[Primer] Nic Fit

[Brael]

Quick question; looking into BUG variant and I’m sitting here looking at the card Mask of the Mimic... can I cast this card targeting my explorer, trigger for lands and immediately get another explorer in play? Same question if I target an academy rector...

That card requires 2 creatures in play. A card to sacrifice and a card to target that you're copying.

[pettdan]

Are people still playing punishing fire?


Nope

Lightning Bolt vs Punishing Fire was discussed in this thread a while ago, maybe this spring? And most people active in the discussion seemed to think Lightning Bolt was better, but I think this discussion was for the Sneaky Fit lists. And perhaps Top was still around back then. I wouldn't be so quick to neglect it, not then and not now.

It seems to me (based on my limited understanding of the meta game's development) like the meta is grindy enough that repeatable removal in the form of Punishing Fire is very valuable. The few creatures it doesn't destroy [edit: Leovold, TNN, Gurmag/Tasigur/Tombstalker] can be handled by Liliana of the Veil, and when coupled together they bring card advantage. The card, Punishing Fire, single-handedly deals with most of Czech Pile, it is also a valuable card vs Miracles since it can prevent Jace ultimates, gain card advantage coupled with Liliana and potentially stop a Mentor and its swarm of tokens. Also Liliana of the Veil is useful vs any deck trying to accumulate a critical mass of cards (storm) or putting a large creature into play (Reanimator, Show and Tell). None of this is any news, really, I just think that Punishing Fire with Liliana of the Veil can be a very good meta call. They are very useful vs Eldrazi too. Then there is the overlap between Punishing Fire and Liliana, the Last Hope. I think a list could play both of them, not sure what list but there is some room for experimentation.

Actually, I couldn't stop myself from putting together a list, sorry for posting it without testing.. If someone wants to help me improve the list I'll happily take suggestions here or in PM's, may try the list tomorrow.

Maindeck: (61)

Creatures: (13)
3 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Thragtusk
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

Discard: (7)
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach

Removal: (9)
1 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
3 Pernicious Deed

Planeswalkers and removal: (5)
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Garruk Relentless

Tutors: (6)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
There could be a Sylvan Library here. Maybe skipping the Crop Rotations.

Lands: (22 in total)
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Bojuka Bog (could be a Volrath's Stronghold)
2 Bayou
0 Taiga
1 Badlands
2 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
8 Fetches

Sideboard:
1 Crop Rotation
1 Karakas
1 Thoughtseize
1 Lost Legacy
1 Slaughter Games
2 Leyline of the Void [edit: with Ooze, Deathrites and Crop into Bog this seems like overkill, will change into Blood Moon, Spyglass or Bitterblossom or similar]
1 Golgari Charm (or Toxic Deluge)
1 Carpet of Flowers
4 Natural Order
1 Ruric Thar
1 Progenitus
Maybe the Natural Order package is unnecessary, I just like how it's very relevant vs both combo and fair non-blue decks.

or skipping the Natural Order-package:
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Bitterblossom
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Something else

Like most Jund lists it looks very weak vs Lands, not sure what to do. Crop Rotation + Bojuka Bog and Karakas is relevant, so is Sorcerous Spyglass and Bitterblossom. And Natural Order + Progenitus can at least be a fast clock.

[Bobmans]

Lightning Bolt vs Punishing Fire was discussed in this thread a while ago, maybe this spring? And most people active in the discussion seemed to think Lightning Bolt was better, but I think this discussion was for the Sneaky Fit lists. And perhaps Top was still around back then. I wouldn't be so quick to neglect it, not then and not now.


I still play PFire NicFit nearly exclusive. Or Aggro Loam. Not playing to much lately tho. Anyhow here is a list i recently updated, biggest differences are the Dinosaurs, Chandra, ToD and the exclusion of Abrupt Decay. Every card must be able to generate some advantage, kind of compensation for missing tops. It topdecks pretty decend.

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/kagu-tsuchi-jund-nicfit/

Lands is a Nightmare for this deck as it always was.

[pettdan]

@Bobmans: Nice input, thanks! A Blood Moon or two could be valuable in the board and Nissa, Vastwood Seer and Chandra ToD are very relevant considerations for the maindeck, big Nissa too.

[Nithkar]

Maybe PF Nic Fit gained a new toy?https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180104/d1a962f8a71bc0d6fde88483925a6657.jpg

Sent from my Moto Z2 Play using Tapatalk

[Ricardio]

Where are the Rhino builds?

[Brael]

Where are the Rhino builds?

Echelon and I have been throwing around a Bob Rhino build. Here's the take I had on it
23 land
4 verdant catacombs
4 windswept heath
2 bayou
1 savannah
1 scrubland
4 forest
1 plains
1 swamp
1 phyrexian tower
1 volrath's stronghold
1 dryad arbor
1 karakas
1 bojuka bog

19 creatures
4 veteran explorer
2 deathrite shama
n 4 dark confidant
1 eternal witness
4 tireless tracker
1 nissa, vastwood seer
3 siege rhino

19 spells
4 cabal therapy
4 green sun's zenith
1 collective brutality
2 crop rotation
3 swords to plowshares
2 diabolic edict
1 abrupt decay
1 toxic deluge
1 pernicious deed

This was Echelons
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
4 Siege Rhino
4 Path to Exile
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library

[Ricardio]

Wow, I like Echelon's build more. Not usually the case.

How have the bobs been?

[Brael]

Bob is fine, like always. Worth noting, the curve in either of these builds is extremely low so there's really only a narrow window where Rhino might flip for 4, in most circumstances you'll regain it right away. So for Bob purposes, you can really consider either of these decks to top out at 3.

4 Bob 4 Tracker is a very potent way to take advantage of mana ramp.

[Brael]

So, I have a little project to try if anyone is interested. Navsi mentioned a point based evaluation system in Discord the other day. From what I gathered from it (lots of brief discussion, so I just skimmed the history), the hardest part is in weighting points properly. It ends up being fairly arbitrary for example how much you want to weight the ability to not be killed by STP vs the ability to beat a Leovold in combat.

So, I've had this idea floating around in my head for a while, that we can make a giant matrix of all the cards we're concerned about, and all the cards we want to consider. Each ranking is pretty simple, is the card in row 2, column 1 good against the card in row 1 column 2? If it passes the criteria we lay out, that spot gets a 1 in the matrix, and if it doesn't it gets a 0.

When all is said and done, we wind up with a big grid of 0's and 1's. This is where it gets interesting though, because this is a giant matrix, we can use matrix math on it to gain some information. Depending on which way this gets multiplied it creates either a finishers by finishers matrix which gives us a counting of how many cards each finisher is relevant against. Or we create a finishers by card matrix which will show us groups of finishers that overlap. Once this is done, some metagame weighting can predict a good suite of finishers for any given moment.

Any takers on trying to list finishers, cards we want to evaluate against, and rules for evaluation? Ideally we want to keep this small, I've got a similar larger project which uses every card in Magic for a similar purpose, but that gets out of control quickly.... preferably no more than 20 finishers/100 cards is what we would want here (and hopefully even less).

Edit: I'll start with an example card. The point based systems being thrown around earlier rated Nissa, Vastwood Seer as our best finisher. So since it's the winner, I'll use it. Though I'm likely still missing a few rules and criteria.

Rules: Trades up at any cost, trades down at 1 mana deficit or better. Or beats card to win.

General criteria:
1 - 6 mana or less
1 - Card advantage
1 - Can GSZ (optional?)

Combat:
1 - Beats Strix
Beats Angler
Beats TNN
Beats Griselbrand
1 - Beats Delver
1 - Beats Jace
1 - Beats Leovold
Beats Marit Lage
1 - Beats TKS
Beats Reality Smasher
1 - Beats DRS
1 - Beats Lingering Souls
1 - Beats Pyromancer
Beats Tarmogoyf

Resiliency
1 - Beats Fatal Push @2
1 - Beats Fatal Push @4
1 - Beats STP
Beats Bolt
1 - Beats Deed
1 - Beats Deluge
Beats Decay
Beats Pulse
Beats FoW
1 - Beats Spell Snare
1 - Beats Spell Pierce
1 - Beats Daze
1 - Beats Stifle
1 - Beats Terminus
1 - Beats Tabernacle
Beats Punishing Fire
1 - Beats Jitte
1 - Beats Chalice
1 - Beats Kommand
Beats Discard

Evasion:
Relevant protection
Evasion ability
1 - Goes wide

[Echelon]

I'll start adding stuff on monday

[Valkyrie]

Hi Folks,

this is my first post here, so i hope for any suggestions to bring this deck competitive.
I am playing Nic Fit for a while and almost everyday i am brewing on this pile.
I brought a version of this Deck to a tournament, with mixed results.
So this was my first legacy tournament for a long time, with nearly no knowledge about the Meta or any MU's.
But i had a great time and so i wanna have more fun next time.

Here it is, feel free to comment.
If someone wants to help me improve the list I'll happily take suggestions.
If you need any explanations for specific cards, then just ask



Deck: 4c - Nic Fit (https://deckstats.net/decks/97262/890771-4c-nic-fit/de) https://deckstats.net/mana/m/w.gif https://deckstats.net/mana/m/u.gif https://deckstats.net/mana/m/b.gif https://deckstats.net/mana/m/g.gif

//Beating Things
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Atraxa%2C+Praetors%27+Voice)
1 Deathrite Shaman (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Deathrite+Shaman)
1 Dragonlord Dromoka (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Dragonlord+Dromoka)
1 Eternal Witness (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Eternal+Witness)
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Leovold%2C+Emissary+of+Trest)
1 Scavenging Ooze (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Scavenging+Ooze)
1 Siege Rhino (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Siege+Rhino)
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Sigarda%2C+Host+of+Herons)
1 Stoic Angel (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Stoic+Angel)
1 Tarmogoyf (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Tarmogoyf)
4 Veteran Explorer (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Veteran+Explorer)
1 Voice of Resurgence (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Voice+of+Resurgence)
1 Xantid Swarm (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Xantid+Swarm)

//Paying Things
2 Bayou (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Bayou)
2 Forest (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Forest)
1 Island (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Island)
1 Karakas (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Karakas)
2 Marsh Flats (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Marsh+Flats)
1 Phyrexian Tower (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Phyrexian+Tower)
1 Plains (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Plains)
2 Savannah (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Savannah)
1 Scrubland (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Scrubland)
1 Swamp (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Swamp)
1 Tropical Island (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Tropical+Island)
1 Tundra (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Tundra)
3 Verdant Catacombs (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Verdant+Catacombs)
1 Volrath's Stronghold (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Volrath%27s+Stronghold)
2 Windswept Heath (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Windswept+Heath)

//Destroing Things
2 Abrupt Decay (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Abrupt+Decay)
4 Cabal Therapy (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Cabal+Therapy)
1 Maelstrom Pulse (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Maelstrom+Pulse)
3 Pernicious Deed (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Pernicious+Deed)
2 Swords to Plowshares (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Swords+to+Plowshares)
1 Vindicate (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Vindicate)

//Valuing Things
1 Diabolic Intent (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Diabolic+Intent)
4 Green Sun's Zenith (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Green+Sun%27s+Zenith)
2 Lingering Souls (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Lingering+Souls)
1 Nissa, Steward of Elements (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Nissa%2C+Steward+of+Elements)
1 Recurring Nightmare (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Recurring+Nightmare)

//Sideboard
2 Diabolic Edict (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Diabolic+Edict)
1 Ethersworn Canonist (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Ethersworn+Canonist)
1 Gaddock Teeg (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Gaddock+Teeg)
1 Krosan Grip (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Krosan+Grip)
1 Nihil Spellbomb (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Nihil+Spellbomb)
1 Pithing Needle (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Pithing+Needle)
1 Qasali Pridemage (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Qasali+Pridemage)
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Ruric+Thar%2C+the+Unbowed)
2 Surgical Extraction (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Surgical+Extraction)
2 Thoughtseize (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Thoughtseize)
2 Toxic Deluge (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Toxic+Deluge)

https://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Deckstatistik anzeigen (https://deckstats.net/decks/97262/890771-4c-nic-fit)

I also got an alternative deck - plan, with a little Rector "Splash" for alternative win conditions and a better MU for S&T.
But this pile seems not so competitive to me?!
Deck: Rector - Nic Fit (https://deckstats.net/decks/97262/885713-rector-nic-fit/de) https://deckstats.net/mana/m/w.gif https://deckstats.net/mana/m/u.gif https://deckstats.net/mana/m/b.gif https://deckstats.net/mana/m/g.gif

//Main
2 Abrupt Decay (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Abrupt+Decay)
4 Cabal Therapy (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Cabal+Therapy)
1 Diabolic Intent (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Diabolic+Intent)
3 Green Sun's Zenith (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Green+Sun%27s+Zenith)
2 Lingering Souls (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Lingering+Souls)
2 Swords to Plowshares (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Swords+to+Plowshares)
1 Vindicate (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Vindicate)

//Creatures
2 Academy Rector (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Academy+Rector)
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Atraxa%2C+Praetors%27+Voice)
1 Deathrite Shaman (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Deathrite+Shaman)
1 Dragonlord Dromoka (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Dragonlord+Dromoka)
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Leovold%2C+Emissary+of+Trest)
1 Scavenging Ooze (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Scavenging+Ooze)
1 Siege Rhino (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Siege+Rhino)
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Sigarda%2C+Host+of+Herons)
1 Stoic Angel (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Stoic+Angel)
1 Tarmogoyf (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Tarmogoyf)
4 Veteran Explorer (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Veteran+Explorer)
1 Voice of Resurgence (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Voice+of+Resurgence)
1 Xantid Swarm (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Xantid+Swarm)

//Lands
2 Bayou (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Bayou)
1 Forest (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Forest)
1 Island (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Island)
1 Karakas (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Karakas)
2 Marsh Flats (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Marsh+Flats)
1 Phyrexian Tower (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Phyrexian+Tower)
1 Plains (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Plains)
2 Savannah (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Savannah)
1 Scrubland (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Scrubland)
1 Swamp (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Swamp)
1 Tropical Island (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Tropical+Island)
1 Tundra (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Tundra)
3 Verdant Catacombs (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Verdant+Catacombs)
1 Volrath's Stronghold (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Volrath%27s+Stronghold)
2 Windswept Heath (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Windswept+Heath)

//Enchantments & Artifacts
1 Cast Out (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Cast+Out)
1 Cruel Reality (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Cruel+Reality)
1 Overwhelming Splendor (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Overwhelming+Splendor)
2 Pernicious Deed (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Pernicious+Deed)
2 Scroll Rack (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Scroll+Rack)

//Sideboard
2 Diabolic Edict (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Diabolic+Edict)
1 Ethersworn Canonist (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Ethersworn+Canonist)
1 Gaddock Teeg (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Gaddock+Teeg)
1 Krosan Grip (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Krosan+Grip)
1 Nihil Spellbomb (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Nihil+Spellbomb)
1 Pithing Needle (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Pithing+Needle)
1 Qasali Pridemage (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Qasali+Pridemage)
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Ruric+Thar%2C+the+Unbowed)
2 Surgical Extraction (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Surgical+Extraction)
2 Thoughtseize (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Thoughtseize)
2 Toxic Deluge (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Toxic+Deluge)

https://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Deckstatistik anzeigen (https://deckstats.net/decks/97262/885713-rector-nic-fit)


Thanks a lot! Greetings,

Mike

[grokh]

I haven't seen it discussed on the thread so what about this new card :

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/132453829268-0-1/s-l1000.jpg

It seems nice on a Veteran explorer, or a Rector maybe ?

[Ricardio]

I have been out of legacy for a while now so these thoughts are only speculative:
I think Jund might be stronger at the moment for cards like blood sun and REB.
blood sun and groves makes me wanna pfire kids down
carnaage tyrant as a finisher needs to be tested
bob builds seem strong but counter intuitive for a "ramp deck"
Choke seems like a must have in the board
nyx fit seems too cute albeit isnt that nic fits middle name?
cards like thrun and broodmate seem well positioned

[pettdan]

@grokh: I think Recurring Nightmare does it much better. Playing the enchantment and having the creature it targets removed in response is miserable.

@Ricardio: sounds like good ideas to me. I think Thrun is well positioned too, but also when I compare it to another copy of Tracker it seems better, costing less, hitting similarly hard or harder and bringing card advantage. But still, Thrun seems better than in a while.

[Ricardio]

@Ricardio: sounds like good ideas to me. I think Thrun is well positioned too, but also when I compare it to another copy of Tracker it seems better, costing less, hitting similarly hard or harder and bringing card advantage. But still, Thrun seems better than in a while.

i agree that tracker is very strong but thrun can be that unstoppable card we need to stall or get throw large blockers using pfires
tracker dies to most things where as thrun needs a damnation or deluge to unstick him from the opponents anus

thoughts on Xenagod as a gszable powerhouse? 8/8 thrun, 6/4 tracker, etc

[Ralf]

General criteria:
1 - 6 mana or less
1 - Card advantage
1 - Can GSZ (optional?)

Combat:
1 - Beats Strix
Beats Angler
Beats TNN
Beats Griselbrand
1 - Beats Delver
1 - Beats Jace
1 - Beats Leovold
Beats Marit Lage
1 - Beats TKS
Beats Reality Smasher
1 - Beats DRS
1 - Beats Lingering Souls
1 - Beats Pyromancer
Beats Tarmogoyf

Resiliency
1 - Beats Fatal Push @2
1 - Beats Fatal Push @4
1 - Beats STP
Beats Bolt
1 - Beats Deed
1 - Beats Deluge
Beats Decay
Beats Pulse
Beats FoW
1 - Beats Spell Snare
1 - Beats Spell Pierce
1 - Beats Daze
1 - Beats Stifle
1 - Beats Terminus
1 - Beats Tabernacle
Beats Punishing Fire
1 - Beats Jitte
1 - Beats Chalice
1 - Beats Kommand
Beats Discard

Evasion:
Relevant protection
Evasion ability
1 - Goes wide

The most underrated card right now is Mystic Enforcer.
If you find a way to protect your threslhold, this card is amazing (Ground Seal or the new artifact for examples).

Cheers,

Ralf

[Ricardio]

The most underrated card right now is Mystic Enforcer.
If you find a way to protect your threslhold, this card is amazing (Ground Seal or the new artifact for examples).

Cheers,

Ralf

Do you have a moment to speak of our new saviour Carnage Tyrant?

[Brael]

I'll start adding stuff on monday

Great. The card list should be easy, as it's really just a collection of the highly played cards in the format. I think some website (mtgtop8?) even lists the top 100 or 150 cards by frequency. So really, the rules for card evaluation are the big thing to build.


I haven't seen it discussed on the thread so what about this new card :
It seems nice on a Veteran explorer, or a Rector maybe ?

3 mana, does nothing to effect the board. Enchantment so vulnerable to a 2 for 1 innately. Flip side involves high risk and Wasteland vulnerability, and to even gain your first card you'll have had to sink 9 mana into it.


@Ricardio: sounds like good ideas to me. I think Thrun is well positioned too, but also when I compare it to another copy of Tracker it seems better, costing less, hitting similarly hard or harder and bringing card advantage. But still, Thrun seems better than in a while.

Chameleon Colossus is basically a harder hitting Thrun. It beats anything in combat, dodges most removal and the protection is pretty good.


The most underrated card right now is Mystic Enforcer.
If you find a way to protect your threslhold, this card is amazing (Ground Seal or the new artifact for examples).

Cheers,

Ralf

Didn't even realize that was a card. I think in most situations though, you would rather just have Sigarda if you want resilience, or a Rhino if you want reach. This card strikes a weird middle ground between the two.

[Ralf]

Didn't even realize that was a card. I think in most situations though, you would rather just have Sigarda if you want resilience, or a Rhino if you want reach. This card strikes a weird middle ground between the two.

Chameleon is a good beater. It can close games very fast.

And I disagree about Mystic.

In numerous MU, the card is more powerful than a Rhino or a Sigarda.
Sigarda doesn't block a gurmag/smasher and gets to live.
Sigarda doesn't attack into a baleful strix
Sigarda doesn't chump a Marit Lage/Grisel every turn.
The same could be said about Rhino.

The only thing you have to consider is to be able to build a deck around this card (and find a way to protect your threshold). Sigarda/Rhino can also be in the deck where Mystic can/should be x4.

My starting point would be something like that:

You should be able to meet threshold quite fast and protect it. Ground seal shut off many cards in Legacy's meta right now.

Of course, numbers have to be adjusted and a proper sideboard should be brewed (obviously to combat bad MUs):


4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Perilous Research
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Ponder
1 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Mystic Enforcer
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
3 Veteran Explorer

4 Ground Seal

3 Engineered Explosives

2 Tropical Island
2 Island
2 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Savannah
2 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest

This is 56 cards. The last 4 should be 4 more creatures (which 2 should be blue and green at least to support FOW MD and at least 1 should give you life back).

@ Ricardo: Sure mate. What do you want me to talk about ? That dino is a "monster"; a true one. The only problem I have with him is that:
- CMC 6 is no joke
- If you are able to zenith for 7, you are already winning (most of the time, and if not, his tanking ability is just above the average (not flying is a pain).
- He is a beater not a clear "utility" card. I think we can afford 0 to 1 beater max depending on your build. Velocity in Legacy is a thing and to my taste he isn't veloce enough (at the moment)
- He is shining against one MU I believe: the new miracle and that it's.


Happy brewing everyone !

Ralf

[Brael]

This is 56 cards. The last 4 should be 4 more creatures (which 2 should be blue and green at least to support FOW MD and at least 1 should give you life back).


I don't like FoW, it requires too many blue cards that just add air. I think you would be better off adding some flash threats like EDF and Clique. Then you could use cards like Flusterstorm and Spell Pierce as your counters.

If you want to enable the GY, I've been playing BUG lately to some success on MTGO and have been using Search for Azcanta, it's a good enabler but it still rarely hits 7 cards to flip.

You're still talking about a Bant build though, which I think is much worse than including black.

[Ralf]

I don't like FoW, it requires too many blue cards that just add air. I think you would be better off adding some flash threats like EDF and Clique. Then you could use cards like Flusterstorm and Spell Pierce as your counters.

If you want to enable the GY, I've been playing BUG lately to some success on MTGO and have been using Search for Azcanta, it's a good enabler but it still rarely hits 7 cards to flip.

You're still talking about a Bant build though, which I think is much worse than including black.

I would tend to disagree here.
Blue is the best color just because of permission and brainstorm.
The number of hands a brainstorm can fix is really high.

Historically speaking Nic Fit has been playing black for the cabal therapy combo with veteran and pernicious deed.

Since Delve and Eldrazi are a thing, Pernicious is no longer a good choice.
CT is also a hit or miss kind of thing and forces you to play ritual speed.

According to me, the times when black > blue are over (SDT's departure put the last nail in the coffin if you ask me). This is unfortunate but at least we can evolve as well.

With Perilous Research, you gain the advantage to be the first to exploit your free basics and for the sake of it, you'll end up interacting more with what your opponent is doing.
Perilous can be great without veteran (responding to a wasteland, a removal on your creature etc...), this is harder to say for CT.

Anyway, if you are very reluctant to play blue, you can remove blue and add your usual suspects in black.

My two cents.

[Brael]

I'm not reluctant to play blue at all, I'm playing it right now on MTGO. Here's my list
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/bug-nic-fit-3/

What I'm reluctant about is FoW and the cantrip cabal that enables it. I don't think it's a good addition to Nic Fit.

[Brael]

No idea if this is any good, but I've been thinking about an EDF list that can use a mixture of flash, azcanta, clues, and removal to play at instant speed. Currently at 62, I would like to either find a cut and make it 61, or add a 7th basic and another tracker and make it 64. 61 would be preferred.

Land 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas

Creatures 19
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Baleful Strix
1 Eternal Witness
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Pack Guardian
1 Cloudthresher
1 Elder Deep-Fiend

Spells 21
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
1 Collective Brutality
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Search for Azcanta
2 Diabolic Edict

[Echelon]

General criteria:
1 - 6 mana or less
1 - Card advantage
1 - Can GSZ (optional?)

Combat:
1 - Beats Strix
Beats Angler
Beats TNN
Beats Griselbrand
1 - Beats Delver
1 - Beats Jace
1 - Beats Leovold
Beats Marit Lage
1 - Beats TKS
Beats Reality Smasher
1 - Beats DRS
1 - Beats Lingering Souls
1 - Beats Pyromancer
Beats Tarmogoyf

Resiliency
1 - Beats Fatal Push @2
1 - Beats Fatal Push @4
1 - Beats STP
Beats Bolt
1 - Beats Deed
1 - Beats Deluge
Beats Decay
Beats Pulse
Beats FoW
1 - Beats Spell Snare
1 - Beats Spell Pierce
1 - Beats Daze
1 - Beats Stifle
1 - Beats Terminus
1 - Beats Tabernacle
Beats Punishing Fire
1 - Beats Jitte
1 - Beats Chalice
1 - Beats Kommand
Beats Discard

Evasion:
Relevant protection
Evasion ability
1 - Goes wide


Great. The card list should be easy, as it's really just a collection of the highly played cards in the format. I think some website (mtgtop8?) even lists the top 100 or 150 cards by frequency.

Yeah, I'm just going to name the cards (or even mechanics) I'm missing. I'm swamped and my head hurts like a motherfucker.

Beats Storm
Beats Natural Order
Beats small creature strategies
Beats Show and Tell
Beats Liliana of the Veil
Beats Batterskull
Beats Life from the Loam (which sooner is the problem than Marit Lage)
Beats Emrakul
Beats Food Chain
Beats Trinisphere

[Brael]

Yeah, I'm just going to name the cards (or even mechanics) I'm missing. I'm swamped and my head hurts like a motherfucker.

Beats Storm
Beats Natural Order
Beats small creature strategies
Beats Show and Tell
Beats Liliana of the Veil
Beats Batterskull
Beats Life from the Loam (which sooner is the problem than Marit Lage)
Beats Emrakul
Beats Food Chain
Beats Trinisphere

I think you're mixing up beating strategies with beating cards. For example Storm would more likely be "Beats Echoing Truth" or "Beats Tendrils" or "Beats Empty the Warrens". Beating Natural Order is beating the cards they get like Progenitus or Craterhoof, a counterspell would be ranked on beating NO, a finisher would be ranked on beating what they get. Make sense?

[Valkyrie]

Sorry for asking again.
Any thoughts, feelings, suggestions or questions for my two lists from page 151?

