck specifically a basic to sweep his board and stabilize at 8. O draw Island and kill all his stuff, then make Leovold to turn off his Ports and beat down for the kill with Leo and Ashaya.

4-1-1

Round 7 - Storm
Game one I get probed and have Explorer, Jace, EDF, and lands. He goes off on turn three and kills me.
Game two I make a Drs. He probes and therapies me, so I Surgical his probe since otherwise he will take it. The other option was Brainstorm - turns out he has another brainstorm in hand. I draw a Zenith and make Leovold. He Chain of Vapors it when I attack, but doesn't realise I haven't played a land yet and I can replay him. He durdles for a bit and Leovold and Deathrite kill him before he can go off.
Game 3 my 7 is Explorer Explorer Witness Fetch USea Surgical Surgical. He ponders off a Petal to find land turn one and I Surgical his Petal. I beat down a bit. He Ad Nauseams off two rits at the end of my turn. I have Clique, so when he stops at 5 I take Dark Ritual with Clique, Surgical his Cabal Ritual s and leave him with gas but no mana in hand. He has to Chain of Vapor Clique to not die next turn - I witness Surgical, take his Dark Ritual so the only mana sources in his deck are LED and lands, and he can't go off and dies.

5-1-1, 4th in standings.

Top 8 QF - Lands
Game one he makes Diamond, Waste, pass to start. I make some Explorers and a Tracker. End of my turn two he Crop Rotations for Stage, untaps, plays Depths with Stage activation up. I have Brutality to go to 22 and Jace to bounce after the swing but he has Punishing Fire to finish me off.
Game two I Therapy Exploration turn one and hit, but see Drop of Honey, Taiga, Maze, Depths, Stage, Stage. He topdecks Exploration and makes Marit Lake end-of-life my turn three. I dig a load with Tracker but can't find a Strix or a TTS or any other interaction, so I die with a Surgical and Lost Legacy in hand.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

We were referring to a situation where all your creatures gain life. In such a scenario, getting only 4 cards is definitely a bit weak.

In Echelons situation specifically, his Rhino at an StP, so that Rhino was good for 7 life, which is two cards off Library on it's own.I know, I've been following along. That means he paid 9 life for 4 cards (2 and 1/4 life each) unless he gained more life than that. It's my opinion that most games, drawing 1-2 extra cards combined with the filtering trigger is often enough to pull ahead in grindy games long enough to get a win, or drawing a couple extra cards off the first trigger in aggressive/combo matchups/late game gan either win the game or lose it, just depends on what relevant cards you draw. With that in mind, 4 cards is double what my average use of the card has been, granted it was in Junk/Shardless, but the grindy nature of the 3 decks make me believe that the function and rewards are similar enough to draw the conclusion I have.

I have learned that you should be patient with library, drawing extra cards only when not doing so results in only one of two situations: You losing 4 or more life for not doing so as long as doing so stops that specific loss of life or will help repair/replace what that initial action took, OR when it loses you the game for not doing so and doing so will stop you from losing.

There are pros that have written about library and their lack of self-control losing them games because of their inability to restrain themselves from drawing cards that don't really impact the game in a way worth the 4 life paid.

Library is probably pretty close to as difficult to play as Brainstorm is.

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[square_two]

Great job @Navsi! Interested to hear any more developments on that emerge bug list.

I took Nyx Fit to a Team Trio Constructed event where we had 5 rounds. Managed to go 3-2 personally which is the same as how our team went. Beat U/R Delver, Ruby Storm, and Lands. Lost to Sneak/Show and TES.

U/R Delver - opp either never chose to grab basics from vet trigger or did not realize he could. I announced the trigger each time and chose not to ask which was the case :wink: Really gives an advantage and I had time to setup Souls for blocks until Rector could do her thing. Dovescape for burn protection seals the deal very well.

Ruby Storm - game 1 I really thought I was hosed since I lacked early disruption. Then topdecked gas to allow me to turn 3 Dovescape. I play forest, pass. Opp plays Rite of Flame -> Ruby Medallion. I play Evo Leap, pass. Opp plays a Mountain, passes. I play Vet, Phyrexian Tower, sac Vet, cast Rector, Leap into Dovescape. Game 2 I had early disruption and a turn 4 Rector trigger again for Dovescape. We traded birds for a few turns until I found GSZ to make a ton, then Eternal Witness it back in hand to make more.

Lands - this version of nic fit has got to have the easiest time with lands. Game 1 they setup Exploration/Loam and try to GQ me out of the game while digging for Tabernacle on account of my 4 attacking spirits. I keep up land counts with vets until I finally find a Rector for Splendor, they realize they can't cycle/wasteland/GQ/stage/depths and die to spirits before they can dig up enough Groves to matter. Game 2 I Swords his early Tracker and then Therapy for K Grip (miss), Rector for Cruel Reality and take the Gamble out of his hand, leaving him with not much gas. He dies a few turns later to Cruel. He could have Crop Rotated for Bojuka Bog on the Rector trigger, but I had another Rector in hand.

Yay for opponents not understanding how Vet or Rector work.

Sneak/Show was pretty close. Won game 1 due to his Emrakul sacrificing my Rector and finding Splendor. Game 2 was a long drag and I had probably a dozen library turns but just wasn't finding much of anything after I'd disrupted him with Therapies. He lands a Sneak attack and has the Force if I'd been able to find a Rector. Game 3 I keep a poor hand and draw 2 extra Veterans but no further lands or Therapy. He has Echoing Truth for my Rector.

TES not much to say, didn't have great disruption early on game 1, and game 2 I keep a risky double Leyline of the Void, GSZ, 4 lands and proceed to draw 4 or 5 more lands before finding Rector...screwed up by sacrificing Rector in a way to give him a ton of doves + goblins. Probably should have waited to see how he goes off and then just grab Curse of Death's Hold to wipe his guys at end of turn. I should have waited to see if he Burning Wished, turns out he just had Empty in hand.

That makes for 18-12 record with the recent version of the deck, hovering around 60% though I know that 30 matches is pretty small sample size. I'm curious to try possibly 1-2 Secure the Wastes as an instant-speed token producer. Has some advantages over souls, some disadvantages but I think it could really catch some people off-guard. Otherwise might try the bug list I posted a page back once the walker changes take effect.

[Echelon]

@Navsi: Congrats!

On Library - after the 4 draws I was @17 life. 2 Rhinos ate an StP that game.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

We're your draws out of need to keep parity or were they on the luxurious side?

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[Echelon]

We're your draws out of need to keep parity or were they on the luxurious side?

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Mostly a luxury. Somehow I still managed to lose that game though. Missed a winning line I should have seen and paid for it.

[pettdan]

Awfully quiet in here, guys.

I'll take the opportunity to update you on my Cloudpost-Nic Fit experiments. I played Leshrac's Cloudpost-Nic Fit-hybrid in another local weekly event, this time going 3-0-1 and in the draw the opponent was at 1 life and totally behind on board, facing 26+ damage next turn.

Changes I've made since the last run was putting 2 Lingering Souls and 2 Collective Brutality in the maindeck, losing some Eldrazis, some Mox Diamonds and a Crop Rotation and adjusting the mana base. I tried a light Enlightened Tutor board but didn't need it in the matchups.

Wins were vs Grixis Delver (I think), Czech Pile and Miracles; the draw was vs Eldrazi, but it felt like a win in practice. He was facing Primeval Titan and Depths + Stage, he had chump blocked with all his creatures to stay at 1 life after trample damage was dealt, I had Toxic Deluge in hand and another couple of cards and he was pretty low on lands I think, not getting mana from Ancient Tomb.

Otherwise I felt like I was a bit lucky in these games, and they should be pretty good matchups so that helps too. Like the final win vs Grixis Delver was in turn 5 of time, with 5 spirit tokens flying over his Gurmag + Leovold + Deathrites and then Walking Ballista shooting him down from 4 to 0, letting him draw 4 cards but not being able to interact. Vs Miracles my starting hand was 2 Lingerings Souls which is of course very good vs that deck, also he played Counterbalance and I managed to play around it, with some luck involved too. And he didn't draw a Blood Moon or Back to Basics in game 2, which I was very exposed to (had to fetch duals to get mana for Lingering Souls). And in the final games vs Eldrazi he had a very slow start in g1 and played a Chalice @2 which let me use Crop Rotation to grow my Tracker huge, on the other hand he totally ran me over in g2.

So, so far that makes it 11-4-1 if I'm correct. It feels better than most versions I've played (well, may be luck or meta) since it can both win quickly with Depths, interact quickly with combo through Crop (and Mox Diamond accelerated Gaddock), gain supreme card advantage (well not compared to Brael's list, still) with Trackers (powered by Crop + Posts), alternative ramp engine in the Posts. Hard hitting with Titania + Primeval Titan, going wide with Lingering Souls, Ballista that is early interaction and late game bomb when coupled with post-mana. But it seems a lot of versions are working relatively well now, based on the recent posts, which should be a reflection of the fair (?) meta overall.


Previous posts on the topic:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31293-Primer-Nic-Fit&p=1023451&viewfull=1#post1023451

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31293-Primer-Nic-Fit&p=1022559&viewfull=1#post1022559

Edit: made a few small updates. And another couple, sorry!

[arj]

Awfully quiet in here, guys.

I'll take the opportunity to update you on my Cloudpost-Nic Fit experiments. I played Leshrac's Cloudpost-Nic Fit-hybrid in another local weekly event, this time going 3-0-1 and in the draw the opponent was at 1 life and totally behind on board, facing 26+ damage next turn.

Changes I've made since the last run was putting 2 Lingering Souls and 2 Collective Brutality in the maindeck, losing some Eldrazis, some Mox Diamonds and a Crop Rotation and adjusting the mana base. I tried a light Enlightened Tutor board but didn't need it in the matchups.

Wins were vs Grixis Delver (I think), Czech Pile and Miracles; the draw was vs Eldrazi, but it felt like a win in practice. He was facing Primeval Titan and Depths + Stage, he had chump blocked with all his creatures to stay at 1 life after trample damage was dealt, I had Toxic Deluge in hand and another couple of cards and he was pretty low on lands I think, not getting mana from Ancient Tomb.

Otherwise I felt like I was a bit lucky in these games, and they should be pretty good matchups so that helps too. Like the final win vs Grixis Delver was in turn 5 of time, with 5 spirit tokens flying over his Gurmag + Leovold + Deathrites and then Walking Ballista shooting him down from 4 to 0, letting him draw 4 cards but not being able to interact. Vs Miracles my starting hand was 2 Lingerings Souls which is of course very good vs that deck, also he played Counterbalance and I managed to play around it, with some luck involved too. And he didn't draw a Blood Moon or Back to Basics in game 2, which I was very exposed to (had to fetch duals to get mana for Lingering Souls). And in the final games vs Eldrazi he had a very slow start in g1 and played a Chalice @2 which let me use Crop Rotation to grow my Tracker huge, on the other hand he totally ran me over in g2.

So, so far that makes it 11-4-1 if I'm correct. It feels better than most versions I've played (well, may be luck or meta) since it can both win quickly with Depths, interact quickly with combo through Crop (and Mox Diamond accelerated Gaddock), gain supreme card advantage (well not compared to Brael's list, still) with Trackers (powered by Crop + Posts), alternative ramp engine in the Posts. Hard hitting with Titania + Primeval Titan, going wide with Lingering Souls, Ballista that is early interaction and late game bomb when coupled with post-mana. But it seems a lot of versions are working relatively well now, based on the recent posts, which should be a reflection of the fair (?) meta overall.


Previous posts on the topic:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31293-Primer-Nic-Fit&p=1023451&viewfull=1#post1023451

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31293-Primer-Nic-Fit&p=1022559&viewfull=1#post1022559

Edit: made a few small updates. And another couple, sorry!

Can you post your current list in full?

[pettdan]

Can you post your current list in full?

Well, I was trying to avoid for a couple of reasons but it's a reasonable request so here it is. Numbers in the parentheses are related to Leshrac's version [edit: or rather, one of them]. The sideboard is work in progress. I'm not sure this is a better approach but I'm trying some things. I messed up a bit when changing things around though, the plan was to have 4 Verdant Catacombs but turns out I had miscounted so the second Collective Brutality is over a 7th fetch which may or may not work out.

61 Cards Maindeck:

Lands (26):

4 Cloudpost
2 Glimmerpost (-1)
2 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
0 Eye of Ugin (-1)
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Verdant Catacombs (+0)
3 Windswept Heath (+1)
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
3 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains

Creatures (15):

1 Dryad Arbor
2 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Primeval Titan
0 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger (-1)
0 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (-1)
2 Walking Ballista (+2)

Spells (20):

1 Mox Diamond (-2)
3 Crop Rotation (-1)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Lingering Souls (+2)
2 Collective Brutality (+2)

Sideboard (15):

Anti-combo package, playing t1 hatebear is pretty strong:
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Phyrexian Revoker

Fair deck package:
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Plague
1 Choke

For stuff like burn, elves, depths to buy time. Very loose slot.
1 Glacial Chasm

Graveyard hate:
2 Surgical Extraction

Double up on key pieces, mostly Engineered Plague but also Thorn of Amethyst and Ethersworn Canonist. Loses some value since Mox Diamond lets you play a hatebear t1, so this may be better used as another hatebear or I need to add some impactful enchantment, I want something vs Elves and Food Chain:
1 Enlightened Tutor

Important stuff that I removed from the maindeck to bring in sideboard cards (Souls + Brutality). Very loose slots but they help with quick interaction vs combo and mana denial, working around Blood Moon etc:
1 Crop Rotation
1 Mox Diamond

[Brael]

Has anyone considered Shaper's Sanctuary?

One mana, doesn't stretch us to blue, and has an effect similar to Leovolds.

[fireiced]

Took the BUG list to Legacy Masters at UK Nationals today. 104 players. Went 5-1-1 overall, making top 8,which I am very happy with. Report and list:

2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Baleful Strix
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Fierce Empath
1 Eternal Witness

1 Distended Mindbender
1 Elder Deep-Fiend
1 Primeval Titan

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Sylvan Library

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay

Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Lost Legacy
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 To The Slaughter
1 Collective Brutality
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Pulse of Murasa
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Emrakul, the Promised End


First of all Navsi, congratulations! Feels great to see someone on the other side of the world succeeding with BUG Fit.

Couple of questions,
The list you posted runs 64 maindeck, feels like a lot :o
From your report the Fierce Empath with 2 emerging Eldrazis seem to do a lot of good work. Were there times where there was no emerge fodder and how you mitigate that type of situation when under tempo pressure?
How is the spicy Emrakul, the Promised End in the sideboard?

Seeing that you play new emmy, I have also experimented with Arianhod's tech of Traverse + Ishkanah. It feels great tbh and DRS can be annoying sometimes.

[Echelon]

Has anyone considered Shaper's Sanctuary?

One mana, doesn't stretch us to blue, and has an effect similar to Leovolds.

Does nothing on its own, though. It does replace creatures getting killed by spells/abilities, but does (effectively) not replace itself (and yes, this comes from the guy that runs multiple Mirri's Guile).

[Navsi]

First of all Navsi, congratulations! Feels great to see someone on the other side of the world succeeding with BUG Fit.

Couple of questions,
The list you posted runs 64 maindeck, feels like a lot :o
From your report the Fierce Empath with 2 emerging Eldrazis seem to do a lot of good work. Were there times where there was no emerge fodder and how you mitigate that type of situation when under tempo pressure?
How is the spicy Emrakul, the Promised End in the sideboard?

Seeing that you play new emmy, I have also experimented with Arianhod's tech of Traverse + Ishkanah. It feels great tbh and DRS can be annoying sometimes.

64 maindeck : I originally had a more reasonable 61, but was worried about lack of early interaction so jammed 2 Thoughtseize in. I felt the land count was a bit low for the extra nonlands then, so added a second Underground Sea. Only twice did I need to topdeck a specific card and have trouble finding it, once vs d&t (ripped basic Island to Deluge for the win) and once vs lands (needed Strix or TTS, didn't find it). I think the Thoughtseizes should probably be Cliques and add an extra Deathrite though.

I never had an issue with Emerge fodder. One game against Storm I decided I would rather have Leovold in play + drs mana up than Mindbender him, but I'm pretty sure either line was a kill anyway. More Cliques would help here too. Can always pitch to Brutality if it's not castable. Emerge guys were better every time than Primeval would have been. Primeval is probably getting cut, or at least at risk of. He got sided out every game except Miracles and Pile.

Emrakul was solid. He came in two games - Miracles and Pile. Vs. Miracles he ate a Terminus, but set up for a lethal Nissa ult. Vs. Pile I was super behind on board but he was still like a 5 for 1. He didn't quite stabilize but I think I could possibly have made it if I had played the Mindslaver correctly.

I do not like Traverse. I don't think it is an acceptable replacement for Zenith - not getting early game Explorers is a major issue - and I don't think it's utility late game makes up for it. With Empath, Zenith does everything I need it to anyway.

[fireiced]

64 maindeck : I originally had a more reasonable 61, but was worried about lack of early interaction so jammed 2 Thoughtseize in. I felt the land count was a bit low for the extra nonlands then, so added a second Underground Sea. Only twice did I need to topdeck a specific card and have trouble finding it, once vs d&t (ripped basic Island to Deluge for the win) and once vs lands (needed Strix or TTS, didn't find it). I think the Thoughtseizes should probably be Cliques and add an extra Deathrite though.

I never had an issue with Emerge fodder. One game against Storm I decided I would rather have Leovold in play + drs mana up than Mindbender him, but I'm pretty sure either line was a kill anyway. More Cliques would help here too. Can always pitch to Brutality if it's not castable. Emerge guys were better every time than Primeval would have been. Primeval is probably getting cut, or at least at risk of. He got sided out every game except Miracles and Pile.

Emrakul was solid. He came in two games - Miracles and Pile. Vs. Miracles he ate a Terminus, but set up for a lethal Nissa ult. Vs. Pile I was super behind on board but he was still like a 5 for 1. He didn't quite stabilize but I think I could possibly have made it if I had played the Mindslaver correctly.

I do not like Traverse. I don't think it is an acceptable replacement for Zenith - not getting early game Explorers is a major issue - and I don't think it's utility late game makes up for it. With Empath, Zenith does everything I need it to anyway.

