[Primer] Nic Fit

[MrIggins]

My argument is that disruption doesn't win games. Disruption plus a clock does. I would gladly trade 2 pieces of disruption in that hand for 1 threat.

While I agree with you in general, I think your average 6 is going to be a lot worse in the matchup than THAT degree of disruption. I'd swap a Therapy for a Tracker in that hand in a heartbeat, but the risk of mulliganing to a 6 that just doesn't interact is too high, especially in the Scapeshift build.

[Ulysse95]

Ive been working on a list that tries to push the* excavator/azusa interaction. Since we seem to be in a lull time. Its been playing out alright but i dont know how strong it is. I want to believe in crucible of guy.

Decklist -- Dig fit -- Shared via TopDecked MTG
Dig fit:

Maindeck (61)

Creatures (19)
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1 Eternal Witness
1 Heartwood Storyteller
1 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Ramunap Excavator
3 Tireless Tracker
2 Titania, Protector of Argoth

Noncreature (19)
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Crop Rotation
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Pernicious Deed

Land (23)
1 Bayou
4 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Ifnir Deadlands
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Savannah
1 Scavenger Grounds
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath

Sideboard (15)
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Liliana's Defeat
2 Path to Exile
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm
2 Lost Legacy
1 Painful Truths
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Sorcerous Spyglass

So there are some interesting card choices outside of the midrange fit staples (ooze, drs, tracker, pridemage, etc)

Heartwood storyteller: may i present his royal majesty, the begger king of card advantage. Poor man's leovold theoretically helps shore up the fact that once this deck goes into topdeck mode the panic button gets pushed hard. Ideally it eats a kill spell that would be otherwise reserved for tracker and you get to draw a card for the privilege. It can draw your opponent some cards too but you can generally play around that since the majority of the non creatures in the deck are hand disruption (cabal/ts) or a 241 like deed. Also, its fun. Not a terribly serious card. It just wants to be loved and I have love for all of garfield's creatures.

Sylvan safekeeper: i genuinely don't know how many of these guys i should be playing. It synergizes so well with what the deck wants to do but is a horrible top deck and needs the other pieces to be relevant. One plus 4 gsz seems fine for now, but can be reevaluated.

Scavenging grounds: its a repeatable effect with excavator. Doesn't etb tapped. You can choose when it goes off if youre forced to play it for mana. A desert

Ifnir deadlands: i know its slow, but it seems better than cabal pit for a few reasons: counters are more relevant. Kills mentors where pit wouldnt. It can tap for colourless instead of pinging you when you need it for mana. Can also combo with the scavenging grounds. If your graveyard is targeted you can kill something without threshold. 5 mana is a lot, dont get me wrong but it seems interesting so im putting it through the scientific method.

Overall when it works it works. I havent had a large enough sample size to really point to how strong this list is, but it's fun to go off with azusa. There's a lot of synergy and enough answers to commom graveyard hate between the main and board that i dont feel like im completely dead to it. The list seems a little removal light, so im still workshopping the numbers.

The board, as always is subject to change but i feel like it gives me a wide array of answers to the bad match ups. Ive tried to cut as many 3 mana spells in the board cause this curve is kinda wackadoo. Forever a dog to jace.

Things im notably not playing are horizon canopy or the dark depths combo. The reason for this is i dont think the DD combo is where we want to be as that cuts into a huge chunk of deck space and we arent better than turbo depths. I just dont own a horizon canopy but i can see that in placeof my janky storyteller.

Life from the loam is also a consideration but i dont know if this deck needs it.

What does everyone think?

I think you forgot Courser of Kruphix. At least 1 instead of a Ramunap, probably a 2 instead of storyteller. Bolt proof, gain life and filtering your draw (a lot with Azuza + Tracker). And you become weakless to grave hate.
Also, scavenging ground isn't recursive at all and destroy your grave too... (yeah, you sac it in the cost of its ability, then you remove cards from both grave, including grounds)
My two cents

Edit: I also didn't saw any dryad arbor... And as DRS is a pleague against your grave land storage, and as you can easily discard any land without too much drawback, I would play collective brutality over thoughtseize

[Echelon]

On the Lands Matter Fit list: I'm not sure if it'll work. The land toolbox is nice, but you give up on easily being able to pressure your opponent. I expect a lot of durdling and very little of actually doing anything. The problem with a lot of your engine pieces is that they die very easily and do very little on their own. It just seems like a bad place to put yourself in.

[Nosdar]

Has anyone seen Mengucci's list? I really fell in love with this :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhKS46IORx8&t=4165s

[Echelon]

Has anyone seen Mengucci's list? I really fell in love with this :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhKS46IORx8&t=4165s

No, but NO Fit has been done to death and has always been found wanting. While NO gives Nic Fit a powerful plan, it's clunky and will often fail due to the lack of disruption NO Fit lists can support.

Simply put, when you want to run NO you're best of w/ Elves! and when you want to pilot Nic Fit you're best off running cards that work well without the help of other cards. NO Fit lacks the speed of Elves! and the disruptive ability of traditional Nic Fit lists (regardless of the chosen tertiary colour). The only reason you might do well with NO Fit is b/c the meta is soft to it and people come in unprepared for your NO plan.

[Bobmans]

Has anyone seen Mengucci's list? I really fell in love with this :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhKS46IORx8&t=4165sYou gotta wonder, how much better is Progenitus (plus the space for NO) compared to Carnage Tyrant. Is that really worth the effort?

On the other hand, the people in this thread, including myself always seem to discard performing lists if those do not fall into flavor. Just look at how people always piss on Birthing Pod. Then the excuse is always something like: 'luck' or 'that card is bad' or 'my variant is better'...

[pettdan]

Has anyone seen Mengucci's list? I really fell in love with this :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhKS46IORx8&t=4165s

There was some discussion around the time that the video was published. I couldn't find a publication date but I checked the comments and they were from about a month ago so it should be the same stream that was discussed here. Below you'll find a lengthy comment and there is some discussion before and probably after that post too.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31293-Primer-Nic-Fit&p=1025780&viewfull=1#post1025780

[Whitefaces]

On the other hand, the people in this thread, including myself always seem to discard performing lists if those do not fall into flavor. Just look at how people always piss on Birthing Pod. Then the excuse is always something like: 'luck' or 'that card is bad' or 'my variant is better'...

So true. If blue duals were cheaper I think we'd see people playing BUG builds a lot more. Siege Rhino is a joke of a card in the meta at the moment.

[Nosdar]

I agree that the Natural Order plan is not great. But I like the blue shell...
So, basically we have a million versions:
Natural Order
Valakut / Scapeshift
Normal BUG version
Academy Rector

Which is should I move in to?
Pro and cons of each version?

[pettdan]

I agree that the Natural Order plan is not great. But I like the blue shell...
So, basically we have a million versions:
Natural Order
Valakut / Scapeshift
Normal BUG version
Academy Rector

Which is should I move in to?
Pro and cons of each version?

There's a reason we are discussing one million versions in this thread, and it is at least partly due to there not being a specific best version. I suggest you start with a version that you are interested in, that fits your playstyle, that is close to what you have in cards and close to what you aim to play in the future or in parallell. So if you have the blue lands and think that version seems fun, I would start there. If you have zero cards, I would probably start with a simple, straightforward list like a Rhino-list.

[square_two]

There's a reason we are discussing one million versions in this thread, and it is at least partly due to there not being a specific best version. I suggest you start with a version that you are interested in, that fits your playstyle, that is close to what you have in cards and close to what you aim to play in the future or in parallell. So if you have the blue lands and think that version seems fun, I would start there. If you have zero cards, I would probably start with a simple, straightforward list like a Rhino-list.

100% this.

BUG is the one that imo is least defined. Million ways you can build it.

Too many variations, and this list is just myself cherry picking the versions that stick out to me as having potential.

BG
Lower cmc value (bobs, ranger of eos -> ballista/endless one, crop rotation)
Helm combo (I experimented with this, it seemed alright)

Junk
Standard w/ rhinos/general creatures
Nyx - Academy Rector (evo leap, 3-5 winning enchantments)

Jund
Sneak Attack
Scapeshift

Bug
Value-creature centric (strix, drs, tracker, meren, etc)
Walkers (Liliana/Jace/Nissa)
Emerge (elder deep fiend list from Isvan)
Intuition package

Not to mention the variations that blur between colors, such as various walker packages, crop rotation, natural order, birthing pod, excavator?, etc. Sometimes wish we had a separate thread for at least bug/jund/junk but I doubt that will ever happen. Would really help to hone in on good ideas and deck direction if we had enough activity in each.

As for pros/cons, that'd take more time to lay out. All are going to generally prey on fair decks. Against certain metas different ones will shine. Nyx for instance, is great against Lands due to swords/lingering souls/hardness of enchantment lock. Burn is going to have trouble against a rhino junk list that has collective brutalities. Helm is lolzy if you expect a ton of graveyard-abusing stuff. Sneak/Scapeshift have quite a bit of inevitability and scape has versatility with its wishes. Bug when packing brainstorm can handle various combo easier due to being able to find sideboard stuff quickly.

[Brael]

Has anyone seen Mengucci's list? I really fell in love with this :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhKS46IORx8&t=4165s

Look back a bit, there's some conversation on it when it came out. Conclusion was it was a bad list that was played poorly.

I'm glad that he makes Legacy content since so few do these days, but his playstyle really only works if he's playing draft decks or if he's using the cantrip shell to compensate for a bunch of bad plays. What I mean by this, is that he very often chooses lines that rely on getting specific topdecks. Then he loses when he doesn't get them. Simply put, his lines are too specific and when he loses the crutch of Ponder/Brainstorm to tie them together he loses almost all of his games.

[Brael]

100% this.

BUG is the one that imo is least defined. Million ways you can build it.


The problem with BUG that I've always run into is that blue is a really parasitic color in Legacy, if you're going to play it, it needs to be your main color. While for us it's usually tertiary or perhaps secondary. This makes the manabase and early curve of BUG very unstable.

[removedfromgame]

I think you forgot Courser of Kruphix. At least 1 instead of a Ramunap, probably a 2 instead of storyteller. Bolt proof, gain life and filtering your draw (a lot with Azuza + Tracker). And you become weakless to grave hate.
Also, scavenging ground isn't recursive at all and destroy your grave too... (yeah, you sac it in the cost of its ability, then you remove cards from both grave, including grounds)
My two cents

Edit: I also didn't saw any dryad arbor... And as DRS is a pleague against your grave land storage, and as you can easily discard any land without too much drawback, I would play collective brutality over thoughtseize

Legit forgot abour courser. Im a little hesitant to cut an excavator cause theyre important to the game plan but i can see that for a courser.

Also i didnt know about that interaction with scavenging grounds. It not being recursive makes my entire argument moot. Grounds out, bog in.

Also i have been talking about this deck on the discord channel. Ive already switched ts for brutality. Good catch tho. I didnt see it at first.


On the Lands Matter Fit list: I'm not sure if it'll work. The land toolbox is nice, but you give up on easily being able to pressure your opponent. I expect a lot of durdling and very little of actually doing anything. The problem with a lot of your engine pieces is that they die very easily and do very little on their own. It just seems like a bad place to put yourself in.

Yeah but this plays a disruption game that fights the plethora of midrange decks that run the format right now. The ideology is that this is a board control deck. I have my top end and trackers which apply pressure. Its true im probably playing 1 too many excavators, but the actual "combo" is only a few pieces.

Are you suggesting that the list could use some rhinos or something to put a little more hurt on the opponent?

[Kobra_D]

BUG, as mentioned, is still unexplored. So while a list might exist out there that handles everything we want I agree with the above conclusions that the GB rock style of most nic fit decks doesn't compliment blue perfectly.

For starting with nic fit I would also recommend the rhino shell. It is consistent. 50/50 in most match ups with the percentage going in favor of whoever is experienced with specific match ups. It is also one of the cheaper builds to start, so switching out isn't difficult on a budget.

The real nice thing I've found about not playing blue is that we get access to some damaging sideboard cards like choke (blood moon if we're in red and not playing scapeshift).

Given enough discard for combo decks, choke punishes every other deck that isn't D&T/Maverick. It really makes the sideboard look clean.

[Brael]

BUG, as mentioned, is still unexplored. So while a list might exist out there that handles everything we want I agree with the above conclusions that the GB rock style of most nic fit decks doesn't compliment blue perfectly.

I think the big mistake we make with BUG is Baleful Strix. It's such a great value card that it's almost always an auto include. Needing our secondary and tertiary colors early is a huge cost though. I think getting rid of Strix would be a good move. Also, I think Navsi is on the right track with Elder Deep Fiend.

[Amulet of the HangingLamp]

Why do people play Swords over Path in the Rector builds?

[Echelon]

Legit forgot abour courser. Im a little hesitant to cut an excavator cause theyre important to the game plan but i can see that for a courser.

Also i didnt know about that interaction with scavenging grounds. It not being recursive makes my entire argument moot. Grounds out, bog in.

Also i have been talking about this deck on the discord channel. Ive already switched ts for brutality. Good catch tho. I didnt see it at first.



Yeah but this plays a disruption game that fights the plethora of midrange decks that run the format right now. The ideology is that this is a board control deck. I have my top end and trackers which apply pressure. Its true im probably playing 1 too many excavators, but the actual "combo" is only a few pieces.

Are you suggesting that the list could use some rhinos or something to put a little more hurt on the opponent?

Not necessarily some, but at least 1. You'll often have the opportunity to go for a cool line, but most of the time just powering out a Rhino and starting to smash face is the most foolproof way to go. Sometimes I hate it, but is just is. Don't go for fancy, go for simple and safe. That simply nets you the highest success rate.

[Ulysse95]

Why do people play Swords over Path in the Rector builds?

Because it's a hard lock game. The main goal is to choke your opponnent into submition. The games you will win by being aggressive on life points are anecdotics.
Give an early extra land can be more problematic.
Also, you want in priority deal with DRS which is 1Life. It's also true for everything when splendor is on board.

[Kobra_D]

I think the big mistake we make with BUG is Baleful Strix. It's such a great value card that it's almost always an auto include. Needing our secondary and tertiary colors early is a huge cost though. I think getting rid of Strix would be a good move. Also, I think Navsi is on the right track with Elder Deep Fiend.

That sounds quite reasonable. Strix is good but not being able to green sun for it was a huge opportunity cost.

I have picked up the pieces for the elder deep fiend list but at the same time the dino-valakut list was posted and i just played that one. I'll definitely try that one out but I've been playing janky combo recently at locals.

I want to try it but playing choke seems like the right kind of fun and I missed it over the last month or so.

Have you worked any more on the dark confidant list or are you pretty comfortable with it currently? It seems to shore up some problem areas but I've grown fond of my rhinos (for better or worse).

[Brael]

Have you worked any more on the dark confidant list or are you pretty comfortable with it currently? It seems to shore up some problem areas but I've grown fond of my rhinos (for better or worse).

There's not really anything else to work on. This school year hasn't shaped up too well for the local legacy scene, and I don't play online. There also hasn't been any new cards that really change things.

The next thing I want to try is the Jund list that I have but I won't have the cards to play that anywhere outside of Xmage (which I don't put much stock in) for a few months still, at best.

[Arianrhod]

https://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2017/11/what-is-nic-fit/

Podcast episode I was invited to be on is up!

[Brael]

https://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2017/11/what-is-nic-fit/

Podcast episode I was invited to be on is up!

I took a listen. I agree with you about Scapeshift (also, tried the build I made... it was horrible, so I need to practice that archetype a bit).

What's the GB Delirium list you talked about?

[rubblekill]

https://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2017/11/what-is-nic-fit/

Podcast episode I was invited to be on is up!

You are a very entertaining guy, and I hope you’ll get invited in more podcasts in the future! [emoji1]
The episode is very in-depth and interesting, good job to you all!

[militiaman89]

Hey guys fetting into Nic Fit and wondered of there was a Facebook page were everyone can share ideas, lists, results etc....

[Brael]

This thread is that place. There's also a subreddit for the deck.

[sdematt]

I think BUG Fit is very unexplored, especially in a traditional shell. Same as Jund Fire is recently unexplored as a strict non-Scapeshift build.

Something like this is definitely possible:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Noble Hierarch
2 DRS
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
2 Leovold
1 Spiritmonger
1 Trygon Predator
1 Carnage Tyrant
15

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Liliana the Last Hope
5

3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
21



2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
21

/////

3 Flusterstorm
2 Tsabo's Web
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Baleful Strix
2 Pithing Needle

And I honestly don't think it would be awful. Your creature threats are worse because Rhino and Sigarda are typically your trumps, but Leo does quite a bit of nonsense on opponents and blasting them with walkers is ridiculous when you're nuking the board with Deeds. Trygon handles having a flyer and destroying stuff if need be, and basically you trade Rhinos for Jaces and such. Your Zeniths are probably worse (but Spiritmonger is a tank, at least, and Carnage Tyrant goes over the top), but it should be able to bridge the gap to landing Jaces.

I posted my thoughts on P. Fire Jund before.

However, I'm going to a tournament in the States in a few weeks, and I needed advice on my list. I heard that the podcast that Kev did the cast was down on Rhino, and I agree with Push in the format, Rhino is worse than it was. So, really, what needs to go in that gap?

I'm thinking of running my Leovold build since it gives you a bit more game against the other blue decks (as well as the mana denial decks, such as DnT and Lands).

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Noble Hierarch
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Ulvenwald Tracker

3 Pernicious Deed
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sylvan Library
1 Painful Truths
1 Mirri's Guile
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant/Garruk Relentless


2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Scrubland
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
22

2 Meddling Mage
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Thoughtseize
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Back to Basics

-----

Noble helps produce blue and push even Vets and other stuff into the red zone a little harder.

Leo, as explained above.

Tracker is there as a concession for the long game. I had great success throwing Wolves at big Knights back in the day; I plan to do that again. Also nice for picking off Deathrites on the other side of the table. If Rhino wasn't here as a slot, not sure what I'd play. Suggestions?

Sideboard-

Gaddock Teeg is obvious use.

Mage does a ton of work. Would love to run 3, but no room.

Back to Basics as the surprise against all the greedy decks and mana denial.

The rest is decently self explanatory.

Let's get me back in the game, boys.

[JackaBo]

I like your bug lists. I believe moving away from strix and running BS as the only filter is right.
Other reasons to dip into blue could be TNN and chart a course

[JackaBo]

I'm planning to run Nyx Fit next legacy night. I run a pretty stock list but 2 mirris main and the deeds+nyx in the board.
My 4 bombs are Dove, Splendor, Death's hold and Sandwurm. Can anyone convice me to play Cruel Reality instead of Sandwurm?

[Ulysse95]

I'm planning to run Nyx Fit next legacy night. I run a pretty stock list but 2 mirris main and the deeds+nyx in the board.
My 4 bombs are Dove, Splendor, Death's hold and Sandwurm. Can anyone convice me to play Cruel Reality instead of Sandwurm?

I prefer Sandwurm over Cruel Reality unless you run Curse of Misfortunes

[Memories of the Time]

I prefer Sandwurm over Cruel Reality unless you run Curse of Misfortunes

Me too, no doubt.

[Plm]

I'm not convinced that either one is necessary. what situation does reality or sandwurm solves that splendor doesn't ? or dove (in the event that you need to kill a jace) ?

I could see cutting an enchantment for a mirri's guile , or one more removal (how many brutality do you play?) the one deed main could be a nice target to tutor for .

[Ulysse95]

I'm not convinced that either one is necessary. what situation does reality or sandwurm solves that splendor doesn't ? or dove (in the event that you need to kill a jace) ?

I could see cutting an enchantment for a mirri's guile , or one more removal (how many brutality do you play?) the one deed main could be a nice target to tutor for .

Amen !

[Brael]

I think BUG Fit is very unexplored, especially in a traditional shell. Same as Jund Fire is recently unexplored as a strict non-Scapeshift build.

I don't think Punishing Fire is good enough right now.

Your BUG list is lacking a lot of interaction. If you want to go low with cards like Leovold you also need to go wide, but you don't have the creature count, card advantage, or appropriate creatures for that. Elder Deep Fiend is pretty solid. Emrakul, the Promised End can probably be built in too... I know Navsi was looking at that, though I like the idea of Walking Ballista as the artifact creature contribution over Baleful Strix.

If you're going to go low, use fewer Deeds and more Deluge, it's more mana efficient and it can actually do something about Emrakul, Griselbrand, and anything Reanimator plays. On that note, I like having an Edict or two myself, I'll play it over Push even. I've never found Push to be all that great in Legacy. Half the stuff is too big for it like Tasigur, Gurmag Angler, or any fatty. I instead prefer Edict which can be used early, but it can also be used against combos. If you want a filtering spell, I would play Ponder over Brainstorm. Generally we want to dig deep and Ponder goes 4 deep while Brainstorm only goes 3. It also gives you a bit more variation in abilities when you also have a Jace down.

On 4c, I'm just not a fan, but I don't think that opinion is a shock to anyone.

[Lueseto]

I can't agree with playing Ponder over Brainstorm, the latter is miles better in almost every context. Card selection is also about getting bad cards out of your hand, but I doubt anyone needs an argument about why Brainstorm is one of the best cards in the format, if not the best.

I do think Spiritmonger isn't strong enough though, and I've also been thinking about tinkering with Emrakul, the Promised End. It feels as the powerful, game ending spell that BUG lists feel to need. Plus the benefits of building into delirium are already there. To the Slaughter and Invasive Surgery already see some play, Iskanah isn't probably needed but could be considered (though I think Thragtusk is often enough and more reliable) and Tooth Collector seems superb against Elves, Taxes, Grixis...

The problem is that we are already kind of handicaped because GSZ shuffles itself and Therapy gets exiled on the flashback, and I don't think we can play Mishra's Bauble like modern delirium decks do. Baleful Strix should be a natural fit here, even if it is regarded as too defensive, I think we can run away with it if playing a game ending spell like Emrakul. Probably would want at least 1 Fierce Empath, and I wouldn't love going over 2 Traverse the Ulvenwald because it's just too many tutors plus it's disgusting early on (I don't think that playing less than 4 GSZ is ideal for the decks plan)

EDIT: Here's a list I came up with yesterday, I've only played it against the wall but it seems to run smoothly. Liliana, the Last Hope seems great in the deck. Being able to +1 on Explorers comes in handy.

[quote]
//19 Land

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea

//17 Creature

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tooth Collector
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Ishkanah, Grafwidow
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Dryad Arbor

//3 Enchantment

3 Pernicious Deed

//7 Instant

1 To the Slaughter
4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay

//2 Planeswalker

2 Liliana, the Last Hope

//12 Sorcery

4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Collective Brutality[\quote]

[militiaman89]

So sandwurm convergence putting in work tonight. First time off of a rector, second time hardcast!! Love this deck!!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171113/7ea86747a3750aacc0242159e6d280ca.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171113/9fd6be2e1015038dcb2949660da3132c.jpg

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[Plm]

And wouldn't splendor won you those games also ? Albeit more slowly I admit.

I'm trimming the rector package in order to fit in the plan B (and also trying to find what is the right plan B).

[Echelon]

Let's get me back in the game, boys.

Glad to see you're on team Rhino :laugh:.

How have you been liking the lone Guile? And having 4 of those effects in general? I'm strongly considering going down to 3 so I can add another land, but I do like my card selection.

As for your SB - no Lost Legacy? It's so good vs. so many decks. I board it in a lot. I got to play some paper MtG yesterday and used it to rid my opponent of Thought-Knot Seers (and in the game before that I took his StP's). Whenever you play it just name whatever card you least want to see and it's gone.

Concerning yesterday's outing: Just when I was about to kick out Meren of Clan Nel Toth she goes and wins me a game or 2 thanks to her broken "draws". Now I still don't know what to do. Goddammit :laugh:. I did like having the second Tireless Tracker over Vizier of the Menagerie. The only thing that did occur to me yesterday is that I might want to cut a card to support a 7th basic (finally bringing me up to 22 land), b/c even when firing on all cylinders (which for me means I have all my basics out) it feels like I'm still just scraping by. Might be just me though - I can cast/do whatever I want once I reach 6 mana so do I really need it? But still.

Edit: Or should I just go to 61 cards, w/ Forest #7 as card 61.

[JackaBo]

Me too, no doubt.

Thanks guys!

[Navsi]

I'm not convinced that either one is necessary. what situation does reality or sandwurm solves that splendor doesn't ? or dove (in the event that you need to kill a jace) ?

Being able to kill a planeswalker on board is pretty important. Fetching Doves when your opponent has a resolved JTMS and you don't is pretty risky, considering that you need other cards in hand to turn into birds and they get to either Fateseal you away from high-cmc cards, or Brainstorm into more doves per turn than you are making yourself.

Cruel Reality and Sandwurm are also actual clocks, which means you can kill your opponent in a reasonable number of turns with them. This is pretty relevant when the deck is generally pretty slow and helps avoid going to time.

[JackaBo]

Being able to kill a planeswalker on board is pretty important. Fetching Doves when your opponent has a resolved JTMS and you don't is pretty risky, considering that you need other cards in hand to turn into birds and they get to either Fateseal you away from high-cmc cards, or Brainstorm into more doves per turn than you are making yourself.

Cruel Reality and Sandwurm are also actual clocks, which means you can kill your opponent in a reasonable number of turns with them. This is pretty relevant when the deck is generally pretty slow and helps avoid going to time.

Yeah I'm not cutting them entirely. Being able to lock opponents out by chaining rectors via leap is nice. But being able to resolve one enchantment that just wins is nice too.

[militiaman89]

Thoughts on Nyx Fit:
So after playing the Nyx Fit version im not in love with how clunky the deck can be. Yes, it does have some incredible draws with chaining rectors. Though in alot of scenarios getting one rector to die didnt mean I won the game which makes me want a omniscience build a bit more.

Thoughts moving toward Sneak Fit:
So after listening to the podcast I started to brew with the sneak lists and wanted to add more consistency which they mentioned was lost when top got bannned. So my thought was to utilize blue (yes I know its a little harder on the manabase) but add in not only brainstorm but dack fayden to filter unwanted sneaks and add in p-fire as a additional engine. Here the list im going to put on mtgo later and give it a shot.

Sidenote: with this you also get to do the whole dack plus leo or dack plus notion thief play. Considering adding a consecrated sphinx also for even more value.

4x veteran explorer
4x cabal therapy
3x punishing fire
3x dack fayden
4x sneak attack (maybe 3)
4x green sun zenith
1x emrakul
1x fierce empath (poss 2)
1x runescarred demon
1x notionthief
2x leovold
4x brainstorm
3x abrupt decay
1x woodland bellower
2x deathrite shaman
1x inferno titan
1x eternal witness
40 cards plus 21 land (61 cards)

Thoughts and additional card selections are always welcome. Im somewhat new to Nic Fit and love to brew. Also my love for german foils apparently is shared within this community from what I hear!

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[pettdan]

@Militiaman89: You should work out the mana base for that list, it will be quite a challenge I believe. I'm guessing you'll have to go without Grove of the Burnwillows because it tends to put a strain on the manabase and you are proposing a 4 color list, something that usually is connected to a very light splash. I don't think Brainstorm is a suitable card for a fourth color in a deck. Anyway, I could be wrong on all those points.. Generally, it's a good idea to try a list before posting it, but of course sometimes we just want to get our ideas out there..