So my preferred list currently looks:

Thanks in advance. :smile:

Deck: 4c - Nic Fit (https://deckstats.net/decks/97262/890771-4c-nic-fit/de) https://deckstats.net/mana/m/w.gif https://deckstats.net/mana/m/u.gif https://deckstats.net/mana/m/b.gif https://deckstats.net/mana/m/g.gif

//Beating Things
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Atraxa%2C+Praetors%27+Voice)
1 Deathrite Shaman (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Deathrite+Shaman)
1 Dragonlord Dromoka (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Dragonlord+Dromoka)
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Leovold%2C+Emissary+of+Trest)
1 Noble Hierarch (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Noble+Hierarch)
1 Scavenging Ooze (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Scavenging+Ooze)
1 Siege Rhino (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Siege+Rhino)
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Sigarda%2C+Host+of+Herons)
1 Stoic Angel (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Stoic+Angel)
1 Tarmogoyf (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Tarmogoyf)
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Titania%2C+Protector+of+Argoth)
4 Veteran Explorer (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Veteran+Explorer)
1 Voice of Resurgence (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Voice+of+Resurgence)

//Paying Things
2 Bayou (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Bayou)
2 Forest (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Forest)
1 Island (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Island)
1 Karakas (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Karakas)
2 Marsh Flats (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Marsh+Flats)
1 Phyrexian Tower (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Phyrexian+Tower)
1 Plains (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Plains)
2 Savannah (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Savannah)
1 Scrubland (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Scrubland)
1 Swamp (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Swamp)
1 Tropical Island (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Tropical+Island)
1 Tundra (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Tundra)
3 Verdant Catacombs (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Verdant+Catacombs)
1 Volrath's Stronghold (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Volrath%27s+Stronghold)
2 Windswept Heath (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Windswept+Heath)

//Destroing Things
2 Abrupt Decay (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Abrupt+Decay)
4 Cabal Therapy (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Cabal+Therapy)
1 Maelstrom Pulse (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Maelstrom+Pulse)
2 Path to Exile (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Path+to+Exile)
3 Pernicious Deed (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Pernicious+Deed)
1 Vindicate (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Vindicate)

//Valuing Things
1 Diabolic Intent (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Diabolic+Intent)
4 Green Sun's Zenith (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Green+Sun%27s+Zenith)
2 Lingering Souls (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Lingering+Souls)
1 Nissa, Steward of Elements (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Nissa%2C+Steward+of+Elements)
1 Recurring Nightmare (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Recurring+Nightmare)

//Sideboard
2 Diabolic Edict (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Diabolic+Edict)
1 Ethersworn Canonist (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Ethersworn+Canonist)
1 Gaddock Teeg (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Gaddock+Teeg)
1 Krosan Grip (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Krosan+Grip)
1 Pithing Needle (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Pithing+Needle)
1 Qasali Pridemage (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Qasali+Pridemage)
4 Surgical Extraction (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Surgical+Extraction)
2 Thoughtseize (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Thoughtseize)
2 Toxic Deluge (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Toxic+Deluge)

https://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Deckstatistik anzeigen (https://deckstats.net/decks/97262/890771-4c-nic-fit)

[Ricardio]

Yeah, I'm just going to name the cards (or even mechanics) I'm missing. I'm swamped and my head hurts like a motherfucker.

Beats Storm - teeg, eid of rhetoric/canonist, quicken tendril in resp to them tendril you?, mindbreak trap
Beats Natural Order - containtment priest, graf cage, moat, bridge
Beats small creature strategies - doomwake, ghostly prison, bridge, moat
Beats Show and Tell - containment priest, ashen rider cards,
Beats Liliana of the Veil - sigarda loh, obstinate baloth, bottled cloister
Beats Batterskull - rhino, grip, pulse, vindicate, Qpmage
Beats Life from the Loam (which sooner is the problem than Marit Lage) - surgical, ground seal, mystic enforcer, blood sun, blood moon
Beats Emrakul - baleful strix, sigarda loh, bridge, containment priest
Beats Food Chain - grip, decay, lost legcay/slaught game, eidolon of rhet/canonist,
Beats Trinisphere - grip, pulse, decay, draw lands, rhino costs 4 anyways, gsz cost 5 to get rhino anyways

[Brael]

Beats Storm - teeg, eid of rhetoric/canonist, quicken tendril in resp to them tendril you?, mindbreak trap
Beats Natural Order - containtment priest, graf cage, moat, bridge
Beats small creature strategies - doomwake, ghostly prison, bridge, moat
Beats Show and Tell - containment priest, ashen rider cards,
Beats Liliana of the Veil - sigarda loh, obstinate baloth, bottled cloister
Beats Batterskull - rhino, grip, pulse, vindicate, Qpmage
Beats Life from the Loam (which sooner is the problem than Marit Lage) - surgical, ground seal, mystic enforcer, blood sun, blood moon
Beats Emrakul - baleful strix, sigarda loh, bridge, containment priest
Beats Food Chain - grip, decay, lost legcay/slaught game, eidolon of rhet/canonist,
Beats Trinisphere - grip, pulse, decay, draw lands, rhino costs 4 anyways, gsz cost 5 to get rhino anyways

Looking for things in the other order. I'll post a matrix to fill in once we establish proper rules. It seems mtgtop8 lists the 653 most played cards in Legacy right now. Listed by percent of decks, and amounts contained. Tomorrow hopefully, I can cut that list down and put it into a spreadsheet. Meant to do it today, but work ran long.

So what I would need more than anything right now. Would be a list of possible Nic Fit finishers/mid level cards. And rules for card comparisons.

[Brael]

Sorry for asking again.
Any thoughts, feelings, suggestions or questions for my two lists from page 151?

So my preferred list currently looks:

Thanks in advance. :smile:

Deck: 4c - Nic Fit (https://deckstats.net/decks/97262/890771-4c-nic-fit/de) https://deckstats.net/mana/m/w.gif https://deckstats.net/mana/m/u.gif https://deckstats.net/mana/m/b.gif https://deckstats.net/mana/m/g.gif

//Beating Things
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Atraxa%2C+Praetors%27+Voice)
1 Deathrite Shaman (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Deathrite+Shaman)
1 Dragonlord Dromoka (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Dragonlord+Dromoka)
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Leovold%2C+Emissary+of+Trest)
1 Noble Hierarch (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Noble+Hierarch)
1 Scavenging Ooze (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Scavenging+Ooze)
1 Siege Rhino (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Siege+Rhino)
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Sigarda%2C+Host+of+Herons)
1 Stoic Angel (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Stoic+Angel)
1 Tarmogoyf (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Tarmogoyf)
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Titania%2C+Protector+of+Argoth)
4 Veteran Explorer (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Veteran+Explorer)
1 Voice of Resurgence (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Voice+of+Resurgence)

//Paying Things
2 Bayou (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Bayou)
2 Forest (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Forest)
1 Island (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Island)
1 Karakas (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Karakas)
2 Marsh Flats (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Marsh+Flats)
1 Phyrexian Tower (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Phyrexian+Tower)
1 Plains (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Plains)
2 Savannah (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Savannah)
1 Scrubland (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Scrubland)
1 Swamp (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Swamp)
1 Tropical Island (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Tropical+Island)
1 Tundra (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Tundra)
3 Verdant Catacombs (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Verdant+Catacombs)
1 Volrath's Stronghold (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Volrath%27s+Stronghold)
2 Windswept Heath (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Windswept+Heath)

//Destroing Things
2 Abrupt Decay (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Abrupt+Decay)
4 Cabal Therapy (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Cabal+Therapy)
1 Maelstrom Pulse (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Maelstrom+Pulse)
2 Path to Exile (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Path+to+Exile)
3 Pernicious Deed (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Pernicious+Deed)
1 Vindicate (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Vindicate)

//Valuing Things
1 Diabolic Intent (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Diabolic+Intent)
4 Green Sun's Zenith (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Green+Sun%27s+Zenith)
2 Lingering Souls (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Lingering+Souls)
1 Nissa, Steward of Elements (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Nissa%2C+Steward+of+Elements)
1 Recurring Nightmare (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Recurring+Nightmare)

//Sideboard
2 Diabolic Edict (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Diabolic+Edict)
1 Ethersworn Canonist (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Ethersworn+Canonist)
1 Gaddock Teeg (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Gaddock+Teeg)
1 Krosan Grip (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Krosan+Grip)
1 Pithing Needle (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Pithing+Needle)
1 Qasali Pridemage (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Qasali+Pridemage)
4 Surgical Extraction (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Surgical+Extraction)
2 Thoughtseize (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Thoughtseize)
2 Toxic Deluge (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Toxic+Deluge)

https://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Deckstatistik anzeigen (https://deckstats.net/decks/97262/890771-4c-nic-fit)

Seems clunky. Lots of expensive stuff, little cheap stuff, less than optimal ramping, no ability to interact with unfair decks.

[Echelon]

@Valkyrie: Your manabase is wildly unstable and there are a number of sub optimal and slow choices.

I'd cut the following (12):
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Voice of Resurgence
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Nissa, Steward of Elements
2 Lingering Souls
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Karakas

In favor of:
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Verdant Catacombs
And a free slot. Not sure what to do with that yet. Maybe discard, maybe spotremoval, maybe a 4th DRS.

This way you at least get some more ramp and improve the stability of your manabase (and mana development) and consistency of your list. G1 vs. combo will still be abysmal though, but at least the list won't crap on itself anymore.

[Valkyrie]

Hey Folks,

and thx for your feedback, looks pretty tough. :eek:

Maybe a short explanation for some specific cards:
The current meta in Germany is flooded with delver, so Lingering Souls was an auto include for me, since the last tournament i played in december.
On the other hand, only a few decks can handle even flying creatures. But sigarda and dragonlord are too late to build up pressure here.
So Atraxa and Stoic Angel are pretty good 4cc Flyers in my opinion and Vigilance is underestimated in my eyes.

The 4 cards with a blue splash getting fixed with a least 4 blue mana sources. So far I have not really had any problems with mana fixing.
Karakas is against Emrakul or to save Sigarda, Atraxa...

I have to think about thats for a while, but a big thank you for your suggestions.

Greetings,

Mike

[Matsu]

Hey Folks,

and thx for your feedback, looks pretty tough. :eek:

Maybe a short explanation for some specific cards:
The current meta in Germany is flooded with delver, so Lingering Souls was an auto include for me, since the last tournament i played in december.
On the other hand, only a few decks can handle even flying creatures. But sigarda and dragonlord are too late to build up pressure here.
So Atraxa and Stoic Angel are pretty good 4cc Flyers in my opinion and Vigilance is underestimated in my eyes.

The 4 cards with a blue splash getting fixed with a least 4 blue mana sources. So far I have not really had any problems with mana fixing.
Karakas is against Emrakul or to save Sigarda, Atraxa...

I have to think about thats for a while, but a big thank you for your suggestions.

Greetings,

Mike

If your meta is flooded with Delver, it is good for you. You should have an 60% win ratio against Grixis Delver which will drop to 50% against Team America.

I posted my list a couple of pages ago. I play straight WBG in a meta with lots of Blade deck & 2 Grixis decks.

Here is my way to build Classic Nic Fit:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31293-Primer-Nic-Fit&p=1030618&highlight=#post1030618

[Echelon]

@Matsu: By my experience, percentages vs. BUG & Grixis are the other way around. BUG is very hard to lose, Grixis (with Stifles, Fatal Push and a pilot used to the Nic Fit MU) can go down as far as 50/50 (and 60/40 postboard). I like how you stick to the mathematical side of deckbuilding, but I still tend to be a bit more stringent than that with my Junk list.

@Valkyrie: The key with Nic Fit is to be able to hold on for dear life during the early game, survive through that, stabilize and increasingly put pressure on your opponent. You can do that with Souls, but Tireless Tracker for instance plays much better w/ your removal and gameplan. It doesn't always die to Deed/Deluge and lets you draw those extra cards you need to bury your opponent. It being green and therefor GSZ-able is pretty big too.

[Matsu]

I found this interesting list top 8 a 30 players tournament in Japan. I am not a super fan of some cards, but those prosecutors and a minimal touch of white looks interesting.

2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
4 Abyssal Persecutor
1 Eternal Witness
1 Grave Titan
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
4 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Path to Exile
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Innocent Blood
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sylvan Library
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited

Sideboard
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Golgari Charm
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
1 Choke
1 Sorcerous Spyglass

[Ricardio]

I found this interesting list top 8 a 30 players tournament in Japan. I am not a super fan of some cards, but those prosecutors and a minimal touch of white looks interesting.

2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
4 Abyssal Persecutor
1 Eternal Witness
1 Grave Titan
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
4 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Path to Exile
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Innocent Blood
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sylvan Library
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited

Sideboard
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Golgari Charm
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
1 Choke
1 Sorcerous Spyglass

that list tickles my fancy, if you know what i mean
i would like more paths main and obviously the sideboard is meta dependant
wonderful find, Matsu

[Brael]

Going back to the idea I posted a few days ago, I used mtgtop8 data, to place the top 633 cards in Legacy. Then I scored each one by percent of decks it appears in * number in deck. I sorted that and then tagged the top 200 cards (I can do more if necessary) as either a Land, Spell (essentially, an enabler), Threat, or Answer from the perspective of our cards/finishers. Threat and Answer are the categories we're interested in here.

There were 41 answer cards in this list. So those are the 41 we can rank cards against as one measure of resiliency.
Force of Will
Daze
Lightning Bolt
Swords to Plowshares
Chalice of the Void
Cabal Therapy
Baleful Strix
Thoughtseize
Spell Pierce
Abrupt Decay
Fatal Push
Hymn to Tourach
Terminus
Umezawa's Jitte
Counterspell
Mother of Runes
Duress
Punishing Fire
Kolaghan's Command
Stifle
Flusterstorm
Blood Moon
Counterbalance
Dismember
Chain Lightning
Council's Judgment
Collective Brutality
Forked Bolt
Magus of the Moon
Pithing Needle
Fiery Confluence
All Is Dust
Bojuka Bog
Diabolic Edict
Toxic Deluge
Fireblast
Warping Wail
Inquisition of Kozilek
Rift Bolt
Spell Snare
Supreme Verdict

There were an additional 62 threats which we can use to rank our answer cards against for viability, or for our threats to beat.
Deathrite Shaman
Delver of Secrets
Snapcaster Mage
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
True-Name Nemesis
Stoneforge Mystic
Young Pyromancer
Tundra
Griselbrand
Thought-Knot Seer
Gurmag Angler
Dark Depths
Leovold, Emissary of Trest
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Reality Smasher
Eldrazi Mimic
Matter Reshaper
Flickerwisp
Endless One
Tarmogoyf
Phyrexian Revoker
Chancellor of the Annex
Liliana of the Veil
Walking Ballista
Trinisphere
Knight of the Reliquary
Batterskull
Recruiter of the Guard
Endbringer
Dark Confidant
Monastery Mentor
Elvish Visionary
Wirewood Symbiote
Mirran Crusader
Sword of Fire and Ice
Nettle Sentinel
Monastery Swiftspear
Quirion Ranger
Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Heritage Druid
Blighted Agent
Glistener Elf
Inkmoth Nexus
Invigorate
Liliana, the Last Hope
Bridge from Below
Golgari Grave-Troll
Narcomoeba
Stinkweed Imp
Oblivion Sower
Vendilion Clique
Sylvan Safekeeper
Nimble Mongoose
Golgari Thug
Veteran Explorer
Ichorid
Cursecatcher
Goblin Rabblemaster
Lord of Atlantis
Master of the Pearl Trident
Silvergill Adept
Street Wraith
Eidolon of the Great Revel
Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
Grim Lavamancer
Goblin Guide
Craterhoof Behemoth
Entreat the Angels

Combined this is 103 cards. That's pushing the limits for what we want as far as data entry goes, but it seems reasonable enough. The next step is to make a list of Nic Fit cards that we want to rank. For that, I'm going to use primer data, general deck knowledge, and stuff we've discussed in the past X pages (I'll basically go back until I get bored). I'm placing a limit of 75 cards on this as that's still going to result in A LOT of data entry (7,725 cells worth to be exact) that we can hopefully fill collaboratively.

Edit: Specifically excluded Nyx because it shares no cards with other variants so it would take too many slots. A Nyx player can do this for that specific variant if they want. Between the primer and the past 20 pages of this thread (which goes back several months, since so much discussion has moved to discord), there were 63 cards that fit either the threat or answer category.
Pernicious Deed
Toxic Deluge
Eternal Witness
Deathrite Shaman
Tireless Tracker
Meren of Clan Nel Toth
Atraxa, Praetor's Voice
Leovold, Emissary of Trest
Siege Rhino
Abrupt Decay
Thragtusk
Gaddock Teeg
Primeval Titan
Inferno Titan
Punishing Fire
Nissa, Vital Force
Baleful Strix
Sigarda, Host of Herons
Dragonlord Dromoka
Cabal Therapy
Umezawa's Jitte
Sword of Feast and Famine
Sword of Light and Shadow
Sword of Fire and Ice
Vendilion Clique
Master of the Wild Hunt
Garruk Relentless
Kaya, Ghost Assassin
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Path to Exile
Vindicate
Dark Confidant
Courser of Kruphix
Obstinate Baloth
Scavenging Ooze
Thrun, the Last Troll
Chameleon Colossus
Karakas
Bojuka Bog
Diabolic Edict
Liliana, the Last Hope
Stoneforge Mystic
Batterskull
Swords to Plowshares
Pack Guardian
Huntmaster of the Fells
Cloudthresher
Elder Deep-Fiend
Emrakul, the Promised End
Maelstrom Pulse
Punishing Fire
Lightning Bolt
Collective Brutality
Nissa, Vastwood Seer
Titania, Protector of Argoth
Fatal Push
Liliana of the Veil
Glissa, the Traitor
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Carnage Tyrant
To the Slaughter
Regisaur Alpha
Scapeshift

Next step: Building rules to consistently compare one card to the other.

[Echelon]

That's going to be a LOT of data entry. Damn!

[Brael]

That's going to be a LOT of data entry. Damn!

Now you see why a side project of mine is to try and automate it.

There's some things that can be done to minimize it, but this is why consistent rules for rating cards against each other are needed.

[Kobra_D]

Hey Folks,

and thx for your feedback, looks pretty tough. :eek:

Maybe a short explanation for some specific cards:
The current meta in Germany is flooded with delver, so Lingering Souls was an auto include for me, since the last tournament i played in december.
On the other hand, only a few decks can handle even flying creatures. But sigarda and dragonlord are too late to build up pressure here.
So Atraxa and Stoic Angel are pretty good 4cc Flyers in my opinion and Vigilance is underestimated in my eyes.

The 4 cards with a blue splash getting fixed with a least 4 blue mana sources. So far I have not really had any problems with mana fixing.
Karakas is against Emrakul or to save Sigarda, Atraxa...

I have to think about thats for a while, but a big thank you for your suggestions.

Greetings,

Mike


I would actually suggest a slightly different direction. This deck might be more reasonable with glittering wish, a card that I always thought was cool but never got working.

You can keep a deed, and some of the larger clunky creatures in your board wish access through 2/3 wishes. That then opens up more slots for early interaction/disruption.

Plus, sometimes you end up facing burn and dromoka might be too slow, or you face storm and don't get teeg until g2/g3. It might be worth a consideration.

There was also a loam/dragonlord deck that had some results back in January 2017. I forgot who came up with the idea but it looked like a ton of fun in this 4c way.

@Brael Do you have the list of one of the older EDF builds? I can't seem to find it when you brought it up a few months ago and I am itching to try it.

[Valkyrie]

Hey Folks,

Over the past few days, I've been working on my stack trying to incorporate the changes echelon has suggested.
In my opinion these changes fits better in my Rector Nic Fit - Version.

+2 Tireless Tracker
+2 Deathrite Shaman
+1 Verdant Catacombs
+2 Scroll Rack instead of Mirri's Guile and Sylvan Library / so that I get drawn enchantments back to the library
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Quasali Pridemage

The Rector "Splash" gives me alternative win-conditions and a better preboard MU against Show&Tell, without giving up the beatdown plan.
Actual there are 61 cards, i can't decide which one i wanna cut.

Deck: Rector - Nic Fit (https://deckstats.net/decks/97262/885713-rector-nic-fit/de) https://deckstats.net/mana/m/w.gif https://deckstats.net/mana/m/u.gif https://deckstats.net/mana/m/b.gif https://deckstats.net/mana/m/g.gif

//Main
2 Abrupt Decay (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Abrupt+Decay)
4 Cabal Therapy (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Cabal+Therapy)
1 Diabolic Intent (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Diabolic+Intent)
4 Green Sun's Zenith (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Green+Sun%27s+Zenith)
2 Path to Exile (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Path+to+Exile)
1 Toxic Deluge (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Toxic+Deluge)
1 Vindicate (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Vindicate)

//Creatures
2 Academy Rector (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Academy+Rector)
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Atraxa%2C+Praetors%27+Voice)
3 Deathrite Shaman (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Deathrite+Shaman)
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Leovold%2C+Emissary+of+Trest)
1 Qasali Pridemage (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Qasali+Pridemage)
1 Scavenging Ooze (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Scavenging+Ooze)
1 Siege Rhino (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Siege+Rhino)
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Sigarda%2C+Host+of+Herons)
2 Tireless Tracker (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Tireless+Tracker)
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Titania%2C+Protector+of+Argoth)
4 Veteran Explorer (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Veteran+Explorer)

//Lands
2 Bayou (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Bayou)
1 Forest (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Forest)
1 Island (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Island)
1 Karakas (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Karakas)
2 Marsh Flats (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Marsh+Flats)
1 Phyrexian Tower (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Phyrexian+Tower)
1 Plains (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Plains)
2 Savannah (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Savannah)
1 Scrubland (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Scrubland)
1 Swamp (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Swamp)
1 Tropical Island (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Tropical+Island)
1 Tundra (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Tundra)
4 Verdant Catacombs (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Verdant+Catacombs)
1 Volrath's Stronghold (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Volrath%27s+Stronghold)
2 Windswept Heath (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Windswept+Heath)

//Enchantments & Artifacts
1 Cruel Reality (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Cruel+Reality)
1 Overwhelming Splendor (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Overwhelming+Splendor)
2 Pernicious Deed (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Pernicious+Deed)
2 Scroll Rack (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Scroll+Rack)

//Sideboard
2 Diabolic Edict (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Diabolic+Edict)
1 Ethersworn Canonist (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Ethersworn+Canonist)
1 Gaddock Teeg (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Gaddock+Teeg)
1 Glissa, the Traitor (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Glissa%2C+the+Traitor)
1 Krosan Grip (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Krosan+Grip)
1 Pithing Needle (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Pithing+Needle)
1 Stoic Angel (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Stoic+Angel)
4 Surgical Extraction (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Surgical+Extraction)
2 Thoughtseize (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Thoughtseize)
1 Toxic Deluge (https://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Toxic+Deluge)

https://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Deckstatistik anzeigen (https://deckstats.net/decks/97262/885713-rector-nic-fit)


@Kobra_D : thanks for your suggestions. Maybe a nice idea, but I'm afraid it could cost a little too much time? I'm gonna try this out in my non-rector List.
But the thought of playing two toolboxes sounds tempting. :tongue:

Greetings,

Mike

[Matsu]

@Valkyrie
I think you do not play enough Basic Lands, this will become problematic when you will face decks with Wasteland.
The strongest force of NicFit is the possibility to fetch basics when your opponent cannot. Even in mid game playing an Explorer to block will help you ramp and filter your deck. During those grindy match ups you will definitely need more mana for your Beasts.
My personal preference is 6 to 8 basics.

I know Volrath stronghold is very strong, but I will play it only with Prime Titan. Meren can do the job better in my opinion. There is nothing worse when you need colored mana, but are stuck with the Two Towers.

Atraxa do not have a board impact in your list, the proliferate ability will only work with Ooze and Tracker, because you do not play planeswalker. She/he is difficult to cast, compared to TombStalker/Zombie fish/Goyf and she/he is a bad blocker for the cards mention above. Atraxa will kill all those cards, but this is a bad trade in my opinion.

If you want to splash blue I will stick to Leovold, my personal other picks are Edric spymaster or Sagu mauler depends on your build.

From my playtest you only need 2 blue mana source an island and Trop/U-sea. I even played only an island for 1 Leo and it worked. I will remove the tundra for a basic.

I will not include 2 copies of Academy Rector, I will go for the full playset. I was working before christmas on a mix build with 4 rector and a creature package, at the moment with out success.

Let me know how Scroll rack is working for you, I am on the sylvan library mode at the moment. I will be happy to explore this card.

Why Glissa in sideboard? She is great against Eldrazi, but you do not have any artifact worth reanimate. I used to play her in BladeFit with SFM, Jitte and Batterskull.

Golgari charm and another thoughtseize will be great. I am not sure about the 4th Extraction.

My 2 cents.

[Valkyrie]

Hey Matsu,

and thanks for your reply and your suggestions.
There some interesting points that you mention here.

I included two basic lands and cutted the volhrath stronghold.
I almost forgot that the veteran explorer not only accelerates but also filters.

Glissa is in the sideboard, cause she is great against Eldrazi and sometimes in other MU's. :smile:
I don't care about the artifact reanimate ability. But the sideboard is not fixed yet.

The same for Atraxa, i don't care about proliferate. Of course it is nice with Tireless Tracker or Ooze on the field, but that is not the point.
Without Atraxa there, Sigarda is the only creature left with flying, since Lingering Souls and Stoic Angel left the deck. This might be not enough. A Delver flipping in Turn 2 hits me to death, if i didn´t find an answer.

I have no intention of blocking a gurmag or tarmogoyf with Atraxa, if it is not absolutely necessary.
With Vigilance I can attack every round for 4 damage and get 4 lives for it. If it is necessary to block, i am trading 1vs1, getting 4 lives.
With 3 DRS, 1 Tundra, 1 Tropical and 1 Island it is easy to hardacst her. Otherwise i can bring it to the top with scroll rack. In most cases, I would like to bring them into play via GSZ anyway.

For my sideboard i could split for 3 Thoughtseize and 3 Surgical Extraction.
I already had golgari charm in the sideboard, should really belong there again. How I said, the sideboard is not fixed yet.

Thank you for your food for thought.
Now i have to go brewing for a while. :wink:

Greetings

Mike

[Echelon]

@Matsu: Atraxa's Proliferate and Glissa's artifact recurring ability are just flavor text :wink:. You just care about the other stuff.

I've run Atraxa before, but my main problems are her dying to Fatal Push and folding to Karakas. I've had that come up too often to want her over, say, Siege Rhino. That's why I'd rather cut Atraxa in Valkyrie's list than the other angel - you don't have to care about Karakas.

As for the list, I'm not a fan of mixing the Rector plan with the regular plan. You just end up with a worse version of both. The best middle ground would probably be a Rector list with a MD Sigarda, in my opinion.

[Valkyrie]

Hi Echelon,

and thanks again for replying! :wink:

Any creature costing equal or less than 4cc (as Rhino for example) will die from a Fatal Push, which is not an exclusion criterion for me.
On the other hand, I can protect the atraxa from removal with my own karakas.

I decided to test the variant without the academy rector, but with an Atraxa. :eek::tongue:

In Detail:

- 2 Academy Rector
- 1 Overwhelming Splendor
- 1 Cruel Reality
- 2 Scroll Rack

+ 2 Thoughtseize
+ 1 Pernicious Deed
+ 1 Nissa, Vital Force
+ 1 Tireless Tracker

And some slightly change in the sideboard, adding Golgari Charm and Rest in Peace.

Greetings,

Mike

[Echelon]

Karakas as a non-tutorable 1-of is rather unreliable, especially in the face of opposing Wastelands (which is usually a given) and considering you want to pair it with another specific 1-of :wink:

[Valkyrie]

Nooo, i don't want to pair it with another specific 1-of.
But by chance both cards can be on the field, usually for my opponents Karaks also is a 1-of.
Without the rector Enchantments, Karkas is nearly my only preboard answer to Show&Tell.
But maybe my opinion changes by playing some test games.

[Echelon]

D&T runs up to 3, Maverick/Lands can tutor for it.

Besides, how is what other decks do relevant for how your deck performs? Other decks running arbitrary numbers of Karakas doesn't make your deck less inconsistent.

Vs. S&T you lose G1, that's a given, even if you hit your 1-off Karakas. They can just build up a hand that beats that.

[p.faul01]

Any creature costing equal or less than 4cc (as Rhino for example) will die from a Fatal Push, which is not an exclusion criterion for me.
On the other hand, I can protect the atraxa from removal with my own karakas...


If you are scared of fatal push you can try thrun or chameleon collosus ;)

Gesendet von meinem SM-J320F mit Tapatalk

[Echelon]

Thrun is too small to make an impact. You'll need a SFM package to make that work.

