Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy [Archive]

ChemicalBurns

06-12-2017, 02:43 AM

“Bomberman” refers to Auriok Salvagers, an archetype more seen in Vintage, thanks to Auriok Salvagers powerful infinite mana combo with Black Lotus. Salvagers can also generate infinite mana in Legacy via Lion’s Eye Diamond, but this has remained a gutsy proposition due to LED requiring the discarding of ones hand, causing poor synergy with Force of Will and other controlling spells typically found in the shell, creating a very “all-in” combo turn. You can find more traditional combo-control versions of Bomberman on The Source here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27949-Deck-Imperial-Bomberman). These lists also typically leaned on Sensei’s Divining Top as a filtration option that worked when Hellbent, but with Top gone, Bomberman must re-calibrate itself.

The KMC tournaments in Japan have always been a hotbed of innovation, and the 75th event found Tanaka Mikoto with a new take on the Bomberman combo:

Lands: (18)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Plains
2 Tundra

Creatures: (14)
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Monastery Mentor
2 Trinket Mage
4 Walking Ballista

Non-Creature Spells: (28)
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lodestone Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
4 Urza's Bauble

Sideboard: (15)
2 Containment Priest
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Disenchant
1 Echoing Truth
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Serenity
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ratchet Bomb

From here, a few other variants have been seen, and Caleb Durwald took a modified version of the list to a stunning 3-0 win over Bob Huang in the Legacy Premier League Quarterfinals (beating Sneak & Show, Food Chain and Grixis Delver), that you can watch here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sOdV4ogxqg).

1.0 Main Deck

1.1 The Combo

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/5dn/4.jpg http://magiccards.info/scans/en/mr/272.jpg

The infinite mana combo is the lynchpin of the deck, allowing it to finish off a variety of decks in a hurry. It is notably unaffected by typical graveyard hate like Deathrite Shaman and can be stacked multiple times in a turn to play around cards like Surgical Extraction. Lion’s Eye Diamond is a bit of a brick when not comboing out, though some of the other creatures in the deck give it a little more utility than initially expected.

Auriok Salvagers on the other hand, need not necessarily be used to combo to become a very potent threat. Its 2/4 body already dominates over many of the small creatures in Legacy and ground creatures like Pyromancer or Thalia will have a tough time with Salvagers on the table. Its ability is also highly potent in accruing some kind of advantage, in combination with a variety of the cards within the deck. It can either spew out creatures, create recursive removal or just give the deck raw card advantage.

1.2 Win Conditions

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/frf/20.jpg http://magiccards.info/scans/en/aer/181.jpg

Unlike previous iterations of Bomberman where kill conditions were very lacklustre (eg. Pyrite Spellbomb) and needed a fair bit of setup, the win conditions of Monastery Mentor and Walking Ballista are very serviceable creatures in their own right.

Monastery Mentor, in combination with the infinite combo, makes a board of infinite Monks that should kill the opponent on the following turn (or, if Mentor isn’t summoning sick, then and there). The nice part is that Mentor can be on board before comboing out and simply present a very difficult to answer threat. In combination with the variety of zero-mana artifacts the deck plays, the deck can have explosives draws, even on turn one, of Monastery Mentor into many, many Monks.

Walking Ballista functions similarly. The Ballista can be played early, beatdown, even be used to kill some creatures, and once the infinite mana combo is assembled, an on-board Ballista can be pumped infinitely and then burn the opponent out or Ballista can be resurrected from the graveyard to assemble the kill. Ballista has huge amounts of utility and, in combination with Mentor, gives the deck a very solid fair angle of attack.

1.3 Lock Pieces

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/mi/150.jpg

Although previous iterations of Bomberman utilised counterspells in order to stop the opponent, current lists focus on Chalice of the Void to do so. This synergises effectively with Lion’s Eye Diamond, which encourages playing out ones hand as quickly as possible. Chalice blocks a variety of annoying removal, allowing Mentor in particular to go unchecked. It also stops hate cards post-board that are typically played. And, like many of the other artifacts, it can be revived by Salvagers to annoy the opponent once more. Its well-known in Legacy how potent cutting off many of the opponent’s spells in their deck is.

1.4 Cantrips

Urza's Bauble
Mishra's Bauble
Lodestone Bauble

Both Urza’s Bauble and Mishra’s Bauble are zero-mana “slow trips” that draw on the next upkeep. Although innocuous-looking, these importantly trigger Monastery Mentor, making Monks, but also act as an effective win condition with Auriok Salvagers. Auriok Salvagers can generate infinite mana and loop these trinkets infinite times, drawing the Bomberman player their entire library (on the opponent’s upkeep) which should easily lead to a combo kill on the following turn.

Lodestone Bauble is another zero-mana slow trip, but to cycle needs one mana to be paid. The importance is, however, that Lodestone Bauble can target any player to draw a card. When looped, it can lead to the opponent drawing their entire library and then decking out on the next upkeep. It’s probably the worst of the Baubles, but offers powerful utility as an additional win condition that can sit in the graveyard after being used for its somewhat overpriced cycle effect.

Gitaxian Probe

A contentious inclusion due to its poor synergy with Chalice. But with Mentor it is certainly excellent to create Monks, and being able to see if the coast is clear to combo off is also a nice luxury.

1.5 Mana

Lotus Petal
Mox Opal

More zero mana artifacts that trigger Mentor, notably, but can also allow the deck to empty its hand incredibly quickly and assemble the combo before the opponent can even set up. Lotus Petal is a very traditional acceleration piece (and can be rebought with Salvagers if needed, particularly nice when looping Petals for Mentor, which can be done for a single White mana), but Mox Opal requires a bit more finesse. With Chalice and the trinkets it can be often turned on easily, but since the trinkets require sacrifice, Metalcraft isn’t always so assured turn after turn.

Ancient Tomb
City of Traitors

Sol lands have been the backbone of Chalice of the Void decks, and this is no different. It’s nice that these effectively pay the mana costs of Mentor, Salvagers and Ballista as well.

Cavern of Souls

Apart from Ballista, the creatures in the deck are all Humans, which can lead to some excellent uncounterable lines with Mentor or Auriok Salvagers. Either of these creatures sticking create inevitability, as both abilities don’t need spells to resolve to get value from them – Mentor will still create Monks off trinkets even countered, and Salvagers can simply resurrect countered combo pieces.

Ancient Den

Although looking like a useless Wasteland-able White source, Ancient Den critically increases chances of Metalcraft for Mox Opal for very little cost and can lead to some slick curve outs. It adds a subtle consistency to the Metalcraft cards and I highly recommend using it if running four Mox Opals.

Spire of Industry

The best Gold land available to us, usable quite easily with all the trinkets on the battlefield. It also has advantages over Mana Confluence/City of Brass in that it can be used for pain-less colourless mana otherwise. With Spire included the deck can reach into a tri-colour mana base, but exposes the deck further to Wasteland and Blood Moon effects.

Karakas
Inventors' Fair

Utility lands can be very effective. Inventors' Fair is excellent at finding one of the last pieces of the combo (LED or Ballista) while Karakas has general utility against many decks in the format like Death & Taxes and Sneak & Show.

2.0 Sideboard

2.1 Hatebears

Containment Priest
Ethersworn Canonist
Phyrexian Revoker

Hate bears are one of White’s most potent tools against the combo decks of the format. Priest very easily hits the Sneak & Show’s and Reanimators of the world, while Canonist can not only stop spell-chain combo, but also defend ours. Since Canonist only stops non-artifact spells, the Bomberman combo, since it only uses artifacts, can still work! Revoker is nice as a more blanket hatebear that also interacts with Metalcraft positively.

Sanctum Prelate

Prelate puts considerable strain on the mana (1WW is difficult to achieve) but importantly makes the Storm matchup a little easier. Since Chalice and Canonist are artifacts, a timely Hurkyl's Recall can mean ruins. Prelate has a similar effect to Chalice, but needs a Storm player to go through further hoops. It's also great against other combo decks.

Lodestone Golem

An expensive and speculative hate piece, but once again allows the combo to occur unhindered. Beatdowns quickly too, but do watch out making Mentor and Salvagers more expensive.

Thought-Knot Seer

Similar to Lodestone Golem in that it is a relatively expensive threat that provides a big body and disruption. Unlike Lodestone, it does not tax our non-artifact spells but its disruption is once off. It is also a feasible card in the main deck if one is looking for main deckable disruption on a body. It doesn't synergise with Cavern effectively, however.

Hope of Ghirapur

An even-more speculative sideboard inclusion because of its conflict with Chalice, but Hope, in conjunction with a Salvagers, can completely lock out an opponent, especially if they are a combo deck. Hope is neat, but I would be wary of the danger of cool things (that conflict with one of our main plans of Chalicing out the opponent).

2.2 Graveyard Hate

Tormod's Crypt
Leyline of the Void
Faerie Macabre

Crypt is excellent as additional graveyard hate of choice, because it can be looped with Auriok Salvagers if graveyards need to be wiped multiple times (eg. vs. Dredge), and can be found with some of the splashable tutors. However, Leyline of the Void stops fast combo like BR Reanimator a bit more effectively, but of course is a pretty dead draw when not in ones opening hand. Faerie is also tutorable in some versions, and can be essentially uncounterable, relevant against Chancellor of the Annex primarily. Note that cards like Rest in Peace or Relic of Progenitus do not synergise with the deck’s game plan.

2.3 Removal

Swords to Plowshares
Spatial Contortion
Warping Wail
Blessed Alliance

Swords to Plowshares is one of the most efficient removal spells in Magic and since we have White mana readily available, this is excellent in matchups where we cut Chalices, such as BUG matchups and against Death & Taxes. Spatial Contortion and Warping Wail (with Wail having a little more utility) can function similarly off the abundance of colourless sources, but doesn’t have anti-synergy with Chalice of the Void in matchups like Delver, where you want both Chalice and removal. Blessed Alliance is also an option for removal that gets around Chalice but is a little more conditional (but can lead to blowouts against Marit Lage, for example).

Disenchant
Engineered Explosives
Seal of Cleansing
Devout Witness
Forsake the Worldly
Cast Out

These are nice general answers to the hate that can come up against Bomberman, such as Pithing Needle and others. Of course, White has many variants on Disenchant that can be utilised, even on a stick - War Priest of Thune comes close, while Devout Witness is a viable inclusion for repetitive artifact and enchantment destruction, especially against problematic Stompy decks. Engineered Explosives is a potent tool, especially since it can be looped with Auriok Salvagers to continually wipe the board. Sunburst = 2 is very feasible for the deck, with Opals or Petals making Sunburst = 3 reasonable at times as well. EE can be a very reasonable main deck card as well.

Ensnaring Bridge

Pseudo-removal, in that creatures can no longer attack. Excellent due to this deck's ability to empty its hand very quickly, it can buy significant amounts of time and helps out against Sneak & Show. Note that the Mentor kill is less feasible with Ensnaring Bridge in play.

2.4 Transformational

Stoneforge Mystic
Umezawa’s Jitte
Batterskull

Boarding into some strange Mentor Stoneforge Stompy hybrid is also a possibility, leaning on the power of equipment and the plethora of bodies available to gear up. This can really catch people with their pants down, but takes up a critical amount of sideboard slots.

3.0 Splashes

3.1 Blue

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/5dn/39.jpg

Trinket Mage has been a long friend of Bomberman thanks to its ability to find two parts of the combo – Lion’s Eye Diamond or Walking Ballista. The only piece that cannot be found is the Salvagers themselves. Trinket Mage also makes silver bullets in the main deck or sideboard a little more impressive (eg. Pithing Needle, Tormod’s Crypt) and also can find things such as Chalice.

Meddling Mage

Another powerful hatebear option that also can effectively defend the combo kill. It's great with Gitaxian Probe/Baubles as well, shutting off any spells that are known information.

Venser, Shaper Savant

A flexible “removal” spell that can be cast off Cavern of Souls, and is particularly great against Sneak & Show. A bit mana-intensive and can be found in the sideboard typically. Excellent with Karakas for the Karakas lock.

3.2 Red

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/p3k/113.jpg

Unlike Mage, which can get Lion’s Eye Diamond, Imperial Recruiter can instead get Ballista, Mentor or Salvagers, which makes him much more impressive at backing up the “fair” grind plan of the deck. He also makes a variety of silver bullet hate bears in the sideboard reasonable to find.

Manic Vandal

A tutorable Shatter option, which is helpful against cards like Pithing Needle or opposing Chalices set to zero.

Magus of the Moon

Post-board the deck can masquerade as a Stompy deck, bringing Magus of the Moon against greedy multi-coloured decks. Magus can be powered out on turn one quite easily with backbreaking results. Just be careful about locking oneself out of White mana to cast the rest of the deck’s spells.

Daretti, Scrap Savant / Nahiri, the Harbinger

Very interesting grindy cards that synergise effectively with the gameplan of the deck. Daretti can do a Goblin Welder impression quite well (while not running into our Chalice) which is great for turning wasted mana rocks into cards thanks to the trinkets. His ultimate also leads to mountains of cards being drawn with the trinkets in the deck which can be revived at eot to loop again. Nahiri in particular deals with weird problem permanents, and her ultimate finds any piece of the combo.

3.3 Black

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/rav/81.jpg

Dark Confidant is incredible in the Bomberman shell due to the deck having an abundance of zero cost spells and hence taking damage from his ability typically being of little consequence. Hence, Bob living (often helped by Chalice) means that the deck can continue to churn through cantrips to either fuel explosive Mentor draws or dig for the combo.

Kitesail Freebooter

One of the newer additions to the deck, Kitesail Freebooter is an excellent piece of disruption in both the main deck or the sideboard, ripping away removal or countermagic that can get in the way of the combo and letting one see if the coast is clear. Against combo, Freebooter can slow down the opposing deck and give the Bomberman player a bit more time to set up the combo or simply beatdown with a motley crew. It's also uncounterable off Cavern, of course.

Infernal Tutor

Everyone knows the interaction with Infernal Tutor and LED, and this can lead to combo turns which are easily game-ending (Salvagers in play, IT > crack LED > get Ballista > win). However, since this deck is a Stompy deck at heart, it can empty its hand very quickly, especially with the trinkets which, thanks to their delayed trigger, leads to empty-handed moments. Infernal Tutor works well in these situations too as just actual Demonic Tutor for whatever missing piece! Note that the mana base often needs tweaks to function with Infernal Tutor, since it is a non-Human spell.

Collective Brutality

Probably the best flexible discard/removal spell printed for any Black-based Stompy deck in recent times, as it very effectively gets around Chalice, has relevant modes all round and can be escalated by pitching useless junk that Stompy decks often end up having in hand (note that the escalate is great to throw Ballistas, LEDs or other win cons that Salvagers can eventually revive for the kill). Like Infernal Tutor, it needs mana base modifications to accommodate, however, being a non-Human coloured spell.

Magus of the Will

An uncounterable Human in many situations, and with Chalice to defend him, Magus of the Will can get an untap and go crazy generating absurd amounts of mana and cards with the trinkets that are likely to be lying in the deck’s graveyard. The trinkets can also simply be used on the opponent’s turn to avoid them being exiled too!

Orzhov Pontiff

A deck like this is certainly in the market for an effective sweeper, and Orzhov Pontiff is often just that – uncounterable off Cavern too!

4.0 Matchups

Coming soon!

5.0 Decklists

5.1 White-Blue

Tanaka Mikoto’s original list:

http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD26353S/

Caleb Durward’s LPL list:

https://i2.wp.com/itsjulian.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/CalebMadnessQuarters.png?resize=1024%2C576

5.2 White-Black

Katayose Takahito's White-Black list feat. Magus of the Will:

http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD26759S/

5.3 White-Red

Katayose Takahito's Mentorless Bomberman:

http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD42020S/

ChemicalBurns156’s White-Red Bomberman (06/03/18):

Creatures: (15)
3 Auriok Salvagers
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Walking Ballista
3 Imperial Recruiter
1 Magus of the Moon

Non-Creature Spells: (26)
3 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Urza’s Bauble
4 Mishra’s Bauble
1 Lodestone Bauble
4 Mox Opal
4 Lotus Petal
2 Engineered Explosives

Lands: (19)
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
2 Plateau
2 Ancient Den
1 Inventors’ Fair

Sideboard: (15)
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Sanctum Prelate
2 Containment Priest
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Devout Witness
1 Manic Vandal
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Cast Out
1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 Phyrexian Revoker

6.0 Videos

6.1 White-Blue

Vs. Miracles (pre-ban)

Game 1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfVHdFeEESk
Game 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4F_A1KkPM1M
Game 3:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KH8zLodVniE

Vs. Sneak & Show, Food Chain and Grixis Delver:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sOdV4ogxqg

6.1 White-Black

Caleb Durwald's League:

https://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-calebd-legacy-bomberman/

Anuraag Das's Legacy Challenge:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/157798525

7.0 Further Reading

Tanaka's Mikito's blog post detailing the deck (Japanese):

http://mtgkmc.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-500.html

AngelBaka's detailed reddit post outlining White-Black card choices:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/7rmrto/bombermanmentor_stompy_building_an_effective/

Wanderlust

06-12-2017, 03:58 AM

ChemicalBurns

06-12-2017, 04:50 AM

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=214042&type=card

I've been a fan of Shimmer Myr, as it allows us to win in our opponent's upkeep with Bomberman infinite mana combo + a bauble (we can crack LED in response to all of the bauble triggers in their upkeep to make the mana to cast Shimmer Myr, loop LEDs for infinite mana on their turn, and kill them with Ballista then and there.) Since Legacy is often decided by a single turn, I think it's worth the slot. Granted, it's mediocre outside the combo, but at least its 2/2 flash body opens up interesting surprise blocking lines, beats down, and can turn Chalice of the Void into a surprise counterspell.

Looks interesting and definitely is a sweet inclusion. I wonder if it's necessary - I get that vs. fast combo drawing your deck in their upkeep isn't the greatest (and maybe that's where it's sideboardable, so you can go off on a low resource base) but I guess that's why I'm playing Lodestone Bauble in my lists.

As I mentioned in the other thread, I'm not convinced Monastery Mentor is actually better than either Trinket Mage or Imperial Recruiter here. I'm currently playing a build that still runs 4 of each of the tutors and 0 Mentors and have been very happy (24 match wins to 7 losses in sanctioned paper events so far). To elaborate further on some problems I see with Mentor: it turns on our opponent's -1/-1 effects (Golgari Charm, Dread of Night, Engineered Plague, etc.) and can be a lackluster draw later in the game once we've already deployed all of our Baubles/Opals etc. and are running out of gas. This is a deck that goes hellbent sometimes. Mentor doesn't thrive in that environment. Trinket Mage and Imperial Recruiter don't care if we are hellbent and only get more powerful as the game goes longer - they are always gas on their own, whereas the power level of Mentor can be swingy, especially in a deck full of slow cantrips that make it hard sometimes to piece together a lethal Mentor turn.

That seems really odd to me, because honestly this deck feels more like a Mentor Stompy deck at times rather than Bomberman. Turn one or two Mentor into cantrips has led to incredibly easy wins in my current experience, especially against most of the fair decks (Delver, etc.). And I don't think running out of gas is an issue - Auriok Salvagers, even when not comboing, provides continuous gas if we can find him. Salvagers + Mentor without any combo, just recurring Petals/Baubles, leads to a really powerful grind plan.

And honestly, if the opponent is boarding in Dread of Night etc, I wouldn't stress about that too much. That may stop the Mentor plan, but the deck still has a huge amount of angles to be able to beat the opponent and make those cards not that impressive. We can still make a giant Mentor through a Dread when comboing anyway.

Also, what is your mana base looking like to support UWR? I honestly am not a fan of my dual-coloured mana base so far, it can feel very shakey at times.

Also, it seems strange to me to not play any Engineered Explosives main, especially when running Trinket Mage. It's pretty good under the Bomberman combo. And in addition to its everyday applications like killing Insectile Aberrations, Eidolons of the Great Revel, etc., EE is an answer to an opponent casting Chalice on 0 (EE can be cast with X>0 with colorless mana sources and still have sunburst 0).

I'm not running Trinket Mage main currently, but yeah I do agree with you, it's a really powerful, flexible option to have in the main, especially since we can recur it.
.

Also, Meddling Mage is really well supported in this deck by the information provided by Baubles. It's been an all-star for me so far. I'm currently running 1 in the main as a Recruiter target and the rest in the board, but could imagine moving more to the main. (Note that I'm running a mana base with fewer City of Traitors and more colored sources that then lists in the opening post.)

Meddling Mage sounds sweet in the blue splash versions, I'll add it to the OP. It definitely adds credit to the Probe/Bauble's information usage. I only fear its somewhat awkward casting cost, but I'm sure the mana base can be accommodated for it.

Finally, I'm curious: why aren't there artifact lands in any of the lists in the opening post?

Metalcraft isn't a huge issue, I feel, and our mono-coloured sources being Wasteland prone is kind of frustrating. It's also not great when you have a SB Magus of the Moon plan. But I don't think it's wrong at all to take the mana base that way.

bonkotsu

06-12-2017, 08:24 AM

ChemicalBurns

06-12-2017, 10:08 AM

I have been speaking with Elton a bunch about this deck lately. Have mainly been on the blue splash with trinket mage main, echoing truth and venser side. Spoke with him how I am not a fan of ethersworn side, but I do think that Lodestone Golem could have a home in the side somewhere to hinder combo and provide an even better clock too. Also not a fan of leyline, lately in general I am not a fan. Leyline is neat if its in your opener, but a dead draw, and most decks expect it or surgical to take apart your yard so they bring in bounce spells or kill spells for it. I much prefer Faerie Macabre. The fast reanimator decks cannot deal with it, belcher cant deal with it, and it can buy you some time vs lands and other decks trying to ramp up with loam.

Notable tournaments with the deck from me:
2nd place EW satellite event
4th place EE silver event

I can write up tournament reports and my matches, sideboard choices, and all of that later if there is interest. I spoke with Elton about wanting to try black, I had picked up magus of the will and did want to test it, but I think something we both talked about was replacing a bauble with infernal tutors to just always have value. Also regarding sideboard I really like Ensnaring Bridge as a two of. Deals with the bigger decks and some of the faster unfair decks.

Also, Thank you for writing a primer! I saw this deck randomly online and loved it, I still catch people off guard with some plays like:
Me "I would like to shortcut and represent infinite mana"
Opponent "sure"
Me "I will crack urza's bauble and look at a random card in your hand 40 times and draw 40 on your upkeep"
Opponent "Wait...what"

I've been preaching like crazy to L10 about this a bunch too. Really keen to take to take it for a real spin this week after jamming it a bit online.

Would love to hear how your tournaments have gone and how you feel about a lot of the matchups/sideboard options. The part of the deck that has impressed me the most has been the power of the fair plan, and hence why I've looked to Imperial Recruiter to more easily access the grind engine that Salvagers is. Having a powerful hatebear sideboard plan also feels really excellent, especially Magus who has bailed me out a bunch, and this rules out Lodestone as anti-combo creature of choice, at least for me.

I like the idea of Faerie a lot, and maybe looping Crypt is just too cute. Speed indeed is of the essence against the recent Reanimator lists.

Ensnaring Bridge also sounds pretty neat, but I'm very much about Mentor beatdown which it doesn't really synergise with. I do like us ignoring Decay on it thanks to Salvagers simply resurrecting it though.

itrytostorm

06-12-2017, 12:30 PM

Ensnaring Bridge also sounds pretty neat, but I'm very much about Mentor beatdown which it doesn't really synergise with. I do like us ignoring Decay on it thanks to Salvagers simply resurrecting it though.

Are you implying we can get back Ensnaring Bridge with Salvager?:eyebrow:

bonkotsu

06-12-2017, 03:54 PM

Okay so first tournament report was also my first time piloting this deck
List:
http://eemagic.com/findDeck.php?player=1090024258&event=17-04-9258469

Only difference was sideboard -3 faerie -1 echoing truth +4 leyline.

Food Chain 1-2
Game 1: Mentor Pain train. I turn 1 chalice, turn 2 mentor, vomit my cheerios keeping one back for next turn pump, draw some cards on upkeep, and kill him next turn.
Game 2: This one was rough, I respect the potential surgical and I am familiar enough with the deck to know what to board in, what messed me up was missing a bauble trigger. STUPID. I didn't put a dice on my deck or anything to remember, and missed the 1 card to win. I didn't respect a mindbreak early on and lost one LED, the extra card was sadly LED.
Game 3: I folded to a bunch of hate. Chalice got countered, LED got hit by surgical (I didn't leave 1 more mana up to double recur), and Needle hit Salvagers. A sad start and my fault on the loss.

Grixis(4c) Delver 2-0
Chalice decks always feel the same, like I am going to crush these decks playing 1 cmc cards
Game 1: Chalice gets countered, next turn uncounterable mentor, make a bunch of monks, come in next turn for some damage.
Opponent is confused and more worried about mentor, fantastic.
Game 2: Turn 1 mentor (risky) gets countered, have probe in hand and the combo to lodestone bauble them out, probe for safety, have the clear, go for the upkeep kill.

ANT 2-0
Have I talked about how I always play chalice in Legacy? Card is great.
Game 1: Keep a slower hand but has the turn 1 chalice. Chalice on 1, setup some early damage with mentor and ballista, eventually find the piece I need to combo off.
Game 2: Unfortunately I know he is on ANT, I bring in Leyline and echoing truth(in case of gobs). Start with leyline, chalice comes a little later, Eventually mentor beat down plan was all I needed.

BUG Delver 2-0
So there was this artifact printed in Mirrodin, seemed okay at the time, then came the SOL lands which let you play it turn 1 for value, its name.... Chalice of the Void.
Game 1: Hand is tomb, cavern, chalice, salvagers, some baubles. Snap keep. Shoot the J with a chalice which gets hit by FoW. Next baubles reveal LED on my upkeep with a petal. Go for the combo, drew 20 on his upkeep with urza's bauble, kill you next turn.
Game 2: I bring in EE and Ratchet bomb just in case, lead with a basic plains, pass. Next turn cavern on human, petal, mentor, vomit cheerios, kill you two turns later with monk madness

Reanimator 2-0
I will stop preaching about Chalice, but come on... its great.....
Game 1: I keep a really strange hand knowing what he is on, I expect end step entomb to play around chalice, and them exhume and I lose. He starts with delta, pass. Okay I am right so far. I draw a probe, neat. Probe you, see what you got. Yup, he has it all, cant give him another turn, but no FoW! I start with tomb, petal, mox, LED, play salvagers, crack LED discarding my ballista, go off turn 1. This is super rare but I lost my mind being able to do it.
Game 2: I feel like I have enough hate as long as I dont get hit by turn 1 somehow. On a mull to 5, hand is cavern, petal, priest, mentor, bauble. Well on the draw I cant ask for more. Cavern on human, petal, bauble, pass. End step he entombs G Banger. On his turn he reanimates targeting Griseldaddy. In response crack petal, cast uncounterable priest, he loses life and the demon supreme gets exiled. Priest beatdown was enough after that.

Cut to top 4

Semi final rematch, Food Chain 2-1
Game 1: I know the only thing to fear in the main are forces and thats it, just go ham and combo off as soon as I can.
Game 2: I keep a slower hand and get punished by him having what he needs to combo off.
Game 2: Chalice for 1 resolving tells me he isnt doing anything for 3 turns and has no force, but I fear mindbreak. I go on slow beats with ballista and mentor, he plays some birds eventually and is able to keep me at bay, eventually I try to go off with Double LED and get there with massive mentor and tokens.

Finals Tin Fins 1-2
Game 1: Mentor beats and chalice are too much for the deck to recover
Game 2: I open with leyline, throw down a chalice, he passes for a turn or two giving me time to start some pressure, he casts serenity, pops my stuff, goes off on his turn
Game 3: This one got me, aint even mad. On the play I keep turn 1 chalice on 1 with some baubles. Sure. Chalice for 1, play some cheerios pass. His turn, fetch badlands, float black, cast Crash target chalice sacrificing badlands, entomb, shallow grave, go off. GG

bonkotsu

06-12-2017, 09:19 PM

EW Satelite event: 4th place

Round 1 Oops 2-0
Game 1: Opponent leads with Chancellor trigger, use a bauble to get rid of the trigger, probe to see what he is working with, see he only has 0 drops. Say screw it, chalice on zero. He scoops.
Game 2: He didnt sideboard anything in, so no Belcher game 2, bring in Faerie macabre and priest. Play some baubles, chalice on 0, pass. Opponent passes a few turns, as do I waiting on a threat. He attempts to go off, I macabre with the DR target.

Round 2 Food Chain 2-1
Game 1: I get the combo pretty fast, I know game 1 all they have is FoW
Game 2: Lose this one due to bird beats and decent control. I couldnt manage to deal with him just having a bunch of birds turn 3.
Game 3: My combo gets disrupted with a mindbreak, but I have a ton of mana in sol lands, a mentor, a salvagers, and a ballista. I end up winning with another top deck ballista, attack for damage here and there, and both ballistas fire off in his face.

Round 3 Elves 2-0
Game 1: He has a slow start, but a potential turn 3 NO into big idiot, I chalice then play a ballista on 2, killing his arbor and elf leaving him with only a cradle. Combo off in a turn.
Game 2: Unfortunate, opponent takes a loss due to deck registration error

Round 4 Burn 1-2
Game 1: Eidelon is a pain. He wasn't sure what my deck did or anything so after I chalice on 1, i get beat down by swiftspear eidelon.
Game 2: Turn 1 chalice, he suspends a rift bolt, i play a plains and pass, he plays eidelon, i disenchant, next turn i urza's bauble 40 times to kill him on my next turn, will post about this at the end.
Game 3: I am fairly certain I miss played during this game but I dont remember when. Either way eidelon and me missing a piece cost me the game

Round 5 Maverick 2-1
Game 1: Combo goes off without a hitch turn 2
Game 2: Opponent waste locks me, and makes a 20/20 for the early kill
Game 3: I had a massive army of mentor tokens, ballista, and a salvagers, no LED but I would recur baubles and petals to keep triggering mentors. I swing in for over 34 damage, had my opponent done 1 thing slightly different on his turn, he could have decayed my chalice, made a 20/20, blocked a big mentor and swords his 20/20 killing me on the swing back. He saw the line but messed up his mana horribly

Semi Finals Eldrazi 0-2

Game 1: He knows what I am on, main deck is less great vs squids, he leads with chalice on 0, i fight the mid range fight but he can out value me without me being able to slow cantrip.
Game 2: I keep a decent hand with double trinket mage to get what I need, opponent has a hand of temple, tomb, jitte, tks tks tks surgical. He wins.....

Urza's bauble shortcut:
So this issue came up. I tell my opponent I am casting urza's bauble 40 times to draw 40 cards and see 1 card at random from his hand 40 times, ask him if he wants to shortcut and show me his hand. We had a judge sitting next to us all match because my opponent did not understand my deck. He explains technically we cannot shortcut because there is a chance that all 40 triggers could technically see the same card, but if we randomize his hand 40 times it will take us to time. I ask my opponent if he wants to show me his hand to save time, he says yes which is more so "free information" than it is a "shortcut." Now the issue here is if your opponent has a hand of 3 lands and 3 nonland cards, if you actually randomly looked at 1 card a time then there is a decent chance you could see the land a bunch of times, in this case it was 3 mountains. The only option to make this line faster is to explain what is going on to your opponent, and hope they just decide to show you their hand. Otherwise, you will be rolling or choosing randomly 40 times....

bonkotsu

06-12-2017, 09:34 PM

What I am testing for now:

4x Monastery Mentor
4x Walking Ballista
4x Auriok Salvagers
2x Magus of the Will

4x Urza's Bauble
4x Lodestone Bauble
4x Lotus Petal
4x Mox Opal
4x Chalice of the void
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Lion's Eye Diamond

4x Cavern of Souls
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Plains
2x Scrubland

SB
3x Disenchant
2x Containment Priest
2x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Orzhov Pontiff
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ratchet Bomb
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Battle at the Bridge

ChemicalBurns

06-12-2017, 09:56 PM

Are you implying we can get back Ensnaring Bridge with Salvager?:eyebrow:

Yeah this I why I shouldn't post at 2.00am > _ <

bonkotsu

06-12-2017, 10:01 PM

ChemicalBurns

06-12-2017, 11:59 PM

Sideboarding:

Now this is up for debate but it is what I have been having success with

Death and Taxes
This match is miserable. If Thalia hits the field it is an uphill battle, if you can out value them fast enough you may be able to get there. Use Ballista to shoot revoker and thalia as much as possible.

+1 EE +1 Ratchet Bomb +2 Containment Priest +2 Disenchant
-4 Probe -2 Trinket Mage

Delver
No changes, I never feel unfavored when playing against delver with a chalice deck, they have to stop chalice and work on your threats before they can bother with their own.

ANT
Chalice is great
+4 Leyline if you run it or +3 Faerie Macabre, +1 Ratchet bomb/EE for gobs
-4 Probe -2 Trinket Mage if needed

Eldrazi
This is a very good reason why I want Ensnaring Bridge
+2 Disenchant +2 Echoing Truth
-4 Chalice

Turbo Lands
+2 Echoing truth +3-4 Graveyard hate piece
-4 Probe -2 Trinket Mage

RG Lands
+2 Disenchant +3-4 Graveyard hate
-4 Probe -2 Trinket Mage

Burn
+2 Disenchant +1 EE +1 Ratchet Bomb
-4 Probe

Food Chain
+2 Disenchant
-2 Trinket Mage

Will write some more, but as you notice my usual cuts are Probe and Trinket mage.

I think D&T is a matchup we really have to address somehow with pretty radical sideboarding - EE and sideboard Plows sound like an amazing plan against them. I'd cut Chalice against them as well as our worst cantrips (Probe in your list, Lodestone Bauble in mine). I also think Jitte is a great card against them and really adds another dimension to our plan of attack.

Eldrazi similarly feels like a pain, since they have Chalice on zero, Leyline, Thorn - Disenchant is really overworked. I guess in red splash Wear // Tear is an option but seems a bit ambitious to cast. Again, SFM may be a good plan against this kind of matchup again.

I'm surprised you're cutting Mage so often - the splashed tutors feel like they gain a lot of power post-board when they can tutor up powerful bullets.

It Is Unfair

06-13-2017, 07:29 PM

I tried out the deck for the first time today. I played a smaller local paper tournament. Finished with a record of 3-1. Not really big enough to mean anything. I usually like playing on mtgo but I don't think this combo is suitable there since you can't shortcut anything.
Matches:
2-0 BR reanimator
1-2 RG Lands
2-0 Grixis Tezzerator
2-0 Grixis Delver

I didn't like the idea of playing gitaxian probe with chalice of the void much, or the fact that if you crack all your baubles you usually turn your own mox opal off, so I tried out a slightly more artifact heavy build and I liked it. Might try a "stock" list some other time.

This was the decklist I went with:

Maindeck:
3 Ancient Den
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Tundra

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal

4 Thoughtcast

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble
1 Lodestone Bauble
1 Walking Ballista
1 Shimmer Myr
2 Trinket Mage
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Auriok Salvagers
1 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
2 Disenchant
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Echoing Truth
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Karakas
4 Tormod's Crypt

GiveMeYourOil

06-14-2017, 05:29 AM

bonkotsu

06-14-2017, 03:01 PM

Would love to hear how its performing :) ?

I will post testing later. Tomorrow is game night for legacy (EE Bronze) then I will be testing here and there between other formats.

Another consideration I had was going a little more ham with mentor tokens by cutting some number of salvagers and LED for Dark Confidant. Your curve is super low so it should be fine, but also even more draws (bob goes through leovold) to vomit cheerios and make mentor great again.

pow22

06-15-2017, 05:11 AM

Morning all,

I've been experimenting a bit with Abbot of Keral Keep in a white/red build. IMHO, Abbot helps to make Salvager-less LED draws slightly better while providing another win condition under Salvagers/LED. Also, I was having trouble thinking of another card for four slots in my list. We do run a lot of 0 CMC artifacts so in theory Abbot with no free mana can be ok. Mishra's Bauble can check what the Abbot is going to hit, too, which appeals to the Timmy in me.

Here's the latest list:

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Arid Mesa
3 Plateau
1 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors

4 Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Mox Opal

4 Urza’s Bauble
4 Mishra’s Bauble
2 Lodestone Bauble

4 Chalice of the Void

4 Abbot of Keral Keep
2 Imperial Recruiter
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Auriok Salvagers
3 Walking Ballista

SB:
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Aegis of the Gods
1 Devout Witness
1 Disenchant
1 Karakas
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Nahiri, the Harbinger

Thus far I've jammed about six rounds online -- one two-man and one league -- going 5-1. Slightly weird meta. Beat Elves, ANT, ANT, Tin Fins, UG Stasis, but lost to Pox (?!?).

As Nicklas says, the combo is a real PITA to execute online. I had a turn 2 or 3 Lodestone/Salvagers/LED combo in one match, but wouldn't have had enough clock time to actually mill my opponent out so had to settle for drawing 10 cards and passing the turn, then killing with Salvagers/LED/Ballista the following turn (which still took about 5 minutes).

ChemicalBurns

06-15-2017, 10:32 AM

Report from today's weekly. Went 3-1, very easily could've been 4-0 if things fell a little nicer.

Round 1 vs. Aluren

Game 1: A really good bit of back and forth. I have Ballista and Chalice on one, while my opponent has Shardless Agent and a Deathrite pressuring me. I've seen he has Aluren in hand from some earlier Baubles. I draw a Salvagers at some point and slam it, passing the turn. My opponent taps out for Aluren... I have one card in hand Imperial Recruiter. I Recruiter at EoT for a Mentor I cast. I make a Monk army with Salvagers reviving trinkets + Mentor and it overwhelms my opponent's board.

+2 Disenchant
+2 Magus of the Moon
+1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
-2 Lion's Eye Diamond
-1 Mox Opal
-2 Lodestone Bauble

Game 2: My opponent starts with pre-game Leyline of the Void. No comboing for me, I suppose. I have Canonist, cantrips and a Chalice in my hand. I turn one the Chalice and it soon gets Decayed. I hold Canonist for when my opponent goes for Aluren, having bricked for many turns and flooding out. I eventually have to jam it. I draw Nahiri at some stage but I'm so behind on board that I don't think it matters. She gets Forced anyway.

Game 3: A sweet game. I turn one Ballista, turn two Mentor in to a bunch of Monks and start slamming. He eventually Deluges me, I shoot him with Ballista and my Monks die. I cast a Ballista on two, my opponent has DRS. Attack with Ballista and tank hard... I have Disenchant in case my opponent goes for Aluren, but I can also tap low for the Salvagers I just drew (sadly cannot turn on Metalcraft for the Opal that is sitting around which would give me requisite 2 mana). I opt to kill the DRS, cutting him off mana for potential Aluren and jam Salvagers. Make them have it! My opponent Deluges me again, but I draw... Monastery Mentor! I play a cantrip rock and make a Monk. My opponent is at 5. I have one card in hand, the Disenchant I've been holding. I draw Chalice that I cast on two, pumping up the team and kill my opponent. My opponent show me Aluren, Harpy and Parasitic Strix in hand. Well.

Round 2 vs. BUG Delver

I start on fetch Plains, cycle Lodestone Bauble. My opponent turn one DRSes. I play Tomb, Petal, Lion's Eye Diamond, Salvagers. And then kill him. Well then.

+2 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Magus of the Moon
+1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
-2 Lion's Eye Diamond
-3 Lodestone Bauble

Game 2 the power of basic Plains was great here. I fetch only Plains, beating a Wasteland I see from a Bauble. On turn one I cycle Lodestone, he casts a big Goyf turn two off his DRS and Trop. I fetch another Plains and slam Chalice. My opponent Dazes. My opponent slams another Goyf and things are looking grim... But I have the combo in hand. I have one turn to push through countermagic, so I slam another Chalice into a another Daze, not playing my Tomb this turn, seeing the Wasteland. He attacks me, and next turn I combo out with his countermagic run out.

Round 3 vs. ANT

Game 1 I turn one Chalice off a Petal and my opponent goes off a little prematurely, fearing me killing him. He dies to his Ad Nauseam.

-1 Auriok Salvagers
-4 Ballista
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+2 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Faerie Macabre

I like cutting Ballista, dunno about trimming one Salvagers. Maybe just cutting a Lodestone Bauble is better.

Game two I have turn one Canonist into turn three Mentor beatdown. Sadly my opponent Chain of Vapors my Canonist and then I die the turn after.

Game 3 is a sad one. I have everything - Chalice, Canonist and cantrips - and start off strongly. But I brick on any extra pressure. My opponent sits there doing nothing while I cycle cantrips finding more lands. He eventually draws Hurkyl's Recall, bounces my board and I die - with two LEDs in hand ready to either combo kill or feed a Mentor. Alas.

Round 4 vs. Grixis Delver

I Cavern and Lodestone Bauble. My opponent plays a DRS. I Tomb, Petal, LED, Salvagers. Booooom and they're dead. Note that if my LED got forced, I'd be in trouble here since I didn't have an extra source of White mana to combo with next turn.

+2 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Magus of the Moon
+1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
-2 Lion's Eye Diamond
-2 Lodestone Bauble
-1 Mox Opal

Game 2 my opponent starts on fetch go, I slam turn one Chalice. He Pierces. I have a second in hand. He passes back again after making a land drop, I play another Tomb and my second Chalice, he turns his Daze into a Shock and Chalice is in the house. My Plow in hand looks kinda sad when my opponent casts a Gurmag Angler that starts the beats. Luckily, I'm able to assemble my mana effectively and cast Nahiri, the Harbinger, exiling Angler! I find Magus after ticking her up next turn and full lock out my opponent. I find LED through my loots and eventually Nahiri ultimates to find Salvagers and combo out. Booooooom!

In short, the deck felt incredible and only when it drew dead (like any Stompy deck) did it feel lacklustre. There's a lot of interesting tensions to play around with - when to cycle trinkets or when to hold them for Mentor, etc. Still note sure on the sideboarding, but I do like trimming down to 3 Mox Opal to start with. Maybe replacing it with an Ancient Den, maybe something else. Multi-Opal hands feel absolutely atrocious at times, especially when Metalcraft can be hard to achieve at times and hence turning them into pseudo-Lotus Petals isn't even an assured thing.

Sideboard worked like a charm and I really loved Nahiri. Although a small sample, she did exactly what I wanted and her flexibility was much appreciated.

ChemicalBurns

06-15-2017, 10:06 PM

https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t35.0-12/19204780_2001950880033754_1354591480_o.png?oh=c7378cb765a2505073fa79a09514892d&oe=59455A07

Caleb's new list featuring Days' Undoing. I'm not convinced but...

bonkotsu

06-15-2017, 10:14 PM

Went 3-0 for our legacy game night

Round 1 : Bug Delver 2-0

Game 1
I keep early chalice hands with pontiffs, chalice on 1 turn 1, gets forced, attempt to do it again, it sticks. He gets me down to 8 with a flipped delver and nothing but 1 drops in hand. I eventually combo off with lodestone bauble.

Game 2
-2 Pontiff +2 EE
Again go for the turn 1 chalice, gets countered. Next turn play an uncounterable mentor, dump my hand of cheerios, draw a bunch of cards. Next turn play salvagers, pass. Turn after I chain some lotus petals to make my guys huge and overrun him.

Round 2 : UB Standstill 2-0

Game 1
He plays land, pass. I turn 1 chalice, it resolves. Tells me he doesnt have much going on in hand. Play a mentor, also resolves, vomit some cheerios, overrun him in two turns.

Game 2
-2 Pontiff -2 Infernal Tutor +4 Bob
He plays island, pass. I turn 1 uncounterable bob, he plays a factory, standstill, pass. Bob hits sol land, draw for turn is salvagers. Cast salvagers (uncounterable) popping his standstill, double LED into combo with lodestone bauble. Opponent had a FoW and surgical in hand, wasn't sure at what point to try to disrupt. I think no matter the situation I either kill him my turn or my next through his hate.

Round 3 : Dragonstompy (red prison midrange) 2-1

Game 1
Opponent knows what I am on, leads with chalice on 0, follows into moon, chandra, bridge. Get Fiery Confluenced out.

Game 2
-4 Chalice -2 Pontiff -2 IT +4 Bob +2 EE +2 Disenchant
Opp mulls to 6. I lead with ancient tomb into ballista for 1. Opponent turn 1 moons me, I play a land, LED, opal, cast mentor, make a few tokens. After some back and forth opponent attempts to volcanic fallout me, i disenchant his chalice on 0 to get mentor out of range, kill next turn.

Game 3
Opp has turn 1 chalice on 0 and not much else for a few turns. I keep a slower hand but had turn 2 bob turn 3 mentor. Hit the basic plains with bob, cast mentor. Overrun with mentor and tokens in two turns.

