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Arianrhod
01-16-2017, 12:01 AM
Sensei's Divining Top was just banned this morning (4/24/17). Please bear with us while we reinvent ourselves to not use the card. All of today, all of the below lists are historical and anecdotal, and should not be copy/pasted without examining and replacing cards. Thank you. Ari.

“You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche

Definition of Nic Fit: "A GBx hybrid ramp-control deck which strives to abuse the Veteran Explorer / Cabal Therapy interaction."

Table of Contents:
I. Introductions
II. (Some) Card Selections
IIIA. Historical Notes
IIIB. Naming Conventions
IV. Cabal Therapy Guide
V. The Primary Variants
VI. The Second Variants
VII. The Tertiary Variants
VIII. Coverage Matches

I. Introductions:

Welcome to the Nic Fit community here on Source!

You should play this deck if you like:
-) Your opponents wailing and gnashing their teeth while you unleash cards that they never want to play against upon them
-) A unique hybrid midrange ramp-control style of play that is only really found in us
-) An archetype with a lot of undiscovered potential and space for individuality and brewing (2016 brought no fewer than 5 sub-archetypes to the fold, several of which had always existed but were yet undiscovered)
-) You're coming to Legacy from Standard or Modern. This isn't a budget deck (and can be hilariously anti-budget in some cases), but a lot of its optimal choices are things that you may already have from newer formats or have been recently reprinted (Deed, Zenith, etc).

You shouldn't play this deck if:
-) You are harshly critical on what's playable / "real" and not -- Nic Fit can surprise you! Grinder mentality is not welcome here. That said, don't be an idiot and assume that your favorite 10-mana edh artifact is viable.
-) You're unwilling to put a lot of time into learning to play this deck. And I mean, a -lot-.

Yup. Those are really the only reasons not to play this deck. Within its deep annals, there is really something for everyone. There are combo variants, hard control variants, Stoneforge variants....you name it, we've got it. And, we're expanding our variants all the time. Come contribute!

It's been generally agreed upon amongst the long-time Nic Fit pilots that you can reasonably expect to sink a year of your life into this deck before you will be able to reliably top 8 events. This number can fluctuate based on your playtime (every weekend + during the week vs once a month) and also based on your experience with 'similar' decks in other formats. It's important to keep in mind, though, that Nic Fit is a very, very challenging archetype to play. You need to sequence your plays several turns in advance, while still being flexible enough to respond to both your own deck and your opponents' decks changing your plans. You need to learn how to use Cabal Therapy effectively, which involves a massive amount of format knowledge and the ability to pay attention to every little detail and shred of information that is offered to you.

It's very easy to become discouraged in yourself and in the deck after a few months of not putting up results. You just have to stick with it -- and we're here to help!

My name is Kevin "Arianrhod" McKee, and I've been playing Nic Fit since early summer 2011. I've put up a lot of pretty reasonable results (somewhere north of three thousand dollars in winnings at this point, I believe, although not from any GP-level events) with a couple different versions of the deck, and I'm here to offer opinions and advice to all.

Now, with the introductions out of the way, let's talk about the deck itself!

II. (Some) Card Selections:

Things We Do Run and Why:

* Pernicious Deed

It has been theorized in the past that you can run Deedless. It's a bad idea. Depending on the situation, your opponent will oftentimes get the benefit from your Explorers (if they get any at all) before you will. Being able to untap and reset the board while still holding your threats in hand, or, ideally, leaving them in play, is pretty huge.

Dropping Deeds / running 1 copy in the past. My sincere recommendation would be: don't.

This has changed somewhat since the introduction of Toxic Deluge. Some versions can get away with running more Deluges and fewer Deeds. This is a debatable point and depends on the specific version that you are playing. I personally will bias more towards Deed, but there are people who have gone deep on Deluges and been rewarded for it, so I wanted to mention it as a possible consideration.

* Green Sun's Zenith

The only times that we don't run at least 3 of this card is when there's either some number of Birthing Pods present in the list, or when most of the creatures are nongreen. It's basically the most powerful creature tutoring option currently available. It also acts as Explorers 5-8, and connects most of our card advantage together. One of the reasons to play the deck.

* Eternal Witness

The green Snapcaster. Before Return to Ravnica, we would commonly run 2-3 copies of this card. Unfortunately, Deathrite Shaman has arrived and is the fun police. She's still good enough that you should almost always run a singleton. Another problem with running multiple Eternal Witnesses these days is that despite the power and popularity of Miracles, legacy has become a much faster format overall than it was several years ago. While powerful, Eternal Witness is slow.

* Sensei's Divining Top

The gold standard for non-blue card filtration and quality. Doesn't die to our Deeds, and we can use it as many times per turn as we have shuffles (which can be a lot). Most versions run 3 copies, although blue versions usually shave to 1-2 due to the addition of Jace and Brainstorm.

Although I do not agree with the idea of such, we need to be prepared for the possible event of a Top banning (thanks Miracles). Nic Fit is fairly well situated to survive without Top, although it would be very hurtful blow for sure. Oath of Nissa and Night's Whisper are the two most likely replacements -- both are notably weaker than Top, but will fulfill the same role.

* Phyrexian Tower

This unique land leads to some of Nic Fit's most broken opening sequences, with its crazy synergy with Veteran Explorer. In 2011-2012, Rector versions used to run 2 copies of this land, due to the added focus on sacrifice outlets. Now, (Starfield of) Nyx Fit is picking up Rector's mantle, and typically runs up to 3 copies. Every other version only runs a 1-of, however -- with some versions opting not to run it at all to improve that mana stability at the cost of explosive hands. Tower+Vet leads to 5 mana on turn 2, which enables a wide variety of broken sequences depending on the specific version.

* Volrath's Stronghold

Volrath's Stronghold is typically only run alongside both Phyrexian Tower and Primeval Titan, which generates an engine that Nic Fit players affectionately refer to as "the Two Towers." The Two Towers is a powerful engine for grinding that is also one of our best ways to fight Miracles. However, it usually requires running Primeval Titan to be "worth" it, which limits the amount of play Volrath's sees a fair bit.

* "Combat" Planeswalkers

This category includes planeswalkers which make tokens or buff creatures. Combat planeswalkers tend to be very good at beating opposing planeswalkers (consider Elspeth, Knight-Errant & Sun's Champion; Sorin, Lord of Innistrad; Garruk Relentless; Gideon, Ally of Zendikar; Nissa, Vital Force). One of Nic Fit's weaknesses tends to be to opposing planeswalkers because Pernicious Deed does not kill those like it does everything else. Combat planeswalkers can help shore this up by contributing board presence or sudden damage steroids to kill opposing walkers.

* Deathrite Shaman

Deathrite has varied in number since inception, but is typically played at 0-2. Generally, the more consistent and grindy your deck, the less you need this card. Faster versions with a strong combo (like Sneak) benefit from the extra acceleration and frequently run two copies. One or two copies are also common across the various Atraxa builds, which benefit from the rainbow mana production.

* Tireless Tracker

Tracker is run as a 1-2 of in most builds. Ideally you want to draw him as opposed to Zenith for him, but there will certainly be times where he can just take over a game state and tutoring for him is okay.

* Meren of Clan Nel Toth

Some people are opposed to Meren, others favor her. I personally love Meren, and since I'm writing the primer, I get to put her in this section :D Just note that there are strong arguments against her, usually based on the power level of other, more blunt-force cards. Meren is like Yawgmoth's Will in vintage: you need to sculpt the game state around her. If you engineer a game to where she's your last bomb in the sequence, she will absolutely take over an entire game. If you run her out early or play the deck more aggressively, you typically won't see as good of results with her. I play much more controlling, though, and typically sequence in a way that allows her to capitalize on the game.

* Atraxa and Leovold

Both of these cards are new to the archetype, but have proven themselves capable contenders so far. Generally seen together, both legendary creatures amplify the power of Green Sun's Zenith in unique ways, with Leovold being an unusually powerful anti-combo piece that is still strong against fair decks.

* Siege Rhino

I'm personally much lower on Rhino than many other people are, however it is impossible to deny Rhino's power as a 1-of or 2-of. Many run him as a 3- or even a full 4-of, which I tend to believe pushes the deck too far down a midrange aggro path that the archetype is ill-suited to execute effectively. Again, though, I highly recommend a 1- or 2-of in basically any white-splash build.

* Abrupt Decay

We generally only run a pair of Decays, sometimes with a third in the board. While this may surprise some, it is because we want a diverse removal suite as opposed to a powerful one, and being able to run a backup removal spell that affects our coverage in good ways is worth more than only jamming the set of Decays with room for one or maybe two other options. Examples include Path to Exile or Swords to Plowshares (contingent largely upon number of Rhinos played) for exile removal or Punishing Fire for planeswalker control. Maelstrom Pulse and Vindicate both show up every once in a while as well, for a hyper flexible 1-of.

* Thragtusk

Thragtusk is basically always included as a 1-of in my lists, and has historically been a 2-of at times. The card generates too much value for us to ignore, and becomes especially toxic to our opponents when combined with one of our recursion engines (Meren or Volrath's/Phyrexian; Nightmare if you happen to still be playing it).

These are just some of the possible card options -- I wanted to provide a brief overview of the most commonly played Nic Fit cards to provide some context on the type of card that you should be looking for. Generally it has to be a very individually strong card that also generates a lot of value or has other intrinsic synergies with the rest of the deck.

Things We Don't Run and Why:

* Dryad Arbor

-) Dies to your own Pernicious Deeds, Deluges, etc.
-) Usually better in all situations to sandbag the Zenith and Zenith@1 for Explorer or Deathrite instead of @0 for Arbor.
-) Occupies a spell slot, and even then, it will sometimes screw your mana development with its very presence.
-) Natural Order is not currently used in Nic Fit -- this would be the only scenario in which I would support Arbor.

Addendum: while this has changed somewhat with the introduction of Meren of Clan Nel Toth, Arbor is still an unpopular choice, though it does appear from time to time. I personally still view Arbor as unplayable, but am less severe when criticizing others about it.

* Liliana of the Veil

-) Notable Exception: Punishing Nic Fit, although PFire has declined greatly as a version.
-) Most of the problem with Liliana is that our cards are generally much better than our opponents' on a 1-for-1 scale. Bleeding our hand is usually something that is effective against us, and therefore it doesn't make any sense to do it to ourselves.
-) Liliana isn't actually that effective against the decks that we want her to be effective against. Our clock is too slow to kill combo while Liliana keeps their hand low, she's not Show and Tellable, and she does nothing to Sneak Attack, little to Painter, even less to Elves, etc.

* Maindeck Thoughtseizes & Hymn to Tourachs

-) Too many dead cards in the late game.
-) Doesn't actually kill the opponent.
-) The 2 lifeloss can actually matter in a lot of matchups, because Nic Fit tends to use its life as a resource pretty aggressively.

* Random EDH / Cube Garbage

-) If you're running a card in Nic Fit, you need to have a specific reason for doing so. Don't think that just because Nic Fit "looks like a cube draft" that means that you can jam anything that you want.
-) Nic Fit variants are very carefully constructed and each card present in them is there for a reason.
-) This is even more true as of this updated writing (1/6/17). Nic Fit has a tremendously large playable card pool -- several orders of magnitude larger than any other legacy deck. As a result, it has taken Nic Fit a long time being the butt of a lot of jokes before it's begun to crystallize into truly competitive decks. Now, this has finally begun to happen, which makes card selection even more important. We've winnowed down to the best of the best, and a card needs to be very specific or very powerful to justify its inclusion. Nissa, Vital Force comes immediately to mind as something that's rapidly joined the ranks of the elite.

* Sylvan Library

-) See also Thoughtseize on why life loss is bad. Even in matchups where you think your life total is safe, like Miracles, it does end up mattering, especially if they're on a heavy Mentor build or are running multiple Entreats.
-) Dies to your Deeds and you can't save it like you can with Top.
-) Usually better options exist. I generally play Painful Truths before Sylvan Library, although sometimes I split Top with Library in a 2-1.
-) Note that Library's stock is poised to go up for Nic Fit if Top ever gets banned due to Miracles abuse.

* Gaddock Teeg

While some players favor Teeg, even in the maindeck, I personally find him more problematic than he's worth. He shuts off our Zeniths and our planeswalkers, which in my opinion are two of the main reasons to run the deck. I understand that generally you're bringing him out against decks that are hurt worse than we are -- but sometimes you draw your 1-ofs instead of tutor them, and it can make draws very awkward -- especially for planeswalker-heavy or non-creature heavy builds like I favor.

* Most "utility" planeswalkers. Liliana of the Veil is a good example of a utility planeswalker: one which does not generate board advantage. A good rule of thumb is that if a planeswalker generates a token as a plus, or an especially strong token as a minus, it's probably worth considering. Otherwise, it is very hard for a planeswalker to break through to being played in Nic Fit. Kaya, Ghost Assassin is a noteworthy exception to this rule.

IIIA. Historical Notes:

Tao created the Source thread for Nic Fit in late May of 2011, and the thread quickly attracted the attention of deckbuilders due to the interaction formed between Veteran Explorer and Cabal Therapy. Speaking personally, I had discovered the interaction separately around the same time due to the printing of Veteran Explorer in one of the Commander box-sets. Previously, I had no idea the card existed, but I quickly thought of Cabal Therapy and came to Source to investigate if anyone else had thought of the same thing. I was pleasantly surprised to discover the fledgling thread, and have been working on the deck ever since.

The deck remained underground for several months, despite putting up sufficient numbers at local tournaments to keep our interest up. It probably helped that the deck is so much fun to play, as well. Fast forward to July 31st, 2011 -- the Starcity Games Open in Pittsburgh, PA. I was able to get a car around to play in the Legacy Open, and while none of us did that well, my deck attracted the eye of Caleb Durward, who was playing not far from me. We talked about the deck briefly, and he said that he'd seen people playing it on Workstation online, but that he hadn't seen it at an actual event before (paraphrased due to nonexact recollection). Although I ended up at something dismal like 4-3-1, apparently some interest had been sparked.

At the SCG Invitational in Charlotte, in December 2011, Nic Fit got to steal some limelight as Caleb Durward piloted a straight G/B version of the deck to an impressive top 8 finish, and snagged a Deck Tech on the way. Over the next few months, the deck periodically bounced in and out of the Decks to Beat forum on the Source, which signifies a tier one deck. Despite these periodic jumps, the deck has remained a strong tier 1.5/tier 2 contender for much of its life, largely due to a complete lack of true masters and professional players that actually run the deck, as Caleb has continued to experiment with other archetypes after playing Nic Fit to decent finishes several more times.

Since then, the archetype has fragmented into various sub-versions, all with a unique style and personality all their own. Each version can have wildly different matchups, although most share at least a few core similarities. Most of the high-placing finishes for the deck will be categorized with their attending version in section V. While we have yet to win any notable, large-scale tournaments, we have appeared in many such top 8s, and our pilots have pocketed dozens of dual lands and other high-level prizes. The overall archetype's best/most prestigious finish so far is a 10th place by BUG Pod at GP Paris, in February 2014.

IIIB. Naming Conventions:

Our deck's name is so weird and off the beaten path that I feel I must address it in its own section. We don't actually know entirely where Nic Fit came from, before anyone asks. A lot of people assume that it came from a typo....that it was originally supposed to be "Nice Fit." Whether it did or not, however, is questionable, and probably impossible to prove. Caleb Durward noted that he believes the name to refer to the interaction between Explorer and Therapy in his Deck Tech.

Whatever it may have once signified, Nic Fit has come to be synonymous with Therapy/Explorer, although some casters in particular still try to call the deck Explorer Rock, or even more simply, "that Veteran Explorer deck."

Each subset of the deck tends to go by either its shard/wedge name or the name of the specific plan or backup engine that it is abusing. Scapewish comes from Scapeshift + Burning Wish, Punishing Fit as per Punishing Fire, Sneaky Fit from Sneak Attack, Nyx Fit from Starfield of Nyx, etc. At the same time Junk Planeswalker Control (or Abzan Planeswalker Control) is also a perfectly viable name, as is 4c Atraxa: it's succinct and tells you exactly what it's doing at a glance.

IV. Cabal Therapy Guide:

Proper Cabal Therapy names are one of the most important aspects of playing the deck. While the following guide is far from perfect, it can be used as a general purpose training tool for when you're just learning the deck and just starting with Therapy. If you have no idea what to do, this is for you. As you get more experienced and more advanced with the deck, some of these calls will change based on a wide variety of factors...but this is a good starting guide.

* Miracles

Play: Sensei's Divining Top
Draw: Counterbalance

Top is the most important card in their deck, and on the play it's the obvious name. On the draw, try to snag their Counterbalance to shut down their virtual card advantage and keep your early developmental plays clear.

* Shardless:

Play: Brainstorm
Draw: Shardless Agent or hold until t2-3 for Jace, or hold until you want to resolve something and name Force
Postboard Play: Hymn to Tourach
Postboard Draw: Hymn to Tourach

On the draw, Therapy isn't that great in this matchup. Frankly, Therapy isn't that good in general, but especially on the draw. Hymn to Tourach is their best card vs you, but they usually only have 1 or at most 2 copies maindeck, so it's generally not worth naming. On turn 2 (if they have DRS) or turn 3 it can be correct to name Jace, but even still they only usually have 1-2 copies of him now as well. It can be wisest to just hold it until you need to resolve something and then slam it on Force of Will. Postboard, adjust to Hymn to Tourach, because they'll be bringing in extra copies of it and actively looking for it in their opening hand.

Generally speaking, you want to sideboard out Cabal Therapy in this matchup, but if you happen to have to leave some in, those are your best names.

* Stoneblade/Deathblade

Play: Brainstorm
Draw: Hold.

If you're on the play, try to disrupt a shaky keep by taking Brainstorm, which also makes your future Therapies better. If you're on the draw, you want to hold your Therapy so that you can either use it after they Stoneforge for an equipment, or on turn 3 naming Jace TMS.

* RUG Delver

Play: Stifle
Draw: Stifle

It's our number one enemy in this matchup. If they don't have it, congrats, you have information and the go-ahead for Explorer to ramp past their tempo. Also keep in mind that they give you information on their hand from Delver. Write it down.

* BUG Delver

Play: Stifle
Draw: Stifle

Same as RUG here, really. You can make a strong argument for calling Hymn to Tourach, but Stifle is usually more devastating if they happen to run it.

* TES and ANT

Play: Dark Ritual
Draw: Dark Ritual

Ideally you want to name mana on the call, and then business on the flashback. Doesn't always work that way though...be prepared to be flexible here. Dark Ritual gets the nod as the initial name because most of their 'broken hands' involve sequences containing Dark Ritual, and it's probably the ritual that they are most likely to keep in their opening hand, vs something like LED that needs a lot of pieces to go with it and is fairly fragile.

* Elves

Play: Natural Order
Draw: Natural Order

Natural Order is their pathway to their fastest kill, and it's the first priority to name as a result. Note that there are debates for Glimpse of Nature -- especially if they have a fast Nettle Sentinel or Birchlore.

* Reanimator

Play: Reanimate
Draw: Exhume

Reanimate is the 'faster' reanimation spell, but it does hurt them badly. Exhume is arguably more dangerous because it doesn't cost them life, meaning they get 7 more cards to defend their Griselbrand with. Worst case, don't forget that you can play around Exhume by Therapying yourself to discard Venser, Frost Titan, Rector, or any other creature that you want to get in play.

* Sneak/Show

Play: Show and Tell
Draw: Griselbrand

Show and Tell is their fastest kill. Likewise, Griselbrand is probably the more dangerous thing for them to Sneak Attack because they can draw a million cards to hit Petal + Emrakul and just kill you in one shot.

* Death and Taxes

Play: Vial
Draw: Phyrexian Revoker

Deed is our best card here. We know and they know it, and Revoker is their answer to it. Shut it down. Vial is still better to name on the play, though, because sometimes you can catch them keeping the 1-lander+Vial hand, and punishing that when possible is good. Vial also lets them break timing with Flickerwisp. Vial has become even more critical as time has passed, due to the presence of Recruiter of the Guard (which combos with Flickerwisp to give Death and Taxes an actual lategame now). Note that sandbagging Therapy activations can be very strong here, as you can wait for them to fetch an equipment with Stoneforge or tutor a Flickerwisp with Recruiter.

* Burn

Play: Lightning Bolt
Draw: Fireblast (or Price of Progress, depending on your draw)

If you have a lot of nonbasics in your draw, name Price -- otherwise, name Fireblast. On the play, call for Lightning Bolt because it's their best burn spell and usually the one they're happiest to have in-hand. That being said, it's a royal crap shoot to hit anything vs burn. All of their cards are basically the same, just with different names.

* Infect

Play: Invigorate
Draw: Invigorate

Invigorate is their most powerful pump spell by a mile. If you have a hand that's heavy in spot removal, it can be correct to target Vines of the Vastwood instead.

* Eldrazi

Play: Thought-Knot Seer
Draw: Thought-Knot Seer

Reality Smasher is the only other monster we care about here, and generally TKS is more important because it comes down much earlier and takes our best card.

* Grixis Delver

Play: Brainstorm
Draw: Young Pyromancer

Grixis isn't playing Stifle anymore, but if you have inside information and you know the pilot is on an old list, audible that to Stifle for sure. Young Pyro + Cabal Therapy is their most powerful interaction against us, and it's what we need to target on the draw. On the play, stripping their Brainstorm can make the difference since most of their cards are individually junky and need to be tied together, plus it can slow the flipping of Delver and is a blue card for Force in a deck which runs a lot of nonblue cards.

* Lands

Play: Exploration
Draw: Crop Rotation

Gamble is another powerful name, but you need to evaluate the board state and see if they would still have it in their hand, or if they'd have fired it off already.

* Nic Fit Mirror

Play: Sensei's Divining Top
Draw: Green Sun's Zenith

Top is the most powerful card in the mirror, but Zenith is a card that is very frequently something we want in our opening hand. Both are fine names on play or draw, but I typically favor the above.

* Unknown

Play: Brainstorm

If you're in the dark and you're on the play, name Brainstorm. It's the most played card across the most archetypes, and blue players are notoriously greedy with their opening keeps -- they will frequently keep loose hands because they have a Brainstorm, and stripping that from them can sometimes cost them the game on the spot.

Arianrhod
01-16-2017, 12:01 AM
V. The Primary Variants:

Sneaky Fit

Arianrhod's List (1/6/17)

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Inferno Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Punishing Fire
2 Abrupt Decay

4 Sneak Attack
3 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Nissa, Vital Force

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills

sb::
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pyroclasm
2 Slaughter Games
1 Tireless Tracker
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 To the Slaughter

Finishes:
Kevin McKee - 4th - Mythic Games 2k - 7/23/16
Sam Higgins - Top 8 - Gaming for Gains - 11/19/16

Summary:
Sneaky Fit was created in mid 2016 after, I'll admit it, a really, really sweet cube deck that involved Meren of Clan Nel Toth and Sneak Attack. It got me thinking if there was the possibility for a Sneak Attack fueled Nic Fit, so I started tinkering. Before long, I knew I had something. Since, I've done very well with the deck, and others have enjoyed success as well. I believe this to be the best version of the deck currently: it is perfectly what Nic Fit is to me. It has a strong, linear combo plan that is capable of securing wins against unsuspecting opponents and random nonsense, while also having a very powerful control element and a reasonable beatdown plan. If you're in the market for a true hybrid deck, I can't recommend this list highly enough. Just note that it's a hard deck to play and has a lot of flexibility and tricks that make up percentage where you wouldn't expect to find it.

Strengths:
-) Linear, fast combo kill that can easily steal games against combo decks when backed by good Therapies.
-) Strong control element with lots of quality removal. Punishing Fire gives the deck an edge against opposing planeswalkers, as does Sneak Attack itself.
-) Stage III planning. The deck can -- and will -- hardcast Emrakul given enough time. Volrath's Stronghold + Phyrexian Tower + Meren allows for an awful lot of recursion in the lategame. Killing someone with PFire is also a possible angle of attack as well.
-) Jund colors allow for very strong sideboard options. Pyroclasm gives the deck one of the best Elves matchups across all versions.
-) Excellent Miracles matchup. While not impossible to lose by any stretch, Sneak boasts a very positive win rate vs Miracles.

Weaknesses:
-) Sometimes fast combo happens. This is true for most Nic Fits, but Sneak has fewer lines of defense than blue or white versions.
-) Burn can be more problematic than for most other versions. Sneak only really has room for the one Thragtusk for lifegain, and the Grove engine means we sometimes have higher nonbasic count draws, which can punish us with Price of Progress.

Matchups:

Miracles:

Most of this matchup revolves around making trade-offs to resolve Sneak Attack. If it means allowing them to resolve a Jace, so be it. At the point at which we have a Sneak Attack in play, we can usually close the game because we end up demanding they have StP / Terminus every turn until they die. Volrath's Stronghold + Phyrexian Tower is also insanely strong here, and Primeval Titan is one of your best cards as it both ties together that engine while also fueling your Punishing Groves, which forms an engine that Miracles really doesn't appreciate.

Postboard, you gain Slaughters and Surgicals to disrupt them in various ways, along with Carpets to ramp harder and To the Slaughters to kill off their Jaces, which makes the matchup even more in our favor.

Shardless:

The plan here is much the same as it is in other Nic Fits: get out as many Vets as possible, accelerate way past them, and do something stupid to keep up with their card advantage. Punishing Fire helps a lot here as well, as long as you keep it safe from Deathrite.

BGx:

Focus on landing your card advantage, and the win will come with time. It's very hard for these decks to pressure us sufficiently through our removal before we kill them, and even our value plan is very hard to keep up with.

Storm:

Storm for Sneaky Fit basically comes down to disrupting them until you go off -- it plays a lot like a combo mirror, because you need to play to the combo half of your deck in order to win. Your goal is to Therapy them enough and slow the game down enough to assemble Sneak Attack + monster. Emrakul is ideal, but Inferno Titan is oddly good here as well due to the large burst of damage, which can either flat kill them if they've been aggressively Probing, or at least put Ad Nauseum out of their reach. Postboard we bring in all of the combo hate and take out all of our control or beatdown elements: we basically become a combo deck ourselves after sideboarding.

Death and Taxes:

Death and Taxes is fairly simple -- we have a bucket of removal, both spot and sweep, and a strong clock. If they Revoke Deed, we Sneak them. If they Revoke Sneak, we blow up the world. Remember to step through combat with Sneak so that they can't Karakas you out, and watch out for Vial+Flickerwisp.

Eldrazi:

Meren wins this matchup more than any other, but generally the thought process is that you just need to live long enough to assemble Sneak+Emrakul. Eldrazi rarely has more than 6 permanents in play, which allows Big Momma to clean up after her children very effectively. Zenith is one of our best cards here, since it allows us to get Vet out through Chalice of the Void, and Eldrazi doesn't really have a clean way of disposing of Vet -- Warping Wail is the only one, and the number of Wails each list runs varies, plus some pilots don't board them in. To the Slaughter can help clean up Smashers postboard.

BUG Atraxa

Arianrhod's List (1/6/17)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
2 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Dragonlord Dromoka

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay

1 Nissa, Vital Force

3 Pernicious Deed

1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Mana Confluence
3 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains

sb::
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Thoughtseize
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 To the Slaughter
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Fatal Push

Finishes:
Philip Bergeman - 3rd - Mythic Games 2k - 3/5/16
Philip Bergeman - 6th - Mythic Games 2k - 4/17/16

Summary:
This deck is basically the revised version of Ultimate Fit -- a 5-color deck that was designed to feature the best parts of every Nic Fit. Sideboarding into Slaughter Games isn't really good enough to justify splashing for in the current metagame, but the rest of the concept is still valid: BUG has a strong shell with lots of card advantage and value plays, but then doesn't have the necessary power to close the game. White, on the other hand, has power in abundance, so splashing white for wincons helps BUG out. The goal of this deck is to be an updated form of The Rock: super solid and flexible against any opponent, but not necessarily super strong against any one particular deck. BUG, which generates infinite value, has historically struggled with having enough power to actually close out games. The white splash gives the deck that extra boost of power needed to close out games quicker. Sigarda is possibly too greedy in this list, and could be another Nissa, Vital Force.

Strengths:
-) BUG shell offers consistency and value, while white splash adds power.
-) Runs Brainstorm.
-) Strong Zenith options main and postboard allow for a variety of choices vs aggro, control, and combo.
-) Powerful defensive options with Baleful Strix, Atraxa, and Jitte.

Weaknesses:
-) Manabase is occasionally troublesome, especially against recurring Wastelands.
-) Lots of close matchups can be very skill-intensive and pilot draining over a long day. Requires a good amount of mental stamina to play in a 5+ round event, for sure.
-) Can still lack a bit of power against particularly removal-heavy opponents, especially those with Karakas in their deck (UWR decks come to mind).

Matchups:

Junk Atraxa

Arianrhod's List (1/6/17)
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
1 Siege Rhino
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Dragonlord Dromoka

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

1 Garruk Relentless
1 Kaya, Ghost Assassin
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion

3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay

3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Mana Confluence
1 Phyrexian Tower

sb::
2 Painful Truths
1 Celestial Purge
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Blessed Alliance
2 Fatal Push
2 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
2 Ethersworn Canonist

Summary:
This deck is an example of a Junk Control shell splashing for Leovold and Atraxa. I made day 2 at 7-1 at GP Columbus with something similar, and view it as the other half of what Rector used to be -- a heavy-hitting, bomb-dense ramp-control deck with hard to answer threats in the form of planeswalkers. The Zenith package compliments the planeswalkers and provides another angle of attack, and it's all tied together by a quality removal suite and a flexible sideboard.

Strengths:
-) Bomby, fun to play, and capable of stealing wins through asking the wrong question for your opponent's answer.
-) Flexible sideboard that can be tuned to beat almost anything, with the grind well under control for game one.
-) Lots of planeswalkers allow you to ignore most traditional removal, while the creature complement punishes opponents who ignore the field.

Weaknesses:
-) Glacial clock can make winning games in a timely manner challenging. Strong mechanic skills are necessary for this deck.
-) Hard to tune it to beat everything, even if it can beat anything. This makes knowing your metagame paramount, as well as knowing the decklist well enough to know that you can get away with changing.

Matchups:

Rhinos

Mitchell Stephenson's List (1/6/17)
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Eternal Witness
4 Siege Rhino
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Vindicate

3 Path to Exile
3 Abrupt Decay

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Kaya, Ghost Assassin
2 Nissa, Vital Force

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

sb::
3 Thoughtseize
3 Lost Legacy
2 Surgical Extraction
1 To the Slaughter
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Painful Truths
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion

Finishes:
Davide Galli - 6th - Roe Volciano Olympus #1 - 11/15/15
Daniel Sharpy - 6th - AzMagicPlayers 2016 Gilbert City - 1/9/16
Michael Znidar - 6th - Win a Dual Open 17 Tuebingen - 3/20/16
Carey Ng - 8th - ChannelFireball Game Center 3k - 3/27/16
Sean Griffith - 6th - SCG Classic Baltimore - 4/10/16
Shafer Hanson - 7th - SCG Classic Milwaukee - 5/1/16
Mitchell Stephensen - 11th - SCG Classic Knoxville - 11/20/16

Summary:
Ever since Siege Rhino was spoiled, everyone in the Nic Fit community knew that it would be relevant. While the numbers of Rhinos in lists were initially low, it was quickly realized from standard that simply chaining Rhino into Rhino into Rhino was oftentimes enough to win games, which resulted in today's 3x and 4x Rhino lists. Despite the popularity of Rhino, it has struggled a bit to put up the numbers that everyone expected of it. Most of this, I believe, is that including 3-4 Rhinos in a deck pushes the deck to be more of a midrange aggro deck, which is a role that, in my opinion, Nic Fit is ill suited to adopt. Regardless, heavy Rhino builds continue to be popular, and do put up finishes -- even if they are perhaps less frequent than advocates of Lord Rhino would wish.

Strengths:
-) Tons of reach to back up occasionally very aggressive starts.
-) Focused game plan without lots of random bullets to drag you down.
-) Quality removal suite, capable of killing or exiling a wide variety of permanents.

Weaknesses:
-) Little flexibility: the deck is frequently forced into an aggressive position, which can make games where you want to be the control role more challenging.
-) Dependant on a creature to win, which can make a deck like Miracles challenging.

Matchups:

As written by Echelon:

Miracles:
40/60 at best. Lost Legacy does a lot of work out of the sideboard. Planeswalkers are your best bet for a kill condition.

Shardless:
Very good MU, about 70/30. They don't have a quick clock and don't mess with your stuff too much. Find creatures with CMC > 3 to blank their ADs.

BGx:
Grindfest which you're well equiped to handle. 50/50 or better.

Storm:
G1 you're shit out of luck. G2/3 get to be about 50/50, or rather 60/40 for G2 and 40/60 for G3. The bulk of your sideboard should be focused on this. Board out Rhinos, Sigarda, creature spotremoval and any other expensive stuff to accomodate the SB. For CT name Infernal Tutor vs. ANT, vs. TES your best bet is Dark Ritual.

D&T:
50/50 MU. Their biggest threat is Batterskull. Get rid of that and you're golden. Pernicious Deed is a star here, and so is Sigarda.

Eldrazi:
No experience so far, someone else needs to fill that in.

SE Fit

Brael's Junk List (1/7/17)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor

1 Endless One
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Dark Confidant
2 Monastery Mentor
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay

1 Pernicious Deed

4 Sensei's Divining Top

sb::
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Carpet of Flowers
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Shriekmaw
1 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Pernicious Deed

Probable changes with Aether Revolt are Knight of the Reliquary over Monastery Mentor (or possibly the new 3/2 for 3 guy), Hope of Ghirapur over Sylvan Safekeeper, and a Nissa over Sigarda.

Summary:
SE Fit is the name given to Systems Engineering Fit, a specific sub-archetype that was originally developed as a thought experiment: if you took the Nic Fit concept and applied systems engineering mathematics to it, what would the math suggest as a deck? It turned out that the result was close enough to reality to be worth exploring, and SE Fit was developed. With a number of solid finishes in local events and online leagues, SE Fit is a strong approach to a more mathematical way of looking at the deck.

Strengths:
-) Consistency is SE Fit's biggest single draw. Packed with card advantage and removal, SE Fit is capable of keeping up with nearly anything in cards, including Shardless BUG.
-) A good mix of power and flexibility.

Weaknesses:
-) Very, very creature oriented, which can result in the deck walking into similar problems as Maverick used to, especially against decks like Miracles.

Matchups:

Miracles:
Slightly favored. Very long, very grindy. They're the faster deck in the match, so be prepared to win game 1. You're favored, so with normal and even fast playing speed, Miracles is really playing to draw in game 2. Cavern is big here if you get it, because they can't really remove it and it makes a joke out of the Counter/Top lock. They use mana better than you, so be careful about accelerating with Vets. Postboard they're favored but only slightly, even without a timer you should be able to win 2 out of 3. Watch out for Venser locks because it trumps Cavern.

Shardless:
Very favored. They'll almost certainly pull ahead in the early game, but as long as you keep Goyfs under control you should be able to catch up and eventually take the lead. Don't be afraid if they pull ahead early, generally as long as they cast 3 Ancestral Visions or less you'll win. If they get all 4 you'll probably lose.

BG/x:
Very favored. It's basically the same as Shardless. They have more removal with Punishing Fire, but less actual CA. They'll likely pull ahead early with discard, but there's enough CA to catch up. Ideally you're both top decking and you pull ahead with SDT.

Storm:
Near autolose. Hope for a fizzle or a poor hand. We don't generally have enough interaction to stop them. The gameplan here is disruption plus a clock.

D&T:
Very favored. Watch out for 3 mana Thalia. Otherwise, they don't really interact on any axis you care about. Mana denial can be a pain, but as long as you avoid that with some Vet triggers and fetching basics things usually work out. Remember that you need an extra green source for your deck to function against them, since they'll tap down one of them.

Eldrazi:
Slightly favored. White Eldrazi will ruin your day with Thalia/Displacer. Colorless Eldrazi isn't much of a threat. Cavern is great at messing with an early disruption plan like Chalice. Trade aggressively, don't be afraid to 2 for 1 yourself or chump block. Your #1 priority is to keep their board clear, if you can do that you'll eventually pull ahead in CA and win the game. Use your best cards first so TKS doesn't get a chance to take them.

