[Deck] RW Rifter (White-Based Control)

[Zilla]

(Courtesy of Mr. Nightmare/Anwar):

WR Lightning Rift, aka Rifter, has roots tied deep in Onslaught Block. It was constructed in those days to combat the Aggro decks in the format, and was looked into as a deck that smashed the face of Vial Goblins when it was suggested by Fakespam in CanGD1. The first build (Fakespam’s) revolved around finding and playing Humility, and using cycling cards and Lightning Rift to clear the board and shock your opponent to death. The deck had answers to a variety of situations using Burning Wish, and took home the prize in CanGD1. This is the build from that contest:

LIST

The list had several problems. First and foremost, it loses miserably to all shapes and sizes of combo. With the rise of Solidarity, Rifter fell out of favor, as it was basically an empty chair when paired with the deck.

At the same time, Jack Elgin (TheInfamousBearAssassin) was developing Mono-White Control, aka Rabid Wombat:

Land:
19x Snow-Covered Plains
4x Secluded Steppe

Creatures:
4x Eternal Dragon

Spells:
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Abeyance
4x Renewed Faith
4x Decree of Justice
3x Wing Shards
3x Wrath of god
3x Humility
3x Gilded Light
3x Akroma's Vengeance
2x Rune of Protection: Red

Sideboard:
3x Phyrexian Furnace
3x Disenchant
3x Aura of Silence
3x Orim's Chant
3x Genju of the Fields

This deck’s strengths lie in the same places as Rifter, as well as having one of the most stable manabases in the format. Rather than focusing on Enlightened Tutor to find its answers, Wombat concentrated on a slew of cycling cards and cantrips, as well as adding Rune of Protection: Red to the main in order to help the Goblin and Burn matchups. To help shore the combo matchup, it included maindeck Abeyances, as well as a board almost solely focused on beating combo. On the other hand, the deck has an innate ability to bore its pilot to death, and draws as many games as Dragon, but not on purpose.

The key to making RW Rifter a competitive and powerful deck was combining the two decks. It used the cantrips and cycling advantages of Wombat, and the added speed and removal of Rifter. The new deck is regarded as the only truly viable control deck in the format, having surpassed Landstill in almost every way. It has made top 8 at all three of the most recent Legacy high profile events (GP:Philadelphia – 3rd; GP:Lille – 7th; SCG DfD – 3rd) and has solidified itself as a Deck To Beat.

WR Lightning Rift
7th Place (GP: Lille)

4 Secluded Steppe
4 Forgotten Cave
9 Plains
7 Mountain
2 Plateau

3 Eternal Dragon

3 Lightning Rift
3 Humility
2 Rune of Protection: Red

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Renewed Faith
3 Slice and Dice
3 Decree of Justice
3 Pyroclasm
2 Disenchant
2 Abeyance
2 Akroma's Vengeance

Sideboard:
3 Rule of Law
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pulse of the Fields
2 Disenchant
2 Abeyance
2 Boil
1 Pyroclasm
1 Pyroblast

While Rifter and Wombat may seem like very similar choices there are a few important differences. The ability to end the game in a timely fashion is one of the strengths of Rifter. Lightning Rift gives the deck the ability to end the game in a few turns. Wombat has a major issue with going to time. Rifter also has a none creature-based win condition (Lightning Rift) and that helps in control matchups were creature removal does not actually stop Rifter from winning.

Rifter does have one major drawback and that is its manabase can be disrupted. While the deck is highly resistant to Wasteland given that it plays 16 or so basic lands it can be affected by Rishadan Port especially by cutting off one of the 2 colors that might be needed at any given time. It is also more suspectible to land destruction strategies employed mainly by decks like Deadguy Ale.

Link to TMD Discussion (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27118.0)

[Ghetto_Santa]

How well does this Against Combo? FlameVault. Savager Game?

[Sad Alien]

The primer on the TMD thread mentions the suspicious absence of a green splash.

I spent an hour and a half trying to mix up a decent manabase for this mysterious green splash.

My tear ducts are raw and crusty.

Life of the Loam ain't worth it.

[dontbiteitholmes]

You didn't talk about the Burning Wish option. Can we start a discussion on the Pros and Cons of Burning Wish and what a wishboard should look like.
I'm glad to see this is finally a DTB, I was actually planning on playing this at D4D but decided on Enchatress since I only had 1 Humility but I had 4 Moats.

[AnwarA101]

You didn't talk about the Burning Wish option. Can we start a discussion on the Pros and Cons of Burning Wish and what a wishboard should look like.
I'm glad to see this is finally a DTB, I was actually planning on playing this at D4D but decided on Enchatress since I only had 1 Humility but I had 4 Moats.

Burning Wish was not discussed in large part because the decks that have done well at recent tournaments did not run Burning Wish. Burning Wish is an interesting choice and does have some pros and cons. The main advantage would be that it would give you some flexibility in the main deck since you always had the option to use Burning Wish to find other answers that have to be included in the main deck currently. If one were to run Burning Wish it seems that narrow spells like Disenchant and Pyroclasm would not be needed since one could just run some equivalent wish target.

The main problem ofcourse would be that Burning Wish does limit your sideboarding options. The space available for cards like Rule of Law, Pyroblast, and other such anti-combo cards would be difficult to fit in with a wish sideboard. Without such cards the combo matchup is virtually impossible to win. This is the main drawback of the deck and the sideboard should help such matchups and not hurt it.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Burning Wish was not discussed in large part because the decks that have done well at recent tournaments did not run Burning Wish. Burning Wish is an interesting choice and does have some pros and cons. The main advantage would be that it would give you some flexibility in the main deck since you always had the option to use Burning Wish to find other answers that have to be included in the main deck currently. If one were to run Burning Wish it seems that narrow spells like Disenchant and Pyroclasm would not be needed since one could just run some equivalent wish target.

The main problem ofcourse would be that Burning Wish does limit your sideboarding options. The space available for cards like Rule of Law, Pyroblast, and other such anti-combo cards would be difficult to fit in with a wish sideboard. Without such cards the combo matchup is virtually impossible to win. This is the main drawback of the deck and the sideboard should help such matchups and not hurt it.
If it strengthens non-combo matchups it may be safe to run. As has been said before there is 1 great combo deck and 1 decent combo deck and the rest suck balls. If you play in a non-combo meta do you thing Burning Wish is a good choice?

[AnwarA101]

If it strengthens non-combo matchups it may be safe to run. As has been said before there is 1 great combo deck and 1 decent combo deck and the rest suck balls. If you play in a non-combo meta do you thing Burning Wish is a good choice?

I've never played the deck with Burning Wish. The obvious sideboard cards are Wrath of God and Pyroclasm. Perhaps even Boiling Seas versus blue-based control. What else would be good? You could cut Disenchant from the main as well as the Pyroclasms.

As a side note, there should probably be 4 Eternal Dragons in a build of Rifter. The card cycles for lands and serves as another win condition. I believe the version at GP Lille was running 4.

[Revert_To_Saved]

As a side note, there should probably be 4 Eternal Dragons in a build of Rifter. The card cycles for lands and serves as another win condition. I believe the version at GP Lille was running 4.

Lille didn't, but Philly and the Duel for Duals lists both did.

The thing about Burning Wish is that most of the time it's just so godawful slow. With the lack of good bomby type cards to sideboard, I don't see much reason to run it over, say, maindeck Pyroclasms.

[Tao]

I've never played the deck with Burning Wish. The obvious sideboard cards are Wrath of God and Pyroclasm. Perhaps even Boiling Seas versus blue-based control. What else would be good?

Decree of Justice would be good.

[Vardaman]

Shattering Spree, another Slice and Dice if needed...

[dontbiteitholmes]

I could literally think of 50 cards that would be good to Wish for at one time or another. I'm not saying it's the right choice all the time, or that it's the direction this deck should go in, but it's certainly got potential and I have already seen people running Wishes in online play and found it to be stronger at times then if their Wishes had been say a Disenchant or a Pyroclasm.
[Edit] Oh BTW what does this deck do when it starts getting more popular and people start running Anarchy in their sideboards again?

[Citrus-God]

I for one vote that Burning Wish should be in the deck. If can give us cute answers like Boiling Seas, Meltdown, Terashi's Grasp, more random crap, and lot's of weird stuff, and oh, Ruination. I mean if they counter your answer, you still have like 36 other answers in your deck.

[Lukas Preuss]

[Edit] Oh BTW what does this deck do when it starts getting more popular and people start running Anarchy in their sideboards again?

Why exactly would people run Anarchy against this deck? The list in the opening post has 5 white permanents (3 Humility, 2 RoP: Red), not counting the Eternal Dragons. Anarchy wouldn't be the right choice to disrupt this deck... Maybe something like Flashfires, Winter Orb or Armageddon would be better, since the deck needs quite some mana to run smoothly, but there's always Sacred Grounds as an answer (at least to Flashfires and Armageddon).

[dontbiteitholmes]

Why exactly would people run Anarchy against this deck? The list in the opening post has 5 white permanents (3 Humility, 2 RoP: Red), not counting the Eternal Dragons. Anarchy wouldn't be the right choice to disrupt this deck... Maybe something like Flashfires, Winter Orb or Armageddon would be better, since the deck needs quite some mana to run smoothly, but there's always Sacred Grounds as an answer (at least to Flashfires and Armageddon).
Yeah you're right, I guess as an Enchantress player I just live in fear of Anarchy. By the time they could drop Anarchy and swing for the win you should already have stabalized.

[Gabbatron]

Hello, this is my very first post on the source. If this deck would use Burning wish, is´t it possible to have Anarchy in its sideboard against other decks using more white permanents? When playing against something like angel stompy a well timed anarchy should be helpfull, right? And if you allready had something like Humility in play, you could instead wish for pyroclasm or another board sweeper. This might however be a very small point since not many decks include lots of white permanents right now...

[Finn]

umm... Humility flat-out owns so many decks. Goblins, for one, need to be rid of it in the worst way. Any of the mono-red Goblin decks will have to pack Anarchy for the occasion. They *have to* or simply fold in the mtachup.

[syssc9]

Will somone please post one of the tourney winning decklists that include Burning Wish? Or a link to it and its sideboard? Thank you... I would like to see lots more discussion of this deck and based on the posts above, the Wish option looks like a good place to start.

[Slay]

The tourney winning decklists did not include Burning Wish. Wish is something that has not proven itself yet.
-Slay

[FakeSpam]

As great of an idea as burning wish was in theory, in practice it was less than stellar. I originally threw burning wish in because there just weren't enough slot for cards that did something.

[syssc9]

@Slay
Oh my, thanks for straightening me out. I thought I had read above that 2 of the winning lists ran 4 Burning Wish. The post by Revert to Saved says 4 Eternal Dragon, not 4 Wish. Guess I can chalk that up to Wish-full thinking (groan…).

[syssc9]

Sorry if this qualifies as a double Post. Mods, please feel free to concatenate.

I am still waiting and hoping to see lots more discussion here. For what it's worth, I threw together the following deck and took it to my local shop last night. It went undefeated in 8 games. This was not a tourney, they were all casual games, however the casual nature of the evening meant the play included all kinds of opposition, including a smattering of T1 stuff, and two 5-person group games. I gave the deck to another player for one of the group games and he won handily. He was not familiar with archetype, nor had he seen me play the deck previously. He looked through it before the game and I gave him a quick run down. He won without much difficulty. It took a while, but he was never in any serious trouble.

LAND:
4 Plateau
4 Forgotten Cave
4 Secluded Steppe
7 Plains
5 Mountain

CREATURES:
4 Eternal Dragon

SPELLS:
4 Burning Wish
4 Lightning Rift
4 Humility (Lots of critters in my meta)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Slice and Dice
3 Decree of Justice
2 Disenchant
4 Abeyance
4 Renewed Faith

SIDEBOARD:
1 Pyroclasm
1 Wrath of God
1 Akroma's Vengeance
1 Ruination
1 Decree of Justice
1 Slice and Dice
1 Shaterstorm
1 Tempest of Light
3 Rule of law
4 Red Elemental Blast

The Burning Wish and wishboard were useful, but did not live up to the "Bomb Rack" I had supposed in my head. As much as I hate to admit it, this pretty much confirms the comments made above. But everything worked, even against multiple opponents, something that traditional blue permissions decks often have trouble with.

[Bryant Cook]

1 Tempest of Light

Gotta love 'em instants huh? I know theres a sorcery one from champions thats arcane you may want to use that.

[syssc9]

@ wastedlife
Yeah, I was in a big hurry. I have since fixed that mistake with Cleansing Meditation from Torment. I still haven't broken down and rebuilt sans Burning Wish. I even did some testing on Sunday agains gobos: I piloted the Goblin deck, and handed this one to my wife. She beat me 2 out of 3 with no more knowledge of how the deck works than a 2-3 min walkthrough. And I'm a fare Goblin player! Very impressive.

[Aggro_zombies]

i like this deck a lot but i have a few questions about sideboarding to deal with control...here's my meta:

2 High Tide
1 Red/Blue Control
1 Two-land Belcher
5 Goblins
1 Mono-Black Control
1 Landstill
2 Lightning Rift
1 White/Black Control
1 Blue/White/Red Control
1 Elves
1 White Stax
2 White Weenie

and here's my deck:
2 plateau (i'd run more but there's lots of wastelands and ports in this meta)
9 plains
7 mountain
4 secluded steppe
4 forgotten cave

4 eternal dragon

3 lightning rift
2 pyroclasm
3 slice and dice
4 swords to plowshares
2 disenchant
2 rune of protection: red
3 abeyance
3 renewed faith
3 humility
3 decree of justice
2 akroma's vengeance

SB:
3 rule of law
2 pyroclasm
2 disenchant
3 gilded light
1 abeyance
4 ???

...and it's the "???" i'm stuck on. i don't think there's enough blue to warrant a lot of blue hate but i want some general anti-control cards since this deck has a harder time against non-aggro decks. suggestions?

[Lego]

Gotta love 'em instants huh?

I love Burning Wish. What else can make you say, "Damn, if only this was a Sorcery."

[URABAHN]

SB:
3 rule of law
2 pyroclasm
2 disenchant
3 gilded light
1 abeyance
4 ???

...and it's the "???" i'm stuck on. i don't think there's enough blue to warrant a lot of blue hate but i want some general anti-control cards since this deck has a harder time against non-aggro decks. suggestions?

I like the 2x Boil I see in the successful builds, it's terrible against Gro, but I think it's pretty damn good against Solidarity. As for your other 2 slots, maybe Sacred Ground? Anyone running Flashfires or Stench of Evil?

How is Pyroclasm working for you in the main deck? I'm finding it's not very good against Gro and Zoo because of the 3 and 4 toughness creatures. Maybe Wrath or Starstorm would be better.

[Aggro_zombies]

I like the 2x Boil I see in the successful builds, it's terrible against Gro, but I think it's pretty damn good against Solidarity. As for your other 2 slots, maybe Sacred Ground? Anyone running Flashfires or Stench of Evil?

How is Pyroclasm working for you in the main deck? I'm finding it's not very good against Gro and Zoo because of the 3 and 4 toughness creatures. Maybe Wrath or Starstorm would be better.

there's no gro in my meta - no one around here seems to know it exists. as for zoo, it's okay but not that impressive. i run it because it shines against goblins and ww, which make up the bulk of the aggro decks. if there were more gro and zoo i might opt for flamebreak or maybe starstorm, but i'd have to test them. as for the open two slots, sacred ground sounds good. this deck doesn't seem to like having its lands destroyed...actually, no deck does, but this one especially doesn't.

thanks!

EDIT: after further consideration (but not much testing, i'm afraid), i'm thinking i want to go with 3 sacred ground in the sb instead of 2, since i want to maximize my chances of drawing it early against the relevant matchups without clogging the maindeck with them. with that out of the way, i have one open sideboard slot. if i go for chants i might drop the extra abeyance from the sb and run two chants...

just out of curiosity, has anyone tested trinisphere in this deck? it won't really hurt you since you would prefer to cycle your cards anyway and most of the permanents you play cost more than three mana (with the exception of rift which costs two, so it's close enough). the only real disadvantage would be that it hoses stp but i usually drop a few of them from the maindeck anyway when sideboarding against control. the advantages to trinisphere are:
1) it hoses most combo (with the exception of flamevault and probably a few others i'm not thinking of)
2) it hoses free counters
3) it forces decks like gro and control to make a higher mana investment for their cards which slows them down
4) it draws hate spells like vindicate and disenchant away from cards you want to keep on the board like rift and humility
of course, i'm just saying all of this in a very theoretical way, since i haven't tested it. still, i think it may be worth trying...

[spiritmage788]

I would definitely recommend 2 Sacred Ground. Maybe 2 Orim's Chant as another anti-control card.

[dad]

Please forgive my ignorance, but isn't Fluctuator used or is it banned? When the first Rift decks came out around PT Houston, the pros didn't really have the time to evolve the deck for the then extended format. One suggested deck for that era (courtesy of Ben B.)

Theoretical Astral Rift Deck, Extended
4 Astral Slide
4 Lighting Rift
4 Fluctuator
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Slice and Dice
1 Avalanche Riders
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Ghitu Slinger
1 Monk Idealist
1 Teroh's Faithful
1 Pardic Arsonist
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Radiant's Judgment
1 "Rune of Protection: Red
1 "Rune of Protection: Green
1 Rune of Protection: Black
4 Mountain
4 Plains
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Blasted Landscape
4 Drifting Meadow
4 Forgotten Cave
4 Secluded Steppe
4 Smoldering Crater

Sideboard:
1 Clear
1 Radiant's Judgment
1 Akroma's Vengeance
1 Orim's Thunder
1 Light of Day
1 Ancient Hydra
1 Defender en-Vec
1 Honorable Scout
1 Monk Realist
1 Keldon Vandals
1 Rune of Protection: Red
1 Auramancer
1 Teroh's Faithful
1 "Flametongue Kavu
1 Exalted Angel

Certainly, the above deck is rough by current standards, but the idea holds, as their are 25 cycling cards and significant versatility. My issue though is Fluctuator, would someone please tell me why it doesn't see play. (Note, if it is banned and I missed that I will put myself in a self imposed 6 month exile).