Edit: I won't do a new post but just add some brief comment here. I think the mana base is priority no 1, next thing I notice is that your removal is 3 Punishing Fire and 3 Abrupt Decay (and Sneak Attack + Inferno Titan/Emrakul). I think you would benefit from Pernicious Deed and Toxic Deluge, these are usually needed because Nic Fit plays slower and heavier threats, if you can ramp into a Deed you have basically reset the advantage the opponent had of playing cheaper threats. With zero of these sweepers you may get out-tempod more often, I believe. And 3 Dack Fayden seems like a lot, at least change one of those into a Deed. Others will have more substantial comments I guess, but this is at least something. Good luck and keep us informed on the test results for this interesting list! :)

[militiaman89]

@Militiaman89: You should work out the mana base for that list, it will be quite a challenge I believe. I'm guessing you'll have to go without Grove of the Burnwillows because it tends to put a strain on the manabase and you are proposing a 4 color list, something that usually is connected to a very light splash. I don't think Brainstorm is a suitable card for a fourth color in a deck. Anyway, I could be wrong on all those points.. Generally, it's a good idea to try a list before posting it, but of course sometimes we just want to get our ideas out there..I just wanted to purpose a list so people could give me their ideas of what to add takeout etc... before I tested it as I said im new and love to get the community's feedback and experience.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[Echelon]

I just wanted to purpose a list so people could give me their ideas of what to add takeout etc... before I tested it as I said im new and love to get the community's feedback and experience.

Then try to take pettdan's advice and try to work out the manabase :smile:. No pile works without a stable manabase (save a few exceptions). He says it to help you (and is right in doing so).

For pointers - you're aiming @14 initial mana sources for each colour and you want your manabase to end up at around 22/23 lands. I'm curious to see what you can come up with :smile:.

[JackaBo]

I'm curious what enchantment you fetched that didnt win. Few decks can beat one of Sandwurm or One-sided humility. Fetching Omniscience REALLY dont win the game. Then you need another card (emrakul) to win and then your deck becomes even more clunky.
What i like about nyxfit is that it's a one card combo (+making rector die) that gives you an extremely favourable position. Rather than two card combo that wins on the spot.

[Kobra_D]

[*edit] Halfway through the newest Mengucci video playing BUG fit. He seems much more comfortable with it and it just seems to agree with the fact that NO is a clunky draw in the shell. The BUG shell still seems to not turn a corner as quickly as other variants but that may just be something to consider when building/playing.



(1) Punishing Fire

(2) Emrakul the Promised End

(3) Maindeck Deluge I don't think Punishing Fire is good enough right now.

(4) 4C Fit


(1) I love Punishing X decks in general so I am definitely biased. In the current meta where combo has gone way down PFire might not be so bad. Helps with Czech Pile, helps with D&T, helps with all delver decks. Good be worth considering, although Jund is not my favorite shell at the moment.

(2) Emrakul has never pulled her weight for me. Usually, she doesn't come online early enough to be back breaking. She isn't a bad top end at 13/13 but I would probably just jam Thragtusk, Nissa VF, or something else that comes down sooner.

(3) 1 of Deluge is nice in a lot of places but I've always been a fan of main deck edict effects (and at least 1 to the slaughter somewhere in the 75).

(4) 4C seems to stifle the mana development too much. It might just be how I play but my Nic Fit builds tend to be greedy mana wise and 4C overextends whenever I try it.



(1) Cantrips

(2) Ishkanah/Delirium


(1) I think the real cantrip that should be played in Nic Fit is Perilous Research, but that's just me :D.

(2) I've tried Ishkanah before and had a terrible time. Most of my testing was against D&T but it was not good. Other delirium cards can be good but forcing it with things like bauble don't need to happen imo. If you wanted I would recommend Bitterblossom. Does nicely in grindy match ups.



(1) Guile

(2) 7 Lands.


(1) Guile over sylvan library? I know people argue back and forth over this, but I've always ruled it out because chalice is a thing.

(2) I like the 7th land because it allows me to fetch basics early when I have the opportunity in the blind and still have plenty of basics for vet triggers.

[Echelon]

(1) Guile over sylvan library? I know people argue back and forth over this, but I've always ruled it out because chalice is a thing.

(2) I like the 7th land because it allows me to fetch basics early when I have the opportunity in the blind and still have plenty of basics for vet triggers.

I don't see a lot of Chalice in my meta, so that isn't much of a factor (plus, it's what most people run Abrupt Decay for or what I run Qasali Pridemage for, I'm fine w/ Guile coming down a few turns later). Besides - chances of Guile being stuck behind a T1 Chalice is well <40% when facing Chalice decks (since your opponent won't always be on the play and won't always have a Chalice AND a Sol-land), so that hardly seems like a valid point against Guile.

As for the higher number of basics bit - your reasoning is off. A high number of basics doesn't let you fetch basics, a high number of fetchlands does. Later on, when out of basics, Veteran Explorer basically becomes residual Cabal Therapy fodder or a Guile/Library shuffle effect. This is true whether you run 6 or 7 basics.

[Navsi]

(2) Emrakul has never pulled her weight for me. Usually, she doesn't come online early enough to be back breaking. She isn't a bad top end at 13/13 but I would probably just jam Thragtusk, Nissa VF, or something else that comes down sooner.

I had some success running Emrakul PE in my sideboard as a game ender against midrange/control decks like Miracles, Pile, and the mirror. I was just running Elder Deep-Fiend as a maindeck Empath target, and 0-2 other big monsters like Primeval Titan, a Delve creature, or similar.

[Kobra_D]

I don't see a lot of Chalice in my meta, so that isn't much of a factor (plus, it's what most people run Abrupt Decay for or what I run Qasali Pridemage for, I'm fine w/ Guile coming down a few turns later). Besides - chances of Guile being stuck behind a T1 Chalice is well <40% when facing Chalice decks (since your opponent won't always be on the play and won't always have a Chalice AND a Sol-land), so that hardly seems like a valid point against Guile.

As for the higher number of basics bit - your reasoning is off. A high number of basics doesn't let you fetch basics, a high number of fetchlands does. Later on, when out of basics, Veteran Explorer basically becomes residual Cabal Therapy fodder or a Guile/Library shuffle effect. This is true whether you run 6 or 7 basics.

I starting playing Legacy right before BFZ became a set, so I am arbitrarily influenced by Eldrazi being a menace. You're right, I shouldn't be playing around it as much as I do but it is always a factor that is on my mind.

As for the basics, yes fetch lands are necessary for fetching basics. But with 6 basics, if you fetch 2 you only have 2 vet. triggers. With 7 you get a third. That's all I meant by the matter. You are correct though, in order to do so we also need a lot of fetches to make it run smoothly.


I had some success running Emrakul PE in my sideboard as a game ender against midrange/control decks like Miracles, Pile, and the mirror. I was just running Elder Deep-Fiend as a maindeck Empath target, and 0-2 other big monsters like Primeval Titan, a Delve creature, or similar.

Maybe it was me trying to jam it main deck and finding it poor in some match ups because I definitely sided it out more than I kept it in.

I am looking forward to trying Deep Fiend once I go back to nic fit, I've been on a bit of a combo kick recently.

[Echelon]

I starting playing Legacy right before BFZ became a set, so I am arbitrarily influenced by Eldrazi being a menace. You're right, I shouldn't be playing around it as much as I do but it is always a factor that is on my mind.

As for the basics, yes fetch lands are necessary for fetching basics. But with 6 basics, if you fetch 2 you only have 2 vet. triggers. With 7 you get a third. That's all I meant by the matter. You are correct though, in order to do so we also need a lot of fetches to make it run smoothly.

Maybe it was me trying to jam it main deck and finding it poor in some match ups because I definitely sided it out more than I kept it in.

I am looking forward to trying Deep Fiend once I go back to nic fit, I've been on a bit of a combo kick recently.

Don't forget that resolving Explorer triggers isn't a goal but a means to an end. That end is reaching 6-7 mana. The question you need to ask yourself is what do I need that 7th mana for? B/c if you can't find a reason, you're better off with another real card than another land. A pile of land helps you win games, but will never kill your opponent :wink:.

[Kobra_D]

Don't forget that resolving Explorer triggers isn't a goal but a means to an end. That end is reaching 6-7 mana. The question you need to ask yourself is what do I need that 7th mana for? B/c if you can't find a reason, you're better off with another real card than another land. A pile of land helps you win games, but will never kill your opponent :wink:.

This is true. For fair deck though, if/when games go long, sometimes you get a bad beat and topdeck a vet explorer. Or you have a Meren Trigger on 1 and put Vet into play. Getting the extra incremental value their is just built in now.

I can always use the extra mana after that. 6/7 mana is enough but having 8 lands in play is usable, especially with tracker.

Depends on the build I guess for how much mana you want. I'm still a fan of the 7th basic even if our reasoning to that conclusion differs a bit.

[Echelon]

This is true. For fair deck though, if/when games go long, sometimes you get a bad beat and topdeck a vet explorer. Or you have a Meren Trigger on 1 and put Vet into play. Getting the extra incremental value their is just built in now.

I can always use the extra mana after that. 6/7 mana is enough but having 8 lands in play is usable, especially with tracker.

Depends on the build I guess for how much mana you want. I'm still a fan of the 7th basic even if our reasoning to that conclusion differs a bit.

What value? Another land that does nothing? And 8 mana for clues instead of 6/7 - how relevant is popping 4 clues in a single turn instead of 3? I understand where you're going, but you're just not making a very compelling point. Your points so far are "to make Meren better" (by recurring the same 1/1 she would otherwise) and "so I can crack 4 clues per turn instead of 3".

Not trying to be a dick, by the way. Just trying to hold up a mirror and give some food for thought. I'm sorry if I seem rude.

[Kobra_D]

What value? Another land that does nothing? And 8 mana for clues instead of 6/7 - how relevant is popping 4 clues in a single turn instead of 3? I understand where you're going, but you're just not making a very compelling point.

It's not that I want to crack 3 clues in a turn. I want to crack a clue and play the 4 drop that I draw off the clue. And activate Ooze/DRS. And maybe a volrath's stronghold for good measure.

I'm not arguing that any of this is necessary. On the contrary this is the magical christmas land scenario nic fit seems to have an unfair reputation for. But it's there.

Also, upon reevaluating my position on the matter I do realize that in playing rhino fit I have been had a lot of situations where I have a Meren, a Vet, and a Tower and then easily get an arbitrary number of vet triggers.

[Echelon]

For some reason I always face Karakas/Fatal Push/StP/DRS/Wasteland to mess with that party. My regular sparring buddy pilots Grixis Delver and D&T :laugh:, the asshole.

You lucky bastard!

Besides, even with a heap of basics you still just draw 1 card per turn. Be careful w/ the magical christmas land-ing, it hardly ever leads to any good.

[ObligatoryReference]

I'm curious what enchantment you fetched that didnt win. Few decks can beat one of Sandwurm or One-sided humility. Fetching Omniscience REALLY dont win the game. Then you need another card (emrakul) to win and then your deck becomes even more clunky.
What i like about nyxfit is that it's a one card combo (+making rector die) that gives you an extremely favourable position. Rather than two card combo that wins on the spot.

I've lost to a couple different BUG/Shardless lists when I had only one enchantment out. Overwhelming Splendor doesn't automatically beat JTMS, for example, and they can throw enough creatures in front of your wurms (including big Tarmogoyfs) to drain you out with DRS, especially if you got slowed down with hand disruption early. I'm not saying you're not favored, just that it does happen.

[Navsi]

I've lost to a couple different BUG/Shardless lists when I had only one enchantment out. Overwhelming Splendor doesn't automatically beat JTMS, for example, and they can throw enough creatures in front of your wurms (including big Tarmogoyfs) to drain you out with DRS, especially if you got slowed down with hand disruption early. I'm not saying you're not favored, just that it does happen.

Against BUG I'd probably be fetching Cruel Reality first, to be honest. They pretty much just lose to that card, even with Jaces. If you have Rector in hand / available to follow up with, Dovescape is also an option. I'd only fetch splendor if my opponent had a major board presence which needed to be dealt with immediately.

[ObligatoryReference]

Against BUG I'd probably be fetching Cruel Reality first, to be honest. They pretty much just lose to that card, even with Jaces. If you have Rector in hand / available to follow up with, Dovescape is also an option. I'd only fetch splendor if my opponent had a major board presence which needed to be dealt with immediately.

This is when I wasn't playing Cruel Reality (and is my argument for having it in the 75, even if it goes in the sideboard). I was mostly pointing at the fact that decks that can generate tons of card advantage (like BUG Delver/Shardless/Czech Pile) won't necessarily fold to the first enchantment you get out.

[MDHackbert]

I saw a guy streaming a nutty 4-color list. He was 2-1 as i post this. He is not archiving VODs so hopefully he comments here or streams again: https://www.twitch.tv/jmilia

Deck: Punishing-Thieves-Sneak-Fit

Counts : 61 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:14
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Notion Thief
1 Inferno Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Rune-Scarred Demon
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Spells:26
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
3 Dack Fayden
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Sneak Attack

Lands:21
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volcanic Island
3 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:15
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Flusterstorm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Golgari Charm
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 To the Slaughter
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Slaughter Games
1 Nissa, Vital Force

[Echelon]

It's militiaman89. He posted the list a page back. What program is he playing on? XMage? MtG: Online?

Looks like he took pettdan's advice and worked out the manabase. I think it's way too greedy though. He might have to go up to 23 land and add an Underground Sea and/or fetchland or 2 to up the non-green count (specifically blue and black are troublingly low). It's just waiting for variance to kick in or a Wasteland/Stifle to blow you out of the water.

[militiaman89]

Hey guys, I was the one running the 4 color Sneak Fit deck yesterday on stream. It was a blast to play and the manabase seemed to work for the most part but the blue splash never felt needed, though I might try out the new Nissa planeswalker (UGx) one when I get a chance. Other then that, one of the guys here gave me their current jund sneak list and ill be running that on stream next. Next day I have off is friday to stream Ill throw it in chat when im up an running. Im very new to streaming is their a way I can save the videos for yous to watch?

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[caseyc]

Hi All,

I just put together my first real Nic Fit deck a couple weeks ago and have been testing it. (I previously tried a Fruity Pebbles Nic Fit combo deck without much success, though it was hilarious). It's a BUG build. My goal is to create a consistent shell (using cantrips) with a powerful engine--and then fun, badass cards that come along with the Nic Fit archetype. The engine is any combination of Gitrog, Titania, and Ramunap Excavator. Also, I want the main deck to crush fair matchups (most of the field is fair right now)--and my SB to be solid in games 2 and 3 versus combo. Below is my list:

Lands (21):
2x Bayou
1x Underground Sea
1x Tropical Island
1x Savannah
1x Wasteland
2x Island
2x Forest
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Dryad Arbor

Spells (39):
3x Veteran Explorer
4x Cabal Therapy
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Snapcaster Mage
1x Eternal Witness
1x Ramunap Excavator
1x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1x Meren of Clan Nel-toth
1x Titania, Protector of Argoth
1x The Gitrog Monster
1x Carnage Tyrant
1x Pernicious Deed
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Fatal Push
1x Go For The Throat
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Baleful Strix
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Garruk Relentless

SB (15):
2x Flusterstorm
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Thoughtseize
2x Diabolic Edict
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Arcane Laboratory
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Lost Legacy
1x Golgari Charm

I'm very open to thoughts, questions, and feedback on the build. Thanks :-)

[Arianrhod]

<snip>

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Noble Hierarch
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Ulvenwald Tracker

3 Pernicious Deed
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sylvan Library
1 Painful Truths
1 Mirri's Guile
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant/Garruk Relentless

2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Scrubland
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
22

2 Meddling Mage
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Thoughtseize
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Back to Basics

<snip>

Let's get me back in the game, boys.

The best Rhino ever was, in my opinion, was the Red Rhino lists with Price of Progress and/or Blood Moon. Rhino needs to occupy a tempo space if it's going to work, in my opinion (disrupt them, then kill them) -- it's fundamentally, philosophically, a different style than most Nic Fit decks occupy. It flat out doesn't have the same tools to be inexorable, it needs to kill the opponent.

The trick is that Nic Fit can be a bit more resilient than most tempo decks. We can run E.Wit and Meren, or Nightmare -- if they kill our Rhino, we get back and tag them again. We can run aggressive walkers to pressure from different angles. I think you're spot on with Garruk Relentless - I ran him in my sideboard in Delirium at mythic (and again at my locals, the next day) this last weekend, and he overperformed for me. Meta definitely feels good for him.

I'll also note quick that Lands isn't a mana denial deck vs us, they're a combo deck. You don't fear the control/prison side of their deck, you fear the turn 2 20/20 flyer.

Some quick hits:

-) Ulvenwald Tracker is likely too slow to be relevant, and also super fragile. People are playing Forked Bolt again, let's not walk into it.
-) If you want the extra accel and insist on Hierarch, I'd 3-1 Hierarch vs DRS. I still say we're not well positioned to be a Deathrite deck, and while it can be an okay Zenith bullet, I don't like running multiples -- he's better to grab post-Deed or some such...but even then, Ooze is usually better. I'll note that I don't like Hierarch in our Deed deck, but I can appreciate the desire for extra mana sources.
-) Sigarda isn't good enough anymore. If you really want to make Sigarda work, you likely need a pair of Relentless and probably some Collective Brutalities. You really need ways to pick of Strixes while generating value. There's a million Strixes atm, and half of them or more are recursive thanks to Kommand. Ooze can help with this, but in my experience, Ooze doesn't have a high life expectancy vs Czech.
-) 22 lands seems a hair high since your curve is lower. I also think you need a basic Island to support the Leos and sideboard cards -- especially with Back to Basic (which I think is an awful idea, but if you want to try it, go for it I guess).
-) No Tireless Trackers seems really odd to me. Tracker seems like a natural fit for this deck, especially with the mana dorks to accel into him on turn 2 and then play a land for immediate value.
-) I despise Gaddock Teeg, but I know you have a higher opinion of him than I do, so, w/e. I had to at least say it.
-) Lands is going to be a straight up nightmare for you with this deck, I think. You have no ways of dealing with Merit Lage currently -- Back to Basics won't stop them from just loaming and playing lands untapped, and once a 20/20 happens, you have no Edicts or Celestial Purges to get rid of it.
-) Seriously, consider Celestial Purge as a 1- or 2- of. It overperforms every time I run a white list. Card is flat amazing.
-) Nissa, Vital Force is an absolute house at the moment. The meta makes her incredibly well positioned currently -- 0 in the 76 is a big mistake, in my opinion.

My strongest recommendation would be to just scrap the blue and replace it with red. Run like a pair of PoPs main, maybe an extra in the board with a couple Moons, and just dunk people. Run Rhinos and Trackers as the core of your creature suite, possibly a pair of Sin Prodders to complement and ramp up the pressure a little. I'd also run a Regisaur at the 5-spot for more pressure and more planeswalker hate.

Here's something approximating what I would recommend for if you want to Rhino people:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer // 1 Scavenging Ooze (either is fine here)
1 Eternal Witness
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Sin Prodder
4 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Regisaur Alpha

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Painful Truths

3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Price of Progress

2 Nissa, Vital Force

2 Sylvan Library
3 Pernicious Deed

2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Phyrexian Tower

sb::
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Blood Moon
1 Celestial Purge
1 Price of Progress
2 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Sanctum Prelate

Hope that gives some ideas, sorry that it took me a couple days to get to this.

[Ulysse95]

I saw a guy streaming a nutty 4-color list. He was 2-1 as i post this. He is not archiving VODs so hopefully he comments here or streams again: https://www.twitch.tv/jmilia

Deck: Punishing-Thieves-Sneak-Fit



Can't see the video on the link :/

[MDHackbert]

Can't see the video on the link :/

He does not have "archive broadcasts" checked, so there are no VODs. For schedule of future streams from him, see the post above by militiaman89.

[Plm]

Hey guys, I have a question : When do you side out explorer ? (as in side out 3 or 4 of them)

My first answer would be against decks that profit more from the basics dora would fetchs. But apart miracle what deck are those ?

Decks with "basics inside" : miracle, D&T, elves!, goblin (ok that's just PTST talking), burn, pox, merfolk.

Of those I side out Dora vs miracle and burn (and would side it out vs gob if I play against them anytime soon), I keep him in vs D&T to fight their mana denial and vs elves! because they play 1 forest and I play 4 path, 4 explorer and a ghost quarter (and I need the acceleration in order to compete because no matter what they will have too much mana). Undecided VS merfolk cause I hadn't seen them in ages.

I would like to hear what you guys think about that, and what variant are you playing (because it impact the decision )

@ arianrhod : I listened to "leaving a legacy" and it was great to hear someone talking about nic fit and not telling bullshit :smile: also you got the episode with TOOL as end music, so that's the best way to close two hour of nic fitting:cool:

[Bobmans]

Hey guys, I have a question : When do you side out explorer ? (as in side out 3 or 4 of them)

My first answer would be against decks that profit more from the basics dora would fetchs. But apart miracle what deck are those ?

Decks with "basics inside" : miracle, D&T, elves!, goblin (ok that's just PTST talking), burn, pox, merfolk.

Of those I side out Dora vs miracle and burn (and would side it out vs gob if I play against them anytime soon), I keep him in vs D&T to fight their mana denial and vs elves! because they play 1 forest and I play 4 path, 4 explorer and a ghost quarter (and I need the acceleration in order to compete because no matter what they will have too much mana). Undecided VS merfolk cause I hadn't seen them in ages.

I would like to hear what you guys think about that, and what variant are you playing (because it impact the decision )

@ arianrhod : I listened to "leaving a legacy" and it was great to hear someone talking about nic fit and not telling bullshit :smile: also you got the episode with TOOL as end music, so that's the best way to close two hour of nic fitting:cool:


Mostly i side out Veteran Explorer vs Miracles and any blue based combo deck (Reanimator/storm/Sneak). Other decks i mostly don't care if i share basics, since Deed cleans up anyway or i get something bigger/better. It might be ok to resolve Veteran trigger VS burn, since they can dry up fast on their hand. Vs burn the best thing is still to get any/every lifegain you have out fast. mostly if your able to get 4+ lifegain and keep pressure up your probably ok in most scenario's. Calling good Cabal Therapies also is important here.

Currently i am pulling Jund PFire control out of the dust. The Rector build is nice and pretty streamlined, it is a bit to linear to my taste. And Scapewish costing me a playset of Taiga and Badlands is currently not within budget. While i believe that Junk (not Rhino per se) is more generic and safer in general, is still just prefer to jam PFire and Lilliana instead. SO:


4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
1 Regisaur Alpha
1 Carnage Tyrant

4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Punishing Fire
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Kolaghan's Command

3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands

Sideboard
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
2 Blood Moon
2 Slaughter Games
1 Pithing Needle
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Reclamation Sage

[JackaBo]

Played Wurmmachine to 3-1 at the LGS today. Lost horribly to elves, won versus stoneblade, grixis control and the rock.
Maindeck mirri felt very good. Splendor is a super good follow up to convergence.

[Brael]

It might be ok to resolve Veteran trigger VS burn, since they can dry up fast on their hand. Vs burn the best thing is still to get any/every lifegain you have out fast. mostly if your able to get 4+ lifegain and keep pressure up your probably ok in most scenario's. Calling good Cabal Therapies also is important here.

A resolved trigger vs Burn is very bad. Their goal is to survive long enough to spend between 5 and 7 mana, then you die. A trigger on your turn is 2 if they have instants, then they untap and get another 2. Veteran alone is almost guaranteed lethal for them, resolving it will cost you up to 10 life.

[Arianrhod]

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Sin Prodder
1 Fierce Empath
1 Eternal Witness
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Regisaur Alpha
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Primeval Titan
1 Inferno Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Abrupt Decay

2 Nissa, Vital Force

2 Sylvan Library
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sneak Attack

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

sb::
2 Blood Moon
2 Fatal Push
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Golgari Charm
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Slaughter Games
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Diabolic Edict

This is where I'm at for sneak at the moment, if anyone is interested.

[Namtar]

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer // 1 Scavenging Ooze (either is fine here)
1 Eternal Witness
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Sin Prodder
4 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Regisaur Alpha

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Painful Truths

3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Price of Progress

2 Nissa, Vital Force

2 Sylvan Library
3 Pernicious Deed

2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Phyrexian Tower

sb::
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Blood Moon
1 Celestial Purge
1 Price of Progress
2 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Sanctum Prelate


Been playing Rhino Fit with a red splash for a couple weeks now because I face Lands a lot at my LGS. One card that has been surprising me is Saskia the Unyielding . Her clock is great and trample synergizes nicely on rhino and carnage tyrant.

[pettdan]

Here is a quick write-up on the phone, pardon any inadequacies! I pulled out my old Sneak Fit list last night and got a bit sentimental when removing the Tops.

I went 3-1 in the local weekly with militiaman89's Sneak Fit, see link below. It was so much fun watching the stream, had to try it and had a blast. I was worrying a bit about playing against lands, turbo depths, storm and to some degree elves and Stifles, made a few tweaks to the list based on that but not much/enough. However you can always ramp into Sneak + Emrakul which was my plan vs Depths + Stage. The sideboard was in my view over-prepared for graveyard strategies, I think Leyline otV at two copies hedges enough vs Dredge and Reanimator that room can be made for fast combo, so I added Mindbreak Traps that work with Leovold and help vs Belcher, Storm Reanimator, Food Chain, Omnisneak and can be hardcast too.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31293-Primer-Nic-Fit&p=1030036&viewfull=1#post1030036

Quick changes to the sideboard:
-3 Faerie Macabre
-1 Carpet of Flowers (getting another, probably needed vs Stifle decks)
+2 Leyline of the Void
+2 Mindbreak Trap
-2 Flusterstorm (getting again after reprint)
+2 Invasive Surgery (better vs Elves and with Surgical, Lost Legacy and Slaughter Games the extraction effects are a serious threat vs any combo deck)


Regarding the mana base, I didn't play vs any mana denial decks but I had trouble with Wooded Foothills not fetching Underground Sea twice. Will change them into Verdant Catacombs and something.

R1: 2-0 vs TES. Some luck involved, but having a hymn-machine in the maindeck helps (Dack+Leovold). Won g2 with Lost Legacy + Slaughter Games taking all wincons. He misplayed but not clear if it mattered.

R2: 1-0 vs Esper Thopter Foundry Stoneblade. Super grindy game, I keep stealing Thopter Foundries with Dacks and he sacrifices in response [edit: and replayed using Academy Ruins]. I assemble Sneak+Emrakul around t15 (took a long time) and think I end up sneaking Emrakul 3 times during the game!!! Thopter tokens and a few lands sacrificed every time. He has Jace active for 6-7 turns, eventually Inferno Titan with a stolen Jitte win during time. Take him down from 49 lifepoints due to Batterskull and Foundry.

R3: 1-2 vs Elves.
I win g1 thanks to 2 P.Fire, Decay, Therapy taking Order+Glimpse and ramping into Sneak + Emrakul. G2 and g3 are won by his Nissa Vital Force. I mulled both games, to 5 in g3 and died to Nissa + Craterhoof with a Deluge on top.

