[Primer] Nic Fit

[Gruby]

Hi. I'm going to take a part in bigger tournament and need some of your advice ;)
Here's my decklist in which I need some help:

I'll try to borrow bayou and savannah but don't if I can ;)
LANDS 22
1 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

CREATURES 16
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Veteran Explorer

INSTANTS and SORC. 17
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Painful Truths
4 Path to Exile

OTHER SPELLS 5
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Elspeth Knight Errant


SIDEBOARD 11
2 Carpet of Flowers (got playset)
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Slaughter Games
1 Vraska the Unseen
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Golgari Charm


Any suggestions? I have Tireless tracker, thragtusk, thrun,

[Kobra_D]

I find it weird that when I was playing Chameleon Colossus everyone told me it's not good and I had to sell people on the card, and now that I'm not playing it, I'm being told I should play it.

Anyways, I don't think I want Colossus with my current builds right now, if I go back to pure GB I'll likely play it, but with either a red or white splash I think I like Mistcutter Hydra more. It checks Jace (or any other PW), it still passes the Strix test, it gets around TNN, can usually beat an Angler, dodges Terminus for a turn, can sometimes surprise ANT, and so on. It does die to black and white removal, but I think that dodging blue is pretty relevant. Plus, I like that it can be tutored from either Recruiter or from Ranger, so it could fit into a lot of pretty versatile strategies. It does play poorly with GSZ though.

Not every creature has to be a gsz target. I do like the fact that my rhino list can tutor for every creature given enough mana, but it isn't a requirement. Strix is another example of the isn't hit by gsz but too strong to pass up kind of creature.

If TNN, or blue heavy decks are your concern then it is definitely worth considering. The thing I don't like about it is that it can be blocked forever by pyromancer tokens, but not all cards are perfect for all situations.


Hi. I'm going to take a part in bigger tournament and need some of your advice ;)
Here's my decklist in which I need some help:

I'll try to borrow bayou and savannah but don't if I can ;)
LANDS 22
1 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

CREATURES 16
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Veteran Explorer

INSTANTS and SORC. 17
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Painful Truths
4 Path to Exile

OTHER SPELLS 5
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Elspeth Knight Errant


SIDEBOARD 11
2 Carpet of Flowers (got playset)
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Slaughter Games
1 Vraska the Unseen
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Golgari Charm


Any suggestions? I have Tireless tracker, thragtusk, thrun,

I'm not sure if the taiga is worth it just for slaughter games, not with Lost Legacy around. 4 Rhino's might also be a lot but that is as much preference as anything else. If you have a dryad arbor I might suggest cutting taiga for it since Arbor makes meren more worthwhile.

If you cut the 4th rhino, Thrun is a nice 4 drop that can push some players to the brink with hexproof and regen.

[Gruby]

Slaughter games is mostly because I'm out of cash ATM and I owe those cards. Is +1swamp +1plains good replacement for duals?

Anything about sideboard?

[Brael]

Slaughter games is mostly because I'm out of cash ATM and I owe those cards. Is +1swamp +1plains good replacement for duals?

Anything about sideboard?

Stretching into more colors, when you don't have the manabase for minimal colors is a recipe for disaster.

[p.faul01]

Not every creature has to be a gsz target. I do like the fact that my rhino list can tutor for every creature given enough mana, but it isn't a requirement. Strix is another example of the isn't hit by gsz but too strong to pass up kind of creature.

If TNN, or blue heavy decks are your concern then it is definitely worth considering. The thing I don't like about it is that it can be blocked forever by pyromancer tokens, but not all cards are perfect for all situations.



I'm not sure if the taiga is worth it just for slaughter games, not with Lost Legacy around. 4 Rhino's might also be a lot but that is as much preference as anything else. If you have a dryad arbor I might suggest cutting taiga for it since Arbor makes meren more worthwhile.

If you cut the 4th rhino, Thrun is a nice 4 drop that can push some players to the brink with hexproof and regen.First of all: Hi guys, I'm silently following the thread for a while and am currently building a junk list. So really happy to see someone posting a rhino list again.
I agree that the red splash is not necessary for slaughter games only. Guess replacing duals with basics will screw some games. My variant is to invest in shock duals first. So rhino "kind of" reduces the life loss.
Regarding sideboard: I like to be interactive with graveyards from turn 0-1. So faerie macabre/ surgical extraction are my budget/non budget choices. Personally I think 2 golgari charms should be good against a huge part of the meta. Hits strix, TNN, thalia, pyro, goblin tokens.
Thanks guys for the active discussions about this fun deck :)

Gesendet von meinem SM-J320F mit Tapatalk

[square_two]

Slaughter games is mostly because I'm out of cash ATM and I owe those cards. Is +1swamp +1plains good replacement for duals?

Anything about sideboard?

It can work, I'd want to have at least a couple Bayou though if possible - Overgrown Tomb can work in a pinch.

I always want a couple of fast graveyard hate in order to combat reanimator/dredge/storm variants/belcher, but that's just me. Faerie Macabres can be the cheapest version of that. Next would be Surgical Extractions. Spellbombs aren't bad though, I could see them being fine in the grindy matches where you want to shut off Snapcaster or Angler - I sometimes see Czech running them, for instance, primarily because they replace themselves.

Edit: agree with @p.faul01 on this. Also I like having at least 5 sweepers in my 75. Typically 3 in main (deeds/deluge) and then 2 more side. A second Golgari Charm could be worth it, that's the cheaper alternative to Deluge.

Best walkers to bring in are going to be combat walkers that can benefit from grindy matchups. Garruk Relentless or Gideon could be better replacements for Elspeth or Vraska, for instance. Although at the moment I've been very fond of Chokes to fight those blue midrangey/4c whatever decks. Choke is a pretty cheap pickup and I think is a good call right now.

Main think about Rhino right now is that it's a dog to Angler. Maybe replace one with Chameleon Colossus if you can? Least then you have an option if the opp has strixes/angler on board.

IMO Lost Legacy is much better than Slaughter Games if you aren't in red to being with. Coming down a turn earlier is HUGE against storm and sneak/show.

--------------

2nd Edit: Adding land + steve to my Helm Fit list seemed to really improve the consistency. 3-2 league last night and have a few other changes in mind. Coming to really love flip Nissa after seeing her in action. Hilarious to have a match against Dredge when you are running mainboard leylines :laugh:

[fireiced]

Have you tried Venser? It is an extra piece of interaction in fair match ups and has value in being picked up.

Also, against storm: infernal tutor, hold priority, crack led, cast tutor target, flash venser bounce spell with 0 mana floating must feel good.

I love Venser as a SnT target. Problem is I got only so much space for trying to shore up the horrid matchup that is Omni Show. Currently my slot for combo hate is taken by V.Clique


Double blue is an issue with Venser.

Double blue surprisingly is not a problem and I run MD 2x JTMS. You seem to have an aversion against U cards in general but that is ok (maybe due to some negative experiences you faced when playing U?)
Besides against combo I just go full on fetching duals where 3/5 of them have Island printed on them.

[Echelon]

Hi. I'm going to take a part in bigger tournament and need some of your advice ;)
Here's my decklist in which I need some help:

I'll try to borrow bayou and savannah but don't if I can ;)
LANDS 22
1 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

CREATURES 16
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Veteran Explorer

INSTANTS and SORC. 17
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Painful Truths
4 Path to Exile

OTHER SPELLS 5
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Elspeth Knight Errant


SIDEBOARD 11
2 Carpet of Flowers (got playset)
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Slaughter Games
1 Vraska the Unseen
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Golgari Charm


Any suggestions? I have Tireless tracker, thragtusk, thrun,

Well, for starters your manabase unfortunately is unstable, which means you'll lose more games to colour screw than you should. I'd recommend more fetchlands, less basics. Also, fetchlands are more important than duals. A 10 fetchland manabase w/ 6 basics and 1 of each (shock)dual works perfectly fine and is relatively budget friendly. You want to fetch basics as much as possible anyway (b/c fuck you, Wasteland).

Your list is also very top heavy and light on library manipulation/CA, which means variance will be more likely to bite you in the ass. Try to run some number of Mirri's Guile/Sylvan Library to help with that, if you can.


I'm not sure if the taiga is worth it just for slaughter games, not with Lost Legacy around. 4 Rhino's might also be a lot but that is as much preference as anything else. If you have a dryad arbor I might suggest cutting taiga for it since Arbor makes meren more worthwhile.

If you cut the 4th rhino, Thrun is a nice 4 drop that can push some players to the brink with hexproof and regen.

I don't particularly care for Thrun. His body is too small to be impressive. Perhaps in SFM builds. If you don't run SFM, just go w/ Siege Rhino. I do agree w/ Lost Legacy over Slaughter Games and Dryad Arbor to enable some clever plays.


Slaughter games is mostly because I'm out of cash ATM and I owe those cards. Is +1swamp +1plains good replacement for duals?

Anything about sideboard?

To further expand on your manabase - what you should try to aim for is to hit 14 initial manasources (meaning lands that can get you mana of a certain colour on T1) for as many colours as you can. Green is an absolute must, others can be at around 12/13 although I prefer to keep those at 14 as well. Since fetchlands can theoretically get you any colour of mana (as long as you run the appropriate (shock)duals), they count as +1 for all colours. This is why it's more important to get your fetchlands before any actual duals. Shockduals are a fine replacement until you can upgrade those. Bayou first (which sucks b/c that one's most spendy), Savannah second, Scrubland last.

As for SBs, I can recommend you mine.
3 Lost Legacy
3 Duress
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm
1 Gaddock Teeg

It hozes combo, which is easily your worst MU, and individual cards are pretty good in various MUs.


Stretching into more colors, when you don't have the manabase for minimal colors is a recipe for disaster.

This!


First of all: Hi guys, I'm silently following the thread for a while and am currently building a junk list. So really happy to see someone posting a rhino list again.
I agree that the red splash is not necessary for slaughter games only. Guess replacing duals with basics will screw some games. My variant is to invest in shock duals first. So rhino "kind of" reduces the life loss.
Regarding sideboard: I like to be interactive with graveyards from turn 0-1. So faerie macabre/ surgical extraction are my budget/non budget choices. Personally I think 2 golgari charms should be good against a huge part of the meta. Hits strix, TNN, thalia, pyro, goblin tokens.
Thanks guys for the active discussions about this fun deck :)

Gesendet von meinem SM-J320F mit Tapatalk

Hopefully above bits on SB and manabases helped you out a bit.


It can work, I'd want to have at least a couple Bayou though if possible - Overgrown Tomb can work in a pinch.

I always want a couple of fast graveyard hate in order to combat reanimator/dredge/storm variants/belcher, but that's just me. Faerie Macabres can be the cheapest version of that. Next would be Surgical Extractions. Spellbombs aren't bad though, I could see them being fine in the grindy matches where you want to shut off Snapcaster or Angler - I sometimes see Czech running them, for instance, primarily because they replace themselves.

Edit: agree with @p.faul01 on this. Also I like having at least 5 sweepers in my 75. Typically 3 in main (deeds/deluge) and then 2 more side. A second Golgari Charm could be worth it, that's the cheaper alternative to Deluge.

Best walkers to bring in are going to be combat walkers that can benefit from grindy matchups. Garruk Relentless or Gideon could be better replacements for Elspeth or Vraska, for instance. Although at the moment I've been very fond of Chokes to fight those blue midrangey/4c whatever decks. Choke is a pretty cheap pickup and I think is a good call right now.

Main think about Rhino right now is that it's a dog to Angler. Maybe replace one with Chameleon Colossus if you can? Least then you have an option if the opp has strixes/angler on board.

IMO Lost Legacy is much better than Slaughter Games if you aren't in red to being with. Coming down a turn earlier is HUGE against storm and sneak/show.

--------------

2nd Edit: Adding land + steve to my Helm Fit list seemed to really improve the consistency. 3-2 league last night and have a few other changes in mind. Coming to really love flip Nissa after seeing her in action. Hilarious to have a match against Dredge when you are running mainboard leylines :laugh:

I agree w/ all of this!

@the new guys. I'd be happy to share my current Junk list with you guys, if you want it. Just let me know.

[Paranoid__Android]

Which planeswalkers are now played in Nic Fit mainly? Except LilianaOTVeil. :D

[pettdan]

Which planeswalkers are now played in Nic Fit mainly? Except LilianaOTVeil. :D

You'll be getting a lot of answers to that question.. :)

Nissa, Vital Force: Most played plainswalker, probably. Provides good clock and board presence, can rebuy things like Deed and the expensive cards or even herself (second copy) and has a great card advantage ultimate that you can reach after 1 turn.

Jace, the Mind Sculptor: Quite popular in BUG-builds.

Nissa, Vastwood Seer: A ramp card [edit: or well, it doesn't technically ramp you but it fills a similar role] that creates 4/4 tokens and draws cards, sometimes played.

Kaya, Ghost Assassin: Not played that much but seems to be liked because of the potential board presence in blinking creatures and because of the card advantage.


These are the most common ones I can think of right now.


Edit: Maybe some innovation could be done trying these two (probably already commented on, maybe worth reconsidering):

Gideon of the Trials: Like Gaddock he can win g1 vs Storm while also providing relevant board presence. Relevant vs Marit Lage too, if there is a chump blocker around.

Chandra, Torch of Defiance: Protects herself and draws cards, provides win condition too. Maybe she could help make a red, grindy shell more competitive.

[Kobra_D]

I don't particularly care for Thrun.
Thrun isn't my first choice either, I was going off of what they listed as available quickly at the bottom. I never loved 4 rhinos though. With Stronghold, meren, and gsz it's easy enough to storm off every turn with a rhino at some point with only 3. That just opens up 1 slot as a gsz target for that nic fit tech. In that regard I might recommend qasali pridemage over reclamation sage. Or even just moving Teeg to the main, it does help in a lot of match ups.



Kaya, Ghost Assassin

I like Kaya in my Junk sideboard when miracles was around. I've been less excited about this card otherwise.

__________________________________
Last night for NicFitTober I took the Dino Shift list posted on page 123 by Arianrhod.
I made a couple of changes, partly because I couldn't get a prime time by Wednesday and partly because I wanted a slightly different feel.


4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Regisaur Alpha
1 Thragtusk
1 Ripjaw Raptor

3 Cabal Therapy
1 Thought Seize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Kolaghan's Command

2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Burning Wish
2 Scapeshift

2 Abrupt Decay

1 Nissa, Vital Force

2 Sylvan Library
3 Pernicious Deed

3 Badlands
2 Taiga
1 Bayou
1 Sheltered Thicket
3 Forest
2 Swamp
3 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills

sb::
1 Scapeshift
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Painful Truths
1 Lost Legacy
1 Slaughter Games
1 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Fiery Confluence
1 Kozileks Return
1 Life from the Loam


The main difference is that I have a weaker mana base (lack of duals), and went smaller on the creatures to put in more discard (I might have over compensated for playing Temur the last 2 weeks).

The list worked well and was a lot of fun to play. It went 3-1 losing to Maverick, and then beating dredge, pox, and D&T.

Maverick was a bit of a bad break, I had 6 lands, and burning wish. So I wished for a scapeshift hoping to draw 1 more land and kill them next turn. I should have just held wish because I drew my 2 scapeshifts back to back after that. I was under pressure in game 2 and that was the wrong line. I don't remember g1 too well but it involved trading a lot of resources back and forth where I ended up librarying worse than they did.

Dredge was fine. Maindeck scooze and drs is a problem, post board spellbombs and surgicals are a house.

Pox was sweet, really grindy, took time to really have to think about plays. But Regisaur protecting itself off of edicts, e wit providing another 2 for 1, and sylvan library helped me grind out in game 3.

D&T he scooped t go to time, but I've played this match up before. Dino's can run over taxes which is nice, and valakut helps close out mom's or thalia's or just something wearing a sword. Not a given by any stretch of the imagination but I'll put us starting at a 55/45 preferred.

All in all, I only got to scapeshift kill once. I have not played a lot with the deck, but I felt it would have come up more often (maybe I just need prime time for that to happen). Dino's felt great. I did find myself aware of carnage tyrant would have closed some positions more easily than ripjaw raptor but raptor was in a draft of mine while carnage was not *Kanye shrug*.

I did find myself scapeshifting for more Courser and Tracker triggers though. I guess the take away for me was that a strong board state is almost as good as a combo kill.

[square_two]

Which planeswalkers are now played in Nic Fit mainly? Except LilianaOTVeil. :D

@pettdan answered well. Nissa, VF is probably the most popular right now. Does everything you want in pretty much every matchup. Haste-kill Jace, quick damage against combo / recur disruption pieces when applicable, card draw in grindy games. I've been running a couple lists that have 2 and she is bonkers.

I've been more and more impressed by Nissa Vastwood Seer the more I play her now that I'm getting back into non-Nyx builds.

Garruk Relentless became a lot better after the walker change - you can play multiple a lot more easily since you can have both sides out at the same time. Shoot down a deathrite, start making 1/1's and you can play a second copy. He was the sort of go-to combat walker when needing one against Miracles. Junk has access to Gideon now which is a pretty similar role. Ditto with small Elspeth.

Elspeth, Sun's Champion is probably the best 6-drop if you are in white.

I've got a BUG walker fit list somewhere with both Jace TMS and Nissa, Steward of Elements. Really want to try those together since you can Brainstorm with Jace to setup a creature on top and then get it into play for free (and uncounterably) with Nissa.

Liliana, the Last Hope definitely fine in an elves or D&T-heavy meta. I've not tried her extensively for general use. Compliments a recursive, graveyard focused deck such as one with Meren / Loam shenanigans / Intuition / Recurring Nightmare.

Or just play them all.

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Oath of Nissa
2 Collective Brutality

1 Gideon of the Trials
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Kaya, Ghost Assassin
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
1 Karn Liberated
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Ancient Tomb
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

[Navsi]

Which planeswalkers are now played in Nic Fit mainly? Except LilianaOTVeil. :D

Lili Veil isn't very good for us to be honest. We have a high individual card power so discarding hurts us, and we don't have cards we can recur from the yard to fuel her - Loam doesn't work well for us because of Explorer's anti-synergy with Wasteland, and Punishing Fire is pretty bad right now because of Leovold.

I'd say the best walker for us right now is Nissa, Vastwood Seer. Mainly because she is zenithable. 4/4 tokens aren't bad right now, and she straight up wrecks control decks. Nissa, Vital Force is solid too, but you can only afford to dedicate so many slots to 5+ mana cards that doesn't do anything to a combo deck.

Blue: JTMS is the clear standout. As far as things to be using bonus mana on turn 2-4 on, he's definitely up there. He isn't as good a win condition for us as he is for other decks (because we can't reliably protect him on the stack) but he's a good source of cards advantage for flooding the board in threats.

White: Kaya is great, mainly because like Jace she isn't completely dead against combo decks. Gideon Trials may be similar but probably needs more testing, and WW is a disadvantage. If you want a sideboard game winner vs control decks, Elspeth Sun's Champion is solid.

Red: Chandra, ToD is probably your best option in a fair deck. In Sneak, exiling your only Emrakul is pretty awful, so take care. Might still be the best choice though.

[abbudao]

@Leshrac82, are you still playing the NicPost list? If so, do you have any news about it?
I've been lurking this thread way too long seeking for a post of you :laugh:
Although I'm in love with the deck, I'am really having a hard time playing with it correctly. Would you mind also giving me some enlightenment on how should I mulligan? :wink:

[Brael]

Double blue surprisingly is not a problem and I run MD 2x JTMS. You seem to have an aversion against U cards in general but that is ok (maybe due to some negative experiences you faced when playing U?)
Besides against combo I just go full on fetching duals where 3/5 of them have Island printed on them.

I doubt it's not a problem, more likely you're just not noticing it. And I have no aversion to blue cards, there's a lot of fun, powerful, and cool blue cards in the format. I just don't think it's a strong color in Nic Fit (and I started playing this deck, by playing BUG). Most of the good blue cards require too much of a commitment to blue, and when blue can only be your tertiary color due to Veteran Explorer and Cabal Therapy demanding a higher priority for your green/black mana, it makes most double blue cards difficult. It's not just blue where I have this criticism, I feel the same way about Palace Jailer and Sigarda in white.

The number one priority for a card is that you can cast it when you want to cast it. You can't always do that with double blue spells, and as a result it hurts consistency.

[p.faul01]

I don't particularly care for Thrun. His body is too small to be impressive. Perhaps in SFM builds. If you don't run SFM, just go w/ Siege Rhino. I do agree w/ Lost Legacy over Slaughter Games and Dryad Arbor to enable some clever plays.

agreed. I also prefer to stay with the rhino plan.


As for SBs, I can recommend you mine.
3 Lost Legacy
3 Duress
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm
1 Gaddock Teeg

cool sideboard. Also very budget friendly from my point of view. I am still a bit hesitant about buying thoughtseizes. But seems like duress is reasonable enough :)


Hopefully above bits on SB and manabases helped you out a bit.

for me, they did! thanks!


@the new guys. I'd be happy to share my current Junk list with you guys, if you want it. Just let me know.
oh yes, I'd love to see your list. I will attach my current list aswell. Some card choices from my side: I added a lot of lifegain to compensate the shock duals, but some can probably be replaced with something else. I tried Kaya and am really fighting to keep her in the rhino shell. I think all of her abilities are good in the surrounding of 4 rhinos. I just recently exchanged Nissa VF in the main with 1 crop rotation. Didn't have time to test it, but I had the weird situation that I always blew up my own 5/5 lands with deeds.. That is really counterproductive to the deck plan. Someone else had issues with that? :rolleyes:


4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk

1 Crop Rotation
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Painful Truths
1 Vindicate

1 Sylvan Library
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Kaya, Ghost Assassin

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath


SB:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Pithing Needle
3 Lost Legacy
2 Golgari Charm
3 Duress
2 Faerie Macabre

[Brael]

I would consider a Murmuring Bosk over Swamp #2.

Also, I think I would play a second Thragtusk over the first Courser. You need a lot of redraws to make Courser good these days.

[Mr. Safety]

Hi everyone, hope I'm not causing a disturbance, but I just purchased some cards to be able to play the core of this deck (Explorer/GSZ/Therapy.) If its ok I'd like to ask a few (basic) questions about the deck. I have read the primer mostly through, but the deck has been a round a while and I know its in flux due to Top being banned.

1) How many basics do you typically run? I would think 5-6 would be a good starting point but I've seen up to 7. As I'm new to Nic Fit I'm sure there is an optimal number.
2) Has anyone stayed to strictly only b/g colors or is there always a splash? I know there is an established BUG list, and I see folks have been splashing white in recent comments, and historically red for Grove/Fires.
3) Deathrite Shaman seems less important in this deck than other bgx decks...is 2-3 ok or should there be 4?
4) How important is Pernicious Deed? I have 3, and I love the card, and the concept of big mana into Deed hits me in the feels.
5) Why don't more people play this? Just in testing I have seen 5 lands on turn 3 fairly consistently if I have Explorer/sac outlet available.

Thanks in advance, and sorry if I disturbed your thread with seemingly obvious questions.

[Kobra_D]

@pettdan answered well. Nissa, VF is probably the most popular right now. Does everything you want in pretty much every matchup. Haste-kill Jace, quick damage against combo / recur disruption pieces when applicable, card draw in grindy games. I've been running a couple lists that have 2 and she is bonkers.

I've been more and more impressed by Nissa Vastwood Seer the more I play her now that I'm getting back into non-Nyx builds.

Garruk Relentless became a lot better after the walker change - you can play multiple a lot more easily since you can have both sides out at the same time. Shoot down a deathrite, start making 1/1's and you can play a second copy. He was the sort of go-to combat walker when needing one against Miracles. Junk has access to Gideon now which is a pretty similar role. Ditto with small Elspeth.

Elspeth, Sun's Champion is probably the best 6-drop if you are in white.

I've got a BUG walker fit list somewhere with both Jace TMS and Nissa, Steward of Elements. Really want to try those together since you can Brainstorm with Jace to setup a creature on top and then get it into play for free (and uncounterably) with Nissa.

Liliana, the Last Hope definitely fine in an elves or D&T-heavy meta. I've not tried her extensively for general use. Compliments a recursive, graveyard focused deck such as one with Meren / Loam shenanigans / Intuition / Recurring Nightmare.

Or just play them all.

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Oath of Nissa
2 Collective Brutality

1 Gideon of the Trials
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Kaya, Ghost Assassin
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
1 Karn Liberated
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Ancient Tomb
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

4 Oath of Nissa and not a single Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker to be found? Seems like something can be dropped for the last inclusion, maybe this is just me unreasonably wanting to slam down Nicol Bolas.

[square_two]

Hi everyone, hope I'm not causing a disturbance, but I just purchased some cards to be able to play the core of this deck (Explorer/GSZ/Therapy.) If its ok I'd like to ask a few (basic) questions about the deck. I have read the primer mostly through, but the deck has been a round a while and I know its in flux due to Top being banned.

Hiya @Mr. Safety


1) How many basics do you typically run? I would think 5-6 would be a good starting point but I've seen up to 7. As I'm new to Nic Fit I'm sure there is an optimal number.

7 is a pretty standard number. Very usual to see 3 Forest, 2 Swamp, 2 of the other color basics. Being able to cast everything with only basics can be nice.


2) Has anyone stayed to strictly only b/g colors or is there always a splash? I know there is an established BUG list, and I see folks have been splashing white in recent comments, and historically red for Grove/Fires.

The main argument is that splashing gives you access to powerful cards with little cost. White provides removal (swords/path) and some better hate cards, red provides some different engines, blue provides different selection tools. Good way to think of nic fit is basically Vet/Therapy/(GSZ) core with various packages. I've seen walkers, stoneforge-equipment, adademy rector, pfire, burning wish, sneak attack, scapeshift...there's a lot you can assemble around that core.

You can look a few pages back to see some b/g decks that are lower to the ground with Dark Confidant and Crop Rotation, some of those look more like Deadguy Ale + Vet decks. Bob + Tireless Tracker can do a lot to stay nimble and make up for any disadvantage. I've been experimenting with Helm fit, using maindeck Leyline of the Void + Helm of Obedience combo and it is currently B/G. You do gain access to potentially run Hymns with b/g. More consistent mana, but that has more to do with overall curve and card selection choices.


3) Deathrite Shaman seems less important in this deck than other bgx decks...is 2-3 ok or should there be 4?

Yes, he's less important. If your version focuses on getting to 3-4 mana asap, then he could be used - I ran 1-2 in Sneak Fit...but Sakura-Tribe Elder does a great job as well. Personally I do like having 3-4 Deathrites in BUG fit but that is a very different styled deck and is lower cmc, uses deed more as an emergency valve. I've been on 0 deathrite versions of Junk and Jund and B/G and been very fine without him.


4) How important is Pernicious Deed? I have 3, and I love the card, and the concept of big mana into Deed hits me in the feels.

3 is all you need. Very typical to see 3 Deed maindeck, and then 2ish other sweepers in the side, like 2 Deluges. Sometimes 2 Deed 1 Deluge main feels better depending on what you are running. I'm in love with multiple Trackers and so I like a deluge to help avoid losing clues. Same could be said for SFM equipment lists.


5) Why don't more people play this? Just in testing I have seen 5 lands on turn 3 fairly consistently if I have Explorer/sac outlet available.

Deck has a lot of bad stigma. Attracts casuals who don't understand the finer points of deck construction (and the lack of established lists hurts them there). People tend to play it for fun, or advertise it in passing - I'm not familiar with any long-term veterans who post regular content or stream. (Stryfo is an exception on twitch, though he mostly plays punishing thieves - he is a very good brewer and does fairly well with some of his BUG and other nic fit lists). Deck's strength relies very highly on making good use of Cabal Therapy - it's a world of difference in effectiveness between an amateur vs someone who can consistently hit in the blind. Deck in general has consistency issues since it is a ramp deck - GSZ does not always adequately bridge the gap and your beasties will sometimes show up in hand too early...we (typically) don't have Brainstorm/Ponder to cheaply fix hand issues. 5 lands in play is great, until you topdeck 3 more while dying to a flipped Delver.

Other than that, deck can be a blast to play and will usually eat up delver and fair decks without much problem. Heck, just hitting with Therapy feels great, and is the main reason I switched to nic fit. Combo is going to be more of a struggle, and we do not like blue control rising back into dominance. I enjoy the "unsolved" mystery that is nic fit and there is more room to explore here than other archetypes have available.

[square_two]

4 Oath of Nissa and not a single Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker to be found? Seems like something can be dropped for the last inclusion, maybe this is just me unreasonably wanting to slam down Nicol Bolas.

Hah, I've run Eureka-Order decks before and having both Nicol Bolas + Ugin out at the same time is a joy to behold. They are best buds. Original list from Stryfo had it, I think - he might have some videos on twitch on it but I haven't watched. I updated it a tad (Brutalities) and figure Ugin is enough of a top-end.

[ObligatoryReference]

<deleted>

Other than that, deck can be a blast to play and will usually eat up delver and fair decks without much problem. Heck, just hitting with Therapy feels great, and is the main reason I switched to nic fit. Combo is going to be more of a struggle, and we do not like blue control rising back into dominance. I enjoy the "unsolved" mystery that is nic fit and there is more room to explore here than other archetypes have available.

I just want to expand on this a bit.

My first experience with Legacy - aside from an ill-advised foray with Oops All Spells - was Grixis Delver, which I played for about a year and a half (up until GP Vegas). Now, Grixis Delver is a great deck. It's around 50/50 against most of the field, there are plenty of interesting lines, and what I call the 'knife-fight-in-a-phone-booth' style can be really intense. On the other hand, the deck is pretty rigid. Your only real decision is whether to play the Cabal Therapy or Stifle package, and there aren't many flex spots available outside of meta-specific sideboarding.

Nic Fit is just about the polar opposite of this. On one hand, there are a lot of 90/10 or 10/90 matchups, and you can get wrecked by unfair decks. However, the deck itself is wide open - pretty much every spot aside from VetExplorer/CabalTherapy is a flex spot. Your lines are going to be incredibly diverse (especially with the 'toolbox' builds), and damn, when you hit with a blind Cabal Therapy it feels good. Also (and I have a feeling this is common even when it's not acknowledged) I love when I play a card and my opponent furrows his brow and asks if he can read it.

Let me put it this way: when I win a game with Grixis Delver I feel relieved. When I when a game with Nic Fit, I feel elated. To me, that's way better. I'll probably keep my Grixis Delver deck, and if I was going to a big tournament tomorrow, I'd probably play it. But for my weekly Legacy, on MTGO, and maybe even next year's GPs, I'll probably be playing Nic Fit, in whatever weird variation I've found most fun.