[URABAHN]

Can that Fluctuator decklist really be called Rifter? The only control element I see off-hand would be Astral Slide. There's no Vengeance, no STP, no Wrath, no Humility. This Fluctuator deck seems so very interesting, but I think it does itself a disservice by playing the CIP creatures, possibly even moreso by playing Rift.

If you didn't have to pay 1 mana for Rift, this deck would be unbelievably fast. But you're hamstrung because you have to pay to deal 2 damage. That means the earliest you could start Shocking your opponent would be turn 3.

Turn 1, Land
Turn 2, Land, Fluctuator
Turn 3, Land, Rift, Cycle for zero & pay for Rift
Turn 4, Land, Cycle 4 cards for zero & pay for Rift 4x
Turn 5, Land, Cycle 5 cards for zero & pay for Rift 5x

So, in a perfect world for the Fluctuator deck, you could kill them on turn 5. That's if you drop 5 Land in a row (Lands 2-5 have to come into play untapped).

If you want to make use of your CIP guys, the earliest you could start wreaking havoc (if you can even call it that) would be as early as Turn 5.

Turn 1, Land
Turn 2, Land, Fluctuator
Turn 3, Land, Rift, Cycle a card for zero & pay for Rift
Turn 4, Land, Avalanche Rider, blow up target land
Turn 5, Land, Astral Slide, Slide out Rider, Cycle 5 cards for zero & pay for Rift 5x, blow up target land
Turn 5.5, Slide out Rider during opponent's main phase, blow up target land at EoT
Turn 6, Land, Cycle ad nausem & kill your opponent

Wouldn't a better use for Fluctuator be to cycle creatures to fill up the 'yard, play Songs of the Damned and Drain your opponent dead?

[Aggro_zombies]

Wouldn't a better use for Fluctuator be to cycle creatures to fill up the 'yard, play Songs of the Damned and Drain your opponent dead?
i think there is actually a deck like this that uses the 2-mana cyclers from the urzas and onslaught blocks. the problem is that it's vastly inferior to most of the other combo decks out there right now and is sensitive to all kinds of hate - artifact hate for fluctuator, graveyard hate for the kill. hell, even megrim would be game over for this deck...it's just too slow and if you run out of cyclers part way through (say, you hit a pocket of lands or cards that don't cycle), you have to wait until you get cyclers again, and so on...so it kills much more slowly than other combo decks like flamevault, solidarity, or salvagers game...although i do agree that fluctuator could help rifter to a certain extent, there's just no place in the deck for it.

[Vardaman]

Turn 1, Land
Turn 2, Land, Fluctuator
Turn 3, Land, Rift, Cycle a card for zero & pay for Rift
Turn 4, Land, Avalanche Rider, blow up target land
Turn 5, Land, Astral Slide, Slide out Rider, Cycle 5 cards for zero & pay for Rift 5x, blow up target land
Turn 5.5, Slide out Rider during opponent's main phase, blow up target land at EoT
Turn 6, Land, Cycle ad nausem & kill your opponent

Wouldn't a better use for Fluctuator be to cycle creatures to fill up the 'yard, play Songs of the Damned and Drain your opponent dead?


You'd have to pay the Echo on Avalanche Rider on turn 5 too.

I don't see what fluctuator really does to make the deck better than standard builds of Rifter.

[SillyMetalGAT]

Fluctuator sucks in this deck. The point of the deck isn't to "combo" like Fluctuator was made for. The combo deck that uses fluctuator on the other hand is pretty cool. The only problem is all the cycle lands come into play tapped :(

[Aggro_zombies]

I remember reading in the mtgsalvation Rifter thread that one guy was splashing green for Life from the Loam in his Rifter deck (and of course, access to extra cycle lands). Has anyone else tried this? If so, how does it work? I can see it being a fairly powerful engine, but is it necessarily worth it?

[FakeSpam]

Please forgive my ignorance, but isn't Fluctuator used or is it banned? When the first Rift decks came out around PT Houston, the pros didn't really have the time to evolve the deck for the then extended format. One suggested deck for that era (courtesy of Ben B.)

---Decklist Cut, scroll up lazy ass---

Certainly, the above deck is rough by current standards, but the idea holds, as their are 25 cycling cards and significant versatility. My issue though is Fluctuator, would someone please tell me why it doesn't see play. (Note, if it is banned and I missed that I will put myself in a self imposed 6 month exile).

Fluctuator was present in early builds. However, it doesn't cycle. It also doesn't really do anything to help the deck. As stated above, this deck is control... not combo. Having the ability to cycle your whole deck in one turn really isn't that important. That, and most of the cyclers require colored mana, making fluctuator a little more un-good.

The point I actually want to make nobody above me touched on. Creatures have no place in this deck. The deck is humility with 56 other cards. Humility is that powerful and stupid-broken-good. Adding astral slide and creatures will only make the deck suck.

[Aggro_zombies]

The point I actually want to make nobody above me touched on. Creatures have no place in this deck. The deck is humility with 56 other cards. Humility is that powerful and stupid-broken-good. Adding astral slide and creatures will only make the deck suck.
Agreed...not to mention, adding creatures and Slide makes this a Slide deck and not really a Rift deck. ;)

I've played around with the Life from the Loam a little bit and it seems okay but not stupidly good. In the right situations you can really destroy people by recurring your cycle lands every turn, or even multiple times a turn if you've got the mana, but I've found more often than not that I would rather be doing other things with my mana that recurring LftL. Usually I wait until I have control of the board in the mid- to late-game to start using the LftL engine, which I then direct towards milking as much damage out of my Rifts as possible. In the early game LftL is a dead card because it doesn't really give you control of the board and has the potential to mill away stuff you want to throw down, like Rifts and Humility. Additionally, throwing in the lands to make this work screws with the mana base and makes it more vulnerable to Wasteland and Friends, since you're running more nonbasics.

On the flip side, if you have a Rift down, it does let you use cycling lands to activate Rift with impunity against opposing creatures without having to worry about not having the gas to kill your opponent afterwards. It also really frustrates counterspell-wielding opponents since they can't really stop it...counter it once and it will be back, just like Ahnold. Not that it's much of a help...

[URABAHN]

The Rifter decks from Lille and Duel for Duals seemed geared to destroying Goblins, playing cards like Pyroclasm and RoP: Red. The problem with Pyroclasm is it doesn’t stop Pro Red guys and guys with 3+ toughness. Starstorm was recommended to me because you can dial it up, play it as an instant, or Cycle it. With Humility in play, Starstorm for one is just as good as Pyroclasm. I felt that RoP: Red was too narrow and Akroma’s Vengeance was too slow. Wrath of God seemed like a good fit for an efficient way to sweep the board.

The deck I played in Syracuse is a work in progress. I need to be more familiar with the deck, make fewer mistakes, and play with better cards. 3 of my 7 Rounds went to time. Because of this, I think you have to leave no less than 2 Lightning Rift in your deck post board. When Gro shuts down your Dragon and Decree of Justice with Pithing Needle, you’ve got to deal damage somehow while you’re looking for Disenchant. In the maindeck, I want to see if Spark Spray is better than Renewed Faith. Spark Spray cycles for one less, pings Lackey, Dark Confidant, Mother of Runes, and is usually better than StP with Humility in play. I rarely hardcast Renewed Faith and when I do, I wonder if Spark Spray wouldn’t have killed off something that put me in a situation where I had to gain 6 life. My sideboard vs. Gro was weak. I don’t think Pyroblast and Boil are great choices against Gro. Pyroblast doesn’t stop Naturalize targeting Humility and Boil doesn’t seem worth it when they’ve a couple Mongoose and/or Werebear in play. I think Blood Moon, Wing Shards, and Price of Progress are my best choices.

[Danger]

What are people's experiences playing this deck vs. WW or Angel Stompy? I played against it a short time ago and struggled to destroy the Pro:Red men. I went to time in the match, but it was much more difficult than I would have imagined. The opponent did have main deck removal for enchanments which couldn't help me one bit. It strikes me that with this deck we seem to be relying on red damage in a format where red damage isn't that good. If they can keep Humility off the table we seem to be in rough shape. Have others shared this experience? Should we up the count of humilties? And even Lightning Rifts in order to race Angel Stompy?

These are my observations from limited experience with the deck.

[Eldariel]

And even Lightning Rifts in order to race Angel Stompy?

You don't want to go there. When you try to race aggro, no matter how good your clock is for control, you are going to lose. No matter how good Rift is, their clock is faster. If you truly want to improve that match-up, play some Wraths main. They can't remove Wrath the way the can remove Humility. They just hope for Parallax Wave, but you're playing Disenchants too. Anyhow, yes, Angel Stompy is much more difficult than Goblins, and possibly more difficult than Thres as they have many creatures that are completely and utterly beyond over half of your removal, they pack a good number of threats, Parallax Waves (it makes your Vengeances look REALLY stupid) and the ability to rapidly empower any of their creatures, as well as to get by humilities (equipment). They also tend to SB Armageddons, so the MU is harder in almost every way than either Thres-variant (except they can't counter your Humility...but they can Disenchant it).

[WildCard]

I like the deck. I have been playing it non-stop for testing purposes. The deck is not as good as people say it is. I've lost to WU chant. It kicked my ass. Scepter + Chant FTW. Nothing I can do to stop that. Disenchants were countered. I did manage to Abeyance and Boil at least eon game though. This deck VS discard: discard wins. Discard ruins this deck. Why was this a "Deck to Beat" again? Because so far I have only seen this deck perform sub-par with other decks. I haven't faced LD yet but I assume it dies to that also. 1.5 is usally a creature controled format. Every deck I have played VS the deck strategy does not work. If fluxuator was in the deck then i could have easily cycle and rifted for the win. The deck is just annoying to me. The list should be looked at. LATERS.

[Lukas Preuss]

I like the deck. I have been playing it non-stop for testing purposes. The deck is not as good as people say it is. I've lost to WU chant. It kicked my ass. Scepter + Chant FTW. Nothing I can do to stop that. Disenchants were countered. I did manage to Abeyance and Boil at least eon game though. This deck VS discard: discard wins. Discard ruins this deck. Why was this a "Deck to Beat" again? Because so far I have only seen this deck perform sub-par with other decks. I haven't faced LD yet but I assume it dies to that also. 1.5 is usally a creature controled format. Every deck I have played VS the deck strategy does not work. If fluxuator was in the deck then i could have easily cycle and rifted for the win. The deck is just annoying to me. The list should be looked at. LATERS.

This deck is a DTB, because decks like Scepter Chant or Pox are not played by many people at good tournaments. Because these decks suck. Of course, you could be unlucky and face one of them during your first round, but after that, you're pretty safe.

[-BK-]

In my opinion this is simply a deck to beat because:
1. It kills goblins.
2. It's played by many people because of 1.
3. It did top 8 at many big tournaments.

[Aggro_zombies]

In my opinion this is simply a deck to beat because:
1. It kills goblins.
2. It's played by many people because of 1.
3. It did top 8 at many big tournaments.
QFT. As much as there are some bad matchups for this deck (anything combo comes to mind), it has some killer ones (Goblins / Gro, etc.). The deck's weaknesses can be made up for, for the most part.

As for losing to WW with Geddons, I have quite a lot of that in my meta. Geddon can be dealt with by Sacred Ground out of the SB. Even though they have removal for it, they only have a limited amount of enchantment removal, and that means that they have to budget it carefully - you will have multiple "bad" enchantments for them, and they will have to prioritize what to remove. If pro-red guys are getting you down, you can try Wrath of God main, which is a fairly un-sexy solution, but I suppose if it works, it works.

[URABAHN]

What are people's experiences playing this deck vs. WW or Angel Stompy? I played against it a short time ago and struggled to destroy the Pro:Red men. I went to time in the match, but it was much more difficult than I would have imagined. The opponent did have main deck removal for enchanments which couldn't help me one bit. It strikes me that with this deck we seem to be relying on red damage in a format where red damage isn't that good. If they can keep Humility off the table we seem to be in rough shape. Have others shared this experience? Should we up the count of humilties? And even Lightning Rifts in order to race Angel Stompy?

These are my observations from limited experience with the deck.

Humility and Swords to Plowshares seems good against White Men, so does Wrath of God. Post SB, you'd better hold back on lands because you're going to get hit with at least a turn 3 Armadgeddon. If there are no beaters on the board, 'geddon isn't that scary. If you're staring down a bunch of Pro Red guys, Cycle away your Slice and Dices and Starstorms until you get to a Humility or a Wrath. Abeyance was terrible in this matchup, so I sided out a couple in favor of a couple more Disenchants to break their toys.

[Bryant Cook]

Humility and Swords to Plowshares seems good against White Men,

Well arn't you the racist. Anywho at kadilak's dual land draft of the 4 of them 3 of them were in the winner's bracket 80% of the tournament. Every round there was one next to me. Does that say something? The deck is fairly consistant but could use a faster win condition, they all went to time in the round a few times.

[URABAHN]

I think the problem with going to time can be partially solved by playing the deck lots. I plan on putting Rifter in bed between the missus and I just so I can get s'more quality time with the deck. I went to time against Affinity, Ninja Deck Wins, and Gro in the Quarterfinals vs. Overlord95. Lightning Rift seems fast enough to me, a single Rift will kill your opponent after about 10 cycling cards, 2 Rifts will kill your opponent in 5 cycling cards. You could go with the creature route, maybe Pristine Angel?

[AnwarA101]

I think the problem with going to time can be partially solved by playing the deck lots. I plan on putting Rifter in bed between the missus and I just so I can get s'more quality time with the deck. I went to time against Affinity, Ninja Deck Wins, and Gro in the Quarterfinals vs. Overlord95. Lightning Rift seems fast enough to me, a single Rift will kill your opponent after about 10 cycling cards, 2 Rifts will kill your opponent in 5 cycling cards. You could go with the creature route, maybe Pristine Angel?

If you are trying to increase the speed of the kill I would add another Lightning Rift (if you are playing 3) or another DoJ (again if you are playing 3) before adding a creature like Pristine Angel which would clog up your hand in the early game. Between Lightning Rift, DoJ, and Eternal Dragon you should be able to win in time in most matchups. This deck will always be pretty slow, but given that its much faster than Wombat and perhaps even Landstill is one of the main reasons its the premier control deck in this format. You could even try Enlightened Tutor to find Lightning Rift, but I find the card disadvantage to be prohibitive.

[Aggro_zombies]

You could go with the creature route, maybe Pristine Angel?
3 Humility.

The thing is, this deck is like "Humility with some cycling cards." Humility is insane against so many decks, it's not even funny, but it is notoriously un-friendly with a "creature beats ftw" strategy. Besides, you're already packing 4 Eternal Dragon, so if you want beats, hold back on the Humility and play that. If you want to speed the deck up, add another Rift.

[Bane of the Living]

I've been playing the deck with 2 Maindecked Disenchants. In some occassions I've disenchanted my Humility and swung for 5-10 with Dragons for a quicker win. I know it's not 100% safe but sometimes in the late late game Humilty isn't even needed anymore. Esp after a cycled Slice n Dice and some removal in hand.

I also like to pack 4 Exalted's in the Sideboard to bring in anywhere I dont want Humility.

[URABAHN]

This deck will always be pretty slow, but given that its much faster than Wombat and perhaps even Landstill is one of the main reasons its the premier control deck in this format. You could even try Enlightened Tutor to find Lightning Rift, but I find the card disadvantage to be prohibitive.

If someone told me right before GP: Philly that Lightning Rift would become a staple of what will become the premier control deck of this format because it's faster than Eternal Dragon, DoJ, or Mishra's Factory, I'd shit on their coat out of total disbelief.


Humility is insane against so many decks, it's not even funny, but it is notoriously un-friendly with a "creature beats ftw" strategy.

Making a 1/1 Dragon for 5WW and making 1/1 Angel Tokens is truly a terrible way to win. Lightning Rift is so much better, though I'd don't think I'd ever go to 4. Like I said, I think the deck is fast enough, but I need to make quicker decisions.

[Lord Dralnu]

Making a 1/1 Dragon for 5WW and making 1/1 Angel Tokens is truly a terrible way to win. Lightning Rift is so much better, though I'd don't think I'd ever go to 4. Like I said, I think the deck is fast enough, but I need to make quicker decisions.
Have you even played this deck before? Why would anyone make angel tokens with a humility on the board? Did you not notice the whole cycling thing with soldiers which happen to already be 1/1s so they are unaffected by humility.
I have been playing against rifter and haven't found it too slow. I play Zilla Stompy and have actually been winning regularly. I absolutely hate playing against rifter so I pack 3 tranquil domain SB. I usually side in 3 domains and 2 anarchys to stop humility rift and rune of protection. Have you guys had trouble with dealing with an early troll ascetic with regen mana. I have single handedly won several games by ranoring him and beating through all opposition. If they dropped a humility I would domain it, if they dropped pyroclasm I would regen etc. I'm just curious about the ways to deal with my little troll friend.

[AnwarA101]

Have you even played this deck before? Why would anyone make angel tokens with a humility on the board? Did you not notice the whole cycling thing with soldiers which happen to already be 1/1s so they are unaffected by humility.
I have been playing against rifter and haven't found it too slow. I play Zilla Stompy and have actually been winning regularly. I absolutely hate playing against rifter so I pack 3 tranquil domain SB. I usually side in 3 domains and 2 anarchys to stop humility rift and rune of protection. Have you guys had trouble with dealing with an early troll ascetic with regen mana. I have single handedly won several games by ranoring him and beating through all opposition. If they dropped a humility I would domain it, if they dropped pyroclasm I would regen etc. I'm just curious about the ways to deal with my little troll friend.

The best way to deal with Troll have to be Humility and Wrath of God. I really think this deck needs Wrath of God and I think Urabahn ran it this past Saturday.

[URABAHN]

Have you even played this deck before? Why would anyone make angel tokens with a humility on the board? Did you not notice the whole cycling thing with soldiers which happen to already be 1/1s so they are unaffected by humility.