[Valkyrie]

Ok, you convinced me. :wink:

I think it is time to play some test matches now.

@p.faul : I am not that afraid of Fatal Push, I just wanted to say that this is not an exclusion for me.
Thrun and Chameleon are nice beaters, but i don't have any space for them.

[Echelon]

Understand though - I like Karakas, I'm all for it, and I want to like Atraxa, badly. I've just had Atraxa backfire on me so many times.

So yes to Karakas, no to Atraxa :smile:.

Good luck man!

[Brael]

Making more updates to flash.

Land 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas

Creatures 19
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Baleful Strix
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Eternal Witness
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Pack Guardian
1 Cloudthresher
1 Elder Deep-Fiend

Spells 20
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
1 Collective Brutality
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Search for Azcanta
2 Diabolic Edict

Got it down to 61 and worked in Scryb Ranger for a lower mana flash option. It also functions as some more mana acceleration.


Thrun is too small to make an impact. You'll need a SFM package to make that work.

Thrun is ok, but not great. As a 4/4 it's power is one too low to beat the big things, and at 4 toughness it's too small to survive the big things. So you end up regenerating a lot, or just blocking.

[Brael]

D&T runs up to 3, Maverick/Lands can tutor for it.

Besides, how is what other decks do relevant for how your deck performs? Other decks running arbitrary numbers of Karakas doesn't make your deck less inconsistent.

Vs. S&T you lose G1, that's a given, even if you hit your 1-off Karakas. They can just build up a hand that beats that.

Karakas really needs Crop Rotation backing it, so that you can put the Karakas out at instant speed to beat something. That makes it harder to beat.

[Ricardio]

Thrun is too small to make an impact. You'll need a SFM package to make that work.

thrun in jund with Kessig Wolf Run and Xenagod?
dream world, i know.
sfm with thrun is definitely correct along with no deeds and lingering souls to make a larger frankenstein maverick/deadguy ale

[Echelon]

Also works. Glad to see you're still here. Join the Discord, dammit :laugh:

[Warden]

What does red splash run as finishers? Price, Regis, and Tyrant?

[Echelon]

Just the latter 2

[Brael]

One more change to flash. 4 cuts, 4 Brainstorms added. Goldfishing felt interaction light, so I'm going to cut interaction and add Brainstorm. This also helps the flash side of things. Removed Collective Brutality, Tireless Tracker, Pernicious Deed, and Phyrexian Tower.

Land 21
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas

Creatures 18
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Baleful Strix
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Pack Guardian
1 Cloudthresher
1 Elder Deep-Fiend

Spells 22
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
1 Vona's Hunger
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Search for Azcanta
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Brainstorm

Edit: Don't want to spam another post on this. One more change, SoFaF to Umezawa's Jitte.

I also feel like either Jace or Eternal Witness should be a Snapcaster Mage. If Jace is the cut, I lose a t2 dig card but gain a strict upgrade for flashback. If Eternal Witness is the cut I lose a GSZ line we almost all include by default normally, but cut a mana and gain better timing. In practice I find I only GSZ for Witness when getting removal anyways, so with the mana cut it's basically better to Snapcaster here.

Edit 2: New card Vona's Hunger in over Toxic Deluge because it's instant.

Edit 3: Snapcaster Mage over Eternal Witness. With this change, the instant speed count moves up to 24 which is the same number that Pile has, to give some indication of the decks tempo (it's just bigger cards... but we have ramp for that). That's the goal I was trying to get to, so I think I'll be taking this through a league to report back, once I figure out a sideboard.

[Warden]

My fiance encouraged me to take advantage of a free Saturday. For those unaware, I really don't play magic too often (we're talking a handful of days a year I'll actually play competitively). Both DnT and Maverick felt like poor choices heading into Mythic -- leaving me with Nic Fit.

This past week I touched base with Kev, joined the Discord, and had a vision of what I wanted: GBwr. Unfortunately this plan was shelved in favor of straight Junk because Mythic didn't have the new dinosaurs in stock. Not the biggest bummer in the world. Major shout out to Kev for helping construct the below list 40 minutes before the event. He filled me in on what's trending/working. We had a friendly debate over some finishing touches (I'll speak to this later). I also threw caution into the wind with my SB, favoring fun wtf stuff that's worked well for me in the past > trendy "let's squeeze the potential out of every slot for your list".

4 Windswept
3 Verdant
1 Foothills
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
/22

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Sylvan Library
1 Painful Truths
2 Nissa, Vital Force
/21

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite
1 Sakura
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2 Tireless Tracker
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
/18

SB
3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Council's Judgment
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
/15

Overall I went 2-3-1. I was happy with how the deck performed and had a great time. Notes by round.
R1: Zane / UWr stoneforge-TNN aggro (not Miracles). Tie
*probably the most pimp deck all day. foils, miscuts, and cards hand-altered into other languages. He was a fantastic player. 30 minute G1 loss. I roared back to a victory G2 by being the more grindy/resilient deck. I remember blowing up 2 equipments in the second game en route to winning.

R2: Kev / Nic Fit (Jund-Scapewish). Win
*Definitely the most relaxing match of the day. We laughed as we sat down (being that Kev knew all 76 of my cards). He offered some suggestions as we played to help me better understand more subtle interactions. Unfortunately, this entire round was a blowout. Game 1 steamrolled: ramping and playing 5 drops while Kev was stuck on 2 lands (no green). Game 2 I ensured a victory through a topdeck Natural Order. He will probably write the play-by-play. I had a very hard decision early game 2 that we both agreed I probably made the right call on. Rhino overpowered Regis.

R3. Logan? / Storm. Loss
*He fizzled game 1. Then I think I misplayed game 2 (where I should have extracted him immediately rather than let him take the card turn 2 with duress). Game 3 I thoughtseize but he had the nuts and went off immediately after anyway. My biggest pet peeve of the day was how long this guy took to play. I used to be a more methodical player but have improved my speed over the years. If you're playing storm it is not fun for your opponent to sit for 10-15 minutes watching you talk to yourself as you combo. The fact that this game had minimal interaction gave me the harsh reminder of why I'm falling out of love with Magic. I'm not salty over losing. I cannot stand my time literally being wasted by someone who demonstrates not really understanding their deck, humblebragging about how much time they practice, and luck-sacking their way into a turn 2 win.

R4. James / Lands. Win.
*James is another friend I've known for a while. Really great to catch up with him. I figured this was an auto-loss but I win both games by a considerable margin. Game 1 he goes land, Mox D, gamble, drops Manabond, dumps the remainder of his hand on the table. Shit. I actually manage to assemble something while James prays to the topdeck gods. The game becomes a race to deal damage with anything before he can assemble the token. By the time he does, I have PTE waiting. I end the game by swinging out, dropping him to 2 and then Zenithing for Rhino for lethal. Game 2 I luckily have a ton of basics or fetches in hand. Triple Vet beatdown for a while. DRS/Scooze eat some key cards before dying to the enchantment that reads "discard a land: shock". Tracker and Vets close out the game. A critical junction was me sandbagging PTE for his marit token blocker. During the round I called the judge on James. I still feel bad for doing so but I did not want him to shortcut "I DD-Stage combo for a 20/20". I wanted to verify the steps were being taken correctly.

R5. Mike / Czech Pile
*That feeling where he's always ahead when he's on the play. Game 1 he's on the play and essentially I lose by being a turn behind (his cabals before mine, his delvers before I have removal, etc). Game 2 I completely blow him out. I had 5 mana to his 2 early. He didn't fully understand Nic Fit, which also helped. Game 3 my hand is respectable. I'm on the play and blind-Cabal Therapy brainstorm (debated about ponder). He has the ponder, no Bstorm. Strong hand. I draw complete garbage for several turns -- hitting 3 lands and 4 therapies within the first few turns. I cannot find additional lands as he plays full greed and is rewarded every time. My therapies do minimal as he's got 2 flipped delvers. This one felt bad.

R6. ??? / Demon-Emrakul Sneak-Show
*Top 8 impossible at this point. I lose both games rather quickly. I played things technically correct. Second game I had to mull to 4. The luck ran out.

***
Reflection and Discussion. I have some fundamental disagreements with Kev, but that's great for a talk here or on the Discord.

1. The sum of Nic Fit never exceeds the value of its individual pieces. Let that sink in. We're playing a collection of solid, underrepresented cards. Unfortunately, you're never going to feel as smooth as delver or as intricate as Maverick or DnT.
2. Hexproof is very underrated
3. I debate cutting Sakura like a college girl debates dumping her dependable but not-so-sexy boyfriend. 4 Vet, 2 DRS, 1 Nissa is solid enough. STE may be overkill.
4. Run 1x Carnage Tyrant. He's the best finisher we can play.
5. Run 2x Sylvan Library. Kev was correct.
6. Run 3x Tracker. Overperformed all day. Wish I had 3.
7. Run 2x Nissa, Vital Force. Incredible.
8. Run 2x Choke, 1x Teeg in every real sideboard
9. I'm at a cross-roads with white.

While Rhino was good, and even won me some games, I could replace him. My gut tells me to move into red. Regis, Price of Progress, and some SB cards can really help me out. Unfortunately, I cannot replace what white offers in Path/Swords/Council's Judgment.

Revised Core
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Carnage Tyrant
4 FLEX (splash dependent)

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library
2 Nissa, Vital Force
4 FLEX (Path to Exile if white)

[Brael]

Unfortunately, I cannot replace what white offers in Path/Swords/Council's Judgment.

Although I've been experimenting with a few BUG builds lately, I consider a pure BG build to be my core build. I've never actually found a lack of white to be a problem. Black has all the removal tools you need in Toxic Deluge, Deed, Diabolic Edict, Abrupt Decay, and Maelstrom Pulse. Edict is in some ways even better than Swords, for example being an efficient answer to an Emrakul or TNN. Red adds some other options too. I actually think removal is the least of the reasons these days to be in white. Ranger of Eos, Stoneforge Mystic, Sigarda, and Rhino are all the main draws to the color.

[Kobra_D]

White also adds more sideboard tech in cards like containment priest, Gaddock Teeg, sanctum prelate, RiP.......

Although I do agree with Brael, a lot of the splash colors aren't needed for the simple grind factor.

[Brael]

White also adds more sideboard tech in cards like containment priest, Gaddock Teeg, sanctum prelate, RiP.......

Although I do agree with Brael, a lot of the splash colors aren't needed for the simple grind factor.

All good options, I guess my point was that you don't need white for removal, black already offers everything you need there. If you're in white, you're there for the creatures.

[Warden]

All good options, I guess my point was that you don't need white for removal, black already offers everything you need there. If you're in white, you're there for the creatures.

Every event I go to I see a ton of marit tokens. Edict isn't as strong as PTE in my experience because anything that's not lands.dec has fodder to toss instead of the asshole you want dead.

[Echelon]

@Warden Great post, loved reading it!

For Rhino lists, I've been on 4 Library-esque effects (1 Library, 3 Guile) and have been loving it. Dropping one of those early does smoothe out your draws as if you were piloting a blue deck.

[Brael]

Played 2 rounds with Flash in the Tournament Constructed rooms on MTGO now. Both were 2-0's, reanimator and pile. I'll likely take it through a league soon, I just need to get comfortable enough with the MTGO interface, the timer is a real issue for me.

I think I still prefer my usual GB builds, but this one has been rather interesting.

[Ralf]

@Warden. I think your R5 opponent was not on Czech cuz Czech does not play Delver nor Cabal. Rather a 4 color delver !

Thanks for the write-up !!!

Cheers,

Ralf

[fonzdizon]

Salutations everyone, I've been observing this forum for sometime now, and this Depths shell has peaked my interest since it's inception here a few months ago and was inspired by bobmans list to build one of my own. Seeing now that the Depths shell is picking up some steam I'd like to throw my list into the mix to try and stir the pot.

Maindeck 61

Lands 22
x3 Verdant Catacombs
x2 Windswept Heath
x2 Bayou
x1 Savannah
x1 Scrubland
x3 Forest
x2 Swamp
x1 Plains
x1 Dryad Arbor
x1 Thespian Stage
x1 Dark Depths
x1 Phyrexian Tower
x1 Bojuka Bog
x1 Karakas
x1 Wasteland

Creature Spells 17
x4 Veteran Explorer
x1 Deathrite Shaman
x1 Sylvan Safekeeper
x1 Gaddock Teeg
x1 Eternal Witness
x1 Ramunap Excavator
x2 Knight of the Reliquary
x2 Tireless Tracker
x1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
x1 Thragtusk
x1 Titania Protector of Argoth
x1 Primeval Titan

Non-creature spells 22
x4 Green Sun's zenith
x4 Cabal Therapy
x3 Crop Rotation
x3 Path to exile
x2 Sylvan Library
x2 Diabolic Intent
x3 Pernicious Deed
x1 Toxic Deluge

Sideboard (Catered to LGS meta)
x1 Engineered Explosives
x1 Cavern of souls
x1 Relic of Progenitus
x2 Thoughtsieze
x1 Surgical Extraction
x1 Circle of protection: Red
x1 Ethersworn Canonist
x2 Containment Priest
x1 Lost Legacy
x1 Pulse of Murasa
x1 Vindicate
x1 Toxic Deluge
x1 Nissa Vital Force

Titania + Safekeeper steals games

Trackers seem grind out games where you fail to combo off with Explorer

Teeg is the main as a desperate play to try and win game 1's against fast combo decks and new miracles

Meren, Excavator, Wasteland and Intent #2 feel like they can flexed out

Volraths Stronghold, Maze of Ith are under consideration

Yay or nay?

Hey guys, would just like to report an Updated list that I got 3-1 with in LGS tournament.

The list is essentially the same above but
-1 Path of exile
-1 Tireless Tracker
+1 Vindicate
+1 Scavenging Ooze

The SB is currently
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Thoughtseize
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Path to exile
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Circle of Protection: Red
2 Containment Priest
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Kambal Consul of Allocation
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pulse of Murasa
1 Lost Legacy

Lost to R/G lands in the first round and then came back to beat 4-color Leovold ,R/G lands, and Belcher

The single Wasteland paired with Excavator and Safekeeper dominated the 2nd match-up with R/G lands

The maindeck Teeg managed to steal a game one with Belcher

[Echelon]

Congrats on the result!

[Claymore]

Played a full day of Nyx Fit yesterday, started out with the following build:

Main (61):
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Phyrexian Tower

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Lingering Souls
4 Academy Rector

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Collective Brutality
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Pernicious Deed

2 Mirri's Guile
2 Sylvan Library
3 Evolutionary Leap

1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Dovescape
1 Cruel Reality
1 Overwhelming splendor

Sideboard:
1 Thoughtseize
2 Lost Legacy
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Sandwurm Convergence
2 Ground Seal



Took this modified list to a short 3 round event, ended 2-1 on some incredible luck.

Swapped 2 Brutalities for Thoughtseize to give earlier plays/control. Balanced the Guiles/Library for personal preference. Removed Duress from the board in place of Thoughtseize and 2 Ground Seals, reduced a pithing needle for Sandwurms.

Eldrazi Post: 0-2

Game 1, I was able to chain Explorers (and find subsequent GSZ's useless) but no pay off Rectors. I did manage to hard cast Splendor, but it was eaten by an Ugin two turns later. Kozilek's cast trigger still works through the Splendor effect.
Game 2, I was able to get Rector out, but I was constantly a turn behind between playing my answers and taking out countermeasures. I ended with a Rector and Deed out but short mana, which were both eliminated by Ulamog.

Lands: 2-0

Game 1, Lands tried to aggressively GQ out of the game. I managed to fire off a Rector just in time for a Cruel Reality. I probably should've lost this game to an early natural combo.
Game 2, Lands was setting up their plan and an early Ground Seal stalled their game. Mirri's Guile helped smooth the draws. Explorer stalled the ground against Tracker, and then subsequent Souls tokens did that as well. Ground Seal ate a Grip, but was followed up with another Seal. A Rector eventually fired off through Leap (which ate another Grip), but I was able to get another Rector out for Splendor, followed by Reality.

Lands: 2-0

Game 1, Lands managed to get an early Marit Lage. They had to burn all Rotations due to an incoming Cabal Therapy so ended up with less than optimal mana on board. I escalated a Brutality to go to 22 and discard a Punishing Fire. Took 20, then fired off Academy Rector to get Cruel Reality. Managed to chain Explorers and Rectors until I got Dovescape and Splendor on board.

Game 2, Lands had a ton of bad luck, but I was able to chain Explorers. An early Groundseal stalled the game. Popped a Rector to get Sandwurms to eat his Krosan Grip (in hindsight, made the mistake of taking out Dovescape), then hardcast Splendor to slow him down severely. Eventually popped another Rector to win with Reality, although I likely would've lost if opponent ever dredged Grove, since I was eating Library triggers.

Overall fun deck, but definitely needs a main board pay off card to GSZ for. I think Sigarda would be great, although you will lose Evolutionary Leap digs more often.

[Plm]

Hi guys,

I'm testing yet another variant of nic fit, helm fit feat brainstorm :smile:

CARD QUALITY 11

4 brainstorm
2 ponder
3 greensun's zenith
2 crop rotation

CARD ADVANTAGE 3

1 jace the mindsculptor
1 tireless tracker
1 fact or fiction

INTERACTION 11

4 cabal therapy
3 collective brutality
2 pernicious deed
1 abrupt decay
1 diabolic edict

CREATURES 9

4 veteran explorer
1 dryad arbor
1 leovold my man
1 eternal witness
1 trashing brontodon
1 thragtusk

COMBO 7

4 leyline of the void : original LOTV represents
3 helm of obediance

LANDS 20

6 basics 2 of each
3 duals 2 trop 1 bayou
1 phyrexian tower
1 volrath's stronghold
1 karakas
4 misty rain forest
4 verdant catacomb

13G 12U 11B

So the theory crafting goes like this :

The 6 cantrips help you to get away with the low land count and to switch from controlling to comboing while smoothing your draws (drawing redondant combo piece is less a problem with 4 brain storm , 3 brutality and jace)
You don't have to go for the combo ASAP but you can turn 2 some one with a tower start (and a god hand) instead you use your cantrip to draw into removal and discards and eventually win.
I tried to have the most versatile cards and have them cover as many bases as I could. That's why I choose helm leyline as my kill, because leyline can also be a game winning disruption piece.

I feel I should explain my most controversial choices, so here it is :

Not playing strix?

Strix is a cantripping removal that give the choice of the timing and the target to the opponment, and it's hard on the mana.
As there is few slots for interaction I want my removal to be A) very effective like deed or decay B) a swiss army knife.


So 3 collective brutality?

It does so much !
Worried about conterspell ? brutality !
A utility guy is peskering you ? brutality !
You are racing ? brutality !
You are playing against Burn? so much fun!

pitching dead cards (according to the match up : explorer, second leyline, removal) to escalate is such a tempo play.

playing 7 maindeck discard spell is nice, couple that with some actual counterspells from the sideboard and game 2 vs combo feels better.


Fact or fiction ?

To be honnest I think it is fiction.
It was the second jace but UU is tough, instant speed is nice, digging 5 is nice, let me playtest my nostalgia for a while will you?
I don't know what the 3rd CA slot should be. Search for impulsion is my best guess.


Trashing brontodon?

Worse than rec sage a blowing things, worse than qasali at going agro. But it is good at blocking and turns greensun into a 5 mana desenchant.
It is like brutality : not the best but polyvalent.


karakas instead of another fetch/dual?

Guess what I fear more show and tell than wasteland. Not being cold to some unfair stratégies game 1 is nice, with the crop rots and the edict we have 4 cards against big dumb monster, 8 if some graveyard shenanigans are involved.
That is some serious controlling :tongue:


So that's my curent ramblings, feel free to comment.
Have a nice week end.

[Captain Hammer]

I wanted to throw my list down for comparison...


4 Brainstorm
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Collective Brutality
1 Thoughtseize

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Elderscale Wurm
1 Progenitus

3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Island

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Dryad Arbor

It’s designed to win much easier than other lists utilizing Natural Order since it’s a one card combo.

Try the above list here, playing it will make you a believer: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/natural-fit/ (https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/natural-fitness-2/playtest/)

Any suggestions on improving this approach? Any cards I should cut or add?

Some other creatures already under consideration that I could be convinced to run if you can make an argument to cutting something to include them are...
Fauna Shaman - This used to be in the deck, where the 3rd Deathrite Shaman currently sits
Sylvan Safekeeper - Xantid Swarm and Leovold fill this role better
Ramunap Excavator - Would take the 3cc place of Tireless Tracker
Thrashing Brontodon - The hope is that Thoughtseize, Decay and Deed both recoupable by Witness and the combo win are enough
Sylvan Library - Brainstorm already fills this role
Scavenging Ooze - Deathrite, Thoughtseize, Leovold and Wurm help with graveyard combo matchups
Etc.

[Brael]

Any suggestions on improving this approach? Any cards I should cut or add?


Blue is doing nothing for you in that build. Splashing just for Brainstorm isn't worth it.

[Captain Hammer]

Blue is doing nothing for you in that build. Splashing just for Brainstorm isn't worth it.

Brainstorm and Leovold are both amazing cards and you can use Zenith or Fauna Shaman to get Leovold into play which is nuts. Plus Brainstorm (in addition to being fantastic with all the shuffle effects the deck already runs) gives the deck yet another way to shuffle away the one single dead draw in the whole deck, the Progenitus, Shaman serves this function as well.

[Echelon]

List & report.

Overall fun deck, but definitely needs a main board pay off card to GSZ for. I think Sigarda would be great, although you will lose Evolutionary Leap digs more often.

First of all, I'm flattered to see my base build being used by another pilot! Secondly, I wholeheartedly agree on your last comment. The deck often enough has the mana to power it out and it would help you get out of so many binds.

How did you like the Guile/Library package?


Blue is doing nothing for you in that build. Splashing just for Brainstorm isn't worth it.

Don't bother. Just let the guy play with his Natural Orders.

[Warden]

Blue is doing nothing for you in that build. Splashing just for Brainstorm isn't worth it.


Brainstorm and Leovold are both amazing cards and you can use Zenith or Fauna Shaman to get Leovold into play which is nuts. Plus Brainstorm (in addition to being fantastic with all the shuffle effects the deck already runs) gives the deck yet another way to shuffle away the one single dead draw in the whole deck, the Progenitus, Shaman serves this function as well.

I agree with Brael on this one. Brainstorm is really stretching the deck for no reason. Either go deep into blue for cantrips and synergy or stay out of it. 1 trop could probably be reliable enough to muscle out the single leovold (4 zenith, 3 drs, 1 trop, x fetches to find some way to produce U is feasible). It may even make more sense to just play NO-BUG, as the Nic Fit plan gets in the way of a more effective shell.

1 arbor (in lands section)
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Xantid Swarm ---> +1 slot
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest -----> remove if not in blue (+1 slot?)
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth --------> +1 slot
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth ----> +1 slot
1 Elderscale Wurm ---------------> +1 slot (sideboard?)
1 Progenitus

The biggest selling point on Natural Order is that you can say "oops I win with a boom boom". Progenitus is the poster child and arguably the best thing we could run. I still believe Carnage Tyrant fits into the deck because muscling him out early or straight up casting him is crushing. Tyrant entering play turn 2 or 3 will likely steamroll fair decks. His trample makes all the difference in racing while hexproof means there are only a handful of cards that interact with him outside of CJ or some sort of edict effect. Other nice threats to consider are Ruric Thar (anti-combo/spells), Simic Sky Swallower (flying, shroud, trample), and Terastodon (potential 18 damage to race with/anti-permanents). I think the 15/15 wurm is better suited for sneak attack decks.

Low cc guys should be Vet, DRS, and Fauna. There are pros and cons to Fauna Shaman's inclusion in general. She is the only way you can recycle a progenitus sans blue. I don't believe in Xantid. I'm not sold so much on the above choice in 4 or 5 drops. Personally, I'd prefer to go into threats that generate green tokens. This gives me a sac target to NO and/or prevents edicts from being game-over. Master of the Wild Hunt, Huntmaster, Thragtusk, Regis, and the 4G spider thing come to mind. The bonus is that they double as decent threats under the natural Nic Fit plan. Meren is card #61 for me here.

For spells, I want protection for NO with discard and typical Nic Fit removal. This would be my foundation. Maybe remove a thoughtseize in favor of a 3rd decay.

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Sylvan Library
2 Decay
2 Deed

[Bobmans]

At NO BUG, what does proggie along with 3 NO provide that is better then just one Carnage Tyrant?

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[Claymore]

First of all, I'm flattered to see my base build being used by another pilot! Secondly, I wholeheartedly agree on your last comment. The deck often enough has the mana to power it out and it would help you get out of so many binds.

How did you like the Guile/Library package?

Package was okay. I liked Guile being able to come out early, and redundant copies of Library/Guile played well with Deeds. I liked getting the Libraries late game so I could have the mana to burn extra cards.

I think a green creature to act as a mana sink late game would be good, but still needs to be okay off of both GSZ and Leap, and still be playable early game.

Scavenging Ooze may fit the bill. It isn't quite the finisher that Sigarda is, but if you draw off of a Leap then it's not terrible. It still works with GSZ as opposed to a X creature (like a Hydra).

[Warden]

At NO BUG, what does proggie along with 3 NO provide that is better then just one Carnage Tyrant?

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If this was toward my recent post above, I was referring to a dedicated NO-BUG deck (8 dork, blue shell of counters/cantrips) possibly being better suited than cramming NO into a BUG-flavored Nic Fit list.

[Brael]

Played a league with Flash on MTGO. I went 3-2 in rounds and 8-3 in games. One round loss was due to the timer. I started another league and I'm currently 1-3 in it in rounds and 4-2 in games, one legit loss and 2 due to the timer after 1-0. It's hard to say if the deck is good or not, of the 5 rounds I've lost so far 3 have been to the timer in matchups where either player could win (but I was feeling confident going into them), 1 was to just getting got by mono red sneak, and the other was to storm t2'ing me in both games. My 4 wins have been against burn, storm, maverick, and grixis control. My timer losses were to DnT, maverick, and something I don't remember.

Between leagues I made some pretty substantial changes to the list. I don't have a list of all the in's and out's but hopefully I remember them all. Here's the current build:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/bug-flash-fit/

Sorry for the bad formatting, I'm just copy/pasting off my above list.
Land (21)

2x Bayou
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Dryad Arbor
3x Forest
2x Island
1x Karakas
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Swamp
1x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Volrath's Stronghold

Enchantment (2)

2x Search for Azcanta

Artifact (1)

1x Umezawa's Jitte

Creature (18)

4x Dark Confidant
2x Deathrite Shaman
1x Horizon Chimera
1x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1x Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1x Pack Guardian
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Snapcaster Mage
2x Tireless Tracker
4x Veteran Explorer

Instant (10)

2x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
2x Crop Rotation
2x Diabolic Edict

Sorcery (8)

4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith

Sideboard (15)

1x Carpet of Flowers
2x Deathrite Shaman
1x Duress
3x Lost Legacy
1x Notion Thief
1x Pulse of Murasa
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Sylvan Library
1x Toxic Deluge

So the biggest change: Bob is back. The substitutes didn't work. The Bob breakthrough was what allowed for SE to actually function, and the blue options simply aren't good enough. Jace VP does nothing due to Karakas, Baleful Strix isn't enough advantage. Search for Azcanta is still nice though. So with the return of the king, the CMC needs cleaned up a bit. No more Cloudthresher, no more EDF. These guys weren't pulling their weight anyways. This means the list tops out at 4. Both of my 4's are flash. Pack Guardian, which has been doing well at killing Jace's and eating Thalia's and Horizon Chimera which gives us another body in the air, with some upside. Believe it or not, it's good. Leovold made it in too, because he doesn't lose to Karakas.