-----

[Brael]

Hi everyone, hope I'm not causing a disturbance, but I just purchased some cards to be able to play the core of this deck (Explorer/GSZ/Therapy.) If its ok I'd like to ask a few (basic) questions about the deck. I have read the primer mostly through, but the deck has been a round a while and I know its in flux due to Top being banned.

1) How many basics do you typically run? I would think 5-6 would be a good starting point but I've seen up to 7. As I'm new to Nic Fit I'm sure there is an optimal number.
2) Has anyone stayed to strictly only b/g colors or is there always a splash? I know there is an established BUG list, and I see folks have been splashing white in recent comments, and historically red for Grove/Fires.
3) Deathrite Shaman seems less important in this deck than other bgx decks...is 2-3 ok or should there be 4?
4) How important is Pernicious Deed? I have 3, and I love the card, and the concept of big mana into Deed hits me in the feels.
5) Why don't more people play this? Just in testing I have seen 5 lands on turn 3 fairly consistently if I have Explorer/sac outlet available.

Thanks in advance, and sorry if I disturbed your thread with seemingly obvious questions.

1. Basic counts can vary. 6 or 7 is the typical amount, I lean towards 6 as a default but there are some reasons to run more or less. Sakura Tribe Elder and Nissa, Vastwood Seer each usually want an additional basic, and if you try one of the sub 4 Veteran Explorer decks (like the Cloudpost list) you can get by with less.

2. A splash isn't necessary. This deck tends to attract a low of timmies and casuals, and the result is that people usually play with more colors but it's not necessary. I (usually) play pure BG lists, rubblekill does too, and so does square_two. Grove/Fire doesn't work too well lately, Leovold has really checked that particular combo. I would say the default list is something that splashes white for Sigarda, Path, and hate cards. There's ways to make the deck work in any color. I tend to be of the opinion that BG>BG Colorless>Junk>Jund>BUG>4 color but a lot of people don't share my opinion.

3. DRS is usually only played as a 1-2 of in the main. I prefer 2 but it's not uncommon to only see 1. I do think that you generally want 4 DRS in the list though. What I try to do with my SB is to build a mana ramp package that can be swapped with Veteran Explorers for the matches where those are bad. So while I run 4 Vet 2 DRS MB, I'll include a Carpet of Flowers, 2 DRS, and a Sakura Tribe Elder in the SB.

4. Deed is going to depend on your strategy, I find that in the SE style builds, which is what I run that Deed is pretty bad because my curve is so low to the ground (it uses mana acceleration to achieve high card velocity and go wide rather than play a single big thing going tall). But in traditional builds it's good. If you're going to use it, I think 2-3 of is best. 4 tends to be too many, 1 is usually too few. I've probably had my best results with 3.

5. There's a few reasons people don't play it. The first, is that most people in Legacy enjoy playing the cantrip cabal, and that style doesn't play well in this deck. The second is that it doesn't actually do that well on streams, so it doesn't generate much interest. Third is that most builds have pretty bad combo matchups and being a deck without FoW, you're playing the format in hard mode, and most don't know how to play it successfully that way (or just have no desire to). Four is that the timmy nature of the deck tends to attract a lot more casual players which lowers the average placing in tournaments and makes it look worse. In truth, the deck is not the best deck in the format... but a good player with a good build can do pretty darn well. My own builds try to address most of these issues, and they're relatively successful at doing so, but those builds tend to not be popular because they don't play the big creatures that people are generally trying to play with a ramp deck.

In general, there's a lot of freedom in how you build the deck, and there's a lot of powerful cards available, so it's the sort of deck where good deck builders tend to do well and bad deck builders get punished pretty severely.

[Mr. Safety]

First off, thanks to square_2, brael, and ObligatoryReference for being such stellar gentle-folk and giving me some great feedback and welcome to the thread.

I was jamming this for a couple games on magic workstation, just to see what it could do. I was *floored* with the powerful lines the deck could take. T1 blind therapy, t2 explorer>flashback therapy>hymn. Here is the list I was tooling around with:

4x vet explorer
3x deathrite shaman
4x vampire hexmage
1x eternal witness
1x thragtusk
4x cabal therapy
2x thoughtseize
2x abrupt decay
4x crop rotation
3x hymn
2x deed
2x death cloud (yes you read that correctly)
1x green suns zenith
1x life from the loan
2x sylvan library
4x verdant
1x bloodstained mire
1x windswept heath
1x bayou
1x overgrown tomb
3x swamp
2x forest
4x wasteland
2x urborg
1x karakas
1x bojuka big
1x maze of ith
1x thespian stage
1x dark depths

Sideboard
1x scavenging ooze
1x thrun
2x choke
2x pithing needle
2x surgical extraction
2x diabolic edict
1x toxic deluge
2x golgari charm
1x maelstrom pulse
1x primeval titan

I know the list needs a ton of work, but it was obvious that the core was very powerful. I may have fallen headfirst into the stereotypical casual/timmy category, especially with trying death cloud, but it doesn't change the fact that I think this deck could do serious damage in my metagame.

Feedback on obvious flaws (that I don't see) are greatly appreciated. I like the depths package, but I'm not married to it. I also know the gsz package I have is minimal, I just couldn't get anything else in after hexmage/rotation got added.

[Kobra_D]

First off, thanks to square_2, brael, and ObligatoryReference for being such stellar gentle-folk and giving me some great feedback and welcome to the thread.

I was jamming this for a couple games on magic workstation, just to see what it could do. I was *floored* with the powerful lines the deck could take. T1 blind therapy, t2 explorer>flashback therapy>hymn. Here is the list I was tooling around with:

4x vet explorer
3x deathrite shaman
4x vampire hexmage
1x eternal witness
1x thragtusk
4x cabal therapy
2x thoughtseize
2x abrupt decay
4x crop rotation
3x hymn
2x deed
2x death cloud (yes you read that correctly)
1x green suns zenith
1x life from the loan
2x sylvan library
4x verdant
1x bloodstained mire
1x windswept heath
1x bayou
1x overgrown tomb
3x swamp
2x forest
4x wasteland
2x urborg
1x karakas
1x bojuka big
1x maze of ith
1x thespian stage
1x dark depths

Sideboard
1x scavenging ooze
1x thrun
2x choke
2x pithing needle
2x surgical extraction
2x diabolic edict
1x toxic deluge
2x golgari charm
1x maelstrom pulse
1x primeval titan

I know the list needs a ton of work, but it was obvious that the core was very powerful. I may have fallen headfirst into the stereotypical casual/timmy category, especially with trying death cloud, but it doesn't change the fact that I think this deck could do serious damage in my metagame.

Feedback on obvious flaws (that I don't see) are greatly appreciated. I like the depths package, but I'm not married to it. I also know the gsz package I have is minimal, I just couldn't get anything else in after hexmage/rotation got added.

I love eternal witness. Sometimes she isn't right but I always try to have her at 2. With crop rotations you may want a sejire steppe, I've seen it work wonders in turbo depths I imagine it would do well here.

Other than that, nic fit depths looks sweet. I don't know how much your trying to grind out opponents versus win with a 20/20 but prime time might be better than thraggy in the top end. That, however, is pure speculation on my part so take it with a huge train of salt.

On a different note: how many nissas are needed to have the deck be considered Nissa tribal? I'll hopefully have a list up tomorrow that I'm toying with, but 4 doesn't seem like enough to get the whole oops all pw feel.

[Brael]

On a different note: how many nissas are needed to have the deck be considered Nissa tribal? I'll hopefully have a list up tomorrow that I'm toying with, but 4 doesn't seem like enough to get the whole oops all pw feel.

The problem here is that there's not enough Nissa's that play well together. There's only two good ones, and possibly a third with the GU version... if you can maintain a high enough creature count.

Vastwood Seer and Vital Force play well together, but none of the other Nissa's really get along. If you want PW tribal I think you would have better luck with Garruk in green, or just play Gideons.

[Brael]

Feedback on obvious flaws (that I don't see) are greatly appreciated. I like the depths package, but I'm not married to it. I also know the gsz package I have is minimal, I just couldn't get anything else in after hexmage/rotation got added.

Base black with Eternal Witness and Crop Rotation isn't going to work. The best DD build right now is the Cloudpost build.

[Echelon]

Thrun isn't my first choice either, I was going off of what they listed as available quickly at the bottom. I never loved 4 rhinos though. With Stronghold, meren, and gsz it's easy enough to storm off every turn with a rhino at some point with only 3. That just opens up 1 slot as a gsz target for that nic fit tech. In that regard I might recommend qasali pridemage over reclamation sage. Or even just moving Teeg to the main, it does help in a lot of match ups.

I'd play even more Rhinos if I could. I'll post my list below so you can see how I manoeuvred through the tech bit.


cool sideboard. Also very budget friendly from my point of view. I am still a bit hesitant about buying thoughtseizes. But seems like duress is reasonable enough :)[/cards]

Thanks. The thing is, most cards I want people to discard are non-creatures, so why bother to pay 2 extra life? In the Storm MUs it can be the difference between life and death. Sure, it can be awkward vs. Sneak & Show, but that's pretty much it.


Hi everyone

Hello to you too! Please always feel free to ask as many questions as you want! I believe the others have answered your questions so far already so I won't bother you with a third set of answers.

Alrighty, for those that were interested in my current list (I got some PMs too), here we go:

Manabase (21 - only do this if you've pushed down your curve appropriately, otherwise go for >=22 lands):
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower

Creature skeleton (20):
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Tireless Tracker
4 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

Consistency package (8):
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library

Removal Suite (11):
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Path to Exile
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge

Sideboard:
3 Lost Legacy
3 Duress
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pithing Needle
2 Golgari Charm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg

As you might see my list is relatively light on removal and quite heavy on creatures. That's b/c of several things. First and foremost, I like to abuse GSZ. Second, I value synergy. I run a lot of things that tend to have "cute" interactions with oneanother. Fetchlands for instance - why not run 8 like a normal person, right? Well, they play well w/ Tireless Tracker, Courser of Kruphix, Mirri's Guile and Sylvan Library so why not take advantage of that? It also makes it easier to just fetch basics. Dryad Arbor does well w/ GSZ (mimicking an Llanowar Elves on T1), CT, Meren and Courser of Kruphix + Volrath's Stronghold. The third reason is that I like to turn the tables on my opponent. I.e. rather than try to answer whatever my opponent does, I like to force them into the position where they need to answer whatever I'm doing. Be it a DRS/Scavenging Ooze messing with their gameplan, a Courser of Kruphix/Tireless Tracker threatening to let me get the upper hand in CA or a Siege Rhino (or 2) that starts to pressure them.

One thing I might have to address are the Mirri's Guiles. I run those basically to mimic the cantrip cartel's consistency, b/c that's what usually does us in in the long run - variance. With a Guile/Library out you get to look at more cards than most blue players do, giving you the ability to outmanoeuvre them. Guile doesn't replace itself and Library is definetely better in the long game, but I don't think I'll ever take them out of my list.

If you guys have any questions regarding the list or how it plays, just let me know.

[fireiced]

I doubt it's not a problem, more likely you're just not noticing it. And I have no aversion to blue cards, there's a lot of fun, powerful, and cool blue cards in the format. I just don't think it's a strong color in Nic Fit (and I started playing this deck, by playing BUG). Most of the good blue cards require too much of a commitment to blue, and when blue can only be your tertiary color due to Veteran Explorer and Cabal Therapy demanding a higher priority for your green/black mana, it makes most double blue cards difficult. It's not just blue where I have this criticism, I feel the same way about Palace Jailer and Sigarda in white.

The number one priority for a card is that you can cast it when you want to cast it. You can't always do that with double blue spells, and as a result it hurts consistency.

Thank you for your explanation I really do appreciate it. Yes I do feel the pinch in casting my Blue cantrips on time sometimes but those were in matchups where I am usually gifted a whole load of more time than other matchups.


Base black with Eternal Witness and Crop Rotation isn't going to work. The best DD build right now is the Cloudpost build.

Quite interested in this list, care to share or point me to the direction of the post?

[Echelon]

First off, thanks to square_2, brael, and ObligatoryReference for being such stellar gentle-folk and giving me some great feedback and welcome to the thread.

I was jamming this for a couple games on magic workstation, just to see what it could do. I was *floored* with the powerful lines the deck could take. T1 blind therapy, t2 explorer>flashback therapy>hymn. Here is the list I was tooling around with:

...List...

Sideboard
1x scavenging ooze
1x thrun
2x choke
2x pithing needle
2x surgical extraction
2x diabolic edict
1x toxic deluge
2x golgari charm
1x maelstrom pulse
1x primeval titan

I know the list needs a ton of work, but it was obvious that the core was very powerful. I may have fallen headfirst into the stereotypical casual/timmy category, especially with trying death cloud, but it doesn't change the fact that I think this deck could do serious damage in my metagame.

Feedback on obvious flaws (that I don't see) are greatly appreciated. I like the depths package, but I'm not married to it. I also know the gsz package I have is minimal, I just couldn't get anything else in after hexmage/rotation got added.

Your manabase needs work, it's unstable. Too few initial manasources for both your colours.

Since you're focusing on lands, how about Ramunap Excavator. It can regrow your combo pieces and generate a lot of value. I'd add a Volrath's Stronghold while you're at it. It allows you to go Ramunap -> regrow Stronghold, return Hexmage.

As for your SB - in what MUs do you think you'll need P. Titan/Thrun? It seems like a waste of SB space.

[pettdan]

I was jamming this for a couple games on magic workstation, just to see what it could do. I was *floored* with the powerful lines the deck could take. T1 blind therapy, t2 explorer>flashback therapy>hymn. Here is the list I was tooling around with:

[List]

I know the list needs a ton of work, but it was obvious that the core was very powerful. I may have fallen headfirst into the stereotypical casual/timmy category, especially with trying death cloud, but it doesn't change the fact that I think this deck could do serious damage in my metagame.

Feedback on obvious flaws (that I don't see) are greatly appreciated. I like the depths package, but I'm not married to it. I also know the gsz package I have is minimal, I just couldn't get anything else in after hexmage/rotation got added.

@Mr. Safety: I have a few thoughts that may or may not help you. Your list looks spicy and interesting, for sure. It kind of looks like a Turbo Depths list packing Veteran + Therapy, not that I have a lot of experience with that deck. And there's also the BG Loam Pox deck that is basically using Smallpox over the Veteran Explorers. Again this is a very rough comparison. So what is the advantage of using the Nic Fit shell? Well, I guess Depths + Stage requires 4 lands in play so you get to ramp into that, while using Therapy twice to clear the path for stack interaction with Marit Lage. Fair enough, that makes sense.

For me, the main question regarding this list is how you intend to benefit from the Nic Fit elements, and if you should utilize that capacity more. So that's the avenue I'll explore. Deed is great for sure, resetting the table if needed. It's similar to how it's used in BUG Reanimator Fit or Sneaky Fit (and said BG Loam Pox): you have a combo style win and when the opponent has established board control and a clock you get to reset the board, buying you more time to combo out for a very low cost. Another very synergetic card is Green Sun's Zenith. Of course there is not much room in your list for green creatures. The Witness seems nice since you get back whatever you need to disrupt the opponent or to combo out again. And gaining life from a Thragtusk can be good, giving you another turn or two to win. I'm thinking that the Vampire Hexmages seem a bit loose to me. You can't tutor for them, in this list, so you need 4 to be able to draw them. But you only have one Dark Depths, so unless you draw your one-off Life from the Loam (actually there's 1 Witness and 1 GSZ too, point may be moot) your second Hexmage will be a pretty unimpressive draw (have you ever felt that in your games?). The explosiveness probably makes up for that, but maybe you have some room to experiment with the Hexmage slots? They could go into e.g. 1-2 Ramunap Excavator, 1 Sylvan Safekeeper and 1-2 Green Sun's Zenith. That way you would build on the synergies of the Nic Fit shell. But you would lose out on explosiveness so it may not be better. It was my first thought anyway.

You are also very heavy on discard for a Nic Fit deck. Most lists only play 4 discard maindeck, a few add 1-2, especially being Collective Brutality since it plays the role of removal too. And your list plays 9 discard spells. With your fast combo kill that seems like a reasonable approach. Still, changing some of them into 1-2 Collective Brutalities would let you both interact with the opponent's hand and get rid of Deathrites that mess with Loam and Witness once you are past turn 3-4 and discard seems less important. And once you added CB to the maindeck, Lingering Souls [edit: ah, no white in the list, never mind] starts to look nice for the sideboard. It attacks on a different angle than Marit Lage (many small creatures), it hoses some of the hate that is brought in vs Marit Lage and it's good vs Planeswalkers and Delvers. No new tech really, just worth mentioning.

Other slots that seem like you could experiment with are Deathrite Shaman, 3 are a lot, and Veteran Explorer. Unless I'm aiming heavily for 6+ lands in play I usually prefer adding a GSZ (if playing less than 4, obviously) over the fourth copy of Veteran Explorer. Because that late game GSZ is so much better than a late game Veteran Explorer, while the early game GSZ is pretty good in relation to the early game Veteran Explorer. But this is probably controversial, and your list wants to be explosive so it makes some sense keeping Vet at 4 copies. Anyway reducing these by two would give you another two slots for GSZ + green creatures. I guess next you would need to consider what green creatures that would suit to cover up your weak matchups. Maybe Gaddock Teeg or Scavenging Ooze. Teeg locks down some bad stuff, like Natural Order vs Elves or win conditions vs Storm [edit: actually stopping FoW so you can Crop Rotate safely may come up too]. While Ooze is another life gainer (perhaps competing with the Thragtusk in your list) that lets you interact with the opponent's Life from the Loam, Snapcaster Mage etc. On the other hand Bojuka Bog already does that.

Well, that's my initial thoughts on seeing the list, just to hopefully give you some ideas on what other directions the list could take. It would be nice to hear you explain what role the deck would fill in your local metagame, and why you're not just playing Turbo Depths. I think that would answer how the deck can be developed.

[Mr. Safety]

Your manabase needs work, it's unstable. Too few initial manasources for both your colours.

Since you're focusing on lands, how about Ramunap Excavator. It can regrow your combo pieces and generate a lot of value. I'd add a Volrath's Stronghold while you're at it. It allows you to go Ramunap -> regrow Stronghold, return Hexmage.

As for your SB - in what MUs do you think you'll need P. Titan/Thrun? It seems like a waste of SB space.

It was a first-shot pass at a list, with only a basic understanding of what the deck does. I was throwing stuff against a wall and then coming here to see what sticks.

I knew the mana-base was going to need work, for sure. I would think Volrath's Stronghold would stretch the non-colored sources even further, though I think cutting a Wasteland would be fine. I really like the Ramanup Excavator idea, better than the singleton Loam. I'll definitely pick one up.

Thrun was just a generic anti-blue deck card, something that would be hard to deal with. I can see the argument for just not playing it at all if it isn't main, and I also was going back through the last 2-3 pages on this thread and see that some folks are dropping him entirely. Primeval Titan was another big beater for grindier matchups that could also double-tutor for Depths/Stage. Maybe he's a maindeck card, or another wasted slot.

My thinking on base black was to abuse Death Cloud (and Hexmage/Hymn obviously.) Instead of scaling threats up I was trying to scale up the control factor. I could easily see this getting to 6-7 mana in the midgame and being left with 3 lands while opponents are just wiped out. I've played Loam Pox in the past and Smallpox seems to be good, but I wanted greater control over the number (and the pox for1 doesn't seem strong enough when compared to DC for 2-3.) With Nic-Fit and its fast mana I saw Death Cloud as a way to zone in on the right number for maximum effectiveness/minimal setback on myself. Same reason for why I don't want Pox, I want to get the number right (and 2 is sometimes the best number.) I may be too far into timmy territory, if so, just say it. I can take it, I'm a grown-up (lol.)

Considering the big problem with my list (mana-base instability with base-black) I'm really curious what you guys would suggest to solve it. I'll propose some changes, and if you don't mind, let me know if I'm off or maybe a better idea. I won't repost the whole list, just changes and see what you think.

-1 Thoughtseize
-1 Death Cloud
+1 Green Sun's Zenith
+1 Dryad Arbor

This could solve the initial green-source problem that will halt the deck's progress. I would still need an initial green source (basically a fetch into Bayou) to get this correct for double black on turn 2.

-1 Loam
+1 Ramanup Excavator

This will allow another GSZ to work as a tutorable 'loam' effect, which could help grind out longer games. He makes my Wastelands better without having to spend mana every turn, but I'm not sure that's an issue (unless I Death Cloud.) My thought with loam was that it dodges Pernicious Deed, and Excavator does not.

-1 Eternal Witness
+1 Primeval Titan

The Witness was just a concession to historical context, based on the primer. I wasn't really looking for the fair shot at GG1 for it, but rather just wanting a GSZ target that could make incredibly good use of 4 mana. With the combo plan, going this deep into grind-town seems bad now. Excavator seems to be filling the recursion role just fine, especially when the recursion from the yard really wants to be lands anyways. Primeval Titan however is a double-tutor that should be easier to cast, even with base black, simply because with 6 lands at least 2 of them should produce green (or seven with one green + gsz, or Deathrite decides to help out.)

Those are small changes, but I think good ones. If there are more ideas, or just better ones, please let me know. I could easily see Death Cloud gone entirely. Its definitely a pet card, and I know pet cards are not conducive to serious play. I just love the card! If its a waste of a slot, please just say what would be better, I am open to criticism. I have a ton of g/b cards available, I've been playing those colors forever. I also have Scrublands available if anyone things a white splash accomplishes anything, but I wanted to stay focused on gb only due to effect of the colorless lands in the deck (wastelands, combo.)

[Echelon]

I'd advice against running Death Cloud as a way of trying to ramp up the control. You can't compete with the blue decks when it comes to the velocity of your control and consistency. You simply can't. Death Cloud is a big play that costs you your entire turn and easily folds to Daze/Spell Pierce/Force of Will. There's a reason why Pox-decks do very, very poorly.

As for the stability of your manabase - fetchlands, duals and 3 basics for each colour. Especially in a BG build, it should not be a problem to get enough initial manasources.

[Mr. Safety]

Well, that's my initial thoughts on seeing the list, just to hopefully give you some ideas on what other directions the list could take. It would be nice to hear you explain what role the deck would fill in your local metagame, and why you're not just playing Turbo Depths. I think that would answer how the deck can be developed.

Thanks for the big response and going through all the points, I appreciate it greatly. The Nic-Fit crew seems to be quite the welcoming bunch of people. :wink:

My meta-game is overwhelmingly blue, with a bunch of Stoneblade variants, Grixis Delver, and Czech Pile being the most represented decks. I almost always run into a Br reanimator deck as well, and occasionally a storm deck. There's also a couple elves decks in my meta-game, and a slew of random 1-offs (one Sneak/Show player, one agro-loam player, a lands player, a Stompy-variant player.) I've been playing junk recently to get back into the format (been away for a while) and become familiar with the metagame. Playing Dark Confidant and Tarmogoyf against a bunch of Stoneblade decks gives me the feel-bads, I don't have the countermagic to resolve them. Tarmogoyf, sadly, just isn't what he used to be in legacy anymore. Not saying its a bad deck, it's just not great (and the players at the LGS are quite good, unlike me...)

My thinking was this: Nic-Fit's fast mana lets me out-mana the fair decks, enabling big threats, using a high number of discard spells (especially Therapy and Hymn) to get the mid-late game. If I get in a pinch against the other angles of attack from other decks (see above) I could concentrate on working the Depths combo angle. Pernicious Deed/Death Cloud let me wipe the battlefield and create a game state that lets me win with only a few resources (hexmage/rotation are low to the ground.) Hexmage also doubles up as a threat (anemic, but first strike is decent) that also happens to hose Jace (I see a lot of Jaces...) Regarding the loam pox idea, I've done that before. I just don't think a pox-type strategy is very good (again, I'm not a great player.) So instead of playing a constant pox-like game state with limited resources I'd rather ramp past opponents, reset with Deed, or just win with Depths. I just think its better to disrupt and then land a bomb rather than disrupt indefinitely and try and win with Mishra's Factory/Nether Spirit. I think games like that are easier to lose due to play errors where the margins are so tight. Nic-Fit seems to be a deck that I could allow me to really *grow* as a player. Some of the comments here reinforce that (good builders/players get rewarded while bad builders/players get punished.) I'm hoping the punishment turns into growth, lol.

One style of deck that I am always trying to accomplish is the elusive hybrid. Pushing opponents into a role with one part of the deck while having another avenue available lets me flip games upside down (or that's the hope anyways.)

[Mr. Safety]

I'd advice against running Death Cloud as a way of trying to ramp up the control. You can't compete with the blue decks when it comes to the velocity of your control and consistency. You simply can't. Death Cloud is a big play that costs you your entire turn and easily folds to Daze/Spell Pierce/Force of Will. There's a reason why Pox-decks do very, very poorly.

As for the stability of your manabase - fetchlands, duals and 3 basics for each colour. Especially in a BG build, it should not be a problem to get enough initial manasources.

So like this?

7 fetches
2 duals
6 basics
4 wasteland
3 utility (bojuka bog, karakas, urborg)
2 combo

(Maze of Ith to sideboard, or dropped.)

I know, I know...pet cards are bad lol. Not even 1? *sigh* OKAY.

[Echelon]

So like this?

7 fetches
2 duals
6 basics
4 wasteland
3 utility (bojuka bog, karakas, urborg)
2 combo

(Maze of Ith to sideboard, or dropped.)

I know, I know...pet cards are bad lol. Not even 1? *sigh* OKAY.

7 fetches + 2 duals + 3 basic = 12, which is still below 14. If you manage to drop your utility lands and go +1 fetch & +1 of each basic, you're @14.

Another option would be 8 fetch, 3 dual & 3 of each basic for a stable 19 land manabase w/ room for utility lands.

Don't feel bad about your pet cards. I used to run Karador, Ghost Chieftain (and still kinda want to).

[Mr. Safety]

7 fetches + 2 duals + 3 basic = 12, which is still below 14. If you manage to drop your utility lands and go +1 fetch & +1 of each basic, you're @14.

Another option would be 8 fetch, 3 dual & 3 of each basic for a stable 19 land manabase w/ room for utility lands.

Don't feel bad about your pet cards. I used to run Karador, Ghost Chieftain (and still kinda want to).

Wait, I wrote 6 basics (meaning 3 swamp + 3 forest). So 7 + 2 + 6 = 15.

What am I missing?

[Navsi]

Wait, I wrote 6 basics (meaning 3 swamp + 3 forest). So 7 + 2 + 6 = 15.

What am I missing?

Echelon is saying you should have 14 green sources and 14 black sources.

[Mr. Safety]

Echelon is saying you should have 14 green sources and 14 black sources.

Gotcha, that's what I was missing!

EDIT: So, list.

4x Veteran Explorer
2x Deathrite Shaman
4x Vampire Hexmage
1x Primeval Titan
1x Thragtusk
1x Dryad Arbor

4x Cabal Therapy
1x Thoughtseize
2x Abrupt Decay
3x Pernicious Deed
4x Crop Rotation
1x Life from the Loam (will become Excavator when I can get it)
3x Hymn to Tourach
2x Sylvan Library
2x Green Sun’s Zenith

4x verdant catacombs
2x bloodstained mire
2x windswept heath
1x Bayou
1x overgrown tomb
4x Swamp
4x Forest
4x Wasteland
1x Dark Depths
1x Thespian’s Stage
1x Bojuka Bog

Sideboard (known quantities, the rest is open)
2x Choke
2x Surgical Extraction
1-2x Lost Legacy
1-2x Diabolic Edict

That's 25 lands, but 6 of them really aren't lands (so that gets to the 19 sources Echelon was stating, and 14 of each color available early).

Dropped Death Cloud for 3rd Deed. Sideboard is wide open, hoping for suggestions.

[Brael]

14 of each color is generally the baseline for your opening hand. Unfortunately for you, you have other curve considerations to consider. For example if you want to curve Vet into Hymn you're going to need to play Bayou into Swamp, and you only have 10 ways to play a GB land on T1, which means your G into BB hands are going to be weak, you also have few ways to open on Forest since you're base black.

Basically, there's a reason the Lands decks are playing Mox Diamond. It's the only way to make their mana work.

And I'm still not sure what Vet is doing here since you're not really ramping into anything.

[Kobra_D]

@Echelon That list does deviate from mine a bit. I cut the some of the creatures to go up on interaction. My base assumption with Rhino fit was always that I'll win the game if my opponent doesn't. This can lead to an grueling grind fest but going up on discard and removal meant that a siege rhino or 2 was always enough. But that just happened to be my interpretation of the deck.


The problem here is that there's not enough Nissa's that play well together. There's only two good ones, and possibly a third with the GU version... if you can maintain a high enough creature count.

Vastwood Seer and Vital Force play well together, but none of the other Nissa's really get along. If you want PW tribal I think you would have better luck with Garruk in green, or just play Gideons.

Garruks might play better together, I'm mostly playing Nissa's because I already have the Nissa's. That being said, several of the Nissa's do 1 thing, make lands creatures. Exploring the theme of manlands I'm starting with the following.

The deck is very much a stylized rock style GB deck, now the top end just happens to be planeswalkers that make lands into hastey attackers.

I'm also already aware of the nombo of pernicious deed with land creatures, hopefully I find myself in magical christmas land next week, but I may swap out some deeds for deluge or other wrath's that might save me.

//Creatues
4 Veteren Explorer
2 deathrite shaman
1 Nissa Vastwood Seer
4 Sylvan Advocate
1 Dryad Arbor

//Inst.&Sorc.
4 Cabal therapy
2 abrupt decay
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Hymn
2 Collective Brutality
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Innocent Blood

//Art.&Enct.
3 Pernicious deed
4 Oath of Nissa
2 Sylvan Library

//Planeswalkers
2 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Nissa, Steward of Elements
1 Nissa Worldwaker

//Lands
4 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Island
3 Bayou
2 Treetop Village
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty
2 Polluted Delta

[square_two]

//Creatues
4 Veteren Explorer
2 deathrite shaman
1 Nissa Vastwood Seer
4 Sylvan Advocate
1 Dryad Arbor

//Inst.&Sorc.
4 Cabal therapy
2 abrupt decay
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Hymn
2 Collective Brutality
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Innocent Blood

//Art.&Enct.
3 Pernicious deed
4 Oath of Nissa
2 Sylvan Library

//Planeswalkers
2 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Nissa, Steward of Elements
1 Nissa, Worldwaker

//Lands
4 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Island
3 Bayou
2 Treetop Village
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty
2 Polluted Delta


The nissa theme is cute, but I'd rather have Trackers over the Advocates - they play alongside lands just the same, except leave you with value. Not as weak to Deed/Angler either. Nissa Worldwaker could way more easily be...Ob Nixilis Reignited to clear the path or draw more cards. BTW, his ultimate is exceedingly hilarious alongside Nissa VF's ultimate. I've see that happen on a stream before.

