[DTB] U/R Delver

[Chatto]

U/R Delver, a Legacy Primer

I. Introduction
a) History
b) Strategy
c) Why should I play U/R Delver?

II. Card Choices
a) Main Deck
b) Sideboard

III. Variants of U/R Delver
a) The Reveler List
b) The Non-Reveler List
c) The Control List

IV. Matchups, Strategy & Sideboarding Options

lV. Matchups
a) Already tested, bad card choices
b) To Be Tested Cards
c) Tested, Niche Potential

VI. Literature
a) U/R Delver Related
b) Legacy Related
c) General Magic Theory
d) Updates

VII. Final Addendum

I. Introduction

a) History

Ever since the beginning of Legacy, the format has known certain archetypes, to fit player's favorate playstyle. Some players like to play Control, while others like to play Aggro or Combo. One such archetype is Tempo.

Tempo refers to different aspect of the game, which loosly can be described as board presence: effective use of mana, cost effective beatsticks, life totals, and card advantage. In short, the player who knows how best to use his or her resources to the fullest, is able to dictate the tempo of the game, and is most likely to win.

While Tempo-strategies are not specific related to one colour, it is mostly associated with Blue. It was with the release of Innistrad (2011), and one card in particulair that the Tempo-strategy became 'mature'. Delver of Secrets would have a big impact on Legacy, and on Tempo oriented decks. One of the first succesfull tempo decks to emerge was RUG Delver. Other ‘Delver-decks’ were soon to follow.

This primer is about one of those other tempo decks: U/R Delver. It combines Aggro-elements of Burn, with Tempo-elements of, say, RUG Delver.

U/R Delver can be described as a counterBurn deck. Early lists don't really differ much of today's list. For example, this list by Andrew Shrout took first place at SGC St. Louis (04-12-2011):

3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide
4 Delver of Secrets

2 Fireblast
2 Daze
3 Force of Will
3 Price of Progress
3 Spell Snare
3 Ponder
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm

1 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
2 Mountain
2 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island

Sideboard
2 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Submerge
3 Pyroblast
1 Force of Will

Of course, the creature base is a bit different. The printing of Treasure Cruise made U/R Delver omnipresent. One of the first list with Treasure Cruise was:

3 Young Pyromancer
3 True-Name Nemesis
4 Delver of Secrets

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
3 Treasure Cruise
3 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Chain Lightning
4 Stifle
1 Spell Pierce

Sideboard
1 Swan Song
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Submerge
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyroblast
1 Mana Maze
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Envelop/[cards]

Played at Trial BOM on 27 september 2014 it had all the elements of the U/R Delver list that would become prominent, yet played only three Treasure Cruise. It was Bob Huang who took first place at SCG Legacy Open Edison (28 september 2014) with the following list:

[cards]4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Young Pyromancer

2 Forked Bolt
4 Ponder
1 Chain Lightning
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Treasure Cruise
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze

4 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Mountain
2 Island

Sideboard
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Blood Moon
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Smash to Smithereens
3 Pyroblast

Based on a list by Ben Winokur, Huang would present a blueprint for the months to come. U/R Delver would become the most efficient Aggro Tempo deck to dominate Legacy.

But the dream couldn’t last forever, and Treasure Cruise proved to be too good. The card got the banhammer on 19th of january 2015. U/R Delver was back at the drawingboard, and different builds were being played. Then, on 22th of January 2016, Stormchaser Mage was printed, and the modern U/R Delver deck took shape.

4 Monastery Swiftspear
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Stormchaser Mage

3 Ponder
4 Chain Lightning
3 Spell Snare
3 Price of Progress
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Force of Will
2 Fireblast
2 Daze
4 Brainstorm

1 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
2 Mountain
2 Island

Sideboard
1 Force of Will
3 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Submerge
3 Pyroblast

Played by Dries Vanheukelom on 26th January 2016 it showed all the ingredients for U/R Delver’s newest incarnation. Still, different variations of the deck were being played, but by the end of the year a more streamlined and stock version would emerge. Hall of Fame-inductee Olle Rade has got a lot of success with the following list (this one played on 5th December 2016):

2 Bedlam Reveler
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Stormchaser Mage

4 Chain Lightning
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Fireblast
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Price of Progress

2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island

Sideboard
1 Dismember
1 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Pyroblast
1 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Rough / Tumble
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Spell Pierce
1 Submerge
1 Surgical Extraction
1 True-Name Nemesis

b) Strategy

Your aim, like all tempo-decks, is to take full advantage of your resources, and to aggro your opponent out of the game. Your whole deck is made with this in mind. U/R Delver is all about synergy: burn, spot-removal, cantrips, and counters play vital roles, but also add up to Prowess-triggers.

c) Why should I play U/R Delver?

One of the last real Aggro-decks in the format, U/R Delver combines Burn with counters. The deck is great for learning your cantrips, and at the same time adding Prowess-triggers. Your burn-spells are there to clear the way, but also ending your opponent. Last, but not least, your counters help you to disrupt your opponent’s game, and yes, also add Prowess-triggers. While it should not be high on your list: U/R Delver can be your doorway to other Delver-decks, or even Sneak and Show (or Miracles).


ll. Card Choices

a) Main Deck

Creatures

4 Delver of Secrets
Delver is the most efficient threat that comes down for 1 mana. For this version of the “Delver” archetype the namesake card provides a consistent source of good damage where as other threats such as Monastery Swiftspear and Stormchaser Mage require spells being cast to make their damage output as efficient as the Delver.

4 Monastery Swiftspear
The Swifspear is an efficient 1-drop creature with haste and the ability to grow bigger and produce massive amounts of damage. When multiples of the Swiftspear or the Mage are in play each spell instead of adding one damage are adding 2 or even 3 damage to your attacks.

3-4 Stormchaser Mage
Stormchaser Mage is the addition to this deck in late January of 2015 that made this deck become a serious competitive deck again. Stormchaser Mage is somewhat awkward sometimes, being a 2 mana creature. However as said about the Swiftspear also applies, that multiples of either and spells in hand can have very explosive results. As well Stormchaser Mage’s 3 toughness in combination with Prowess make it very hard to kill with a Lightning Bolt. When your opponent goes to Lightning Bolt your Stormchaser Mage and you respond by casting a Brainstorm you have now essentially got them to completely waste a card.

0-2 Bedlam Reveler
Bedlam Reveler offers an amazing card off the top in the late game and thus a way out of a bad spot sometimes. The card does have its fair share of critics and fans though. Bedlam Reveler can sometimes stunt the progression of your game plan by being a dead card in your hand when you need cards to cast to stay ahead. Reveler can also be a card you need to cast and can tear your good hand apart. That said Bedlam Reveler can also help you refuel and present a massive threat that is very difficult to deal with for some opponents.

0-2 Snapcaster Mage
Snapcaster Mage is very useful as it can flashback a Lightning Bolt a Chain Lightning or in the most devastating fashion flashback a Price of Progress and attacks or blocks as a 2/1 as a nice consolation prize. That is the dream. However, many choose to eschew this mage due to it being somewhat slow and clunky.

0-1 Grim Lavamancer¬
With the number of fetchlands you crack and spells you cast you will almost always have fuel for Grim Lavamancer. With this fuel Grim Lavamancer can easily take over some games. Against Elves, Death&Taxes, Grixis Delver and Aluren Grim Lavamancer kills most relevant creatures, thus is a must answer threat for these decks. In addition Grim Lavamancer does a great job of ignoring blockers/clearing blockers to get damage through to the opponent.

0-1 True-Name Nemesis
The lists without Bedlam Reveler lack high impact threats for the late game. For the non-reveler lists the infamous Merfolk Rogue will be a great addition as it is a mini Progenitus. Resolving a True-Name Nemesis after a good start can often just lock up the game for you.

0-3 Soul-Scar Mage
The newest creature we can toy with. While it looks like a strictly worse Monastery Swiftspear, the addition of Soul-Scar Mage gives this deck more explosive potential. Generally, Soul-Scar Mage replaces 1 Stormchaser Mage and your other flex creatures, thus giving you an extra 2 creatures with Prowess. This means you are more likely to have turns where you cast 3-4 spells with 2 or more creatures with prowess on board resulting in a massive output of damage. Soul-Scar Mage also has a little side bonus of being able to essentially give your burn spells wither (deal damage to creatures in -1 -1 counters instead). It is a very niche ability but it can be relevant when battling Tarmogoyf and Gurmag Angler. The real reason to play this card is really that it gives you extra prowess creatures at 1 mana.

Burn spells

4 Lightning Bolt
Simply one of the best removal spells in the game. Efficient at 1 mana for 3 damage to a creature or has the ability to go directly to an opponent. With this sort of strategy you want to hold you Lightning Bolts for creatures primarily and bolts that don’t go to creatures will eventually end up going to your opponent’s face in an attempt to burn them out of the game.

4 Chain Lightning
This is almost exactly like Lightning Bolt however it is much worse. You will always cast these before casting you Lightning Bolts. Be careful with Chain Lightning as it can chain and take out your own creatures if your opponent has double red up. You want to make sure that the coast is clear before you cast this or have another double red up of your own to threaten throwing it back again.

0-1 Forked Bolt
Although not often Forked Bolt does take out 2 creatures and can be completely devastating. More often it is used to kill a single creature or kill a creature and go upstairs. Forked Bolt going upstairs is not always that great on the down side and against some decks Forked Bolt isn’t going to kill creatures. Despite this having 1 can be very useful and is extremely good at times.

2-3 Price of Progress
Price of Progress is very good at punishing people and their greedy manabases. Price of Progress can deal lethal blows to decks like Lands, Aggro Loam, and Eldrazi even after they gain a bunch of life with Glimmerpost. It is also great at dealing 4-6 damage against other Delver decks, Death&Taxes, and various BUG decks. Price can sporadically be good against decks like Sneak&Show, Infect and Elves as well. Despite the very high upside of this card it can be almost dead against decks like Miracles that play many basics. However there are some very niche uses for Price that include forcing opponents to crack fetchlands especially when they want to flip their Sensei’s Top.

0-1 Fireblast
Fireblast can end games suddenly and for no mana too. Given that it is a “free” spell it goes very nicely with Monastery Swiftspear or Stormchaser Mage. Often the 4th damage is extremely relevant when pointing it at your opponent. Fireblast in a pinch can be used to kill creatures but in that position things are not looking well. Despite these great things about Fireblast is it is heavily taxed by Wasteland and at times it can be clunky.

0-1 Thunderous Wrath
5 damage for 1 mana is off the charts efficient, however the catch is you must set it up or randomly miracle it to be able to cast it. The other downside is that it can get stuck in your hand and you will have to find a Brainstorm to put it back to make it castable, otherwise it can really slow you down by being an uncastable dead card in your hand.

Cantrips

4 Brainstorm
Simply the best card in Legacy. Brainstorm is a very fun card for its applications, because many decks want to cast it differently. The ideal use for Brainstorm is the start of a combo turn. Brainstorm can literally just become Ancestral Recall in that spot as there are bound to be a couple useless cards in your hand. Brainstorming in this spot is an attempt to find gas to start a fiery storm of Lightning Bolts, Gitaxian Probes, and Prowess triggers. Brainstorm also serves the usual purpose of being able to find gas on non-combo turns to help you get some pressure. Brainstorm lastly serves the purpose that all Brainstorms ubiquitously share, hiding information, finding land or finding spells.

4 Ponder
Ponder in this serves the purpose that all Ponders do. Find what you need when you need it. Ponder isn’t incredible during combo turns however. It does do the job though of finding 1 extra Lightning Bolt, or setting a Gitaxian Probe into a Lightning Bolt. Ponder mostly serves the usual purpose of finding land or spells.

4 Gitaxian Probe
Gitaxian Probe (in my opinion) should be played in a deck if that deck has the potential to exploit Gitaxian Probe. Here Gitaxian Probe is exploited because it is a free spell that triggers Prowess on potentially multiple creatures, increasing your damage output and lastly it even replaces itself. Gitaxian Probe can also be used to aid your decision making weather to fetch a basic or to fetch a dual, weather to commit more to the board or to hold up removal.

Counter Magic

Our aggressive playstyle and ability to finish the game by comboing our opponent out makes us want to play only free counters. This is because cards like Spell Pierce and Spell Snare cost mana and can become clunky, taking away from the pressure we create. Other builds of this deck do run some number of Spell Pierce and Spell Snare, however these builds are definitely on the more controlling side with cards like Young Pyromancer.

4 Daze
Daze is by far the most efficient legal counterspell on turns 1-2 and sometimes even turn 3. The cost of Daze is to pick up a land which can in turn actually protect us from a Wasteland. There is not much quite like turn 1 Delver, Daze your spell, and next turn flip Delver and beat face. Daze also has some very funny utility on a combo turn as well and is usually the card that enables turn 3 kills. You can cast a spell holding priority Daze it, and either pay for the Daze or holding priority again counter your own Daze for prowess triggers. If you haven’t made a land drop it can also help out with that on those combo turns, allowing you to cast yet another spell.

3-4 Force of Will
The necessary evil of the format. Force of Will is terrible, however you need it in this format as an insurance policy against anything that will just kill you out of the blue. Force of Will is the counterspell you cling to playing this deck, as you don’t have access to cards like Spell Pierce, and thus is realistically all we have to fight fast combo in game 1. Force of Will also has the same kind of funny utility on combo turns as Daze does but that doesn’t need to be repeated again. Lately, people have opted to play three Force of Wills in the main. Pitching a card can be problematic, as we don't recover as good from card-disadvantage, as other decks. Besides, we need all our spells for Prowess.

Manabase

4 Scalding Tarn
Scalding Tarn is our golden fetchland. If you have access to the land you want through another fetchland, use that one first before using Scalding Tarn. Otherwise there isn’t much else to say other than play your fetchlands as a normal blue deck would.

4-6 Other Blue Fetchlands
These fetch Volcanic Island and basic Islands.

0-2 Other Red Fetchlands
These fetch Volcanic Island and basic Mountains.

3-4 Volcanic Island
Volcanic Island is our U/R dual land. The difference between running 3 or 4 is very much up to the player and how they like to sequence their mana.

2-3 Island[cards]
Island is your Wasteland proof source of blue mana.

1-2 [cards]Mountain
Mountain is your Wasteland proof source of red mana.

b) Sideboard

1-2 Flusterstorm
Flusterstorm is very important to being able to fight combo. You are not favoured in combo matchups and will need the help of Flusterstorm to aid in counter fights.

1-3 Pyroblast
Pyroblast is great in combo matchups (aside from Storm) as a super-efficient 1 mana counterspell for stuff like Show and Tell or fighting their Force of Wills, Dazes, etc. Pyroblast is also excellent against almost any other blue deck as well, such as Miracles, and other Delver decks.

2 Smash to Smithereens
With the rise of Death&Taxes also comes more Stoneforge Mysitics. As well the Bant Deathblade decks are out there and bringing the rise of Storneforge Mystic. This deck will fold to a Jitte, or an unanswered Batterskull. Expecting to see more Death&Taxes than ever Smash to Smithereens is a must, to be able to answer the equipment that will inevitably give you a lot of trouble. Chalice of the Void also being a very prevalent card is a must answer card and Smash to Smithereens is your number 1 answer to this card.

1 Winter Orb
(This is TheManWithaPlan’s not totally biased opinion) Winter Orb is great against many mana hungry decks like Miracles or any Punishing Fire deck. These aren’t great matchups and you will need a bullet for them. Winter Orb punishes these mana hungry decks by making it so that they can’t dump mana into doing things on your end step, whereas U/R Delver is perfectly comfortable with the restrictions that Winter Orb puts on both players.

2 Surgical Extraction
Surgical Extraction takes specific combo pieces out of your opponent’s deck once they hit the graveyard and can be game breaking if that happens. Extracting Show and Tell can often mean that the game is over because they have to find Sneak Attack while under the gun and they will likely have very little time to find it. Surgical can also take out Swords to Plowshares or Terminus against Miracles aiding in your effort to keep pressure on your opponent.

1 Pithing Needle
The needle is great against decks like Death&Taxes, Miracles, Aluren, Sneak and Show and Lands. Shutting off things like Stoneforge Mystic, Ghost Quarter, Thespian’s Stage, Cavern Harpy, and Sensei’s Divining Top are very important to suppressing your opponent’s ability to stop your game plan.

1 Null Rod
Null Rod does mostly the same thing as Pithing Needle, but the fact it shuts off all artifacts. It has some different utility that Pithing Needle because of that fact. It can shut off all the mana rocks in Storm, AEther Vials, Jittes, Swords, Tops etc. However it can’t shut off things like Thespian Stage, Ghost Quarter, Cavern Harpy, or Sneak Attack.

1-2 Rough//Tumble
Rough is the side you will be casting if you are curious. It is essentially a one sided Pyroclasm against decks like Death&Taxes, Elves and even Grixis Delver to an extent. Due to these decks having a high density of ground creatures with 2 or less toughness, these decks can fold to a big Rough//Tumble.

1-2 Eidolon of the Great Revel or Pyrostatic Pillar
These cards can help you stay ahead in racing situations against other Delver decks, due to your high density of burn spells. These cards also help your Miracles matchup greatly if they don’t have a Top in play to dig. Forcing them to dig with cantrips into an Eidolon or Pillar will be very perilous for them and could cost them the game if they go too far.

1-2 Price of Progress
Due to your resilient manabase you can use cards like Price of Progress to your advantage. It is also your greatest tool against Lands, Eldrazi and BG/X decks that want to attrition you out. Having access to extra Prices of Progress will prove to be a boon when playing against these decks.

1 Blood Moon
Blood Moon, like Price of Progress, is great due to your resilient, basic heavy manabase. It can shut off a lot of Eldrazi’s best creatures, as well as lock these BG/X decks, lands, and Aggro Loam out of the game. As well, Blood Moon being a 3 drop could end up being a liability due to it being kind of slow.

1 True-Name Nemesis
The fabled Merfolk Rogue is very good at closing out games that have already gotten far. He threatens to end the game almost unconditionally and can be unanswerable for some fair decks. It is also great against the decks that are looking to grind out games like Shardless BUG, Delver, Death&Taxes etc.

1 Grim Lavamancer
Having access to repeatable removal is very great, and allows you to start pointing burn at your opponent’s face while the Lavamancer takes care of the creatures. The lavamancer, like Rough//Tumble can wreck decks that have a high density of low toughness creatures like Delver, Death&Taxes, Elves, Infect and even some other decks like Shardless BUG or Jund.

1 Dismember
Dismember is a great catch-all removal spell to take out bigger creatures like Tarmogoyf, Gurmag Agnler and Thought-Knot Seer that this deck usually has trouble dealing with if the opponent gets ahead or gets to a position where they can race you.

1-2 Grafdigger’s Cage
The cage is extremely potent graveyard hate, especially in a metagame full of Reanimator. It also has the side bonus of hitting Dredge. If unanswered reanimator based decks have no way to function other than getting around the cage. It also has some splash damage against Storm being as it is able to completely shut down Past in Flames.

1 Izzet Staticaster
Staticaster is an excellent option to machine gun down a bunch of small 1 toughness creatures. It comes out at flash speed and has haste, so it can start wrecking your opponent on their turn and immediately. It is an excellent option for controlling Elves, Death&Taxes, Lingering Souls (if you live in Toronto) etc.

1 Sudden Demise
Sudden Demise is a more flexible option than Rough// Tumble, as it catches fliers and can do more than 2 damage. However, it is more expensive and only hits creatures of 1 colour.

0-1 Force of Will
To complement your maindeck 3-of.

0-1 Vendilion Clique
Vendilion Clique is mostly here as hand attack against combo decks, and conveniently comes with a 3/1 flying body. It is also another creature in matchups where you will need more creatures and probably want to board out Force of Will.

1 Spell Pierce
This is mainly to combat combo decks. UR Delver needs more interaction than it already has, to beat combo. In addition, Spell Pierce is great as extra cheap interaction in matchups where you want to board out Force of Will.

[Chatto]

lll. Variants of U/R Delver

a) Bedlam Reveler Build
The Bedlam Reveler list looks very similar to the non-reveler lists, just that it has the Bedlam Reveler as an additional threat over True-Name Nemesis, Grim Lavamancer etc. The deck usually relies more on chaining cantrips into more cantrips where some criticize the list for its somewhat wasteful use of cantrips. Despite that Bedlam Reveler is a force to reckon with and can pose serious threats of damage as well as refueling an empty hand with 3 fresh cards when the reveler enters.
Grand Prix Chiba 2016, 13th Place Takuto Miyazima (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/518601)

b) Non-Reveler Build
The Non-Reveler build of U/R Delver chooses to eschew the obvious power of Bedlam Reveler in favour of casting their cantrips more conservatively and a sleeker mana curve, due to Bedlam Reveler’s obvious flaws being as it is able to screw up your game plan by being in your hand.
Grand Prix Chiba 2016, 11th Place Takumi Matuura (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/518599)

c) The Control Build
The Control build of U/R Delver aims to play a game very similar to decks like Grixis or 4C Delver. Using mana denial elements like Wasteland and Stifle to go along with better late game cards like True-Name Nemesis, Young Pyromancer and Snapcaster Mage causes the deck to slow down and thus, eschew the fast streamlined core of Stormchaser Mage and Monastery Swiftspear. The build plays no Chain Lightnings and no Prices of Progress as it aims to grind better, making room for Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, more lands and the Stifles.
Grand Prix Chiba 2016, Trial Winners Wataru Mishima and Shogaku Aihara (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/this-week-in-legacy-gp-chiba)

lV. Matchups

The Mirror
This matchup is quite strange. You would expect this matchup to be just like other Delver-mirrors, completely one sided and boring, but it is far from that. Both sides are going to be trying to jockey for positioning and win the game with small creatures that grow. Both sides have access to an abundance of removal and cantrips. This means that Monastery Swiftspears, Soul-Scar Mages and Stormchaser Mages will stick around for a while, while Delvers will quickly get burned. Prowess creatures can be very tough to kill, making the game go longer as players will sometimes bounce creatures off each other and other times be intimidated if the opposing player has several cards in hand. Games going long also means players get to make landdrops and suddenly hard casting Force of Will becomes very possible. Cards like Bedlam Reveler, Cryptic Serpent and True-Name Nemesis become very good in this matchup because the games can go so long. That said, this matchup can play out very similarly to a traditional Delver Mirror, where one player is just tempoed out of the game, or is simply outraced. Playing this matchup, you want to cash in your Chain Lightnings early, while your opponent doesn’t have mana up to bounce it. You also usually can’t afford to hold up mana for Chain Lightning anyway. You want to hold your Chain Lightnings and Lightning Bolts for opposing creatures. You want to fetch for basic lands, despite Price of Progress being mediocre in this matchup, but it can just kill you out of nowhere if you aren’t careful. You need to get ahead of your opponent with your 1 power creatures that are scary to try to kill. There aren’t many cards you actually want to expend Force of Will on in this matchup, but cards like Grim Lavamancer, True-Name Nemesis, Bedlam Reveler are certainly deserving of a Force. It is rare, but you will sometimes have to Force of Will a burn spell on your creature, or an opposing creature just for the tempo advantage. Delver of Secrets never lives, so don’t try to protect it very much.
Sideboarding
In this matchup, we are looking to bring in more cheap interaction. Pyroblast kills Delver and Stormchaser outright, and counters opposing Forces of Will, and cantrips. Flusterstorm is great when fighting counter wars over removal spells or crucial cantrips. Grim Lavamancer, despite only being able to do 2 damage at a time, is still excellent in this matchup. It will surprise you how often Grim Lavamancer kills opposing prowess creatures with no fight at all from the opponent. Since this matchup can be quite grindy, cards like Bedlam Reveler and True-Name Nemesis will have the time to excel in this matchup and can completely turn the tides of a game, as they are both difficult to answer if they stick.

Elves
Elves is a heavily creature based combo deck. It relies on critical mass to be able to be effective so, they will try to swarm the board with little green creatures, make lots of mana and try to make a Craterhoof Behemoth appear on their battlefield, buffing all their creatures and kill you in one swing. Elves can also play a long game with card advantage engines in Glimpse of Nature and Elvish Visionary with Wirewood Symbiote. Be careful though, Glimpse of Nature can just kill you out of nowhere. Since Elves is a critical mass deck multiple Lightning Bolts can stop them from doing much, however Elves is well positioned against decks that are stuffed with spotremoval, with their card advantage engines helping them to outlast these decks. Elves can falter with their important creatures being killed under a quick clock though. Against Elves, you want to start out early with a Delver ideally. Ground creatures can quickly get stumped by a combination of any elf and Wirewood Symbiote or Quirrion Ranger and Dryad Arbor. You will want to quickly follow up by deploying more threats, ideally Delver or Stormchaser Mage, and/or start killing creatures. You should be keenly aware of their ability to Natural Order after turn 2, and if you haven’t been able to keep their creatures at bay, you will have to be wary of a very large Green Sun’s Zenith as well. This means you will probably want to have a Force of Will in your hand past turn 2, and if you have to use it, you want to find another quickly. Going later into the game, Price of Progress is strangely good, and can often blow an Elves opponent away when you have a good start. Price of Progress will count a Gaea’s Cradle, Dryad Arbors and Bayous, which can get Price of Progress to hit for very high numbers. Speaking of Price of Progress, it is recommended to not fetch to play around your own Price of Progress, but it is up to you if you feel you need to or not.

Sideboarding
Since Elves is a critical mass deck, specifically needing a lot of creatures, sweepers are excellent. More disruption for their combo can also be very good as well. Rough//Tumble, Sudden Demise and Izzet Staticaster are great in this matchup because they kill multiple creatures and only require 1 card to do so. Grim Lavamancer is also excellent in this matchup, but it can be a little slow, and early in the game can be contested with your opponent’s Deathrite Shamans. Submerge is another card that is decent in this matchup. If they manage to pull off a Natural Order for Craterhoof Behemoth without a ton of creatures on the board, submerge can be a blowout, letting you survive what would be a lethal attack and getting a 5/5 off the table. For hating out their combo, Grafdigger’s Cage is probably your best option. It shuts off Green Sun’s Zenith, Natural Order and using a fetchland to get Dryad Arbor. However, do be wary of Reclamation Sage, as it can blow up the Cage and then they can just combo you right there. Vendilion Clique is decent in this matchup as it gives you an evasive body and can take a Natural Order or Green Sun’s Zenith. Spell Pierce is quite poor in this matchup, due to Elves’ ability to make tonnes of mana and pay through Spell Pierce on a Natural Order or Green Sun’s Zenith. Elves is very venerable an early Eidolon of the Great Revel, because it will really pressure them to kill you quickly as they will be taking a lot of damage from the Eidolon.

Death&Taxes
Death&Taxes has the ability to tax your spells and then shut out your mana with Rishadan Port and Wasteland. They can shut you out of the game almost entirely with a Sanctum Prelate on 1 and Stoneforge Mystic can be a big problem if unanswered. Despite this since the advent of Sanctum Prelate and Recruiter of the Guard this matchup has ironically become better. Them slowing down to add more clunky 3 drops to their deck have made many Death&Taxes players move away from things like Serra Avenger and Vryn Wingmare which were a real nuisance when it came to executing our game plan as these stupid fliers would always get in the way of our Delvers and Stormchasers. Now that they have moved away from the fliers our Delvers and Stormchasers are almost free to attack past uninterrupted. Past that all their creatures die to our eight Lightning Bolts.
In this matchup we want to be attacking them as aggressively as possible to try to get their life total as low as possible before they land a Sanctum Prelate. Prioritize killing Thalia, Stoneforge Mystic, and their Fliers before firing your Bolts at their face. You want to counter AEther Vials, Stoneforge Mystics and anything that will tax your spells. Stoneforge Mystic is almost the most important card to counter due to its ability to take over the game by putting a Jitte or Batterskull into play in an uncounterable way.

