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Philipp2293
11-09-2018, 08:14 AM
Went undefeated, there is no top 8 in leagues, so position 6 is just an arbitrary ranking.

Mr. Safety
11-09-2018, 08:59 AM
Went undefeated, there is no top 8 in leagues, so position 6 is just an arbitrary ranking.

Oops, thanks for the correction. Edited.

Memories of the Time
11-09-2018, 09:31 AM
Evolutionary Leap list. Cool

Agree, my favorite ones
About the list: dunno, seems many targets for me. Ground Seal maindeck is... strange, now that DRS is gone?

Echelon
11-09-2018, 01:02 PM
Plenty of Surgicals going round. The only duds in the list in my opinion are the Sandwurm Convergence and Curse of Misfortunes.

Splendor makes Convergence obsolete, Misfortunes is unnecessarily slow and risky.

Memories of the Time
11-09-2018, 01:10 PM
Plenty of Surgicals going round. The only duds in the list in my opinion are the Sandwurm Convergence and Curse of Misfortunes.

Splendor makes Convergence obsolete, Misfortunes is unnecessarily slow and risky.

For me is Reality obsolete, Convergence is a way faster clock and often a more impactful card than Reality

Echelon
11-09-2018, 01:58 PM
Cruel Reality is a hard lock once your opponent is in topdeck mode... Convergence is just a worse Splendor. As a clock it's irrelevant. Once you establish the lock you can kill your opponent with whatever.

Memories of the Time
11-09-2018, 03:00 PM
Cruel Reality is a hard lock once your opponent is in topdeck mode... Convergence is just a worse Splendor. As a clock it's irrelevant. Once you establish the lock you can kill your opponent with whatever.

For me, the last phrase is an error while discussing this deck, both IRL and MTGO due to time constraints, especially if you've lost the first game

Echelon
11-09-2018, 03:18 PM
Once you've established a lock your turns can completed in under 60 seconds...

Matsu
11-12-2018, 03:41 AM
Extracted from the big file North America Legacy Champs 2018 Coverage, Decklists, and Results....

Steven Thompson List from EW 2018 place 110

https://i.imgur.com/5nLOOsl.png

Samuel Castrucci List from EW 2018 place 39

https://i.imgur.com/21L7120.png

I hope this will help.
I am not on discord, just busy. I do not even know what discord is.

sdematt
11-12-2018, 08:12 PM
Does Nic-Fit died? :( Almost month without Your posts. No tournament reports, no techs, nothing...

Assasin's thropy placed in Abrupt's slots? Maybe You play split or other versions?

Autumn Knight is quite obvious replacemnt for sage/pridemate :)

I am going to try this list when I get back soon:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 BOP
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Knight of Autumn
1 Eternal Witness
1 Shalai
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Carnage Tyrant

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Assassin's Trophy
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Path to Exile

4 Green Suns Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Sylvan Library
1 Painful Truths
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Enlightened Tutor

Board
2 Blood Moon
2 Choke
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Slaughter Games/Lost Legacy

Matsu
11-13-2018, 07:34 AM
I am going to try this list when I get back soon:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 BOP
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Knight of Autumn
1 Eternal Witness
1 Shalai
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Carnage Tyrant

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Assassin's Trophy
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Path to Exile

4 Green Suns Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Sylvan Library
1 Painful Truths
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Enlightened Tutor

Board
2 Blood Moon
2 Choke
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Slaughter Games/Lost Legacy

I think if you are going to splash R for Blood Moon. It is better to go more 4C.

4 Veteran Explorer
2 BOP -> 1 STE + 1 Jitte/Sword/EE
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger -> 1 blood moon
1 Knight of Autumn
1 Eternal Witness
1 Shalai -> 1 Marchesa
3 Siege Rhino -> 1 Huntmaster of the wells
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons -> 1 troll Thrun /Nissa Vital Force
1 Thragtusk
1 Carnage Tyrant

3 Pernicious Deed-> 1 toxic deluge
3 Assassin's Trophy -> 1 Path to exile
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Path to Exile

4 Green Suns Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Sylvan Library
1 Painful Truths
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Enlightened Tutor

I do not like BoP, I do not think the bird is useful enough in late game. Maybe 2 STE will be beneficial in this build. The enlightened tutor gives you a lot of flexibility. You might even want a big Enchantment instead of a creature. I am not a big fun of AT, but it is more of a meta call. Delvers and Gurmags are still the best creatures in the format. I would like to see you mana base. Just for curiosity.

Mr. Safety
11-13-2018, 07:46 AM
2 BOP


I tried BOP after the DRS ban, and I *hated* them. Before I shelved the deck I only had 1 copy, then I dropped that as well. I ended up with 4x Vet and 1x Dryad Arbor for mana-ramping, and that was plenty. I ended up putting Thoughtseize into those slots, which was a lot more useful.

Arsenal
11-19-2018, 09:45 AM
Been on Arena Rector build ever since she was released, been loving it. Since GP Milwaukee was in my backyard, I played in 3 Friday events, walking away with 1.5 boxes at the end of the day. Felt pretty good about my matches, def the correct meta call as I was anticipating lots of fair and was rewarded. Skeletal Scrying has been MVP over the last couple months, I've drawn a metric ton of cards off it and has def overperformed for me.

1-2 (D&T, Red Prison, Lands)
2-0-1 (UB Shadow, Grixis Control, prize split)
2-0-1 (Oops All Spells, Enchantress, prize split)

This is what I sleeved up for all 3 events:

Main

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Arena Rector

1 Karn Liberated
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
1 Nissa, Vital Force
4 Liliana of the Veil

1 Sylvan Library
3 Pernicious Deed

2 Skeletal Scrying
2 Fatal Push
3 Assassin’s Trophy

3 Green Sun’s Zenith
3 Collective Brutality
4 Cabal Therapy

1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Marsh Flats
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Bayou
3 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs

Side

1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Choke
1 Surgical Extraction
4 Duress
4 Leyline of the Void

Prior to Arena Rector, I was on the Academy Rector build for a long time. Essentially, Arena build is much, much better at coming back from a bad boardstate whereas Academy build is better at closing out games when there is parity or you're slightly ahead. The lulz factor of Arena was too good to pass up and I don't see myself going back to Academy build unless we get another swath of busted enchantments.

Secretly.A.Bee
11-20-2018, 01:30 AM
I am having a lot of fun playing Ali Aintrazi's build from a couple months ago. It feels like it's missing something...a little card advantage, maybe. However, I'm not changing anything at the moment, since the deck runs 62 cards.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Matsu
11-29-2018, 04:32 PM
Hi all another battle report.

My list:

2x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
4x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Plains
8x Green Fetch
2x Phyrexian Tower

1x Dryad Arbor
4x Veteran Explorer
4x Academy Rector

2x Ground Seal
1x Curse of misfortune
1x Overwhelming Splendor
1x Sandwurm convergence
1x Cruel Reality
1x Dovescape
1x Curse of death’s hold
3x Evolutionary Leap
2x Sylvan Library

2x Pernicious deed
2x Abrupt decay
2x Collective Brutality
1x Diabolic edict
1x Innocent blood
4x Cabal Therapy

3x Living wish
2x GSZ

Side:
1x Carnage Tyrant
1x Thragtusk
1x Rec sage
1x Fearie Macabre
1x Eternal witness
1x Fleshbag marauder
1x Karakas
1x Surgical extraction
2x Lost legacy
2x Hallowed Moonlight
1x Massacre
1x Dread of Night

We were 19 players.
My Meta:
2x S&S (both on 2 or 3 omniscience)
2x D&T
2x Painter (Red and Grixis)
2x Reanimator (UB and RB)
1x Loam
1x Grixis control
2x Goblins (mono red)
1x infect
1x Esper Blade
1x Eternal garden
1x NicFit(me)
2x don’t remember (I think D&T and S&S)

Battle 1 (Esper blade)
I am pared against my friend Ruben who always is on Bant Blade, so I buy a pint and we play.
Game 1
He mulls to 5, I keep a 7 with GSZ, therapy and 2 Explorer.
He starts with Island +ponder.
I go CT, name Brainstorm and hit. He has no lands in hand. In the next turn, I go GSZ for Arbor and Explorer (do not sac for value). Turn 3 beat down and another explorer. I put him on 10 with my 3 creatures drawing only lands for multiple turns. He finally plays a TNN and starts to attack, I put him on 5 he kills my explorer and ramp. I swing again he goes to 4 and fetch. I put him on 2 and play Academy rector. He surrenders. Explorer 10+ dmg in one game achievement unlocked.
Game 2
He has the nuts. I have no disruption and slowly ramp. He double thoughseize me, then SFM into batterskull, he naturally draws his equipments, I surrender to Batterskull equipped with Jitte and Sofia.
Game 3
I go turn 1 GSZ for arbor. turn 2 CT + 1dmg+ land. Turn 3 academy rector into Curse of misfortune. Fetch a cruel reality first. After taking 5 from my curse and drawing a land without creatures and cantrips, he surrenders.
1-0

Battle 2 (UB Reanimator)
A new person, I do not know him (Mark)
Game 1
He goes island + ponder. My turn 1 I lead with bayou + CT on BS, hit. I see what he is playing, he has a slow hand with no protection, so I cast Ground Seal to lock his GY in turn 2. We keep playing. I finally draw a rector and curse him. 3 turns later he surrenders to cruel reality, Splendor and curse of death.
Deck check. He is a little bit tilted after seeing ground seal main. So I go for a pint and he goes for a smoke to relax a little.
Game 2
He starts with careful study. I try turn 2 Brutality and meet a FoW. He plays his 2nd land and exhume Iona naming Green. He finishes me in 3 turns.
Game 3
I go turn 1 explorer. He ponders, I fetch a savannah and leave mana open. He plays Careful study reanimate ashen rider, in response I cast hallowed moonlight. He reads the card. All spectators laugh at my fringe deck. Next turn I draw Evo Leap and combo at the end of his turn into Rector. Curse of misfortune him next turn. He tries to cantrip into echoing truth. I Living wish for Big Dino. He extends the hand.
I was very happy to see the non glass canon Reanimator again, some fresh air.
2-0

Battle 3 (S&S)
I do not go for a third pint because I am on diet, so I become I little bit grumpy. Last time I played against Tim, he was extremely tilted, because when we have played in march I think, I won the blind therapy contest and unlocked the achievement: Blind Cabal Therapy of the year 2018. (I turn 1 blind CT name BS and hit 3 copies on the play against unknown opponent). So he is here to take a revenge.
Game 1
Turn 1 he ponders, I play a land and pass. My turn 2 brutality meets a Fow, he plays 3 BS, then Sneak attack Grizzly and Emi the following turn.
Game 2
I resolve a rector and fetch the Wurm Machine to lock his flyers. Next turn he Show & Tell into Omniscience and Cunning wish for a burn spell for 20. GG. He took his revenge.
I do not know how to play and win against this match up. I probably could go for Dovescape in the last game, but with all the cantrips he might kill me faster with birds.
2-1

Battle 4 (RB Reanimator)
I do not know Connor, nice guy, first time playing a legacy tourney.
We roll dice.
Game 1
He goes first -> badlands, dark rit, entomb, exhume sire of sanity.
Game 2
I manage to go bayou + explorer. He unmask his Elesh Norn and animated dead him. Cool, I ramp with my dead explorer. I cast diabolic edict in my turn, he Exhume again, I ramp more. Next turn I naturally draw academy rector and throw her under Elesh Norn -2/-2, curse him. I survive at 5 life.
Game 3
He plays a land, pass. Great I am alive, so bayou into CT, he responds with entomb for sire of sanity. I name reanimate, so if he is stuck with one land I can survive another turn. He show me a hand of land, exhume, animated dead.
Another difficult match up. I had in my hand a land and hallowed moonlight to punish him, I just needed another turn. No luck against combo.
I am sad and go for a pint, fuck the diet.
2-2

Battle 5 (D&T)
New guy he started playing 6 month ago, I see him the first time. I was off because family stuff.
Game 1
He does the D&T stuff. Turn 1 Cavern into vial. Turn 2 Port and Mom from vial. Turn 3 Thalia from vial and Pro G/B dude. I draw blanks. I surrender before he realize I can combo.
Game 2
I stabilize at 7 life after resolving a pernicious deed, then rector fetch Cruel reality and next turn. I living wish into Big Dino.
Game 3
I have the nuts and explorer + Evo leap. I have all my basics on turn 3 and hard cast the Wurm machine and massacre his board. Next turn Rector fetch the curse of death, which is enough to close the game with wurms.
3-2

I am 9th on tie breakers and miss top 8. Overall the deck is still very powerful.
I played three terrible match ups and lost 2 of them so it was expected. My meta is weird and very combo oriented.
Collective brutality is very versatile and I recommend to try it. I should go back to drink a pint each round.
I am not a big fan of Ass trophy. I play AD as a secure kill.
I was tempted to build a PW rector deck, but I will not play it in my meta. After a couple of tests it is definitely very stronk against fair and control decks, super grindy. I might try the mixed version Classic WBG with 3 arena rector instead of Rhino and 2 or 3 PW. I will probably play 4CT, 3 Brutality and a IoK/thoughseize in the main to combat combo. This Friday I will have a break from NicFit for the first time in 2 years and I will play Punishing Maverick at an FNM, just to see how it feels in the meta. Then I go back to NicFit. I would like to build SneakFit, but still missing the key card and Emi. So probably after Xmas.

Any question I will be happy to answer.

square_two
11-29-2018, 04:55 PM
I do not know how to play and win against this match up. I probably could go for Dovescape in the last game, but with all the cantrips he might kill me faster with birds.

Nicely done :)

Dovescape is imo way better than people give it credit for. You are afraid of dying to opp spending 1 card to get 1 bird? At least that's what typical cantrip is going to be. Even FoW is effectively 1 card = 2.5 birds (5/2 cards) Meanwhile you have an abundance of cards that turn into multiple birds. Find one GSZ and suddenly you can match whatever they have been spending multiple turns to produce. Even Decay is effectively 3 birds since you get 2 and can still destroy one of theirs.

IMO I like your list but would still advise someone running it to slim further on enchantments and be able to have either more interaction or Lingering Souls. (Souls value shoots up with Dovescape). Then again I've never tried the Living Wish version. Seemed like it only was used to grab Carnage in that run?

Matsu
11-30-2018, 03:33 AM
Nicely done :)

Dovescape is imo way better than people give it credit for. You are afraid of dying to opp spending 1 card to get 1 bird? At least that's what typical cantrip is going to be. Even FoW is effectively 1 card = 2.5 birds (5/2 cards) Meanwhile you have an abundance of cards that turn into multiple birds. Find one GSZ and suddenly you can match whatever they have been spending multiple turns to produce. Even Decay is effectively 3 birds since you get 2 and can still destroy one of theirs.

Yes, after I was writing this report I have realise that Dovescape will be game winning in this case. So it was a punt from my part. But the match up is still very difficult. It is possible to win against a resolved Emi or Grizzlybrand from S&T, but not against Omniscience.



IMO I like your list but would still advise someone running it to slim further on enchantments and be able to have either more interaction or Lingering Souls. (Souls value shoots up with Dovescape). Then again I've never tried the Living Wish version. Seemed like it only was used to grab Carnage in that run?

So I was on the Lingering souls plan before i tried Living wish. Souls are great as a fodder for Evo Leap, but i think the card is better against a fair metagame. You can have 2 blockers turn 2/3 and you can feed CT if needed. So it is great against any D&T, Delver, Blades, Stompy. I think I prefer Living wish in my metagame so i can turn 2 go for a Karakas, Fearie macabre, Marauder or Rec sage. And hope to survive a turn. It is still 3 copies of each of your sideboard crit/land in the main. I was testing a version with Thespian stage + crop rotation main and living wish for Dark depths but it is too clunky.

On the other side in late game Lingering Souls is only 4 power. When with Living wish you can slam Big Dino or trade Thrugtusk to Zombie fish which is 10 life. So it is a better top deck late game. Unfortunately in the whole tourny i was able to draw it twice always in late game. And the Big Dino was the needed nail in the coffin so it has worked very well for me.

After playing AcademyFit and testing ArenaFit. I think both decks are great and have a good potential, but something is missing to move the deck to a more competitive level. I dont know exactly what, but probably a lock piece for the Curse version or a spell to slow the opponent more. Overall i think both decks have great core and in the future maybe in 2 or 3 sets some cards might elevate the deck to a new level.
We just have to observe what is around. With the BS quantity at 50% i will not be surprise if WotC finally make a move here.

Btw, collective brutality is an amazing card. Very versatile.

Listlik
12-25-2018, 02:40 AM
I have choosen Nic Fict to be my second competitive deck in the format (and, yeah, i understand all the problems of the deck but i really like strong BGx Midrange decks in any format) and have some questions. I have stoped on classic BG version for some reasons. Well.

1) How divide your removal options correctly? Is decay still good or outclassed by trophy? How many deeds do we need to play? Currently i am using 2 decays, 1 trophy, 1 edict and 3 pernicious deeds.

2) Is wasteland playable in this deck or ghost quarter is absolutely better option?

3) Is new Vraska, golgari queen good planeswalker for Nic Fit? Now i am playing lili the last hope (tremendously love her) and Nissa, vital force (flex slot?).

Echelon
12-25-2018, 03:18 PM
@Listlik: You might want to join the Nic Fit Discord channel.

As for questions 2 and 3 - Neither Wasteland or GQ are suitable Nic Fit cards. Neither is the new Vraska.

Secretly.A.Bee
12-25-2018, 09:32 PM
Neither is the new Vraska.

Please expand on this.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Echelon
12-25-2018, 11:35 PM
Please expand on this.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

It eats your means to pressure your opponent, i.e. undoes your gameplan

battousai555
12-30-2018, 02:09 PM
I've seen the new Vraska in Arena Fit and it seems like it's decent. It's a sac outlet for Vet and Rector and kills some things, and is easy to cast.

sdematt
12-30-2018, 09:23 PM
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Dryad Arbor
1 BOP
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Knight of Autumn
1 Eternal Witness
1 Shalai
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Wilt-Leaf Liege
1 Thragtusk


3 Pernicious Deed
3 Assassin's Trophy
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Path to Exile

4 Green Suns Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sylvan Library
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Enlightened Tutor

Board
2 Blood Moon
2 Choke
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution

I'll be piloting this monstrosity for the next bit to see how the format is. I read your kind suggestions, and I'll give this a shot.

Echelon
01-01-2019, 12:41 AM
Switch out the Liege for an Archon of Valor's Reach. It's crazy good.

Captain Hammer
01-03-2019, 03:42 PM
So they went and put Birthing Pod on a creature that can be Green Sun Zenithed for...

https://i.redd.it/yjs1xsu8a9821.jpg

I will be trying this come Feb...


1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
2 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Baleful Strix
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Elderscale Wurm
1 Progenitus

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Assassin's Trophy
3 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm

kinda
01-03-2019, 05:21 PM
So they went and put Birthing Pod on a creature...

https://i.redd.it/yjs1xsu8a9821.jpg

I will be trying this come Feb...


1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
2 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Baleful Strix
2 Noble Hierarch
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Elderscale Wurm
1 Progenitus

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Assassin's Trophy
3 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm

I’d cut progenitus for terrastodon. The sb needs a lot of combo hate...fow/teeg/ruric thar come to mind.

sdematt
01-04-2019, 01:15 AM
What about just cutting NO here?

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
2 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
21

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Baleful Strix
2 Noble Hierarch
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2 Prime Speaker
1 Thragtusk
1 Carnage Tyrant
1 Grave Titan
20

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Assassin's Trophy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm

Captain Hammer
01-05-2019, 10:56 AM
What about just cutting NO here?

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
2 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
21

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Baleful Strix
2 Noble Hierarch
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2 Prime Speaker
1 Thragtusk
1 Carnage Tyrant
1 Grave Titan
20

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Assassin's Trophy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm

There is no need for 2 Prime Speaker. It’s only advantage over Pod is that it can grabbed with a GSZ. So 1 is enough. The second one should be a Pod imo.

Not sold on Carnage Tyrant or Garuuk Relentless (what purpose does it serve?)

But I absolutely love the inclusion of Thragatusk and Grave Titan.

Cards with good ETB or leave the battlefield effects make the most sense to abuse with Primespeaker.

Veteran Explorer, Baleful Strix, Reclamarion Sage/Eternal Witness/Renegade Rallier/Kitchen Finks and Thratusk are perfect in that regard. Is there anything similar at 4cc? If so, I would slot it in place of Garruck Relentless.

Also maybe a light white splash so we could play the improved Reclamation Sage, and the situationally stronger Eternal Witness (Renegade Rallier) makes sense, since Noble Hierarch makes white anyway.

Edit: Birthing Pod + White means that Academy Rector/Arena Rector is a must play, would slot in at 4cc perfectly. The deck should play 3 Pod, 1 Prime Speaker to grab with GSZ, both Rectors and a bomb enchantment and 1 Jace and 1 Ugin Planeswalker.

Echelon
01-05-2019, 11:26 AM
It's 2 to 3 turns slower (GSZ and/or summoning sickness) than actual Pod and can be Fatal Pushed and Karakas'd. Should be a solid no-go.

It's more cute than good.

Brael
01-05-2019, 03:21 PM
It's 2 to 3 turns slower (GSZ and/or summoning sickness) than actual Pod and can be Fatal Pushed and Karakas'd. Should be a solid no-go.

It's more cute than good.

I'm not so sure. Being a creature definitely comes with a few drawbacks, but it has some benefits as well.

First, it's blue, which dramatically increases it's usefulness in a Pod deck as you can more likely enable FoW.
Second, creatures have a bit more interaction as you can use cards like Melira for recursion.
Third, while forcing blue would normally be a drawback, BUG pod seems to be the most value oriented already, so it's probably not that bad.
Fourth, you can turn GSZ into finding both early Vets and this creature.
Fifth, it dodges more counterspells, such as getting around Spell Pierce.

That said, it does have considerable drawbacks as well. It's a turn slower due to the mana cost, it's vulnerable to Karakas, it's a turn slower due to summoning sickness, it's vulnerable to many more removal spells than Pod is once it resolves, and you can't string multiples together. But, I would argue the GSZ tutor being a turn slower is not a drawback, because any tutor for Pod (which has more limited options) slow you by a turn as well.

I think the Karakas issue is the only issue that's really worth bringing up, unfortunately it is also a big one. It's not Legacy playable, though it might be modern playable.

fonzdizon
01-11-2019, 11:40 PM
Hi I was wondering if someone could send me an invite to the Nic Fit discord my SN is the same as it is here.

Brael
01-12-2019, 12:48 AM
https://discord.gg/nQQ5V59

That's a link for the server which shouldn't expire.

kombatkiwi
01-19-2019, 08:59 AM
59 cards

3 Birthing Pod

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Plaguecrafter
1 Plague Mare
2 Spellseeker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Ravenous Chupacabra
1 The Scarab God
1 Ishkanah, Grafwidow

1 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Assassin's Trophy
1 Counterspell (if UU is too hard to get reliably then Negate instead)

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Thoughtseize

1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
(20 land + arbor)

Last card is probably either 3rd Spellseeker, 21st land, or 1 more tutorable spell (2nd Thoughtseize maybe).
Not sure how important Chupacabra and Phantasmal Image are

Sideboard:
1 Life Goes On
1 Pull from Tomorrow
1 Black Sun's Zenith
1 Sinkhole
X Surgical Extraction
etc (Loam? Flusterstorm?)

No idea how good this is/isn't but it seems like a good shell for Birthing Pod. Spellseeker gives the deck a lot of utility (e.g. you don't need to use a slot on Rec Sage when you can Spellseeker for Trophy/Decay, maybe this is also why Chupacabra can be replaced).

Scarab God OP, can be protected from Swords to Plowshares by:
- Sacrifice to Phyrexian Tower
- Revive Plaguecrafter and sacrifice TSG
- Revive Phantasmal Image to copy TSG and then legend rule the real one
- Spellseeker -> Counterspell

The Pod chain of Spellseeker (find Counterspell) -> Meren and using Counterspell to protect Meren seems good vs fair decks
Vs combo you have Spellseeker (Counterspell/Thoughtseize/Therapy) -> Glen Elendra.

You don't need to play a card like Pull from Tomorrow or Skeletal Scrying (or even like, Night's Whisper) maindeck because if you want to Spellseeker for a value spell you can get GSZ for Ishkanah/Witness/Meren.

