[Deck] Zilla Stompy 2k6 - RG Beats for the Modern Meta [Archive]

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Zilla

02-17-2006, 07:15 PM

INTRO:

I've been working on an update to Zilla Stompy for several weeks now. With Landstill out of the picture, and combo making up a small percentage of the metagame, the deck's greatest problems are currently of little concern. The printing of Guildpact also provided some new goodies, and testing showed that they work quite well indeed.

The main changes to the original Zilla Stompy (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2586) include a lower focus on the 1 casting cost slot, an increase in mana production and stability, and a curve ending at 4 instead of the original 3. These changes allow for greater resilience to Chalice of the Void, to mana disruption from Wasteland and Port, and provide for much bigger threats, meaning a solid game against decks like Goblins, Thresh and Deadguy, and better lategame reach against control. Furthermore, it allows for the inclusion of Jitte, which when combined with Troll Ascetic, is an overwhelming threat which many decks simply cannot handle.

In any case, I'll get right to the decklist, with thorough explanation of card choices, sideboard options, and matchup analyses to follow:

//NAME: Zilla Stompy 2k6

// Mana
7 Forest
5 Mountain
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

// Creatures
4 Kird Ape
4 Burning-Tree Shaman
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Iwamori of the Open Fist*

// Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Rancor
4 Umezawa's Jitte

*Can be Rumbling Slum in some metagames.

CARD CHOICES:

7 Forests / 5 Mountains:
Pretty self-explanatory. One of your strengths against decks like Goblins and Stax is your highly resilient manabase. With 12 basics, you can effectively dodge Wasteland all day long, and you'll still produce the colors you need very consistently. There's a relatively even split here despite the heavier green count in the deck because you have Elves and ESG's to provide you with the extra green when you need it.

4 Taiga:
Pretty obvious stuff. You could almost get away with running no non-basics at all, except you really want Taiga available to you for a first turn 2/3 Kird Ape.

4 Fetches:
You're only running 4 Fetches because that's all you need for consistency, and because they generally have pretty poor synergy with Burning-Tree Shaman. With only 4 Fetches, you're likely to have used all of them in your opening draw before you cast BTS, so it's all good.

4 Llanowar Elves:
Mana critters to smooth out your curve, and power out early Slums and Jittes. Can be equipped with Rancor or Jitte in a pinch. Incidentally, that's why this deck runs Elves over Birds of Paradise; an Elf equipped with Jitte will get counters, where Birds won't. You don't really need the color-fixing from Birds at all.

4 Elvish Spirit Guide:
Good in so many ways. Like Elves, they power out early beats n' Jittes. They also help you play entertaining mind games with Thresh players. There's nothing quite so satisfying as paying for Daze with a pitched ESG. Now that's tempo. ESG also helps you work around Stax's lock pieces, by giving you free mana that doesn't require tappage. In the late game, they become a 2/2 beater that you can attach a Rancor or a Jitte to, making it into a real threat.

4 Kird Ape:
Best 1cc beatstick in the game? Sure, I'll take 4.

4 Burning-Tree Shaman:
Because of the mana accellerants you're running, you can afford to skip the 2cc slot and go right to 3. Even without his special abilty, the BTS is a solid beatstick in his own right. With 4 toughness, he dodges Bolts, and survives combat with Goblins, Mongooseses, and most threats in 3-Color Aggro. His special ability is tasty, too. It helps put real pressure on decks like Flame-Vault, Rifter, Wombat, Tog, and CAL. An all-around solid inclusion.

4 Troll Ascetic:
Just like the original Zilla Stompy, Troll is your MVP. If you thought he was awesome with Rancor, just wait till you slap a Jitte on his ass and go to town. This combo alone gives you insane advantage over many of the other aggro decks in the field.

4 Iwamori of the Open Fist / Rumbling Slum:
I know what some of you are thinking: "Rumbling Slum? Really? There must be something better." There isn't, really. Laugh all you want. This guy is very very good. I'm not kidding. Try him. 5/5 beaters for 4 mana are extremely hard to come by, particularly when they're dealing an extra damage per turn on top of that.

At first glance, Blastoderm might seem like a better choice, but it isn't. First, Blastoderm won't win you any wars of attrition; Fading's a bitch. More important by far, though, is that you can't slap Rancor or Jitte on a Blastoderm. Slum is absolutely perfect in this regard. He'll trade with most creatures in the format even unequipped, he's well out of Bolt or even Bolt + Fanatic range, and his supposed drawback is actually an advantage to you in every matchup but Burn. This guy is awesome.

That said, Slum can be a real liability in the Burn matchup, as that extra point of damage helps your opponent more than it hurts them. Slum is also far worse against Silver Knight. If you expect these in your metagame, then Iwamori is a suitable replacement. His drawback is negligible against the vast majority of decks in this format, he's not red, and the fact that he's Legendary isn't that relevant, because you tend to slow-play your biggest threats against most decks anyway. The trample is also a real boon. I'm torn between Slum and Iwamori. Slum is better against combo and control because of the extra damage per turn, but Iwamori is better against your bad non-combo matchups. In the end, this slot should be dictated by your metagame. A 2/2 split between the two is an option as well.

4 Rancor:
A signature card of the original Zilla Stompy. Nothing's changed. Thorough testing has shown it hasn't gotten any less awesome.

4 Umezawa's Jitte:
4 of them? Seriously? Yes, 4 of them. Seriously. These things just win games. The fact that you can't play multiples is irrellevant. You want to see them often and early. They flat-out steal games against other aggro. Jitte is one of the major reasons why Goblins is such a strong matchup for you. Same goes for Zoo. It's also your saving grace in the Burn matchup thanks to lifegain. I recommend them over Sword of Fire and Ice for a few reasons: First, the extra cost on SoFI is relevant. Your curve is pretty solid at 4, but it gets a little shaky after that. You want to cast and equip a creature on the same turn, preferably by turn 4. Further, the virtual card advantage against other aggro decks in terms of sheer removal outweighs the actual card advantage provided by SoFI, particularly because it gets tokens even if it's blocked. Jitte's lifegain, supplementary creature removal, lower cost and overall efficiency make it better than SoFI.

4 Lightning Bolt:
Best direct damage in the game? Check. I'll take 4.

4 Magma Jet:
Soooooooo good. So very, very good. I know, a lot of people might be wondering why Jet over Chain Lightning. Now I will say something that will blow your mind: I would run Magma Jet over Lightning Bolt if I had to choose between the two. It is that good. Understand that this deck's burn contingent is more for removing pesky blockers and opposing threats than it is for going to the dome. Against the majority of creatures in the format, the difference between 2 and 3 damage is irrelevant. Most creatures either have a toughness of 2 or less, or more than 3. The main exceptions are Kird Ape and Watchwolf, which get run in a deck that happens to be a fantastic matchup for you. How lucky.

As for Chain Lightning versus Magma Jet: First, you have no cards in the 2cc range besides Jet. The extra cost is almost never relevant because it fits your curve perfectly. Second, It is an instant, which is very important against Goblins for killing off Warchief before the attack phase, killing a Ringleader or Matron in response to its being targeted by Kiki-Jiki, removing a threat in response to a cycled Gempalm Incinerator to protect your dude, etc. Instant speed matters. Third, it can't be sent back at you, and there are plenty of red decks in the format that can do it. Last, and most importantly, SCRYE. Goddamn is it good. It helps you dig for the threats you need, gets you mana when you're short, and lets you dig past it when you've got enough. It's a virtual Timewalk in many scenarios, and the closest thing you're likely to see to real draw in an R/G Beats deck.

CARDS NOT INCLUDED

Skyshroud Elite:
The deck's manacurve obviates Elites, in that you already have 8 1cc permanents, and by turn 2, you're going to be casting your 3cc threats in most cases. In almost all circumstances, Kird Ape is just better.

Chain Lightning/Incinerate:
Because of the the 8 creature enhancements (Rancor and Jitte), the deck can't really afford to dedicate more than 8 slots to spot removal. As stated previously, Lightning Bolt and Magma Jet are simply the best options.

Cursed Scroll:
See Chain Lightning. Most of your deck needs to be beaters that you can attach equipment to. This ain't it. Furthermore, you want the ability to slowplay without overcommitting to the board. This allows you to dodge mass removal like Wrath of God, and is a valid tactic, because a single threat equipped with Rancor and/or Jitte can often be enough to keep the pressure on. Cursed Scroll is useless in this scenario. The only reason I might consider it at all is its ability to answer Silver Knight, which is otherwise a real problem for this deck.

Grim Lavamancer:
While reusable damage is nice, you actually send very few cards to the graveyard, which limits his usefulness a lot. Additionally, his inclusion makes you more succeptible to removal like Pyroclasm, Magma Jet, and Fire/Ice. Finally, he has terrible synergy with Burning-Tree Shaman. You want efficently costed beaters that you can attach Rancor and Jitte to, and this guy ain't it.

Nimble Mongoose/Werebear:
Thresh creatures are obviously very popular right now, but they don't belong here. This deck takes forever to build Threshiold. If you have a lot of cards in your yard early on, you're probably losing. On top of that, Mongoose has awful synergy with Rancor and Jitte.

Wild Mongrel:
One of the best green beaters ever printed, but he doesn't really have a place here. There's not much he could replace, except perhaps Burning-Tree Shaman, but in most cases, a 3/4 for 3 is going to serve this deck better than a 2/2 for 2 that forces you to pitch cards to keep him alive in ground battles.

Burning Wish:
Added utility is nice, but it's simply too slow to matter in most cases. In theory, in a combo-heavy metagame they're a good choice, but only against High Tide combo, really. And in a metagame with a lot of High Tide combo (if such a thing exists), I don't think I'd be playing this deck. And if there were and I was, a combination of Pyrostatic Pillar and REB is probably the better way to go anyway, because as I said, Wish is typically too slow to matter.

Sword of Fire and Ice:
Seems like a natural inclusion, I know. It has better synergy with BTS than Jitte does, and it's less easily shut down by Needle as well. The bottom line is that it simply does not fit the deck's curve. Your optimal play should look like: Turn 1: Elf, Turn 2: 3cc Beatstick, Turn 3: Cast Jitte, equip, attack. In testing SoFI was nearly always a full turn slower than Jitte, and that loss of tempo is just unacceptable in a pure aggro deck. In theory, you could run a 2/2 split between SoFI and Jitte, since it dodges Needle hate better, but my experience in testing was that most times I drew SoFI, I wished it was a Jitte instead. Test it yourself and you'll see what I mean.

Ravenous Baloth:
In certain select metagames, he might be worth running in the Slum slot. He's less aggressive than Slum, but he's much much better against straight Burn, Boros Deck Wins, and Angel Stompy. The fact that he's mono-green means that Silver Knight isn't a significant problem for him, where it's a real roadblock for Slum. Obviously the lifegain is a boon in the Burn matchup as well. On the other hand, you might consider running him in the sideboard for these matchups, because Slum is better overall. You'd bring him in over Troll Ascetic for these matchups, because Troll is bad against Silver Knight's First Strike, and dies to Burn's Flamebreaks.

Blastoderm:
He's worse than Slum here by a longshot. A lot of decks can afford to wait Blastoderm out, chump blocking him just long enough to let his Fading counters run out. Most importantly, you can't slap a Rancor or a Jitte on him, and this is extremely relevant. Lastly, Slum's damage during upkeep does add up, and it can often force through the last couple points of damage in situations where the board is locked up in a prolonged ground war.

Phantom Centaur:
A decent option, and comparable to Slum and Iwamori, because he's a resilient threat and has a power of 5 for 4 mana. That said, in most metagames, I prefer the extra damage from Slum or the Trample from Iwamori here.

Treetop Village:
This deck's mana curve is very tight. It tends to spend most or all of its mana every turn, at least until the late game. Drawing one of these in the early game will grievously affect your tempo, and you simply can't afford that. Further, it makes you more succeptible to mana disruption, which is contrary to the deck's overall strategy.

Wasteland:
No go. This deck is straight aggro. Wasteland isn't going to significantly improve any of your problem matchups, but it will hurt some of your good ones, Goblins in particular. You are the aggro in every matchup besides combo; Wasteland doesn't fit this role at all. Further, the color requirements of cards like Slum, Ascetic, and BTS mean that Wasteland will significantly destabilize proper color production.

SIDEBOARDING:
Given the wide variance in the metagame right now, and that the deck has a positive game against the two top decks without one, I'm not going to propose a standard sideboard, but I'll mention a few of the better options, and explain what role they fill in shoring up particularly problematic matchups:

Tormod's Crypt/Phyrexian Furnace:
Both cards fulfull the same role, obviously. Personally, I prefer Crypt over Furnace in this deck, because it's running on a very tight curve, and it wants to be dedicating its resources to casting cards which deal damage. Also, you typically only need one mass graveyard clearing effect to stall long enough to go lethal. That said, occasionally it makes sense to go for an even split between Crypts and Furnaces to dodge Pithing Needle.

Matchups where you might want them: Primarily Thresh, of course. In most cases, this is really all you need against them. Also good against Salvager Game, Dredge-a-Tog, Ichorid, and anything with Life from the Loam in it. Because of its versatility in the modern meta, this is a pretty common inclusion.

Pithing Needle:
Obviously an excellent all-around answer to the modern metagame. Its primary role is as an anti-combo measure, but is so comprehensive that it's typically a solid inclusion, particularly going into an unknown metagame.

Matchups where you might want them: A lot of them, really. Particularly against anything with Psychatog in it, Survival, Vedalken Shackles, Salvager Game, and FlameVault.

Winter Orb:
A solid anti-control measure, and one you can abuse fairly easily thanks to Elves and ESG.

Matchups where you might want them: Rifter/Wombat/Slide, first and foremost. Their biggest weakness is their manabase. You can exploit this with Orb to good effect. Also solid against Blue-Based Control like Landstill.

Null Rod:
Good against anything with a lot of artifacts, obviously. In most metagames it's not worth running, but it's a consideration in some.

Matchups where you might want them: Tendrils Combo, Belcher, and especially Affinity.

Defense Grid:
A decent choice against Blue-Based Control and also against Wing Shards. Also good against Solidarity. Given the near total absence of Blue-Based Control, and its general narrowness overall, it's not worth running in most metagames.

Matchups where you might want them: Blue-Based Control, Solidarity.

Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast:
The best red sideboard cards ever printed. Good against anything with blue, obviously.

Matchups where you might want them: You don't really need them against Gro, and their inclusion here would only thin your threat density, which is key against them. A good answer to Psychatog, High Tide combo and Blue-Based Control.

Pyrostatic Pillar:
A solid answer to Storm-Based Combo, other Combo, Thresh, and any other matchup where your opponent will play lots of cheap spells.

Matchups where you might want them: Golden in the Nausea, Solidarity, Spring Tide, IGGy Pop Matchups. Very good in the Thresh matchup as well, because they cast a lot more spells than you do, and it helps you win the damage race.

Price of Progress:
A good answer for any decks with lots of non-basics, obviously. Probably not worth running in most metagames, as your most problematic matchups don't tend to run a lot of non-basics, and you're not exactly short on damage dealers as it is.

Matchups where you might want them: Thresh maybe, but you're already fairly solid there. It's a decent finisher against Stax if you see a lot of it in your metagame. Also excellent against Landstill, but it's not particularly popular right now.

Caller of the Claw:
A decent option for mass removal. The main problem with it is that it is a highly reactive card in a highly aggressive deck. You don't typically want to be leaving mana untapped for this kind of thing. Then again, against control decks like Rifter and Wombat, you tend to slow-play anyway, so it might not be a terrible option.

Matchups where you might want them: Wombat/Rifter/Slide. Also decent against anything with Silver Knight, as well as other decks with mass removal, like Landstill and Stax.

Sulfuric Vortex:
Good against lifegain, obviously. Pulse of the Fields, Renewed Faith, and Exalted Angel can be a pain, and this provides an answer. Winter Orb, Flashfires, and Anarchy are probably better answers for these matchups, though.

Matchups where you might want them: Wombat/Rifter/Slide, Angel Stompy, U/W Angel Control. In all likelihood you're not going to need them. Unlike straight Burn, lifegain strategies aren't particularly crippling against you.

Flashfires:
Excellent against Wombat specifically, and also Rifter. It's a rather narrow card, however, and can be answered with Sacred Ground. Winter Orb is likely the better choice in most metagames.

Matchups where you might want them: Rabid Wombat, mainly. I'd likely run Winter Orb in all but the most Wombat-heavy metagames.

Anarchy:
A seemingly narrow sideboard option, but it actually helps against a lot of the deck's biggest problems. Silver Knight in particular is very very bad for you. Other problems like Astral Slide, Worship, Solitary Confinement, Humility, Moat, Eternal Dragon, Exalted Angel, and Mystic Enforcer are also significant, and Anarchy answers them all. At 4cc, it's well within the deck's curve, and can be cast as early as turn 2 or 3 if absolutely necessary.

Matchups where you might want them: Angel Stompy first and foremost, but also solid aginst Wombat, CAL, Boros Deck Wins, and even UGw Thresh.

Boil/Tsunami:
Great against anything with Islands, but only in games where you're likely to go to the long game. REB and Pillar are probably better chocies against High Tide Combo.

Matchups where you might want them: Blue-Based Control. High Tide Combo maybe, but you have better options available.

Compost:
An excellent card against discard strategies, but probably not necessary in most cases. The deck has the ability to simply topdeck into game-ending threats like Rumbling Slum, Troll Ascetic, and Umezawa's Jitte, even in the face of an early barrage of hand destruction.

Matchups where you might want them: Deadguy Ale, Mono-Black Aggro-Control. In the end, probably not necessary.

Naturalize/Tranquil Domain:
Yet another generally versatile sideboard option. As it turns out, a good number of your real problems are enchantments as opposed to artifacts, so Tranquil domain may be the better call in certain metagames, though it does lack Naturalize's versatility.

Matchups where you might want them: UGw Gro's Worships can pose a problem, so they're decent here. They're a good option in the Wombat/Rifter/Slide matchups for thinkgs like Lightning Rift, Astral Slide, and Humility. Also a nice option against Solitary Confinement in the CAL matchup.

Ravenous Baloth:
Burn is a particularly unpleasant matchup for you. Baloth can turn this around if there's a lot of Burn in your meta. Baloth can also be good in getting around Silver Knight, which can effectively nullify the rest of the threats in your deck. Not for all sideboards, but a good option in the right ones.

Matchups where you might want them: Burn primarily, but also anything with Silver Knight.

Artifact Mutation:
A narrower answer than Naturalize or Tranquil Domain, but a decent choice in certain areas.

Matchups where you might want them: Stax, mainly. Not bad against Ravager either.

General Sideboard Construction Tips:
Overall, your biggest problems are combo, cycling-based Control, anything with Silver Knight, and Burn. When constructing your sideboard, you should consider which of these, if any, are most prevalent in your metagame, and build your sideboard accordingly.

When approaching an unknown metagame, I'd recommend focusing most on generalized hate cards, especially ones which are good against combo. Secondarily, I'd concern myself with control, especially white-based control.

A sample sideboard for an unknown meta might look something like so:

3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle
2 Naturalize
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Anarchy

This provides you with Crypt, Needle, Pillar, and Naturalize as anti-combo options, which is fairly all-inclusive. Next, against Rifter/Wombat you have Anarchy, Naturalize, and even Pithing Needle and Crypt to answer Dragon recursion. If I knew I would be facing a lot of Rifter, I'd make room for 3 or more Winter Orbs, but they're narrow enough that I'd likely leave them out in an unknown meta. Lastly, you have Anarchy to answer Silver Knight and other problems like Exalted Angel, Worship, and Mystic Enforcer. Overall, you're pretty well covered with this board when you don't know what you'll be facing.

MATCHUPS:
Before I begin, a disclaimer: A lot of my testing was haphazard. It was done against competent players with solid decklists, but it wasn't strictly 2-out-of-3 matches, and only about half the games were with sideboard. The numbers included in this section are a point of reference, but they are not totally conclusive. There are certain matchups I'm sure about, and in those cases I will be explicit. Likewise, in the matchups I'm not totally sure about, I will say so, and explain why. You've been warned.

Vial Goblins:
Preliminary Results: 11-3

This is one of the matchups I'm sure of. Goblins is distinctly favorable for you. You have 8-12 turn 1 answers for Lackey, and all your threats are bigger than all of theirs. Their removal is well-equipped to deal with weenies, but quite insufficient in the face of fat, which is pretty much all you've got. Rancor keeps you from getting bogged down in a stalemate, and an active Jitte just utterly wrecks their forces. A Troll Ascetic equipped with Rancor or Jitte is almost an automatic win. Your manabase is extremely robust, so Wasteland and Port are typically irrellevant here. As always, Gobbos can just steal wins in some games, but it happens very rarely here.

Sideboard Strategy: None. You don't need one to win this. If they bring in Pithing Needle for Jitte, you might consider bringing in a couple Naturalizes, since they also hit Vials, but it's not totally necessary, because you don't absolutely need Jitte to win.

3-Color Thresh (Gro):
Preliminary Results: (UGw): 6-3, (UGr): 9-3, (UGb): 3-1

This is another matchup I'm confident about. It's difficult to explain the dynamics of this matchup precisely, because decklists and playstyles vary quite a bit. In a very general sense, you win by drawing out early counters and removal with your smaller threats, then play out your bombs (BTS, Slum, Ascetic, Jitte) once you've run them out of juice. By and large, your threats are bigger than theirs, and you have more of them. Elvish Spirit Guide is especially useful here, in that it forces your opponent to second-guess their own Dazes.

The black splash is the easiest for you, because they don't have lategame bombs like Enforcer to deal with, and because Confidants give you somewhere to point your burn.

The white splash is slightly easier than the red splash, but not by a lot. They have StP for your big threats, but you have enough of them for this to be a temporary setback. The potentially troublesome threat is Worship from the board, but this isn't as bad as it might seem. You have Anarchy to answer both Enforcer and Worship, and it often comes at a time when they're tapped out or their counters are depleted. Furthermore, it's not out of the question to simply win the game by decking them. You can hold off their ground forces all day, so the only real threat to you is Mystic Enforcer. An active Jitte and/or well-placed Burn can nullify these threats fairly easily. Because they'll inevitably be drawing more cards than you, they'll deck themselves first. It's not particularly elegant, but it can work.

The red splash has 8-12 removal spells maindeck, which can slow your progression and hinder your beats. It also makes it easier for them to race pre-board. Post board, they get Pyroclasm for your Trolls, and Flame-Tongue Kavu as general removal and added aggressiveness. This can make for a tougher game, but with Pillar in from the board and Crypt to slow Threshold, you can typically race quite easily.

Sideboard Strategy: Again, it's difficult to be precise about this, because of the wide variance in decklists and strategies. Pyrostatic Pillar and Tormod's Crypt are usually no-brainers. What to take out is more difficult to say. If your opponent is bringing in Pithing Needles against you, it's not a bad idea to side out 3 Trolls and 4 Jittes for 3 Crypt and 4 Pillar. They'll typically name Jitte with their Needle first, Crypt second, and Troll last. If they don't know you've removed your Jittes, this can be a very effective strategy for you, by drastically lowering Needle's effectiveness against you. Against the white splash, Anarchy can be a real boon, because it removes Enforcers and Worships. Some combination of Anarchy, Crypt, and possibly Pillar is a good way to go here. I need to do more testing to know exactly which is the best configuration, but that's it in a nutshell.

3-Color Aggro:
Preliminary Results: 9-1

This matchup is a very tough one to call with any degree of accuracy, because the lists change a whole bunch, right down to what colors they run. I tested against both GRW and GRB. In a general sense, they have real trouble against you simply because your beaters are bigger than theirs. Almost every trade they make with you is a 2-for-1 in your favor, and that wins you games. Troll is obviously a house in this matchup, as is Rancor. The MVP is Jitte, of course, as it just wrecks their entire board. Even if they're running Jittes of their own, you're almost certainly running more, which means you can use the first as a virtual Disenchant and then follow up with another later on. Again, this matchup depends very much on the specific build, but by and large, it is very positive for you.

Sideboard Strategy: In most cases, none. Like the Goblins matchup, you don't really need one to win. If they bring in Pithing Needle for your Jittes, you might consider siding them out and bringing in Baloth in their place, if you're running them. It's yet another beatstick that's bigger than theirs, and the lifegain can help you win damage races.

R/W Rifter / Wombat / Slide:
Preliminary Results: 5-6

This is one matchup where I feel the preliminary numbers are misleading. While it would appear to be about 50/50, I think Rifter has the advantage here. It's not an overwhelming one, but their barrage of early removal followed by difficult-to-answer threats can be quite difficult.

A few observations about this match: First, a lot depends on the die roll. Going first is huge here, because a lot of the real bombs (WoG, hardcast Dragon, hardcast Slice and Dice, hardcast Akroma's Vengeance) don't come online until turns 4-7, and they're critical against you. Of the 5 games I won, the majority of them were done by putting on extreme pressure early on. Of the games my opponent won, every single one of them was due to successfully stalling into the lategame, removing a threat at a time, and then recurring Eternal Dragon (sometimes in multiples) for the win. This typically occurred the turn before I would be dealing lethal damage, which is why the die roll is so meaningful here.

In terms of actual play, you want to play aggressively, but you also don't want to overcommit into Wrath of God. Ideally, you want to drop a solid beatstick, then equip it with Rancor or Jitte and force your opponent to answer it. Then play another and do the same. And then another, and so on. An active Jitte wins games here, so that should be your goal. Note also that Jitte and Rancor make Humility a whole lot less effective against you, and in fact you'd rather see Humility than a full-fledged Eternal Dragon sitting accross the table from you in most cases. When possible, save your burn for lategame reach or Dragon removal, but don't hesitate to use Jet in the early game to smooth your draws.

Sideboard Strategy: This is highly dependent on what you're running in your board, and what your opponent's decklist looks like. Against Mono-White Wombat, Flashfires is an excellent choice, if you have the room. Against all iterations of this deck, Winter Orb is an extremely effective choice as well. It dodges Sacred Ground, and, while it can be removed with Disenchant or Vengeance, it prevents your opponent from digging for these answers aggressively. In most cases, a resolved Orb with a significant threat on the table is enough to win the game. If you're not running Orb or Flashfires, other options here include Pithing Needle and Anarchy. In testing, the biggest problem by far was recurring, hardcast Eternal Dragons. Pithing Needle is decent here because it can shut off early mana fetching, and can prevent it being brought back from the yard in the late game. Anarchy is decent as temporary removal for Dragon, Decree tokens, Humility, Moat, and Slide. Quite frankly, I haven't had enough testing yet against all iterations of this archetype to say what is exactly the best combination of sideboard cards here. I'll say that Winter Orb is the best catch-all answer, however.

Solidarity:
Preliminary Results: None yet.

I haven't had an opportunity to test this yet. Most of my testing partners don't play the deck, and it's essentially non-existent in my metagame. Once I've done some testing, I'll post results and comments. In the meanwhile, I'll say that it's almost certainly an unfavorable matchup for you. You can beat it with the sideboard the same way Goblins does, by running some combination of REB and Pillar, but this eats up a lot of sideboard space, and as I said, the deck's not seeing much play right now. I'd offer the following advice when facing Solidarity:

1. Play as aggressively as possible. Bring in Pyrostatic Pillar and, if you have it, REB from the board, and continue to play as aggressively as possible.
2. Don't play David Gearhart.
3. If all efforts at number 2 fail, try to spill a beverage on his cards while he's pile shuffling.

Sideboard Strategy: Bring in Pyrostatic Pillar. If you have it, bring in REB. If you believe in a god, pray to him.

Salvager Game:
Preliminary Results: None yet.

Haven't tested against this yet either, for the same reason as Solidarity. I can't find anyone that plays it. Having played against it with other aggro, I would guess that it's likely to be one of your more positive combo matchups, particularly after sideboard.