Scapewish

Nicola Guidi's List (1st place at Ovino Spring 2016, 4/24/16):
1 Eternal Witness
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Primeval Titan
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Wood Elves
4 Veteran Explorer

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire

2 Scapeshift
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Burning Wish

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Stomping Ground
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3 Forest
4 Badlands
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Taiga

sb::
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Damnation
2 Duress
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Scapeshift
3 Slaughter Games
2 Surgical Extraction

Finishes:
Kevin McKee - 2nd - Mythic Games - 7/21/12
Kevin McKee - 4th - Jupiter Games - 8/11/12
Eric Warns - 7th - SCG Open Minneapolis - 9/2/12
Luigi Lescarini - 4th BBC #1 Roma 9 - 9/9/12
Louis Soloman - 4th - Jupiter Games - 11/3/12
Juan Miguel Carrascosa - 1st - Mishra's Factory Open - 11/17/12
Sam Castrucci - 12th - SCG Open Baltimore - 12/2/12
Kevin McKee - 4th - Jupiter Games - 12/15/12
Kevin McKee - 13th - SCG Open Columbus - 1/6/13
Kevin McKee - 7th - Mythic Games - 1/12/13
Evan Flynn - 5th - Mythic Games - 1/12/13
Dario Moreno - 6th - 1 LML 2013 - 1/12/13
Eugenio Arano - 3rd - Cerberus Open 3 - 1/20/13
Kaarle Tukia - 3rd - GPT Strasbourg / Kuukkacon - 3/2/13
Evan Flynn - 8th - Mythic Games - 3/9/13
Roberto Geada - 5th - GPT Strasbourg / 3 LML Madrid - 3/16/13
Kevin McKee - 8th - Mythic Games - 4/13/13
Ludovico Pagliughi - 4th - MLL#12 Milano - 6/9/13
Sam Higgins - 8th - Jupiter Games - 6/22/13
Pablo Montoya - 6th - 6 LML 2013 - 6/29/13
Pagliughi Ludovico - 6th - MLL#1 Piacenza - 9/22/13
Kevin McKee - 5th - Mythic Games - 11/9/13
Gianluca Barbati - 2nd - GBLL Tappa 3 - 11/17/13
Ludovico Pagliughi - 5th - Nebraska's War / Viareggio - 12/7/13
Kevin McKee - 10th - Tales of Tales of Adventure - 12/7/13
Manuel Torres - 7th - Legacy Open IV / Cantrabria - 12/14/13
Adrian Perez - 6th - GPT Paris / Barcelona - 1/11/14
Romain Van Der Daelen - 4th - GPT Paris / Paris - 1/25/14
Giacomo Befani - 6th - T1.5 T#8 / Pisa - 3/16/14
David Rice - 8th - Tales of Adventure 40 Duals - 3/30/14
Juan Miguel Carrascosa - 4th - 7 LML 2014 - 9/7/14
Lorenzo Tarocchi - 2nd - T1.5T#1 - Scandicci - 9/28/14
Ludovico Pagliughi - 4th - Milano MLL#2 - 10/19/14
Iago Rodriguez - 2nd - V Ferrol Cidade do Mar - 11/8/14
Eugenio Guarnaschelli - 4th - Milano MLL2016A#3 - 11/8/15
Ludovico Pagliughi - 5th - Top European Series Milan Legacy Main Event - 2/13/16
Jordi Vidal - 9th - LCL 2016 #2 Ingenio - 2/20/16
Nicola Guidi - 1st - OvinoSpring Milano Legacy Main Event - 4/24/16
Dan Mortensen - 6th - Mox Boarding House 1K June - 6/18/16
Ludovico Pagliughi - 8th - MLL#10 2016 - 6/26/16
Carlos Roca Guardo - 9th - Impact Returns - 7/23/16

Summary:
Scapewish is the archetype with perhaps the highest pedigree amongst Nic Fits. In addition to the above major finishes (events with over 32 players), it has a large host of smaller event finishes which I opted to not include. The original seed idea came from a pair of small European event finishes from Summer 2012 merging the Nic Fit core with a Scapeshift aesthetic. These lists were very nascent, using multiple copies of Primeval Titan, Foratog, and some other choices which in today's world seem bizarre. I took this core idea and revised the list, refocusing it a bit -- this led me to a string of finishes over the next 6 months, which attracted a lot of other players to the archetype. While Scapewish has fallen off in popularity a bit recently, it's still very alive and worth considering moving forward.

Scapewish originally functioned as a midrange beatdown deck, presenting powerful creature threats like Huntmaster, Thragtusk, and Stormbreath Dragon. However, these creatures, while respectable and certainly capable of winning the game on their own, are primarily smoke and mirrors. The creature plan serves to mask the true looming threat: a combo kill with Scapeshift searching up Valakuts and mountains. Here's how the Scapeshift kill works:

-) Scapeshift (resolves) sacrificing 7 lands, fetches Valakut + 6 mountains. Valakut sees all 6 mountains entering play at the same time, which means each mountain counts as the "6th mountain" which will trigger Valakut. This deals 18 damage.

-) Scapeshift (resolves) sacrificing 8 lands, fetches 2 Valakut + 6 mountains. This will deal 36 damage.

-) Scapeshift (resolves) sacrificing 8 lands, fetches Valakut + 7 mountains. This is how you beat onboard Wasteland. Add a mountain for each untapped Wasteland.

Coupled with the Burning Wishes, Scapewish plays a total of 7 effective copies of Scapeshift, not counting any that get discarded or countered, which turns on Eternal Witness + 4 Zeniths as further 'effective copies'. The Scapeshift kill is very redundant -- given enough time, it WILL happen. This means that many games end up being race scenarios where your opponent may not even realize that you're racing.

The Burning Wishes can do a lot more than just fetch Scapeshift, of course. They also present a great deal of utility, enabling the pilot to fetch additional discard, sweepers, spot removal and the powerful anti-combo disruption of Slaughter Games. Innocent Blood, while also removal, enables you to Wish for a sacrifice outlet to off a struggling Explorer. Burning Wish can gain further utility postboard, as you can sideboard out a Green Sun's Zenith for grindy matchups to increase your midgame threat density even further.

Unfortunately, one of the main problems that Scapewish has had moving forward is a lack of power creep being placed on Jund colored monsters. This has led to the remaining successful lists moving more towards combo/control, as opposed to midrange/combo. Beyond the ramp core and a couple of utility creatures, Scapewish barely runs threats outside of the combo at this point, opting instead for more card advantage and spot removal.

Strengths:
-) A strong, linear plan which is good against random decks and redundant enough to be very hard to stop
-) Some of the better anti-combo sideboard options Nic Fit has to offer
-) A solid plan B which is sometimes good enough to get there on its own
-) Can steal game 1 vs combo with discard + a fast Scapeshift

Weaknesses:
-) Fairly unstable manabase that can be easily attacked early in the game, /especially/ if you're on the newer versions that include Punishing/Groves
-) A complete lack of lategame power -- after turn 10, this deck becomes pretty unfavored against current decks
-) Scapewish has moved into a purely midgame role: it is weak in both the early game developmental stage and also in the late game. That being said, it is still incredibly strong during those middle turns, say turns 5-8.

Matchups:

Note: this section is anecdotal. I haven't played this version in close to three years at this point, and as such my opinions about the current lines of play are basically meaningless.

Miracles:

Cointoss game one, slightly favored game 2-3. Some games you'll get out underneath them, drain their resources with Thragtusks and Stormbreaths, and then wombo them from nowhere. Some games you'll get turn 3 Entreated, they'll Force your Deed, and you'll die. Postboard you gain Slaughter Games, Decays, and Red Elemental Blasts -- all of which are superb in this matchup. You also board in a lot of the Burning Wish targets for the Wishes themselves, since the Wishes can be Hydroblasted and are easily Counterbalanced.

How you win:
-) Slaughter their Jaces and park a Deed in play. Without their Jaces, it's much harder for them to countertop Scapeshift, which taxes their resources heavily. Deed stops Entreat.
-) Slaughter their Entreats. If game one took a long time, consider going after Entreat before Jace, because Entreat is a typically faster wincon.
-) Slaughter their Force of Wills. If you have a lot of ramp / a Scapeshfit and they don't have CB/Top online, it can sometimes be correct to just rush the combo.
-) Slaughter their Terminuses and go dudebro beatdown. Without Terminus, Stormbreath Dragon is very hard for Miracles to effectively shut down. Without Terminus in their deck, they also cannot CB/Top Zenith@5 or Primeval Titan, both of which can be relevant if you're on the dude plan.

How you lose:
-) Early, unanswered CB/Top (turn 2 assembled) locks you out of your early game development.
-) Counterspells + Snapcaster + Clique tempos you out of the game.
-) Fast Jace starts fatesealing immediately while they ensure that they can protect it.
-) Fast Entreat + they have a counterspell for your Deed.
-) Long, grindy 10+ turn game in which they bury you in cards and/or assemble Clique/Venser/Karakas.

Delver (RUG, BUG, UWR):

All of these matchups play out roughly the same, so I'll group them together, noting specific differences as I come to them. Scapewish is generally favored vs all three, however all three are perfectly capable of stealing games out from under you. In general your dude plan is less effective here, although Thragtusk in particular is a beating for all versions of Delver. Pernicious Deed is the best card in your deck; Stifle is your opponent's best. Veteran is pure value here, and necessary to help you escape their conditional, soft countermagic.

How you win:
-) Thragtusk.
-) Even better, double Thragtusk.
-) Pernicious Deed + a beefy body to stabilize the board.
-) A midgame Scapeshift when they're out of resources.

How you lose:
-) The Delver pilot correctly identifies the important of Sakura-Tribe Elder and Wood Elves. They're usually good about stopping Explorers, but sometimes decide that Sakura-Tribe isn't worth Dazing or Wood Elves isn't worth Stifling. They are.
-) Double Delver + Wasteland + Stifle + Daze + Force hands. We've all been there. It's as good vs us as it is vs any other deck in the history of the game.
-) BUG Delver Hymn to Tourachs you clean out of the game and then makes a Tombstalker.
-) UWR Delver assembles TNN+equip and you don't have an answer / your answer gets countered.
-) RUG Delver gets you low early and then goes triple Lightning Bolt.

Shardless BUG:

This matchup is really strange and feels very draw-dependent. I've had games where it feels like the matchup is a bye...going both ways. They play a lot of planeswalkers, which we're typically ill-equipped to fight adequately, and Thragtusk in particular is pretty questionable in the matchup. We usually end up playing more to our combo side than our midrange side here, because if we play like a midrange deck, we lose pretty badly. By contrast, they generally only have 3-4 Force of Wills to actually stop us from killing them with Scapeshift.

How you win:
-) Stall until you can Scapeshift safely (care of Wastelands). This usually involves casting / Zenithing for as many Explorers as possible as quickly as possible.
-) Pernicious Deed is pretty good here as well, but you NEED to have a Thrag or Stormbreath to follow it up or they'll just rebuild. Deed not killing their planeswalkers is particularly bad here.

How you lose:
-) Hymn to Tourach happens.
-) They clock you down before you can really do anything. This usually involves multiple Tar Pits and either discard or a Force of Will for Deed.
-) Turn 2 Liliana, when backed up appropriately, can be very bad.
-) They resolve multiple Ancestrals, which allows them to rebuild right past your Deeds.
-) Meddling Mage can be a threat, although you should generally be able to answer it with a backup sweeper.

Elves:

This is a poor matchup for us, with Elves generally favored in all stages. Symbiote can save their elves from sweepers, and they're fairly redundant to discard since they can just topdeck another threat pretty easily. They also get value from the first Explorer, which can turbocharge them depending on their draws. All you can really try to do is disrupt them as much as possible as often as possible. Don't be afraid to sweep even if you'll only get 2-3 elves. Keep it as clear as you can and hope that you kill them before they kill you.

How you win:
-) Multiple board wipes into Huntmaster. Huntmaster's flips can devastate Elves if you run them out of resources.
-) Discard + 1-2 sweepers into a fast Scapeshift can steal some games.
-) Slaughter Games on Craterhoof can be pretty good, but keep in mind that Slaughter Games doesn't actually deal with any resolved threats on board.

How you lose:
-) They goldfish you while you draw noninteractive cards.
-) You sweep them, but they Glimpse off afterward.
-) They Thoughtseize the crap out of you and then goldfish you.
-) They make a Progenitus and you can't find an answer (read: Deluge).
-) They combo Deathrite Shaman with multiple untaps and drain you out.
-) They assemble Visionary + Symbiote in a grindy situation.

Stoneblade/Deathblade:

This is usually a pretty favored matchup, but you do need to respect some of their draws. In general, though, their cards are fairly low powered compared to yours, and they fall into the same camp as Shardless in that they don't have enough counterspell backup to effectively protect themselves from Scapeshift. Respect their sideboard options, for they are many and diverse. Also remember that True-Name with equipment is a beating, and that they do play some quantity of planeswalkers depending on the pilot.

How you win:
-) A midgame Scapeshift, Burning Wish, or sometimes Green Sun off the top.
-) Primeval Titan is a pretty good plan here, as is Stormbreath Dragon.
-) Deed away their board.
-) Sandbag a Therapy until they play Stoneforge Mystic and take their equipment.
-) Burning Wish for Massacre can really catch these decks with their pants down and sweep them unexpectedly when they think you don't have the mana to wrath them.

How you lose:
-) You get kolded by some random weird sideboard option.
-) TNN + equipment happens and you can't find an answer.
-) Turn 2 Liliana can be problematic depending on your draw and theirs.
-) You get ground out by Lingering Souls.
-) They curve out and have just enough disruption to keep you off-balance while they aggro you out.

Sneak and Show: Less good now than when the Slaughter Games were maindeck. If they have Leyline of Sanctity you probably just lose -- if they don't, your discard and Slaughters can rip them to shreds with REB backup. Prioritize Emrakul and then Griselbrand with Slaughter Games.

Storm: Again, less good than it was -- but also less popular. If vs TES, prioritize Burning Wish with Slaughter Games. Vs ANT, you may be able to just name Ad Nauseam and win on the spot.

Reanimator: Stone unwinnable. Seriously, they can mull to four while drinking absinthe with one hand tied behind their back and they will beat your best possible 7.

Death and Taxes: This is pretty good for you. Respect the possibility of Mirran Crusader + equips, but otherwise you just have too many redundant sweepers for them to stop you. Your manabase -can- shit on itself and enable them to steal, though.

GBx midrange (junk & jund): Play to your combo half, because your beatdown plan is not good enough here. This is simply a struggle for you to stay alive until you can make them dead. Watch out for stray Wastelands, and if they're running Knighto f the Reliquary, keep that threat in mind as well.

Nyx Fit (nee Rector)

Navsi's latest list (1/5/17):

2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Phyrexian Tower
1 Cavern of Souls

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Academy Rector
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eidolon of Blossoms
1 Doomwake Giant
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy

3 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Nissa, Vital Force

2 Abrupt Decay

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sterling Grove
2 Starfield of Nyx
1 Living Plane
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Parallax Wave
1 Nether Void

Sideboard:
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Humility
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Seal of Primordium

(Rector) Finishes:
Elias Klocker - 5th - Legacyturniers - 4/30/2011
Michael Thiel - 4th - Legacyturniers - 8/27/11
Matthias Frauenschlager - 3rd - GPT Amsterdam / Nurnberg - 10/1/11
Andrea Ciotta - 4th - PCLL#3 / Piacenza - 12/18/11
Stephane Roumanille - 7th - Legacy Cachan - 1/15/12
Angelo Cortazzo - 2nd - GA Vimercate LRS2012#1 - 2/12/12
Chris Higashi - 8th - SCG Open Phoenix - 4/15/12
Peter Venema - 7th - SCG Invitational Qualifier - 6/3/12
Marco Lazzazzara - 8th - Finale BBC - 6/10/12
Kevin McKee - 6th - Jupiter Games July - 7/14/12
Juan Jose Valero - 5th - Genshiken Duals Tournament - 8/25/12
Steve Thompson - 12th - SCG Open Providence - 10/14/12
Roberto Turriziani - 4th - KMTG#3 - 11/25/12
Kevin McKee - 6th - Mythic Games - 7/20/13
(Starfield) Finishes:
TBA

Summary:
This particular version is one of the oldest versions of the archetype, second only to the (now outdated* except possibly for Brael's brew) straight GB versions. While it looks quite a bit different than it did 'back in the day,' the core philosophy remains the same: a rock-inspired approach involving a fair amount of spot removal + efficient sweepers coupled with some card advantage (usually in the form of recursion), some toolboxes, and powerful, efficient creatures.

Rector, as such, has been dead dreaming since approximately Deathrite Shaman was printed. Now, however, it's gotten a new shot in the arm by way of Starfield of Nyx. Starfield is an incredibly powerful engine when assembled with Pernicious Deed and Sterling Grove, in a way very reminiscent of Sun Titan in the Rector decks of yore. First suggested by Ulysses95 in May 2016, Starfield has taken a while to really take off or be appreciated, however it is putting up decently good results in testing without being fully tuned yet, and as such is a welcome addition to the arsenal.

Strengths:
-) Highly explosive due to (usually) 3x Phyrexian Tower
-) Engine can be incredibly hard to disrupt depending on opponent. Starfield is already hard to remove, and recursive Sterling Groves makes it even worse.

Weaknesses:
-) Somewhat reliant on Academy Rector for powerful plays, which opens a vulnerability to Deathrite Shaman and other graveyard hate.
-) Flexible to the point of causing issues based upon the individual list for the day -- a very slight card choice change can wildly affect matchups.
-) Not fully tuned: there are a ton of playable enchantments that can alter the feel of the deck and its matchups, but that aren't completely explored yet.

Matchups:

(As written by Navsi)

Miracles:
They have trouble interacting with most of our permanents - Starfield and Deed are all stars here since Starfield let's you dodge the only way they interact with you (on the stack) and Deed means they can't go under you and kill you with Mentor or Entreat. Spirit of the Labyrinth is great out of the side, especially if Sterling Grove gives it shroud.

Shardless:
We don't really care about anything they do. Watch out for early Goyf aggression, as that's the most likely way for you to lose. Deed is great again. None of their removal exiles, Rector is basically Moat against them if you can keep them off Deathrite.

BGx (I assume you mean Loam, Jund, Maverick, other Nic Fit):
Dont get run over by Tarmogoyf. Slam haymaker enchantments till they lose. Often they're slow enough you can aim for Living Plane + Doomwake, but recurring Deed usually ends the game too. Deathrite can prevent Rector trigger, but doesn't do shit against Starfield.

Storm:
Therapy is God. I normally name LED since it's the card that's most likely to result in your death before you can get established. Hopefully you have a Dovescape or Nether Void or Leyline of Sanctity maindeck, because if you don't Rector triggers don't actually pressure them much. Leyline helps a lot post SB, especially with Sterling Grove. Side out your spot removal and slow spells but keep a couple sweepers in for Empty the Warren's.

D&T:
Doomwake is important. His cost isn't reduced by Thalia, remember. You can often just Sterling Grove for him eot, then untap and slam him. Deed is every important. You don't have many early blockers, but if you can resolve a Rector trigger they probably lose.

Eldrazi:
Hope they don't have Thought-Knot. Doomwake is amazing again, kills Mimic and blocks Smasher. If they're prevalent in your area, putting a Ghostly Prison or two in your sideboard helps a lot. They have little CA and no answers to enchantments, so if you can stabilize at all your probably just run them over.

A Note About Grixis Delver:
Incidentally one thing I realized - Grixis runs Deathrite, but often doesn't have an early green source which means they still get wrecked by Rector since they often can't exile him even if they have the Deathrite.

Sultai Pod

Jack Hesse's list (4/9/16):

1 Acidic Slime
1 Entomber Exarch
1 Eternal Witness
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Grave Titan
1 Liliana, Heretical Healer
1 Merciless Executioner
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Thragtusk
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
4 Veteran Explorer

2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm

4 Cabal Therapy

1 Recurring Nightmare
2 Pernicious Deed

3 Birthing Pod

1 Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
3 Forest
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Verdant Catacombs

sb::
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Massacre Wurm
1 Shriekmaw
1 Viscera Seer
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Brain Maggot
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Thoughtseize

Finishes:
Leo Maros - 8th - Knightware GPT DC - 10/13/13
David Gleicher - 6th - SCG Open Milwaukee - 10/13/13
David Gleicher - 13th - SCG Open Indianapolis - 10/27/13
Ruben Martinez - 4th - 5 torneo Team-o - 12/7/13
Michael Rusch - 3rd - MKM Legacy / Nurnberg - 12/14/13
David Gleicher - 10th - SCG Open Indianapolis - 1/5/14
Sveinung Noding - 10th - Grand Prix Paris - 2/16/14
Federico Benini - 5th - IMT SuperSide / Milano - 2/22/14
Vuolo Umberto - 4th - Kingdom Legacy 6 - 3/2/14
Russo Manfredi - 2nd - Kingdom Legacy 6 - 3/2/14
Sean Thielman - 1st - ChicagoFinal Legacy Open - 3/16/14
Kyle Weaver - 12th - Tales of Adventure 40 Duals - 3/30/14
Vuolo Umberto - 8th - Kingdom Legacy 7 - 3/30/14
Niccolo Stopponi - 6th - T1.5T#9 / Scandicci - 4/13/14
Federico Benini - 7th - FRLL#8 - 4/13/14
Philipp Dinnus - 2nd - Trader-Liga Legacy - 4/13/14
Mineri Claudio - 1st - Raffa Olympus #4 - 5/4/14
Niccolo Stopponi - 7th - AZMagicPlayers.com Legacy Series - 5/31/14
Zachary Schulz - 14th - Tales of Adventure Eternal Extravaganza - 8/2/14
Daniel Gomez Nofuentes - 12th - LCL 2014 September - 9/24/14
Gianluca Barbati - 8th - Bologna GBLL#6 - 2/15/15
Alex Sowieja - 10th - SCG Premier IQ Milwaukee - 9/20/15
David Gleicher - 7th - SCG Premier IQ Milwaukee - 9/20/15
David Holker - 8th - MKM Series #3 Prague - 10/16/15
Jack Hesse - 7th - SCG Invitational Qualifier - Milwaukee - 4/9/16
Jonas Zimmerman - 6th - MKM Series Frankfurt Main Event - 5/15/16

Summary:
As the name implies, Sultai Pod is focused entirely around Birthing Pod and the abuse thereof. Among its other accomplishments, this version has achieved a 10th place finish at a Grand Prix, which is something that none of the other versions can boast of. This version was pretty much unknown until David Gleicher had back-to-back high placing SCG finishes, and then it kind of took off from there. While not incredibly popular, it has put up a respectable number and quality of finishes since its creation, and it has continued to perform through 2014 -- which thusfar has been a rough year for Nic Fit.

The deck operates basically by just valuing the opponent out. It has various hateful creatures along the Pod chain, along with potent threats and finishers. It also gets to run a Trinket Mage to Pod up, which enables it to take up fewer deck slots with redundant Sensei's Divining Tops.

Notably, BUG Pod gets to run Brainstorm, although the number of Brainstorms is a question that has yet to be answered. Some prefer the full set, whereas some only run it as a 3of or even a 2of.

Unlike most other Nic Fits, BUG Pod stands to gain a lot moving forward, as every green, blue, or black creature yet to be printed may have a place in this deck. It's much harder for new toys to find slots in other versions -- but Pod's raw power and selection is pretty much unrivaled at this point.

Strengths:
-) An online Birthing Pod is absolutely monstrous against most of the format.
-) Toolboxes within the toolbox enables redundant flexibility even when Pod isn't online.
-) Good mix of hateful, disruptive creatures and powerful threats.
-) Blue-colored Nic Fit means that strong anti-combo measures like Force of Will and Flusterstorm are available postboard.
-) Highly customizable for any given metagame.

Weaknesses:
-) Pod deck. Sometimes Pod won't be online, and even with the extra toolboxes, the deck is notably worse without its namesake.
-) Pod deck. All of your "spells" need to be creatures in order to take advantage of Birthing Pod. This can limit deck construction harshly because there are only so many playable "spell creatures" in existence.
-) Harder to play than the average Nic Fit list (which is already fairly hard).
-) Very difficult to build correctly. I firmly believe that we have yet to see the best version of this deck, just because of the sheer number of possibly viable pod chains and things that it can do.

Matchups:

Arianrhod
01-16-2017, 12:01 AM
VI. Secondary Variants:

Classic Straight GB

Caleb Durward's Invitational List (12/11/11):
Creatures [17]
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Wickerbough Elder
2 Eternal Witness
2 Grave Titan
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer

Instants [3]
1 Go for the Throat
2 Dismember

Sorceries [14]
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Enchantments [3]
3 Pernicious Deed

Planeswalkers [1]
1 Liliana of the Veil

Artifacts [2]
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Lands [21]
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs

SB::
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Extirpate
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Damnation

Finishes:
Caleb Durward - 5th - SCG Invitational 2011 - 12/11/11
Bernd Fritsch - 4th - WPN Qualifier LegacyTurniers - 12/28/11
Robert Lippmann - 6th - WPN Qualifier Legacy Turniers - 2/25/12
Borja Ceberio - 3rd - 3 LLG 2012 - 3/11/12
Kabelis - 1st - Magic-League Legacy Trial - 8/15/12
Matt Bevilaqua - 4th - DHG November Buncha Duals - 11/10/12
Alessio Papi - KING 4 / Roma - 12/16/12
Kurt Madouse - 3rd - Philadelphia Legacy Series #3 - 8/31/13
Ivan Cominelli - 2nd - Olympus #2 / Raffa - 2/9/14
Ivan Cominelli - 8th - Olympus #5 / Moniga - 6/1/14

Summary:
This is pretty much what started it all. The original successful lists where straight green/black. While they've since fallen out of favor, they do put up some modest results still -- mostly in Europe at smaller events.

One of the biggest draws of this version was that you got to run Hymn to Tourach, which opened some incredibly strong opening lines where you could Therapy/Explorer/Therapy/Hymn to Tourach all by the end of your turn 2, essentially emptying the opponent's hand. Your mana was also so strong that you could run manlands (usually Treetop Villages), which synergize well with Primeval Titan.

The biggest struggle for GB Nic Fit was always ending the game. The deck had a lot more dead draws lategame than most other versions, and it had few actual wincons, relying on Green Sun's Zenith to tutor them up. Once it found a wincon, it did had the "Two Towers" engine to abuse -- using Phyrexian Tower and Volrath's Stronghold, you can simulate Recurring Nightmare's effect to keep recurring your threat. As the metagame has moved to Snapcaster+Swords to Plowshares decks, coupled with the advent of Council's Judgment, this style of deckbuilding is falling out of favor. Deathrite Shaman didn't do it any favors, either.

BG SE Fit

Brael's List (1/7/17)
1 Ash Barrens
3 Bayou
1 Dyrad Arbor
5 Forest
1 Maze of Ith
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Windswept Heath

1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Courser of Kruphix
4 Dark Confidant
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tireless Tracker
4 Veteran Explorer

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Crop Rotation
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Nissa, Vital Force

sb::
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Crop Rotation
3 Dark Depths
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Karakas
2 Lost Legacy
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Thespian's Stage

Summary:
As written by Brael:

This is really just another version of SE, it's following all of the same deck building principals. Lots of CA, lots of selection, low curve, and lots of ramp in order to maintain a high velocity. Unlike the Junk version though, this has much less of a tribal bend (not that Junk requires tribal, it's just a useful coincidence). The idea here is to out value your opponent and do a bunch of things each turn. In the SB is a combo plan to shift your plan of attack. The Dark Depths plan works very well with the CA this deck generates to find the pieces. It's potent and unexpected which is a generally successful strategy to steal games.

Crop Rotation is what enables most of the SB plans, either with DD or for extra utility like Karakas. Don't be afraid to bring in lands.

Matchups:

As written by Brael:

Miracles:
Even. You rely on CA a lot more than in the Junk build. If you can maintain some CA though you'll do well. The DD plan lines up pretty poorly against their StP/Terminus path of attack, but Karakas fights the Legend builds well and Lost Legacy is good for removing win conditions. Last, all 3 of your PW's stack up well against them.

Shardless/BGx:
Favored. Goyf is harder to kill (until Fatal Push releases) but they do poorly against Deed, and you'll find Deed easily. Chameleon Colossus laughs at black based decks. Like usual though, they'll pull ahead early and you'll be playing catchup.

Storm:
Not favored. Better than Junk due to Lost Legacy. If you can accelerate into it on T2, you can usually buy yourself a couple turns to hit them. In line with the acceleration plan (especially a Vet/Rotation/Tower opening) Chameleon Colossus can usually kill them in one hit after you strip a win condition away. You won't always win, but there's definitely hands that beat their hands. It's also very possible to DD combo on T2 or T3.

D&T:
Even. You're more reliant on GSZ and PW's in this build, which makes you more vulnerable to taxes. On the other hand, you can Maze of Ith away equipped attackers which really slows them down. It comes down to a grind. There's not many Deeds in the list but they'll win the game for you. This is again, a poor matchup for DD.

Eldrazi:
Favored. Same idea as with Junk. Trade aggressively, then make up your CA later. You have a better end game here because Marit Lage breaks board stalls and the pieces dodge TKS.

4c Atraxa (River Rock)

Navsi's List (1/6/17)
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra or extra basic/fetch
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower

3 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
1 Thragtusk

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Garruk Relentless
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

sb::
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
2 Lost Legacy
2 Golgari Charm
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Batterskull
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

Summary:
The first true 4-color Nic Fit, as opposed to a shard or wedge splashing for a couple of cards, 4c Atraxa is largely untuned, but everyone knows will be good. The problem is that, like Nic Fit itself, the deck has a bit of a problem with having too many possible cards and too many possible directions. At the same time, it gets to run the best cards of four colors, and once the deck crystallizes a bit more, will doubtlessly be very strong.

BG<>

Arianrhod's List (1/6/17)
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Reality Smasher
2 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Gaze of Granite
1 Maelstrom Pulse

2 Abrupt Decay

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Llanowar Wastes
4 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Wastes
2 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Phyrexian Tower

sb::
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Krosan Grip
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
2 Trinisphere
2 Thoughtseize
1 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Snuff Out / Dismember

Summary:
This version hasn't been under active development for a while, mostly due to the arrival of Sneaky Fit as a version. That said, I do still firmly believe that there is something here. Thought-Knot Seer is an incredibly stupid card, and the ramp shell works well with the Eldrazi package. There are a large number of questions with this version that need to be answered before it's really 'ready,' however -- even on a basic level, like which land package is correct: Cloudpost vs Tron vs Eldrazi Temple. Regardless, testing and a couple of events played has shown that this is worth working on. Unfortunately, it's been pushed to the back seat at the moment.

Strengths:
-) Powerful endgame, as hardcasting Eldrazi Titans is about the strongest thing you can do short of combo-killing.
-) Thought-Knot Seer gives the deck unexpected reach against combo decks, as, when coupled with Therapy, you can absolutely annihilate their hand.

Weaknesses:
-) Far from tuned or finalized.
-) Wasteland can be a huge problem to the endgame focus of the deck if we stay on Cloudposts, although it becomes less so if we move on to Temples or Tron.
-) Sideboard options leave a lot to be desired.

Abzan Pod

Paul Ewenstein's SCG Open List (5/6/12):

Creatures [19]
1 Academy Rector
1 Acidic Slime
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Bone Shredder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Grave Titan
1 Reveillark
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sun Titan
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Wickerbough Elder
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Strangleroot Geist
4 Veteran Explorer

Instants [2]
2 Swords to Plowshares

Sorceries [8]
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy

Enchantments [4]
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Recurring Nightmare

Planeswalkers [2]
2 Liliana of the Veil

Artifacts [4]
2 Birthing Pod
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Lands [21]
1 Karakas
1 Marsh Flats
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Savannah
2 Swamp
3 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

SB::
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Choke
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Extirpate
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Finishes:
Tomas Bilek - 5th - Czech Legacy Series - 1/14/12
Tomas Bilek - 2nd - Pohar cerneho rytire c.3 - 3/22/12
Alan Gerevini - 4th - PCLL#7 / Piacenza - 4/15/12
Jordi Roca Lacostena - II Torneo Liga Foro - 5/4/12
Paul Ewenstein - 2nd - SCG Open Providence 5/6/12

Summary:
While still able to be a thing, this deck combination has proven to be fairly unpopular -- surprising, given that it would be an easy jump for modern Melira Pod players. In 2012, it had a handful of major event finishes and a host of <32 player top8s -- but since 2012, it has basically disappeared from the hierarchy. I believe that this is primarily due to the relative popularity of the more rock-styled lists and the more junk-styled lists.

Still, white has some pretty impressive pod targets -- capable of making nice chains with Restoration Angel, and it gets a lot of randomly hateful creatures, like Orzhov Pontiff -- which wrecks Elves and Death and Taxes, or can pump your team for an alpha strike. There's lots of possibility here, in my opinion.

Punishing Fit

HoneyT's latest list (9/11/14):

// Deck: P-Fire Nic Fit (60)

// Lands
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
3 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
1 Broodmate Dragon
2 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer

// Spells
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Punishing Fire
4 Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge

Ralf's latest list (8/28/14):

1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Mountain
1 Savannah
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Badlands
2 Forest
3 Bayou
3 Swamp
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs

1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
2 Eternal Witness
4 Veteran Explorer

1 Garruk Relentless
3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Batterskull
3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed

2 Diabolic Edict
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire

2 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 Dryad Militant
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize

Finishes:
Alexander Podeschwa - 1st - IS-MAGIC - 4/22/12
Alain Martin - 2nd - 6 Torneo LLG - 6/2/12
Alain Martin - 8th - 7 Torneo LLG - 7/28/14
Juan Garcia Pardillo - 5th - Torneo Evolution-Sevilla - 8/26/12
Bota Varzquez - 3rd - TLA Torneo 6 - 11/11/12
Juan Garcia Pardillo - 1st - 1er Torneo Navidad Evolution-Sevilla - 12/8/12
Michael Pilz - 4th - Sunday Legacy Wien - 12/16/12
Louie Funelas - 6th - Manila Legacy Wars 6 - 2/3/13
David Clark - 20th - SCG Open Atlanta - 2/3/13
Tim Wilson - 8th - SCG Open Kansas City - 3/24/13
Claudio Mineri - 7th - Stargate Mantova - 5/12/13
Claudio Mineri - 7th - Verona Evil#10 - 6/9/13
Claudio Mineri - 4th - Olympus#5 - 6/30/13
Daeva Tommaso - 4th - KING 1 Roma - 9/8/13
Jakob Peschel - 6th - MKM Legacy Turniers in Nurnberg - 12/14/13
Borja David Palachio - 4th - Legacy Open IV / MTG Cantabria - 12/14/13
Jakob Peschel - 7th - MKM Legacy Turniers in Nurnberg - 12/21/13
Giacomo Befani - 6th - T1.5T#8 / Pisa - 3/16/14

Summary:
This variety is one of the hardest/purest control lists amongst the archetype. You kill everything, and what you can't kill, you make them sacrifice. This is the only version that can effectively / happily run Liliana of the Veil, due to her synergy with Punishing Fire meaning that you aren't just eating cards out of your hand. Perhaps the most common finisher in this version is ThrunRun: Thrun + Kessig Wolf Run. Some prefer to eschew the ThrunRun plan in exchange for Phyrexian Tower + Volrath's Stronghold. Still others prefer to use grindier threats like planeswalkers and Batterskull. Whatever your win condition, though, it's slow and ponderous -- as with most true control decks.

Sultai (bug) Control

Arianrhod's latest list (9/10/14):
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Baleful Strix
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Eternal Witness
2 Notion Thief
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 The Mimeoplasm
1 Thragtusk
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Frost Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent

2 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Future Sight
1 Recurring Nightmare

2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Phyrexian Tower

sb::
1 Bribery
1 Haunting Echoes
1 Batterskull
1 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Krosan Grip
2 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Cranial Extraction
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm

Finishes:
Jonas Kozak - 1st - Czech Legacy Series 6 - 11/10/12
Tao - 5th - Magic-League Legacy Master - 12/30/12
Kyle Weaver - 7th - Tales of Tales of Adventure - 12/7/13
Kyle Weaver - 4th - Bazaar of Moxen Qualifier - 2/22/14

Summary:
The idea of putting blue in the original GB Nic Fit is as old as the archetype, and throughout its history, generic BUG-colored control lists have shown up on and off. Generally speaking, these lists are "gimmick" free, although they may have a package of cards that has a subtheme. In my list above, for example, I have a strong blue-anti-blue subtheme, with the Notion Thiefs, ConSphinx, Glen Elendras, and Mikokoro present.

Usually, BUG Control oriented Nic Fits will run some number of planeswalkers, but it won't be the list's focus. Instead, these decks run some of the powerful Ux creatures -- where many of which do very unique things and are the best at what they do. Soem number of Baleful Strix is almost always present. Additionally, due to the higher density of blue-based, non-green creatures in these lists, Green Sun's Zenith is often de-emphasized for either more raw card advantage or for alternate tutoring options, like Living Wish.