After some talking I think I am cutting IT for Bob, freeing up some sideboard space. IT was great in some games, but my friend explain just jamming bob can produce misplays on my opponents ends such as improper spot removal or fighting over the wrong pieces. I really want to add a 3rd disenchant to the side, also bridges.

bonkotsu

06-15-2017, 10:21 PM

List for Reference

4x Monastery Mentor
4x Walking Ballista
4x Auriok Salvagers
2x Orzhov Pontiff

4x Urza's Bauble
4x Lodestone Bauble
4x Lotus Petal
4x Mox Opal
4x Chalice of the void
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Lion's Eye Diamond

4x Cavern of Souls
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Plains
2x Scrubland

SB
2x Disenchant
2x Containment Priest
2x Engineered Explosives
4x Dark Confidant
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Battle at the Bridge
2x Faerie Macabre

mistercakes

06-16-2017, 03:13 AM

pretty good observation about using dark confidant in maindeck. ~~45 0cc cards in the deck.

bonkotsu

06-16-2017, 04:57 AM

pretty good observation about using dark confidant in maindeck. ~~45 0cc cards in the deck.

He doesnt just auto tutor the piece you need, but being able to draw an extra card a turn is never a bad option. This line does open you up more to engineered plague on human if people still play that......

mistercakes

06-16-2017, 06:24 AM

if i decide to put the deck together again, i'll try a 2-2 split.

ChemicalBurns

06-16-2017, 08:54 AM

He doesnt just auto tutor the piece you need, but being able to draw an extra card a turn is never a bad option. This line does open you up more to engineered plague on human if people still play that......

EPlague on Human is fine - Mentor makes Monks, not Human Monks ;D

He's a non-discriminatory kinda guy.

cris_rj

06-18-2017, 07:34 AM

ChemicalBurns

06-18-2017, 10:37 AM

Played the w/r version (with 2 imperial recruiter) and the u/w version (trinket mage). Bouth are great decks but marimbondos imperial recruiter (w/r version) its a bit slower because you find auriok scavengers and need an extra turn to set the combo off. When using trinket mage you normally win in the spot wile fining led or walking ballista.

In w/r version I relly liked the 2 magus of the moon sideboard, it's a lock piece against delves decks that are in the meta and can't be countered (cavern of souls).

Going to test a b/w/r (red for sideboard) and see how it feels

I think the big boon to Wr is the grind cards you get. Recruiter opens up many more grindy value lines - getting Salvagers and setting up value plays with Baubles, killing an opponent locked out Chalice by tutoring for Mentor to kill them quickly etc. It's definitely more about supporting the value plan. I think it sacrifices the combo speed that Trinket Mage provides and adds a bit more resiliency.

However Nicklas (ItIsUnfair) has been jamming a Thoughtcast build which I like quite a bit. I'd be building it something like this:

Creatures: (13)
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Monastery Mentor
3 Walking Ballista
2 Trinket Mage

Non-Creature Spells: (29)
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thoughtcast
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Mox Opal
1 Engineered Explosives

Lands: (18)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Ancient Den
4 Seat of the Synod
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Tundra

Sideboard: (15)
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Disenchant
1 Echoing Truth
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Engineered Explosives

The velocity of Thoughtcast is quite neat, esp with Mentor.

cris_rj

06-20-2017, 01:05 PM

ChemicalBurns

06-21-2017, 09:20 AM

Played this version but I was punished with null rod (delver decks). I'm prefering the b/w version but with some changes (I used Sean's mana base and 2 tundras in the place of 2 plateaus). Gitaxian proble is not good but it's the best cantrip for the deck we have right know. Karakas is really important in my meta against snt and reanimator.

Magus of the moon was a great idea for the side, but when I side in is was normally useless because grixis delver can deal with it. Has anyone played the grixis bomberman Tanaka Mikito played in the last KMC tournament ? I think it's good to contact him because of his records and and inovations in bomberman

Null Rod is basically equivalent to Dredge seeing Leyline of the Void, it's real tough if people have it. :(

Mind linking this Grixis list? The most recent one I remember is the bizarre Esper list with Gifts Ungiven (which was really more of an Esper Chalice Control deck).

Magus I have found okay against Red Delver decks. The key is to force them to burn removal on other threats (Mentor, Big Ballistas, etc.) and then carve the way for either a lock-out or one of your key threats sticking. Magus doesn't auto-win the game (though if you have Chalice, he kind of does), but he ups the number of must-kill threats we have.

I'm not certain the Thoughtcast version is better than the OG version of Tanaka Mikito with Trinket Mage, just due to the stable mana. But I think if you go this direction Red has a few more benefits. Trinket Mage isn't as great as he seems, as finding Salvagers to grind is much more important than finding LED, which is essentially a brick without a Salvagers in play. But that's just my 2c, I'm sure there's a few good SB options from UW that haven't been explored (Meddling Mage + Probe/Baubles sounds really exciting).

Creatures: (14)
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Walking Ballista
4 Monastery Mentor
2 Trinket Mage

Non-Creature Spells: (28)
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Mox Opal
4 Lotus Petal

Lands: (18)
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Cavern of Souls
1 Inventors' Fair
4 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
2 Tundra

Sideboard: (15)
3 Meddling Mage
2 Containment Priest
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Disenchant
1 Pithing Needle
1 Karakas
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar

Mage also is really powerful post-board as a permanent-based protection piece when Chalice is unimpressive (eg. vs. Decay decks). There might be something here.

cris_rj

06-21-2017, 10:02 AM

Sorry Sean, I was referring the Esper list and not grixis list as I roted. :) going to test Mb 1 meddling mage in place of 1 ballista. When you side in Gideon ? Against grixis control decks ?

ChemicalBurns

06-21-2017, 09:43 PM

Sorry Sean, I was referring the Esper list and not grixis list as I roted. :) going to test Mb 1 meddling mage in place of 1 ballista. When you side in Gideon ? Against grixis control decks ?

Mainly against Czech Pile and other controlling decks. You just want to slam bombs until they die as otherwise all their removal lines up quite well vs our threats. Also synergises with Mentor draws quite nicely.

One Mage could be alright, but I think it's better off in the sideboard. Game 1 you just want to combo ASAP and having as many win conditions (especially since you're not running Lodestone Bauble, I imagine) is important.

ChemicalBurns

06-22-2017, 07:16 PM

Another week, another 3-1 for the Bomberman.

Creatures: (14)
4 Walking Ballista
2 Imperial Recruiter
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Auriok Salvagers

Non-Creature Spells: (27)
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Lodestone Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mishra's Bauble
3 Mox Opal
4 Urza's Bauble

Lands: (19)
1 Ancient Den
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Traitors
4 Windswept Heath
1 Inventors' Fair
2 Plains
2 Plateau

Sideboard: (15)
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Containment Priest
2 Disenchant
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Nahiri, the Harbinger

Main changes from last time:

-1 Mox Opal
+1 Ancient Den

A more stable source of Metalcraft, and stops the clunkiness of multi-Opal hands.

-1 Faerie Macabre
+1 Tormod's Crypt

Again, trying to make the Metalcraft synergies work a bit better. Suggested by L10, since in the late game will usually just Recruit for Containment Priest anyway.

-1 Lodestone Bauble
+1 Engineered Explosives

A concession to the D&T matchup and overall just a good card.

In the end, I was really happy with all the changes and things seemed to work together very nicely - stand-outs were definitely the Den and Inventors' Fair who added subtle consistency that was much appreciated.

Round 1: vs. Miracles

Game 1 my opponent holds up Counterspell all game (I have seen from a Bauble) and I cannot jam in my Mentor and am waiting for a Cavern. I hence keep some, but not all, Baubles in hand to cycle. I think this is wrong. I should've slammed Mentor as early as possible and just got my hand churning. Be aggressive. Eventually he taps low for his own Mentor, I Inventors' Fair for Ballista to kill it but he has Force and then I'm dead.

+2 Phyrexian Revoker
+1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
-2 Lion's Eye Diamond
-1 Lodestone Bauble

Game 2 I have Chalice on 1 into Mentor plus cantrips. My opponent has double Mentor, however. I have EE that can clear all the Monks away, but I set it earlier to two just for a Prowess trigger. I think this was wrong. Eventually I have Salvagers + Explosives that could've been great (I had the ability to set it to 3, but was short on mana because I needed to blow it, revive it and then play it again). Anyway, his Mentors go out of control, I die. Boo.

Misplays, misplays, misplays, I feel.

Round 2: vs. RUG Delver

Game 1 I kill a Delver with a Ballista early, Chalice gets countered by Pierce into double Daze, but it carves the way for the combo to get there.

+2 Magus of the Moon
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
-2 Lion's Eye Diamond
-3 Lodestone Bauble

Game 2 my hand is a bit flooded, and Magus of the Moon comes down. I use Bauble to look at his top cards and see the Bolt. Magus dies and True-Name clocks me while I get Wasted out.

Game 3 I win via too many Mentors just overloading my opponent's removal as they churn out from Cavern. Good times.

Delver decks feel like a very solid matchup, every single threat of ours is absurd against them.

Round 3: vs. Naya Loam

Game 1 my opponent is a dear friend, and Chalice on zeroes me. Nice. I assemble double Mentor to his Goyf, however, and eventually Salvagers joins the party too. I recur dead artifacts and get them countered to get my aggro on, and slam through double Knight and a Goyf.

+2 Disenchant
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Containment Priest
+2 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
+2 Phyrexian Revoker
-4 Chalice of the Void
-3 Lion's Eye Diamond
-3 Lodestone Bauble
-1 Mishra's Bauble

We going for full grind mode here; Chalice on zero means we won't be getting much done. I intended to board in more LEDs OTP (since we can get them through Chalice then).

Game 2 he has Chalice on zero and we grind a bit, exchanging Ballistas for Thalias, Plows for Goyfs/Knights and Explosives that gets Pridemaged. My own Salvagers sadly gets Plowed, otherwise looping Explosives would've put me in a great spot to keep clearing his board. The board stalls, my opponent assembles Marit Lage and I'm dead.

-2 Tormod's Crypt
+2 Lion's Eye Diamond

Game 3 we explode out by playing all our trinkets, mana rocks and LED before he can Chalice on zero us. He has a Thalia that gets Ballistaed. I Disenchant his Chalice, play a Mishra's Bauble. He taps out for a Goyf and Wastelands me down to two mana. I cycle Mishra's Bauble seeing another Thalia on top! UHHHH OHHHHH. But upkeep, draw... Draw mana and Salvagers to combo out for the win. Phew!

Round 4: vs. 4c Control

Game 1 my opponent gets stuck on mana and I have a Ballista that beats down a bit. I churn through his countermagic with Monastery Mentor, eventually sticking a Salvagers and a second Salvagers. I then have Inventors' Fair that is easily turned on thanks to my Ancient Den. I get LED and kill my opponent.

-4 Chalice of the Void
-2 Lion's Eye Diamond
-1 Lodestone Bauble
+2 Phyrexian Revoker
+1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Magus of the Moon

Game 2 my opponent again has mana troubles, I have an early Mentor + a Monk triggered by an LED. I have double Recruiter in hand, eventually assembling six mana in one turn to cast Recruiter and tutor for Magus - I'm aiming to dodge any potential GY hate he may of expected to be great and hence why he kept a mediocre hand leading with Trop. He Forces the Magus. Ok. Next turn I cast Revoker, he lets it resolve and I name the on-board Nihil Spellbomb he played. I then Recruiter, crack LED in resp, get another Magus (here I could've also got Salvagers, but destroying his mana better plays around Deluge, since I can't combo out immediately. I do need to dump my hand this turn however because I have seen a Hymn from Bauble and hence if he draws a second Black source I'm in trouble) and turn his Trop, Volc and Badlands into Mountains. He shows me a hand of Black-intensive spells and etc. while my mediocre beatdown gets him.

Deck feels great, need to better mulligan and be more aggressive at just sticking it to my opponent. Giving my Miracles opponent too much time was a grave error.

paradigm72

06-23-2017, 05:13 PM

It Is Unfair

06-23-2017, 06:13 PM

Has anybody been brave enough to try this on MTGO? Thinking through what I believe to be the click sequence, I expect it to be 6 clicks per LED loop: 1 to cast LED, 2 to activate, and 3 to recur. If you can make two clicks per second, that's only 120 seconds to make 40 mana for a lethal Ballista. Not sure if it would be too frustrating, though.

It is fine when you have a ballista, especially since it is all open information and deterministic, so they can concede long before you reach 40 mana. The problem is when you don't have ballista and have to first loop for mana, and then loop a bauble to draw most of your deck in their turn, and then once again loop in your own turn to kill, that is almost impossible on mtgo but still a fair amount of your wins. And usually they shouldn't concede until after they have seen their own top card.

ChemicalBurns

06-23-2017, 11:27 PM

Thanks for all the writeups and work on this Sean! I've got the UW Trinket Mage version together right now and have been doing paper testing at home. Seems pretty powerful so far, but can struggle to have enough threats. I guess that's the problem with not running Recruiter as threats 9 and 10, just don't have him yet.

Has anybody been brave enough to try this on MTGO? Thinking through what I believe to be the click sequence, I expect it to be 6 clicks per LED loop: 1 to cast LED, 2 to activate, and 3 to recur. If you can make two clicks per second, that's only 120 seconds to make 40 mana for a lethal Ballista. Not sure if it would be too frustrating, though.

I think Nicklas speaks the best from experience, and I really think it's too cumbersome to try, so sadly we likely won't be seeing any 5-0s anytime soon. Lodestone Bauble is no longer feasible as a kill on MODO either.

I also think that Recruiter is big game (more on that in a moment), but if you are on UW, be ready to mulligan to your threats, and I think mulligan strategy is still something that needs to be figured out for this deck. I think that's the hardest part of this deck; not keeping "trap" hands with only Baubles and no way to assuredly get payoff from them.

Anyway, another 3-1 at a GP side event. List:

Creatures: (14)
4 Walking Ballista
2 Imperial Recruiter
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Auriok Salvagers

Non-Creature Spells: (27)
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Lodestone Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mishra's Bauble
3 Mox Opal
4 Urza's Bauble

Lands: (19)
1 Ancient Den
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Traitors
4 Windswept Heath
1 Inventors' Fair
2 Plains
2 Plateau

Sideboard: (15)
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Containment Priest
2 Disenchant
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Nahiri, the Harbinger

Round 1: ANT
Game 1 is an interesting one. I'm on the draw, don't find Chalice, but I have turn two kill if I find a Ballista/Lodestone Bauble. So we roll with it, only end up drawing most of my deck in my opponent's upkeep. He can't kill me, so next turn I kill him.

+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+2 Tormod's Crypt
+2 Phyrexian Revoker
-4 Walking Ballista
-1 Engineered Explosives
-1 Monastery Mentor (not sure what the 6th cut should be...)

Game 2 I Chalice on 1 him, play Mentor on two and then combo him g3. Noice.

Round 2: Shardless BUG

Game 1 I'm on the draw, Chalice him then Mentor stalls the ground. My mana is a bit funky (relying on an Opal for White mana), and my opponent has gone land Suspend Visions, into Goyf into Shardless (casting Shardless of a Wasteland), hitting a countered DRS. The Wasteland is incoming on my Tomb; I need to dump my hand (plays around Hymn too), so I play Recruiter, crack LED for WWW and bring Salvagers onto the table, ready to combo out next turn if I draw a White source or an artifact for Metalcrafting the Opal. My opponent untaps, casts Jace, bounces Salvagers and I fall behind soon after as a Visions resolves.

-4 Chalice of the Void
-3 Lodestone Bauble
-2 Lion's Eye Diamond
+2 Magus of the Moon
+2 Phyrexian Revoker
+2 Disenchant
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Nahiri, the Harbinger

Game two mull to a sketchy six with no lands and two Baubles to cycle. Have a Petal though. Scry and see Tomb, so I can deploy Nahiri soon! Cycle into another Petal and turn one Nahiri to my opponent's DRS. I also saw something terrible from the Bauble... Null Rod. So my Nahiri is digging for Disenchant and ideally the mana to cast it. I don't get there as my opponent soon Needles my Nahiri on 8, I never draw a White source and soon die.

Round 3: Elves

I have Chalice on one on the draw (no die rolls won for me! Sadface), but I cannot find Ballista fast enough. I'm one turn from tutoring for Ballista off Fair to kill his Ranger and Arbor (shoot Ranger first, then Arbor), but he NOs me next turn.

+2 Containment Priest
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+2 Phyrexian Revoker
-3 Lodestone Bauble
-2 Monastery Mentor
-1 Lion's Eye Diamond

I wanted to bring in Plow too, and maybe that's better than Revoker, but I'm not sure.

Game 2 I make a turn one Ballista, he t1 Nettle Sentinels, I t2 hold up mana. He Zeniths, I Containment Priest him. Noice. I then Mentor, make some Monks, make a second Ballista, shoot down piles of Elves and find a second Priest. He's burnt out of resources and I get there. Ballista is crazy in this MU. My opponent also Saged an on-board LED out of fear, when all it was doing was triggering my Mentor and maybe fuelling a Ballista.

Game 3 my opponent mulled to five, led on Cradle and I Chaliced him, then Revokered him, then comboed him.

Round 4: MUD

Game 1 my opponent pressure me with Golems after I Ballista down an early Metalworker before it untaps. Imperial Recruiter bides some time, but with two Golems staring at me I draw LED and combo out with my on-board Salvagers luckily.

-4 Chalice of the Void
-3 Lodestone Bauble
-1 Lion's Eye Diamond
-1 Urza's Bauble
+2 Disenchant
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Phyrexian Revoker
+2 Magus of the Moon
+1 Nahiri, the Harbinger

Game 2 my opponent led with Chalice on one, Lightning Greaves and Metalworker; he then put in an Orbs of Warding. I had Mentor and other aggro friends getting work done, and my opponent is well-off casting the Sundering Titan in his hand. He then draws Forgemaster and Blightsteels my motley crew.

Game 3 is a epic game. I have a slow hand, but can deal with a lot of problems, and Nahiri to filter later. My opponent has an early Lodestone into a Orbs of Warding, and I Plow his Lodestone, untap, and start Nahiri ticking up. My opponent has a lot of mana from posts, and casts a Thorn and a Metalworker. I Recruiter for Revoker on the Metalworker while Nahiri keeps filtering my hand. Staff of Domination comes down and it's Nahiri vs. his card draw engine. I'm whittling at his lifetotal, and soon add a Mentor to the board and cast some rocks making some Monks. Salvagers also joins the table but is ineffective with Thorn in play. Eventually my Inventor's Fair tutors Explosives, I have an LED on the table and I blow it for 2 and for 3 to remove all his rubbish, and then ult Nahiri for another LED to go off and wreck my opponent with massive Monks. Was a really crazy game, and winning through all the hateful permanents made me in love with Fair and Explosives' flexibility.

So yeah, 3-1. Explosives was impressive, Revoker was good but could see a 1/1 split with Vandal (an out to Rod that's Recruiterable sounds neat), Fair remained great, the Den did work and yeah, Bomberman, Bomberman, Bomberman. It's a good time.

ChemicalBurns

06-24-2017, 09:45 AM

Sorry for the double post, but another 3-1. 4-0 so close :(

List was same as last time, except -1 Revoker, +1 Manic Vandal for the SB.

Round 1: Eldrazi

Game 1 was a bit lame. My opponent played two Endless Ones and a Matter Reshaper and this ended up being enough for some reason as I failed to assemble Mentor + Salvagers to overwhelm them.

+2 Magus of the Moon
+2 Disenchant
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Manic Vandal
+1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
-4 Chalice of the Void
-3 Lodestone Bauble
-1 Lion's Eye Diamond

Game 2 I play turn one Magus and feel I got this. Sadly I dont. My opponent gets an Endless One and then a Jitte. I assemble an army of Monks and Recruiter for Vandal the turn before he equips. Sadly, he equips, kills Magus, casts TKS and I die empty handed to the Jitte. Without it I feel my Monk army would've been able to get there. But alas.

Round 2: Jeskai Stoneblade

Game 1 I get Chalice on one and slam a Mentor into a likely Counterspell, letting me cycle Baubles and move on with life. I end up short of my fourth mana for a long time, and TNN starts pressuring me. Jace is also present, ticking up, but my Ballistas keep bashing him up. Eventually I get three mana for Recruiter > Salvagers, and then combo out before he kills me. I guess his hand was all one drops.

-2 Lion's Eye Diamond
-3 Lodestone Bauble
+1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
+1 Manic Vandal
+1 Phyrexian Revoker
+2 Disenchant

He starts on nothing, I start on Chalice which he forces. I keep slamming threat after threat at my opponent, slamming a Salvagers with a Petal and mana floating to revive my dead Chalice. He Plowshares my Salvagers. Draw step my opponent Cliques me and takes my Chalice. Saccing my Petal to revive the Chalice also lost me my only source of red, and I'm left with a recruiter I can't cast in hand. I find Mentor though, and end up racing the Clique (Disenchanting my own LED on the penultimate turn) to kill my opponent. Good stuff.

Round 3: Belcher

t1 Chalice on one, I see two Probes from Baubles and expect ANT - though my opponent only played an LED and no land. So I sideboard:

-1 Engineered Explosives
-4 Walking Ballista
+2 Tormod's Crypt
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Phyrexian Revoker

My opponent starts on Taiga and makes a Belcher (!) but luckily has nothing else. I turn one Revoker off a City to my opponent's surprise, then they eventually lose when I draw my whole deck and combo out some turns after.

If I knew my opponent was on Belcher I likely would've cut Crypts, kept in Explosives and a Ballista.

Round 4: Turbo Depths

The coolest part of the day. I kill my opponent on turn two with Lodestone, fast mana, and Salvagers + LED. Must be nice. I also don't reveal Red mana.

+2 Magus of the Moon
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Manic Vandal
+1 Phyrexian Revoker
-4 Walking Ballista
-1 Engineered Explosives
-1 Chalice of the Void

My opponent starts with a turn one Sphere and I shrug. He eventually Into the Norths a Dark Depths and I fetch my Plateau and cast Magus next turn. I then also Magus again the turn after. And then Vandal the Sphere. I'm locked out of White mana, but my opponent cannot function and I beat him down. Lovely dopey Magic.

I'm not sure how to SB against Depths; I think I want Disenchant over the Chalices, but maybe this depends on play/draw (OTP Chalice cuts off discard). Late Chalices also can be set to two to cut off a fair few cards. Can also keep in Explosives too to blow up Needles or Spheres.

Maybe sideboard like this:
-4 Walking Ballista
-4 Chalice of the Void
+2 Magus of the Moon
+2 Disenchant
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Phyrexian Revoker
+1 Manic Vandal

Thoughts?

slugfarm

06-25-2017, 01:40 PM

Thoughts?

These are some excellent tourney reports. Well done and thank you!

I don't get to play much but I do love this deck, so filter my comments accordingly:tongue:.

Cards that seem good against Depths are Revoker, Pithing Needle (I run 1 SB), StP, Magus and Vandal. Karakas is useful too. Crypt too if they're Loamy maybe?

I've been running 3 each of Recruiter, Salvagers, Ballista, Trinket Mage and Mentor. Mana isn't as wonky as I anticipated due to Petals and 4 Moxen, though I keep adding and subtracting a Spire of Industry for a Plains or Fair. Still trying to decide if the Mages are worth the space though. The Recruiters certainly are, and I run War Priest of Thune and the Vandal over Disenchant since they are tutorable and uncountable with a Cavern out.

I often consider a SB True Believer or 2 for things like TKS, Clique, Pox decks, but that's pretty meta dependent.

ChemicalBurns

06-25-2017, 09:07 PM

So, another big tournament report. Seven rounds Win-a-Mox on the final day of GP Sydney. Same list as my previous post.

Round 1: vs. D&T

Game 1 is pretty amazing. Ballista does huge work at mowing down Thalias and other pieces of my opponents board. My opponent misses their second land drop but has a t1 Vial. Mentor and a second Mentor pressure my opponent so much that they are forced into awkward blocks. The only card that was a true pain was Serra Avenger (and fliers in general are a bit of an issue). There was also a strange scenario where I had to Chalice on zero purely for Mentor triggers. But anyway, we get there with the horde of angry Monks.

-4 Chalice of the Void
-3 Lodestone Bauble
-1 Lion's Eye Diamond
+2 Disenchant
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Manic Vandal
+1 Phyrexian Revoker
+2 Containment Priest

This game is also fairly straightforward. I begin on a Ballista while my opponent Revokers it on their turn three after Wastelanding me down. I accelerate with an Opal to cast Imperial Recruiter (still with two basic Plains up, noice) and get Vandal. My opponent casts a Thalia and a Mom, I shatter Revoker and gun down Thalia. Man, Ballista is great. Eventually my opponent tries to get a SoFI on Mom, but I have Salvagers which neatly blocks her. I also saw a SoLaS from a Bauble, but I guess he felt it would be ineffective with all my Red creatures on the board. Anyway, I find Mentor and start to churn out Monks, and then eventually use Fair to combo out.

Round 2: vs. Storm

Game 1 I'm not sure if my opponent is on Storm, though I have a suspicion he is (though I saw him playing Goblins one of the previous days sooooo). I mull a weak seven with Ballista and lands to a six with Ballista and cantrips, and I decide to keep. This, I think, was wrong. I should've mulliganned more aggressively into either a quick combo/Mentor or Chalice. I die on turn 3.

-4 Walking Ballista
-1 Engineered Explosives
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+2 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Phyrexian Revoker

Game 2 we have everything - Chalice on 1, Revoker on Petal, and a Salvagers and Recruiter. We beatdown for awhile and my Chalice gets Decayed. I revive it with Salvagers, cast it again, then next turn Recruit into Canonist. Opponent cannot get there. My opponent mulled to five this game however.

Game 3 we have a turn one Mentor with Crypt and Opal, so I keep. I draw into Revoker as well which names LED. Mentor is pressuring incredibly fast, but we alas do not get there, as my opponent Decays my Crypt, forcing me to wipe the little he has, then goes off with Cabal Rituals, IT and PiF. A close game, my opponent needed to find a final Ritual off his Preordain to get there (but his odds were quite high nonetheless).

Round 3: vs. Lands

Game One, we draw our whole deck on opponent's upkeep of turn two. I know he has a Crop Rotation in hand, but we have double LED which can very easily beat a Bog. He puts Chasm into play thinking he can get there, but I show him what Lodestone Bauble does and we're on to the next one.

+2 Tormod's Crypt
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Disenchant
+2 Magus of the Moon
+1 Phyrexian Revoker
-4 Chalice of the Void
-4 Walking Ballista
-1 Engineered Explosives

Game Two my opponent mulls to five, we're beating him down for awhile (I think with Mentor) and naturally makes Marit Lage very fast.

Game Three my opponent mulls to four and I Recruiter for Magus of the Moon on turn two. He wastes my Plateau, however, and I never draw a Red source of mana again. I get aggro with Mentor, but he survives on one life when he makes Marit Lage and I die. Shit. Such a heatbreaking loss, it was really so close. I could've done things a little differently, however - I could've gone "all-in" on Recruiter > crack LED get Magus (but lose everything to a Punishing Fire), or I could've even just tried to combo him out. I should've been more patient, but instead I lost to a well-timed and well-placed Wasteland. Alas. I should've recognised my shortage of Red mana and accounted for this, but I got too greedy for the Magus of the Moon free wins. Remember that Magus is not a win con, he is just a piece of disruption.

I think a better way to play the match is Mentor first, get Tomb Wasted, play basics/fetches until I can Recruiter > crack LED Magus (hoping Mentor absorbs a PFire for us) and then move on with life.

Round 4: vs. RUG Delver

A very easy one. We Chalice him, he Forces, he Dismembers a Mentor going nuts, it carves the way for Salvagers to combo him out. It helped that his double Delvers didn't flip.

+2 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Magus of the Moon
-3 Lodestone Bauble
-1 Lion's Eye Diamond

Chalice sticks, my opponent bricks on lands because he cannot cantrip, we very easily combo out.

Round 5: vs. Eldrazi

This matchup is still hell, gosh. I don't know what my opponent is on, I keep a hand very much reliant on Chalice being good. He starts on Mimic, I slump and realise my hand does nothing. I get beatdown, my opponent Chalice zeroes me once I cast an Auriok Salvagers too; there's no outs left.

-4 Chalice of the Void
-3 Lodestone Bauble
-1 Lion's Eye Diamond
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Disenchant
+2 Magus of the Moon
+1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
+1 Manic Vandal

My opponent Leylines me, I try to win with Mentor beatdown, be he's not getting there through the aggression. Chalice on zero appears too.

Okay, this matchup feels like hell, and we really need to derp them out with Magus to get somewhere. We have some good tools, but they're just a bit too slow and clunky. Many have mentioned Ensnaring Bridge as a solid answers, and if this deck was more prominent, I'd consider that in my SB as a Fair target.

Round 6: vs. Sneak & Show

Game 1 I Chalice him, then get a Mentor Forced and then get the combo of Salvagers going and draw my whole deck. Luckily his hand was cantrip-dense and we get there.

+2 Containment Priest
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+2 Disenchant
+1 Phyrexian Revoker
-4 Walking Ballista
-1 Engineered Explosives
-2 Lodestone Bauble

Game 2 I have t1 Mentor into a bunch of Monks with Revoker in hand. I see Griselbrand from a Bauble. He casts Show and Tell, puts in Omniscience, I put in Revoker naming Griselbrand, he has Emrakul and Griselbrand. Okay then.

Game 3 I cast a turn one Revoker on Sneak Attack, my opponent Ponders. I have enough mana to eventually Chalice for three but that gets Forced. Next turn I draw Chalice again, can either cast it for 3, or cast it for 1 and combo out. I opt for Chalice three, next turn my opponent has Needle on Salvagers, rats. I cast Salvagers, draw another one, and the 2/1 and 2x 2/4 beatdown get there.

Round 7: vs. Imperial Painter

Ballista is great in this matchup, clearing out lots of stuff. Nonetheless, game one Mentor steals the game pressuring my opponent considerably and eventually combo winning through his three blockers (thanks to Fair tutoring LED) since I had Mentor + 3 Monks made.

-4 Chalice of the Void
-2 Lodestone Bauble
-1 Lion's Eye Diamond
+2 Disenchant
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Phyrexian Revoker
+1 Manic Vandal
+1 Nahiri, the Harbinger

Again, Ballista is great, and wins this game. I start on early Mentor, gun down a lot of his guys, Plow his Painter and Recruiter for Vandal destroying his Grindstone. I also get an EE on two. We eventually stall with Bridge in play (Recruiters and Vandals staring back at each other!) but my Ballista keeps ticking up and my opponent is low on life from Mentor and Tomb damage. Eventually I try to tick Ballista up to four and my opponent goes to Bolt him - shoot his face. Next turn I Fair for another Ballista and shoot his face for the win. Noicu.

So a 4-3. The close losses were Storm and Lands, which very easily could've gone either way (I think vs. Lands, I just sequenced wrong and got too gamey). Eldrazi felt highly unfavourable, especially not drawing Moon post-board. So that's definitely something to consider. Nonetheless, I was impressed with the deck's strength against D&T, as well as just in general. 10-5 over this weekend doesn't sound particularly great, but the deck is so in flux. Learning how to play it and its intricacies was a great experience.

There was a few misplays I have to note:

Screwing up Mox Opal Metalcraft a few times by shooting with Ballista before casting another artifact
The aforementioned looseness with Recruiter and Magus
When to cycle certain cantrips. Vs. Storm, I think you always want to draw during your own upkeep to avoid discard. When boarding Priest or Plow, cracking on your turn and drawing on opponent's upkeep is best.
I never "scried" with Mishra's Bauble and a fetch, and I should be doing this more often. I keep forgetting about it and auto-piloting to targeting the opponent.

Only changes I may be making in future is:
-1 City of Traitors
+1 Cavern of Souls

City always feels unstable, and even though the deck can slog through counterspells well, being able to set one to Construct and one to Human would've been lovely. Anyway, hopefully y'all enjoyed these reports, I'll keep jamming the deck in my weeklies and try and continue tuning as best I can. I'll also be updating the primer with matchups at some stage.

- Sean

8bit9mm

06-27-2017, 11:37 AM

Claymore

06-27-2017, 11:47 AM

Would good ol' Gustha's Scepter have good use here? It would let you hold a combo piece safe from LED.

Michael Keller

06-27-2017, 12:20 PM

It may be corner-case, but if you can find a way to sacrifice the Scepter with cards exiled face-down beneath it, those cards do go to the graveyard and don't stay exiled. Thus, you could still get things going with Salvagers after the fact.

ChemicalBurns

06-27-2017, 08:50 PM

I should be running ChemicalBurns' exact list at our monthly Legacy FNM this week. I'll report back on how it went afterwards. Going to be testing until then.

I'd like to go to an IQ on Saturday in AL, but can't seem to get anyone else interested in going. It'd be nice to get Bomberman on coverage.

This might be helpful @8bit9mm, I've written some rough sideboard guides for common matchups. The red highlighted ones I'm a little unsure of.

Tempo

Grixis Delver/BUG Delver
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Magus of the Moon
+1 Phyrexian Revoker
-2 Lion’s Eye Diamond
-3 Lodestone Bauble

UR Delver
+2 Swords to Plowshares
-2 Lodestone Bauble

Midrange

Bant Deathblade
+2 Forsake the Worldly (How much do we actually care about equipment, other than Jitte?)
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Magus of the Moon (Mana dorks can make this ineffective)
+1 Phyrexian Revoker
-2 Monastery Mentor (Gets bricked by TNN easily)
-3 Lodestone Bauble
-2 Lion’s Eye Diamond

4c Control/Shardless BUG
+2 Forsake the Worldly
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Magus of the Moon
+1 Phyrexian Revoker
+1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
-4 Chalice of the Void
-2 Lion’s Eye Diamond
-2 Lodestone Bauble

Prison

Death & Taxes
+2 Containment Priest
+2 Forsake the Worldly
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Manic Vandal
+1 Phyrexian Revoker
-4 Chalice of the Void
-1 Lion’s Eye Diamond
-3 Lodestone Bauble

Dragon Stompy
+2 Forsake the Worldly
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Manic Vandal
+1 Phyrexian Revoker
+1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
-4 Chalice of the Void
-1 Lion’s Eye Diamond
-2 Lodestone Bauble

Eldrazi Stompy
+2 Forsake the Worldly
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Magus of the Moon
+1 Manic Vandal
+1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
-4 Chalice of the Void
-1 Lion’s Eye Diamond
-3 Lodestone Bauble

Mono-Red Sneak Attack
+2 Containment Priest
+2 Forsake the Worldly
+1 Manic Vandal
+1 Phyrexian Revoker
+1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
-4 Chalice of the Void
-1 Lion’s Eye Diamond
-2 Lodestone Bauble

Combo

Storm
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+2 Tormod’s Crypt
+1 Phyrexian Revoker
-4 Walking Ballista
-1 Engineered Explosives

Sneak & Show
+2 Containment Priest
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+2 Forsake the Worldly
+1 Phyrexian Revoker
-4 Walking Ballista
-1 Engineered Explosives
-2 Lodestone Bauble

Turbo Depths
+2 Forsake the Worldly
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Magus of the Moon
+1 Manic Vandal
+1 Phyrexian Revoker
-4 Chalice of the Void
-4 Walking Ballista

Lands
+2 Forsake the Worldly
+2 Tormod's Crypt
+2 Magus of the Moon
+1 Manic Vandal
-2 Lodestone Bauble
-1 Lion's Eye Diamond
-4 Walking Ballista

Reanimator
+2 Tormod’s Crypt
+2 Containment Priest
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Phyrexian Revoker
-4 Walking Ballista
-1 Engineered Explosives
-2 Lodestone Bauble

Elves
+2 Containment Priest
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Phyrexian Revoker
-2 Monastery Mentor (Board gets stalled)
-2 Lion’s Eye Diamond
-3 Lodestone Bauble

Food Chain
+2 Forsake the Worldly
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Magus of the Moon (They have a lot of basics, maybe this is not reasonable)
+1 Phyrexian Revoker
+1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
-4 Chalice of the Void
-2 Lion’s Eye Diamond
-2 Lodestone Bauble

Dredge
+2 Containment Priest
+2 Swords to Plowshares (I want this, but still want Chalice too)
+2 Tormod’s Crypt
-2 Monastery Mentor (Want to kill them fast, but board gets stalled by Zombies at times)
-3 Lodestone Bauble
-1 Lion’s Eye Diamond (This seems wrong. Should aim to kill ASAP)

Burn
+2 Forsake the Worldly
+2 Swords to Plowshares
-3 Lodestone Bauble
-1 Imperial Recruiter (Seems to slow, forces us to fetch non-basics to cast)

Would good ol' Gustha's Scepter have good use here? It would let you hold a combo piece safe from LED.

Definitely seems like a sideboard card to me. The deck is designed to dump its hand before it goes all-in on LED anyway, and you can also "hide" cards from discard by cycling Baubles at the correct time. The deck also has a lot of in-built redundancy anyway, and Salvagers returns everything once you find one anyway. But in attritiony matchups where discard is involved this could be neat, especially since Salvagers is one of the more important to hide cards there. Being a zero-mana artifact, as always, makes it promising.

Redkid43

06-27-2017, 10:41 PM

How has Magus of the Will been working out in WB builds?

ChemicalBurns

06-28-2017, 02:51 AM

How has Magus of the Will been working out in WB builds?

I think it has largely been unimpressive, and has been cut for Bobs.

8bit9mm

06-28-2017, 12:50 PM

This might be helpful @8bit9mm, I've written some rough sideboard guides for common matchups. The red highlighted ones I'm a little unsure of.

This is great! Definitely printing this out.

I've been testing against Delver variants and D&T for the most part.
Delver doesn't seem to be a problem at all. Mentor overwhelms them easily and Cavern wrecks their gameplan.

The D&T player is probably the most technically skilled player in the area. It also doesn't help that D&T seems to be a very rough matchup to begin with. Game 1 I feel like we can't even deploy our Chalices for fear of them being Flickerwisp'd back to zero.

Michael Keller

06-28-2017, 02:31 PM

The D&T player is probably the most technically skilled player in the area. It also doesn't help that D&T seems to be a very rough matchup to begin with. Game 1 I feel like we can't even deploy our Chalices for fear of them being Flickerwisp'd back to zero.

Hanna's Custody!

ChemicalBurns

06-28-2017, 06:44 PM

This is great! Definitely printing this out.

I've been testing against Delver variants and D&T for the most part.
Delver doesn't seem to be a problem at all. Mentor overwhelms them easily and Cavern wrecks their gameplan.

The D&T player is probably the most technically skilled player in the area. It also doesn't help that D&T seems to be a very rough matchup to begin with. Game 1 I feel like we can't even deploy our Chalices for fear of them being Flickerwisp'd back to zero.

D&T is rough, but Ballista and Mentor is your saving grace. You ideally want to use Ballista to either carve the way for a Mentor or combo through Thalia. Revoker definitely puts a wrench in this though, but post-board cutting Chalices and adding additional removal helps out a tonne.

Agree on Delver. There's just too many threats against them that are must counter, and we soon wear through their resources.

cris_rj

06-28-2017, 09:04 PM

Going to test the W/U version in a LGS:

Using the following list:

4 lodestone Bauble
4 Misharas Bauble
3 walking ballista
4 monastery mentor
2 trinket mage
4 auriok salvengers
3 mox opal
4 chalice of the void
1 engineered explosive
4 gitaxian probe
4 Led
4 lotus petal

Mana:
4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
4 plains
1 inventor fair
4 cavern of souls
1 ancient deen
2 tundra

Sideboard:

2 desenchant
2 containment priest
2 ethersworn canonist
2 disenchant
3 StP
3 tormod crypt
1 karakas

Any Suggestions using the W/U version ? (cant afford Recruiters in real life =( )

itrytostorm

06-29-2017, 08:01 AM

Hey, all. Anyone have a new WB list? I love the idea of Bobs in the list. It seems like if you want the effect, there should be 4. I also don't want to cut Infernal Tutor (has been great). Magus of the Will seemed more cute than good, so I easily see getting away from that.

ChemicalBurns

06-29-2017, 11:15 PM

Sigh, a poor performance from the Bomber. 1-3.

List:

Creatures: (14)
4 Walking Ballista
2 Imperial Recruiter
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Auriok Salvagers

Non-Creature Spells: (27)
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Lodestone Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mishra's Bauble
3 Mox Opal
4 Urza's Bauble

Lands: (19)
1 Ancient Den
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
1 City of Traitors
4 Windswept Heath
1 Inventors' Fair
2 Plains
2 Plateau

Sideboard: (15)
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Containment Priest
2 Forsake the Wordly
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Manic Vandal
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Nahiri, the Harbinger

Round 1: vs. The Rock

BG good stuff. Game 1 get triple Thoughtseized; he takes Mentor, Mentor and Salvagers and I have no action and die.

-4 Chalice of the Void
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Phyrexian Revoker
+1 Nahiri, the Harbinger

I should've cut some random stuff for Forsake, as we'll soon see...

Game 2 I get pressure to two life before I draw the fourth Piece of mana to combo out. Phew. I make a misplay on the penultimate turn shooting down his Lili in resp to Edict with Ballista, which grew his Goyf and made drawing Tomb not an out.

Game 3 he Needles Salvagers and I have Recruiter but no Vandalto get. I get Salvagers instead, hope to draw EE but don't and die.

Round 2: vs. Aluren

Early Mentor makes two Monks who then grow into 6/6s each turn thanks to Salvagers + Petal. Sick. I eventually combo out the turn before he finds Aluren to kill me.

-2 Lion's Eye Diamond
-3 Lodestone Bauble
-4 Chalice of the Void
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Phyrexian Revoker
+1 Manic Vandal
+1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
+2 Forsake the Worldly
+2 Swords to Plowshares
(may of brought Magus, I'm not sure)

t1 I Plowed his DRS (off a Petal) t2 I killed him. Huh.

Round 3: vs. Dragon Stompy

Game 1 I play very poorly. I could've raced Chandra with Salvagers + Ballista loops, but instead I decide to try and take her down and I end up getting burnt out by her. Sadface.

-4 Chalice of the Void
-1 Lion's Eye Diamond
-2 Lodestone Bauble
+2 Forsake the Worldly
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Phyrexian Revoker
+1 Manic Vandal
+1 Nahiri, the Harbinger

He t0 Chalices me, I Vandal it after I t1 Ballista. He then casts a Trinisphere. I play a Mentor. He Confluences my board. I'm sad. I can't play through the 3Ball and soon a Chalice on zero joins the party. This matchup makes me want to cry.

Round 4: vs. Lands

Game 1 he has double Diamond Stage and Rotation for the combo. My hand is a little too slow. Anyway, I get 20/20ed.

-2 Lodestone Bauble
-4 Walking Ballista
-1 Lion's Eye Diamond
+2 Forsake the Wordly
+2 Tormod's Crypt
+2 Magus of the Moon
+1 Manic Vandal

My opponent has Chalice on zero, but I end up Forsaking it and making a million Monks with Mentor and swing for lethal.

Still not sure about Chalice here. I think it's okay on the play, less-so on the draw.

Game 3 he gambles for an early Chalice, it slows me down enough that I can't get there and die. I have a Chalice on 1 looking at me sadly as the rest of my hand is moot. I get Wastelocked and cry.

Tl;dr, beat fair blue decks, died to Chalice/Sphere decks. Forsake was not as good as I anticipated. I like it in random matchups where they may have Needle/Rod, but in matchups where it's Chalice/Sphere city, Disenchant is much better (I could've killed one turn earlier vs. lands if I had Disenchant) since there's almost always a prime target. Anyway, I think I'll be changing to -1 City of Traitors +1 Ancient Den, trying to make Opal as reliable as possible once more.

Speaking about this, myself and L10 and a few others have been thinking of the stability of Mono-White as quite a boon:

Creatures: (12)
4 Walking Ballista
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Monastery Mentor

Non-Creature Spells: (30)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Lodestone Bauble
2 Engineered Explosives

Lands: (18)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Den
4 Plains
2 Inventors' Far

Sideboard:
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Containment Priest
2 Disenchant
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Phyrexian Revoker/Pithing Needle/Sorcerous Spyglass (once Spyglass is out)
2 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Tormod's Crypt

Ultra-clean main deck, with Opals and Fairs' much more powerful since a full set of Dens can be fit in. Lose Reruiter utility, but surprise disruption of TKS in the SB is pretty neat. Also, this list is miles cheaper than any of the others thanks to lacking Cities and Recruiters ;D

Hey, all. Anyone have a new WB list? I love the idea of Bobs in the list. It seems like if you want the effect, there should be 4. I also don't want to cut Infernal Tutor (has been great). Magus of the Will seemed more cute than good, so I easily see getting away from that.