Liliana, the Last Hope would also fix the Strix/Angler issue btw. If you are absolutely bent on playing Advocates.

[Mr. Safety]

14 of each color is generally the baseline for your opening hand. Unfortunately for you, you have other curve considerations to consider. For example if you want to curve Vet into Hymn you're going to need to play Bayou into Swamp, and you only have 10 ways to play a GB land on T1, which means your G into BB hands are going to be weak, you also have few ways to open on Forest since you're base black.

Basically, there's a reason the Lands decks are playing Mox Diamond. It's the only way to make their mana work.

And I'm still not sure what Vet is doing here since you're not really ramping into anything.

Deed/GSZ/Primeval Titan/Thragtusk. Only 7 bombs...not enough?

[Brael]

Deed/GSZ/Primeval Titan/Thragtusk. Only 7 bombs...not enough?

More like, your list looks to me like it just durdles a lot. Discard is strong when backed by a clock, but I'm not really seeing a clock in your deck that can take advantage of making your opponent stumble.

[Mr. Safety]

More like, your list looks to me like it just durdles a lot. Discard is strong when backed by a clock, but I'm not really seeing a clock in your deck that can take advantage of making your opponent stumble.

Good point. I suppose disruption into Depths, instead of more traditional threats, is the real issue? Mostly because I am disrupting into (hopefully!) a combo rather than a more reliable way to win the game (because I don't have filtering to ensure the combo)?

EDIT: this is worded weird, sorry for that. Should I just jam different threats because Depths combo is a distraction/too unreliable?

[Kobra_D]

The nissa theme is cute, but I'd rather have Trackers over the Advocates - they play alongside lands just the same, except leave you with value. Not as weak to Deed/Angler either. Nissa Worldwaker could way more easily be...Ob Nixilis Reignited to clear the path or draw more cards. BTW, his ultimate is exceedingly hilarious alongside Nissa VF's ultimate. I've see that happen on a stream before.

Liliana, the Last Hope would also fix the Strix/Angler issue btw. If you are absolutely bent on playing Advocates.

I think I've been tunnel visioned on exploiting the new planeswalker rule that I've simply constructed a borse version of vet. walkers.

You might be right in that I should cut the bad nissa's for better walkers and go that way with it. Thanks.


More like, your list looks to me like it just durdles a lot. Discard is strong when backed by a clock, but I'm not really seeing a clock in your deck that can take advantage of making your opponent stumble.

I largely agree with this. If you're running a ton of disruption then you need to be able to turn a corner quick and close out the game. That's why I like the DD plan even if NicPost is the better DD nic fit deck. Personally, I would try to push the DD, thespian's stage a little more. If you can close out the game with a 20/20 on turn 3 or turn 10 then life is good.

[Warden]

@Mr. Safety
I needed to see your post because it's a thought experiment I also want to figure out.

I'll work with Junk-Fit, as that's what I prefer to run with. From what I've gathered, Turbo Depths can be broken down to ~11 combo pieces (dd/stage/hex) / ~11 tutors / ~11 protection (discard/needle). On the flipside, Maverick frequently runs DD/Stage as a 2-card package. Sometimes crop rotation is in the mix.

Where does that leave Nic Fit? I'm coming from a perspective we can continue to play Nic Fit with the upside of a combo. This philosophy may be something others disagree with, but it's something @Arianrhod taught me about SneakyFit. Just do your usual business...and oops we have sequence that nets us a 20/20. If you want more of the combo than Nic Fit, go for it. If you really want the combo, I'd argue you're better off playing pure Turbo Depths.

I feel we can safely incorporate a 2 card combo, a la Maverick. However, I'd like to pursue a 4 card combo package for this discussion. Since we're talking about packages *eyeroll at sexual inuendo*, let's talk Vampire Hexmage. I don't like her here. She works well in turbo because of petal + their philosophy to combo immediately or die. Don't get me wrong, she's playable but not ideal. I also don't want Urborg in the manabase -- it's tight as is. Hexmage also has a tendency to durdle until DD appears, which isn't "good enough" IMO. The same situation is true for alternative enablers from the newer set(s) such as mirror and solemnity. They don't really do anything to advance the actual Nic Fit plan.

I think the first step is configuring the manabase. Then we can select choices.

24 lands (23 + arbor)
7 fetch
2 forest
2 swamp
2 plains
2 DD
2 Stage
2 bayou
1 scrubland
1 savannah --> or steppe
1 karakas
1 phyrexian tower
1 dryad arbor

*sejiri steppe and ghost quarter strong considerations

36 slots remain. Turbo Depths uses ~11 tutors and ~11 protection to force the combo or die. We don't need to strictly adhere to these amounts. So to start, I think it's safe to include Crop Rotation. Rotation also grabs tower in g1 and possible sb lands like bog or another karakas g2/g3. If we want additional tutors, we're looking at a thin list: sylvan scrying, expedition map, or into the north. We can open up the pool with more obscure choices like diabolic edict, prime-time, and knight of the reliquary. Prime-Time is an auto-include here as well. I'm not a fan of diabolic, but I fanboy all over Knight. She's a great mid-range weapon with land-tutoring upside. In terms of protection, we'll already be running cabal therapy. To compliment, we can run discard (pro-active) or removal (reactive). Junk can play PTE/STP whereas pure BG has slimmer pickings. Hymn is fantastic, but rough on casting cost for junk. Fatal Push is another contender -- but it's worthless against bigger boom booms. Sweepers like deed give us tremendous momentum as a deck. Lets round out the list with standard Nic Fit inclusions.

/24 lands

*arbor
4 veteran explorer
2 deathrite
1 scavenging ooze
1 witness
3 kotr
1 thragtusk
1 prime-time
1 titania, p.o.a
1 sylvan safekeeper
/15

4 gsz
4 crop rotation
4 therapy
3 deed
3 swords to plowshares (alt. thoughtseize)
2 abrupt decay
1 nissa, vital force
/21

*Honorable mentions: leovold, sigarda, vindicate, toxic d, titans, land-tutors, loam.

The list isn't perfect, but it should get ideas stirring. All creatures are zenithable.
I guess I could be more BG and have only KotR as the sole white card. I'd shift the mana around to have a very solid BG game + karakas/2 duals/1 plains.
If you wanted to increase the combo nature of this list, you have to decrease some of the removal "protection" and up the tutors. If you think I'm loud wrong about Hexmage, her inclusion comes at the expense of what I listed.



Stuff

[Brael]

Good point. I suppose disruption into Depths, instead of more traditional threats, is the real issue? Mostly because I am disrupting into (hopefully!) a combo rather than a more reliable way to win the game (because I don't have filtering to ensure the combo)?

EDIT: this is worded weird, sorry for that. Should I just jam different threats because Depths combo is a distraction/too unreliable?

You may be interested in this
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31293-Primer-Nic-Fit&p=1015935&viewfull=1#post1015935

[Echelon]

I'll be off for a couple of days. Back on wednesday.

Edit: On an unrelated note - there are so many hipsters in Vienna! Oh, and the schnitzels are huge. And delicious.

[fonzdizon]

Salutations everyone, I've been observing this forum for sometime now, and this Depths shell has peaked my interest since it's inception here a few months ago and was inspired by bobmans list to build one of my own. Seeing now that the Depths shell is picking up some steam I'd like to throw my list into the mix to try and stir the pot.

Maindeck 61

Lands 22
x3 Verdant Catacombs
x2 Windswept Heath
x2 Bayou
x1 Savannah
x1 Scrubland
x3 Forest
x2 Swamp
x1 Plains
x1 Dryad Arbor
x1 Thespian Stage
x1 Dark Depths
x1 Phyrexian Tower
x1 Bojuka Bog
x1 Karakas
x1 Wasteland

Creature Spells 17
x4 Veteran Explorer
x1 Deathrite Shaman
x1 Sylvan Safekeeper
x1 Gaddock Teeg
x1 Eternal Witness
x1 Ramunap Excavator
x2 Knight of the Reliquary
x2 Tireless Tracker
x1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
x1 Thragtusk
x1 Titania Protector of Argoth
x1 Primeval Titan

Non-creature spells 22
x4 Green Sun's zenith
x4 Cabal Therapy
x3 Crop Rotation
x3 Path to exile
x2 Sylvan Library
x2 Diabolic Intent
x3 Pernicious Deed
x1 Toxic Deluge

Sideboard (Catered to LGS meta)
x1 Engineered Explosives
x1 Cavern of souls
x1 Relic of Progenitus
x2 Thoughtsieze
x1 Surgical Extraction
x1 Circle of protection: Red
x1 Ethersworn Canonist
x2 Containment Priest
x1 Lost Legacy
x1 Pulse of Murasa
x1 Vindicate
x1 Toxic Deluge
x1 Nissa Vital Force

Titania + Safekeeper steals games

Trackers seem grind out games where you fail to combo off with Explorer

Teeg is the main as a desperate play to try and win game 1's against fast combo decks and new miracles

Meren, Excavator, Wasteland and Intent #2 feel like they can flexed out

Volraths Stronghold, Maze of Ith are under consideration

Yay or nay?

[pettdan]

@Fonzdizon: you're the one who's been playing it (or perhaps not) , you tell us. :) With that said I've been playing Leshrac's Cloudpost list and have been making changes pulling it slightly in the fair direction (less Cloudpost reliance but still using them). So I think the green land related creatures coupled with crop rotation and depths+stage seems strong in itself, I'm guessing your list works just fine. Try Leshrac's or my list and see how it feels. Apart from the Cloudposts some differences are 4 Trackers and 2 Veterans, which makes sense considering the posts (more mana for trackers, less reliance on Veterans due to alternate ramp). And you run more removal while his list goes bigger. And the safekeeper with ramunap backup seem good too. Maybe I'll try your list soon.

[Brael]

Yay or nay?

I like most of it. I think the white is unnecessary though, same goes for Wasteland.

I would rather play something like this
Lands 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Thespian Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Creature Spells 17
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Titania Protector of Argoth
1 Primeval Titan

Non-creature spells 22
4 Green Sun's zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Crop Rotation
2 Fatal Push
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Intent
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

I actually used to play something similar, I went 12-0 in a paper league with it in the swiss, then 2-0 in the top 4. It won me an Underground Sea. It did well enough, but I found myself not actually using the DD combo very much, it was just there... in that league I think it was only relevant in 2 games. I think you need to be more dedicated to the combo to make it useful.

[pettdan]

I actually used to play something similar, I went 12-0 in a paper league with it in the swiss, then 2-0 in the top 4. It won me an Underground Sea. It did well enough, but I found myself not actually using the DD combo very much, it was just there... in that league I think it was only relevant in 2 games. I think you need to be more dedicated to the combo to make it useful.

That seems fantastic, 12-0? Why did you stop playing it? And what were your matchups? I may try that list too.

[Brael]

That seems fantastic, 12-0? Why did you stop playing it? And what were your matchups? I may try that list too.

The exact list is posted in the thread somewhere, it was a league I played in last spring. I stopped playing it because SDT got banned, and it forced me to rethink things. Fortunately I was already cutting SDT, but removing the last 2 still messed things up.

Now, I play similar lists but without the DD plan at all.

I don't remember the exact matches anymore, but I wrote about them at the time, so they're in this thread somewhere. Actually, come to think of it... the record might have been 10-0-2 or something. All I really remember now is that I went undefeated.

[pettdan]

The exact list is posted in the thread somewhere, it was a league I played in last spring. I stopped playing it because SDT got banned, and it forced me to rethink things. Fortunately I was already cutting SDT, but removing the last 2 still messed things up.

Now, I play similar lists but without the DD plan at all.

I don't remember the exact matches anymore, but I wrote about them at the time, so they're in this thread somewhere. Actually, come to think of it... the record might have been 10-0-2 or something. All I really remember now is that I went undefeated.

I checked the thread due to being curious at the list, it's probably this one right? It has a little less focus on the land package than I thought [edit: it seems to be 2 Crops, 2 Trackers and a Courser in the main and Depths + Stage in the sideboard].

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31293-Primer-Nic-Fit&p=1006008&viewfull=1#post1006008

[Brael]

I checked the thread due to being curious at the list, it's probably this one right? It has a little less focus on the land package than I thought [edit: it seems to be 2 Crops, 2 Trackers and a Courser in the main and Depths + Stage in the sideboard].

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31293-Primer-Nic-Fit&p=1006008&viewfull=1#post1006008

Scroll back, I linked it.

[Mr. Safety]

Based on feedback, I've dropped cards and reworked my list to be Gbw. I still want to emphasize Depths, so its got some tutor emphasis with Knight/Crop Rotation/Primeval Titan. Beyond that, I'm looking for advice on how to tweak from here. I think my biggest problem was trying to cram Hymn/Wasteland into the deck, which wasn't exactly productive (especially in testing.) So here is where I'm at with my list, similar to the list linked a few posts above from Brael. I don't have some of the lands, but I think I can get started with this and move forward from here as I get ahold of the right cards.

4x Veteran Explorer
2x Deathrite Shaman
1x Primeval Titan
1x Thragtusk
1x Eternal Witness
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Thoughtseize
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Pernicious Deed
4x Crop Rotation
1x Life from the Loam
2x Green Sun’s Zenith
2x Sylvan Library
2x Swords to Plowshares

4x verdant catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
3x windswept heath
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Swamp
3x Forest
1x Plains
1x Wasteland
1x Dark Depths
1x Thespian’s Stage
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Maze of Ith
1x Dryad Arbor

2x Surgical Extraction
2x Golgari Charm
2x Pithing Needle
2x Diabolic Edict
1x Reclamation Sage
2x Choke
1x Lost Legacy
1x Karakas
1x Gaddock Teeg

[Kobra_D]

Based on feedback, I've dropped cards and reworked my list to be Gbw. I still want to emphasize Depths, so its got some tutor emphasis with Knight/Crop Rotation/Primeval Titan. Beyond that, I'm looking for advice on how to tweak from here. I think my biggest problem was trying to cram Hymn/Wasteland into the deck, which wasn't exactly productive (especially in testing.) So here is where I'm at with my list, similar to the list linked a few posts above from Brael. I don't have some of the lands, but I think I can get started with this and move forward from here as I get ahold of the right cards.

4x Veteran Explorer
2x Deathrite Shaman
1x Primeval Titan
1x Thragtusk
1x Eternal Witness
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Thoughtseize
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Pernicious Deed
4x Crop Rotation
1x Life from the Loam
2x Green Sun’s Zenith
2x Sylvan Library
2x Swords to Plowshares

4x verdant catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
3x windswept heath
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Swamp
3x Forest
1x Plains
1x Wasteland
1x Dark Depths
1x Thespian’s Stage
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Maze of Ith
1x Dryad Arbor

2x Surgical Extraction
2x Golgari Charm
2x Pithing Needle
2x Diabolic Edict
1x Reclamation Sage
2x Choke
1x Lost Legacy
1x Karakas
1x Gaddock Teeg

Maverick/Aggro Loam decks are out of my wheel house but wouldn't this list benefit from adding a ramunap excavator and a land that draws cards (horizon canopy/scattered groves/Tranquil Thicket)?

[Brael]

Based on feedback, I've dropped cards and reworked my list to be Gbw. I still want to emphasize Depths, so its got some tutor emphasis with Knight/Crop Rotation/Primeval Titan. Beyond that, I'm looking for advice on how to tweak from here. I think my biggest problem was trying to cram Hymn/Wasteland into the deck, which wasn't exactly productive (especially in testing.) So here is where I'm at with my list, similar to the list linked a few posts above from Brael. I don't have some of the lands, but I think I can get started with this and move forward from here as I get ahold of the right cards.

I would drop a Crop Rotation and Life from the Loam for 2 more GSZ.

[Mr. Safety]

Loam will become Excavator, and I could easily drop a Crop Rotation for another GSZ. I want some way to recur the Depths combo, whether it be Loam or Excavator, and Excavator obviously works better with GSZ. I was thinking 4 Crops is probably too many as well, especially when KotR is a much better engine. I like the instant speed grave hate and other utility lands, but 4 does seem excessive. I can get GSZ #4 in there by cutting to 1 Library. Thanks for the feedback! I think my mana-base is fairly solid, based on your '14 initial sources' feedback. I have 14 green sources, 14 black, and 11 white sources. White is a little thin, but its a fairly light splash.

@Kobra_D: Loam is just a placeholder until I get a Ramanup Excavator, and the synergy is so loose with only 1 Loam that I wouldn't go there anyways. I would probably stuff in a Sejiri Steppe before that, or just maindeck the Karakas. Horizon Canopy is fine, but not Tranquil Thicket.

[Kobra_D]

Loam will become Excavator, and I could easily drop a Crop Rotation for another GSZ. I want some way to recur the Depths combo, whether it be Loam or Excavator, and Excavator obviously works better with GSZ. I was thinking 4 Crops is probably too many as well, especially when KotR is a much better engine. I like the instant speed grave hate and other utility lands, but 4 does seem excessive. I can get GSZ #4 in there by cutting to 1 Library. Thanks for the feedback! I think my mana-base is fairly solid, based on your '14 initial sources' feedback. I have 14 green sources, 14 black, and 11 white sources. White is a little thin, but its a fairly light splash.

@Kobra_D: Loam is just a placeholder until I get a Ramanup Excavator, and the synergy is so loose with only 1 Loam that I wouldn't go there anyways. I would probably stuff in a Sejiri Steppe before that, or just maindeck the Karakas. Horizon Canopy is fine, but not Tranquil Thicket.

Yeah, if you drop loam then there isn't a real reason to have cycling lands (Canopy is nice still in top deck modes). Excavator seems to be an underrated jewel at the moment. You may also want some number of collective brutalities just because they can disrupt combo and kill DRS, both of which may be issues for your game plan in general.

[Mr. Safety]

Yeah, if you drop loam then there isn't a real reason to have cycling lands (Canopy is nice still in top deck modes). Excavator seems to be an underrated jewel at the moment. You may also want some number of collective brutalities just because they can disrupt combo and kill DRS. Both of which may be issues for your game plan in general.

I definitely like Collective Brutality, but I don't have any ATM. Again, the Sylvan Library's are flex spots along with 1-2 other cards (I could cut another Crop Rotation, going down to 2, to fit in 1-2 Brutality.)

Good thoughts, keep 'em coming!

[Brael]

Loam will become Excavator, and I could easily drop a Crop Rotation for another GSZ. I want some way to recur the Depths combo, whether it be Loam or Excavator, and Excavator obviously works better with GSZ. I was thinking 4 Crops is probably too many as well, especially when KotR is a much better engine. I like the instant speed grave hate and other utility lands, but 4 does seem excessive. I can get GSZ #4 in there by cutting to 1 Library. Thanks for the feedback! I think my mana-base is fairly solid, based on your '14 initial sources' feedback. I have 14 green sources, 14 black, and 11 white sources. White is a little thin, but its a fairly light splash.

No need. You already have recursion with Eternal Witness, and it's more versatile. If you really want to diversify away from that, use Renegade Rallier.

[Kobra_D]

So I think I'm going to jam veteran walkers this week for my nic fit brew. It seems close to what I want to run but something seems off. Does anyone have thoughts on what is missing here? Without GSZ I'm not sure I want flip nissa. Maybe more discard?


//Creatues
4 Veteren Explorer
3 Baleful Strix
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

//Inst.&Sorc.
4 Cabal therapy
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Collective Brutality
2 Thoughtseize
1 To the Slaughter

//Enchantments
3 Pernicious deed

//Planeswalkers
1 Ugin, Spirit Dragon
2 Nissa, Vital Force
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Obnoxious
1 Nissa, Steward of Elements
1 Garruk Relentless

//Lands
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm sure you have thought of it, but with large amounts of Walkers, no GSZ, I think trying to squeeze in some number of Oath of Nissa would be worth your while. You suggested more discard; do you feel like you are missing disruption?

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[Brael]

So I think I'm going to jam veteran walkers this week for my nic fit brew. It seems close to what I want to run but something seems off. Does anyone have thoughts on what is missing here? Without GSZ I'm not sure I want flip nissa. Maybe more discard?

Stewart of Elements has a very low hit rate in that build, you might as well never use the 0 ability. I think flip walkers are vital to making the card work.

[Lueseto]

I've been trying her in my BUG list and I've found that you almost never want to blind 0, as scry 2 is pretty decent by itself, so I just use the 0 if I set it with brainstorm, which kind of worsens your brainstorm... With stronghold she's fine too.

She really shines with Courser of Kruphix though. You can 0 when you know you'll hit and her +2 almost ensures Courser will net you a card.

What I don't like about her is that she is pure value and doesn't impact the board on her own (aside from the ocassional 10 to the dome). It feels great when you are ahead as she can bury them in card advantage, but Jace can do that as well, and he can bounce creatures to help maintain the board state clean.

Overall I think Jace is just miles more powerful and Nissa doesn't do anything Jace doesn't, aside from costing 3, which is reflected in the immense difference in power.

[Navsi]

Jace also has the advantage of having major synergy with Therapy. Bouncing and Therapying people's stuff is a really relevant interaction.

[Mr. Safety]

No need. You already have recursion with Eternal Witness, and it's more versatile. If you really want to diversify away from that, use Renegade Rallier.

Makes perfect sense. I don't really want Rallier, so I'll leave it at Witness. Thanks! :wink:

EDIT: I was reading the primer again, and there's a PW list for Junk. Is it worth trying out some beefy PW's in the sideboard like Elspeth, Sun's Champion? Also, is Garruk, Apex Predator too expensive, or just not powerful enough? I suppose for 7 you get Karn, which is probably better. Are any of the Garruks worth using? I've used Relentless in the past, which seems very good at grinding out games.

[pettdan]

Makes perfect sense. I don't really want Rallier, so I'll leave it at Witness. Thanks! :wink:

EDIT: I was reading the primer again, and there's a PW list for Junk. Is it worth trying out some beefy PW's in the sideboard like Elspeth, Sun's Champion? Also, is Garruk, Apex Predator too expensive, or just not powerful enough? I suppose for 7 you get Karn, which is probably better. Are any of the Garruks worth using? I've used Relentless in the past, which seems very good at grinding out games.

Long answer to simple question, bear with me...

7 drops make your list less consistent, I would argue. A lot of the games you won't reach 7 mana before it's over. That's what's nice about cards such as Walking Ballista and Green Sun's Zenith, they can be deployed at low mana cost to interact early in the game or at a higher mana cost to gain more substantial advantage over the opponent in the late game. Playing a green 6-drop creature that can be tutored for by GSZ is generally more valuable than playing a non-creature 7-drop even though you will generally be paying 7 for the creature anyway. Because you are more likely to find it. Well, this is fairly obvious, I don't think I need to explain it further. The disadvantage of the creature is usually that it doesn't have as much impact on the game as a similar priced planeswalker would, but I think most lists use Pernicious Deed or Toxic Deluge to make up for that. If you deed everything on the board but your CMC 5- or 6-creature you're usually in a winning position.

Furthermore, if you want to play 7 drops in your list you probably need access to some extra ramp. The Scapeshift-list is an example, you usually want to reach 7 lands to be able to Scapeshift for 5 mountains and 2 Valakuts or 6 mountains and 1 Valakut. That list plays I think 2 extra ramp creatures (I'm not updated at all, haven't played it in probably 3 years), such as Sakura-Tribe Elder, Wood Elves and/or Nissa, Vastwood Seer.

About the list you are building, I initially thought you had a plan with the Turbo Depths-Nic Fit crossover that you posted, but it seems not to be the case. If you don't have a specific plan for your list, then I would suggest you just try to use one of the lists that you find in this thread and that interests you, rather than trying to build a list yourself. Once you've played the list you can modify it, or make a few modifications to it. But starting from scratch and building a list without a clear idea of what strategy you are trying to deploy is pretty difficult. I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't continue what you are doing, just that it seems like a pretty inefficient way to go about it.

[Mr. Safety]

Long answer to simple question, bear with me...

7 drops make your list less consistent, I would argue. A lot of the games you won't reach 7 mana before it's over. That's what's nice about cards such as Walking Ballista and Green Sun's Zenith, they can be deployed at low mana cost to interact early in the game or at a higher mana cost to gain more substantial advantage over the opponent in the late game. Playing a green 6-drop creature that can be tutored for by GSZ is generally more valuable than playing a non-creature 7-drop even though you will generally be paying 7 for the creature anyway. Because you are more likely to find it. Well, this is fairly obvious, I don't think I need to explain it further. The disadvantage of the creature is usually that it doesn't have as much impact on the game as a similar priced planeswalker would, but I think most lists use Pernicious Deed or Toxic Deluge to make up for that. If you deed everything on the board but your CMC 5- or 6-creature you're usually in a winning position.

Furthermore, if you want to play 7 drops in your list you probably need access to some extra ramp. The Scapeshift-list is an example, you usually want to reach 7 lands to be able to Scapeshift for 5 mountains and 2 Valakuts or 6 mountains and 1 Valakut. That list plays I think 2 extra ramp creatures (I'm not updated at all, haven't played it in probably 3 years), such as Sakura-Tribe Elder, Wood Elves and/or Nissa, Vastwood Seer.

About the list you are building, I initially thought you had a plan with the Turbo Depths-Nic Fit crossover that you posted, but it seems not to be the case. If you don't have a specific plan for your list, then I would suggest you just try to use one of the lists that you find in this thread and that interests you, rather than trying to build a list yourself. Once you've played the list you can modify it, or make a few modifications to it. But starting from scratch and building a list without a clear idea of what strategy you are trying to deploy is pretty difficult. I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't continue what you are doing, just that it seems like a pretty inefficient way to go about it.

Good thoughts. I wanted to try the Turbo Depths approach with 4x Hexmage, but Warden actually convinced me *not* to try that, with a referenced Gbw list/thought experiment a page or so back. If I were to describe my goal for the deck in one sentence, it would be this: a Depths combo deck with a strong mid-late game that didn't need to win with depths.

It all boils down to this: do I play Knight of the Reliquary with Crop Rotation to tutor up Depths/Stage, or do I play Hexmage/Crop to try and naturally draw into it more often with a faster combo potential. I could play just one Knight, doesn't seem bad, but the impression I got from the experienced dialogue on this thread was that I was 'durdling too much' or 'why use Explorer at all?' I'd love to play the Hexmage version, but I was afraid it was just an uninformed bad idea, so I came here for advice.

Makes me want to say 'fuck it' and go back to my original list...but I know I'm not a fantastic deck-builder or player. Regardless, I love the information sharing and feedback from the thread here, it's been a welcoming and great place to talk magic.

[Echelon]

I think you'd be better off if you turn your approach around. Have a decent gameplan and threaten with the (lategame) I-win button.

That way you have a deck that works at all times and can steal games when you need it.

[Mr. Safety]

+1

That makes sense, and the real hinging point is to Hexmage or not. If no hexmage, then I think Knight of the Reliquary is a naturally strong threat that also happens to assemble Depths/Stage. At that point, is Maverick a better approach?

[pettdan]

+1

That makes sense, and the real hinging point is to Hexmage or not. If no hexmage, then I think Knight of the Reliquary is a naturally strong threat that also happens to assemble Depths/Stage. At that point, is Maverick a better approach?

Two aspects of that is that a) you don't need Veteran Explorer to ramp into Knight, and b) Knight has great synergy with Wasteland. So these two aspects of KotR make him not so common in Nic Fit I think. But sure, you probably could make it work, I wouldn't be extremely surprised, it's a good card at a good CMC.

[Mr. Safety]

Yes, wasteland is the other consideration. Maverick is more concerned with Wasteland and Knight tricks. It pushes it closer to Maverick, which already plays Mother of Runes, which is a convenient way to protect Marit Lage as well.

[Gruby]

Hi. I played a tournament last saturday and I want to share with You ;)

Decklist:
LANDS 23
1 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

CREATURES 17
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Dryad Arbor

INSTANTS and SORC. 17
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Painful Truths
4 Path to Exile
1 Golgari Charm

OTHER SPELLS 5
3 Pernicious Deed
1 elspeth knight-errant

Sideboard:
2 Lost Legacy
3 Duress
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pithing Needle
1 Golgari Charm
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Hymn to Tourah
1 Elspeth knight-errant

Played 5 games 1win, 2draw, 2 lose ;(

1. BUG Mirror 0-1
Game1: He starts with Vet, so I go with DRS. He went 5 mana turn 2 thragtusk, lot of removal landed this game. This was really grindy but he overcome me and I can't draw enough removal. This was my first match with meren and I forget about her trigger after deed=3, I would have 2 experience counters.

Game 2: -Gaddock -3 Vet +2Hymn+2needle. He blow me with Thragtusk +titania+ tracker. Not even seen one removal spell ;(

2. BUGr Control: 0-1-1
Game 1: I tought it was delver. Saw volcanic island. Fast Rhino+ rhino done it quickly.

Game 2: -Gaddock +golgari charm
Longest game ever. removal for removal, creatures was whipped, burned and sac for his Lilly. Couldn't draw zenith for Sigarda. He blow Lilly's ultigiving me 3 duals and deed and 4 basics I choosed 4 basics. Flooded after that.

Game 3: -2 golgari charm -2deed +elspeth +2needle
Another long, grindy game, Itought that rhino + elspeth make the deal but termination make a draw.

3. BR Reanimator. 1-1-1
Game 1: Mulligan and, keeped hand with 3 lands zenith deathrite path, sry for reclamation sage and put it on the bottom.
I insanely draw removals, turn 3 karakas from top. Make a game with rhino + sigarda and deathrite.

Game 2: -gaddock -elspeth -golgari charm-reclamation sage +nihil spellbomb +tormods crypt+2 hymns
He shows cancellor of the annex
Started with good 7, karakas+2 lands, 2pte, tormods crypt and zenith.
He 1 land, dark ritual, entomb, exhume, griselbrand
Me: karakas, bounce, crypt
fast game, removing whole his graveyard, and drawing tons of removal.

4. Dark depths combo 1-1-2
Game 1: He started with bayou and sylvan safekeeper, therapy called glimpse of nature, dang wrong ;) Marit turn 4/5.

Game 2: -gaddock -elspeth -3vets -3deed +2lost legacy +2needle +2hymn +spellbomb +tormod
Landed karakas quickly enough, having 2 pte and drawing third. Rhino make a game.

Game 3: Marit lage was faster ;)

5. UWR Delver. 1-2-2 in every match here I missed therapy naming stp, see stifle. naming stifle saw stp and so on.
Game1: Wanted to mischief as maverick playing zenith for 0, dryad, t2 drs, vet. But he sworded/stifled everything.

Game 2: -gaddock -reclamation sage -1rhino -1vet +2hymn +elspeth +golgari charm
t1: therapy naming brainstorm, got2! Elspeth + rhino make a game

Game 3: He had a "control hand". Wasted my duals. He had more lands in game than me :D but termination get us caught as 1-1.