One of the big draws of putting blue in your Nic Fit list is that you get to play with some impressively broken cards. It's very hard to lose a game after 2+ turns of Future Sight being alive. Likewise, you gain perhaps the best Sneak and Show matchup of any variant, courtesy of Clique, Glen Elendra, Venser, and Frost Titan -- not counting your "traditional" postboard hate options like Flusterstorms and Thoughtseizes.

Strengths:
-) You're Shardless BUG's literal worst nightmare. You give them more waking-up-suddenly-screaming-and-palms-sweating moments than Burn does, even.
-) Brainstorm is the most played / arguably most broken card in legacy. While you don't want to run too many of them yourself, you can greatly punish others for doing so.
-) Cliques and Glen Elendras shore up everything that Baleful Strix doesn't, presenting a fairly robust plan against most decks.
-) Lots of card advantage, both literal and virtual.

Weaknesses:
-) A lot of your threats are seriously underpowered. Your creatures tend more towards the utility side of things, and oftentimes you win by pure value, not by having any really potent threats.
-) You can struggle with Burn, which is normally a positive matchup for basically every other version.
-) Largely unproven on the grand scale. While it does have some pedigree, most pilots have opted for Punishing, Rector, and Scapewish historically, and neglected blue versions.
-) None of the backup tutoring options are as good as Green Sun's Zenith, but Green Sun is pretty bad for you.

Matchups:

Miracles

This matchup is insanely grindy. Honestly, your core plan is to win game one, and thus the match. Be aware of the clock, as it may behoove you to scoop early in game one to preserve time and try to win the next two. Your sideboard has strong options here, but your maindeck is already set up pretty well to win the long game. Take out CB when possible, but be wary of Entreat the Angels, as they can steal the game out from under you. A resolved Glen Elendra is big game, especially if you can get to her before they drop a Jace. Cliqueing Miracle triggers is very good for you, and Notion Thief can mess up a lot of their card filtering and attempts at instant-speed miracle-ing.

How you win:
-) Notion Thief blowouts. Oftentimes Notion Thiefing a Brainstorm (or, even better, a Jacestorm) won't outright win you the game -- but it will put you massively ahead.
-) Consecrated Sphinx is your last bomb. Use everything else first if at all possible...suck up as much of their removal as you possibly can before playing Sphinx. With luck, you can then ride Sphinx the rest of the way.
-) Early pressure Glen, Thief, and Clique...ideally in that order (Glen covers Thief, Thief shuts down their card draw, and Clique is a flying, cantripping Thoughtseize).
-) A resolved Future Sight or Recurring Nightmare loop. Either one will generate so much value so quickly that Miracles will crumple.

How you lose:
-) You aren't protective enough of your bombs. Know what matters in the matchup. Always, always be careful of the possibility of EoT Entreat for a million, kill you.
-) They get out ahead early with a protected Jace.
-) They randomly Blood Moon you, Thopter Foundry you, or do something else unexpected from their sideboard. Note that I wouldn't expect them to board in Blood Moons vs Nic Fit, but respect the possibility.

Delver

The Delver matchup is a little different for BUG Nic Fit. You don't generally have space in your sideboard for Carpet of Flowers, so you can't lean on that. Instead, you have Baleful Strix to slow the game down, and Abrupt Decays to help smooth things out. Coupled with Cliques and Glens, you have a lot of flying creatures that can block and kill a Delver. Instead, focus on the ground threat. Deter their Goyfs by leaving Veteran Explorers in play when possible.

Be judicious of your life total and how much of it you can safely afford to use as a resource. Goyf grows very large, very quickly in these matchups. Playing the tempo game is 100% acceptable -- odds are, you won't need to use Jace to Brainstorm as much in this matchup, so just using him to unsummon and reset opposing creatures is fine. Notion Thief blowouts won't happen often, but if it happens even once, you likely win on the spot. This matchup is so tenuous for Delver that they can't afford Recalling and double Time Walking you off of a Brainstorm. ConSphinx and Frosty the Snowman are both bigger than their everything, and Frosty can keep Goyfs under control easily.

How you win:
-) The usual Nic Fit plan: get ahead on mana, get ahead on cards, and crush them with superior power.
-) Pretty much any Nightmare loop.
-) Lots of tempo. With Thief, Clique, Venser, and Jace, you can realistically out-tempo the tempo deck if you survive your developmental turns intact.
-) Getting Sword of Fire and Ice online is particularly devastating here.

How you lose:
-) Delver bullshit hands.
-) Getting Hymned/triple Bolted/TNN'd out of the game.
-) Having your developmental turns really screwed with can sometimes put you far enough behind that they can close before you can recover, mostly due to the sheer strength of Goyf.

Shardless BUG

Seriously, you're their worst nightmare. Veterans and Strixes stabilize the game while you develop, while the threat of Notions and ConSphinx looms large. Deed is as good vs them as it is in any other version. If you untap with Future Sight, you'll bury them in cards. Sword of Fire and Ice is also rather strong here. Postboard you gain Haunting Echoes, which will exile approximately 2/3 of their deck on average. Kiora is also quite good here.

How you win:
-) Play Magic.

How you lose:
-) I have no idea.

Elves

This is a hilariously awkward matchup for both decks. Game one you'll probably die, but if you manage to string together enough disruption and ramp and if they stumble at all, you can stabilize. Notion Thief is oddly fantastic against them, as shutting down Glimpse and Visionary is pretty huge. Glen Elendra stops Green Sun's and Natural Orders effectively. Sword of Fire and Ice can help shoot down elves one-by-one in a stalled board state.

Postboard you gain a pair of Deluges and a Golgari Charm to help out with the sweeper duty, along with more generic combo hate. If you're feeling adorable you can also side in the Bribery to take one of their Hoofs (or possibly Progenitus). While none of this makes Elves a favored matchup, you're a little less colossally screwed here than most versions are.

How you win:
-) Hit enough disruption to stall the board state, and then draw into things that stop you from dying. From there, try to clock them as best as you can.
-) Chain together multiple sweepers postboard.

How you lose:
-) They rip your hand apart with Thoughtseize, taking your hate.
-) You don't draw the appropriate answers at the right times.
-) They just draw well.

Stoneblade

Stoneblade is a peculiar matchup. Stoneblade is generally classified as a blue midrange deck, which makes this something of a mirror. All of the cards you would expect to be good here are -- Thief and ConSPhinx blowouts happen fairly regularly, and you can Clique away equipments in response to the Stoneforge trigger. You also gain the pair of Krosan Grips postboard, which helps ease the equipment problem, along with your Therapies.

At the same time, True-Name can be an issue...at the very least until Toxic Deluge comes in out of the board, and sometimes even with a Deluge. They can also just bury you in value with Snapcaster and removal/discard. That being said, all of the usual control-breaker tech applies. Survive their midgame aggression intact into the late game and you'll be fine.

How you win:
-) Thief blowouts.
-) Starving their resources and then slamming a control breaker.
-) Kill / discard all of their equipment to keep their utility creatures non-threatening.

How you lose:
-) Find all of your lategame cards too early and get them Thoughtseized out of your hand.
-) They get the perfect curve with discard into threats into protection. Depending on the threats and the protection in question, you can really struggle with their curve.

Sneak and Show: Show and Tell is very dangerous for them, as you have any number of things that they very much don't want to see. If Glen Elendra resolves, she's basically unbeatable for the opponent. Postboard you gain an array of nasty things, including Bribery, which they want nothing to do with.

Storm: You aren't in as much trouble as other versions are, since you at least have interaction. Glen Elendra is, again, an all-star -- and if you can set up Notion Thief in the early game while they're cantripping and trying to set up their kill, you can punish them very harshly. Still not favorable, but you at least have tools.

Reanimator: Oddly favorable. Baleful Strix is a pain in the ass for them, and, as with storm, you have a fair amount of interaction. They can't realistically move to the Show and Tell plan postboard, as well -- you only have one angle to worry about, and while it's still definitely a hard matchup, I believe us to be (albeit slightly) favored.

Death and Taxes: Tricks. You need to know tricks. Venser and Mimeoplasm are very powerful here, since you can take a lot of unexpected lines. Revoker is public enemy #1, and if you can solve him, you probably win because Deed is just so unbelievably strong in this matchup. Postboard you gain a couple more sweepers (ones that can't be revoked, at that). Favored.

GBx Midrange (Junk and Jund): The grind is real. These decks don't really have a lot of card advantage, so Notion Thief isn't that great here -- although ConSphinx is still fine, and your cards are on average better than theirs, so cold Mikokoroing is acceptable. Future Sight is your plan here, with Frost Titan and ConSphinx doing overtime. If you can keep their Deathrites under control, Mimeoplasm will serve you very well, too.

Sultai Superfriends

David McDarby's latest list (3/29/14):

1 Baleful Strix
4 Veteran Explorer

4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Karn Liberated
3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Forest
2 Island
3 Swamp
2 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs

4 Pernicious Deed
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
1 Ponder

Sideboard:
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Notion Thief
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Negate
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendilion Clique

Finishes:
David McDarby - 7-1 or better at SCG Invitational - 3/29/14
Miscellaneous SCG Open top 64s, small event finishes

Summary:
This version is, so far, unique to David McDarby -- an SCG columnist who to my knowledge is unaware of the Source. Despite this, he has put up some pretty solid finishes with the deck, and he's made very few changes as per his articles over the last few months on it, which would suggest that he's fairly happy with where it's at and considers it mostly a finished product. Note that I disagree with this assessment.

That being said, I question how much of an effect the printing of Council's Judgment has had on this list in particular. Regardless, people have been attempting to build superfriends-style lists with the Nic Fit shell for quite a while now, and his is the first to see any real semblance of success.

This version is all-in on its planeswalkers. It is 100% reliant on Jace and Karn to actually finish the game. That being said, it's also very good at enabling these two to carry the game. It plays more removal and discard than basically any other version, and that's not counting that Karn and Jace can also serve as removal engines if the game state so requires.

Strengths:
-) Good luck to any creature deck thinking that it's going to get through that.

Weaknesses:
-) Very unpolished decklist in my opinion, as McDarby is the sole voice in the wilderness working on it.
-) Solely reliant on its planeswalkers to win the game, with no plan B. This leads to an enormously slow clock when it comes to actually winning games, especially vs combo.
-) Lots of deckslots taken up by relative do-nothings like Gitaxian Probe.

Matchups:

TBD

VII. Tertiary Variants:

These variations are mostly theoretical at this point, and have either never been fully developed or have very, very few results.

GB Scapeshift:

It has been theorized that a GB Scapeshift list could exist, using Ob Nixilis and other landfall cards. In addition, you could possibly combine this shell with a Cloudpost core. The biggest problem here, in my opinion, is how you untap the lands post-shift...you basically either have to somehow give Scapeshift flash, or run something like Amulet of Vigor or Candelabra of Tawnos.

GB Turbo:

Culling the Weak exists. A turn 1 Explorer into turn 2 Culling yields 7 mana on turn two: enough for a Therapy+Titan or GSZ->Titan sequence. The issue here is the lack of stability. This version would likely be very Belcherish -- when the stars align, it would be extremely deadly. However, the volatility of this shell likely scares everyone away from developing it.

GBx Doomsday:

A gentlemen by the name of Vacrix developed this initially: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27208-Veteran-Explorer-Doomsday -- a Veteran Storm deck. He's tried it with both an ANT shell and a Doomsday shell, but I haven't heard anything further on it for quite a while.

Jund Pod:

Birthing Pod has seen success in the other color combinations, but so far, Jund Pod has been relatively unexplored. There was some conversation on it in the old thread, but to my knowledge, it never went anywhere. Highlights include Olivia Voldaren, Flametongue Kavu, and Kiki-Jiki. You also gain the Redcap->Kiki+Conscripts infinite combo. There's probably something here.

Abzan OmniRector:

This was a popular variant in the Netherlands, particularly, a few years ago. The idea was to max out on Rectors and Diabolic Intents, and fire off an Intent on a Rector to tutor Omniscience into play + Emrakul into your hand. You used Scroll Rack as a pseudo-Brainstorm to keep combo pieces out of your hand. This version is more of a historical anecdote than anything else -- I don't believe that this list could exist in today's metagame.

Sultai Gifts:

Every few months, a group of us get bored and try to make Gifts Ungiven work. Unfortunately, every few months, we fail. The closest that we've gotten at this point is to acknowledge that the deck needs to be primarily Reanimator-oriented with the option to value-gifts on the side. Putting something fat into play is really the only thing that's powerful enough for Gifts to do currently, as we do not have the equivalent of a Vault-Key-YawgWill-Snapcaster (Regrowth) pile in legacy.

Crack the Earth and Perilous Research variants:

It's been theorized that Crack the Earth and Perilous Research could function as a non-black enabler for Veteran Explorer, opening up straight Gruul lists as well as Temur and Naya. That said, no development has really been done on any of these, and it's very unclear as to whether there's even anything here.

Natural Order:

Natural Order is a card that seems like it should be a decent option for Nic Fit, but it's never been able to work really -- about the best we've been able to manage is to use it as a sideboard plan in very graveyard centric lists. Still, this is definitely worth keeping an eye on.

Reanimator:

Likewise, running a Reanimator plan is something that is potentially in Nic Fit's wheelhouse, especially with the printing of Collective Brutality.

Arianrhod
01-16-2017, 12:01 AM
VIII. Coverage Matches:

Chris Higashi (Abzan Rock vs RUG Delver & Stoneblade) -- Rd 7 and Rd 8 of SCG Open Phoenix (4/15/12)
Rd 7: http://blip.tv/scglive/scgaz-leg-rd-7-chris-higashi-vs-benjamin-brueseke-6096615
Rd 8: http://blip.tv/scglive/scgaz-leg-rd-8-phil-renaud-vs-chris-higashi-6096748

Bruce Mills (Abzan Rock vs Hive Mind) -- Quarterfinals of SCG Open Birmingham (4/22/12)
http://blip.tv/scglive/scgal-lgc-top-8-david-maddox-vs-bruce-mills-6111223

Paul Ewenstein (Abzan Pod vs RUG Delver, Goblins, AggroLoam) -- Quarters/Semis/Finals of SCG Open Providence (5/6/12)
Quarters: http://blip.tv/scglive/scgri-leg-quarterfinals-chris-pelletier-vs-paul-ewenstein-6136815

Semis: http://blip.tv/scglive/scgri-leg-semifinals-paul-ewenstein-vs-nicholas-patnode-1-6137404

Finals: http://blip.tv/scglive/scgri-leg-finals-david-rice-vs-paul-ewenstein-6136718

Steve Thompson (Rector vs BUG Delver) -- Rd 6 of SCG Open Providence (10/14/12)
http://blip.tv/scglive/scg-prov-lgc-rnd-6-ryan-phramer-vs-steven-thompson-6402089

Juan Miguel Carrascosa (Scapewish vs RUG Delver) -- Finals of Mishra's Factory Open (11/17/12)
Game 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVZjajy96y4
Game 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEIrg7yqekQ

Kevin McKee (Scapewish vs Mono-blue Nivmagus) -- Rd 6 of SCG Columbus (1/6/13)
http://blip.tv/scglive/scgcol-leg-rd6-kevin-mckee-vs-reese-gunn-6496269

Tim Wilson (Punishing Fit vs Reanimator) -- Quarterfinals of SCG Open Kansas (3/24/13)
http://blip.tv/scglive/scgkc-leg-quarterfinals-devin-koepke-vs-tim-wilson-6558983

David Gleicher (BUG Pod vs Shardless BUG and BUG Delver) Rd 3 & Rd 5 of SCG Milwaukee (10/13/13)
Rd 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AITzKpdassY
Rd 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_RZmriarss

David Gleicher (BUG Pod vs BUG Control) -- Rd 5 of SCG Open Indianapolis (1/5/14)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZ4_7arwBpI

David McDarby (Veteran Planeswalkers vs Death and Taxes) -- Rd 5 of SCG Knoxville (5/11/14)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvBuGXGcMw4

David Malafarina vs Ari Lax (BUG Fit vs Deathblade) - Rd 1 of Legacy Champs 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjT6W_azzlU

Sam Castrucci vs David Tipton (Scapewish) - Rd 5 of Legacy Champs 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kz1XWtShGMU

Arianrhod
01-16-2017, 12:02 AM
Reserved 4 of 5

Arianrhod
01-16-2017, 12:02 AM
Reserved 5 of 5. Continue talking while I upload!

Arianrhod
01-16-2017, 12:17 AM
Primer successfully updated, although I had to completely redo all the formatting, which was a bit awful. I'm leaving the above two reserved posts for future content -- I'm planning on eventually adding a sideboard section and expanding the links section a fair bit, so I wanted to make sure that I had plenty of room to work with. I'm also going to try to be a bit better about updating the primer as things happen over the next year or two before we need another new thread -- hopefully I can fit in the newer versions as they arise, and not have to dump 12+ hours into the next primer post / new thread. I'd rather do a bit more steady work throughout the year than go through that again, lol. Hopefully having a bit of extra space will help with that!

So uh, yeah. New thread boys. Carry on as you were!

Tokugawa
01-16-2017, 01:03 AM
Nice! Thanks for your work!

So, the detailed Planewalkers guide is in the 4/5 section?

Ralf
01-16-2017, 01:11 AM
Thank you Arian. Great work !

Arianrhod
01-16-2017, 01:22 AM
Nice! Thanks for your work!

So, the detailed Planewalkers guide is in the 4/5 section?

Actually, that's a good idea. It's linked in my signature atm (and needs updated again anyway, neither Liliana Last Hope nor Nissa Vital Force are present, and they're both relevant). I'll work on that tomorrow or the next day.

Echelon
01-16-2017, 01:57 AM
Awesome job, dude!

Continuing from the previous board - on Scryb Ranger: Well, there're a lot more uses for it than named so far, but it's not where you want to be. We already have enough utility stuff as-is, no need to add more.

Navsi
01-16-2017, 04:34 AM
Thinking of giving Aid From the Cowl a test in Nyx Fit. Might swap out the second Starfield for it - it fulfils a similar role of CA engine which builds up overwhelming advantage, but swaps the Deed synergy for Top synergy and doesn't rely on the graveyard.

Whitefaces
01-16-2017, 06:33 AM
Wow, fantastic work on the primer.

Arianrhod
01-16-2017, 10:04 AM
Thinking of giving Aid From the Cowl a test in Nyx Fit. Might swap out the second Starfield for it - it fulfils a similar role of CA engine which builds up overwhelming advantage, but swaps the Deed synergy for Top synergy and doesn't rely on the graveyard.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that just a really clunky Howling Mine that exposes your Top to Decay etc every turn?

square_two
01-16-2017, 11:01 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that just a really clunky Howling Mine that exposes your Top to Decay etc every turn?

I like Aid from the Cowl mainly due to its interaction with Sterling Grove. Sac grove, tutor something on top of library, put it into play end of turn. In this way it gets around lategame countermagic and is another way to play out expensive enchantments...although even something like Dovescape isn't -that- expensive in the first place so maybe it's a moot point.

I was about to write "and this lets you 'play' noncreature spells through Dovescape" but then I realized that Starfield does the same thing after the noncreature spell is countered in the first place, given that your opponent doesn't have graveyard hate on the field already.

Navsi
01-16-2017, 11:18 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that just a really clunky Howling Mine that exposes your Top to Decay etc every turn?

Not saying you put the Top back into play for free. Spin top, hold priority, tap Top, then rearrange the top 3 to put a haymaker on top of your library.

Arianrhod
01-16-2017, 11:45 AM
Not saying you put the Top back into play for free. Spin top, hold priority, tap Top, then rearrange the top 3 to put a haymaker on top of your library.

Ah. fair enough. That's what I was missing.

Brael
01-16-2017, 11:52 AM
Awesome job, dude!

Continuing from the previous board - on Scryb Ranger: Well, there're a lot more uses for it than named so far, but it's not where you want to be. We already have enough utility stuff as-is, no need to add more.

I'm the one who brought it up, and I agree. Was just curious if anyone had seen success with it. I'm still leaning towards Goyf over Ooze but I'm still looking for other options.

removedfromgame
01-16-2017, 11:57 AM
This is amazing. Thank you so much for this

Ralf
01-16-2017, 01:06 PM
I'm the one who brought it up, and I agree. Was just curious if anyone had seen success with it. I'm still leaning towards Goyf over Ooze but I'm still looking for other options.

I went down that road a few times (in some former posts).

There is no 2 CMC drop better than Tarmo, but Strangleroot Geist can be a very neat choice.
If you look for a beater against combo, I would pick up Geist in a heart beat:
- Broken with Therapy (obviously)
- Only fear STP
- Better synergy with the rest of your deck
- GG is painful sometimes (really).

If you don't mind going to CMC 3, I'm a fan of KoTR if you can afford "W".

square_two
01-16-2017, 01:09 PM
There is no 2 CMC drop better than Tarmo, but Strangleroot Geist can be a very neat choice.

I'll add that Geist has additional utility against planeswalkers due to the haste.

Captain Hammer
01-16-2017, 01:14 PM
Great post. And a much needed update. Well done.

Below is what I'm running, I've been very very pleased with Natural Order. As per the OP's quote, I think it's fitting: “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Natural Order
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Collective Brutality
1 Liliana of the Vess

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Siege Rhino
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Progenitus

4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard:
3 Thoughtseize
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Choke
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Toxic Deluge

As you can see, the most recent change to the list is the addition of 2 Collective Brutality, 1 Liliana of the Vess and a Fauna Shaman. Collective Brutality is a great card that also lets you dump any drawn Progenitus (Liliana does this as well) or kill your own Veteran Explorer in a pinch and also lets you peek at your opponents hand to make sure any upcoming Cabal Therapies hit. Fauna Shaman is a solid card in it's own right but it's especially useful as a way of converting a Progenitus or excess Veteran Explorers drawn in your hand into a Siege Rhino and it can be tutored up with Zenith which offers the deck a number of ways to get rid of a Progenitus in hand without having to splash blue and play 4 Brainstorm.

The build is meant to be hyper aggressive. Once it reaches 4 mana, it's game over for your opponent thanks to the unblock able, unkillable 10/10 coming for their face.

Brael
01-16-2017, 02:52 PM
I went down that road a few times (in some former posts).

There is no 2 CMC drop better than Tarmo, but Strangleroot Geist can be a very neat choice.
If you look for a beater against combo, I would pick up Geist in a heart beat:
- Broken with Therapy (obviously)
- Only fear STP
- Better synergy with the rest of your deck
- GG is painful sometimes (really).

If you don't mind going to CMC 3, I'm a fan of KoTR if you can afford "W".

The deck is just GB so no KoTR. I've considered geist but was concerned it's too tough to cast. I agree it's great when it works. I'll try it out. I'm a little concerned that 17 green sources isn't enough but I do like the openings it allows for. Perhaps I can convince myself that 17 is ok by accepting GSZ as making it a pseudo 21 sources.


I'll add that Geist has additional utility against planeswalkers due to the haste.

Haste is very good it's almost always relevant.

gth842s
01-16-2017, 03:05 PM
Maybe Grim Flayer? He's become a staple in Modern Abzan.

I don't think Tarmogoyf is a good fit - we're not really an aggro deck, there's no way to use Goyf as a utility card, it's a weird followup to Veteran Explorer, and it gets blown up by Deed.

EDIT: I'd been meaning to mention this for the GB experiment - Caleb Durward was considering running a single Tasigur in GB Nic Fit when Tasigur was first spoiled. It's 'Goyf-like, can come down T2-3, and may even net some cards before he eats a Swords.

Brael
01-16-2017, 03:38 PM
Maybe Grim Flayer? He's become a staple in Modern Abzan.

I don't think Tarmogoyf is a good fit - we're not really an aggro deck, there's no way to use Goyf as a utility card, it's a weird followup to Veteran Explorer, and it gets blown up by Deed.

EDIT: I'd been meaning to mention this for the GB experiment - Caleb Durward was considering running a single Tasigur in GB Nic Fit when Tasigur was first spoiled. It's 'Goyf-like, can come down T2-3, and may even net some cards before he eats a Swords.

Grim Flayer will only be a 2/2 in my list until very late in the game. I'm more interested in getting something in the 3-4 power range early. Plus, in a format with DRS and a lot of Oozes I don't think Grim Flayer has a chance.

The issue with Goyf as utility is that the utility I'm looking for is something low mana that hits my opponents hard. Being really good at hitting your opponent in the face is a very strong form of utility. I do like the Strangleroot Geist suggestion though, and I think I'm going to try it. Goyf is still in the running though. As far as getting blown up by Deed goes, I only run 1 Deed and up to 2 from the SB. If/when that's an issue, that's an easy swap to make. SE Fit is less reliant on Deed though because it's running more removal than usual and has A LOT of card draw to get additional removal. In order to really illustrate just how much draw/filtering SE has, I can regularly see half my deck (and have drawn a good portion of that) by turn 5 or 6. Which means that by turn 6 I generally see 5 removal spells out of the 10 in the list. That's effectively the ability to kill one creature of my opponents every single turn, which means I don't often need sweepers.

Tasigur is an ok card, but again not what I'm looking for in SE. It plays bad with Bob, won't return anything good, and more importantly I can't use it to turn a GSZ into board presence which is important because my deck is currently light on ways to do that when mana is tight.

Edit: Here's what I'm thinking right now:
Land 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
5 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Dyrad Arbor
1 Maze of Ith
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Bojuka Bog

Creatures 18
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Strangleroot Geist
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Chameleon Colossus

Spells 16
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Pernicious Deed

Artifact 2
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Planeswalker 3
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Nissa, Vital Force

Sideboard 15
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Crop Rotation
3 Dark Depths
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Karakas
2 Lost Legacy
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Thespian's Stage

Ganfar
01-16-2017, 04:55 PM
Maybe Grim Flayer? He's become a staple in Modern Abzan.

I don't think Tarmogoyf is a good fit - we're not really an aggro deck, there's no way to use Goyf as a utility card, it's a weird followup to Veteran Explorer, and it gets blown up by Deed.

EDIT: I'd been meaning to mention this for the GB experiment - Caleb Durward was considering running a single Tasigur in GB Nic Fit when Tasigur was first spoiled. It's 'Goyf-like, can come down T2-3, and may even net some cards before he eats a Swords.

I was also thinking about Grim Flayer today. He has been amazing in DeadGuy when I got to attack with him. Nic-fit is more BG so he will be eaier to cast. He can bring value from triggers and can be a 4/4 for two later in the game. Put Cabal in the graveyard to flashback. Puts cretures for Meren.

There is a alot it can do in nicfit. We have diffrent card types to get delierum as well.

I think I want build it like this:



// 60 Maindeck
// 3 Artifact
3 Sensei's Divining Top

// 19 Creature
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Grim Flayer
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
3 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

// 4 Enchantment
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library

// 3 Instant
3 Path to Exile

// 21 Land
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Phyrexian Tower

// 1 Planeswalker
1 Nissa, Vital Force

// 9 Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse


// 15 Sideboard

SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Ooze
SB: 1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
SB: 3 Lost Legacy
SB: 2 Duress

Navsi
01-16-2017, 05:59 PM
Other than lands and creatures, you have :

No artifacts that regularly hit the yard
Only one sorcery that's often in the yard
3 Instants
4 Enchantments

Only 7 ways of killing Deathrite, none of which you want to be using on him

You need more stuff that actually enables Delirium if you want Grim Flayer to not be garbage.

jbone2016
01-16-2017, 09:13 PM
Glad you didn't link my match vs Sam Black. Oh, the punts.

gth842s
01-16-2017, 10:08 PM
Grim Flayer will only be a 2/2 in my list until very late in the game. I'm more interested in getting something in the 3-4 power range early. Plus, in a format with DRS and a lot of Oozes I don't think Grim Flayer has a chance.

The issue with Goyf as utility is that the utility I'm looking for is something low mana that hits my opponents hard. Being really good at hitting your opponent in the face is a very strong form of utility. I do like the Strangleroot Geist suggestion though, and I think I'm going to try it. Goyf is still in the running though. As far as getting blown up by Deed goes, I only run 1 Deed and up to 2 from the SB. If/when that's an issue, that's an easy swap to make. SE Fit is less reliant on Deed though because it's running more removal than usual and has A LOT of card draw to get additional removal. In order to really illustrate just how much draw/filtering SE has, I can regularly see half my deck (and have drawn a good portion of that) by turn 5 or 6. Which means that by turn 6 I generally see 5 removal spells out of the 10 in the list. That's effectively the ability to kill one creature of my opponents every single turn, which means I don't often need sweepers.

Tasigur is an ok card, but again not what I'm looking for in SE. It plays bad with Bob, won't return anything good, and more importantly I can't use it to turn a GSZ into board presence which is important because my deck is currently light on ways to do that when mana is tight.

Edit: Here's what I'm thinking right now:
Land 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
5 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Dyrad Arbor
1 Maze of Ith
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Bojuka Bog

Creatures 18
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Strangleroot Geist
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Chameleon Colossus

Spells 16
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Pernicious Deed

Artifact 2
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Planeswalker 3
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Nissa, Vital Force

Sideboard 15
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Crop Rotation
3 Dark Depths
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Karakas
2 Lost Legacy
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Thespian's Stage

Could you explain your rationale behind removing so much of Nic Fit's card advantage and card quality in this build? I'm not really sure I understand what it's trying to accomplish compared to Rhino / 4C Fit (Midrange Goodness), Sneaky Fit (Combo-Control), Nyx Fit (Control) or what matchups you're trying to improve. Why run the Vet/Therapy combo at all alongside point removal and such a low curve?

henweigh
01-16-2017, 10:35 PM
Nice work. Since it's a primer, consider making the cards show themselves--e.g.: Pernicious Deed.

TURBODERP
01-16-2017, 10:41 PM
Awesome update! Glad to see Nyx Fit getting a spot on the main primer too.

Brael
01-16-2017, 11:46 PM
Could you explain your rationale behind removing so much of Nic Fit's card advantage and card quality in this build? I'm not really sure I understand what it's trying to accomplish compared to Rhino / 4C Fit (Midrange Goodness), Sneaky Fit (Combo-Control), Nyx Fit (Control) or what matchups you're trying to improve. Why run the Vet/Therapy combo at all alongside point removal and such a low curve?

I don't remove any card advantage, I add more of it. 26 slots in the deck are capable of providing either CA or CQ, compare that with something like rhinos which has 16 slots devoted to the same thing.

For the other part of your question, it fixes the ramp problem. Ordinarily with ramp decks, if you don't ramp up to whatever you need, your deck simply doesn't work. My experience with Legacy is that there's too much land hate to reliably ramp, and even the most consistent ramp strategies still have a bit of inconsistency in getting their mana. STP for Vet, Wastelands, Chalice OTP, so instead, I still want to use ramp but I don't want to be locked out of my deck when it's not working. So I play lower to the ground cards with a lot of CA and other mana sinks. This lets me use ramp mana effectively, and keep cards flowing. Basically, rather than do 1 strong thing a turn like play a Rhino I'm able to do 2-3 moderately powerful things a turn and maintain strong tempo. My opponents can only answer maybe 1 thing/turn so they eventually get overwhelmed.

Basically, it's using ramp to take a go wide approach rather than a go tall one. The builds not for everyone, lots of people play Nic Fit in order to cast big creatures, but the more consistent decks don't actually do that.

gth842s
01-17-2017, 01:06 AM
I don't remove any card advantage, I add more of it. 26 slots in the deck are capable of providing either CA or CQ, compare that with something like rhinos which has 16 slots devoted to the same thing.

For the other part of your question, it fixes the ramp problem. Ordinarily with ramp decks, if you don't ramp up to whatever you need, your deck simply doesn't work. My experience with Legacy is that there's too much land hate to reliably ramp, and even the most consistent ramp strategies still have a bit of inconsistency in getting their mana. STP for Vet, Wastelands, Chalice OTP, so instead, I still want to use ramp but I don't want to be locked out of my deck when it's not working. So I play lower to the ground cards with a lot of CA and other mana sinks. This lets me use ramp mana effectively, and keep cards flowing. Basically, rather than do 1 strong thing a turn like play a Rhino I'm able to do 2-3 moderately powerful things a turn and maintain strong tempo. My opponents can only answer maybe 1 thing/turn so they eventually get overwhelmed.

Basically, it's using ramp to take a go wide approach rather than a go tall one. The builds not for everyone, lots of people play Nic Fit in order to cast big creatures, but the more consistent decks don't actually do that.

I like the eye towards consistency and resiliency in your deck construction, for sure, but I guess I just disagree about the idea of running ramp alongside low impact cards and situational / virtual card advantage.

I play Nic Fit to have a grindy but explosive control deck with access to cards that are just better on an average card basis than anything my opponents can play. I'm also probably one of the more consistent skeptics on here when it comes to 4-rhino as a winning strategy. If I can survive to the mid-late game, I should be able to outclass anything my opponents are doing, but that requires a versatile toolbox supported by a ton of removal and a powerful late-game plan. The only time I want to be faster is when survival dictates disruption followed by a quick kill (combo decks, mostly).

In short, I don't advocate for going tall. I advocate for going long.

In any case, I hope you do extremely well with it. I just would like to see a GB Fit more like this (this is a very quick sketch):

4 Vet, 4 Therapy, 4 GSZ, 3 Deed, 3 SDT 3 Hymn
3 Decay, 1 Crop Rotation
2 Liliana of the Veil, 1 Garruk Relentless, 2 Nissa
1 Scooze, 2 Tracker, 1 Witness, 1 Meren, 1 Thragtusk, 1 Primeval Titan, 1 Grave Titan
4 Verdant Catacombs, 2 Windswept Heath, 2 Marsh Flats, 3 Bayou, 4 Forest, 3 Swamp,
1 Phyrexian Tower, 1 Volrath's Stronghold, 1 Dark Depths, 1 Thespian's Stage

I'm having too much with Sneak Fit right now to try it out, though.

Echelon
01-17-2017, 01:07 AM
The builds not for everyone, lots of people play Nic Fit in order to cast big creatures, but the more consistent decks don't actually do that.

The 21 land/10 fetch manabase allows you to quite easily dump all your 6 basics on the field and with the curve topping @5 you can GSZ for whatever you need. Very few games go by where I don't end up with at least those 6 lands on the field (excluding stuff like Storm, obviously). But the catch there is that you must fetch for basics and keep your duals for emergencies only. Getting one or more duals Wasted is one of the things that kill you.

Ganfar
01-17-2017, 01:46 AM
Other than lands and creatures, you have :

No artifacts that regularly hit the yard
Only one sorcery that's often in the yard
3 Instants
4 Enchantments

Only 7 ways of killing Deathrite, none of which you want to be using on him

You need more stuff that actually enables Delirium if you want Grim Flayer to not be garbage.

You forgot 3 artifakt, the Top.

fireiced
01-17-2017, 01:47 AM
Would not mind adding my input for the various walkers and their relative power in the various variants. :cool:

Nissa Vital Force (Best in Class)
The best walker in Nic Fit for all builds imho. Pressures JTMS and kills opposing Liliana of the Veils.
- 5/5 Trampling Creature land is fantastic as it dodges Abrupt Decay which is currently the most played removal atm, trades with Gurmag Angler and Reality Smasher & tramples over TNNs
- Regrowth ability is fantastic especially so when it brings back deed over and over again
- Emblems very quickly in 2 turns and the CA produced makes Shardless Variants cannot keep up with our CA even via visions

Garruk Relentless
The best walker vs Tempo decks or anything that wins with small critters like Elf & DnT. Also pressures Miracles abeit slower than Nissa Vital Force. SB option since it is bad vs Eldrazi
- Fight ability very good vs critters
- 2/2 Wolf for grindy fun
- Flip side has the awesome ability to tutor for a creature while triggering Explorers

Elspeth KR, Elspeth Sun Champion & Gideon Ally of Zen
Best vs Eldrazi, Medicore vs the rest hence usually a SB option
- Sun Champ floods the board while the other 2 clocks opponents down very quickly

Liliana the Last Hope
Good vs Critter decks and Miracles. Exclusively used in Atraxa & Leovold 4c builds.
- Does exactly what she do in Standard now which is picking off critters dead such as DnT critters and YP and makes Insectile Abberation a limpy 1/1
- Rebuys dead creatures to pressure opposing removal
- Ultimates regularly vs Miracles

Tokugawa
01-17-2017, 02:43 AM
You forgot 3 artifakt, the Top.

If the top hit GY early, either countered or discarded, usually our tactics has already failed.

Flayer/Bob/Goyf or other "2CMC value guy are not garbage; however, they need a more aggro-ish version of NicFit to be reasonable. If a list have max(3) copies of Deed in it, it cannot pretend to be an "aggro version".