Sideboard Strategy: Bring in 4 Pillar, 3 Needles, and 3 Crypts. With this combination of hate, the Salvagers combo should be rendered completely ineffective. They still have the Colossus plan to fall back on, but that's something you can actually race.

Mono-Black Aggro / B/W Aggro-Control:
Preliminary Results: 6-1

I lump these two together because they play very similarly against you. You have a definite advantage here. Your manabase is very stable, which makes their land destruction quite easy to play around. They don't tend to have a lot of removal, so your mana elves have a longer average lifespan in this matchup, which means your fat comes out quicker, which is horribly problematic for them. You have 8 burn spells for early threats like Hyppie and Confidant, and Jitte will effectively control every threat in their deck. The biggest problem you have to worry about is Perish from the sideboard, as it hits most creatures in your deck. As long as you prepare for it and play around it, however, you'll do just fine. Simply slow play your threats. They're not putting enough pressure on you to force you to be overly aggressive. Resolve one threat, get a Rancor or a Jitte on it, and go to town. Once they remove that one, cast another and repeat the process.

Sideboard Strategy: None. You don't need it.

Nausea:
Preliminary Results: 4-2

Yeah, I know, wtf. All my testing for this matchup was done against Roop himself, so we know the decklist is good and the player is competent. Obviously six games isn't enough to come to any real determinations about the matchup, but it is winnable for you. Interestingly, of the two games Roop won, they were both turn 1 kills. Of the games he lost, one was due to a Spoils which put him into lethal burn range, and the other two were due to turn 2 Pillars, which are a total house in this matchup. Just getting to a Wish, casting it, getting removal, and casting that costs your opponent a metric fuckpile of life. Add Spoils and burn into the mix and it's often too much to overcome.

Sideboard Strategy: Bring in 4 Pillars and whatever artifact hate you happen to be running. Mull aggressively for Pillar. Dig aggressively for Pillar with Magma Jet. Kill Helms on sight. That's all there is to it, really. If you live to turn 2 or 3 you're usually in good shape.

Flame-Vault Stax:
Preliminary Results: 3-0

Only preliminary testing here, so I wouldn't call it definitive by any means. Your main advantage here is that you play a lot of permanents and accleration, which gives you some flexibility in working around lock pieces like Smokestack and Propaganda. You also have an advantage in that they're not running a lot of removal aside from Smokestack besides Pyroclasm, which isn't very good against you at all. Propaganda isn't particularly effective against you because you often only need a single threat to win. Smokestack is less effective against you because you can recycle Rancor. All in all, if you play aggressively and get as many permanents on the table as possible, you're in good shape.

Sideboard Strategy: Bring in Pithing Needle for Vault. The extra time it takes them to Wish for an answer is often all the time you need. If you have it, bring in artifact hate as well.

5/3:
Preliminary Results: 3-2

This matchup appears to be about even, though slightly favorable for you. Both decks have the same basic strategy: accellerate fat, undercosted beats, make them bigger with equipment, and smash face. Where they have disruption in the form of Chalice and Tangle Wire, you have removal. You break about even in this regard. A first turn Chalice for 1 is a real pain in the ass, but it's not a game-breaker on its own. Your real threats are all at 2cc and above. The fact that your opponent is dealing damage to himself with Tombs is a real advantage to your ability to win the damage race. This is one of the biggest factors in giving you an advantage here. Overall, the most important factor in this matchup is the die roll, however. Going first is absolutely huge here.

Sideboard Strategy: Whatever artifact hate you happen to be running. Artifact Mutation is a total house, but Naturalize works just as well. Added removal can push you over the top here.

Angel Stompy:
Preliminary Results: 3-9

This is a fantastically bad matchup. I originally created Angel Stompy to beat Zilla Stompy, and it still does. Silver Knight is just a total house against you. This is one archetype where Iwamori is most definitely a better call than Rumbling Slum. Silver Knight alone can hold off nearly every threat in your deck. Soltari Priest is hard to remove and is a nightmare when equipped. They have their own Jittes to act as removal against yours. Sword of Fire and Ice is quite bad for you. A hardcast Angel is almost certainly game over. Swords to Plowshares keeps your bigger threats at bay and stalls your mana production in the early game. Parallax Wave removes all your threats and protects their own from Anarchy.

Your only hope in this matchup is to simply play as aggressively as possible. Try to get a Jitte active as quickly as you can, preferably before they find Silver Knight.

Sideboard Strategy: Bring in 3 Anarchy and 2 Naturalize. Pray that they play badly and overcommit to the board. Dig aggressively for Anarchy. Save your Naturalizes for SoFI and Parallax Wave.

Boros Deck Wins:
Preliminary Results: 5-3

Like Angel Stompy, but better for you. As always, Silver Knight is a royal pain in the ass for you. However, their threats are much smaller, their removal is far less effective against your threats, and they don't have Jittes to counter yours. Your main goal here is to resolve a threat and get a Jitte on it asap. If they've got a Silver Knight active, you're going to have to get a Jitte and a Rancor on a threat, so that damage spills over and you get Jitte counters to remove Knight. This sounds hard, but it's a viable tactic.

Sideboard Strategy: Anarchy is actually effective here because they don't have Parallax Wave. Bring in all 3. They get rid of pesky Isamarus and Lions as well.

Burn:
Preliminary Results: 5/7

A decidedly bad matchup, but not impossible. Their average goldfish is a turn or two faster than you in most cases, and they can just ignore your creatures completely. Jitte, however, is a total house in this matchup. If you get one online the game is essentially over, sicne Burn can't cope with lifegain. When considering mulligans, be looking for hands with Jitte - particularly ones with a resilient beater to attach it to.

Sideboard Strategy: If you have Ravenous Baloth, run them. It vastly improves your game here. If not, bring in 2-3 Naturalize for either Pithing Needle or Sulfuric Vortex, which they will almost certainly board against you.

CONCLUSION:
This deck smashes Goblins. It's strong against Thresh. It crushes black-based aggro-control, and it has a strong game against 3c Aggro and Zoo. It has decent game against Rifter, and has the sideboard options it needs to do well in this matchup.

The deck has significant problems against Burn, anything with Silver Knight, and combo. Angel Stompy is terrible for it. These archetypes are not particularly popular right now in most metagames.

The deck has distinctly positive matchups against the most prevalent decks in the format excepting Rifter. It has poor matchups against some of the least prevalent archetypes in the current metagame. It does very well against randomness. In most metagames, it is a very solid choice.

Brushwagg

02-17-2006, 09:22 PM

Well no one can knock you for not testing.

4 Magma Jet:
Soooooooo good. So very, very good. I know, a lot of people might be wondering why Jet over Chain Lightning. Now I will say something that will blow your mind: I would run Magma Jet over Lightning Bolt if I had to choose between the two. It is that good. Understand that this deck's burn contingent is more for removing pesky blockers and opposing threats than it is for going to the dome. Against the majority of creatures in the format, the difference between 2 and 3 damage is irrelevant. Most creatures either have a toughness of 2 or less, or more than 3. The main exceptions are Kird Ape and Watchwolf, which get run in a deck that happens to be a fantastic matchup for you. How lucky.

I just want to bring this up, because you said in another thread that I suggested Magam Jet in and you didn't seem that thrilled about it. I to have tested this in Aggro decks and it can be really good at keeping the threats coming. Especially when the deck has really no extra card draw.

Vardaman

02-17-2006, 10:55 PM

It says a lot about the strength of Jitte when it gets played in decks with Burning Tree Shaman. Sure it kills you, but it's damn good.

Deep6er

02-17-2006, 11:20 PM

2. Don't play David Gearhart.
3. If all efforts at number 2 fail, try to spill a beverage on his cards while he's pile shuffling.

Sideboard Strategy: Bring in Pyrostatic Pillar. If you have it, bring in REB. If you believe in a god, pray to him

Unbelievably awesome. (And accurate. Don't forget that.) One more thing, is you should respect the other people who play Solidarity well. Just because their name isn't David Gearhart doesn't mean that you can treat it as some idiot running the deck. Seriously though, kick ass.

Zilla

02-18-2006, 12:02 AM

Well no one can knock you for not testing.
I certainly hope not. My testing partners were frogboy, wastedlife, Evil Roopey, Artowis, IBA, braves54321, and Corrupted Angel. I trust their lists and their playskills.

I just want to bring this yup, because you said in another thread that I suggested Magam Jet in and you didn't seem that thrilled about it. I to have tested this in Aggro decks and it can be really good at keeping the threats coming. Especially when the deck has really no extra card draw.
I'm not sure where I said this, but it's possible that I did. It really depends quite heavily on the role that your burn is playing. If you're using it primarily as reach in the late game, then Chain Lightning may sometimes be the better choice. If its primary role is as blocker removal, and the curve supports it, then Jet can be truly awesome. It also depends quite heavily on the metagame... right now, there are very few creatures with 3 toughness. Most have 2 or less or 4 or more, so the difference between Jet and Chain Lightning is minimal in this regard. All I know for certain is that I wouldn't drop it unless I were dropping red altogether, in which case I'd run white for StP, Hierarch, Watchwolf, and Brushhopper. This gives you a much better game against Angel Stompy and Burn, but a worse game against everything else.

It says a lot about the strength of Jitte when it gets played in decks with Burning Tree Shaman. Sure it kills you, but it's damn good.
Yeah. I recognize how bad the synergy is between Jittes and BTS looks on paper, but in games it almost never matters. A resolved, active Jitte typically spells game over. Out of all my testing I don't think I've ever taken more than 4 or 5 damage from BTS because of Jitte. Either they don't survive long enough for it to matter, or I play a different threat (like Troll) before the Shaman, or I've already won the game. Looks bad on paper, works fine in testing.

One more thing, is you should respect the other people who play Solidarity well. Just because their name isn't David Gearhart doesn't mean that you can treat it as some idiot running the deck.
I hear ya. I do respect the deck, and even when it's not played to its fullest potential it's very fast and consistent. I just feel far more comfortable about my odds playing against the average Solidarity player as opposed to, say... you. :tongue:

Lesgoon

02-18-2006, 09:27 AM

Nice update to one of my favorites Zilla, your new list looks very solid. I like all the 4-ofs, it really focuses what you want to do with the deck to a point.

That being said, I feel that at least 2 Naturalizes belong in the maindeck. I'm not sure about your meta, but in Rochester there are plenty of hosing enchantments and artifacts flying around that can completely shut this down. Moat, Solitary Confinement, first turn Scepter/Chant, and Burning Bridges are just a few that come to mind. I realize none of these with the exception of Moat are played in any tier 1 decks, but losing to jank which just happens to have the perfect artifact or enchantment that makes 90% of your deck dead is an exercise in frustration. Post board the matchups with these decks get much better I realize, but It almost seems like game 1 against such decks is an autoloss if they can find their relevant hoser. Naturalize is also quite good against any iteration of Angel Stompy as well, a deck this has serious problems with. It hits plenty of targets against them; it will never be a dead card.

The question is what cards can be removed without crucially slowing down what this deck wants to do? Playing early beef, putting the best creature pump in the game on said beef, and crushing face is what we want to do, not hold instants and respond to other players. I really dont know what to remove, but I feel that it should either be to dump 2 Lighting Bolts, or a combination of 1 ESG and something else, maybe a Rancor or a Bolt. The high creature count that can carry rancor or Jitte is something that seems very important, so I'd be very hesitant to remove beaters, even relatively small ones like Kird Ape.

frogboy

02-18-2006, 02:01 PM

The Rifter matchup numbers are slightly misleading, because I was still tweaking the list I was playing for the first few games, and I lost a couple of those. However, I cut Humility for Astral Slide, so it's gonna be different from more stock builds. It felt like Rifter was way ahead in most games unless RG just came out with all guns blazing and I didn't have Wrath.

I also wanted to mention that a 2/2 Slum/Iwamori split seems awful; play whichever one fits your metagame, and if you're not sure, play Slum and hope that you're not gonna run into infinite Angel Stompy players. It's probably fair to say that if your metagame is severely infested with Angel Stompy that you should play something else. As Zilla said, Angel Stompy was literally built to maul RG aggro.

Machinus

02-18-2006, 02:05 PM

What's your Stax matchup like? Wrath of God is bad times for R/G.

Evil Roopey

02-18-2006, 02:42 PM

I just want to point out that all of the games Zilla played against Nausea were PostBoard, I'm pretty sure that it is almost unwinnable game one.

Zilla

02-18-2006, 03:36 PM

The question is what cards can be removed without crucially slowing down what this deck wants to do? Playing early beef, putting the best creature pump in the game on said beef, and crushing face is what we want to do, not hold instants and respond to other players. I really dont know what to remove, but I feel that it should either be to dump 2 Lighting Bolts, or a combination of 1 ESG and something else, maybe a Rancor or a Bolt. The high creature count that can carry rancor or Jitte is something that seems very important, so I'd be very hesitant to remove beaters, even relatively small ones like Kird Ape.
In most metagames I wouldn't bother with the MD Naturalize, but I understand it can be correct in some metas. If I were going to, I'd probably drop 2 Shamans, or 1 Shaman and 1 Troll for it. Your 3cc slot is mildly clogged, so you could stand to lose a couple of these threats if it were absolutely necessary. The reason that I don't typically mind the number of threats at 3cc is because you end up slow playing a lot anyway, and in those scenarios you want to be holding back major threats.

The Rifter matchup numbers are slightly misleading, because I was still tweaking the list I was playing for the first few games, and I lost a couple of those. However, I cut Humility for Astral Slide, so it's gonna be different from more stock builds. It felt like Rifter was way ahead in most games unless RG just came out with all guns blazing and I didn't have Wrath.
Note that the numbers listed here don't only include my testing with you, which was 4/4 straight up, half games with board, half without. There's also a 3 game match included in those numbers that I played against IBA's WG Wombat.

But I agree with the sentiment - it's not a favorable or 50/50 matchup. Of course, I said that a few times in my original post. From my perspective, though, Wrath wasn't what was winning you games. 3 out of 4 of the games you won, you won because you were able to hardcast a Dragon when I'd have been attacking for lethal damage the following turn. Wrath of God obviously helped slow me down in these games, but without Dragon you'd have lost them. This leads me to wonder where the best SB strategy lies against Rifter. I know for a fact that Winter Orb is savage beats against it... but it might be worth backing WOrb with Pithing Needle on Dragon, as it further stunts mana development and prevents lategame threats. We'll have to test that some more.

What's your Stax matchup like? Wrath of God is bad times for R/G.
I don't know. We can test it, if you like. I've tested the Flame-Vault Stax matchup, so I know kind of how the Stax dynamic will go, but obviously that doesn't have Wrath of God, so it's going to be different. I will say this, though: Wrath of God isn't nearly as bad for this build as it would seem. The deck has 12 primary beatsticks, 12 secondary, smaller beatsticks, and 8 creature enchancements which turn any one of them into a very real threat. Slow playing against Wrath is really very easy because the deck's threat density is very very high.

Note that in my testing against Flame-Vault Stax, I face Propaganda in 2 of those games. I answered that by only attacking with one threat every turn. That one threat was dealing anywhere from 5-9 damage per turn, however. In short, aside from wiping out a few mana elves and costing some tempo, Wrath of God is typically a one-for-one trade against this deck. Like I said though, I'd like to test it if you want.

I just want to point out that all of the games Zilla played against Nausea were PostBoard, I'm pretty sure that it is almost unwinnable game one.
This is mostly true, except that one of the games you lost, I didn't draw any SB hate against you at all. You lost to Spoils followed by direct damage. In that sense, RG can beat you game 1. It would be wrong to suggest that Nausea isn't heavily favored in game 1, though. Pre-board, the faster Nausea tries to go off, the better for you, because they're more likely to fizzle or kill themselves with Spoils than if they wait an extra turn or 2.

Machinus

02-18-2006, 03:46 PM

InI don't know. We can test it, if you like. I've tested the Flame-Vault Stax matchup, so I know kind of how the Stax dynamic will go, but obviously that doesn't have Wrath of God, so it's going to be different. I will say this, though: Wrath of God isn't nearly as bad for this build as it would seem. The deck has 12 primary beatsticks, 12 secondary, smaller beatsticks, and 8 creature enchancements which turn any one of them into a very real threat. Slow playing against Wrath is really very easy because the deck's threat density is very very high.

I actually think the matchup would be in favor of Angel Stax. R/G is basically the kind of deck it was designed to beat. You don't have to test though. It would be hard to get good data unless you were playing me anyway : )

Zilla

02-18-2006, 06:12 PM

I actually think the matchup would be in favor of Angel Stax. R/G is basically the kind of deck it was designed to beat. You don't have to test though. It would be hard to get good data unless you were playing me anyway : )
That's what I was suggesting, actually. If you have the time to test it on Apprentice or MWS, let me know and we can. You're probably right that it's somewhat favorable to Angel Stax, but there's no reason not to find out for sure.

TsumiBand

02-19-2006, 05:28 PM

Zilla

02-19-2006, 05:53 PM

Re: Angel Stompy. Doesn't seem like it should be such a bummer, your guys are fatter than theirs and your burn should make difficult an Exalted or active Mom. Would shitty tech like Drop of Honey work here? On a mana-per-power ratio the only guys tinier than theirs are Llanowar, but Jitte aids in altering p/t pretty handily.
What it seems like and what it is are two totally different things. Angel Stompy is far and away this deck's worst matchup, including combo. Silver Knight alone will hold off your forces in most cases. Double Silver Knight is a total nightmare. Parallax Wave and StP deal with a lot of your threats. SoFI is absolutely devastating. Your clock isn't fast enough to race hardcast Angels. They have Jittes to nullify yours. Even when they don't, Jitte can't get counters when there's a Silver Knight on the opposite side of the board. Anarchy is really your only chance in this matchup, and if they have Parallax Wave, even that won't be enough.

It wouldn't be that hard to tweak the maindeck to fix this problem, but Angel Stompy isn't prevalent enough to bother, I don't think. This deck is designed to have extremely consistent game against Goblins, Thresh, and Zoo, and it does. It's purely a metagame deck, designed to beat the most prevalent decks, with weaknesses against the least prevalent. I think it's a mistake to try to tweak the deck to beat its truly abysmal matchups. If your metagame has a lot of Silver Knights or Burn in it, you should run a different deck.

Bongo

02-19-2006, 06:32 PM

Congratulations for creating yet another amazing deck!

Not only very strong in the right metagame, but also a fucking blast to play.

Concerning the Slum/Iwamori slot:

This is just theorizing, but I would run Iwamori over Rumbling Slum.
This is because of two reasons:
One, the trample damage is absolutely huge in a deck like this. Say your opponent blocks your Slum, he's saved himself 5 damage, 4 if you count the ping. Now, if your opponent blocks Iwamori, he still takes somewhere between 1-4 damage in one attack (probably 3, because most creatures have two toughness). Slum does deal more damage from a goldfish standpoint, but in a creature-filled metagame as the one right now, the spillover damage from trample is a lot better. While you have Rancor, you don't draw them all the time.

Two, Rumbling Slum is red, and red is one of the most popular colors right now. There is a good chance you will suffer from splash damage.

Great work, great deck!

Jolfer

02-19-2006, 08:18 PM

Have you ran into any problems with perish (it kills everything but kird apes)? You write off black matchups as easy but with a lot of decks that run black (splash or base) run perish SBed now because of thres/gro' + various other green decks (R/G beats, madness, stompy ect..). Just curious mainly, I don't have a problem with them at all with my build, but it's more "traditional" with quick beats over bigger ones with lots of accel.

Zilla

02-19-2006, 10:33 PM

Jolfer

02-19-2006, 11:37 PM

The nature of this deck makes it very easy to slow-roll your opponent, particularly when they're not putting a lot of pressure on you. All you really need to do is resolve a single fat threat, equip it with Jitte or Rancor, and beat their face in. When they play Perish, cast another one. Even if they're attacking you with Hymns, you topdeck faaaar more consistently than they do. An active Jitte makes it nearly impossbile for them to win. Even with Perish in the mix, this matchup has been positive.

That makes sense, the only problem I could see is actually with hombrew because they may perish killing your current fatty along with mana producers (assuming they've also taken down a land or two via wasteland/sink/vindicate). But I suppose with 20 lands that doesn't happen fairly often.

SevenBlades

02-20-2006, 05:41 PM

Have you considered Culling Scales for the Angel Stompy matchup? Sure, it doesn't answer Exalted Angel, but pretty much all of their other beats.
With Rancor, the Scales can be kept online for as long as you want.
I have a feeling this might be gold :tongue:

Another thing to be considered might be Viridian Zealot maindeck. They make you not scoop against maindeck Worship, help win the Jitte war, clear Standstill (if the deck is still played in your meta, didn't see it in your matchup analysis), and may knock out a random Helm or two. With Rancor / Jitte, he is a decent beater (though what creature isn't?).

Zilla

02-20-2006, 06:13 PM

That makes sense, the only problem I could see is actually with hombrew because they may perish killing your current fatty along with mana producers (assuming they've also taken down a land or two via wasteland/sink/vindicate). But I suppose with 20 lands that doesn't happen fairly often.
Yeah, it doesn't. The main thing is that they simply aren't ever putting a lot of pressure on you. Even after a concentrated attack on the hand and land, you typically have the time you need to just topdeck into land and threats. Perish ends up being a 1 for 1 trade in most circumstances, and that's just terrible for them.

Have you considered Culling Scales for the Angel Stompy matchup? Sure, it doesn't answer Exalted Angel, but pretty much all of their other beats.
With Rancor, the Scales can be kept online for as long as you want.
I have a feeling this might be gold

Another thing to be considered might be Viridian Zealot maindeck. They make you not scoop against maindeck Worship, help win the Jitte war, clear Standstill (if the deck is still played in your meta, didn't see it in your matchup analysis), and may knock out a random Helm or two. With Rancor / Jitte, he is a decent beater (though what creature isn't?).
Hm. Culling Scales is definitely an option for the AS matchup... I'll have to test it out to see if it works. One potential drawback to that strategy is that you have 12 permanents in the 1cc range, which could get in the way of removing Silver Knight, which is one of your biggest obstacles here. I'll test it out and see how it works. In the end though, Cursed Scroll is probably going to be a better option for this particular task. The synergy with Rancor is interesting, though. I'll try it out.

Shaman is also an option, but I'm not exactly sure what you want to cut for it. Kird Ape is probably the weakest slot in the deck, but more threats in the 3cc slot will stretch the curve pretty severely. It's a tough call. I guess it deserves some testing... I'll give it a try. On a side note, I'd go with Uktabi Orangutan over Zealot on the off chance your opponent has Plague naming Elves.

spiritmage788

02-20-2006, 06:16 PM

@Godzilla: I think you're confusing Viridian Shaman and Viridian Zealot.

Zilla

02-20-2006, 06:20 PM

@Godzilla: I think you're confusing Viridian Shaman and Viridian Zealot.
Indeed I am. I misread his suggestion. At 2cc Zealot may be a decent inclusion. I'll test it out, probably in the Kird Ape slot.

calosso

02-20-2006, 06:32 PM

Zilla

02-20-2006, 06:55 PM

Have you tested tin-street holligan and Scab-clan mauler? 2 for a 3/3 trampler seems pretty good and also tin-street holligan seems better then zealot and shaman except for the fact he has a one toughness ass.
Scab Clan Mauler is a good card, but not here, because his ability is too conditional in a deck with only 8 direct damage spells.

Tin Street Hooligan is nice and all, but he only answers artifacts, and your biggest problems by far are enchantments like Parallax Wave, Astral Slide, Moat, Worship, etc.

Anusien

02-20-2006, 10:32 PM

When I used to play Culling Scales in Mirrodin/Kami T2 I found Culling Scales to be bad against decks with Moxen like Angel Stompy because it takes several turns before it becomes relevant. I'd rather Cursed Scroll because it also teams up with Bolt to take down Angel, and goes to the dome in a pinch.

Zealot seems iffy, I'd always been so afraid of using him because in matchups where I needed him as a Naturalize, it cost 4, and I was worried about running him into a blocker and him dying, then needing the Naturalize. It's still a viable option, but I'd be careful about treating him like a real attacker.

Did you ever find Iwamori's drawback relevant? The only thing they could throw down is Kiki-Jiki or Isamaru, but KJ might be a threat (theoretically you might see Braids, Rofellos or Hokori, but don't count on it). The main issue I see in that slot is that Rumbling Slum doesn't trample. Did you consider Skarg, Rage Pits in order to give your Jitted guys and Rumbling Slum trample? Or even Gruul War Plow which gives you virtual immunity to Wrath of God a la Chimeric Idol.

Bane of the Living

02-21-2006, 12:22 AM

Did you ever find Iwamori's drawback relevant? The only thing they could throw down is Kiki-Jiki or Isamaru, but KJ might be a threat (theoretically you might see Braids, Rofellos or Hokori, but don't count on it). The main issue I see in that slot is that Rumbling Slum doesn't trample. Did you consider Skarg, Rage Pits in order to give your Jitted guys and Rumbling Slum trample? Or even Gruul War Plow which gives you virtual immunity to Wrath of God a la Chimeric Idol.

War Plow gives you alittle breathing room from Humility as well. Even tho you have Rancor and Jitte.

Zilla

02-21-2006, 05:55 AM

Rancor sort of obviates the need for Rage Pits. Along with Jitte, it also strongly lessens the impact of Humility. As for the Slum vs. Iwamori debat, I'm heaviliy inclined to opt for Iwamori in the slot because of the trample, the fact that it's not red, and that its drawback is minimal. The main thing is that the extra point per turn from Slum did matter in testing. In a pinch, it allowed for the possibility to sit back and let it deal the last few pouints of damage when locked up in a stalemate on the ground. Then again, trample goes a long way in that regard as well, so Iwamori may get the nod anyway. More testing is necessary to know for certain.

Anusien

02-21-2006, 11:11 AM

Or even Gruul War Plow which gives you virtual immunity to Wrath of God a la Chimeric Idol.
I'm sort of growing to like this idea, although it would probably end up having to steal its slots away from Rancor and Jitte. It IS a creature though, as well as making all your dudes trample, which seems randomly good at time.

Zilla

02-21-2006, 05:09 PM

I'm sort of growing to like this idea, although it would probably end up having to steal its slots away from Rancor and Jitte. It IS a creature though, as well as making all your dudes trample, which seems randomly good at time.
It's a pretty hefty mana investment, but it could improve the Rifter matchup, as well as providing another non-red threat against Silver Knight, so I guess it deserves testing. I'm immediately wary of dropping Jittes for any reason, however. They are largely responsible for your extremely positive matchup against Goblins, and are one of the few tools you have in the Burn matchup.

Anusien

02-21-2006, 05:48 PM

War-Plow (who can barely get equipped/enchanted) hurts with BTS too, but I'm wondering if he's actually any better than if he were generic; does his ability hurt any non-Tog opponents?

You could theoretically replace some creatures with War-Plow, of course you could also cut the creature base for Hidden creatures and Scryb Sprites. Maybe consider the War-Plow for the sideboard?

N.B.: Gruul War Plow gives your creatures trample under Humility, but if you animate him, they lose Trample. This might be relevant with Jitte facing down soldier tokens. However, if you animate the War Plow under Humility, it's a 4/4 (without trample).

Zilla

02-21-2006, 06:23 PM

BTS is a good all around inclusion for a few reasons... in a given game, he'll always cause at least 1-2 points of damage to your opponent though incidental means, be it using a fetchland or saccing a Fanatic. That extra couple points of damage can be highly relevant in sealing games, as a great many of them in testing ended with the ability to deal exactly or near-exactly the amount of damage necessary before the opponent might have a chance to recover.

More importantly, though, he's a 3/4 beater for 3. That's really what it comes down to, and makes him worth inclusion. He kills Goblins and Mongeese and Watchwolves and lives to tell about it, and without a mana investment for regeneration. That's what makes him such a strong inclusion.

Bongo

02-23-2006, 09:08 PM

As for the Slum vs. Iwamori debat, I'm heaviliy inclined to opt for Iwamori in the slot because of the trample, the fact that it's not red, and that its drawback is minimal.