I welcome suggestions for different Spellseeker/Pod targets but this seems okay as a starting point

pettdan
01-19-2019, 09:38 AM
Seems pretty sweet, Kombatkiwi. I have a basically standard comment, for me. I'd change Veteran no 4 into GSZ no 2, because veteran is a lousy late-game topdeck, especially if you don't have a Pod around, and there are many matchups in which you don't want to ramp your opponent (usually Miracles and Grixis Control, though this depends on the exact scenario). While GSZ is one of the best consistency tools available, offering ramp or threat depending on what you need.

Captain Hammer
01-29-2019, 06:15 PM
I'm not so sure. Being a creature definitely comes with a few drawbacks, but it has some benefits as well.

First, it's blue, which dramatically increases it's usefulness in a Pod deck as you can more likely enable FoW.
Second, creatures have a bit more interaction as you can use cards like Melira for recursion.
Third, while forcing blue would normally be a drawback, BUG pod seems to be the most value oriented already, so it's probably not that bad.
Fourth, you can turn GSZ into finding both early Vets and this creature.
Fifth, it dodges more counterspells, such as getting around Spell Pierce.

That said, it does have considerable drawbacks as well. It's a turn slower due to the mana cost, it's vulnerable to Karakas, it's a turn slower due to summoning sickness, it's vulnerable to many more removal spells than Pod is once it resolves, and you can't string multiples together. But, I would argue the GSZ tutor being a turn slower is not a drawback, because any tutor for Pod (which has more limited options) slow you by a turn as well.

I think the Karakas issue is the only issue that's really worth bringing up, unfortunately it is also a big one. It's not Legacy playable, though it might be modern playable.

Watched quite a few modern decks featuring Vannifar. The decks all pretty much win the moment they untapped with Vannifar on the back of Woodland Bellower combo. Pod couldn’t insta win like that. Vannifar is a surprisingly solid win condition. Might end up getting a deck built around it rather than incorporating it into Nic Fit but I think it will likely have an impact on legacy.

MD.Ghost
01-30-2019, 06:31 AM
@kombatkiwi:

I played BUG Pod in the good old days (in fact i never sold FoW etc cause of it^^) and enjoyed your list at first test games. Some small adjustments so far:

// 60 Maindeck

// 2 Artifact
2 Birthing Pod

// 21 Creature
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Veteran Explorer
4 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Plaguecrafter
1 Plague Mare
2 Spellseeker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 The Scarab God
1 Ishkanah, Grafwidow
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Prime Speaker Vannifar

// 6 Instant
4 Brainstorm
2 Assassin's Trophy

// 20 Land
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest

// 11 Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Collective Brutality
2 Ponder
1 Toxic Deluge

// 15 Sideboard
// 5 Creature
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 Shriekmaw
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre

// 8 Instant
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 3 Force of Will
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Echoing Truth

// 2 Sorcery
SB: 2 Thoughtseize

I added Collective Brutality since its a very flexible card and i dont want to throw AT at early creatures to ramp opponent and getting discard-hand information is nice too (Therapy/Game plan etc.). I also valued the tutorable Toxic Deluge over your single Counterspell, since this version lack good old deeds so far. I go down to 2 Pod + 1 Vannifar (+2 Zenith) one is enough once you developed the board and survived long enough.

Sideboard is a bit random at the moment but covers combo matchups well and uses more spells on the back of spellseeker.

kombatkiwi
01-30-2019, 11:30 PM
I played BUG Pod in the good old days (in fact i never sold FoW etc cause of it^^) and enjoyed your list at first test games. Some small adjustments so far:

Hi, thanks a lot for trying it


I added Collective Brutality since its a very flexible card and i dont want to throw AT at early creatures to ramp opponent and getting discard-hand information is nice too (Therapy/Game plan etc.).
The extra discard-hand information is why I played the 1 maindeck Thoughtseize (I also considered 1 maindeck Surgical) but I agree that Collective Brutality could also perform this role while being a more flexible card in more situations, I think this is a good idea.


I also valued the tutorable Toxic Deluge over your single Counterspell, since this version lack good old deeds so far.
Remember Deluge is not tutorable by Spellseeker because you can only get spells with CMC 2 or less (this is why originally I suggested 1 Black Sun Zenith in the SB, of course it's not as good as Deluge but seemed like the best CMC <3 option)

Do you think Redcap is better than Hostage Taker / Sower of Temptation / Chupacabra? Redcap is funny with Scarab God because you can deal 4 but I feel like these other creatures are going to be better most of the time. Edit: Deck might want 1 Leovold maybe

Matsu
02-27-2019, 04:37 AM
Hi all another battle report.

My list:

2x Bayou
2x Savannah
2x Scrubland
2x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Plains
8x Green Fetch
1x Phyrexian Tower

1x Dryad Arbor

4x Veteran Explorer
1x Sakura Tribe Elder
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Tireless Tracker
1x Siege Rhino
1x Meren
1x Thragtusk
1x Dromoka
1x Carnage Tyrant

1x Sylvan Library
3x Pernicious deed

2x Abrupt decay
2x Collective Brutality
2x Diabolic edict
2x Duress
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Path to exile
4x GSZ

1x Nissa, Vital Force
1x Kaya, Ghost Assassin

Side:

1x Rec sage
4x Fearie Macabre
2x Tomod’s crypt
1x Surgical extraction
1x Massacre
1x Golgari Charm
1x Engineered Plague
1x Dread of Night
2x Choke
1x ???

I did a little bit of intel before the tournament and was informed there will be a lot of Reanimator and Ape&Show decks.

Round1.
I play against Adam, he is always on 4c Loam. So I expect a lot of grind, CotV on 1. I have to find PDeed as soon as possible.
Game 1
I keep a hand with GSZ, CT, Kaya, 3 lands, PtE
He wins the Die roll and goes Polluted Delta->Watery Grave-> Thougtseize. That is not 4c Loam. We laugh a little bit. He takes Kaya.
He eventually plays a Zombie fish and a delver, I path the Z-Fish. He manage to play 2 other delvers (no Flip) I hard cast Dromoka. We go to game two.
Game 2 I side in 2 Choke remove Kaya and Duress I think.
He cantrips a lot in the first 3 turns, I just slowly ramp.
He plays a Shadow, I AD it. He slams a Delver. I path it. He reanimates Zombie Fish I manage to discard.. He goes to 4. Next turn I play Nissa and start to attack. He top deck a land and surrender.
Game over.
1:0
That is nice after not playing since November.

Round 2
I play against an unknown player. He is on Burn.
Game 1
I lose it to double Fireblast.
Game 2 side 3 Explorer out and put Golgari Charm, rec sage, …
I manage to slow him down playing Ooze so he waste a bolt on it.
I to play Tireless tracker and one counter. He has pyrostatic pilar and plays Eidolon and suspend a rift bolt
I draw a fetch land and grow Tracker. Make him 6/5 swing not block. He goes to 4. Rift bolt resolve and he dies.
Game 3
I ramp with Explorer and CT. Plays a Scooze. He bolts it, this gives me one extra turn.
Over the next 5 turn he burns me to the ground.
I play 10 spells that gives me life. No luck this time.
1:1

Round 3
Against another unknown player. Brandon the judge says to my opponent that I am playing his favourite deck. My opponent looks at me confused.
Game 1
I win the die roll and have a good hand 2 lands, duress, explorer, CT, kaya and something.
I go catacombs->Bayou-> Duress he is on UB Shadow.
Take one of his 2 Thoughtseize, he has a Street wrath, Shadow, daze, FoW and a fetch. He goes Polluted Delta->Watery Grave-> Thoughtseize take Kaya.
What is wrong with people I wanted to play her and she lands in the bin the first turn.
We laugh a little as he mention he loves NicFit just not competitive enough. He is a player who goes to all those big fancy tournaments like GP, Protour, etc…
Next turn I go CT his daze, ramp, Nissa and finish the game quickly.
Game 2
Same sideboard as round 1
I manage to GSZ for Explorer and block his turn 3 Zombie fish. He plays a Delver. I cast Dromoka. He flips his delver and swing with Fish and Insect. I block the flyer, he cast a Dismember. Bye Bye Dragon. He has no cards in hand. I top deck a GSZ, after some calc, I summon Meren. She reanimate to my hand Dromoka and dies to fish. Next turn the Dragon returns. He surrender. Showing me a Watery grave in his hand. He is at 8, I am above 10 and he does not have cards to remove Dromoka in his deck.
2:1

Round 4
Again unknown player.
Game 1
He wins the die roll. I keep a good hand with 2 lands CT and GSZ.
He goes petal-> Badlands-> Entomb (Sire of Sanity)-> reanimate. I pick my sideboard and start shuffling my deck. I side in 7 cards. Macabre, Crypt and Surgical.
Remove 3x P-Deed, Dromoka, Tyrant, Nissa and Kaya.
Game 2
I have Faerie in my hand and Duress. 2 lands. I have enough disruption to stop his first revenant, Thragtusk finish the game.
Game 3
I start with Faerie, Path, fetch, Surgical Extraction, Explorer, CB. He faithless looting turn one and pass. I draw a dryad and plays it. I start the beatdown with Explorer and DA. He unmask me and take Surgical extraction. Eventually go to 4 lands and GSZ for Tracker. CT my explorer and tracker becomes unstoppable.
3:1

I take a second place and receive a booster of the new master set. My 10 month daughter opens the pack with my wife and I end with a Booster fresh Karn Liberated and a foil Sleight of Hand.
Looks like it is time to build NicFit with Arena rector.

Thanks for reading, if you have any question I will be happy to answer.

joaquin
02-27-2019, 06:11 AM
Dude congrats on the 3-1 and good pack luck!
I actually frequent this thread a lot because I really wanna build this deck, so anytime someone does well with it it pushes me a little closer to making the deck haha.

I was gonna ask if there was a reason you run rec sage over knight of autumn? And also have you ever wanted a singleton rec sage or knight type effect in the mainboard or do you usually feel like the 1 in the side is fine?

Matsu
02-27-2019, 06:56 AM
Dude congrats on the 3-1 and good pack luck!
I actually frequent this thread a lot because I really wanna build this deck, so anytime someone does well with it it pushes me a little closer to making the deck haha.

I was gonna ask if there was a reason you run rec sage over knight of autumn? And also have you ever wanted a singleton rec sage or knight type effect in the mainboard or do you usually feel like the 1 in the side is fine?

The reason is simple, I did not have time to check what cards i need from those new sets. So yes Rec Sage can be Knight of Autumn if you play W in your deck. I dont have KoA and 4x AT.

The rest is, tune your deck to your metagame. My store has a lot of Reanimator and Ape&Show. So i really dont need a rec sage effect main. By the time i GSZ for it Animate dead did his job same with Onmiscience and Sneak Attack. Knight of Autumn is more flexible, so yes i should play it main. But Rec sage is sufficient from the sideboard.

If i play a Classic NicFit version of the deck i try to build my deck the way i can always GSZ for something: 2x 2cmc, 2x3cmc, 2x4cmc, 2x5cmc, 2x6 cmc. You can always trim the high curve, but then you move to a more midrange deck with . 4x Siege rhino + Meren and as a top end for example Sigarda. This force you to be more aggressive slamming creature after creature, with a higher curve you can be more passive and reactive and try to play a game of protect the queen.

It depends on your play style and metagame. I like playing Big Monster and sometimes i even play one single 7cmc as the final nail in the coffin. Your opponents face when you tap 7 mana for a Big Monster priceless especially against fair decks like D&T, Goblins, Delver, Blade etc...

Now with Karn on board i will try an Arena build and see how it works.

Echelon
02-27-2019, 07:23 AM
Yeah, the list is a bit dated.

The only 6-drop you should be running nowadays is Archon of Valor's Reach. It's pretty much invalidated all other 6-drops.

Another thing is that you might want to run more Mirri's Guile/Sylvan Library type cards. Consistency is one of the most important parts of any good list, and that's simply how you achieve it. It might ask you to swap out a Pernicious Deed for a Toxic Deluge though.

@joaquin: There is a Nic Fit discord you could join if you'd like

Purple Blood
02-28-2019, 05:45 PM
Did you guy's see this bad boy?

https://i.imgur.com/SUfetZC.png

Going to be in the new direct to Modern set.

Also, could someone share me the discord? I tried to use some of the links in the thread but they seem expired.

tescrin
02-28-2019, 07:34 PM
Yeah, the list is a bit dated.
The only 6-drop you should be running nowadays is Archon of Valor's Reach. It's pretty much invalidated all other 6-drops.


I don't know; I always liked PrimeTime. I often ran some man-lands so he was like a poor-man's Grave Titan but tutorable (and his gribblies survived terminus/deed.) The other neat thing was just getting your deck basically emptied out of lands so you only drew gas. Between fetches, Vet, and PT you could easily get your deck down to just a couple lands left. Below that Sigarda usually locked things up pretty good against most decks.

Maybe that's more of a Jund thing. Makes me want to build that all the sudden. PT getting all your red mana for PFireing stuff; too cool 4 sckool.

Echelon
03-01-2019, 12:58 AM
I imagine the Cabal Therapist won't be an actual card. It's a little bit too much on the nose. I guess April fools is coming up again.

Purple Blood
03-01-2019, 11:10 AM
I imagine the Cabal Therapist won't be an actual card. It's a little bit too much on the nose. I guess April fools is coming up again.

Yeah...I didn't full consider the implications of that timing restriction. Makes it kind of meh for this deck. It can still be a decent card for Mardu Pyromancer in Modern I think.

Brael
03-01-2019, 07:38 PM
Yeah...I didn't full consider the implications of that timing restriction. Makes it kind of meh for this deck. It can still be a decent card for Mardu Pyromancer in Modern I think.

It's not very good for that either. A new deck that can use it might spring up (especially in combination with that black tutor that was printed recently), but assuming you want to continue to use it turn after turn, you can't actually activate it until turn 3. Cast on 1 means it can only sac itself on 2 (there's only 1 1 mana flash creature, and it's awful), which means you won't have multiple creatures at the start of a pre combat main phase until turn 3.

In a deck like Pyromancer, not only does casting this mean you're not casting a spell, but using it doesn't trigger more tokens. Also, it means you go T1 this, T2 pyromancer, and that's still at best a T3 activation (assuming you have an instant to cast). Worse yet, such a curve means it's a blind activation as you won't have an opportunity in there to cast a targeted discard spell.

Purple Blood
03-01-2019, 07:44 PM
It's not very good for that either. A new deck that can use it might spring up (especially in combination with that black tutor that was printed recently), but assuming you want to continue to use it turn after turn, you can't actually activate it until turn 3. Cast on 1 means it can only sac itself on 2 (there's only 1 1 mana flash creature, and it's awful), which means you won't have multiple creatures at the start of a pre combat main phase until turn 3.

In a deck like Pyromancer, not only does casting this mean you're not casting a spell, but using it doesn't trigger more tokens. Also, it means you go T1 this, T2 pyromancer, and that's still at best a T3 activation (assuming you have an instant to cast). Worse yet, such a curve means it's a blind activation as you won't have an opportunity in there to cast a targeted discard spell.

I wouldn't really play it on curve. At some point you can use a one mana discard then at some point later have this guy out and start saccing Pyro tokens, Lingering Soul tokens, or things like Stitcher's supplier. You can toss Angler, Phoenix, and Reveler in that deck and you have a decent plan.

Ralf
03-19-2019, 02:49 PM
Hello,

I played a Legacy tournament this week-end and finished 1st with the following list which is almost the same I used a couple of months ago when I finished 13th during MKM Paris.

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=21401&f=LE

You can find the previous report here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31293-Primer-Nic-Fit&p=1055819&viewfull=1#post1055819)

The only changes I made are the following:
-1 Forest
-1 Swamp
-1 Ishkanah
-1 Grim Flayer
-1 Carnage Tyrant
+1 Savannah
+1 Underground Sea
+1 Leovold
+1 Mystic Enforcer
+1 Archon of Valor


The list:

3 Swamp
4 Forest
4 Verdant
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Underground Sea
1 Polluted Delta
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bojuka bog
1 Ghost quarter
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Fierce Empath
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Mystic Enforcer
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Massacre Wurm
1 Archon of Valor's Reach

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Crop rotation
1 To the Slaughter

1 Pernicious Deed

1 Nissa, Vital Force

Sideboard

2 Lost Legacy
2 Surgical
2 Golgari Charm
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Sylvan Library
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Duress
1 Knight of Autumn
1 Massacre
1 Assassin's Trophy

So it was a 45 players tournament.
6 swiss rounds + top 8.

Quick summary:

R1 - Burn -> 2/1
R2 - DelverBlade -> 2/1
R3 - U/R Delver with Ptera -> 2/0
R4 - Slow Depths -> 2/1
R5 - Turbo Depths ->0/2
R6 - ID into top 8
R7 - BR Rea -> 2/0
R8 - D&T ->2/0
R9 - Slow Depths (R4) ->2/1

Regards,

Ralf

joaquin
03-19-2019, 07:34 PM
Congrats Ralf!

Could you explain why you felt the need for the white and blue splash for archon and leovold?
And more importantly why mystic enforcer is in the deck now? haha

I like your version of nic fit so much and every time I see it I wanna start building it. Any extra info you could provide about the deck would be appreciated.

pettdan
03-20-2019, 05:03 AM
Very nice to hear, congratulations Ralf! Winning a tournament that size with Nic Fit is not a common feat. And your list is like always an interesting take. I've liked the land package before, played it in Cloudpost Fit, and am currently playing a Hymn version, mixing them seems like a good idea..

Matsu
03-20-2019, 06:16 AM
.

Quick summary:

R1 - Burn -> 2/1
R2 - DelverBlade -> 2/1
R3 - U/R Delver with Ptera -> 2/0
R4 - Slow Depths -> 2/1
R5 - Turbo Depths ->0/2
R6 - ID into top 8
R7 - BR Rea -> 2/0
R8 - D&T ->2/0
R9 - Slow Depths (R5) ->2/1

Regards,

Ralf

Hi Ralf,

Just a couple of questions concerning your deck build.
1. Was Leovold worth to play?
2. Mystic Enforcer, ahh great memories, Was it only to combat Zombie fish+Shadow, why not Rhino/Meren?
3. How excavator performed with 1x GQuarter and 7x Fetch?
4. Was Fierce empath useful?
5. Sylvan Library in the sideboard looks weird to me, can you explain this choice?
6. How was your match up against Depth/Reanimator, do you find Crop rotation for Karakas sufficient?

Thank you, good job.

Ralf
03-20-2019, 07:41 AM
Congrats Ralf!

Could you explain why you felt the need for the white and blue splash for archon and leovold?
And more importantly why mystic enforcer is in the deck now? haha

I like your version of nic fit so much and every time I see it I wanna start building it. Any extra info you could provide about the deck would be appreciated.

Hello Joaquin,

MKM Paris was a very good test for the initial list. It helped me a lot identifying which creature' singleton had earned its slot or not.


1) Grim Flayer

I was happy with Grim Flayer against the Elves' MU, but not so happy against grixis control. I'm not saying Grim was faulty in this MU but I had the feeling that I needed another creature against blue based control deck. One that is really annoying.

Leovold seems like to fit the bill. It annoys control and combo decks (based on cantrips and CA) while providing a "not so bad" clock. So I thought I should give him a GO instead of Grim Flayer just to gather more "data".


2) Carnage Tyrant

During MKM Paris, Tyrant was never game breaker. It is just a vanilla beater with hexproof/trample. It is not bad but not very good either because each time I ended up casting it I was on the defense side and couldn't really take advantage of its attacking power. So I challenged its slot and pondered between playing Grave Titan or Archon.
I went with Archon because it acts like another "lock" pieces while being able to smash faces and defend your guts at the same time (vigilance is a very very nice ability and one that was missing in the tool box)


3) Ishkanah

I'm a very very big fan of that spider. It was in the initial list to have a GSZ out to flying creature while giving an edge against sacrifice effect (LoTV, diabolic edict etc...) and a wincon when the board is stuck. Eventually, tests proved me that it is a little bit too much on the "cute" side. So I have decided to try "Mystic Enforcer" in its place. The condition is almost the same and it can block flying creature like a boss. The added "Black Pro" is ice on the cake when Depths deck are hyped...
Threshold is not "easy" to achieve, I won't lie but so was the "delirium". Grim Flayer was really nice when threshold conditions are to be met.

Anyway, black is everywhere and between Hymn and TS, your oppo is definitely helping you getting the few missing cards for the threshold.


4) Knight of Autumn

That card justifies by itself the need for a white splash as it is just plain better than Rec. Sage. It also freed up a slot in the SB (no more need for a Thragtusk when you have a mean to win life in the MUs where it matters)


Eventually the two splashes were easy task:
-1 forest for 1 savannah
-1 swamp for 1 underground sea

I don't see any issue going for a scrubland and a tropical island if you want (but I'll be honest I haven't think through too much about that)

Regards,

Ralf

Ralf
03-20-2019, 07:44 AM
Very nice to hear, congratulations Ralf! Winning a tournament that size with Nic Fit is not a common feat. And your list is like always an interesting take. I've liked the land package before, played it in Cloudpost Fit, and am currently playing a Hymn version, mixing them seems like a good idea..

Thanks for the greetings and yes it was a tough battle to get there I won't lie. No MUs were a piece of cake but this is what you get when you play Nic Fit. You have the tools to beat every deck but you have to make the perfect decisions at all time.

Ralf
03-20-2019, 10:58 AM
Hi Ralf,

Just a couple of questions concerning your deck build.
1. Was Leovold worth to play?
2. Mystic Enforcer, ahh great memories, Was it only to combat Zombie fish+Shadow, why not Rhino/Meren?
3. How excavator performed with 1x GQuarter and 7x Fetch?
4. Was Fierce empath useful?
5. Sylvan Library in the sideboard looks weird to me, can you explain this choice?
6. How was your match up against Depth/Reanimator, do you find Crop rotation for Karakas sufficient?

Thank you, good job.

Thank you.

1) Cannot answer yet. Leo didn't show up very often and I didn't face any MUs in which it is supposed to shine. Will need more data to draw any conclusion. It was sworded against D&T and that was the only MU I saw him (I've never GSZ for it during the other MU)

2) Mystic is to have a GSZ out to flying beast while being a f.cking wall to Daddy Grisel and Marit the B. Ofc, not caring about the fish and strixes is an "all star" addition.

3) Excavator. The more I play him the more I like him. It is an edge vs wasteland decks while also providing you the option to play a land a turn without accelerating your opponent (stoneblade, miracle, control) with veteran. It saved me against D&T (this week end) and he synergized with Courser and Tracker in almost every other MUs. And once you see how he is broken against eldrazi and big eldrazi with a crop into GC, I cannot imagine not having him in my 75.

7 fetch = 75% odds to see one in the first 3 turns if you kept an opening 7 cards hand. Almost 80 % if you consider that you'll start abusing Excavator the very next turn you play it. And if you GSZ for it, the odds are even higher (because it won't be turn 3 nor turn 4 but as early as turn 5 to start abusing it). I'm not taking into account calculations with a triggered veteran here (which has no sense at all except the fact that you could gsz for excavator turns earlier). I'm fine with those odds and I'm not counting the 2 crop in these calculations (above 85% if you consider it).

4) Empath. It is worth ? I dunno. During MKM Paris he proved to be an all star when you can follow it up with Massacre Wurm. This is our most reliable way to get that beast into play when we need it and this -2/-2 effect + lifeloss is NO JOKE at all. Not so much during this tournament but well you know it is a toolbox deck...

5) Sylvan is usually for control/combo and STP decks. Having another CA engine that you can abuse when life total doesn't matter much is important. To be honest it came in against most opponents (even Tempo/Burn) to at least give you potential quality draws. One could argue I should be playing it MD but I don't have the space at the moment.

6) I was lucky with crop rotation. I won G1 against BR because I kept an opening hand with a crop and he got blown by it; he didn't have a discard spell (I didn't know what I was facing). Post side against rea, I felt "OKish". You'll always be too weak against grave strategies that have the nuts (T0->BOUM) but past a certain number of gravehates, you end up hindering other MUs. I have accepted to lose some games against grave strategies where they have the nuts. Just keep hands that at least give you an Ooze by T3 (if it doesn't contains a real counter measure).
15 sideboard cards is not a lot and we have so many decks to battle...