No, I have never, ever, ever, ever played this deck before. Just ask Kadishack, Mad Zur, AnwarA101, SpatulaoftheAges, IBA, Deep6er, Ewokslayer, Krieger, FakeSpam, Garv, T is for Tool, CavernNinja, Obfuscate Freely, Calosso, and Overlord95.

Cycling DoJ can make Soldier tokens?! I had no idea, but then again, I've never played Rifter.

Having never played Rifter, I can say with utmost certainty that you might want to play DoJ for Angels with Humility in play if you're desperate for a blocker. You can do the same with Eternal Dragon! When Humility is in play, DoJ for Angels and 1/1 Eternal Dragons are terrible ways to win. That point, which I made earlier, coincides with your painfully obvious comment.


I have been playing against rifter and haven't found it too slow. I play Zilla Stompy and have actually been winning regularly. I absolutely hate playing against rifter so I pack 3 tranquil domain SB. I usually side in 3 domains and 2 anarchys to stop humility rift and rune of protection. Have you guys had trouble with dealing with an early troll ascetic with regen mana. I have single handedly won several games by ranoring him and beating through all opposition. If they dropped a humility I would domain it, if they dropped pyroclasm I would regen etc. I'm just curious about the ways to deal with my little troll friend.

If you're so afraid of Rifter, why would you play an early Troll? Unless you play it with 2 mana to spare, you've got to wonder if they're going to play Pyroclasm. If you wait until you've 2 mana to spare, then you've given the Rifter player all the time in the world to find Wrath of God or Humility. With Humility in play, Rifter only needs a 1 mana removal spell to whack your troll. In reponse to your Tranquil Domain, Swords to Plowshares seems good, so does Rift on the stack targeting your Troll.

[Lord Dralnu]

When Humility is in play, DoJ for Angels and 1/1 Eternal Dragons are terrible ways to win. That point, which I made earlier, coincides with your painfully obvious comment.

My bad, I guess i just misunderstood you I didn't mean to sound smug I was just confused as to what you were talking about.

You guys have played alot, do you know what kind of match-up rifter has against Zilla Stompy? I've been testing (probably not against good players) and have had decent success against rifter dropping an y early threat really. Iwamori is tough to remove other than with STP without humility in play, BTS pings you for cycling etc. I know rifter was designed to stomp aggro, but is it totally unfoavorable to the zilla player? I'm just curious because I can only afford to build one of the decks, and want to know if zilla can handle this (as a top deck) while still handling gobbos etc.
Thanks in advance.
-LD

[URABAHN]

With no way to get rid of Humility in game one, I think Rifter is heavily favored. Post-board, Rifter has to play Wrath and Starstorm and rely on those more than Humility to wipe out your guys or guy with Rancor. In addition to Starstorm and Wrath, Rifter ought to play with Wing Shards (maindeck or post-board) to deal with your big threats. If you side out Lightning Bolt like Zilla recommends, you lose a bit of punch, but you can kill Humility.

[MattH]

Having never played Rifter, I can say with utmost certainty that you might want to play DoJ for Angels with Humility in play if you're desperate for a blocker.
But why wouldn't you cycle instead? You get more blockers, at instant speed, and it draws a card. Or are you assuming they Needled DoJ?

[URABAHN]

But why wouldn't you cycle instead? You get more blockers, at instant speed, and it draws a card. Or are you assuming they Needled DoJ?

Yup, Needle on DoJ, no Disenchants, and you need a blocker would be why.

[Bane of the Living]

You could always play maindeck Naturalize in Zilla Stompy. I dont know why everyone feels the need to play the deck card for card with zillas. He does have a different meta. If you think you'll see rifter often enough play with Naturalize. It shoots down Humility ftw.

[MattH]

Yup, Needle on DoJ, no Disenchants, and you need a blocker would be why.
I could also see Plague-naming-Soldier as a reason to do this.

[Lego]

From all the talk I'm hearing, it seems like people are saying the best way to deal with any tough situation is Humility. If that's the case, why are people only running 3? I can see them being dead in some matchups, and dead in multiples, but especially post-board, wouldn't you want to have the 4th to make sure you can get it on time and that it can weather the hate?

[Aggro_zombies]

From all the talk I'm hearing, it seems like people are saying the best way to deal with any tough situation is Humility. If that's the case, why are people only running 3? I can see them being dead in some matchups, and dead in multiples, but especially post-board, wouldn't you want to have the 4th to make sure you can get it on time and that it can weather the hate?
I've found that three is generally good enough since, if you don't get it in your opening hand or draw it in the first few turns, you're almost guaranteed to cycle into it in the course of the game. I think more than three would clutter the deck...but I've only tested with three so I can't say for certain. Still, I don't feel you need to go up on the number you run.

[URABAHN]

From all the talk I'm hearing, it seems like people are saying the best way to deal with any tough situation is Humility. If that's the case, why are people only running 3? I can see them being dead in some matchups, and dead in multiples, but especially post-board, wouldn't you want to have the 4th to make sure you can get it on time and that it can weather the hate?

4 ain't bad, but 3 mean it's less likely to sit in your hand turn 1 while you try to play 4 lands (two white) over 4 turns. Also because Rifter has lots of cycling cards, it's likely you'll draw into Humility which is better than sitting in your hand turn 1.

[Anusien]

I think you're right about needing 4 if you're going to run it at all. Game One you can rely on drawing into it, but game 2-3 people are going to bring in the hate for it, so you need it early and often. I would board the 4th against aggro decks.

I used a similar logic for Solitary Confinement in Slide.

[SillyMetalGAT]

Humility is very good, but I wouldn't play 3 just because of combo. This decks matchup against Combo sucks, so it can't afford to play extra aggro hate.

[VodenStopher]

Is gilded light good against combo? Or are they going to be holding the force of will to get their combo through? Because i see rule of law getting bounced and life gain not enough to get around losing.

[SillyMetalGAT]

The best thing you can really do if you have big problems against Solidarity... and I mean like your seeing it every week..... go with the 8 REB plan, some Chants and 2 more Abeyance, then hold out for the best. If you can stop the combo, you seal the game as it takes them TURNS AND TURNS to recover, and if they used Meditate its GG n00b. It just sucks dedicating 12 cards of your Sideboard to Combo, but you have SUCH a good game against aggro that its usually OK.

[Aggro_zombies]

Is gilded light good against combo? Or are they going to be holding the force of will to get their combo through? Because i see rule of law getting bounced and life gain not enough to get around losing.
I play three Gilded Light in my sideboard and I'm generally happy with it. There are a few targeted effects that just wreck you - just about any combo (of course), Haunting Echoes, etc. They might be holding that extra Force, sure, but with that logic, why play any spells at all since they might counter them? Sometimes, you just play it and hope for the best...

[URABAHN]

One of the guys I playtest with ran Chalice vs. combo in his Wombat board at GP: Philly or Duel for Duals--he tells me it's pretty damn good. I'd replace the Pyroblasts with Chalice because not every combo deck runs Blue cards. Iggy Pop runs a few, but I think Chalice would be better. Salvager variants don't run Blue at all.

[My Name Is Scott]

I play three Gilded Light in my sideboard and I'm generally happy with it. There are a few targeted effects that just wreck you - just about any combo (of course), Haunting Echoes, etc. They might be holding that extra Force, sure, but with that logic, why play any spells at all since they might counter them? Sometimes, you just play it and hope for the best...
Gilded light is definately very good against combo. It's abeyance 4-X. You always want to draw them against combo, and it's a solid card against burn. I haven't tested it in the mirror, but it seems like it would really help lots with all the cycling and rift action going on.

[Lego]

If you're really having problems with Combo, try Evil Wombat. It's Wombat splash black, if you don't know. It can pack Duress and Persecute in the board, and it has as fast a clock as Rifter, if not much faster. Against combo you can bring in Flesh Reaver, and hit them with Duress, Persecute, a Flesh Reaver clock, maybe Haunting Echoes, and still keep Abeyance in hand. I know Roop has had some success with it.

[Anusien]

Not only is that savagely OT, but I don't know if it's germane.

By the same logic, you can pull all the creature removal and turn into BDW with stuff like Glowrider, True Believer and a full set of Abeyance/Gilded Light. It's a question of which sideboarding plan is best for Rifter.

[AnwarA101]

Not only is that savagely OT, but I don't know if it's germane.

By the same logic, you can pull all the creature removal and turn into BDW with stuff like Glowrider, True Believer and a full set of Abeyance/Gilded Light. It's a question of which sideboarding plan is best for Rifter.

Its important to realize that this deck will never be great against combo decks and to not commit too much of your sideboard to the detriment of your other matchups. Committing as many sideboard slots to combo without damaging far more likely matchups is very important. Improving your chances against decks like Gro, Angel Stompy, and Deadguy Ale should be a bigger priority than something like Solidarity. You should definitely sideboard against combo but you should also be aware of the choice you are making when you choose a deck like Rifter.

[Lego]

Not only is that savagely OT, but I don't know if it's germane.

By the same logic, you can pull all the creature removal and turn into BDW with stuff like Glowrider, True Believer and a full set of Abeyance/Gilded Light. It's a question of which sideboarding plan is best for Rifter.

It's no more OT than discussing 3C Angel Stompy's merits against combo in the Mono-White Stompy thread, which has happened recently. The simple fact is that people asked what to do to fight combo, and one of those options is to splash black instead of red. I think the core of Rifter is Humility + cycling cards, and you can get that with a black splash just as easily as a red one, without hurting your clock or your control elements.

[Shriekmaw]

My observations from Kaddy's Dual Land Draft about R/W Rifter is that the deck is fairly good against most aggro decks in the format, better than mono-white wombat in my opinion. I would like to point out the toughest aggro matchup for the deck is affinity (go ahead and laugh).

I did have the pleasure of watching Trevor play my affinity deck and almost top 8 if it wasn't for mono-white angel stompy in the last round. The reason I would state that affinity could be tough, is just because how fast it can explode out of the gates and humility doesn't hurt affinity with its modular creatures as it would hurt other creature decks in the format.

Having cranial plating and berserk in the deck lets the deck just win out of nowhere which is very unexpected if players haven't seen the deck played a heck of a lot. I"m a big fan of affinity, not because its the best deck, because maybe the most powerful underrated deck in the format.

I'm glad I've converted another player in playing affinity from time to time in syracuse. That makes two of us now. Peace

[frogboy]

Back on topic, people.

[parallax]

What is Rifter's plan against creature decks that can remove Humility? It seems like this deck leans heavily on that card.

Chalice of the Void is great against combo. You can wait for them to bounce it, and Abeyance in response. Then, play it next turn.

[URABAHN]

What is Rifter's plan against creature decks that can remove Humility? It seems like this deck leans heavily on that card.

Chalice of the Void is great against combo. You can wait for them to bounce it, and Abeyance in response. Then, play it next turn.

Alex, I'll take Rifter Removal for $500

The Answer:
Wing Shards, Wrath of God, Slice and Dice, Starstorm, Akroma's Vengeance, Lightning Rift, Swords to Plowshares, Eternal Dragon, Decree of Justice

*URABAHN buzzes in*
What is...Rifter's plan against creature decks that can remove Humility?!

[parallax]

The Answer:
Wing Shards, Wrath of God, Slice and Dice, Starstorm, Akroma's Vengeance, Lightning Rift, Swords to Plowshares, Eternal Dragon, Decree of Justice
Of those, only Slice and Dice, Akroma's Vengeance, Lightning Rift, Swords to Plowshares, Eternal Dragon, and Decree of Justice appear in the decklist at the beginning of this thread. Of these, only Swords can take out a creature with toughness of three or more for less than six mana.
So let me rephrase: Other than Humility, what is Rifter's plan against creature decks that are not Goblins?

[Watcher487]

Of those, only Slice and Dice, Akroma's Vengeance, Lightning Rift, Swords to Plowshares, Eternal Dragon, and Decree of Justice appear in the decklist at the beginning of this thread. Of these, only Swords can take out a creature with toughness of three or more for less than six mana.
So let me rephrase: Other than Humility, what is Rifter's plan against creature decks that are not Goblins?
Actually, the better question that really needs to be asked is what decks right now in the format maindecks non-creature enchantment hate?

Now post-boards I do have understand the question. But there is no deck that can kill before turn 6 in this format consistantly maindecks anti-Humility cards.

[URABAHN]

Of those, only Slice and Dice, Akroma's Vengeance, Lightning Rift, Swords to Plowshares, Eternal Dragon, and Decree of Justice appear in the decklist at the beginning of this thread. Of these, only Swords can take out a creature with toughness of three or more for less than six mana.
So let me rephrase: Other than Humility, what is Rifter's plan against creature decks that are not Goblins?

I really don't understand what you're trying to get at. Wrath of God and Wing Shards also cost less than 6 mana and work just as well against creatures. If they blow up your Humility, beating face with Angels, Dragons, or Soldiers seems like a good way to win. The decklist you see on page 1 seems geared to beating Goblins with choices like Pyroclasm and RoP: Red in the maindeck. Rifter now needs answers to Zoo decks, Angel Stompy, and other beatdown decks like Affinity. That means forget about Vengeance, Pyroclasm, and RoP: Red. Play Wrath, Starstorm, and/or Wing Shards.

[Ewokslayer]

If big creature aggro decks are prevalent in your metagame, drop Pryoclasm and replace it with good cards like Wrath of God and Starstorm.

This isn't exactly rocket science. Both red and white have numerous ways to kill creatures, just find the ones that work best in your metagame.

[parallax]

Seal of Cleansing / Disenchant in Angel Stompy, for example.
Also, Daze, Force and Counterspell in Threshold.
Also, any Rock-type deck.

Also, even without maindeck Enchantment removal, sometimes you just won't draw Humility.

Is the infinite 6-mana Wrath plan viable, or do you rely on the format being dominated by two-toughness creatures? Or is there some other strategy I'm missing? I understand you can beat Goblins, and Threshold has a low enough threat count that you can out-Wrath them, but it seems that decks like Angel Stompy or the Rock might give you problems. They can put enough pressure on you by turn six to force the Wrath, then either play the one-guy + equipment plan or use recursion to overwhelm you. Is there a strategy against these types of decks or are they just accepted as bad match-ups?

[URABAHN]

Seal of Cleansing / Disenchant in Angel Stompy, for example.
Also, Daze, Force and Counterspell in Threshold.
Also, any Rock-type deck.

Also, even without maindeck Enchantment removal, sometimes you just won't draw Humility.

Is the infinite 6-mana Wrath plan viable, or do you rely on the format being dominated by two-toughness creatures? Or is there some other strategy I'm missing? I understand you can beat Goblins, and Threshold has a low enough threat count that you can out-Wrath them, but it seems that decks like Angel Stompy or the Rock might give you problems. They can put enough pressure on you by turn six to force the Wrath, then either play the one-guy + equipment plan or use recursion to overwhelm you. Is there a strategy against these types of decks or are they just accepted as bad match-ups?

Parallax, what is your obsession with 6 mana Wrath effects and 2-toughness creatures? I think Ewok and Watcher have given you plenty reasons how Rifter beats not Goblins. Watcher is right that most aggro decks don't maindeck Enchantment removal, Ewok is right that you should tailor your deck to suit your metagame. If you run into Goblins left and right, run a list like the one from Lille. If you run into Zoo and Angel Stompy and whatever else, try out good ol' fashioned 2WW - Wrath of God or Starstorm.

As for not drawing Humility, I'm sure someone here can tell you the statistics of drawing 1 or more of the 3 or 4 Humility in your deck even before you start Cycling through your deck drawing cards or finding Plains. I can't think of a single time in playtesting or otherwise that I never drew Humility. Even still, Humility is not what this deck is all about. Rifter players don't rely solely on Humility, just as MBC (or Train Wreck) doesn't rely solely on Mutilate. Both decks rely on having multiple ways to eliminate creatures. Rifter will try to force aggro to overextended their threats until Lightning Rift or Soldiers wins the game.

Against decks with Recursive creatures (RGSA, the Rock) Decree, Lightning Rift, and Swords to Plowshares are your best bets. Genesis can only return 1 creature to your hand, Recurring Nightmare requires you to sac a creature to bring one back. Because it's still only 1 creature a turn, Rifter can outrace recursive strategies.

Angel Stompy, Goblins, and Gro lay threats on the board, fill their hand, and find more threats or ways to protect them (Gro). Holding back threats can save you a couple turns and allows Rifter the time to find new answers. The key here for Rifter is to use cheap removal spells like StP, Lightning Rift, and Wing Shards. Humility and Wrath don't have to be played ASAP, like turn 4. Rifter can always respond to Disenchant targeting Humility by Cycling Slice and Dice or playing Starstorm.

Super aggressive decks like Affinity and Zoo play larger threats and won't always hold back. Decks like these don't maindeck Enchantment removal because it's not a card that does damage. Here, Humility and Wrath are key and you probably will want to play them ASAP, like turn 4.

In all these cases, Rifter keeps threats out of play with plenty of cheap creature removal costing 4 mana or less.

[parallax]

I'm sorry. I've been testing RGSA against the list at the beginning of the thread, which does not run Wrath or Wing Shards. Without those, I've found that Rifter has a very poor match-up against Survival. If the majority of Rifter decks are running Wrath or Wing Shards, then all my testing is flawed. So my question is: does the average Rifter list run those cards, and if so, could someone post an updated list for me to test against? On the contrary, if the list in the first post is the most common list, does it just lose to those types of decks, or am I misplaying horribly?

[Lego]

Angel Stompy and the Rock are by no means bad matchups for Rifter, they're simply not the best matchups. Even a deck like Angel Stompy that maindecks enchantment removal and sideboards even more still remains slightly over 50/50 for Rifter (better pre-board, even post-board). The deck is tough becuase it plays some pro-red beaters, it doesn't need to overcommit because of its equipment, it plays maindeck enchantment removal, and it is desceptively fast (plus Geddon out of the board doesn't hurt.) But that still doesn't mean it is a bad matchup for you, and if you're seeing decks like this in your meta, you just have to take that into account when deciding what removal spells to play.