Navsi
01-17-2017, 03:24 AM
Liliana the Last Hope
Good vs Critter decks and Miracles. Exclusively used in Atraxa & Leovold 4c builds.
- Does exactly what she do in Standard now which is picking off critters dead such as DnT critters and YP and makes Insectile Abberation a limpy 1/1
- Rebuys dead creatures to pressure opposing removal
- Ultimates regularly vs Miracles

Liliana has also seen a bit of use elsewhere. I've played her in Sneak and Abzan Stoneblade.
She's particularly good against DnT, since her +1 kills a ton of the deck. I'd rather have Liliana than Garruk in that Matchups (or Elves) since costing one less mana is a really important difference.

arj
01-17-2017, 04:20 AM
Would not mind adding my input for the various walkers and their relative power in the various variants. :cool:

Nissa Vital Force (Best in Class)
The best walker in Nic Fit for all builds imho. Pressures JTMS and kills opposing Liliana of the Veils.
- 5/5 Trampling Creature land is fantastic as it dodges Abrupt Decay which is currently the most played removal atm, trades with Gurmag Angler and Reality Smasher & tramples over TNNs
- Regrowth ability is fantastic especially so when it brings back deed over and over again
- Emblems very quickly in 2 turns and the CA produced makes Shardless Variants cannot keep up with our CA even via visions

Garruk Relentless
The best walker vs Tempo decks or anything that wins with small critters like Elf & DnT. Also pressures Miracles abeit slower than Nissa Vital Force. SB option since it is bad vs Eldrazi
- Fight ability very good vs critters
- 2/2 Wolf for grindy fun
- Flip side has the awesome ability to tutor for a creature while triggering Explorers

Elspeth KR, Elspeth Sun Champion & Gideon Ally of Zen
Best vs Eldrazi, Medicore vs the rest hence usually a SB option
- Sun Champ floods the board while the other 2 clocks opponents down very quickly

Liliana the Last Hope
Good vs Critter decks and Miracles. Exclusively used in Atraxa & Leovold 4c builds.
- Does exactly what she do in Standard now which is picking off critters dead such as DnT critters and YP and makes Insectile Abberation a limpy 1/1
- Rebuys dead creatures to pressure opposing removal
- Ultimates regularly vs Miracles

Nice analysis. But as I see it eldrazi is a good matchup so I'd rather run Garruk Relentless maindeck. I'm thinking of running Ajani Unyielding in the sideboard instead of Nissa.

Ganfar
01-17-2017, 04:29 AM
If the top hit GY early, either countered or discarded, usually our tactics has already failed.

Flayer/Bob/Goyf or other "2CMC value guy are not garbage; however, they need a more aggro-ish version of NicFit to be reasonable. If a list have max(3) copies of Deed in it, it cannot pretend to be an "aggro version".

So you mean that if they discard our top in turn 1, there is only downhill afterwards. And that's way we can't play Grim Flayer? Ofc the oppment will interact with us and we get cards in the graveyard.

It's not about get Grim Flayer as 4/4 soon as possible, it's about Grim Flayer can help us dig for the cards we want. Have you ever top and seen land, explore and another top that you don't want? Yes ofc you have. Grim Flayer will dump all three cards in the graveyard and become bigger. He doesn't need to be 4/4 on turn 2 or 3, he becomes bigger later like Gofy.

Navsi
01-17-2017, 04:54 AM
So you mean that if they discard our top in turn 1, there is only downhill afterwards. And that's way we can't play Grim Flayer? Ofc the oppment will interact with us and we get cards in the graveyard.

It's not about get Grim Flayer as 4/4 soon as possible, it's about Grim Flayer can help us dig for the cards we want. Have you ever top and seen land, explore and another top that you don't want? Yes ofc you have. Grim Flayer will dump all three cards in the graveyard and become bigger. He doesn't need to be 4/4 on turn 2 or 3, he becomes bigger later like Gofy.

Connecting with a 2/2 for 2 isn't exactly reliable. He gets stonewalled by a lot of decks, including often by Goyf. I wouldn't rely on his combat damage trigger at all.

If you're not getting to connect with Flayer:

- Artifacts basically never hit the graveyard
- Sorceries also are hardly ever there (you only have one that stays there)
- Lands are there, but can be eaten by Deathrite
- Creatures are same as lands
- Deed and Courser of Kruphix can be enchantments in there
- You play 3 instants

Basically you need four out of those above. You don't have enough ways of killing Deathrite to reliably keep lands or creatures in the graveyard, and same for instants and sorceries. You have nothing that lets you discard cards or mill yourself unless you're connecting with your 2/2.

You want to play more removal for Deathrite (Fatal Push or Abrupt Decay), more artifacts or enchantments (probably equipment, maybe Oath of Nissa), planeswalkers (seriously why no Liliana LH? She's exactly what the deck wants).

If you're only planning on getting Delirium online in the late game, why are you playing Grim Flayer? Surely there are better lategame payoff cards you could be playing than a 4/4 for 2.

Orms-by-Gore
01-17-2017, 01:12 PM
Nissa Vital Force (Best in Class)
The best walker in Nic Fit for all builds imho. Pressures JTMS and kills opposing Liliana of the Veils.
- 5/5 Trampling Creature land is fantastic as it dodges Abrupt Decay which is currently the most played removal atm, trades with Gurmag Angler and Reality Smasher & tramples over TNNs
- Regrowth ability is fantastic especially so when it brings back deed over and over again
- Emblems very quickly in 2 turns and the CA produced makes Shardless Variants cannot keep up with our CA even via visions


While I agree that Nissa is very good, it's probably worth pointing out that the land she animates does not get Trample, just Haste.

Brael
01-17-2017, 01:34 PM
I like the eye towards consistency and resiliency in your deck construction, for sure, but I guess I just disagree about the idea of running ramp alongside low impact cards and situational / virtual card advantage.


That's the thing though, I'm not running low impact cards. I'm running 4 mana creatures with evasion that present 2 turn clocks, I'm running Dark Depths combo, I'm running trackers, I'm running a ton of removal, and I'm running a whole bunch of card advantage. CA, strong removal, and finishers. The recipe for literally any control deck ever.

gth842s
01-17-2017, 02:09 PM
That's the thing though, I'm not running low impact cards. I'm running 4 mana creatures with evasion that present 2 turn clocks, I'm running Dark Depths combo, I'm running trackers, I'm running a ton of removal, and I'm running a whole bunch of card advantage. CA, strong removal, and finishers. The recipe for literally any control deck ever.

1 Chameleon Colossus in a format defined by Swords and Terminus isn't exactly a plethora of evasive finishers. I guess I just feel like you have to draw perfectly to beat Miracles.

I love the dark depths and the crop rotation experiment, as I've mentioned to you before. I think it's awesome.

I think we define card advantage and grinding slightly differently. Confidant is a great card, but I just don't think that Nic Fit is the right shell for him. He's so much better when supported by hymns and wastelands and KotR. StE isn't advantage, strangleroot geist is advantage but probably not the kind that's good enough for legacy. Courser's been discussed a ton on here, and the consensus seems to be that it's borderline. But honestly, my biggest issue is the low number of deeds and 2 tops instead of 3. So if it were me, I'd swap out the mediocre cards like Geist and add some more removal or hymns and another top.

But anyway, I really truly hope you do extremely well with it. My only point was that it's not how I envision and build Nic Fit. And I'll be trying out Depths whenever I move on from Sneak for sure!

volrathxp
01-17-2017, 02:34 PM
Hey thanks for creating this new thread. I will be linking to this from /r/nicfitmtg on the sidebar.

Brael
01-17-2017, 02:42 PM
1 Chameleon Colossus in a format defined by Swords and Terminus isn't exactly a plethora of evasive finishers. I guess I just feel like you have to draw perfectly to beat Miracles.

You would be surprised. The secret to beating Miracles is card advantage. They can't beat CA, which is something most Legacy decks are actually pretty short on (the format focuses on quality more than advantage). That's how this deck beats most decks actually, raw CA beats most decks.


I think we define card advantage and grinding slightly differently. Confidant is a great card, but I just don't think that Nic Fit is the right shell for him. He's so much better when supported by hymns and wastelands and KotR.

It's a different method of achieving the same result. Those decks try and use attrition cards to strip the opponent of removal and deny them resources to play their cards. By doing so, their low number of threats survive, hit the opponent, and win the game. This deck uses the SE approach which instead looks at how much removal a deck is going to draw into if that's their game plan (Miracles has the highest amount), and then plays enough threats (backed by card draw to get them) that they can't remove everything I play. If your opponent can't remove your threats but you can remove theirs, you eventually win the game.


But honestly, my biggest issue is the low number of deeds and 2 tops instead of 3. So if it were me, I'd swap out the mediocre cards like Geist and add some more removal or hymns and another top.

Deed works better when you have a bunch of 4+ drops and can pop deed for 3. Since I don't have that, it makes a lot less sense. Hymns don't work because BB isn't a good cost to pay in this deck. I would actually like one more SDT, but I cut the 3rd for a Garruk in order to raise the threat density, I'm still evaluating that one. It helps that I was finding the deck to be a lot faster with the non SDT hands than with the SDT hands.

Ganfar
01-17-2017, 04:53 PM
Connecting with a 2/2 for 2 isn't exactly reliable. He gets stonewalled by a lot of decks, including often by Goyf. I wouldn't rely on his combat damage trigger at all.

If you're not getting to connect with Flayer:

- Artifacts basically never hit the graveyard
- Sorceries also are hardly ever there (you only have one that stays there)
- Lands are there, but can be eaten by Deathrite
- Creatures are same as lands
- Deed and Courser of Kruphix can be enchantments in there
- You play 3 instants


There are only 5 that are a stone wall that costs 3 mana
Gofy
Thalia
Big Thalia
Knight of Requliry
True Name (If Grim becomes a 4/4, he can trample over 3 dmg and survive another day"

Most cretures in legacy that are two drop are 1/2 or 2/1. Grim will either become chump block or trade with a trigger. Trample is real relevnt, elves can't bounce thie creture to avdoid dmg. Same with Karakas. Few times Grim Flayer have been stopped by cretures when I have played him.



Basically you need four out of those above. You don't have enough ways of killing Deathrite to reliably keep lands or creatures in the graveyard, and same for instants and sorceries. You have nothing that lets you discard cards or mill yourself unless you're connecting with your 2/2.

You want to play more removal for Deathrite (Fatal Push or Abrupt Decay), more artifacts or enchantments (probably equipment, maybe Oath of Nissa), planeswalkers (seriously why no Liliana LH? She's exactly what the deck wants).

If you're only planning on getting Delirium online in the late game, why are you playing Grim Flayer? Surely there are better lategame payoff cards you could be playing than a 4/4 for 2.

Because Grim Flayer can still be played turn two. Even if he is not a 4/4 on turn two, he is still a great card. It becme a bouns later when he is a 4/4.

Liliana LH seems good for the deck, I agree but what can be removed?

Purple Blood
01-18-2017, 12:13 AM
Would not mind adding my input for the various walkers and their relative power in the various variants. :cool:

Nissa Vital Force (Best in Class)
The best walker in Nic Fit for all builds imho. Pressures JTMS and kills opposing Liliana of the Veils.
- 5/5 Trampling Creature land is fantastic as it dodges Abrupt Decay which is currently the most played removal atm, trades with Gurmag Angler and Reality Smasher & tramples over TNNs
- Regrowth ability is fantastic especially so when it brings back deed over and over again
- Emblems very quickly in 2 turns and the CA produced makes Shardless Variants cannot keep up with our CA even via visions

Garruk Relentless
The best walker vs Tempo decks or anything that wins with small critters like Elf & DnT. Also pressures Miracles abeit slower than Nissa Vital Force. SB option since it is bad vs Eldrazi
- Fight ability very good vs critters
- 2/2 Wolf for grindy fun
- Flip side has the awesome ability to tutor for a creature while triggering Explorers

Elspeth KR, Elspeth Sun Champion & Gideon Ally of Zen
Best vs Eldrazi, Medicore vs the rest hence usually a SB option
- Sun Champ floods the board while the other 2 clocks opponents down very quickly

Liliana the Last Hope
Good vs Critter decks and Miracles. Exclusively used in Atraxa & Leovold 4c builds.
- Does exactly what she do in Standard now which is picking off critters dead such as DnT critters and YP and makes Insectile Abberation a limpy 1/1
- Rebuys dead creatures to pressure opposing removal
- Ultimates regularly vs Miracles

The more I test it the more Nissa is just an absolute house in this deck. There's been quite a few games where I had no business winning but was able to stabilize. Although I'm a bit confused when you say trampling land.

I also want to test Ob Nixilis Reignited in the list. I'm curious if anyone has tried him out / has any thoughts on that.

Tokugawa
01-18-2017, 01:19 AM
Ob is not great. A CA engine at 5cc is too slow, and before ultimate, he cannot provide "special" ability which the other parts of your deck cannot provide.

Ganfar
01-18-2017, 01:21 AM
The more I test it the more Nissa is just an absolute house in this deck. There's been quite a few games where I had no business winning but was able to stabilize. Although I'm a bit confused when you say trampling land.

I also want to test Ob Nixilis Reignited in the list. I'm curious if anyone has tried him out / has any thoughts on that.

I have played Ob Nixilis Reignited. He is really nice with CA but slow. Easy to cast after turn two Phyrexian Tower sac Vet.

But Nissa, Virtual Force is just better then Ob.

Echelon
01-18-2017, 01:24 AM
What happened to Big Sorin in the PW list? Yes, he costs 6 mana, but his +1 is CA & kill condition roled into one, his -X is spotremoval + lifegain and his ultimate says "You win the next turn".

Granted, he didn't win me all games where he hit the field but he turned into at least a 3-for-1 (allowing me to finish off my opponent soon after).

@Arianrhod: No love for Summoner's Egg Fit in the tertiary builds list? It's pretty much the Junk coloured older brother of Sneak Fit. I know I'm the only nutcase who's ever played it and it never amounted to much, but still. It's fun as hell.

rubblekill
01-18-2017, 01:51 AM
I play two in the side because he is still the best, along with nissa, against miracles. In the main I'd rather have the second nissa

Captain Hammer
01-18-2017, 05:43 PM
Here is my current list...

4 Brainstorm
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Natural Order
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Fatal Push
1 Painful Truths

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Progenitus

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard:
3 Thoughtseize
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Choke
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Toxic Deluge

The OP's quote is very fitting in response to the various takes on the build, I frankly love the addition of Natural Order and wouldn't dream of cutting it: “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”

The build is meant to be hyper aggressive. Once it reaches 4 mana, it's game over for your opponent thanks to the unblockable, unkillable 10/10 coming for their face.

square_two
01-18-2017, 05:59 PM
Here is my current list...

The OP's quote is very fitting in response to the various takes on the build, I frankly love the addition of Natural Order and wouldn't dream of cutting it: “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”

The build is meant to be hyper aggressive. Once it reaches 4 mana, it's game over for your opponent thanks to the unblockable, unkillable 10/10 coming for their face.

Honestly adding blue makes that NO list look very spicy. Best looking one I've seen proposed. I especially like Fauna Shaman + Meren although it is likely to be fairly disruptible in a lot of matchups. I'd only try to add a Nissa VF. Perhaps (I'll get flack for this) cut a single GSZ? With 3 DRS you won't feel as much need to GSZ for a Vet early, and you have fetchland -> arbor if you need a green creature to sac for NO. I think that GSZ, at least a full playset of GSZ, is not so needed if you have excess DRS and lack any 6+ cmc green dudes. I'd say that Tracker is missing as well, but Leovold covers that spot similarly.

Mind you that I haven't played anything but Sneak Fit in a while, just throwing out ideas.

With a Leovold in the deck, how about a Mindbreak Trap in the side?

Captain Hammer
01-18-2017, 06:04 PM
Great suggestion, I'll add 3 Mindbreak Trap to the sideboard. I'm also considering cutting the Fatal Push and Painful Truths to play a Collective Brutality and Liliana of the Vess maindeck. Collective Brutality combos great with Cabal Therapy (lets you peek at your opponents hand), Veteran Explorer (lets you kill an Explorer in a pinch) and both cards even let you get rid of a drawn Progenitus.

I hadn't considered Nissa VF. What purpose would it add to the list. It's 5 mana and there's no way to tutor for it so it clearly isn't essential to the deck's functioning. Is it a way to allow you to blow up the board with Deed while still letting you maintain dominance? Because Progenitus already serves that role very well.

square_two
01-18-2017, 06:43 PM
Great suggestion, I'll add 3 Mindbreak Trap to the sideboard. I'm also considering cutting the Fatal Push and Painful Truths to play a Collective Brutality and Liliana of the Vess maindeck. Collective Brutality combos great with Cabal Therapy (lets you peek at your opponents hand), Veteran Explorer (lets you kill an Explorer in a pinch) and both cards even let you get rid of a drawn Progenitus.

I hadn't considered Nissa VF. What purpose would it add to the list. It's 5 mana and there's no way to tutor for it so it clearly isn't essential to the deck's functioning. Is it a way to allow you to blow up the board with Deed while still letting you maintain dominance? Because Progenitus already serves that role very well.

Nissa does several things in (I currently believe) every Nic Fit list. I had stuff written down but I think I can summarize her easily in that...she works wonderful along any range of aggro-grind-control that nic fit can find itself depending on both matchup and current gamestate. Fast clock, check. Recurs permanents that save from troubling situations, check. Out-grinds any game that goes long, check. She has to be answered and on a slightly different level than your creatures, and in turn answers stuff that nic fit often has trouble with (Jace in particular). I would still recommend trying her out as a Plan B/C. I can see a large number of games winning due to the 10/10, but Nissa has the chance to better guarantee those while also allowing wins without a successful NO. She, in a similar vein as Tracker and Leovold, is a different threat that simply has to be answered. I don't see how adding a second 5-drop would in any way be problematic for this deck.

Also, I spent time earlier in the year with NO Rug. I loved having Elderscale Wurm available as an NO-target. That deck struggled to survive against small creatures, so it made more sense there, but having an instant-win against Dredge, Burn, any damage combos, and giving you plenty of time in the lands matchup to find another NO for Progenitus was all very nice. It's a thought - nic fit has better board control so perhaps a separate NO target isn't as necessary (ruric thar in the side could keep NO as a game-winning play vs storm for instance).

Captain Hammer
01-18-2017, 07:27 PM
Makes sense. I'll make room for a Nissa VF.

Elderscale Wurm sounds like a really cool anticombo/aggro option as well. I'll definitely give it a try possibly in place of Thragtusk. Seems like it serves a similar role but does it much better.

Tokugawa
01-18-2017, 08:14 PM
NO/Prog kit is strictly weaker than Sneak/titan/Emrakul kit, isn't it?

Captain Hammer
01-18-2017, 11:05 PM
No it definitely isn't. Sneak requires the fatty to be in your hand. NO does not. Play what you want. But to argue one is strictly superior/inferior to another is a fool's errand.

As for Elderscale Wurm, I think I want to test Terastadon first instead. It seems just as useful than the Wurm and a faster clock. Plus I have Terastodon where as I have to wait for the Wurm to come in the mail.

Echelon
01-19-2017, 01:05 AM
I like the one where a card says "I win this turn". But that's just me.

Navsi
01-19-2017, 03:30 AM
NO has a couple of positives.

- Doesn't force you into red
- Combos with more cards (~17 Green creatures + 4 Zeniths, rather than ~4 sources of Emrakul + 4 Zeniths)
- Elderscale is a safer plan than Emrakul against Dredge and Burn
- Potentially uncounterable with Boseiju + Cavern of Souls

Disadvantages:
- 2 for 1 yourself if you get countered or Progenitus is removed
- Slow clock, can't reasonably expect to race combo
- Vulnerable to more removal (Edicts, Council's Judgment, sweepers)
- Gives opponent chance to untap and either kill you or answer Progenitus, rather than killing them before they can react
- Worse hardcast late game plan due to colour requirements - not as easily enabled by Carpet of Flowers against Miracles
- Potential to leave you with dead cards in hand
- Need to resolve two spells (Creature, NO) rather than just one (Sneak).

IMO the benefits of Sneak are way more relevant, but if you want to play a combo deck in BUG colours I don't think there are many other options that fit in Nic Fit so I suppose NO is the way to go.

Tokugawa
01-19-2017, 03:58 AM
NO has a couple of positives.

- Doesn't force you into red
- Combos with more cards (~17 Green creatures + 4 Zeniths, rather than ~4 sources of Emrakul + 4 Zeniths)
- Elderscale is a safer plan than Emrakul against Dredge and Burn
- Potentially uncounterable with Boseiju + Cavern of Souls

Disadvantages:
- 2 for 1 yourself if you get countered or Progenitus is removed
- Slow clock, can't reasonably expect to race combo
- Vulnerable to more removal (Edicts, Council's Judgment, sweepers)
- Gives opponent chance to untap and either kill you or answer Progenitus, rather than killing them before they can react
- Worse hardcast late game plan due to colour requirements - not as easily enabled by Carpet of Flowers against Miracles
- Potential to leave you with dead cards in hand

IMO the benefits of Sneak are way more relevant, but if you want to play a combo deck in BUG colours I don't think there are many other options that fit in Nic Fit so I suppose NO is the way to go.
Food chain is usually "pure" BUG. Aluren is a BUG based deck with splash(e.g R for Imperial Recruiter). If a player want to play a combo BUG deck,he...

Once NO/Progenitus decks(e.g. NO RUG, NO Bant) were dominating decks, "DTB of DTBs", a long time ago. But past glory is passed, cards like Grisel/Terminus/LotV... were printed. Progenitus is not the ideal candidate for "cheat a big boss into play" any more. Such decks declined and declined, even their name tag(decks which usually treated as out-of-date decks, like Cephalid Breakfast or Hypergenesis, could still have their tag on TCdecks and thesource) were also eliminated today. I think something could be learn from the history.

Navsi
01-19-2017, 04:57 AM
Food chain is usually "pure" BUG. Aluren is a BUG based deck with splash(e.g R for Imperial Recruiter). If a player want to play a combo BUG deck,he...

Once NO/Progenitus decks(e.g. NO RUG, NO Bant) were dominating decks, "DTB of DTBs", a long time ago. But past glory is passed, cards like Grisel/Terminus/LotV... were printed. Progenitus is not the ideal candidate for "cheat a big boss into play" any more. Such decks declined and declined, even their name tag(decks which usually treated as out-of-date decks, like Cephalid Breakfast or Hypergenesis, could still have their tag on TCdecks and thesource) were also eliminated today. I think something could be learn from the history.

I was referring to combos which could work in Nic Fit, but I guess you could probably fit either combo in the deck without skewing things too much.

Speaking of incorporating combos into BUG builds, I just put this together:

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Academy Ruins
1 Inventors' Fair

3 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Tireless Tracker

2 Nissa, Vital Force
2 Tezzeret the Seeker

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Whir of Invention
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse

1 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Executioner's Capsule
1 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard:
1 Glissa, the Traitor
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Golgari Charm
2 Lost Legacy
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Thoughtseize

Arianrhod
01-19-2017, 11:55 AM
Food Chain is actually just BUG now -- they run Glint-Nest Crane instead of Recruiters.

JackaBo
01-19-2017, 12:00 PM
Food Chain is actually just BUG now -- they run Glint-Nest Crane instead of Recruiters.

You mean alluren.


Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk

Arianrhod
01-19-2017, 12:17 PM
You mean alluren.


Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk

Errr, yeah. Correct. Sorry, I have a bad head cold and it's fucking with me, lol

maharis
01-19-2017, 02:13 PM
I just played against a really interesting BUG build with strix, tireless tracker, wasteland, courser, and traverse the ulvenwald. Anyone seen a similar list out there?

Navsi
01-19-2017, 05:24 PM
It's been tried a few times but never worked out very well sadly.
Traverse would have to replace Zenith or it eats into the actual gas slots in the deck - we can't afford to run a lot of tutors because we also need slots for interaction and for our tutor targets.
This means that we lose out on early game consistency because we have a lot lower odds of finding an Explorer on the first couple of turns to ramp with. That means we need to lower the curve because we don't go off with our ramp effects as reliably.
The deck certainly uses Strix and Tracker very well and it it probably good at getting work out of Grave Titan in the late game, but it has issues reaching the late game in a reasonable amount of time and it has some some trouble interacting with faster decks because it's game plan isn't particularly good at applying early pressure.

It's close to being good though. I could see a 4 Explorer 4 Deathrite build doing okay with Traverse since you don't need to Zenith an Explorer so much, but at the same time eating your graveyard with DRS is a little awkward for enabling Delirium - to get there reliably you'd need a lot of artifacts, enchantments and planeswalkers that are happy to go to the graveyard because they at least can't be stripped out by Deathrite Shaman as easily.

MDHackbert
01-19-2017, 09:45 PM
Maybe a Traverse deck runs more stuff like multiple Lili LH and more Towers? Certainly 3-4 Deeds I would think. If BUG, maybe Ashiok as a threat that easily gets binned quickly? Perilous Research also bins types we like (any of them-ish)

Brael
01-19-2017, 09:55 PM
Played my list again this week, 4 rounds. Exact sa

Same matchups as last week, Elves, ANT (previously thought it was TPS), Omnitell, Manaless Dredge.

Didn't do as well this week. Beat Omnitell and ANT. Lost to Manaless again because I was too lazy to add the Bojuka Bog (though it probably wouldn't have mattered, they actually FoW'ed my Crop Rotation), and I'm something like 0-10 against Elves now... pretty sure Order Elves is unwinnable.

So far my thoughts haven't changed, I do wish the Elves matchup were better, cutting down on Deeds so far makes that match pretty bad as a side effect. But, I can't have everything. Still feel like my GB is a pretty good deck when you expect to see anything. You're good against many combo matches, have great fair games, and are good against Miracles. Some stuff, you're just not going to beat though.

maharis
01-19-2017, 10:28 PM
It's been tried a few times but never worked out very well sadly.
Traverse would have to replace Zenith or it eats into the actual gas slots in the deck - we can't afford to run a lot of tutors because we also need slots for interaction and for our tutor targets.
This means that we lose out on early game consistency because we have a lot lower odds of finding an Explorer on the first couple of turns to ramp with. That means we need to lower the curve because we don't go off with our ramp effects as reliably.
The deck certainly uses Strix and Tracker very well and it it probably good at getting work out of Grave Titan in the late game, but it has issues reaching the late game in a reasonable amount of time and it has some some trouble interacting with faster decks because it's game plan isn't particularly good at applying early pressure.

It's close to being good though. I could see a 4 Explorer 4 Deathrite build doing okay with Traverse since you don't need to Zenith an Explorer so much, but at the same time eating your graveyard with DRS is a little awkward for enabling Delirium - to get there reliably you'd need a lot of artifacts, enchantments and planeswalkers that are happy to go to the graveyard because they at least can't be stripped out by Deathrite Shaman as easily.

He had GSZ too. In fact he GSZ'd for explorer. I didn't see any other "utility" lands besides Wasteland. Courser & Strix seemed to do a good job at giving him multiple card types for delirium. I imagine Fatal Push would be a boon for this kind of deck. I don't think he had Top though, I didn't see one in three games (though he did have Brainstorm.)

I imagine this kind of deck would cut down on Explorers and use DRS for more ramp and then get more value out of late explorers via GSZ by using Tireless Trackers. I should've asked for his list but I still don't know how to use MTGO haha.

Echelon
01-20-2017, 01:06 AM
@Brael: Do you run Golgari Charms in your SB? And what does your SB look like? Manaless isn't that hard to beat when you know what you're doing :wink::tongue:.

Vicar in a tutu
01-20-2017, 08:37 AM
Do you guys think Nissa, Vital Force is better than Garruk, Primal Hunter in a straight 'ol GB list? This is my list, for reference. Would you play Nissa or Garruk Primal Hunter here?

Lands (22)

4 Forest
4 Swamp
4 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Treetop Village

Creatures (14)

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

Spells (22)

3 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Abrupt Decay

Walkers (2)

2 Nissa, Vital Force OR Garruk, Primal Hunter

Jain_Mor
01-20-2017, 09:02 AM
...could you play one of each so they can both be in play at the same time?
That said you can chain Nissas, so two of her in hand isn't bad.

rubblekill
01-20-2017, 10:01 AM
With nissa you can make a quick emblem (-->win against non combo decks) and then regrow her with the second copy of nissa. This is so powerful.
Garruk is strong, but not as much as (the second) nissa. She is that good.
I have also been questioning the real purpose of any garruk in the deck. Of course he is good but doesn't threaten any meaningful ultimate and he is slow. Against non miracles deck I'd play just another 5-6 cmc bomb instead. Against miracles I am finding the 2-2 split between nissa and big Sorin very strong.
Vindicate a 3-6 loyalty jace with sorin, regrow him with nissa. That happened a non insignificant number of times and it's such a strong combination of cards, even if they aren't in your hand together you can chain them due to their card draw capabilities.
I really suggest all the 8🦏 players to try the two nissa in the main 2 big sorins in the side configuration.

square_two
01-20-2017, 10:24 AM
I also am recommending 2x Nissa VF in the main. Gal does some real work, I have a very hard time thinking of a situation where i'm not happy to see her in hand. I've got probably around 25 matches in with 2x main in my sneak list but so far seems great.

Miracles game 1 feels better. Last night I was against the new bug Leovold list and a single Nissa saved me - provided extra protection due to a Deed in the yard, caused 15 damage, and stabilized a board presence by returning E Witness which returned DRS. I can't think of any other singular card that can do so much.

(If that list continues to pick up steam, then I'll probably adjust my sideboard with 2x Golgari Charm, removing a Pyroclasm. I'm currently on 2 Pyroclasm 1 Golgari Charm. The charm is also handy against some number of increased Omnishow which I've been seeing more of online. I also swapped the Slaughter Games for 2 Lost Legacy but haven't seen them come up much so far.)

Brael
01-20-2017, 10:36 AM
@Brael: Do you run Golgari Charms in your SB? And what does your SB look like? Manaless isn't that hard to beat when you know what you're doing :wink::tongue:.

No Charms, I can't find room.

The issue primarily comes down to a lack of hate, DRS is too slow and I forgot to add the Bojuka Bog MB like we were talking about a few days ago. Mostly because I haven't settled on a new 2 drop yet. I was watching for situations where Geist would have been useful today and there were several
Without having hate there's just not much you can do when they go
T1 discard Phantasmagorian, discard 3 dredgers
T2 dredge 6, hit 2 amalgams and a narcomoeba
T3 Dredge more, then Force of Will your Crop Rotation

I just need faster hate is all. Even had a game (g1, won the roll, chose to draw, mull to 5) where I had a blind Cabal Therapy, hit a card, then Vet/Therapy, hit a card, another Therapy, hit a card, and landed a DRS. I still lost that game because the DRS was my only real action and the Therapys didn't do enough.

I think that what I'm going to do in the MD to help combat the unfair meta we've currently got at my shop is -1 Scavenging Ooze, -1 Liliana, the Last Hope, +1 Bojuka Bog, +1 Strangleroot Geist.

That ends up making Elves even worse for me but that's probably ok.

Here's the list after those changes.
Land 23
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
5 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Maze of Ith

Creatures 18
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Strangleroot Geist
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth

Spells 18
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Pernicious Deed

Planeswalkers 2
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Nissa, Vital Force

Sideboard 15
3 Dark Depths
2 Thespian's Stage
1 Karakas
1 Crop Rotation
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Lost Legacy
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Carpet of Flowers


Do you guys think Nissa, Vital Force is better than Garruk, Primal Hunter in a straight 'ol GB list? This is my list, for reference. Would you play Nissa or Garruk Primal Hunter here?


Nissa is stronger than Garruk. I would recommend the split, but if you don't want to do that, play 2 Nissa.

Brael
01-20-2017, 11:24 AM
I also am recommending 2x Nissa VF in the main. Gal does some real work, I have a very hard time thinking of a situation where i'm not happy to see her in hand. I've got probably around 25 matches in with 2x main in my sneak list but so far seems great.

I'm also leaning in this direction. Garruk does some work at times, but Nissa is stronger overall.

fireiced
01-20-2017, 11:43 AM
Nice analysis. But as I see it eldrazi is a good matchup so I'd rather run Garruk Relentless maindeck. I'm thinking of running Ajani Unyielding in the sideboard instead of Nissa.

I guess it boils down to playstyle and your deck configuration. Regrowth on Nissa is bonkers imho :cool:

square_two
01-20-2017, 01:01 PM
Anyone have a chance to test out Chandra, Torch of Defiance lately? Can't remember any consensus on her. She can damage walkers (though only 2 at a time), give some slight card advantage, ramp 2 mana, remove low toughness annoying critters, and her ult does win the game quickly (especially since we have 3 Tops). I'd like to get my hands on one but she is a tad pricey right now. I think if I tried to add her in Sneak, then I'd also want to bring back Primeval Titan to the main because Chandra's +1 mana could allow for a small boost to GSZ power. She doesn't seem nearly as powerful as Nissa but the ramp is intriguing.

Maybe something close to this.

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder // 2nd Deathrite Shaman?
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Inferno Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay

4 Sneak Attack
3 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Nissa, Vital Force

Also - is Sakura-Tribe Elder subpar if you are not running Meren? Wonder if that really should be a 2nd Deathrite in my list. I love the extra basic but I love a turn 1 DRS even more.

Tokugawa
01-20-2017, 01:11 PM
Anyone have a chance to test out Chandra, Torch of Defiance lately? Can't remember any consensus on her. She can damage walkers (though only 2 at a time), give some slight card advantage, ramp 2 mana, remove low toughness annoying critters, and her ult does win the game quickly (especially since we have 3 Tops). I'd like to get my hands on one but she is a tad pricey right now. I think if I tried to add her in Sneak, then I'd also want to bring back Primeval Titan to the main because Chandra's +1 mana could allow for a small boost to GSZ power. She doesn't seem nearly as powerful as Nissa but the ramp is intriguing.

Maybe something close to this.

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder // 2nd Deathrite Shaman?
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Inferno Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay

4 Sneak Attack
3 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Nissa, Vital Force

Also - is Sakura-Tribe Elder subpar if you are not running Meren? Wonder if that really should be a 2nd Deathrite in my list. I love the extra basic but I love a turn 1 DRS even more.
What are the bolts for? Punishing fire, please.

square_two
01-20-2017, 01:29 PM
What are the bolts for? Punishing fire, please.

Cheaper more powerful removal. I made my case for them towards the end of the last thread and do not miss leaving the PFire package behind at all.

God have mercy on the poor chap trying to fight against Leovold with some Punishing Fires. :wink:

Brael
01-20-2017, 03:19 PM
Also - is Sakura-Tribe Elder subpar if you are not running Meren? Wonder if that really should be a 2nd Deathrite in my list. I love the extra basic but I love a turn 1 DRS even more.

I find the interaction rarely comes up, it's strong to be sure but in practice I find it to be too much durdling and not enough killing. That said, in your situation I would definitely go with the second DRS before adding STE.

volrathxp
01-20-2017, 04:43 PM
What are the bolts for? Punishing fire, please.

As square_two has noted, I've been on this same plan on Sneak of cutting P-Fire/Grove for Bolts. Am not looking back.

Honestly, it feels better. P-Fire is pretty slow, and as stated, Leovold is gaining in popularity. Having another way to answer him beyond just Decay in 1 card is pretty good. Having cheap effective removal at the beginning of the game, very good. Still having reach to end a game out of nowhere if your opponent is at 3 life, still really good.

In all the games I've played with the list, I've found Punishing Fire to just be too slow to deal with things like it should be. We're not a Punishing Fire deck, the engine is slow and it takes time to set up properly without any disruption. And if you get disrupted, it really slows you down. Bolt lets you deal with that thing you needed to quickly, and does so on 1 mana.

Echelon
01-21-2017, 12:33 AM
@Brael: Yeah, I can see that list having trouble with Manaless Dredge. The lands package in your SB takes up a lot of room. I wonder if it's worth it.

Also, why the 2 DRS in the SB? If you need GY hate, you need it to be fast. As in preferably free. Like Surgical Extraction, or Tormod's Crypt.

Brael
01-21-2017, 12:03 PM
@Brael: Yeah, I can see that list having trouble with Manaless Dredge. The lands package in your SB takes up a lot of room. I wonder if it's worth it.

Also, why the 2 DRS in the SB? If you need GY hate, you need it to be fast. As in preferably free. Like Surgical Extraction, or Tormod's Crypt.

The DRS isn't really there for GY hate, while that's a potential benefit it's actually there so I can bring in mana ramp when I need to take Explorers out.

The DD package has won me a lot of games, it's very useful against the medium speed combo decks but it's weak enough against Miracles and other STP decks though that I don't feel comfortable having it MB.

The Bojuka Bog should go a long ways towards fixing it. Combined with Crop Rotation that gives me 3 ways in G1 and 4 ways in G2/G3 to fully wipe the GY at instant speed. At least against most builds, the local manaless includes FoW in their build (SB only though). It's got implications for decks like BR Reanimator too.

lowpass
01-21-2017, 07:24 PM
Anyone else playing with Pharika, God of Affliction in Nyx Fit? Seems to synergize pretty well with a lot of what the deck does.


