[Primer] Nic Fit

[JackaBo]

Understood: have you tried maindeck Humility? For me it becomes more and more usefull every game i play, giving you an incredible edge against many tier 2 and bettering some bad MU like elves, S&T and Reanimator for example. But the main point is its flexibility

Do you mind posting your latest list? I will try out different haymakers but to me the shell is the real question.

[LVA]

As for Vizier of the Menagerie - I got him on the field a few times, and the fact that it clears away excess creatures from time to time has won me a game or 2 b/c it helped me draw into removal in time. The fact that it doesn't cost life didn't hurt there either. Heck, at some point I could even use him to apply some pressure. I'm not sold on Vizier yet, but I don't hate it either. It's a nice lategame card that also tells you whether to fetch (or GSZ) or to wait a turn. Lategame that can be incredibly valuable.

I used to run Master of the Wild Hunt, mostly because I like the card and it acts a removal and just value against a lot of decks. With fatal push printed that is a lot weaker since it now dies to push and bolt, so I have since switched to the vizier and it's been solid. Dodging bolt is great, and simply "scrying" with shuffle effects has been really good. It can also help clear the top of the deck if you have a sylvan library. I think there is a place for it in certain builds, I'm down to 3 rhinos to make room for that slot so maybe that's wrong, but I have never needed the 4th rhino anyway.

[Echelon]

but I have never needed the 4th rhino anyway.

Yeah... Turns out you sometimes do need them all. A couple of days ago I needed (and had) 5. Sure, the fifth one was overkill, but the first 4...

All joking aside, I think it's cool you managed to incorporate one. Would you share your 60/75?

[LVA]

2 bayou
1 Savannah
1 scrubland
4 verdant catacombs
1 Phyrexian tower
1 voltrath's stronghold
4 windswept Heath
3 Forest
3 swamp
2 plains

4 veteran explorer
2 deathrite shaman
1 scavenging ooze
1 courser of kruphix
2 tireless tracker
3 siege rhino
1 Vizier or Menagerie
1 Sigarda, host of herons
1 eternal witness

4 green sun's zenith
4 cabal therapy
1 painful truths
1 sylvan library
3 abrupt decay
3 swords to plowshares
1 maelstrom pulse
1 diabolic intent
3 pernicious deed

I've been pretty satisfied with the spells and creatures in their current form. I've been think of going from 23 to 22 lands but that's about it. Sideboard has been changing a lot recently.

I'm also out of town right now so this is just from memory, so i have may have gotten some of the numbers wrong.

[jbone2016]

I went to a small local event today with Ari's monstrosity.

Losing to budget infect in 3
Beating Grixis Delver (blood moon, so good)
Beating 4 Color Control in 3 (He ultimated lily and split my lands vs Sneak and nahiri on 8 (his only beats were a DRS, which didn't race Nahiri.) I took nahiri and the sneak. Emmy won that.
Beating Elves in 3 (game 3, therapy his order, library, deluge to wipe the board on turn 3, Deed on one turn 4, Slaughter games for NO on turn 5.)
Losing to d and T in the top 4 in 3.

The deck has game for sure.

[MrIggins]

How were the Rhinos specifically? Did they fill in the midgame awkwardness?

[Arianrhod]

I went to a small local event today with Ari's monstrosity.

Losing to budget infect in 3
Beating Grixis Delver (blood moon, so good)
Beating 4 Color Control in 3 (He ultimated lily and split my lands vs Sneak and nahiri on 8 (his only beats were a DRS, which didn't race Nahiri.) I took nahiri and the sneak. Emmy won that.
Beating Elves in 3 (game 3, therapy his order, library, deluge to wipe the board on turn 3, Deed on one turn 4, Slaughter games for NO on turn 5.)
Losing to d and T in the top 4 in 3.

The deck has game for sure.

Stunned you lost to DnT, but Infect is, sadly, expected. Shaving a Deed and cutting back on the spot removal maindeck, while I still believe correct for the metagame overall, makes us incredibly weak to Infect where we weren't really before. Just something to keep in mind, I suppose.

[509]

The following 2 lists 5-0'd MTGO leagues the last couple of days:

BUG Pod by NicolBolas77 (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-ubg-38159#online)
This one seems really strange to me.
0 Strix. And what is that Tasigur for (can't be podded, sure it's only one pod but isn't Angler better)? Blue count for FoW is also only 15 even if you board in all 7 blue spells so you probably have to board in Jace against fast combo etc.

BUG Fit by responsiblejoseph12 (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-ubg-38186#online)
4 Probes seems interesting to me, I initially thought the card was one of the reasons to go blue but since noone else was doing it I figured the life loss was too great, synergy with Therapy is awesome however as every grixis player knows. I don't exactly get the Tasigur here either, I thought Angler was considered better in legacy because of Karakas, Smashers (rare these days) and Goyfs, is this different for a deck like Nic Fit that can reasonably expect to activate Tasigur (unlike Delver)?
E: Not sure how I feel about 0 Ooze in his 75. /E
Definitely nice to see another list with FoW do well, the deck has felt really powerful to me.

[Echelon]

The following 2 lists 5-0'd MTGO leagues the last couple of days:

BUG Pod by NicolBolas77 (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-ubg-38159#online)
This one seems really strange to me.
0 Strix. And what is that Tasigur for (can't be podded, sure it's only one pod but isn't Angler better)? Blue count for FoW is also only 15 even if you board in all 7 blue spells so you probably have to board in Jace against fast combo etc.

Redcap -> Thragtusk -> Tasigur works just fine if you ask me. I'd rather go for the Grave Titan, but that's just me.

[jbone2016]

How were the Rhinos specifically? Did they fill in the midgame awkwardness?

Pretty sure I went rhinos 3 straight turns to kill some one.

I also did sneak in a rhino to kill someone.

[tescrin]

I feel like Delve cards in a pod deck should be there to get you something ridiculous. Like using Hooting Mandrills->Grave Titan. That seems like a good use. Tasigur just there for value..? I guess. I mean.. in Nic Fit he may draw you two cards a turn, but Tracker can do that just as well, won't be bounce by karakas, won't be chosen by your opponent, etc.

[Bobmans]

I feel like Delve cards in a pod deck should be there to get you something ridiculous. Like using Hooting Mandrills->Grave Titan. That seems like a good use. Tasigur just there for value..? I guess. I mean.. in Nic Fit he may draw you two cards a turn, but Tracker can do that just as well, won't be bounce by karakas, won't be chosen by your opponent, etc.
Tracker stops the Chain. But Tasigur, Dead-Eye Navigator + Fierce Empath, Grave Titan, Consecrated Sphinx or whatever juicy seems like a good idea. Deadeye, bounce Empath, grab and cast Tasigur.
All in all, in BUG (Pod) DeadEye seems like to generate most value in this deck. Strix, Redcap, Thragtusk and whatnot. That is, if you got the Engine going.

OR how about Woodland Belower into Empath into Tasigur and pod the Woodland dude for Simic Sky Swallower


Stunned you lost to DnT, but Infect is, sadly, expected. Shaving a Deed and cutting back on the spot removal maindeck, while I still believe correct for the metagame overall, makes us incredibly weak to Infect where we weren't really before. Just something to keep in mind, I suppose.

Suppose you cant have it all. List looks funky as hell. My only real problem with the manabase is the Plateau.

[Dalton!]

Some thoughts about Sneak Fit:

Instead of Rhinos, can you see another creature that ist more on colour? A Huntmaster perhaps? He does not drain your opponent but gives life as well and produces intent fodder. You would not sneak it in but it is easy to cast.

What do you think about the ideal of splashing a Tropical Island for leovold?

Is Nahiri that good. I tested her and after that i believe she is good.... somehow...but more as a Sideboardcard if you fear your Sneak attacks will be the target of Surgical Extractions. I never managed to ultimate her. Never.

Nissa Vastwood Seer seems very good in this new Incarnation. She manages to hit your land drops. That seems very important to me. If she only could be fetched with the bellower

Massacre Wurm is doing well, atleast for me. Eating pyromancer Tokens and the pyromancer himself is fun.

Sylvan lybrary, night's whisper, painful truth, tireless tracker(s), Nahiri,... I have no idea what we should play. I testet everything but nothing compares to top.

[square_two]

Some thoughts about Sneak Fit:

Instead of Rhinos, can you see another creature that ist more on colour? A Huntmaster perhaps? He does not drain your opponent but gives life as well and produces intent fodder. You would not sneak it in but it is easy to cast.

What do you think about the ideal of splashing a Tropical Island for leovold?

Is Nahiri that good. I tested her and after that i believe she is good.... somehow...but more as a Sideboardcard if you fear your Sneak attacks will be the target of Surgical Extractions. I never managed to ultimate her. Never.

Nissa Vastwood Seer seems very good in this new Incarnation. She manages to hit your land drops. That seems very important to me. If she only could be fetched with the bellower

Massacre Wurm is doing well, atleast for me. Eating pyromancer Tokens and the pyromancer himself is fun.

Sylvan lybrary, night's whisper, painful truth, tireless tracker(s), Nahiri,... I have no idea what we should play. I testet everything but nothing compares to top.

I tested a version of A's list and also found Nahiri a bit under-performing. Not that I had the chance to cast her very often.

Right now I'm trying 2 Painful Truths alongside the 3 Rhinos. Only splashing for them and a canonist in the side to replace Chalice. Sideboard overhauled to better handle online meta.

Huntmasters could be nice alternatives, I haven't considered running similar numbers of them before. Intent fodder is a large positive.

[Arianrhod]

I'm going to be streaming a couple of different builds tonight. I'll post in here when I go live.

Huntmaster is bad these days. Losing Top means losing Huntmaster, effectively, since you lose the only way we had to abuse him (both to guarantee flips easily and also to accrue value while passing the turn to flip him). Even before, though, Huntmaster was falling out of favor pretty badly. He just doesn't keep up with the power creep in today's world.

I don't think Leovold is even playable in Nic Fit, tbh. Frankly, every single time I've seen a Leovold in play, in any format, on either side of the table, he's underwhelmed me. I know he's a monster in EDH but I don't consider that a format, so...bleh. If we were going to splash blue, it would be for Brainstorm, straight up. I don't even know that we would run any other blue cards. That, to me, doesn't fix the problem that Sneak is having, which is a mid-game power hole.

I like the idea of sideboarding the Nahiris, but that creates a problem with an already cramped sideboard.

My thought on flip!Nissa are roughly the same. She could be insane, but not being Bellowable is a huge drawback, and I don't think there's room for her, Empath, Tracker, and Witness.

[rubblekill]

To be honest I was quite "shocked" when Arian posted his sneaky rhino list, and that's because a couple days before he made his post I basically modified my GB list in the same exact fashion.
I put in a very light white splash featuring some rhinos in the main and 2-3 canonists in the side (canonist is probably the best card to play along with discard spells against combo); on top of that I put the 2 intents+arbor package in my deck.

My reason for putting in rhino was that he covers that sweet sweet spot between being a stabilisation tool and win condition; no other card does that in a meaningful way. Rhino does everything (duh): stabilises the board, gains life, attacks powerfully, scares the opponent. That's the reason I felt like I needed rhino in my GB list, and in my life in general.

However, I came to the realisation that I had a problem with rhino in my GB deck. Even a single plains in the deck was painful to have because he stretched my manabase (I play 2 hymns and 2 lilianas) in a way I didn't like. And my main goal for playing GB was having a lower curve, and having some 4 drops made the deck noticeably clunkier (probably Arian doesn't have this problem because his sneak fit deck is built exactly to have a bunch of 4+ mana cards).

For this very reason I decided to try to swap rhinos with finks.
The ouphe fills the role of the "wall", previously covered by rhino, but on top of that: it costs 1 less than rhino, doesn't require white, gains more life (=4. Yes, even if he somehow gets eaten by DRS: that green activation of DRS represents a +2 life for us because that same DRS could have drained us with its black ability). Bonus interaction with cabal therapy is nice to have.
To be honest the card is cheap enough and gives us enough time to move into the late game, and for these reasons I am happy with the change so far.
And I continue to believe that rhino is a "4 of or GTFO" type of card, and that means that I don't like splashing just for a couple of rhinos: if we really want life gain that bad there are cheaper options, like finks (or, if you like it, courser), that are functionally better than rhino at gaining life. I don't like less than 4 rhinos because its power comes from jamming rhino after rhino after rhino: that is the main strenght of the path of the rhino. Having 2 rhinos means that he is going to gain us some life and that's basically it; plus it's not like we have trouble closing games and we NEED to splash for rhino (and that's even more true in a sneak list in my opinion, but I'll leave every judgement on the sneak attack archetype to the experts).


Another thing that caught my attention is that Arian decided to try in that list 2 intents and arbor. Which is the same exact thing I changed in my deck, and to be honest I am shocked at how good that "combo" is.
I have always said that arbor is bad unless it's played with SFM and/or Meren, and I still continue to think that's true; however, since my curve is pretty low I haven't had a single problem with intent. I don't know if I would still like the card in a more conventional 8 rhino list, to me it seems like intent would be clunky in that deck: rhino needs more card draw to have more power (and to take proper advantage of all the life gain), intent seems better in a combo list or a list that has some sort of "bullets" to tutor for. This is the direction I want to take at the moment.

8 green fetches + 4 gsz means there are a lot of chances of sac'ing arbor to intent; sac'ing veteran to intent is the best thing this deck can do of course. In my experience in playing intent and arbor, considering I'm playing a clean GB mana base without crop rotation bullets, I have to say I'm liking the card a lot. The card requires to plan properly in advance what I want to be tutoring for, but when the path is clear demonic tutor is a nice decent magic card. I changed some stuff in the selection of removal spells I play to make space for more option to tutor with intent: at the moment I'm playing 2 decays, 2 pushes, 2 diabolic edicts, 1 maelstrom pulse (nice bullet to tutor for when facing a JTMS), and 3 deeds. Since everything is tutorable by intent, all these removal spells cover basically every kind of threat we need to eliminate, right?
Since I play 2 intents, finks gains more points even in this regard. Sac'ing finks to intent is a very decent option to have, whereas sac'ing rhinos or even a tracker feels bad.

I left one single scrubland in the maindeck because I think a very very light splash for white sideboard cards is bery beneficial to the deck, and it's basically free.
Canonist is good against all sorts of combo and elves, decks that are quite strong at the moment. Canonist + discard (including hymn) +extraction effects is the worst thing for a storm player. Against storm, after G1 my deck basically becomes deadguy ale with the explorer interaction as a bonus: very low curve (3 cmc max + a single solifuge as the only big win condition), hatebears, discard spells, extraction effects (lost legacy + extirpate). That's basically the strongest combination of cards against combo, and I have been very happy with it so far.

@Ralf: I'll try your jund suggestion when I'm done experimenting with GB stuff.

[Arianrhod]

Gonna go live for a while.

https://www.twitch.tv/arianrhodsidhe

I make no promises as to the quality of this stream, I've never done it before xD

E: we're done. Thoughts later.

[Arianrhod]

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
3 Siege Rhino
1 Inferno Titan
1 Grave Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Diabolic Intent
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Painful Truths

2 Abrupt Decay
2 Kolaghan's Command

4 Sneak Attack
3 Pernicious Deed

1 Dryad Arbor

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Savannah
3 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Mountain
1 Plains

sb::
2 Lost Legacy
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Blood Moon
2 Fatal Push
1 To the Slaughter
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Carpet of Flowers

Did two leagues -- straight bombed the first one with a Nahiri build (basically my last posted list before today). Some MODO problems, misclicks, misplays, floods, etc -- but more than that: the deck just wasn't very good. I'll give fuller thoughts later (ie, why Nahiri is bad), but I wanted to hit the salient points and then have an evening before bed, lol.

For the second one, I tuned up a little bit. I tried out a Kaya, which was good, but I don't think this is the deck for her. I also tried out a 1-of K-Command -- would've been 2-of, but the damn things are expensive on modo and I didn't have the ability to buy it on stream. It didn't come up that often, but when I did draw it, it was pretty good.

Philosophically, the problem that I kept having during the first league was that we kept getting incremental-advantaged-out of the game. Like, I'd look up and my opponent would have 4-5 cards in hand to my 0. Planeswalkers are obviously a huge offender of this -- although unfortunately we can't really run any of those. So I'm trying to figure out how else we can generate incremental advantage -- 2-for-1s, basically. To that end, I'm going to try the above list the next time I get to play. Double Witness, double Kommand. I shaved a Truths from my second list tonight because of space concerns, but I'd actively looking at putting it back in.

Not thrilled with the Decay slots, those might become something more advantage-y, hopefully creature based. The problem is atm that my curve is wonky as hell, so I'm really looking for more 1- or 2- drops, and most of the grindy options are 3+. I almost want to try Glint-Sleeve Siphoner. I'd love to be able to run Bob, but with the way Sneak is constructed there's no way in hell I can get away with it, especially without Top.

I'm also still unhappy with the Rhinos but fear they may be necessary. I'll probably try a list for science at some point with 0 Rhino, 3 Tracker, and see how that goes.

The Rhinos were, for what it's worth, very good on the evening. They won a lot of games, and they filled that midgame hole in a way that only Rhino really has been shown to be able to thus far. Tracker MIGHT be more what we're looking for, though, so I'm going to try that at some point as well -- probably rolling the basic Plains and the Savannah into two more fetches? Unsure. Having 7 basics feels important with this deck...not sure I want to cut one.

Also, Deed is just too damn good. I firmly love the 1-of Deluge main, but I don't think I can be without my 3 Deeds. Every time I'd discarded/used/had countered both of my Deeds, I really just wanted another copy in my deck. Now, the 2nd E.Wit might help with that. But, for now, I'm going back to the 3-1 split.

Also also, thanks to anyone who suffered through my stream. It's not something that I feel I'm good at or will ever be good at, but I have the ability to do it and it'll help the community I guess, so....meh.

[Echelon]

So... GB Fit wants to be Rhino Fit and Sneak Fit is slowly morphing into Semi-Rhino Fit..?

Cool.

As for Intents - they're crazy good. I'm playing with the idea of just running 3 in the MD, instead of the 2 copies of Painful Truths I'm running now. When cast early, it's a must-counter (or must-Stifle-that-damn-Explorer-trigger). Lategame it's a I-got-you-now card. It does force you to play a somewhat different game though. Much more like a combo deck - carefully and deliberately. It's probably not for most though.

[Fryer]

I've dropped the Oboro plan too. It sounded good but I've found it's too costly giving up land drops. If the CA is already coming you're just losing potential land drops, and if it's not you're still going to see a land every other draw, which means it's only worth .5 triggers/turn (per Tracker). It works better as another fetchland where you can generate two triggers upfront. The only thing I have yet to figure out is if I want a 9th green fetch (so it would only get green) or if I want it to be my other colors.

Have you done any testing with Urborg as a crop rotation target in your max tracker builds? Would let you hold on to fetches longer to maximize value. Possibly something but I always get stuck on the deciding on what to cut part. Not sure what other CR targets you run main and side.

[Bobmans]

Huntmaster is bad these days. Losing Top means losing Huntmaster, effectively, since you lose the only way we had to abuse him (both to guarantee flips easily and also to accrue value while passing the turn to flip him). Even before, though, Huntmaster was falling out of favor pretty badly. He just doesn't keep up with the power creep in today's world.


I disagree, Huntmaster didnt need top, it needed PFire more then anything. It still races fair decks and Burn and always happy to land it vs combo. DnT should fear the card and it doesn't care for TNN.

Btw, I tried your stream shortly after you mentioned it, but it kept saying offline.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk

[Echelon]

I disagree, Huntmaster didnt need top, it needed PFire more then anything. It still races fair decks and Burn and always happy to land it vs combo. DnT should fear the card and it doesn't care for TNN.

Btw, I tried your stream shortly after you mentioned it, but it kept saying offline.

Doesn't matter. Siege Rhino is there to solve all your problems.

We might have to start considering reinstating Ricardio as high priest for the church of our lord and savior, Siege Rhino.

[Bobmans]

Doesn't matter. Siege Rhino is there to solve all your problems.

We might have to start considering reinstating Ricardio as high priest for the church of our lord and savior, Siege Rhino.
On top of that, I'd rather play Groves then Pollute that manabase with White.

[rubblekill]

On top of that, I'd rather play Groves then Pollute that manabase with White.

But..but Groves is the exact definition of mana base pollution. A scrubland isn't exactly so problematic, and the same can be said for 1 plains, unless you play BB cards such as hymns or lotv.

[Bobmans]

But..but Groves is the exact definition of mana base pollution. A scrubland isn't exactly so problematic, and the same can be said for 1 plains, unless you play BB cards such as hymns or lotv.
No, Sneak builds are heavy on both red and Green, Scrubland adds shit.

[Ganfar]

No, Sneak builds are heavy on both red and Green, Scrubland adds shit.

Do you play Sneak Fit now?

P.Fire and Huntermaster is the shit :tongue:

[Echelon]

Speaking of shit.

The Pod lists - didn't we already conclude that the Delve critter plan didn't really work..?

I mean, if it would have we would've just gone Fierce Empath -> Tasigur into Elesh Norn or Empath -> Gurmag Angler into Griselbrand. C'mon.

[Navsi]

Man, I really don't understand what you guys' obsession with Rhinos is. Especially splashing them in Jund, come on. The matchup Rhino's presence improves is primarily delver, and if you want to beat Delver more reliably making your mana base way more clunky is not the way to do it. Just play more one mana removal spells (or decays) if the matchup is that much of a problem for you.

[Bobmans]

Do you play Sneak Fit now?

P.Fire and Huntermaster is the shit :tongue:

I play everything... Except Blue....
Switching to Sneak from PFire Jund was just buying Sneak Attacks.... lol

[square_two]

Man, I really don't understand what you guys' obsession with Rhinos is. Especially splashing them in Jund, come on. The matchup Rhino's presence improves is primarily delver, and if you want to beat Delver more reliably making your mana base way more clunky is not the way to do it. Just play more one mana removal spells (or decays) if the matchup is that much of a problem for you.

1 Plains + 1 Savannah isn't really that crazy. Besides the drain (which so far feels relevant every time it happens), my build being able to run 2 Painful Truths is pretty hot (and 1 Deluge, though that is less consequential). And not having to rely on 5cmc Thragtusk as the primary option for lifegain.

Will see how it goes after more testing.

What I've been surprised with, is how bad Diabolic Intent has been for me. Out of over a dozen matches so far, all it's done is screw me against combo when things don't line up as they should. Maybe just bad luck with those games - heck I faced back to back BR Reanimator last night and got owned, and that is after adding 2 more fast grave hate to my sideboard. Maybe it'll be sooner rather than later that I just breakdown and splash blue in Sneak Fit...just for Brainstorms.

Edit: The high points keep me going. Had a game against Merfolk where they attacked all-out thinking that they had lethal. Surprise! Sneak in Deathrite for gain 2, next turn I have lethal attack of my own.

[Luthiereisfun]

I'm not a fan of splashing white in Jund. Most builds I prefer stick to 3 color.

Regarding Rhino I think the lifegain is relevant and I think it craps all over TNN which is certainly not nothing.

[Ricardio]

So... GB Fit wants to be Rhino Fit and Sneak Fit is slowly morphing into Semi-Rhino Fit..?

Cool.

One of us.....one of us.....

[Ganfar]

I play everything... Except Blue....
Switching to Sneak from PFire Jund was just buying Sneak Attacks.... lol

I can get the deck also if I buy Sneak Attack. I have all the cards.

How do your deck look like? Have you posted it here?

[Dalton!]

I don't think it is right to turn Siege Rhino into Sneak Rhino. I believe we should stay Jund and focus more on making the Combo fast and consistent.
I will test 3 or more Tireless Tracker to drown the opponent in card Advantage and give them something to fight with.

[Bobmans]

I can get the deck also if I buy Sneak Attack. I have all the cards.

How do your deck look like? Have you posted it here?

obviously one would still require Emrakul, Fierce Empath, Inferno Titan, Woodland Bellower, Grave Titan/Wurmcoil Engine. Other then that, the deck shares the same cardpool. I sent you a PM with the list.

[Arianrhod]

Just 5-0'd a league with the list I posted last night. Didn't stream it because I didn't think I'd even have time to finish it, but it moved swiftly, so, hey.

Faced:

BUG Delver
Burn
Burn
Maverick
UR Delver

Kommand overperformed, as did the 2nd Witness, so those seem like good changes (small sample size, yada yada, but...). Rhino continued to be good, but, I mean, look at those matchups. I both kind of missed Tracker and kind of didn't. Painful Truths never got cast. Intent was great, as always, and both Titans got some time in the sun.

I continue to want to be straight Jund. But for right now, I don't think that we're there yet. Kommand was a very important puzzle piece, but there's at least one or two more pieces that need to fall into place before we can go back to pure Jund, I think.

[Brael]

Just 5-0'd a league with the list I posted last night. Didn't stream it because I didn't think I'd even have time to finish it, but it moved swiftly, so, hey.

Faced:

BUG Delver
Burn
Burn
Maverick
UR Delver

Kommand overperformed, as did the 2nd Witness, so those seem like good changes (small sample size, yada yada, but...). Rhino continued to be good, but, I mean, look at those matchups. I both kind of missed Tracker and kind of didn't. Painful Truths never got cast. Intent was great, as always, and both Titans got some time in the sun.

I continue to want to be straight Jund. But for right now, I don't think that we're there yet. Kommand was a very important puzzle piece, but there's at least one or two more pieces that need to fall into place before we can go back to pure Jund, I think.

Have you ever considered Trinisphere?

[Arianrhod]

Have you ever considered Trinisphere?

In some of the colorless builds as a sideboard option, yeah. It's not awful and probably better with Dryad Arbor in the deck now, giving a ton of paths to 3 mana on turn 2. I'm unsure if it's better than anything else in the board currently, though.

[pettdan]

@Arianrhod: very nice streaming yesterday, I was watching too. Do keep us posted!

I was wondering if you ever tried replacing tops with 2 Coursers and 1 Tracker (presumably next to the one already in most lists)? I've wanted to try it but haven't gotten around to it yet, it just seems that gaining life, providing a good blocker while also helping manipulate card draw and providing card advantage (that's the Courser, yes) should help the game plan in multiple ways. And since the second Courser in play is not very useful I thought the Trackers would be good, especially since Courser is a must-remove so the Tracker may stay around and she either way has synergy with the Courser. I would see Courser in the Sneaky Fit list as a Rhino with card advantage, of course Rhino wins games but in a Sneak Attack list its primary reason for inclusion is surviving the mid game with life gain and being a good blocker - dealing damage is not to be neglected but Courser comes cheaper, without splashing AND providing card advantage. Now I think I just convinced myself to try the list with Coursers over a Rhino, too.

[Arianrhod]

@Arianrhod: very nice streaming yesterday, I was watching too. Do keep us posted!

I was wondering if you ever tried replacing tops with 2 Coursers and 1 Tracker (presumably next to the one already in most lists)? I've wanted to try it but haven't gotten around to it yet, it just seems that gaining life, providing a good blocker while also helping manipulate card draw and providing card advantage (that's the Courser, yes) should help the game plan in multiple ways. And since the second Courser in play is not very useful I thought the Trackers would be good, especially since Courser is a must-remove so the Tracker may stay around and she either way has synergy with the Courser. I would see Courser in the Sneaky Fit list as a Rhino with card advantage, of course Rhino wins games but in a Sneak Attack list its primary reason for inclusion is surviving the mid game with life gain and being a good blocker - dealing damage is not to be neglected but Courser comes cheaper, without splashing AND providing card advantage. Now I think I just convinced myself to try the list with Coursers over a Rhino, too.

Might be worth a shot. Courser has underwhelmed in the past, but so did Kommand when we tried it pre-Top era, and Kommand seems great now.

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Eternal Witness
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Fierce Empath
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Inferno Titan
1 Grave Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Diabolic Intent
1 Toxic Deluge

2 Abrupt Decay
2 Kolaghan's Command

4 Sneak Attack
3 Pernicious Deed

1 Dryad Arbor

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain

sb::
2 Lost Legacy
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Blood Moon
2 Fatal Push
1 To the Slaughter
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Carpet of Flowers

This is where I'm currently looking at for a list without any white in it -- so you could say this is the target list. I don't know if it'll work yet or if we need to figure out more things, but it's a rough goal.

Quick hits:

-) Deathrite has underwhelmed me for the last time. Without the Rhinos in the deck to necessitate the extra fringe white source, I'm over this guy. I'm not even sure why were were still running him in the first place after Miracles went away. Moving this slot to Scavenging Ooze, which is a card that I've historically also disliked. I think that fringe graveyard advantages are becoming much more important, though -- Snapcaster, Renegade Rallier, etc. Ooze gives us a way to fight their graveyard-based card advantage. It's also obviously fringe useful against other things in the format, like lands, storm, reanimator, etc (at least in a % of games where we don't just die / they don't just have it).

-) Trackers -- I didn't super miss him when I ran 5-0 without one in the list, but I think that they might be the best thing we've got to fill that midgame hole left behind without Rhino. Thrag comes back for the same reason -- midgame dude, gains life. Ooze also helps with the lifegain a bit. They're not Rhino, though :(

-) Meren is back. I think that Kommand helps push her a bit, since there's more ways of reviving her if she dies, and Meren + E.Wit (of which there is a 2nd copy now) has always been nonsense. At the end of the day, she's still good card advantage and a value monster, and that's what we're in the market for at the moment. Some of my decision here is that between my three leagues I've played so far, I've had Deathrite Shaman survive / activate a very small handful of times. The deck is very, very hostile to Deathrite's survival, which I think might mean we can get away with Meren.