Sideboarding
In this matchup we want ways to deal with their hatebears and ways to attack the Stoneforge Mystic package. Additional things we can do are ad more evasive threats to get around their ability to clog up the ground. Killing multiple hatebears with Rough//Tumble can break the game for them. Grim Lavamancer or Izzet Staticaster can also do this but in a slower fashion, however it is slower but it does feel like a plan to lock them out of creatures which is still okay. Smash to Smithereens, Pithing Needle and Null Rod really stunt the effectiveness of the Stoneforge Mystic package. Shutting off Jitte, Batterskull, Sword of Fire and Ice or Stoneforge Mystic is very valuable and destroying the equipment all together is usually even better. As well blowing up or shutting off AEther Vial is quite good because it stops surprise blockers from ever happening. Vendilion Clique is also an effective way to disrupt Stoneforge Mystic and AEther Vial. If you have True-Name Nemesis in your sideboard bring it in, it is very difficult for Death&Taxes to deal with and threatens to end the game quickly in combination with your Lightning Bolts, Chain Lightnings, and Prices of Progress.

Lands

Lands is a hardcore prison deck with a combo finish. They will try to control your board as well as attack your manabase in attempt to lock you out of the game. They will use The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Punishing Fire, Maze of Ith and even Molten Vortex to control your creatures, while using Wasteland and Rishadan Port and/or Ghost Quarter. Lands can also use Crop Rotation to get Glacial Chasm, which will stop all damage done to them, and allow them to have some breathing room. UR Delver, unlike many other builds of Delver decks, doesn’t just fold to Lands. Wastelands cannot touch our basic heavy manabase, Ghost Quarter will have to do a lot of work to start becoming effective. Rishadan Port is very good but it being a land that sticks on the battlefield means more damage from Price of Progress. In addition, Punishing Fire is much worse against a threat base with Stormchaser Mages and Monastery Swiftspears. It is usually quite easy to get a Monastery Swiftspear to survive a Punishing Fire, and it will take a lot of work to kill a Stormchaser Mage.
Against Lands, you want to come out early and kill them quickly. You will also want to ensure your manabase is safe, so prioritize fetching for basic lands. You will want to have early creatures like Delver of Secrets and Monastery Swiftspear to start attacking the opponent’s life total before they can get going so that you are set up to burn them out or have resilient your resilient creatures in Swiftspear, Stormchaser and even True-Name Nemesis close out the game. You cannot let Gamble or Crop Rotation resolve, as Gamble will usually be going for a Life From the Loam, mana acceleration or a crucial land. Crop Rotation will do much the same, so you can’t let it resolve either. You usually want to stop Explorations or Manabonds as it can slow them down and allow you to take advantage of slowing them down to get under them.

Lands is a deck that relies heavily on recursive cards in Life From the Loam and Punishing Fire so you want to do what you can to shut these engines off. Lands also has trouble dealing with creatures they can’t Maze or Punishing Fire. Ways to interact or stop the Dark Depths, Thespian’s Stage combo will also be helpful at times. Lastly, Lands can have trouble in the face of powerful nonbasic land hate. Surgical Extraction is by far the premier tool for making sure that Life From the Loam or Punishing Fire don’t come back. It can also get Dark Depths or Thespian’s Stage to stop the combo. You can take out Wasteland or Ghost Quarter to protect your manabase if you really need to. Vendilion Clique is another good way to disrupt the Life From the Loam engine and, although not often, can tag a Punishing Fire. True-Name Nemesis is a creature that Lands can have a lot of trouble with, so if you have it, you likely want it in this matchup, as it doesn’t care about Maze of Ith or Punishing Fire. Powerful nonbasic hate like extra copies of Price of Progress or Blood Moon can be absolutely devastating to a lands player and can often just win you the game.


ANT

Ad Nauseam Tendrils (ANT) is a fast Storm combo deck that will try to cast 10 spells in a turn finishing with a Tendrils of Agony to kill you. ANT can consistently go off on the third turn after setting up and disrupting you for the fist couple of turns, with their good draws. As UR Delver your ways of interacting mainboard are usually just 4 Force of Will and 4 Daze, which is usually not enough to stop ANT from going off. However, UR Delver has a much faster clock than many other variants of Delver, which is an upside, but it doesn’t quite compensate for the lack of enough interaction. This being a matchup where both decks can kill relatively quickly, it will often come down to a race. Can the ANT player setup and clear the way to go off before the UR Delver player can kill the ANT player? As mentioned before, ANT can go off through disruption as early as turn 3, thus UR Delver could have trouble finding enough disruption in time. ANT must win quickly and can’t draw poorly because any stumble can be fatal. One of ANT’s best lines for winning quickly is going for an Ad Nauseam, which is very risky when playing against a deck that is aggressively attacking their life total.
In this matchup you want to go pedal to the metal and try to kill the ANT player as fast as you can. You are going to want to start with an early threat, like a Monastery Swiftspear or a Delver of Secrets. On turn 2 you want to start trying to find counter magic to protect yourself from their combo. If you can follow up with a threat like a Monastery Swiftspear, that would be excellent. Gitaxian Probe can be very great on turn two, because it can tell you weather or not to use your Brainstorms and Ponders to try to find your Forces of Will and Dazes or step on the gas and try to kill the opponent faster. Past this point you are either trying to find Forces and Dazes, or, if you have a couple pieces of counter magic, deploy more threats and burn spells to try to end the game.


Sideboarding

Against ANT we need extra interaction to stop their combo. We can also use hateful permanents to make it much harder for them to combo. Surgical Extraction can remove cantrips, Rituals or Infernal Tutor, which can be devastating, but Surgical can also be mediocre in spots where there are redundant rituals or tutors. Extra counter magic in Flusterstorm and Spell Pierce are a must to augment your existing counter suite. Vendilion Clique is excellent, because it disrupts the opponent at instant speed and it is a 3-power creature ready to beat down. For hateful permanents, Grafdigger’s Cage will just shut off Past in Flames, however doesn’t do anything against Empty the Warrens, nonetheless it is still very good because Ad Nauseam is quite risky. Null Rod will shut off Lotus Petal, and more importantly Lion’s Eye Diamond, which will make it much harder to get hellbent for an Infernal Tutor. Eidolon of the Great Revel is the ultimate hate piece, because your opponent needs to cast several spells costing 3 or less mana to kill you, and that means they have to take lots of damage. With the amount of burn in UR Delver, it will be very difficult to win through an Eidolon.



Eldrazi
Eldrazi is a deck that aims to play large creatures like Thought-Knot Seer and Reality Smasher on turn 2 or 3 with the help of up to 16 (!) sol lands and they get to play Chalice of the Void as a consolation prize. With their ability to play big creatures quickly they can generate a very fast clock very quickly. They also play a full set of Cavern of Souls which will keep you off of Dazing and Forcing their creatures. The other problem is Chalice of the Void which can almost lock you out of the game entirely. The downside to this seemingly broken deck is that it is inconsistent and that despite the large amount of mana they can produce very quickly they are very venerable to Daze. As well the mana they produce is entirely coming from nonbasic lands and is heavily punished by Price of Progress. The deck also has the capability to deal a lot of damage to itself with Ancient Tomb and Dismember[cards]/. Eldrazi also has no protection from fliers without a blue splash for [cards]Eldrazi Skyspawner, but you normally just see White Eldrazi or Colourless Eldrazi.
For this matchup you want to be able to stop the potential turn 1 Chalice of the Void with a Daze or a Force, or you hope that they don’t have it. The ideal threats to land are Delver of Secrets and Stormchaser Mage. These fly and Eldrazi doesn’t have a good way of dealing with fliers, so they will be able to get in lots of damage against them. Ancient Tomb can also help you race them due to it dealing damage to them every time they tap it for mana. The next step is to keep their Thought-Knot Seers and Reality Smashers at bay by Dazing and Forcing them. Through this if you have flying threats on the table you should be able to just ride them to victory along with a couple Lightning Bolts, Chain Lightnings or a Price of Progress.

Sideboarding
There are really only 2 things you want to be doing with your sideboard. You want a way to deal with Chalice of the Void and you want to punish their extremely greedy manabase. Smash to Smithereens is your answer to Chalice of the Void and can also catch Ratchet Bomb out of their sideboard. Extra Prices of Progress out of your sideboard can be devastating to their greedy manabase and Dismembers. Once again if you have the True-Name Nemesis it will block Thought-Knot Seers, Eldrazi Mimics, and Endless Ones forever and can turn the corner when needed.

Shardless BUG
Shardless is an attrition based deck built on 2 for 1’s. They will try to kill your creatures with Abrupt Decay and Liliana of the Veil and make you discard your burn spells and creatures with Thoughtseize and Hymn to Tourach. Once they cripple your hand and your board they will get ahead of you and try to race you with Deathrite Shamans, Tarmogoyfs and Shardless Agents. Again their manabase is very greedy and will be punished by Price of Progress quite heavily. You can get ahead of them but don’t expect to be ahead of Shardless BUG for too long because they will catch up and it will start to look grim very quickly.
You should approach this matchup trying to be a burn deck or trying to combo quickly. You want to find enough creatures so that you can weather a couple Abrupt Decays and you also want to find your Prices of Progress. You want to kill them quickly before they get to cast cards like Ancestral Vision and take over the game with insurmountable card advantage. If they get to resolve one they will have Abrupt Decays Tarmogoyfs and Lilianas for days and it will be very difficult to overcome that. Despite your best efforts to be a burn deck you need creatures to win, so hold your bots for Deathrite Shaman and Baleful Strix. You will want to force them to have answers to your creatures and pressure their life total to the best of your ability.

Sideboarding
In this matchup you want to punish their greedy manabase and add elements that allow you to grind a bit better. Gaining access to excess Prices of Progress is one of the best ways to punish Shardless BUG’s greedy manabase and get you far in the race against the ticking time bomb of them taking over the game. Blood Moon can also come in to severely hinder their manabase, and in combination with zapping Deathrite Shamans can really put the bind on them. To grind better, nullifying Tarmogoyfs and Deathrite Shamans can really help. Graveyard hate like Relic of Progenitus can control graveyards and blow away graveyards at your will. Sulfuric Vortex can offer a constant source of damage and negates Deathrite Shaman’s lifegain ability and combined with a creature can really put the pedal to the metal. True-Name Nemesis is also spectacular in this matchup with Shardless BUG’s only out to it being Toxic Deluge. They will also likely Deluge for very high numbers if you have prowess creatures on the board and you can reap huge advantages from that. One last note is that TheManWithaPlan recommends boarding in 1 Smash to Smithereens to pick off random Baleful Strix and Shardless Agents and get some damage in the process.

Infect
Infect plays pretty much only x/1 creatures that all die to Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning. Infect wants to pump these x/1 creatures with cards like Invigorate, Vines of Vastwood and Become Immense to try to inflict 10 points of damage in poison counters to you as fast as possible. Not only do these pump spells pump however they also protect their small creatures from dying to a lot of damage based removal. They also have Force of Will, Daze and Spell Pierce/ Flusterstorm to protect their creatures. However that does not deny the fact that all their creatures die to Lightning Bolt and are blocked effectively by some of your creatures like Stormchaser Mage (it blocks Inkmoth Nexus!) and Monastery Swiftspear forcing them to have a pump spell if you are opting to block their creatures. The important thing to remember is to attempt to kill creatures during your turn or on your opponent’s turn after their combat step.
In this matchup we want to pretty much play a very traditional Delver game. We want to land an early threat like Delver or Monastery Swiftspear to start attacking with. From there it is again important to deal with their creatures first. It is especially important that you hang on to your removal spells until you can just burn them, whereas in other matchups you can afford to start slinging bolts at their face a little earlier. This is because if they can get a creature, they can easily kill you out of absolutely nowhere. They can even get Inkmoth Nexus via Crop Rotation. It is crucial that you fight the opponent with your countermagic if they decide to protect it with countermagic or pump spells to try to strangle your opponent’s board presence. An additional note is that games can end quite abruptly and unexpectedly due to Price of Progress hitting for numbers like 8. Infect hits lots of land drops and only has 1 basic land in their deck and the rest of the lands in their deck being Pendelhaven, Inkmoth Nexus, fetchlands and Tropical Islands.

Sideboarding
For this matchup you want to mostly kill all their creatures. Sometimes killing all their creatures means getting into fights over 1 creature and you will need backup to fight those. Any removal from Forked Bolt to Rough//Tumble comes in for this matchup as overloading on removal will help you to achieve your goal of strangling your opponent’s board presence while attacking with threats of your own. Other good cards you can bring in are Price of Progress to close out games faster being as it can deal 4-6 damage on average. Vendilion Clique can be a great surprise blocker as well as giving you information on your opponent’s hand which is very, very valuable in this matchup.

B/R Reanimator
The B/R Reanimator decks are extremely consistent in getting a Griselbrand or Sire of Insanity into play on turn 1 on a goldfish. This is naturally very intimidating. To make it even more so they have can do it through disruption on turn 1 as well with Thoughtseize, Collective Brutality or Chancellor of the Annex. You have to make sure that you are prepared to take a loss in game 1 if you lose the die roll. If you end up on the play you can fight through Chancellor of the Annex and still have Force of Will or Daze ready to go. On the draw you have to hope that they just don’t have a lethal combination so quickly and hoping they won’t go for it is like hoping the reserve list will go away tomorrow. This matchup will likely come down to the first couple of turns and will not take long. Another big thing to remember is it is very possible to out race a Griselbrand. It has been done on camera. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIOGW5-baso)
What you want to do in this matchup is stunting their first couple of turns and get their life total low quickly as to turn off Reanimate. The first thing you want to do is get creatures into play to pressure their life total. As for what to counter the Reanimate effects or the Entomb effects. You usually want to prioritize countering their Entomb effects due to them having less of them and by doing this you can strand the Reanimate effects in their hand. In this matchup you also want to be firing your burn spells off sequencing as if you are goldfishing.

Sideboarding
For Sideboarding you are looking to just stop them from reanimating creatures. Surgical Extraction is an all-star for turn 0 interaction to go along with Force of Will. On turn 1 you can drop Grafdigger’s Cage or Relic of Progenitus (the relic can be a bit slow) and that will make your opponent have to jump through some hoops to get a creature into play. Extra counterspells like Flusterstorm can help you reassure yourself against their fast combo. Lastly bounce spells like Vapor Snag can also be all-stars bouncing their creatures and forcing them to get them into play a second time can be absolutely game breaking.

Sneak&Show
Sneak&Show wants to get an Emrakul or Griselbrand into play around turns 2-4 as possible via. Show and Tell or Sneak Attack and kill you with it. More recently Sneak&Show has adopted Omniscience as another combo piece and is much harder to beat once in play. As well, they can usually combo with backup, whether it be redundant Show and Tells/Sneak Attacks or counter backup in the form of Force of Will, Spell Pierce and sometimes even Misdirection. With only 7-8 pieces of disruption only in the form of Dazes and Forces, it will be tough to beat them in a counter war. Racing them will also prove to be difficult as they are able to combo with backup usually turn 3-4, while your best racing hands goldfish around turns 3-4. Put simply, they are faster than you.
In this matchup, you want to try to play out your game plan similarly to that of Grixis Delver. You want to land ideally a Delver on turn 1 and hold up counterspells to fight a counter war over Show and Tell or Sneak Attack. Naturally your deck will be more aggressive so your game plan will be to have that turn 1 threat followed up by likely another threat or two while holding up counters and try to end the game quickly before they are able to sculpt a perfect hand.

Sideboarding
For this matchup, you want more ways to fight their combo. Pyroblast and Flusterstorm are all stars because of their high efficiency. Pithing Needle on Sneak Attack shuts off 4 combo pieces without fighting the combo piece on the stack. If you have Eidolon of the Great Revel in your sideboard it can be highly effective in this matchup, as it is able to really punish them for digging to their combo and is often very effective against many Omniscience based ways of them killing you. Any additional disruption like Surgical Extraction or Vendilion Clique can also be very helpful. Surgical can remove all copies of Show and Tell from their deck if you do manage to counter one. Another useful application of Surgical Extraction is to rip cantrips out of their deck while their time to combo is running very low as a way of preventing them from finding the combo just in time to beat your clock. Vendilion Clique is great with a Show and Tell on the stack because it can strip a combo piece from their hand before they get to put it into play. It can also be very useful in the draw step or end step as a way to pick apart their combo preemptively.

Grixis Delver
Grixis Delver is a deck that will try to stay very low to the ground and play very cheap and efficiently costed spells. They also have a lot of cheap, efficient interaction in Cabal Therapy to strip cards from your hand, potentially getting multiples, Lightning Bolt to kill your Delvers and Swiftspears, and Wasteland to blow up your Volcanic Islands. Their manabase however, is extremely greedy. 8 fetchlands, 6 duals, no basics, and 4 Wastelands. This means that they can be very venerable to Price of Progress, however a good Grixis Delver pilot will only play the lands that they have to and sandbag the rest for future Brainstorm fodder. Another thing that will happen is them leaving Wastelands in play to soften the blow from Price of Progress.
For this matchup, we are naturally lower to the ground than Grixis Delver which is to our advantage. You will want to play aggressively and try to maintain that advantage as the game starts to go later. Grixis Delver can have a tough time handling a lot of early aggression which we capitalize on by deploying multiple creatures on the first few turns. Grixis Delver can have the ability to deal with your threats and deploy a threat of their own, like Young Pyromancer, Delver or Deathrite Shaman, to try to keep up. This plan can be answered effectively by your 8 Lightning Bolt effects and allow you to take back control of the game. That said it is more important to save your Lightning Bolts for their creatures to keep them further behind than to go to their face.

Sideboarding
Against Grixis Delver, you want cheap interaction and ways to punish their greedy manabase. You could also board in some of your sweeper effects. Pyroblast and Flusterstorm are great options for this matchup, due to their extreme efficiency and potency. Sudden Demise could also be great, taking out a wave of Pyromancer tokens along with the Pyromancer. It also takes out Delvers, and Deathrites but be careful of your own Delvers. Price of Progress and Blood Moon do an excellent job of punishing Grixis Delver’s extremely greedy Manabase. Blood Moon can lock out their lands, but Deathrite Shaman can still carry them until it inevitably gets zapped. Price of Progress, with your basic heavy manabase can put you far ahead in the damage race. Eidolon of the Great Revel can be an effective way to keep ahead in a damage race against a comparable board presence, punishing your opponent for casting spells. Do be careful as it can punish you if you are behind.



V. Outside the Box

a) Already tested, bad card choices

Curious Homunculus // Voracious Reader
This card generated a little bit of excitement when first spoiled because its reverse side is pretty beefy. But ultimately there are very few spells we want to play in U/R Delver which include generic mana in their costs, so we can't get full value out of the card. Two-mana for a 1/1 is not efficient enough without that benefit.

Thing in the Ice // Awoken Horror
This card was hugely hyped on release, and has seen some play in BUG decks and in UR control lists in Legacy. But it never really made it into the standard UR Delver core. It may be too conditional to be worth two mana in the list, and it's pretty questionable as a topdeck in the mid or lategame.


b) To Be Tested Cards

Bomat Courier
This card needs more testing. The majority of theory on it is negative, but it's possible that it can provide enough card advantage to be useful in metagames where a 1/1 can reasonably expect to attack a few times. Jacob Saracino ran two at the 2016 SCG Baltimore Open to 10-5 finish, but his impressions are unknown.

c) Tested, Niche Potential

Goblin Guide
Guide was a staple of the pre-Khans of Tarkir lists, when it was needed to fill out the stable of aggressive one-drops. After the printing of Monastery Swiftspear, the marginal value of Guide has dropped. The margins in Legacy are thin enough that giving your opponent an extra card or two can lose you the game a real percentage of the time. A few lists play some copies as 9th or 10th 2+ power 1-drops, but it's rare these days. Playing Guide moves you more towards the "Blue Sligh" lists, where it's worth considering extra burn and cutting cantrips, so you can aim to shorten the game and accept higher variance to win quickly.

VI. Literature
a) U/R Delver Related

UR Delver Decklists on MTGtop8 (http://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=213)
Deck of the Day – Legacy UR Delver (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/deck-of-the-day-legacy-ur-delver/)

b) Legacy Related

Introduction to Legacy (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/this-week-in-legacy-introduction-to-legacy)
History of Legacy (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/the-history-of-legacy-modernism/)
Introdution to Delver (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/this-week-in-legacy-introduction-to-delver)
Introduction to Tempo (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/introduction-tempo-2006-09-30)
Tempo & The Best Delver Deck (http://www.mtgmintcard.com/articles/writers/philipp-sch%C3%B6negger/legacy-lessons-tempo-the-best-delver-deck)

c) General Magic Theory

Fishing Lessons – Pondering Brainstorm (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/19780_Fishing_Lessons_Pondering_Brainstorm.html)
Legacy Lessons – The Depth of Brainstorm (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-the-depth-of-brainstorm/)

d) Updates

* 16-04-2017: added Thunderous Wrath, Izzet Staticaster, Sudden Demise at the maindeck- and sideboard-section (TMWAP). Changed the numbers of Force of Will maindeck from 4 to 3-4, added Force of Will as a 0-1 to the Sideboard-section. Added Sneak&Show and Grixis to the MU-section (TMWAP).
* 12-07-2017: added Soul-Scar Mage at the maindeck-section, Vendillion Clique and Spell Pierce to sideboard-section (TMWAP). Added the Mirror-MU, Lands, Elves, and ANT to the MU-section (TMWAP). Removed Miracles (RIP SDT).

VII. Final Addendum

This Primer is written by TheManWithaPlan, Paradigm72, and me, Chatto. The layout is taken from the Goblin-primer (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31114-Deck-Vial-Goblins) (a legendary deck, some of you may know from the days of old). While decklists can be found in this primer, the main focus is to give you a general idea what this deck is all about.

The old thread, written by Beatusnox, can be found here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22676-Deck-U-R-Delver)

If you made it this far: thank you for reading.

Tournament Reports:

2017

- UR Delver, pateuglow, 4-2 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31294-U-R-Delver&p=994683&viewfull=1#post994683)
- UR Delver, Johnny Tempel, 6-0 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31294-U-R-Delver&p=995831&viewfull=1#post995831)
- UR Delver with Goblin Guides, CabalTherapy, 4-0 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31294-U-R-Delver&p=996193&viewfull=1#post996193)
- UR Delver, Smuggo, 1-4-1 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31294-U-R-Delver&p=996900&viewfull=1#post996900)
- UR Delver, Smuggo, 1-4-1 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31294-DTB-U-R-Delver&p=997042&viewfull=1#post997042)
- UR Delver with Lavamancers main, Johnny Tempel, 3-2 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31294-DTB-U-R-Delver&p=997042&viewfull=1#post997042)
- UR Delver with Clique and Reveler main, Stuuch, 5-0 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31294-DTB-U-R-Delver&p=1001969&viewfull=1#post1001969)
- UR Delver, with Goblin Guides cabalTherapy, 3-0-1 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31294-DTB-U-R-Delver&p=1003806&viewfull=1#post1003806)
- UR Delver with a TNN main, IslandDelverGo, 3-3 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31294-DTB-U-R-Delver&p=1005479&viewfull=1#post1005479)
- UR Delver also with a TNN main, FZA, 5-0 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31294-DTB-U-R-Delver&p=1005756&viewfull=1#post1005756)
- UR Delver with Thoght Scour main, DNSolver, 5-0 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31294-DTB-U-R-Delver&p=1013296&viewfull=1#post1013296)
- UR Delver with Soul-Scar Mage, Smuggo, 2-3 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31294-DTB-U-R-Delver&p=1018198&viewfull=1#post1018198)
- UR Delver with a TNN, TMWaP, 6-1-2 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31294-DTB-U-R-Delver&p=1018225&viewfull=1#post1018225)

[Chatto]

Reserved 2 of 2

[jattra]

Thanks guys.

What do you think about Fire/Ice?
Versatile card. And old, everybody knows it. But I like it instead of Forked bolt as a two-drop removal for Prelate.

[jwl3gg]

Awesome!

[Ruta Barracuda]

b) Strategy

Your aim, like all tempo-decks, is to take full advantage of your resources, and to aggro your opponent out of the game. Your whole deck is made with this in mind. U/R Delver is all about synergy: burn, spot-removal, cantrips, and counters play vital roles, but also add up to Prowess-triggers.

To flesh this out a little more, the difference between older UR Delver variants and the current incarnation is all about maximizing Prowess triggers. You often want to be saving your instant-speed cantrips and burn spells for after blockers are declared to maximize Prowess. This, of course, heavily depends upon the matchup; for example, saving Brainstorm to save your threats from something like Toxic Deluge is a good line keep in mind.

Regarding how to play the Miracles matchup, it's imperative to keep a turn 1 Top from resolving. Life gets much easier for you if you can do that, and much more difficult if Top is in play. I'm glad you noted not to overextend - that is key to winning the Miracles matchup. Holding back threats to make them run through their removal while you whittle them down is the right strategy. If you can get them to feel comfortable about fetching duals, even better - situations where you can burn out with Price of Progress in response to Counterbalance being cast can help you steal a win from them. (Just don't expect to be able to do that in games 2 & 3! They WILL fetch their basics in those games.) In sideboarding, I'm glad you mentioned Clique, but I feel you should also add that siding in Grim Lavamancer and Invasive Surgery help make games 2 and 3 more favorable. A resolved Invasive Surgery on Terminus can just be clutch, and Grim Lavamancer is a must-answer for them. If your meta is very heavy on Miracles, Exquisite Firecraft isn't such a bad sideboard choice either.

If possible, you might want to comment on the Grixis/4C Delver matchups as well! Thanks for writing an updated primer!

[paradigm72]

RE: Fire // Ice: I currently play this as a one-of in the main, for the exact reason you mentioned: a hedge against Prelate on 1. It's reasonable enough in all the other matchups too - occasionally getting a two-for-one and also sometimes dodging Counterbalance.

RE: Grim Lavamancer against Miracles: this one surprises me, he's usually one of my board-outs in order to get Vortex/Null Rod/Pyroblast/Sulfur Elemental in. If you're also upping your Grim Lavamancer card, what are you taking out of the main deck?

[Ruta Barracuda]

RE: Grim Lavamancer against Miracles: this one surprises me, he's usually one of my board-outs in order to get Vortex/Null Rod/Pyroblast/Sulfur Elemental in. If you're also upping your Grim Lavamancer card, what are you taking out of the main deck?