I'd say Rifter is a tough deck to come up with an "Optimal List" for, both main and side. This is because in some areas you're going to want to pack a lot of anti-goblins stuff like Pyroclasm and Rune, but in other places you're going to want the Wrath and the Starstorm. It really depends on what you expect.

[Phantom]

I was looking for a list to run decks though for testing, but there doesn't seem to be definitive one listed here. I know that this is considered a deck that changes with your meta (which deck doesn't?) but will testing my decks against the build on page one be effective?

[Obfuscate Freely]

You should probably tailor your test list to be as good as is reasonable against whatever deck your testing against it. For example, if you pull the deck out one night and get the feeling that Wrath of God and Starstorm would be better in a certain matchup than Pyroclasm and ROP: Red, go ahead and make the swaps. Allowing your gauntlet decks this sort of flexibility helps ensure that you won't be underprepared against a real opponent, even if he or she has made some slightly unorthodox card choices.

[tivadar]

Angel Stompy and the Rock are by no means bad matchups for Rifter, they're simply not the best matchups. Even a deck like Angel Stompy that maindecks enchantment removal and sideboards even more still remains slightly over 50/50 for Rifter (better pre-board, even post-board). The deck is tough becuase it plays some pro-red beaters, it doesn't need to overcommit because of its equipment, it plays maindeck enchantment removal, and it is desceptively fast (plus Geddon out of the board doesn't hurt.) But that still doesn't mean it is a bad matchup for you, and if you're seeing decks like this in your meta, you just have to take that into account when deciding what removal spells to play.

I run angel stompy splashed blue. My experience with rifter is that I beat it. While i've only been paired with it 3 or so times in tournaments locally, I haven't lost any of those matchups. Granted it's the same guy every time, but he has a good list and plays it well. Even he'll probably admit that this is a bad matchup for him. How did you get the over 50/50? My gut is that mono-white would be even better in this matchup as it would have more pro-red, and be a bit quicker out of the gate (I don't even pack any enchantment removal maindeck).

[frogboy]

Rifter is ahead in game one; it's mass and spot removal make it really hard for Angel Stompy to win, even through Parallax Wave. However, in games two and three, Angel Stompy can board in Armageddon and destroy Rifter. Sacred Ground isn't even a particuarly good defense, because AS is also bringing in Disenchants.

[URABAHN]

Rifter is ahead in game one; it's mass and spot removal make it really hard for Angel Stompy to win, even through Parallax Wave. However, in games two and three, Angel Stompy can board in Armageddon and destroy Rifter. Sacred Ground isn't even a particuarly good defense, because AS is also bringing in Disenchants.

'Geddon is only dangerous when they've a threat on the table, that means it won't be the first thing to come out of their hand. Because of that, Geddon is probably better mid to late game if Rifter has been playing lands with reckless abandon.

[Lego]

I've found Rifter-Angel Stompy to be slightly in Rifter's favor mostly because of Game 1, but that said, thinking back to my matches I've won a lot of them without any trouble, I've just never really kept a record of match wins. After board you're bringing in at least 2 Disenchant and 4 Geddon, which swings the matchup quite heavily in your favor, and depending on your sideboard strategy you might also be bringing in some number of Tempest of Light. I've ridden an Isamaru to victory against Rifter after a Geddon, so I guess I'll retract my previous statement. I'm honestly not sure who's up in the match, it's clear that Rifter is up pre-board and Angel Stompy is up post, but I'm not sure either is overwhelming enough for me to decide on a clear winner without more testing.

That said, if anyone does want to test the matchup, I'd be more than happy to.

EDIT: I've never played versus a Rifter deck packing Wrath, and I imagine that'd be worse for Angel Stompy.

[tivadar]

That's true, WOG could hurt a bit. Also, perhaps the blue splash is helping. Meddling mage naming rift/humility combined with mom can really hurt this deck I think, and looking back, I almost always had one out. That combined with either bleb or force probably makes the match even better.

Anyways, I'd imagine rifter with 3-4 WOG would do significantly better. 1-2 just doesn't seem like enough to do the job. Of course, that's just improving the WW/AS matchups, not the rest...

[Phantom]

I have a question about the deck. First let me say that I like it and it is very enjoyable to play. I proxied it up as a guantlet deck and was doing some testing vs. Faerie Stomy and I ran into this problem:

What is the game plan if a Chalice @2 comes down before Rift. I never won a game where this happened (and it happened quite often). I couldn't disenchant, abeyance, rift, or clasm. Swords helped for a little while, but eventually I had to lay a Humility. I'm assuming the plan is to Decree of Justice for a large amount, but my peeps kept getting killed by SoFI and Cursed Scrolls.

Just wanted to make sure I played this correctly. I held off on Humilty as long as possible (to try to hardcast a dragon) but some of Faeries creatures have ProRed, which is a bitch.

[URABAHN]

I'm not sure if boarding in Chalice vs. Faerie Stompy is the right move. Chalice is normally reserved for Combo decks.

[Phantom]

I'm not sure if boarding in Chalice vs. Faerie Stompy is the right move. Chalice is normally reserved for Combo decks.

Faerie was playing the Chalice and set it @2.

[URABAHN]

Faerie was playing the Chalice and set it @2.

You'd have to win with Decree. Cursed Scroll can kill one dude every turn, so make plenty of tokens.

[Phantom]

You'd have to win with Decree. Cursed Scroll can kill one dude every turn, so make plenty of tokens.

Ok, that's what I figured, I was just making sure I wasn't missing something (wouldn't have been the first time). I had problems making large decrees (above 6. the scroll had me on a clock and I couldn't cast a bunch of spells. plus I had to kill every creature he was playing b/c of the equipment out).

Anyway, I'll probably swap out 2 clasm for 2 WOG mainboard.

What does a Sideboard look like, and how many REBs are in it?

[SillyMetalGAT]

At the risk of sounding like a noob, would it be worth it to play Dovescape in this deck against Combo as a way to end the game? I know it costs 7 and if combo doesnt go off by turn 7 its GG, but I've played extensively against Solidarity and its come back from a failed combo attempt in the late game.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

I personally don't play RW Rifter, but I'm not a big fan of Dovescape. Sounds like it to me that you explained one good reason not to play the card. If combo doesn't combo out by turn 7.. GG. This is usually true in more cases than not. Against solidarity however, I suppose you could do something with Dovescape, but I;d need more convincing if I were to arm my R/W Rifter deck with them. But of course, I don't play R/W Rifter, so I could be completely wrong.

[Eldariel]

The deck is playing red. Pyrostatic Pillar is far more potent an anti-combo choice. Same goes to Rule of Law of course. Naturally they aren't hard locks, but they come down when it matters (you can buy that turn or two with Abeyances and Chants).

[Anarky87]

Has anyone been trying out Wing Shards in Rifter? I know I've been playing them in my version and they've performed pretty decent. I was also thinking of cutting one Wing Shard and possibly one Renewed Faith to add in two Starstorms, has anyone been trying Starstorm that could give some feedback on that? This is the version I'm playing:

9 Plains
7 Mountains
4 Forgotten Cave
4 Secluded Steppe
2 Plateau

4 Eternal Dragon

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Wing Shards
4 Lightning Rift
4 Renewed Faith
4 Decree of Justice
3 Wrath of God
3 Humility
3 Slice and Dice
2 Disenchant

And I've been thinking about -1 Wing Shard and -1 Renewed Faith/Decree for +2 Starstorm. Goblins is on the decline in my area, and we basically have no combo, but my SB is setup to attempt a win at it. I also have some other stuff in it for aggro, but I think the MD handles that pretty well. Also, is 3 or 4 Rifts the accepted and how many cycle cards do you think is the norm? I know I want to see Rift as soon as possible, so I'm playing the set, but I could see maybe cutting one of those and a WS for the Starstorms. That would also bring my cycling number up to 25.

Edit: Corrected deck list. Thanks for pointing that out, Clavio. I was wondering how any aggro deck could win when I played this deck and always drew at leat 3 Humilities a game ;)

[URABAHN]

I think 3 Lightning Rift is the right number for most matchups. You really don't want to play it until you've established control. That way you're not cycling away your removal like Slice and Dice and Starstorm. On the other hand, resolving two Rifts by turn 6-7 can also control the board or race your opponent. But because of the number of Pro Red and 3+ toughness baddies I don't think 4 is a good number. Remember who the aggressive deck is--not Rifter.

Starstorm is the only other true instant removal in the deck other than StP and Wing Shards. The Rift trigger and cycling Slice and Dice aren't as effective as instant removal in most cases, so I don't think of them as true instant removal.

1. It's necessary against Gro decks packing Nantuko Monastery in the board.
2. It makes Goblin decks running Rishadan Port cry.
3. It makes the Rifter mirror very favorable for you if they're not playing Starstorm.
4. It cycles.

Wing Shards does all the above except #3 & #4. I side out Abeyance for Wing Shards against Goblins, Angel Stompy, and Zoo decks.

[clavio]

Anarky has the tech play of 6 humilities by having them grouped into sets of 3.

3 Rifts is the right number. Controling the board is more important than racing your opponents.

[FallenOmnipotent]

So in the TMD thread, the tech seems to be Enlightened Tutor. I was just wondering what poeple have been/would cut for the card? And how many they are running?

With that change, a -1 Disenchant, +1 Seal of cleansing looks solid.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Enlightened Tutor is tech in Rifter the same way Quirion Dryad is tech in Gro. The card was in the first builds of Rifter which did not have the consistency of momentum to win games. When the build took a more streamlined, dare I say it Wombat-ish shape, it ditched one-of-answers and card disadvantage for a consistent gameplan. Progress, not regress.

A better question to my mind is whether you can switch all your basics to be Snow-Covered, and fit in that hot new tech from Coldsnap... but for colorless lands in a two color deck, I'd guess not.

Also, how do you side out Abeyance for Wing Shards? To my mind, that's like siding out Illusions of Grandeur for Donate. The two go hand in hand and shore up the Gro matchup in particular to the point of making it legitimately favorable.

[FallenOmnipotent]

What are your opinions about renewed faith? Seems like a sub-par card. I wouldn't know what to replace it with though... Keep in might i just got back into the format though...

Edit: Okay, i did some testing and the card is needed for the burn match-up... But i still lose it.

[Odd Mutation]

There are two Pulse of the Fields in my sideboard for this matchup. Together with the Rune of protection: Red and all the cycling, it would seem this is enough. Anybody else experiencing trouble in this matchup?

Odd mute.

[FallenOmnipotent]

Woops... Once again i must appolagize for my ignorance lol...

I have been testing the list without the Ruin of Protection. I guess that was a mistake. Pulse doesn't seem as bad anymore either. But might one consider playing more ruins over pulses?

Also, I've noticed that drawing a lighting rift is always nice. So I guess I'm questioning the 3x Lightning Rift builds. Extra damage is always nice. Then games 2 and 3 when people SB in enchantment hate, the 4th will probably come welcomed. It's never really a dead draw unless you have no cycle cards. And it helps to control the field throughout the game. I know there was a small conversation regarding this above, but it didn't seem to get many arguments for either side. Here was one of the arguments though:

I think 3 Lightning Rift is the right number for most matchups. You really don't want to play it until you've established control. That way you're not cycling away your removal like Slice and Dice and Starstorm. On the other hand, resolving two Rifts by turn 6-7 can also control the board or race your opponent. But because of the number of Pro Red and 3+ toughness baddies I don't think 4 is a good number. Remember who the aggressive deck is--not Rifter.

Then this will probably make me seem like a bigger newb than I already am, but, what do you guys think about adding a couple of the old cycle lands (i.e. smoldering creater, Drifting medow)? Now obviously they wouldn't come in as a play set but one might consider replacing a couple basic lands? I'm not very good at math, so I really don't know how to figure out how many cycle lands total would be optimal. The obvious drawback to this is more unbasic lands = more vunerable to wastelands.

[PTBNL]

FallenOmnipotent. I've been working on this deck recently and I agree with you that there should be 4 Lightning Rifts maindeck. I always want one in play and it is strong in multiples. Early on, it's our removal engine, and later on, the kill condition.

I've tested Drifting Meadow and Smoldering Crater since this deck could always use more cyclers. But as you mentioned, the vulnerability to Wasteland is a big drawback. To take that point further, I think the 2 Plateaus maindeck should become basic lands as well. This deck needs lots of land to get going and having an early land wasted is almost a sure loss against any decent deck. So with Meadow and Crater, I'd say, don't substitute basic lands for them but if you have extra room for some more cyclers, they're a decent maindeck option.

[frogboy]

You always want at least one Plateau so that you can Plainscycle for red mana.

[URABAHN]

There are two Pulse of the Fields in my sideboard for this matchup. Together with the Rune of protection: Red and all the cycling, it would seem this is enough. Anybody else experiencing trouble in this matchup?

Odd mute.

Which matchup are you referring to? If you're talking about Gro, Pulse probably won't resolve when you want it to. If you're talking about Goblins, Pulse is an "I win more." card. It won't help you in the early game when Goblins can beat your face for 15 damage on turn 3 and if the game goes late you're already favored unless they're running Burning Wish. RoP: Red is another "I win more." card vs. Goblins, unless they're running Pithing Needle which would make RoP: Red useless anyway.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I don't know what you guys are running in the side but I'd be more worried about..
1: Aggro /w Armageddon.
2: Any form of combo.
3: Equipment.
4: Pikula Type decks with 12 MD LD effects.
5: Destroy Humility & swing.
Sideboarding extra cards for Goblins seems pretty foolish when it's a matchup you should be winning anyways and since your precious sideboard slots should be eaten up addressing real concerns instead of playing Pulse of the Fields after stabalizing with Humility when you should be winning by that point anyways.

[Vardaman]

Don't make one line posts in the LMF.

Verbal Warning.


LMF posting rules (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=624).

[Nightmare]

Which matchup are you referring to? If you're talking about Gro, Pulse probably won't resolve when you want it to. If you're talking about Goblins, Pulse is an "I win more." card. It won't help you in the early game when Goblins can beat your face for 15 damage on turn 3 and if the game goes late you're already favored unless they're running Burning Wish. RoP: Red is another "I win more." card vs. Goblins, unless they're running Pithing Needle which would make RoP: Red useless anyway.The post above his was questioning the usefulness of Renewed Faith, and he mentioned that even with it, he still loses the Burn matchup. I would imagine Odd Mute is referring to this matchup when he replied with Pulse as a SB slot.

On that note, finding RoP: Red wins that match.

[FallenOmnipotent]

Rifter is clearly a meta-game deck. Therefore, your SB is gonna be pretty meta-gamed. Finding a common SB will be pretty difficult. If you plan to bring rifter to a big 100-man tourney, my suggestion is don't. Save your money.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Rifter is clearly a meta-game deck. Therefore, your SB is gonna be pretty meta-gamed. Finding a common SB will be pretty difficult. If you plan to bring rifter to a big 100-man tourney, my suggestion is don't. Save your money.
Yeah to bad noone told those guys that top 8'd at Lille and Philly that. Also they had about 2-3 cards difference in their sideboards. They both ran exactly the same cards just in different numbers.
Seriously though Armaggedon/LD is such a serious concern to this deck I just can't believe noone sideboards for it.

[Anarky87]

Seriously though Armaggedon/LD is such a serious concern to this deck I just can't believe noone sideboards for it.

QFT, Armageddon bends this deck over. I started packing Sacred Ground in my SB whenever I play it in my meta. My friend started running it in his Deadguy SB and it was a house against another guy that plays Rifter. It just amazingly tips the game in your favor. The other guy even held land back, expecting the card, but that didn't really help against the second one, sealing the deal.

[URABAHN]

QFT, Armageddon bends this deck over. I started packing Sacred Ground in my SB whenever I play it in my meta. My friend started running it in his Deadguy SB and it was a house against another guy that plays Rifter. It just amazingly tips the game in your favor. The other guy even held land back, expecting the card, but that didn't really help against the second one, sealing the deal.

Sacred Ground is a must-have in the current meta. Goblins are packing 'Geddon maindeck and the 'board, Gro players are starting to pack it in the 'board, and we all know Angel Stompy plays 'Geddon post-board. Make room for it by taking out all your anti-Solidarity tech, because it just won't matter.

Under the Tournament Reports forum, you'll find my little report about how poor a deck choice Rifter was for the Duel for Duals. If there's a good chance you're going to play against combo twice in a single tournament, don't run Rifter. Your 10 card sideboard isn't going to help against capable players who are ready for your Exalted Angels, Sphere of Resistance, Glowriders, Boils, and Rule of Laws. The problem isn't so much the quality of the hate, which is very good, it's that you still have to kill them. After testing with the fine Solidarity players at the Lucky Frog with 10 cards to board in, the results were a 60% winning percentage in their favor. Bear in mind, this is after you lose Game 1. You have a 40% chance to win Game 2 and 40% chance to win game 3. A 10-card anti Solidarity SB also means you have only 5 cards to board in for everyone else.

Here's the list I've been tinkering with since Kadilak's tourney:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [ON] Forgotten Cave
4 [ON] Secluded Steppe
2 [U] Plateau
9 [UNH] Plains
7 [UNH] Mountain

// Creatures
4 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
3 [ON] Lightning Rift
3 [ON] Slice and Dice
3 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [TE] Humility
4 [U] Swords to Plowshares
3 [ON] Starstorm
3 [4E] Wrath of God
3 [SC] Spark Spray
3 [WL] Abeyance
2 Orim's Thunder

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [WL] Abeyance
SB: 1 Orim's Thunder
SB: 3 [SC] Wing Shards
SB: 3 [NE] Mogg Salvage
SB: 4 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [9E] Sacred Ground

There are some unconventional card choices, I'll explain why I play them.

Orim's Thunder is beautiful against Chalice and fantastic against Angel Stompy if you pay the Kicker

Spark Spray replaces Renewed Faith because I liked having another answer for Goblin Lackey, Dark Confidant, Savannah Lions, Mother of Runes, and many other 1-toughness creatures. It also cycles for 1 less mana. It does make the Rifter mirror less favorable for you since you can't gain life.