R4: Big Eldrazi 2-0
Last week he 3-0'ed me (took an extra game to see if I had any chance) when I played Grixis Painter which couldn't interact with the multitude of ramping mana artifacts. This list is superb at handling artifacts thanks to 3 Dack, 3 Decay and 2 Deed in the main, and clearing the board with sneaked Emrakul. I feel like the Kolaghan's Command in the board is overkill,perhaps Reclamation Sage should be skipped too freeing up two very valuable sideboard slots.

Having Dack in the list felt great. Weapon vs combo when coupled with Leovold, weapon vs Stoneblade, great strix-stealer, weapon vs MUD etc.. And digs very efficiently for the combo. And card advantage engine with Punishing Fires.

[Echelon]

The best Rhino ever was, in my opinion, was the Red Rhino lists with Price of Progress and/or Blood Moon. Rhino needs to occupy a tempo space if it's going to work, in my opinion (disrupt them, then kill them) -- it's fundamentally, philosophically, a different style than most Nic Fit decks occupy. It flat out doesn't have the same tools to be inexorable, it needs to kill the opponent.

The trick is that Nic Fit can be a bit more resilient than most tempo decks. We can run E.Wit and Meren, or Nightmare -- if they kill our Rhino, we get back and tag them again. We can run aggressive walkers to pressure from different angles. I think you're spot on with Garruk Relentless - I ran him in my sideboard in Delirium at mythic (and again at my locals, the next day) this last weekend, and he overperformed for me. Meta definitely feels good for him.

Thank you for that piece of wisdom. I agree wholeheartedly! The playstyle (and appropriate sideboarding) really improves your anyDelver MU (which is where you feel the power creep the most, in my opinion. Where first you could bust straight through them now you actually have to work for it. Especially vs. Grixis). Resilience also comes in the form of simply running 4 Rhinos (which means you basically run 8, when you count your GSZ's). Even if your opponent answers the first (and/or second), you will find a third one relatively quickly. On a sidenote - I do feel that in order to properly emulate the tempo playstyle, card selection (and having a good chunk of it) is a must. It's why tempo decks can be a thing in the first place. It's also what gives Junk Fit the lategame resilience it needs.


Hey guys, I have a question : When do you side out explorer ? (as in side out 3 or 4 of them)

My first answer would be against decks that profit more from the basics dora would fetchs. But apart miracle what deck are those ?

Decks with "basics inside" : miracle, D&T, elves!, goblin (ok that's just PTST talking), burn, pox, merfolk.

Of those I side out Dora vs miracle and burn (and would side it out vs gob if I play against them anytime soon), I keep him in vs D&T to fight their mana denial and vs elves! because they play 1 forest and I play 4 path, 4 explorer and a ghost quarter (and I need the acceleration in order to compete because no matter what they will have too much mana). Undecided VS merfolk cause I hadn't seen them in ages.

I would like to hear what you guys think about that, and what variant are you playing (because it impact the decision )

To start this off - when I board out Explorers, I tend to either board out 1 or 3, depending on the MU. Never 4. Simply b/c cornercases are a thing in a GSZ deck.

I board out 1 when facing D&T - they're relatively slow and have their own basics, so there's less need to be explosive. We're perfectly capable of going toe to toe and then over them. I also board out 2 DRS vs. D&T. Paradoxically, they can have a very hard time dealing with an early Siege Rhino. But that's what GSZ -> Dryad Arbor is for, I suppose.

I board out 3 when facing:
- Sneak & Show
- ANT/TES
- Miracles
- Reanimator (regular or Burning)
- Burn
- Elves!

I don't board out any when facing Pox or Merfolk. Pox is just laughably bad vs. (at least Junk) Fit and for Merfolk you have your sweepers. Same goes for Goblins, by the way. In case of Merfolk and Goblins - I tend to keep my Explorers around as blockers when facing them. Lure them into overextending so you can whipe the board on your turn :laugh:.


A resolved trigger vs Burn is very bad. Their goal is to survive long enough to spend between 5 and 7 mana, then you die. A trigger on your turn is 2 if they have instants, then they untap and get another 2. Veteran alone is almost guaranteed lethal for them, resolving it will cost you up to 10 life.

There are some cornercases where you snag some good stuff out of their hand w/ your discard beforehand, but yes.

[JackaBo]

@pettdan it looked like a blast to play. Everything i've played dack i've been happy with all his abilities. I also believe that combodecks have more to gain from cantrips than midrange decks: if your plan is to land big green creatures then gsz is awesome, if your plan is to resolve sneak attack then brainstorm is awesome.

[Plm]

@ echelon : I would be curious to hear your reasoning behind the siding out vs elves! I don't do it but I play path so their lone forest is gonna be fetch anyway. Also I need the acceleration if I want to kill all those elves on sight and still make some plays.

@ greed sneak fit : so much greed and yet it looks so fun :laugh:

[Echelon]

@ echelon : I would be curious to hear your reasoning behind the siding out vs elves! I don't do it but I play path so their lone forest is gonna be fetch anyway. Also I need the acceleration if I want to kill all those elves on sight and still make some plays.

@ greed sneak fit : so much greed and yet it looks so fun :laugh:

Natural Order is a card. Vs. Elves! I tend to take the tempo path Arianrhod describes. I board in extra discard, Golgari Charms, Ethersworn Canonists, Gaddock Teeg, Surgical Extractions and Lost Legacies (13 cards. The only cards I don't board in are the 2 Pithing Needles. And I'm seriously contemplating if I should. Shutting down Wirewood Symbiote/Quirion Ranger can be pretty damn good.). In order for the SB plan to work (i.e. be fast enough) I have to be very careful w/ giving them more mana than necessary, hence the boarding out 3 Veteran Explorers. And I have to make a LOT of room :laugh:. I run a full set of PtE's, by the way.

[Matsu]

Guys, any suggestion how to win against Azcanta Miracles?
I keep losing to this deck, my record is 0-9.
Looks like it is not a very good match up for us.

[Echelon]

Guys, any suggestion how to win against Azcanta Miracles?
I keep losing to this deck, my record is 0-9.
Looks like it is not a very good match up for us.

Could you share your list so we know what we're working with?

[Whitefaces]

Vs. Elves!... Surgical Extractions and Lost Legacies (13 cards)

What are you looking to extract with these? Seems really loose to bring them in vs a deck that doesn't use the GY much and attacks from multiple angles.

[Matsu]

Could you share your list so we know what we're working with?

Deck list:

Lands:
Phyrexian tower
Dryad arbor
Treetop village
2 Bayou
2 savannah
Scrubland
2 forest
2 swamp
2 plains
4 windswept heath
4 wooded foothills --> I forgot I lend my catacombs to a friend

Spells:
4 cabal therapy
4 green’s sun zenith
4 Path to exile
3 Abrupt decay
Vindicate
Toxic deluge
2 pernicious deed
Sylvan library
To the slaughter

Creatures:
4 veteran explorer
2 deathrite shaman
Exemplar of strength
Scavenging ooze
Eternal witness
Tireless tracker
2 siege rhino
Thragtusk
Sigarda, host of herons
Dragonlord dromoka

Walkers:
Nissa, vital force
Elspeth, sun’s champion

Side:
2 choke
Gaddock teeg
Reclamation sage
Pithing needle
Pernicious deed
Engineered plague
Kambal, Consul of Allocation
Golgari charm
Extirpate
Surgical extraction
2 faerie macabre
2 duress


Just a Classic Nic Fit list. My other match ups are fine, I keep losing to Azcanta Miracles.

I need some advice, I would like to stay with this list at the moment, it worked pretty well for me in the past.

[Echelon]

To be honest, I had to look up what an Azcanta Miracles list looked like.

To keep it short and simple: If UW is back on the 4 Terminus plan you're basically fucked.

I strongly recommend you play at least 3 Lost Legacy in your sideboard. This'll allow you to strip away problem cards like there's no tomorrow.

As for your list in general - it's incredibly top heavy (5 cards @ >= 5 CMC). I'd cut a bunch of the fat for a couple of 4 CMC combat walkers. That's probably the best way to go if you expect to face a lot of Termini(?). And cut the Exemplar of Strength. It dies to a lot of removal, sets you up for a 1-for-2 (which sucks ass) and does nothing extra to mess with your opponents plans. It's not worth it. I'd replace it with a Qasali Pridemage. That's a nice utility card that does a lot of work in certain MUs.

[Arianrhod]

Deck list:

Lands:
Phyrexian tower
Dryad arbor
Treetop village
2 Bayou
2 savannah
Scrubland
2 forest
2 swamp
2 plains
4 windswept heath
4 wooded foothills --> I forgot I lend my catacombs to a friend

Spells:
4 cabal therapy
4 green’s sun zenith
4 Path to exile
3 Abrupt decay
Vindicate
Toxic deluge
2 pernicious deed
Sylvan library

Creatures:
4 veteran explorer
2 deathrite shaman
Exemplar of strength
Scavenging ooze
Eternal witness
Tireless tracker
2 siege rhino
Thragtusk
Sigarda, host of herons
Dragonlord dromoka

Walkers:
Nissa, vital force
Elspeth, sun’s champion

Side:
2 choke
Gaddock teeg
Reclamation sage
Pithing needle
Pernicious deed
Engineered plague
Kambal, Consul of Allocation
Golgari charm
Extirpate
Surgical extraction
2 faerie macabre
2 duress


Just a Classic Nic Fit list. My other match ups are fine, I keep losing to Azcanta Miracles.

I need some advice, I would like to stay with this list at the moment, it worked pretty well for me in the past.

It's a classic Rhino list. Heap of removal, forced into a beatdown plan, 1 library. You have exactly 3 cards in your maindeck that Miracles gives a shit about: Library, Nissa, and Elspeth. Your version is just very ill-suited to the matchup -- you're either going to need to rework your list or dedicate your board, which is going to cost you elsewhere.

[Echelon]

It's a classic Rhino list. Heap of removal, forced into a beatdown plan, 1 library. You have exactly 3 cards in your maindeck that Miracles gives a shit about: Library, Nissa, and Elspeth. Your version is just very ill-suited to the matchup -- you're either going to need to rework your list or dedicate your board, which is going to cost you elsewhere.

And therein Libary is only relevant in the sense that it helps you find Nissa/Elspeth/later sideboard cards. Postboard it helps you dodge Jace's Fateseal ability.

@Arianrhod: The only things that are really problematic at this point are Terminus and Jace. Lost Legacy is a nice multi-tool in that regard, as it's also very useful in other bad MUs. I don't think that the sacrifice you have to make as far as your sideboard is concerned is that big w/ the new Miracles list - you mostly still want to focus on a problematic instant (OK, and a planeswalker, but without Terminus to clear away any creature that might actually be beatable, especially if you run a bunch of Guiles/Libraries that let you ignore his Fateseal ability).

[Amulet of the HangingLamp]

I have been playtesting the Junk splashing Red list that Arianrhod suggested with a few minor changes:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
3 Tireless Tracker
4 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Regisaur Alpha

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Painful Truths
1 Toxic Deluge

3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Price of Progress

1 Nissa, Vital Force

2 Sylvan Library
2 Pernicious Deed

2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Celestial Purge
1 Price of Progress
2 Blood Moon
2 Slaughter Games

I've played against Sin Prodder before and it never impressed me. I'd rather have another Tireless Tracker in that slot.

Also Slaughter Games or Lost Legacy?

[Ulysse95]

It's a classic Rhino list. Heap of removal, forced into a beatdown plan, 1 library. You have exactly 3 cards in your maindeck that Miracles gives a shit about: Library, Nissa, and Elspeth. Your version is just very ill-suited to the matchup -- you're either going to need to rework your list or dedicate your board, which is going to cost you elsewhere.

I would add treetop and thragtusk in the suit of good cards in this match up.

For me, a good way to improve your match up is to add a light crop rotation package. Including the two towers and karakas, you can get at least 1 less path.

[Matsu]

@Echelon

Yep 4 Terminus, 3 Jace and 2/3 Azcanta.
These are the biggest issues.
Having a free impulse every turn is extremely good.

I was testing a higher curve and it is working at the moment in my metagame.
Exemplar of strength is here for tests, does his job, great when you want to ramp fast (2x GSZ, Vet+GSZ, Exemplar +GSZ, etc...). It could become Qasali pridemage/Ooze/Sylvan library or Hapatra for fun.
Elspeth can become Garruk if you are afraid of a higher curve. I keep Dragonlord Dromoka, he is good at killing Blade deck there are 4 in my metagame.

It depends on the flavor.

@Arianrhod

There is a small problem with sylvan library and PW. I do not have a proper deck list.
But 3/4 Unexpectedly Absent with StP is super annoying. Yesterday I played Nissa /Sylvan Library to gain advantage -> Yippie, resolve, so happy. Then he goes Unexpectedly Absent + Predict my library -> profit. Yep with your fetch/Vet/GSZ, bye bye silver bullets and with impulse every turn, Snapmage for free FoW, Jace is just the cream of the crop, so I do not even mention it. I just cannot pass it. After those one sided games. My friend moved to Grixis Delver so I can have some fun and play proper magic.

Maybe I do not play the deck properly (I played it when Survival was legal and came back to mtg after 10 hiatus),so I am playing it for more then a year now, but Miracles is definitely my ultimate Nemesis.

Any advice will be helpful.

@Ulysse95

Treetop Village is excellent I will play a copy whenever I can.
I am not a big fun of Crop Rotation. I think we do not have lands that change the board state to play crop. Of course Karakas is amazing, even fetching for Treetop will be great, but I would prefer to play Living Wish with silver bullets on the side or Sylvan scrying to keep the ramp. At the end we want those big guys in the board.

[MrIggins]

Also Slaughter Games or Lost Legacy?

Lost Legacy is way better in the unfair matchups in general but Slaughter Games is especially effective against Sneak/Show and can be useful if there's a Miracles presence in your metagame. In the blind I'd probably split them 2 LL/1 SG but that particular split is a meta choice.

[TURBODERP]

Lost Legacy is way better in the unfair matchups in general but Slaughter Games is especially effective against Sneak/Show and can be useful if there's a Miracles presence in your metagame. In the blind I'd probably split them 2 LL/1 SG but that particular split is a meta choice.


Against Sneak/Show, what would you name with either LL or SG, assuming you don't have both in hand so you can't just name Show and Tell in addition to Sneak Attack? Sorry, am still pretty new to legacy, and playing against Sneak and Show feels like "please don't have both ways to get Emrakul/Griselfatty onto the board."

[MrIggins]

Against Sneak/Show, what would you name with either LL or SG, assuming you don't have both in hand so you can't just name Show and Tell in addition to Sneak Attack? Sorry, am still pretty new to legacy, and playing against Sneak and Show feels like "please don't have both ways to get Emrakul/Griselfatty onto the board."

Typically, you'll want to go after either their monsters or their enablers exclusively, and that depends on what you have/what you know they have. If you know from a discard spell that they have a handful of monsters but need an enabler, you take their Sneak Attacks. If they have Sneak but no monster, you take their Emrakuls. Griselbrand in play/snuck in is tough but sometimes beatable, Emrakul generally is not beatable except in specific cases like Wish->Innocent Blood. If you have no info and are somehow resolving a t2/t3 Lost Legacy without seeing their hand, you name Show and Tell first, because you don't want to name a monster and get Omni'd if they're playing that. From there you have more info and can plan accordingly. My blind Therapy name is usually Show for that reason.

Don't forget the trick of: You Therapy, they Brainstorm, you Surgical them to shuffle and see their hand before Therapy resolves. Can easily help you resolve one of these effects with full information.

If you get to resolve a second copy, you will usually want to take the other piece. So if you've taken their Sneaks, you take their Shows and they can't kill you. If you've taken Emrakuls and you take their Griselbrands, likewise. If you learn they are also on Omni, ideally you leave them with Gris+Sneak (after taking Show+Emmy) as their action because that is beatable, especially if you can pressure their life total ahead of time.

Hope this helps some. It really comes to getting a sense of what they can find to kill you, and making that as difficult for them TO have as you can.

[Brael]

Against Sneak/Show, what would you name with either LL or SG, assuming you don't have both in hand so you can't just name Show and Tell in addition to Sneak Attack? Sorry, am still pretty new to legacy, and playing against Sneak and Show feels like "please don't have both ways to get Emrakul/Griselfatty onto the board."

It depends entirely on your hand. If you can answer Griselbrand for example, then naming Emrakul might not be a bad choice. The same holds true if you can answer Emrakul but not Griselbrand. If you can't or don't want to answer either, then you would probably prefer to take Show and Tell as surviving a turn from either creature normally is doable.

[Echelon]

@Matsu: Sigarda is probably better at killing Blade decks b/c she can't be answered by StP, so that's a poor reason to keep Dromoka. Dromoka is just ridiculously big and therefor hard to deal with for mostly any deck (most importantly non-white!), that's all.

[Matsu]

@Matsu: Sigarda is probably better at killing Blade decks b/c she can't be answered by StP, so that's a poor reason to keep Dromoka. Dromoka is just ridiculously big and therefor hard to deal with for mostly any deck (most importantly non-white!), that's all.

I disagree, Sigarda cannot be answered by StP that is true. But she cannot block a creature with Batterskull attached and you still have to pass through counter spells. Dromoka can easily block equipped creatures and pass through counter spells. Most of the blade decks try to gain advantage at the beginning of the game and use StP to remove your Deathrite/veteran expolorer. Most of the time they have to dig for a StP. It takes approx 2/3 turn til they find and answer for Dromoka, this give you enough time to reset the board or play more creatures because their counter spells are useless from this point. From my experience Dromoka is better in this match up, if they are not on Black you can easily go Dromoka, then Sigarda and finish the game.

It is great when they go Toxic for 7 and you just play Siege Rhino :laugh:

[Echelon]

Meh, anyBlade is a fine MU without Dromoka. As for Batterskull, that's why I run a MD QPM. Works just fine. No need for Dromoka in the slightest.

[Mr_WZRD]

Has anyone tried brewing with Nahiri, the Harbinger? I played Sneak Fit a little, but without Sensei's Divining Top, the deck felt too inconsistent for my tastes. Redundant Sneak Attacks were horrendous draws and the interactive elements of a straight Jund deck without Punishing Fire felt insufficient. I feel like adding a white splash for Nahiri can fix some of these issues. We're already playing the Emrakul to fetch with her ultimate. Her card selection ability allows us to pitch Sneak Attacks when they're bad. Her removal ability can answer hard to answer threats like Gurmag Angler or Mirran Crusader. The white splash also gives us access to a few powerful sideboard options and the ability to play Path to Exile, either main or sideboard. People can make the red splash in Junk Rhino lists work, so I figure we can do the same for a white splash in Jund.

[Bobmans]

Has anyone tried brewing with Nahiri, the Harbinger? I played Sneak Fit a little, but without Sensei's Divining Top, the deck felt too inconsistent for my tastes. Redundant Sneak Attacks were horrendous draws and the interactive elements of a straight Jund deck without Punishing Fire felt insufficient. I feel like adding a white splash for Nahiri can fix some of these issues. We're already playing the Emrakul to fetch with her ultimate. Her card selection ability allows us to pitch Sneak Attacks when they're bad. Her removal ability can answer hard to answer threats like Gurmag Angler or Mirran Crusader. The white splash also gives us access to a few powerful sideboard options and the ability to play Path to Exile, either main or sideboard. People can make the red splash in Junk Rhino lists work, so I figure we can do the same for a white splash in Jund.


I dug up the posts where Nahiri splash first showed up in SneakFit.
First discussion (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28548-Primer-Deck-Nic-Fit&p=972370&viewfull=1#post972370)
List (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28548-Primer-Deck-Nic-Fit&p=972501&viewfull=1#post972501)

[Brael]

Has anyone tried brewing with Nahiri, the Harbinger? I played Sneak Fit a little, but without Sensei's Divining Top, the deck felt too inconsistent for my tastes. Redundant Sneak Attacks were horrendous draws and the interactive elements of a straight Jund deck without Punishing Fire felt insufficient. I feel like adding a white splash for Nahiri can fix some of these issues. We're already playing the Emrakul to fetch with her ultimate. Her card selection ability allows us to pitch Sneak Attacks when they're bad. Her removal ability can answer hard to answer threats like Gurmag Angler or Mirran Crusader. The white splash also gives us access to a few powerful sideboard options and the ability to play Path to Exile, either main or sideboard. People can make the red splash in Junk Rhino lists work, so I figure we can do the same for a white splash in Jund.

Seems like a bad idea. 4 color rhino decks haven't really been popular or high performing. You're going to run into similar issues with Sneak.

I think the better way to approach it would be to use Cathartic Reunion. It digs deep so it replicates SDT in some aspect, it's in color, and it gives you some card filtering. I don't follow Sneak all that closely so I don't know if it's been seriously tried, but that's where I would start.

[Plm]

Did bring bob fit to the geneva legacy 10 , 97 players and I scrubbed a 3-3 result before dropping.

won VS manaless dredge, grixis delver and D&T lost to ANT, S&S and helm fit (yeah 2 nic fit players in the room they got to play against each other)

report will follow, highlights are : manabase was unstable, unfair decks are unfair, crop rotation was splendid every time I draw it, chamelon colossus won me every game I played it.

Was very interested in the GB helm fit I faced, combo kill is so nice and the deck was pure control (and I was so wrecked by those deeds).

edit : helm fit in top 8 ! Will post his decklist has soon as I lay my hands on it.

[Brael]

report will follow, highlights are : manabase was unstable, unfair decks are unfair, crop rotation was splendid every time I draw it, chamelon colossus won me every game I played it.

Was very interested in the GB helm fit I faced, combo kill is so nice and the deck was pure control (and I was so wrecked by those deeds).

I'm assuming you played something similar to what you posted before? With a lower curve you need more colored sources, that probably lead to mana instability. That's one of the reasons I like playing just two colors. Colossus and Rotation are always all stars for me (though I'm not currently playing Colossus).

I too am interested in helm fit.

[Plm]

Yeah I played the same list but with the second tracker instead of the second witness.

My manabase problems are because I was so greedy with the utility lands (shouldn't have played cavern and ghost quarter in the main, but who knows maybe it's just my pairing that were unfavorable for those lands to shine).

Helm fit currently in top 4 !

[militiaman89]

Very interested in this helm fit list!!!

[Plm]

What I can summarize from that helm list (that top4ed in a field ripe with combo) is :

Green black no splash.
4 ley line 3 helm 2 intent.
2 hymn 2 brutality .
Decay and deed as removal.
At least 2 sylvan library and ob nixilis reignited.
I saw the usual suspects : witness and tracker. No big fat monster.

He told me that the helm kill accounted for 50% of his win.

I'll dig for the exact decklist.

[Echelon]

Cool!

[Jed4570]

Hi all,

I am new to this thread ... this deck ... and Legacy in general. I have played MTG for many years now, but just never could afford to get into legacy (dual lands mainly!!!)

I love this style of deck and have most of the cards (apart from duals at the moment) ... but have really struggled to find (apart from this excellent thread/discussion) much resource or information elsewhere on the web. I look out for streamed competitions, but very rarely is there anyone playing a Nic Fit style deck.

After this long introduction, my question is ... why is Nic Fit such a niche (code for unpopular) deck choice and why do none of the known/pro magic players (apart from Andrea Mengucci) play it? Is it more of a fun deck to play, rather than a consistently 'good' deck when it comes to competitive play?

[Echelon]

Hi all,

I am new to this thread ... this deck ... and Legacy in general. I have played MTG for many years now, but just never could afford to get into legacy (dual lands mainly!!!)

I love this style of deck and have most of the cards (apart from duals at the moment) ... but have really struggled to find (apart from this excellent thread/discussion) much resource or information elsewhere on the web. I look out for streamed competitions, but very rarely is there anyone playing a Nic Fit style deck.

After this long introduction, my question is ... why is Nic Fit such a niche (code for unpopular) deck choice and why do none of the known/pro magic players (apart from Andrea Mengucci) play it? Is it more of a fun deck to play, rather than a consistently 'good' deck when it comes to competitive play?

Nic Fit is a metagame predator that needs a specific meta to flourish. The biggest reason why competitive players tend to shy away from Nic Fit is b/c it has some horrible MUs. In a tournament setting it's better to run a deck that's mostly 50/50 across the board with a couple of very good MUs than to run a deck that's 60/40 (if that) against a part of the meta and like 20/80 against another.

Another thing is that Nic Fit has the label of being an anything-goes deck where you can play whatever tickles your fancy. This is far from true though, as most lists are very deliberately configured the way they are. Every card plays some particular role. Nic Fit is also far more difficult to play well (consistently) than one might imagine. The lists that are constructed under the "anything goes"-mantra usually don't do very well. The most common pitfalls are running an unstable manabase and/or not respecting any form of a manacurve. The former causes the deck to crap itself by missing colours (and/or a sufficient quantity of mana), the latter clunks up hands resulting in death before being able to act b/c you're either too slow or get bit in the ass by mana denial.

[Arianrhod]

Hi all,

I am new to this thread ... this deck ... and Legacy in general. I have played MTG for many years now, but just never could afford to get into legacy (dual lands mainly!!!)

I love this style of deck and have most of the cards (apart from duals at the moment) ... but have really struggled to find (apart from this excellent thread/discussion) much resource or information elsewhere on the web. I look out for streamed competitions, but very rarely is there anyone playing a Nic Fit style deck.

After this long introduction, my question is ... why is Nic Fit such a niche (code for unpopular) deck choice and why do none of the known/pro magic players (apart from Andrea Mengucci) play it? Is it more of a fun deck to play, rather than a consistently 'good' deck when it comes to competitive play?

Echelon already hit most of the salient points, but I'll reinforce a couple of them.

For one, a lot of the discussion has moved to the discord -- which has slowed this thread down a bit and the subreddit down to a crawl.

There isn't really a 'general purpose' Nic Fit in the way that Echelon noted, one that's good vs both fair decks and combo decks. It's theorized that if it exists, it's likely somewhere in the bug wedge, but it's evaded us for a long, long time. Instead, we have a Batman's Toolbelt of options which requires proper metagaming skill to navigate. Nyx is great vs Elves and Lands, for example, which are two matchups that something like Scapewish struggles with...whereas Scape mows down Czech Pile and is favored vs Sneak/Show but has issues with fast combo. That's just two of the options -- when you consider all of Nicfitdom, it becomes very complex to know what deck you're supposed to play.

It also means you have to be deep in Nic Fit. You need to know what versions exist and how to play all of them. Knowing how to play even one version of Nic Fit can take quite a while to figure out, although luckily most of them overlap in skillsets. A lot of people, the majority, I think, who are serious competitive players that try this deck eventually get frustrated and fed up, and put the deck down after a brief honeymoon period. They don't have the requisite patience to sit and jam and learn. It takes months for most, years for some -- whereas people can go and learn something easier / more linearly powerful like Delver or Lands or whatever instead. Nic Fit takes a certain level of finesse that can't ultimately be taught.

These issues compound at their confluence. It's not enjoyable to grind and learn a deck that you don't like or feel like you can win with -- and while there is likely a Nic Fit for almost everyone, it can take a while to work through the huge variation in our decklists to find one that you like.

I mean, I obviously think that it's worth it, but I'm also the wise old sage sitting atop the mountain, not Sisyphus rolling the boulder, so my bias has to be taken into consideration. We are actually fairly well positioned at the moment in general, which makes it a decent time to learn, at least.