I run/ran a build similar to the Miyazima List (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/518601#online), except I run 3 PoP 3 Daze instead of 2 PoP, 4 Daze and my sideboard was a little different for my meta. I see more Legend Miracles in my meta than Predict Miracles, so I typically haven't had to board in Sulfur Elemental. It's been a while since I've been on UR Delver (been on other decks recently), but my boarding usually went something along the lines of -2 PoP -4 FoW +1 Pyroblast +1 REB +1 Flusterstorm +1 Sulfuric Vortex +1 Grim Lavamancer +1 Vendillion Clique. I would likely work in Invasive Surgery as well if I were to pick the deck back up. I had good experience with the Lavaman post-board because I would set him down early along with a Delver/Swiftspear to get in under Counterbalance (if it stuck) if I had him in hand and would do my best to keep Swords/Terminus at bay.

[TheManWithaPlan]

Thanks guys.

What do you think about Fire/Ice?
Versatile card. And old, everybody knows it. But I like it instead of Forked bolt as a two-drop removal for Prelate.

If you are looking to diversify the casting costs in your removal sweet to fight Sanctum Prelate Fire // Ice is an option and don't forget that Dismember is also an option. However I don't feel that this is necessary. I feel that just being more aggressive with establishing a board presence and firing your cantrips off is effective enough to get under the Prelate, for if it lands you are just trying to minimize its effectiveness with a deck that is extremely capable of it.

This is just what I think, and it is entirely possible that I could be wrong, but this is how I have chosen to adapt to the outbreak of Sanctum Prelate. I would love to hear more on what everyone else does to combat the Prelate.

Edit: To add to this I feel cards to deal with Prelate are more appropriately placed in the sideboard for this deck. Cards like Rough // Tumble or other cards that completely dodge Prelate on 1 in your sideboard are better just so that you don't dilute your efficient plan in G1 against other decks.

[Chatto]

@ Ruta Barracuda: I was aiming on making it clear that Prowess is the main difference/ focus with this new incarnation: with proper sequencing you can have a better damage-output :-) I'll update when I have proper computer at my disposel.

[jattra]

If you are looking to diversify the casting costs in your removal sweet to fight Sanctum Prelate Fire // Ice is an option and don't forget that Dismember is also an option. However I don't feel that this is necessary. I feel that just being more aggressive with establishing a board presence and firing your cantrips off is effective enough to get under the Prelate, for if it lands you are just trying to minimize its effectiveness with a deck that is extremely capable of it.

This is just what I think, and it is entirely possible that I could be wrong, but this is how I have chosen to adapt to the outbreak of Sanctum Prelate. I would love to hear more on what everyone else does to combat the Prelate.

Edit: To add to this I feel cards to deal with Prelate are more appropriately placed in the sideboard for this deck. Cards like Rough // Tumble or other cards that completely dodge Prelate on 1 in your sideboard are better just so that you don't dilute your efficient plan in G1 against other decks.

The good thing about Fire/Ice in main deck is that it does not dilute my plan (in my opinion) and helps even in G1 to kill Prelate or tap Griselbrand just to swing for lethal.

[ChemicalBurns]

Really glad UR Delver got the thread it deserves, since previous ones had become not updated with the more modern developments. Great job Chatto, primer's excellent and will be following this closely, thanks for referencing my MTGGoldfish articles.

In terms of artifact destruction, is Smash to Smithereens always the best option? There's a bevvy of options in red that could be quite interesting - something like Crash which synergises very well with big Prowess turns, but of course could be a little inconsistent. Shattering Spree is also a good one in certain situations. Just a thought.

[TheManWithaPlan]

Really glad UR Delver got the thread it deserves, since previous ones had become not updated with the more modern developments. Great job Chatto, primer's excellent and will be following this closely, thanks for referencing my MTGGoldfish articles.

In terms of artifact destruction, is Smash to Smithereens always the best option? There's a bevvy of options in red that could be quite interesting - something like Crash which synergises very well with big Prowess turns, but of course could be a little inconsistent. Shattering Spree is also a good one in certain situations. Just a thought.

Firstly, thanks for the feedback everyone!

@ChemicalBurns, in terms of the best artifact removal for this deck firstly I have never even heard of Crash, seems interesting, but the reason Smash is so good is because it isn't just a Shatter it is also a Lightning Bolt so it does two things at once; destroys an artifact while progressing your game plan.

Also, I love your content on MTGGoldfish and eagerly look forward to reading each week, thanks for your contributions to the Legacy crowd!

[Poron]

that's why, when possible Destructibe Revelry is really a good card.

[paradigm72]

Sean, I like the suggestion of Crash. I think in a non-Fireblast list it's potentially worth running as a third artifact destruction spell in the board, when the metagame demands it. Against something like Thorn or Thalia the free cost is definitely compelling.

I don't think I would cut either of the two sideboard copies of Smash to Smithereens though... Smash is just so clutch at turning around a game where we're behind because of the virtual card advantage it creates, with the extra bolt 'stapled on'.

[Jonny Tempel]

First off, thank you all for making this nice new primer!

Second, i'm attending a bigger legacy event in 3 weeks and would like to have some feedback on my list, especially regarding sideboard choices.
I'm not sure about the meta as i mostly played modern the last few months but i believe there will be lots of BUG decks (all flavours), lots of Storm and Reanimator and few Miracle decks.
Infect, D&T and Sneak Show should also be present.

My list:

Spells: 31
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
1x Fireblast
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Price of Progress
4x Chain Lightning
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder

Creatures: 13
1x Bedlam Reveler
4x Delver of Secrets
1x Grim Lavamancer
4x Monastery Swiftspear
3x Stormchaser Mage

Lands: 16
2x Island
2x Mountain
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Volcanic Island
2x Wooded Foothills


Sideboard: 15
1x Flusterstorm
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Pyroblast
2x Smash to Smithereens
2x Spell Pierce
1x Submerge
1x Sudden Demise
2x Sulfuric Vortex
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Vendilion Clique


Feedback welcome!

Greetings

[TheManWithaPlan]

First off, thank you all for making this nice new primer!

Second, i'm attending a bigger legacy event in 3 weeks and would like to have some feedback on my list, especially regarding sideboard choices.
I'm not sure about the meta as i mostly played modern the last few months but i believe there will be lots of BUG decks (all flavours), lots of Storm and Reanimator and few Miracle decks.
Infect, D&T and Sneak Show should also be present.

My list:

Thanks for the shoutout for the primer! Glad you like it!

I don't think that Grim Lavamancer and Bedlam Reveler belong in the same main deck, especially since you aren't necessarily pouring spells into your graveyard (that would just be a waste). I also heavily advocate sideboarding up to the 4th copy of Price of Progress. It's something I've been doing and I have really loved it. I haven't played the deck in a while, but Price of Progress looks like a great card in the current meta. I don't think I would be running Fireblast in your build of the deck. I feel you would need to go to 4 Volcanic Islands to support it effectively, but don't take my word for it because I haven't tested your build or any builds with Fireblast.

To go off on a bit of a tangent I am also changing my stance on Bedlam Reveler a bit. I am now willing to try it in the mainboard of this deck as a 1 of. I will be testing it in the coming weeks. It seems that it is well positioned against the BUG decks as they don't have a particularly efficient way of removing it and you actually get slowed down enough to make the card castable. I also might be messing with a 3rd Price of Progress in the main board.

[Chatto]

Blood Moon should also be considered if your meta is filled with greedy manabases :-)

[Jonny Tempel]

Thanks for the suggestions guys!

I' recently cut the second Reveler in favour of Lavamancer but maybe i should consider re-adding him or take a Clique instead.
Same goes for Price of Progess and Fireblast. I have to borrow my third Volcanic to one of my friends so i'm left with only two for my deck. Fireblast has been really nice in the few games i've played with it so far but you may be right with only 2 dual lands it might be to risky.

So my changes would be:
Maindeck:
-1 Fireblast
-1 Grim Lavamancer
+1 Price
+1 Bedlam Reveler/Vendilion Clique

Sideboard:
-1 Vendilion Clique
+1 Blood Moon

Greetings

[TheManWithaPlan]

Thanks for the suggestions guys!

I' recently cut the second Reveler in favour of Lavamancer but maybe i should consider re-adding him or take a Clique instead.
Same goes for Price of Progess and Fireblast. I have to borrow my third Volcanic to one of my friends so i'm left with only two for my deck. Fireblast has been really nice in the few games i've played with it so far but you may be right with only 2 dual lands it might be to risky.

So my changes would be:
Maindeck:
-1 Fireblast
-1 Grim Lavamancer
+1 Price
+1 Bedlam Reveler/Vendilion Clique

Sideboard:
-1 Vendilion Clique
+1 Blood Moon

Greetings

I feel like Clique is a better sideboard card than a mainboard card. I would be running a True-Name Nemesis over the Clique in the mainboard. The reason being you generally want a more resilient threat in that slot. Clique dies to half a Forked Bolt while people have to run answers specifically for the Nemesis because it doesn't die to traditional removal where as Clique is just another target for Bolts, Decays, Plows, and now Fatal Pushes. I feel that Clique can be awesome in the sideboard against combo like Sneak and Show and Storm and that the sideboard is where this card should be.

For the lack of the third dual land I would run a Steam Vents anyways. You NEED that third dual. I put up several results with this deck, lacking a third Volcanic and it was still fine. It also powers up your non-existent Death's Shadow to boot!

[pateuglow]

Took UR Prowess to a 9th place finish at a 61 person TJ Collectibles event this weekend. Lost my win and in in Round 6 - deck was great. Will put together a tournament report this week if people are interested.

[hoodwinked]

Took UR Prowess to a 9th place finish at a 61 person TJ Collectibles event this weekend. Lost my win and in in Round 6 - deck was great. Will put together a tournament report this week if people are interested.

Definitely interested. Haven't had a chance to play in a while, and would love to hear how UR is holding up in the TNN / Leovold era.

[Chatto]

Took UR Prowess to a 9th place finish at a 61 person TJ Collectibles event this weekend. Lost my win and in in Round 6 - deck was great. Will put together a tournament report this week if people are interested.


Definitely interested. Haven't had a chance to play in a while, and would love to hear how UR is holding up in the TNN / Leovold era.

+ 1. Always interested in reports.

[pateuglow]

TJ's Titanium Weekend
Legacy Challenge
March 5, 2017
61 Players

9th Place


List:

4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Stormchaser Mage
2 Bedlam Reveler

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Fireblast
3 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Price of Progress
1 Thunderous Wrath
4 Chain Lightning
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder

2 Island
2 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand

SB
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Force of Will
1 Price of Progress
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Spell Pierce
1 Submerge
1 Grafdigger’s Cage


Round 1 Grixis 2-1 (1-0)

I played against Mike, on Grixis. Lost game one on the back of an early Gurmag Angler, was not able to get much of a board presence. G2 and G3 went smoothly. Matchup felt fine, as his mana base punishes him with PoP. I didn’t see any Fatal Push in his list (could be a card availability issue), and his main removal was Abrupt Decay which didn’t match up well vs UR.I know Thunderous Wrath caught him very off guard in G2 (which I used to great effect to take out an Angler that was clogging the board). It is likely he was unaware that the card is considered a 1-of in many lists now. I didn’t sideboard too much in these games, as Daze was too good vs his aggressive casting of Gurmag Anglers. I believe I brought in a 3rd PoP for Force of Will.


Round 2 Sneak and Show 2-0 (2-0)

I played against Bryan on Sneak and Show. Game 1 he actually resolved Sneak Attack because I kept a hand with no real permission, just creatures and burn. He hit with Griselbrand on consecutive turns, but did not use the draw 7 activation. After that, he basically was out of gas and I aggro’d him out with Swiftspears and a Delver. G2 I was able to keep him off his Omniscience plan with a grip of REB, FOW, and Spell Pierce and won handily. The SnS matchup feels pretty good in general, and this match was pretty standard. I believe the SB here was pretty light here too. REB for counter wars and a resolved Omniscience, and a Spell Pierce. I think I shaved a Chain Lightning and the Bedlam Revelers, as I felt I wouldn’t get a chance to cast them.


Round 3 Feature Match 2-1 (3-0)

I played against John (he eventually took down the event) and he was on BUG. Game one was over quickly with an early Delver which was killed after 2 attacks, but a pair of Swiftspears and removal for Deathrites and Dark Confidants won it. He ran away with Game 2 on the back of a beefy Tarmogoyf and enough Stifles to keep me of mana for a few turns. Game 3 was on camera and ended up being pretty one sided. I had enough pressure and he flooded pretty hard. I think the final turn was PoP for 6, then Fireblast with a Stormchaser on the board that could attack for lethal had Fireblast been countered. John was a very nice dude from the Boston area and I was happy to see him win out in Top 8. SB here was pretty basic as well, bring in PoP and a Submerge and side out Reveler, I think that was about it.


Round 4 Feature Match 1-2 (3-1)

Played against Jason. He was also on SnS with Cunning Wish, and was able to Show and Tell an Emrakul into play when he was at 5 life, and I quickly lost that game. Game 2 was very much in my favor, as he had all the action in hand (a Probe revealed Sneak Attack, Griselbrand, Emrakul, and Omniscience) but I had plenty of counters, a Swiftspear, Stormchaser Mage, and PoP to carry me through the game. Game 3 was again a story of a resolved Omniscience and Emrakul. I remember having to mulligan both G2 and G3, and especially in G3 when I had a 6 card opener of 3 lands, a couple creatures/cantrips, and a REB as my only permission. This was likely a bad keep, but I wasn’t convinced I’d get a better 5 card hand. Was kinda bummed to lose in Round 4 because it made getting into T8 harder, but we still had a chance.


Round 5 Sneak and Show 2-1 (4-1)

This was against our friend and fellow podcaster Peter, also on Sneak and Show. Peter lost G1 to us getting deck checked and he failed to de-sideboard properly, which sucks. He took G2 on the back of Show and Tell + Emrakul, but Game 3 was pretty one sided, as I was able to get on the beatdown pretty quickly with 3 Swiftspears. Early Probe revealed Emrakul, Ancient Tomb, Griselbrand, Spell Pierce, Sneak Attack, Sneak Attack, Flooded Strand. I kept up enough countermagic to fight the Sneak Attack.


Round 6 Feautre Match 0-2 (4-2)

Round 6 was against Noah Walker. Looking at breakers there were too many 12 points to draw into Top 8 so we had to play it out. As we were walking to the feature match area he noted I was on UR and was doing pretty well, I asked if he was on Grixis and he said no. Found out he was running a BUG list with Deathrite, Snapcaster, Strix, Clique, Fatal Push, and Kolaghan’s Command. G1 was pretty close, but after losing my opening threat to a Fatal Push and my second to a Snapcaster + Fatal Push, it was tough to get back up to speed. Game 2 I had an early Probe and he was sitting on Push, Brainstorm, Flusterstorm, Counterspell, Kolaghans Command, and Engineered Explosives. I had a hand of 2 Swiftspears and Delver of Secrets for threats, so those weren’t great against his opener. Later in the game I played into his Flusterstorm too easily, completely failing to check my notes. I have a Monastery Swiftspear online, and he’s got 3 duals out and no creatures to block, he’s at 12. I know if I don’t kill him this turn I’ll die on the crack back, as he is playing really flawlessly, using Jace and Clique to card advantage me out of the game. So I PoP, he goes to Kolaghan Command my Stormchaser in response. Knowing I need to keep the SCM online to win this turn, I sac my 2 red sources to play fireblast, but he played Flusterstorm and puts 2 copies on each of my burn spells. With only 1 open mana and REB in hand, it was game over. It was rough and a lesson learned.

Overall, the deck was great. Playing Sneak and Show 3 times was an excellent streak of luck, as that matchup is definitely favored for the UR Delver player. I had to mulligan only a few times which was also nice. I loved only running 3 FOW in the main, because the deck has a very hard time recovering from 2 for 1-ing itself. I had more than a few listeners ask me about running Young Pyromancer in this build, and I have a lot of thoughts on that subject which will be turning into an article soon. I would likely make a couple changes based on what I saw, including adding a Flusterstorm to the SB (I don’t own one) and maybe trading a Reveler for a Clique. Also, I ended up playing 3 of the Top 8 players during the Swiss, so it was definitely a slog of a day to come in 9th, but 10/10 would jam again.

If anyone has any questions, feel free to hit me up!

[Chatto]

Really nice report, thanks! I like the list a lot. Some questions:

- You never felt 'naked' with only 7 counters?
- Thunderous Wrath: did you cast it consistently for its Miracle-cost?

Cheers.

EDIT: could you tell me where to find your feature-MU's?

[paradigm72]

Nice result pateuglow! Awesome to see the report of such a successful run with the deck. My questions are the same as Chatto's :). I'm also curious to hear more about your experiences against Sneak and Show - it's been unfavored 40/60 for me, not sure if there are tricks you've found to make it more positive.

In other content, I noticed that the second half of this article (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/34695_Winning-Games-Youve-Lost.html) has some interesting discussion of how to play UR Delver against a resolved Griselbrand.

[pateuglow]

Really nice report, thanks! I like the list a lot. Some questions:

- You never felt 'naked' with only 7 counters?
- Thunderous Wrath: did you cast it consistently for its Miracle-cost?

Cheers.

EDIT: could you tell me where to find your feature-MU's?

Not at all. I think UR has a very hard time dealing with the FoW 2 for 1, so cutting one of those made sense. I didn't see a need for a MD Spell Pierce or Spell Snare, etc. I think I hit matchups (Sneak and Show) where the counters are important, and I didn't feel like g1 was out of reach ever.

As far as Thunderous Wrath, I did get it stuck in my hand once versus Sneak and Show, which sucked. I still think the upside of the card outweighs the possibility of it being dead. We do have 4 Brainstorms to put it back, and 4 Ponders to ensure it is the first card we draw when appropriate. The 'gotcha' factor of the card is pretty fun, and because many aren't familiar with UR in it's current state, it is often a surprise, especially since mine are Japanese.

Also, I believe the TO is still working on getting the videos up of the FM. Sadly, even though 3 rounds of mine were in the feature match area, only G3 of my match vs John Hogan was on camera.

[pateuglow]

Nice result pateuglow! Awesome to see the report of such a successful run with the deck. My questions are the same as Chatto's :). I'm also curious to hear more about your experiences against Sneak and Show - it's been unfavored 40/60 for me, not sure if there are tricks you've found to make it more positive.

In other content, I noticed that the second half of this article (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/34695_Winning-Games-Youve-Lost.html) has some interesting discussion of how to play UR Delver against a resolved Griselbrand.

Thank you, it was a lot of fun to play. UR is my favorite deck in Legacy, so I look for opportunities to jam it always.

As far as Sneak and Show, I feel the keys to the matchup are (if this comes across as obvious, I apologize)

1) Have a beater or two. A flipped Delver and a Swiftspear with Burn spells are enough to put them on a 3-4 turn clock
2) Have counterspells. Often Sneak and Show players are trying to jam the combo quickly, and will sometimes play into Daze. Otherwise, FOW is your target.
3) Assess their gameplan. If they are digging and digging, they are clearly missing pieces and will play into your countermagic.
4) It's never over til it's over. I've been able to kill an opponent because I Stifled Griselbrand's activation and killed them on the swing back.

[Chatto]

One other point comes to mind after re-reading your report: Fatal Push. It shows in your mu vs Noah Walker. I can't help but think that this card will be pretty hard for us to deal with. Still, it could be we are fast enough.

[jattra]

TJ's Titanium Weekend
Legacy Challenge
March 5, 2017
61 Players

9th Place


Great read! I also have questions.
Do you believe that Thunderous Wrath is better than Dismember? (putting asside the 'gotcha' factor)
How can Kolaghan's Command kill Stormchaser mage? I am sorry I am missing something I don't get it.

I am playing a similar list and also want to replace the second Reveler but I want to try Nemesis instead...

[pateuglow]

One other point comes to mind after re-reading your report: Fatal Push. It shows in your mu vs Noah Walker. I can't help but think that this card will be pretty hard for us to deal with. Still, it could be we are fast enough.

Yes, Fatal Push was rough. If we see it as a 3 or 4 of in decks, I think UR will take a sizable hit. I don't know if that card will become quite that ubiquitous.


Great read! I also have questions.
Do you believe that Thunderous Wrath is better than Dismember? (putting asside the 'gotcha' factor)
How can Kolaghan's Command kill Stormchaser mage? I am sorry I am missing something I don't get it.

I am playing a similar list and also want to replace the second Reveler but I want to try Nemesis instead...

I think TNN or Clique are both worth testing in place of the second Reveler.
I do think Thunderous Wrath is better than Dismember, especially since Eldrazi has slipped with the uptick of BGx decks.
I may be recalling the match incorrectly. It was likely a Swiftspear he intended to kill. Will fix the OP

[Smuggo]

Long-time lurker here, thanks a lot for this primer.

Been playing Legacy for about a year doing various budget combo decks like sac-land storm and dredge but have been building up to U/R delver so this thread has been great for tips.

Going to be playing the deck in a proxy-allowed monthly tournament in London at the end of the month so I'll share my tournament report.

[pateuglow]

Long-time lurker here, thanks a lot for this primer.

Been playing Legacy for about a year doing various budget combo decks like sac-land storm and dredge but have been building up to U/R delver so this thread has been great for tips.

Going to be playing the deck in a proxy-allowed monthly tournament in London at the end of the month so I'll share my tournament report.

What cards do you need to proxy, out of curiosity?

[Smuggo]

What cards do you need to proxy, out of curiosity?

Only notables are 1xFlusterstorm, 4xScalding Tarns and 1xVolcanic Island.

[jattra]

Yes, Fatal Push was rough. If we see it as a 3 or 4 of in decks, I think UR will take a sizable hit. I don't know if that card will become quite that ubiquitous.


In my meta, there is lot's of removal present, including multiple Pushes
The best action is probably to change a deck to play. However, I was thinking - when playing UR in removal heavy meta, is it a correct move to side out Delvers and try to deal massive damage using hasty prowess and direct damage?

[pateuglow]

In my meta, there is lot's of removal present, including multiple Pushes
The best action is probably to change a deck to play. However, I was thinking - when playing UR in removal heavy meta, is it a correct move to side out Delvers and try to deal massive damage using hasty prowess and direct damage?

That's a good question. Personally, if the removal is in the form of Bolt, Push, and Swords, I'd be more inclined to bring in Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, and any other counters you have in the SB in place of FOW. Creature threat density is low, and the deck can't win without threats. My gut tells me that Delver is a major target for removal, and if you side out your Delvers then nearly all remaining creatures you run still die to the same removal, save Bedlam Reveler.

[Smuggo]

In my meta, there is lot's of removal present, including multiple Pushes
The best action is probably to change a deck to play. However, I was thinking - when playing UR in removal heavy meta, is it a correct move to side out Delvers and try to deal massive damage using hasty prowess and direct damage?

I'm not sure Push massively changes things, it's just a black bolt in most instances and is not as good as swords and was far more damaging to decks running Goyf. You can usually daze a t1 push on your delver and I feel the creature and cantrip density of the deck means even if they remove it, you'll be able to get something else on the board pretty quickly. Even having a hasted prowess creature on the board for a couple of turns can do quite a bit of damage so they need to keep finding more push or other removal to keep up.

[pateuglow]

I'm not sure Push massively changes things, it's just a black bolt in most instances and is not as good as swords and was far more damaging to decks running Goyf. You can usually daze a t1 push on your delver and I feel the creature and cantrip density of the deck means even if they remove it, you'll be able to get something else on the board pretty quickly. Even having a hasted prowess creature on the board for a couple of turns can do quite a bit of damage so they need to keep finding more push or other removal to keep up.

Absolutely. Also, BGx decks are always susceptible to PoP. Generally, the UR matchup versus BGx varaints is strong

[Smuggo]

Absolutely. Also, BGx decks are always susceptible to PoP. Generally, the UR matchup versus BGx varaints is strong

Yeah, my friend plays 4c Delver and his landbase shifts the matchup very heavily in my favour and there's very little he can do about it save from boarding in more countermagic.

[TheManWithaPlan]

In my meta, there is lot's of removal present, including multiple Pushes
The best action is probably to change a deck to play. However, I was thinking - when playing UR in removal heavy meta, is it a correct move to side out Delvers and try to deal massive damage using hasty prowess and direct damage?

I wouldn't worry too much about Fatal Push as an addition to some decks. It is mostly replacing some removal spells in some decks instead of just adding more removal spells. As an example Disfigure in Shardless BUG sideboards has now become Fatal Push. Good ways to combat Fatal Push are just to blank it with big creatures like Bedlam Reveler or resilient creatures like True-Name Nemesis. I am not advocating trying to out grind them but these are options to help you in these inevitable games.


Absolutely. Also, BGx decks are always susceptible to PoP. Generally, the UR matchup versus BGx varaints is strong

This said I would recommend putting the 3rd and 4th Price of Progress in the sideboard for these matchups.

Another note, BGx decks often play a lot of removal and can be tough matchups sometimes because we are a deck that relies heavily on dealing damage through creatures instead of spells, and being quite removal heavy they can kill a lot of our creatures and leave us to burn them out from high life totals.

[jattra]

Another note, BGx decks often play a lot of removal and can be tough matchups sometimes because we are a deck that relies heavily on dealing damage through creatures instead of spells, and being quite removal heavy they can kill a lot of our creatures and leave us to burn them out from high life totals.
That was my point. In my LGS, people play quite a lot of fair decks and inevitably lot of creature removal. They often empty my board and drown me in card advantage. Bedlam is great (if they don't have Leovold, grr) and I added TNN recently. I am often afraid to use countermagic to save my creature however. I lost a few games before because wasting a counterspell on removal.

[pateuglow]

That was my point. In my LGS, people play quite a lot of fair decks and inevitably lot of creature removal. They often empty my board and drown me in card advantage. Bedlam is great (if they don't have Leovold, grr) and I added TNN recently. I am often afraid to use countermagic to save my creature however. I lost a few games before because wasting a counterspell on removal.

I think it's correct to use counters against removal if it is your only threat or you don't possess the cantrips to dig for another threat. There is usually nothing wrong with using Daze vs a removal spell early in the game.

[Chatto]

I think it's correct to use counters against removal if it is your only threat or you don't possess the cantrips to dig for another threat. There is usually nothing wrong with using Daze vs a removal spell early in the game.

+1, using counters depends on a lot of different factors.

[CabalTherapy]

I did not feel like playing ANT yesterday so I sleeved up UR again.
I cut 2 Revelers, 1 Stormchaster, 1 Fireblast (the flex slot) from the generic list and battled with 4 Goblin Guides.
Deck felt quite smooth. Results was bad but Guide surprised me positively.

[Smuggo]

I think it's correct to use counters against removal if it is your only threat or you don't possess the cantrips to dig for another threat. There is usually nothing wrong with using Daze vs a removal spell early in the game.

Agreed, Daze in particular becomes much less useful as the game wears on to it makes sense to use it early to stop removal. I would try to avoid using force against random one mana removal though, even if you only have one threat. You'll almost always regret it later.

[pateuglow]

Agreed, Daze in particular becomes much less useful as the game wears on to it makes sense to use it early to stop removal. I would try to avoid using force against random one mana removal though, even if you only have one threat. You'll almost always regret it later.

This is why I shaved one FOW in the main. UR does not recover well from the 2 for 1 and generally Force is a last resort IMO

[paradigm72]

On Fatal Push's effect on this deck: I think it's pretty much a wash between the two competing factors:

Negative effect of an upgrade to Disfigure (which was bad against Swiftspear/Stormchaser), plus BUG decks having access to 1-mana removal instead of 2-mana.
Positive effect of BUG manabases being super vulnerable to our Price of Progress.