-) Thorn in the board is likely wrong, but I'm lazy and about to head out the door, so I can't think of anything better. I do like the idea of 3ball, but at the same time I don't feel like it affects a ton of decks, it plays super poorly with Vet vs combo, and it can't be played off t1 Vet t2 Intent. I THINK Hymn to Tourach as a singleton is actually the best use of this slot, but I need to ponder that a bit more before putting it in.

-) Duskwatch Recruiter is on my radar. I think that he'll probably miss too often to justify running him, but he's on the table for consideration if anyone wants to try him and report back.

[Kanti]

Philosophically, the problem that I kept having during the first league was that we kept getting incremental-advantaged-out of the game. Like, I'd look up and my opponent would have 4-5 cards in hand to my 0. Planeswalkers are obviously a huge offender of this -- although unfortunately we can't really run any of those. So I'm trying to figure out how else we can generate incremental advantage -- 2-for-1s, basically. To that end, I'm going to try the above list the next time I get to play. Double Witness, double Kommand. I shaved a Truths from my second list tonight because of space concerns, but I'd actively looking at putting it back in.


2-for-1's is definately where it's at, but have you thought of something more crude, like slapping down a Phyrexian Arena? Sure, the double black is annoying, but have that thing stick for a couple of turns and there is no way in hell you aren't pulling out ahead. Another boon to it is you aren't waiting for your opponent to do something so you can 2-for-1 them, but rather laying down this oppresive enchantment that if left unanswered will be a one-sided Howling Mine. A very, very grindy card.

Also, maybe something like a 1-of Grim Harvest? Return something to your hand late game, and just keep up enough mana to keep recovering that thing. Totally combos with your Sneak Attack, as well, letting you chain creatures depending on how much mana you have.

[509]

Yet another BUG list 5-0'd a league:

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-06-02

4 Deathrite, 3 Tracker and a Reanimate main.

[TheRedMenace]

Yet another BUG list 5-0'd a league:

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-06-02

4 Deathrite, 3 Tracker and a Reanimate main.

That was me! Haha. We posted our league run here!

https://youtu.be/aanK82-8duQ?list=PLp4EoCjqtKiF58cLwY2mrmbMgisDxFpM6

Check it out! :) It was a lot of fun to make.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dalton!]

The K-commands are an awesome idea. Can Collective Brutality be another addition to the deck? Maybe instead of the Thoughtseize? As a discard that can trigger your Vet.

Perhaps Vital Force can return to the Deck? She would be another source that could recover things from the grave.

I was although thinking of just playing the list from the primer with the intent package instead of top. Can still work i think. Maybe we are tinkering too much...

Edit: I testet Arianrhods last Jund only list and it was very smooth.

- Double Witness and K-commands were very, very good.
- Grave Titan is nice and won 1-2 games. Could Wurmcoil be better? I am not complete sold on Grave Titan.
- 3 Deed, 1 Deluge seems perfect
- Double Tracker good, too. Maybe Flip Nissa here. Maybe not. Returning them with K-comands ist bonkers
- Never played Meren
- I dropped the Decays for Vital Force and Rune Scarred Demon. Never drew Nissa, but the Demon is promissing, but costing 7 costed ne a game.
- no Deathrite, no problem

[Brael]

Played a little bit of Legacy at FNM last night. Didn't have my deck together yet, because I wasn't expecting to get any rounds in so it was still in a pre SDT ban state (I've been lazy about assembling something. I hastily threw some cards together consisting of what I had in GB Fit and some cards that I'm sort of half heartedly building Maverick with. I don't have a full list offhand, but it's still in my deckbox so if someone is curious I can pull it out and list it.

The town I'm living in for the summer has a pretty undeveloped/casual scene. They don't really play Legacy other than a couple people at the beginning or end of Modern FNM's. Most people who play, play cheap combo decks that try to win through variance and dodging FoW. I ended up playing three rounds and played against Tin Fins, Show and Tell, and BR Reanimator. Naturally, me playing a fair non blue deck while they played degenerate combo decks means I won all three rounds, and I didn't even have a sideboard.

Just goes to show how good my GB version is against combo I suppose. Also, I finally collected my store credit for the big Legacy League I've been doing the past couple months (organized through another store which does have Legacy). I ended up splitting into first place so I've got a good chunk of store credit to burn on something now. Sadly, the store just ebayed all their legacy cards aside from ABU's so I have no idea what to buy. Previously I had my eye on a playset of Sneak Attacks.

[MrIggins]

- Grave Titan is nice and won 1-2 games. Could Wurmcoil be better? I am not complete sold on Grave Titan.


I was the one who initially made this swap and talked it up to A, my reasoning is this: both auto-win a decent amount of the time but have trade offs. Grave Titan leaves behind more power if it gets snuck in, and presents a significantly faster clock when that's what matters. Wurmcoil is practically unraceable but much worse against Swords to Plowshares etc. My local metagame plays a lot of BUG and a good amount of reanimator, with a sprinkling of new miracles and other Nic Fit decks so Titan was a much better call for my area. He kills em dead faster, so turboing him out is better against reanimator, and he's much better off an opposing Show and Tell. I think Bellower is core and you can choose 2 of Grave Titan, Wurmcoil Engine, Inferno Titan to suit your metagame and be fine. All have their spots where they're the best one to have.

Glad to hear the K Commands are playing well. I've put the deck down for a bit for a little variety and haven't been playing much recently anyhow, but I'm still very convinced that the shell is really powerful. It definitely needs some tuning but it sounds like this was a step in the right direction.

[adrieng]

Hi,

I am a dark depth player and I am testing a brew which seems ok with the interaction of demonic pact +harmless offering ; I don't know why you guys don't play it demonic pact is close to a one off win game breaking card, you draw cards kill stuff discard hand then give it to opponent who just loses.

So here is the brew, in testing I found it a bit slow and lacks disruptions against fast combo but it is certianly better than most nic fit list. Burning wish is there to find harmless offering while not being dead.

Deck is ok but things I don't like : basic mountain second swamp, 4 gsz might be too much, i might lack targets.
Diabolic intent and khalni garden are awesome ; 4 might be a little too much (for garden)



// 60 Maindeck
// 9 Creature
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness

// 4 Enchantment
4 Demonic Pact

// 4 Instant
4 Crop Rotation

// 25 Land
2 Thespian's Stage
3 Dark Depths
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Blooming Marsh
4 Khalni Garden
4 Mana Confluence
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Maze of Ith

// 18 Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Diabolic Intent
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Burning Wish


// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Artifact
SB: 1 Sphere of Resistance
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Pithing Needle

// 1 Creature
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage

// 2 Instant
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction

// 2 Land
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Maze of Ith

// 7 Sorcery
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Harmless Offering
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Reverent Silence
SB: 1 Firebolt
SB: 1 Lost Legacy





Edit : yeah was brewing actually I think demonic is better than both sneak atack and scapeshift cause it is a one card combo (you need 8 lands with scapeshift and sneak needs a creature); it makes you draw 2 cards and have turn to find the combo, but in testing I found it worse than my version of classic dark depth. I don't think nic fit is playable anyway 4cc cards are too expensive for this format and the format is faster than before because of miracle left

[Echelon]

I'd run Arbor over Khalni. Arbor can be GSZ'd, (on turn 1 for example, to speed you up a turn if unanswered), Khalni can't.

Not to be a dick, but in what regard do you think this is an improvement over, say, Scape Fit? Scapeshift says I kill you here and now, Dark Depths says I kill you on my next attack if you don't have a blocker.

[Dalton!]

I don't think demonic pact is legacy playable in any way. Not in a competitiv Level.
For the same manacost you get Sneak Attack or Scapeshift. Both can win you the game right after resolving. The Pact however can very well cost you a game. It is a Combo that if the opponent has a counter may kill you.

What i really like is how this Combo can make memorable moments in the game. Keep brewing

[Bart]

Played Sneak Fit yesterday at the GP Amsterdam Legacy side event and it was a blast to play again. I went 2 -2 with this list:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Wood Elves
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
1 Fierce Empath
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Inferno Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Sneak Attack
2 Toxic Deluge
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Commune with the Gods
2 Sylvan Library
1 Nissa, Vital Force

1 Dryad Arbor

2 Bayou
2 Taiga
2 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Phyrexian Tower

SB
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
1 To the Slaughter
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Trial of Ambition
2 Lost Legacy
2 Engineered Plague
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Blood Moon
1 City of Solitude


Got paired against Elves (2-1), Storm (1-2), Deathblade (2-0) and Turbo Depths (0-2).

As you can see, still having some trouble against combo decks. Had some bad luck against storm not having my last mana for the 1-of Deed I left in my deck so I couldn't suvive a second attack by 14 of his Empty the Warrens tokens.

I wanted to try Trial of Ambition as a sideboard card against Show & Tell but against Turbo Depths, I desperately needed a copy of Diabolic Edict that I didn't draw. Never got paired against S&T so I will change the number of Edicts to 3 now (including To the Slaughter) since instant Edict is good against both decks.

I included City of Solitude as a way to fight counterspell heavy decks. My friend playing Deathblade against me countered it because if he didn't, he couldn't counter my Sneak Attacks or mass removal. Card is good.

The 1 Commune with the Gods was pretty good too. The deck is pretty enchantment heavy and I still play 3 Deeds main beacuse I Expected a lot of Delvers and True Names. It can also find much of the enchantment-hate after sideboarding. I managed to get Therapy in my graveyard by Commune once during the tourney which proved usefull as well. I tried 2 copies before but I think 1 is the right number, leaving the best work for Sylvan Library.

For this purpose and for speeding up the deck, I shaved 1 Diablolic Intend and added another Phyrexian Tower. Unfortunately, Tower didn't show up much when I needed the boost early game. I am a big fan of Intend but I have experience before I drew an Intend (while almost losing the game) and not having a creature to sac to it. That feeled realy bad.. I decided that I'd rather experience that turn 2 Emrakul again (which I didn't yesterday...)

As you can see I cut the Eternal Witness completely and added Nissa Vital Force back into the main. With no cheap spot-removal in my deck I figured that if I would want a card back from the yard, I might as well take more than 1 over a few turns. I also cut the Tracker completely so I am low on actual card draw, thinking Nissa and her fast emblem also fulfilles that role. Unfortunately she never came up once and I side her out against combo. But I will definately try her again as she has proved very usefull to me in the past, not only against Miracles. A 5/5 haste after Deeding of Deluging the board is still very good pressure.

I really was not that affraid of double Nissa problems. If Flip Nissa finds me the Forest, I am already happy. I think more ramp is what the decks needs (Wasteland is a bitch) so I added the best ramp available.

It was the fourth time I brought Sneak Fit to a tournament and I will definately play the deck again.

[andy]

I've been tinkering with a Nic Fit/Stax hybrid taking advantage of the synergies between Tireless Tracker, The Gitrog Monster, Smokestack, and Crucible of Worlds. One problem Stax decks often have is that they're weak to early resolved threats, and Smokestack on 1 counter usually won't force the opponent to sacrifice permanents fast enough to stay alive. With lots of permanent generation (via tokens, extra lands, and replaying lands), this deck can usually let Smokestack go up to 2 or 3 counters. Also, the deck can crowd the board to block early threats and give time to set up. Alternatively, with the right hand you can play like a more traditional Nic Fit, and let a monster like Titania just take over the game. I think this is pretty fun to play, but I don't have Magic online, and I happen to live somewhere with no Legacy whatsoever. So I thought I'd leave a deck list here for anyone who might be interested:

Stax Fit

3 Veteran Explorer
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Glissa, the Traitor
1 The Gitrog Monster
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Garruk Relentless

3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Collective Brutality

4 Smokestack
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Trinisphere

4 Mox Diamond
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Ancient Tomb
2 Wasteland
1 Buried Ruin
1 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
1 Inventors' Fair
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Swamp


Fatal Push should maybe replace Abrupt Decays. The main thing you want removal for is an early, cheap creature. Once Smokestack hits, you hopefully don't need removal anymore. I'm not sure whether the 1 cc of Fatal Push is more valuable than the fact that Decay can't be countered. I don't really like the Trinispheres, considering the Explorers, Therapies, and Mox Diamonds. But I want there to be something in the deck for combo game 1, and it can turn a soft Smokestack lock into a hard lock.

[Arianrhod]

Going to stream sometime this afternoon/evening. I'll post again when it goes up.

[sdematt]

Been liking Night's Whisper, tbh. You rarely play it in Daze range, and 2 life is hardly ever relevant. 4 Truths was way too many, so Im on 2 Sylvan/2 NW/2 Truths.

[Dalton!]

Is it me or is the "new" Miracles Deck near to unbeatable with Sneak Fit? Carpets and Chandra Flamecaller in the SB don`t help neither.

Honest Question: Why don`t we play the List from the Primer? -3 Top -1 Land +2 Intent +1 PainfulTruth +1 Dryad Arbor.

...man i wish Top was still around. That Deck was perfect...

[Arianrhod]

Going live.

https://www.twitch.tv/arianrhodsidhe

[jbone2016]

From Joe Lossett Twitter yesterday.
My board state vs grixis delverhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170605/d985af20a10723b5793871021a49213b.jpg

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[Arianrhod]

From Joe Lossett Twitter yesterday.
My board state vs grixis delverhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170605/d985af20a10723b5793871021a49213b.jpg

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Guessing you won that game.

Also, stream's over.

Brief thoughts:

Inferno is probably getting replaced -- not good enough vs enough of the meta atm. I want something that generates card advantage or is hexproof, but not sure what that is atm.

Hymn and To the Slaughter have underperformed in the sideboard, they're on the chopping block.

Huntmaster might be okay as a 1-of. Tried him at 2-of and was adequately whelmed. But there were a nonzero number of situations where I wanted Huntmaster, so, maybe? Also tried a Nissa, Vital Force, since the Kommands are helping with creature flow enough that I've felt okay with the Intents and could try running one fewer creature. Didn't see her much, but she was good against Esper the one match I drew her (as I would expect). Unsure if there's a better planeswalker for the current metagame.

[Arianrhod]

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/149789354

Fast forward to 1:05.

Apparently I was playing vs Jarvis for my back-to-back DnT matchup. Be warned: there's an awful lot of people who don't know anything about the deck, and there's even more people (including Jarvis himself) who express an awful lot of derision towards us. It's okay, though, because after getting dicked by my deck in g1/g3 of match 1, we get our sweet 2-0 vengeance in match 2. No respect, though. Apparently winning thousands of dollars over a couple years with a deck you enjoy isn't good enough for some people.

[Dalton!]

Going live.

https://www.twitch.tv/arianrhodsidhe

Would you post a Deck list for us? And have you considered uploading to YouTube?

[Echelon]

So... I've been thinking. I'm going to run Mirri's Guiles in my Top-slots, or at least 2 Guiles and a single Intent. I don't like the average CMC of my deck being so high as it is now.

This'd put me on the following list:

Creatures (20!)
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Tireless Tracker
4 Siege Rhino
1 Vizier of the Menagerie
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

Pure removal/interaction (11)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed

Pure card selection (8)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library

Manabase (21)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold (Yes, I finally caved and got one)

This morning I finally figured out why I liked Top so much. It was another 1 mana must-counter spell to mess with my opponents' permission. Guile pretty much does the same (especially in the early game, since it doesn't need any mana to work). I mean, do our opponents really want to give us that much card selection? Yes, we'll blow up Guile with Deed after a turn or 2 but odds are your card quality by that point is good enough to start pulling ahead after blowing up Deed, so who cares?

Also, if Vizier doesn't work out in this build (which I kinda doubt), Stronghold's going back to being Phyrexian Tower #2. And/or Vizier is turning into a Diabolic Intent. Mana curves and all that jazz.

Speaking of smoothing out mana curves... Does anyone have any suggestions for some good 2-drops that aren't SFM, Bob and preferably green?

[battousai555]

Speaking of smoothing out mana curves... Does anyone have any suggestions for some good 2-drops that aren't SFM, Bob and preferably green?
How about Exemplar of Strength? It can be Zenithed for, it kills Vet, and it's a 4/4 beater. I just put it in my deck, so I'll have to test him a bunch. Makes sense to me because having a hand of Vet+GSZ with no sac outlet happens often enough.

[Echelon]

How about Exemplar of Strength? It can be Zenithed for, it kills Vet, and it's a 4/4 beater. I just put it in my deck, so I'll have to test him a bunch. Makes sense to me because having a hand of Vet+GSZ with no sac outlet happens often enough.

Problem is though that as a 1-off you'll often have to Zenith for it, possibly through Daze. That means your Vet disposer just got a whole lot more expensive (4 mana, effectively). By the time you get there you don't need that Explorer trigger that badly anymore. I've tried Starved Rusalka specifically for this purpose, but even that was disappointing.

[jarvisyu]

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/149789354

Fast forward to 1:05.

Apparently I was playing vs Jarvis for my back-to-back DnT matchup. Be warned: there's an awful lot of people who don't know anything about the deck, and there's even more people (including Jarvis himself) who express an awful lot of derision towards us. It's okay, though, because after getting dicked by my deck in g1/g3 of match 1, we get our sweet 2-0 vengeance in match 2. No respect, though. Apparently winning thousands of dollars over a couple years with a deck you enjoy isn't good enough for some people.

I apologize if it came off that way, but realistically, complaining about 'getting dicked by your deck' when you have 61 cards isn't a good way to go about things.

You likely have an extremely good D+T matchup though.

[Arianrhod]

Would you post a Deck list for us? And have you considered uploading to YouTube?

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Fierce Empath
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Grave Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Diabolic Intent
1 Toxic Deluge

2 Abrupt Decay
2 Kolaghan's Command

4 Sneak Attack
3 Pernicious Deed

1 Nissa, Vital Force

1 Dryad Arbor

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain

sb::
2 Lost Legacy
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Blood Moon
2 Fatal Push
1 To the Slaughter
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Carpet of Flowers

Cards in bold are the slots that I'm most uncertain about at this point / are most replaceable.

I'm also debating going -1 Bayou -1 Taiga +2 Foothills. That leaves us with only 4 duals, which I'm uneasy about, but might help thin out a little more and might also help make the color situation a little better, as it's been...not bad, but slightly awkward at times -- more than I would like it to be, anyway. It also rewards us for playing more Trackers, which I think is realistically the eventual endpoint of all of this experimenting -- 2 copies, anyway, if not more.

I doubt I'll mess around with Youtube. I would like to figure out how to do the whole "watch person's last broadcast" on twitch thing, though. Shouldn't be hard to do, I just need to do research.


I apologize if it came off that way, but realistically, complaining about 'getting dicked by your deck' when you have 61 cards isn't a good way to go about things.

You likely have an extremely good D+T matchup though.

I mean, at the point at which I fail to draw a color twice in the same match, when that's the only time across 10 matches where that happened that day, I'm sorry, but I'm going to attribute that to variance. Which certainly happens and is part of the game -- I just dislike it when such a small sample size leads to coloring peoples' opinions poorly. Nic Fit has had to struggle to be considered a valid deck for basically its entire existence, despite the fact that it's always been pretty solidly in the tier 1.5-tier 2 soup that a very large number of well-opined and prestigious decks occupy as well. I hadn't realized that so many people were still so scornful of it...perhaps it was naive of me, but I'd thought that had died out, or at least down, as time had passed.

It's possible the deck might run better in a modern context with 60 cards. I'll tell you this, though: the deck always used to run better at 61. I'll grant that we haven't tested at 60 since the Top ban, but beforehand, I tested extensively with both 60 and 61, and no matter which card ended up being considered the 61st, it was always important to have, and came at an extremely negligible hit to consistency...frankly not even noticeable. It's possible that without Top this has changed, though, and it might well be worth taking one of the floater spots that we haven't quite figured out yet and just removing it. I'm having to revise a lot of opinions in a post-Top world -- Kommand was tested and found to never be good enough beforehand, but now it's insane. I've hated Scavenging Ooze in Nic Fit for something like five or six years, but now it's actually been performing well for me, finally. There's a lot of changes happening, and I'm willing to consider that 60 vs 61 might be one of them.

DnT and a very good matchup for sure -- also Delver of basically any variety and Esperblade. Combo decks are very winnable (I beat Belcher and TurboDepths in a league a couple days ago, pretty positive record lifetime vs Storm of various types, beat Doomsday 2-0 in round 1 of the league I faced you in). RG Lands is fine to good, Sneak/Show depends purely on how their hand lines up vs ours -- we have draws they can't beat, and the opposite is also true. We crush Painter. Elves is a crapshoot 50/50 for the deck, but I can personally never beat it.

I'll just say this: if I didn't consider Nic Fit to be not only viable, but competitive, and if I didn't still top 8 tournaments regularly with it, I wouldn't play it. I'm here to win. I'll do it my way, but I will win. I recognize that the card distribution and card selections might look random to a lot of people, but trust as an outsider that more thought goes into every single slot in a well-designed and well-piloted Nic Fit decklist than most other archetypes can ever dream of. There are a lot of shitty Nic Fit players who toss whatever into their deck and call it good, but there is a world of difference between somebody who is playing Nic Fit casually and somebody who actually considers it their craft.

[MDHackbert]

4 Veteran Explorer
I doubt I'll mess around with Youtube. I would like to figure out how to do the whole "watch person's last broadcast" on twitch thing, though. Shouldn't be hard to do, I just need to do research.

This is where you change that setting on twitch.
https://www.twitch.tv/settings/channel

This is what it looks like on the page (link if the image fails to load)
http://imgur.com/a/ZfXZT
http://imgur.com/a/ZfXZT

[Arianrhod]

This is where you change that setting on twitch.
https://www.twitch.tv/settings/channel

This is what it looks like on the page (link if the image fails to load)
http://imgur.com/a/ZfXZT
http://imgur.com/a/ZfXZT

Awesome, got it. Thanks!

[Bart]

Hi Arianrhod,

I watched half of your stream last night and finally got the chance to see the deck in action by an experienced player, the inventor even. It was a very good watch, thank you! I will watch the second league this evening.

I'm not sure if I am behind the change of cutting Inferno Titan. That card has won me so many games and while fragile to StP, it is still good against Grixis and D&T. You also say your life against Elves is hard. For this reason alone I think it is wrong to cut it. Last weekend I faced Elves and I chose to search for Titan with Intend (over Engineered Plague) when the match came close to time. My opponent was holding a Rec Sace (I didn't know of so this decision was a good call) and eventualy Titan closed down the match for me in the 5th round of extra time, attacking for 10 + 3 trigger. I don't want to miss him..

What do you feel about Massacre Wurm instead of Grave Titan?

Against Elves, I always board in my 2 Lost Legacy, naming Craterhoof. This will make their Glimpses weaker. Anything that helps destroying their combo is good in my book.

Also, what do you think about cutting the targeted removal and up the mass destruction? I see you are back at 3 Deeds now already. I posted my list a page back and I didn't run the Decays nor the Fatal Pushes. Against combo, both are useless and against the control decks, we really need the 2-for1 or 3-for-1 CA. For this reason I played 2 Deluges main. I cut the 1 Eternal Witness but I am inclined to think this may be very wrong (now that I saw you ran 2). I decided to run Nissa instead to create card advantage over multiple turns and I saw you did the same already. I only really missed E Witness once when I ran out of fetch-targets for Bellower against Deathblade.

Kolaghan's Command is a good call and I wil try it out, thank you this brilliant idea. Eternal Witness becomes a lot better with this card in the graveyard, I now realise. I will also put back the 2 Carpets in my board to fight the control decks. Maybe I will run 3 as they are very important to ramp without the Explorers. And maybe, yess maybe, this will cause me to hardcast Emrakul for once in my life! Its a pipe dream, but a man can dream, right?

[Patrunkenphat7]

Close match against Jarvis considering the uphill battle with Nic Fit. Pretty cool to be on his stream though. Good luck in the future with the deck!

[Dalton!]

Mass Removal seems like the way to go.

3 Deed
1 Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

That as a package for the Sneak lists should be able to handle the most.


I would not cut the Inferno Titan, too. He is too strong to go without him. Broodmate Dragon ist good...somehow. But a sneaked-in creature should hit harder than him.


When i play Sneak Fit i always encounter always the same situatuations. A Jace i can not kill or me sitting there with no cards in hand and nothing on the field with an opponents hands full of cards. It is like i am runing out of gas or i draw the wrong half of the Deck.

Edit:
I`ve done some more or less intense testing and stongly believe that 2 Sylvan Libraries are what we want. It is the card that comes Top most close in controlling your draws.

[fireiced]

I apologize if it came off that way, but realistically, complaining about 'getting dicked by your deck' when you have 61 cards isn't a good way to go about things.

You likely have an extremely good D+T matchup though.



I'll just say this: if I didn't consider Nic Fit to be not only viable, but competitive, and if I didn't still top 8 tournaments regularly with it, I wouldn't play it. I'm here to win. I'll do it my way, but I will win. I recognize that the card distribution and card selections might look random to a lot of people, but trust as an outsider that more thought goes into every single slot in a well-designed and well-piloted Nic Fit decklist than most other archetypes can ever dream of. There are a lot of shitty Nic Fit players who toss whatever into their deck and call it good, but there is a world of difference between somebody who is playing Nic Fit casually and somebody who actually considers it their craft.

Well Jarvis & Kevin, we should not get pissed at each other as after all we all love Legacy as a format and definitely want the format to grow despite WOTC not supporting the format (bloody declining numbers of Legacy GPs). I also feel it is not cool of Jarvis to slam Nic Fit's penchant for going above 60 cards md, but we should all kiss up and make up :laugh:

@Arianrhod
- Removing Titan is fine, but like someone (cannot remember who) said in the earlier pages, Massacre Wurm is a great contender to take Inferno's place. I also like how it crushes Elf midcombo and other creature decks during their combat step via mid combat sneaking. There were times where I had Massacre Wurm on board and P.Deed the opposing board and won via Wurm's -2 life death triggers.
- I also love Vital Force, she never leaves her spot in my maindeck like eversince Kaladesh.
- I do not like Broodmate Dragon, I actually consider the tempo/board presence swing a resolved fatty (>4 mana) in Sneaky Fit
- I also play Blood Moons main for it randomly shuts down so many BUG bs in my meta
- I love the K.Command idea, will definitely try it!

[Arianrhod]

Going to stream a league this morning here in a couple minutes, but I'm not going to have mic/cam on, so it'll just be video. Since Hackbert showed showed me the setting for it to save videos, you guys should be able to watch it back later if you can't make it this morning.

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Eternal Witness
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Fierce Empath
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Inferno Titan
1 Grave Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Diabolic Intent
1 Toxic Deluge

2 Abrupt Decay
2 Kolaghan's Command

4 Sneak Attack
3 Pernicious Deed

1 Dryad Arbor

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain

sb::
2 Lost Legacy
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Blood Moon
2 Fatal Push
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Carpet of Flowers

Testing this list. I might regret only having 4 duals, but we'll see how it plays. I do have cutting to 60 on my radar, but I currently want to try this build before making that change.

[Arianrhod]

Got pretty thoroughly savaged in general in what should've been an easy league -- partially due to mental state issues (roommate + kitten being loud, my computer froze twice [although one of those was when I was done anyway]).

On that subject: I'm getting really frustrated that MTGO keeps freezing my damn computer. Doesn't seem to matter what I try -- whenever I play it for more than like one or two matches, it invariably freezes. My pc's like three years old, but it was a cutting edge rig that I built myself and it should NOT be having this issue, and no other game or program causes my pc to literally crash to the point where I need to power cycle it to turn it back on. Very angry about that.

As far as the list, I don't have enough data from one league where I got screwed and flooded a lot to come to a conclusion on the extra fetches. It didn't feel good, didn't feel bad. I drew poorly and played poorly -- not sure what data that translates to.

I do think that the Rec Sage can come out of the board. With the introduction of the Kommands, we have 7 maindeck artifact kill spells, and they rarely get sideboarded out. Sage's main purpose was a Zenithable Needle-killer, but I haven't found myself wanting or needing that effect. We lose some % vs Sneak Attack, I suppose, but we can run a better/more versatile sideboard card there, I think.

Jace is as much of a problem as ever. Sneak had successfully solved Jace out of Miracles, but with Stoneblade resurging, the card isn't as good vs Jace as it was previously, due to junk gunking up the board and blocking for the fuhrer.

I'm actually increasingly wondering about the positioning of Sneak Attack as a card. The combo has actually felt like the worst part of my deck for a couple leagues now. I keep flooding on Sneak Attacks, which don't do anything in multiples, and Esperblade as least can usually tank a hit from Emrakul and survive -- they have too many permanents. I do like what having Sneak Attack does for our combo matchup, since it actually lets us be proactive and capable of racing opponents instead of having to play the jund "discard you and hope your topdecks suck" game.

Huntmaster hit play once on the day and was alright. Not great, but not bad. I think that's just his lot in life.

I dunno. When I wasn't being screwed or flooded, it felt like I drew a lot of air. Like, I'd get games to the point where they were stable, but then just draw garbage while opponents draw gas, and just get out-muscled. I don't like that amount of variance, but I don't know what to do about it other than be more redundant -- which, in this case, may mean moving away from Sneak Attack as a card for a while.

I'll probably do another one later on today, but I need to take a break and cool off after that.

[MrIggins]

Won a couple duals today with a list that was almost identical to Arianrhod's most recently posted one, just a couple tweaks on duals vs fetches and only 1 Tracker to be at 60 cards. 3rd Thoughtseize over 2nd Lost Legacy in the board. Relatively small event in Rhode Island, apparently another legacy event being run nearby-ish so it was definitely smaller than the prize pool might otherwise indicate. Works for me!