You can tutor for it with GSZ (it's only not a creature on the battlefield) or Sterling Grove
Devotion is pretty easy to trigger with all our double-color enchantments and such, and then you have a 5/5 beater (or indestructible blocker if that's needed)
You can make deathtouch snakes out of your spent Veteran Explorers
Those snakes are also enchantments, so you can trigger Constellation with them at instant speed
It's indestructible, so most enchantment removal is useless against it (it becoming a creature does open it up to StP, but by then you'll probably have a Grove out too)

fireiced
01-23-2017, 10:04 AM
I rather just Liliana, the Last Hope as the walker of choice to pick off small critters as she is easier on mana than Chandra and comes a full turn earlier which is critical if you want to emblem.

Navsi
01-23-2017, 10:40 AM
Anyone else playing with Pharika, God of Affliction in Nyx Fit? Seems to synergize pretty well with a lot of what the deck does.


You can tutor for it with GSZ (it's only not a creature on the battlefield) or Sterling Grove
Devotion is pretty easy to trigger with all our double-color enchantments and such, and then you have a 5/5 beater (or indestructible blocker if that's needed)
You can make deathtouch snakes out of your spent Veteran Explorers
Those snakes are also enchantments, so you can trigger Constellation with them at instant speed
It's indestructible, so most enchantment removal is useless against it (it becoming a creature does open it up to StP, but by then you'll probably have a Grove out too)


It's hard to kill, but it doesn't actually do anything.

- Zenithing for value is better as Eidolon of Blossoms. Zenithing for pressure is better as Sigarda.
- Rector and Sterling Grove is better for Starfield, unless you need stabilization immediately, in which case it's better for Doomwake
- You don't actually have many creatures go to the graveyard - it's pretty much just Vet and Witness, since Eidolon etc you want to keep there as Starfield targets, and Rector exiles itself.
- Enchantment removal is gonna be used on more relevant targets than a vanilla 5/5.
- If you have Starfield it's just a 3/3.

koten
01-23-2017, 08:45 PM
I'm looking to build this deck and saw this particular 5-0 list from MTGO.

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=14127&d=284061&f=LE

Is this a good place to start? What would we want to adjust right off the bat? I'm targeting this particular list as I have almost all of these cards in my collection and wouldn't have to invest heavily right away.

Echelon
01-24-2017, 01:06 AM
I'm looking to build this deck and saw this particular 5-0 list from MTGO.

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=14127&d=284061&f=LE

Is this a good place to start? What would we want to adjust right off the bat? I'm targeting this particular list as I have almost all of these cards in my collection and wouldn't have to invest heavily right away.

Well, we do have a nice, shiny new primer to look at. The list you suggest is a very odd duck. It might be smart to get some experience with a more stock list. Proxy it first before actually spending any money on it too.

Navsi
01-24-2017, 10:19 AM
Thinking of giving a BUG pod list a shot with Trophy Mage to search up some utility artifacts. In particular, she fetches Staff of Domination which I'm sure can be set up to do something powerful in this deck. Maybe Pod a recurring 2-drop (Bloodghast?) into Trophy Mage and Selvala, Heart of the Wilds?

Brael
01-24-2017, 10:27 AM
Thinking of giving a BUG pod list a shot with Trophy Mage to search up some utility artifacts. In particular, she fetches Staff of Domination which I'm sure can be set up to do something powerful in this deck. Maybe Pod a recurring 2-drop (Bloodghast?) into Trophy Mage and Selvala, Heart of the Wilds?

I've been thinking about Trophy Mage for awhile, I have that list of interesting artifacts in a post in the previous thread. My main concern with Trophy Mage right now is that it really clogs up the 3 slot. Not only do you have the Mages, but you have what they fetch. I think pod in particular is better off using Trinket Mage because that plays better as a 1 of.

I really like the Bloodghast idea though.

Navsi
01-24-2017, 10:40 AM
I really like the Bloodghast idea though.

I've been trying to get Bloodghast working properly for ages, ever since the Contamination builds we tried to make work a few months ago. I think with Fatal Push around it might be more feasible to give a shot to a build that's heavier on the black mana, running Contamination, Recurring Nightmare, Grave Titan etc. Could probably manage to splash a third colour if necessary, but it might be interesting to try and put something together.

square_two
01-24-2017, 10:54 AM
I've been trying to get Bloodghast working properly for ages, ever since the Contamination builds we tried to make work a few months ago. I think with Fatal Push around it might be more feasible to give a shot to a build that's heavier on the black mana, running Contamination, Recurring Nightmare, Grave Titan etc. Could probably manage to splash a third colour if necessary, but it might be interesting to try and put something together.

Bloodghast, Ophiomancer, Braids, Contamination, Tireless Tracker, Smokestack...

You know you want to try it :cool:

Navsi
01-24-2017, 11:40 AM
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Bloodghast
2 Ophiomancer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Academy Rector
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1 Grave Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Diabolic Intent
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse

2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Birthing Pod
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Contamination

3 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Plains
3 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Might do some testing tonight. White for Rector also expands sideboard options quite well. Gray Merchant seems good with Recurring Nightmare but might just want to be Thragtusk.

Kobra_D
01-26-2017, 12:43 AM
Hello All,

I've been playing Rhino Fit for a little while and find it appreciable with the updated primer. However, and not that I doubt the people who've posted before me, but I have found that naming chalice in the blind is most effective, as opposed to brainstorm. And when playing Eldrazi, or Big Red, or Loam, I will always name chalice. It just shuts off too much of what I want to do. Cuts me off of top, vet., Dr. Shaman, therapy, StP, PtE.

Yes, I can GSZ for pridemage, or draw an abrupt decay, at some point, I will probably end up too far behind.

I can see the argument for naming brainstorm in the dark, it is probably the most played spell in legacy, but BS doesn't shut down my game plan like chalice does.

Thoughts? I'd appreciate the feedback, either in agreement with me or the primer, but I am a little curious as Therapy involves equal parts skill, luck, and brazenness.

Echelon
01-26-2017, 01:00 AM
Thoughts? I'd appreciate the feedback, either in agreement with me or the primer, but I am a little curious as Therapy involves equal parts skill, luck, and brazenness.

If you really have no clue what your opponent is on, just wait until their first landdrop. That should give you enough to work with.

The point of the blind Brainstorm is that Brainstorm sees more play than CotV, hence giving you a better chance of hitting rather than whiffing. On the flipside, your opponent not having what you name with CT is usually a very good thing, so there's that.

Navsi
01-26-2017, 02:47 AM
I normally pretty much always drop Explorer first if I'm on the play. It opens him up to removal but that's not necessarily a problem, and it means you have more information before using Therapy.

- Against Miracles you don't particularly want Vet to trigger anyway so Swords isn't a problem
- You'd like to get the trigger against most D&T hands, but at the same time if they Swords veterans on turn one they aren't making Vial or Mom which are way worse for you
- If they make Chalice you'd rather have cast Vet than Therapy since if Explorer is already on the board you can cast Therapy into the Chalice to get the Explorer trigger anyway, which gives us better odds of being able to do something useful.

Echelon
01-26-2017, 02:58 AM
I actually really like the Explorer trigger vs. D&T. Pretty much instantly gets you out of their mana denial plan, and you benefit more from the mana than they do. For T1 plays vs. a completely unknown opponent it's probably SDT > GSZ for X = 0 if the rest of my hand is good enough > nothing > CT > Veteran Explorer.

If your opponent plays blue (generalizing here) or white, it's CT/SDT > Veteran Explorer.
If your opponent plays something without Stifles/StP that isn't Storm it's Veteran Eplorer > Cabal Therapy > SDT.

Or something along those lines. I tend to play very defensively.

Navsi
01-26-2017, 03:39 AM
I'm almost the exact reverse actually. I'd always slam Explorer turn 1 against an unknown opponent if I have a payoff card in hand.

1. Therapy (against a known deck)
2. Explorer
3. Top
4. Therapy (against unknown deck)

There are very few decks where turn one Explorer is bad. If they spent turn one hitting him with Swords, they aren't putting you under pressure or advancing their game plan.
Making Top early never impresses me. Your first few mana spent is very important, and spending turn two spinning the top makes your board position pretty awful - I'd much rather make SDT with extra mana after an Explorer trigger, or later in the game when I'm not needing to use my mana to establish a board position.

Echelon
01-26-2017, 03:44 AM
Who says you have to spin the Top T2? You can just as well cast a random CMC 1 spell through Daze (and keep a mana open as a threat so you Top at your opponents' end step).

We do play completely differently, lol.

Navsi
01-26-2017, 03:52 AM
Who says you have to spin the Top T2? You can just as well cast a random CMC 1 spell through Daze (and keep a mana open as a threat so you Top at your opponents' end step).

We do play completely differently, lol.

Sure, but in that situation you could have done the same thing by making your Veteran Explorer on turn one and the top as the spell through Daze on turn two. That way you get to attack for 1, you get the option of being more explosive / casting two Therapies through Daze if needed, and if your opponent has Chalice you can still ramp.

I'd only make Top on turn one over a different one-drop if my hand was a really iffy keep (probably a mulligan) and I needed to find more lands asap. If you're in a situation where you only have one land, and if your Veteran eats a STP you just fold, you probably make the Top first, but that should probably be a mulligan anyway unless you're already on 5 or less cards.

Echelon
01-26-2017, 04:03 AM
Sure, but in that situation you could have done the same thing by making your Veteran Explorer on turn one and the top as the spell through Daze on turn two. That way you get to attack for 1, you get the option of being more explosive / casting two Therapies through Daze if needed, and if your opponent has Chalice you can still ramp.

Or your opponent drops a Plains and casts StP. When you've cast the Top, you can just sandbag the Explorer until you have an opening/have established your opponent doesn't have the StP. Plenty of decks you face don't have a really threatening clock, so why take a risk in your gameplan? You don't need to be explosive - you're better equiped than most to go for the long game, so you might just as well take advantage of that.

Navsi
01-26-2017, 04:50 AM
Or your opponent drops a Plains and casts StP. When you've cast the Top, you can just sandbag the Explorer until you have an opening/have established your opponent doesn't have the StP. Plenty of decks you face don't have a really threatening clock, so why take a risk in your gameplan? You don't need to be explosive - you're better equiped than most to go for the long game, so you might just as well take advantage of that.

Sure, but what deck is that a good opener for?

Against Miracles, it means they don't have Counterbalance + Top online on turn two, which means you have time to actually develop your board and/or resolve a Deed, and frankly we probably didn't want an Explorer trigger anyway.
Against DnT, it means they don't have Mother of Runes or Aether Vial online on turn two, which means you're way less likely to fail to stabilize against their creatures and have more time to find and use a Pernicious Deed.
Against GWx decks they aren't ramping into a three-drop like Leovold, TNN or KOTR on turn two which makes you a lot less likely to be killed before you can stabilize again.

Also copies of STP are a precious resource for our opponents. We play a lot of creatures that don't die to much other removal, or that demand answers. If they blow an STP on a Veteran Explorer, our odds of keeping our Tireless Trackers, Leovold/Atraxa, Rhinos and Primeval Titans alive go up. I'd be pretty happy if my opponent blew Swords on my Veteran turn one a lot of the time. We play 7 more copies if we need them. By using STP on our Explorer, they're pretty much saying "I plan to end the game before you can resolve your big threats", but at the same time they aren't developing their own board position to the point where that's a pressing issue.

I'd be much more scared of "Land, go" or "Land, Top" than "Land, Swords" from a Miracles opponent.
I'd be much more scared of "Land, Vial" or "Land, Mom" than "Land, Swords" from a DnT opponent.
I'd be much more scared of "Land, Hierarch" or "Land, Deathrite" than "Land, Swords" from a Maverick / Bant opponent.

Echelon
01-26-2017, 04:59 AM
Also copies of STP are a precious resource for our opponents. We play a lot of creatures that don't die to much other removal, or that demand answers.

And what do we need to deploy those creatures..?

And for the last 2 decks - you run enough removal to deal with whatever they throw at you. Besides, your life total is another resource you can use. Especially the Rhino builds are very forgiving in that regard. Just take some hits in the face, lure them into overextending, X-for-1 them out of the water w/ a Deed and turn the game around w/ a couple of Rhinos.

Kobra_D
01-26-2017, 05:18 AM
Playing vet. first, that is pretty interesting. If my opp. does have chalice, that will be annoying but if explorer resolves then we can get ahead on mana. And if my opp. desn't have/play chalice, they have to waste resources killing vet. (which feels pretty good).

I guess I got caught up wanted to start shredding the hand as soon as possible sandbagging CT makes sense.

Thanks guys.

Whitefaces
01-26-2017, 05:30 AM
I agree with Navsi, I lead with Vet vs unknown too. It's not about being explosive, it's about establishing your gameplan.

In the abstract, yes Vet can eat a StP. But in a known meta the decks that will do that, namely Miracles and DnT, as Navsi rightly points out we don't necessarily want the trigger. I'd argue that DnT isn't as good a matchup as many people think. With mom protecting a Revoker on Deed and a bunch of mana from our vets, they can use equipment very effectively.

Ganfar
01-26-2017, 05:52 AM
I agree with Navsi, I lead with Vet vs unknown too. It's not about being explosive, it's about establishing your gameplan.

In the abstract, yes Vet can eat a StP. But in a known meta the decks that will do that, namely Miracles and DnT, as Navsi rightly points out we don't necessarily want the trigger. I'd argue that DnT isn't as good a matchup as many people think. With mom protecting a Revoker on Deed and a bunch of mana from our vets, they can use equipment very effectively.

Agree as well. It depands on the hand as well. If you really need to get Vet to die then I play Cabal first.

Otherwise, if they spend one turn to StP our Vet, be my guest.

Echelon
01-26-2017, 05:59 AM
It depends on the hand as well.

That above all else.

Navsi
01-26-2017, 06:26 AM
Yeah it depends on your hand. My logic goes something like this:

1. If I know my opponent's deck and it's a combo deck, play Therapy.
2. If I have multiple Veterans run one out
3. If I have a bad hand (<3 lands, no haymakers, no interaction, or no ramp effects), play SDT
4. If I really need a Vet trigger to get the hand to work, play something else or nothing
5. Otherwise, play Veteran.

Most of the time none of 1, 3, 4 are true, so Veteran is the thing I go for normally

Whitefaces
01-26-2017, 06:43 AM
Well sure, of course the hand will have an effect on this decision. But since we're discussing Vet, Therapy and SDT I'm assuming we have all three in the opener and vs unknown (so safe to assume otp too).

Ganfar
01-26-2017, 07:31 AM
I think Nasvi summed up it well with his post. I would do the same if I had Vet, Therapy and SDT in my starthand.

square_two
01-26-2017, 09:16 AM
Playing vet. first, that is pretty interesting. If my opp. does have chalice, that will be annoying but if explorer resolves then we can get ahead on mana. And if my opp. desn't have/play chalice, they have to waste resources killing vet. (which feels pretty good).

I guess I got caught up wanted to start shredding the hand as soon as possible sandbagging CT makes sense.

Thanks guys.

Against Eldrazi, I've found the game mainly revolves around whether I can trigger an early Vet or not. GSZ can be a life saver here if you are on the draw. If you get a mana jump then you are way safer. Gives you the speed you need to land a Deed, start chaining Rhino's, have the mana for a quick Sneak Attack, whatever your gameplan is. Pretty similar for stuff like Aggro Loam, where a Vet trigger gives you room to start opening up and deploying threats, safety from Wasteland, etc.

I'd only ever name Chalice on the blind t1 if I know I'm in a very peculiar Chalice-heavy meta.

Arianrhod
01-26-2017, 11:44 AM
+1 for leading with Vet. If I'm on the draw and my opponent plays Tundra Top, though, I will instantly slam Top if I have it, even if I'm not going to use it for a couple turns. The danger of our Top getting locked out Counterbalance is real, and our Top is very important in that matchup.

Navsi
01-26-2017, 12:04 PM
Has anyone done any testing with Renegade Rallier yet? Either in a standard Abzan (Stoneforge?) shell or one of the Protean Hulk Pod builds.

Brael
01-26-2017, 12:16 PM
If you really have no clue what your opponent is on, just wait until their first landdrop. That should give you enough to work with.

The point of the blind Brainstorm is that Brainstorm sees more play than CotV, hence giving you a better chance of hitting rather than whiffing. On the flipside, your opponent not having what you name with CT is usually a very good thing, so there's that.

More than that, a Brainstorm effectively counters your flashback.

Brael
01-26-2017, 10:27 PM
Another Thursday Night Legacy down. Similar matchups to the previous weeks, went up against Dredge (LED version this time), ANT, and Goblin Stompy. There were 8 of us who played, the meta was still utterly degenerate, field was:
ANT
ANT
Manaless Dredge
LED Dredge
Nic Fit (go me!)
Omnitell
Goblin Stompy
BR Reanimator

I ended up going 2-0-1 beating ANT/Stompy and somehow going to time against LED Dredge.

Finally made the Bojuka Bog and Strangleroot Geist changes. Bog has been great, it let me beat Dredge in G1 and it let me meaningfully interact against an attempted T2 win by ANT.

I'm pretty happy with a 2-0-1 against that field, and reinforces my decision that I'm taking the deck down the right path to be able to handle unfair matches. Crop Rotation has been pretty amazing. I'm not sure if my build is right, but including this card/package definitely feels right.

Earlier in the day I also split a few games against D&T, like usual I won the games where I could play my cards and lost the games where my mana was locked out. Elves remains unwinnable.

Edit:
ANT was close, in the end I only won the match due to pilot error, but I made a few mistakes as well.
Strangleroot Geist has been weird, not sure I like it yet but it's not horrible either.

Echelon
01-27-2017, 01:07 AM
More than that, a Brainstorm effectively counters your flashback.

Meh, mindgames man! I've managed to hit the one card I didn't know after my opponent Brainstormed. When his faced turned to "WTF" I replied "I know everything!".

Brael
01-27-2017, 11:21 AM
Meh, mindgames man! I've managed to hit the one card I didn't know after my opponent Brainstormed. When his faced turned to "WTF" I replied "I know everything!".

Those are always fun. Last night when I beat Stompy, in both games they went first they T1 Blood Mooned me. Beating that feels better than hitting 3 of the same card on a blind Therapy.

Stryfo
01-28-2017, 09:47 PM
Hello Nic Fit Thread, I am a long time Nic Fit player that likes to try out some weird stuff. I was playing a lot of BUG Walker lists, and this is a fusion of some of those lists and some of my other projects.

Land (22)
2x Bayou
2x Forest
1x Haven of the Spirit Dragon
2x Island
2x Misty Rainforest
1x Plains
1x Polluted Delta
1x Savannah
2x Swamp
1x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Wasteland
1x Windswept Heath

Creature (13)
4x Baleful Strix
4x Deathrite Shaman
1x Dragonlord Dromoka
1x Dragonlord Ojutai
3x Veteran Explorer

Planeswalker (6)
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Nissa, Vital Force
1x Ob Nixilis Reignited
1x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Sorcery (6)
4x Cabal Therapy
1x Life from the Loam
1x Raven's Crime

Enchantment (3)
3x Pernicious Deed

Artifact (3)
3x Sensei's Divining Top


Instant (7)
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Intuition

Sideboard (15)
1x Flusterstorm
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Glen Elendra Archmage
1x Golgari Charm
1x Negate
1x Pernicious Deed
3x Pulse of Murasa
3x Surgical Extraction
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (This is likely wrong, I'm cutting it, but leaving it here because it was in the list I played)
1x Thoughtseize
1x To the Slaughter

After playing three leagues, with quite reasonable success, (5-0, 4-1, 3-2), I think this is something some of you may be interested in. The inevitability afforded by the intuition package is awesome, and being able to start picking apart hands with loam/crime has been amazing against combo decks.

When I put this deck together I thought it would play a bit clunky, but it has performed extremely well so far, which is why I wanted to share it with you all!

square_two
01-28-2017, 10:27 PM
It really should have been 5-0, 5-0 and 3-2. My 2nd topdecked Bolt was just bizzaredly lucky 😊

Navsi
01-30-2017, 08:01 AM
@Stryfo: Looks pretty good. Have you had any trouble with graveyard strategies? Your list looks like it'd gain strength against combo and miracles, but have some trouble dealing with opposing Deathrites, Lilianas and Punishing Fires.

Some people on the Nic Fit subreddit were discussing Protean Hulk in Sneak Attack builds. Arianrhod, did you ever give him a try / is there an infinite we can fit in without too much trouble?

Echelon
01-30-2017, 08:05 AM
Some people on the Nic Fit subreddit were discussing Protean Hulk in Sneak Attack builds. Arianrhod, did you ever give him a try / is there an infinite we can fit in without too much trouble?

How many slots would that take..? And how big is the risk of the combo falling apart when drawing combo pieces..?

It's probably harder to pull off and costs more cards than Emrakul to the face.

mistercakes
01-30-2017, 08:17 AM
stryfo:

i played a similar deck and was wondering:

how come phyrexian tower didn't make the cut for you?
have you tried running the new emrakul in a build like this?

thanks,
-Rob

Navsi
01-30-2017, 09:43 AM
How many slots would that take..? And how big is the risk of the combo falling apart when drawing combo pieces..?

It's probably harder to pull off and costs more cards than Emrakul to the face.

- Hulk can turn into Emrakul / just get value, if you fetch Fierce Empath
- It gives you permanent board presence (by fetching, say, Inferno Titan) if you can't attack.

I don't think there are any combos that are worth playing, though, so it'd just be there for value - I'd rather play a second Bellower if I had the slots, personally. It's a pity all the combos require white.

Kobra_D
01-30-2017, 09:50 AM
The inevitability afforded by the intuition package is awesome

The list looks like a ton of fun (which let's be honest, is half the reason why all of us play nic fit). Out of curiosity, what does a *typical* intuition for you look like?

A second question I have, because I've been toying with adding p-fire to my junk list, why not run red? It provides p-fires, sneaks, D-Lord Atarka, bolt, and molten vortex. Not that I'm doubting your list, I just like red :D.

square_two
01-30-2017, 09:51 AM
- Hulk can turn into Emrakul / just get value, if you fetch Fierce Empath
- It gives you permanent board presence (by fetching, say, Inferno Titan) if you can't attack.

I don't think there are any combos that are worth playing, though, so it'd just be there for value - I'd rather play a second Bellower if I had the slots, personally. It's a pity all the combos require white.

Would require a second Phyrexian Tower instead of the Stronghold, I think. Would be a shame to see the Hulk STP'd. I've been running 2 Towers ever since I cut Primeval Titan...still unsure if it is much of a gain. Having some explosive mana after landing Vet, or having Empath able to tutor something and then next turn reliably cast it, has been nice.

Navsi
01-30-2017, 10:02 AM
Would require a second Phyrexian Tower instead of the Stronghold, I think. Would be a shame to see the Hulk STP'd. I've been running 2 Towers ever since I cut Primeval Titan...still unsure if it is much of a gain. Having some explosive mana after landing Vet, or having Empath able to tutor something and then next turn reliably cast it, has been nice.

Yeah. That's why I've been liking Distended Mindbender in my sideboard - Empath curves into it really well and you don't need six mana to get anything done.

Stryfo
01-30-2017, 11:13 AM
@Navsi: DRS is not really a problem because of how small the graveyard relevant part of the deck is. Pfire is also not a big deal because of how big Dromoka is, also, postboard we get surgicals to deal with it. Liliana can be a problem, but the planeswalkers of the deck alongside loam are pretty good at keeping you ahead, and we have abrupt decays to just kill her.

@Kobra: I didn't play red because the mana is already easily the weakest part of the deck, a red build could be done for sure, but it's a different build. As for the typical intuition, it depends, sometimes you go for 3 deeds, or 3 Jaces, other times you get loam+haven+dragon or loam+land+raven's crime. Cabal therapy and wasteland are also pretty sweet intuition targets.

@mistercakes: No phyrexian tower because I'm trying to make the deck function as well as possible without the veteran explorers, and tower without explorer is just awkward too often.

square_two
01-30-2017, 12:08 PM
I'll try to pick up the few pieces to run it at my local this week. The dragon fit, I mean. Have not been having very good success lately with sneak fit online, although I do think it does very well against the Leovold BUG decks. Screw Burn lol.

At first I think I wanted an E Witness or something in there to recur graveyard stuff. But Nissa does that just fine, and deck doesn't want GSZ anyway.

Navsi
01-30-2017, 01:31 PM
Have not been having very good success lately with sneak fit online, although I do think it does very well against the Leovold BUG decks. Screw Burn lol.

Try running a couple of Huntmaster of the Fells. He's a good value creature, pressures Miracles, two bodies for CT, ruins Burn.

l33twash0r
01-30-2017, 02:35 PM
So should Sneakyfit run nowdays some other lands than Grove and get rid of punishing fires? Wondering what kinda Nicfit to build and looking at Sneaky and something more like Rhino.dec

square_two
01-30-2017, 02:45 PM
So should Sneakyfit run nowdays some other lands than Grove and get rid of punishing fires? Wondering what kinda Nicfit to build and looking at Sneaky and something more like Rhino.dec

It seems up for personal preference right now, I don't think there is enough bulk of matches between both to really say. Arianrhod sill enjoys the PFire package as far as I know, but I and at least volrathxp have moved to Bolts. Lands get filled in with an extra fetch, basic, and Taiga.

If you are around a lot of the new Leo BUG deck, I think PFires lose some further advantage. But if you have a lot of Elves or D&T in your meta then PFires could do more work.

Due to Groves' price, I'd recommend Bolts first for someone building the deck. Get plenty of reps in and then decide if you want to invest in them.

Navsi
01-30-2017, 04:44 PM
Some people are on Bolt. Some people are on Punishing Fire. I've been liking a split of Kolaghan's Command and Fatal Push, personally.

Purple Blood
01-30-2017, 05:42 PM
What do you guys do against 12-post? I matched up against that and it was a slow inevitable grind to the end game where they go way over the top. I lost 2-0 to a Bant show and tell version (despite the fact that both games I was able to discard their Show and Tells) to a hardcast Emrakul.

Second game I boarded in Lost Legacy and Edict but it didn't really make a difference because of Karakas.

Felt like I could never end the game early enough (the decks isn't really built for that anyway) and there was no way to deal with the inevitable Eldrazi beatdown.

Other than that it was a pretty fun night - just a casual 8 man four rounder but I went up against a couple BUG decks that I was able to grind out (although both ended in draws because of time it felt like a win even if not technically). And my other matchup was against an Aluren deck where I started the second game T1: therapy t2: vet/therapy/lost legacy for Aluren. My opponents reaction was pretty funny.

Navsi
01-31-2017, 03:57 AM
What do you guys do against 12-post?

Lose.

Alternatively, play a list with a combo finish and try and go off faster than them, or run Blood Moon or similar hate. Preferably both.

Ralf
01-31-2017, 08:03 AM
I wonder whether someone noticed :

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14544&d=287256&f=LE

Budget list (land wise) but there are a couple of interesting ideas:

- No Primetime -> replaced by Ruric
- 24 lands with 10 mountains (I recall vouching for a 10 mountain build to cope with color issue)
- 3 CT MD - 1 in the side.
- Only 3 GSZ none in the side.
- Interesting take on the SB options.

Still, the manabase seems to be awful but there is definitely some ideas.

moseby
01-31-2017, 12:14 PM
Lose.

Alternatively, play a list with a combo finish and try and go off faster than them, or run Blood Moon or similar hate. Preferably both.

When I play junkfit, I run a single tagia in the main, and 3 bloodmoons in the board, against Post and Lands it is honestly your only way to win.

gth842s
01-31-2017, 05:58 PM
When I play junkfit, I run a single tagia in the main, and 3 bloodmoons in the board, against Post and Lands it is honestly your only way to win.

How have you liked the moons generally?

Worth noting that 12-post is a better match for SneakFit than most Fits. The look on an opponent's face when they show and tell and you drop in Sneak Attack or Emrakul is priceless.

square_two
01-31-2017, 11:53 PM
http://thumbnails117.imagebam.com/52995/e9803d529948794.jpg (http://www.imagebam.com/image/e9803d529948794)

Nyx Fit is kinda fun :laugh:

Curse of Death's Hold out against D&T. Ports slowed me down until Living Plane came out to play. Good news is that mtgo is fixed - Rector can now tutor up Curse just fine.

Navsi
02-01-2017, 04:14 AM
Nyx Fit is kinda fun :laugh:

Curse of Death's Hold out against D&T. Ports slowed me down until Living Plane came out to play. Good news is that mtgo is fixed - Rector can now tutor up Curse just fine.

What's your current list?
I'm thinking of playing Nyx at the next event, but I play in Paper and I'm trying to decide whether I want to stick to it even though I probably won't be able to get hold of a Nether Void.

rubblekill
02-01-2017, 05:49 AM
So, isn't there anyone here who plays a BUG value list with push strix tracker leopold meren and walkers (jace nissa)?
I'd love to shift from jund to try the new bug deck, but since it is a slow process and a pricey commitment I want to hear opinions from you guys before.
No one is brewing podless bug?

Navsi
02-01-2017, 06:39 AM
So, isn't there anyone here who plays a BUG value list with push strix tracker leopold meren and walkers (jace nissa)?
I'd love to shift from jund to try the new bug deck, but since it is a slow process and a pricey commitment I want to hear opinions from you guys before.
No one is brewing podless bug?

Jace isn't very impressive right now - we don't protect him as well as Miracles does and he's pretty bad against any unfair matchup, and only good against fair decks as a followup to a sweeper. He's the only real reason to stick to BUG rather than run four colours with Atraxa IMO. I did some brewing with it but I think 4C value is just better than BUG for us. Having Atraxa and swords and a couple white creatures (SFM, Rhino, or whatever) makes our aggro matchups way better where they can go under BUG sometimes.

rubblekill
02-01-2017, 06:45 AM
Speaking of Atraxa, she is good of course, but I'm starting to think she is a win more type of card. We stomp creature decks already with rhino, and Atraxa is worse than Sigarda in the control match up.
The blue seems to be better only for the counters we have access to in the sideboard, but even then I don't know if U is the absolutely best splash we can do. Leovold instead of tracker n 2 is nice but I'm not spending 35 for a single splash card

Echelon
02-01-2017, 06:51 AM
Speaking of Atraxa, she is good of course, but I'm starting to think she is a win more type of card. We stomp creature decks already with rhino, and Atraxa is worse than Sigarda in the control match up.
The blue seems to be better only for the counters we have access to in the sideboard, but even then I don't know if U is the absolutely best splash we can do. Leovold instead of tracker n 2 is nice but I'm not spending 35 for a single splash card

Seconded! It's a close call though. Vigilance is pretty damn good, and lifelink makes it even less attractive for your opponent to attack into Atraxa.

Navsi
02-01-2017, 07:08 AM
Speaking of Atraxa, she is good of course, but I'm starting to think she is a win more type of card. We stomp creature decks already with rhino, and Atraxa is worse than Sigarda in the control match up.
The blue seems to be better only for the counters we have access to in the sideboard, but even then I don't know if U is the absolutely best splash we can do. Leovold instead of tracker n 2 is nice but I'm not spending 35 for a single splash card

If you're playing a Rhinos build you've already sacrificed your control and combo matchups, might as well make fair deck matchups even better.

Atraxa isn't Sigarda. She isn't there to kill control - she's there as a Baneslayer that you can Zenith. She should (IMO) be replacing your Rhino slot/s as a creature that stabilizes better and kills more reliably due to the flying/vigilance/lifelink keyword soup.

IMO the #1 reason to play blue in Nic Fit is Baleful Strix. Great against a lot of the unfair decks (trades w/ Griselbrand, blocks Marit Lage), and is relevant against miracles while putting you up a card which is pretty huge. Also carries equipment very well which is relevant. Leovold is naturally amazing too, but if you don't want to spend on him that's reasonable.

Echelon
02-01-2017, 07:23 AM
Atraxa isn't Sigarda. She isn't there to kill control - she's there as a Baneslayer that you can Zenith. She should (IMO) be replacing your Rhino slot/s as a creature that stabilizes better and kills more reliably due to the flying/vigilance/lifelink keyword soup.

I'm not yet sure that she should. Both Rhino and Atraxa have their strong points under different circumstances. I've been testing her in a straight Junk list for some time now and am still unable to decide whether I like her in the list or that I'd rather have Rhino #4.

Maybe I just have to ditch my Diabolic Intent and go 4 Rhino AND Atraxa.

rubblekill
02-01-2017, 07:27 AM
If you're playing a Rhinos build you've already sacrificed your control and combo matchups, might as well make fair deck matchups even better.

Atraxa isn't Sigarda. She isn't there to kill control - she's there as a Baneslayer that you can Zenith. She should (IMO) be replacing your Rhino slot/s as a creature that stabilizes better and kills more reliably due to the flying/vigilance/lifelink keyword soup.

IMO the #1 reason to play blue in Nic Fit is Baleful Strix. Great against a lot of the unfair decks (trades w/ Griselbrand, blocks Marit Lage), and is relevant against miracles while putting you up a card which is pretty huge. Also carries equipment very well which is relevant. Leovold is naturally amazing too, but if you don't want to spend on him that's reasonable.

I think we have sacrificed those match up in the very moment we decided we enjoy to jam veteran explorers and cabal therapy together. Atraxa or strix won't change that.

I thought that, after all this time, the majority of us decided that SFM builds were sub par configurations/bad stoneblade imitations..after leaving rhino once, I have realised that rhino is a 4of or nothing type of card. The drain is what kills them a lot of the times.

Navsi
02-01-2017, 09:06 AM
I think we have sacrificed those match up in the very moment we decided we enjoy to jam veteran explorers and cabal therapy together. Atraxa or strix won't change that.

I thought that, after all this time, the majority of us decided that SFM builds were sub par configurations/bad stoneblade imitations..after leaving rhino once, I have realised that rhino is a 4of or nothing type of card. The drain is what kills them a lot of the times.

Any build can run enough card advantage to have a reasonable chance against Miracles, and Strix is highly relevant there. Combo finishes are naturally better against other combo deck, and we do run Therapy. None of the current 'fair' Nic Fit lists have particularly good combo matchups, but that's not something that's guaranteed with Explorer and Therapy - we could do a lot better in those matchups if we ran effects that interacted with them, which we do have available. We could make our combo matchups significantly better, but the path to do so does not involve running as many irrelevant cards as Rhinos does currently.

Not going to go into Stoneforge / Rhino discussion again.

Amulet of the HangingLamp
02-01-2017, 09:27 AM
I have been going back and forth between Junk splashing blue and BUG splashing white.

The main deck differences are:

Path to Exile
Vindicate
Sigarda, Host of Herons

vs

Brainstorm
Baleful Strix
Jace, the Mind Sculptor (maybe as a 1 of in BUG splashing white?)

Both decks can still play Leovold, Siege Rhino, and Atraxa. Thoughts on which build is currently better?

square_two
02-01-2017, 09:35 AM
What's your current list?
I'm thinking of playing Nyx at the next event, but I play in Paper and I'm trying to decide whether I want to stick to it even though I probably won't be able to get hold of a Nether Void.


4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
3 Phyrexian Tower

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dead Weight
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
3 Sterling Grove
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Eidolon of Blossoms
4 Academy Rector
1 Humility
1 Living Plane
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Doomwake Giant
2 Starfield of Nyx
1 Nissa, Vital Force
3 Green Sun's Zenith

Side:
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Seal of Primordium

Ralf
02-01-2017, 09:46 AM
To be honest, I think the problem lies somewhere else.

Liliana of the Veil is, in my very humble opinion, missing in most builds I've seen here.

There is not really any other card that can attack every other existing archetype (aggro, control, combo).

It is a swiss army knife. Yet many just don't play her.


Furthermore there is not so much to tweak in those decks to break her symmetry as:
1) we are already playing CT which already is, in mid/lategame, a dead draw. Hence an easy food to liliana.
2) we are playing SDT which has a built-in synergy with Liliana

Add a few other cards (2 to 4 max, I think) that have a good synergy with her (the balance has yet to be found) and call it a day.

Now the new question is: Are Rhino + LoTV a good couple ?

Dunno the answer to that...

Navsi
02-01-2017, 09:52 AM
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
3 Phyrexian Tower

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eidolon of Blossoms
4 Academy Rector
1 Doomwake Giant

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Nissa, Vital Force

2 Dead Weight
1 Sylvan Library
3 Sterling Grove
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Humility
1 Living Plane
1 Curse of Death's Hold
2 Starfield of Nyx

Side:
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Seal of Primordium

Have you found the STE to be useful much? I ended up cutting him, never felt like he got much done.

Did you ever have any problems with not being able to Zenith up pressure? Not having a reasonable clock off a GSZ always seemed tough to me - I ended up slotting a Sigarda.