If you are running Iwamori over Slum right now, how did the matchup against Goblins change?
Kiki-Jiki on the other side of the table is dangerous and might lead to a worse Goblin matchup. Or is it still very favorable?

Amon Amarth

02-23-2006, 11:09 PM

If you are running Iwamori over Slum right now, how did the matchup against Goblins change?
Kiki-Jiki on the other side of the table is dangerous and might lead to a worse Goblin matchup. Or is it still very favorable?

Since Kiki-Jiki is ran as a 1-of I would not think it would impact the results in any meaningful way.

Zilla

02-23-2006, 11:21 PM

Since Kiki-Jiki is ran as a 1-of I would not think it would impact the results in any meaningful way.
This is accurate. It's an occasional risk, of course, but you have 8 removal spells for it, and whatever they can do with it, they still need to answer a 5/5 trampler, which isn't particularly easy for them.

Bongo

02-24-2006, 07:14 AM

Since Kiki-Jiki is ran as a 1-of I would not think it would impact the results in any meaningful way.

I think you are forgetting Goblin Matron.
Especially in conjunction with Aether Vial, the chance that a Goblin player drops KJ is higher than the chance of just drawing the single copy.
A clever Goblin opponent may also fetch KJ preemptively with Matron in games 2&3.

While a 5/5 trampler is hard to handle for Goblins, it is not impossible. I have seen some pretty sick stuff with an active KJ.

Have you tested the Goblin match with the Iwamori-version extensively?

Mulletus

02-24-2006, 11:10 AM

Amon Amarth

02-24-2006, 11:57 AM

I think you are forgetting Goblin Matron.
Especially in conjunction with Aether Vial, the chance that a Goblin player drops KJ is higher than the chance of just drawing the single copy.
A clever Goblin opponent may also fetch KJ preemptively with Matron in games 2&3.

While a 5/5 trampler is hard to handle for Goblins, it is not impossible. I have seen some pretty sick stuff with an active KJ.

Have you tested the Goblin match with the Iwamori-version extensively?

Goblin Matron is a moot point if Iwamori, of Face Smashage comes into play on your 2nd, or 3rd turn (if your going first). I would never tutor up a Kiki-Jiki just because you might drop a Iwamori.

It sounds like you are giving in to The Fear. Sure an active Kiki-Jiki is bad for you, but they are rarely going to have it, if at all. I am not running him, and I know other players aren't either.

Alfred

02-24-2006, 02:18 PM

Actually, I see 10 spots devoted to mana acceleration.

Slay

02-24-2006, 02:31 PM

I believe the term was 'janky', as in ESG.

And your list absolutely gets reamed by Lackey. Remorselessly. If they get a Fanatic or Incinerator, you can't stop them turns 1-3(if they're going first). After that, good luck trying to stem the bleeding. There's a reason why 'janky burn' is in there.
-Slay

kirdape3

02-24-2006, 06:18 PM

Is there a reason that you're playing creatures all the way up the curve until four mana? Moldervine Cloak exists now and is really rude, plus it costs less mana than the huge creatures do and is itself a great deal more survivable. I'm not terribly impressed with creatures like Iwamori and Rumbling Slum just because they cost so much mana - by that point it could very well be too late and they aren't nearly big enough. As it is I'm not sure that Ascetic is good enough.

Zilla

02-24-2006, 08:19 PM

As a red green player, I like the idea of a non-Survival build. I am really surprized that FTK hasen't made it's way into the sideboard, at least as an option. I realize you have bolt, jet, and jitte... but they don't attack. It appears that tempo will play a major role in this deck. A clear path for beaters (rancored or not) may be more than just a 'win more' scenario.... it could be essential. I would even consder that Portal mini-FTK (Flame Imp or something) for a creature heavy meta.
Aggro matchups are already extremely positive for you, with the exceptions of Burn and Angel Stompy. FTK is trash in both of these matchups. I think it's wiser to dedicate the board to beating your bad matchups, not improving your good ones.

Is there a reason that you're playing creatures all the way up the curve until four mana? Moldervine Cloak exists now and is really rude, plus it costs less mana than the huge creatures do and is itself a great deal more survivable.
Iwamori and Slum typically hit play turn 3. They are also absolutely essential to your game against Goblins and Thresh. You beat them because your creatures are bigger than theirs. Drop the big creatures and you go without the main reasons you beat these matchups in the first place. As for Moldervine Cloak, you're already running 8 creature upgrades. You're suggesting dropping 4 creatures to add 4 more? that leaves you with a creature to enhancement ratio of 20 to 12. Spot removal gets very, very good against you. You will constantly have dead creature enhancements in hand. It can't work. You could replace Rancor or Jitte with Cloak, but they're both almost strictly better. SoFI is better too.

The bottom line is that your fat creatures are your greatest asset against the most prominent matchups in the format. Your ability to play a constant stream of attackers is also very important. Investing all your resources into a single creature will inevitably weaken your overall game because there are less actual threats for your opponent to deal with.

I kind of agree. Troll seems worlds better than either 4cc dude. Troll can come down turn 2 and get rancored swing fast fast fast. He also cant be swordzd, and has the nifty ability to.. well just stay alive. Besides, lowering the curve is always nice.
The deck already runs Trolls.

kirdape3

02-24-2006, 08:54 PM

Jolfer

02-24-2006, 09:13 PM

Bane of the Living

02-24-2006, 09:41 PM

Sorry, dont know how I missed that.

Ok.. I shuffled the deck up and got some pretty sick hands, but I still felt like I wanted the 4c's to be other guys. How bad is your burn matchup exactly? Is it bad enough to make the Iwamaris into Baloth? Hes green so he still eats angel stompy.

Iwamori..
Trample, Green

Slum..
Upkeep damage

Baloth..
4 Life, Green

Zilla

02-24-2006, 10:02 PM

No, I'd cut Jitte like the standard decks do. And probably Rancor as well. You only need one set, and right now I consider Cloak to be the best of them. Jitte itself is awfully slow (although fairly good against decks that can't kill the creature in response or before damage), and while Rancor's pretty insane, I'd rather make a creature less susceptible to actually dying.
Jitte is quite possibly the strongest card in this deck. It is largely responsible for your overwhelmingly strong Goblins matchup. It's your sole savior in the burn matchup. It utterly wrecks weenie strategies. I can't see dropping it. The creatures themselves are already very survivable. Part of the deck's strength int he current format is that Bolts and Pyroclasms have very little effect against your forces already. The removal you really have to worry about is StP and Wrath of God, where Cloak won't raise your threats' survivability in the slightest. In fact, it makes StP even better by severely impacting your tempo in response to casting Cloak.

I'm aiming at a Richmond Gun style (extremely low curve) rather than the midrange deck you're advocating. The same deck that can reliably kill a stream of x/3s is going to have no problems tagging x/5s (anything with Wrath or Plow) - such that I'd rather have my x/3s costing 1 and 2 mana rather than a bunch of x/5s costing fully four.
This hasn't been my experience. Goblins, for example, isn't that concerned with x/3's. Gempalm is of use here. Fanatic at a chump blocker makes for a trade. Their ability to cope with a creature with an ass end of 5 or above is much less consistent. They almost always have to trade 3 for 1 against them, and that's why they win games. That they can go toe to toe with a Mongoose or Werebear and stick around is also of extreme relevance.

I have tested R/G, R/G/W, and other variants against Threshold (maindecking Worship even, how ungood for this deck), Goblins, and most of the major archetypes. I'm not convinced in the slightest that midrange R/G offers something that the smaller decks don't - in fact, midrange R/G is still probably the best at some form of Red Zone variant. Are these decks good? Yes. Is there a particularly good reason to play threats that cost four mana that aren't really more survivable than ones that cost half as much? That question is for everyone playing it to decide.
I've done a lot of testing with weenie aggro, including RDW, R/G Sligh, BDW, Zoo, Flame Sermon, and R/G/W Aggro. While they're all a bit faster than Zilla Stompy, none of them have had as consistent a game against both Thresh and Goblins as this one has had for me. Furthermore, the midgame aggro tends to have quite an advantage against the weenie aggro, as illustrated in the matchups section. (BDW is an exception solely because of Silver Knight.)

These are the reasons I advocate the deck for this metagame. It's not strictly superior to faster, lower curved decks. It just has an advantage in the current metagame.

Boogy_Boy

02-25-2006, 03:41 AM

I remember u guys saying that AS was a problematic matchup.

So, have you considered Mirri, Cat Warrior?

First of all, it will stop Silver Knight very well. If you opponent has a silver knight out, you can attack with Mirri all day, and the silver knight still can't do a thing.

Against Gro, she'll be guaranteed damage per turn due to forest walk.

Against Goblins, she can block piledriver (which is something BTS can't do), and then it takes just as much goblins to block to kill her. BTS need 2+ goblins to block, Mirri actually needs 3+.

the only problem is... it dies to lightning bolt. But then, against decks that pack burn as removals, Troll pretty much has it covered right?

Voice

02-25-2006, 04:18 AM

Yesterday evening I played 10 games against Rifter. I won 8-2.

RG ZILLA stompy is a very potent deck. I played with Iwamori and he is extremely powerful. A turn three 5/5 trampler with no drawback is very intimidating for the other side of the table.

I believed that SOFI was better in this deck than Jitte due to BTS and the legendary status of Jitte but there were many times where I had a rancored troll and another creature and four mana to spend (with a SOFI in my hand).
So the reason that Jitte can be played sooner is THE reason to play it instead of SOFI.

I sided in Tranquil Domain against the many enchantmants. It worked. I haven't tried Winter Orb.

I am very anxious to see how the deck plays against other decks.

Zilla

02-25-2006, 06:34 AM

So, have you considered Mirri, Cat Warrior?

First of all, it will stop Silver Knight very well. If you opponent has a silver knight out, you can attack with Mirri all day, and the silver knight still can't do a thing.
Silver Knight has first strike too. They kill each other off. Your 3c slot is already jam-packed with BTS and Troll. If you're really concerned with Silver Knight, Call of the Herd is going to be a better call, I should think.

I believed that SOFI was better in this deck than Jitte due to BTS and the legendary status of Jitte but there were many times where I had a rancored troll and another creature and four mana to spend (with a SOFI in my hand).
So the reason that Jitte can be played sooner is THE reason to play it instead of SOFI.
QFT. SoFI costs you a full turn more than Jitte in almost every game you'll see it in. Despite the relatively high mana curve for an aggressive strategy, the deck thrives on speed. It simply can't afford to be giving up a full turn.

I understand that many are concerned with the apparent lack of synergy between BTS and Jitte. All I can say is, try it yourself; you'll see that it's rarely an issue. In most cases, an active Jitte means you're winning the game, BTS or no. In theory you could run Call of the Herd in the BTS slot, but I think that's likely to hurt your Goblins and Thresh matchups more than is warranted.

Jaynel

02-25-2006, 10:00 AM

@GodzillA: Mirri is a 2/3. She can swing into Silver Knights all day long without trading with them. However, you're right. 8 three drops is enough for a deck like this. Maybe she can be considered as svg tech in the board for the Angel Stompy matchup?

Has anyone been running into consistancy issues with the deck? Often I've had to throw away 4 or 5 land lands because they've simply had no business (stuff like Forest, Wooded Foothills, Wooded Foothills, Taiga, Rancor, Bolt, Jitte), and my new hand is the same, if not worse. Yet the deck also has amazing draws that basically end the game on turn 3 because you have a Troll with an active Jitte.

It might just be MWS acting funny, but I'd like to get some input and see if anyone else is having this problem. I love this deck, and I it'd be great to see this busted out and win some events.

Bane of the Living

02-25-2006, 12:47 PM

So has anyone tried Ravenous Baloth instead of Iwamori or Slum? I got around to trying him out, he's not as powerful as the other two but your bad matchups get better because of him. Even the closer games with goblins become less so since you have an extra 4 life per baloth. Jitte cant always be relied on for your problems since they can use removal on your equiped man, pithing needle jitte, blow it up, or with AS play their own. Baloth gave me precious life againt burn when my opponent burnt the critters I tried to equip. Try it out.

kirdape3

02-25-2006, 01:03 PM

Baloth just doesn't have the front end that the other options do. Sure, if you sacrifice him you gain 4 life, but it's not as fast of a clock as the 5 power guys (obviously, but that matters). If you wanted to play a heavy life-gaining creature, splash white for Hierarch. Baloth isn't as good as the options in red and green.

Bane of the Living

02-25-2006, 01:22 PM

I donno, trading -1/-1 for 4 life sounds good to me. He's also green, not red, which helps adress the AS problem. Lox needs white and I dont think its worth taxing the mana base. Rumbling Slum is just bad against goblins AND thresh compared to Baloth. And it pretty much is as fast a clock btw. My 4cc guy usually swings twice before I either lose or win the game. Thats only a 2 life difference in a deck with 20 something creatures, burn, and creature pumpers. Besides, I've lost a few games thanks to BTS/Jitte. I know the benifits outweigh the costs, so I continue to play both. But in my testing with Baloth he also helped adress that problem as it came up.

Obfuscate Freely

02-25-2006, 02:53 PM

I donno, trading -1/-1 for 4 life sounds good to me.
You're simply wrong. In this sort of deck, Iwamori's +1/+1 and trample each outweigh Baloth's ability on their own.

Zilla

02-25-2006, 03:42 PM

@GodzillA: Mirri is a 2/3. She can swing into Silver Knights all day long without trading with them. However, you're right. 8 three drops is enough for a deck like this. Maybe she can be considered as svg tech in the board for the Angel Stompy matchup?
Wow. That's what I get for posting tired. I even looked her up to double-check and still thought she was a 2/2. Strange. In any case, as far as savage anti-Angel Stompy tech goes, I don't think she's warranted. Like I said, if you're looking for another creature that answers Silver Knight, Call of the Herd is an option. If you're looking for something that shores up both the Burn and the Angel Stompy matchups, Ravenous Baloth is a good sideboard choice. Simply bring them in over the Trolls, which are bad against Silver Knight and die to Flamebreak.

It might just be MWS acting funny, but I'd like to get some input and see if anyone else is having this problem. I love this deck, and I it'd be great to see this busted out and win some events
It's absolutely MWS. The coding for its shuffler is absolute trash. Everybody that uses it regularly will agree. It's a decent tool for online testing and goldfishing, but you can't trust it statistically, particularly as far as land distribution is concerned. If you can, proxy it up in real life, pile shuffle it, and get a feel for the land distribution that way. Also, remember to use Magma Jet aggressively to smooth your draws. Against everything but Goblins, I almost never hold it back in anticipation of threats; I use it as soon as I can to get past dead draws.

I donno, trading -1/-1 for 4 life sounds good to me.
You're simply wrong. In this sort of deck, Iwamori's +1/+1 and trample each outweigh Baloth's ability on their own.
Quoted for absolute truth. You win your aggro and aggro-control matchups by being bigger than the other guy. The extra 1/1 makes a huge difference. It's the difference between trading with a threshed Werebear and getting to keep your guy. It's the difference between trading with 3 Goblins instead of two. It's the difference between surviving Bolt + Fanatic and not. It's the difference between a 4 turn clock and a 5 turn clock. That paltry extra 1/1 wins games.

And I did test Baloth in this slot quite extensively, by the way. I also tested a GW Build with Heirarch, StP, Isamaru, and Watchwolf in place of Slum, Bolt, Ape, Jet. In nearly all cases, the deck performed much less aggressively, and had significantly lower numbers against Goblins and Thresh. The 5/5 slot is absolutely immutable.

Bongo

02-25-2006, 03:48 PM

Goblin Matron is a moot point if Iwamori, of Face Smashage comes into play on your 2nd, or 3rd turn (if your going first). I would never tutor up a Kiki-Jiki just because you might drop a Iwamori.

It sounds like you are giving in to The Fear. Sure an active Kiki-Jiki is bad for you, but they are rarely going to have it, if at all. I am not running him, and I know other players aren't either.

I am running KJ. Together with 4 Matrons, I have 5 virtual copies of KJ, so I wouldn't say I "rarely" have it.
And I will tutor up KJ when I know my opponent is playing with Iwamori. Unless you immediately burn off all the other Goblins, KJ will do some pretty sick stuff. Especially because KJ comes into play on the opponents turn and the copies from KJ survive till my turn. If you leave KJ and other Goblins unchecked, it will generate such an advantage that even Zilla Stompy will have a hard time.

Iwamori almost never comes into play on the second turn. This is because Llanowar Elves get burned by Fanatic/Incinerator, or you're forced to block Lackey (if you don't have burn). If the Zilla Stompy player has a good hand, the average Iwamori turns are 3-4. Any later than that and you give me as a Goblin player a lot of time to search out KJ.

This is not giving into The Fear. This is careful planning. I'm also heavily leaning towards running Iwamori, so we're on the same page here. I just want to make sure it doesn't make a good matchup worse.

@all: Who has actually tested the Iwamori-version against Goblins?

Bane of the Living

02-25-2006, 04:02 PM

How does Iwamori survive Fanatic + Bolt??

Well as long as you tested Baloth I'll take your word for it. I seem to be getting better results with him than you.

Yea I did forget to mention that Baloth wont let my opponent get a free KJ..
Yes this does happen. Sadly and strangely.

Oh and how bad would it suck when your zilla stompy mirror drops his for some good ol legend rule removal? jk.

Artowis

02-25-2006, 04:22 PM

How does Iwamori survive Fanatic + Bolt??
.

I assume he means fanatic ping + Bolt. So yeah, 5/5 trumps 4 damage.

@Bongo

Why the hell is everyone so scared of KJ exactly with this deck? Goblins can't race this deck unless it gets an extremely good swarm draw to begin with. I much rather be fetching removal, SGC or Warchief than just hoping and praying they play an Iwamori and I get to -try- to ruin them if I have anything left w/ KJ.

Oh and KJ is a 2/2? And this deck runs burn you say? Damn. Painful. In all seriousness, KJ's usefulness is directly dependent on what other good Goblins you have in play. If the opponent has a removal spell for either Matron (so you can't copy) or KJ, the jig is up.

Bane of the Living

02-25-2006, 04:32 PM

Voice

02-25-2006, 04:35 PM

Zilla quote: Wow. That's what I get for posting tired. I even looked her up to double-check and still thought she was a 2/2. Strange. In any case, as far as savage anti-Angel Stompy tech goes, I don't think she's warranted. Like I said, if you're looking for another creature that answers Silver Knight, Call of the Herd is an option. If you're looking for something that shores up both the Burn and the Angel Stompy matchups, Ravenous Baloth is a good sideboard choice. Simply bring them in over the Trolls, which are bad against Silver Knight and die to Flamebreak.

Don't worry even Wizards doesn't know the p/t and rarity of Mirri, Cat Warrior.
A few years back they made the infamous Anthologies set with like a bazillion misprints in it. They made Mirri a common 2/2.

@all the Iwamoriphobes. Iwamori is the best creature at four mana at this point in time. There are a number of creatures that could take its place but only when you play against certain decks. Sideboarding Baloth is a good idea. I had two in my board but i didn't need it against Rifter.

PS An iwamori also survives a Slice and Dice.

Cool deck!

Zilla

02-25-2006, 05:31 PM

Iwamori almost never comes into play on the second turn. This is because Llanowar Elves get burned by Fanatic/Incinerator, or you're forced to block Lackey (if you don't have burn). If the Zilla Stompy player has a good hand, the average Iwamori turns are 3-4. Any later than that and you give me as a Goblin player a lot of time to search out KJ.

@all: Who has actually tested the Iwamori-version against Goblins?
You have time to search out the Jeek. I don't dispute this. It ignores some important aspects of play, however. If you Matron KJ before Iwamori, your opponent will be fully aware of it. It's not particularly difficult to simply play other threats instead, waiting until your board position and/or hand makes it advantageous to make this this tradeoff. An active Jitte, or even a well placed Bolt can largely reduce KJ's impact on the game state. And I don't necessarily mean removing KJ; I mean removing his target. KJ is only as good as the creatures he can copy. Remove Matron or Ringleader in response to KJ's ability and he's often not that big a threat at all. Note, by the way, that I'm not speaking conjecturally; this is based on testing.

It's also important to note that if you're fetching KJ with Matron, you're not fetching a Warchief or a Piledriver or a Pyromancer or a Gempalm or whatever else might benefit you more. You're searching for a creature that your opponent must allow you to play. If you have the mana or Vial counters to hardcast him, then this discussion is moot anyhow. Consider how often an early Warchief is integral to Goblins' board development. Consider also how often you fetch Warchief with Matron to accellerate your development. Fetching KJ at the cost of board development, simply because you're afraid I might be holding Iwamori? That seems like an advantage to me, not a drawback.

With all that said, I'm not going to lie - I haven't tested Iwamori extensively against Goblins. I have tested it some, and it wasn't a problem at all in those few games, but it's not to say that it might not be in some cases. I've said repeatedly that Iwamori needs more testing. The decklist in the beginning of this thread has Slum in the maindeck, not Iwamori. The vast majority of testing was done with Slum. I think that against many decks, Iwamori may be the better call, but against Goblins Slum may be better. When I have the opportunity to test it I will, and I'll let you know. Feel free to test it yourself and let us know what the results are as well.

If this deck has such a good game against goblins why does it have to run this COCK block jank? If your bad matches are burn and AS play friggen Baloth. I dont understand why everyone is so thickheaded about that.
Because Baloth weakens EVERY other matchup. I said I'd tested it extensively, and I wasn't lying about that. I don't mean to Disenchant your Aura of Hypocrisy, but have you considered testing the deck before suggesting changes? Just a thought.

Amon Amarth

02-25-2006, 06:02 PM

Ok mister Legacy Adept. Your going to burn all my men down then drop Iwamori and bolt my KJ? Ill have two copies of warcheif/ringleader/matron by next turn for sure. Infact KJ is probably a card I would fetch against this deck whether or not I know your playing Iwamori. His card advantages are probably the only thing that would grab you the game.

And fanatic will never block your 5/5 I suppose? Sure you get your trample damage. Congratulations 5 ass. But hey its not like they play 2 power creatures or gempalms right? Me? Ill take 4 life and stay alive a turn longer to win the game.

If this deck has such a good game against goblins why does it have to run this COCK block jank? If your bad matches are burn and AS play friggen Baloth. I dont understand why everyone is so thickheaded about that.

Maybe you could test him. Its pretty easy, just open the deck editor.

Dont start the "if you do this ill just do this and win gg noob" arguements. They are not good examples of how games really play out.

I would not fetch Kiki-Jiki against this deck. I would go for Warchief. Tempo is super important in this matchup. Expensive, vulnerable creatures that you won't be able to play anytime soon, unless they drop an Iwamori, are not good.

Iwamori is far and away better than Baloth. The fact that he is bigger means your opponent has to invest more resources into dealing with him. Trample is so damn good vs stupid weenies decks. Baloths life gain is hardly a bonus. Goblins can deal with the extra 4 life fairly easily.

We do not need to test Baloth because he is strictly inferior to Iwamori in this deck. Iwamori is not jank, he is a house. This deck has a good game against Goblins because it runs beats like Iwamori.

Sims

02-25-2006, 06:11 PM

This is going to sound elitist...but whatever.

If you are dumb enough to pass up fetching a Warchief, Ringleader, Piledriver, Pyromancer, or Gempalm for some "cool trick" shit like a KJ and follow that play by hoping they use their Iwamori.... Quit magic.

KJ is a house against any deck he touches the field against if and only if he has targets. Against this deck you will be forced to make many trades, and make them early, so that you are spending 5 mana or a vial on 5 to cast a Goblin Chariot. GG.

Oh, and yes, this is based on testing.

Also: If a bad matchup is Burn, the Baloths you are advocating so immensely can be put into the sideboard specifically for that matchup. But, again, that matchup is a very miniscule portion of the percieved metagame. If you see a lot of burn, Board the 'loth... But don't weaken your strong matchups in Gro/Goblins by maindecking your burn hate.....Burn isn't even that popular of a deck....

Watcher487

02-25-2006, 08:40 PM

Guys, why are you really even discussing this?? Probably the only time that this would be a problem is if your opponent has a Vial set at 3 or 4 and that happens how many times when your pumping out Iwamori out on turn 2 and 3?

Now don't get me wrong here 'Zilla, I do like the deck. I just like playing Survival variants better.

Zilla

02-25-2006, 09:18 PM

Now don't get me wrong here 'Zilla, I do like the deck. I just like playing Survival variants better.
I can dig it. In a lot of ways it's a metagame call. Zompy's biggest advantage over Survival is its overwhelmingly positive Goblins matchup. If Goblins isn't a major metagame concern, then RGSA may be a better choice in your area.

Vardaman

02-25-2006, 11:33 PM

I'd definately go with two Mirri, two Burning Tree Shaman and Iwamori over Rumbling Slum. Iwamori is a total house. Slum gets chump blocked all day long but I guess Rancor overcomes that. I still think Iwamori is much better than slum most of the time.

Baloth just doesn't cut it in this deck. He's amazing in Survival decks but this is not that.

Mirri is tech against goblins and any green aggro deck. First strike + vigilance + forest-walk + equipment is just fine.

Zilla

02-26-2006, 03:19 AM

Mirri is tech against goblins and any green aggro deck. First strike + vigilance + forest-walk + equipment is just fine.
BTS is strictly superior to Mirri in the combo, control, and Burn matchups, which are difficult matchups already. Goblins, on the other hand, is already extremely favorable. Mirri is significantly easier to remove with a Gempalm than BTS is as well. The only place where Mirri is significantly advantageous is against Silver Knight, and that's assuming it's not a deck like BDW that's packing Bolts. In short, we're discussing a lot of changes to improve the Angel Stompy matchup without giving due consideration to the deck's other problem matchups.

I'll give Mirri some testing, but I do have some serious doubts about changes to the deck which address only one matchup at the expense of several others.

Bongo

02-26-2006, 10:03 AM

OK, I don't know exactly if a few posts were directed at me, but I'd like to make some things clear.

First, read my posts:

I'm also heavily leaning towards running Iwamori, so we're on the same page here. I just want to make sure it doesn't make a good matchup worse.

You have no reason to be offensive and post some fucking elitist bullshit here. I'm only voicing some concerns and those concerns are justified.

Second, in the (very limited) testing, Goblin has won a few games where KJ was involved, albeit it's still overwhelmingly favorable for Zilla Stompy. For emphasis, read this part once more, so there are no misunderstandings.

While it is only marginal, Iwamori provides another way besides Lackey and Vial to get KJ into play. I also didn't need to tutor up KJ everytime, there are instances where you ringlead into one or simply hold one already.
I'm not that dumb that I blindly tutor into KJ everytime. Every competent Goblin player will develop his board position first. You have to take into account that sometimes you have a "spare" Matron because you're already holding Warchief, Gempalm or any important Goblin. Or you have a second Matron in hand, which also happened.

Also, to directly burn out KJ after dropping Iwamori, you need to have 2GGR or 3GGR on the table. Barring a god-draw, that won't happen before turn 4.
In the other case where you preemptively burn out the other Goblins in anticipation of KJ, that still takes time and mana and thus gives the Goblin player more time. Often, it is not easy to take out every single Goblin, because you only have 8 direct damage spells.

The few wins for Goblins were when Iwamori was dropped on turn 4 or later with no immediate burn. In that case, that gave me 3 disruption-free turns (opponents turn, my turn, opponents turn) with KJ and turned an otherwise unwinnable game around.

However, there were also many games where Iwamori was dropped on turn 4-6 and I didn't have KJ or the luxury of searching for it.

To sum this up: Iwamori is good enough to run even if it's slightly worse than Slum in the Goblin match-up. Just be careful as a Zilla Stompy player.

Zilla

02-26-2006, 03:27 PM

OK, I don't know exactly if a few posts were directed at me, but I'd like to make some things clear...
Relax. I think most were in reference to this post (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=63176&postcount=58), which was in itself rather combative.