Matches:
Round 1, Philip, UB Reanimator
Game 1 he has a few discard effects and never finds a monster, I have a pretty quick sneak->bellow->em. Game 2 he keeps a one-lander and Thoughtseizes me, then entombs and reanimates an Iona on red over the next couple turns. I get in a few points with a pair of vets and eventually find Empath for Grave Titan which lets me go wide on his board. His life total is low enough that he couldn't really attack with Iona for a couple turns and I am able to clinch it even through a Tidespout Tyrant. Points for Grave Titan!
1-0, 2-0

Round 2, Jeff, UR Pyromancer
Might have been Delver but I never saw one. Game 1 I get a little low taking some hits but my hand of 2x Deed demolishes his pressure and I chip him down eventually after that. Game 2, I get nickel and dimed out and die to Swiftspear and a few tokens. Game 3 I take a ton of damage from a Pyrostatic Pillar and an Eidolon, but so does he and I get in a good Deed and kill him with hardcast Grave Titan while he floods.
2-0, 2-1

Round 3, Billy, LED Dredge
Game 1 I have some stuff but he ends up killing me with Flayer of the Hatebound and Prized Amalgams after some token resistance. Game 2 is much better, I have turn 1 Vet into turn 2 Tower, Ooze with 2 green up and that ends up being enough. Game 3 I have turn 1 Vet, he plays Breakthrough for 1 putting 3 Narcomoebas and 2 Bridges into the yard with no dredgers to go with his Cephalid Coliseum, pretty horrific luck on his part. I Push my Vet to nuke his Bridges, Surgical his Ichorid, and Lost Legacy his Dread Returns on my turn 2 and he is never really able to get anything going after that, though he did almost kill me because I took forever to find action as well.
3-0, 2-1

Round 4 we are able to double draw into top 8 but the cut is clean enough that my opponent wants to play for seeding.
He's on Omni-Sneak. I win game 1 as he fails to find any follow up to his Show+Omni. Game 2 I die extremely quickly, game 3 I blind Therapy on Brainstorm and see Tomb, Show, Gris and lands. He rips Spell Pierce for my follow up Zenith, and I die. Oh well
3-1, 2-1

Draw round 5 into top 8

Quarterfinals, Josh with monogreen Cloudpost
Game 1 I hit a clutch blind Therapy on Crop Rotation and then Sneak->Emrakul him out.
Game 2 I'm not able to get much going as he sticks Needle on my Sneak, Ensnaring Bridge and Primeval Titan, and then starts Karakasing his Ulamog.
Game 3 I nail 2x Expedition Map with my turn 1 Therapy and that slows him down massively. I find Sneak, he finds Bridge, I set up Tracker and draw a couple cards and then go sneak in Rec Sage, kill your Bridge, sneak in Inferno Titan, 19 you.

Semis, Caleb with Lands
Game 1 is very academic, i have turn 2 Ooze which he uses a little time to answer and then I kill him with Emrakul.
Game 2 he has turn 1 land pass, I have turn 1 Vet. His turn 2 is Mox Diamond, Stage, go. I play Tower, sac my Vet, Decay his Diamond and slam Blood Moon. He Crop Rotates for Depths in response and I die, because sometimes turn 2 Blood Moon + Stone Rain just isn't good enough.
Game 3 I board in Thoughtseizes on the play and nab a Crop Rotation and Surgical it. We go back and forth for a bit, I use Sneak+Titan to clear up his Tireless Tracker and put him low but he has K Grip to answer the enchantment, I get in some beats and Witness back Surgical for his Loam, but he finds Gamble for Depths and keeps it in hand, so I end up being a couple points short.

Finish 4th and get a Plateau and a Taiga, so can't complain.

Thoughts:
-K Command didn't come up except against the Pyro deck where it was good. I'm happy with this inclusion. Second Witness is a natural fit with it and while having 2 never mattered, the card is just all around very good and versatile.
-I felt like I had the right amount of removal and although I didn't have the matchups for the sweepers, 3 Deed main seems fine to me
-With K Command, Meren is likely redundant. She never came up and I never wanted her. Boarded her out a lot.
-Huntmaster never came up today but I've been reasonably happy with 1 to fill some small roles as a Zenith target. Similar to Meren in that it's often medium-impact, but the clock it presents while bringing a Therapy body is fine in unfair matchups where Meren is just a brick.
-I did not miss Thragtusk at all.
-Ooze maindeck was good but I had good matchups for that obviously.
-Deathrite Shaman. I Zenithed@0 a lot today but a couple times that was actually better than if I could have gone for DRS. I don't know that cutting it is right because it does perform some small utility stuff.

Going to try something else over Meren, possibly the second Tracker or possibly Nissa in the maindeck, open to suggestions on other stuff of course. Deck still feels unfinished but strong. Inferno Titan was very good today as was Grave Titan so I like that mix of fatties. Not sure I'd want to cut the Rec Sage since it's tutorable but it's not unreasonable to lean on Decays and K Commands to deal with Needles etc.

As always I welcome your questions and thoughts.

[Dalton!]

I was playing Arianrhods list yesterday in a 87 LEgacy Tournament and i was devastated, too.

My list had some minor changes in it, but that were only 2-3 cards.

It feld very inconsistent and i found myself exact in the same positions as him. Jace feld unkillable, and i was running out of gas. Sylvan Library and Punishing Fire are definitiv coming back as is Primeval Titan. I believe Sneak Attack is still the way to goo, but maybe we have tinkered too much with the Deck ans should only replace Top with the Libraries and stay with the Deck that had succses.
The K-Command and the E-Ws are perhaps watering down the gameplan the previous versions had.

[rubblekill]

It's nice (kind of) to know that I'm not the only one that has been having problems with JTMS. Lately I have been trying a red splash (along with the white splash for canonist) in my GB Fit sideboard for 3 pyroblasts.
It sounds ridiculous, and it probably is, but a 1 mana vindicate for jace is kinda nice. Against combo decks 3 pyros are something decent to board in instead of the dead cards we have in G1. Currently my sideboard is the most hateful I have ever seen played in this deck.
The only card I'm afraid of in this new miracles decks is literally JTMS. If we manage to find the best way to consistently deal with him we can definitely solve that match up. 3 pyroblast is the most intuitive way I have found and that I have been trying. Time will tell if this is the Nth abomination I try in order to have a chance against cancer.dec.

[MrIggins]

Well, I was lucky enough to avoid Jace decks entirely but, if nothing else my experience has been that the current build has a strong grind plan and the tools to beat up on Delver and similar styles of deck a good percentage of the time (particularly with 3 Deeds main). If the Reclamation Sage moves out of the board we're at the point where the sideboard is some catch-alls like Needle, a pile of combo hate, and a few extra slots... why not make those to fight Jace? Needle is good there. REB would be great there, load em up! What else could be used to help beat Jace the card?

[rubblekill]

Well, I was lucky enough to avoid Jace decks entirely but, if nothing else my experience has been that the current build has a strong grind plan and the tools to beat up on Delver and similar styles of deck a good percentage of the time (particularly with 3 Deeds main). If the Reclamation Sage moves out of the board we're at the point where the sideboard is some catch-alls like Needle, a pile of combo hate, and a few extra slots... why not make those to fight Jace? Needle is good there. REB would be great there, load em up! What else could be used to help beat Jace the card?

Best Nissa, Sigarda (if you are in white), lost legacy, REB, (duress?).

I'm currently planning on having the best possible configuration in the main deck to fight everything beside combo, and dedicating everything in the side to beat combo.

Currently I'm feeling hateful

3REB
3Canonists
3Lost legacy
2Duress (4CT, 2lilianas and 2TS in the main)
1Teeg
3Extirpate (1-2 should be surgicals, but I'm not spending 35 tix a piece)


This is the best configuration that's humanly possible to have to fight against combo I think.
Sneak and show (a very common deck online) becomes a lot easier with this configuration: bears, discard, legacies, extirpates and REB??

[Brael]

Best Nissa, Sigarda (if you are in white), lost legacy, REB, (duress?).

I'm currently planning on having the best possible configuration in the main deck to fight everything beside combo, and dedicating everything in the side to beat combo.

Currently I'm feeling hateful

3REB
3Canonists
3Lost legacy
2Duress (4CT, 2lilianas and 2TS in the main)
1Teeg
3Extirpate (1-2 should be surgicals, but I'm not spending 35 tix a piece)


This is the best configuration that's humanly possible to have to fight against combo I think.
Sneak and show (a very common deck online) becomes a lot easier with this configuration: bears, discard, legacies, extirpates and REB??

You mentioned GB, but you're splashing two colors to try and deal with combo. I don't think that's necessary. I've had a pretty good combo matchup in straight GB without having to do that. Storm is still a bad matchup, but I beat it often enough.

Haven't tried the new Miracles yet, but nothing in it seems really dangerous. Losing Counterbalance makes it a lot easier to resolve cards.

[rubblekill]

You mentioned GB, but you're splashing two colors to try and deal with combo. I don't think that's necessary. I've had a pretty good combo matchup in straight GB without having to do that. Storm is still a bad matchup, but I beat it often enough.

Haven't tried the new Miracles yet, but nothing in it seems really dangerous. Losing Counterbalance makes it a lot easier to resolve cards.

I play zero utility lands beside arbor, no towers in my deck. I have 10 fetch lands, 7 basics 2 bayou 1 Badlands 1 Scrublands.

Every land in my deck is gb beside those two lands, I don't run hymn anymore so I don't need to pay BB until turn 3 or later.

It's 100% a gb deck with 2 non green swamp duals. I only need 1 SINGLE green in T1-2 for veteran and that's it.

Those 2 colors (white and/or red Swamps) are needed ONLY against non wasteland decks.
They are even arguably better in the early game than lands like the 2 towers against wastelands decks

Trust me, "you are splashing two colors" sounds more ridiculous than it really is.

[MrIggins]

Haven't tried the new Miracles yet, but nothing in it seems really dangerous. Losing Counterbalance makes it a lot easier to resolve cards.

You'd think that, but it can be actually harder. A lot of our stuff didn't care much for Counterbalance, but they've basically replaced Counterbalance and Top with more card draw, finished the set of Snapcasters, and more copies of actual Counterspell. Less virtual card advantage so more actual card advantage, which we usually give them the time to leverage. It's pretty tough.

[rubblekill]

You'd think that, but it can be actually harder. A lot of our stuff didn't care much for Counterbalance, but they've basically replaced Counterbalance and Top with more card draw, finished the set of Snapcasters, and more copies of actual Counterspell. Less virtual card advantage so more actual card advantage, which we usually give them the time to leverage. It's pretty tough.

This is exactly the problem. CA is now more than ever the way to beat miracles.
We didn't care about balance in the first place, terminus was always the problem.

[Brael]

You'd think that, but it can be actually harder. A lot of our stuff didn't care much for Counterbalance, but they've basically replaced Counterbalance and Top with more card draw, finished the set of Snapcasters, and more copies of actual Counterspell. Less virtual card advantage so more actual card advantage, which we usually give them the time to leverage. It's pretty tough.

Most of my stuff did care about Counterbalance because I go wide with a low curve.

CA is an axis I'm happy to fight on.

[Brael]

This is exactly the problem. CA is now more than ever the way to beat miracles.
We didn't care about balance in the first place, terminus was always the problem.

Sounds like a job for Bob and haste creatures.

[rubblekill]

Sounds like a job for Bob and haste creatures.

Yeah I knew how you felt [emoji4] you would like my current list as well, I'll post it someday

[MrIggins]

Most of my stuff did care about Counterbalance because I go wide with a low curve.

CA is an axis I'm happy to fight on.

You're on a different build than I was thinking then, and that could be the way we need to battle them in that case!

[Arianrhod]

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Fierce Empath
2 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Grave Titan
1 Inferno Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Diabolic Intent

3 Punishing Fire
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Kolaghan's Command

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sneak Attack

2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

1 Dryad Arbor

3 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills

sb::
2 Blood Moon
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Lost Legacy
1 Nissa, Vital Force
2 Pyroblast
2 Painful Truths
2 Carpet of Flowers

Here's where I'm at.

Rationale time (this is going to be long and theory-laden):

Facts:

-) Sneak Attack (card + strategy as a whole) is effective against combo decks, which we traditionally struggle against. It's also good vs the BUG decks, but those have dried up.
-) Sneak Attack (card + strategy as a whole) is bad against Delver (they can break it up too easily/are too fast, esp Grixis with Therapy) -and- vs Stoneblade of either variety (too many permanents in play, too resilient).
-) Sneak Attack (strategy as a whole, but not necessarily card) is effective against a wide range of random nonsense that legacy is known capable to produce. It's also effective against neo-Miracles once resolved.
-) Lack of incremental advantage is a huge problem in a Topless world for Nic Fit. We need to aggressively be looking for x-for-1s. One of the best sources of these advantages is planeswalkers. Kommand has been huge for this, but we need more.
-) Jace is still a problem. Always.
-) Multiple Sneaks is a big problem -- you need to see enough of them to resolve one, but also you rarely want to draw multiples and never a backup once one has resolved. It's a literal brick.
-) Multiple Intents causes a similar problem to that which we discovered when we went heavy down the Rhino train a year or two ago -- it forces us to run too many creatures, and 85% of creatures in MtG are bad. I kept junking up lists with garbage like Huntmaster or cards which, while good, are not really relevant for Sneak, like Thragtusk or multiple Trackers.
-) Punishing Fire doesn't kill everything. It's awful against Gurmag, and it's uncastable against True-Name, but it allows us to focus our other removal spells on keeping those cards under control.

Let's go down the list.

Core:

Sneak has a 21-card core, consisting of:

4 Vet
1 Empath
1 Bellower
1 Emrakul
4 Therapy
4 Zenith
3 Sneak
3 Deed

Beyond this, there are several cards which I personally consider core -- Eternal Witness, Steve, and so on, but which are not intrinsically required for Sneak to function as a deck. I believe they represent some of the best options we have for those slots, but, season to taste.

Ooze has performed extremely well for me -- he helps blank opposing Deathrites or Snapcasters in the midgame, holding down opponents' card advantage (hitting their 2-for-1s is essentially the same as us achieving a 2-for-1 ourselves). He's a second, bulky target for Bellower, he's an effective maindeck hate card in some scenarios, though certainly not as many as you'd wish him to be, and he's the second-best green 2-drop for us, I believe (I firmly endorse Steve for #1, ESPECIALLY with Blood Moons in the sideboard).

2nd Witness (we'll lump the Kommands in here as well) helps form a recursive core that generates us a lot of card advantage, especially when recurring other x-for-1s. Kommand has been absolutely asininely good for me -- it's one of the best cards you could ever dream of against Esper/Bant Blade decks, still good vs Delver, and works internally for advantage within our own deck if the matchup for it is poor. Plus, it has advantages like being insane against fringe decks like MUD. I can't honestly brag about them enough.

Tracker -- one is fine, more than that is bad. Good Zenith target, good Bellower target, honestly best when naturally drawn and not tutored for. I've tried numbers at this point anywhere from 0 to a full set, and 1 just feels the best. I think that the 2nd Tracker is realistically somewhere around the 63rd or 64th card. It's good, it's something we'd want given the choice, but it's not good enough to be pushed into the deck.

Grave and Inferno Titans: I'm on board with Grave, I'm still a little questionable on Inferno but he's undeniably powerful in certain scenarios. If we ever get another hyper-pushed 6-drop that's worth considering in Jund, ideally something that generates a lot of advantage as an enters trigger, Inferno will be the first to get dropped. Regardless, I do think that he's next in line behind Bellower and Grave.

Deluge is here because of the maindeck Intent, basically. If I was off Intent, I would be off Deluge as well (or, possibly, I would be on 2 Intents). Deluge has, however, been quite good. There's a lot of dorks and True-Names floating around, and having a faster way of killing them than Deed, especially with Stifle running around, is very important.

As for Intent, as I said, I don't think that we can really get away with more than one copy, as least for now. It's possible that if we get more pushed creatures in the future, especially lower cmc ones, that a second copy might be good. Right now, though, there just aren't enough high-quality creatures in jund nic fit to justify the second copy. The first is, however, undeniably good and pushes us to 6 sac outlets for Vets, which is a little lower than I'd like but is the best I can realistically accomplish at the moment. I will freely admit that when we were on 8 sac outlets (4 Therapy, 2 Tower, 2 Intent), the deck's mana generation felt AMAZINGLY smooth, and that is a concept that I will definitely be keeping in mind for other builds....mostly junk or BUG, which have the extra bodies to accomodate extra Intents.

Punishing Fire makes its triumphant return. Dalton's posts made me think about Punishing Fire again, so, props to him for that. PFire is still good vs Jace and other planeswalkers. It's still good at picking off Deathrites, Delvers, Pyromancers, Stoneforges, Containment Priests, Snapcasters, and Cliques. It does fail a couple of huge checks in the meta -- it's awful vs Leovold, it's awful vs Gurmag, it's unplayable (literally) vs True-Name, and obviously Goyf just laughs at it. But, as I said above, freeing up our other removal spells to be able to handle those threats is honestly worth it. I'd rather have a Deed or a Deluge for a TNN than be forced to use it on a board of Delver / DRS that PFire can clean up for me. It is, also, a source of card advantage -- a single Punishing Fire + Grove can frequently clean up 2-3 cards, at least, although it can be answered somewhat easily since we are not a dedicated PFire/Grove deck (only 3 copies of each, and no Loam/Knight of the Reliquary/etc).

Miser's Decay helps pick off errant early threats, but flexes to be able to handle equipment, Chalices, Leovolds, etc. I had two copies originally and had stayed at 2 for a long time, but in the end I needed one space and I felt the 2nd Decay was the weakest card in the deck, so it got the axe. I wouldn't fault anyone for running the pair.

Chandra is our Jace. I'm dead serious. Sam can attest that I was extremely uneasy about this card, because I'm seeing nightmare scenarios of flipping Emrakul to exile and breaking up Sneak chains. I tested a PFire list without Sneaks a couple days ago, and while that deck was questionable, Chandra overperformed to a ridiculous degree. She beats Jace TMS 1-on-1. Her plus generates a card while dealing 2 damage to Jace (redirect), which forces Jaces into the unenviable position of being forced to +2 to stay alive -- and +2 is bad vs us in that scenario because we're drawing two a turn. She's amazing against Liliana, as well, for much of the same reasons. Her -3 isn't enough to kill Gurmag, which is very unfortunate, but she can protect herself reasonably well, and the amount of removal we currently run, especially with PFire, is enough to generally run interference for her. Plus, her ultimate is game-ending, and comes online much quicker than Jace's (again, while keeping him unable to progress). I've also added 2 mana with her more times than I can really recall conveniently, usually to pump up a Zenith or Deed activation, but sometimes to be able to hardcast a Titan, break clues, or have mana floating against Pierce/Daze. Really, really good card for us and I would be tempted to run a 3rd if I thought we had room. I haven't flipped Emrakul yet, but if we're in a position to where we can safely +1 Chandra and keep her safe, we can easily just ride her to victory instead of Emrakul -- which is better against half the decks anyway.

The manabase is essentially what I was running before, except for one fewer Phyrexian Tower to help make way for the Groves. 23 lands including Dryad Arbor feels right -- every once in a while we'll flood out, which is unfortunate, but there's nothing we can really do to prevent it. I was on 22 including Arbor for a while and I ended up getting mana screwed and having to mulligan a lot -- it's amazing the difference that one extra land makes, really. I am still on 61 cards. I did test at 60 for quite a while, and I do think there is merit to 22 lands (again, including Arbor) with 60 cards. The 3rd Bayou is my "61st," and while I do think it is possibly fine at 22/60, I still felt like I was mulliganning more than I liked. I'll probably conduct more extensive tests of 22/60 or 23/61 in the future, but for now, I was much more worried about getting the rest of the deck hammered out.

The sideboard is arguably the most important part of the deck.

I don't think it's perfect yet, but, what I've been doing is thus:

vs Delver / Blade, I go AT LEAST:

-3 Sneak
-1 Emrakul

+2 Pyroblast
+1 Nissa
+ ???

There's other boarding considerations for each, of course, but the moral of the story is that I am boarding out Sneaks and Emrkaul in these matchups, and "turning into" straight PFire Jund. This has been very effective for me at managing the Delver and Blade decks that had been hounding me. I kept being like, these are good matchups, why am I losing? I think the answer to that was that Sneak Attack is, flatly, bad in those matchups, and having the ability to transform out of it for them out of the sideboard is excellent.

Also, Moon is amazing. Feels reeeeeal good to board in in some matchups.

I'm not convinced that the card selections are correct across the board...especially the 2 Painful Truths and the combo hate suite, but that's where I'm starting at and we'll work from there.

Anyway, this has been feeling pretty good and I'm confidant that even if it's not 100% perfect, it's damn close. I do feel like we could be the benefit of some good printings, but I don't feel hideously underpowered now, at least, like I had been for a while.

[Brael]

You're on a different build than I was thinking then, and that could be the way we need to battle them in that case!

Like I said, I haven't played against the new Miracles yet, I'm a paper player only, and just the local scene at that. It won't be until September that I can play a bunch of Legacy again when college is back in session.

However, when SDT was around, I did have a very positive matchup against Miracles going 6-2-2 against them over the past year. That could have been due to the pilots or it could be due to my builds but they never scared me. The only games I would ever lose were to a CB lock. The trick to beating them in the past was always card advantage. If you can draw two cards to every one they draw then it doesn't matter if they get the occasional 2 for 1 with Terminus, or stop a card with CB. Something would get through. I assume it's the same here. With a high card velocity they can't counter everything or gain as much tempo for each creature they deal with.

[Echelon]

This is exactly the problem. CA is now more than ever the way to beat miracles.
We didn't care about balance in the first place, terminus was always the problem.


Most of my stuff did care about Counterbalance because I go wide with a low curve.

CA is an axis I'm happy to fight on.

How about card quality rather than advantage..? Seriously, Mirri's Guile is a pretty damn good replacement for Top that still allows us to have pretty much the best library manipulation/card selection of the format, with all the shuffle effects that we run.


-) Lack of incremental advantage is a huge problem in a Topless world for Nic Fit. We need to aggressively be looking for x-for-1s. One of the best sources of these advantages is planeswalkers. Kommand has been huge for this, but we need more.
...
-) Multiple Intents causes a similar problem to that which we discovered when we went heavy down the Rhino train a year or two ago -- it forces us to run too many creatures, and 85% of creatures in MtG are bad. I kept junking up lists with garbage like Huntmaster or cards which, while good, are not really relevant for Sneak, like Thragtusk or multiple Trackers.

...

As for Intent, as I said, I don't think that we can really get away with more than one copy, as least for now. It's possible that if we get more pushed creatures in the future, especially lower cmc ones, that a second copy might be good. Right now, though, there just aren't enough high-quality creatures in jund nic fit to justify the second copy. The first is, however, undeniably good and pushes us to 6 sac outlets for Vets, which is a little lower than I'd like but is the best I can realistically accomplish at the moment. I will freely admit that when we were on 8 sac outlets (4 Therapy, 2 Tower, 2 Intent), the deck's mana generation felt AMAZINGLY smooth, and that is a concept that I will definitely be keeping in mind for other builds....mostly junk or BUG, which have the extra bodies to accomodate extra Intents.

Dude, Mirri's Guile. Select & shuffle. You don't need to have more cards than your opponent, you just have to consistently find the right ones. Your gameplan is that powerful. Having multiple Intents actually makes this card better.

As for multiple Intents (and hence a way to improve consistency of your combo) - you just might have to reconfigure your base skeleton. And opt for an easy backup/stalling plan that gives you plenty of time to both find your combo pieces and create that hole in your opponents' defenses. If you want to function as a combo deck, you'll have to play as one.

[Navsi]

Chandra is our Jace. I'm dead serious. Sam can attest that I was extremely uneasy about this card, because I'm seeing nightmare scenarios of flipping Emrakul to exile and breaking up Sneak chains. I tested a PFire list without Sneaks a couple days ago, and while that deck was questionable, Chandra overperformed to a ridiculous degree. She beats Jace TMS 1-on-1. Her plus generates a card while dealing 2 damage to Jace (redirect), which forces Jaces into the unenviable position of being forced to +2 to stay alive -- and +2 is bad vs us in that scenario because we're drawing two a turn. She's amazing against Liliana, as well, for much of the same reasons. Her -3 isn't enough to kill Gurmag, which is very unfortunate, but she can protect herself reasonably well, and the amount of removal we currently run, especially with PFire, is enough to generally run interference for her. Plus, her ultimate is game-ending, and comes online much quicker than Jace's (again, while keeping him unable to progress). I've also added 2 mana with her more times than I can really recall conveniently, usually to pump up a Zenith or Deed activation, but sometimes to be able to hardcast a Titan, break clues, or have mana floating against Pierce/Daze. Really, really good card for us and I would be tempted to run a 3rd if I thought we had room. I haven't flipped Emrakul yet, but if we're in a position to where we can safely +1 Chandra and keep her safe, we can easily just ride her to victory instead of Emrakul -- which is better against half the decks anyway.

Chandra only deals damage with her +1 if you don't cast the card.

[Arianrhod]

Chandra only deals damage with her +1 if you don't cast the card.

Sure, but you're still functionally drawing it because you are offered the choice of whay to do with it. Having the decision at all is good enough, there.

[Ricardio]

2-3 in league

1-2 grixis control
felt not close
2-1 RUG delver
EZ mode
2-0 4c deathblade
EZ mode
1-2 Elves
felt not close
1-2 Burn
bad variance :(

gonna make changes and go from there.

[Echelon]

Grixis and Burn should be doable w/ Junk Fit.

What was your 75?

[Brael]

How about card quality rather than advantage..? Seriously, Mirri's Guile is a pretty damn good replacement for Top that still allows us to have pretty much the best library manipulation/card selection of the format, with all the shuffle effects that we run.


It still constrains you to 1 card/turn so if you want that card to be bigger, it runs into the usual ramp problems where it's not always a high quality card. That's another reason decks like Delver keep their curve low. With low mana generation quality needs to be cheap, they can't play 4 cards in a turn usually.

[Echelon]

It still constrains you to 1 card/turn so if you want that card to be bigger, it runs into the usual ramp problems where it's not always a high quality card. That's another reason decks like Delver keep their curve low. With low mana generation quality needs to be cheap, they can't play 4 cards in a turn usually.

Neither can we, but we get away with playing only 1/2 cards a turn every turn b/c our spells are simply stronger than our opponents'. Even if we need to take some beats in the early game to get there. That's why we run Rhinos. Other decks' relative card quality diminishes as the games drag on, ours keeps increasing. Wasteland, Stifle and Daze are wonderful during turns 1 through 3 (roughly), but become much worse once your past turn 5 and up. Especially once we hit our stride. Same goes for, say, Lightning Bolt. It's capable of dealing with DRS or whatever, but useless vs. Rhinos and other stuff (unless they want to start 2-for-1'ing themselves, which is still very good for us).

With 1 mana library manipulation back to smoothen out our draws it should work out just fine. Heck, one can argue that Guile is better in some cases b/c it doesn't need any mana investments after you drop it on the field.

[Bobmans]

spoiler from Hours of Devestation:

Ramunap Excavator
2G
Creature - Naga Cleric

You may play land cards from your graveyard.
"This world was once so much more than the confines of Naktamun."

illus. # 129/184
C&D
2/3

Another utility 3-drop, but has some serious usefulness. Makes Crop/KotR/Loam of whatever shenanigans more interesting.

so basically a Zenithable Crucible of Worlds.

[Brael]

Neither can we, but we get away with playing only 1/2 cards a turn every turn b/c our spells are simply stronger than our opponents'. Even if we need to take some beats in the early game to get there. That's why we run Rhinos. Other decks' relative card quality diminishes as the games drag on, ours keeps increasing. Wasteland, Stifle and Daze are wonderful during turns 1 through 3 (roughly), but become much worse once your past turn 5 and up. Especially once we hit our stride. Same goes for, say, Lightning Bolt. It's capable of dealing with DRS or whatever, but useless vs. Rhinos and other stuff (unless they want to start 2-for-1'ing themselves, which is still very good for us).

I play a bunch of cards every turn.


With 1 mana library manipulation back to smoothen out our draws it should work out just fine. Heck, one can argue that Guile is better in some cases b/c it doesn't need any mana investments after you drop it on the field.

Maybe, but my counter argument is that I'm not sure it's even needed. Remember, before the SDT ban I was already cutting Tops, I was running only two and about to drop to just a singleton copy.


spoiler from Hours of Devestation:

Ramunap Excavator
2G
Creature - Naga Cleric

You may play land cards from your graveyard.

I like this one. I'll slot it over Courser of Kruphix most likely. It might be enough to make me rethink the Horizon Canopy plan, but I also really like what this does with Crop Rotation.

Glad I've put Maverick together too, this makes their Wasteland strategy super dangerous.

PS: Dryad Arbor tricks.

[square_two]

Ramunap Excavator
2G
Creature - Naga Cleric

You may play land cards from your graveyard.

2/3

Another utility 3-drop, but has some serious usefulness. Makes Crop/KotR/Loam of whatever shenanigans more interesting.

so basically a Zenithable Crucible of Worlds.


Holy crap. It's a GSZ'able Crucible. My 4 Tracker 4 Smokestack deck just got quite a bit better. If only it were human so that I could run Caverns + Braids...

[TTX]

Holy crap. It's a GSZ'able Crucible. My 4 Tracker 4 Smokestack deck just got quite a bit better. If only it were human so that I could run Caverns + Braids...

Makes the Gitrog Monster a lot better.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Echelon]

spoiler from Hours of Devestation:

Ramunap Excavator
2G
Creature - Naga Cleric

You may play land cards from your graveyard.
"This world was once so much more than the confines of Naktamun."

illus. # 129/184
C&D
2/3

Another utility 3-drop, but has some serious usefulness. Makes Crop/KotR/Loam of whatever shenanigans more interesting.

so basically a Zenithable Crucible of Worlds.