In the final, G2 and G3 were won because of crop rotation. G2 -> into Karakas and G3 -> into GC because he had a safekeeper that would disrupt the karakas plan. I have already expressed as much as I could about playing 2 crop in Nic Fit as being a mandatory move (but you'll need to dig this very thread a bit).
2 is for me the better number as with 3 you end up making too much CDA against control deck but with less than 2 you end up not seeing it enough to sustain the 4 utility land slots I'm playing (Bojuka, Karakas, GC, Tower).

By the way, GC could be a wasteland.

Ralf

StoneforgeMystic
04-03-2019, 10:07 AM
Hey everyone I've been playing nic fit for a while, but haven't played in too many tournaments in the past year. I usually play the rhino fit version of the deck and was wondering about two things:
1. Is thoughtseize or hymn to tourach is better in this variant of the deck?
2. How good is the archon?
Any help would be appreciated as I prepare for a decent size legacy tournament in a couple of weeks.

Echelon
04-04-2019, 03:21 AM
The Archon is the best top end you can run.

Hymn is strong but risky. Thoughtseize is always useful.

There's also a Nic Fit discord, if you're interested.

StoneforgeMystic
04-04-2019, 06:58 AM
I would definitely join the discord!!
I will have to get some reps in with archon to see how strong it truly is.

Echelon
04-04-2019, 07:08 AM
I would definitely join the discord!!
I will have to get some reps in with archon to see how strong it truly is.

Here you go:

https://discord.gg/GRQWGk

It's valid for the day.

Brael
04-04-2019, 11:02 AM
Here you go:

https://discord.gg/GRQWGk

It's valid for the day.

Actually, we have a link that never expires:

https://discord.gg/aSYstjY

Brael
04-04-2019, 11:05 AM
Hello,

I played a Legacy tournament this week-end and finished 1st with the following list which is almost the same I used a couple of months ago when I finished 13th during MKM Paris.


Been out of the Legacy scene for a few weeks now since there's very little local opportunity to play and I've been too busy to travel.

Did you find the 4th color splash to be much of an issue?

Koplinchen
04-04-2019, 12:08 PM
Hey everyone I've been playing nic fit for a while, but haven't played in too many tournaments in the past year. I usually play the rhino fit version of the deck and was wondering about two things:
1. Is thoughtseize or hymn to tourach is better in this variant of the deck?
2. How good is the archon?
Any help would be appreciated as I prepare for a decent size legacy tournament in a couple of weeks.

Try this. It has been very good to me. If you have any questions ask. Good luck!

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Eternal Witness
2 Tracker
2 Knight of Autumn
2 Siege Rhino
1 Meren
1 Thragtusk (we dont need big end really)

4 Cabal Therapy
4 GSZ
3 Path
4 Assassins Trophy
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Sylvan Library
2 Deed
1 Kaya, Ghost Assasssin
1 Nissa, Vital Force

4 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswepth Heath
2 Marsh Flats

Side:
3 Surgical
3 Thoughtseize (I think Hymn is too greedy)
2 Choke
2 Containment Priest
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Painful Truth

Ralf
04-05-2019, 07:10 AM
Been out of the Legacy scene for a few weeks now since there's very little local opportunity to play and I've been too busy to travel.

Did you find the 4th color splash to be much of an issue?

No. I wouldn't say it is irrelevant (it took me several turns to cast Leo against D&T but that was because he kept porting my Underground...)
Let's be honest 80 to 90% of the time you will GSZ for the relevant threats without worrying about color issue.
The deck is a true golgari one.

StoneforgeMystic
04-09-2019, 11:38 AM
So I played a league last night on mtgo and ended up going 2-3 with it. Here is my list:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
2 Tireless Tracker(felt too slow)
1 Knight of Autumn
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons(She felt underwhelming last night is there a better 5 drop)
1 Archon of Valor's Reach

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Thoughtseize
2 Path to Exile
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Night's Whisper
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Kaya, Ghost Assassin(never saw)
1 Nissa, Vital Force(both times I played her they had removal to deal with the lands I made 5/5s)

4 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath


Side:
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize
1 Path to Exile
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sylvan Library
1 Golgari Charm
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Knight of Autumn
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

R1: UR Phoenix(1-2)
Games were pretty close I mulled to four game 3 which was rough.
Is it better to name faithless looting over ponder/manamorphose in this matchup?

R2: UW Miracles(0-2)
Game one I stripped their hand, but they top decked like a boss two STP and a snap which made my Nissa sad.
Game two I got hard controlled out of the game.
I named accumulated knowledge against them. Or should I be naming a threat card instead?

R3: Sneak/Show(2-1)
Games one and three I stripped their hand and rode a cannonist to victory in game three. Game two I got omniscience emrakul killed.

R4: UW Blade(0-2)
This was more of the midrange version of the deck.
Game one TNN just annihilated me, I didnt see a P. Deed or deluge. Game two the game went long enough where they kept bouncing the batterskull and found a TNN and rode it to victory.

R5: Painter Servant(2-0)
Game one I got timely knight of autumn or I would have lost to the combo. Game two I stripped their hand and had a scavenging ooze to eat their combo pieces as I slowly dismantled their hand with thoughtseizes and therapies.

Thoughts about the deck. I felt overall it played similar to how it had a year ago. I had a decent amount of game where I felt like I had lots of disruptions and little threats. There was also games where I had to mull to 4 or 5 and then just did nothing. I felt knight of autumn was better than tracker last night, but Im wondering if it is because of the decks I played against. Also thinking I need chokes in the sideboard, last time I played I feel like I didn't lose that hard to UW.

Any thoughts or help would be appreciated.

Captain Hammer
04-09-2019, 12:27 PM
Neoform was recently spoiled.

Rector Fit should LOVE Neoform.

Turn 1 Veteran Explorer, Turn 2 Neoform to search out the single copy of Incubation Druid from your library saccing explorer generates 8 mana on turn 3 that can be used to hardcast any of the giant spells that Rector Fit has in hand (Turn 3 Ugin, Overwhelming Splendor, Sandwurm Convergence, Nicol Bolas etc is game over).

Not bad for a 2 card combo where both cards synergize super well with the rest of the deck.

Neoform for example doubles as another way to sac a Rector and gets you a 6/4 Tragtusk to boot.

Neoforming any random creature also doubles as an additional shuffle effect for brainstorm which most blue splashes of Nic Fit already run.

Echelon
04-10-2019, 12:58 AM
@CaptainHammer: No, it's cute at best. Not worth the slots.

@SFM: When running Archon as topend Thragtusk is the prefered 5-drop. The ADs should really be Assassin's Trophies, and I see you run 0 Mirri's Guile/Sylvan Library. You should aim to run around 3. They give you some much needed consistency. Maelstrom Pulse doesn't have a place in the deck anymore. It's outclassed by Assassin's Trophy. As for your SB, PtE and Deed are wasted slots. They're mostly good vs. decks you're already favored against, so why waste the space on that? If you want to run some sort of spotremoval just run more Assassin's Trophies. Answers everything from lockpieces and equipment to planeswalkers to opposing Overwhelming Splendors and whatnot. Heck, they even do some work vs. Lands. KoA you already run MD, so you don't need a 2nd. Redundant copies of KoA in your SB should be ATs (if you're not already at 4). Garruk, Primal Hunter is too colour intensive so I'd swap that out for a different walker. The Sylvan Library should be a MD deck, and the Spellbomb should be something different as well. SB cards to look at are more discard and Lost Legacy. LL does a crapton of work across a lot of bad MUs. From ANT/TES to Reanimator to S&S to Miracles. I hope this helps!

Also, I could send you an invite to the Nic Fit discord if you're interested. It's pretty active and there should always be someone around to help you with your builds. Edit: Never mind, you're already in there :laugh:

Memories of the Time
04-10-2019, 03:28 AM
@captain hammer: i was saying similar things on discord. I think that a rector build that can play cantrips and blue is better than one that doesn't, and i fear that 4 color are too much without bop/mox ecc.

Ralf
04-10-2019, 04:34 AM
@CaptainHammer: No, it's cute at best. Not worth the slots.

@SFM: When running Archon as topend Thragtusk is the prefered 5-drop. The ADs should really be Assassin's Trophies, and I see you run 0 Mirri's Guile/Sylvan Library. You should aim to run around 3. They give you some much needed consistency. Maelstrom Pulse doesn't have a place in the deck anymore. It's outclassed by Assassin's Trophy. As for your SB, PtE and Deed are wasted slots. They're mostly good vs. decks you're already favored against, so why waste the space on that? If you want to run some sort of spotremoval just run more Assassin's Trophies. Answers everything from lockpieces and equipment to planeswalkers to opposing Overwhelming Splendors and whatnot. Heck, they even do some work vs. Lands. KoA you already run MD, so you don't need a 2nd. Redundant copies of KoA in your SB should be ATs (if you're not already at 4). Garruk, Primal Hunter is too colour intensive so I'd swap that out for a different walker. The Sylvan Library should be a MD deck, and the Spellbomb should be something different as well. SB cards to look at are more discard and Lost Legacy. LL does a crapton of work across a lot of bad MUs. From ANT/TES to Reanimator to S&S to Miracles. I hope this helps!

Also, I could send you an invite to the Nic Fit discord if you're interested. It's pretty active and there should always be someone around to help you with your builds. Edit: Never mind, you're already in there :laugh:


I still beg to differ.

Since DRS is gone, most manabases are playing basics. Trophy is a very fine card but AD is still better IMHO.
Nic Fit is a deck where you build incremental CA. So that giving an opponent a basic land in the early stage of a game is just nailing your own coffin.

There is a reason why STP is played over PTE and as long as Tempo, counterbalance and permission exists, I'm afraid, AD > Trophy.
Many games, veteran doesn't die in the early stage of the game but many games we need to decay something in the first 3 or 4 turns...
Not to mention that Trophy cannot be used to kill our own veteran and sometimes when everything seems lost, you know...

Finally playing Trophy over Maelstrom Pulse is a good question.
Trophy is far better in a vacuum as it gets to hit more permanents than Pulse. It is more mana efficient and can be played as an instant BUT Trophy will never ever grant you CA.
Again, as I believe Nic Fit is a control deck by nature, we should not aim for too many 1 for 1 card so that when you have packed 4 Decay, there is little room MD for another spot removal.

I have often hit 2 permanents with Pulse because the odds you have it mid/late game are vastly superior than having it early game, so are your odds of making CA with Pulse.

So I guess it is more of a personal choice (and I will gadly reckon I/we need more data to take a "final" stand on this question if it can be solved).

My two cents,

Ralf

Bobmans
04-12-2019, 11:56 AM
My two cents,

Ralf

Are you currently at Ghent already? Btw, just played 1-2 drop in trail 1 today with Jund NicFit (with Light up the Stage)

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Ralf
04-12-2019, 12:12 PM
Are you currently at Ghent already? Btw, just played 1-2 drop in trail 1 today with Jund NicFit (with Light up the Stage)

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G960F met Tapatalk

No. This is unfortunate but as a family man I have to select the very few tournaments, I can attend to, very "wisely".

It should be better in a couple of years when they are older :p

Have fun and I hope you'll shine for the community !

Regards,

Ralf

Bobmans
04-15-2019, 04:45 AM
Yesterday on MKM Gent I played a 8 rector list for the full 9 rounds to a devastating 3-6. The good news is that with some other players Rector (most focus on Arena) was recognised as an entity to name in the meta breakdown.

On overall the list was a lot of times 1 play or turn away from winning. Most match loses where 1-2. The deck is good, but just 1 tech/card/turn away from being broken.

For reference i did not play Euraka. Instead i played 3 Lingering Souls and 2 Evo Leap. And Living Wish offc.

Cheershttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190415/374367a3cab569480e031b0685fcd914.jpg

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Koplinchen
04-19-2019, 04:00 AM
Hello everybody!

Aftef I came back from Gent I finally sat down to write a bit about the tournament where I finished 7-2 with my Junk Nic Fit. It was a great tournament and I am happy I didnt play Miracles (although they are a better deck) and decided to play something thats just more fun and plus points are when you can surprise your opponent.

3explorer
1satyr wayfinder
1ooze
1teeg
1knight of autumn
2tracker
1witness
2stoneforge mystic
1meren
1thragtusk
4zenith
18

4therapy
4trophy
3stp
1deluge
2deed
3library
1batterskull
1kaya, ghost assassin
1nissa, vital force
20
38

4verdant catacombs
4windswept heath
1marsh flats
4forest
2swamp
1plains
2bayou
1scrubland
1savannah
1karakas
1phyrexian tower
22lands
60maindeck

Sideboard:
3seize
3surgical
3choke
2containment
2canonist
1deluge
1pithing needle
15 side

With help of my friend Marcus I changed a few things and added Stoneforge Mystic as a nice T2 play+helps our survival. As late game we go over any other deck - lets get there. So I cut Rhinos I had there before as they were unimpressive and it only helps against delver for one turn. In this case Paths were not justifiable and we can finally kill opponents creatures t1 without regret with stp.
I think we want 4 Trophy as we are a control deck and why not to play card that kills almost everything? I think we want at least 1 deed 1 toxic. The split makes it much harder to play around then playing just one.
I think deck like this competing against jace wants walkers. I chose two that are the strongest I think. Nissa is obvious. Against control decks you plus her, protect her and dont be greedy and just minus her. Miracles, Grixis just cant compete with that emblem. Kaya is more tricky but she can help you against control with making the card difference 2. She can blink Thragtusk or Witness. Discard last cards of a combo player, gain life against burn. I really like her.
I also think playing less then 3 Libraires is not right. The card is bonkers. We have a lot of lifegain which means free cards. It ensures we draw the right answers against aggro and that we can draw extra against control. We will prevent us from drawing basics or equiupment when we dont want to. And after board agianst mircles you go discard, library, choke, walker... They will have a hard time!
A weird card is Satyr Wayfinder. I wanted something instead of the 4th Veteran. Often I was on 3 mana with double zenith and had not other lands, didnt want to go Veteran or I couldnt and ooze without open mana or teeg blocking your zenith is not amazing. I am thinking of Wall of Blossoms, Sakura but the appeal of Wayfinder is that it gets me a landrop, can sac it to therpay wihtout regret and can help me to find therapy, milling unwanted top from library. creates graveyard for witness and meren. let me know what do you think.
Side is straingforward - 3 Thoughtseize, 3 Surgical, 2 canonist against combo. 2 priest againt sneak mainly. 3 choke against the menace (miracles) - they almost cant with in it on table. 1 needle was a great addition against mainly jace, stage, inkmoth and so on.

R1 bye
R2 Stoneblade - you just loose g1 most of the time. After board and missing landrop I came back with needle - fow, trophy - fow, trophy! He is beating me with Clique and Skull. In the last round I blindtherapy his last card - Caster and carried away I Therapy Skull (I think I can flashback therapy if he returns it but he has an active mystic and my skull cant block...) Stupid! 0-2
R3 Deathshadow - he dosent really know what is he doing but on the draw I am facing t2 wright+shadow... G2 is very similar. I think its insane matchup for us but I never saw zenith or veteran... 0-2
R4 junk with confis. We go much bigger in one game he threw it all at me and I had not sweeper. He last card was stp for my Tracker which could turn it around (I had a lot of mana and 4 clues) The other two games I did what I am supposed to. 2-1
R5 elvers. G1 I stabilized with Teeg, Tracker, Therapies. I Therapied him at some point - only Order with 5 elves in play. I diddnt flashback - I have time. He ripped Karakas off the top! and killed me. Amazing. Next games I was deluging, containing him and got to two victories. 2-1
R6 UR tempo. Not the best player but we had great games. He almost got me in two postbardgames with Winter Orb but I had Deed or Autumn ready. Last game he was attacking with TNN against my six life with two bolts on top. I deede my own board put him with Tusk to 3 so next turn he had to bolt him attacking instead of my face. Meren sealed it. 2-1
R7 Czech Pile. I got beaten but he didnt want to play so he scooped. first game I got tripple hymned plus fow my library. After board I think its very good but his only postboard goyf got there as I couldn get blockers.
R8 Miracles. Lost game one as usual. G2 he mulled to 5 keeping no lander. G3 I was in contorl whole game as I htoughtseized him and he had terminuses, stp, no cantrip, balance was missing and I could play around what he had. Nissa ultimate made me sometimes discard to handsize eot twice.
R9 Final game for money! (I missed money by two places) Against UB tempo. I won first he won second. In the final I had witness to bring back stp. Chump angler. Meren bring back witness, he edicts it. play witness bring back meren play it. I was drawing 5 lands in six turns but still managed to stabilize against his two anglers, delver, blossom with this combo+withness brought back Batterskull so I could gain some life back. Karakas looking after Meren so doesent get Pushed unfortunately. Epic game!

I really like the list. It bricks lesss then any other list that I ever played and you are not afraid of any matchup. I would like to know what do you think about it!

bruizar
04-20-2019, 04:44 AM
Nissa who shakes the world will end up in nicfit, pretty sure about that.

Echelon
04-20-2019, 01:26 PM
I'm not sure that it will. The deck doesn't need the extra mana anymore when she hits the field and Nissa Vital Force is a better answer to Jace.

Koplinchen
04-21-2019, 03:18 AM
I'm not sure that it will. The deck doesn't need the extra mana anymore when she hits the field and Nissa Vital Force is a better answer to Jace.

Agreed. Nissa, Vital Force is the best Nissa for us. All abilities are very relevant. Extra mana of the new Nissa is irrelevant, its + ability doesent kill jace.


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bruizar
04-21-2019, 10:35 AM
Nissa Who Shakes the World is much more impactful than Nissa Vital Force if you ask me. Its +1 ability is permanent, unlike Vital Force which lasts for one turn. This means you can't build up an army of 3/3's. It also means that it is a perfectly fine answer to Jace. If you untap with Nissa and you have a Green Sun Zenith in hand, you can directly put any card in play (Progenitus, Woodfall Primus, Terastodont, or whatever other bomb you can think of in green.). If that fails, you still have the ultimate, which spits out all forests/duals from your deck and makes your lands indestructible. Not just the ones you animate, but also dryad arbor. It is a lot more impactful than Vital Force's draw. Drawing into a land card with Vital Force is a lot worst than having put all the lands into play and just drawing the relevant spell in the first place..

Echelon
04-21-2019, 03:22 PM
I'm afraid the Nic Fit Discord disagrees bud. New Nissa got received with a resounding "Meh"

bruizar
04-21-2019, 06:33 PM
I'm afraid the Nic Fit Discord disagrees bud. New Nissa got received with a resounding "Meh"
Well, the. NIcfit community is generally not representative for competitive players anyway, so ill take that with a grain of salt.

Echelon
04-21-2019, 11:57 PM
You do you man. Have fun on that high horse of yours.

UnOrthodox Bird
04-27-2019, 12:15 AM
I am not a fan of Nissa, Who Shakes the World. She does nothing with basic swamps or your B/x duals in whatever variant you play. Her 3/3 lands don't trade favorably with most of the format's threats like Batterskull, True-Name, Gurmag Angler, making them piss poor blockers and not a threat until 3-4 turns in which you've made your manabase open to removal. Nissa Vital Force's -3 is relevant and having access to the -6 if you untap with Nissa Vital Force just seems better. Why you would replace her with a walker that makes mediocre threats and doubles your forest mana in a deck that doesn't really hurt for mana is beyond me.

Also, I'll agree with the last post. You seem to be on a pretty high horse, especially since a large part of the Nic Fit discord community is people who love the deck and probably have a large amount of insight into how it works and what cards appear to be just mediocre. Why come to a Nic Fit thread posting ideas if "the. NIcfit community is generally not representative for competitive players anyway". Seems like a waste of your time then mate.

grokh
04-29-2019, 07:24 AM
Hi,

What about this new card :

https://img.scryfall.com/cards/large/front/b/e/be8ec9e1-2c8e-496d-9111-4d453b75b578.jpg?1555740727


Against D&T, Elfball, Goblins, Stoneblade maybe ?

Koplinchen
04-29-2019, 11:02 AM
Sweet card but at 5 mana its too slow.


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Matsu
04-30-2019, 03:12 AM
@Bruizar

I hope you are not trolling

Unfortunately we did not get anything good from WotS. Unless the metagame will change significantly.
Concerning the new Nissa. In Nic Fit if you want to play a 5 mana green planeswalker. You play Nissa VF main, if you really want to add another PW you add another Nissa VF. The other viable Green 5 mana PW will be Garruk Primal Hunter in my opinion or if you want to play a pet card, spice up the deck. .
I do not see any other G 5 mana PW worth playing atm.

@grokh

I think if you really have a problem with D&T, Goblins, Elf. It is better to play Massacre Wurm. At least when you hard cast it you win the game on the spot. But Pernicious deed main deck should be sufficient to slow/kill your opponent.

Echelon
04-30-2019, 09:04 AM
Not being GSZ'able is a deal breaker for Massacre Girl. You don't want non-tutorable creatures, we're not playing EDH

Mr. Safety
04-30-2019, 09:51 AM
There have been non-tutorable creatures before though, I mean wasn't Grave Titan pretty absurd at one time? Massacre Girl I don't think is worth it, but going one mana further to Massacre Wurm seems worth the investment against tribal decks. It hits for 6 and you get a drain 2 for every creature that gets wiped. It's not as efficient as Deluge or even Deed, but the payoff seems pretty good.

square_two
04-30-2019, 10:15 AM
There have been non-tutorable creatures before though, I mean wasn't Grave Titan pretty absurd at one time? Massacre Girl I don't think is worth it, but going one mana further to Massacre Wurm seems worth the investment against tribal decks. It hits for 6 and you get a drain 2 for every creature that gets wiped. It's not as efficient as Deluge or even Deed, but the payoff seems pretty good.

Actually think I might prefer the Girl to the Wurm. Against Elves, DnT, and a pile of Emptied goblins...that one mana can mean the difference between getting the effect in play vs dying from the opp's next turn. 5 to 6 mana is a large jump, and 5 is the sweet spot of t1 Vet, t2 Tower sac him -> 5 mana. Wurm doesn't kill x/3's, but Girl has the potential to wipe them out. Interaction against Mentor is kind of nice - no matter how many spells are played in response, and even if they STP her in response, the ETB still happens and kills the monks off one by one (as far as I understand it...although they could...stp one of their existing tokens?).

It's certainly a very niche role though, and most lists shouldn't be really caring to play either in their 75. Between Deluge/Deed/Golgari Charm things should be covered. Sneak Attack lists with Fierce Empath can get away with a Wurm (fits nicely there). Perhaps GB lists might care for the effect, but hey it isn't tutorable so eh.

I'm not impressed with new Nissa at all.

Mr. Safety
04-30-2019, 04:10 PM
Actually think I might prefer the Girl to the Wurm. Against Elves, DnT, and a pile of Emptied goblins...that one mana can mean the difference between getting the effect in play vs dying from the opp's next turn. 5 to 6 mana is a large jump, and 5 is the sweet spot of t1 Vet, t2 Tower sac him -> 5 mana. Wurm doesn't kill x/3's, but Girl has the potential to wipe them out. Interaction against Mentor is kind of nice - no matter how many spells are played in response, and even if they STP her in response, the ETB still happens and kills the monks off one by one (as far as I understand it...although they could...stp one of their existing tokens?).

It's certainly a very niche role though, and most lists shouldn't be really caring to play either in their 75. Between Deluge/Deed/Golgari Charm things should be covered. Sneak Attack lists with Fierce Empath can get away with a Wurm (fits nicely there). Perhaps GB lists might care for the effect, but hey it isn't tutorable so eh.

I'm not impressed with new Nissa at all.

Good points, but I would argue that Massacre Wurm also brings a couple serious upsides: draining for 4-8 and trading with Gurmag Angler. The -2 also conveniently kills flipped Delvers. That extra mana is big, for sure, but Girl's added -1/-1 is based on creatures dying. If creatures are already out of range they won't get more than -1/-1. Cue the 'whomp whomp' sound effect. I still think Deluge/Deed/Charm are the best answers, but if you're in the market for a big threat that really swings games while also dealing with a problem, Massacre Wurm, in my opinion, can do that better than Girl. Ideally it's a way to add redundancy; you'll want the Deluge/Deed/Charm early already, but having a backup Wurm if they rebuild seems like just the thing to tip the scales. That 5 mana on t2 we all want also does Deed plus crack for 2, which is still the better way to go.

Massacre Wurm might be 'win more', but I'll be damned if it isn't a powerful thing to be doing. Massacre Girl is just not big enough to matter as an actual threat.