- Traverse runs in tandem to support GSZ, not replacing GSZ. I like how Traverse circumvents Cage and Containment Priest effects :cool:

- I thought the previous Standard format where we Traverse for Newrakul for the win would work. Great to see that she is brought in to break the grindy matchups wide.

- I dislike Brutality, but that is just me not because card is bad. I like the idea of Empath searching for and providing emerge fodder body for the Emerge Eldrazis. Will seriously consider the Emerge fellas.

[Navsi]

- Traverse runs in tandem to support GSZ, not replacing GSZ. I like how Traverse circumvents Cage and Containment Priest effects :cool:

- I thought the previous Standard format where we Traverse for Newrakul for the win would work. Great to see that she is brought in to break the grindy matchups wide.

- I dislike Brutality, but that is just me not because card is bad. I like the idea of Empath searching for and providing emerge fodder body for the Emerge Eldrazis. Will seriously consider the Emerge fellas.

I haven't seen many Cages or Containment Priests recently. I can see your point about supplementing Zenith, but Traverses in those slots feels like a filler card which is there to smooth things out, but most of the slots in the deck right now are either answers, card advantage, threats, or multiple of the above - Traverse isn't really any of those. If I needed more cards and didnt want anything that actively solves some specific problem, Traverse might go in, but currently I am low on space rather than running more.

Elder Deep Fiend was excellent. Distended Mindbender was a lot less impressive. I am considering going to 2 EDF and 0 DMB.

Another creature I am considering putting in is Avatar of Woe. Might need to up the creature count a bit, but if I can get to cast it for 2 with any reliability it's a beast.

[Echelon]

10 creatures in graveyards is a lot to ask. You might be better off with Visara the Dreadful, although the manacost might be too prohibitive. Or Sheoldred, Whispering One. That thing generates a lot of value. But that 7 mana...

[Navsi]

I'm mainly looking for something I can Empath for that doesn't cost a flat 6+ mana. Avatar at least gets around that sometimes. I would go for Delve creatures, but they have pretty awkward anti-synergy with Emrakul. I guess I could run a Delve guy and just swap it out for Emrakul against control decks.

[Echelon]

It's unfortunate that you arent' in white. Karador, Ghost Chieftain could make an appearance here.

[fireiced]

Elder Deep Fiend was excellent. Distended Mindbender was a lot less impressive. I am considering going to 2 EDF and 0 DMB.

Another creature I am considering putting in is Avatar of Woe. Might need to up the creature count a bit, but if I can get to cast it for 2 with any reliability it's a beast.

I actually prefer Ishkanah. Would you also explain or maybe give examples where Deep Fiend's tap 4 shined? the UU cost can sometimes be a real hassle.


It's unfortunate that you arent' in white. Karador, Ghost Chieftain could make an appearance here.

I sort of miss white but the BUG Fit is very taxing on colour requirements. I am using Meren in this slot

[Navsi]

I actually prefer Ishkanah. Would you also explain or maybe give examples where Deep Fiend's tap 4 shined? the UU cost can sometimes be a real hassle.



I sort of miss white but the BUG Fit is very taxing on colour requirements. I am using Meren in this slot

The Flash was actually more important than the tap 4 to be honest. Six toughness is also pretty massive.

Stuff deep-fiend did:

- Flash in and eat a Mirran crusader while tapping down d&t's vial and lands

- Block Gurmag Anglers

- Fog an Inkmoth for a turn while I dig for removal

- Eat a Brimaz

- Turn up in response to removal on Tracker

- Survive a Deluge for 5 (to kill a Batterskull'd Flickerwisp) and swing for lethal the turn after.

I would indeed love white (mainly for Swords tbh) but the manabase is just too unstable.

[square_two]

For when you need a really meta nic fit deck:

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
4 Tireless Tracker

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Diabolic Intent
2 Sylvan Library
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Helm of Obedience
3 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Nissa, Vital Force

4 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
2 Phyrexian Tower

side:
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Lost Legacy
2 Obstinate Baloth
2 Choke
1 Fatal Push
1 Toxic Deluge
1 To the Slaughter

Went 3-2 in a mtgo league with something close to this last night. Working on tuning it a bit as it actually surprised me. Will come back later if more testing shows promise. Sideboard needs refinement. Open to suggestions. Loving the quad trackers and I've been missing them since being on Nyx for so long.

[NON]

For when you need a really meta nic fit deck:

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
4 Tireless Tracker

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Diabolic Intent
2 Sylvan Library
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Helm of Obedience
3 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Nissa, Vital Force

4 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
2 Phyrexian Tower

side:
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Lost Legacy
2 Obstinate Baloth
2 Choke
1 Fatal Push
1 Toxic Deluge
1 To the Slaughter

Went 3-2 in a mtgo league with something close to this last night. Working on tuning it a bit as it actually surprised me. Will come back later if more testing shows promise. Sideboard needs refinement. Open to suggestions. Loving the quad trackers and I've been missing them since being on Nyx for so long.

damn that's spicy. i wouldn't have thought to put helm+RIP into a nic fit shell, but 4+1 is still a lot of mana in legacy so i guess that makes sense.

do you find you're able to reliably get the combo out? is your midrange backup plan strong enough if that fails or are you just biding time with trackers? definitely a sweet-looking list.

[square_two]

damn that's spicy. i wouldn't have thought to put helm+RIP into a nic fit shell, but 4+1 is still a lot of mana in legacy so i guess that makes sense.

do you find you're able to reliably get the combo out? is your midrange backup plan strong enough if that fails or are you just biding time with trackers? definitely a sweet-looking list.

Last night I was running with only 1 Intent and it still didn't take too long to find the Helm when needed. Intent seemed great, was able to animate a land with Nissa for it one game, fetch into an Arbor for it another game. Won every game with the combo, although the D&T match I lost due to timing out might have been won by playing a second tracker and going ham (first had over 5 counters on it). I was just a couple turns away from Deeding his board and then comboing though. 4 trackers is imo a splendid thing to be doing since it is both pressure + card draw. Might try -1 Deed +1 Deluge main in order to avoid losing clues. What's also fun is that E Witness and Nissa are both able to buy back combo pieces, both of which can't be eaten by DRS. Nissa is further pressure if needed in that regard, although I ult'd her once last night while I had 2 fetches in hand and that dug me into both combo pieces against Bomberman.

[fireiced]

The Flash was actually more important than the tap 4 to be honest. Six toughness is also pretty massive.

Stuff deep-fiend did:

- Flash in and eat a Mirran crusader while tapping down d&t's vial and lands

- Block Gurmag Anglers

- Fog an Inkmoth for a turn while I dig for removal

- Eat a Brimaz

- Turn up in response to removal on Tracker

- Survive a Deluge for 5 (to kill a Batterskull'd Flickerwisp) and swing for lethal the turn after.

I would indeed love white (mainly for Swords tbh) but the manabase is just too unstable.

Below is the list I have been tinkering with

Maindeck (60)
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Ishkanah, Grafwidow
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan

1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Nissa, Vital Force

4 Brainstorm
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Traverse the Ulvenwald

4 Cabal Therapy

2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed

2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard (15)
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Divert
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Null Rod
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Dread of Night
1 Engineered Plague

There are definitely times where I cannot achieve delirium on time. RIP and GY replacement exile effects definitely hit quite hard but I really love the 10 cantrip core of Brainstorm/GSZ/Traverse which allowed me to drop to 20 lands and enjoy the less flood less screw which Arianhod was talking about. Ishkanah overperforms as did Grave Titan. The 4 life loss in board stalls was awesome. Cannot find anything to cut for Deep Fiend thou and I also want to cut 1 card for either Brutality or Hymn/TS.

[Navsi]

There are definitely times where I cannot achieve delirium on time. RIP and GY replacement exile effects definitely hit quite hard but I really love the 10 cantrip core of Brainstorm/GSZ/Traverse which allowed me to drop to 20 lands and enjoy the less flood less screw which Arianhod was talking about. Ishkanah overperforms as did Grave Titan. The 4 life loss in board stalls was awesome. Cannot find anything to cut for Deep Fiend thou and I also want to cut 1 card for either Brutality or Hymn/TS.

I would only run Deep Fiend with Fierce Empath. Without it you can't search him up and he's significantly less useful. Traverse is nice but I don't think it is right for EDF.

I think running less than 4 Zeniths in most builds just isn't right - I don't see any real times when Traverse is any better than Zenith, but there are lots of times when you want Zenith over Traverse, so I don't see why you wouldn't run 4 Zeniths and less Traverses.

I prefer Brutality over Push - mainly because it has text against combo, and helps our bad Burn matchup. There aren't that many big dumb creatures that die to push but not Brutality, and most of those have trouble with Baleful Strix.

[fireiced]

I would only run Deep Fiend with Fierce Empath. Without it you can't search him up and he's significantly less useful. Traverse is nice but I don't think it is right for EDF.

I think running less than 4 Zeniths in most builds just isn't right - I don't see any real times when Traverse is any better than Zenith, but there are lots of times when you want Zenith over Traverse, so I don't see why you wouldn't run 4 Zeniths and less Traverses.

I prefer Brutality over Push - mainly because it has text against combo, and helps our bad Burn matchup. There aren't that many big dumb creatures that die to push but not Brutality, and most of those have trouble with Baleful Strix.

It is a little meta slanted. Push is mostly for opposing DRS because DRS does not hit into strix. I agree that no Empath, Deep Friend is much weaker.

I did some self debate quite some time in pushing GSZ down to 3 for the longest time. Ultimately I caved in because running 20 lands require some increased number of cantrip or land tutor effects. Call it deck thinning for early game, late game to have more live topdecks.

Burn: I got a couple of Burn in meta, usually not much problems with them as Therapy and Swagtusk does a lot of work. Snapcaster and Divert in sb is very stupid against them. I want a 5th discard slot still and pending between Brutality or TS but have yet to find the space for it.

[Brael]

I agree with Navsi on Push in general, it's not all that great. I also run Brutality over Push.

20 lands feels far too low.

Navsi is doing it right at 24 (64 cards aside, but even that isn't that bad).

[Warden]

@Navsi: Congrats! That was an excellent write-up. Some savage beats too (the Storm matchup to float you into top 8 is just ridiculous).

With the meta kinda establishing itself, what are people's thoughts about Engineered Explosives? We're all running 3x colors. Deathrite can bump it to 4. It's supplemental sweeping against swarm strategies, nukes 0-2cc like butter, but also gets rid of planeswalkers and equipment. Is it too slow for the meta? Hell, if this deck is functioning at all, we have loads of time. I'm curious because I think I'd try some out if I take Nic Fit somewhere. Or am I being overly optimistic? Is EE in the same collection-purgatory as Vindicate?

[square_two]

@Navsi: Congrats! That was an excellent write-up. Some savage beats too (the Storm matchup to float you into top 8 is just ridiculous).

With the meta kinda establishing itself, what are people's thoughts about Engineered Explosives? We're all running 3x colors. Deathrite can bump it to 4. It's supplemental sweeping against swarm strategies, nukes 0-2cc like butter, but also gets rid of planeswalkers and equipment. Is it too slow for the meta? Hell, if this deck is functioning at all, we have loads of time. I'm curious because I think I'd try some out if I take Nic Fit somewhere. Or am I being overly optimistic? Is EE in the same collection-purgatory as Vindicate?

I've never really seen it suggested. It's indeed a cheaper wrath against tokens, if that is going to come up in storm matchups that want to empty the warrens on you. Hitting walkers is not much of a deal unless you want to use it in a 4c build to hit Jace. Seems like there are other cards to better handle Jace though. Decay hits the 3cmc walkers just fine.

Pernicious Deed is just such a good sweeper at clearing the entire board (apart from walkers). Getting rid of the opponent's Leo, Strix, AND Deathrite all in one go is a huge reason to keep Deed available as a general answer. The more example I think of, the better "X or less" gets over "X".

Edit: Having maindeck Therapies also further the arguments for Deed, since we can name and take multiple of the same cmc threat that our opp might have.

[Brael]

@Navsi: Congrats! That was an excellent write-up. Some savage beats too (the Storm matchup to float you into top 8 is just ridiculous).

With the meta kinda establishing itself, what are people's thoughts about Engineered Explosives? We're all running 3x colors. Deathrite can bump it to 4. It's supplemental sweeping against swarm strategies, nukes 0-2cc like butter, but also gets rid of planeswalkers and equipment. Is it too slow for the meta? Hell, if this deck is functioning at all, we have loads of time. I'm curious because I think I'd try some out if I take Nic Fit somewhere. Or am I being overly optimistic? Is EE in the same collection-purgatory as Vindicate?

I think Maelstrom Pulse accomplishes the same thing, while having additional utility, at a lower mana cost (on average). And then there's Deed.

[Echelon]

It's the "or less" part that does it. That's the difference between wiping half the board and the entire board.

[Fatal]

There is more hate against artifacts then enchantments nowadays. So we can be surprised by some K.command if we put EE eariler to blow it next turn.

Sidenote: EE works best with Glissa against Elves :-).

[Navsi]

There is more hate against artifacts then enchantments nowadays. So we can be surprised by some K.command if we put EE eariler to blow it next turn.

Sidenote: EE works best with Glissa against Elves :-).

To be fair, if you got the opportunity to untap with a 3 mana relatively non-interactive creature on the battlefield against Elves, you probably are already in a pretty solid position.

[Brael]

There is more hate against artifacts then enchantments nowadays. So we can be surprised by some K.command if we put EE eariler to blow it next turn.

Sidenote: EE works best with Glissa against Elves :-).

If you play EE early against Elves, one of two things will happen. They will either Reclamation Sage it, or they'll kill you before you get a turn to use it.

[Kobra_D]

Evening Nic Fit-ters(??)

I've had moderate success in my locals playing rhino fit for a while now, and although I enjoy the junk build a lot, part of the great thing with nic fit is the ability to explore options.

For the next few weeks I really want to play a different flavor of nic fit just to see what's out there (aside from nyx fit). So, if anyone has any cool ideas that they've wanted to try but never did let me know. I am not worried if it is super competitive, this is more of a scientific curiosity over anything else.

I have played Abzhan Pod in the past, I was on Rhino fit for a long while, and last night I took a BUG Delirium build boasting Emrakul, the promised end to a 3-1 finish at my locals.

Checking the front page for ideas I saw a tertiary section that included the cards crack the earth, and perilous research. So, if anyone has brewed on a RUG build before, I am definitely going to be toying around with that.

[square_two]

Evening Nic Fit-ters(??)

I've had moderate success in my locals playing rhino fit for a while now, and although I enjoy the junk build a lot, part of the great thing with nic fit is the ability to explore options.

For the next few weeks I really want to play a different flavor of nic fit just to see what's out there (aside from nyx fit). So, if anyone has any cool ideas that they've wanted to try but never did let me know. I am not worried if it is super competitive, this is more of a scientific curiosity over anything else.


New ideas you say? I've had a lot of random ideas lately but not much time to test everything. Still working through league #3 for the GB Helm Fit list I posted earlier, have made a few small tweaks to it. It's...humorous at least. Have had some busted plays, helmed a Sneak/Show player for 6 to take an Emrakul XD

Tokens/Words Fit

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Gaddock Teeg

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
4 Sylvan Library
2 Diabolic Intent
4 Intangible Virtue
4 Lingering Souls
2 Words of Wilding
3 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar // or one of these as Garruk Relentless
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion

3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
7 fetches
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Gavony Township

There could be something with the "Words of" + Sylvan Library combo. Library naturally helps us be more consistent. The Words enchantments do work with multiple Libraries on the board (I believe they should at least). Walkers seems like it would generally work with Words of Wilding since you can be "doing" something at the same time as tapping out to make tokens. Gideon, Ally of Zendikar particularly seems great, but Nissa can also buff the board.

I'm so so tempted to try a 1-2 of Muraganda Petroglyphs with token walkers, Words of Wilding, and Diabolic Intent. But that means losing Souls...Intangible might be enough. Tracker clues could mean that you instant-speed discard lock someone out of the game with Words of Waste, or at least for a few turns while you bash in. Some of these toy with the idea of running less Deed which could be a bad idea unless the swarm of tokens actually works out well enough. Intangible on the board means you could Toxic Deluge / Golgari Charm just fine in order to wipe TNN, Young Pyro, etc. Generally I think Tangible + a single Souls could actually end games though, and Gideon is a hassle for some decks anyway.

Some of this thinking started with me wanting to run 2 Gideons in Nyx Fit but not figuring out what to cut. (Also, lol at Intangible Virtue + Dovescape) Secure the Wastes + Muraganda/Intangible sounds fun as well but then I saw the Wilding combo with Library and figured it might be more impactful.

Edit: Gideon's dropped in price quite a bit online, making some of this testing quite a bit easier. Also have not seen much Elves lately which makes me slightly more open to throwing Deeds/Deluges in the side, or at least primarily maindecking Deluge. Deck like this is also completely backwards - the primary meta sweeper right now is Toxic Deluge which is super easy to snipe out of opp's hand with Therapy/Brutality. It's like switching roles lol.

[Echelon]

If you play EE early against Elves, one of two things will happen. They will either Reclamation Sage it, or they'll kill you before you get a turn to use it.

Since GSZ for Reclamation Sage costs the same as NO you, indeed, are dead.

Then there's option B: they slowroll you w/ a couple of dudes (which will still cause you to lose life at a very rapid pace).

And option C: They use a board roughly the size of option B's to start bouncing a Shaman of the Pack, ignoring any blockers you might have and forcing you into blowing up EE that way.


Evening Nic Fit-ters(??)

I've had moderate success in my locals playing rhino fit for a while now, and although I enjoy the junk build a lot, part of the great thing with nic fit is the ability to explore options.

For the next few weeks I really want to play a different flavor of nic fit just to see what's out there (aside from nyx fit). So, if anyone has any cool ideas that they've wanted to try but never did let me know. I am not worried if it is super competitive, this is more of a scientific curiosity over anything else.

I have played Abzhan Pod in the past, I was on Rhino fit for a long while, and last night I took a BUG Delirium build boasting Emrakul, the promised end to a 3-1 finish at my locals.