Other decks can probably use it better. Stuff that runs Mox Diamond, Exploration, Life from the Loam and Wastelands and Ghost Quarters. I mean, holy fucking shit. Only reason why it probably won't work though is b/c it's a creature that dies to everything. On the other hand, Volrath's Stronghold is also a land so who knows.

On a fun note, especially combined w/ Exploration, it can ramp you quite a ways using Crystal Vein. And sets up a fun little engine when combined w/ Tireless Tracker.

Also, combine w/ Courser of Kruphix and a fetchland for some library manipulation. Or combine with Mirri's Guile and a fetchland to let yourself look @3 fresh cards every single turn. That's a lot of card selection. Top would have been even better with this.


I play a bunch of cards every turn.

Maybe, but my counter argument is that I'm not sure it's even needed. Remember, before the SDT ban I was already cutting Tops, I was running only two and about to drop to just a singleton copy.

I like this one. I'll slot it over Courser of Kruphix most likely. It might be enough to make me rethink the Horizon Canopy plan, but I also really like what this does with Crop Rotation.

Glad I've put Maverick together too, this makes their Wasteland strategy super dangerous.

PS: Dryad Arbor tricks.

Depends on the type of card. Interaction, sure. Creatures, probably just 1/turn, as big as possible.

I get your point on the necessity of it. I think it is.

[Brael]

Other decks can probably use it better. Stuff that runs Mox Diamond, Exploration, Life from the Loam and Wastelands and Ghost Quarters. I mean, holy fucking shit. Only reason why it probably won't work though is b/c it's a creature that dies to everything.

Overload their removal and dying to removal ceases to matter.

I'll definitely be playing with this card a bit. I love the interaction between it and Tracker. As TTX pointed out, I might even try Gitrog.

In Junk, if you forego some Trackers I could see Horizon Canopy playing well.

[Purple Blood]

spoiler from Hours of Devestation:

Ramunap Excavator
2G
Creature - Naga Cleric

You may play land cards from your graveyard.
"This world was once so much more than the confines of Naktamun."

illus. # 129/184
C&D
2/3

Another utility 3-drop, but has some serious usefulness. Makes Crop/KotR/Loam of whatever shenanigans more interesting.

so basically a Zenithable Crucible of Worlds.

I'm really tempted to put this into a Nic Fit shell with Gitrog. But the more I was mulling it over I think I would replace Veteran Explorers with Exploration and put in Wasteland and maybe even Dustbowl. Some combination of: Exploration; Excavator; Gitrog; Tireless Tracker; Sylvan Safekeeper; Meren; E.Witness; Deed; Thoughtseize; DRS; Push; AD; Titania; Nissa.

If I was going to add a third color could go with KoTR and Swords but at that point it starts to become Maverick.

[Brael]

I'm really tempted to put this into a Nic Fit shell with Gitrog. But the more I was mulling it over I think I would replace Veteran Explorers with Exploration and put in Wasteland and maybe even Dustbowl. Some combination of: Exploration; Excavator; Gitrog; Tireless Tracker; Sylvan Safekeeper; Meren; E.Witness; Deed; Thoughtseize; DRS; Push; AD; Titania; Nissa.

If I was going to add a third color could go with KoTR and Swords but at that point it starts to become Maverick.

Wasteland and Veteran Explorer don't play well together. There's plenty of other good things to do with it though. For example, the Blighted lands get a little more appealing with this, previously they cost a bit too much for a 1 shot effect. Recurring a Blighted Fen would be a real strong lategame though.

[Bobmans]

Wasteland and Veteran Explorer don't play well together. There's plenty of other good things to do with it though. For example, the Blighted lands get a little more appealing with this, previously they cost a bit too much for a 1 shot effect. Recurring a Blighted Fen would be a real strong lategame though.

Agreed, a Sylvan Plug shell comes more to mind.

[Purple Blood]

Wasteland and Veteran Explorer don't play well together. There's plenty of other good things to do with it though. For example, the Blighted lands get a little more appealing with this, previously they cost a bit too much for a 1 shot effect. Recurring a Blighted Fen would be a real strong lategame though.

Yea that's why I mentioned I was thinking to drop them out. But at that points its not Nic Fit anymore :(\

Good point on the blighted lands. Will have to think more on this.

[Brael]

Good point on the blighted lands. Will have to think more on this.

I've been wanting to use the Blighted lands for awhile. Blighted Fen is the most pushed of the bunch, but Blighted Gorge is also under rated. I've played Blighted Gorge in Modern before, to actual success. But, Legacy has Barbarian Ring so I'm not sure if Gorge would work in this format. Ring could be strictly better.

Could go simpler too. Maybe Horizon Canopy is enough. Each turn you could replay it, crack it, and draw a card. Plus it's a T1 green source (though a bit painful). Maybe even simpler than that, and simply having GSZ as a way to reassemble Two Towers (that you can build on the back of Crop Rotation) is enough.

[Scott]

Nic Fit with w/ Atraxa, Praetors' Voice on stream (https://www.twitch.tv/magic) in round 5 of the GP atm.

[Echelon]

Cool. Is it a 4C build, or 3C w/ Atraxa as "splash"?

Never mind, clicked the link and it's a 4C build. All them basics! And Brainstorm. OMG, lol.

Fuck, yes!

[Ganfar]

This card seems very nice sex drop if you don't play white:

http://mythicspoiler.com/ixa/cards/carnagetyrant.html

4GG
Creature - Dinosaur
Carnage Tyrant can't be countered.

Trample, hexproof

He is hard to deal with.

[Echelon]

You forgot to add it's 7/6.

No evasion/trample though.

[Ganfar]

You forgot to add it's 7/6.

No evasion/trample though.

It has Trample. And it's 7/6

[rubblekill]

Pseudo Sigarda for non white versions? To be honest I don't like to play 6 drops in my decks..

[Echelon]

It has Trample. And it's 7/6

Yup, I missed the trample. My bad!


Pseudo Sigarda for non white versions? To be honest I don't like to play 6 drops in my decks..

I do like it, but I know I just shouldn't and therefor don't.

But... At 5 mana and non-white, you have Verdurous Gearhulk as an 8/8 trampler. It too has Bolt-proof and Fatal Push-proof. Just no StP-proof.

[Navsi]

It's a better version of Sagu Mauler, which has seen occasional play in BUG lists. Probably worth testing. 7 power is a lot.

Gearhulk is nice but it's also vulnerable to artifact hate (Kommand in particular), and dies to Dismember in response to the ETB trigger, as well as Jace bounce.

[Bobmans]

This card seems very nice sex drop if you don't play white:

http://mythicspoiler.com/ixa/cards/carnagetyrant.html

4GG
Creature - Dinosaur
Carnage Tyrant can't be countered.

Trample, hexproof

7/6

He is hard to deal with.

This is the beef that the grindy Jund version always missed.

[Arianrhod]

2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Plains
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Phyrexian Tower

1 Dryad Arbor

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Grim Flayer
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Eternal Witness
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
1 Siege Rhino
1 Titania, Priestess of Argoth
1 Sigarda, Heron's Grace

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Diabolic Intent

4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay

2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Garruk, Apex Predator

3 Pernicious Deed

sb::
2 Thoughtseize
2 Engineered Plague
2 Trinisphere
2 Sandwurm Convergence
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Vindicate
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Disenchant

Scalped the list from the guy that was on stream yesterday from the twitch broadcast. Everything was clear enough except the Disenchant in the board -- I think that's what it is, but it could be some other white card.

I'm a little skeptical of a couple things about this list (probably leading to why it was in the 2-0-2 bracket), but there are equally a couple of things that I find interesting, in particular the tag-team of Grim Flayer and Liliana, Last Hope. I'd be curious to know how often those cards overperformed, for sure. I feel like Flayer is likely just not good enough no matter how much we might want it to be; but Liliana is interesting. I've played that card in standard a bunch, and still do in modern (sideboard for Fae, but, still), and it ranges from average to an absolute beating...it's rarely bad.

I feel like he has too many blue sources for literally Brainstorms and a Green Sunnable Atraxa (also like he should 100% be running Steve here), but maybe he plans to fetch U early for Brainstorm and then get Wastelanded?

The maindeck Hymns are interesting, too, since that's a card that's good at generating advantage and sometimes just flat winning the game. Brainstorm helps run cards like Hymn, I think, because it can turn otherwise dead draws late (like Hymn) into potential gas.

So while I don't think this list is particularly the best piece of art I've ever seen, I do think it has some ideas that have merit and should be considered.

-------------

As for Ixalan stuff; I don't think the Carnage Tyrant is really what we're looking for. It does beat StP, yes, and it's a step up from other options like Thrun, because it beats TNN, but it still loses to Goyf, KotR, equipments, etc. It still doesn't have any kind of value generated upon enter. It flat dies to double TNN. I think if it was a 6/7 I'd be more likely to care...with 6 on the ass, though, I don't love it.

The spyglass could very well be relevant to us. We get extra value from the information it provides, and it can name both non-land and land abilities, although it can't hit Petal and LED. Also, being cmc 2 is actually an advantage for us, since it won't die if we Deed at 1, like vs Elves, for example.

[Navsi]

<snip>

Atraxa deck:

Needs more Strixes. Probably in place of Flayer.
Sorin and Garruk should probably be Kaya and Gideon.
Hymn -> Collective Brutality
Titania and Rhino should probably just be Trackers. Maybe a Transform Nissa.
Playing white without a Swords variant seems like something of a mistake.

Carnage Tyrant:

I quite like it. It only loses to Goyf if yards are ridiculously full, and it's great in combination with Deed. It dies to double TNN, but they still have to keep them both back as blockers, and even then he still tramples in for 5. He also deals with everything Deed doesn't (i.e. planeswalkers). He definitely does look like the best 6-drop Jund has, since he's way less answerable than Titans (uncounterable is big), and tbh I'm tempted to try him out as a curve topper in other builds too.

[Arianrhod]

Verdant(?) Sun's Avatar 3GG Dinosaur Avatar

When ~ or another creature enters the battlefield under your control, you gain life equal to that creature's toughness.

5/5

This probably replaces Thragtusk in Rhino versions at least, if anyone is still playing the 1-of Thrag alongside the Rhinos.

(Not Tireless) Tracker B Human Pirate

1B, Tap, exile two target cards from an opponent's graveyard. ~ Explores/Discovers (Reveal the top card of your library,. Put that card into your hand if it is a land. Otherwise, put a +1/+1 counter on ~, then put the card back or put it in your graveyard.)

This mechanic is nutty and we 100% need to be on the lookout for playable green cards with it. That is definitely a type of card advantage we wouldn't mind.

Sunbird's Invocation 3R Enchantment

Whenever you cast a spell from your hand, reveal the top X cards of your library, where X is that spell's CMC. You may cast a card revealed this way with CMC X or less without paying its mana cost. Put the rest on the bottom of your library in a random order.

This seems like it could be worth keeping an eye on, as well.

[Brael]

This is the beef that the grindy Jund version always missed.

Agreed, I'll consider this for BG.

[Ralf]

Agreed, I'll consider this for BG.

+1

I'm currently playing the following list:

Golgari Fit:

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs

1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Ishkanah, Grafwidow
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Tireless Tracker
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer

1 Karn Liberated
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Nissa, Vital Force

1 Pernicious Deed
2 Sylvan Library

2 Abrupt Decay
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Pulse of Murasa

1 Toxic Deluge
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 Lost Legacy
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Choke

There is 60 cards MD and I am trying Kalonian Hydra as the 61th to see if it adds more impact/helps killing faster.
I could definitely see trying the new Dinosaure when it is available.

Ishkanah has been a house in the control+finish department. Either by stalling long enough so that something else could take over the game or by being a kill by itself.
The rest is pretty standard and low curved.
The list turns out to be grindy and players that are not very familiar with hard control might not like it. Nonetheless, my current tests are really convincing since SDT's ban.

Should you have any questions/comments, feel free.

Happy brewing & testing !

Ralf

[Brael]

How often do you get Delirium for Ishkanah? Seems like it would be difficult to achieve. Is that the slot where you would be looking at the 7/6?

[Ralf]

How often do you get Delirium for Ishkanah? Seems like it would be difficult to achieve. Is that the slot where you would be looking at the 7/6?

I don't have too many issues with delirium. Being a CMC 5 drop usually means that you won't gsz for it until mid to late game and by that time you usually have enabled delirium.

Nope the Dino will replace the Hydra that I'm currently assessing as the 61th card.

[ShadWills]

Just a bunch of random ideas:
Bob is really good vs combo though I still hate it when delver Bolts him.
Jerry Mee posted a list called nic fit mill at hipsters of the coast using Archive Trap. I don't know if it's any good (I suspect it isn't) but that Archive Trap is Spicy.
I found a few decks (not necessarily NicFit) using Eternal Witness to chain Summoning Traps. That looks fun, and I wonder if there could be something there, especially for Sneak Attack lists. It probably takes too many slots but Summoning Trap can be chained with Eternal Witness, Greenwarden of Murassa, Woodland Bellower (if you have a Witness in the deck), Rune scarred demon, and a host of other cards that Sneak Attack Decks like.

I've been looking back on some Veteran Explorer Storm lists, particularly Doomsday. The first List I ever posted on this forum contained just a sprinkling of some cards from that deck- Summoner's Pact, Lion's Eye Diamond, Culling the Weak, and Past in Flames. Also I had some number of Entomb. It was mostly just a regular NicFit list that would sometimes drop a turn two Primeval Titan or go nuts with Past in Flames. I really liked that list and it performed well for me though it was vulnerable to grave hate. The loss of SDT seems really bad for Veteran Explorer Storm. But I'm still interested and experimenting with the deck. I'm also interested in Protean Hulk in NicFit.
Any thoughts?

[ShadWills]

When I wasn't being screwed or flooded, it felt like I drew a lot of air. Like, I'd get games to the point where they were stable, but then just draw garbage while opponents draw gas, and just get out-muscled. I don't like that amount of variance, but I don't know what to do about it other than be more redundant -- which, in this case, may mean moving away from Sneak Attack as a card for a while.

This is how this deck has felt to me for a while. Rhino junk has less of this issue I think, but it doesn't go quite as big, which is so much of the fun of playing NicFit. Wish we could get a functional reprint of Explorer to clean up some variance!

Speaking of variance: Brael, your list has less issues with variance am I right? If I look will I find an updated list? How do you do against Delver? I love Bob as a card but I've said it before and I'll say it again: Man I love being a turtle Lightning Bolt feels bad. Especially vs delver I feel like I'm just playing right into their plan. Am I just not playing well? Is it just that some Delver sequences are unbeatable? Namely something like Delver, Daze, stifle, wasteland. My lists without Bob do better in this match-up.

[joXerus]

Hello, I am new in Nic Fit :)
Today went first time on the tournament with Nic Fit deck. Im trying junk version.

1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Dragonlord Dromoka

15 Instants and Sorceries
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Painful Truths

3 Enchantments
1 Sylvan Library
2 Pernicious Deed

2 Planeswalkers
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

23 Lands
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Plains
3 Swamp
3 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah

15 Sideboard
1 Dread of Night
1 Thoughtseize
1 Pithing Needle
1 Golgari Charm
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ruinous Path
1 Vindicate
1 Krosan Grip
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Lost Legacy
1 Glissa, the Traitor

There were 18 ppl, so 5 rounds + top8.
draw vs Burn
won vs UR Delver
lost vs white eldrazi
lost vs death blade
won vs UR control

Anyone here playing junk? I would be thankful for any kind of advice. Is there anything I should change? I am really unsure about sideboarding :frown: It is just pile o cards I grabbed 15 minutes before leaving house :laugh:
I am almost every round siding out Meren.... but I think that I am in love with Dromoka :tongue:

[Brael]

Speaking of variance: Brael, your list has less issues with variance am I right? If I look will I find an updated list? How do you do against Delver? I love Bob as a card but I've said it before and I'll say it again: Man I love being a turtle Lightning Bolt feels bad. Especially vs delver I feel like I'm just playing right into their plan. Am I just not playing well? Is it just that some Delver sequences are unbeatable? Namely something like Delver, Daze, stifle, wasteland. My lists without Bob do better in this match-up.

Much less variance. My lists have been in flux since the SDT ban, I haven't found something to settle on yet since I've been playing very little Legacy (I won't get another chance until September really).

I deal with consistency through a variety of ways, less colors of mana, lower curve, and more land. All combine for a pretty big effect.

I've got two competing lists right now, a Rhino list and a straight BG list.

The rhino list is back some number of pages, you can probably find it in my post history easily enough. The BG list has changed a bit, if I were going to register a 75 today this is what I would play (it's similar to what I played in my games the other week that I wrote about):

Land 24
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Bojuka Bog
5 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Creatures 18
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
1 Strangleroot Geist
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth

Spells 19
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Sylvan Library
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Crop Rotation
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Nissa, Vital Force

Sideboard 15
1 Maze of Ith
1 Crop Rotation
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Treetop Village
4 Lost Legacy
1 Golgari Charm
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Treetop Village

I've never had a problem with Delver, it doesn't stomp them like Rhinos do but Delver loses to CA just like Miracles does. Really, what it comes down to is you need to not lose to mana denial. If you can avoid that from happening, you'll almost certainly win.

Bobs role varies by game, you need to identify the right time to use him. Sometimes you want him to be the last thing you play, after you've exhausted the opponents removal so that the cards can run away with the game. Other times you want to play him early and bait a removal spell so that something bigger like a Tracker can grow out of control. The correct line varies by matchup. For example, against Death and Taxes I want Bob late but against Delver I would rather have him early.

[Echelon]

@joXergus: Kinda busy atm. I'll take a look at your list and give you some tips in the morning.

[Kanti]

I know this sounds janky, but have been thinking about shells to toss in that Hostage Taker spoiler. Altar of the Brood sounds cool, and will probably take hold in Modern as it keeps the deck UB. Essence Warden seems just as good and infinite life seems just as good.

This deck already runs an assload of tutors, and 4 GSZ for the Warden. I am excicted. Maybe the thing can break Cream of the Crop as well. Resolve CotC, then keep cycling until you the +B part of the combo. NicFit can play all these janky cards and still just cast a Grave Titan to close out the game. It also has an entire creature base of CiP effects, so I think BUG PirafeFit might be possible. Cool thing about a leak is you can casually test the thing now among friends. Just don't cry if they change it before it's release.

Also, to keep the post on more realistic discussions, anyone ever considered Skulltap? 1B, sac a creature, draw two. Seems good. Is Night's Whisper that much better? Saw Arian saying he really liked having 8 sac outlets, and missed them when he went down to 6. Might be a way to squeeze another in.

edit: sorry for posting this... it's just too cool. Even a Coffin+Hostage Taker looks like it hurts a lot on paper. Probably needs a 2nd Essence Warden, and 2nd Leovold. Also poop, just noticed Safe Haven doesn't produce mana. I will leave it there, but that probably gets replaced by like a Cavern of Souls, for uncounterable Veteran Explorer, Eternal Witness, Tireless Tracker, and of course Hostage Taker. I can see shaving something else for another Cavern as you have 10 targets, 1/6 cards is a target.

edit2: it's also obvious Sylvan Safekeeper needs a home here, to protect the combo. Fits pretty damn perfectly. Thank you GSZ, you godly card you. Also, was testing, and the Coffin is meh. Jace would be just as good, -1 to bounce a Hostage Taker to initiate the combo, or just actually winning the game on it's own. Soul of the Harvest also feels like it just needs to be Essence Warden #2.

18
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Hostage Taker
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Slyvan Safekeeper
1 Essence Warden
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Soul of the Harvest
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Grave Titan

22
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent
2 Cream of the Crop

3 Pernicous Deed
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge

2 Brainstorm
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

21
3 Bayou
1 USea
1 Tropical Island
1 Safe Haven
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest

[Brael]

Also, to keep the post on more realistic discussions, anyone ever considered Skulltap?

Perilous Research and Altar's Reap are both strictly better. They're not really all that good though, you don't want to sacrifice your board unless it's a Veteran Explorer.

[Echelon]

@Kanti/Brael: I'd argue that Diabolic Intent is better. Instead of 2 random cards it draws the exact card you need every single time. That being said, Intent doesn't see play for various reasons and given the fact you'll always have life but will not always have creatures you want to sacrifice, it's easiest to go ahead and use cards that pressure your life total rather than the CA you're trying to build.

Also, Kanti, how would your deck improve upon current builds and what does it do to improve the bad MUs we currently have?


Hello, I am new in Nic Fit :)
Today went first time on the tournament with Nic Fit deck. Im trying junk version.

...List...

There were 18 ppl, so 5 rounds + top8.
draw vs Burn
won vs UR Delver
lost vs white eldrazi
lost vs death blade
won vs UR control

Anyone here playing junk? I would be thankful for any kind of advice. Is there anything I should change? I am really unsure about sideboarding :frown: It is just pile o cards I grabbed 15 minutes before leaving house :laugh:
I am almost every round siding out Meren.... but I think that I am in love with Dromoka :tongue:

I've gone over your list. A few things stand out.
- There's very little in the way of CA/library manipulation. This means that in the end you'll end up losing quite a few games to variance and'll have a harder time pulling out ahead of your opponent.
- However awesome Dromoka is, you don't need it. There are plenty of 4- and 5-mana cards that let you walk away with the game just as well. Lower CMC, same result = better. More boring, I know, but better. That's the biggest trap when playing with this deck - wanting to play the cool stuff over something more efficient. I know I fell for it more than once.
- Your SB is all over the place, and not necessarily geared towards beating the decks you're weak against. You need to worry about the decks that are faster than you, not the grindy stuff.

I hope this helps you a little. Good luck!

[joXerus]

I've gone over your list. A few things stand out.
- There's very little in the way of CA/library manipulation. This means that in the end you'll end up losing quite a few games to variance and'll have a harder time pulling out ahead of your opponent.
- However awesome Dromoka is, you don't need it. There are plenty of 4- and 5-mana cards that let you walk away with the game just as well. Lower CMC, same result = better. More boring, I know, but better. That's the biggest trap when playing with this deck - wanting to play the cool stuff over something more efficient. I know I fell for it more than once.
- Your SB is all over the place, and not necessarily geared towards beating the decks you're weak against. You need to worry about the decks that are faster than you, not the grindy stuff.

I hope this helps you a little. Good luck!

Thank you for your reply, Echelon!

1) I know that I have only 1 Painful Truths and 1 Sylvan Library (+1 Eternal Witness and 1 Tireless Tracker). How can I improve my CA? Should I have more Painful Truths / Sylvan Libraries or creatures like Eternal Witness / Tireless Tracker?

2) I feel pretty bad when I got it on the opening hand, but later in the game its cool, I do not need to GSZ for 7. Versus those URs its basically GG. But I'm curious, so if you can tell me about some creatures with "lower CMC, same result = better", I'll be glad :tongue:

3) I know my SB is really bad. I'm pretty new to legacy, so I'm not used to legacy decks and how to counter them. I do not even know what is supposed to be a good matchup and bad matchup. I'm not sure what SB cards should I use, not even what board out. I'm used to playing modern, so I was boarding through my feeling what I saw in the first game.
It would be super nice to have some kind of SB Guide, I have one for my modern Abzan.... but here its almost impossible, while there is so many versions of nic fit :frown:

[Echelon]

Thank you for your reply, Echelon!

1) I know that I have only 1 Painful Truths and 1 Sylvan Library (+1 Eternal Witness and 1 Tireless Tracker). How can I improve my CA? Should I have more Painful Truths / Sylvan Libraries or creatures like Eternal Witness / Tireless Tracker?

2) I feel pretty bad when I got it on the opening hand, but later in the game its cool, I do not need to GSZ for 7. Versus those URs its basically GG. But I'm curious, so if you can tell me about some creatures with "lower CMC, same result = better", I'll be glad :tongue:

3) I know my SB is really bad. I'm pretty new to legacy, so I'm not used to legacy decks and how to counter them. I do not even know what is supposed to be a good matchup and bad matchup. I'm not sure what SB cards should I use, not even what board out. I'm used to playing modern, so I was boarding through my feeling what I saw in the first game.
It would be super nice to have some kind of SB Guide, I have one for my modern Abzan.... but here its almost impossible, while there is so many versions of nic fit :frown:

1) Multiples work. I believe sdematt runs 2 Painful Truths and a Nights Whisper for starters. You could also try proxying Mirri's Guile, see how that works for you as pseudo-Top. As far as CA/engine cards go, I (at the moment) run the following suite:
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Vizier of the Menagerie
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth

Note that I do also run an Eternal Witness but don't necessarily count it in my CA/library manipulation suite - it's only single shot. Also, don't take this suite as gospel - just mix and match and see what works for you/you feel comfortable with.

2) Siege Rhino beats 90% of the field @4 mana. So you could go -1 Thragtusk, -1 Dromoka, +2 Siege Rhino. Helps shave down your mana curve a bit. And they're great in multiples. Verdurous Gearhulk is an 8/8 trample @5 mana, so you could replace Dromoka with that. It comes down a turn earlier and needs 1 swing less (or 2, if your opponent has already lost exactly 4 life) than Dromoka.

3) There's some good stuff in the primer on page 1. For reference, this is the SB I'm currently running. This should probably change a bit to better suit your meta, obviously.
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm
3 Duress
3 Lost Legacy

As you might guess it's geared mostly towards dealing w/ fast combo decks, as those are the decks' biggest weakness. Any deck where you're able to easily drag out the game past turn 5 or so, you should have at least a 50/50-ish MU against (now Miracles is gone). You don't really want to commit SB room to that. Cards like Lost Legacy might still come in for grindy MUs though - it's just pretty damn good to strip whatever troubles you. Vs. anyDelver for instance, I might use it to strip away part of their offensive suite, giving me an easier time dealing with their leftover creatures.

[Brael]

@Kanti/Brael: I'd argue that Diabolic Intent is better. Instead of 2 random cards it draws the exact card you need every single time. That being said, Intent doesn't see play for various reasons and given the fact you'll always have life but will not always have creatures you want to sacrifice, it's easiest to go ahead and use cards that pressure your life total rather than the CA you're trying to build.

I agree, Intent beats any of that. I'm still hesitant to sacrifice my board in just about any situation though.

[Echelon]

I agree, Intent beats any of that. I'm still hesitant to sacrifice my board in just about any situation though.

You could circumvent that by going for a build with (a big bunch of) Young Wolf, Strangleroot Geist and whatnot. You'd end up with a deck very resistant to spotremoval and (probably) very good w/ equipment. Just supplement w/ SFM & Batterskull.

It'd make Grafted Wargear and Rancor pretty cool too, by the way. Just 1 of each turns each creature into an absolute nightmare to deal with.

[Navsi]

You could circumvent that by going for a build with (a big bunch of) Young Wolf, Strangleroot Geist and whatnot. You'd end up with a deck very resistant to spotremoval and (probably) very good w/ equipment. Just supplement w/ SFM & Batterskull.

You sacrifice individual card power, though. What you really want is creatures that provide reasonable value if they die, but are still good if your opponent doesn't care about a bear and you don't have Intent in hand. That means Strix, Stoneforge, Explorer (naturally). Unfortunately there aren't that many other actually good options beyond those.

[Echelon]

You sacrifice individual card power, though. What you really want is creatures that provide reasonable value if they die, but are still good if your opponent doesn't care about a bear and you don't have Intent in hand. That means Strix, Stoneforge, Explorer (naturally). Unfortunately there aren't that many other actually good options beyond those.

I know. Oh, how I sometimes long for the days when I was just a filthy casual.

Also, by the time you're done filling all the slots in your deck you'll probably find out you don't have any room left for Diabolic Intent. Or, you know, you should just Natural Order for Progenitus instead.

[Navsi]

I know. Oh, how I sometimes long for the days when I was just a filthy casual.

Also, by the time you're done filling all the slots in your deck you'll probably find out you don't have any room left for Diabolic Intent. Or, you know, you should just Natural Order for Progenitus instead.

Speaking of Natural Order - I think the place you want to be with that card is actually Worldspine Wurm. Mainly, because it's a savage beating with Sneak Attack. NO into Worldspine is pretty close to a game ender in the same way as Sneak, and you can play around Swords with Therapy, Tower or Sylvan Safekeeper or something.

[Brael]

You sacrifice individual card power, though. What you really want is creatures that provide reasonable value if they die, but are still good if your opponent doesn't care about a bear and you don't have Intent in hand. That means Strix, Stoneforge, Explorer (naturally). Unfortunately there aren't that many other actually good options beyond those.

There might be some. Lots of Mulldrifteresque cards is what you're looking for. Such a build loses the ability to run Baneslayers though (too much removal for single big cards) so the good stuff to tutor becomes a lot more limited. I think it devolves back to Thrun and Sigarda.

I'm leaning in another direction myself though. Lately I've been trying to figure out what I can do in a RWB deck in Modern that utilizes Dark Petition. With our mana ramp, it might be possible to do something similar here. I for one would rather pay 5 to Dark Petition for any card, and play it right away if it's a 3 drop or less than pay 2 and lose a creature to tutor something, and then still have to pay the mana cost.

I've hit a snag though in figuring out what's powerful enough to warrant paying 5 mana over. It's not like we're Storm and win on the spot with it, and that's probably a good enough reason to not spend too much time thinking about it.


You could circumvent that by going for a build with (a big bunch of) Young Wolf, Strangleroot Geist and whatnot. You'd end up with a deck very resistant to spotremoval and (probably) very good w/ equipment. Just supplement w/ SFM & Batterskull.

It'd make Grafted Wargear and Rancor pretty cool too, by the way. Just 1 of each turns each creature into an absolute nightmare to deal with.

Geist is just barely good enough to work. I've been playing it off and on. I really like it against JTMS, or other random Walkers, and it provides another decent opening with Therapy, letting you go
T1: Bayou, Therapy
T2: Geist, Flashback, swing 3.