Ralf
04-30-2019, 05:42 PM
Good points, but I would argue that Massacre Wurm also brings a couple serious upsides: draining for 4-8 and trading with Gurmag Angler. The -2 also conveniently kills flipped Delvers. That extra mana is big, for sure, but Girl's added -1/-1 is based on creatures dying. If creatures are already out of range they won't get more than -1/-1. Cue the 'whomp whomp' sound effect. I still think Deluge/Deed/Charm are the best answers, but if you're in the market for a big threat that really swings games while also dealing with a problem, Massacre Wurm, in my opinion, can do that better than Girl. Ideally it's a way to add redundancy; you'll want the Deluge/Deed/Charm early already, but having a backup Wurm if they rebuild seems like just the thing to tip the scales. That 5 mana on t2 we all want also does Deed plus crack for 2, which is still the better way to go.

Massacre Wurm might be 'win more', but I'll be damned if it isn't a powerful thing to be doing. Massacre Girl is just not big enough to matter as an actual threat.

Since I'm the one using it at the moment let me share a few more things.
Wurm is easier to play as a 1-of than the new threat because you can fetch it with empath. So when it matters you have a reliable way to get it.
To be able to do so with the new card you'll have to include the new GSZ which in the end will be detrimental to the whole deck.
Wurm also won't wipe the board on your end which might be important.
And finally as you said, the ping ability is very very important especially in a control deck such as Nic Fit where being able to finish off your opponent in a timely fashion is key.

My two cents.

Ralf

Mr. Safety
04-30-2019, 05:56 PM
Since I'm the one using it at the moment let me share a few more things.
Wurm is easier to play as a 1-of than the new threat because you can fetch it with empath. So when it matters you have a reliable way to get it.
To be able to do so with the new card you'll have to include the new GSZ which in the end will be detrimental to the whole deck.
Wurm also won't wipe the board on your end which might be important.
And finally as you said, the ping ability is very very important especially in a control deck such as Nic Fit where being able to finish off your opponent in a timely fashion is key.

My two cents.

Ralf

Ahhh, the ol' Zenith into Fierce Empath into Massacre Wurm line. Awesome!

Koplinchen
05-01-2019, 04:21 AM
Which is totaly enough and not slow against elves and goblins. :D

I think we should stay with toxic and deed and zenith for witness to recycle it.


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Mr. Safety
05-01-2019, 09:28 AM
Which is totaly enough and not slow against elves and goblins. :D

I think we should stay with toxic and deed and zenith for witness to recycle it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

:tongue: It's not for the first wave, it's for the 2nd wave!

I digress, and I do agree that Eternal Witness is definitely a better strategy in general. I always had a Witness and a maindeck Nissa VF (which could buy back Deeds as well.)

bruizar
05-01-2019, 02:52 PM
@Bruizar

I hope you are not trolling

Unfortunately we did not get anything good from WotS. Unless the metagame will change significantly.
Concerning the new Nissa. In Nic Fit if you want to play a 5 mana green planeswalker. You play Nissa VF main, if you really want to add another PW you add another Nissa VF. The other viable Green 5 mana PW will be Garruk Primal Hunter in my opinion or if you want to play a pet card, spice up the deck. .
I do not see any other G 5 mana PW worth playing atm.

@grokh

I think if you really have a problem with D&T, Goblins, Elf. It is better to play Massacre Wurm. At least when you hard cast it you win the game on the spot. But Pernicious deed main deck should be sufficient to slow/kill your opponent.


Not trolling.

https://static.cardmarket.com/img/9397a18a1b17107b55e85d8fc96cf6fd/items/1/KLD/292539.jpghttps://static.cardmarket.com/img/cee6818f973c8593b7bef14e4f799b79/items/1/WAR/372179.jpg


Comparison
First Ability: +1
VF: +1 5/5 until end of turn, 4 turn clock (5+5+5+5), can be spot removed, limited impact against sweepers, can't defend Nissa while applying pressure, no inevitability.
WSW: +1 3/3 permanently, also vigilance so + 2 mana since you can attack and tap for mana, 3 turn clock (3+6+9), can be spot removed, multiples susceptible to Terminus, also gives you 2 mana back the turn it comes into play like Teferi, Hero of Dominaria, can defend Nissa while applying pressure, inevitability.

My Verdict: Nissa, Who Shakes the World offers more utility, more pressure, more resilience.

Second Ability: -3
VF: A regrowth for a permanent is great, imo especially in conjunction with Pernicious Deed or Eternal Witness.

WSW: Instead of the -3, Nissa, Who Shakes the World has a static ability that immediately ramps into your biggest threats. I consider it a 'static ultimate', or a "0 loyalty emblem" except it won't use up your Planeswalker activation. You will go from 5 mana to 9 mana at least if you miss your 6th land drop, or 11 mana if you hit your 6th land drop.). Thus, you can hardcast, or turn your GSZ into any of these bombs the the turn after:
https://static.cardmarket.com/img/6499d9e368adb0aa8059898aa817969b/items/1/WWK/22185.jpghttps://static.cardmarket.com/img/bdfbfd4952ea5d41128451495b6e6fd1/items/1/SHM/19149.jpghttps://static.cardmarket.com/img/0f8ec3dd94b54e17b4f8a6aeec2b45d5/items/1/CONF/20764.jpg

I believe playing any of the above bombs is usually more powerful than the -3 of Nissa, Vital Force.

Another line of play is this: On 5 lands, you can cast WSW, untap a bayou, play a Veteran Explorer and a Cabal Therapy twice, grab 2 forests and add another GGGG to your mana pool, for instance for Eternal Witness or GSZ for Eternal Witness.

Ultimate
VF: Drawing cards is nice, but slow. It's especially bad if you draws land with your land drops, compared to WSW which draws an arbitrarily large amount of lands and places them onto the battlefield immediately. Extra bonus if you have Tireless Tracker.
WSW: immediately puts all your green duals, forests and dryad arbor in play, and make your army of land creatures indestructible. This massively filters your deck so you draw into business and just skips the grindy long plan of Nissa, Vital Force.

The static abilities of War of the Spark planeswalkers are categorically underestimated and misevaluated. During spoiler season, Nissa Who Shakes the World did not gain much attention since it's not a 'sexy walker' but another 'boring' Nissa. Call it Nissa fatigue. Those who played the prerelease will attest the immensely high power level of this set. I think that it is not me that is sitting on a high horse, but Echelon who dismisses the fourth most popular card of War of the Spark on MCM as unplayable trash because the micro community of Nicfit's discord seems to side with his opinion according to him, while apparently the greater Magic community seems to like the card by now.

https://i.imgur.com/geAcmdm.png
These are my arguments. Not saying Vital Force is bad, but I am saying I believe it is outclassed.

square_two
05-01-2019, 04:42 PM
Still very hesitant to be so on board with the Forests-double-mana static ability. You want to include Terastodon/Primus/Progenitus? Sure, but that sounds like a NO Nic Fit list and would be a new variant - and sure, sounds like she could work in such a deck to help enable GSZ to grab the same threat that NO could grab. You are comparing a "more mana" static ability to a Regrowth effect in a deck that plays Deed and other high-powered stuff to return from the yard. More mana that requires a GSZ in hand(!) -and- something 6+ mana to abuse with it...sounds to me this just tilts the deck (normal variants that is) in more of the dangerous mana-ramp style of play. AKA you run the risk of drawing Progenitus or other fatties at inappropriate times. Has been the curse even moreso in this deck ever since Top was banned.

Vital Force's card draw ult can happen the turn after she comes down. So it's usually something on the table, and the card advantage will bury control lists. Going to be an exceedingly rare occasion where you have stuck the walker and kept it there for the following 3 turns. To be rewarded with...getting another Bayou or two and Savannah onto the table?

Still feels like VF compliments traditional lists much better. Curious about a list with a couple NO thrown in though, I like how new Nissa turns GSZ into a tool to grab the same stuff. Not excited to be incentived to be playing much more Forests tho.

Echelon
05-01-2019, 05:08 PM
@bruizar Glad to hear that needs of draft players, standard, modern, legacy, vintage and edh players are all equal. Obviously if a card is great in drafts it must be great in everything that plays Forests, even if they typically just run 2-3. Happy to be on that horse with you though, the view is great from up it.

In all seriousness if your best advice is to make Nic Fit even more top heavy and reliant on lots of mana you'd be better off suggesting we play Natural Order b/c at least that'd speed the whole process up considerably. Glad you're here to save the ignorant Nic Fit community though. Your kind efforts are appreciated. We'd be lost without them.

bruizar
05-02-2019, 04:25 AM
@bruizar Glad to hear that needs of draft players, standard, modern, legacy, vintage and edh players are all equal. Obviously if a card is great in drafts it must be great in everything that plays Forests, even if they typically just run 2-3. Happy to be on that horse with you though, the view is great from up it.
Since when do draft players buy singles. I was merely stating that the card is underestimated during spoiler season for lack of appeal.



In all seriousness if your best advice is to make Nic Fit even more top heavy and reliant on lots of mana you'd be better off suggesting we play Natural Order b/c at least that'd speed the whole process up considerably. Glad you're here to save the ignorant Nic Fit community though. Your kind efforts are appreciated. We'd be lost without them.
Here we can have a bit of a real discussion. There is natural tension between late game bombs and the needs of the early game. Why else run veteran explorer, if not to accelerate into the late game where you should be at a strategic advantage because of more high impact spells? So, yes you need some bombs so you can overpower your opponents late game plays, but how 'bomby' is too much? That is a good discussion to have since there are multiple styles and decklists that will each answer this question in a different way.

One way is to add Finale of Devastation and remove all the bombs. Then use Nissa, Who Shakes the World's static ability to cast an X=10 Finale and alpha strike with a veteran explorer and a witness (returning Finale). This gives you early game utility and a late game finisher in one card. Between 3/3 beatdown and finale you should have plenty of ways to close out games.

The strongest argument against Nissa, Who Shakes the World, is that it makes your own pernicious deeds much worse, as you will blow up your lands if you don't have the indestructibility emblem, and Deed is an archetypical card for Nic Fit. At least with Vital Force you can play around your own deeds. However, WSW's ultimate gets you your lands back anyway so you're not getting landlocked if you have to deed your own lands.

With that said, you guys have zoomed in particularly on the static ability right now, which I think we can only fairly compare to the -3. WSW can +1 AND enjoy the benefits of the static ability at the same time the moment it comes into play. If you play VF and -3 immediately you will probably not have the mana to cast anything you got back, and if you can then it won't be high impact. Using the -3 also virtually disables your ability to reach the ultimate. Again, not saying that VF is bad, but it has some weaknesses that static ability planeswalkers don't have.

Echelon
05-02-2019, 08:40 AM
There's been a lot of discussion on how the curve should look like. One of the most common ways the deck loses is by not being able to develop the manabase far enough and as a result have all the good stuff stuck in your hand or countered. That's where the hesitance on being reliant on even more mana comes from. I mean, Legacy as a format is all about efficiency, and we do have to respect that. Fall too far behind on card velocity and you get in serious trouble. That means that typically you don't want to rely on any one card to make another playable when you could just as well drop something like Thragtusk, Sigarda or Archon of Valor's Reach and probably take over the game from there. You trade in brute force for consistency and ease of execution.

Secretly.A.Bee
05-03-2019, 06:45 PM
@Bruizer: 3+6+9=18 my friend. Not quite a 3 turn clock. 4 turn, sure, but then WSW is in the same boat as VF, but with more downsides. Being able to beat 5-loyalty Jace profitably isn't something WSW is capable of, either in the way VF does.

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bruizar
05-04-2019, 01:22 AM
There's been a lot of discussion on how the curve should look like. One of the most common ways the deck loses is by not being able to develop the manabase far enough and as a result have all the good stuff stuck in your hand or countered. That's where the hesitance on being reliant on even more mana comes from. I mean, Legacy as a format is all about efficiency, and we do have to respect that. Fall too far behind on card velocity and you get in serious trouble. That means that typically you don't want to rely on any one card to make another playable when you could just as well drop something like Thragtusk, Sigarda or Archon of Valor's Reach and probably take over the game from there. You trade in brute force for consistency and ease of execution.

Very valid points. It's a fine balance between going over the top and playing cards that just slightly outclass your opponents top end.

Echelon
05-04-2019, 08:52 AM
Very valid points. It's a fine balance between going over the top and playing cards that just slightly outclass your opponents top end.

Yup :smile:

The risk is that you end up just coming short b/c you don't have enough punching power. As you very correctly said it is a very fine balance.

Matsu
05-06-2019, 04:03 AM
I hope I am not late to the party. Sorry but working and having a 1 year old girl at home does not help.

@Bruizar

I disagree with your comparison of Nissa VF and Nissa WSW.
First of all this PW will only be good against Control and Aggro. a 5 mana PW is too slow against the current combo decks.

NVF +1 can make a 5/5 which trades very well with Gurmag Angler, 4/5 Goyf, Goose, Mandrills, BSkull etc....
It is not the case with a 3/3 made by NWSW.
Also in a world where the best removal spells are StP, Bolt, Emrakul and Terminus opening yourself to bolt is not very good, same as loosing multiple lands to the white exterminatus.
The 5/5 kills Jace the Wallet Sculptor, yes, this is VERY important. The next PW you want to hit, will be Liliana of the veil. I did not seen any other PW recently, I do not count people playing Punishing Dack. The 3/3 will not kill a uptick PW.

Concerning the passive ability.
Our deck really dont need this type of mana acceleration. If you play a PW on turn 5 than on turn 6 you can have a GSZ for 4 with NVF, with NWSW you might be able to have it for 6. At this state of the game I do not thing there is really a difference to have a 5/5 + Siege rhino/Meren/etc or have 2x 3/3 and Archon/Dromoka/Primetime/etc, both will win you the game in two turns, both will die to Wrath effect.

Concerning mana production on opponents turn.
NVF allow you to untap any land and turn it into a 5/5
NWSW will only be beneficial if you animate into a 3/3 a Forest land.
The only spells you would like to cast on your opponent’s turn will be:
PtE, StP, Decay, Trophy, C-Rotation, D-Edict.
None of those cards require GG (I would love a GG destroy a crit or PW) so most of the time if you want to apply some special tactics in your opponent’s turn, you have to animate a Bayou or Savannah. Good luck with all the Wastelands around. And loosing a Dual to StP can hurt sometimes if you have awkward hand.

Ultimate.
NVF +1
NWSW +3
I think this is it.
Indestructible will not be beneficial in Legacy where the only massive board wipe are W instant and shuffle your deck. Good luck when you ult your WSW and lose your elemtals. Btw if you manage to play a PW on turn 5 and ult it four turns later you are definitely winning the game. It does not matter what PW you are playing: Big Sorin, Small Sorin, Kaya GA, Big Elspeth, Small Elspeth, Flip Garruk, Angrath, Jace etc...

If they really wanted to make Nissa WSW playable in Multiple format not only in Type 2.
This is how she will look like:

1GGG
Nissa, Who Destroys the World
Whenever you tap a Land for mana, add an additional G.
+1: Put Four +1/+1 counters on up to one target land you control. Untap it. It becomes a 0/0 Elemental creature with Vigilance, Trample and Haste that's still a land.
−8: You get an emblem with "Lands you control have indestructible." Search your library for any number of Land cards, put them onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library. Put Two +1/+1 Counters on all your lands. They become 0/0 Elemental creatures with Vigilance, Trample and Haste that's still a land.
5 Loyalty

Like I have said before, we really did not get anything in this set. If you really want to play a new PW and jump on the PW hype train.
I suggest you have a look at Davriel.
I do not have much time at the moment and play very sporadically but i am working on heavy discard build with Davriel.
This is the core (the rest is irrelevant at the moment):

1 Dryad Arbor
4 GSZ
4 Veteran Explorer
4 CT
1 Duress/Thoughtseize/IoK
3 Collective Brutality
3 Davriel
1 Kaya GA

The point is to go:
1. Turn 1 GSZ for Arbor -> turn 2 Davriel
2. Turn 1 VE -> turn 2 CT + Davriel
3. Turn 1 CT-> turn 2 Collective Brutality -> turn 3 Davriel
4. Turn 1 TS/Duress-> turn 2 Collective Brutality -> turn 3 Davriel
Turn 4 will be a crit that apply protection and more pressure like Siege Rhino or any other 4 mana beast.

After a couple of games, the conclusion is: it applies a very strong disruption on combo (S&S), control (Miracles) and Xerox (UR Delver) decks (these are the ones I was able to playtest). And this is what I want from Nic Fit, Nic Fit is about Pressure. Your opponent has to fill the cord slowly clenching around his neck. Nic Fit is about overwhelming your opponent.

I wanted to Playtest this build first before posting, but i just do not have time to play Mtg until the end of June. And you guys can work a little on this type of deck.
By this time i would like to have a proper deck and be ready for some cool stuff from Modern Horizon that will catapult our deck to Tier 0 and maybe a meta adjustment after the new muligan rule (pls ban BS).
Where the hell is my Garruk Destroyer of the Worlds, I hope they will make him OP.

Cheers

Mr. Safety
05-06-2019, 08:39 AM
In a rare instance of impulse buying packs, I cracked a couple War of the Spark this weekend and got a Finale of Devastation. Is this deck in the market for a 5th GSZ effect, that also does a passable reanimator job due to our mana engine?

square_two
05-06-2019, 09:46 AM
In a rare instance of impulse buying packs, I cracked a couple War of the Spark this weekend and got a Finale of Devastation. Is this deck in the market for a 5th GSZ effect, that also does a passable reanimator job due to our mana engine?

Most people I've talked to don't seem particularly impressed. I wouldn't mind seeing it 1-2 of at most to beef up the number of GSZ. There are certain situations where they are very similar. Having 3 lands is one such case. Usually most lists don't have any stellar 2 drops (Ooze is about the only one I'd care to grab) and so in this case, Finale can grab a Vet and continue to ramp you. I'd definitely grab one from the Library though, in order to help reduce drawing them later. The issue is the number of times you will be at 2 mana and really wish the Finale was a GSZ in order to grab a Vet.

Finale opens you up to have a more consistent while limited creature selection. Here's what I mean about that. Most silver bullets do 1 thing, and don't overlap (think Teeg). If the opponent can answer it, then they might win and you don't have a backup. Finale being able to get stuff back from the yard could add in some redundancy. Yes I know that Teeg would be answered end of your turn by the storm player and then they'd go off, but think about something like Thragtusk. Most lists have a single Thragtusk as board presence + lifegain. If you do end up trading Thragtusk for Angler and then the opponent is re-applying pressure with their Delver and you need a source of lifegain (but oh no that Thragtusk was your only option!) then voila, you have Finale to reuse the tusk. Bit smoother than going GSZ -> E Wit and getting Tusk to hand again. And Finale on a dead E Wit means you can get anything back which is really neat.

Nongreen also opens up some possibilities. I've seen BUG lists which limit the number of GSZ they play. Could replace with Finale. Vets, Strixes, Thief of Sanity, and Finale? Brainstorms to smooth draws? 5 mana for a Thief sounds pretty nice. Not sure about being excited for 4 mana for a Strix.

Brael
05-06-2019, 11:16 AM
In a rare instance of impulse buying packs, I cracked a couple War of the Spark this weekend and got a Finale of Devastation. Is this deck in the market for a 5th GSZ effect, that also does a passable reanimator job due to our mana engine?

I think that if you want a 5th GSZ, Chord of Calling is the better alternative.

In terms of rate, GSZ costs an additional 1 to get a creature at sorcery. Finale is 2 to get a creature at sorcery, albeit with slightly better selection (though you can already do this at slightly more mana, with the ability to split it over turns by getting Eternal Witness). Chord of Calling is 3 additional, but since you can convoke it you're paying 2 additional in practice generally, so at just that it's already comparable to Finale, but then since Chord is an instant you're getting far better timing out of it, allowing you to use it when there's an opening or as "haste". I don't think we can take Finale's =10+ text into consideration.

Mr. Safety
05-06-2019, 11:22 AM
Good points, both. I'm still on an expedition into Maverick land but I keep this deck in my back pocket if something really powerful gets added to tip the scales. If Finale doesn't do that I don't really see anything else in War that would contribute.

Matsu
05-06-2019, 04:58 PM
Can you chain Finale of Devastation?

For example cast finale for 3 -> grab E-Witness from deck and Tracker from Graveyard. Use E-Witness to return Finale to your hand.
Next turn sac E -Witness to Ph-Tower cast Finale for 3 grab back E-Witness targeting Finale and another crit from your deck.
Repeat process each turn.

Is it possible to establish a loop like that?

If yes this might be very useful to outgrind your opponent.

Ralf
05-06-2019, 07:27 PM
Can you chain Finale of Devastation?

For example cast finale for 3 -> grab E-Witness from deck and Tracker from Graveyard. Use E-Witness to return Finale to your hand.
Next turn sac E -Witness to Ph-Tower cast Finale for 3 grab back E-Witness targeting Finale and another crit from your deck.
Repeat process each turn.

Is it possible to establish a loop like that?

If yes this might be very useful to outgrind your opponent.

It is one creature not two.
You get to choose between grave or library but you only get one.

Mr. Safety
05-06-2019, 07:59 PM
Can you chain Finale of Devastation?

For example cast finale for 3 -> grab E-Witness from deck and Tracker from Graveyard. Use E-Witness to return Finale to your hand.
Next turn sac E -Witness to Ph-Tower cast Finale for 3 grab back E-Witness targeting Finale and another crit from your deck.
Repeat process each turn.

Is it possible to establish a loop like that?

If yes this might be very useful to outgrind your opponent.

Profane Command is better with Eternal Witness, it has more useful modes, creates a loop, and the drain for X creates inevitability. But we haven't seen Profane Command in legacy in years.

Matsu
05-07-2019, 02:48 AM
It is one creature not two.
You get to choose between grave or library but you only get one.

You are right, completely miss interpreted the card.

Captain Hammer
05-07-2019, 11:47 PM
The deck is doing pretty well now. 3 Nic Fit lists 5-0ed on MTGO yesterday

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/tournament/competitive-legacy-league-2019-05-04#paper

Nic Fit
Creatures (10)
1 Dryad Arbor 0.33
4 Veteran Explorer g 2.52
3 Academy Rector 3w 20.85
2 Arena Rector 3w 5.44
Planeswalkers (2)
1 Karn Liberated 7 30.97
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon 8 0.07
Spells (14)
4 Cabal Therapy b 3.28
3 Thoughtseize b 14.37
1 Assassin's Trophy bg 5.79
3 Living Wish 1g 1.20
1 Toxic Deluge 2b 2.53
2 Eureka 2gg 0.02
Enchantments (12)
2 Evolutionary Leap 1g 0.04
3 Sylvan Library 1g 0.06
2 Pernicious Deed 1bg 2.12
1 Curse of Death's Hold 3bb 0.01
1 Curse of Misfortunes 4b 0.01
1 Dovescape 3wuwuwu 0.01
1 Cruel Reality 5bb 0.02
1 Overwhelming Splendor 6ww 0.06
Lands (22)
2 Ancient Tomb 17.80
2 Bayou 3.88
1 Cavern of Souls 14.93
2 Phyrexian Tower 6.90
1 Savannah 0.73
1 Scrubland 0.33
3 Snow-Covered Forest 0.12
1 Snow-Covered Plains 0.06
2 Swamp 0.00
4 Verdant Catacombs 41.44
3 Windswept Heath 11.46
Sideboard (15)
1 Cavern of Souls 14.93
1 Karakas 2.12
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale 2.43
2 Surgical Extraction bp 78.08
1 Containment Priest 1w 7.75
1 Ethersworn Canonist 1w 0.03
1 Scavenging Ooze 1g 7.18
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben 1w 0.52
1 Choke 2g 2.59
2 Faerie Macabre 1bb 0.10
1 Reclamation Sage 2g 0.04
1 Academy Rector 3w 6.95
1 Arena Rector 3w 2.72
75 Cards Total

Nic Fit
Creatures (14)
3 Veteran Explorer g 0.99
1 Gaddock Teeg gw 7.85
1 Satyr Wayfinder 1g 0.15
1 Scavenging Ooze 1g 4.46
2 Stoneforge Mystic 1w 69.98
1 Eternal Witness 1gg 4.33
1 Knight of Autumn 1gw 3.49
2 Tireless Tracker 2g 20.00
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth 2bg 16.96
1 Thragtusk 4g 2.55
Planeswalkers (2)
1 Kaya, Ghost Assassin 2wb 20.23
1 Nissa, Vital Force 3gg 4.44
Spells (16)
4 Cabal Therapy b 7.56
4 Green Sun's Zenith xg 38.68
3 Swords to Plowshares w 3.75
4 Assassin's Trophy bg 46.36
1 Toxic Deluge 2b 25.36
Artifacts (1)
1 Batterskull 5 16.57
Enchantments (5)
3 Sylvan Library 1g 119.97
2 Pernicious Deed 1bg 7.90
Lands (22)
2 Bayou 597.98
4 Forest 0.00
1 Karakas 20.82
2 Marsh Flats 83.98
1 Phyrexian Tower 11.14
1 Plains 0.00
1 Savannah 187.02
1 Scrubland 189.99
2 Swamp 0.00
4 Verdant Catacombs 294.08
3 Windswept Heath 51.15
Sideboard (15)
1 Pithing Needle 1 2.22
3 Surgical Extraction bp 168.60
3 Thoughtseize b 42.57
2 Containment Priest 1w 9.36
2 Ethersworn Canonist 1w 17.78
3 Choke 2g 11.37
1 Toxic Deluge 2b 25.36

Matsu
05-08-2019, 07:12 AM
I cannot afford 2 Eureka, I will prefer to spend that money on more playable cards.