Checking the front page for ideas I saw a tertiary section that included the cards crack the earth, and perilous research. So, if anyone has brewed on a RUG build before, I am definitely going to be toying around with that.

Well... If it doesn't have to be too competitive and you mainly want to have fun - there is the infamous Summoner's Egg option, which I dubbed Timmy Nic Fit :laugh:. It's a Junk Fit list that wins through Emrakul, Iona, Elesh Norn and whatnot. If you want, I have a list lying around somewhere.

[Navsi]

Evening Nic Fit-ters(??)

I've had moderate success in my locals playing rhino fit for a while now, and although I enjoy the junk build a lot, part of the great thing with nic fit is the ability to explore options.

For the next few weeks I really want to play a different flavor of nic fit just to see what's out there (aside from nyx fit). So, if anyone has any cool ideas that they've wanted to try but never did let me know. I am not worried if it is super competitive, this is more of a scientific curiosity over anything else.

I have played Abzhan Pod in the past, I was on Rhino fit for a long while, and last night I took a BUG Delirium build boasting Emrakul, the promised end to a 3-1 finish at my locals.

Checking the front page for ideas I saw a tertiary section that included the cards crack the earth, and perilous research. So, if anyone has brewed on a RUG build before, I am definitely going to be toying around with that.

Brews I've put together recently:

Dino-Jund:

3 Tireless Tracker, 3 Huntmaster, 2 Regisaur Alpha, 2 Carnage Tyrant. Liliana LH to recur threats. Maybe a Recurring Nightmare to go with the token making creatures. Fill out the deck with removal/discard, pile of combo hate in the sideboard. Since we have more aggressive threats, possible to run Price of Progress as Lands/Pile hate.

Ranumap Abzan:

Ranumap Excavator, Knight of the Reliquary, Tireless Tracker. Possibly Azusa or Oracle of Mul Daya to accelerate with. Run a Ghost Quarter and Horizon Canopy for payoff. Scryb Ranger is sweet with KOTR too. Titania for a finisher, probably with Sylvan Safekeeper.

Prophet BUG:

Prophet of Kruphix is an absurd card. Flashing in Leovolds is particularly amusing. Possibly run some form of instant speed creature tutor to yank leovold out of your deck when needed - Summoner's Pact? Sylvan Safekeeper also seems pretty good to flash in, and with Titania for endstep 10+ power.

[Echelon]

RamunAbzan

C'mon man! Fixed that for you.

[Kobra_D]

Token Fit
This list seems sweet. I'm definitely going to think about this one a little more carefully. Although the first thought is usually Gideon when in comes to going wide, I really like the Sorin series of planeswalkers. Sure, the vampire tokens aren't as big as knights but they usually come with lifelink or flying which can be overwhelming. That and bitterblossom would be immediate considerations for a token based deck.

And even though the value of intagible virtue is obvious I would probably just play more discard spells and wrath effects. No matter what the game looks like you wipe their hand and then board, then keep going plus with planeswalkers to value out the game.

This might be a bit different from your original intention but I think it's worth considertation. I'll post a list when I've tinkered with it a bit more.


...Summoner's Egg...
How have I not seen this card sooner. I may come back and ask you for a list but I'm going to explore the possibilities with this first. *I think any list would be a sub-par sneak fit list but let's see where this goes.



Brews I've put together recently:
(a) Dino-Jund:
(b) Ranumap Abzan:
(c) Prophet BUG:


(a) I've also been keeping an eye on the dinosaurs (the most stated comment during this spoiler season), but I feel like I might be pidgeon-holed into wanting to play just play 4 ripjaw raptor and Olivia Voldaren. I feel this falls in the too cute to actually be good but I'm probably going to start there with a jund list

(b) I get those cards all work together, but that starts to feel a lot like a nic- fit/maverick hybrid. I'm not ready to go there yet.

(c) I can't believe that card fell off my radar after it was banned in edh. The one downside to Leovold is that he doesn't have flash like notion thief. At the very least I'm adding that back to my BUG list to work from there.

Thanks for the quick responses and ideas everyone. My lgs only does legacy on Wednesdays, so, I'll probably put up my next attempt at a list on Monday (probably token fit to start). If anyone else has cool ideas I'm happy to try them to the best of my ability.

[Brael]

Thanks for the quick responses and ideas everyone. My lgs only does legacy on Wednesdays, so, I'll probably put up my next attempt at a list on Monday (probably token fit to start). If anyone else has cool ideas I'm happy to try them to the best of my ability.

I've thought about a Naya list, Crack the Earth and Pyroclasm as sacrifice outlets alongside GSZ. Use white for the Ranger of Eos package, and add Dragonmaster Outcast to the 1 drops you can get as finishers. Alternatively, use Imperial Recruiter and play blue for Trinket Mage over White.

[Navsi]

I've thought about a Naya list, Crack the Earth and Pyroclasm as sacrifice outlets alongside GSZ. Use white for the Ranger of Eos package, and add Dragonmaster Outcast to the 1 drops you can get as finishers. Alternatively, use Imperial Recruiter and play blue for Trinket Mage over White.

The other problem is that your core package no longer includes discard as standard, which means you need a lot of hate bears to make combo lists not a complete whitewash.

[Brael]

The other problem is that your core package no longer includes discard as standard, which means you need a lot of hate bears to make combo lists not a complete whitewash.

Losing discard when moving away from a black core is an issue, but there are blue cores that can also interact. Perhaps instead of Naya, RUG would be better.

I think there's ways you can build such a list that it's not too soft to combo. Teeg for example with the ability to consistently ramp to 3 on T2 goes a long way.

[Ulysse95]

I've thought about a Naya list, Crack the Earth and Pyroclasm as sacrifice outlets alongside GSZ. Use white for the Ranger of Eos package, and add Dragonmaster Outcast to the 1 drops you can get as finishers. Alternatively, use Imperial Recruiter and play blue for Trinket Mage over White.

Don't forget crop rotation package as a sac outlet and options against some unfair decks

[ObligatoryReference]

Does anyone have an up-to-date Nyx Fit list? There was a brief discussion about it on reddit (specifically a version playing Dovescape and Sandwurm Convergence) and I kinda want to give it a shot.

[Ulysse95]

Does anyone have an up-to-date Nyx Fit list? There was a brief discussion about it on reddit (specifically a version playing Dovescape and Sandwurm Convergence) and I kinda want to give it a shot.

1 [R] Bayou
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
1 [R] Savannah
1 [R] Scrubland
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
2 [UNH] Swamp
2 [TE] Wasteland
3 [] Windswept Heath
4 [UNH] Forest
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [] Eternal Witness
1 [] Ramunap Excavator
4 [UD] Academy Rector
4 [] Veteran Explorer
1 [ISD] Curse of Death's Hold
1 [DIS] Dovescape
1 [] Overwhelming Splendor
1 [] Starfield of Nyx
2 [] Pernicious Deed
3 [] Evolutionary Leap
3 [TE] Mirri's Guile
2 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
2 [UL] Crop Rotation
2 [] Collective Brutality
2 [DKA] Lingering Souls
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 [] Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 [IN] Sterling Grove
SB: 2 [BNG] Spirit of the Labyrinth
SB: 1 [] Golgari Charm
SB: 1 [] Containment Priest
SB: 1 [] Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 2 [] Lost Legacy
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction

[Kobra_D]

Losing discard when moving away from a black core is an issue, but there are blue cores that can also interact. Perhaps instead of Naya, RUG would be better.

I think there's ways you can build such a list that it's not too soft to combo. Teeg for example with the ability to consistently ramp to 3 on T2 goes a long way.

Since I'm waiting to play a jund version with dinosaurs, I've been looking at Temur to brew. It's hard to solidify what the deck is trying to do but I think I might have something something to start with. The point is to remain at parity with your opponent, either through counterspells or bounce spells, while getting ahead on mana.

The parity apart from the land count can then lead to a big upheaval effect or just keep buying cards back with eternal witness, and venser. Something is not quite right but I think the directions is pretty sweet (it is kind of a port of the modern deck eternal command).


//Creatures
4 Veteren Explorer
4 Eternal Witness
3 Venser, Shaper Savant
4 Sakura Tribe Elder

//Instant./Sorceries
4 Punishing Fire
4 Crack the Earth
4 Perilous Research
4 Force of Will
2 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
1 Cyclonic Rift
2 Cryptic Command

//Lands
3 Forest
3 Island
1 Mountain
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforest


The best non-black sac outlets that I've found so far are:

//G
Life's Legacy

//R
infernal plunge
fiery conclusion
collateral damage

//W
Angelic Purge
Extricator of Sin

//U
silumgar sorcerer
sidisi's faithful

//GW
Altar of Bone
Dromoka's command
//(fight+ utility)


A lot of them are not coming down on turn 2 but that's the price we pay.

Also, @Navsi, I was a bit curious about your BUG list. What lead you to the top end in the maindeck of distended mindbreaker, elder deep fiend, and prime time? Were you bringing them for specific match ups or just trying out something different?

I apologize if you have discussed this already, I didn't find it in my cursory glance over the past few pages.

[square_two]

(list)

How has Ramunap been in Nyx Fit? Seems like an odd addition.

I'm trying to find a way to fit in Gideon, Ally of Zendikar but not sure what to cut for it. Adds another angle, increases souls token performance. Maybe that direction belongs back with other experimental list I posted.

Our lists are pretty close.

1 Cavern of Souls
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
4 Academy Rector

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
3 Evolutionary Leap
2 Sylvan Library
4 Lingering Souls
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Dovescape
1 Cruel Reality
1 Overwhelming Splendor
3 Green Sun's Zenith

side:
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Thoughtseize
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Lost Legacy
1 To the Slaughter
1 Carpet of Flowers

[Ulysse95]

How has Ramunap been in Nyx Fit? Seems like an odd addition.

I'm trying to find a way to fit in Gideon, Ally of Zendikar but not sure what to cut for it. Adds another angle, increases souls token performance. Maybe that direction belongs back with other experimental list I posted.

Our lists are pretty close.

1 Cavern of Souls
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
4 Academy Rector

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
3 Evolutionary Leap
2 Sylvan Library
4 Lingering Souls
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Dovescape
1 Cruel Reality
1 Overwhelming Splendor
3 Green Sun's Zenith

side:
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Thoughtseize
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Lost Legacy
1 To the Slaughter
1 Carpet of Flowers


Actually he was really good, along with crop package.
I often wanted to zenith him.
He's a house with dryad, recurring for chump block and leap each turn. I never used it in recuring wasteland I think, but it's possible too.
At minimum, it's a 2 for one, 3 for 1 if you can leap him (get him, landrop from graveyard against the opponnent removal, leap him in answer if possible (with the land you just get when mana short ^^ )

I think the big houses we have are enought to not put in Cruel reality, when I tried it, it often felt like overkill.

I really enjoyed the crop package ^^
Crop can do what stp do in most of the cases in my opinion (remove Grisou/Marit, even Emrakul, even Thalia with Karakas, go fetch tower sac outlet when drs is tapped, or a wasteland to remove his non basic greensource he kept.. I even get to 0 damage from a price of progress lol)

But I would think about the board Sigarda!! ;)

What do you think about that?

Edit: also I teste and found the 1 random cavern a bit awkward, like too situationnal... I don't know, I wasn't fan, but not sur why..

[square_two]

Crop can do what stp do in most of the cases in my opinion (remove Grisou/Marit, even Emrakul, even Thalia with Karakas, go fetch tower sac outlet when drs is tapped, or a wasteland to remove his non basic greensource he kept.. I even get to 0 damage from a price of progress lol)

But I would think about the board Sigarda!! ;)

What do you think about that?

Edit: also I teste and found the 1 random cavern a bit awkward, like too situationnal... I don't know, I wasn't fan, but not sur why..

Doh I didn't see the Crop Rotations. That makes more sense. I'll have to give it some thinking...haven't had too much of an issue with combo to really want that package but I'll try to keep it in mind.

Sigarda has been very fine in the side. You are usually free to focus on the combo game 1, and she comes in against expected graveyard hate and/or Jace. Navsi prefers Titania I believe as a finisher - you might try her if you are running Crop Rotation. She's definitely a faster clock than Sigarda when you have access to Rotations. I've been tempted to cut Cruel for either Gideon or Secure the Wastes and it is a close call. Gideon is nice against Jace...but Cruel is just such a quick clock against most decks and I've been really satisfied with it so far.

I've been doubting the inclusion of cavern as well. Makes for some potentially awkward game 2/3 hands when you board more heavily into black spells like early Thoughtseize or Lost Legacy. I've been considering cutting it for perhaps a 2nd Savannah. Nice that it helps cast all our creatures, but so does a Savannah :/

[ObligatoryReference]

Thanks for the lists!


(list)

So you don't actually play Starfield? What's your plan if they take out one of your lock pieces?

[square_two]

Thanks for the lists!



So you don't actually play Starfield? What's your plan if they take out one of your lock pieces?

IMO there's not enough need to justify it. There is a real risk in having it stuck in hand, and I found extremely few cases where I wanted to tutor it with Rector.

Game 1 most decks just don't have the capability to remove a high cmc enchantment. Against Elves w/ Rec Sage you are most likely getting out Splendor first which prevents that, even Curse most likely gives you the time to find a Deed and stabilize. Against UW control lists with maindeck Council's Judgment, you either get Dovescape to prevent that, or they have a limited amount of time under Cruel Reality which forces them to exhaust resources while you can continue on uninterrupted. Games 2 and 3, you have Sigarda/fatty backup plan, Eternal Witness, better knowledge of what to Therapy. 4 Therapy 2 Brutality are further tools at disrupting hate.

The first Rector trigger is usually game anyway. Starfield doing nothing for a full turn is a huge knock against it - if you are free for a turn and can get a trigger off, why aren't you getting Cruel, Dove, Sandwurm, whatever? Starfield is further graveyard dependency when I already have seen decks bring in that sort of hate.

[ObligatoryReference]

IMO there's not enough need to justify it. There is a real risk in having it stuck in hand, and I found extremely few cases where I wanted to tutor it with Rector.

Game 1 most decks just don't have the capability to remove a high cmc enchantment. Against Elves w/ Rec Sage you are most likely getting out Splendor first which prevents that, even Curse most likely gives you the time to find a Deed and stabilize. Against UW control lists with maindeck Council's Judgment, you either get Dovescape to prevent that, or they have a limited amount of time under Cruel Reality which forces them to exhaust resources while you can continue on uninterrupted. Games 2 and 3, you have Sigarda/fatty backup plan, Eternal Witness, better knowledge of what to Therapy. 4 Therapy 2 Brutality are further tools at disrupting hate.

The first Rector trigger is usually game anyway. Starfield doing nothing for a full turn is a huge knock against it - if you are free for a turn and can get a trigger off, why aren't you getting Cruel, Dove, Sandwurm, whatever? Starfield is further graveyard dependency when I already have seen decks bring in that sort of hate.

Fair enough. Thanks for the advice!

[Brael]

The best non-black sac outlets that I've found so far are:


Crop Rotation for Phyrexian Tower (and Tower itself) and Berserk are both options, though Berserk is a bit slow. Metamorphosis is another option, and then there's always Perilous Research and Goblin Bombardment in non green.

Metamorphosis is an interesting one. It maintains the curve into 5 mana on T2 that Veteran Explorer gives us. It can't be dumped into a GSZ for 4, but it also opens up some possibilities. It's a prime target for counter magic though, but if the card you're casting off of it can't be countered, you're likely in good shape.

Maybe curving T1 Veteran Explorer into T2 Metamorphosis to cast Surrak Dragonclaw would work. At least in fair matchups.

[Echelon]

How have I not seen this card sooner. I may come back and ask you for a list but I'm going to explore the possibilities with this first. *I think any list would be a sub-par sneak fit list but let's see where this goes.

All of those lists really are just poor Sneak & Show lists, you know that right?

[kombatkiwi]

The problem I find with Crack the Earth / Smallpox as sac outlets is:
a) If you are sacrificing your own lands then playing your expensive spells is going to be difficult
b) You probably should still be playing expensive spells though otherwise why bother with Veteran Explorer
c) Whats the point in making your opponent sacrifice permanents if you are giving your opponent permanents with Explorer?
d) Yes, it is strong if your opponent has 0 basics in their deck and you destroy Explorer with Crack the Earth, but if the opponent has no basics in their deck and you get an Explorer trigger by any means aren't you far enough ahead anyway?


As far as builds I would like to try, I think the Ballista/Delirium list was pretty interesting and I wonder if you can fit Glissa and Verdurous Gearhulk into it somehow

[Kobra_D]

All of those lists really are just poor Sneak & Show lists, you know that right?

More or less the sentiment that I came to immediately in that post. There are much better ways to cheat in fatties in the legacy format, but, but, it's an egg. And we have dinosaurs now. Every flavor bone in your body should be.... Ok fine, I cannot even finish that post. I concede that the card has that cool looking factor to it and does literally nothing for what we want.


The problem I find with Crack the Earth / Smallpox as sac outlets is:
a) If you are sacrificing your own lands then playing your expensive spells is going to be difficult
b) You probably should still be playing expensive spells though otherwise why bother with Veteran Explorer
c) Whats the point in making your opponent sacrifice permanents if you are giving your opponent permanents with Explorer?
d) Yes, it is strong if your opponent has 0 basics in their deck and you destroy Explorer with Crack the Earth, but if the opponent has no basics in their deck and you get an Explorer trigger by any means aren't you far enough ahead anyway?