In any case, we essentially agree. Iwamori can very occasionally be a liability, but you have the ability to play carefully against Goblins; roughly half the time (be it Ringleader, or Matron), you will know they've got it and be able to play accordingly. Overall, it doesn't appear to be impacting the Goblins matchup in any significant way, aside from being as good as or better than Slum in the instances where they don't have Jeek.

Hoojo

02-28-2006, 10:44 AM

I've been playing this deck for a while online, and I have to say I like Iwamori much better, though, his drawback did drop a Kokusho from a janky Rock build. Despite that, I still won due to Iwamori being a 5/5 trampler, which forced my opponent to block with the Kokusho to keep from dying to the trample damage.

Unfortunately, I haven't run into any Goblin builds online, so I can't confirm if Iwamori makes this matchup any worse, but I can't imagine it doing so, and despite Rumbling Slum's extra point of damage each turn, I think Iwamori works out much better with saving your Rancors for your other creatures. 3/1 trampling Llanowar Elf ftw!

Bane of the Living

03-01-2006, 05:25 PM

This past sunday zilla stompy beat me 2wice. I got paired down against the guy playing it then faced him again in the top 4. I lost both games mostly thanks to BTS. I was playing Salvager Game. BTS really hurts the bomberman.

tivadar

03-06-2006, 02:57 PM

Zilla

03-06-2006, 04:53 PM

Just a quick question, why play this deck instead of play Angel Stompy? This is an honest question, and I'm sure there are at least a couple answers. Clearly both this and AS rock against gobbo, are good against thresh, and are weak to combo such as solidarity/rift, but this deck has an unfavorable matchup against AS itself... Granted, the odds of these decks facing each other in the current meta are pretty slim, just wondering if/what are the matches where this deck outshines AS?
This is actually a very astute question, and it's not easy to answer. In my experience, while both AS and Zompy have a strong game against Goblins, Zompy's is the stronger of the two. This is due partially to the fact that it has more (read: faster) spot removal, but also that most of its creatures, even when unequipped, force 2 or 3-for-1 trades with Goblins, where many of Angel Stompy's do not. Furthermore, Zompy's manabase is less vulnerable to disruption, and is more stable overall.

With that said, I've been working on AS a bit lately, working to stabilize the manabase without sacrificing speed, and that's coming along well, so it's hard to say which deck has the bigger advantage against Goblins.

Next, while both Zompy and AS have been positive against Thresh in my testing, Zompy has tended to be more positive, again because its creatures, even unequipped can live through combat with Thresh's creatures, where many of AS's cannot. Then again, StP and Parallax Wave are certainly better removal options in this matchup, so it's sort of a tossup. Zompy has better sideboard options against Thresh with Pillar to back up Crypt, but in the end, this, too, may not be too relevant.

This is a relevant point against combo as well: Zompy has more faster options against combo, particularly REB and Pillar. That said, that's another issue I've been exploring with Angel Stompy's sideboard, so it's possible that this point will also become moot.

Lastly, and probably the most relevant answer I can provide: Zompy's fundamental turn is somewhere around a half to a full turn faster than Angel Stompy's. This makes it stronger in general against combo and control than Angel Stompy, but not by a lot. What Angel Stompy loses in speed, it gains in versatility and an ability to beat random aggro more consistently. Bombs like Angel, SoFI, and Parallax Wave slow the deck down a bit, but give it an overwhelming advantage in aggro matchups.

In the end, I think it's going to come down to a metagame call. In a purely aggro metagame, or one comprised very largely of red cards, or of WW/BDW style decks, I wouldn't hesitate to play Angel Stompy over Zilla Stompy. In a metagame without much Burn, WW/BDW, but a a lot of Goblins and a more general mix of archetypes, I might choose to go with Zompy.

tivadar

03-07-2006, 11:24 AM

I'll have to say that AS's matchup against gobbo is so good, that I think it's a moot point of which deck to play, a win is a win... Also, though this deck pulls more cards from the gobbo player, AS has the pro-red creatures, and also tivadar's crusade. The argument above can also be used for the UGr thresh decks out there.

Against UGw decks though, their removal works equally well against both decks. Perhaps the extra speed and the ability of a single creature to face down the werebear or goose is what pushes this deck above gro in that matchup. I'm willing to admit that if UGw Thresh is played a lot in your environ, this deck may be the way to go.

As for the combo matchup, I think it's fairly safe to say both are rather bad. I'm tempted to say horrendous, but that may be overstating things. This deck can at least board REB in, and hope for the quick kill. AS tends to play true believer (somewhat ineffective) or rule of law (much more efficient, but doesn't kill your opponent). I think it's safe to say if combo is big in your environment, neither of these decks should be played.

One thing I have noticed, however, is that the creature/boost ratio seems a bit low. Perhaps this is compensated by the fact that individual threats are harder to remove, but I'm not entirely convinced of this. For example, the mainpage list has 4 Rancor + 4 Jitte = 8 boosts, and runs 16 threats + ~8 mana souce/threats. Typically angel stompy runs a 4/1 ratio. Does this deck get into many situations where it has boosts but no creatures? I know it's been talked about a bit, but what sort of testing has been done? Especially once you get to talking about Gro, which can counter/remove your creatures and basically ignore your boosts.

Vimes

03-07-2006, 05:04 PM

tivadar

03-08-2006, 12:43 PM

Does 4 copies of anarchy in the board solve the Angel Stompy matchup if I'm willing to devote that much space? By solve, I mean: go 50/50. Angel Stompy recently won a tournament on magic-league.com, and people will probably start playing it. I would rather not give up Zompy, but if it's a hopeless cause, I will.

As an AS Player, I'm going to say no. Anarchy slows you down a lot, though it will help against the silver knights. The fact is though, that if we get a knight out, we don't need another creature against you:

4 Llanowar Elves - First Strike
4 Elvish Spirit Guide - First Strike
4 Kird Ape - Pro Red
4 Burning-Tree Shaman - Pro Red
4 Troll Ascetic - First Strike
4 Rumbling Slum - Pro Red

All your removal is red, so with 1 knight out, you can't get counters on your jitte unless you play rancor as well on the creature, and then we can typically wait for you to cast rancor and swords the creature. Anarchy is a 1 for 1 trade that makes you devote 4 mana, and just isn't worth it.

I know I've ran into someone boarding anarchy in a gobbo deck. He played 2 one game and it didn't hurt at all. I splash blue, so Bleb could take care of it. Honestly, the card we're most scared of is Iwamori, as it can power through a knight and get counters on that jitte...

Vimes

03-08-2006, 02:40 PM

I do play Iwamori over Rumbling Slum. I forget why I made that decision, but it's worked out pretty well. Does it make a serious difference against mono white Angel Stompy? The Angel Stompy IS going to be mono white. A mono white AS build won a trial, so that's what will be played on www.magic-league.com.

Zilla

03-08-2006, 03:40 PM

One thing I have noticed, however, is that the creature/boost ratio seems a bit low. Perhaps this is compensated by the fact that individual threats are harder to remove, but I'm not entirely convinced of this. For example, the mainpage list has 4 Rancor + 4 Jitte = 8 boosts, and runs 16 threats + ~8 mana souce/threats. Typically angel stompy runs a 4/1 ratio. Does this deck get into many situations where it has boosts but no creatures? I know it's been talked about a bit, but what sort of testing has been done? Especially once you get to talking about Gro, which can counter/remove your creatures and basically ignore your boosts.
It is wrong not to count the 4 Elves and the 4 ESG's as potential targets for equipping. It happens all the time. Even a Llanowar Elf is a serious threat when it's got a Jitte attached. That makes 24 equip targets, not 16. That's a 3 to 1 ratio. Angel Stompy runs ~22 equip targets, if you're extremely generous and count Mother of Runes as something you'd want to be equipping. It runs 6-7 equipment. The ratio is almost identical.

Furthermore, you ignore the extremely relevant point that Jitte is legendary. If you're holding multiples, it's going to be dead whether or not you have something to equip it to. For all intents and purposes, Zilla Stompy is running 5 creature enhancers - 4 Rancors and 1 Jitte. The extra Jittes are simply backups in case of removal.

Stepping back from it, however, there's not any meaningful point to this comparison between the two decks. They've both been tested very thoroughly, and they both are pretty close to optimal for the current environment (although Angel Stompy is changing a bit in the near future). They each have their strengths and weaknesses. Zilla Stompy is a bit more consistent, and it's a bit faster. It's less explosive in the late game and doesn't as thoroughly crush other aggro as Angel Stompy does, however. Those are the major differences. In the end, it's going to be a metagame call.

Does 4 copies of anarchy in the board solve the Angel Stompy matchup if I'm willing to devote that much space? By solve, I mean: go 50/50.
Probably not. I tested 3 copies of Anarchy in the board and it was still abysmall. That said, it depends on a few things:

1) Is the Angel Stompy player running Parallax Wave like they should be? If so, Anarchy loses a lot of its effectiveness.

2) The inclusion of Iwamori over Slum will make a difference in your favor, but it may not be enough.

3) If you run Call of the Herd over BTS, and Iwamori over Slum, and Anarchy in the board, this might become a fairly even matchup. That'd be the route I'd try in testing if Angel Stompy was a major concern.

Vimes

03-08-2006, 04:04 PM

Sounds like a plan to me. I've always loved Call of the Herd. Thanks for your help.

tivadar

03-08-2006, 08:26 PM

It is wrong not to count the 4 Elves and the 4 ESG's as potential targets for equipping. It happens all the time. Even a Llanowar Elf is a serious threat when it's got a Jitte attached. That makes 24 equip targets, not 16. That's a 3 to 1 ratio. Angel Stompy runs ~22 equip targets, if you're extremely generous and count Mother of Runes as something you'd want to be equipping. It runs 6-7 equipment. The ratio is almost identical.

You've got a point, though if you count elves then not counting mothers doesn't make sense, it's really being fair between the two builds. 3:1 isn't terrible I suppose, but against a deck with strong removal my thought is you'll still run into situations where you have boosts but no creatures. For this, Jitte really does count as a 4 of. I understand what you're saying of "you can't have more than one in play", but then the others in your hand are dead. Though, in all fairness, under the current meta, you don't have a problem. If control gets big again, this deck loses, a lot. I'm curious what the landstill matchup is, as I don't think this deck can race its wraths.

The only reason I bring this up is because I know landstill was a big problem for AS in the past, and these decks run very similar strategies.

AngryTroll

03-09-2006, 06:50 PM

The original Zilla Stompy was built to smash Landstill. Each threat in that deck, and this deck aslo, must be answered or the Landstill player loses. You do not race Wrath with this deck; they have to decide whether they need to Wrath your board of Elf and Troll, or Elf and BTS, or a singular BTS, Troll, or Iwamori. Troll Ascetic can only be answered by Wrath and Akroma's Vengence (is that even run? If it is, it is far, far too slow) (or Moat, I suppose. Now that is bad news), and a Troll wearing Rancor or Jitte is going to end the game in a hurry.

Troll's untargetability and regeneration make him insanely good in this matchup, and he comes down on turn two. You can play the mind game and lead with BTS or Iwamori/Slum, or whatever you need to do. I have not tested 2k6 vs Landstill, but it does what the original does and should play close to the same way.

Zilla

03-09-2006, 07:27 PM

I wouldn't say that this deck necessarily has a strong Landstill matchup, but it's probably better than Angel Stompy's. Angel Stompy has a lot of essentially dead cards in the Landstill matchup - particularly StP and Mother of Runes. Angel Stompy's creatures also have a harder time dealing with recurring Factories as blockers. It's also slower in general. Zilla Stompy will have an advantage over Angel Stompy in this matchup because its removal doubles as burn, which gives it late game reach, and because the majority of its threats don't die to a blocking, self-pumped Factory.

As for Wrath of God, you don't race it. You simply slow-play against it. Landstill puts very very little pressure on you in the early game. Simply play a single threat, equip it, and hold back the rest of your threats. If you're playing this matchup correctly, Wrath of God should rarely be mroe than a 2 for 1 trade.

Seriously though, this mental comparison of the two decks is rather pointless. The deck isn't Angel Stompy. In fact, I originally created Angel Stompy specifically to beat the earlier iteration of this deck. They serve different metagame roles. Rather than conjecturing on the relative advantages, it makes more sense to take a mental stock of the prevalent decks in your meta, and actually test this deck against them.

Adan

03-10-2006, 02:19 PM

Well,what i don't like is that the mana curve has rose so much.

in the past, R/G Beatz was something like this:

3 Cursed Scroll
2 Pithing Needle
1 Naturalize
4 Rancor
4 River Boa
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Chain Lightning
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Incinerate
4 Kird Ape
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mogg Fanatic
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Forest
4 Mountain
4 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

So,this build is very fast,River Boas are efficient Blockers and have evasion against Gro and Landstill,which makes them extremely aggressive against Gro and Landstill.And Troll Ascetic was the most expansive Critter in R/G Beatz. But now Burning tree Shaman and Rumbling Slum? They are just to slow.

Landstill is a good matchup,i played This Build in the pastand landstill does nothing against troll Ascetic,except WoG,but he must first draw one.

And before that troll should already hurt your opponent like hell(rancored is even better).The Problen is,that Burning tree Shaman and Slum are just vulnerable for their CC. And Jitte costs 2 Mana and 2 for equipping,sometimes that a kind of timewalk for the opponent.

Zilla

03-10-2006, 03:22 PM

You're correct that that's what RG Beats used to look like. It doesn't anymore. It can't. Lists with a low curve like that do not consistently beat Goblins the way this deck does. Zilla Stompy crushes Goblins by virtue of its overwhelmingly large threats. There is a direct correlation between the changes in the metagame and the changes in this deck's mana curve.

It's good that your list beats Landstill, but in America at least, hardly anyone is actually playing Landstill. The decks to beat are Goblins and Thresh. The higher curve and larger beats available in this build allow it to beat Goblins and Thresh with a high degree of consistency. The lower-cc build cannot, which makes it unviable in a competitive metagame.

As for the relative slowness of Shaman, Iwamori, and Jitte, I'll point out that these 3 cards are the reasons the deck smashes Goblins. That's why they're included, and they do their job. Your analysis included on Landstill and Thresh as metagame factors, where Goblins goes compeltely unmentioned. As far as I'm aware, there isn't a Legacy metagame on the planet where Landstill is more prevalent than Goblins right now. Until that changes, the higher mana curve is absolutely necessary.

BlindMage

03-10-2006, 03:22 PM

You are right. That build looks rather similar to Zilla Stompy V1.x, which, if memory serves, was a deck designed with beating landstill in mind. However, Landstill is not currently considered a major force in the metagame, mostly due to the fact that Rabid Wombat, and now Rifter, can beat Landstill with their eyes closed. Zilla Stompy V2.x was designed with the modern metagame in mind, and BTS, incidentally, is fantastic against Rifter. Also, have you tried the Jitte? While its tempo can be less than ideal (though generally, you should consider it to be a 4-drop, and play, equip, and swing in the same turn), it is one of the not so many cards in the format that can own the game and facilitate truely unfair comebacks in a variety of matchups.

Jolfer

03-10-2006, 03:34 PM

Lists with a low curve like that do not consistently beat Goblins the way this deck does.

SBing pyrokinesis can really put an end to goblins. It may be true that it will not be able to beat goblins "the way" that deck does, but it can certainly still have a positive matchup.

I've been playing something like this, and have found that it does consistently beat goblins.

Beast [18]
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Troll Ascetic

Spells [18]
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
3 Incinerate (Should be chain lightning, but I don't have any yet)
4 Rancor
3 Jitte

Mana [24]
2 Llanowar Elves
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Forest
2 Mountain

SB [15]
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Naturalize
3 Anarchy

I'm not stating this is the best build possible, or even that is better than your build but rather just that it is possible to consistently beat goblins without relying on the more "fatty" approach to the deck. However, I have been toying aorund with Burning-Tree Shaman and am considering dropping the mongrels for him and if I do then I would drop the lavamancers for more elves and an incinerate for a third ESG; I am not sure yet though.

Zilla

03-10-2006, 08:06 PM

Pyrokinesis is strictly worse against Gro than is fat. It's also a sideboard answer, which means that Goblins has a better chance of winning 2 out of 3. Personally, I prefer to consistently smash the two most prominent decks in the format.

The lower-cc builds are also much more succeptible to Pyroclasm, which is obviously rampant in the field right now. You're also much much more succeptible to Chalice, which is becoming more widely played as well.

umbowta

03-10-2006, 08:59 PM

You're also much much more succeptible to Chalice, which is becoming more widely played as well.By whom? I have honestly only seen Chalice once in the last 2-3 months. Aside from that, I really am starting to like your build. Im just curious as to how good the Goblin matchup really is for Zilla Stompy...back a couple pages I'm sure.

Zilla

03-10-2006, 09:55 PM

By whom?
Angel Stax, 5/3, Super Duper Green, etc. I'm not suggesting it's widely prevalent by any means, but a lot of decks in Developmental right now are running them either in the side or in the board, and while that doesn't necessarily translate to current metagame concerns, it can very well be indicative of a soming metagame trend.

Im just curious as to how good the Goblin matchup really is for Zilla Stompy...back a couple pages I'm sure.
Really, really good. I'm not just talking smack here - this has been tested against varying builds and various (competent) opponents. The keys to this matchup are making sure that you have an answer to turn 1 Lackey, and that you'll be able to recover from an early Wasteland. In my experience, these are essentially the only times you lose to Goblins, and both can be avoided with intelligent mulligans.

Basically, you have 16 potential answers to a turn 1 Lackey (Kird Ape, Bolt, Elves, Jet off an ESG), you have 8 spot removal spells for the most dangerous of their threats (Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief, Jeek), and each and every one of your threats is a massive roadblock for them. The only relevant removal thay have here is Incinerator, which is typically not enough to remove the fattest of your threats. Even Burning-Tree Shaman by himself is a formidable threat. Add Iwamori or Troll to the mix and it gets quickly out of hand, particularly when you're picking away at their real threats with your spot removal. If a Jitte hits the table and they don't have a Needle for it, the game is essentially over. Your manabase is extremely robust and resilient to attack by Wasteland and/or Port.

I could go on, but it's not necessary. Test it yourself. Goblins is one of the deck's best matchups, which is in fact one of the biggest reasons it's worth playing right now.

scrumdogg

03-15-2006, 10:50 AM

I prefer the curve into relevant fat option but respect the power of low cc R/G. My question would be, can the deck include Tin Street Hooligan as a combination of efficient beater and artifact removal? Would that make enough of a difference? I'm asking because I am running R/G in T2 (ironically the fat model....) but use the Hooligan for Jitte & other annoying artifacts Game 1 without wasting a Naturalize type slot (or just losing....). In my deck, I also have the mana flexibility to cast him for RR or R1 instead of RG - which can be very important & leads to my next question, can Hooligan & Jitte safely & efficiently co-exoist in the same deck?

I like the idea of a R/G DW option in the current meta as it can make life extremely difficult for the top decks. It does open the deck to Pyroclastic hate more then the fat option, but speed counts, as does cc.

Quick list of relevant artifacts:
Aether Vial
Jitte
CotV (usually Game 2 - but bad for 1cc deck whenever it hits....)
Cranial Plating (yes, it's still around) & friends
Cursed Scroll
Disk
large fat critters from Core to Naut to......

Zilla

03-16-2006, 01:29 AM

You could run Hooligan, if it were relevant in your meta, yes. Personally, I'd recommend against it in most metas, because typically the biggest problems the deck faces are not in the form of artifacts. It's nice that they answer Vial, but you already crush Goblins, and frankly, I don't relish the thought of making their Gempalms any more effective. It's not uncommon for them to be only a single goblin away from having the damage they need to remove your most significant threat, and Hooligan can provide that boost.

As for Jitte, it's not that relevant. You can use your own Jittes as pseudo Disenchants, and you tend to play them first anyway.

Chalice can be a pain, but it's not that prevalent, and it's also not that big a concern for the deck because of its highly varied curve anyway.

Cranial Plating is nice to get rid of, I guess, but that's certainly a metagame call. Same goes for Disk. And 'core. And definitely Dreadnaught.

As far as Cursed Scroll is concerned, it doesn't matter at all. It's slow as far as direct damage is concerned, and it doesn't kill any of your significant beaters. Shaman makes it more a liability than a threat.

The main artifact that can give you trouble is Pithing Needle naming Jitte or Troll, but that's almost certainly going to come out of the board.

In short, in most metagames, I think Hooligan belongs in the board, if you run it at all.

tsabo_tavoc

03-18-2006, 11:12 AM

1. Only 8 mana speeding creatures in which the Elves are hard to survive to the second turn makes 8 3cc creatures and none 2cc ones quite disputed;
2. Troll Aecetic and BTS are awesome. Have you ever considered Dosan the Falling Leaf? And there are some 5cc creatures(the 9/9 trample wurm needs enchantment(Rancor) to sustain) seems to be better than Iwonari(but this guy is 4cc, that's true.).
3. Jittle is great. None swords is needed? What about Lightning Greaves(to speed up, and as to 2, the wurm more reasonable?)?
4. For SB, Viridian Zealot is better than Naturalize. Tin-Street Hooligan, seems to be great. They are 2cc creatures in answer to my concern in 1, and I know the problems are their spaces(replace Kird Ape, is Kird Ape realy necessary???) and their mana base.

Bane of the Living

03-18-2006, 11:49 AM

Zealot cant be used against Humility. Rifter has been showing up more frequently than it used to. The deck does have Jitte to already get around Humility maindeck but Zealot is just a bad answer to Humility. His threat density is high enough where his naturalize doesnt need legs. Ztompy can just side out burn for the Naturalize.

Sims

03-18-2006, 12:56 PM

Also, to answer another point. Yes, Kird Ape IS really necessary.

Zilla

03-18-2006, 04:55 PM

1. Only 8 mana speeding creatures in which the Elves are hard to survive to the second turn makes 8 3cc creatures and none 2cc ones quite disputed;
It's not hard for ESG to survive long enough to accellerate your threats, unless you're referring to hand destruction.

2. Troll Aecetic and BTS are awesome. Have you ever considered Dosan the Falling Leaf?
Against what? Counters are almost non-existent in this format, and you already have good game against Thresh. It'd be decent against Solidarity, except that it's only a temporary setback against them, and Pyrostatic Pillar and REB are both better answers for the board.

And there are some 5cc creatures(the 9/9 trample wurm needs enchantment(Rancor) to sustain) seems to be better than Iwonari(but this guy is 4cc, that's true.).
The deck's curve essentially stops at 4. The deck can't afford to get any slower without adding some real control elelments like Trinishphere or Wire, at which point you're playing a different deck.

3. Jittle is great. None swords is needed? What about Lightning Greaves(to speed up, and as to 2, the wurm more reasonable?)?
Jitte is indeed Great. Swords is mostly unnecessary. There are some matchups where it would be nice, like Angel Stompy and Reanimator, but there are plenty of matchups where it's strictly worse than burn. In some metagames you could splash white and run it over Bolt, but in most I don't think it's worthwhile. As for Lightning Greaves, you simply can't afford to run more than 8 creature enhancers, and there's not a chance in hell I'd drop Rancor or Jitte for them.

4. For SB, Viridian Zealot is better than Naturalize.
It's much slower, it doesn't answer Humility, and it doesn't answer Chant on a Stick. As a maindeck element, it might be better against a diverse field, buit Naturalize isn't in the maindeck. It's there for very specific matchups where Naturalize is indeed better than Zealot.

Tin-Street Hooligan, seems to be great.
In certain metagames, yes, he's a good choice for the sideboard. In an unknown field, I'd rather have Naturalize for its versatility, however.

They are 2cc creatures in answer to my concern in 1, and I know the problems are their spaces(replace Kird Ape, is Kird Ape realy necessary???) and their mana base.
As long as Goblins is a major force in the metagame, yes, they are absolutely necessary. The can effectively chump any goblin (aside from Piledriver) without dying, and they're a difficult to remove first turn blocker for Lackey. Without them, the deck's ability to smash Goblins would be significantly reduced.

meanee

03-19-2006, 05:56 AM

I have been thinking about hunted troll. Wouldn't that be quite awesome in the rumbling slum/iwamori spot? The faeries are litterally no problem at all, and he beats for a tremendous 8, AND regenerates for a mere G...
I think he is definately worth testing at least. You haven't metioned him with a single word, why is that?

- meanee

Myrrodin

03-19-2006, 08:11 AM

Meanee, Hunted troll has a few problems. First off, his 8 power is irrelevant, by playing him your opponent now has 4 chumpblockers to go through before he needs to find an answer, which he very well might already have. Secondly, regenerate is not useful for him ATM. Swords to Plowshares immediately takes care of him, netting your opponent 4 faeries. Also, humility and wrath of god dispose of him without much of a problem. Therefore, he doesn't really have an advantage over Iwamori (who will pound over a lot in this format, where large creatures are scarce) or Rumbling Slum (who can beat any creature, while providing damage for a deck that is almost always playing the beatdown role. Slum is essentially a 6/6 for 4. Hope that clears up any confusion.

meanee

03-19-2006, 03:29 PM

I was just looking at my 16 spots to get rid of them faeries (8 burns, 4 rancor, 4 jitte), and thought that these might get rid of those faeries before they would ever become anoying... Maybe its just the tiny timmy in me who wants to play a critter with an astonishing power of 8!! :)

- meanee

Zilla

03-19-2006, 07:12 PM

Hunted Troll is extremely conditional, Iwamori is anything but. There's not much more to say beyond that. 8 power is nice and all, but his toughness is lower than either Iwamori or Slum, which is a huge liability. His regeneration is nice. but it makes him cost effectively 5 to play if you want to protect him from removal, which is outside of the deck's curve. Honestly, I'd by far rather have the trample and extra toughness on Iwamori than the 8 power on Troll. In fact, I'd probably play Iwamori over Troll even if he didn't give the opponent creatures.

tsabo_tavoc

03-23-2006, 03:10 AM

Thanks for the detailed answer from Godzilla.
I am convinced that Zealot is inferior to Naturalize. But I think there are some more to be discussed in the SB.
As you have mentioned before, main threats to the deck is something like Wrath of God, Worship, and some other annoying white permanents. And for the main deck, the build has strong defenses against Goblins or Thresholds. Then why the presence of Tormad's Crypt?
What about something like this:
4 Pithing Needle
4 Naturalize
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Anarchy

For the fletches, what about the split for 2 Wooded Foothills/1 Bloodstained Mire/1 Windswept Heath?

Finally, I am still stick to my point for Greaves. It might in place for Jittles! Equipping on the Endless Wurm just means ending the game! A quick attack is much better than double +1/+1s(as your creatures are strong enough), especially against Wraths.
Why not Rancor not placing on the targeting creatures with Greaves? Equip Greaves to another guy, then Rancor on, then place back if you want to. It might burn you 1 or 2 with BTS on the field.
With Greaves, 4 Iwonari may be replaced by the split of 2 Iwonari/2 Endless Wurm, or 2 Phantom Centaur/2 Endless Wurm.

Zilla

03-23-2006, 05:09 AM

Crypt included because while Thresh is positive, it's not a walk in the park. Because it's one of the most prevalent decks in the format, it makes sense to strengthen your game against it. It's not totally necessary, though. Your sideboard is viable, but it's less flexible.

As for the fetches, there's not a particularly good reason to hurt your consistency by splitting them the way you've suggested. It defends against Pithing Needle to a degree, but if your opponent is naming Foothills instead of Troll or Jitte, you're in good shape anyway.

As for Endless Wurm and Lightning Greaves, you're fully into the realm of the Danger of Cool Things. Wurm is essentially outside your curve, and Greaves are essentially the suck. Jitte is one of the stronest cards in the deck by far and away. It is exceedingly important in the Goblins matchup, for one. It's also highly important against Burn, as well as a great many other matchups. I can't fathom why you'd want to replace the most broken equipment ever printed with Lightning Greaves, which do essentially nothing to further your gameplan.