[Bobmans]

When starting to learn NicFit i would most defenitly advice to start with a fair NicFit list. This because i believe that most comboesque versions like Scapeshift some what distract you from playing a decend Veteran Explorer / Cabal Therapy / Pernicious Deed attrition game. Mastering this means Mastering the core of NicFit. Splashing whatever combo on top of it means you know how the combo supplements the NicFit game. Not doing so might put you to much on focus on the combo. The most important benefit from playing NicFit is the ability to pull negative boardstate back into your advantage.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk

[Jed4570]

Thanks all for the excellent advice. As you've each identified, there is no one list to rule them all, just local meta considerations, or personal preference.

As a BGx player, Nic Fit suits my style of play, allowing a tool box of creatures that can be used as silver bullets. Having absorbed the comments on this forum, I've gone the value root with a Sultai build, using two Pods and come into play or leave battlefield triggers to out value the opposition. Whilst this may not be the optimal build for competitive play, it is fun. My experience so far has been that I either win comfortably, or die horribly. I think I need help making a deck less polarised. (I'd rather lose a good, close match, than a one sided drubbing either way!! I play for fun first, winning second.)

I'll list my deck below, but be gentle, as I said, I'm a total noob with Legacy and my local meta isn't very competitive. Happy to consider suggestions ... and upgrades (dual lands!!!).

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Thragtusk
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Carnage Tyrant
1 Grave Titan

1 Nissa, Vital Force

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Birthing Pod
1 Recurring Nightmare

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pools
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower

I've considered Diabolic Intent and Toxic Deluge MB, but not sure what to cut. Otherwise, open to suggestions. Cheers.

[Ulysse95]

Thanks all for the excellent advice. As you've each identified, there is no one list to rule them all, just local meta considerations, or personal preference.

As a BGx player, Nic Fit suits my style of play, allowing a tool box of creatures that can be used as silver bullets. Having absorbed the comments on this forum, I've gone the value root with a Sultai build, using two Pods and come into play or leave battlefield triggers to out value the opposition. Whilst this may not be the optimal build for competitive play, it is fun. My experience so far has been that I either win comfortably, or die horribly. I think I need help making a deck less polarised. (I'd rather lose a good, close match, than a one sided drubbing either way!! I play for fun first, winning second.)

I'll list my deck below, but be gentle, as I said, I'm a total noob with Legacy and my local meta isn't very competitive. Happy to consider suggestions ... and upgrades (dual lands!!!).

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Thragtusk
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Carnage Tyrant
1 Grave Titan

1 Nissa, Vital Force

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Birthing Pod
1 Recurring Nightmare

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pools
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower

I've considered Diabolic Intent and Toxic Deluge MB, but not sure what to cut. Otherwise, open to suggestions. Cheers.

Hi !
I think your curve is a bit to high. 4 x 4 drop and 5 x 5+ drop... Would cut Thrun, Redcap and Tyrant first in your build. Would had Meren (quite an EtB effect and buy back at least your 3 drop on pod).
Also a few pages ago, a lot of people were saying that baleful stri was not that great in Nic Fit. You could try to cut 1 or 2 of them.
I know that Leovold is becoming more and more expensive but get at least 1 !!! ;)
So for me

-Thrun
-Redcap
-Tyrant
-1/2 Strix

+Leo
+Meren

Then 3 slots where you can put either discard/remove all that manage early game for exemple.

[Matsu]

@Jed4570

When I build a classic Nic Fit list I build it like that:
Creature:
4 GSZ
1 Arbor to increase the amount of one drop to 10
6 one drop
2 two drop
2 three drop
2 four drop
2 five drop
1 six drop

2 PW

4 Therapy

10 removals including discard spells

3 flavour

21 lands

I start with this, then I adjust the curve depends on the metagame.
Lots of small blue creature more Abrupt decay. Lots of reanimator, S&S more Path to exile/discard. Lots of blades more Pernicious deed. Lots of elves & True name nemesis & Young pyro more toxic deluge.

Then you move your creature & PW for example to be more aggressive, cheap plainswalker 4CC max 5CC you choose PW that produce creaure (Vital Force, Lord of Innistrad).
Remove 6CC + 1CC creature, you now have 7CC creature points to divide for example for a 3CC + a 4CC drop.

Wants more controlish version, play more six drops, more removals and ramp.

I go for the mathematical way.

Then is just test test test.
When I stopped playing years ago, Survival of the Fittest was legal. I restarted in Khans and I lost around 20/30 matchs before I won the first one with the same cards. Now I know the metagame and how to play against it. I know when to sandbag a therapy or take more damage to remove a bigger board with deeds when your opponent over extend.

Nic Fit is a mind play deck. You can win lots of games if you have experience with the deck.

Playing against Nic Fit is pain in the ass. Your opponent has to precisely evaluate your threats. For Delver most of the time you know you have to deal with Delver, YP, TNN, Gunrmag, some Shamans. Against Nic Fit, they remove you Rhino, you play Sigarda, tey remove sigarda, you play Vital Force. Most of people do not like playing against Nic Fit because you play only Veteran explorer and Therapy the rest is commander cards. Then they die to Grave titan, sun titan, Consecrated sphinx, Sigarda, rhino and other fringe cards. That is why I play it, to see their face when you play a Dinosaur or Sandwurm convergence :)

[vilnico]

What I can summarize from that helm list (that top4ed in a field ripe with combo) is :

Green black no splash.
4 ley line 3 helm 2 intent.
2 hymn 2 brutality .
Decay and deed as removal.
At least 2 sylvan library and ob nixilis reignited.
I saw the usual suspects : witness and tracker. No big fat monster.

He told me that the helm kill accounted for 50% of his win.

I'll dig for the exact decklist.

And I was just wishing going under the radar
I guess that's not gonna work this time. Thanks Plm ^__^;...

For those interested, the list is coming on mtgtop8, but I guess I can spoil it here:


1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
3 Tireless Tracker

4 Cabal Therapy
1 go for the throat
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Diabolic Intent
2 Sylvan Library
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Helm of Obedience
3 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Ob Nixilis Reignited

4 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
2 Phyrexian Tower

side:
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Thoughtseize
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Choke
1 Tsunami
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Diabolic edict
1 Bitterblossom
1 Pithing needle


It's inspired from a list I am sure having seen on the thread here, in the range of pages 13x. But I can't spot it anymore for some reasons...
There's also an earlier variant on Reddit. Credits to its original author.

I can try a report some time later. I am not sure about the ratio of Helm winning games, but if I have to ballpark it, it's above 50%. (I know I am not taking risks here :p)
Quickly I went 5-1-1 in the Swiss, won the 1/4 to Burn, and lost to Turbo Depth in the semi.

[Echelon]

Congrats on the result!

[square_two]

And I was just wishing going under the radar
I guess that's not gonna work this time. Thanks Plm ^__^;...

For those interested, the list is coming on mtgtop8, but I guess I can spoil it here:


It's inspired from a list I am sure having seen on the thread here, in the range of pages 13x. But I can't spot it anymore for some reasons...
There's also an earlier variant on Reddit. Credits to its original author.

I can try a report some time later. I am not sure about the ratio of Helm winning games, but if I have to ballpark it, it's above 50%. (I know I am not taking risks here :p)
Quickly I went 5-1-1 in the Swiss, won the 1/4 to Burn, and lost to Turbo Depth in the semi.

Very nice! Glad it ran well for you. I experimented with a Helm list for a few online leagues. Was quite nice hitting storm and dredge.

How did you like the Ob Nixilis? I enjoyed Nissa, Vital Force in my versions since it could buy back both Deed and Helm. Turning a land into a creature was also helpful in order to Intent for Helm. Nissa also provides for a faster clock in case you have pivoted that way in a game with Trackers. I could see Ob Nix killing some creatures that otherwise would be problematic though.

Love some of your sideboard choices.

[vilnico]

Very nice! Glad it ran well for you. I experimented with a Helm list for a few online leagues. Was quite nice hitting storm and dredge.

How did you like the Ob Nixilis? I enjoyed Nissa, Vital Force in my versions since it could buy back both Deed and Helm. Turning a land into a creature was also helpful in order to Intent for Helm. Nissa also provides for a faster clock in case you have pivoted that way in a game with Trackers. I could see Ob Nix killing some creatures that otherwise would be problematic though.

Love some of your sideboard choices.

Ah was it your list? It's your name coming up on Reddit?
Why can't I find the list anymore on this thread? :frown:

I'll answer later on Nixilis vs Nissa, and sideboard. I guess all with the report.

[Memories of the Time]

@Nyx Fit: i'm really struggling to find the final 2-3 slots of my build: Ground Seal is very good only if you know your meta, otherwise it slows down the deck.
I've found a 4c nyx player on MTGO who was playing brainstorm in a deck like this, i really would like to know how his tests are going ^^

// 11 Creature
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
4 Academy Rector
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

// 14 Enchantment
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Evolutionary Leap
1 Sandwurm Convergence
1 Overwhelming Splendor
4 Mirri's Guile
3 Ground Seal

// 21 Land


// 14 Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Collective Brutality
4 Lingering Souls

[Brael]

It's inspired from a list I am sure having seen on the thread here, in the range of pages 13x. But I can't spot it anymore for some reasons...
There's also an earlier variant on Reddit. Credits to its original author.

I can try a report some time later. I am not sure about the ratio of Helm winning games, but if I have to ballpark it, it's above 50%. (I know I am not taking risks here :p)
Quickly I went 5-1-1 in the Swiss, won the 1/4 to Burn, and lost to Turbo Depth in the semi.

I remember the list you're talking about, but forget who made it. It seemed good. I like most things your list is doing.

How well did Diabolic Intent work for you with just 10 creatures to sacrifice?

[Plm]

@ nico : Sorry about the outing but your deck was the only one I played against that was exciting, the games were good and lot of fun (even if deed raped me).
That ob nixilis plus 2 library was a fast kill that I never saw before:tongue:
Congrats on top4ing, did you escape the unfair decks or does the 8 maindeck discard disrupt them enough?

[Brael]

Very nice! Glad it ran well for you. I experimented with a Helm list for a few online leagues. Was quite nice hitting storm and dredge.

How did you like the Ob Nixilis? I enjoyed Nissa, Vital Force in my versions since it could buy back both Deed and Helm. Turning a land into a creature was also helpful in order to Intent for Helm. Nissa also provides for a faster clock in case you have pivoted that way in a game with Trackers. I could see Ob Nix killing some creatures that otherwise would be problematic though.

Love some of your sideboard choices.

I'm not sure Tracker is the card you want here. Trackers value accrues slowly and a 9 creature list is really weak to removal. Something with a faster return is likely better. That's why I like the 2 Eternal Witness in this list. If you're willing to go all in on the combo, maybe some other strong vs removal cards like Sakura Tribe Elder.

Actually, that might be an interesting thought experiment, combining Scapeshift+Helm combo in one deck with a Nic Fit mana ramp engine to play either one.

[caseyc]

Hi All,

I just put together my first real Nic Fit deck a couple weeks ago and have been testing it. (I previously tried a Fruity Pebbles Nic Fit combo deck without much success, though it was hilarious). It's a BUG build. My goal is to create a consistent shell (using cantrips) with a powerful engine--and then fun, badass cards that come along with the Nic Fit archetype. The engine is any combination of Gitrog, Titania, and Ramunap Excavator. Also, I want the main deck to crush fair matchups (most of the field is fair right now)--and my SB to be solid in games 2 and 3 versus combo. Below is my list:

Lands (21):
2x Bayou
1x Underground Sea
1x Tropical Island
1x Savannah
1x Wasteland
2x Island
2x Forest
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Dryad Arbor

Spells (39):
3x Veteran Explorer
4x Cabal Therapy
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Snapcaster Mage
1x Eternal Witness
1x Ramunap Excavator
1x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1x Meren of Clan Nel-toth
1x Titania, Protector of Argoth
1x The Gitrog Monster
1x Carnage Tyrant
1x Pernicious Deed
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Fatal Push
1x Go For The Throat
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Baleful Strix
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Garruk Relentless

SB (15):
2x Flusterstorm
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Thoughtseize
2x Diabolic Edict
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Arcane Laboratory
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Lost Legacy
1x Golgari Charm

I'm very open to thoughts, questions, and feedback on the build. Thanks :-)

Any thoughts? Feedback? Who all is playing BUG lists these days?

[pettdan]

Any thoughts? Feedback? Who all is playing BUG lists these days?

How is the list working for you? You said you have been testing it. It seems a bit unfocused, probably that's why you don't get feedback, also stuff just drowns here sometimes. And if a list doesn't have a clear focus then it's just a BUG good stuff list, that can be interesting too, anything that works is interesting, but will get less comments.

4 Ponders seems a lot but they are of course good cards, it's just that they can slow down a mana intensive deck (or that's been a recent hypothesis in this thread) . With all that blue why are there no FoW's, at least in the board? Carnage Tyrant looks like overkill to me, you already have a few good finishers with synergy, settle for that; I'd try Tireless Tracker instead, comes down earlier and must be dealt with while providing card advantage and being relevant in all matchups. You could consider Courser of Kruphix and Sylvan Library in the list too, maybe over two Ponders, they work very well together and can be very powerful in certain matchups, Courser adds lifegain to the deck and synergizes with your finishing package. It also seems like a mistake to only play a single Deed in the maindeck, it's a very powerful card and usually works very well in the deck and you have a couple of planeswalkers that really benefit from it.

[Brael]

How is the list working for you? You said you have been testing it. It seems a bit unfocused, probably that's why you don't get feedback, also stuff just drowns here sometimes. And if a list doesn't have a clear focus then it's just a BUG good stuff list, that can be interesting too, anything that works is interesting, but will get less comments.

4 Ponders seems a lot but they are of course good cards, it's just that they can slow down a mana intensive deck (or that's been a recent hypothesis in this thread) . With all that blue why are there no FoW's, at least in the board? Carnage Tyrant looks like overkill to me, you already have a few good finishers with synergy, settle for that; I'd try Tireless Tracker instead, comes down earlier and must be dealt with while providing card advantage and being relevant in all matchups. You could consider Courser of Kruphix and Sylvan Library in the list too, maybe over two Ponders, they work very well together and can be very powerful in certain matchups, Courser adds lifegain to the deck and synergizes with your finishing package. It also seems like a mistake to only play a single Deed in the maindeck, it's a very powerful card and usually works very well in the deck and you have a couple of planeswalkers that really benefit from it.

Force of Will, even in blue decks is a mistake in Nic Fit. It waters down your threat consistency too much.

[pettdan]

Force of Will, even in blue decks is a mistake in Nic Fit. It waters down your threat consistency too much.

In the maindeck it can be hard to fit, I get the same feeling usually. In the sideboard however I think it can be quite valuable, do you think it's bad there too?

[Brael]

In the maindeck it can be hard to fit, I get the same feeling usually. In the sideboard however I think it can be quite valuable, do you think it's bad there too?

Yes. I think there's better options. The problem with FoW isn't just that it waters down your creature count, but that it also forces you into a bunch of blue cards. As a result your GSZ's take a double hit. I think a handful of cheap counterspells like Flusterstorm works better if you're going to play counters, but that discard like Therapy and Brutality is far more effective overall.

[Jed4570]

Thanks to Matsu and Ulysse95 for the guidance/suggestions.

I've dropped 1 Strix, Thrun and Redcap, adding 1 Leovold, Meren AND ... still have one space ...

I'd love to keep Carnage Tyrant, but appreciate he's (or she's) maybe a win more card ... do I drop him and add Diabolic Intent & Toxic Deluge MB?

Keep the comments coming ... whilst there is no 'one deck' (BUG, Junk, Jund variations all with different focus) the core as described by Ulysse95 makes perfect sense for a core to build around.

Also, I enjoyed the discussion re counters v hand disruption ... I think I'd always err on proactive threat extraction rather than a counterspell, seems cleaner and more targeted.

[Navsi]

Thanks to Matsu and Ulysse95 for the guidance/suggestions.

I've dropped 1 Strix, Thrun and Redcap, adding 1 Leovold, Meren AND ... still have one space ...

I'd love to keep Carnage Tyrant, but appreciate he's (or she's) maybe a win more card ... do I drop him and add Diabolic Intent & Toxic Deluge MB?

Keep the comments coming ... whilst there is no 'one deck' (BUG, Junk, Jund variations all with different focus) the core as described by Ulysse95 makes perfect sense for a core to build around.

Also, I enjoyed the discussion re counters v hand disruption ... I think I'd always err on proactive threat extraction rather than a counterspell, seems cleaner and more targeted.

Intent is only really good if you have single cards that literally end the game immediately when case, and are low in mana cost. I wouldn't run it outside of a combo style build, and even then it's not the most reliable option.

Are you specifically trying to build around Pod? Birthing Pod is pretty awfully positioned right now because, like Stoneforge, it has real issues dealing with Kolaghan's Command decks which are otherwise pretty good matchups.

[Jed4570]

Intent is only really good if you have single cards that literally end the game immediately when case, and are low in mana cost. I wouldn't run it outside of a combo style build, and even then it's not the most reliable option.

Are you specifically trying to build around Pod? Birthing Pod is pretty awfully positioned right now because, like Stoneforge, it has real issues dealing with Kolaghan's Command decks which are otherwise pretty good matchups.

I get the point about Diabolic Intent, although, if I make tweaks (see below) I would have options for tutor worthy answers.

That was the thought to use POD for silver bullets ... but as you say, with Kolaghan's Command being used more, POD is susceptible. Without it, I'd certainly have more slots for Diabolic Intent bullets. Another PW might be an idea ... Nissa is great, is two too many? Or Garruck Relentless?

[Navsi]

I get the point about Diabolic Intent, although, if I make tweaks (see below) I would have options for tutor worthy answers.

That was the thought to use POD for silver bullets ... but as you say, with Kolaghan's Command being used more, POD is susceptible. Without it, I'd certainly have more slots for Diabolic Intent bullets. Another PW might be an idea ... Nissa is great, is two too many? Or Garruck Relentless?

You already have Zenith for silver bullets. If you want a tutorable planeswalker, Nissa Vastwood Seer is pretty great against a lot of decks.

I don't think more than one Nissa VF is a good idea just because she is both expensive in mana and not tutorable. I'd run 0-1 Nissa VF, 1 Nissa VS, 0-1 Garruk Relentless, and 1-2 Jace the Mind Sculptor for planeswalkers. Possible a 6cmc Vraska in the sideboard for grindy games if you want to spend the slot.

[JackaBo]

Played Wurmmachine last night to a 0-1-3 finnish. I faced 3 controldecks (4c Leo, grixis kess and UW blade) and rhinofit and had serious problems closing the games. If i had more time i think i would have gone 3-1. I dont think i played slow. Problem was stuff like multiple swords on wurms prolonging the inevitable.
Anyone else having this issue?
I think I'm gonna try Misfortunes and starfield in main to add more ways to overload opponent with multiple enchantments. Any comments or suggestions?

[JackaBo]

You already have Zenith for silver bullets. If you want a tutorable planeswalker, Nissa Vastwood Seer is pretty great against a lot of decks.

I don't think more than one Nissa VF is a good idea just because she is both expensive in mana and not tutorable. I'd run 0-1 Nissa VF, 1 Nissa VS, 0-1 Garruk Relentless, and 1-2 Jace the Mind Sculptor for planeswalkers. Possible a 6cmc Vraska in the sideboard for grindy games if you want to spend the slot.

If i were to play an agressive bugfit list with 15+ creatures i would play the playset of chart a course over ponder. I think brainstorm is fine as it makes your starting 7 best of 10 which kan be very beneficial in a clunky deck. Chart kan give you the punch you need to overload opponent with threats. Even the 'no attack mode' is fine in the lage game when you draw unwanted fetches.

[Ulysse95]

Played Wurmmachine last night to a 0-1-3 finnish. I faced 3 controldecks (4c Leo, grixis kess and UW blade) and rhinofit and had serious problems closing the games. If i had more time i think i would have gone 3-1. I dont think i played slow. Problem was stuff like multiple swords on wurms prolonging the inevitable.
Anyone else having this issue?
I think I'm gonna try Misfortunes and starfield in main to add more ways to overload opponent with multiple enchantments. Any comments or suggestions?

What was your list?

Sometimes, finish is indeed the problem. But between Dovescape, lingering souls and wurmcoil, it should be ok, no? What was the issue apart from removals on your wurms?

I really liked misfortunes, just need a particular build to have enought good targets.
Starfield can be good again since it seems that the meta became a bit slowler, no?

[Memories of the Time]

I've added a Sigarda and she's been great, absolutely =)

[JackaBo]

What was your list?

Sometimes, finish is indeed the problem. But between Dovescape, lingering souls and wurmcoil, it should be ok, no? What was the issue apart from removals on your wurms?

I really liked misfortunes, just need a particular build to have enought good targets.
Starfield can be good again since it seems that the meta became a bit slowler, no?

Deck: Legacy Wurmmachine.dec

Creatures:8
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Academy Rector

Spells:31
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Fatal Push
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Mirri's Guile
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
3 Evolutionary Leap
4 Lingering Souls
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Garruk Relentless
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Dovescape
1 Overwhelming Splendor
1 Sandwurm Convergence

Lands:22
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:13
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Innocent Blood
2 Ground Seal
1 Choke
2 Lost Legacy
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Nether Void
1 Starfield of Nyx
2 more cards can't remember on top of my head

Mostly I went to time because this deck is good at surviving, dragging out the game.
In one game I won through three disenchants.

My plan is to -2 inquisition -2 push -1 Sandwurm convergence for +2 CB +1 curse of misfortunes, +1 starfield +1 Cruel reality
Curse and starfield is semi castable and act as rector 5-6 for increased consistency.
Brutality can pitch drawn bombs to cheat in with starfield.

I haven't tried fetching dovescape on a chance and try to win with higher cmc spells. Do you think that line is viable?

[Echelon]

I get the point about Diabolic Intent, although, if I make tweaks (see below) I would have options for tutor worthy answers.

That was the thought to use POD for silver bullets ... but as you say, with Kolaghan's Command being used more, POD is susceptible. Without it, I'd certainly have more slots for Diabolic Intent bullets. Another PW might be an idea ... Nissa is great, is two too many? Or Garruck Relentless?

My biggest beef with Pod lists is that they tend to durdle like there's no tomorrow, regardless of how it's currently positioned. It's so much more efficient to just dump a threat and go for it rather than try and grind a little bit of easily answerable advantage. Basically power creep made Pod obsolete.

[Brael]

My biggest beef with Pod lists is that they tend to durdle like there's no tomorrow, regardless of how it's currently positioned. It's so much more efficient to just dump a threat and go for it rather than try and grind a little bit of easily answerable advantage. Basically power creep made Pod obsolete.

SE builds revolve around the concept of building up a lot of incremental advantage (mostly through a bunch of 2 for 1's and card draw) and then eventually win, despite having weaker individual board pieces. The strategy still works, just not with Pod as your engine.

As always though, I favor moderation. Sometimes giving up a bit of grinding in order to quicken your clock is worth it. I'm getting real close to replacing Nissa with Carnage Tyrant. The only reason I haven't fully embraced the switch yet, is that having access to hasted threats can be extremely powerful and I haven't yet found something in green that provides haste. Strangleroot Geist is something I've tried a bit, and haven't had completely horrible results with, but I don't like the mana cost. Surrak, the Hunt Caller is the next best, but I haven't found a good creature curve to enable Ferocious yet (though I like that Dryad Arbor+Bob turns it on, or Tracker).

I could easily see my next build using Chameleon Colossus+Surrak+Carnage Tyrant as my top end.

I'm really interested in both Scapeshift and Helm builds, but I don't have the cards for either. Helm I could probably put together now, but I won't be able to build Scapeshift for a couple months, at minimum.

Maybe thinking something like this... I think I'll even have a chance to play it this weekend due to the holidays here in the US.

Land 23
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Bayou
5 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bojuka Bog

Creatures 19
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
1 Carnage Tyrant

Spells 19
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Crop Rotation
2 Collective Brutality
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Sideboard 15
4 Lost Legacy
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Dismember
1 Maze of Ith
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Duress
1 Golgari Charm
1 Crop Rotation
1 Choke

This is where I'm at right now, but the curve is quite a bit higher than what I normally play with, so I'm looking for ways to streamline things.

At 79 mana pips, that means 1.32 mana per card and closer to 1.5 after GSZ is accounted for.
If I take a somewhat realistic look at mana progression it's probably going to look something like this over 8 turns 1, 3, 4, 5, 5, 6, 6, 7. That's 37 mana. Assume 3 clues and that leaves 31 to spend which is 20 cards. In 8 turns there's 8 draws+7 initial cards+3 from tracker and we're looking at 18 cards, plus a couple from Bob. This is almost at the point where it can play everything, but not quite there, as it can play everything on an average hand but not a below average hand. I'll have to think about it a bit more. Maybe playtest a hand or two.

Thoughts? Have I gone crazy? Anything for the sideboard that people think I should consider? I'm not yet sold on Dismember, Golgari Charm, Choke.

[Bobmans]

Brael, have you considered Giant Solifuge?

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk

[Brael]

1 toughness seems like way too big a drawback. I don't want a 4 drop that trades with an elemental token.

[Bobmans]

1 toughness seems like way too big a drawback. I don't want a 4 drop that trades with an elemental token.Yeah, true.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk

[Brael]

Not much to go on, but I got a few sample hands in with the above list. It has the raw power I'm looking for, and Surrak seems pretty powerful. Thanks to him I was managing swings of 15+ on turn 4 or 5 while still being able to maintain card advantage.

[Ulysse95]

My plan is to -2 inquisition -2 push -1 Sandwurm convergence for +2 CB +1 curse of misfortunes, +1 starfield +1 Cruel reality
Curse and starfield is semi castable and act as rector 5-6 for increased consistency.
Brutality can pitch drawn bombs to cheat in with starfield.

I haven't tried fetching dovescape on a chance and try to win with higher cmc spells. Do you think that line is viable?

You only have 1 decay, 2 deeds and no stp, so I fear you will be a bit under armed against fast bombs. But could be my vision.

Dovescape would have annnihiled those 3 desenchant you were talking about for exemple and yeah, in most match up, you will be ahead, mostly if you have evolution leap or Garruck on the board.

[Echelon]

SE builds revolve around the concept of building up a lot of incremental advantage (mostly through a bunch of 2 for 1's and card draw) and then eventually win, despite having weaker individual board pieces. The strategy still works, just not with Pod as your engine.

SE builds a lot of small advantages while keeping all of the bodies around (increasing pressure on the opponent as the game progresses), Pod just switches 1 body for another :wink:.


Brael, have you considered Giant Solifuge?

Crocodile of the Crossing! Same CMC, worst case scenario same power and dies to Bolt to boot but at least can't be killed by a lone 1+/x.

[JackaBo]

You only have 1 decay, 2 deeds and no stp, so I fear you will be a bit under armed against fast bombs. But could be my vision.

Dovescape would have annnihiled those 3 desenchant you were talking about for exemple and yeah, in most match up, you will be ahead, mostly if you have evolution leap or Garruck on the board.