It's not the greatest opening in the world since it doesn't accelerate, but it's not horrible, and it's something else you can play off of Explorer acceleration.

It's high on my list of cards to replace though, and only makes it in my BG lists.

I think the better way to circumvent losing your board is to go back to the super durdle decks like BUG Pod. Problem is, those decks don't win fast enough, and lately involve too much shuffling for my tastes. I definitely do not want to be playing a deck that's slower than Miracles, and that's something Nic Fit runs into a lot.

[Navsi]

=I'm leaning in another direction myself though. Lately I've been trying to figure out what I can do in a RWB deck in Modern that utilizes Dark Petition. With our mana ramp, it might be possible to do something similar here. I for one would rather pay 5 to Dark Petition for any card, and play it right away if it's a 3 drop or less than pay 2 and lose a creature to tutor something, and then still have to pay the mana cost.

I've been doing a bit of testing with Dark Petition. The primary Petition targets I was testing were Toxic Deluge (naturally), Liliana of the Veil (maindeck combo hate), Contamination (randomly hoses a lot of decks). Ophiomancer also works with Contamination well, and is a better card when you aren't comboing than Mardu Strike Leader.

[Brael]

Hello, I am new in Nic Fit :)
Today went first time on the tournament with Nic Fit deck. Im trying junk version.


I would suggest more interaction, and lowering the curve. It takes a lot of time to get to where I am (and it's a path few are brave or perhaps foolish enough to travel), but most people will settle for Rhinos, and I think we've been lowering our curves in general a lot lately.

I would also suggest more mana acceleration at 1. I'm a big fan of the 2x DRS. Not only can you pair them up for a real clock, but they have utility, and they get you to 3 faster and getting to 3+ mana on T2 is your #1 gameplan. When it comes to interaction, I would add more. With my CA I use 23 cards total that interact, but with lower CA I think you need to be more around the 30 card range, you're currently at 23. Your interaction right now:

1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Karakas

The thing about Legacy, and especially non blue Legacy is that your cards NEED to interact with the opponent. That means lots of discard, and lots of removal. The card that I would credit with a breakthrough here is Crop Rotation because it solved the problem of sneaking in enough interaction while maintaining threat density. It's acceleration, recursion, card advantage, and interaction in one. It's important for every one of your cards to have some method of trading with an opponents card.

Cards I would suggest:
Maze of Ith
Phyrexian Tower
Volrath's Stronghold
Bojuka Bog
Maelstrom Pulse
Tidehollow Sculler
Master of the Wild Hunt
Crop Rotation

Pick a few of those. I would highly, highly, highly recommend 2 Crop Rotation, 1 Bojuka Bog, 1 Stronghold, 1 Tower in place of

1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Bayou
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Scavenging Ooze

That will increase your interaction to 27 cards (removing the Ooze costs you one). I would then try to work in one more creature based removal that you can GSZ for. Master of the Wild Hunt is good here, I'll leave it to you to decide on that cut.

After that I would look at lowering your remaining curve. Rhino is the best creature available to our deck. Unless it's for Sigarda, I see no reason to ever pay more mana for something. As such, I would remove the Thragtusk for another Rhino. Finally to work in that second DRS I would look at Steves slot (especially since my suggestions drop you to 6 basics). Also, look into Night's Whisper over Painful Truths. 2 vs 3 mana matters a lot, especially when you have 4 drops to cast.

Now for the sideboard. With Nic Fit I divide my sideboard into three categories: Mana, silver bullets, and tutor targets. I'm going to start with my sideboard to explain things (you'll want a different sideboard though):

This is my tutor package. Crop Rotation is functionally another GY hate spell, and an accelerator (getting Tower). It also deals with Reanimator and Sneak and Show. Maze of Ith is a combat trick and a backup Karakas (and it's not just a second Karakas because of Legendary, this way both can be on the field at once). It's worse against Emrakul but better against the RB White creature they play, better against Griselbrand, and can even give your own guys "vigilance". Treetop Village is good against PW's, especially Jace, it's colored mana, and it's cheap to activate so you can use it and do something else in a turn.
1 Crop Rotation
1 Maze of Ith
1 Treetop Village

Next is my mana package. In many matchups Veteran Explorer is better for your opponent than for you (Sneak and Show, Miracles, Burn, Storm, most combo, etc). In those matches you want to take out your Veteran Explorers. The problem is, this deck is mana hungry and you need acceleration (another reason my build is the way it is... it runs on less mana). So those Vets need to come out for other acceleration. When that happens I bring in my full set of Deathrite Shaman, and my Steve for 3 Vets. Against Islands, Carpet of Flowers also comes in (and sometimes not Steve). You can also use this package against mana denial decks like D&T, Blood Moon decks, etc... to simply bring in more mana and beat their denial plan. I use this trick a lot against Delver. DRS and Carpet come in, with or without Vets.
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder

The above 8 slots are locked in my opinion. I think every Nic Fit should be playing all 8 (or 9 if you only play 1 DRS MB, I strongly advocate having all 4 in the 75). Things get a little trickier after that but I focus on beating combo. Lost Legacy is amazing, evidenced by the fact I play 4 of them, and really combos well with the 3 mana on T2 gameplan. Golgari Charm is to diversify my removal, it helps against spot removal (Bolt/Push), it's another way to deal with Moat (less relevant these days), it helps with Elves (not as good as it used to be though), and is even a way to take out our own Vets. Jitte is again there for Elves but it's also just a really impressive card on a creature filled board.

4 Lost Legacy
1 Golgari Charm
1 Umezawa's Jitte

[Echelon]

@Brael: And here I was thinking I'll start slowly.

I'll pitch in some more tomorrow.

[Arianrhod]

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Tireless Tracker
2 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Woodland Bellower

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Toxic Deluge

4 Brainstorm
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay

3 Pernicious Deed

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Nissa, Vital Force

3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower

sb::
2 Negate
1 Dispel
1 Invasive Surgery
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Painful Truths
2 Pulse of Murasa
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Golgari Charm
1 Recoil

Been tuning this online for a while for a IRL friend who wants to play Nic Fit but doesn't have jund cards (or sneaks etc). I'm actually really happy with it and would consider it close to Sneak in power level, and probably would consider playing it in paper events if I still owned blue duals and the meta appeared better for it as compared to Sneak. It's extremely consistent, although it does have times where it floods or screws like any other deck. It's definitely resilient, though.

I'll be making a large theory post tomorrow with thoughts on Nic Fit as a whole across multiple colors and archetypes -- I've been tinkering and tuning a lot on mtgo recently, although I haven't been able to stream due to living conditions being busy, but I've got a lot of things to say....after I sleep.

You can probably tell some of what I'm thinking from the way this list is built, though.

I will note that the 2nd Painful Truths in the board is a floater and I'm not sure what I want it to be yet. It's chilling as Painful #2 until I figure it out.

[Echelon]

@Arianrhod: Looking forward to that!

@joXerus: To chime in on Brael - Reclamation Sage. I think you'd be better off w/ Qasali Pridemage in that particular slot. @Reclamation Sage-mana you can cast QPM through Daze (and still activate it), and it plays incredibly well w/ Meren. You said you tend to board out Meren a lot. The thing is, you do have to facilitate Meren a little bit to ensure she actually is any good. QPM is a good tool in that regard. Another is Dryad Arbor. Your manabase is fairly large, so you could shave off a land to support Arbor (which, for deck building purposes, should not be viewed as a land card but just as a creature card). Since you can GSZ for it w/ X = 0 it gives you more ways to reach 3 mana on T2, which is important especially when dealing w/ fast combo decks. Swap another land for Volrath's Stronghold and you can also use Arbor w/ Courser of Kruphix & Stronghold to perma-block 1 opposing creature. 1 Arbor, a lot of possibilities.

This kinda illustrates how I like to view my Junk Fit list - everything is connected, all pieces interlock. The individual pieces might not be that impressive, but through a lot of little intricacies you can pull of some pretty awesome plays.

[Arianrhod]

I just lost 2 hours of work because my browser apparently logged me out of Source while I was typing it up. Very angry, will try to reconstruct at least the most important bits as a high-level summary at some point later today or tomorrow. Fuck that.

[Bobmans]

I just lost 2 hours of work because my browser apparently logged me out of Source while I was typing it up. Very angry, will try to reconstruct at least the most important bits as a high-level summary at some point later today or tomorrow. Fuck that.

Going back on page sometimes recovers it when it happens, nonetheless i learned to copy paste everything in memory before submitting based on passed experience. Same goes for Ctrl+S.

Since the loss of SDT i haven't really been able to construct anything that is interesting enough to keep Developing.

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[Echelon]

Going back on page sometimes recovers it when it happens, nonetheless i learned to copy paste everything in memory before submitting based on passed experience. Same goes for Ctrl+S.

Since the loss of SDT i haven't really been able to construct anything that is interesting enough to keep Developing.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk

I'm competing in the quarterly in Rotterdam this sunday. Mayhaps I can provide some inspiration afterwards.

[Brael]

Since the loss of SDT i haven't really been able to construct anything that is interesting enough to keep Developing.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk

SE can always use more eyes. The loss of SDT didn't hurt consistency at all (it's arguable if it ever wanted SDT in the first place). And the deck does well enough, I definitely have a very positive win rate with it.


I'm competing in the quarterly in Rotterdam this sunday. Mayhaps I can provide some inspiration afterwards.

What are you going to end up playing?

[Bobmans]

What are you going to end up playing?

4 Rhino's... Hahaha

What is the current status of SE?

[Brael]

What is the current status of SE?

It's good, and it's playable. Slightly worse against Delver than the typical Nic Fit build, but it's still winnable. Better against combo than many variations, better against prison too. I have a positive record against Storm actually (though luck has been on my side some). Positive against Miracles. It's closer to 50/50 across the board rather than a bunch of good and a bunch of bad. Though I will say Elves is near unwinnable.

[Echelon]

What are you going to end up playing?


4 Rhino's... Hahaha

I'll be playing all the Rhinos. Here's my current 75:

Main:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Tireless Tracker
4 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Vizier of the Menagerie
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library

4 Path to Exile
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed

Sideboard:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Duress
3 Lost Legacy

I'm very much aiming for the synergy angle here, looking to outmanoeuvre opponents and overpower them with some form of inevitability.

I decided to finally add that damn Stronghold b/c it can create some nice value w/ Courser of Kruphix (thank you, Dryad Arbor) and Vizier of the Menagerie. Maybe I want to include a Diabolic Intent in there somewhere, I don't know.

[Navsi]

Maybe I want to include a Diabolic Intent in there somewhere, I don't know.

I'd play an equipment before I put in an Intent. You're playing Arbor, and Rhino has trample, so you have a ton of good carriers for a Sword or a Jitte and it gives you a lot of inevitability.

[Echelon]

I'd play an equipment before I put in an Intent. You're playing Arbor, and Rhino has trample, so you have a ton of good carriers for a Sword or a Jitte and it gives you a lot of inevitability.

You're awesome.

I have some Grafted Wargears lying around. It's easy to suit up and allows me to keep spending my mana on the mana hungry engines. Question is though - what to cut. Dammit.

[Bobmans]

You're awesome.

I have some Grafted Wargears lying around. It's easy to suit up and allows me to keep spending my mana on the mana hungry engines. Question is though - what to cut. Dammit.
How about Sword of Vengeance.

Anyway, where can i find the latest iteration of SE?

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[fireiced]

You're awesome.

I have some Grafted Wargears lying around. It's easy to suit up and allows me to keep spending my mana on the mana hungry engines. Question is though - what to cut. Dammit.

Based on your latest decklist I would cut either the 3rd DRS or the 3rd Mirri's Guile

[Echelon]

I'm starting to think that w/ Guile replacing Top a Deed might be the right cut if I were to run an equipment. Stifle is seeing some more play and it doesn't really help vs. Gurmag Angler.

[Brael]

Anyway, where can i find the latest iteration of SE?

I posted my list a few posts ago, a BG version atleast, I've got a Junk version too and a Rhino version. Which are you interested in? Or do you want to see them all?

[Arianrhod]

Alright, letás try this again.

First: I still firmly believe that Nic Fit has retained much of its tier 1.5 status in the Topless world, both due to internal adjustments and also due to the shifting metagame, which has resulted in an overall net positive for us. Lots of delver and stoneblade, which, after some adjustments, is a positive matchup.

The struggles I had with various builds vs stoneblade and czech pile inform a lot of my opinions, since those are decks that we should be fundamentally good against, I believe. Our position in the format is as âreigning fair deck,ã and I intend to stay in that position, with the upsides and downsides it endorses (downsides which I have long since accepted and am okay with, such as just usually insta-losing to belcher).

With that said, onward:

Colors

White

I very strongly despise Rhinoás positioning at the moment. Most of this is because of how the metagame has developed. Grixis, the lead Delver deck, as well as BUG, the second-runner, has Fatal Push, which allows them to actually have a removal spell for Rhino and thus not need to Force it. They also have Gurmag and, increasingly, Tombstalker, which can just ignore it. Stoneblade and Neo-miracles are running upwards of 4x Snapcaster with 4x StP and frequently a Councilás Judgment. They can also just ignore Rhino, let it resolve, sure you have a 4-mana Drain-3, and then nuke it and go on with their day.

This is problematic because Rhino isnát the card that wins you those matchups usually...or if it does, it comes after a long period of time when both players resources are drained (although the blue control decks arenát losing resources as quickly as they used to due to deeper snapcaster usage). You need Deed or Deluge to X-for-1 Delver and reset the board to a favorable position (I am aware of Deedás problems vs delve creatures, but you can usually answer those in other methods, like going bigger than them). You need planeswalkers like Nissa VF to help keep up with Jace vs Blade/Miracles/Czech, or some other kind of value engine. All of these things, the blue deck will now have Force for where they wouldnát have before, because Rhino is no longer sufficiently a threat to these decks.

I think that white builds going forward need to look increasingly towards Stoneforge options (more on this later, it has to do with Tracker), or towards superfriends with a pile of Lilianas, Gideons, and Nissas and a skeleton crew of GSZ targets, mostly ramp and recursion based. I donát have the resources to test either of those things on MTGO due to cost (Liliana, Last Hope is like 45 tix apiece, screw that). This is just my impressions.

Red

Redás strength comes from several places:
-) Powerful sideboard options, including best-in-class Pyroblast and Blood Moon
-) Linear, efficient gameplans (Sneak and Scape)
-) Very strong spell suite that generates +CA including PFire and Kommand
-) Chandra, Torch of Defiance, âShe Who Can Keep Up With Jaceã

That being said, it does still have its weaknesses as well, in particular a severe lack of effective storm hate (despite being the best Nic Fit maindeck in the matchup), and, even with all of the extra measures Iáve taken to prevent it, sometimes it does just flood out and die.

Blue

This brings me to blue. As I posted recently, Iáve been working on a BUG list online for a while now. Blue obviously gets to run Jaces and Brainstorms of its own, and Baleful Strix is actually very relevant for a couple of reasons. Experimenting with BUG also led me to rediscovering Stryfoás Pulse of Murasa tech from a couple of months ago -- something which I disagreed with at the time because I viewed Top as sufficient, but is essentially a Kommand for non-red now, which is an effect that weáve badly been wanting. Pulse also does help BUG, in particular, with its historically atrocious burn matchup.

The challenge with BUG, historically, has always been its inability to win games. To that end, I built the deck with a pair of Nissa, Vital Force, and also a Woodland Bellower, poached from Sneak. Bellower has overperformed to hell and back. The deck grinds away as it is wont to do, and then mid-late it slams Bellower on an empty field, and suddenly youáve got two bodies in play and probably a very powerful card in your hand (assuming you get Eternal Witness, which is its default mode). Tracker and Finks are both also strong situationally, though, as it Ooze. Bellower represents a tremendous advantage in this deck, and in fact I would be willing to argue that Bellower is sufficiently powerful in our style of deck that most Nic Fits should be running this card.

Cards

-) Tracker

Letás talk Tracker. Some of us have been underwhelmed by this guy, some blown away. I think the difference comes down to how you build the rest of your deck. For example, in the BUG deck, heás been great. I think a lot of this is owed to Strix -- people use removal on Strixes an awful lot, for various reasons (not wanting me to flashback a therapy for free, not wanting it to trade with their delver/gurmag/goyf/whatever), which opens a door for Tracker to get in unmolested and start doing his thing. In addition, BUG has sufficient card flow to ensure that you continue to combo land drop + Tracker, whereas white and red can run out of lands to play, which neuters his effectiveness.

I think this means that if you build white with Stoneforges, in particular, Tracker will perform well there -- even more so if you have Crop Rot ala Brael or even Knight of the Reliquary, which is a card weáve discussed before and may once again with the GSZ-able Crucible guy happens. I think this also means that Tracker is probably not good enough for Jund builds, unless youáre doing something odd with it.

-) Bellower

Iáve already touched on this above, but I want to re-emphasize that I believe Bellower to be the default 6-drop moving forward, especially in double Witness builds (which I also strongly endorse). He doesnát lose in combat to anything unequipped barring reanimator/show and tell. He can even beat large Goyfs by grabbing Witness for removal or grabbing Ooze to om nom nom. Aside from winning combat, he also generates a ton of card advantage, especially for the typical game state he lands in, where he very frequently just takes over the game.

-) Kommand / Pulse

Iáve boasted about Kommand a lot already, but I want to talk about Pulse of Murasa a little bit. Itás great even with as many Deathrite Shamans as there are -- the Deathrite player never misses a chance to drain you for 2 EoT, which allows you to respond with Pulse to gain 6 and grab a land if youáve been denied or a bomb if you need gas. Plus, thereás a lot of removal in most of my modern Nic Fit lists. Iáve moved to a regime with 4-6 spot removal options and 3-4 sweepers maindeck to maximize the number of draw steps that we see and also to keep Deathrite under control, since Iám leaning on recursion more for card advantage.

I do believe that Kommand is better than Pulse when given the option to run either, but I donát think the gap is that large.

-) Dryad Arbor

Arbor is fine if youáre on Intent, but otherwise Iám still kind of soft on it. I have been impressed by the number of utility functions that Iáve found for the card -- surprise blocking, fetching for Therapy flashback, EoT making a 1/1 to hit a planeswalker with....all of these things have come up. I know Sam has had success Zenith for 0, but for me, I tend to lose games I Zenith for 0. It feels like throwing away a Zenith, which is usually one of our best cards. I hate having Arbor in my hand. I absolutely detest it. I would rather just not play it than have it in my hand. When itás in the deck, though, itás fine. With Intent, I think itás a necessary evil, and Intent is really good in Sneak, so Iám begrudgingly fine with it.

I mostly just want to caution against Dryad Arbor being too highly regarded. Itás fine in some builds, it serves a purpose, but you really need to have that purpose in mind before putting it in your deck.

-) Lost Legacy

Not a fan anymore. The combo decks have diversified themselves too much. It might be different for Brael with his 4x copies and Deathrites to help achieve LL on turn 2, but for me with a pair of them and no Deathrites, itás not good enough. Storm is running Empty and Tendrils main, and donát even get me started on OmniSneakShowBreachTell.

-) Deathrite

Speaking of this guy, I still donát like it -- but Iáve refocused on the narrative of being a Pernicious Deed control deck, as opposed to being a midrange value deck. I was only ever running 1 or at most 2 copies, and we are ill equipped to fight against Delver or Deathblade -- decks that are literally built, ground up, to fight and win against other Deathrite Shaman decks. They have the selection, removal, and tempo to effectively fight opposing Shamans. We donát...or at least, I am unwilling to take the steps necessary to change that.

-) Surgical Extraction

Just wanted to note that I board these in against any deck with Snapcaster Mage nowadays. Blue fair decks have learned the same lesson that we have about recursion being powerful card advantage in the current meta, and are leaning heavily on Snapcaster Mage to double up on counters and removal. Fighting their Snapcasters effectively is very important. Deathrite doesnát get the job done, and even Ooze is questionable -- you can eat a bunch of stuff before he dies, but you usually canát get everything. Deathrite is embarassing at fighting Snapcaster in the midgame because heáll die to Snap+removal before he becomes active. Surgical being a àfreeá spell is very, very strong here.

-) Intent / Whisper / Truths

These cards arenát the kinds of x-for-1s that weáre usually in the market for, although I do like boarding a pair of Truths (more on this later). This mostly has to do with resource economy. We are using our life total as a resource pool, especially in combination with a large amount of removal. We want to keep ourselves healthy to ensure that we have draw steps. We want to maintain our board presence -- plus there arenát actually a ton of creatures that are great sac fodder for Intent: basically Arbor, Vets, Witnesses, and Zeniths. Otherwise you -can- sacrifice creatures, but itás at a loss. Maybe Lingering Souls is an option for white builds to get around this? Either way, while the theory behind these cards is right, I am not convinced that the execution is.

Matchups

Grixis Delver, BUG Delver, Stoneblade (Bant and Esper) -- lumping these together to save time. All of these are our matchups to lose with my current lists. I think Iám at something like 80% vs Grixis Delver -- not a bye, certainly, but very favored. Target their Force of Wills with your Therapies, as itás their only effective way of stopping us from just having our way with them now. With Sneak, I sideboard out my Sneaks and Emrakul in these matchups and just go full control.

Czech Pile -- This matchup is really close and fun and interactive, with my current lists. Again, not talking about white builds here, because I couldnát make that work. But with Sneak and BUG, we can actually grind effectively against most of their draws. This only happened after a lot of work, though -- earlier lists just got smashed. Also, there is a lot of variance in this matchup due to intricacies of both our list -and- their list: most Czech Pile lists are rather different from one another.

Death and Taxes -- Depends on the build somewhat. The Eldrazi version is hardest for us -- maindeck Containment Priest is an asshole, Ancient Tomb speeds them up tremendously sometimes, especially with like equipping dudes, and they almost always have Gideon, Ally of Zendikar in the board, who is a pain in the ass to deal with. They also generally have the highest number of Revokers. The red version is much worse against us, but you do need to watch out for Pia & Kiran + Karakas, which forms a really obnoxious engine. The mono-white traditional build is easy with the exception of them landing a Mirran Crusader when you arenát prepared for it.

Neo-Miracles -- This has actually been fine for my current lists, once I refocused on the narrative of card advantage and recursion. I think Iáve only lost to this deck once, by a particularly aggressive player who targeted me with every Portent and Predict, and I couldnát get through his constant fucking with my deck. Every other Miracles player has targeted himself with these spells and I believe Iáve beaten all of them in the last week or two. Note that that means Sneak and BUG. White builds had a horrible matchup here.

Storm -- The combo deck du jour at the moment. White has the best sideboard by a mile for this deck, with Kambal, in particular, being a hilariously unreasonable card. Red has the worst, but has the best maindeck gameplan to compensate. Blue is in the middle on both.

Elves -- This is still largely awful. Itás winnable depending on your list, and Iáve actually beaten it a couple times with the BUG build, but I still hate this deck and I always will. Note that they frequently have Progenitus in the sideboard for Natural Order, which is a severe problem for most decks, unless you can manuever the game state into a place where you can race him if he swings.

Thereás a bunch of other stuff that Iáve played against but theyáre all like 1-of or 2-of decks that I donát feel like going into.

Summary / Closing Thoughts

Nic Fit in general needs to check off the following boxes at the moment:

-) Keep up with Jace TMS, usually through a planeswalker engine of your own. BUG, Jace of your own; Jund, Chandra; white....who knows? Kaya isnát good enough, since he has to downtick for advantage.

-) Be able to load up on 2-for-1s, in particular through a second Witness, a Bellower, and Kommand and/or Pulse of Murasa. Strix is also great, as is Punishing Fire. Tracker isnát a cure-all for this problem. This is especially important when fighting against a wall of counterspells and Snapcasters -- they need to have too many threats to counter. We need to overload them with value until they begin to fall behind, and then land a haymaker to push through. Once the fair blue decks are on their back foot, itás incredibly hard for them to claw back, Iáve found.

-) Have an effective sideboard. This shouldnát need to be said, but, here we are. The format is actually fairly open at the moment, and you need to be able to answer a lot of strange things. Universal answers are great -- look at Jund: Pyroblast universally answers a whole mess of stuff, and Blood Moon solves Merit Lage while also nuking nonbasic heavy decks from orbit. If red had an effective way of hating out Storm, Iád be much happier, but itás hard to have literally everything. This is why Iám running the 2 Negate 1 Invasive 1 Dispel package in the BUG sideboard -- you have coverage against basically anything with that. In addition, you canát ignore the the fair decks the way we used to. I typically have 2 Painful Truths in the board specifically for grindy matchups, along with anything else I would otherwise board in.

-) I haven't been able to stream much due to my living conditions being busy / loud recently. I'll be on vacation next week, returning July 1, and hope to stream a bit more once I get home. I should still be able to post a bit next week, going to take my laptop with me. We will see.

Hope that helps, there's my thoughts. It's not quite as good as the one I had written originally, but it's close enough.

[Bobmans]

I posted my list a few posts ago, a BG version atleast, I've got a Junk version too and a Rhino version. Which are you interested in? Or do you want to see them all?
Junk preferably. I like the idea of staking low to the ground and the addition of hatebears, Plow and ultimately Sigarda.

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[Dadadot]

I got back after a longer magic hiatus. Top got banned and although I'm happy miracles is kinda gone I really am sad about the loss.
This is my updated list. If somebody could update me on the noteworthy cards added in the last month (tireless tracker addition is about when i stopped playing) i would be grateful.

Ideas about the deck:
- I like the landbase. Though two bayous could bring a bit more flexibility in tight spots I like the added the lategame veteran explorer/tireless tracker synergy which would normally loose it's steam a lot earlier. Also wasteland seems to be everywhere now.
- I cut the Witness mostly because this card never really felt satisfying. Mostly it felt like a "lose more slowly"-card. Using my graveyard as a resource for drs and tombstalker (which is a nice, cheap bomb through delve) seems much more valuable.
- Mirri's guile is awesome with sdt gone. I feel like I need card selection more than I need card advantage (which is provided through tracker if need be). The occasional wipe with deed is probably a nombo but neglectable in my opinion.
- Most problematic decks are for me: 12post, lands and show and tell decks. 12post is probably unwinnable in any case (maybe if jesus came down from heaven to help) but with lands i don't know exactly. I would happily take suggestions.
- My sideboard is mainly tailored towards stuff i hate the most. I'd be happy about suggestions.
- Nissa is just sick.


Thanks in advance!


4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Phyrexian Tower

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tireless Tracker
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Tombstalker

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Path to Exile
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Vindicate
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Mirri's Guile
1 Nissa, Vital Force

SB:
1 Containment Priest
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Lost Legacy
2 Pithing Needle
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Sigarda, Heron's Grace

[Brael]

Junk preferably. I like the idea of staking low to the ground and the addition of hatebears, Plow and ultimately Sigarda.



SE mostly gives up on Sigarda because you're focusing more on card velocity rather than quality. Sigarda is good when you have few threats and need to ensure something survives. It's less good when you can go wide and overload your opponents ability to answer threats. It's still not bad in that situation, but playing Sigarda is a big tempo hit when you could otherwise use 5 mana on playing two cards.

Here's a SFM list I've been tinkering with, you might like it. I've only played it in paper a couple times, lots of goldfishing with it on tappedout though. It generates a good amount of advantage but I just don't have the reps with it against other decks to see if it works or not.

Land 23
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor

Creatures 18
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tireless Tracker

Spells 20
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Path to Exile
2 Crop Rotation
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

I'll leave the sideboard to you, but I strongly recommend including the following:
1 Crop Rotation
1 Maze of Ith
1 Treetop Village
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Lost Legacy

You can't get much lower to the ground in Nic Fit than this. If you're looking for another 2 drop, Qasali Pridemage is what I would look at.

[Bobmans]

SE mostly gives up on Sigarda because you're focusing more on card velocity rather than quality. Sigarda is good when you have few threats and need to ensure something survives. It's less good when you can go wide and overload your opponents ability to answer threats. It's still not bad in that situation, but playing Sigarda is a big tempo hit when you could otherwise use 5 mana on playing two cards.

Here's a SFM list I've been tinkering with, you might like it. I've only played it in paper a couple times, lots of goldfishing with it on tappedout though. It generates a good amount of advantage but I just don't have the reps with it against other decks to see if it works or not.

Land 23
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor

Creatures 18
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tireless Tracker

Spells 20
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Path to Exile
2 Crop Rotation
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

I'll leave the sideboard to you, but I strongly recommend including the following:
1 Crop Rotation
1 Maze of Ith
1 Treetop Village
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Lost Legacy

You can't get much lower to the ground in Nic Fit than this. If you're looking for another 2 drop, Qasali Pridemage is what I would look at.
How important is Veteran Explorer for your gameplan, I mean i can see 3 Veteran Explorer main with 4 Deathrite Shaman.

Also i can see a Jund splash happen here, going with PFire, Liliana, KCommand, Scooze and something toolboxie to replace the SFM Package

[Brael]

How important is Veteran Explorer for your gameplan, I mean i can see 3 Veteran Explorer main with 4 Deathrite Shaman.

Also i can see a Jund splash happen here, going with PFire, Liliana, KCommand, Scooze and something toolboxie to replace the SFM Package

You're better off minimizing colors rather than splashing extras. It adds to the plan of having more consistency. The version I most often play is actually BG with no third color.

Vet is pretty important, it's not 100% required, but you would really like to have 3 mana on T2 at a minimum, and ideally 5 mana. Here's your mana openings and their yields on T2:
Vet+Therapy = 3
GSZ+Arbor = 3
DRS = 3
Vet+Tower = 5
Vet+Crop Rotation (for Tower) = 4
DRS+Crop Rotation = 4
GSZ+Crop Rotation = 4
DRS+Tower = 5
GSZ+Tower = 4

I think that's all of them. The reason you want 3 is so that you can play a 2 drop through Daze or so you can play something to advance your gameplan while also holding up some sort of interaction.