I think bonkotsu has the most experience with Wb so far. I think building it with Infernal Tutor and Bob would end up something like this:

Creatures: (14)
3 Walking Ballista
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Auriok Salvagers
3 Dark Confidant

Non-Creature Spells: (29)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble
2 Lodestone Bauble
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Mox Opal
3 Infernal Tutor

Lands: (18)
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
3 Scrubland
2 Plains

Sideboard: (15)
2 Containment Priest
2 Disenchant
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Battle at the Bridge
1 Sorin, Solem Visitor
1 Pithing Needle/Phyrexian Revoker/Sorcerous Spyglass

Mana base is cramped, Opals seem to be struggling a bit. Choosing Bob and Tutor may be too much strain on the deck. This is a preliminary untested sketch you can start with, but YMMV.

8bit9mm

07-01-2017, 02:37 PM

Played in our monthly Legacy FNM last night. Did fairly well. 3-1

Here's the list I ran:

Artifact (27)
4x Chalice of the Void
1x Engineered Explosives
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
3x Lodestone Bauble
4x Lotus Petal
4x Mishra's Bauble
3x Mox Opal
4x Urza's Bauble

Creature (14)
4x Auriok Salvagers
2x Imperial Recruiter
4x Monastery Mentor
4x Walking Ballista

Land (19)
1x Ancient Den
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
1x City of Traitors
4x Flooded Strand
1x Inventors' Fair
2x Plains
2x Plateau

Sideboard
2x Containment Priest
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Disenchant
2x Magus of the Moon
1x Manic Vandal
1x Nahiri, the Harbinger
1x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Swords to Plowshares
2x Tormod's Crypt

Round 1: Dragon Stompy
Game 1: He's on the play. Turn 1 Trinisphere. Yep.
I play some lands, but scoop it up when he lands a Rabblemaster to conceal what I'm on.
Game 2: I go Ancient Den, pass. He goes Chalice on 1 (sometimes scooping has it's advantages).
I go Ancient Tomb, Mentor, and make 5 monks. He dies next turn to the beats.
Game 3: He goes Mountain, 2x Mana Monkey into 3-Ball. Uh-oh.
Plains pass. He bricks on land and passes.
Ancient Tomb, Mentor, pass.
He bricks again. I start paying 3 for Baubles and LEDs and eventually get there with mediocre monk beats under a 3-ball.

1-0

Round 2: Eldrazi & Taxes
Game 1: He Turn 1 Thought-Knot's an LED out of my hand. I eventually start making monks to brickwall his spaghetti monsters. Never saw a Thalia out of him and eventually combo out by drawing my deck.
Game 2: He goes turn 1, Mox Diamond, Chalice on zero, into Thorn of Amethyst. The hate is real people. I play a land and run a Lotus Petal into his Chalice to chump-check him. He's no chump and remembers his trigger. Next turn I drop an EE for zero, paying 1 colorless to get around Chalice, but decide to wait on popping it with my floating colorless mana to play around another Chalice he might have. I pass, he drops a Null Rod. Punished. To be fair, this shuts off his own diamond which cuts him off white. I play a Recruiter and grab a Magus of the Moon to cut him off wingding mana as well. He plays a Revoker and names...Engineered Explosives? I guess he was afraid of removal for his Null Rod. He also drops another Thorn. I drop the Magus, cut him off wingdings and eventually get there with anemic beats.

2-0

Round 3: Death & Taxes
Game 1: He has Thalia, Revoker, and Prelate on zero. What more can I say.
Game 2: Thalia after Thalia, plus a Rest In Peace. Yep.

2-1

Round 4: Maverick
Game 1: I don't do anything but set up for a couple turns cracking baubles. He has a Deathrite and a Scooze on board but only has 1 green available via the shaman. I go for the combo, he responds to the Salvager activation attempting to eat my LED, I respond by cracking a Petal and using my floating white mana to activate again in response for the win.
Game 2: I make a few monks and he kills me with a 20/20 frozen sea beast.
Game 3: Land pass for me. He plays a Deathrite and passes. I kill him turn 2. Hey, sometimes it's nice when you have the stone-cold nuts.

3-1

Thoughts:
The list feels fairly solid. Going to be switching out the Disenchants to try out Forsake the Worldly, but I'm still a little skeptical with the extra 1 CMC, but cycling is cool. Mentor is an all-star. Sometimes it just wins you games by it's lonesome. The Recruiter package saved me for sure in a couple games. There's no way I'd be cutting red in the near future (maybe that's the Shortcake player in me, damn do I miss that deck). I didn't play any games where the 4th Cavern would have made a real difference, but it still felt right, even though I love City of Traitors as a card. Lodestone Bauble seems weak at times and gets stuck on board a lot when you're trying to preserve tempo by being mana efficient. The fact that it is a kill condition and a zero-drop monk-maker still warrants me keeping 3 though.
I was thoroughly surprised by the resiliency of the deck. I won under a 3-ball. I also won under a boardstate of Chalice on 0, 2x Thorn, and a Null Rod. I wouldn't have thought that possible if you asked me before the FNM.

8bit9mm

07-02-2017, 03:15 AM

Drzed

07-02-2017, 07:01 AM

I was thinking about this deck as I really like it. But why no one is trying thoughtcast in an UW build? This deck seems like vintage mentor as it plays moxen and lotuses so why not playing some copies of gush? I don't really know of it's needed but with more blue cards we can eventually fit in some copies of force of will. Flusterstorm seems pretty good as the only counterspell that can be played under a chalice and while protecting the combo it allows the deck to play more blue cards to pitch. Also borrowing some technology from calebd monk stompy we could fit some copies of erayo. Just throwing ideas out dunno if this could work. I'll probably build it and goldfish it a bit to see if we can fit everything in a 60 card list

EDIT: nvm there's not enough place to fit fow. Thoughcast seems good tho

pow22

07-03-2017, 05:38 AM

https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com/london-legacy-monthly-june/

Nice little feature about a WR list at the end. This one plays Abbot of Keral Keep. Not sure how I feel about it, but still neat to see this deck get a shout out.

Yeah, that's me!

Abbot is fairly unexciting, but it gives the deck a bit more to do early game beyond Chalice while helping to dig for LED/Salvagers. I've messed around a bit with three colour versions for both Trinket Mage and Recruiter, plus the older Imperial Bomberman lists (with Tops) and felt the decks were a little too heavy on 3+ drops. Abbot is the least bad two drop that I've found in WR.

FWIW, I ended up going 3-3 at the London event, beating BR Reanimator, Lands and a Punishing Fire/Dack deck while losing to UR Delver, BUG Delver and another Lands player. It feels like the deck generally has a good match-up vs the slower good-stuff decks. Delver's great if you're on the play and stick a Chalice, but I think we run out of gas pretty quickly so you're kinda screwed if they answer your opening threats. I got lucky to beat the combo decks. Felt like I was a little unlucky to lose to the two Delver decks.

It's possible that I'm insane, but I've been testing the deck online quite a bit too, generally with pretty decent results. IIRC, I've done about four leagues, going 4-1, 4-1, 4-1 and a lone 3-2. Executing the combo is super-annoying, but, thankfully, most people just concede when it's obvious that you have the win. Milling with Lodestone Bauble is impossible, but you can usually just cycle Lodestone a few times to set-up a better win con on your next turn. Having said that, the combo is sufficiently tedious that I'll likely only play the deck in paper from now on.

But why no one is trying thoughtcast in an UW build?

ItIsUnfair has been playing a Thoughtcast build. Sean posted the list on the previous page.

I really like the idea of Mentor and Thoughtcast -- I used to play a bit of Thoughtcast Mentor in Vintage and the deck was sweet -- but it might be a slightly different deck IMHO. Baubleman runs a lot of artifacts, but the artifacts generally don't stay in play for very long, so they don't actually work that well with affinity or metalcraft. I've cut the Mox Opals from my Baubleman list now and haven't really missed them.

I'm sure there is a deck with Thoughtcast, Ancient Den, Seat of the Synod, Chalices and Mentors. Just not sure that it wants 8-12 baubles and Lotus Petals.

ChemicalBurns

07-03-2017, 06:48 AM

I'll be updating the primer with the new options (Thoughtcast, Abbot, Bob etc.) when I get a chance. I do like the idea of a Thoughtcast, Chalice, Mentor deck but... I think mana just ends up being too fragile and wonky.

Also, my enchantment destruction is going to be switched to Seal of Cleansing moving forward. We can set it and forget it to trigger a Mentor, rather than have it rot in our hand. I think it and Forsake are both reasonable options to extract some form of value from potentially dead Disenchants.

Also, mediocre 2-2 from me recently. Beat UR Delver (Chalice, lol), Grixis (Mentor too good) and lost to "Team Australia" Grixis Delver (w/ Tombstalker and Stifles - in G1 my final game-winnign Recruiter got Stifled even though he was Caverned and I died) and RUG Delver. Mainly lost to mana issues, and misplaying against RUG - I turned off Metalcraft by chumping with Ballista and then couldn't get to 4 mana in time. But yeah, Wasteland was a real hindrance for me, I have to say, setting me back multiple turns. I really want to fix the mana issues of this deck, and Mox Opal may be the main culprit - we have a lowered land count because of it and the Baubles, but Opal is so unreliable without playing artifact lands. But it triggers Mentor! I'm still lost on what to do with it, and aren't brave enough to cut it entirely like pow22.

8bit9mm

07-03-2017, 11:13 AM

I really want to fix the mana issues of this deck, and Mox Opal may be the main culprit - we have a lowered land count because of it and the Baubles, but Opal is so unreliable without playing artifact lands. But it triggers Mentor! I'm still lost on what to do with it, and aren't brave enough to cut it entirely like pow22.

I've only had issues with Opal in testing, but never in actual games. Ancient Den really helps. I could see cutting City of Traitors entirely for a 2nd Ancient Den, but it does seem a little risky to cut another sol land. Maybe go down to 3 Ancient Tombs and keep a miser's City?

Capi5681

07-04-2017, 04:24 PM

Hey guys, new to the thread and been completely obsessed with this deck the past month or so. I've been playing a Wb version with Bob and Pontiff sb (been an all-star)

List for reference:

4 auriok salvagers
4 monastery mentor
4 dark confidant
4 walking ballista

4 chalice of the void
4 mishra's bauble
4 urza's bauble
2 lodestone bauble
4 Mox opal
4 lotus petal
4 lion's eye diamond

4 cavern of souls
4 ancient tomb
1 city of traitors
2 ancient den
3 windswept Heath
2 plains
2 scrubland

Sb:
2 orzhov pontiff
2 containment priest
2 engineered explosives
3 disenchant
2 swords to plowshares
3 tormods crypt
1 karakas

Had our monthly legacy this past weekend and went 3-1

R1 Reid duke Pox list: 2-1
I feel like this is a good matchup considering our hand is semi resilient to hand disruption because our deck is 75% air and a re-draw at their EoT. Also the edict effects aren't great against monks and ballistas that don't do much anyway. G1 I get there with T1 bob T2 mentor into monk beats. G2 he has T1 Lily that I can't get out from after I fail to draw the necessary land for a T3 combo off. G3 I take the risk of playing a city of traitors T2 with the combo in hand so a white land, opal or petal off the top let's me combo off. Fade the wasteland, draw the white source and win.

R2 eldrazi stompy: 2-0
So this is a bad matchup for sure but my opponent just didn't understand my deck and chaliced on 1 G1 and didn't find chalice game 2. He probably didn't optimize sideboarding either as he just seemed perpetually confused (typical eldrazi player). Pretty sure he had semi slow draws both games and I had a slow but steady T4 combo both games

R3 LSV young pyro bedlam reveled grixis control: 1-2
He controls the game from T1 probe+therapy and does his thing. G2 walking ballista takes over getting up to a 6/6 while taking out a couple young pyros in the process then ends up doming for the win I don't remember when exactly but pontiff was also pretty important and a blowout when my Op had 2 young peezy + loads of tokens. G3 was a close one but bedlam reveler drew him loads of cards this match including 6 this game. Just too much to overcome. This deck is super cool I've always liked reveler.

R4 elves: 2-0
Chalice on 1 both games backed up my monk beatdown. Bob drew tons of cards in both games (I love you bob)

I love this deck. I'm a grixis delver player just sick of the grind and just wanna draw cards

Anybody else testing with the Wb version and loving them some bob as much as me?

ChemicalBurns

07-04-2017, 07:55 PM

Michael Keller

07-04-2017, 08:45 PM

One question: Has anyone considered Jeweled Amulet? In a Shimmer Myr iteration, it seems viable. Of course, Mox Opal is superior - but it's something to consider when augmenting the Opals.

Perhaps, a 3-1 split? This way you're not overly reliant on the legendary variable with the card, in addition to having to worry about awkward situations with Metalcraft. Just something to consider as a hedge.

Capi5681

07-04-2017, 09:10 PM

Great work! I've actually found discard heavy matchups rough at times, though as you said, timing Baubles is key. Bob also looks like he did some stellar work in the games you played.

I also really like the mana base you have here - two Dens feels like a sweet spot for turning on Opal reliably.

bonkotsu has been looking at Wb, and itrytostorm has been interested in it. I think the interesting challenge is how to fit in both Bob and Infernal Tutor in the list (and whether tutor is actually worth it, it also messes up the mana).

So I tried the infernal tutors outside of tournament play and found that they were often stranded in hand or just doubled up a bauble. When you're re-drawing 2-3 cards a turn you get stuck with lands in hand often and because it requires a non-human black source it forces you to play weird lands. Just found the air in the baubles are better

cris_rj

07-06-2017, 06:03 PM

ChemicalBurns

07-07-2017, 01:47 AM

Caleb D plays Wb!

https://www.youtube.com/embed/xB3En1-OHEY

Bob looking pretty dope here!

Capi5681

07-07-2017, 12:28 PM

Caleb D plays Wb!

https://www.youtube.com/embed/xB3En1-OHEY

Bob looking pretty dope here!

I was the "viewer" he references in the beginning of the video that suggested he play the bob version

procobrito

07-07-2017, 02:06 PM

Anyone tried a As Foretold Bomberman?

Easily to counter than Bob version, harder to remove. Can be faster, but need more pieces

ChemicalBurns

07-08-2017, 10:17 AM

Anyone tried a As Foretold Bomberman?

Easily to counter than Bob version, harder to remove. Can be faster, but need more pieces

You might want to shoot up a list; this seems interesting, but a bit tangential to what these current lists are looking to do. Could be neat tho, As Foretold/AV is an interesting draw engine for Stompy decks nonetheless.

Michael Keller

07-08-2017, 12:59 PM

You might want to shoot up a list; this seems interesting, but a bit tangential to what these current lists are looking to do. Could be neat tho, As Foretold/AV is an interesting draw engine for Stompy decks nonetheless.

I've been tinkering with an Oath of Scholars list that's been pretty tight. Stack the delayed draw triggers ATBOYU, draw three cards, draw card(s) off the Baubles and then for turn. Pretty gross and doesn't require bottlenecking the deck with added chaff.

It also plays Gustha's Scepter - which has been shockingly good with LED.

I'll post it up later.

procobrito

07-08-2017, 02:12 PM

You might want to shoot up a list; this seems interesting, but a bit tangential to what these current lists are looking to do. Could be neat tho, As Foretold/AV is an interesting draw engine for Stompy decks nonetheless.
Not only the draw, but the ramp with lotus bloom. Unfortunately, we can't do the loop with lotus bloom.
Restore the balance can be useful and blue have good defensive cards

Michael Keller

07-08-2017, 03:49 PM

Not only the draw, but the ramp with lotus bloom. Unfortunately, we can't do the loop with lotus bloom.
Restore the balance can be useful and blue have good defensive cards

AF is solid, the problem is that the card requires a lot of pseudo-clunky other cards to truly maximize its brokenness. If the deck is already facilitating zero-drops, is it worth relegating 8-12 slots for? Granted, you can fire it off quickly, but you need to weigh its value when architecting a deck.

cris_rj

07-08-2017, 10:30 PM

[QUOTE=Michael Keller;1016472]AF is solid, the problem is that the card requires a lot of pseudo-clunky other cards to truly maximize its brokenness. If the deck is already facilitating zero-drops, is it worth relegating 8-12 slots for? Granted, you can fire it off quickly, but you need to weigh its value when architecting a deck.[/QUOTEhello

Hello Michael, I followed a lot of your work and results with some decks (manaless dredge, u/r delver and dephs in mystical games). Iam Ansious too see your job with bomberman !

Michael Keller

07-09-2017, 05:07 PM

I'm tinkering with the lists; I'll refine and post when I can.

cris_rj

07-10-2017, 12:58 PM

Tanaka Mikito wrote how he build the uw bomberman in KMC website. Unfurtunetly he wrote in Japanese !! It's in the following link http://mtgkmc.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-500.html

Can someone translate it ?

He has already tested the bob version ! And going to test a
Monowhote verison in the following KMC events !

pettdan

07-11-2017, 07:21 AM

I've put in a translation from Google translate here. A lot of sentences don't make sence, I think I'll pause my effort for now. Please do message, or post, about your interpretations of some strange sentences. I've added a couple here at the start for those who like a puzzle. :)

...
Maiden Mage
> This refers to some creature, probably with toughness 1. Or it could be Meddling Mage.

This ability is extremely useful, and even with the board surface where manafrads after the midfield, where combos are not complete, together with Salvager's body can occur, you can turn that mana into an advantage, so it is strong in long-term warfare.

Also, I may be unable to write that the echoes are thin, so I am waiting for a comment.

If there is a problem on the scale, the next one will be in playing relationship. I will summarize it if it is summarized next time.

It is a bit painful as I am using it now because the solo music that played an important part in a ban was forbidden.
(Since the library shuffle can be almost arbitrarily arbitrarily used by "instinct of instinct", the value of use of the solo piece is very high)
> Is this referring to Sensei's Divining Top?

Somehow, I thought that I could not build a deck with a single Salvager, wisdom guild, "Mana cost as seen by score: 1 or less" "Card type: Artifact" "Construction range: Legacy" "Prohibition / Restriction: Exclude "and continue to search the days.

Pitch cemetery pair "surgical removal" also begins to use width, and there are lots of high-speed and high-stability combo decks in the first place than Monkey Bear combo. . .

Mana cost seen by points: 0 or less" "Card type: Artifact" "Construction range: Legacy" "Prohibition / restriction: Excluding prohibited cards"
The first thing I saw was the "chimaeric hordes" and "ovine incubator".

Anyway, the soap which is contained in a large amount from the main is painful (at the time Miracle the heyday). There is almost no way to deal with being eliminated at the timing when the hand is missing with the LED.
Pitch cemetery pair "surgical removal" also begins to use width, and there are lots of high-speed and high-stability combo decks in the first place than Monkey Bear combo. .

Monkey bell combo
> I assume this is a literal translation from Japanese equivalent to Bomberman combo, I think we can leave it for some extra Japanese touch.

...

Monkey bell combo in legacy

By Atelier

This entry explains latest Salvagers Combo Deck that I create.
The list adopt Chalice of the Void and Walking Ballista and more.
I wrote a sentence in English because I want people from all over the world to read it.
I expect translation by volunteers.

Hello nice to meet. It is Atelier of the godfather Ama's. English at the beginning is an advertisement for foreign countries and a pale expectation (laugh)

Dear Mr. KMC, who is always indebted to us,

"Would you like to write an article in a minute? (Always take care of yourself Gola? Do you think you became famous at our tournament?

Because it was said, thankfully I will write a commentary on the deck.
(Kansai people talk quickly for laughter)

This time, it will be a commentary about the monkey jar combo that is part of the topic as a result of being picked up in various media after having used it for the competition of this KMC and won the second prize.

Although it is a minor deck, it is a deck that makes funny movements (it does not understand well).
Recently I am interested and it is as long as I am thankful for those who actually use and using it.
I think that it would be good to increase such people, I will do my best to write it.

However, in fact,

"Oh! I saw the article! You can win if you do this, right?"
There are many people who go backfire, but that is it (laugh)

First of all, let's put a list on each article that will be the most famous.

Tanaka Mikito "Rogue Combo"
Known Magicians Clan - 75 th (second place)

4 Plains
2 Tundra
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient tomb
4 City of Traitors
- Land (18) -

4 Walking Ballista
4 Monastery Mentor
2 Trinket Mage
4 Auriok Salvager
- Creature (14) -

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Mox Opal
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lodestone Bauble
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Chalice of the Void
- Spell (28) -

4 Leyline of the Void
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Containment Priest
2 Serenity
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Disenchant
1 Echoing Truth
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ratchet Bomb
- Sideboard (15) -

Articles that took up this list
Mr. MTGGOLDFISH (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/this-week-in-legacy-march-statistics-european-eternal-weekend-and-75th-kmc)
The reporter of this article, Sean Brown seems to have liked this deck, and the person himself also uses it while making various adjustments.
I want to take contact once.

A sunny day, like you (http://www.hareruyamtg.com/article/category/detail/4089#legacy)
Weekly deck watching vol.114.
Earlier I had another Monkey Bay Jacket taken up, but I was allowed to appear for the second time. (Previous minutes are described below)

THE SOURCE (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31754-Chalice-Bomberman-Bomberman-Stompy)
According to Mr. ChemicalBurns, a thread based on this list was launched as New and Developmental Decks, Chalice Bomberman / Bomberman Stompy.
Discussions on various cards and lists have been made, and many participation results etc. of the convention are reported.

CHANNEL FIREBALL MESSAGE (https://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-calebd-legacy-bomberman/)
It is a simple commentary and a matchup video posted by Caleb Durward. Finally up to the channel.
Even so, he says he is building the latest version of Bob type he is about to explain in the next article.
that? Did you write less? · · · I'm not at peace! I already used it at some events! Is it?

※ The order of the description is in the order of the publication date as far as I know, and I make it clear that there is no other.

http://blog-imgs-106.fc2.com/m/t/g/mtgkmc/201707062221590fc.jpg http://blog-imgs-106.fc2.com/m/t/g/mtgkmc/20170706222200809.jpg

<List description>

Salvager combo is a method of recovering Lion's Eye Diamond (hereinafter referred to as "LEDs") from the graveyard by Auriok Salvager (hereinafter referred to as Salvager), incrementing by 1 mana at a time, infinite After winning the mana, I will refer to a combo that sticks with a "suitable card".

The innovative part of this list is that it adopts the Chalice of the Void (hereinafter referred to as "Chalice"), which greatly increased the deck power and combo success rate.
Indeed, it is a big breakthrough to put a chalice in this monkey jar combo, it is no exaggeration to say that it is no longer a paradigm shift.
Until then, it turned out to be the best partner from the former paradigm "Chalice is the enemy" (recognize it as recognition, thinking, common sense), it became the best buddy, it is not limited to the result of this one tournament, It is just a paradigm shift as you are considering examining at.

Chalice X = 0 is still an enemy as usual. Really, fucking (laugh).

(Oh yeah, I decided to make a paradigm shift on deck name, I have not been able to decide so far.What is my birth parent, can I name it? The problem is that there is a card with the same name ...)

http://blog-imgs-106.fc2.com/m/t/g/mtgkmc/201707062225206e1.jpg (I wonder if this card can do something wrong ...) [Edit: Paradigm Shift]

Also, the ability to reuse artifacts from the cemetery is a great advantage in environments where the current legacy is highly dependent on countermeasures and cemetery control by death rituals.
At the counter, it is impossible to stop cards that can be cast from the cemetery many times, and as a measure against the deck using the cemetery, the death ritual that is causing the reduction of the number of measures for the cemetery from the sideboard is also , It is helpless against artifacts.
We also believe that such factors have led to considerable attention in the spotlight.

Well, it is a deck of Bombermann 's alias, since Pyrite Spellbomb was used in "the suitable card" of the past year.

* Correctly, the variant of Salvager combo becomes Bomberman.
Notice that the number of necessary combo parts of the monkey jar combo is small (since there are no effective cards to substitute for, it is small (crying)), search cards in the direction to establish a combo for vacant frames Bomberman is a deck that shifts to control rather than counters and other obstacles.
In Japan, Bomberman is very famous for its name itself (bata throat), but it tends to be equated, but for the time being, we are aware that it is a deck that originally has a different direction.

Well, the story deviated slightly sideways, let's talk about "suitable card" = "finisher".

<Selection criteria of finisher>
The criteria for selection of the finisher in Salvager combo can not simply use infinite mana, but it is actually diverse. Let me explain one by one.

(1): Although you can use infinite mana, the greatest merit of the monkey jar combo is the occurrence of infinite mana, so it is better to use it.

(2): Since it is possible to infinitely repeat a series of actions of recovering, casting, and activating LEDs that can take advantage of cast induction of artifacts in hands, cards that operate with casting artifacts are also candidates for finishers .
It may be stormy or bold, it is classified here.

(3): The artifact can use triggering on the battlefield as above, this time it uses the triggering when you go into the battlefield. Although it is somewhat different, the type that utilizes artifacts on the battlefield is also included here in substance.

(4): Because of the nature that the hand is lost with the LED which is a tenon, the finisher must be placed in the battlefield beforehand or prepared by another means.
So, the first thing that attracts attention is the ability of Salvager.
It is the quickest because you can collect artifacts of less than 1 mana, in short, tenons from your graveyard to your hand.
The tenons that can survive themselves satisfy the condition of (1) at the same time.

(5): Casting from the Graveyard If you could originally be played from the graveyard, keep it or leave it in the graveyard in advance.
Flashback and aftermath correspond to this.

Of course, it is not necessary to satisfy all of these, but by satisfying many, the ease of combo alignment improves.
Also, the deck called Salvager Combo is not a type of deck to offer everything to decide a combo's one-pass, but a deck that fights with the overall strength of the whole.
So, because we meet a lot of criteria, a weak card by itself is not very favorable.
Based on that, I will write a detailed comment on the finisher that I am adopting.

http://blog-imgs-106.fc2.com/m/t/g/mtgkmc/20170706222521819.jpg

· Walking Ballista

The latest and most powerful creature in the finisher world of Salvager who descended at Kaladesh.
It is an inconvenient, convenient and strong finisher that made all past finishers in the past.
The selection criteria are (1) and (4).

Let's improve the compatibility of Ballista and Salvager.

As a condition of Salvager's finisher which is a tenon of 1: 0 mana, being a tenon is one of the big conditions.
And ballista keeps the role of the finisher even if you drop it to the graveyard beforehand because it is variable mana cost (X) (X) while mana cost seen by points is 0 mana, + 1 counter and player and creature You can defeat the player directly by the ability to be able to convert to 1 point damage to.

2: Because it is a colorless artifact which is colorless, you can receive the benefits of 2 Manaland greatly.
Because Salvager itself costs (3) (white), 2 Manaland is absolutely necessary to use, it is compatible, even if you use touch color as a list, it does not get in the way.

3: The ability to convert the +1 counter that can be used as a creature removal to 1 damage to a single point damage with no cost will be the finisher of the monkey baker combo, but this ability can be actively used from the early stage.
To Delver before turning over, Thalia and Phyrexian Revoker, toughness such as Young Pyromancer, Vendillion Clique and "Maiden Mage" 1 [Edit: Meddling Mage?], to counter troubles with multiple counters for multiple creatures, etc. (I have used the ballista cast at X = 1 in the official game and have dropped "tomb shinobi" without infinite mana) ).

4: Pay mana, Pump up possible
You can put a +1 counter by paying (4).
This ability is extremely useful, and even with the board surface where manafrads after the midfield, where combos are not complete, together with Salvager's body can occur, you can turn that mana into an advantage, so it is strong in long-term warfare.
Also, in the face of the opponent's cemetery limited to creatures (especially death ceremony [edit: Deathrite?]), cast it with X = 1 before, generate infinite mana, pump up with this ability, turn it into firepower It is also a very effective means to avoid cemetery pairs, so remember, there is no loss.

Due to the nature of the cards, put it on the opening early, set creatures with hatebears and clocks at hand in the ability, stay in the graveyard, give it out with a slightly larger X designation in the middle and become a useful clock, the final stage will appear in finisher size, It appears as the last part of the combo as it is, hand over the guidance.

I think there is no gap in the beginning, the middle stage, the final stage.

http://blog-imgs-106.fc2.com/m/t/g/mtgkmc/20170706222518796.jpg

· Monastery Mentor

The MtG world's strongest monk appeared in fate reforged.
Hold bold and bald.
As a standard, it falls under (2).

With the mentor in the battlefield, when the monkey jar combo is decided, infinite tokens, infinite bumps will be triggered by the cast LED.
Afterwards, if you have a monk without summoning sickness, you can hit as it is, game set, if you all are summoning sick you can not help it. In the next turn countless monks will inflict your opponent.

Because mentor only satisfies Selection Criterion (2) only with compatibility of Salvager Combo, advance preparations are necessary and it can not be said that it is that good.
However, there is card power that is too much to compensate for it.
It is important that you also have bold tokens that come out as bald and even one keyword that is bold can be a finisher of Salvager Combo so even if the main body is removed, the remaining tokens There are many scenes that inflict pumps to defeat opponents.

Also, because you do not need mana as a combo finisher, it is possible to go infinite by ignoring one increase in cost caused by Thalia or Thorn of Amethysts.

Other than that, we often decide not to decide combo simply by this alone,

1st turn: tomb tomb + from mental to mental to bauble, bauble, Opal
2nd turn: additional extra draw, additional draw, draw. LED, Chalice X = 1 with bold 2 points 13 points
3rd turn: 7 barely 20 points without bravery.

How it happens. The starting point is only a bald.

Turn 1: Tomb Chalice X = 1
2nd turn: Mentor from the cave of the soul

Is fatal to most decks except Combo.

In the final stage, when combined with Salvager, as long as there is mana, as long as it can tolerate token generation, the game may end at the next turn as soon as it is issued.
Especially when there are two petals or two Opals, it is extremely efficient as it can tolerate token generation with 1 mana.

List of manacosts required for bold and token generation with Salvager + major artifact

-1: LED
1: Lotus petal, Mox Opal (2 in total in battlefield, cemetery, or hand, only if you have achieved metal surgery)
2: Urza's Bauble, Mishra's Bauble, Tormod's Crypt
3: Lodestone Bauble
5: Engineered Explosives (It is necessary to cast with X = 1 so as not to flush the token)

Also, let's remember the damage calculation, which is called Mentor calculation if possible.
Normally it is a technique required only with vintage, but this deck requires its calculations as quickly as possible.
Especially vs. combo. There is a high possibility that Kirutan will change when playing sloppy. An irregular draw called Bauble is improving the calculation difficulty, but let's do our best.

http://blog-imgs-106.fc2.com/m/t/g/mtgkmc/20170706222202dc1.jpg

Lodestone Bauble

Originally, the finisher of this list that was originally created in this world. At last the human beings (or perverted as Ateliel (http://blog.fc2.com/tag/%E3%82%A2%E3%83%86%E3%83%AA%E3%82%A8%E3%83%AB) ), Chalice + Salvager + LED + Lodestone, caught up with this combination.
In the end, Salvager was born in the end, but it was 2004. It was a combination that was not amusing even if it was completed 13 years ago.

Ballista, mentor, followed by the third arrow.
The selection criteria are (1) and (4).
Ability is as follows.

"(1), (T), Sacrifice Lodestone Bauble: Put up to 4 basic land cards in a player's graveyard and put them on top of that player's library in the order you want. That player draws a card at the beginning of the upkeep of the next turn."

The difference with other bauble is that you can draw directly to the opponent instead of one mana.
This route is not affected by players' impossibility such as "sacred power lines" [Edit: Leyline of Sanctity?], and will not accept attack restrictions on the basis of Ensnaring Bridge as a representative.

Also, considering the roles other than as a finisher, it is a draw source that can be used in a charismatic environment, a mentor's boldish seed, and when a combo is not established where there is a Salvager, it can be used repeatedly.

In a single unit, it may seem subtle because it is weak, but its role as a lubricant to supplement it is very powerful.

That's it for the finisher.
Let's pick up another one and explain it.

http://blog-imgs-106.fc2.com/m/t/g/mtgkmc/201707062225159df.jpg

Cavern of Souls

Even if a finisher gets back from the graveyard, it is meaningless if Salvager is canceled in the first place.
Basically, it is the strength of the counter that you can only deal with the counter at the counter, but if it is, it will not be canceled in the first place.
Cavern of Souls makes it the easiest and sure to do it.
In order to designate humans, its benefits can be received not only by Salvager but also by mentors and Trinket Mages, part of the side hatebear.
Especially the side hate bear is important, Petal and Opal also join, if enough other than white mana can be suppressed to a single symbol, casting is enough.

This is the end of the 1st round.
Even if you skip ahead from here, there is nothing wrong with you, it will be a step of yourself and the monkey jar combo.
Next time I'd like to summarize the variations of the list and the cards under consideration.
If there is a problem on the scale, the next one will be in playing relationship. I will summarize it if it is summarized next time.
I hope it will be short for the next time or later (lol)
Also, I may be unable to write that the echoes are thin, so I am waiting for a comment.

<< Meeting with Salvager >>

Tanaka Mikito "Painter"
KMC GPT Kyoto Top 8

2 Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
4 Seat of the Synod
1 Ancient Den
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Ancient Tombs
1 City of Traitors
- Land (19) -

4 Painter's Servant
4 Auriok Salvager
- Creature (8) -

4 Brainstorm
1 Transmute Artifact
1 Intuition
3 Artificer's Intuition
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Mox Opal
3 Lotus petal
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Grindstone
2 Aether Spellbomb
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 Nihil Spell Bomb
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Meekstone
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
- Spell (33) -

4 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Apostle's Blessing
2 Pithing Needle
2 Defense Grid
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Disenchant
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
- Sideboard (15) -

http://www.hareruyamtg.com/article/category/detail/186

About two and a half years ago.
It is the list that I used for the first time a monkey jar combo. I was able to win a prize and it was picked up by a sunny evening shop, so the list was firmly left.

At the time, in order to go with a single Salvager, we are hybridizing Painter Combo, because all of combo ease of arrangement, speed, coping with difficulty was not enough.
It is a construction that tried to cover the area by setting up a large number of instant death.
This is not bad, it is not bad, the inherent gimmick is a rundown list, personally I like it.

<Gimmick that is difficult to understand>
· Salvager + LED + Engineered Explosives + Grindstone = infinite library out. If you start it you can go to find other spell bomb and other parts

· Salvager + LED + Engineered Explosives + spin-off [Edit: Sensei's Divining Top?] = infinite draw

Such.

It is a bit painful as I am using it now because the solo music [Edit: I think this may refer to Sensei's Divining Top] that played an important part in a ban was forbidden.
(Since the library shuffle can be almost arbitrarily arbitrarily used by "instinct of instinct", the value of use of the solo piece is very high)

Even with this list, I was working fine, such as 16th in the eternal party, but I always felt that I wanted another breakthrough.

<Aiming at the deck of Monkey Bay jury only>

Somehow, I thought that I could not build a deck with a single Salvager, wisdom guild, "Mana cost as seen by score: 1 or less" "Card type: Artifact" "Construction range: Legacy" "Prohibition / Restriction: Exclude "and continue to search the days.

Anyway, the soap which is contained in a large amount from the main is painful (at the time Miracle the heyday). There is almost no way to deal with being eliminated at the timing when the hand is missing with the LED.
Pitch cemetery pair "surgical removal" also begins to use width, and there are lots of high-speed and high-stability combo decks in the first place than Monkey Bear combo. . .

Something. What? . . .

So I caught my eye for the Chalice of the Void.

"(I always get infatuated with X = 0, but .... that, if you set it with X = 1, are not the above problems mostly resolved?)

It was the moment light came in.

http://blog-imgs-106.fc2.com/m/t/g/mtgkmc/20170706222517eb7.jpg

(*: It is an image image) [edit: I believe Gleam of Battle was added for illustrative purposes]

Fine hope that was born by not turning his eyes away from an unpleasant reality (Chalice X = 0).
In this way the next action changes like this.
"Mana cost seen by points: 0 or less" "Card type: Artifact" "Construction range: Legacy" "Prohibition / restriction: Excluding prohibited cards"

The first thing I saw was the "chimaeric hordes" and "ovine incubator". [Edit: maybe he refers to Chimeric Mass or Chimeric Coils]

However, because of its characteristics, Monkey Bayer Combo has infinite mana only at sorcery timing, so the above 2 pieces will receive the influence of summon sickness perfectly.
In addition, although Chimaera barely functions even on a single unit, the serpent is truly severe. Furthermore, as a fatal defect, "never falls into a graveyard" on its own and "never become an outlet for infinite mana in a battlefield".
This will not be decided well.

I do not like it conveniently ....

At that moment when it was being swallowed by deep despair the dazzling flash pierced through the body of an adult with no idea ...

Bauble: Awake me ... (ry)

That's so illegal. Although it is a slow trip, infinite draw is possible.
If it is premised that it can be drawn into the hand, the above two types will function sufficiently as a finisher!

However, actually it turned out to be a shape determined from the top of the charism if it goes well, but it takes 1 turn with a slow trip, 1 turn by summoning sickness, so put out infinite mana with Salvager combo It is a fatal slow to take two turns from, and it did not take shape because too many cards were needed.

Atelier (http://blog.fc2.com/tag/%E3%82%A2%E3%83%86%E3%83%AA%E3%82%A8%E3%83%AB) "If you do not rely on a bauble, increase the amount of chimaera obediently, and even put a trinket mage further, you can manage it somehow ...?"

L "Hey"

Atelier (http://blog.fc2.com/tag/%E3%82%A2%E3%83%86%E3%83%AA%E3%82%A8%E3%83%AB) "Yeah?"

L "Can not you do it with me?"

Atelier (http://blog.fc2.com/tag/%E3%82%A2%E3%83%86%E3%83%AA%E3%82%A8%E3%83%AB) "Oh, Oh, 0 In the rest of the mana galacta series, Alliances that produced the famous Force of Will, Lodestone Bauble forbidden to rerecord recorded as a rare card of rareness over that Will? , Baseline topography can not be broken so much, if it is supposed to start with 0 subjects, it will not cost you 1 mana to start up costs, and use Urza or Mishra with attached effects "

http://blog-imgs-106.fc2.com/m/t/g/mtgkmc/20170706222202dc1.jpg

Lodestone "But, can I choose a partner?"

Ateliel (http://blog.fc2.com/tag/%E3%82%A2%E3%83%86%E3%83%AA%E3%82%A8%E3%83%AB) "Well, if it works , it may well be able to decay the draw of several turns, but it's legacy and there is almost nothing like that in such a scene."

Lodestone 'No, I want you to look closely at the drawing'

Atelier "What?" That player draws a card at the beginning of the upkeep of the next turn ... ... that player?

Lodestone "Yeah"

Ateliel "If you start as 0 in your graveyard, what about the draw?"

Lodestone "myself"

Ateliel "If you start as 0 in your opponent's graveyard, what about the draw?"

Lodestone "opponent"

Atelier "Do you repeat indefinitely?"

Lodestone "Win in library out"

Atelier "a fb f f じぁ gf ふぁ g fa fu fa fa fa fa f f"

Well, well, like this, if you speak from the card, it is easy to think about and to think and build (laugh)

That's why it was the moment when Charisma berger became a form.

However, at this stage, the second plan was not established and it was still difficult to go with this one, so it was not possible to get results with the competition and so on.

<Time of restructuring>

Since then it lacks a deciding factor, the day we will continue to stare with the Wisdom Guild will continue.
One day, the rotation in standards was done, and Fate Reforged fell to the stan.
By the way, what kind of card was there?
Is it? Is it? Is it? Searching? Is it? Is it? Searching? Is it? Is it? Searching? Is it? Is it?

Bingo!?

So I am a mentor and a monaster.
I know about active in vintage, sometimes even in legacy sideboards, occasional bald that was in the main of Miracle.
Although I was concerned for a long time, I was not considering it because it was expensive, but when I think about it well, when the LED is recasted, the ability is triggered, infinite pump + infinite token!
Besides, although it is necessary to prepare in advance, there is no need to increase mana, so combos are not disturbed by Thalia or a single Thorn of Amethyst.
Even if the prowess of the body is killed, monk token also has prowess, so infinite pumping is possible!

And the completed deck is here.

4 Flooded Strand
4 Ancient tombs
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Plains
1 City of Traitors
1 Karakas
1 Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
- Land (20) -

4 Auriok Salvager
4 Monastery Mentor
3 Trinket Mage
- Creature (11) -

4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Mox Opal
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Lodestone Bauble
3 "Contraindicated Alchemy"
3 Impulse
2 "Distorted Mourning"
1 "rainbow-colored fragments"
- Spell (29) -

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Magus of the Moon
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 "sincere witness"
1 "Summoning Herquil"
1 Disenchant
- Sideboard (15) -

I brought this to the Grand Prix.
However, the result fell on the first day. It was drunk by the wave of Eldrazi.

In addition to forcibly using the meta-compatibility besides forcibly, there are few cards that can be touched on the board surface, overall that the cards are heavy and the tempo is bad, some factors have not been able to win It was.

In the year after that, I fell into a slump and it is impossible for this deck anymore, so I thought that I would like to retire from legacy now and play alone with a commander.

Meanwhile, it was the walking ballista I saw with Kaladesh 's spoiler that I met.

In a good way, I thought what hard work was to date until now, it was a card that I am addicted to Salvager perfectly.

From there we considered the number of baubles, the type of land, the number of sheets, etc. We examined the change and made it through the adjustment, it is the first list.

Completed with such feeling.
The hardship was long, but I was glad that I could see the eyes of the day.
I am going to continue my research in the future.

<Last>

It is a creative play movie that you used this list as a theme. I got permission to publish from my friend Short P (Hankoku).
It seems that this list was actually assembled, and the way of winning and losing is very well characterized.
It is perfect for the introductory part of Salvager Combo.
Often there are many other interesting decks picked up, and surely those who read this article up to this point will enjoy it.

Rationalist

07-12-2017, 02:58 AM

I kind of want to play this with Magus of the Wheel.

It is often immunized from the opponent's instant speed interaction, it dumps its hand, wheel effects have great synergy with LED, its combo pieces can sit on the battlefield instead of the hand, and he's an R2 human.

mistercakes

07-12-2017, 03:06 AM

Monastery Mentor. He's bald and bold.

procobrito

07-12-2017, 10:43 AM

a WR version with Leave // Chance looks nice too.

Capi5681

07-17-2017, 02:16 PM

Has anyone played with the deck lately, I feel as though the thread has gone a bit stale.

I saw Anuraag Das (twitch and mtgo AnziID) stream the deck playing the legacy challenge a couple weeks back, you can see the VOD on his twitch page.

Unfortunately he played it super poorly and it killed me to watch, also he was playing 4 city of traitors and zero artifact lands which I think is straight wrong. Also (and rightfully so because MTGO) he was playing G probe over Lodestone Bauble which is wrong in paper but probably correct online.

My current List:
4 auriok salvagers
4 monastery mentor
4 dark confidant
4 walking ballista

4 chalice of the void
4 mishra's bauble
4 urza's bauble
2 lodestone bauble
4 Mox opal
4 lotus petal
4 lion's eye diamond

4 cavern of souls
4 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors
2 ancient den
2 windswept Heath
2 plains
2 scrubland

Sb:
2 orzhov pontiff
2 containment priest
2 engineered explosives
2 disenchant
3 swords to plowshares
3 tormods crypt
1 karakas

Haven't had another opportunity to play lately but its an understatement to say that I've been chomping at the bit to monk-smash again soon!

Michael Keller

07-18-2017, 10:29 AM

Apologies for the delay not getting back sooner. Not only have I been playing the deck lately, I've been having some good success with it at my LGS in the two tournaments I've ran it in (cashed in the two, for what it's worth). I basically took the skeleton that everyone's basically been working with and made some functional adjustments and tweaks to accommodate new card choices. My list is still fluctuating a bit, but it's starting to take shape.