Conclusions:
Elspeth was great when she landed. Second bayou is a MUST HAVE ;) Few missplays on my side. I considering change thruths for sylvan library and getting toxic deluge instead of charms. I needed this -2/-2 or -3 sweeper few times.



Thanx for help :)

Edit: I almost forget< every played hymn was superb!!!

[Philipp2293]

Tripple plains seems very ambitious tbh. Since you're looking to fit in the 2nd Bayou have you looked into that switch yet?

[p.faul01]

Hi. I played a tournament last saturday and I want to share with You ;)

Decklist:
LANDS 23
1 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

CREATURES 17
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Dryad Arbor

INSTANTS and SORC. 17
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Painful Truths
4 Path to Exile
1 Golgari Charm

OTHER SPELLS 5
3 Pernicious Deed
1 elspeth knight-errant

Sideboard:
2 Lost Legacy
3 Duress
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pithing Needle
1 Golgari Charm
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Hymn to Tourah
1 Elspeth knight-errant

Played 5 games 1win, 2draw, 2 lose ;(

1. BUG Mirror 0-1
Game1: He starts with Vet, so I go with DRS. He went 5 mana turn 2 thragtusk, lot of removal landed this game. This was really grindy but he overcome me and I can't draw enough removal. This was my first match with meren and I forget about her trigger after deed=3, I would have 2 experience counters.

Game 2: -Gaddock -3 Vet +2Hymn+2needle. He blow me with Thragtusk +titania+ tracker. Not even seen one removal spell ;(

2. BUGr Control: 0-1-1
Game 1: I tought it was delver. Saw volcanic island. Fast Rhino+ rhino done it quickly.

Game 2: -Gaddock +golgari charm
Longest game ever. removal for removal, creatures was whipped, burned and sac for his Lilly. Couldn't draw zenith for Sigarda. He blow Lilly's ultigiving me 3 duals and deed and 4 basics I choosed 4 basics. Flooded after that.

Game 3: -2 golgari charm -2deed +elspeth +2needle
Another long, grindy game, Itought that rhino + elspeth make the deal but termination make a draw.

3. BR Reanimator. 1-1-1
Game 1: Mulligan and, keeped hand with 3 lands zenith deathrite path, sry for reclamation sage and put it on the bottom.
I insanely draw removals, turn 3 karakas from top. Make a game with rhino + sigarda and deathrite.

Game 2: -gaddock -elspeth -golgari charm-reclamation sage +nihil spellbomb +tormods crypt+2 hymns
He shows cancellor of the annex
Started with good 7, karakas+2 lands, 2pte, tormods crypt and zenith.
He 1 land, dark ritual, entomb, exhume, griselbrand
Me: karakas, bounce, crypt
fast game, removing whole his graveyard, and drawing tons of removal.

4. Dark depths combo 1-1-2
Game 1: He started with bayou and sylvan safekeeper, therapy called glimpse of nature, dang wrong ;) Marit turn 4/5.

Game 2: -gaddock -elspeth -3vets -3deed +2lost legacy +2needle +2hymn +spellbomb +tormod
Landed karakas quickly enough, having 2 pte and drawing third. Rhino make a game.

Game 3: Marit lage was faster ;)

5. UWR Delver. 1-2-2 in every match here I missed therapy naming stp, see stifle. naming stifle saw stp and so on.
Game1: Wanted to mischief as maverick playing zenith for 0, dryad, t2 drs, vet. But he sworded/stifled everything.

Game 2: -gaddock -reclamation sage -1rhino -1vet +2hymn +elspeth +golgari charm
t1: therapy naming brainstorm, got2! Elspeth + rhino make a game

Game 3: He had a "control hand". Wasted my duals. He had more lands in game than me :D but termination get us caught as 1-1.

Conclusions:
Elspeth was great when she landed. Second bayou is a MUST HAVE ;) Few missplays on my side. I considering change thruths for sylvan library and getting toxic deluge instead of charms. I needed this -2/-2 or -3 sweeper few times.



Thanx for help :)Good to see another rhino player. Have you considered changing rec sage to qasali pridemage? Synergizes with meren. I don't understand the taiga tbh. Curious how good elspeth performed. Were all abilities relevant? I play kaya in that slot and am quite happy.

Gesendet von meinem SM-J320F mit Tapatalk

[Gruby]

Tripple plains seems very ambitious tbh. Since you're looking to fit in the 2nd Bayou have you looked into that switch yet?

There should be 3swamp instead of 3 plains, I sometimes lacked out of black. But this manabase is budget and crappy ;) I have to take schocklands in place of those missing duals.



Good to see another rhino player. Have you considered changing rec sage to qasali pridemage? Synergizes with meren. I don't understand the taiga tbh. Curious how good elspeth performed. Were all abilities relevant? I play kaya in that slot and am quite happy.

Gesendet von meinem SM-J320F mit Tapatalk

Rhino was cool, but 3 is enough I think. Sometimes I wanted to have some kind of "utility" creature propably -1rhino +1thragtusk (I like him).
Sounds good, I'll have to try qasali next time. If only I won't be missing Meren triggers ;p

Huh, Taiga is a mistake it was +1windswept heath instead of.

I never tried flipping Garruk and I like her, just individual choice.
Againt controls and delvers elspeth is great. Maybe once I used ulti in my life but +1 abilities are really offensive. Token helps with Lillies if you don't have sigarda on battlefield and turn after he became a 4/4 flying beater after deed. Second ability is really nice when you need evasion or just simply quicken the clock (7/8 flying rhino is usually 2 swings). I think that zealous persecution would work better with her.


Ah and as I mentioned hymn is wonderful

[Lobo]

I'm depending on a case of beer, a bottle of aspirin, and Nyx Fit to see me through Eternal Weekend in Pittsburgh. My list most closely resembles one that square_two posted a while ago, though I'm thankful to Ulysse95, Memories of the Times, and Navsi for their many ideas in recent months. Here's what I'm working with:

Lands (22):
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

Creatures (10):
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
4 Academy Rector

Noncreatures (28):
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
3 Evolutionary Leap
2 Sylvan Library
4 Lingering Souls
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Dovescape
1 Cruel Reality
1 Overwhelming Splendor
3 Green Sun's Zenith

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Thoughtseize
2 Lost Legacy
1 Ground Seal
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Toxic Deluge

Maybeboard: Drop of Honey, Starfield of Nyx, Sterling Grove, City of Solitude, Chromanticore

Considerations, in no particular order:

Ulysse95's Crop Rotation package adds a different angle of attack, trading some spot removal and a bit of consistency in the main engine to provide an alternate plan that also improves the S&S, Reanimator, and Lands matchups. If I did this, I would likely go +2 Crop Rotation, +1 Ramunap Excavator, +1 Karakas, +1 Wasteland, +1 Volrath's Stronghold, +1 (sideboard) Bojuka Bog; -1 Lingering Souls, -1 Swords to Plowshares, -1 Phyrexian Tower, -1 Plains, -1 Bayou, -1 Cruel Reality, -1 (sideboard) Sigarda.
The eight leylines eat up a lot of sideboard space, but they also do a lot of work. It's tempting to trim Leyline of Sanctity, but Rector builds are vulnerable to discard effects since so much depends on the lynchpin creature doing its thing, and LoS answers that concern better than anything. This is of course in addition to its obvious uses against burn and storm combo.
Leyline of the Void is best friends with Helm of Obedience. I wish I could justify both it and an Enlightened Tutor in the sideboard. If I have a change of heart and wind up trimming Leyline of Sancitity, this is one way I may go. (I might well have listed Helm+ET in the maybeboard above.)
I'm tempted to remove one GSZ in favor of Recruiter of the Guard. There's something to be said for diversifying my tutoring options, and playing with Recruiter is like having five Rectors in the deck. But GSZ ramps on turn one and becomes a game-ending spell under Dovescape, so I haven't made the switch.

[Kobra_D]

I'm sure you have thought of it, but with large amounts of Walkers, no GSZ, I think trying to squeeze in some number of Oath of Nissa would be worth your while. You suggested more discard; do you feel like you are missing disruption?

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

I started with 4 oath of nissa's and split brainstorms and brutalities. My playgroup talked me out of it, and I was underwhelmed with 4 oath of nissa as it was. I think I'm going to try to fit 2 in before tonight. Not sure, It doesn't look like it's missing anything, but it does look very binary. Either things come up in the perfect order and I control the game into powerful walkers. Or I'm going to draw jace, jace, ugin and 1 land......

This latest iteration I have not been able to test yet, so I'm going in blind.


Stewart of Elements has a very low hit rate in that build, you might as well never use the 0 ability. I think flip walkers are vital to making the card work.

She is more impressive than she looks. Her scry 2 alone with Jace and sylvan library in the deck is fine. Sure, she doesn't cheat in any big creatures, but she keeps the top of the deck fresh, comes down on 3, and at some point can dome for 10 which is nice. Also, works moderately with Nissa VF emblem, jace some lands to the top and then 0 her.

It might be the case of "she works when we're already winning and doesn't necessarily close out the game and doens't help us too much from behind" but there are some synergies with her in the deck.


Hi. I played a tournament last saturday and I want to share with You ;)
Sideboard:
2 Lost Legacy
3 Duress
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pithing Needle
1 Golgari Charm
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Hymn to Tourah
1 Elspeth knight-errant

Played 5 games 1win, 2draw, 2 lose ;(

1. BUG Mirror 0-1
Game1: He starts with Vet, so I go with DRS. He went 5 mana turn 2 thragtusk, lot of removal landed this game. This was really grindy but he overcome me and I can't draw enough removal. This was my first match with meren and I forget about her trigger after deed=3, I would have 2 experience counters.

Game 2: -Gaddock -3 Vet +2Hymn+2needle. He blow me with Thragtusk +titania+ tracker. Not even seen one removal spell ;(

2. BUGr Control: 0-1-1
Game 1: I tought it was delver. Saw volcanic island. Fast Rhino+ rhino done it quickly.

Game 2: -Gaddock +golgari charm
Longest game ever. removal for removal, creatures was whipped, burned and sac for his Lilly. Couldn't draw zenith for Sigarda. He blow Lilly's ultigiving me 3 duals and deed and 4 basics I choosed 4 basics. Flooded after that.

Game 3: -2 golgari charm -2deed +elspeth +2needle
Another long, grindy game, Itought that rhino + elspeth make the deal but termination make a draw.

3. BR Reanimator. 1-1-1
Game 1: Mulligan and, keeped hand with 3 lands zenith deathrite path, sry for reclamation sage and put it on the bottom.
I insanely draw removals, turn 3 karakas from top. Make a game with rhino + sigarda and deathrite.

Game 2: -gaddock -elspeth -golgari charm-reclamation sage +nihil spellbomb +tormods crypt+2 hymns
He shows cancellor of the annex
Started with good 7, karakas+2 lands, 2pte, tormods crypt and zenith.
He 1 land, dark ritual, entomb, exhume, griselbrand
Me: karakas, bounce, crypt
fast game, removing whole his graveyard, and drawing tons of removal.

4. Dark depths combo 1-1-2
Game 1: He started with bayou and sylvan safekeeper, therapy called glimpse of nature, dang wrong ;) Marit turn 4/5.

Game 2: -gaddock -elspeth -3vets -3deed +2lost legacy +2needle +2hymn +spellbomb +tormod
Landed karakas quickly enough, having 2 pte and drawing third. Rhino make a game.

Game 3: Marit lage was faster ;)

5. UWR Delver. 1-2-2 in every match here I missed therapy naming stp, see stifle. naming stifle saw stp and so on.
Game1: Wanted to mischief as maverick playing zenith for 0, dryad, t2 drs, vet. But he sworded/stifled everything.

Game 2: -gaddock -reclamation sage -1rhino -1vet +2hymn +elspeth +golgari charm
t1: therapy naming brainstorm, got2! Elspeth + rhino make a game

Game 3: He had a "control hand". Wasted my duals. He had more lands in game than me :D but termination get us caught as 1-1.

Conclusions:
Elspeth was great when she landed. Second bayou is a MUST HAVE ;) Few missplays on my side. I considering change thruths for sylvan library and getting toxic deluge instead of charms. I needed this -2/-2 or -3 sweeper few times.



Thanx for help :)

Edit: I almost forget< every played hymn was superb!!!

I've played Rhino fit with shocks before I got duals (and still use shocks when I am missing something random like extra taiga's for valakut), and if any deck can get away with shocks is Rhino fit. Having access to your colors is immeasurably better than saving 2 life imo.

It depends on your meta, but I would suggest faerie macabre over tormod's crypt (turn 0 interaction that gets over chancellor triggers).

In general, I would just recommend getting in some practice with the deck, being able to hit on blind therapy is a great skill (or even name reasonably). And closing out grindy game 1's in a timely fashion also helps. It's fine if nic fit takes 35 minutes game 1 if you win g1. Winning the match 1-0 is a classic control strategy. Conversely, since we are not always the control deck, being aware of the round time is relevant. An early concession can be necessary for a better g2/g3.

Lastly, I would recommend at least 1 sweeper that is not cmc 3. Otherwise a D&T player can prelate 3 and you will never interact with them again.

[Brael]

It's fine if nic fit takes 35 minutes game 1 if you win g1. Winning the match 1-0 is a classic control strategy. Conversely, since we are not always the control deck, being aware of the round time is relevant. An early concession can be necessary for a better g2/g3.

This is a pretty bad strategy. If you go this route and you can win 60% of games, you're throwing away a bunch of games where you lose G1 but could have won 2 and 3. Not just in lost G1's but trying to squeeze in 2 more games is really difficult. It's in your own self interest to build a deck that can win in less time., because that gives you the opportunity to recover from a bad G1.

Again, something I've been working on for awhile. That principle lead to me getting rid of my own SDT's because of the time usage, and it's yet another reason why I like Dark Confidant and Tireless Tracker, it's card draw that you can fire off quickly, in contrast with something like GSZ that's slow. It's the sort of reason why you want to prioritize a Tower opening because you can get a 4-5 drop out of it, which will win the game fast.

The time cost of cards is a real thing and since we tutor a lot, and shuffle a lot, it's something to pay attention to.

[Amulet of the HangingLamp]

I have played both Junk and BUG Fit but have decided to try BG because I want to play Bob and Crop Rotation.

Here is the list:

Lands (22)
3 Bayou
5 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Treetop Village
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower

Creatures (17)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

Noncreatures (21)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Crop Rotation
1 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
1 Collective Brutality
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse


Sideboard (15)
1 Maze of Ith
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Thoughtseize
1 Pithing Needle
1 Crop Rotation
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Golgari Charm
2 Lost Legacy
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Nissa, Vital Force


Thoughts on Treetop Village and Sylvan Library in the main? Should Fatal Push be a 2nd Edict or 3rd Decay?

[Brael]

Thoughts on Treetop Village and Sylvan Library in the main? Should Fatal Push be a 2nd Edict or 3rd Decay? Everything else in the main I feel pretty (dark) confidant about.

Very similar to what I play. I would suggest dropping the Intent (there's few things you actually want to sacrifice in this type of build... you generally need board presence).

I think Fatal Push is fine, I don't particularly like the card, but it's not bad. If it were me, I would try to run 2 Collective Brutality and 2 Diabolic Edict.

I would suggest trying to use more Trackers. I've been liking Walking Ballista as a card. It can be a big body with enough mana, it's reach, it's removal, and it's a 0 for Bob. I also like that it's something you can do under a Blood Moon or Chalice.

Treetop is a good answer to Jace but I think Stronghold is better in that slot.

[Plm]

@ BG list : I like crop rotation and bob, but I never understand titania without sylvan safe keeper :eyebrow: why skip protection and one shot in one card ? also chameleon colossus is nice against czech pile (immune to removal, hard to block and is between a 3 turn clock and a 1 turn clock).

@ Lobo : too much mix feelings about leap on my part, but I hope the deck will be nice to you and the beer abondant.

[square_two]

@ BG list : I like crop rotation and bob, but I never understand titania without sylvan safe keeper :eyebrow: why skip protection and one shot in one card ? also chameleon colossus is nice against czech pile (immune to removal, hard to block and is between a 3 turn clock and a 1 turn clock).

Sylvan is very much dead early on when you cannot afford to sacrifice lands to protect your dudes. (and which dudes early on?) You might have a build where you really want to protect an early teeg, tracker...perhaps dark confidant where this isn't the case. I'm trying Safekeeper + Titania in my helm list as a secondary win-con and as a way to protect Trackers, so far not really working to do the latter very well. If you can play some other big dude/threat, then next turn use another GSZ to get followup Safekeeper...then you are probably already fine - or else why not use the second GSZ to grab another fatty?

I've played Titania without Safekeeper and it's generally fine. Grab fetch from yard, play another fetch from hand, play out a 2nd Phyrexian Tower, use Dryad Arbor, Crop Rotate for fetch, etc usually there are ways to make at least 2 tokens which is often enough to close out a game. I've also ran her solo in Green Ramunap stompy, but there you have fetches, City of Traitors, Ghost Quarter, Wasteland to all help trigger her.

[Brael]

Sylvan is very much dead early on when you cannot afford to sacrifice lands to protect your dudes. (and which dudes early on?) You might have a build where you really want to protect an early teeg, tracker...perhaps dark confidant where this isn't the case. I'm trying Safekeeper + Titania in my helm list as a secondary win-con and as a way to protect Trackers, so far not really working to do the latter very well. If you can play some other big dude/threat, then next turn use another GSZ to get followup Safekeeper...then you are probably already fine - or else why not use the second GSZ to grab another fatty?

I've played Titania without Safekeeper and it's generally fine. Grab fetch from yard, play another fetch from hand, play out a 2nd Phyrexian Tower, use Dryad Arbor, Crop Rotate for fetch, etc usually there are ways to make at least 2 tokens which is often enough to close out a game. I've also ran her solo in Green Ramunap stompy, but there you have fetches, City of Traitors, Ghost Quarter, Wasteland to all help trigger her.

I've tried Sylvan Safekeeper in conjunction with Ranger of Eos. It never worked well.

[Kobra_D]

This is a pretty bad strategy. If you go this route and you can win 60% of games, you're throwing away a bunch of games where you lose G1 but could have won 2 and 3. Not just in lost G1's but trying to squeeze in 2 more games is really difficult. It's in your own self interest to build a deck that can win in less time., because that gives you the opportunity to recover from a bad G1.

Again, something I've been working on for awhile. That principle lead to me getting rid of my own SDT's because of the time usage, and it's yet another reason why I like Dark Confidant and Tireless Tracker, it's card draw that you can fire off quickly, in contrast with something like GSZ that's slow. It's the sort of reason why you want to prioritize a Tower opening because you can get a 4-5 drop out of it, which will win the game fast.

The time cost of cards is a real thing and since we tutor a lot, and shuffle a lot, it's something to pay attention to.

I think my point was a bit muddled in the mixture (:laugh:). Even if we build a faster deck and try to play fast (which is whast we should be doing anyways), we can always end up in a stalled board state. If lands has a couple maze of ith's out or a glacial chasm but can't kill us, if Czech pile has an active jace and otherwise both players are in top deck mode, I would recommend conceding g1. Our sideboard options are going to be much better than trying to leverage a g1 from a very far behind position.

A lot of people try to play g1 out, especially in nic fit where we have a lot of singleton answers. But spending 40 minutes in a stalled board g1 is devastating if we lose.

It isn't easy but a pilot has to be aware of positions from which they can likely win vs positions that can easily be lost, and compare those to how much better/worse the match up is games 2/3 post sideboard.

I am looking to try the Bob version and see just how much that improves match ups, I agree otherwise with the sentiment speed kills. I was mostly comenting on how the other player found themselves with 2 draws. Conceding game 1 early may help with winning games 2/3 resulting in more wins.

[Brael]

Speed is why I like having a draw in the deck with haste, especially if it's something you can GSZ. Haste seriously messes with combat math calculations... another reason I like Ballista, it's similar to haste.

[Amulet of the HangingLamp]

Speed is why I like having a draw in the deck with haste, especially if it's something you can GSZ. Haste seriously messes with combat math calculations... another reason I like Ballista, it's similar to haste.

How many Ballistas are you running? 1-2?

[Brael]

How many Ballistas are you running? 1-2?

It goes back and forth. I like 2, it's easier to find the room for 1 though.

[Ulysse95]

I have played both Junk and BUG Fit but have decided to try BG because I want to play Bob and Crop Rotation.

Here is the list:

Lands (22)
3 Bayou
5 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Treetop Village
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower

Creatures (17)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

Noncreatures (21)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Crop Rotation
1 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
1 Collective Brutality
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse


Sideboard (15)
1 Maze of Ith
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Thoughtseize
1 Pithing Needle
1 Crop Rotation
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Golgari Charm
2 Lost Legacy
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Nissa, Vital Force


Thoughts on Treetop Village and Sylvan Library in the main? Should Fatal Push be a 2nd Edict or 3rd Decay? Everything else in the main I feel pretty (dark) confidant about.

I think you should consider Ramunap excavator. It works very well with crop package and tracker (+ with sylvan protector if you put in it too), it's always CA (even if it's lands only).

[Kobra_D]

Speed is why I like having a draw in the deck with haste, especially if it's something you can GSZ. Haste seriously messes with combat math calculations... another reason I like Ballista, it's similar to haste.

Ballista does seem good in a match ups. Helps in fair ones and helps against anything making goblin tokens. That along with Bob are definitely two cards of mine that I look to test at some point once I get my hands on them.

__________
As for locals, I did not play BUG superfriends. Instead I played 4c Punishing Superfriends to include 2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance as well as Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker.

The deck was a terrible enjoyment. If people have access to the cards I would recommend playing it once, as top decking Nicol Bolas is as close to bliss as anything. Or dropping chandra after they drop jace is justice in the purest form.

However, it was easily the worst nic fit deck I've played (yes worse than Temur), so I feel that scratching this on off the list might be where it's at.

For the last week of NicFitober I want to run a GB Gitrog monster deck (seems Halloween themed enough). I know this thread has not bee too pleased with the results of Gitrog but does any one have a list? Can anyone refer me back to a point where this monstrous toad was in discussion?

Much appreciated.

[Ulysse95]

Ballista does seem good in a match ups. Helps in fair ones and helps against anything making goblin tokens. That along with Bob are definitely two cards of mine that I look to test at some point once I get my hands on them.

__________
As for locals, I did not play BUG superfriends. Instead I played 4c Punishing Superfriends to include 2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance as well as Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker.

The deck was a terrible enjoyment. If people have access to the cards I would recommend playing it once, as top decking Nicol Bolas is as close to bliss as anything. Or dropping chandra after they drop jace is justice in the purest form.

However, it was easily the worst nic fit deck I've played (yes worse than Temur), so I feel that scratching this on off the list might be where it's at.

For the last week of NicFitober I want to run a GB Gitrog monster deck (seems Halloween themed enough). I know this thread has not bee too pleased with the results of Gitrog but does any one have a list? Can anyone refer me back to a point where this monstrous toad was in discussion?

Much appreciated.


I would just say that when Gitrog was play tested here (so Innistrad 2 block), Crop Rotation package wasn't tryed already (if I remember well) and Ramunap didn't exist yet... and both together seems just..awesome on paper!
Give us your feed back! :)

[Mr. Safety]

Just so I'm clear: Gitrog + Dakmor Salvage/Crop Rotation (to find it) lets you draw a bunch of cards right?

[Ulysse95]

Just so I'm clear: Gitrog + Dakmor Salvage/Crop Rotation (to find it) lets you draw a bunch of cards right?

If you do it EoT and sac Dakmor at your upkeep, yes indeed ;)
(you gimme the will and taste to give it a try too ;) )

[Brael]

I would just say that when Gitrog was play tested here (so Innistrad 2 block), Crop Rotation package wasn't tryed already (if I remember well) and Ramunap didn't exist yet... and both together seems just..awesome on paper!
Give us your feed back! :)

I'm really not a fan of Ramunap. I've tried hard to like it, but just can't find a shell where it's strong enough. And I've tried building a bunch of decks to make it work.

On Gitrog, I would rather use the GSZ on a Tireless Tracker. It's less mana, just as many cards (if not more), plays better with Crop Rotation, plays better with Bob, and comes down a good 4-5 turns sooner. I think the combination of Tracker+Chameleon Colossus removes pretty much any possible niche Gitrog might fill.

[Hanni]

I've actually put together a pretty cool G/B/r list with Tracker and Ramunap that splashes red only for Destructive Flow maindeck. The list also runs 4 Ghost Quarter. At any rate, Titania, Protector of Argoth is just much better than The Gitrog Monster.

The deck plays much more like Jund than like Nic Fit though. It runs more discard, no Deed, no 4cc creatures, and only 1 Titania at 5cc at the top of the curve. The deck sinks the extra mana from Explorer into clue tokens.

If anyone is interested, I'd be happy to post the list.

[Kobra_D]

I'm really not a fan of Ramunap. I've tried hard to like it, but just can't find a shell where it's strong enough. And I've tried building a bunch of decks to make it work.

On Gitrog, I would rather use the GSZ on a Tireless Tracker. It's less mana, just as many cards (if not more), plays better with Crop Rotation, plays better with Bob, and comes down a good 4-5 turns sooner. I think the combination of Tracker+Chameleon Colossus removes pretty much any possible niche Gitrog might fill.

Yeah, but it will be the last wednesday before halloween, and the gitrog monster is a monster, who is scared of chameleons. When Gitrog was first introduced a gsz'th magus of the crucible didn't exist. This might be able to push it, or might not. Why speculate when we have the tools to test?


I've actually put together a pretty cool G/B/r list with Tracker and Ramunap that splashes red only for Destructive Flow maindeck. The list also runs 4 Ghost Quarter. At any rate, Titania, Protector of Argoth is just much better than The Gitrog Monster.

The deck plays much more like Jund than like Nic Fit though. It runs more discard, no Deed, no 4cc creatures, and only 1 Titania at 5cc at the top of the curve. The deck sinks the extra mana from Explorer into clue tokens.

If anyone is interested, I'd be happy to post the list.

I'm always down for destructive flow, but I would suggest something like that with a grain of salt. As it says on the front page, there is no correct way to play nic fit.

And you can make very powerful land destruction decks like maverick work in a nic fit-y shell. But inherently, we are giving our opponents mana to play their spells. We mitigate this, 1 by playing more basics than most decks, and 2 by having better cards in a vacuum along side cheaper interaction.

So it's not that anything like that can't work, but even giving an opponent 1-2 basics (the most I've seen in decks like BUG/Czech Pile), that just represents 1 more mana that you have to constrain.

[Bignasty197]

If anyone is interested, I'd be happy to post the list.

Please do.

[Hanni]

Yeah, but it will be the last wednesday before halloween, and the gitrog monster is a monster, who is scared of chameleons. When Gitrog was first introduced a gsz'th magus of the crucible didn't exist. This might be able to push it, or might not. Why speculate when we have the tools to test?



I'm always down for destructive flow, but I would suggest something like that with a grain of salt. As it says on the front page, there is no correct way to play nic fit.

And you can make very powerful land destruction decks like maverick work in a nic fit-y shell. But inherently, we are giving our opponents mana to play their spells. We mitigate this, 1 by playing more basics than most decks, and 2 by having better cards in a vacuum along side cheaper interaction.

So it's not that anything like that can't work, but even giving an opponent 1-2 basics (the most I've seen in decks like BUG/Czech Pile), that just represents 1 more mana that you have to constrain.

Giving the opponent mana from Explorer is somewhat conflicting, but most decks only run 1-2 basics, which then turns the Ghost Quarter's into Strip Mine's. The deck doesn't necessarily need to completely mana denial the opponent though... the card advantage that Destructive Flow generates tends to put the deck pretty far ahead in most fair matchups.

At any rate, I'm about to drive out to EW, so I don’t have time to post my list right now, but I promise I will when I have time.

[Hanni]

Here is the list I was talking about...

G/B/r Nic-Flow

Lands (23)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Badlands
5 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Ghost Quarter

Creatures (15)
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tireless Tracker
2 Ramunap Excavator
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

Spells (22)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Destructive Flow

I'm still up in the air with the sideboard, so I'm not going to post it yet.

The deck is still fairly early in development. There are some good options like Walking Ballista and Toxic Deluge which could find their way into the maindeck. Collective Brutality is also an interesting option.

I trimmed the Scavenging Ooze and Reclamation Sage because I didn't want to cut anything else. I think that Ramunap as a 2-of is the perfect amount. I'm not sure if I should include a Dryad Arbor, but it seems kinda greedy with Flow so I'm not running one for now.

I'm not 100% sure about DRS, but the deck has a bunch of high impact 3 drops that I'd like to be able to cast on turn 2 when possible. It's also possible to take the deck into more of an Aggro Loam direction with Mox Diamond and Chalice of the Void instead, cutting the Nic Fit package (Explorer/Therapy). Another idea I had was to cut the Thoughtseize for Crop Rotation with a Bojuka Bog and Cabal Pit, which both play nice with Flow, but I like being able to consistently rip the opponent's hand apart. Hymn to Tourach is another possibility, but I think Thoughtseize has more synergy with Therapy, and getting double black on turn 2 is pretty difficult with the manabase configuration required to support Flow.

The biggest thing I was trying to accomplish was to build a deck with Destructive Flow that would be both fun and competitive. I feel like this current iteration accomplishes that.

[Echelon]

On Gitrog, I would rather use the GSZ on a Tireless Tracker. It's less mana, just as many cards (if not more), plays better with Crop Rotation, plays better with Bob, and comes down a good 4-5 turns sooner. I think the combination of Tracker+Chameleon Colossus removes pretty much any possible niche Gitrog might fill.

Most importantly: it's good on its own, without depending on other cards for much needed synergy. Just keep playing the game as you normally would and reap the rewards as you go along.


Yeah, but it will be the last wednesday before halloween, and the gitrog monster is a monster, who is scared of chameleons. When Gitrog was first introduced a gsz'th magus of the crucible didn't exist. This might be able to push it, or might not. Why speculate when we have the tools to test?

...

I'm always down for destructive flow, but I would suggest something like that with a grain of salt. As it says on the front page, there is no correct way to play nic fit.

Still doesn't solve Gitrog's problem though - it depends on other cards to function optimally, hence you shouldn't bother with it. Just GSZ for Sigarda/Carnage Tyrant (depending on what colours you run) and call it a day.

As for your last comment: Be that as it may, that does not mean that there aren't wrong ways to play Nic Fit.

[Mr. Safety]

Giving the opponent mana from Explorer is somewhat conflicting, but most decks only run 1-2 basics, which then turns the Ghost Quarter's into Strip Mine's.