4 Vet is definitely better than cutting some for DRS though.

[Echelon]

I think that's all of them. The reason you want 3 is so that you can play a 2 drop through Daze or so you can play something to advance your gameplan while also holding up some sort of interaction.

Dryad Arbor -> Phyrexian Tower.

It's horrible AF, but 3 mana is 3 mana.


I very strongly despise Rhinoás positioning at the moment. Most of this is because of how the metagame has developed. Grixis, the lead Delver deck, as well as BUG, the second-runner, has Fatal Push, which allows them to actually have a removal spell for Rhino and thus not need to Force it. They also have Gurmag and, increasingly, Tombstalker, which can just ignore it. Stoneblade and Neo-miracles are running upwards of 4x Snapcaster with 4x StP and frequently a Councilás Judgment. They can also just ignore Rhino, let it resolve, sure you have a 4-mana Drain-3, and then nuke it and go on with their day.

This is problematic because Rhino isnát the card that wins you those matchups usually...or if it does, it comes after a long period of time when both players resources are drained (although the blue control decks arenát losing resources as quickly as they used to due to deeper snapcaster usage). You need Deed or Deluge to X-for-1 Delver and reset the board to a favorable position (I am aware of Deedás problems vs delve creatures, but you can usually answer those in other methods, like going bigger than them). You need planeswalkers like Nissa VF to help keep up with Jace vs Blade/Miracles/Czech, or some other kind of value engine. All of these things, the blue deck will now have Force for where they wouldnát have before, because Rhino is no longer sufficiently a threat to these decks.

I think that white builds going forward need to look increasingly towards Stoneforge options (more on this later, it has to do with Tracker), or towards superfriends with a pile of Lilianas, Gideons, and Nissas and a skeleton crew of GSZ targets, mostly ramp and recursion based. I donát have the resources to test either of those things on MTGO due to cost (Liliana, Last Hope is like 45 tix apiece, screw that). This is just my impressions.

...

-) Dryad Arbor

Arbor is fine if youáre on Intent, but otherwise Iám still kind of soft on it. I have been impressed by the number of utility functions that Iáve found for the card -- surprise blocking, fetching for Therapy flashback, EoT making a 1/1 to hit a planeswalker with....all of these things have come up. I know Sam has had success Zenith for 0, but for me, I tend to lose games I Zenith for 0. It feels like throwing away a Zenith, which is usually one of our best cards. I hate having Arbor in my hand. I absolutely detest it. I would rather just not play it than have it in my hand. When itás in the deck, though, itás fine. With Intent, I think itás a necessary evil, and Intent is really good in Sneak, so Iám begrudgingly fine with it.

I mostly just want to caution against Dryad Arbor being too highly regarded. Itás fine in some builds, it serves a purpose, but you really need to have that purpose in mind before putting it in your deck.

-) Lost Legacy

Not a fan anymore. The combo decks have diversified themselves too much. It might be different for Brael with his 4x copies and Deathrites to help achieve LL on turn 2, but for me with a pair of them and no Deathrites, itás not good enough. Storm is running Empty and Tendrils main, and donát even get me started on OmniSneakShowBreachTell.

-) Deathrite

Speaking of this guy, I still donát like it -- but Iáve refocused on the narrative of being a Pernicious Deed control deck, as opposed to being a midrange value deck. I was only ever running 1 or at most 2 copies, and we are ill equipped to fight against Delver or Deathblade -- decks that are literally built, ground up, to fight and win against other Deathrite Shaman decks. They have the selection, removal, and tempo to effectively fight opposing Shamans. We donát...or at least, I am unwilling to take the steps necessary to change that.

The G1s against the decks you name are hard, but postboard I feel like we're favored, around 60/40-ish. My plan has been to board in Duress and Lost Legacy. It sorta mirrors their tempo (blanking their mana denial long enough to get your manabase going) and lets you interact with the cards that hurt you most. It makes the MUs very doable.

-) Dryad Arbor - I guess the bottom line is that you have to have a very good reason to run it, and have to know very well what you're doing.

-) Lost Legacy - it's not just for the combo MUs. It's a nice, big raised middle finger to whatever bugs you. And you know what also helps with that T2 Lost Legacy..? That silly Arbor.

-) Deathrite Shaman - just make sure you also keep running the best Deathrite Shaman in the format - Scavenging Ooze. It's the best card ever to combat opposing DRS's. That being said, I do enjoy having 3 DRS in my MD. They're nice little lightning rods that sometimes even eat a Fatal Push. People don't like it when you start messing with their DRS, lol.

[fireiced]

Below is my Sneaky Fit list which I have used to win FNMs quite a bit and doing 4-1 on MTGO


Creatures 16
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Fierce Empath
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Inferno Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Sorcery 11
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Night's Whispers
1 Diabolic Intent

Instant 5
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Kolaghan's Command

Enchantment 6
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Sneak Attack

Planeswalker 1
1 Nissa Vital Force

Lands 21
2 Bayou
2 Badlands
2 Taiga
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard::
2 Blood Moon
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Slaughter Games
2 Pyroblast
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Kolaghan's Command


Have yet to try Grave Titan but I take he is beasty. My hate for Elf and DnT is too strong to drop Inferno Titan.
Meren has been underperforming but I kept including her because of her synergy with Steve, I guess she will come out for Scooze
I want to remove Volrath's Stronghold but I just cannot find a spell land to replace. Absolutely sure that slot is a spell land slot. If I was on the punishing groove plan it be easy but I prefer the Fatal Push as my go to removal of choice here. Likely due to playstyle where I rather quickly want to sneak something in and do irreparable damage.

[Echelon]

I want to remove Volrath's Stronghold but I just cannot find a spell land to replace. Absolutely sure that slot is a spell land slot.

Simple. Phyrexian Tower #2.

[Brael]

Dryad Arbor -> Phyrexian Tower.

It's horrible AF, but 3 mana is 3 mana.


I don't count that one as an opening because GBB doesn't cast very much, and only leaves you with colorless as a followup. And if that's your opening you'll have spent 0 mana on T1.

[Arianrhod]

Simple. Phyrexian Tower #2.

Agreed, especially if your playstyle dictates that you are still aggressively sneaking people.

[Brael]

How important is Veteran Explorer for your gameplan, I mean i can see 3 Veteran Explorer main with 4 Deathrite Shaman.

Also i can see a Jund splash happen here, going with PFire, Liliana, KCommand, Scooze and something toolboxie to replace the SFM Package

Responding again with two more lists.

Here's my Rhino list. I believe it to be better than the SFM list, but I don't have any concrete proof of that, it's just a feeling because Rhino's are good
Land 23
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savanah
1 Scrubland
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Maze of Ith

Creature 18
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
2 Tireless Tracker
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk

Spells 20
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library
1 Vindicate
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pernicious Deed

I know you like Sigarda, but I would suggest against it in this list. 5 drops really need lifegain when paired with Dark Confidant. In the lands you'll note the Maze/Karakas swap. This is because I've found Maze to be super powerful with Rhino/Tusk as you can attack, but then untap in end of combat to threaten blocks as well.

Also, here's my GB list again, just to get them all in one spot. GB is my preferred list right now.
Land 25
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
5 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Maze of Ith

Creature 18
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth

Spells 19
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Nissa, Vital Force

Sideboard 15
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Crop Rotation
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Golgari Charm
1 Karakas
4 Lost Legacy
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Treetop Village
1 Open

[fireiced]

Simple. Phyrexian Tower #2.


Agreed, especially if your playstyle dictates that you are still aggressively sneaking people.

In a roll with 2x Towers on MTGO right now. There is however a feeling we do not have enough fuel to fuel this much saccing of critters. Same feeling when I was running 2 Intents with 1 Tower :wink:

[Brael]

In a roll with 2x Towers on MTGO right now. There is however a feeling we do not have enough fuel to fuel this much saccing of critters. Same feeling when I was running 2 Intents with 1 Tower :wink:

You don't need to sacrifice every turn. Tower is for occasional rather than consistent acceleration. It's a way to hit between 3 and 5 mana on T2, or protect something from exile removal. You should only be activating it for BB a couple times per game.

[Echelon]

In a roll with 2x Towers on MTGO right now. There is however a feeling we do not have enough fuel to fuel this much saccing of critters. Same feeling when I was running 2 Intents with 1 Tower :wink:

You can also just tap it for colorless... :laugh:

On a different note - I am cutting a Deed but am not running an equipment. I still want to be able to mess with my opponents' stuff (and particularly stuff that bothers me) so I'm running a Vindicate instead of a Deed. It answers pretty much literally any card that can possibly bother me (yes, yes, there's TTN, Progenitus, Emrakul, shush shush) where Deed sometimes can't. Its similar CMC also means it doesn't worsen my mana curve, which is nice.

[Brael]

You can also just tap it for colorless... :laugh:

On a different note - I am cutting a Deed but am not running an equipment. I still want to be able to mess with my opponents' stuff (and particularly stuff that bothers me) so I'm running a Vindicate instead of a Deed. It answers pretty much literally any card that can possibly bother me (yes, yes, there's TTN, Progenitus, Emrakul, shush shush) where Deed sometimes can't. Its similar CMC also means it doesn't worsen my mana curve, which is nice.

Did you ever play Crop Rotation like you wanted to test?
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Marsh Flats

Those can be your cuts right there for
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Crop Rotation

If you own a second Tower you could try it out as well.

I bet Crop Rotation is strong with Vizier.

[Echelon]

Did you ever play Crop Rotation like you wanted to test?
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Marsh Flats

Those can be your cuts right there for
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Crop Rotation

If you own a second Tower you could try it out as well.

I bet Crop Rotation is strong with Vizier.

Never got to it.

Goddammit.

Can't cut a Marsh by the way - I'm already on just 21 land. Bog is a spell, not a land.

[Brael]

Never got to it.

Goddammit.

Can't cut a Marsh by the way - I'm already on just 21 land. Bog is a spell, not a land.

Bog is still a land, just not a T1 land. Marsh is the weakest of the fetches. Without the second Marsh Flats you would still have 13 sources of T1 black, which is enough. If you're looking for a spell to replace though, DRS #3 fills a similar role as mana+GY hate. But it's not as tutorable.

[Echelon]

Bog is still a land, just not a T1 land. Marsh is the weakest of the fetches. Without the second Marsh Flats you would still have 13 sources of T1 black, which is enough. If you're looking for a spell to replace though, DRS #3 fills a similar role as mana+GY hate. But it's not as tutorable.

Without Marsh I'm also down to 13 green sources, which is dangerously low.

But... Your craziness would put me on the following list:

Main:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Bojuka Bog

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Tireless Tracker
4 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Vizier of the Menagerie
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library
2 Crop Rotation

4 Path to Exile
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Pernicious Deed

Sideboard:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Duress
3 Lost Legacy

I'm going to have to sleep on this.

I've been running 2 P. Towers for a long time, by the way. I do like it. Just don't have the room to run 2 copies of it and Stronghold.

[Brael]

I'm looking at the new cards, thoughts on Doomfall?

2B Sorcery
Choose 1:
Target opponent exiles a creature
Target opponent reveals hand, you choose a non land card and exile it

[Dadadot]

too slow to expensive?

echolon:
could you elaborate on the role of the crop rotations in the list?

[tescrin]

http://media.wizards.com/2017/hou/en_hmLUjsTTGZ.png

I think this has a lot of potential here. This deck actually gets enough mana to make it good I think. I could see BUG-Fit becoming a weird Burn-deck with this. Using your loadsa removal/Therapy to drain their resources, and playing this at X=4 or 5, you probably just win. 3x damage multiplier is huge and I think a deck like this made to jam loads of mana can take advantage of either loadsa card advantage or damage. Even if your opponent opts to take 12 and you suffer CDA; you're probably 1-2 DRS activations from killing them at that point.

I think it plays really well with additional copies of itself too, since if you do do it twice in a row where your opp actually gets to choose they'll be both way behind on cards and way behind in a life race. I think there's a definite brew here.

[Echelon]

too slow to expensive?

echolon:
could you elaborate on the role of the crop rotations in the list?

Apart from a possibke T1 gy sweep vs. various decks?

Basically it's extra copies of Stronghold for when you have Courser/Vizier out. Also plays well w/ Tracker. Turn a land into a fetch into another land to filter 4 cards from your deck at the cost of a single card. Basically just enables just a bunch of value plays.

I still have to think it through some more, I'm not sold on it quite yet. For now I'm still leaning towards just swapping a Deed for a Vindicate.

As for the Torment thing - I fear it's too situational/win more. But I do hope to be proven wrong.

[Warden]

http://media.wizards.com/2017/hou/en_hmLUjsTTGZ.png

I think this has a lot of potential here. This deck actually gets enough mana to make it good I think. I could see BUG-Fit becoming a weird Burn-deck with this. Using your loadsa removal/Therapy to drain their resources, and playing this at X=4 or 5, you probably just win. 3x damage multiplier is huge and I think a deck like this made to jam loads of mana can take advantage of either loadsa card advantage or damage. Even if your opponent opts to take 12 and you suffer CDA; you're probably 1-2 DRS activations from killing them at that point.

I think it plays really well with additional copies of itself too, since if you do do it twice in a row where your opp actually gets to choose they'll be both way behind on cards and way behind in a life race. I think there's a definite brew here.

Against fair decks, this has potential. Against Delver I feel you're vulnerable to counters. Against combo (say, Storm) or something like Lands what is this thing doing? Storm goes off before this is relevant. Reanimator or Sneak won't have issues with this either. Lands doesn't give a shit about its hand. Feels win-more overall for matchups/strategies we should already trounce.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So I finally put a Bone Picker list (Pic Fit?) together. The only thing I want that I don't play (because I haven't picked one up yet) is a V's Stronghold.

1 Dryad Arbor
1 DRS
4 VE
1 Channeler Initiate
1 Steve
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 E. Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
4 Bone Picker
1 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

2 Lingering Souls
4 Cabal Therapy
3 GSZ
2 Evo Leap
2 Crop Rotation
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Toxic Deluge
3 PtE
1 Push
2 Deed

1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Forest
1 Savannah
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats

I have no board at this time as I'd like to continue on the main until I have it smoothed out. The Flats will become the Stronghold when I aquire it. Anything inherently incorrect, missing, or otherwise out of place? Any suggestions?

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[Brael]

Against fair decks, this has potential.

I'm not seeing it. It's a 3 mana 1 for 1, 4 mana 2 for 1, 5 mana 3 for 1. That's all baseline efficiency and it doesn't even hit the cards you care about. To make it good you need to pump a lot of mana into it.

In EDH though, this card seems so far above the curve that it doesn't even look fun.

[Brael]

too slow to expensive?

echolon:
could you elaborate on the role of the crop rotations in the list?

To the Slaughter is 3 mana removal we regularly play.

What this card brings to the table is an exile based edict.
Exile based discard so there's no graveyard tricks to be played.
An option, it lets you pack in both a proactive and reactive answer in one card.

This card is pushed. The discard option is worth 2 mana as a card, the edict is worth 2 and maybe 3. The choice is worth some amount of mana too. This card is definitely above rate, and we're a deck that can realistically play 3 drops.

The only downside is that it's a sorcery.

Crop Rotation has several uses. It's mana acceleration, a sac outlet, combo interaction, a threat, and removal all in one card.

[Echelon]

Bad news. Quarterly has been moved to next week.

Will be playtesting with my buddy tomorrow instead. I'll let you guys know tne results monday.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So no interest in the list above? That's a shame. It's goldfishing beautifully, but I'm missing Stronghold a lot. I will pick one up.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[removedfromgame]

So i've done something unthinkable and cut deed #3 for an abzan charm to positive results. (4 rhino build) It serves as removal for a bunch of problematic cards and sometimes throwing two counters on a sigarda changes the clock, or lets rhinos fight through anglers. Worst case you get to cycle for two cards and that sometimes helps consistency depending on where you are in a match.

I tend to value modal cards high because I like having a bunch of differeny avenues. I've used it to deal with a flipped delver which helped me stabilize. At least having the option is nice.

Edit: i saw a few pages back i read about woodland bellower tech for rhinos. I've tried it and wasn't too impressed, but my 3 drop slot has been getting a little clogged up lately and i'm kind of down to have a nice way of looping it back for some late game values.

I'm also considering cutting decays for collective brutality.

[Moroklumpen]

My local meta is becoming somewhat overrun with grindy, midrangy decks, and I figured Nic Fit would be a good choice to go over the top. Specifically, 4C Loam, which has been my deck of choice for well over a year, has become very common, with Jund and Maverick sometimes tagging in. There's a pretty wide selection of interactive blue decks bein played; Delver variants (mostly Grixis and Sultai these days) are the most common, but we have a couple of Miracles diehards around (not many but they show up consistently), as well as a fair number of midrangier Deathblade and Sultai variants. The most popular combo decks are easily Reanimator and Sneak and Show with Elves a distant third; everything else is sporadic at best. Lands and Death and Taxes do show up consistently but not in great numbers, and that's pretty much what we've been seeing around here lately.

Given this metagame, are there any good angles to attack? I figure I can pretty much ignore combo as long as I make room for a set of Leylines in the side and some GSZ targets in the main; the only question is whether I should try to beat S&S or simply write it off as a lost cause. Lands is my other main worry; while it hasn't been very popular lately it could easily surge back, as I know a few players who have it built and could easily dust it off if they decide the time is ripe. The same goes for Elves, only less so, and I'm prepared to take that loss if it comes up.

So, can you guys advise me on any directions to take the deck in that would be noticeably better or worse than others, given this meta?

[Brael]

My local meta is becoming somewhat overrun with grindy, midrangy decks, and I figured Nic Fit would be a good choice to go over the top. Specifically, 4C Loam, which has been my deck of choice for well over a year, has become very common, with Jund and Maverick sometimes tagging in. There's a pretty wide selection of interactive blue decks bein played; Delver variants (mostly Grixis and Sultai these days) are the most common, but we have a couple of Miracles diehards around (not many but they show up consistently), as well as a fair number of midrangier Deathblade and Sultai variants. The most popular combo decks are easily Reanimator and Sneak and Show with Elves a distant third; everything else is sporadic at best. Lands and Death and Taxes do show up consistently but not in great numbers, and that's pretty much what we've been seeing around here lately.

Given this metagame, are there any good angles to attack? I figure I can pretty much ignore combo as long as I make room for a set of Leylines in the side and some GSZ targets in the main; the only question is whether I should try to beat S&S or simply write it off as a lost cause. Lands is my other main worry; while it hasn't been very popular lately it could easily surge back, as I know a few players who have it built and could easily dust it off if they decide the time is ripe. The same goes for Elves, only less so, and I'm prepared to take that loss if it comes up.

So, can you guys advise me on any directions to take the deck in that would be noticeably better or worse than others, given this meta?

Crop Rotation does a lot for your combo machups, you don't have to write them off.

SE Rhino is probably good. Speaking of which, I need to give Echelon this guild, just so he has even more to ponder:
Land 24
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savanah
1 Scrubland
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas

Creature 17
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness
2 Tireless Tracker
4 Siege Rhino

Spells 20
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
4 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
1 Vindicate
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pernicious Deed

Rhinos the way they were meant to be played.

[Echelon]

My local meta is becoming somewhat overrun with grindy, midrangy decks, and I figured Nic Fit would be a good choice to go over the top. Specifically, 4C Loam, which has been my deck of choice for well over a year, has become very common, with Jund and Maverick sometimes tagging in. There's a pretty wide selection of interactive blue decks bein played; Delver variants (mostly Grixis and Sultai these days) are the most common, but we have a couple of Miracles diehards around (not many but they show up consistently), as well as a fair number of midrangier Deathblade and Sultai variants. The most popular combo decks are easily Reanimator and Sneak and Show with Elves a distant third; everything else is sporadic at best. Lands and Death and Taxes do show up consistently but not in great numbers, and that's pretty much what we've been seeing around here lately.

Given this metagame, are there any good angles to attack? I figure I can pretty much ignore combo as long as I make room for a set of Leylines in the side and some GSZ targets in the main; the only question is whether I should try to beat S&S or simply write it off as a lost cause. Lands is my other main worry; while it hasn't been very popular lately it could easily surge back, as I know a few players who have it built and could easily dust it off if they decide the time is ripe. The same goes for Elves, only less so, and I'm prepared to take that loss if it comes up.

So, can you guys advise me on any directions to take the deck in that would be noticeably better or worse than others, given this meta?

Well, if you're on Junk Fit I can recommend my own SB. It's perfectly capable of manhandling either of those MUs G2 & 3 (as long as they don't have the stone cold nuts T1/T2). As for lists, I'll come to that further down this post.


Crop Rotation does a lot for your combo machups, you don't have to write them off.

SE Rhino is probably good. Speaking of which, I need to give Echelon this guild, just so he has even more to ponder:

...Thing of beauty...

Rhinos the way they were meant to be played.

You're a monster. A great and wonderful monster, but a monster nonetheless.

Now for the important bit. I've done a nice daysworth of playtesting yesterday w/ Mirri's Guile and the short of it is that I honestly think it's better than SDT.

Seriously, you wouldn't believe the shit it let me get away with. It, together w/ enough fetchlands (and later in the game GSZ), is such a powerful engine that it lets you power through everything Grixis Delver can throw at you. Drop it T1, and by T3 you'll have looked at 6 cards (and have picked out the best 2) @0 cost after sinking your first mana into Guile. It allows you to compete w/ them on card selection level, allowing you to answer whatever they throw at you or even aggressively present a threat they must answer in order to stay in the game (which, by the way, can be as simple as dropping a DRS. Seriously). In only a days worth of testing I've had several games vs. both D&T & Grixis Delver where only drawing into a specific sequence of 2/3 cards could have saved me from certain death and I pulled it off thanks to Guile. Heck, at some point a well timed fetch even got me the Cabal Therapy I needed (it was the 3rd card from the top) to strip away a Batterskull my opponent just SFM'd up. It was epic. There were also multiple times where manipulating the top of my library allowed me to shuffle away chunks of land at least a turn earlier than I would've been able to otherwise. From what I experienced yesterday, Grixis Delver is back as a positive MU for my list and D&T was just a cakewalk - they couldn't handle the pressure my list put on them, it was insane.

Now for some card specific things:
- Vindicate over Deed #3: Felt fine. Not great, but just fine. Might want Toxic Deluge there instead of Vindicate, not sure yet. Might be meta dependant.
- Courser of Kruphix: Overperformed greatly. The simple act of clearing away land from the top of my library allowed me to select things I wanted to play w/ Guile whilst expanding my manabase. Very powerful. I'll likely almost never GSZ for it (unless I need a creature and GSZ for X = 3 is all I can muster) though, but always love having it. Clearing away a land (just in itself) might not seem that special, but do remember that clearing away that land means that you're effectively 1 turn ahead in draws (and therefor 1 turn closer to drawing what you do need).
- Vizier of the Menagerie: Didn't see it all day, or just once but I had lethal the next turn so it didn't matter all that much. At some point I did have the 2 Towers out, so it would have been beyond awesome. If it starts disappointing, I could see this turning into Courser #2.
- Volrath's Stronghold: Never leaving home without it anymore. All it did yesterday was put back a Sigarda but in all honesty, what more could you want?
- Tireless Tracker: Did not have its day yesterday. Had it out once, never got to cracking clues (even though I had 4 at some point) - I had too many other things to do. Will keep it in for now.

And to share the most awesome turn I had yesterday - it was late in the game, I just managed to stabilize (vs. Grixis Delver) and went Cabal Therapy -> Strip away the TNN I knew about, PtE on Sultai Scavenger, Eternal Witness, PtE on flipped Delver of Secrets.

@Arianrhod: If you want to fix Sneak Fit's consistency issues, just run 10 fetchlands and a bunch of Guiles. Problem solved. Seriously, I shit you not.

[battousai555]

Hey, bros. Just made the switch to BUG Nic Fit with THIS (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15808&d=297075&f=LE) list and am really liking the improved combo match-ups. I was wondering if anyone could help me with sideboarding, as it is quite a bit different than Junk. For example, I was practicing against Eldrazi today and really didn't know what to do. The guy had Jitte, so Leovold was nice because it made him think twice about pinging my Strixes. Endbringer was also affected because he couldn't draw cards with it, but otherwise Leovold seemed pretty blah. So maybe take one out? I also thought Clique wasn't the greatest because even if I can snipe a Reality Smasher or something like that, they can easily just draw another one due to the redundancy of the deck. I replaced Clique with Tracker because I don't have too many big guys; does that make sense? Maelstrom Pulse also seems good, but I'm not sure what to take out. Should Deluge come in? Seems great because it can wipe the board, but the life loss is a concern due to their constant pressure. I also assume what comes in and out changes depending on play vs. draw.

I'm also curious as to what I do for Delver in general (or Grixis in particular since it's so popular). I would think Nissa comes out because she's so likely to get Pierced or Dazed, and Fatal Push could replace her. Dismember and Pulse also seem pretty good for Grixis's Gurmags, but again I don't know what to take out. Jace is also pretty expensive, but he's also really strong...

For Death and Taxes I think I want Golgari Charm, Toxic Deluge, Fatal Push, Maelstrom Pulse, and Painful Truths. Maybe both FoWs and all 3 planeswalkers come out? *Any* advice would be greatly appreciated.

[lowpass]

New Nyx Fit toy just spoiled:

http://media.wizards.com/2017/hou/en_sesUcKUkTI.png

One-sided Humility with a (pretty minor) bonus.

[Brael]

Now for the important bit. I've done a nice daysworth of playtesting yesterday w/ Mirri's Guile and the short of it is that I honestly think it's better than SDT.


I haven't played with it much, but I actually agree with you just from my experiences with SDT. As I've mentioned a couple times even before the ban I had been moving away from SDT because I found it to be too slow. It was adding a good 5 turns to each of my games on average because to use it early would significantly slow down your starting velocity and it was just too much of a mana sink. I'm looking for optional mana sinks, not something that I need to commit to every turn. Guile is just one mana, and is therefore acceptable as a card quality tool. But I'm still hesitant to add many. I may order a couple and try out 1 or maybe 2, assuming I can figure out some cuts. I've really been liking my 4 Tracker setup.

[Echelon]

@Brael. Just proxy 3 and try a few games. They should be sick w/ your Confidants.

You can thank me later :laugh:.

[Brael]

@Brael. Just proxy 3 and try a few games. They should be sick w/ your Confidants.

You can thank me later :laugh:.

Actually, come to think of it, I think I bought a playset a year ago in anticipation of a SDT ban at some point. After work I'll dig through my cards and see if I have them, assuming they're there I'll have to thank past me for the foresight.

I'm pretty sure I don't want 3. They don't stack well in multiples, but 1-2 would probably be ok, they interact well with Courser, Tracker, Bob, Fetchlands, etc. The first cut is easy, it would be Tracker #4, a second cut is harder.

The problem with testing though is that I have very few opportunities to play Legacy right now. In the town I'm residing in for the summer there's no Legacy scene, barely anyone at FNM's even has a Legacy deck, and those that do are more of the heavily proxied turn 1 kill/fold to FoW variety like Spanish Inquisition, Oops All Spells, and Belcher.

[tescrin]

@Echelon / On MGuile
It's good; but each had their bonuses:
* Guile -> Fixes your T2, can make 1-landers keepable, costs no mana (though it's risky as if there's not a land in your top 4, you probably just lost.) Plays well with Bob.
* Library -> potential to cantrip or become CA. Pro/Con is that it's drawing, so it can interact with things (usually a con)
* Top -> Multiples of itself are easy to get rid of, it's hard to kill

Cons:
* Guile -> Abhorrent in multiples. Always CDA (unless someone targets it with an otherwise dead Decay)
* Library -> Bad in multiples, isn't good with Bob (since you have to plan a full turn ahead and can't shuffle)
* SDT -> Eats your mana





New Nyx Fit toy just spoiled:

http://media.wizards.com/2017/hou/en_sesUcKUkTI.png

One-sided Humility with a (pretty minor) bonus.

Academy Rector makes that ridiculous. T2 Rector, T3 "All your stuff sucks forever" + Siege Rhino lmao. My god.

[Echelon]

On Guile in multiples: first off, you can keep yourself from drawing multiples, so there's that. And having multiples means it's ok to blow one up w/ Deed. Anyways, just try them out for yourselves. I'm sure I'll hear it when you've given it a fair go :laugh:.

As for that new enchantment - it fucks over entire manabases AND legions of creatures. It's insane.

[lowpass]

Ah, yeah, I guess the upside isn't so minor. I was trying to think of notable non-mana activated abilities that weren't on creatures or planeswalkers, but somehow completely glossed over lands.

[zyren]

Could curse of misfortunes be viable with the addition of overwhelming splendor? curse of misfortunes => overwhelming splendor => curse of death's hold or curse of misfortunes => curse of death's hold => overwhelming splendor could be a powerful play. this increases the consistency of tutoring enchantments and could cut the need for evolutionary leap. Note that cruel reality is also a curse. It also bypasses graveyard hate which is a pretty big problem with nyx fit.

[Brael]

Could curse of misfortunes be viable with the addition of overwhelming splendor? curse of misfortunes => overwhelming splendor => curse of death's hold or curse of misfortunes => curse of death's hold => overwhelming splendor could be a powerful play. this increases the consistency of tutoring enchantments and could cut the need for evolutionary leap. Note that cruel reality is also a curse. It also bypasses graveyard hate which is a pretty big problem with nyx fit.

Why shoot for overkill? Overwhelming splendor basically reads "win the game".