Starstorm is an instant Wrath of God against Goblins, is another removal spell for Nimble Mongoose, and makes the Rifter mirror much more difficult for the person not playing it. Rifter mirror usually boils down to hardcasting Decree of Justice for 4 or more angels then playing Abeyance during your opponent's upkeep. Starstorm for X=4 means that plan just won't work.

Tormod's Crypt allows me to boast an awesome 70%-80% winning percentage vs. Gro, the trick is what you side out. It's also decent against Iggy Pop and RGSA.

Mogg Salvage helps vs. Gro because you can Shatter Pithing Needle for zero mana.

Sacred Ground was argued for earlier in this post.

Wing Shards should replace Starstorm in the Angel Stompy matchup and Abeyance in some other matchups like Zoo and 9-land Stompy.

If your metagame is mostly Gro, Goblins, and other aggro decks, Rifter is a great deck to play. At the Dual for Duels, where Solidarity was nearly 13% of the field and the Gro decks were scarce, I'd run far, far away from Rifter.

[frogboy]

Aren't all the decks that are boarding in Armageddon also boarding in Disenchant effects in order to beat your enchantments anyway, so Sacred Ground is pretty mediocre?

[Tao]

Your SB is bad. Mogg Salvage??? No way.
Why would you side this in vs. Gro? You already side in 4 Crypts and maybe 3 Sacred Grounds and Wing Shards. There won't be much left of your deck. There is nothing you side in vs. Gobbos while you should have something that replaces your Abeyances and Orim's Thunder. That Pyroclasm is good vs. Deadguy, too.

Renewed Faith is a really important part of this deck's strategy. Without it you will lose many games you already control to some form of sneaking through damage. That can be Jet / Bolt / Bolt by Zilla Stompy or Red Gro, some sacced Gobbos or a Cursed Scroll by Deadguy Ale. Furthermore Renewed Faith is your best card in the Burn matchup. In many other games the 2-6 life from cycled Faiths will be important, too.

[URABAHN]

Aren't all the decks that are boarding in Armageddon also boarding in Disenchant effects in order to beat your enchantments anyway, so Sacred Ground is pretty mediocre?

Second Sunrise would probably be better vs. AS and Goblins, worse against Gro. But Goblins would still need to find Disenchant for your Humility and Rift as well. I haven't tested with Second Sunrise, has anyone else?


Your SB is bad. Mogg Salvage??? No way.
Why would you side this in vs. Gro? You already side in 4 Crypts and maybe 3 Sacred Grounds and Wing Shards. There won't be much left of your deck. There is nothing you side in vs. Gobbos while you should have something that replaces your Abeyances and Orim's Thunder. That Pyroclasm is good vs. Deadguy, too.

Renewed Faith is a really important part of this deck's strategy. Without it you will lose many games you already control to some form of sneaking through damage. That can be Jet / Bolt / Bolt by Zilla Stompy or Red Gro, some sacced Gobbos or a Cursed Scroll by Deadguy Ale. Furthermore Renewed Faith is your best card in the Burn matchup. In many other games the 2-6 life from cycled Faiths will be important, too.

Tao, if you're going to rely on two Disenchant effects to destroy needle to win with DoJ so you don't go to time, you're sadly mistaken. Cycling DoJ for Soldier tokens is your best win condition post-board when Gro boards in Disenchant effects for Humility and Rift.

I wouldn't side in Sacred Ground vs. Gro, and I don't recall saying or doing so. If you resolve Crypt, they won't dare play Armageddon because it'll take 10-20 turns to beat you down with one or more 1/1s. At the Duel for Duals, I still managed to get to 5 lands before I died to a Threshed Mongoose, too bad they were all Mountains. Because of Crypt, I don't think you need to board in Wing Shards, either. Slice and Dice, Starstorm, and Wrath can take care of Mongoose, threshed or not.

Scroll vs. Eternal Dragon is a race Deadguy will not win, Renewed Faith does little to change that. Rifter is favored vs. Deadguy Ale because their creatures are tiny and Scroll is their primary win condition. You are right about Burn, though, without Renewed Faith, Burn will probably kill you before you get to 7 lands and swing with Eternal Dragon. Wow, I lose to Burn. Rifter also loses to multiple Ritual effect, Infernal Contract, Tendrils of Agony Storm combo, but I'm not going to lose sleep over that. While Burn's numbers may have been great at the Duel for Duals, I don't remember seeing any of it after Round 3. Burn is not a very good deck.

[Elfrago]

Hi, I've just builded the deck and played a few games with.
Well, the matchup aganist combo simply sucks. The matchup aganist decks packing counterspells is a little better but it still sucks.
What can I do to improve those matchups? I'm not too afraid of aggro since in my meta there are only a few aggro decks.

[URABAHN]

You can build a 10-15 card sideboard to defeat combo, but even then your win % may not rise to where you want it. I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't even try to beat combo that doesn't rely on the graveyard. Salvagers Game and Iggy Pop can be hurt by Tormod's Crypt in the board.

[Anarky87]

Hi, I've just builded the deck and played a few games with.
Well, the matchup aganist combo simply sucks. The matchup aganist decks packing counterspells is a little better but it still sucks.
What can I do to improve those matchups? I'm not too afraid of aggro since in my meta there are only a few aggro decks.

For decks with counterspell control, perhaps board 4 Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast, and a couple Boils. For Combo, meh, there's Rule of Law, Abeyance, Gilded Light, Tormod's Crypt, etc. Even with all those, it's still not that favorable, so perhaps just throw some of those in your SB for combo and hope for the best.

[Eldariel]

If you really want chances against combo, you'll have to dedicate some maindeck slots to hate. That and heavy anti-combo sideboard. The deck is pretty hard to wield in a combo-heavy meta though, Duel for Duals goes to show that. Control-decks really just didn't finish in the sea of Solidarity.

[Tacosnape]

Has anyone else considered dedicating -all- the maindeck slots to crushing Aggro and Mirror and the like, then having a ridiculous anti-combo board? I'm maindecking quad Slice and Dice and a fourth Rift in place of Abeyance (Which I just found out last weekend is pronounced "Aveyance"), and my board's packed with Abeyance, Rule of Law, Crypt, REB, Boil, etc.

I have no idea whether or not this is a good strategy, though, because I haven't tested the non-combo matchups to determine if my maindeck dedication to aggro-bashing is sufficient to hold up to the various tricks Aggro decks can bring in to beat me.

[quicksilver]

[QUOTE=Tacosnape](Which I just found out last weekend is pronounced "Aveyance")[quote]

No, it's pronouced with a b. You can look it up.

[URABAHN]

Has anyone else considered dedicating -all- the maindeck slots to crushing Aggro and Mirror and the like, then having a ridiculous anti-combo board? I'm maindecking quad Slice and Dice and a fourth Rift in place of Abeyance (Which I just found out last weekend is pronounced "Aveyance"), and my board's packed with Abeyance, Rule of Law, Crypt, REB, Boil, etc.

I have no idea whether or not this is a good strategy, though, because I haven't tested the non-combo matchups to determine if my maindeck dedication to aggro-bashing is sufficient to hold up to the various tricks Aggro decks can bring in to beat me.

It's a terrible strategy. It means you've got no answer for Armageddon and only a couple of answers for Pithing Needle, Winter Orb, and Suppression Field.

Goblins are packing Armageddon, Gro sometimes does, and Angel Stompy has been packing it for some time.

Pithing Needle shuts down Decree of Justice and Eternal Dragon, two cards you need against Gro.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

I hope the metagame at the DLD in Syracuse is gonna be full of rifter!!:laugh:

[kicks_422]

Would Trinisphere be a good SB card for Rifter? Since you'll be cycling most of the time anyway, and the only ones you want to cast are either done so before the Sphere or cost more than 3... Maybe it could even be an MD card... :tongue:

[My Name Is Scott]

Would Trinisphere be a good SB card for Rifter? Since you'll be cycling most of the time anyway, and the only ones you want to cast are either done so before the Sphere or cost more than 3... Maybe it could even be an MD card... :tongue:
It doesn't really help any of your matchups. The deck is too slow for trinisphere to pose an imminent threat to combo, so they can just lean back and bounce it when they want to go off(plus, you have better options.). Against aggro, you would rather have removal.

I hope the metagame at the DLD in Syracuse is gonna be full of rifter!!
Two rifter decks showed at the D4D, so don't get your hopes up.

[Citrus-God]

Do you guys think that Rifter could use the Scrying Sheets/Sensei's Divining Top thing? I mean, it helps you make a consistent land drop each turn, thins the deck of lands, and increases your card quality with the help of Top.

I mean, the deck could look like this...

3 Secluded Steppe
3 Forgotten Cave
1 Plateau
4 Scrying Sheets
9 Snow Covered Plains
6 Snow Covered Mountain

3 Eternal Dragon

4 Renewed Faith
2 Abeyance
3 Slice and Dice
3 Decree of Justice
2 Rune of Protection: Red
2 Akroma's Vengeance
3 Lightning Rift
3 Humility
3 Pyroclasm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard:
2 Abeyance
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Exalted Angel
3 Disenchant


Or something like that, if you want to cut the list down to 60 cards, cut a Scrying Sheet.

[BoardinCharlie]

The card is powerful there is no doubt about it...but the only problem is Rifter is known to be the deck that packs none or very few waste landable targets. I'm not sure if you could sacrifice that aspect of the deck for possible card advantage, not to mention the deck is already mana hungry in the first couple turns.

[bigbear102]

Would Trinisphere be a good SB card for Rifter? Since you'll be cycling most of the time anyway, and the only ones you want to cast are either done so before the Sphere or cost more than 3... Maybe it could even be an MD card... :tongue:

It has been heavily tested in Wombat, and the results are that it isn't nearly fast enough to disrupt, and is easily worked around. The 4 Sphere of Resistence and 4 Glowrider option are much better, but I don't think they could be fit into the SB, unless we take TacoSnape's idea, and put 8 full slots in for combo, and still have abeyance in the board, it will still leave us 7 slots for other matches. I'm not saying it's a good idea, but it worked mildly well for Wombat. It's not a perfect plan, but this deck does have something to speak of for a clock, and it only involves 1 card having to actually be hardcast. Seems like it might work out, i dunno.

[ookus2]

You can build a 10-15 card sideboard to defeat combo, but even then your win % may not rise to where you want it. I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't even try to beat combo that doesn't rely on the graveyard. Salvagers Game and Iggy Pop can be hurt by Tormod's Crypt in the board.
I agree with URABAHN here. Rifter is just plain bad against most combo. There are options and I’ve beat my share of combo players, but the odds aren’t in your favor. So let me suggest something radical. What if you tailored your SB to beat those few non combo match ups that still cause problems.

Wow, lets pause for a second for all those player in combo heavy metas. This is crazy isn’t it? A deck that isn’t built to beat combo. But believe it or not, there are metas out there that aren’t combo heavy and in these environments rifter should smash the rest of the field.

But there are still a few decks out there that cause problems for rifter. The one that I have the most problems with is B/W Pikula. This deck seems to clean out my hand of all of my good enchantments before I’m able play them. Or they will use LD to keep me off one of my colors. Has anyone else had problems with this matchup? And what kinds of SB options have you used?

From what I’ve seen, people playing B/W will board out their STPs for disenchants or other forms of enchantment hate. So it seems like a creature would be the best answer. One that I came across that might work against B/W (but only B/W) is Order of the Sacred Torch.

1WW
2/2 Paladin
T: Pay 1 life: counter black spell

Once the STPs are removed from the deck; nothing can deal with these guys. Except builds with Scroll, but that seems to be on its way out, according to the B/W thread.

Has anyone else had problems with other any other non combo builds?

And thanks in advance for not slashing this idea since you live in a combo heavy meta.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Second Sunrise would probably be better vs. AS and Goblins, worse against Gro. But Goblins would still need to find Disenchant for your Humility and Rift as well. I haven't tested with Second Sunrise, has anyone else?

I did. The fact that you have to keep 1WW open each turn for it to be meaningful kind of makes it irrelevant as then they'll just straight up bash your face in with creatures. Dropping Sacred Ground turn 2 and moving on with your plans is a much stronger option.

[Evil Roopey]

1WW
2/2 Paladin
T:Pay 1 life: counter black spell

Fixed. Big difference.

[ookus2]

OK, I'm bumping the Rift thread to see if anyone has some insight on creature based sideboards. My idea of running the Order of Sacred Torch hopefully will be tested tonight, depending on the field.

There also seems to be a lot of talk about Glowriders in the board too. Has anyone tried that? Again tonight if the field allows I'll try that out against the combo out there.

[Bane of the Living]

I dont think this deck should be considered a Legacy Metagame deck since it's now underplayed, and hasnt put up numbers. It placed 27th on day one of the two day dual for duals. Wow.

Move this deck to Open. Angel Stompy seriously deserves to be here more than this deck.

[quicksilver]

I dont think this deck should be considered a Legacy Metagame deck since it's now underplayed, and hasnt put up numbers. It placed 27th on day one of the two day dual for duals. Wow.

Move this deck to Open. Angel Stompy seriously deserves to be here more than this deck.

Have you been reading the adept forum? We are currently discussing this and most agree with you. We are gona wait till after the Wrold Championships to make any descisions.

[Bane of the Living]

Have you been reading the adept forum? We are currently discussing this and most agree with you. We are gona wait till after the Wrold Championships to make any descisions.

No I'm not a Legacy Adept. Can I get a nomination?

[BiscuitVader]

Me and my friend were messing around with this deck, but found that the Solidarity matchup sucked.

So we were planning on testing a build with some fetchlands and a R/U and W/U duel land, so we could play with Meddling Mage.

It seems like it could work. Against Goblins, it keeps them from playing/trades with Warchief or Piledriver or someone untill you can cast Humility.

Against Solidarity, it gives you an extra turn or two, while they Wish for an answer, and against Threshold, it can shut off anything you need it to, plus is a good counterspell bait.

I'm going to test it, anyone have any comments on the idea?

[Goblin Snowman]

Rifter in general has a poor combo matchup. Having 8 or more slots to shore up weak game is what I've seen done. Other options include have Glowriders, Glided Light, Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, or Sphere of Resistence are all possible solutions. I dislike Glowrider here being that you play 16 ways of killing him or negating him, but I have seen someone try it.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Splashing blue just for Meddling Mage would be a very bad decision. Stick to your two colors and just devote a good portion of your sideboard against combo.
You have several options in this scenario, including Orim's Chant, Abeyance, Guilded Light, 3 Sphere, Sphere of Resistance and Defense Grid.

[Goblin Snowman]

Splashing blue just for Meddling Mage would be a very bad decision. Stick to your two colors and just devote a good portion of your sideboard against combo.
You have several options in this scenario, including Orim's Chant, Abeyance, Guilded Light, 3 Sphere, Sphere of Resistance and Defense Grid.

I don't like Defense Grid, seeing as how it only affects one combo deck, namely, Solidarity. I also think that Rifter is one of the decks that can really abuse Chalice, since it only has 4 cards @ 1 (Swords), which should be boarded out against Combo anyway. Pyrostatic Pillar is another one I had forgotten until a few minutes ago.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Have you been reading the adept forum? We are currently discussing this and most agree with you. We are gona wait till after the Wrold Championships to make any descisions.


Yup... nice secret society we used to have.

[diffy]

Hey,

I've put a lot of thought into how improving this deck lately, because, if I can't get the missig stuff for my 3c Slide, I'm going to take this to a major tournament in Germany (1st place= mox emerald wtf?, second german limited tundra...) and so I would apreciate your comments on my list which tries to include all sort of suggestions made in this thread so far:

1 Plateau
10 Plains
7 Mountain
4 Secluded Steppe
4 Forgotten Cave

26 lands

2 Wrath of God
3 Pyroclasm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Slice and Dice

12 removal

3 Eternal Dragon
3 Decree of Justice
3 Renewed Faith

9 Just cycling

2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Rune of Protection: Red
3 Lightning Rift
3 Humility

10 Toolbox

2 Abeyance
1 Orim's Chant

3 No, Sir

60 Cards

1 Rule of Law
1 Blood Moon
2 Sacred Ground
1 Spark Spray
1 Pyroclasm
2 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Boil
1 Orim's Chant
1 xxx

15 Cards

The list is a slight modify of a list I was playing a couple of months ago and runs solidly, but I still want to fit a Moat in the maindeck and don't know what to take out.

Please help+comment

thanks in advance

[URABAHN]

Hey,

I've put a lot of thought into how improving this deck lately, because, if I can't get the missig stuff for my 3c Slide, I'm going to take this to a major tournament in Germany (1st place= mox emerald wtf?, second german limited tundra...) and so I would apreciate your comments on my list which tries to include all sort of suggestions made in this thread so far:

1 Plateau
10 Plains
7 Mountain
4 Secluded Steppe
4 Forgotten Cave

26 lands

2 Wrath of God
3 Pyroclasm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Slice and Dice

12 removal

3 Eternal Dragon
3 Decree of Justice
3 Renewed Faith

9 Just cycling

2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Rune of Protection: Red
3 Lightning Rift
3 Humility

10 Toolbox

2 Abeyance
1 Orim's Chant

3 No, Sir

60 Cards

1 Rule of Law
1 Blood Moon
2 Sacred Ground
1 Spark Spray
1 Pyroclasm
2 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Boil
1 Orim's Chant
1 xxx

15 Cards

The list is a slight modify of a list I was playing a couple of months ago and runs solidly, but I still want to fit a Moat in the maindeck and don't know what to take out.