Mr. Safety
05-08-2019, 09:19 AM
Eureka isn't necessary, you can build with Rectors alone. That list is only playing 2 Rectors and 2 Eureka, just play 4 Rectors if you're interested in building it. It's slanted much more towards Academy Rector anyways, which is already a known quantity.

Megadeus
05-08-2019, 09:43 AM
I do like the thought of a Natural Order Nic Fit deck. You could run stuff like elvish Piper or that one creature that exerts to put in a green guy plus have new Nissa as a backup to ramp into a huge green sun. It's probably a tribe elder/wood elves variant though. And you need to be sure whatever bomb you're playing is good enough

Matsu
05-08-2019, 10:59 AM
Eureka isn't necessary, you can build with Rectors alone. That list is only playing 2 Rectors and 2 Eureka, just play 4 Rectors if you're interested in building it. It's slanted much more towards Academy Rector anyways, which is already a known quantity.

It is. It is a Show and Tell effect in green color. It just help you cheat cards when you draw your big spells. So replacing it with additional rectors is okey. But when you draw Ugin or Splendor and have 4 mana open it is just better to cast Eureka not rector.
Rector Fit is still a cool deck even having difficulties like that.

Captain Hammer
05-08-2019, 04:44 PM
It is. It is a Show and Tell effect in green color. It just help you cheat cards when you draw your big spells. So replacing it with additional rectors is okey. But when you draw Ugin or Splendor and have 4 mana open it is just better to cast Eureka not rector.
Rector Fit is still a cool deck even having difficulties like that.

I know it doesn't make sense to have a seperate nic fit thread for each color combination.

However, the Rector Fit lists (w or w/o eureka) are so different from traditional nic fit in so many respects that I really think it would make sense for them to have a seperate thread.

I really love the idea of Rector Fit and want to build such a deck but the discussion about them gets lost in the noise in this thread.

Back on topic, this is the Rector Fit list I plan to put together. Does it look good?

2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Forest
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

3 Academy Rector
3 Arena Rector
4 Veteran Explorer

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Collective Brutality
1 Cruel Reality
1 Curse of Death’s Hold
1 Curse of Misfortunes
0 Dovescape
1 Omniscience
3 Eureka
1 Sylvan Library
1 Evolutionary Leap
4 Living Wish
1 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
1 Overwhelming Splendor
0 Sandwurm Convergence
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Thoughtseize
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

SB:
Standard Wishboard
Emrakul (if Omniscience is in play)

Anything you would change about the above list?

Matsu
05-09-2019, 04:45 AM
I think even with only 5 green creature it is worth playing at least 2 GSZ.
If you drop GSZ you might prefer to move to Esper colors and play Brainstorm, ponder, Jace.
The turn 1 ramp to Arbor or turn 2 ramp with VE is the core of acceleration. if you are afraid of having blank cards try this:
1 Dryad Arbor
3 GSZ
3 VE
3 Arena rector
3 Academy rector
Turn 1 land -> GSZ -> Arbor
Turn 2 Phyrexian tower -> Rector -> this is a great opening if you know your opponent.
Also
Turn 1 land -> CT
Turn 2 land-> GSZ-> VE -> is still the strongest play, you ramp to 4 lands and trim at least one card from your opponents hand
If you play 3 or 4 Evo leap
Turn 1 land-> GSZ -> Arbor
Turn 2 land-> Evo leap-> End of opponent turn trigger Evo Leap sac Arbor is a great play if you have a follow up.

You can easily drop Omniscience and 1 living wish.
Wish is more for silver bullets or if you have part of the lock for example only splendour and you need a big guy to finish the game.
I also think you should try to play main deck Dovescape. On paper it looks awful. But against any sort of spell heavy decks it is very good, especially against ANT and S&S.
I am also a huge fan of crop rotation, but Living wish should be sufficient if you have P-Tower/Bojuka bog/Karakas in the sideboard.
I really like curse of misfortune, but I know many people drop it in favour of more controlling cards.
Rector into Curse allow you to close the game in 3 turns -> splendour-> death’s hold-> Cruel reality. If you remove it you have to play more conservatively.

Concerning the PW package It is much easier with Eureka. Because you can turn 2 cheat Ugin, Karn, Bolas into play.
I am personally not a big fan of this concept. PW are just weak. They are great early game, but the further you play the weaker they become.
Splendour locks you opponents board. Ugin does not, he is very good against crits decks like Goblins, D&T, Delver, etc, but something is missing. After a board reset you still need to do 20 dmg. I tried an arena rector version of the deck and it is super grindy, because you are missing the final nail in the coffin you still need to Living wish for a creature or play multiple PW to out value your opponent. When Cruel reality on an empty board or even with one or two creature puts an immense pressure on your opponent it is the same with the Wurm Machine.
But if you want to play PW I think you should go for a more silver build bullet and play superfriend-> Karn Liberated, Ugin, Bolas, Nissa VF, Big Sorin, Big Elspeth, etc
Also you can try to focus on a new build with 4 Karn the great creature and play Mycosynth lattice on the side and try to disrupt you opponent with CT, VE, Thoughtseize and win with a lock.

A couple of pages ago I put my old Academy List. You can also check the NicFit Discord. They are more active there and they really try to push some new strategies. I do not always have the time to follow them. But you might find the help you are looking for.

Mr. Safety
05-09-2019, 07:36 AM
I know it doesn't make sense to have a seperate nic fit thread for each color combination.

However, the Rector Fit lists (w or w/o eureka) are so different from traditional nic fit in so many respects that I really think it would make sense for them to have a seperate thread.

I really love the idea of Rector Fit and want to build such a deck but the discussion about them gets lost in the noise in this thread.

Back on topic, this is the Rector Fit list I plan to put together. Does it look good?

2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Forest
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

3 Academy Rector
3 Arena Rector
4 Veteran Explorer

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Collective Brutality
1 Cruel Reality
1 Curse of Death’s Hold
1 Curse of Misfortunes
0 Dovescape
1 Omniscience
3 Eureka
1 Sylvan Library
1 Evolutionary Leap
4 Living Wish
1 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
1 Overwhelming Splendor
0 Sandwurm Convergence
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Thoughtseize
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

SB:
Standard Wishboard
Emrakul (if Omniscience is in play)

Anything you would change about the above list?

I would want another 1-2 mana acceleration pieces, but besides that it looks fun as hell!

Captain Hammer
05-09-2019, 07:50 AM
I think even with only 5 green creature it is worth playing at least 2 GSZ.
If you drop GSZ you might prefer to move to Esper colors and play Brainstorm, ponder, Jace.
The turn 1 ramp to Arbor or turn 2 ramp with VE is the core of acceleration. if you are afraid of having blank cards try this:
1 Dryad Arbor
3 GSZ
3 VE
3 Arena rector
3 Academy rector
Turn 1 land -> GSZ -> Arbor
Turn 2 Phyrexian tower -> Rector -> this is a great opening if you know your opponent.
Also
Turn 1 land -> CT
Turn 2 land-> GSZ-> VE -> is still the strongest play, you ramp to 4 lands and trim at least one card from your opponents hand
If you play 3 or 4 Evo leap
Turn 1 land-> GSZ -> Arbor
Turn 2 land-> Evo leap-> End of opponent turn trigger Evo Leap sac Arbor is a great play if you have a follow up.

You can easily drop Omniscience and 1 living wish.
Wish is more for silver bullets or if you have part of the lock for example only splendour and you need a big guy to finish the game.
I also think you should try to play main deck Dovescape. On paper it looks awful. But against any sort of spell heavy decks it is very good, especially against ANT and S&S.
I am also a huge fan of crop rotation, but Living wish should be sufficient if you have P-Tower/Bojuka bog/Karakas in the sideboard.
I really like curse of misfortune, but I know many people drop it in favour of more controlling cards.
Rector into Curse allow you to close the game in 3 turns -> splendour-> death’s hold-> Cruel reality. If you remove it you have to play more conservatively.

Concerning the PW package It is much easier with Eureka. Because you can turn 2 cheat Ugin, Karn, Bolas into play.
I am personally not a big fan of this concept. PW are just weak. They are great early game, but the further you play the weaker they become.
Splendour locks you opponents board. Ugin does not, he is very good against crits decks like Goblins, D&T, Delver, etc, but something is missing. After a board reset you still need to do 20 dmg. I tried an arena rector version of the deck and it is super grindy, because you are missing the final nail in the coffin you still need to Living wish for a creature or play multiple PW to out value your opponent. When Cruel reality on an empty board or even with one or two creature puts an immense pressure on your opponent it is the same with the Wurm Machine.
But if you want to play PW I think you should go for a more silver build bullet and play superfriend-> Karn Liberated, Ugin, Bolas, Nissa VF, Big Sorin, Big Elspeth, etc
Also you can try to focus on a new build with 4 Karn the great creature and play Mycosynth lattice on the side and try to disrupt you opponent with CT, VE, Thoughtseize and win with a lock.

A couple of pages ago I put my old Academy List. You can also check the NicFit Discord. They are more active there and they really try to push some new strategies. I do not always have the time to follow them. But you might find the help you are looking for.

Awesome write up. Thank you for the tips. Will try that out.

Captain Hammer
05-09-2019, 02:29 PM
I feel like Ensnaring Bridge is solid in Rector Fit lists. Alas there is no room for it is there?

Do you think Liliana, Dreadhorde General is worth it as a one in Arena Rector Fit lists?

1. Its easy to hardcast, unlike Nicol Bolas, Dovescape or Omniscience.

2. All of its abilities synergize well in this deck.

Echelon
05-10-2019, 12:48 AM
It does nothing other planeswalkers don't already do better.

Captain Hammer
05-13-2019, 11:35 AM
Back on topic, this is the Rector Fit list I plan to put together. Does it look good?

2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Forest
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

3 Academy Rector
3 Arena Rector
4 Veteran Explorer

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Collective Brutality
1 Cruel Reality
1 Curse of Death’s Hold
1 Curse of Misfortunes
0 Dovescape
1 Omniscience
3 Eureka
1 Sylvan Library
1 Evolutionary Leap
4 Living Wish
1 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
1 Overwhelming Splendor
0 Sandwurm Convergence
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Thoughtseize
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

SB:
Standard Wishboard
Emrakul (if Omniscience is in play)

Anything you would change about the above list?

Im considering trying...
-3 Eureka
-2 Collective Brutality
-1 Evolutionary Leap
-1 Sylvan Library
-1 Omniscience

To add

1 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Neoform
2 Incubation Druid
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
0 Thragtusk

Neoform a Vet Explorer into an Incubation Druid = 8 mana on turn 3 (enough mana to hardcast Ugin or any of the curses without the inherent risk Eureka poses)
Neoform a Rector into Titania = an enchantment+land+2 5/3s (probably win more but neoform is a decent sac outlet regardless)

Any 5c creature works in that slot, Gitrog Monster, the boar god, baneslayer, whatever you guys can think of.

Captain Hammer
05-18-2019, 08:23 AM
With Modern Horizons out in less than a month, it begs the question...

Is Cabal Therapist worth playing in Rector Fit maindeck? If so, how many copies. It's an additional Cabal Therapy which is a key card in giving this deck a chance about combo or control matchups. It's a one mana sac outlet for Vet Explorer and both the Rectors.

The only downside I see to Cabal Therapist is that it gives your opponents a target for their creature kill which would otherwise have been dead cards.

What do you think?


I know for 100% certain that I will be including a single Cabal Therapist in the sideboard to grab with Living Wish.

Echelon
05-18-2019, 12:41 PM
Too slow. Would've been useful if it said "any mainphase", like Carpet of Flowers. Unfortunately it doesn't.

Brael
05-18-2019, 02:09 PM
With Modern Horizons out in less than a month, it begs the question...

Is Cabal Therapist worth playing in Rector Fit maindeck? If so, how many copies. It's an additional Cabal Therapy which is a key card in giving this deck a chance about combo or control matchups. It's a one mana sac outlet for Vet Explorer and both the Rectors.

The only downside I see to Cabal Therapist is that it gives your opponents a target for their creature kill which would otherwise have been dead cards.

What do you think?


I know for 100% certain that I will be including a single Cabal Therapist in the sideboard to grab with Living Wish.

It’s much too slow. The best case scenario is being able to activate it with another creature on turn 3.

miki
05-28-2019, 03:32 AM
hi all im from spain last week i play this list with top 8 in the tournament
4 veteran explorer
4 arena rector
4 cabal therapy
3 hymn to tourach
3 lingering souls
1 diabolic intent
2 innocent blood
2 finale of devastation
3 pernicious deed
4 assasins trophy
2 evolutionary leap
2 ugin , the spirit dragon
1 nicol bolas god pharao
1 lilana the last hope
1 Gideon the trials
1 nissa vital force
2bayou
1 Savannah
1 scrubland
4 verdant catacombs
4 windswept heath
1 cavern of souls
1 phyrexian tower
3 forest
3 swamp
2 plains
sideboard
2 massacre
2 carpet of flowers
2 thoughtseize
1 surgical extraction
3 choke
2 nihil spellbomb
1pithing needle
1 krosan grip

need opinions for the deck any changes? thanks all

Jain_Mor
05-28-2019, 03:48 AM
http://www.mythicspoiler.com/mh1/cards/hallofheliodsgenerosity.jpg

Recur Pernicious Deed

Mr. Safety
05-28-2019, 03:44 PM
If one were to playtest a Burning Wish package, what would be the cards one would want?

-Maelstrom Pulse
-Toxic Deluge
-Thoughtseize
-Duress
-Pyroclasm
-?????

square_two
05-28-2019, 04:46 PM
If one were to playtest a Burning Wish package, what would be the cards one would want?

-Maelstrom Pulse
-Toxic Deluge
-Thoughtseize
-Duress
-Pyroclasm
-?????

I've seen: Therapy, Innocent Blood, Subterranean Tremors, Lost Legacy, Toxic Deluge, Slaughter Games, Tsunami, and Pyroclasm. Probably lot of talk about it if you search the thread for Scapeshift. Think it's still the primary Jund nic fit configuration.

Matsu
05-29-2019, 04:09 AM
I think it depends on your metagame. If you have a lot of D&T, Massacre will be better then pyroclasm. If you expect Elves, Goblins and D&T you should stick Pyroclasm and Sub tremors (the x=4 is great against all those artifacts).
I am less focused on Deluge recently, Not meany eldrazi in my metagame
Thought seize is better with Wish as you always want to hit
Duress is stronger in main and keeps your life total, if you have a lot of aggressive decks around, just play IoK.
You want tsunami against slower decks like Miracles, but might be useful against DelverBlades or just blade decks.
I am not a fan of Maelstrom pulse especially if you play at least 2/3 copies of Pernicious Deeds.
In a very diverse metagame i will go with something like that, as it gives the most answers.

1x Pyroclasm
1x Cabal Therapy
1x Sub tremors
1x Thought Seize/Iok
1x Tsunami
1x Innocent Blood
1x Lost legacy
1x Slaughter games
3x Pyroblast
4x faerie macabre

Ralf
05-29-2019, 05:36 AM
I think it depends on your metagame. If you have a lot of D&T, Massacre will be better then pyroclasm. If you expect Elves, Goblins and D&T you should stick Pyroclasm and Sub tremors (the x=4 is great against all those artifacts).
I am less focused on Deluge recently, Not meany eldrazi in my metagame
Thought seize is better with Wish as you always want to hit
Duress is stronger in main and keeps your life total, if you have a lot of aggressive decks around, just play IoK.
You want tsunami against slower decks like Miracles, but might be useful against DelverBlades or just blade decks.
I am not a fan of Maelstrom pulse especially if you play at least 2/3 copies of Pernicious Deeds.
In a very diverse metagame i will go with something like that, as it gives the most answers.

1x Pyroclasm
1x Cabal Therapy
1x Sub tremors
1x Thought Seize/Iok
1x Tsunami
1x Innocent Blood
1x Lost legacy
1x Slaughter games
3x Pyroblast
4x faerie macabre

I like it.
I wouldn't play Lost Legacy because BB is a killing in Scape variant. SLG is a house but 4 CMC is sometimes evil.
Sub Tremors doesn't hit flying creatures. I would rather play Sudden Demise if you are looking for that kind of effect. With many Deed in the deck; X=4+ shouldn't be the main reason for playing Sub Tremor.
But all these cards are more conditional than a pure and simple Toxic Deluge, especially since Scape variants are usually the ones that pack the most lifegain cards.

Finally, I still think we/you need a catch-all because this SB is a bit too "soft" to PW. Pyroblast does hit Jace, though.

My two cents,

Ralf

Mr. Safety
05-29-2019, 07:03 AM
Great responses, thanks. I definitely want to put together some sort of Grove/Fires variant in Legacy. Right now I'm playing Punishing Maverick and it's *ok*, but doesn't really tickle my pickle. I've played a good amount of Nic Fit in the past (Junk Rhinos) but that was in the DRS era.

Is Burning Wish good enough without Scapeshift? I was thinking it allows for a powerful non-blue control variant that has game against combo decks.

sdematt
05-29-2019, 09:27 AM
Great responses, thanks. I definitely want to put together some sort of Grove/Fires variant in Legacy. Right now I'm playing Punishing Maverick and it's *ok*, but doesn't really tickle my pickle. I've played a good amount of Nic Fit in the past (Junk Rhinos) but that was in the DRS era.

Is Burning Wish good enough without Scapeshift? I was thinking it allows for a powerful non-blue control variant that has game against combo decks.

Jund Fit with Grove/Fires seems fine right now, as would just Jund Fires (w/ BBE).

Mr. Safety
05-29-2019, 09:41 AM
Jund Fit with Grove/Fires seems fine right now, as would just Jund Fires (w/ BBE).

I have a local player that has been building Jund as a 2nd deck and he has been a little disappointed. I'm trying to come up with a deck I like that has a big, splashy plan alongside a good grind plan. Hybrid decks are how I like to sling magic. I'm currently trying to see if I can get a cohesive list together for Nic Fit w/PFire or some sort of grindy Turbo Depths/Lands/Jund mashup that plays a good fair plan but can still make a 20/20. I want bombs and I think Jund Fit might scratch what's been itching.

square_two
05-29-2019, 09:44 AM
Great responses, thanks. I definitely want to put together some sort of Grove/Fires variant in Legacy. Right now I'm playing Punishing Maverick and it's *ok*, but doesn't really tickle my pickle. I've played a good amount of Nic Fit in the past (Junk Rhinos) but that was in the DRS era.

Is Burning Wish good enough without Scapeshift? I was thinking it allows for a powerful non-blue control variant that has game against combo decks.

I believe the most powerful thing about combining with Scapeshift is that you get to use one Wish early for control - grabbing Therapy or removal essentially. Then your 2nd drawn Wish is ready to grab Scapeshift and win on the spot (win-con being 4 cmc means that you can more easily do this in a single turn). If you aren't going for Scapeshift in Jund then I would suggest having at least 1 wish target that either wins or massively tilts the game, probably at 5-6 mana. Not sure what that is...

Worm Harvest? Gets through countermagic and discard, makes use of fetches and you get to continue to power it out. Perhaps there's some Loam variant with Grove/PFire and this.

Matsu
05-29-2019, 10:54 AM
I have a local player that has been building Jund as a 2nd deck and he has been a little disappointed. I'm trying to come up with a deck I like that has a big, splashy plan alongside a good grind plan. Hybrid decks are how I like to sling magic. I'm currently trying to see if I can get a cohesive list together for Nic Fit w/PFire or some sort of grindy Turbo Depths/Lands/Jund mashup that plays a good fair plan but can still make a 20/20. I want bombs and I think Jund Fit might scratch what's been itching.

I think there is big difference in playing NicFit with Scapeshift and NicFit without Scapeshift.
Because I do not have a playset of Badlands (still working on it) I did not have many possibilities to playtest it.
I Played RGB NicFit and i can say that this combination of cards was amazing to me:

4x Collective burtality
4x Punishing Fire
4x Faithless looting
4x Cabal therapy

I did not play Wish in this build as i was working on the amount of Looting in the deck. I still dont have a final number. I can say one think this deck ramps very very fast. I played a 7 drop because of that. I still dont have a final number.
Because you filter your deck quickly and you can abuse all the cards from the Graveyard it give a different approach to the game than a Scapeshift deck, where you want to reach seven land and have a combination of those 2 cards:
Burning wish, thought seize and Scapeshift

Mr. Safety
05-29-2019, 11:16 AM
I believe the most powerful thing about combining with Scapeshift is that you get to use one Wish early for control - grabbing Therapy or removal essentially. Then your 2nd drawn Wish is ready to grab Scapeshift and win on the spot (win-con being 4 cmc means that you can more easily do this in a single turn). If you aren't going for Scapeshift in Jund then I would suggest having at least 1 wish target that either wins or massively tilts the game, probably at 5-6 mana. Not sure what that is...

Worm Harvest? Gets through countermagic and discard, makes use of fetches and you get to continue to power it out. Perhaps there's some Loam variant with Grove/PFire and this.

Natural Order comes to mind as an alternative to Scapeshift. I could play 3 in the main and have 2-3x BW to get the 4th. Dryad arbor and a suite of value creatures like Vets, Scooze, Witness, etc would provide plenty of fodder for some big targets.

These are the ones I would consider:

Elderscale Wurm
Worldspine Wurm
Progenitus

Matsu
05-29-2019, 11:29 AM
Natural Order comes to mind as an alternative to Scapeshift. I could play 3 in the main and have 2-3x BW to get the 4th. Dryad arbor and a suite of value creatures like Vets, Scooze, Witness, etc would provide plenty of fodder for some big targets.

These are the ones I would consider:

Elderscale Wurm
Worldspine Wurm
Progenitus


The problem is those creature dont have written "i win" on them. Without haste i do not think it is good to play them. I will prefer a B-Wish to be played as a tool box device if you not play an instant win condition like scapeshift.

morgan_coke
06-09-2019, 06:12 PM
Found an old box of cards in my parents attic this weekend, was going through them (btw, what the absolute fuck is going on with Ice Age Snow lands being like $2-$3? Thanks for the $$ I guess) and found an old card that I, and probably everyone else had forgotten about:

Kjeldoran Dead

Has anyone tried this as a sac outlet for Explorer yet? Seems like it's worth investigating. But maybe it's bad, I dunno, this isn't really my deck, but I saw that and thought "hey, I should mention this". So, here ya go, mentioned.

Barook
06-09-2019, 11:09 PM
https://twitter.com/Bahra01/status/1137858770535669761

Bahra did make it to the Top 4 of the Legacy Challenge today. Apparently, Yawgmoth is really good.

Mr. Safety
06-10-2019, 07:06 AM
I can't make out the list, all I can see is it's Junk colored with 1 Meren/3 Yawgmoth and the usual suspects. Aside from the obvious interaction with Vet I didn't see a reason to play Yawgmoth in Nic Fit. There's definitely something I'm missing, unless Yawgmoth is just a better Phyrexian Plaguelord?

[reptiLe]
06-10-2019, 09:08 AM
I can't make out the list, all I can see is it's Junk colored with 1 Meren/3 Yawgmoth and the usual suspects. Aside from the obvious interaction with Vet I didn't see a reason to play Yawgmoth in Nic Fit. There's definitely something I'm missing, unless Yawgmoth is just a better Phyrexian Plaguelord?