[ShadWills]

You sacrifice individual card power, though. What you really want is creatures that provide reasonable value if they die, but are still good if your opponent doesn't care about a bear and you don't have Intent in hand. That means Strix, Stoneforge, Explorer (naturally). Unfortunately there aren't that many other actually good options beyond those.

This all the time. How awesome that we can class Explorer with Strix and Stoneforge? But really that's it's power. It's so good it makes me greedy for value creatures. I want Dark Confidant to be on this list but it's a different kind of creature. Bob can be very powerfull but is a more difficult card to play. Has anyone tried Borderland Explorer? I've been enjoying it in a NicFit reanimator list recently, and the opponent never uses it. Also it has Explorer in the name!

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Summoner's Pact
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Entomb

1 Unburial Rites
4 Animate Dead
4 Dance of the Dead
4 Commune with the Gods

4 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Savannah
4 Bayou
3 Swamp

1 Borderland Explorer
3 Griselbrand
1 Fierce Empath
1 Primeval Titan
1 Pelakka Wurm
1 Yavimaya Elder
1 Massacre Wurm

This feels really good. It looks awkward on paper but then you just draw entomb and dance of the dead with plenty of lands into a bunch of green sun's zeniths into PrimeTime into fatties. Wish I had room for removal but the plan is to go over the top instead. Cabal therapy/Entomb/Gitaxian probe with lots of Cabal Therapy flashback is a pretty good disruption suite. Commune with the Gods is good, although it feels weird. Sometimes it just whiffs. Then you think, 'Oh, I need more fatties and enchantments for that to work, then again I'm glad I didn't stall on all that crap- that was ok.' Then next time you pitch Griselbrand and find Animate Dead and think, 'It's Christmas every day.'

Also I agree that Mirri's Guile is good. I especially like it with other draw effects. Also I don't mind multiples or alongside Sylvan Library, especially with instant speed draw/shuffle effects- like Summoner's Pact and Gitaxian probe. And I think we can look to spells like Commune with the Gods, Gather the Pack,and Grizzly Salvage.

Torment of Hailfire is a cool card design, but I think it's difficult to pressure all three resources strongly enough to force a -bad- choice.

Overwhelming splendor looks... really good.

[zyren]

Why shoot for overkill? Overwhelming splendor basically reads "win the game".

Yes, Overwhelming splendor does pretty much read that, and my goal would be to get it out as fast and consistently as possible. Right now the deck has consistency issues and the new curse + rector + leap should hopefully increase consistency and be a viable alternative to getting around graveyard hate, which has become more prominent.

[Echelon]

Yes, Overwhelming splendor does pretty much read that, and my goal would be to get it out as fast and consistently as possible. Right now the deck has consistency issues and the new curse + rector + leap should hopefully increase consistency and be a viable alternative to getting around graveyard hate, which has become more prominent.

May I introduce to you Mirri's Guile and a pile of fetchlands..? Does wonders for your consistency problems. Proxy them, give them a go and I'll see you on the other side.

[Brael]

May I introduce to you Mirri's Guile and a pile of fetchlands..? Does wonders for your consistency problems. Proxy them, give them a go and I'll see you on the other side.

Turns out I don't have any. Regardless, I think 1-2 is the correct number. I don't doubt you when you say they're good, but even when they are good, they're still a second tier opening (mana ramp being better).

[Hmmm_Really?]

Any Xmage players here? Have you experienced the new Vet/Therapy stack bug? Do you just play through it or do you know of a workaround?

(I actually lost a because of it. Strangely, it was because my opponent didn't have enough mana to cast Brainstorm)

[studderingdave]

Looking to give Nic Fit a whirl. I am a Death and Taxes player that defected to Vintage a few years ago but I still want to support Legacy here and there. I ran my list past a few veteran players in my area and it seems alright, but I feel that I am poor against combo. current list:


Land (24)

1x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor
3x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Plains
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
2x Swamp
1x Taiga
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Wasteland
4x Windswept Heath

Planeswalker (1)

1x Nissa, Vital Force

Creature (18)

1x Eternal Witness
1x Glissa, the Traitor
1x Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1x Primeval Titan
1x Scavenging Ooze
3x Siege Rhino
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x The Gitrog Monster
1x Thragtusk
2x Tireless Tracker
1x Titania, Protector of Argoth
4x Veteran Explorer

Enchantment (3)

3x Pernicious Deed

Sorcery (9)

4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Vindicate

Instant (5)

3x Abrupt Decay
2x Path to Exile

Sideboard (15)

1x Choke
2x Faerie Macabre
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Golgari Charm
1x Reclamation Sage
3x Rest in Peace
2x Slaughter Games
3x Surgical Extraction

[Brael]

Looking to give Nic Fit a whirl. I am a Death and Taxes player that defected to Vintage a few years ago but I still want to support Legacy here and there. I ran my list past a few veteran players in my area and it seems alright, but I feel that I am poor against combo. current list:

Too much of a top end. If you want to be competitive against combo, you need to be playing cards at a similar curve to them. That means low mana interactive spells. Which is just a good idea in Legacy in general, especially since Nic Fit doesn't have FoW as a general catch all card. You need to play a lot of interaction. The best change I've managed to include to deal with combo is Crop Rotation with some utility lands. Other notable hits have been Lost Legacy, a playset of Deathrite Shaman, and Diabolic Edict.

Also, you definitely do not want Rest in Peace. It's quietly one of the best cards against us in the format (especially when you have such a high curve) because it shuts off Veteran Explorer triggers. It also shuts off DRS which is our secondary ramp, and in your case it also shuts off things like Titania, Gitrog, Scavenging Ooze, Eternal Witness, and Cabal Therapy. If you want a Rest in Peace effect you should look at Leyline of the Void since it's one sided, but be careful as Leyline is also fantastic against you.

[studderingdave]

would you suggest more discard effects in the board like thoughtseize or duress? i was thinking about crop rotation before i was going to post. thanks for the suggestions.

[Brael]

would you suggest more discard effects in the board like thoughtseize or duress? i was thinking about crop rotation before i was going to post. thanks for the suggestions.

I think hedging on discard can be ok, but to beat combo what you actually need is discard plus a clock. 1 or 2 extra discard spells can be justified. Many like Collective Brutality, but I actually like Tidehollow Sculler because it's both discard and a clock in one (and unlikely to die). Another good one is Strangleroot Geist believe it or not. Haste helps a lot because it gives combo less life to play with (important against ANT for example), and it leads into a reasonable Cabal Therapy opener, and probably one of the better anti combo openers.

Most run between 0 and 1 additional discard spells. If combo is heavy in your meta I would make it two. It's up to you to split between Sculler and Brutality. Brutality also comes in against Burn while Sculler also comes in against Eldrazi (given you have Glissa).

Crop Rotation however is very good. I don't know the right number to run, but I run 2 MB +1 SB and it has worked for me. Those numbers might need to go up. But it seriously expands your capabilities. manlands, equipment holders, graveyard hate, mana ramp, creature recursion, color fixing, beats Blood Moon, beats Wasteland, removal. The card literally does everything we want.

What Nic Fit lives and dies on though, is being able to play Magic when your mana ramp is disrupted, and being able to make a lot of 1 for 1 trades, and then pull ahead in CA. If you do those things, you'll win.

[studderingdave]

thanks for the help, i picked up a few cards based on your suggestion. i want to start grinding for EW.

[Echelon]

@studderingdave: I'd start w/ cutting Wastelands, Titania, Gitrog and Primeval Titan and instead run a bunch of actual land and some DRS. And Glissa should be a sideboard card (if even that).

As Brael said - lower the curve and let me add this: Run more CA/library manipulation. You have to be able to compete w/ blue decks in the consistency department and want to be able to bury them under cards in the lategame.

I know this deck looks like EDH on steroids, but it absolutely is not.

[Brael]

I didn't even notice the Wastelands, you definitely do not want those.

And yes, CA is king. The most successful lists in this thread have either been very combo oriented like Sneak, or had the ability to keep up with blue decks in cards.

I take the lower curve philosophy to a much greater extent than anyone else here, but I would suggest looking back over the last several pages. I've got a Rhino build in there that's a pretty good halfway point between big stuff, CA, and interaction.

[Navsi]

Taking this to a tournament tomorrow.

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
2 Phyrexian Tower

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Eternal Witness
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Collective Brutality
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Toxic Deluge

1 Kaya, Ghost Assassin
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 To The Slaughter
2 Lost Legacy
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Thoughtseize
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion

The deck's a bit light on card-draw options, but hoping to make up for it with higher card quality, and all the card advantage I do have is repeatable. Sword of Feast and Famine is the secondary equipment of choice because a) it has text against spell-based combo and b) SoFaI is awful against Leovold. Batterskull doesn't seem necessary when I have Umezawa's Jitte to help against Burn and Sword to beat on combo/control.

[Echelon]

I'll be competing too tomorrow. I'll be on the list I posted some pages back (without the Crop Rotations, mind you). I might change the lone Vindicate for a Toxic Deluge, but that's it.

Let's get some Junk Fit reports out!

[Brael]

Navsi/Echelon: Why no Crop Rotations? They really do put in a lot of work. They give you a lot of game against combo, they make your deck more explosive, and they're basically free slots since you're already using deck slots on what they provide making it an easy swap.

[Echelon]

Didn't get around to testing them, and I don't want any surprises in my list tomorrow.

[Brael]

Can anyone think of some good MB cards (preferably only in B/G, but I'll take any suggestions for now) that are solid against Elves? Working on a new GB build and Elves is the only deck in the DTB section that I don't feel confident against, in fact it's nearly unwinnable. Wondering if there's anything I'm missing that could hedge.

[Navsi]

Navsi/Echelon: Why no Crop Rotations? They really do put in a lot of work. They give you a lot of game against combo, they make your deck more explosive, and they're basically free slots since you're already using deck slots on what they provide making it an easy swap.

I have zero interest in playing Crop Rotations.

If they're going to be good against combo, I'd need maindeck hate lands like Karakas and Bojuka Bog. The mana base is already clunkier than I would like due to the third Forest (for Nissa) and I don't want to make it any worse. Duals and Basics aren't coming out, and dropping Fetchlands makes my Trackers, Nissa and Dryad Arbor worse. Lowering my colored mana counts doesn't seem worth it.

As far as combo hate goes I am already playing seven maindeck discard spells and a Sword of Feast and Famine to lock harder, with 2 more discard spells and 5 extraction effects in the sideboard. I also already have maindeck graveyard hate in Deathrite / Ooze.

If I'm cutting interaction for Rotations, my fair matchups take a hit. Dropping Brutality also makes combo worse.

If I'm cutting creatures, my Equipment gets significantly worse and I either lose some of my few card advantage options (for a card disadvantage spell, instead) or I run lower on finishers. Neither of these options are ones I find particularly acceptable.

If I'm cutting other finishers (walkers / equipment) my lategame and control matchups get significantly worse, and against any fair blue deck I'm in a lot more trouble since Rotation is pretty much completely dead in those matchups rather than a hard to answer threat.

So.. what do you think Rotation is even good against? It seems good solely for blowing out combo decks, but does so by making your manabase way way less good. Against blue decks you can never cast it without 2-for-1ing yourself, and nonblue fair decks all have Wasteland so you aren't getting much value out of it there either, so you're just giving your opponent 2-for-1s all over the place.

Frankly, it looks to me like Rotation is the sort of card that makes cantrips necessary, so you don't draw it when you want an actually good card. I'm playing a relatively small amount of card selection, so I need my pieces to trade well and/or be resilient creatures and threat that I'm happy to topdeck, rather than a combo-specific silver bullet that's probably worse than just playing a maindeck Thoughtseize.

-----


Re: G/B Elves hate: Toxic Deluge is probably your best maindeck option.

[Brael]

So.. what do you think Rotation is even good against? It seems good solely for blowing out combo decks, but does so by making your manabase way way less good. Against blue decks you can never cast it without 2-for-1ing yourself, and nonblue fair decks all have Wasteland so you aren't getting much value out of it there either, so you're just giving your opponent 2-for-1s all over the place.


It's good against everything. It gets creatures when you need them (Arbor/Treetop). It gets GY hate (Bog) when you need it. It gets mana acceleration (Tower) when you need it. It gives you card selection late game (Stronghold). It deals with Emrakul/Griselbrand (Karakas), it draws 2 cards with Tireless Tracker (fetch, get something), and it fights Wasteland since you can sac what they targeted.

On top of that, it doesn't take up any deck space because cards like Scavenging Ooze are easy swaps as long as you put a Bog in your manabase.

There is the issue of FoW, but even that isn't that bad. Depending on when and how you use it. It still trades 1:1 with FoW, so you come out even on cards if it's countered, but you also have Therapy to clear the way against FoW in the first place.

Crop Rotation is seriously good. My Legacy league I was playing at school last semester was won almost entirely on the back of that card (well, deck philosophy in general, but Crop Rotation was a big part of that). Ended up going 15-1, 13-1 in the swiss, 2-0 in the top 4, as a non blue deck (though that was pre SDT ban). It offers a level of consistency that you just don't normally see outside of the cantrip cabal.



Re: G/B Elves hate: Toxic Deluge is probably your best maindeck option.

Already playing one. Looking for a second card that's not horrible. Ideally in the 1-2 CMC range.

[sdematt]

Zealous Persecution. Pushes your stuff through and can board wipe Elves.

[Brael]

Zealous Persecution. Pushes your stuff through and can board wipe Elves.

I've thought about it, but it has the same issue as Golgari Charm. A -1/-1 just doesn't kill very much. Nettle Sentinel and DRS are 2 toughness, plus they can bounce a couple cards. In the end, those wipes will barely get you a 2-1. Though, Persecution is better on my side than Charm is.

[tescrin]

I've thought about it, but it has the same issue as Golgari Charm. A -1/-1 just doesn't kill very much. Nettle Sentinel and DRS are 2 toughness, plus they can bounce a couple cards. In the end, those wipes will barely get you a 2-1. Though, Persecution is better on my side than Charm is.

These are the absolute least important creatures in their deck though. They can't fog your dudes, they can't combo very well without additional pieces, and while DRS produces mana, he can be turned off by DRS, Needle, or other cards. It's also instant speed so you can git'em.

I do think Golgari is probably better in this deck since you can nuke your VE with it at the same time, but w/e

[Brael]

I do think Golgari is probably better in this deck since you can nuke your VE with it at the same time, but w/e

That's one of the issues though, you rarely want to pop a Vet against Elves.

[Echelon]

Zealous Persecution. Pushes your stuff through and can board wipe Elves.

He lives!

As for 1/2 mana maindeckable answers vs. Elves - if that was a thing, Elves! wouldn't be a deck. You could try running more discard, but that's about it.

[pettdan]

What Echelon says. Discard to prevent a quick win, Deluge for quick sweeping and then one of the Lilianas to keep pressure on them, preventing the comeback. If you are willing to splash then Gaddock stops Natural Order and Leovold stops Glimpse of Nature and Visionary+Symbiote, both GSZ-able. Engineered Plague helps too in the sideboard, so does Lost Legacy. ZP and Golgari Charm are of course relevant and good but imo not really strong. They are not answering Natural Order and can only hope to disrupt the opponent from Glimpsing off. Hmm this question comes up once a month it seems, maybe we should sum it up and make sure it's in the primer. Unless it already is. I'm going to assume one of the previous posters checked it. ;)

[Brael]

What Echelon says. Discard to prevent a quick win, Deluge for quick sweeping and then one of the Lilianas to keep pressure on them, preventing the comeback. If you are willing to splash then Gaddock stops Natural Order and Leovold stops Glimpse of Nature and Visionary+Symbiote, both GSZ-able. Engineered Plague helps too in the sideboard, so does Lost Legacy. ZP and Golgari Charm are of course relevant and good but imo not really strong. They are not answering Natural Order and can only hope to disrupt the opponent from Glimpsing off. Hmm this question comes up once a month it seems, maybe we should sum it up and make sure it's in the primer. Unless it already is. I'm going to assume one of the previous posters checked it. ;)

I'm looking for cards I can MB and have in G1, postboard I have a lot of cards. I'm thinking discard might be the way to go here. I'm strongly considering a Collective Brutality.

[ShadWills]

You definitely do not want Rest in Peace. It's quietly one of the best cards against us in the format (especially when you have such a high curve) because it shuts off Veteran Explorer triggers. It also shuts off DRS which is our secondary ramp, and in your case it also shuts off things like Titania, Gitrog, Scavenging Ooze, Eternal Witness, and Cabal Therapy. If you want a Rest in Peace effect you should look at Leyline of the Void since it's one sided, but be careful as Leyline is also fantastic against you.

This is the reason I'm going to reanimator fit. Rest in Peace is so good against us, it might as well be very good and try to fight through it. Meanwhile Crrrush evrrrything else! (deathrite does get better against us though)

About elves generally- I also play elves and let me echo that early spot removal, followed by a sweeper is good against elves. I only play 11 lands in my elves deck and removal on my first llanowar/deathrite/whatever can be very good- often at least a Time Walk. Pyroclasm (and therefore deluge to a less degree) is unbeatable by elves as far as I know. After that try to win, perhaps via Overwhelming Splendor. If your version of NicFit lacks a "win now" button, you probably need to keep some pressure on- liliana, or even Deed or whatever. At this point card advantage becomes important. Elves is both fast and resilient, but vulnerable to creature hate.

In regard to your list Brael vs Elves I agree that golgari charm is ok but not great. Probably not good enough unless you have other sweepers too. And as far as discard goes, I guess you might hit a Natural Order, but that is a card I'd rather topdeck (as Elves) and generally I don't think discard is very good vs elves. Certainly not as good as cheap removal. Collective brutality is probably fine, with the removal side better than the discard side.

[pettdan]

I'm looking for cards I can MB and have in G1, postboard I have a lot of cards. I'm thinking discard might be the way to go here. I'm strongly considering a Collective Brutality.

Yes, my comments actually were for the main [deck] (may have seemed odd) until the comment about Plague. Collective Brutality seems nice, with the discard-removal option it's relevant in most matchups and can turn otherwise dead cards into relevant effects. Strict discard is obviously very bad in the lategame that we strive for and CB gets around that. The price for standard staples is so disencouraging though...

[Brael]

Yes, my comments actually were for the main board (may have seemed odd) until the comment about Plague. Collective Brutality seems nice, with the discard-removal option it's relevant in most matchups and can turn otherwise dead cards into relevant effects. Strict discard is obviously very bad in the lategame that we strive for and CB gets around that. The price for standard staples is so disencouraging though...

Price isn't a factor, I already own a playset because I play them a bunch in Modern.

[Navsi]

I'm looking for cards I can MB and have in G1, postboard I have a lot of cards. I'm thinking discard might be the way to go here. I'm strongly considering a Collective Brutality.

Brutality is great. I ran 3 today and they were good in basically every matchup.

Went 3-3 overall by the way. Deck felt solid though. Thinking of adding a Scryb Ranger as a 63rd card, otherwise imo I'd keep the deck exactly as it was.

[Jain_Mor]

Brutality is great. I ran 3 today and they were good in basically every matchup.

Went 3-3 overall by the way. Deck felt solid though. Thinking of adding a Scryb Ranger as a 63rd card, otherwise imo I'd keep the deck exactly as it was.

Me and Navsi made an IRL Nic Fit connection today, which was great. I ended up winning it btw, I was on dead guy though, so not relevant to you guys. Though I can also attest to how good collective is, it really smooths your maindeck draws against different matchups.

[studderingdave]

big adjustments to the original design. No one had Legacy on them at the LGS (so we jammed Vintage) but I caight some more wisdom on my design. I cut most of the cute stuff, added some more disruption and removal.


Land (23)

1x Bayou
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Dryad Arbor
3x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Plains
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
2x Swamp
1x Taiga
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath

Enchantment (2)

2x Pernicious Deed

Creature (19)

1x Courser of Kruphix
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Eternal Witness
1x Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1x Primeval Titan
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Scavenging Ooze
3x Siege Rhino
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Thragtusk
2x Tireless Tracker
1x Titania, Protector of Argoth
4x Veteran Explorer

Sorcery (8)

4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith

Instant (7)

2x Abrupt Decay
1x Crop Rotation
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Path to Exile
1x Swords to Plowshares

Planeswalker (1)

1x Nissa, Vital Force

Sideboard (15)

1x Choke
2x Duress
2x Faerie Macabre
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Glissa, the Traitor
1x Golgari Charm
2x Lost Legacy
2x Slaughter Games
3x Surgical Extraction

looking at maybe adding Scullers and a KotR. How does Collective Brutality do in the JUNK lists?

[Echelon]

@studderingdave: Still missing some CA/library manipulation tools. It'll cost you games to variance, without fail. And it's still rather top-heavy. On a side note - switching from Slaughtergames to Lost Legacy would allow you to ditch the Taiga. More often than not it'll be the worlds' worst Forest.

On yesterday's outing - went 2-2, drop. Had a good time but 3-2 wasn't good enough for top 8 so decided to go home early and get some much needed groceries. I'll post a report tomorrow.

[Jain_Mor]

How does Collective Brutality do in the JUNK lists?

Check the two comments above yours. Both playing junk of some variety.

[mstephenson]

Top 8'd a local 24 man event yesterday losing in the quarters due to my deck not functioning 2 games in a row.

List

Instant: 8
4 Brainstorm
2 Force of will
2 Abrupt decay
Sorcery 16
4 Ponder
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Innocent blood
2 Green sun's Zenith
Enchantments: 2
2 Pernicious deed
Creatures: 12
2 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging ooze
1 Eternal Witness(Should just be the second leovold going forward)
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Thragtusk
Walkers: 3
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Nissa, Vital Force
Lands:
1 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs

Side:
1 Nissas, Vital Force
1 Tireless tracker
1 Painful Truths
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Malestrom Pulse
1 Fatal Push
2 Force of will
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Dismember
1 Echoing Truths
1 Golgari Charm
2 Invasive Surgery

Deck felt insane almost all day. The cantrips were excellent every time I drew them and gitaxian probe was amazing in every matchup were therapy was good. In the same vein was probe thoughtseize was great for setting up therapy as well. The removal distribution felt good even if sometimes innocent blood was awkward and I missed push. Scavenging ooze also beat a couple of opponents to death
Cards that underperformed:
Nissa, Vital force: She was hard to cast and felt a lot worse in multiples compared to other builds I have played. Considering dropping the main deck copy.
Eternal Witness: Every time she was a more expensive leovold as the only thing I ever wanted her to get was leovold, especially when green sunning.
Tireless tracker: It was just way harder to have lands to make her good when I had already shuffled the all away or just didnt have many left in the deck.

I really want to put a meren in somewhere and I think it will be over the MD Nissa for now and that really the only change(other than e-wit but that was mostly cause I only own 1 leovold atm).

Matchup were
Unexpected Miracles 1-1
Czech Pile 2-1(Super fun games)
BUG 3 drops 2-0
Grixis Control(no deathrites) 1-2
Infect 2-1
Made top 8 with a 3-1-1 record and then lost the the czech pile player from round 2 when my deck failed to draw reasonably.

[Echelon]

Report time! As I said, I went 2-2-drop. Ran the following 75:

Main:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Tireless Tracker
4 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Vizier of the Menagerie
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library

4 Path to Exile
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge

Sideboard:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Duress
3 Lost Legacy

Round 1, vs. Colourless Staxx (2-0).

Game 1: I mulligan to 6, keep a hand w/ 4 lands, an Eternal Witness and a Cabal Therapy. Scry a Rhino to the bottom. Opponent's on the play, starts with a Mutavault. I have no idea what I'm facing so I just fetch my first basic. His T2, he drops a Sphere of Resistance. I just drop a land and say go. T3, he drops another Sphere. T4 I PtE his Mutavault. On my T5 I drop a Witness to return a land. Opponent then drops a Mishra's Factory. T6, I attack into the Factory. He tries to pump it, I remind him it has summoning sickness and my opponent is stuck on 2 land. I on the other hand have reached 6 and drop Siege Rhino, followed up by Sigarda.

Sideboarding: None.

Game 2: I believe this game my opponent mulliganed to 6. I quickly establish a board position until he starts nuking the board with a Smokestack w/ 2 counters. He ends up killing his entire board, leaving me with a Plains. He bricks while I draw 3/4 lands in a row and go to town on him with a Siege Rhino.

Round 2, vs. Sneak & Show (1-2)

Game 1: He drops Griselbrand T2 and I'm unable to overcome it.

Sideboarding: +3 Lost Legacy, +3 Duress, +2 Surgical Extraction, +2 Golgari Charm, + 2 Pithing Needle. -2 Pernicious Deed, -1 Toxic Deluge, -3 Veteran Explorer, -1 Deathrite Shaman, -1 Vizier of the Menagerie, -1 Sigarda, Host of Herons, -1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth

Game 2: I start on Duress, taking away Impulse since that was the most powerful cantrip in his hand. T2, I Cabal Therapy him. In respons he Brainstorms. I pick the Ponder of which I'm sure he kept it and hit. I see a Griselbrand and an Emrakul. Cabal Therapy 2 takes Griselbrand. T3, I topdeck another Therapy and take away Emrakul. All my opponent has now is a hand with a bunch of land (and he was salty as fuck). I also drop Qasali Pridemage. At some point he's joined by a Siege Rhino. On my opponent's last turn, he tries to get tricksy by dropping a Sneak Attack. On his end step, I blow it up with Pridemage and fetch for Dryad Arbor. On my turn, I swing for exactsies (thank you, Arbor).

Game 3: My T1 and T2 are basically the same, but then I brick. My opponent gets Griselbrand out and follows it up w/ Sneak Attack into Emrakul for 22 damage.

Round 3, vs. Grixis Delver (1-2)

Game 1: He gets me the turn before I can stabilize. Funny thing is, he did block a Veteran Explorer when it came swinging.

Sideboarding: +3 Duress, +2 Lost Legacy. -1 Pernicious Deed, -2 Deathrite Shaman, -1 Tireless Tracker, -1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth

Game 2: Weirdest game ever. I PtE an early DRS and start hammering my opponent with 2 Veteran Explorer. He blind Therapies me, hitting 2 Rhinos (dammit, lol). He fails to find a creature for a million turns (even though he had 4 Brainstorm and multiple Ponders) and I make that even worse by Lost Legacy'ing his sure 4-off - Delver of Secrets. I drop some creatures, he kills them. He drops an Angler, I PtE it. He at some points has to Bolt an Explorer (yup), goes to 3, I topdeck Rhino and the trigger takes the game.

Game 3: Fun game. Lot of back and forthing, fighting for control. Just before we go to turns I resolve a Rhino to race his DRS and things are looking pretty good. On the 3rd extra turn, facing lethal from my next swing, he activates his DRS a final time and Bolts me in the face.

Round 4, vs. 4C Blade/SFM deck (2-0)

I don't think this guy was very familiar w/ Nic Fit.

Game 1: My opponent starts on a T1 Hierarch. I fear Infect and drop an Explorer. His T2, he drops DRS and I think he's on some weird BUG list. I drop Pridemage and send Explorer into the red zone. Before we go to combat, he Decays (I believe) my Pridemage. I keep my Explorer tapped, and ask him whether or not he wants to block it. He looks at me surprised and says "Yes, but your Pridemage is dead". I reply "So?". Still baffled, he decides to block it w/ his DRS. I say "Thank you", get my land and PtE his DRS. He drops a TNN, I drop a Rhino. On his turn he plays a SFM and gets Batterskull. I Therapy away his Batterskull and send Rhino into the red zone. He blocks it w/ TNN and SFM, killing my Rhino and his SFM. On his turn, he swings in for 4 w/ his TNN. I drop another Rhino and third one after that.

Sideboarding: +3 Lost Legacy, -1 Tireless Tracker, -2 Deathrite Shaman

Game 2: I have the stone cold nuts. I start off w/ Veteran Explorer into Phyrexian Tower, drop Courser of Kruphix. His T2 he drops SFM getting Jitte and on his T3 drops Leovold. I go Veteran Explorer -> Cabal Therapy, take his Jitte and spy Batterskull. Flashback Therapy, take that too. Proceed to drop Siege Rhino. After that I also drop Mirri's Guile and Vizier of the Menagerie. Sounds good, right? Well, on the next upkeep I got jack shit. On top were just a bunch of spells and no shuffle effects. Oh well, lol. I believe that somewhere my opponent also Forced a PtE on something. On my final swing (my board was now Courser, Siege Rhino, Vizier and some other stuff) he AD's Courser but, despite blocking something, still takes 8 for exactsies.

Seeing as 3-2 wouldn't be good enough to make T8, I dropped. Had I stayed, my round 5 opponent would have been another Staxx deck.

Thoughts:

The list felt good. Still not sold on Vizier, but I still don't want to cut it either. Saw Guile only once or twice the entire day, which was unfortunate. The fact that I still didn't really fall to variance was quite pleasing. I also managed to power through multiple games without any Veteran Explorer triggers, which was pretty damn awesome. Moving forward, Vizier might turn into Crocodile of the Crossing or Courser/Tracker/Witness #2 or even Guile #4. Funny, since it used to be the 6-drop slot.

Edit: @Navsi/mstephenson: Reports people, reports dammit! :laugh:

[Navsi]

Edit: @Navsi/mstephenson: Reports people, reports dammit! :laugh:

Sure, but it's not particularly interesting.

Round 1 vs BUG delver

Game 1: Swords, Deed, Decay into a Rhino and a Tracker.
Game 2: Pretty much the same again, but this time it's a Stoneforge with a SoFaF killing him.