Good feedback. I have tried swords but
1)i felt that i needed more white sources so that i could cast it early and that more white sources were decreasing the mana-consistency. Like i really dont want basic plains in starting hands.
2) i've stuck with removal (except the one off decay) that also kills my rector if need be, also to increase consistency.
One could say i trade power for consistency but to me the power lies in the enchantments and i want to consistently cheat them in.

I only faced bombs versus nicfit. And i wouldnt say they were as much problems as pridemages and grips. I boarded in the two innocent bloods.
I will keep on tweaking the list and are happy for any feedback.

[Ulysse95]

Good feedback. I have tried swords but
1)i felt that i needed more white sources so that i could cast it early and that more white sources were decreasing the mana-consistency. Like i really dont want basic plains in starting hands.
2) i've stuck with removal (except the one off decay) that also kills my rector if need be, also to increase consistency.
One could say i trade power for consistency but to me the power lies in the enchantments and i want to consistently cheat them in.

I only faced bombs versus nicfit. And i wouldnt say they were as much problems as pridemages and grips. I boarded in the two innocent bloods.
I will keep on tweaking the list and are happy for any feedback.

So you should try running 2 crop rotation. It's like having a stp against reanimator or dark depth (or sneack show) with a Karakas, but it's also like having two more phyrexian tower.

[vilnico]

Hey guys,

Here's the report, as good as I can recollect it from my notes.
(Is that the good place to post it up?)

I was playing this, as previously mentioned, in a 97 players event.
7 rounds to Top8:



1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
3 Tireless Tracker

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Go for the Throat
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Diabolic Intent
2 Sylvan Library
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Helm of Obedience
3 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Ob Nixilis Reignited

4 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
2 Phyrexian Tower

side:
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Thoughtseize
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Choke
1 Tsunami
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Bitterblossom
1 Pithing Needle


Some comments, with the difference from square_two list (the one I can't find on the thread)
I usually play Academy Rector for the Omniscience crappy package. I am a little sad since Top got banned, and have yet found it's replacement.
And I must say I play it for ages, I kinda felt for a change. I was thinking either playing a hateful LLotV/Helm version, since every one wants to abuse graveyard with Snapcaster, K.Command, Angler... you name it, the Czech Pile crew, and all the B/r-Rea-haters-to-be-hated. It seems they still run in packs these days. One good thing with this deck, it that it happily kinda-completely ignores that stupid Leovold. :D
I also was impressed by Arian's list (Kudos!), and I actually felt like playing Scapeshift again since Chandra came out. But never got time to get at it, and I honestly did not follow on Dinosaurs, so I did not have the cards.
That's when I found a version of the list above, and I had most of these cards. Playing rather 1 Witness, 4 Trackers and 2 Nissa Vital Force instead of the Nixilis. The rest of the MD is just the same. First things first, I don't have Nissa's yet ^__^, so I went for my Nixilis buddy. The thing is that MD we don't have much to deal with Angler so I thought of it as a nice backup plan, who can do CA and as well finish off a guy. And I set a 2nd Witness, as I kind of appreciated the -3 from Nissa. Why not as well increasing redundancy through GSZ? especially when I don't have the Nissa.
Oh I forgot, the initial list plays Fatal Push over GftT. I just wonder why play a 1CCM spell that does not kill Angler, when a 2CCM spell kills everything else you wanna kill. And Strix ain't a target for Push right?

On the SB: I did not have the Lost Legacy, so I went for the usual 2 Surgicals. The initial list had 2 LLegacy and 1 Faerie Macabre. I can't still see why Faerie would be better than Surgical though?
It should have been a Pulse of Murasa over Pithing Needle, but I could not find it before the event. I wanted one just in case against Burn. And it is a somewhat decent GY hate. I was just unhappy when my Opponent in the 1/4 casted Lava Spike T1... and I was already missing this Pulse.
I was quite happy with Bitterblossom in the side. I have a feeling it is good in the current metagame. And everyone who saw it was like "awesome bro!". I was a bit anxious for Eldrazi, and guess Bitterblossom would have been great. In that respect, Ensnaring Bridge would be a better candidate, given all the Marit Lage pesting around? especially since Sejiri Steppe can be found easily.
I can't recall all the SB in and out, but they are quite easy with this deck. I think?


R1 - Bye
I wanna play and hate the world :((

R2 - A friend with 4c Loam - 2-1 // 2-1
Funny thing, we both know what the other play, since we we're friends and just chatting before the 2nd pairing. He just hated to see his pairing against me :P
G1 / OTP - We're both on Mulligan 6. I open LLotV, and blind Therapy T1 takes 2 Dark Confidant. Despite that I will lose this game :(
He resolve a Sylvan Library T2, and will lose 12 life on it to roll back on the Therapy T1 very fast. 2/2 KotRs, Ooze and Confidant will take me down, while I cannot draw enough removal and sweepers.
G2 / OTP - I open LLotV, Baloth, some Forest, GSZ, Deluge and Tutor. Opponent goes Mox + Gaddock Teeg T1. That prevents me to search the Veteran Explorer on GSZ. I actually 'tried' to cast GSZ forgetting what Gaddock does (I hate hobbits). Opponents reminds me of Hobbits' super powers, and I just manaburn myself (if only...). I think my silly action served me good later.
Lili comes T2 and goes +1 for my Baloth (opponent frowns, calling my Baloth a Nazi-SB-Hater :P). T3 Baloth stomps into Lili, Hobbits not being friends with witches, he galantly let her die. Actually, I did not land drop and I believe my Opp. did not want to let me play my GSZ, making him keep Gaddock (value of GSZ missplay?). He will play KotR which will buy some time thanks to Maze of Ith. So his KotR and Gaddock are looking into my Baloth eyes, while I finally find a B-source to play Deluge, which frees GSZ into Explorer. Follows Tutor for Helm.
G3 / OTD - That was a quick game, with no notes. I openened LLotV, fetched 3 times, and remember vaguely playing a Collective Brutality into Golgari Charm, saving my LLotV (I had kept a 2nd one in hand though) and Helm followed quickly.

R3 - Czech Pile - 0-2 // 2-3
G1 / ?? - I have made a few mistakes in this game. Early games was uneventful apart for a DRS and Discard for him. I eventually stack 2 Helms 1 LLotV and 1 Witness in my hand. I choose to run into his counters with Helm Helm LLotV with a Witness backup.
He lets resolve the 1st Helm, but destroys it with a Kolaghan's command. Follows a Tasigur, the Guest Star. 2nd Helm gets Force'd.
Witness to Helm also gets Snapcaster/Force'd. I draw GSZ and think, "nice my 2nd Witness!". I go for LLotV first though which resolves, but Tasigur already made a lot for him. Then I unfortunately draw my 2nd Witness, which tilted me out. Here's the essential mistake. I played Witness directly, that got Force'd, and then GSZ into a meaningless Tracker. I should have tried GSZ first to bait the Force (and he confirmed he would have), and then play my Witness. That would have got a Helm back for the win. Instead of that I will just die under his assaults...
Also, going with LLotV first would have been tremendously better. Opp didn't have a Force at that time, and Tasigur would have been cancelled. Anyway, different game. But I don't know if there was a way to know what was best to do at that time Leyline or Helm? Especially not knowing he self-invited Tasigur in his 60...
G2 / OTP - I lose this game on mana death. I had Forest, GSZ, Tracker, 2 Brutality, Tourach, and Deluge.
I take the bet that I will draw a land and go for GSZ on Dryad T1. I won't draw any land in the first turns. He goes with 2 DRS and discards (for Brutality and Deluge) and I will lose to that. A swamp eventually comes, so I can play a Brutality, he answers with a Surgical Extraction for the Deluge, and he reveals only lands in his hand. Drawing a land T2 would have been such a winner, wrong bet... don't let me play Poker ever :(

R4 - Plm-;) with Nic Fit, feat. Bob Maher - 2-0 // 4-3
G1 / OTP? - Double Tourach + Library won the game. I could have done anything after that. Nixilis came first, and I offered to kill my Opp with the Emblem. I went for that essentially for the fun, as I drew my 2nd Library to deal 12dmg per turn. Technically I also drew LLotV and Helm, but calling a Judge to ask how to resolve double Library was more fun :p (not calling the judge during a Nic Fit mirror would have been a simple shame!)
G2 / OTD - This game had more interaction, as I get low on life. Opp brought a Needle fast for Deed, and then went his way to beat me down with his troop. I eventually play Deed, then Decay the Needle to wipe the board. Followed by Helm. (I think I had LLotV in the 7?)

R5 - Top8-er, Storm - 2-0 // 6-3
G1 / OTD? - I saw a few cards during his shuffling, so I knew what kind of hand to keep. I went with 2xLLotV, 2xVeteran, Intent and 2 lands.
Leyline obviously bought me time as he only cantrip for his first turns, while I play my Veterans for a few swings. I am not sure what to do T4 (I think), while I am stuck on 2 lands. I cast Intent, but can't really afford going for Helm since I can't cast it yet. I hesitate between Brutality or Therapy. I would have named Infernal Tutor if I went for Therapy. I decided for Brutality, escalated with the 2nd Leyline for discard and drain him to get me on 21 life. He reveals 2 Tutors (sigh...), LED (sigher...), Duress and 2 lands. I have to take the Duress and cannot prevent Ad Nauseam to come at his turn. He starts on 14 life and goes down to 3 life, without any means to go off. His hand is full gain though, and I only have a Veteran to face him. I eventually draw a Cabal Therapy to take down a Tutor, and choose not to Flashback as I deem his hand much less better with the tutor. I poke for 1 damage, taking him on 2 life. His draw is still good, as he now threatens me with 20 Goblins... I draw a meaningless card and pass turn. He swings with 17 tokens, as I am on 21 life and have a Veteran Defender. No block takes me down to 4.
I draw GSZ for the win: GSZ into witness with my only 4 lands, which brings back Brutality. Flashback Therapy with the Veteran for 2 lands and play Brutality for the final drain!
Phew... that one was close.
I guess the gameplan would have been better to get Therapy in the first place with Intent. I would have hit the Tutors, and flashbacked for the LED, in exchange of 2 more lands for him and almost an emtpy hand... but then it's a different game. I got lucky I guess?
G2 / OTD - My 7s are LLotV, GSZ, 2xTourach, Tracker, Fetch and Tower. He goes Duress 1 and takes down GSZ. Calling for 'annoying GSZ'. I draw a Zenith like a champ, and plays it for Dryad Arbor, with the idea to go at least for a Tourach T2. He goes Nauseam T2 straight, starting at 17 life and falls down at 1 life revealing IT, IT, LED, Cabal Ritual, Cantrips, Islands and Fetches, Dark Petition, and eventually a Dark Ritual. He cannot fetch, so he lands a Island for Brainstorm, and fails finding the Lotus Petal. He just bring his hand forward before the Dryad could swing (of GSZ nuisance..., see Opp. comments earlier :p)
Sad day for Nauseam...

R6 - Buddy playing, Big Red - 2-1 // 6-4
My Opp is a friend with same stats, and we debate about the MU being bad for him if we get paired... before the pairing of course Xp.
An air of repairing floats around, making him happy to pass on that MU. No repairing --> him swearing at me :D
G1 / OTD - Stupidest game ever? I am under Mull-4, and still win this game. I had a flooded 7, a 1 lander at 6, no land at 5 (equivalent to the Mull4). Fall to 4 with GSZ, Tracker, LLotV, and a useless card (can't recall which one, definitely not a land). I just think: "what the hell, I am too bored to Mulligan more". Scry into a land :D, and off he goes with Mox, Land and Chalice@1. I draw and drop my land to pass turn. He follows with Trinisphere, I have time, all fine with me. I draw card and pass turn. Greater-Ape-Of-All-Times-comes-down ::fear::. I eventually find my 3rd land to play GSZ into Veteran Explorer, making the Great Ape Humble. Follows Tutor for Helm ^__^...
G2 / OTD - That's another strange game. Nothing happens for a while although he comes with Chalice, Magus and Trini for his first turns. This cuts me off B-mana for a few turns (I had only Forests and Tower in the 7), enough for him to lead the race. I play a Witness for a land I think, and later eventually find a black mana for a big Brutality (drain/discard/-2). I get hit by a Confluence first, discard another one, and take the Magus down. He resolves Chandra who will burn me down slowly. I draw Witness into Witness into Brutality, as I want to try and race Chandra, him being at 8 (because of Tomb). Sad thing is his Chalice drawing, as he plays it on 2 to stop the coming Brutality. I can only swing once with double Witnesses before being burned to hell by Chandra.
G3 / OTP - He is on Mulligan 5, and while I opened LLotV, GSZ and Tutor. Combo comes fast.

R7 - Burn (but I don't know it at that moment)
I am 4th at that moment, first at 15 points. I am paired with #3 on ranking, and 5-1-1 goes through top8, so we go ID.

I end up 6th, and get paired to my opponent of round 7
1/4 - Burn - 2-1 // 8-5
G1 / OTP- There's nothing much I could do here. Despite LLotV in the 7, I fail at finding the Helm before being burnt down.
G2 / OTP - Blind Therapy on Lava Spike. It's a hit! He sends me out a Goblin Guide and burns me some. I take down an Eidolon with Brutality, and get burned some more. Baloth cheers me up from 7 to 11, and now looks into Goblin Guide and Swiftspear's eyes. Opp finds blast, swings with the Goblin Guide which reveals an Eternal Witness. I block with Baloth and he just cancels his plan to burn the Baloth, as it would give me 4 more life. I play Witness for Brutality/Drain and pass. I draw another Witness into Brutality to take down the Swiftspear and beat him down to death.
G3 / OTD - We both Mull.6. I take my traditional 3 dmg spell on T1. Go blind/hit Therapy on Eidolon, leaving my Opp with PoP and Rift Bolt. His hand is quickly empty plus he gets flooded, while I find a Baloth to stand up, and find the combo on top.

1/2 - Event winner, Turbo Depth - 0-2 // 8-7
G1 / OTP - Not much I can do here, although I start with LLotV. Marit Lage comes before the Helm...
G2 / OTP - I open LLotV, Needle, Diabolic Edict, Bitterblossom, Deed, Land Land. I play Needle for Stage, he Duress my Edict. I play Bitterblossom T2 when he just drops Stage. T3 Brutality takes down a Surgical (he was tired and forgot to fire it ^^), and shows me 3 Dark Depth, a Bog and a Ghost Quarter. He draws easily the Hexmage, and then an Expedition Map that will find Sejiri Steppe to go over the Faeries. :(


Here are my feedback:

It's funny, I only had suspicious match-ups, and I lost the one MU that was positive to me (Czech pile).
(Ok this Nic Fit mirror, who just loses to Deed was also positive..., and a Nic Fit mirror is suspicious anyways, right? xD)
What I want to say is that this event may not representative of whether the deck is just fine (which is how it felt), or if it can shine better.

On the MD:
I never missed Nissa and her 5/5 beater, neither the 4th Tracker. And to be honest, I can see Steve Tracker being a beast, but it did not shine to me on that event. Not to mention I missed some landfall triggers, just because it was only my 2nd time playing her. But none of those misses came critical though. Anyways I was never the Aggro-beater, excepted for Baloths rushing into Lili's face for example.
Some guy asked about how only 9 creatures felt with Intent? Well it did not feel bad. I wouldn't play a 3rd Intent, and not necessarily more creatures just to feed Intent. What must be said is that all your Fetches are a Dryad, and GSZ are 3+ buddies. With that the balance is decent I think.
Nixilis to be honest was dropped only once, after I cast 2 Hymns and a Library. I mean, you play anything after that and you win. So it did not shine per say. Still to be pondered I think.
I think everyone said it, but Brutality is INSANE !!! It was my first time playing it, and how many times have I discarded my 2nd Leyline to it... It's just perfect in this deck for all the modes. 2 of that is great, I am not sure I would love a 3rd one though. And it totally changes the Burn MU, which I expected to be not positive at all with this deck.
I could see some edits there, maybe cutting out the Nixilis', and play in some Ranumap Excavators and a few Wasteland. But that might be too cute and not efficient enough?

On the SB: I would just balance getting a Ensnaring Bridge in? Needle is an easy out. I was happy of the SB overall, the INs and OUTs were easy and never too weird to do.

And at the end of the day, I can see myself play that deck again.
Hope you wanna play that deck to hate Czech pile a bit ;)

edit: There was a 3rd Nic Fit in the room, he was playing Rhino beat-down. I didn't get a chance to talk to hm and check on his record.

[Brael]

Crocodile of the Crossing! Same CMC, worst case scenario same power and dies to Bolt to boot but at least can't be killed by a lone 1+/x.

Rather use Surrak, bigger body, likely still has haste, probably gives every future body haste.

Edit: Further expanding that thought, the -1/-1 counter is a pretty big deal in a deck like this. It outright kills half the creatures in my deck, and the other half it makes them unable to contribute to board presence. I think it's a bad choice when I can just have Surrak as a 5/4 on his own. Worth noting, Surrak+Tracker play real well together.

[Fatal]

I used Timbermare as good Walker killer. It's cheap, it has haste, and have better ability then Trample.

[Brael]

I used Timbermare as good Walker killer. It's cheap, it has haste, and have better ability then Trample.

Interesting, I'll consider that one. Mistcutter Hydra is on my list if Surrak doesn't work out, but Mistcutter is something you can't GSZ (though it plays real nice with Bob and Ranger of Eos). On the other hand, pro blue is pretty relevant since it gets around TNN, Snap, Strix, and Delver.

[Fatal]

Interesting, I'll consider that one. Mistcutter Hydra is on my list if Surrak doesn't work out, but Mistcutter is something you can't GSZ (though it plays real nice with Bob and Ranger of Eos). On the other hand, pro blue is pretty relevant since it gets around TNN, Snap, Strix, and Delver.

Same is true for Timbermare adding it also DMG over Drs and any other walls like Angler, but it is also GSZable, but it has it's cost - echo is really painful, specially with such high cost in world of watelands.

[Brael]

As hoped, I was able to get a lot of Legacy in tonight. Not an official tournament, just a bunch of games, I played the above list.
5 games vs Sneak and Show, I won 4 and lost the 5th only due to messing up on a Collective Brutality. I chose discard only instead of discard+ping (pitching a useless Abrupt Decay).
2 games vs RUG Delver, I won both.
2 games vs Lands, I won both but one was a fluke (the opponents deck just didn't function).

So in games that's an 8-1 record. The deck held it's own against combo and did well against the blue midrange meta prey still.

I was very happy with it. The only card I'm still not sure on is Carnage Tyrant as he never hit the field.

[Echelon]

Well, seems you don't need it to achieve victory.

[Brael]

Well, seems you don't need it to achieve victory.

To be fair, I didn't play the matches where I would want it. But the fact that I never even wanted to cast it does say something.

Oh, and I can't stress enough how much sequencing matters. In the first RUG Delver game he's on the play, and knows what I'm playing, but I don't know his deck. He goes Misty Rainforest, pass. I open on Forest/Vet. Next turn I play a Bayou and Therapy (and miss). I see 2 lands, double daze, double stifle in hand. Fortunately, I had a second Therapy. So I waited a turn, while he played a Mongoose. Then I cast Therapy #2, He dazed, I paid, he fetched (leaving him with no untapped mana), then I fetched, causing him to not use Daze #2. Named Stifle, got both, flashbacked, took his Daze and got my Vet triggers, leaving me with 3 mana on board, which went into Toxic Deluge killing his Mongoose. And I still had a Bob+GSZ in hand to my opponents 2 lands.

That was fun.

[Echelon]

Yup, sequencing and timing (i.e. knowing when to bide your time and when to go for it) are vital.

[CCrazies]

5-0'ed a local event with a list very similar to Arianrhod's (thanks!).

4x Veteran Explorer
2x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Scavenging ooze
1x Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1x Tireless Tracker
1x Regisaur Alpha
1x Thragtusk
1x Primeval Titan
1x Carnage Tyrant

3x Cabal Therapy
1x Thoughtseize
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Burning Wish
2x Scapeshift

3x Abrupt Decay

2x Nissa, Vital Force

2x Sylvan Library
3x Pernicious Deed

4x Badlands
4x Taiga
2x Bayou
3x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Mountain
2x Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
1x Scapeshift
1x Cabal Therapy
2x Thoughtseize
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Pyroclasm
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Innocent Blood
1x Lost Legacy
2x Slaughter Games
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Pulse of Murasa
1x Tireless Tracker

I originally added the Ooze to the deck as a 61st card, before realizing it was already 61 cards. Thought it was worth having access to some graveyard hate, so added it in and moved a Tracker to the board (where it could maybe be replaced by an Eternal Witness (which could also take the place of Pulse of Murasa?) or a planeswalker like Chandra or Liliana, the Last Hope). I wasn't sure about the Bolts in the board - other than killing planeswalkers (and would one bring them in just for that?), it seemed like Fatal Push or maybe Diabolic Edict would also work. Also considered replacing a Thoughtseize with a Collective Brutality or having a Sorcerous Spyglass somewhere. With Green Sun's Zenith and Burning Wish, the number of options available to pick the last couple cards is large.

Seemed to run pretty well, given it was my first time with this version of Nic Fit. Ultimating Nissa, Vital Force is amazing.

[Echelon]

Congrats on the result!

[Brael]

Played a bit more with mine, finally saw Carnage Tyrant do something, but it was win more. In essence, thanks to the trample it took a turn off getting through an army of tokens.

Feels a bit too high a CMC though. I like having a trample option though.

Looking for alternatives, I came across the card Creeperhulk. Has anyone ever tried this? GSZ'able, reasonable enough stats, pumps your team, makes blocking real difficult for the opponent.

[vilnico]

Played a bit more with mine, finally saw Carnage Tyrant do something, but it was win more. In essence, thanks to the trample it took a turn off getting through an army of tokens.

Feels a bit too high a CMC though. I like having a trample option though.

Looking for alternatives, I came across the card Creeperhulk. Has anyone ever tried this? GSZ'able, reasonable enough stats, pumps your team, makes blocking real difficult for the opponent.

What you say about Tyrant is about what I feel about Nixilis the very few times I played him.
I didn't know Creeperhulk, and it looks like a real good target for GSZ. And Surrak can handle the Haste part.
In a sense, it's similar to Titania, although she's less interesting in your beating angle. Titania is great for lands shenanigans.

I must say you list is very interesting for its consistency aspect.

I have one curious question though. Are you happy with only 1 Deed?
On your list I would play a 2nd one rather than the Pulse. You have enough power to beat down PWs, isn't it?

[Plm]

nico : remember our match ? how well did bob fit fares VS deed ? I think that's why brael only plays one deed in bob fit :smile:

[Brael]

What you say about Tyrant is about what I feel about Nixilis the very few times I played him.
I didn't know Creeperhulk, and it looks like a real good target for GSZ. And Surrak can handle the Haste part.
In a sense, it's similar to Titania, although she's less interesting in your beating angle. Titania is great for lands shenanigans.

I must say you list is very interesting for its consistency aspect.

I have one curious question though. Are you happy with only 1 Deed?
On your list I would play a 2nd one rather than the Pulse. You have enough power to beat down PWs, isn't it?

1 Deed is fine, I like having one so that there's an option to draw it when it's good, but my list doesn't play all that great with Deed. Between Tracker, Bob, and DRS, 10 out of my ~19 creatures are weak against Deed. I actually prefer Toxic Deluge to Deed in most situations since a Deluge is better at dealing with the creatures combo decks put out. I play 1 deed as effectively my 3rd Abrupt Decay as a way to hit non creature permanents while still occasionally letting me set up a 1 sided board wipe.

Out of the 3 drop removal suite, I like Pulse the least, but it covers edge cases like Planeswalkers that the other two don't, so I go with the split on everything. If I were to drop the Pulse it would be for another Deluge.

[vilnico]

Well you two guys are oriented on a beast shell, but made different choices on the sweeper option.
While I can see it being anti-synergic for you Plm, I think Nic Fit likes to have a reset button like Brael has.
That's why I find it sensible to still play 1 or 2 Deed.

In a way, Plm you are all-in aggro, at the cost of weakening the control nature of the deck?
While Brael still keeps control options. That's a matter of gameplan/style I guess at this point.

In any case, Brael your explanation makes sense. And I agree Pulse is the weakest slot of the 3. Have you considered Yahenni's -3/-3 (forgot it's name, Revenge is it?), that lets you play a 3ccm card after that?
That could be a good replacement to Pulse?

[Brael]

While Brael still keeps control options. That's a matter of gameplan/style I guess at this point.

In any case, Brael your explanation makes sense. And I agree Pulse is the weakest slot of the 3. Have you considered Yahenni's -3/-3 (forgot it's name, Revenge is it?), that lets you play a 3ccm card after that?
That could be a good replacement to Pulse?

I like that Pulse can hit enchantments and artifacts, it (very rarely) nabs multiple cards at once too. If I were looking for just creature removal the slot would be either another Toxic Deluge, an Innocent Blood, or a To the Slaughter.

My control options aren't something I think of as control. I see it as a format tax. Decks in Legacy do powerful, degenerate things and attack on a wide axis. Successful decks need a mix of a clock, counterspells, discard/prison, and removal. The clock is non optional, that's why I'm so negative towards the durdle heavy decks. In those other three categories you need a minimum of two. If you don't interact, you won't win games. That's probably why I tend to do so well in combo heavy fields, I have much more interaction for those sorts of tricks than most Nic Fit lists do.

[Plm]

Pulse major selling point is killing planeswalker koff jace koff :tongue:

[TLK]

Looks like someone 5-0'd with the Enchantment-heavy version:

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Academy Rector
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Collective Brutality
1 Diabolic Intent
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Lingering Souls
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Cruel Reality
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Dovescape
3 Evolutionary Leap
1 Overwhelming Splendor
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sylvan Library
2 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

1 Helm of Obedience
2 Lost Legacy
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 To the Slaughter
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Sandwurm Convergence
3 Thoughtseize
2 Toxic Deluge

[Echelon]

There's a stream of it somewhere too. It's so damn funny :laugh:

Can't wait to take my own list out for a test drive!

[JackaBo]

Happy to see this deck gaining traction. Pity though, because people @ my LGS seemed to have thought i invented this deck

[pettdan]

There's a stream of it somewhere too. It's so damn funny :laugh:

Can't wait to take my own list out for a test drive!

This was posted on Reddit recently:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/205043425 [edit: tricked by Reddit, new link should be the one]

[Brael]

For one, a lot of the discussion has moved to the discord -- which has slowed this thread down a bit and the subreddit down to a crawl.


Forgot to ask about this when it was mentioned. What's the discord link?

[Kobra_D]

Forgot to ask about this when it was mentioned. What's the discord link?

https://discordapp.com/invite/RSMwwvU

I found it when they did the podcast episode and had it linked through the reddit page.

[JackaBo]

Thoughts on this list?

Deck: Legacy TideFit

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard


4 Veteran Explorer
4 Brainstorm
2 Flusterstorm
4 High Tide
3 Ponder
1 Read the Runes
4 Hatching Plans
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Perilous Research
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
4 Cunning Wish
3 Turnabout
4 Force of Will
1 Pore Over the Pages
9 Island
2 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island

Sideboard:15
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Pact of Negation
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Flusterstorm
1 Read the Runes
1 Brain Freeze
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Krosan Grip
1 Turnabout


Created with Decked Builder
http://www.deckedbuilder.com/

Edit: ok so my own thoughts. Nicfit is a great ramp engine and what deck benefits from tons of basics more than a deck that turns basics into tombs, workshops etc. This list is meant to make land drop and ramp with Explorers until it can draw 5+ cards on opponent endstep to start the fundamental turn. The deck is supposed to draw enough cards to not need to run spiral (which has the downside of drawing your opponent new counterspells). In a meta where kcommand isnt tier 1 candelabra is probably a good addition.