In my limited understanding, this seems like the same reason for using Path to Exile over Swords to Plowshares: you're already giving them basics with Explorer, they will likely run out, one more basic land doesn't really matter and quite possibly it becomes W:exile target creature with no drawback. Ghost Quarter becomes Strip Mine after 1-2 explorer triggers. I also think this GQ interaction is relevant because of Turbo Depths, which names Wasteland often and uses GQ instead to deal with trouble lands. It looks a lot like a modern format consideration, but I might sideboard a Ghost Quarter just for this reason.

Just a question: does your deck feel light on threats?

[Amulet of the HangingLamp]

Played against Grixis Delver, UWx Control, Dragon Stompy, Mono Black Pox, BUG Midrange, and Show and Tell last night (some online and some in person) with overall good results.

Lands (22)
3 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Treetop Village
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Creatures (18)
2 Walking Ballista
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

Noncreatures (20)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Crop Rotation
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Sylvan Library
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge


Sideboard (15)
1 Maze of Ith
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Pithing Needle
1 Crop Rotation
1 Golgari Charm
2 Lost Legacy
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Nissa, Vital Force

First of all, Tireless Tracker is an absolute all star. I definitely agree with Brael that you should have at least 3 in this kind of build. Crop Rotation with Tracker is insane. I also decided to try Walking Ballista. I do like the fact that it can be played on T2 as a 1/1 and can hit Strix, Pyromancer, unflipped Delvers, Hierarch, etc. while taking 0 from Bob. However, I did not draw it enough to decide if it should stay in the deck. I wish there was an easier way to search it up. I thought about trying a single Traverse the Ulvenwald but obtaining delirium in this build is more difficult than BUG (no Strix). So far I have liked Treetop Village as a way to deal with Jace and give you a threat post Pernicious Deed. It will stay in for the time being. Meren/Titania with Karakas was great. Finally, I am on the fence about Dryad Arbor. It allows for a T2 Lost Legacy/3 mana removal spell, is good with Meren and it can be fetched EOT but it dies to Deed or Deluge.

Thoughts?

[Brael]

First of all, Tireless Tracker is an absolute all star. I definitely agree with Brael that you should have at least 3 in this kind of build. Crop Rotation with Tracker is insane. I also decided to try Walking Ballista. I do like the fact that it can be played on T2 as a 1/1 and can hit Strix, Pyromancer, unflipped Delvers, Hierarch, etc. while taking 0 from Bob. However, I did not draw it enough to decide if it should stay in the deck. I wish there was an easier way to search it up. I thought about trying a single Traverse the Ulvenwald but obtaining delirium in this build is more difficult than BUG (no Strix). So far I have liked Treetop Village as a way to deal with Jace and give you a threat post Pernicious Deed. It will stay in for the time being. Meren/Titania with Karakas was great. Finally, I am on the fence about Dryad Arbor. It allows for a T2 Lost Legacy/3 mana removal spell, is good with Meren and it can be fetched EOT but it dies to Deed or Deluge.

Thoughts?

Just think of Walking Ballista as a removal spell. You don't necessarily need to tutor it, it's just a versatile card when you do, though I have been experimenting with red/white to tutor it.

I would stay away from Traverse.

Dryad Arbors main purpose is that it's another way to develop your mana, to get to 3 on T2.

One thing you may want to consider, is not playing Deed, since you noted many interactions that are bad with Deed.

[Kobra_D]

Most importantly: it's good on its own, without depending on other cards for much needed synergy. Just keep playing the game as you normally would and reap the rewards as you go along.



Still doesn't solve Gitrog's problem though - it depends on other cards to function optimally, hence you shouldn't bother with it. Just GSZ for Sigarda/Carnage Tyrant (depending on what colours you run) and call it a day.

As for your last comment: Be that as it may, that does not mean that there aren't wrong ways to play Nic Fit.

I get what you're going for here, but in a technical sense it is wrong.

By themselves, Gitrog doesn't require anything more to work. Tireless tracker requires land drops and 2 mana per clue to function. You can easily argue or debate over cmc versus power, or the fact that Gitrog is hosed by a value karakas, but that doesn't change the fucntioning by themselves clause of your argument.

Bob by definition has been a build around creature. So, to say that Gitrog doesn't play well with confidant further goes against your previous argument against Gitrog.

What are these optimal cards to function correctly? By itself it's a 6/6 death touch beater. You can argue it gets blocked by elemental tokens, but so does Tracker.

I'm not saying that the intuition on Gitrog is wrong, but things have changed since it was tried previously. Why not re-evaluate the card?

[Hanni]

I get what you're going for here, but in a technical sense it is wrong.

By themselves, Gitrog doesn't require anything more to work. Tireless tracker requires land drops and 2 mana per clue to function. You can easily argue or debate over cmc versus power, or the fact that Gitrog is hosed by a value karakas, but that doesn't change the fucntioning by themselves clause of your argument.

Bob by definition has been a build around creature. So, to say that Gitrog doesn't play well with confidant further goes against your previous argument against Gitrog.

What are these optimal cards to function correctly? By itself it's a 6/6 death touch beater. You can argue it gets blocked by elemental tokens, but so does Tracker.

I'm not saying that the intuition on Gitrog is wrong, but things have changed since it was tried previously. Why not re-evaluate the card?

But the thing is, both Titania and Gitrog are 5cc, and Titania is almost always going to be better. Making 5/3 tokens is better than drawing a card, and Titania gives you immediate value by returning a land. Gitrog really needs Loam to get insane value, but if I'm playing Loam, I'd rather play Worm Harvest at 5cc.

[Echelon]

Also, Gitrog effectively halts the development of your manabase. One land out, one land in (if you draw one). So possibly you destroy your own mana develipment, effecrively reverting you to the midgame.

Feel free to try it out for yourself though. I'm just telling you what the result will be.

[Lueseto]

Gitrog does let you play an additional land per turn so if you have lands you can continue to develop your manabase. Having tried both I can tell that is seldom the case and that titania closes the game, with in a single turn, which is what I expect from a 5-drop rather than CA (titania into fetch into crop wasteland yourself is 25 power)

[Brael]

Gitrog does let you play an additional land per turn so if you have lands you can continue to develop your manabase. Having tried both I can tell that is seldom the case and that titania closes the game, with in a single turn, which is what I expect from a 5-drop rather than CA (titania into fetch into crop wasteland yourself is 25 power)

I'm not a big Titania fan but Titania into fetch, into crop, into fetch is still a reasonable line that doesn't rely on Wasteland and gets you 20 power.

[pettdan]

Ooh, Arianrhod (spelling? never get it right) live playing Scapefit at www.twitch.tv/cardtitan at Eternal Weekend.

Edit:
Playing vs ANT, that can be rough.

G1: ANT goes off on t2 with Past in Flames.
G2: t3 Lost Legacy for something. I'm going to guess Tendrils, there's still an Empty the Warrens in the deck. Kevin wins, Ruben drew a lot of Hurkyl's Recalls and Decay, commentators are speculating that he overboarded, not knowing what he was up against.
G3: Ruben starts with Probe + Duress taking Kevin's Therapy. Kevin draws Thoughtseize and takes Dark Ritual from a hand of 2 Ponder and 1 Ritual. A few turns later Kevin has a hand of 2 lands and a Scapeshift and a board of 4 lands. It seems like a topdecked GSZ or Veteran will end it, there's a Therapy in the Graveyard. Ruben is at 13, Kevin draws the GSZ. Therapys, Brainstorm in response.. Shows 3 sorceries. Kevin Scapeshifts and - yep, 2-1!

[Echelon]

Ooh, Arianrhod (spelling? never get it right) live playing Scapefit at www.twitch.tv/cardtitan at Eternal Weekend.

Edit:
Playing vs ANT, that can be rough.

G1: ANT goes off on t2 with Past in Flames.

Lol, dammit.

Concerning lands and Gitrog - in order to play them, you need to draw them. Wanting to keep drawing lands to keep your landcount constant (or growing) sounds like a poor plan.

[Brael]

Is it Nic Fit? It looks to me like it's just Scapeshift. But I've only seen game 3.

NM. There's a Vet. Looks like he wins.

[Brael]

Lol, dammit.

Concerning lands and Gitrog - in order to play them, you need to draw them. Wanting to keep drawing lands to keep your landcount constant (or growing) sounds like a poor plan.

Given fetchlands and Crop Rotation, if Gitrog comes down on say turn 7 you're probably looking at around 14/40 cards remaining in your deck that are lands. So in order for your mana development to just break even you need to draw nearly 3 cards/turn. Gitrog gives you 1, and your draw gives you 1, so you need something else to give you 1. If you want your mana to continue to develop, you're looking at needing 6 cards/turn, which is 4/turn after Gitrog. And even then, it's a rate that can only be sustained for a few turns before your deck is totally out of lands, and your mana development again goes backwards.

I'm not a fan of Titania, but as far as 5 drops go, Titania is much, much better. 5/3 tokens are still effectively free cards.

[Icapica]

Is there any decklist available for something similar to what was just seen in the EW? I really liked how it looked and I''ve been thinking of getting a new Legacy deck finally.

[Kobra_D]

We have a new opportunity with Ramunap Excavator. Life from the Loam and even crop rotation are not necessary in a build (although may still provide value). I'm just saying that things have changed, it might be worthwhile to reevaluate some cards. Far from saying that Gitrog is the best and solves all scenarios, but it does do something cool worth checking out.

All that being said, it's probably not going to work out but I do have the cards, and the time. Getting 10 matches in can only help.

**I can't believe I missed valakut on stream >.>

[pettdan]

Is there any decklist available for something similar to what was just seen in the EW? I really liked how it looked and I''ve been thinking of getting a new Legacy deck finally.

Edit: hmm, would it be better to wait until after the tournament? In case some opponent is curious to read the decklist before a round. I'll just wait a few hours updating. I found the list anyway. Probably ridiculous but well.

[MrIggins]

Is there any decklist available for something similar to what was just seen in the EW? I really liked how it looked and I''ve been thinking of getting a new Legacy deck finally.

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Regisaur Alpha
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Carnage Tyrant

3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Burning Wish
2 Scapeshift

2 Abrupt Decay

2 Nissa, Vital Force

2 Sylvan Library
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Badlands
4 Taiga
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills

sb::
1 Scapeshift
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Pyroclasm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Innocent Blood
1 Lost Legacy
2 Slaughter Games
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pulse of Murasa

I believe this is where Kevin landed this weekend, plus or minus a card or two. This is the most recent list I have from him as of a few days ago, with the Pulse of Murasa in the board being a flex slot that he and I have discussed a fair amount.

[Echelon]

Given fetchlands and Crop Rotation, if Gitrog comes down on say turn 7 you're probably looking at around 14/40 cards remaining in your deck that are lands. So in order for your mana development to just break even you need to draw nearly 3 cards/turn. Gitrog gives you 1, and your draw gives you 1, so you need something else to give you 1. If you want your mana to continue to develop, you're looking at needing 6 cards/turn, which is 4/turn after Gitrog. And even then, it's a rate that can only be sustained for a few turns before your deck is totally out of lands, and your mana development again goes backwards.

I'm not a fan of Titania, but as far as 5 drops go, Titania is much, much better. 5/3 tokens are still effectively free cards.

You're awesome!


We have a new opportunity with Ramunap Excavator. Life from the Loam and even crop rotation are not necessary in a build (although may still provide value). I'm just saying that things have changed, it might be worthwhile to reevaluate some cards. Far from saying that Gitrog is the best and solves all scenarios, but it does do something cool worth checking out.

All that being said, it's probably not going to work out but I do have the cards, and the time. Getting 10 matches in can only help.

**I can't believe I missed valakut on stream >.>

Dude, the math says we don't and things haven't changed enough. I'm sorry man, it's just not gonna work. Please do know that I'd honestly love to be proven wrong though! Let us know how your testing works out!

[Brael]

You're awesome!

I know. I think the main point I'm getting at is that Gitrog is not CA. You're giving up a card every turn it's on the battlefield, and while you can draw enough to replace that, you'll still on average lose resources.

For a 5 drop, or even a lower drop than that I'm always looking to get ahead on cards. It's the same reason I won't play Intent even in a deck full of 2:1 creatures. I don't want to give up cards.

[Echelon]

:laugh:

For 5-drops it's either that or Sigarda.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I wish spiritmonger were still a playable card...

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[Brael]

ScapeFit at 6-1 right now. Looks like Arianrod is going to make day 2.

[Matsu]

Hi all,
After a 2 months break from Magic, I played win a tundra at my LGS store today.
As always when I go for a relaxing game during the weekend I pick NicFit. I am very happy with the deck, It worked very well for me so here is the battle report. I have expected all sorts of delvers, blades and D&T decks.

Deck list:

Lands:
Phyrexian tower
Dryad arbor
Treetop village
2 Bayou
2 savannah
Scrubland
2 forest
2 swamp
2 plains
4 windswept heath
4 wooded foothills --> I forgot I lend my catacambs to a friend months ago, change was irrelevant.

Spells:
4 cabal therapy
4 green’s sun zenith
4 Path to exile
3 Abrupt decay
Vindicate
Toxic deluge
2 pernicious deed
Sylvan library

Creatures:
4 veteran explorer
2 deathrite shaman
Exemplar of strength
Scavenging ooze
Eternal witness
Tireless tracker
2 siege rhino
Thragtusk
Sigarda, host of herons
Dragonlord dromoka

Walkers:
Nissa, vital force
Elspeth, sun’s champion

Side:
2 choke
Gaddock teeg
Reclamation sage
Pithing needle
Pernicious deed
Engineered plague
Ethersworn canonist
Golgari charm
Extirpate
Surgical extraction
2 faerie macabre
2 duress

Battle report:

Battle1
Bant Blade - a friend

First game
I know him very well so I keep a good hand with deathrite, bayou, cabal therapy, decay, path. Unfortunately I never drew another land and my bayou finish in the bin after his wasteland.
I side in needle , plague, charm, 2 choke, sage.

Second game
I do not remember much, but treetop village kills his jace TMS and I vindicate his jitte. Then toxic for 2 to remove two shamans and hierarch. Thragtusk and Rhino hit the board. He scopes after drawing a land.

Third game
I cabal therapy his brainstorm, he keeps drawing shamans and Hierarch. I siege rhino him , he plays batterskull, he swings with trigger, no blocks. I GSZ sage and kill batterskull. He plays TNN we start to grind. People are watching the match around us, it is very tense so he misses hierarch trigger and shaman triggers. I am on 1 and I put him on 6 with my Sigarda. He swings with everything I respond with golgari charm killing TNN and blanking shamans. I keep countering his shamans with my ooze, he only have one U-Sea so one activation per turn. I top deck a rhino and swing with Sigarda. GG. Rhino from the top to the face is always good :tongue:

1-0-0

Battle 2
Bant Blade – unknown guy

First game
I go first, I know he is on blue, I saw a spell queller before the tournament. He watched my match. So fair intel. I start and go foothills, bayou, therapy on brainstorm hit 2. He plays a land with a sad face. I veteran explorer, flashback therapy on spell queller (he does not play basics). He passes, I play a land and rhino to avoid daze. Next turn I play deathrite and swing. Vindicate on his land. He does nothing and scope after I play thragtusk.
Sideboard same as above

Second game
He plays a couple of shamans, I do the same. I play therapy on Force of will-->clear, play choke. He plays a land, activate shaman and put jitte in play, I reset his board with deeds on 2. Next turn I play Elspeth, GG.

2-0-0

Battle 3
Lands – unknown guy

First game
He tells me that last game he went on time. So I assume he is on some sort of Miracles. I was wrong. I fetch a Bayou and play cabal therapy on turn 1, I see 2 wastelands, taiga, grove, burning wish, maze, mox. Sh!t. I have a bayou in hand. He waste the bayou. I play savannah and deathrite shaman. He plays exploration, ramps, kills next bayou, he crop rotation and finish me with dark depths.

Second Game
I put all graveyard hate I have: extirpate, surgical extraction, faerie macabre, pithing needle. He does not know what I play so he just put one or two cards in it. I play carefully scooze on turn two, don’t fetch duals, he plays maze, tabernacle at the end I finish him with dromoka, nissa, scooze constantly eating his graveyard.

Third game
This is what i like, an incredible Grindfest. I mulligan to 6 and I keep a very good, but extremely slow hand: swamp, shaman, therapy, surgical extraction, faerie macabre and path. He plays catacombs, pass. I go therapy on punishing fire + surgical, hit like a boss. He plays a land, I draw sylvan library and play deathrite shaman. He ramps, I try to eat his lands hoping to draw another land. I eventually am able to safely cast sylvan library leaving open shaman. Library brings me needle so I play it on thespian stage. He casts loam, I faerie macabre it. He burning wish for a card that kills an enchantment and artifact. At the moment I fill safe I have 2 lands, shaman in play and on my hand path to exile and extirpate. He combo of after killing pithing needle. I extirpate depths and kills marit lage with path. We go to turns. We draw the game both at around 20 life.

2-0-1

Battle 4
I expect he is on some sort of Sneak and Show, because he borrowed a deck from one of our pal. I am right :cool: we got deck checked. So we watch our friend opening packs and practice for the incoming sealed GP. 15 min later.

First game
I go first, ramp with Deathrite shaman. He plays volcanic island and ponders for 2 turns then plays an ancient tomb. I vindicate the tomb (after thinking about this I could have kill the volcanic island). He top deck city of traitor, plays lotus petal and sneak attack. I play a land and pass. He goes intuition for emrakul, pick one, casts it via sneak attack, I respond with to the slaughter. He cannot believe it. I laugh and on my turn plays rhino, I have nothing else to cast. On his turn he passes. I untap play sylvan library, swing and pray. End of my turn he plays Grizzlybrand, digs for Emy, kills me.

I side extirpate, surgical extraction, pithing needle, gaddock teeg, 2 choke.

Second game
I go therapy for Show and tell turn one, miss. He ponders. I play a shaman, pass. He goes, petal, sneak, I say ok and draw a land. He plays Emrakul kill my board and top deck Grizzlybrand next turn. GG

2-1-1

Battle 5
Jund – unknown guy

First game
The guy says he is lazy and does not want to move, so we have to squeeze ourselves at an 8 players table when there is one empty at the end of the shop. My notebook falls on the floor, dice everywhere. There is no place for my cards, I am tilted, I came here for fun, but some people are just not nice. He goes first and bloodstained mire. Great, I expect Reanimator, at least it will be fast, I was wrong. I play therapy on exhume and sees Jund. He goes turn two Hymn to Tourach. I try to ramp manage to therapy double goyf and kolaghan’s command, but he draws double Liliana of the veil to kill my hand. I am stuck on 5 lands and Reset the board with deeds on two. Draw Elpseth, but Liliana eats it. I eventually kill Liliana on 6 with decay. But he top decks better then I, first library, then BBE into goyf and flayer. I try to slow him a little with my removals, but finish drawing only therapy and shaman.

I do not know how to sideboard so i just put rec. sage for his sylvan library and an additional deed.

Second game
I am chilling, I should have the edge if I manage to ramp faster than him. I start with therapy on Tourach, hit, ramp a little with explorer kills Liliana the last hope and I am stuck on 4 lands. I have a mediocre hand at the moment one threat per turn, he hymn to tourach me removing GSZ and Dromoka, the best cards in my hand. He has an amazing draw dark confidant into sylvan library and draws all he needs. My rhino and deathrite shaman cannot hold his onslaught. I am on 2 life when I draw Toxic deluge to his board of 2 deathrite shamans, confidant, BBE, sylvan library. GG.

2-2-1

Great tournament, I had a great fun playing my beloved deck, even if it is not very well positioned at the moment. I think this is the best shell in WBG. The sideboard can be changed depends on your meta. The only card I am not sure in the main is To the slaughter and Elspeth. If you expect less TNN change To the slaughter and switch Toxic deluge with pernicious deed between side and main.

At the end the meta looked like that:
2 elves, 3 burn, 2 Sneak and show, 2 bant blade, Jeskai blade, Jund, Food Chain, Lands and a couple of decks I did not scout. ZERO Delver and ZERO D&T. Total of 17 players.

My MVP were sylvan library, I really miss SDT in this deck. Vindicate was great very versatile and treetop was fantastic, it appears only once on the board, but the little ape manage to kill Jace TMS. I will definitely keep it in the main.

Still have huge problems with Lillian of the veil and I am not a big fan of dryad arbor even if I manage to fetch it for therapy activation twice in the tournament.

Good luck, any question just ask.

[rubblekill]

Kevin you have been the best commentator on stream during those 5-10 minutes [emoji1]
Congratulations for your performance!

[Brael]

Was inspired a bit by the ScapeFit list that did so well (looks like 10th place), thoughts on this? Trying to merge my usual SE build with Scapeshift as a combo win.

Land 25
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Badlands
4 Taiga
1 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Dryad Arbor

Creatures 19
1 Walking Ballista
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dragonmaster Outcast
1 Sakura Tribe-Elder
3 Dark Confidant
2 Imperial Recruiter
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Huntmaster of the Fells

Spells 18
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Collective Brutality
1 Burning Wish
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Scapeshift

Sideboard 15
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Carpet of Flowers
4 Lost Legacy
1 Sylvan Scrying
1 Maze of Ith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Collective Brutality
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Scapeshift

62 card special. Thoughts from the Scapeshift players?

[Memories of the Time]

@Nyx Fit player: how is your manipulation department?
I'm finding the last verions with 4 Souls and 3 Leap perfect: as said before, i've switched all my spot removal with Collective Brutality, so good every time to not be played in 4x.
Right now i'm running 3 Mirri's Guile and 2 Scroll Rack, have you find other configurations ok?

I can't wait to be in the next weekend, big tournament in my city and finally i'll bring this version. Testing on cockatrice is giving me awesome results and like 95% win rate, and the best part is that the biggest part of my opponents were playing combo decks!

[square_two]

@Nyx Fit player: how is your manipulation department?
I'm finding the last verions with 4 Souls and 3 Leap perfect: as said before, i've switched all my spot removal with Collective Brutality, so good every time to not be played in 4x.
Right now i'm running 3 Mirri's Guile and 2 Scroll Rack, have you find other configurations ok?

I can't wait to be in the next weekend, big tournament in my city and finally i'll bring this version. Testing on cockatrice is giving me awesome results and like 95% win rate, and the best part is that the biggest part of my opponents were playing combo decks!

That is curious, I might try that out. I've been on 3 swords, 1 decay, 2 brutality, 2 deed for a while for removal. 2 library, 1 guile, 3 leaps with 3 souls. I did like it back when I had 4 souls. Going all the way with Brutality intrigues me. What's your landbase look like? I've enjoyed having a plethora of turn 1 plays. And you don't think scroll rack is too slow? I tend to just be OK with occasional enchantments in hand, possible to ramp to them.

Very tempted to include Gavony Township if I go up to 4 souls again, I still recall a posted list on here with that predator 3 drop enchantment that puts counters on attackers 😛

[Arianrhod]

Should have a report up tomorrow or Tuesday.

Here's the "official" list that I ran -- I think Sam got it right, but just in case he missed something I figured I'd post it.

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Regisaur Alpha
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Carnage Tyrant

3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Burning Wish
2 Scapeshift

2 Abrupt Decay

2 Nissa, Vital Force

2 Sylvan Library
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Badlands
4 Taiga
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills

sb::
1 Scapeshift
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Pyroclasm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Innocent Blood
1 Lost Legacy
2 Slaughter Games
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pulse of Murasa

[Memories of the Time]

That is curious, I might try that out. I've been on 3 swords, 1 decay, 2 brutality, 2 deed for a while for removal. 2 library, 1 guile, 3 leaps with 3 souls. I did like it back when I had 4 souls. Going all the way with Brutality intrigues me. What's your landbase look like? I've enjoyed having a plethora of turn 1 plays. And you don't think scroll rack is too slow? I tend to just be OK with occasional enchantments in hand, possible to ramp to them.

Very tempted to include Gavony Township if I go up to 4 souls again, I still recall a posted list on here with that predator 3 drop enchantment that puts counters on attackers 😛

I post my list to be clear:

// 2 Artifact
2 Scroll Rack

// 10 Creature
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
4 Academy Rector
1 Dryad Arbor

// 12 Enchantment
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Evolutionary Leap
1 Dovescape
1 Sandwurm Convergence
1 Cast Out (most maybe card md)
1 Overwhelming Splendor
3 Mirri's Guile

// 22 Land
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Phyrexian Tower

// 14 Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Collective Brutality
4 Lingering Souls


// 15 Sideboard
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 3 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Ground Seal
SB: 2 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Lost Legacy

I don't find the reason to play a non-colored land that's not Tower or Cavern. We have a plan so strong and so straight-forward that trying to go aggro... it doesn't really mean anything to me right now.
The main pros about Brutality is to have 8 md discards to slow Combo down and a goldfish with the realistic opportunity to close the game before them even in g1-
Scroll rack is slow but brainstorm is what this deck lacks to being a tier 1, imho, for many reasons. Rack is very good except the first 3-4 turns and the possibility of shuffle away big ench is too good, imho.

[fireiced]

Should have a report up tomorrow or Tuesday.

Here's the "official" list that I ran -- I think Sam got it right, but just in case he missed something I figured I'd post it.

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Regisaur Alpha
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Carnage Tyrant

3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Burning Wish
2 Scapeshift

2 Abrupt Decay

2 Nissa, Vital Force

2 Sylvan Library
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Badlands
4 Taiga
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills

sb::
1 Scapeshift
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Pyroclasm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Innocent Blood
1 Lost Legacy
2 Slaughter Games
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pulse of Murasa

Congrats on getting 10th! Thank you for making us all proud!

[Echelon]

Hi all,
After a 2 months break from Magic, I played win a tundra at my LGS store today.

...

My MVP were sylvan library, I really miss SDT in this deck.

Welcome, welcome.

Have you tried Mirri's Guile in your SDT slots?


Should have a report up tomorrow or Tuesday.

Congrats on the result!

[Matsu]

Welcome, welcome.

Have you tried Mirri's Guile in your SDT slots?


Congrats on the result!

Yes, this is not the card I am looking for.
Mirri's Guile only provide card selection. I need cheap card selection and draw. SDT was perfect at it, but totally broken:wink: and I don't want to play blue in NicFit.
I will prefer to add an additional Sylvan Library instead of Mirri's Guile.


I might sleeve WishFit looks like lots of fun. Congrats on the results.

[Navsi]

Played BUG Empath again this weekend. Finished up 3-1-1 at a 22 player event, just missing out on the cut to top4 in 5th place.

List:

2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Fierce Empath
1 Eternal Witness

2 Elder Deep-Fiend
1 Tombstalker

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Sylvan Library

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Collective Brutality
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay

Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Lost Legacy
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Collective Brutality
1 To The Slaughter
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Pulse of Murasa
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Pernicious Deed

Match 1: Deathblade

My opponent makes Deathrite into Stoneforge. I bounce a Germ token with Jace but he ends up dying to SFM / Snapcaster beats. Nissa and some Trackers eat STPs and I get beaten to death by Tasigur.

Game 2 plays out very similarly, only I find a Pernicious Deed this time around he proceeds to lose.

Game 3 is going pretty well (I finish up with Leovold Tracker Nissa on board, a full hand, and a couple Explorer triggers ready to go) but time on the round is called on turn two and I can't finish quickly enough. I'm pretty sure this would have been a win if we'd had more time.

0-0-1

Match 2: Burn

My Deathrite eats a Rift Bolt. I don't have any lifegain in hand and eat a Fireblast to finish me off as I start dealing with his creatures.

Game 2 I mulligan to 5 or so and don't hit any particularly relevant cards (or green sources). I trade Strixes for a couple creatures and proceed to get murdered by a large Swiftspear and a Fireblast.

0-1-1

Match 3: D&T

My opponent opens on Plains, Vial. I end up facing down a double SFM, Batterskull with Germ, SOFI, Jitte board. I end up having to take one attack and go down to 4 life, then am able to make the mana to Elder Deep-Fiend his board. I get to do it again next turn, then leave him with no relevant cards in hand and Jace bounce his Germ - he bounced and replayed it to have it untapped, so it doesn't have a SOFI on it at that point. I have two colorless blockers for his Stoneforges, but he topdecks the flickerwisp to remove one of them and kills me with one equip on each SFM.

Game 2 I make an Explorer, he makes Vial again, and I get to Therapy two Mother Of Runes out of his hand. He makes a Revoker naming JTMS, a Gideon AoZ and a Recruiter. I make a Deed for 2, he Flickerwisps his Revoker, and I let my Leovold die to Flickerwisp in order to kill Gideon. Revoker comes back and names JTMS again - Liliana LH kills Revoker, I make Jace and start Fatesealing him and he scoops.

Game 3 he makes a Vial again but misses his third land drop, so I blind Therapy naming Flickerwisp and get a double hit, then take Gideon on the flashback. He's left with very little gas available so I beat him down with a Leovold and an Ashaya token.

1-1-1

Match 4: Burn

I have no other turn one plays going first, so I blind Therapy Brainstorm (I hate doing that, never works) and see double Bolt, Swiftspear, Price, etc. He makes Swiftspear. I choose to make Strix to flashback therapy rather than Zenith explorer, so he doesn't get the opportunity to cast his Bolts, and take them out of his hand. I get another Strix and trade it for his Swiftspear, make Liliana LH and turn off his Goblin Guide and Zenith for Scavenging Ooze to regain some life and stabilize.

Game 2 I get to spend turn two casting Collective Brutality (pitching two blue cards I can't cast) to kill an Eidolon, drain back the Eidolon damage, and take a Flame Rift from his hand. Liliana turns off his Goblin Guide again, I make a Tracker. He makes a second Eidolon, a Pyrostatic Pillar, and a Sulfuric Vortex (while I have Pulse of Murasa and Jitte in hand..). Fortunately he only has Eidolon for creatures on the board, so I just don't play any cards, tick up Lili to prevent his swingbacks and kill him with Tracker and his own Sulfuric Vortex.

2-1-1

Match 5: Lands

I know my opponent is on lands, and Therapy Exploration on turn one, seeing depths, stage, gamble, taiga, Mox Diamond and something. I am pretty glad I hit that Therapy. He threatens to make an early Marit Lage but I have three Strixes and a Clique to block with. He doesn't find a Punishing Fire quickly, and eventually he makes Marit and I get to bounce it with Jace and kill him.

Game 2 I make a Clique to block Marit for a couple turns after she turns up early, but then don't find the second black source to cast Tombstalker and can't make another blocker.

Game 3 he had Depths + Stage naturally again but doesn't have two more mana for a couple turns. He Gambles for a PFire (to kill my Deathrite) rather than a Loam, and I get to Surgical his PFire and Lost Legacy his Loams. Eventually he finds a Grove and makes Marit Lage, so I sac Nissa to emerge an Elder Deep Fiend to tap all his stuff, then bounce the token with Jace and kill him with my octopus and a Tireless Tracker.