Overall it feels to me like we might lose a couple percentage points against the general field, but I think it's close.


Last night I had a fun 4-0 MTGO League run going, and was up a game in the 5th match, but ended up losing a hearbreaker to Miracles' blind CB flips to miss the perfect run :/. My luck had to run out at some point against Miracles, had won the last 5 in a row in that matchup. I'm considering some spice like moving a Sulfuric Vortex to the main given how slanted the MTGO meta is (played Miracles 40% of the time in my last 10 matches).

[pateuglow]

On Fatal Push's effect on this deck: I think it's pretty much a wash between the two competing factors:

Negative effect of an upgrade to Disfigure (which was bad against Swiftspear/Stormchaser), plus BUG decks having access to 1-mana removal instead of 2-mana.
Positive effect of BUG manabases being super vulnerable to our Price of Progress.

Overall it feels to me like we might lose a couple percentage points against the general field, but I think it's close.


Last night I had a fun 4-0 MTGO League run going, and was up a game in the 5th match, but ended up losing a hearbreaker to Miracles' blind CB flips to miss the perfect run :/. My luck had to run out at some point against Miracles, had won the last 5 in a row in that matchup. I'm considering some spice like moving a Sulfuric Vortex to the main given how slanted the MTGO meta is (played Miracles 40% of the time in my last 10 matches).

oof that's rough. I've yet to take UR through an MTGO league, will do it soon for sure.

Vortex main is cute, but I'm always weary of adding a card that doesn't flip Delver

What did your SB look like, out of curiosity?

[paradigm72]

Vortex main is cute, but I'm always weary of adding a card that doesn't flip Delver

What did your SB look like, out of curiosity?

In general I agree with you, so I'll probably hold off for now. My board for this league was:

Core slots:
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
2 Price of Progress
1 Surgical Extraction

Flex slots:
1 Null Rod
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Exquisite Firecraft

Most of those flex slots change in and out depending on meta. I think I was too high on the graveyard hate here and need to cut that down by at least one card, probably going up to 2 Pyroblast. Also looking to fit in Submerge.

[Chatto]

I did not feel like playing ANT yesterday so I sleeved up UR again.
I cut 2 Revelers, 1 Stormchaster, 1 Fireblast (the flex slot) from the generic list and battled with 4 Goblin Guides.
Deck felt quite smooth. Results was bad but Guide surprised me positively.

Can you elaborate a bit more? What were your MU's? What do you think are the pro's, and con's? Does it play out more like UR Sleigh?

[scaryrawr]

In other content, I noticed that the second half of this article (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/34695_Winning-Games-Youve-Lost.html) has some interesting discussion of how to play UR Delver against a resolved Griselbrand.

GAH, she punted the game!

Mid Brainstorm I was like "OH MY GOD, SHE HAS THIS!!!" then she put her creatures in defense mode, and I was like "That's right... WAIT! This isn't Yu-gi-oh" and it hit me she was attacking!

She shouldn't have attacked, kept both bolts and Force and Delver, and put back the Fetch and Fireblast, then if the guy swings, block bolt delver, force battle if needed, bolt face if he draws 7. If he doesn't force battle, lethal next turn with swiftspear + bolt + fireblast and force back up, slow roll, don't put them all on the stack at once, but all before combat damage, that way you can respond if he tries to respond, or you just win.

If he doesn't attack, you bolt face end of turn, he probably tries to force, you force back, if he goes to draw 7, bolt face. If he lets it resolve, you can bolt + fireblast and he can't draw cause he's at 7 or less life at this point.

@pateuglow

I'm still really iffy on Thunderous Wrath, maybe because I mostly play burn, and it's a bad card in burn.

I guess since you try to main phase spells for Prowess triggers it ends up being fine?
How did it work out for you? Were there any times where you drew it and didn't want to Miracle it? I guess having 4 Brainstorms it's likely you can work with it a bit better?

Also, with Leovold, Emissary of Trest, did you find that a pain when playing UR?

[CabalTherapy]

Can you elaborate a bit more? What were your MU's? What do you think are the pro's, and con's? Does it play out more like UR Sleigh?

Elves 1:2
Won game one quite easily because I pressured him fast with 2 Delver and a Guide. He then played rather poorly in game 2 and 3 but managed to overload on guys
and I did not drew my Electrickeries or any other relevant spell. Survived a Craterhoof attack but he just had more damage on the field and I got stuck with basics unable to play out my
red spells fast enough...
NicFit 1:2
Same story basically, I win game one and lose to value plays in game 2 and 3. He played all kinds of junky lifelink creatures which made me trade negatively.
Bye...
Bug Control 2:1
So, I guess that's just a favourable MU. Nothing too fancy here. I had quick starts with Guides in game 1 and 3.

I played this deck several times last year in small local tournaments since it's one of my back up decks. I have never been a big fan of Stormchaser because he in fact is rather slow and not great in pushing through damage.
Bedlam Reveler, however, was a tough cut but it simply doesn't fit in my strategy to play as many aggressive one-drops as possible and go for a stronger early game because I think that UR is too weak to battle through the
opp's spell in mid or late games. I played a similar version 5 or 6 years ago with Steppe Lynx (UWR cat aggro), Guide, and Delver. Guide definitely was the best creature in that tournament and I like how he attacks through DRS unlike Swiftspear, which might get blocked (although they usually dont block it even without a prowess trigger incoming).
It loses some mid game power but gains additional speed and I am sure that playing out a dude on turn 1 is the plan of the deck in every single game.

[Smuggo]

I agree Stormchaser is a bit clunky and the mana cost can be problematic as well. Not sure on Goblin Guide though, it's fast but maybe struggles a bit more once if you can't end early. Might try snapcasters myself as I like the idea of having some card advantage, more potential for combat tricks, being able to reuse bolts etc..

[pateuglow]

@pateuglow

I'm still really iffy on Thunderous Wrath, maybe because I mostly play burn, and it's a bad card in burn.

I guess since you try to main phase spells for Prowess triggers it ends up being fine?
How did it work out for you? Were there any times where you drew it and didn't want to Miracle it? I guess having 4 Brainstorms it's likely you can work with it a bit better?

Also, with Leovold, Emissary of Trest, did you find that a pain when playing UR?

Wrath was good, imo. I've used it quite a bit for the last month and haven't had it feel clunky with the exception of 1 game.

Burn has more direct damage available to it than UR does, so it makes sense that you wouldn't want it.

Leovold, to me, is just a bolt target. Sure, spend 3 mana, draw a card, and I discard a card. I don't see it as a big deal in UR delver, especially since they are very susceptible to our PoP.

[Jonny Tempel]

So how do you guys sideboard against Storm?
I'm especially curious about the usefulness of daze and while this question may sound stupid, none of my friends plays storm so i rarely face the deck. It's one of the few decks i have no clue how to sideboard accordingly.

I mean it's clear i'm bringing in my Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm and 4th Force of Will alongside Surgical Extraction and Cage/Clique if i run them but what should i board out?
Bedlam Reveler is a obvius cut but what else?
The same is true for Sneak and Show. I know what to bring in but what to cut? Chain Lightning?

[pateuglow]

So how do you guys sideboard against Storm?
I'm especially curious about the usefulness of daze and while this question may sound stupid, none of my friends plays storm so i rarely face the deck. It's one of the few decks i have no clue how to sideboard accordingly.

I mean it's clear i'm bringing in my Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm and 4th Force of Will alongside Surgical Extraction and Cage/Clique if i run them but what should i board out?
Bedlam Reveler is a obvius cut but what else?
The same is true for Sneak and Show. I know what to bring in but what to cut? Chain Lightning?

I'll always cut the Chain Lightning, the Revelers, anything that I deem too slow in the matchup, or something I may never get to cast. Sometimes I will shave a Probe as well

Would be interested to see other's strategy vs those m/u

[Jonny Tempel]

I'll always cut the Chain Lightning, the Revelers, anything that I deem too slow in the matchup, or something I may never get to cast. Sometimes I will shave a Probe as well

Would be interested to see other's strategy vs those m/u

So i guess this is true for both, Storm and S&S?
Thanks.

[pateuglow]

So i guess this is true for both, Storm and S&S?
Thanks.

Yeah I board both pretty similarly. Both decks are resilient to your first counterspell, and if they go off there's likely no time to recover.

I think Daze is only good in the very early game, so I tend to shuffle them away after t3-4 if I have other counters available.

[TheManWithaPlan]

So how do you guys sideboard against Storm?
I'm especially curious about the usefulness of daze and while this question may sound stupid, none of my friends plays storm so i rarely face the deck. It's one of the few decks i have no clue how to sideboard accordingly.

I mean it's clear i'm bringing in my Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm and 4th Force of Will alongside Surgical Extraction and Cage/Clique if i run them but what should i board out?
Bedlam Reveler is a obvius cut but what else?
The same is true for Sneak and Show. I know what to bring in but what to cut? Chain Lightning?

Against Storm I feel as long as you have extra counter magic in the board your deck is fast enough to kill them before they can overcome a couple extra counters. For cuts, Reveler goes, I like to shave a few Probes and I also feel that Price of Progress isn't that good in this matchup because they usually fetch basics to play around it anyway. The reason I like to leave all the Bolts in is that speed is your strength and it gives them less time to overcome counterspells.

As for Daze I feel fine about it in this matchup. You just have to pick your spots with it and if they can pay for it you have to find where they could be tight on mana and make them spend another mana to resolve a crucial spell. For Example if your opponent is floating 6xB and spends 5xB to cast Ad Nauseam I would probably daze so to constrict their mana a bit and potentially cause their Ad Nauseam to fail because they had to go deeper trying to find Petals and Lion's Eye Diamonds while their life total is under duress. If they know about Daze they can just play around it, but sometimes that is very difficult for a Storm player to do especially when their life total is being pressured by 8 Bolts and creatures that get bigger every time you cast another cantrip.

If you want some dedicated Storm hate play Eidolon of the Great Revel (and call it party bear).

I feel pretty much the same about the Sneak and Show matchup with a couple specifics tweaked. I think you cut Reveler. I don't love Price of Progress because I feel like they will just fetch basics again. You can shave on Probes because I would rather them be something else. Bringing in extra countermagic is generally a good idea but I would still keep as many bolts as I could.

For Daze against Sneak and Show, they are trying to resolve a 3 or 4 mana spell quickly so Daze can be incredible early but its effectiveness quickly drops after turns 3-4.

[pateuglow]

Against Storm I feel as long as you have extra counter magic in the board your deck is fast enough to kill them before they can overcome a couple extra counters. For cuts, Reveler goes, I like to shave a few Probes and I also feel that Price of Progress isn't that good in this matchup because they usually fetch basics to play around it anyway. The reason I like to leave all the Bolts in is that speed is your strength and it gives them less time to overcome counterspells.

As for Daze I feel fine about it in this matchup. You just have to pick your spots with it and if they can pay for it you have to find where they could be tight on mana and make them spend another mana to resolve a crucial spell. For Example if your opponent is floating 6xB and spends 5xB to cast Ad Nauseam I would probably daze so to constrict their mana a bit and potentially cause their Ad Nauseam to fail because they had to go deeper trying to find Petals and Lion's Eye Diamonds while their life total is under duress. If they know about Daze they can just play around it, but sometimes that is very difficult for a Storm player to do especially when their life total is being pressured by 8 Bolts and creatures that get bigger every time you cast another cantrip.

If you want some dedicated Storm hate play Eidolon of the Great Revel (and call it party bear).

I feel pretty much the same about the Sneak and Show matchup with a couple specifics tweaked. I think you cut Reveler. I don't love Price of Progress because I feel like they will just fetch basics again. You can shave on Probes because I would rather them be something else. Bringing in extra countermagic is generally a good idea but I would still keep as many bolts as I could.

For Daze against Sneak and Show, they are trying to resolve a 3 or 4 mana spell quickly so Daze can be incredible early but its effectiveness quickly drops after turns 3-4.

Yes PoP is also a cuttable card versus both, because Storm isn't playing many lands and most SnS decks can fetch basics, as they run Blood Moon often in the SB.

[Ghiwo]

Last night I had a fun 4-0 MTGO League run going, and was up a game in the 5th match, but ended up losing a hearbreaker to Miracles' blind CB flips to miss the perfect run :/. My luck had to run out at some point against Miracles, had won the last 5 in a row in that matchup. I'm considering some spice like moving a Sulfuric Vortex to the main given how slanted the MTGO meta is (played Miracles 40% of the time in my last 10 matches).

Hey!

Congrats on your results! I've just bought UR on MTGO because I had all the cards and spent just a few tix. Do you think Miracles is a good mu for us? How do you usually approach it? Thanks a lot!!

[pateuglow]

I'd say our Miracles matchup is slightly unfavorable generally. Thankfully some lists aren't running 4x Counterbalance anymore because BGx is on the rise (Decay)

The approach I take is usually no more than 2 threats at a time, and try to hold up some counter magic. Always counter the Top, because it gives them a massive advantage over the game.

[jattra]

I'd say our Miracles matchup is slightly unfavorable generally. Thankfully some lists aren't running 4x Counterbalance anymore because BGx is on the rise (Decay)

The approach I take is usually no more than 2 threats at a time, and try to hold up some counter magic. Always counter the Top, because it gives them a massive advantage over the game.

I am not sure if we have the luxury of countering Top. I think we need to fight CB and Mentor. I might be wrong though. I am running needle/null rod for Top.

[TheManWithaPlan]

I'd say our Miracles matchup is slightly unfavorable generally. Thankfully some lists aren't running 4x Counterbalance anymore because BGx is on the rise (Decay)

The approach I take is usually no more than 2 threats at a time, and try to hold up some counter magic. Always counter the Top, because it gives them a massive advantage over the game.

I feel that you have the right idea but I don't really care to counter Top unless I can Daze it. Otherwise there are only 2 cards I see worth countering; Terminus and Counterbalance. As for Mentor/Entreat, if your game plan is going well your opponent should not have the luxury to try to make these cards relevant.

[Whitefaces]

Agree, I'm not sure I'd even Daze a top, but that's pretty hand dependent. The power of Top scales, it's not particularly good in the early game but a beast in the late game. UR is an aggro deck, you're looking to mitigate its power by killing the opponent. Counterbalance is by far the scariest card in the MU imo.

[paradigm72]

I think my approach to Miracles is a little unorthodox - I play it as an all-out blitz, and am willing to commit 3 creatures to the board more often than not (especially on the play, or virtually on the play if they have to waste their T1 on something like a Ponder). Typically I am looking to throw as much damage at face as possible early on, and rely on having 1x Force of Will for a Terminus on turn 3 or so to get over the hump.

In the post-board games, I'm bringing in Vortex, Null Rod, Sulfur Elemental, Exquisite Firecraft. All of these allow dodging Counterbalance in them mid-to-late game, provided I was able to knock them down to ~8 or below in the early rush. I also find Price of Progress is still very strong against Miracles; I'm usually leaving in 2x because I find they often can't play around it completely and have to take 4 or 6 from it during or after some critical stack battle.

Lifetime I am 10-6 against Miracles with this deck, at a mix of MTGO/weeklies/SCG/GP. Since I started playing the matchup super aggressively around last September, I'm 8-2, with one of those losses against the recent Challenge winner Mzfroste. I'm probably getting some luck here, but it's enough that I feel happy to see the matchup across the table.

[Whitefaces]

I like that 'blitz' plan with creatures a lot, the more time you give them the more card selection they'll have and have the answers for every creature. If you can cash them in for damage early, do it and try to finish it off with burn to the dome.

I've not tried Firecraft actually, seems fantastic, need to pick some of them up!

[theMonster]

Hey, y'all, been testing this deck for the past couple weeks and have grown to really enjoy it. I like that it is favorable against all the three-color decks, and I'm 50/50 against Miracles and DnT (but could probably improve these win rates with more practice and a more tuned 75).

I've got some questions about the 2-drop slot. Stormchaser Mage is one of those cards that's been hard to evaluate for me. I like its evasion in the face of all these TNNs and the fact it can pitch to Force of Will, but often it feels like it attacks for one and dies to one-drop removal (including Pyroblast, which is on the rise), costing me valuable tempo. I've been very impressed by Swiftspear, though. It looks like 3 copies of Stormchaser is the number people have settled on. What's everyone else's take on the card? I assume Young Pyromancer has been tested and deemed inferior, right?

(Also, Thunderous Wrath ... I'm in love.)

Thanks!

[Tokugawa]

Hey, y'all, been testing this deck for the past couple weeks and have grown to really enjoy it. I like that it is favorable against all the three-color decks, and I'm 50/50 against Miracles and DnT (but could probably improve these win rates with more practice and a more tuned 75).

I've got some questions about the 2-drop slot. Stormchaser Mage is one of those cards that's been hard to evaluate for me. I like its evasion in the face of all these TNNs and the fact it can pitch to Force of Will, but often it feels like it attacks for one and dies to one-drop removal (including Pyroblast, which is on the rise), costing me valuable tempo. I've been very impressed by Swiftspear, though. It looks like 3 copies of Stormchaser is the number people have settled on. What's everyone else's take on the card? I assume Young Pyromancer has been tested and deemed inferior, right?

(Also, Thunderous Wrath ... I'm in love.)

Thanks!
YPs belong to another strategy. Unlike Grixis tempo, we are closer to an all-in deck.

Stormchaser mage is not some strictly "stronger" card. However, as prowess guy No.5-7, he significantly increases the chance of having multiple prowess attackers in play, "upgrade" the triggers.

Imagine that...if Monastary Swiftspear was never printed, would we still run Stormchaser mage in this deck? I think I won't.

[pateuglow]

I'm surprised how many people don't counter SDT - I always assumed it was one of the most powerful cards against us. It enables the instant speed/0 mana investment to set up a Terminus on our turn, it enables CB (which is MUCH worse without SDT)

For me, I can understand the 'blitz' mentality on the play, but committing 3 creatures to the board on the draw seems risky

This is all G1 of course, I think our SB games are a little different.

[Chatto]

I'm surprised how many people don't counter SDT - I always assumed it was one of the most powerful cards against us. It enables the instant speed/0 mana investment to set up a Terminus on our turn, it enables CB (which is MUCH worse without SDT)

For me, I can understand the 'blitz' mentality on the play, but committing 3 creatures to the board on the draw seems risky

This is all G1 of course, I think our SB games are a little different.

If I have the chance to counter a SDT, I will. SDT makes Miracles run smooth.

Speaking of sb-cards: would Exquisite Firecraft be a good choice? More Burn-oriented sb.

[pateuglow]

If I have the chance to counter a SDT, I will. SDT makes Miracles run smooth.

Speaking of sb-cards: would Exquisite Firecraft be a good choice? More Burn-oriented sb.

I think that's reasonable for sure, as it's good in a few matchups.

If it was just for Miracles I'd probably pass

[Agrippa91]

If you ask Miracle players about 95% of them will tell you that they think it's wrong to FoW a SDT. Having played against UR Delver with Grixis (stifle) Delver a ton I agree, but maybe it's a bit different here. My gut though would tell me that it's fine if they waste their mana topping.

Since I recently purchased my Scalding Tarns to be able to play Badlands in Grixis I decided I might as well build UR Delver since it's sometimes just a great metagame call and the cards to complete it cost me like 1 ticket (mtgo is awesome sometimes). I'm running a fairly standard list:

Lands (16)
4 scalding tarn
4 polluted delta
2 bloodstained mire
3 volcanic
2 island
1 mountain

Creatures (13)
4 delver
4 swiftspear
3 stormchaser
1 clique
1 reveler

Spells (31)
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 probe
4 bolt
4 lightning
2 PoP
1 fireblast
4 daze
4 force

Sideboard (15)
2 Rough/Tumble
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Price of Progress
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Sulfuric Vortex

Any thoughts on Vendilion Clique instead of the second Reveler? From the few games I played I really only ever wanted one. Unlike the stifle versions I usually play the clique also seems awesome, especially since it helps against the tougher combo-matchups. Really the reason I built this deck is to have access to 8 bolts and Rough/Tumble, that card scares the shit out of me every time I play with Grixis. The relic is there because I wanted another gy-hate, I figure I'll take out reveler in those matches anyways. I remember it also being annoyingly good against Tarmogoyf and DRS decks.

Something I'm yet not sure about is the Miracles matchup. How many bolts should I leave in? Since they want their pyroblasts is there a good chance PoP will still deal 4+ damage or would you rather keep in a bolt? Daze certainly is not great, but I feel we need every freaking counter we can get in a fight over CB. So far I think about:

-4 chain lightning
-2 PoP
+2 Pyroblast
+2 Flusterstorm
+2 Sulfuric Vortex

Relic I think is propably only good in theory and is propably too durdly and not worth the card overall.

[Chatto]

@Agrippa91: welcome! Perhaps you are right regarding not countering SDT, but maybe it all depends on certain situations. I will say that a counter-war isn't the way to go, that's for sure. Countering a CB would be awesome as well.

Regarding Clique: I don't know. What I do know is that I'm playing 4 Delver/ 4 Swiftspear/ 4 Mage and just one Reveler. I never felt comfortable playing two. I can see dropping him entirely if there would be better creature to fit this deck. I'm not sure, but I can see myself playing YP as two of as well. It would give a better late game in case of a failed 'blitzkrieg'. Let us know how Clique works out for you.

[TheManWithaPlan]

Any thoughts on Vendilion Clique instead of the second Reveler? From the few games I played I really only ever wanted one. Unlike the stifle versions I usually play the clique also seems awesome, especially since it helps against the tougher combo-matchups. Really the reason I built this deck is to have access to 8 bolts and Rough/Tumble, that card scares the shit out of me every time I play with Grixis. The relic is there because I wanted another gy-hate, I figure I'll take out reveler in those matches anyways. I remember it also being annoyingly good against Tarmogoyf and DRS decks.

Something I'm yet not sure about is the Miracles matchup. How many bolts should I leave in? Since they want their pyroblasts is there a good chance PoP will still deal 4+ damage or would you rather keep in a bolt? Daze certainly is not great, but I feel we need every freaking counter we can get in a fight over CB. So far I think about:

-4 chain lightning
-2 PoP
+2 Pyroblast
+2 Flusterstorm
+2 Sulfuric Vortex

I don't really like Clique. It can be very good, but I feel like I just want a game breaking threat in the 3 drop slot and Vendilion Clique isn't quite that. It is very frail as it dies to a lot of removal including half of a Forked Bolt (not that that card is being played right now). I like True-Name Nemesis because it is very difficult to answer and just can't be blocked making it a very potent threat and one that your opponents must respect.

I think that it's correct to board out Price just because it is so easy for Miracles to blank. I like keeping in most bolts to try to end the game faster. I generally tend to cut 2 Probes against Miracles and leave in 2 Chain Lightnings at least on the play. I like to trim on Daze on the draw because its not really that great and your Miracles opponent can just sandbag t2 Counterbalance to play around Daze.

[Jonny Tempel]

So guys i played FNM Legacy at my LGS with the following list:

Spells: 31
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
1x Fireblast
3x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Price of Progress
1x Thunderous Wrath
4x Chain Lightning
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder

Lands: 16
2x Island
2x Mountain
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Volcanic Island
2x Wooded Foothills

Creatures: 13
1x Bedlam Reveler
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Monastery Swiftspear
4x Stormchaser Mage (not sure which other creature i should have played in the 13th slot.)

Sideboard: 15
1x Flusterstorm
1x Force of Will
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Price of Progress
2x Pyroblast
2x Smash to Smithereens
1x Spell Pierce
1x Sudden Demise
2x Sulfuric Vortex
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Winter Orb

All in all i went 6-0 to my own surprise.

Round 1 against Burn: 2-0
Round 2 against Belcher: 2-0 (should have lost the second one as he puts 8 Goblins into play on the first Turn but ponder*2 + Brainstorm + Gitaxian Probe let me find my singleton Sudden Demise to take out all of his tokens while on 1 life... :eek: )
Round 3 against Aluren 2-1
Round 4 against Infect 2-0
Top 4 Semifinal against Grixis Delver 2-1
Final against the Infect guy from Round 4 again 2-1

If anyone is interested in a more detailed report just let me know but i think you guys already know how to play this deck.

Overall i really liked the whole deck, Wrath suprised all of my opponents and took game 2 against Aluren as he played around Fireblast and i ripped it from the top to deal lethal with a Stormchaser Mage. I will stay with the card for a while.
Sideboard has been fine too. Not sure if 1 Cage/1 Extraction is needed but i like to have at least 1 card that deals with Reanimator and to a lesser extend Storm. I would like to have 1 Grim Lavamancer somewhere in the 75 as well as a single Blood Moon but i'm not sure what to cut.

[pateuglow]

Round 1 against Burn: 2-0
Round 2 against Belcher: 2-0 (should have lost the second one as he puts 8 Goblins into play on the first Turn but ponder*2 + Brainstorm + Gitaxian Probe let me find my singleton Sudden Demise to take out all of his tokens while on 1 life... :eek: )
Round 3 against Aluren 2-1
Round 4 against Infect 2-0
Top 4 Semifinal against Grixis Delver 2-1
Final against the Infect guy from Round 4 again 2-1


Were you on the play vs Burn? I find that matchup to be not favorable myself.

[Chatto]

So Thunderous Wrath is the real deal, huh? The same goes for 3 FoW main, and one in the side. Will update the primer soon

[theMonster]

I'd like to bring up Mathieu Haas's list (http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/2017/03/19/mathieu-haas-ur-delver/) that he piloted to the top8 in Milan over the weekend: zero Prowess creatures, 3 Lavamancers, 3 TNNs, 4 Pyromancers. On its surface this list seems less explosive but more resilient and probably much better against DnT - the list also runs a 2/2 Chain Lightning/Forked Bolt split. 3 Eidolons in the side is most likely a nod to a higher presence of Storm in Europe. Since I'm new to this archetype, I don't know if this style of UR Delver has existed in the past or if it's a fresh take. Anyone have more informed opinions on this?

Thanks.

[paradigm72]

Since I'm new to this archetype, I don't know if this style of UR Delver has existed in the past or if it's a fresh take. Anyone have more informed opinions on this?

These types of lists are less common these days, but do pop up occasionally. Here are a couple I know of:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=22215&iddeck=171248
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21397&iddeck=164062

It's hard to say how good they are relative to the more "UR Prowess" builds due to the lack of sample size. We don't really know whether the win percentage is different. It's possible these are great builds and not enough people are playing them.

As an anecdote, I tried a 0-prowess build at my LGS a few weeks ago and went 3-1 with it; it definitely felt at least "fine". But I'm back on UR Prowess because I think it's got a bit higher power level.

[Smuggo]

I've been testing various mixes of grim lavamancer, snapcaster, clique and young pyro in place of stormchasers and TBH I think they're just too slow and durdly. You need to rebuild the whole deck around them so I'm returning the stormchasers as they fit with the theme of being very aggressive and they are very useful to pitch for force or just to get a threat on the board vs a chalice or sanctum prelate.

I've also tried thunderous wrath and it is great TBH. I have dropped dismember from my side in favour of thunderous main because it's just better in almost all cases and gives you the same ability to take out a larger creature like a goyf or batterskull germ if needed, but crucially it further enables that explosive early game. This feels doubly important when the meta is so heavy in decks that we don't want to let stretch out the game and get ontop of us like Miracles and D&T that we just want to close out by turn 3 or 4 wherever possible.