Is Curse of Death's Hold really necessary in the maindeck? I put it in the sideboard, since Doomwake Giant does most of what Curse does anyway while presenting a clock and being more castable into Thalia etc. I also put Humilty in the sideboard.

Have you tried Parallax Wave? It's like Humility in terms of ruining creature matchups, but also goes infinite with Starfield and does things with Witness.

Is Library good? I never liked it and dropped it in the end for the third Top - you never search for it anyway since you have other better CA engines to be getting with Grove / Rector.


Liliana of the Veil

1) we are already playing CT which already is, in mid/lategame, a dead draw. Hence an easy food to liliana.
2) we are playing SDT which has a built-in synergy with Liliana

Now the new question is: Are Rhino + LoTV a good couple ?

Liliana definitely helps a lot of the deck's bad matchups and should probably be looked into more. Unfortunately because the deck plans to grind out the late game with all of its x-for-1s, sweepers and powerful value creatures, it's not really wanting to empty its hand out the way Liliana makes look good. That means we want some form of recurring effect - preferably not just something we want to discard (in which case Therapy and Lingering Souls do the job) but something that actually regularly comes back to hand and turns Liliana's ability into real card advantage.

As far as the available options go, the problem is that basically all of them are vulnerable to Deathrite which is pretty awful. Asylum Visitor actually looks like it might be one of the better options, since it's good off Lili and doesn't restrict deckbuilding by as much as Dark Confidant does while applying more pressure to combo/control decks (since she has 3 power).

rubblekill
02-01-2017, 10:13 AM
What about a GB list featuring hymn + good liliana and some number (2-3) of trackers? Seems insane value. Hymns become additional food for liliana in the late game.
Removal: 4 decay and 2 pushes.
The problem is the win condition: 4 rhino count both as a win condition AND a stabilisation card. That is the main reason that made me come back to rhinos after trying the PWs build posted by Arian in June. Without rhino we have to rely on something clunkier like Prime Time and Thragtusk, and we are worse against fast aggro decks.
The combination of drs, tracker, hymn and liliana seems insane against combo and control decks though.

Stryfo
02-01-2017, 10:18 AM
The only reason you don't see Lili in my builds at least is because I don't own her online, I always play her in paper, but I haven't felt like putting 90tix into an online Lili yet. I definitely felt like when I went from online games to paper, Lili was amazing though.

Navsi
02-01-2017, 10:25 AM
What about a GB list featuring hymn + good liliana and some number (2-3) of trackers? Seems insane value. Hymns become additional food for liliana in the late game.
Removal: 4 decay and 2 pushes.
The problem is the win condition: 4 rhino count both as a win condition AND a stabilisation card. That is the main reason that made me come back to rhinos after trying the PWs build posted by Arian in June. Without rhino we have to rely on something clunkier like Prime Time and Thragtusk, and we are worse against fast aggro decks.
The combination of drs, tracker, hymn and liliana seems insane against combo and control decks though.

Might be worth testing. You lose hard to anything playing Loam/Pfire, though, especially Lands. Not having any good stabilization options against Burn might also be a problem. Also your clock is super slow, although a few copies of Nissa might help that quite a bit with your clock, and you can always just slam Thragtusks.

Maybe try and fit in Contamination (ruins Lands/Tron/Miracles) and/or Recurring Nightmare (good with Liliana and Thragtusk), with some token generators like Garruk Relentless? Might be too clunky though.

square_two
02-01-2017, 10:28 AM
Have you found the STE to be useful much? I ended up cutting him, never felt like he got much done.

Did you ever have any problems with not being able to Zenith up pressure? Not having a reasonable clock off a GSZ always seemed tough to me - I ended up slotting a Sigarda.

Is Curse of Death's Hold really necessary in the maindeck? I put it in the sideboard, since Doomwake Giant does most of what Curse does anyway while presenting a clock and being more castable into Thalia etc. I also put Humilty in the sideboard.

Have you tried Parallax Wave? It's like Humility in terms of ruining creature matchups, but also goes infinite with Starfield and does things with Witness.

Is Library good? I never liked it and dropped it in the end for the third Top - you never search for it anyway since you have other better CA engines to be getting with Grove / Rector.

To be honest, for a lot of these questions I just need more reps with the deck. I probably haven't even breached 40 matches with it.

And also I'm not too sure if that is really a STE in that spot, I couldn't remember the last spot in my list. Will confirm later. I was kind of waffling on the guy at least in Sneak Fit, spot could probably be a DRS. Or another Dead Weight - I really like the weights in this list.

Now that Curse is working online, I really like it plus Doomwake (again, I need more matches to see since this is the first I've had both working). Curse is so hard to remove. Against D&T I'd rather have something more permanent since Doomwake is removed by enchantment hate -and- STP. Lands are destroyed either way with one or the other + Living Plane I suppose. If I feel like I really need a slot, then I'll consider moving Curse out. Humility is just way better with Curse available too. Lot of creature decks fold to either, but having both will seal the deal. I feel like this trifecta is pretty nice, Humility also having applications against Reanimator and Sneak/Show for game 1.

I like Library. This is about the best Nic Fit list to put it in. This subforum seems to hate the thing, but it's actual CA when you are not pressured, works to get occasional trigger for Blossoms or increase the ench count with Starfield. I think having 1 improves the deck more than weakens it. More testing will tell - though it is awfully nice to pop Grove and then flip Top to play whatever you tutor in the same turn.

Ralf
02-01-2017, 10:29 AM
What about a GB list featuring hymn + good liliana and some number (2-3) of trackers? Seems insane value. Hymns become additional food for liliana in the late game.
Removal: 4 decay and 2 pushes.
The problem is the win condition: 4 rhino count both as a win condition AND a stabilisation card. That is the main reason that made me come back to rhinos after trying the PWs build posted by Arian in June. Without rhino we have to rely on something clunkier like Prime Time and Thragtusk, and we are worse against fast aggro decks.
The combination of drs, tracker, hymn and liliana seems insane against combo and control decks though.

Look at my Abzan Fist list (in my signature).

You should find a few ideas.

If you play rhino, I definitely advise you look into W options:
- STP is better than Push
- LS is a good recurring option

The more DRS you play, the less Pernicious I think.

rubblekill
02-01-2017, 10:29 AM
Might be worth testing. You lose hard to anything playing Loam/Pfire, though, especially Lands. Not having any good stabilization options against Burn might also be a problem. Also your clock is super slow, although a few copies of Nissa might help that quite a bit with your clock, and you can always just slam Thragtusks.

Maybe try and fit in Contamination (ruins Lands/Tron/Miracles) and/or Recurring Nightmare (good with Liliana and Thragtusk), with some token generators like Garruk Relentless? Might be too clunky though.

Tracker and push could revive the old GB list posted by CalebD 3 years ago. Value + pseudo path at 1 cmc, yes please. Garruk seems better in GB now that you mention him, in my Junk list I have concluded that in the cmc 4 spot rhino/atraxa outclass Garruk. Nissa and Sorin are just stronger.

Maybe a GB walkers version? Liliana (good against combo control and midrange) Nissa (best pw, recurs other walkers) and Garruk (replaces rhino as a 4 cmc threat). Seems awesome, I'm not gonna lie.

Gearhulk to complement garruk and a strong 5 mana guy?

I already lose HARD against Lands regularly, regardless of what I play. I might be a bad player, but that mu always felt very very difficult to handle.

In the 8 rhino deck I play path, not push. I think that push has space only in BUG/GB.


E. We are cooking here boys. Now, if only someone had 300 bucks for those lilianas though...:tongue:

sdematt
02-01-2017, 10:30 AM
How have you liked the moons generally?

Worth noting that 12-post is a better match for SneakFit than most Fits. The look on an opponent's face when they show and tell and you drop in Sneak Attack or Emrakul is priceless.

Moon is typically VERY, VERY good in the matchups you want to see it in. Total shocker for most opponents (except at my LGS...when I decide to show up....)

Ralf
02-01-2017, 10:33 AM
Might be worth testing. You lose hard to anything playing Loam/Pfire, though, especially Lands. Not having any good stabilization options against Burn might also be a problem. Also your clock is super slow, although a few copies of Nissa might help that quite a bit with your clock, and you can always just slam Thragtusks.

Maybe try and fit in Contamination (ruins Lands/Tron/Miracles) and/or Recurring Nightmare (good with Liliana and Thragtusk), with some token generators like Garruk Relentless? Might be too clunky though.

As long as you are playing a Sigarda in your list, Land or any Punishing deck is winnable (definitely not favorable but winnable). Ooze is a huge trump card against these strategies but you need to play it well and late.

Navsi
02-01-2017, 10:37 AM
Dead Weight - I really like the weights in this list.

Doomwake is removed by enchantment hate -and- STP.
Humility is just way better with Curse available too.

I like Library.

I actually cut the Dead Weights. I can see their use, but if you need removal off a Rector/Grove you can always get Deed / Fetters, which is way more universal, and you could spend the Dead Weight slots on Abrupt Decay which is more universal. Usually you have better targets for your Starfield triggers anyway, at least in the games I've played. I'm also liking Abrupt Decay because it's removal which can be cast through Nether Void and Dovescape, but you aren't playing either of those so I suppose it isn't an issue.

Doomwake only dies to enchantment hate / STP if you don't have Sterling Grove, though. IMO Nyx Fit already overloads Swords with Rector, Veteran, Eidolon etc, and once you've got a Doomwake trigger or two your opponent has probably lost anyway. I also like Doomwake because he blocks Gurmag Angler and Goyf, although I suppose that is less of a problem if you're running Humility. I ended up moving Humility to the side, since it is a nonbo with Doomwake. IMO Humility + CoDH go together, either sideboard or main - I like them in the sideboard because there's enough creatureless combo around me that I only have so many slots available in the maindeck that don't interact with noncreature permanents or apply pressure.

Library is a nice CA engine but I'd rather have the second Eidolon than a Library if I just wanted to draw a million cards. The deck also runs very little lifegain compared to normal Nic Fit - imo it's actually worse at using Library than most of the other Nic Fit decks.


As long as you are playing a Sigarda in your list, Land or any Punishing deck is winnable (definitely not favorable but winnable). Ooze is a huge trump card against these strategies but you need to play it well and late.

Problem is, Sigarda requires a heavy commitment to white, which makes it a whole lot harder to reasonably plan to run Liliana of the Veil and/or Hymn to Tourach.

Ralf
02-01-2017, 10:45 AM
Problem is, Sigarda requires a heavy commitment to white, which makes it a whole lot harder to reasonably plan to run Liliana of the Veil and/or Hymn to Tourach.

No.
I disagree.

You'll GSZ for Sigarda in 80% case (at least).

Navsi
02-01-2017, 10:50 AM
No.
I disagree.

You'll GSZ for Sigarda in 80% case (at least).

Sure, but I'm not comfortable running cards that I'm unlikely to be able to cast if I ever draw them. Particularly since the deck wants to be activating Liliana regularly, so having the one card in your hand be an uncastable Sigarda is really awkward.

Ralf
02-01-2017, 11:20 AM
Sure, but I'm not comfortable running cards that I'm unlikely to be able to cast if I ever draw them. Particularly since the deck wants to be activating Liliana regularly, so having the one card in your hand be an uncastable Sigarda is really awkward.

The situation you describe is far too narrow:
1) You need a Liliana in play
2) You need to have one and only one card in hand
3) You desperately need to +1 Liliana (which is very unlikely against PF or Lands strategies because their recurring strategy outclass yours by fuc...miles or there is no light upstairs ?)

Serioulsy ?


=HYPGEOMDIST(0;1;15;60)
= 75%

It represents the chances not to have a Sigarda in hand after 8 turns on the draw or 7 turns on the play (without any mean to see the top of your deck)

////////

=1-HYPGEOMDIST(0;4;15;60)
= 70 %

It represents the chances to have a GSZ in hand etc...(same as above)


So basically in this scenario you have 50 % chances to be in the position of GSZing for Sigarda, 25 % chances to unfortunately have it already in your hand and 25 % chances neither to GSZ for it nor to have it hands.

If you had a top in the mix, you narrow down your chances to draw an unwanted Sigarda to 1 % (Maximum: either there is no light upstairs or something went really bad on your side...)


Don't mean to be rude (I leave that to Echelon :tongue: and I usually value your opinion) but I prefer speaking about "overall chances" than "comfort zone".
I won't win every match I play but I want to maximize my chances against an expected meta.

Winning G1 BECAUSE I was able to GSZ for Sigarda will make G2 & G3 even easier. Mainly because my side should cover my inner weakness to these strategies.


My two cents.

Navsi
02-01-2017, 11:33 AM
Winning G1 BECAUSE I was able to GSZ for Sigarda will make G2 & G3 even easier. Mainly because my side should cover my inner weakness to these strategies.

Having an uncastable Sigarda in hand isn't super common, but I do think it'll happen more than is safe if you're building a manabase that can cast Hymn to Tourach on turn two reasonably reliably. More Deathrites might be the answer, but then you're making your Deeds worse. What odds of having BB available turn two are you comfortable with? 16 black lands gets you 69% odds of two in your first 8 cards, but naturally access to Explorer and Deathrite improves those odds. I don't think you can get to any more than 17 black lands without cutting out a lot of white - that gives you 5 nonblack sources for 2 Forest / 2 Plains / 1 Savannah, no non-Tower utility lands.

Brael
02-01-2017, 03:29 PM
Having an uncastable Sigarda in hand isn't super common, but I do think it'll happen more than is safe if you're building a manabase that can cast Hymn to Tourach on turn two reasonably reliably. More Deathrites might be the answer, but then you're making your Deeds worse. What odds of having BB available turn two are you comfortable with? 16 black lands gets you 69% odds of two in your first 8 cards, but naturally access to Explorer and Deathrite improves those odds. I don't think you can get to any more than 17 black lands without cutting out a lot of white - that gives you 5 nonblack sources for 2 Forest / 2 Plains / 1 Savannah, no non-Tower utility lands.

Use Crop Rotation. Rotate a Forest for a Phyrexian Tower, have the Tower eat a DRS/Explorer, and you get your Hymn mana reliably at the cost of having a bit more green later on (though that's usually not a problem).

Stryfo
02-01-2017, 04:21 PM
I see people comment on the anti synergy between deed and deathrite far too often. DRS and deed are both insanely powerful, and in my experience, deathrite shaman lets you use your deeds more sparingly and more easily. You aren't going to blow a deed that is bad for you, so yes, some DRS may die to deed, but the overall trade is favorable. If it's not favorable, why are you blowing deed? For perspective, I play 4 DRS and 3 deeds, and I have never been super upset to blow away my DRS, because it's usually taking down a bunch of stuff anyways. I don't think skimping on DRS is a good idea because it supplements explorer's mana help and is fantastic against so many strategies, against almost any deck it is the best turn one play you can make.

Echelon
02-02-2017, 01:09 AM
(I leave that to Echelon :tongue: and I usually value your opinion)

Alrighty, here goes.

@Navsi: Meh, have some balls, dammit! I pull the same shit w/ Atraxa and it really hasn't been that bothersome. Also, this is another scenario where Sylvan Library helps you out. You don't necessarily play Library for the CA but rather for the card selection.

@Ralf: Does that work for you or do I need to add more?


I see people comment on the anti synergy between deed and deathrite far too often. DRS and deed are both insanely powerful, and in my experience, deathrite shaman lets you use your deeds more sparingly and more easily. You aren't going to blow a deed that is bad for you, so yes, some DRS may die to deed, but the overall trade is favorable. If it's not favorable, why are you blowing deed? For perspective, I play 4 DRS and 3 deeds, and I have never been super upset to blow away my DRS, because it's usually taking down a bunch of stuff anyways. I don't think skimping on DRS is a good idea because it supplements explorer's mana help and is fantastic against so many strategies, against almost any deck it is the best turn one play you can make.

People caring about Deed blowing up DRS have the wrong mindset to play this deck. It's a sever-the-limb-to-save-the-whole type of deal. And who cares about DRS if you can follow up w/ Rhino to the face? Especially if you're 2-for->2'ing your opponent. Same goes for Dryad Arbor, by the way. They serve to grind some value and buy you some time, nothing more.

Navsi
02-02-2017, 03:33 AM
I still don't think we can reasonably run Sigarda and Hymn in the same deck without sacrificing some reliability, but if you guys are comfortable with that then go right ahead.

Hymn and Liliana take up a lot of slots and don't help the Zenith plan. What creature package do you think goes in?

- Explorers
- Deathrite
- Scavenging Ooze
- Witness
- Tracker
- Meren?
- Rhino?
- Big Finisher

Not sure how many slots we'll have available. Meren seems good with Liliana, but I don't know if she'll have good enough targets available.

Gheizen64
02-02-2017, 03:37 AM
I saw a twitch stream playing this list yesterday, and absolutely loved it. Emrakul the Promised End felt such an house. Consistently ending the game at 6-7 mana even in the face of counters, and if she resolves, it's really hard to remove her with pro-instant meaning only a topdecked sorcery or an instant speed edict can remove her. A Walker fit shell seemed perfect for her.

This was the list IIRC:


//Main
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Baleful Strix
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Thoughtseize
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Nissa, Vital Force
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Ponder
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Thragtusk

2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs

After playing it a bit, i don't see how you can go back from playing 4 Ancestral recalls. It make lists with so many intertwined pieces like Nic-fit so much better.

Navsi
02-02-2017, 03:46 AM
@Arianrhod have you made any updates to your GBC Eldrazi Fit build? Emrakul might be pretty nice there.

Edit:


After playing it a bit, i don't see how you can go back from playing 4 Ancestral recalls. It make lists with so many intertwined pieces like Nic-fit so much better.

I've never liked Brainstorm in Nic Fit much. It feels really strong because we have so many shuffling effects, but I'm not sure if that's necessarily enough.

The problem I've always had with it is that there are very few cards in the deck we are happy to put back and shuffle away like other Brainstorm decks do. We don't have anywhere near as much of a hard cap on useful lands, and we aren't necessarily happy to shuffle away that fifth land another Legacy deck might not need. We run much fewer reactive/situational cards than other decks, so there aren't any useless lategame cards like Daze to ship away. Basically the only cards we aren't interested in drawing in the mid/late game are Veterans and Therapies, unless we're against a deck where removal isn't relevant. Most of our cards are also relevant in duplicates, unlike counterbalances / walkers in miracles or redundant combo pieces. Brainstorm seems a lot better in Pod lists where you have more silver bullets you don't necessarily need in a matchup and extra Birthing Pods which aren't needed. In a standard BUG goodstuff / planeswalkers list it's hardly ever Ancestral Recall because we don't have as many redundant bits to shuffle away. If I was looking for that sort of effect, I'd probably lean towards Painful Truths.

rubblekill
02-02-2017, 04:30 AM
I still don't think we can reasonably run Sigarda and Hymn in the same deck without sacrificing some reliability, but if you guys are comfortable with that then go right ahead.

Hymn and Liliana take up a lot of slots and don't help the Zenith plan. What creature package do you think goes in?

- Explorers
- Deathrite
- Scavenging Ooze
- Witness
- Tracker
- Meren?
- Rhino?
- Big Finisher

Not sure how many slots we'll have available. Meren seems good with Liliana, but I don't know if she'll have good enough targets available.

I don't think I would play rhino alongside lili and hymn, both for mana reasons and because rhino doesn't fit in a lotv deck in my opinion.
I'd play 2-3 trackers, maybe a finks due to lack of rhino? Then a thragtusk for the necessary life gain. Another slot could be prime time to have time to stall smashers and grind miracles.
The best non green win condition is grave Titan imo, but not everyone loves to play non gsz finishers.
But I wouldn't dislike a pw gb list that can gain infinite value and pressure, featuring liliana nissa and garruk. Then gsz would only represent ramp, gy hate and life gain, but not the game ending 5-6 mana bomb. The core of the creature package would be tracker. The guy could theoretically break the liliana simmetry in a slow and grindy way but that requires actual testing.
If I had 240€ I'd test the list online because it seems very powerful and fun to me. Liliana is not exactly cheap though.

If we don't want to play the very strong pw package we could have fun with a empath package (newmrakul, gurmag/tomb stalker, grave Titan) but, while fun, I don't think it is more powerful and faster than slamming liliana into nissa/garruk.
The gb list I have in mind is not a SE type of list, but has a lower number of 4-5-6 cmc bomb. Liliana is a bomb herself, and the only one good against both combo control and midrange.

Navsi
02-02-2017, 04:58 AM
If we don't want to play the very strong pw package we could have fun with a empath package (newmrakul, gurmag/tomb stalker, grave Titan) but, while fun, I don't think it is more powerful and faster than slamming liliana into nissa/garruk.
The gb list I have in mind is not a SE type of list, but has a lower number of 4-5-6 cmc bomb. Liliana is a bomb herself, and the only one good against both combo control and midrange.

I'd say Nissa VF is close, though she's only passable against combo (applies pressure, but is expensive) she's a house against the others. Newmrakul is great against all three but hard to cast.

I think it's possible to run an Empath package alongside the planeswalkers. Being able to tutor Emrakul is seriously strong.

4 vet (or swap one for deathrite)
1 yardhate (ooze/drs)
1 witness
1-2 tracker
1 empath
1 emrakul PE
1 grave titan
1 discount fatty (gurmag, tombstalker, tasigur or distended mindbender)

4 zenith
4 therapy
3 hymn
3 deed
2 decay
2 push

3 lili veil
2 nissa vf
1 garruk r

3 top

22 lands

Need to fit a thragtusk in somewhere, but otherwise seems like it'd be reasonably solid.

rubblekill
02-02-2017, 05:25 AM
I agree with all this, Navsi.
This is pretty much what I had in mind regarding the empath list.
A more controlling approach that doesn't play empath would be +2 decay +1 tracker. A tusk is needed anyways because we don't play rhino.
I can only imagine the satisfying feeling of playing a clean mana base.

Navsi
02-02-2017, 05:35 AM
I agree with all this, Navsi.
This is pretty much what I had in mind regarding the empath list.
A more controlling approach that doesn't play empath would be +2 decay +1 tracker. A tusk is needed anyways because we don't play rhino.
I can only imagine the satisfying feeling of playing a clean mana base.

I'm not sure if a straight GB mana base is even better than a three colour one. You want a load of fetchlands for Tracker anyway.

4 Bayou
8 Fetch
2 Tower
4 Forest
4 Swamp

I'd be tempted to splash red, to be honest - maybe run Groves and swap Push for Punishing Fire, to enable Lili further, and it lets us run Blood Moon out of the sideboard which improves a lot of our bad matchups.

rubblekill
02-02-2017, 05:45 AM
I'm not sure if a straight GB mana base is even better than a three colour one. You want a load of fetchlands for Tracker anyway.

4 Bayou
8 Fetch
2 Tower
4 Forest
4 Swamp

I'd be tempted to splash red, to be honest - maybe run Groves and swap Push for Punishing Fire, to enable Lili further, and it lets us run Blood Moon out of the sideboard which improves a lot of our bad matchups.

I dislike grove so much. Ruins the mana base and in a world full of eldrazi is a worse card. But that's only my personal opinion.
A red splash for me, not mentioning sideboard options would be for 4 and/or 6 mana Chandra, which could replace garruk.

Echelon
02-02-2017, 05:55 AM
I dislike grove so much. Ruins the mana base and in a world full of eldrazi is a worse card. But that's only my personal opinion.

It seems you dislike Punishing Fire, mostly. Which I can get behind.

Navsi
02-02-2017, 05:55 AM
I dislike grove so much. Ruins the mana base and in a world full of eldrazi is a worse card. But that's only my personal opinion.
A red splash for me, not mentioning sideboard options would be for 4 and/or 6 mana Chandra, which could replace garruk.

If Eldrazi are still around in your meta I suppose that's reasonable, but splashing red is probably worth it in the Eldrazi matchup for Blood Moon, still.

I don't think we can run any double-red cards in the deck without cutting Hymn to Tourach. If anything, I'd run Arlinn Kord over Garruk.

I think we can get a workable manabase that includes a couple Groves and still has 16 black sources and a Tower.

8 Fetchland
4 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower

16B (+Tower)
17G
12R

5 basics is a bit on the low side, but otherwise seems okay. Could easily drop a Bayou for a fourth Swamp, it's not like 16 green sources is low.

If you don't like Punishing Fire, I think the red splash is still worth it just for Blood Moon. A single Taiga or Badlands could probably do the job, then - not sure if there's anything else screaming to go in the deck.

rubblekill
02-02-2017, 06:08 AM
It seems you dislike Punishing Fire, mostly. Which I can get behind.

It's hard to like other form of removal when you are switching from the best one (path). My main attraction to bug and GB is push, as a replacement to path.

On a side note, I have been really liking to the slaughter in the side. Playing 2 at the moment, and they make me feel somewhat safe against jace. 3cmc is nice vs CB.

Ulysse95
02-02-2017, 06:49 PM
Hi buddies !

It's been a long time since I was moving into my new flat.

-Lately, I did a top 8 undefeated on a EW trial (35 players) with a sneak fit list (5 rounds, ID on the last one). Then I lost on quarter against a big maverick with an obvious lack of luck. But life is life :)

I ran against infect, d&t drazi, food chain and some other agro/tempo deck that I don't remember.


-And then I ran undefeated on an fnm (18 players) with Nyx fit (4 rounds, true draw on the last one).

I ran against 2 delver lists (grixis and RUG), a bant blade and final against Ur control (countertop). But did side mistakes on the last one.

My lists:

Sneak:

1 [R] Badlands
1 [R] Bayou
1 [R] Taiga
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
2 [US] Phyrexian Tower
2 [UNH] Swamp
3 [UNH] Forest
3 [UNH] Mountain
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [] Wooded Foothills
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [] Eternal Witness
1 [] Inferno Titan
1 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [M13] Thragtusk
1 [] Woodland Bellower
2 [CMD] Fierce Empath
2 [] Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 [] Veteran Explorer
1 [] Nissa, Vital Force
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [] Aid from the Cowl (wasn't playable yet, but don't remember what it was)
3 [] Pernicious Deed
4 [US] Sneak Attack
1 [] Beast Within
2 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
2 [THS] Thoughtseize
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 2 [RTR] Slaughter Games
SB: 3 [] Inquisition of Kozilek
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 [] Summoner's trap
SB: 1 [] Reclamation Sage
SB: 3 [US] Carpet of Flowers

But I was disapointed by summoner's trap. So 1 more SG and 1 Leovold in SB


Nyx Fist:

1 [R] Bayou
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [R] Savannah
1 [R] Scrubland
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
2 [UNH] Swamp
3 [UNH] Forest
3 [US] Phyrexian Tower
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [] Windswept Heath
1 [] Doomwake Giant
1 [] Eternal Witness
1 [JOU] Nyx Weaver
3 [] Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 [UD] Academy Rector
4 [] Veteran Explorer
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [] Aid from the Cowl
1 [LG] Living Plane
1 [NE] Parallax Wave
2 [] Dead Weight
2 [] Starfield of Nyx
3 [] Pernicious Deed
3 [IN] Sterling Grove
2 [] Inquisition of Kozilek
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 [BNG] Spirit of the Labyrinth
SB: 1 [TE] Humility
SB: 2 [] Lost Legacy
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 [ISD] Curse of Death's Hold
SB: 1 [PLC] Seal of Primordium

For now, I run Aid from the cowl over Nissa, VF. Needs more tests. Sometimes, it's overwhelming, sometimes you prey for just draw a lotery ticket like fetch.

Navsi, I saw you "stealing" my list for the primer ;) but would be nice to tchat on list choices together :)
I think I will end by accept those two decay over dead weight on the end.
How goes Neither void so far?
I love the Nyx Weaver. I made a long time before give it a try, but I don't want to go back since.

Navsi
02-03-2017, 03:30 AM
Nyx Fist:

1 [R] Bayou
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [R] Savannah
1 [R] Scrubland
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
2 [UNH] Swamp
3 [UNH] Forest
3 [US] Phyrexian Tower
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [] Windswept Heath
1 [] Doomwake Giant
1 [] Eternal Witness
1 [JOU] Nyx Weaver
3 [] Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 [UD] Academy Rector
4 [] Veteran Explorer
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [] Aid from the Cowl
1 [LG] Living Plane
1 [NE] Parallax Wave
2 [] Dead Weight
2 [] Starfield of Nyx
3 [] Pernicious Deed
3 [IN] Sterling Grove
2 [] Inquisition of Kozilek
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 [BNG] Spirit of the Labyrinth
SB: 1 [TE] Humility
SB: 2 [] Lost Legacy
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 [ISD] Curse of Death's Hold
SB: 1 [PLC] Seal of Primordium

For now, I run Aid from the cowl over Nissa, VF. Needs more tests. Sometimes, it's overwhelming, sometimes you prey for just draw a lotery ticket like fetch.

Navsi, I saw you "stealing" my list for the primer ;) but would be nice to tchat on list choices together :)
I think I will end by accept those two decay over dead weight on the end.
How goes Neither void so far?
I love the Nyx Weaver. I made a long time before give it a try, but I don't want to go back since.

I never liked Dead Weight. If we're using a tutor for removal we'd pretty much always prefer to get Deed, Faith's Fetters or similar, so being an enchantment doesn't really help us very often. Decay can be cast through Nether Void / Dovescape and has better reliability against blue decks.

I liked Aid from the Cowl but I actually kept Nissa in and dropped the second Starfield instead. They fulfill very similar roles as value engines (both in card advantage and cheating on mana) and imo Nissa is important to us for her ability to kill planeswalkers and apply a fast clock.

I looked at Nyx Weaver but wasn't ever impressed - mainly because it exiles itself so we can't recur it. If we want to tutor up Recursion we can just get Starfield, and if we want to Zenith up recursion we can just get Eternal Witness.

Ulysse95
02-03-2017, 07:21 PM
I never liked Dead Weight. If we're using a tutor for removal we'd pretty much always prefer to get Deed, Faith's Fetters or similar, so being an enchantment doesn't really help us very often. Decay can be cast through Nether Void / Dovescape and has better reliability against blue decks.

I liked Aid from the Cowl but I actually kept Nissa in and dropped the second Starfield instead. They fulfill very similar roles as value engines (both in card advantage and cheating on mana) and imo Nissa is important to us for her ability to kill planeswalkers and apply a fast clock.

I looked at Nyx Weaver but wasn't ever impressed - mainly because it exiles itself so we can't recur it. If we want to tutor up Recursion we can just get Starfield, and if we want to Zenith up recursion we can just get Eternal Witness.

Yeah, it was the second option. I really like Nissa too.

In fact, I rarely use EW option from weaver. For me it's:
-a reach creature (blocks kill delver, chump blocks Marith),
-recurring with starfield and shroud with sterling
-grave feeder for starfield
-library digging with a sdt


I will go to a big event tomorrow. Still uncertain on the list I will play ^^'

Navsi
02-04-2017, 07:31 AM
Yeah, it was the second option. I really like Nissa too.

In fact, I rarely use EW option from weaver. For me it's:
-a reach creature (blocks kill delver, chump blocks Marith),
-recurring with starfield and shroud with sterling
-grave feeder for starfield
-library digging with a sdt


I will go to a big event tomorrow. Still uncertain on the list I will play ^^'

I guess that makes sense. It just seems pretty low impact as just a 2/3 dude with reach that mills us. Doesn't feel like a particularly powerful deck slot - if we want flyers I'd rather just play Bitterblossom.

Alternatively if you want something that flies, is recurrable with starfield, stabilizes against Delver and clears out the top of your library, maybe give Lightform a test? Sacred Mesa might be ok too. I don't think any of them are really necessary when we have Parallax Wave though.

Hmmm_Really?
02-04-2017, 11:39 AM
I'm playing Mitchell's BUG Atraxa list (almost) at my LGS and we regularly pull in 20-30 diverse Legacy players every FNM. Non-mentor Miracles is quite popular and it's like hitting a brick wall. (Otherwise, loving the deck... thank you!) The question is, are my Miracles sideboarding assumptions wrong?

For reference, my 61/15:


4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Vindicate
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Kaya, Ghost Assassin
2 Nissa, Vital Force

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

//Sideboard
3 Thoughtseize
3 Lost Legacy
3 Surgical Extraction
1 To the Slaughter
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion

Here are my assumptions and thought process:

1) Early disruption of Top/CB is the vital objective in the early game, so I keep in Cabal Therapy and bring in 3x Thoughtseize.

2) Always, always, always mulligan to get at least Therapy or T'seize in opening hand.

3) If Therapy, blind name Top on the play, Counterbalance on the draw.

4) Vets are just as much an advantage to the Miracles player, so they come out in G2

5) Bring in 1x Qasali PM for Counterbalance (but gets countered in mid/late game if they have Top/CB)

6) Bring in 1x Golgari Charm for CB (but gets countered in mid/late game if they have Top/CB)

7) Bring in 3x Lost Legacy for Jace and Angels

8) Bring in 1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion comes in to pressure Jace with little dudes.

9) Bring in 1x To the Slaughter for Jace.

10) I don't bring in Toxic Deluge for Angels. Maybe it's my observational bias but it seems to gets countered. Every. Single. Time.

11) I don't bring in Gaddock Teeg because the deck is low on creatures and he's a lightning rod for their 8x Swords (assuming Snapcaster).

12) I don't bring in Surgicals. Perhaps they will help with StP/Snap or any good stuff snagged by T'seize?

13) So, after all that, I take out 10 cards: -4 Vets, -1 Atraxa, -2 Rhino, -1 Kaya, -1 Meren and -1 PtE.

14) I keep these in but.... :

Ooze and DRS to try to snag Snapcaster targets.
Meren and EWit in an attempt to force card advantage but, again, perhaps my logic is flawed due to the small number of StP/Terminus targets?
Deeds for tokens.
2x PtE.

15) Should I consider Flusterstorm or Invasive Surgery to help with early disruption? Surgicals for PtE?

Any and all suggestions, observations, criticisms and/or insults gladly accepted!

oo

Navsi
02-04-2017, 12:14 PM
1) Early disruption of Top/CB is the vital objective in the early game, so I keep in Cabal Therapy and bring in 3x Thoughtseize.

2) Always, always, always mulligan to get at least Therapy or T'seize in opening hand.

3) If Therapy, blind name Top on the play, Counterbalance on the draw.

4) Vets are just as much an advantage to the Miracles player, so they come out in G2

5) Bring in 1x Qasali PM for Counterbalance (but gets countered in mid/late game if they have Top/CB)

6) Bring in 1x Golgari Charm for CB (but gets countered in mid/late game if they have Top/CB)

7) Bring in 3x Lost Legacy for Jace and Angels

8) Bring in 1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion comes in to pressure Jace with little dudes.

9) Bring in 1x To the Slaughter for Jace.

10) I don't bring in Toxic Deluge for Angels. Maybe it's my observational bias but it seems to gets countered. Every. Single. Time.

11) I don't bring in Gaddock Teeg because the deck is low on creatures and he's a lightning rod for their 8x Swords (assuming Snapcaster).

12) I don't bring in Surgicals. Perhaps they will help with StP/Snap or any good stuff snagged by T'seize?

13) So, after all that, I take out 10 cards: -4 Vets, -1 Atraxa, -2 Rhino, -1 Kaya, -1 Meren and -1 PtE.

14) I keep these in but.... :

Ooze and DRS to try to snag Snapcaster targets.
Meren and EWit in an attempt to force card advantage but, again, perhaps my logic is flawed due to the small number of StP/Terminus targets?
Deeds for tokens.
2x PtE.

15) Should I consider Flusterstorm or Invasive Surgery to help with early disruption? Surgicals for PtE?

Any and all suggestions, observations, criticisms and/or insults gladly accepted!

oo

Top/CB isn't as big an issue as you imply. Most of our good ways of ending the game are at mana costs where it's hard to counterbalance anyway, and we also have Green Sun's Zenith to get around it, and Abrupt Decay / Deed to kill it once it is in play. Therapy / Thoughtseize is also pretty bad just because Miracles is so good at playing off the top of their deck with Tops etc.

Don't take out Kaya, she's amazing in the matchup.
I'd say keep the Rhinos, they at least apply pressure and can drain them out after they stabilize.
If they aren't playing Mentor, I'd drop the Paths 100%.

Mana advantage is very important in a matchup where both players run SDT. I'd say you want Carpet of Flowers in your sideboard to replace Veterans.

Scavenging ooze you can cut, very few creatures will be hitting the yard.

I'd say cards you definitely want to cut:

3-4 Veteran Explorer
1 Meren
1 Atraxa
3 PTE
As many CT as you can swap for good cards

Cards you want to bring in:
3 Lost Legacy
1 To the Slaughter
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
0-1 Qasali Pridemage (it's ok, but not amazing)
Carpet of Flowers

I'd personally drop one Thoughtseize and a Toxic Deluge for two Carpet of Flowers. Alternatively you could keep one of those in the side, and move QPM to the maindeck (where it's fine) for something.