SeanConnery

03-23-2006, 06:26 AM

Hi I'm from germany and have been watching this thread for a time because I was for a good Deck with the new cards specially burning tree shaman and slum, the other are less consistant (Scab-Clan Mauler, Gruul Guildmage).
ok enough of presentation, I played the deck on a legacy tournament last week with iwamori main and SB:
crypt, naturalize, pillar, 3 slums (because I had no anarchy and we don't have much angelST in our meta)

My major problem was drawing too much mana acceleration (elves and ESG), but I guess it was my bad luck this day. The other misfortune were the decks I played against:

- first Life Deck (yeaah! the first one I ever saw in our places)
okay I played about 10 times against this deck from a friend here at home and did know that I only got a chance in beeing fast or tree shaman (which I didn't draw).
I played 1:2 and the guy even didn't know that he can target nomads and cleric without damage (ouch) and used L.greaves.

+ 2:1 threshold (with lots of counters MB and SB)
okay first game I had a good draw at least this time and give him iwamori and 2 troll asket to counter, then another asket and jitte. then we had 2 other matchups where he countered the half of my creatures... the one game he won he drawed 3 BEB and me no SB card. 3rd game I got the topskill and we were Troll and 2x Fyndhorn elves against Mongoose, Werebear and Enforcer (ouch) and then I drawed the Crypt (as godzilla says, is always needed against thresh... specially for the late game ^^).

to keep it short next 3 games:
+ 2:0 selfmade TheRock-Witness-Kokusho-Deck (not bad but too slow)
- 1:2 goblin (he got the better draw and in the 3rd game Char to finish?!!!! :D)
- 0:2 FlameFault, argh why me! but it was quite funny that I could have killed him in the last game:
I got him on 11 live and it was his turn. My board was Tree-Shaman (rancored), Ape, Elf and 2 mana left for Jet and Naturalize in hand.
Then he played 2 Time Vaults because he was guessing about a naturalize in my hand (damn) and flame fussilate of course.
We both thought he would gain 4 damage from shaman to kill him and be on 11 life after that. But after I conceded I saw that shaman deals damage for vault activation cost plus flame fussilate because of the "each permanent gainst Tap:"... so he would have been on 1 life and I had the jet... my fault.

After this tournament I'm thinking of how to adapt the SB for kombo and BEB.
My Meta has often lot of Kombo and SB against aggro with Pyroclasm, BEB and other bad things. Specially BEB against Shaman gives me the creeps.
So I think I'm going:
3x Crypt
2x Naturalize
3x Needle
4x BEB
3x Slum/ Pillar/ Isao, Enlightened Bushi/ Leyline lifeforce (what do you think?)
or anyone tried Root Maze ?

A second thing is... what about adding nonbasics like barbarian ring to get more flexibillity? okay there aren't much lands which are usefull but as you don'T have to play nonbasic hate you could change lands?
hm ancient tomb and city of traitors unfortunately don't fit with the mana curve... manlands are slowing and burn you as you sad... hm the only things I have in mind are burning ring or Centaur Garden.

I would be glad about some help. sorry for my english.
hope my story wasn't too boring!

@godzilla
great deck + awesome thread & explanations

tsabo_tavoc

03-24-2006, 06:54 AM

So I think I'm going:
3x Crypt
2x Naturalize
3x Needle
4x BEB
3x Slum/ Pillar/ Isao, Enlightened Bushi/ Leyline lifeforce (what do you think?)
or anyone tried Root Maze ?

BEB=Blue Element Blast?
I don't think counters like REB is something essential in Sideboard.

It is exceedingly important in the Goblins matchup, for one. It's also highly important against Burn, as well as a great many other matchups.

Small creatures are vulnerable confronting jitte, but they can also be swiped out by Pyroclasms. And, are burn decks so popular?
I know jitte is a versatile card, but I just feel awful with BTS on the board. Are Greaves totally unnecessary to be taken into consideration? I mean, Endless Wurm is not so much the deviation from the mana curve, and Greaves gives him the chance to attack yhe same turn as Iwanori with Jitte.
Finally, all my suggestions are around the solution to the awkward matchup with wraths.
But after further consideration, Greaves may not equip the same turn Endless Wurm standing on the board with Suppression Field. How to deal with white controll, then?

Lukas Preuss

03-24-2006, 07:55 AM

I don't think counters like REB is something essential in Sideboard.

REB doesn't only function as a counterspell, but also as spot removal, since it reads "Counter target blue spell or destroy target blue permanent". Just thought I'd mention that...

Sims

03-24-2006, 08:32 AM

BEB=Blue Element Blast?
I don't think counters like REB is something essential in Sideboard.

Small creatures are vulnerable confronting jitte, but they can also be swiped out by Pyroclasms. And, are burn decks so popular?
I know jitte is a versatile card, but I just feel awful with BTS on the board. Are Greaves totally unnecessary to be taken into consideration? I mean, Endless Wurm is not so much the deviation from the mana curve, and Greaves gives him the chance to attack yhe same turn as Iwanori with Jitte.
Finally, all my suggestions are around the solution to the awkward matchup with wraths.
But after further consideration, Greaves may not equip the same turn Endless Wurm standing on the board with Suppression Field. How to deal with white controll, then?

Burn decks may not be dominating the format, but they will always be a factor I consider when preparing for any tournament as they are very cheap to build and can just drop the nuts on you, so long as they don't get totally mana flooded and actually draw their threats. Jitte helps alleviate this somewhat, although it's by no means a final answer to their game plan. Jitte is also better than Pyroclasm against Goblins because, while it may seem inherently slow and vulnerable, once it's equipped it makes the Goblin player rethink swinging into your insignificant blockers lest their army start vanishing.. and once you start swinging, their shit vanishes anyways. Greaves isn't needed; It only really provides haste, as if they're going to remove your threat they can still do it in response to the equip anyways. Moving on to other subjects; Endless Wurm doesn't belong at all in this deck, as it is too expensive and you only have 4 cards in the deck that will allow it to live past the initial cast, so you'd really be forced to run something to give your critters haste. In that situation, however, I still wouldn't run the boots. I would probably run Fires of Yavimaya instead as it would haste your beats and give you more enchantments to pay the Wurms upkeep... But that is an ENTIRELY different deck.

Finally: How do Lightning Greaves and Endless Wurm help your "awkward matchup against Wrath." Endless Wurm dies the same way Open Fist does, and Greaves (while hasting beats) IS NOT the threat that Jitte is against Wrath. An elf with Jitte is a force: An elf with boots is just a 2-card Raging Goblin that taps for G.

tsabo_tavoc

03-25-2006, 03:27 AM

Finally: How do Lightning Greaves and Endless Wurm help your "awkward matchup against Wrath." Endless Wurm dies the same way Open Fist does, and Greaves (while hasting beats) IS NOT the threat that Jitte is against Wrath. An elf with Jitte is a force: An elf with boots is just a 2-card Raging Goblin that taps for G.
Actually, I have not built up the decks, yet none matchups had been made. The thought of Endless Wurm, Rancor, and Greaves was enlightened by a friend, meaning that the presence of Wurm kills your opponent immediately, and this may be a kind of solution to Wraths. It is originated from my complaint of the Legend nature of Iwonari(Now the presence of 4 Iwonaris main no longer upset me), the red splash of Slum, and Phantom Centaur uncapable of trample. Yes, with no practises based on, this seems to be so naive- the changing from Jittes to Wurm and Greaves indeed have overwhelming defects over merits. I am clear now the unstability and the far from the topic of Wurm thanks to the discussion. Still, I will continue to provide you with some "fresh" ideas from China, the area with underdeveloped Legacy.

REB doesn't only function as a counterspell, but also as spot removal, since it reads "Counter target blue spell or destroy target blue permanent". Just thought I'd mention that...
Thanks for the reminding. I didn't state clearly in my former comment. According to my understanding, blue is no big deal to the deck and what we shall focused on the SB is white. Chill can be naturalized, and Pithing Needle seems to be a comprehensive solution to cards including Psychatog.

Godzilla: Why not place 4 naturalize in the SB, aren't their enough tough artifacts and enchantments to deal with?

Bane of the Living

03-25-2006, 07:16 AM

I really think if your gonna go with Endless Wurm you should be playing Fires of Yavimaya, and no I dont think thats taking the deck in a different direction. Fires gives all men haste and doesnt need to be equiped for a BTS point of damage. Unlike greaves if Fires is naturalized you can still pump for +2/+2. Finally, its another 4 enchantments for the Wurm. Fires sounds like a great idea, it makes the deck alot scarier knowing you cant tap out because anything can come out of the gate. Even an ESG with a rancor is a hastey 4 damage I'd be afraid of.

Zilla I do propose you try Fires. It did well back in its hayday, and if it warrants Endless Wurm I think you'd be foolish to exclude him. a 9/9 Trample Haste is NOTHING to scoff at. It might give the deck what it needs to beat AS.

parallax

03-25-2006, 11:33 AM

I don't know if Fires of Yavimaya is really an appropriate card for this deck. I think you'd rather be spending that three mana on a threat like Troll or BTS. It would be useful against white decks, however. Even if you did play with Fires, five mana is slightly above the decks curve. Besides, wouldn't Saproling Burst >>>> Endless Wurm? Granted, Wurm has synergy with Rancor, but then it's a 6 mana 11/9 with a one mana upkeep cost. Definitely outside the mana curve.

Bane of the Living

03-25-2006, 12:09 PM

Its not really outside the curve when your playing Elves and ESG's...

Think about how sick a turn 2 Fires would be. Think of what that does to decks relying on WoG. Think of how sick goblins are when hasted. Id definitly wait a turn to give all my creatures haste for the rest of the game.

Wurm should simply win the game if he comes into play with fires. I doubt you'd even get a next turn after playing a 11/9 trample haste on turn what?? maybe 4? Seriously I think it would improve the white weenie matchup.

Lego

03-26-2006, 03:14 AM

It might give the deck what it needs to beat AS.

Is this a big selling point? I haven't been paying too much attention here, but if it's got game against everything else, why do you need to beat AS? I assumed about 3 people played that deck.

Zilla

03-26-2006, 04:39 AM

Wurm should simply win the game if he comes into play with fires. I doubt you'd even get a next turn after playing a 11/9 trample haste on turn what?? maybe 4? Seriously I think it would improve the white weenie matchup.
I don't think it will improve the Angel Stompy matchup much at all, really. Silver Knight Holds off nearly every threat in the deck, and the ones it doesn't will be answered with StP and/or Wave. Not only do you need to have Rancor before Wurm is playable, but Angel Stompy can often remove the creature your targeting with Rancor in response, thereby removing the target creature, the Rancor, and making Endless Wurm dead in your hand. That's some rather effective card advantage.

Honestly, Iwamori is probably better in the Angel Stompy matchup because it's not conditional, it has built in trample, comes into play faster, and still effectively trades with every threat in the deck. Again, it feels like the Danger of Cool Things to me here. If you build a deck around it, that might be a different story, but this deck isn't built around it.

Incidentally, that's the same reason Fires has no place here. It's nice, but it would have to replace a threat, which invalidates the 8 creature enhancement strategy, which is the foundation of the deck's premise. You could build a decent Fires/Endless Wurm deck, and it might do alright, but it would be a totally different deck.

Godzilla: Why not place 4 naturalize in the SB, aren't their enough tough artifacts and enchantments to deal with?
No reason. As I said, the sideboard isn't set in stone. If it's appropriate in your metagame, 4 Naturalize is a perfectly acceptable choice.

SeanConnery

03-26-2006, 05:46 PM

@godzilla
why do you prefer BTS over Call of the Herd in zillast2k6?
If your meta has many decks playing act. abillities I understand, but otherwise CotH as 3mana-choice is better against Goblins, Thresh, AS other decks playing creatures... against control and discard too. Shaman has the */4 and does some damage more in a few games but I see more positive aspects in CotH.
With Call you could play more fetchs/nonbasics, get more jitte targets and less damage for yourself and you can try stuff like x (tried 2x) ancient tomb for faster play of Iwamori, Herd, Jitte and ESG hardcast.
I think call speeds it up.

greez

Zilla

03-26-2006, 09:54 PM

Primarily I run BTS over Call because of the 4 toughness, which is highly important against Goblins and anything with Bolt in it (which is a lot of things). Against Goblins it's important because they can't trade a 2 power dork and a Fanatic to get rid of him, where with Call they can. Furthermore, the damage from activated abilities really adds up against a lot of decks, and forces them into a tough spot with regards to what they can and cannot do in the late game.

Essentially, it's a metagame choice. In a field full of aggro and activated abilities, I prefer BTS. If I were faced with a more control heavy meta, or one with a lot of Angel Stompy, I would probably go with Call.

SeanConnery

03-27-2006, 04:59 PM

Adan

03-28-2006, 05:03 PM

hm okay but I see more goblins run swords (with plateau) than bolts.
I'm still more concerned about swords than bolts and our meta here has more StP (+other removal) than bolts.
Of course I agree with the act. abillities and the little more damage through BTS.
As addition I would prefer BTS for meta with lot of red/redsplash and call of the herd for meta with more white/-splash like threshwhite, pikula, rift, landstillwhite, AS...etc.

Well,but i would prefer BTS for our meta,because it's good against Rift,Landstill and Vial Goblins. And our latest Top8 consists of 2 Rift,2 Landstill and 2 Vial Goblins,so i think BTS is superior to Call of the Herd. Sure,Call of the Herd is usefull against Vial Goblins,but BTS is just huge and more vasatile than Call of the Herd.
Because BTS makes damage everytime i activae a manland or when I cycle a card(or refetch eternal dragon...)

so my opinion about the CotH>BTS? would be: BTS > CotH

btw: Hallo Mario!^^

rsaunder

03-28-2006, 07:32 PM

So Hi everyone!

A few of my friends and playtest partners were running a deck similar to this a while back that ran tanglewire, earthquake, and a few other things. After testing both a little bit, I've got to say that this build is the superior one. One part of this list that I didn't find to my liking was the mana accelorants. ESG+elves=a lotta green mana. I realize that this is some of the reason that the deck is able to run a direct split in basic lands, but hear me out. I've been messing around with the mana base a little bit, and have found that this works rather well:

4 Birds/elves (I like birds here, despite the lack of jittability)
4 TINDER WALL
4 tiaga
4 Foothills
7 forest
5 mountain

I even tossed the idea around of cutting all but one tiaga with this manabase, with the last one left in there mostly to grab a first turn 2/3 kird ape if needed. This had some minor inconsistancies, but if you have a waste heavy meta and are running into mana issues, I'd highly reccommend it.

I've also toyed around with doing this to the maindeck (these are all from the origional post, by the way)

-1 slum
-1 Jitte
+2 Iwomari

The cutting of the one jitte (to SB) was mostly my response to taking 5+ damage from BTS because of it almost every game. It still happens, but not as often. The removal of the slum was mostly as "I didn't have 4 slums" thing to begin with, but I noticed that I wished I had the 2 Iwomari's back, even after I got a fourth slum a few weeks ago.

Just some food for thought.

tsabo_tavoc

04-01-2006, 03:28 AM

One part of this list that I didn't find to my liking was the mana accelorants. ESG+elves=a lotta green mana. I realize that this is some of the reason that the deck is able to run a direct split in basic lands, but hear me out. I've been messing around with the mana base a little bit, and have found that this works rather well:

4 Birds/elves (I like birds here, despite the lack of jittability)
4 TINDER WALL
4 tiaga
4 Foothills
7 forest
5 mountain
ESG is just the most exciting mana accelerant here-with no worry about being plowshared, bolted, or countered. Birds, Walls-doesn't the lack of jittability upset you? Yeah, a lot of green mana, in fact, only 16 cards in the deck needs red to summon.

I even tossed the idea around of cutting all but one tiaga with this manabase, with the last one left in there mostly to grab a first turn 2/3 kird ape if needed.
Ha, this is just the idea I had tossed around this week, mostly due to the high price of Taiga.
Of course, 4 Taiga is better than 1 in most cases(I don't know if the disruption from Wasteland or Back to Basics is worth thinking). Taiga, to me, is just to ensure the first turn 2/3 to beat Lacky. I computed the possibilities of "first turn with ape ,without Taiga" in both case of 5 "Taiga"s(4 Foothills to fetch) and 8 "Taiga"s: 22.7%, 14.7%, respectively. There is an 8% difference here. If 2/3 is to stop Lacky, the result multiplied by 40.0%, the probability your opponent has the first turn Lackey, it turns out 3.2%.
This is a relatively small figure here. 1 Taiga is practical in this respect.

I really think if your gonna go with Endless Wurm you should be playing Fires of Yavimaya, and no I dont think thats taking the deck in a different direction. Fires gives all men haste and doesnt need to be equiped for a BTS point of damage. Unlike greaves if Fires is naturalized you can still pump for +2/+2. Finally, its another 4 enchantments for the Wurm. Fires sounds like a great idea, it makes the deck alot scarier knowing you cant tap out because anything can come out of the gate. Even an ESG with a rancor is a hastey 4 damage I'd be afraid of.
Where to settle Fires down is the main problem, replacing 2 Jittes and 2 Jets? What is your plan here? I am really curious about it, can anyone test the idea?(There are few Chinese playing T1.5, and the only deck I can test with is Vial Goblin.) Also note that 2 Endless Wurm is enough!

Again, it feels like the Danger of Cool Things to me here. If you build a deck around it, that might be a different story, but this deck isn't built around it.
I think it is improper to discuss the properties of decks. Why not have some tests here? Isn't haste a way to lessen the threats from Wraths...?

Zilla

04-01-2006, 04:29 AM

Isn't haste a way to lessen the threats from Wraths...?
Unless you're dealing lethal damage with your hasted creature, not really. If you're playing properly against an oppoent with Wrath, you should only have one threat on the board at a time, while enhancing that threat with Rancor and Jitte. This makes Wrath an expensive 1 for 1 trade. The deck's threat density makes this a viable strategy.

tivadar

04-01-2006, 09:19 AM

Is this a big selling point? I haven't been paying too much attention here, but if it's got game against everything else, why do you need to beat AS? I assumed about 3 people played that deck.

AS may not be tier 1 right now, but it's still fairly widely played. A survey from right around the time of GP:Philly showed something like 20-30% of people running Angel Stompy/White Weenie variants. While I'm sure this has dropped considerably, I'd be surprised if it wasn't at least 10-20% still.

@Wurm vs. Iwamori:
Yeah, godzilla's right, Iwamori is still more scary. This is mainly because it's quicker and non-conditional. If you're running Wurm, and you need another card on the board to make it even work, then AS has options, as they could even just disenchant fires when wurm came into play, or swords in response to rancor. Plus, as someone said, if you're not swinging for the win with him, then he's major card disadvantage. A mother and an exalted also neutralize his damage.

tsabo_tavoc

04-01-2006, 09:43 AM

Oh, Angel Stompy! not Angel Stax! I made a major mistake here. No Fires of Yavimayas and Wurms, of course!
:eek: Jittes to remove Knights, Priests, Needles to unable Mothers, Anarchy in the SB-Only. That explains the 3-9.

Any more matchups recently?

Lord Dralnu

04-05-2006, 01:02 PM

I have been testing alot with this deck lately, and I love it. My problem is, I never know what to side out to bring in stuff from the SB. Like against rifter, I wanted to side in tranquil domain and pithing needle (for eternal beatstick), but didn't know what to take out. Rancor needs to stay in for beating through humility, jitte same reason, BTS is the best card in the deck against rifter, the accel helps get damage through before humilty hits, and burn can just win the game on the spot. So what should I be siding out to bring in SB stuff for different match-ups. I know you mention what to bring in , but not what to take out.
I have been very impressed with the power of this deck against goblins threshold and even random scrub decks. Great job Zilla :smile:!

Zilla

04-05-2006, 04:12 PM

Against Rifter, I usually side out Bolts first, and possibly a Jitte if necessary. The deck doesn't really have enough burn for it to create inevitability in the long game; it's rarely used as a finisher, and far more often used as creature removal. Since Rifter has no creatures you're going to want to remove with Bolt, they tend to get sided out.

Jittes are good against Humility as you noted, but they're most important in the aggro matchup, which is why there's a full 4. In this matchup, you can stand to do without one, since you don't really need to see it before turn 4 anyway.

The Magma Jets I tend to leave in as a means of finding my hate faster, be it Tranquil Domain, Winter Orb, or Pithing Needle.

Zelyon

04-07-2006, 01:48 AM

It's a very solid deck and I congratulate on making many improvements on the old build.

I was wondering if you tested Fyndhorn Elves (or Birds of Paradise) in Elvish Spirit Guides place.

Yes, ESGs are more explosive, but Fyndhorn Elves give you consistent acceleration which can be crucial because this lets you play a burn spell the same turn you cast a creature, or regenerate Troll Ascetic. It lets you play and equip Jitte at the same time and thus overall provides a more long term tempo boost.

I assume this is the reason why Llanowar Elves is such a crucial part of the mana curve. But with only 4x copies of it, you won't be able to lead with it to fuel a 2nd turn 3cc card more than half the games you play. By running fewer number of it, it also makes you more vulnerable to burn mana screwing you. Given that, it seems worthwhile to run 8x copies or 6x copies along with 2x ESGs with it. And Fyndhorn lets you do precisely that.

The second question is more because I'm interested in trying this deck out in a upcoming local tourney once (seems like a fun deck to try) but won't be able to get my hands on Burning Tree Shaman for a while.

I was considering running Call of the Herd (or possibly River Boa or something else) in it's place.

And I was wondering if Call isn't actually better than Burning Tree Shaman in a lot of matchups.

Call gives you two 3/3 bodies (each big enough to block and survive the 2/1s and 2/2s that run rampant in this format) for the price of one card. If makes it so a control player has to counter or deal with or remove two threats rather than one. It makes sure you always have something to cast. And it's puts your opponent on a near identical clock to Burning Tree Shaman since a few turns later on, you'll likely use the flashback ability to get another threat to do a few more points of damage in. Perhaps most importantly, it'll let you replace one more Mountain with a Forest to give you a mana base that looks as neat as clean as the rest of the deck (that was a joke).

How close would you say the two cards are in power level? Is it really worth it to spend money on Burning Tree Shaman if I already have 4x Calls?

This is the build I'm at right now...

// Mana
8 Forest
4 Mountain
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Llanowar Elves
2 Birds of Paradise/Fyndhorn Elves
2 Elvish Spirit Guide

// Creatures
4 Kird Ape
4 Call of the Herd
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Iwamori of the Open Fist

// Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Rancor
4 Umezawa's Jitte

dre4m

04-07-2006, 08:52 AM

ESG is better than more Elves because it's free, instant mana that is castable in a 2/2 body if the need arises. While Elves provide the mana in subsequent turns, an ESG gets you the mana now so you can cast those turn 2 Iwamori or Troll-Rancor or Jitte-equip, without waiting a turn for your accel to go active. Also, elves and birds and the like tend to die rather quickly in this format, as anyone with experience against R/G knows that killing the turn 1 mana producer will increase their odds of living long enough to win substantially. ESG dodges this difficulty, as nothing save a Stifle will stop you from getting your green mana.

frogboy

04-07-2006, 10:12 AM

ESG dodges this difficulty, as nothing will stop you from getting your green mana.

Fixed.

ESG also kicks Daze square in the balls.

Binary Star

04-07-2006, 11:56 AM

Would chalice of the void be a valid option? Think of all the decks you could lock down by setting a chalice to 2.

dre4m

04-07-2006, 01:24 PM

Would chalice of the void be a valid option? Think of all the decks you could lock down by setting a chalice to 2.

It would be if the goal of the deck wasn't to beat your opponents' faces in. Also, it kills Jitte, which is a pretty key card in this deck. Plus, if you have 4 mana available, you can probably do something much better with it, like cast Iwamori, or a Troll and a Rancor, or two Kird Apes with mana to regenerate Troll, or Jitte-Equip.

P.S. thanks Frogboy, I typed that in a hurry.

tsabo_tavoc

04-07-2006, 10:32 PM

I have been very impressed with the power of this deck against goblins threshold and even random scrub decks. Great job Zilla :smile:!
Thanks for your report. What I have done this week is tests against Angel Stompy, 4-10 totally. 1-3 with the original format, 2-2 with 4 Emerald Charm in place of Jets, 1-3 with 3 Anarchy and 2 Naturalize in place of Jets and 1 Ape, and 0-2 also with Anarchy and Naturalize, while remains 2 Jets and 2 Bolts. The detailed result proves nothing but showing my bad draws in the last games.

I usually side out Bolts first
It resembles the cases here. I was annoyed by my bad draw quite often, and Jets may be the only choice to alleviate that. I buried Exalted Angel by 2 bolts in one game, but I know this cannot be relied on. Instead of Naturalize, Emerald Charm seems to be a decent choice here, even from the aspect of versatility(Let Hooligans deal with heavy Artifacts): How about bring its to SB.

// Mana
8 Forest
4 Mountain
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Llanowar Elves
2 Birds of Paradise/Fyndhorn Elves
2 Elvish Spirit Guide

I was impressed with the time my elf is removed by Parallax Wave, having dried of Land for 3-4 turns with 2 on board, Exalted Angel standing on the other side, having blown me to 1 life. Parallax Wave have no fading counters but it still survives till the next upkeep. I draw a Mountain, with Anarchy in my hand, but my poor elf!
ESG, I can say, is the best mana accelerant I have ever ever ever seen(in Legacy). Against many decks, Elves cannot just survive!

How close would you say the two cards are in power level? Is it really worth it to spend money on Burning Tree Shaman if I already have 4x Calls?
Thanks to take money into consideration. Zilla may well explain this, but I will say they are close in power levels. My tests against Angel Stompy reminds me the Elephant. Oh, our decks are greener and greener, the deck might be well estabilished before Guildpact, or Ravnica!

Would chalice of the void be a valid option? Think of all the decks you could lock down by setting a chalice to 2.
May I apply the danger of cool things here?

Lastly, I have no strong feelings that "when I draw Swords, I hope it can be Jittes." My version is: 1 SoF&I, 1 SoL&S, 2 Jittes. They are rare cases I can win against Angel Stompy, and Equipments are not the decisive part.

Lord Dralnu

04-07-2006, 11:53 PM

Thanks for your report. What I have done this week is tests against Angel Stompy, 4-10 totally. 1-3 with the original format, 2-2 with 4 Emerald Charm in place of Jets, 1-3 with 3 Anarchy and 2 Naturalize in place of Jets and 1 Ape, and 0-2 also with Anarchy and Naturalize, while remains 2 Jets and 2 Bolts. The detailed result proves nothing but showing my bad draws in the last games.

It resembles the cases here. I was annoyed by my bad draw quite often, and Jets may be the only choice to alleviate that. I buried Exalted Angel by 2 bolts in one game, but I know this cannot be relied on. Instead of Naturalize, Emerald Charm seems to be a decent choice here, even from the aspect of versatility(Let Hooligans deal with heavy Artifacts): How about bring its to SB.

So you took stuff out of the MD for naturalize and emerald charm? Or did you just SB some games for testing? I wouldn't tune the deck (or sb depending) for one matchup. We need to just accept AS as a bad match-up and live with being able to stomp most of the rest of the meta. I have to say, at this point myfavorite SB cards are tranquil domain and pyrostatic pillar (for thier respective match-ups).

tsabo_tavoc

04-08-2006, 02:40 AM

So you took stuff out of the MD for naturalize and emerald charm? Or did you just SB some games for testing? I wouldn't tune the deck (or sb depending) for one matchup. We need to just accept AS as a bad match-up and live with being able to stomp most of the rest of the meta. I have to say, at this point myfavorite SB cards are tranquil domain and pyrostatic pillar (for thier respective match-ups).
I can not just accept AS as a bad matchup, for its popularity(more than 20%, the figure is shown somewhere in this forum). So let's take active steps towards it!
And, I have no means of changing the main at present, the reason I took out 2 Jitte is I have only 2.
Naturalize answers Artifacts, Tranquil Domain cannot just like Emerald Charm cannot! Tranquil Domain are far inferior to Charm, a boarder solution with less mana costs!