[Plm]

My fear is that you take a slow combo deck and try to graft in a slow ramp package (cabal and crop cost 1 while you've got 3 research and the tutors for them that cost one million mana ) and a slow CA engine. Not sure how it fits together.

As I hadn't tried it I have no idea if it's better than spannish inquisition fit.

[JackaBo]

My fear is that you take a slow combo deck and try to graft in a slow ramp package (cabal and crop cost 1 while you've got 3 research and the tutors for them that cost one million mana ) and a slow CA engine. Not sure how it fits together.

As I hadn't tried it I have no idea if it's better than spannish inquisition fit.

There's certainly some truth in that

[Cartesian]

Looks like someone 5-0'd with the Enchantment-heavy version:

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Academy Rector
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Collective Brutality
1 Diabolic Intent
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Lingering Souls
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Cruel Reality
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Dovescape
3 Evolutionary Leap
1 Overwhelming Splendor
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sylvan Library
2 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

1 Helm of Obedience
2 Lost Legacy
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 To the Slaughter
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Sandwurm Convergence
3 Thoughtseize
2 Toxic Deluge

I played this deck (with a few changes) in the challenge sunday, and got an honorable 4-2 result. Overwhelming Splendor is such a beating against almost everything.

[Jesture]

I played this deck (with a few changes) in the challenge sunday, and got an honorable 4-2 result. Overwhelming Splendor is such a beating against almost everything.

How'd you feel about the list you ran? Notably, I'm curious about the Garruks, Mirri's Guile vs Sylvan Library, and 2 Curse of Death's Hold. The sideboard also looks very different from other Enchantment Nic Fit lists, curious to know if anything overperformed / underperformed during the challenge.

List for reference:

Planeswalker (2)
2 Garruk Relentless

Creature (9)
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Academy Rector
4 Veteran Explorer

Sorcery (14)
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Collective Brutality
1 Diabolic Intent
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Lingering Souls

Instant (2)
2 Abrupt Decay

Enchantment (11)
2 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Dovescape
2 Evolutionary Leap
2 Mirri's Guile
1 Overwhelming Splendor
3 Pernicious Deed

Land (22)
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

Sideboard (15)
1 Bitterblossom
1 Choke
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Compost
2 Duress
1 Karakas
1 Replenish
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Seal of Primordium
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Toxic Deluge

[Bobmans]

I feel that Nissa Vital Force is superior in this deck over Garruk Relentless, since it is not only 'hasty' combat, it can also retrieve Enchantments or Rectors(in discard scenario's) or give a slight mana boost to hard cast the big ones. While it cannot kill creatures, it could still rebounce Deeds.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk

[JackaBo]

I feel that Nissa Vital Force is superior in this deck over Garruk Relentless, since it is not only 'hasty' combat, it can also retrieve Enchantments or Rectors(in discard scenario's) or give a slight mana boost to hard cast the big ones. While it cannot kill creatures, it could still rebounce Deeds.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk

Garruk
1) makes dorks for leap
2) kills DRS
3) kills your rector
4) sacrifices a creature to find rector

[Cartesian]

How'd you feel about the list you ran? Notably, I'm curious about the Garruks, Mirri's Guile vs Sylvan Library, and 2 Curse of Death's Hold. The sideboard also looks very different from other Enchantment Nic Fit lists, curious to know if anything overperformed / underperformed during the challenge.
Garruks were fine, it is another engine card like Lingering Souls. I dislike both Mirri's Guile and Sylvan Library actually, especially with Deed. Maybe other options could be explored. Living Wish?
2 Curse of Death's Hold: my initial thought was that this curse card comboes with two other cards in the deck, but 2 curses is also a win on their own against some fair decks, and the card is decent on its own.
Saproling Burst might be a consideration also.
SB CoP: Red has been very good, definately keeping it. SB also needs some number of white/black Leylines, but I didn't own any at the time.

[AtticusBlaqk]

Trying Again

[AtticusBlaqk]

Quick Report:



Last night at my weekly Unsanctioned LGS event, I ran the Rector Fit list that recently 5-0d a league.



Rector Fit: League 5-0


Maindeck (61)

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Academy Rector
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Lingering Souls
3 Evolutionary Leap
2 Sylvan Library
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Dovescape
1 Cruel Reality
1 Overwhelming Splendor
2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Forest
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

Sideboard (15)

1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
3 Thoughtseize
2 Lost Legacy
1 To the Slaughter
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Sandwurm Convergence

Shared via TopDecked MTG
https://www.topdecked.me/decks/8ed5958e-5adf-4f88-8dbf-0d863331b582


I finished the night at 3-1 to just steal my way into 4th.



Round 1: Dredge 1-2

This guy can be on anything and recently I've seen him playtesting miracles between rounds or after events at shops around the area. He commented before our game that his deck would be fast, either for a win or loss. I caught a glimpse of a card that he had scrawled something on and thought that I read City of Traitors. Fast deck, City of traitors, I put him on some kind of sneak attack list. Sneak and Show came to mind but in hindsight, the 'lose fast' comment doesn't make sense.

Game 1:

I'm on the play and open with Cabal Therapy naming Brainstorm. He reveals his hand and I write 'dredge' down on my scorepad. He has Mana Confluence, Faithless Looting, LED, Breakthrough, Gravetroll, (Stinkweed? He had mulliganed but I can't remember the 6th card or if he went to 5). I now know that the City was of Brass instead of being filled with Traitors. I pass in dismay and he draws for his turn. Mana Confluence, LED, cast Breakthrough, hold priority, crack LED for RRR, Do I really need to go into a lot of detail on the next few steps? Dude hit 2 bridges, 2 narcomebas and a couple therapies putting 10+ power into play and shredding my hand. I'm able to use the fetch he couldn't rip from my hand to put dryad arbor into play and sac to therapy to pop his two bridges but it was too late.

Game 2:

In 4 Leyline and 1 Helm, Out... 2 Decay, 2 Brutality, and ?

He mulligans to 5. I keep 7 with a leyline. pregame effects occur and he concedes.

Game 3:

I keep my configuration but he hits his SB heavily. He keeps 7 but I mulligan an awful 7, a reasonable game 1 hand, and keep a 5 with a leyline. He nature's claims my Leyline and i set myself up to blow up his Bridges with a fetch ready for Dryad Arbor and an Tower to sac the Dryad Arbor. I miss a land drop but I'm able to build up to 3 lands and hold my Tower for the bridges after casting a Sylvan Library off of Arbor and Forest. At this stage I need to fade a turn and get to my Deed, Rector, and GSZ in hand. Opponent triple therapies me and completely shreds my hand. He wins the game by taking the hardcast Stinkweed, hardcast Narcomeba, begin returning Ichorid line. Although I am able to tower my Arbor to hit two bridges, my next Library draws show Land + Land + GSZ. I GSZ for Explorer to shuffle the lands away but the following turn Library shows Land + Land + Evo Leap. I lose in his next combat.


Round 2: Esper Stoneblade (1-0)

Game 1:

Overwhelming Splendor is a beating and putting it into plat against Germ w/ Batterskull, TNN, and SFM feels pretty good. I hit his Germ with STP and missequence my enchantments and get a dovescapre into play without an Evo Leap. He has an active Jace TMS but I'm able to beat down Jace with a sea of Doves. He sees the line of Swords, trigger Dovescape, Force his own Swords but i return the favor with GSZ for x=6.

Game 2:

We go to turns and draw the game. Match is mine



Round 3: Sneak Fit (2-1)

Game 1:

He asked about my sneak attack list a couple of weeks ago so when he opens on Taiga + Vet Ex,I assume that he is running my 75. I swords his explorer to slow his gameplan. I slow him down enough over the next couple of turns and see his deed with one of my own. He pops his own Deed for 3 with 1 Explorer and 2 DRS in play. He then uses the new mana to play Fierce Empath and finds Inferno Titan. I rip Therapy off the top, therapy for Inferno Titan, play Academy Rector, flashback therapy, put Overwhelming spendor into play, take his Thragtusk. Its basically game over and he concedes a few turns later after realizing that the Inferno Titan he returns with an EWit is not only a 1/1 but that doesn't have ETB or Attack triggers.

Game 2:

I board in 3 Thoughtseize, 2 Lost Legacy, Sandworm Convergence and 1 to the slaughter. What I take out is embarrassing. I know that I messed up as soon as I draw 7... In the VetEx mirror I typically SB out Explorers. My plan is that I don't need to accelerate him and that I can let him accelerate both of us while i focus on dealing with his payoff cards. the 3 GSZ that I left in can only find the one Dryad Arbor. He casts sneak, sneaks Bellower, gets Empath, finds Emmy but doesn't have access to the third red. I take 6 and pray to see discard off the top... Doesn't happen and sneaking the Spaghetti monster gets it.

Game 3:

I fixed my SB and led with GSZ for Arbor on turn 1 and cast Lost Legacy for Sneak Attack on Turn 2. I lock him a few turns later with Splendor, Dovescape and Curse of death's hold for the concession.



Round 4: Grixis Delver (2-0)

This MU must be why the deck 5-0d a daily.

Game 1:

He has a reasonable start but I'm able to deed away his board early after he forces the Curse of Death's Hold. I don't recall the game entirely but it felt like Lingering Souls went a long way and then he conceded.

Game 2:

In 2 Deluge Out 2 Deed My thoughts we that these overlapped but that Deluge was a 'right now' answer instead of deed's 'later' answer. Most of the creatures that I saw in G1 (TNN Delver Pyro) all had x/1-2 so the deluge wouldn't hurt too bad. After the game I realized that Deluge was also better at answering an early angler (although he didn't see one in either game).

My opponent got flooded pretty bad and had all of his fetchable lands in play at the end of the game. I was able to really explore the value of Evo Leap in this game. Though a little early hand disruption I knew that the path was clear for Rector on 4, Diabolic Intent Sacing the Rector for Splendor, and tutoring Evo Leap. Tapping out for Leap. Ultimately I'm able lock the game up but his early stumbling on action and permission with a pyro in play worked to my advantage.


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[JackaBo]

Great report. Ive done the side out Explorers but not gsz too. Rather embarrassing as i don't even run Dryad arbor.
Next tournament i'm trying out curse if misfortunes and nyx in main, coupled with 4 Collective brutality. We'll see how it goes.

[Echelon]

Congrats with the result! Enjoyed the read!

[AtticusBlaqk]

Great report. Ive done the side out Explorers but not gsz too. Rather embarrassing as i don't even run Dryad arbor.
Next tournament i'm trying out curse if misfortunes and nyx in main, coupled with 4 Collective brutality. We'll see how it goes.

Dryad Arbor is such a must. Being able to flash it in off of a fetch to sac to Evo Leap is a great way to rebuild.

I didn't mention it in my tournament report but in Game 2 of Round 2, I had some 'great idea' and boarded it out. I immediately forgot after shuffling and presenting. Talk about a punch in the guy after fetching and going through my deck 4-5 times before checking my sideboard...


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[AtticusBlaqk]

Congrats with the result! Enjoyed the read!

Thanks! I'm glad for the community suggestion to pilot the deck this week. I was very surprised at how 'simple' the deck felt as compared to other Nic-Fit variants that I've played.


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[MDHackbert]

I went 3-2 in a league with a Jund Value pile tweaked from mriggins over in the Discord.
Videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdL9kJq17X69Lo_D8sMReO73EE2mpjRG6

Sorry that Rounds 1-3 are lackluster production. I didn't think to record live on those and apparently Therapy is bugged during replays. :mad:

[Brael]

Been discussing BUG a bit in the discord. I've been asked a lot about incorporating blue into a Bob build but every time I've looked at it, I've come to the conclusion that blue isn't actually adding anything that you can't already do. So I got to thinking about what blue could offer that style of deck and I think the answer is that it can offer as much digging while conserving life by using Jace, Vryn's Prodigy over Dark Confidant.

Some more brainstorming has lead me to the following thoughts on such a deck:
1. You need some additional graveyard action to abuse Jace.
2. You need some extra CA to offset looting vs drawing. Tracker's Instincts looks good.
3. The deck needs to be above 61 cards to maintain a proper threat count. Some quick calculations suggest 21 creatures are needed.
4. After a lot of thought, my starting point is 67 cards. Originally, I had a build that came in at 64 cards but I felt it was too weak against combo. I wanted to keep the combo advantage as much as possible that my usual decks enjoy, so I brought in the Crop Rotation package. That forced another land, which created +3 cards. I think that this is still right, the vet/therapy opening gets more rare, but there's still plenty of ways to get to 3 mana on T2 here.
5. The deck isn't built around GY interactions but there's a lot of small things here that are really cool, like being able to discard to Brutality, then flashback with Jace, or mill over a GSZ and then shuffle it back in with Jace. Eternal Witness gets to be a real strong line in here too, and I particularly like the Evoke effects with Meren.

So taking those into account, this is where I'm at right now:
Land 24
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas

Creatures 22
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Shriekmaw
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Ishakanah, Grafwidow
1 Primeval Titan

Spells 21
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Collective Brutality
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Tracker's Instinct
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Crop Rotation
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

Just as a first pass, I like how this looks, it uses blue effectively while keeping it a solid tertiary color and the threat density is moderate with a whole bunch of CA.

[Brael]

Goldfished that list a bit, and think I found some places to trim cards. I like the way it plays, lots of little interactions between cards. Here's a revised version based on those goldfish games plus what we talked about in discord. This gets the list down to 63 cards.

Land 23
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas

Creatures 20
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Shriekmaw
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Primeval Titan

Spells 20
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Collective Brutality
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Tracker's Instinct
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Crop Rotation
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

[Warlockami]

Heya, I was pointed in this direction by the legacy subreddit. Was hoping to get some thoughts and suggestions on my list. It's basically my take on the "Nyx Fit" enchantment based list I'm sure has been posted around for a while.


Land (23)
2x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor
4x Forest
2x Phyrexian Tower
2x Plains
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath

Creature (8)
4x Academy Rector
4x Veteran Explorer

Enchantment (14)
1x Cruel Reality
1x Curse of Death's Hold
1x Curse of Misfortunes
1x Dovescape
3x Evolutionary Leap
1x Living Plane
2x Mirri's Guile
1x Overwhelming Splendor
3x Pernicious Deed

Instant (4)
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Swords to Plowshares

Sorcery (12)
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Collective Brutality
1x Diabolic Intent
3x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Lingering Souls

Sideboard (15)
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Helm of Obedience
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Sandwurm Convergence
3x Thoughtseize
3x Toxic Deluge
2x Trespasser's Curse


So the big thing I was wanting some comments on is my sideboard. I feel like I might need a big beater in the side for the slower match ups or when I can't stick the enchantments. What's the consensus for this variant of the deck? I was thinking something like Sigarda, Host of Herons or Carnage Tyrant, but I've been looking at Dragonlord Dromoka as well. Additionally, I love the Trespasser's Curses against a deck like Elves, one that is jamming Young Pyromancers, or even TES since from what I've been told they go for the kill with Empty the Warrens. That being said, it seems not everyone share's my enthusiasm for the card.

I'm not huge in the Collective Brutalities, but if everyone else playing this variant says they're good I'll leave them alone.

Additionally, when talking to a friend while playtesting today, he suggested Eldritch Evolution. I kinda like it a lot in theory, especially if I could land an early rector and turn it into an Overwhelming Splendor and a Dragonlord Dromoka at the same time, for example. The problem being what spot does it take in the main, or is it side-board only?

Finally, I'm not huge on the Mirri's Guile (or the Sylvan Libraries I was running before deciding to try the M.G. out). Stellar card, but I just feel like I could do better. Perhaps that's where the Eldritch Evolution goes, and maybe a mainboard threat to use it with? (I've heard there were some people toying with Bitterheart Witch as additional Rectors. Maybe take both out and add 1 E.E. and 1 Bitterheart?)

[Echelon]

Well... I don't think the list needs Living Plane. By the time you've established your other lock pieces you gain nothing by stripping your opponent of their mana. It probably just makes your Pernicious Deeds really awkward.

As for curses vs. decks like Elves! and stuff that runs Young Pyromancer - that's why you have Curse of Death's Hold (and Overwhelming Splendor), you don't need another.

On Eldritch Evolution: You can't Eldritch Evolution Veteran Explorer into Academy Rector - you can go up to Explorer CMC + 2 which is 3, while Academy Rector's CMC is 4. Once you've resolved a Rector trigger you're well on your way to win the game, by that time you don't need the fattie anymore so why bother?

If you want a bomb to close games, go for Sigarda. It doesn't die/fold to StP/Liliana of the Veil/Karakas etc. It's a safer bet than Dromoka. You can go for Carnage Tyrant, but in most cases Sigarda works just as well but for 1 less mana. And then there are the fringe benefits of Sigarda's flying.

[JackaBo]

My deck is pretty similar. To me mirris guile is one of the best card a starting hand can have. I run 3 and wouldnt consider going down. I'd even consider running Deluge et al instead of Deed because of guile and leap.
I also agree that Planes Unfortunatly isnt necessary and i believe Convergence is unecessary in the board.

[Echelon]

Yup, Sandwurm Convergence does very little that other cards don't already take care of.

[FavoredRevenant]

So the big thing I was wanting some comments on is my sideboard. I feel like I might need a big beater in the side for the slower match ups or when I can't stick the enchantments. What's the consensus for this variant of the deck? I was thinking something like Sigarda, Host of Herons or Carnage Tyrant, but I've been looking at Dragonlord Dromoka as well. Additionally, I love the Trespasser's Curses against a deck like Elves, one that is jamming Young Pyromancers, or even TES since from what I've been told they go for the kill with Empty the Warrens. That being said, it seems not everyone share's my enthusiasm for the card.

I'm not huge in the Collective Brutalities, but if everyone else playing this variant says they're good I'll leave them alone.

Additionally, when talking to a friend while playtesting today, he suggested Eldritch Evolution. I kinda like it a lot in theory, especially if I could land an early rector and turn it into an Overwhelming Splendor and a Dragonlord Dromoka at the same time, for example. The problem being what spot does it take in the main, or is it side-board only?

Finally, I'm not huge on the Mirri's Guile (or the Sylvan Libraries I was running before deciding to try the M.G. out). Stellar card, but I just feel like I could do better. Perhaps that's where the Eldritch Evolution goes, and maybe a mainboard threat to use it with? (I've heard there were some people toying with Bitterheart Witch as additional Rectors. Maybe take both out and add 1 E.E. and 1 Bitterheart?)

Since this version specifically has such a huge reliance on "dies" triggers, it's probably pretty soft to Rest in Peace out of the board. I think I'd want the other 2 Abrupt Decay somewhere in the 75 as a way to answer it and similar hate cards from decks that can counter or remove your Deeds before you can use them. That's just my $0.02.

[drude1]

Greetings!

Long time legacy player, usually playing painter variants but academy rector has always been a pet card of mine as well. So, saw the nyx fit deck floating around and have been playing with it. Actually played it in my LGS last week and got CRUSHED! Since then I've decided to meld nyx fit with a traditional nic fit list and have had some success. Bad news is you can't string rectors together as well as you can with leap, but I also don't get run over by a force of will. I feel like the nyx fit decks needs more threats, and with this deck I've been just dropping threat after threat and opponents get overwhelmed. They either are busy dealing with fatties and suddenly get wrecked by a powerful enchantment out of nowhere, or vice versa. Anyway, this is the list I've been playing with some success. Looking for input from people who have a lot of experienced with the deck.


// Lands
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Savannah
1 [JGC] Karakas
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
2 [US] Phyrexian Tower
1 [SHM] Mistveil Plains
3 [DPA] Forest (1)
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [UNH] Swamp
2 [B] Bayou
4 [KTK] Windswept Heath
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor

// Creatures
4 [UD] Academy Rector
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
2 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
2 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
1 [KTK] Siege Rhino
1 [AVR] Sigarda, Host of Herons

// Spells
2 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [EMN] Collective Brutality
3 [PS] Diabolic Intent
1 [TE] Diabolic Edict
2 [ISD] Garruk Relentless/Garruk, the Veil-Cursed
1 [AKH] Cast Out
1 [ISD] Curse of Death's Hold
1 [DIS] Dovescape
1 [HOU] Overwhelming Splendor
3 [EMA] Green Sun's Zenith

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 2 [LG] Sylvan Library
SB: 1 [RTR] Golgari Charm
SB: 1 [VI] City of Solitude
SB: 2 [C13] Toxic Deluge
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity

As for the more common nyx fit list that people are playing, it seems fragile. If I were to go back to that list, I probably would consider playing bitterheart witch as well and then play 2-3 cavern of souls on human. The nice thing about bitterheart is that deathrite doesn't shut it down. That card is everywhere right now and rector obviously sucks when an opponent has an active deathrite.

[JackaBo]

As for the more common nyx fit list that people are playing, it seems fragile. If I were to go back to that list, I probably would consider playing bitterheart witch as well and then play 2-3 cavern of souls on human. The nice thing about bitterheart is that deathrite doesn't shut it down. That card is everywhere right now and rector obviously sucks when an opponent has an active deathrite.

I think i would rather run more curse of misfortunes if i wanted increase threat density - which i may want. But i do run 4 therapy and 4 brutality so fow is not the biggest problem.
I dont hate your idea with semi-rector semi-creatures and would like to hear about your experiences further on.

[drude1]

I think i would rather run more curse of misfortunes if i wanted increase threat density - which i may want. But i do run 4 therapy and 4 brutality so fow is not the biggest problem.
I dont hate your idea with semi-rector semi-creatures and would like to hear about your experiences further on.

The issue isn't so much about having extra threats as it is about clogging up the board and interacting with the opponent. It's much easier to just drop bigger fatties than my opponent and make them deal with them vs trying to go purely combo and get beat down by my opponent's puny creatures.

[Echelon]

You do risk ending up being a poor version of either though. Nyx Fit's plan is strong enough to stand on its own. You just have to play differently from Rhino Fit. Instead of creating a board state and increase pressure you're trying to pull off a combo, basically. That requires a far more defensive and deliberate style of playing.

[Navsi]

As for the more common nyx fit list that people are playing, it seems fragile. If I were to go back to that list, I probably would consider playing bitterheart witch as well and then play 2-3 cavern of souls on human. The nice thing about bitterheart is that deathrite doesn't shut it down. That card is everywhere right now and rector obviously sucks when an opponent has an active deathrite.

Active Deathrite only shuts down Rector if they have an open green source, remember. They often don't, especially 4 colour builds.

[drude1]

Active Deathrite only shuts down Rector if they have an open green source, remember. They often don't, especially 4 colour builds.Well yes, of course. But any decent legacy player with green Mana available is going to leave it up. In the mean time you are getting slammed in the face by delver, Leovold and any other creature they have on the board and there isn't much you can do about it. I just think it makes more sense to go after your opponent from more angles. Maybe a heavy Planeswalker build would be another option. That way you could still play the basic engine of nyx fit but not be so dependent on rector triggers.

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[Brael]

Well yes, of course. But any decent legacy player with green Mana available is going to leave it up. In the mean time you are getting slammed in the face by delver, Leovold and any other creature they have on the board and there isn't much you can do about it. I just think it makes more sense to go after your opponent from more angles. Maybe a heavy Planeswalker build would be another option. That way you could still play the basic engine of nyx fit but not be so dependent on rector triggers.

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Nyx and Walkers are very different builds. We were discussing PW's briefly a bit in discord last night. One of the issues with a PW build, is that no one has ever figured out what the right build for it is. I definitely think there's one out there, but I think the current PW build which is SFM+combat walkers is the wrong way to go about it.

[Echelon]

And then there's the issue of mana curves. Running Rectors AND a good chunk of PWs bloats your curve way too much. At that point you digress to resolve a Veteran Explorer trigger around turn 2-3 or die.

Anyways, there also was some talk on the Discord about applying the SE method to Nyx Fit so let's see if we can get this off the ground. If we do, this is the itinerary for the coming week:
- Monday: Requirements modeling
- Tuesday: Requirements modeling
- Wednesday: Card evaluation and making a start for the list
- Thursday: Card evalutaion and brewing the main chunk of the list
- Friday: Finalizing the list and adding the SB

I'll be guiding the process and keeping track of requirements as we go.

A couple of pointers:
- Once the requirements model is defined, no concessions are made unless abolutely necessary
- This list isn't about what we want to play, it is about what we should play. No cards are omitted b/c of personal dislike, only b/c they do not meet requirements
- For deckbuilding purposes, Dryad Arbor is to be considered strictly as a creature and not a land

To get things started, I'd like some requirements for...
- Number of cards that can interact with the opponent
- Number of combo pieces
- Number of card advantage/selection cards
- A mana curve
- The manabase

To start, some obvious constraints:
- No card that we want to actually cast may cost more than 6 mana (although we might want to tighten this constraint, since we're not on a regular Nic Fit build)
- No more than one card we want to cast may cost 6 mana
- No more than two cards we want to cast may cost 5 or more mana (this means a max of 2 5 and/or 6-drops we intend to cast)
- No more than seven cards we want to cast may cost 4 or more mana
- The manabase must consist of at least 22 lands
- The manabase must contain at least 14 initial green sources
- The manabase must contain at least 14 initial black sources
- The manabase must contain at least 13 initial white sources

[Navsi]

To get things started, I'd like some requirements for...
- Number of cards that can interact with the opponent
- Number of combo pieces
- Number of card advantage/selection cards
- A mana curve
- The manabase

To start, some obvious constraints:
- No card that we want to actually cast may cost more than 6 mana (although we might want to tighten this constraint, since we're not on a regular Nic Fit build)
- No more than one card we want to cast may cost 6 mana
- No more than two cards we want to cast may cost 5 or more mana (this means a max of 2 5 and/or 6-drops we intend to cast)
- No more than seven cards we want to cast may cost 4 or more mana
- The manabase must consist of at least 22 lands
- The manabase must contain at least 14 initial green sources
- The manabase must contain at least 14 initial black sources
- The manabase must contain at least 13 initial white sources

I think applying restrictions to mana costs before determining how we're going to set up the mana base is going about things in the wrong order. We might end up in the same place anyway, but I don't think this is the starting point we should be going for here. I'd aim for something like this instead:

- Deck should be capable of resolving a Rector trigger if undisrupted by turn 4 at the latest 80% of the time
- Deck should be capable of resolving a Rector trigger if undisrupted by turn 3 at the latest 50% of the time
- Deck should be capable of resolving a Rector trigger against a single piece of disruption by turn 4 at the latest 50% of the time
- Single rector trigger should end the game against at least 40% of the metagame
- Single rector trigger should put us heavily advantaged against at least 80% of the metagame
- Two rector triggers should end the game against at least 80% of the metagame
- Three rector triggers should end the game against 99% of the metagame
- Deck should should be able to stabilize / disrupt until turn 4 against each meta deck 60% of the time

Mana restrictions can be extrapolated from needing to have a Rector and sacrifice outlet on board by turn 3-4.