3-1-1, 5th place, just miss out on top4.

Deck felt pretty solid. Tombstalker didn't really do much, EDF was still great. I never actually saw fierce empath, but naturally drawn EDFs did plenty of work. Didn't side in Emrakul at all, since I didn't face any control decks. Might have brought him in against Deathblade, but was concerned about getting quickly killed before he could ever come down. Might go back up to a third Deed. Manabase was fine.

[Littlesamsonite]

The 11th place list from Eternal Weekend for any interested parties.

3 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Voice of Resurgence
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Leovold Emissary of Trest
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Protector of Argoth
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Carnage Tyrant

1 Sylvan Library
1 Pernicious Deed

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Toxic Deluge

2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Crop Rotation

1 Nissa, Vital Force

2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Wasteland

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the void
1 Lost Legacy
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 To The Slaughter
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Flusterstorm
1 Golgari Charm
1 Thoughtseize
1 Engineered Plague
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Krosan Grip

[Plm]

@ nyx fit : I've ditched evo leap (too much variation) and am currently testing 4 green sun 2 mirri's guile 1 scroll rack. As I play more creatures, green sun is back to its old self.

@ thread : mid november I'll attend the geneva legacy 10. Alas most of my collection is away and I won't be able to play nyx fit.

I can't decide between rhino fit and bob fit (brael's low to the ground).

advice? suggestions ?

[Brael]

We got 2 in the top 16?

[Littlesamsonite]

We got 2 in the top 16?

Yes, the picture of dueling Carnage Tyrants was from the 7-1 bracket.

[Dalton!]

What Variant was the other Deck then?

[Lueseto]

Is there any video left from the tournament with some nic fit matches?

[Brael]

Is there any video left from the tournament with some nic fit matches?

Arianrhod is on camera for round 3 against ANT.

[Lueseto]

But where do I find it? is it on Twitch? on what stream?

[Brael]

But where do I find it? is it on Twitch? on what stream?

https://go.twitch.tv/videos/184035695

[jbone2016]

What Variant was the other Deck then?Junk value splashing blue

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[Memories of the Time]

@ nyx fit : I've ditched evo leap (too much variation) and am currently testing 4 green sun 2 mirri's guile 1 scroll rack. As I play more creatures, green sun is back to its old self.

Too much Variation? In my experience, leap is a card that can glue the deck togheter by itself. It's incredible in this way

[ObligatoryReference]

Too much Variation? In my experience, leap is a card that can glue the deck togheter by itself. It's incredible in this way

Yeah, I'll admit I only have a few dozen games with Nyx Fit, but Leap definitely seems like a huge part of the deck. When you're only playing a few creatures, you're almost always going to hit either your combo piece (Rector) or something that can immediately pay for itself (VetExp). GSZ is great for tutoring up your first Vet or finding an Eternal Witness to get back something, but Leap lets you chain together the turn that wins you the game.

[Plm]

@ evo leap

When I says too much variation, I mean that it goes from overpowered monstrosity to a 2 mana do nothing slow as hell piece of shit. (okay I might be exaggerating a bit but you get the picture )
And also it forces us too go all in on the rector plan. I might try with some intents instead (swapping re-usability for more tutoring choices and more freedom in deck construction ) alas my binders are in boxes so I have to wait until I move in my new flat.

As of now I'm happier with a regular nic fit with a green sun package and a small rector package, the deck is a bit worse as a combo deck but the B plan is much better.

[Echelon]

@Plm: Even though I love Rhino Fit, you're probably best off w/ Brael's Bob Fit. It's probably the best Junk list around, by a mile.

Also, 2 Nic Fit lists in T16? Cool! Placing 12.5% of T16 out of a 1.13% cut of the total meta is pretty damn good.

And that Junk list w/ the U splash - WTF, lol.

[Memories of the Time]

@ evo leap

When I says too much variation, I mean that it goes from overpowered monstrosity to a 2 mana do nothing slow as hell piece of shit. (okay I might be exaggerating a bit but you get the picture )
And also it forces us too go all in on the rector plan. I might try with some intents instead (swapping re-usability for more tutoring choices and more freedom in deck construction ) alas my binders are in boxes so I have to wait until I move in my new flat.

As of now I'm happier with a regular nic fit with a green sun package and a small rector package, the deck is a bit worse as a combo deck but the B plan is much better.

For me, the main point is... you don't need a b Plan. If you are worried about Surgical, all you need is more Ground Seal (a very good card anyway, probably i'll try it maindeck) to protect yourself.

[square_two]

For me, the main point is... you don't need a b Plan. If you are worried about Surgical, all you need is more Ground Seal (a very good card anyway, probably i'll try it maindeck) to protect yourself.

Would mainly agree here, definitely for game 1 at least. Deck has ~24 ways of getting a creature on-board to sac (though that drops to ~16 if you've run out arbor already) and doesn't take long to pull off a trigger after that.

@Plm - I've considered combat walkers instead of lingering souls. Anything that produces a token can set off Evo Leap while also being able to take over a game by itself - think Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. Less premium options in little Elspeth and Garruk Relentless. To me that could form a stronger plan B while keeping a smaller Evo Leap package (maybe go to 2 leaps?). What I didn't like about that plan was that it replaces a bunch of 3cmc cards with 4cmc which feels like it'd make the deck clunkier and less able to stabilize. Maybe some other things could be tweaked, like taking out Curse of Death's Hold / Cruel Reality. Splendor + combat walkers beats fair decks, Dovescape beats unfair ones.

With Arianrhod's success with Scapeshift, we might be getting ousted as the nic fit combo deck of choice. Watching him very easily flex between midrange beatdown and sudden combo victories (requiring only 1 card at that) was impressive and I plan to practice his list for a bit.

[DrRuler]

I've been testing the Scapeshift list from EW. I'm liking the results but I've got one major issue, Lands. I have had a horrid matchup against RG Lands and Turbo Depths in my practice matches. I'm either doing something wrong or missing some answers in the list. How are people beating Lands/Turbo Depths with this list? Are people just hoping to dodge it's good hands or am I just bad at the match-up?

[Ralf]

I've been testing the Scapeshift list from EW. I'm liking the results but I've got one major issue, Lands. I have had a horrid matchup against RG Lands and Turbo Depths in my practice matches. I'm either doing something wrong or missing some answers in the list. How are people beating Lands/Turbo Depths with this list? Are people just hoping to dodge it's good hands or am I just bad at the match-up?

Turns out, it was basically a race.
Last time I faced Lands with Scape was in 2013. I won G1 and G2 after taking a Marit Lage hit but at that time we were playing 2 Sakura 2 Wood Elves and 2 Huntmasters.
Each time, I was able to go to 21 with a GSZ on Hunt and took a marit lage's hit followed by a scapekill the turn after.

Nowadays, I cannot tell...

Anyway, congratz Arian.
I'm glad you switch to 10 mountains instead of 11 and 2 TS MD to complement 3 CT.
I've always been a fan of 1 CT in the side for wish's purposes.
I'm still not a fan of some of your creatures' choices (mainly Dinos) but that's me and time will tell.

/clap. Impressive results.

[MrIggins]

I've been testing the Scapeshift list from EW. I'm liking the results but I've got one major issue, Lands. I have had a horrid matchup against RG Lands and Turbo Depths in my practice matches. I'm either doing something wrong or missing some answers in the list. How are people beating Lands/Turbo Depths with this list? Are people just hoping to dodge it's good hands or am I just bad at the match-up?

It's not good and comes to a race. You need to go full on combo plan. I board in extraction effects for crop rotation because rotation->chasm beats your scapeshift. Carnage Tyrant and Prime Time should be the only big bombs left if you need to leave in bombs (Tracker is fine though) because they pressure through Maze, but your plan A is Scapeshift.

[Brael]

@Plm: Even though I love Rhino Fit, you're probably best off w/ Brael's Bob Fit. It's probably the best Junk list around, by a mile.

Also, 2 Nic Fit lists in T16? Cool! Placing 12.5% of T16 out of a 1.13% cut of the total meta is pretty damn good.

And that Junk list w/ the U splash - WTF, lol.

2 in the T16 is impressive. I think I might try the Jund build I posted a couple posts up. Just need to convince myself to buy Recruiters.

[Ralf]

The Junk list is really high on steroids...

Ahahahah THAT curve !

[Brael]

The Junk list is really high on steroids...

Ahahahah THAT curve !

I'm pretty comfortable saying that Junk list just got lucky. It's very low on interaction/removal. It likely hit a bunch of blue decks.

[sdematt]

The Junk list is really high on steroids...

Ahahahah THAT curve !

Where are the Top 16 lists? Link plz :)

[Echelon]

The Junk list is really high on steroids...

Ahahahah THAT curve !

Can you call 2 lumps a curve? I call it a camel.


I'm pretty comfortable saying that Junk list just got lucky. It's very low on interaction/removal. It likely hit a bunch of blue decks.

Bingo.


Where are the Top 16 lists? Link plz :)

Go back a page man :laugh:

[Brael]

Where are the Top 16 lists? Link plz :)

The T16 Nic Fit lists are back a page or two. 9-16 in general haven't been posted yet (that I've seen).

[Ulysse95]

Very tempted to include Gavony Township if I go up to 4 souls again, I still recall a posted list on here with that predator 3 drop enchantment that puts counters on attackers 😛

Yes, that was mine ;)
For instance I will try a list with souls and curse of predation, but without veteran...

[Plm]

For me, the main point is... you don't need a b Plan.



With Arianrhod's success with Scapeshift,[...] Watching him very easily flex between midrange beatdown and sudden combo victories (requiring only 1 card at that) was impressive and I plan to practice his list for a bit.

I think we need a plan B, if only because our A plan is a midrange combo that doesn't win the game instantly :frown:.

It is not surgical that I fear, it's that horrible leyline (yes they started using that against me and that suck hardcore) but DRS is also a problem.
During my testing I often found leap too slow (no effect before turn 3) and while when you get going you usually win the turn after, it sometimes start not fast enough for the format. So I'm starting to think that going all in on rector might be wrong and that it's good to have "being a nic fit deck" as a plan B. Also it saddens me too much to see green sun with so few targets.

@ incoming tournament : I'm scrapping a bob fit list togther, I'll post what I salvaged from my "mess box".

[Littlesamsonite]

I'm pretty comfortable saying that Junk list just got lucky. It's very low on interaction/removal. It likely hit a bunch of blue decks.

There were a number of blue decks, they were kinda the meta...

R1- Czech pile 2-0 win
R2- Grixis delver 2-0 win
R3- Red Stax? 2-0 win
R4- Infect 2-0 win
R5- Grixis delver 2-1 win
R6- Show and tell 2-0 win
R7- Grixis delver 1-2 Loss
R8- Carnage Tyrant battle "as seen on reddit" 0-2 Loss
R9- Ad Nauseam 2-0 win
R10- Punishing Maverick 2-1 win
R11- Turbo depths 2-1 win

Overall I have been really happy with the deck, I wish the flusterstorm was an invasive surgery but I was too lazy to find one Saturday morning when I was sleeving up

[Echelon]

There were a number of blue decks, they were kinda the meta...

R1- Czech pile 2-0 win
R2- Grixis delver 2-0 win
R3- Red Stax? 2-0 win
R4- Infect 2-0 win
R5- Grixis delver 2-1 win
R6- Show and tell 2-0 win
R7- Grixis delver 1-2 Loss
R8- Carnage Tyrant battle "as seen on reddit" 0-2 Loss
R9- Ad Nauseam 2-0 win
R10- Punishing Maverick 2-1 win
R11- Turbo depths 2-1 win

Overall I have been really happy with the deck, I wish the flusterstorm was an invasive surgery but I was too lazy to find one Saturday morning when I was sleeving up

Could you expand on your sideboarding for each round?

[Memories of the Time]

I think we need a plan B, if only because our A plan is a midrange combo that doesn't win the game instantly :frown:.

It is not surgical that I fear, it's that horrible leyline (yes they started using that against me and that suck hardcore) but DRS is also a problem.
During my testing I often found leap too slow (no effect before turn 3) and while when you get going you usually win the turn after, it sometimes start not fast enough for the format. So I'm starting to think that going all in on rector might be wrong and that it's good to have "being a nic fit deck" as a plan B. Also it saddens me too much to see green sun with so few targets.

Yes, it's sad to have so few targets. Yes, it doesn't matter.
Leyline is much easier to deal with than Surgical, imho. You have deed, for example.
Leap gives redundancy at Nyx Fit, in an incredible way: you have to ramp and set up in the first 2-3 turns, then you either play rector and wins or play leap, reach a rector and wins

[Plm]

Leyline is tough because while I'm trying to reach 4 mana without explorer to activate deed (If i'm lucky to have the deed ), my opponents have the dirty habit to play magic instead of kindly wait for me :rolleyes:

Seriously, the first rector trigger doesn't win the game and I found myself dying "when I would have won the next turn" and it feels bad.
But I must say that when evo leap gets going it is so good.
In summary when things go well, evo leap is the best, but when things go sour, they go really sour, like pringle's sour & onions.

Maybe if we find a token producer cheaper than souls... or a way to accelerate our mana which does not get in the way of the leap.


Anyway that's problems for later.

the list I managed to build with what available to me is not that satisfying (and to my shame my playmate don't have the pieces for nic fit to lend me, the cantrip cartel no problem but nic fit, not a card :cry:)

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Dark Confidant
2 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Chameleon Colossus

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Path to Exile
3 Crop Rotation
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Karakas
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
3 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
2 Swamp

SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Deathrite Shaman
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict

Suggestions welcome but my card pool is limited.

[Brael]

the list I managed to build with what available to me is not that satisfying (and to my shame my playmate don't have the pieces for nic fit to lend me, the cantrip cartel no problem but nic fit, not a card :cry:)


Assuming you mean the Bob list you posted. What about it isn't satisfying?

[Kobra_D]

Congratulations to the 2 Nic Fiters making T16 at EW. With 2 different variants no less, I'm glad to see Nic Fit represent well in a room full of delvers like we're supposed to.

As for the Gitrog, I got some testing in over the weekend and never had it come up when it mattered. In 8 matches I saw it in 2 games, 1 game I was ported off of anything more than a 3 drop and the other it ran smoothly but didn't really need to be there.

It does cripple your mana development but that can be mitigated. If the rest of the deck is low to the ground, it's trading cards for mana. Playing mostly instant speed value cards at the cmc 1&2 drop helps us close out.

That being said, even if we look at our land count as a resource like necropotence looks at life (this is at the bare minimum a stretch), I never had the Gitrog turn a corner. If we're winning we're winning and if we're losing it doesn't really help stabilize.

Same with Excavator. It came up more frequently but without a build around land package it's not worthwhile imo. Maverick style decks could utilize it but I wasn't really going for that.

Too bad, I guess I'll put this toad back in the box until wizards prints something else that might work with it.

For the last Wednesday in NicFitober it looks like I will be playing Xanthrid Necromancer humans. The list is a lot like Brael's GB SE list, with some better cards swapped out for the necromancer. It won't be as good but hopefully I get some zombies on the board for the Halloween feel.

[Lueseto]

A question, mainly to @Arianrhod:

During the last year there has been kind of a consensus here (and I think you said it yourself) that Sneak Fit was the better of the two Jund combo-ish variants (the other being ScapeWish). Why did you opt for the latter for Eternal Weekend? Do you feel that the two dinosaurs significantly help the deck? I assume they can't be played in Sneak Fit because it already has plenty of expensive creatures that can't be cut.

Or did you just feel that the meta was weaker to ScapeWish than to Sneak Fit, and if that is the case, what was your reasoning?

I've always liked the Burning Wishes as they are such a versatile card, but without having tested Sneak Fit I was lead to believe it just had more raw power and speed.

[Littlesamsonite]

Could you expand on your sideboarding for each round?

Czech Pile
In - To the slaughter, Deed, Nissa, Golgari Charm
Out - Teeg, Dragonlord Dromoka, Titania, crop rotation
To the slaughter is a 2-for-1 almost every time it's cast. Deed and charm mostly stopped them from hiding behind strix.

Grixis Delver
In - Deed, charm, Engineered Plague
Out - Teeg, Titania, crop rotation
Taking out low impact cards for cards that stop them from going wide.

Red Stax
In - Lost Legacy, To the Slaughter, Deed, reclamation sage, Krosan grip
Out - Kitchen finks, toxic deluge, 2x fatal push, Teeg
All I needed to do was keep his ensnaring bridges off the table. I had a 13-for-1 Deed that felt great.

Infect
In - To the slaughter, Deed, charm, thoughtseize, plague, krosan grip
Out - Thragtusk, Nissa, Meren, finks, Chameleon Colossus, Teeg
Just -1/-1 effects and ways to deal with Inkmoth mostly. Krosan grip was awesome for dealing with Inkmoth

Sneak and Show
In - Lost legacy, To the Slaughter, flusterstorm, charm, thoughtseize, krosan grip, mindbreak trap, reclamation sage
Out - Chameleon Colossus, thragtusk, deed, 2x fatal push, 2x abrupt decay, toxic deluge
Experience with cabal therapy and Teeg make this matchup fine. Karakas and ways to get a early sneak attack off the field are helpful if we get behind

DinoFit
I was completely unprepared and honestly it seems like a nightmare of a quasi mirror. I don't know what I brought in. I was just really excited to have a NicFit mirror in the 7-1 bracket!

ANT
In - 4x Leyline of the void, lost legacy, mindbreak trap, flusterstorm, thoughtseize
Out - 2x Fatal Push, toxic deluge, carnage tyrant, 2x abrupt decay, Titania, Nissa
Teeg, hand disruption, graveyard hate. If they don't go off turn 1 the game becomes heavily in our favor. Game 1 they just immediately scoop to Teeg.

Punishing Maverick
In - 4x Leyline, deed, plague
Out - Voice of resurgence, Chameleon Colossus, Dragonlord Dromoka, crop rotation, Teeg, Kitchen Finks
They're just a bad fair deck if you Leyline them, we crush fair decks. Almost all their relevant creatures are human so Engineered Plague is surprisingly good here

Lands
In - 4x Leyline, to the slaughter
Out - 2x Fatal Push, toxic deluge, 2x Abrupt decay
Crop Rotation/Titania w/ Wasteland/Karakas shine here. They have very few action spells so therapy is nice. Fun fact, Chameleon Colossus walks right past Marit Lage.

[Plm]

Assuming you mean the Bob list you posted. What about it isn't satisfying?

Yes that's the list.

Had I access to all my cards, I would have 2 tracker 1 witness instead of the opposite, and 1 or 2 brutality main instead of other removal. Also not sur about chameleon as my top end (but it is so good VS Czech pile and grixis).

Anyway I find it so frustrating to have to build without access to my binders, but that's what you get for marrying :tongue: (that and two beautiful daughters)

[TLK]

DinoFit?!?! Is that a thing?!?

[Memories of the Time]

Seriously, the first rector trigger doesn't win the game and I found myself dying "when I would have won the next turn" and it feels bad.

That's the point. I've done a hundred of games at least (way more, probably) with Nyx Fit, and i've never lost a game after a resolved rector trigger with the last cards (Splendor, Sandwurm).

[Kobra_D]

So, over the last month and a half I've played several variants (lower tier/ newer) Nic Fit brews.

A short synopsis of my opinion on the various builds.

_________
GB
GB Humans, this deck was missing a strong top end. Xanthrid Necromancer is bad (expecting this going in) and it took the spot of something big to close the game with. Meren was surprisingly good, and Bob is confirmed amazing (I did not expect it to pull as much weight as it did). I did regret not trying the new pirate from ixalan that's a human but I already had enough non-G creatures in the deck.

GB Gitrog, the engine itself ran correctly when I had it, but it was never necessary and could just as easily be more disruption/something lower to the ground.

On the GB decks themselves, I think they are reasonable to play. The sideboard options seemed a little light but the cleaner mana base allows for a lot of maindeck disruption.
_________
Temur
Honestly, the deck was super fun. It also did not feel terrible and had a lot of lines to it that could result in a win or loss. But playing without black is still wrong. Cabal therapy alone is worth the color, not to mention lands like phyrexian tower being more relevant.
_________
BUG/4C BUGr Superfriends
BUG Superfriends felt reasonable. The top end is a little weird since you cannot GSZ for walkers, but they will close out a game nicely. 4C is too greedy of a mana base, at least in the configuration that I brought to locals.

Oath of Nissa is nice, but easily a card I want to cut in this archetype for the moment.
_________
Birthing Pod
Honestly, as much as I wanted pod to be good it is still far too slow and lackluster to do anything relevant. Maybe again one day, but the time for this seems to still be behind us
_________
BUG/ BUG Delirium
The real difference between the two for the lists I played were Emrakul the promised end. I included a bitterblossom for delirium but otherwise this was the typical Leovold deck. Emrakul the promised end did not seem like a necessity, and bitterblossom was not good everywhere (felt like it should be a sideboard card).

BUG by itself is fine but didn't seem to be any stronger than the other common Nic Fit Builds.
_________
Punishing Jund
The deck is fun, but a bit slow, definitely not something I would bring to a bigger event.
_________
Valakut Dinosaurs
I think I am playing the deck wrong, I got 1 valakut kill, and otherwise always jammed with dinosaurs. The deck feels good. Provides more than just the previous Jund variant did. I definitely will be playing this again.
_________
Rhino Junk Fit
This is my baby, nothing gets better than this. It may also be that I've had a lot of familiarity with this particular deck and my list, but Rhinos are still amazing. Fatal push is still a little annoying but I've moved Thrun back into my 75 as a result.
_________


So, the best is imo is either going to be Rhino's or Leovold. But I am cautiously excited to see how Jund Dino Scapewish does in the future.

Thanks everyone who helped me out with ideas, provided sweet decklists to work off of and provided feedback on the sub-optimal choices I made on cards.

[sdematt]

Congrats to the gentlemen on here who placed. Great job!

Off topic brewing of old, old spice - regular Jund Fire Nic Fit.

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Noble Hierarch
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Carnage Tyrant
1 Regisaur Alpha
14

3 Punishing Fire
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Diabolic Intent
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana the Last Hope/Collective Brutality
2 Kolaghan's Command
11

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Night's Whisper
2 Sylvan Library
14

22 Lands
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Taiga
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Phyrexian Tower

----------------------------

2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Boil
2 Tsabo's Web
2 Pyroclasm
2 Null Rod
2 Compost
1 Lost Legacy
2 Pyroblast


I wanted to build a deck that obviously just took its' time ;)

Noble seems weird, but I've really been loving her for exalted and the bit of extra mana. I'm sure 4 DRS could also be fine, but it's obviously how you would have won that Carnage Tyrant stand off.

Packing Recurring Nightmare because you have infinite ways to deal with Shaman, and since your Tyrant is never getting Plowed, he's likely dying in combat (lol) or getting Edicted. Bring em back. Or, loop Thragtusks or Regisaurs. If I'm already playing Intent to tutor for Fires/Grove, why not a Nightmare?

Board - Null Rod is the concession to hating Lands and DnT sometimes locking you out, also some double duty against Combo. Compost is nice when 6/8 Top 8 of EW are black splashed; gives you some comeback on Hymns and the ilk. I guess one could play Carpet. Whatever, would rather draw cards and try it out.

Just funning around with the minutes I have to spare.

[Echelon]

Just funning around with the minutes I have to spare.

Making the most out of your poops! :laugh:

Or... Making sure your poops count!

@Littlesamsonite: What I'm most curious about - why the Voice of Resurgences and Kitchen Finks? Both of those feel very misplaced. And why no Path to Exiles? I mean, if there is a reason to run white it's that.

[Dalton!]

DinoFit?!?! Is that a thing?!?
I think it is.
I am playing 2 Ripjaw, 2-3 regisaur and 2 carnage.
The rest is Classic non p-fire jund. Works fine i think. Hopefully we get a better 4cmc Dino next time. The raptor is cool and eyerything but sometimes he just gets a sword and leaves nothing.
If i could make it work i would go for 4 regisaur, but with vital forces and Thragtusk the 5 CMC slots are so tight.

[Navsi]

So, over the last month and a half I've played several variants (lower tier/ newer) Nic Fit brews.
So, the best is imo is either going to be Rhino's or Leovold. But I am cautiously excited to see how Jund Dino Scapewish does in the future.

Thanks everyone who helped me out with ideas, provided sweet decklists to work off of and provided feedback on the sub-optimal choices I made on cards.

Have you tried the Fierce Empath / Elder Deep-Fiend BUG build? I've found it very solid, since it helps with the BUG list's usual issues of finishing the game and somewhat helps with the colours' lack of removal also. Also lets you run Emrakul PE as a control game ender out of the sideboard, and lets you find finishers reliably without having to run Traverse (which makes your early vet triggers horribly unreliable).

[Littlesamsonite]

Making the most out of your poops! :laugh:

Or... Making sure your poops count!

@Littlesamsonite: What I'm most curious about - why the Voice of Resurgences and Kitchen Finks? Both of those feel very misplaced. And why no Path to Exiles? I mean, if there is a reason to run white it's that.

You're right about the Kitchen Finks it almost definitely should be a Tireless Tracker or another removal spell (probably Pernicious Deed), honestly I just couldn't find my tracker and I was too grumpy about it to buy a new one. Voice of Resurgence is sneaky good, making everyone play their removal at sorcery speed and punishing their counters has been strong. I went back and forth on path over push and despite the fact that I still believe path is good in RhinoFit decks I felt Fatal Push was better right now. Push is just cleaner especially when I want to deal with a turn 1 Deathrite or Delver, I don't want to ramp them into a turn 2 Leovold/TNN/Liliana/Knight/Crusader if I'm not ramping myself into my own big green monsters :smile:

[Echelon]

Most decks where you want to deal with a T1 DRS/Delver don't run any basics though, so what's the problem? Elves is a bad MU anyways & Maverick you'll still waltz right over. Especially if you also plan to pop Explorers.

[Arianrhod]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32078-10th-at-Eternal-Weekend-with-Dino-Scapewish&p=1028082#post1028082

Report is up.

Going to do a postmortem on my decklist and cover some brief sideboarding things quickly.

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Regisaur Alpha
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Carnage Tyrant

3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Burning Wish
2 Scapeshift

2 Abrupt Decay

2 Nissa, Vital Force

2 Sylvan Library
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Badlands
4 Taiga
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills

sb::
1 Scapeshift
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Pyroclasm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Innocent Blood
1 Lost Legacy
2 Slaughter Games
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pulse of Murasa

2 Steve: This deck is a bit top-heavy in both fair and combo plans, so you really want some extra acceleration alongside the Vets. Steve plays very nicely with Tracker, as well -- he puts you into Tracker + clue quicker, or represents a block and a clue if drawn later.

Nissa, VWS: Your goal is to get to 7 lands quickly anyway, so her condition for flipping is already met. She's super easy to flip -- basically any time you want to Zenith for her, you're probably flipping her. She also flips in response to removal by way of fetchlands, which a cool trick. Once she flips, her card draw and her token protector are both relevant, as well. She has continued to be very good for me.

2 Tracker: Tracker is fine here due to the large land count (24) and amount of ramp spells -- again, turning a lategame Steve into a cantrip is perfectly fine. He also lets you draw a bunch of cards off a Scapeshift if you can't kill them with it for some reason (leyline of sanctity or whatever). He also grows to tangle with Gurmags quickly, and pressures combo while drawing into more disruption.

Regis: Regis & Kelly successfully killed a couple planeswalkers on the day, although I never played against something like Czech pile, which is where the card shines in particular. Good value guy, good aggression, and threatens a nasty turn with Carnage Tyrant if Regis sticks around.

Carnage: He's the biggest, dumbest idiot and sometimes you need a big, dumb idiot. He beats everything except the largest Goyfs (and Goyf is super out of favor atm). Like I said in my interview (https://go.twitch.tv/videos/183919079 at 3:31), the best thing most decks currently can hope to do to him is throw a Strix in the way, in which they're still taking 6 on the block. Hexproof is important, as is trample. Uncounterable matters less, but does come up sometimes.

Primeval Titan: A plan unto himself, plays well with both Valakut and also with the "lands as cards" theme of Tracker and Vital Force. He's not always relevant, and he does get boarded out a lot, but he's an insane bomb when you need him.

Discard suite: This became industry standard towards the end of Scape's previous life cycle, and seemed fine on the weekend as well. Sometimes I boarded out the Thoughtseizes to improve my topdeck quality, but they were nice to have in the maindeck to get more information or have slightly more protection against combo or control.

2 Decay: I do kind of still wish I had room for another removal spell or two maindeck, but the deck honestly feels pretty tight at this point. Decay was definitely the right call -- Chalice of the Void is on the upswing, and while we don't typically need to kill Chalice all the time, sometimes it does matter if our hand is choked on 1s vs Eldrazi or some such. I also blew up a random Trinisphere from the Cloudpost deck, and being uncounterable is great vs Delver, as we all know.

2 Vital Force: This card is bananas in the metagame right now in general and Scape, in particular, uses it very well. Every mode on this card is important, and knowing when to off her for her emblem is challenging but rewarding when you get it right. Don't forget that if you have her Emblem and you play a Fetchland, you can hold priority in response to the Emblem trigger and fetch, which will result in you drawing 2 cards after your fetch resolves.

Manabase: felt about as stable as it ever does in this deck. Sometimes you run into awkward draws, especially against an opponent who is determined to screw with your manabase, but in general it's pretty robust and holds up to even a pair of Wastelands pretty well. Again, don't forget to priority fetching for basics unless you know the coast is clear. The deck runs off a basic Forest pretty well -- that basic Forest is your first goal, and then from there you can spread outward.

Wishboard: Everything felt pretty solid. I still hate the Innocent Blood, but I know that as soon as I take it out, I'm going to have to deal with a bunch of Show and Tell nonsense. I still wish there was a 1B -2/-2 pyroclasm variant :(

Sideboard: Everything was good here, too. The Pulse of Murasa could potentially be a 3rd Surgical, but I liked having the Pulse -- it performed well for me a couple times on the day when I needed it to.

Brief sideboarding notes:

Vs Grixis/RUG Delver:

-2 Nissa Vital
-1 Primeval Titan
-1 Regisaur

+1 Pyroclasm
+1 Pulse of Murasa
+2 Lightning Bolt

Pretty standard. You kinda want both Pyroclasms in postboard against Grixis if they're high on Pyromancers, but that means you need to cut an additional card, which is tough. Vastwood Seer is /probably/ the 5th cut if need be, but you're going to definitely have times where you miss it.