I am highly tempted to use a couple of forked bolt in place of chain as well. Seems like it would be good against D&T and vs mentor tokens in miracles and wide decks like elves. Will give it a try this week as I'm trying to finalise my board for tournament on Saturday (FWB trop top prize which would be a big boost to being able to finish the deck properly so I can play it in sanctioned events).

[gieli0]

I've been testing various mixes of grim lavamancer, snapcaster, clique and young pyro in place of stormchasers and TBH I think they're just too slow and durdly. You need to rebuild the whole deck around them so I'm returning the stormchasers as they fit with the theme of being very aggressive and they are very useful to pitch for force or just to get a threat on the board vs a chalice or sanctum prelate.

I've also tried thunderous wrath and it is great TBH. I have dropped dismember from my side in favour of thunderous main because it's just better in almost all cases and gives you the same ability to take out a larger creature like a goyf or batterskull germ if needed, but crucially it further enables that explosive early game. This feels doubly important when the meta is so heavy in decks that we don't want to let stretch out the game and get ontop of us like Miracles and D&T that we just want to close out by turn 3 or 4 wherever possible.

I am highly tempted to use a couple of forked bolt in place of chain as well. Seems like it would be good against D&T and vs mentor tokens in miracles and wide decks like elves. Will give it a try this week as I'm trying to finalise my board for tournament on Saturday (FWB trop top prize which would be a big boost to being able to finish the deck properly so I can play it in sanctioned events).

If you want to maindeck forked bolt, isn't fire/ice a more versatile option?
for sideboard options its fair because you can side it in for that effect, but in the maindeck it can suite a more flexible roll

[Smuggo]

If you want to maindeck forked bolt, isn't fire/ice a more versatile option?
for sideboard options its fair because you can side it in for that effect, but in the maindeck it can suite a more flexible roll

More flexible yes but also more mana and the deck runs so tight on mana I'm not sure it's practical. One of the main targets you want to use forked bolt on is Thalia and with fire//ice you're paying 3 mana for that which really slows you down.

[theMonster]

I would imagine Fire // Ice with DnT in mind is more to dodge Prelate on 1, right? I can see Fire // Ice's merits: it's blue, an instant, can replace itself. But two mana and one less damage than Chain Lightning could be prohibitive. Have people run this card consistently in the past? Is it indeed too clunky?

And good to know about the durdle-iness of the heavier Lavamancer/Pyro builds. I think the allure of this deck is its speed, so if I'm gonna durdle, I'd probably just play BUG midrange and get access to more powerful cards.

Probably too cute but could be sweet: any love for a miser's Mutagenic Growth? Saves all your dudes from Bolt; a free, instant speed 3 damage if on a Prowess creature; has the "gotcha" factor. Maybe in place of the fourth Probe, I dunno. #spitballing

[Jonny Tempel]

Were you on the play vs Burn? I find that matchup to be not favorable myself.

No i've been on the draw both games.
Game one i won with exactly 1 life left, if he had drawn a single Fireblast instead of a second Lava Spike i would have lost. He had a very creature heavy hand while i had tons of bolts and a Reveler to finish the job. Game 2 he had to mulligan and kept a medicore hand. I believe the MU to be about 45-55. Being on the play matters a ton here in my opionion too.

[Chatto]

No i've been on the draw both games.
Game one i won with exactly 1 life left, if he had drawn a single Fireblast instead of a second Lava Spike i would have lost. He had a very creature heavy hand while i had tons of bolts and a Reveler to finish the job. Game 2 he had to mulligan and kept a medicore hand. I believe the MU to be about 45-55. Being on the play matters a ton here in my opionion too.

I've linked your initial report in the tournament report-section. Maybe you could edit it with some more details of your MU's?

[Jonny Tempel]

I've linked your initial report in the tournament report-section. Maybe you could edit it with some more details of your MU's?

Wow nice thank you! I'm not sure our FNM counts as a meanilgful event though ;)

I will do my best trying to remember those 2 games.
Game 1 we both keep our hand. I've got a Delver, a Daze, a Bolt, a Chain Lightning, a Ponder and 2 fetchlands.
He goes turn one guide attack. I draw another bolt, play a fetch and pass. Guide attacks me, i let the trigger resolve to reveal another land, draw it and the bolt the guide fetching for a basic mountain. He plays a Grim Lavamancer and a Rift Bolt. I drew a force, played another fetchland, cracked it for an island, played a Delver and killed the lavamancer with a chain lightning. He plays an eidolon, double bolt my face (suspended rift Bolt + normal bolt) and passes back. I believe i drew another fetchland. Used Ponder to reveal yet another Chain Lightning, a Bedlam Reveler and a Gitaxian Probe. Played another land and killed the Eidolon, swinging for 1 with Delver and passing back. He plays Lava Spike and passes (me at 3 life). I reveal Probe, play it for 1 to find Bedlam Reveler, attack with flipped Delver and pass. He goes for another eidolon wich i force (going down to 2). Then i play reveler, discard my last land, draw force, ponder and another probe. Its quickly over from there as his next 2 draws where land and Fireblast which i counter with a force falling down to 1.

Sideboard was like:
-2 Price of Progress
-2 Gitaxian Probe
+ 1 Spell Pierce
+ 1 Force of Will
+ 1 Sudden Demise
+ 1 Flusterstorm
(I've no idea if my sideboarding was correct here)

Game 2 he mulliganed to five while i had a similar hand with 2 Bolts, 2 Lands, 1 Ponder, 1 Stormchaser Mage and 1 Daze.
He played a land and suspended a riftbolt. I drew delver, play a basic island + delver and pass. He Rift bolts the delver and plays an eidolon which i daze. I drew a force, play a fetch and pass. He goes for a lava spike to the face and another eidolon which i bolt eot after fetching for a volcanic. I play a stormchaser and attack, then pass. He draws a land a passes. I reveal Thunderous Wrath, play it, play ponder to find another Land + Force, Bolt his face and attack for a total of 12! damage. He plays a swiftspear and then proceed to draw a land and a single Price of Progess which isn't enough despite the fact that i had backup FoW anyway.


I have to admit i got lucky here, especially game two where my opponent just had a slow hand combined with bad draws and hope i remebered most of those games correctly.

[CabalTherapy]

Went 4-0 (or rather 3-0) with UR Guide yesterday after having a good result in a bigger tournament with ANT on Sunday.

My list for reference:

4 Goblin Guide (mvp)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
2 Stormchaser Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning
2 Forked Bolt
2 Price of Progress
1 Thunderous Wrath

16 lands

SB:
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Vapor Snag
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce (will cut them)
1 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Pyroblast
2 Electrickery
1 Flusterstorm

Rd1 Bye

Rd2 DnT 2:1
Game 1 is a no-game because he mulls to 4 but still has 2 lands, swords, thalia. Luckily, I can daze his Swords on my Guide, fork bolts his Thalia, force another Swords at some point and have enough Burn to finish the game.
Game 2, I keep a mediocre one-lander, he wastes me and plays Mystic on Batterskull and we go to game 3, where I have a decent start and draw both Sulfur Elemental to deal with his board.

Rd3 BUG+r Control 2:1
That's the 4c goodstuff deck without Delver. I can't remember the first game but I think I win on the back of Goblin Guide and burn spells, and Dazes. He outvalues me in game 2 rather quick and loses game 3 because he gets stuck on Badlands and I kill/counter his two Deathrites before he scoops it up.

Rd4 Shardless BUG 2:1
I mulligan to 6 and keep a sketchy hand with the basic mountain, Swiftspear and F.Bolt. I never draw another land...I am not sure what happened in game 2 but I guess I had more dudes and struggle to flip a Delver, Vortex did some work here. In the last game, he has an early Goyf but I have Delver, which gets Decayed, and two Stormchasers that gets the job done with some burn spells.

[pateuglow]

Went 4-0 (or rather 3-0) with UR Guide yesterday after having a good result in a bigger tournament with ANT on Sunday.


Something I hadn't considered with Guide is the interaction with PoP - it can (sort of) make your PoPs better I suppose.

I haven't seen GG run in many lists lately.

[CabalTherapy]

Something I hadn't considered with Guide is the interaction with PoP - it can (sort of) make your PoPs better I suppose.

I haven't seen GG run in many lists lately.

It may but I am sure that the difference is negligible.
For me it is important to play a guy on turn 1 and pressure the opp right from the start. The guide is the best
creature for that plan. I tried the generic lists with Bedlam Reveler before but most of the time it's not great, stuck in hand
or doesn't make value at all. Plus, Stormchaser is too slow sometimes but I am fairly satisfied with two copies right now.
I am definitely not an expert here but this set up fits my playstyle; at least in the context of UR.

Guide was the MVP for the second time in a row.

[paradigm72]

IMO the effect where Goblin Guide gives your opponent land is overstated - the land that it puts in their hand is one that they were going to draw the next turn anyway, so it doesn't specifically help them make that next land drop. It can help make future land drops after that one, though, just by virtue of drawing them into more total extra cards, some percentage of which are extra lands.

All that said, CabalTherapy has convinced me to give it a go :). I'm always looking for ways to get the creature count up to 14 to deal with decks that can remove our creatures early. Sleeved up this for LGS tomorrow:
4 Delver
4 Swiftspear
4 Stormchaser
2 Guide

[Chatto]

Man, I love how people are picking this deck up, and are constantly tuning/ trying different angles! Keep it up!

[jattra]

IMO the effect where Goblin Guide gives your opponent land is overstated
Guide does not help your opponent to make land drops. It helps them to draw more business cards instead of lands. I see this as big drawback.

[Rocco111]

The approach of sticking a threat T1 consistently is very important in this deck (even though there are lists which performed lately demonstrated it is not a given).
Therefore playing Guide is making sense.
When Swiftspear was first spoiled, people were praising it as the new red Tarmo and took out GG in favor of the 1-drop-Prowess.
Fact is that both also work great together and the card drawing effect has more or less impact depending on the MU. Decks like Lands-type and Heavy-Manipulation-type (such as Miracle for instance) are benefitting a lot from the card drawing effect Guide induces. Against other decks, the downside of revealing a land is not really an argument against the Goblin. Yes, every now and then, your opponent may draw an additional card. But most of the times, the card reveal will "give you intel" more than "give a free draw to your opponent", which I personally see more as a pro than a con.


The biggest issue at the moment running Delver / Guide / Swiftspear is the risk of facing a Chalice@1 T1 or T2 which hoses the deck pretty badly.
In this respect running other threats like Snapcaster / Stormchaser / TNN / Young Pyro is very interesting, each having their own strengths and weaknesses.

[Chatto]

Guide does not help your opponent to make land drops. It helps them to draw more business cards instead of lands. I see this as big drawback.

It's the same dillema Burn has, yet it's still core-creature. GG has proven itself in the past, and I believe in a hyper aggressive version of this deck you can opt for him. I do believe Mage is potentially better, albeit a bit slower, if only because it can turn your cantrips into damage, and is a flyer.

EDIT: it seems rocco111 and I have similair thoughts about GG , and Mage.

[Smuggo]

I'm not sold on Guide. Yes he is aggressive but he doesn't gain anything from our cantrips and offers our opponent pseudo card advantage.

While we share some similarities with burn, we are not burn we are a tempo deck with the aim of putting down cheap threats and stalling our opponent's board with cheap removal and free counterspells, and using cantrips as a source of both consistency and damage. We don't control the tempo of the game by potentially offering our opponent card advantage. It's also particularly bad against miracles as they can just top a land to the top and dig deeper next turn which, given the OPness of that deck, does not seem wise to me.

Going so frontloaded also denies us the ability to remain a threat in the late game and a chalice or prelate on 1 is basically gg if 10-12 of your creatures have CMC 1 and almost all your burn and cantrip costs 1. Personally I feel more comfortable with two late-game threats in the form of Reveler and TNN in my board.

If you're finding Guide is working for you then that's cool, but I'd be interested in how it does at a larger event like a GP as I'm not sure it has the consistency to beat out a large and varied field over many rounds.

For my tournament on Saturday I think I'm definitely going for the two forked bolt plan. In almost all cases it has played largely the same role as chain lightning, which is to take out a problematic creature. Since most creatures that are in bolt range are actually only toughness 1 or 2 anyway (things like delver, DRS, Mom, etc...) it can kill them as well as chain and it also gives you the chance to send 1 damage to the face in many situations which is really nice.

[jattra]

Just a small correction: Sanctum Prelate on 1 does not prevent Goblin Guide at all. In fact, your prowess creatures are worse under Prelate than Guide is.

[Smuggo]

Just a small correction: Sanctum Prelate on 1 does not prevent Goblin Guide at all. In fact, it's the opposite. Your prowess creatures are much worse under Prelate than Guide is.

Yeah you're right, that's me forgetting the actual text. For some reason I thought it worked exactly the same as Chalice.

[Agrippa91]

Hi guys!

I haven't played a league with my deck since it's mostly for funsies, but I fine tuned it and am honestly a bit shocked by the power level UR Delver posesses. I mean I remember it from the TC era where I started playing, but this deck still feels very similar. It's brutal how the simple "burn" plan works out when backed up by FoW and Daze!

Here's my current list:

12 Creatures:
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Stormchaser Mage

32 Instants & Sorceries:
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
1 Forked Bolt
2 Price of Progress
1 Fireblast
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
1 Set Adrift

16 Lands:
2 Island
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire

Sideboard (15):
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Vapor Snag
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Sulfuric Vortex


About some card choices:

I cut the Reveler alltogether. He just was sooo clunky whenever I drew him and was really only good vs. Miracles. There he was weird post-sideboard though because sometimes I'd have to give up REBS in my hand should he resolve. I'm currently trying out [Set Adrift] which looks pretty good on paper and fits the tempo-aspect of the deck more. Having a maindeck answer to Chalice, Counterbalance and Angler, if only for a turn, is sweet. 1 turn is a lot of time when playing this deck!

I really like the Rough/Tumble in the sideboard, they're just great against a lot of decks. I don't consider Goblin Guide partly because of the powerlevel of this card and because I want my Dazes to be as good as possible (they're already mediocre, but necessary).

The Vendilion Clique I tried turned out rather poor, it got stuck alongside Reveler in my hand way too often. Not playing Shaman and having to Daze really didn't help casting it. Also against decks I struggled and wanted it against (Miracles, S&S) it just got pyroblasted more often than not. I enjoy not having 3-power things that get pyroblasted (looking at you, TNN) and hence also prefer Sulfuric Vortex against Lands and Miracles. Fair matchups are favorable enough that I don't need a TNN there.

The Vapor Snags might seems weird, they're mostly there for 2 reasons though: Lands can play around PoP sometimes and just create a quick 20/20. And BR reanimator doesn't play FoW, so bouncing their big dude is a very real problem for them. Also Turbo-Depths is a thing. The only Delver deck I like it against is Grixis because they have Anglers as well as Delvers.

I like Tormod's Crypt over something like Surgical Extraction because it triggers prowess exactly when I want it. With Vapor Snags I don't feel like I need the t1-otd answers for BR reanimator. While I love Surgical in Grixis due to Therapy, Shamans and the reactive playstyle Tormod's Crypt just does one thing and does is nearly perfect which suits this deck very well.

For only playing 8 counters I was surprised how good this deck can fare against combo once you tune the sideboard a bit. I still want 4 FoWs in the main because combo are some of our harder matchups. Since the "fair matchup" sideboarding should be fairly obvious I'll talk about the boarding against combo a bit:

B/R reanimator:
-2 PoP
-1 Forked Bolt
-3 Chain Lightning
+2 Vapor Snag
+2 Tormod's Crypt
+2 Flusterstorm

U/B reanimator:
-2 PoP
-1 Forked Bolt
-3 Chain Lightning
-1 Set Adrift
+2 Pyroblast
+1 Red Elemental Blast
+2 Tormod's Crypt
+2 Flusterstorm

(UB reanimator could draw 7 with grizzeldaddy and FoW my bounce spell, UB can't)

ANT:
-2 PoP
-1 Forked Bolt
-1 Set Adrift
+2 Flusterstorm
+2 Tormod's Crypt

TES:
-2 PoP
-1 Forked Bolt
-1 Set Adrift
+2 Flusterstorm
+2 Rough/Tumble

Only ANT relies on the gy, TES has ETW (hehe) besides Ad Nauseam (also pretty mediocre against UR in general)

Sneak & Show:
-2 PoP
-1 F-Bolt
-1 Fireblast
-1 Set Adrift
+2 Pyroblast
+1 REB
+2 Flusterstorm

Fireblast is propably the worst of the burn spells because it's hard to rely upon when you're attacking for potentially lethal because they play FoW/Flusterstorm.
When you look at the boarding for Storm and S&S you can see why I only want 1 F-Bolt, it's because I want all my bolts to deal 3 damage postboard in my combo matchups.

I'm actually confident enough in my list that I'll give it a shot at a league these next days, I'll give you a report on how it goes, no matter how much I lose :tongue:

[jattra]

I was also thinking about Set Adrift but I rather prefer something I can cast at instant speed. I want to use it against lands.
BTW: what do you guys think about Reality Shift in SB against lands, S&S, reanimator and maybe eldrazi? Is it insane?

[Smuggo]

I was also thinking about Set Adrift but I rather prefer something I can cast at instant speed. I want to use it against lands.
BTW: what do you guys think about Reality Shift in SB against lands, S&S, reanimator and maybe eldrazi? Is it insane?

I like the idea of Set Adrift mainboard actually because it gives me a bit more confidence about playing into an unknown deck without any counter magic in my opening hand. There's nothing worse than seeing a ancient tomb into T1 chalice resolve and knowing you can do absolutely nothing about it. And anything that can work around that and counterbalance or any other annoying card on the board is definitely worth thinking about. Reality shift also seems like a decent siderboard card, maybe better than vapor snag actually as again it is easier to get around counterbalance, chalice, prelate etc... and deals with its target permanently.

What are people's thoughts on those game 1 hands? I am always agonising over whether I should aggressively mull for countermagic, even when I've got an otherwise amazing hand.

[CabalTherapy]

I see this as big drawback.

I have the experience that when you start pressuring opponents with Guides, even on the draw, their potential card advantage is insignificant because they won't be able to
play out their entire hands that fast.

[Agrippa91]

I was also thinking about Set Adrift but I rather prefer something I can cast at instant speed. I want to use it against lands.
BTW: what do you guys think about Reality Shift in SB against lands, S&S, reanimator and maybe eldrazi? Is it insane?

Are you playing the reactive UR version or why do you want your stuff to be instant? Set adrift is not great against lands, but it can deal with Marit Lage should one of your 8 fliers block it for 1 turn or should you "force" them to crack via PoP (most lands players will do even if it's not lethal). But yeah, post-sb I definitely prefer Vapor Snag which imo is superior to Reality Shift. Let's talk about the matchups you mentioned:
lands: superior
S&S: none of these two cards should be brought in since they Emrakul and Sneak Attack can't be targeted by this and Griseldaddy just draws them cards in response. Flusterstorms and Pyroblasts are the sideboard cards you want.
Reanimator: I'd only suggest Bouncing their creatures if they don't play blue and thus can't draw out of it via FoW (draw 7 in response with Griselbrand which is their default creature). Against blue reanimator your pyroblasts are far better than bounce, mostly against opposing FoWs and against Careful Study/Brainstorm.
Eldrazi: Both these cards seem pretty medoicre against Eldrazi and have their ups and downs. It just seems like a really bad Pongify though. The way to beat them still is Smash to Smithereens, Price of Progress and fast flyers, perhaps stalling with TNN if you play that.

[jattra]

Are you playing the reactive UR version or why do you want your stuff to be instant? Set adrift is not great against lands, but ...
I am playing the prowess build. You just nailed that. Set Adrift is not good against lands. Imo, it's uncastable before turn 4 and only sorcery speed.
Vapor Snag is certainly good against lands.
I understand the strategy to fight reanimate and sneak attack with counter magic but I wanted to have some kind of safety net if that strategy fails.

[Agrippa91]

I dunno about "turn 4", but yeah, it's really there against creatures that cost 2+ mana and random artifacts and enchantment lock pieces. Unlike Reveler it also pitches to FoW, I enjoy playing a deck that just doesn't have dead cards against combo game 1 :D

It's pretty much common consensus that it's the wrong approach to try to fight decks that cheat Griselbrand into play after they have Griselbrand out. It's been tried and it just never is good unless they don't play blue and thus have no way to draw into counters.

[Whitefaces]

Yeah, if you're planning to set a Griselbrand adrift you're gonna have a bad time.

I like the card, it can get you out of a Counterbalance lock crucially (until they show you a Terminus...)

[Smuggo]

I dunno about "turn 4", but yeah, it's really there against creatures that cost 2+ mana and random artifacts and enchantment lock pieces. Unlike Reveler it also pitches to FoW, I enjoy playing a deck that just doesn't have dead cards against combo game 1 :D

It's pretty much common consensus that it's the wrong approach to try to fight decks that cheat Griselbrand into play after they have Griselbrand out. It's been tried and it just never is good unless they don't play blue and thus have no way to draw into counters.

I dunno, I find that with so much direct damage, goading them into pay 7 life to draw can be beneficial in the right circumstances. We have so much burn that if you can get them to greedily search for a force to stop a bounce we can often follow it up with lethal as they'll be in a position where they can no longer afford the 7 life.

[CabalTherapy]

Vapor Snag is a good one. Bouncing one of those Delve creatures is pure juice.

btw: Hanni, your inbox is full.

[Agrippa91]

I dunno, I find that with so much direct damage, goading them into pay 7 life to draw can be beneficial in the right circumstances. We have so much burn that if you can get them to greedily search for a force to stop a bounce we can often follow it up with lethal as they'll be in a position where they can no longer afford the 7 life.

They don't have to pay the life, you know how good a 7/7 flying lifelink creature on t1-3 is against us? Bounce is only good in the rare corner cases where they either brick on counterspells (unlikely) or are at such a low life total that you can burn them out in response (not impossible, but also unlikely).
I'm not gonna hinder you any further though, if you want to play it try it out yourself.

[Smuggo]

They don't have to pay the life, you know how good a 7/7 flying lifelink creature on t1-3 is against us? Bounce is only good in the rare corner cases where they either brick on counterspells (unlikely) or are at such a low life total that you can burn them out in response (not impossible, but also unlikely).
I'm not gonna hinder you any further though, if you want to play it try it out yourself.

Yes they're totally valid points. I have however managed to fight through a resolved Grisel before. T1/2 resolved is almost always a scooper but realistically after battles over things resolving they actually get it down by T3 more often, which means we have a chance when on the play. It is very possible that by t3 or sometimes even turn 2 we can get the opponent down to 10-11 life which puts them in range

I've had a couple games against SnS where I've got them down to approx half their life total before Grisel hits the board and then sent removal at him and forced an activation, only to follow up with more damage to the face in response to get the kill. It obviously requires a fair bit of luck to have access to enough bolts and that aggressive start as well. But if you have have vapor snag you can force that reaction with just one card and one mana, rather than potentially 2 or even 3 bolt-like spells. I'm not saying it's easy or likely, but I wouldn't just discount being able to pull off those sorts of things. I'll try it out online when I get the chance and see, but swapping a git probe or forked bolt for it doesn't seem like it would cripple you, though of course fluster and pyroblast/red elemental are your ideal sideboard options there.

[TheManWithaPlan]

Going to try out a Thunderous Wrath in place of a Chain Lightning tonight. Apparently it's been gaining some popularity, so I want to see how I feel with it in practice. As for Reveler, the last time I played UR Delver I didn't ever get to cast it, however I would like a bigger sample size to make a better decision. I'll share my thoughts about these 2 cards after tonight.

[paradigm72]

Anybody have experience against the newer RG Lands build with 4 Ghost Quarter instead of 4 Rishadan Port? I got crushed yesterday by this build, and it felt like I would have won if he'd been on Ports. Even though we have basics to fight against Ghost Quarter, it allows them to play around Price of Progress so much better because they constantly sac their nonbasics, instead of keeping 2 extra in play for each Port activation. I was only able to PoP twice for 4 + 6 before getting all my lands GQed/Wasted.

[TheManWithaPlan]

To follow up on Thunderous Wrath and Bedlam Reveler, I was not impressed. For Thunderous Wrath, I felt it was quite poor. Getting it stuck in my hand was just depressing. I did get to miracle it once and even then it wasn't that impressive. I just feel like it is a stronger Lightning Bolt that you just can't cast. As for Reveler, I again didn't see it very much, however I just don't like it being stuck in my hand.

A general statement I could make that applies to both of these is that I just don't want cards in this deck that have an extremely high ceiling but in turn have a very low floor. I just want my deck to be as streamlined as it can be, as I just don't like how these cards can be extremely clunky and can actually cause you to lose games.

Back to good old Grim Lavamancer for me.

[Chatto]

(...)What are people's thoughts on those game 1 hands? I am always agonising over whether I should aggressively mull for countermagic, even when I've got an otherwise amazing hand.

I will only mull for counters if I really need it, for instance vs combo.


Anybody have experience against the newer RG Lands build with 4 Ghost Quarter instead of 4 Rishadan Port? I got crushed yesterday by this build, and it felt like I would have won if he'd been on Ports. Even though we have basics to fight against Ghost Quarter, it allows them to play around Price of Progress so much better because they constantly sac their nonbasics, instead of keeping 2 extra in play for each Port activation. I was only able to PoP twice for 4 + 6 before getting all my lands GQed/Wasted.

I play RGCL myself, and just one piece of advice: the deck is made to kill your average Delver-deck. Fast hands are the way to go, and just hope for the best.


(...) A general statement I could make that applies to both of these is that I just don't want cards in this deck that have an extremely high ceiling but in turn have a very low floor. I just want my deck to be as streamlined as it can be, as I just don't like how these cards can be extremely clunky and can actually cause you to lose games.

Back to good old Grim Lavamancer for me.

I have the same feeling about Reveler (already down to one), and I think it would apply to Wrath as well. Thing is that people either don't care about those issues, or play the deck better (which in my case could be it :smile:). I was also thinking about maindecking Grim Lavamancer, as a two of. What does your current build look like?

[Jonny Tempel]

So a quick question, Blood Moon worth it or not as a sideboard card?
Is it just to slow?

[CabalTherapy]

So a quick question, Blood Moon worth it or not as a sideboard card?
Is it just to slow?

Generally I would say way too slow but luckily since there is no standardized list of UR, it might come handy in the more conrollish builds with more lands and TNNs.
I wouldnt recommend it though playing it in the list that was propagated by Mengucci or Jonathan Alexander because I think the MUs where Moon comes in can also
be tacked with other cards.

[Jonny Tempel]

Generally I would say way too slow but luckily since there is no standardized list of UR, it might come handy in the more conrollish builds with more lands and TNNs.
I wouldnt recommend it though playing it in the list that was propagated by Mengucci or Jonathan Alexander because I think the MUs where Moon comes in can also
be tacked with other cards.

The has been my impression too. I was just asking because a guy at my LGS brought up that card for discussion.

[CabalTherapy]

The has been my impression too. I was just asking because a guy at my LGS brought up that card for discussion.