Ulysse95
02-04-2017, 02:18 PM
I guess that makes sense. It just seems pretty low impact as just a 2/3 dude with reach that mills us. Doesn't feel like a particularly powerful deck slot - if we want flyers I'd rather just play Bitterblossom.

Alternatively if you want something that flies, is recurrable with starfield, stabilizes against Delver and clears out the top of your library, maybe give Lightform a test? Sacred Mesa might be ok too. I don't think any of them are really necessary when we have Parallax Wave though.

Weaver is polyvalent and zenithable, which make it a usefull tool in the box.
Give it a just a try ;)

battousai555
02-04-2017, 02:54 PM
This is probably a really dumb question, but should we name Terminus or STP with our first resolved Lost Legacy against Miracles? I just recently picked up the deck and have no experience against Miracles yet. I'm guessing Terminus because it's a bonkers card, but STP doesn't sound bad either because they have virtually 8 copies when Snapcasters are taken into account.

square_two
02-04-2017, 03:07 PM
This is probably a really dumb question, but should we name Terminus or STP with our first resolved Lost Legacy against Miracles? I just recently picked up the deck and have no experience against Miracles yet. I'm guessing Terminus because it's a bonkers card, but STP doesn't sound bad either because they have virtually 8 copies when Snapcasters are taken into account.

I usually name Jace first, he's one of the biggest threats that Miracles has and he severely improves their odds of winning if he lands. Lot of lists have been cutting down on Entreats lately.

If they are on the full playset of Mentor plan, which also has been picked up by some people, you need to recognize that in game one as best you can, and then name Mentor.

Navsi
02-04-2017, 03:27 PM
I usually name Jace first, he's one of the biggest threats that Miracles has and he severely improves their odds of winning if he lands. Lot of lists have been cutting down on Entreats lately.

If they are on the full playset of Mentor plan, which also has been picked up by some people, you need to recognize that in game one as best you can, and then name Mentor.

If I realise they aren't running Mentor, I usually name Entreat, just because it makes things so much safer when you know they can't oneshot you out of nowhere if you don't have a Deed sitting on board. Naming Terminus then jamming Sigarda is usually a pretty good plan though.

mstephenson
02-04-2017, 10:05 PM
Snip
[/cards]

Here are my assumptions and thought process:

1) Early disruption of Top/CB is the vital objective in the early game, so I keep in Cabal Therapy and bring in 3x Thoughtseize.

2) Always, always, always mulligan to get at least Therapy or T'seize in opening hand.

3) If Therapy, blind name Top on the play, Counterbalance on the draw.

4) Vets are just as much an advantage to the Miracles player, so they come out in G2

5) Bring in 1x Qasali PM for Counterbalance (but gets countered in mid/late game if they have Top/CB)

6) Bring in 1x Golgari Charm for CB (but gets countered in mid/late game if they have Top/CB)

7) Bring in 3x Lost Legacy for Jace and Angels

8) Bring in 1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion comes in to pressure Jace with little dudes.

9) Bring in 1x To the Slaughter for Jace.

10) I don't bring in Toxic Deluge for Angels. Maybe it's my observational bias but it seems to gets countered. Every. Single. Time.

11) I don't bring in Gaddock Teeg because the deck is low on creatures and he's a lightning rod for their 8x Swords (assuming Snapcaster).

12) I don't bring in Surgicals. Perhaps they will help with StP/Snap or any good stuff snagged by T'seize?

13) So, after all that, I take out 10 cards: -4 Vets, -1 Atraxa, -2 Rhino, -1 Kaya, -1 Meren and -1 PtE.

14) I keep these in but.... :

Ooze and DRS to try to snag Snapcaster targets.
Meren and EWit in an attempt to force card advantage but, again, perhaps my logic is flawed due to the small number of StP/Terminus targets?
Deeds for tokens.
2x PtE.

15) Should I consider Flusterstorm or Invasive Surgery to help with early disruption? Surgicals for PtE?

Any and all suggestions, observations, criticisms and/or insults gladly accepted!

oo

Glad you like the list!

What I would do with your list against non-mentor miracles (which I found to be a much harder matchup) is
-4 vet
-4 Cabal
-1 Atraxa
-1 Meren

+1 Elspeth
+1 Qasali
+1 To the Slaughter
+3 Thoughtseize
+3 Legacy
+1 ???(not really sure as deluge is really medium against non mentor but can still get angels occasionally and surgical is really bad against miracles)

So discard in general is really bad against miracles but thoughtseize is just better than therapy against them and we have a lot of really bad cards.

Atraxa and meren both get abused by karakas so they come out and you can not be shooting one with a vindicate as it is usually needed to kill jace.

I am not sure why you would want to take kaya out against miracles because against the non mentor version she usually draws a million cards and takes over the game and I would leave in the Rhinos because chaining rhinos together is an actual game plan, even if it is not the first one.

I find that the match up is usually a gridfest revolving around the planeswalkers both players have, which is why legacy naming jace is actually a plan in this matchup as you can answer all of their snaps/clique/angels.

Echelon
02-06-2017, 01:20 AM
Yup, with the first Lost Legacy just name Jace. After that probably Entreat, and after that you can start to think about winning.

Brael
02-06-2017, 01:35 PM
Yup, with the first Lost Legacy just name Jace. After that probably Entreat, and after that you can start to think about winning.

I'm not so sure I agree with this. If you have 3 creatures on the board Jace can't really stabilize them unless they have Terminus. Terminus is the card that's a threat because it's what prevents you from going wide. If you take out their board wipes you not only significantly weaken Top but you make cards like Jace much worse. Furthermore, they might keep Jace in hand, but you can almost guarantee all their Terminus will be in their library so you don't draw them any cards (which could be bad if your Lost Legacy sets up a Miracle for them).

square_two
02-06-2017, 01:46 PM
Depends on what version you are playing, as well. Sneak fit cares less about both stp and terminus, more about Jace. Mainly because once you land a sneak attack, there are a lot of ways to tutor up emrakul or primetime, and lot of creatures gain value upon etb. I'd assume the same for starfield since creature removal does so little to that version. If you are winning by jamming rhinos then things definitely change.

EpicLevelCommoner
02-06-2017, 09:53 PM
Hi everybody! I'm back (kinda; priority is life then Modern then Legacy)!

So I'm thinking of potential power-plays with Renegade Rallier, Veteran Explorer, and Cabal Therapy on turn 2, but I'm not sure how viable that interaction actually is.

For example, would T1 G source into Vet, T2 B source into Therapy into Therapy FB into Vet Trigger for W and G sources into Rallier into fetchland be a reasonable play to make? That would be at least 5 mana by Turn 3, with potentially more ramp/disruption occuring with the one mana from the fetch on T2.

Brael
02-06-2017, 10:30 PM
Hi everybody! I'm back (kinda; priority is life then Modern then Legacy)!

So I'm thinking of potential power-plays with Renegade Rallier, Veteran Explorer, and Cabal Therapy on turn 2, but I'm not sure how viable that interaction actually is.

For example, would T1 G source into Vet, T2 B source into Therapy into Therapy FB into Vet Trigger for W and G sources into Rallier into fetchland be a reasonable play to make? That would be at least 5 mana by Turn 3, with potentially more ramp/disruption occuring with the one mana from the fetch on T2.

5 mana by T3 is ok but it's a bit slow, our Phyrexian Tower openings already allow for 5 mana on T2.
T1 Land, Explorer
T2 Tower, sac Explorer. That generates 3BB.

Crop Rotation also works in this opening because you go
T1 Land, Explorer
T2 Land, Crop Rotation, get Tower, sac Explorer.

Alternatively, you can go
T1 Land, GSZ for Dryad Arbor
T2 Tower (or Rotation into Tower)

This generates 1BBG on T2.

Megadeus
02-07-2017, 10:17 AM
Does anyone run Smallpox as a nice way to remove an opposing DRS/Delver/True Name as well as sac an explorer? I always liked the BG lists that ran 2-3 of them. I could see it still being pretty good

square_two
02-07-2017, 10:41 AM
Does anyone run Smallpox as a nice way to remove an opposing DRS/Delver/True Name as well as sac an explorer? I always liked the BG lists that ran 2-3 of them. I could see it still being pretty good

Why wouldn't you just use Innocent Blood? It can nicely take out DRS on turn 1 if you are on the draw.

I would imagine that often enough we just don't have the density of land destruction/wasteland for Smallpox to really be helpful. If we get screwed without a Vet early on, then we probably don't want to cast Smallpox. Even if we are fine, most decks are going to be able to cope with the rare loss. Especially if they profit at all from Vet.

Maybe if you are experimenting with Destructive Flow :cool:
Huntmaster would also work nicely with Smallpox since you can sac the token and benefit from the opp losing resources to do things.

Edict effects in general are pretty nice for us - wipe what board you can with Deed, then take out the pesky Angler/whatever that is left behind.

Someone could also experiment with Hulk combo, although I think it suffers from all the graveyard hate at the moment. Sneak Fit doesn't suffer that weakness and can be very quick.

gth842s
02-07-2017, 12:41 PM
Depends on what version you are playing, as well. Sneak fit cares less about both stp and terminus, more about Jace. Mainly because once you land a sneak attack, there are a lot of ways to tutor up emrakul or primetime, and lot of creatures gain value upon etb. I'd assume the same for starfield since creature removal does so little to that version. If you are winning by jamming rhinos then things definitely change.

^^ This. Also depends on what version of Miracles you're against, and your play style. I personally would name Entreat or Mentor if I knew what build my opponent was on. If I don't know, then it gets more complicated:

If I'm running Sneak, it depends on if I have a Sneak Attack either resolved or in hand and what discard I have access to. I'd probably try to eliminate SDT if they haven't resolved one, or FoW if I have a Sneak to resolve, or Terminus / Blind attempt at snatching win-cons. Especially if you run P-Fires, Jace just isn't that scary for Sneak.

If I'm on a Junk or Junk-ish build, I'd still name win-con if I know what they're on. If not, I'd go for SDT if they haven't resolved one yet or I'd hit Terminus or Jace depending on my hand.

EpicLevelCommoner
02-07-2017, 09:58 PM
5 mana by T3 is ok but it's a bit slow, our Phyrexian Tower openings already allow for 5 mana on T2.
T1 Land, Explorer
T2 Tower, sac Explorer. That generates 3BB.

Crop Rotation also works in this opening because you go
T1 Land, Explorer
T2 Land, Crop Rotation, get Tower, sac Explorer.

Alternatively, you can go
T1 Land, GSZ for Dryad Arbor
T2 Tower (or Rotation into Tower)

This generates 1BBG on T2.

Gotcha ... wait, Crop Rotation is a viable option now? . . . that's actually pretty good with Rallier.

T1 G Source, Vet
T2 P.Tower-->Vet Trigger-->G Source and W Source (GGBBW Available)-->Crop Rotation (P.Tower-->V.Stronghold)-->Rallier (P.Tower)

Five mana if you need a X = 2 Deed, or the Two Towers synergy assembled.

Echelon
02-08-2017, 02:38 AM
I don't think Rallier is something we particularly care for. The most important cheap cards for us are our spells (CT/PtE/StP/AD), our most important permanents cost >2. Rallier help you with neither.

MDHackbert
02-08-2017, 05:55 AM
https://www.twitch.tv/mdhackbert

I did some streaming tonight of SneakFit. I played through a League. There is no audio except for the music that didn't get cut out.
I won Rd 1 against Miracles with both of us nearly timing out.
I then proceeded to lose 4 in a row against Elves, Bug Delver, Burn, and another Miracles.
I'm sure there were loads of misplays and bad lines. I never claimed to be an expert. :-)

If you watch, I hope you find it entertaining.

Brael
02-08-2017, 09:17 AM
Gotcha ... wait, Crop Rotation is a viable option now? . . . that's actually pretty good with Rallier.


It's something a few of us have been trying. It's not the best card ever but it's still pretty good. It works great in conjunction with Cabal Therapy to clear the way to cast it.


I don't think Rallier is something we particularly care for. The most important cheap cards for us are our spells (CT/PtE/StP/AD), our most important permanents cost >2. Rallier help you with neither.

Agreed, I don't think the card does anything that we can't already do with Eternal Witness outside of a Pod list.

amppyou
02-08-2017, 10:46 AM
Played 3 sloppy rounds yesterday. 2-1, lost to a 4 color cascade deck that was going bananas using Library, Bloodbraid Elf, & Shardless.

Second week in a row that I've lost to the guy on Cascade. Both weeks he's been able to close out the game on the back of a Creeing Tar Pit. I misplayed a bunch last night, so in the end it's my fault that I was in that position.

I was able to rattle off a win vs Omnitell. G1 I got to Show & Tell in a Grave Titan. G2 Kambal was just enough thanks to his Ancient Tombs.

Arianrhod
02-08-2017, 10:57 AM
https://www.twitch.tv/mdhackbert

I did some streaming tonight of SneakFit. I played through a League. There is no audio except for the music that didn't get cut out.
I won Rd 1 against Miracles with both of us nearly timing out.
I then proceeded to lose 4 in a row against Elves, Bug Delver, Burn, and another Miracles.
I'm sure there were loads of misplays and bad lines. I never claimed to be an expert. :-)

If you watch, I hope you find it entertaining.

Watched through quickly and typed up some thoughts for you. Hope they help!

elves:

Good reason to run pyroclasm (also delver). Definitely board in Thoughtseize, espeically on the play. OK to shave a Top vs Elves. Your goal vs any combo deck is to become a combo/control deck with all combo cards in the deck and all disruption cards in the deck.

Nothing you could've done g1 -- your draw just lined up poorly vs his, and your hand wasn't one that I would've mulled.

If you think you're going to swing with Vet on a given turn, always do that first and then do your things in main 2. In game two, you Zenith for Deathrite before swinging. If you swing and he blocks, you can instead Z@3 or play Deed with 1 mana open, both of which are better plays.

Game two you got pretty mana flooded -- personally I think I would've mulled your opening hand, but that doesn't change that you could've benefited from some better draw steps.

Vs BUG Delver:

Game 1. I like leading with Top, and you're fine with Explorer getting Dazed there. No land on top 3 is unfortunate. Agree with running out Zenith@1 -- you can expect it to get countered but you really need that shuffle, so the upside of it resolving is large enough to gamble it.

The turn you drew the Verdant, I would've fetched into Therapy on Gurmag Angler or Delver. Not sure why he wasted Volrath's, but...sure? Don't like the basic Swamp fetch. He used one Wasteland already and you can't be afraid of a second. Sometimes you just get double Wasted out of the game and it sucks, but with your hand's texture, it's not reasonable to play around the possibility of the second.

You're topping on upkeep too much. You also definitely should've taken the Thragtusk, not the third Therapy. Also, at the point at which you took said Therapy, you should've led with Therapy on Fatal Push and then played Explorer. It still probably would've gotten Decayed, but you didn't know about that.

I'd have played Thrag instead of Pulse. You need board presence -- if he trades, you're left with a 3/3 on open board, if he doesn't, you pulse next turn and swing in for 5 (well, before the TNN, anyway). Should name Decay on the flashback Therapy instead of Daze. If you draw something you're worried about him having Force for, you have another two Therapies in the graveyard. Decay hits a lot more relevant cards by itself than Daze does.

No reason to not play the Rec Sage the turn you drew the Sneak Attack. You want to sac it to Therapy to clear the way for Sneak next turn, so pay the mana forward now.

The fetch was bad. It put him from a 2-turn clock to a 1-turn clock. The fringe % of drawing a combo piece isn't worth losing another draw step, especially when you were guaranteed to resolve Sneak Attack due to the sandbagged Therapies.

I don't like boarding in the Golgari Charms. He doesn't have Young Pyro, so not sure what you're trying to hit. TNN, I guess? That seems worse than leaving the third Deed in. Thoughtseize and Carpet of Flowers are both much more relevant, and Surgical is always fine vs Delver if you have more things you want to board out (note that I've had problems finding room for Surgicals vs Delver as well, something that I'm still considering / looking into). You want to consider Surgical vs Delver because information is very important in the matchup, and Surgical gives you info while removing something that's problematic, making Gurmag cost more and/or countering Deathrite Shaman activations, and also gaining fringe value at hitting with Cabal Therapy vs Brainstorm -- lots of little things that add up nicely.

Losing the Sneak to Hymn is unfortunate odds. I probably would've just jammed an Empath the turn previous for a Bellower or a Titan. Wouldn't have really mattered because of the second Hymn, but you would've had another 1/1 at least.

That's a really aggressive Volrath's. You'll get more opportunities to get an Empath back later -- you need draw steps right now. It's not the worst thing I've ever seen, but it's not what I would've done. At least see what you draw and then evaluate -- a problem that I've noticed with your play in general is that you're trying to force being too proactive and as a result you're not being proactive enough. You lose a lot of mana advantage and tempo advantage by upkeeping instead of end-stepping. It shifts your entire game tempo into an awkward momentum which tends to line up poorly vs a lot of decks. There are certainly times where it's correct to upkeep do things, but not as much as you're currently doing (or from what I'm seeing in this video anyway)

Burn:

You're getting super punished for not winning the die roll. Sometimes that happens.

Don't like the Punishing Fire at all. You want to punish the Goblin Guide and then untap into Pulse on Swiftspears. If he has mono-gas in hand you're dead anyway.

As it turns out, he has mono-gas in hand and you're dead. Happens.

Board in Thoughtseize!!! If you Thoughtseize a Lightning Bolt, you've just gained 1 life. If you hit a Price of Progress, Fireblast, Goblin Guide, or etc, you gain a lot more than 1. Your /fail case/ is that you gain 1 life by casting it, and it can easily be better.

Why are you boarding out Vets? You're not going to be fast enough to Sneak Attack him without Vet, and you're ill equipped to play the fair game here because you don't have Rhinos. Golgari Charm doesn't do anything -- it kills exactly Sulfuric Vortex, and you already have Rec Sage +4 Zenith +2 Bellower for that.

Example on Thoughtseize: if you drew Thoughtseize instead of Golgari Charm, you would've taken the Lava Spike, let's say. You gain 1 from that exchange, and then 2 more from the Prowess triggers that he wouldn't have gotten. That's a full +3 -- one whole burn spell he doesn't cast!

Oh, he has Fireblast? If you get to take that, you gain +4 instead of +2 from the Charm, and that was a rare time where Charm was good because he had multiple creatures. Usually they only have one creature and a bunch of spells, which makes Charm even worse.

Miracles:

Why are you topping on your upkeep?!?!?

I like burning a Zenith for the Deathrite. Sets up for Sneak or makes him burn a removal spell / counter.

Don't you fucking Top on your upkeep. Don't you do it!

You did it.

If you'd just drawn naturally you would've been able to play Sneak, and he only has 5 in hand...which, if he has Force, then you Zenith for Eternal Witness to get back Sneak.

No reason to not take the Foothills imo. Keep making your land drops -- you can always tap your 2nd Top to draw Empath EoT to do nonsense.

Wait. Why are you Zenithing? I would've definitely played Sneak there, which would've gotten the Force anyway, but that's fine because we have the answer for it.

I would've gotten Inferno with the Empath trigger because then you threaten his Jace on a land drop. Emrakul is pretty far away from happening unless you Top into another Sneak.

Definitely would've EoT Decayed counterbalance before untapping into Thragtusk. No reason to not remove his interaction here. If he has maindeck Mentors (which is unlikely with the card we've seen so far), you have a Deed floating on top of your deck anyway to clean it up.

You definitely try to just win here. He has 1 in hand and if he doesn't have the counter, you win on the spot. You can't really afford to sit around here. There's a fairly large percent of playing this deck that involves slamming wincons and demanding that they have the answer. You win a lot of games because they just flat out don't have it. Sometimes they do, but you can't let the fear rule you.

You tapped badly for the Sneak Attack. You should've left double red mana open so you can Sneak Emrakul, then when he Karakases it, you can re-Sneak it.

This is a good example of why it's correct to not give them infinite time and just slam the Sneak asap and rely on recursion if they have the answer. You gave him so much time that he got to set up another Counterbalance with multiple fetches in play, which allowed him to CB your Sneak (which now he's just going to float the Jace and you're not going to resolve another Sneak without removal, but you're also being pressured by the Jace at this point).

Honestly, at this point, I'd just concede and go to game 2. You need to win two games in ~11 minutes, which is going to be a bit tricky. Not impossible, but tricky. This game is out of your reach at this point.

Punishing Fire is good here! It cleans up Cliques, Mentor poops, and Jaces very well. Therapy is much worse. I'd take out all 4 Therapies to leave in both Punishing Fires and also to bring in the two Surgicals. You want to look at taking out their StP, Forces, and Terminuses with them, because they're going to have to use those cards to stay alive and without them, they have a hard time living.

Again, you definitely slam a Sneak there. You have a backup copy, so you don't care if he has Counterspell. If he doesn't, then hey! Good times. If he has Force, that's even better because you 2-for-1 him and have a backup still.

Yeah, you're giving him way too much time again. Now he has a Mentor in play, so when he Forces he gets value out of it. Would've been much better if he'd burned that Force two turns ago when he didn't have a board presence. You're probably just going to get run over now.

rubblekill
02-08-2017, 11:01 AM
Arian can you post your most recent sneak fit list? I'm gonna try it again this evening, thanks!

Arianrhod
02-08-2017, 11:08 AM
Arian can you post your most recent sneak fit list? I'm gonna try it again this evening, thanks!

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Inferno Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Punishing Fire
2 Abrupt Decay

4 Sneak Attack
3 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Nissa, Vital Force

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills

sb::
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pyroclasm
2 Slaughter Games
1 Tireless Tracker
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 To the Slaughter

Only notable change has been to cut the 2nd Deathrite in favor of the 2nd Nissa because the format has slowed down a little (and Nissa is pretty busted in the deck). You could very easily keep the 2nd Shaman instead of the 2nd Nissa -- it's not clear to me that this change is correct for the overall meta and might just be my local favoring the 2nd Nissa.

rubblekill
02-08-2017, 11:38 AM
Thanks! I'll have some fun with it later

square_two
02-08-2017, 12:07 PM
Watched through quickly and typed up some thoughts for you. Hope they help!

I would seriously reconsider streaming more if I could get such good critique each time. Arianrhod's a beast.

@MDHackbert, I've followed you and will try to tune in if I see that you are streaming. I've heard rumors of a few other Sneak Fitters online.

I haven't played a ton lately but have enjoyed Massacre Wurm in the main. Very convenient against the bug infestation - there are times you really need to kill some number of evasive threats, and the wurm takes out all DRS, TNN, Delver.

MDHackbert
02-08-2017, 12:19 PM
@Arianrhod Thanks for the raw honest feedback. I'll read it again while watching my own vid to line things up. Next time i sneak, I'll look into your list. I built this one before i had Nissas online.

@rubblekill Thanks for the follow! Sorry you came in at the end.

@square_two Thanks for the follow!

I think next stream may be a rhino build.

Sent from mobile.

Arianrhod
02-08-2017, 01:21 PM
I would seriously reconsider streaming more if I could get such good critique each time. Arianrhod's a beast.

@MDHackbert, I've followed you and will try to tune in if I see that you are streaming. I've heard rumors of a few other Sneak Fitters online.

I haven't played a ton lately but have enjoyed Massacre Wurm in the main. Very convenient against the bug infestation - there are times you really need to kill some number of evasive threats, and the wurm takes out all DRS, TNN, Delver.

I can't promise you'd get it every time, but I'm glad to provide thoughts like that when I'm able to. Just give me a vid and I'll go nuts.

We may be entering a world (or have already done so) where Massacre Wurm is better than Inferno Titan. Inferno has done a ton of work for me, but there's an increasingly large number of decks where Sneaking Massacre is a flat kill, as opposed to just a large point swing. Inferno is still better at the fair game, but it may be that the deck is sufficiently tuned to fair decks in the main at this point (or at least mine with 2x Nissa, maindeck Primeval, and Meren as backup plans) that losing a few percentage points in some matchups to pick up a lot in others may be worth it.

Navsi
02-08-2017, 03:18 PM
Played three games with Nyx Fit today.

Game 1: Esper Stoneblade

He loses. He had a Jace active for like six turns, but there's only so many answers for Starfield/Sigarda/Doomwake/etc in a deck, and when he eventually slammed Supreme Verdict and a Vindicate for Starfield, I had Rector into Tower for second Starfield, into Doomwake - Living Plane.

Game 2 - UW Stoneblade
See above, only more so. Stoneblade is such a bye for us. Deed is absurd.

Game 3 - Lands
Lost game 1 to the traditional early Port into Waste into Marit Lage. If you ever get the opportunity, slamming Rector is plan A. After sideboard, it helps to mulligan for sideboard cards. Even if you have Therapy into Zenith into Rector, you'll get Ported and Wasted, lose Therapy to Bog, be unable to sac Veteran and never resolve any of your 4-drops because you didn't mulligan for hate and got fucked because you didn't find a Leyline or Humility.

Lobo
02-08-2017, 04:43 PM
To Ulysse95, Navsi, and other Nyx Fitters: I just wanted to say how appreciative I am for your work on this deck. Since sleeving it up, I've never had more fun playing Legacy, and I've benefited so much from your continued efforts to refine it. Thank you.

I piloted the deck to an abysmal 0-5-1 finish at Eternal Weekend in Columbus, Ohio a few months back. After my first few losses (to Eldrazi, Burn, and Storm), I began to be paired increasingly with other renegade decks I wasn't as sure how to combat, like blue Painter and 12-Post, and this only exacerbated my own frequent mistakes (especially with regard to sideboarding and mulliganing, my Achilles heels). However, I have no doubt as to this deck's power and potential in more capable hands. And I did at least get to live the dream against 12-Post: Humility, into Curse of Death's Hold, into Living Plane. My opponent sheepishly drew cards for a few turns—not because he had any outs, he said, but because he wanted to let the moment linger. What a swell guy.

In recent playtesting, I went 1-5 in games against Grixis Delver (a surprisingly tough match-up, I've found), and 3-0 in games against Infect (where Cabal Therapy and Deed showed up regularly for me). I've noticed a huge difference since including Sigarda as a Zenithable, resilient, game-ending threat. She's also terrific at stabilizing against fliers like Delver or Inkmoth.

As I've learned the deck, I've discovered several interactions you fellas may already know, but which bear repeating:


If we have Starfield and Parallax Wave in play, and Parallax Wave is down to zero counters: at the beginning of our upkeep, both cards will trigger, and we can stack the triggers in the order we like. However, we must pick a target for the Starfield trigger when it is created; we cannot wait to resolve Parallax Wave's trigger before we choose the target for Starfield. Starfield is therefore unable to recur Parallax Wave on the very same turn it goes to the graveyard. This leaves us open to one turn of potential attack from our opponent's creatures.

Living Plane and Nether Void cannot exist on the battlefield simultaneously, since they are both World Enchantments. Whichever enters the battlefield second will send the other to the graveyard.

Nether Void functions as a triggered ability, not an alternate or additional cost (as per Trinisphere or Thalia). This means, in the first place, that we must remember our triggers, including for our own spells, or risk a judge's ire. It also means we can trick our opponents into paying for the triggers, in case they mistake the card for a Thalia effect. When they cast an uncounterable Abrupt Decay, Nether Void still triggers, and they are welcome to pay for that trigger if they so choose. It's worth indicating the trigger to see whether they pay for it, at least on the first attempt—sort of like casting Council's Judgment and asking the opponent, "Which card do you vote for?" If they move hastily and don't understand the card, they can really hurt themselves.


Speaking of Nether Void, mine should arrive in the mail tomorrow, and it will likely earn a permanent slot in my 75. Navsi, do you have any thoughts about in which match-ups Nether Void is useful, apart from the obvious Storm, Elves, and Burn? Do you bring (or leave) it in to slow down Delver decks that want to cast lots of cheap spells? How about Miracles, to thwart Top and Terminus (not that we care as much as most decks about Terminus)? And in which cases would you board it out?

For reference, my list is very much like the one in the new thread primer, but -1 Sensei's, +1 Sylvan Library main. My sideboard is 4 Leyline of the Void, 4 Leyline of Sanctity, 2 Carpet of Flowers, 1 Lost Legacy, 1 City of Solitude, 1 Seal of Primordium, 1 Humility, 1 Curse of Death's Hold.

mstephenson
02-08-2017, 05:34 PM
Just give me a vid and I'll go nuts.


So I have some video of me playing BUG fit on camera at a local tourney if you are interested. I also wouldn't mind some feed back.

Edit: I am on camera round 1 btw.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/118276586

Also there was a point I G sun'd for 5 and realized my thragtusk was missing.


List for reference

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Baleful Strix
4 Brainstorm
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Nissa, Vital Force
3 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp


4 Force of Will
1 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Lost Legacy
1 To the Slaughter
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Caustic Caterpillar
1 Painful Truths
1 Golgari Charm
1 Surgical Extraction

Bobmans
02-09-2017, 08:32 AM
@ Massacre Wurm, it is a very tempting card, but to be honest, both Primeval Titan and Inferno Titan don't care about TNN, you can attack your opponent right thru it. Inferno Titan also takes care of other creatures aswell, if you haven't already with PFire. If you need a life swing, just grab a Tusk.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk

Arianrhod
02-09-2017, 10:47 AM
So I have some video of me playing BUG fit on camera at a local tourney if you are interested. I also wouldn't mind some feed back.

Edit: I am on camera round 1 btw.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/118276586

Also there was a point I G sun'd for 5 and realized my thragtusk was missing.


List for reference

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Baleful Strix
4 Brainstorm
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Nissa, Vital Force
3 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp


4 Force of Will
1 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Lost Legacy
1 To the Slaughter
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Caustic Caterpillar
1 Painful Truths
1 Golgari Charm
1 Surgical Extraction

Adam Paquette zen lands are great!

Did you know what you were vs going in? Or blind? I like the aggressive Vets for g1 vs Miracles. They'll get in a bunch of damage unless he wants to waste removal or a Snapcaster. Just don't crack them!

He actually has a pretty weak hand. You're probably looking to flashback off of Strix to get something through the Force at this point. If he allows you to flashback unimpeded, I'd probably name the Snapcaster there, because it's his blue card for FoW and also doubles up on StP.

Saccing Explorer is pretty greedy here, but we'll see what you have to play off of it. You were basicaly priced into taking the Force because you cracked the Vet -- could've just played it slow.

On the flip side, Snap+Ponder is pretty aggressive from his end, so...cool?

Surprised he let the Jace resolve -- he Pondered a Force to the top but may have not had a blue, I guess? I can't see the hands very well. Oh, Mentor. He's planning on just going wide and killing it (and/or you).

I like the Deed into E.Wit line. Unfortunately you're going to lose your Jace, but Jace is an okay trade for basically all of his cards.

I don't think I would've taken the hit from his board to crack on endstep. He has few cards in hand, if he has like a Counterbalance or something, it'll be naked -- same with another Mentor. You know he has at least a StP in his hand, which is not threatening. With maindeck Mentor it's unlikely he has maindeck Cliques, but I'd still be a little worried about your life total at this point -- he could easily set up Entreat via Brainstorm or drawing a Top and oops you at this point.

Ah, there's the Zenith for 5. Surprised Thrag's not in for game 1, I assumed that would be a sideboard derp. Did you decline Meren's trigger? I didn't see you put anything into your hand on endstep.

Not entirely sure why your opponent isn't blind Counterbalancing, but...sure. I'm guessing you declared Deed@2 and he scooped to save time? Probably wise, but a bit unexpected.

G2:

Containment Priest isn't surprising to see -- a lot of Miracles players will board them in because they don't have a ton of other relevant things to bring in, and the marginal hope of clipping a Zenith with it is usually good enough for them. Here, he can ambush viper Jaces, which is also attractive.

The follow-up Mentor is why I probably wouldn't have Pushed the Priest, unless you were planning on Zenithing the following turn. Deluge is a fine answer there, although it would've been nice to hit both Priest and Mentor. Opponent may not have extended that far, though, not sure. Ah, you do have a Zenith in hand. Second Priest is brutal and unexpected, I would've played into that as well.

They just updated that apparently your opponent won game 1. Did he Counterbalance the Deed and just....didn't show the camera? Or something? Confused.

I feel like this is a danger of the Miracles decks with maindeck Mentors. The pilots who choose those specific builds tend to play their deck more like a top-heavy tempo deck than an actual control deck, and most of them are bad at pivoting. More saying that as something to keep in mind about the mindset of these players and how they'll likely sequence/use their cards. Like the EoT Snap+Brainstorm just to pressure your life total -- not saying it's incorrect by any stretch, but most Miracles players aren't going to do that. Maindeck Mentor players are more likely to, from what I've seen. I can't see your hand so I don't know what you could be doing differently, really...you seem pretty flooded though.

Honestly I would almost treat maindeck Mentor miracles players more like Stoneblade (specifically UW Stoneblade) than "miracles." He has a decent amount of pressure, a lot of interaction, and a couple of big scary threats (planeswalkers etc).

Big fight over Jace. Didn't expect you to have your own Forces, that's kind of sweet. To the Slaughter, trying to do the lord's work. He Brainstormed into double Force, though...

If you can hold out here, you should be able to stabilize soon. He's low on resources and you have a lot of cards in hand I think.

Now you're having the problem that BUG Fits always seem to have -- you're ahead in cards and resources but can't slam the door.

Regrowing Clique seems a lot worse than Deed@2 into +1 smack him to 3 (if he has StP you gain 5 and still threaten ult which seems great when you're at 2 -- like, StP is actively good for you atm).

If you'd +'d Nissa last turn you'd be able to -3 to regrow Deed this turn to clean up the Mentor :(

But apparently you win? Cool? I'm seriously missing some things that are going on here.

G3:

I skipped ahead a little to make sure there wasn't a G3, and then there was a G3, so I missed a little of the game early on.

...and I'm guessing that you ended in a draw?

------------------------------

List looks pretty great actually, although I'm still of the opinion that we're a BUG Sigarda equivalent away from this style of deck being actually very good. True-Name kind of works but isn't Zenithable...we really need a Zenithable non-white hexproof guy with evasion.

I'm not sure how I feel about your sideboard, but that's mostly because of some of the 1-ofs like Caterpillar (can't be better than Rec Sage) and Golgari Charm (which I kind of just dislike in general). Conceptually I like being able to have Force of Will + Lost Legacy and a couple of other things to clean up (Clique, Fluster, etc). I'm actually a little surprised that you boarded in the Forces looking at your board.

Wouldn't this be better?:

-4 Vet
-4 Therapy

+3 Lost Legacy
+1 To the Slaughter
+1 Painful Truths
+1 Clique
+1 Caterpillar
+1 Deluge

square_two
02-09-2017, 11:06 AM
Now you're having the problem that BUG Fits always seem to have -- you're ahead in cards and resources but can't slam the door.

Looks like the main threats are 2 Jace, 2 Nissa, and Thragtusk? Not sure how I'd consider Meren alone as a threat. That does seem pretty light. Maybe there is room for a Primeval Titan? Getting Stronghold in play with Strixes available sounds pretty great.

I'm planning on taking the Dragon Bug/4c Fit with me to my weekly local tomorrow (if it actually fires, people here are finicky). I love the idea of a playset of Intuition. Grab 3 Jace, Loam/land/Raven's Crime, or Haven/Dragon/Loam or Ugin which seems very flexible. Threats there are 3 Jace, 1 Nissa, 1 Ugin, 1 Ob Nixilis (I've seen Stryfo online with both Ob Nix ult and Nissa ult, it is hilarious), 2 Dragonlords. And full playset of DRS which can help speed up the clock if we are in a situation of being ahead on resources/board.

Brael
02-09-2017, 11:09 AM
Skipped out on last weeks Legacy, may skip on it this week too. Just not having fun in the current local meta. Last Thursday it was apparently 3 Dredge, 3 Storm, 2 Eldrazi.

Been playing pickup games where I can though. Strangleroot Geist is performing great. A couple times I wish I still had Steve in the deck but overall it hasn't been a big deal.

Crop Rotation is performing great. At this point I think I'm going to declare that particular experiment over and firmly recommend the card. The actual land package you want is still up for debate but Crop Rotation improves your matchups across the board. The card does everything.

Very happy with my current build, but I'm also considering something more combo oriented with G1 Dark Depths and more Deeds. I haven't figured out the rest of the deck yet though. I'm finding 1 Deed to be too few, I think 2 is the right number for SE. Granted, I do have an extra in my sideboard for the times I want it.

amppyou
02-10-2017, 10:10 AM
Crop Rotation is performing great. At this point I think I'm going to declare that particular experiment over and firmly recommend the card.

Are you running CR in the main now? I had thought that you'd shifted it to your side.

I've always liked Sylvan Safekeeper / Titania. Those two alongside CR and maybe a Cradle seems like Christmasland.