Interaction requirements can be split up by deck. Against Burn our minimum disruption to reach turn 4 is probably something like one blocker and either two removal/discard effects or a Collective Brutality. Against Storm or S&T it's probably two discard effects. Elves is probably a spot removal or discard effect and either a sweeper or two more removal spells.

[Echelon]

Interaction requirements can be split up by deck. Against Burn our minimum disruption to reach turn 4 is probably something like one blocker and either two removal/discard effects or a Collective Brutality. Against Storm or S&T it's probably two discard effects. Elves is probably a spot removal or discard effect and either a sweeper or two more removal spells.

I read interaction/disruption w/ specific roles. I like it. It probably suffices to make a distinction between creature spot removal, creature sweepers and hand disruption. The target of those should be "number cast before the start of your fourth turn", so for hypergeometric distribution we're working with n in 9 cards (assuming a card drawn on T2 and T3) out of a 60/61 card pool.

Edit: And since those cards need to be cast on 3 mana or less, this gives us the following constraint:
- Cards considered interaction/disruption of any sort must cost 3 or less mana
- 2/3rd of cards considered interaction/disruption of any sort much cost 2 or less mana

We could expand on this by defining X chance to have cast at least 1 on turn 2 & Y chance to have cast at least 2 on turn 3.

I guess we can make the assumption we'll always have the mana needed to cast something on T2 and T3. That way we can pick a percentage we're comfortable with for the various turns and find the corresponding numbers via a hypergeometric distribution table.

[Navsi]

All right, so I've done some maths. Currently I've just been looking at Rector triggers, since that's the core of the deck and the most complicated part.

I've been quite loose with these numbers. Actual odds are lower.

P(Enchant) - odds of getting a rector trigger

P(Enchant) = P(Rector in hand) x P(4 mana available) x P(White mana available) x P(Sac outlet)

---

For the odds of a Rector in hand, I've just looked at odds of naturally drawing one, or Leaping into one.

P(Rector in hand) = P(draw Rector) OR P(Leap hit)

The odds of drawing Rector, if we run 4, are 52% (10 cards) or 48% (9 cards).

P(Leap hit) = (Rectors / Total creatures) x P(draw Leap) x P(Green mana available) x P(Fodder available)

Fodder is anything we can feed to Leap. I was looking at Souls and Explorer and Zenith, which already puts us at 86%. Adding fetchlands for Arbor will increase it more, but I cba trying to do that maths.

We can't Explorer for green mana because we need it first so it's linear - 92% if we have 14 sources and 9 cards drawn.

If we run 9 creatures and 4 Leaps:

P(Leap hit) = (4/9) x 48% x 92% x 85% = 17%

P(Rector in hand) = 48% OR 17% = 56%

This is the biggest roadblock / lowest pecentage of the four. Only 56% odds of actually having a rector to sacrifice, combined with any interaction the opponent has, is something of a problem. More filtering or tutoring would help a lot.

---

P(Sac outlet) = P(Tower) OR P(Leap) OR P(Therapy)

If we have Leap or Tower we need an additional mana from elsewhere to compensate for the effect's mana cost / use of a land drop. However, if we do have spare mana, other removal spells could also do the job.

If we run two Towers, four Therapy and four Leap:

P(Tower) = 28%
P(Therapy) = 48%
P(Leap) = 48%

P(Sac Outlet) = 81%

---

P(White mana available) = P(white land) OR P(explorer trigger)

P(Explorer trigger) = P(Explorer or Zenith) x P(Sac Outlet) x P(Green mana)

If we run 4 Explorer and 4 Zenith:

P(Explorer trigger) = (48% OR 48%) x 81% x 92% = 54%

P(White mana available) = 92% OR 54% = 96%

---

P(4 mana) - this is the awkward bit. If we have only 3 turns to make land drops in:

P(4 mana) = P(3 lands including Tower) OR P(2 lands and Explorer trigger) OR P(3 lands and Zenith)

P(3 lands including Tower) = P(2 non tower lands) x P(Tower) x P(Fodder creature)

If we run 23 lands and 2 Towers:

P(3 lands including Tower) = 89% x 27% x 86% = 21%

P(2 lands and Explorer trigger) = P(2+ lands) x P(Explorer trigger)

P(2 lands and Explorer trigger) = 92% x 54% = 50%

P(3 lands and Zenith) = P(3+ lands) x P(Zenith) x P(Green mana) x P(No Arbor)

P(3 lands and Zenith) = 74% x 48% x 92% x 85% = 28%

P(4 mana) = 50% OR 21% OR 28% = 72%

-

If we can make a 4th land drop, we can add on the odds of just hitting 4 lands, which brings us up to 83%.

---

P(Enchant) = P(Rector in hand) x P(4 mana available) x P(White mana available) x P(Sac outlet)

P(Enchant) = 56% x 72% x 96% x 81% = 32%

If we want to increase these numbers, we want either more acceleration, or more ways of finding Rector. Preferably the latter. Note that even if we got P(Rector in hand) all the way up to 100%, we'd still only have 65% odds of getting a trigger on turn four. Improving our ramp is the other place to be looking.

I might run some numbers on whether Eladamri's Call helps our numbers much.

[Echelon]

Awesome post! I'll update the model in the morning and continue development from there.

[ThisIsNilla]

So I brought Nyx Fit to a side event at GP Jersey with this list:

MB
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Academy Rector
2 Bayou
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Collective Brutality
1 Cruel Reality
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Dovescape
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Evolutionary Leap
4 Forest
2 Garruk Relentless
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Lingering Souls
1 Overwhelming Splendor
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
2 Sylvan Library
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Windswept Heath

SB
1 Bitterblossom
1 Choke
2 Ground Seal
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
2 Toxic Deluge

Games were:

Grixis Delver: 0-2

Mull to 5 game 1. mull to 6 game 2, opponent told me he just kept ripping every answer he had, games went quick.

Nic Fit Walkers: 1-1-1

Game one got out Cruel Reality, Overwhelming Splendor, and Curse of death's hold. He had out a Nichol Bolas God Pharaoh. Kept ripping walkers to save the bolas from cruel reality, he got to ultimate it, and I scooped for time.

Game two got out an early cruel reality, he only had Nicol Bolas out. Then a dovescape followed by a GSZ X=7 sealed the deal.

At this point time was called and we decided playing 5 turns was useless so we took the draw

Miracles: 2-0

Game one, was able to get out an early cruel reality which sealed it vs a jace and not much else.

Game two, Garruk was an allstar here. Kept making 2/2 wolves. Sooner or later I landed a dovescape and was able to win a bird war.

BUG Delver: 2-1

Game one: Was able to therapy his hand to nothing, taking a FOW, and then saccing an explorer to get two goyfs on the second half. He played a Tomb Stalker, I was able to get out a cruel reality off of a rector game was over.

Game two: Mulled to a 6, he overwhelmed me with creatures, forced a deed, couldnt find a rector to splendor

Game three: We got to a board state when I had an explorer, 2 spirits, and a deed on the board. He had a library and two delvers. I have him down to two, and am waiting for him to tap so he doesn't have BG open because I played him earlier in the day and he blew me out with golgari charm giving his guys regeneration. At this point he extracted my rectors and my lingering souls. I get an opportunity to pop my deed and clear the board. Next turn I rip a land, fetch, and jam a reality. He forces it, and when we go to make note of life totals we realize he killed himself.


All in all I think the main deck is pretty good right now, it has enough "need to answer" things that it can make it through a lot of counter spells, and once a leap is in play it pretty much just flows. I think the sideboard could definitely use some work though.

If you guys have any questions let me know, sorry for the fuzzy report, we ended at 10, after being there since 9 my brain was super fuzzy at the time. I had a ton of fun playing the deck and definitely think it can hang with the big boys in the format.

[Plm]

Impressive work here !

Some things to consider : crop rotation count as sac outlet and interaction, some split of green sun zenith and other tutor (in order to get rector in hand) like intent or eldamri's call.

Keep going :smile:

[Echelon]

@Navsi: To get to the consistency we want, we can define the number of ramp/tutor (i.e. Rector copies) as requirements and figure out how to fill those in later.

For now I'm thinking of the following (since we pretty much must have one of each in order to hit our goal):
- The list must contain at least 12 "copies" of Academy Rector (this puts us on just over 90% chance of having it on turn 4)
- The list must contain at least 12 sac outlets

To hit each of our land drops the first three turns (assuming we'll always want a ramp card in there somewhere), hypergeometric distribution suggests we run 23 lands (although 22 lands yields only a .56 percent less chance of hitting them. I'm comfortable with that).
- The list must contain at least 22 lands

And since at least one of them must be green:
- The list must contain at least 14 initial green manasources

Ideally we do want a ramp card in there somewhere and I think the latest it can hit the field is around turn 3, so:
- The list must contain at least 13 ramp cards (putting us on just over 90% chance of having it on turn 3)

The next thing we need to figure out is how many spot removal/sweepers/hand disruption this list needs in order to survive long enough. This'll give us the requirements for those.

Edit: This might bleed into sideboard requirements a bit. There's no way in hell we can jam all that in the main 60/61.

Edit 2: We also have to start considering card velocity.

[Navsi]

@Navsi: To get to the consistency we want, we can define the number of ramp/tutor (i.e. Rector copies) as requirements and figure out how to fill those in later.

For now I'm thinking of the following (since we pretty much must have one of each in order to hit our goal):
- The list must contain at least 12 "copies" of Academy Rector (this puts us on just over 90% chance of having it on turn 4)
- The list must contain at least 12 sac outlets

To hit each of our land drops the first three turns (assuming we'll always want a ramp card in there somewhere), hypergeometric distribution suggests we run 23 lands (although 22 lands yields only a .56 percent less chance of hitting them. I'm comfortable with that).
- The list must contain at least 22 lands

And since at least one of them must be green:
- The list must contain at least 14 initial green manasources

Ideally we do want a ramp card in there somewhere and I think the latest it can hit the field is around turn 3, so:
- The list must contain at least 13 ramp cards (putting us on just over 90% chance of having it on turn 3)

The next thing we need to figure out is how many spot removal/sweepers/hand disruption this list needs in order to survive long enough. This'll give us the requirements for those.

Note that if we run additional filtering options (like Library, Guile or similar) we can increase our odds of drawing Rectors without needing tutors or wishes. Getting to see ~12 cards rather than 10 (7 hand + 3 drawn + 2 Library trigger) helps our odds.

If we run 4 library effects we have 52% odds of getting one in the opening hand. If we draw one, we get to see two additional cards, up to 12 - but one of those 12 cards is 'taken', so functionally we have 11 'available' cards when determining the odds of seeing any single other card from the deck. Painful Truths lets us see three new cards rather than two.

Worldly Tutor is a source of Rectors, but if we draw a copy we functionally have one less card, so it reduces our opportunities to draw everything else. If we draw (and cast) 0.5 worldly tutors per game, the number of cards we see is reduced by 0.5 effectively.

[Echelon]

This stuff is giving me a headache, lol.

Edit: It does show that adding (cheap) card selection add a lot of consistency to the deck, in every regard. Which is logical, b/c that's why every blue deck starts w/ 4 Brainstorm & 4 Ponder. Funnily enough cutting card selection/advantage is one of the first things most non-blue players/lists do "b/c it's underwhelming" while in fact it's the glue that holds the deck together.

[Navsi]

Basically, if we want reasonable odds of a rector trigger we need sources of Rectors and sources of sac outlets.

Possible rector tutors:
Leap
Diabolic Intent
Living Wish
Eladamri's Call
Recruiter of the Guard
Worldly Tutor

Possible sac outlets:
Therapy
Tower
Leap
Diabolic Intent
Living Wish (for Tower or Rusalka or whatever)
Starved Rusalka (via Zenith)

Therapy is definitely in. Towers are Ramp + Sac Outlet which is great.

Leap and Wish are both Rector + Sac Outlet in one card. Wish gets us Rector faster whereas Leap can do both at the same time and has other synergies. I think we are probably on one or the other of these, since moving a Rector to the SB for Wish makes our Leaps less likely to hit.

Rusalka via Zenith is probably worth it, especially if we're on the Wish plan, since it gives us a lot more sacrifice outlets. Therapy + Tower + Wishes + Zeniths + Rusalka might get us there reasonably well. Intent is also potentially an option, since it's another Sac Outlet + Rector source.

For reference:

3 Rector
4 Explorer
4 Zenith
4 Therapy
4 Wish
2 Souls
2 Intent
1 Rusalka
1 Arbor
3 Painful Truths
25 lands (14/14/14, 2 Tower)

By turn 4 (10 cards drawn naturally, 10.8 cards seen on average):

Puts us at:
P(Rector): 82%
P(4 mana): 94%
P(White mana): 98%
P(Sac Outlet): 96%

P(Enchant): 74%

I don't think we are going to get it much higher than that. Current build:

4 Rector
4 Explorer
4 Leap
4 Souls
4 Therapy
4 Zenith
1 Rusalka
1 Arbor
2 Guile/Library
1 Intent
23 lands (14/14/14, 2 Tower)

Stats:
P(Rector): 63%
P(4 Mana): 91%
P(White mana): 98%
P(Sac Outlet): 94%

P(Enchant): 53%

Note that the Leap build has significantly more inevitability because if your first Leap 'misses', you can keep using it to dig more. I don't think the build above is necessarily any better - it would probably crumble to disruption, since very few of the cards are X for 1s like Leap and Souls are. The advantage of the Leap build is that it still has reasonable odds of getting a fast enchantment out, but if it doesn't the deck still actually does something.

Edit:


It does show that adding (cheap) card selection add a lot of consistency to the deck, in every regard. Which is logical, b/c that's why every blue deck starts w/ 4 Brainstorm & 4 Ponder. Funnily enough cutting card selection/advantage is one of the first things most non-blue players/lists do "b/c it's underwhelming" while in fact it's the glue that holds the deck together.

Card selection doesn't actually help all that much. Cutting the 2 Libraries or Guiles from the standard Nyx build and replacing them with blank cards reduces P(Enchant) by approximately 1.5%. Basically each Library/Guile we add improves our odds by about 0.75%. In comparison, each copy of Eladamri's Call we add increases our odds by around 4% - Intent gives 5%, at the expense of vulnerability to disruption. Our odds of getting a turn 3 or 4 Rector trigger are actually a bit higher if we replaced our Mirri's Guiles with third and fourth copies of Phyrexian Tower. Obviously it does other things later on, but in terms of early effect it improves our odds of everything slightly, but has nowhere near the impact of most of the other combo pieces.

[Echelon]

The framework so far does leave room for interaction/disruption though (somewhat surprisingly).

I think we do need to mind the manacosts of the cards we add, regardless of impact for goal achievement percentages. That way we aren't so soft to disruption and make the plan a bit more flexible. If we have to do all the things on T2, there are limitations to what we can and cannot do (which also hampers our ability to achieve our goal on a certain turn). Card velocity matters, even if that means we have to run less powerful/impactful cards.

[Ulysse95]

I'm investigating wish options too.
I think leap+wish can still be coexistent. You can swap the "missing" rector by a witch for exemple if you're concerned by the leap's doing.

Edit: a big + is that we're not dead on a surgical...

[Echelon]

Or should you put a Witch in the SB since it's basically a worse Rector?

[Navsi]

Or should you put a Witch in the SB since it's basically a worse Rector?

The Sideboard option probably shouldn't be the Witch, since 50% of your rector/witch triggers would be that card, and not finding dovescape is awkward (and Wish is already mana intensive, so 4 -> 5 is an issue).

[Echelon]

True, as is the point on Surgical.

[Arianrhod]

Haven't been posting here much bc discord, but I wanted to mention something potentially important about moving towards Living Wish (which I don't think is a bad option at all, incidentally, as long as the deck space works out). If we opt for Wish over Leap, then I think that puts Starfield back on the table as an option. Starfield + Deed is still incredibly strong, let's not forget -- we just moved away from Deed a bit with the advent of Leap+Souls. Starfield additionally lets us have a way to get back big enchantments if something bad happens -- discard, counter, random destruction (unlikely but possible).

If Starfield is an option again, then we might want to consider looking into how the math changes if we run some number of Cast Outs, which can be cycled cheaply and then returned with Nyx. I'm not sure on Cast Out since it doesn't feel super relevant most of the time, I'm just asking the question since it would let us play a smaller deck, functionally.

Side relevance: if we move to Wish over Leap, that also lets us have Green Sun targets again, which in turn makes us want to run the full 4 Zeniths again, which also would increase our consistency a bit.

There's definitely a lot to like that -- but there is also the downside that without Leap, we are substantially less broken. It becomes much harder to get the 2nd Rector trigger, which is something that I think needs to be a concern in the math. Nyx Fit has been successful because it is efficient at resolving not one trigger, but two -- assembling a lock of some kind to functionally end the game. Just one trigger is likely not sufficient against most opponents.

A couple brief mentions for the discussion -- as I've mentioned in the discord, I made a large number of changes to the build I was tinkering around with, including three which have all overperformed: a miser's Crop Rot, the Starved Rusalka, and maindecking Sandwurm Convergence over Cruel Reality.

I think that Sandwurm is better maindeck because of two reasons: it forms a backup lock with Dovescape against spell-heavy decks, and it combos well with Evolutionary Leap. Now, if we end up moving away from Leap, that might change my opinion there -- but, we'll see. Sandwurm has been very good for me, while Cruel was always kind of mediocre in my personal experience. Of course, Cruel is another curse for Bitterheart, so, if we end up with like 3 Rector 1 Bitterheart maindeck, that might be a compelling reason to stick with Cruel, as well.

[Echelon]

I'm unsure about Starfield and Cast Out. It makes the curve even more top heavy than it already is.

As for Living Wish - I like the engine function of Evolutionary Leap, so I don't know if I want to drop Leap for Wish. I mean, if we start adding more creatures we'll want a creature back-up plan and say a QPM to turn GSZ into interaction and so on. At what point do we devolve back to Junk Fit with some Rectors and crazy enchantments (hyperboling a bit here, obviously)?

It might be the better plan since it gives you a secondary angle of attack, but then consistency for the combo just goes out the window. You'll probably end up with a deck that's both a bad Junk Fit list and a bad Nyx Fit list.

[Arianrhod]

I'm unsure about Starfield and Cast Out. It makes the curve even more top heavy than it already is.

As for Living Wish - I like the engine function of Evolutionary Leap, so I don't know if I want to drop Leap for Wish. I mean, if we start adding more creatures we'll want a creature back-up plan and say a QPM to turn GSZ into interaction and so on. At what point do we devolve back to Junk Fit with some Rectors and crazy enchantments (hyperboling a bit here, obviously)?

It might be the better plan since it gives you a secondary angle of attack, but then consistency for the combo just goes out the window. You'll probably end up with a deck that's both a bad Junk Fit list and a bad Nyx Fit list.

Entirely possible, but, leave no stone unturned imo.

Of note: Garruk Relentless does help turn a Rector into a second Rector, along with his other duties of killing Deathrites, blocking forever, and making fodder for Leap (if we stay on Leap). It is also worth considering that in a more traditional junk list that has a Nyx core transplanted into it, that Diabolic Intent (which also sets up the 2nd rector) gets much, much, MUCH better.

Like, this was one of my earliest actually competitive builds, which my friend Steve got 12th at an SCG with in 2012:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Starved Rusalka
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
3 Academy Rector
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
1 Sun Titan

1 Diabolic Intent
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vindicate
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy

1 Faith's Fetters
1 Moat
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Scrubland
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Savannah
2 Swamp
3 Bayou
3 Forest
3 Plains
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

sb:
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Humility
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Raking Canopy
3 Extirpate
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Memoricide
1 Nether Void

We look at something like that now and kind of recoil a bit (or at least I do) -- but it did work, and there might be lessons to be learned in it -- not the least of which being that the deck space DOES exist for a Nyx core to fit into a junk shell.

[Echelon]

Perhaps we should just jam 4 Diabolic Intent... We have enough fodder. Demonic Tutor is an ok-ish card.

[Arianrhod]

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Starved Rusalka
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
2 Tireless Tracker
3 Academy Rector
1 Bitterheart Witch

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Living Wish
1 Diabolic Intent

2 Abrupt Decay

2 Garruk Relentless

2 Mirri's Guile
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Dovescape
1 Overwhelming Splendor
1 Cruel Reality

2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

sb::
1 Karakas
1 High Market
1 Academy Rector
1 Walking Ballista
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Swords to Plowshares

This is something like what I'm thinking. Super rough, might be awful, but kind of encapsulates the idea a bit better (in a modern context) of a Nyx core within a Junk shell.

[Ralf]

Hey,

I know everybody is speaking of Nyx Fit but as you have also expressed "feelings" about Living Wish, I took the opportunity to jump in to get a few feedbacks/ideas:
1) About the MD
2) About targets' option for Living Wish

BANT Nic Fit

1 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Veteran Explorer

2 Sylvan Library
3 Ground Seal

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Perilous Research

2 Council of Judgment
2 Supreme Verdict
3 Living Wish
4 Ponder

1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Forest
3 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
1 Tundra

SB: 1 Sigarda, Host of Herons -> For liliana deck and other edict type of decks
SB: 1 Stoneforge Mystic -> Good stuff
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Mystic Enforcer -> Strix / Marit / Grisel
SB: 1 Obstinate Baloth -> Liliana / discard / burn / Tempo
SB: 1 Karakas -> Unfair demon
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Dragonlord Dromoka -> Tempo decks (almost unbeatable if resolved)
SB: 1 Glen Elendra Archmage -> Combo deck
SB: 1 Trygon Predator -> Enchant / Arto
SB: 1 Disenchant

This deck is in test and so far showing promising results.

Any food for thought would be much appreciated !

Regards,

Ralf

[Brael]

I can see where Intent has value, but the 2nd copy is much worse than the first, the third and fourth are worse than that. So probably only one is viable.

I was actually thinking Enlightened Tutor, Navsi had a similar idea with Sterling Grove. One is lower on the curve, the other offers some protection and synergy with Starfield. Maybe a mix of both would be proper.

From a quick look through enchantments, there's a new card Legion's Landing that could be tutored for a creature to Leap with, without filling a creature slot in the deck, similar to what Lingering Souls is doing, except you could tutor for it. It could also come back from Starfield, and eventually flips to win the Dovescape war, though I imagine it wouldn't flip often. If you go this route you could include Utopia Sprawl or Wild Growth for ramp, as they're pretty safe if sitting on a basic. Doing so helps with Leap hits and makes them more powerful, it also means you would need fewer GSZ's. I question if you would even want Vet at that point.

[Brael]

Hey,

I know everybody is speaking of Nyx Fit but as you have also expressed "feelings" about Living Wish, I took the opportunity to jump in to get a few feedbacks/ideas:

I've been playing with both Tracker's Instincts and Search for Azcanta lately as alternative CA engines. At first I tried a mashup, but the deeper down the rabbit hole I've gone, the more it's become obvious that these are two different builds. I like them both as BUG options, but I'll discuss the Azcanta build here.

A loose skeleton for the deck probably looks like: 23 lands, 22 spells, 16 creatures.

I think a crucial part of keeping the threat density high enough though, is in using spells that convert to creatures. GSZ is obvious, but more is needed. One thing to keep in mind here is that Tireless Tracker loses a lot of equity. Azcanta represents a 4 mana/turn investment, which is equal to 2 clues/turn. It's more mana than Tracker is, so the two stack poorly. It also places more pressure on keeping the rest of the curve low, as 7 mana means you only have 3 to Azcanta+play. So your cards need to be in the 1-2 range.

So, how this is relevant to your post... I think Living Wish is a key card as it's a spell that exchanges for a creature.

Here's what I'm thinking for an initial decklist
23 Lands
My usuals

16 Creatures
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Dark Confidant
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Eternal Witness

22 Spells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Search for Azcanta
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Living Wish
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Collective Brutality
2 Crop Rotation

Sideboard 15
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Carpet of Flowers
4 Lost Legacy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Carnage Tyrant
1 Eternal Witness
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Duress
1 Pithing Needle

[Echelon]

Alrighty. It's wednesday - card evaluation and starting on the list day

Our requirements up until now (compiling from several posts here):
- The manabase must consist of at least 22 lands
- The manabase must contain at least 14 initial green sources
- The manabase must contain at least 14 initial black sources
- The manabase must contain at least 13 initial white sources
- Deck should be capable of resolving a Rector trigger if undisrupted by turn 4 at the latest 80% of the time
- Deck should be capable of resolving a Rector trigger if undisrupted by turn 3 at the latest 50% of the time
- Deck should be capable of resolving a Rector trigger against a single piece of disruption by turn 4 at the latest 50% of the time
- Single rector trigger should end the game against at least 40% of the metagame
- Single rector trigger should put us heavily advantaged against at least 80% of the metagame
- Two rector triggers should end the game against at least 80% of the metagame
- Three rector triggers should end the game against 99% of the metagame
- Deck should should be able to stabilize / disrupt until turn 4 against each meta deck 60% of the time
- The list must contain at least 12 "copies" of Academy Rector
- The list must contain at least 12 sac outlets
- The list must contain at least 13 ramp cards

The list isn't quite comprehensive, but so be it. We're still missing concrete requirements concerning our mana curve and disruption/interaction suite. Let's call it @6 discard, 6 spotremoval and 3 sweepers. So:
- The list must contain at least 6 discard spells
- The list must contain at least 6 spotremoval spells
- The list must contain at least 3 sweepers

It probably isn't exactly on the money, but I want to keep this project on track. Time to start working on a list.

Edit: The "Deck should be able to do X"-requirements are basically covered by the "The list must contain X" requirements, so let's simplify our requirements model to the following list:
- The manabase must consist of at least 22 lands
- The manabase must contain at least 14 initial green sources
- The manabase must contain at least 14 initial black sources
- The manabase must contain at least 13 initial white sources
- Single rector trigger should end the game against at least 40% of the metagame
- Single rector trigger should put us heavily advantaged against at least 80% of the metagame
- Two rector triggers should end the game against at least 80% of the metagame
- Three rector triggers should end the game against 99% of the metagame
- Deck should should be able to stabilize / disrupt until turn 4 against each meta deck 60% of the time
- The list must contain at least 12 "copies" of Academy Rector
- The list must contain at least 12 sac outlets
- The list must contain at least 13 ramp cards
- The list must contain at least 6 discard spells
- The list must contain at least 6 spotremoval spells
- The list must contain at least 3 sweepers

[Navsi]

Getting undisrupted Rector triggers to happen with any consistency is going to be the difficult point.

If we're looking at a standard Leap list:

4x Explorer, Zenith, Leap, Souls, Therapy
2x Guile/Library/Night's Whisper, Phyrexian Tower
1x Intent, Rusalka, Arbor
23 Lands, 8 fetches - 14/14/14

P(Enchant) on turn 3 (9 cards drawn) is 47%. On the draw (10 cards seen), it's 56%.

If we want to get our Play-side turn 3 numbers above 50%, we need one additional filtering, tutoring or ramp option.

Note that our odds are actually lower, since if we are going off on turn three we have a lot more trouble actually trying to Leap for Rector or cast card advantage spells, since they put more constraints on our mana. Just because we have 15% odds of being able to activate Leap (combined odds of a Leap in hand, creature available, and green mana up) doesn't mean we'll have the mana to do so and also find a Rector. However, trying to model that is not something I have the time to do currently.