Here's what I've played, for reference:

Chalice Bomberman

4 Auriok Salvager
4 Monastery Mentor
3 Walking Ballista
2 Trinket Mage

4 Mox Opal
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Oath of Scholars
3 Lodestone Bauble
2 Gustha's Scepter
1 Mox Diamond

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Ancient Den
3 Seat of the Synod
2 City of Traitors
1 Inventors' Fair

3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Containment Priest
2 Holy Light
2 Disenchant
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Preacher
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Zuran Orb

As you can see, there are some card selections that I made that would indefinitely raise some eyebrows. I'm not going to waste anyone's time here and go over the obvious choices, so what I'll provide is an aggregate of the matchups I've played against in the last two tournaments, results and some notes:

vs. The Epic Storm [L: 1-2, Bryant Cook]
• Games two and three he has the turn-one kill that beats Leyline of Sanctity. I mean, nothing you can do there.

vs. Jund [W: 2-0]
• I accelerate into turn-one Oath of Scholars in game two and draw twelve (12) cards over four turns. Tip: You stack the Oath trigger with the Bauble triggers so you have a hand of five (+) cards at the end of your draw step. Pretty gross.
• Gustha's Scepter into LED, Mox Opal, City, hide Salvagers (from his Thoughtseize) on his turn, crack LED for WWW on my turn, activate the Scepter to bring back Salvagers and win (I think with Urza's Bauble drawing 50 cards).

vs. Maverick [W: 2-1]
• Game three I find LED on the turn he has double Knight (with only one active), activate the Salvagers, he tries for Bog, I activate again and punch through with a few astronomically-huge Monks.

vs. The Epic Storm [L: 0-2 Bryant Cook]
• He gets there game one after I mull hard.
• Game two I have the Leyline and he has a turn-one kill through it again.

vs. Grixis Delver [W: 2-0]
• Chalice on one baits out the Force, but Scepter and LED work overtime to accelerate (and protect) into the win the next turn.
• Holy Light gets some action here and wipes away a True-Name and some tokens. Monk beats get there.

vs. Sneak and Show [W: 2-1]
• I stall the board out with a Chalice on one, and Preacher holds down the wild west from there.
• I mull again. Oath of Scholars draws me 15 cards this game after resolving it on turn two preceded by a Chalice on turn one. I'm able to combo out with Urza's Bauble and draw a massive amount of cards with Cavern and Mox up for Containment Priest.

vs. B/R Reanimator [W: 2-1]
• Game one I die.
• Game two he dies to Chalice and Tormod's Crypt.
• Game three I mull again, but this time good old-fashioned beats get there. Trinket Mage gets Crypt to stall his plays.

An explanation of some cards:

http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MTG/EXO/en/nonfoil/OathOfScholars.jpg

This card is disgusting in this deck. With so many people watching over my shoulder while this was in play, its intrinsic power was evident as I was able to empty my hand and accelerate into a power-play. This card compliments that plan, as it rewards you for emptying your hand with zero-cost artifacts. In two separate games, I was able to draw a total of 27 cards. That's really good and I feel bests Probe in this deck. I tried Probe in dozens of games and just didn't like it at all; it felt out of place. Sure, you draw a card, get info and maybe a Monk - but in the face of Chalice of the Void and Ancient Tomb which hits you for two, this card just wasn't cutting it for me.

Oath, on the other hand, was really fucking good.

http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MTG/ALL/en/nonfoil/GusthasScepter.jpg

This card I've been tinkering with a lot lately. Back in 1999, one of the best plays in the Academy deck was to leverage this card in conjunction with LED. I think that combination has been lost over time. This card does a huge amount of work:
• It protects your hand from discard spells and effects.
• It allows you to keep a hand so LED (2) is an (effective) win with Salvagers. (LED, LED, hide Salvagers, crack for WWWWWW, Scepter it back to hand, cast and activate Salvager generating arbitrary mana.)
• It can sandbag hate cards against Storm, which I've entertained. Storm has a tendency to attack hands before comboing off, so you can hide something like a Mindbreak Trap and, when they attempt to win it, bring it back to your hand. It creates a "sub-hand" of sorts that they can't hit.
• It enables Metalcraft at zero mana.
• It lights up Oath of Scholars to trigger by hiding the cards.
• As mentioned, it eases the stress of aggressive mulligans because it turns Lion's Eye Diamond into a true Black Lotus.

Interesting note: all of the cards that get exiled from the Scepter go to the graveyard if Scepter leaves play. So worst-case scenario that happens - you still have those cards in the graveyard that you can possibly bring back with Salvagers.

The rest of the deck is self-explanatory, including the sideboard which is obviously in flux. Some other notes:

• Zuran Orb should be played in all sideboards at minimum of one, as facing down an Eidelon or Pillar is lights-out without this in play to juice your life total.
• Holy Light is Holy Light: it wipes the board, fits the curve and protects your own Monk tokens. It kills True-Name, of course. It also compliments Chalice against decks like Elves.
• Preacher is a one-of because I have some big creature decks in my meta. Priest is usually fine for that, but Preacher buffers the plan nicely. Not a big-tourney sideboard card, just local.
• Leyline of Sanctity is fine for this deck, but I'm entertaining a pair of (Mindbreak) Traps. That with Leyline and Chalice is great against fast combo, which this deck has a hard time dealing with. The synergy with Scepter is very powerful, as well.
• The mana base is still a work in progress. I haven't had too many issues with it, but I think a pair of Tundras would be fine. They aren't 100% necessary I don't think, but I could be wrong. Metalcraft early is so important, so I'll keep testing.

Capi5681

07-18-2017, 01:11 PM

An explanation of some cards:

http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MTG/EXO/en/nonfoil/OathOfScholars.jpg

This card is disgusting in this deck. With so many people watching over my shoulder while this was in play, its intrinsic power was evident as I was able to empty my hand and accelerate into a power-play. This card compliments that plan, as it rewards you for emptying your hand with zero-cost artifacts. In two separate games, I was able to draw a total of 27 cards. That's really good and I feel bests Probe in this deck. I tried Probe in dozens of games and just didn't like it at all; it felt out of place. Sure, you draw a card, get info and maybe a Monk - but in the face of Chalice of the Void and Ancient Tomb which hits you for two, this card just wasn't cutting it for me.

Oath, on the other hand, was really fucking good.

http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MTG/ALL/en/nonfoil/GusthasScepter.jpg

This card I've been tinkering with a lot lately. Back in 1999, one of the best plays in the Academy deck was to leverage this card in conjunction with LED. I think that combination has been lost over time. This card does a huge amount of work:
• It protects your hand from discard spells and effects.
• It allows you to keep a hand so LED (2) is an (effective) win with Salvagers. (LED, LED, hide Salvagers, crack for WWWWWW, Scepter it back to hand, cast and activate Salvager generating arbitrary mana.)
• It can sandbag hate cards against Storm, which I've entertained. Storm has a tendency to attack hands before comboing off, so you can hide something like a Mindbreak Trap and, when they attempt to win it, bring it back to your hand. It creates a "sub-hand" of sorts that they can't hit.
• It enables Metalcraft at zero mana.
• It lights up Oath of Scholars to trigger by hiding the cards.
• As mentioned, it eases the stress of aggressive mulligans because it turns Lion's Eye Diamond into a true Black Lotus.

Interesting note: all of the cards that get exiled from the Scepter go to the graveyard if Scepter leaves play. So worst-case scenario that happens - you still have those cards in the graveyard that you can possibly bring back with Salvagers.

The rest of the deck is self-explanatory, including the sideboard which is obviously in flux. Some other notes:

• Zuran Orb should be played in all sideboards at minimum of one, as facing down an Eidelon or Pillar is lights-out without this in play to juice your life total.
• Holy Light is Holy Light: it wipes the board, fits the curve and protects your own Monk tokens. It kills True-Name, of course. It also compliments Chalice against decks like Elves.
• Preacher is a one-of because I have some big creature decks in my meta. Priest is usually fine for that, but Preacher buffers the plan nicely. Not a big-tourney sideboard card, just local.
• Leyline of Sanctity is fine for this deck, but I'm entertaining a pair of (Mindbreak) Traps. That with Leyline and Chalice is great against fast combo, which this deck has a hard time dealing with. The synergy with Scepter is very powerful, as well.
• The mana base is still a work in progress. I haven't had too many issues with it, but I think a pair of Tundras would be fine. They aren't 100% necessary I don't think, but I could be wrong. Metalcraft early is so important, so I'll keep testing.

Thanks for your report, I love the exploration you're taking to the archetype, couple points:

Regarding Oath of Scholars, I see the obvious card advantage aspects of the cards and the general appeal, my only problem with it is that it is a non-cavern color-restricted cost which I've found isn't real consistent in the deck and the 4 casting cost just bugs me a bit (salvagers being 4 sometimes is restrictive enough). Just feels to me as a giant daze target. With that being said, I just picked some up on tcgplayer (for like .15 each lol) and will give it a whirl!

Sceptor - card disadvantage as it doesn't replace itself, yes I know it synergizes with oath ^ and also LED, which cannot be understated but it just seems like turn 2-3 are crucial for the deck and Mishra's bauble being another slowtrip wouldn't just be better. Again, I haven't played with the Sceptor, just asking the question that is begging to be asked.

I think if you're going blue splash and playing trinket mage then Thoughtcast is the better card to play for card advantage

I think playing less than 4 walking ballista is a mistake plain and simple. Our worst matchup is D&T and ballista is absolutely a HOUSE in that matchup. Also it keeps delvers at bay and just grows out of control quickly which helps in matches where plan A and B have been hated out.

I very much prefer the black splash with Bob as it allows for an uncounterable card advantage engine (its pretty tough to lose when you play a T1 Bob). Also, it may seem negligible but being able to play Pontiff in the sb over holy light is a huge boon. It can be uncounterable with cavern, gets around Thalia tax (the matchup it really matters the most) and can double up with the haunt. Also its never dead as it can just pump your team.

I am totally on board with the artifact lands though and would like to make room for a third in my list

Michael Keller

07-18-2017, 03:58 PM

Thanks for your report, I love the exploration you're taking to the archetype, couple points:

Regarding Oath of Scholars, I see the obvious card advantage aspects of the cards and the general appeal, my only problem with it is that it is a non-cavern color-restricted cost which I've found isn't real consistent in the deck and the 4 casting cost just bugs me a bit (salvagers being 4 sometimes is restrictive enough). Just feels to me as a giant daze target. With that being said, I just picked some up on tcgplayer (for like .15 each lol) and will give it a whirl!

You won't regret playing it. Daze is just as applicable to any other card in the deck that doesn't use Cavern. The same can be said for any other CMC=4 card; you can't really use that as a means to not play it. With a deck that accelerates incredibly fast, getting to four mana with LED is very easy - and five isn't much harder.

Sceptor - card disadvantage as it doesn't replace itself, yes I know it synergizes with oath ^ and also LED, which cannot be understated but it just seems like turn 2-3 are crucial for the deck and Mishra's bauble being another slowtrip wouldn't just be better. Again, I haven't played with the Sceptor, just asking the question that is begging to be asked.

Mishra's Bauble and Scepter have two completely functional differences. Gustha's Scepter enables broken turn two plays that Mishra's Bauble cannot. You don't want to be cantripping all the time into Baubles; it's just bad. The deck can have many bad top-decks, because let's face it: it's a Chalice deck. But it can have very strong plays, and this card is much more intrinsically powerful than a Bauble on turn one or two when you want to A.) protect your key cog in the wake of a lead-off discard spell, and B.) enable it in conjunction with LED to blow the game open on turn two.

I think if you're going blue splash and playing trinket mage then Thoughtcast is the better card to play for card advantage.

I've tried Thoughtcast and found it to be decent. I just think Oath synergizes better with the deck holistically. Thoughtcast is fine, but with cards that find themselves in the graveyard quickly (Baubles, LEDs, etc.), it can be awkward at times. I like the card, don't get me wrong, I just think Oath has more power and sustainability over the course of the mid to late game.

I think playing less than 4 walking ballista is a mistake plain and simple. Our worst matchup is D&T and ballista is absolutely a HOUSE in that matchup. Also it keeps delvers at bay and just grows out of control quickly which helps in matches where plan A and B have been hated out.

I had four in the sixty, but wasn't impressed. With Trinket Mage, you have an additional body. Death and Taxes can be addressed in the sideboard if it needs to be; I just feel that having three main and access to finding it two other ways is sufficient.

I very much prefer the black splash with Bob as it allows for an uncounterable card advantage engine (its pretty tough to lose when you play a T1 Bob). Also, it may seem negligible but being able to play Pontiff in the sb over holy light is a huge boon. It can be uncounterable with cavern, gets around Thalia tax (the matchup it really matters the most) and can double up with the haunt. Also its never dead as it can just pump your team.

Holy Light has instant-speed applicability where Pontiff doesn't. The Cavern bonus is nice, but really what match-up are you bringing it in against where you already have Cavern to make your Salvagers and Mentors uncounterable? Pontiff can't stop a swarm of Empty the Warrens when you draw off a Bauble in your opponent's upkeep and they're ready to swing for lethal that turn. Holy Light can do that, and can also stop Elves dead in its tracks as it tries to combo off. The same can be said for Infect at EOT, and other decks that rely on x/1 creatures.

Honestly - it's not a card I want to tap mana for in my main phase.

Dark Confidant would be great in this deck, no doubt. He's a card that is worth a slot, but changing and tweaking the mana base to support black is a whole other discussion. I don't think it's worth it, personally.

Capi5681

07-18-2017, 04:30 PM

I will definitely be trying Oath and Sceptor my next time playing the deck though, the synergies are tantalizing I will admit...

My next tournament with the deck won't be until 7/30 unfortunately but hopefully you get another one in before then and can report back?

Is Inventor's Fair worth it? I get the appeal just don't think its necessary especially in a Trinket Mage build

I think you're better off with a Tundra in that spot

Michael Keller

07-18-2017, 05:39 PM

Just keep in mind that this is still a Chalice deck, so it's got the ability to get incredibly powerful starts, and also duds. The key is making the deck sustainable and redundant.

Michael Keller

07-18-2017, 11:32 PM

Here's a game-state from a little while ago. Turn-two kill enabled off Gustha's Scepter (after getting Wastelanded):

http://i.imgur.com/mYvZTLR.jpg

(Tap Opal, play Tomb, tap Tomb, sacrifice LED for WWW: six mana total. Tap the Scepter to bring back Salvagers, make a million Monks and punch through with two that are active against one Deathrite. GG.)

Capi5681

07-19-2017, 09:31 AM

Is the miser's Mox Diamond just there mainly to get extra lands out of your hand for Oath?

Michael Keller

07-19-2017, 09:36 AM

It's just an acceleration hedge with the other rocks. It has synergy in that regard with Oath, which is nice.

I've been tinkering with a list that is more streamlined:

// 60 Maindeck
// 26 Artifact
4 Mox Opal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Lodestone Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Gustha's Scepter

// 12 Creature
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Walking Ballista
4 Monastery Mentor

// 4 Enchantment
4 Oath of Scholars

// 18 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Den
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Seat of the Synod

// 15 Sideboard
// 6 Artifact
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Zuran Orb
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Gustha's Scepter

// 4 Creature
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre

// 3 Enchantment
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity

// 2 Instant
SB: 2 Holy Light

procobrito

07-19-2017, 02:42 PM

Michael Keller

07-20-2017, 12:51 AM

Attack your opponent and make Monks. Engineered Explosives on 0 (CMC=2, Sunburst=0) is another way. I don't see Chalice decks locally, so my sideboard can be tweaked if I suspect it.

sco0ter

07-20-2017, 04:50 PM

07-21-2017, 07:36 AM

What's the general opinion on the Gifts Ungiven approach (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23541&iddeck=183110)?

A Gifts package of

Unburial Rites
Lion's Eye Diamond
Auriok Salvagers
Walking Ballista

should win the game, doesn't it? The worst case is if you get LED into your graveyard, so you need 6 mana to combo off, but nonetheless it seems reliable.

Wouldn't the "worst case" be them giving you Rites and Ballista? In that case it would cost you 7 to win, 5 to cast Rites to get Slvagers, 2 to activate and go off with LED.

sco0ter

07-21-2017, 10:17 AM

Wouldn't the "worst case" be them giving you Rites and Ballista? In that case it would cost you 7 to win, 5 to cast Rites to get Slvagers, 2 to activate and go off with LED.

Yes absolutely correct. Too expensive? I find the Gifts list very interesting nonetheless.

07-21-2017, 11:53 AM

Yes absolutely correct. Too expensive? I find the Gifts list very interesting nonetheless.

Probably? I don't know, maybe, because you play have to play a 4 CC card, then a 5. Daze and Wasteland could be an issue.

I was just making sure I understood correctly.

cris_rj

07-21-2017, 12:35 PM

Michael Keller

07-21-2017, 12:55 PM

I'm tinkering around with a bunch of different lists. I don't have a concrete sideboard plan at this point because I'm still discerning how the deck operates without cards in the starting lineup.

I will, however, never play Probe in this archetype again.

Capi5681

07-22-2017, 05:16 PM

grover1522

07-22-2017, 08:23 PM

Bomberman was on stream in the SCG event. Crushed D&T in two quick games. No combo kill, but Monastery Mentor on turn one is still good enough.

Michael Keller

07-22-2017, 09:45 PM

I stand by the fact that this is a stompy deck first and foremost and you just want to keep gas flowing so playing the sceptors and all that non-sense is going the opposite direction than what you want to be doing. If you try and play the long-game against any deck in legacy with this deck you will often find yourself coming up short. Play a T1 or 2 mentor or T3 combo is how you are winning with this deck. Can you win with the Oath and the sceptor "cutesy" stuff, sure. I don't see that being a consistent option or being a streamlined version of the deck though.

It's really not cutesy. The deck has no intrinsic late-game sustainability as you cantrip through rocks and hope to hit a combo piece. A card like Oath gives the deck a huge swing, and can certainly afford to with the extra mana floating around. Emptying your hand and getting a key cog like Salvagers knocked out is absolutely terrible. If you want to keep the deck glass cannon, by all means do so. The argument is that you're implying these cards force the deck to "try" to play the late game - but you're not: they're a compliment. The entire deck is predicated on effectively dumping its hand and hoping for the best. You can't have sustainability over the course of a fifteen-round tournament like that without some way to bolster the overall strategy. The deck has no true mid to late-game "bombs," per say, even though it's called "Bomberman."

In the slots where Gitaxian Probe once occupied, now Oaths do. The two other flex spots right now for me are Scepter. That may change, but until I see evidence otherwise - that's all anecdotal. The existing iterations of the deck parallel it to Clubber Lang from "Rocky III": it comes out of the gate with full force, but doesn't have the stamina to pick it up later after it depletes itself. I injected a little "Rocky IV" into the deck and gave it some Drago-infused 2000 PSI punching-power. (Okay, so a little over-dramatic. But I'm a little wasted and that's fine by me.)

EDIT: Scepter is a card that will help you not only win games earlier than expected, it protects your hand when you can't cast something like a Salvagers on turn one. With chaff like Lodestone Bauble serving as an unorthodox win condition, I fail to see how a card that can synergize so well with the deck - at zero mana, no less - is not even worthy of a flex slot.

Michael Keller

07-23-2017, 09:15 PM

Thoughts on this list:

// [Legacy] Bomberman
// 60 Maindeck
// 25 Artifact
4 Mox Opal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Lodestone Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Gustha's Scepter

// 12 Creature
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Walking Ballista
4 Monastery Mentor

// 4 Instant
4 Thirst for Knowledge

// 19 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Ancient Den
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Seat of the Synod
2 Tundra
1 Academy Ruins

// 15 Sideboard
// 4 Artifact
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Zuran Orb

// 2 Creature
SB: 2 Containment Priest

// 5 Enchantment
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 2 In the Eye of Chaos

// 2 Instant
SB: 2 Disenchant

// 2 Sorcery
SB: 2 Terminus

cris_rj

07-23-2017, 11:20 PM

Capi5681

07-24-2017, 01:34 PM

It's really not cutesy. The deck has no intrinsic late-game sustainability as you cantrip through rocks and hope to hit a combo piece. A card like Oath gives the deck a huge swing, and can certainly afford to with the extra mana floating around. Emptying your hand and getting a key cog like Salvagers knocked out is absolutely terrible. If you want to keep the deck glass cannon, by all means do so. The argument is that you're implying these cards force the deck to "try" to play the late game - but you're not: they're a compliment. The entire deck is predicated on effectively dumping its hand and hoping for the best. You can't have sustainability over the course of a fifteen-round tournament like that without some way to bolster the overall strategy. The deck has no true mid to late-game "bombs," per say, even though it's called "Bomberman."

In the slots where Gitaxian Probe once occupied, now Oaths do. The two other flex spots right now for me are Scepter. That may change, but until I see evidence otherwise - that's all anecdotal. The existing iterations of the deck parallel it to Clubber Lang from "Rocky III": it comes out of the gate with full force, but doesn't have the stamina to pick it up later after it depletes itself. I injected a little "Rocky IV" into the deck and gave it some Drago-infused 2000 PSI punching-power. (Okay, so a little over-dramatic. But I'm a little wasted and that's fine by me.)

EDIT: Scepter is a card that will help you not only win games earlier than expected, it protects your hand when you can't cast something like a Salvagers on turn one. With chaff like Lodestone Bauble serving as an unorthodox win condition, I fail to see how a card that can synergize so well with the deck - at zero mana, no less - is not even worthy of a flex slot.

The deck doesn't need late-game sustainability on that level. It has a value plan of salvagers re-buying baubles for extra cards but if you're at the point in the game where you're on that plan either you are very far ahead or very far behind anyway. Mono-red sneak attack, Colorless Eldrazi - these are the same "type" of deck as Chalice Stompy Bomberman. Its a stompy deck. It wants to play a T1 or 2 chalice or threat and win by T3 (often by shear board presence). Also since we don't play brainstorm and have zero card "selection" to speak of. You must cycle through as many baubles as possible to keep any sort of consistency from game to game. I play 10 baubles - 4 Mishra, 4 urza, 2 lodestone as bauble is never a bad draw to just dig yourself deeper and find mentor or combo. That is also why I think Bob (if you're Wb) or Thoughtcast/Thirst (if you're Wu) is so crucial as it keeps the gas flowing in those crucial early turns.

I think we are trying to accomplish different things with our differences of the deck.

Michael Keller

07-24-2017, 03:13 PM

Agreed. The core of the deck is essentially fine; there's no need to adjust the primary architecture. The key is how we want to touch up the exterior with cards that augment the overall strategy. Dark Confidant, Thoughtcast or Oath: they all do essentially the same things and have their respective advantages and disadvantages.

In my opinion - and I've seen this time and time again for who knows how many years - combo decks like this lose late-game sustainability. I don't think that's a bad thing, because it's essentially how the deck functions, but it's not something that can't be tweaked. This is not a Brainstorm deck, so the key is maximizing draws at any given point beyond turn four or five. If it means utilizing three or four slots, that's not going to make or break the deck. Bob is fine if you're on those colors, but I personally prefer UW. I'm not sure if Oath or Thirst is better, but I do know that the deck needs a draw engine outside of cantripping rocks.

ChemicalBurns

07-25-2017, 09:44 PM

I think that's the key to Chalice Bomberman that differentiates itself from other Stompy decks. It has a servicable "lock-and-smash" plan with Chalice into Mentor + go nuts, a combo plan with Salvagers + LED (just like how Mono-Red Sneak is a "lock-and-combo" deck) and it also has the ability to grind out the opponent's resources with Salvagers + Baubles drawing cards. I do think that each colour has a viable card draw engine to supplement the somewhat slow Salvagers + Baubles engine:

Blue
Thoughtcast (requires a shaky mana base, however)
M.Keller's Oath of Scholar's and Thirst for Knowledge

Trinket Mage has also always been an option in these, but is often a little lacklustre.

Black
Dark Confidant is the big and most prominent one here currently.

Red
Imperial Recruiter is not a card advantage engine per se, but allows the deck multiple avenues to get Salvagers which helps both combo and grind routes if needed.

Green
I mean, I guess Sylvan Library?

That being said, Mono-White has a more stable mana base and stronger Metalcraft synergy thanks to being able to play a full set of Ancient Den.

Lots of things to consider, and I like the investigation into newer CA engines. Oath is sweet.

Thoughts on this list:

// [Legacy] Bomberman
// 60 Maindeck
// 25 Artifact
4 Mox Opal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Lodestone Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Gustha's Scepter

// 12 Creature
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Walking Ballista
4 Monastery Mentor

// 4 Instant
4 Thirst for Knowledge

// 19 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Ancient Den
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Seat of the Synod
2 Tundra
1 Academy Ruins

// 15 Sideboard
// 4 Artifact
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Zuran Orb

// 2 Creature
SB: 2 Containment Priest

// 5 Enchantment
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 2 In the Eye of Chaos

// 2 Instant
SB: 2 Disenchant

// 2 Sorcery
SB: 2 Terminus

This looks exciting and Thirst may be something to investigate further - Thoughtcast has been neat, but making the mana so clunky I've not been a fan of. Then again, the mana base of this list looks a little ambitious too - how has it felt? I'd sooner like a Fair over the Ruins tbh.

I like the idea of Scepter and may give it a shot next time I'm on the deck. As aforementioned, it looks great vs. discard which I've actually been having trouble with.

mistercakes

07-25-2017, 11:18 PM

I understand that oath and thirst are both very good in the context here, but why isn't jace in here? This is a deck that can go turn 1 jace/turn 2 jace very easily.

I would recommend 3 jace, and maybe 1 tezzeret the seeker. It's very possible 4 jace is just correct.

Quick edit. The deck would likely want to go back to a fetch mana base to ensure you can reliably get double blue from lands more easily, but that seems worth it.

I created a deck a bunch of years ago called planeswalker stax. (it's on the source somewhere) The deck started out with 2 or 3 jace and ended up with 4 jace 4 tezz (aob). I feel like this deck is doing similar things.

Xod

07-28-2017, 03:47 AM

8bit9mm

07-28-2017, 10:33 AM

screwed one game over myself due to bad mulliganing/sideboarding (it's true, the deck mulligans bad).

I've found the same to be very true. It's a rough spot to be in where you need to rely on your baubles to dig you out of a bad hand. Sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesn't.

I've been playing the Imperial variant (red splash) and found that Recruiter is great at getting you out of tight spots (also I feel red has the most to offer for the SB), but Bobby seems so busted in this deck. I may have to work on picking up Bobs and Scrubs to try it out.

cris_rj

07-29-2017, 08:09 PM

Hit 4-0 yesterday with the Wb build at our montly league, played the following list:

4 Walking Balista
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Dark Confidant

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Lodestone Bauble

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Traitors
2 Ancient Den
2 Scrubland
2 Plains
2 Windswepth Heath

Sideboard

2 Disenchant
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Orzhov Pontiff

Really happy with the deck and the sideboard. Played last Sunday as well in a bigger event, went 3-3, screwed one game over myself due to bad mulliganing/sideboarding (it's true, the deck mulligans bad) was still writing a report, but very busy at work at the moment, it will come.

Have some questions about this list. What is the game plan by using Orzhov Pontiff in sideboard ?

Why using tomod's crypt in place of leyline of the void ? I mean people are playing th b/r reanimator version that has turn 0/1 grisebrand and hand disruption, that bean said, when playing tormod's crypt the chance of having a griselbrand in table is 60-100%.

Mr. Headshot

07-30-2017, 07:53 AM

Have some questions about this list. What is the game plan by using Orzhov Pontiff in sideboard ?

Why using tomod's crypt in place of leyline of the void ? I mean people are playing th b/r reanimator version that has turn 0/1 grisebrand and hand disruption, that bean said, when playing tormod's crypt the chance of having a griselbrand in table is 60-100%.

Concerning tormods crypt: It is immediately on the table (metalcraft). It has zero mana cost. (Datk confidant). Most important the deck works with a lot of replacement effects. So they chance of drawing into one during the game is greater than in another deck.

Nevertheless i think leyline is stronger in that particular matchup, but perhaps not in this deck.

Capi5681

07-30-2017, 10:45 PM

So I took my list (couple posts above - Wb with bobs) to a 5 round win-a-sea event today at my LGS for a perfect 4-0 draw into top-8 and clean sweep through the top-8 for the win! My fourth underground sea, not really quite sure what to do with it lol

R1 vs. BR Reanimator 2-1

so he had no idea what I was playing after I lead off with scrubland into windswept heath, I had the city of traitors and combo in hand as he takes his turn 3 (he already had a griselbrand in play, I don't really care much) but he drops tidespout tyrant bounces a land and then thoughtseizes which I scoop to so he still doesnt know what Im playing.
G2 he resolves another early griselbrand but I dont care and combo him anyway a couple turns later. G3 karakas bought me some time while ballista and mentor beatdown with a team of monks even through his grave titan and sea of zombies.

R2 vs. BR Reanimator (w/sb show & tell) 2-1

I won a lot of games today with a griselbrand in play for my opponents. This G1 was insane. Im on the play and play mentor w/2 monk triggers. He T1 entombs petal reanimate a griselbrand. T2 I play salvagers, LED and make infinite prowess triggers and win! G2 he gets an archon onboard and reanimates a fallen mentor and beats me down with my own monks :(. G3 combo after my opponent resolves a griselbrand, yet again.

R3 vs. Grixis delver 2-0

This was an absolute beating. Auriok salvagers is a complete house in this MU and pre-board he just cannot kill it once resolved and it just grinds him out as I keep rebuying ballista and shooting down delvers and DRSs. G2 he scooped quickly after a chalice on 1 T1. I felt comfortable running it out there as I had the T2 backup of mentor + a couple baubles if he used a force on the chalice.

R4 vs. "Miracles" 2-0

This match was all about Dark Confidant and Cavern of Souls. G1 I just grinded him out, yes I grinded out my UW control opponent as I played Bob after Bob after he kept dealing with them. Overall I think I drew an extra 5 cards this game alone. G2 I have a chalice on 1 and 2 and "half" combo and draw 40 cards on his upkeep, he concedes before I untap. Again, cavern of souls is the all-star in this MU.

R5 intentional draw into top seed in the top 8

Quarterfinals vs. UB Reanimator 2-1

Much harder reanimator MU as they have force of will but I combo G1 after it seemed like I was down and out with a relatively low amount of resources. With a cavern and LED in play already I draw salvagers and combo eventually. Lose G2 to a T1 Iona on white. G3 combo out of nowhere for the win

Semifinals vs. Miracles (different player) 2-1

I don't remember any of these matches super specifically (as you can see, sorry about that) but this game was the longest and hardest of the night. Early game I have a turn where I get in with 7 or 9 or so with mentor then bobs beatdown a little and get my opponent pretty low as he had a karakas and venser going and us both playing off the top of the deck. He has already gone through 2 jaces. I finally draw the salvagers and have no LED but more than enough mana to get the ballista in my GY and play it for the 3 or 4 necessary to finish him off.
G2 he "back to basics" me and then Jace on empty board and thats it.
G3 I chalice on t1 on the play and he kept a hand of surgical (not very good), 2 ponder and a swords.... he scoops a couple turns later

Finals vs. Grixis pyromancer (delverless) 2-0

Maybe the easiest MU of the night? G1 on the play (#1 seed, modified play/draw rule) I T1 bob off cavern, petal and he lives a couple turns. I actually get blown out by a K command on my mentor and mox opal and STILL manage to out attrition him as auriok salvagers (uncounterable with cavern) just runs away with the game buying back baubles and ballistas)
G2 an early chalice + salvagers combo (no wincon) drawing my 40 cards in opponents upkeep gets me the win and the Underground Sea!

This deck is awesome, definitely because of the element of surprise but even after people were watching my matches and then I would play them they still were baffled and amazed at the value and attrition game the deck can play. In my opinion this is the best version of the deck and I have tuned it quite a bit and am happy with every card in my 75.

A couple specific card choices people are curios about:
Bob - just play bob people, he's the best and a T1 uncounterable Bob will win you the game everytime (or at least it feels that way lol)
10 baubles, including mishra's bauble - really though, mid-late game the baubles are some of your best draws, why the fuck would you not play them?!
Walking ballista - shoots shit down, play all 4 you need them against thalias and delvers and revokers and such!
4 mox opal, 2 ancient den - I think the full set of Moxes are necessary to play T1 bobs and chalices consistently and I have found the 2 artifact lands give me just enough metalcraft consistency
the fetch lands - we play mishra's bauble why wouldnt we play fetch lands if we could? also its nice to be able to lead off with a fetch to avoid wasteland, you know just all the usual reasons fetchlands are great

sb:
Pontiff - really good (and uncounterable with cavern) to get rid of true-names, thalias and other D&T weeny creatures, young peezy and his minions, revokers, need I say more? Also it can just buff your team if none of the above is applicable!
tormod's crypt - was awesome for me as it allowed me some breathing room against miracles, I never got snapcastered today
Karakas was also a great 1-of in the sb and won me at least 1 game against reanimator

FYI I didnt play ethersworn canonist in my sb today, played the karakas and 1 extra tormod's crypt

EDIT: totally forgot to mention containment priest was OP in my reanimator matchups and drawing it absolutely was a big part of my success on the day

Xod

07-31-2017, 02:44 AM

Im on the play and play mentor w/2 monk triggers. He T1 entombs petal reanimate a griselbrand. T2 I play salvagers, LED and make infinite prowess triggers and win!

I did the similar thing, only my opponent had a turn 1 Emrakul. :cool:

FYI I didnt play ethersworn canonist in my sb today, played the karakas and 1 extra tormod's crypt

I know the reason, but I find it hard to cut the canonist. It certainly helped me stall my TES opponent long enough for me to win.

Capi5681

07-31-2017, 09:27 AM

I did the similar thing, only my opponent had a turn 1 Emrakul. :cool:

I know the reason, but I find it hard to cut the canonist. It certainly helped me stall my TES opponent long enough for me to win.

What's your list looking like currently Xod? Canonist is definitely strong against storm I just rely on GY interaction (I understand doesn't apply vs. TES) in the form of Tormod's Crypt which I'll be honest I was medium on until I found myself siding it in every "Miracles" matchup and I swear my opponents did not cast a single snapcaster + plow on me all day! Considering we have relatively few impact creatures, slogging through 4 plows is sometimes tough enough in that matchup so I really wanted to hedge against the snap+plow as much as possible and I'll say it worked nicely!

07-31-2017, 09:48 AM

I like that Wb list, but no way am I spending 80+ dollars on Mishra's Baubles, :cry:

Capi5681

07-31-2017, 09:58 AM

I like that Wb list, but no way am I spending 80+ dollars on Mishra's Baubles, :cry:

http://shop.tcgplayer.com/magic/coldsnap/mishras-bauble

They're like $20-30 USD/ea. Compared to LED's, Opals and such they're only a minor cost of the deck. No one ever said this was a budget deck lol

DrDiabetes

07-31-2017, 11:55 AM

Capi5681

07-31-2017, 12:57 PM

I've been testing the RW and BW lists, and from what I can tell, the BW is far more consistent than the RW. Yes, they're different, but have the same idea. I have been considering splashing a plateau and Nahiri in the BW version. Does this sound reasonable, or am I just a rookie?

sounds reasonable ya, I like the fact that it cleans up any pesky enchantments (ie rest in peace) that may be of annoyance

as far as ease of casting I would say it shouldn't be too hard just not sure which land I would cut, possibly a basic plains

DrDiabetes

07-31-2017, 02:06 PM

I'll show my list when I'm not at work, and what I was planning on cutting. I personally am not a fan of city of traitors. I find myself more in need of having a colored land, like ancient den.

Capi5681

07-31-2017, 02:09 PM

I'll show my list when I'm not at work, and what I was planning on cutting. I personally am not a fan of city of traitors. I find myself more in need of having a colored land, like ancient den.

1-2 city of traitors are necessary to maintain a semi-consistent T1 chalice or mentor. Also it allows for more T2 kills. Its also great when you are on the ballista beatdown plan and is your best land in this scenario to painlessly pump it

DrDiabetes

07-31-2017, 05:10 PM

I'm currently running:

Artifacts - 26
4 - Chalice of the Void
4 - Lion's Eye Diamond
2 - Lodestone Bauble
4 - Mishra's Bauble
4 - Mox Opal
4 - Urza's Bauble

Creature - 16
4 - Auriok Salvagers
4 - Dark Confidant
4 - Monastery Mentor
4 - Walking Ballista

Land - 18
2 - Ancient Den
4 - Ancient Tomb
4 - Cavern of Souls
1 - Karakas
2 - Plains
3 - Scrubland
2 - Windswept Heath

The Fifteen:

Artifacts: 5
2 - Engineered Explosives
3 - Tormods Crypt

Creature: 4
2 - Containment Priest
2 - Ethersworn Canonist

Instant: 5
2 - Disenchant
3 - Swords to Plowshares

Land: 1
1 - Karakas

If I was to play a single mainboard Nahiri, I'd make the following edits:
-1 Walking Ballista
-1 Scrubland

+1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
+1 Plateau

I'm running ancient dens because I've been in the habit of cracking/playing my baubles early, and my metalcraft count is low. Yes, getting hosed by null rod is the worst, but my wins are still consistent with this brew. If I was to put city of traitors back in, what would you guys cut?

Capi5681

07-31-2017, 06:05 PM

I'm currently running:

If I was to play a single mainboard Nahiri, I'd make the following edits:
-1 Walking Ballista
-1 Scrubland

+1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
+1 Plateau

I'm running ancient dens because I've been in the habit of cracking/playing my baubles early, and my metalcraft count is low. Yes, getting hosed by null rod is the worst, but my wins are still consistent with this brew. If I was to put city of traitors back in, what would you guys cut?

I would shave a single lodestone bauble instead of the walking ballista but thats just my opinion. Walking ballista is pretty crucial and is what really gives you an advantage over delver and helps you hang in there against D&T (Thalia X_x)

but I would trim the karakas main or a basic plains to add a city back in (at least one)

Xod

08-01-2017, 03:48 AM

What's your list looking like currently Xod?

The one posted in the 4-0 league game, on this page.

ChemicalBurns

08-01-2017, 08:04 AM

Capi5681

08-01-2017, 09:24 AM

@DrDiabetes

I'd recommend against the third colour splash, and I don't think Nahiri is worth splashing for anyway. I always think of her as a "fifth" Salvagers to increase the decks ability to grind/is a wincon. But with Bob, I think she's unnecessary. The mana is shakier than it looks too! If anything, Imperial Recruiter is more reasonable because he's castable off Cavern, but then you have too many creatures and not enough of a balance of non-creatures to trigger Mentor.

I don't think MD Karakas is super necessary. I'd sooner replace that with a City or a Inventors' Fair. I find myself umming and erring between zero, 1 or 2 Cities, and honestly I feel like the proper number is 1.5. What I like for Wb is a mana base like this:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Ancient Den
2 Windswept Heath
2 Scrubland
2 Plains
1 City of Traitors
1 Inventors' Fair

Fair gives a nice payoff for running Dens.

Speaking about Dens, how do people feel about the two Dens? Are they doing enough for Metalcraft purposes?

For all of you running Disenchant, consider Seal of Cleansing so that when you are on Mentor beatdown you can still get Prowess triggers without needing a target.

Also, concerning Crypt, it's great. Turns on Metalcraft, loopable with Salvagers, triggers Mentor. It often feels like extra Urza's/Mishra's Baubles in matchups that matter. That being said, not sure if I'd bring them vs. Miracles.

Ya I think your concerns about 3c above are spot on considering Nahiri wouldn't also be castable off of the caverns. Your Wb sample manabase is good I still prefer the more consistency with the second City. I've played inventors fair before and wasn't impressed but I think it has its merits.

I have found the two ancient den to be perfect. While two cards in a 60 card deck without any selection effects doesn't seem like it would make much of a difference, what it really does is increase your T1 artifact count to 24 (T1 artifacts don't include ballista or chalice) to boost your population density and ensure metalcraft to really pay us off for playing the full set of Opals which I think is one of the most broken cards you can play (there's a reason the moxen are the most powerful cards in the history of the game). I don't have any statistic driven data to back my claims (where's Frank Karsten when you need him?!) but for me I've had it payoff a couple of times in a given tournament and that's good enough for me!

Totally agree about seal of cleansing, honestly I think I just didn't have any laying around at the time. Will definitely be making that change going forward.

So lastly, about siding in the tormod's crypts against miracles, here me out here - so my sb for that matchup is essentially... well nothing. I have a couple things I want to take out knowing that we are playing a somewhat longer game - 1 lodestone Bauble (I always trim 1 after game 1 but need to leave in one in case of ballista surgical), 1 Mox opal on the draw (game tends to go long, I keep in all 4 on the play to make sure I can play a T1 Bob if applicable), on the play I think I kept in the 4th Opal and shaved 1 ballista instead. So I wanted to bring in the Crypts because the way I lose this game is to get grinded into the dust with removal, ensuring that I only get 1-1'd with terminus and not getting plowed 8 times is how I planned on winning and not getting plowed more than 4 times meant I needed GY hate for snappy and it worked like a charm. It may seem like a corner case but our deck isn't exactly threat heavy and an EoT snap plow on a mentor untap play a Jace with a blocker is devastating, I just wanted to make sure that didn't happen and in two matches against Miracles it did not and I won both. My opponents both games said they had snapcasters rotting in their hand waiting to be an ambush viper (which I did not give them that chance to ambush my bobs).

I love all the renewed interest in the deck and the traffic in this thread now since I made the reddit post! Keep the ideas flowing peeps, Long live Bomberman! (and Bob!!)

ChemicalBurns

08-02-2017, 08:42 AM

Ya I think your concerns about 3c above are spot on considering Nahiri wouldn't also be castable off of the caverns. Your Wb sample manabase is good I still prefer the more consistency with the second City. I've played inventors fair before and wasn't impressed but I think it has its merits.

I have found the two ancient den to be perfect. While two cards in a 60 card deck without any selection effects doesn't seem like it would make much of a difference, what it really does is increase your T1 artifact count to 24 (T1 artifacts don't include ballista or chalice) to boost your population density and ensure metalcraft to really pay us off for playing the full set of Opals which I think is one of the most broken cards you can play (there's a reason the moxen are the most powerful cards in the history of the game). I don't have any statistic driven data to back my claims (where's Frank Karsten when you need him?!) but for me I've had it payoff a couple of times in a given tournament and that's good enough for me!

Totally agree about seal of cleansing, honestly I think I just didn't have any laying around at the time. Will definitely be making that change going forward.

So lastly, about siding in the tormod's crypts against miracles, here me out here - so my sb for that matchup is essentially... well nothing. I have a couple things I want to take out knowing that we are playing a somewhat longer game - 1 lodestone Bauble (I always trim 1 after game 1 but need to leave in one in case of ballista surgical), 1 Mox opal on the draw (game tends to go long, I keep in all 4 on the play to make sure I can play a T1 Bob if applicable), on the play I think I kept in the 4th Opal and shaved 1 ballista instead. So I wanted to bring in the Crypts because the way I lose this game is to get grinded into the dust with removal, ensuring that I only get 1-1'd with terminus and not getting plowed 8 times is how I planned on winning and not getting plowed more than 4 times meant I needed GY hate for snappy and it worked like a charm. It may seem like a corner case but our deck isn't exactly threat heavy and an EoT snap plow on a mentor untap play a Jace with a blocker is devastating, I just wanted to make sure that didn't happen and in two matches against Miracles it did not and I won both. My opponents both games said they had snapcasters rotting in their hand waiting to be an ambush viper (which I did not give them that chance to ambush my bobs).

I love all the renewed interest in the deck and the traffic in this thread now since I made the reddit post! Keep the ideas flowing peeps, Long live Bomberman! (and Bob!!)

All good points about Crypt man. I'm used to having a sideboard bomb like Gideon or Nahiri to bring and have leaned on these plus Explosives, but what you've said makes tonnes of sense.

Good to hear the two Dens are working out! I guess the Fairs' are up to preference.

And yeah good job on crushing and getting the deck more and more exposure! Pretty sure after all the streamers picking it up, it being in SCG coverage and you nailing it we'll see more interest, tuning and innovation to come. :)

Capi5681

08-02-2017, 11:40 AM

And yeah good job on crushing and getting the deck more and more exposure! Pretty sure after all the streamers picking it up, it being in SCG coverage and you nailing it we'll see more interest, tuning and innovation to come. :)

Thanks! btw I appreciate all of your content, I always look forward to your weekly legacy article on goldfish.

What streams have had it played? I saw Calebs stream with it like a month back and Anuraag attempted to play it during a legacy challenge (was tough to watch honestly). Anything else I'm missing?

whienot

08-02-2017, 12:40 PM

What streams have had it played? I saw Calebs stream with it like a month back and Anuraag attempted to play it during a legacy challenge (was tough to watch honestly). Anything else I'm missing?

There is one match from the SCGATL team event (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/161179235?t=03h22m01s)

What a beating.

Capi5681

08-02-2017, 01:23 PM

There is one match from the SCGATL team event (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/161179235?t=03h22m01s)

What a beating.

ah ya I saw that too, that was awesome and against a top-tier deck as well!

Wilkin

08-02-2017, 08:13 PM

DrDiabetes

08-02-2017, 09:38 PM

Inventors fair doesnt seem that bad. The life gain is irrelevant 75% of the time, but sac'ing it to find LED? That doesnt sound too bad either, though I'm running 2 Karakas', one main and one side. I'm saving up to buy in paper, and preparing for what's in my area.

AceOfJacks

08-03-2017, 02:21 AM

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/aer/91.jpg

Has this card been considered at all, or is this not impactful enough? I think it might be decent as a way to turn Baubles into Bolts, which puts pressure on opponents in longer games.

Capi5681

08-03-2017, 08:31 AM

Hi there. This deck has become my secondary deck. Just tried it out and I'm liking it. Here's my list....I have no Mishra's Baubles atm. Which is why you don't see them there.