Sideboard: +2 Toxic Deluge, +2 To The Slaughter // -4 Cabal Therapy

1-0

Round 2 vs. Monored Sneak/Breach/Moon

Game 1: I open with Forest - Zenith - Arbor. He makes a turn-1 Magus of the Moon. I Zenith up a Deathrite, kill his Magus with a Brutality and take his Through the Breach, seeing Emrakul + Griselbrand in hand. Two turns later he finds an extra mana source, Sneaks in Grisel, and his draw-7 finds him two Petals to drop Emrakul and Worldspine too.
Game 2: I Thoughtseize him turn two (after he makes Sandstone Needle + Petal) and see Moon, TTB, City of Traitors, Griselbrand, and something else. I take Moon, since I'm on Bayou + Arbor for mana right now and can't expect to get out from under it, and hope he bricks on killing me. He draws a Worldspine and puts it in, killing me with the tokens next turn.

Sideboard: +2 Thoughtseize, +2 Lost Legacy, +3 Surgical Extraction, +2 To The Slaughter, +1 Gaddock Teeg // -1 Sigarda, -1 Rhino, -1 Gideon, -1 Meren, -1 Jitte, -1 Nissa, -3 Brutality (not enough targets), -1 Scooze

1-1

Round 3 vs. Storm

Game 1: I therapy LED turn one, then zenith up an Deathrite rather than an Explorer since if I flashback and miss (he has a brainstorm) then I give him two lands and probably lose the game. Instead I cast a Brutality, flashback Therapy with Arbor, and make a SFM with a SoFaF. He doesn't manage to go off through discard every turn + active deathrite and dies.
Game 2: He passes and Brainstorms in response to my Thoughtseize, but can't hide enough goodstuff and I snag an Infernal Tutor. Neither of us does much on turn two, and then on 3 he goes for it with Ad Nauseam. He goes to 3 before stopping (he knows I have a Brutality in hand from a Probe, so can't really keep going) but he has no mana in pool and only a single petal as a mana source, so I surgical his Dark Rituals (which I just saw him draw two of off AdN) in response to his Petal, leaving him with no castable mana, so he cantrips and passes. I Zenith a Teeg. He goes to 1, cantrips a bit, and Chain of Vapors Teeg on my next turn, but can't do more than make six goblins with an Empty and dies to a topdecked Brutality.

Sideboard: +2 Thoughtseize, +2 Lost Legacy, +3 Surgical Extraction, +2 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 Gaddock Teeg // -1 Sigarda, -1 Rhino, -1 Gideon, -1 Meren, -1 Jitte, -1 Stoneforge, -2 Swords, -2 Decay (keeping Deed/Deluge in cast of Empty the Warrens).

2-1

Round 4 vs. Elves

Game 1: I Swords his Nettle Sentinel and Therapy away a Zenith. He makes a Quirion, Deathrite, Elvish Mystic and taps most of them + Cradle to hardcast a Craterhoof, putting me to 5 or so. We grind for a bit (I make an 8/8 Scavenging Ooze), I get back up to 10 life or so and find a Deed, but he manages to Zenith for a second Hoof and kill me the turn before I Deed his board away.
Game 2: He Thoughtseizes me, I make a Canonist. We durdle for a few turns and he topdecks Natural Order and makes Progenitus. I don't find Deluge and die.

Sideboard: +2 Thoughtseize, +2 Lost Legacy, +2 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 Gaddock Teeg, +2 Toxic Deluge // -1 Sigarda, -1 Rhino, -1 Gideon, -1 Meren, -1 QPM, -1 Nissa, -1 SoFaF, -2 Stoneforge

2-2

Round 5 vs. Stasis (!)

Game 1: He makes a Fevered Visions. I therapy away some countermagic, make and Explorer, take his Stasis and proceed to slam haymakers repeatedly. I have QPM (+ Meren) to kill his Energy Field and put him to 5 with a Tracker before finishing him off with Brutality + Rhino trigger.
Game 2: Basically more of the same - I finish the game with 9 Soldier tokens, and Elspeth Sun's Champion and Nissa ready to ult, Sigarda, Tracker, and a QPM. He taps all creatures down and makes Stasis, but I can kill it with QPM and swing for (very) lethal.

Turns out Nic Fit is not a deck you want to be playing Howling Mine against.

Sideboard: +2 Thoughtseize, +1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion, -2 Swords to Plowshares, -1 Toxic Deluge (didn't see any planeswalkers, To The Slaughter would probably replace Ooze/DRS if I did).

3-2

Round 6 vs. Czech Pile

Game 1: We open with a Strix vs. Explorer beatdown battle. Eventually we both slam some threats (me a Tracker iirc, him a TNN) and end low on cards on both sides when I crack a Deed. I know he has manaleak + fatal push in hand, end up therapying his mana leak and Zenithing Sigarda, which he can't answer and dies to.
Game 2: He makes a Deathrite and Cliques my Deluge away - my Deed gets forced. I am able to get a Stoneforge with a SoFaF but he has the Kolaghan's Command to blow me out and I lose in short order.
Game 3: We trade for a while - explorer/strix beats put us each to ~12 eventually, him holding up countermagic and me not wanting to throw a deed/deluge into it without ability to pay for leak/pierce. Eventually he manages to get rid of them both and resolve a Clique, which I kill with a Brutality. My last card in hand is Jitte for my explorer to stabilize, but his is Kolaghan's Command again (destroy Jitte, return Clique) and I draw three lands afterwards and die to Clique beatdown.

Sideboard: +2 Toxic Deluge, +2 To The Slaughter, +1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion, -4 Cabal Therapy, -1 Swords to Plowshares

3-3


Overall pretty happy with the deck. Results:

- Still beats Delver just fine.
- Moon is easier to deal with than it was in 4c Atraxa, but still not positive. I think the Big Red matchups depend heavily on the opponent's draws, though the discard spells really help. This is one of the awkward matchups where Brutality isn't quite good enough, which sucks, but it's great everywhere else so oh well.
- Seven discard spells maindeck makes Storm way better, and the sideboard helps a lot too. I feel pretty happy with that matchup in this build. Stoneforge / SoFaF helps a lot because it gives us recurring discard, allowing us to lock them lategame rather than discard their stuff and then hope they don't topdeck into a combo over the four turns it takes us to actually kill them.
- Elves isn't great, but then I never saw a Deluge in either game. I think with six sweepers post-side the matchup is manageable, and we also have a lot of discard and spot removal for them. Dealing with Progenitus is difficult, especially in a deck with dorks preventing TTS. I guess I do have four outs post-side (Elspeth and Deluge) and can name Natural Order on my Lost Legaies. I don't think there's much we can do to improve this matchup any further either.
- Blue midrange decks are still good. The games were reasonably close - one of the problems of the Stoneforge builds is that Kolaghan's Command is absolutely backbreaking for us. I could have kept in Therapy to clear the way (but czech pile isn't exactly easy to hit therapy against, and I dunno if it's worth the slots). Collective Brutality helps, once again, here.

The only change I would be making to the list going forward is adding a Scryb Ranger to the maindeck as a 63rd card. If I do, I might also add a Pride Sovereign in place of the second Tireless Tracker, just to test how good the cats turn out to be. Might just stay as Tracker though - it's got a much worse worst-case scenario, since if it dies to a removal spell before I untap with it it didn't do anything. Might be worth testing though - especially with Scryb Ranger. Ranger might be worth it on its own right now though, lots of blue x/1 creatures going around, and it holds equipment very well.

[mstephenson]

Edit: @Navsi/mstephenson: Reports people, reports dammit! :laugh:

Ugh effort, Ill get around to it today.

[mstephenson]

Throwing away my lifepad because it was full is making this a little bit harder now lol.

Alright so round 1 against miracles
Game 1:
The game was going fine I was doing the usual thing of out grinding my opponent was up four cards to 1. Turns out the last card he topdecked was JTMS and he then brainstormed and passed. I had cards that didnt do anything to JTMS or pressure. The next turn he drew and brainstormed again and then passed. I drew a probe and probed him and saw counter spell snap and swords. Game was super over.
-2 Veteran -2 Innocent blood.
+1 Nissa, VF +1 Painful Truths +1 Tireless tracker +1 Maelstrom pulse
Game 2:
He kept a medium seven and I probe cabal'd him turn 1 taking his brainstorm with strix flashback turn 2 and then eventually beat him to death with value creatures in turns.
0-0-1

Round 2:
Turns it I actually played BUG 3 drops round 2 not czech, what was round 3

I don't really remember much of what happened other than he played a bunch of spells that didnt matter like mana dorks and TNN and he never found a JTMS so the games weren't partially close.
-1 Scooze, -2 Force of Will, -2 Thoughtseize
+1 Nissa, VF +1 Painful Truths +1 Tireless tracker +1 Fatal Push +1 Dismemeber

1-0-1

So 2 of my friends got paired round 2 and decided they wanted to play against miracles so the ID round 2 and I got to play 1 laaaaaaame.

Round 3: Czech pile

Game 1:
There were a lot of cabal therapies cast. And the game revolved around therapying his cards that matter(Counterspells bolts(to protect my JTMS), K commands, ect) and then stuck a jace and ran away with the game.

-2 Innocent Blood, -1 Abrupt Decay, -2 Force of will
+1 Nissa, VF +1 Tireless Tracker +1 Painful Truths +1 Maelstorm pulse, +1 Fatal Push,

Game 2:
We both traded a lot of resources in the first 2 turns and then I saw his hand one turn and was in the clear for ptruths next turn, except his draw step was counterspell. Never recovered.

Game 3:
Basically game one again except jace is a lot harder to run away with because of blasts actually being able to interact. There was even point were I immediately sacced a deathrite shaman to cabal therapy because I didn't want to give him a target for Kommand At the end of the game my lifepad was well over half cards I had written down from discard spells.

2-0-1
Now I get to play the other friend the ID'd

Round 4: Grixis control
From what I can tell this matchup is a hell of a lot harder cause discard isnt great against him.

Games
These games kinda blurred together but basically the ones I lost were to an untimely jace or pyromancer plus therapies

-2 vet, -2 Decay, -2 force, -2 thoughtseize
+1 Nissa, VF +1 Deluge, +1 Dismember, +1 Golgari Charm, +1 Maelstrom pulse, +1 Tireless tracker, +1 Painful truths,

2-1-1

Round 5: Infect

Game 1:
Killed everything but had a slow clock and drew a couple of lands and he built up a lot of pump and killed me with the inkmoth.

-1 Thragtusk -1 Nissa, VF, -2 JTMS, -1 eterman witness, -1 GSZ
+1 Golgari charm, +2 Force of Will, +1 Fatal Push, +1 Echoing Truth, +1 Dismember

Game 2:
Killed everything discarded everything and beat him to death with a very large scooze he had to start chump blocking.

Game 3:
Murdered everything and stuck a deed that was very good at stomping him from playing elfs and heirachs. He eventually died to strix beats.

Also got to echoing truth a sylvan library one game and then therapy it.

Made top 8 at 5th and played against czech pile friend and in game 1 I drew 3 therapies 2 thoughtseizes 2 veterans and 2 forces as almost all of my action spells. Yeah I died to a pile of cards.
Game 2 I miseed my 3rd land drop 2 turns in a row and really fucked me as I was never able to catch up as I died with 2 nissa's VF in hand. Uugh.

Very rough report if you can have any specifics I can probably answer those better.

[Purple Blood]

Haven't had the time to play in any legacy tournaments at the shop lately so I've been relegated to kitchen table for the time being. With that in mind, I've been brewing jank for the last while. Specifically, different flavors of Nic Fit because if I'm not sacrificing Veteran Explorers to Cabal Therapy what am I really doing with my life? Here's a Jund build I was working on. Hoping to get some feedback. I guess you can call it Dragonmaster Fit?

4 Veteran Explorer
4 GSZ
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Primal Growth
4 Dragonmaster Outcast
4 Scute Mob
4 Tireless Tracker
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Fatal Push
3 Painful Truths
2 Sandwurm Convergence
2 Inferno Titan
1 Primeval Titan

20 Lands


I have full set of deeds because the people I'm playing with tend to run a lot of creature strategies so board wipes are a must. My basic strategy is to get to 6 lands (primal growth saccing veteran explorer is pretty funny for this) as soon as possible and turn on Scute Mobs and Dragonmasters within the first few turns. That is followed up by going over the top of most things with Sandwurm Convergence and Titans. Painful Truths and Tracker refills your hand.

Can you guys think of any card I'm missing that would further the playstyle?

[studderingdave]

I love reading about Junk Nic Fit. After testing I have decided to return to Death and Taxes. But I am maintaining my Nic Fit deck as well since there is very little overlap between the decks. thanks everyone for the insight.

[Leshrac82]

This is an update to my unusual 12post deck, or rather a slightly different version - and since i'm including a decent NicFit-package in this version, i think this fits better in this thread than in the 12post thread. Also because the deck plays more like a NicFit decks than a typical 12post deck most of the time, that was true before i added the Explorer + Therapy package and is certainly true now.

61 Cards Maindeck:

Lands (27):

4 Cloudpost
3 Glimmerpost
2 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
3 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains

Creatures (15):

1 Dryad Arbor
2 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Spells (19):

3 Mox Diamond
4 Crop Rotation
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
2 Toxic Deluge

Sideboard (15):

2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Obstinate Baloth
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Lingering Souls
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Collective Brutality


I could go over how i got to this list from my different lists without the NicFit package, but i'd rather explain this starting from the NicFit-8post deck some people tried to build a little more than a year ago.
I liked that idea and tried it, and experimented a little bit with it. But it had one problem i couldn't solve: There were not enough colored sources, at most maybe 10 or 11 green sources and even less black sources. The result were at least for me too many clunky draws, and there was no way to fix it - i needed all the colorless lands and i didn't want to include that many more lands either. However, the general idea to combine 12post with a more midrangy approach seemed fine. So i tried someting different with Mox Diamonds, but the NicFit-package had to go. That deck worked much better for me and i worked on it for a long time - but after the Top banning i had some problems finding a good list for the new metagame. Recently i have seen some NicFit lists with less than 4 Explorers, just 3 or even 2 in some cases. And Pernicious Deed (which is unplayable with Mox Diamond) doesn't seem that necessary either, Toxic Deluge is fine and was already in my deck. So i tried this idea again, i could make the room for 2 Explorers and 4 Therapy after cutting some stuff that wasn't essential. And 2 Explorers are probably enough for this list, i have only 5 basics anyway, so i never really want to crack more than 2 Explorers.
The results with that on xmage so far have been great, around 75% winrate (59-20 right now, and without some mistakes it could be higher) - even better than my results with my older build were at a time when Top was around and Miracles was a relevant deck. Older versions of this deck had around 65-70% winrate in the pre-ban-metagame, without NicFit-Engine but over a very large samplesize, and this version feels stronger than any other version i tried so far.

About the maindeck: After another 12post player suggested to play a 2nd Stage over the 4th Glimmerpost i'm trying that. Seems fine so far, it makes the Marit Lage plan a little more reliable and i haven't missed the 4th Glimmerpost yet. Otherwise, the only change i'm expecting in the near future is finding a slot for Ramunap Excavator (the new Crucible bear), i will at least try that out. I tested a decent number of games with all the GSZ silver bullets, don't think i would cut any of them, and i don't think i need anything else in this build (tried many different ideas in other versions). And Tracker is an important core card for the deck, i need the cardadvantage (especially to make up for the carddisadvantage with the Mox Diamonds).
Mox Diamond is very important:
1. It fixes the mana and brings me up to enough colored sources, 14 untapped green sources (and 11 black, 11 white sources). As i said, that was the main issue with other NicFit-Post decks i tried.
2. It helps to speed up the early game. That's especially important against combo decks (i think Mox Diamond is secretly the best card in the deck against combo decks), still important against aggressive decks and less important against slower more controlish deck. (I usually board out 1 Mox Diamond in slower matchups.)
3. It helps against land hate, meaning Wasteland locks and Blood Moon. Both can be problematic for 12post decks, less so with the NicFit Engine, but it still helps a lot.

About the sideboard: Some combohate is obviously necessary. Ethersworn and Surgical along with Brutality should do that in addition to the relevant maindeck cards. Most combo matchups are fine (in particular Storm and Reanimator are good matchups), among the more important combo decks only Omnisneak is very unfavorable (hard to fix that one, needs way too many sideboard or even maindeck slots to get close to 50/50, so i just don't try any more). Some removal against Delver decks is also important, Explosives and Brutality should do that (my Delver matchup is certainly worse than for some other NicFit decks, but much better than for other 12post decks, i think Grixis Delver is favorable).
Lingering Souls and Obstinate Baloth are recent additions to the sideboard: In my testgames without it, i beat pretty much every deck without Liliana, but lost almost every match against decks with Liliana. Both cards should help to solve that problem, that's the idea at least - needs more testing to know that for sure, but so far both cards seem fine and have other applications. (Baloth helps against Burn, which can be a tough matchup, and Lingering Souls give a completely unexpected angle of attack in many matchups, i don't think anybody expects that card out of my deck.)
In comparison to other 12post decks, i completely cut all copies of Krosan Grip. Those are usually there for Blood Moon and Chalice of the Void. This deck can usually beat Blood Moon, and Chalice isn't that important either (especially postboard i'm usually very low on 1-drops against Chalice decks). That has downsides against some fringe decks, but i think against Tier decks it's fine for this deck to play withou Krosan Grip (or Abrupt Decay), if i would want it Explosives can sometimes do the same job (and i still have the RecSage).

Overall the playstyle with this deck is probably closer to NicFit than to a typical 12-post deck, but the game plan changes with the matchup - sometimes (for example against Miracles) you try to play as close to a typical 12post deck as possible, sometimes you just play a fair grindy game, and sometimes this deck can look a bit like Turbo Depths. This deck kills a goldfish on average on Turn 5, with many Turn 4 kills and even some Turn 3 kills - most of the faster kills with Marit Lage, but a Turn 4 Emrakul is possible. That's slower than the average draw out of other combo decks, but can beat some of their draws even without disruption, and with some disruption is often fast enough.

Compared to other NicFit decks, i play much less removal, but the combo game plans make up for that - i tested different types of removal in different versions of this deck, but the proactive versions have always been better (in that regard, this is similar to other 12post decks).

[Echelon]

Haven't had the time to play in any legacy tournaments at the shop lately so I've been relegated to kitchen table for the time being. With that in mind, I've been brewing jank for the last while. Specifically, different flavors of Nic Fit because if I'm not sacrificing Veteran Explorers to Cabal Therapy what am I really doing with my life? Here's a Jund build I was working on. Hoping to get some feedback. I guess you can call it Dragonmaster Fit?

...List...

I have full set of deeds because the people I'm playing with tend to run a lot of creature strategies so board wipes are a must. My basic strategy is to get to 6 lands (primal growth saccing veteran explorer is pretty funny for this) as soon as possible and turn on Scute Mobs and Dragonmasters within the first few turns. That is followed up by going over the top of most things with Sandwurm Convergence and Titans. Painful Truths and Tracker refills your hand.

Can you guys think of any card I'm missing that would further the playstyle?

I don't think this board's what you're looking for. On the main page you can find the casual section near the bottom.


I love reading about Junk Nic Fit. After testing I have decided to return to Death and Taxes. But I am maintaining my Nic Fit deck as well since there is very little overlap between the decks. thanks everyone for the insight.

Good luck!

@Leshrac82: My first instinct is to yell "Moar Explorers", lol. And more removal. But you've only got 60 slots. Or, if you have plenty of colourless mana, MtG's best Siege Rhino - Thought-Knot Seer.

[TTX]

@Leshrac, would you consider a sole Sylvan Safekeeper? Seems good in the side-of course good with Titania. Good against opposing Karakas in a pinch.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Leshrac82]

@Leshrac82: My first instinct is to yell "Moar Explorers", lol. And more removal. But you've only got 60 slots. Or, if you have plenty of colourless mana, MtG's best Siege Rhino - Thought-Knot Seer.

There is just no room for more Explorers or more removal. I'd have to cut either Crop Rotations or some of my GSZ bullets for either. I didn't try more Explorers so far, but i had plenty of builds with more removal, Swords to Plowshares and Abrupt Decay or maindeck Engineered Explosives usually, also maindeck Collective Brutality or Warping Wail for more flexible cards. That makes the deck slightly better against Delver decks, but worse against everything else, and i'm pretty sure it's just not worth it.
I tried TKS in some very early and very different builds, it was underwhelming - too slow to matter against combo decks most of the time, and worse than just some more GSZ bullets against fair decks. I don't think this is what the deck wants. You want to play your anti-combo cards no later than Turn 2, and a Turn 2 TKS isn't that common with this deck. (And i think most combo decks are fine anyway, maindeck Gaddock Teeg helps a lot with that. TKS would help a bit against Omni, but to beat that deck i need much more than that.)


@Leshrac, would you consider a sole Sylvan Safekeeper? Seems good in the side-of course good with Titania. Good against opposing Karakas in a pinch.


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Haven't tried that one yet - you are not the first to suggest it, maybe i should really try it at some point. One problem with that idea: Karakas is only really relevant against Marit Lage, but against decks with Karakas i usually board out my Dark Depths, so postboard i don't really need protection for that.

[Brael]

Haven't had the time to play in any legacy tournaments at the shop lately so I've been relegated to kitchen table for the time being. With that in mind, I've been brewing jank for the last while. Specifically, different flavors of Nic Fit because if I'm not sacrificing Veteran Explorers to Cabal Therapy what am I really doing with my life? Here's a Jund build I was working on. Hoping to get some feedback. I guess you can call it Dragonmaster Fit?

It's close. I've mentally been brewing this for awhile as an alternative to white as my third color. If you check out my section in the primer I've got a build in there which is basically human fit, the key card though is Ranger of Eos. It's 4 mana, put a creature on the board, draw two more high threat creatures. It's absolutely fantastic. However, it's 4 mana which has been a hard sell for me in SE Fit. On the other hand, Dragonmaster Outcast is exactly the type of low strength creature I'm looking for, but it puts me in red. My solution? Imperial Recruiter. And from this point on it's pure theory because the price point is keeping me off of them.

Lets start with a list of creatures of interest that Imperial Recruiter gets us:
Veteran Explorer
Deathrite Shaman
Dragonmaster Outcast
Tireless Tracker
Endless One
Sylvan Ranger
Dark Confidant
Hangarback Walker
Walking Ballista
Braids, Cabal Minion
Courser of Kruphix
Oracle of Mul Daya
Hornet Queen
Deranged Hermit
Dryad Arbor
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Pestermite
Deciever Exarch
Eternal Witness
Siege-Gang Commander
Trygon Predator
Reclamation Sage

And I'm sure there's more I'm not thinking of right now.

Something interesting is that you can actually drop black and use blue and red sacrifice outlets (Crack the Earth, Perilous Research). But if you do, you'll also need counterspells.

I haven't figured much out past this part yet, but I like having Recruiter as a toolbox for game winning cards that also keep the curve low.

The Jund approach might beat any of the others, especially with the punishing engine thrown in. Jund is a great way to apply SE principals. Maybe I'll brew a list over the next couple days. Can't test it in paper though as long as Recruiters remain at $200 each. Well... unless I dip into my Underground Sea/FoW fund.

It will require some thinking, and take us back into Dark Petition territory. What can a Recruiter find, that he can also cast right away off of Tower mana? Deathrite Shaman, Dark Confidant, Walker, Ballista, and Arbor are the ones that come to mind for me.

[Brael]

Made a Jund SE list taking the Imperial Recruiter idea.

Land 23
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Phyrexian Tower

Creatures 18
1 Endless One
1 Walking Ballista
1 Hangarback Walker
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Dragonmaster Outcast
4 Dark Confidant
2 Imperial Recruiter
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Deranged Hermit

Spells 19
2 Punishing Fire
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Crop Rotation
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Mirri's Guile

Thoughts from the Jund players?

[Navsi]

Made a Jund SE list taking the Imperial Recruiter idea.

Land 23
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Phyrexian Tower

Creatures 18
1 Endless One
1 Walking Ballista
1 Hangarback Walker
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Dragonmaster Outcast
4 Dark Confidant
2 Imperial Recruiter
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Deranged Hermit

Spells 19
2 Punishing Fire
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Crop Rotation
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Mirri's Guile

Thoughts from the Jund players?

You really don't need that many Recruiter targets. After Explorer and Deathrite, you only need ~3 actual bullets to have targets for them, if you're on two copies. You may as well just run the best ones (imo Ballista for lategame/utility, Bob for card advantage, Hermit for board presence) and drop some of the extra stuff for cards that actually interact with the opponent. 2 Pfire / 2 Decay / 2 Edict / 1 Kommand is a pretty slim removal package and you'll probably be lacking there - IMO you want some Brutalities (helps all the bad matchups, good with pfire if you want to keep that in) and maybe some Lilianas (either flavor). Obviously sweepers are pretty terrible with all your small low-toughness creatures, but you probably still want some somewhere given that Elves and D&T are decks and Empty the Warrens is a card. Maybe something like Fiery Confluence that has utility even if you don't want to sweep the board?

5 basics is super low and worrying. 10 untapped black sources (excl tower) is way too low. Same for 10 red sources.

I think you're trying to do too many things with the land toolbox and the recruiter toolbox - jamming both in the same deck means you have a ton of silver bullets that are garbage to draw in the opening hand, in an already inconsistent deck. You'll get hands like Grove / Karakas / Stronghold / Endless One / PFire / Decay / Dragonmaster that just do stone cold nothing, and they'll probably come up a lot.

[Brael]

You really don't need that many Recruiter targets. After Explorer and Deathrite, you only need ~3 actual bullets to have targets for them, if you're on two copies. You may as well just run the best ones (imo Ballista for lategame/utility, Bob for card advantage, Hermit for board presence) and drop some of the extra stuff for cards that actually interact with the opponent. 2 Pfire / 2 Decay / 2 Edict / 1 Kommand is a pretty slim removal package and you'll probably be lacking there - IMO you want some Brutalities (helps all the bad matchups, good with pfire if you want to keep that in) and maybe some Lilianas (either flavor). Obviously sweepers are pretty terrible with all your small low-toughness creatures, but you probably still want some somewhere given that Elves and D&T are decks and Empty the Warrens is a card. Maybe something like Fiery Confluence that has utility even if you don't want to sweep the board?

5 basics is super low and worrying. 10 untapped black sources (excl tower) is way too low. Same for 10 red sources.

I think you're trying to do too many things with the land toolbox and the recruiter toolbox - jamming both in the same deck means you have a ton of silver bullets that are garbage to draw in the opening hand, in an already inconsistent deck. You'll get hands like Grove / Karakas / Stronghold / Endless One / PFire / Decay / Dragonmaster that just do stone cold nothing, and they'll probably come up a lot.

Deathrite, that's what I forgot. To fix the color issue, what will likely happen is that I cut the Punishing Fire engine.

[Purple Blood]

I don't think this board's what you're looking for. On the main page you can find the casual section near the bottom.

Good luck!

My bad. Not trying to pollute this thread with nonsense. I only posted here because there is a lot more traffic. Thanks!

[Brael]

My bad. Not trying to pollute this thread with nonsense. I only posted here because there is a lot more traffic. Thanks!

Don't worry about it, most of us try to make competitive lists though. Which isn't to say Jund can't be competitive.

[Brael]

You really don't need that many Recruiter targets. After Explorer and Deathrite, you only need ~3 actual bullets to have targets for them, if you're on two copies. You may as well just run the best ones (imo Ballista for lategame/utility, Bob for card advantage, Hermit for board presence) and drop some of the extra stuff for cards that actually interact with the opponent. 2 Pfire / 2 Decay / 2 Edict / 1 Kommand is a pretty slim removal package and you'll probably be lacking there - IMO you want some Brutalities (helps all the bad matchups, good with pfire if you want to keep that in) and maybe some Lilianas (either flavor). Obviously sweepers are pretty terrible with all your small low-toughness creatures, but you probably still want some somewhere given that Elves and D&T are decks and Empty the Warrens is a card. Maybe something like Fiery Confluence that has utility even if you don't want to sweep the board?

5 basics is super low and worrying. 10 untapped black sources (excl tower) is way too low. Same for 10 red sources.

I think you're trying to do too many things with the land toolbox and the recruiter toolbox - jamming both in the same deck means you have a ton of silver bullets that are garbage to draw in the opening hand, in an already inconsistent deck. You'll get hands like Grove / Karakas / Stronghold / Endless One / PFire / Decay / Dragonmaster that just do stone cold nothing, and they'll probably come up a lot.

Ok, not at work, and now I've got some tiem to kill. I think you're right about the recruiter targets. I based it in large part on my Ranger of Eos experiments. The key difference with them though, is that you're getting two cards so you're looking for synergy. With Recruiter you're only getting one card so power is more important.

Of my targets, I would like to discuss them:
The variable mana rate of Endless One is extremely useful, and it hits hard. It's a big beater that flips to Bob for cheap, and also a strong contender in a field of prison (not to uncommon in my area), since he casts through Chalice, Trinisphere, and Blood Moon. He's also a creature that is often times bigger than Gurmag Angler, and that offers up quite a bit of utility, but at the same time it can be cast at 2 mana if you need to stop something low to the ground. I think more people should try this card out. With Ranger of Eos I've often times used Sylvan Safekeeper to protect it, but that doesn't work with Recruiter.

Next is Hangarback Walker. It's less useful, but still good. I find I run either Endless One or Walker. I've tried Walker in the Trinket mage packages in the past too and it performed well. I think it fits best in a list with Intent though. I could see the cut.

Ballista is basically just removal. It's not good removal, but it works well enough.

I'm still thinking about Brutality. Playing it in multiples isn't really where I want to be.

I think the main mana issue is that Groves really screw the manabase, which is another reason to remove Punishing Fire.

Maybe something more like this
Land 23
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Phyrexian Tower

Creatures 18
1 Endless One
1 Walking Ballista
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dragonmaster Outcast
4 Dark Confidant
2 Imperial Recruiter
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Deranged Hermit

Spells 19
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Crop Rotation
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Mirri's Guile