As far as builds I would like to try, I think the Ballista/Delirium list was pretty interesting and I wonder if you can fit Glissa and Verdurous Gearhulk into it somehow

a) Crack the earth is probably not right, it was just on the front page so that's the first one I noticed. Perilous Research seems like some value in non-b builds.
b) I'm not exactly sure what you mean by expensive spells. 4/5 mana spent per turn, yes. Ramping into 18 drops, I'd probably disagree. I wouldn't say that our spells are expensive (terrastadon is expensive imo), but I would say that it is a greedy deck. By that I mean, Tireless tracker by itself is not a good card, but making land drops each turn, cracking 1/2 clues a turn, and playing the spells we draw off of the clues in the same turn is a phenomenal engine.
c) When I first saw crack the earth I immediately thought of innocent blood. But these cards are not the same. I recognize that, I just don't want to leave any stone unturned (most people may have been through this in the past and already recognize it's unplayability, I have enough time to explore a little further).
d) The basic idea on crack the earth that I started with. They have 1 land in play, I sac vet explorer. If they have basics, then they would go +2 but now only go +1. Sure we go -1 in the creature department but our use of the mana in the long run is much more effective.
They don't have basics. We go +2. Again, loss on the board itself but we develop ourselves by stepping ahead of the traditional mana development curve (1 per turn). They have a creature and a land and sac the creature. It's now innocent blood. And sure, we can sub-divide further into what if they have aether vial and a land, what if they cast lotus petal... The card simply allows us to develop and untap on turn 3 with 4 mana or so, where our opponent untaps with 3. Small, incremental value, what I've more or less internalized as the mantra of nic fit. Again, I'm not fighting for crack the earth itself in any list, but I do think I am looking and approaching these cards from different perspectives.

I've had Glissa in the board since I saw it reprinted in FtV:lore just to deal with Eldrazi (she is soo good against eldrazi). Gearhulk is sweet, but I definitely would want it to go wide more than tall.

[Brael]

What if the answer to the primary sac card is to use more Crop Rotations? 4 Rotation+1 Tower gives you 5 sac outlets on it's own. That alongside some Perilous Research could be enough.

But that goes back to the primary question which is that I'm not quite sure what blue offers.

[fireiced]

Ok so after about 180 odd games both online and on paper, I think I am quite close in getting a BUG Fit suited to the current meta game and my own playstyle. Below are some statistics

Grixis Delver: 14 games
On Play: 7 wins; 1 loss
On Draw: 4 wins; 2 loss

Other Delver Decks: 8 games
On Play: 1 win; 0 loss
On Draw: 6 wins; 1 loss

Show and Tell variants: 22 games
On Play: 4 wins; 6 loss
On Draw: 1 win; 11 loss

4C Leovold: 12 games
On Play: 3 wins; 1 loss
On Draw: 5 wins; 3 loss

Miracles: 17 games
On Play: 6 wins; 3 loss
On Draw: 4 wins; 4 loss

ANT: 6 games
On Play: 2 wins; 1 loss
On Draw: 3 wins; 0 loss

TES: 2 games
On Play: N/A
On Draw: 0 win; 2 loss

BUG Variants (Reid Duke/Food Chain/Aluren): 14 games
On Play: 6 wins; 2 loss
On Draw: 1 win; 5 loss (note says all 5 losses were to Food Chain or Aluren combo off)

Blade Control: 10 games
On Play: 4 wins; 0 loss
On Draw: 6 wins; 0 loss

Jund/Maverick/Team Italia: 7 games
On Play: 4 wins; 0 loss
On Draw: 1 win; 2 loss

Chalice Stompy: 15 games
On Play: 8 wins; 0 loss
On Draw: 3 wins; 4 loss

DnT: 8 games
On Play: 3 wins; 1 loss
On Draw: 2 wins; 2 loss

Elf: 3 games
On Play: 1 win; 0 loss
On Draw: 1 win; 1 loss

Other Decks: 34 games
On Play: 10 wins; 8 loss
On Draw: 11 wins; 5 loss

Some thoughts, playing 20 lands with 4 Brainstorm, 3 Traverse and 3 GSZ will need me to play the early game with mana construction in mind. Means in land light hands, Traverse is quickly fired to get the basic to stabalise the mana or Brainstorming to quickly find lands instead of holding it back for use in mid game. The deck can grind really really well, Ishkanah enables chumping against Emrakul beats and prolonging the game really well plus being a win condition herself. Looping Ishkanah is via 2 towers is so much better than looping any other creatures we run.

Edit: All wins vs fair decks where due to Nissa (both nissas) and JTMS providing stupid amount of card advantage and tempo pressure.
A total underdog against SnT but I guess I can accept having 1 poor matchup for this variant of BUG Fit.
Ironically vs ANT, I did very well. TES however just ran through me :tongue:

[arj]

Yeah was testing a bug list as well this weekend. Was 4-0 against D&T, infect, eldrazi and 4c leo. It's really strong!

[square_two]

Welp.

Now we have to explain Vet trigger to the point of making sure the opponent is choosing NOT to grab basics if they don't do anything.

Policy changes (https://blogs.magicjudges.org/telliott/2017/09/25/policy-changes-for-ixalan/).

Relevant text:



Recently, there’s been some question about what we expect players to do when they play a spell or ability – most commonly Path to Exile, but Ghost Quarter comes up, too – and their opponent doesn’t do an optional part of the instruction. Since it’s optional, that’s theoretically a legal result, even if they didn’t realize that they had the option. Given the preponderance of textless and foreign cards, and communication rules that don’t require you to explain everything a card does (because that way lies madness), there was incentive for scurvy dogs to not bring up those parts of a card.

Revised communication rules have added text to preempt this. Now, if a spell or ability you play gives an opponent a choice, you must get confirmation from them that they aren’t doing the optional thing. You still don’t have to remind them while they decide if they want to respond, but once it resolves and the time comes, no making assumptions...


I went to a major event a couple weekends ago and had two opponents not understand the trigger...I likely would have lost one of those matches had they had it spelled out for them like this. Now we have to actually ask them why they aren't getting basics / confirm that they are choosing not to. Ridiculous.

(Edit: and I play with English cards against English-speaking opponents)

[Brael]

I don't see a problem with this.

[MrIggins]

Yeah I have no issue with cards having to be played as written... I always announced my triggers as "Vet trigger, would you like to search?" when I pick up my deck so this does not affect me at all.

[Brael]

It's not even about being played as written to me, I just think it's lame to try and get your opponent to miss optional triggers. I prefer to win or lose through good play, not through angle shooting, even in competitive environments.

[crowe_1]

Wouldn't find it in Nic Fit, but I wonder how this would work with something like Tabernacle. If they missed their trigger, would you still be obligated to ask them if they intended to not just pay 1?

[Brael]

Wouldn't find it in Nic Fit, but I wonder how this would work with something like Tabernacle. If they missed their trigger, would you still be obligated to ask them if they intended to not just pay 1?

I'm not sure, but it's something I ask my opponents regardless.

[Kobra_D]

What if the answer to the primary sac card is to use more Crop Rotations? 4 Rotation+1 Tower gives you 5 sac outlets on it's own. That alongside some Perilous Research could be enough.

But that goes back to the primary question which is that I'm not quite sure what blue offers.

I was initially opposed to the crop rotation package since +BB acts more or less as ashnod's altar in the deck. Although, I do recognize that it can provide a sac outlet while not requiring any additional colors. I'm not really sure what blue provides either. Blue is nice as it does provide cantrips and counter spells which are nice but there is nothing overwhelming in RUG to want to play this deck immediately over BUG or Junk.

However, there is the super spice factor (which for bringing casually to locals is a plus in my book). I'm currently in a super fair meta that can allow me to try these more obscure builds. I have some credit at my locals that losing a couple of weeks does not put me at an actual loss. And most importantly, scientific curiosity. Nic-Fit as it has been defined more or less from the beginning it seems is the combination of Vet. Explorer + Cabal Therapy. Can we do differently? It seems people have played with this question in the past, and honestly I don't think this is going to work too well either. But Giving the other factors I am willing to try this out.

The main deck that I am going to bring with me Wednesday (I think):

//Creatures
4 Veteren Explorer
4 Eternal Witness
2 Venser
2 Thragtusk

//Instants & Sorceries
3 Punishing Fire
4 Collateral Damage
4 Perilous Research
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Capsize
2 price of progress

//Lands
3 Forest
3 Island
2 Mountain
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforest

[Plm]

I love that capsize, so much fun times :smile:

in rug fit I would play pyroclasm as a sac outlet, it kills so much.
Also stormbraith dragon is a nice finisher in red fit.

currently playing rector fit with dovescape, curse of death's hold and overwhelming humility as my targets.

[Kobra_D]

I love that capsize, so much fun times :smile:

in rug fit I would play pyroclasm as a sac outlet, it kills so much.
Also stormbraith dragon is a nice finisher in red fit.

currently playing rector fit with dovescape, curse of death's hold and overwhelming humility as my targets.

I currently have 2 pyroclasms in the side. I went with collateral damage as it is a sac outlet + lightning bolt and the deck may just need to burn an opponent out for the win. If I can get the deck running smoothly I hope that I can cyclonic rift early to stabilize and then buy it back with e. wit and just keep going big plays afterwards. same idea for capsize and the like.

Stormbreath might actually be a good card with the number of StP I expect to face. I have also been considering kitchen finks if Thragtusk proves to take too long to help stabilize.

How is rector fit/ is obtaining a playset of academy rectors actually worth it? The deck looks kind of cool, but rector is more expensive that I would like to pay for a card that I may only play twice.

[Brael]

I was initially opposed to the crop rotation package since +BB acts more or less as ashnod's altar in the deck. Although, I do recognize that it can provide a sac outlet while not requiring any additional colors. I'm not really sure what blue provides either. Blue is nice as it does provide cantrips and counter spells which are nice but there is nothing overwhelming in RUG to want to play this deck immediately over BUG or Junk.

However, there is the super spice factor (which for bringing casually to locals is a plus in my book). I'm currently in a super fair meta that can allow me to try these more obscure builds. I have some credit at my locals that losing a couple of weeks does not put me at an actual loss. And most importantly, scientific curiosity. Nic-Fit as it has been defined more or less from the beginning it seems is the combination of Vet. Explorer + Cabal Therapy. Can we do differently? It seems people have played with this question in the past, and honestly I don't think this is going to work too well either. But Giving the other factors I am willing to try this out.

The main deck that I am going to bring with me Wednesday (I think):

//Creatures
4 Veteren Explorer
4 Eternal Witness
2 Venser
2 Thragtusk

//Instants & Sorceries
3 Punishing Fire
4 Collateral Damage
4 Perilous Research
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Capsize
2 price of progress

//Lands
3 Forest
3 Island
2 Mountain
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforest


I've been brewing pretty heavily with Paradoxical Outcome lately. I think it's one of the blue payoffs given the mana in this deck. Plays excellent with Thragtusk, Ranger of Eos, Imperial Recruiter, Trinket Mage, Stoneforge Mystic, Fierce Empath, Planeswalkers, Baleful Strix, Obstinate Baloth, Sower of Temptation, Shriekmaw, Clique, Deranged Hermit, Creature Nissa, Reveillark, Huntmaster of the Fells, Venser, etc...

I don't have a Nic Fit build yet but I think there's something there. The card even works very well with clue tokens since it gives us multiple ways to hold mana up and use it productively at the end of the opponents turn.

[Amulet of the HangingLamp]

Some thoughts, playing 20 lands with 4 Brainstorm, 3 Traverse and 3 GSZ will need me to play the early game with mana construction in mind. Means in land light hands, Traverse is quickly fired to get the basic to stabalise the mana or Brainstorming to quickly find lands instead of holding it back for use in mid game. The deck can grind really really well, Ishkanah enables chumping against Emrakul beats and prolonging the game really well plus being a win condition herself. Looping Ishkanah is via 2 towers is so much better than looping any other creatures we run.

Edit: All wins vs fair decks where due to Nissa (both nissas) and JTMS providing stupid amount of card advantage and tempo pressure.
A total underdog against SnT but I guess I can accept having 1 poor matchup for this variant of BUG Fit.
Ironically vs ANT, I did very well. TES however just ran through me :tongue:



Would love to see your decklist. I have played a few BUG variants and like trying new builds.

[Warden]

I was initially opposed to the crop rotation package since +BB acts more or less as ashnod's altar in the deck. Although, I do recognize that it can provide a sac outlet while not requiring any additional colors. I'm not really sure what blue provides either. Blue is nice as it does provide cantrips and counter spells which are nice but there is nothing overwhelming in RUG to want to play this deck immediately over BUG or Junk.

However, there is the super spice factor (which for bringing casually to locals is a plus in my book). I'm currently in a super fair meta that can allow me to try these more obscure builds. I have some credit at my locals that losing a couple of weeks does not put me at an actual loss. And most importantly, scientific curiosity. Nic-Fit as it has been defined more or less from the beginning it seems is the combination of Vet. Explorer + Cabal Therapy. Can we do differently? It seems people have played with this question in the past, and honestly I don't think this is going to work too well either. But Giving the other factors I am willing to try this out.

The main deck that I am going to bring with me Wednesday (I think):

//Creatures
4 Veteren Explorer
4 Eternal Witness
2 Venser
2 Thragtusk

//Instants & Sorceries
3 Punishing Fire
4 Collateral Damage
4 Perilous Research
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Capsize
2 price of progress

//Lands
3 Forest
3 Island
2 Mountain
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforest


There are a lot of really cool ideas but I can't help but feel something big is missing. Since the meta is self-described as "super fair", I think you should find more value in some of the spells you play. You're banking on sacrificing permanents, but then what are you doing once you have mana? Your wincons are 2 thragtusk and pfires. If anything gets in the way of those cards I see this deck having a hard time winning (and a long time winning against an open table). To counteract this, I recommend reducing Eternal Witnesses in favor of Trackers (value --> better value). Tracker can be aggressive, draw cards, and at worst -- makes clues for you to pop off to your spells. I'd also play additional bombs to compliment Thragtusk. Either go bigger (titans, thundermaw, etc) or more annoying like TNN and/or Jace. How well this list handles a quick swarm or non-burnable creature is also important (see: no Deed).

[fireiced]

Wouldn't find it in Nic Fit, but I wonder how this would work with something like Tabernacle. If they missed their trigger, would you still be obligated to ask them if they intended to not just pay 1?

Tabernacle is a corner case card. It makes the creatures in play gain that ability. So you opponent, who is likely the controller of his creatures, own the triggered ability. If missed in Comp REL, he will get an upgrade to GPE - Missed Trigger as it is detrimental to him :p

Edit: There was previously a discussion on this, link here -> http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25459-The-Tabernacle-at-Pendrell-Vale-and-forgotten-triggers


Would love to see your decklist. I have played a few BUG variants and like trying new builds.

I posted it quite a few threads back -> http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31293-Primer-Nic-Fit&p=1024436&viewfull=1#post1024436
The sideboard keeps moving but the below are mostly the same in my games i played for the past 3 weeks with BUG Fit

1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Dread of Night
1 Engineered Plague

[Echelon]

I was initially opposed to the crop rotation package since +BB acts more or less as ashnod's altar in the deck. Although, I do recognize that it can provide a sac outlet while not requiring any additional colors. I'm not really sure what blue provides either. Blue is nice as it does provide cantrips and counter spells which are nice but there is nothing overwhelming in RUG to want to play this deck immediately over BUG or Junk.

However, there is the super spice factor (which for bringing casually to locals is a plus in my book). I'm currently in a super fair meta that can allow me to try these more obscure builds. I have some credit at my locals that losing a couple of weeks does not put me at an actual loss. And most importantly, scientific curiosity. Nic-Fit as it has been defined more or less from the beginning it seems is the combination of Vet. Explorer + Cabal Therapy. Can we do differently? It seems people have played with this question in the past, and honestly I don't think this is going to work too well either. But Giving the other factors I am willing to try this out.

The main deck that I am going to bring with me Wednesday (I think):

//Creatures
4 Veteren Explorer
4 Eternal Witness
2 Venser
2 Thragtusk

//Instants & Sorceries
3 Punishing Fire
4 Collateral Damage
4 Perilous Research
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Capsize
2 price of progress

//Lands
3 Forest
3 Island
2 Mountain
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforest


With that many sacrifice effects I'd run at least 1 Dryad Arbor.

Also, outside of FoW (or doing nothing for a turn b/c you keep your mana open for Counterspell), how do you plan to interact w/ combo? You just screwed yourself out of discard, Lost Legacy and hatebears.

We run Cabal Therapy b/c it actually does something to mess with your opponents' gameplan (unlike that pseudo-Bolt or the Draw 2) and is an allround good card. Seriously, man.

[Ulysse95]

It's not even about being played as written to me, I just think it's lame to try and get your opponent to miss optional triggers. I prefer to win or lose through good play, not through angle shooting, even in competitive environments.

My rector dies: trigger. Would you like to remove it with your DRS in answer to abort it?

lol

[Ulysse95]

I was initially opposed to the crop rotation package since +BB acts more or less as ashnod's altar in the deck. Although, I do recognize that it can provide a sac outlet while not requiring any additional colors. I'm not really sure what blue provides either. Blue is nice as it does provide cantrips and counter spells which are nice but there is nothing overwhelming in RUG to want to play this deck immediately over BUG or Junk.

However, there is the super spice factor (which for bringing casually to locals is a plus in my book). I'm currently in a super fair meta that can allow me to try these more obscure builds. I have some credit at my locals that losing a couple of weeks does not put me at an actual loss. And most importantly, scientific curiosity. Nic-Fit as it has been defined more or less from the beginning it seems is the combination of Vet. Explorer + Cabal Therapy. Can we do differently? It seems people have played with this question in the past, and honestly I don't think this is going to work too well either. But Giving the other factors I am willing to try this out.

The main deck that I am going to bring with me Wednesday (I think):

//Creatures
4 Veteren Explorer
4 Eternal Witness
2 Venser
2 Thragtusk

//Instants & Sorceries
3 Punishing Fire
4 Collateral Damage
4 Perilous Research
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Capsize
2 price of progress

//Lands
3 Forest
3 Island
2 Mountain
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforest


Spicy, but I would definitely find some room for crop with a tower as you can protect it with countermagic and it brings burnwillow too

And perhaps a mix witness/snapcaster

[Echelon]

My rector dies: trigger. Would you like to remove it with your DRS in answer to abort it?

lol

Fortunately you only have to remind your opponent of the trigger, not of what he could possibly do in response of it.

[Ulysse95]

Fortunately you only have to remind your opponent of the trigger, not of what he could possibly do in response of it.

Yeah, I know, I was just joking around about avoiding any missreading effect Brael was talking about :laugh:

[Brael]

Possible BUG idea here. In the same space as I've been messing with lately which is abusing Paradoxical Outcome.