I think you missed "draw a card"

Matsu
06-10-2019, 10:44 AM
;1071320']I think you missed "draw a card"

So he is a 4mana not GSZable 2/4 you have to sac your own crit to draw a card. How is he better then Phyrexian Arena? I Also do not see a potential.
Looking at the deck I see a combo with Lingering souls, probably pontiffs and possibly useless SFM.
Yawgmoth will definitely be better if you could sac him for a better effect like Plaguis is.

I know just by looking at the deck that this will not work in my metagame.

Megadeus
06-10-2019, 11:26 AM
He probably requires a certain meta, but he seems very powerful against both control and midrange

Mr. Safety
06-10-2019, 11:48 AM
;1071320']I think you missed "draw a card"

I assumed people would understand the word 'better'. Sorry for not explaining clearly.

I just don't know if a better Plaguelord (that distributes -1/-1 counters while drawing a card) is actually good enough. I don't see the proliferate ability becoming relevant too often, it's just incredibly slow. It does synergize with Meren and Scavenging Ooze, but that is just digging way too deep to be reliable. Protection from humans can be good against Death and Taxes I suppose, and the fringe humans deck in legacy.

EDIT: Isn't Liliana, the Last Hope just a better use of your mana for pinging small creatures?

Erdvermampfa
06-10-2019, 12:31 PM
I have the suspicion that Yawgmoth and that random 1of Therapist were only included with the intention to hype and advertise the new cards...as you have mentioned there isn't much point in playing him here...

Mr. Safety
06-10-2019, 12:52 PM
He probably requires a certain meta, but he seems very powerful against both control and midrange

I agree, and that meta is called 'modern'. I don't see this guy as legacy playable. He's a 4-mana play that neither wins the game nor actually pushes your own strategy forward. Other 4-mana creatures typically played by Nic Fit: Siege Rhino, Meren of Clan Nel Toth, Academy Rector, Arena Rector. Again, I see synergies but I don't think playing 2 4-drops that synergize together (Meren + Yawgmoth) as fast enough, and by the time you have mana for Yawgmoth you've likely already shot off a Veteran Explorer and have enough mana already. If I want to draw extra cards I think Tireless Tracker is about a million times better. If I want repeatable removal I think Punishing Fire/Grove is a million times better, or Pernicious Deed + Eternal Witness/Niss VF. If Yawgmoth were tutorable with GSZ I think it would potentially be good, otherwise it appears to be just fun-factor testing of new cards.

bruizar
06-10-2019, 02:12 PM
I think there's some more to this list than you give it credit for. In particular, Lingering Souls becomes an insane draw engine and sweeper with Yawgmoth.

Mr. Safety
06-10-2019, 03:32 PM
Fair, I think that could be very good. I don't see how it's better than Deed/Deluge at sweeping, but the card draw is appealing. I'm not sold, but I am willing to admit I'm wrong if it proves out over the next few months. Having another avenue for Nic Fit to progress would be very exciting indeed.

square_two
06-10-2019, 05:05 PM
Bahra mentioned that Cavern naming Human was huge throughout the challenge. 2x Cavern to enable some powerful tools might should be something to explore. Perhaps more Trackers could be fit in. I remember Cavern very fondly when I was playing Academy Rector.

bruizar
06-11-2019, 12:56 AM
I think yawgmoth is mostly a control card, but your second Veteran Explorer is put in overdrive with yawgmoth:
G: Pay 1 life, put two lands onto the battlefield untapped, draw a card, shoot a -1/-1 counter on something

That's a lot of value. In particular, tokens, undying, Bloodghast-like creatures work well with Yawgmoth

Being able to proliferate Nel Toth's experience points by pitching a creature which you will get back with Nel Toth seems reasonable, I think it would be better if there were more planeswalkers or other cards to proliferate into.

I think the protection from humans is surprisingly relevant, especially against death & taxes or a Snapcaster here and there.

Matsu
06-11-2019, 05:15 AM
...
I think the protection from humans is surprisingly relevant, especially against death & taxes or a Snapcaster here and there.

D&T has maindeck access to Karakas and snap dies to fetch ->DA.

We already have the edge against D&T with P-Deed also naming their Blades and P-Revoker with CT.

If Zombie Fish will be a Human this will be better but now it is only good against some Maverick or 4C Loam.

bruizar
06-11-2019, 05:34 AM
D&T has maindeck access to Karakas and snap dies to fetch ->DA.

We already have the edge against D&T with P-Deed also naming their Blades and P-Revoker with CT.

If Zombie Fish will be a Human this will be better but now it is only good against some Maverick or 4C Loam.

Agreed. I don't necessarily think Yawgmoth is a good card, but I see the utility. Apparently it played reasonably well. The biggest attraction for me would be Lingering Souls or other token creatures.

Hangarback Walker looks like it can benefit from both the proliferate and the sack ability.

Barook
06-12-2019, 07:40 AM
Here's Caleb D. playing the deck (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/437786097)

Lots of Yawgmoth action. Card does seem pretty good.

Captain Hammer
06-14-2019, 12:20 PM
I am not sold on Yawgmoth. But if I was going to play him, I would really want to pair him with Liliana, the last hope

All three of Liliana's abilities supplement yawgmoth well. You can pair the -2/-1 from Liliana with -1/-1s from Yawgmoths to pick off flipped delvers, Rabblemasters and the like. You can use the -2 to get back Yawmoth or Explorer or other high value targets for Yawgmoth (Rector).

And Yawgmoth's proliferate ability is not going to be useful often, but it will occasionally let you ramp out Liliana's ultimate which wins you the game (turn 3 Liliana +1 (to blow up your explorer to get 2 swamps or something), turn 4 Yawgmoth +2, turn 5 ultimate).

Liliana and Yawgmoth make a cute couple.

bruizar
06-14-2019, 01:05 PM
I am not sold on Yawgmoth. But if I was going to play him, I would really want to pair him with Liliana, the last hope

All three of Liliana's abilities supplement yawgmoth well. You can pair the -2/-1 from Liliana with -1/-1s from Yawgmoths to pick off flipped delvers, Rabblemasters and the like. You can use the -2 to get back Yawmoth or Explorer or other high value targets for Yawgmoth (Rector).

And Yawgmoth's proliferate ability is not going to be useful often, but it will occasionally let you ramp out Liliana's ultimate which wins you the game (turn 3 Liliana +1 (to blow up your explorer to get 2 swamps or something), turn 4 Yawgmoth +2, turn 5 ultimate).

Liliana and Yawgmoth make a cute couple.

Cute, demonic, same thing :D

Captain Hammer
06-14-2019, 02:06 PM
Found an old box of cards in my parents attic this weekend, was going through them (btw, what the absolute fuck is going on with Ice Age Snow lands being like $2-$3? Thanks for the $$ I guess) and found an old card that I, and probably everyone else had forgotten about:

Kjeldoran Dead

Has anyone tried this as a sac outlet for Explorer yet? Seems like it's worth investigating. But maybe it's bad, I dunno, this isn't really my deck, but I saw that and thought "hey, I should mention this". So, here ya go, mentioned.

I have always played Kjeldoran Dead as a 1 of in the sideboard (along with a Phyrexian Tower and a Plaguecrafter) in every deck I've ever played that utilized Living Wish (The Game, Rector Fit). It's definitely solid in Rector Fit since it leaves behind a regenerating blocker to help protect the planeswalker that Rector brought out but Plaguecrafter is the better Wish target whenever you have 5 or more mana.. I am going to test swapping it with a Cabal Therapist but Therapist is a full turn slower so I'm uncertain if it's the right move. But Yawgmoth, even if it costs 4 mana, seems like a must play Living Wish target to have as a 1 of in the board since it serves both combo and control functions.

The Game used to play Fleshbag Marauder since Plaguecrafter (an upgrade) was only printed recently.

Edit: I really wish the OP was updated. It grinds my gears everytime I open this thread and see "Sensei's Divining Top was just banned this morning (4/24/17)" in big bold letters at the top.

My Living Wish board will probably be adding...
+1 Yawgmoth, Thran Physician
+1 Cabal Therapist
-1 Kjeldoran Dead
-1 Something Else

bruizar
06-15-2019, 02:05 AM
I made a case about the new Nissa for NicFit a while ago, and I think the below article warrants a serious second consideration as to whether or not she is viable. According to the following article it is now the best card in standard. 4x Nissa Bant control won the GP in Taipei at the loss of Esper Control. The article specifically states how Nissa belongs to a ramp deck, which NicFit is for legacy. It validates many of the play patterns I put forward when analyzing the card for NicFit. Without sounding too cocky, arrogant, or "i told you so"-ish, I think people should pay more attention to Nissa.

https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/nissa-who-ends-the-game-is-the-best-card-in-standard/?_ga=2.50222176.793035008.1560545494-1137525675.1560545493

kombatkiwi
06-15-2019, 01:21 PM
I made a case about the new Nissa for NicFit a while ago, and I think the below article warrants a serious second consideration as to whether or not she is viable. According to the following article it is now the best card in standard. 4x Nissa Bant control won the GP in Taipei at the loss of Esper Control. The article specifically states how Nissa belongs to a ramp deck, which NicFit is for legacy. It validates many of the play patterns I put forward when analyzing the card for NicFit. Without sounding too cocky, arrogant, or "i told you so"-ish, I think people should pay more attention to Nissa.

https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/nissa-who-ends-the-game-is-the-best-card-in-standard/?_ga=2.50222176.793035008.1560545494-1137525675.1560545493

Every decklist in this CFB article is playing multiple X spells that scale with having access to 5+ mana:
- Hydroid Krasis
- Mass Manipulation
- Finale of Glory

If you already have 5 mana in your legacy deck to cast NissaWSTW then how are you taking advantage of the mana flare? In a normal build of NicFit GSZ for 10 isn't an upgrade to GSZ for 5 or 6 because you don't have any creature in the deck that costs this much, so are you adding stuff like Terastodon or Prog to your deck to enable it? How often are these winning games that cheaper threats wouldn't? (Thrag, Primeval, etc). How often are you losing games because you brick drawing these uncastable creatures? How often are you losing games because you drew NissaWSTW without a GSZ or a fatty and all you can do is make a 3/3, and couldn't get a Deed/creature from the graveyard like a NissaVF could?

Essentially the problem is that Nicfit is a midrange deck but you want to play it as a combo/ramp deck.
There are decks in standard that play familiar NicFit-esque cards (Assassin's Trophy, Liliana General, Vraska, Find//Finality etc) but are these the decks you see playing NissaWSTW? No, because only the ramp deck wants to dedicate all its resources to ramping. It doesn't want to trade any of its resources (with cards like Therapy or Hymn or Deed) because then it won't scale into its payoffs hard enough to overwhelm the opponent.

You could build a dedicated ramp deck in Legacy but these already exist. If you want to play NissaWSTW then you need to justify why it's better to have 5 forests in play than a bunch of Cloudposts.

For the record I don't think the NicFit discord is very useful either but "Surely this must be good in Legacy it was one of the most indemand cards on MKM, and CFB says it's the best card in standard" is honestly a way dumber take than any of the discussions that happen there. I'm sure the top 8 of GP Atlanta in September will be full of Aetherworks Marvel / Smuggler's Copter

bruizar
06-15-2019, 02:53 PM
Every decklist in this CFB article is playing multiple X spells that scale with having access to 5+ mana:
- Hydroid Krasis
- Mass Manipulation
- Finale of Glory

If you already have 5 mana in your legacy deck to cast NissaWSTW then how are you taking advantage of the mana flare? In a normal build of NicFit GSZ for 10 isn't an upgrade to GSZ for 5 or 6 because you don't have any creature in the deck that costs this much, so are you adding stuff like Terastodon or Prog to your deck to enable it? How often are these winning games that cheaper threats wouldn't? (Thrag, Primeval, etc). How often are you losing games because you brick drawing these uncastable creatures? How often are you losing games because you drew NissaWSTW without a GSZ or a fatty and all you can do is make a 3/3, and couldn't get a Deed/creature from the graveyard like a NissaVF could?

Essentially the problem is that Nicfit is a midrange deck but you want to play it as a combo/ramp deck.
There are decks in standard that play familiar NicFit-esque cards (Assassin's Trophy, Liliana General, Vraska, Find//Finality etc) but are these the decks you see playing NissaWSTW? No, because only the ramp deck wants to dedicate all its resources to ramping. It doesn't want to trade any of its resources (with cards like Therapy or Hymn or Deed) because then it won't scale into its payoffs hard enough to overwhelm the opponent.

You could build a dedicated ramp deck in Legacy but these already exist. If you want to play NissaWSTW then you need to justify why it's better to have 5 forests in play than a bunch of Cloudposts.

For the record I don't think the NicFit discord is very useful either but "Surely this must be good in Legacy it was one of the most indemand cards on MKM, and CFB says it's the best card in standard" is honestly a way dumber take than any of the discussions that happen there. I'm sure the top 8 of GP Atlanta in September will be full of Aetherworks Marvel / Smuggler's Copter

There's plenty of stuff in current standard that is widely played in Legacy, Teferi and Narset being the main ones. Apparently, those cards are outmoded by Nissa. I would say stupidity is ignoring developments outside of legacy because of a stubbornly theoretical reasoning why you shouldn't experiment with a new card. You basically assume the card is bad when evidence shows it isn't.

Yes, X spells make Nissa better. It was already indicated that the new GSZ [Finale of Devastation] which could scale to x=10 with the manaflare, provides a good alternative win condition without polluting the deck with X creatures like hydroid krasis that cannot be grabbed with GSZ.

You mention "you want to play it as a combo/ramp deck"
I told you, the deck it is played in is BANT Control, Nissa lends itself to ramp style control decks.
There's also no shortage of mana sinks for the manaflare ability. Nic Fit is a broad swath of decks designed around cabal therapy and veteran explorer, but if you go for a red build there's Kessig Wolf Run for instance. Those options exist in every color.

kombatkiwi
06-15-2019, 03:49 PM
There's plenty of stuff in current standard that is widely played in Legacy, Teferi and Narset being the main ones. Apparently, those cards are outmoded by Nissa. I would say stupidity is ignoring developments outside of legacy because of a stubbornly theoretical reasoning why you shouldn't experiment with a new card. You basically assume the card is bad when evidence shows it isn't.

Yes, X spells make Nissa better. It was already indicated that the new GSZ [Finale of Devastation] which could scale to x=10 with the manaflare, provides a good alternative win condition without polluting the deck with X creatures like hydroid krasis that cannot be grabbed with GSZ.

You mention "you want to play it as a combo/ramp deck"
I told you, the deck it is played in is BANT Control, Nissa lends itself to ramp style control decks.
There's also no shortage of mana sinks for the manaflare ability. Nic Fit is a broad swath of decks designed around cabal therapy and veteran explorer, but if you go for a red build there's Kessig Wolf Run for instance. Those options exist in every color.
Ok, but then you are polluting the deck with GSZ that are taxed an extra G.

The Bant decks in the article are in no way control decks, the only way you can consider these control decks is if you think all decks with spells CMC >5 are control decks. (In fact if you ctrl F the page for "control" the only mention from the author is how the deck moved away from being a control deck after it added Nissa).

You: If a card is highly playable in standard it must have potential in Legacy (if X then Y)
Me: X does not necessarily imply Y, here are examples where X is not Y
You: But look at these other examples where X is Y
:rolleyes:


You basically assume the card is bad when evidence shows it isn't.
We don't have any evidence one way or the other. Cards being playable in standard is not evidence they will be successful in legacy. I don't have time to test every single card in legacy that top8s some standard event so in the absence of this evidence I am using my own experience and heuristics to decide that it is likely not a legacy-playable card. I'm not "ignoring" anything, you have brought it to my attention, I have considered and dismissed it. If you think I am wrong then there is nothing stopping you from simply going to get the tournament results that vindicate your opinion at which point I will have to admit I was wrong and you can claim all the glory/prizemoney

Captain Hammer
06-15-2019, 05:08 PM
There is no reason to argue. The wonderful thing about Nic Fit is that as long as youre playing Cabal Therapy and Vet Explorer, you can build the rest of the deck however you want. Once you get to powerful 5cc spells, there is an incredible pleothora of powerful game breaking ones to choose from. So run what you want.

Nissa is a very powerful effect but only if you build a deck that properly utilizes its abilities. Nissa effectively generates 12 mana (tap 5 forest for 10 mana, then +1 it to untap a forest to get you to 12 mana).

If I did play Nissa, I would definitely be playing it alongside a Worldspine Wurm, maybe a Terastadon and 3 Natural Orders. You can GSZ out the Wurm (or Terastodon) for 12 mana if you have Nissa out, or you can NO out the Wurm if you dont have Nissa out.

I would make almost all the lands in the deck forest duals or fetchlands that can grab forests/dryad arbors (to sac to NO), and I would jam it full of discard and removal to ensure you can survive till you get to 5 mana and to strip any StP out of your opponents hands. I would probably run arbor elf as well since it ramps, synergizes with Nissa and with NO so well.

Barook
06-16-2019, 05:52 AM
I am not sold on Yawgmoth. But if I was going to play him, I would really want to pair him with Liliana, the last hope

All three of Liliana's abilities supplement yawgmoth well. You can pair the -2/-1 from Liliana with -1/-1s from Yawgmoths to pick off flipped delvers, Rabblemasters and the like. You can use the -2 to get back Yawmoth or Explorer or other high value targets for Yawgmoth (Rector).

And Yawgmoth's proliferate ability is not going to be useful often, but it will occasionally let you ramp out Liliana's ultimate which wins you the game (turn 3 Liliana +1 (to blow up your explorer to get 2 swamps or something), turn 4 Yawgmoth +2, turn 5 ultimate).

Liliana and Yawgmoth make a cute couple.
Ophiomancer would also be a cute combo with Yawgmoth, considering you get sac fodder every turn.

Captain Hammer
06-16-2019, 04:16 PM
I think its a mistake that more Nic Fit lists dont lean heavy on black and play maindeck Hymn to Tourach, Dark Ritual and more discard spells. Picking apart your opponents hand is the best way to buy time to resolve and protect our threats in this meta.


Ophiomancer would also be a cute combo with Yawgmoth, considering you get sac fodder every turn.

Wow, yeah Oophimancer and Yawgmoth make for a quite synergistic combo. Im tempted to jam a mostly black Nic Fit list with a light splash that plays...
Contamination
Bitterblossom
Ophiomancer
Yawgmoth, Thran Physician
Academy Rector
Curses
Veteran Explorer
Cabal Therapist
Cabal Therapy
Hymn to Tourach
Inquisiton of Kozilek
Thoughtseize
Dark Ritual
Phyrexian Tower

12-16 powerful sac outlets and 12-16 creature sources that you want to sac. Perfectly balanced...

akyher
06-22-2019, 01:33 PM
Hi, I recently built a version of Nic Fit (more or less regular abzan build) and I am having trouble with UW(x) control decks. Any advice, what to side out, what in, maybe change up the sideboard? I am not sure whether to side out removal (I have 3 paths, 3 trophies and an abrupt decay for targeted and 3 deeds in main) because of mentor. I am not sure if I should keep the explorers or not, since my opponent is likely going to be able to tutor up a lot of basics as well and be able to use them effectively. So far I have been sideboarding out my non-hexproof threats since they tend to just get swordsed.

My current sideboard is: lost legacy 2x, Blessed Alliance 1x, Faerie Macabre 4x (budget reasons, would probably play 2x surgical, 1x faerie, 1x extirpate and maybe leyline if I had them), Inquisition fo Kozilek 1x, Duress 1x (also, looking to replace with 2x thoughtseize), Sorcerous Spyglass 1x, Pithing Needle 1x, Thrun the Last Troll 1x, Choke 3x.

I am running small Vraska (Golgari Queen), is she any good? I am still not sure about her...

Also I have been considering building a kind of Lands-Matter Nic Fit with crop rotations (for Karakas, Bojuka Bog, Phyrexian Tower, Hall of Heliod's Generosity (if it proves itself playable, doubt it but I have one so I might give it a try (also returns courser)) and ghost quarter) and Courser of Kruphix, Ramunap Excavator, Knight of the Reliquary etc., I think it could have better chances against fast combo like Sneak&Show or Reanimator with maindeck instant speed hate-lands. Is it any good?

Thanks for any advice

Koplinchen
06-22-2019, 01:53 PM
Akyher,

Your problem is typical trouble of all nic fit decks facing Miracles. He does everything very efficiently. Everything you do costs one two more mana.

Best way to win is to generate CA with tracker or PW. I think best is Nissa, Vital Force as you plus her and next turn you can ultimate which is almodt always win. Fastest way is Thoughtseize into Therapy into Choke. Three Choke is a good start. I play 2-3 Sylvan in my list. Great is Bitterblossom.

I think you want to side out some Veteran but not all. Without Shaman we cant side Veteran out anymore. But that doesent mean you have to blow them asap.

I run one Tsunami in the board. Witness can bring it back. They cant beat it.

Vraska is terrible as her +1 does nothing! I think the best walkers are Nissa, VF and Kaya, Ghost Assassin that can hellbent opponent after initial dicard. When they have two bad cards, lands and draw Brainstorm they are back in it.

Karakas and Deeds (two) are great. Decay incredible. (I have 4 trophy but in this MU I d like some decay)

Lost Legacy and Spyglass are bad and I d not play them. Nor would I tun Path and Rhinos. Cut them and you will see how eill your deck improve.

Know your enemy - does he have Pierce? Big Teferi? New Force that removes Therapy?

Good luck!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Echelon
06-22-2019, 02:30 PM
@akyher: Just join the Nic Fit discord. Plenty of people there to help you and provide feedback

Koplinchen
06-22-2019, 05:02 PM
So what you are saying: leave Source? :)



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Echelon
06-23-2019, 12:08 AM
Kinda :wink:

sdematt
06-24-2019, 06:01 PM
Kinda :wink:

Disagree. Plenty of room for good discussion here.

New dinosaur for us to try:


Shifting Ceratops - 2GG

Cannot be Countered

Protection from Blue

G: Reach, Trample, or Haste until EOT.

5/4

So, this guy seems pretty darn good.

Pros:
Easier to cast than Siege Rhino
Swings past Snapcaster, Pteromander, Baleful Strix, Delver, TNN,
Trades with Gurmang Angler (and large Goyfs)
Pro blue means it swings past TNN without having to trample past
Reach means you can destroy Delvers
Haste means you can directly attack Jaces without Snapcaster blocks (similar to a Nissa role)

Cons:

No lightning helix to pressure/survive more
Doesn't automatically trample


----------------

Obviously there is some great synergy to having this guy as a guy to hook up to Equipment (with trample and reach). I'll be buying a set and trying him out for sure. Sure, he gets Plowed, but that's life in the fast lane.


----------------

The BGW Legend that we got in the set wasn't part of the Edric/Leovold, I hope, because it's not that great.


-Matt

Ralf
06-24-2019, 09:43 PM
Disagree. Plenty of room for good discussion here.

New dinosaur for us to try:



So, this guy seems pretty darn good.

Pros:
Easier to cast than Siege Rhino
Swings past Snapcaster, Pteromander, Baleful Strix, Delver, TNN,
Trades with Gurmang Angler (and large Goyfs)
Pro blue means it swings past TNN without having to trample past
Reach means you can destroy Delvers
Haste means you can directly attack Jaces without Snapcaster blocks (similar to a Nissa role)

Cons:

No lightning helix to pressure/survive more
Doesn't automatically trample


----------------

Obviously there is some great synergy to having this guy as a guy to hook up to Equipment (with trample and reach). I'll be buying a set and trying him out for sure. Sure, he gets Plowed, but that's life in the fast lane.


----------------

-Matt

He seems great on the offensive side and not so bad on the defensive side.
Reach is very nice indeed.
We definitely lacked a "good" dude in this area.

I still doubt about him especially since Thrun is no longer played.
He tanks Marit lage for a turn but doesn't stall the game as Mystic enforcer would. But he doesn't require any setup.

As a one-of he might be so so. Let's hear out about a playset (even if I'm not a fan of "creature playsets" in Nic Fit that isn't a veteran)

Happy testing !

Ralf

Matsu
06-25-2019, 09:39 AM
Hi, I recently built a version of Nic Fit (more or less regular abzan build) and I am having trouble with UW(x) control decks. Any advice, what to side out, what in, maybe change up the sideboard? I am not sure whether to side out removal (I have 3 paths, 3 trophies and an abrupt decay for targeted and 3 deeds in main) because of mentor. I am not sure if I should keep the explorers or not, since my opponent is likely going to be able to tutor up a lot of basics as well and be able to use them effectively. So far I have been sideboarding out my non-hexproof threats since they tend to just get swordsed.