4 Walking Ballista
4 Dark Confidant
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Auriok Salvagers

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
4 Urza's Bauble
1 Lodestone Bauble
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Unexpectedly Absent (a lot of lands players where I am, especially where I am testing this deck out, no Wonder I can't find a Tabernacle)

4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Scrubland
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Inventor's Fair
2 Ancient Den
4 Cavern of Souls

Sideboard
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Cast out
1 Selfless Squire
1 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Disenchant
1 Blessed Alliance
2 Pithing Needle

Notes: I tried list with and without Ancient Den and it's very key in gaining early Metalcraft. Playing Deadguy Ale, I already know the awesomeness of playing turn 1 Dark Confidant.
-Going to be getting Mishra's Baubles for sure. Not sure if I can find a spot for 4 of them
-I'm going to have to remember I can still get rid of an opposing Chalice on 0 with Explosives by only paying colorless mana for it. Found out playing Eldrazi and game 2 and 3 vs lands, that Chalice on zero is super annoying.
-went with Leyline of the void/helm combo as another win con. You know, a plan c. I've killed one game with Helm and another with Salvagers combo. lol.
-the one Inventor's Fair has been really good in finding the missing piece I need to win.
-my version does play a lot of lands. I find hands to be very awkward, especially in terms of even being able to cast anything relevant. I tried 19 lands (and no Ancient Dens) and found myself mana screwed often. Now by going to 20 lands, with 2 of them Ancient Den (and therefore, should be able to turn on Mox Opal a little better), i'm hoping it's better. Deck doesn't mulligan well from my testing.
-Blessed Alliance was great. I do have a ton of Dark Depths and Lands decks so having a way to deal with Marit Lage is crucial. Plus, the added bonus of gaining life is nice.

Once you get your Misrha's baubles you can go back down to 18 lands as essentially you add more air to your deck and will find your lands faster. I find that most opening hands look the same with mulligans not being super obvious as even a no lander could be a fine keep depending on play/draw and the other cards in your hand

Not sure how I feel about unexpectedly absent in the md. I see it being inconsistent to cast and a unnecessary defensive card G1. If you are tuning your deck to be good in the local FNM meta because of lots of other chalice stompy decks that make you cold to chalice=0 then going up to 2 explosives would be your better

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/aer/91.jpg

Has this card been considered at all, or is this not impactful enough? I think it might be decent as a way to turn Baubles into Bolts, which puts pressure on opponents in longer games.

Well its not really turning baubles into bolts because a bolt to the face isn't as effective as a bolt that can tag delvers, DRS or Thalias.

a) I would imagine this being inconsistent to cast (while the deck does have a one color splash off white, the splash still relies on the "human" subtype to work nicely with cavern)
b) taking your T2 to play this over a mentor/bob or something else seems bad. You really need to be adding to the board every turn in legacy and I feel like taking a turn off to play a 3-mana enchantment that doesn't win the game is not what you want to be doing.

If I were to play any 3 mana do nothing enchantment in the deck it would be a sb Ghirapur Aether Grid or two but even that, it makes strong matchups (fair creature decks) better which shouldn't be the focus of the sb

Capi5681

08-14-2017, 06:45 PM

Sorry for the double post

So yesterday I got 2nd at our monthly legacy sunday event (win-a-judge flusterstorm)

Not really a tournament report but more of a MU report

R1 vs. Grixis delver (4 young pyro version): 2-0

So in this match I dont like to overboard considering we are already very strong vs. grixis delver. I prefer to just shave some LED (worse part of the combo). This is how I sb:
-1 Mox Opal
-1 Lodestone Bauble
-2 LED
+2 Engineered Explosives
+2 Orzhov Pontiff

R2 vs. odd affinity list: 1-2

unfortunately this match was a total dud. G1 he mulled to 3. G2 was a good game, he had an early chalice on 0 that I dealt with. I had a chance to draw a land in 2 draws to combo and win but didnt and lost to a cranial plated vault skirge. G3 I mulled to 5 and kept a near unkeepable 5. No real sideboard notes here just took out the chalices and brought in all my removal and disenchant effects

R3 vs. Merfolk: 2-1

Won through a chalice on 0 like it was nothing. G3 my opponent had just assembled true-name nemesis + Jitte but I ripped salvagers off the top and combo-ed for the win just in the knick of time!
same sb strat as last match, basically took out chalice and shaved some stuff and added all the removal and disenchant effects also containment priest I think?

R4 vs. Lands: 2-1

Definitely some really good grindy games. Won through a defense grid one of the games and a tabernacle the other.

Top 4 R1 vs. Elves: 2-1

Hilariously easy MU. They dont interact with the combo at all and theyre just too slow and not really doing anything we care about. Also, chalice on 1 is even better than usual!

Top 4 R2 vs. Lands (same player): 1-2

Combo-ed T1 game1 on the draw that went like this - LED, Mox, Petal, Urza's Bauble; play city of traitors; tap 2 from city, 1 from opal, crack petal to play salvagers. Make infinite mana and draw 40 cards during opponents upkeep. Win on T2. I like to call these T1.5 wins haha
Overall the lands deck did its thing better the other 2 games and I ended up losing

I love this deck. Play it, its fun

Decklist again for ref:

4 auriok salvagers
4 monastery mentor
4 dark confidant
4 walking ballista

4 chalice of the void
4 mishra's bauble
4 urza's bauble
2 lodestone bauble
4 Mox opal
4 lotus petal
4 lion's eye diamond

4 cavern of souls
4 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors
2 ancient den
2 windswept Heath
2 plains
2 scrubland

Sb:
2 orzhov pontiff
2 containment priest
2 engineered explosives
2 disenchant
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 swords to plowshares
3 tormods crypt
1 karakas

aromaticity

08-28-2017, 12:42 PM

Report for a small local tournament where I managed to punt the quarters. List here: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/bw-bomberman-3/

R1 vs. a budget fluctuator deck: 2-0

My opponent came to the tournament basically to check out cool Legacy decks. I think he cast all of one spell in two games. I combo'd quickly both games. Ended up boarding in TKS for a Lodestone Bauble G2 just for kicks and to get more information on what opponent was playing. My opening hands in this match were unfortunately the best I had all tournament.

R2 vs Grixis Delver: 2-1

G1 my opponent is able to bolt my Confidant and Force my Salvagers since I didn't have Cavern. I lose pretty quickly to Angler beats. I ended up with a chance at a really sick Mentor turn on my last turn alive, but unfortunately I was DOB to DRS activations at that point.

I think Grixis Delver is a pretty great matchup because essentially their only relevant card is Force and we have 4x Cavern. Unless they're running Null Rod, they usually only have surgical to stop the combo post-board, which is fairly easy to play around. I ended up boarding out 1x LED 1x Lodestone for 1x EE and 1x Pontiff, I believe. I could board in more removal, but it kind of doesn't feel worth weakening our main plan.

G2 I get sort of lucky because my opponent misplays twice due to unfamiliarity on how the combo works. I think I traded a Ballista for Delver and had a Mentor + token that got answered immediately. My opponent has DRS and Angler. I find another Mentor and can chump for a bit but am soon dead to DRS. I draw into Salvagers + LED the turn before I'm going to die. I play Salvagers and then cast LED and my opponent dismembers my Mentor, mis-remembering how Salvagers worked. They could have also eaten Ballista from my GY with DRS, but only on the first activation. The Mentor token would have given me one more turn but I was pretty dead unless the top of my deck was a second Salvagers.

G3 I don't remember much of other than I combo'd for the win, but this time from a position where I wasn't as far behind.

R3 vs D&T: 1-2

G1 is a long grind fest where I just don't draw enough gas to match my opponent. I T1 Confidant but know my opponent is drawing STP thanks to a Mishra's Bauble. I have a Ballista threatening to take over the game, but my opponent finds a Flickerwisp the turn before it would have wiped his board. He gets to 4x Jitte counters before I can find a Salvager and I scoop.

I side out 4x Chalice, 1x Lodestone, 1x LED and something else for 2x Seal, 2x STP, 1x Cast Out, 1x TKS and 1x EE. I ended up cutting Cast Out after G2 because it's a bit ambitious to cast against them.

G2 I get a quick Mentor, which gets plowed. The second Mentor plus his army of monks gets there fairly quickly.

G3 I end up answering my opponent's first Vial with my opponent stuck on two lands, but they find a second. I know from baubles that they have a Crusader to kill me fast and a Jailer to answer anything I get going. I kept a pretty bad reactive hand which I most certainly should have mulliganed. The game goes on for a long time but I was on the back foot the whole time. Once Crusader connects with Jitte it's over.

R2 vs Grixis Delver: 2-0

This match went much better than the one in R2. I believe I combo'd my opponent quickly in G1 and also had T1 Chalice. G2 I have an unanswered Bob and Ballista. I end up trading my Bob + some Ballista counters with an Angler, which in hindsight I think was a poor play. My opponent is draining me with DRS every turn, and although taking 5 is scary, my ballista is going to be a 5/5, possibly a 6/6, the next turn. Anyway I ended up with another Bob which flipped Mentor to put me in lethal range to DRS, but I was able to kill the DRS and my own Confidant with Ballista and win with it plus Mentor.

I ended up third seed in the T8.

Quarterfinals vs Lands: 1-2

T1 Chalice for 1 shuts off the majority of my opponent's hand, and I kill him a few turns later.

I want to win ASAP here. I ended up cutting 4x Bob and 1x Walking Ballista for 1x Cast Out, 2x Tormod's Crypt and 2x Seal of Cleansing. I think there's a good argument for just not having answers to Sphere of Resistance and keeping some Bobs in over the Seals.

G2 I end up with Chalice on 2 with my opponent having a Molten Vortex, GQ and Mox Diamond. They play a Dark Depths, Gamble and discard the RG cycle land and have one card in hand. In hingsight, them gambling for Stage should have been very, very obvious, especially since they failed to GQ me. On my turn, I had the option of playing a Ballista for 2 or playing Cast Out on their Diamond. Figuring they were short on mana and wanting to play Ballista for 3 against the opposing Vortex, I decided to Cast Out. The big mistake was not using my Urza's Bauble beforehand to confirm that their one card in hand was Stage. The reasoning was that I needed the bauble for Metalcraft, but I drew a Mishra's bauble that turn. I just wasn't thinking clearly here. My opponent plays Stage, draws into a land to activate it and wins since I don't draw exactly Karakas. I feel like I was 99% to win had I kept Cast Out for Lage - my opponent would be down two depths (Diamond) and would only have Diamond and GQ in play with no way to Loam. It's possible I could lose to them waiting and trying to GQ me, but I was drawing into lands and I don't think there's any world where you play around Cast Out. They also showed me in G3 that they were just going to go for it every time, which makes sense.

G3 I mulligan into a somewhat sketchy hand - it has no pressure, but has T1 Chalice on one with a decent shot of a quick Chalice on 2. Unfortunately my T1 land is City of Traitors, so I need to draw into another sol land, a petal or an Opal to chalice on 2 before starting to play my other lands. This causes me to scry a Lodestone Bauble to the bottom - I want to find one of the aforementioned cards ASAP, and I feel like the Lodestone costing 1 to draw might be too slow since I can't crack it T1. Turns out I miss on my first draw anyway, get there on the second and then have Salvagers + LED the turn before I die to Marit Lage but with no baubles or ballista to win with. I think my reasoning for scrying bottom wasn't terrible, but I do think I undervalued having a bauble in my GY.

Going forward I'm excited to test out the version of the deck that was mentioned in this week's This Week in Legacy - a red heavy build with Burning Wish, Imperial Recruiter, Chandra and P&K Nalaar. No Mentors! Seems like it would be better against fair decks as it has less air and more gas, but worse against unfair decks since you don't have a secondary fast wincon in Mentor. Recruiter helps there, tutoring up Salvagers or Ballista.

The TKS in the board replaced a Canonist last minute. The reasoning was that I wanted a higher threat density post-board against some fair matchups. Not sure if it was really worth. It wasn't really relevant against anything I played at this tournament except possibly D&T. I don't want it in vs Grixis because our mainboard plan is plenty solid and I don't want to weaken it too much with sideboard cards.

Mr. Headshot

08-28-2017, 04:08 PM

Congrats for your top8. Very nice report. A pleasure to read! ;-)

Have you tested infernal tutor? I run 2 of them for the moment.

Xod

08-29-2017, 04:17 AM

Hi aromaticity,

I play the same maindeck except an extra ancient den over the karakas (the den helps to much getting mox opal online).

This is my side:
2 Disenchant
2 Containment Priest
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Karakas

Of course, with the Karakas main, you have an extra slot in there. I recently shaved the 2nd Ethersworn to include the karakas. I have some players at my LGS that play TES or ANT, so I always want to be prepared. But now that I'm going to play it at a bigger tournament, I might shave that one off as well.

I saw that you always keep 1 lodestone in the main, were I usually cut, since normally it doesn't make that of a difference. But it makes sense to keep 1 in. (only bite me in the butt once)

Also, this if how I would normally board against Grixis, the plows are dead with CotV on 1, but if you don't land it, or they remove it, you have an immediat answer to YP or Angler (of course WB can also do some work against YP)

+2 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Orzhov Pontiff
-2 Lion’s Eye Diamond
-2 Lodestone Bauble

Might just shave 1 Pontiff and keep 1 lodestone in.

Against Lands, instead of boarding Bob out, I board Walking Balista out. Bob will find answers, WB does not.

Saw that you replaced Disenchants by Seal of Cleansing. Was thinking to find all the cons to use Seal, but found more pro's that I will probably also exchange them.

The cast away, I tried briefly, but moved away from it because you want to board it in frequently and was mostly to do the same job (although worse) that disenchant does. But thinking it through, it might be really good against SnT variants and Land/Depth decks. Plus it's a catch all against troublesome creatures (although the only hatebear I see hitting with it, would be Spirit of the Labyrinth and Thalia, and even then, WB can hit does, and played around it before)

Why did you include it in the deck?

aromaticity

08-29-2017, 11:46 AM

Karakas was main over Den because I knew people were packing Null Rods at the event, so I figured I'd kill two birds with one stone by running Karakas main and freeing up a sideboard slot. I can obvious still just make that swap post-board, though. Boarding into 19 land is also pretty good sometimes, so in general I'd rather have a copy in the board, maybe even the second copy depending on metagame.

Against Grixis I feel like our Combo game is good enough and hard enough to interact with (Force on LED isn't great, obviously) that I didn't really want to trim down to 2 LEDs. Trimming two Lodestones is probably fine, though. I could be underestimating our ability to beat them on the grind plan and perhaps should be boarding a bit more, idk.

I don't think Ballista is super good vs Lands or anything, but I don't want to cut too many combo pieces against them. Basically I used the same reasoning I use vs Reanimator decks and stuff like that: keep as much combo in as possible to race, maybe -1 win condition (usually ballista in these MUs). Cut Confidants because they're slow and replace with hate pieces/anti-hate.

Cast Out is pretty good against Show and Tell decks as you pointed out and against Lands/Turbo Depths. Basically functions as an extra anti-hate pieces and a general removal spell and a hate pieces vs specific decks. Theoretically I could trim down on answers to stuff like Chalice when playing it but tbh we don't have that many great sideboard options anyway. I typically want to be boarding in as little as possible unless 1. we can cut chalice 2. our combo plan isn't good 3. our grind plan is particularly good.

Regarding Infernal Tutor, I plan to test it eventually. Probably will test with 2x but I feel like I wouldn't want more than one.

Capi5681

08-29-2017, 02:38 PM

Hey guys glad to see the conversation kicking back up again!

I have since switched to seals over disenchants in the sb and like them a lot better. Against lands you can get one out pre-defense grid, its nice to be able to play it to enable prowess even without a target, and its nice to get the initial investment out of the way to be able to save the mana for a critical later turn.

My sb is the exact same as Xod (or his is the exact same as mine? hehe) just switching those seals for the disenchants

I have since switched to 1 lodestone bauble / 1 infernal tutor. I did win a game with infernal tutor last weekend but its not like it was game changing or anything. I would never want to go above 1 as drawing multiples is bad bad bad.

I do like to always keep in 1 lodestone bauble post-board especially against grixis as they will often try to surgical your ballista early, even before you could have a salvagers on board to try and double-buy.

Im def not opposed to finding a spot for the Karakas mb but am having a hard time finding room in the tight manabase:

4 cavern
4 tomb
2 city
2 ancient den (I honestly think these are a MUST)
2 plains
2 scrubland
2 fetchland

In my last tournament I played, didn't have the best luck as I lost against UR delver and grixis pyromancer which should be plus matchups but I did continue my streak against UW not-miracles to 4-0. Its crazy as it appears the entire game you are behind on cards and then a cavern of souls just single handedly wins you the game! My miracle opponents claim that it feels like an un-winnable matchup for them, seems a bit far fetched BUT ILL TAKE IT!

So against lands, which I've played against recently, I liked to shave 2 chalice, 1 ballista, 4 Bob and 1 Cavern for:
2 seal of cleansing
2 StP
3 tormod's crypt
1 Karakas

This is my side:
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Containment Priest
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Karakas

Chalice is tricky here, on the play with an aggressive hand play it on 1 to slow down exploration, gamble, crop rot. If your hand is slower or you are on the draw you need to play for the long game and play it on 2! I repeat, PLAY YOUR CHALICE ON 2! You want it to counter Loam, punishing fire, thorn, defense grid, etc.

Keep up the conversation, I love this deck!

Xod

08-30-2017, 05:05 AM

Will probably switch one Pontiff out for an Cast Out (and exchange the Disenchants by Seal of Cleansings)

What I don't get, is siding out Bob's. (unless you are playing against Burn, and even then) He is a threat (although a slow one) that will get you your remaining combo pieces (or more mana to cast them, or baubles to find them faster) or your sideboard pieces. I still think he is the most valuable asset we have in this deck, so I have a very hard time siding him out.

Think of it this way, if he survives one turn, he replaces himself, every turn after that is value. It might sound 'slow' but in this deck going through your deck with Bob and baubles will get you your answers or pieces. Against (non-land) decks, he might eat removal, (if not already protected by CotV) that 1 less removal for Salvagers and/or Mentor.

I do understand not siding out all of your combo pieces, but I think people are underestimating the win with Mentor. Half of the games I win with mentor going bonkers with 1000 tokens. (ok that's part of the combo) sometimes as soon as turn 2 or 3 (turn 2 is mostly a god hand of solland, petal, mentor and a couple of baubles)

Even without the infinite combo, Mentor + Bob, will ALWAYS make the kill. Bob will help you draw baubles or other shenanigans to trigger Mentor and secure the win on grind (or find the combo).

I'll try to post a sideboard list vs most decks, and we can discuss it, (or if somebody has a list like this already for BW Bomberman).

Capi5681

08-30-2017, 09:38 AM

What I don't get, is siding out Bob's. (unless you are playing against Burn, and even then) He is a threat (although a slow one) that will get you your remaining combo pieces (or more mana to cast them, or baubles to find them faster) or your sideboard pieces. I still think he is the most valuable asset we have in this deck, so I have a very hard time siding him out.

Think of it this way, if he survives one turn, he replaces himself, every turn after that is value. It might sound 'slow' but in this deck going through your deck with Bob and baubles will get you your answers or pieces. Against (non-land) decks, he might eat removal, (if not already protected by CotV) that 1 less removal for Salvagers and/or Mentor.

I do understand not siding out all of your combo pieces, but I think people are underestimating the win with Mentor. Half of the games I win with mentor going bonkers with 1000 tokens. (ok that's part of the combo) sometimes as soon as turn 2 or 3 (turn 2 is mostly a god hand of solland, petal, mentor and a couple of baubles)

Even without the infinite combo, Mentor + Bob, will ALWAYS make the kill. Bob will help you draw baubles or other shenanigans to trigger Mentor and secure the win on grind (or find the combo).

I do agree with this in the general sense but you have to think about it at a higher level and just kind of tell yourself its the right move and run with it.

In combo matchups - Storm, Reanimator, Belcher: Bob is an obvious side out as you need combo or mentor to be your T1-3 plays and you just don't have the turn to play Bob.

matchups like Sneak/show and Lands are a bit tricky because they are really combo/control decks and I could see the argument to keep all/some/none of your Bobs post sb depending on your strategy, play/draw, what strategy your opponent is siding into (ie. opponent bringing in blood moon or sweepers?)

I'm not a "shaver" when it comes to sideboarding, I feel that's a trap that too many people fall into when they are afraid to make changes in strategy and instead trim here and trim there, all-the-while weakening the core of their deck. Against lands, where they have punishing fire and other creature taxing effects I would rather just have those 7 cards in my opening hand be the actual cards I need rather than have Bob draw into those cards because you're not winning the long game against Lands 9 times out of 10 once they get their engine going... This is my take and strategy on the matchup (and sideboarding in general), not saying its right.

You also mention sideboarding out a portion of combo and utilizing the mentor plan. This is absolutely true and I think in any non-combo matchup it is often correct to side out some number of LED, an opal (as you're typically lowering your artifact count post-sb) and one of the 5-6 ballista/lodestoneBauble pieces depending on matchup. I win wayyyy more often with mentor/monk beatdown than with combo.

bob2008

09-23-2017, 02:50 PM

Hello Bombers,

After watching Calebs videos I kinda felt in love with this „new“ aproach on bomberman.
So here is my contibution: a short writeup from the MKM-Series in Hamburg last weekend.
I would like to share my impressions of this sweet deck after 9 rounds.

I played wb-bomberman for the first time ever. Got the missing cards a few hours before the tournament started. So my preparation for this event was mostly theory-based. Special thanks to my friend Steffen who helped me to get the missing cards right on time. Due to family and work I did not play a lot of magic the last years so please do not expect a Top-8 report here... Final result was 4:5

list (thx capi5681)

4 auriok salvagers
4 monastery mentor
4 dark confidant
4 walking ballista

4 chalice of the void
4 mishra's bauble
4 urza's bauble
2 lodestone bauble
4 Mox opal
4 lotus petal
4 lion's eye diamond

4 cavern of souls
4 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors
2 ancient den
2 windswept Heath
1 plains
2 scrubland
1 karakas (last minute change, as I expected a lot of SnT)

Sb:

3 containment priest
2 engineered explosives
2 seal of cleansing
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 swords to plowshares
3 tormods crypt
1 Umezawas Jitte

Round 1/ GRIXIS DELVER 0:2

No chalice both games. Fist match T1 BOB (cavern protected) got forked. Early balista and the follow up mentor did some work befor mentor got bolted. My opponent however had a VERY creature heavy draw and finaly managed to overload on my balistas...

SB:
+ 2 plow
-1 L.-Bauble, -1Mox

Game 2 my oponent mulls to 5. I keep 7 - my hand is mostly air + T1 BOB . In retroperspective I should have mulled this I guess. Bob got forced and the redraws from my baubels were not good. He had T1 wasteland but misses on the next landdrops. Due to my lack of pressure he finds his way back in this game and wins on two life (grim lavamancer did some serious work on me here)...

Bad start I guess... This MU should be OK in theory

Round 2 / DEATH AND TAXES 2:0

He had no idea what deck he is up against. Balistas hold him down and mentor just did his thing very quick and dirty in G1.

SB:
+2 plow, +2 EE, +1 Jitte
- 4 Chalice, - 1 dark confidant

Game 2 he starts very good with mother into Thalia and SFM. Karakas showed up and bounced Thalia two times. Like in G1 Mentor + Balista are just too much for his deck. I win the game with 2 plow + 1 EE in hand.

Round 3 / STORM 0:2

Reading Carstens name on the pairings I try to remember which deck is related to him. I had read some articels from him in the good old days but could not remember exactly. Keep a solid hand against anything with creatures ( no chalice ). I immediately regret as it turns out that he (of course) is playing storm. Not much to say about G1

SB:
+ 3 Crypt, +2 Canonist
- 1L.-Bauble, - 4 dark confidant

I keep my 7 with a crypt and a T2 mentor (+ 3 triggers). Playing the crypt on my T1 might have been the wrong move. ANT killing on T1 is not that common and it would have gave one more monk on the following turn. My T3 monk-assault is meet by an abrade (BTW he told me later that he had three copies of that card in hand). On his turn 3 he brainstorms into the nuts and kills me through my crypt with a tutor chain. Carsten was a very nice opponent.

Round 4 / STORM 1:2

G1 he goes of on turn 2 but had some very bad reveals to his nauseam. He correctly stops and kills me on the following turn.

SB:
+3 Crypt, +2 Canonist
- 1 L.Bauble, -4 dark confidant

G2: Keep a hand with canonist and Chalice but no fast mana. Land, go. He probes me, thinks for quite some time and then deciedes to go for ad nauseam with no mana floating and 2 petals used already. His reveals were (again) not great so he stops at low life. T2 Canonist backed up by a chalice on 2 on turn 3 take him down.

G3 I keep my 7 with a turn 1 Salvager + LED. My thoughtprocess was that there was a good chance of drawing „something“ to combo of with. I am not an math expert on but 4 balsita + 9 Baubels ( + hate pieces) seemed like a good chance. He did ponder, shuffel for 2 turns in a row, while i brick on my draws...

I would realy like your guys thoughts on this, would you have keed the T1 infinita mana too? Chances for hitting a balista or bauble were not bad...

Round 5 / TEZZERATOR 1:2

Plains, go. He plays swamp. I kill him Turn 2 with infinite mana and Lodestone bauble.

SB: I have no ide what he is playing, so i just bring in 2 EE for 1 Mox and 1 L.-bauble

He starts with leyline of the void. After a few turns there is an Ensnaring bridge on the table and he is empty handed. I load up my balistas as fast as i can ( Sacing LED etc.). He is at 17 life. With the two balistas at 7 counters each (!) he topdecks his helm of whatnot and we go to G3

I bring in the 2 seal of cleansing

G3 was a grindfest including 2 Kolagands comand on his side and a bunch of plainswalers cerating CA for him. I have the salvagers ready with balista in the yard, rebuying baubels to find LED. He drops chalice on zero the turn befor i draw LED... Sad! I have two more draws to get rid of the chalice but fail to find an EE or seal. Die to his 5/5 beatdown

Hmmm.... 1:4 after 5 rounds. Nice performance one might say. I do not consider droping because the deck feels good and it felt like I was just missing a bit of luck here and there.

Round 6 / STORM 2:1

This time with chalice on my side. Mentor takes him down real quick.

G2 I already had canonist in play while he struggels to find his secound land. I made a mistake here an played my chalice on one (did not have enough mana to play it on two and was afraid of gettig it discarded). He finds his land, plays recall at my eot and comboes of on his turn...

G3. Another quick chalice, he has no answer this time

Round 7 / REANIMATOR/DEPTHS 2:0

I have T1 Chalice into t2 Mentor She shows me wamp and stage. a bauble shows a dark depths on top of her deck. She makes a token only to get it bounced followed by beeing overruned by monks.

SB:
+2 Swords
- 2 ?

She keeps 7 and passes without a play. Her next turn she binns this masked white -2/-2 monster. On her next turn she exhumes trough my chalice on 1. In the meanwhile i however drew my combo, lay down the shrinked salvagers and kill her with balista

Round 8 / STONEBLADE 2:0

Not may memories here. He gets steamrolled both games. Fist game is combo, secound is mentor beats. Cavern was good here!

Comming from 1-4 I should have stopped here... But like I said, the deck i realy fun to play so off to the last round...

Round 9 / STONEBLADE 0:2

… did not work as expected. My opponent played way more aggressive then the guy from round 8 and his t2 SFM was very hard to deal with.

G2, he mulls to 5, I keept a hand that I probably should have mulled I guess. No t1 play but two copies of chalice to follow it up. He pierces my first chalice and plays surgical on it, taking my 2nd
copy. Game becomes very grindy and I am slowly going down from baterskull beats. 3 lands in play, balista in the yard and LED on the field. 3 Salvagers in hand. On 6 life I draw my 4th land, slam salvagers but he has fow. Next turn I am down to 2 and try again (he has 2 cards in hand), this time salvagers resolves. But he has a timely sword to plowshares to stop me.

So thats my report from last weeks tournament. The 2 Lodestone Baubles were more or less my flex slots. Might change them to more impactful cards like Jitte or Infernal tutor. Hopefully I get time to test some more in the future...

I wanna say THANKS to all the contributors here that helped to brainstorm about this deck and contribute to the further development. I realy hope to see some more discussion about this deck

f7eleven

10-11-2017, 10:01 PM

Just picked up the last few pieces for this deck and played it in a 66-person tournament this past Sunday.

Finished 3-4 with a couple tough losses off Dark Confidant flips, including one game in which I took 21 off just confidants and fetch lands; something that seems extremely unlucky with only 13 cards with a CMC above 0.

The deck is a blast to play. I figured out pretty early that it can be right to wait a turn to combo off so that you can play around graveyard hate w/ multiple salvagers activations.

I also think I was probably too hasty in firing off Mishra's Baubles to see what the opponent is about to draw, and should have instead used them more strategically with fetches and stacking confidant/bauble triggers to minimize self-damage.

I couldn't resist playing a single Magus of the Will in the main (over the 2nd Lodestone) as a kind-of Salvagers #5. I did get to activate him and play 6 baubles from the graveyard with a Mentor and a couple tokens already in play, which was so fucking cool (I miss Yawgmoth's Will).

I also REALLY liked Sanctum Prelate out of the board as Chalices 5-6, which I haven't seen elsewhere - and it was my best SB card for the tourney.

Other than that, I played a pretty stock list, squeezing a Karakas into the main and side, and some Sorcerous Spylasses in the side too.

1 Ancient Den
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Arid Mesa
4 Cavern of Souls
1 City of Traitors
1 Flooded Strand
1 Karakas
1 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
2 Scrubland
1 Windswept Heath
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Dark Confidant
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lodestone Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
1 Magus of the Will
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Monastery Mentor
3 Mox Opal
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Walking Ballista

Sideboard:
2 Containment Priest
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Karakas
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Seal of Cleansing
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Swords to Plowshares

Looking forward to playing it again. I think the EE will become another Seal of Cleansing. I could also see a Spyglass finding its way into the main, but don't know what I'd cut.

f7eleven

10-25-2017, 10:00 AM

I played the list above in a 3-round local weekly, going 2-1.

Beat NicFit round1; game1 on the back of Monk tokens, then a quick combo game2.

Beat RUG Delver round2 after a non-game1 with an early scoop to Chalice. Game 2 I baited out removal with Mentor and Prelate, then drew my deck with an unanswered Salvagers, winning the following turn.

Lost to BR reanimator when he shredded my hand game1. Game 2 he showed a Chancellor, and a bauble sacrificed itself so I could cast LED and some petals turn1 (I kept a zero-land 6 of 3x petal, LED, Salvager, bauble). When he Exhumed a Griselbrand on his first turn, I sac'd the LED to get Salvagers into play, and was able to win from there, though that was just lucky since he didn't put a Chancellor into play to shut off my combo. Got ROFLstompped game3 anyway.

I still lose both those games even with Crypts in the board, so still not sure if they're worth it.

As I mentioned above, I like how Sanctum Prelate boosts the stompy-ness of the deck, and have wanted to emphasize that aspect even more. So I've been tinkering with a mono-white list that basically swaps Bobs for Thalia 2.0 and includes some Tsabo's Webs to make her way more brutal (against fetches). Will be testing it out this week, but I'll be playing one version or another of this deck at SCG DC this weekend!

bob2008

10-25-2017, 04:03 PM

Sanctum prelate looks interesting here - I will try to get some of them and try it out the next time. nice find !
I am also on mono white now. Mana base gets a bit more stable which is good. I also play a 2nd karakas in the deck.

So far I think the deck has sometimes difficulties to come bake from an unfavoured boardposition (mostly hoping to draw the missing combo piece) this is why i currently try a set of SFM in place of the bobs and the 2 flexslots. Thalia 2.0 is a cool card but - imo - she does not do much when you are behind on board .

Not sure if this dillutes the deck to much but the grindpower of sfm might make the deck more stable overall. In the limited testing i did against ( mostly against bug) it was good.
What do you think?

paradigm72

10-25-2017, 04:08 PM

Agree on Sanctum Prelate being a promising find. Seems like it can help both the fair plan providing virtual card advantage, and the combo plan providing critical protection against removal.

I've been tinkering with the idea of running Ensnaring Bridge main. It just seems so powerful against the fair-heavy metagame right now (and against Sneak/Reanimator out of the combo decks). Not sure how bad the anti-synergy with Mentor is, or if there's a board strategy to work around that.

Capi5681

10-27-2017, 08:41 AM

You need some draw engine though, without black you’ve taken out Bob I’m assuming and he is how you grind and re-fuel. If you’re off the Black than I think Blue is required for thoughtcast or some sort of card advantage engine. The deck plays too lean to not have a source or card advantage.

Also a bonus of Bob, since our combo is creature based (yes mentor is a ‘combo’) he acts as almost a “Coalition Honor Guard” insulating our combo creatures against the limited removal that legacy decks play

f7eleven

10-27-2017, 09:38 AM

You're exactly right. I missed the extra cards from Bob after testing Thalia 2.0 last night. I also missed the fetches turning Mishra's into a scry1. This deck really lets Bob shine too, with so many zeros in the deck. And it's true that Bob and Mentor are both lightning rods for opponents' removal.

I'm pretty set on my maindeck for this weekend, with the only spot I'm going back and forth on being the 2nd Lodestone vs the 4th Mox Opal.

As for the sideboard, I'm still not sure if I want dedicated graveyard hate (and which - Crypt or Leyline). I'm also pretty jealous of the Mentor list from the top 8 of Legacy Champs getting to play Cabal Therapy. I'm trying out a couple in the side now. I see them coming in with the StP's when Chalice comes out vs Eldrazi and D&T. You do get to see random cards from the opponent's hand with Urza's Bauble, and of course therapy is even better with Mentor than it is with Young Pyro. Therapies vs faster combo seems good too, even along side Chalice.

Versus D&T, I noticed CalebD left his Chalices in for game 2, but I'd rather play around their StP than let them blink a Chalice to zero counters. How have you all be siding vs D&T?

f7eleven

10-30-2017, 12:11 PM

This deck continues to be the most fun I've had in Legacy in a long time, even though I dropped at 3-3 Saturday. I kind of wish I'd played it out since 6-3 ended up making day-2, but my buddies also dropped after round-6 and we went out for drinks, which happens too infrequently these days to pass up.

Round 1 vs Manaless Dredge - Game 1 I had some monks going, and a Chalice to protect me from Therapy, but he was able to combo me out pretty quickly. Game 2 I had the Crypt and a Priest, and was able to combo him out with the time they gave me. Game 3 I brought in the Seals since I was expecting Leyline now that he knew for sure what I was doing. This game was a grind as he FoW'd then Surgical Extracted my Mentors, and I used Ballistas to both keep him on 2 or fewer creatures and exile Bridges. I had nugged all his Bridges, one at a time, but still needed an LED to finish him off, while I had dead Cleansings in hand. He was finally able to DR a Flayer, but couldn't do it again because of Cannonist. I was going to die to Flayer triggers from Ichorids during his next upkeep, but I topdecked the LED to finish him off as time was called.

Round 2 vs D&T - Game 1 I led with a Chalice on 1 which was blinked a couple turns later and I couldn't find a Ballista to stay in it. Game 2 there was more back and forth, and I was 1 point of damage (or one mana) away from replaying Petal until my monk tokens could swing for lethal, but instead I got him to 4. The next turn I drew a Ballista I could play for 2 and needed my Salvagers to connect so I could play it and finish him off, but he flashed in the Batterskull I put him on (since he searched up Jitte w/ SFM) and then I died.

Round 3 vs Show & Tell - Game 1 he has turn 2 Show in an Emrakul, I put in a Salvagers. On my turn I'm able to get to 7 permanents in play at 16 life. He swings, I sac everything but Salvagers, but I don't topdeck the LED to steal the win. Game 2 I keep a hand with LED, baubles and the mana for a turn 2 uncounterable Salvagers. With the baubles I see Show and Tell, Emrakul, and Blood Moon. He plays turn 1 Show into Emrakul, I put in LED, and as I draw off my bauble triggers and find the Salvagers I tell him he should have played the Blood Moon :) turn 2 win! Game 3 he does play out an early moon, and he counters/extracts my Mentors. He cantrips for a few turns while I can't find another white (mentor was off petal) to cast Salvagers - and I never do.

Round 4 vs Slivers - He's a few minutes late to the table and then I turn 3 him while he has two Muscle Slivers in play. I'll take it.

Round 5 vs Pile - Game 1 he's in complete control, and the turn before he would kill me I topdeck a Salvagers he doesn't have a counter for and win out of no where. I know I took Chalices out for game 2 on the draw, and brought them in for game 3 on the play, but both post-board games were a grind. I was doing enough to stay alive game 3 despite an early Needle on Salvagers, and him eventually extracting my LED's and Ballistas, but he ultimately finishes me off with another TNN (a Pontiff got the first one).

Round 6 vs Goblins - Game 1 he leads on Lackey; I don't do much at all but a Bob reveals Salvagers on my last turn, and he exclaims, "OOhhhhh." The jig is up. He floods hard game 2 and I combo him out. In game 3 he deals with a couple Mentors via Pyrokinesis, but I have the infinite mana on like turn 4, though he's confused because there's no Ballista to be seen. He laughs when I target zero land cards in his graveyard with Lodestone Bauble, and then I say, "I'll do that 100 more times." He draws his deck then cycles an incinerator for the sudoku, with 40-something bauble triggers on the stack. :)

I honestly think this deck is viable, and not a $50 donation to take into battle at the Open. In the losses you always feel in it, and have outs. Opponents genuinely enjoy playing vs the deck, win or lose, and ask lots of questions after the match. And you also get a lot of giddy spectators with the deck, which adds to my enjoyment, personally.

Still looking forward to playing it again. I didn't miss the Spyglasses. I'd like to find room for some more Cabal Therapy in the board; I never saw the one, but I did side it in a bunch.

1 Ancient Den
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Arid Mesa
4 Cavern of Souls
1 City of Traitors
1 Flooded Strand
1 Karakas
1 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
2 Scrubland
1 Windswept Heath
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Dark Confidant
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Walking Ballista
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Lodestone Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mishra's Bauble
3 Mox Opal
4 Urza's Bauble

Sideboard:
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Containment Priest
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Tormod's Crypt

Doishy

10-30-2017, 01:25 PM

F7, thanks for the continued work on the deck.
I absolutely love Bomberman and think that the BW version that appeared is the coolest one out there, alas currently I have no financial means or justification into buying into it until I finish my current project.

Do you feel the maindeck needs tinkering at all or is it just in too good a place right now?

ManWearingHat

11-30-2017, 08:47 AM

Hello, fellow bombers! Longtime lurker, first time poster joining in here to share a brief Wednesday night Legacy report. As a quick background, I’ve been collecting since Onslaught, playing since Ravnica, and usually play Storm or Canadian/Grixis Delver. When top got banned I wanted to find a deck that truly made Mentor great, and was directed to this thread. Just grabbed my fourth Bob and second City of Traitors this week, so I broke a month hiatus from playing at the shop (due to moving and work) and swung over there to jam.

The number of people who play Legacy at the shop is pretty small, but it’s at least fairly diverse, and everyone views it more as a testing ground than anything. Just three rounds last night, went 2-1 overall.

Round 1 vs. Czech pile, 1-2 : A friend of mine and testing buddy, who is always on 4C Deathblade, Czech Pile, or some multicolor stack of durdling. He goes USea->ponder->pass, and when I open on a Cavern naming human instead of USea->Delver, he’s surprised. Game 1 is a bit of a slog, I get Cavern and spare mana down, a Mox, a couple LEDs, and when I go for Bob and Mentor he Pushes and Kommands them respectively, taking down one of the extra LEDs. He gets a Jace down and starts fatesealing me, signaling he has no way of beating a drawn Salvagers. I bauble a few times for extra draws, and in a risky move he takes a turn off fatesealing to try an brainstorm into answers. As it happens, that turn I get Salvagers down, crack the LED, he forces it, but I have extra mana to re-initiate the loop.

Game 2 I keep an experimental hand and just play sol lands and Ballistas on 1, 1, and 2 over the first couple turns. The beats get him to 8 while he spins his wheels cantripping, but I draw nothing impactful, and he kills my Ballistas eventually. When I do pull the trigger, he Diabolic Edicts my Salvagers as I go for the combo. Game 3 I mull down, keep a hand with the combo but not enough mana hoping to play the odds, so of course they weren’t in my favor. I didn’t get there, and he Thoughtseize/Hymned my hand apart and won with a Jace ultimate sometime later after many fateseals.

Outside of the main rounds, we played a couple pre-board practice games and went 1-1, the matchup is a lot closer than I thought it would be. I think I mainly need to work on being more judicious with my mulligans. For sideboarding, Chalice seemed mediocre against a bunch of Kommands, so I boarded in two Tormod’s Crypt for two Chalice knowing he has Kess as well as Snaps. Strixes and Snaps don’t really matter much in the matchup compared to Kommand/Jace but Pontiffs are probably better than Chalices. Definitely merits more practice.

--------------------------
Round 2 vs. 4C Loam, 2-0 : I lose the roll and he starts with Bayou pass, I drop a Cavern on human which gets wasted the next turn. I respond with a Scrubland, mox, bauble, and Bob which sits around for some turns drawing cards. He gets a Knight out, I land a Mentor and make a couple tokens, which gets promptly Decayed the next turn. He grabs a Stage and passes, ready to go for Depths, but I have Salvagers+LED ready to go after all the Bob draws. He activates Knight in response to me starting the loop and showing him the Ballista in my gy, trying to find something, but doesn’t have it.

Game 2 starts similarly, I get double-wasted off my Cavern and City of Traitors, but only after I’ve landed a mentor and made three monks. He PFires the Mentor, but doesn’t have much else, so I start bashing in with little monks and play a Salvagers with no LED or Ballista. He’s puzzled, and PFires one of the Monks. Next turn, I use Salvagers to loop some baubles, grow the two remaining monks, and bash in for lethal.

For boarding here, I believe I took out the Chalices for two Crypts and two EE (expecting him to Chalice for 0).

--------------------------
Round 3 vs. Canadian Thresh, 2-0 : This is actually a friend borrowing my Canadian list that I brought with me, normally he’s on Mono-R Sneak but he wants to practice playing with blue cards. I lose the die roll (I actually didn’t win a single one last night), he plays Trop and passes, and I go for an Ancient Tomb, an LED, some baubles, a Mox to make it Daze-proof, and pull the trigger on the turn 1 Chalice. Here, he actually Forces the mox (he’s never played Delver or against Bomberman, so inexperience definitely factored in) so I get the Chalice down and the game is pretty academic after that. If he had forced the Chalice, I had a second one in hand ready to go.

Game 2, I have a hand that doesn’t do anything turn 1, and he gets a Goyf and a Goose down, but turn 3 I can Cavern out a Mentor and I make 5 monk tokens. He’s surprised, but works with it, we pass a couple times while I get a Bob down and hunt for an LED. When I finally find one, I go to crack it, and when I do he Surgicals my Ballistas. I say fine, let him take them, and he Stifles the Salvagers trigger. Still fine, I pass, and the next turn I do the loop again and attack with five 1000/1000 monk tokens. I let him know after the game that he should have Surgical’d the LED, and when I went to activate Salvagers again, he could’ve Stifled the second activation. Then my only recourse was looping baubles to make the Monks lethal, and at least there his removal is live to save him.

I believe I just took out a Lodestone Bauble and a Mox Opal for two Crypts when I boarded here. Didn’t feel like I needed the Swords at all, but perhaps there’s worse cards to take them out for as a safety valve against a big Goyf.

All-in-all, I loved the deck, and its non-combo backup plans are just as resilient as I had hoped they would be. I’m going to keep testing it as I go forward, I think a friend and I are going to go to SCG Worcester this year and I’ll be deciding between some Delver deck or Bomberman, and he’ll take the other. And next year we’re planning on doing a Team Constructed open, either Baltimore or Cincinnati, and this deck seems like a blast for that format. For the sideboard, I genuinely want to try the Prelate/Therapy plan, partly because I love casting Therapy but also because that fills a hole in the sideboard of dealing with problematic spells. Can’t wait to test more with the deck.

Maindeck:
2 Ancient Den
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Arid Mesa
4 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Traitors
1 Windswept Heath
2 Plains
2 Scrubland
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Dark Confidant
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Walking Ballista
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Lodestone Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Mox Opal
4 Urza's Bauble

Sideboard:
2 Containment Priest
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Seal of Cleansing
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Tormod's Crypt

Bonus Story: In one of the practice games against Czech Pile, turn 3 I go for Salvagers with two LEDs out and a Ballista in the yard off a Cavern and he tanks for thirty seconds, then exclaims "I'm just dead, I'm literally dead. I can do nothing here." and reveals a hand of Bolt, Bolt, Push, Force, blue card with no fetches in play. This deck is a joy. :tongue:

hofzge

12-21-2017, 03:56 AM

4 Mox Opal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Lodestone Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Gustha's Scepter

4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Walking Ballista
4 Monastery Mentor

4 Thirst for Knowledge

4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Ancient Den
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Seat of the Synod
2 Tundra
1 Academy Ruins

How about instead of Oath we would play paradoxical Outcome:

4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Den
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Seat of the Synod

4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Walking Ballista
4 Monastery Mentor

4 Paradoxical Outcome

4 Mox Opal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Lodestone Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Gustha's Scepter

This is reminiscent of the Paradoxical Mentor List that Claudio Bonanni played at Nebraska War, but more combo and less card draw - As Michael already said Thoughtcast is kind of mediocre with Baubles (https://www.woodedteam.com/paradoxicaldekctech).