Vs Czech:

-1 Pernicious Deed
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Green Sun's Zenith
-1 Veteran Explorer

+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Lightning Bolt
+1 Pulse of Murasa

This matchup is mostly about making your draws better because this game is going to go long. Surgical comes in to "counter" Snapcasters at important junctions, and you take out a Zenith in order to Wish for one. Czech frequently has some amount of Invasive Surgery, so being able to protect a Zenith from that is also important -- aside from just increasing your bomb density (4 Zeniths to functionally 7). If you don't want to cut a Vet, you can cut a Steve or a Bayou or a Forest or something instead. You just need to cut /a/ mana source, it doesn't matter too much which one it is.

Vs Storm:

-1 Carnage
-1 Primeval
-1 Regis
-2 Nissa Vital

+2 Slaughter Games
+1 Cabal Therapy
+2 Surgical Extraction

You're trying to lean down your deck. Vital Force is actually decent against storm, but you need cheaper cards. Discard and Surgicals go after their support cards -- either mana or gas -- while Slaughter Games or BW->Lost Legacy goes after their actual win conditions; tendrils first, since forcing them on to Empty is actively good for us, and then Empty for the final blow.

Decay stays in because storm pilots will frequently try to park an LED or a Petal in play in order to protect it from our discard, and then we can nuke it from orbit. Deed has the same role, but also protects us from Empty to some degree.

--------

Hopefully that gives you some idea or insight into what I do -- should be able to extrapolate from that. Generally speaking you're looking to bring in like 3-5 cards and adjust your maindeck to the speed you need it to be as well as adjusting the plans that you have available to you.

[ObligatoryReference]

Great write-up, and congrats on the finish!

[Purple Blood]

Sweet write up dude! Watching the video...the arrogance of the announcer on the right (Buehler I believe) really rubbed me the wrong way.

[ObligatoryReference]

Sweet write up dude! Watching the video...the arrogance of the announcer on the right (Buehler I believe) really rubbed me the wrong way.

Yeah, I usually like Randy Buehler, but his attitude really rubbed me the wrong way. Kinda strange coming from such an experienced Vintage/Legacy player.

[TLK]

Sigh, I guess I have to finally sleeve up Nic Fit.

[Echelon]

Just saw the interview. It was very enjoyable, you did a great job explaining what Nic Fit is/does. Mark Hornung seemed to have quite the man crush going on, haha. For those interested, it starts 3 hours & 31 minutes in (rather than @3:31).


Sweet write up dude! Watching the video...the arrogance of the announcer on the right (Buehler I believe) really rubbed me the wrong way.

Yeah, I usually like Randy Buehler, but his attitude really rubbed me the wrong way. Kinda strange coming from such an experienced Vintage/Legacy player.

That's what you get for playing this deck. Makes it all the more fun when you blow people out of the water.

[Ralf]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32078-10th-at-Eternal-Weekend-with-Dino-Scapewish&p=1028082#post1028082

Report is up.

Brief sideboarding notes:

Vs Grixis/RUG Delver:

-2 Nissa Vital
-1 Primeval Titan
-1 Regisaur

+1 Pyroclasm
+1 Pulse of Murasa
+2 Lightning Bolt

Pretty standard. You kinda want both Pyroclasms in postboard against Grixis if they're high on Pyromancers, but that means you need to cut an additional card, which is tough. Vastwood Seer is /probably/ the 5th cut if need be, but you're going to definitely have times where you miss it.

Vs Czech:

-1 Pernicious Deed
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Green Sun's Zenith
-1 Veteran Explorer

+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Lightning Bolt
+1 Pulse of Murasa

This matchup is mostly about making your draws better because this game is going to go long. Surgical comes in to "counter" Snapcasters at important junctions, and you take out a Zenith in order to Wish for one. Czech frequently has some amount of Invasive Surgery, so being able to protect a Zenith from that is also important -- aside from just increasing your bomb density (4 Zeniths to functionally 7). If you don't want to cut a Vet, you can cut a Steve or a Bayou or a Forest or something instead. You just need to cut /a/ mana source, it doesn't matter too much which one it is.

Vs Storm:

-1 Carnage
-1 Primeval
-1 Regis
-2 Nissa Vital

+2 Slaughter Games
+1 Cabal Therapy
+2 Surgical Extraction

You're trying to lean down your deck. Vital Force is actually decent against storm, but you need cheaper cards. Discard and Surgicals go after their support cards -- either mana or gas -- while Slaughter Games or BW->Lost Legacy goes after their actual win conditions; tendrils first, since forcing them on to Empty is actively good for us, and then Empty for the final blow.

Decay stays in because storm pilots will frequently try to park an LED or a Petal in play in order to protect it from our discard, and then we can nuke it from orbit. Deed has the same role, but also protects us from Empty to some degree.

--------


Hello Arian,

Again, congrats for you run.

I've just seen your R3 vs Storm. Wow that G3 is a very very loose keep if you ask me. 5 lands / 1 BW / 1 CT.
But whatever, as long as you won the match !


1) Here are a few comments about your sideboard plans:


Vs Grixis/RUG Delver:

-2 Nissa Vital
-1 Primeval Titan
-1 Regisaur

+1 Pyroclasm
+1 Pulse of Murasa
+2 Lightning Bolt

-> I would definitively reduce/cut the Scape/BW package, here. I believe we don't need to go for a quick kill that is somewhat not always easy to assemble against Tempo decks.
That would help fitting the Toxic Deluge+PoM+IB.
Tempo's MU tend to be all about board states and I like having a lot of removal spells to throw at them because they don't have a lot of creatures anyway. And once their hand is depleted, you should win the topdeck war.
I know that BW grants between 0 to 4 more virtual removal/sweeper but I hate having to pay 2+the chosen card CMC which very bad tempo wise.
The only card that should stay in the side is 1 pyroclasm, in my opinion, because the worst ever game 3 is the double delver hand where there is only one line of play that might save your ass...
BW stays in the deck (between 2 or 3) so if you have a window to shut the door (scape), you can still do it !

I might be wrong, though.

By the way, I think we should try Bontu's Last reckoning instead of Toxic Deluge to assess whether the lifepoint liability is worse or better than the double black mana cost + the "doesn't untap" clause. I know we don't usually pay much life for Toxic and the answer may be pretty obvious here but still, the idea has some merit because Bontu is easier on us while facing Tempo and huge demons.

I pretty much agree with everything else.


2) Questions:

I know you already answered quite a few before the speaker but:
- After some days (and more reflexion), would you change anything in the list and why ?
- Could you share your sideboard plan for Dnt ?
- After looking @ the standings, I think I would have drew the 9th round with your friend (but that is a very personal thing)

Thank you.

Ralf

[Brael]

Report is up.

Going to do a postmortem on my decklist and cover some brief sideboarding things quickly.


Grats on the finish. Any thoughts on the route I was thinking of taking Scapeshift? Would it potentially be viable?

[tilzinger]

As someone who plays Scapeshift in modern and owns most of this deck except for 4 Badlands and 3 Taigas (which is a lot), I really want to play this deck.

edit: I'm tempted to buy a Badlands and the Burning Wishes and just play with 3 Blood Crypts and 3 Stomping Grounds ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Bobmans]

Gratz to Kevin and Littlesamsonite.

So has the Sneak version fallen out of favor that much? Is it still a thing people are doing?

[Echelon]

Gratz to Kevin and Littlesamsonite.

So has the Sneak version fallen out of favor that much? Is it still a thing people are doing?

I don't think it is. Jund did get some nice new toys w/ Ixalan though.

[Bobmans]

I don't think it is. Jund did get some nice new toys w/ Ixalan though.What does your Sneak list look like?

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk

[Echelon]

What does your Sneak list look like?

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk

Imaginary, mostly. Don't have one :laugh:.

[Navsi]

Gratz to Kevin and Littlesamsonite.

So has the Sneak version fallen out of favor that much? Is it still a thing people are doing?

Sneak doesn't really want to be playing any of the dinosaurs so it hasn't really gained anything from the new releases. I imagine it's still fine, but if the new dinosaurs make Scapeshift's fair gameplan viable again then why would you play the 'A+B' combo deck with a fair backup plan when you could play the 'A' one card combo with a fair backup plan?

[pettdan]

So has the Sneak version fallen out of favor that much? Is it still a thing people are doing?


Sneak doesn't really want to be playing any of the dinosaurs so it hasn't really gained anything from the new releases. I imagine it's still fine, but if the new dinosaurs make Scapeshift's fair gameplan viable again then why would you play the 'A+B' combo deck with a fair backup plan when you could play the 'A' one card combo with a fair backup plan?

Be warned, this is just my theorycrafting. I stopped playing Sneak/-y Fit when top was banned because even with top you could still have trouble putting everything together and without it I assumed there would be some more trouble, so I tried some other versions with either more tutoring and card draw (Crop Rotation and 4 Trackers) or the blue cantrip shell. Arianrhod mentioned here how he was having trouble making it work post top-ban, if I remember correctly. And I don't think I've seen anyone else posting about successful results with that version. I'm thinking the reason why Scapeshift is ok to play without tops is the Burning Wish-package, it's an extra tutor package that help you draw what you need when you need it: extra discard, sweepers, combo interaction or win condition. And it needed the creatures to have a relevant game aside from the Burning Wishes and Scapeshift, so [edit: but] the creatures probably aren't what's making the archetype relevant again, rather it's the slow meta making Scapeshift a good win condition and the consistency gained by using the Burning Wishes which is needed now that top is gone.

[MrIggins]

I moved off Sneak for mostly the reasons you mentioned, adding that drawing the second Sneak when you need a monster or -anything- else was just the worst feeling. Scape has better topdecks on average because your "combo" is one card and Wish offers a ton of utility when you aren't able to kill them with Scapeshift. In our post-top world you need higher average card quality in your non-Brainstorm decks, which is why Scape is where I'm focusing my attention at the moment. I don't think Sneak is a bad deck, it certainly has the best nut draws available to it, but the inconsistency that was propped up by Top is now just a bit too much to overcome IMO.

[Echelon]

You could always run Mirri's Guile to shore that up...

[Yutao]

Guile being popped by deed feels real bad tho.

[square_two]

Guile being popped by deed feels real bad tho.

It'll happen sometimes.

In my Nyx List I really did enjoy having 1 Guile to go alongside the couple of Libraries. Think about the timeline of your play. Sometimes you can manage Deed on turn 3 and then blow it turn 4. Vast majority of the time, Deed will come down and blow up same turn, and that would be turns 4+. Even in a scenario where you pop Deed on turn 4 or 5, if you can manage a T1 Guile, that is still a pretty incredible range of card selection, especially if you have a fetch or two to shuffle away bad options. Especially against combo, T1 Guile often helped setup to find additional discard or the right accelerant to go alongside Vet.

Deed -should- be wiping 2+ pieces from your opponent, so even losing a card to put yourself ahead shouldn't be frowned upon. Other situations, you'll draw the Library/Guile right after deeding and will be super happy to have it push you ahead and provide better topdecks than your opp.

IMO, we lost top. Have to deal with it with Libary/Guile until something better comes along.

BUG fit I think is the only version that can really get away from either, and even then, that's due to cantrips/strix/tracker/jace/(nissa?).

[MrIggins]

I've liked Sylvan more, drawing cards is nice and we have plenty to do on turn 1, but I also don't own Guiles and haven't tried them.

[Bobmans]

I've liked Sylvan more, drawing cards is nice and we have plenty to do on turn 1, but I also don't own Guiles and haven't tried them.The benefit of Mirri's Guile is that you can shuffle away the top 3 after you peek but before you draw (fetches).
Still i prefer Sylvan Library 1 and 2 aswell before adding Mirri's Guile.
I used to play Guile as a one of in BUG Delver, pretty sweet T1 play.

So as for the Scape over Sneak question, i am currently not comfortable bringing Jund to the table. While the end game is pretty solid i still feel that Jund lacks the reach in removal and tools to fight combo in comparison to Junk. Altough i think junk lacks an alternative end game next to the "fair" plan. Thoughts?

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk

[Ralf]

So as for the Scape over Sneak question, i am currently not comfortable bringing Jund to the table. While the end game is pretty solid i still feel that Jund lacks the reach in removal and tools to fight combo in comparison to Junk. Altough i think junk lacks an alternative end game next to the "fair" plan. Thoughts?


That is very true but one could say that combo is at a "low" right now.
There are too many Delvers' decks flying around at the moment. So you can bet you won't face many or/and that you can lose 1 match and still get to top 8.

[MrIggins]

So as for the Scape over Sneak question, i am currently not comfortable bringing Jund to the table. While the end game is pretty solid i still feel that Jund lacks the reach in removal and tools to fight combo in comparison to Junk. Altough i think junk lacks an alternative end game next to the "fair" plan. Thoughts?

You lose hatebears but gain an "unfair" plan that greatly accelerates your closing speed. Junk does better against the unfair strategies as a whole, but with how fair and grindy games can be in the current format I'd rather take the build with a more powerful proactive plan and better topdecks (which I maintain is Scape).

[Amulet of the HangingLamp]

Is anyone playing Junk with Bob? I really want to make this work:

Lands (22)
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Creatures (18)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
3 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk

Noncreatures (20)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Path to Exile
2 Crop Rotation
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Collective Brutality
1 Sylvan Library
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

Sideboard (15)
1 Maze of Ith
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Pithing Needle
1 Crop Rotation
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Golgari Charm
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Nissa, Vital Force
3 Open Slots

[Bobmans]

You lose hatebears but gain an "unfair" plan that greatly accelerates your closing speed. Junk does better against the unfair strategies as a whole, but with how fair and grindy games can be in the current format I'd rather take the build with a more powerful proactive plan and better topdecks (which I maintain is Scape).So it seems to me that the Scapeshift version is sort of a metagame predator, right? I am trying to figure out what to look for choosing a list that can compete (at least on average) in any given meta.


Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk

[Echelon]

So it seems to me that the Scapeshift version is sort of a metagame predator, right? I am trying to figure out what to look for choosing a list that can compete (at least on average) in any given meta.


Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk

Nic Fit in general is a meta predator. Different versions just perform slightly better in slightly different metas.

[Bobmans]

Nic Fit in general is a meta predator. Different versions just perform slightly better in slightly different metas.I know, but i cannot accept it.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk

[Echelon]

I know, but i cannot accept it.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk

"I reject your reality and substitute my own."

[square_two]

I know, but i cannot accept it.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk

Have you tried Nyx Fit? Can attack a diverse/unknown meta simply because it has an answer for everything. Academy Rector for Dovescape, Overwhelming Splendor, or Cruel Reality/Sandwurm Convergence can give you a win against anything.

I've got a proposed list that gains a firmer midrange plan by adding 4 walkers (all token-producing to continue the Evo Leap plan), but haven't had a chance to do any testing.

[Brael]

Is anyone playing Junk with Bob? I really want to make this work:

Lands (22)
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Creatures (18)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
3 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk

Noncreatures (20)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Path to Exile
2 Crop Rotation
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Collective Brutality
1 Sylvan Library
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

Sideboard (15)
1 Maze of Ith
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Pithing Needle
1 Crop Rotation
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Golgari Charm
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Nissa, Vital Force
3 Open Slots

I've played it before. I like pairing Bob with Ranger of Eos in Junk. Ranger, especially when you have the mana to use it is a fantastic card. It's basically a draw 3 (just one card is a 3/2 body) and there's some very interesting tutor targets like Walking Ballista, Sylvan Safekeeper, and extra DRS. I think that such a build has a lot of potential. 2 Rangers is the maximum you want, but it's a real good 4 drop, much better than Rhino in my opinion. If I were going to play it right now, my MB would look similar to yours except I would drop the Thragtusk and 3 Rhinos for another land, 2 Ranger of Eos, and a Walking Ballista. I would reconsider the Meren too, because it plays poorly with Ballista.

[Bobmans]

Have you tried Nyx Fit? Can attack a diverse/unknown meta simply because it has an answer for everything. Academy Rector for Dovescape, Overwhelming Splendor, or Cruel Reality/Sandwurm Convergence can give you a win against anything.

I've got a proposed list that gains a firmer midrange plan by adding 4 walkers (all token-producing to continue the Evo Leap plan), but haven't had a chance to do any testing.I have, but not recently. Feels that its plan can be disrupted easily since it leans on Rector so heavily. So the B plan here is either more creatures for a regular fair plan or go with more combat walkers?

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk

[ObligatoryReference]

I have, but not recently. Feels that its plan can be disrupted easily since it leans on Rector so heavily. So the B plan here is either more creatures for a regular fair plan or go with more combat walkers?

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk

I've won with Lingering Souls beats :D

[Brael]

"I reject your reality and substitute my own."

I quite enjoy my reality. Every deck I make is great.

[Memories of the Time]

I have, but not recently. Feels that its plan can be disrupted easily since it leans on Rector so heavily. So the B plan here is either more creatures for a regular fair plan or go with more combat walkers?

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk

It's very hard to be disrupted, otherwise. The main problem is Surgical, beside that you have good answers against almost everything.

[Echelon]

Guile being popped by deed feels real bad tho.

Meh, if you pop it you'll need it. We're fine with DRS and token producing combat walkers, so why should Guiles' CMC be a problem all of a sudden? If you feel bad for blowing up your own shit this is not the deck for you. Just accept that it will happen every so often, end of story. Besides, it's not that Guile doesn't do shit until it's blown up. How much card selection do you want it to provide before it's OK to blow it up..? Seriously, it gives you so much advantage over your opponent so quickly that it's perfectly fine to blow it up after a shuffle or 2.


Is anyone playing Junk with Bob? I really want to make this work:

Mirri's Guile also seems like a wonderful fit for Bob Fit.

[Whitefaces]

I've been toying around with a straight GB build recently with a delirium package, it's felt solid. Emrakul is an amazing top end for fair matchups, esp when you can rebuy her with twin towers. It's almost a lock in the late game, and all are traverseable. I've liked that it's not too reliant on Explorers too and can do a good rock deck impression. With the Emrakul Grave Titan has felt unnecessary, might be better as another Tracker which has continued to be phenomenal. Grim Flayers have also been impressive. Anyone else toyed around with Traverse? Any nice creatures/lands I'm missing?

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Grim Flayer
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Minister of Pain
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Emrakul, the Promised End

2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited

2 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
1 Malstrom Pulse

3 Abrupt Decay

2 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library

2 Nihil Spellbomb

3 Bayou
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire

SB
3 Lost Legacy
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Duress
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Karakas
1 Thoughtseize
2 Choke
2 Mindbreak Trap

[Echelon]

@Whitefaces: You could try running a Courser of Kruphix. Its extra card type can be relevant for both Traverse and Emrakul.

T1 fetch, Therapy yourself and name Courser also means Delirium on T2 :laugh:.

[Whitefaces]

Good shout, great with tracker as well. Not something to really traverse for but suits the deck well, so maybe even two copies of it.

[square_two]

I have, but not recently. Feels that its plan can be disrupted easily since it leans on Rector so heavily. So the B plan here is either more creatures for a regular fair plan or go with more combat walkers?

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk

There's an option for a sideboard fatty to bring in as a GSZ target as a secondary plan in post-board games, that has already been on our agenda for awhile. Sigarda, Titania, Carnage Tyrant, take your pick. Outside of Deathrite (and the 4c decks usually don't prioritize getting green mana out early), decks don't have a game 1 way to interact with Academy Rector or the bigass enchantment she brings out. Council's Judgment is about the only way, and Dovescape usually is the go-to for control decks that use it.

This is the list I'm thinking about, spurred by some ideas from Arianrhod.

More tokens, so Intents come in. Trying out Thoughtseizes main. Could see +1 GSZ +1 Eternal Witness instead, or lose the Thoughtseizes for Collective Brutality (actually that sounds like a fine idea since going back up to 4 Souls).

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Academy Rector

2 Fatal Push
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library
2 Evolutionary Leap
4 Lingering Souls
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Diabolic Intent
2 Green Sun's Zenith

1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Dovescape
1 Overwhelming Splendor

2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion

4 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Gavony Township

sb::
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obediance
2 Choke
1 To the Slaughter
1 Fatal Push
1 Carpet of Flowers
2 Thoughtseize
2 Lost Legacy
1 Sandwurm Convergence

With a couple of Intents, Kevin had the idea of throwing in Helm post-board (alongside Leyline). If opponent's choose to side in Rest in Peace then that is also fine for that sideplan. Maybe the rest of the board could be tweaked for Intent targets or include a fatty to GSZ for (but I'd want to go back up to 3 GSZ for that).

Another list I've been tinkering around with, if it happens to stir any ideas:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Argothian Enchantress
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Courser of Kruphix
4 Riptide Chimera
1 Eidolon of Blossoms
1 Doomwake Giant
1 Carnage Tyrant

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Trial Of Ambition
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Trial of Strength
2 Sylvan Library
2 Cartouche of Ambition
2 Toxic Deluge
3 Green Sun's Zenith

22 lands

Riptide is a large 3/4 flyer, lots of value if it can stick around and bounce Trial of Ambition. Really wanted Oath of Nissa to work, since paying G every turn to look at top 3 and draw a card is crazy - but the stupid thing can't grab enchantments. Might still be fine as 1-of to grab lands/critters. Inspired by some of the last ideas in the sylvan plug thread.

[Bobmans]

There's an option for a sideboard fatty to bring in as a GSZ target as a secondary plan in post-board games, that has already been on our agenda for awhile. Sigarda, Titania, Carnage Tyrant, take your pick. Outside of Deathrite (and the 4c decks usually don't prioritize getting green mana out early), decks don't have a game 1 way to interact with Academy Rector or the bigass enchantment she brings out. Council's Judgment is about the only way, and Dovescape usually is the go-to for control decks that use it.

This is the list I'm thinking about, spurred by some ideas from Arianrhod.

More tokens, so Intents come in. Trying out Thoughtseizes main. Could see +1 GSZ +1 Eternal Witness instead, or lose the Thoughtseizes for Collective Brutality (actually that sounds like a fine idea since going back up to 4 Souls).


Is there also a more standardized version of the deck, so i can at least determine what base cards i need to buy to build this? And i notice that the Starfield of Nyx version has fallen out of flavor?

[square_two]

Is there also a more standardized version of the deck, so i can at least determine what base cards i need to buy to build this? And i notice that the Starfield of Nyx version has fallen out of flavor?

What I've been on for a while. Feel free to sub Pushes for Swords if you want more ways to kill Rector. I don't think they are that necessary and I've liked being able to handle Anglers and Marit Lages with Swords.

22
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

10
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
4 Academy Rector

28
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Mirri's Guile
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
3 Evolutionary Leap
2 Sylvan Library
3 Lingering Souls
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Dovescape
1 Cruel Reality
1 Overwhelming Splendor
3 Green Sun's Zenith

side:
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Lost Legacy
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Choke
2 Carpet of Flowers

IMO, Starfield of Nyx just didn't ever feel needed to me, not after we got Overwhelming Splendor and Cruel Reality/Sandwurm printed. Beating fair decks used to involve Deed recursion but Splendor does such a better, simpler job. Again, opponent's don't have answers game 1, so at best it'd be a sideboard card. When were were slower and running with Groves and killable enchantment creatures (Doomwake, for instance), it felt much more necessary.

Sandwurm could be tried instead of Cruel, they cover very similar situations but I've enjoyed immediately killing Jace's with Cruel.

[Bobmans]

What I've been on for a while. Feel free to sub Pushes for Swords if you want more ways to kill Rector. I don't think they are that necessary and I've liked being able to handle Anglers and Marit Lages with Swords.

22
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

10
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
4 Academy Rector

28
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Mirri's Guile
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
3 Evolutionary Leap
2 Sylvan Library
3 Lingering Souls
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Dovescape
1 Cruel Reality
1 Overwhelming Splendor
3 Green Sun's Zenith

side:
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Lost Legacy
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Choke
2 Carpet of Flowers

IMO, Starfield of Nyx just didn't ever feel needed to me, not after we got Overwhelming Splendor and Cruel Reality/Sandwurm printed. Beating fair decks used to involve Deed recursion but Splendor does such a better, simpler job. Again, opponent's don't have answers game 1, so at best it'd be a sideboard card. When were were slower and running with Groves and killable enchantment creatures (Doomwake, for instance), it felt much more necessary.

Sandwurm could be tried instead of Cruel, they cover very similar situations but I've enjoyed immediately killing Jace's with Cruel.

The build looks very clean. I am going to give it a spin. Thnx.

Edit: probably going to cut the Collective Brutality and Abrupt Decay for Plow#4, Vindicate and Deed #3. For the rest, i like it as is.

[Navsi]

The build looks very clean. I am going to give it a spin. Thnx.

Edit: probably going to cut the Collective Brutality and Abrupt Decay for Plow#4, Vindicate and Deed #3. For the rest, i like it as is.

Note that swapping Brutality out for spot removal makes your spell-based combo matchups significantly worse.

[Lobo]

Note that swapping Brutality out for spot removal makes your spell-based combo matchups significantly worse.

It also ignores the escalation synergy Brutality has with Lingering Souls and Cabal Therapy. "Cast Collective Brutality, escalate pitching Lingering Souls, kill your Deathrite, discard your Hymn, flashback Lingering Souls" is a turn well spent. Having played a list very similar to square_two's at Eternal Weekend, I'm looking to make more room for Brutality, not less.

[Bobmans]

It also ignores the escalation synergy Brutality has with Lingering Souls and Cabal Therapy. "Cast Collective Brutality, escalate pitching Lingering Souls, kill your Deathrite, discard your Hymn, flashback Lingering Souls" is a turn well spent. Having played a list very similar to square_two's at Eternal Weekend, I'm looking to make more room for Brutality, not less.Brutality lacks reach, I can also just cast a Plow and the spell i was gonna escalate. I want to improve the Matchups i can beat, not weaken them by trying to improve already bad matchups.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk

[square_two]

Brutality lacks reach, I can also just cast a Plow and the spell i was gonna escalate. I want to improve the Matchups i can beat, not weaken them by trying to improve already bad matchups.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk

You may be surprised by the ability of the deck to handle combo and obscure matchups, but I will leave that up to your own testing. Quite a number of times I've been able to squeak out Dovescape game 1 against storm. Personally I do enjoy having more 1-drops (see the added Guile), but Brutality has been very good to me. It's about the only reason I've ever beaten Burn with Nic Fit. Either that or Thragtusk.

[Memories of the Time]

You may be surprised by the ability of the deck to handle combo and obscure matchups, but I will leave that up to your own testing. Quite a number of times I've been able to squeak out Dovescape game 1 against storm. Personally I do enjoy having more 1-drops (see the added Guile), but Brutality has been very good to me. It's about the only reason I've ever beaten Burn with Nic Fit. Either that or Thragtusk.

^Agree.
As said, i've switched spot removal for 4 Brutality and it has been one of the best choice in this deck. Now we can even have an almost good g1 vs combo and Burn, the only bad mu for this deck.
Really, this deck it's so streamlined and strong.

[TLK]

^Agree.
As said, i've switched spot removal for 4 Brutality and it has been one of the best choice in this deck. Now we can even have an almost good g1 vs combo and Burn, the only bad mu for this deck.
Really, this deck it's so streamlined and strong.

What's your build look like?

[Memories of the Time]

What's your build look like?

// 60 Mazzo
// 10 Creature
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
4 Academy Rector
1 Dryad Arbor

// 14 Enchantment
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Evolutionary Leap
1 Dovescape
1 Sandwurm Convergence
1 Overwhelming Splendor
3 Mirri's Guile
2 Ground Seal

// 22 Land
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Phyrexian Tower

// 14 Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Collective Brutality
4 Lingering Souls


// 15 Sideboard
// 6 Enchantment
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 3 Leyline of the Void

// 2 Instant
SB: 2 Swords to Plowshares

// 7 Sorcery
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Timely Reinforcements


I'm trying Ground Seal instead of scroll rack. They're the only 2 slots i'm unsure about.
For the rest, i'm very happy about this build, i've won an unbeliavable amount of g1 against Storm, Reanimator and S&T thx to Brutality and the deck structure. I'm so happy and confidant that i'll join mtgo for the first time and build this list =) on cockatrice i've like 95% of win? But it's not so reliable ^^

[Ulysse95]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32078-10th-at-Eternal-Weekend-with-Dino-Scapewish&p=1028082#post1028082

Report is up.

Going to do a postmortem on my decklist and cover some brief sideboarding things quickly.

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Regisaur Alpha
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Carnage Tyrant

3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Burning Wish
2 Scapeshift

2 Abrupt Decay

2 Nissa, Vital Force

2 Sylvan Library
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Badlands
4 Taiga
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills

sb::
1 Scapeshift
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Pyroclasm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Innocent Blood
1 Lost Legacy
2 Slaughter Games
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pulse of Murasa

2 Steve: This deck is a bit top-heavy in both fair and combo plans, so you really want some extra acceleration alongside the Vets. Steve plays very nicely with Tracker, as well -- he puts you into Tracker + clue quicker, or represents a block and a clue if drawn later.

Nissa, VWS: Your goal is to get to 7 lands quickly anyway, so her condition for flipping is already met. She's super easy to flip -- basically any time you want to Zenith for her, you're probably flipping her. She also flips in response to removal by way of fetchlands, which a cool trick. Once she flips, her card draw and her token protector are both relevant, as well. She has continued to be very good for me.

2 Tracker: Tracker is fine here due to the large land count (24) and amount of ramp spells -- again, turning a lategame Steve into a cantrip is perfectly fine. He also lets you draw a bunch of cards off a Scapeshift if you can't kill them with it for some reason (leyline of sanctity or whatever). He also grows to tangle with Gurmags quickly, and pressures combo while drawing into more disruption.

Regis: Regis & Kelly successfully killed a couple planeswalkers on the day, although I never played against something like Czech pile, which is where the card shines in particular. Good value guy, good aggression, and threatens a nasty turn with Carnage Tyrant if Regis sticks around.

Carnage: He's the biggest, dumbest idiot and sometimes you need a big, dumb idiot. He beats everything except the largest Goyfs (and Goyf is super out of favor atm). Like I said in my interview (https://go.twitch.tv/videos/183919079 at 3:31), the best thing most decks currently can hope to do to him is throw a Strix in the way, in which they're still taking 6 on the block. Hexproof is important, as is trample. Uncounterable matters less, but does come up sometimes.

Primeval Titan: A plan unto himself, plays well with both Valakut and also with the "lands as cards" theme of Tracker and Vital Force. He's not always relevant, and he does get boarded out a lot, but he's an insane bomb when you need him.

Discard suite: This became industry standard towards the end of Scape's previous life cycle, and seemed fine on the weekend as well. Sometimes I boarded out the Thoughtseizes to improve my topdeck quality, but they were nice to have in the maindeck to get more information or have slightly more protection against combo or control.

2 Decay: I do kind of still wish I had room for another removal spell or two maindeck, but the deck honestly feels pretty tight at this point. Decay was definitely the right call -- Chalice of the Void is on the upswing, and while we don't typically need to kill Chalice all the time, sometimes it does matter if our hand is choked on 1s vs Eldrazi or some such. I also blew up a random Trinisphere from the Cloudpost deck, and being uncounterable is great vs Delver, as we all know.