23 land
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp

20 creatures
2 Walking Ballista
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Glissa, the Traitor
1 Sower of Temptation

18 spells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Paradoxical Outcome
2 Collective Brutality
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Crop Rotation

[Bromophelio]

First time on this thread as I've finally got some Junk duals and I'm thinking of venturing into Nic-Fit. I'm a big fan of the Academy Rector package and wanted to relive my first ever 60 card deck in grand style. The first Mythic I ever pulled was Descent into Madness and I made a terrible Mardu list with Assemble the Legion and Descent into Madness to lock the game down slowly. Is there any way that I could fit this into a Nic-Fit list for fun? I have no intention of winning a GP (or even a mtach) with this, but I figured I could slide the combo into a list for some fun. I guess my basic question is this: What is the shell that people commonly run for the Recto version of the decks? Any help would be appreciated as I'm still learning the basics for this archetype.

Thanks in advance!

[square_two]

Possible BUG idea here. In the same space as I've been messing with lately which is abusing Paradoxical Outcome.

23 land
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp

20 creatures
2 Walking Ballista
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Glissa, the Traitor
1 Sower of Temptation

18 spells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Paradoxical Outcome
2 Collective Brutality
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Crop Rotation

Are you just going to use it to bounce your creatures at end of opp's turn? I don't really see any other combos with it...4cmc card really has to do some work if it's going to be better than Jace TMS in bug colors...

[Brael]

Are you just going to use it to bounce your creatures at end of opp's turn? I don't really see any other combos with it...4cmc card really has to do some work if it's going to be better than Jace TMS in bug colors...

Block and bounce, bounce in response to removal, attack, bounce, and replay untapped. Basically Im just looking at using it as a large manasink that also generates a bunch of cards.

Compared to Jace, Jace takes longer to generate cards, is harder to cast, and doesn't protect our board. It also requires a tap out. Between clue tokens and this, you have enough to do at instant speed that you can tap for it whenever.

[square_two]

Block and bounce, bounce in response to removal, attack, bounce, and replay untapped. Basically Im just looking at using it as a large manasink that also generates a bunch of cards.

Compared to Jace, Jace takes longer to generate cards, is harder to cast, and doesn't protect our board. It also requires a tap out. Between clue tokens and this, you have enough to do at instant speed that you can tap for it whenever.

So...you are assuming you already have a creature or two on board. Ok. I still don't see how playing out Jace and brainstorming for the next several turns isn't just a much better play. Now your opponent has to deal with your board + Jace. Then your mana is freed up to actually cast the things that he draws you into, as opposed to removing them from your own board. Or you can bounce opponent's creatures like Angler/Delver/fatty/etc and allow your Trackers etc to get through. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but like...I'm just not seeing it.

[JackaBo]

First time on this thread as I've finally got some Junk duals and I'm thinking of venturing into Nic-Fit. I'm a big fan of the Academy Rector package and wanted to relive my first ever 60 card deck in grand style. The first Mythic I ever pulled was Descent into Madness and I made a terrible Mardu list with Assemble the Legion and Descent into Madness to lock the game down slowly. Is there any way that I could fit this into a Nic-Fit list for fun? I have no intention of winning a GP (or even a mtach) with this, but I figured I could slide the combo into a list for some fun. I guess my basic question is this: What is the shell that people commonly run for the Recto version of the decks? Any help would be appreciated as I'm still learning the basics for this archetype.

Thanks in advance!

Hello and welcome!
I think you are gonna regret if you buy into a brew that doesnt even win a game. I started my legacy career like that and it could have ended right there. Playing is fun, and so is winning.

So rector fit. The best creature, and most played by far, is death rite shaman. He can singlehandidly stop your gameplan so you need to have a bunch of answers to him. It can be a variety of cards, removal, ground seal, pithing needle.

Most people play the Evo leap configuration, which means you want as few creatures as possible outside of Explorers and Rectors. You want pseudo-creatures to do the fighting for you. I run Lingering souls and Garruk, Relentless.

The you want a couple of bombs to search for with rector. Sandwurm convergence wins a lot of games. Overwhelming Splendor, dovescape and to some extent living planes hoses different type of decks.

Other than that it's pretty much open. Other variations would be more creatures and no Evo leap. Or running Omniscience and fattys.

If you browse this thread you will see some iterations and decklists. My advice is to start with one of them and let the brewing come later.

[Brael]

So...you are assuming you already have a creature or two on board. Ok. I still don't see how playing out Jace and brainstorming for the next several turns isn't just a much better play. Now your opponent has to deal with your board + Jace. Then your mana is freed up to actually cast the things that he draws you into, as opposed to removing them from your own board. Or you can bounce opponent's creatures like Angler/Delver/fatty/etc and allow your Trackers etc to get through. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but like...I'm just not seeing it.

I've been playing very high CA builds for awhile. Strix in this case is even faster than Bob. I think it's a reasonable expectation that you'll have 2-3 creatures on board.

Jace is good, don't get me wrong... I just don't think it's what this type of deck wants, Jace wants a different creature selection since he's a trickle of 1 card/turn, rather than a bunch of cards at once. I think there's a lot of synergies we can use here that Jace simply doesn't let us take advantage of. For example, the ability to use Sower of Temptation to take something, then bounce that something to our opponents hand, draw 2 cards, and then take something else. Another strong play is the ability to use Nissa finding a Forest twice (which also helps to ramp into the flip). Or Nissa, flip, make an elemental, bounce, and replay for a 3 point difference in loyalty while gaining a card. I also really like the ability to shortcut ticking up a Walking Ballista. There's a lot of good tricks here that Jace doesn't really lend himself to.

Anyways, it's just a theory I'm messing with (I've been brewing with outcome in all formats lately). I'm definitely going to be trying it at the next Legacy night I get but I'm open to the possibility of it not being good here. I think it will be decent though.

[square_two]

Anyways, it's just a theory I'm messing with (I've been brewing with outcome in all formats lately). I'm definitely going to be trying it at the next Legacy night I get but I'm open to the possibility of it not being good here. I think it will be decent though.

What about Oath of Nissa? 1cmc stuff that you can replay on the cheap sounds like another way to pull off some value.

[Brael]

What about Oath of Nissa? 1cmc stuff that you can replay on the cheap sounds like another way to pull off some value.

It would work, it's just a question of cuts. It doesn't help that Oath basically has to come in, in place of removal but that it can't find removal for you.

[Echelon]

What about Oath of Nissa? 1cmc stuff that you can replay on the cheap sounds like another way to pull off some value.

Sounds like a whole lot of durdling and not accomplishing much.

@Bromophelia: Fun is what we do. Welcome to the board!

[Brael]

Sounds like a whole lot of durdling and not accomplishing much.

@Bromophelia: Fun is what we do. Welcome to the board!

Ya, I would rather bounce permanents that do things. I really love the idea of a late game engine pairing Eternal Witness with Paradoxical Outcome.

[Lueseto]

Ok, so this BUG NO list has won 2 online leagues and placed third in another one in the last 10 days, and that's a pretty nice streak considering how unusual Nic Fit appearances are in mtgtop8. The things that caught my eye are the inclusion of the Natural Order package (obviously), the 2 Wasteland and the 4 Gitaxian Probe. What are your thoughts?


20 LANDS

1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland

15 CREATURES

3 Baleful Strix
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Progenitus
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
3 Veteran Explorer

21 INSTANTS and SORC.

2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

4 OTHER SPELLS

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Pernicious Deed

SIDEBOARD

1 Abrupt Decay
3 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Pithing Needle
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 To the Slaughter
1 Toxic Deluge

[Brael]

I'm not a fan. Not enough blue for the FOW's in the side, just an overall weaker version of using NO than what Elves is trying to do.

It seems to be catching people by surprise by using NO rather than actually winning due to it's power.

Then there's the issue of how Wizards cherrypicks results that they post.

[Kobra_D]

With that many sacrifice effects I'd run at least 1 Dryad Arbor.
Also, outside of FoW (or doing nothing for a turn b/c you keep your mana open for Counterspell), how do you plan to interact w/ combo? You just screwed yourself out of discard, Lost Legacy and hatebears.
We run Cabal Therapy b/c it actually does something to mess with your opponents' gameplan (unlike that pseudo-Bolt or the Draw 2) and is an allround good card. Seriously, man.

So, you're concern here is that you don't get to be pro-active in the approach. Instead of trying to shred our opponents hand, get value, and then make big plays, this deck is trying to react to every play and try to eek out enough card advantage to finally make some big play after all resources have otherwise been exhausted by our opponent.

As far as this is concerned, that did feel like a bit of an issue when piloting the deck last night, however, I'm not sure if this was a result of reactivity being too slow or if I'm just trained to be proactive with my nic fit decks.

One incredibly nice thing that I found with this deck was the instant speed sac outlets allow me to turn 1 red mana up into double blue for a counter spell (an example that happened more than once last night). Black was definitely missing, but I'm not done with Temur yet, I'm willing to give it 1 more week.
-----
My run at my LGS went as well Echelon would have expected last night (0-2 drop). But I think that data set is a bit skewed and has actually motivated me to continue with the deck.

Round 1 vs White Eldrazi:

G1 otp:
I open with 6 lands and an eternal witness, mulligan to 6 and keep 3 lands, vet explorer, e. wit, and perilous research. Scry the land to the bottom.

I drop explorer, but my opponents first 4 plays are the relevant ones. They went, T1 chalice@1, T2 TKS, T3 chalice@2, T4 TKS. Even if I had cabal therapy T1 and named chalice they had a T1 TKS thanks to lotus petals. Deed might help but I need to draw it in between TKS and even then the position doesn't feel great.

SB in: 3 Blood moon, 2 Ceremonious Rejection. Out: 4 Collateral Damage, 1 Thragtusk

G2 otp:
I keep 7 which include 3 lands, vet explorer, force, p. research, and e wit.

I T1 vet again, and force pitching research their chalice@1. I draw blood moon and just need to dodge TKS 1 turn. They turn 2 TKS. I spin my wheels for a little bit but the following eldrazi turns were another TKS and reality smasher (happens).

I'm not sure what I could do in this match up as it were, they had wonderful stompy hands and I could not get off the board quick enough.


Round 2 Burning Wish RGCL:
G1 otd: I keep a hand of 5 lands (1 grove), vet explorer and punishing fire. Not great, but this is going to be grindy.
They manage a t1 loam and have thespian's stage in play.

I build a presence as they are unable to find a dark depths for a signifcant amount of time, price them down to single digits, and finally lose to a 20/20.


SB in: 3 Blood moon, 2 BEB, 2 invasive surgery, 2 surgical extraction. Out: 4 Collateral Damage, 1 counterspell, 2 Thragtusk, 1 cyclonic rift, 1 punishing fire.

G2 otp: I don't remember my opening hand, the game was really sweet and involves a lot of back and forth including, blood moons, k- grips, burning wish for [card]devastating dreams[/cards] to completely wipe my board. With an eventual me building back to price of progress, e wit, price of progress them out of the game.

G3 otd:
Still cannot remember how this went, but we end up in top deck mode with about 2 minutes on the clock, I get them to 8 life and just need to find a draw spell, a price of progress, a capsize, anything other than lands. I draw lands, they draw better lands and make a 20/20 as we're about to go to turns.

I get a bye round 3 and decide to go home instead of waiting around.

All in all, the deck out performed my expectations. The game against Eldrazi I am willing to chalk up to variance, they had a wonderful start, and I did not. Lands was actually winnable in all 3 games and came down to the wire. I'm going to test some more but I don't think Temur is necessarily an auto-reject. The instant speed sac outlet was so good, definitely something I am going to look to implement going forward.


Ok, so this BUG NO list has won 2 online leagues and placed third in another one in the last 10 days, and that's a pretty nice streak considering how unusual Nic Fit appearances are in mtgtop8. The things that caught my eye are the inclusion of the Natural Order package (obviously), the 2 Wasteland and the 4 Gitaxian Probe. What are your thoughts?


The land denial might be there for a reason, but I'm not a particular fan of the wastelands. NO into progenitus is nice, but this deck seems to be a bit dedicated to the matter with 3 NO, if I were going to try this I would probably drop it down to 2 and cut Titania all together. She does well enough, but there are so many cards I want in that position. Even a second DRS to just help ramp faster (and DRS is generally a good card).

All in all I do like it, I know NO is brought up once in a while, and I think has a place in some metas where you just want to close out a game on the spot. For me the big question with nic fit has always been, what colors am I playing, what do they provide for me in the current meta, what are they weak to?

So, in bug, which is really good in the grindy match ups like czech pile, and decent against combo, the biggest whiff is against stompy decks (from what I've found). And NO doesn't clear us out against TKS. But I guess I can't really argue with results that keep popping up.

[Echelon]

So, you're concern here is that you don't get to be pro-active in the approach. Instead of trying to shred our opponents hand, get value, and then make big plays, this deck is trying to react to every play and try to eek out enough card advantage to finally make some big play after all resources have otherwise been exhausted by our opponent.

As far as this is concerned, that did feel like a bit of an issue when piloting the deck last night, however, I'm not sure if this was a result of reactivity being too slow or if I'm just trained to be proactive with my nic fit decks.

One incredibly nice thing that I found with this deck was the instant speed sac outlets allow me to turn 1 red mana up into double blue for a counter spell (an example that happened more than once last night). Black was definitely missing, but I'm not done with Temur yet, I'm willing to give it 1 more week.
-----
My run at my LGS went as well Echelon would have expected last night (0-2 drop). But I think that data set is a bit skewed and has actually motivated me to continue with the deck.


The problem with playing reactively is that you wait for your opponent to do something in the hopes you can react to that (especially with cards like Counterspell) while either staying on par with your opponent or falling behind (b/c you don't make your plays when you could b/c you're busy waiting for the bus to arive). I really do wish you the best of luck, I just don't see it happening.

And that last line made me lol :laugh:.


I'm not a fan. Not enough blue for the FOW's in the side, just an overall weaker version of using NO than what Elves is trying to do.

It seems to be catching people by surprise by using NO rather than actually winning due to it's power.

Then there's the issue of how Wizards cherrypicks results that they post.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[iatee]

Hi guys,

I have been thinking of picking up the pieces for Nic Fit - specifically versions with the card Meren of Clan Nel Toth. Does anyone have a solid abzan list with that card?

Thanks

[square_two]

Hi guys,

I have been thinking of picking up the pieces for Nic Fit - specifically versions with the card Meren of Clan Nel Toth. Does anyone have a solid abzan list with that card?

Thanks

IMO think Meren fits best in bug fit since you can recur Strixes all day.

I'm a fan of 3-4 Vet, 4 DRS, 4 Strix, 3-4 Tracker builds with a few Jaces but there is a huge variety in just about any list these days. Junk has like...Pridemage, Sakura-Tribe Elder...that it can specifically focus on with Meren.

Personally I'm planning on sacrificing Academy Rector to a pirate trigger and introducing that deck to Overwhelming Splendor.

[Navsi]

Hi guys,

I have been thinking of picking up the pieces for Nic Fit - specifically versions with the card Meren of Clan Nel Toth. Does anyone have a solid abzan list with that card?

Thanks

With Abzan you have three real options right now depending on what threats you use to finish the game:

- Siege Rhinos. Great against aggro, mediocre against control, pretty awful against combo.

- Planeswalkers. Mediocre against aggro, great against control, varies against combo (Kaya and 3-mana Gideon are great, most of the rest really aren't)

- Stoneforge. Solid against aggro, solid against control, mediocre against combo (SOFAF helps), but get horribly wrecked by Kolaghan's Command.

The rest of the deck is something like this:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Collective Brutality

2 Pernicious Deed (or Toxic Deluge)
2 Sylvan Library
1 Kaya, Ghost Assassin

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

SFM addons:
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Dryad Arbor

Rhinos addons:
4 Siege Rhino
2 Thoughtseize

Walkers addons:
1 Gideon AoZ
1 Gideon Trials
1 Elspeth SC
1 Nissa VF
2 Toxic Deluge

Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Lost Legacy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 To The Slaughter
2 Toxic Deluge or Golgari Charm
1 Elspeth SC (or some other big walker if you already have one)
1 Gaddock Teeg

[Kobra_D]

I defer to the others opinion on the matter, but I would have probably suggested an Abzan Pod variant to be best used with Meren. I know most people have moved to playing BUG when it comes to POD (and in general), but I like some of the white sideboard options. Gaddock Teeg being huge here since combo variants are the decks worst match up and a sideboard Sigarda means fair decks need to have a strictly better clock than you.

My old Abzan Pod List:

//Creatures
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteren Explorer
1 qasali pridemage
1 scaveging ooze
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Eternal Witness
1 tireless tracker
2 siege rhino
1 Meren of clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Sidisi Undead Vizear
1 Grave Titan
//Instant & Sorcery
4 Cabal therapy
1 abrupt decay
4 green sun's zenith
2 path to exile
2 Diabolic Edict
//Artifatcs & Enchantment
2 Pernicious deed
2 Sylvan Library
2 Birthing Pod
// Lands
2 swamp
3 Forest
2 plains
4 windswept heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 savannah
2 bayou
1 scrublands
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volraths Stronghold

[sobakasu510]

The land denial might be there for a reason, but I'm not a particular fan of the wastelands. NO into progenitus is nice, but this deck seems to be a bit dedicated to the matter with 3 NO, if I were going to try this I would probably drop it down to 2 and cut Titania all together. She does well enough, but there are so many cards I want in that position. Even a second DRS to just help ramp faster (and DRS is generally a good card).

So how would you change the lands? -2 Wasteland and +1 Phyrexian Tower and some other land? What would you put in instead of Titania?

Natural Order looks fun and I think I'm gonna give it a go with 2 of them, so I'd appreciate any input. Someone else mentioned that the list's SB didn't make sense with the FoWs. What might be better SB options in general?

Sent from my XT1097 using Tapatalk

[square_two]

So how would you change the lands? -2 Wasteland and +1 Phyrexian Tower and some other land? What would you put in instead of Titania?

Natural Order looks fun and I think I'm gonna give it a go with 2 of them, so I'd appreciate any input. Someone else mentioned that the list's SB didn't make sense with the FoWs. What might be better SB options in general?