I am unsure if when you draw the cards immediately you rather want Mishra's Baubles then the Scepter and Lodestone Baubles.
Maybe this is better:

4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Den
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Seat of the Synod

4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Walking Ballista
4 Monastery Mentor

4 Paradoxical Outcome

4 Mox Opal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Urza's Bauble
2 Lodestone Bauble
3 Mishra’s Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Gustha's Scepter

Ninjastill

12-21-2017, 01:23 PM

How about instead of Oath we would play paradoxical Outcome:

4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Den
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Seat of the Synod

4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Walking Ballista
4 Monastery Mentor

4 Paradoxical Outcome

4 Mox Opal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Lodestone Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Gustha's Scepter

This is reminiscent of the Paradoxical Mentor List that Claudio Bonanni played at Nebraska War, but more combo and less card draw - As Michael already said Thoughtcast is kind of mediocre with Baubles (https://www.woodedteam.com/paradoxicaldekctech).

I am unsure if when you draw the cards immediately you rather want Mishra's Baubles then the Scepter and Lodestone Baubles.
Maybe this is better:

4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Den
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Seat of the Synod

4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Walking Ballista
4 Monastery Mentor

4 Paradoxical Outcome

4 Mox Opal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Urza's Bauble
2 Lodestone Bauble
3 Mishra’s Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Gustha's Scepter

How has paradoxical outcome been?

carlinms

01-31-2018, 03:07 PM

Has anyone been playing the BW version lately? I was looking to put it together and was wondering what some bad matchups are? What do people’s current lists look like? Thanks.

angelbaka

02-01-2018, 01:48 AM

@carlinms, I'm the guy who's list got posted on This Week In Legacy and who made the Reddit posts.

The deck runs great. It's one of my favorite brews right now and I just bought most of the pieces I was missing last week. I have a blast playing it.

Bad matchups are anything that plays Trinisphere and Show and Tell. Moon Stompy (especially the version with a trillion board wipes) is basically unwinnable, in my experience. About as bad as miracles vs 12post.

Pretty much everything else is even to good. The deck is full of fantastic cards and shitty cantrips. You lose more games to variance than something like Delver, but you get more freerolls and lose less to variance than anything that doesn't play Brainstorm.

Give it a shot, it's a ton of fun. It's also great to remember why Bob is (or at least was) considered one of the best creatures ever printed.

carlinms

02-01-2018, 01:37 PM

Bad matchups are anything that plays Trinisphere and Show and Tell. Moon Stompy (especially the version with a trillion board wipes) is basically unwinnable, in my experience. About as bad as miracles vs 12post.

Thanks for all the content I’ve been catching up on the MTGGoldfish article and the reddit thread. I saw you mentioning Seal of Cleansing in your board. What’s the advantage of that over Disenchant?

Also, is there any other message boards or discord? And do any of you guys stream? Thanks again!

Manroe

02-02-2018, 05:59 PM

Could someone explain the usefulness of Gustha's Scepter to a pleb like me please?

hofzge

02-03-2018, 06:27 AM

Could someone explain the usefulness of Gustha's Scepter to a pleb like me please?

The idea is that with scepter you can exile e.g. a Mentor/Salvagers and then crack your LED to cast those. Otherwise LED is often a bit dead as you can only really use it in a combo turn and you need some artifact finisher like ballista/lodestone bauble in your graveyard to use the infinite mana.
With Scepter you can also better fulfill the conditions on Oath of Scholars, as you can exile your last card if need be.

Thanks for all the content I’ve been catching up on the MTGGoldfish article and the reddit thread. I saw you mentioning Seal of Cleansing in your board. What’s the advantage of that over Disenchant?

One idea of that would be that you can give prowess whenever you want to instead of needing an artifact/enchantment in play (which would often be your own artifact). Also should you play Oath of Scholars then Seal of Cleansing is superior for the aforementioned reason of emptying your hand.

Manroe

02-03-2018, 01:03 PM

That makes total sense, thank you.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

themtgzealot

02-07-2018, 11:16 AM

mambosong

02-08-2018, 12:00 PM

Having being selected as the Legacy player for an upcoming Team Trios GP - I am considering playing this deck - I have a month to prepare.

I'm taking it to my local legacy tonight for a first test run.

The deck appeals to me as a chalice deck with a fast kill - although I'm hesitant as I won't be able to practice on MTGO much.

Will report how the deck does tonight later :)

I highly recommend testing out Kitesail Freebooter as at least of a 3-of

Tested with them last night and they felt fantastic, went with a 4-0 record against Sneaky Show, ANT, fairy blade, and TES.

Might be because its great against combo, but it really helped give me a huge boost, I didn't draw chalice against ANT, and came up only once against TES.

Its a proactive disruption piece that protects your turn 2 mentors/salvagers, etc from being plow'd or countered.

I tested out Tasigur as well (as per reddit post someone made), and it honestly felt like a win-more card, it came up in about half my games (always drew it, even though it was a 1-of) and it the potential combat damage it provided wasn't necessary to give me the win.

thought-knot seer was played as a 2-of, and it came up about 1/3 of the games, it was hard to really assess if I needed it, but it definitely provided a clock for when i didn't have the mentor beats going.

Manroe

02-08-2018, 07:17 PM

I highly recommend testing out Kitesail Freebooter as at least of a 3-of

Tested with them last night and they felt fantastic, went with a 4-0 record against Sneaky Show, ANT, fairy blade, and TES.

Might be because its great against combo, but it really helped give me a huge boost, I didn't draw chalice against ANT, and came up only once against TES.

Its a proactive disruption piece that protects your turn 2 mentors/salvagers, etc from being plow'd or countered.

I tested out Tasigur as well (as per reddit post someone made), and it honestly felt like a win-more card, it came up in about half my games (always drew it, even though it was a 1-of) and it the potential combat damage it provided wasn't necessary to give me the win.

thought-knot seer was played as a 2-of, and it came up about 1/3 of the games, it was hard to really assess if I needed it, but it definitely provided a clock for when i didn't have the mentor beats going.Freebooter MB or SB?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

carlinms

02-08-2018, 09:38 PM

@mambosong how are you sideboarding? Sometimes it’s obvious but against something like grixis what are you shaving?

themtgzealot

02-09-2018, 05:14 AM

I went 4-0 with my first test run of the deck at a local event.

Beat UR Delver / Death & Taxes / Esper Deathblade and Czech Pile.

List I played was as follows:

2 Plains
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Scrubland
2 Ancient Den
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Walking Ballista
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Dark Confidant
4 Lotus Petal
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble
2 Lodestone Bauble
4 Mox Opal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

Sideboard
2 Containment Priest
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Disenchant
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Karakas

Deck felt great I see alot of lists with fetches over cites 3-4 which I disagree with fast mana is the basis of the deck and I want as many of those effects as possible.

Ancient Den was great with Mox and 2 plains was enough basic imo. Could see moving the Karkas main deck but not sure yet.

Sideboard EE was excellent - canonist and swords didn't do much for me and I think I am going to swap them for 2x Orzhov Pontiff and 2x Sanctum Prelate (Both human for cavern) as boardwipe and chalice 5-6.

Playing in a larger tournament this weekend so will report after that.

That nice guy

02-09-2018, 12:04 PM

I've recently switched to this archetype and I still don't understand why people prefer the black list. I'm 12-2 in matches at my local with the red version. Bob seems to either die early or take too much time while recruiter gets me exactly what I need to win. For reference my sideboard is almost all 1-ofs except for 3 bloodmoon which has really helped in the Eldrazi matchup. Don't forget that this deck doesn't mulligan well, so adding 4 turn 1 win cards against the most played decks is much needed consistency. Not only has Bloodmoon dominated certain matches but tutoring for Maniac Vandal and Faerie Macabre, ect., has been the difference between victory and defeat too many times. Also, with recruiters against decks like storm/Sneak I feel more comfortable shaving ballistas for SideBoard cards.

That said, I think Orzhov Pontiff is amazing and would like to test 4 SB cabal therapy in a build with 4 probes.

Kaono

02-09-2018, 02:41 PM

I've recently switched to this archetype and I still don't understand why people prefer the black list. I'm 12-2 in matches at my local with the red version.

If Imperial Recruiter wasn't so expensive more people would probably be testing it out.

That nice guy

02-09-2018, 02:47 PM

If Imperial Recruiter wasn't so expensive more people would probably be testing it out.

It only runs 2, and you're already piloting 4 LED

Kaono

02-09-2018, 02:53 PM

It only runs 2, and you're already piloting 4 LED

$300 of non-RL cards only playable in fringe decks is a far cry from $400 of RL cards also playable in tier-1 decks. I would also guess most people here did not buy their LEDs to play bomberman (kudos if they did).

Could you share your red list? I like the sound of it.

That nice guy

02-10-2018, 02:55 AM

$300 of non-RL cards only playable in fringe decks is a far cry from $400 of RL cards also playable in tier-1 decks. I would also guess most people here did not buy their LEDs to play bomberman (kudos if they did).

Could you share your red list? I like the sound of it.

It's the page1 list with Cities, and 1 Mox Diamond over inventor's fair. Only two loadstone and 4 Opal. Nothing special.
Now will some explain why Bob is better games 2 &3

mambosong

02-13-2018, 09:40 AM

freebooter mb or sb?

Sent from my oneplus a5000 using tapatalk

mb >:)

mambosong

02-13-2018, 09:49 AM

@mambosong how are you sideboarding? Sometimes it’s obvious but against something like grixis what are you shaving?

i've been cutting dark confidant for removal x3. collective brutality is pretty good against them since it kills their delvers while being playable through a resolved chalice. I tend to be able to out grind them with mentor (especially effective after a freebooter, especially if freebooter was played on T1).

mambosong

02-13-2018, 09:49 AM

That nice guy

02-13-2018, 03:54 PM

I went to my 5th 3-round local event last night and I lost my third round ever. The only 3 rounds (out of 15) that I ever lost were to Enchantress, first-turn probe->therapies from grixis delever 2 games, and last night I lost to a Midrange BUG list that Thoughtseized then Hymned me in two games. It makes me want to sideboard Leylines, but that seems like a really bad draw. Another interesting thing about last night is that it was the first time I have ever had to recrute up a revoker.

Also, the maindeck 1-of Mox diamond was awesome, I might test 2 soon.

I tested a 1-of Orzhov Pontiff target in the SB even though I'm on red, and it was never relevant.

I'm probably going to test hope of ghirapur in the SB next, but I'm not sure what to cut.

I'm going to a 1K this weekend and have 3 slots in my SB to fiddle with. The candidates are: 2nd Ethersworn Canonist, Phyrexian Revoker, Sanctum Prelate or Hope of Ghirapur. I want to drop Cannonist #2 and Prelate for 2 Hope, but I just havn't tested it. :rolleyes:

carlinms

02-14-2018, 08:15 AM

i've been cutting dark confidant for removal x3. collective brutality is pretty good against them since it kills their delvers while being playable through a resolved chalice. I tend to be able to out grind them with mentor (especially effective after a freebooter, especially if freebooter was played on T1).

Interesting. You’re not bringing in any GY hate? I’m playing 3 leyline in SB. I have brutalities main and freebooter in SB. Going to another weekly legacy 4 rounder tonight so we’ll see how that goes.

Manroe

02-14-2018, 01:25 PM

ChemicalBurns

02-14-2018, 11:38 PM

That nice guy

02-15-2018, 12:36 PM

http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD42020S/

I'll leave this here. Some spicy ways the Japanese have taken the WR builds, making it very Painter-esque with Ensnaring Bridge. The mana base is also really spicy (Ash Barrens!). Definitely some stuff to note here.

This is awesome!
If K-comand wasn't everywhere right now I'd be playing a version of this where I could side into mentor games 2-3. Also, I'd cut the abrade for more Chandras.

Unfortunately I don't think bridge is great right now with answers like K-COMAND, natural order, flickerwisp and decay in assension.

That nice guy

02-19-2018, 04:40 PM

I'm going to a 1K this weekend

After 7 rounds I went 5-2, 19th place. My losses were to 2 card Monty jank and red prison. At the end of the prison match, my opponent had chalice on 0 and 1, 3 ensnaring bridge, 2 spyglass out, 3 bloodmoon and 3 trinisphere. The bottom card of my library was the Explosives I was digging for and I had 2 cards left in my library. :confused: I was really suprised that he put chalice on 1 after 0 which ruined my plan of recycling Hope to lock my opponent off of playing spells. Apparently he just wanted it out of his hand for bridge.

The changes I think I will make is -1 loadstone bauble +1 Inventor's Fair. I'm also going to somehow add another explosive.

mambosong

02-21-2018, 04:07 PM

Interesting. You’re not bringing in any GY hate? I’m playing 3 leyline in SB. I have brutalities main and freebooter in SB. Going to another weekly legacy 4 rounder tonight so we’ll see how that goes.

I've never felt that it was necessary to bring in GY hate against that deck. I've always managed to stabilize against angler with mentor tokens, and outrace delver. i feel like GY hate is pretty soft against them, they generally don't "depend" on their GY but use it more as a "value engine", which makes it hard for me to justify bringing in GY hate (since the hate tends to be soft & dilutes our combo/aggro plan). I'd rather keep the strength of my Plan A, than to weaken their Plan B.

cosmiccoil

02-22-2018, 02:11 PM

I wanted to get some feedback from the group regarding possible sideboard cards, especially after talking with "That nice guy" at a local Legacy 2k.

I have been running a B/W version for a couple months. Here is my current mainboard (shout-out to ChemicalBurns for the great write-up on MTGGoldfish and his advocacy for running Kitesail Freebooter. I read your write-up on the way back from the 2k and found your build inspiring).

Creatures:18
4 Walking Ballista
4 Dark Confidant
2 Kitesail Freebooter
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Auriok Salvagers

Spells:24
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mishra's Bauble
3 Mox Opal
4 Urza's Bauble

Lands:18
2 Ancient Den
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Traitors
1 Inventors' Fair
2 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
2 Scrubland

These slots I think are no-brainers:

2 Containment Priest
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Tormod's Crypt

My remaining slots have gone through several iterations. Here are some cards I have tried in the board loosely in order of effectiveness:

Meekstone (in against Delver and Eldrazi. Worked great with Mentor. Felt too narrow and didn't help in other "big monster" matchups like SnT and Reanimator)
Swords to Plowshares (great in fair matchups when chalice came out. That said, keeping chalice in against most decks except DnT and Eldrazi feels correct just to protect the combo).
Lodestone Bauble (provides alternate, non-damage or post-surgical wincon, but it has rarely felt necessary).
Ethersworn Canonist (Great against Storm, but makes all of the hate susceptible to Hurkyls).
Sanctum Prelate (great against PFire decks, Storm and Miracles, but quite difficult to cast).
Shimmer Myr (offers a chance to win a half-turn faster and make some funny plays with Mentor, such as by flashing in an artifact for prowess, but generally did not feel necessary).
Cast Out (very flexible removal but sometimes difficult to cast or too slow to cast to deal with the problem, such as a Chalice on zero. It works poorly with Bob and only deals with a single hate card--as opposed to something more general or a hate card that can deal with multiple threats at once).
Ensnaring Bridge (helpful against SnT, Reanimator and aggro decks but works terribly with Mentor).
Disenchant + Seal of Cleansing (difficult to cast with mana base but great removal for narrow problems).

Here are some of the cards I am thinking about trying as alternatives to those listed above. I would love to hear about any of your experiences with these and what matchups you found them to be valuable for.

Thalia, Heretic Cathar (Effective against Delver, Lands and various tempo-y matchups and very easy to cast).
Ratchet Bomb (deals with Chalice on zero and prison decks which rely on three- and four-drops).
Devout Witness (recurrable way to deal with artifacts and enchantments, which is great against prison decks, DnT and other weird combos).

Here is what I was thinking about running this weekend:

2 Containment Priest
2 Kitesail Freebooter
2 Devout Witness
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ratchet Bomb

Thank you in advance for any feedback! Obviously these questions are really addressed to B/W players as the tutoring involved with Trinket Mage and Imperial Recruiter significantly change how to build a Bomberman board.

AceOfJacks

02-25-2018, 02:33 PM

cris_rj

02-25-2018, 10:15 PM

Hello everyone.

I just picked up my LEDs, but I sold my Bobs to a friend because peer pressure sucks. Is there any option for a mono white build? I tried subbing in 4 Magus of the Moon in place of the Bobs, but I fear without Imperial Recruiters, it's not going to work out well.

Any suggestions?

I have been mono white bomberman for a while in Cockatrice. Its a really good list white more solid but less speedy plans than B/w version.

Creatures:
4 Walking Ballista
2 Ethersworn canonist
4 sanctum prelate
1 argivian archaeologist
2 peacekeeper
2 leonin abunas
4 auriok salvangers

Spells:
3 lodestone bauble
4 Led
4 Chrome mox
4 chalice of the void
2 sorcerous spyglass
4 ensnaring bridge

Lands:
4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
4 cavern of souls
7 plains
1 inventors fair
1 karakas

And Thx for Tanaka Mikito for develloping this list and share with me !

themtgzealot

02-27-2018, 11:58 AM

Imperial recruiter reprint means we could get some more spotlight on the WR version :)

Sg Schultz

02-27-2018, 01:07 PM

I was playing the WB list a while back before Kitesail, and I was running 4 Infernal tutors. I’ve been debating picking the deck back up as WR. Why do we think the WB list is better? Does cabal therapy, Bob and Kitesail really push the deck over the edge?

I was thinking for WR:
4 Ballista
4 Mentor
4 Salvager
3 Imperial
2 Magus
4 Mishra
4 Urza
1 Lodestone
2/3 Opal
4 Petal
4 Chalice
4 LED
18-19 Lands (2-3 fetches)

Board:
2 Containment
2 Canonist
1 Sanctum Prelate
2 StP
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Manic Vandal
1 Seal Of Cleansing
1 Wear//Tear
2 Direfleet Daredevil

ChemicalBurns

02-27-2018, 09:15 PM

It's an exciting time for Bombermaning with the new Recruiter reprint!

I think I'll be updating the first page of the primer very soon. There's a lot of changes that have been going on, in particular:
- The Black build's adoption of Freebooter as a proactive piece of disruption.
- The altered mana base possible thanks to Spire of Industry. Although this makes us Wasteland and Moon prone, Wasteland we can't really dodge and Moon we can beat with Petals and Opals (and often use it ourself). This mana base can make us pseudo-tri-coloured which is... Pretty powerful. RWB with Bob and Recruiter sounds very interesting. It also makes off-colour spells a semi-reasonable option to cast, though Humans should still be prioritised.
- The navigation away from Mentor-based lists (particularly in Japan) for WR and a more Painter-esque prison shell using Ensnaring Bridge to buy time until we can combo. Recruiter makes comboing easier to assemble. As mentioned by @that nice guy though, this build may not be great in K-Command land.
- A more thorough exploration of WR with Recruiter's reprinting.

@cosmic coil I think Devout Witness is probably the key card to locking up the Dragon Stompy matchup, which is otherwise pretty difficult. Especially good in Recruiter shells.

I have good experience with Plow despite tension (it just ends up being about sequencing), but there are plenty of 1W removal (Blessed Alliance, for example) that could replace it. I think removal is necessary in any shell though, the same can be said for Disenchant/Seal of Cleansing effects. Many people having been opting for Leyline of the Void over Crypt recently and I don't mind this, Crypt has at times felt a little lacklustre to me (despite it triggering Mentor and being loopable). I do agree that Canonist is a little mediocre with Hurkyl's involved, though Sanctum has mana base tensions too... Perhaps additional Freebooters are a reasonable option - we do only need to buy time until we either can combo them ourselves or kill in 2-3 turns with Mentor (oh wait, that's exactly what you have > <).

I'm not sure THC is where we want to be, and her purpose seems a little bit disjointed from our plan. Test her out and see how she goes, but there may be other better options. I'm still a little confused on the rationale behind her, especially with her such a lacklustre topdeck and mediocre in any Karakas matchup.

cosmiccoil

03-01-2018, 08:29 PM

Thanks--I agree on all fronts.

I am going to test THC at SCG Worcester this weekend and will try out Devouted Witness once I pick up my recruiters. With the price of Bridge coming down I am not against trying those more prison-style builds without Mentor in the near future.

I am also curious about an Esper build with Trinket Mage and Bob. I am curious to find out how many blue-producing lands will be necessary to run to pull it off. With petals and opals I wonder if a single Tundra would be sufficient (providing 12 ways to cast them).

My thought with THC is just something disruptive against fair decks--from aggro loam to delver. I also want it for some combo matchups, such as lands and SnT. My local lands player has not bee around often enough to test the matchup (I am assuming its difficult) but it has been great so far against delver. I also wanted something to slow down SnT, which has proven challenging. I come from a background of playing soldiers and have found a Thalia to really mess with a lot of deck's early turns. Against decks with more than one Karakas (i.e., not Eldrazi), I would not bring it in anyways. I have also liked it as a disruptive element to creature decks like Elves and Eldrazi. THC helps with both, but again there might be better cards for either. Eldrazi appears to be a nightmare for B/W with chalice on zero, possibly a turn zero leyline and then fat spaghetti monsters swinging in for massive damage. I can see though how disenchant helps here, but it also just makes us reactive and not able to slow down their actual clock. Then again, it may just be unwinnable.

If it's a total bust I'll try something else at Classic on Sunday and report back any modifications. My meta in Maine is heavily Elves and so far it has helped trip them up enough to buy time. I imagine that some type of disenchant effect will replace the THCs in the long-run, or I might just start running red just to be able to tutor-up enchantment and artifact removal. If they could just print disenchant on a human creature for 2/3 mana, and one white, I'd be all set!

I completely see the argument for Leyline. I have liked being able to bring it in against RUG delver and Miracles; against RUG I might bring in leyline too, but against Miracles I probably would not just so I wouldn't have that as a later topdeck. At the very least it helps in that matchup with preventing SfA from flipping and getting rid of StP 5-8. I also had a weird niche scenario where I crypt-ed myself to avoid a surgical getting LEDs. It was narrow, but not an impossible situation to happen again.

I would be really curious to hear what B/W players are finding to be their worst matchups and whether they just try to dodge them or board heavily for them.

I have found Eldrazi, Show + Tell, and Moon Stompy to be miserable. I haven't tested at all against Lands but do notice that Punishing Fire decks definitely hamper our "fair" plan quite a bit.

Thanks again for the thoughts!

Lastly, a little PSA. As an L1 Judge I took the liberty of looking on the judge message boards about resolving Urza's Bauble. Everyone agrees that your opponent can see the card that you "look at" even though the card itself makes no mention of that action. Just a heads up in case you are in a comp REL situation and don't want a warning (this is, of course, assuming that the judge in front of you knows this as well).

angelbaka

03-02-2018, 12:33 AM

I've done a decent (although far from exhaustive) amount of testing with devout witness. I really, really wanted to like her, cause she seems like exactly what we wanted in counter-hate cards. Unfortunately, my experience has been that she is always either too slow or the uncounterability is negated by vulnerability to removal.

I am also curious about an Esper build with Trinket Mage and Bob. I am curious to find out how many blue-producing lands will be necessary to run to pull it off. With petals and opals I wonder if a single Tundra would be sufficient (providing 12 ways to cast them).

I haven't had any trouble casting a one-of trinket mage with a 4/4/4/3 mana base of caver/opal/petal/spire. It's still only a one-of, though, so might not be representative.

I completely see the argument for Leyline. I have liked being able to bring it in against RUG delver and Miracles; against RUG I might bring in leyline too, but against Miracles I probably would not just so I wouldn't have that as a later topdeck. At the very least it helps in that matchup with preventing SfA from flipping and getting rid of StP 5-8. I also had a weird niche scenario where I crypt-ed myself to avoid a surgical getting LEDs. It was narrow, but not an impossible situation to happen again.

As I noted in my Reddit post, my experience has been that crypt is a huge trap. It's not impressive to me as value/incidental hate because you're still down a card and it's not impressive as counter-yard strategies because it's still too slow. Leyline is (not easily, but still) castable, comes down T0. That's all I really need.
I could see doing some sort of split if you're running several trinket mages, maybe.

I would be really curious to hear what B/W players are finding to be their worst matchups and whether they just try to dodge them or board heavily for them.
I have found Eldrazi, Show + Tell, and Moon Stompy to be miserable. I haven't tested at all against Lands but do notice that Punishing Fire decks definitely hamper our "fair" plan quite a bit.

Anything with trinisphere sucks balls. I don't think that card is beatable.
My experience with eldrazi is that you beat them the same way all the other combo decks do - get lucky, or hope they get unlucky. They're pretty inconsistent, we're pretty fast, and mentor hands are still very often good enough.
Show and Tell is one of the biggest reasons I like Cast Out as the catch-all answer: show it in. I also found space for some Spyglasses in the board, they help a lot here and against Jace.
The key to beating Lands as a stompy deck, I think, is realizing that much like burn, Chalice on 2 is the gamebreaker, and chalice on 1 is just an inconvenience. Spyglass helps. Cast Out is very good. Leave EE in for exploration/vortex/manabond. If you play leyline it's probably worth it; if you play crypt I dunno that it is. The Mentor plan is generally bad against PFire, but a smart lands player brings in spheres/chalice/trinisphere, which means you need to keep it in to have a functional combo-kill condition. They're also still just dead to fast mentor hands. board out bob.

My only really terrible matchup so far has been the chandra tribal blood moon prison deck. Blood moon, trinisphere, chalice, fiery confluence, and planeswalker lockdown along with assorted other boardwipes and annoyance has been incredibly frustrating to play against. I've even had them bring in frikken' null rods. *pukes*
Everything else has been possibly annoying but beatable.

cosmiccoil

03-02-2018, 07:39 AM

Awesome run-down. Thanks!

One last question for the forum: when are you boarding in the two StP if you run them? I have struggled to find the right situation for them and would love to hear when people find them invaluable.

carlinms

03-02-2018, 04:45 PM

Lot of great discussion here. What have people thought about Tasigur? I don’t have a lot of matches of experience but I’ve found him unimpressive.

Played on Wednesday and went 2-2. Lost a very close one to miracles with sideboard humility (ouch!), but I was able to EE for 4 with that and Jace out. Also lost to a very boring Omnitell match and just didn’t draw anything relevant. Had containment priest when he show and tell’d omniscience. Won against UR delver and infect. Had a very close match against the UR deck until I was able to play pontiff.

How are people sideboarding? I have shaved Dark Confidants against removal heavy decks and some combo pieces when I’m expecting to play more of a mentor game plan.

mambosong

03-02-2018, 05:28 PM

Lot of great discussion here. What have people thought about Tasigur? I don’t have a lot of matches of experience but I’ve found him unimpressive.

I played about 20 games with him and found him lackluster as well. He just comes in at the wrong time and is the worst flip to bob ever. I cut him long ago for a 4th freebooter, which i think should be a collective brutality.

mambosong

03-02-2018, 05:36 PM

I have found Eldrazi, Show + Tell, and Moon Stompy to be miserable. I haven't tested at all against Lands but do notice that Punishing Fire decks definitely hamper our "fair" plan quite a bit.

Against eldrazi the best bet to kill their chalice on 0 is to run engineered explosives to break their chalice asap. honestly, sometimes their deck is just faster than ours, but the opposite is also true.

S&T i haven't had much problems yet, i have a second karakas in the SB for this match up and for lands/turbodepths (my meta has like 4-5 potential marit lage players). if you aren't running freebooter, that's the main reason why you are having difficulty with this match up. sneak attack is the main card to worry about, sometimes they cast show &tell for emrakul, and you get to play your salvagers a turn or 2 earlier to combo-kill them on the following turn. getting chalice on 1 also disrupts them from digging for the right pieces. Its definitely a high tension match-up since it feels like either deck can just win any turn.

Moon stompy is rough. I've managed to dodge it so I don't have too much to say here. As a previous moon player myself though, I'd say the main threat is monastery mentor unless i manage to draw my board wipes, but man, sometimes you just don't draw them. I'd focus on drawing as many cards as possible (keep bobs in) so you can just combo kill them. Also prioritize hands with petal/opal for obvious reasons.

Cave

03-03-2018, 05:15 AM

ChemicalBurns

03-04-2018, 09:22 PM

Hi! Never played the deck, but i play a lot of stompy, so i lurk here some times.
I was just wondering, has some of you guys considered going 3-4-5c?
I see the debate here is which color is the best to support white. I'd like to point out that every creature that has been considered viable in this topic is also a human type. So maybe a Cavern of Souls + Unclaimed Territory setup could help? Instead of debating whether trinket mage is better than imperial recruiter or not, you could just run both. It's not like you play a lot of basics anyway.

Edit: I know you lose the ability to reanimate LED from the graveyard. Does this happen so frequently?

The second-best gold land we have access to is actually Spire of Industry (as noted in angelbaka's builds), since it can be gold when needed and colourless otherwise. The artifact requirement is pretty easy to achieve. The deck becomes a bit more prone to Wasteland (then again, it's already very prone, so that may not be such a big thing) but it's true that you could have the grindy ability of both Bob and Recruiter in the same deck. Trinket Mage is also an option but that's really too many slow and clunky tutors. Especially since finding LED isn't actually the most critical part of the deck. I think it's less-so colour considerations holding back a 3+ colour version, but more so deck space.

Speaking of lands, how many have people been playing and what are their experiences? I have been advocating 18-19 recently, one of which is always an Inventors' Fair as a pseudo-tutor. Though I have seen some builds going even lower. I think this is feasible once you're running all 12 Baubles, but now that I am on typically 9-10 18-19 has felt much more comfortable.

cosmiccoil

03-05-2018, 07:34 AM

Speaking of lands, how many have people been playing and what are their experiences? I have been advocating 18-19 recently, one of which is always an Inventors' Fair as a pseudo-tutor. Though I have seen some builds going even lower. I think this is feasible once you're running all 12 Baubles, but now that I am on typically 9-10 18-19 has felt much more comfortable.

I have found 18 to be serviceable with 8 baubles, 4 petals and 3 opals. I think there's a slight tension between running more Lodestone Baubles at the expense of lands with the added cost to activate them.

That nice guy

03-05-2018, 05:49 PM

I went X-3 at SCG Worchester. I decimated 4 fair decks and lost to Tezz, Doomsday and Goblins with chalice. I also played a nifty mirror match at the end, but neither of us was taking that game too seriously. The only games I lost to fair decks started with T1 thoughtseize, T2 Hymn, which this deck just can't beat.

Tezz went turn 1 chalice on 0 then Transmute for chalice on 0 twice. Next Game he goes Turn 0 leyline, T1 Chalice on zero -> manaRock. I had a recruiter and had to decide between recruiting Warpriest of Thune or Artifact destroyer, but it didn't matter becase next turn he helms me. :(

Against Doomsday, I won game 1 and mulled to hate games 2-3 (chalice and canonist both games) and he says, "Don't care", plays land, petal, petal and wins or uses Hurkyl's and wins. :(
Note: My opponent won the third game after I drew 45 cards on his upkeep, which makes me wonder if mindbreak trap doesn't deserve a spot in the SB.

Against Goblins I didn't know what he's playing and played a T1 chalice. He then plays cavern, lackey chalice on 0. Damn it. They were tight games that I could have played a little bit better.

Conclusions: As I reflect upon my games I realize that the reason Bob is comparable to recruiter is that Bob makes the mentor backup plan much stronger. So now that big tournaments are over I will test black. Also, from now on I will drop the 2nd cannonist for a sanctum prelate in the SB.

ChemicalBurns

03-05-2018, 09:34 PM

I have updated bits and pieces of the primer with newer card choices.

However, I would appreciate anyone who has insights about matchups to post up your experiences here and I will get to incorporating these into the primer. I would probably like opinions on:

Delver decks (this, in my mind, are favourable with both Chalice/combo/fair plan all strong).
DRS midrange decks (again, relatively favourable)
Miracles (Chalice is great, other plans can be awkward with their wealth of removal)
Death & Taxes/Maverick (slightly favourable to medium. Thalia is a pain and they can brickwall a Mentor draw sometimes. Ballista really is huge).
Elves (Chalice + Ballista is very good. I feel this is favourable but can get punked out by random Natural Orders).
Eldrazi (unfavourable, can fix this up post-board though, Explosives is great)
Dragon Stompy (the hardest piece of crap on the planet because of additional locks in Trinisphere. Unlike Eldrazi, we can't punk them out with Moons either).
Storm (medium, game one is often Chalice or bust, since we are slower than them, post-board Storm has a lot of answers to our permanent-based locks).
Lands (medium. Can punk them out with Mentor draws before PFire can even answer them, but they have plenty of answers to that. Usually going for Salvagers who is not prone to Fire and comboing out is the best g1 route to victory. Post-board they have Spheres/Chalice and this gets harder, sometimes need to rely on alternative plans such as Magus/Mentor beats)
Dredge/Reanimator (usually reliant on having hate. Leyline is good, Crypt can be okay especially against Dredge since it can be looped, but is kind of lacklustre against Reanimator variants)
Sneak & Show (tough. Their kill is fast, gets around Chalice, but post-board we have a lot of good options)

There is honestly probably a lot more I am forgetting (Burn other fringe decks etc.) but hopefully we can get a very full primer up and running.

Peace!

That nice guy

03-06-2018, 06:11 PM

cosmiccoil

03-10-2018, 12:32 PM

Delver decks (this, in my mind, are favourable with both Chalice/combo/fair plan all strong).

Grixis Delver is incredibly favorable. The inability of DRS to interact with LED is huge and the only GY hate out of the board is usually Surgical, which is easy to play around. I have found the deck to be vulnerable to YP + 1,000,000 tokens and double-TNN draws, but that is it. Ballista is great removal before Delver does anything and can chump Gurmag for quite a while.

U/R Delver is also a favorable matchup. They have great difficulty killing Salvagers and they can't really interact with the combo. They have a fast clock but it can easily be disrupted with Chalice. PoP is not great, though.

RUG Delver is a bit more difficult if no Chalice resolves--but is super favorable if it does. Mandrils having trample matters.

BUG Delver also seems very favorable, unless they can resolve a

DRS midrange decks (again, relatively favourable)

Agree. Decks with slow clocks are generally good or us. EE against 4c Control is very good. Hymn is annoying, but Baubles allow us to play around it to some extent.

Miracles (Chalice is great, other plans can be awkward with their wealth of removal)

Surgical Snap/Surgical is a problem out of the board. Prelate is great here as another way to fight their cantrips. Terminus can make Mentor more awkward. I would say we are definitely favored by a lot, but they have the tools to beat us.

Death & Taxes/Maverick (slightly favourable to medium. Thalia is a pain and they can brickwall a Mentor draw sometimes. Ballista really is huge).

Agree. I think Maverick is a lot easier than DnT, so I might separate these. Revoker and Prelate on zero sucks far more out of DNT than Maverick. Maverick's GY hate is not usually RiP, so that also helps.

Elves (Chalice + Ballista is very good. I feel this is favourable but can get punked out by random Natural Orders).

Agree.

Eldrazi (unfavourable, can fix this up post-board though, Explosives is great)

Eldrazi sucks. They are too fast and can disrupt us by putting Chalice on zero. Mentor is terrible on defense so we just need to cross our fingers that we have EE or a Disenchant effect to get rid of Chalice and they either don't have Leyline or we can blow it up. The only benefit is that we can easily board out our chalices to bring in any type of interaction we want.

Dragon Stompy (the hardest piece of crap on the planet because of additional locks in Trinisphere. Unlike Eldrazi, we can't punk them out with Moons either).

Basically unwinnable unless (1) they have a slow clock, (2) we can get an opal into play, (3) we can EE on 3 and (4) they don't have leyline. So, basically, as I said, unwinnable.

Storm (medium, game one is often Chalice or bust, since we are slower than them, post-board Storm has a lot of answers to our permanent-based locks).

I think we are slightly favored post-board but only if on KSF and Prelate. Canonist is a trap because Hurkyls is already too good against us.

Lands (medium. Can punk them out with Mentor draws before PFire can even answer them, but they have plenty of answers to that. Usually going for Salvagers who is not prone to Fire and comboing out is the best g1 route to victory. Post-board they have Spheres/Chalice and this gets harder, sometimes need to rely on alternative plans such as Magus/Mentor beats)

Yep.

Dredge/Reanimator (usually reliant on having hate. Leyline is good, Crypt can be okay especially against Dredge since it can be looped, but is kind of lacklustre against Reanimator variants)

I would separate these. I think we are very favored against Dredge with Containment Priests, Crypts/Leyline and other random hate, like EE for the Zombies.

I think we are unfavored against B/R Reanimator. I may be the only proponent of Crypt left, but the fact that they can't just T1 Reverent Silence away our hate matters. Containment Priest is good but not lights-out. I think we are slightly favored if we win the die-roll and unfavored if we lose it.

We have a much better matchup against U/B Reanimator. It is slower and Cavern helps us cast most of our disruptive pieces.

Sneak & Show (tough. Their kill is fast, gets around Chalice, but post-board we have a lot of good options)

Not a fun matchup at all. We can get lucky and combo them before they kill us, but their pieces are very redundant. I would say we are even more unfavored against Omni-builds.

There is honestly probably a lot more I am forgetting (Burn other fringe decks etc.) but hopefully we can get a very full primer up and running.

I think Burn is slightly favorable if we can find the right pieces. Chalice is great, Ballista to kill Eidelon is essential, and Prelate can really help. If they land an Eidelon and we have no way to get rid of it, we are in trouble. Chalice on 2 is more essential than on 1.

Sneak + Breach is very difficult with Chalice on zero, but we have some game if we run basics, get them, and can cast Containment Priest. Their actual GY hate is usually fairly minimal.

We are highly favored against Infect, although they can still sneak through some quick kills. I had the unfortunate chance to play against a double-Veridian Corruptor build of the deck and that certainly sucked.

We have a medium matchup against Aluren. They don't interact with our combo that well so it is usually just a race to combo-off first. Mentor is not great because of Strix and Abrupt Decay. The Food Chain matchup is pretty similar.

We are favored against fair Stoneblade / Deathblade decks. They have some disruption, but ways to blow up artifacts and EE to kill TNN is very good.

Obviously we are fairly unfavored against T1 combo like Belcher and Oops.

Aggro Loam is very difficult. Wasteland is very good against us and Loaming back Wasteland is even better. Chalice on zero sucks and they can eat our GY with Ooze. Swords post-board is also an annoyingly-efficient answer to Salvagers.

Deaths Shadow is favorable because Chalice on 1 and EE are very good against them.

Jund is not fun without the amount of removal. The combo is still generally online but they have the tools to clear our board.

Turbo Depths is a total toss-up. Chalice is great, but they can just make Marit Lage. We have on way to interact directly with their combo, so its really just a race.

12-Post is a surprisingly difficult (there are a bunch of players up near me). If we can find the combo in the first three turns, we win but they often have mainboard Pithing Needle, which means we need to find EE or just try to beat them down. Our plan B beat-down is not that great because of cards like Ugin or Moment's Peace out of the board.

Enchantress is definitely in our favor. EE and Chalice are both excellent. RiP is annoying, but we can generally do what we want combo-wise if they can't find it.

I have found Pox to be utterly miserable.

mambosong

03-21-2018, 11:34 PM

While reading over this week's issue of "This week in Legacy", it occurred to me that you could potentially build a mono-white bomberman list that runs Palace Jailer as the grinding card of choice instead of the 4-drop Karn or dark confidant. Although the weakness lies in it's heavy mana cost (4-drops should win the game amrite?), it does allow for a much more stable manabase, which can also support cards like Blessed Alliance very well, as well as other mono-white SB cards.

My only qualm is that you lose freebooter (and collective brutality if you run it, I don't own it sadly and regret not grabbing a few prior to it's spike), which has been key in winning many match ups since running him.

Anyone have thoughts on this?

03-22-2018, 06:24 AM

My only qualm is that you lose freebooter (and collective brutality if you run it, I don't own it sadly and regret not grabbing a few prior to it's spike), which has been key in winning many match ups since running him.

Anyone have thoughts on this?

Probably a bit of a dumb question, but why is Freebooter so good? I mean, it's not that different than Tidehollow Sculler and I don't recall that ever being so indispensable.

Bosque

03-22-2018, 07:43 AM

Probably a bit of a dumb question, but why is Freebooter so good? I mean, it's not that different than Tidehollow Sculler and I don't recall that ever being so indispensable.

Flies, and human for cavern which makes the mana cost much easier to handle as well as harder to disrupt.

03-22-2018, 08:21 AM

Flies, and human for cavern which makes the mana cost much easier to handle as well as harder to disrupt.

I had forgotten about the Cavern aspect, being a Human and all, but that makes sense. Honestly, Tidehollow being an Artifact is more of a liability than anything else, so trading that for a relevant type and flying seems pretty good. Too bad I own approximately zero cards from Ixalan, :laugh:

mambosong

03-22-2018, 07:51 PM

I had forgotten about the Cavern aspect, being a Human and all, but that makes sense. Honestly, Tidehollow being an Artifact is more of a liability than anything else, so trading that for a relevant type and flying seems pretty good. Too bad I own approximately zero cards from Ixalan, :laugh:

It's also relatively easy to cast turn 1 to take the opponents removal, following up with a turn 2 mentor and baubles letting you aggro out.

I'm going to test 2-3x palace jailer MB to see if there's anything there for that card in this deck. It'll make out Sneak and Show and Miracles match up easier (not that we necessarily had problems with either deck). I'm also going to test 2x blessed alliance in the SB since my meta is filled with lands / turbo depths players, which is nice to have incidental life gain against a future 20/20 attack and against burn.

mambosong

03-31-2018, 08:05 PM

Hey quick question here, with the reported success in this thread with both the WR and BW versions of this deck, is there any merit in running a WRB version that takes the best of both worlds to hedge a bigger win? I ask this, because I think the main advantage of running WR is tutoring a magus of the moon for a free win, which would be non-bo while running 3 colours, but I wonder if we can get away with it due to our mana rocks providing us colors (I often find that when the opponent sides in blood moon, i don't care and just keep playing as usual for the win in BW bomberman).

I'm thinking along the lines of this:

Creatures (22):
3x Auriok Salvagers
4x Monastery Mentor
4x Walking Ballista
3x Kitesail Freebooter
3x Dark Confidant
1x Magus of the Moon
4x Imperial Recruiter

Artifacts (20)
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Lotus Petal
3x Mishra's Bauble
3x Urza's Bauble
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
3x Mox Opal

Lands (18):
3x Cavern of Souls
3x Ancient Tomb
2x City of Traitors
3x Scrubland
2x Plateau
1x Plains
4x Fetch Lands

I'm still working on my playset of imperial recruiters, so I haven't tested this list yet, are there any obvious flaws you guys see?

cosmiccoil

04-05-2018, 09:02 PM

I'm still working on my playset of imperial recruiters, so I haven't tested this list yet, are there any obvious flaws you guys see?

A couple thoughts: without an Ancient Den, turning on Opal may be a bit more tricky, which is a problem if you plan to maindeck Magus of the Moon. In general I think maindeck Magus is questionable. Even if you fetch a plains first, the later Plateau to cast Magus means you will not have any black sources. Obviously Opal solves all of these problems, but it puts added pressure to maintain metalcraft throughout the rest of the match.

The flexibility of four Recruiters is certainly great, but it puts you a turn behind. I think you shouldn't try anything less than four Salvagers.

As to the possibility of a four-color build, I have had some success with an esper build that splashes blue for two Trinket Mages. I run a single Tundra, two Scrublands and three fetches, but I also run two Ancient Dens to help with the three Opals. I suggest running two Recruiters, a single Plateau and then two Scrubs with three Fetchlands or one Den and one Plains.

hofzge

04-12-2018, 08:53 AM

Next Game he goes Turn 0 leyline, T1 Chalice on zero -> manaRock. I had a recruiter and had to decide between recruiting Warpriest of Thune or Artifact destroyer, but it didn't matter becase next turn he helms me. :(

How did this work? Chalice counters Chalice...

hofzge

04-12-2018, 10:33 AM

Anyways going from ChemicalBurns' list in RW I wil probably play something similar to this in my LGS next week:
//Lands
2 Ancient Den
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Arid Mesa
2 Ash Barrens
4 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Traitors
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Plateau

//Spells
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lodestone Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Mox Opal
4 Urza's Bauble

//Creatures
3 Auriok Salvagers
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Magus of the Moon
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Walking Ballista

//Sideboard
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Manic Vandal
SB: 1 Devout Witness
SB: 1 Sanctum Prelate
SB: 1 Magus of the Moon
SB: 2 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 Fiery Confluence
SB: 1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

Avez

04-13-2018, 02:37 PM

Great list thanks! You wouldn't happen to have any sideboarding guide you use with this list? Going to play almost 1:1 list tomorrow and I'm so confused about what to take out and so on.

hofzge

04-19-2018, 03:52 AM

In the meantime I left the imperial Recruiter behind for the time being and tried some Monastery Mentor and I must say I am hooked. I played WB and I guess Dark Confidant and especially the plan B that Mentor provides are exactly what this deck needs IMHO. I would like to squeeze in 2 Recruiters, but I guess watering down the Mentor plan should not be the first step.

Here is Caleb's list from long ago with my own manabase and sideboard:

2 Ancient Den
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
3 Spire of Industry
1 Vault of Whispers

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Infernal Tutor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Mox Opal
4 Urza's Bauble

4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Dark Confidant
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Walking Ballista

Sideboard
2 Containment Priest
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Sanctum Prelate
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Karakas

The sideboard is a hot mess and I would really like to play Recruiters as they open up so many convenient sideboard options. I think that with Cavern/Spire/Opal we also have the mana to play non-BW spells consistently by maybe laying the fourth Spire of Industry.

cosmiccoil

04-20-2018, 09:11 AM

I have been experimenting with this UWB list for the last month, making various tweaks along the way, and wanted to share it in case anyone else wants to take it for a spin.

Creatures:19
4 Walking Ballista
4 Dark Confidant
4 Monastery Mentor
3 Trinket Mage
4 Auriok Salvagers

Spells:23
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mishra's Bauble
3 Mox Opal
4 Urza's Bauble

Lands:18
2 Ancient Den
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Traitors
1 Inventors' Fair
3 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra

Sideboard:15
2 Containment Priest
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Kitesail Freebooter
1 Meddling Mage
1 Devout Witness
1 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Michiko Konda, Truth Seeker
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ensnaring Bridge

A couple notes:
I have played a UW list, but not having access to pure card advantage is a problem, as is losing Pontiff and Kitesail from the board. Playing UWB provides a bunch of maindeck play, particularly because Trinket Mage can help to protect the combo by finding another Chalice or just finding a needed LED or Ballista. Being able to cut a LED for a maindeck EE and having three ways to tutor for it has worked great. Trinket Mage is also especially fun with an LED in play because it can be used as an uncounterable artifact-Infernal Tutor, such as by resolving Trinket, putting the trigger on the stack, tapping mana and sacrificing LEDs and then putting that mana into a searched-up Ballista. Playing Recruiter of the Guard in the board for a tutor-package has been fantastic. It helps a great deal in finding the right hate at the right time and in a grindy matchup can just be used to go find another Mentor. Overall, Recruiter of the Guard effectively satisfies most of the argument for running Imperial Recuiter in terms of SB flexibility, which is great because it decreases the need to run yet another color. The two Ensnaring Bridges feel like a necessary concession to decks like Lands, SnS, Turbo Depths and Eldrazi because it is necessary to buy time. This slot has been all over the place--from Cast Out to Swords--but Bridge ultimately feels like the best option. Obviously each of these decks that bridge comes in for can get rid of it, but at least it provides a defense to aggro decks trying to smash face. Some of the SB cards are somewhat weird but so far have worked. Michiko has been wonderful against aggro and delver decks. Devout Witness provides an out to a bunch of hate, including Leyline and RIP. It is also just great against DnT. Meddling Mage is just another uncounterable human that can disrupt an opponent (and provides one of the few ways to interact with the casting of creature spells that are not turned off by Chalice). So far the manabase has felt sufficient to support all three colors. There are seven non-white spells in the maindeck and four Caverns, three Opals, four petals and three fetches to find the right color at the right time. I understand the appeal of Spire, but the idea of taking even more damage than what is dealt by Ancient Tomb feels like a problem, particularly against Delver. Certainly Spire as a rainbow option is great, but so is being able to fetch a basic when all of the deck's colors are online. I could see the argument for another Opal, but it's a terrible card in multiples, particularly when the deck is one short of metalcraft early in the game and the only other artifact in hand is a second Opal. Lastly, there is no Lodestone Bauble in the list for a couple of reasons. Its capacity as an alternate win-con is very narrow. If an opponent has a chasm in play, it will still be possible to shoot them if they ever get rid of it in order to attack, unless for the unlikely instance in which they also have K Grip and there is only a single Ballista in play after going off. If an opponent is generally hexproof, EE provides a means to destroy whatever is enabling that hexproof ability. If Lodestone Bauble is there for when Ballista is surgical-ed then it is not that necessary because Mentor still provides an alternate win con. If they have gotten rid of Ballistas and Mentors but for some reason not LEDs, then the deck has probably already lost anyways. The only argument I see for Lodestone is just to play another Bauble (which is fair) but the idea that an opponent will get rid of Mentor and Ballista but somehow still let this deck keep LED and Salvagers is very unlikely. Plus in those cases it is still possible to draw most of the deck without Lodestone in order to play out a bunch of threats.

I would love to hear if anyone else has or will give this a go and how it turns out.

angelbaka

04-24-2018, 11:16 AM

Anyone gotten any significant testing in with the new karn, scion of urza? He's been petty fantastic for me, wondering if anyone else has results yet.

hofzge

04-25-2018, 08:26 AM

I have done some theoretical testing. Did you replace the Dark Confidants with him?

He is great as he offers yet another good alternative win condition playing with all those crappy baubles and then generating multiple big token beaters.

Coming from this colored list:
2 Ancient Den
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Karakas
2 Spire of Industry

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Mox Opal
4 Urza's Bauble

4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Dark Confidant
2 Imperial Recruiter
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Walking Ballista

Sideboard
2 Containment Priest
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Devout Witness
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Palace Jailer

For a Karn version I took Chemicalburn's monowhite approach and came to this similar list:

2 Ancient Den
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Karakas
4 Plains

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Karn, Scion of Urza
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Mox Opal
4 Urza's Bauble

4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Walking Ballista

Sideboard
3 Containment Priest
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Orzhov Pontiff
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Devout Witness
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Palace Jailer

Basically I replaced 4 Dark Confidant & 2 Imperial Recruiter by 3 Karn and 2 EE and a land.

Please generally disregard the sideboards as there is a lot of Sneak and Show, Reanimator and Elves played in my LGS. In general I would try and play one more Pontiff and maybe even some humans like Warpriest of Thune or Manic Vandal.

Things I am unsure of:
1. do we have enough gas?
2. Is EE good with such a monowhite manabase?
3. How good are splashed humans like Manic Vandal or Magus of the Moon?
4. Is the benefit of a few plains worth the loss in raw power of Dark confidant and Recruiter?

cosmiccoil

05-02-2018, 03:15 PM

I think you can run the Lodestone Bauble instead of the extra land. The fact that you get to run so many basics means there isn't as must of a need to have an additional land to defend against wasteland. I have found Recruiter of the Guard to be great in the board in my esper build; she seems particularly great in a mono-white build because it would give you more access to your sideboard hate cards. Just a thought.

ChemicalBurns

05-03-2018, 08:58 AM

4 Monastery Mentor
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Walking Ballista

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Mox Opal
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Urza's Bauble
1 Lodestone Bauble
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Karn, Scion of Urza

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Den
1 Karakas
1 Inventors' Fair
2 Plains

Sideboard
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Engineered Explosives

A solid 3-1 with Bomberman tonight. Here's the report.

Round 1: Turbo Depths

Game 1: On the play, I Chalice him on 1 off Den and Petal and play some trinkets, he passes, I crack trinkets, draw City, Opal and can cast a Chalice for two. Nothing in his deck works except natural combo (though he does natural Bog away my trinkets). I combo him on turn 3 anyway with Inventors' Fair - make Salvagers, make infinite mana with LED, then crack Inventors' Fair and Ballista his face.

+3 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Seal of Cleansing
+2 Sorcerous Spyglass
+1 Engineered Explosives
-4 Chalice of the Void
-4 Walking Ballista

As amazing Chalice was in g1, g2 on the draw I'm less enamoured. I'd adjust my sideboard in game three, if it comes to that.

Game 2: Ships passing in the night. He has land, I have Tomb, trinket, go, he EoT Crop Rots for DD, then next turn plays Urborg, Hexmage - we're going to die! I EoT crack trinket. Next turn, I play Lotus Petal, LED, City, Salvagers. Make infinite mana and then realise I can revive my Petal, upkeep draw my whole deck and then Plow his Marit Lage. I do that, then Lodestone Bauble him for the kill next turn.

Round 2: Death & Taxes

Game 1: Disgusting. I win the roll. Turn one Chalice, turn two Mentor + make three Monks, he t2 Stoneforges (gets Batterskull), I find an EE off cracked trinkets, have two Petals to Sunburst two and kill SFM in the same turn and smash in for a billion.

-4 Chalice of the Void
-2 Lion's Eye Diamond
-1 Lodestone Bauble
-1 Karn, Scion of Urza
+3 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Sorcerous Spyglass
+2 Seal of Cleansing
+1 Engineered Explosives

Note sure about this boarding. Chalice is an obvious out, and I like trimming LEDs and going for the grindy beatdown in this matchup. I think we really want Karn since he's all about our grind plan so... Maybe cut a deader card like an Opal? Not sure.

Game 2: He has t1 Vial, I have t1 land, go, he's screwed on mana, I play t2 Mentor and make some more Monks off trinkets and an Opal. He Vials in Mom, starts establishing a board with Thalia, but eventually I drop Karn and tick him up. He finds an Opal and an EE! I get given the Opal, but eventually the EE wipes the Mom and Vial, I Plow Thalia, Pontiff wipes my board, but Karn creating an artifact leads to Metalcraft reoccuring and then a Salvagers able to legend-loop Opals until my opponent dies to a sea of Monks. Neat.

Round 3: Grixis Delver

Game 1: Disgusting. On the play, Chalice into turn three Salvagers with double LED on the table and a Ballista in the bin. GG.

-2 Lion's Eye Diamond
-1 Karn, Scion of Urza
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Engineered Explosives

Maybe cut an additional Karn for the fourth Plow? Seems a bit clunky, and counterable unlike out other powerhouses.

Game 2: He starts on land, go, after Probing me. He sees my Chalice, Ballista and Salvagers. I smell a Spell Pierce! So I turn one Ballista, which he Brainstorms then actually Forces! Turns out (he tells me afterwards) he needed to preserve his Pyromancer. Fair enough. Next turn he still holds up Pierce, so I don't play into it again and play (off a Cavern) a freshly draw Mentor. I play Opal after that which he burns his Pierce on. Next turn I Chalice him, cast a Petal, smash in with Monks and the game soon ends.

Round 4: Infect

Game 1: On the draw he casts an Elf. I turn one Chalice him. He plays a Hierarch into it to test me, pokes me for one and plays an Inkmoth. I play a Mentor on turn two, he then activates Inkmoth and double Invigorates me. Okay then.

Boarded like this:
-2 Lion's Eye Diamond
-3 Karn, Scion of Urza
-1 Lodestone Bauble
+3 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Sorcerous Spyglass
+1 Engineered Explosives

Actually should've boarded in Seal of Cleansing over the Spyglasses. As we'll soon see.

Game 2: I turn one Chalice. Yeap. Then turn two, Cavern on Construct, Ballista on one. He then turn two... Null Rods me. My hand (and the Ancient Den in play) soon do nothing. I die to a slow death by Inkmoth and Blighted Agent. Sad.

I think the Infect matchup was very unlucky (Game 1 I think my hand is very good, my opponent's was just absurd and Null Rod is just generally very unlucky) but otherwise the deck works like a charm. Especially against most of the fair decks. I think my sideboard needs a bit of work, so I'll be looking to honing in on that. The Recruiter of the Guard sideboard sounds a bit exciting... Not sure how I'd construct it, but I'll give it a think in the weeks to come.

Also will repost the benefits of this list over splash versions I feel that I posted on reddit:

I think this is a GREAT Karn shell. And slimming down Bomberman to mono-White provides us with so so much. Firstly:

- Mox Opal has always been a bit of an issue as a repeatable mana source in Bomberman. Now with room for Ancient Den, the Opals are almost always on.
- With Opal on more often, I've bumped up the number of sol lands. This is great for a few reasons. Ideally, you can get some disgusting turn two Karn action going, or just the usual busted Mentor stuff.
- Speaking of Karn, this deck makes some disgustingly large tokens with all the cantrip rocks lying around. Also, the deck is incredibly redundant - hitting a cantrip rock is very serviceable.

I can't wait to keep testing him. The card is great. It only suffers in unfair matchups, obviously, but at least you can beat down with a big token there too.

maxtopig

05-07-2018, 12:35 AM

I took @ChemicalBurns' exact list to a local three-rounder this past Saturday, though with a tweaked board that looked like this:

3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Containment Priest (lots of Reanimator/Tin Fins/Sneak in the local meta)
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Unexpectedly Absent (Wanted to test this out due to the uptick in Depths decks; never came in, and the color requirement is too high, so I'd probably swap to another Spyglass)

I went 2-1, beating Dredge and Mono-Blue Painter each in two games, then losing to my buddy on Grixis Delver in a close three. (I kept a very questionable hand game three that I wouldn't keep again in hindsight; he quickly figured out my deck and played tight the whole time to keep me off mana and get a much-deserved win.)

I played a couple W/B lists with Dark Confidant last year and had some success, but I shelved it due to poor Sneak & Show and Blood Moon Stompy matchups. While I didn't face either of those matchups here, overall I found this version of the deck to run much smoother due to the reduced color requirements.

Also, I never lost when I resolved a Karn. Card is an absolute house, but since he brings the deck's average CMC up, it's more important than ever to protect your mana base. Not sure if it's worth going up another land, and I definitely wouldn't want to cut down from 9 baubles. For what it's worth, Inventor's Fair also performed well, fetching up LEDs to combo out and even a timely Tormod's Crypt vs. Dredge. Remember you can sack LEDs in response to the ability to create mana for things like Ballista if you're looking to push through the last couple points of damage.

I'll be playing this deck more in the coming weeks as my schedule allows. Excited for the potential here.

Edit: I also played a couple practice matches versus Grixis Delver (different player) before the tournament began. I think the matchup is significantly in Bomberman's favor Game 1, but most Delver lists these days have a lot to bring in against the deck (Ancient Grudge being great and Cabal Therapy being especially effective, since it's pretty easy for us to get payoff cards like Salvagers and Karn stuck in hand for a turn). I think that evens out the matchup considerably for them, though I want to test more before drawing a big conclusion and seeing if we need to modify as a result.

hofzge

05-07-2018, 05:30 AM

maxtopig

05-07-2018, 10:56 AM

Why do you both play Seal of cleansing, when Oblivion Ring/Cast Out is a lot better vs. Sneak and Show?

Great question. Four reasons:

1. Mana is very, very tight in this deck (hence why I'm considering going up to 20 lands). The extra mana costs of Oblivion Ring and especially Cast Out are prohibitive IMHO. This is a combo deck with an alternative gameplan, and removal normally functions to take out opposing lock pieces or anything on the board trying to stall you from comboing. I think our answers should be lean.

2. Not a knock against Cast Out, obviously, but being able to remove something at the end of opponent's turn is often very important.

3. Seal of Cleansing doesn't need a target on the opponent's board to be played, meaning it can be an effective way to trigger prowess when you need more and bigger Monks. In testing the deck last year, this came up more often that I thought it might, as one of your "combos" is just assembling a critical mass of non-creature spells to play with a Mentor on board.

4. When I kill something with this deck, I generally want it dead. Though it's not common, the other enchantment-based removal mentioned can be removed, leaving you back at square one.

Of course, Ring and Cast Out are both more flexible as far as their ability to remove opposing threats and locks pieces, so there's certainly a tradeoff. Because of the above, I just happen to think Seal of Cleansing is the superior board card (for now).

Other card I might try testing as a one-of maindeck: Mind Stone. Some mana acceleration that also triggers prowess, makes Karn tokens bigger, and potentially digs a card deeper. Might be way too off the wall/too slow in this format, but I might try slotting one in to see how I like it.

maxtopig

05-07-2018, 12:04 PM

First appearance of Bomberman (to my knowledge) in an MTGO Legacy Challenge!

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2018-05-07

Never thought I'd see this one online since playing takes a nearly prohibitive number of clicks (at least that's my impression).

Interesting list with no artifact lands, and I guess I wasn't the only one considering Mind Stone main. May give this a whirl, though I think I'd immediately miss the Ancient Dens for turning on Opal. And Inventor's Fair has just been too good for me to cut.

ChemicalBurns

05-07-2018, 09:16 PM

3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Containment Priest (lots of Reanimator/Tin Fins/Sneak in the local meta)
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Unexpectedly Absent (Wanted to test this out due to the uptick in Depths decks; never came in, and the color requirement is too high, so I'd probably swap to another Spyglass)

Just a note about the sideboard moving forward - we need to play Sanctum Prelate over Canonist. Losing to Hurkyl's is so, so, brutal and we also need a fair bit of help in the S&S matchup where Canonist is very medium and Prelate can be game-winning.

Also, Spyglass has been stellar for me. There have been times where I've Inventors' Faired for it too.

About Seal...

Great question. Four reasons:

1. Mana is very, very tight in this deck (hence why I'm considering going up to 20 lands). The extra mana costs of Oblivion Ring and especially Cast Out are prohibitive IMHO. This is a combo deck with an alternative gameplan, and removal normally functions to take out opposing lock pieces or anything on the board trying to stall you from comboing. I think our answers should be lean.

2. Not a knock against Cast Out, obviously, but being able to remove something at the end of opponent's turn is often very important.

3. Seal of Cleansing doesn't need a target on the opponent's board to be played, meaning it can be an effective way to trigger prowess when you need more and bigger Monks. In testing the deck last year, this came up more often that I thought it might, as one of your "combos" is just assembling a critical mass of non-creature spells to play with a Mentor on board.

4. When I kill something with this deck, I generally want it dead. Though it's not common, the other enchantment-based removal mentioned can be removed, leaving you back at square one.

Of course, Ring and Cast Out are both more flexible as far as their ability to remove opposing threats and locks pieces, so there's certainly a tradeoff. Because of the above, I just happen to think Seal of Cleansing is the superior board card (for now).

Agree on all these points. Seal also is very valuable against Stompy by coming down on t1 before a Moon/Chalice/whatever screws your ability to cast things. I think the biggest reason is being able to trigger Mentor, too. Sometime you just need one non-creature spell to win.

I like Cast Out quite a bit though as a slow but reasonable answer to Marit Lage in addition to other things, of course. Any grindy matchup I will bring it, since it can always be cycled too. I've been playing it as a consistent one-of flex in my SB.

Also, I never lost when I resolved a Karn. Card is an absolute house, but since he brings the deck's average CMC up, it's more important than ever to protect your mana base. Not sure if it's worth going up another land, and I definitely wouldn't want to cut down from 9 baubles. For what it's worth, Inventor's Fair also performed well, fetching up LEDs to combo out and even a timely Tormod's Crypt vs. Dredge. Remember you can sack LEDs in response to the ability to create mana for things like Ballista if you're looking to push through the last couple points of damage.

Ancient Den making our Mox Opals more consistent also sort-of adds to the mana, in my mind, as older lists did not have it as a consistent mana source (it was more like a Lotus Petal effect). I think 19 lands (with the one-of Fair as a split between tutor and land) is perfect. Original lists actually used to play eighteen!

First appearance of Bomberman (to my knowledge) in an MTGO Legacy Challenge!

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2018-05-07

Never thought I'd see this one online since playing takes a nearly prohibitive number of clicks (at least that's my impression).

Interesting list with no artifact lands, and I guess I wasn't the only one considering Mind Stone main. May give this a whirl, though I think I'd immediately miss the Ancient Dens for turning on Opal. And Inventor's Fair has just been too good for me to cut.

I think not playing Dens is a mistake, it really adds consistency to your Opals. I do like the idea of Horizon Canopy though, but does add to the pain of an already suffering mana base.

Anyway, updated list:

4 Monastery Mentor
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Walking Ballista

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Mox Opal
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Urza's Bauble
1 Lodestone Bauble
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Karn, Scion of Urza

4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Den
1 Inventors' Fair
4 Plains

Sideboard
2 Containment Priest
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Warping Wail
1 Cast Out
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Swords to Plowshares/Blessed Alliance

Changed the mana around a little (died to Dragon Stompy's Moon's too much, which seemed silly for a Mono-White deck, but Chalice on Zero turning off rocks into Moon is real). I'm playing around with the idea of Warping Wail after realising our Storm and S&S matchup is suffering a bit, while also having cross utility against Delver and D&T. The last slot is really additional removal that can also deal with Marit Lage. Blessed Alliance I think is interesting since I also found us very weak to TNN.

I'm not really set on the Mind Stone, but I guess it does have a similar power level to a Signet which I've considered playing in multi-colour versions. Sacrificing MD EE for it though is not where I want to be - EE is one of the best Fair tutor targets and natural draws.

hofzge

05-08-2018, 06:39 AM

4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Den
1 Inventors' Fair
4 Plains

Changed the mana around a little (died to Dragon Stompy's Moon's too much, which seemed silly for a Mono-White deck, but Chalice on Zero turning off rocks into Moon is real).

I can see that you want to play as many white sources as possible, but I really don't like cutting the 3rd City as T2 Karn is so strong. Moon Stompy is a poor matchup anyways with Trinisphere, Chalice on 0 and Moon ruining our day, so that I would not sacrifice percentage versus other decks where an early Karn is devastating.

themtgzealot

05-08-2018, 08:52 AM

Is EE that good with only access to limited colours ?

Tempted to just play 4x Karn card seems busted in this deck.

ChemicalBurns

05-08-2018, 09:01 AM

Is EE that good with only access to limited colours ?

Tempted to just play 4x Karn card seems busted in this deck.

Thanks

Pete

It really is a great flex slot. It:

Kills really frustrating zero drops (importantly, Chalice when cast for X = 1 but Sunburst zero) that appear in people's main.
Kills creatures, particularly vs. Grixis Delver can clean up Deathrite and Delver or sweep away Pyromancer tokens.
Can be re-bought with Salvagers. This is also important when you get into weird spots where you can generate infinite mana but not be able to kill through things like Solitary Confinement + Leyline of Sanctity etc. Just make all the colours with LED and loop EE until the world blows up.
Is a really easy way to not only clear the way for Mentor, but also trigger Mentor, typically for free.
Excellent Inventors' Fair target to clear away whatever rubbish is stopping you from comboing.
EE for two is very achievable with Petals and Opals, and doesn't come as needed as much as you'd think. EE for 3 is a stretch but can occur often in Blood Moon matchups.

Karn is very good, but it is a very slow, mana-intensive card. When you combo quickly you'll find Karn is the card that rots in your hand and gets discarded to LED. I think 4 may be a little too many, but give it a shot and see how it goes. I'm willing to be wrong, coz the card is very, very good.

themtgzealot

05-08-2018, 09:17 AM

It really is a great flex slot. It:

Kills really frustrating zero drops (importantly, Chalice when cast for X = 1 but Sunburst zero) that appear in people's main.
Kills creatures, particularly vs. Grixis Delver can clean up Deathrite and Delver or sweep away Pyromancer tokens.
Can be re-bought with Salvagers. This is also important when you get into weird spots where you can generate infinite mana but not be able to kill through things like Solitary Confinement + Leyline of Sanctity etc. Just make all the colours with LED and loop EE until the world blows up.
Is a really easy way to not only clear the way for Mentor, but also trigger Mentor, typically for free.
Excellent Inventors' Fair target to clear away whatever rubbish is stopping you from comboing.
EE for two is very achievable with Petals and Opals, and doesn't come as needed as much as you'd think. EE for 3 is a stretch but can occur often in Blood Moon matchups.

Karn is very good, but it is a very slow, mana-intensive card. When you combo quickly you'll find Karn is the card that rots in your hand and gets discarded to LED. I think 4 may be a little too many, but give it a shot and see how it goes. I'm willing to be wrong, coz the card is very, very good.

Yea good point does some have valid uses and I have been on board with Sanctum Prelate for some time as Chalice 5-6 - very nice with cavern on human.

Probably 4 karn would require going up to 4 cities to maximize the potential turn 2s - which increases the chance of awkward hands.

I'm considering taking a list very close to this to GP Birmingham - how bad is the Mono R prison MU ?

Got put off Eldrazi as it just can't beat Mono R which I am expecting a lot of.

aromaticity

05-08-2018, 09:37 AM

I'm considering taking a list very close to this to GP Birmingham - how bad is the Mono R prison MU ?

Got put off Eldrazi as it just can't beat Mono R which I am expecting a lot of.

It's pretty miserable. Easily the worst MU for the deck, I think.

At a big event, I wouldn't really worry about it and just hope to dodge. Locally when we do manage to fire events mono red is super popular for whatever reason - we allow infinite proxies, so it's not a price thing. Very unfortunate.

ChemicalBurns

05-09-2018, 09:09 AM

It's pretty miserable. Easily the worst MU for the deck, I think.

At a big event, I wouldn't really worry about it and just hope to dodge. Locally when we do manage to fire events mono red is super popular for whatever reason - we allow infinite proxies, so it's not a price thing. Very unfortunate.

It's our worst mmatchup by far. You can get through sometimes with a busted Mentor draw (and then see Bridge, ugh), but almost never expect to combo between Chalice, Leylines, 3Ball etc. Karn really helps out in this matchup though to find EE or other artifact/enchantment destruction, especially with Chandra and Confluence unable to pressure him.

maxtopig

05-09-2018, 10:36 AM

I've been trying out @ChemicalBurns sideboard with Sanctum Prelate, and I agree the card seems like the real deal. It most definitely deserves its spot as a two-of.

The big issue I've been facing in recent testing is STILL the Sneak & Show matchup, which inevitably seems to take Game 1 (barring a FAST combo on our part, which they can normally stop with plenty of counter magic) then fights through at least one hate piece post-board. I'm still running a single Karakas main, and that's far and away the best draw we have against them, it seems. I may consider going up an additional one in the board, though the numbers are already feel pretty tight!

hofzge

05-09-2018, 05:07 PM

The big issue I've been facing in recent testing is STILL the Sneak & Show matchup, which inevitably seems to take Game 1 (barring a FAST combo on our part, which they can normally stop with plenty of counter magic) then fights through at least one hate piece post-board. I'm still running a single Karakas main, and that's far and away the best draw we have against them, it seems. I may consider going up an additional one in the board, though the numbers are already feel pretty tight!

This has been exactly my experience. Locally we have multiple people who sometimes play S&S and that is why I still have 2 Oring in the board despite them being worse than seal of Cleansing in most other matchups. Sanctum Prelate is nice, but against many decks he is slow due to WW in the casting cost. I lost to storm last week and I feel there he is a mediocre replacement for canonist even if once he is in play a lot is good (the way to get there is very hard especially with a perceived change to more TES).

mambosong

05-09-2018, 07:11 PM

The big issue I've been facing in recent testing is STILL the Sneak & Show matchup, which inevitably seems to take Game 1 (barring a FAST combo on our part, which they can normally stop with plenty of counter magic) then fights through at least one hate piece post-board. I'm still running a single Karakas main, and that's far and away the best draw we have against them, it seems. I may consider going up an additional one in the board, though the numbers are already feel pretty tight!

Weird, how are you guys side boarding? I've yet to lose the S&S MU and my opponents tend to think its unwinnable. Chalice shuts off cantrips and spyglass hoses sneak attack. S&T helps us combo off without mana to cast salvagers the turn after too, plus we have 1 or 2 Karakas MB. :S Also, kitesail freebooter comes down turn 1 or 2 to take half of their combo piece. Maybe I've been lucky in my small sample size but have gone 2-0 against that deck more than a handful of times.

ChemicalBurns

05-10-2018, 03:36 AM

This has been exactly my experience. Locally we have multiple people who sometimes play S&S and that is why I still have 2 Oring in the board despite them being worse than seal of Cleansing in most other matchups. Sanctum Prelate is nice, but against many decks he is slow due to WW in the casting cost. I lost to storm last week and I feel there he is a mediocre replacement for canonist even if once he is in play a lot is good (the way to get there is very hard especially with a perceived change to more TES).

I think Sanctum is more than just "nice". Prelate + Chalice makes us less prone to Hurkyl's Recall which is otherwise a complete blowout (getting lands bounced is... Sad). Prelate also is a very relevant card vs. S&T unlike Canonist. Also note that with the mono-White mana base the issues with its casting cost is remedied quite a bit. Opal is actually stellar in terms of letting us get it out on turn two despite it not being Ancient Tomb-able.

Weird, how are you guys side boarding? I've yet to lose the S&S MU and my opponents tend to think its unwinnable. Chalice shuts off cantrips and spyglass hoses sneak attack. S&T helps us combo off without mana to cast salvagers the turn after too, plus we have 1 or 2 Karakas MB. :S Also, kitesail freebooter comes down turn 1 or 2 to take half of their combo piece. Maybe I've been lucky in my small sample size but have gone 2-0 against that deck more than a handful of times.

Yeah, I think S&T is a fine matchup - I'd prefer to play it than against Storm. Pre-board I feel we are unfavoured (as most Stompy decks are) but between Prelate, Containment Priest, Spyglass and ORing effects we tend to have a lot against them post-board. And yes, be ready to put Salvagers in resp. to Show & Tell and combo off the next turn!

ChemicalBurns

05-11-2018, 01:23 AM

Report from yesterday... 3-1 again, losing in the final round. Can't get that clean sweep!

4 Monastery Mentor
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Walking Ballista

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Mox Opal
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Urza's Bauble
1 Lodestone Bauble
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Karn, Scion of Urza

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Den
1 Inventors' Fair
3 Plains

Sideboard
2 Containment Priest
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Cast Out
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Swords to Plowshares

Round 1: Czech Pile

Game 1: I think I got Hymned, forced him to burn a Force on my Mentor. I played a Salvagers, it got Edicted. I found a Chalice and set it to two to stop the Snapcaster Mage into Edict for another Salvagers I had. I then comboed out.

-2 Lion's Eye Diamond
-4 Chalice of the Void
-1 Lodestone Bauble
+2 Sorcerous Spyglass
+3 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Cast Out
+1 Engineered Explosives

Game 2: He opens I Deathrite, I Spyglass the Deathrite. I have another Spyglass and hit the leftover fetch in his hand. He has Sylvan Library going though, so I get a bit down on cards comparatively, but his low life total starts to make Mentor look menacing. The Mentor gets killed at some stage though (or countered, can't remember). My Spyglass on DRS gets blown up at some stage and my life total is being pressured... But I end up again topdecking Salvagers with LED on the table and pseudo-combo out, drawing my whole deck and having mana up to Plow his DRS on his upkeep. I also could've done some fancier stuff - upkeep crack LED on the table, draw deck, Cast Out the Library and Plow DRS to really cut off his outs. Anyway, topdeck Salvagers gets there.

Round 2: BUG Control

Game 1: I remember this being quite close with TNN and Strix pressuring a Karn, who drew a fair amount of cards, giving me an LED (my opponent had choice between LED and Mentor, gave me LED) until Karn died. At some stage I found a Ballista to blow up the board of Strix and DRS. Eventually though, although my life total dwindled because TNN, I found the combo and Ballistaed my opponent to death.

-2 Lion's Eye Diamond
-4 Chalice of the Void
-1 Lodestone Bauble
+2 Sorcerous Spyglass
+3 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Cast Out
+1 Engineered Explosives

Game 2: Similar to game 1, my opponent burns a lot of resources countering Karn, Mentor etc. but I have double Salvagers in hand ready to combo. Turns out he draws bricks after all his FoWs and therefore I combo out freely.

Round 3: Punishing Maverick

Game 1: Is disgusting! I have a Chalice on one into a Mentor into a lot of trinkets into Karn into more trinkets and then my opponent is dead. My opponent had a Mother of Runes and Hierarch to show for his efforts. Maybe a different story if he had PFire and not Plow for the Mentor, as Chalice surprisingly did work.

-4 Chalice of the Void
-2 Lion's Eye Diamond
-1 Lodestone Bauble
+3 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Sorcerous Spyglass
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Cast Out

This sideboarding is looking pretty common...

Game 2: A massive slugfest, with my Mentors being checked by PFires, my opponent's Library and SFM blown up by an EE and a SoLaS that SFM found checked by an Inventors' Fair tutored Sorcerous Spyglass. I started to take over the game with Karn, but screwed up by ticking him down and playing my Mentor into a Plow I knew... The Plow got my opponent back both his PFires to kill my Karn. Anyway, eventually I comboed out and killed my opponent. Phew.

Round 4: Grixis Delver

Game 1: I'm on the draw, keep a turn two Mentor hand with the turn three Salvagers. This cannot beat my opponent's turn two TNN. I'm realising more and more we're super soft to that card - Holy Light is looking appealing... I think I definitely should've mulliganed my hand though. It's just too slow.

-2 Lion's Eye Diamond
-1 Lodestone Bauble
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Engineered Explosives

I think this is wrong. I should've done this:

-2 Lion's Eye Diamond
-1 Lodestone Bauble
-1 Karn, Scion of Urza
+3 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Engineered Explosives

We need to just be less clunky and kill their early threats with Ballista/Plow/EE. I know Plow looks weird, but vs. Delver we should be seeing Chalice as more of a mid-game lock piece, especially when on the draw, and clean up the board before we worry about locking them out. Put them on the back foot by killing whatever turn one threat they have ASAP. I could see trimming more and more Karns in this MU as he's very clunky and gets slammed right into Daze unlike our Human threats. Maybe even Prelate is an option in this matchup...

Game 2: Again we're on the ropes but we eventually assemble the combo with a known Surgical in my opponent's hand. As such, I play Salvagers out but not LED because if LED gets countered the combo gets entirely stopped by countering LED > Surgical it. Next turn with four mana up, I play LED, my opponent realises that I can beat Surgical very easily, ends up Surgicalling my Ballista and then I play a Mentor and then go through making infinite Monks.

Game 3: Turn one DRS for my opponent and this soon becomes a big issue with my mana assaulted by Wasteland (one hitting an Ancient Den turning off my Opal, and another Opal in hand, basically double Stone Raining me) and me having to play through a Daze I know. Delver joins the party and I can't get mana online to do anything. I soon die.

Dying to Grixis Delver is sad, but I think it's all about the early turns, honestly, and being able to beat their on-board idiots before they get setup. As I mentioned, Plow is excellent to prevent that. Declaration in Stone is an option that is synergistic with Chalice, and Blessed Alliance can beat a lonely True-Name (but looks silly vs. Pyromancer, though Pyromancer is very easy to counter with Ballista). I think we need Plow for the Marit Lage decks too so yeap.

Anyway, deck is very awesome but I think the BUG and Czech matchups were close and I got a little lucky there. Maverick (and D&T) are feeling easier and easier with Mentor + Karn as a powerful engine. Grixis Delver typically feels easy but I felt on the ropes here being on the draw and them able to come out ahead early. I'll be playing the same 75 (maybe) through a seven-rounder tomorrow and will report how I go.

aromaticity

05-11-2018, 04:00 PM

I managed to get a bunch of games in last night. No event, just playing with people. I was running Sean's list, swapping Fair for Karakas in the main and with a 2/1 split of Swords/Wail in the board.

Karn is just... wow. I didn't really have any doubts about the power level of the card in this shell, it's fairly obvious that it's going to be great. My big reservations were finding room for the card, and cutting Confidant to do so. I was excited to try Freebooter in the deck, but was on a long Magic hiatus and never ended up testing that list. I'm still a bit iffy on the current list, mostly because we have slightly less 'gas' than before (simply because we have 3 Karns, and before we had 4 Confidant). But Karn has really, really impressed me. More than I initially expected, to be honest.

I played against 4c Pile, Grixis Delver a few times, D&T, a 'big' D&T list with sol lands and chrome mox but seemingly without Chalice?, R sneak/breach without Moons and splashing a single Volc for S&T, Maverick, some weird mono blue artifact control deck, Tin Fins, Miracles & Nic Fit.

The Pile matchup felt very good. In general I'm a fan of the MU against the various UBx decks - they often rely hard on Force to keep us in check, and Cavern really screws with that plan. Grixis Delver is a MU where I feel favored, but only by a bit. They're just much more likely to kill us before we can combo/kill them compared to Pile and other durdly BUGx decks. I believe I was 1-2 vs Grixis on the night.

My other losses were to the R breach deck and the sol D&T deck. Vs the breach deck we played twice and I got the first match in a fairly regular fashion. I thought he was just S&T after G1 since I ended up comboing in the face of an Emrakul after S&T. G2 he made me feel silly about my Chalices I left in and ended up killing me with Inferno Titan, but G3 I combo'd him fairly quickly. The second match was very disappointing, however. I T1 Salvagers into T2 Salvagers in G1 with an LED, but manage to not draw any of the seventeen cards which win me the game. I even had a Karn going digging for a 'wincon'. G2 I had double STP in hand but opened on Cavern instead of Ancient Den for some reason, and my opponent went T1 Tomb SSG Seething Song Breach Worldspine Wurm.

Vs the 'big' D&T deck, I had a T2 combo... but was on the Draw and he had T2 Thalia HC. I even had a T1 EE on 2 to deal with an OG Thalia since he opened on Plains pass. I needed to rip a Plains or Lotus Petal to win, but didn't get there and effectively lost to multiple Wastelands. G2 he ends up going T3 Angel of Sanctions into T4 Angel of Sanctions vs my hand which was just too fair despite the T2 Karn. I do expect that these decks play Chalice but given that my opponent kept a seven that couldn't have beaten a fast combo in G2 and that G1 lasted forever as he killed me with just THC beats, maybe he didn't have it?

Interesting notes from the matches I won:

Vs Tin Fins I won G1 after going T1 Chalice 1, T2 Chalice 2, T3 drop Karakas. Opponent managed to get to six mana before I could find a threat, but that didn't really matter thanks to Karakas. G2 they ended up going off, but had trouble finding the Tendrils for the win. They had previously Thoughtsiezed a Sanctum Prelate and had cracked an LED in response to their own Living Wish for Children of Korlis, having whiffed on finding one with their Grisel. They only had Exhume as a reanimation spell for bringing it back... which brought back my Prelate, naming 4. They had four Decay in the yard already and could only get up to 13 mana, unable to hardcast Emrakul.

Vs Miracles, I combo quickly in G1 thanks to Chalice. G2 I got to win solely off of two Ballista + Cavern. We got in a staring match where I would spend my whole turn pumping the ballista by one and attacking, and they I guess didn't want to use their removal (or didn't have it, but they were playing like they did). I ended up killing them from around ten life by dropping two opals and three petals for a huge, uncounterable second ballista. Cool.

The Maverick match was the most fun and interesting game I played. A lot of the fair matchups are very enjoyable when they don't involve the combo and the opponent doesn't have specific hate (i.e. chalice, null rod). G1 was typical combo them out stuff. G2 I drew all four of my Ballista! I ended up using two of them to kill a birds and a Dryad Arbor after my opponent dropped Gaea's Cradle, and lost a third to a Pridemage. The fourth couldn't get there vs his board of Thalia, Teeg and an SFM after he waste landed me below four mana. I was really worried about his mana production after he dropped Cradle, but cutting him from seven mana a turn to three really doesn't matter when he's drawing one card a turn. I think if I had just held my ballistae I could have easily one. Which brings us to G3. I get a fast Karn + Ballista. My opponent deploys a Thalia and thanks to a Bauble I know they have Jitte. I end up intentionally leaving Thalia on board the whole game, as it 1. let me keep my Ballista and 2. they couldn't play and equip Jitte at any point because of the Thalia tax. They had to use Decays and Pridemage to deal with the tokens I was pumping out with Karn, and meanwhile I was pinging their Birds and other little guys with Ballista every turn to keep them off of mana and bodies for Jitte. They likely had an easy route to victory if they didn't play Thalia and could have just thrown bodies with a Jitte attached at me until victory.

Going forward, I think I do want to try Fair, as I haven't yet played it in the deck. I am hesitant about cutting white sources when running Prelate in the board, so I think I will try going down to two City of Traitors for now and see how it plays out.

ChemicalBurns

05-12-2018, 09:48 PM

Have a big report from yesterday's 42-player sanctioned in Melbourne, Australia. Took the deck to an okay 4-2, but lost some matches I felt I definitely could've gotten there if the odds were more in my favour.

Same list as before:

4 Monastery Mentor
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Walking Ballista

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Mox Opal
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Urza's Bauble
1 Lodestone Bauble
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Karn, Scion of Urza

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Den
1 Inventors' Fair
3 Plains

Sideboard
2 Containment Priest
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Cast Out
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Swords to Plowshares

On to the matches:

Round 1: Miracles

Game 1: I'm against a good friend of mine and he is sad to see me about to "ape" him out. On the draw, I t1 Chalice and he passes the Force check. Then I play a Salvagers... With another Salvagers, LED and Karn in my hand (and an Urza's Bauble in the bin). This gets Plowed and then he cantrips around leaving up one mana. I play my second Salvagers and decide that I'm going to go for the combo; it's unlikely he has exactly a second Plow, though if he does I lose my Karn to the LED discard. He doesn't have Plow and I kill him.

-3 Walking Ballista
-2 Lion's Eye Diamond
-1 Lodestone Bauble
-1 Mox Opal
-1 Lotus Petal
+2 Sorcerous Spyglass
+2 Seal of Cleansing
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Cast Out
+2 Sanctum Prelate

Not sure how we're feeling about Ballista in this MU. I like that he can pressure Jace and clean a board of Snappy's and friends, but with Spyglass and Cast Out in the deck we have cleaner answer to the big boy anyway. I kept one as a Fair target.

Game 2: I really, really derp my opponent out here. He starts on Volc, Ponder, I t1 Spyglass him. He has a Strand in hand as his only land and I name it. His hand is really gasoline - a Disenchant, Counterbalance, etc. - but he Brainstorms, finds another Strand as his only other land and I'm free to combo next turn through his Force via Cavern. Gross.

Round 2: Czech Pile

Game 1: My hand very quickly gets shredded apart and a Leovold sitting on the table means my Salvagers, although looping Baubles, can only crack one per turn and hence it takes me a long time to churn through my library and alleviate the pressure. I whiff and draw not much and die. Leovold sucks. I also remember missequencing my lands and getting Stone Rained via Kolaghan's Command twice on my Ancient Den. Sucks. Note to self, expose artifact lands to destruction as little as possible, please.

-4 Chalice of the Void
-2 Lion's Eye Diamond
-1 Lodestone Bauble
+2 Sorcerous Spyglass
+3 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Cast Out
+1 Engineered Explosives

Game 2: My opponent can't really develop their mana and I'm struggling to turn on a Mox Opal. My opponent ends up having three Deathrites... That I EE for 1 and all kill. After that I play Salvagers and Mentor and they clean it up with trinket loops.

Game 3: I mull to six and have double Spyglass. Turns out it doesn't do much, the first one naming Delta and the second one, since my opponent doesn't have early DRS, names Jace. Turns out I'm an idiot and I die to, again, late game Deathrite + Leovold slowing my bauble loops and Tomb damage adding up. Notably, Karn kept getting ripped away in these matchups by discard, but I suppose that left me able to have both Salvagers and Karn as high-impact threats. Anyway, sad times.

Round 3: Turbo Depths

Game 1: This matchup is really boring. I mull to five, have turn one Chalice on one, play my third land, play a Ballista, he passes. I brick on my fourth mana source to play Chalice on 2 and completely lock him out, and then he plays Hexmage, Depths and kills me. So, so close.

-4 Walking Ballista
-3 Karn, Scion of Urza
-2 ?
+3 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Sorcerous Spyglass
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Cast Out
+2 Seal of Cleansing

I'm so iffy on the board plan here. I know I left in Chalices in g2 (despite the dissynergy with Plow) but I usually cut them on the draw. Perhaps I didn't bring in the Seals g2? I can't remember.

Game 2: I have Spyglass and Plow for all his Stages in hand, but he has Decay for my Spyglass. He also has a Duress for my Plow. The rest of his hand is fast mana. He strips my Plow, Decays my Spyglass and then topdecks a tutor and kills me while I flood out. Okay.

Round 4: BUG Control

Game 1: A Chalice on one leads to a Mentor going unchecked and then a Salvagers joins the party. TNN ends up on blocking duty for my opponent while the Monk army crashes in thanks to Bauble loops.

-4 Chalice of the Void
-2 Lion's Eye Diamond
-1 Lodestone Bauble
+2 Sorcerous Spyglass
+3 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Cast Out
+1 Engineered Explosives

Game 2: Honestly, I think the same thing happens, though a Karn that I could've turn oned (off of two Lotus Petals that were my only white sources - seemed like a bad idea especially when I had Salvagers in hand and a Tomb for turn two Karn anyway) gets discarded on turn two thanks to a topdecked Thoughtseize. I end up topdecking Mentor though and wrecking havoc. Salvagers then too joins the party and Lotus Petal loops make an army that inflicts a hella lotta damage.