Quick list of relevant artifacts:
Aether Vial
Jitte
CotV (usually Game 2 - but bad for 1cc deck whenever it hits....)
Cranial Plating (yes, it's still around) & friends
Cursed Scroll
Disk
large fat critters from Core to Naut to......)
This gives me confidence of placing Charm into SB over Naturalize(and none Hooligans also): see these guys can be shut down by needles:tongue:
All right, my SB plan is here:
4*Emerald Charm
4*Pithing Needle
4*Pyrostatic Pillar(Although I have no chance using it yet)
3*Anarchy

Lord Dralnu

04-08-2006, 12:48 PM

I can not just accept AS as a bad matchup, for its popularity(more than 20%, the figure is shown somewhere in this forum). So let's take active steps towards it!
And, I have no means of changing the main at present, the reason I took out 2 Jitte is I have only 2.
Naturalize answers Artifacts, Tranquil Domain cannot just like Emerald Charm cannot! Tranquil Domain are far inferior to Charm, a boarder solution with less mana costs!

This gives me confidence of placing Charm into SB over Naturalize(and none Hooligans also): see these guys can be shut down by needles:tongue:
All right, my SB plan is here:
4*Emerald Charm
4*Pithing Needle
4*Pyrostatic Pillar(Although I have no chance using it yet)
3*Anarchy
Ok, good luck with the AS match-up (hopefully something can help it), but I disagree with one thing. Charm is not better than domain. Charm can kill one enchantment while domain hits all of them (except rancor which you dont want to die). This may not matter much in the AS match-up, but it is very relevent in the rifter match-up. Several times I have blown up thier rift AND humility which is quite good. CA is nice and removing all of thier main cards is nice especially considering most people only run 2-3 rifts.
Pyrostatic Pillar is king of any combo match-up and the NQG match-up. With all thier cantrips and fetches they will end up killing themself and going into burn range with only a couple swings with any creature in.

Lord Dralnu

04-13-2006, 09:35 PM

Sorry for the double post, but this is a new topic and we could use a bump. I've been playing on apprentice alot lately and it seems everyones favorite legacy deck is white stax. I'll say it now I HATE STAX. I was there for like 45 min with him playing no win conditions... all he did was cast 3 geddons 2 wraths a trinisphere and a ghostly prison. Is there any way I can beat them without running 3x shattering sprees in the board? Every time I've played a stax player I've gotten them to like 3-4 and they geddon with a prison in play. I get to two mana but they have ports and they geddon again... I win easily when trinishpere isn't in play stopping my burn, but what else can I do? Sorry about the angryness (if that transfers over) but who in gods name plays stax for FUN? It's more fun to watch paint dry...
Angrily yours,
-LD

Bane of the Living

04-14-2006, 08:33 AM

Shattering Spree isnt that great against Stax. I know people dont believe that at face value. Infact you wouldnt believe it till you tried it. With Trinisphere out you need to pay three to blow up 3 artifacts. I dont often have three artifacts, usually about 2. If I have Chalice out for one then one copy gets countered. Ive also noticed this deck to have red mana problems on occasion, so getting RRR at sorc speed without disruption from Rishadin Ports and Wastelands could be pretty impossible. Throw in some Tangle Wires and Geddons and its the end of your sorc speed Shattering Sprees.

If you continue to see Stax I recommend either Hull Breach or Rack and Ruin as better options. Hull Breach, while still being a sorcery will take out that Ghostly Prison and the (annoying artifact) Rack and Ruin is your best option for killing more than one artifact. I wouldnt say stax is one of your better matches anyways. Your best card is probably Iwamori.

Lego

04-14-2006, 01:03 PM

And I was wondering if Call isn't actually better than Burning Tree Shaman in a lot of matchups.

In some matchups, yes. But the Shaman has the added benefit of being a must kill against Rifter, and absolutely hosing Salvagers to the point where they can't go off with him in play. Overall he's a threat that will put your opponents on tilt much more often, and will randomly win you games that the Calls never could. Blue based control is not a problem in the current Meta, so Call doesn't have a huge chance to shine.

MasterBlaster

04-14-2006, 03:04 PM

Don't forget that Burning-Tree Shaman utterly destroys Psychatog.

Alfred

04-14-2006, 03:09 PM

Don't forget that Burning-Tree Shaman utterly destroys Psychatog.

Psychatog DOES run removal you know.

MasterBlaster

04-14-2006, 08:45 PM

Psychatog DOES run removal you know.

I meant it makes the creature basically useless. I didn't mean that BTS beats the deck single-handedly.

tsabo_tavoc

04-14-2006, 10:06 PM

No much fun. After few adjustments, the AS matchup cannot turn out much better. Still, I will argue that Tranquil Domains may not be the appropriate choice in Rifters, with only 5 aura enchantments.
How are the matchups with Angel Stax and Survival based decks?

kirdape3

04-14-2006, 11:34 PM

Any R/G deck that's losing to Stax isn't doing something right, since you just cast Artifact Mutation and blow open a major piece of their lock (they now have to Wrath or die). If that isn't sufficient, you can reinforce it with Rack and Ruin or Viashino Heretic.

Survival does the same thing that this deck does, but since Survival can guarantee a creature of similar size to your biggest threats every turn they should win in the long game every time. I haven't tested the matchup at all, but in the R/G mirror the deck with the most card advantage elements wins in the long game.

If you want to kill giant flying things, like oh I don't know Exalted Angels, Arashi, the Sky Asunder seems awfully good.

tsabo_tavoc

04-15-2006, 01:19 AM

Any R/G deck that's losing to Stax isn't doing something right, since you just cast Artifact Mutation and blow open a major piece of their lock (they now have to Wrath or die). If that isn't sufficient, you can reinforce it with Rack and Ruin or Viashino Heretic.
Is the matchup positive? What do you mean by "isn't doing something right"?
Er, I have not piles of solution. R&R, Mutation doesn't have their place in SB.

If you want to kill giant flying things, like oh I don't know Exalted Angels, Arashi, the Sky Asunder seems awfully good.
Emerald Charm is included mainly due to its low cost and versatility.
Arashi, Viashino Heretic are good cards, but absolutely have no place here.

Bane of the Living

04-15-2006, 09:03 AM

Chalice for one makes alot of dead cards for this deck. Ghostly Prison can be a nightmare. Wrath is also a pain in the ass should you get a good creature rush. Suppression Field shuts down Jitte. I wouldnt imagine stax is a good matchup. Your best chance is probably Hull Breach so you can take out something like Ghostly Prison and Chalice. Its better than Artifact Mutation cause Stax will just play a new lock piece every turn. Hull Breach gives a you 2 for 1 in one turn on the cheap, so it can play around ports and Tangle Wires to some degree. The mutation tokens will never matter much thanks to Ghostly Prison or Wrath so its just a shitty shatter in most cases.

Your best card in that match is honestly ESG.

tsabo_tavoc

04-15-2006, 10:16 AM

Your best chance is probably Hull Breach so you can take out something like Ghostly Prison and Chalice. Its better than Artifact Mutation cause Stax will just play a new lock piece every turn. Hull Breach gives a you 2 for 1 in one turn on the cheap, so it can play around ports and Tangle Wires to some degree.
Hull Breach is the right candidate facing Stax, and the deck needs to answer chalices, wires, cruibles...
Emerald Charm can not only smash enchantments, but build up the advantage in red zone.
Oh, I have no means of comparing those cards. Maybe, it is Anarchy who get to be removed. It seldom answers Angel Stompy well.
My last point, Jittes/SoF&I split can be better than 4 Jittes, besides Burn, tell me what matchups need the quick 4 mana?

Your best card in that match is honestly ESG.
?

Bane of the Living

04-15-2006, 10:28 AM

Elvish Spirit Guide will allow you to cast shit you normally wont be able to vs stax. Stax has wastelock via Crucible, they have Rishadin Ports, Tangle Wire, Smokestack. Suppression Field makes fetchlands shit, Chalice for 1 cuts off Llanowar Elves. Trinisphere will give you a min cost req of 3cc. ESG will help with that. Alot of my Stax vs Stompy testing seemed dependant on the amount of ESG's Zilla Stompy was drawing.

Lego

04-15-2006, 02:41 PM

I feel like Stax is a goldfish against most decks. It seems like a really inconsistent but powerful combo deck in that regard. If the Stax player draws really well, nothing you can do will stop them. If they don't, you'll win without doing anything. I think basically any answer that you throw in for them will be good. Hull Breach is good, but is sorcery speed, as is Shattering Spree, so they can both be shut down by Rishadan Ports and Tangle Wires. That's why Rack and Ruin gets the vote in my book.

Bane of the Living

04-15-2006, 04:25 PM

Rack and Ruin is harder to cast than Hull Breach. Its also much more narrow thanks to needing 2 targets.

EDIT
Im sick and twisted.

Lord Dralnu

04-15-2006, 05:00 PM

Thanks for the advice. Hull breach does sound like a pretty good plan. In my matches the main problem was turn 2 (or even turn 1) ghostly prison followed up with armageddon. Being able to take out the prison and something else (mox or trinisphere w/e) so I can attack AND lay threats sounds like a good plan.
Seriously though, what kind of sick and twisted human being ENJOYS playing stax? In the 45 min game I played before I said it was retardedly boring to keep playing I never saw a single win condition.

tsabo_tavoc

04-21-2006, 10:40 PM

Seriously though, what kind of sick and twisted human being ENJOYS playing stax? In the 45 min game I played before I said it was retardedly boring to keep playing I never saw a single win condition.
:tongue:
What is your test results then? I haven't tested with it just because I am playing Magic as an amusement, not to get myself painful.

Salvager Game:
Preliminary Results: None yet.

Haven't tested against this yet either, for the same reason as Solidarity. I can't find anyone that plays it. Having played against it with other aggro, I would guess that it's likely to be one of your more positive combo matchups, particularly after sideboard.

Sideboard Strategy: Bring in 4 Pillar, 3 Needles, and 3 Crypts. With this combination of hate, the Salvagers combo should be rendered completely ineffective. They still have the Colossus plan to fall back on, but that's something you can actually race.
Without SB, 3-5 vs Salvager.
With SB, 4 kinds of solutions prevent your BTS to be Cabaled, haha, totally positive!
And, there are mana problems in the deck(due to my poor shuffling skill?).

tsabo_tavoc

04-22-2006, 04:09 AM

I have just gone through the "Swiss Army Knife" thread, which resembles the deck to some degree. The black splash for Dark Confidant, Cabal Therapy and the white splash for Loxodon Hierarch, Swords to Plowshares can do well in the deck with the support of dual lands.
To me, the white splash is aluring, making it stronger against Angel Stompy and Burns.
The paradox is, this deck attracted me for its simplicity. The mixed colour hurt the deck, limiting Elf and ESG, making Wasteland and BTS(itself) a threat.
I would like to hear your voices.

Zilla

04-22-2006, 06:25 PM

To me, the white splash is aluring, making it stronger against Angel Stompy and Burns.
The paradox is, this deck attracted me for its simplicity. The mixed colour hurt the deck, limiting Elf and ESG, making Wasteland and BTS(itself) a threat.
I would like to hear your voices.
It should be noted that I tested the white splash, both in a GRw and GW configuration, for the same reasons you suggested; white offers the tools you need to beat Angel stompy and a few other bad matchups.

The conclusions I came to after thorough testing:

1. The 3 color build was simply too inconsistent. As you mentioned, 3c makes your ESG's and Elves worse. It also requires the usage of more fetches, which in turn weakens your Shamans. It took very little time for me to decide this was definitely not the way to go.

2. The G/W build did in fact improve some of the deck's problem matchups, but not by very much. For example, the Angel Stompy matchup was at least winnable, but still unfavorable. The same was true of other problem matchups - they were improved but not heavily favorable.

3. The G/W build was significantly weaker against many of the deck's already strong matchups. For example, the Goblins matchup became worse. 8x Burn spells are exceedingly important in that matchup, in that they provide necessary spot removal as well as late game reach when the board gets stalled up in a ground war. Further, Kird Ape is higely important in that matchup, providing a solid threat and a very difficult obstacle for first turn Lackey. Without these tools, Goblins is far more challenging for you.

As another example, Pyrostatic Pillar is exceedingly strong in the Thresh matchup, as well as many combo matchups. The white splash doesn't have this tool, and its absence profoundly impacts these matchups in a negative way.

Also, with the lack of burn for lategame reach, the deck became even slower than it already was, but with less inevitability, meaning that other most aggro matchups became more difficult.

The upshot was that the deck got slower and weaker against the majority of the field, while slightly improving the Angel Stompy and Burn matchups. I'm confident that this isn't the direction the deck wants to take. Just as Angel Stompy has a pretty poor game against blue-based control and combo, this deck has pretty poor game against Angel Stompy. In both instances, I think it better to choose a different deck if these poor matchups are prevalent in your meta than it is to try to fundamentally alter them to beat these matchups.

worsel

04-26-2006, 12:25 PM

I saw a guy playing what looked to be a deck like this at FNM in my area last week. It appeared like he had Fireblast in the deck. I'm not sure what was taken out to make room for them.

Zilla, could you comment on the inclusion of Fireblast in this deck. Would it speed up the deck's clock?

Lord Dralnu

04-27-2006, 08:34 PM

I'm not zilla but I can tell you fireblast isn't that great of an idea. The mana base is primarily green already, sacing two mountains isn't very fun even in you think you will win from it. Most of the threats are expensive so you cant really play fireblast before it being a finisher. It only has one damage over chain lightning but I don't think the deck needs any more burn. Just my opinion maybe zilla will have a better explanation.

Zilla

04-28-2006, 06:21 AM

You may have seen a guy playing RG beats with Fireblast in it, but it couldn't have been this deck. Dralnu's right; the deck is heavily green. A deck with this few red sources can't consistently support Fireblast, and without a heavy burn contingent to back it up, Fireblast isn't going to accellerate the deck's clock in any meaningful way.

tsabo_tavoc

04-30-2006, 11:42 AM

The upshot was that the deck got slower and weaker against the majority of the field, while slightly improving the Angel Stompy and Burn matchups. I'm confident that this isn't the direction the deck wants to take. Just as Angel Stompy has a pretty poor game against blue-based control and combo, this deck has pretty poor game against Angel Stompy. In both instances, I think it better to choose a different deck if these poor matchups are prevalent in your meta than it is to try to fundamentally alter them to beat these matchups.
Thanks Zilla. These ideas are quite instrumental to me.
As the AS thread too long for me, I am grateful to your conclusion of the weaknesses of that deck, removing my concerns for its popularity.

Lego

05-01-2006, 12:26 AM

I am grateful to your conclusion of the weaknesses of that deck, removing my concerns for its popularity.

Don't be fooled, the deck is still popular despite it's weaknesses. It has a bad game against one of the top 5 decks, and good game against all the rest, and it's not going to lose to random jank. Zilla was just saying that if you see Angel Stompy in your meta, you probably shouldn't play Zilla Stompy. Otherwise you're fine. He wasn't saying Angel Stompy isn't popular. As long as combo is the least played archetype, Angel Stompy will be viable, and Zilla Stompy will have to recognize that. Don't run away screaming, but take it into concideration.

tsabo_tavoc

05-01-2006, 03:46 AM

Don't be fooled.
Thanks for your reply. I believe it is my wording that has made you unpleasant. My fears were something like Angel Stompy ruling Legacy.

SuckerPunch

06-27-2006, 02:02 AM

tivadar

06-27-2006, 02:08 AM

Sweet, a sig, how'd I miss that one?

Zilla

06-27-2006, 02:43 AM

Zilla, is this deck still competitive.

Or is the list and/or archeatype now outdated.

I am wondering because it seems like no one posted on this deck for a while.

What matchups does this deck do well against and what does it have trouble against.

Is Angel Stompy still this decks only main weakness.

I only ask because I'm considering building a similar deck.

Also the deck seems a bit heavy on mana. Could something like the Spirit Guides be replaced with another card?
Honestly? I haven't tested it in quite awhile. With that said, not a lot has changed in Legacy in the last several months. The deck still beats the same stuff and still loses to the same stuff, for the most part. Angel Stompy and some combo matchups are going to be the most difficult for you. Nothing has changed enough in Angel Stompy or combo to significantly impact these matchups; they're still bad for you. Everything else has stayed similar enough that it's probably reasonably good for you.

As for the deck seeming like it has a lot of mana, I assure you that it's worth it. The deck is really only functioning properly if it has 4 mana by turn 4 at the latest. This assures an Iwamori or an equipped Jitte asap, which is vital to your gameplan. Magma Jet lets you sift out unneeded mana in the lategame, and at worst, ESG serves as a backup beatstick in the lategame. I think if you test this build thoroughly you'll find it to be pretty close to optimal.

Lord Dralnu

06-27-2006, 01:31 PM

Lately I have found combo to be more widely played which is why I had stopped posting and testing the deck. I still play it for fun when my brain hurts too much to play spring tide. The only time I can beat combo is when the players are bad, or you get an early pillar out of the board. I even ESGed one first turn which was pretty funny. If combo is mostly blue based in your area I would suggest trying out scald in the board. Along side pillar or even alone it can be gamebreaking. It isn't bad against thresh either. Siding out Jitte is usually a good idea against combo aswell.

Binary Star

06-28-2006, 05:18 AM

For one thing I'd like to state that this deck is absolutely phenomenal, great job with all the work you've put into it Zilla. This thing rocks, BELIEVE the hype!!

For starters I have really mixed feelings towards burning tree shaman. It's definately a great card, but there's so many cards that have activated abilities in this deck, it can really kick you in the ass sometimes (and often dilute the effectiveness of jitte).

Secondly I think 4 Iwamoris is far too many. Although not too significant, the legendary rule DOES hold some standing ground. There's also been so many games where I've lost to random jank because somebody got out a turn 3 akroma or something. I think that either a 2/2 split or 4 rumbling slums is suitable in most any meta.

I guess that's pretty much all, I'm surprised you didn't mention anything about Hull breach/Choke in your first post. This deck is most likely top 5 material I would say.

scrumdogg

06-28-2006, 09:42 AM

The problem is that combo is getting faster & more consistent. Last week I lost to Iggy Pop Round 1. Game 2 I Chrome Mox'ed a Pyrostatic Pillar into play Turn 1, going first, and still got comboed out on his Turn 1.......what more could I have done?!? I was not playing ZillaStompy but that is the only play the deck would have Turn 1 as well that would be relevant. The mix of Infernal Tutor + LED is very bad news for good aggro decks, imo, how does this deck (and the archetype) deal with this?

tivadar

06-28-2006, 10:00 AM

Well, if decks start consistently (ready 30-50%) comboing turn one, then I think the answer to your question is we'll see some bannings. Even FoW isn't enough to make this acceptable, as the game would quickly degenerate into a T1 game :-P. However, this may have just been a fluke, who knows, so far as I know, a T1 win for iggy is around than 20% (according to their page), which makes two turn one wins around 4%.

Anyways, there are plenty of combo answers, and these involve chalice (for 0 or 1), which is probably not playable in this deck, given that chalice for 1 or 2 really shuts you down. However, crypt can answer iggy very well, and can be played your first turn (for free!). Also, don't forget sphere of resistance, which is the bane of most combo decks.

As for the archetype, given that gro is still huge, I don't think they'll have much problems dealing with quick combo given their counterbase (4 FoW, X Daze). It may make goblins go poof a bit, but that seems to already be happening. Other aggro decks (what are the other *good* aggro decks?) will probably have to go more the route of gro and do aggro control. Rifter is going to take some hits, but deadguy will do just fine.

Lord Dralnu

06-29-2006, 02:09 PM

For starters I have really mixed feelings towards burning tree shaman. It's definately a great card, but there's so many cards that have activated abilities in this deck, it can really kick you in the ass sometimes (and often dilute the effectiveness of jitte).
BTS and Jitte interaction doesnt matter. I often take one to equip a jitte onto BTS. You still get counters without taking damage. They have two options, kill BTS (meaning less removal for other creatures and your jitte can be used), orlet him swing in and gain you counters. If they chose number one its clear sailing. If they choose number two you can still take 3-4 damage and kill them. BTS's 4 toughness and ability to speed p the clock against other decks can't be denied. You are the aggro and can afford to take a few dmg.

Secondly I think 4 Iwamoris is far too many. Although not too significant, the legendary rule DOES hold some standing ground. There's also been so many games where I've lost to random jank because somebody got out a turn 3 akroma or something. I think that either a 2/2 split or 4 rumbling slums is suitable in most any meta.
Game one if you are not sure what they are playing you are better off just playing your three drops and jitte rather than going all out with iwamori. It will prevent you from getting 2 for oned by removal (you usually use ESG to play iwamori) and giving them some random legend. Yes, there are times when you may have two iwamoris in hand and can only play one because of his legendary status. Usually you wouldn't want two on the board anyway. If you play two bombs at once (say you have slum instead) and they wrath you have nothing else to do. You WANT to hold back the second one anyway. Rumbing Slum is also red which can be a big hinderance. Many people use protection from red creatures and runes. I find i prefer only having a few red damage sources because of this. Iwamori's trample is also important. It lets you beat other aggro decks because he is huge and will get damage through unless they double/triple block alowing you to get CA (which is rare in this type of deck). Yes, you can sometimes get a rancor on it, but they you are setting up for being two for oned with swords (which they WILL cast on him if they have it).
Anyway those are jsut some of my experiences with the deck. I hope they help you out a little bit.

SuckerPunch

07-23-2006, 03:11 PM

Here's a post from another thread...

After futzing around with Dryad Sligh for a while, I decided to ditch the Dryads. They can sometimes be amazing if dropped on the 2nd turn, but they also tend to be a terrible topdeck. I still believe Rg is the best build for Sligh, however. Kird apes are an obvious inclusion, and the Scab-Clan Maulers have proven themselves worthy over weeks of play-testing. Occasionally, the Maulers are a bad topdeck, but not nearly so often as the Dryads. What, then, to replace the Dyrads with? I decided to go with go with the Burning-Tree Shaman. Yes, it has anti-synergy with some of the other cards in the deck, but he's such an effective beatstick that it's worth the drawback. Besides, the drawback often affects your opponent as well. Vial Goblins, in particular, does not like taking a point of damage everytime they use an activated ability (i.e wastelands, ports, vials, kiki-jiki, even cycling a gempalm!). Another new inclusion in the deck: Flametongue Kavu. Jesus, I don't know what took me so long to try this card in this deck. It's freaking amazing! It has the power to single-handedly reverse a negative board position.

Here's my current decklist:

4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothill
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
1 Forest
7 Mountain

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Skyshroud Elite
4 Scab-Clan Mauler
4 Burning-Tree Shaman
2 Flametongue Kavu

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
3 Fireblast

You'll notice this build is lighter on burn than most of the builds discussed in this thread. Namely, no Chain Lightning. It took me a while to realize this, but Chain Lightning just ain't quite good enough. Obviously, the sorcery speed reduces its usefulness as creature removal, and yes, occasionally I would find myself in a situation where I couldn't cast it because it would give my opponent a chance to throw it back at one of my creatures (or even at my head for fatal damage). I've always been fond of Seal of Fire as an alternate source of burn/removal, but ultimately I decided that adding an additional creature threat was the better route to go. Hence, the Skyshroud Elites. They're basically Kird Apes #5-7. Kird apes are good, last I heard. Even when your opponent has bigger, better creatures, you can often stand them off with a couple of Apes. Gro does not like trading a Werebear or Nimble Mongoose for a Kird Ape.

24 lands, including 4 Wastelands, is perfect. This build is very true to the traditional Sligh mana curve. While many "modern" Sligh decks run just 17-22 lands, this deck needs the extra land to get out those B-T Shamans and Kavus while working around enemy Wastelands and Dazes and keeping mana open for Lavamancers and burn spells.

Cursed Scroll has no place in this deck. Too mana intensive. Far too often would I find myself putting one into play only to never use it or perhaps use it once.

Final word on Fireblast. Three is the correct number. Period end of sentence. When running four, I would often find myself with two in my hand when I wanted 0-1 of them. Three is perfect. Trust me.

This build has real stamina, and can win long games. I have done quite a bit of playtesting of this build vs Vial Goblins (mono-red) and UGW Gro over the last week. It is favored in both matchups by about a 60-40 margin, perhaps even 65-35. For real. However, the combo matchups are not good. The only hope is the sideboard or poor play/bad luck on the part of your opponent.

This deck did well upon testing Volt, and for me atleast seems far faster and smoother than Zilla Stompy had been. It still can't consistently race combo, but it's still so fast that if the combo player doesn't get a great hand it can race him, similar to how Burn can sometimes beat Solidarity.

The similarities are very obvious. But given how Zilla Stompy has fallen out flavor lately as a result of being too slow to keep up with combo, and perhaps also too easily having it's high cc requirements disrupted by Deadguy...

I think Zilla Stompy can learn from this deck, and in turn this build can learn a bit from all the testing, work and knowledge accumilated by those who played Zilla Stompy. Things like how often Skyshoud Elite is worthless, how often Burning Tree Shaman is too expensive and how often Mogg Fanatic (or Grim Lavamancer) doesnt hold it's own with the rest of the deck.

So I would interested to hear how the people who tested Zilla Stompy, esp Zilla himself would improve on Volt's deck without robbing it of it's blazing speed. Perhaps a hybrid can be reached.

I know that Mogg Fanatic, Grim Lavamancer, Fireblast, Jackal Pup and Skyshroud Elites, all of these cards were tested when building Zilla Stompy, but so much has changed since the deck's inception, that I was wondering if these cards warrant reconsideration.

And there are some new cards that I'm not sure have been considered in either decks such as Call of the Herd in place of Burning Tree Shaman. He usually has the same clock, but helps you recover much better after a sweeper. Plus when you start topdecking lands, you'll be glad he gives you something to cast again. It really helps with that "stamina" thing.

Volt

07-23-2006, 04:51 PM

I've posted a reply to SuckerPunch in the Sligh thread. Unless the moderators think this discussion properly belongs here, I'm going to refrain from cross-posting. I understand there are some similarities between Zilla Stompy and my Sligh build, which therefore invites some comparisons. However, it was not my intention to "improve" Zilla Stompy in any way. I consider my build to be a proper Sligh deck, with a green splash.

TheDarkshineKnight

07-25-2006, 10:34 PM

Soooooooooo, it's been a few months, and now that Coldsnap and Dissension are out, is there anything we should put in to Zilla Stompy, uh, Zilla?

SuckerPunch

07-26-2006, 12:12 AM

Perhaps Scab Clan Mauler, or Grim Lavamancer or heck even FTK or Fireblast?

Volt

07-26-2006, 10:32 AM

Perhaps Scab Clan Mauler, or Grim Lavamancer or heck even FTK or Fireblast?

Scab Clan Mauler is a somewhat conditional card. It works well in my sligh deck because I have lots of 1-drops, including most importantly Mogg Fanatic. I doubt it would work as well in Zilla's deck. Besides, as he has stated, the deck doesn't really need any 2-drops. Usually, it's dropping a 3cc creature on the 2nd turn.

Zilla Stompy doesn't put very many cards in its graveyard, so Grim Lavamancer doesn't fit either.

Too many non-mountain lands in this deck to be running Fireblast.

FTK is probably something Zilla has considered, but left on the cutting room floor with good reason. I'd be interested to hear what he has to say about it.

dre4m

07-26-2006, 12:05 PM

I beleive FTK would put too many cards in the 4cc range, which could be much better filled by cards such as BTS and Troll Ascetic. Maybe it could be put in if it became good against more decks, but right now Iwamori is a huge 4cc guy that can stand in front of goblins all day.