As for the sieboard, I cut back slightly on my alternative mana plan, The DRS and carpet are still there, but it means only 2 vets come out against burn. Most of the SB is more flash focused but Reclamation Sage and Toxic Deluge will force a tap out.

I'm having good initial success so far with Bob back in aided by Azcanta's to keep your hand flush with cards.

[Brael]

Been playing Flash a bit more, still having lots of trouble with the MTGO timer, but game to game I'm doing great. One thing I've noticed though is that a second Swamp would be welcome in the manabase, which makes me want to cut a Forest. That means Nissa needs to come out for either an Eternal Witness or a second Snapcaster. I haven't decided on which I would prefer yet.

[Echelon]

It's usually good to be speedy. I'm not sure you have enough targets for a second Snapcaster though.

[Brael]

It's usually good to be speedy. I'm not sure you have enough targets for a second Snapcaster though.

It's not the deck speed that has been my issue, I'm able to play games (especially in paper) at a reasonable pace. It's the damn MTGO timer, it's especially bad with a draw/go style like Flash because I can't simply auto pass priority as much. I'm getting better, and I think the deck is reasonable though not the most competitive build.

I've found that I used to only rarely use the GSZ into Eternal Witness line, but I'm really missing it now. That says to me that I either need more removal, or this build just needs that line. Maybe another instant in that slot would be ok. I've been eyeing To the Slaughter.

[hamie96]

Has anyone been brewing a Pod and/or Rhino list recently? I've been looking to get back into Nic Fit, but I'm not sure what an updated list would even run besides maybe a few Tireless Trackers.

[kombatkiwi]

Has anyone been brewing a Pod and/or Rhino list recently? I've been looking to get back into Nic Fit, but I'm not sure what an updated list would even run besides maybe a few Tireless Trackers.
I want to test a BUG pod list that curves into Scarab God
That card as a midrange 5 drop is just miles beyond anything else that's ever been printed and UB is already good with pod because it lets you play Baleful Strix
You can do stuff like:
Pod, sac Strix, find blue exarch, untap pod, pod sac blue exarch, find black exarch, Duress
Next turn pod into scarab god, then you can pay 4 in their draw step to revive the black exarch and Duress them again
Then you have infinite 4/4s based on whatever you podded up the Chain, the tokens keep their CMC so you can still pod into whatever you want, and even if you really want to sac the God to find a 6 it comes back to your hand anyway.
The return ability also lets you protect it from Swords with Phyrexian Tower.

[p.faul01]

...
Next turn pod into scarab god, then you can pay 4 in their draw step to revive the black exarch and Duress them again
Then you have infinite 4/4s based on whatever you podded up the Chain, the tokens keep their CMC so you can still pod into whatever you want, and even if you really want to sac the God to find a 6 it comes back to your hand anyway.
The return ability also lets you protect it from Swords with Phyrexian Tower.

Please add liliana last hope for maximum fun ;)

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[Echelon]

Has anyone been brewing a Pod and/or Rhino list recently? I've been looking to get back into Nic Fit, but I'm not sure what an updated list would even run besides maybe a few Tireless Trackers.

Pod hasn't been viable for a long time and Junk has been up for debate for some time now as well. If I were to pilot Junk Fit right now, I'd still use the following list:

Main (60):
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Tireless Tracker
4 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Path to Exile
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library

Sideboard:
3 Duress
3 Lost Legacy
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pithing Needle
2 Golgari Charm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg

[Kriggy]

Hey guys, can you suggest begginer BG nic fit? Im want to build this deck but my budget is limited at the moment to about 150 dollars so BG seems like the only option. I was looking for some decklists but it seems that none is playing BG now :/
thank you

edit: by begginer deck I mean as a place to start and to be improved later

[Navsi]

Hey guys, can you suggest begginer BG nic fit? Im want to build this deck but my budget is limited at the moment to about 150 dollars so BG seems like the only option. I was looking for some decklists but it seems that none is playing BG now :/
thank you

edit: by begginer deck I mean as a place to start and to be improved later

BG isn't any cheaper than the other versions really. The biggest expense you need to start playing the deck is 8 fetchlands, and it doesn't really matter which ones they are as long as they are green or black - Verdant Catacombs is the preferred choice, though. You need 2 more shocklands to get started maybe but that's like $16. Most of the other cards you want are in the $5-10 range with a few exceptions (planeswalkers, collective brutality, kolaghan's commands, some sideboard choices like Thoughtseize) and dual lands.

[Echelon]

Yup. If you want to get into Legacy on a budget, Manaless Dredge might be your best bet. Manabases are very, very spendy.

[Brael]

Hey guys, can you suggest begginer BG nic fit? Im want to build this deck but my budget is limited at the moment to about 150 dollars so BG seems like the only option. I was looking for some decklists but it seems that none is playing BG now :/
thank you

edit: by begginer deck I mean as a place to start and to be improved later

Nic Fit does have some budget options, but in paper you cannot play the deck on a budget of $150. At the very minimum you need 8 green fetches and 1 Bayou which combined will run you into the low to mid 300's. Then there's the cards you actually want to play. My BUG flash deck is among the cheapest "competitive" variants I've seen in a while and it still runs a solid $1200 in paper.

Also, Nic Fit is not a good beginner deck to the format. It has powerful lines but so much relies on proper Cabal Therapy names that you'll blow a lot of rounds due to playing the card improperly.

[Echelon]

Also, after your manabase you'll need a set of Therapies, a bunch of Fatal Push. It gets pretty expensive pretty quickly. Legacy is such an efficient format, you simply can't afford to run sub-par cards.

[Kriggy]

Also, after your manabase you'll need a set of Therapies, a bunch of Fatal Push. It gets pretty expensive pretty quickly. Legacy is such an efficient format, you simply can't afford to run sub-par cards.

Well therapy is like 3-4$ so its fine. My budget is actulay more like 230-250 for now. I didnt get the exchange rate right. Im fine with playing mostly basic manabase for starters, i can improve it over time.

[Echelon]

Well therapy is like 3-4$ so its fine. My budget is actulay more like 230-250 for now. I didnt get the exchange rate right. Im fine with playing mostly basic manabase for starters, i can improve it over time.

My bad about the Therapies. I'm used to seeing the prices for those I run. FNM CTs, they're a bit more spendy :laugh:.

The manabase is the most important part of the deck, by the way. Fetchlands (and specifically Catacombs) first, duals later. You'll want to aim at having 14 initial manasources for each colour you run, meaning you should have 14 cards that can get you green mana on T1 and 14 cards that can get you black mana on T1. Fetchlands should count to 1 for each colour.

As an example, currently I run this manabase for my Junk Fit list:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

This puts me @14 for each colour.

[Matsu]

My bad about the Therapies. I'm used to seeing the prices for those I run. FNM CTs, they're a bit more spendy :laugh:.

The manabase is the most important part of the deck, by the way. Fetchlands (and specifically Catacombs) first, duals later. You'll want to aim at having 14 initial manasources for each colour you run, meaning you should have 14 cards that can get you green mana on T1 and 14 cards that can get you black mana on T1. Fetchlands should count to 1 for each colour.

As an example, currently I run this manabase for my Junk Fit list:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

This puts me @14 for each colour.

I will add my two cents. If you want to play legacy, I assume you played modern before. So I will suggest for a junk list to start with this:

8 green fetchlands
2 overgrown tomb
2 temple garden
2 godless shrine

Then I will invest in Duals, the cheapest will be Scrubland, Savannah when the expensive is Bayou. If you want to go only BG you need 4 Bayou.
When you have the duals buy the fetchlands (Catacombs), they will reprint them from time to time so the price will slowly drop.
When you have more experience with the format and the deck I will buy utility lands in this order.
Phyrexian Tower – first
Karakas – if you are in Junk
Volrath’s stronghold – if you want to grind
Grove of the Burnwillow – if you want to go jund color with taiga and badlands
Man land – if you need some spice, including Dryad arbor and Dark Depth. (I personally play one treetop village in the main, nickname jace killer)

[Valkyrie]

Hi Folks,

I have completely changed my nic fit and exchanged a total of 27 cards.
Somehow the 4c ​​variant was just too inconsistent for me, so I threw out blue and white completely.
The version I am currently testing is the Punishing Fire / Grove - Engine, combined with the R/G - Dinosaurs. Jurassic Fit
In my opinion, the pile plays very constantly and the dinosaurs offer enough value to make the opponent sweat. :cool:

I really like the possibility of tutoring a board wiping option against elves and tokens with Raging Swordtooth.
6 dinosaurs in total should be able to justify a cavern of souls.
Chandra over Nissa is not fixed yet. But what I miss a bit is the tireless tracker.

With blood moon and trinisphere in the sideboard I have had very good experiences, but I just have to play and test a lot more.

All in all, it's great fun to play the deck. Any feeling or suggestions are pretty welcome. :smile:



Stuff (16)
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Punishing Fire

Creatures (16)
1 Carnage Tyrant
1 Chameleon Colossus
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Raging Swordtooth
1 Regisaur Alpha
1 Ripjaw Raptor
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrashing Brontodon
1 Tireless Tracker
4 Veteran Explorer

Lands (23)
1 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills

Enchantments & PW (6)
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Sylvan Library

Sideboard
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Trinisphere

Greetings

Mike

[Matsu]

Hi Folks,

...

All in all, it's great fun to play the deck. Any feeling or suggestions are pretty welcome. :smile:

...

Greetings

Mike
Jurassic Park:tongue: I like it.
These are the changes I will probably make without testing and with no meta call:
Abrupt Decay -> punishing fire
Abrupt Decay -> Collective brutality
2x Kolagan’s command -> 2x Collective brutality
Raging Swordtooth -> Strombreath Dragon
Deathrite Shaman -> pernicious deed
Huntmaster of the Fells -> Tragtusk
Cavern of Souls -> green Fetch
Chandra -> Nissa, vital force
Chandra -> Angrath flame chained

Side:
3x blood moon
1x slaughter games
Probably something to easily kill Gurmag angler

edit:
I will consider also those dinosaurs
Deathgorge Scavenger, Ranging Raptors, Regal Behemoth

[hamie96]

This is the Junk List I'm putting back together, any thoughts?

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Island
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor

1 Carnage Tyrant
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Devoted Druid
1 Eternal Witness
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer

2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Swords to Plowshares

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Nissa, Vital Force

SB:
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Path to Exile
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Etherworn Canonist
2 Dread of Night
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize

The meta (according to my friends) is Grixis Delver(5 different players), 4C Leovold, RB Reanimator, Death & Taxes, Mono Red Prison, BUG Delver, Lands, and Burn.

[Warden]

If the meta your friend told you is correct, I would be overly cautious and run more basics. You’re very vulnerable to wasteland and blood moon. Cut 2 fetchlands and add 2 basics. Devoted Druid should straight up switch for Sakura, who is further mana ramp and protection.

Add Sylvan Library. Never looks sexy but the card is bananas.

I’m not the best on the color-math, but also be careful of your casting cost requirements. WW is hard to hit (Sun Titan and Sigarda). You’re making this even more challenging with Leovold and Siege Rhino. @Brael and others may offer a more optimal solution.

[Echelon]

This is the Junk List I'm putting back together, any thoughts?

...List...

SB:
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Path to Exile
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Etherworn Canonist
2 Dread of Night
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize

The meta (according to my friends) is Grixis Delver(5 different players), 4C Leovold, RB Reanimator, Death & Taxes, Mono Red Prison, BUG Delver, Lands, and Burn.

Well, cut the Devoted Druid for another Deathrite for starters, and your StPs should probably be PtEs. And your list is too top heavy w/ the 2 6-drops and 3 5-drops. Try to cut down to 0-1 6-drops and 1-2 5-drops, max. With such a top heavy list you'll end up almost getting there a lot. Especially against Grixis Delver - you need to play really tight vs. that deck (at least when they're running Stifles).

Your SB puzzles me most. Why the PtE, and why Dread of Night? You shouldn't have need for more PtEs, and Dread of Night should probably be something more versatile like Golgari Charm.


If the meta your friend told you is correct, I would be overly cautious and run more basics. You’re very vulnerable to wasteland and blood moon. Cut 2 fetchlands and add 2 basics. Devoted Druid should straight up switch for Sakura, who is further mana ramp and protection.

Add Sylvan Library. Never looks sexy but the card is bananas.

I’m not the best on the color-math, but also be careful of your casting cost requirements. WW is hard to hit (Sun Titan and Sigarda). You’re making this even more challenging with Leovold and Siege Rhino. @Brael and others may offer a more optimal solution.

Yup, for starters do not cut fetchlands as that kills your manabase. Let's assume Leovold and Sun Titan don't make the final cut but you still want to play a 6-drop, I'd go with something like this:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold/Karakas

Which puts you @14 initial manasources for each colour.

Or, if you plan to add Sylvan Libraries/Mirri's Guiles:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold/Karakas

Which puts you @15/14/14 w/ some more free shuffle effects. Mirri's Guile and Sylvan Library are very, very powerful in Nic Fit. They allow you to match the card selection of blue decks, which also lets you get away with demanding manacosts (GG & WW, BGW is usually easier to come by).

If you drop all 6-drops and run some Library/Guile effects, you can slim the manabase down to 21 cards. If you do so, go for the latter manabase and just cut the 3rd Forest.

[hamie96]

Is it possible to get away with playing GB Nic Fit with only 2 Bayous and 1 Overgrown Tomb? I want to try this list (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18383&d=314131&f=LE), but I don't think I can justify dropping $400 on two more bayous.

[Echelon]

Absolutely. You'll want to fetch basics 90% of the time anyway.

I'd add an extra Windswept Heath though, your manabase is rather small.

[kombatkiwi]

Is it possible to get away with playing GB Nic Fit with only 2 Bayous and 1 Overgrown Tomb? I want to try this list (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18383&d=314131&f=LE), but I don't think I can justify dropping $400 on two more bayous.

Replacing abur duals with shocklands simply means that occassionally you will randomly take 2 damage and occassionally this will happen in a matchup or scenario that causes you to lose the game.
When you ask a question like 'is it possible to get away with this' of course replacing 1 dual with 1 shock will not even matter in the majority of your matches, it's not like you're saying "I want to play RG Lands but I don't own any copies of Life from the Loam, can I get away with this"

I played RUG Delver for quite a while with 2 Tropical Island and 1 Breeding Pool and I think it affected the outcome of a match maybe 2 or 3 times.

You just need to decide how frustrated/upset you will be by this occasional setback. If you don't care much then go ahead play Overgrown Tomb, but if you're going to have a tanty and rage about how legacy is pay2win or whatever then maybe wait until you can afford the best cards.

[hamie96]

Replacing abur duals with shocklands simply means that occassionally you will randomly take 2 damage and occassionally this will happen in a matchup or scenario that causes you to lose the game.

You just need to decide how frustrated/upset you will be by this occasional setback. If you don't care much then go ahead play Overgrown Tomb, but if you're going to have a tanty and rage about how legacy is pay2win or whatever then maybe wait until you can afford the best cards.

I played Rhino Fit for about 6 months with a Bayou replaced for a Tomb. I just wasn't sure how important having 3-4 Bayous is to BG Fit. Likewise, is there anything you would recommend cutting in the list?

[Brael]

Is it possible to get away with playing GB Nic Fit with only 2 Bayous and 1 Overgrown Tomb? I want to try this list (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18383&d=314131&f=LE), but I don't think I can justify dropping $400 on two more bayous.

Yes. 1 Bayou is necessary, 2 helps a lot. If you're on a budget though I think there's a lot of cards you should pick up before the third Bayou. Actually, if you have a Twilight Mire I would play that over Bayou #4 here (and I would do that regardless of price). They're kinda pricey though so don't go out and get one just as a budget substitute if you want the exact list.

[Echelon]

Meh, I've been running a single Bayou for several years now (while I do own multiple) and it's worked out fine. I do play 10 fetch though.

[Brael]

I like 2 Bayou in 3 color decks, and 3 in 2 color decks. You definitely need 1 Bayou for fetch purposes, but after that they're not as important.

[Warden]

I like 2 Bayou in 3 color decks, and 3 in 2 color decks. You definitely need 1 Bayou for fetch purposes, but after that they're not as important.

Agreed with this. Two also gives you insurance against wasteland. Overgrown Tomb isn’t terrible to play with for budget reasons, but there really needs to be at least 1 Bayou if possible.

[Kriggy]

Hey, guys just build the deck (or like something that resembles the deck :D ) yesterday and played in tournament today. I have no experience with legacy, no idea about the metagame (except one player having DnT), deck with some placeholders and budget replacements. And yeah, I havent played 60 card mtg for more than 6 years :D

The deck:

24 nonland

1 skeletal scrying
2 garruk relentless
1 nissa vital force
1 ob nixilis reignited
3 deed
1 sylvan library
3 abrupt decay
1 hymn
4 GSZ
4 cabal therapy
3 fatal push

15 creatures

4 veteran explorer
1 birds of paradise (should be DRS)
1 sakura tribe elder
1 scooze
1 eternal witness
3 tireless tracker
1 thrun
1 thragtusk
1 titania
1 grave titan

21 lands
4 bg fetch
4 wg fetch
1 phyrexian tower
1 painland
1 shockland
2 fastland
4 forest
4 swamp

SIDEBOARD
3 massacre
1 toxic deluge
1 abrupt decay
1 fatal push
1 thragtusk
2 hymn
1 duress
1 thoughtseize
1 BG liege
1 hornet queen
2 golgari charm

12 players, meta:
1 nic fit (me), 1 dnt, 1 vial goblins, 2 miracles, 2 show and tell/sneak attack, 1 BG dark depths, 1 griselbrand reanimator-storm (quite insteresting deck), 1 colorless cloudpost stax, 1 bant and I dont remember the 2 more decks.

round 1: sneak
g1: cant handle T2 grisel
g2: dismanting his hand with T1 veteran into T2 duress-double therapy-hymn
g3: cant handle T3 emrakul

r2: dark depths
g1: T2 marit lage
g2: discarding hexmage into beatings with thragtusks
g3: T2 marit lage

r3: sneak
g1: T2 show and tell into emrakul and grave titan. Atacked with titan and he chumped,
g2: kept bad hand with no interaction
g3: T3 show into omniscience, grisel draw milion into sneak with emmy

r4: reanimator-strom: BR based strom that wants to get grisel into grave, reanimate him, draw cards and kill with burning wish into tendrills
g1: thought he is a reanimator so I therapied entomb, while he had 2 LEDs, petal and some gas, lost on his t2
g2: pretty much same as G1 but I didnt have therapy but durress

r5: miracles
g1: mull to 5 on play, still draget the game long but lost to JTMS ult in the end (at least i therapied 2 forces on turn 1)
g2: he was mana screwed but still was able to stabilize at 8 life while I drew 5 lands in a row.
____
Well anyway, hope you dont mind I included the short report into my post. Im looking for some ideashow to improve the maindeck and sideboard for my meta. I suppose Im gonna cut fatal pushes from maindeck and add the 4th decay. Possibly cutting ob nix and one garruk as well. Possibly maindecking the hymns. How would you build SB in meta like this? Pithing needle, lost legacy? I felt like I played too much creature removal than required.. I understand that nic fit is not great in meta full of combo but well... not much I can do about it now

ps: while I lost all the matches, it was quite fun. Well not the games I lost T2 but still, i quite enjoyed the deck and format as whole
thanks

[Brael]

Hey, guys just build the deck (or like something that resembles the deck :D ) yesterday and played in tournament today. I have no experience with legacy, no idea about the metagame (except one player having DnT), deck with some placeholders and budget replacements. And yeah, I havent played 60 card mtg for more than 6 years :D

Doing well with Nic Fit consistently takes a lot of practice. Case in point, with a good build Miracles should be around 50/50, and you should be strongly favored against S&S and Reanimator. Lands is harder, but also totally winnable.

There's essentially two rules to deck building in Legacy. Either you need to interact with your opponent (this means a mix of discard, removal, and counterspells) or you need a fast and consistent plan that ignores interaction. Nic Fit falls into the first category. The problem here is in the interaction you've chosen to run, so many of your cards are just dead against the decks you most need them in.

So in your removal, you really need removal that can deal with bigger threats. That means Diabolic Edict and Toxic Deluge. You'll get mixed opinions on the next one but I'm also a fan of Crop Rotation. You're running too many Fatal Push and Abrupt Decay, you've got no way to deal with big threats like Gurmag Angler. On top of that Hymn is putting a real strain on your manabase with 8 basics, a Forest opening (which is your strongest opening) leaves you unable to cast Hymn on time, and additionally you need 19 black sources to cast hymn but your manabase currently only has 16.

In your manabase you're not only running too few lands, but you've got too many basics and too few fetchable lands. Fastlands have little to no value in Nic Fit and neither do painlands. I would suggest:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou (1 is necessary, you can substitute with Overgrown Tomb if budget is an issue)
5 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor

If you take me up on the Crop Rotation suggestion you can subtract a Bayou/Tomb and a Forest for a Karakas and a Bojuka Bog.

I would suggest a different spell selection. Garruk Relentless is really poorly positioned right now, and Ob Nixilis isn't great either. These are expensive cards that don't win the game, focus on real threats.

In your sideboard, you're going too deep on some matchups and not deep enough on the others. What is Liege and Hornet Queen supposed to be there for? Use Collective Brutality (better yet, put some of these MB). Massacre is good in just one match, you don't need 3 of them unless you expect a lot of D&T. Your manabase can't cast hymn so you never want to bring it in. And so on. Also, you need a lot of card advantage.

I've been playing BG for about 15 months now, this is what my list currently looks like, you may want to use it for reference:
https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/rock-fit-2/

[Warden]

I have a wall of text. Personal stuff up top. Decklist and conclusions below.

****** Personal
I'm putting it out there: this past weekend signified the end of competitive paper Magic for me. I've been considering cashing out over the past 8 months due to a variety of reasons. For those who don't know, I rarely play magic. Where people usually have a ballpark of "playing X times per week", I can count on my hands the number of times I play magic throughout a calendar year. My "local" game store is Mythic Games, located 60-90 minutes away (one way). Add in the situation with rising card prices and not wanting to drive hours upon hours to events and you're left with the writing on the wall.

The nail in the coffin for me was when Dan (owner) of Mythic publicly announced at the start of the event that he is walking away from Magic the Gathering. Mythic will hold a March monthly and April monthly for legacy before transitioning between owners. Dan has run nothing short of an incredible store for Legacy. He really minimized the douchebaggery and kept folks like me interested in the game over the past few years. Great vibes, great memories. I'm not looking to curtail their business after Dan's departure -- as Mythic will live on! Brett (new owner) said he will not retain the inventory of Duals and other high-end items. So prize support redeeming a vast inventory of legacy staples will likely change. However, Brett actively wants to talk with players about continuing legacy monthly events. If you're in the CNY meta and would still like Mythic to host monthly legacy events, just reach out to him with ideas for prize support.

Overall, I wanna say thanks to the community. This is what separates Magic esports stuff. I've been incredibly lucky throughout my years playing Magic. I've had the pleasure of meeting so many caring individuals and unique players from vastly different walks of life. GP:NJ will still be one of the coolest experiences: I faced one of the best legacy players of Europe during a qualifier event + played an opponent from China. Fucking awesome a card game tied strangers together like that. I appreciate the connections and friendships made both online and IRL. My uber-talented artist friend Matt Buck taught me the game back in 5th grade (shameless plug he was just on Ink Masters). Chris, thanks for the awesome college parties -- you're one of the funniest guys out there. From kitchen tables to game stores, Josh you've been such a tremendous friend and magic companion. Those in the CNY meta, thanks for being brutally hard to play against lol. Learned a ton of magic and life skills thanks to you all. Some players offered me ideas like borrowing decks if I ever wanted to do another paper tournament. Those are unbelievably nice gestures. Seriously, my paper game is done. I'm getting married in May to an incredible woman. She's supported me playing magic and enjoying the game for what it is...a game. Can't complain about all the fun times I've had with folks. Wish all of you the best! Maybe I build a deck on MTGO or just bullshit cube-drafting using Cockatrice. No need for me to rush into a decision.

****** Report
I didn't like the prospects of playing Maverick at Mythic. It's borderline impossible for that deck to function in the room. Nic Fit would be my last hurrah. I acquired many pieces to go with Jund last minute. Overall I went 3-3-0, so nothing sexy to brag about. However, I had two opportunities to possibly break into the top 8. Just couldn't execute. Dishonor on my family, I know.

Jund Nic Fit
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Regisaur Alpha
1 Thragtusk
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Primeval Titan
1 Carnage Tyrant

2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Collective Brutality
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Sylvan Library

1 Garruk Relentless
2 Nissa, Vital Force

1 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Swamp
2 Taiga
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard
2 Magus of the Moon
1 From the Ashes
3 Price of Progress
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Lost Legacy
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Gaddock Teeg

***
I couldn't find any other K-commands, so I rolled with only 1. No wish, no scape, just value midrange plays.

R1 - Win - Eldrazi
I stole 2 out of 3. Game 1 I get pummel into oblivion by mimic and the 5/5 haste trampler. However, I stabilize VERY low with Carnage Tyrant (c'mon he's a fucking dinosaur) and something else. I effectively clog the board while Scooze gets me back to ~10 life. Next thing you know, I'm playing value stuff and generating momentum while he topdecks lands. Game 2 he's crushing me. Like...I can't get anything going vs his 2/2 mimic, 3/2 reshaper, and 5/5 trampler. I decay the mimic and drop durdles to postpone the inevitable. A PoP brought my opponent down to ~12 and me extremely low. I do the math and drop a veteran while i sit at 8. My plan was to take 5 in the head while preventing all 3 from the reshaper -- pray for a topdeck to find a way out with some larger threat or two midsize beaters the next turn hopefully. On my opponent's turn, he drops the 4th nonbasic land and pays 4 life to dismember veteran --> trigger --> I find a mountain and swamp (1 nonbasic on my end). I have enough to cast a second PoP before my opponent declares attackers. Holy shit I stole the match win. Opponent wasn't even mad.

R2 - Lose - Reanimator
He flashes me cards like Azcanta and Exhume while shuffling. Game 1 I keep a hand with Scooze and DRS. He doesn't combo off fast and I have active answers before he can cheat anything out. He's semi-budget, so I felt I had a shot as we sideboard. Game 2 he gets double chancellor of the annex on turn 0. Game 3 only 1 chancellor of the annex, but I am effectively a turn behind him and too slow to interact at all. I don't mind losing, but game 2 and 3 took approximately 5 minutes combined.

R3 - Win - Grixis Delver
Very nice guy. We trade games 1 and 2. Game 3 we go to extra time (thanks to a judge-call) and turns. Half the room watches us finish. I had a ridiculous board that outclassed his single DRS, Angler, and Pyro w/ tokens. I had Nissa VF ultimate (Nissa still alive) + Titania + Carnage + a few 5/3 elemental tokens. I think Angler + tokens take out my Carnage (decent trade to remove what little he had to defend with) while my elemental tokens beat down. Titania sits back with a veteran explorer. At some point, he diabolic edicts on my main phase. I sac an animated land (courtesy of Nissa VF) to create a new 5/3 (courtesy of Titania). Veteran dies, which gave me additional card draw and weapons. I did the math right and get him to concede on turn 4 of "extra turns". Handshake concluded a well-fought match. Carnage Tyrant makes Grixis shit bricks.