Please help+comment

thanks in advance

You're going to lose to combo, you're going to lose to Goblins post-board, you're going to lose to U/G/w Gro post-board if they bring in Armageddon.

vs. Solidarity - Game 1 you give Solidarity time to get to 8 lands because Rift and Decree of Justice aren't fast enough to win before they combo. You have to hope for 2x Abeyance, hope they don't have Force, or hope they didn't find 2x High Tide. Concede Game 1 and go to Game 2 where you have to win back to back games. With your sideboard, I don't see that happening. 9 cards isn't enough, because you can't win before Solidarity finds whatever they need to beat you.

vs. IGGy Pop - This may be a worse matchup than Solidarity because IGGy Pop can win before Turn 3. Your build includes no graveyard removal in the board and you can't stop the Leyline of the Void/Ill-Gotten Gains combo which will remove all the cards in your hand from the game. Again, Rift and Decree aren't fast enough to put any pressure on IGGy Pop to win any sooner than they want to.

vs. Armageddon - 2 Sacred Ground won't stop Armageddon. You need to find it sooner. Also keep in mind that Goblins and Gro both have access to enchantment removal and they'll get rid of Sacred Ground first because a bunch of 1/1s can still kill you.

RW Rifter is a poor choice in this day and age, I'd recommend playing something else at your Tournament, like Goblins. You have all the cards for that, right?

[diffy]

You're going to lose to combo


Well, that' what Rifter did since it was created... If I win against aggro and control but loose to like <10% of the field, that's good enough for me.



You're going to lose to Goblins post-board, you're going to lose to U/G/w Gro post-board if they bring in Armageddon.


Armageddon really is an issue... and therefore I've redesigned my sideboard and trown over board the cards adressing the combo matchup... which just wouldn't become better despite all the hate.

New sideboard:

Utility: (notice the MB tutors? :P)
1x Blood Moon
1x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle

Vs. Blue Based Control:
2x Pyroblast
3x Red Elemental Blast
1x Orim's Chant

Vs. Aggro/Armageddon:
2x Sacred Ground
2x Second Sunrise
1x Spark Spray
1x Wrath of God




RW Rifter is a poor choice in this day and age, I'd recommend playing something else at your Tournament, like Goblins. You have all the cards for that, right?


As said, this is more of a backup plan if I can't get the cards for the other deck I'm testing at the moment... and I don't see completing it before the 29th, so I beg you people to give some constructive criticism about the deck.

Points to debate:

-what to take out for 1 MB Moat?
-aggro and control crushing SB or combo crushing SB?
-how to board out against NQG (I've got alot of hate but do not know what to take out 0o)

Thanks in advance

[Mirrislegend]

Hey, I was just wondering if the new Stuffy Doll/Guilty Conscience combo has room in here? The main reason that I'm wondering is that when I built Guilty Stuff casually, it was R/W (R for Seething Song primarily, and W for board control). But the deck came along pretty quickly. I understand that it is very vulnerable to common hate, but it has some distinct advantages over the Eternal Dragon plan: it's a bit faster than the Dragon plan where it really counts- in the combo matchup; Guilty Conscience doubles as removal for a lot of creatures; and the necessities of the deck take up less space, thus making more room for goodies. Here's the Rifter list I'm going off of (just the first list from SCG Legacy database):

Lands
7 Mountain
9 Plains
4 Forgotten Cave
2 Plateau
4 Secluded Steppe

Creatures
4 Eternal Dragon

Enchantments
3 Humility
3 Lightning Rift
2 Rune Of Protection: Red

Instants
3 Abeyance
2 Disenchant
3 Renewed Faith
4 Swords To Plowshares

Sorceries
2 Akroma's Vengeance
3 Decree Of Justice
2 Pyroclasm
3 Slice And Dice


Sideboard:
3 Rule Of Law
1 Abeyance
2 Boil
2 Disenchant
1 Pulse Of The Fields
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroclasm

Now, I dont have a tested version of this everything, but this is generally what I'd do to make the shift.

As I was studying what I would take out, I realized that I was taking out a significant number of cycling cards. Thus, I'm going to present my general changes as if I were to remove the cycling mechanic entirely.

Remove (Non-cycling):
- 3 Lightning Rift
- 2 Eternal Dragon
- 1 Decree of Justice
- 3 Humility
- 2 CoP: Red
- 1 Akroma's Vengeance
- 3 Slice and Dice
- 3 Renewed Faith
- 4 Forgotten Cave
- 4 Secluded Steppe
- 2 Plains
- 2 Mountains
- Other basic land adjustment based on CC shifts (maintain same # of basic lands, just change ration)


Again, this is the general version of what I'd do, thus I dont have a great sense of the exact numbers.

Add (non-cycling):
+ 2 Pyroclasm
+ 2-3 Enlightened Tutor
+ 3-4 Stuffy Doll
+ 2-4 Guilty Conscience
+ 2-3 Sensei's Divining Top
+ 2-4 Magma Jet (Top synergy)
+ 2-3 Wrath of God
+ 1 Red Fetchlands
+ 7 White Fetchlands
+ 2 Plateau
+ Basic land adjustment based on CC shifts

I'd also consider adding Lightning Helix, Faith's Fetters, and more burn, if there are extra slots after all the carving is done.

If you want to maintain the cycling, then many cards would be left in, and the SDT/Magma Jet, Helix, Fetters, and extra burn slots wouldnt even be open in the first place. I'm have no idea if the cycling or non-cycling versions of GuiltyStuff.dec would be better.

Here's a sample list to get things rolling:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation

// Lands
4 Plateau
1 Mountain
11 Plains
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath

// Creatures
3 Stuffy Doll
2 Eternal Dragon

// Spells
2 Disenchant
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pyroclasm
3 Wrath of God
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Abeyance
4 Lightning Helix
3 Guilty Conscience
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Decree of Justice
1 Akroma's Vengeance
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

NB: It registered as I was making this list on MWS that it's mostly Rabid Wombat, with said combo kill, and a red splash. However, I stand by the red splash, as Pyroclasm is a WoG that is viable in Legacy vs aggro. And Helix is beautiful support for handling aggro. It's a rare day when Pyroclasm + Helix cannot turn the tide vs an aggro deck.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

One last note: While all comments are welcome, please keep in mind that this is just an idea, and a wholly untested one at that. I'm not making claims about how this is strictly superior to Rifter, or how it will bring any archetype back into the spotlight: its just an idea that I tried to flesh out a bit to help things along. While I'm not expecting such overt reactions that result from bad reading in the Open forum, I know how much it derails things, and I'm just hoping to avoid it via this clarification.

-Mirrislegend

[BiscuitVader]

This is my current Rifter list. I have added blue into it, for two extra cycle lands, and Meddling Mage. MM (naming Cunning Wish) and CotV set at one is a lock against most Solidarity builds... Atleast game one.

// Lands
4 [ON] Forgotten Cave
4 [ON] Secluded Steppe
1 [5E] Mountain (1)
2 [U] Volcanic Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [R] Plateau
2 [P2] Plains (1)
2 [B] Tundra
2 [ON] Lonely Sandbar
2 [TE] Stalking Stones

// Creatures
4 [PS] Meddling Mage
3 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
2 [B] Wrath of God
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [ON] Lightning Rift
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [TE] Humility
2 [DIS] Seal of Fire
3 [A] Swords to Plowshares
3 [ON] Slice and Dice
3 [ON] Renewed Faith
2 [US] Rune of Protection: Red

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [US] Rune of Protection: Red
SB: 2 [8E] Boil
SB: 3 [U] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 4 [CS] Jotun Grunt

My SB sucks, so I really want some help with that, as well as suggestions for the maindeck.

And dont tell me blue doesn't belong in this deck untill you have tried it. It is alot better than you would think.

[Citrus-God]

my god... you people really misinterpret the use of Rifter. First of all, Rifter is a metagame deck, and a metagame deck's entire purpose in the first place is to be designed to answer a certain metagame. Rifter is exactly that, as it answers all Creature-based metas. Rifter was meant to lose to combo, as that's it's actual weakness. In this case, you play soemthing else if Combo is big in your meta.

Also, I would not say this is a poor deck to play, unless you play at Virginia... which is infested with Solidarity, and that is the last thing you want.

[Cait_Sith]

I think it is about time this thread deserves a bump. With Solidarity's popularity waning and TES being not as poor a matchup as Solidarity, the deck has less to fear from its horrendous combo matchup. Furthermore, Survival, Meathooks, and Loam decks are on the rise, some of which are not terrible matchups against Rifter. However, some examination will be required. Here is an build that did well in 2006:

// Lands
2 [A] Plateau
9 [P3] Plains (1)
7 [TSP] Mountain (4)
4 [ON] Secluded Steppe
4 [ON] Forgotten Cave

// Creatures
4 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
3 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [ON] Slice and Dice
3 [ON] Renewed Faith
2 [B] Disenchant
2 [9E] Pyroclasm
3 [WL] Abeyance
2 [ON] Akroma's Vengeance
3 [TE] Humility
2 [US] Rune of Protection: Red
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [ON] Lightning Rift

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [B] Disenchant
SB: 2 [9E] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [WL] Abeyance
SB: 2 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 3 [MR] Rule of Law
SB: 2 [7E] Boil
SB: 2 [R] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields

The question now is how needed are some of these?

Rule of Law: Essential against Storm based combo, but can be slow. Maybe CotV would be better?

Disenchant: Is it as a 2/2 split between main and side too many? Other than Pithing Needle nothing immediately comes to mind as being a serious problem, although being able to nuke mana artifacts is nice.

Boil: With Solidarity less popular now this only shines against Thresh and Gro, but something as simple as Humility can cause them problems for a long time. On the flip side, if you Boil before they Armageddon you tend to be in a good place.

Pyro/REB: These are useful in a variety of MUs and should probably stay.

Pulse of the Fields: Its good vs Burn, Goblins, and Red Thresh/Gro. I would keep it. (Technically is can also work vs Storm Based combo, but I only pulled that off once vs TES)

On the MD:

Should there be some cards that are better vs combo in the main? I am not thinking of a massive change, that would be incredibly stupid and greatly weaken the decks aggro matchup, its primary winner. Right now there is Abeyance, which is a good card, but is that enough? Being able to shut someone off mid-combo is excellent, but the incredibly slow clock of this deck gives them incredible time to bounce back.

[blackguard90]

I actually saw a very interesting version of rifter that ran enlightened tutors, pyrostatic pillars, draco, erratic explosion, and other combo hosers in MD. I don't have a complete deck list, but it seems like its combo match-up is greatly bolstered by the immediate 16 damage to the face and pillars.

[Alex_Van_R]

immediate 16 damage

And what if you reveal Eternal Dragon?

[Citrus-God]

Here's my deck....


// Lands 26
4 Secluded Steppe
4 Forgotten Cave
2 Plateau
9 Plains
7 Mountain


// Creatures 3
3 Eternal Dragon


// Spells 32
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Starstorm
3 Wrath of God
3 Slice and Dice
3 Humility
2 Akroma's Vengeance
3 Lightning Rift
4 Renewed Faith
2 Abeyance
3 Decree of Justice
2 Disenchant


// Sideboard 15
2 Disenchant
2 Abeyance
3 Boil
4 Glowrider
4 Orim's Chant



mehh.... deck seems really janky.... mehh....

[Xero]

Furthermore, Survival, Meathooks, and Loam decks are on the rise, some of which are not terrible matchups against Rifter.

Wow, a deck which has some not terrible matchups. Sign me up :tongue:

I think Gobs. is declining a bit too, which was the main (only?) reason to play this deck.

[Citrus-God]

Wow, a deck which has some not terrible matchups. Sign me up :tongue:

I think Gobs. is declining a bit too, which was the main (only?) reason to play this deck.


Sadly the only reason I dont want to play this deck is solely because of Counterbalance. At least Wing Shards doesnt scoop to crap like Counterbalance....

[slyfer]

Why counterbalance would scare rifter??? you can play wing shards (cc3), sword to plow(cc1, ok could go under top-balance), humilty (cc4), when rift is down you simply ignore counterbalance...
Decree ignores counterbalance....

Rifter has problems also against armageddon.deck...... I think game 1 is pretty a bye for them....

all other matchup are still ok

@combo matchup: yes, this deck generally is weak vs combo because of the high number of dead cards (that are anti creature cards), but 1 year ago the only combo we saw in tournament was solidarity, and it could win even against our 4 orim chant + 4 red elemental blast + 4 pyroblast side.....
BUT nowadays there are other combo decks that can be shut down with orim chant in the middle of the storm, or protect themselves only with xantid swarm which can be easily removed. Some combo deck that pushed some results are creature based also (thik about aluren, or life), so I think there is an edge for this deck to say something vs "non-solidarity" combo.
Note finally that solidarity isn't always in "all-instant" form. it can be in the form of "snap+cloud of faeries" and that version is weaker vs rifter, because it's sorcery speed, cannot go off in responce to everything. :)

[Citrus-God]

1cc hits Swords, REB, Chant
2cc hits Rift, Abeyance, and Disenchant
4cc hits Humility, Boil, and Wrath

Of course, you say DoJ gets around Counterbalance. The reason I'm scared of Counterbalance decks because they also run Needle. When they run Needle, you know they're keeping you from finding outs against them.

[slyfer]

I've also have much problem in testing vs crazy landstill build (4 color with pernicious deed x4), i simply lose because of his crucible of the world.
Or decks based with crucible + exploration, than can armageddon at some point and they recover just so quickly :(
I thought we had a fine control matchup due to cycling mechanic incounterable, but maybe all the dead cards vs creatures haven't much sense

@antiUSA: if u play a couple of akroma vengeance you have outs to all the needles and counterbalance (if solution doesn't play hard counters but only the soft lock)
Needle on decree, you make 3 angel 4/4 sorcery :)

[Elfrago]

I've had tons of problems aganist landstill too. Crucible simply wrecks you giving them tons of card advantage. I usually board in Reb's, additional disenchants and Boil to go along with Abeyance and Akroma's Vengeance, but its still a tough matchup. Crush that crucible as early as possible, but watchout for Fows and counterspells on disenchant.

Counterbalance instead does not seem too bad. Decree OWNS them.

[Citrus-God]

@antiUSA: if u play a couple of akroma vengeance you have outs to all the needles and counterbalance (if solution doesn't play hard counters but only the soft lock)
Needle on decree, you make 3 angel 4/4 sorcery :)

It's against Threshold... the Hatfield one.

Anyways, if I want Vegeance to resolve, it's going to be hard, considering the fact that they run 7 hard counters in addition to Counterbalance. It's also very hard to protect because they have Counterbalance.

Again on the DoJ thing, Needle early game. Needle late game on Dragon. That seems reasonable, right?


Also, how do you guys play against Landstill? This deck is an anti-control deck. It should beat decks like Landstill with ease.

Anyways, this deck beats Control match ups because it does one thing Control decks cant do right in the Control mirror: make consistent land drops. You make those land drops, you win the game. It's simple.

If you want to combat Deed, I suggest you replace the Disenchants with Pithing Needles maindecked. I played Snow Wombat, and I always used Pithing Needle to save myself from being screwed over by stuff like Deeds or Nantuko Monastery.

[Elfrago]

The problem aganist control is that we create a lot of dead cards in their hands, but then those cards are useful aganist our winning conditions. They usually keep counters in their hand and throw 'em at our rifts. Dragon gets StP'ed as fast as possible, and Decree meets their mass removal. So, usually, we are problematic for them, but in the long run they are favored. Maybe 2-3 urza's rage in the board are a good alternative win condition aganist control?

EDIT: Chalice of the void in the sideoard aganist combo is amazing!

[Citrus-God]

They have more dead cards than we do. It's very well evenly matched.

Nantuko Monasteries and Factories always get the hammer from us. I mean, we have so much removal, we can actually "out-removal" them. Besides that, our card quality is better, since it's our entire deck. They just have FoF and Brainstorms. At the end, we have more cards than they do that actually do "something" in this match-up. It should be even matched really.

[Elfrago]

They get the card advantage they need recurring lands with Crucible. As long as we let crucible on the board, Factories & Monasteries are a costant threat. I agree with what you said, the key in this matchup is destroing the crucible ( and it's not so easy actually).

Anyway the match will be long and boring.

[Citrus-God]

You as a control player has to pressure them as well. Deciding whether to play Deed against a horde of Soldier tokens or play CoW is a decision. Control mirrors are full of decisions. Just find ways to keep the Landstill player from gaining a critical mass and your good.

Also, Crucible isnt a game-turning card. It's a poor excuse for them to keep making consistent land drops, when you obviously have the upper hand in terms of land drops. They have 2 CoWs, 4 BS, and 3 FoF. The chances of them hitting a CoW is high, but chances for it to give them a dominent position isnt much. Rifter and Wombat were orginally designed to fight Landstill. Just knowing what to do against them during each phase of the game is what makes those Wombat and Rifter players so great.

[mercenarybdu]

I just established my version with mods here.....

4 Plateau
6 Plains
6 Mountain
4 Forgotten Caves
4 Secluded Steppe

4 Eternal Dragon
4 Exalted Angel<
4 Jotun Grunt<

4 Lightning Rift
4 Incencerate<
4 Lightning Bolt<
4 Shard Volley<
4 Renewed Faith
4 Lightning Helix<

SB
in the works


....Since I figured that I'll be cycling and using a lot of cards I just mainboard a play set of Grunts as they have kept me going from running low on cards if they could survive long enough to push a lot of my cards back into my deck.

I have yet to test it as I have nobody to test the prototype at the moment, but I do know that it leans a lot into the Sligh side.

My SB is still in the works and currently has the decrees in there along with a few mindcensors. I'm still determining what else to toss in the SB with the funding I have so little of due most of it being plowed into my version of DS.