Shugyosha

07-26-2006, 01:14 PM

I think Wilderness Elemental from Coldsnap can be a nice addition to the SB against *****.

Although it is conditional it is usually 3/3 Trample at least and forces the opponent to consider landdrops and fetching nonbasics.

I play alot against ***** and boarding +2 Wilderness Elemental -2 Kird Apes seems good so far.

worsel

07-26-2006, 02:38 PM

Here are two builds from players at my local store. Not sure what their sideboards are. Both decks have done very well, as they are both very quick.

--------------------
RG Beats#1:

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
4 Stomping Ground
4 Wasteland
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Scab-Clan Mauler
4 River Boa
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dryad Sophisticate
2 Ball Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Incinerate
3 Fireblast
3 Hidden Herd

--------------------
RG Beats #2

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
4 Stomping Ground
4 Wasteland
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Scab-Clan Mauler
4 River Boa
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Troll Ascetic
3 Burning-Tree Shaman
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Incinerate
3 Fireblast
2 Chrome Mox
--------------------

Maybe something can be learned/taken from these decks.

erdjinn

07-28-2006, 11:44 AM

Hi Zilla,
I liked your deck at first sight so I've built it with only Phantom Centaur for Iwamori (only because I didn't have them).
As a note the Centaur did its work as well but maybe I haven't tested enough. Anyway, that's not the point.

Decks I played against (and won):
- MonoR Goblins
- BU Ichorid
- GR Stompy (but not as good as this deck:smile:)

The point is that I took a lot of damage from BTS and Jitte. I really love both the cards but the combo is terrible. Probably I wouldn't run 4 Jittes.
You said that it is often a turn faster than SoFI but I don't agree.
Let's say I have exactly 4 mana so I can cast and equip the Jitte. I would get the counters but I'll have to way the next turn to use them.
So it's more or less like casting SoFI and equipping next turn.

I usually like Jitte more than SoFI because you don't have to deal damage to your opponent but you run Rancor and Iwamori so you may trample the damage.

Another card I would like you to comment on is SoLS. I know it is generally worse than SoFI but if your bad matchuo are against white builds and burn maybe it is worth running it.

Just my 2 cents. Waiting for your reply.

Thank you for posting this deck.

Bye,
ERDjinn

Zilla

07-28-2006, 06:43 PM

The dissynergy between BTS and Jitte has been noted many times before, but they both win so many games by themselves or together that it has always been irrellevant in my experience. I'd recommend strongly against dropping the 4th Jitte. I'd replace BTS with Call of the Herd before doing that, if I really thought the poor synergy between BTS and Jitte were a problem, but I don't, really.

As for SoLS, I can't really think of a matchup where you'd want one over SoFI really, because most decks where you need creature recursion are board control decks with mass creature removal. If all your threats are in the yard, you have nothing to attach SoLS to, making it largely irrellevant. I'd rather beat these types of decks with Winter Orb or Flashfires from the board.

Also, like SoFI, SoLS is outside the deck's curve. You really want to be dropping a significant threat on turn 2 or 3 and casting and equipping Jitte on the following turn. SoFI and SoLS tend to prevent this, due to the extra mana they require. In effect they slow down the deck a full turn, and make it more controlling than it wants to be, since it's basically a purely aggressive deck.

MattH

07-28-2006, 07:47 PM

tsabo_tavoc

07-31-2006, 02:48 AM

Umezawa's Jitte is just the key point of the deck racing stompy decks, while BTS is an essential part against many combos and affinity. The 2 cards can be a sharp division line between Sligh variant and Zilla Stompy.
I will have 4 Jittes in the deck, as Gobs and black stompy usually have 2 of them now, and many decks are aware of and well prepared for this horrible artifact.

I agree with SuckerPunch only on the point about lowering the deck's mana curve, hence a better matchup against Deadguy. I currently run 2 Ravenous Baloth and 2 Tin Street Hooligan in place of 4 Iwomaris. After many tests, Hooligan prooves its value in the deck due to its none maindeck artifact-destruction spells. Ensanaring Bridge, Trinsphere, Smokestack, and Chalice of the Void are great threats, not to mention it can destroy a Vial, a Mox, a Jitte, most of these cards are prevalent in the modern meta.

Zilla

07-31-2006, 07:16 PM

I agree with SuckerPunch only on the point about lowering the deck's mana curve, hence a better matchup against Deadguy. I currently run 2 Ravenous Baloth and 2 Tin Street Hooligan in place of 4 Iwomaris. After many tests, Hooligan prooves its value in the deck due to its none maindeck artifact-destruction spells. Ensanaring Bridge, Trinsphere, Smokestack, and Chalice of the Void are great threats, not to mention it can destroy a Vial, a Mox, a Jitte, most of these cards are prevalent in the modern meta.
It should be noted that your changes do essentially nothing to lower the deck's curve. Replacing 2 4cc cards with 2 2cc ones won't effect the way the deck plays in any meaningful way. Besides, Deadguy is already a positive matchup, in that all your threats are better than theirs, and you run more solid threats than they run removal.

As for the necessity of running maindecked artifact hate, that's an obvious metagame call. In my meta (and many others, I'm sure), Ensnaring Bridge, Trinisphere, and Smokestack are non-existent. Chalice is present in Faerie Stompy, but that's not really a huge deal. Chalice for 1 does hurt a bit, but not as much as other Stompy-like decks, because this one only runs 3 sets of 1cc cards. Chalice for 2 only shuts down 8 cards, which is less than the number of cards it shuts down in their own deck, so it's basically irrellevant at that setting. They can't afford to set Chalice at 3 because it shuts off most of their deck.

In any case, the Iwamori/Slum/Phantom Centaur slot is very important against most aggressive decks in the format, as it provides a difficult-to-remove threat which trumps most or all of your opponent's creatures. Removing them for smaller utility creatures takes you towards a more controlling role--a role for which this deck is woefully unequipped. Only in an extremely artifact-heavy environment would I swap in Hooligans, and it would probably be in place of BTS, not Iwamori.

CleverPetriDish

07-31-2006, 08:37 PM

Zilla

07-31-2006, 08:43 PM

There is a guy in my stire who has all his creatures with rear ends greater than 3 and Pyroclasm main. That works well for him. Is this something that you people have tried? Is it worth investigating?
For this deck? Not particularly, and I'll explain why: all the decks that Pyroclasm is good against (read: Goblins, Deadguy) are already very positive matchups for the deck. On the other hand, we have the difficult matchups (Rifter, Solidarity, Iggy Pop, Salvager Game, Angel Stompy, Burn), where Pyroclasm is not only not good, it's completely dead. Essentially, maindeck Pyroclasm will vaguely improve positive matchups and significantly hurt the difficult ones. Bad plan.

TheDarkshineKnight

08-01-2006, 01:03 AM

It should be noted that your changes do essentially nothing to lower the deck's curve. Replacing 2 4cc cards with 2 2cc ones won't effect the way the deck plays in any meaningful way. Besides, Deadguy is already a positive matchup, in that all your threats are better than theirs, and you run more solid threats than they run removal.

As for the necessity of running maindecked artifact hate, that's an obvious metagame call. In my meta (and many others, I'm sure), Ensnaring Bridge, Trinisphere, and Smokestack are non-existent. Chalice is present in Faerie Stompy, but that's not really a huge deal. Chalice for 1 does hurt a bit, but not as much as other Stompy-like decks, because this one only runs 3 sets of 1cc cards. Chalice for 2 only shuts down 8 cards, which is less than the number of cards it shuts down in their own deck, so it's basically irrellevant at that setting. They can't afford to set Chalice at 3 because it shuts off most of their deck.

In any case, the Iwamori/Slum/Phantom Centaur slot is very important against most aggressive decks in the format, as it provides a difficult-to-remove threat which trumps most or all of your opponent's creatures. Removing them for smaller utility creatures takes you towards a more controlling role--a role for which this deck is woefully unequipped. Only in an extremely artifact-heavy environment would I swap in Hooligans, and it would probably be in place of BTS, not Iwamori.

I am going to assume that Iwamori would be preferable to Rumbling Slum in an unknown metagame, correct?

Zilla

08-01-2006, 02:06 AM

Probably. The two are roughly comparable, but Iwamori's trampling makes it more reliable against the aggro mirror and its lack of red makes it better against Angel Stompy.

erdjinn

08-02-2006, 07:57 AM

Hi Zilla,
How's the matchup against Faerie Stompy?
They have a lot of annoying artifacts (CotV, Needle, SoFI and Jitte) maindeck and the suggested side has only a few answers (2 Naturalize, maybe 3 Needle).
They also have pro-red creatures and that's bad news for us.
Troll is a bomb but it's somehow alone in the battle, and with a Needle is much less broken.
If you had to play against it, what would you side out/in?
Would you recommend running Rack and Ruin in the side? And what about Whirlwind?
Bye,
ERDjinn

Zilla

08-02-2006, 07:55 PM

How's the matchup against Faerie Stompy?
Totally untested, and hard to predict. Their Pro:Red creatures are going to be a pain, but there are only 2 of them in the maindeck. By and large, your threats are bigger than theirs, pretty much accross the board. That's a point in your favor. They have a lot of Jittes to counter yours. That's a point in theirs. You have Rancors to force through damage. Point in yours. The have Chalice, which isn't game-ending, but set at one will probably be a real pain. Point in theirs. Iwamori is an unstoppable wrecking ball of asskickery against them. Point in yours. With all the accelleration, they're probably a bit faster than you are. Point in theirs. With Tomb damage, they're helping you win the damage race. Point in yours.

There are too many factors involved for me to guess at it, and I wouldn't give you SB advice based purely on conjecture, except to say that I don't think I'd start running super narrow cards like R&R or Whirlwind for a single matchup unless that matchup is extremely prevalent in your metagame. Shattering Spree, Artifact Mutation, or Tin-Street Hooligans would probably be my choice if I were siding specifically to beat Faerie Stompy. REB wouldn't hurt either, as long as you have artifact destruction to get rid of Chalice @ 1.

Like I said though, I'd have to test it myself. And honestly, with Angel Stompy gaining apparent popularity right now, I'm not sure I'd risk Zilla Stompy at a large tournament.

tsabo_tavoc

08-02-2006, 08:23 PM

Winter Orb beats board control decks like Rifter, Wombat, and Train Wreck Cold.

Edit: rewrite my question.
I want to board 3 Winter Orbs to better the Rifter, Landstill, and Train Wreck matchup. I want some analysis, or better, some test results to show if Orbs worth the inclusion in Zilla Stompy's Sideboard.

Zilla

08-02-2006, 11:46 PM

I'm not sure I understand the question as it's worded. If you're asking how Orb affects Zilla Stompy, it's not all that bad. You have Elves and ESG's to help get around it, and because the deck only really needs a single threat to win, it can afford to wait a few turns to untap the land it needs against slower board control decks.

tsabo_tavoc

08-03-2006, 12:56 AM

I'm not sure I understand the question as it's worded.
Sorry for that and I have editted #182.

I will test Winter Orb. But as Landstill, Rifter hard to meet on MWS, I want some suggestions soon to help my performance at a local Type 1.5 match.

erdjinn

08-03-2006, 06:37 AM

Totally untested, and hard to predict. Their Pro:Red creatures are going to be a pain, but there are only 2 of them in the maindeck. By and large, your threats are bigger than theirs, pretty much accross the board. That's a point in your favor. They have a lot of Jittes to counter yours. That's a point in theirs. You have Rancors to force through damage. Point in yours. The have Chalice, which isn't game-ending, but set at one will probably be a real pain. Point in theirs. Iwamori is an unstoppable wrecking ball of asskickery against them. Point in yours. With all the accelleration, they're probably a bit faster than you are. Point in theirs. With Tomb damage, they're helping you win the damage race. Point in yours.

There are too many factors involved for me to guess at it, and I wouldn't give you SB advice based purely on conjecture, except to say that I don't think I'd start running super narrow cards like R&R or Whirlwind for a single matchup unless that matchup is extremely prevalent in your metagame. Shattering Spree, Artifact Mutation, or Tin-Street Hooligans would probably be my choice if I were siding specifically to beat Faerie Stompy. REB wouldn't hurt either, as long as you have artifact destruction to get rid of Chalice @ 1.

Like I said though, I'd have to test it myself. And honestly, with Angel Stompy gaining apparent popularity right now, I'm not sure I'd risk Zilla Stompy at a large tournament.

The matchup is close, and whoever goes first has a big advantage.
Your conjectures are all corrects, except for Iwamori that is not that broken: if they have an equipped creature across the table they may trade 1 for 1 with him.
I confirm CotV for 1 is a real pain:cry: , and I see more and more decks running CotV to fight Threshold and Combo.

I agree Whirlwind is a very narrow card but fliers are a real pain for this deck, especially if they have a couple of SoFI attached to them! :eek: Anyway it isn't probably worth the spot in the side.
On the other hand R&R seems not so narrow to me if you think of Affinity, Stax, combo and all the XXX stompy decks.

I'll be doing more playtesting and LYK the results.
Should you try the matchup PLMK.
Thanks,
ERDjinn

tsabo_tavoc

08-03-2006, 07:40 AM

Hi erdjinn, welcome to the Source and welcome to this thread.

I have met a deck similar to Faerie Stompy, with no Trinket Mage and CotV, running some CS cards including Vexing Sphinx and Perilous Research. As Zilla suggested, the game is about even for either deck.

I can understand your hate to flyers, but you donnot have to remove them. The correct way is to put pressure on the board so that the flyers dare not to attack. And for the SB plan, Naturalize is a decent choice. I board out some Bolts even though my opponent's deck didn't run CotV, for only Sea Drake in its rage and the inability to Scry which help the race a lot.

Flyers themselves are not horrible for Zilla Stompy, it is the equipping that beat us down. Hence, board in Pithing Needle is the next choice. I am not sure if it works well for Faerie Stompy, but Needle greatly improve my Affinity matchup--keep Cranial Platting away from Ornithopter and shut down Arcbound Ravager.

erdjinn

08-03-2006, 09:34 AM

Hi Tsabo Tavoc,
thank you. You're very nice.

You're right but with a CotV set to 1 it is hard to put pressure. Anyway I've dropped the idea of Whirlwind. Too limited.
You're right about equipping also. The worst cards they have are SoFI and Jitte. We can kill their Jitte by dropping our :tongue: so that's not so bad. SoFI is worse because we have no answer maindeck and they can Misdi our Naturalizes :eek: (at worst against their own moxes) after sideboarding. I had 2 R&R in my side and I really liked them. 2 cards for one and no fear of Misdi. :cool:
They can also be boarded in against Affinity, of course. Plenty of targets there. :laugh:
(Needle is unplayable if they have CoTV set to 1 and has only a little impact against SoFI. I wouldn't board these in if I had another option.)
So you suggest Lighting Bolt is the card to side out. I choose it too.
Of course I lost a very close 3rd game with my opponent was sitting at 3 life! :smile:
Thank you again for you suggestions.
Zilla what will you bring to a large tournament? Threshold?
Bye,
ERDjinn

Lego

08-03-2006, 01:49 PM

Zilla what would you bring to a large tournament? Threshold?

He'd bring Angel Stompy, obviously. It's Zilla Stompy without the bad matchups. It mauls Goblins, is roughly even with Threshold, and totally trashes all other aggro decks, while maintaining a winnable matchup (if you play well) against board control. The trade off is that you can't win against Solidarity. You just can't. You can beat some other combo where cards like Swords to Plowshares, Pithing Needle or Tormod's Crypt are relevant, but even with a heavy anti-Solidarity sideboard, you're not going to pull better than 50% pre-board, after having already lost game 1.

It's probably a pretty good deck to bring to any large tournament. Goblins, Solidarity, and Threshold are also fine, I've just got a personal bias towards Angel Stompy.

E per concludere, come va in italia? Sono tornato qui un anno fa, e mi manca l'italia più che posso spiegare. Di dove sei? Hai trovato un posto dove giocare? Non ho trovate quasi niente per Legacy in Sicilia.

Shugyosha

08-03-2006, 02:37 PM

I tested 2x Whirlwind in the SB a bit and its pretty uneffective. You never draw it when you need it and as said its really narrow.

I now tried 2x Choke instead and I really like it so far. It helps alot against Fairy Stompy, Solidarity (together with Pyrostatic Pillar) and Landstill (which I have to face from time to time). On top of that it improves the Threshold matchup, too.

Zilla

08-04-2006, 12:06 AM

Zilla what will you bring to a large tournament? Threshold?
This is kind of off topic, but if I were going to a tournament tomorrow I'd try to get an idea of what the field looks like before deciding. I've got Deadguy, Pox, RGSA, Goblins, Burn, Zilla Stonpy, UGr Thresh, and Angel Stompy built, so it would be one of those. Most likely Angel Stompy or Thresh because I'm most confident with their playstyles and their matchups against the field.

SuckerPunch

08-04-2006, 09:58 AM

I've got Deadguy, Pox, RGSA, Goblins, Burn, Zilla Stonpy, UGr Thresh, and Angel Stompy built, so it would be one of those.

Lol, I've got Deadguy, SuiBlack, Vintage Oath, Stompy, Burn, Zilla Stompy, UGW Thres and Fairie Stompy built. I'm guessing I'm the only one that finds that kind of funny.

I'm interested to hear more about how good you think Pox (and Fairie Stompy) is in this environment Zilla. I am seriously considering upgrading my SuiBlack deck to Pox.

dre4m

08-04-2006, 11:58 AM

Lol, I've got Deadguy, SuiBlack, Vintage Oath, Stompy, Burn, Zilla Stompy, UGW Thres and Fairie Stompy built. I'm guessing I'm the only one that finds that kind of funny.

I'm interested to hear more about how good you think Pox (and Fairie Stompy) is in this environment Zilla. I am seriously considering upgrading my SuiBlack deck to Pox.
I am seriously wondering what this has to do with this thread. I guess it has a lot to do with the "Zilla" part, but not the "Stompy" part, much less those two put together.

Zilla: Do you think that Zompy could survive now that Solidarity is more popular? Would you replace Iwamori with a faster creature or possibly Berserk if you were headed to a Solidarity-dominated tournament?

SuckerPunch

08-04-2006, 05:30 PM

Lol, sorry that I went off topic for a post.

Though to be fair, it was no more offtopic than Zilla's post.

Would you replace Iwamori with a faster creature or possibly Berserk if you were headed to a Solidarity-dominated tournament?

There's no conceivable way this deck can beat two games against Solidarity with even a halfway decent pilot, unless you get extraordinarily lucky.

And I think that's fairly obvious to most anyone that tried this deck. So why in gods name would you even consider taking this deck to a Solidarity heavy tournament.

Zilla

08-04-2006, 07:17 PM

Do you think that Zompy could survive now that Solidarity is more popular?
It depends how long it stays popular. The field varies so widely from metagame to metagame now that even if Solidarity is extremely popular, there will still be plenty of metagames where it's completely absent, so Zilla Stompy is still (theoretically) viable there.

Would you replace Iwamori with a faster creature or possibly Berserk if you were headed to a Solidarity-dominated tournament?
If I were going to a Solidarity dominated tournament, I'd replace Iwamori with Nimble Mongoose, Troll with Werebear, Jitte with Meddling Mage, Forests with Islands, Mountains with Tundras... you get the idea.

There's no conceivable way this deck can beat two games against Solidarity with even a halfway decent pilot, unless you get extraordinarily lucky.
This isn't technically true. The matchup is winnable with the 4 Pillar/4 REB sideboard strategy. That isn't to say that it's positive, but it's not a total blowout either.

TheDarkshineKnight

08-05-2006, 12:04 PM

Soooooooo, wait a sec. While Angel Stompy is better in general in a random metagame, Zilla Stompy has a better match against Threshold and Solidarity? If so, why in God's name isn't anyone seriously running this, considering the ungodly amounts of these decks in the format?

SuckerPunch

08-06-2006, 10:47 PM

I think you have that mixed up.

Zilla Stompy does not have a good matchup versus Solidarity even after the sideboard (but Zilla Stompy isn't bad against a lot of random decks). Neither does Angel Stompy

If anything, more people should be running Fairie Stompy as it DOES have a pretty good matchup against combo and the entire field.

erdjinn

08-07-2006, 06:38 AM

E per concludere, come va in italia? Sono tornato qui un anno fa, e mi manca l'italia più che posso spiegare. Di dove sei? Hai trovato un posto dove giocare? Non ho trovate quasi niente per Legacy in Sicilia.

Just a few lines because I don't want to go off-topic again.
I'm from Parma. And there are only a couple small official tournaments every year. I've played one of them last year and split the final. :cool: (Not a great tournament I guess, only a few good players). I was playing UG Madness but now I'm looking for a better aggro deck and Zilla Stompy seems promising.

Coming back to the topic I do think faerie stompy will become more and more popular. But this deck can do quite well against it with just a little adjustment of the side.
For the 4cc slot I'd recommend Iwamori or other G creatures instead of R or GR ones. There are too many proR creatures / enchantments / artifacts around.

noobslayer

08-07-2006, 10:52 AM

Read my report. With increasing numbers of silidarity and other combo, Zompy's worst match-ups become more prelevant. Also, you can beat Solidarity, as I did beat David Gearheart this weekend. Those games revolved around pyrostatic pillar. You need to agressively mulligan into them. Also, I think you'll see an increase in the amunt of burn decks being played, and after the recent Legacy article, announcing Angel Stompy is a top tier deck (already knew this), you can expect all your bad match-ups to increase in presence across the board.

BoardinCharlie

08-07-2006, 12:12 PM

dre4m

08-07-2006, 01:23 PM

I have recently fiddled with this deck in my guantlet and it definately has proven itself to be a force. I was wondering, since we have rancors and Jitte's it seems like Ohran Viper could pop up in this deck...maybe in a lower number replacing the fatties. I know that we want a clock, but couldn't drawing a card *burn or creature* virtually increase our clock? Possibly cutting a Jitte or something else to add in 2 more burn spells *chain lightning* to remove blockers if it can't trample over or get through on its own. This would lower the curve, add a threat in the war against attrition. Not to mention it takes out whatever it hits *if damage is assigned*.

Any thoughts?
Viper is a good card, but totally inapplicable in this deck. Zompy wants to deal damage, as quickly and efficiently as possible, and a 3-mana double green 1/3 just does not make the cut. Troll Ascetic and BTS already fill this slot and do a damn good job beating your opponents' faces in. By turn 3 or 4, when this guy goes active, if he doesn't get killed (that's another thing, BTS and Troll are highly resistant to removal) he may draw you a couple cards, while the other creatures will have delt six damage.

erdjinn

08-09-2006, 10:03 AM

Hi,
I'm trying Phantom Centaur instead of Iwamori and I found it interesting:
pros:
- with Humility in play it is still a 4/4 creature
- untargettable by Vindicate and other black spells
- unblockable by Psychatog and other black creatures
- can survive 2 Piledrivers/Incinerators
- can survive double Mongoose/Werebear block
- no drawback (against random decks)

These are the decks to beat (only missing Solidarity but there is no difference because they both have 5 power)

Any comment?

Lord Dralnu

08-09-2006, 12:57 PM

Phantom Centaur does work great. If in your meta you find it more useful than iwamori feel free to run it. The main bonus to iwamori is he has trample(the bigger ass helps a little too). He doesn't lose his power after being blocked, he is however easier to spot remove. The main reason most people don't run the Centuar is because he can be chumped to death and therefore will not connect against goblins or zoo etc. Sure he can block several times, but this deck wants to be on the offensive most of the time. (let them swing if you have an active jitte you will win regardless). I have found iwamori's drawback to almost never come up. Sometimes against goblins they will drop a kiki-jiki off of it but that is a rare occasion. If you suspect a legend hold him back until they drop it themselves. You don't need to play every card in your hand with this deck (usually you don't want to). Don't get me wrong, centuar makes a good replacement for iwamori in many situations. I tend to prefer trample over, it takes 3 non stp removal spells or chump blockers to kill me. Either one is an acceptable creature however.
-LD

SuckerPunch

08-09-2006, 01:14 PM

According to Zilla's testing results...

this deck has massively favorable matchups against goblins, thres, pikula and a ton of other decks, but loses to burn and angel stompy.

Considering that only about two of those latter two decks show up in any tourney, I don't care much that it loses to those.

The main thing is the lack of any results against solidarity. Its obviously unfavorable, but assuming you run a lot of sideboard hate (a lot more hate than you run right now), X Pillar, 4 Sirocco, X Scald, would this matchup (the only commonly played matchup this deck has problems iwth) be made very much favorable?

Has anyone here testing the solidarity matchup with a hateful sideboard, because fear of that one matchup seems to the main reason most people are hesistant to play this deck. And if a well tuned, more hateful sideboard can put up decent percentages, this deck can be viable again.

In terms of curve, strength, consistency, everything, zilla truly hit a homerun building this deck. I would love to see it be a contendor again.

Zilla

08-09-2006, 06:29 PM

Has anyone here testing the solidarity matchup with a hateful sideboard, because fear of that one matchup seems to the main reason most people are hesistant to play this deck. And if a well tuned, more hateful sideboard can put up decent percentages, this deck can be viable again.
I don't think this is precisely true. Certainly fear of Solidarity is a reason not to play it, but I'm pretty certain you can get that matchup to about 50/50 with 8 anti-Solidarity cards in the board. I think it's wrong to discount the deck's bad matchup against Angel Stompy as irrellevent. In my mind, that's the bigger reason not to run it right now. Angel Stompy has in the last several months gained a great deal of popularity and is seeing a lot of play in widely varying metas.

Strategically, Angel Stompy is very similar to this deck: play a threat, equip the threat, disrupt a little, ride the threat to victory. They're both primarily aggro decks designed to beat other aggro and aggro control by having slightly slower but significantly bigger threats. Their matchups are very similar; Zilla Stompy is probably slightly better in the Thresh matchup, but not a whole lot better against Solidarity, assuming both decks are running 8 or more anti-combo sideboards. This deck flat-out loses to Angel Stompy though, and Angel Stompy has a better Burn matchup as well.

Basically, as long as Angel Stompy remains a popular deck, I'm not sure this one can be a very strong choice. If Angel Stompy were out of the picture, though, it would be a solid contender, even with Solidarity in the mix.

SuckerPunch

08-09-2006, 07:24 PM

Have you testing Shattering Spree in the board against angel stompy at all?

You can take out multiple pieces of equipment for just a couple of mana. Artifact Mutation and Oxidize are also good.

Obviously Pithing Needle is great against lots of decks and can neutralize equipment too.

I'm sure there's some sideboard tech that can make angel stompy favorable too.

But honestly, I would worry about the Solidarity match a lot more. Solidarity now seems to have 10-16 decks in any tournaments, angel stompy usually has 5 at most. So you might run into one angel stompy match if you get unlucky, that's not that bad.

Lord Dralnu

08-09-2006, 08:11 PM

dre4m

08-10-2006, 07:34 AM

In the month or so that I played zompy in my meta, which had some Affinity and 5/3 in addition go Goblins and Zoo, I learned to love having Artifact Mutation at my disposal. It adds threats to your board while eliminating an opposing obstacle, usually something like a sceptre or Pithing Needle, but sometimes a Sword of F&I or the very, very juicy Myr Enforcer.

tivadar

08-10-2006, 07:51 AM

Shatting spree and co have been tested. There are several things holding spree back, the red intensiveness is one. The big thing about it (and the others) is that by adding them you are removing your threats which, quite frankly, AS has a larger abundance of. Still it is worth running some kind of hate from the board. I tend to prefer hull breach (as do a few others). It isn't as red intensive as spree, doesn't get killed by chalise at 1 in other match-ups, and can take out both an equipment and/or parallax wave. Just don't count on being able to kill a few equipment to sway the match-up too much.