R4 - Win - DnT
Cabal therapy shreds his hand game 1. Game 2 he actually gets the better of me. Game 3 there's solid trading all around, but I really put the pedal to the metal. At the very end he's actually got a threatening board but 2 active deathrites kill him directly before he can deal lethal to me. I had to call judge a few times here on my opponent game-rule violating his own cards. After years of playing with Thalia 1.0, you learn to work around her. He was still learning the deck (very fair situation). I gave some pointers. I got lucky with topdecks in both wins. K-command was sinister. Toxic does its thing. Thoughtseize out the board demolishes this deck OMFG. Never saw deed all 3 games but still got there.

R5 - Loss - Turbo Depths
I'm 3-1-0. Two to go. I'm sitting between delver v 4c stoneforge and some other 3 and 4 color monstrosities. I get paired with the worst matchup. Jund is weak to this matchup and I don't spend considerable time prepping for it in the SB. I faced the one player in the room with it and died. Guess that's how the cookie crumbles sometimes. Very pleasant guy, so I can't hate on the player. But turn 4 kill + turn 3 kill are painful to sit through. Game 2, I found Magus of the Moon off Sylvan Library and slammed him down. In response, opponent had crop rotation waiting.

R6 - Loss - Grixis Delver
My friend Jake (amazing guy and player). Deck imploded. Forest, Vet, Bayou all I could play game 1. He wasted my bayou and I failed to draw a single land thereafter. Vet sat around while the insect ate me. Game 2 I have a nice hand. T1 swamp. T2 mountain. Fail to draw another land while Kcommand sits in hand. decays sit in hand. Nothing for 5 turns. Sometimes your deck "gives up" lol. We played a 3rd game for funsies and I can curve-out while obliterating him. Sucks to suck sometimes. Jake finished 9th, so I can't complain too much. Doubt my breakers would have launched me into 8th. Who knows.

Conclusions
1. There's never enough space in the list.
2. Play K-commands. Why are we not running a playset!? Oh yeah, see point #1 above.
3. (Kevin's head is going to explode) Meren won me games. Thrun was an all-star all day. Titania shits all over your opponent.
4. The only 6 drop you need is Carnage.
5. The only 5 drop you need is Titania.
6. I needed 1cc spells like bolt or push all day. Actually leaning towards bolt because sometimes you need the reach and not a removal-kill spell (relevant vs walkers, racing opponent, combat math). Don't debate about Pfires here. 2cc are clogged.

7. Revamped sideboard:
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Price of Progress
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
3 FLEX (choke, pulse of murasa, toxic deluge, ramunap, pyroblast, etc)
4 Leyline of the void

8. Don't leave home without 3 deed in the 75. The toxic was great but I needed another deed all day.
9. (tongue-twister) Kessig Wolf Run won me one game. Despite that, I would remove it + primetime in favor of color-producing lands + making the deck 60 cards total.
10. Garruk Relentless and Huntmaster never showed up. Could cut them without feeling it.
11. 4 drops are where this deck makes or breaks it.
12. Same conclusion as last month: Hexproof is ridiculous. Opponents can't compete with it.

[Echelon]

@Warden: Sad to see you go, loved reading the report. I'm pretty much in the same boat as you are when it comes to playing MtG - I struggle to reach once a month, or once every two months. I do enjoy the collection aspect of it though - I like owning the physical cards and thinking "Yeah, one of these days...".

Anyways, don't forget to have fun on your wedding. Don't sweat the small stuff, just enjoy it, eachother and those close to you. And cross your fingers for good weather!

[p.faul01]

Hey guys, I played a local tournament yesterday and wanted to share my results. I played a classical rhino fit. deck list at the end of the post.

The tournament had 18 players of which I scouted: 2x aggro loam, 2x junk nic fit (me incl.), 2x sneak show, 2x grixis delver/pyro, lands, ANT, jurassic fit, BUG nic fit, enchantress, maverick, burn, UB reanimator and 2 unknown.

Match 1: Lands (1 : 0 : 1)
G1: had a slow start, but enough interaction with path + witness. I managed to exile marit lage 4 times in that game and finished off with kaya into 2 rhino.
G2: was a really grindy game. Gained a ton of life with rhino and thragtusk, but opponent had loam running with 2 maze + tabernacle to stall the game forever. went to time and got him down to 1 life in the last turn.. Pithing needle on thespian's stage really did the job for me in this game.

Match 2: Sneak Show (0:2)
G1: He gets griselbro into play, draws a bunch, dead.
G2: I believe I duressed his sneak attack, but he eventually finds a show and tell to put in flying spagetthi monster. dead.

Match 3: ANT (1:2)
G1: I knew he plays storm. Mulligan an okay hand down to 6 for some action. Don't know the exact sequence, but I tried to discard some of his stuff, while he brainstormed greedy and kept his LED in hand. I expected him to hide that and named Lotus Petal -> hit, but still LED in hand :/ I believe he goes off on turn 4.
G2: Managed to get Kambal into play. That guy won me the game single-handedly. Though in a competitive rule enforcement I would've lost. Don't miss the Kambal triggers guys!
G3: Guess I threw that game by hard missplaying. My starting hand included swamp, duress, therapy, surigcal, GSZ, rhino (I had no other lands). I t1 duress him, see Chain of Vapors, Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, Cabal Ritual, Bayou, Infernal Tutor + 1 more card (can't remember). Choose Infernal Tutor and instantly fired off my surgical to get all his tutors out. (That surgical should be the first missplay) Can't really remember the rest of the game. It was something like: I draw dryad arbor. Play Therapy (see tendrills in his hand) and think for long time if I should sac my only green source for flashback to take the tendrills. Which I decided to do (second missplay). He cantrips into Past in Flames (thanks statistics) and finishes me off. I believe I should've just let him have the tendrills in hand and rather try to stabilize my manabase with GSZ into explorer + flashback that instead. But ey it's a game and I learn from mistakes.

Match 4: Aggro Loam (2:0)
G1: Scouted the guy before. Won the die roll. T1 swamp, therapy, name chalice -> hit twice. The guy rolls his eyes and laughed. I apologized and felt really sorry for him. Rest of the game was easy going. Rhinos doing their job.
G2: He gets sylvan library and bob going. I find my garruk, which was awesome to kill bob. Rest of the game was rhino, garruk saccing vet to fetch sigarda -> win. Opponent told me he boarded out lilianas, guess that's right, but still possibly the most scary card for me, from the whole deck.

Match 5: Sneak Show (yes again...) (0:2)
G1: He cantrips, I play rhino and durdle stuff. He slams sneak into emmi. dead.
G2: Started off with duress, then play library, draw 3 since life doesn't matter. Have a canonist in play. He plays sneak, I die. Sadly didn't get any lost legacy against a sneak deck. Learned to not board in surgicals and canonists against sneak show decks.

Overall I enjoyed the tournament, even though 3 games were known bad MUs. Was my first legacy paper event and hope you enjoyed to read my report. Any feedback is welcome. Regarding sideboard: I think I should add To the Slaughter or at least Diabloic Edict against the sneak matchup. I'm also considering collective brutality which duplicates as hate against oposing DRS. Another sidenote: I never drew Vindicate nor Painful Truths. Maybe possible to replace them. Thinking about Abzan Charm. But I always kept the Truths in to have faster access to sideboard cards. I enjoyed playing small nissa. She at least guarantees a landdrop.

My personal highlights of the evening:
* Exiling marit lage 4 times in 1 game
* The first therapy against the loam deck with double chalice hit
* Garruk fetching sigarda with enough mana to directly cast thanks to explorer ramp


4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk

3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Painful Truths
1 Vindicate

1 Sylvan Library
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Kaya, Ghost Assassin
1 Nissa, Vital Force

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath


SB:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Pithing Needle
3 Lost Legacy
1 Golgari Charm
2 Duress
3 Surgical Extraction

[Brael]

@Warden: Sad to see you go, loved reading the report. I'm pretty much in the same boat as you are when it comes to playing MtG - I struggle to reach once a month, or once every two months. I do enjoy the collection aspect of it though - I like owning the physical cards and thinking "Yeah, one of these days...".

Anyways, don't forget to have fun on your wedding. Don't sweat the small stuff, just enjoy it, eachother and those close to you. And cross your fingers for good weather!

I got into MTGO pretty recently, I don't actually play it all that much but it's very easy to buy into and sell out of both only take minutes so sitting on the digital cards doesn't really cost me anything.

I'm looking at shrinking my paper collection pretty significantly soon. I want to get it down to just the cards I'm going to play and move the bulk of my collection value either into foiling decks or into MTGO. I haven't decided on which yet, but to be perfectly honest the cards are just getting too pricey. I'm not comfortable having a $25,000 collection sitting in a card box on my desk, also I've been noticing paper cards getting harder and harder to move in large quantities for good value. I don't want to get stuck with a bunch of cards I can't get rid of in the future.

That said, I find paper Magic to be much more fun than online.

[Brael]

Hey guys, I played a local tournament yesterday and wanted to share my results. I played a classical rhino fit. deck list at the end of the post.

The tournament had 18 players of which I scouted: 2x aggro loam, 2x junk nic fit (me incl.), 2x sneak show, 2x grixis delver/pyro, lands, ANT, jurassic fit, BUG nic fit, enchantress, maverick, burn, UB reanimator and 2 unknown.


When 22% of the field is Nic Fit I would definitely switch to something else that dodges hate. You're just begging to get destroyed by peoples sideboards in that meta.


Overall I enjoyed the tournament, even though 3 games were known bad MUs.

Which three? ANT, S&S, and Loam are all good matches normally.

[p.faul01]

When 22% of the field is Nic Fit I would definitely switch to something else that dodges hate. You're just begging to get destroyed by peoples sideboards in that meta.



Which three? ANT, S&S, and Loam are all good matches normally.I believe combo/unfair Decks in general are the weakness of junk. So I meant ANT and the two S&S matches. The meta was not really tuned regarding gravehate. It was the first legacy tournament in that play group and 100% proxies were allowed. So I also didn't know what to expect ;)

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[Brael]

I believe combo/unfair Decks in general are the weakness of junk. So I meant ANT and the two S&S matches. The meta was not really tuned regarding gravehate. It was the first legacy tournament in that play group and 100% proxies were allowed. So I also didn't know what to expect ;)

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Junk is well positioned against Sneak and Show, but you have to build your deck properly. Between Karakas, Crop Rotation, Swords/Path, and Edict you should have 8 1 mana instant ways to stop what they put out (5 Emrakul, 8 Griselbrand). If you run a Maze of Ith in your sideboard that jumps to 8 and 9 postboard. Then you should also have a Toxic Deluge for S&T since they don't get haste then, and a second postboard. That's on top of Cabal Therapy in G1 and Duress out of the board. All in all you should be looking at 13 cards that interact in G1 and 16 after the SB. It's not an autowin, but we're definitely favored... but this goes back to my earlier argument that your deck is built much less than optimally.

ANT is a little harder but still winnable. I prefer to not play against it, but I don't feel like it's bad either. It should be close to even. Cabal Therapy names are very important, but more than that... having some interaction is good. Being able to wipe the GY in response to a Past in Flames, Lost Legacy something, Pulse of Murasa to beat a lethal Tendrils, and so on. There's a lot you can do to shut them down.

If you want to be more competitive you should lower your curve. What will cost you more games than anything else is playing a high curve that's dependent on mana acceleration, and then missing that acceleration through either draws or disruption. 3 5 drops and 5 4 drops is a lot.

Also, since your meta is new, you should absolutely 100% build to beat unfair decks. People will play force check decks initially (especially in full proxy events) and since you're on a deck that doesn't play force, you need tools to fight that.

[p.faul01]

Junk is well positioned against Sneak and Show, but you have to build your deck properly. Between Karakas, Crop Rotation, Swords/Path, and Edict you should have 8 1 mana instant ways to stop what they put out (5 Emrakul, 8 Griselbrand). If you run a Maze of Ith in your sideboard that jumps to 8 and 9 postboard. Then you should also have a Toxic Deluge for S&T since they don't get haste then, and a second postboard. That's on top of Cabal Therapy in G1 and Duress out of the board. All in all you should be looking at 13 cards that interact in G1 and 16 after the SB. It's not an autowin, but we're definitely favored... but this goes back to my earlier argument that your deck is built much less than optimally.

ANT is a little harder but still winnable. I prefer to not play against it, but I don't feel like it's bad either. It should be close to even. Cabal Therapy names are very important, but more than that... having some interaction is good. Being able to wipe the GY in response to a Past in Flames, Lost Legacy something, Pulse of Murasa to beat a lethal Tendrils, and so on. There's a lot you can do to shut them down.

If you want to be more competitive you should lower your curve. What will cost you more games than anything else is playing a high curve that's dependent on mana acceleration, and then missing that acceleration through either draws or disruption. 3 5 drops and 5 4 drops is a lot.

Also, since your meta is new, you should absolutely 100% build to beat unfair decks. People will play force check decks initially (especially in full proxy events) and since you're on a deck that doesn't play force, you need tools to fight that.I agree with some of your points but not with all. First of all I am not in the position to play a tournament to win anything. Since it was my first paper legacy event I am mainly learning the deck. Secondly my maindeck is built to beat midrange decks. That's also a reason for so few options against unfair decks. Your argument about force check decks is totally viable, and I agree that I should be better prepared for unfair decks in a 100% proxy tournament. But I don't agree on the maze against sneak decks. 1 attack trigger from emrakul is enough to lose the game. I am thinking about adding some number of crop rotations to my 75 and possibly a bojuka bog in the sb. But maze only helps against griselbro. Toxic deluge might also find a place in the 75. Currently I also think about collective brutality. Since on the one side it kills annoying DRS and on the other side it is additional discard against sneak attacks or the like.

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[Brael]

But I don't agree on the maze against sneak decks. 1 attack trigger from emrakul is enough to lose the game. I am thinking about adding some number of crop rotations to my 75 and possibly a bojuka bog in the sb. But maze only helps against griselbro. Toxic deluge might also find a place in the 75. Currently I also think about collective brutality. Since on the one side it kills annoying DRS and on the other side it is additional discard against sneak attacks or the like.

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S&S generally runs 4 Griselbrand and 2 Emrakul. Of the threats, Griselbrand is a bigger threat because one will draw into another off of Sneak Attack. Emrakul on the other hand will make you sacrifice some stuff, but you're still playing the game provided you were at 16 life or higher. It never feels good to sacrifice 6 permanents, but in and of itself that's not a game ender.

Where Maze really shines though is against an active Sneak Attack when it's highly likely the opponent is holding a defensive Griselbrand. In most cases in that scenario you can't swing, because the opponent will activate, eat your best guy, gain life, and if necessary draw cards. However, with Maze you can swing in and Maze whatever the opponent blocks.

Don't worry about building to beat midrange, you'll do that naturally, you'll perform better across the board if you improve combo and leave midrange at a 70% win rate rather than sacrifice combo to push midrange to 80%.

[kombatkiwi]

Currently I also think about collective brutality. Since on the one side it kills annoying DRS and on the other side it is additional discard against sneak attacks or the like.


I agree with the general sentiment of this but you might want to read the card again

[p.faul01]

I agree with the general sentiment of this but you might want to read the card againMy intention is to discard sneak attack itself and not the creatures ;)

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[p.faul01]

My intention is to discard sneak attack itself and not the creatures ;)

Gesendet von meinem SM-J320F mit TapatalkOh I see what you mean. It's not duress but only instant and sorcery. Dangit

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[Leshrac82]

So i took a break for a few months (much longer than i planned, i needed a while to find my motivation to play MTG again), but recently i started playing on Magic Online again with my NicFit-Cloudpost hybrid. I made a few changes, and so far i like where i'm at. I cashed my last 5 Leagues and today i finally went 5-0 again, so i expect my list to get posted at some point.

This is the current list:

Maindeck (61 cards):
Lands (26):
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
3 Cloudpost
3 Glimmerpost
2 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Phyrexian Tower
Creatures (16):
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Walking Ballista
2 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Spells (19):
2 Mox Diamond
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Crop Rotation
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Collective Brutality
2 Sylvan Library
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Pernicious Deed

Sideboard (15):
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Lingering Souls
2 Thoughtseize
2 Crop Rotation
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Pernicious Deed

Most noticable changes: I went down to just 3 Cloudposts. I was already boarding out 1-2 Cloudposts along with my Eldrazi in many matchups. The only matchups where i really need the ability to cast Eldrazi are those against the blue midrange-control decks like 4-Color Leovold and similar decks, including Miracles. Those decks usually don't play Wastelands, so i thought i could be fine with just 3 Cloudposts to get against those decks, and so far it seems to work. Against other decks, it's better for my deck to play fewer lands and be a little closer to a typical NicFit deck.
Otherwise i'm mostly experimenting. The Ballistas are at this point staying for good, the maindeck Collective Brutalities are still flex slots.

From what i gathered so far, the deck seems to be well positioned on Magic Online right now (as well positioned as a NicFit deck can be at least). This is how my 5-0 League went for example:

Match 1: Miracles (2-1):
Game 1: I was able to stick a Library on Turn 2 and things seemed well under Control, i eventually had Eye of Ugin, cast Ulamog and got rid of some lands (and he got plowed), and then i had enough mana with Cloudposts to search for Emrakul and cast her next turn against no pressure. But then he played Back to Basics, stopping that plan just in time. I had all my mana still untapped, managed to crack an Explorer and get some more basics and eventually did find enough mana to search for and cast Emrakul.
Game 2: He kept a weak hand on the back of Back to Basics, i managed to disard that but he topdecked Jace into Entreat and killed me pretty fast.
Game 3: He had Back to Basics again, but i already had Pernicious Deed in play and eventually cracked it, Tracker sticks and finds me a lot of cards, with Library i can bait out a Counterspell and resolve GSZ->Primetime, that's good enough with Eye of Ugin and some Cloudposts.

Match 2: Eldrazi (2-0):
Game 1: I already know he's playing Eldrazi (played against him yesterday). He mulligans to 5 und plays T1 Chalice which shuts of 3 cards in my hand, but i have T2 Library, get an Explorer into play (and he attacks into it), manage to stick a Tracker followed by Primetime, he concedes.
Game 2: I mulligan to 5, he has Leyline of the Void. I punt on T1, not playing my Mox Diamond as my only colored source - he has a Spirit Guide for a T2 TKS to take the Mox and i'm almost ready to concede after he wastes my Cloudpost too. I find a Bayou just in time, can stick a Tracker and Courser, trade the Courser for his TKS. I get rid of his Leyline with RecSage, he has an Endbringer (and i'm on 4 life, 6 life after playing Brutality), i get Knight and an Explorer. Then i have to trade my Tracker + Explorer + RecSage against a Smasher, now only Knight against Endbringer. I get Titania, he has another Endbringer. I have another Brutality to gain 2 life and can fetch a Glimmerpost with Knight, with Karakas i can keep replaying Titania and barely win the race against his pinging Endbringers with a bunch of Elemental tokens.

Match 3: Dredge (2-0):
Game 1: I start with Mox, Explorer, Tower, crack Explorer, play Scooze. He still has a shot because he was on the play and manages to do a lot of dredging on his 2nd Turn, but finds only 1 Narcomaeba, and my Scooze has 1 open mana for that. Afterwards i have 4 green mana open and there is no realistic way he can win from here.
Game 2: I mulligan to 6, keep a hand with Bog and 2x Crop Rotation. My T1 Bog only sets him back only one turn, but i take away his sideboaded Iona. With GSZ->Arbor i can make a T3 Marit Lage with my Crop Rotations, since he attacks with his flyers this is Game Over - or it would be, if i didn't block one of his Narcomaebas, so he buys himself another turn with Dread Return for that. My punt doesn't matter because i topdeck a Ballista to get rid of his blocker.

Match 4: 4-Color-Leovold (2-0):
Game 1: I mulligan to 5 into a hand with just Cloudpost, Stage, Glimmerpost, Tower and Crop Rotation (no green mana). I find a Mox and a Glimmerpost, my Crop Rotation for Eye of Ugin resolves and that's Game Over because he has no pressure, he concedes to Ulamog.
Game 2: I keep a slow 7, manage to crack an Explorer with Therapy and can resolve Titania and then Primetime, he concedes to Eye of Ugin and some Cloudposts.

Match 5: 4-Color-Stoneblade (2-1):
Game 1: Very long game, i don't really have a board but get some mana online while i'm slowly dying to his Batterskull and some other stuff. I make a deciding punt: With 6 mana in play, 8 mana on the following turn, and Primetime and Therapy in hand i play Therapy for FoW and see just a Snapcaster. Next Turn i punt again, i should have flashed it back to check for FoW again, since he doesn't have enough mana or cards in hand to get around that by playing his Snapcaster for a Brainstorm. That costs me the game, if Primetime resolves i win pretty much for sure.
Game 2: I keep a risky 7 with Eye, Cloudpost, Stage and no green mana. He sees my hand and at first tries to race with Jace, but after i play my 2nd Stage he realizes i win this race. He tries to go wide and be aggressive, but probably miscounts my mana: With one creature in play and Tower in hand i have enough mana to cast Emrakul, and since he attacked with all his flyers and is under 15 life that's lethal. I don't think Ulamog (and then probably Ballistas) would have been good enough.
Game 3: I can crack an Explorer early on, have Lingering Souls to block forever and then stick a Tracker that lives and completely takes over the game. He was very low on time (and i was 7 minutes ahead), so i would have probably won on time anyway, but when he concedes i was pretty far ahead on board too.

So overall i definitely made some mistakes in this League, one of them actually did cost me a game, but ultimately it didn't matter. These games also show why i stick to my Cloudpost package, that won 3 of these matches, and it also shows the package is still good enough to do that with just 3 Cloudposts. No combo decks (other than Dredge) in this League, that definitely helped, but i think most combo matchups are ok (the only decks that are a real problem are Show&Tell decks, everything else should be at least close to 50/50). No Delver either, but at least Grixis Delver seems to be a pretty good matchup.

[Leshrac82]

I don't like double posts, but well - i 5-0ed the very next League too, same list.

This time against:
UR-Delver
RUG-Delver
Grixis Control
Aluren
Punishing Maverick

Clean 5-0 with 10-0 in games this time, and it wasn't really close in any game. There was obviously some luck involved, but i'm feeling pretty good about the deck right now, it seems the bad luck i had after getting into Magic Online finally turned around. :wink:

[djxstream]

I don't like double posts, but well - i 5-0ed the very next League too, same list.

This time against:
UR-Delver
RUG-Delver
Grixis Control
Aluren
Punishing Maverick

Clean 5-0 with 10-0 in games this time, and it wasn't really close in any game. There was obviously some luck involved, but i'm feeling pretty good about the deck right now, it seems the bad luck i had after getting into Magic Online finally turned around. :wink:

nicely done, big fan of your list. may have to purchase a pair of ballistas.

[Leshrac82]

nicely done, big fan of your list. may have to purchase a pair of ballistas.

Yes, the Ballistas are pretty much fixed in the deck at this point. If you don't play them on an empty board, they are very often 2-for-1s even in the early game. And later they threaten to take over many games.

I 5-0ed one more League last week (with Abrupt Decays in place of the Brutalities), and overall my winrate this year is at 60% - still a small samplesize of ~150 matches, but it is pretty stable. (Last year i was just barely above 50%, with a deck that had >70% on xmage.)

Other changes i'm working on:
I cut the Titania, because it was either too clunky (against Delver and combo) or felt win-more most of the time, and i haven't missed her yet - or rather: I missed her in a few games, but i won all of those games anyway, so my feeling that it was win-more was probably right.
Recently i added 2 more fetchlands to the deck, because i got colorscrewed a little bit too often. Now i'm finally thinking about the Mox Diamonds again, and did some work: I went over all my replays in Magic Online, and just looked for Mox Diamonds drawn at least until turn 2 (the reasoning is that a Mox Diamond drawn later than turn 2 is bad almost every time). I did that last year too, and at that point my winrate with Mox Diamond was significantly higher than without it, but that changed, maybe because the metagame changed: Just this year my gamewinrate with Mox Diamond was just 57% and without it, it was 58%. The difference is marginal, but since a Mox Diamond later in the game is a bad draw i really want a boost in winrate with it in my opening hand, and the data doesn't support that. With a little more detail: As expected, Mox Diamond gave a pretty big boost against combo decks and Chalice decks (Blood Moon is the reason for that mostly). Against Delver decks, it was actively very bad (these games are often about card advantage), and against other fair decks it didn't really matter either way (my guess here: the games usually go so long it doesn't really matter when i draw the Mox Diamond - i expected even worse results than against Delver and this is my only reasonable explanation why the Mox was better than against Delver).
I still think playing Mox Diamond might have been the right call in the metagame last year with less Delver decks and more combo decks, but right now i guess i finally have to cut them - and since i'm playing 2 more fetchlands now, i should still have enough colored mana sources either way.

Not exactly sure what i want as a replacement. Deathrite would be the logical choice for something similar, but whenever i tried it, it hasn't been impressive at all in this deck: It's unreliable as a mana source with so many other Deathrite decks around, and against fair decks i usually wipe the board at some point and would kill my own Deathrites. I could just move some sideboard cards to the maindeck (either some removal or most likely Lingering Souls) to make room for more sideboard slots, maybe something more against combo to make up for the slower starts.

[djxstream]

I 5-0ed one more League last week (with Abrupt Decays in place of the Brutalities), and overall my winrate this year is at 60% - still a small samplesize of ~150 matches, but it is pretty stable. (Last year i was just barely above 50%, with a deck that had >70% on xmage.)

Other changes i'm working on:
I cut the Titania, because it was either too clunky (against Delver and combo) or felt win-more most of the time, and i haven't missed her yet - or rather: I missed her in a few games, but i won all of those games anyway, so my feeling that it was win-more was probably right.

funny enough, i only came across your deck months ago (er probably year+ actually) when looking for Titania decks. but yeah with DRS all over, it doesnt make sense anymore as they can easily stop the ramp.

Collective brutality is such a good card, i played RG Lands with a black splash for it and man did it perform. But i can see how decay would be better in a deck like this.

After i get the ballistas (in paper and mtgo) ill be able the build this in both and let you know how i do.

[Matsu]

Hi all,
Just a short battle report.
I was playing Win 2 Duals at my LGS. I expected a lot of Delver decks, did not miss.