[ykpon]

hey
yesteraday was my first tourney after i upgraded (i think so) my wombat into rifter. it was about 25 people tourney and i lost in semifinals against crazy rgbu agroloam. my matchups were uw landstill (0-0), burn (2-1), cephalid breakfast (2-0), ubwg countertop (ID), 2 times rgb goblins (ID in swiss and 2-0 in top 8) and that agroloam (0-2). here is my list (i won one of latest m-l trials with it and changed nothing. mb it had to be a little more different in my meta):

// Lands
1 [A] Plateau
4 [ON] Forgotten Cave
4 [ON] Secluded Steppe
7 [UNH] Mountain
10 [UNH] Plains

// Creatures
4 [PR] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [ON] Renewed Faith
3 [ON] Starstorm
4 [SC] Spark Spray
3 [TE] Humility
2 [DK] Blood Moon
3 [FNM] Slice and Dice
4 [FNM] Lightning Rift
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
3 [SC] Gilded Light

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DK] Blood Moon
SB: 3 [US] Rune of Protection: Red
SB: 4 [WL] Abeyance
SB: 4 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 3 [AP] Orim's Thunder

i didnt run any decrees but now i would try to find place for 1 or 2 of for control matchups. usually this deck can use a lot of mana w/o decree.
md blood moons are still in testing, mb ill add 3rd one.

some thoughts:
1) i hate mass ld. geddon isnt popular in my meta. but devastating dreams is. i dont like cards like sacred ground. did anyone successfully try chalise? my worst matchup in my meta is agroloam i think. and chalise can help cant it? also its ok against combos, *****, burn and some other decks. but it hurts us a little too. what do u think?
2) every time i had starstorm i cycled it. even agaist goblins i had enough removal to do it. mb to change it into radiant's judjement or smthg else? judgement seems ok because if i havent humility tarmo, crusher, terravore, sea drake or tomsbstalker can be a trouble. also cycling 2 is better than cycling 3.
3) there are always 1-2 burns and 0-1 dragonstompy in my meta. should i waste my sb with runes or to cut em (mb to play 2-3 md just to cycle against all other decks)?
4) not all combodecks are bad mus. cephalid breakfast seems a good one and belcher is quite ok too. other combodecks in my meta are life and salvager but i didnt test against them yet.
5) i played rifter in a make-ur-own-standart tourney on magic league and was killed with epochrasites. it gave me an idea to play them myself because they seems to be working amazing under humility (if any judge thinks it isnt so plz tell me). also the only way to kill em is stp and it will protect my dragon in late game.
6) what do u think about blood moon in this deck?

i need ur help :o)

sorry for my bad english cuz im russian and for my small letters cuz my shift button is broken. ykpon.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I have always been a fan of Rifter/Astral Rift, I used to play it in Extended WAY back when, but I personally don't think Blood Moon is good in Rifter because there is no acceleration into it. Legacy is such a fast format that Blood Moon on turn 3 won't just stop your opponent in their tracks cause they have already fetched out their basics and it has a much better chance of being countered as opposed to just completly punishing them with the card on turn 1. Starstorm seems like such a strong card but maybe 3x is to many? I think you should try cutting the 2x Blood Moons and 1x Starstorm from the main and put in 3x Decree of Justice. Also, even though you are not partial towards Sacred Ground that is the best answer for Armageddon and Devastating Dreams that Rifter has. The only other solution I can think of would be Crucible of Worlds which seems far inferior to Sacred Ground for what you need the card to do.

[mercenarybdu]

I just created a SB for the plan above....

SB
4 Swords to Plows
3 Decree of Justice
2 Brion Stoutarm
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
2 Wing Shards

[J.V.]

I've been messing around with rifter lately and have reached the conclusion that it can be highly playable in legacy's current meta. Here is the list I've been running (successfully)
// Lands
1 [U] Plateau
7 [OD] Mountain (2)
8 [CHK] Plains (4)
4 [ON] Forgotten Cave
4 [ON] Secluded Steppe

// Creatures
3 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
2 [PR] Disenchant
3 [DK] Blood Moon
4 [ON] Renewed Faith
3 [ON] Slice and Dice
2 [ON] Akroma's Vengeance
2 [US] Rune of Protection: Green
4 [UL] Radiant's Judgment
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [ON] Lightning Rift
3 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [TE] Humility

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [10E] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 2 [PR] Disenchant
SB: 4 [WL] Abeyance

[Rood]

Considering the fact you run so many answers to Goyf as it is, aren't the ROP:Green just overkill? Considering how our meta is filled with Sligh/Goyf Sligh type decks you should probally run Red over Green. Your list just has so many ways to deal with Goyf already. Also Goblins is fairly huge, as well. I feel as though Rifter decks should run 4x Dragons, is there any way you can fit him and the 4th Lightning Rift in?

My suggestions:
-2 ROP:Green
+2 ROP:Red

-1 Akroma's Vengeance
+1 Eternal Dragon

[J.V.]

4 Dragons is overkill, you never really want to see more than 1 dragon. As for the 4th Rifter, also overkill since you don't really need more than 1. As for Rune:Red/Rune:Green I see what your staying but until Goblins makes a full blown comeback right now its like semi-back I'll stick with green since Mongoose is such a pain. Also I could neve see myself cutting any Akroma's Vengeance's its just so good. If anything, I'd up the count.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I agree about Akroma's Vengance, that card is phenomenal, but the cards in this deck that bothers me are Radiant's Judgment and Blood Moon. Now I used to play this deck, but I do not have any Legacy experience with it; however, it just seems like Wing Shards, Slice and Dice #4, Rune of Protection X, Gilded Light, or Phyrexian Furnace/Scrabbling Claws (savage Wombat tech) would be better card choices. I know Judgment kills Goyf, woot, most of this deck kills Goyf, and it cycles. I really think 4x Wing Shards would be far superior to these as it just simply owns Goblins in the face and deals with Nimble Mongoose. I am curious to know how Blood Moon is working out. It seems REALLY slow and just seems by the time you may actually cast it it is worthless. Dragon Stompy drops moon effects turn 1 and 2 thus nullifying fetches and everything else, turn 3 Blood Moon just seems like it gives your opponent to much time to setup. Also, the 2x Disenchant in the deck, I know this is a terrible card, but since you only play 2, do you think Ray of Distortion would be better than Disenchant? Since it has flashback it is infinitely more useful and successfully avoids Counterbalance. The only other option I see is Clear but that only kills enchantments but cycles. Thoughts?

[Metaknight]

I agree about Akroma's Vengance, that card is phenomenal, but the cards in this deck that bothers me are Radiant's Judgment and Blood Moon. Now I used to play this deck, but I do not have any Legacy experience with it; however, it just seems like Wing Shards, Slice and Dice #4, Rune of Protection X, Gilded Light, or Phyrexian Furnace/Scrabbling Claws (savage Wombat tech) would be better card choices. I know Judgment kills Goyf, woot, most of this deck kills Goyf, and it cycles. I really think 4x Wing Shards would be far superior to these as it just simply owns Goblins in the face and deals with Nimble Mongoose. I am curious to know how Blood Moon is working out. It seems REALLY slow and just seems by the time you may actually cast it it is worthless. Dragon Stompy drops moon effects turn 1 and 2 thus nullifying fetches and everything else, turn 3 Blood Moon just seems like it gives your opponent to much time to setup. Also, the 2x Disenchant in the deck, I know this is a terrible card, but since you only play 2, do you think Ray of Distortion would be better than Disenchant? Since it has flashback it is infinitely more useful and successfully avoids Counterbalance. The only other option I see is Clear but that only kills enchantments but cycles. Thoughts?

I've played rifter for a while, and trust me, Judgment, and moon are the right calls. Judgment kills more than just goyf. lets try pretty much all of Dragon stompy's creature base, everything thats not goose in threshold, Exalted in stax, Crusher in aggro loam (as you can see, its a little more versatile then you think). Moon is a bomb no matter when it hits. yes, they my have some time to set up, but once moon hits, their only goal from there on out is to get rid of it (unless there Dragon stompy, which why the hell would you play it against them anyway). Seeing as how most decks in legacy play some form of non-basic land, it's not a narrow slot, I've had opponents scoop to a resolved moon, simply put, most decks can't deal with it main deck. the only problem with your solution for disenchant is that it flashes back for 6, and costs 4 to play, way to slow. If you want to get around countertop go with Abolish. Gets around countertop and daze.

[URABAHN]

I've been messing around with rifter lately and have reached the conclusion that it can be highly playable in legacy's current meta. Here is the list I've been running (successfully)
// Lands
1 [U] Plateau
7 [OD] Mountain (2)
8 [CHK] Plains (4)
4 [ON] Forgotten Cave
4 [ON] Secluded Steppe

// Creatures
3 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
2 [PR] Disenchant
3 [DK] Blood Moon
4 [ON] Renewed Faith
3 [ON] Slice and Dice
2 [ON] Akroma's Vengeance
2 [US] Rune of Protection: Green
4 [UL] Radiant's Judgment
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [ON] Lightning Rift
3 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [TE] Humility

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [10E] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 2 [PR] Disenchant
SB: 4 [WL] Abeyance

How does that list improve on Rifter's weak combo matchup? You have so many dead cards vs combo and very few ways to stop TES, Belcher, and even Ceph Breakfast. Goyf is also a big headache, you have to reliably find StP to answer that guy with no way of generating card advantage. I don't think Rifter is very good at all in this metagame.

[Soto]

Against Goyf (and any other big creature at that) you have Humility, Slice and Dice, Swords to Plowshares, Radiant's Judgement, Akroma's Vengeance, and, if you run it, Rune of Protection. I don't see how a deck like this can lose to aggro or aggro-control often. Combo is another tale...

[The Marco]

Humility comes down turn four at best and that is assuming they don't have any counters for it. Akroma's vengeance is even slower, as is Slice and Dice (withouth Humility), Radiant's Judgement is fine but should not be played as more then a two of. I fell your best answer is STP , of course, and I run 2 copies of Wing Shards as well.

[dlevsApiJ]

My current list, it works very good, played 2 tournaments with it (1 by me and 1 by a friend). He ends 2-2-1, cause he mets Aluren, Salavagers Combo and Enchantress, those "combo-control" mu's are very hard.. I end 3-2, cause I met combo-eles (the combo was a surprise the last game, I hadnt expected it, and that + a lucky Krosan Grip topdeck by him have him the game. The other loss was against a Threshold deck, with unexpected Deeds.. (I hate that card with this deck..). But ok, the list:

R/W CycleControl

Lands [24]
7 Plains
3 Mountain
4 Plateau
1 Ancient Denn*
1 Great Furnace*
4 Secluded Steppe
4 Forgotten Cave
( *Because of E. Tutor, yeah, I've searched my lands many times, when I really needed the 4th mana for Moat/Humility or something. )

Kill [4]
4 Lightning Rift
1 Decree Of Justice (against control decks, like MUC/Landstill etc.)

Cyclers [11]([19])
4 Renewed Faith
4 Slice and Dice
3 Eternal Dragon (can also be used as kill sometimes, works with Moat, and doesnt die by a hardcasted S&D (yeah, I've hardcasted it some times..)

(and also the 8 cycle lands)

"Lock"-cards [6]
2 Blood Moon
2 Humility
2 Moat

Removal [5]
4 Sword to Plowshares
1 Oblivion Ring

Tutors [4]
4 Enlightened Tutor

Other [5]
4 Orims Chant (great card! helps against counter (control), gives you 1 turn against aggro, and is perfect against combo!)
1 Slot, atm I'm testing 1 Peedle main, cause Deed and EE are really hard against you.. Before I tested 1 Hoofprints, but when I really used it, it wasmt really needed.. I always played Rune of Pro: Red.. I really dont know wghat should be the best to play here..


Sideboard:
these are the cards that can be in my SB, it depends on the Meta I expect.
2 Pyroblast
1 REB
2 Tormods Crypt
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Serenity
1 Karmic Justice
1 Rule of Law
1 Aura of Silence
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Sacred Ground (F*CK landdestruction!!)
1 COP: Red
1 COP: Green

No runes, cause when you board them in, you need them! so you gonna cast them, and Runes need white mana, not nice with Moon or something.


Some things to say before you give reactions on the list:
- I never played Radiant's Judgement, and never missed him, never had many problems with Goyf in this list..
- E. Tutor is the bomb!! It let you play 8 times your kill, and 6 times your "lockspells", without let them be in the reach of discard..


- Jip Asveld

[CB4SN13]

Is there a point in running green for LftL? When I played Astral Slide, I remember that card was just amazing. Though LftL doesn't really help the combo MU, and it also weakens the manabase. Is it just a win-more card for your already good MU against aggro-based decks?

[Metaknight]

@dlevsApiJ: why are you only running one Decree on Justice? its one of the main kill conditions of the deck and one isn't enough. also why only 3 dragons (which actually should be in the kill conditions, because playing it shouldn't be a rarity)? I also notice a stunning amount of non-basics. in a deck that its mana base was designed to be as stable as possible in a meta full of goblins and the mana denial that comes along with it, you seem to have made it less so and i would like to know how thats working for you? seeing as how you run blood moon i think you might want to drop the non-basic count and boost the basic count, it will help tremendously.

[dlevsApiJ]

I almost never kill with the Decree in my list, since I play Moats... 1 against control really is enough. (And no, its not the main win condition, thats Lightning Rift.. its more a second win condition.. or we play the deck really different..)
Also I thought I writed at the Dragons that they're also used as kill, since they work very good with Moat, arent killed by an hardcasted S&D (yeah, sometimes thats also needed..).. But yeah, I also was thinking about the 4th, maybe in the open slot?
About cutting non-basics, yeah, why not.. 2 Plateau would be enough (so you can find them with Dragon) so I can play 1 more Plains and Mountains. :)

Jip

[CB4SN13]

I have a question regarding Decree of Justice. How often do you cycle it, and how often do you play for the angel tokens instead? And how many 1/1 soldier tokens do you usually cycle for? I am not really too sure how to play with the card.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I have a question regarding Decree of Justice. How often do you cycle it, and how often do you play for the angel tokens instead? And how many 1/1 soldier tokens do you usually cycle for? I am not really too sure how to play with the card.Typically, it's only cycled, unless you need the flying power. Its used at the end of the opponent's turn, and you make as many tokens as you can.

[Jak]

Typically, it's only cycled, unless you need the flying power. Its used at the end of the opponent's turn, and you make as many tokens as you can.

It is also used a lot as a sweeper with Humility out. Surprise blockers FTW. Humility doesn't have to be out, but I doubt you would have any soldiers left.

[catscandal]

Seeing as this deck has pretty much been dying off as combo becomes more prevalent, I'm wondering why it can't take a slightly different shape to try and make the combo matchup doable? Perhaps playing some Enlightened Tutors to find answers (Humility, Seal of Cleansing, Rule of Law, or another Rift to speed your clock)? Alternatively, has anyone tested Solitary Confinement in the deck? It can still help the aggro matchup in a pinch, and it may not be as ridiculously broken in rifter as it is with Loam, but if you run a few Time Walk effects like Orim's Chant, Abeyance, and Gilded Light, you should be able to hold off combo until turn four or five, then drop Confinement and either stall for a few turns while you try to get in lethal damage or get a lock once you have the mana to recur a Dragon every turn. Abeyance and Chant can stop an Armageddon as well, which is the main way red aggro can beat rifter.

It seems like splashing another colour just makes the mana base far too unstable and vulnerable to hate, and G/W is too slow to stop aggro. But rifter is really good at finding the right utility cards for a given situation, so why shouldn't it be able to find answers to combo? A confinement decklist might look something like this (very tentative):

Mana Base (25 cards, 8 cyclers):
9 Plains
6 Mountain
4 Forgotten Cave
4 Secluded Steppe
2 Plateau

Win condition (6 cards, 6 cyclers):
3 Eternal Dragon
3 Decree Of Justice

Board control (14 cards, 5 cyclers):
3 Lightning Rift
3 Slice And Dice
3 Wrath of God
3 Humility
2 Starstorm

Anti-combo (12 cards, 3 cyclers):
3 Solitary Confinement
3 Gilded Light
2 Abeyance
2 Orim's Chant
2 Disenchant

General tech (3 cards, 3 cyclers):
3 Renewed Faith

Or with E. Tutor:

Mana Base (25 cards, 8 cyclers):
9 Plains
6 Mountain
4 Forgotten Cave
4 Secluded Steppe
2 Plateau

Win condition (6 cards, 6 cyclers):
3 Eternal Dragon
3 Decree Of Justice

Board control (14 cards, 5 cyclers):
3 Lightning Rift
3 Slice And Dice
3 Wrath of God
3 Humility
2 Starstorm

Anti-combo (9 cards, 3 cyclers):
3 Gilded Light
2 Orim's Chant
1 RoP: Red
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Rule of Law
1 Chalice of the Void

General tech (3 cards, 3 cyclers):
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Renewed Faith

I just feel like the primary mechanic of the deck is so effective, that there must be a way to have a chance against combo without splashing a colour. But I'm not that familiar with the Legacy meta, I've only recently gotten into it (I played rifter when it was Type 2 and played slide and angels).

[Shawon]

Alright, necro time. This thread needs its dust brushed off, so I'll be the one to do it. Besides, Rifter's my new Flavor-of-the-Month. EDIT: By the way, I COULD NOT FIND THIS DECK in the four pages of the Established Forums, even though the Search button lead me to the Established Forums, and not even in the Old Threads. Weird.

I never really thought about Rifter. I never faced it on MWS, but I always knew about it, I just assumed it faded out of existence once Goblins, the deck it was designed to beat, got shaken out of its throne for best deck. That is, until I recently got owned by it while I was playing Survival Elves. Oh, the horror. Even when I Natural Ordered Progenitus, he would have Humility, or Orim’s Chant me to stall until he dropped Humility. After my beating, my interested in the deck spawned, but I didn’t attempt to play with the deck because I wouldn’t have known how to start making it, and I didn’t want to start the deck from scratch. But then I spotted a Rifter deck on our beloved DeckCheck:


Rifter (George Gologan Style) by Davide Annunziata

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27487


I liked the overall structure of the deck. The Bloods Moons are an ingenious decision, and I think Elspeth is the card that's bringing this deck back from the grave. Enlightened Tutor is just sweetness and it's the glue that holds the deck together.

However, there were cards I didn't like. The singleton Tormod's Crypt. Really? Not Relic of Progenitus, at least? Just one Oblivion Ring?

So I made some immediate changes and played with the deck on my own. Here's what I've come up with so far:

Rifter 2.0, or <Insert any better name than I could think of>

// Lands
4 [ON] Secluded Steppe
4 [ON] Forgotten Cave
4 [R] Plateau
1 [MR] Ancient Den
3 [10E] Mountain (1)
8 [10E] Plains (1)

// Creatures
3 [SC] Eternal Dragon
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant

// Spells
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
3 [10E] Wrath of God
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [TE] Humility
2 [ON] Slice and Dice
3 [ON] Lightning Rift
2 [9E] Blood Moon
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring

I don't want to bore anyone with obvious insights about the principles of this deck, so I'll refrain from talking about obvious card choices and I'll talk about the more interesting cards.