Sent from my XT1097 using Tapatalk

Personally I've found that too many utility lands in BUG can be wonky - you already have to prioritize duals early in order to navigate with wanting Strix early. Single Phyrexian Tower can be fine. I was about to suggest Phyrexian Tower + Volrath's Stronghold but the list already has Meren to fill Stronghold's role.

The 4 FoW in the side of that list could just as easily be 3 Thoughtseize, 1 Faerie Macabre (personally I like at least 3 fast graveyard hate effects, and Faerie works well with Meren). Mixing your own discard, which is proactive, with reactive hate like Flusterstorm is a nice way to go.

Another idea is Ruric Thar in the side. From my experience with Nyx Fit, sometimes all it takes is a couple turns of disruption followed by oops-4-drop-I-win. Rector for Dovescape in Nyx's case.

[Kobra_D]

So how would you change the lands? -2 Wasteland and +1 Phyrexian Tower and some other land? What would you put in instead of Titania?

Natural Order looks fun and I think I'm gonna give it a go with 2 of them, so I'd appreciate any input. Someone else mentioned that the list's SB didn't make sense with the FoWs. What might be better SB options in general?

Sent from my XT1097 using Tapatalk

Right now there are 20 lands (really 19, Dryad arbor is more easily thought of as a spell [I know it's not actually a spell by definition]).

From those 19 lands, 2 wastelands aren't helping us cast spells but are denying our opponents. If the pilot of that deck expects a lot of lands match ups or czech pile and just needs to falter them early, sure it makes sense.

But I would probably cut titania, a NO, and the 2 wastelands, and go +1 tower, +1 Bayou, +1 swamp, and +1 more dual (probably sea, if you don't have more duals then a 7th basic).

I always like having at least 6 basics which makes a convenient 3 vet triggers in the super grindy match ups. 5 seems a bit low but isn't necessarily wrong. This puts the land count to 21 (22 counting Dryad), which is better for a card like tracker, and also provides more options to cast all of our spells (getting choked on mana from aggressive wastelands/ports feels super bad with nic fit).

That would probably be closer to what I would sleeve up if I ran a NO BUG list.

With Nic Fit wanting as much of the resources available all the time, I would also agree to swap out force's which are costly for thoughtseize's. The difference between an early 2-1 and 1-1 could be the difference in winning and losing against fast combo.

[Echelon]

B. Pod is cool in concept, but mostly just durdles and fails to apply pressure when needed.

[Brael]

The problem with Birthing Pod is threefold. The first issue is that there's little overlap between good GSZ targets and good Birthing Pod targets. The second issue is that while Pod is a strong engine, it takes a long time to get going and therefore you'll struggle against both combo and aggro... the combo matchup being more important here. The third issue is that it's a very slow deck. Not only does it take a lot of turns to actually win the game with some long grinding, but each turn usually involves multiple tutors and then shuffling, and that eats up the clock.

As a casual deck it's fun, but in anything with match timers, pod isn't going to perform well.

[Memories of the Time]

As a casual deck it's fun, but in anything with match timers, pod isn't going to perform well.

Funny, because 2 of the 3 best results a Nic Fit deck has ever reached are made by Pod versions...

Anyway, i've played a big italian tournament (ovinogeddon) with D&T because i haven't been able to get all the cards for Nyx Fit. but from the next tournament i'll totally take it again with me.
Still wondering about the right mix of manipulation, right now i've 3 Mirri and 2 Scroll rack but Mirri's performances are very volatile

[square_two]

Funny, because 2 of the 3 best results a Nic Fit deck has ever reached are made by Pod versions...

Anyway, i've played a big italian tournament (ovinogeddon) with D&T because i haven't been able to get all the cards for Nyx Fit. but from the next tournament i'll totally take it again with me.
Still wondering about the right mix of manipulation, right now i've 3 Mirri and 2 Scroll rack but Mirri's performances are very volatile

I'm testing 1 Mirri 2 Library right now. Back down to 3 Lingering Souls and I've removed the Cavern for another dual. Also have entirely removed a GSZ-able fatty from the 75, adding in Chokes to the sideboard instead. And Teeg instead of Canonist.

Posted this in discord, but had a couple turns against aggro loam that went: cast rector, sac to tower, grab leyline of the void (to shut off pfire), use leftover mana to hardcast cruel reality. Next turn: play e witness, get back overwhelming splendor, sac to tower to hardcast splendor. :cool:

[Brael]

Funny, because 2 of the 3 best results a Nic Fit deck has ever reached are made by Pod versions...

Which tournaments? If you're referring to leagues, it's relatively easy to get a good league result just by lucking out on the matchups. If you hit a bunch of Delver or other midrange decks, Pod can do well. It also does better online than in paper because paper adds about 1 minute per turn to each turn due to shuffles.

Anyways, like I said... Pod lacks interaction, and it lacks speed. It's powerful because every card generates a 2 for 1, but it's not where you want to be in Legacy.

[Echelon]

Another good question would be when were those results, and (indeed) in what meta.

[Memories of the Time]

Which tournaments? If you're referring to leagues, it's relatively easy to get a good league result just by lucking out on the matchups. If you hit a bunch of Delver or other midrange decks, Pod can do well. It also does better online than in paper because paper adds about 1 minute per turn to each turn due to shuffles.

Anyways, like I said... Pod lacks interaction, and it lacks speed. It's powerful because every card generates a 2 for 1, but it's not where you want to be in Legacy.

.... no, the three best results of Nic Fits are made by:
-Brug Pod: best results ever, 6 of 426
-ScapeFit: 1 of 187
-Junk Pod: 5 of 173

Stretching the matter to every 100+ players with a Nic Fit in top 8, Pod is still the most winning version.
@Echelon: 1-2 years ago, depending on which one. I'll never play Pod in this meta because of Command, of course, but not for the problem said by Brael.

@Square_two: Scroll Rack is being the best one since now, it's the closest thing to Brainstorm we can have, and Brainstorm is what we miss to be a Tier (imho, obv).

[Echelon]

On a sidenote...

SDEMATT, EMPTY YOUR INBOX DAMMIT :laugh:

[Brael]

https://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-mengucci-legacy-sultai-nic-fit/

Andrea Mengucci playing Nic Fit again, a list we were discussing recently here.

Like usual for his videos though, I find it infuriating to watch because he's such a bad player.

Game 1 is a good example of why you need to develop your mana early.

And the whole thing is why I argue you need to be able to interact. This match is what happens when you only play 8 cards capable of interaction, and have a lack of pressure.

Edit: Got my outcomes. This week is looking bad for Legacy, but I'll try to get a couple games in. I still think Outcome is a card that's worth considering. The most obvious alternative is Jace, but Outcome provides cards quicker, and perhaps more importantly is much easier to cast as our tertiary color. The double blue on Jace is a big obstacle to making BUG work smoothly.

[Echelon]

Lol try watching people pilot Manaless Dredge when they have no clue what they're doing. It's excruciating.

[Brael]

Lol try watching people pilot Manaless Dredge when they have no clue what they're doing. It's excruciating.

I'm glad he makes Legay content, but I find his lines to be really bad, with basically everything. Basically, he always identifies a line (and the lines are often clever) but he pigeonholes himself into needing very specific draws for it to work.

The lines this time were especially bad. I'm not expecting much considering he's only played the deck a couple times... but the videos really show what I talk about a lot with this deck. You need a good curve, you need low mana plays, and you need to accelerate quickly.

In basically every single game he either explodes into nothing or loses to his mana.

As a sidenote, BUG faces these problems more than most other color combinations because it's greedier for blue, than red is for red or white is for white.

[lavafrogg]

I'm glad he makes Legay content, but I find his lines to be really bad, with basically everything. Basically, he always identifies a line (and the lines are often clever) but he pigeonholes himself into needing very specific draws for it to work.

The lines this time were especially bad. I'm not expecting much considering he's only played the deck a couple times... but the videos really show what I talk about a lot with this deck. You need a good curve, you need low mana plays, and you need to accelerate quickly.

In basically every single game he either explodes into nothing or loses to his mana.

As a sidenote, BUG faces these problems more than most other color combinations because it's greedier for blue, than red is for red or white is for white.

On turn 5 of the first game, couldn't he have just made a Progenitus to block the thought knot seer? Fetch for dryad arbor, play natural order? Then he could have decayed Jitte and played out his hand.... this works right? No priority gets passed between the fetch resolving and him casting NO?

[JackaBo]

My biggest problem is that he's fast to pass judgement "this deck is bad" when it's actually him. If he were more modest and acknowledged that "this deck plays out differently than what I'm used to" or "man that didnt go well, Maybe i should mulled that hand or played differently" i'd have more respect. Although, one is so starved for legacy content that even bad content is good.

[square_two]

On turn 5 of the first game, couldn't he have just made a Progenitus to block the thought knot seer? Fetch for dryad arbor, play natural order? Then he could have decayed Jitte and played out his hand.... this works right? No priority gets passed between the fetch resolving and him casting NO?

Correct (not from me watching the video, just from how priority works). It's the same thing as fetching for Dryad Arbor and immediately sacrificing it to flashback Therapy - push/swords/jitte isn't going to stop that line.

Nyx update - I've put in a few Chokes in the side and they are so far amazing. Overloads opp's enchantment hate in games 2/3, is generally nuts against all the greedy blue decks around. Finally came across a couple elves players online (my history seeing them before this week was like, 1 out of 60+ matches online) and we are well positioned it feels. Splendor is absolutely backbreaking for them unless they have a Nissa VF ready. Generally most opps scoop as soon as they realize that whatever non-mana, non-loyalty abilities they were banking on are shut off.

Right now I'm trying out foregoing the singleton Lost Legacy in my side to bring back in Sigarda, although I'm seeing the argument for something faster like Titania. Choke plan makes sense to also go with a topend GSZ threat. Combo decks generally play out with turns 1-3 disruption, turns 3-5 rector activation and so far haven't really used Lost Legacy except for one game against Ruby Storm. Teeg has been nice to bring in.

So far liking the Mirri's Guile just as additional early action. Currently tempted to maindeck 2 Thoughtseize and sideboard the 2 Deeds...or maybe swap only 1 just so that game 1 Rector for Deed is possible (yah never know). Probably incorrect to make that sort of swap though.

[Brael]

Made one difference to the BUG build I'm playing with. I threw a Mystic Remora into the deck as another mid-late game manasink (also plays nice with Outcome to just reset the culmulative upkeep).


My biggest problem is that he's fast to pass judgement "this deck is bad" when it's actually him. If he were more modest and acknowledged that "this deck plays out differently than what I'm used to" or "man that didnt go well, Maybe i should mulled that hand or played differently" i'd have more respect. Although, one is so starved for legacy content that even bad content is good.

Ya, that's an issue with his decks. Basically, the only thing he knows how to play is the cantrip shell, and even that he's not that great at. I don't want to slam him too much, but I just don't think highly of him as a constructed player because he has the habit of forcing himself into narrow lines. I think he's a much better limited player.

Regardless, it's some videos to watch and if nothing else I think it's a good example of why you should do a lot of things more experienced players with this deck recommend in construction, hand keeps, etc. These videos have a lot of bad plays and sketchy hands, but they still seem worth discussing.

[Brael]

On turn 5 of the first game, couldn't he have just made a Progenitus to block the thought knot seer? Fetch for dryad arbor, play natural order? Then he could have decayed Jitte and played out his hand.... this works right? No priority gets passed between the fetch resolving and him casting NO?

This is correct.

[Kobra_D]

So, I watched through the entirety of the Mengucci video and decided to take notes on the plays. Sure, we can say that he didn't play optimally, but if we don't learn from mistakes (ours or others) then we aren't really progressing the deck forward either.

All in all I took about 3 pages of notes, so I think the short cut off is encapsulated in his statement at the end "The deck didn't feel that good." With this I agree, I think it reflects the sentiments myself and others shared a page ago on Natural Order BUG.

Aside from that, he did take plenty or agreeable lines. Plays that were more or less correct plays that lead to a


//Lands
1 x Swamp
2 x Island
2 x Forest
1 x Bayou
1 x Dryad Arbor
4 x Misty Rainforest
2 x Tropical Island
1 x Underground Sea
1 x Wasteland
4 x Verdant Catacombs
1 x Phyrexian Tower

//Creatures
1 x Deathrite Shaman
2 x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 x Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 x Keeper of Progenitus
1 x Tireless Tracker
1 x Titania, Protector of Argoth
3 x Veteran Explorer
1 x Scavenging Ooze
1 x Eternal Witness
3 x Baleful Strix

//Spells
2 x Pernicious Deed
4 x Gitaxian Probe
4 x Brainstorm
3 x Natural Order
2 x Abrupt Decay
4 x Green Sun's Zenith
4 x Cabal Therapy
2 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
//Sideboard
1 x Abrupt Decay
2 x To the Slaughter
1 x Pithing Needle
1 x Reclamation Sage
4 x Force of Will
3 x Flusterstorm
1 x Toxic Deluge
2 x Surgical Extraction

____________________________
Round 1(0-0): Eldrazi Stompy (0-2 )
G1 OTD-
4:32 Keep Wasteland, swamp, misty rainforest, scooze, E. wit., tracker, and vet.
4:35 Opponent leads on ancient tomb jitte. This should scream chalice deck, probably eldrazi, but could always be soldier stompy or something a little more obscure. The option presents itself to either play t1 vet or waste the tomb. Since, opp. lead on jitte is it understandable to say that they don't have chalice in hand but wasting here is a greedy play. If they have no more lands, then yes, we "time walk" them. If they have a land, then they are up a jitte and we time walk ourselves, and worst case scenario, they are able to play chalice on 1 next turn. They play chalice on 1 and Mengucci is more or less locked out. For a similar reason, I often find people leading on vet. over therapy in the blind because we can cast a therapy into chalice, but not a vet into chalice.
6:40 E. wit for wasteland. We have already wasted from behind once and it didn't pay off. I would've (and he comments on this) fetched for a land, and then E. wit for the fetch to continue to develop the mana. Dual lands>wasteland here.
8:26 Tracker then land for clue with active jitte. Land, decay jitte, play tracker. This isn't a good spot to be in but provides an out. Where the line taken leads to an immediate concession.
SB- I love To the Slaughter in Eldrazi match ups. It isn't the best removal but it is removal and enough to help us stabilize.
G2 OTP-
9:59 2x Cabal therapy, NO, Decay, Forest, GSZ, Probe.
This was a greedy keep. It's already a mull to 6 with the NO but without a scry. He keeps, probes, sees a TKS and then lets GSZ be taken by it. I probably would have gsz'd for a dryad arbor to hit a second land.
He loses with just a forest in play.
____________________________
Round 2(0-1): Elves (2-1)
G1 OTP-
12:42 Ver. Cat, Misty, Forest, Brainstorm, E. Wit., NO, Jace
14:10 Not blocking the Sentinel with vet on their turn was right imo, but not attacking with vet to offer the trade on our turn is almost definitely wrong. Yes, it still ramps the elves, but gives us the first access to the lands which allows for a T3 Jace or Progenitus. Might be the best position to hope for.
15:11 E. wit for brainstorm. Brainstorm does nothing at the moment, I again would have attacked with vet. If they took it then I would have played jace, DRS, otherwise waste one of their lands and play DRS.

G2 OTP-
19:10 mulligan [Trop, Island, vet, 2 GSZ, Titania] scry probe to top. The keep at 6 is fine, but we need early interaction. Probe doesn't let us do that immediately with our mana available. I would have scried (sp?) probe to the bottom but that is being nit picky (as opposed to nic fity XD).
26:21 I would have fetched dryad arbor to block here. Our mana is already more or less developed and it would just keep the opp. off of any realistic board state.

G3 OTD-
Keep Force, Fluster, misty, island, probe, decay, vet.
32:16 Knowing our opponent can dump their hand otherwise, he doesn't force heritage druid here. Sure, force is used for craterhoof in a turn, but the mana wouldn't have been available for craterhoof is heritage was forced. I admit my line is easily debatable.
37:13 Flusterstorm and island in hand, he doesn't fluster a thoughtseize. The net result is the same, and maybe they don't pay for it and don't lose 2 life. But letting them know that we have nothing is not worth it in my mind. I would rather force them to pay 2 for the otherwise free information.
____________________________
Round 3 (1-1): Jund (2-0)
G1 OTP-
Keep 2 Misty, vet, decay, Jace, NO, tracker.
46:46 He doesn't NO because of wasteland? He shouldn't NO because of Lili. But that is more of a clarification rather than a debate on the play.
48:57 Crack a clue then Jace, I would recommend Jace first and then the clue (minor contention here).
G2 OTD-
mull to 6 [2 misty, island, dryad, trop, gsz] scry NO top.
There is again no interaction here, I would have bottomed NO.
51:50 There is a mainphase abrupt decay, which seems unnecessary but still leads to a win.
____________________________
Round 4 (2-1): NU Miracles (0-2)
G1 OTD-
Keep Vet, GSZ, NO, Probe, Jace, Bayou, Misty
1:01:12 Naming swords with therapy. They would either tuck swords or cast in response. Brainstorm, ponder, jace, predict, are all better names.
1:03:06 Playing Jace off of a wasteland.
1:04:03 Jace 0 leaves : GSZ, NO, 3 BS, Decay, Tower, Leo, and Swamp with 2 to put back. I would have put back NO and tower. He put back decay and swamp. He follows this up with playing tower to get rid of strix for black mana to play leo. He could have played the swamp to play leo. He mentioned something about playing around terminus, but sacrificing strix doesn't help play around terminus. They would still pop a terminus if just leo were around.
1:06:30-1:09:00 He continues to brainstorm, and jace, and dig for deed after an entreat the angels. This play loses to force of will. Instead, had he decayed an angel, bounced an angel, and then played strix. If there is a force of will (or swords) in hand we buy 2 turns, if there is not we get 3 more turns. If we dig for deed and find one, we win are in a good spot if there is no force of will, we lose to force of will. We lost to force of will.
G2 OTP-
Mulligan to 6 [misty, force, gsz, leo, strix, fluster] scry tracker to the top.
1: 13:45 I would gsz @0 for dryad to have access to next turn Leo. He drew a swamp which let him run out Leo anyways, but having a Leo, and hoping for a Leo are a bit of a different position to be in.
____________________________
Round 5 (2-2): Jund Elves (0-2)
G1 OTP-
Keep Mull to 5 [Bs, 2 Ver. Cat., GSZ, Island] Scry probe top.
1:19:39 Jace bounce DRS? Um, ok?
G2 OTD-
Keep Force, fluster, 2 GSZ, Dryad, Forest, Ver. Cat.
1:34:26 Double blocking the Scooze with DRS and Leo instead of running out deed the last turn. This was a blow out of golgari charm.
1:36:44 Playing a fetch land instead of holding+hoping for brainstorm. It is not necessarily wrong, but he took the line of holding lands previously in the video. I guess I would just want a little more consistency. That's not to say it is always right/wrong, but he had mana and didn't need the land drop that turn.
1:37:27 Waiting to crack deed let opp. NO. He had a force, but that is so many resources used when cracking deed mainphase vould have prevented a lot.
1:41:15 Playing the fetch land with Ranger up to hit bayou doesn't do much, but stops us from shuffling the lands off the top of the deck. It's arguably an unwinnable spot, but this didn't help.
____________________________

Final record, 2-3. Again, a lot of the plays were not bad plays, but I definitely see why people say legacy is about playing the deck you know the best. These were some of the lines I saw that I would have diverged from. If anyone else has an opinion on the matter I would appreciate feedback as well. Although, I think this furthers my lack of wanting to play a NO version, a lot of lines were generally about sideboarding/brainstorm/jace/gsz which is good across a variety of builds.