Round 1 - Canadian Treshhold
Game 1
I have a clunky start with Treetop Village and Scrubland. He has a slow hand. He leads with Trop into Goose, then bolts my Shaman. I manage to cast a Cabal Therapy (blindly name Stifle, miss) and see bolt + 3 fetchs. He draws delver, cast and the goose in the incoming turn. Because no coutermagic I secure Sylvan library. When he finally has threshhold. I cast Veteran Explorer, Cabal Therapy from grave, resolve:eek:, name bolt, hit 2 cards. I see a Daze and cast Toxic Deluge removing his board. Next turn I follow with Nissa. He surrenders.
Game 2
I keep a good hand with Therapy, he has no early aggression I Path to Exile his Mandrill. Next turn I follow with Dromoka, he reads the cards, looks at me look, at his hand. Draw a card play a 1/1 goose. Dromoka finishes the game in 3 turns.
1-0

Round 2 - Graveyard action BUG
I know James and he is always on some spice.
Today he plays a BUG good stuff with crazy loam/DD/ thespian stage/Leo/unearth/snap:confused:
Game 1
We have a slow start. I slowly ramp, he Wasteland me twice with Ramunap Excavator and I vindicate his Liliana of the Veil in response. Then siege rhino takes care of strix+jace. After a Therapy, I see no countermagic and DD+ Stage, I play Sylvan Library and hope for anything, I am at 12, cast Thrugtusk. He proceeds to play Stage. I play Siege Rhino go to 20 (not enough:eyebrow:). He plays DD. I dig for a Path to Exile and Dromoka, cast Dromoka resolve, Exile Marit Lage and swing for victory.
Game 2
He mulls to 5 and I have a full control of the game.
2-0

Round 3 - Grixis delver with Stifle.
Game 1
He plays TNN turn 3 and I die 7 turns later not finding an answer.
Game 2
I am stuck on my 2 starting lands when he has Daze, 2 Force of will, 2 Stifles, casting only a ponder and naturally drawing everything, finally killing me with TNN+bolt.
2-1

Round 4 - Canadian Treshhold
Game 1
I did some intel between rounds and he is in some sort of delver. I play the first game around Daze, resolve Sylvan library and use it aggressively, play Rhino, he bolts it twice, next turn I play Tragtusk to match his mandrill, then I follow with Sigarda:laugh:
Game 2
I keep a hand with 4 lands, rhino and abrupt decay. He goes trop brainstorm:confused:.
I play a Forest. on turn 2 he plays wasteland and sylvan library. I play a Swamp and cast Decay in my turn. I draw lands for two turns:mad:. He plays a couple of cantrips and a mandrill, I proceed to draw and cast rhino then I draw the rest of the holy trinity, Sigarda and Dromoka.
He sideboarded out his countermagic - 4 FoW
3-1

Round 5 - Grixis no stifle
So I cannot draw to top 8 and my opponent is my good friend and sparring partner Adam.
Game 1
I win without problem, I have an early Therapy followed by Veteran explorer and Rhino.
Game 2
he plays Liliana last hope with double TNN I manage to kill Liliana with Treetop Village remove the TNNs with pernicious deed. I am at 1 life and snap+bolt me to next game.
Game 3
We are stuck on 2 lands with a Shaman each and no fetch in grave. We grind for multiple turns and I am at 3 and die to bolt with a board of choke, pithing needle on Liliana last hope with 7 counter, rhino, shaman, sylvan library and 6 lands.
3-2

I finish 10th with an overall score of 7-4 victory in matches and 3-2 in games.

We had between 25-30 people (I think). I saw 2 blade decks, storm, Goblins, D&T, Infect, elves, 2 Loam, 2 Burns, rest were delver decks of different flavor.

Below my deck list. I am currently happy with the deck, the sideboard needs to be adjusted. After not playing for 4 months I am happy with my and the deck performance. Any question just ask.

In the morning, I switched Dryad Arbor for an Island and Path to Exile for Leovold. The second Shaman (replaced 3rd Deeds) was added to enable blue mana same with Polluted Delta (should be split with Misty rainforest). Sometimes I missed the 3rd forest in the main.

Best cards today:
Forest and swamp for making Wasteland useless
Treetop for killing Liliana twice and killing opponent
Sylvan library
The holy trinity

Worst cards today
Ooze
Pridemage
E-Witness
To the slaughter

I still hate TNN.

Enjoy

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
Scavenging ooze
Qasali pridemage
Eternal witness
Tireless tracker
Leovold
2 Siege rhino
Thragtusk
Sigarda, host of Herons
Dragonlord Dromoka

Nissa, Vital Force

2 Sylvan Library
2 Pernicious deed

4 Green sun zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Path to Exile
To the slaughter
3 abrupt decay
Toxic Deluge
Vindicate

4 Windswept Heath
4 Polluted delta
Island
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Forest
Phyrexian Tower
Treetop Village
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
Scrubland

Side:
Kambal
Gaddock Teeg
2 Faerie Macabre
Reclamation Sage
Extirpate
Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
Path to exile
Pithing Needle
2 Choke
Golgari Charm
Engineered Plague

[mistercakes]

haven't had time to put together a sb, but wanted to hear some feedback on this list:



4 veteran explorer
4 green sun's zenith
4 cabal therapy
4 living wish
4 lion's eye diamond
4 infernal tutor
3 walking ballista
3 auriok salvagers
2 chromatic sphere
2 diabolic intent
2 deathrite shaman
2 liliana, the last hope
1 gaddock teeg
1 eternal witness
2 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Plains
3 Swamp
3 Forest
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Dryad Arbor


sb would contain obvious wish targets and then maybe some interaction stuff. could also incorporate a singleton sb slithermuse as well. (dunno if that would help at all.)

deck is capable of turn 2 kill with phyrexian tower if opening hand has turn 1 explorer, turn 2 phyrexian tower (hand needs a wish/tutor/salvager effect, led, and a win con (sphere/ballista).

[Echelon]

@Matsu: Great report!

@mistercakes: You're nuts :laugh:

[mistercakes]

I'm sure something more midrange with the combo would be better, but just threw it together to show that nicfit could win on turn 2.

[Brael]

I'm sure something more midrange with the combo would be better, but just threw it together to show that nicfit could win on turn 2.

Play fair and win on turn 2 anyways. I once played against Storm. I was on the play and my T1 involved playing a Veteran Explorer. They go off on T2 and Ad Naseam to 3 life but don't manage to put together a kill. I untap, play Strangleroot Geist, and swing for lethal. Good fair Magic.

[ObligatoryReference]

Hey all,

Dusting off my Nyx Fit/Rector Fit/whatever you want to call it in prep for GP Seattle. My main is pretty set, but I'm still not sure about a sideboard. Here's what I have so far:

2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Stony Silence
3x Leyline of Sanctity
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Helm of Obedience
3x ???

Thoughts/ideas/suggestions?

[Echelon]

1 mana discard. It's a nice catch-all against a lot of decks. It improves your combo MU, it helps you clear a way through counters etc. and card velocity will always be a thing.

[JackaBo]

Hey all,

Dusting off my Nyx Fit/Rector Fit/whatever you want to call it in prep for GP Seattle. My main is pretty set, but I'm still not sure about a sideboard. Here's what I have so far:

2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Stony Silence
3x Leyline of Sanctity
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Helm of Obedience
3x ???

Thoughts/ideas/suggestions?

Why do you need stony silence? I would rather see disenchant or possibly vindicate. We are super weak to black and white leyline as well as RIP. We are also pretty weak to planeswalkers. I also run a bunch of 1 mana removal to board in versus delver decks and DRS decks in general.

[Echelon]

This is my own current Nyx Fit SB:[cards]
3 Lost Legacy
3 Duress
2 Golgari Charm
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Reclamation Sage[cards]

I might want a Gaddock Teeg in there, though.

[l33twash0r]

This is my own current Nyx Fit SB:[cards]
3 Lost Legacy
3 Duress
2 Golgari Charm
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Reclamation Sage[cards]

I might want a Gaddock Teeg in there, though.

Current Nyx fit main?

[Echelon]

Current Nyx fit main?

Here you go:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Phyrexian Tower

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Lingering Souls
4 Academy Rector

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library
3 Evolutionary Leap

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge

1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Dovescape
1 Cruel Reality
1 Overwhelming Splendor

The Guiles and Library do a fine job to tie the list together. I do think I want a Sigarda somewhere in the MD though, to give GSZ some more utility in the lategame. Not sure what to cut though.

[ObligatoryReference]

Thanks for the ideas. I definitely think I'm going to swap out Stony Silence for Reclamation Sage (especially since I can grab it with GSZ, and use it to Leap).

I also agree that planeswalkers are annoying. If I want to go with more removal, would you go with Vindicate (for the ability to hit lands) or Maelstrom Pulse (for tokens or multiple leylines)?

[JackaBo]

Thanks for the ideas. I definitely think I'm going to swap out Stony Silence for Reclamation Sage (especially since I can grab it with GSZ, and use it to Leap).

I also agree that planeswalkers are annoying. If I want to go with more removal, would you go with Vindicate (for the ability to hit lands) or Maelstrom Pulse (for tokens or multiple leylines)?

Probably pulse now that you mention it. Not many lands you want to destroy.

[Purple Blood]

If Mind Twist and/or Survival were unbanned how would you guys try to incorporate them into a Nic Fit list? Thinking of trying these out at the next weekly free play.

[Brael]

I wouldn't. I would try to beat them instead. Nic Fit isn't explosive enough to Mind Twist, our best T2 opening (which is not at all consistent) generates 3BB. That's a Mind Twist for 4. Storm on the other hand is going to go ritual, ritual, Mind Twist for 6. You're not winning that battle, your best shot degenerates into either naming Mind Twist on the play with Cabal Therapy, or hoping to get a Gaddock Teeg down on T2.

[Echelon]

And Elves! still is a deck, too.

[Matsu]

If Mind Twist and/or Survival were unbanned how would you guys try to incorporate them into a Nic Fit list? Thinking of trying these out at the next weekly free play.

I will drop Mind twist and go for SotF.

SotF is so versatile, you can use it in many different shells.

1. Combo Control
SotF + Necrotic Ooze (Phyrexian devourer & Triskelion)
2. Control Toolbox
With silver bullets qasali pridemage, Flametongue Kavu, Bob, Genesis, etc...
3. Aggro Control
Basking Rootwalla + Vengevine + Tarmo. Maybe KotR (Probably this version will be more similar to today's Maverick)
4. Control with Combo/Lock
Academy rector + Recurring Nightmare + Yosei & Kokusho
5. Many more...

If you have time to experiment I will try to combine number 2 and 4.
But with the amount of Deathrite shaman in the format. I will not leave my house with something like this in my MB:
4x Sword to plowshares/Path to exile
4x Cabal therapy
4x Some spot removal/Discard (Brutality or a split 2x StP 2x Thoughtseize)

Back in the days I played a 4 colour control version with Recurring Nightmare. Almost every player played it differently. Some added Living Death, some added blue, for FoW, Brainstorm and Tradewind ryder. Some people only played GW. A friend of mine played 5 colours with 4x City of Brass and 4x Thran Quarry. People tried Superman with Spike feeder and Spike Weaver to simulate Oath of Druids.

Ah good old days:cool:

[Brael]

And Elves! still is a deck, too.

Elves with Mind Twist is scary.

[l33twash0r]

This is my own current Nyx Fit SB:[cards]
3 Lost Legacy
3 Duress
2 Golgari Charm
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Reclamation Sage[cards]

I might want a Gaddock Teeg in there, though.

Hmm no love for Leyline of the Void?

[Echelon]

Nope. I don't like it when cards get stuck in my hand if I don't get them in my opening 7. I rather have cards I can actually cast when drawn into.

[Plm]

Nope. I don't like it when cards get stuck in my hand if I don't get them in my opening 7. I rather have cards I can actually cast when drawn into.

You should try to play some black sources, I heard it works marvel in Nic Fit :tongue:.

Seriously, we shouldn't have difficulty to hardcast leyline, if we draw it turn 2 or 3 well, anyway either waiting one more turn is no problem or we are already dead and should have mulliganed (BR reanimator, dredge, oops).
On the other hand, we get free win of the back of a turn 0 leyline, and also helm of obediance :smile:.

But I don't advocate leyline as the only grave hate. I'm a fan of crop rotation and a bog in the side board makes a lot of work for little space.

I've fallen out of love with surgical, and leyline is active against a wide array of cards outside of pure grave strategies(delve creatures, deathrite, mongoose, okay this one is not that much relevant now, past in flame and cabal ritual, snapcaster mage... ).

Currently I play 4 leyline maindeck and a bog sideboard to go with the 2 crop rotations maindeck, but as I play helm as my main win con I'm totally biased.

[ObligatoryReference]

So I played in my main GP Seattle prep tournament yesterday (4K @ Channel Fireball Game Center) with my slightly suboptimal Nyx Fit. Started 3-0 and was feeling the dream until I punted hard in Round 4 (forgot multiple Sandwurm Convergence triggers) and went into a death spiral. It really hammered into me how exhausting it can be to play this deck for more than a couple rounds in a row - all but one of my matches went 40+ minutes and twice was one of the last to finish. Still a good time and good practice for longer tournaments.

A few random thoughts:

- After almost a year of playing (off-and-on, admittedly) I'm finally starting to get better with Cabal Therapy. Not just naming, but timing (getting Rector countered/exiled feels bad).

- My lock pieces are still Overwhelming Splendor, Dovescape, Curse of Death's Hold, and Sandwurm Convergence. While they're all good, I'm starting to wonder if it might be worth going back to Cruel Reality, even out of the sideboard. I had problems with Miracles especially being able to deal with the Wurm tokens long enough to ultimate JTMS.

- The biggest thing I have to practice is sideboarding - especially what to take out.

- Even if it's not the most consistent, Leyline of the Void + Helm of Obedience feels good :D

[Echelon]

You should try to play some black sources, I heard it works marvel in Nic Fit :tongue:.

Seriously, we shouldn't have difficulty to hardcast leyline, if we draw it turn 2 or 3 well, anyway either waiting one more turn is no problem or we are already dead and should have mulliganed (BR reanimator, dredge, oops).
On the other hand, we get free win of the back of a turn 0 leyline, and also helm of obediance :smile:.

Black sources are pretty damn good. Getting to 4 mana before you're dead is the tricky part though. That's why I like to stick to 1-2 mana stuff (or 3 if it's specifically Lost Legacy).


So I played in my main GP Seattle prep tournament yesterday (4K @ Channel Fireball Game Center) with my slightly suboptimal Nyx Fit. Started 3-0 and was feeling the dream until I punted hard in Round 4 (forgot multiple Sandwurm Convergence triggers) and went into a death spiral. It really hammered into me how exhausting it can be to play this deck for more than a couple rounds in a row - all but one of my matches went 40+ minutes and twice was one of the last to finish. Still a good time and good practice for longer tournaments.

A few random thoughts:

- After almost a year of playing (off-and-on, admittedly) I'm finally starting to get better with Cabal Therapy. Not just naming, but timing (getting Rector countered/exiled feels bad).

- My lock pieces are still Overwhelming Splendor, Dovescape, Curse of Death's Hold, and Sandwurm Convergence. While they're all good, I'm starting to wonder if it might be worth going back to Cruel Reality, even out of the sideboard. I had problems with Miracles especially being able to deal with the Wurm tokens long enough to ultimate JTMS.

- The biggest thing I have to practice is sideboarding - especially what to take out.

- Even if it's not the most consistent, Leyline of the Void + Helm of Obedience feels good :D

Convergence doesn't really solve anything Overwhelming Splendor already deals with. I had another outing w/ Nyx Fit this weekend (just sparring with my buddy) and won most of my games on the back of Cruel Reality. Once you grind your opponent out of resources they usually can't overcome it. They draw a card per turn, so they won't have any way to make a clock stick and die in a few turns. Cruel Reality is so much better than it looks.

[NON]

interesting looking GB list made 4th on a MODO legacy challenge:

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2018-03-26

I'm not sure I can get behind Woodland Bellower but otherwise the list looks sweet. Wurmcoil Engine over Grave Titan is an interesting choice.

[Matsu]

interesting looking GB list made 4th on a MODO legacy challenge:

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2018-03-26

I'm not sure I can get behind Woodland Bellower but otherwise the list looks sweet. Wurmcoil Engine over Grave Titan is an interesting choice.

Here is the list mentioned above

Planeswalker (1)
1 Nissa, Vital Force

Creature (16)
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Wurmcoil Engine

Sorcery (13)
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Instant (4)
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict

Enchantment (4)
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library

Land (22)
2 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
60 Cards

Sideboard (14)
1 Golgari Charm
1 Kitchen Finks
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vraska, Relic Seeker

I think the Wurmcoil Engine could be the 6 mana Dinosaur, probably a pet choice and works very well with Meren.
I am curious how did Vraska work and why no Thrun, to troll people with Counterspells. Maybe the MTGO meta is different than the paper meta

[Echelon]

Well, Thrun has been obsolete for several years now. It's just too small to be relevant.

[Ralf]

Hey,

It's been a while since I posted something in here.

Anyway, I saw the GB list and thought I could also share mine.

Given the actual meta, I have good (paper) results with the following list:


4 Veteran Explorer
2 Wall of Blossoms
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Ishkanah, Grafwidow
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

5 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Collective Brutality
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Crop Rotation

1 Nissa, Vital Force

1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Pernicious Deed

SB: 1 Qasali Slingers
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 Lost Legacy
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 xXx

Some explanations:

As usual I tried to stick as low to the ground as possible. I like smooth games with as much early interactions with your oppo as possible:

1) Wall of Blossoms

At first, this card looks it comes from an "old past" but in actual games this card is definitely pulling its weight:
- It replaces itself
- It acts as a "wall" (usually for a turn)
- It is food for cabal therapy when you need it (and that happens really often; you don't always have Veteran available or you don't want to give free lands to your opponent); combined with the "draw a card", it tempers the CDA.


2) Pernicious deed

With delve cards and drazi monsters occupying such a good chunk of the meta, PD is not at his best. This is unfortunate but one can leave without it. A mere one-of still pulls its weight. With 1 PD, 1 Toxic, 1 Pulse, you have enough tools to compete.


3) 8 basics/ 3 utility lands / 6 fetchs / 3 crop rotation.

This deck is hungry for mana. I kept fetchs as low as possible. Crop are here to give you the boost (Tower) you might need or the utility land you want (Karakas for tricks or oppo's monsters / Ghost quarter if you feel like going for an attrition kill). It also tricks with Kruphix / Tracker / Excavator.


4) 2 Kruphix / 2 Tracker

This split is mostly to have different CA engine along with some yard recursion (all along your mana curve). Kruphix was prefered to Thragtusk, CMC wise, CA wise and can be life savior in certain case (before you stabilize).


5) "Only" 3 top-end kills and no 6 CMC.

Each one of them has its purpose. Obviously only the creatures can be GSZed.

The spider is amazing when board is "stall" or when you need to stabilize while chumping for a few turns.
The reach ability is bonker as is its ping ability.

Titania is pure brute force and shall no longer be presented.

Eventually, both makes the game turn into a "porn" movie when Karakas is joining the party. Even better, they are usually not impacted by oppo's karakas...


6) Hymn to Tourach:

HTT is the main reason to stick with GB.
This card can obviously win games on its own. Luck has to be involved but this is needed especially when you have tournaments with so many rounds.
It also provides early enough interactions with combo decks. Such decks have always been the predators of Nic Fitters...

Well if you have any questions, please feel free.
The main deck is pretty set in stone, sideboard can be adjusted along your way.

Regards,

Ralf

[Matsu]

...

1) Wall of Blossoms

At first, this card looks it comes from an "old past" but in actual games this card is definitely pulling its weight:
- It replaces itself
- It acts as a "wall" (usually for a turn)
- It is food for cabal therapy when you need it (and that happens really often; you don't always have Veteran available or you don't want to give free lands to your opponent); combined with the "draw a card", it tempers the CDA.


...

Why not Elvish Visionary to pressure your opponent?
There are not many Trample creature at the moment (Hooting Mandrils), the elf gives you a 20 turns clock and a blocker to trade.

[Echelon]

Why not Elvish Visionary to pressure your opponent?
There are not many Trample creature at the moment (Hooting Mandrils), the elf gives you a 20 turns clock and a blocker to trade.

Glad to see you answered your own question :laugh:

[Ralf]

Why not Elvish Visionary to pressure your opponent?
There are not many Trample creature at the moment (Hooting Mandrils), the elf gives you a 20 turns clock and a blocker to trade.

That is correct.
I guess one has to assess whether or not your meta is filled with 3/2+ creatures.

My version might be lower to the grounds, it still is on the controllish side of thing.
I think being able to block "forever" a mongoose, a thalia, a reshaper, "you name it", is more important than the optionality of clocking your opponent for 20 turns (even with Jitte in the 75).
If I was playing Stoneforge, then yes, I would be playing Elvish for the "equip a squirrel, save my world".

But, one can make any change to the list provided to fit his bill. These are only ideas/thoughts/personal experience that I am sharing with you. I'm definitely not saying this is perfect.

[Brael]

I think I've got BUG worked out of my system now. I've been having good results with it in paper, but the people I've convinced to give it a try haven't been doing as well so I'm going to concede defeat on the build I think.

I would like to give a Jund build a try, taking advantage of some number of Burning Wish and Imperial Recruiters using the "half package" concept I've talked about before.

But, until I get to working on that I want to post my latest BG version. I'm quite proud of this build, I took the Scryb Ranger from BUG Flash (probably the best card discovery from that build) and incorporated it here. I got the deck down to 60 cards with 23 lands and a very redundant manabase. That's where I generally want to be when everything goes right.


Land 23
3 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
5 Forest
1 Karakas
4 Windswept Heath
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Creatures 19
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

Spells 18
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Crop Rotation
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Collective Brutality
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pernicious Deed

Sideboard 15
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Crop Rotation
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Duress
1 Golgari Charm
4 Lost Legacy
1 Pulse of Murasa
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge

[GodzillaBig]

Hey all,

New to the Nic Fit experience and loving every second of it. Im on a ScapeWish list and am wondering I s there an updated Cabal Therapy list we use now that atop isgone or is it gernally the same?

Thanks,
-GB

[Echelon]

Not much has changed on the CT front

[ObligatoryReference]

https://i.redd.it/jxph5wn11qp01.png

So, this may be too janky, but I can't help imagining that there may be a build here (Legend Fit?). At the very least, it could help you power out a bunch of lands...

[Echelon]

Nope, not gonna happen

[Brael]

https://i.redd.it/jxph5wn11qp01.png

So, this may be too janky, but I can't help imagining that there may be a build here (Legend Fit?). At the very least, it could help you power out a bunch of lands...

Legendary creatures with few exceptions are unplayable in Legacy. Unless it beats Karakas, playing it is a bad idea.

[Echelon]

And in those decks that could play it you're probably better off running Genesis Wave. That at least puts all permanents on the battlefield that are X mana or less.

Fun fact: I ran it in my first Legacy tournament. I was on a very budget Elves! list, a long, long time ago. I made T8 with it :laugh:.

[fireiced]

Legendary creatures with few exceptions are unplayable in Legacy. Unless it beats Karakas, playing it is a bad idea.


Technically could work with Nissa Vital Force or any walker.

Thou I think this card fails quite hard :eek:

[Taramawn]

Not sure if this qualifies as Nic Fit, but it does have Green Sun's Zenith and Atraxa: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18893&d=318344&f=LE

Plus, I've never met a toolbox deck I did not like.

[pettdan]

Not sure if this qualifies as Nic Fit, but it does have Green Sun's Zenith and Atraxa: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18893&d=318344&f=LE

Plus, I've never met a toolbox deck I did not like.

You'll find more info here:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32280-M-O-S-T-Merieke-Opposition-(Survival)-Tradewind-Rider

[Echelon]

Not sure if this qualifies as Nic Fit, but it does have Green Sun's Zenith and Atraxa: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18893&d=318344&f=LE

Plus, I've never met a toolbox deck I did not like.

Well, no Veteran Explorer and no Cabal Therapy pretty much means not Nic Fit.

[moseby]

I'm just getting back into playing magic again after about a years hiatus. I have sneaky-fit build let me know your thoughts on the list

9x Fetches
1 Phyrexian tower
1 Volraths Stronghold
2 Bayou
1 badland
1 Tagia
7 basics: 3 forest 2 swamp 2 mountain

4 Sneak Attack
2 Sylvan Library
1 Collective Brutality (should probably be K command?)
1 Painful Truths
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic deluge
1 Diabolic Intent
3x Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Cabal Therapy

1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Tireless tracker
1 Interno Titan
1 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
1 Rune Scared Demon
1 Massacre Wurm
1 Thragtusk
1Woodland bellower
4 Veteran Explorer

SB Yes I know it is 16 I need to drop 1 card in it
1 Deed
1 Nissa Vital Force
1 Reclimation Sage
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Golgari Charm
2 Lost legacy
1 Slaughter Games
2 REB
1 Nihil spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
3x bloodmoon

Thanks

[Plm]

I played helm fit at the GENEVA LEGACY 11.

I did the classic 3-3 drop :frown:

The strange thing is how my match up went. I started to win againt ANT in 3 games, then I defeated painter in 2 games and lands in 2 games. I felt unbeatable!
Sadly I lost against grixis delver, Czech pile and finally infect in the following rounds.

Here's the list I played :

4 explorer
4 cabal therapy

4 brainstorm
4 ponder

4 leyline of the void
3 helm
1 carnage tyrant
3 tireless tracker

2 pernicious deed
2 abrupt decay
2 collective brutality
2 diabolic edict

2 crop rotation
2 inquisition of kozilek
1 nissa vital force

2 island
2 forest
2 swamps
2 bayou
1 underground sea
4 verdant catacombs
3 polluted delta
2 misty rainforest
1 karakas
1 phyrexian tower
1 creeping tar pit

side :

bojuka bog
academy ruins
engineered explosives
toxic deluge
golgari charm
maelstrom pulse
echoing truth
duress
inquisition of kozilek
hymn to tourach
collective brutality
2 carpet of flowers
city of solitude
obstinate baloth

I won 2 games with tyrant, 2 games with traker beats and the rest with helm.

Most underwhelming cards were inquisition maindeck and nissa. Crop did some work but was not as impressive as usual.
Tar pit need to be a dryad arbor, I missed being able to flashback cabal of a fetch and it would have won me a game where liliana edicted my lonesome tyranosaurus :frown:.
Splashing just for the cantrips was nice , never felt that the manabase was hurt, did some nice digging.

[PanosIs]

Hello again guys,

As GP Bologna comes around tradition says I should slam some Rhinos in Legacy. Last time went pretty good after all, going 5-3 overall in two events. This time I'll be playing in 2-4 side events with Rhino Fit and am looking for feedback on my list. Consider that I am very much on a budget so even though I know Duals are in order, they're out of range for what I can afford. I am looking to optimize the list against Death and Taxes and midrange decks, forfeiting equity against combo.

So far my list is as follows, with a few open slots:


Creatures 17-18
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman

3 Siege Rhino

1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer

[1-2 open slots]

Noncreature Spells 20-21
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Path to Exile
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Sylvan Library
1 Vindicate
1 Abzan Charm

1 Nissa, Vital Force

[2-3 open slots]

Lands 22
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Temple Garden
2 Ghost Quarter

4 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains


Sideboard 15
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Duress
2 Lost Legacy
2 Golgari Charm
1 Pernicious Deed

[3 open slots]

I'm looking to fill the open slots, and have about 50-100$ to throw into the deck, so I'm looking to get the best possible return for my money. Some of the things I'm considering are:


Abrupt Decay
Anafenza, the Foremost
Ramunap Excavator
Tireless Tracker
Toxic Deluge
Phyrexian Tower
Leovold, Emissary of Trest
Kaya, Ghost Assasin
Damping Orb
Titania, Protector of Argoth
Karn, Scion of Urza

So, with these considerations, what would you suggest for the open slots, or even possible changes to the list? What should I prioritize in purchases?

[Echelon]

Hello again guys,

As GP Bologna comes around tradition says I should slam some Rhinos in Legacy. Last time went pretty good after all, going 5-3 overall in two events. This time I'll be playing in 2-4 side events with Rhino Fit and am looking for feedback on my list. Consider that I am very much on a budget so even though I know Duals are in order, they're out of range for what I can afford. I am looking to optimize the list against Death and Taxes and midrange decks, forfeiting equity against combo.

...

So, with these considerations, what would you suggest for the open slots, or even possible changes to the list? What should I prioritize in purchases?

Well, let's start with this. Speed is important. I'd replace Thragtusk w/ Siege Rhino #4, Reclamation Sage w/ Qasali Pridemage, Abzan Charm w/ Path to Exile #4 and Vindicate w/ Toxic Deluge. As for your free creature slots, add another DRS and Meren of Clan Nel Toth (b/c drawing an extra card each turn is pretty damn good). Concerning your manabase: Ghost Quarter has no place in this deck. If you can, try to go for Phyrexian Tower and Volrath's Stronghold.