What are UW(x) Control decks?
Is it Delver? Blade? Miracles? BUG Leo? All those decks play a different game (midrange, protect the queen, heavy control, permission)

I found Discard very good against all of them.

Against miracles once he is on top deck mode, do not overextend your Crits. You can easily kill with Dryad Arbor after a couple of turns and he will really have to dig for a StP or Terminus. Just dont rush sacing Explorer. Do it only when you will benefit from it (after a blind CT when you have a chaser), use him as a pressure tool to steal a couple of life points. He will not waste his StP or Terminus unless he is afraid, then you can follow with discard and a bigger Crit. PW are good against miracles, except counterspell they dont have main deck response to them. Duress/Iok/TS/CT followed by for example Nissa VF, Sorin LoI, Elspeth (small or big) , Kaya Assassin should apply enough pressure to close the game.

Blades, keep your CT for Equipment and/or establish P-Deed to nuke his TNN. TNN and blades are his best cards so you need 7 removal (4x tnn + Sofia, jitte, BS) for the rest you have bigger crits. Special tactics against these decks BS is Black very important if you play Mystic enforcer, P-Deed for zero can kill germ :tongue:

Delver trade crits use removal only on delver, because you dont have a main deck blocker against flyers, unless you play some pet cards.



My current sideboard is: lost legacy 2x, Blessed Alliance 1x, Faerie Macabre 4x (budget reasons, would probably play 2x surgical, 1x faerie, 1x extirpate and maybe leyline if I had them), Inquisition fo Kozilek 1x, Duress 1x (also, looking to replace with 2x thoughtseize), Sorcerous Spyglass 1x, Pithing Needle 1x, Thrun the Last Troll 1x, Choke 3x.


I find Faerie macabre better and play a playset, it was never relevant for me. Durres is better than IoK. If you can go for TS do it. I find tsunami better than choke. I do not see the point Trolling from the Sideboard. Blessed alliance can be problematic(doesn’t kill a defending TNN). I will go the good old Edict unless you play some Lilianas. If you struggle against Mentor, Dread of night is the card to go, helps against D&T, but hurt you side too. A single massacre if there are a lot of white decks around is great. Golgari charm is very flexible and has similar effects.



I am running small Vraska (Golgari Queen), is she any good? I am still not sure about her...


I have not play vraska, her -3 is great, rest is mediocre in my opinion, I think there are better 4mana PW to play.



Also I have been considering building a kind of Lands-Matter Nic Fit with crop rotations (for Karakas, Bojuka Bog, Phyrexian Tower, Hall of Heliod's Generosity (if it proves itself playable, doubt it but I have one so I might give it a try (also returns courser)) and ghost quarter) and Courser of Kruphix, Ramunap Excavator, Knight of the Reliquary etc., I think it could have better chances against fast combo like Sneak&Show or Reanimator with maindeck instant speed hate-lands. Is it any good?


If you want to go the lands route I will stick with the Unholy trinity: Karakas, BB, P-Tower. If you play more than two PW and less Big Crits stick in the Alliance of the Two Towers (Phyrexian Tower+Volrath's Stronghold), but be aware wastelands are everywhere.

I am not a big fan of Courser it is only good against Burn. Excavator is great on the other side and I test him maindeck for some time. KotR is a turn 4 activation, not a big fan of him in NicFit. I found it sufficient to play 2x crop rotation and pray to survive an extra turn . Most of the time against Reanimator you are dead turn 1 or 2 if you don’t have disruption. Turn 3 against Ape and Show.



Thanks for any advice


You are welcome

JackaBo
06-25-2019, 11:18 AM
As playing from the miracle side.

Dont crack your Explorer unless you’re about to play anything spectacular. Depending on your build miracle might benefit from the lands more than you.

Play one threat at the time

Walkers are good as they only die to counters, cj and beats while creatures dies to anything.

Discard is good, CA is good
Shroud and value guys are good
Reb are good

You should keep decay and perhabs deed for mentor. Board out vet and other removal.

bruizar
06-29-2019, 08:17 AM
Yawgmoth seems to be rising in popularity. I suspect it will be a tier 1 commander, and perhaps further creep into Modern and perhaps nicfit

Mr. Safety
06-29-2019, 10:06 AM
With Yawgmoth and the new green dino i think a streamlined straight GB list can be developed. I am re-evaluating the new Nissa and even Garruk Wildspeaker, to see what kind of big mana strategies could be viable. Edit: new land fetch elf and ouphe Null Rod both add value to this as well, avoiding a splash color for silver bullets.

I know some folks have stayed true to GB from the start. I think it might be correct to move towards that for an optimal nic-fit in the current metagame.

bruizar
06-29-2019, 01:07 PM
With Yawgmoth and the new green dino i think a streamlined straight GB list can be developed. I am re-evaluating the new Nissa and even Garruk Wildspeaker, to see what kind of big mana strategies could be viable. Edit: new land fetch elf and ouphe Null Rod both add value to this as well, avoiding a splash color for silver bullets.

I know some folks have stayed true to GB from the start. I think it might be correct to move towards that for an optimal nic-fit in the current metagame.

4x Verdant Catacomb 4x Prismatic Vista will help GB most definitely too.

johncarvalho
06-30-2019, 08:28 AM
Hello all!

I wanna start building into Nic Fit, and loved the Bahra's decklist, is there a way to adapt it to not play the stoneforge package?

Also, with Yawgmoth, do you guys think Bloodghast can be included for some card advantage? You can sac it to yawg, sac a vet, get 2 lands, ghasts comes into play, sac him, draw again, second land comes into play, ghast gets back, sac again....

Captain Hammer
06-30-2019, 04:17 PM
This Nic Fit variant that 5-0ed yesterday looks spicy as hell...

Creature (20)
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Baleful Strix
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Eternal Witness
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Ice-Fang Coatl
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Plague Engineer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Spellseeker
1 Thragtusk
1 Yawgmoth, Thran Physician

Sorcery (11)
4 Neoform
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith

Instant (7)
4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Assassin's Trophy

Land (22)
2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Prismatic Vista
2 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs


Sideboard (15)
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Collector Ouphe
2 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
1 Hydroblast
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Safekeeper

But its surprisingly not playing...
1 Incubation Druid

It leans on Neoform and a creature toolbox to help you find just what you need for any situation. I would absolutely play a single copy of Incubation Druid that taps for 3 mana if it has any counters on it and I would cut Birds or Ice-Fang to make room for it.

Neoform seems just as capable as GSZ and provides four additional sac effects for Vet and four additional shuffle effects to abuse Brainstorm.

Also tempting, splashing white to play more combo hate toolbox creatures and maybe even cutting a GSZ to play a single Teeg maindeck.

bruizar
06-30-2019, 05:12 PM
This Nic Fit variant that 5-0ed yesterday looks spicy as hell...

Creature (20)
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Baleful Strix
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Eternal Witness
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Ice-Fang Coatl
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Plague Engineer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Spellseeker
1 Thragtusk
1 Yawgmoth, Thran Physician

Sorcery (11)
4 Neoform
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith

Instant (7)
4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Assassin's Trophy

Land (22)
2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Prismatic Vista
2 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs


Sideboard (15)
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Collector Ouphe
2 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
1 Hydroblast
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Safekeeper

But its surprisingly not playing...
1 Incubation Druid

It leans on Neoform and a creature toolbox to help you find just what you need for any situation. I would absolutely play a single copy of Incubation Druid that taps for 3 mana if it has any counters on it and I would cut Birds or Ice-Fang to make room for it.

Neoform seems just as capable as GSZ and provides four additional sac effects for Vet and four additional shuffle effects to abuse Brainstorm.

Also tempting, splashing white to play more combo hate toolbox creatures and maybe even cutting a GSZ to play a single Teeg maindeck.

This looks very strong to me. The main line I see is Strix into Neoform into Witness into Neoform into yawgmoth or glen elendra or meren of nel thoth.

Captain Hammer
07-01-2019, 05:43 AM
A turn one/two Skyshroud Cutter or Vine Dryad into Goblin Dark Dwellers into Prime Titan/Grave Titan/Carnage Tyrant/Wurmcoil Eng/Sire of Insanity/Ruric Thar is also a devastatingly strong line of play.

Going from Eternal Witness or even a hardcast Elvish spirit guide to Atraxa or the new 5/4 pro blue haste reach trampler is also very strong.

Or just sacing Vet Explorer to grab a Hibernation Druid turn 2 equals 7 mana on turn 3 to either hardcast or GSZ a Titan. Prime Titan gets Karakas against big creature strategies and gets bojuka bog against graveyard strategies/delve/snapcaster. Carnage Tyrant hurts control. Sire of Insanity wrecks control and Ruric Thar wrecks combo.

Lots of cool options to explore with Neoform.

johncarvalho
07-01-2019, 01:07 PM
Something that looks amazing with Yawgmoth (and the mana advantage from vet explorer) is Hangarback Walker... you can proliferate him, sac him and the Thopters, draw a bunch and put a bunch of -1-1 counters...

Captain Hammer
07-28-2019, 10:17 AM
Wrenn and Six should be a staple in red green Nic Fit decks going forth.

Its an amazing ramp card, deals with annoying x/1s and can be used to kill your own Explorer in a pinch. It singlehandedly made Jund a tier 1 deck in Modern again and Nic Fit is legacy’s jund deck.

Koplinchen
07-31-2019, 02:07 PM
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190731/8f961c43248ff1ed48e90aeb526306a4.jpg

Try this. Its the real deal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

bruizar
08-02-2019, 02:27 AM
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190731/8f961c43248ff1ed48e90aeb526306a4.jpg

Try this. Its the real deal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

while it's a nice list, i don't see why you would want veteran explorer in the first place in this list. The average CC is low enough that it is simply not necessary.

Mr. Safety
08-05-2019, 08:23 AM
Just spit-balling here, so be warned, jank incoming!

I was thinking about how good Yawgmoth has shown himself to be for this deck, but he can't be fetched with Green Sun's Zenith. Birthing Pod has been fringe-playable in this deck on occasion, giving a way to tutor into Yawgmoth reliably. Three drops are really easy to enable in the deck, the low-hanging fruit being Eternal Witness, Plague Engineer, and Tireless Tracker. Chains are easy to enable with Viridian Emissary into Witness into Yawgmoth. If Yawgmoth gets targeted he can be Podded away for a Thragtusk. I am thinking mostly BG only at this point, which I think is the way to work in Pod. Jund versions are focused heavily on W&6, so there really isn't room. Pod isn't too janky, but I would love to see something like an Unearth/Witness loop that enables Yawgmoth. Profane Command scales up in power level and can become a win condition on it's own with Witness + Yawgmoth. Sac the Witness to ping creatures and draw cards, Command it back and drain/kill more stuff. Discarding cards to proliferate becomes easier with a Witness + Unearth/Command engine. Meren of Clan Nel Toth also works admirably with this, at the least just recurring Dryad Arbor for Yawgmoth to eat every turn. I also want to go junkier with Imperious Perfect, which can be fetched out to make tokens to either use with Yawgmoth or swarm the board.

pettdan
08-05-2019, 09:08 AM
I think Birthing Pod and Yawgmoth fit quite well together, also there were some Pod versions being run with some success around when WAR was released, Yawgmoth is a natural addition to them. The question is if its a good meta for Pod, I think not but go on and try it.

Mr. Safety
08-05-2019, 09:25 AM
I think Birthing Pod and Yawgmoth fit quite well together, also there were some Pod versions being run with some success around when WAR was released, Yawgmoth is a natural addition to them. The question is if its a good meta for Pod, I think not but go on and try it.

I think it's a way to keep it straight BG, otherwise you can be more efficient with Neoform and splash in powerful cards like Brainstorm and Baleful Strix. My local metagame is fairly susceptible to grindy control variants with very little combo threatening the meta. It does however have a strong Moon Stompy base, which makes 3 colors riskier. Pod can be activated even under Moon and Nic Fit is naturally good at being less susceptible to Moon because of a high basic land count. Lots of Death and Taxes, UR Delver, RUG Delver, and Lands in my local metagame.

Kriggy
08-05-2019, 10:47 AM
If you are playing yawghmoth, did anyone tried to play something like hermit druid over / in addition to thragtusk?

Mr. Safety
08-05-2019, 11:27 AM
If you are playing yawghmoth, did anyone tried to play something like hermit druid over / in addition to thragtusk?

EDIT: I think you mean this card, right?

https://227rsi2stdr53e3wto2skssd7xe-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/636939007809146756-200x279.jpeg

Thragtusk seems to fill a very particular role, mostly gaining life and stabilizing while presenting a resilient threat. I'm not sure this, or the original Deranged Hermit, are good enough. I like that it gives you a bunch of tokens all at once but it ends up costing you 6 mana. I think I'd rather have something on-curve like Imperious Perfect, but I get where you're going with this. It's a fairly good combo with Therapy/Yawgmoth, or even Cabal Therapist if you felt so inclined.

Kriggy
08-06-2019, 07:54 AM
EDIT: I think you mean this card, right?

Thragtusk seems to fill a very particular role, mostly gaining life and stabilizing while presenting a resilient threat. I'm not sure this, or the original Deranged Hermit, are good enough. I like that it gives you a bunch of tokens all at once but it ends up costing you 6 mana. I think I'd rather have something on-curve like Imperious Perfect, but I get where you're going with this. It's a fairly good combo with Therapy/Yawgmoth, or even Cabal Therapist if you felt so inclined.

Haha, I didnt even know this was a card :D I think I might give it a try. I have a rhino version, so I think I can easily substitute tusk for this AND it seems to be working well with recurring nightmare.

btw there is no function for linking cards directly like on MTGS ? I have to link pictures ?

Mr. Safety
08-06-2019, 09:34 AM
Haha, I didnt even know this was a card :D I think I might give it a try. I have a rhino version, so I think I can easily substitute tusk for this AND it seems to be working well with recurring nightmare.

btw there is no function for linking cards directly like on MTGS ? I have to link pictures ?

Yes. The easiest way is to copy the picture link and use 'insert image' icon when posting. It looks like a little tree.

Then which 'hermit' did you mean? Deranged Hermit? The card Hermit Druid is banned in legacy.

Lava Snacks
08-06-2019, 09:40 AM
btw there is no function for linking cards directly like on MTGS ? I have to link pictures ?

[cards ]Card Name[/cards ]. Remove the space after the word cards.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18250-ANNOUNCEMENT-Card-tags-(2-0!)

jhhdk
08-06-2019, 09:59 AM
... Or just sacing Vet Explorer to grab a Hibernation Druid ...

I think you meant Incubation Druid

Kriggy
08-06-2019, 11:11 AM
Yes. The easiest way is to copy the picture link and use 'insert image' icon when posting. It looks like a little tree.

Then which 'hermit' did you mean? Deranged Hermit? The card Hermit Druid is banned in legacy.


Ah thanks, obviously ment Deranged Hermit

Mr. Safety
08-06-2019, 12:04 PM
I think you meant Incubation Druid

Is there an easy way to get counters on Incubation Druid? I was looking for mana-producing 2 drops to feed Birthing Pod. So far the ones I have come up with are Viridian Emissary and Wall of Roots. Incubation Druid seems like a serious upgrade if there is an easy way to get a counter on it. The only way I can think of currently is the graft land, Llanowar Reborn. I am already going to include at least 1x Elvish Reclaimer. With only BG for colors I can squeeze in a utility land or two for Reclaimer to tutor up. I'm definitely doing Bojuka Bog and Phyrexian Tower, Karakas and Wasteland/Ghost Quarter out of the board potentially.

Kriggy
08-06-2019, 02:54 PM
Is there an easy way to get counters on Incubation Druid? I was looking for mana-producing 2 drops to feed Birthing Pod. So far the ones I have come up with are Viridian Emissary and Wall of Roots. Incubation Druid seems like a serious upgrade if there is an easy way to get a counter on it. The only way I can think of currently is the graft land, Llanowar Reborn. I am already going to include at least 1x Elvish Reclaimer. With only BG for colors I can squeeze in a utility land or two for Reclaimer to tutor up. I'm definitely doing Bojuka Bog and Phyrexian Tower, Karakas and Wasteland/Ghost Quarter out of the board potentially.

Neoform seem like the easiest options. Ive seen some versions with neoform... like T1 vet -> T2 neoform -> sac veteran, get snapcaster, flashback neoform, sac snapcaster, get witness return neoform, tutor for some 4 drop next turn. But saccing veteran into neoform for the druid seems good as well

edit: obviously you cant witness neoform after snapcaster flashback... but get druid instead should be OK. Thanks @mistercakes to point that out

mistercakes
08-06-2019, 03:36 PM
Neoform seem like the easiest options. Ive seen some versions with neoform... like T1 vet -> T2 neoform -> sac veteran, get snapcaster, flashback neoform, sac snapcaster, get witness return neoform, tutor for some 4 drop next turn. But saccing veteran into neoform for the druid seems good as well

flashback neoform -> witness neoform (not possible). just get leovold.

jhhdk
08-07-2019, 04:04 AM
Is there an easy way to get counters on Incubation Druid? ...
I was responding to an old post by Captain Hammer discussing Veteran Explorer + Neoform

Mr. Safety
08-07-2019, 06:54 AM
I was responding to an old post by Captain Hammer discussing Veteran Explorer + Neoform

Right on. I was just trying to figure out if the discussion could have merit for Pod.

Captain Hammer
08-07-2019, 10:37 PM
I think you meant Incubation Druid

Yep. That card as a 1 of alongside Neoform is very strong. Neoform itself is really powerful especially if you deck plays some bombs like Atraxa or GDD.

Matsu
08-08-2019, 04:59 AM
Yep. That card as a 1 of alongside Neoform is very strong. Neoform itself is really powerful especially if you deck plays some bombs like Atraxa or GDD.

What is GDD?

Captain Hammer
08-08-2019, 02:52 PM
What is GDD?

Goblin Dark-Dwellers.

The ideal hand would be turn 1 play a Vine Dryad/Skyshroud Cutter for free, discard a ESG for a green mana, cast neoform targeting the free 4cc creature in order to put GDD into play, which in turn recasts Neoform targetting GDD, getting you a turn 1 Carnage Tryant/Primeval Titan/Grave Titan/Sire of Insanity/Ruric Thar or whatever else 6cc monster you think will essentially win you the game on turn 1.

The mediocre plays are stuff like hardcasting ESG then Shardless Agent/Violent Outburst/Ardent Plea/Demonic Dread -> Neoform/Eldrich Evolution it into an Atraxa, or Neoforming a Veteran Explorer into an Incubation Druid in order to hardcast Primeval Titan on turn 3.

Matsu
08-09-2019, 09:53 AM
Goblin Dark-Dwellers.

The ideal hand would be turn 1 play a Vine Dryad/Skyshroud Cutter for free, discard a ESG for a green mana, cast neoform targeting the free 4cc creature in order to put GDD into play, which in turn recasts Neoform targetting GDD, getting you a turn 1 Carnage Tryant/Primeval Titan/Grave Titan/Sire of Insanity/Ruric Thar or whatever else 6cc monster you think will essentially win you the game on turn 1.

The mediocre plays are stuff like hardcasting ESG then Shardless Agent/Violent Outburst/Ardent Plea/Demonic Dread -> Neoform/Eldrich Evolution it into an Atraxa, or Neoforming a Veteran Explorer into an Incubation Druid in order to hardcast Primeval Titan on turn 3.

I have seen many things in Nicfit the last couple of years. But that is something completely new.

Qweerios
08-14-2019, 09:29 PM
I'm trying to brew a good Neoform list because I think this card is the key to finally make a good Therapy + Force of Will deck that fully abuses GSZ, Yay! I haven't played Nic Fit for a while but I think Neoform pushes this deck over the top! Here's what I have in mind:


Creatures (18)
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Baleful Strix
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Coiling Oracle
1 Plague Engineer
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Eternal Witness
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

Spells (22)
2 Assassin's Trophy
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Neoform
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Lands (20)
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp

Sideboard
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Man-o'-War
Tyrant's Scorn
Force of Negation
Surgical Extraction
Thoughtseize
Back to Basics


4 Explorers because he's the nuts with Neoform, Therapy, and GSZ.

4 Strix because it's card advantage + removal on a stick AND it's blue. The second best Neoform enabler

1 Snapcaster Mage for those Neoformed Explorers.

1 Coiling Oracle because I want a value CMC2 to GSZ + Neoform a 3drop win-con... aaaaand hes blue!

1 Scavenging Ooze is a no-brainer...

1 Plague Engineer as a silver-bullet for pretty much any aggro deck and Empty the Warrens. That card is never bad.

1 True-Name Nemesis as our T2 Progenitus because a 4/2 TNN is almost impossible to deal with... and hes blue!

1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest because hes amazing and can be GSZ. 4/4 Leovold can't be Bolted... (ridiculous).

1 Eternal Witness as my value GSZ target to set up my 4-drops.

1 Glen Elendra Archmage to secure the win against Combo and Control decks.

1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth because I wanted something at 4 to GSZ for that would be the most versatile (I have never played the card).

1 Titania, Protector of Argoth is the best top of the curve I could think of that can be GSZ. Perhaps a Carnage Tyrant would be better? How about Sagu Mauler instead? What do you think?

1 Dryad Arbor for those T1 GSZ and Therapy flashbacks.

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Neoform
4 Green Sun's Zenith

This with 4 Explorers and 4 Strix is pretty much the skeleton of the deck. It provides the necessary disruption and tutors/manipulation to enable the plays.

2 Assassin's Trophy because I had 2 slots left and Trophy gives the most versatile removal for the least cost given that we already plan on giving our opponents basic lands.

The SB is really rough but I figured I'd want some Thoughtseize, Surgicals, and Force of Negation for Combo decks. The Tyrant's Scorn seemed pretty good against all sorts of decks like as a blue card for Force, removal for early creatures, and bounce spells for some tougher creatures (Marrit Lage and Reanimator). I also like how it can be used to bounce our own creatures for added value or as a cycling effect. A single Rec Sage seems like an auto-include. B2B is there to have a bomb against all the decks that go bigger than us (12Posts and Lands mainly). It also hoses all the decks without basics. A Man-o'-War as an answer to Show n Tell, Reanimator, Marrit Lage, or simple as a tempo card against creature decks that pitches to FoW. The Collector Oophe is the best I could find as a cheap GSZ target against Storm when I don't have Neoform or have to pitch it.

The main plan would be to go the usual Explorer/Strix route with the added Neoform sac outlet, grab the best 2-3 drop and then use that mana and card advantage for FoW and to sink it in GSZ or the more expensive cards. In the advent that my T1 GSZ or Explorer into T2 CMC3 card is not relevant to the matchup, I can Neoform them for some select 4drops.

What important creatures am I missing? Or are there any that shouldn't be in the main? Meren and Titania are the slots I am the least sure about so I would appreciate your input for these slots.

I thought about Tireless Tracker but I don't see in what matchup I would want to GSZ for him over Leo or Witness because I probably won't be using Neoform to grab him if I can get TNN or Plague. If those happen to be dead, well Witness is likely my choice here.

Thanks for reading!

Ivan.784
08-16-2019, 02:21 AM
Hello, I play this deck since many years and had a few top 8's and a lot of fun with it
Over the last 2 years I played a straight GB shell with a small white SB option.
The deck is heavily focused on card advantage and performs well against blue control decks, with some interesting options vs combo too.
Here's my classic GB list


4 Vets
1 Ooze
1 Witness
2 Tracker
1 Thragtusk
1 Titania

2 Liliana, the last hope
1 Nissa VF
1 Ob Nixilis, reignited

2 Crop Rotation
4 GSZ
4 Cabal therapy
4 Hymn to tourach
2 pernicious deed
1 Deluge
3 Assassin Trophy
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library

4 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard:

3 Surgical
2 Lost Legacy
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Golgari Charm
1 Rec Sage
1 Liliana's Triumph
1 Assassin's Trophy
2 Containment priest
2 Ethereal canonist

The deck is solid, though I'd like to put a little more pressure on the opponent.
The core strategy is to win through card advantage with slow planeswalker or to slam the opponent with Nissa VF or Titania (the real star of the deck).
I'd NEVER swap the crop rotation package for anything else, as it gives an answer against Emrakul/Reanimator/early wastelands/STP's on your beasts as well as more card advantage in conjunction with the 2 trackers and Titania.

Changes I would make now:

+1 Meren, -1 Deed maindeck
+1 Deed, -1 Containment Priest sideboard
I'll probaby try to find a spot for a single Nurturing Peatland, maybe in the place of Volrath's.