[Brael]

I didn't take notes like you did, I just noticed several lines I didn't like. I think a lot of it was that I'm just not a fan of NO in this deck, nor do I think a cantrip shell is where you want to be.

The thing I noticed was how Mengucci would often times after boarding take out the Nic Fit elements and just try to play a BUG midrange deck that's low on threat density. I disagreed a lot with his sideboard choices, because I think you want the mana acceleration no matter what. When you take out Veteran Explorers you should be bringing in some other type of acceleration.


Final record, 2-3. Again, a lot of the plays were not bad plays, but I definitely see why people say legacy is about playing the deck you know the best. These were some of the lines I saw that I would have diverged from. If anyone else has an opinion on the matter I would appreciate feedback as well. Although, I think this furthers my lack of wanting to play a NO version, a lot of lines were generally about sideboarding/brainstorm/jace/gsz which is good across a variety of builds.

That's just how he plays any deck. Cantrip shell threat light decks are his preferred decks (he made/popularized czech pile) but he doesn't really play those any different than he plays this.

[Kobra_D]

I didn't take notes like you did, I just noticed several lines I didn't like. I think a lot of it was that I'm just not a fan of NO in this deck, nor do I think a cantrip shell is where you want to be.

The thing I noticed was how Mengucci would often times after boarding take out the Nic Fit elements and just try to play a BUG midrange deck that's low on threat density. I disagreed a lot with his sideboard choices, because I think you want the mana acceleration no matter what. When you take out Veteran Explorers you should be bringing in some other type of acceleration.



That's just how he plays any deck. Cantrip shell threat light decks are his preferred decks (he made/popularized czech pile) but he doesn't really play those any different than he plays this.

I am much more comfortable now with my statement of natural order doesn't help in in any match up where we need help. It was either a dead card or a slow card, I similarly feel that birthing pod fits into this category (for the time being).

I've often enough seen the rock style shell built into the deck, but Nic Fit is a greedy deck. I've lent it out several times to people and the first thing I try to warn them about is, as you said Brael, develop your mana base. Veteran Explorer in the 75 doesn't guarantee that we will have 12 mana on turn 2 to work with. It does take a conscientious effort to gain access to the colors and total mana count needed to make the big plays that can win us the game.

[Paranoid__Android]

There's a big legacy torunament coming up at the end of the month and I'm going with Rhino plan. Since there is unknown metagame there I'm thiking of making maindeck good against aggro & control, and good against combo decks, sideboard.
Is there any decklist here from which I can start planning and testing my Rhino Fit for that tournament?

TnQ in advance! :)

[square_two]

There's a big legacy torunament coming up at the end of the month and I'm going with Rhino plan. Since there is unknown metagame there I'm thiking of making maindeck good against aggro & control, and good against combo decks, sideboard.
Is there any decklist here from which I can start planning and testing my Rhino Fit for that tournament?

TnQ in advance! :)

See Navsi's post where this comes from (click on the arrow next to his bolded name right below), he fleshes out a basic list. Should be plenty of others around here that you can tweak from.


With Abzan you have three real options right now depending on what threats you use to finish the game:

- Siege Rhinos. Great against aggro, mediocre against control, pretty awful against combo.

- Planeswalkers. Mediocre against aggro, great against control, varies against combo (Kaya and 3-mana Gideon are great, most of the rest really aren't)

- Stoneforge. Solid against aggro, solid against control, mediocre against combo (SOFAF helps), but get horribly wrecked by Kolaghan's Command.

The rest of the deck is something like this:


With 3-4 Rhinos I will always recommend a couple of Painful Truths to help keep up in card advantage. Building nic fit to beat aggro/control and side for combo is well...basically every nic fit variant. We prey on fair strategies and need help against combo and dedicated blue control. (equipment/taxes control is generally fine)

Personally I'm a fan of Tireless Trackers, ~2 Collective Brutality main, and Nissa, Vital Force in most standard nic fit lists.

[sdematt]

Inbox emptied!

[Arianrhod]

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Regisaur Alpha
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Carnage Tyrant

3 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Burning Wish
2 Scapeshift

2 Abrupt Decay

2 Nissa, Vital Force

2 Sylvan Library
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Badlands
4 Taiga
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills

sb::
1 Scapeshift
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Pyroclasm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Painful Truths
1 Lost Legacy
2 Slaughter Games
2 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction

Those in the Discord know that I've been tinkering with this for a little while in advance of Ixalan, and I've been doing some testing with it since the cards dropped.

I am pleased to report that it's been testing very well. I've played sets vs DnT, Aggro Loam w/Merit, Deathblade, and BUG True-Names so far, and easily crushed all of them. That's obviously far from a complete meta picture -- I hope to get some games vs Delver and Czech on Friday, plus I have an event on Sunday at Mythic where I'll be playing it, and then another on Monday at locals....and then Mythic 2k next Saturday, and then Eternal Weekend on the 21st. So....lots of games with it coming up.

Chameleon has been somewhat underwhelming, but I have yet to play vs a Strix deck, which is what I'm primarily packing him for.

Regis and Captain Carnage, on the other hand, have both performed to spec or better. Don't expect the Kelly token to ever stick around -- she usually eats a stray Push or Decay or something, but Regis is much harder to get rid of -- and since he tends to stick around, he powers up the Implacable Death Lizard down the road.

Nissa, Vital Force is absolutely, crushingly bonkers in this deck. All of her modes are relevant, but ulting her is definitely a priority. Once you ult her, even if you find yourself unable to Valakut people for whatever reason, Scapeshift itself becomes a 4-mana draw-7....which draws AFTER pulling the lands from your deck, so it always draws gas. It feels impossible to lose vs a fair deck after a Nissa emblem in this particular build.

The other Nissa, VWS, has also overperformed here -- although that's not particularly surprising given the nature of the deck.

But yeah. I'm sure the list isn't 100% perfect, and I haven't played vs the entire field yet...but it's been very promising so far, and I figured it was a good time to share in advance of Eternal Weekend so everyone who used to play it before can gets some reps in with the new version before then.

We comin home, boys and girls.

[Kobra_D]

Took a slightly updated list Temur list to locals (yes, the conclusion I'm going to come to is that RUG Fit is bad) and it went well. Well, as good as 1-3 can be.

The deck actually felt strong, maintained presence, and even found lines to pull ahead. Unfortunately, the deck auto-loses to prelate on 2 (played D&T twice) and also does little against Inkwell Leviathan. I still think there is something to the RUG build, but at this point I am willing to concede the fact that it is a sub-optimal build without therapy (and deed).

That said I learned some things while playing. Perilous Research is a house. The card is typically good and sometimes the nuts high. Anyone on a BUG shell, I would recommend re-evaluating this. In a Jund/Junk build, I probably will try costly plunder in place of painful truths. The instant speed sac outlet that gets around chalice@1 and draws cards felt really powerful. It also shores up some of the issues with the deck where in the mid game we can end up in an awkward top deck mode. Strix helps, tracker helps, Nissa VF helps, and I think this card also proves worthwhile.

Other than that, I think I am going to try Jund next (I wish I had scapeshift to run the above list). If anyone has ideas feel free to let me know. After that I might try the tokens build from a page or so ago, but I also remember this was a thing once: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14582&d=287461&f=LE

And why play legacy if we don't play 4C dragon lords.

Cheers everyone.

[Echelon]

There's a big legacy torunament coming up at the end of the month and I'm going with Rhino plan. Since there is unknown metagame there I'm thiking of making maindeck good against aggro & control, and good against combo decks, sideboard.
Is there any decklist here from which I can start planning and testing my Rhino Fit for that tournament?

TnQ in advance! :)

It kinda depends what playstyle you prefer. Do you like to go the planeswalker route, or do you prefer to stick to creatures? If you prefer the latter, I'm happy to share my current list.

As for the Junk SB - mine currently looks like this:
3 Lost Legacy
3 Duress
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
2 Golgari Charm
1 Gaddock Teeg

Game 2 vs. combo has been very, very good. G3 is still a bit iffy though.


Took a slightly updated list Temur list to locals (yes, the conclusion I'm going to come to is that RUG Fit is bad) and it went well. Well, as good as 1-3 can be.

The deck actually felt strong, maintained presence, and even found lines to pull ahead. Unfortunately, the deck auto-loses to prelate on 2 (played D&T twice) and also does little against Inkwell Leviathan. I still think there is something to the RUG build, but at this point I am willing to concede the fact that it is a sub-optimal build without therapy (and deed).

That said I learned some things while playing. Perilous Research is a house. The card is typically good and sometimes the nuts high. Anyone on a BUG shell, I would recommend re-evaluating this. In a Jund/Junk build, I probably will try costly plunder in place of painful truths. The instant speed sac outlet that gets around chalice@1 and draws cards felt really powerful. It also shores up some of the issues with the deck where in the mid game we can end up in an awkward top deck mode. Strix helps, tracker helps, Nissa VF helps, and I think this card also proves worthwhile.

Other than that, I think I am going to try Jund next (I wish I had scapeshift to run the above list). If anyone has ideas feel free to let me know. After that I might try the tokens build from a page or so ago, but I also remember this was a thing once: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14582&d=287461&f=LE

And why play legacy if we don't play 4C dragon lords.

Cheers everyone.

You know what also helps in topdeck mode..? Mirri's Guile/Sylvan Library (and a bunch of fetchlands and GSZ's). It's what makes Rhino, Rhino, Rhino happen :laugh:.

As for 2 CMC sac outlets - Diabolic Intent is the shit. I'd rather draw the one card I need than 2 cards that might be OK (or utterly useless). The instant speed part of Plunder has very little to do w/ getting around Chalice @1.

[Kobra_D]

It kinda depends what playstyle you prefer. Do you like to go the planeswalker route, or do you prefer to stick to creatures? If you prefer the latter, I'm happy to share my current list.

As for the Junk SB - mine currently looks like this:
3 Lost Legacy
3 Duress
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
2 Golgari Charm
1 Gaddock Teeg

Game 2 vs. combo has been very, very good. G3 is still a bit iffy though.



You know what also helps in topdeck mode..? Mirri's Guile/Sylvan Library (and a bunch of fetchlands and GSZ's). It's what makes Rhino, Rhino, Rhino happen :laugh:.

As for 2 CMC sac outlets - Diabolic Intent is the shit. I'd rather draw the one card I need than 2 cards that might be OK (or utterly useless). The instant speed part of Plunder has very little to do w/ getting around Chalice @1.

That sideboard is stocked full of hate :D. I have moved Gaddock Teeg to the main in Rhino Fit but that is a minor detail which is meta and build dependent.

I do love library (I'm definitely in the library>guile camp) but sometimes it just isn't there. I keep meaning to pick up diabolic intent and always forget. Being reminded of that card I would assume that it is better than costly plunder but still not sure if it is better than research.

Tutoring is good, I'm not arguing against it. But I've liked research because it is instant speed which can be relevant, it is cmc 2 to help get around chalice decks, it is good early to sac a vet. or whatever, and it is good late by sac-ing an extra fetch land, or a basic, or a wolf token, or anything irrelevant on board. I've sac-ed multiple lands when my opp. goes to wasteland me. Which, isn't ideal, but does mitigate the damage. There are options here. More than was immediately obvious.

The chalice comment was because we've always had access to an instant speed sac outlet with crop rotation and tower, this just provides a different out.

[Warden]

@Arianrhod: I'm convinced we don't need library for Scape-Fit, given the card draw options available. Costly plunder + Tracker synergize very well and that's only 1 config.

[sarapfish]

That sideboard is stocked full of hate :D. I have moved Gaddock Teeg to the main in Rhino Fit but that is a minor detail which is meta and build dependent.

I do love library (I'm definitely in the library>guile camp) but sometimes it just isn't there. I keep meaning to pick up diabolic intent and always forget. Being reminded of that card I would assume that it is better than costly plunder but still not sure if it is better than research.

Tutoring is good, I'm not arguing against it. But I've liked research because it is instant speed which can be relevant, it is cmc 2 to help get around chalice decks, it is good early to sac a vet. or whatever, and it is good late by sac-ing an extra fetch land, or a basic, or a wolf token, or anything irrelevant on board. I've sac-ed multiple lands when my opp. goes to wasteland me. Which, isn't ideal, but does mitigate the damage. There are options here. More than was immediately obvious.

The chalice comment was because we've always had access to an instant speed sac outlet with crop rotation and tower, this just provides a different out.


If you need additional sac outlets - try Altar's Reap

[Echelon]

@Arianrhod: I'm convinced we don't need library for Scape-Fit, given the card draw options available. Costly plunder + Tracker synergize very well and that's only 1 config.

Why not use Night's Whisper or Painful Truths and have cards that always work well instead of just w/ Tireless Tracker..?

[Brael]

You know what also helps in topdeck mode..? Mirri's Guile/Sylvan Library (and a bunch of fetchlands and GSZ's). It's what makes Rhino, Rhino, Rhino happen :laugh:.


In blue I've been experimenting with Mystic Remora lately. It's cards, and an easy way to use mana.

Edit: Gotten a few games in with my list right now. It feels a bit anemic. Strix is definitely slower than Bob.

Land 23
4 Verdant Catacomb
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Maze of Ith

Creatures 19
2 Walking Ballista
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Glissa, the Traitor

Spells 18
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Mystic Remora
2 Crop Rotation
1 Collective Brutality
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Paradoxical Outcome

So my thoughts. Outcome is definitely strong, the best card with it is Deathrite Shaman by far, followed by Eternal Witness, followed by Nissa. Ballista sounds like it should be good, but Outcome is a massive mana sink and it becomes difficult to replay as a bigger version.

Strix doesn't play well with any of the best openings, it forces fetching duals early instead of opening on Forest. Speaking of Forests, 4 is not enough here 5 or even 6 might be correct.

Anyways, I like what the deck is doing, and it's nice that Glissa has more than just trinket text, but the curve is all wrong. Needs more 1's and 2's with fewer 3's. I think if you go with the Outcome strategy, Tracker has to come out for something else but there's not really a big list of 2 CMC or less creatures that hit hard enough to justify a slot, or that provide CA.

[Warden]

Why not use Night's Whisper or Painful Truths and have cards that always work well instead of just w/ Tireless Tracker..?

^^Gets at what I'm saying. I like some of the newer spells. I like instant-speed draw in a post-sensei's top meta. I don't think we need slyvan library in scape-fit. The junk-fit lists I'm still debating its inclusion.

@Arianrhod: Does Magus of the Moon interrupt a scapeshift kill? Because I think he's so strong in the SB for larger events. You could always sac him to therapy or something else if needed I guess.

[Kobra_D]

If you need additional sac outlets - try Altar's Reap
Isn't costly plunder an almost strict upgrade to altar's reap? You can construct a situation where it is worse, your opponent mindslavers you and sac's your birthing pod, but these situations I would imagine are the exception not the rule. Perilous Research is different as the cost doesn't include sac-ing so a counter spell can ruin your outlet, but it may not be as dead late game against a deck like thieves or pile which are loaded up on spot removal and keep your creature count low.


Why not use Night's Whisper or Painful Truths and have cards that always work well instead of just w/ Tireless Tracker..?
I was never a huge fan of night's whisper, but I'll admit Painful Truths is gas. There is nothing wrong with the card but the life loss is not necessarily free, especially in non-Rhino builds.


In blue I've been experimenting with Mystic Remora lately. It's cards, and an easy way to use mana.


I've only run 2 Remora in my BUG sideboard. How has it been main? You said the list itself felt a bit off but was this card helpful in a general meta or are you looking to move it back to the board/cut it altogether?

[Brael]

It's been fine main, but part of that is because I can bounce it to reset the cumulative upkeep.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

It's been fine main, but part of that is because I can bounce it to reset the cumulative upkeep.How?

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[arcuba64]

I was testing the NO list with a few changes on Xmage last night. I didn't really ever cast NO but I did notice that the cantrip suite was very smooth.

I've been on BUG with the set of ponders and brainstorms, but 4 BS 4 Probe messes with the curve a LOT less. Not to mention those perfect Cabal hits :)

I'm still testing NO, but I think this configuration of cantrips is the real innovation for BUG.

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[sobakasu510]

I was testing the NO list with a few changes on Xmage last night. I didn't really ever cast NO but I did notice that the cantrip suite was very smooth.

I've been on BUG with the set of ponders and brainstorms, but 4 BS 4 Probe messes with the curve a LOT less. Not to mention those perfect Cabal hits :)

I'm still testing NO, but I think this configuration of cantrips is the real innovation for BUG.

Sent from my SM-G930V using TapatalkGitaxian Probe + Cabal Therapy + Veteran Explorer is hilariously evil. What changes did you make, if you don't mind sharing?

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[Brael]

How?

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Paradoxical Outcome, which is part of what I've been testing in blue.

[Brael]

I was testing the NO list with a few changes on Xmage last night. I didn't really ever cast NO but I did notice that the cantrip suite was very smooth.