Always good to come up with new ideas. Sometimes I just scroll throught magiccards.info to find new cards for storm (no really strike made yet) and UR.

[Agrippa91]

I don't like Blood Moon in decks that can only cast them on turn 3 at the earliest. Against decks that don't play basics (pretty much only Delver decks and Eldrazi nowadays) you get just beaten down too hard while you try to cast clunky 3-drop (also Daze is a thing). All the other decks pretty much play enough basics. Postboard decks like RG lands will have answers and generally people will play around PoP anyways once you reveal you're on UR Delver. So why play a potentially dead card for 3 mana when you can play a card for 2 mana that, if it doesn't kill them, at least advances your game plan significantly?

[TheManWithaPlan]

I don't like Blood Moon in decks that can only cast them on turn 3 at the earliest. Against decks that don't play basics (pretty much only Delver decks and Eldrazi nowadays) you get just beaten down too hard while you try to cast clunky 3-drop (also Daze is a thing). All the other decks pretty much play enough basics. Postboard decks like RG lands will have answers and generally people will play around PoP anyways once you reveal you're on UR Delver. So why play a potentially dead card for 3 mana when you can play a card for 2 mana that, if it doesn't kill them, at least advances your game plan significantly?

I think you hit the nail right on the head here why Blood Moon isn't that great in U/R Delver.

@Chatto I wouldn't mind writing more on the matchups section of the primer to keep it up to speed with the current decks to beat. I am a little busy right now but might be able to squeeze in some time in the coming week to do some writing.

[Chatto]

I think you hit the nail right on the head here why Blood Moon isn't that great in U/R Delver.

@Chatto I wouldn't mind writing more on the matchups section of the primer to keep it up to speed with the current decks to beat. I am a little busy right now but might be able to squeeze in some time in the coming week to do some writing.

About Blood Moon: yep, I thought it was Great (and it was in certain mu's), but it is too clunky indeed.

@ TMWAP: you got my emailadress :smile:

[pateuglow]

I'd agree with the evaluation of Blood Moon. That being said, it sometimes feels so good to slam it versus Eldrazi or BUG, but often it's too little, too late.

[Poron]

why Blood Moon against Eldrazi when this deck has the colors to SnapMage PoProgress back and chump block with it?

you just need to reach turn 4-5 consistently

[pateuglow]

why Blood Moon against Eldrazi when this deck has the colors to SnapMage PoProgress back and chump block with it?

you just need to reach turn 4-5 consistently

Because I can't remember a time when I had 4 mana to make that play consistently on a turn relevant in the Eldrazi matchup.

With Eldrazi having Chalice, Wasteland, and a fast clock, I don't think you can wait until then to snap back a PoP

[Smuggo]

A bit late as I've been travelling but here's my tournament writeup. I did not do very well going 1-4-1, partly unfavourable matchups and partly some misplays by me. However a UR list did win the tournament. The decklist for that hasn't been posted yet but I'm interested to see what he was running.

My list:

Main (60)
1 Bedlam Reveler
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Brainstorm
3 Chain Lightning
4 Daze
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Fireblast
3 Flooded Strand
3 Force of Will
1 Forked Bolt
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Island
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Monastery Swiftspear
2 Mountain
4 Ponder
2 Price of Progress
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Stormchaser Mage
1 Thunderous Wrath
1 True-Name Nemesis
3 Volcanic Island

Sideboard (15)
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Rough // Tumble
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Vapor Snag
1 Winter Orb

Match 1 vs Miracles 1-1-1: I'm playing vs a very competent player who won the February event. He beats me fairly easily G1, in G2 I get an early winter orb and slowly this cuts off his resources and I am able to win but it takes a long time. As we start the final game time is up and turns are called, he get counter top down but cannot win in time so we call a draw.

Match 2 vs 4c Delver 1-2: I play my friend who I have a ton of experience against. Usually I win this as I'm just faster than him. He takes G1 with DRS just keeping him alive long enough to get me. G2 we both put TNNs down turn 3 but I have more direct damage so he's on a difficult clock and loses. G3 I get him to 1 life while only on 2 life myself, again DRS is keeping him in it. I bolt to finish him off, he brainstorms, i flusterstorm the brainstorm... and he has a daze in hand for my bolt that I can't pay for. I still think flustering the brainstorm was probably the right play, but he played well to use that to bait out my countermagic.

Match 3 vs Miracles 1-2: This player is much less experienced. G1 is a grind, he get a counterbalance down but he never managed to find a top. I am able to grind him down a bit but eventually he finds mentor and is able to get a load of tokens I can do little about with his cantrips. G2 I get creatures on the board and put the pressure on. He gets mentor and 2x tops, makes a ton of token but I have sulfur elemental in hand to deal with it and he goes down shortly after. Final game we are again at time but he very quickly get mentor down again and I give him the game.

Match 4 vs Elves 1-2: I win game 1 easily with delver pressure from the start and bolts to keep him in check. G2 I make a huge misplay and fail to hide my bolts with brainstorm when he Cabal therapies me. He gets two bolts off it then repeats to take my only counter and kills me with craterhoof. G3 he gets a natural order resolved and gets Ruric Thar which is scoop time for me.

Match 5 vs OmniTell 2-1: He gets some rough hands and I am ready with countermagic each game. G1 I slow him down with force and put threats on board and when he eventually get Grisel I am able to place a TNN with show and tell and finish him next turn with that and a couple of bolts. G2 I force intuition but he has another and he managed to get Omni down and an Emrakul before i can finish him and it's GG. G3 he mulled quite hard and just couldn't draw into what he needed and went down fast to my double abberations.

Match 6 vs B/R Reanimator 1-2: Game 1 I had to mull to 5 due to no lands and just didn't have the countermagic to stop him. G2 I have all the countermagic I need and a threat. Get him low, he managed to put a Griselband on the board but I block and bolt my own abberation to stop the lifegain, then a chain, a bolt and fireblast finishes him. G3 chancellor reveal slows me down, he then gets Elesh Norn and Grisel into his GY with Faithless Looting. He casts animate dead so I surgical the grisel in response to he takes elesh. I dig desperately for some answer as I have a hand full of creatures that die to Elesh but also a couple of stormchasers that could buy me time, but I am stick with one land and just can't find another and the 3 damage clock does me in.

It was fun to play. I never felt like I got completely crushed and many games were close. Some misplays for me to learn from, but getting matched vs miracles twice really hurt me early on. I'll post the winning U/R list once I know it. I think I might drop thunderous wrath but not sure what should go in its place. I might rebalance my SB too as grafdiggers just seems a wasted slot in the current meta. Maybe another Pyroblast/REB to give me more ability to deal with counter-top situations, though it is still hard with any 1 mana spell to deal with counterbalance.

[paradigm72]

he then gets Elesh Norn and Grisel into his GY with Faithless Looting. He casts animate dead so I surgical the grisel in response to he takes elesh. I dig desperately for some answer as I have a hand full of creatures that die to Elesh but also a couple of stormchasers that could buy me time, but I am stick with one land and just can't find another and the 3 damage clock does me in.


Unless I am really misunderstanding something, you got robbed here - Animate Dead is an aura which targets a specific creature card in the graveyard. It should fizzle if you Surgical its target.

[Smuggo]

Unless I am really misunderstanding something, you got robbed here - Animate Dead is an aura which targets a specific creature card in the graveyard. It should fizzle if you Surgical its target.

Ah ok I think we both misunderstood the ruling then, it was a revised AD so possibly old wording confused both. I think it was a genuine mistake and didn't much matter at that point as we were both near the bottom but good to know for next time.

[RobNC]

Ah ok I think we both misunderstood the ruling then, it was a revised AD so possibly old wording confused both. I think it was a genuine mistake and didn't much matter at that point as we were both near the bottom but good to know for next time.

Don't worry, even the official oracle text is confusing as hell and has to be read multiple times.

[TheManWithaPlan]

Trying Fireblast on Friday. There is something to these big spells. So far with a couple goldfishes it feels much better than Thunderous Wrath or Bedlam Reveler because of how easy it is to cast. The fact that you don't need mana to cast it is what breaks this card. I haven't found any trouble casting it and isn't as much of a stinker while rotting in your hand as Reveler or Wrath. It also contributes to our primary game plan far more than the Reveler could in situations where we are ahead, which should be most of the time. Hypothetically if I was ahead in a game and needed a couple more turns to swing in with creatures to win the game, I would much rather see Fireblast than Bedlam Reveler. I feel like Fireblast is a good topdeck starting much earlier in the game than Bedlam Reveler is, but isn't going to get you back from behind unless your opponent is at 4.

Will report and if that goes well I might play it on Saturday or Sunday.

[Hanni]

Thunderous Wrath is a difficult card to evaluate, especially as a 1-of. I think the blind draws from Ponder (when shuffling) and Probe can make Wrath a bit more akward here, which makes it even harder to evaluate.

In R/u Sligh, the math seems to suggest that I'm rarely going to see Wrath, but when I do, 50%+ of the time it will be in my opening hand, and less than 50% it will get miracled off the top. However, when evaluating the chance to see a single Brainstorm over the course of the game, the math changes to roughly 75% of the time it will be enabled and 25% of the time it will be a blank. Given the fact that Wrath deals nearly two burn spells worth of damage, I believe that the risk vs reward is in the favor of Wrath. At the very least, a 2/1 split of Fireblast and Wrath seems better than 3 Fireblast, in that deck.

However, in this deck, there are much better burn spells to run before considering a card like Wrath. A 1-of Fireblast surely seems better, if you are not yet running any. I'd also consider both Rift Bolt and Forked Bolt before Wrath as well.

[Smuggo]

From my experience, I've never struggled to miracle thunderous wrath. I've sometimes thrown away an opening hand with it but that was usually due to either lack of land or just being a poor hand in other ways, not because Thunderous was in it. Almost always you will be able to put it back ontop with brainstorm if needed and it's rare when you can't cast it for miracle cost in your draw step. The problem it does have is it will almost always attract a counter. This could be good or bad, as they might use a force of will on it and lose card advantage which frankly is good for our one mana cost and stops that force being used on more critical spells. Unless it's super early they might daze, but again we gain tempo and they essentially burn countermagic on not much or we can just pay for it.

That said though, it often doesn't get us close enough to victory.

I am coming round to the idea of Goblin Guide as he is a cheap threat that stays on board for potentially a turn or two, and if they hit him with removal then that is removal that could have been used on better later game creatures like delver and swiftspear. Maybe I will drop thunderous and perhaps bedlam in the main and try him out. Rift bolt could be a plan too as it is much harder for miracles to counterbalance it, though it does give them time to set up for it.

[Chatto]

Regarding Fireblast: I've been playing one since I picked up this deck. Never looked back, it's a good Burn-spell.

[jattra]

I included Thunderous Wrath in my deck for last two local events and I am happy with it.
I also play Fireblast. That is the card that enables your 10+ dmg turns.
Another tech I included is Sudden Shock to kill annoying creatures such as Monastery Mentor, Deathrite Shaman or just anything when they have Mother of Runes. Imagine their face when they are keeping their shaman ready to gain life in response to your spell and never get to activate it (alert, personal hate for lifegain detected).
I moved a singleton Bedlam Reveler to the sideboard. I think he is really good against Miracles and some Chalice decks.
I completely cut Gitaxian Probe. I don't like the card in any scenario other than free prowess trigger and that happens quite rarely. With so much removal around, I often just play probe with an empty board, crossing fingers that I draw into a threat. It is also bad with the new play toy Thunderous Wrath. Instead of probe, I put Preordain, Spell Pierce and more bolts in the deck.
Now, if you already think I ruined the deck, wait for the last card. It's Divert in SB to punish black mages for casting Hymn to Tourach and Abrupt Decay.

Complete list:

16 Lands
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Stormchaser Mage
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Grim Lavamancer

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
2 Price of Progress
1 Fireblast
1 Forked Bolt
1 Sudden Shock
1 Thunderous Wrath

Sideboard:
1 Bedlam Reveler
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Divert
1 Echoing Truth
1 Vapor Snag
1 Null Rod
2 Price of Progress
2 Pyroblast
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Surgical Extraction

[Jonny Tempel]

So i'm back from the tournament i tested the last few weeks for. I finally decided against Reveler and Clique in the main to play 2 Lavamancers.

My list:

Spells: 31
4x Chain Lightning
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Force of Will
2x Price of Progress
1x Fireblast
1x Thunderous Wrath

Lands: 16
2x Island
1x Mountain
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Volcanic Island
2x Wooded Foothills

Creatures: 13
4x Delver of Secrets
2x Grim Lavamancer
4x Monastery Swiftspear
3x Stormchaser Mage

Sideboard: 15
1x Flusterstorm
1x Force of Will
1x Pithing Needle
1x Price of Progress
2x Pyroblast
2x Smash to Smithereens
1x Spell Pierce
1x Sudden Demise
2x Sulfuric Vortex
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Vendilion Clique


I will make some quick write up:

Match 1 against UB Tezzerator 0-2
This was the only MU the whole day which felt just unwinnable to be honest.
Game 1 i got him down to 10 life quickly with a good hand when he got out a Chalice on one followed with a Chalice on two and 2 walking Balistas. I had a fireblast and PoP in hand but he had played around and finished me off before i could draw something relevant. Got mana flooded too so maybe i could have won that game as he had a slow start.
Game two he tried to go for Chalice on 1 again which i forced only to get trinisphered out of the game on turn 2. I drew the Smash to Smithereens but was stuck on two lands for to long.

Match 2 against Maverick 2-1
Game 1 i ran him over very quick.
Game 2 takes like forever (30 minutes?) as i drew bolt after bolt to deal with his Stoneforge Mystics and other small creatures and him decaying/swording all of my creatures. At one point he gets a Thalia+ Jitte through my bolts/counters and i concede at a low life total to have some more minutes left for the last game.
Game 3 is similar to game 1 but i'm able to land a sulfuric vortex on turn 3 which finally gets him after a bunch of burn spells to the face and chipping away with a Stormchaser Mage.

Match 3 against Miracles 2-0
Game 1 i have a very good draw as he is forced to sword a turn 1 Lavamancer only for me to land double delver with counter and bolt backup.
Game 2 is way more grindy, i manage to keep counterbalance of the table with Pyroblast only land one creature at a time to let him kinda waste his terminus. I manage to get him down to 8 with a flipped Delver in play when i topdeck Wrath so he has to force it with his last card in hand only to get fireblasted for the win.

Match 4 against BUG Delver 2-1
Game 1 is "funny" he goes DRS, i play Lavamancer and pass. He then tries to Hymn me and discards BOTH of my lands, following up with a wasteland on my volcanic and i never draw another land for the next 5 turns. LOL
Game 2 and 3 i'm just to fast for him. His DRS and Delvers always die to bolts while i can simply ignore his Tombstalker. He has to commit most of his removal spells to keep my Delvers and Lavamancers of the board so various prowess guys + bolts/PoPs can finish him off. Daze is just a house in those games if you can keep DRS of the table. Those BUG list may have far more powerful cards than we do but the deck is very clunky when interupted and pressured early.

Match 5 against Miracles (1-2)
Damn it. Another bad MU.
Game 1 is over pretty fast as i have a fast start and Wrath deals enough (unexpected) damage to get me through.
Game 2 i'm to slow and get toplocked while he is still at ~ 10 life.
Game 3 Is grindy again but i'm able to deploy a Vortex through his counters. I have a bad feeling this could be a turn to late as he drops and Elspeth, Knight Errant and start making tokens. We battle for some more rounds when he is finally on 3 (going to 1 from the upkeep trigger) and i'm on 8 life when i pass the turn back with a swiftspear on board and him with Elspeth and 2 Tokens. So he's dead if he does not get 6 damage through my swiftspear to let my own vortex kill me which he is not able to do even with a removal spell. He gives one of his tokens +3/+3 and flying, then plays his topdecked second copy of Elspeth, gives the other token +3/+3 and flying too and just straight out kills me while he wins on 1 life left. God damn it! It was sooo close.

So i finally dropped at 3-2, only 1 win short from having a chance to top8. The #8 seat of top 8 had 10 points (all others had 12-15) but there were about 8 playes with 9 points, including me. Nevertheless i really really enjoyed most of my games and had a nice time. I made only a few minor mistakes and i feel that with a little more luck/skill i could have easily made top8 despite having to fight through 3-4 rough MU's.


I was satisified with my last minute changes, even if i never got to activate Lavamancer, he forced my opponents to make suboptimal lines of play trying to remove him asap. Wrath was really good too. He only got stuck in my hand once where i was able to brainstorm him back on top of my library after 1-2 turns and get rid of an opposing Knight of the Reliquary on my upkeep for only R.




Edit: I like the idea of a 1-of Divert in the board. Seems like a fun and unexpected but maybe sometimes to narrow card.

[pateuglow]

I am coming round to the idea of Goblin Guide as he is a cheap threat that stays on board for potentially a turn or two, and if they hit him with removal then that is removal that could have been used on better later game creatures like delver and swiftspear. Maybe I will drop thunderous and perhaps bedlam in the main and try him out. Rift bolt could be a plan too as it is much harder for miracles to counterbalance it, though it does give them time to set up for it.

Why do you consider Swiftspear a later game creature? It feels pretty bad once they have dropped any blocker.

[Smuggo]

Why do you consider Swiftspear a later game creature? It feels pretty bad once they have dropped any blocker.

So by "later game" I really mean T2/3. Guide is only ever a 2/2 but swiftspear can and often does become a lot bigger. I find if you have mana open it rarely gets blocked wheras guide usually will. Plus if you drop swiftspear T1 then it is often swinging for 3 T2, sometimes 4, which makes it a more impactful threat beyond the first turn or two.

[Holden1669]

I'm thinking of playing Legacy for the first time in a few years and I'm looking at this deck. I've noticed that no one seems to run Young Pyromancer. Is Stormchaser Mage that much better? Also has anyone tried Wastelands over Price of Progress recently? Thanks for the guidance.

[Chatto]

I'm thinking of playing Legacy for the first time in a few years and I'm looking at this deck. I've noticed that no one seems to run Young Pyromancer. Is Stormchaser Mage that much better? Also has anyone tried Wastelands over Price of Progress recently? Thanks for the guidance.

Welcome back! :smile: YP is usually played in a controlish build, this deck is more about maximazing damage. Same goes for Wasteland, I think. PoP does damage, against some decks (almost all decks nowadays) it's a certain 6+ damage if not reacted upon. This deck also has one of the more stable manabases in Legacy, and with so few lands it's hard to squeeze in Wasteland. If you like to play those cards, check out UR Control.

[pateuglow]

I'll be streaming UR Delver tonight on Twitch in the Community Legacy League on MTGO

8:30 EST

www.Twitch.tv/pateuglow

[Chatto]

I'll be streaming UR Delver tonight on Twitch in the Community Legacy League on MTGO

8:30 EST

www.Twitch.tv/pateuglow

Nice! Will try and check it out. Will you record it?

[pateuglow]

Nice! Will try and check it out. Will you record it?

Yeah, all my streams are archived on twitch for up to 3 months I think

[CabalTherapy]

I'll be streaming UR Delver tonight on Twitch in the Community Legacy League on MTGO

8:30 EST

www.Twitch.tv/pateuglow

Go with the Guide list. :cool:

[pateuglow]

Go with the Guide list. :cool:

Monastery Swiftspear and Stormchaser Mage have been too good to me to leave behind.:laugh:

I will be playing my usual list, with 1 Thunderous Wrath and 1 Fireblast

[CabalTherapy]

Monastery Swiftspear and Stormchaser Mage have been too good to me to leave behind.:laugh:

I will be playing my usual list, with 1 Thunderous Wrath and 1 Fireblast

4 GGuide
4 Swiftspear
4 Delver
2 Stormchaser

Ok, good luck. 8:30 EST unfortunately is too late for me.

[grendl]

I'm playing the Bazar Of Moxem legacy tournament in Paris this weekend. (all sold out, 450 participants)

I would like some input on my list and sideboard strategy.

It's a stock UR delver list with a slight variation for:
- 2 grim lavamancer main: I like this card over true-name nemesis and bedlam reveler, lavamancer gives extra removal against all the x/1 and x/2 creatures in the format and gives more reach.
- 3 price of progress main: this card is one of the main reasons to play this deck, that's why I play three main and none in the side. If it's good it stays in, if not i board them out.

main 60 cards
_____________

4 delver of secrets
4 monastery swiftspear
1 grim lavamancer
3 stormchaser mage
1 true-name nemesis

4 daze
4 force of will

4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
3 price of progress

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 gitaxian probe

2 island
2 mountain
3 volcanic island
4 scalding tarn
2 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
1 bloodstained mire

__________________
sideboard 15 cards
__________________
2 pyroblast
2 flusterstorm
2 surgical extraction
1 grafdigger's cage
1 roast
1 dismember
2 smash to smithereens
2 sulfuric vortex
1 electrickery
1 grim lavamancer

other cards I considered:
- vendilion clique
- winter orb
- pithing needle
- null rod
- shattering spree
- dismember
- true-name nemesis
- bedlam reveler

________
miracles
________
- 3 price of progress - they have enough basics
- 2 probe
- 2 chain lightning

+ 2 pyroblast
+ 2 flusterstorm
+ 2 sulfuric vortex (very good against control decks)
+ 1 surgical extraction (target terminus or swords)

_____________
death and taxes
_____________
- 1 daze
- 2 probe
- 1 force
- 1 ponder
- 1 price of progress

+ 1 electrickery
+ 1 grim lavamancer
+ 2 smash to smithereens (vial, equipment)
+ 1 roast
+ 1 sulfuric vortex

_______
eldrazi
_______
- 4 probe - not sure about this, maybe split between 2 probe and 2 chain lightning?

+ 2 smash to smithereens (chalice)
+ 1 roast (against the big eldrazi bodies)
+ 1 dismember

_____________
shardless BUG
_____________
- 4 fow
- 4 probe

+ 2 sulfurix vortex
+ 2 smash to smithereens (baleful strix, shardless agent)
+ 2 pyroblast (baleful strix, shardless agent, blue spells)
+ 1 roast (tarmogoyf)
+ 1 dismember

______
infect
______
- 4 probe

+ 1 electrickery
+ 1 grim lavamancer
+ 2 flusterstorm

_________
reanimator
_________
- 3 price of progress (they usually have only 2-3 lands in play)
- 2 probe

+ 2 surgical extraction
+ 1 grafdigger's cage
+ 2 flusterstorm

_____
elves
_____

- 3 price of progress

+ 1 electrickery
+ 1 grim lavamancer
+ 1 grafdigger's cage

______________
sneak and show
______________

- 1 probe
- 1 price of progress
- 2 chain lightning

+ 2 flusterstorm
+ 2 pyroblast

_____________
grixis delver
_____________
- 4 fow
- 2 probe

+ 2 pyroblast
+ 2 electrickery
+ 2 roast

___________
storm combo
___________
- 3 price of progress
- 1 ponder
- 2 probe

+ 2 pyroblast
+ 2 flusterstorm
+ 2 surgical extraction

[TheManWithaPlan]

I'm playing the Bazar Of Moxem legacy tournament in Paris this weekend. (all sold out, 450 participants)

I would like some input on my list and sideboard strategy.

It's a stock UR delver list with a slight variation for:
- 2 grim lavamancer main: I like this card over true-name nemesis and bedlam reveler, lavamancer gives extra removal against all the x/1 and x/2 creatures in the format and gives more reach.
- 3 price of progress main: this card is one of the main reasons to play this deck, that's why I play three main and none in the side. If it's good it stays in, if not i board them out.

List
_____________

Sideboarding
_____________

Looking at your list I feel like you do want a little more top end. I feel like you may want to move a Grim Lavamancer to the sideboard to put a True-Name Nemesis into the mainboard. I am not quite sure how I feel about 3 Price of Progress main, but I think it's fine. If you find the 3rd one to be not great, then I would replace it with a Fireblast.

As for the sideboard, I don't really like Roast when you could just pay :1: for Dismember. Also Submerge is pretty good in most of the same matchups that Roast is good in. I would definitely try a Bedlam Reveler out to be able to grind better. I could also suggest Rough/Tumble over Electrickery in the sideboard. It kills most of what Electrickery does but also kills stuff like Sanctum Prelate, Deathrite Shaman, etc. Another effect of this sort you could try is Sudden Demise.

For Death&Taxes, I feel you could take out more Dazes and Forces, and maybe another Probe to bring in 2 Roast and 2 Vortex. I could also see going down to 2 Price of Progress for the chance it could be blanked by a basic heavy draw from the opponent. The 2 Roasts are a great answer to Sanctum Prelate and Batterskull tokens. Vortex shuts off the life gain from Batterskull and Umezawa's Jitte.

Against Shardless BUG, I feel like boarding out 4 Force of Will on the play is fair, maybe keep one in. However on the Draw Daze loses a lot of strength so I would only want 2 and probably go back up on a Force or a Probe. I am not totally enamored with Pyroblast in this matchup because of the number of high impact spells they play that aren't blue. Personally I just leave them all in the sideboard, but I can see boarding in one.

To talk other BUG decks like Reid Duke's BUG deck, I feel like boarding in both Pyroblasts is appropriate here because they are playing much more blue than Shardless BUG. I would also keep in more Forces in this matchup because True-Name Nemesis backed up my multiple Noble Hierarchs is a thing.

For Infect, I don't love taking out all 4 Probes because information is very valuable in this matchup.

Looking at Sneak&Show, I would probably cut a 1-2 Price of Progress due to it being somewhat unreliable as they can just fetch basic lands to play around it.

Please do keep in mind that these are only suggestions and are based on my experience.

Anyway, best of luck in the event!

[grendl]

Looking at your list I feel like you do want a little more top end. I feel like you may want to move a Grim Lavamancer to the sideboard to put a True-Name Nemesis into the mainboard.

mainboard - 1 grim lavamancer + 1 true-name nemesis
sideboard - 1 electrickery + 1 grim lavamancer

i would like to find one more space in the sideboard for 1 extra true-name nemesis to board in against miracles and BUG decks


As for the sideboard, I don't really like Roast when you could just pay for Dismember. Also Submerge is pretty good in most of the same matchups that Roast is good in.

sideboard - 1 roast + 1 dismember

I'll make a split, the life loss due to dismember is quite heavy.
I allready tried submerge, I liked it, especially in response to a fetch, but found it too situational and it's not usuable in the eldrazi matchup.


I would definitely try a Bedlam Reveler out to be able to grind better.

I used to play two main, then one, then one in the sideboard. It's good in grindy matchups, but there true-name nemesis is just better.


I made some sideboarding tweaks based on your suggestions!
Thanks for the input!

[TheManWithaPlan]

So after dabbling with Fireblast on Friday night and some more today I have come to a conclusion for now. I do like Fireblast. I feel like even if it sits in your hand it can still be cast at almost any time. My problem with Reveler and Wrath is that they sat in your hand because you couldn't cast them, where as Fireblast sits in your hand because you don't want to cast it. So in conclusion, Fireblast has my seal of approval.

Quick report of FNM and today.