Now I'm tinkering around a jund list with Wrenn and Six, I'll post that later.

studderingdave
08-17-2019, 10:57 PM
Any suggestions on a planeswalker heavier build (4-6 walkers) staying in GB and a possible splash. We run legacy 1k's every month locally and i love experimenting with Nic Fit and Maverick builds.

Ralf
08-27-2019, 12:05 PM
Any suggestions on a planeswalker heavier build (4-6 walkers) staying in GB and a possible splash. We run legacy 1k's every month locally and i love experimenting with Nic Fit and Maverick builds.

ABZAN Walker Fit - Ralf

4 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Swamp
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Savannah
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Scrubland
1 Marsh Flats
1 Phyrexian Tower

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Arena Rector
1 Eternal Witness
1 Mystic Enforcer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk

1 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Legion's End
1 Toxic Deluge

2 Oath of Nissa
1 Sylvan Library

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Crop Rotation
1 To the slaughter

SB = yet to be made.

Enjoy,

Ralf.

theBloody
09-01-2019, 08:42 AM
Hi guys, can I chain Neoform like this:
T1 Veteran Explorer
T2 Neoform -> Forest + Island -> Snapcaster Mage form Neoform -> flashback Neoform -> sacrifice Snapcaster Mage -> Get 3 drop?

Fox
09-01-2019, 09:58 AM
Hi guys, can I chain Neoform like this:
T1 Veteran Explorer
T2 Neoform -> Forest + Island -> Snapcaster Mage form Neoform -> flashback Neoform -> sacrifice Snapcaster Mage -> Get 3 drop?

This seems more difficult than Vet -> Ramp -> Scarab God -> make a 4/4 Vet.

Qweerios
09-01-2019, 10:58 AM
Hi guys, can I chain Neoform like this:
T1 Veteran Explorer
T2 Neoform -> Forest + Island -> Snapcaster Mage form Neoform -> flashback Neoform -> sacrifice Snapcaster Mage -> Get 3 drop?

Yes. That's the whole premise behind the Neo Fit deck I posted above. Being able to tutor any 3drop on T2 with a +1/+1 counter is very powerful. You can even grab a 4drop T3 if you Neo your Snapcaster for a Spellseeker. I've been working on Neo Fit casually and have been surprised at how good it could be. Neoform is the next step for Nic Fit if you want a competitive Vet Ex deck.

This is where I stand with the deck right now:

Creatures (20)
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Baleful Strix
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Ice-Fang Coatl
1 Plague Engineer
1 Spellseeker
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Eternal Witness
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Yawgmoth, Thran Physician
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

Spells (20)
4 Brainstorm
1 Tyrant's Scorn
1 Assassin's Trophy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Neoform
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Lands (20)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Snow-Covered Island
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard
1 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Plaguecrafter
1 Crop Rotation
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Force of Will


There are a lot of toolboxes at hand here which makes the deck quite challenging and resourceful. Force of Will postboard is a really strong addition to our Combo matchup. T2 Spellseeker crushes Depths decks. T2 4/4 Leovold or 4/2 TNN is massive against most of the fair decks. Spellseeker is amazing in this deck and enables so many lines.

There are so many ways to build this deck and it is difficult to find the best one...

theBloody
09-01-2019, 01:07 PM
Thanks for the answer. Nice decklist. Gonna experiment with Neoform myself.

jhhdk
09-03-2019, 09:03 AM
@Qweerios: No love for Incubation Druid?
Am I correct that theory is he is an enabler and you prefer creatures that are useful on their own?

Qweerios
09-03-2019, 06:19 PM
@Qweerios: No love for Incubation Druid?
Am I correct that theory is he is an enabler and you prefer creatures that are useful on their own?

You are correct. Druid is a mana dork on a turn where you untap with 4-5 lands. I don't need mana at this point, I want win cons.

Secretly.A.Bee
09-10-2019, 07:50 PM
If no one else is gonna, I'll bring it up.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190910/2d3bb86681865c0a0e21b9caf0d209f8.jpg

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Echelon
09-11-2019, 12:42 AM
Oh, we know about it :laugh:

It's at least getting tested.

Mr. Safety
09-11-2019, 07:10 AM
The value of that card is quite simply put, absurd. I'll say it again: I don't think you need a 3rd color for Nic Fit currently. There is enough value added recently that allows for a stable GB manabase (Yawgmoth, Plague Engineer, Elvish Reclaimer, now Questing Beast.)

sdematt
09-12-2019, 11:16 AM
The power level here seems quite good. Not being uncounterable is obviously poop, and not having hexproof is poop, but for the 4-mana guys who don't have either of those abilities, he seems pretty okay.

Vigilance, Deathtouch, and Haste - amazing if not countered. Being able to crack-back on a Jace is never a bad thing. It's likely not as good as Nissa's ability since that 5/5 can kill the Jace, but still...you can hit them, and then crack Jace. Vigilance means you're holding up a lovely blocker. Love it.

Can't be blocked by creatures power 2 or less: Not getting chumped by Baleful strix, Archanist, most of DnT, Pyromancer tokens, Zombie tokens, etc. etc. etc. You're going to be going toe-toe-toe with flipped Delvers, Anglers, TNN's, Goyfs, Eldrazi, etc.

Combat Damage...: So, as I understand this, this is turning off opposing creatures' protections, for the most part. This is pretty darn good because it means that all your creatures are live against Mother of Runes, Giver of Runes, and more importantly, TNN. So, your 1/1's can kill TNN...


So, overall, the card seems great on its own in addition to being part of a team. I'm going to try as a 2-of.

-Matt

sdematt
09-12-2019, 12:53 PM
So in case you're going to say, "but this card just dies to STP/Fatal Push/Assassin's Trophy," you aren't wrong, but that doesn't mean it's a bad card. They still have to try and remove your other creatures as well.

I think if you're going for a BG Grind value Nic Fit, I think there's an easy shell in something LIKE the following:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage-type card
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Tel-Noth
1 Yawgmoth, Thran Physician
2 Questing Beast
1 Shifting Ceratops
1 Deep Woods Hermit (or whatever the new guy is called, token generation)
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
16

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Once Upon a Time
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Assassin's Trophy
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
21

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Prismatic Vista
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Swamp
4 Forest
4 Bayou
21

Obviously with room for spicier black cards, maybe like Plague Engineer, etc.

kombatkiwi
09-17-2019, 01:27 AM
There was a guy at locals a couple of weeks ago playing a version of the deck with Urza's Bauble because it helps to peep your opponent's hand with therapy.
It also has synergy with Glissa the Traitor and helps with Delirium for Ishkanah (instead of whatever Hermit) and Traverse.
Crop Rotation seems really good at the moment with Depths being a significant part of the meta and because this deck can play so many legends itself now (Meren/Ishkanah/Yawgmoth/Beast/Glissa), Karakas is also really good just as a defensive tool.
Traverse also can act a bit like a Crop Rotation if needed, while not being vulnerable to countermagic and searching for any creature.

It seems like a reasonable place to start a list.
The player I refer to was using Living Wish instead of Traverse but I think 2 mana vs 1 is a big difference and the utility of a wishboard is somewhat diminished when your deck already has GSZ in it

Mr. Safety
09-17-2019, 06:52 AM
I always liked Crop Rotation for getting Phyrexian Tower alone, but I also had karakas main and Bog sideboard. I played 2 in Rhino fit back in the days of DRS.

I think another card that really deserves a slot in Nic Fit, at least one if not more, is Elvish Reclaimer. It's another t1-2 play that can set up a t2-3 Tower/Karakas/Bog.

Scott
10-06-2019, 03:24 PM
This list (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-league-2019-10-05#ad_-) by 42AD that 5-0'd an MTGO league is pretty wild. Features 4X Wishclaw Talisman, 4X Guardian Beast, and 3X Karn, the Great Creator

//Planeswalker (4)
1 Ashiok, Dream Render
3 Karn, the Great Creator

// Creature (15)
4 Guardian Beast
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 Plague Engineer
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Veteran Explorer

// Sorcery (8)
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Thoughtseize

// Instant (5)
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Veil of Summer

// Artifact (6)
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Wishclaw Talisman

// Enchantment (3)
3 Pernicious Deed

// Land (20)
3 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Veil of Summer
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Culling Scales
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Mycosynth Lattice
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Witchbane Orb

kombatkiwi
10-06-2019, 10:26 PM
Lol fantastic
I had the idea of Brooding Saurian and that's almost the same thing (worse in the case that if you try to Claw for Guardian Beast it's "too late" for the control-holding effect to work, but otherwise it has the upside of protecting your Claws and other Karn-fetchable artifacts from decay and stuff)

Michael Keller
10-07-2019, 07:09 AM
That’s just fucking beyond awesome.

pettdan
10-07-2019, 07:29 AM
Get your Guardian Beasts now! ;)

Luckily there are white and blue replacements.. Padeem and hmm

Sloshthedark
10-07-2019, 01:34 PM
Thanks!, It was an idea I got when driving back from work (Guardian Beast is my petcard, the interaction is similar to Chaos Orb in Oldschool), build it in 10 mins, 5-0ed the first league I played it in, the other like 3 weren't that hot... the deck feels underpowered vs. Tundra+Walkers, inconsistent against fast combo, which both seem symptomatic to the archetype, but 99,9% what I've played in last 7 years was on Storm so what do I know... I might build it in paper randomly for fun but not gonna work on it online, I was just surprised ppl do not try building with Wishclaw more, did not see the Beast interaction before, so wanted to try it out...


Get your Guardian Beasts now! ;)

Luckily there are white and blue replacements.. Padeem and hmm

The point of the Beast is you keep the Wishclaw Talisman, building around it in paper can be quite challenging though

Michael Keller
10-07-2019, 03:03 PM
Well, Guardian Beast is extremely narrow in Legacy. This is likely the only home it has. So shelling out 300 bucks a piece is a lot.

mistercakes
10-07-2019, 03:27 PM
Thanks!, It was an idea I got when driving back from work (Guardian Beast is my petcard, the interaction is similar to Chaos Orb in Oldschool), build it in 10 mins, 5-0ed the first league I played it in, the other like 3 weren't that hot... the deck feels underpowered vs. Tundra+Walkers, inconsistent against fast combo, which both seem symptomatic to the archetype, but 99,9% what I've played in last 7 years was on Storm so what do I know... I might build it in paper randomly for fun but not gonna work on it online, I was just surprised ppl do not try building with Wishclaw more, did not see the Beast interaction before, so wanted to try it out...



The point of the Beast is you keep the Wishclaw Talisman, building around it in paper can be quite challenging though

needs more chalice :)

Barook
10-07-2019, 05:55 PM
I was just surprised ppl do not try building with Wishclaw more, did not see the Beast interaction before, so wanted to try it out...
People are simply not aware of the card since it's so old, obscure and expensive (in Paper).

Some kind of Demon Stompy variant might also be a home for the combo, especially as Guardian Beast protects lock pieces like Chalice or 3sphere.

pettdan
10-08-2019, 09:39 AM
The point of the Beast is you keep the Wishclaw Talisman, building around it in paper can be quite challenging though
Thanks for pointing that out, in my head it was just a weak Padeem. I actually re-read yesterday it but didn't realize that interaction.


Well, Guardian Beast is extremely narrow in Legacy. This is likely the only home it has. So shelling out 300 bucks a piece is a lot.
I was being ironic (hmm probably wasn't even directed at me but whatever), but I'm well aware irony doesn't translate well over public forums or more specifically between people who haven't actually met and now how they like to be ironic. It's funny though because most of my friends don't realize when I'm being ironic so I usually end up explaining that I'm joking quite a lot.. ;) I've been looking at acquiring Guardian Beast since it was about 100-150€ and sadly it didn't drop but kept going up. It has such a nice illustration..

Michael Keller
10-08-2019, 10:40 AM
Thanks for pointing that out, in my head it was just a weak Padeem. I actually re-read yesterday it but didn't realize that interaction.


I was being ironic (hmm probably wasn't even directed at me but whatever), but I'm well aware irony doesn't translate well over public forums or more specifically between people who haven't actually met and now how they like to be ironic. It's funny though because most of my friends don't realize when I'm being ironic so I usually end up explaining that I'm joking quite a lot.. ;) I've been looking at acquiring Guardian Beast since it was about 100-150€ and sadly it didn't drop but kept going up. It has such a nice illustration..

I think in the right deck it's perfectly fine. I think this is the only right deck for it, though. What I was just inferring is that if someone wants to play it in paper, they're going to have to shell out a lot for them where there's really only a single deck (this one, I guess) that it really works in.

H
10-08-2019, 11:12 AM
I think in the right deck it's perfectly fine. I think this is the only right deck for it, though. What I was just inferring is that if someone wants to play it in paper, they're going to have to shell out a lot for them where there's really only a single deck (this one, I guess) that it really works in.

Well, people have tried it in UB Tezz and I have dreams about a horrible RB Painter deck that would use it along with Wishclaw Talisman. But that price tag in paper! Regrettably I only own 1.

Sloshthedark
10-10-2019, 01:56 PM
Well, people have tried it in UB Tezz and I have dreams about a horrible RB Painter deck that would use it along with Wishclaw Talisman. But that price tag in paper! Regrettably I only own 1.

I think there might be a good painter deck for Wishclaw, I'm just dont want to torch more tix on modo, not sure about the Beast though both cards need some sort of acceleration, so a Stompy/Eldrazi Shell might work with a light B splash for both, I do have 3 Beasts so if I ever happen to run the 5-0 list IRL it I'll post here

Captain Hammer
10-11-2019, 08:53 PM
Anyone having success with Once upon a time. Finding a vet explorer turn 1 consistently for 0 mana seems good.

sdematt
11-20-2019, 01:17 PM
So, Wa6 is banned. How do we think this is going to shape up?

I think that we become a bit more well positioned if the meta moves back towards post-DRS ban. Since Wa6 is promoting more WL locks, people will move away from running more basics, and get more greedy, and then searching for basics for us is more profitable. Looking forward to this :)

-Matt

kombatkiwi
11-21-2019, 12:18 AM
So, Wa6 is banned. How do we think this is going to shape up?

I think that we become a bit more well positioned if the meta moves back towards post-DRS ban. Since Wa6 is promoting more WL locks, people will move away from running more basics, and get more greedy, and then searching for basics for us is more profitable. Looking forward to this :)

-Matt

I mean this is a nice thought and all but the top-dog of the previous format was already a deck playing 0 basics. If anything I think the situation for Nicfit gets worse because various control decks (with basics) become much more viable archetypes. I don't think a wrenn ban means everybody is going to suddenly switch to no-basic stryfo-esque 4c decks

Secretly.A.Bee
11-21-2019, 12:51 AM
Is there no SnowFit varient that could be pursued? Having another 1-drop that gives early card advantage, filters mana and opens up some other card choices may be advantageous here.

Edit: Neoform has been mentioned and would be on color with Ice fang coatl, tying into the snow theme...?

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Jain_Mor
11-21-2019, 08:24 AM
Has anyone done any testing with Once Upon A Time? Helps you find vets and phyrexian towers etc.

Michael Keller
11-21-2019, 09:55 AM
Has anyone done any testing with Once Upon A Time? Helps you find vets and phyrexian towers etc.

I've been playing it using a 3/2 split with GSZ/OUAT. It's been pretty solid.

Clabian
11-22-2019, 02:19 AM
This deck is super fun! When it got posted on the 5-0 dump I played it on MTGO. I have 2 4-1s 2 3-2s and a bunch of 2-3s. Haven't tried it since the b&r update but I did make some changes that made sense to me.
PS - I have a 100% winrate against storm...

Sent from my SM-G930VL using Tapatalk

Captain Hammer
11-26-2019, 04:22 AM
Is there no SnowFit varient that could be pursued? Having another 1-drop that gives early card advantage, filters mana and opens up some other card choices may be advantageous here.

Edit: Neoform has been mentioned and would be on color with Ice fang coatl, tying into the snow theme...?

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

And surprisingly no Rector lists abusing Once Upon a Time yet (helps find Phyrexian Tower, Rector or Vet on turn 0 for free, a great way to ensure turn 1 Vet, turn 2/3 Rector). OuaT could easily replace or supplement Living Wish in Rector Fit builds. They could run a full playset of both Rectors maindeck and free up a bunch of sidebord slots (for Veil of Summer) if they replace Wish.

I almost feel like Once was literally printed with Rector Fit and Maverick in mind.

And it seems strange that there are no snow Neoform builds of Nic Fit.

Innovation in legacy seems to have slowed to a crawl.

Blue adds...
Brainstorm - Great with all the shuffle effects the deck already plays
Neoform - Cheats out huge dudes fast, another way to kill Explorer
Ice Fang - Syngerizes with Neoform/Natural Order if we want to go that route
Oko/Jace - Amazing value walkers
Force of Will - Gives the deck a better win rate vs combo, works with all the blue cards I just listed

Captain Hammer
11-26-2019, 05:44 AM
Here is what I propose as an improved Rector Fit list...

LANDS
2 Bayou
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Ancient Tomb
3 Forest
3 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

CREATURES
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Academy Rector
4 Arena Rector

INSTANTS and SORCERIES
4 Once Upon a Time
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
2 Eureka

OTHER SPELLS
1 Sylvan Library
1 Evolutionary Leap
1 Cruel Reality
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Curse of Misfortunes
1 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
1 Omniscience
1 Overwhelming Splendor
1 Sandwurm Convergence
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

SIDEBOARD
4 Veil of Summer

I am wondering what to cut to make room for a Birds of Paradise maindeck. It helps ensure that we dont whiff and also accelerates us and let us make big turn 2 plays.

Birds/Hierarch has been infinitely improved by the banning of W6.

square_two
11-26-2019, 09:30 AM
Here is what I propose as an improved Rector Fit list...


Really would suggest at least something to lock against Storm or other non-creature combo in game 1. I don't like having to rely on constant supply of discard. 3 cmc "can't lose" Gideon and/or Dovescape would be what I'd suggest. Dovescape plays much better with 3-4 GSZ or another Evo Leap but it's still incredibly strong. Cut down on Ugin and Misfortunes and Omni is what I'd suggest.

Take my opinions with bit of salt, I never bothered with the Eureka lists. But I did a lot of Academy Rector. You've got to set hope on only a single Rector hit to do the job. IMO going for Omni so that you can cast walkers in hand is just redundant when you could either grab Splendor or Dovescape or Cruel Reality and win on the spot (or nearly). And Omni is redundant with Eureka - you've got to answer whatever they immediately dump on the table, and you can't just drop Omni and hope to draw into an answer. But balancing both walker and enchantment game-winners is a pretty delicate job.

But Veil is busted. Not sure what to cut but it could be a mb consideration.

Captain Hammer
11-26-2019, 10:37 AM
Really would suggest at least something to lock against Storm or other non-creature combo in game 1. I don't like having to rely on constant supply of discard. 3 cmc "can't lose" Gideon and/or Dovescape would be what I'd suggest. Dovescape plays much better with 3-4 GSZ or another Evo Leap but it's still incredibly strong. Cut down on Ugin and Misfortunes and Omni is what I'd suggest.

Take my opinions with bit of salt, I never bothered with the Eureka lists. But I did a lot of Academy Rector. You've got to set hope on only a single Rector hit to do the job. IMO going for Omni so that you can cast walkers in hand is just redundant when you could either grab Splendor or Dovescape or Cruel Reality and win on the spot (or nearly). And Omni is redundant with Eureka - you've got to answer whatever they immediately dump on the table, and you can't just drop Omni and hope to draw into an answer. But balancing both walker and enchantment game-winners is a pretty delicate job.

But Veil is busted. Not sure what to cut but it could be a mb consideration.

Thank you for the suggestions. Dovescape seems solid. Some questions...

If I cut Curse of Misfortunes, shouldnt I also cut Curse of Death's Hold? Hold seems pointless if you're not Misfortuning it out after Splendor. Actually the entire Curse package (except for Splendor) seems crappy without Misfortune.

Do you like the idea of replacing Living Wish with Once Upon a Time?

Also, how does Oko interact with Rector, if Rector is made into an Elk, does Rector still trigger when it dies/hits the yard?

square_two
11-26-2019, 11:26 AM
Thank you for the suggestions. Dovescape seems solid. Some questions...

If I cut Curse of Misfortunes, shouldnt I also cut Curse of Death's Hold? Hold seems pointless if you're not Misfortuning it out after Splendor. Actually the entire Curse package (except for Splendor) seems crappy without Misfortune.

Do you like the idea of replacing Living Wish with Once Upon a Time?

Also, how does Oko interact with Rector, if Rector is made into an Elk, does Rector still trigger when it dies/hits the yard?

Curse of Death's Hold is kinda up in the air after Splendor came out. I think with Plague Engineer in so many lists, people are steering away from lists that have too many X/1's.

I'd probably anticipate Wish and Once Upon a Time to be fairly similar...Once is smoother, especially in opening hand, but also simply casting at end step.

An Elk-Rector doesn't have any abilities to be triggered on death, they are wiped out. Would treat an onboard Oko as one of those situations where you don't want to play out a Rector without having Therapy in yard/castable in hand, Tower in play, or Brutality/Leap, etc. Treat it as active sorcery removal. Ugin should clean up both Elks and Oko pretty well though, since Elks are colored.

Captain Hammer
11-28-2019, 11:03 AM
Thank you!

Yeah decided to cut both Misfortunes and Death’s Hold for a Dovescape and a Eureka. Want to cut Omni too like you suggested but not sure what to replace it with. Needs to be a big game winning enchantment/planeswalker that I wouldnt mind Eurekaing out. Maybe Karn Liberated as a way to exile problem colorless permanents.

Captain Hammer
12-02-2019, 10:28 PM
So happy Once Upon a Time got banned in Pioneer (and Standard). Its price should plummet now making it much easier for Nic Fit and Maverick and Infect players to adopt the card into their lists.

Ensuring turn 1 Explorer/Hierarch is a huge upside.

Michael Keller
12-08-2019, 11:20 AM
Top 4’ed a Legacy 2K in Upstate NY with BUG Oko-Fit. (41 Players.)

Report to follow.

sdematt
12-10-2019, 11:13 PM
Top 4’ed a Legacy 2K in Upstate NY with BUG Oko-Fit. (41 Players.)

Report to follow.

Would be nice to have your Bayous so I could play this deck too ;) #saltynotsalty

Michael Keller
12-29-2019, 10:22 PM
Top 8'ed a 1K today with the following list (a modified version of a list I Top 8'ed with at an Upstate NY 2K a few weeks ago):

4 Ice-Fang Coatl
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Gilded Goose
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Plague Engineer
1 Thragtusk
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Assassin's Trophy
3 Force of Will
2 Drown in the Loch
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Oko, Thief of Crowns
1 Ashiok, Dream Render
2 Once Upon A Time
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Tireless Tracker
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
2 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor

//Sideboard
1 Ashiok, Dream Render
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Lost Legacy
1 Pithing Needle
1 Force of Negation
2 Tyrant's Scorn
1 Dead of Winter
2 Veil of Summer
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Carnage Tyrant
1 Collector Ouphe

mistercakes
12-30-2019, 08:00 AM
this list looks really fun. what are your thoughts on 1 of questing beast?

Michael Keller
12-30-2019, 10:45 AM
I cut it a few tournaments back. I just didn't like it, mainly because of Oko and Jace. Oko ticks up to six, and Jace to five, so although it can bash, the added clause in Legacy of (potentially) waxing a planeswalker in addition to damage - while nice - doesn't sell me on it in the 75 (or 76, in my case). I tried it and it didn't impress me too much, just a little. There were just other slots I wanted to fill to round out the deck.

It's probably somewhere in the 77-80 card range, though.

https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/80612353_1481145685367378_4647743926734684160_o.jpg?_nc_cat=107&_nc_oc=AQnuygSIIF5GBWIZ7r_aGoqVppKJ3V-a8IpgrNfF-jrAhupPaMW9XxRmyVjr9KVjyls&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-1.xx&oh=f4ae1d91d5c0be285e4056944e4061f5&oe=5EAD70C5

sdematt
01-03-2020, 02:08 PM
Arasta of the Endless Web tickled my fancy a bit today. Yes, removal, but interesting card nonetheless.

-Matt

sdematt
01-17-2020, 01:26 PM
No action on this thread?

Is there more action elsewhere?

I just wanted to get back on building Junk Fit for upcoming tournaments :)

-Matt