I've been on BUG with the set of ponders and brainstorms, but 4 BS 4 Probe messes with the curve a LOT less. Not to mention those perfect Cabal hits :)

I'm still testing NO, but I think this configuration of cantrips is the real innovation for BUG.

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I very strongly disagree. Including cantrips means you don't have enough hits in your deck to tutor for.

[Echelon]

I very strongly disagree. Including cantrips means you don't have enough hits in your deck to tutor for.

I call it BUG Delver Fit.

Don't know what you'd need all the mana for though.

[arcuba64]

Gitaxian Probe + Cabal Therapy + Veteran Explorer is hilariously evil. What changes did you make, if you don't mind sharing?

Sent from my XT1097 using TapatalkI cut a strix and meren for 2 collective brutality. I've really liked the flexibility of brutality and can't bring myself to play without it heh.

I also cut the wasteland for the second swamp.

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[arcuba64]

I very strongly disagree. Including cantrips means you don't have enough hits in your deck to tutor for.It's definitely a trade off... I hear ya, but brainstorm has treated me well enough. I missed having access to extra trackers and deathrites. The probes may be too much, though. It felt right when playing it, however

It's just, without top, it lacks the level of consistency I want, even with a set of gsz and I don't like the alternatives like library and mirri's guile. I have yet to try scroll rack, though...



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[Brael]

It's definitely a trade off... I hear ya, but brainstorm has treated me well enough. I missed having access to extra trackers and deathrites. The probes may be too much, though. It felt right when playing it, however

It's just, without top, it lacks the level of consistency I want, even with a set of gsz and I don't like the alternatives like library and mirri's guile. I have yet to try scroll rack, though...



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The most consistent list I've played by far, is my GB list. For whatever gains in consistency you can create from Brainstorm, you're losing just as much due to Strix.

[JackaBo]

I very strongly disagree. Including cantrips means you don't have enough hits in your deck to tutor for.

I can see where you're comming from. But consider this: if you have ramped with explorer there's not much downside to spend one mana for selection. If you haven't ramped the selection can make you find the missing ramp piece. In a sense Nic fit is a deck divided in two halves: the ramp half and the bomb half with GSZ being in both camps. I couple of cantrips may help tieing (?) the two halves together. I dont think the 8 cantrip shell is where you want to be, but maybe four brainstorm is sound?
The thing that strikes me as wierd about many BUG lists are the auto-include of baleful strixes. No other color combination in nic fit runs such amount of defensive creatures, right? Why not offensive blue stuff like Leo, clique and TNN? Nic fit is also a pretty good home for (the spell) counterspell. Play a threat, hold up unconditional countermagic.

[Brael]

I can see where you're comming from. But consider this: if you have ramped with explorer there's not much downside to spend one mana for selection. If you haven't ramped the selection can make you find the missing ramp piece. In a sense Nic fit is a deck divided in two halves: the ramp half and the bomb half with GSZ being in both camps. I couple of cantrips may help tieing (?) the two halves together. I dont think the 8 cantrip shell is where you want to be, but maybe four brainstorm is sound?
The thing that strikes me as wierd about many BUG lists are the auto-include of baleful strixes. No other color combination in nic fit runs such amount of defensive creatures, right? Why not offensive blue stuff like Leo, clique and TNN? Nic fit is also a pretty good home for (the spell) counterspell. Play a threat, hold up unconditional countermagic.

Double blue is very hard on the mana, that's why I don't like Jace in Nic Fit. Clique and TNN have the same issue, as does Counterspell. Leo is a bit easier to play.

Using your scenario though, you're still asking for a bad color curve in the event that you haven't ramped because you need your first two land drops to be green and black, so you can only have a blue for Brainstorm if you play a dual land, which opens you up to Wasteland, and in turn risks your mana development.

I do agree with you about Strix, we usually consider it an auto include because the card just screams value, but the more I've played it in this deck, the more I don't think I want it. In order to play it, you need to open on 2 duals and it just seems to disrupt whatever else is going on.

[JackaBo]

Double blue is very hard on the mana, that's why I don't like Jace in Nic Fit. Clique and TNN have the same issue, as does Counterspell. Leo is a bit easier to play.

Using your scenario though, you're still asking for a bad color curve in the event that you haven't ramped because you need your first two land drops to be green and black, so you can only have a blue for Brainstorm if you play a dual land, which opens you up to Wasteland, and in turn risks your mana development.

I do agree with you about Strix, we usually consider it an auto include because the card just screams value, but the more I've played it in this deck, the more I don't think I want it. In order to play it, you need to open on 2 duals and it just seems to disrupt whatever else is going on.

Yeah you are right about the color problem. About strix I just remembered a bug list featuring 4 strix with the remark that it feels anemic. Sums it up.
So you want to your blue spell from turn 3 and onwards and ideally only one U in the mana-cost. Eventhough I have been sceptical of Paradoxical outcome (as it seems all about value and not about aggro) it seems like the right train of thought. And to be fair blue has better spells than creatures. Maybe there's more to explore here.

[arcuba64]

I'm inclined to agree with you guys on strix. I think I'll try cutting it. In my experience, it fogs 1 or 2 would-be attacks, then dies to deed/deluge. There's a lot of dnt in my area, so first strike and SoFaI really decrease its usefulness. Maybe removal on it's place or some more GSZ targets (for NO fit anyway)

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[Brael]

Yeah you are right about the color problem. About strix I just remembered a bug list featuring 4 strix with the remark that it feels anemic. Sums it up.
So you want to your blue spell from turn 3 and onwards and ideally only one U in the mana-cost. Eventhough I have been sceptical of Paradoxical outcome (as it seems all about value and not about aggro) it seems like the right train of thought. And to be fair blue has better spells than creatures. Maybe there's more to explore here.

Outcome is definitely more of a value spell, what I'm finding more than anything is that it's an absolutely massive mana sink. To the point that I'm learning I can't use both Outcome and Tracker in the same deck. The best things to bounce are cards that give you mana (Deathrite Shaman, Nissa, Eternal Witness). Nissa and Eternal Witness are just fantastic cards to bounce in general. But, I'm having trouble finding a good replacement for Tireless Tracker, it feels like it needs to go and the same is true of Strix.

I'm not giving up on outcome yet, but it feels like I have to sacrifice all my other CA sources to make it work, so it's probably not where I want to be. I'll probably keep playing this for another day or two, see if anything comes to mind, and then go back to GB, because I think GB is the smoothest build.

[Kobra_D]

Have you tried Venser? It is an extra piece of interaction in fair match ups and has value in being picked up.

Also, against storm: infernal tutor, hold priority, crack led, cast tutor target, flash venser bounce spell with 0 mana floating must feel good.

[Brael]

Double blue is an issue with Venser.

[square_two]

Have you tried Venser? It is an extra piece of interaction in fair match ups and has value in being picked up.

Also, against storm: infernal tutor, hold priority, crack led, cast tutor target, flash venser bounce spell with 0 mana floating must feel good.

Or just bounce one of their lands in response to Infernal Tutor...

[Brael]

Got in a couple more games with outcome. I think I'm ready to call that particular experiment a failure. Overall, it really just reminded me about why I think BUG is the weakest color combination for Nic Fit. It just lacks so much board presence.

I would like to try out a Jund build with Imperial Recruiter next, but they're out of my price range for now, not to mention a card I'm really hesitant to pick up due to it's price being so vulnerable to a reprint.

One thing I've learned over the past couple weeks though, is that the Ballista/Glissa combo is very potent. I wouldn't mind trying to make something work there using a Ranger of Eos package.

If no one else has tried it yet, Ballista is absolutely fantastic. Given the right mana/board development, Ballista represents a 3 turn clock that flips for 0 to Bob, can be tutored with Ranger, either Recruiter, or Trinket Mage, and can be leveraged for removal. It even has a really good interaction with Glissa (not that it comes up much). It's also a great way to use mana in our deck.

[Plm]

I've not yet tried ballista as I'm still musing around nyx fit.

Well it's not nyx fit anymore :tongue:.
I was undecided about the evo-leap plan. as it is either good to the point of overkill or a 2 mana do nothing that you hate to top deck.
But I had enough, during my last testing my win didn't came from leap but from the classic nic fit engine and I felt that I didn't use green sun to it's full power.
Also my best play (turn 2 win through a chalice VS eldrazi) came from a phyrexian tower draw, and as I can't justify playing 4 of them, I'll listen to brael's gospel of the holy crop rotation.

So I'm now testing a more simple junk fit list with 4 rector overwhelming splendor and death's hold as a minimal "combo package"

4 veteran explorer
4 cabal therapy

4 green sun zenith
3 crop rotation
2 mirri's guile
1 scroll rack

4 rector
1 overwhelming splendor
1 curse of death's hold

4 sword to plowshare
2 collective brutality
2 pernicious deed

1 dryad arbor
1 scavenging ooze
1 eternal witness
1 tireless tracker
1 reclamation sage
1 chameleon colossus
1 thragthusk

6 basics
8 fetchs
2 bayou
1 savannah
1 scrubland

1 phyrexian tower
1 cavern of souls
1 volrath stronghold
1 karakas

I'm still sold on cavern of souls, not sure if the crubland would be better as the 9 th fetch.

When I'm bored of rector(people started to bring grave hate, my previous build with souls was so cold to a leyline ) I think I'll try traverse + ballista.

[pettdan]

Or just bounce one of their lands in response to Infernal Tutor...

This seems much better since bouncing the tutor target spell won't stop a storm trigger from resolving, or so I believe.

[JackaBo]

This seems much better since bouncing the tutor target spell won't stop a storm trigger from resolving, or so I believe.

Yes both of these statements are true.

[Kobra_D]

This seems much better since bouncing the tutor target spell won't stop a storm trigger from resolving, or so I believe.

The line I was describing was if they are going to tutor for Ad Nauseum or something like that. Combo is our weakest match up, no surprise there, and while Venser is justifiable against show and tell variants, reanimator, marit lage, I was just looking for a reasonable play against storm decks. Although double U is hard along with 4 cmc, he might just be too fair to justify.

[Brael]

The line I was describing was if they are going to tutor for Ad Nauseum or something like that. Combo is our weakest match up, no surprise there, and while Venser is justifiable against show and tell variants, reanimator, marit lage, I was just looking for a reasonable play against storm decks. Although double U is hard along with 4 cmc, he might just be too fair to justify.

Discard helps a lot. Maelstrom Pulse and Toxic Deluge are good outs to Empty the Warrens. Tendrils is tougher to beat unless you've got Teeg.

My GB lists do hold their own against combo though.

[Brael]

I've been doing some more brewing lately. One approach I take to Nic Fit due to all the tutors we have available is that of packages. We have a mana acceleration package, a removal package, SFM package, Range of Eos package, Trinket Mage package, Blue package, SE package, and so on. Generally we can fit three to four packages in a deck.

A year ago or so (perhaps longer) we were discussing SFM and an idea I kicked around a bit was that of a half package. Instead of 4 SFM, a Batterskull, a Jitte, and a Sword, we could just run a half package of say 2 SFM+1 Jitte+1 Batterskull. And get 80% of the functionality for 50% of the card slots.

I want to expand this idea of half packages further.

For example, lets look at the idea of Burning Wish in red. The typical strategy is to use 6-8 sideboard slots on sorceries, add 4 Burning Wish, and have maximum versatility. However, there's really only a couple good tutor targets, 80% of your tutoring will involve probably 20% of your cards. So lets use some half packages. 1 Burning Wish MB + 1 Collective Brutality + 1 Lost Legacy + 1 Toxic Deluge. Statistically, you'll hit a 1 of about 50% as often as a 4 of (depending on card draw), so you get 50% of the functionality for 33% of the card slots.

So how could this be beneficial? Simply put, it creates a more versatile deck. Where we had to specialize in one package, we can create the room for 2, and have much better matches as a result. So, sticking with the red idea, we could leverage those leftover slots for an Imperial Recruiter package. Say... 2 Recruiter, 1 Dragonmaster Outcast, 1 Huntmaster of the Fells, 1 Walking Ballista.

This creates some tutor overlap and creates slots where we were previously having problems.

Taking this idea, here's a potential Jund list using my usual style
Land 23
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
4 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bojuka Bog

Creatures 20
1 Walking Ballista
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dragonmaster Outcast
4 Dark Confidant
2 Imperial Recruiter
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Huntmaster of the Fells

Spells 18
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Collective Brutality
1 Burning Wish
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

Sideboard 15
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Lost Legacy
1 Sylvan Scrying
1 Maze of Ith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Collective Brutality
1 Toxic Deluge

There's a few things I'm liking with this. Huntmaster and Nissa both serve as reasonable bodies that GSZ and Recruiter can grab, and more importantly there's a really high range of 5 mana starts. So when you have Vet+Tower you can go right into a T2 Recruiter+Bob of GSZ=4. There's also a lot of reach here relative to a normal list, and an above average amount of removal while maintaining threat density. Though, all of the removal does tend to be a bit weak against large creatures.

[Echelon]

@Brael: On packages in general - do you think there are any packages with some natural overlap/synergy? SFM, equipment, Ranger of Eos, Ballista, Glissa or something?

That might be worth looking into.

[Brael]

@Brael: On packages in general - do you think there are any packages with some natural overlap/synergy? SFM, equipment, Ranger of Eos, Ballista, Glissa or something?

That might be worth looking into.

Well, SFM and Recruiter of the Guard seem to have some overlap. But the downside to that is it will seriously hurt your GSZ's. Ranger/Recruiter have some overlap in theory, just because they're the same colors, but really the cards you want from Recruiter lean more towards interaction (especially with combo) while Ranger is more about building a clock.

The best I've found with Ranger of Eos is 2 DRS, 1 something (Endless One or Sylvan Safekeeper), 1 Ballista
I'm not sure what the best is with Recruiter of the Guard yet but Gaddock Teeg, Ethersworn Canonist, Dark Confidant, SFM, and Thalia are all solid options to grab. Scavenging Ooze too.

For example, the usual 4x SFM that gets run could perhaps be 2 SFM, 2 Recruiter, which is just as effective as 4 SFM at getting your equipment, but then include the other hits as well. I think that such a list would lean really far towards non green though.

[Ulysse95]

Well, SFM and Recruiter of the Guard seem to have some overlap. But the downside to that is it will seriously hurt your GSZ's. Ranger/Recruiter have some overlap in theory, just because they're the same colors, but really the cards you want from Recruiter lean more towards interaction (especially with combo) while Ranger is more about building a clock.

The best I've found with Ranger of Eos is 2 DRS, 1 something (Endless One or Sylvan Safekeeper), 1 Ballista
I'm not sure what the best is with Recruiter of the Guard yet but Gaddock Teeg, Ethersworn Canonist, Dark Confidant, SFM, and Thalia are all solid options to grab. Scavenging Ooze too.

For example, the usual 4x SFM that gets run could perhaps be 2 SFM, 2 Recruiter, which is just as effective as 4 SFM at getting your equipment, but then include the other hits as well. I think that such a list would lean really far towards non green though.

In Nic Fit, I think Eladamri Call > Recruiter at 90%
2 CCM, instant speed, larger choice.
Recruiter got a really little body, we rarely run cavern, we don't run Aluren nor Flicker.
We can get it back with forteress and Nissa, but I think there would be better targets.

[Brael]

You could be right on that. But one point in favor of Recruiter is that it plays better with SFM.

[Warden]

You could be right on that. But one point in favor of Recruiter is that it plays better with SFM.

Unless I’m running Reactor, I wouldn’t bother with Recruiter (and even then I’d have to make cuts to include it).
As for NicFit lists, the Dino-fit concept I ran across on Reddit gave me ideas. I wouldn’t go crazy with the theme, but some of the new cards fit well into Nic Fit. Has me thinking about Jund and the old fashioned concept of having bigger value things on the table.

[conboy31]

If anyone is on DinoFit, give Phyrexian Metamorph a look. He was alright with Regisaur Alpha and opponents Leovold.

[Echelon]

Unless I’m running Reactor, I wouldn’t bother with Recruiter (and even then I’d have to make cuts to include it).
As for NicFit lists, the Dino-fit concept I ran across on Reddit gave me ideas. I wouldn’t go crazy with the theme, but some of the new cards fit well into Nic Fit. Has me thinking about Jund and the old fashioned concept of having bigger value things on the table.

I'd think most Ixalan cards to be more Jund/BG Fit cards than Junk. Non-Junk lists now do have a way of obtaining a hard to kill endgame creature and shoring up the 4 mana slot.

[Brael]

I'd think most Ixalan cards to be more Jund/BG Fit cards than Junk. Non-Junk lists now do have a way of obtaining a hard to kill endgame creature and shoring up the 4 mana slot.

I'm not a fan of dinos in jund, but I do like Ripjaw Raptor and Carnage Tyrant. I'll probably be playing with the Imperial Recruiter stuff I've been theorycrafting with for a little while but if/when I go back to pure GB both of those cards are on my list.

[Navsi]

I'm not a fan of dinos in jund, but I do like Ripjaw Raptor and Carnage Tyrant. I'll probably be playing with the Imperial Recruiter stuff I've been theorycrafting with for a little while but if/when I go back to pure GB both of those cards are on my list.

I don't think any of the 4-drops in nonred builds are particularly good right now, but if you were running one I would rather have Chameleon Colossus in my 4-mana Dinosaur slot.

[Brael]

I don't think any of the 4-drops in nonred builds are particularly good right now, but if you were running one I would rather have Chameleon Colossus in my 4-mana Dinosaur slot.

I find it weird that when I was playing Chameleon Colossus everyone told me it's not good and I had to sell people on the card, and now that I'm not playing it, I'm being told I should play it.

Anyways, I don't think I want Colossus with my current builds right now, if I go back to pure GB I'll likely play it, but with either a red or white splash I think I like Mistcutter Hydra more. It checks Jace (or any other PW), it still passes the Strix test, it gets around TNN, can usually beat an Angler, dodges Terminus for a turn, can sometimes surprise ANT, and so on. It does die to black and white removal, but I think that dodging blue is pretty relevant. Plus, I like that it can be tutored from either Recruiter or from Ranger, so it could fit into a lot of pretty versatile strategies. It does play poorly with GSZ though.