FNM
R1: Win 2-0 vs. Death&Taxes
R2: Win 2-0 vs. Miracles (he drew kind of poorly)
R3: Win 2-1 vs. Death&Taxes
R4: Win 2-0 vs. Burn

Today
R1: Loss 1-2 vs. Miracles (same miracles player from Friday)
R2: Loss 0-2 vs. Dark Thresh (didn't draw too well)
R3: Win 2-0 vs. Elves
R4: Win 2-1 vs. BUG Aluren
R5: Win 2-1 vs. Burn

Ended up in 9th (sadface) after losing to likely the best player in the room R1 and losing the pair up R2 which should've made my breakers better but my Miracles opponent lost rounds 3 and 4 but rebounded and won round 5 and squeaked in at 8th.

[CabalTherapy]

What do you guys think about the URg list with 2 Become Immense from that KMC tournament?
Looks interesting.

[TheManWithaPlan]

Working on updating the primer to add Sneak&Show and Grixis Delver to the matchups section as well as some version of BUG. What version of BUG would you guys like to see? Ried Duke BUG, or BUG Delver? Also adding Thunderous Wrath to the primer.

[Chatto]

What do you guys think about the URg list with 2 Become Immense from that KMC tournament?
Looks interesting.

Saw that, immediately looked at the manabase, and was not convinced. I like the stability, and simplicity of straight UR, so take my comment with a grain of salt :smile:

[Jonny Tempel]

Thoughts on the new spoiled 1-drop?



Soul-Scar Mage R
Prowess
If a source you control would deal noncombat damage to a creature an opponent controls, put that many -1/-1 counters on that creature instead.
1/2

[TheManWithaPlan]

Thoughts on the new spoiled 1-drop?
This just seems like a worse Monastery Swiftspear. Even though it makes your Lightning Bolt effects better against bigger creatures like Tarmogoyf and Thought-Knot Seer, I feel like the application is far to niche to warrant a slot.

[Tokugawa]

This just seems like a worse Monastery Swiftspear. Even though it makes your Lightning Bolt effects better against bigger creatures like Tarmogoyf and Thought-Knot Seer, I feel like the application is far to niche to warrant a slot.

Against decks with 0 or few creature(Miracles, Storm), it doesn't work. Against decks with creatures but not fatties(Dnt, Elves…), or decks with fatties that too fat(SnT, Reanimation…), also does't work.

These decks constitute what percentage of the meta…80%?

[jdc5011]

Hey guys. Just went 2-1 at LGS Thursday night legacy. Made a meta call to play 3 PoP main since it's full of greedy delver/wasteland decks.

R1: 4C control 2-1
G1: He mulled to 5 and couldn't answer a flipped driver. It's over when I float RR, sack both mountains for fireblast giving me 6 instant/sourceries I the GYM and slam Reveler.
+2 flusterstorm +2 pyroblast +1 dissmember
-1 reveler -4 daze
G2: I miss play kind of here. Op played goyfe (instant land creature sourcery in the bin). I did something and passed back. He plays strix. I pyroblast the strix on the stack. Then I BS into dissmember but goyfe is too big now cause of the artifact. Should've waited to dissmember the goyfe then blast the strix. Oh well.
-2 flusterstorm -3 FoW +3 daze +2 vortex
G3: double delver gets the job done real fast.

R2: elves 1-2
G1: got him to 3 with a delver in play. 3 FoW in hand. He plays NO. I force pitching force. He plays 2nd NO and gets me. I aggressively targeted his early creatures with bolt/chain lightning. Not sure if that's right or not. Would appreciate any insight into this matchup.
+1 cage +2 vortex +1 FoW +1 needle
-2 reveler -2 ponder -1 PoP
G2 turn 1 delver into turn 2 cage is pretty solid. Had him at 13. BS into land fireblast and something irrelevant. Managed to do 13 on the dot with delver PoP and fireblast.
G3: went to turns. Close game but he edged it out in the end.

R3: Noble Bant 2-0
G1: couple missplays. Forgot about the exalted trigger on the sprit dude who sacs to counter an instant/sorcery unless you pay equal to its power. In the end PoP was just too good here.
+2 pyroblast +1 needle +1 null rod +2 vortex +2 smash
-4 daze -1 reveler -3 swiftspear
G2: he plows my early threat but I had multiple delvers as backup. Probe revealing jitte so I promptly needle it on turn 2. He can't really draw any action. Double delver finishes it fast.
Think I probably leave the swiftspear in and dump FoW instead next time. I just felt underwhelmed with swiftspear in this matchup because multiplier active moms in a major clog up on the ground.

Overall I was very pleased with the way it played. I felt like most of the time I knew what the "correct" line of play was. Never really felt out of the game even when I was down and needed to find answers. I like reveler a lot. I'm not sold on 2 though. I had a hard time casting storm chaser. In fact I think he was in my hand multiple times and once got pitched to FoW the other time got discarded to reveler. I do want a pyroclasm in the 75. Especially since elves is a major contender at the shop. Is Rough//Tumble any better? I feel like you only ever cast the Rough side which is effectively exactly a pyroclasm reprint (plus I own a pyro and I don't own a Rough//Tumble).

Anyway, id appreciate any advice on SB techniques. I ran pretty much a stick lost with the following tweeks:
3 FoW main
3 PoP main (meta call to punish the BUG/Bant/4C decks infesting the LGS)
0 Thunderous Wrath

Sideboard looked like:
2 surgical
2 pyroblast
2 vortex
2 smash
2 flusterstorm
1 needle
1 dissmember
1 null rod
1 FoW
1 cage

Thinking about replacing Null Rod with pyroclasm.

[Hanni]

Rough//Tumble is better because it doesn't hit your own Delvers.

[jdc5011]

Rough//Tumble is better because it doesn't hit your own Delvers.

Doh. Feel dumb for missing that one. Yup. Makes sense.

[Jonny Tempel]

This just seems like a worse Monastery Swiftspear. Even though it makes your Lightning Bolt effects better against bigger creatures like Tarmogoyf and Thought-Knot Seer, I feel like the application is far to niche to warrant a slot.

I believe he will behave like a worse copy of Swiftspear most of the time but there may be certain scenarios where his second ability could be relevant. Call me dumb or simply overly optimistic but he actually makes combat worse for our opponents. You can simply attack into a Gurmag Angler, 4/5 Goyf etc and if your opponent blocks just respond with a bolt to kill their creature while the mage lives on (not possible with swiftspear alone). I you have 2 soul scar mages, a single bolt just outright kills a Tombstalker/Angler or makes the mighty Griselbrand into a 1/1 for the rest of the game.

Haven't there be numerous posts about stormchaser mages cmc2 beeing to expensive?
Yeah you cannot pitch the new guy to FoW and he lacks evasion and haste (critical points i know) but he seems very interesting in my opinion. Going soul-scar into swiftspear + Spell converts into at least 4 (often 7 with a bolt) damage whereas swiftspear into stormchaser mage gets in for "only" 3 damage on turn 2 without the option to cast a cantrip/bolt.


Greetings

[pateuglow]

Taking UR Delver to the Worcester Open tomorrow. Gonna get the #prowessgang all together.

[TheManWithaPlan]

Taking UR Delver to the Worcester Open tomorrow. Gonna get the #prowessgang all together.

Best of luck, get on camera!

[Chatto]

Taking UR Delver to the Worcester Open tomorrow. Gonna get the #prowessgang all together.

Best of luck! Fun fact: I've only been to the USA once, and stayed in Worcester. Too bad wasn't a SCG Open then.

[Oldsrocket_27]

Potentially a couple new cards for the deck:

Cryptic Serpent 5UU
creature - serpent
costs 1 less to cast for each instant and sorcery in your graveyard
5/6

Probably just worse than bedlam reveler, but technically could be playable.

Harsh Mentor 1R
Creature - Human Cleric
Whenever an opponent activates an ability of an artifact, creature, or land on the battlefield, if it isn't a mana ability, Harsh Mentor deals 2 damage to that player.
2/2

Potentially a Sideboard card. Doesn't trigger off planeswalkers, but fetchlands, deathrite, sensei's diving top, aether vial, wasteland, port, cavern harpy, griselbrand, and I'm sure much more that I'm forgetting all set it off.

[TheManWithaPlan]

Potentially a couple new cards for the deck:

Cryptic Serpent 5UU
creature - serpent
costs 1 less to cast for each instant and sorcery in your graveyard
5/6

Probably just worse than bedlam reveler, but technically could be playable.

Harsh Mentor 1R
Creature - Human Cleric
Whenever an opponent activates an ability of an artifact, creature, or land on the battlefield, if it isn't a mana ability, Harsh Mentor deals 2 damage to that player.
2/2

Potentially a Sideboard card. Doesn't trigger off planeswalkers, but fetchlands, deathrite, sensei's diving top, aether vial, wasteland, port, cavern harpy, griselbrand, and I'm sure much more that I'm forgetting all set it off.

Harsh Mentor, eh? Seems pretty neat eh? (my am I ever being Canadian) I would love to test this cards as a sideboard card. Let's go Wizards printing some very punishing hate. The main problem is it is a creature that easily gets hit by Swords to Plowshares, Abrupt Decay, Lightning Bolt, etc. and doesn't punish the opponent for removing it like Eidolon of the Great Revel does. Not that it is bad, however this is an obstacle for this card. We will see if it will make the cut.

I was looking at Cryptic Serpent earlier today and thinking the same thing. It is just missing something that makes it more than a fat creature on the board. The thing I would compare it to most is a Tombstalker that doesn't fly, which is what turns me off for this card. If we are paying :u::u: for this (ideally) we should be getting something that flies. At least Bedlam Reveler can refill your hand and it has prowess.

[Chatto]

Harsh Mentor seems near, and could potentially be a sb-slot. Eidolon seems more devastating, but I'm willing to try a couple.

EDIT: it also hits a Griselbrand-activation, which is nice.

[Rascalyote]

Harsh Mentor seems near, and could potentially be a sb-slot. Eidolon seems more devastating, but I'm willing to try a couple.

EDIT: it also hits a Griselbrand-activation, which is nice.

Does it really matter that it hits G-Brand though. Not much difference in them paying 7 or 9 life because they're not going to do either and just slaughter the burn deck with their 7/7 life linker.

[Chatto]

Does it really matter that it hits G-Brand though. Not much difference in them paying 7 or 9 life because they're not going to do either and just slaughter the burn deck with their 7/7 life linker.

No, it doesn't matter at all, but it could be relevant from time to time.

[Poron]

SB card? that makes every fetchland of the opponent a L.Bolt

huge against any DRShaman deck and autoinclude 4 of against Miracle.

Additionally if it sticks it is as good vs Aluren as Eidolon (Aluren needs creatures activated ability to win).

Being one sided, 1 would play it as a 1or 2 MD and the other to close the full set in SB.

Not less than 4 in any aggro red based deck imho.

Only Storm doesn't care about it

[Smuggo]

I think mentor could go mainboard.

Cards it hits that are common in legacy:
All fetches
Aether Vial
DRS
Top
Any equipment, particularly Jitte
Stoneforge Mystic
Griselbrand
Thespian's Stage

And these cards are just everywhere. Yeah it dies to removal, so does pretty much everything but this fits our low curve and is a great for controlling tempo of the game and ultimately advances our gameplan of burning down our opponent. I'd definitely try a couple mainboard, maybe in place of stormchaser mage. You may well board them out in some matchups, but that's fine, it hits so many common decks it is worth it imo.

[Poron]

it just doesn't get planeswalkers.. too bad

[ntropy]

Taking UR Delver to the Worcester Open tomorrow. Gonna get the #prowessgang all together.

How'd you do?
Did you play against Pox round 6?
if so, that was me, and they were good games!

[JDK]

Additionally if it sticks it is as good vs Aluren as Eidolon (Aluren needs creatures activated ability to win).

Not impressive against the drain 2 owl.

[Chatto]

Well, for one thing: it counters the 'gain 2 life'. With some early damage in (what isn't impossible because Aluren being 4cmc) you'll be winning that race: bounce and drain yourself again :-) So I disagree, Mentor is fine against Aluren.

[Smuggo]

it's ok vs Aluren but a bit slow maybe, I wouldn't board any in for that matchup.

[Chatto]

it's ok vs Aluren but a bit slow maybe, I wouldn't board any in for that matchup.

Aluren is inevability, albeit slow as well. Lately they have dropped counters for discard, so chances are you can drop one or two during the game. Still, you're probably right.

What about this card:

http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/enigmadrake.jpg

At first glance yes, but on second thought no? What do you guys think?

[Smuggo]

yeah the dragon is nice.

[Oldsrocket_27]

I'm not so sure about the dragon. Spellheart Chimera hasn't been good enough till now, though this survives bolt, which is something.

[JDK]

Well, for one thing: it counters the 'gain 2 life'. With some early damage in (what isn't impossible because Aluren being 4cmc) you'll be winning that race: bounce and drain yourself again :-) So I disagree, Mentor is fine against Aluren.

You do realize the difference between "fine" and "impressive", right? ;)

As for the Dragon: In which world would you not play TNN first?

[CptHaddock]

As for the Dragon: In which world would you not play TNN first?

A world where swords to plowshares is a banned card.

[Poron]

Not impressive against the drain 2 owl.

the drain 2 owl needs Cavern Harpy's ability that with this Mentor is a 3 life loss each time combo.

This Mentor just kill Aluren combo if it sticks (but it will not)

[Poron]

A world where swords to plowshares is a banned card.

Abrupt Decay is still a card

[JDK]

the drain 2 owl needs Cavern Harpy's ability that with this Mentor is a 3 life loss each time combo.

This Mentor just kill Aluren combo if it sticks (but it will not)
-1 +2 -2 = -1 (ignoring previous DRS and Owl Lifegain and any form of removal or flooding the board with Agent, Strix etc.)


A world where swords to plowshares is a banned card.

It was obviously a rhetorical question, as we are nowhere near a format without StP, Decay or Bolt...

[Chatto]

You do realize the difference between "fine" and "impressive", right? ;)

As for the Dragon: In which world would you not play TNN first?

As a matter of fact yes ;) Still Aluren is slow, we can do a lot of damage in the early stages of the game. But it's not the best way to fight this combo, and chances are Mentor won't stick anyway.

As for the dragon, like I said: at first glance yes, at second glance no. At this point it 'dies to removal', which is a dead give-away, but a valid reason nontheless. And yes, TNN is stricktly better.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So are you guys just not excited about Harsh Mentor, or just nobody's bein' a Chatty Cathy?...Cuz I'm pretty excited.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[Jonny Tempel]

The fact that Harsh Mentor triggers on each top activation makes it very interesting in the miracle MU.
There are of course many other situations where this card can sneak in some steady shocks if he survives a couple of turns.

[Poron]

-1 +2 -2 = -1 (ignoring previous DRS and Owl Lifegain and any form of removal or flooding the board with Agent, Strix etc.)

exactly: it kills Aluren owl combo as I said.

[jattra]

To me, Harsh Mentor looks like cheeper Sulfuric Vortex (in context of Miracles matchup).
Disadvantage is that the mentor can be easily removed and does not turn off Batterskull and other life gain.
The mana cost is much better though and he has 2 power to hit the opponent during each attack.

[Ralf]

I think Failure is a very nice tempo card that might help revive Patriot Delver.

But from my perspective, UR Delver should also look into a tiny white splash, just for the card.

Even if it is all speculations (and need testing), it seems failure could be useful for UR Delver:


Pros:

- Counter AD for a turn or two turns in the early game (protect your creature)
- Could potentially trigger prowness twice with 1 card even if unlikely (you would need to play both sides during your turn meaning having access to 3 mana...)
- Huge tempo boost (Oppo turn -> Failure, your turn -> Comply) against any CMC 2+ removal spell
- The same could be said for delaying oppo's creatures spell.


Cons

- CMC 2 for Failure. CMC 1 would have been OP...
- Not very good against CMC 1 removals but could be another constraint for your opponent's manabase (having early access to 2 white for STP for example)
- Force you to leave 2 mana opened (makes you "readable" but you can always bluff)
- Force you to have more lands in play to use it properly in many cases.

That card might be bad after testing but well, who knows ?

What do you think ?

[Poron]

he can Decay in response. Boros Charm is 100% better and more versatile than that.

Rejected. It can save in combat (double strike), it can save in response to destroying effects (all but Terminus and StP) it can get you there in every other case. At Instant speed

Failure/comply doesn't do anything like that.
The W splash would be for SFM and Boros Charm

[CabalTherapy]

The W splash would be for SFM and Boros Charm

Certainly not. :confused: Can't imagine a worse card than SFM in this deck.

[Ralf]

he can Decay in response. Boros Charm is 100% better and more versatile than that.

Rejected. It can save in combat (double strike), it can save in response to destroying effects (all but Terminus and StP) it can get you there in every other case. At Instant speed

Failure/comply doesn't do anything like that.
The W splash would be for SFM and Boros Charm

1) Decay in response of what ? Comply ? If I say early game, it means that if your opponent as already spent GB for decay he doesn't have any mana left during your turn, so that Comply actually works (even if not playing AD during his turn is not big of a deal as he will use it on your next turn). Comply is definitely more for sorcery speed type of cards.

2) Boros is bad against terminus and STP. Failure works against everything (Terminus and STP included).

[Poron]

Certainly not. :confused: Can't imagine a worse card than SFM in this deck.

joking right? Young Pyromancer + equipments is just crazy.
it simply becomes much more controllish

[Poron]

1) Decay in response of what ? Comply ? If I say early game, it means that if your opponent as already spent GB for decay he doesn't have any mana left during your turn, so that Comply actually works (even if not playing AD during his turn is not big of a deal as he will use it on your next turn). Comply is definitely more for sorcery speed type of cards.

2) Boros is bad against terminus and STP. Failure works against everything (Terminus and STP included).

So Comply is for...? To Timewalk his Show and Tell once?
Isn't Silence 100% better then?

I prefer Boros Charm over this

[Whitefaces]

What on earth is going on.

[TheManWithaPlan]

What on earth is going on.

LOL, my thoughts exactly.

But realistically, I don't think that Failure//Comply will see play. It is just far too inefficient. You could play Gitaxian Probe and Chis Pikula (Meddling Mage) if you really want that effect.

Also I would never put Stoneforge Mystic and Boros Charm in the same deck. If you were looking to play a more aggressive style Patriot Delver deck, I would dismiss Stoneforge Mystic entirely.

However, in my opinion, I just don't think Patriot Delver is good and I don't think warping the UR manabase is worth it for the white cards.

[CabalTherapy]

joking right? Young Pyromancer + equipments is just crazy.
it simply becomes much more controllish

Are you?
Things this deck does not want to do.

[Chatto]

Not to sound as a dick, but we're still straight UR. I really don't see the upside in splashing white, and kill a rocksolid manabase. Right now the only card I find interesting to debate is Harsh Mentor. Aside of 'dies to removal', I think it is a pretty briljant one-sided Shock-effect. Question is, do we want to test the card at all (be it as MD- or SB-option)?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Oh, I see. I wish I had said nothing. You aren't Chatty Cathys, you're Crazy Carlas.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[Chatto]

Oh, I see. I wish I had said nothing. You aren't Chatty Cathys, you're Crazy Carlas.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

No idea what you're trying to imply, but if you're calling me a crazy girl, please call me Carrie.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

No can do.

The implication was that I asked for conversation about the new Mentor and what came immediately after was a spastic reaction to other rather unplayable spoiled cards, not meaningful in any way to this thread or the conversation requested lol.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[theMonster]

I'd like to ask a specific question about Harsh Mentor. Since the Shock effect will disincentivize people from using fetches and Deathrite activations, do y'all think Mentor is better suited for Stifle/Wasteland shells that want to punish people's mana development? Having the opponent finally cave and play into Stifle while also taking 2 seems decent. Plus Stifle/Wasteland (instead of Price) helps Mentor survive more things and chip away for more damage because they wouldn't necessarily have the lands to cast their removal. Granted this would be a very different-looking list than the Prowess versions, but I wanted to get thoughts on the idea.

Thanks!

[TheManWithaPlan]

I'd like to ask a specific question about Harsh Mentor. Since the Shock effect will disincentivize people from using fetches and Deathrite activations, do y'all think Mentor is better suited for Stifle/Wasteland shells that want to punish people's mana development? Having the opponent finally cave and play into Stifle while also taking 2 seems decent. Plus Stifle/Wasteland (instead of Price) helps Mentor survive more things and chip away for more damage because they wouldn't necessarily have the lands to cast their removal. Granted this would be a very different-looking list than the Prowess versions, but I wanted to get thoughts on the idea.

Thanks!
I would feel that you would have to play an aggressive shell around that to make the Harsh Mentor playable. Doing that in UR wouldn't be to hard evidently. You can play 4 Delver, 4 Swiftspear/Goblin Guide, X Mentor, and maybe a curve topper or two like Bedlam Reveler or True-Name Nemesis. I am unsure as to how Goblin Guide would work out, it would be a little awkward with your mana denial plan. I could see you wanting to play out the game to strangle their manabase early and capitalize with Harsh Mentor, but one thing from playing Stifle Grixis is 2 drops that don't do anything right away and Stifle is a little awkward.

[Claymore]

They can play out their non-basics and get nuked by Price. Or they can fetch up basics and get shocked by Mentor. DRS can't stabilize. Mother can't stonewall. It's reach against Miracles. This is a completely MD card for the meta.

[Poron]

2x MD 2x SB

"everyone needs his fucking milion/playset" [A good year]

[Chatto]

No can do.

The implication was that I asked for conversation about the new Mentor and what came immediately after was a spastic reaction to other rather unplayable spoiled cards, not meaningful in any way to this thread or the conversation requested lol.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Aah ok :smile: I do think that the only real interesting card spoiler for UR Delver is Harsh Mentor. As stated by TMWaP it isn't very hard to imagine a aggresive UR Delver-shell. Would it require a lot tinkering? Not really. Swap Stormchaser Mage, and TWrath if you play the card (I personally don't like the card) for a third PoP main. Maybe pack some, I forgot the name, 1cmc Misdirection in the sb?

[theMonster]

I would feel that you would have to play an aggressive shell around that to make the Harsh Mentor playable. Doing that in UR wouldn't be to hard evidently. You can play 4 Delver, 4 Swiftspear/Goblin Guide, X Mentor, and maybe a curve topper or two like Bedlam Reveler or True-Name Nemesis. I am unsure as to how Goblin Guide would work out, it would be a little awkward with your mana denial plan. I could see you wanting to play out the game to strangle their manabase early and capitalize with Harsh Mentor, but one thing from playing Stifle Grixis is 2 drops that don't do anything right away and Stifle is a little awkward.

Hmm, Guide + Wasteland/Stifle is definitely a non-bo, and Swiftspear + Stifle seems awkward, too. I'd assume one would play more proactive cards with Swiftspear, playing spells both before and in combat. Stifle doesn't jibe with that plan. I guess the burn-centric list with Price is the way to go then ... unless there's some other one-drop threat you could play besides those two. (I can't think of a viable one; Lavamancer feels too slow.)

Thanks for the response.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm actually a pretty big fan of Nivmagus Elemental here. It gets bigger every time they counter something. If they are about to win a counter-war, just exile all yours before the stack resolves. Makes stifle less dead later in the game, as you can target any trigger (even yours), eat the Stifle and allow the trigger to resolve.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[Chatto]

Nivmagus Elemental is certainly a cool card, but I think we don't need another one-drop. Besides, you want to go as fast as you can, and Nivmagus Elemental isn't fast. It makes you want to exile cards from the stack (best case scenario after a counter-war), and most of the time you just want to have your Burn-cards to resolve.

PoP to three, SCM replaced by Harsh Mentor, and perhaps one or two Caverns of Souls (main or sb, but that is really stretching it) to make my humans uncounterable (thus keeping counters in hand for protection). That's what I'm thinking about.

[TheManWithaPlan]

I should clarify. By building an aggressive deck around Harsh Mentor, I meant that we would have to build an aggressive deck, however slow it down from the existing UR Delver deck. Stifle and Wasteland lend themselves to that sort of strategy. If we were to run a Stife+Wasteland build of this deck, we want to build our decks like Canadian Threshold. The concept would be to ideally play a 1 drop on turn 1 then proceed to strangle the opponent's manabase, and then capitalize with Harsh Mentor. We need 8 1 drops and Swiftspear is not one of them, due to its lackluster performance in a void. That said Nivmagus Elemental sounds interesting. Too bad it doesn't fly.

[BigBopper]

Problematically Canadian is not putting up great results at the moment, mostly due to Shaman, but also Leovold and TNN are problematic. Choosing UR allows a rock solid mana base and is able to punish opponents for being greedy (PoP). If you drop PoP and Prowess for Wasteland, Stifle and Harsh Mentor do you create a better deck than RUG or Grixis? Please don't get me wrong I like the idea, but I just don't see it. UR doesn't offer the best removal for a long game (lacking StP and Fatal Push) but has a "combo" like playstyle as you can go with the burn route completely orthorgonoal to what your opponent is doing.
Jonathan Alexander tried to attack opponents mana base to a great extend playing stifle, Wasteland and Winter Orb MD (https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2016/07/11/2016-canadian-threshold-primer/) and even he switched to a BUG shell now that you can play Shaman, Decay, Push and Leovold. I guess a UR control build would feature

4x Delver
2-3x Lavamancer
4x Harsh Mentor
0-2x Snapcaster
0-2x TNN

4x Daze
4x FoW
4x Stifle
0-1x Winter Orb

4x L.Bolt
2x Forked Bolt
0-2x Dismember

4x BS
4x Ponder

4x Wasteland
3-5x Basics
3-4x Volcanic
7-8x Fetches

There is nothing innovative to that list and I don't see it superior to the previous build, where you just go PoP, Firebalst, swing for 10-14 damage a turn.

[theMonster]

All valid points, BigBopper. So given the current UR Prowess shell, do you think Harsh Mentor has a place in its 75? Is it better than Stormchaser Mage? Doesn't die to Pyroblast, but it can't be pitched to Force; no evasion; hates on lots of the format (if it gets to survive). I see lots of situations where the opponent fetches to Decay it, so you dealt 2 and got a card out of their hand. Worth it? The upside is awesome, of course, but how often do they not just have untapped mana and Bolt/Swords/Push? Guess we just gotta test it and find out(?).

Considering there'd potentially be no Stormchaser, I'd imagine you could cut some number of Probes to play either more burn or more stack interaction like Spell Pierce.

[BigBopper]

I don't see Harsh Mentor as a contribution to the MD. It's main purpose seems to fight Miracles. In my board I already play 1 Pithing Needle and 1 Winter Orb to fight them and they both outclass Mentor as whey are harder to remove and easier to cast. I also play 3 Eidolon in the side to fight Storm and other decks like Elves and D&T. RR can be hard to cast but Harsh Mentor essentially doesn't do the same as Eidolon. Resolving Eidolon against any of these decks is either game over or they need to dig for answers where you contribute damage. Mentor doesn't do a thing. I guess Mentor would compete with Young Pyromancer the most for slots and what they do in terms of damage and we don't play YP.

I will certainly test him but I guess he might end up staying at home unless there is some sort of awesome combo I haven't seen yet.

[theMonster]

Eidolon against DnT, interesting. I'd think that with all the Aether Vial tricks, they wouldn't have to cast that many spells. Plus getting RR consistently against Wasteland and Port seems tough. I see Mentor as better than Eidolon against DnT because every Port, Wasteland, Karakas, Aether Vial, Mom, Stoneforge, and equipment activation pings for 2.