---

The difficult bit is going to be getting turn-4 rector odds above 80%. I think this requirement is a bit of a stretch.

The Leap list above currently has a turn 4 play-side P(Enchant) of 59%. On the draw, it's at 66%.

Adding a single Vessel or two Truths puts us at 62%. Adding an Intent puts us at 64%.

If we want to get to 80%, the fewest cards required is something like:

+1 Guile/Library (to 3)
+1 Vessel of Nascency
+1 Intent (to 2)
+2 Eladamri's Call
+1 fetchland (to 9, 24 lands)

This puts us at a 79.6% turn-4 P(Enchant) on the play.

It also puts us at the following list:

4 Academy Rector
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Evolutionary Leap
4 Lingering Souls
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Eladamri's Call
2 Diabolic Intent
2 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library
1 Starved Rusalka
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Unused Slot

9 Fetchland
6 Basic Land
6 Dual Land
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Flex land slot

This puts us at 4 unused slots, which means we have space for the actual haymaker enchantments and basically zero interaction with the opponent at all. This is pretty clearly not acceptable. I don't think we will be able to get our turn 4 odds this high without the deckbuilding impact being too high. The best I can get is something like this:

3 Rector
4 Explorer
4 Zenith
2 Leap
2 Souls
4 Therapy
4 Living Wish
1 Intent
1 Rusalka
4 Guile/Library
1 Vessel
1 Arbor
6 unused slot

10 Fetchland
6 Basic
6 Dual
2 Tower

T4 on Play P(Enchant): 79.4%

This gives us a whole 2-3 slots for additional interaction, and lets us Wish for more interaction in an emergency. However it also looks clunky as all hell.

If we're willing to go down to 75% T4 odds, we get a lot more leeway and can do something like this:

3 Rector
4 Explorer
4 Zenith
1 Leap
2 Souls
4 Therapy
4 Wish
1 Intent
1 Rusalka
2 Library/Guile
1 Vessel
1 Arbor
10 unused slot
-
9 fetch
6 basic
6 dual
2 tower
-
61 cards, 23 lands
T4 on-play P(enchant): 74.9%

This gives us enough slots to play 3-4 haymaker enchantments, a couple sweepers, and some actual removal spells, and Wish to supplement our disruption if we need it to. It also puts our turn-3 odds at 61%, though this is probably actually exaggerated because fitting a Wish into turns 1-2 is a bit awkward. It's probably easier to Wish for a Rector by turn 3 than it is to Leap into one by turn three though, I guess.

[Ralf]

Getting undisrupted Rector triggers to happen with any consistency is going to be the difficult point.

With DRS / Snapcaster being everywhere, one should have a closer look to "Ground Seal" as it pretty makes sure that your Rector will trigger no matter what.
Good news is the card replaces itself.
Bad news is the card doesn't bring anything relevant to the board in many cases.

[Bobmans]

With DRS / Snapcaster being everywhere, one should have a closer look to "Ground Seal" as it pretty makes sure that your Rector will trigger no matter what.
Good news is the card replaces itself.
Bad news is the card doesn't bring anything relevant to the board in many cases.Hmmm, it also schuts down Surgical Extraction and Life from the Loam.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk

[Navsi]

I've run it in the sideboard before. It's solid. Might be more difficult to fit in if we're on a Wishboard already though.

[Ralf]

To further add to my thoughts:

I don't think abzan is at his best for Nyx Fit.
Bant seems to be an overall better choice.

1) you replace GSZ that does nothing else than fetching veteran by brainstorm + ponder which is arguably better

2) You get rid of Cabal Therapy and start playing Perilous Research.

3) Omniscience + wish for Emrakul is a new strong plan

4) Depending on your blue card number you can play FOW

Etc...

Those are just ideas but...

PS: not to mention you have access to Supreme Verdict etc...

[Navsi]

To further add to my thoughts:

I don't think abzan is at his best for Nyx Fit.
Bant seems to be an overall better choice.

1) you replace GSZ that does nothing else than fetching veteran by brainstorm + ponder which is arguably better

2) You get rid of Cabal Therapy and start playing Perilous Research.

3) Omniscience + wish for Emrakul is a new strong plan

4) Depending on your blue card number you can play FOW

Etc...

Those are just ideas but...

PS: not to mention you have access to Supreme Verdict etc...

1. Bant is way less consistent at accelerating our mana. We don't have Phyrexian Tower, all our sacrifice outlets cost mana except Therapy.

2. Therapy and Tower can't be responded to. Using Perilous Research makes our Rector triggers vulnerable to STP (not good) and also to countermagic like Spell Pierce. It gets even worse when we can't spend 4 mana for a Rector trigger because every way of saccing him costs us more mana.

3. Omni is way less good than the other options. It needs another card in hand in order to win the game. All our other Rector trigger options already win us the game if the trigger resolves, or close to, without requiring a combo to avoid being completely dead. Omni is also wayyy harder to cast than all the Abzan enchantments - 10 mana is a lot more than 8, and triple blue is hard. There's a reason Sneak went for RSD and Bellower over Griselbrand.

[Ulysse95]

1. Bant is way less consistent at accelerating our mana. We don't have Phyrexian Tower, all our sacrifice outlets cost mana except Therapy.

2. Therapy and Tower can't be responded to. Using Perilous Research makes our Rector triggers vulnerable to STP (not good) and also to countermagic like Spell Pierce. It gets even worse when we can't spend 4 mana for a Rector trigger because every way of saccing him costs us more mana.

3. Omni is way less good than the other options. It needs another card in hand in order to win the game. All our other Rector trigger options already win us the game if the trigger resolves, or close to, without requiring a combo to avoid being completely dead. Omni is also wayyy harder to cast than all the Abzan enchantments - 10 mana is a lot more than 8, and triple blue is hard. There's a reason Sneak went for RSD and Bellower over Griselbrand.

I was just starting to try to put Nyx into Bant or Esper (veteran would switch for sol lands..).
Phyrexian tower gives 2 colorless if we are not playing black. I stay confortable with it.
We would have access to show and tell which is a strong enabler for our hay maker enchantements.

Not sur it can work, but need to investigate it a bit...

[Ralf]

1. Bant is way less consistent at accelerating our mana. We don't have Phyrexian Tower, all our sacrifice outlets cost mana except Therapy.

2. Therapy and Tower can't be responded to. Using Perilous Research makes our Rector triggers vulnerable to STP (not good) and also to countermagic like Spell Pierce. It gets even worse when we can't spend 4 mana for a Rector trigger because every way of saccing him costs us more mana.

3. Omni is way less good than the other options. It needs another card in hand in order to win the game. All our other Rector trigger options already win us the game if the trigger resolves, or close to, without requiring a combo to avoid being completely dead. Omni is also wayyy harder to cast than all the Abzan enchantments - 10 mana is a lot more than 8, and triple blue is hard. There's a reason Sneak went for RSD and Bellower over Griselbrand.

I beg to differ.

1) Living wish does fetch Tower for you (and you'll find LW faster with 8 cantrips). Brainstorm/ponder makes 1 lander opening hands somehow more keepable. When midgame you draw your GSZ again after having resolved 1 or 2 veteran trigger already, you look sad. Trying to justify GSZ > Brainstorm/Ponder will be very very hard. One has only one application and gets worse (in this deck because there is no target to GSZ) as the game drags on while the others are "constant".

Playing Supreme Verdict says fuck you "permission" (spell pierce, counterspell, fow, what have you).

2) Your are correct but instead of playing proactively you can play reactively (which blue is built for); meaning that you shouldn't seek to sac your rector in any case (match dependant). It can occupy a board for many turn if needed. Perilous research (as I play it in my BANT control Fit deck) has several uses. Obviously you want to use it on veteran/rector but sometimes, using it in response to a wasteland or a removal on one of your permanent is almost as good as it gets.
-> Playing 3 supreme verdict can also be seen as a sacrificing effect for Rector.
-> Rapid Hybridization could also be a (certainly bad) idea for example

3) No. that is "bullshit" (no flame here). I played against Nyx fit creator (it happens we know each other) and he did resolved one Rector's trigger and I still didn't lose. This is not enough, you need a lock (2 enchantments). I won't say omni is better but let's look at the fact:
- 8 cantrips to help you find a wish
- 4 perilous research/Ground Seal can also "dig" for a wish (and when omni is in play, I'm pretty sure you just go for it as you don't need your land anymore)
- whatever cards you might be playing to increase consistency.

Finally, let's be real ? How is not omni + emrakul just plain better, a vast majority of the time, than every other "combo" you propose ? None presents a lock + a fast kill when sacrifice 6 permanents and take 15 to the dome, without interaction (uncounterable, play another turn), does... (80 % of the time it will be a oneshot kill)

At last, OMNI + any other enchantment is also nice. (you can play 3 threats MD for example: omni + sandwurm + XXX). The other 2 would be the B plan when the omni+kukul plan is disrupted.

So, to conclude:

ABZAN is not BANT
One requires to play proactively, the other reactively.

As would Arian say, before tearing apart ideas and potential options; please leave no stone unturned.


PS: I don't play Nyx Fit. I'm just giving ideas. Relax.
PS 2: Sorry if my post looks rude, after reading it again, the tone I use is a little bit too aggressive to my taste.
PS 3: Oh boy you can also play JTMS / Karakas for Kukul loop...

[square_two]

I beg to differ.

3) No. that is "bullshit" (no flame here). I played against Nyx fit creator (it happens we know each other) and he did resolved one Rector's trigger and I still didn't lose. This is not enough, you need a lock (2 enchantments). I won't say omni is better but let's look at the fact:
- 8 cantrips to help you find a wish
- 4 perilous research/Ground Seal can also "dig" for a wish (and when omni is in play, I'm pretty sure you just go for it as you don't need your land anymore)
- whatever cards you might be playing to increase consistency.


Agreed that we shouldn't leave interesting stones unturned. I'm curious in general about a more reactive blue nic fit shell with a large Wishboard - whether it be Nyx or not. At first I was skeptical, but it sounds like a way to include more interaction while keeping a high number of wincons. I'm just doubtful about improved combo matchups (I'm not of the mind that just having FoW is enough).

That said, while I haven't been actively playing lately, I did manage to play a large number (80+) of matches of Nyx Fit in competitive leagues online during the summer/fall. The number of games that 1 rector activation isn't enough, is incredibly small. Splendor and Dovescape are just so incredibly powerful. Omni-Emrakul in itself still requires "more than 1 activation" due to having to manage to have Emrakul in hand undisrupted, and on your turn. It seems much weaker against hand disruption due to that. Maybe there are other advantages that are difficult to consider, such as being able to cast Deed for free and having a large amount of mana free to pop it.

I still think that a huge gain for playing Nyx Fit is the added removal (Swords/Brutality) and Souls. Cheapo removal clears out Deathrites and shores up so many creature matchups such as Elves. Souls does so much blocker/chump work and shores up Lands.

One day perhaps I'll get around to trying a junk quad-Dovescape list. Souls, GSZ both work so well with it, plus perhaps a few copies of Gideon. I've just fallen in love with Dovescape. Suddenly you have Souls working...triple? as blocks/chumps, attackers, and end-game 6-token powerhouse. GSZ similarly gains another angle in being an uncounterable token maker.

[Ralf]

Agreed that we shouldn't leave interesting stones unturned. I'm curious in general about a more reactive blue nic fit shell with a large Wishboard - whether it be Nyx or not. At first I was skeptical, but it sounds like a way to include more interaction while keeping a high number of wincons. I'm just doubtful about improved combo matchups (I'm not of the mind that just having FoW is enough).

That said, while I haven't been actively playing lately, I did manage to play a large number (80+) of matches of Nyx Fit in competitive leagues online during the summer/fall. The number of games that 1 rector activation isn't enough, is incredibly small. Splendor and Dovescape are just so incredibly powerful. Omni-Emrakul in itself still requires "more than 1 activation" due to having to manage to have Emrakul in hand undisrupted, and on your turn. It seems much weaker against hand disruption due to that. Maybe there are other advantages that are difficult to consider, such as being able to cast Deed for free and having a large amount of mana free to pop it.

I still think that a huge gain for playing Nyx Fit is the added removal (Swords/Brutality) and Souls. Cheapo removal clears out Deathrites and shores up so many creature matchups such as Elves. Souls does so much blocker/chump work and shores up Lands.

One day perhaps I'll get around to trying a junk quad-Dovescape list. Souls, GSZ both work so well with it, plus perhaps a few copies of Gideon. I've just fallen in love with Dovescape. Suddenly you have Souls working...triple? as blocks/chumps, attackers, and end-game 6-token powerhouse. GSZ similarly gains another angle in being an uncounterable token maker.

Blue and White give you some number of interesting options to fight back combo decks:
- Flusterstorm/Counter (not accessible through LW)
- Permanent hates (Meddling mage/Prelate/Canonist/Gaddock/Glen Elendra/SCM to replay counter etc...) all accessible through LW (some in ABZAN also)

I'm not saying BANT > ABZAN, I'm just saying in theory BANT > ABZAN because the latter forces you to run suboptimal cards in many situations.

Omni + Emrakul (via Wish or 1 in MD & 1 in SB) is just another wincon. I got that Dove + Splendor is a nice combo but :
- Splendor alone is just a better humility
- Dove is symmetric and does not deal with what is on the board (and actually requires curse to be OP)

Velocity/killing fast is a thing in real tournament or you'll end up drawing winnable games.

I don't have a list but if someone buys into the concept I would look into a mix of:

3-4 Force of Will
3-4 Ground Seal
2-3 Supreme Verdict
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3-4 STP
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Perilous research
3-4 Living Wish
0-2 Blessed Alliance
3-4 Rector
0-2 JTMS
1 Omni
1-2 Big Enchantments

20 lands (at least 6 basics maybe)

Sideboard:
1 Kukul
1 Karakas
1 Tower
2-3 Fluster
1 Glen Elendra
1 Rec Sage
1 Disenchant
2 Path to Exil
etc...

Ofc, it has to be tested, tweaked until you are satisfied with what you have.

NB:
1) Perilous Research has something very particular because it is instant. I'm testing the card since a few weeks and the most notable thing is that you truly get to play first with 2 more basics and full mana detap whereas usually with CT your opponent gets to play first with full mana + 2 basics.

2) Perilous replaces itself + your veteran (you draw 2 cards) whereas CT + veteran is not always "on par" (If you miss the first leg and your oppo has 2 basics, you are already down 1 card, except if you take 2+ cards from your opponent's hand)

3) Being instant puts the risk on your opponent. With CT you can miss the first leg, but with Perilous it is reversed: your opponent is taking a risk to spend a card on 1 of your permanent just to see you use Perilous in response. Then he is the one down 1 card.

4) Perilous is 2 mana. CT is 1. This is a huge drawback sometimes.

[vilnico]

2 cents from a guy who played Omni-Emrakul for a long time, before the Nyx versions (not that I make authority or anything...):
- I haven't played heavy enchantments versions, but it seems to me that you need 2 enchantments to lock your opponent. To me Ralf's feedback makes sense.
- Omni "on its own" can be nice enough. Emmy is definitely the win-con, but the slamming the rest of your hand is not to be underestimated.
- I haven't played Evo Leap yet, but with one on the board, it should not be too hard to find Emmy. Unless I am dreaming? I haven't really replayed the deck since Top was banned, but if I did, I would include EvoLeap, not necessarily Wish though.

On another topic: I think Arian said that the interaction (Starfield of Nyx / Deed) are underrated. I tend to agree here.

[JackaBo]

My 2 cents. The enchantments that nyxfit plays are better than Omniscience on their own. That's why this is even a deck. You only need one activation to be wastly ahead. I agree that with omni plus Emmy is superstrong but it's not uncommon for omnishow players the show in omni then start cantripping finding nothing. Not many fair decks beat a humility that also stops equip, grindstone, wasteland etc. Not many combodecks beat dovescape as they play so many 1 cmc spells. With souls and gsz you're bound to win that war.
I like the bant idea though but not because of omni.

[Ralf]

My 2 cents. The enchantments that nyxfit plays are better than Omniscience on their own. That's why this is even a deck. You only need one activation to be wastly ahead. I agree that with omni plus Emmy is superstrong but it's not uncommon for omnishow players the show in omni then start cantripping finding nothing. Not many fair decks beat a humility that also stops equip, grindstone, wasteland etc. Not many combodecks beat dovescape as they play so many 1 cmc spells. With souls and gsz you're bound to win that war.
I like the bant idea though but not because of omni.

I don't dismiss all the other enchants; I suggest playing omni as well on top of it.

Nyx Fit needs a faster kill IMHO and easy wins. S&T Omni is a different deck and the fact that they start cantripping and find "nothing" has also something to do with the fact that their velocity is higher so that remaining cards in their library is also higher = less chance to see the say card.
They usually run more cantrips but I didn't do the math at all so if you are willing to do it, be our guest.

The other way to say it:

You have a wish in hand protected by FOW, a dying Rector on the stack and a choice to make...
Omni + Kukul or one of your lock piece ?

How many of you went to time, at least once, when playing your Nyx Fit version ?

Be honest with yourself, please (and with us if you will).

Regards,

Ralf

[Echelon]

I'm calling it quits on SE Nyx Fit. I don't see it going anywhere useful.

[KoomZog]

I've been following this thread for months but I still don't know what "SE" stands for. Anyone care to enlighten me?

Thanks for all the constructive discussions, I've been learning a lot about this deck and legacy in general. I'm a Manaless Dredge player looking to maybe expand my legacy collection, and some version of Nic Fit will probably be my choice of deck when/if I do it.

[Echelon]

SE stands for Systems Engineering, which is a requirements based approach on project development/management. What this means for MtG is that rather than start off with "I want to build a Nic Fit deck" (for instance) you start out with defining what you want your deck to do, what functions you want it to fulfill and so on. First you figure out what you want your deck to do, break that down in functions and numbers, then you try to build a list that focuses on meeting those requirements.

[p.faul01]

Btw there is an instant deck tech on nyx fit from mtggoldfish on YouTube. Now the deck seems to be called "curses" ;)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E7cSN_uwR_I

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[KoomZog]

SE stands for Systems Engineering, which is a requirements based approach on project development/management. What this means for MtG is that rather than start off with "I want to build a Nic Fit deck" (for instance) you start out with defining what you want your deck to do, what functions you want it to fulfill and so on. First you figure out what you want your deck to do, break that down in functions and numbers, then you try to build a list that focuses on meeting those requirements.

Thank you, Echelon. I haven't heard the term Systems Engineering despite being a design engineer myself, but english is not my first language.
That seems like a healthy approach.
I'll keep trying Nic Fit variants on xMage and see what I like.

[Echelon]

It's not my first language either. In the Netherlands we do still refer to it as Systems Engineering though. We use it as the go-to method for big infrastructural projects. It helps you break those projects up into smaller, more managable chunks (usually called a system breakdown structure).

[Claymore]

I was buying up the enchantments, but waiting on the Rectors themselves. Now they're bought out everywhere and 2-3x the price.

Some of those SE requirements reminds me of the last few Nic Fit decks I played. 6 discard, mandatory 12 pieces of ramp, removal, etc. I think it's a fine approach for roughing out a deck scope prior to fine tuning for a meta or specific approaches.

I think the deck could take a look at how much it wants to force out a Rector through disruption (T3-T4) vs how much it wants to control the board before dropping Rector (T5+). That might just be a little bit of tweaks in Decays or 1 mana kill spells vs discard, Caverns, etc.

As far as Omni goes, I've largely seen that this deck often triggers a Rector while hellbent, partially because it has to drop and trigger Rector so much later than just Turn 2 Show and Tell. That type of scenario wouldn't do well to get Omniscience and then rely on top decks. Being Blue also allows Omni decks to run fewer land slots in general because they can hinge on cantrips to find lands.

It's true that the deck would want to get a two enchantment lock out, but the streams I've seen make the deck largely win once it gets one haymaker out. For example, Splendor vs Lands ends the game unless they have Krosan Grip, because all of the lands do absolutely nothing. Delver decks can get knocked out by the one-sided Reality. Plus, while the opponent is having to deal with whatever Curse you just dropped, it gives you a little breathing room to go and grab another Rector.

The only enchantment I see as a little iffy is actually Dovescape because it requires you to have some set up before firing off and it can backfire if you don't sequence correctly.

[Brael]

I'm calling it quits on SE Nyx Fit. I don't see it going anywhere useful.

I kind of ran into the same problem, Navsi encountered a similar issue the other day when running the numbers. It seems the percentages we're shooting for aren't really obtainable. I think evolutions of the deck need to look not at speeding it up (which is really the domain combo decks like Reanimator and S&S are playing in anyways) and instead looking at how to draw the game out and have a slow but unbeatable lock.

[menph]

Mtg goldfish also streamed a league with nyx fit
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/much-abrew-legacy-curses-nyx-fit

Is the price of key pieces grown that much recently? the deck looks very very popular lately

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[Brael]

Mtg goldfish also streamed a league with nyx fit
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/much-abrew-legacy-curses-nyx-fit

Is the price of key pieces grown that much recently? the deck looks very very popular lately

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Rector has doubled, the rest has held steady.

It's really popular, I can't wait for the hype to die down myself. The deck just strikes me as being way too casual, but a lot of people are having fun with it right now.

[Brael]

Making another pass at an Azcanta build. The builds a couple pages back failed. Specifically, the PW build just gets pulled in too many directions.

So my next thought is to try revitalizing an equipment build. SFM isn't doing too well right now, but Azcanta can find equipment too, and often times you would rather naturally draw the equipment anyways, it's really only Batterskull where that's not true.

Lands 21
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor

Creatures 15
1 Walking Ballista
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Dark Confidant
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Glissa, the Traitor
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth

Spells 25
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Crop Rotation
4 Brainstorm
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
2 Search for Azcanta
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

[Brael]

Made a couple changes. -1 forest +1 island, -1 fire and ice +1 feast and famine. This deck generates so much value.

Stuff I'm liking:
2/2 split on Bob/Jace. This lets you stack them, it hedges against removal or deed a bit and saves some life. I've tried 4 in either direction and a split now and a 2/2 split has been by far the strongest configuration.

Nissa is solid.

Azcanta is great. It's a good fit in this deck, and this build can take advantage. I'm loving the equipments as hits. F&F specifically is good because it can untap Azcanta for a second activation. That interaction is extremely powerful. I don't know if this deck can build around it to a large enough extent, but I believe that interaction is strong enough to be the backbone of a T1 deck.

Stuff I'm not liking:
Ballista, Glissa, and Meren are poor threats. Meren shrinks the GY as does Glissa (sometimes) and none of them are powerful enough creatures. They fit the right spots on the curve, but they're too small. Glissa can maybe hold her own because nothing beats her in combat but the other two should definitely be replaced.

[Echelon]

Played a full day of Nyx Fit yesterday, started out with the following build:

Main (61):
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Phyrexian Tower

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Lingering Souls
4 Academy Rector

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Collective Brutality
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Pernicious Deed

3 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library
3 Evolutionary Leap

1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Dovescape
1 Cruel Reality
1 Overwhelming splendor

Sideboard:
3 Duress
2 Lost Legacy
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Abrupt Decay

The starting 76 felt clunky, with card velocity being the main problem. I quickly switched out the Collective Brutalities for a set of Swords to Plowshares. This felt better, like I had more room to wiggle. It does put a bit more strain on the manabase though, as you need your third colour sooner. The manabase held up nicely though, mostly fetching me basics throughout the day without fail.

For context, most of my testing was vs. Grixis Delver (w/ Stifles and a MD Tropical Island for his set of DRS) and a freak D&T build that dropped Thoughtknot Seers.

Grixis was rough, although after boarding (+2 Abrupt Decay, +3 Duress) percentages went from 30/70 to about 50/50 since I was able to go toe to toe with them during the early game and overpower them afterwards. Casting & flashbacking 2 Lingering Souls one after the other helped out a lot too.

Freak D&T went from 40/60 to probably 65/35 after boarding (+2 Abrupt Decay, +2 Pithing Needle, +1 Reclamation Sage, +2 Golgari Charm). Amongst the cards I boarded out were 3 Veteran Explorers, which worked out quite well. Them not having all the mana let me answer the things they could play until I could resolve some Rector triggers. It also helped that postboard I had 9 outs to Rest in Peace (which my opponent ran 2 of postboard).

Throughout the day the Guiles and Library proved to be quite vital, by the way. I'm at a total of 4 of those and can highly recommend it, regardless of Deed and the prospect of running into multiple copies and despite popular or prevalent opinion. It's pretty damn good for a combo deck to be able to mimic blue's card selection, even if it feels boring, do-nothing and lackluster. It really isn't. Severing a limb to save the whole is fine, and redundant copies are shuffled away quite easily. Also, the Guiles/Libraries prevent you from drawing your lockpieces, so there's that.

On Collective Brutality - I've been struggling with this one a lot. Popular opinion is that it's great for the combo MUs, but I'm not really sure. The problem here is card velocity. The going rate for a Duress effect (or spot removal) is 1 mana, not 2. This still is Legacy. Being able to attack your opponents' hand is great since we are a combo deck here, but I'm not sure if Brutality is the right card for the job. If we do want that interaction I think we might be better off w/ 1 mana disruption, like Inquisition of Kozilek, Thoughtseize or even good old Duress.

I did love my Lingering Souls, but I might be a bit too aggressive with them (flashing them back too quickly). That's something that I'll have to figure out.

Going forward, here is what I think are the most important things are to look into for Nyx Fit:
- Card velocity needs to go up. On streams you see a lot of lists with a lot of relatively high CMC cards that just get stuck in the early game and keel over trying to get out
- Consistency can be an issue when cutting away card selection (which seems to be the first thing to go out of the window everywhere) and replacing them with more fat. Again, this is what you see happening on streams. There was one that went 5-0, after which pretty much all streams had a 2-3 or worse record. Take from that what you will
- I'd love for this list to have some kind of pivot card that lets you turn the game around without resorting to Rector triggers. I might want a Sigarda somewhere in the 76

Anyways, those were my thoughts on the list for now. Enjoy the last day of the year!

[Cartesian]

Going forward, here is what I think are the most important things are to look into for Nyx Fit:
- Card velocity needs to go up. On streams you see a lot of lists with a lot of relatively high CMC cards that just get stuck in the early game and keel over trying to get out
- Consistency can be an issue when cutting away card selection (which seems to be the first thing to go out of the window everywhere) and replacing them with more fat. Again, this is what you see happening on streams. There was one that went 5-0, after which pretty much all streams had a 2-3 or worse record. Take from that what you will
- I'd love for this list to have some kind of pivot card that lets you turn the game around without resorting to Rector triggers.
I agree with these thoughts. This type of deck really is held back by not having access to Sensei's Top.
Happy brewing.

[Kagemusha]

Quick question; looking into BUG variant and I’m sitting here looking at the card Mask of the Mimic... can I cast this card targeting my explorer, trigger for lands and immediately get another explorer in play? Same question if I target an academy rector...

[JackaBo]

Quick question; looking into BUG variant and I’m sitting here looking at the card Mask of the Mimic... can I cast this card targeting my explorer, trigger for lands and immediately get another explorer in play? Same question if I target an academy rector...

No. You sac as part of cost. You need another creature to target for the search function.

[Blastoderm]

Are people still playing punishing fire?

[Echelon]

Are people still playing punishing fire?

Nope