As a general point on manabases in Junk Fit, try to get to a place where you have 14 initial manasources for each of your colours (so 14 ways to get a green mana on T1, 14 for black and 14 for white. These obviously overlap. W/ the right duals, fetchlands count towards 1 each and so on). The last thing you want is to lose games to manascrew

You might also want to look into Mirri's Guile. It's slowly getting a little bit more acceptance as decent card (and way of keeping your card velocity up).

Lastly, the sideboard. Swap a Surgical Extraction for Lost Legacy #3, since it's a blowout to a lot of bad MUs. Replace the 2 Carpet of Flowers for 2 Ethersworn Canonist (which is a card that actually does something) and Pernicious Deed for a Gaddock Teeg (b/c you really need all the help you can get vs. fast combo).

As for things to get, looking at my suggestions and reflecting on my own list, I'd prioritize as follows:
1: 1 or 2 copies of Phyrexian Tower (closely followed by a copy of Volrath's Stronghold, mind you)
2: 1 or 2 copies of Toxic Deluge
3: 3 copies of Tireless Tracker

Abrupt Decay might deserve a honorable mention, but that's about it. Leovold is risky when just on Junk and the other cards are often considered just not good enough (even though they might get close and still see some play from time to time).

Hope that helped!

[PanosIs]

First of all, thanks for the elaborate response. I'll try to discuss reasoning for some of the proposed changes.


Well, let's start with this. Speed is important. I'd replace Thragtusk w/ Siege Rhino #4, Reclamation Sage w/ Qasali Pridemage, Abzan Charm w/ Path to Exile #4 and Vindicate w/ Toxic Deluge. As for your free creature slots, add another DRS and Meren of Clan Nel Toth (b/c drawing an extra card each turn is pretty damn good). Concerning your manabase: Ghost Quarter has no place in this deck. If you can, try to go for Phyrexian Tower and Volrath's Stronghold.

Thragtusk -> Siege Rhino: A relic of the list running Kaya, Ghost Assassin in the mainboard, as Thragtusk is the best target for Kaya value. The change makes a lot of sense when you throw Kaya out.

Reclamation Sage -> Quasali Pridemage: Same situation as above, but here I can also see exalted being quite useful to help Rhinos punch through the various 5/5s of the format.

Abzan Charm -> Path to Exile: I'm thinking about this, but I enjoyed the flexibility of Charm and as an oneoff being able to act as removal/combat trick/draw all at instant speed.

Vindicate -> Toxic Deluge: If I go down the Vindicate I would certainly look to run some Abrupt Decays in the maindeck, as being able to deal with equipment out of D&D is quite important.

The idea on Ghost Quarter is to punish the extremely greedy no-basic manabases running around in the format, but with recent developments in the top tier decks, I agree it should probably go. Phyrexian Tower is one of the cards I've been looking to get anyways so that will be an easy swap-in and help the mana as well.


You might also want to look into Mirri's Guile. It's slowly getting a little bit more acceptance as decent card (and way of keeping your card velocity up).

Mirri's Guile is indeed appealing, we have a lot of shuffle effects and the difference between CMC 1 and CMC 2 for Library is huge.


Lastly, the sideboard. Swap a Surgical Extraction for Lost Legacy #3, since it's a blowout to a lot of bad MUs. Replace the 2 Carpet of Flowers for 2 Ethersworn Canonist (which is a card that actually does something) and Pernicious Deed for a Gaddock Teeg (b/c you really need all the help you can get vs. fast combo).

Good suggestions all around, although Canonist is not something I'd look to run, maybe some additional discard?


Snip.

I own Trackers and Decays. Would you run any of those in the main? Probably my first purchase is Phyrexian Tower along with Meren of Clan Nel Toth, although I don't know if I can fit Stronghold into the budget, should have gotten one when it was still cheap is the story of Magic: The Gathering.

Overall:
-1 Thragtusk +1 Rhino
-1 Reclamation Sage +1 Qasali Pridemage
-1 Vindicate +1 Toxic Deluge
-2 Ghost Quarter +2 Phyrexian Tower
+1 Deathrite Shaman
+1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
+2 Abrupt Decay

[Echelon]

MD Trackers yes, probably 2 or so. MD Abrupt Decay not so much, especially when runn QPM + Meren.

[PanosIs]

MD Trackers yes, probably 2 or so. MD Abrupt Decay not so much, especially when runn QPM + Meren.

Would you go with 2 Trackers and 2 Deathrites? Or is it better to go for 1 Tracker and 3 Deathrites? I was running 3 Trackers last year and they seemed too slow, but 2 might be the correct number, as in grindy matchups you really want one to stick, so having two to find with Zenith is good.

Even with Pridemage and Meren I think we want some amount of Decay, especially if Vindicate is out, there are plenty of noncreatures to take care off and Decay is very versatile. I'd for sure run at least one, maybe two.

[Echelon]

Well, I solved it like this:

Main (60)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Tireless Tracker
4 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Path to Exile
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library

Sideboard:
3 Duress
3 Lost Legacy
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pithing Needle
2 Golgari Charm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg

The plan is to go toe to toe with the blue decks during the early game (hence the large quantity of card selection), stabilize and then overpower them by burying them under cards and incremental pressure. It's relatively quick, nimble and persistant as hell. I understand it doesn't fit your budget, but I'm just trying to give an impression. Do know that being relatively low on removal and several other of my card choices are not conform the popular choice. Most lists tend to skim on the number of Guiles/Libraries and creatures in order to run more removal. Also, most lists go for a higher (or wider) top-end (so a few more 5-drops and possibly even a 6-drop).

As far as the manabase is concerned, the fetchlands are the most important part. They ensure you get to power out as many basics as possible. Then Phyrexian Tower & a Stronghold, and only then the duals. Bayou first (unfortunately), Savannah second and Scrubland last.

[Navsi]

Even with Pridemage and Meren I think we want some amount of Decay, especially if Vindicate is out, there are plenty of noncreatures to take care off and Decay is very versatile. I'd for sure run at least one, maybe two.

Deed and QPM already give you plenty of noncreature hate. If you're worried about planeswalkers, you probably want Maelstrom Pulse or To The Slaughter.

[PanosIs]

Snip.

I actually like this list quite a lot. And the only things that don't fit the budget are the duals/fetches. How has the Courser been performing? And also, aren't multiple Mirri's Guiles/Libraries dead draws after the first one? I understand that you want to fight the card quality game, but still.

[mistercakes]

Guile triggers for each one in play. You could look at top 3 then fetch then look at top 3.

[Echelon]

Plus, sometimes you play one into a counter or blow one up to Deed. Besides, you can always shuffle multiples away if they're on top of your library.

Courser is fine, have been running one for a long time now. Is great when you get it out vs. Burn, fine in fair MUs and crap vs. combo. Decent vs. Elves! though.

[Brael]

Going back a few pages, I want to bring up a discussion we had a couple months ago.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31293-Primer-Nic-Fit&p=1034448&viewfull=1#post1034448

As a quick refresher, the basic idea is that we could rate cards as good or bad in our deck based on what they interact with, or what they don't interact with.

A similar discussion is being had on MTGS right now for some Modern ratings, and I took the opportunity to use the discussion alongside some free time I had to try a test run of this system.

Essentially, the way it works is that each card is rated against each other card through a series of rules, the card in the column is rated by the card in the row, and at their intersection point in the grid we rate 1, 0, or -1 (still not sure on the -1). A 1 indicates the card matches up favorably according to the rules and a 0 means it doesn't.

For this test case I took the current top 40 most played cards in Modern and excluded the lands. That left me with 21 cards, which is 441 pieces of data. It took an average of 8 seconds per card to manually rate these (which is partially why I would like to build an automated system to do it).

My notes on this weren't the most legible but here's the copy/paste of the rules I used
Ratings rate first cast of each spell, at earliest opportunity.

Creatures:
Successfully fights (trades in combat, bounces in combat, wins in combat... does not die for nothing)
Edge cases - Fight exception If CA is gained (Wall of Omens example), variable p/t (ooze, goyf, etc) given arbitrary values, I'm using 4/5 goyf, 4/4 ooze

Removal:
Kills at target CMC+1 or less. (Terminate passes vs Birds of Paradise, Hero's Downfall does not)
Corner cases – Delve fails vs CMC of 1. Delve creatures assumed to fully delve, conditional enablers (metalcraft, revolt, etc) always assumed on. Must trade for full card (Electrolyze passes Lingering Souls, beats one side and draws another, Kolaghan's Command does not, fatal push loses to BBE), treat counterspells as removal

Discard:
Opponents choice discard never beats a card
Player choice discard must within choice cmc+1

Trading:
Use traditional CA counts, draw = +1, discard = -1, pass if parity or better (Cryptic Command hits parity against BBE, so it passes). Edge case, 2 for 1 passes at mana+3 vs mana +1. Additional cards gained such as 3 for 1 pass at mana +2 for each additional card.


Planeswalker:
May evaluate all modes usable on ETB, if any usable mode passes vs a given card, the card passes

No interaction:
If no interaction between cards (Vial vs Lighting Bolt), result is a -1.

So what people are probably wondering is... why mention all this Modern stuff on a thread for a Legacy deck? And my answer to that is that I want to build something similar for Nic Fit, or perhaps the format as a whole. But, in order to get it right, it's important to make a proper rating system. Such a rating system needs to not be subjective, and follow clearly defined rules so that everyone gets the same results when rating cards.

Here's the initial results I got
Raw scores
https://imgur.com/a/ItrujFZ

No -1's
https://imgur.com/a/xBiPzah

From this initial set of results, I've found that my ruleset is currently incomplete. The biggest question is what the proper rating is for two cards that totally ignore each other like Aether Vial vs Lightning Bolt. It seems incorrect to me to label that as an unfavorable interaction, so I was using -1 essentially as a null value. Introducing three values to the system: good, bad, and none. But I can also see an argument to rate with two values: good and other than good.

The other issue is that cards need to follow different rule sets based on the objective of a card. So a card would need to be rated both offensively and defensively under separate rules. What I'm coming up with so far is that cards need to be categorized as threat (wins the game), answer (stops opponent from winning), or enabler (makes another card more effective). Can anyone think of something that wouldn't fall into one of those three categories?

[Echelon]

Well, for starters I think you'll want to order the scores differently. 1 for Beats it, 0 for Don't care and -1 for Loses to it. You're using the total score as a way to differentiate between cards, so the highest score should be the one that wins in the highest number of cases and the one at the bottom should fare worst against the field.

As for objectives based rules, this is a tricky one. You're probably better off evaluating cards with a certain purpose (like finishing out a game) and figure out how they shape up vs. the various answers the format offers and other game finishers they might face. This way you can at least come up with a sensible answer for a specific group of cards and have a clear objective for the rules set. I mean, having the evaluate Aether Vial vs. Lightning Bolt is kinda silly.

Oh, and you'll have to weigh the different portions of the evaluation. Otherwise you might end up evaluating your card vs. 10 answers and 40 different game finishers, diminishing the value of not being affected by removal. Value of resilience vs. answers should probably be around 50 to 60% of your total. Also, I can see being able to outrace/answer a hard to answer threat could net more point than outracing/answering an easier to answer threat.

Although evaluating cards this way will probably put DRS somewhere at the bottom (it's small, a slow clock and dies and loses out to everything and their mother) whilst people are screaming for bans. :laugh:

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Off topic, I know, but to clarify, are you saying you personally don't believe DRS to be a reasonable card to ban in legacy, or are you being specific in the context of your +/- excercise only?

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[Echelon]

Off topic, I know, but to clarify, are you saying you personally don't believe DRS to be a reasonable card to ban in legacy, or are you being specific in the context of your +/- excercise only?

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

I'm firmly against a DRS ban. It's a 1 mana creature that dies to everything, deal with it. It only thrives b/c the format keeps inbreeding.

The evaluation on DRS has nothing to do with why I'm against banning it, by the way. Without DRS 4C decks just move to the next worst offender.

[Brael]

Well, for starters I think you'll want to order the scores differently. 1 for Beats it, 0 for Don't care and -1 for Loses to it. You're using the total score as a way to differentiate between cards, so the highest score should be the one that wins in the highest number of cases and the one at the bottom should fare worst against the field.

As for objectives based rules, this is a tricky one. You're probably better off evaluating cards with a certain purpose (like finishing out a game) and figure out how they shape up vs. the various answers the format offers and other game finishers they might face. This way you can at least come up with a sensible answer for a specific group of cards and have a clear objective for the rules set. I mean, having the evaluate Aether Vial vs. Lightning Bolt is kinda silly.

Oh, and you'll have to weigh the different portions of the evaluation. Otherwise you might end up evaluating your card vs. 10 answers and 40 different game finishers, diminishing the value of not being affected by removal. Value of resilience vs. answers should probably be around 50 to 60% of your total. Also, I can see being able to outrace/answer a hard to answer threat could net more point than outracing/answering an easier to answer threat.

Although evaluating cards this way will probably put DRS somewhere at the bottom (it's small, a slow clock and dies and loses out to everything and their mother) whilst people are screaming for bans. :laugh:

The problem though is that unless you make it a manual process, at some point you have to answer Aether Vial vs Lightning Bolt. The end goal would be to copy/paste complete oracle text and parse it. Not have to tune to a small number of cards.

I think DRS would rate highly, if the rules are written well, then they should confirm that good cards are good.


I'm firmly against a DRS ban. It's a 1 mana creature that dies to everything, deal with it. It only thrives b/c the format keeps inbreeding.

The evaluation on DRS has nothing to do with why I'm against banning it, by the way. Without DRS 4C decks just move to the next worst offender.

I disagree, DRS should eat a ban because of what it does to base blue/black decks. That's the offense in my opinion, nothing to do with GY utility and everything to do with the fact that Underground Sea casts a mana dork.

[Plm]

@ echelon : no love for collective brutality in rhino list ? It is the one nic fit variant where the reach mode is the most useful.

[Echelon]

Nope, velocity is too low and most modes are too ineffective. I've tried it, but found it falling short too often for my taste.

[Brael]

Well, for starters I think you'll want to order the scores differently. 1 for Beats it, 0 for Don't care and -1 for Loses to it. You're using the total score as a way to differentiate between cards, so the highest score should be the one that wins in the highest number of cases and the one at the bottom should fare worst against the field.

Just realized I never answered this part, beating a card is obvious, but non interactivity is a whole other thing you can build for. Cards which the opponents answers don't necessarily beat, but rather where they have no interaction at all is something useful. So depending on your goal, you can be wanting to sort either high and see an interactive card that beats the answers, or sort low and find a card that blanks the opponents hand... both serve the same overall purpose. It's cards that score a zero that are bad, but you also don't want a 1 and -1 to cancel each other out, nor do you want a 1 and -1 to add together as in an absolute value, because that's not accurate either.

[Echelon]

Just use a datastructure to store how many times each case occurs, that'll let you differentiate as you desire. On a sidenote, you probably don't care about Loses to (since that'll be the inverse of Beats). Just store Beats & Ignores and you're there.

Does explain why Manaless Dredge can be a thing - very little Beats, lots of Ignores.

[Brael]

Just use a datastructure to store how many times each case occurs, that'll let you differentiate as you desire. On a sidenote, you probably don't care about Loses to (since that'll be the inverse of Beats). Just store Beats & Ignores and you're there.

Does explain why Manaless Dredge can be a thing - very little Beats, lots of Ignores.

Loses and beats are not inverses. Two cards can beat each other or lose to each other. Goyf loses to Goyf in the threat category, Goyf beats Goyf in the answer category, in a general case Inquisition and Thoughtseize both beat each other, one beating the other doesn't make the other lose.

[Echelon]

In that case just track all separately

[sdematt]

Nope, velocity is too low and most modes are too ineffective. I've tried it, but found it falling short too often for my taste.

I think Brutality is fine, but you want to leverage discarding those cards for some gain. Ex. Fires builds, Lingering Souls, Loams, etc.

Like, if you were running a Jund build with Recurring Nightmare and Fires, I'd be sold on a few Brutalities to couple with some K. Commands.

-Matt

[Echelon]

I think Brutality is fine, but you want to leverage discarding those cards for some gain. Ex. Fires builds, Lingering Souls, Loams, etc.

Like, if you were running a Jund build with Recurring Nightmare and Fires, I'd be sold on a few Brutalities to couple with some K. Commands.

-Matt

I agree with you there, but most Junk lists typically don't run those cards (and discarding Therapy usually is something I don't want to do).

Jund is a very different beast though, there you can have the P. Fires.

Also, have you joined the discord yet?

[sdematt]

I agree with you there, but most Junk lists typically don't run those cards (and discarding Therapy usually is something I don't want to do).

Jund is a very different beast though, there you can have the P. Fires.

Also, have you joined the discord yet?

What discord? Do explain.

[Brael]

What discord? Do explain.

https://discord.gg/nQQ5V59

[Echelon]

That's why it's been so quiet here :wink:

[Mr. Safety]

I've given up on Depths for a little while and I need a new deck to dig into. Anyone playing a junk-fit list I could use for reference? I'm thinking about doing a Siege Rhino list, but anything junk colored would be great as I have the lands for it. All I need is 2x GSZ and i've got the rest.

[Echelon]

A few people have been looking at and playing with my list. Here it is:

Main (60)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Tireless Tracker
4 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Path to Exile
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library

Sideboard:
3 Duress
3 Lost Legacy
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pithing Needle
2 Golgari Charm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg

A bit unorthodox, but very well streamlined.

[Mr. Safety]

I took a shot at a list and it ended up very close. Thank you! I am definitely interested in the 4 rhino plan.

Edit: is there any merit to Sigarda, Heron's Grace? It provides hexproof and can generate tokens.

[Echelon]

I took a shot at a list and it ended up very close. Thank you! I am definitely interested in the 4 rhino plan.

Glad I could help!

[Mr. Safety]

Glad I could help!

I just need to...track down...the Tireless Trackers...but they seem pretty important. What about Ulvenwald Tracker?

[Echelon]

Nope, not what the deck wants. Feel free to try though.

[Mr. Safety]

So here is my starting list, feel free to pick it apart. I realized I don't have my Volraths Stronghold anymore, and I don't have a Phyrexian Tower. They are a little hard to come across, too.

4x Veteran Explorer
3x Deathrite shaman
4x siege rhino
1x dryad arbor
1x eternal witness
1x Courser of kruphix
1x qasali pridemage
1x gaddock teeg
1x scavenging ooze
1x meren of clan nel toth
1x sigarda, host of Herons
1x thragtusk

4x green Sun's Zenith
4x cabal therapy
1x thoughtseize
3x path to exile
2x abrupt decay
3x pernicious deed
1x sylvan library
1x vindicate
1x garruk relentless

4x verdant catacombs
3x windswept heath
1x marsh flats
1x bayou
1x Savannah
1x scrubland
3x forest
2x plains
2x swamp
1x rogue's passage
1x maze of ith

Sideboard
3x duress
2x surgical extraction
2x ethersworn canonist
2x choke
2x Bitterblossom
2x pithing needle
1x golgari charm
1x sigarda, Heron's Grace


I have the lost legacys, which seem very good against combo like storm and show/sneak. Kinda want to jam hymns but I feel like I need more dudes (trackers at least.) Also trying to figure out if Primeval Titan or Grave titan are worth slots. Prime gets the rogues passage, or the other utility lands when I get them, and grave is just a monster. Also looking at Sorin, Solemn visitor and Elspeth, Sun's Champion. Looking through the thread, all of those cards have appeared in lists. Not knowing the deck very well I'm not sure on the right configurarion. I just know I want to jam rhinos.

[sdematt]

Greetings folks,

Finally back. Exams, learning to kill a man, buying a house, and buying another car have been severely stifling my Magic creativity. I'm sorry I didn't get to see any of you at GP Seattle, but I ended up getting stranded in Vancouver at the last minute.

I think I'm officially in the "I don't get to play often, so going to play fun shit" circle since I missed the GP.

I was to play Jund Value Grind, so I'm going to run this at the next local. No, I don't want Valakut. Let's tune THIS pile with any suggestions from new sets. I'm here to win the Great Deathrite War and crush the soulless Delver pilots.

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Plague Spitter (Get fucking rekt Peezy, Elves, DnT, etc.)
1 Master of the Wild Hunt/Creakwood Liege
1 Deranged Hermit (you'll see)
1 Spiritmonger (nice 5/5)
1 Regisaur Alpha
1 Thragtusk
1 Carnage Tyrant

4 GSZ
4 Therapy
3 Punishing Fires
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Recurring Nightmare (see? valueeeeee)
2 Kolaghan's Command (valueeeeee)
2 Sylvan Library
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Painful Truths

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Volraths Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
6 Fetchies

-----BOARD-----

2 Tsabo's Web
2 Destructive Flow
3 GY Hate
1 Plague Spitter
2 Thoughtseize
2 Lost Legacy
3 Damping Sphere


-------------------------------------

All I want to do is loop things with Nightmare, make Squirrels, do silly Spiritmonger things. Fires and Scooze can handle opposing Deathrites (or Command/Decay/Deed...) so I can start working my Magic. I want to live the dream of looping Thragtusk with Deranged Hermit, to make ZombieFish irrelevant with a 9/9 Spiritmonger, etc.

Destructive Flow as the slow grind against all the decks that basically play no basics; Tsabo's Web is a better anti-Lands card. 3 more GY hate to help cover lands. Plague Spitter to pulse the board and annoy everyone. Damping Sphere to help against Storm, Elves, and Eldrazi.

[mistercakes]

i like phantom centaur over spiritmonger if you're gonna go semi-old school.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Also, Spiritmonger is a 6/6.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[mistercakes]

Yea it is a 6/6, but to what purpose is it?

Anyway, I like old janky cards like that. To each their own.

[Echelon]

@Mr. Safety: The 6-drops usually aren't necessary for Junk lists. If you do want to go for a 6-drop, just go for Carnage Tyrant. It pretty much always works and is very hard to answer. The biggest changes I'd make to your list at the moment are trimming some of the fat for either Tireless Trackers (when they stick they can easily walk away with the game) or more library manipulation, which allows you to be more versatile with your gameplan. First things to go should be Thragtusk (you really don't need it w/ 4 Rhinos), Garruk and then Vindicate.

@sdematt: You're nuts :laugh:

[sdematt]

@Mr. Safety: The 6-drops usually aren't necessary for Junk lists. If you do want to go for a 6-drop, just go for Carnage Tyrant. It pretty much always works and is very hard to answer. The biggest changes I'd make to your list at the moment are trimming some of the fat for either Tireless Trackers (when they stick they can easily walk away with the game) or more library manipulation, which allows you to be more versatile with your gameplan. First things to go should be Thragtusk (you really don't need it w/ 4 Rhinos), Garruk and then Vindicate.

@sdematt: You're nuts :laugh:

Spiritmonger is a 6/6...for now! Purpose? Fat and fun. I'd prefer a trampler, sure, but c'mon!

-Matt

[Echelon]

Spiritmonger is a 6/6...for now! Purpose? Fat and fun. I'd prefer a trampler, sure, but c'mon!

-Matt

Just join the discord dammit :laugh:

[Mr. Safety]

If ulvenwald tracker had a bff other than Phyrexian Obliterator, it would be spiritmonger. The regen is pretty sweet. I was looking at Reaper of the Wilds, but I'm already jamming 4x Rhino, which is clearly better. Not sure I want more 4 drops, the deck does want to curve out.

@Echelon: thanks! I'll leave the titans out for now. I know I need trackers, working on it. Regarding manipulation, would you suggest a 2nd library? Seems good to me. What about leyline Sigarda as a token maker?

Now for some jank: how do you feel about Profane Command? All the modes are good and it scales up the more mana I have. Nonbo with Teeg, but I'm probably going to sideboard him. Also curious about Yavimaya Elder. It's like Explorer on steroids.

[Echelon]

Library or Mirri's Guile, either works just fine. You'll want at least around 3 of those in total.

If you move to Guiles you do want to switch a Deed for a Toxic Deluge though.

I wouldn't bother with token makers, or Command. You want your threats simple and hard to kill and your interaction as cheap as possible. You're competing against 0 mana counters and other 1 mana removal, after all. And then there's mana denial to deal with. You'd be surprised how tight mana can be at times. I like my lists to be able to operate on as little mana as possible.

[Mr. Safety]

Thanks. Yav Elder?

[Echelon]

Way too slow. By the time you can put him to use, you don't really need the mana anymore. I mean, GSZ for that through Daze means you're @5 mana.

[Mr. Safety]

Good point. With all the old skool cards being tossed around, I figured I'd put that one out there too.

Is Sigarda, Heron's Grace worth it for the hexproof (sideboard)? Yes it seems slow, but I can see this happening on t4, maybe t3 with a nut draw of Explorer>Therapy. The decks that you want it against are Storm and Burn, both fairly bad matchups I would think. Rhino and Thragtusk are plenty for the burn matchup, but hexproof after a few discard spells seems like lights out against Storm.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I thought that perhaps stating Spiritmonger was a 6/6 would clarify the idea that it deals with angler cleanly and is only hit by white removal. I love Spiritmonger, reminds me of some of my early days where Anurid Brushhopper, Monger, Vindicate and Deed were all in one deck. Man I miss those days.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[Mr. Safety]

Swords vs Paths...I know Path seems ideal in a deck that is already pulling out basics with Explorer, but STP is STP. It also makes me want to splash a Kavu Predator and Grove/Fires, but that's a bit too janky, even for me...

Regardless, is Path the go-to white removal?

[Echelon]

If on Rhinos, yes. StP is top choice for Nyx Fit.

I'll get back to you on Sigarda tomorrow. On my phone atm.

[JackaBo]

If on Rhinos, yes. StP is top choice for Nyx Fit.

I'll get back to you on Sigarda tomorrow. On my phone atm.

I actually like all removal to do double duty as sac outlet in RectorFit. I also like to keep white the tertiary color in that deck, thus keeping all interactive spells black.
But absolutely, if chosing between swords and path it's swords in RectorFit

[Echelon]

Is Sigarda, Heron's Grace worth it for the hexproof (sideboard)? Yes it seems slow, but I can see this happening on t4, maybe t3 with a nut draw of Explorer>Therapy. The decks that you want it against are Storm and Burn, both fairly bad matchups I would think. Rhino and Thragtusk are plenty for the burn matchup, but hexproof after a few discard spells seems like lights out against Storm.

So, on Sigarda, Heron's Grace. B/c she doesn't get hexproof herself she's no replacement for the MD Sigarda, Host of Herons (again, you want your top end to be as hard to kill as possible). As SB hate vs. Storm it seems hardly useful. It's a 5 CMC card (or 6, as you'll likely GSZ for it), which is far too slow to deal w/ fast combo. That's why we run Lost Legacy as top end hate. If your opponent only runs Tendrils, it says "3 mana: I win the game". It's also very versatile in other bad MUs. Vs. Miracles, you can use it to strip away Jace/Terminus. Vs. Elves! it takes Craterhoof Behemoth, vs AnyShow and Tell and Reanimator it takes away whatever they have in hand that bothers you most. Otherwise, we also have access to Gaddock Teeg, Ethersworn Canonists (must-answer cards for Storm) and additional discard to help you get to the point where you can actually cast LL, Teeg & Canonist. Oh, and Surgical Extraction is pretty good too.

Junk also has a pretty good Burn MU, so no need to run stuff in your SB just for that. Besides, they generally aim to have you dead after 6/7 spells (so turn 3 or 4) which again would mean Sigarda is way too slow to make any kind of impact.