2 Vital Force: This card is bananas in the metagame right now in general and Scape, in particular, uses it very well. Every mode on this card is important, and knowing when to off her for her emblem is challenging but rewarding when you get it right. Don't forget that if you have her Emblem and you play a Fetchland, you can hold priority in response to the Emblem trigger and fetch, which will result in you drawing 2 cards after your fetch resolves.

Manabase: felt about as stable as it ever does in this deck. Sometimes you run into awkward draws, especially against an opponent who is determined to screw with your manabase, but in general it's pretty robust and holds up to even a pair of Wastelands pretty well. Again, don't forget to priority fetching for basics unless you know the coast is clear. The deck runs off a basic Forest pretty well -- that basic Forest is your first goal, and then from there you can spread outward.

Wishboard: Everything felt pretty solid. I still hate the Innocent Blood, but I know that as soon as I take it out, I'm going to have to deal with a bunch of Show and Tell nonsense. I still wish there was a 1B -2/-2 pyroclasm variant :(

Sideboard: Everything was good here, too. The Pulse of Murasa could potentially be a 3rd Surgical, but I liked having the Pulse -- it performed well for me a couple times on the day when I needed it to.

Brief sideboarding notes:

Vs Grixis/RUG Delver:

-2 Nissa Vital
-1 Primeval Titan
-1 Regisaur

+1 Pyroclasm
+1 Pulse of Murasa
+2 Lightning Bolt

Pretty standard. You kinda want both Pyroclasms in postboard against Grixis if they're high on Pyromancers, but that means you need to cut an additional card, which is tough. Vastwood Seer is /probably/ the 5th cut if need be, but you're going to definitely have times where you miss it.

Vs Czech:

-1 Pernicious Deed
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Green Sun's Zenith
-1 Veteran Explorer

+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Lightning Bolt
+1 Pulse of Murasa

This matchup is mostly about making your draws better because this game is going to go long. Surgical comes in to "counter" Snapcasters at important junctions, and you take out a Zenith in order to Wish for one. Czech frequently has some amount of Invasive Surgery, so being able to protect a Zenith from that is also important -- aside from just increasing your bomb density (4 Zeniths to functionally 7). If you don't want to cut a Vet, you can cut a Steve or a Bayou or a Forest or something instead. You just need to cut /a/ mana source, it doesn't matter too much which one it is.

Vs Storm:

-1 Carnage
-1 Primeval
-1 Regis
-2 Nissa Vital

+2 Slaughter Games
+1 Cabal Therapy
+2 Surgical Extraction

You're trying to lean down your deck. Vital Force is actually decent against storm, but you need cheaper cards. Discard and Surgicals go after their support cards -- either mana or gas -- while Slaughter Games or BW->Lost Legacy goes after their actual win conditions; tendrils first, since forcing them on to Empty is actively good for us, and then Empty for the final blow.

Decay stays in because storm pilots will frequently try to park an LED or a Petal in play in order to protect it from our discard, and then we can nuke it from orbit. Deed has the same role, but also protects us from Empty to some degree.

--------

Hopefully that gives you some idea or insight into what I do -- should be able to extrapolate from that. Generally speaking you're looking to bring in like 3-5 cards and adjust your maindeck to the speed you need it to be as well as adjusting the plans that you have available to you.

Hi !

First of all: GG for your results !
I've tried it wednesday on a middle event (5 rounds top 8). I finished at 3/2. Every game was winnable, but I had some issues with flood essentially, and not enought discard to go throught the counter magic. Or sometimes opponent discard plan alone sort of killed me.

R1

Grixis delver 2-1
I won on additionnal turns thanks to scapeshift

R2

Grixis delver 1-2
Each game was sharp and it was a close win.

R3

Aggro Loam 2-0

R4

Eldrazi/Thalia stompy 2-0

R5

Death shadow UB 0-2
I kept a bad first hand and made a bad choice on the second game, only due to tiredness I hope :D


So, I feel that even if it would have been better with more practize, I would kept on to much luck issues and think that's a diamond that still can be sharped.

So I customised it a bit to give it an other try tonight ;)
My best shot on it I think is to give it back 4 cabal main and put a tendrils of despair in the cabal side slot (most of the time, I fetch for it essentially to kill a vet anyways, and mid/late game, tendril effect should be better and get througt stp).

[Ralf]

So, I feel that even if it would have been better with more practize, I would kept on to much luck issues and think that's a diamond that still can be sharped.

So I customised it a bit to give it an other try tonight ;)
My best shot on it I think is to give it back 4 cabal main and put a tendrils of despair in the cabal side slot (most of the time, I fetch for it essentially to kill a vet anyways, and mid/late game, tendril effect should be better and get througt stp).

Any words on the beatup backup plan (especially those dinos...)?

[Ulysse95]

Any words on the beatup backup plan (especially those dinos...)?

I didn't see them a lot actually :/
Except for Tyrant that I've seen often to early, dirtying my hand with the 6 ccm of his...
I casted it like two times, too late or in hand like an overkill program.
But Regis was truly ok when I saw him, I time top deck killing a Liliana against agro loam was golden!

So I'm lowering the curve, adding a tracker.
Let's see how it goes for me...

[Bobmans]

@Brael, Talking about lowering the curve, what does your list currently look like?

Aside of the talk about Nyx Fit, I am still comparing builds and haven't discided yet what to build/focus on.

[TLK]

// 60 Mazzo
// 10 Creature
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
4 Academy Rector
1 Dryad Arbor

// 14 Enchantment
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Evolutionary Leap
1 Dovescape
1 Sandwurm Convergence
1 Overwhelming Splendor
3 Mirri's Guile
2 Ground Seal

// 22 Land
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Phyrexian Tower

// 14 Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Collective Brutality
4 Lingering Souls


// 15 Sideboard
// 6 Enchantment
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 3 Leyline of the Void

// 2 Instant
SB: 2 Swords to Plowshares

// 7 Sorcery
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Timely Reinforcements


I'm trying Ground Seal instead of scroll rack. They're the only 2 slots i'm unsure about.
For the rest, i'm very happy about this build, i've won an unbeliavable amount of g1 against Storm, Reanimator and S&T thx to Brutality and the deck structure. I'm so happy and confidant that i'll join mtgo for the first time and build this list =) on cockatrice i've like 95% of win? But it's not so reliable ^^

Thanks! Pardon me if I'm missing something blatantly obvious, but I have a question about an interaction. So I understand that Dovescape counters noncreature spells and then Sandwurm Convergence renders those creatures useless, but then doesn't Overwhelming Splendor negate this by taking away the flying? Or I'm assuming if you already have the Dovescape/Convergence lock you just don't play Splendor?

[Brael]

@Brael, Talking about lowering the curve, what does your list currently look like?

This is off of memory, I needed some cards for Modern so the deck isn't really assembled at the moment.

Land 23
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
5 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas

Creatures 19
1 Walking Ballista
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Carnage Tyrant

Spells 18
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Collective Brutality
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pernicious Deed

Sideboard 15
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Duress
1 Crop Rotation
1 Maze of Ith
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Walking Ballista
4 Lost Legacy

Here's what I would like to build though, the list is untested, and I'm pretty far away from being able to assemble it.
Land 25
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Badlands
4 Taiga
1 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Dryad Arbor

Creatures 19
1 Walking Ballista
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dragonmaster Outcast
1 Sakura Tribe-Elder
3 Dark Confidant
2 Imperial Recruiter
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Huntmaster of the Fells

Spells 18
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Collective Brutality
1 Burning Wish
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Scapeshift

Sideboard 15
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Carpet of Flowers
4 Lost Legacy
1 Sylvan Scrying
1 Maze of Ith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Collective Brutality
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Scapeshift

[Memories of the Time]

Thanks! Pardon me if I'm missing something blatantly obvious, but I have a question about an interaction. So I understand that Dovescape counters noncreature spells and then Sandwurm Convergence renders those creatures useless, but then doesn't Overwhelming Splendor negate this by taking away the flying? Or I'm assuming if you already have the Dovescape/Convergence lock you just don't play Splendor?

Dovescape, Splendor and Convergence are 3 cards (+deed, sometimes) that resolves 99% of the cases. Playing leap, sac a rector to grab a Dovescape and then play another rector for Convergence is just the top interaction, but in the majority of the games you win just slamming one piece ^^
Really, that's not a problem you have to concern about =D

[ObligatoryReference]

Hey all,

So I played in the ChannelFireball 4K last weekend, and finally got some time to do a quick writeup.

Nyx Fit (which I've started calling Curse Fit, since there's no Starfield of Nyx in the deck and all the lock pieces are either Curses or might as well be)

2x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
2x Phyrexian Tower

4x Veteran Explorer
2x Eternal Witness
4x Academy Rector

3x Swords to Plowshares
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Collective Brutality
3x Evolutionary Leap
2x Sylvan Library
1x Abrupt Decay
4x Lingering Souls
2x Pernicious Deed
2x Green Sun's Zenith

1x Curse of Death's Hold
1x Dovescape
1x Cruel Reality
1x Overwhelming Splendor
1x Sandwurm Convergence

Sideboard

2x Stony Silence
2x Curse of Exhaustion
3x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Surgical Extraction
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Helm of Obedience

Yes, that is Helm of Obedience in the sideboard. There is really no reason for it to be there, other than that winning even once would be worth it (spoiler alert: I did).

The Games

Match 1 - Grixis Delver

G1: My opponent goes T1 Deathrite Shaman, T2 DRS+Delver, and I'm stuck with nothing really relevant. Fortunately, I get a couple of good topdecks - Deed to clear the board, then Rector + Phyrexian Tower to tutor up an Overwhelming Spendor. After a few turns of nothing, he concedes.

G2: Similar to game 1, he starts quickly but I sweep with Deed and run out Spendor. This time, though, he drops a few more creatures and starts beating me down with 1/1s. I'm at 6 when I finally find a Vet, which I Leap into a Rector into Curse of Death's Hold, and it's game over. 1-0

Match 2 - Some BUG variant

Lost my notes for this one, so this is by memory.

G1: My opponent mulls, and I keep a questionable hand which unfortunately gets ripped apart with Hymn to Tourach. He gets a Tarmogoyf out and I can't find anything relevant.

G2: My opponent mulls again. Fortunately, this time I have action and return the favor by ripping apart their hand with Vet+Therapy. He fiddles around with a DRS, but soon enough I find Rector and win.

G3: He starts with DRS into Hymn to Tourach, which fortunately(?) hits Lingering Souls. I beat down with spirits for a bit until I find Rector. 2-0

Match 3 - Stoneblade

G1: We both mull to 6. After a T2 Stoneforge Mystic, I Therapy away the Jitte and see 2 True-Name Nemeses (which I fortunately am able to hit on the flashback). After that, it turns into a topdeck war, which he wins with a JaceTMS.

G2: Probably my worst mistake of the day. I board in Leyline of the Void + Helm, and keep a sketchy hand with Leyline. After some back and forth, it's my Sylvan Library vs his JTMS. Unfortunately, one fateful turn I forget my Library trigger (too much practicing on MTGO and not enough on paper :p). On my opponent's turn he fateseals with Jace, does a double take, and puts it to the bottom. I end up not finding anything else. After I concede, he reveals that he had seen Helm. Welp. 2-1

Match 4 - Lands

G1: We go on a mulligan spree - him to 4, me to 5. I had played 4 straight matches against a similar deck on MTGO the night before, so I had a good idea of an approach to take when I see T1 Taiga + Gamble. He recovers from the mulls pretty quickly, but I still had enough time to drop Leap, then go Vet -> Rector (Sandwurm Convergence) -> Rector (Cruel Reality).

G2: A nice quick match. I start with Leyline of the Void, then go T1 Vet -> T2 Cabal Therapy, hitting a Crop Rotation first and Krosan Grip on the flashback. A couple turns later, I hit Helm with enough land to activate it immediately. 3-1

At this point, I feel that the day has been a success no matter what. This is good, because the next two rounds are pretty bad.

Match 5 - BUG Delver

Both games are almost exactly the same - I drop a Vet + Therapy, hit nothing first and 1 card on the rebound, then fail to find anything relevant the rest of the game. I eventually lose to a Goyf G1 and a Tombstalker G2. 3-2

Match 6 - ?

I was pretty tired at this point, forgot to take notes, and remember only that I lost quickly to another Delver-type deck. 3-3

There was still 30+ min left on the clock, and with nothing on the line I decided at this point to drop and get some sleep rather than wait 45 min for a final round.

Final Thoughts

I'll probably make some tweaks to the deck - I put Curse of Exhaustion in the side mostly to be cute, but Ethersworn Canonist is probably just better. Abrupt Decay was OK, but every time I got it I would have rather had another Deed. On the other hand, Collective Brutality was awesome, especially when I could Duress + take out an opposing Deathrite Shaman, and I might consider dropping an Eternal Witness or something to make room for another. The frequency of mulliganing was also a little concerning, but I'm not sure how to handle that.

All this aside, this deck is a blast to play. Even when I was losing, the fact that I could be one topdecked Rector away from victory means there was a big incentive to constantly process whatever information I got. I can also tell that I need more practice with the deck, especially on paper - I punted at least one game because of a missed trigger and might have been able to do better in the last two matches if I could have kept more focus. I did get lucky in not seeing any combo other than Lands, a matchup I think isn't really too bad assuming a half-decent draw. On the other hand, I got horrendous card luck in a couple of my losses, and most of my wins didn't feel particularly close.

Also, let's be serious - one of the best feelings in Legacy is playing a card and seeing the opponent furrow his brow and lean over to read it.

TL;DR: Lots of fun, need more practice, 10/10 would play again

Thanks for reading!

[Ulysse95]

Hey all,

So I played in the ChannelFireball 4K last weekend, and finally got some time to do a quick writeup.

Nyx Fit (which I've started calling Curse Fit, since there's no Starfield of Nyx in the deck and all the lock pieces are either Curses or might as well be)

2x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
2x Phyrexian Tower

4x Veteran Explorer
2x Eternal Witness
4x Academy Rector

3x Swords to Plowshares
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Collective Brutality
3x Evolutionary Leap
2x Sylvan Library
1x Abrupt Decay
4x Lingering Souls
2x Pernicious Deed
2x Green Sun's Zenith

1x Curse of Death's Hold
1x Dovescape
1x Cruel Reality
1x Overwhelming Splendor
1x Sandwurm Convergence

Sideboard

2x Stony Silence
2x Curse of Exhaustion
3x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Surgical Extraction
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Helm of Obedience

Yes, that is Helm of Obedience in the sideboard. There is really no reason for it to be there, other than that winning even once would be worth it (spoiler alert: I did).

The Games

Match 1 - Grixis Delver

G1: My opponent goes T1 Deathrite Shaman, T2 DRS+Delver, and I'm stuck with nothing really relevant. Fortunately, I get a couple of good topdecks - Deed to clear the board, then Rector + Phyrexian Tower to tutor up an Overwhelming Spendor. After a few turns of nothing, he concedes.

G2: Similar to game 1, he starts quickly but I sweep with Deed and run out Spendor. This time, though, he drops a few more creatures and starts beating me down with 1/1s. I'm at 6 when I finally find a Vet, which I Leap into a Rector into Curse of Death's Hold, and it's game over. 1-0

Match 2 - Some BUG variant

Lost my notes for this one, so this is by memory.

G1: My opponent mulls, and I keep a questionable hand which unfortunately gets ripped apart with Hymn to Tourach. He gets a Tarmogoyf out and I can't find anything relevant.

G2: My opponent mulls again. Fortunately, this time I have action and return the favor by ripping apart their hand with Vet+Therapy. He fiddles around with a DRS, but soon enough I find Rector and win.

G3: He starts with DRS into Hymn to Tourach, which fortunately(?) hits Lingering Souls. I beat down with spirits for a bit until I find Rector. 2-0

Match 3 - Stoneblade

G1: We both mull to 6. After a T2 Stoneforge Mystic, I Therapy away the Jitte and see 2 True-Name Nemeses (which I fortunately am able to hit on the flashback). After that, it turns into a topdeck war, which he wins with a JaceTMS.

G2: Probably my worst mistake of the day. I board in Leyline of the Void + Helm, and keep a sketchy hand with Leyline. After some back and forth, it's my Sylvan Library vs his JTMS. Unfortunately, one fateful turn I forget my Library trigger (too much practicing on MTGO and not enough on paper :p). On my opponent's turn he fateseals with Jace, does a double take, and puts it to the bottom. I end up not finding anything else. After I concede, he reveals that he had seen Helm. Welp. 2-1

Match 4 - Lands

G1: We go on a mulligan spree - him to 4, me to 5. I had played 4 straight matches against a similar deck on MTGO the night before, so I had a good idea of an approach to take when I see T1 Taiga + Gamble. He recovers from the mulls pretty quickly, but I still had enough time to drop Leap, then go Vet -> Rector (Sandwurm Convergence) -> Rector (Cruel Reality).

G2: A nice quick match. I start with Leyline of the Void, then go T1 Vet -> T2 Cabal Therapy, hitting a Crop Rotation first and Krosan Grip on the flashback. A couple turns later, I hit Helm with enough land to activate it immediately. 3-1

At this point, I feel that the day has been a success no matter what. This is good, because the next two rounds are pretty bad.

Match 5 - BUG Delver

Both games are almost exactly the same - I drop a Vet + Therapy, hit nothing first and 1 card on the rebound, then fail to find anything relevant the rest of the game. I eventually lose to a Goyf G1 and a Tombstalker G2. 3-2

Match 6 - ?

I was pretty tired at this point, forgot to take notes, and remember only that I lost quickly to another Delver-type deck. 3-3

There was still 30+ min left on the clock, and with nothing on the line I decided at this point to drop and get some sleep rather than wait 45 min for a final round.

Final Thoughts

I'll probably make some tweaks to the deck - I put Curse of Exhaustion in the side mostly to be cute, but Ethersworn Canonist is probably just better. Abrupt Decay was OK, but every time I got it I would have rather had another Deed. On the other hand, Collective Brutality was awesome, especially when I could Duress + take out an opposing Deathrite Shaman, and I might consider dropping an Eternal Witness or something to make room for another. The frequency of mulliganing was also a little concerning, but I'm not sure how to handle that.

All this aside, this deck is a blast to play. Even when I was losing, the fact that I could be one topdecked Rector away from victory means there was a big incentive to constantly process whatever information I got. I can also tell that I need more practice with the deck, especially on paper - I punted at least one game because of a missed trigger and might have been able to do better in the last two matches if I could have kept more focus. I did get lucky in not seeing any combo other than Lands, a matchup I think isn't really too bad assuming a half-decent draw. On the other hand, I got horrendous card luck in a couple of my losses, and most of my wins didn't feel particularly close.

Also, let's be serious - one of the best feelings in Legacy is playing a card and seeing the opponent furrow his brow and lean over to read it.

TL;DR: Lots of fun, need more practice, 10/10 would play again

Thanks for reading!

Hi!

Nice deck!

My concerns: I think you're heavy on big enchants, aren't you? How many games where screwed by to many of them forcing mulligans or as soon dead cards in hand? Just to know :smile:

If it was me, I would remove at least one among cruel reality/sandwurm

Also I would had 1GSZ to find more easily those veterans and 1 Dryad has been really relevant for me as ever fetchable leap sacrifice.

Your feeling?

Ah! Yes! Question: on the reading I see a lot of DRS. Did your opponnents often forgot to deal rector with it too? :wink:

[Memories of the Time]

Hi!
Nice deck!
My concerns: I think you're heavy on big enchants, aren't you? How many games where screwed by to many of them forcing mulligans or as soon dead cards in hand? Just to know :smile:
If it was me, I would remove at least one among cruel reality/sandwurm
Also I would had 1GSZ to find more easily those veterans and 1 Dryad has been really relevant for me as ever fetchable leap sacrifice.
Your feeling?
Ah! Yes! Question: on the reading I see a lot of DRS. Did your opponnents often forgot to deal rector with it too? :wink:

Same questions for me too =D
I'm happy that you agree with me about the incredible flexibility of brutality in this deck, and i'll suggest you to try the 4x cutting a big ench (for me, Sandwurm is >>>>>>>> Cruel).

[Brael]

Yes, that is Helm of Obedience in the sideboard. There is really no reason for it to be there, other than that winning even once would be worth it (spoiler alert: I did).


I'm actually pretty interested in using the Helm combo. Just need some better ways to tutor it.

[Bobmans]

I'm actually pretty interested in using the Helm combo. Just need some better ways to tutor it.

With Dryad Arbor and 4 copies of Lingering Souls, Academy Rector, and Veteran Explorer this should warrant for some additional copies of Diabolic Intent.

Edit: saccing Rector for Intent could potentially dig-up the combo in one go.

Edit2: There is also Enlightened Tutor of course, but i don't realistically see myself searching for any enchantment other then Deed.

[ObligatoryReference]

Hi!

Nice deck!

My concerns: I think you're heavy on big enchants, aren't you? How many games where screwed by to many of them forcing mulligans or as soon dead cards in hand? Just to know :smile:

If it was me, I would remove at least one among cruel reality/sandwurm

I mulliganed a lot, but really never because of too many enchantments - it was always because either no land or no action. It's tough, because all of the enchantments have been all-stars at one point or another. That said, if the meta at CFB stays the same (lots of DRS) I'll probably move Cruel Reality to the sideboard - it's still great in some matchups.




Also I would had 1GSZ to find more easily those veterans and 1 Dryad has been really relevant for me as ever fetchable leap sacrifice.

Your feeling?

Ah! Yes! Question: on the reading I see a lot of DRS. Did your opponnents often forgot to deal rector with it too? :wink:

I played with 1 Dryad for quite a while, but just found too many cases where it was bad (usually involving cracking Deed).

No, most of the people knew the interaction, unfortunately :). This is one of the reasons why Collective Brutality was great for me.


I'm actually pretty interested in using the Helm combo. Just need some better ways to tutor it..

Yeah, I thought about making it a package with Enlightened Tutor, but I decided to just leave it as a one-of-surprise to put in whenever the Leylines would go in anyway. Definitely something I'll play around with, though.

[MrIggins]

Interesting decision point came up in my local event last night, thought it might generate some good discussion.

Playing Scape against ANT in game 3, I won game 2 on the back of turn 4 Wish-> Lost Legacy and am on the draw game 3. He leads Delta->Sea, Ponder and keeps off Ponder. My hand is: Badlands, Bayou, Verdant Catacombs, Thoughtseize, Surgical Extraction, 2x Cabal Therapy.

What's your sequence of plays?

[pettdan]

Interesting decision point came up in my local event last night, thought it might generate some good discussion.

Playing Scape against ANT in game 3, I won game 2 on the back of turn 4 Wish-> Lost Legacy and am on the draw game 3. He leads Delta->Sea, Ponder and keeps off Ponder. My hand is: Badlands, Bayou, Verdant Catacombs, Thoughtseize, Surgical Extraction, 2x Cabal Therapy.

What's your sequence of plays?

Bayou, Thoughtseize to keep him off winning next turn, then if he could go off with 1 more card (Dark Ritual, LED or Infernal Tutor) I'd Surgical anything to force a shuffle. This becomes even better if there's a Tendrils, Infernal Tutor or a double of anything in his hand that you want to Surgical. Then you follow up with the Cabal Therapies over the next turn(s), but how you do that I guess depends on what pressure you can apply and what cards you can get from his hand, this is a more difficult aspect to reply to.

I think this is perhaps not a very controversial choice of plays, it becomes more difficult when considering what cards are reveiled form the opponent's hand. Like, if there is a Brainstorm which normally would be chosen, I would consider letting him keep it when you Thoughtseize and let him play it in response to a Cabal Therapy, only to use Surgical after Brainstorm resolves (old trick mentioned before in this thread).

[Brael]

Interesting decision point came up in my local event last night, thought it might generate some good discussion.

Playing Scape against ANT in game 3, I won game 2 on the back of turn 4 Wish-> Lost Legacy and am on the draw game 3. He leads Delta->Sea, Ponder and keeps off Ponder. My hand is: Badlands, Bayou, Verdant Catacombs, Thoughtseize, Surgical Extraction, 2x Cabal Therapy.

What's your sequence of plays?

I would probably mulligan that hand.

Assuming you don't though, I would Thoughtseize and aim to disrupt a T2 win. Your primary goal here is to live long enough to use your disruption so Thoughtseize is what you want to stop a T2 win.

On T2 I would hopefully have something else to do since there would be 2 draw steps to find action.

T3 is more complex, and you again have to disrupt if you don't want to die. If they pass with a blue up, you have to assume Brainstorm. So start with Cabal Therapy, if you have a creature down, you can reasonably infer that they plan to Brainstorm on the second casting. So if they do nothing, name Brainstorm. If they cast Brainstorm in response let it resolve, then with Therapy still on the stack use Surgical Extraction on Brainstorm to force a shuffle and see their hand. Name whatever seems appealing with Therapy. Then follow it up with the second Therapy, and a flashback if necessary. If you get through this sequence without using the Extraction, fire it off as another discard spell if relevant.

From here, you've probably bought yourself until turn 5 or 6. So you really need to follow up with a clock. If you drew something big, and you had a creature from T2 I would consider a Flashback therapy over a casted one in order to put the mana towards a bigger clock.

Edit: More detail on the line.

[Ralf]

I'll fetch first (into bayou) just to increase my chances to draw another business card next turn.

Turn 1
1) Fetch -> Bayou
2) Play TS
3) Depending on what I chose with TS, I would hold or play Surgical

Turn 2 (I don't take into account the drawn card here)
1) Badland
2) Play CT then the trick if needed (CT in the stack -> BS in response -> Surgical after BS is resolved to not miss on the CT)
3) Play CT n°2

[MrIggins]

Holding Surgical for Brainstorm is actually interesting. I would not have thought of that. Good line to keep in mind.

I went for Surgical your Ponders to force the shuffle, then evaluate which discard spell to run based on his hand. My reasoning was that there are certainly hands he could have that kill me through Thoughtseize even with a random draw, but which Therapy would disrupt effectively. Stuff like 2x Tutor I guess, but in that case I'd Surgical the Tutor so I think that was just a mistake. Didn't fully think it through.

Turns out his hand was Ritual, Ritual, Duress, Echoing Truth, 2 lands with an Ad Nauseam hiding off the Ponder. Therapy for his Rituals brutalized his hand and I effectively destroyed all his resources over the next few turns (and lost to topdecked Ad Nauseam when he was at 0 cards, but that's not the point). I thought the early game decision point was pretty interesting and I do think I ended up on the wrong line, even though it worked out very well against what he had. I'd love to hear other arguments or sequences.

EDIT: Mulliganing that 7 seems insane to me, yes you need a clock but you get so much time with all that disruption

[p.faul01]

Interesting decision point came up in my local event last night, thought it might generate some good discussion.

Playing Scape against ANT in game 3, I won game 2 on the back of turn 4 Wish-> Lost Legacy and am on the draw game 3. He leads Delta->Sea, Ponder and keeps off Ponder. My hand is: Badlands, Bayou, Verdant Catacombs, Thoughtseize, Surgical Extraction, 2x Cabal Therapy.

What's your sequence of plays?I think my line world be: surgical -> badlands -> therapy. This way we get to see his hand and possibly hit 2 cards with therapy. Further we shuffle his deck with surgical. But not sure if it's more important to keep the surgical for later...

Edit: whoops my phone didn't load the other posts.. sry ;)

Gesendet von meinem SM-J320F mit Tapatalk

[removedfromgame]

Ive been working on a list that tries to push the* excavator/azusa interaction. Since we seem to be in a lull time. Its been playing out alright but i dont know how strong it is. I want to believe in crucible of guy.

Decklist -- Dig fit -- Shared via TopDecked MTG
Dig fit:

Maindeck (61)

Creatures (19)
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1 Eternal Witness
1 Heartwood Storyteller
1 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Ramunap Excavator
3 Tireless Tracker
2 Titania, Protector of Argoth

Noncreature (19)
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Crop Rotation
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Pernicious Deed

Land (23)
1 Bayou
4 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Ifnir Deadlands
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Savannah
1 Scavenger Grounds
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath

Sideboard (15)
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Liliana's Defeat
2 Path to Exile
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm
2 Lost Legacy
1 Painful Truths
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Sorcerous Spyglass

So there are some interesting card choices outside of the midrange fit staples (ooze, drs, tracker, pridemage, etc)

Heartwood storyteller: may i present his royal majesty, the begger king of card advantage. Poor man's leovold theoretically helps shore up the fact that once this deck goes into topdeck mode the panic button gets pushed hard. Ideally it eats a kill spell that would be otherwise reserved for tracker and you get to draw a card for the privilege. It can draw your opponent some cards too but you can generally play around that since the majority of the non creatures in the deck are hand disruption (cabal/ts) or a 241 like deed. Also, its fun. Not a terribly serious card. It just wants to be loved and I have love for all of garfield's creatures.

Sylvan safekeeper: i genuinely don't know how many of these guys i should be playing. It synergizes so well with what the deck wants to do but is a horrible top deck and needs the other pieces to be relevant. One plus 4 gsz seems fine for now, but can be reevaluated.

Scavenging grounds: its a repeatable effect with excavator. Doesn't etb tapped. You can choose when it goes off if youre forced to play it for mana. A desert

Ifnir deadlands: i know its slow, but it seems better than cabal pit for a few reasons: counters are more relevant. Kills mentors where pit wouldnt. It can tap for colourless instead of pinging you when you need it for mana. Can also combo with the scavenging grounds. If your graveyard is targeted you can kill something without threshold. 5 mana is a lot, dont get me wrong but it seems interesting so im putting it through the scientific method.

Overall when it works it works. I havent had a large enough sample size to really point to how strong this list is, but it's fun to go off with azusa. There's a lot of synergy and enough answers to commom graveyard hate between the main and board that i dont feel like im completely dead to it. The list seems a little removal light, so im still workshopping the numbers.

The board, as always is subject to change but i feel like it gives me a wide array of answers to the bad match ups. Ive tried to cut as many 3 mana spells in the board cause this curve is kinda wackadoo. Forever a dog to jace.

Things im notably not playing are horizon canopy or the dark depths combo. The reason for this is i dont think the DD combo is where we want to be as that cuts into a huge chunk of deck space and we arent better than turbo depths. I just dont own a horizon canopy but i can see that in placeof my janky storyteller.

Life from the loam is also a consideration but i dont know if this deck needs it.

What does everyone think?

[Brael]

EDIT: Mulliganing that 7 seems insane to me, yes you need a clock but you get so much time with all that disruption

My argument is that disruption doesn't win games. Disruption plus a clock does. I would gladly trade 2 pieces of disruption in that hand for 1 threat.