[BigBopper]

I agree. Basically FoW and to a major extend Daze are dead draws against D&T I try to board in more creature to fight their plan (especially if they play around Dazr and you boarded it out). Mentor is definetly better than Eidolon in this MU but I'm not sure that makes him worth including, unless it turn that MU around entirely. I gotta see.

[kamikaze360]

I am new to the deck and have only been playing online on Cockatrice for about a week. I am loving the current configuration of the deck and am on the 2 PoP, 1 Fireblast, 3 SCM, 1 TNN, 1 Lavamancer type build. I did have one question that perhaps you all could answer regarding the sideboard. I get all the 1 ofs and 2 ofs since lot of them are similar in their use, can be useful against multiple decks, and can be found with Brainstorm and Ponder. However, why do we run only 2 Smash to Smithereens? Chalice on 1 is devastating and Smash is a nice clean answer if I don't have Daze/FoW. Is it because if they don't have Chalice Smash can sit dead? Has anyone had experience or tested 3? I am inclined not to do so since no lists seem to, just curious on the thought behind the SB.

[TheManWithaPlan]

I am new to the deck and have only been playing online on Cockatrice for about a week. I am loving the current configuration of the deck and am on the 2 PoP, 1 Fireblast, 3 SCM, 1 TNN, 1 Lavamancer type build. I did have one question that perhaps you all could answer regarding the sideboard. I get all the 1 ofs and 2 ofs since lot of them are similar in their use, can be useful against multiple decks, and can be found with Brainstorm and Ponder. However, why do we run only 2 Smash to Smithereens? Chalice on 1 is devastating and Smash is a nice clean answer if I don't have Daze/FoW. Is it because if they don't have Chalice Smash can sit dead? Has anyone had experience or tested 3? I am inclined not to do so since no lists seem to, just curious on the thought behind the SB.
We only ever run 2 Smash to Smithereens in our deck because we have 12 cantrips to find them. Smash to Smithereens is also a very narrow card and drawing them when you don't need them can be a bit of a liability. Another reason why only 2 Smash is sideboard space. Legacy is a very diverse format and you should have ways to deal with an array of different decks, thus that sideboard space is quite valuable.

[wizard_of_gore]

guys, what are you think about engima drake in u/r shell ? I mean, he dodges lightning bolt, and he can hit so hard it't not even funny :/

[kamikaze360]

We only ever run 2 Smash to Smithereens in our deck because we have 12 cantrips to find them. Smash to Smithereens is also a very narrow card and drawing them when you don't need them can be a bit of a liability. Another reason why only 2 Smash is sideboard space. Legacy is a very diverse format and you should have ways to deal with an array of different decks, thus that sideboard space is quite valuable.


Thanks, that makes tons of sense!!!

I have another question... and I'm sure its a common one. What do people do against Miracles? I have read the whole forum discussion and it seems its a tough matchup but some people have had success just bum rushing the Miracles player. What is the general consensus and sideboard plan? I have tested against a handful of times and it seems........ not good.

[BigBopper]

@wizard_of_gore: enigma drake is not a good card. If you care for a creature to stick and dodge removal play TNN. If you want to deal more damage play an additional PoP.

@kamikaze360: versible SB cards are Pithing Needle (vs. Miracles naming top), Winter Orb, Sulfuric Vortex and now Harsh Mentor. I guess Pyroblast and REB do come in mind but they are just defenses against Counterbalance and Jace, while not doing anything. Bedlam Reveler is quite good if you play one, as they cannot counter it with counterbalance, only counterspell if available and terminus gives us another chance to replay it and draw 3 cards.

@all: What is the thought on playing Barbarian Ring? I know Burn does it and to be honest I picked the idea up in the Canadian threat. We easily get threshold, it's 2 almost uncounterable damage (also on DRS) and we seriously don't count our life total (playing 4 probes). I'll give it a try for the 9th fetch.

[Chatto]

Working on updating the primer to add Sneak&Show and Grixis Delver to the matchups section as well as some version of BUG. What version of BUG would you guys like to see? Ried Duke BUG, or BUG Delver? Also adding Thunderous Wrath to the primer.

I've added some changes to the primer, courtesy to TMWAP :smile:

[paradigm72]

I like the matchup descriptions in the primer! Nice work guys :).

Speaking of UR's matchups, what is everyone's opinion on the Sneak and Show matchup? There's a discussion erupting in the Show and Tell FB group - it seems like in MA pateuglow and Jerry think it's heavily in favor of UR Delver, whereas in Madison John and I think it's 80/20 in favor of Sneak. We can't both be right :).

Here's how I board for Sneak and Show:

In:
+1 Flusterstorm
+2 Pyroblast
+1 Sulfuric Vortex (on the play)

Out:
-1 Grim Lavamancer
-2 Price of Progress
-1 Forked Bolt (on the play)

My experience is that I can usually count on finding one Force of Will, but it's not enough to get the job done. My opponent is always able to either Force back on-curve, or wait an extra turn and Pierce/Flusterstorm. The few times I win this matchup, it's when I'm on the play and can put together a turn-4 kill. Is the issue that I'm not reaching deep enough in the board to cards like Pithing Needle (which I don't run)? Is running Thunderous Wrath and pushing hard for a turn-3 kill the way to go?

This matchup is still a big puzzle to me - I'm at 2-6 lifetime record against Show and Tell, one of the few matchups that's negative for me in the past half year or so.

[Jonny Tempel]

I like the matchup descriptions in the primer! Nice work guys :).

Speaking of UR's matchups, what is everyone's opinion on the Sneak and Show matchup? There's a discussion erupting in the Show and Tell FB group - it seems like in MA pateuglow and Jerry think it's heavily in favor of UR Delver, whereas in Madison John and I think it's 80/20 in favor of Sneak. We can't both be right :).

Here's how I board for Sneak and Show:

In:
+1 Flusterstorm
+2 Pyroblast
+1 Sulfuric Vortex (on the play)

Out:
-1 Grim Lavamancer
-2 Price of Progress
-1 Forked Bolt (on the play)

My experience is that I can usually count on finding one Force of Will, but it's not enough to get the job done. My opponent is always able to either Force back on-curve, or wait an extra turn and Pierce/Flusterstorm. The few times I win this matchup, it's when I'm on the play and can put together a turn-4 kill. Is the issue that I'm not reaching deep enough in the board to cards like Pithing Needle (which I don't run)? Is running Thunderous Wrath and pushing hard for a turn-3 kill the way to go?

This matchup is still a big puzzle to me - I'm at 2-6 lifetime record against Show and Tell, one of the few matchups that's negative for me in the past half year or so.

Would be a bit easier if you could post your sideboard.
I always bring in Force #4, Flusterstorm, Spell Pierce and 2 Pyroblast. If i'm not running a Clique main, i would bring in that card too.

[Smuggo]

I like the matchup descriptions in the primer! Nice work guys :).

Speaking of UR's matchups, what is everyone's opinion on the Sneak and Show matchup? There's a discussion erupting in the Show and Tell FB group - it seems like in MA pateuglow and Jerry think it's heavily in favor of UR Delver, whereas in Madison John and I think it's 80/20 in favor of Sneak. We can't both be right :).

Here's how I board for Sneak and Show:

In:
+1 Flusterstorm
+2 Pyroblast
+1 Sulfuric Vortex (on the play)

Out:
-1 Grim Lavamancer
-2 Price of Progress
-1 Forked Bolt (on the play)

My experience is that I can usually count on finding one Force of Will, but it's not enough to get the job done. My opponent is always able to either Force back on-curve, or wait an extra turn and Pierce/Flusterstorm. The few times I win this matchup, it's when I'm on the play and can put together a turn-4 kill. Is the issue that I'm not reaching deep enough in the board to cards like Pithing Needle (which I don't run)? Is running Thunderous Wrath and pushing hard for a turn-3 kill the way to go?

This matchup is still a big puzzle to me - I'm at 2-6 lifetime record against Show and Tell, one of the few matchups that's negative for me in the past half year or so.

My experience is that vs SnS we are slightly unfavoured G1 but fairly well favoured post-board.

For me, I board in the 4th FoW, flusterstorm and pyroblast, pithing needles (I run 2) and 2 sulfuric vortex and board out bedlam reveller, PoP, stormchasers and usually a chain lightning. You've usually got a bit more time vs this matchup compared to say BR Reanimator so the key is have a counterspell ready and just get some efficient beats on the board early. Git Probes are invaluable to get you hand intelligence so you know what to name with pithing needle and what to save your countermagic for. Most importantly, remember that you can block Grisel with a flipped delver and then bolt it before damage to prevent the life gain. If they ever gain life from him you've basically lost your chance to win so you need to make sure you have the cards in hand to deal with a resolved Grisel on the board.

[Ozymandias1989]

Hello first post here, thanks for the primer!

I decided to switch to Legacy after Gitaxian Probe was banned in modern and I couldn't play UR Delver there anymore.

I will be attending my first large Legacy tournament at the end if the month and could use some advice on my deck :

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Mountain
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Stormchaser Mage
1 Bedlam Reveler
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Price of Progress
4 Ponder
4 Chain Lightning
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Fireblast

Sideboard :
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Null Rod
1 Dismember
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Rough // Tumble
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Grim Lavamancer

I've really not been a fan of Bedlam Reveler in testing compared to True-Name Nemesis but I don't want to kill my own creatures with Rough//Tumble. Should I cut the Grim Lavamancer and add either another price of progress or Pyroblast / Flusterstorm? Do I really need Sulfur Elemental with Rough in the board, it seems good against thalia but that's about it? I really want to keep Jitte as it is my favourite card.

Also any advice when playing the deck IRL?

Much obliged

[TheManWithaPlan]

Hello first post here, thanks for the primer!

I decided to switch to Legacy after Gitaxian Probe was banned in modern and I couldn't play UR Delver there anymore.

I will be attending my first large Legacy tournament at the end if the month and could use some advice on my deck :

List

I've really not been a fan of Bedlam Reveler in testing compared to True-Name Nemesis but I don't want to kill my own creatures with Rough//Tumble. Should I cut the Grim Lavamancer and add either another price of progress or Pyroblast / Flusterstorm? Do I really need Sulfur Elemental with Rough in the board, it seems good against thalia but that's about it? I really want to keep Jitte as it is my favourite card.

Also any advice when playing the deck IRL?

Much obliged

Welcome the the forum and to Legacy!

As for your list, it looks pretty solid. I am not generally a fan of Jitte in Delver decks in general due to it being very mana heavy and you not having an abundance of creatures to equip it to. If your local meta is stuffed with Sulfur Elemental and Monastery Mentor, then I would like Sulfur Elemental, otherwise it doesn't do anything and Clique would probably be a better option. I recommend keeping Grim Lavamancer, due to it just being able to win games all on its own. If you prefer to play True-Name Nemesis over Bedlam Reveler, I would opt to play Sudden Demise over Rough/Tumble.

Best of luck in the event!

[paradigm72]

I second TMWAP's suggestion of Grim Lavamancer and True-Name Nemesis being strong inclusions. To me, they're worth dropping Rough // Tumble which would otherwise be great. In its place, I love playing a 1x Pyrokinesis in the board as my sweeper - that card has bailed me out of so many situations. Being free is excellent in tempo matchups like Delver and D+T, where you don't have extra mana to spend, and you are often boarding Force of Will out anyway so giving up a card is acceptable. It's pretty common for it to be an even 2-for-2 trade, but a huge tempo gain because you spent zero mana and they spent at least two.

I think I've finally turned a corner on understanding the Delver mirror over the past few months. Previously I struggled a lot with it, but lately I'm hitting 65% win rate against a mix of Grixis and BUG, mostly by being more patient and trying to one-for-one them while chipping in damage. I'm starting to play this matchup the opposite of the way I play Miracles (where I blitz all out), and instead try to trade resources carefully and not go down cards or get caught by Daze. It seems like our basic lands and extra removal allow us to stay in the game for a surprisingly long time. Goyf/Angler are obviously the big risk to that plan, but even when they land we have 8+ threats that can go over them and race. Price of Progress is usually good for 4 damage even against Wasteland/Daze tricks, and that can be enough to finish them off.

[Smuggo]

I've really not been a fan of Bedlam Reveler in testing compared to True-Name Nemesis but I don't want to kill my own creatures with Rough//Tumble. Should I cut the Grim Lavamancer and add either another price of progress or Pyroblast / Flusterstorm? Do I really need Sulfur Elemental with Rough in the board, it seems good against thalia but that's about it? I really want to keep Jitte as it is my favourite card.

Also any advice when playing the deck IRL?

Much obliged

I would drop Jitte, it is far too slow and hard to use in our deck effectively. A second sulfuric vortex is a must imo. On the play especially, it is really strong against a wide range of decks and often just pushes our damage over the edge to win the game and it puts a clock on grindy control decks.

Depends on your meta but I have dropped Grafdiggers because it's just too narrow and graveyard decks aren't all that common atm except for B/R and you have better tools against that deck anyway. Winter orb, null rod and pithing are all great options that hit miracles and a number of other decks.

As for playing, my main advice would be just don't waste your brainstorms and remember FoW is really bad in this deck (but essential for combo) and should be got rid of as soon as you know you don't absolutely need it.

[Smuggo]

I second TMWAP's suggestion of Grim Lavamancer and True-Name Nemesis being strong inclusions. To me, they're worth dropping Rough // Tumble which would otherwise be great. In its place, I love playing a 1x Pyrokinesis in the board as my sweeper - that card has bailed me out of so many situations. Being free is excellent in tempo matchups like Delver and D+T, where you don't have extra mana to spend, and you are often boarding Force of Will out anyway so giving up a card is acceptable. It's pretty common for it to be an even 2-for-2 trade, but a huge tempo gain because you spent zero mana and they spent at least two.

I think I've finally turned a corner on understanding the Delver mirror over the past few months. Previously I struggled a lot with it, but lately I'm hitting 65% win rate against a mix of Grixis and BUG, mostly by being more patient and trying to one-for-one them while chipping in damage. I'm starting to play this matchup the opposite of the way I play Miracles (where I blitz all out), and instead try to trade resources carefully and not go down cards or get caught by Daze. It seems like our basic lands and extra removal allow us to stay in the game for a surprisingly long time. Goyf/Angler are obviously the big risk to that plan, but even when they land we have 8+ threats that can go over them and race. Price of Progress is usually good for 4 damage even against Wasteland/Daze tricks, and that can be enough to finish them off.

Yeah I have been thinking of pyrokinesis as an option. I have sulfur elemental atm but I seem to never actually end up playing vs D&T. Pyrokinesis has more versatility which is good.

As for delver mirror, I have always felt favoured for those games, we are just faster usually and other delvers can't keep up with the damage we lay down. Main thing is just to mulligan right. Having too many lands in these matchups is really bad as we need to just be throwing damage down constantly to race them.

[kamikaze360]

So, I am having tooons of trouble with all this BUG midrange nonsense. They have basics to fetch to play around PoP (our supposed trump card) and removal for days with Fatal Push, Decay, Dismember, Strix, Snapcaster, etc. Not to mention Tarmogoyf coming down to clean up the mess. Anyone else having similar experiences? What to do?

[Hanni]

So, I am having tooons of trouble with all this BUG midrange nonsense. They have basics to fetch to play around PoP (our supposed trump card) and removal for days with Fatal Push, Decay, Dismember, Strix, Snapcaster, etc. Not to mention Tarmogoyf coming down to clean up the mess. Anyone else having similar experiences? What to do?

More aggression, more burn, less blue cards. The list in my sig for R/u Sligh crushes all of this BUG midrange nonsense... maybe take some ideas from that. Guide, Rift Bolt, Forked Bolt, etc.

[CabalTherapy]

So, I am having tooons of trouble with all this BUG midrange nonsense. They have basics to fetch to play around PoP (our supposed trump card) and removal for days with Fatal Push, Decay, Dismember, Strix, Snapcaster, etc. Not to mention Tarmogoyf coming down to clean up the mess. Anyone else having similar experiences? What to do?

I can second Hanni.
Goblin Guide makes them sweat and Forked Bolt is a great addition to the main.

Now that the meta has shifted to more midrage decks, UR should play out its advantages even more. I cannot see a reason not running 12 cc1 drops in this deck. You don't want to Ponder on T1 or make fetch>go-moves. This deck
needs to pressure the opponent as early as t1 and that makes it the best Delverdeck/aggro for me nowadays.

[Stuuch]

Hi guys, just went 5-0 with this pile on modo. Nothing new to say except I wont be dropping Fows to just three copies main deck any time soon. I know it´s bad in this deck but still it gives us % against the field when glass cannon decks go all in in game 1. It´s also nice to have back up for your Price when you know your going to win. Here is the deck I played:

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Arid Mesa
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island
4 Delver
4 Swiftspear
3 Stormchaser
1 Clique
1 Reveler
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Probe
4 Fow
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Price of Progress
1 Fireblast

Sideboard:

2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Surgical Extracrtion
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Spell Pierce
1 Submerge
1 Flusterstorm
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Pyroblast
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Pyrokinesis

Matc ups were:

2-1 vs Belcher
2-0 vs 4c control
2-0 vs Elves
2-1 vs Br reanimator
2-0 vs 12 post

Keep up the good work here!

[BigBopper]

@Stuuch: nice job! I dunno how the magic online meta is but I never like to see FoW in preboard games against unknown opponents. But I guess we don't have to argue about 1 card being shifted between MD and SB.
Tryed out Thunderous Wrath and although it's a nice effect I'm not sold on the card at all. I remember when it first came out and people were hyped about it Andrew Schneider, who had a lot success with this deck at the time wrote this article: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/25091-A-Guide-To-UR-Delver-In-Legacy.html. I think his statement concerning the card is still valid. That being said I wonder if Snapcaster is worth including again. You mainly wanna flashback Bolt or PoP but also a Flusterstorm, Smash to Smithereens or Pyroblast postboard don't seem bad. I've seen lists that trade him for revealer, although he's much worse against Miracles. Thoughts?

[Smuggo]

Been experimenting a bit with Harsh Mentor on cockatrice and so far it seems good. I am running two main in place of two goblin guides with a third in the side (so my creature lineup is 4 delver, 4 swiftspear, 2 stormchaser, 2 mentor and 1 bedlam). It definitely is a top target for removal but when they don't have that removal or they direct it straight at your t1 swiftspear/delver, then he really does some work. Even when he's only hitting fetches it racks up the damage rather fast as for many decks that means taking 3 damage just to get 1 mana source. He seems to be getting viewed by opponents as being something they have to deal with asap, which often sees them play FoW or other annoying countermagic which honestly I am fine with as it means they get card disadvantage from force and don't have that counter ready for something more dangerous like price. So, seems good so far but will need to play him more to really see how much difference he can make as yet to try vs D&T, metalworker, dark depths and other decks that will be heavily taxed by him.

[Ozymandias1989]

I would drop Jitte, it is far too slow and hard to use in our deck effectively. A second sulfuric vortex is a must imo. On the play especially, it is really strong against a wide range of decks and often just pushes our damage over the edge to win the game and it puts a clock on grindy control decks.

Depends on your meta but I have dropped Grafdiggers because it's just too narrow and graveyard decks aren't all that common atm except for B/R and you have better tools against that deck anyway.

Thanks everyone for your feedback!

I'll drop Jitte-chan in favour of Grim Lavamancer, he usually kills something when drawn whereas Jitte has a herd time getting equipped. Pyrokinesis is a nice alternative to Rough//Tumble and it can deal 4 close out the game, was thinking about Thunderous Wrath but this seems better.

3 Surgical Extraction is what I started with so I'm fine going back to that.

1 True-Name Nemesis or 2?

Winter orb didn't seem to do all that much in testing but it is clearly a strong card, as is Pithing Needle, but the question is what do I cut for them?

Thanks again!

Mainboard :
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Stormchaser Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
3 Price of Progress
4 Ponder
4 Chain Lightning
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Fireblast

Sideboard :
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Null Rod
1 Dismember
2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Pyrokinesis
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Grim Lavamancer

[Smuggo]

I would say cut a dismember for a pithing needle and otherwise your side seems good. The life cost of using dismember is too high imo. Obviously it is always dependent on your local meta though so just play in local tournaments and read about them as much as you can and adjust the side accordingly. I think 3x surgical is a bit much personally and you could go for a second needle or something else in its place.

[Jonny Tempel]

@Ozimandias1989:
Please keep in mind Pyrokinesis can only hit creatures and not players.

@Smuggo:
Against which decks have you tested Mentor?

[Smuggo]

@Ozimandias1989:
Please keep in mind Pyrokinesis can only hit creatures and not players.

@Smuggo:
Against which decks have you tested Mentor?

Vs BUG delver, 4c delver, miracles, merfolk and loam where I've actually seen one and cast it. Won them all except the miracles match. Have been a load of others where it was in the deck but I just never saw it.

[Ozymandias1989]

@Ozimandias1989:
Please keep in mind Pyrokinesis can only hit creatures and not players

Oh! Okay then.

@Smuggo
Can Dismember really be cut? I thought it was a must have against Tarmogoyf?

If I had to choose between Pithing Needle and Winter Orb what would you recommend?

[Rocco111]

I have also built up a test list running Harsh Mentor and Soul-Scar Mage.
Even though I would need more games under my belt with these guys, I would totally see a case for each :
Soul-Scar needs us to switch some cards (Chain <> Forked Bolt or maybe even running Electrickery MD again -like back in the days of YPyro/DTT) but gave some unexpected situations which made me think twice about it (i.e. SSMage on the field, opponent transforms DarkDepth > MaritLage, I Bolt Marit to make sure it is not lethal >>> I was able to stale the game for a while, giving me more chance to find an answer to win the game).

Harsh Mentor also hits the opponent using Maze of Ith, Wasteland, A.Vial, when Equipping, Griselbrand, RishPort... I mean there is a lot of cases in which the card can justify its spot.
But again, I think to make full use of it, the list may need to be more "control" than "burn" imho.

[Smuggo]

Oh! Okay then.

@Smuggo
Can Dismember really be cut? I thought it was a must have against Tarmogoyf?

If I had to choose between Pithing Needle and Winter Orb what would you recommend?

Again, highly meta-dependent but I have found that since fatal push came about I am seeing less Goyfs on the table than before and, in any event, you should probably just ignore goyf and go over it.

At the moment I run 2 needle and a winter orb and no null rod. Null rod is excellent of course but needle has wider application against more decks. Winter orb is narrower and primarily intended to disrupt miracles but can also be used against other mana-hungry decks.

[Smuggo]

So SDT has been banned... maybe won't need those mentors after all. What do people think it'll mean for us? As a 28 1-drop deck I feel it's great but I guess will depend if other decks now become viable in the meta that are stronger.

[paradigm72]

So SDT has been banned... maybe won't need those mentors after all. What do people think it'll mean for us? As a 28 1-drop deck I feel it's great but I guess will depend if other decks now become viable in the meta that are stronger.

I think you hit the nail on the head exactly - most of the impact will come from the other ways the meta changes, and not so much from Miracles itself. To me the immediate question is whether we can deal adjust to deal with the rise of combo decks like Storm and UB Reanimator that were partly held in check by Miracles. Generally I think we are ok against their current iterations, but they might be able to streamline their lists now and get ahead of us.

[Smuggo]

I think you hit the nail on the head exactly - most of the impact will come from the other ways the meta changes, and not so much from Miracles itself. To me the immediate question is whether we can deal adjust to deal with the rise of combo decks like Storm and UB Reanimator that were partly held in check by Miracles. Generally I think we are ok against their current iterations, but they might be able to streamline their lists now and get ahead of us.

Yes we'll have to see how thing goes, but probably gonna be making some significant sideboard changes in response and possibly even need to slow down by mainboarding more countermagic if combo stuff comes out strongly off the back of this.

[Shadowwarrior346]

Exquisite Firecraft is definitely leaving my sideboard now, Sulfuric Vortex might follow. :)

[Smuggo]

Exquisite Firecraft is definitely leaving my sideboard now, Sulfuric Vortex might follow. :)

Exquisite yeah, but Vortex is good in a lot of matchups, like almost any deck slower than us on the play, any control decks really or anything with some lifegain potential that can put them out of range.

[Jonny Tempel]

Can't believe i will never have to play against that shitty SDT again... Yeah!
Guess decks like Storm and Elves will be on the rise so back to 4x Force of Will main?


Vs BUG delver, 4c delver, miracles, merfolk and loam where I've actually seen one and cast it. Won them all except the miracles match. Have been a load of others where it was in the deck but I just never saw it.
So with Miracles basically "gone" how would you describe the impact Mentor had on your games?
I can see him beeing good against D&T, Loam and those Grixis/BUG/4c Stuff where he shus down DRS.

[Smuggo]

Can't believe i will never have to play against that shitty SDT again... Yeah!
Guess decks like Storm and Elves will be on the rise so back to 4x Force of Will main?


So with Miracles basically "gone" how would you describe the impact Mentor had on your games?
I can see him beeing good against D&T, Loam and those Grixis/BUG/4c Stuff where he shus down DRS.

I agree 4 force in main might be back on the menu now just not sure what to cut for it from my list might swap it with my third Pop.

The top ban might make harsh mentor worse, though miracles could usually easily remove it so hard to say if it impacts the card's usefulness. I'll keep trying it for a bit but might go back to running a couple of goblin guides instead. Will have to see how the meta develops now the most oppressive deck has gone.

Still I think the top ban bodes fairly well for a fast aggressive deck like this. I've found I generally fare well vs the BUG decks people seem to think will come to the fore in the post miracles world.

[Rocco111]

With SDT banned, we are free of that silly CBTop lock which made this MU particularly miserable for us.

Therefore, UR Delver is probably in line to get back to its DtB position: we have a strong mana base and can hit opponents pretty bad with PoP, we can have a strong denial plan (with both soft and hard counters + a possible way playing Stifle-Wasteland as well) and we can hit fast (with blasts and cheap hitters).

I do not think that Storm nor Elfball nor SnT decks are particularly going to be bad MUs.
I'd be more "worried" about the return of Maverick eventually or the increasing copies of Chalices here n there.

[kamikaze360]

So, is anyone changing the deck much in light of no more Miracles? I am new to the deck and am personally thrilled about the Top ban as I was having troubles with the Miracles deck.


Is Pyroblast still a 2-of in the board? Still plenty of targets but less of an urgency to have multiple answers to Counterbalance?

Is Sufuric Vortex still great as a 2-of?

Do we want to up the number of counterspells in the SB or is 2 Flusterstorm + 2 Pyroblasts about right?

What about Vendilion Clique? It seems real bad against other fair decks but probably pretty damn good against the combo decks, Elves, and even D & T.

[Smuggo]

I am currently running 1 pyroblast, 1 fluster, will prob go to 2 fluster now though and keep 1 pyro.

I think pyrokinesis is worth having if elves does become a big thing, and rough//tumble is also good for that.

I'm keeping 2 sulfuric for now, I think the life-gain prevention is also really crucial for many common matchups using jitte, DRS and batterskull. And it's just good for any other durdly control decks to put a clock on them and even other delver decks if you're on the play due to our speed and damage.

I've dropped winter orb though. While still good against some other decks it's just probably not good enough without miracles around.

It's really gonna depend on the meta though and will probably be quite a while before it becomes clear what the new DTBs are.