1 Ajani Vengeant: While Elspeth is undoubtedly the best planeswalker in existence, three seemed like too much, since your extra Elspeths will just sit in your hand until the one on your board either kicks the bucket or wins you the game. But I wanted a powerful card in the 3rd Elspeth's stead, and then entered Ajani Vengeant. Like Lightning Rift, it's a must counter against control, probably even more so, since destroying all of your opponent's lands is no laughing matter for them (but for you, it is :laugh: ). This is perfect with Elspeth, because instead of holding your extra Elspeths, you can cast Ajani along with your Elspeth to clinch the game. Needless to say, it's not bad against aggro or burn either, since the -2 ability is very relevant. Ajani Vengeant is mainly a surprise factor win condition, so it is meant to stay as a singleton.

1 Ancient Den: The inclusion of this card is strategically obvious, but I really liked my recent addition of this card because it HELPED MY LAND DROPS. I came up with Ancient Den after staring at my Enlightened Tutor, wishing it could find me a land instead of an artifact or enchantment, and then Eureka!

That's my two cents. Hope you enjoyed the necro-update! Has anyone else been working on Rifter?

There are so many interesting choices for artifacts/enchantments to run with the aid of Enlightened Tutor. I tried Isochron Scepter for a while. It's pretty good as it can sometimes steal games out of nowhere. However, with 4 Chants in the deck, and the need for vital cards, I had to cut it, but Scepter was definitely fun in the deck. It would probably be more wicked if you ran 2-3 Silence alongside Chant. Might be worth it.

[beastman]

I challenge you to find a metagame where this is playable.
Edit: I will give you cookies if you post results.

[MTG-Fan]

I challenge you to find a metagame where this is playable.
Edit: I will give you cookies if you post results.

Heavy aggro-infested metagames, where everyone plays either Zoo or Goblins?

[Meteorain007]

Lightning Rift is one of my favorite cards, and I currently play a GWr version of slide that splashes red just for rift.

That being said, it's really hard to make lightning rift "good" in legacy these days. It doesn't kill more creatures played in legacy (Goyf, goose, tombstalker).

It appears like this deck is good against aggro decks like goblins, but it probably has a difficult time against pretty much everything else. There are 12 cards dedicated to creature removal, when many decks don't even play that many creatures.

Also, I have a hard time believe that lightning rift is a reliable win condition if there are only 15 cycling cards which you can't efficiently recur (with cards like loam). Eternal dragon doesn't really count because paying 8 to do 2 damage and getting a land each turn is not that great. When I played Rift/Slide or whatever back in T2 onslaught, I ran like 24+ cycling to make rift a reliable win condition.

The plainswalkers are nice, but since you don't play many creatures, I wonder how often they'll just get attacked to death the turn after you play them.

Not sure about Top, w/o fetchlands, it doesn't seem all that useful.

Maybe add another rift? The first one you play is probably going to get countered anyways. Run 2 humility and 1 blood moon? You can tutor for them anyways. Acceleration might be nice in the form of mox diamond and/or ancient tomb.

I'd really suggest more cycling: spark spray is good point removal with humility. Renewed faith gains life, which is nice against burn and aggro before you can stabilize (e.g. turn 4 WoG). If you are worried about combo, play some gilded lights.

I think a 1 of RoP: Red and RoP: Green are good choices. Cycles when you don't need them, and tutor for them when you do. You can even just tutor for them if you need something that cycles.

Also, might I suggest 1 trinisphere? It's great against burn and counters.

I probably gave you enough suggestions to make your deck like 80 cards, but yeah, that's what I got. hope it helps.

[ykpon]

Shawon, i've been testing rifter for a couple of months but still can't get some cards for it so it was mws only.
you must play Moat here. it has awesome sinergy with both Elspeth and Humility and sometimes it just wins games alone. sure, it's nombo with Decree, but Decree can be easily moved to sideboard or even cut since you have new awesome win condition. the list i'm going to run in my meta is alike your one, though i've moved Chants to sb. also, i think you run too few cards with cycling and too much win conditions. just 2 Elspeths plus Rifts were alwas enough for me, Ajani and Decree (ok, i play Moat) looks like win more cards. here's my build:

// Lands
4 [ON] Forgotten Cave
4 [ON] Secluded Steppe
1 [A] Plateau (you don't need four, really. it's just a silver bullet for Dragon. two at max. you can easily be immune to Wastelands and Prices, so why not?)
7 [IA] Snow-Covered Mountain
9 [IA] Snow-Covered Plains (one can become Ancient Den, though i never wished i had it in my deck yet)
1 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair (you hate land destruction, so why not?)

// Creatures
3 [SC] Eternal Dragon
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Spells
4 [ON] Lightning Rift
2 [TE] Humility
1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
3 [ON] Slice and Dice
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
1 [LG] Moat
1 [DK] Blood Moon
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
4 [SC] Gilded Light (Hymn? No! Tendrils? No!)
1 [US] Rune of Protection: Red (turn one tutor for this is usually gg for burn, so why not?)
4 [ON] Renewed Faith (were Chants at first, but i decided i need more cycling)

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [AP] Orim's Thunder
SB: 2 [SH] Sacred Ground
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 1 [IA] Jester's Cap (Krosan Grip, Deed, Mighty Quinn, combos)
SB: 1 [IA] Drought (monoblack in my meta)
SB: 1 [MR] Rule of Law
SB: 2 [UD] Replenish (paired with chant looks like a better ultimative spell against control decks than Decree)

[beastman]

Heavy aggro-infested metagames, where everyone plays either Zoo or Goblins?

Then just play storm based combo.

[ykpon]

Then just play storm based combo.
Then just go to storm based combo thread maybe?:rolleyes:

[beastman]

I asked him why he thinks this deck would be playable. I don't think any more snarky comments are needed.

[bowvamp]

Hmm, how about a meta where goblins and merfolk, and dragon stompy run rampant?
Goblins and Merfolk can kill combo's manabase and stall till they get into full swing and dragon stompy has chalice. In fact, add faerie stompy in there too, just for kicks.

[beastman]

Hadn't even thought of merfolk. That is an incredible match though.
The thing is, with goyf and ponder and countertop being around now, as well as grip, this deck's threshold matchup decreases greatly.

[morgan_coke]

Actually, if you want to make rifter good again, including the storm combo matchup, the best thing to do is to address the decks' real problem. Lack of a quick clock. The two best ways to do that are with Jotun Grunt and Tarmogoyf.

You can either keep your manabase RW and run Grunt with Ethersworn Canonists and Chants in the board or you can run a very minor green splash for Tarmogoyf and Life from the Loam. Green also gives access to Gaddock Teeg for additional help against combo. In RW, Thorn of Amethyst is a good supplement to the anti-combo plan of Canonist.

[beastman]

I think jotun grunt would be good in the board, but I think elspeth makes a decent clock, while also keeping with the theme of the deck

[Aggro_zombies]

Actually, if you want to make rifter good again, including the storm combo matchup, the best thing to do is to address the decks' real problem. Lack of a quick clock. The two best ways to do that are with Jotun Grunt and Tarmogoyf.

You can either keep your manabase RW and run Grunt with Ethersworn Canonists and Chants in the board or you can run a very minor green splash for Tarmogoyf and Life from the Loam. Green also gives access to Gaddock Teeg for additional help against combo. In RW, Thorn of Amethyst is a good supplement to the anti-combo plan of Canonist.
Lack of a quick clock is just one of this deck's problems.

Actually, the bigger problem is being hyper-focused. The deck's main point, when it was made, was as an anti-aggro juggernaut (bitch). However, in the time since this deck lost viability and now, aggro has declined to a relatively small portion of the metagame, whereas blue-based control and aggro-control are much more prevalent. Both of those deck types play few to no creatures and have many control elements that are unanswerable by this deck.

Wrath is bad against Threshold and virtually useless against Dreadstill and Landstill. Humility is decent versus Threshold and Dreadstill but downright awful against Landstill, and getting one to resolve will be a problem as well. Slice and Dice doesn't do anything to any of those three blue decks, and neither does Lightning Rift. Chant is a band-aid that might let you force through a Humility but will probably just end up eating it to a Counter-Top activation/trigger. Blood Moon can be a wrecking ball, but if Dragon Stompy taught us anything, it was to play some basics main - and now very few decks are kicked completely out of the game by a resolved Blood Moon.

Unfortunately, the high number of dead or nearly dead cards in the main means you'd have to be packing some sort of transformational sideboard in order to switch roles. Of the three lists I see here, there's roughly ten slots of fluff in the blue-based deck matchup. That means two-thirds at least of your sideboard would have to be dedicated to cards that don't suck against these decks. Eating up that much space is really bad for your ability to be flexible against decks like Merfolk, which are more vulnerable to your control cards but are still operating in a way much different from Goblins by packing a way to fight back (in the form of disruption).

Basically, time and meta shifts haven't made this deck any less craptastic. It was a meta foil to a deck that is no longer dominant, and it has problems dealing with the ones that are dominant now. You'd be much better off playing Landstill as a control deck, or storm combo as a solution to aggro.

[morgan_coke]

I'd mostly like to agree with everything zombies said, except that I think the deck can still be solid if given a major workover. However, it won't be tier 1.

A more modern meta focused list would look something like this:

Enchantments
4x Lightning Rift

Planeswalkers
3x Elspeth, Knight Errant
2x Ajani Vengeant

Beats
4x Jotun Grunt
4x Ethersworn Canonist

Cyclers
4x Radiant's Judgement
3x Scrap
4x Clear

Instants
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Shining Shoal

Lands
4x Forgotten Cave
4x Secluded Steppe
4x Plateau
6x Plains
5x Mountain
1x Kor Haven
1x Keep of Kher Ridges

Sideboard
3x Duergar Hedge-Mage
4x Thorn of Amethyst
4x Kitchen Finks
4x Gilded Light/Silence/Orim's Chant

That might not be exactly sixty cards, but you get the idea. Canonist and Grunt give you maindeck hate on graveyards and combo, while shoal + spare 'walker is vicious vs. significant amounts of the format. Plus you've got lots of artifact/enchantment hate maindeck too. And Radiant's Judgement kills Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, Mystic Enforcer, Dreadnought, and cycles.

[Elfrago]

If one of the deck main problem is "lack of a clock" and another is "most red cards played now suck" then why not switch red with another color?

[Joon]

I'd play Rifter Landstill-like with Humilities (maybe even Moat(s)). You can now easily win with Elspeth through both of them if needed. Having space for Ajani main isn't bad either. Ajani Vengeant could be interesting but I think he's straight worse than Ajani Goldmane and Elsbitch.

I would, however, cut all creatures besides those the Walkers produce to make all creature-removal of your opponents useless.

Top would be cool but as you run zero shuffling effects it would be not nearly as good as in other control decks.

Then I'd play Wrath again (you know, Merfolk and other Tribal) and maybe the white Command which is a Akroma's Vengeance but might kill not your Humilities.

Then again I would never ever fucking never cut Decree of Justice Oo

[beastman]

If one of the deck main problem is "lack of a clock" and another is "most red cards played now suck" then why not switch red with another color?
There is the whole point of half the deck being red.
It would be a completely different deck if you took red out.

[Rood]

I'd play Rifter Landstill-like with Humilities (maybe even Moat(s)). You can now easily win with Elspeth through both of them if needed. Having space for Ajani main isn't bad either. Ajani Vengeant could be interesting but I think he's straight worse than Ajani Goldmane and Elsbitch.

I would, however, cut all creatures besides those the Walkers produce to make all creature-removal of your opponents useless.

Top would be cool but as you run zero shuffling effects it would be not nearly as good as in other control decks.

Then I'd play Wrath again (you know, Merfolk and other Tribal) and maybe the white Command which is a Akroma's Vengeance but might kill not your Humilities.

Then again I would never ever fucking never cut Decree of Justice Oo

Moat seems like it has 0 drawbacks in this deck if you run Dragon, Elspeth and DoJ. Quick list I drew up.

// Lands
2 [U] Plateau
6 [CST] Mountain (1)
9 [US] Plains (4)
4 [DDC] Secluded Steppe
4 [ON] Forgotten Cave

// Creatures
2 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
3 [ON] Renewed Faith
3 [LG] Moat
2 [US] Clear
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
4 [UL] Radiant's Judgment
2 [US] Scrap
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [ON] Lightning Rift
3 [FNM] Slice and Dice

I really like the idea of running possible even a playset of Moats here, seems very solid especially decks like Zoo.

[ykpon]

Slice and Dice without Humility?:eek:

[Shawon]

I challenge you to find a metagame where this is playable. Edit: I will give you cookies if you post results.
.
.
.
Hadn't even thought of merfolk. That is an incredible match though.
The thing is, with goyf and ponder and countertop being around now, as well as grip, this deck's threshold matchup decreases greatly.

Like others before me said, Rifter would probably perform favorably in an aggro-focused meta, however, that doesn't necessarily imply that it would perform poorly against control decks.

While CounterTop decks present a challenge to Rifter decks, I think, like many other decks that are threatened by CounterTop, the deck has outs to said strategy through its silver bullet removal (O-Ring, REB in the sb) and threats of their own (Blood Moon, Boil in the sb, Elspeth).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I took a gander at some of the lists posted are mine. While Lightning Rift is an integral part of the deck, I think running cards such as Scrap, Clear, and Radiant's Judgment are unnecessary as their only real selling point for being in the deck is to support the cycling theme. Perhaps the deck doesn't run enough cyclers, but I can't imagine replacing Wrath of Gods or Humilities with these cycling cards.

Oh, Moat is definitely very powerful, but I keep it in the sb. Yeah, I didn't post my sideboard because when I made it, I didn't have any particular meta in mind, I made a very generic sideboard.

But, whatever, I'll post it for kicks. Just observe with a grain of salt, though:

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Rune of Protection: Red (Burn, red aggro, Goblins)
SB: 2 [4E] Red Elemental Blast (Merfolk, Blue decks, extra Storm hate)
SB: 2 [8E] Boil (ditto)
SB: 1 [10E] Aura of Silence (Enchantress, MUC, extra Storm hate)
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus (Loam, Ichorid, Threshold)
SB: 1 [SHM] Runed Halo (Combo, Burn, Control)
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt (Loam, Ichorid)
SB: 1 [9E] Sacred Ground (AggroLoam, EvaGreen/Team America, Pox)
SB: 2 [DS] Pulse of the Fields (Burn, aggro in general)
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist (Combo)
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle (versatile answer)
SB: 1 [LG] Moat (aggro, including Merfolk)

[Arrowni]

A year later I wonder why it doesn't have blood moons.

[Kilz88]

So I know this deck is old as dirt but seriously, inthe current meta it might be insane. I talking the old school lists but just add like, elspeth and maybe either ajani. Planeswalkers seem really good in this deck due to its lack of win. You can dedicate the lightning rift triggers to just creatures and get there with planeswalkers. Can we come up with a list? I will work on one and post it soon but gimme some ideas. :)

Added List:

// Lands
4 [DDC] Secluded Steppe
4 [EVG] Forgotten Cave
1 [NE] Kor Haven
4 [R] Plateau
5 [B] Mountain (1)
7 [5E] Plains (1)

// Creatures
3 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
1 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
1 [HOP] Oblivion Ring
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [LG] Moat
1 [CH] Blood Moon
1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
3 [6E] Wrath of God
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
2 [FNM] Slice and Dice
3 [FNM] Lightning Rift
1 [TE] Humility
3 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
3 [SC] Gilded Light
3 [ON] Renewed Faith
3 [SC] Decree of Justice

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 [10E] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 1 [8E] Sacred Ground
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt

[Gocho]

As you wish: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27487

I like Rifter a lot, and Planeswalkers can help to make it competitive.
But Rifter always was a metagame deck, losing to Combo and beating Aggro.
I don't know how can we improve this, perhaps a set of Gilded Light, more Canonist or a set of Enlightened tutor.

[Master Shake]

This is really a deck where you take a hard look at Firespout. Slice and Dice is likely far to slow and activating Rift isn't a very solid reason for inclusion.

You play at least one Day of Judgment over a Wrath of God simply because the card's name isn't Wrath of God.

I seem to remember the deck playing Abeyance and Chant somewhere to push through bombs and to be amazing against combo game one, this doesn't seem like something that should change.

Playing 2 Humility in the main is a must - that card needs to resolve. There may also be considerable need for Story Circle, Rune or Circle of Protection Green/Red.

An cannonist in the main may be pretty good as well - it will be dead sometimes but... this is Rifter!

[Shawon]

If you want to make Rifter metagame-relevant, you have to be able to realistically answer an on-battlefield Iona or preventing it from ETB. Iona on White pretty much nails this deck in the ass as you are denied using your effective removal such as WoG and Humility. Dead//Gone comes to mind as a silver bullet against Iona calling white.

[JohnnyCage]

Hi all how's it going. Just dusted rifter off for a tourney last Thursday and had a blast. Better yet I went undefeated out of like 40 people. My match-UPS were pro-thresh pro-thresh goblins tempo thresh and then uwb fish and landstill I took first. Without further wait here is the list.
4 steppe
4 cave
3 arid mesa
1 ancient den
7 plains
6 mountains

3 e dragon
2 ajani ven
3 lightning rift
2 decree
3 humility
4 stp
2 fire spout
2 slice and dice
2 akromas ven
4 renewed faith
2 e tutor
3 abeyance
1 blood moon
1 ruined halo
1 o ring
1 rune pro red
Sb is
1 e tutor
1 crypt
2 boil
2 ruination
1 sacred ground
1 ruined halo
3 dead//gone
1 ethersworn
1 relic
1 aura of silence
1 serenity

[JohnnyCage]

Someone should actually pay attention to this deck. The way the legacy meta is shifting its getting stronger