[Mr. Safety]

I think you're right on little Sigarda. I wasn't going to replace, but play it alongside the other Sigarda. The token production was really what caught my eye, but you helped me see that it isn't an overwhelm kind of deck. It plays hard-to-answer threats that go over the top of Deed and other creatures in the format.

Honestly, I'll probably just copy/paste your sideboard. I have everything in there. I really wanted to squeeze in Bitterblossom into the board, it seems very good in grindy matchups like Miracles.

[Mr. Safety]

Now hear me out with this one: Doran, the Siege Tower. I was noticing that many of my threats have a bigger toughness than power, which isn't a big deal really (the only exception being Witness.) Then I was thinking of a replacement for Thragtusk (because I was already playing 4 Rhinos.) Doran makes everything better, even Deathrite Shaman gets to attack for 2 with Doran. The final reason for Doran, and I think probably the best one, is that it makes True-Name Nemesis look utterly foolish attacking for only 1/blocking for 1 each turn. I'm pretty sure the Rhinos will trample right over that and give a big 'fuck you'. This is the kind of jank that makes me wake up in the morning. I will be trying out one as a GSZ target.

Has anybody else tried this?

[Echelon]

Cool. Board aggressively. When figuring out what to board out, think about which of your cards are easily answered by what your opponent plays (I like to board out Tireless Tracker vs. anything that runs Bolt, for instance. Fast decks "answer" slow cards like Sigarda, so board her out there) and whether or not you want to board out 1 or 3 Explorers or want to keep them all. I tend to board out 3 vs. combo decks. As for boarding stuff in, again think about what can bother your opponents' plans. Pithing Needles vs. planeswalkers or other stuff that use a lot of activated abilites (D&T comes to mind) for instance. Board in Lost Legacy whenever your opponent plays cards you really don't want to see (which is quite often, really).

[Mr. Safety]

So my board looks like this ATM (I just swapped a Golgari Charm for a Toxic Deluge.) I'll keep in mind the sideboard strategies you just mentioned as well.

3x Duress
3x Lost Legacy
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Golgari Charm
1x Toxic Deluge
2x Pithing Needle


EDIT: Wait, no Chokes? What's your take on Choke?

[Echelon]

Don't have them. Should be fine though. Wouldn't know what exchanges to make.

[Mr. Safety]

I'll probably cut 1x Duress (playing a Thoughtseize main) and maybe put a Deluge main over a Decay (2x Decay main ATM.) That opens up 2 slots for Choke.

Doran? Come on man, I can't resist...lol.

[Nargoron]

Hello everybody,
after long pause i would like to jump back to nic fit. Not really for tournament purposes, but rather for fun and playing with friends to have a break from legacy stereotyp. (Iam playing Elves for yeeears...)

I came with this list. I would like to hear your suggestions to the list.

Creature (16)
2x Deathrite Shaman
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Merciless Executioner
1x Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Siege Rhino
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
2x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Veteran Explorer

Artifact (2)
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Planeswalker (1)
1x Nissa, Vital Force

Land (20)
2x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor
3x Forest
1x Phyrexian Tower
2x Plains
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath

Enchantment (4)
2x Evolutionary Leap
2x Sylvan Library

Instant (2)
2x Abrupt Decay

Sorcery (15)
4x Cabal Therapy
1x Diabolic Intent
3x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Lingering Souls
1x Painful Truths
2x Thoughtseize
2x Toxic Deluge

Sideboard (15)
1x Abrupt Decay
2x Choke
1x Containment Priest
2x Diabolic Edict
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Orzhov Pontiff
2x Pernicious Deed
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Thoughtseize

The goal is not to be little bit independent from Veteran and be able to do something even without 5-6 manas. On the other hand i would like to stick with some spicy cards unsual in legacy.

[Echelon]

Well, the list is too low on land. You only run 19 (Dryad Arbor isn't a land for deck building purposes), you should run around 22. The Evolutionary Leaps are a poor fit for this particular type of build, you aim to gradually expand your board state, not recycle it. The lone Thalia and Merciless Executioner seem very misplaced as well. The MD Gaddock Teeg can seriously mess with your own gameplan, I think you're better off with it in your SB.

[Nargoron]

Well, the list is too low on land. You only run 19 (Dryad Arbor isn't a land for deck building purposes), you should run around 22
Agree, i forget to put Karakass and maybe add one more fetch



. The Evolutionary Leaps are a poor fit for this particular type of build, you aim to gradually expand your board state, not recycle it.
Hm, on paper it looks good. Give you another way how to sac Veteran.
Help you dig deeper for response - sac vets, tokens from Lingering souls.
Give you card advantage if opponent use removal spells
and so on. I dont know how it perfoms live. But again, seems solid to me on paper.


The lone Thalia and Merciless Executioner seem very misplaced as well
What u suggest as replacement? Maybe Eternal Witness.



The MD Gaddock Teeg can seriously mess with your own gameplan, I think you're better off with it in your SB.
There are only 3 cards in entire deck witch are anticombo with Teeg => 3x Zenith. Maindeck Teeg give you at least some chance with decks like storm. I would say its more or less call of meta.
Edit: I totaly forgot Nissa O.o

Thank you for quick response man, appreciate it! :)

[Mr. Safety]

I've been playtesting the 4Rhino list for a few games, and I have to say, it's really fun. I am still making mistakes, but for the most part I think it will pay off with practice.

How do you *not* always get Siege Rhino with GSZ? lol...

[Echelon]

What u suggest as replacement? Maybe Eternal Witness.

...

There are only 3 cards in entire deck witch are anticombo with Teeg => 3x Zenith. Maindeck Teeg give you at least some chance with decks like storm. I would say its more or less call of meta.
Edit: I totaly forgot Nissa O.o

Thank you for quick response man, appreciate it! :)

You're welcome! Well, I'd run GSZ #4 for starters. Didn't see you only ran 3. And Eternal Witness is never bad. Getting back an equipment can be pretty damn good.


I've been playtesting the 4Rhino list for a few games, and I have to say, it's really fun. I am still making mistakes, but for the most part I think it will pay off with practice.

How do you *not* always get Siege Rhino with GSZ? lol...

Quite often I find myself thinking "Well, I could go and get this, or that and then I can... Or I just start smashing face with a Siege Rhino". I started getting much better results when I figured that one out. Don't try and do anything fancy, just drop a Rhino and turn it sideways. Don't durdle, just go straight for the throat and force your opponent to deal with your gameplan instead of the other way around.

[Mr. Safety]

Quite often I find myself thinking "Well, I could go and get this, or that and then I can... Or I just start smashing face with a Siege Rhino". I started getting much better results when I figured that one out. Don't try and do anything fancy, just drop a Rhino and turn it sideways. Don't durdle, just go straight for the throat and force your opponent to deal with your gameplan instead of the other way around.

I agree! The drain is super relevant, too. My one concern, as I played against a UW Delver/Standstill brew, is that I lean on Pernicious Deed pretty hard. Therapy and Explorer do their thing and I have all the mana I need, but my opponent was pretty savvy, basically just Force-ing my Deeds (three of them, one after I witness-ed it back) and getting in over the top with Delver. I didn't have enough mana to get Sigarda, and even if I did my GSZ's were usually getting countered as well. I would bait the counters with Therapy and Deed, then try for GSZ to outmatch their Delvers.

Quick question: I brought in Teeg g2 after winning g1, to offset Force/Misdirection/Disrupting Shoal (deck was pretty sweet actually) but took it out g3, which I think is correct. Do we board in Teeg only for Combo/Miracles? Boarding it in for a tempo matchup seems kinda bad.

[Kobra_D]

Hello Everyone,

A while back I ran through about 6 weeks worth of Nic Fit variants, and while it led to some truly unwinnable piles, it was a blast.

So, like last time, if anyone has a variant they would like tested, or just a card to jam somewhere, let me know. I usually play locals on Wednesday and will update on a regular basis. This is less about playing streamlined decks, and more so about experimenting with the fun of's that never quite make lists.

[Echelon]

@Mr. Safety: No Teegs vs. Tempo

[Mr. Safety]

I figured...Thanks.

[sdematt]

I really want to try Shalai in this deck.


4 Veteran Explorer
3 DRS
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
3 Siege Rhino
1 Shalai
1 Spiritmonger
1 Thragtusk

4 GSZ
4 Therapy
3 Path to Exile
3 Decay
3/2 Deed
0/1 Toxic Deluge
2 Sylvan Library
1 Mirris Guile
0/1 Diabolic Intent
1/0 Painful Truths
2 Liliana the Last Hope

21 Lands w/ 2 Tower, 1 Taiga

//
2 Choke
2 Thoughtseize
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Damping Sphere
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Lost Legacy
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Blood Moon

Any Lands hate suggestions? Other suggestions?

Matt

[Nargoron]

Hello boys!
After some testing and reconsidering of your suggestions i changed my list little bit. And again, any input welcomed!

Creature (16)
2x Deathrite Shaman
1x Eternal Witness
1x Merciless Executioner
1x Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Recruiter of the Guard
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Siege Rhino
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
2x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Veteran Explorer

Sorcery (14)
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Lingering Souls
1x Painful Truths
2x Thoughtseize
2x Toxic Deluge

Land (21)
2x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor
3x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Phyrexian Tower
2x Plains
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath

Artifact (3)
1x Batterskull
1x Birthing Pod
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Instant (2)
2x Abrupt Decay

Enchantment (2)
2x Sylvan Library

Planeswalker (2)
2x Nissa, Vital Force

Sideboard (15)
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Choke
1x Crop Rotation
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Lost Legacy
1x Orzhov Pontiff
2x Pernicious Deed
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Swords to Plowshares


Explenation of my Thoughts
Creatures:
Deathrite Shaman - Mana acceleration, gravehate, life gainer -> thats all in 1cmc package.

Eternal Witness - Zenithable Regrowth leaving 2/1 body to carry equipment, fuel for Therapy or Pod

Merciless Executioner - It was welcomed card every game i draw him. Could help you sac Veteran to mana acceleration, Kill Merid Ledge and other anoying stuff. With Pod/REcruiter his value criticly rised up.

Meren of Clan Nel Toth - This card is just amazing, unfortunatly there are too many Deathrites shamans around. Same fate as Witness. I run just 2x deluge and 2x Decay so its not that easy get rid of DtS.

Qasali Pridemage - Some prefers Recklamation sage, i dont. Sage is dead card if you dont need his ability, Pridemage bring 2/2 body and exalted (but its nonbo with Pod-> break chain if sacrificed)

Recruiter of the Guard - Spicy card, help you find answers, especialy after SB. In main search for Witness, DtS/Veteran, Executioner, Ooze or Stoneforge.

Scavenging Ooze - Ooze is just Ooze... gravehate, lifegain, could be big

Siege Rhino - 4/5 trampler? yes please! Extra Lightning helix? Yes please!

Sigarda, Host of Herons - 5/5 finisher. She is awesome. She dont like deluge or terminuses.

Stoneforge Mystic - Stoneforge is littlebit slow, but can help you develop your board event if you dont have much mana and u r not that depended on Veteran.

Veteran Explorer - Mana acceleration. He don't like Terminus or Swords to Plowshares. So you need multiple ways ho to sac him: Phyrexian Tower, Cabal therapy, Pod, Executioner.

Sorcery:
Cabal Therapy - Discard and combo with vet

Green Sun's Zenith - next ,,3 copies" of Vet, DtS, Ooze, Pridemage, Witness, Rhino, Meren, Sigarda

Lingering Souls - This card is awesome, i love it. Excelent equipment carriers, Merid Ledge ,,mazers" or Delver killers. Answer even against sweepers with flashback.

Painful Truths - 3 mana 3 cards, loose 3 lifes. Sometimes its good, sometimes it bad. Could be 3th Lingering souls, but i'll give it a shoot.

Thoughtseize - 6 discards mainboard give you higher chances against combo decks. Protection against Couterspells for your ,,bombs". Pair with Therapy make Therapy more deadly. If u r in more fair meta then i would switch it for 2x Swords to Plowshares.

Toxic Deluge - I prefer in this lsit Deluge over Deed because of DtS, equipments, libraries... and its faster, aaand can kill griselbrand/Emrakul, Gurmag Angler/Tombstalker.

Artifacts
Batterskull - I have dilema if want to play sword of fire and ice or Batterskull. I picked Batterskull, because dont need body ready for equip on the battlefield, is superpesky for miracles, lifelink can save you against faster decks (UR delver, Burn)

Birthing Pod - More spice for our deck. I love toolkits in mtg and this can help you search bullets you need. Could be switched for Recurring nightmare if you want, but i would rather be less dependent on graveyard. Next adept could be Evolutionary leap.

Umezawa's Jitte - Typical package of Stoneforge Mystiq. Jitte can kill creatures, Jitte can boost presure, jitte can give you lives. Jitte is awesome.

Instants:
Abrupt Decay - It's a dilema if 2x swords to Plowshares or 2x Abrupts. Now i stick with abrupts. Its more universal but you lose posibility to kill Meride Ledge, Griselbrand, Gurmag and so on.

Enchantment:
Sylvan Library - If u don't run blue, its pretty hard to control your topdeck. We are running 4x vet, 3x Zenith, Recruiter, Pod, 2x SToneforge and 8x fetchland to shuffle. And against control decks card advantage is a key and you have to care about your lifes that much and go ham.

Planeswalker:
Nissa, Vital Force - I love this girl. Others Planeswalkers dont have this bomb effect when come to play. Nissa can hit your opponent for 5. Or return desperatly needed pernament from grave. It's a question if i want to play 2x 5cmc planeswalker over second 5cmc creature because of Pod where single Sigarda isn't that great. On the other hand, Nissa isn't lost on terminus or Deluge.

Sideboard
Bojuka Bog - gravehate, bullet for Crop Rotation canon

Choke - blue hate

Crop Rotation - Second Karakas, Second Bojuka Bog

Diabolic Edict - get rid of big guy

Ethersworn Canonist - hate against all fasters deck

Gaddock Teeg - Combo hate

Lost Legacy - Combo hate

Orzhov Pontiff - Bullet for Recruiter or Pod. Good against DnT, Maverick, Elves, Grixis Delver

Pernicious Deed - Sweeper for MU when Deluge is not enough

Surgical Extraction - gravehate

Swords to Plowshares - against creature decks, against Dark Depths decks





Any Lands hate suggestions? Other suggestions?

Matt

Hi Matt,
What about crop rotation? Karakas and wasteland in SB could improve your chances in land mu.
The Needle Thespian's Stage could buy you some time (until they find Krosan grip/Ancient Grudge).
Lingering Souls buy you 4 turns. I just won the game against Turbodepths. T1 blind therapy to his Hexmage, T2 Veteran and flashback Therapy to hit his zenith, T3 lingering souls + Flashback :)

[CCrazies]

Went 3-2-1 at the SCG team event with ScapeWish.

4x Veteran Explorer
2x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1x Tireless Tracker
1x Regisaur Alpha
1x Thragtusk
1x Primeval Titan
1x Carnage Tyrant
2x Nissa, Vital Force
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Pernicious Deed
2x Sylvan Library
4x Burning Wish
2x Scapeshift
2x Bayou
4x Badlands
4x Taiga
3x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Mountain
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Wooded Foothills
2x Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle

Sideboard:
1x Scapeshift
1x Thoughtseize
1x Collective Brutality
1x Lost Legacy
1x Slaughter Games
1x Innocent Blood
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Pyroclasm
1x Toxic Deluge
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Pulse of Murasa
2x Lightning Bolt

Wins:
*Storm - Died G1, as you do. Then Surgical on Tendrils G2, and Surgical on Infernal Tutor, Wish->Lost Legacy on Tendrils G3.
*Manaless Dredge - Scavenging Ooze MVP both games; was a 14/14 G1, and took over G2 to the point that the Surgical in my opener was never cast.
*Grixis Delver - Lost G1 to double Pyromancer, all the disruption. G2 actually got Explorer going, Wished for Pyroclasm to wipe the board, then eventually cleared the way for a lethal Wish->Scapeshift with a Therapy. G3 had Explorer again, and cleared the way for a Carnage Tyrant with Wish->Slaughter Games on Diabolic Edict.
Draw:
*Miracles - Only had R/B mana G1, cast Cabal Therapy and Wish (Forced) and died to Mentor. Didn't play out extra Badlands, and had opponent boarding for combo (Reanimator mostly). G2 got to Wish->Lost Legacy to take 3 Jaces, two Deeds for two Mentors, then navigated known removal so his Terminus matched up against Prime Time (getting 2 Valakuts) and I got to GSZ him right back out.
Losses:
*BUG Control - G1 Sylvan Library saw 3 lands, shuffle 3 more lands, and tied to TNN and Deathrite. G2 had him at 15 with a Library and Strix vs. Thragtusk. Drew a Decay; decided to hit Strix to get aggressive (felt like all the cantrips left him advantaged in a top-deck war - was maybe incorrect, and if he was at 16 instead of 15 might have hit Library). He drew Jace into blockers, cleared them with Deed, but couldn't quite get the Jace off the board before he fatesealed me out.
*Turbo Depths - Can't clock him fast enough before he gets around my disruption. Had Wish->Innocent Blood potentially, but he went for it end step both times. G2 Library saw 3 lands, shuffle 3 more lands.

Only the Depths games felt bad. Not sure I'd change anything with the list.

[Echelon]

2 Choke
2 Thoughtseize
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Damping Sphere
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Lost Legacy
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Blood Moon

Any Lands hate suggestions? Other suggestions?

Matt

Pithing Needle works.


Hello boys!
After some testing and reconsidering of your suggestions i changed my list little bit. And again, any input welcomed!

My suggestions are still very much the same. You're still too low on land (again, Dryad Arbor should not be counted as one), you still want to be at 2 more. I'd still cut the Executioner as any decent Lands pilot will power out Marit Lage on your end step, rendering its intended use invalid. You still want to run 4 GSZ, since consistency is key for this deck. To pile on further, Painful Truths is nowadays obsolete thanks to Tireless Tracker. And I also suggest you cut the Recruiter of the Dawn and Birthing Pod. The former is too slow and your list is not properly set up to exploit the latter while you're also in a format where Kolaghan's Command runs rampant. To round things up, you'll want to run between 4 and 6 spotremoval cards. Otherwise you just fall to the second Delver to come along.

Get your mainboard fixed, then we'll take a look at your sideboard - that also needs quite some work.

[Nargoron]

You're still too low on land (again, Dryad Arbor should not be counted as one)
On the other hand my curve is lower then is average nicfit mana curve. But I agree, add one basic could be helpful. If Veteran don't resolve, its hard to get big guys to board. 22 is too much according my testing.


I'd still cut the Executioner as any decent Lands pilot will power out Marit Lage on your end step.
The probability of killing Merit Lage is low, but not imposible if u have Lingering Souls. But that is a big IF especialy if there are just 2 in my list (I wish to be 3). But cycling Executioner every turn with Meren? Eh... its just too tempting.


You still want to run 4 GSZ, since consistency is key for this deck. Can't say anything against this.... its just true :) 8th cop of vet, 5th copy of sigarda, Rhino, Meren, Eternal Witness, Gaddock, Ooze... u r right.


To pile on further, Painful Truths is nowadays obsolete thanks to Tireless Tracker
Is Tracker really that good? I saw him in action only in turbodepth and he just created 1 clue and died. I can imagine him in maverick (obvious combo with Knight). But in nic fit i can see him only just a nice card in long run games... but this long run games are often against deck with removals and this guy die on every removal on legacy.



And I also suggest you cut the Recruiter of the Dawn and Birthing Pod. The former is too slow and your list is not properly set up to exploit the latter while you're also in a format where Kolaghan's Command runs rampant.
Kolaghan's Command is played only in czechpile/4c control (whatever u call it). And yea, you have one card to side out because is bad in this MU.
To Recruiter of the Dawn - i just love this card every single game i saw him. But I am not 100% objective (same like pod) because its just soooo much fun to play this card.



To round things up, you'll want to run between 4 and 6 spotremoval cards. Otherwise you just fall to the second Delver to come along. If i go to 4, i will have to cut Thoughtseize. It's more or less meta dependent what u face more often. 2 sword to plowshares in fair meta, 2 thoughtseize in more combo meta.

[Echelon]

If your meta is so low on fair decks that you only want to run 2 spotremoval you should really consider playing another deck entirely. Junk Fit doesn't deal with unfair decks especially well and by running so little spotremoval you've also kinda ruined your Delver/fair MUs.

Tracker is great, it's become a mainstay for a lot of lists nowadays. It's run in everything, from Junk to Jund to BUG.

On the other stuff... Look man, if you want to keep Magical Chistmas Land-ing that's fine. Just don't expect much response from the community.

[Nargoron]

If your meta is so low on fair decks that you only want to run 2 spotremoval you should really consider playing another deck entirely. Junk Fit doesn't deal with unfair decks especially well and by running so little spotremoval you've also kinda ruined your Delver/fair MUs.

Tracker is great, it's become a mainstay for a lot of lists nowadays. It's run in everything, from Junk to Jund to BUG.

On the other stuff... Look man, if you want to keep Magical Chistmas Land-ing that's fine. Just don't expect much response from the community.
The crazy nastyass honey badger, indeed :)

As i mentioned... it's not fo tournament purpouses. I play elves. This is for fun with friends.
2x removal is low, ok try to shift it little bit for 4.
Junk is much better then Jund against combo. BUG is better ofc, but i just dont like blue.
Magical landing works fine for now, if i have problems with lands, i will keep in mind your advice, thank you.

[Mr. Safety]

I've settled on a list for now, still working on getting Trackers (shop didn't have them, nobody had them for trade at a recent 70 mana event.) I was able to trade into a Sigarda though, so it wasn't a total loss. Will adjust accordingly when Tracker is obtained. My replacement for now is Doran, which is janky, but I don't see anything else really at the 3 mana slot I would want. A 2nd Witness seems *ok*, and I don't want to go Knight of the Reliquary because it creates a complete change in approach (might as well do Maverick.) Ramanup Excavator just doesn't do enough, unless it's against Lands, and nobody at the local is on Lands. Suggestions welcome for that slot. I'm also flexible on the 1x Thoughtseize maindeck; it's a concession to the random nature of the LGS, where an odd Thoughtseize sometimes helps you win against Enchantress or Bomberman. However, people with more experience with the deck could easily sway me to do something different (note: I do not own Mirri's Guile, and I have been unsuccessful in obtaining them so far.)

4x Veteran Explorer
3x Deathrite Shaman
1x Dryad Arbor
4x Siege Rhino
1x Doran, the Siege Tower
1x Eternal Witness
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1x Courser of Kruphix

4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Cabal Therapy
1x Thoughtseize
3x Path to Exile
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Vindicate
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Nissa, Vital Force
2x Sylvan Library

4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Savannah
1x Bayou
1x Scrubland
3x Forest
2x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Rogue's Passage

Sideboard
3x Duress
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Lost Legacy
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Golgari Charm
1x Toxic Deluge
2x Pithing Needle
1x Bitterblossom (could become Choke, Deluge #2, GCharm #2, LLegacy #3)


Very solid so far, with really fun games. Rogues Passage is a little iffy, might just want another Forest. Urborg has been useful. I'm a little iffy on only playing 20 lands anyways...might drop to 2 Deathrites for land 21.

[Echelon]

You could also cut either the Thoughtseize or the Vindicate to accomodate for another land. Another option would be to add the land as your 61st card.

[Mr. Safety]

I've done 61 in the past, and in a toolbox deck like this it could work. But I don't, generally, like the idea of 61 cards. I would likely drop the Thoughtsieze for the land, probably a Forest.

While I have your attention...how does Dryad Arbor work out for you? I remember from the primer that GSZ for 1 is almost always better than GSZ for Arbor t1. I have found that I have definitely wanted to save it for GSZ = 1, and my most frequent target is Explorer. It waits a turn but it gives an explosion of mana that is just the nuts. The primer also talks about Deed killing Arbor, which is relevant. The best thing I've done so far is Therapy t1, then turned a fetchland into an Arbor so I can flash it back t2 and also play a Deathrite. It's good, but it if the DRS dies I'm not getting ahead in mana like I want to. In a nutshell, I'm having a hard time figuring out how to play with Dryad Arbor.

Just some thoughts, might drop the Arbor and I wanted some experienced advice.

[Echelon]

Arbor is mostly valuable vs. fast combo decks. On the play it enables you to cast T2 Lost Legacy before your opponent is likely to kill you, which can either buy you a lot of time or just outright win the game if your opponent has been sloppy with his/her win conditions. On the draw though don't ever GSZ for it on any T1 when you could be casting discard instead.

In other MUs it's mostly a delicate precision tool. You use it to coax your opponent into wasting spotremoval or a Wasteland on it, to (surprise) fog an incoming creature (either just once or permanently, in conjunction w/ Meren of Clan Nel Toth), surprise counter check in the late game by flashing back a Therapy before casting a crucial threat (or answer) or from time to time even to turn a fetchland into exactly lethal damage (although that case is obviously very rare, but I have pulled it off a non-zero number of times). It won't ever have a huge impact on the game, but very often it does make a difference. I hope that kinda makes sense.

Yes, it sometimes dies to Deed, but that's what the deck does. You have to be willing to sever a limb to save the whole and usually blowing up Deed hurts your opponent more than it hurts you.

[Mr. Safety]

Arbor is mostly valuable vs. fast combo decks. On the play it enables you to cast T2 Lost Legacy before your opponent is likely to kill you, which can either buy you a lot of time or just outright win the game if your opponent has been sloppy with his/her win conditions. On the draw though don't ever GSZ for it on any T1 when you could be casting discard instead.

In other MUs it's mostly a delicate precision tool. You use it to coax your opponent into wasting spotremoval or a Wasteland on it, to (surprise) fog an incoming creature (either just once or permanently, in conjunction w/ Meren of Clan Nel Toth), surprise counter check in the late game by flashing back a Therapy before casting a crucial threat (or answer) or from time to time even to turn a fetchland into exactly lethal damage (although that case is obviously very rare, but I have pulled it off a non-zero number of times). It won't ever have a huge impact on the game, but very often it does make a difference. I hope that kinda makes sense.

Yes, it sometimes dies to Deed, but that's what the deck does. You have to be willing to sever a limb to save the whole and usually blowing up Deed hurts your opponent more than it hurts you.

Great points, thank you. I would have gotten there eventually, but this is a clear case where I *knew* the community could help me get there quicker.

[Echelon]

Happy to help!

[Nargoron]

I've settled on a list for now, still working on getting Trackers (shop didn't have them, nobody had them for trade at a recent 70 mana event.) I was able to trade into a Sigarda though, so it wasn't a total loss. Will adjust accordingly when Tracker is obtained. My replacement for now is Doran, which is janky, but I don't see anything else really at the 3 mana slot I would want. A 2nd Witness seems *ok*, and I don't want to go Knight of the Reliquary because it creates a complete change in approach (might as well do Maverick.) Ramanup Excavator just doesn't do enough, unless it's against Lands, and nobody at the local is on Lands. Suggestions welcome for that slot.


Hi Mr. Safety,
i would rather play
Anafenza, the Foremost
Kitchen Finks
Steel Leaf Champion (but GGG could be a problem to hardcast :( )
GL :)

[Mr. Safety]

Thanks for the suggestions. Anafenza has some decent anti-reanimator synergy, but it's waaaaay too slow. Kitchen Finks is another grindy card, but I don't think it adds anything to the deck that Doran doesn't do better (hosing True Name, blocking just about anything ground-based, making my Courser/Meren/Rhino's better.) Steel Leaf Champion is a definite no, as you say the mana cost is way too prohibitive. Doran also hits for 5 and has a better effect on the board.