Brael
02-10-2017, 07:00 PM
Are you running CR in the main now? I had thought that you'd shifted it to your side.

I've always liked Sylvan Safekeeper / Titania. Those two alongside CR and maybe a Cradle seems like Christmasland.

I run 2 main 1 side. When I move to more land oriented SB plans like bringing in Karakas or using DD I bring in the extra. Having a couple copies MB is nice though since it makes your opening hands more explosive.

DNSolver
02-11-2017, 12:34 AM
Hello Nic Fit Veterans (see what I did there?)

I am happy to report that I got a 5-0 tonight with a straight BG version of this deck, that I built using some inspiration from this thread and little bit of theorycrafting. Yesterday I had a 4-1 league in the morning and a 1-3 drop in the afternoon/evening. I usually play relatively unfair decks so this was me branching out a bit. You guys all seem like fun-loving people so I'm just going to share my decklist and some thoughts on the deck:

Decklist:

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
3 Swamp
4 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Treetop Village (I like this because it can kill Jace, the Mind Sculptor from Crop Rotation)
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Tireless Tracker (weakest slot in the maindeck IMO)
1 Master of the Wild Hunt (destroys BUG decks and Delver decks, good complement to Thrun)
1 Thrun, the Last Troll (good for trolling people :D )
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Nissa, Vital Force (Quite honestly, this is the best reason to ramp both players. I am astounded by how powerful this card has been)
3 Sensei's Divining Top (would not play less than 3, I could see playing a 4th)
2 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Crop Rotation
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Pernicious Deed

SB:
2 Surgical Extraction (necessary)
4 Sphere of Resistance (necessary)
2 Carpet of Flowers (necessary)
2 Duress (necessary)
2 Choke (seems ok?)
1 Pithing Needle
1 Garruk Relentless (is this necessary? Would I rather have another card for Miracles / combo?)
1 Thragtusk (burn? considering Obstinate Baloth)

There are some slots that I am less sure of, such as Tireless Tracker and some of the sideboard. However, I have been impressed with the Crop Rotation package - it usually finds Phyrexian Tower to super-ramp with Veteran Explorer into Nissa or Green Sun for one of my stupid 4 CMC guys. Nissa has blown me away every time I cast it - tomorrow morning I will record a Youtube video of the best Nissa usage I have ever dreamed of. I would play 3, but legend rule... :(

Thrun is very hard to answer, particularly with Karakas. Master of the Wild Hunt cleans up board states and makes up for having fewer creatures in the deck in general.

I'm pretty sure Surgical Extraction is necessary in the sideboard, which makes me want to play more discard in the sideboard also, even spreading to 2 Thoughtseize maindeck.

Obviously most of this information is obvious for you guys because you've played it more than I have. I would love to hear some input into my choices, particularly with my reducing the curve considerably to top off at 4 CMC creatures and 2 Nissas for the most part. I cut Sylvan Library after the 1st league because it doesn't interact well with Deed.

square_two
02-11-2017, 02:43 AM
I brought Stryfo's Dragon Fit to my local tonight (see top of page 7 for reference). We had 14 players I believe, for 4 rounds, and I was able to go undefeated. Used his exact main except for a Trop Island instead of U Sea since I didn't have one available. Really need to trade for one though, that land is pretty huge to rounding out the manabase. My side was pretty close to his current online list (2 Lost Legacy to replace Flusterstorm and Glen Elendra, 2nd Thoughtseize in place of Tabernacle).

Round 1 - Infect

Game 1 I have 3 Cabal Therapies plus a Strix in my opener...he mulls and I'm able to shred his hand quickly since he had double Invigorate and draws a second Blossoming Defence. Jace comes down not much longer and he scoops since he has nothing available except a single Hierarch.

Game 2 I flood very heavily while he gets 2 Hierarchs out and goes unimpeded. Eventually I topdeck Raven's Crime and make him discard 3 times that turn, but it is not enough to close out the game with my Deathrites. Didn't see much besides lands :/ But I also topdecked a Therapy and named very poorly right before I died, so there's that.

Game 3 Again Therapies help take out his hand of double Glistener. He has Surgical but misses using it early, and I get two more Therapies due to it. Strix comes down and again does fabulous blocking duty. Intution gets pierced but allows for followup Jace and then Deed. Brainstorming gets me another Deed and Decay so I'm pretty set and he scoops.

Gawd Strix is so good.

Round 2 - Pox

Game 1 I get out an early Deathrite which eats an edict, and then a 2nd, and my notes show opp at 18DRS, 16DRS, 14DRS, 12DRS...you get the idea. Intuition for lands and Loam is great to seal the deal.

Game 2 was very close since he had two early factories and a Crucible. I get down to 10 and get out Ob Nixilis. Next few turns are careful with me using Pulse to gain life, draw some cards with Ob Nix, then get Garruk out which has a token and himself save me some more life. Intuition for Loam+Haven later and I'm able to put Ojutai on the board (at which point I'm dead to an edict effect), Deed comes down which is more insurance, then later I have the mana to crack Haven and play Dromoka, and ult Ob Nix which seals it. He shows me a hand of 3 Urborg which is sad - Liliana at any point would have easiliy given him the win there.

Round 3 - BR Reanimator

Game 1 This guy is a little inexperienced with the deck. He puts Tidespout into play T1 I believe, but uses his entire hand to do it. I get out land, DRS. He topdecks a land (yay!), and I get out my second land. His turn I take another hit and cast Intuition, picking 3 Jaces to hopefully bounce the thing. For some reason he doesn't cast his Entomb at any time to bounce my land or DRS, so I get to cast Jace (which he decides to bounce...). He scoops shortly after due to DRS and Jace available while he doesn't have anything in hand.

Game 2 I'm able to strip his Animate Deads from the deck, but he gets out a Grisel anyway due to Reanimate. I don't have too many draws, but he goes to 2 to draw cards. I topdeck a Lost Legacy and then accidentally name Entomb instead of Exhume (meant to say Exhume). Next turn he swings, draws, and then uses 2 Exhumes to get more stuff into play :(

Game 3 I get a nice Therapy hit naming Entomb, and he struggles to put any fatty into his yard for the rest of the game. I have the time to land Strix, DRS and then Ob Nix. He Reanimates my Ojutai but is dead to DRS drains the following turn.

Round 4 - Lands

Game 1 He has the nut Exploration, Gamble for Loam, Ports etc which locks me out. I kept a bad 7 with 2 Jace, 1 Top, couple poor lands.

Game 2 He has an early Marit Lage from a natural Stage + crop rotation. I have played 2 Strixes...they both end up chump blocking and I even waste a Deed to kill his only Mox Diamond to prevent my second Strix from being PFired. My last turn available I topdeck To the Slaughter and he scoops after I cast it and then Surgical the Depths.

Game 3 Was long and grindy, he has Loam and PFire but no Exploration. My own Loam shows up early and I'm able to get light use out of it with a couple Verdant Catacombs. My two early Vets are just attacking in each turn, and I manage to find To the Slaughter right as he finds Depths. That card has beaten the guy multiple times and I probably didn't even need to have it in hand, just bluff keeping black mana open...anyway I keep getting damage in with Vets and a Strix, using Jace and DRS to eat up his PFires. Eventually he gets to 3 and has to kill my Vets, which gives me the mana I needed to cast Ugin in hand to finish it. He should have just made the token way earlier, forced the Slaughter out of my hand, and then Loam the depths back and try again...he told me afterward that he was afraid that I had both Slaughter and Surgical early on (it wasn't until very late that I Intuitioned for 3 Surgicals...) He also could have been more aggressive with his Wastelands but allowed me instead to keep 2-3 duals available.

Deck seems solid. Intuition is simply outstanding and I did not miss Green Sun's Zenith at all. The walkers provide plenty of power and the Intution/Loam/Haven/Dragons grind plan is very flexible. I look forward to further testing with it. Sorry if the game details seems a bit unfocused or rushed - I try to scribble some general notes as I can but this was my first time playing the list and I needed to concentrate.

itrytostorm
02-11-2017, 09:12 AM
Hello Nic Fit Veterans (see what I did there?)

I am happy to report that I got a 5-0 tonight with a straight BG version of this deck, that I built using some inspiration from this thread and little bit of theorycrafting. Yesterday I had a 4-1 league in the morning and a 1-3 drop in the afternoon/evening. I usually play relatively unfair decks so this was me branching out a bit. You guys all seem like fun-loving people so I'm just going to share my decklist and some thoughts on the deck:

Decklist:

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
3 Swamp
4 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Treetop Village (I like this because it can kill Jace, the Mind Sculptor from Crop Rotation)
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Tireless Tracker (weakest slot in the maindeck IMO)
1 Master of the Wild Hunt (destroys BUG decks and Delver decks, good complement to Thrun)
1 Thrun, the Last Troll (good for trolling people :D )
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Nissa, Vital Force (Quite honestly, this is the best reason to ramp both players. I am astounded by how powerful this card has been)
3 Sensei's Divining Top (would not play less than 3, I could see playing a 4th)
2 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Crop Rotation
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Pernicious Deed

SB:
2 Surgical Extraction (necessary)
4 Sphere of Resistance (necessary)
2 Carpet of Flowers (necessary)
2 Duress (necessary)
2 Choke (seems ok?)
1 Pithing Needle
1 Garruk Relentless (is this necessary? Would I rather have another card for Miracles / combo?)
1 Thragtusk (burn? considering Obstinate Baloth)

There are some slots that I am less sure of, such as Tireless Tracker and some of the sideboard. However, I have been impressed with the Crop Rotation package - it usually finds Phyrexian Tower to super-ramp with Veteran Explorer into Nissa or Green Sun for one of my stupid 4 CMC guys. Nissa has blown me away every time I cast it - tomorrow morning I will record a Youtube video of the best Nissa usage I have ever dreamed of. I would play 3, but legend rule... :(

Thrun is very hard to answer, particularly with Karakas. Master of the Wild Hunt cleans up board states and makes up for having fewer creatures in the deck in general.

I'm pretty sure Surgical Extraction is necessary in the sideboard, which makes me want to play more discard in the sideboard also, even spreading to 2 Thoughtseize maindeck.

Obviously most of this information is obvious for you guys because you've played it more than I have. I would love to hear some input into my choices, particularly with my reducing the curve considerably to top off at 4 CMC creatures and 2 Nissas for the most part. I cut Sylvan Library after the 1st league because it doesn't interact well with Deed.

Awesome list. Have you thought about adding 5+ CMC creature to close out games now with Fatal Push being a thing?

Brael
02-11-2017, 02:12 PM
Hello Nic Fit Veterans (see what I did there?)

I am happy to report that I got a 5-0 tonight with a straight BG version of this deck, that I built using some inspiration from this thread and little bit of theorycrafting. Yesterday I had a 4-1 league in the morning and a 1-3 drop in the afternoon/evening. I usually play relatively unfair decks so this was me branching out a bit. You guys all seem like fun-loving people so I'm just going to share my decklist and some thoughts on the deck:

Decklist:

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
3 Swamp
4 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Treetop Village (I like this because it can kill Jace, the Mind Sculptor from Crop Rotation)
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Tireless Tracker (weakest slot in the maindeck IMO)
1 Master of the Wild Hunt (destroys BUG decks and Delver decks, good complement to Thrun)
1 Thrun, the Last Troll (good for trolling people :D )
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Nissa, Vital Force (Quite honestly, this is the best reason to ramp both players. I am astounded by how powerful this card has been)
3 Sensei's Divining Top (would not play less than 3, I could see playing a 4th)
2 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Crop Rotation
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Pernicious Deed

SB:
2 Surgical Extraction (necessary)
4 Sphere of Resistance (necessary)
2 Carpet of Flowers (necessary)
2 Duress (necessary)
2 Choke (seems ok?)
1 Pithing Needle
1 Garruk Relentless (is this necessary? Would I rather have another card for Miracles / combo?)
1 Thragtusk (burn? considering Obstinate Baloth)

There are some slots that I am less sure of, such as Tireless Tracker and some of the sideboard. However, I have been impressed with the Crop Rotation package - it usually finds Phyrexian Tower to super-ramp with Veteran Explorer into Nissa or Green Sun for one of my stupid 4 CMC guys. Nissa has blown me away every time I cast it - tomorrow morning I will record a Youtube video of the best Nissa usage I have ever dreamed of. I would play 3, but legend rule... :(

Thrun is very hard to answer, particularly with Karakas. Master of the Wild Hunt cleans up board states and makes up for having fewer creatures in the deck in general.

I'm pretty sure Surgical Extraction is necessary in the sideboard, which makes me want to play more discard in the sideboard also, even spreading to 2 Thoughtseize maindeck.

Obviously most of this information is obvious for you guys because you've played it more than I have. I would love to hear some input into my choices, particularly with my reducing the curve considerably to top off at 4 CMC creatures and 2 Nissas for the most part. I cut Sylvan Library after the 1st league because it doesn't interact well with Deed.

Glad to hear BG working out for others. Our lists are similar in a lot of ways, and different in others. I completely agree with your assessment of Nissa but I think you're wrong about Tracker. I went for more of a CA focused build and Tracker has been great. I play two main in addition to Bobs. Your curve is slightly higher than mine, but Bob would still work in it. With only 11 creatures though I wonder if GSZ is what you want.

lavafrogg
02-12-2017, 02:00 AM
Glad to hear BG working out for others. Our lists are similar in a lot of ways, and different in others. I completely agree with your assessment of Nissa but I think you're wrong about Tracker. I went for more of a CA focused build and Tracker has been great. I play two main in addition to Bobs. Your curve is slightly higher than mine, but Bob would still work in it. With only 11 creatures though I wonder if GSZ is what you want.

At what point, if you add dark confidants and lower your curve, aren't you ruining the entire reason veteran explorer is in the deck?

My opinion has always bee veteran explorer/cabal therapy into Deed into "insert recursion engine or overcosted card advantage engine/unanswerable threat".

I read the NicFit posts regularly and I think it is the better BG home for GSZ as you don't want to run 4x fatties but need to be able to answer or trump as many strategies as possible. I have been playing BG with DRS over Veteran Explorer and I think I have the better home for Dark Confidant and Tracker with the lower CC and greater velocity off the start.

I do really love your use of crop rotation and I will experiment with it after my current obsession, Noxious Revival, dies down.

Brael
02-12-2017, 09:03 AM
At what point, if you add dark confidants and lower your curve, aren't you ruining the entire reason veteran explorer is in the deck?

My opinion has always bee veteran explorer/cabal therapy into Deed into "insert recursion engine or overcosted card advantage engine/unanswerable threat".



Probably at the point where I'm not using the ramp. I still play a bunch of 5 cost cards if you include GSZ for X=4. The difference is that I have a lower curve, so when the acceleration plan doesn't happen, I can still do things. When the mana ramp works I get to do more things rather than bigger ones.

Arianrhod
02-12-2017, 10:01 AM
Probably at the point where I'm not using the ramp. I still play a bunch of 5 cost cards if you include GSZ for X=4. The difference is that I have a lower curve, so when the acceleration plan doesn't happen, I can still do things. When the mana ramp works I get to do more things rather than bigger ones.

This is basically Brael's concept summed up. Rather than invest his mana into several big things, he would rather use his mana to generate multiple smaller things. Just a slightly different philosophy -- certainly no less valid. I've wanted to look into something similar myself, as a backup plan for when/if Top gets banned. At that point, I think that the best versions of the deck will have lower curves with Night's Whispers and other card draw options (Courser's stock probably goes way up, as well) -- rather than relying on Top's filtering to find the right mix of land, removal, and bomb, we'll need to just draw as many cards as possible and leverage our mana advantage across multiple play per turn.

Chatto
02-12-2017, 11:37 AM
Hi all,

Lately, I have been impressed with Tireless Tracker in my Lands sb, and was looking for a good shell to play her maindeck. I played BG Nic Fit a long time ago, and decided to build this shell around her.

I'm planning to take the following to the next small tournament coming week:

Creatures (17)
1 Thragtusk
1 Eternal Witness
1 Wall of Blossom
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Primeval Titan
3 Tireless Tracker
4 Veteran Explorer

Spells (22)
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy

Lands (21)
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Windswept Heath
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Bayou
3 Swamp
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Forest

I think you guys can see where I'm getting at: take full advantage of TT, and also play the 'basic Nic Fit Game'.

The list is far from ideal, though, as I'm still missing some cards:

- Meren of Clan Nel Toth replacing Thragtusk (will take a slot in the sb) or Wickerbough Elder (will be replaced with Reclamation Sage in the sb)

- Sakura-Tribe Elder replacing a Wall of Blossom (I think, because of the better synergy with Tireless Tracker)

- Reclamation Sage (if I'm to swap Wickerbough Elder) in the sb.

- Ulvenwald Hydra replacing one Primeval Titan, as the big bomb.

I'm also considering dropping the 3rd SDT for a 4th Abrupt Decay. Also, maybe I should drop the Undiscovered Paradise, but I like it so far (positive results after testing -being able to make a landdrop each turn-, but probably too cute)

I think this is probably blasphemy, but Pernicious Deed and Clue-tokens aren't exactly synergy. Brainfart: dropping both in favor of the 4th Abrupt Decay, and 4th Fatal Push (and keeping the 3rd SDT in the process). PD would have some slots in the sb, though. I do like the possibility to reset the board. What do you guys think?

About Fatal Push: getting Revolt is pretty easy. Crack a Fetch or Clue-token, return Undiscovered Paradise, draw a card with SDT, use Pernicious Deed, or sac a Veteran Explorer, it all works.

I'm also not sure about the sb. Perhaps you guys have some input?

So, don't hold back: is the list too cute? Still going to test it 'live', though (even though the list isn't perfect) :smile:

Arianrhod
02-12-2017, 12:40 PM
Hi all,

Lately, I have been impressed with Tireless Tracker in my Lands sb, and was looking for a good shell to play her maindeck. I played BG Nic Fit a long time ago, and decided to build this shell around her.

I'm planning to take the following to the next small tournament coming week:

Creatures (17)
1 Thragtusk
1 Eternal Witness
1 Wall of Blossom
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Primeval Titan
3 Tireless Tracker
4 Veteran Explorer

Spells (22)
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy

Lands (21)
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Windswept Heath
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Bayou
3 Swamp
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Forest

I think you guys can see where I'm getting at: take full advantage of TT, and also play the 'basic Nic Fit Game'.

The list is far from ideal, though, as I'm still missing some cards:

- Meren of Clan Nel Toth replacing Thragtusk (will take a slot in the sb) or Wickerbough Elder (will be replaced with Reclamation Sage in the sb)

- Sakura-Tribe Elder replacing a Wall of Blossom (I think, because of the better synergy with Tireless Tracker)

- Reclamation Sage (if I'm to swap Wickerbough Elder) in the sb.

- Ulvenwald Hydra replacing one Primeval Titan, as the big bomb.

I'm also considering dropping the 3rd SDT for a 4th Abrupt Decay. Also, maybe I should drop the Undiscovered Paradise, but I like it so far (positive results after testing -being able to make a landdrop each turn-, but probably too cute)

I think this is probably blasphemy, but Pernicious Deed and Clue-tokens aren't exactly synergy. Brainfart: dropping both in favor of the 4th Abrupt Decay, and 4th Fatal Push (and keeping the 3rd SDT in the process). PD would have some slots in the sb, though. I do like the possibility to reset the board. What do you guys think?

About Fatal Push: getting Revolt is pretty easy. Crack a Fetch or Clue-token, return Undiscovered Paradise, draw a card with SDT, use Pernicious Deed, or sac a Veteran Explorer, it all works.

I'm also not sure about the sb. Perhaps you guys have some input?

So, don't hold back: is the list too cute? Still going to test it 'live', though (even though the list isn't perfect) :smile:

Primeval 2 is better than Ulvenwald -- Ulvenwald not having evasion or protection is a deal-breaker. Just being huge isn't good enough. Not running Nissa VF in this type of deck, in particular, seems criminal. Add Nissas, and if you still feel like you need more wincons, consider splashing in a Kessig Wolf Run or a Sigarda (Kessig is easier but loses to Wasteland or Ghost Quarter).

Undiscovered Paradise seems amazing in this deck and I'd definitely leave it in for a couple tournaments before re-evaluating. That's some pretty cool tech.

Purple Blood
02-12-2017, 01:24 PM
Hi all,

Lately, I have been impressed with Tireless Tracker in my Lands sb, and was looking for a good shell to play her maindeck. I played BG Nic Fit a long time ago, and decided to build this shell around her.

I'm planning to take the following to the next small tournament coming week:

Creatures (17)
1 Thragtusk
1 Eternal Witness
1 Wall of Blossom
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Primeval Titan
3 Tireless Tracker
4 Veteran Explorer

Spells (22)
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy

Lands (21)
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Windswept Heath
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Bayou
3 Swamp
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Forest

I think you guys can see where I'm getting at: take full advantage of TT, and also play the 'basic Nic Fit Game'.

The list is far from ideal, though, as I'm still missing some cards:

- Meren of Clan Nel Toth replacing Thragtusk (will take a slot in the sb) or Wickerbough Elder (will be replaced with Reclamation Sage in the sb)

- Sakura-Tribe Elder replacing a Wall of Blossom (I think, because of the better synergy with Tireless Tracker)

- Reclamation Sage (if I'm to swap Wickerbough Elder) in the sb.

- Ulvenwald Hydra replacing one Primeval Titan, as the big bomb.

I'm also considering dropping the 3rd SDT for a 4th Abrupt Decay. Also, maybe I should drop the Undiscovered Paradise, but I like it so far (positive results after testing -being able to make a landdrop each turn-, but probably too cute)

I think this is probably blasphemy, but Pernicious Deed and Clue-tokens aren't exactly synergy. Brainfart: dropping both in favor of the 4th Abrupt Decay, and 4th Fatal Push (and keeping the 3rd SDT in the process). PD would have some slots in the sb, though. I do like the possibility to reset the board. What do you guys think?

About Fatal Push: getting Revolt is pretty easy. Crack a Fetch or Clue-token, return Undiscovered Paradise, draw a card with SDT, use Pernicious Deed, or sac a Veteran Explorer, it all works.

I'm also not sure about the sb. Perhaps you guys have some input?

So, don't hold back: is the list too cute? Still going to test it 'live', though (even though the list isn't perfect) :smile:

I'd want to test out Titania, Protector of Argoth and as the above poster said Nissa. You could also think about more utility lands and maybe even DD combo. Check out Brael's land config.

Lueseto
02-12-2017, 02:09 PM
Hi! I'm kind of new to legacy (new to playing it, but I've followed it for quite a while) and I've been building up a pseudo-budget (no duals) Nic Fit BUG deck and I'd like to share it to get some thoughts and advice...

Lands (22)

2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacomb
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
1 Treetop Village
2 Wasteland
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Thespian Stage
1 Dark Depths

Creatures (12)

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Thragtusk
1 The Gitrog Monster
1 Primeval Titan

Other spells (26)

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Golgari Charm
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Brainstorm
2 Intuition
4 Crop Rotation
1 Life from the Loam


I was previously running Hymn to Tourach instead of Crop Rotation and I liked the possibility of flashing back Cabal Therapy on turn 2 and go fetch two swamps into Hymn to Tourach and rip the opponent's hand apart but the deck felt like it needed help closing games so I decided to emphasize on the Dark Depths combo adding Crop Rotation (I also read on the primer that Hymn wasn't recommended to not overextend discard spells and make the deck a more powerful topdecker).

I was happy to come here and see @DNSolver trying Crop Rotation out too, though with more grindy targets. Has anoyne tried running the Dark Depths combo in Nic Fit before? I love having Primeval Titan in the deck so if the game drags on I can go and Zenith him and grab the two lands. The intuition pack lets me go and fetch the combo pretty early and if need be you can pile 3 Cabal Therapies and be done with their hand. I remember reading some discussion about Intuition, but can't find it now...

Sideboard is still a work in progress but I will probably be running some number of Vendilion Clique and mostly anti-combo cards as it seems that the deck is powerful against fair strategies.

Feedback would be appreciated! :D

Chatto
02-12-2017, 03:27 PM
Primeval 2 is better than Ulvenwald -- Ulvenwald not having evasion or protection is a deal-breaker. Just being huge isn't good enough. Not running Nissa VF in this type of deck, in particular, seems criminal. Add Nissas, and if you still feel like you need more wincons, consider splashing in a Kessig Wolf Run or a Sigarda (Kessig is easier but loses to Wasteland or Ghost Quarter).

Undiscovered Paradise seems amazing in this deck and I'd definitely leave it in for a couple tournaments before re-evaluating. That's some pretty cool tech.

I forgot about Nissa VF, thanks for reminding me :smile: Will probably replace the 3rd SDT for one Nissa, and one in the sb. I will keep UP in, it's definitly worth the slot.


I'd want to test out Titania, Protector of Argoth and as the above poster said Nissa. You could also think about more utility lands and maybe even DD combo. Check out Brael's land config.

Titiana is a 5cmc worth to consider. I'm not to fond of DD-combo in this deck, although I can see running both DD and TS as a one-of in my sb (also some nice synergy with Titiana). About utility-lands: perhaps a Urborg to make the fetchland tap for mana?

Brael
02-12-2017, 04:11 PM
I was happy to come here and see @DNSolver trying Crop Rotation out too, though with more grindy targets. Has anoyne tried running the Dark Depths combo in Nic Fit before? I love having Primeval Titan in the deck so if the game drags on I can go and Zenith him and grab the two lands. The intuition pack lets me go and fetch the combo pretty early and if need be you can pile 3 Cabal Therapies and be done with their hand. I remember reading some discussion about Intuition, but can't find it now...


Check out the primer, there's a variant called SE Fit that we came up with about a year ago that I've been playing. In particular, the GB builds have been using Crop Rotation with Dark Depths as a sideboard plan. Others have tried to combo with just one of each card and a Primeval Titan to fetch both, my plan has been a little different.

Unless you already have the Depths though, I wouldn't worry too much about this plan. The biggest upgrade you can make for your deck is Bayou's so I would put your budget towards that first.

Navsi
02-12-2017, 05:21 PM
Has anoyne tried running the Dark Depths combo in Nic Fit before? I love having Primeval Titan in the deck so if the game drags on I can go and Zenith him and grab the two lands. The intuition pack lets me go and fetch the combo pretty early and if need be you can pile 3 Cabal Therapies and be done with their hand. I remember reading some discussion about Intuition, but can't find it now...

Depths combo has been tried a few times, the general consensus is that it's okay but better in a deck that can afford to play Loam (and if you go further down that route, you're probably better off just playing a dedicated Loam deck). The current intuition/rotation builds look reasonable, though, but the above was the consensus after the previous rounds of testing.

Brael
02-12-2017, 06:22 PM
Depths combo has been tried a few times, the general consensus is that it's okay but better in a deck that can afford to play Loam (and if you go further down that route, you're probably better off just playing a dedicated Loam deck). The current intuition/rotation builds look reasonable, though, but the above was the consensus after the previous rounds of testing.

That's why DD isn't my plan A, it's a SB plan against decks where you don't have time to play a fair game.

Brael
02-12-2017, 07:16 PM
Titiana is a 5cmc worth to consider. I'm not to fond of DD-combo in this deck, although I can see running both DD and TS as a one-of in my sb (also some nice synergy with Titiana). About utility-lands: perhaps a Urborg to make the fetchland tap for mana?

DD is good with Crop Rotation. I'm not a fan of it with Primeval Titan though.

The utility package I prefer with Crop Rotation is:
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bojuka Bog

And in the SB
1 Karakas
3 Dark Depths
2 Thespian's Stage

If you search back you can find some SB plans I made for everything. The MB Bojuka Bog has been particularly good, because it has freed me from Scavenging Ooze in favor of a more aggressive 2 drop.

Lueseto
02-12-2017, 08:37 PM
Thanks for the quick replies!!

And what are your thoughts on Polukranos as a Zenitheable fatty that can wipe small creatures?

Right now, with the upcoming of Fatal Push, I am starting to doubt of it's viabilty more and more... Do you think that this deck doesn't need Zenitheable removal being that I'm running 3 Deeds and 3 Decays? Are there any better green creatures that perform a similar role? I've seen Master of the Wild Hunt, but Polukranos doesn't die to Lightning Bolt and packs quite a punch while Master seems grindier and slower...

fireiced
02-12-2017, 10:42 PM
And what are your thoughts on Polukranos as a Zenitheable fatty that can wipe small creatures?

Right now, with the upcoming of Fatal Push, I am starting to doubt of it's viabilty more and more... Do you think that this deck doesn't need Zenitheable removal being that I'm running 3 Deeds and 3 Decays? Are there any better green creatures that perform a similar role? I've seen Master of the Wild Hunt, but Polukranos doesn't die to Lightning Bolt and packs quite a punch while Master seems grindier and slower...

Dies to removal is quite a lackluster argument against Master as Polukranos monstrous trigger on the stack + removal from opponent is a more massive blowout. You have to weight the merits of both and what you want the creature to do. IMHO Master is leagues better as he snowballs out of control while Polukranos is just a dumb fatty with a 1 shot removal effect that is extremely mana taxing (not to mention he sucks at removing Baleful Strix which is flying everywhere).

The best Zenithable removal IMHO is Huntmaster at 4cc.

Echelon
02-13-2017, 01:12 AM
Titiana is a 5cmc worth to consider. I'm not to fond of DD-combo in this deck, although I can see running both DD and TS as a one-of in my sb (also some nice synergy with Titiana). About utility-lands: perhaps a Urborg to make the fetchland tap for mana?

5 CMC creature answered by Lightning Bolt. Danger Of Cool Things, TM.

Navsi
02-13-2017, 03:36 AM
5 CMC creature answered by Lightning Bolt. Danger Of Cool Things, TM.

"Have Bolt or die" is a reasonable question to be asking, though. Sylvan Safekeeper is always going to be in the same deck as Titania, too. IMO she's good enough to be worth testing more, maybe in a Renegade Rallier shell.

Echelon
02-13-2017, 03:55 AM
"Have Bolt or die" is a reasonable question to be asking, though. Sylvan Safekeeper is always going to be in the same deck as Titania, too. IMO she's good enough to be worth testing more, maybe in a Renegade Rallier shell.

Actually, it's "Have Bolt/Daze/FoW or die". Since casting a 5 (or 6 if you GSZ) mana spell is begging for a counter. Daze can be blanked if you hit 6 or 7 mana, sure, but at that point we're starting to stretch things a bit. My point is that Bolt isn't the only card that can piss on your parade.

And Renegade Rallier still doesn't quite do what we want it to.

Navsi
02-13-2017, 04:30 AM
Actually, it's "Have Bolt/Daze/FoW or die". Since casting a 5 (or 6 if you GSZ) mana spell is begging for a counter. Daze can be blanked if you hit 6 or 7 mana, sure, but at that point we're starting to stretch things a bit. My point is that Bolt isn't the only card that can piss on your parade.

True, but counterspells are an answer to pretty much every spell in our deck so I don't think Titania is any worse off than the other options in that situation, and she dies to Bolt but in exchange applies a much faster clock than our other options.

What do you think we want Rallier to do?

Echelon
02-13-2017, 04:51 AM
What do you think we want Rallier to do?

I'd want Rallier to either return (or rather re-cast) spells w/ CMC <= 2 or to return permanents w/ CMC <= 3.

What it does now is just too cute, even when paired w/ Titania (seeing as it'd usually hit the field before Titania does). For 3 mana I'd much rather cast a Tireless Tracker and threaten to take over the game ("Have Bolt or die").

Chatto
02-13-2017, 09:19 AM
DD is good with Crop Rotation. I'm not a fan of it with Primeval Titan though.

The utility package I prefer with Crop Rotation is:
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bojuka Bog

And in the SB
1 Karakas
3 Dark Depths
2 Thespian's Stage

If you search back you can find some SB plans I made for everything. The MB Bojuka Bog has been particularly good, because it has freed me from Scavenging Ooze in favor of a more aggressive 2 drop.

Interesting. It also gives another landdrop, which potentially adds a counter to TT.


5 CMC creature answered by Lightning Bolt. Danger Of Cool Things, TM.

True, can't deny this, but even if you could manage to trigger her ability once or twice can be potentially backbreaking.

square_two
02-13-2017, 10:35 AM
"Have Bolt or die" is a reasonable question to be asking, though. Sylvan Safekeeper is always going to be in the same deck as Titania, too. IMO she's good enough to be worth testing more, maybe in a Renegade Rallier shell.

I think the bigger issue with Titania right now is the prevalence of BUG decks and thus the higher-than-normal amount of Deathrites. Titania becomes at best a one-trick pony if you are in fact able to keep fetches and/or a Wasteland in the grave. I think she is pretty lackluster if you can't make a token the turn she comes in.

Maybe there's not actually much more Deathrites than normal, but to me it feels that way right now.

At some point before GP Vegas, I'll probably give in and buy the rest of the cards required for Dragon Fit online. I'd like to be able to get more reps in with the deck and drum up a bit more interest.

Brael
02-13-2017, 10:40 AM
Interesting. It also gives another landdrop, which potentially adds a counter to TT.


A counter and a clue, which we have the mana to easily turn into cards. Crop Rotation for a fetch is actually a line I take from time to time with Tracker. It's actually one of the lines that I think makes the card so powerful in our deck. Like GSZ it's early game acceleration, getting Tower. Midgame it's recursion with Phyrexian Tower. But if you're digging for something specific Tireless Tracker turns it into a draw 2, or even a draw 3 if you get some Courser of Kruphix action in there too.

I actually won a game the other day because I had 2 Trackers down and went Crop Rotation for Volrath's Stronghold, put Eternal Witness on top, next turn draw Witness, play it, get back Crop Rotation, rotation for a fetchland, fetch. That sequence was worth a 2/1, 6 cards, and +6/+6 on each tracker. My opponent just couldn't keep up, which was nice since they were ahead prior to that.

Chatto
02-13-2017, 11:21 AM
A counter and a clue, which we have the mana to easily turn into cards. Crop Rotation for a fetch is actually a line I take from time to time with Tracker. It's actually one of the lines that I think makes the card so powerful in our deck. Like GSZ it's early game acceleration, getting Tower. Midgame it's recursion with Phyrexian Tower. But if you're digging for something specific Tireless Tracker turns it into a draw 2, or even a draw 3 if you get some Courser of Kruphix action in there too.

I actually won a game the other day because I had 2 Trackers down and went Crop Rotation for Volrath's Stronghold, put Eternal Witness on top, next turn draw Witness, play it, get back Crop Rotation, rotation for a fetchland, fetch. That sequence was worth a 2/1, 6 cards, and +3/+3 on each tracker. My opponent just couldn't keep up, which was nice since they were ahead prior to that.

Yup, she'll turn the tide of unanswered. I was playing Lands, vs SnS. My opponent dropped Blood Moon which actually helped me: I was able to Crop Rotate for my lone Forest, took the turn, cast TT, with Exploration out made two landsrops a turn. Thanks to Clues i drew K-Grip, opted not to cast it, because in three turns TT was 11/10!

I would like to pull this of with straight BG Nic Fit, but also play big bombs.

Brael
02-13-2017, 11:41 AM
I would like to pull this of with straight BG Nic Fit, but also play big bombs.

The problem is that BG doesn't have a good selection of bombs, that you can GSZ atleast. There's Gitrog Monster but I don't think that's very good. There's Primeval Titan but paying 7 to GSZ is asking a lot.

What pushed me to straight BG was Nissa VF. She's better than Sigarda in my opinion, and doesn't require white. But then you get into the issue of not being able to GSZ. I'm currently using Chameleon Colossus as my biggest bomb. It has protection which is sometimes evasion, and hits really, really hard. I find that if you have the mana to tutor it, you can probably have the mana to pump twice on the following turn which makes it a 16/16. The only thing that can kill it is Swords/Path/Terminate basically. It survives Bolt, dodges Angler, dodges Strix, dodges Terminate, dodges Push, it even dodges germ tokens. That's not to say it's the best card ever, but I'm finding it to be an effective bomb.

CptHaddock
02-13-2017, 01:23 PM
The problem is that BG doesn't have a good selection of bombs, that you can GSZ atleast. There's Gitrog Monster but I don't think that's very good. There's Primeval Titan but paying 7 to GSZ is asking a lot.

What pushed me to straight BG was Nissa VF. She's better than Sigarda in my opinion, and doesn't require white. But then you get into the issue of not being able to GSZ. I'm currently using Chameleon Colossus as my biggest bomb. It has protection which is sometimes evasion, and hits really, really hard. I find that if you have the mana to tutor it, you can probably have the mana to pump twice on the following turn which makes it a 16/16. The only thing that can kill it is Swords/Path/Terminate basically. It survives Bolt, dodges Angler, dodges Strix, dodges Terminate, dodges Push, it even dodges germ tokens. That's not to say it's the best card ever, but I'm finding it to be an effective bomb.

What is stopping you from just playing goyfs?