Just to correct you, shattering spree doesn't get beaten by chalice at 1 either. The initial spell gets copied, but the remaining ones are "put on the stack" and are not "played", so they make it through. I can understand hull breach though, it's a very solid card and always hits two artifacts. However, a single counter stops it, whereas shattering spree is effectively uncounterable. Hull breach's ability to hit enchantments makes it very attractive though.

dre4m

08-10-2006, 01:19 PM

Just to correct you, shattering spree doesn't get beaten by chalice at 1 either. The initial spell gets copied, but the remaining ones are "put on the stack" and are not "played", so they make it through. I can understand hull breach though, it's a very solid card and always hits two artifacts. However, a single counter stops it, whereas shattering spree is effectively uncounterable. Hull breach's ability to hit enchantments makes it very attractive though.

I beleive you mistyped "copied" instead of "countered," and I have no clue what you are talking about as far as Hull Breach. Hull Breach hits an artifact, an enchantment, or both, but can't hit two artifacts. Look here if you don't believe me. (http://magiccards.info/ps/en/111/)Spree is cool, but generally not as good as Naturalize because you want to kill enchantments, too, and chalice @2 is not going to be a threat to you outside of Naturalize itself and Magma Jet.

Zilla

08-10-2006, 05:26 PM

Have you testing Shattering Spree in the board against angel stompy at all?
Artifacts aren't why Angel Stompy beats you. They're the least of your problems. Silver Knight, all by himself, is enough to shut down the majority of this deck. In order for that to change, the nature of this deck would have to change fundamentally. You could theoretically run Cursed Scroll or splash white for StP or swap out a lot of the red creatures for pure green ones, but I tested most of these configurations and found them to weaken the deck against the field in general, without a severe improvement in the AS matchup.

SuckerPunch

08-10-2006, 05:50 PM

well, it might be because I run call of the herd instead of bts, (i don't want to buy a playset of bts and such inflated prices right now and call is actually better against thres), my main problem with angel stompy is the equipment and the parrallx wave.

my burn can still gang up to kill their exalted angles, and that's all that really matters. all my creatures are bigger than their first strikers so i don't care, till they start equipping them. so i think both shattering spree and null breech even more so would help a good bit.

Zilla

08-11-2006, 09:29 PM

my burn can still gang up to kill their exalted angles, and that's all that really matters.
That's not accurate. All that really matters is that a single Silver Knight shuts down every single threat in your deck with the exception of Iwamori and/or Call of the Herd. Certainly Wave and equipment are problems, but they're the tip of the proverbial iceberg. You can use sideboard slots for narrow cards like Spree and Mutation, but those are slots which you sorely need for other problem matchups like combo and control.

As an aside, it's arguable that Call is better than BTS against Thresh. I've tested both quite extensively against both UGw and UGr Thresh and I don't think either has a clear advantage over the other. While it's nice to be able to replay Call from the yard as a form of virtual card advantage, it is more highly succeptible to UGr's Bolts, and it can't chump a Mongoose and stick around like BTS can. Further, with most Thresh builds running a full 8 fetchlands, BTS' ability quite regularly helps you win damage races in a very tangible way.

Shugyosha

08-14-2006, 08:30 AM

I took Zilla Stompy to the German Legacy Nationals yesterday and went 4th of 137 with it.
During testing I had a bad matchup against Goblins despite the matchup should be good. Considering this and the bad burn Matchup I played the Stompy list with:

2 Iwamori and 2 Ravenoth Baloth (in the Iwamori/Slum slot)

Sideboard: (I had no access to Needles)
4 Pyrostatic Pillars
3 Naturalize
3 Pyroclasm
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Flashfires (white decks seem to be popular here)

1. Round: BW The Rack
Rack und Pikula isn't a problem for this deck. Enough removal, creatures he can't handle and BTS stops Shade dead in his tracks.
2-0
Overall: 1-1-0-0

2. Round: Rifter
I got a BTS online in turn 2 or 3 and things went down for him with alot of creatures involved. Second game rancored creatures and a pair of BTS along with his bad luck to find the answers decided the game.
2-0
Overall: 2-2-0-0

3. Round: BDW w/o Equipments but with Scepter (strange deck)
First game I took a mulligan to five, got nothing and lost with 2 lands and Jitte in play only. Second and third game the Pyroclasms helped alot to get rid of his not Pro-Red creatures so the stalemate lasted long enough to draw the big threats. Scepter with Helix was dangerous but handled by Naturalize and again multiple marvelous BTS.
2-1
Overall: 3-3-0-0

4. Round: 43 Land (also see the "Lands!" thread)
He started with Mana bound discard 6 land and then simply bashed me while tapping my lands with Ports. Second game was not that explosive but nothing the less similar and the BTS kept rotting in my hand with my tapped/wasted manabase.
0-2
Overall: 4-3-0-0

5. Round: Deadguy
He had not that opitmal draws, I owned him. Everything went by the book.
2-0
Overall: 5-4-0-0

6. Round: RW Vial Goblins
Bad hands and drawing no steam finished me. I had Trolls and Jittes but not enough mana to operate them properly and he denied me the Jitte counters by blocking with Mogg Fanatic and pinging it. The Mogg Fanatic and Goblin King are really large problems. Jitte alone can't win the game. Baloth helped in one game, though.
0-2
Overall: 6-4-0-0

7. Round: Bgu a bit of all
Half T2 deck based on Deadguy but with counters ?Tradewind Rider? It played green but no Survival. I somehow lost the first game. I had a jitte but equipped to BTs so I was in suicide mode which was enough for him to beat me. Second and thrid game were under my control... I was really happy to run 4 Jittes so I could counter his and play my own later.
2-1
Overall: 7-5-0-0

8. Round: RW Vial Goblins
God hands, god draw. Early Kird Ape with rancor and removal. Later on, Troll with jitte and pyroclasm backup. It went too well for me :-)
2-0
Overall: 8-6-0-0

T8 playoffs:

Quartefinals: 43 Land again...
This time I knew his deck and managed to stall him with BTS and after SB with Pyrostatic Pillars, too. I could have beat him to death but I played save as we had no time limit. The third game ended with only a few cards in the library.
2-1

Semifinals: Goblins again... (the deck I lost from above)
The same thing as above plus god draws on his side. He could have killed me much earlier with Goblin King which he could have tutored with alot og Goblin Matrons he plyed in both games.
0-2

Things I figured out: Despite 3 Pyroclams in the board the Goblin matchup is not good. It basically comes down to having a decent hand and a decent draw. As Goblins is a flexible deck it can exploit every error and every turn you don't improve your board position. He has alot of ways to deal with the Stompy threats:
Building up speed with Vial, Ringleader, Matron
Block/Sac Mogg or with Siege-Gang Commander to deny Jitte counters.
Tinkerer+Warchief against Jitte
A Goblin King letting Lackey/Piledrivers through is a constant threat so keeping burn and lands open is necessary sometimes which really stalls your game.
Amassed goblins with Pyromancer is his lategame plan which is really solid when you play no mass removal or don't see your boarded ones.

Maybe I have the wrong plan when playing against Goblins but I feel the matchup should be improved. Honestly I don't know how. Pyroclasm (in the SB) seem to help but its far away from being a bomb. I thought about Aether Flash but haven't tested it and it costs 2RR.

BTS is an absolute must. Together with 4 Pyrostatic Pillars I won far more Combo matchups (in other tourneys) than I ever expected. Although its far away from a walk in the park I have no fear facing combo. Considering that Iggy and Nausea are non-existant here.

I usually don't need the 4cc creatures to win. Slum if played can win the game in a stalled ground war but as 2-of you cannot count on him. So 3-4 or none is the right number I think. I still like Iwamori because of trample but I don't know if he is really needed. Maybe more removal or untouchable creatures instead the 4cc slots would be better.

I hope everything is written properly, I'm not a native speaker...

tsabo_tavoc

08-16-2006, 09:16 AM

Congratulations on your great performance!

I am shocked by your 0-4 lose to ZSY's most favorable Tier1 matchup. It is mainly due to bad luck, but the access of Engineered Explosives to that deck might make your matches tougher.

1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
3 Mogg Fanatic
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Pyromancer
1 Goblin King
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Swords to Plowshares

3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Pyromancer
1 Armageddon
1 Gaea's Blessing
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
2 Disenchant

4 Incinerators, 4 Pyrokinesis, 3 Stps are annoying, but you have your MVP-Trolls.
3 Fanatics can break down your Jitte plan, however, as Zilla pointed out, this matchup is not heavily dependent on the equipment.
Goblin King, SGC can be removed by burns or Jitte counters with full composure.
Goblin Pyromancer sucks esp when putting down through Vials, but you know to save your Lightning Bolts when it is tutored.

Engineered Explosives at 3 supported by 4 colors posits a great threat to the deck. I am curious about your impression of it and how many matches do you lose due to that.

Shugyosha

08-16-2006, 12:06 PM

Congratulations on your great performance!

I am shocked by your 0-4 lose to ZSY's most favorable Tier1 matchup. It is mainly due to bad luck, but the access of Engineered Explosives to that deck might make your matches tougher.

Thanks Tsabo,

actually I never saw Explosives on the board in the two games with SB. I don't think he boarded it as he fetched on mountains all the time. He boarded Pyrokinesis and Disenchant (I have seen them during play) so he was the one with more removal and more creatures. One might say this thins out the library too much speaking of Goblins and yes he played about 2-4 of the worst Ringleaders I saw going into nothing but land and spells. Still he spit out creatures like hell.

Losing four games to him in a row is definately bad luck but during testing I also often had problems with Goblins. And in the last tourney I lost to Goblins, too. My matches at MWS against Goblins are 50% at best. Don't get me wrong. I'm not complaining or saying that the Deck is bad. I love to play this deck but the Goblin matchup scares me...

Can anyone tell me how you would board against Goblins (in and out) using the SB you play with?

Goblin Pyromancer sucks esp when putting down through Vials, but you know to save your Lightning Bolts when it is tutored.

Pyromancer's +3/+0 ability is a "comes into play" ability, so removing him would only prevent the Goblins from dying at end of turn. Which makes the whole plan very resistant to spot removal.

SuckerPunch

08-17-2006, 11:55 AM

In your experience, do you think Zilla Stompy is still viable in this meta.

It beats goblins, but what deck doesn't nowadays. Angel Stompy seems to be falling out of flavor before it even took off in popularity, you can bring a lot sideboard hate against combo.

So do you think the deck is strong in a meta without angel stompy?

noobslayer

08-17-2006, 12:01 PM

If people wisen up, and realize how good the 3c Angel version is, Zilla Stompy will truly die.

dre4m

08-17-2006, 12:09 PM

If people wisen up, and realize how good the 3c Angel version is, Zilla Stompy will truly die.

Quoted for epic amounts of truthiness.

Well, I guess it acutally depends on the specific build of Three See Aye Ess, and whether they opted to get rid of some of the Pro: Red creatures, but it should still be the nightmare matchup for this deck and most of the metagame, especially since that guy on Star City dismissed AS as being terrible, and of course more people will read that than this thread.

Shugyosha

08-17-2006, 12:40 PM

So do you think the deck is strong in a meta without angel stompy?

Gencon and the German counterpart have shown how diverse the meta is and that alot of aggrodecks are around. I think this will stay true (at least for a while) as many people can't or won't play combo.

It has been said earlier in this thread that this deck is really strong against "random"-decks. Although talking about random decks is vague at best, I really beat alot of different decks with ZS. At the same time I saw some established decks losing to random decks quite often so I would call ZS a very strong and flexible build.

The absence of AS is definately a factor but the fantastic Deadguy/Sui/Black decks... matchup is also very important. Black seems to be popular here.
At the moment there are no AS here, only Boros deck wins and WW (without Angel) which are difficult sometimes but absolutely winnable matchups. Silver Knight is a problem but equipment (or counter-jitte) and Angel really ruins my day...

It also depends on the number of AS (and viable variants) we will see in the future. At the moment I see no signs of AS returning in masses, so I will keep playing ZS.

Another problem might be the return of Landstill. I haven't tested it that much but it seems not a good matchup.

dre4m

08-17-2006, 12:44 PM

Another problem might be the return of Landstill.

I'm tempted to put that in the "Great Source Quotes" thread.
Honestly, I wouldn't worry about it as long as there is a single Lackey on a table somewhere. I can't remember the last time I played this matchup, but I assume you could probably establish some kind of clock, probably with a Troll Ascetic holding something with charge counters all over it.

Shugyosha

08-17-2006, 01:00 PM

I can't remember the last time I played this matchup, but I assume you could probably establish some kind of clock, probably with a Troll Ascetic holding something with charge counters all over it.

You know the last time this was my plan. But it ended up in a Troll which was a 1/1 without abilities and my forced Jitte rested in the grave...

Besides, LS won the German Champs against the Goblins (I mentioned above) in the finals but I know its not representative... its crazy...

NANTUKO_SHADY

08-17-2006, 01:18 PM

Noobslayer can give credit as to how good this deck is.... laughs.. Noobslayer, please inform everyone as to your deep passion for this deck?

raudo

08-17-2006, 01:52 PM

Hi all!

Just wondering if anyone has tried blue as a third color like we veterans did in the past. (Sorry if there is a topic for that deck somewhere :rolleyes: )

So 3cc Serendib Efreet to replace BSS
And here comes the gamebreaker:
4cc 2xBinding Grasp

Not to mention Impulse, Arcane Denial(or other 1U counterspell daze, memory lapse, mana leak)

noobslayer

08-17-2006, 01:53 PM

I was bored last weekend. I cut the fat guys (ie 4cc), and splashed black for maindeck Bob's and stuffed in some Grim Lavamancers. Needlesss to say, I went 4-1, only losing to Burn, AND beating white weenie with an obscene number of pro: red dudes.

Sentiments, Call of the Herd is retardedly good.

Don't play Zilla Stompy, play 3c aggro.

And the dude on SCG is obviosly a fool if he dismisses AS as a deck to contend with. I personally do not enjoy sitting across from Phil and his monstrosity.

dre4m

08-17-2006, 02:19 PM

I think I'm going to stop playing Angel Stompy because I always think people are talking about me when they are actually referring to Stolze. That aside. AS is still good, and splashing black for Bob is debatable, but would be well-discussed in another thread with a clear decklist. Zilla Stompy is good, and, in true 20/20 hindsight, I wish I would have played it at Gencon due to its ability to ruthlessly punish random decks.

Zilla

08-17-2006, 07:30 PM

Don't play Zilla Stompy, play 3c aggro.
This deck utterly decimates 3c aggro. It's also better against Thresh and Goblins. That's the entire reason for the slightly higher mana curve and fatter beats; 2 of the most popular decks in the format have very real trouble answering them. The same goes for a ton of randomness (3c aggro included). Furthermore, Zilla Stompy's manabase is much much more stable against Goblins, as well as anything else packing Wasteland.

Kenderleech

08-17-2006, 07:35 PM

Actually, you might want to go with zilla stompy over 3ca... find my report and see why. If you have ANy questions about rgw aggro, IM me.

Thanks. The former patron saint, and current martyr of three deuce.

tsabo_tavoc

08-18-2006, 09:04 AM

Landstill is really a somewhat unfavorable matchup. I hope there can be some discussions on the boarding of Winter Orb for Landstill and Rifters(A Rifter told me he can win a plethora of games under Orb), Flashfires that simply wins Rifters, or Pyroblast for both Solidarity and Landstill(I am not sure if the card can vastly improve this matchup).

dre4m

08-18-2006, 09:25 AM

(A Rifter told me he can win a plethora of games under Orb),

Then his opponents were playing Orb at all the wrong times. You need plenty of mana to get going with Rifter, and unless you play the Orb when they have all their mana untapped or something similarly stupid, you will take quite a few time walks with it. As a sideboard card for control that hinders you the least and control the most, Orb is probably the MVP for the price.

Zilla

08-18-2006, 08:54 PM

Then his opponents were playing Orb at all the wrong times. You need plenty of mana to get going with Rifter, and unless you play the Orb when they have all their mana untapped or something similarly stupid, you will take quite a few time walks with it. As a sideboard card for control that hinders you the least and control the most, Orb is probably the MVP for the price.
Truth. The best time to play an Orb is typically around turn 4 or 5, after they've tapped out to recur a dragon or cast a Wrath. By this time you should have 4 or 5 mana available to you, which you use to cast an orb and a threat (preferably something difficult to kill like Troll), and then use the 3-4 turns you've bought yourself to ride that threat to victory. It's been quite effective for me in testing.

SuckerPunch

09-21-2006, 10:31 PM

Technically, Thres has no problem answering Iwamori. They do run 4 Swords you know.

This deck has posted good results in top 8s even after being dismissed as unviable due to combo.

It's a strong deck.

But at the same time, I can't help but wonder if perhaps a faster build utilizing more burn, fireblasts, more low cc cards (skyshrould elite) and the bloodthirst 2cc 3/3 trampler etc akin to the original deck might be better against combo.

edgewalker

09-23-2006, 12:13 PM

I've been running a list that looks a little like this for the past few months.

Beaters
4 Kird Ape
4 Scab-Klan Mauler
4 Jungle Lion
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Burning-Tree Shaman/ Some other beater.

Pump
4 Rancor
2 Umezawa's Jitte/Fireblast

Reach
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Magma Jet

Land
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
3 Mountain
3 Forest

It's essentially the list I used to run back when I actually used to play, except I play better cards over fanatic, jackal pup, and cursed scroll. Although scroll was very good and I might even suggest still playing it. I've found through playing mainly on the interweb and with my friends that this list is very strong. It has a good thresh and goblins match, haven't tested solidrarity much, but I assume it's bad.

In case anyone was wondering, my friends play thresh, goblins, ravanger, and Homebrew. We're not the best players, but we have anough good decks to test alot of match-ups.

Shugyosha

09-23-2006, 12:32 PM

But at the same time, I can't help but wonder if perhaps a faster build utilizing more burn, fireblasts, more low cc cards (skyshrould elite) and the bloodthirst 2cc 3/3 trampler etc akin to the original deck might be better against combo.

I currently running the list with 2 Iwamori and 2 Silhana Ledgewalker in the "4 Iwamori slot". The -2x 4cc +2x 2cc proved to be real good for the curve and the Ledgewalker won me alot of games with Jitte or Rancor as my other creatures kept the ground busy or closed.

Being untargetable is the best ability a creature can have in this deck. Adding a decent evasion ability is just nuts with Jitte and Rancor.

He's also another first turn drop with ESG if you have nothing else reliable that can stop a Lackey.

erdjinn

10-05-2006, 08:26 AM

I currently running the list with 2 Iwamori and 2 Silhana Ledgewalker in the "4 Iwamori slot". The -2x 4cc +2x 2cc proved to be real good for the curve and the Ledgewalker won me alot of games with Jitte or Rancor as my other creatures kept the ground busy or closed.

Being untargetable is the best ability a creature can have in this deck. Adding a decent evasion ability is just nuts with Jitte and Rancor.

He's also another first turn drop with ESG if you have nothing else reliable that can stop a Lackey.

I agree that Silhana Ledgewalker can be a good choice. It can carry and charge a Jitte to destroy those ... Silver Knights. It's incredible how Silver Knight wrecks this deck.

I am also wondering if the 2 Naturalize are worth a MD slot. I really hate loosing game 1 to Mongoose + Worship. OK, I still loose to Mongoose + Worship + FoW but this is less likely to happen because they need FoWs to slow me down.

Shugyosha

10-05-2006, 11:20 AM

I am also wondering if the 2 Naturalize are worth a MD slot. I really hate loosing game 1 to Mongoose + Worship. OK, I still loose to Mongoose + Worship + FoW but this is less likely to happen because they need FoWs to slow me down.

With all that acceleration you better play Krosan Grip so counters are not a problem when destroying Needle on Troll or Worship or anything else.

The inclusion of MD disenchant effects is a meta call. You shouldn't weaken the deck by adding them MD in the most cases I think. Its true that there are alot of situations when I wished I have them but there are more situation when they are not necessary, dead or just a bad draw compared to other things.

erdjinn

10-06-2006, 11:05 AM

What do you run in your side?

grins3kat3r

10-06-2006, 03:14 PM

why dont you use cursed scroll in zilla stompy?? it can kill a mother of rune and a silver knight?? what do you think about the pyrite spellbomb?? you can sac it for dealing 2 damage to a silver knight or drawing a card?
why dont you play mana acceleration like chrome mox or mox diamond??

Shugyosha

10-06-2006, 04:20 PM

What do you run in your side?

At the moment

4 Pyrostatic Pillars
3 Naturalize (these will most likely become 3 Krosan Grip)
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyroclasm
2 Flashfires

Clasm is to smash Goblins because this deck sadly doesn't crush Goblins always and I face 1+ Goblin decks on tourneys.

Flashfires becasue of Rifter and also AS/BDW but this is the changing slot, depending on the meta and Needle availability.

I also ran Choke some time ago and it was really nice but too narrow.

erdjinn

10-09-2006, 07:55 AM

I currently run:
-3 Pyroclasms -1 Naturalize -2 Flashfires
+2 Engineered Explosives +2 Rack and Ruin +2 Anarchy

E. Explosives against goblins and white weenie (Silver Knight + Priest or Mother + Isamaru + S. Lions), R&R for artifact heavy decks like Faerie Stompy.

I decided for R&R over other artifact hate because it cannot be misdirected, but I think I'll cut them for Krosan Grip.

Thanks.

Shugyosha

10-09-2006, 10:55 AM

Explosives is a nice SB card, indeed. I think I will test them in the Clasm slot.

Needles are definately needed in the side. I sided them in nearly every game in a tourney yesterday (I borrowed two which replaced the Flashfires).

erdjinn

10-09-2006, 11:59 AM

Explosives is a nice SB card, indeed. I think I will test them in the Clasm slot.

I tried the Explosives to face Chalice of the Void and then I found out that I could side them in against different decks. I choose the number of the counters so even when I damage myself (sometimes it happens) I still get an advantage. Unfortunately I don't have acces to a third color but I still like the Explosives.

Needles are definately needed in the side. I sided them in nearly every game in a tourney yesterday (I borrowed two which replaced the Flashfires).
I agree. I'll go with 2 Needles and cut 2 Anarchy/Flashfires.

Kronicler

10-10-2006, 10:00 PM

Hey, I didn't read through most of the thread, but I was just wondering if you tested against fairie stompy at all? Just wondering.

Kronicler

tsabo_tavoc

10-11-2006, 04:19 AM

Krosan Grip is a decent supplement to the Sideboard that can totally replace Naturalize.
Engineered Explosives is too narrow-- I don't think it fits the Goblin matchup. Moreover, it is plainly narrower than Chalice of the Void, which hits Iggy, High Tide, maybe Elves, White weenie, some control matchups.
Landstill is popular in German area, as indicated by T8s on Morphling.de, while your current board seems not well prepared for it.

My current board:
3 Pillar
3 Chalice
2 Tormod
2 Winter Orb
2 Needle
2 Krosan Grip (I run 1 maindeck Viridian Zealot(Naturalize may be better) to beat Worship)
1 Gaea's Blessing

erdjinn

10-11-2006, 11:23 AM

Hey, I didn't read through most of the thread, but I was just wondering if you tested against fairie stompy at all? Just wondering.

Kronicler

Yes, I did test against it and the result is almost even. Flying, equipment and pro-red hurt. On the other hand Rancor, BTS and Troll hurt them too.

Krosan Grip is a decent supplement to the Sideboard that can totally replace Naturalize.
Engineered Explosives is too narrow-- I don't think it fits the Goblin matchup. Moreover, it is plainly narrower than Chalice of the Void, which hits Iggy, High Tide, maybe Elves, White weenie, some control matchups.
Landstill is popular in German area, as indicated by T8s on Morphling.de, while your current board seems not well prepared for it.

My current board:
3 Pillar
3 Chalice
2 Tormod
2 Winter Orb
2 Needle
2 Krosan Grip (I run 1 maindeck Viridian Zealot(Naturalize may be better) to beat Worship)
1 Gaea's Blessing

What to put in a sideboard is always very debatable point so the following are only suggestions.

I agree Chalice is a great card against combo. But I haven't tested it because we have too many 1cc cards that will be hurt. I currently run 16 1cc spells (4 Elves + 4 Bolts + 4 Rancor + 4 Kird Ape). OK, I'll board some out but I will draw many dead cards and slow my deck.
Does the Chalice slow your opponent more than you? What's your experience about it?

I admit I have never played against Landstill. Winter Orb is always a good card against control in general so it may worth the 2 slots in your meta.
It seems there are far more Threshold decks here in Italy, so I think I need 3 Crypts.

I have tested the Explosives and I found them useful in many matchups. Just try to count how many 0, 1 or 2cc cost permanents there are around.
Against W-Weenies the Explosives really shine. With 4 mana I get rid of Knights, Priests and Jitte. Or maybe with 3 I can destroy mother, Lions/Isamaru and Hawks.

tsabo_tavoc

10-12-2006, 12:14 AM

1. Chalice simply wrecks combos.
2. 2 cost Chalice=3 cost Explosivs, 4 cost Chalice=4 cost Explosives.
3. I admit I have no experiences on Chalice yet. Explosives is way better than Chalice which might be unsuable against white weenie. The question is does Explosives vastly improve the matchup? If not, Explosives doesnnot worth the spot, save it for other bad matchups.

erdjinn

10-12-2006, 07:56 AM

I am not saying that chalice is not a great card against combo. But I think it is not playable in this deck. We have too many 1cc cost spells and no counterspells to protect the chalice for long. Anyway it may be worth a try. I hope you'll let us know your testing results.
I tested Explosives against Faerie Stompy and White Weenies and I think these matchups are much better.

al the great

11-22-2006, 06:40 PM

I just got totally jacked last night by Thresh w/mages and STP.

Any tips?

raudo

11-23-2006, 06:06 AM

al the great

11-23-2006, 06:23 AM

erdjinn

11-24-2006, 02:59 AM

I've tested a lot this build against GWU ***** and I have to say that ***** is better. Wihtout sideboarding ***** went to win crushing 15-5. Your chances are to get Troll Ascetic to hit the table through counters and equip him with Jitte. Only thing thresh needs to counter are Ascetics and Jitte (Jitte can be disenchanted too) and other creatures are just stopped. Even if you look better then you often just draw lands when your opponent searches through his library for quality cards.

My tip is try to play a bit slower your key spells in the beginning and leave one mana open for daze for your critcal spells (Ascetic, Jitte) if you don't have ESG.

UGW threshold usually does not have disenchant effects pre-board, and neither does Zilla stompy. The problem is that usually UGW has Worship and when Worship hits it's gg. Since they do have a nice % of getting Worship in play with a few lifes left you can't test this match only pre-board. (Well, you can't test any match only pre-board.)
If they don't have Worship they probably have maindeck Needles that hurt your best weapons (Troll and Jitte).
I half agree with your tip. Save your ESG for Daze, but don't wait a turn to have a mana open. Just pretend to have an ESG in hand.
Other than Worship the real pain with UGW thresh is StP. Just try to avoid the 2x1 deal when playing Rancor, because Rancor is a must counter for them.
Meddling Mage is not that bad, because:
1) you can shoot him in response when the ability goes on the stack (before they name a card)
2) if they hit threshold it's the only "good" target for your burn so it makes almost useless cards in your hand worth something. Well, your opponent is a good target, too, so burn is never completely useless.
3) play Krosan Grip over Naturalize in your board
4) play Engineered Explosives over Anarchy in your board. Anarchy in theory removes Worship, :cool: but in practice it only gets BEBed. :cry: EE for 1 hit Mongooses and Needles (and your elves), for 2 they hit Bears, Mages (and your Jitte but you probably don't have one in play). Many people won't agree with this but until they test this I don't care.
5) play 2 Iwamori and 2 Phantom Centaur. Iwamori is overall best but against thresh playing only 1 at a time is a big drawback. In addition the Centaur always trades with at least 2 of their creatures while you'll be probably be trading 1 Iwamori with 1 Mongoose/Bear.

I wonder why Zilla said he did well against Thresh.

Zilla is probably a better player than us. :smile:
Or maybe his opponents are much worse than yours. :wink: