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supachai
07-20-2017, 02:55 AM
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Czech Pile/4C Control



Table of Contents:
I. Introduction
II. Card Choices
III. Decklists
IV. Sideboarding and Matchup Analysis
V. Playing the Deck
VI. References and Links
VII. Closing Thoughts

I. Introduction

Overview
Czech Pile/4C Control is a UB-based midrange control deck, splashing R and G for powerful card advantage, removal, and sideboard spells. It runs a notoriously high density of individually powerful cards, a pile of good stuff if you will. The deck is heavy on disruption for both permanents and spells, and held together by Legacy’s best cantrips, Deathrite Shaman, and card-advantages spells like Baleful Strix, Snapcaster Mage, and Kolaghan’s Command. Its gameplan is to answer and disrupt each of the opponents threats while slowly gaining 2-for-1 trades to eventually out-grind them, usually winning through a combination of small creature attacks or an inevitable Jace, the Mind Sculptor ultimate.

Brief History
Czech Pile is a fairly new face to the Legacy scene, beginning its existence towards the end of 2016 after the release of Conspiracy: Take the Crown, with the printing of Leovold, Emissary of Trest. Its origins can be traced back to either Tomas Mar (who is Czech) or MTGO user pellenik, though a few pros like Oliver Tiu and Noah Walker played it to relative success as early as GP Louisville in January 2017. While the build has evolved over time (from Tarmogoyfs and Young Pyromancers), the premise of the deck remains the same: to play all the best cards in Legacy. The best creatures in DRS and Snapcaster Mage. The best spells in Brainstorm, Thoughtseize, Abrupt Decay, and Lightning Bolt. The best win condition in Jace the Mind Sculptor. The best sideboard cards like Flusterstorm and Red Elemental Blast. It turns out, to play all of these cards, you want to be in 4 colors: U, B, R, and G. Its Czech origins plus essentially being a “pile” of strong legacy staples bestowed upon it the name Czech Pile.

The deck can generate incredible card advantage and has answers for almost every situation. However, its weaknesses are its inability to end a game quickly and its color intensive, nonbasic-heavy manabase. The deck was originally overshadowed by Top-based Miracles as the premier control deck of the format but since Top’s banning in April 2017, times are a-changin. Miracles was gone for a while but has popped back, and the metagame is still trying to find its footing. But Czech Pile is currently well positioned. This deck has game against most of the decks in the format; in fact one of the greatest strengths of being in 4 colors is that you have a very flexible maindeck and sideboard in that you can pull from a wider cardpool to adjust to specific metagames.

Czech Pile really started to gain prominence after a top 8 performance by Jacob Haversat at GP Vegas in June 2017, who played a very traditional list of Czech Pile, but with Tasigur in the main. Since then, it has become very popular on the MTGO meta, with frequent 5-0’s. In the span of a few months, Czech Pile has slowly emerged as the premier blue control deck of the format, and by the end of summer had become a Deck to Beat, rivaled only in popularity by Grixis Delver. It is a deck that everyone should be prepared to face, and have a gameplan against. Conversely, as a Pile player, you need to be prepared that decks are now metagaming against you, and players will know how to play against you.

Update: July 2018
With the banning of Deathrite Shaman, the future of this deck will change. 4 colors no longer seems like a tenable option and the deck will likely pivot into Grixis or BUG colors. Enough of the existing cards can still support a grindy 2-for-1 mentality such as Snapcaster, Hymn, and Kolaghan's Command. As the meta shifts and stabilizes, we will see how to proceed with Czech Pile and this thread.

Why should I play Czech Pile?
Czech Pile is the ultimate value deck. If you enjoy out-grinding your opponent and maximizing your value, this is your deck. It is slow and methodical but powerful. Players of the old Shardless BUG archetype will enjoy this playstyle, but Czech Pile is less clunky and has stronger sideboard options. Your typical gameplan revolves around trading removal spells/counters/discard for your opponents threats. Your card advantage will slowly pull you ahead as your opponent cannot trade favorably with you. As you stabilize, your superior board position and/or a Jace in the lategame will usually seal the deal. The deck will rarely hand you free wins like Sneak and Show or Delver's mana denial can; you'll have to carefully navigate your opponents threats to come out on top.

Someone considering Czech Pile might also be considering one of the various other control decks in Legacy. The most common being Grixis Control, BUG Control (Reid Duke style), Shardless BUG, Stoneblade, and Miracles. Below is a comparison with each of these decks.

Grixis Control – Grixis Control is the most similar to Czech Pile. It runs Kolaghan’s Command, Jace, and Snapcaster Mage, and a very similar removal suite. It eschews green so no Leovold, Abrupt Decay, and usually no DRS. It also typically cuts down on Baleful Strixes, though recent builds have been seen to include them. Instead it incorporates more proactive threats like Gurmag Angler, Young Pyromancer and True-Name Nemesis. This allows the deck to switch gears between aggro and control more easily, making it more flexible and better at racing. It also provides sturdier threats vs. Punishing Fire decks. Dropping green means it has a slightly stronger manabase, but is offset by the lack of DRS, which helps our mana considerably. The disadvantage is that it has 0 maindeck answers to enchantments, fewer answers to artifacts and other nonland threats. Leovold is also a very strong hatebear against a range of strategies. In addition to helping our manabase, DRS also provides MD graveyard hate, and some lifegain for sustain. In fact, many of the more recent Grixis Control lists are starting to look more and more like Czech Pile, replacing Leovold with Gurmag Angler-here the boundaries really begin to blur.

BUG Control – Reid Duke famously won GP Louisville in January 2017 with this deck. It played 8 mana dorks and starred a playset of True Name Nemsis. This results in a much more proactive midrange strategy, running Dazes and fewer reactive/removal cards. It really is more of a midrange deck. It was certainly much better at racing and applying pressure but likely has trouble with the late-game since Daze and Noble Hierarch are both weak topdecks. We also tend to have stronger sideboard options.

Shardless BUG – This deck has really fallen out of favor lately, but it still has a lot of raw power. Ancestral Vision is a very potent CA engine. It is also more aggressive due to Tarmogoyf and is able to support a light mana denial strategy in Wasteland. However it is simply too clunky nowadays having to set up so many of its draws. Snapcaster Mage is much stronger than Shardless Agent as a card. And the fact that we get to run cheap counterspells makes us stronger against combo and better at “controlling” the game. Again, being in 4C also means stronger sideboard options.

Blade Control – There are various flavors of blue-based Stoneforge control, usually in Bant or Esper colors, sometimes splashing a fourth. These decks are strong against creature based strategies, solid against combo, and can simply nab free wins off the back of Stoneforge Mystic and True Name Nemesis. They get to run Swords to Plowshares, which is a strict upgrade to our removal suite. They often also run Wasteland to deal with problem lands. Our greatest advantage over them is how much raw card advantage we have. We both have strong, but different sideboard options. We get Red Elemental Blast and strong sweepers in Marsh Casualties and Toxic Deluge (though Zealous Persecution is very good too) while they get hatebears such as Ethersworn Canonist and Containment Priest.

Miracle Control – Lastly, we have Miracles. Once the boogeyman of the format, the new version has different strengths and weaknesses. They have a rock-solid manabase, the best removal suite of any deck in Swords + Terminus, and some builds can actually be quite proactive with a Mentor beatdown plan. However, if it doesn’t find Mentor (usually only a 2-of or sometimes 0), it is even worse than Czech Pile at ending games in a hurry. Additionally, the deck has a lot of do-nothing cards (often up to 16 cantrips), and many cards require some degree of setup, whereas our cards are more individually powerful. Us getting to play maindeck graveyard hate is also a strength that can’t be ignored.

II. Card Choices

The Core

These cards pretty much never change. Keep reading for detailed analysis of each card.

4 Deathrite Shaman
2-4 Baleful Strix
2-4 Snapcaster Mage
1-2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3-4 Force of Will
0-2 Counterspell

2 Fatal Push
0-2 Lightning Bolt
0-2 Abrupt Decay
1-2 Kolaghan’s Command

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

20 lands

This gives you somewhere between 5-10 cards that you can really tweak to suit your metagame and playstyle.

Creatures

Core Creatures

Deathrite Shaman – The glue that holds this deck together. DRS is largely accepted as one of the best creatures in legacy, and here it really pulls its weight. Being in 4 colors, our manabase can be sketchy at times and DRS works overtime in helping produce the right colors in the right quantities. It protects us from Daze and mana-denial strategies. It can accelerate out our 3- and 4- mana threats. It is a clock, sustain, graveyard hate, and holds the ground against 1/1s all rolled up into one. The benefits of DRS really don't need to be stressed any further. Often our favorite turn 1 play. Run 4.

Baleful Strix – Such a simple and elegant design. A straight-up, no-nonsense 2 for 1. Replaces itself when it comes into play and will usually require a removal spell or it will trade with one of your opponent’s creatures, from Delver to Griselbrand. Only a select few cards from your opponent can interact favorably with Strix (Forked Bolt, Thalia are examples). Strix plays a key role in the deck however. The rest of our removal suite is unable to handle any resolved threat that is larger than 3 toughness/4 CMC. Strix holds the ground (and the air) against Reanimator, Sneak and Show targets, as well as random things like Gurmag Angler and Eldrazi. It can also be a very slow clock if needed and of course, it pitches to Force. Most lists run at least 3.

Snapcaster Mage – Tiago Chan’s invitational card finds itself very at home in this deck. This deck is all about value, and Snapcaster embodies that. With 23-25 instants and sorceries, Snapcaster often has a solid target in the graveyard. Snapcaster is so much more than a 2-for-1 in that it allows you to have a greater virtual density of the cards you need. Playing against combo? Double up on your Thoughtseizes and Counterspells. Playing against a creature deck? Well now you have up to 3 extra removal spells. In a pinch, it helps cantrip to dig for land or answers. In a really tight pinch, it can ambush an attacking creature. Combine this with Kolaghan’s Command for maximum value. However, it can be clunky in multiples and in the early game. Most lists run 3-4.

Leovold, Emissary of Trest – Leovold is like a super hatebear. He has a heavy color requirement and costs 3, but completely shuts down your opponent’s ability to dig for answers and threats. It also shields all of our easy-to-remove creatures somewhat by drawing replacements and drawing initial removal spells towards himself. And when they finally do remove him, he still 2-for-1’s them. You might even draw into a counterspell to protect him. Extremely good against cantrips, Griselbrand, Elves. It interestingly also has favorable interactions against Punishing Fire (you will draw at least 2 cards if they try to kill Leovold and anything else they kill you get to replace) and Tendrils of Agony (storm for 10 means you draw 10 cards, greatly increasing the chance that you draw into a counter). He also is a 3/3, which holds the ground much better than your Deathrites and Snapcasters. 2 is a good number since multiples can get clunky.

More fringe options

True-Name Nemesis – Mini-Progenitus is great at stalling the ground and providing a fast, unblockable clock. It has no disruption or card advantage to it so it just plays the role of a beater. Good against decks where you need to race, and a sticky creature against removal-heavy decks, especially Punishing Fire. It’s also a good Planeswalker killer. Usually a 1/2-of if run at all.

Vendilion Clique – Similar to TNN in manacost and P/T put trades survivability and some evasion for Flash and pseudo-Thoughtseize. An incredible card against combo decks and Stoneforge Mystic. Provides a clock, kills planeswalkers, disrupts gameplans, and can even filter the cards in your hand in a pinch. There are so many cool plays you can do with Clique. Flash in during draw step to nab that Natural Order or Show and Tell they just topdecked. Play it in response to Vial or Stoneforge activation to take their card and disrupt their plan. Flash in EOT to surprise kill a Jace that accidentally brainstormed, or even clear the way for your own Jace. Or just flash it in to ambush an attacker. Extremely versatile card. People rarely run more than 1 in the MD though.

Tasigur, the Golden Fang – The GP Vegas T8 list ran 1 of these in the MD though it is not a common choice. It has the biggest butt of any creature we run and provides a great mana sink in the late-late game. I personally have never tried this card, but I imagine it to be great in grindy, midrange matchups where a repeated source of card advantage is useful, especially tacked on a large body. Wouldn’t run more than 1. Gurmag Angler can be a slightly larger, but dumber replacement.

Instants and Sorceries

The usual suspects

Brainstorm – Legacy is known as the Brainstorm format. Illegal in Modern and restricted in Vintage, Legacy is unique in that a full playset of Brainstorm can be played. Brainstorm is so incredibly strong due to its famous interaction with fetchlands. For a single mana, you can add three cards to your hand and put the 2 least relevant cards back on top. If you need a removal spell that turn, you have it. If you need Force of Will to counter a key card, you have it. The rest of the cards you put back will still be there if you need them in the coming turns. If they are irrelevant, you can shuffle them away. This all may seem obvious to a Legacy veteran, but Brainstorm is such a critical piece of the deck it deserves some mention. It is especially potent in this deck for two reasons. First, we are in 4 colors and being able to access all of our colors to cast our spells is of utmost importance. Cantrips like Brainstorm enable that. Second, we are a reactive deck. Our goal is to handle each of our opponents threats as they come. Brainstorm allows us to dig and filter for our strong selection of removal and countermagic at the right time. Always run 4.

Ponder – This deck is color-intensive and wants to find the right tools for the right situations. Just 4 cantrips is not enough to reliably get the cards we need so we run Ponder as well. It is far stronger than Preordain/Serum Visions since you can see more cards and stronger than Portent since you get the card this turn, and we don’t run any Miracle tricks. It even has an advantage over Brainstorm in allowing you to shuffle your deck, but you can only ever get 1 card from your deck via Ponder. Run 4 of these as well.

Force of Will – Often said to be the glue of legacy that is preventing degenerate combo decks from running rampant. Probably mostly true, and we want it here as well. In addition to combo decks, Force can help stop threats that you are unable to immediately deal with. Aether Vial, TNN are all good examples. This deck also fairly easily hits 5+ mana in the late game so it is still a great draw at any stage of the game. Run 4, unless your name is Joe Lossett (who famously often runs only 3 Forces).

Counterspell – Good old Counterspell. UU: Counter target spell. This deck needs a few more mid to late game catch-all cards. It still turns on as soon as turn 2 and getting double blue is fairly easy with this deck. Usually a 2-of. EDIT (11/2017): There has been a trend away from countermagic main deck, instead relying on more proactive disruption such as Hymn to Tourach and more removal main-deck.

Fatal Push – Part of the removal suite trifecta of Push/Bolt/Decay. I would run somewhere between 5-7 of these 3 cards. Together, they deal with 95% of the most common threats in Legacy. Fatal Push, a fairly recent addition to Legacy, excels as dealing with small to medium creatures. Hits everything in the format short of Eldrazi, reanimator targets, and Gurmag Angler. Unfortunately it can be a dead card in many matchups, since it can’t go face like Bolt can. 2-3.

Lightning Bolt – While it can’t hit larger creatures like Goyf, Lightning Bolt has an advantage over Fatal Push in that it is never completely dead. It can always go face, and when you find yourself in a race (against a TNN, for example), Bolt can help you pull ahead. Notably, it hits Mirran Crusder, which neither of the other 2 can, and hits planeswalkers. The fact that we play it will often force players to uptick Jace instead of brainstorming. And it still kills probably 70% of the creatures in Legacy. 0-2.

Abrupt Decay – Abrupt Decay was once a format staple when Top-based Miracles was king. Hitting one of the most ubiquitous enchantments uncounterably, plus almost never being a dead card means it was a staple. Times have changed though. Miracles is no longer very permanent based, Gurmag Anglers and Eldrazi are more common, and 2 mana against low-to-the ground Delver decks is often negative tempo. Still, it is a great catch-all that hits everything from creatures to equipment to planeswalkers. Being uncounterable is just gravy. I would not run more than 2 MD since it can be a clunky draw.

Kolaghan’s Command – One of the best card advantage spells in the deck. With 2 of 4 modes, the card is extremely versatile. Rarely will you have less than 2 good options. Instant-speed discard can nab sorcery-speed cards during their draw step. 2 damage still kills a huge variety of the format’s most common threats, from DRS to Delver, Flickerwisp to Dark Confidant. Plus it can nab planeswalkers that went a little too low on loyalty. Destroying artifacts is actually a surprisingly common mode. Aether Vial, Chalice of the Void, a random LED that stayed on the board, plus it can completely blow out an equipment-based attack by killing a creature plus an equipment, often resulting in more than a 2-for-1. Speaking of more than 2 for 1, being able to grab back Baleful Strix or Snapcaster, and then potentially flashing back KCommand (perhaps to get another Strix/Snap) is so much value out of 1 card it is incredible. That’s a potential 4 for 1 or even 5 for 1. Insane. Typically run as a 2 of, but some lists have gone up to 3 or down to 1.

Thoughtseize – One of the most powerful discard spells ever printed. Discard paired with countermagic is what makes this deck so strong against Combo decks. They can usually beat one of them, but when you attack high-synergy decks from multiple angles, it makes life extremely difficult. I prefer these game one against unknown decks since it rarely ever misses, but arguments for Inquisition/Duress/Therapy could be made. Thoughtseize is probably stronger than Therapy in this deck since we don’t have Young Pyromancer to take advantage of flashback. If you suspect a combo deck, or lack Force of Will protection, Thoughtseize can often be the correct turn 1 play over DRS. Most lists run 2.

Toxic Deluge – The only MD sweeper that is typically run in 4C Control. It can be giant reset button when you are falling too far behind on board-state and punishes players who overcommit. Helps greatly against decks that need to go wide, like Elves. An additional MD answer to TNN is also welcome. If you run your own TNN, it can be awkward, especially since our creatures our small and will almost surely die to your own Deluge. Usually a 1-of if run.

Hymn to Tourach – Some variants prefer a more proactive gameplan using Hymn to Tourachs in the main. A resolved Hymn in the early game can completely dispatch certain decks. This is another card that has become more common in recent lists, due its strengths vs combo decks and Cavern of Souls decks (aka Death and Taxes and Eldrazi). Flashing it back with Snapcaster can completely rip apart your opponents hand in the mid game. It certainly makes our deck more aggressive and less reactive. It fits in line with the CA theme of the deck but it can be a weak draw in the late game, where Counterspell is likely stronger to handle topdecked threats. Another note is that this card greatly increases your commitment to black. You often have to get 2x Underground Sea or Sea + Badlands as your first 2 lands.

Less common choices

Night’s Whisper/Painful Truths – Usually run as a 1-of in some decks, but not a guaranteed choice. It is a solid CA and digging spell in the mid-late game. Careful pairing these with too many Toxic Deluges and Thoughtseizes. Combined with fetchlands, the lifeloss can be difficult to manage. Although not run as often anymore, Painful Truths is a 3-mana version that can truly pull you ahead in the lategame. Unfortunately a 3-mana do-nothing (to the boardstate) is quite clunky.

Pyroblast – Secret tech that can occasionally be mainboarded if your meta is more blue-filled. With the recent performance of this deck and Grixis Delver, Pyroblast is less dead than one might think in the mai. Worst case, it can always be Brainstormed back. But the potential upside and getting people off guard can be very strong. Usually no more than a 1-of.

Murderous Cut – A slightly more fringe removal spell. This card can help solve the deck’s inability to deal with large resolved threats. Careful running it with Gurmag Angler and Tasigur, as your graveyard is a limited resource also shared by DRS and Snapcaster. The other drawback is that it is not useful in the early game, where a fast Delver or DRS can apply a lot of pressure on you.

Spell Snare/Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce - These are less often run in the maindeck since they are more narrow. Spell Snare has a few decks where it misses too often, though it is a great tempo card. Spell Pierce is great against combo decks but falls short against creature-based strategies and is a bad card in the late game. Flusterstorm is again great again combo and not as dead of a late draw, but is even more narrow than Spell Pierce.

Diabolic Edict – Sometimes seen as a 1-of MD to help deal with large creatures and TNN and usually our only out in the MD. A solid removal spell but fairly expensive at 2 mana, especially when Legacy has so many 1-mana creatures. More commonly seen as a sideboard card since there are too many situations where it is a dead card.

Punishing Fire/Grove of the Burnwillows – To play the ultimate grindy deck, some may opt for the infamous Punishing Grove combo. It can be good if your meta has a lot of small creature decks like DnT, Elves, Delver, and the mirror. Note that this requires severe tweaking of the removal suite and the manabase for it to work.

Planeswalkers

Jace, the Mind Sculptor – What is a control deck without the (arguably) best planeswalker ever printed? Jace is particularly resilient as a card advantage engine in this deck due to the high density of removal spells, sticky creatures like Baleful Strix, and backup disruption. This card should generally be saved for once you have an advantage on the board and can keep Jace alive for a turn, at which point, you can simply ride out his card advantage to victory. His brainstorm ability is very potent in this deck due to the high individual card quality. Getting a KCommand or Baleful Strix gets you a lot of extra mileage. I also want to draw attention to his bounce ability, which is not only an additional out to a resolved Griselbrand or Emrakul, but can be used on your own Snapcasters and Strixes for value. When you have a solid control of the game, Fateseal can literally seal your opponent’s fate as you filter their draws of useful cards while Jace ticks up to his ultimate. While it does cost 4 mana, DRS helps out greatly in being able to cast him. Run 2.

Liliana of the Veil – Sometimes run as a 1-of paired up with your Jaces. It usually fills one of the removal spell slots as a pseudo-Diabolic Edict. This can be quite handy as one of our few outs to TNN or a resolved Show and Tell/Reanimate. LotV is still a debated card. Some camps argue that due to our higher average quality, we will often win in a topdeck war. Additionally, many of our cards can be recurred from the graveyard using Snapcaster and Kcommand. Coming down as early as t2 off a DRS, LotV can also apply significant pressure to a combo deck. It even has merit against control decks who often lack strong Planeswalker removal, especially because LotV cannot be Red blasted. Another school of thought is that Liliana is simply a weaker 3 mana removal spell, and does not fit in well with the deck's reactive gameplan (we run almost all instants and a number of creatures with flash). The choice is up to you and I urge you to playtest with her to see if you like the playstyle.

Liliana, the Last Hope – Another Liliana that has been seen in a few lists floating around. It has become more popular in recent lists (11/2017) due to the increased popularity of Czech Pile, DnT, and Delver decks, where her +1 can take out many common creatures and threaten a game-winning ultimate. Paired up with our removal suite and Baleful Strixes, it often isn't hard to keep her alive. Usually a 1-of if run.


Manabase

Fetchlands – These are the most important part of your manabase, even more so than the dual lands. They enable the best card in the deck, Brainstorm, in what has become the most important interaction in Legacy. Seeing three new cards and putting the 2 least relevant back, then potentially shuffling them away allows you to easily sculpt your hand for each situation. Additionally, fetchlands can actually access more colors than a dual land can. Polluted Delta, for example, can fetch every single dual and basic in the deck, giving you virtual access to every color. This distribution of fetchlands is based around what dual lands we run. The fetches that can access the most types of lands are present in higher numbers.

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
These fetch all of the duals in your deck, and Scalding Tarn only fails to find basic Swamp.
Verdant Catacombs
Misty Rainforest
Usually 1-2 more fetches for a total of 9-10 is correct. Verdant catacombs cannot find Volcanic Island or Island, but can still get every color. Misty Rainforest fails to find Badlands and Swamp, but can again access every color if need be. Bloodstained Mire is worse in this case because it can never fetch a green source. If Hymn to Tourach is in your main, you may want to consider Verdant Catacombs and even Bloodstained Mire more in your main over Misty and even the fourth Tarn.

Dual Lands – These make up most of the rest of the manabase. As mentioned before, when combined with fetchlands, they make color access close to a non-issue. The exact distribution is based around the colors we run and ones we want access to the most.

3-4 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
U and B are the main colors of the deck, followed by R. G is only used for Leovold, Decay, and DRS activations, but having 2 sources means you are less likely to be completely cutoff by a Wasteland. Again, if Hymn is in your maindeck, Bayou may be swapped in for the second Tropical. The higher number of duals combined with fetches actually makes for a surprisingly resilient manabase, even against mana denial. However, you are very weak to Price of Progress.

Basics – We still want to be able to play around Wasteland, Blood Moon, and Price of Progress when we can. Having 2 basics allows us to do so.
1 Island
1 Swamp
The two primary colors in the deck, you usually want access to at least U and B. If you get Blood Moon’d, this gives you 3 out of your 4 colors.

Wasteland – Sometimes run as a 1-3-of to deal with problematic lands like Tabernacle, Cradle, Rishadan Port, Glacial Chasm, and various manlands. In fringe cases can also make yourself slightly better against Price of Progress, which is a big problem for this deck. However the deck is extremely color-intensive and the colorless mana from Wasteland strains your manabase. A high risk, high reward card. An issue of contention is the configuration of Wasteland and basic lands. A greedier deck would forgo basics for 2 Wasteland. This makes for a more inherently powerful deck with more answers but destabilizes your manabase. There will be lost games simply because you are unable to access the correct colors or getting blown out by opposing Wastelands. Another configuration is to run both Wasteland AND the basics, instead cutting down on duals and fetches. This is stronger against Wasteland but you now have a higher chance of color-screw. The choice is yours and somewhat meta dependent, but 2 basics and 0 Wasteland seems to be the most popular option.

We typically do not run other non-basics since hitting our colored land drops is so important, and often make full use of our mana every turn.

Sideboard

Against graveyard:

Surgical Extraction – Dredge is not often seen these days but Reanimator, both BR and UR are legitimate threats and Surgical is the best tool against them. Costing only 2 life, it is active on turn 0 and can also be used to nab reanimation spells to greatly reduce their threat density. Against other combo decks, boarding in Surgical is contentious but can be used similarly to remove threat density, pairing especially well with our countermagic and discard. For example, if you manage to Extract Show and Tell, you only ever have to worry about Sneak Attack for the rest of the game. It simply reduces the number of live draws your opponent has. Not as effective versus Storm decks that have more redundancy. Against Dredge, you have to pick your targets carefully. Hit them where they are weakest. If they only have 1 dredger, that should be your target. You can target Narcomeobas on the stack to mess up an otherwise good dredge. Bridge from Below is another option if they already have an established board but you can also use removal on your own creatures to remove Bridges.
Another cool trick-if you see multiples copies of cards in their hand with a Thoughtseize, or see shared cards between their graveyard and hand, Surgical can get extra value. Playing after their draw step also slightly increases the chance of grabbing a card from their hand.

Nihil Spellbomb – If Dredge is more common in your metagame, Nihil Spellbomb is better. We do not want Relic of Progenitus since we have interactions with our own graveyard (DRS, Snapcaster, Kcommand).

Leyline of the Void – A much more fringe option, Leyline of the Void is a much more swingy graveyard hate card. In your opening hand, it can often just end games immediately; reanimator usually has no way to remove it but Dredge might board in Nature's Claim against you. But drawing into it on turn 4 is usually much to slow against the decks we want it for. Still, it is pretty easily castable in this deck with the heavy black manabase and DRS. Keep in mind it does not affect cards currently in the graveyard, so they might Entomb in response for example.

Against specific colors:

Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast – Your best option against Blue-based control lists and one of the main reasons why we splash red. It also notably hits TNN before it comes into play, helps you win counter wars and can double as removal against common threats like Delver, Show and Tell, and Jace.

Blue Elemental Blast/Hydroblast - Not as common of an option but it can be useful if your meta has a lot of Burn/Dragon Stompy/Sneak Attack decks.

Against combo:

Flusterstorm – Your strongest option against combo decks. Nigh uncounterable and just a single mana, Flusterstorm should always be in your board. It may also be better than Force against certain Delver decks since there is no card disadvantage.

Thoughtseize/Duress – Double up on your maindeck disruption. Again, the combination of discard + countermagic is extremely strong against combo. Usually 1-2 copies in the board suffices.
Therapy is less good here since we don’t have Young Pyromancer and Gitaxian Probe synergies and run few throwaway creatures to begin with.

Invasive Surgery – An alternative to Flusterstorm. Really good against things like Show and Tell put misses on some key cards like Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, and opposing countermagic.

Mindbreak Trap – A less often played card simply because it is much more narrow and difficult to hardcast. If storm is big your meta, it may be worth some thought. Flusterstorm is still better 90% of the time.

Vendilion Clique – If not run in the MD, a singleton Clique in the board can help greatly in combo-matchups and matchups where you need to race.

Removal:

Against many matchups, you will need more removal, either for specific threats like TNN, large threats like Griselbrand, or wide strategies like elves. A removal suite of 5-6 cards in the sideboard is common. Here are the typical choices.

Diabolic Edict – A very needed card against Reanimator and Sneak and Show style decks as well as Marit Lage from Lands. Our only way of getting rid of a resolved fatty short of them attacking into Baleful Strix. Also useful against opposing True-Name Nemesis and Gurmag Anglers that normally would be difficult to remove.

Marsh Casualties – A great sideboard card against small creature-based decks. Elves, Death and Taxes, and Delver mostly. Being one-sided means it can just be a blowout, and it notably hits TNN. Double black is fairly easy to hit in this deck.

Toxic Deluge – Alternative to Marsh Casualties that is better at killing larger creatures. However, it also kills your own creatures. More effective if you have a Planeswalker out or run some number of larger creatures (Tasigur, Gurmag Angler).

Engineered Explosives – Another out to a resolved planeswalker or enchantment. It also is useful against tokens from Empty the Warrens, Entreat the Angels, and dredge. Notably, you can fairly easily generate 4 and even 5 colors of mana if needed.

Forked Bolt – An amazing card against all the 1-toughness creatures in Legacy. Can easily 2-for-1 for just 1 mana against the right decks.

Abrupt Decay – Additional copies of Abrupt Decay can sometimes be justified in the board if you are particularly worried against artifact and enchantment based strategies.

Fatal Push – Additional copies of Fatal push may be warranted when you want more targeted creature removal.

Grim Lavamancer – A less widely played sideboard card that is great versus creature-based strategies. The drawback is that is cannot get rid of a creature the turn it comes into play, is vulnerable to removal itself, and shares your graveyard with Snapcaster and Deathrite Shaman. If it stays on the board though, you will gain an insurmountable advantage against decks like Elves, Death and Taxes, and Delver.

Engineered Plague/Dread of Night - If your meta is filled with Elves and/or Death and Taxes, these can be a great option. Naming Merfolk can also stop TNN, but is awkward if you run your own-they should be sideboarded out if you plan to run these for opposing TNN. Other options like Marsh Casualties might be stronger though.

Izzet Staticaster – A less played option that is again great at dealing with lots of small creatures. Fairly expensive at 3 mana for 1 damage but it has Flash and will gain you incremental value over time. Misses a lot of important targets like DRS and Stoneforge Mystic, however.

Golgari Charm – Another less played choice, but a flexible one. It is great against Elves and TNN and hits critical enchantments like Sneak Attack, Aluren, Leyline of Sanctity that Abrupt Decay misses. Unfortunately many of your creatures also have 1 toughness.

Miscellaneous:

Pithing Needle – A great catch-all against Sneak Attack, Griselbrand, Jace, Aether Vial, Equipment. You name it (literally).

Blood Moon – It may seem counterintuitive to run Blood Moon in a deck with so many nonbasics, but you can easily fetch your 1/2 basics and then you still have access to at least three of your colors, more if you have DRS. It completely cripples the decks you would bring this in against (Lands, Eldrazi, BUG Delver), as it makes it extremely difficult for them to cast spells and is almost impossible to remove. Keep in mind your Brainstorms become immediately worse as you will no longer be able to shuffle away cards through fetching.

Umezawa’s Jitte – Can be an option in grindy midrange matchups, Jitte breaks board stalls wide open. It can also be another source of lifegain against aggressive decks like Burn and UR Delver but 4 mana is a large commitment against these fast decks.

III. Decklists

Noah Walker, SCG Team Constructed Baltimore 2017, 1st Place/822

Creatures [14]

2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Snapcaster Mage

Instants [16]

1 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Pyroblast
2 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

Sorceries [7]

1 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder

Planeswalkers [3]

1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands [20]

1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Volcanic Island
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta

Sideboard [15]

1 Sylvan Library
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Flusterstorm
1 Hydroblast
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

Jacob Haversat, GP Vegas 2017, 7th Place/2656

Creatures [14]

1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman

Instants [17]

1 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Counterspell
2 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

Sorceries [7]

1 Toxic Deluge
2 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder

Planeswalkers [2]

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands [20]

1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard [15]

1 Thoughtseize
3 Diabolic Edict
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Flusterstorm
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique

supachai
07-20-2017, 02:56 AM
IV. Matchup Analysis and Sideboarding [Work in Progress]

Please note that general the sideboard strategies below are based on my own list. Take these as a suggestion of what types of cards to remove and add. [Still in the progress of completing the matchup analyses and will occasionally update based on newfound experience and discussion. Any feedback is welcome and appreciated!]

Czech Pile [even]

The mirror is always interesting. And in this case, can be extremely grindy. You have to squeeze every last bit of value to out-grind your opponent. Having Deathrite advantage (more DRS so you can force your activations through) is very critical. These are must-kills. Leovold and Jace are likely the best cards in the matchups. If either stays on one side of the board for very long, that player will likely run away with the game. Jace can be especially threatening since our creatures are small thus making it difficult to remove. TNN builds will shine here. When you drop yours, make sure you can protect it through opposing counter magic and opposing creatures. Bolt is also a real card in the matchup, so upticking Jace at least once is often the correct play. Having a greater number of CA spells like Kcommand, Night’s Whisper, Hymn, and even Strix will allow you to pull ahead over time. Post board is very interesting as a lot of your hate cards stop your own threats as well. Pithing Needle, Toxic Deluge are not great, but might be necessary for when you are behind. Like most other mirrors, it really is the greatest test of skill. Especially so in a control mirror, where the game will often grind on for a long time-whoever can make the most efficient use of their resources will usually win.

+2 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Marsh Casualties
+1 Forked Bolt
+2 Flusterstorm
-2 Force of Will
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Vendilion Clique
-1 Fatal Push

Grixis Delver [slightly favored]

Currently the most widely played deck in Legacy, this is one you will surely run into. You generally have enough removal to sustain yourself to the late game, but a fast Delver or two, or a Young Pyromancer and quickly get out of hand. You have few maindeck answers to a hoard of tokens, so these are all must-answer threats. TNN is also a problem card if they topdeck it lategame when your life total is getting low, since it forces a race, and that is the weakest aspect of this deck. Baleful Strix is an amazing card in this matchup since it kills Delver and Gurmag and almost always 2-for-1’s them. Watch out for Stifle and Wasteland on your manabase. Keep in mind that most decks usually run Therapy or Stifle but rarely both. Post board gets better as you have better removal and better answers to TNN.

+1 Marsh Casualities
+1 Forked Bolt
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Diabolic Edict
+1 Flusterstorm
-2 Force of Will
-1 Vendilion Clique
-1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-2 Thoughtseize

UR Delver [unfavored]

A hyper aggressive deck that is backed up by countermagic. Similar to burn, this deck can come blazing out of the gates with its prowess triggers and rush down your life total in a hurry. Game 1 is slightly better since they usually only run 2 Price of Progress in the main. Post board gets a little better since you shave your high cost cards and become much more low to the ground, but they also get 2 more Price of Progress. [anything else to add here? Would be appreciated.]

+1 Forked Bolt
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Toxic Deluge
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+2 Flusterstorm
-2 Thoughtseize
-2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-2 Kolaghan’s Command
-1 Vendilion Clique

BUG Delver [slightly favored]

BUG Delver is similar to Grixis Delver in terms of matchup but slightly easier in my opinion. They are not as low to the ground-they run more expensive removal spells and can't burn you or your Planeswalkers out. Your Strixes and removal suite lines up better with their threats (Goyf, Tombstalker instead of Young Pyro). If they are on the TNN version, your life is slightly more difficult. If you know your counter shields are down against an potential TNN, make sure you are in a position to race. The other scary card to watch out for is Hymn to Tourach. An early Hymn can leave you in a tough spot, so make sure you keep some number of Counterspells vs them. The boarding plan is pretty similar for both versions as their threats are answered the same way. Note that -1/-1 effects are much weaker against them compared to Grixis. Keep their creatures at bay and a Jace will be very hard for them to beat.

+1 Diabolic Edict
+2 Flusterstorm
+1 Red Elemental Blast
-1 Thoughtseize
-1 Force of Will
-1 Vendilion Clique
-1 Kolaghan’s Command

Grixis Control [even]

This matchup is kind of like a combination between the mirror and Grixis Delver. They can't kill you as quickly due to lack of Delver but they can overwhelm you with powerful threats like Young Pyromancer, Gurmag Angler, and TNN. Your CA is generally better than theirs though so you will have a stronger late game as long as you can deal with TNN. Bring in cards that are good against hordes of 1 toughness creatures and your Edicts and you should be fine.

+1 Marsh Casualties
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+2 Diabolic Edict
-2 Force of Will
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Vendilion Clique

Death and Taxes [favored]

This matchup is not too challenging. You run a huge amount of cheap removal for their creatures and can easily out-CA them in the lategame. Having at least 4 maindeck answers to their equipment is also very handy, and a single well-timed Kcommand can often just blow them out. The only things to be wary of are land-light hands, where you can get Wasted/Ported/Thalia’d out of the game. Prioritize your land drops, and you should easily stay alive until the late game where you have the advantage. Make sure you save a Lightning Bolt or Jace for Mirran Crusder though. Post board gets even better. You board in a metric ton of additional removal and it is almost impossible for them to keep anything on the board. As Czech Pile becomes a more dominant force, DnT decks have adjusted to the meta and now often run multiple copies of Mirran Crusader, up to a playset even. Be wary of these threats as outside of Edict and Bolt, they are very hard to deal with.

+1 Forked Bolt
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Marsh Casualties
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Engineered Explosives
+2 Diabolic Edict
-4 Force of Will
-2 Counterspell
-2 Thoughtseize

Blade Control [slightly favored]

Control mirrors are always interesting. Against Blade Control we have the right tools to remove their equipment and small creatures and can usually outpace them in card advantage. The only problematic card is TNN so always be wary, as a resolved one forces you to race, and we all know how great this deck is at racing (it can be done, just challenging). Bring in cards to deal with TNN and the postboard should become easier.

+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Marsh Casualties
+2 Diabolic Edict
-2 Force of Will
-1 Thoughtseize
-1 Lightning Bolt

Miracles [even]

With Miracle's growing resurgence, this is a matchup we have to learn how to play again. Their deck is very slow and they will spend the first few turns playing cantrip after cantrip. We are slightly stronger CA wise-Strix+Kcommand is slightly stronger than their Predict engine. You only have to make sure you don't get more than 2-for-1'd by Terminus. Having Clique, Leovold, or TNN out really increases the pressure on them and forces them to find a Terminus. Our removal is mostly dead against them, but make sure you save a removal spell, preferably Fatal Push or Abrupt Decay for a potential Monastery Mentor. Their greatest threats are Jace, and Entreat the Angels. Always keep in mind if you are prepared to deal with either of them on their next turn. Vendilion Clique on their draw step if you are worried about a Jace. Dig for a counterspell if you are not prepared for Entreat. Keep these threats from resolving and you are in very good shape. Post board we get more removal spells and an additional out or 2 to a resolved Entreat. Gameplan is the same: counter their main threats and you will find that Miracles is actually a very threat-light deck.

+2 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Vendilion Clique
-1 Fatal Push
-1 Lightning Bolt
-1 Kolaghan’s Command
-1 Baleful Strix

Sneak and Show [favored]

Sneak and Show is a relatively favored matchup. Discard, countermagic, Leovold, and Baleful Strix all team up together to make life rough for your opponent. Sometimes they have the nuts and you simply don’t have enough countermagic, but once you survive the initial attempt or two, you should easily ride your CA to victory. Post board, you bring in a wide variety of hate and drop all the dead cards, making the matchup very in your favor. Surgical extraction is debatable, but if you can nab Show and Tell, or one of their 2 creatures, their threat density lowers dramatically and Leovold or Jace will easily slow their digging down to a crawl. Pithing Needle after you’ve extracted their SnTs is often just game over. Most lists now run Defense Grid, Blood Moon, or Leyline of Sanctity in the board. If you expect first 2, Abrupt Decay should be kept in. We don’t really have an answer to Leyline short of EE for 4, so there’s an argument for not bringing in the extra Thoughtseizes.

+2 Red Elemental Blast
+2 Thoughtseize
+2 Flusterstorm
+2 Diabolic Edict
+1 Surgical Extraction
+1 Pithing Needle
-2 Lightning Bolt
-2 Fatal Push
-2 Abrupt Decay (keepable if you suspect Defense Grid/Blood Moon, in which case -1 Ponder, -1 Thoughtseize)
-2 Kolaghan’s Command
-1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-1 Baleful Strix

Reanimator [favored]

Like Sneak-and-Show, these 1+2 combo decks are good matchups. Your discard + countermagic in the maindeck attacks them from multiple angles so it is difficult for them to assemble their combo. In addition, Leovold can stop Griselbrand from drawing cards, and if you stick a DRS, it becomes very very hard for them to win. Baleful Strix is also often a problem for them to attack into. Your sideboard was practically made to decimate this deck, as you board in a whopping 9 or more cards, basically removing any dead cards in your main. A different to point out is BU version vs BR. You a bit stronger vs BU, since BR is about half a turn to a turn faster and can sometimes get under your protection, especially with Chancellor of the Annex. In general you want to counter the enabler - Entomb, rather than the reanimation spell.

+2 Flusterstorm
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Vendilion Clique
+2 Diabolic Edict
+1 Pithing Needle
-2 Lightning Bolt
-2 Fatal Push
-2 Abrupt Decay
-2 Kolaghan’s Command

Storm [even]

(User FZA on The Source) I've found that despite the amount of disruption it plays, Czech Pile can struggle with storm because of its inability to shut the door quickly. In game 1 a good storm player will often be able to sculpt a hand that can go off through your disruption. Leovold is extremely key in this matchup, if you are able to stick one early you have a very good chance to win otherwise it is going to be tough. Post board things improve with more disruption coming in for your dead removal spells. I like to bring in answers to Empty the Warrens even against ANT, as the vast majority of ANT lists are playing it for this type of matchup some even main deck.

+2 Flusterstorm
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Vendilion Clique
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Surgical Extraction
-2 Kolaghan’s Command
-2 Fatal Push
-2 Abrupt Decay

Belcher [favored]

Like most Belcher matchups, if you have Force of Will, you are already doing better than average. In addition, we typically run 2 Counterspell + 2 Thoughtseize in the main. This makes for a fairly strong gameplan. However, one of the biggest strengths of Belcher is not knowing whether or not you are playing against it. Sometimes you will keep strong hands without Force and they will just combo out turn 1/2. It is generally not worth mulling away a strong 7 card hand just to get Force of Will against an unknown opponent, so you have to play proactively. If your hand can in no way beat a turn 1/2 combo, simply assume they are not on it. If you have a sweeper and a few cantrips to potentially dig, be prepared to do so. T1 Thoughtseize is also often the correct play over DRS against an unknown deck. If you do have Force, it is important to know which spell to counter. If they begin to combo off, think about if they are more likely to win with Belcher, Empty the Warrens, or Burning Wish. Belcher and Wish can be Forced but if they seem to be building storm for Empty the Warrens, you need to stop the ritual that gets them enough mana. Unlike storm combo, it is fairly difficult for Belcher to rebuild and sculpt their hand, so once you survive the initial onslaught, they are usually done. If you happen to get combo'd out game 1, no worries. Bring in your Flusterstorms, extra discard, Pithing Needle and cheap sweepers and you should comfortably have enough answers. I would still keep in some of your removal for Xantid Swarm, as that is their only real way to interact with you.

+2 Flusterstorm
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Marsh Casualties
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Forked Bolt
-2 Fatal Push
-2 Abrupt Decay
-1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
-3 Baleful Strix

Elves [slightly unfavored]

Elves is a tricky matchup. They can sometimes just combo off turn 3 and kill you but can also play a longer, grindy game. Your removal doesn’t match up as greatly since all their threats are so cheap, and using Visionary + Symbiote, they can generate a lot of card advantage as well. Symbiote usually needs to be your #1 target for removal since it gives them favorable attacks in addition to card advantage. Pendelhaven and Cradle are especially annoying since we do not have Wasteland. Watch out for Symbiote + Reclamation Sage tricks on your Baleful Strix. Post board things get a bit better since you now have mass removal which can blow them out. Overall, it is a winnable matchup with tight play.

+1 Forked Bolt
+1 Marsh Casualties
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Engineered Explosives
-2 Kolaghan’s Command
-1 Vendilion Clique
-1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Eldrazi [slightly favored]

(User ashent on The Source) I feel the Eldrazi matchup is slightly favored, mostly off the back of 3-4 Baleful Strix in most decklists. Some people that have moved down to 2 Strix mainboard may find their results are not as good against this deck, because the Owl is our best card in the matchup. Czech Pile with 2 Abrupt Decay, 2 KCommand, and multiple Snaps is very well suited to beat up on Eldrazi by living through Chalice due to built-in artifact destruction and once you establish a Strix blocking for a Jace you can put the game away quickly. Watch out for Walking Ballistas, which they sometimes run in the main or the board. It kills most of your threats pretty easily and can surprise a Jace.

+2 Diabolic Edict
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Pithing Needle
-1 Force of Will
-1 Counterspell
-2 Lightning Bolt

Burn [heavily unfavored]

Probably your worst matchup. They are so fast out of the gates that is it difficult for you to keep up and they can more or less ignore your CA. Price of Progress is a huge beating against you and Eidolon punishes you hard. Your creatures also match up very poorly to theirs in combat. The only way to win is to get an early DRS, keep it alive long enough to use its lifegain once or twice, and save a counterspell for that Price of Progress/Fireblast. Post board doesn’t get much better, since you have very little to board in. If this deck is widely prevalent in your meta, sideboard aggressively using cards like Umezawa’s Jitte, or play a different deck. In general though, we can simply accept one bad matchup and move on.

+2 Flusterstorm
+1 Forked Bolt
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Infect [slighty favored]

You run quite a bit of removal, which is always good against Infect. Strix is great at blocking their creatures, including Inkmoth Nexus. Just make sure you watch out for Berserk. We don't run Wasteland so Inkmoth Nexus is slightly harder to deal with (remember Abrupt Decay cannot hit it). Try to focus aggressively and removing their creatures with your discard and countermagic. Otherwise you are forced to react to every pump spell they play. You have quite a number of strong removal cards to board in, often even netting you 2-for-1s but don't be afraid to use them even if they only have 1 creature.

+1 Forked Bolt
+1 Marsh Casualties
+2 Flusterstorm
-1 Vendilion Clique
-1 Kolaghan’s Command
-1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Aggro Loam [slightly unfavored]

One of the rare decks where you will be playing the role of aggro. You need to kill them or disrupt them before they can assemble Punishing Fire + Grove. You are especially weak to this since we typically do not run Wasteland and 2 damage kills nearly all of our creatures. Your best way is to use Thoughtseize or countermagic + DRS or Vendilion Clique to nab it from their hand while they are tapped out. The timing is often tricky and a good player will not let their guard down since it is their best card against us. Their threats are not particularly scary as they are all easily hit by our removal suite. We also have 4 main deck answers to Chalice of the Void, which is great. Their mana denial plan is very detrimental in the long game though, as almost our entire mana base is nonbasic. Another reason to finish them sooner rather than later. Post board gets a little better since you can Surgical their Punishing Fires. They often bring in Choke, so Abrupt Decay will be useful to keep.

+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Diabolic Edict
-1 Kolaghan’s Command
-1 Lightning Bolt
-2 Force of Will

Lands [unfavored]

(User FZA on The Source) Lands is one of the toughest matchups due to the insane amount of value generated by Life from the Loam ("Landcestrall Recall") and the lack of Wasteland making it very tough to interact with the Dark Depths combo. This is another matchup where Leovold is key, making Punishing Fire, Wasteland, Port and Ghost Quarter way worse. Often once you have a Leovold on the board they will have to shift game plans and try to go for the combo as quick as possible, as grinding you down is no longer an option. Sometimes you can also steal wins by eating important lands or Life from the Loam with Deathrite Shaman, or countering their Punishing Fire targeting Deathrite Shaman and then eating it. Don't count on this working most of the time, though, because the Lands player will usually be able to play around DRS activations. If you want to hedge against this matchup a bit, True Name Nemesis is great as it provides a much-needed clock and is difficult for Lands to deal with. Post board things get a little better with graveyard hate for Loam and Edicts to deal with Marit Lage. Surgical Extraction targeting Loam can be game-winning, but if they have G up watch out for a Tranquil Thicket cycling + dredge in response, which will counter your Surgical. Surgical targeting Thespian's Stage or Dark Depths can also be good if you have a Leovold or TNN in play, or know you can drop one soon. Otherwise this isn't a great play as you'll end up with no mana, no creatures and will die slowly to Punishing Fire or 30 mana worth of Dark Depths activations.

+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Diabolic Edict
+2 Surgical Extraction
-1 Lightning Bolt
-2 Fatal Push
-2 Kolaghan’s Command
-1 Baleful Strix


Dragon Stompy [???]

Food Chain [???]

Dredge [???]

V. Playing the Deck

Aggro or control – One of the most important skills of playing Legacy is figuring out whether you are the aggro or the control in each matchup and situation. Which deck has inevitability? That deck is usually the control. With great card advantage, you can usually outgrind most matchups. Lucky for us because Czech Pile is not great at playing aggressively. When playing control, your goal is to use your variety of answers to fight off your opponent’s threats, whether they be creatures or combo pieces. Survive and use your card advantage spells to gain incremental advantages over your opponent. Eventually, if you do not die first, they will run out of threats and you can lock them out with your card advantage. Against decks like Aggro Loam and Lands, you are oddly playing the aggro deck. They have inevitability in cards like Punishing Fire and Loam + Dark Depths. You cannot answer those combos indefinitely so you must kill them before they get online or disrupt them until you can.

Mana Sequencing – One of the most important aspects of playing a 4 color deck such as this is sequencing your mana properly. Like everything, it depends on a number of factors. Keep in mind if your opponent is likely to have Wasteland or Port to potentially shut you off a color of mana. Do you have Deathrite Shaman in hand? Do you have cantrips to help you dig for more mana if you need it? What spells in your hand are you most likely to need to cast in the next turn or 2? Can the lands in my hand eventually produce a combination of colors so that everything in my hand is cast-able? If you decide to fetch for basics, having 1 basic + 1 dual in the face of Wasteland is actually worse than just having 2 duals, so keep that in mind as well.

Sequencing Ponders and Brainstorm – Ponder and Brainstorm form the backbone of the deck, and you will often have both in hand. If you do not have a fetchland, the correct order to play them depends on the situation. If you Ponder first and then Brainstorm, you can potentially see up to 7 new cards (3 from Ponder + shuffle and draw + 3 from Brainstorm). Brainstorm first, and you will see a maximum of 5 (3 from Brainstorm, 1 new from Ponder + shuffle and draw). So when digging for a specific answer, Ponder first. If you have many dead cards in hand, Brainstorm then Ponder is a great way to shuffle them away if you do not have a fetchland.

The best answer for the job – This deck runs a diverse list of removal spells, and each are slightly better in a certain situations. When you have multiple in your hand, you should consider what removal spells to spend and what to save. For example, when playing against Death and Taxes, Fatal Push cannot hit Mirran Crusader while Lightning Bolt cannot hit a creature with Sword of Fire and Ice. Might you need to save that Abrupt Decay for a future equipment instead of the Thalia on the board now? Against decks with planeswalkers, consider if you might need to save Lightning Bolt for Jace, the Mind Sculptor rather than killing that Snapcaster Mage. Another consideration is mana. If you have 2 mana that is not being used and your removal spells are otherwise interchangeable, maybe Abrupt Decay is better used now so when you Fatal Push a turn later, you have extra mana to potentially cast other spells.

Turn 1 plays – DRS, Ponder, Brainstorm, Thoughtseize. These are all very potent cards, but which is the best T1 play? 90% of the time, DRS is correct. It allows you access to 3 mana on T2, meaning you can play your other 1 drop and still hold up mana for Counterspell or Strix, and offers better protection against Daze. However, in certain situations, DRS may not be ideal. If you lack FoW protection and you are afraid your opponent may be combo, Thoughtseize is usually correct over DRS. If you only have 1 land and it is not a fetch, Ponder is potentially stronger than DRS, especially on the draw. If they remove your DRS and have Wasteland, you are in a dangerous situation. Guaranteeing the second land drop is likely more important.

VI. References and Links

Since 4C Control is a relatively new deck, there is not much literature on the topic. Here is a small compilation of resources.

TCdecks.net:
http://www.tcdecks.net/archetype.php?archetype=4c%20Control&format=Legacy

Ondrej Strasky article:
https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/learning-4c-czech-pile-from-the-master/

Andrea Mengucci article:
https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/4-color-control-in-legacy/

Mengucci also has a video series where he plays the deck on MTGO but it is an outdated list from before the banning of Top. In addition, there are several misplays so watch at your own risk.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWso2two0_k

VII. Closing Thoughts

Czech Pile is a great option in Legacy if you are looking for the ultimate value deck. It exists as the result of an interesting experiment to play all the best cards in the format, using whatever colors necessary (maybe we should try splashing white for Swords to Plowshares?). It has few truly terrible matchups and is consistent in its performance. It is often down to player skill to earn its wins.

Thanks to everyone who helped and contributed in creating this Primer! It wouldn’t be in its current form without all the great feedback I received. Until next time, may your Kolaghan’s Commands bring you many 4 for 1’s.

Darkness
07-20-2017, 05:08 AM
Great primer!

Ayiluss
07-20-2017, 06:15 AM
I'm very happy we finally have a primer this deck deserves and it's a very good one.

Great work man!

Whitefaces
07-20-2017, 06:45 AM
Fantastic primer, nice job!

ashent
07-20-2017, 11:25 AM
Well done.

I'm continuing to play this deck pretty regularly and refine my list (slightly different paper/modo lists though) and as in the last thread in Developmental, will share my tournament reports, my tuning and testing results, and plug my youtube channel when I make uploads. I will run Czech through a few leagues soon when I'm done traveling and hopefully upload a 4-1 or two soon.

mindcrank
07-20-2017, 11:28 AM
Thank you for making a primer! It looks fantastic and is an amazing start! I'm going to offer up the deck list I've been running for ~4-5 months now that has been netting me consistent 3-1 or 4-0 finishes.

Maindeck

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Counterspell
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Thoughtseize

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil

3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn


Sideboard

2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Dread of Night
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Marsh Casualties
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Forked Bolt
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Izzet Staticaster

supachai
07-20-2017, 01:24 PM
Thank you for all the kind words :)

I will do my best to continue work on the matchups section and make adjustments to the descriptions as the deck evolves. If anyone is experienced in any of the remaining matchups and would like to send me a short analysis, I will gladly add it to the primer and credit you properly.

Ascension1223
07-20-2017, 07:56 PM
Can you discuss Belcher as a match up?

ashent
07-20-2017, 08:12 PM
I run into Belcher playing this deck and many like it on xMage (never in paper, and infrequently on MODO) pretty often and always feel generally favored. Like all Blue vs Belcher matches, it is helpful to understand how to mulligan properly and also what spell(s) to counter and what to let resolve. It also helps to be a cautious player that understands the importance of keeping a blind hand with Force that may not look all that impressive against an unknown opponent because they could possibly be on some nonsense like Belcher.

Czech Pile runs 4 Force and (usually) 2 Counterspell main. I also tend to run 2 Thoughtseize main, giving my version a little more turn 1 interaction on the play and some nice help against all-in combo decks. Keeping a hand with Force and then killing the Belcher player with a single Snapcaster or Leovold is plan A. Plan B is to lose game 1 quickly because you kept an unprepared hand game 1 and then bring in your Flusterstorm, any Deluge or Marsh Casualties you have, taking out the slower nonblue cards in your deck, and then mulling to Force and killing them easily.

supachai
07-20-2017, 08:25 PM
I run into Belcher playing this deck and many like it on xMage (never in paper, and infrequently on MODO) pretty often and always feel generally favored. Like all Blue vs Belcher matches, it is helpful to understand how to mulligan properly and also what spell(s) to counter and what to let resolve. It also helps to be a cautious player that understands the importance of keeping a blind hand with Force that may not look all that impressive against an unknown opponent because they could possibly be on some nonsense like Belcher.

Czech Pile runs 4 Force and (usually) 2 Counterspell main. I also tend to run 2 Thoughtseize main, giving my version a little more turn 1 interaction on the play and some nice help against all-in combo decks. Keeping a hand with Force and then killing the Belcher player with a single Snapcaster or Leovold is plan A. Plan B is to lose game 1 quickly because you kept an unprepared hand game 1 and then bring in your Flusterstorm, any Deluge or Marsh Casualties you have, taking out the slower nonblue cards in your deck, and then mulling to Force and killing them easily.

Thanks for the reply! I also just added a section about Belcher in the Primer. Can't believe I forgot about that deck haha. My analysis is pretty similar to yours. Post board games you should just crush them. Only thing to add would be that they often bring in Xantid Swarm so it is wise to keep some cheap removal in the deck.

Ascension1223
07-20-2017, 10:20 PM
I run into Belcher playing this deck and many like it on xMage (never in paper, and infrequently on MODO) pretty often and always feel generally favored. Like all Blue vs Belcher matches, it is helpful to understand how to mulligan properly and also what spell(s) to counter and what to let resolve. It also helps to be a cautious player that understands the importance of keeping a blind hand with Force that may not look all that impressive against an unknown opponent because they could possibly be on some nonsense like Belcher.

Czech Pile runs 4 Force and (usually) 2 Counterspell main. I also tend to run 2 Thoughtseize main, giving my version a little more turn 1 interaction on the play and some nice help against all-in combo decks. Keeping a hand with Force and then killing the Belcher player with a single Snapcaster or Leovold is plan A. Plan B is to lose game 1 quickly because you kept an unprepared hand game 1 and then bring in your Flusterstorm, any Deluge or Marsh Casualties you have, taking out the slower nonblue cards in your deck, and then mulling to Force and killing them easily.

Thank you this is great. Mind posting your version of the list?

Ascension1223
07-20-2017, 10:21 PM
Thanks for the reply! I also just added a section about Belcher in the Primer. Can't believe I forgot about that deck haha. My analysis is pretty similar to yours. Post board games you should just crush them. Only thing to add would be that they often bring in Xantid Swarm so it is wise to keep some cheap removal in the deck.

What do you think about TNN + Jitte? Reminds me of the old Troll Ascetic + Jitte days. Can it win games often enough to be MB? Or is it too slow for this deck and only useful as SB vs burn?

supachai
07-20-2017, 11:13 PM
Thank you this is great. Mind posting your version of the list?

Sure, this is what I'm currently running. It's pretty stock, notably with Vendilion Clique in my flex creature slot. Gives me some sort of clock mainboard but mostly just because it's one of my favorite creatures to play :)

EDIT: oops, totally thought that was towards me. Well here's my list anyway haha.

//Creatures [14]
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Vendilion Clique

//Instants [18]
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push
2 Counterspell
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Lightning Bolt

//Sorceries [6]
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize

//Planeswalkers [2]
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Lands [20]
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp

//Sideboard [15]
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Forked Bolt
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Marsh Casualties
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives

As for TNN, I personally am not a fan. I like playing Czech Pile as reactively and controlling as possible, I think that is where it shines. Even if we run TNN + Jitte, they are usually a 1-2 of. Since we don't run Stoneforge, being on that game plan is not super reliable, strong as it is.

I think if you really want to run TNN, -1 Strix, -1 Clique from my list for +2 TNN is solid. You trade some disruption and CA for sturdier threats and a faster clock.

Ascension1223
07-21-2017, 04:15 AM
Sure, this is what I'm currently running. It's pretty stock, notably with Vendilion Clique in my flex creature slot. Gives me some sort of clock mainboard but mostly just because it's one of my favorite creatures to play :)

EDIT: oops, totally thought that was towards me. Well here's my list anyway haha.

//Creatures [14]
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Vendilion Clique

//Instants [18]
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push
2 Counterspell
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Lightning Bolt

//Sorceries [6]
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize

//Planeswalkers [2]
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Lands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp

//Sideboard
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Forked Bolt
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Marsh Casualties
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives

As for TNN, I personally am not a fan. I like playing Czech Pile as reactively and controlling as possible, I think that is where it shines. Even if we run TNN + Jitte, they are usually a 1-2 of. Since we don't run Stoneforge, being on that game plan is not super reliable, strong as it is.

I think if you really want to run TNN, -1 Strix, -1 Clique from my list for +2 TNN is solid. You trade some disruption and CA for sturdier threats and a faster clock.

20 lands for the double lightning? I would worry about my mana reliability. Looks good though.

supachai
07-21-2017, 05:39 AM
20 lands for the double lightning? I would worry about my mana reliability. Looks good though.

Oops, yeah. Forgot to write the total, but 20 lands is fairly standard. I have not had any issues with the manabase so far. It has been surprisingly stable even in the face of Wasteland/Port/Stifle. Occasionally I have to wait a turn/decide if I want to cast Bolt or Push this turn vs next. Having three red sources is pretty important for all your red sideboard cards.

The only tweaks would be Verdant Catacombs vs Misty Rainforest, and potentially tweaking the dual lands. Instead of Badlands, you could run Bayou + third Volcanic, dropping a fetch. Haversat opted for a third Tropical. I personally prefer having the 10th fetch to make DRS more reliable and Brainstorms marginally better. Haven't been wasted off green mana yet :)

Ascension1223
07-21-2017, 10:28 AM
Oops, yeah. Forgot to write the total, but 20 lands is fairly standard. I have not had any issues with the manabase so far. It has been surprisingly stable even in the face of Wasteland/Port/Stifle. Occasionally I have to wait a turn/decide if I want to cast Bolt or Push this turn vs next. Having three red sources is pretty important for all your red sideboard cards.

The only tweaks would be Verdant Catacombs vs Misty Rainforest, and potentially tweaking the dual lands. Instead of Badlands, you could run Bayou + third Volcanic, dropping a fetch. Haversat opted for a third Tropical. I personally prefer having the 10th fetch to make DRS more reliable and Brainstorms marginally better. Haven't been wasted off green mana yet :)

That's a great point. I may add another fetch in lieu of one of my dual lands.

ashent
07-21-2017, 03:50 PM
Thank you this is great. Mind posting your version of the list?

Hey Ascension, here's my current list. I've been doing a little something different because I wanted to be more aggressive than normal and am back to playing True Names. I typically like a more pure control role, but I'm a bit more proactive recently and I also made a few shaves in order to get 2 Bolts (along with 2 Pushes, to hit 4 pieces of 1 mana removal) in the main. I made the shaves by removing one of the two Counterspells, and moving down to 3 Ponder. This configuration is still in testing. If you don't need TNN in your meta then I would remove him, I just find him a necessary evil at the moment. Also note that this is my online only sideboard where I struggle with a smaller overall collection. Normally in paper I have more 1 of's and definitely DEFINITELY 2 Dread of Night.

20 Lands

1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest

15 Creatures

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 True-Name Nemesis

23 Instants/Sorceries

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
1 Counterspell
1 Night's Whisper
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Force of Will

2 Other

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

SIDEBOARD

2 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Umezawa's Jitte

NegatorITA
07-22-2017, 07:31 PM
Love this deck, best legacy deck feeling in many years while playing it
history wise annotation:
I belive the deck first build should be credited to online user Pellenik,
He was in the miracle era the online pioneer of the 4 snaps 4 deathrite 4 strix grixis control build.
Mar had a different approach running tarmogoyf and hymns rather than counterspell.
The deck both blend with devay first and some leovold then, and the current core was born.


That said I'm still switching between the primer list, and the straight grixis list ( no leovold but angler, no decay more bolt/push) just because of how nuts blood moon is in the board vs certain match up.

Collective brutality also seems a solid card to consider:
It can discard combo and kill their confidant/swarms at the same time or drain then, while vs control you can strip of their countermeasures while dealing with their critters
Definitely a strong option that may need some test even if the deck has already great flexibility, it's still nice because can turn dead cards or extra lands in more value.

supachai
07-23-2017, 12:34 AM
Love this deck, best legacy deck feeling in many years while playing it
history wise annotation:
I belive the deck first build should be credited to online user Pellenik,
He was in the miracle era the online pioneer of the 4 snaps 4 deathrite 4 strix grixis control build.
Mar had a different approach running tarmogoyf and hymns rather than counterspell.
The deck both blend with devay first and some leovold then, and the current core was born.


That said I'm still switching between the primer list, and the straight grixis list ( no leovold but angler, no decay more bolt/push) just because of how nuts blood moon is in the board vs certain match up.

Collective brutality also seems a solid card to consider:
It can discard combo and kill their confidant/swarms at the same time or drain then, while vs control you can strip of their countermeasures while dealing with their critters
Definitely a strong option that may need some test even if the deck has already great flexibility, it's still nice because can turn dead cards or extra lands in more value.

Oh interesting! I did not know that. I'll update the history.

Hmm...Collective Brutality is interesting. I've really liked it in Tin Fins but not sure how well it fits here, since our card quality is high. What would you cut for it? Lightning Bolt maybe? I like having 4 1-mana removal spells though. I also wouldn't cut actual Thoughtseize since having that extra turn 1 interaction against Combo is critical.

NegatorITA
07-23-2017, 08:21 AM
Oh interesting! I did not know that. I'll update the history.

Hmm...Collective Brutality is interesting. I've really liked it in Tin Fins but not sure how well it fits here, since our card quality is high. What would you cut for it? Lightning Bolt maybe? I like having 4 1-mana removal spells though. I also wouldn't cut actual Thoughtseize since having that extra turn 1 interaction against Combo is critical.

They run in here in the board, basically replacing vendilion, or bolt or thoughtseize when running These, like some list had 4 thoughtseize in the mix, someone throw a split of the two discard spells.
I admit it fit more grixis list rather than our 4c build, yet is still a versatile card we can use, and should not be forgotten when needing help
Vs storm seems (seems, I repeat) quite powerful.

here (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=24009) at position 4/5 you can see a sample of what I'd still call Chez-pile, just green less.

supachai
07-27-2017, 02:45 AM
Small weekly Legacy tournament report. Went 2-1-1 but really should have been 3-1. Forced to draw a game I was clearly ahead in. Gotta learn to play faster.

Round 1: Lands
G1: He plays T2 Manabond after I played a T1 Ponder off Island. He dumps Dark Depths + Stage and I scoop after my draw since I don’t have any outs and want to keep him guessing on what I am. (he later said he thought I was Sneak and Show)
G2: He looms for a couple turns while I play a T3 Leovold. His Maze of Ith is pretty bad against that so I knock him down to 10 life pretty quickly. Somewhere I get a Needle on his Thespian’s Stage and play a DRS and he scoops it up.
G3: I Thoughtseize and see 3 Thespian’s Stage, a Maze, and some mana lands. I get a DRS out and start chipping away at his life total. He attempts a Punishing Fire but I Force it. When he tried to get it back with Grove, I Surgical extraction. I land a Needle next turn and his only outs are Tireless Tracker and Dark Depths the hard way. I mess up and forget a Tabernacle trigger one turn but build back up with Clique and DRS. Clique is held at bay with a Maze but DRS is chipping away. He does make a Marit Lage but I have a Diabolic Edict. He plays a Tireless tracker and I go to bolt but he Crop Rotations in response and sacrifices 2 clues to save it (I should have Bolt’d in response to the first clue coming into play). We go to turns and technically I am 1 turn off from killing him but he is a nice guy and scoops it up.

1-0 (2-1)

Round 2: BUG Delver
G1: I see 2 lands the entire game, one of which is Wasted. Delver does what Delver does and rushes me down while I’m sitting on an Island with a hand full of removal.
G2: I board in a ton of removal and manage to keep all of his early threats off the board. He eventually gets a Jitte but I keep him off tempo by killing his creatures as he tries to equip. At some point he gets a Hymn off nabbing Jace and Abrupt Decay. Meanwhile DRS and Strix are slowly chipping it away and he eventually packs it in.
G3: Details are blurry here but we both make a couple creatures. I think a counter a Hymn. I flash in a Clique to trade with his Delver. He makes a Goyf but I Ponder into Jace and cast it (I knew it was safe since I just Clique’d him). Jace bounces Goyf, leaving me with 2 blockers to his DRS. He casts Toxic Deluge, killing my Strix and Snapcaster I believe, leaving his DRS. I brainstorm with Jace into a K-command to kill the DRS, Counterspell his Goyf next turn and fate seal him to victory.

2-0 (4-2)

Round 3: Grixis Delver
G1: He goes T1 DRS. My T1 Thoughtseize gets Force'd and I know what’s coming: T2 TNN. I’m forced to race. I get a Strix and DRS out and it looks like I’m going to stabilize but my DRS gets bolted before I can gain life and I quickly die.
G2: I kill a few early creatures. Against an empty board I get greedy and play a Jace. He Pyroblasts it and drops TNN. I’m not too far behind in the race though. Things get better after I stick a Clique + DRS. I’m barely able to out race him.
G3: He gets 2 early Delvers but is extremely unlucky and he fails to blind flip 2 or 3 turns in a row. He eventually plays a Jitte. I waste his tempo a big by killing his Delvers as he equips. He double Dazes something (handwriting’s bad). He plays TNN and DRS and I know the last card in his hand is a land. I toxic Deluge for 2 and he is basically out of the game. I have 4 cards with removal, CS, a Strix, and Jace when time is called. I’m unable to finish him in time but this was easily my game. Really gotta play faster :(

2-0-1 (5-3-1)

Round 4: Burn
G1: I know he’s on burn and already accept my fate. I stick a DRS and a Strix as my clock. I counter his first 2 plays which are Searing Blaze on my DRS. I counter a Price of Progress and play a few more creatures. He’s at 10 while I’m at a comfortable 17-I’m feeling pretty good about this. Unfortunately I’m out of counter spells at this point though and he has 5 or 6 lands out. EOT, he goes Pop, Pop, Fireblast, Fireblast, Bolt and I’m dead. Such is the burn matchup.
G2: I Clique away a Price of Progress while he is tapped out and decide to just now play around Pop since I can’t beat it regardless. He gets off a few Searing Blazes and Searing Bloods which really shuts me down and he just burns me out.

2-1-1 (5-5-1), though could have been 3-1 (6-5) Not too bad for facing 2 bad matchups, and basically getting cheesed three different ways in my game 1's.

Deck still feels solid, TNN is a problem G1 but not so much in G2/G3. Hymn to Tourach is a scary card and we should definitely keep in some number of counters for it against BUG. I did finally lose a game to Wasteland/mana screw but otherwise the mana was fine. Lands is a tough matchup but Surgical and Pithing Needle do work against them. Timing is super critical against them and don’t forget your Tabernacle triggers!

walked
07-27-2017, 07:29 AM
Somehow in my trading I ended up with 3 copies of Leovold.

I think the answer is "no" but I want to confirm before I move the third copy: is there any reason whatsoever that I'd ever want to run 3? Like I said, leaning "hard no" but want to be sure I'm not missing something or weird variant somewhere.

Ascension1223
07-27-2017, 08:25 AM
Somehow in my trading I ended up with 3 copies of Leovold.

I think the answer is "no" but I want to confirm before I move the third copy: is there any reason whatsoever that I'd ever want to run 3? Like I said, leaning "hard no" but want to be sure I'm not missing something or weird variant somewhere.

I've never seen it, nor would I advise it. Great card, but already tricky enough to get on board in my meta.

Ascension1223
07-27-2017, 05:49 PM
I've been having trouble against manaless dredge. My hate SB is 2 surgical and 1 spellbomb. I'm extracting bridge and then threats like Ichorid/ Nether spirit which recur. Should I be targeting dredgers? Cabal? Frustrating match up.

ashent
07-27-2017, 08:09 PM
Somehow in my trading I ended up with 3 copies of Leovold.

I think the answer is "no" but I want to confirm before I move the third copy: is there any reason whatsoever that I'd ever want to run 3? Like I said, leaning "hard no" but want to be sure I'm not missing something or weird variant somewhere.

I own 3 and have only ever played the 3rd in the board in BUG Aluren. I would advise against keeping the third, there's no other deck that runs that many.

diablo4488
07-28-2017, 12:47 AM
I've been having trouble against manaless dredge. My hate SB is 2 surgical and 1 spellbomb. I'm extracting bridge and then threats like Ichorid/ Nether spirit which recur. Should I be targeting dredgers? Cabal? Frustrating match up.

Whenever a nontoken creature is put into your graveyard from the battlefield, if Bridge from Below is in your graveyard, put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token onto the battlefield.
When a creature is put into an opponent's graveyard from the battlefield, if Bridge from Below is in your graveyard, exile Bridge from Below.

Don't forget that part. Sometimes it's better to kill your own guy vs them.
If they have the nuts you can do nothing i think, even an Extraction will not save you.

SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Forked Bolt
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Marsh Casualties
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives

This SB for reference i would board in:
+2 Extraction
+1 Deluge (Tokens)
+1 EE (Tokens)
+2 Fluster (Cabal or Dread Return)

-1 Land (If you run 20)
-2 Leovold
-2 AD
-2 Thoughtseize (depending OTP/OTD)

vs. LED Dredge i would also pick up the 2 Pyroblasts vs Careful Study and Breaktrough

grim confident
07-30-2017, 05:14 PM
Whenever a nontoken creature is put into your graveyard from the battlefield, if Bridge from Below is in your graveyard, put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token onto the battlefield.
When a creature is put into an opponent's graveyard from the battlefield, if Bridge from Below is in your graveyard, exile Bridge from Below.

Don't forget that part. Sometimes it's better to kill your own guy vs them.
If they have the nuts you can do nothing i think, even an Extraction will not save you.

SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Forked Bolt
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Marsh Casualties
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives

This SB for reference i would board in:
+2 Extraction
+1 Deluge (Tokens)
+1 EE (Tokens)
+2 Fluster (Cabal or Dread Return)

-1 Land (If you run 20)
-2 Leovold
-2 AD
-2 Thoughtseize (depending OTP/OTD)

vs. LED Dredge i would also pick up the 2 Pyroblasts vs Careful Study and Breaktrough

pick up pyroblast is a good idea.But I would keep thoughtseize and board out counterspell.

Counterspell is Inefficient and delay our tempo.

Medea_
07-30-2017, 06:55 PM
@supachai

I just wanted to say that this was quite the nice writeup. I was looking to do a little reading up on the deck since it's all over the place online, and I found this very helpful.

jimmythegreek
07-31-2017, 01:55 PM
Dredge will get you.

GoblinZ
07-31-2017, 11:26 PM
-2 Thoughtseize (depending OTP/OTD)



I don't like to board out thoughtseize, because they always prefer to play on the draw for discarding, seizing a non-dredger could delay one turn.

supachai
08-01-2017, 03:44 AM
@supachai

I just wanted to say that this was quite the nice writeup. I was looking to do a little reading up on the deck since it's all over the place online, and I found this very helpful.

Thank you for the kind words! Also thank you for all your amazing work on Thraben University! Death and Taxes is my other deck of choice and your site has been an amazing resource.

@Dredge

Does anyone have experience with this matchup? No one at my local shop plays Dredge so I haven't been able to get any playtesting in. If anyone wants to write a short matchup analysis, I would love to add it to the primer (and credit you ofc).

I feel like it's a rough matchup for us. Since we cannot kill them quickly they have time to set up and can very easily outvalue us. Our best plays mainboard are killing our own creatures to remove Bridge and use DRS to remove dredgers. I think the gameplan is to Thoughtseize or counter their initial draw spell(s) to force them on the slow dredge plan. This gives us some time to get an active DRS and/or respond to Bridge triggers. If dredge is big in your meta, I would probably run Nihil Spellbomb over Surgical, and potentially even Leyline of the Void.

Manroe
08-01-2017, 09:45 AM
Has anyone tried a copy or two of Driven//Despair? Seems like an interesting one to me.

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Manroe
08-01-2017, 10:55 PM
Just went 0-2 drop at my local legacy tonight. Already was not feeling well and decided to call it after two rounds. My games were all close but I was paired against Burn and Junk Nic-Fit with a million Siege Rhinos.

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ashent
08-01-2017, 11:29 PM
Top 8'd a small 5 rounder with Czech Pile last week. My blue matchups all went well, as did my Elves games, and my only loss in the swiss was to Loam, completely expected to lose this one. I got knocked out of top 8 to Burn, which was the unluckiest pairing I could have gotten. I have my notes for a tourney report but had to leave town on business so I'll update with them next week sometime. Also have a fun GoPro recording of the Elves games to put on youtube and I'll add that here also.

supachai
08-02-2017, 02:21 AM
Has anyone tried a copy or two of Driven//Despair? Seems like an interesting one to me.

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It's interesting but I don't think it fits well for a couple reasons. It's slow. 2 mana + 2 mana at sorcery speed is hard to justify-notice how our pretty much all of our sorcery speed spells are either 1 mana or win us the game (Jace). Second of all, it encourages aggressive gameplay. We usually want to hold our Strixes and such back to play defense. By the time we are attacking we should already have stabilized. Lastly, I don't think it helps us in any of our weak matchups. CA is almost never where we lose. We usually lose because we get out-raced (Delver, Burn, TNN) or because we can't keep a creature on the board (Punishing Fire). Occasionally we get combo'd out but unfortunately the Driven//Despair doesn't really help us in any of the above situations :(

owerbart
08-02-2017, 04:01 PM
Very well written primer. As a suggestion I would say that the Reanimator matchup depends largely on which build you are playing against. BR and UB are similar on the surface but they are two different animals. Congrats nevertheless on the good article! Keep it up!

supachai
08-02-2017, 04:31 PM
Very well written primer. As a suggestion I would say that the Reanimator matchup depends largely on which build you are playing against. BR and UB are similar on the surface but they are two different animals. Congrats nevertheless on the good article! Keep it up!

Thank you! Very good point on Reanimator. I will take some time to highlight some of the differences when playing against each of the decks.

Went 3-1 at my weekly legacy (7-2 in games!). Only lost a very close game to Eldrazi. Walking Ballista is a huge beating and he topdecked 2 in row in the late game. Otherwise, Strix and Jace are MVPs in this matchup. Kolaghan's Command to take out Jitte, Chalice, Thorn and buying back your Strixes makes it a very potent card. Beat UW Miracles x2 and a BUG control list pretty handily-having access to Red Blast is so amazing.

Updated the matchup section with some new insights.

MorphBerlin
08-05-2017, 09:42 AM
Finally got some of the last cards for my deck, still missing a few things but I'm still gonna post it now:

https://preview.ibb.co/hZHvuv/4_C_Control_MB.jpg
https://preview.ibb.co/j5FFuv/4_C_Control_SB.jpg

Medea_
08-05-2017, 11:08 AM
Hey folks,

Is the D&T matchup really extremely positive for you all? I feel like it's probably close to even. I'm sitting down to write my primer for the site on Thraben University, and I'm trying to collect more data. From the D&T side, I am winning this matchup far more than I expected on MTGO. I'm winning most games that don't involve K. Command into Snapcaster K. Command or the like. I have a very positive matchup against this deck personally, and I'm just trying to figure out if that's a skill gap between me and the average player of Czech Pile. Thoughts?

-Phil Gallagher

MorphBerlin
08-05-2017, 03:07 PM
I would say this MU is slighty favored for 4C agaisnt D&T, since most list play 2 Commands now, the games where you won't see it should be not too many with all our cantrips and it is just a big blowout everytime.

Most of the games I loose feature the nut start of Mother/Vial+Thalia/stoneforge and endless Flickerwhisps or through mana denial, allthough since the games tend to go very long, that is only an issue when the draws line up extreme.

CptHaddock
08-05-2017, 03:54 PM
I would say this MU is slighty favored for 4C agaisnt D&T, since most list play 2 Commands now, the games where you won't see it should be not too many with all our cantrips and it is just a big blowout everytime.

Most of the games I loose feature the nut start of Mother/Vial+Thalia/stoneforge and endless Flickerwhisps or through mana denial, allthough since the games tend to go very long, that is only an issue when the draws line up extreme.

Yeah pretty much, playing this matchup a lot more the only matchups that I really end up losing are the ones where my mana is denied or if I keep a cantrip heavy hand and end up fumbling. Postboard czech pile basically just becomes a Jund deck against D&T and overloads on removal so the matchup ends up being super favorable.

Mr Miagi
08-05-2017, 04:13 PM
Is Rise/Fall not interesting enough for this deck?

wowbobwow
08-05-2017, 10:28 PM
Is Rise/Fall not interesting enough for this deck?
Kolaghans command is better than Rise and Hymn/Thoughtsieze is better than Fall.

grim confident
08-06-2017, 12:05 AM
Has anyone tried the Sylvan Library yet? Is it a bad option in 4C?

ashent
08-06-2017, 12:37 AM
Has anyone tried the Sylvan Library yet? Is it a bad option in 4C?

Library is a great card for non-Brainstorm decks to try to dig a bit. We're already running so many Ponder and Brainstorm and Jace I don't see why we need the Library as well. By all means though test it, it did work out for me sometimes in Shardless.

supachai
08-07-2017, 02:59 PM
Hey folks,

Is the D&T matchup really extremely positive for you all? I feel like it's probably close to even. I'm sitting down to write my primer for the site on Thraben University, and I'm trying to collect more data. From the D&T side, I am winning this matchup far more than I expected on MTGO. I'm winning most games that don't involve K. Command into Snapcaster K. Command or the like. I have a very positive matchup against this deck personally, and I'm just trying to figure out if that's a skill gap between me and the average player of Czech Pile. Thoughts?

-Phil Gallagher

Lost of responses already but I'll add some stuff. Preboard is fairly even, maybe slightly in Czech's favor. Postboard we have so much removal, especially for equipment that it is hard to DnT to keep a creature on the board.

I think it is very likely a skill gap issue. Knowing what and when to spend your removal is important. Find opportunities to kill Thalia before a Karakas comes down. Aether Vial is a must-kill, as it opens up mana denial and Flickerwisp tricks. Figuring out how to make our removal spells/threats line up well against DnT's is key. Also, since most of deck is instant speed, making them waste mana on equips by removing in response happens a lot and is something the DnT player really needs to watch out for.

supachai
08-10-2017, 04:52 PM
Thoughts on this card? Could a be potential 1-of as a late-game finisher. I certainly like it more than Tasigur.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DG4tMRqVwAAY3XV.jpg

Dodges a good amount of removal, and blocks everything from Delver to Flickerwisp. We usually enter the late game with a lot of instants and sorceries in our graveyard and even getting a free Ponder a turn is sweet. While not at its best on your own turn, also noteworthy is that you can pitch-cast Force of Will from your graveyard since it isn't "flashback" like Snapcaster is.

grim confident
08-11-2017, 09:13 AM
Thoughts on this card? Could a be potential 1-of as a late-game finisher. I certainly like it more than Tasigur.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DG4tMRqVwAAY3XV.jpg

Dodges a good amount of removal, and blocks everything from Delver to Flickerwisp. We usually enter the late game with a lot of instants and sorceries in our graveyard and even getting a free Ponder a turn is sweet. While not at its best on your own turn, also noteworthy is that you can pitch-cast Force of Will from your graveyard since it isn't "flashback" like Snapcaster is.

Maybe is a good card but not for legacy. We can cast Tasigur by just 1 mana. If I had 4 mana, I perfer to cast JTMS. And sometimes, we need holding this card unit we have 5 lands, make sure it can value something.

Whitefaces
08-11-2017, 09:32 AM
I think the card could be great in the straight Grixis decks, not sure about Leo piles though, we'll see. It's very strong.

ashent
08-12-2017, 02:22 AM
I'm going to play Kess in Grixis Control and probably Grixis Smasher as well, but likely not in Czech.

Tourney Report (5 rounds) in Hongdae, Seoul KR 7.29

The List:

3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Brainstorm
2 Fatal Push
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
1 Lightning Bolt
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Night's Whisper
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
SB:
2 Pyroblast
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Fire Covenant
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Hydroblast


Rd1 - Elves

Game 1 on the play I kept with decent removal knowing my opponent was on Elves. I killed his early stuff, Thoughtseized two Natural Orders, and even got up to Snap -> KCommand before dying to repeated GSZ, eventually conceding to GSZ X of 8 for lethal. Saw 0 Forces during the game and got outdrawn after stripping his hand early due to a good Glimpse, and didn't put together enough removal. Game 2 on the draw my opponent mulled to 6 and Thoughtseized me, seeing Force, Leo, Fire Covenant, Decay, and KCommand. He read Fire Covenant a couple times and tanked for a while before taking it as expected. Game went long w/ me killing everything over and over, then beating him down with the Leovold. Game 3 he played Dryad Arbor -> Go, then turn 2 GSZ'd for 0 for a second Dryad Arbor, played Gaea's Cradle and tapped it for 2 mana, then cast a Visionary and drew a card. I untapped and used my turn 1 DRS to cast a turn 2 Fire Covenant for 3 and he never recovered.

1-0, 2-1 in games

Rd2 - UW Stoneblade

I won the roll again and played a turn 1 DRS, which my opponent Plowed without fear of Daze, then I cast a second DRS on turn 2 and he untapped, played a second land, and Plowed again. His next turn he slammed a Stoneforge, getting Batterskull. I had counter magic but let it resolve and Pushed it end of turn, then played draw-go until he made a move on attempting to resolve a TNN. I had just stacked two Forces on top of my deck that I was thinking about shuffling when he put it on the stack, so I brainstormed them back into my hand and I forced the TNN, drawing a force out of him, and then trumped it with my second. Out of resources, he died to a Leovold that was my last real card. Game 2 on the draw I had brought in the Fluster and Pyroblasts and the 2 extra Thoughtseizes, then stripped his hand of relevant threats and countered all his Stoneforges until he conceded.

2-0, 4-1 in games

Rd3 - Miracles

I won the die roll for a third time and kept a grindy 7 with DRS and cantrips knowing he was on Miracles. We played a 30 minute grindfest that was very back and forth, almost losing after being in the lead by having a Jace eat an Unexpectedly Absent + Predict into the graveyard, then narrowly Snap + Brainstorming into Counterspell for a huge Entreat the Angels. Game 2 he mulled to 5 and really struggled to keep up with me. Due to his awkward mana and the mulligan, I changed my usual play patterns to Thoughtseize + Snap Thoughtseize and was very aggressive in countering his cantrips. He died to an unanswered DRS and an Owl by being exhausted of cards.

3-0, 6-1 in games

Rd4 - Loam

I was hoping he was 3-0 when I saw the pairing and didn't want to play against him but he was 2-0-1 and wanted to play. I lost the die roll, then conceded to turn 3 Dark Depths + Stage. Game 2 I sided in artifact destruction, hand disruption, and surgicals, kept a hand of good stuff, and turn 1 IOK'd him. I saw Dark Confidant, KOTR, Lili, a Chalice, and 2 lands. I felt like I had KCommand on curve for Chalice + maybe something else, Push and Bolt for creatures, so I stripped the Lili and passed. I think he ripped Mox and made a turn 1 Chalice turning off my removal for Dark Confidant and Knight, and then got Liliana off the next drawstep and I stumbled on mana unable to cast KCommand until the Lili was starting to really pressure my hand. I think I got Wasted here before I could use the KCommand and then lost the game to Chalice with a hand full of 1's and an active Lili staring me down.

3-1, 6-3 in games

Rd 5 - ID with Enchantress

I would have played this round but we were locked for top 8 so I went to get a sandwich.

3-1-1 into top 8

I sat down across from Burn and played an extremely hard 2 games and got knocked out of contention immediately, having gotten the worst pairing available at the table. I think I had 50% chances to be paired up against UW decks, then 25% chances to be paired up with Burn or Loam, and 25% something else that seemed ok. I drew the short straw and lost to Burn immediately. I don't really even have notes.

Whitefaces
08-14-2017, 07:00 AM
I managed to finally get some time in with this deck at GP side events in Birmingham over the weekend. They were only 4 rounds each, but the deck performed well. 3-1 and 3-0-1 with the loss being to lands and the draw being intentional with a friend who was on the same deck as it was late and we wanted to go to a bar.

Pretty stock list. I love the 4 Hymns in the 75 for combo in conjuction with Snappies, feels so powerful vs combo, much better than countermagic. The Liliana was a last minute addition to try out, she performed really well too, munching on DnT, some delvers and other random annoying stuff as well as rebuying Leo and Snaps. Will continue playing with her in the md, and the Gurmag was pretty clutch a number of times to put a faster clock on decks like Burn and combo.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Baleful Strix
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Gurmag Angler

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

4 Ponder
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Fatal Push
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Kolaghan's Command

1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs

SB
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Marsh Casualties
1 Pithing Needle

MorphBerlin
08-15-2017, 07:39 AM
So I started playing MTGO with 4C-Control as this is my favorite deck (though not the best deck imo). It seems like 40-50% of the decks online are Delver (mostly Grixis) and I keep losing to it. Its not even funny like probably 30-70 or something. I don't know if this is just a really bad string of luck (I'm not the best palyer but pretty decent with these grindy decks, and I am not experiencing the same in Paper), as I am losing at least one game per match to screw/flood or drawing 1 Cantrip after going through 1/3 of my deck. Also they keep having the right creatures for my answers, if I have plenty of spot removal they have Angler/TNN, if I have Edicts they have YP and so on.

Enough of the rant, I need to improve my win% drastically or I will switch over to Delver... I am winning most of the mirros or mirror style MUs so it can't be because I am the worst palyer in the World. I think there must be some problem with my approach so I have 2 Questions:

1. Whats your approach to this MU if it is generalizable.

2. Whats you SB Plan look like?

My current build for refence: (I would play a LotV MD over the edict or Cut but did not buy it yet, same with TNN over Gurmag but those are actually about the same.

20 Lands
4 Delta
4 Tarn
2 Mist
3 Sea
2 Volc
2 Trop
1 Badland
1 Island
1 Swamp

14 Creatures
4 Snapcaster
4 DRS
4 Strix
1 Leo
1 Angler

26 Spells
4 Force
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Push
2 Bolt
2 K Command
2 Hymn
1 Decay
1 Deluge
1 D. Edict
1 Murderous Cut
2 Jace

Side:
2 Fluster
3 Blast
1 Marsh C
1 D. Edict
1 Leovold
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Painful Truths

SB Plan:
-2 FoW
-2 Hymn
-1 Leo
-2 Jace

+3 Blast
+2 Fluster
+1 Diabolic Edict
+1 Marsh Casualties

I am not sure If 1Leo and/or Jace should stay in. I jsut don't feel like casting 3/4cmc blastable socery speed cards is where I want to be...

Mzfroste
08-15-2017, 07:54 AM
So I've recently decided that UWx Stoneblade isn't worth playing in this meta given the amount of discard, czech pile running kcommands, and other decks built to outgrind decks like stoneblade, so I'm jumping on the czech pile train. I did play this deck a fair bit right after the top ban before moving off it, and back then main deck thoughtseizes were pretty stock, but looking around it seems most, but not all, have moved away from that, replacing those spots with more spot removal / grind cards. Do you guys not find yourselves missing it for comb? 2 thoughtseizes doesn't seem like an overwhelming amount clogging the deck, they're still live vs other midrange/control decks, and aren't that bad vs delver g1, though I'd probably still side them out. But I do feel like with only 2 Hymn and 4 FOW preboard, combo is a wash g1. Do you just find combo not being popular enough compared to other grindy decks where removal and threats would be a bit better? Or does cutting thoughtseize not hurt combo as much as I think?

Whitefaces
08-15-2017, 08:25 AM
So I've recently decided that UWx Stoneblade isn't worth playing in this meta given the amount of discard, czech pile running kcommands, and other decks built to outgrind decks like stoneblade, so I'm jumping on the czech pile train. I did play this deck a fair bit right after the top ban before moving off it, and back then main deck thoughtseizes were pretty stock, but looking around it seems most, but not all, have moved away from that, replacing those spots with more spot removal / grind cards. Do you guys not find yourselves missing it for comb? 2 thoughtseizes doesn't seem like an overwhelming amount clogging the deck, they're still live vs other midrange/control decks, and aren't that bad vs delver g1, though I'd probably still side them out. But I do feel like with only 2 Hymn and 4 FOW preboard, combo is a wash g1. Do you just find combo not being popular enough compared to other grindy decks where removal and threats would be a bit better? Or does cutting thoughtseize not hurt combo as much as I think?

That's exactly it, there's enough Delver and other creature based decks over combo that I've gone with more removal over the Thoughtseizes. Combo is rough game one, but the sideboard is quite heavily geared to beat it. I'd like to fit a third TS in the board somewhere as curving that into Hymn can be devastating, or perhaps one can fit into the maindeck. Not 100% this is the right approach, but I feel like it's better suited at the moment. Especially online.


SB Plan:
-2 FoW
-2 Hymn
-1 Leo
-2 Jace

+3 Blast
+2 Fluster
+1 Diabolic Edict
+1 Marsh Casualties

I am not sure If 1Leo and/or Jace should stay in. I jsut don't feel like casting 3/4cmc blastable socery speed cards is where I want to be...

Sounds like maybe a rough string of luck, Delver is a pretty decent matchup. I wouldn't bring in that many blasts though, probably just one or two if I've seen multiple TNN. Leovold is good in the matchup too, if they have the answer so be it, but if they don't it's hard to lose. I like to keep one Jace too, they usually only play two blasts these days and we have so many targets with Snaps and Strix etc already, they're always overtaxed.

MorphBerlin
08-15-2017, 08:45 AM
I agree, at least the MODO Meta is super delver heavy so I went down from 2 MD Thoughtseizes as well. It is still fine to play them as they to something against most decks as you said.

I like blast to kill Delver and push through important stuff, but I will try to only board 2. Would you rather keep Jace or Leo?

Also do you know anybody good streaming with the deck? I only saw Jarvis play it quite often lately

JackaBo
08-15-2017, 08:48 AM
So I started playing MTGO with 4C-Control as this is my favorite deck (though not the best deck imo). It seems like 40-50% of the decks online are Delver (mostly Grixis) and I keep losing to it. Its not even funny like probably 30-70 or something. I don't know if this is just a really bad string of luck (I'm not the best palyer but pretty decent with these grindy decks, and I am not experiencing the same in Paper), as I am losing at least one game per match to screw/flood or drawing 1 Cantrip after going through 1/3 of my deck. Also they keep having the right creatures for my answers, if I have plenty of spot removal they have Angler/TNN, if I have Edicts they have YP and so on.

Enough of the rant, I need to improve my win% drastically or I will switch over to Delver... I am winning most of the mirros or mirror style MUs so it can't be because I am the worst palyer in the World. I think there must be some problem with my approach so I have 2 Questions:

1. Whats your approach to this MU if it is generalizable.

2. Whats you SB Plan look like?

My current build for refence: (I would play a LotV MD over the edict or Cut but did not buy it yet, same with TNN over Gurmag but those are actually about the same.

20 Lands
4 Delta
4 Tarn
2 Mist
3 Sea
2 Volc
2 Trop
1 Badland
1 Island
1 Swamp

14 Creatures
4 Snapcaster
4 DRS
4 Strix
1 Leo
1 Angler

26 Spells
4 Force
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Push
2 Bolt
2 K Command
2 Hymn
1 Decay
1 Deluge
1 D. Edict
1 Murderous Cut
2 Jace

Side:
2 Fluster
3 Blast
1 Marsh C
1 D. Edict
1 Leovold
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Painful Truths

SB Plan:
-2 FoW
-2 Hymn
-1 Leo
-2 Jace

+3 Blast
+2 Fluster
+1 Diabolic Edict
+1 Marsh Casualties

I am not sure If 1Leo and/or Jace should stay in. I jsut don't feel like casting 3/4cmc blastable socery speed cards is where I want to be...

How can this deck lose to delver? You run 9 removals + 1 sweeper + 4 strixes + 4 snapcasters. That's more removal than they got creatures.
You run 20 lands + 4 DRS + 8 cantrips, you shouldn't crumble to their mana denial.

MorphBerlin
08-15-2017, 08:50 AM
How can this deck lose to delver? You run 9 removals + 1 sweeper + 4 strixes + 4 snapcasters. That's more removal than they got creatures.
You run 20 lands + 4 DRS + 8 cantrips, you shouldn't crumble to their mana denial.

I guess I should start recoding ganes for oyu to believe me :D

CptHaddock
08-15-2017, 08:52 AM
How can this deck lose to delver? You run 9 removals + 1 sweeper + 4 strixes + 4 snapcasters. That's more removal than they got creatures.
You run 20 lands + 4 DRS + 8 cantrips, you shouldn't crumble to their mana denial.

I wouldn't say that the match is that good. You're favored over delver quite a bit but there are times where you can't fetch out your basics to play around wasteland, or are forced to run out spells and hope that you don't get hit by some soft permission, things like that.

Whitefaces
08-15-2017, 09:35 AM
I agree, at least the MODO Meta is super delver heavy so I went down from 2 MD Thoughtseizes as well. It is still fine to play them as they to something against most decks as you said.

I like blast to kill Delver and push through important stuff, but I will try to only board 2. Would you rather keep Jace or Leo?

Also do you know anybody good streaming with the deck? I only saw Jarvis play it quite often lately

There are so many ways to kill Delver already though, and we force through stuff by simply outgrinding them imo, not using blast on a FoW. Personally I'd just sideboard in one at most. I like Leo a bit more than Jace.

I know Ark4n streams a lot, he's pretty good. https://www.twitch.tv/ark4n11


I wouldn't say that the match is that good. You're favored over delver quite a bit but there are times where you can't fetch out your basics to play around wasteland, or are forced to run out spells and hope that you don't get hit by some soft permission, things like that.

Agree, they can certainly get under you.

grim confident
08-15-2017, 10:19 AM
In my opinion, the match up "VS delver" is good. This is why we play 4c.
But there is some window for delver , such as TNN ,wasteland.

MorphBerlin
08-16-2017, 03:41 AM
There are so many ways to kill Delver already though, and we force through stuff by simply outgrinding them imo, not using blast on a FoW. Personally I'd just sideboard in one at most. I like Leo a bit more than Jace.

I know Ark4n streams a lot, he's pretty good. https://www.twitch.tv/ark4n11



Agree, they can certainly get under you.

Thanks, did watch some stream yesterday and today and see roughly the same play pattern.

I must say it is really hard to watch this guy, annoying and arrogant as hell.

"Come on guys, never Lucky" "He is playing the bad Liliana (of the veil), we are good.""Oh my gooood":laugh:

JackaBo
08-16-2017, 05:02 AM
In my opinion, the match up "VS delver" is good. This is why we play 4c.
But there is some window for delver , such as TNN ,wasteland.

Yeah i didn't mean to sound condecending
Of course delver decks vill have nutdraws, doubble delver, daze, stifle, wastelands, etc - that hardly any fair deck can beat. I mean, that is delver-deck's strength.
But I can't think of any other fair blue legacy deck that has such a strong maindeck versus delver.

Whitefaces
08-16-2017, 05:50 AM
Thanks, did watch some stream yesterday and today and see roughly the same play pattern.

I must say it is really hard to watch this guy, annoying and arrogant as hell.

"Come on guys, never Lucky" "He is playing the bad Liliana (of the veil), we are good.""Oh my gooood":laugh:

Haha, yeah I agree, I watch on mute sometimes :tongue: I don't like that attitude either, but he streams the deck the most I think.

I lost to Grixis Delver too last night fwiw, it happens.

Small recap because why not

R1 vs Esper Deathblade

G1 I Deluge away a SfM and TNN, but he gets another TNN down followed by a Tombstalker. I drop to a low life total, but am able to land a Jace to bounce the Stalker, the TNN then goes after him rather than my life total, another Jace bounces the stalker again and eats it to the TNN too but buys me time (I'm at 4 life this whole time), I then Brainstorm into an Edict and Snapcaster and it's easy from there.

G2 He plays out a lot of guys, 2 DRS, a SfM, TNN and 2 Snaps which counter a Jace and Leovold, but they were bait as I had a Marsh Casualties in my hand and lots of land, so am able to then resolve it around Flusterstorm kicked. My hand is all removal after that and it's easy to lock up.

1-0

R2 vs Grixis Delver

G1 I'm on the play, but can't find any cheap removal with cantrips and slowly succumb to a Delver and DRS after Kommands and Deluges get countered.

G2 is how we want the matchup to play, I have all the removal in the world.

G3 he gets two quick delvers that flip and hit me twice, putting me really low. I need to Deluge them, going to 2 life, then FoW a Forked Bolt. I'm at 1 life for ~5 turns killing him with a DRS (and no green mana, can't fetch). I find a Trop, he find a Ponder which finds a Forked bolt and Stifles the DRS ability to gain life.

1-1

R3 vs Elves

G1 isn't very exciting, I cantrip to find Leo and get him, but don't have a FoW for a No on turn 3.

G2 I have a new Lili t2 which eats his T1 play, followed by all the removal and an ult locks it up.

G3 I keep a 1 lander, which has Ponder, Brainstorm, Flusterstorm, Delta, Marsh Casualties, SCM and a Fatal Push. I considered leaving up Fluster to eot Brainstorm and find a second land, but Ponder instead. I get punished and he goes off with Glimpse T2. Interested to hear if you guys would have held up BS + Fluster there?

1-2

R4 vs BR Reanimator

G1 I fow a Looting and he discards the rest of my hand, but the flashback of the looting doesn't find any fatties. I draw into a couple of Strix which beat down. He gets a Chancellor eventually, but Bolt and Kommand finish it.

G2 He has a T1 Chancellor otp through a Surgical, but I have a couple of Strix and Jace in hand. Strix comes down T3, Jace T5 and it's easy from there.

2-2

Not hugely exciting, the G3 of Elves is bugging me a lot, feel like I should have left up the fluster.

toletole
08-16-2017, 07:26 AM
Against Elves I think the safe line is always kill the first couple of elves you see. In this scenario I would probably Fatal Push his play and Ponder in my next turn (also dig one more card to find the second land).

Whitefaces
08-16-2017, 08:07 AM
Against Elves I think the safe line is always kill the first couple of elves you see. In this scenario I would probably Fatal Push his play and Ponder in my next turn (also dig one more card to find the second land).

Hm, you're right, I don't think I had a Push in hand then now I think back to it, sorry. My options were Ponder or hold up Fluster with Brainstorm if I want to.

I'll include how I sideboarded vs each of the matchups too, good to get some discussion of this going.

vs Esper Deathblade

-4 Fow
-3 Fatal Push (mistake! I didn't see DRS G1, but the Tombstalker should have told me it was the list from MKM Prague recently). I think it's OK to board one out but probably not more. Could see a Hymn or both being shaved on the draw.

+1 Pyroblast
+1 Red Elemental Blast
+2 Flusterstorm
+2 Marsh Casualties
+1 Diabolic Edict

vs Grixis Delver

-2 Fow
-2 Jace (despite what I said earlier :rolleyes: )
-2 Hymn

+1 Pyroblast
+2 Marsh Casualties
+1 Diabolic Edict
+2 Flusterstorm

vs Elves

otp
-2 FoW
-2 Kolaghan's Command
-1 Gurmag Angler
-3 Baleful Strix

+2 Thoughtseize
+2 Hymn
+2 Marsh Casualties
+2 Flusterstorm

otd
Go back to 4 fow and take out 2 hymns

Whitefaces
08-17-2017, 07:03 AM
I played another four rounder at a LGS last night and moved a Flusterstorm to the main which was great. We have so much card selection that in matchups it's bad/dead in it can be shuffled away or pitched to a force without being punished most of the time, otherwise it's very high impact and helps our slightly unfavoured game one combo matchup. Matchups were ANT 2-1, Post MUD 2-1, BUG Delver 2-0 and Punishing Mav 2-0.

Really liking this list at the moment. Only question lingering over the md is whether a Trop should be a Bayou to help support the Hymns. Are any of you on that? Not having BB early has come up a couple of times.

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Gurmag Angler

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

4 Ponder
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Fatal Push
1 Lighning Bolt
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Flusterstorm

1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta


1 Flusterstorm
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Marsh Casualties
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Abrupt Decay

ashent
08-19-2017, 02:32 AM
I gave your build a shot with 2 Hymns, cutting Counterspells and shaving an Abrupt Decay for the Liliana MD (which I already liked) and found I didn't cast a single Hymn that I liked at all the entire night. I'm preparing for an event this weekend and I'm going to cut the Hymns from the MD and SB again as I believe my local meta is not correct for those. For example I can be entirely sure I won't run into Storm the entire day, because we have 0 Storm players, but I can guarantee I'll run into Lands and Loam repeatedly. I also missed my second copy of Decay to get me out of spots against D&T where I was running low on artifact destruction, even with 2 KCommand and an Ancient Grudge out of the side.

Liliana over performed, finally creating 27 2/2 zombies to swing over a Batterskull and a few other creatures against D&T when my deck had been decimated by an early Rest in Peace making half the cards we play look like garbage.

I actually think I might give TNN a shot again as my meta is very midrange and fair and I want to have more threats.

weaselface
08-19-2017, 03:51 AM
I played another four rounder at a LGS last night and moved a Flusterstorm to the main which was great. We have so much card selection that in matchups it's bad/dead in it can be shuffled away or pitched to a force without being punished most of the time, otherwise it's very high impact and helps our slightly unfavoured game one combo matchup. Matchups were ANT 2-1, Post MUD 2-1, BUG Delver 2-0 and Punishing Mav 2-0.

Really liking this list at the moment. Only question lingering over the md is whether a Trop should be a Bayou to help support the Hymns. Are any of you on that? Not having BB early has come up a couple of times.

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Gurmag Angler

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

4 Ponder
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Fatal Push
1 Lighning Bolt
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Flusterstorm

1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta


1 Flusterstorm
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Marsh Casualties
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Abrupt DecayI play a very similar list to yours and I've found that 1 Trop 1 Bayou is definitely the right green configuration. I think I fetch for Bayou more often than Trop.

As for Hymn vs CS having played both I prefer the Hymn build for a more tap out kind of play style. I might try MD Flusters or Pierce again but CS is just way too clunky.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

Mzfroste
08-19-2017, 06:32 PM
I think that if you have a spot to give to cheap disruption, the flusterstorm, that you would be better off playing Thoughtseize. I do think that in a vacum Thoughtseize is better than Flusterstorm, though obviously there are times Flusterstorm is better. But this is a proactive, tap out control deck. You don't want to be in a situation of having to choose between holding up permission vs tapping out for Leovold or Jace or what have you, but also and time you can look at your opponents hand should be taken. I went down to 1 Thoughtseize myself, upping the amount of spot removal I have, but I'm going to be testing to get that number back up to 2.

btm10
08-20-2017, 11:48 AM
To what Whitefaces is saying about the combo matchup more generally, I think that would actually be helped more by adding a more reliable beater than the 1-of Angler/Tombstalker. I don't even hate the idea of having a stock maindeck and just a 1-2 of Pyromancer/Tarmogoyf out of the board to give us better closing speed against combo. I've never felt short on interaction postboard, but I've definitely played draw-(cantrip)-go against combo because I was just hoping to find a threat to end a game once I'd stripped their hand. Deathrite and Snapcaster are really only good clocks in multiples, so having access to the extra threats seems at least worth discussing.

pointicus
08-20-2017, 09:38 PM
Instead of tarmogofy or YP, why not play Vendillion Clique as a post board threat vs. combo? Unlike the other two it actually does something to disrupt their combo besides beating face. Also running 1-2 MB leovold helps your combo match up a lot.

btm10
08-20-2017, 11:24 PM
Instead of tarmogofy or YP, why not play Vendillion Clique as a post board threat vs. combo? Unlike the other two it actually does something to disrupt their combo besides beating face. Also running 1-2 MB leovold helps your combo match up a lot.

I'm suggesting the addition of a Pyromancer/Tarmogoyf-esque creature because the the deck's primary problem against combo isn't a lack of interaction. Do you find yourself losing lots of games on turns 1-3 because you just don't have enough disruption? My experience is that the first attempt is pretty easy to stop, but that the stock list is leaning very heavily on either finding Leovold or assembling a critical mass of Snapcasters and Deathrites to end the game by turn 6 or 7 when the combo deck can try to win again. Pyromancer and Tarmogoyf are cheap enough that they're plausible turn 2 plays, and they end the game very quickly when the opponent can't remove them. Clique is fine, and Leovold is even quite good, but neither makes people dead in the ideal timeframe.

pointicus
08-21-2017, 06:11 PM
I haven't had a large problem in closing games against combo, but I don't think you want to use sideboard slots on YP and Goyf as beaters for the combo match up. I am not even sure that Goyf and YP are impressive beaters when you're playing against something like storm or SnT. But if you really considering SB slots for YP and Goyf, I would cut 1-2 baleful strix and play them in the main rather than the board.

tescrin
08-22-2017, 01:05 PM
Against Elves I think the safe line is always kill the first couple of elves you see. In this scenario I would probably Fatal Push his play and Ponder in my next turn (also dig one more card to find the second land).

These are my thoughts as well. I'm normally on Blade decks, which means I have a very slow game, but my win rate since coming back to legacy is a clean 11-0 against Elves against a variety of players in tournament/league matches. The first thing to do is realize they can win T2, so you always leave interaction up or cut their mana (by killing a guy.) They get some pretty awkward draws, so even an aggressive Kill + wasteland can set them back pretty hard when they had 3 elves, GSZ, Bayou, NO.

In your example, you'd have a dead Elf and they *couldn't* go off because Dude + Glimpse is all of their mana, so they'd have to wait. Now you ponder into land, leave up flusterstorm (you dug 5 cards, which is ~90% chance.) Brainstorm if they don't do anything T3 on their turn, untap T3 and start trying to lay a threat with FStorm up at all times until you draw a force or have them at an empty board (and even then... be careful if they're at 5 mana.)

Second thing to do is to leave your Forces for NO, natural Hoof, or a game ending GSZ. I normally let Glimpse resolve [unless I have a plethora of counters] and look for a way to grind them out (though as I'm usually a blade deck I have the option of stalling into SoFaI or Jitte.) While letting Glimpse resolve can be dangerous, they do fizzle *a lot* and if you have a sweeper in hand, you can guarantee you'll not only hit the big thing if they glimpse into it, but you'll also have the sweeper to reset things. Note: Peruse the Elves thread and you'll notice that they often talk about how using Glimpse to draw your counters can clear the way for the win. You want to read their hand/line and figure out where your counters are most effective. Often their Glimpse is to get you to leave their first NO alone since they gain CA anyway. It doesn't matter if they have 3 elves if they can't win. It does matter if they hit you for 48 damage while you aren't looking because you were worried about their CA. They're not the control deck here, so them getting CA is often negated by your own.

Third thing, make sure your sideboard hate also hits them. Run a cage in the side for the grave + elves decks. Run an E-Plague as one of your sweepers if you can. If you have SB V-Cliques, consider them. Just like with any combo deck, you want density of interaction. Bring in Pithing needle if you have it, shut off Wirewood or Quirion if you need to.

Always remember you can lose T2 and that they are a non-blue combo deck. Every chance you get to interact with them you should; because the longer the game goes, the more you'll hit your consistency and they're bound to run into a block of unusable cards at some point.

btm10
08-22-2017, 08:49 PM
I haven't had a large problem in closing games against combo, but I don't think you want to use sideboard slots on YP and Goyf as beaters for the combo match up. I am not even sure that Goyf and YP are impressive beaters when you're playing against something like storm or SnT. But if you really considering SB slots for YP and Goyf, I would cut 1-2 baleful strix and play them in the main rather than the board.

One of the main reasons to play Pile is that it's the best Strix deck, and Strix is one of the best cards available in creature matchups. If I were interested in cutting it for a better clock I'd be inclined to just play Delver. This approach might not jive with your intuition about how a deck should be built, but I think it's theoretically sound, it's consistent with my experience, and at least worth testing.

MorphBerlin
08-24-2017, 04:18 PM
If anybody is bored and wants to see me punt alot on MTGO I will upload my games here:

PLaylist (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uP13bqvwIs&list=PLgayM7Ga2UNh64BfXpNBMGxr_9xl01Bxz&index=1)

Maybe there are some interesting situations worth discussing.

MorphBerlin
08-28-2017, 05:14 AM
So at.least on modo I have seen an uptick of troublesome permanents, which are really hard to deal with once resolved. Examples

Blood Moon from Grixis control or UWr decks
Ground Seal from Storm
Sylvan Library from TurboDephts, Aluren, Mirror, BUGx in general
Liliana, the last hope from Tempo, grindy Midrange decks
Nissa/Choke from Elves

This might be a resüonse to 4cs strong presence online. What would you guys do to fight it? I think the best options in my mind are:

1. Discard, though Hymn is not reliable and TS is not to good in Grindy MUs, plus they can always topdeck, cantrip into it
2. Re-add 1-2 spell pierce after it has been cut from most lists
3. Add a second decay again

Any other suggestions/opinions on this?

kubalonek
08-28-2017, 05:37 AM
I would consider Engineered Explosives in sideboard. It is very versatile card for me.

mike1987
08-28-2017, 12:00 PM
Not sure if this has been asked before, for those who are playing 2 hymns in the main and 2 in the side, how would you approach the reanimator matchups with your discards. I know it depends on the game state, if drs is in play, if you had previously thoughtseized the opponent. Just would like to hear the general consensus.

MorphBerlin
08-28-2017, 04:20 PM
Not sure if this has been asked before, for those who are playing 2 hymns in the main and 2 in the side, how would you approach the reanimator matchups with your discards. I know it depends on the game state, if drs is in play, if you had previously thoughtseized the opponent. Just would like to hear the general consensus.

I would advise to only play Hymn after they allready put stuff into their GY so you can hit the reanimation spells or you have enough interaction (FoW, Drs, Surgical, Fluster) as backup to prevent a reanimation spell.

mike1987
08-28-2017, 09:05 PM
I would advise to only play Hymn after they allready put stuff into their GY so you can hit the reanimation spells or you have enough interaction (FoW, Drs, Surgical, Fluster) as backup to prevent a reanimation spell.

Thanks. But i guess the only problem is that usually they will reanimate the creature the turn they dump it into the GY. Either via EOT entomb or looting/brutality. That renders hymn not as effective.

MorphBerlin
08-29-2017, 04:43 AM
Thanks. But i guess the only problem is that usually they will reanimate the creature the turn they dump it into the GY. Either via EOT entomb or looting/brutality. That renders hymn not as effective.
Thats why you have 4 FoW, 3 GY Pieces, 2 Flusterstorms, 2 Thoughtseizes postboard

rei-vax
08-30-2017, 05:46 AM
Hello, I'm back to mtg after a break of one and a half year.

To begin "sorry for my poor english":rolleyes: I'm from belgium and i try to do my best!

I played bug delver in the past and by returning I discover this deck.
I find it really good and I want to play him.
Having looked at many list, read the primer and after test, I arrived at this list which is not really of me but more a net deck slightly modified.


1 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta

2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Snapcaster Mage

1 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Brainstorm
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
1 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will

Sideboard
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Darkblast
1 Marsh Casualties
2 Flusterstorm
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb

My question turns around the mana base.
Many lists play only 4 polluted delta to find the basic swamp.
In my list I have 2 hymn in the main and 2 more in side. So playing 1 bayou and cut 1 tropical is a good or bad idea? the scalding tarn can't find this bayou and the basic swamp
So I opted for this mana base :

dual (8) : 1 Tropical Island / 1 Badlands / 1 Bayou / 2 Volcanic Island / 3 Underground Sea. Fetch (10) : 1 Verdant Catacombs / 1 Bloodstained Mire / 4 Misty Rainforest / 4 Polluted Delta Basic (2) : 1 Island / 1 Swamp

It's maybe very bad... :-p
Your opinion and your advice interests me a lot.

Ps: even if I won every time, karakas is a little problem with this list. but i think running wasteland is to hard with this 4colors deck.

Thank you.

Secretly.A.Bee
08-30-2017, 01:51 PM
Pithing Needles in the board are a more versatile way to combat Karakas whilst still being useful in other matchups.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

potatodavid
08-30-2017, 03:47 PM
Has their been any thoughts of running Kess, Dissident Mage as a 1 of? She seems pretty powerful as a finisher or to help stabilize.

MorphBerlin
08-30-2017, 04:13 PM
Has their been any thoughts of running Kess, Dissident Mage as a 1 of? She seems pretty powerful as a finisher or to help stabilize.

I don't see what she does, that jace doesn't do better tbh

rei-vax
08-31-2017, 09:32 AM
Pithing Needles in the board are a more versatile way to combat Karakas whilst still being useful in other matchups.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Simple and efficient. Thx. :-)
And about mana base (fetchs and duals), does anyone have an idea, advice, or advice?

MorphBerlin
08-31-2017, 12:57 PM
Simple and efficient. Thx. :-)
And about mana base (fetchs and duals), does anyone have an idea, advice, or advice?

I recently changed to 1 bayou and 1 trop and like it better, if you play 2 hymn and 2 side.

I still have 4 Delta, 4 Tarn 2 Misty, the only problem is getting the swamp, I rarley ecounter a situation where I can't get the color I want with a dual.

Maybe swapping 1-2 msity vor verdant might be better because of this

mgrinshpon
08-31-2017, 03:18 PM
I've been trying to jam Dack Fayden and Punishing Fire in terrible decks for a while now, but I think this one is actually kind of good. Now that the meta is grinder than ever and RG are able to be (gently) shoe-horned into control colors, Punishing Fire is a good card-advantage engine that neatly addresses small creatures, some medium creatures (Leovold, for example, is not great), and a few others. This is where my deck currently sits:

// Deck: 60
// Lands: 21
2 Badlands
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
// Creatures: 12
3 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Notion Thief
3 Snapcaster Mage
// Instants: 17
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Murderous Cut
3 Punishing Fire
// Sorceries: 5
1 Collective Brutality
3 Ponder
1 Toxic Deluge
// Planeswalkers: 5
3 Dack Fayden
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// Sideboard: 15
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hydroblast
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Pulse of Murasa
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pernicious Deed

// Maybeboard:
1 Sultai Charm
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Tombstalker
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Leyline of the Void


The deck uses the extra mana (21 lands as opposed to 19) very effectively through the Punishing Fire engine but I've found that 22 is just a bit too many. Legacy-wise, the greatest thief in the multiverse is greatest here- finding the right answer at the right time through looting, acting as a great finisher with Leovold or Notion Thief in play, and able to steal Strixes, Moxen, Equipment, and sometimes everything else.

I'd like some thoughts on the following:

Ideally, I'd like some additional ways of handling Chalice, Blood Moon, and opposing Leyline of the Voids and am unsure as to where I should cut cards. Sultai Charm handles all of those save Blood Moon quite neatly, and Abrupt Decay handles all of them well, but the problem with both is that they're expensive, kind of clunky cards.
With the extra mana present in the list, plus the added Delirum benefits against Combo, Lands, and Loam (Dack Fayden +1 pitching Leyline), is cutting 2x Surgical and 1x Nihil Spellbomb for 3x Leyline of the Void worth it, or is the added flexibility of Surgicaling and Bombing my own Punishing Fires better against opposing Surgicals?
Should the Duress in the sideboard instead be another Collective Brutality or is that too slow for combo?

meite
08-31-2017, 04:17 PM
Went 3-0 in small 8man tournament with following list, first time ever I played this deck:


1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman

1 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Counterspell
2 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

1 Toxic Deluge
2 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn


Sideboard
2 Chill
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Swan Song
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Fire Covenant
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Umezawa's Jitte


R1 vs DnT
G1: really miserable first game with this deck. I keep a land light hand, he plays Thalia, Wastelands me and starts porting my blue source.
SB - OUT: 4 FoW, 2 Counterspell, IN: Jitte, Deed, Clique, Fire Covenant, 2 Edict
G2: I keep land heavy hand and then the Kommand + Strix value train starts working and I end up having TNN equipped with Jitte versus his empty board.
G3: Value game works again, this time I mainly beat with Strix+Jitte

R2 vs Merfolk
G1: Islandwalking merfolks makes my Strixes look stoopid...
SB - OUT: 4 FoW, 2 Counterspell, 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Strix, IN: Jitte, Deed, Clique, Fire Covenant, 3 Edict, 2 REB
G2: He keeps a slow hand and I draw enough removal to get rid of his fishes before they group up. I wipe Chalice and 2 merfolks with Deed at some point.
G3: Extremely tight game, last turns included he having 2 TNN on table and me having one TNN and flashing back 2x Snapcaster just to get enough aggro. I find Diabolic Edict with Ponder, make him sac one TNN and manage to win the game. I end up being at 2 life before I get lethals in.

R3 vs Burn
G1: I have a very good hand and first rounds starts with removal spells, DRS and several counters. My clock is still too slow and he just kills me.
SB - OUT: 2 Thoughtseize, Deluge, IN: 2 Chill, Jitte
G2: Long game, he floods somewhat. I stabilize at some point after killing lots of his creatures. Top decked Chill seals the game.
G3: He gets stuck on 2 lands. I manage to stabilize with Leovold which keeps his Guide from attacking and he does not really want to cast burn spells at me. I find Chill with Ponder and then start draining his life totals with 2 x DRS. Round time runs out and I am ONE damage short with the DRS damage. I need to draw something relevant from the top during my last extra turn. I fetch a land, opponent cuts my deck and I draw.... a Lightning Bolt! GGs!

2 x Chill is definately a meta call for me, because I face a lot of Burn, Sneak&Show and also occasional Storm and Dragon Stompy.

TNN felt very good every time I drew it, I am thinking to replace maybe one Strix with another TNN.

I think it is strange that people seems to be playing Tasigur in this deck, or in Legacy at all, since DnT is so popular deck and it runs Karakas.

Agrippa91
09-05-2017, 01:41 PM
Hi guys!
Does anybody want to play against a more Canadian Grixis Delver deck? It's really hard to find enough practice against Czech Pile online unless you play tons and tons of leagues. That sucks since I'm still not entirely sure how to sideboard against it.

Like should I keep in some number of Forces? I do and did against Miracles. One of the reasons is that my many soft counters can be dead sometimes, so I can "upgrade" them to a FoW.

On the other hand Thoughtseize could be decent at getting answers out of Czech Pile's hand since TNN and Angler require very specific ones. Also Snapcaster when I have an active DRS or K-Command when there's no targets on the BF or Czech doesn't have enough mana open.

I toyed with the idea of Surgical. I've never been a fan of it against Miracles though some people swore it is good, even Bob Huang aka Griselpuff. It seems to do the job "countering" a snapcasted spell or getting all the strixes Czech tries to recur with K-Command, but I don't know whether it's really worth it.
Marsh Casualties seems better than Push or Bolt, but I might just bite my ass those times when I face Leovold.

I know Winter Orb is a good sb card, but I'm not to big a fan of this card since it doesn't do much in other matchups. So far I have a decent record against czech and would rather dedicate my flexible sb-slots to fight stompy and bg depths which are the really bad matchups in my experience.

You can add me on MtGO, name is Agrippa91 there as well. When I'm online it's around the time of this post going forward.

FZA
09-10-2017, 02:51 PM
Hi guys!
Does anybody want to play against a more Canadian Grixis Delver deck? It's really hard to find enough practice against Czech Pile online unless you play tons and tons of leagues. That sucks since I'm still not entirely sure how to sideboard against it.

Like should I keep in some number of Forces? I do and did against Miracles. One of the reasons is that my many soft counters can be dead sometimes, so I can "upgrade" them to a FoW.

On the other hand Thoughtseize could be decent at getting answers out of Czech Pile's hand since TNN and Angler require very specific ones. Also Snapcaster when I have an active DRS or K-Command when there's no targets on the BF or Czech doesn't have enough mana open.

I toyed with the idea of Surgical. I've never been a fan of it against Miracles though some people swore it is good, even Bob Huang aka Griselpuff. It seems to do the job "countering" a snapcasted spell or getting all the strixes Czech tries to recur with K-Command, but I don't know whether it's really worth it.
Marsh Casualties seems better than Push or Bolt, but I might just bite my ass those times when I face Leovold.

I know Winter Orb is a good sb card, but I'm not to big a fan of this card since it doesn't do much in other matchups. So far I have a decent record against czech and would rather dedicate my flexible sb-slots to fight stompy and bg depths which are the really bad matchups in my experience.

You can add me on MtGO, name is Agrippa91 there as well. When I'm online it's around the time of this post going forward.

I'd be happy to help you test against Pile. Unfortunately I'm usually only available weeknights after around 9 PM Pacific Time, which I know is not really convenient for people who live on the east coast or Europe...but if that works for you, just let me know.

apistat_commander
09-14-2017, 12:06 PM
Does anyone run Czech Pile in a combo heavy meta? Most of the Czech Pile lists I see seem to be more geared towards grinding out fair decks, with limited G1 interaction against Combo. My meta is super heavy on BR Reanimator, Elves, Burn (UR and R), Storm, Hex Depths, and Dredge. DRS helps with a number of those, but I feel like I'm a little lacking in disruption for the others. Any suggestions on how to build out my flex slots to address that? Below is a list that I have drafted up but have yet to play.

Creatures (14):
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Baleful Strix
2 Gurmag Angler
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

Instants (17)
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Kolaghan’s Command
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
1 Counterspell

Sorceries (7)
4 Ponder
3 Hymn to Tourach

Planeswalkers (2):
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (20):
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard:
3 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Pyroblast
2 Marsh Casualties
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Sylvan Library
1 Hydroblast

bigbobbobber
09-14-2017, 03:00 PM
I find Turbo Depths manageable after SB with multiple Edicts, BR Reanimator is always a SB an opening hand check-deck, and Storm and SnS are favorable both pre- and post SBing. Dredge, Burn, and UR Delver are miserable, and I don't know how to fix it. Elves I find 50/50, but Marsh Casualties helps a lot. I'm considering Grafdigger's Cage to combat Elves, BR Reanimator, and Dredge, despite how bad it is with Snapcaster. Might just have to bite the bullet on this one, but I think it would be worth it.

I am interested in hearing how others manage the Burn and UR Delver matchup. The only thing I can thing of is either loading up on blue blast effects or Chill. Anyone have thoughts on this?

JackaBo
09-14-2017, 04:27 PM
I find Turbo Depths manageable after SB with multiple Edicts, BR Reanimator is always a SB an opening hand check-deck, and Storm and SnS are favorable both pre- and post SBing. Dredge, Burn, and UR Delver are miserable, and I don't know how to fix it. Elves I find 50/50, but Marsh Casualties helps a lot. I'm considering Grafdigger's Cage to combat Elves, BR Reanimator, and Dredge, despite how bad it is with Snapcaster. Might just have to bite the bullet on this one, but I think it would be worth it.

I am interested in hearing how others manage the Burn and UR Delver matchup. The only thing I can thing of is either loading up on blue blast effects or Chill. Anyone have thoughts on this?

Burn and UR: Maybe a jitte? Good against elves and a bunch of other decks. Strix carries it well. Playing a deck with a slow clock i feel chill isnt enough to beat burn, nor is a miser hydroblast, eventhough it help for sure. Perhabs pulse of murasa? It negates two bolts and brings back a strix.

Grafdiggers cage. I think it's fine. If they blow it up your SCM are live. If they dont you're winning.

orientalmarket
09-15-2017, 02:18 PM
Anyone have a rundown on what I should do in the lands matchup? It honestly feels so miserable that I just check out of the game when I know they're on it.

Rekk
09-15-2017, 02:52 PM
Anyone have a rundown on what I should do in the lands matchup? It honestly feels so miserable that I just check out of the game when I know they're on it.

blood moon and basics is what i've seen from some lists. Maybe leyline of the void can help but really blood moon seems to be the most effective solution

hoernchen
09-16-2017, 04:49 PM
Anyone have a rundown on what I should do in the lands matchup? It honestly feels so miserable that I just check out of the game when I know they're on it.

Usually Jace does a very good job in killing Lands.

Fgi_88
09-17-2017, 06:24 PM
Hi Guys! Today i've played for the first time 4c Leovold in a real tournament.
My list is Megucci's one on CFB live deck Tech.

R1 Turbo Depths 2-0:
g1 won thank to Deathrite eating multiple copies of Hexmage. I was able to survive to Merit Lage.
g2 won topdecking a JTMS that bounced a Merit Lage, i was dead on board but once again shaman saved me gaining 2 important life points.

R2 BR Reanimator 2-0:
g1 t1 Shaman won the game
g2 t1 Grafdigger Cage...
This was my opponent's first legacy tournament so he kept ugly hands

r3 ANT 2-1:
g1 he won thanks to probe+cabal therapy
g2 I was at 16 life when my oppo went for the combo: 8 triggers of Tendrills but i had leovold in play who drew me 8 cards and 2 FOW for the win
g3 t1 Seize, t2 Tourach won the game

r4 & r5 ID

Top8 Infect 2-0:
g1 Multiples Push and KCommand for the win
g2 t2 Liliana the last hope and easy win

Top4 ANT (same guy of the R3) 2-0:
g1 he wasted the victory: i had nothing relevant in hand but an Online Shaman, he goes for the combo but LED put Tendrills in the Graveyard. His mistake was to cast a burning wish for PIF so i was able to eat Tendrills and win the game. Was better for him to take Empty the warrens
g2 t1 Seize, T2 Seize + Grafdigger's Cage for the win

FINAL ROUND UR Omnitell 2-1:
g1 Show t2 + FOW backup
g2 He drew bad all the game and i won the game dealing 20 damage with Shaman...
g3 t1 Seize, t2 Tourach, t3 LOTV won the game

HammerAndSickled
09-17-2017, 11:14 PM
Hey everyone, I just got back from EE7 with my trial runs with Kess Pile, the 4C Czech deck featuring Kess, Dissident Mage. I got a feature match on coverage and a short interview so a lot of people were asking me about the list and how it did, so I wrote a short TR for Reddit which I'm reposting here in case it's relevant to you guys!

My feature match and interview can be found here: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/175230877


Here was my list:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Kess, Dissident Mage
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
3 Fatal Push
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Terminate
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp


Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Hydroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance




The deck felt PHENOMENAL all day despite not doing super well in the main event (4-4 overall). Kess and sideboard Chandras were insane in the fair matchups, I got multiple games where Kess ran over someone and got multiple Chandra emblem wins. The deck felt like it wasn't even close to losing in any creature matchup, but I struggled with combo. I knew cutting the maindeck discard would make my combo matchup worse, but I hated playing a grindy card advantage deck with discard spells because they're blank topdecks, so I just played 2 Counterspell and a diverse removal suite. I also expected fields of heavy Czech Pile and Stoneblade going in so I wanted to be metagame do slightly towards fair, which I think it did. My quick-and-dirty Tournament Report is as follows:


R1 I played against White Eldrazi (Taxes), which going in I thought would be a nightmare matchup. Everything lined up for me in G1 though and I answered Chalices cleanly while removing all his threats and ended the game with Kess playing removal and cantrips every turn. G2 I think I lost to t1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar. G3 I was locked under 2x Chalice at 1 but I'm able to trade Strixes for monster beaters and KCommand one Chalice, but I'm doing nothing. I spin wheels until I find a Jace. Jace gets a few brainstorms off before he gets revoked, but I find Kess, flashback KCommand to shatter a Chalice and shock the revoker and I win on the spot basically.


R2 was against the Czech pile mirror, Kess and Chandra from the board were insane. I got Hymned multiple times and didn't care due to the Planeswalker advantage I was getting and I managed the DRS footsies and KCommand battles better than he did. Counterspell was great at stopping a Jace and KCommand that discard wouldn't have. This match showed me that the deck was built excellently for what I wanted it to do: wreck the mirror and other fair decks.


R3 was on camera, as I linked above. The commentators implied it was a close match because I got to 1 life in game 1, but I never felt like it was even close. Kess is too insanely good! G2 I answer four consecutive Leovolds at card disadvantage and still easily take control. It ends with Chandra Jace and Kess in play, awesome feeling!


Got a winners interview after that match, they asked about my card choices and I had a good time. I felt real good about my deck and it's chances to win the whole thing. The deck was built for blue mirrors and it's excellent at that.


R4 we were the backup feature match as King of the Hill, I played against what I thought was the 4c mirror. Saw DRS/KCommand/Jace/Strix/Snapcaster in game 1. He lands an early Jace and I'm just never able to kill it. I keep parity with him on card advantage for WAY longer than was reasonable with Leovold/KCommand/Snapcaster but Jace has drawn literally like 10 cards at this point and I scoop mostly for clock concerns. Game 1 is about 30 mins but I feel confident I can take games 2 and 3 with my superior deck build and sideboard bombs like REB and Chandra. They move us back to feature for game 2, which you can find at the end of the video I linked. Long story short, I was wrong: it was pure Grixis control, not the 4c mirror, and he had access to Blood Moon. I didn't fetch Basics cause I thought it was the mirror and had NO idea it was even coming. Unfortunately being down a game sucks cause a sideboard gimmick like that just wins on the spot. I had Chandra under the moon but I died to a Gurmag.


The wheels fell off the bus for round 5, a local buddy of mine and I get paired up. It's Jim Baxter, who made t8. I keep a fair hand with removal and cantrips and die turn 2 to TES. Whoops. I board in all the disruption for game 2 and start on Deathrite with a force and surgical in hand, he Duresses me turn 2 and then makes 16 Goblins and I can't find Deluge in time.


Round 6 is against the same Depths deck that Eli won with, it was one of his buddies from the NY crowd. G1 goes predictably as I get 20/20d. I get to chump with a Strix for multiple consecutive turns and I have a crazy idea that I might be able to gain enough life with Deathrite to Deluge for 20 but it doesn't pan outG2 I have Edict for the first Lage and Surgical the Depths and counter a Living wish and win with Kess and Leovold. G3 I Thoughtseize him, he has Depths and forest in play and I take a Wish leaving him with two Hexmages, he topdecks Urborg and I can't find Edict or Jace in any of my draws.


Round 7 I play against Ben in another 4c mirror. Again predictably Kess and Chandra are mirror breakers and I win pretty easily 2-0. Not much to say that hasn't already been said. Every fair match except for the one against Moon felt like an absolute cakewalk, the deck is insanely value.


R8 I end up losing to food chain. We're playing for min cash and my opponent is a really funny dude so I didn't take the game super seriously. Game 1 I get caught with my pants down by a Food Chain combo, I figured my opponent was on BUG control from his multiple Deathrite, Leovold, Decay start but whatever. I make a critical error and assume my opponent will board out the actual combo. Griffins and Ballista are still good against me but I figured he'd morph into a BUg midrange deck to grind better, he flashed me a Garruk relentless from the board so I board out Force and in things like REB and Chandra. It works out for game 2, I win a drawn out game by killing everything he had and holding off a Griffin with Kess, then Chandra ultimate. Game 3 though I get punished for the boarding decision because he plays a Garruk and fights a strix to flip it, I tap out to play Leovold or some other threat to pressure it, then on his turn he plays Food Chain into infinite Griffins and then uses Garruk's Tutor ability for Ballista. Judgment error on my part; that's a reasonable loss. At 4-4 I drop to get food cause Philadelphia.


Today I played two side events with the deck and went 2-2 and 3-1. I beat Eli's Turbo Depths, Death and Taxes, Pox, 4c Mirror and got a scoop from Enchantress and lost to Sneak Show, Aggro Loam, and Dredge.


Overall the deck was great, a ton of fun and value. The combo matchups need help but idk what more you can do, I was bringing in 10 sideboard cards in some matchups and still losing horribly. I think it's the classic problem of control v combo, if you have disruption but no clock it doesn't matter, and Deathrite/Strix/Snapcaster don't represent a real clock.


Thanks for the interest and reply if you have any comments!

Requiem2
09-18-2017, 01:25 AM
Thanks for posting your tourney report from EE7, I looked online this morning looking to find your decklist and was disappointed that results weren't posted anywhere. It's nice to see some data around Kess, I may include 1 in my weeklies. I think your fair blue deck match up is through the roof, but with only 4FOW and 2CS your combo MU g1 is too weak. I would consider cutting a snap and strix to add a bit more disruption.

There are many lists running 2 Wastelands, can anyone talk about how this list is working for them? I feel like some games I am struggling to hit lands 4or5. Some long games I'm getting way to many lands. After watching EE7 I think I will be moving to a second basic island as 3 basics will work fine for me.

apistat_commander
09-18-2017, 10:30 AM
Quick report from my a weekly, my first time playing the deck in paper. I played the list in my last post.

Round 1 - UB Reanimator - Game 1, I land a DRS on turn one which he is never able to answer. I can't remember, but I think I closed it out with a Jace and Snapcaster beats. Game 2 he Show and Tells a Griselbrand in which I can't stop. Game 3 I'm in the driver's seat the whole time with 2 DRS out. I end the game with a hand of Fluster, Fluster, Force, and Surgical. Nothing he can do about it.

Round 2 - Grixis Delver - Game 1 takes absolutely forever, I sit around with a Leovold, Strix, and a Jace while he holds the ground with an Angler. Eventually I get there after burning most of the clock. Game 2 he gets me with quick Young Pyromancer beats. Game 3 we go to time and neither of us are able to finish it. He brings in Bitterblossom (!?) out of the board which I have no answers for but he still can't put enough damage together to stop me.

Round 3 - Grixis Control - Game 1 True Name beats take him down in short order. I wasn't sure if he'd be bringing in Blood Moon as I played next to him in previous rounds and he was new to the deck. In Game 2 he drops a Blood Moon on turn 3 (sad face) after only fetching duals (?). He eventually gets me with Pyromancer beats. Game 3 is a quick affair with a Gurmag Angler making short work of his life total. Honestly this player wasn't very good, he forced my Strix in G3 for example, but I imagine this deck can have some powerful starts against us.

Round 4 - BUG Control - Hymn to Tourach and DRS are a potent combination. I land a Jace and start Brainstorming into action, and he scoops when he has no creatures and no cards in hand and I'm fate-sealing him with Jace. Game 2 I stop his relevant action and eventually get a Gurmag angler down. He scoops when he double blocks my Angler with 4/5 Goyfs and I Snapcaster a Fatal Push for the blow out. He was so tilted, I felt kind of bad about it.

Overall the deck felt incredibly solid. You get to play so many amazing value cards, it reminds me of Esper Stoneblade back before DRS. The combination of Strix, Snapcaster, Kommand, Jace, and Leo is so incredibly good.

Notes on card choices:

- After the tournament I swapped a MD Bolt for a MD Diabolic Edict. It felt like I needed a maindeck answer for Gurmag or other fatties. I kind of want to run a Toxic Deluge somewhere, but I'm not sure what I would cut. I'd like to have a sweeper outside of 2 Marsh Casualties from the board, but adding another 3-mana spell doesn't feel great.

- Hymn to Tourach feels very swingy to me, it is either the best card I'm playing or it feels like dead weight. However it also feels like a necessary evil. 4 Force + 2 Counterspell is not enough disruption for the amount of combo running around my meta.

- I really liked the 1/1 split of Angler and True Name. Each of them took down games for me, much more quickly than I could have managed otherwise.

mort-
09-19-2017, 01:55 PM
I've been playing this deck for a while now (and didn't actually post something), so here's a quick recap of my last few weeks. The list didn't change for the whole time as I actually quite liked the setup. Thoughts on the list below all the other stuff.

„Rick Sanczech”

1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Volcanic Island
[20 Lands]
3 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Vendilion Clique
[14 Creatures]
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
[02 Planeswalker]
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
2 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
2 Kolaghan’s Command
2 Lightning Bolt
[24 Instants]
1 Night’s Whisper
4 Ponder
1 Reanimate
[06 Sorceries]
[60 cards maindeck]

Sideboard:

1 Collective Brutality
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Flusterstorm
2 Forked Bolt
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Marsh Casualities
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
[15 cards sideboard]
[75 cards total]


It all starts with a few leagues, going 5-0, 5-0 and 4-1 respectivly, then going to play some GP Metz sideevents, the structure was 4 matches and prices depending on matchpoints.

R1: Remi with Eldrazi
I'm sure you know that this is not the best matchup, I quickly lose the first game, win the second on the back of Jitte. He has a draw with only Mimics game three which Leovold and Tasigur stop dead in their tracks. Time is called and he rather kills Jace with his Ratchet Bomb instead of Leovold, so I'm able to attack for exactsies on turn 5.

R2: Arnaud with Death and Taxes
I lose to the DnT plan game one, but have too much removal for him to handle game two and three. Marsh Casualities MVP.

R3: Thomas with Czech Pile
Tasigur manages to outgrind Jace and Leovold, so when I finally can get rid of Leovold, I have a thousand Brainstorms in my hand. He wins game two, we're again in turns when he decides on one life that bouncing Strix with Jace isn't such a good idea. He doesn't find removal, so I win.

R4: Matthias with Czech Pile
We I.D. to both get close to two displays.

Second trial, same structure.

R1: Matthias with Czech Pile
My draws are just far better than his, I outgrind him easily.

R2: Rico with Grixis Delver
My notes don't have my life below ten for any of the two games.

R3: Thomas with Grixis Delver
He keeps terrible slow hands and is dispatched easily.

R4: I.D. for displays again

So, after losing one match in the last 20, I feel pretty good going into MKM series Hamburg. There'd be three tournaments: two trials and the Legacy main event. After 8 hours driving to Hamburg, the Legacy Grand Trial 1 starts with about 1 1/2 hours delay, making the day even longer than it already was at this point.

R1: Christoph with Death and Taxes
He does the usual Death and Taxes stuff but Kolaghan's Command is just way too strong for DnT to handle. It allows me to stabilize both games and take the win from there.

R2: Conrado with Esper Delver
I take a mulligan, he plays a Delver, I use my turn to cantrip, find lands but forget to play them. I just never recover from not making my landdrop. Game two he's far ahead with Lingering Souls and a Gurmag Angler, I do have the chance to bounce his Gurmag and Marsh Casuality his four spirit tokens if I manage to survive this round. He attacks and has Zealous Persecution with me being at six. I have Fatal Push and a Deathrithe Activation, but can only do one of those because I left open Badlands / Volcanic Island for Redblast Protection. Guess you can't have all.

R3: Holger with BRUG Delver
First match is quite long, he manages to Stifle / Wasteland a lot of my lands but doesn't mount any pressure after I kill his first two creatures. I'm finally able to stabilize and win from there. The second game he's stuck on one colored mana for far too long, so when he finally recovers from his screw, I'm too far ahead already.

R4: Tilmann with Grixis Control
Those were some aaaawfully long games. We trade removal and counterspells back and forth, but I manage to stick a Jace first, which he can't recover from. Second game I land a turn two Sylvan Library, he fetches for two basics, but luckily does not play Blood Moon on his turn three. Library manages to make some good CA. He does his best to keep up with some pretty brutal two for ones, but in the end it's too much for him to handle.

R5: Christian with Elves
In the first game I just kill everything he plays and counter a Glimpse. Second game a Nissa is way too much for me to handle and in the third game I can again remove everything he plays. At least one of those games he floods away, which helped me tremendously, as I see Elves as a pretty bad MU for the pile.

R6: Sebastien with RG Cloudpost
Haha. Yeah. I manage to drop him to one game one before Ugin exiles my board. I don't manage to draw a Bolt or Snapcaster in the two turns he needs to play something really big. Second game is no game, he just drops three Cloudposts. Nice guy, terrible matchup.

R7: Bastian with Sneak and Show
Last matchup for the day, he kills me turn five with Sneak Attack, topdeck Lotus Petal (well, not that it mattered :D), Griselbrand + Emrakul. Games two and three he.. I actually don't know what happened. I countered his first Show and Tell as aswell as his first Sneak Attack, but only had a Deathrite Shaman. He hardcast SSG, then started to force my second DRS. So basicly, my DRS was on the field two turns earlier and I could win the race. He got stuck on fat guys and lands in the third game two, and the lonely SSG on his field couldn't do anything.

5-2 gets me tenth place, a bye for the main event as well as a GP promo SFM which is.. fine.. I guess? Eat something, get to the hotel, have no sleep at all thanks to roommates snorring terribly. So I have like 3 hours of sleep for the next event.

R1: Kevin with Miracles
I just outgrind him hard with Leovold and Jace. Game two he does the same with me, Mentor finishes the deal quickly. Game three he has a bit of early game interaction and a timely Terminus, but starts to flood away hard. I smell blood in the water and use Jace to win.

R2: Christian with Esper Delver Brew
I don't recall the games much. I think he wasted me 11 times in our three games, but had no pressure, so I could draw out of the screw two games out of three. One I got beat down pretty hard though.

R3: Sebastien with RG Cloudpost
This guy again. We joke that he could be nice and brick, which he actually does. He never draws a Cloudpost naturally and I have the counterspells for his Crop Rotations. We agree to not play again this weekend.

R4: Tilmann with Grixis Control
So many people from last tournament. I manage to stick a Jace again, but his Gurmag Angler, in combination with a Lightning Bolt is too much for me too overcome, even with the best Planeswalker of them all. Second game he lands a Blood Moon that doesn't outright kill me, as I had Sylvan Library and a basic Swamp, but still allows him to pressure me too hard for a comeback. Tilmann wins the whole thing, so congrats to him!

R5: Patrick with Esper Deathblade
Two TNN prove to be too much for me game one, he waited nice and paitently for me to leave him a window, then I had no chance. I'm able to handle his TNN game two and KCommand SFM / Batterskull for best value, then win from there. Third game has me kill his SFM, then reanimate it to get my own Jitte. I topdeck like a champ and manage to steal this game.

R6: Quirin with Affinity
I sit down and tell him I already got a bye and am only playing for prices. He tells me "well, we both will get prices". Fine then. He kills me game one with double plating, the second game is a removal slugfest in which Leovold takes over the game with a Jitte after I killed about 10 creatures already. Third game he has only 0/x guys, I kill everything that has more than zero power and he can't muster any offense.

So, this leaves me with 5-1, a third place, another bye (well, it doesn't stack sadly) and a Revised Plateau. We'll have a feast at a Greek place (and lots of Ouzo), then drink a few beers in our hotel lobby. I actually get some much needed sleep as the hotel arranged a singles room for me. Thaaaaanks and on to the main event!

R1: Bye
R2: Markus with BUG Control
He plays a TNN game one that I'm not able to race, as he kills anything I play (which isn't much as I kept a very greedy hand that I get punsihed for). Game two is a grindfest that I manage to win on the back of a Sylvan Library. Game three is a back and forth. I manage to kill three Hierarchs and a TNN with Marsh casualities, he returns the favor by killing two DRS and a Strix with his own. His TNN gets handled with Snapcaster -> Casualities. I topdeck a Leovold that gives me the crucial draw to be one step ahead on him and win the game.

R3: Jens with Elves
He just has some random dudes game one and one card left, I use Command to kill his insect and let him discard a card, he returns an elf to discard it, than plays a Nissa that is too much for me to handle. Game two my removal makes a short work of his little green man, game three I have the option of playing DRS, then turn two go Bolt, Decay on whatever he plays, or just Bolt his Arbor. I play DRS, he kills me turn two.

R4: Joan with Aggro Loam
He wastelands me two times, I force a Liliana and a Chalice, decay his Knight and then reanimate it to play my Jace a turn later (was stuck on lands). The then 5/5 Knight proves to much for him to handle. Game two he starts with a T2 Confidant, which I kill and then reanimate. He swords it and replays another one a turn later, which I kill again, then go Snapcaster, Reanimate. He can't handle it this time and I draw too many cards for him to come back into the game.

R5: Julius with RUG Delver
Game one has me stabilizing at seven life, after I handle all of his Tarmogoyfs and finally get a Baleful Strix to stick around and threaten to block his Mongoose. Game two is a typical RUG Delver game, he Wastelands and pressures me pretty hard, I have to succumb to a 5/6 Tarmogoyf that I can't handle. Game three sees us going to time with the boardstate as follows in the second extra turn: He has a flipped Delver and a Goyf, as well as a Spell Pierce in hand, while being tapped out and being on twelve. I have a Tarmogoyf that I reanimated, a Snapcaster in my hand and am at six life. Now, I could go for the draw here and just go Snapcaster -> Decay. Instead I play for the win, go Snapcaster, Reanimate target Snapcaster, target Decay, destroy his Goyf, attack for five. If he now draws a Bolt I'm dead, if he doesn't I have the option to draw removal and kill him. He doesn't draw the Bolt, I topdeck Decay and ship home a close game.

R6: Christian with Elves
This guy again. He floods out game one so I manage to win somehow. Game two starts exactly as game three started in round two. He can't kill me though, but I still lose as his board is full of little green men. Game three sees him with all the clunky cards in his hand, playing one elf per turn that I can kill easy with my mono removal hand.

R7: Jamin with Storm
He kills me turn two, I don't have anything to stop him and concede in response to his post-Nauseam Probe (I started with Bayou -> DRS). Game two is a bit closer as he just cantrips a thousand turns. I do have two DRS, but they get shut down by Ground Seal. He manages to find discard for my FoW on his last possible turn.

R8: Jan with Maverick
I manage to kill his early drops, he starts flooding out soon after which leaves me a lot of time to get out of the Wasteland pressure he put up earlier. Game two I get his PFire exiled with Surgical, then two for one him a few times with Kolaghans Command and Forked Bolt. We then both start flooding out, but I'll manage to turn my excess lands into business with chain Brainstorms once I find the first.

R9: Kalle with Food Chain
We're playing for Top16 here and he gets manascrewed for the first game. I manage to use that to kill him fast (well, for the pile anyway). Second game he plays a patient game with a Relic of Progenitus that manages to control my DRS and his Griffins whenever they die. Third game I keep a hand of Bolt, Badlands, Inquisition, Surgical, 2x Brainstorm, KCommand. I figured I had enough outs and also the cards to slow him down enough. I manage to nab his Food Chain first turn, but draw my blue land way too late while he has a playset of Baleful Strix that get him everything he needs. I lose that game in quick fashion and congratulate him on his good run / Top16.

So, 6-3 wasn't the result I wanted (obviously), it places me at 36th. The list felt incredibly good, I lucked out much but also think that the matches I lost were either bad MUs (Elves, FC, Storm, Cloudpost) or matches that could go either way (like Delver / Grixis Control). So while the tournament didn't end like I wanted, I'm pretty happy with the results I put up. A friend of mine with the exact same list went 7-2, which is also very good.
I'm looking to maybe cut Nights Whisper for a Library in the maindeck, opening up a sideboard slot. I'll be tinkering a bit with the sideboard and maybe with the mainboard. For the rather secure changes, I'm thinking of testing white Leylines, the other changes I want to test are SFM main (still have to figure out how to do this) as well as Blood Moons in the sideboard. Fun times are incoming :)

Pdingo
09-19-2017, 05:21 PM
Hei Guys

I did top 4 @mkm Hamburg with my BUG Pile/Control List (Props to Marius Hausmann and Johannes Gutbrod). Also i did 5th @ Grand Trial 82 people Tournament, 5:1:1(6:1 possible 2th if i would not drawing for the safe bye, because i won the last Match)

// 60 Hauptdeck
// 2 Artifact
2 Umezawa's Jitte

// 15 Creature
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
4 Baleful Strix

// 13 Instant
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push

// 21 Land
3 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Swamp
1 Island
3 Verdant Catacombs

// 2 Planeswalker
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// 7 Sorcery
2 Thoughtseize
3 Ponder
2 Hymn to Tourach


// 15 Sideboard
// 10 Instant
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Hydroblast
SB: 3 Flusterstorm

// 1 Planeswalker
SB: 1 Liliana, the Last Hope

// 4 Sorcery
SB: 2 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 2 Marsh Casualties


I post this here because it's still very similar to some Czech Pile List. Not like Thomas List. Red is very strong and i love the Command and REB's. But we tried to have a Bug Controll list with less Greed and more Proactivity.I have to say a list without a lot pressure do just durdle around sometimes. We tried to play more Cards who attack the opponent in diffrent angle. Like for example Jitte and True-Name. The List feel so powerful and sweet to play. Otherwise Johannes played a similar list to mine without True-Name and jitte but with more leovold and 1 more Cantrip and a Gurmag. He won the Big Trial on Friday with it. Just feel free to ask and Post:) Maybe some Player are interested in this Deck or List so i post it here in the DtB section:) I won now 1 1K Tournament, 5th (possible 2th after johannes) and top 4 with it in a a 300 Men Tournament. It's really a great Deck and i hope some people will play it too:)

Greets

Pascal

mike1987
09-20-2017, 09:13 AM
Hei Guys

I did top 4 @mkm Hamburg with my BUG Pile/Control List (Props to Marius Hausmann and Johannes Gutbrod). Also i did 5th @ Grand Trial 82 people Tournament, 5:1:1(6:1 possible 2th if i would not drawing for the safe bye, because i won the last Match)

// 60 Hauptdeck
// 2 Artifact
2 Umezawa's Jitte

// 15 Creature
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
4 Baleful Strix

// 13 Instant
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push

// 21 Land
3 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Swamp
1 Island
3 Verdant Catacombs

// 2 Planeswalker
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// 7 Sorcery
2 Thoughtseize
3 Ponder
2 Hymn to Tourach


// 15 Sideboard
// 10 Instant
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Hydroblast
SB: 3 Flusterstorm

// 1 Planeswalker
SB: 1 Liliana, the Last Hope

// 4 Sorcery
SB: 2 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 2 Marsh Casualties


I post this here because it's still very similar to some Czech Pile List. Not like Thomas List. Red is very strong and i love the Command and REB's. But we tried to have a Bug Controll list with less Greed and more Proactivity.I have to say a list without a lot pressure do just durdle around sometimes. We tried to play more Cards who attack the opponent in diffrent angle. Like for example Jitte and True-Name. The List feel so powerful and sweet to play. Otherwise Johannes played a similar list to mine without True-Name and jitte but with more leovold and 1 more Cantrip and a Gurmag. He won the Big Trial on Friday with it. Just feel free to ask and Post:) Maybe some Player are interested in this Deck or List so i post it here in the DtB section:) I won now 1 1K Tournament, 5th (possible 2th after johannes) and top 4 with it in a a 300 Men Tournament. It's really a great Deck and i hope some people will play it too:)

Greets

Pascal

Congrats for your awesome win Pascal! Been seeing your BUG list popping up here and there over mtgtop8 and tc council.

I am giving ur deck a spin tomorrow at my local game store. Wondering if you can give some sideboard advice against some of the more common matchups (in my meta) like:

Czech Pile
Elves
Aluren
Lands
Grixis Delver
Dark Depths (hexmage and stage)

Appreciate it!

Pdingo
09-20-2017, 11:23 AM
Congrats for your awesome win Pascal! Been seeing your BUG list popping up here and there over mtgtop8 and tc council.

I am giving ur deck a spin tomorrow at my local game store. Wondering if you can give some sideboard advice against some of the more common matchups (in my meta) like:

Czech Pile
Elves
Aluren
Lands
Grixis Delver
Dark Depths (hexmage and stage)

Appreciate it!


Thanks men!

Czech Pile
-4 Fow
-3 Push
-1 or 2 Jitte

+3 Fluster
+2 Hymn
+1 Hydroblast
+1 Lili
+1 or 2 Marsh Casualities (if they play true name 2)

Elves

-2 Hymn
-2 Jace
-1 True Name

+2 Marsh Casualties
+1 Lili
+2 Fluster

Lands:

-2 Hymn
-2 Ts
-3 Push

+3 Surgical
+2Edict
+1Hydro
+1 Krosan Grip

Grixis Delver
-4 Fow
-2 Hymn
-1 Jitte

+2 Marsh Casualties
+1 Hydro
+3 Flusterstorm
+1 Lili/ Edict (depends on the List)

Aluren: never played against it

-2 Fow/ i really have to test jitte here because uf ut hits he can shoot down alot but maybe its better to side out 2 jitte
-1 Push

+ 2 hymn
+ 1 Krosan Grip

Dark Dephts

-3 Push
-2 Jitte
-1 True Name
-2 Hymn

+ 2 Edict
+ 3 Surgical
+ 1 Krosan Grip
+2 Fluster

Also this match up i never played but i gues its really random..

Good luck on your weekly

Greets Pascal

redtwister
09-20-2017, 08:02 PM
@HammerAndSickled
I'm running something close, but I think I am a little more anti-combo oriented. I do like the Terminate. Maybe Bolt is just unnecessary? I think Paul was also tinkering with Tasigur in the main somewhere and 2 thoughtseize, 1 Abrupt Decay.

In the sideboard, I could also see Swapping Liliana for Chandra. Did Chandra ever feel win-more? I was also considering maybe 2nd Toxic Deluge is overkill with EE and 1 main, so maybe some additional piece of combo hate.

Lands still seems like an atrocious match.

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Kess, Dissident Mage
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell

2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Bolt
1 Toxic Deluge

1 Thoughtseize
2 Kolaghan's Command

4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard:
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Flusterstorm
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Hydroblast
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pithing Needle

beta
09-25-2017, 11:58 AM
I am new to legacy and it's my first time trying out a four colour deck but are there any general guidelines that you veterans can provide when it comes to playing against wasteland decks? e.g how to fetch, what to fetch?

For e.g. If I am playing against RUG delver, 4 stifles and 4 wastelands. I have 2 fetches, drs, liliana and some spells. I am on the play, would you guys fetch a dual here or basic? I guess one of the reasons to fetch duals or basics is dependent on the cards in your hand, but is that a risk you are willing to take, knowing that you can probably fetch a swamp instead of an underground sea?

And would your thinking change across other wasteland heavy decks like lands or Death and taxes?

ashent
09-25-2017, 12:05 PM
I need to apologize in advance that this post is not going to be anything more than "it depends."

Most of this comes down to whether you:

1 - can "afford" the basic (can our hand even operate if we get no duals? how about if we don't draw another fetch within 2 turns?) This is often referred to as whether the hand is even functional or not on 2 basics. Many will not be.
2 - are willing to bet on a high upside play (like slamming the Sea and being in a much better position turn 4 IF he doesn't have a Wasteland)
3 - feel the matchup is positive or negative and in what way. D&T I feel is positive. I want to get to the late game without making risky plays like dying to Wasteland. Swamp -> DRS seems good here.

Agrippa91
09-25-2017, 02:39 PM
If you're sure your opponent is on stifle you should get duals. If he has a stifle he can otherwise manascrew you really easily by cutting you off a fetchland. Fetching basics might work for Storm that relies on UB only, but not on this deck that wants 3+ colors.
If you're not certain he's on stifle you should definitely fetch a basic. Your third land might get wasted, but only after you've resolved a spell. It's fine being on 2-3 lands for a while though, better than getting wasted out of the game early.
Don't play around card you're uncertain of, you're not doing yourself a favor here. That said if you can afford to take it slow and just hit land drops do it, you're the best lategame deck in the format after all.

Now in your specific example you had DRS. In that case you should always fetch a dual since wastelanding after a DRS on the draw is setting your opponent behind significantly. By fetching Swamp instead of Usea you're also signaling that you're not playing Delver and therefore daze which only helps your opponent.
If I was RUG e.g. and I had a FoW but no removal I'd force a drs off a swamp because at worst the opponent can force back. If the opponentrepresents daze though I might consider pondering on my first turn to find a removal spell and play it around daze the second turn (depends on my hand of course).

Flojo82
09-27-2017, 04:22 PM
Hi Pascal,

love the deck.

Played 2 times on our weekly tournament.

Both 3:1.

One loss against topdeck Grixis Pyromancer and one against Maverick.

Whats are the bad matchups??

Deck feels soo strong.

Thx for the Sideboard guide.

Can u also write down for Death’n’Taxes, Food Chain and Maverick, Sneak Show and Storm??

DK_TTGL
09-27-2017, 08:45 PM
Why are people using BEB and Hydroblast in this deck sideboard?

Secretly.A.Bee
09-27-2017, 10:31 PM
Why are people using BEB and Hydroblast in this deck sideboard?Blood Moon.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

DK_TTGL
09-27-2017, 11:28 PM
Blood Moon.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

But if the oponent was in a Miracles or Blade deck and use BM? These decks don't have a lot of Red targets...

Rekk
09-28-2017, 10:17 AM
I play in a bit of a weird meta where people play a lot of Thought-knot seers

I like the wastelands at 2 i have been seeing but am thinking it might be better to play 2 islands 1 swamp and 2 bloodmoons in the board (or no tnn and 1 island - if anyone has tested bloodmoon i would love to hear about it)


2 blue blast
2 redblast
2 surgical
1 marsh casualties (or toxic deluge already going to play one main)
2 surgical extraction
2 flusterstorm
2 diabolic edict
2 blood moon



2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Gurmag Angler
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
2 Fatal Push
1 Diabolic Edict
4 Force of Will
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Lightning Bolt
1 toxic deluge

1 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Volcanic Island

I also want to play ultimate price but it is really only good for killing eldrazi and edict can probably take the same spot.

H
09-28-2017, 10:28 AM
I also want to play ultimate price but it is really only good for killing eldrazi and edict can probably take the same spot.

Don't do that, Ultimate Price cannot kill a colorless creature.

(Monocolor means exactly one color, colorless creatures are exactly zero colors.)

Rekk
09-28-2017, 11:09 AM
Don't do that, Ultimate Price cannot kill a colorless creature.

(Monocolor means exactly one color, colorless creatures are exactly zero colors.)


=( I should read cards I remembered as non-artifact

wowbobwow
09-28-2017, 11:11 AM
=( I should read cards I remembered as non-artifact

That's Go For the Throat. :)

NegatorITA
09-28-2017, 12:30 PM
guys, picked up the deck recently, can I get some advice for side in / side out?

reference list:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=24939&iddeck=195701

just without wastelands.

Some advice vs the various tier would be needed, I tend to over side a lot it seems

Rekk
09-28-2017, 04:58 PM
guys, picked up the deck recently, can I get some advice for side in / side out?

reference list:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=24939&iddeck=195701

just without wastelands.

Some advice vs the various tier would be needed, I tend to over side a lot it seems

reallly really brief

cards that I look to board out
hymns
force
thoughtseize
abrupt decay
bolts
commands
pushes

we can do categories

removal
discard
counterspells

counterspells are bad in fair matchups (force cost a card (force is pretty bad against delver))
removal is bad in combo (elves players shut it this is brief)
discard is meh in midrange matchups (mav and honestly not in love with it against delver or dnt)

against creature decks more removal
against combo more counter spell / discard

I wouldn't mess too much with the creature package (except strix if the 1/1 deathtouch isn't good in the match board it out 2 mana 1 card is bad)

Nestalim
09-28-2017, 06:19 PM
I have a hard time balancing my manabase, right now i am on :
-4 Polluted Delta, 4 Tarn, 2 Verdant
-2 U.Sea, 2 Volcanic Island, 2 Tropical Island, 1 Badlands
-1 Swamp, 2 Island

Is this enough to balance the deck. I don't know if two U.sea is enough, so far I didn't have any trouble but I need some insight.

Decklist :

// 60 Maindeck
// 14 Creature
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Kess, Dissident Mage

// 18 Instant
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
3 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Lightning Bolt

// 20 Land
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacombs

// 3 Planeswalker
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil

// 5 Sorcery
4 Ponder
1 Toxic Deluge


// 14 Sideboard
// 1 Creature
SB: 1 Izzet Staticaster

// 11 Instant
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Hydroblast
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast

// 2 Sorcery
SB: 2 Thoughtseize

NegatorITA
09-28-2017, 06:22 PM
reallly really brief

cards that I look to board out
hymns
force
thoughtseize
abrupt decay
bolts
commands
pushes

we can do categories

removal
discard
counterspells

counterspells are bad in fair matchups (force cost a card (force is pretty bad against delver))
removal is bad in combo (elves players shut it this is brief)
discard is meh in midrange matchups (mav and honestly not in love with it against delver or dnt)

against creature decks more removal
against combo more counter spell / discard

I wouldn't mess too much with the creature package


Thanks with the quick response
I thought discards would be good vs Grindy match up (so jund/junk mirror, and for discard I mean tourach) and I considered these as midrange!

mike1987
09-28-2017, 10:28 PM
So i was defeated by lands in quick fashion over 2 games.

First game, i started with turn one drs, turn 3 liliana (which my drs got punishing fired) and gurmag angler the turn after. Took him down to 5 life while edicting a mart lage somewhere in btw, liliana's ultimate (left him with exploration and 2 ports), still he managed to stabilise with another marit lage with glacial chasm back up.

Boarded in : 3 surgical extractions, 1 more edict in the side, 1 hydroblast
Boarded out : 1 Kologhan's command, 1 Lightning bolt, 2 fatal push, 1 Force of Will

Second game: Started with a turn one DRS, turn 2 baleful strix and another DRS but didnt manage to dig into an edict so i lost to marit lage after i attacked with my strix and he cast an end of turn crop rotation (my mistake, should have been more conservative and held the strix back)

Anyone has any tips in approaching the lands matchup? i know not much has been said about the strategy yet but i dont have much experience playing against lands as well.

Rekk
09-29-2017, 08:02 AM
So i was defeated by lands in quick fashion over 2 games.

First game, i started with turn one drs, turn 3 liliana (which my drs got punishing fired) and gurmag angler the turn after. Took him down to 5 life while edicting a mart lage somewhere in btw, liliana's ultimate (left him with exploration and 2 ports), still he managed to stabilise with another marit lage with glacial chasm back up.

Boarded in : 3 surgical extractions, 1 more edict in the side, 1 hydroblast
Boarded out : 1 Kologhan's command, 1 Lightning bolt, 2 fatal push, 1 Force of Will

Second game: Started with a turn one DRS, turn 2 baleful strix and another DRS but didnt manage to dig into an edict so i lost to marit lage after i attacked with my strix and he cast an end of turn crop rotation (my mistake, should have been more conservative and held the strix back)

Anyone has any tips in approaching the lands matchup? i know not much has been said about the strategy yet but i dont have much experience playing against lands as well.

Lands and other silly decks are why i want bloodmoon

Manroe
10-02-2017, 10:16 AM
Hey guys. Against D&T, I board out forces and Counterspells. But in testing against my girlfriend, a long time D&T player, I got burnt repeatedly by mirran crusaders and cataclysm. Do you guys think it's worth it to keep in some forces post board to deal with these guys? I only have Jace bounce +thoughtseize, 2 sb edicts, 1 deluge, 1 lavamancer or 1 bolt to handle crusader.

Are there any options that are more flexible? Things that popped into my head:
- Pongify
- Deluge #2 in board
- More bolts
- Lavamancer #2
- Perilous Vault (seems bad, but nukes equipment too)
- Black Sun's Zenith
- Massacre



Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

MorphBerlin
10-02-2017, 05:13 PM
I now Crusader can be annoying because you can have all the cards in the world but still lose, but juyt count the number of answers you allready have, that should be enough especially with 8 Cantrips and Snapcaster.

All of the options are really bad, exept maybe the 2nd Bolt or 2nd Deluge in the SB, as almost all list have a -x/-x effect in the board, but I dont really like deluge in thaht slot.

mike1987
10-03-2017, 05:09 AM
So over the weekend, Czech pile took down two moderately sized tournaments:

1) GP Shizuoka side event in Japan - http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD35834S/

2) Ovino 7 Legacy in Italy - http://www.ovinotournament.com/ovino-xii-legacy-main-event/#1472664870636-4c738e69-9a63

Both decks going up to 3 Kolaghan's command and cutting abrupt decay. The only difference in their lists was one baleful strix for one Gurmug Angler.

Keep up the good work guys!

Whitefaces
10-03-2017, 05:41 AM
Hey guys. Against D&T, I board out forces and Counterspells. But in testing against my girlfriend, a long time D&T player, I got burnt repeatedly by mirran crusaders and cataclysm. Do you guys think it's worth it to keep in some forces post board to deal with these guys? I only have Jace bounce +thoughtseize, 2 sb edicts, 1 deluge, 1 lavamancer or 1 bolt to handle crusader.

Are there any options that are more flexible? Things that popped into my head:
- Pongify
- Deluge #2 in board
- More bolts
- Lavamancer #2
- Perilous Vault (seems bad, but nukes equipment too)
- Black Sun's Zenith
- Massacre



Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

I usually keep in two FoW vs DnT. We technically have all the answers to everything they do, but sometimes things don't line up, sometimes we need the tempo vs Thalia, and sometimes we're not in a position to ever beat a Gideon or Cataclysm. The card advantage is quite easily recouped by the deck when we're getting to the mid/late game.

For DnT I take out 2 Hymns and 2 FoW for 4 more pieces of removal in the board (2 Marsh, 2 Edict).

TheExtraMile
10-03-2017, 11:46 AM
Hey all,

I went 7-1 playing in side events this weekend and GP providence, good for 2 booster boxes :). Wanted to share my list, although it's not too different from what has been said here already.

20 lands (standard configuration, 2 basics zero waste)

4 deathrite
3 snapcaster
3 strix
2 leovold
1 kess, dissident mage

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 force
2 thoughtseize
2 hymn
2 fatal push
2 bolt
2 jtms
2 k command
1 abrupt decay
1 toxic deluge
1 diabolic edict

sideboard:
2 surgical
2 flusterstorm
2 diabolic edict
1 pyroblast
1 hydroblast
1 marsh casualties
1 toxic deluge
1 abrupt decay
1 thoughtseize
1 hymn
1 liliana, the last hope
1 umezawa's jitte

Had a blast playing legacy (as always) and really don't think I'd change anything about the deck right now. Kess was amazing every time I drew her. My one loss was a close 3 games against bug delver, wins were against elves x2, sneak/show, nic fit, jund, lands, and enchantress.

I'll be playing at the scholar's legacy event for a tabernacle in Massachusetts this saturday, hope to see some of you there!

Nestalim
10-03-2017, 01:53 PM
20 lands (standard configuration, 2 basics zero waste)

What do you call a standard configuration ? I ran nearly the same main than you, but I'm struggling on finding the good manabase. Is three U.Sea mandatory ?

TheExtraMile
10-03-2017, 02:02 PM
Standard mana base I've been running, no issue at all so far:

4 underground
2 volcanic
1 tropical
1 bayou
1 badlands
1 swamp
1 island

4 delta
2 tarn
1 verdant
1 misty
1 mire

1esha
10-05-2017, 03:07 AM
Hey all,
I went 7-1 playing in side events this weekend and GP providence, good for 2 booster boxes :). Wanted to share my list, although it's not too different from what has been said here already.


I could not figure out why do you need red in your particular build. You are running 2 bolts and 2 k commands in the main deck and 1 blast in the sb. 2 bolts could be easily replaced by pushes. So we have 3 red cards. Are these 3 cards enough to run 4th color and do not run wastelands? What about just replacing 2 k commands with decay and pulse and 1 blast with something else? Will this deck win from wastelands more? What do you think?

1esha
10-05-2017, 03:08 AM
Standard mana base I've been running, no issue at all so far:

4 underground
2 volcanic
1 tropical
1 bayou
1 badlands
1 swamp
1 island

4 delta
2 tarn
1 verdant
1 misty
1 mire

It is really depends on how may UU BB G and R cards you are running. Btw, I do not like 4 underground seas. 3 is enough. I am even playing 2nd island over 3rd sea.

Whitefaces
10-05-2017, 05:06 AM
I could not figure out why do you need red in your particular build. You are running 2 bolts and 2 k commands in the main deck and 1 blast in the sb. 2 bolts could be easily replaced by pushes. So we have 3 red cards. Are these 3 cards enough to run 4th color and do not run wastelands? What about just replacing 2 k commands with decay and pulse and 1 blast with something else? Will this deck win from wastelands more? What do you think?

'1 blast with something else' - there isn't a replacement for blast. And the decks late game is Snapcaster + Kommand, if you take blasts and kommand out you'll become a huge dog in a lot of otherwise favourable to even matchups.

Nestalim
10-05-2017, 05:34 AM
+Kess in his list, which is a monster in fair match-up.

1esha
10-05-2017, 06:59 AM
'1 blast with something else' - there isn't a replacement for blast. And the decks late game is Snapcaster + Kommand, if you take blasts and kommand out you'll become a huge dog in a lot of otherwise favourable to even matchups.

I am totally with you about the blast. That is why I think that the right number of blasts is 3. The main reason to keep red for me is a ability to cast the red blast.

Whitefaces
10-05-2017, 07:26 AM
I am totally with you about the blast. That is why I think that the right number of blasts is 3. The main reason to keep red for me is a ability to cast the red blast.

Not sure about 3, maybe in some metas, 2 is a pretty stock and safe number. And yes, I agree that Blast is probably better than Kommand, but both are worth splashing for.

NegatorITA
10-07-2017, 07:20 PM
It's me, or we can't defeat food chain unless we got "a perfect hand"?

Like I was testing with my friend and he won 6 games out of seven.

Hrothgar
10-09-2017, 04:50 AM
Hi Negator,
In my (little) experience Food Chain is a bad matchup.

Discards spells and counter for Manipulate in the early + Kolaghan and Blast for Griffin in the mid game, are our best friend here.
May attention to his Shaman who remove his Griffin from his greave obv.

Anyway I feel is bad.

H
10-09-2017, 08:15 AM
Anyone see the Snapcaster stream yesterday?

Rudy Briksza, on Czech Pile, sideboard Grave Titan?

See it here (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/180862846?t=06h31m02s).

My guess is that it was sideboard, not really sure. I mean, if you want to win the mirror, I guess that is one way to do it.

Pdingo
10-09-2017, 12:07 PM
Hei Guys

Some People asked me about my mkm series Hamburg top 4 Bug-Pile List (aka Hausmann-Bug) and Boarding against certain Match ups.
Here some more guides for some Decks:

Death’n’Taxes/Maverick:

-4 Fow
-2 Hymn (just OTD)

+2 Marsh Casualities
+1 lili of the Last Hope
+1 Krosan Grip
+2 Edict (Otd)

Food Chain:

-2 Jitte
-2 Fow
-2 Push

+2 Hymn
+3 Fluster
+1 Krosan Grip

Sneak Show

+3 Fluster
+2 Hymn
+3 Surgical
+1 Hydroblast
+1 Krosan Grip
+2 Edict

-2 jitte
-3 Push
-4 Strix
-3 True Name

Storm

+3 Fluster
+2 Hymn
+3 Surgical
+1 Hydroblast
+2 Marsh Casualties

-2 jitte
-3 Push
-4 Strix
-2 True Name

Ask me for questions

Greets Pascal

NegatorITA
10-09-2017, 12:36 PM
Hi Negator,
In my (little) experience Food Chain is a bad matchup.

Discards spells and counter for Manipulate in the early + Kolaghan and Blast for Griffin in the mid game, are our best friend here.
May attention to his Shaman who remove his Griffin from his greave obv.

Anyway I feel is bad.

the only game I won was one in which I had:
shaman on my side, and killed the one on his side.
Decayed his food chain (I run two decay, one main one side)
dropped down a fast gurmag and started beating.
He incidentaly missed one deathrite activation, so I could snap-decay his second food chain and win the game (throw in a fow countering his fow)
But boy, it was a nightmare and I had to draw all the cards I need at the right time...


Hei Guys

Some People asked me about my mkm series Hamburg top 4 Bug-Pile List (aka Hausmann-Bug) and Boarding against certain Match ups.
Here some more guides for some Decks:

Death’n’Taxes/Maverick:

-4 Fow
-2 Hymn (just OTD)

+2 Marsh Casualities
+1 lili of the Last Hope
+1 Krosan Grip
+2 Edict (Otd)

Food Chain:

-2 Jitte
-2 Fow
-2 Push

+2 Hymn
+3 Fluster
+1 Krosan Grip

Sneak Show

+3 Fluster
+2 Hymn
+3 Surgical
+1 Hydroblast
+1 Krosan Grip
+2 Edict

-2 jitte
-3 Push
-4 Strix
-3 True Name

Storm

+3 Fluster
+2 Hymn
+3 Surgical
+1 Hydroblast
+2 Marsh Casualties

-2 jitte
-3 Push
-4 Strix
-2 True Name

Ask me for questions

Greets Pascal



will try to play your list for a change tomorrow,
do you have an updated one to look after? you can just PM me if you want.

beta
10-09-2017, 11:31 PM
Hei Guys

Some People asked me about my mkm series Hamburg top 4 Bug-Pile List (aka Hausmann-Bug) and Boarding against certain Match ups.
Here some more guides for some Decks:

Death’n’Taxes/Maverick:

-4 Fow
-2 Hymn (just OTD)

+2 Marsh Casualities
+1 lili of the Last Hope
+1 Krosan Grip
+2 Edict (Otd)

Food Chain:

-2 Jitte
-2 Fow
-2 Push

+2 Hymn
+3 Fluster
+1 Krosan Grip

Sneak Show

+3 Fluster
+2 Hymn
+3 Surgical
+1 Hydroblast
+1 Krosan Grip
+2 Edict

-2 jitte
-3 Push
-4 Strix
-3 True Name

Storm

+3 Fluster
+2 Hymn
+3 Surgical
+1 Hydroblast
+2 Marsh Casualties

-2 jitte
-3 Push
-4 Strix
-2 True Name

Ask me for questions

Greets Pascal

Hausmann is on this list as well? Isnt he on food chain? Anyway what would u think is the advantage of your deck vs czech pile and food chain?

Pdingo
10-10-2017, 03:21 AM
Hei guys

No i didnt change anything. Yes hausmann's list, give credits to him:P
He's between bug and foodchain. But i have to say this deck is better than foodchain..even so if you play against foodchain hymn is great but take care for back to basic and side in the fluster..

Against czech Pile iz a grind..you should play fast here because chance of drawing is high.But i have to say it feels really even.

mike1987
10-13-2017, 12:10 PM
It's me, or we can't defeat food chain unless we got "a perfect hand"?

Like I was testing with my friend and he won 6 games out of seven.

Yup its a bad matchup for us. Just wondering what do you guys side out for both food chain and aluren.

Taking this list for starters but i am not confident on my choices:

Food Chain:
-2 fatal push, -1 Diabolic Edict, -1 Lightning bolt, -1 FOW and 1 Land for + 1 Hymn, +3 Rebs, +1 flusterstorm, +1 Liliana of the last hope

Manipulate fate is a must counter here, that card just grinds us out most of the time.

Aluren:

-2 fatal push, -1 diabolic edicit, -1 bolt, - 1 land for +1 Hymn, +3 REBs, +1 Liliana of the last hope

Havent been matching up with much aluren of late but i guess the key card to counter would be aluren or cavern harpy?

kubalonek
10-16-2017, 02:15 PM
Why not to take out strixes?
They are not doing much against combo decks like this.

Pdingo
10-16-2017, 05:29 PM
Still playing this List:
I won 2 Tournaments in Switzerland again with Bug Pile:)

First Tournament 23 Player in Basel

I have to say i splittet the finals and we did not play them because the prices where too great and it was already late:)

2:1 Merfolk
2:0 against Marius Hausmann with the same:P no just kidding he conceded because one of us will play top 8 anyway.
1:2 Jund (other Finalist) I kind of misplayed g2 (Detail) i could fetch on usea after he played hymn and i did fetch on island for fluster. I know his list, he plays 4 wasteland and 2 loam after sideboarding. The problem was now i cannot play hymn in my own turn..Maybe it would take him 2 important cards..but would be still open. G3 i get crushed. i'm sure Jund is a harder match up to face if your oppenents good with it. Missplays or bad timings can cost you games.
2:1 Random Pile Fauna Shaman deck??
Draw

Top 8

2:1 Eldrazi Taxes
2:0 Merfolk

Split finals against Jund.

Second Tournament in Lucerne.. 27 Player i think

2:0 Tezzerator
2:0 Jund (He misplayed g2 a fire and he did not playing around surgical:))
2:1 Affinity
Draw
Draw

Top 8

2:0 Eldrazi 12 Post (The only good 12 Post since the top bann!!!)
2:1 Infect
2:0 Final: Reanimator Dark Dephts (lol)

Standings are now 37:5 without draws and the concede of marius. i should finally play the mirror:P
I'm very happy with the Deck! did not change anything.

// 60 Hauptdeck
// 2 Artifact
2 Umezawa's Jitte

// 15 Creature
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
4 Baleful Strix

// 13 Instant
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push

// 21 Land
3 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Swamp
1 Island
3 Verdant Catacombs

// 2 Planeswalker
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// 7 Sorcery
2 Thoughtseize
3 Ponder
2 Hymn to Tourach


// 15 Sideboard
// 10 Instant
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Hydroblast
SB: 3 Flusterstorm

// 1 Planeswalker
SB: 1 Liliana, the Last Hope

// 4 Sorcery
SB: 2 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 2 Marsh Casualties

Greets Pascal

blablub
10-17-2017, 04:47 AM
Im a huge Fan of your List and will give it a shot ;) only one question, i feel your 3-Mana Drop Slot is very high, do you think this can become an issue? especially if you don't have a DRS? Otherwise i like the Nemesis+Jitte Approach because of the their fast closing potential, which i missed with the czech pile. What do you think of playin a few Goyfs to make the curve a lil bit bitter? If you say thats bullshit, i will try your exact list :D

edit: and another question :P what is your Boardingplan against the Mirror? what goes out?

Hrothgar
10-17-2017, 05:41 AM
Hi Pascal!
You list seems very good!
I work on a similar approach.
Some random questions:

Main:

- never needs for 4th Ponder?
- never needs a sacrifice effect (Liliana/Edict)?

Sideboard:

- have you tested 1 Life From the Loam in 15's for matchup like 4c, Eldrazi / Big and other?
- have you test in side 1 Thoughtseize + 1 Hymn instead of 2 Hymn for add 1 discard effect in Reanimator matchup?

Matchups:

- Which are, in you opinion, the worst matchup?
- many of Jund matchup imho depending by the roll. Have you starting the game you've lost otd?

Pdingo
10-17-2017, 07:28 AM
@blablub

no i never had any problems also i don't think it's very high. i mean it's a midrange control deck with 22 land and cantrips. i start often without shaman.
T1 Ponder or Ts or even just fetch go depending on my hand.

I would never play Goyf now. Really bad Card right now! Dies on everything and does nothing what the deck wants.. so i have to say bullshit:P

Sideboarding Mirror:

-4 Fow
-3 Fatal Push ( 1 for 1 is bad in this match up)
-2 Jitte

+2 Hymn
+3 Fluster
+2 Marsh Casualties
+1 Edict
+1 Lili

i think i would do it like this:)


@Hrothgar

No i never wanted it.. 3 is enough and i prefer cards like jitte and 3 is very well balanced in this deck.
Marius Hausmann played 1 edict main but i never saw edict as a main card. Sideboard is fine.

Life from the loam can be great but still i never needed it. I can win against 12 Post without. Eldrazi is anyway a good match up. Just to fix some grindy match ups could be cool. if you have some in the meta just add it to your sideboard.

If you want to play discard like TS in the sideboard just do it, but against match up like czech pile or 12 Post i prefer hymn a lot more. 2 for 1 is the way here!

I never faced a really bad Match up with this deck. Miracle is hard to win against specially a skilled opponent. Johannes Gutbrod and i played and he won 3:0 with miracle then we changed the decks and i won 3:0 with miracle.
Moon stompy decks like the new chandra Stompy is really bad i think. I don't think we can win unless we're lucky.. PW's, Moon, Fiery confluence, Chalice and more are really strong cards against us!

Greets Pascal

Kobal
10-17-2017, 09:22 AM
I never faced a really bad Match up with this deck. Miracle is hard to win against specially a skilled opponent. Johannes Gutbrod and i played and he won 3:0 with miracle then we changed the decks and i won 3:0 with miracle.

Was that the Mentor Miracles list with Daze, or a more conventional build?

from Cairo
10-17-2017, 09:49 AM
Does Czech Pile have a discord server?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Pdingo
10-17-2017, 10:45 AM
Was that the Mentor Miracles list with Daze, or a more conventional build?

Without but doesn't matter

kubalonek
10-19-2017, 03:24 AM
Last weekend I played a tournament that was played simultaneously with Polish Nationals (it supposed to be Polish National Legacy Challenge).
Only 17 players showed up.

R1: BUG Nicfit 2-0
R2: 4C Delver 2-0
R3: D&T 2-0
R4: ID
R5: ID

Q: Aggro Loam 2-0
S: Eldrazi 2-1
F: Maverick ID

Deck was like real killing machine. Only close games were against Eldrazi. The worst card all day was Force of Will probably due to the fact that the meta was full of fair decks. Sometimes I miss maindeck Abrupt Decay.
The decklist was like this:

2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gurmag Angler

2 Diabolic Edict
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
3 Kolaghan's Command
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

1 Toxic Deluge
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta


Sideboard
3 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Marsh Casualties
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library
1 Ancient Grudge

Fatal
10-19-2017, 04:25 AM
Cheers !

I was that Maverick, interesting that deck is missing Abrupt Decay. Does Edicts was better here - how many times you have faced TNN ?

I was preparing for Czech Pile with Chokes, and DD-TS combo plan along with Loam.
My plan was to side out all SFM package (not good vs K.Commands) and bring Ancient Grudges and removal to clear the way for Marit Lage. As diverse I would use wastelands with loam.

Interesting that I made similar change between Satruday and Sunday - I swap 2 Abrupt Decay for 2 Ancient Grudge to answer all those equipments, vials and Strixs.

An other question what do you think about TNN in Czech Pile ?
And last one - how you would prepare for Blood Moon decks ?

mike1987
10-19-2017, 11:56 AM
Last weekend I played a tournament that was played simultaneously with Polish Nationals (it supposed to be Polish National Legacy Challenge).
Only 17 players showed up.

R1: BUG Nicfit 2-0
R2: 4C Delver 2-0
R3: D&T 2-0
R4: ID
R5: ID

Q: Aggro Loam 2-0
S: Eldrazi 2-1
F: Maverick ID

Deck was like real killing machine. Only close games were against Eldrazi. The worst card all day was Force of Will probably due to the fact that the meta was full of fair decks. Sometimes I miss maindeck Abrupt Decay.
The decklist was like this:

2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gurmag Angler

2 Diabolic Edict
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
3 Kolaghan's Command
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

1 Toxic Deluge
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta


Sideboard
3 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Marsh Casualties
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library
1 Ancient Grudge

Just curious what is your general match approach and sb towards nic fit and eldrazi?

tjongster
10-19-2017, 01:19 PM
been playing this deck for a few weeks now and have been finding hymm to tourach a rather lacklaster cards in many matchups ..
is it just me or does the card feel out of place ?
I am currently running a pair in the main board along side a pair of thoughtseizes as my discards main

kubalonek
10-19-2017, 01:30 PM
As for TNN I've seen only once. It died to Edict end of story. Edict was shining all day long. I have never faced YP so it was always dealing with fatties or annoying creatures like opponent DS.
I'm not a fan of TNN in 4C. I prefer one Angler. It costs most of the time only B mana and sets 4 turn clock.
From the Blood Moon decks Mono R is the worst one (with chalices / trinis / chandras etc.). You probably cannot win at all. Other decks using Blood Moon in G2 or G3 it is easy to fetch Island and Swamp and then win the game with snapcasters + K.Commands / Angler etc.

Playing against Eldrazi is hard post board / pre board. There is not much to take from SB, I guess only 1 Edict + 1 Ancient Grudge taking out 2x Jace (jace is too slow especialy they have 4x Thorn of Amethyst post board). You have to grind with K Command trying to kill chalice, keep their creatures at the bay with strixes and be aware that they have also Warping Wails.

As for NicFit I was playing against it 1st time. I took out for G2 2 Lightning Bolt, 2 Fatal Push, 1 Command for 1 Edict, 2 Surgical Extraction, 2 Pyroblast. He was runing Jaces / Brainstorms / Strixes / Leovolds form blue colour.
Surgical for Eternal Witness and Meren of Clan Nel Toth targets. Not sure if I was correct. Both game Jace was MVP because it was resistant to Pernicious Deed.
Also Leovold was very good.

Hrothgar
10-20-2017, 05:05 AM
@Hrothgar

No i never wanted it.. 3 is enough and i prefer cards like jitte and 3 is very well balanced in this deck.
Marius Hausmann played 1 edict main but i never saw edict as a main card. Sideboard is fine.

Life from the loam can be great but still i never needed it. I can win against 12 Post without. Eldrazi is anyway a good match up. Just to fix some grindy match ups could be cool. if you have some in the meta just add it to your sideboard.

If you want to play discard like TS in the sideboard just do it, but against match up like czech pile or 12 Post i prefer hymn a lot more. 2 for 1 is the way here!

I never faced a really bad Match up with this deck. Miracle is hard to win against specially a skilled opponent. Johannes Gutbrod and i played and he won 3:0 with miracle then we changed the decks and i won 3:0 with miracle.
Moon stompy decks like the new chandra Stompy is really bad i think. I don't think we can win unless we're lucky.. PW's, Moon, Fiery confluence, Chalice and more are really strong cards against us!

Greets Pascal

Thanks for reply.
Very interesting thoughts.
:smile:
I want to test this solutions now.

Fatal
10-20-2017, 11:08 AM
As for TNN I've seen only once. It died to Edict end of story. Edict was shining all day long. I have never faced YP so it was always dealing with fatties or annoying creatures like opponent DS.
I'm not a fan of TNN in 4C. I prefer one Angler. It costs most of the time only B mana and sets 4 turn clock.
From the Blood Moon decks Mono R is the worst one (with chalices / trinis / chandras etc.). You probably cannot win at all. Other decks using Blood Moon in G2 or G3 it is easy to fetch Island and Swamp and then win the game with snapcasters + K.Commands / Angler etc.

Playing against Eldrazi is hard post board / pre board. There is not much to take from SB, I guess only 1 Edict + 1 Ancient Grudge taking out 2x Jace (jace is too slow especialy they have 4x Thorn of Amethyst post board). You have to grind with K Command trying to kill chalice, keep their creatures at the bay with strixes and be aware that they have also Warping Wails.

As for NicFit I was playing against it 1st time. I took out for G2 2 Lightning Bolt, 2 Fatal Push, 1 Command for 1 Edict, 2 Surgical Extraction, 2 Pyroblast. He was runing Jaces / Brainstorms / Strixes / Leovolds form blue colour.
Surgical for Eternal Witness and Meren of Clan Nel Toth targets. Not sure if I was correct. Both game Jace was MVP because it was resistant to Pernicious Deed.
Also Leovold was very good.

As for Nic Fit - I don't think surgical is worth bringing, there is little window to exile cabal therapy (or even no window), more over exiling some singletons which are bringing by E.Witness or Meren is not worth 1 card from hand, other story when they bring back some 3-4 of cards like removal, anyway I don't think surgical is worth bringing against.
Sugical < Red Elemental Blast, Discard (Hymn), Thread even counters like FoW will be better then Surgical - can stop Veteran Explorer from resolving, works also as overcosted Counterspell which isn't to hard to cast after they trigger Explorer.

Pdingo
10-22-2017, 03:11 AM
Hei guys

Finally my record takes an end..
Played my bug pile list again in a 30 men tournament.
I got stopped in the top 4.
I have to say i played really poorly some small but important missplay in the end of the top 4..

2:1 Bug delver
2:0 chandra stompy
0:2 Dnt with black splash..normally you cannot lose to it but g1 he played pontif for my true name..still jitte and leovold on board.. then i just get flooded by drawing lands..
G2 mull to 4...
2:0 Dark dephts
I draw

Top 8

2:1 infect.. i missplay g1 again poorly..
1:2 dnt (same) g1 he takes mull to 6 otp..i keep a fetch 1 lander with fow , jitw, shaman, push,strix so i keep it otd. The way to beat this hand is double stp and wasteland..he have it and i just draw 1 land alot later and i concede..
G2 i do what my deck does..
G3 my hand is nuts but t3 council judgment take my true name and t4 monarch guy takes my last creatureshaman with jitte... then i drow just 1 or 2 removals and just lands again!!! And i lose..

I was like ok if dnt this lucky i just lose..also i made a noob missplay with push maybe if i wouldnt do that i could probably safe more time but still not sure..

But i'm ok with top 4:)

Greets Pascal

Morden
10-22-2017, 02:44 PM
the BUG list is very appealing to me, also because they are the colors that I like most.

but there is a big missing, imho, that stops me playing this deck: pyroblast. Pdingo, how do you fight against blue-control deck? Is leo your only answer to Jace? I guess you have to keep FoW...... or you replace them with Fluster?

Water_Wizard
10-22-2017, 04:54 PM
I've been seeing a few lists running Grafdigger's Cage in the sideboard. Why? This doesn't pair well with Snapcaster Mage. My speculation is against Elves, it slows down Natural Order and Green Sun's Zenith, but they can still ping you by committee or use Glimpse of Nature, unless you have Leovold present. Cage vs. Reanimator is great and perhaps that's the reason. Just asking for a friend...

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=25232&iddeck=197963

See Bo55sauce list - https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-10-22

Pdingo
10-23-2017, 06:55 AM
the BUG list is very appealing to me, also because they are the colors that I like most.

but there is a big missing, imho, that stops me playing this deck: pyroblast. Pdingo, how do you fight against blue-control deck? Is leo your only answer to Jace? I guess you have to keep FoW...... or you replace them with Fluster?


Well is there any blue controll deck?
The only one i know is miracle and i have to say its a harder match up..but board in fluster and more discard. This should be fine but it is still pretty hard. Here i keep in all the forces

The other one is uwr stoneblade. Here you basically do the same but take in the marah casualties just for true name.
Here you can side out some forces.
The diffrent between miracle and stoneblade is that you cannot make great card advange like with miracle. So hymn are here alot more efficient. My answet to jace is always discard, true name or leovold. But if you really fear a jace then play maelstrom pulse in the sideboard.


Greets Pascal

Morden
10-23-2017, 07:52 AM
Well is there any blue controll deck?
The only one i know is miracle and i have to say its a harder match up..but board in fluster and more discard. This should be fine but it is still pretty hard. Here i keep in all the forces

The other one is uwr stoneblade. Here you basically do the same but take in the marah casualties just for true name.
Here you can side out some forces.
The diffrent between miracle and stoneblade is that you cannot make great card advange like with miracle. So hymn are here alot more efficient. My answet to jace is always discard, true name or leovold. But if you really fear a jace then play maelstrom pulse in the sideboard.


Greets Pascal

yeah, I was thinking about pulse, but I prefer instant solution. Maybe notion thief (I REALLY love that card......slow, you have to be open, but if it resolves after a brainstorm/jace's activation, it's game).

thanks for the input!

Serch
10-23-2017, 11:36 AM
What's your opinion about top 5 list at the Eternal Weekend in North America?

Two baby Jaces and three Kozileks main deck.

Pdingo
10-24-2017, 03:00 AM
Jace seems like a controll card for me its a bader snapcaster mage but maybe it can be good in a slow format.

Inquisiton of kozilek hmm i really don't like this card as a legacy card..jace, fow or even gurmag is important to take sometimes..i dont know why inquisiton is played over TS.
And just losing -2 life is not an argument..burn is still bad and not heavy played..

Whitefaces
10-24-2017, 05:35 AM
Fwiw Ondrej will have most likely got the decklist from Tomas Mar, who made this deck in the beginning. I'd be sure that all the choices are well thought out.

beta
10-24-2017, 05:56 AM
What's your opinion about top 5 list at the Eternal Weekend in North America?

Two baby Jaces and three Kozileks main deck.

I am also curious about the where does czech pile stands in the current metagame? Looks like delvers are still putting up better numbers, despite czech pile being the most played deck in the tournament. It is still a great deck, dont get me wrong but is there some changes we can make to combat delver better?

Whitefaces
10-24-2017, 07:37 AM
I don't think you need to do anything to combat Delver. Just because it's putting up better results doesn't make it a bad matchup, they're not connected.

Bad matchups are Lands and some fast combo decks like TES and Dredge I think, SnS can be tough too.

I played the deck at a local tournament this weekend with 54 players, got a Force of Will for the result. I got to try out a Bitterblossom in the sideboard a bit more, it was a must answer in the mirror (where it did get answered by Decay unfortunately, but that card isn't standard in every list these days) and vs other midrange/control decks that doesn't get hit by pyro/hydro blast. Quite happy with it so far, has anyone else tried it?

kubalonek, nice last result. Our lists are very close, I'm really happy with most of it.

2-0 vs BUG Delver
1-2 vs Miracles
1-2 vs 4c
2-1 vs DnT
2-0 vs Elves
2-0 vs Big Red
2-0 vs UWR Stoneblade
2-0 vs Punishing Dack

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Gurmag Angler

1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Fatal Push
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Kolaghan’s Command
1 Thoughtseize
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Hymn to Tourach

3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Misty Rainforest

SB
2 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Bitterblossom
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Marsh Casualties

zerzab11
10-25-2017, 02:50 PM
RE: Inquisition of Kozilek: I chatted a little with Tomas Mar on this subject and played his list @Ovino (lost my win-and-in to TurboDepths). I'll try to give som insights on this subject (might be a little off of Tomas' thougts though)
The general thought is you want to be able to trade one for one or even 1 for 2 (e.g. forcing an important spell earlygame) in the earlygame a lot.
In the mid- to lategame your superior spells will draw you ahead anyways, so it's good to have more plays in the early game (more CC1 discard) to have more choices.
Many games are lost bc we have cards in hand we were'nt able to play. The lifeloss matters a lot. Ofc mostly vs more aggressive decks, but even in mirror matches it makes a difference, too.
Another point is developing your gameplay according to your opponents hand (seeing your opponents hand more often during games is important).

bum_man
10-28-2017, 02:04 PM
Hi Everyone,

Just got back from a third place finish in a tournament rocking the below list. Will try to provide a more comprehensive report later today. Just wanted to ask some key questions regarding deck philosophy in general. Below is my list.

Czech Pile

20 Lands
4 Polluted Delta
2 scalding tarn
2 bloodstained mire
2 wasteland
1 island
1 swamp
3 underground sea
2 Volcanic island
1 tropical island
1 bayou
1 badlands

13 CREATURE
4 deathrite shaman
4 baleful strix
3 snapcaster mage
2 Leovold emissary of trest

3 PLANESWALKER
2 Jace the mindsculptor
1 Liliana of the veil

24 SORCERY AND INSTANTS
4 brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 force of will
2 kolaghans command
2 hymn to tourach
2 Thoughtseize
2 fatal push
1 lightning bolt
1 Counterspell
1 toxic deluge
1 diabolic edict

15 SIDEBOARD
2 surgical extraction
2 hymn to tourach
1 red elemental blast
1 pyroblast
1 blue elemental blast
1 hydroblast
1 flusterstorm
1 Counterspell
1 life from the loam
1 umezawas jitte
1 toxic deluge
1 marsh casualties
1 diabolic edict

Thoughts:
-4 baleful strix is a must have for me. Great 2 for 1 engine with kommands and helps manage early game to get to a point where the CA starts to put us ahead. I've never felt the need to speed up the clock. Finished all my matches and oddly enough, won through creatures all the days since walkers were most of my side outs.

-2 Counterspell in the 75. I've found Counterspell to be a very good card especially post board where forces gets sided out. These aren't commonly played but I feel good with them. Thoughts?

- Abrupt Decay vs Liliana of the Veil. This is currently my flex slot in the MD. Both cards have merits but not sold on either. I liked the Counterspell md instead of playing both lotv and abrupt decay. Do you think it is needed?

-Has anyone made use of other sweepers outside of marsh casualties and deluge? Deluge seems great but there are cases where being able to deluge is difficult due to us being on low life. Thoughts?

-IMO at least 2 wasteland is mandatory. I've won a lot of critical matches off of the 2 wastelands. Anyone having mixed results with this setup?

-Does this deck have a discord group? I'd like to join if you do. Thanks!

XR_TRON
10-28-2017, 03:51 PM
Hello everyone, I've been playing the deck for a few months now and here is what I've found to work the best for me. I would appreciate any feedback on this list as well as suggestions for any card changes or substitutions. The obvious change might be Counterspell or Abrupt Decay. The pair of Counterspells have worked out well for me, but I see most people don't run them anymore. Maybe because it's too slow? Especially on the draw anyways. Abrupt Decay can be clunky at times, but for the most part it's solid removal. Anyway, here's the list and I look forward to any feedback. Thank you. :smile:

Mainboard
4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force Of Will
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Counterspell
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Thoughtseize
1 Hymn To Tourach

2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana, The Last Hope

4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Dread of Night
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hydroblast
1 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrade
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Hymn To Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge


Also, what does everyone think of Search for Azcanta? I was considering trying it, but maybe it's either redundant or someone else has tried it but without success. Thanks.

Shaka1333
10-30-2017, 03:38 AM
The deck almost didn't put any results in the last 2 major US tournaments despite being played (only the best player in the room Ondrej Strasky made quaterfinal with it at the EW but 0 version made Top32 at the SCG Open...).

I thought it was clearly in the Top5 of the format, maybe the best deck, so I am very surprised.

Is the deck actually bad ?
Is it, in fact, not heavily played in the US (the 15 4c Control on SCG could be other decks without red) like it is on MTGO ?
What do you think ?

Hanni
10-30-2017, 08:11 AM
The deck almost didn't put any results in the last 2 major US tournaments despite being played (only the best player in the room Ondrej Strasky made quaterfinal with it at the EW but 0 version made Top32 at the SCG Open...).

I thought it was clearly in the Top5 of the format, maybe the best deck, so I am very surprised.

Is the deck actually bad ?
Is it, in fact, not heavily played in the US (the 15 4c Control on SCG could be other decks without red) like it is on MTGO ?
What do you think ?

Most of the time, when a deck becomes a DTB, people become prepared for it. This deck has several big weaknesses, which make it much easier to hate out than a more resilient DTB like old Miracles or Grixis Delver.

For starters, the manabase is atrocious. The colored requirements are all over the board, so the deck is very vulnerable to Wasteland, removal for your DRS, Back to Basics, Blood Moon, etc.

You run a large number of removal spells that are dead draws against combo decks, not enough interaction in game 1, and a slow clock. So you are also vulnerable to various combo decks. These matchups can be improved postboard, but I'd still very much consider this another weakness.

Lastly, the other midrange and control decks of the format are beginning to adjust and tweak with Czech Pile in mind. What this means is that, what were originally your best matchups, have slowly gotten worse. People are now prepared to either get under you, or to keep up with you in CA. For example, I went 2-1 against Czech Pile twice during the EW main event with Mentor Deathblade by doing a combination of both of those things.

JackaBo
10-30-2017, 09:05 AM
I believe that as long as no deck is broken (which miracle was, and 4c isn't) the best deck will only be marginally best as the other decks can evolve around it. Just as Hanni said I think other decks are prepared for a czech pile meta and because if that czech pile isn't that well positioned. I also think that the high density of czech piles online makes it worse: there people are starting to next level other piles with more and more value and grind cards, even as sideboard tech. If you come to an open meta with that version of the deck you're bound to loose.

Shaka1333
10-30-2017, 09:30 AM
That's a very fair point JackaBo. It is true that people try to optimize their 4c Control to beat other 4c Control (I have faced a lot of Sylvan Library and Painful Truths, even a miser Divert which was very painful on my Hymn to Tourach) and so if you arrive in a live tournament with your 4c Control optimized to beat other 4c Control, you will likely not have a good chance of success.

The other question is : Why is it still that heavily played on MTGO if the deck is not that good ? I believe the level in MTGO is (way) higher than the one in a big live tournament so people should change their deck if it was not that good (plus it is easier to buy another deck on MTGO than it is in paper).

Hanni, I agree that the manabase is not great but it is better than people might think. I honestly rarely have problems. Yes you can lose against 2 Wasteland + Stifle, early Blood Moon or Back to Basics (I play 2 Abrupt Decay and 3 Pyroblast though) but most of the time, it is fine.

I didn't test against a lot of combo decks yet but it seems pretty even to me.

Except UWr Miracles, I don't really see how other Midrange / Control can compete in term of long game CA against 4c Control. I honestly don't think that your 3 matches against the deck is enough to conclude anything (no offense) especially when Ondrej Strasky's hands were really bad in the quarters and you got him with a "lucky" EE (it is extremely rare that you can handle two gamebreakers like Jace and Library at the same time ^^;).

Hanni
10-30-2017, 09:48 AM
That's a very fair point JackaBo. It is true that people try to optimize their 4c Control to beat other 4c Control (I have faced a lot of Sylvan Library and Painful Truths, even a miser Divert which was very painful on my Hymn to Tourach) and so if you arrive in a live tournament with your 4c Control optimized to beat other 4c Control, you will likely not have a good chance of success.

The other question is : Why is it still that heavily played on MTGO if the deck is not that good ? I believe the level in MTGO is (way) higher than the one in a big live tournament so people should change their deck if it was not that good (plus it is easier to buy another deck on MTGO than it is in paper).

Hanni, I agree that the manabase is not great but it is better than people might think. I honestly rarely have problems. Yes you can lose against 2 Wasteland + Stifle, early Blood Moon or Back to Basics (I play 2 Abrupt Decay and 3 Pyroblast though) but most of the time, it is fine.

I didn't test against a lot of combo decks yet but it seems pretty even to me.

Except UWr Miracles, I don't really see how other Midrange / Control can compete in term of long game CA against 4c Control. I honestly don't think that your 3 matches against the deck is enough to conclude anything (no offense) especially when Ondrej Strasky's hands were really bad in the quarters and you got him with a "lucky" EE (it is extremely rare that you can handle two gamebreakers like Jace and Library at the same time ^^;).

No one is saying the deck is not good. We're saying that this isn't the next Miracles... if you're the current DTB and on everyone's radar, you're going to have a bad day. That's all. In fairness, most decks become easy to beat when people are gunning for them. The same things happen to Eldrazi Stompy, Elves, Sneak and Show, Lands, etc.

In regards to the manabase, sometimes it's not even an opponent's cards that you lose to. Sometimes, you just lose to yourself. In my game 2 against Ondrej, he was unable to find red mana for like 7 turns, which likely lost him the game.

I'm not saying my games against Czech Pile were definitive, especially with such a small sample size. I did lose to Czech Pile the day before, going 0-2, although he played two Leo's each in both games, and pretty early in both games to boot. I did not have Council's Judgment or Toxic Deluge in my board at the time, but my point is that I did lose to Czech Pile as well. I'm not saying the matchup is unfavorable for you, I'm saying that these other midrange matchups are no longer as favorable for you as they used to be.

Also, the EE wasn't lucky. I set that up several turns in advance, putting it back on top of my library with a Brainstorm to protect it from discard. I wasn't expecting the Sylvan Library to show up and cause it to be a blowout 2-for-1, but it still wasn't "lucky". I got to see his decklist before the match, and prepared a sideboard plan to beat what I thought his postboard configuration was going to be. Regardless, that's not really a discussion I want to go too deep into right now, so I'll leave it at that.

Shaka1333
10-30-2017, 10:25 AM
I understand your points but it doesn't help me choosing which deck I should test next haha :tongue: (I played Stoneblade and BUG Shardless in the past, Miracles for a few years, I tried 4c Control on MTGO, now I am trying Grixis Pyromancer and i hesitate between your list or TheArtchitect list of Esper Mentor, UWr Miracles or some random home brews).

Despite all this, I still don't know if the deck simply performed poorly in those 2 tournaments because of all the weaknesses you pointed out or because it was not heavily played/not played by a lot of good players like it is on MTGO.

Again, I didn't mean to offend you or minimize your skill (that is why I said no offense and "lucky" with " " ). Despite your sideboard plan and your brainstorm protection, it was because still a bit lucky to win with that since a) you may not draw EE at the right time b) he may not have 2 2ccm at the same time on the battlefield c) few people play Library and very few play Baby Jace so winning against 4c Control on the back of EE is extremely rare.

(Btw his manabase is way worse than classic version since he is playing 2 Wasteland and only one Volcanic Island)

Hanni
10-30-2017, 10:43 AM
I understand your points but it doesn't help me choosing which deck I should test next haha :tongue: (I played Stoneblade and BUG Shardless in the past, Miracles for a few years, I tried 4c Control on MTGO, now I am trying Grixis Pyromancer and i hesitate between your list or TheArtchitect list of Esper Mentor, UWr Miracles or some random home brews).

Despite all this, I still don't know if the deck simply performed poorly in those 2 tournaments because of all the weaknesses you pointed out or because it was not heavily played/not played by a lot of good players like it is on MTGO.

Again, I didn't mean to offend you or minimize your skill (that is why I said no offense and "lucky" with " " ). Despite your sideboard plan and your brainstorm protection, it was because still a bit lucky to win with that since a) you may not draw EE at the right time b) he may not have 2 2ccm at the same time on the battlefield c) few people play Library and very few play Baby Jace so winning against 4c Control on the back of EE is extremely rare.

(Btw his manabase is way worse than classic version since he is playing 2 Wasteland and only one Volcanic Island)

Understandable. I think your best bet is to find the one that you most enjoy playing, and then practice and optimize that one.

Czech Pile may have underperformed in the last couple of events, but it could quite easily make a big comeback if people stop preparing for it. So if you like this deck, I see no reason to jump ship after only two bad performances.

Nestalim
10-31-2017, 08:31 AM
There is no such things as best deck, just decks that are very consistent at winning and grinding long tournament.

Legacy is the history of people who just jam a deck that have outperformed a week, because the format is so complex and so hard to master than the netdeck effect is strong.

The thing is, 4c Control is a very strong deck, as there is a few way to attack it, but people tends to think that it is just a pile of good cards and they can jam it and go for the win. Except that it is not the case, and now that everybody knows it, people will just adjust.

They will adjust with their choice of decks, for instance, I believe that the resurgence of Tempo ***** is due to 4c, as the deck is doing well against it, as 4c Loam which has overperformed on the last two events.

People are now playing more grindy sideboard tech, and good players are moving on the new flavours of the month, aka Esper Mentor.

If you want to play the best deck, just jam 4 delver, 4 daze and 4 fow and start building around this. Anything else will always be less consistent in winning tournament.

But your way of dealing with the format is quite unhealthy, you can't just come on a forum and ask people if the deck is now bad because it underperformed on two tournaments, make you a godamn opinion and play Legacy for Leovold's sake, you're going nowhere like this.

Machinus
10-31-2017, 02:08 PM
Here's what I've been playing.

4 Force of Will
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan's Command

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe

1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Baleful Strix
3 Young Pyromancer
4 Deathrite Shaman

2 Wasteland
1 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
2 volcanic Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn

SB:
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Dread of Night
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle

Hanni
10-31-2017, 02:21 PM
Here's what I've been playing.

4 Force of Will
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan's Command

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe

1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Baleful Strix
3 Young Pyromancer
4 Deathrite Shaman

2 Wasteland
1 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
2 volcanic Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn

SB:
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Dread of Night
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle

That's Grixis Pyromancer, or Grixis Control, whichever you prefer. It's very close to Czech Pile, but the defining criteria of Czech Pile is 4c Leovold Control, which your list is not.

The thread for that approach is Grixis Control (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28859-Deck-Grixis-Control-Thieves/page22).

ironclad8690
10-31-2017, 09:03 PM
That's Grixis Pyromancer, or Grixis Control, whichever you prefer. It's very close to Czech Pile, but the defining criteria of Czech Pile is 4c Leovold Control, which your list is not.

The thread for that approach is Grixis Control (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28859-Deck-Grixis-Control-Thieves/page22).

This Grixis Control/Czech Pile thing reminds me of when people where confusing Grixis Delver with 4c Delver. In both cases Young Pyromancer has been the defining criteria.

Machinus
11-01-2017, 10:34 PM
That's Grixis Pyromancer, or Grixis Control, whichever you prefer. It's very close to Czech Pile, but the defining criteria of Czech Pile is 4c Leovold Control, which your list is not.

The thread for that approach is Grixis Control (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28859-Deck-Grixis-Control-Thieves/page22).

Naming decks in Legacy is not as black and white as you might wish. Anyway, other than not playing Leovold, my deck is closer to this one than that one.

Fatal
11-03-2017, 01:58 PM
Differences:

Czech Pile vs Grixis Control:
0-2 wastelands vs 2-4 wastelands
2 basics vs 0 basics
1-2 Leovold vs 0 Leovold
0-2 Abrupt Decay vs 0 Abrupt Decay
0 Young Pyromancer vs 2-4 Young Pyromancer
0 Cabal Therapy vs 2-4 Cabal Therapy
2-3 Hymn to Tourach vs 0 Hymn to Tourach
0 Preordain vs 0-3 Preordain

Other cards are shared mostly depends on build.

Fra_44
11-03-2017, 04:00 PM
Differences:

Czech Pile vs Grixis Control:
0-2 wastelands vs 2-4 wastelands
2 basics vs 0 basics
1-2 Leovold vs 0 Leovold
0-2 Abrupt Decay vs 0 Abrupt Decay
0 Young Pyromancer vs 2-4 Young Pyromancer
0 Cabal Therapy vs 2-4 Cabal Therapy
2-3 Hymn to Tourach vs 0 Hymn to Tourach
0 Preordain vs 0-3 Preordain

Other cards are shared mostly depends on build.

Grixis Control with Preordains runs 0 wastelands and 2/3 basic FYI

JackaBo
11-03-2017, 05:04 PM
Grixis Control with Preordains runs 0 wastelands and 2/3 basic FYI

Yeah why would you assume the three color deck runs fewer basics than the four color deck

blablub
11-04-2017, 08:29 AM
Do you guys think that there is a way to fight Burn-decks? or is it just a bad matchUp? there is a lot of Burn and UR in my meta. Or should i just play a different deck then? :D

MorphBerlin
11-04-2017, 02:28 PM
Do you guys think that there is a way to fight Burn-decks? or is it just a bad matchUp? there is a lot of Burn and UR in my meta. Or should i just play a different deck then? :D

Honestly my Burn % hasn't been too bad lately on modo. 2 BEB + 2 Soft counters do a ot of work and you should look for that angler asap

blablub
11-04-2017, 02:33 PM
Honestly my Burn % hasn't been too bad lately on modo. 2 BEB + 2 Soft counters do a ot of work and you should look for that angler asap

Yeah, currently im runnin the BUG Version with 3 Nemesis and Jitte Main. Adding Blue-Blasts to the SB and getting a clock might be good enough, thanks

bum_man
11-11-2017, 11:38 AM
Differences:

Czech Pile vs Grixis Control:
0-2 wastelands vs 2-4 wastelands
2 basics vs 0 basics
1-2 Leovold vs 0 Leovold
0-2 Abrupt Decay vs 0 Abrupt Decay
0 Young Pyromancer vs 2-4 Young Pyromancer
0 Cabal Therapy vs 2-4 Cabal Therapy
2-3 Hymn to Tourach vs 0 Hymn to Tourach
0 Preordain vs 0-3 Preordain

Other cards are shared mostly depends on build.

Just my 2 cents. In my experience playing decks in line with Czech pile and grixis control, the strategies are vastly different. Take into consideration the velocity at which these decks close games out and how they generate advantage. Grixis control plays with velocity clocking opponents while generating value off YP and their cantrips and disruption. Czech pile aims to generate CA over the course of the game until you get to the late game where the CA takes over.

IMO grixis control is a YP deck while pile is a snapcaster deck.

RE: Burn matchup haven't tested this yet but I'm hoping 1 blue blasts and 2 flusterstorm is mandatory imo. I play 2 Counterspell as well in my 75 as additional answer to burn haymakers. It's a manageable matchup but whatever, losing to it is fine unless it's like 15% or higher of your metagame.

LarsLeif
11-11-2017, 12:41 PM
Just my 2 cents. In my experience playing decks in line with Czech pile and grixis control, the strategies are vastly different. Take into consideration the velocity at which these decks close games out and how they generate advantage. Grixis control plays with velocity clocking opponents while generating value off YP and their cantrips and disruption. Czech pile aims to generate CA over the course of the game until you get to the late game where the CA takes over.

IMO grixis control is a YP deck while pile is a snapcaster deck.

RE: Burn matchup haven't tested this yet but I'm hoping 1 blue blasts and 2 flusterstorm is mandatory imo. I play 2 Counterspell as well in my 75 as additional answer to burn haymakers. It's a manageable matchup but whatever, losing to it is fine unless it's like 15% or higher of your metagame.

"Grixis Control" is basically just a color combination (Grixis) and a deck style (control). Trying to define an exact list is very hard compared a more established deck name like Czech Pile.

Grixis control can look like this: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/803622#paper (Ignore the obviously faulty deck name)

Or like this: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/670708#paper

Or it can look like everything in between. So I think if you want to have rewarding discussions about the differences or how to play against it, you need to be more specific.

bum_man
11-11-2017, 04:26 PM
"Grixis Control" is basically just a color combination (Grixis) and a deck style (control). Trying to define an exact list is very hard compared a more established deck name like Czech Pile.

Grixis control can look like this: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/803622#paper (Ignore the obviously faulty deck name)

Or like this: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/670708#paper

Or it can look like everything in between. So I think if you want to have rewarding discussions about the differences or how to play against it, you need to be more specific.

Yes, this is why I pointed out key strategic differences between that deck and Czech pile. Since the DTT era, Grixis control/Grixis Pyromancer has been commonly categorized as a control deck that use YP based control deck that leverages on cantrips and control elements like therapy, probe, and counters to maximize value off of YP. Well at least that's how understand it. Some grixis control/pyromancer lists even used to eschew deathrite shaman to stay strictly under grixis colors.

Nestalim
11-12-2017, 10:25 AM
Hello guys,

I have some trouble grinding other fair decks, like Shardless and Jund. I often lose to Jund due to Lili + P.fire being too oppressive for my board and hand, and to Shardless that does a lot of value.

What do you recommand in those match-up and how do you tweak your sideboard to help against those decks ?

ironclad8690
11-12-2017, 12:57 PM
Snapcaster Mage and Leovold are huge MVPs vs both of those decks. Just grind em out with Strixes + Removal and leverage your leovold/jaces to gain card advantage. K Command is always a huge beating vs Shardless too.

As for sideboarding, Pyro/Red Blast is awesome vs Shardless, and maybe a couple more removal spells for some maindeck discard, which becomes useless in the midgame.

Jund is kind of a different beast. The goal is to grind them out, so Surgical is a shoe-in to remove their Punishing Fires. Just grind em out with removal, leverage Snapcaster Mage to use the removal again, and you shouldn't have much trouble keeping your hand more full than theirs in the late game. Of course they can always Choke you, but you can operate on Jund colors somewhat. Instant speed snapcaster is good vs Lili on an empty board.

Toxic Deluge could be worth it vs these decks. Sometimes they over-commit with cascades and DRS and so forth.

MorphBerlin
11-12-2017, 03:23 PM
Your Win% agaisnt Shardless or Jund postboard should be 80+% in my mind. You do the same thing as them just better, Jund will loose games to inconsistency while shardless just has less efficient spells.

Nestalim
11-12-2017, 04:11 PM
Your Win% agaisnt Shardless or Jund postboard should be 80+% in my mind. You do the same thing as them just better, Jund will loose games to inconsistency while shardless just has less efficient spells.

I feel quite confidant against Shardless, but you clearly never test the Jund match-up. Main game is nearly impossible due to P.fire engine, and while we can shut it down after side with surgi, this is clearly inconsistent, as they can beat the card.
Jund is not incosistency at all, its average draw is incredibly powerfull and will just struggle to death/flood, which is less than 20% of the game. The rest is pure bomb that is hard to deal with.

FZA
11-12-2017, 04:54 PM
Your Win% agaisnt Shardless or Jund postboard should be 80+% in my mind. You do the same thing as them just better, Jund will loose games to inconsistency while shardless just has less efficient spells.

It's extremely rare for a deck to be 80% favored against another in Legacy, the only matchups that are that lopsided are things like Sneak and Show vs Lands, or Elves vs DnT.

Shardless and Jund are basically greedier versions of this deck that trade some disruption and consistency for even more card advantage. They're probably both favored against Czech Pile, especially Jund with the P fire engine. Shardless really depends on how many red blasts you play.

ozimek
11-13-2017, 04:29 PM
I just picked up this deck, after being homeless for quite some time following the top ban. I only played one local event with ~15 players, but I already like the grindy nature and the inevitabiliy feel that the CA engine gives.

Forgive me for asking some rather basic questions about the deck, but I would appreciate some thoughts from more experienced pilots to help me get into it.

Please explain to me why Marsh Casualties is such a popular sideboard card. Is it's main purpose to combat True Name Nemesis? Isn't Toxic Deluge simply better in most cases? Getting to pay the kicker seems pretty much impossible in most matchups, except perhaps vs Deathblade (again TNN..).


Coming from Miracles it is pretty scary to field the mana base that the (more or less) stock list I employed had. Only one Island and one Swamp seem pretty standard. It is really that difficult to squeeze in another Island for example?

Also I'm suprized that Sylvan Library isn't more popular. Too much of a tempo loss I suppose?

Thanks in advance.

Nestalim
11-13-2017, 05:36 PM
I just picked up this deck, after being homeless for quite some time following the top ban. I only played one local event with ~15 players, but I already like the grindy nature and the inevitabiliy feel that the CA engine gives.

Forgive me for asking some rather basic questions about the deck, but I would appreciate some thoughts from more experienced pilots to help me get into it.

Please explain to me why Marsh Casualties is such a popular sideboard card. Is it's main purpose to combat True Name Nemesis? Isn't Toxic Deluge simply better in most cases? Getting to pay the kicker seems pretty much impossible in most matchups, except perhaps vs Deathblade (again TNN..).


Coming from Miracles it is pretty scary to field the mana base that the (more or less) stock list I employed had. Only one Island and one Swamp seem pretty standard. It is really that difficult to squeeze in another Island for example?

Also I'm suprized that Sylvan Library isn't more popular. Too much of a tempo loss I suppose?

Thanks in advance.

Hello and welcome,

Marsh is obvsiously a good sideboard option to beat TNN, but it is also excellent in the mirror to catch opponent's strix and snap. It is also way easier to flashback than toxic deluge.

You can play a second island if you want, some list cut the second Volcanic Island, but this is gimmick in Hymn build, this is rather stronger if you play counterspell.

Sylvan Lib is quite popular in sideboard thought.

beta
11-19-2017, 08:19 PM
What do you guys think of the recent lists that eschews Gurmag Angler for extra strix/snapcasters. It might be an approach to grind out better but sometimes i find a dumb beat stick like angler does wonders, especially if we need a faster clock in game 1, e.g. combo etc. What are your views on this?

P.S Noah's list for the team constructed event looks sweet, with a md pyroblast and sb sylvan library.

tescrin
11-21-2017, 12:05 PM
EDIT:
Derp. You can read my quote below. I was thinking MC was instant speed.

Hanni
11-21-2017, 12:52 PM
@ozimek While Nestalim hit fringe points for Marsh Casualties; the real reason for it is that it's instant speed for Elves. Being able to wipe their board after they go deep for a hoof or in the middle of trying to Elf-Ball during a Glimpse, you can really munch them. It's also a huge difference between T2 and T3. T2 instant speed lets you be *very* prepared, and it means you can keep laying down 2-mana threats when you get to 4 mana, which again, is much easier compared to 5 mana. Elves is a defensive game a lot of the time, where you are mostly trying to not-lose ; since you're more heavily favored the longer the game goes.

Note: This is my experience with other decks and I assume it applies here. My record with the last deck I was maining was 13-0 in matches against elves, and this is how I approached it.

Similarly, Casualties is mildly relevant against TES, where if they go off T1 you can live with Casualties, but are more likely to die with Deluge. Lastly, D&T is also weak to it; in particularly in response to one of their Gimmicks. For instance, let's say you bait a Wisp by Pushing a Thalia or some such; when they Wisp to protect her, you can casualties and still kill both of them [cast when the trigger is on the stack.] It may not be true CA in this case (since you also spent a push), but little edges like that are a big deal.

Are you thinking of Zealous Persecution? Marsh Casualties is a sorcery...

The reason you see Casualties is because it doesn't kill your own dorks, since it affects target opponent's creatures only.

tescrin
11-21-2017, 02:18 PM
Are you thinking of Zealous Persecution? Marsh Casualties is a sorcery...

The reason you see Casualties is because it doesn't kill your own dorks, since it affects target opponent's creatures only.

Well shit, that's a couple months of rust on my brain. I usually opt for Persecution or GCharm, as I usually find BB to be worse than GB or WB. But yeah, total goof on my part. I'll edit the other post

MorphBerlin
11-24-2017, 03:12 PM
What do you guys think of the recent lists that eschews Gurmag Angler for extra strix/snapcasters. It might be an approach to grind out better but sometimes i find a dumb beat stick like angler does wonders, especially if we need a faster clock in game 1, e.g. combo etc. What are your views on this?

P.S Noah's list for the team constructed event looks sweet, with a md pyroblast and sb sylvan library.

I would never cut the Angler, I would rather play 2 but it's too hard to cast reliably

velya
11-27-2017, 06:21 AM
Hello everyone,

after being some kind of away for a long time (loam didnt feel right anymore after miracles was gone, had a lot of fun with Dragonstompy in the mean time) I found a new home that some kind felt familiar. This deck always reminded me of the value machine that aggro loam as for me, though it felt more flexible because of the blue cards. I played two smaller tournaments the last week, list was slightly different both times. This list felt more ok though:

Lands
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Badlands

Creatures

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

Instant/Sorceries

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Kolaghan's Command
1 Fatal Push
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge

Planeswalker

2 Jace, the Mind sculptor
1 Liliana, the Last Hope


//Sideboard
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
1 Fatal Push
1 Liliana of the veil
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Marsh Casualties
2 Pyroblast
1 Murderous Cut
1 Izzet Staticcaster


Main-Deck felt pretty good so far. Maybe the landbase needs a bit tuning, but I wanted to play my expeditions and I think that most of the times it was not the lands, that I drew that were wrong but me who fetched wrong. So I learned a lot about this deck is planning in advance, and trying to fetch accordingly. This does also mean that you take into consideration what your opponent might be playing with (Choke, Moon-effects, Wasteland). This is a big issue for me, because I always try to play fast and not taking my time to think everything through.

Some Ideas about the maindeck:Liliana, the Last Hope was my choice for the mirror, grixis delver and DnT. It never felt that good having Liliana of the veil against those decks. Moreover Liliana, the Last Hope does win games where Liliana of the veil does not (one could argue she does, but only through card-advantage, which I do not count here). I do not like Angler (I am a bit special about Artworks and Cards I like :D), tested Tasigur which was bad against Karakas and also some more Point-Removal which was often not good enough against dnt. Liliana, the Last Hope was often a Card my opponent had to deal with or lose to, especially when she is protected by a Baleful Strix. A short note here: It's not always that easy to chose a mode on here :D So maybe this is something to practise as well: Where do I +1 and where do I -2. In the end, I always thought I may miss a big beater, but never really happened.
I also thought about cutting 1 or 2 Force of Will and put those into the sideboard, adding more Hymn to Tourach or Pointremoval. Where I play there is often something like reanimator, Storm and also some miracle-lists, so I decided still leaving them in the main list.

The sideboard is another issue, I am not quite happy with that. Vendilion Clique felt great, one my some games and was quite flexible. Also the blasts where good. Faerie Macabre is some kind of lucky charm for me, it one me several games in other decks. Here it might be not the best card, since the only synergy is with the Kolaghan's Command and
Liliana, the Last Hope.. I am still not sure to cut it. What I felt - at least on saturday- was, that I had too much point-Removal. Bolt is again because of Dnt. Lost some games against Mirran Crusader, but maybe its not worth it, while Lightning bolt, is pretty flexibel though. Maybe the Murderous cut will go for a blue elemental blast, but I am not sure. I guess the cut is not that good since a lot of fair decks will bring in grave hate.

Short overview about the matches I had:
1. tournament
0-2 vs. Dark Maverick
1-2 vs. Grixis Delver
2-1 vs. Zombardement
2-1 vs. Goblins)

2. tournament
2:1 Pox
0:2 punishing maverick (lost first round because of a missed Leovold-Trigger...)
2:1 merfolk
2:1 dark depths
2:1 miracle standstill brew

I hope this may help somebody. It helped me thinking everything through again so far :D

I am always open for comments and suggestions.

supachai
11-29-2017, 02:06 AM
Hey folks, just a heads up that I updated some minor info in the Primer (talked about some of the changing card choices, matchups, and added Noah Walker's first place list). I haven't been playing Czech too often as of late but I've seen the recent decklists and they are trending away from Counterspell in favor of Hymns and a slightly more diverse removal suite involving Edicts, Lilianas, and sometimes Red Blast.

I'm curious in particular about the switch to proactive disruption in the form of Hymn. Anyone have a concise theory on why Hymns are stronger now than they were before? Is it to out-grind the mirror? Any feedback from more recent/experienced players would be appreciated!

Nestalim
11-29-2017, 09:35 AM
Hey folks, just a heads up that I updated some minor info in the Primer (talked about some of the changing card choices, matchups, and added Noah Walker's first place list). I haven't been playing Czech too often as of late but I've seen the recent decklists and they are trending away from Counterspell in favor of Hymns and a slightly more diverse removal suite involving Edicts, Lilianas, and sometimes Red Blast.

I'm curious in particular about the switch to proactive disruption in the form of Hymn. Anyone have a concise theory on why Hymns are stronger now than they were before? Is it to out-grind the mirror? Any feedback from more recent/experienced players would be appreciated!

It is stronger than Counterspell against the popular deck of the Meta, aka Eldrazi and D&T. Being proactive is also important as playing 4c Pile, because you need to clock your opponent, so the interaction with Snap is more nuts, especially against combo decks.

I am not sure it is better in the mirror thought, as Counterspell to be a worse grinder card but it is far stronger in the late game, when players tend to topdeck their ressource.

Regardless I won't say it is stronger, but better in the current meta. I do like Counterspell against Jace.deck more than Hymn.

TheKingslayer
12-06-2017, 03:53 AM
It is stronger than Counterspell against the popular deck of the Meta, aka Eldrazi and D&T. Being proactive is also important as playing 4c Pile, because you need to clock your opponent, so the interaction with Snap is more nuts, especially against combo decks.

I am not sure it is better in the mirror thought, as Counterspell to be a worse grinder card but it is far stronger in the late game, when players tend to topdeck their ressource.

Regardless I won't say it is stronger, but better in the current meta. I do like Counterspell against Jace.deck more than Hymn.

I think this conclusion was settled two to three months ago. It is also a safer investment to drop a hymn on a combo player's head than try to hold up a clunky UU for cspell. You can't really advance your gameplan when holding up that much mana. The nature of the deck is typically more sorcery speed and running hymn, snap, hymn followed by Leo is pretty much gg against anyone. Also, hymn will randomly beat things you have no business winning against. I run 2 hymns and 1 cspell main. It's great to run into cspell after the initial dust has settled. I've racked up a couple 5-0s on modo and nabbed 5th at a 50 person tourney in October (undefeated in the swiss and losing to burn in the quarter finals.) I also run more bolts than most, as bolts are better for racing TNN and against planeswalkers (two weaknesses of the deck.)

supachai
12-08-2017, 06:55 PM
I think this conclusion was settled two to three months ago. It is also a safer investment to drop a hymn on a combo player's head than try to hold up a clunky UU for cspell. You can't really advance your gameplan when holding up that much mana. The nature of the deck is typically more sorcery speed and running hymn, snap, hymn followed by Leo is pretty much gg against anyone. Also, hymn will randomly beat things you have no business winning against. I run 2 hymns and 1 cspell main. It's great to run into cspell after the initial dust has settled. I've racked up a couple 5-0s on modo and nabbed 5th at a 50 person tourney in October (undefeated in the swiss and losing to burn in the quarter finals.) I also run more bolts than most, as bolts are better for racing TNN and against planeswalkers (two weaknesses of the deck.)

Thanks for the replies guys, that makes sense. I can definitely see situations where Hymn will just tear decks part. Do you have your list, Kingslayer? Having Bolts and at least one CS sounds like kinda where I want to be.

TheKingslayer
12-14-2017, 04:23 AM
Thanks for the replies guys, that makes sense. I can definitely see situations where Hymn will just tear decks part. Do you have your list, Kingslayer? Having Bolts and at least one CS sounds like kinda where I want to be.

It's nothing spectacularly different than most lists. Just a little more bolt action. I definitely had reservations on no big finishers when I first picked up the deck, but it hasn't been a problem. Bolt allows you to race, is an answer for Mirran Crusader, planeswalkers, Magus of the Moon...I also wouldn't leave home without 2 Decays. I tried a list with only pushes and bolts and I missed decay a lot. Have fun, and I hope you find a list that feels right to you.

Lands
4x polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Bloodstained mire
3x Underground Sea
3x volcanic island
2x Tropical Island
1x Badlands
1x Island
1x Swamp

Creatures
4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Snapcaster Mage
3x Baleful Strix
2x Leovold

Planeswalkers
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4X Force of Will
3x Lightning Bolt
1x Fatal Push
2x Abrupt Decay
2x K Command
2x Hymn to Tourach
1x Counterspell
2x Thoughtseize
1x Inquisition of Kozilek


SB
1x pyroblast
1x REB
1x Hydroblast
2x Flusterstorm
1x Lilly, the Last Hope
1x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Marsh Casualties
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Pithing Needle
2x Diabolic Edict
1x Hymn to Tourach

xix
12-15-2017, 11:05 AM
Has anyone added Search for Azcanta and liked it, Having trouble finding the space personally.

Raizen884
12-15-2017, 01:55 PM
I think Search for Azcanta is much more suited for reactive controls like Miracles, in here it just is ok, since it doesn't fit that well when you want to be proactive, what Czech Pile usually wants to be.

from Cairo
12-15-2017, 04:29 PM
Agreed. I tried Search for Azcanta earlier in testing and didn’t think it was ideal for this shell. I like Sylvan Library and Liliana, the Last Hope much better in the permanent-based recurring source of card quality/advantage.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

eyeownyu
12-24-2017, 03:20 AM
Hi everyone I'm visiting from the grixis delver forums. I'm planning on playing delver at the upcoming GP and was wondering if you all could give me some tips. I know you guys are favored against grixis delver, but what are some recommendations for play patterns and card choices? I'm currently playing a pretty stock Bob huang list (2 pierce, 2 tnn, 3 y. pyro)

I've been playing against my brother on pile and am having terrible results pre and post board. I need some help! Thanks!

Agrippa91
12-24-2017, 06:42 AM
Hi everyone I'm visiting from the grixis delver forums. I'm planning on playing delver at the upcoming GP and was wondering if you all could give me some tips. I know you guys are favored against grixis delver, but what are some recommendations for play patterns and card choices? I'm currently playing a pretty stock Bob huang list (2 pierce, 2 tnn, 3 y. pyro)

I've been playing against my brother on pile and am having terrible results pre and post board. I need some help! Thanks!

I think there's a lot of work you can do on your own, especially since you already have a play partner who provides insight to the deck you're trying to beat. Now the premise of this of course is that both of you are interested in making the other person a better player, not to score virtual points on the who's-the-better-player board:

First of you should talk to him what he thinks his advantages and disadvantages in the matchup are. And don't brush the things he says off with “you'll win anyways” but take them seriously. Are there any cards either of you feel oblieged to force g1? Under which circumstances?

With this knowledge you should talk about boarding. Are there any cards the opponent is happy to see g2 because he feels like they have no significant inpact. Before you board any other cards you should always ask yourself “do I want forces in g2+3”? In other words are there cards that if they resolve they put me behind a significant amount?
Do any of you have any supposed trump cards for the matchup? What does the other person think about that card?

You can then jam some games with open hands, going and talking about play patterns, e.g. “I feel like I can play around x here because y.” or I'm ahead now, but I fear x from your side so I'm trying to dig for y.”.

Only then imo is it actually useful to jam some more games besides the initial first few where you get to know a deck for the first time.
If you have the necessary equipment you can also record one or two matches and rewatch it while going over your thought process and play patterns.

I can promise you that after this your understanding of the matchup will be significantly better, it'll help you much a lot more than jamming 50 games only to realize “oh shit, maybe cabal therapy IS bad in this matchup!”.

Then you can post specific questions like “do you think any side should keep in Fow? In my experience I found that... ”
You're far more likely to get answers for these specific questions because everyone can discuss this specific card/scenario throughly.

Edit: I just saw you posted some interesting questions in the grixis forum, why not repeat them here and get another point of view?

eyeownyu
12-24-2017, 10:54 AM
I think there's a lot of work you can do on your own, especially since you already have a play partner who provides insight to the deck you're trying to beat. Now the premise of this of course is that both of you are interested in making the other person a better player, not to score virtual points on the who's-the-better-player board:

First of you should talk to him what he thinks his advantages and disadvantages in the matchup are. And don't brush the things he says off with “you'll win anyways” but take them seriously. Are there any cards either of you feel oblieged to force g1? Under which circumstances?

With this knowledge you should talk about boarding. Are there any cards the opponent is happy to see g2 because he feels like they have no significant inpact. Before you board any other cards you should always ask yourself “do I want forces in g2+3”? In other words are there cards that if they resolve they put me behind a significant amount?
Do any of you have any supposed trump cards for the matchup? What does the other person think about that card?

You can then jam some games with open hands, going and talking about play patterns, e.g. “I feel like I can play around x here because y.” or I'm ahead now, but I fear x from your side so I'm trying to dig for y.”.

Only then imo is it actually useful to jam some more games besides the initial first few where you get to know a deck for the first time.
If you have the necessary equipment you can also record one or two matches and rewatch it while going over your thought process and play patterns.

I can promise you that after this your understanding of the matchup will be significantly better, it'll help you much a lot more than jamming 50 games only to realize “oh shit, maybe cabal therapy IS bad in this matchup!”.

Then you can post specific questions like “do you think any side should keep in Fow? In my experience I found that... ”
You're far more likely to get answers for these specific questions because everyone can discuss this specific card/scenario throughly.

Edit: I just saw you posted some interesting questions in the grixis forum, why not repeat them here and get another point of view?
I do ask all of those questions with my play partner and we have answers to them, but the point was to get other people's opinions because we are just two dudes playing legacy and could have incorrect thought processes about the matchup.

As of right now obviously the hardest thing to get passed is their card advantage with strix and snapcaster mage. Sure, I know the game plan is to tempo them out, clearing the way for angler and delver to attack, but he usually stabilizes and I'm stuck top decking against his 2-3 cards in hand still. I feel like force is fine because strix and snap 2-41 me anyways, but I haven't been having good results both with force in the deck and without it.

And honestly I thought I asked pretty much the same questions in the grixis forum, but maybe not. I'm just trying to get multiple perspectives on the matchup and opinions on boarding. Getting the point if view from the opponent is great because often times we get one sided and think our matchup is great or terrible and just spew out cookie cutter advice that is obvious but not very helpful (ie angler and tnn are your best threats, or you need to tempo them out)

Thanks for the response.

Agrippa91
12-24-2017, 10:38 PM
Please share your opinions on different cards with us. We all very likely have an opinion on them anyways and it's a good way to get people talking.
Like you complain about vague answers but that's exactly what you get when you ask vague questions!
Besides people tend to get tunnelvisioned when e.g. a certain pro says something and everybody repeats it over and over, making it sound true though it isn't. I e.g. remember very well when everybody in the grixis thread echoed Noah Walker (who is still a great player)in stating that cabal therapies are good against shardless bug. He ended up correcting himself eventually, but it just proved that people sometimes automatically allign success with perfection.
Im case you don't know: Bob Huang made the grixis list you're playing to combat czech pile, claiming to be of not successfulll then at least content about the results.

Now let's e.g. hear your opinion on FoWs, Dazes and spell pierces in this matchup postboard. I think that's a good starting point since it would give away a lot of sideboard slots were we to cut one of these completely. And try to be more specific than “FoW is good when it resolves” or Daze is dead in the very late stages of the game, we ll know that.
Instead try to answer questions like “are you generally able to daze impactfull spells?” or “do you think FoW is save to play postboard or do pyroblast and flusterstorm provide too much blow-out potential?”.Also “is spell perce generally worth it considering the opponent can play around it by playing creatures when low on untapped mana?”

Agrippa91
12-24-2017, 10:40 PM
Please share your opinions on different cards with us. We all very likely have an opinion on them anyways and it's a good way to get people talking.
You e.g. complain about vague answers but that's exactly what you get when you ask vague questions!
Besides people tend to get tunnelvisioned when e.g. a certain pro says something and everybody repeats it over and over, making it sound true though it isn't. I e.g. remember very well when everybody in the grixis thread echoed Noah Walker (who is still a great player)in stating that cabal therapies are good against shardless bug. He ended up correcting himself eventually, but it just proved that people sometimes automatically allign success with perfection.
Im case you don't know: Bob Huang made the grixis list you're playing to combat czech pile, claiming to be of not successfulll then at least content about the results.

Now let's e.g. hear your opinion on FoWs, Dazes and spell pierces in this matchup postboard. I think that's a good starting point since it would give away a lot of sideboard slots were we to cut one of these completely. You already gave the reason to keep in FoW, but try to think a bit further. We all know that Daze is dead in the very late stages of the game, but what about the turns where it's impactful?

Try to answer questions like “am I generally able to daze impactfull spells?” or “do I think FoW is save to play postboard or do pyroblast and flusterstorm provide too much blow-out potential?”.Also “is spell perce generally worth it considering the opponent can play around it by playing creatures when low on untapped mana?”

eyeownyu
12-25-2017, 06:27 PM
Please share your opinions on different cards with us. We all very likely have an opinion on them anyways and it's a good way to get people talking.
You e.g. complain about vague answers but that's exactly what you get when you ask vague questions!
Besides people tend to get tunnelvisioned when e.g. a certain pro says something and everybody repeats it over and over, making it sound true though it isn't. I e.g. remember very well when everybody in the grixis thread echoed Noah Walker (who is still a great player)in stating that cabal therapies are good against shardless bug. He ended up correcting himself eventually, but it just proved that people sometimes automatically allign success with perfection.
Im case you don't know: Bob Huang made the grixis list you're playing to combat czech pile, claiming to be of not successfulll then at least content about the results.

Now let's e.g. hear your opinion on FoWs, Dazes and spell pierces in this matchup postboard. I think that's a good starting point since it would give away a lot of sideboard slots were we to cut one of these completely. You already gave the reason to keep in FoW, but try to think a bit further. We all know that Daze is dead in the very late stages of the game, but what about the turns where it's impactful?

Try to answer questions like “am I generally able to daze impactfull spells?” or “do I think FoW is save to play postboard or do pyroblast and flusterstorm provide too much blow-out potential?”.Also “is spell perce generally worth it considering the opponent can play around it by playing creatures when low on untapped mana?”
Ok you know what, just forget I even asked. Apparently my questions and concerns about the matchup aren't intelligent or in depth enough for you.

Thanks for your time Czech pile thread.

from Cairo
12-25-2017, 10:05 PM
I don't have much insight for the Delver side of the match up. As Czech in this match up, I'm looking to answer the first threat, make land drops and get to the mid-late game where (if castable) our topdecks are more powerful. My guess would be that as Delver you want to doing everything you can to interact in those early turns of the game - killing DRS and/or keeping us off splash sources. As the game gets long and grindy it gets out of reach.

Postboard, I'm trimming Force of Will, Thoughtseize, and Jace. I'm bringing in more removal and cards that play to the board REB/Pyro, Liliana the Last Hope and Toxic Deluge. I like Hymn better than Thoughtseize in this MU - getting a 2 for 1 and the cards that are hardest for us to interact with are slower for Delver to deploy - Gurmag/TNN.

I don't claim to be super well versed in either deck, but my perspective is that Delver is trying to win entirely through combat with a somewhat limited number of threats. I'm looking to keep hands with several land and removal spells, the other elements of the Czech deck can show up as the game goes on. Hands with a bunch of 2-3cc spells or that are very light on land/reliant on DRS are less appealing.

CookedChestnuts
12-26-2017, 06:02 AM
Hey guys,

With a recent upswing of Miracles on Magic Online, I'm playing this matchup a lot more. And also losing a lot more. Other than the strategy of completely changing my maindeck and dropping Force of Wills and playing a maindeck Pyro or two, how are you guys going about winning this matchup? It feels like one of the few decks that I'm also consistently losing to post board.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/player/Swagohod

Lists are pretty similar, but this is what I normally play.

btm10
12-26-2017, 11:37 AM
If you want to stay in the 4c archetype while improving your Miracles matchup, I'd recommend shifting from the midrange value skeleton you're working with back towards the control skeleton the deck started out with. Hymn is a great tempo play against Miracles, but if you allow the game to drag on they'll bury you in card advantage from Predict and Azcanta. Kolaghan's Command is similar because it's expensive and you can't reliably use the Raise Dead mode because of Plow and Terminus. If you return to the Divining Top-era lists, you can set up with your own counters and card draw (Counterspell, Spell Snare, Night's Whisper/Search for Azcanta) and force them to play a control mirror where you both have must answer threats, but you're more threat dense, which is how 4c historically beat Miracles (before they went back to a heavy nonbasic hate+Entreat strategy to even the matchup up). What you're playing now is a controlling midrange deck, which is historically the worst thing to do against a control deck.

Agrippa91
12-26-2017, 12:47 PM
Well, looks like I drove somebody away, sry about that guys. I just had hoped for a bit deeper questions worth discussing instead of the general questions you can already find on every 3rd page of the grixis primer.
Back to the pile vs (grixis)delver matchup, I'll just post some opinions from the grixis side here, would be cool if you'd post whether you agree or disagree:

As Grixis I'll leave in all my dazes. Approx. half of your cards are 241s that basically replace themselves, all you need is infinite mana it seems. I therefore also think pile should play into it by playing its less important spells when tapping out. If you instead choose to play around it by always leaving open a mana you'll likely lose unless you have a drs or 4+ lands already.
Often times you'll also be forced to play a pyroblast or fluster to defend your spells in which case I can just daze the spell you try to resolve.
On the Grixis side I don't want to daze anythinf that doesn't afgect the board, especially cantrips.
The ultimate “value-daze” is when I get to take back a land that I don't actually need anymore(I feel very confident operating on 3 lands or even 2 in case of an active shaman). This means that I get to fetch away the land with a future brainstorm, effectively making daze a 0-mana counter that cantrips.

I'll cut all my FoWs postboard regardless of your build. First of all the potential to just lose to one of your 1-mana counters is huge. Then I also don't think most of your 241s don't have 2 sides I actually care about. Take e.g. the random.cards you get off leovold or strix or the card I chose to discard off K-command. the body of snapcaster is something I also find neglegible since it doesn't really trade with any of our threats except pyromamcer who generates value anyways every turn he goes unanswered(though I'll be careful not to run into chump+bolt).
The only 241 that really puts me behind is a eesolved K-command that kills one of my creatures and brings back a creature. That's why I have 2 spell pierces in addition to bringing in flusterstorms. A lily that eats my only creature is also quite terrifying.

I wouldn't leave in FoWs if I were you because of said 1-mana counters plus pyroblasts that come in against strix, snapcaster and leovold already. Though it's probably more “correct” from your side to leave in FoWs because you have enough card-advantage to even things out while you get more interactions in the early turns. I'd probably leave them in against the stifle build because you otherwise can get locked out of the gane fairly easily when I draw right.

Hymns are fine against grixis: They lose value later, but that should be fine because that's where you want the game to go.
Early on they're only really good when the rest of your hand has lots of cheap removal (no, snapcaster doesn't count), otherwise doing nothing tht affects the bord on t2 or t3 can seriously put you behind. Every card that affects the board directly nd costs 1 or 2 mana is just better than that, I'd use hymns merely as “filler” once you have brought in all the cards you want.

Bitterblossom seems to be a trump card against pile, I'd rate it even higher than sylvan library if you play delver. Its main advantage is dodging removal besides decay which is hard for you to cast against a deck that has wastelands, a desire to kill drs on sight and potentially stifle.

Speaking of which: My opinion is not shared by everybody but I think that stifle is a very good card against pile since it shifts the focus away from “I play creatures, you play removal that sometimes even 241s”. You're instead forced to play this subgame of “do I habe enough lands?”. There've been numerous times where I've won against opponents that lost with a handful of removal spells they were unable to cast. Irl I had someone show me then how he boarded out FoW while leaving flusterstorm in the sb (bug control in this case).
That's just a big, big advantage of playing a proactive deck: As the defensive you see your starting hand and (unless you have the nuts)can't say “this hand is definitely good”. Grixis already has a very diverse threat base that can't all be answered by a single card besides deluge and terminus. Adding the mana-denial plan only adds to this diversity, making it more likely you have answers that don't fit my questions.
You simply don't know whether my hand is full pf threats or full of wastelands, stifles, and a bolt for your shaman.
And even in the lategame stifle is fine by countering snapcaster and sometimes flusterstorm or planeswalker triggers while negating brainstorm shuffles (again by countering the fetches, make sure to stack the lands you want to shuffle away correctly, e.g. by puttimg another fetch on top just in case).

I'm only reasonably content with new lili from the grixos sb: sje's a bit expensive and doesn't do much besides getting burned after she minuses unless there's a strix or snapcaster out that she can kill.
Speaking of killing these: I'll often times only kill strixes when I have a creature that wants to attack so you don't have a chance to get it back again so quick.

Has any of you guys played against Winter Orb? That card seems... weird when you think that K-commamd kills it, but it seems great otherwise. Any stories you want to share?

@CookedChestnuts: A good adaption imo would be shaving the 3rd k-command for another decay(search, counterbalance). K-commamd is often times quote bad against miracles since most modes besides rarely matter(they rarely put your creatires into your gy.)
I strongly disagree that dropping a FoW or two would make that matchup any better. FoW is quite strong against the few (hatd to interact)cards that miracles actually cares about like mentor, jace and search.
A telltale sign of how strong the card is against miracles is the fact that it's a card people keep in when playing the miracle mirror despite the tons of pyroblasts and flusterstorms floating around in this matchup.
Acordimg to the new MiraclesPrimer by WhiteFaces that's still true even after the sdt-ban, especially now that people play cb again.

rlesko
12-26-2017, 04:35 PM
From the delver side of things- I think the gameplan changes entirely if you're on stifle or not

If you play stifle, you most definitely keep daze. With wastelands AND stifles you can reliably keep Czech Pile under 4 mana which means daze / pierce are still super live.

If you don't play stifle, only 4 wastelands are not reliable enough to keep dazes and pierces live IMO.

I always like keeping some number of FoW in when I play delver (I play RUG tho not Grixis) no matter what. I value the ability to win counterwars over key spells and the tempo swings that force provides can be enough to win the game.

Agrippa91
12-26-2017, 07:31 PM
From the delver side of things- I think the gameplan changes entirely if you're on stifle or not

If you play stifle, you most definitely keep daze. With wastelands AND stifles you can reliably keep Czech Pile under 4 mana which means daze / pierce are still super live.

If you don't play stifle, only 4 wastelands are not reliable enough to keep dazes and pierces live IMO.

I always like keeping some number of FoW in when I play delver (I play RUG tho not Grixis) no matter what. I value the ability to win counterwars over key spells and the tempo swings that force provides can be enough to win the game.

which delver deck without stifle have you played? Are you playing the goyf build in RUG or the one that can go pseudo-shroud postboard?

rlesko
12-27-2017, 10:47 AM
I was trying to address your questions on the grixis delver match up, which may or may not run stifle. I've only played that deck a few times and I hated it. I have much more experience with RUG.

I've never played RUG delver without stifle. I've played the hooting mandrills version and the goyf version, and I'm partial towards playing Goyfs main and TNN in the sideboard.

Grixis delver to me is a weird cross between a delver and midrange deck. The dazes feel much weaker than in RUG. It seems the way grixis tries to beat you guys is to go more midrange than tempo. Seems like a losing proposition to me, but IDK

Agrippa91
12-27-2017, 12:17 PM
I was trying to address your questions on the grixis delver match up, which may or may not run stifle. I've only played that deck a few times and I hated it. I have much more experience with RUG.

I've never played RUG delver without stifle. I've played the hooting mandrills version and the goyf version, and I'm partial towards playing Goyfs main and TNN in the sideboard.

Grixis delver to me is a weird cross between a delver and midrange deck. The dazes feel much weaker than in RUG. It seems the way grixis tries to beat you guys is to go more midrange than tempo. Seems like a losing proposition to me, but IDK

But, but, ... it has deathrite shaman!

On a more serious note: How bad, good or decent do you think that the goyfs are? After all you're not able to board into a pseudo-shroud version with only 4 mongeese and 2 TNNs, do you still keep in the delvers (I think I would).

rlesko
12-27-2017, 02:56 PM
Deathrite? Card sucks... :tongue:

I think the goyfs are great TBH. I've been out of the legacy meta lately, but a couple months ago the most common removal suite for CP was like...1 push, 1 decay, and a bunch of other stuff that goyf wouldn't die to. Then some edicts in the SB - so I wasn't even bringing in true names. And I was keeping Delvers in.

Goyf was always great because by the time I played him I already countered a baleful strix and / or planeswalker so hes crashing in for 5+ power.

I seem to be on my own with these opinions, most RUG players would rather just play a monkey instead :shrug: I have played that version but its way too cute for me. And my goyfs are foil so I'm not dropping them for a $0.25 replacement :laugh:

HSCK
12-28-2017, 07:26 PM
This White variant (http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD39743S/) is kind of interesting. Is the upside on SFM and StP worth trading out Kommand? I do think having access to Gideon could be really good.

btm10
12-29-2017, 02:11 PM
Isn't that just Deathblade? I agree that the white Lingering Souls variant is interesting though.

Agrippa91
12-29-2017, 05:32 PM
Gideon with just 3 White sources in the entire deck? I guess it's just for control mirrors in that case. Still, it's a sb-card with lost potential since that planeswalker does a fairly good job at being a nonblastable Jace vs. red aggressive decks.

HSCK
12-29-2017, 09:33 PM
Esper Pile

Creatures: 12
1 Gurmag Angler
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman

Planeswalkers: 3
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Spells: 23
3 Lingering Souls
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Fatal Push
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

Lands: 21
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

Sideboard: 15
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Hydroblast
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Disenchant
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist


This is my Esper variant right now, but haven't had a lot of reps with it.

Fatal
12-30-2017, 05:43 AM
Does the whole power from Czech Pile is based on K.Command which can be recycled with Snapcasters?
Czech Pile is DTB thanks to this card: it fits perfectly against meta filled by artifacts like equips, vials, chalices etc. Why we thinking on step back to death blade?

Are miracles are such a problem? Bump Liliana count and Hymn trimming removal, or replace some removal for more direct dmg to fight walkers better, we can also put deadbore.

HSCK
12-30-2017, 10:23 AM
Does the whole power from Czech Pile is based on K.Command which can be recycled with Snapcasters?
Czech Pile is DTB thanks to this card: it fits perfectly against meta filled by artifacts like equips, vials, chalices etc. Why we thinking on step back to death blade?

Are miracles are such a problem? Bump Liliana count and Hymn trimming removal, or replace some removal for more direct dmg to fight walkers better, we can also put deadbore.

If there's more Miracles and other Pile decks I def want to be on Lingering Souls and Gideon. SFM in Pile seems worse than Mentor or Deathblade.

Shaka1333
01-04-2018, 03:13 PM
The white splash is definitely interesting because Swords to Plowshares is the card the deck misses the most.

I personnaly tried this version a little ( http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/decks/showdeck.php?ref=556068 ) but the Plains and Karakas were definitely too much of a stretch for the manabase especially against Delver when one plays Baleful Strix, Leovold and Abrupt Decay.

Karakas is extremely powerful with Tasigur and Leovold (almost game in the mirror and great against a lot of decks).

PhilLesh
01-05-2018, 10:54 AM
Thought on Baleful Strix vs. Sneak and Show (and variants)? Seems decent to me but nothing super impressive. I get that it blocks both Emrakul (if survives the annihilator trigger) and Griselbrand, but it seems slow and not super impactful. Does boarding out 1-3 seem reasonable? Curious on others' perspectives.

AsianGuy1137
01-08-2018, 01:52 AM
Thought on Baleful Strix vs. Sneak and Show (and variants)? Seems decent to me but nothing super impressive. I get that it blocks both Emrakul (if survives the annihilator trigger) and Griselbrand, but it seems slow and not super impactful. Does boarding out 1-3 seem reasonable? Curious on others' perspectives.
I'm new to the deck, but I've been watching Joe Lossett stream his take on Pile, and he was boarding out all his copies of Strix for more spell interaction against Sneak and Show variants. I don't know if this was something he was just experimenting with or something he concluded was correct from experience/theory, but it's worth testing out.

On that note, Joe Lossett went 7-1 on day 1 at GP Santa Clara with his Zenith Pile list (can be found in his twitch videos) which runs 1 of GSZ and Meren. Meren being impervious to blast and being able to return creatures during your turn with no mana investment makes it an interesting choice as a Kess-like threats for the grindy matchups. Has anyone else tried anything like this before? Any thoughts on his specific list?

m0ller
01-08-2018, 03:08 PM
Kess, dissident mage!!

This card is insane - But I tried it as a supplement to the grinding part of the deck. How come, that this mage can cast instants in opponents turn on modo? I guess that this is an error or is there some kind wording I am not aware of?

AsianGuy1137
01-08-2018, 05:18 PM
Kess, dissident mage!!

This card is insane - But I tried it as a supplement to the grinding part of the deck. How come, that this mage can cast instants in opponents turn on modo? I guess that this is an error or is there some kind wording I am not aware of?

I meant GSZ and/or Meren specifically. I'm aware that people have tried Kess hence why I referred to Meren as a Kess-like substitute.

The card is bugged on MODO. It should only let you cast cards on your turn.

HSCK
01-08-2018, 06:36 PM
That is a really interesting wrinkle, though I'd be more tempted to try Rashmi.

AsianGuy1137
01-08-2018, 07:25 PM
That is a really interesting wrinkle, though I'd be more tempted to try Rashmi.

I think Rashmi would be worse than Kess or Meren. It's blue so it can still be blasted. It doesn't do anything the turn it comes down so you need to untap with it for value. You need to commit mana for its ability to trigger while Meren doesn't. It also dies to bolt, which is one of its biggest failings. Neither Kess nor Meren die to bolt so they're much less of a liability against Delver.

oarsman
01-09-2018, 02:04 AM
I tried Kess but I was under the impression that you could cast things on both turns. Somehow I misread the card on paper the same way that MTGO seems to. Given how it actually works, I don't think it is good. Meren is worthless is several matchups and great in others. There was a time where I was looking for non-blue planeswalkers to fit in the deck, and I couldn't decide on one to try. This basically serves that function: a non-blastable source of long term advantage (it does look bad against Karakas though). It's really nice that you get a guy back during end step, instead of having to wait until the next upkeep.

AsianGuy1137
01-09-2018, 02:23 AM
I tried Kess but I was under the impression that you could cast things on both turns. Somehow I misread the card on paper the same way that MTGO seems to. Given how it actually works, I don't think it is good. Meren is worthless is several matchups and great in others. There was a time where I was looking for non-blue planeswalkers to fit in the deck, and I couldn't decide on one to try. This basically serves that function: a non-blastable source of long term advantage (it does look bad against Karakas though). It's really nice that you get a guy back during end step, instead of having to wait until the next upkeep.

Thanks for sharing. I've seen people try Chandra as a non-blue walker that can accrue advantage. Punishing Dack pilots seem to swear by her as a one-of. Any thoughts?

malekith
01-09-2018, 08:58 AM
Hello friends,

Have you seen the Tomas Mar's interesting list, winner of Legacy MKM Series Frankfurt :

http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/coverage-mkm-series-frankfurt-2018-legacy/


He played 3 x Inquisition of Kozilek in the mainboard
No basic lands
No Surgical Extraction in the SB

:eek:

Misersoneof
01-09-2018, 08:32 PM
Hello friends,

Have you seen the Tomas Mar's interesting list, winner of Legacy MKM Series Frankfurt :

http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/coverage-mkm-series-frankfurt-2018-legacy/


He played 3 x Inquisition of Kozilek in the mainboard
No basic lands
No Surgical Extraction in the SB

:eek:

Seems like he was planning on grinding against fair decks and it paid off. With no basics and no Turn 0 gy hate he seems really weak to moon and reanimator. He must've dodged a lot of the unfair matchups leading up to Top 8.

DemolitionColorScheme
01-10-2018, 07:12 PM
So, after having been gone from MTG for about 3 years - I've returned and have been playtesting Pile for quite a while now and this weekend placed first in our monthly Dutch Legacy Event (GameForce, Eindhoven). Mind you, it was just a 22-man event, but still. I wanted to take some time and share my decklist and findings.

Decklist for the GameForce Legacy Event of the 7th of January:

LANDS [20]:
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire

CREATURES [14]:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

INSTANTS [16]:
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict

SORCERIES [8]:
4 Ponder
2 Hymn To Tourach
1 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

PLANESWALKERS [2]:
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

SIDEBOARD [15]:
1 Thoughtseize
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Sylvan Library
1 Marsh Casualties
2 Surgical Extraction

----------------------------------------

The list isn't that groundbreaking, but it suited my playstyle and needs. I was running 1 Pyroblast main when I was playtesting and while I loved it when it hit, I realized that the meta in Eindhoven was always rather offbeat and I would've hated having 1 dead card game 1 in a lot of matchups, so I switched it out for a Thoughtseize - having a shot at keeping a Thoughtseize hand when going first in a blind meta is at times rather rewarding. I was struggling with going to 3 Hymn To Tourach main, but decided that the 2/1 split would probably pay off nicely and moved one Seize from the board to the main and replaced the 2nd copy of it in the SB with an additional Hymn.

First off: Hymn is a hell of a card when trying to constantly two-for-one your opponent and I was sometimes chuckling on the inside when firing off double Hymn and then going Snapcaster-Hymn as a follow up. The game is over, on the spot. Resolve a Jace afterwards and you might as well go out for a sandwich and let Jace take the reigns, 'cause no one besides you is winning that game. This is the sole reason I prefer the proactive version of Pile over the Counterspell-based version. I just like getting in there with Snapcaster early and I feel Hymn fits our gameplan (2-for-1's-all-day-long) better, though it is at times a bummer that it's dead late game. But, that's the pay-off for consistency.

With 2 hours of sleep under my belt, I get at it ...

----------------------------------------

[MATCHUPS]

- vs. Thopter / Tezz [2-1]
Game 1: I'm on the draw; he busts out a Challice with a Tomb on turn 1 and I'm left staring at a hand of 1CMC cards, I never find a way to cantrip myself towards answers. That's Legacy.
Game 2: Deathrite, Hymn, Hymn, Snapcaster->Hymn. He resolves a Challice and I'm staring at Abrupt Decay and Command in hand. The game was over in an instant.
Game 3: He plops down an early Challice, but I have Decay in hand, so no big deal. Hymns, Decay, Snap->Hymn and Jace quickly end the game.

- vs. Grixis Delver [1-1]
I've found this to be an excellent match-up for Pile - one of the best. I'd rather go vs. Delver all day long than get blown out by Eldrazi, Dredg, Sneak or whatever.
Game 1: Pile does what Pile does. 2-for-1's all day long. Threats on his side hardly ever connect and Leovold closes out the game. He does get me midgame with a surprise Stifle, which I play around (or well, am aware off) the entire matchup.
Game 2: He gets an early DR online, double Cabal Therapy's away my Ponder and double Snapcaster, Wastelands me out of the game and gets early tempo. I never recover.
Game 3: We're having a good time and getting a bit too friendly, so time's running out. I have pretty firm control, he resolves a TNN, but I have a DRS and a Leovold and our life lotal's are too high, so the game ends in a draw.

- vs. Belcher [2-1]
Game 1: I mull to six, no FoW in hand and he blows me out with a bunch of 1/1 Gobs.
Game 2: The additional discard, Blue Blast, Flusters and Marsh Casualties come in and he gets blown out by Thoughtseizes, Hymns and DRS.
Game 3: I mull to five, just Blue Blast, FoW and Casualties in hand and I just sigh and go for it. He Probes me TWICE and sees the Marsh Casualties, plays Xantid Swarm and I just let it resolve. Lack of sleep on my part or I don't know, but he attacks next turn and goes off ... with Empty the Warrens and I just chuckle on the inside. He grabs his Gobs and I untap and say: "Don't bother." and cast Casualties. He looks at the card and says: "Oh ... I didn't realize that." - he packs up his board and Hymns never let him assemble a hand. He wasn't a bad player at all, but I think we were both not on our A-game, so I consider this a lucky win.

- vs. Grixis Delver [2-1]
Different guy. Different decklist. A lot more grindy and plays maindeck Chart a Course and Baleful Strix in the Side. He was especially prepared for the grindier matchups like Pile and Miracles.
Game 1: Pile value. Close game, still, since he gets early tempo - but it ends in dinky creature combat with Strixes flying over his head, Snapcasters connecting and DRS battles across the table. Win.
Game 2: Turn 1 Delver, double Wasteland, Daze, etc. We all know it.
Game 3: This game was lopsided. Even though the Strix's and Chart a Course's enabled him to go toe-to-toe, I squeeze out value and he just topples over.

- vs. Sneak 'n Show [0-2]
Game 1: We play a bit of 'name-that-cantrip-and-show-me-what-you-got' and after another attempt he resolves a Show and gets the Spaghetti Monster in play. He attacks, I get annihilated and am left with a USea and a Strix that takes care of his big bad. That robot owl REALLY went to town on that behemoth! I never really get things going again, though and he slams another baddy and I cry.
Game 2: He plays Magic. I want to play Magic too. I want to resolve a DRS and get it FoWed. I have no answer. He slams Blood Moon and I'm staring at Decay in hand and fetch for an Island. He has a single Island in play and a bunch of Volcanics, a Tomb and a City and we play a 15 minute game of; let's-use-our-single-Island, cantrip a bit and pass. He hardly picks up any cantrips and I do, but I'm Brainstorm-locked, but eventually finally get my Swamp online. I find a DRS, it gets countered. I eventually find a Kolaghan's Command and it gets countered. I never get a DRS online and can't get rid of the Blood Moon. We discard a bit and he eventually slams Show and Tell. I'm obviously still on my single Island but he's managed to find more and a Petal. I have double Edict in hand and decide to let it resolve so I can slam Leovold so I can maybe Edict my way to victory. He slams Omniscience, hardcast's the Tentacle-Creature and I know it's over. This was the only loss in the tournament and I was slightly salty, but did have a bunch of laughs with the guy - so, all's good. Top 8.

- vs. Grixis Delver [2-0]
Same guy I went 1-1 with earlier. The guy has to head home and he gives me the win, but we play a fun round for shit's 'n giggles and I get him anyways.

- vs. Grixis Delver [2-1]
Same guy I went 2-1 with earlier. His Chart a Course / Baleful Strix list obviously matches up better vs Pile, but it does come at a cost of tempo and I feel pretty confidently in control the entire match. Leovold was pretty key and Strix is MVP in all of the Delver games.

- vs. UW Stoneblade / Blade Control [2-1] [FINALS]
Game 1: He gets an early True-Name Nemesis online and I just CAN'T get rid of it and he slams me to zero. Counterspell is a pretty good card to counter spells.
Game 2: This is where the Hymn's were shining. Being on the play really helped in this particular round. He gets Pyroblasted and Red Elemental Blasted a few times, but Council's Judgment makes good work of my Leovold and Jace. He eventually gets Strixed down a bit, and drained with DRS and never gets a threat sticking for more than a turn.
Game 3: This game went long. I knew he ran 1 Flusterstorm main and I knew he rain 3 SB and they all came in. The Blasts did good work here, but I get countered a bunch of times but he still gets 2-for-1'd. He resolves Jace and Brainstorm's but I have a few dorks and end his while resolving my own, which of course gets Judged by the mighty Council the next turn. Batterskull never truly connects (outside of hitting a Strix) and even though Kolaghan's Command is fantastic, I never manage to resolve one. I get rid of the token in various ways and he gets chipped down by double DRS and Snapcaster. He recasts the Batterskull but Decay makes work of the token once more while I employ another DRS. 3 of them and a Snap go to town on his life total (which was at about 22 previously). He recasts Batterskull and it resolves, but he knows it's over, gets sucked dry and shakes my hand.

----------------------------------------

The extra discard was pretty key in a lot of matchups and the Blasts are something I can't live without. Blue Elemental Blast was pretty solid vs. Delver (though I didn't see a single Price of Progress) and took care of a bunch of Pyromancers and Bolts. It would've been another out vs the Blood Moon in the Sneak 'n Show match, but I never stumbled upon it.

I never used Liliana, the Last Hope nor did I use Sylvan Library, though I feel I should have in a few matchups, especially the last one. I really bums me out that Lili's +1 is -2/-1 instead of -1/-2 - but, I feel I should try to board her in more often, since it's definitely another inevitable win-con and it still gets rid of stuff like unflipped Delvers, Snapcasters, D'n'T troops, you name it. The recursion aspect also really lines up well with the deck. I just never really playtested much with her, so I think I instinctively didn't go that route when boarding, though looking back at it, I think I should've. If anyone has any input on her in Pile, I'd love to hear it.

Misersoneof
01-10-2018, 08:16 PM
I never used Liliana, the Last Hope nor did I use Sylvan Library, though I feel I should have in a few matchups, especially the last one. I really bums me out that Lili's +1 is -2/-1 instead of -1/-2 - but, I feel I should try to board her in more often, since it's definitely another inevitable win-con and it still gets rid of stuff like unflipped Delvers, Snapcasters, D'n'T troops, you name it. The recursion aspect also really lines up well with the deck. I just never really playtested much with her, so I think I instinctively didn't go that route when boarding, though looking back at it, I think I should've. If anyone has any input on her in Pile, I'd love to hear it.

I mained Liliana, the Last Hope at a tournament 2 weeks ago. I've been meaning to write a report but haven't gotten around to it yet. She was helpful when killing Lingering Souls Tokens and keeping a Mystic from connecting with a Jitte while I was battling an Esper Stoneblade player. Other than that she didn't see much action. Her 3 mana cost can be prohibitive when dealing with Tax decks and she is a little slow when dealing with delver players. I don't think I'll main her anymore but she could be worth keeping in the SB.