Round 5: Grixis Delver

Same guy as the weekly event, so it's time for vengeance after my 4-0 was taken away!

Game 1: Delver does its Delver things. I have some Baubles and a Chalice in hand after a mulligan, but not on turn one. My Chalice gets Dazed, my other Chalice gets Pierced (that I unfortunately couldn't of played around - though maybe if I just waited? I think being patient and turning off their soft counters that their wasting turns holding up is a good idea) and then a FoW bites my Salvagers that was ready to combo. I die to Angler.

-2 Lion's Eye Diamond
-1 Lodestone Bauble
-2 Karn, Scion of Urza
-1 Mox Opal
+3 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Sanctum Prelate
+1 Engineeered Explosives

Game 2: True ape Magic. Turn one Chalice into turn two Cavern, Petal, Prelate on two. My opponent cannot really do anything, though Dismember is an out. He scoops it up... But checks his topcard and sees it is Dismember. He is sad.

Game 3: I remember slamming Mentors off Caverns and a Mox Opal getting Forced to turn off White mana for a Plow in my hand. In the end, Mentor really does way too much damage even against three DRS. Karn comes down too to really get the Monk army rolling.

Round 6: Lands

Game 1: I try something different since I'm already out. I have a sol land heavy hand (Tomb, City, City, trinkets, no white source, Mentor, Chalice). I decide to see if Chalice on 2 will work, especially since I need to defend my Mentor from PFire. I Tomb go, my opponent Exploration, Wastelands me. Okay, I guess Chalice on 1 would've been neat. I City, go, my opponent Gambles for a combo piece, then Crop Rotates for a combo piece the next turn, then kills me.

Ladies and gentleman, I learnt that Chalice on 1 on the play vs. Lands is probably good enough.

-4 Chalice of the Void
-4 Walking Ballista
-2 Lion's Eye Diamond
-3 Karn, Scion of Urza
+2 Sanctum Prelate
+2 Seal of Cleansing
+2 Sorcerous Spyglass
+2 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Cast Out
+1 Engineered Explosives
+3 Swords to Plowshares

I may/may of not boarded in the Cast Out, Prelates in this MU and I remember boarding in at least two Plows. I may of kept in some Karns. I think Seals, Spyglass, Crypt and EE are must-ins though and the rest is up to preference.

Game 2: We go all-in on an early Mentor that gets played on turn one. I play land, Mox, trinket, trinket, Mox, Mentor but have nothing to trigger - ideally next turn we can cycle into something. If my opponent goes Mox, land PFire though I've seriously probably just lost the game. Turns out they dont, we draw into some trinkets and a Spyglass for the Maze of Ith they play and then the Mentor engine fires up and kills them.

Game 3: A very good one, with Spyglass again being an MVP shutting off a Stage that would've made Marit Lage kill me. My opponent has GQ but I have basics that make it a non-issue. Once Salvagers and LED (and a Lodestone Bauble on board) hits the table my opponent Gambles for a Chalice on zero, with me knowing they have a Crop Rotation in hand ready to Bog me. They play the Chalice. Next turn, I play an EE X = 1 but Sunburst zero off Cavern and then delicately play around Bog by EoT blowing my EE, cracking LED and Lodestone in resp, returning both to my hand and always having enough mana up to save them from a Bog blowing up my GY. The turn after, I combo out with Lodestone Bauble.

All-in-all, the deck felt both incredibly high and but hit some pretty sad lows. When it did its thing, whatever the varied plan it attacked with, it felt incredible. When it drew dead it really drew dead, though there were always draws which could've let the deck "just get there" which I think is a nice thing it has compared to other Stompy decks - being able to win out of nowhere from behind. I think, like most Stompy decks, you really have to know your mulligan decisions well and of course use the better acceleration we have from the mono-White mana base to take explosive, sometime risky, plays.

Props:

Beating Lands, a relatively tough matchup. Basic Plains did work.
Spyglass being overall very worthy of its sideboard slot, though I am now dubious of it's application vs. Pile (though it's probably still fine).
Mentor for being busted. I think non-Mentor version are just missing out on a card that is synergistic and gives us a really busted angle of attack that needs no "combo".
Prelate feels so much more high-impact as a SB card than Canonist. We can bring it in for so many matchups (eg. brought in for Miracles as extra Chalice effects or Terminus defence).
Karn for being great at... Getting ripped away by discard but at least keeping our hands "high-impact" and letting other cards (Mentor, Salvagers etc.) resolve instead. We have a pretty high threat-density now and a lot of powerful "bombs" to catch us up frombehind (though Mentor topdecked doesn't really do that unless Salvagers or Karn is already in play).

Slops:

Missequencing lands and getting Stone Rained into oblivion. A good lesson for fighting decks with MD artifact destruction: only play your Dens/Opals when you are going to be accelerating something out.
Turbo Depths for being frustrating to deal with and my sideboard plan still not being well fleshed out. To Chalice or not to Chalice? Games like this make me miss Recruiter > crack LED > Magus of the Moon.

Rationalist

05-13-2018, 02:30 PM

So I've been running with Bomberman for the past 4 months or so, and I went 3-1 with the deck again at the Card Kingdom (MBH Seattle) Weekly, which seems the usual outcome.

Karn only got cast once, but it felt pretty good when it did, so I'm definitely sold on him having at least one spot in the 75

Here's the list I was on:

4 Monastery Mentor
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Dark Confidant
2 Imperial Recuiter
2 Trinket Mage
1 Walking Ballista

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Mox Opal
4 Lotus Petal
3 Mishra's Bauble
4 Urza's Bauble
1 Lodestone Bauble

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Unclaimed Territory
2 Remote Farm
1 Karakas
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Spire of Industry

Sideboard
1 Karn, Scion of Urza
2 Quicksmith Rebel
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Containment Priest
1 Warpriest of Thune
2 Manic Vandal
2 Magus of the Disk
1 Spatial Contortion
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Surge Node
1 Engineered Explosives

On to the matches:

Round 1 was Hexproof(?). I combo off turn 3, and then turn 2. 2-0

Round 2: Grixis Delver

Game 1: Delver does Delver things, I lose.

-3 Auriok Salvagers
-3 Lion's Eye Diamond
+1 Karn, Scion of Urza
+2 Quicksmith Rebel
+2 Sanctum Prelate
+1 Manic Vandal (<- Probably a bad call, but was overly worried about Null Rod, Winter Orb, Needle effects out of the board and I'm on a tutor build.)

Game 2: I lead on Chalice on 1, it resolves. I follow it up with Karn and two Baubles, Karn makes a 4/4. When he passes the turn back, I put a Chalice on two, but he scoops before Karn can make a second 6/6.

Game 3: He opens by probing me, revealing a Confidant and a Chalice. I don't have a Cavern, so I lead on Confidant. Not positive this was the right play, but I figured if he had the force, it would be earmarked for Chalice so I'd start gaining Confidant value as early as possible. If he didn't have the force, I'd be giving him an extra chance to cantrip into it, but I'd still be leading turn 1 on an uncontested Confidant. I didn't want to drop Chalice into force though, and then try try to start gaining Confidant value the next turn after giving him another turn to prepare to answer that.

After he reluctantly dismembers my Mentor, I go for the combo kill off of Lodestone Bauble. He draws his deck during his upkeep, attempts to break a Chalice and bolt me with more draw triggers on the stack. It's not enough. (2-1)

Round 3: Elves

(This was the Round 3 Camera Match)

Game 1: I keep a hand that can make an infinite monks Turn 3. Opponent is also able to Combo me out Turn 3. Unfortunately, he went first.

Game 2: I keep a hand that Combo's turn 2. I briefly consider waiting a turn to insulate the combo with a Trinket Mage into 2nd LED to protect against Extraction, but weighing the risk/reward I go for it anyway and make him draw his deck turn 2.

Game 3: I keep a hand on the strength of Walking Ballista, quite likely overvaluing it in the matchup given the rest of the hand. I drop an early Ballista for 2 and take out his Dryad Arbor. It meets an Abrupt Decay in short order. I follow it up with a Salvagers to re-establish Ballista to control the board the next turn, but he combos me out before I get said turn. 1-2

Round 4: Burn

Game 1: He plays a turn 2 Eidolon. I play walking Ballista to kill it and combo off turn 3.

Game 2: He plays a turn 2 Pyrostatic Pillar. I search up Warpriest of Thune, kill it and combo off. 2-0

I continue to prefer a 4-Color Build, as the Tutors are very versatile in the match, make sideboard slots more powerful, greatly increase the consistency with which you can just take wins by slamming the combo, synergize very well with LED, and make Chalice matches much more winnable. Both of them can be Ballistas when I need them to anyways. Replacing one of the Unclaimed Territory with a Spire of Industry is an experiment I'm still not sure of as Spire of Industry is such a weaker land in this context, but I felt adding another natural white source for Salvagers was worthwhile. It has yet to bite me, as anytime I've drawn it where it was awkward, I've also had access to at least one Cavern/Territory. I have had hands though where I was very glad a Territory was not the Spire, so I'll continue to feel that one out.

Magus of the Disk should probably not be in the board, but a tutorable and uncounterable Nev-Disk still seems like something I want to play around with and I want to see it actually fail before just assuming that it will, and I've only really managed to drop it once.

I've still never been disappointed by Surge Node, however. It only comes in against Chalice Decks, but along with Trinket Mage over the course of the game it turns their Chalices into my Chalices, and given that EE always is played along side it in those matchups, if EE in not needed to clear chalices at that point in the game, it even makes EE a bit more flexible as well. It looks too cute to work, but as a Trinket Mage target it simply has not stopped working for me.

Chances are high that Spatial Contortion should be Warping Wail; as it is, it's largely a relic of an early anxiety about Leovold, but I don't think Czech Pile is really a matchup to be compromising the board a lot for.

contra

05-14-2018, 10:47 AM

cosmiccoil

05-14-2018, 09:08 PM

Prelate feels so much more high-impact as a SB card than Canonist. We can bring it in for so many matchups (eg. brought in for Miracles as extra Chalice effects or Terminus defence).

I completely agree; its always been a must in a bunch of matchups, especially against Storm and Miracles. It also helps actually lock some decks out. I am currently on an Esper build and weirdly faced two Turbo Depths players in a row at FNM. Both matches I won with a combination of Bridge (I have been experimenting with boarding out Mentors in Depths matchups) and Prelate on two. They had literally zero outs to the bridge. The deck needs a couple ways to protect the combo that can't be completely obliterated by an EE on zero and the Prelate certainly pull its weight. Now if you'd ever try a one-of recruiter in board (I swear its not terrible in helping to set up a interesting toolbox and can get a Mentor or Ballista in a pinch.

cosmiccoil

05-14-2018, 09:31 PM

Turbo Depths for being frustrating to deal with and my sideboard plan still not being well fleshed out. To Chalice or not to Chalice? Games like this make me miss Recruiter > crack LED > Magus of the Moon.

I remember you posting a Japanese list awhile back that boarded in Bridges, and I honestly think there is a small subset of matchups for which crouching into a defensive posture and hiding behind a Bridge makes total sense, including Eldrazi, Lands, Turbo Depths, and Show and Tell. I have even brought it in against Delver occasionally just to give them another must-destroy artifact. Here is my current board (for an esper build):

2 Containment Priest
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Kitesail Freebooter
1 Devout Witness
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Notion Thief
1 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Tormods Crypt
2 Ensnaring Bridge

cosmiccoil

05-14-2018, 09:49 PM

Weird, how are you guys side boarding? I've yet to lose the S&S MU and my opponents tend to think its unwinnable. Chalice shuts off cantrips and spyglass hoses sneak attack. S&T helps us combo off without mana to cast salvagers the turn after too, plus we have 1 or 2 Karakas MB. :S Also, kitesail freebooter comes down turn 1 or 2 to take half of their combo piece. Maybe I've been lucky in my small sample size but have gone 2-0 against that deck more than a handful of times.

I think if you run Spyglass and 1-2 Karakas then, yes, this should be pretty easy. Karakas in the MB, though, makes us even weaker to a variety of nonbasic land hate without too much upside, except for the random S&T or Reanimator blowout. It doesn't help us turn on metalcraft and it plays no role in protecting or finding our combo.

I would also say that the problem with S&L is always going to be the fact that they can win quicker than us, particularly if it is an Omni build. The best hate against them is uncounterable, but Spyglass is weak to their countermagic and a fast combo hand with Omniscence is game over. Their board clears are also very good against Mentor and some of our hate, unless Prelate is on three for K Return or two for literally only Pyroclasm. If it ends up that they put in Emrakul and pass, I agree that it really isn't that bad, but I find that happens far less frequently than starring down a turn 3 Sneak Attack with a Griselbrand in play drawing 14 cards.

ChemicalBurns

05-15-2018, 06:12 AM

I've tried multiple iterations of chalice bomberman and I believe mono-white is the strongest and most consistent.

For the utility land slot I've tried ancient den, inventors' fair, and karakas. Ancient den feels sub-par since it's only role is turning on metalcraft and pumping karn tokens while karakas is bouncing thalias, leos, emrakuls and griselbrands and inventors' fair is just finding the card you need to win the game.

4 Monastery Mentor
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Walking Ballista

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Mox Opal
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Urza's Bauble
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Karn, Scion of Urza

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Inventors' Fair
3 Karakas
3 Plains

SIDEBOARD
2 Lodestone Golem
2 Containment Priest
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Disenchant
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Swords to Plowshares

I can understand Ancient Den feeling sub-par, but I do truly believe that mono-White's benefit is the smoother mana and the more explosive openings because more consistent Mox Opals. I love utility lands more than anyone and would love to find room, but I also love consistency. The Mox Opal issue has been one of the issues I've been consistently trying to address in every iteration of the deck and honestly, if I played a splash I'd probably cut them entirely and play something like Signets.

I remember you posting a Japanese list awhile back that boarded in Bridges, and I honestly think there is a small subset of matchups for which crouching into a defensive posture and hiding behind a Bridge makes total sense, including Eldrazi, Lands, Turbo Depths, and Show and Tell. I have even brought it in against Delver occasionally just to give them another must-destroy artifact. Here is my current board (for an esper build):

2 Containment Priest
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Kitesail Freebooter
1 Devout Witness
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Notion Thief
1 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Tormods Crypt
2 Ensnaring Bridge

That's some spicy sideboard! I do agree that Recruiter is probably an toolbox option we have available to us even though it cannot find Salvagers; post-board we often grind with Mentor/Karn/Salvager loops and just having more silver bullet access is pretty neat.

I love the idea of Bridge and will try it at the weekly this week. I am truly getting sick of Marit Lage killing us one turn sooner, and it also overlaps with a somewhat difficult matchup in Show & Tell. I agree that siding out Mentors is not a bad plan in combo matchups.

themtgzealot

05-15-2018, 08:09 AM

I finished 5-3 at GP Birmingham with mono W (4 Karn / 4 Cities) - I punted my win and in which was close to a 100% win which feels bad will post list mini report later.

Kaono

05-15-2018, 10:50 AM

4-0 at weekly last night, first time playing the deck. I've been wanting to play Karn in legacy and Bomberman seems the best place for him currently.

List heavily borrowed from ChemicalBurns/Contra.

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Lodestone Bauble
4 Walking Ballista
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Karn, Scion of Urza

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Plains
2 Karakas
2 Inventors' Fair

Sideboard:
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Containment Priest
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Cast Out
2 Disenchant
3 Swords to Plowshares

Only 3 LED cause when I was putting the deck together I discovered an LED I bought months ago was fake -_- . 4 Karn because I just wanted to play with him.

Czech Pile 2-0:
g1 - t1 chalice completely shut him down. he cast a few strixes, but my ballistas cleaned up and he eventually conceded to ballista beats
g2 - early mentor pressured his life until he deluged it away -- karn made a 4/4 that he also deluged -- I then tapped 10 mana and ballistaed him to death.

BR Reanimator 2-1
g1 - he did his thing and got a t1 griselbrand, I couldn't find karakas so conceded
g2 - I lead with t1 chalice t2 chalice and he had no outs
g3 - he mulled and t1 played looting pass binning chancellor and gbrand -- i cast an opal to clear annex trigger, then played spyglass naming gbrand. he cast another looting and passed, so I chaliced for 2 (saw a ratchet bomb off spyglass). He only had 2-mana reanimate spells so next turn I comboed off

NicFit 2-0
g1 - I lead with chalice on 1, he GSZs for a vet explorer -- he's stuck on mana though so I just sit around building up an army of mentors and karn constructs trying to one shot him. He eventually casts a sigarda or something and then I draw the combo.
g2 - he plays 2 vet explorers and again i dont attack or block with mentor -- i have a ballista out on 1 and combo in hand but not enough mana, so I shoot a explorer, fetch out 2 plains and combo off with double activation up to beat surgical which he doesn't end up having

Infect 2-0
g1 and g2 i inventors fair for uncounterable ballista and there's nothing he can do

I tried out Ancient Den in some online testing and was not impressed at all. Inventor's Fair is really clutch and think it's a lynchpin of the deck. Without it you rely on slowtrips and topdecks and with it you just instantly win the game. The deck is great, I love the cleanliness of being monowhite and mainly 4x. I'll probably continue to run it back for a while.

ChemicalBurns

05-16-2018, 03:47 AM

Okay, based on everyone's thoughts I'll be testing two thing this Thursday:

Zero Ancient Den, second Fair and two Karakas in the main.
Ensnaring Bridge in the sideboard.

List will look something like this:

Creatures: (12)
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Walking Ballista

Non-Creature Spells: (29)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble
1 Lodestone Bauble
4 Mox Opal
4 Lotus Petal
3 Karn, Scion of Urza
1 Engineered Explosives

Lands: (19)
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Inventors' Fair
2 Karakas
4 Plains

Sideboard: (15)
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Warping Wail
2 Containment Priest
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Sorcerous Splyglass
1 Engineered Explosives

The only thing I worry about here is a lack of clean answers to Leovold; I guess Spatial Contortion is an answer instead of Wail, but Wails flexibility as counter/kill/Edict protection seems valuable.

EDIT: I guess Karakas bounces Leovold for us to combo out! So that's pretty neat.

Really feels like we need 17 sideboard slots in this deck -.- Will see how Opals go without Den, but I could see only playing three and maining second Explosives as a good idea because they're less likely to be turned on anyway.

hofzge

05-16-2018, 10:58 AM

4 Ancient Den
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Karakas
2 Plains

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Karn, Scion of Urza
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Mox Opal
4 Urza's Bauble

4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Walking Ballista

//Sideboard
SB: 1 Blessed Alliance
SB: 2 Warping Wail
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Lodestone Golem
SB: 2 Sanctum Prelate
SB: 1 Seal of Cleansing
SB: 2 Cast Out
SB: 2 Sorcerous Spyglass
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt

I played this list yesterday, but as I was late I went 2-1 as I had lost the first round.
The 2 rounds I played I won against:

TES: 2-1
G1: I am on the play and keep a hand that wins T3 and draws 40 cards on his 2nd turn. Unfortunately he can play Ad Nauseam T2 and wins.
G2: I can T2 Lodestone Golem and he only has Duress on his T1.
G3: I have double Sanctum Prelate and dump the rest of the hand T1. He looks at my hand and concedes to Prelate on 2, as he boarded Abrupt Decay and Echoing Truth...

Maverick
G1: He has Thalia, but over the course of the game I get a Mentor and can resolve a lot of Baubles so the Thalia and Qasali have to defend. After I have an Auriok, I can get triggers every turn and he dies.
G2: He has 4 DRS during the game and had a hand with Bayou and Wasteland. I mulliganed into a hand of Salvagers and 5 Mana Sources knowing what he plays. After ten turns I have the combo and he still has the lonely Bayou after wasting my Ancient Den T1.

Kaono

05-22-2018, 10:55 AM

Another 4-0 at weekly, deck is busted.

Pretty much the same list as last time but -1 Karn for +1 EE and -1 City of Traitors for +1 Plains. I also updated sideboard, again basing it on ChemicalBurns/Contra's lists:

3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Cast Out
1 Containment Priest
1 Ensnaring Bridge

R1 Storm:
g1 - t1 chalice on one = ggs
g2 - he cast a t2 ad naus and killed himself in the face of a mentor + tokens

R2 BOMBERMAN MIRROR
Shop was hype for this (okay maybe just us but it was hype), he's on Unclaimed Territory 4-color humans build with Trinket Mage, Imp Recruiter, Confidant et al. The tension in these games was amazing. I probably played/boarded wrong but still got the W.
g1 - I get a t1 mentor on the play off no lands, then dont draw any lands or non-mentor/salvager/karn cards and he combos me out pretty easily
g2 - I plow his early Confidant, then I get the combo online and draw 40 cards with bauble -- he goes for his combo and I plow the Salvager in resp
g3 - He has Salvager/Recruiter/Mage out and then plays Confidant, tanks for a bit and then plays Chalice on zero. I had the kill in hand so I untap, ballista the confidant, then start ticking up with Karn trying to find an answer. He adds another Salvager and a Magus of the Disc to his side while I have 3 ballistas on 2/2/1 and a salvager of my own. Karn finds an Inventors Fair so I minus to grab it, then EOT fetch an EE. I shoot the Magus with Ballistas and he pops it in resp. I play my 2nd Salvager from hand + LED = gg

R3 Jeskai Stoneblade
g1 - t1 chalice OP
g2 - cavern drops a mentor and I start swinging in, I have combo on board but read he has an answer so just stick with mentor beats and win -- post game he showed me a Surgical which I could've beat anyway with double activation but my hand was Karn+Cast out and I chose to prioritize prowess triggers over insta-win.

R4 Storm
g1 - chalice on 1 chalice on 2 OP
g2 - he decays my early chalice, but I have t2 mentor + pressure -- I swing for 7 and for 17 and he shows me a hand of all mana despite casting 2 brainstorms

Wrap up: I'm getting super lucky and topdecking like a champ but I think Bomberman as an archetype is extremely underrated at the current moment. I think the deck is a little too soft to combo so I wonder if Karn should be in SB for grindy MUs where we dilute on combo and we should put 2 prelates or canonists mainboard.

Rationalist

05-22-2018, 11:57 AM

I think the deck is a little too soft to combo so I wonder if Karn should be in SB for grindy MUs where we dilute on combo and we should put 2 prelates or canonists mainboard.

(Full disclosure: I'm your round 2 mirror opponent. I came here to share thoughts on the mirror, but you beat me to it. Congrats on the 2nd 4-0 btw, I've yet to get past 3-1)

I do think Karn and even running Ballista as a full 4x maindeck is making a pretty loud statement as to the gameplan you want to be running, and it is certainly trying to be the better fair-deck mainboard. I've followed the same logic you're bringing up to not run Karn main and even shave on Ballista in favor of the blue and red tutors, which admittedly can both still grab Ballista.

Now admittedly, I'm a recurring 3-1 in the exact playerpool you just 4-0'd twice back-to-back with 4x Ballista 4x Karn, so perhaps the better fairgame maindeck IS where you want to be, but to the degree in which you want to attribute it to variance, luck, and playskill over this element of deck-construction, I do think that running 4x Ballista 4x Karn is pretty aggressively grindy for a deck with such a solid combo and with limited mainboard interaction to opposing combos. Running Unclaimed Territory and treating your color as "Human" instead of White still remains very clean, but there's no way that manabase could support 3x Swords to Plowshares, so running Prelate Mainboard seems like a great experiment. There was a 90-man french tournament not too long ago that had a 4x Sanctum Prelate deck take Top 8, and I think I remember them posting something about how great maindeck prelates felt in most of their matchups across the board. Please report back as soon as you can with how the mainboard Prelates are feeling if you test with it.

ChemicalBurns

05-30-2018, 06:59 PM

http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD47849S/

I forgot to mention this list that popped up in Japan. Pretty exciting stuff, though the mana looks shaky and there's a lot of weird ideas thrown in here. I think the main card here that deserves consideration is Board the Weatherlight (The Antiquities War is quite slow, and off-colour). Essentially a cantrip in our deck, it can smooth out draws pretty effectively (unfortunately can't find Salvagers). Any calculations on the minimum number of hits we need to make this good? Thinking something along these lines:

Creatures: (8)
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Walking Ballista

Non-Creature Spells: (32)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Board the Weatherlight
4 Karn, Scion of Urza
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
1 Engineered Explosives

Lands: (20)
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Den
2 Karakas
1 Inventors' Fair
3 Plains

Mox Opal has been cut though I suppose it could be included. I like how Board can find some utility lands (Karakas, Fair) and makes some one-ofs like Explosives in the main more searchable. Of course, Mentor has to sadly be cut to make Board more reliable, and hence the secondary plan of Bridge is used. I'm thinking that replacing some of the Baubles with Lodestone Baubles may be better, because Bridge + drawing whole deck on opponent's upkeep is not really a combo. >.>

Rationalist

05-31-2018, 04:07 AM

Essentially a cantrip in our deck, it can smooth out draws pretty effectively (unfortunately can't find Salvagers). Any calculations on the minimum number of hits we need to make this good?

That list is kind of fascinating; thanks for posting that.

Making the simplifying assumption of removing the card from the deck and leaving the other 59 cards in place, to the first order question of "what number of hits correspond to what chances of not whiffing", you can save yourself a little bit of the effort and steal Frank Karsten's chart for the same question as it applies to Commune with Dinosaurs.

http://227rsi2stdr53e3wto2skssd7xe-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Commune.jpg

Mainboard, the list you link runs 40 Historic cards, so the chances of it Whiffing are exceedingly low. Even the Mono W list you posted most recently runs 37 Historic cards by my count, so Board the Weatherlight is already far and away unlikely to miss. If your metric for 'good' is (digs you 5 cards deeper looking for your key piece and does not whiff) the list you're running already easily hits that bar.

Lets take your same list though from 5-16 and change the bar so you want to hit a card other than Opal, Petal, Baubles or Lands, as these cards are likely to have the greatest diminishing returns as the game progresses. Assuming we count Inventor's Fair as below-threshold, that still puts us north of 80%, higher if we consider it a good hit, which in practice I often would.

Frankly, if you're already running a list with Karn, Board the Weatherlight's ability just to "dig for action" is already pretty darn good, and the chances of it whiffing entirely are very, very low. What I think is important to keep in mind though is that this is leaning more heavily into the fair plan of the deck than the combo plan. BtW into Bauble is obviously great for Mentor, and the increased accessibility of Karn is notable, but the card only helps in digging for one particular half of the combo and the far more naturally resilient half at that.

Here's where I start to be more skeptical towards the card though. Generally if I'm playing an Ancient-Stirrings type card, it's because I want to assemble a combo or access a reactive card of one form or another. 'Digging for fair action' seems a little questionable when the card itself could just be another reasonable action card, and in the scenarios above we're just talking about the card's ability to replace itself with a card that meets this criteria. Few of the cards we're running in the deck mainboard are reactive, so if we put aside the combo aspect of the deck, cantrips are naturally less useful for us than for decks with a higher density of answers.

I think the dream scenario for the card would be this: You'd want the card to reliably hit two different pieces of action for you to choose between, and then rest easy knowing that the card also could help dig for LED and at remarkably high odds still convert into a Bauble or Manasource if all of this failed to come together just so that you wouldn't have to reasonably worry about whiffing. Well as we already saw by stealing Karsten's math, we already hit those last two benchmarks, so let's consider the first.

Looking at your 5-16 Monowhite list, let's say that our consistently valuable "action" in this list is 4x Ballista, 4x Chalice, 3x Karn, 1x EE, so 16 cards out of 59.

Chance n=0 (43/59)(42/58)(41/57)(40/56)(39/55) ~ 0.1923 (I don't know how to write in summation notation in this text field, so just doing it like this seemed fine.)
Chance n=1 (1-0.1923)(43/58)(42/57)(41/56)(40/55) ~ 0.2349
Chance n=2 (1-0.1923-0.2349)(43/57)(42/56)(41/55) ~ 0.2416
Chance n=3 (1-0.1923-0.2349-0.2416)(43/56)(42/55) ~ 0.1942
Chance n=4 (1-0.1923-0.2349-0.2416-0.1942)(43/55) ~ 0.1071
Chance n=5 (1-0.1923-0.2349-0.2416-0.1942-0.1071) ~ 0.0299

... Okay, Chance n=5 should be a lot less than 0.0299, so a lot of error has entered the math here just typing this manually into the calculator and compounding our rounding errors, but the logic and most of the rough proportions seem fine, so as a Fermi-style approximation it should serve.

n=0 and n=1 won't serve the threshold we were talking about so already that's a little bit over 42% of probability space that doesn't get us the kind of options we're looking for. At n=2, if we divide out "hits" into 3 buckets (Ballista/Chalice/Karn+EE) and we say we don't want duplicates from the same bucket, we're going to lose about 1/3rd of that probability space as well, so now we're up to about 48% non-ideal behavior.

So, super-rough approximation: If we were to throw Board the Weatherlight into your 5-16 Mono W list (in place of a non-Historic card), it would almost certainly replace itself, it would always help dig towards the LED if you needed it to combo-off, about 80% of the time it would replace itself with a highly valuable "action" card in a fair game, and somewhere around 50% of the time you'd get some actual selection out of it.

Just super first impressions, I think it's playable, but it so unreliably provides you the kind of selection you want I don't think it's overly impressive - it's often just going to show you one card that's relevant in the current board-state, and in a deck so much more oriented towards 'questions' than 'answers', generating a question without a very high level of selection seems ... marginal. Still, I wouldn't discount the utility of a reliable piece of action that also helps dig for an LED.

After having given it some consideration, if I was on the Mono-W list, I think I'd want to try it as a one-of. I wouldn't want to run 2, because quite often it's just replacing itself with a card of moderate quality at the cost of some tempo, but the ability to turn one of the deck's threats into a less consistent threat while also seeing 5 more cards with respect to one half of your combo (not to mention highly valuable sideboard cards that happen to be historic) seems potentially pretty great.

And really, I've never been entirely sold on 4x Ballista, so 3x Ballista 1x BtW seems like a direction I'd want to experiment in if I was Mono W.

Just some initial thoughts on the card. I think you already are running enough hits to make the first copy "good", but I'd be leery of running 4x of a cantrip that isn't actually that impressive in assembling the combo and that provides dubious selection.

ChemicalBurns

06-02-2018, 07:39 AM

That list is kind of fascinating; thanks for posting that.

...

Just some initial thoughts on the card. I think you already are running enough hits to make the first copy "good", but I'd be leery of running 4x of a cantrip that isn't actually that impressive in assembling the combo and that provides dubious selection.

Thank you so much for this! Exactly the kind of in-depth analysis I was looking for, I too am skeptical concerning it but will likely give it a go (as a one or two-of to begin with). Let's try this kind of list:

Creatures: (12)
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Walking Ballista
4 Auriok Salvagers

Non-Creature Spells: (29)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Karn, Scion of Urza
2 Board the Weatherlight
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
1 Engineered Explosives

Lands: (19)
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Den
1 Karakas
1 Inventors' Fair
2 Plains

Sideboard: (15)
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Karn, Scion of Urza
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Warping Wail

Sideboard feels a little soft to Storm still and still experimenting with the Bridge (maybe it should just be a one-of - with BtW and Fair to find it could be worthwhile running one-ofs like it?). Also have cut Containment Priest - haven't found it particularly useful outside of S&S and Prelate does as a good a job. Warping Wail and Bridge should also provide more SB cards to board in.

cosmiccoil

06-02-2018, 06:00 PM

Also have cut Containment Priest - haven't found it particularly useful outside of S&S and Prelate does as a good a job.

I am just curious about your experience with Renanimator without Containment Priest. I like the idea of freeing up some spots, but boy do I like having a strong out to random graveyard strategies beyond 2x Crypts.

ChemicalBurns

06-02-2018, 09:57 PM

I am just curious about your experience with Renanimator without Containment Priest. I like the idea of freeing up some spots, but boy do I like having a strong out to random graveyard strategies beyond 2x Crypts.

I guess I do feel less worried about Reanimator these days, but I will agree I'm a little soft to it currently. Wail and Bridge at least also do something in these matchups, so that's something.

f7eleven

06-03-2018, 04:48 PM

When your combo winds up being infinite mana with only an Urza's Bauble, how do you guys play it out?

Kaono

06-03-2018, 05:01 PM

When your combo winds up being infinite mana with only an Urza's Bauble, how do you guys play it out?

Draw 40 cards, try to win on next turn.

f7eleven

06-03-2018, 05:16 PM

That's what you do with Mishra's Bauble. I'm specifically asking about Urza's Bauble.

Kaono

06-03-2018, 06:27 PM

They're functionally the same in the deck.

Unless you're asking mechanically how to go about doing so given the random aspect of Urza's Bauble, in which case you should've been more clear.

Assuming that's what you want to know, at lower REL with a friendly opponent they'll reveal their hand. At comp REL and above you'll randomly pick one each time so I have them shuffle their hand, place it face down, then use a die. I track which ones I'll get to see and stop the process once all have been picked. Then I look at their hand and we move on.

f7eleven

06-03-2018, 07:30 PM

I was clear enough.

There are some pieces of interaction, that once upon learning they have you may no longer want to draw your library low enough that decking becomes a path to losing. This makes announcing that you will repeat the loop x times a suboptimal play. Further, if they have two or more of any specific card(s) in hand (barring distinguishing art/wear/altering), you cannot be 100% certain that you've seen every card. The most common way of determining a random card in an opponent's hand is that they randomize their hand from 1-n then roll a die to determine the card(s) that is revealed/discarded. Urza's Bauble has odd wording in that the card seen is not public knowledge, requiring the opponent's hand be randomized again after the ability. Let's say you can repeat this process four times in one minute. You're looking at 10 minutes to repeat this loop 40x.

Sure, if they just reveal their hand then there's no issue, but they are under no obligation to do so, and the larger their hand/higher the REL, the more likely they are to be able to/want to keep hidden information hidden vs a finite number of looks.

TL;DR: Urza's Bauble's quirky wording is annoying (including even when you're only resolving it once a turn).

aromaticity

06-04-2018, 02:43 PM

Urza's Bauble has odd wording in that the card seen is not public knowledge, requiring the opponent's hand be randomized again after the ability.

FYI if you're targeting an opponent with Urza's Bauble you essentially treat the card as if it said 'reveal' instead of 'look'. Source. (https://blogs.magicjudges.org/blog/2017/08/06/magic-judge-monthly-july-2017/) The reasons for this are pretty shitty, IMO - it's only slightly more of a pain in the ass to resolve Bauble the way it's worded, and it only really matters if you're looping it... in which case there isn't a shortcut unless your opponent is cool with just revealing their hand so it's kind of moot that it's a pain in the ass. And the 'it's basically changing zones' argument is kind of odd.

Rationalist

06-05-2018, 11:30 PM

So I went 4-0 at the Card Kingdom Weekly yesterday. (If anyone was watching, I was the Round 3 Feature Match).

Over the past few months I've attempted to test with every conceivable construction of this deck (I have admittedly not yet tried the Board the Weatherlight variants), including a few more off the wall ones, and I continue to feel like the 4-Color Unclaimed Territory build is where I want to be with this deck. I agree that the consistency of playing a mono-color deck is ideal in an archetype with a notable amount of colorless lands and without the ability to play a significant number of fetches, I just think that the color "Human" offers a lot that the color "White" does not.

Here's the list I ran:

4x Monastery Mentor
4x Auriok Salvager
4x Dark Confidant
2x Imperial Recruiter
2x Trinket Mage
1x Walking Ballista

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Mox Opal
4x Lotus Petal
4x Urza's Bauble
3x Mishra's Bauble
1x Lodestone Bauble

4x Unclaimed Territory
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
2x Remote Farm
1x Spire of Industry
1x Inventor's Fair

SB:

1x Karn, Scion of Urza
2x Quicksmith Rebel
2x Sanctum Prelate
1x Containment Priest
1x War Priest of Thune
2x Manic Vandal
1x Magus of the Disk
1x Surge Node
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Sorcerous Spyglass
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Spatial Contortion

Match 1: Storm (ANT)

Game 1 - I keep a grindy hand and get stormed-out turn 2.

Game 2 - I'm forced to mulligan down to 5 cards no land, but it has a Chalice and two Baubles. I'm using Baubles to dig for lands with what little of a hand I have, so I don't feel that I can play Chalice on 0 in the early game. He takes the first Chalice from me before I can play it, but I draw a second. He ends up taking that one too, again before I can play it for anything other than 0 which would prevent me from digging for mana and even turn a fair amount of it off. My board is Tomb, LED, Opal and I have a Trinket Mage in hand. I crack Mishra's Bauble on his end step and see a 2-mana artifact answer (I can't remember this much time later whether it was a Hurkyl's or a Perilous Voyage, but I'll assume it was a Huryl's). I top-deck the Tormod's Crypt from one of my draws, play it, and then follow up with Trinket Mage. If I had not seen the top of his deck, I think I might have been tempted to crack the LED with the Trinket Mage trigger on the stack and play Chalice on 1 because I'd be worried about him storming off the following turn, but given that I know he has the 2 CMC answer the right play is to lean on the Tormod's Crypt cutting off any lines he might have been comfortable with on his next turn and then playing the Chalice on 2 the next turn. I proceed to do that, and then follow it up with a Sanctum Prelate.

Game 3 - I keep a hand with 2 Chalice. He takes one turn 1, and on my turn I play the other Chalice on 1. On my following turn I destroy his LED with my Manic Vandal. From then on the gameplan is just to play as many hatebears as I can grab and swing in with them and clock him out.

Match 2: Astral Slide

Game 1 - I got to play against Astral Slide, which was great. I turn 1 Remote Farm. Turn 2 Ancient Tomb into Salvagers and LED, recur a Bauble and draw most of my deck on his 2nd upkeep. With my deck in hand Turn 3, I play another Salvagers and some Chalices on 1 and 2 just to be extra cautious, drop the LEDs, cycle one of them and then force him to draw himself to death on his 3rd upkeep.

Game 2 - If I had known his list, I would have boarded in Surge Node and Engineered Explosives since apparently he was running Chalice. I didn't have any incling going into game 2 though, and he drops a Chalice on 0. I play Mentor. Next turn I play another Mentor, run 3 artifacts into the chalice to make 6 monks, and swing with the Mentor for 5. Next turn 2 more artifacts, swing for 26.

Match 3: Punishing Dack (Chris Wessel)

The video archive of this match can be found here (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/269503539?t=01h48m50s)

Game 1 - Turn 1 I lead on LED, Ancient Tomb, Lodestone Bauble, Opal, Float White, Opal, and attempt to resolve Salvagers to combo off T1, but Salvagers meets a FoW. I draw another Opal T2 and go for it again; this time he doesn't have a FoW. My remaining card in hand was Imperial Recruiter though, so even if he did I'd feel pretty good about my position.

Game 2 - Game 2 was a disaster. Between you and me I have on occasion noticed that I have a subtle weakness as a player, and that's that I'm dumb and bad at Magic. In this context, this manifests itself as me somehow talking myself into identifying him as on Sneak and Show based on the cards I had seen game 1, and then boarding hard into this match-up as if I knew for a fact that this is what he was on. I keep a hand based on this understanding. I begin to play based on this understanding. By the time it's clear to me that I'm going all in on something that just doesn't line up with reality, I don't have a lot of resources with which to back-peddle. I attempt to assemble the combo to steal a win, but I can't get there in time. As I scoop to his Deathrite's presenting lethal, I ask him across the table "So, you're not Sneak-Show, than?". Chris gives me a friendly chuckle.

Game 3 - Chris leads on Deathrite, and subsequently misses his next land-drop. I attempt a Chalice on 1, but it meets a force. My opponent cantrips, and next turn I drop an uncounterable Prelate on 2. On his subsequent turn I get thoughtseized and reveal a hand of LED, Mentor, Opal, Quicksmith Rebel. Chris takes the Mentor, so on my turn I land an Opal and an uncounterable Quicksmith Rebel and beat him to death with it. I play a little poorly by dropping out a Confidant unnecessarily which is predominantly clock-neutral, but it hardly ends up mattering.

Match 4: Bizarro Stormy (Greg Mitchell)

Game 1 - He keeps a no-lander on 5, and I try to clock him with Mentor and a Ballista. If I had 1 more mana I could have pumped Ballista once and gotten there, but as it stands I'm one turn short and he does his Bizarro Stormy thing and I die.

Game 2 - Game 2 I land a Chalice on 1, a Containment Priest, a Chalice on 2, I Imperial Tutor up a Prelate on 3, and he scoops.

Game 3 - I hit an early Chalice on 1. After he plays an LED, I destroy it with Manic Vandal (which seemed like a decent 1-of to bring in due to Silent Gravestone) and starting digging for more Control action with a Karn. I find a Prelate but obviously that goes into exile. He Hurkyl's me end-step and proceeds to combo off on his turn. Unfortunately, he gets himself in the situation where his Magus of the Mind is the lowest creature in his Graveyard, he has a Griselbrand in play, he puts two Shallow Graves on the stack and sac's LED for Blue. Since Griselbrand is Legendary, the first Shallow Grave revives Griselbrand and immediately sends another one back to the graveyard, and the second Shallow Grave only repeats this process instead of digging down to the Magus of the Mind. Realizing his error, he expresses his regret and quickly identifies the best out he can play for. At this point I am at 9 and he is at 8. He goes down to 1 to draw more cards, and then casts Collective Brutality, killing the Vandal and draining me for 2 bringing me down to 7. He passes the turn to me and I look through his graveyard to see what I don't have to worry about anymore. I count 4 copies of Shallow Grave, so I call the judge over to ask for the Oracle text of the other Shallow Grave card which is Corpse Dance and has a CMC of 3. Not wanting to go to 4 from Ancient Tomb and Spire of Industry as he still may have some Brutalities and an Acquisiton, I crack the LED for white, grab the Prelate with Karn and play Prelate naming 3 while staying at 7 life, believing that the out he's playing to is Corpse Dance. He offers me the handshake.

Thoughts on the deck:

I continue to love the deck, and feel like even if it became more widely adopted and the novelty of the deck wore off, I would remain on it or at least keep it assembled and sleeved as a permanent fixture.

The reason I prefer the Unclaimed build is that the Confidants make it easier to get rolling off a small pool of mana, and the tutors lets you lean into the combo game 1, while giving you the greatest access to your sideboard game 2 and/or allowing you to board out the majority of the combo to lean into the fair-plan and still have more then reasonable access to the combo when the opportunity arises. Essentially, it feels both more versatile and consistent. What it gives up is Swords out of the board, a more powerful fair-game game 1 without the maindeck Karns, and has slightly lower access to natural white mana for kickstarting Salvagers (which honestly is the point I lament more than the first two). The preponderance of non-basics, on the other hand, does not feel like an issue at all. The difference in susceptibility to wasteland is marginal, and in a 4 Opal, 4 Petal deck that can also use Imperial Recruiter / Karn to turn LED into color fixing-ramp, Blood Moon isn't the biggest threat, and giving up on a small handful of basics in order to be able to easily tutor up answers to opposing Chalice, for example, is a trade I'm happy to make. The primary synergy of the deck is so powerful though that there's plenty of other hypothetical builds to explore, and I would hope that other people experiment with all sorts of variations. For the time being though, and barring someone having a massively positive result with a yet unseen build, I'll stick to iterating Mono-Human.

Speaking of, I'm running out of iterative improvements I want to make maindeck. I finally chucked the Karakas for a 9th Gold Land, as the effect just isn't worth compromising the manabase. I'm beginning to suspect the 4th Mishra's Bauble may be more valuable than the 4th Urza's Bauble. I want to give this thought some time to make sure I'm not just falling prey to experience bias as in theory Urza's Bauble should be stronger (consistently gives you information regardless of how opponent sequences their fetching, gives you immediately relevant information, can give you cumulative information on the opponent when multiples are used in one turn, etc), but in practice I haven't been noticing an effect-based difference in the information the two cards have been giving me, and the synergy that Mishra's Bauble has with Dark Confidant is very alluring, particularly given the CMC distribution of the deck.

As strong as the deck is and I believe it will remain, I suspect the current metagame weather is darkening for us slightly, not getting brighter. Steel Stompy seems a bad-matchup, and that's a deck on an upswing that I expect to continue. This is a bit anecdotal, but Thalia is also creature I suspect to see some growth in after the printing of Brightling. RIP I also wouldn't be shocked to see begin to see more play, as Surgical seems to be at a saturation point based on the numbers coming out of the CFB 2k, and the metagame has already pretty strongly adapted to its ever-presence, meaning that its relative utility should now be notably less. People playing with Brightling would also mean more people playing with White Cards as well, obviously.

That's all for now. Looking forward to seeing how other people are fairing and what specific lists they're working on.