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RThomas-
08-03-2017, 03:51 AM
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DREDGE OR DIE



TABLE OF CONTENTS

I. PURPOSE/DISCLAIMERS
II. INTRODUCTION
III. DREDGE’S EVOLUTION
IV. CORE CARDS
V. SUPPORTING CARDS
VI. MANA SOURCES
VII. GAMEPLAY
VIII. SIDEBOARDING
IX. RESOURCES
X. MENTAL PLAY
XI. CONCLUSION
XII. CREDITS


A short blurb/justification about me: I have played Magic since 1999 and have played Dredge since it was printed in Ravnica block. My underwhelming claim to fame is that I beat David Gearhart (deep6ixer) and Roland Chang in Legacy at one point, and am undefeated against Doug Linn (hi-val) in my lifetime. I have played in various Legacy scenes including Chicago, NoVa, Baltimore, and Dallas over the years. I currently play on MTGO under the handle Ryan_Leaf (tl;dr story). I have played Dredge, Food Chain Goblins, and Two-Land Belcher in Vintage; and Dredge, Goblins, Belcher, Spiral Tide, Spanish Inquisition, Burn, and Cephalid Breakfast in Legacy. I appreciate decks that are considered “outsiders” and thoroughly enjoy writing about my tournament experiences. I am 6’2” and do not own any Volcanic Islands (unnecessary tidbit sorry).


I. COURSE AIMS AND DISCLAIMERS

This is a primer and discussion thread for Dredge with and without Lion’s Eye Diamond in Legacy. Past primers on this forum were written in 2012 (www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23432-Deck-Dredge)by Michael Keller (www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?53-Michael-Keller”) (Hollywood) and in 2009 (www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13767-Deck-Dredge)by Damon Whitby (Parcher (www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?2121-Parcher)). Far less comprehensive primers can also be found on other MTG forums.

The purposes of this primer thread are to:

• Provide an update to Michael’s 2012 Dredge primer.
• Acquaint the reader with the basic cards contained in Legacy Dredge.
• Discuss strategies and points of note regarding gameplay.
• Talk about sideboard tactics and potential hate cards.
• Link the reader to the vast collection of written and video resources concerning Dredge.
• Make the reader smile, giggle, or even laugh at stupid humor and puns.

Here is what this primer does not do:

• Provide the reader with a standard decklist. Readers should take note of this profound quote by Michael in his 2012 primer: I believe Dredge to be by far the most personal archetype in all of Magic currently in existence. I say that because while the deck has endured through years of hate and managed to stick to the basic core group of cards that make up the general foundation of the deck, people tend to like putting their own stamp on their own unique builds. Understand that Dredge is a completely subjective archetype, but it takes an incredibly knowledgeable player who understands the intricacies of the interactions with the cards in the deck as well as playing the best situational Magic they possibly can.
• Rehash discussion on single cards and approaches to play. The core of Dredge has not changed significantly over the years. Thus, a complete rewording of every piece written on a certain facet of the deck is both a disservice to the original author and a waste of your time as well as mine. You will discover below that most of the single card discussion is merely quoted from Michael and Damon’s primers; this is because they have written accurately and clearly on these points, leaving little to add. The credit goes to them and not me.
• Give a blow-by-blow history of Dredge. This is explained in the introduction.
• Explain what cards to side in and out in a particular matchup. Further clarification for this can be found in the sideboarding section.
• Discuss the Manaless version of Dredge. You can find a separate primer for that deck written by Michael in 2015 here (www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29336-Primer-Manaless-Dredge).


II. INTRODUCTION (start here)

“Dredge is one of my mechanics. I'll be honest, I have a soft spot for it. I like things that attack the game from a very different vantage point. That said, it's one of the most broken mechanics we've ever made, so I have no expectation that we'll ever see it again.” – Mark Rosewater, 5/2/16 (magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/storm-scale-ravnica-and-return-ravnica-2016-05-02)

No doubt Richard Garfield would roll in his grave if he saw what the dredge mechanic is able to do. Printed in the Ravnica block, Dredge changed the way that a player could play conventional Magic. A player no longer had to rely on tapping land to play creatures and spells to win the “fair” way. Dredge cheats creatures into play through interactions with the graveyard and through discarding certain cards. Some of the most powerful cards in the format contain the dredge mechanic and indeed, even other decks have found use for certain others of the 13 dredge cards ever printed.

Dredge is defined in the Comprehensive Rules at Rule 702.51a-b (mtg.gamepedia.com/Dredge). The experienced player will note that dredge is a static replacement ability that does not use the stack. It cannot be responded to, and can be done more than one time per turn (if you have multiple dredge cards and multiple draws). The number of cards dredged (or “milled”, as the old-fashioned terminology goes) depends on the card; e.g. Golgari Grave-Troll, with a “Dredge 6” ability, will “mill” you six cards when returning to your hand.


III. DREDGE AND ITS EVOLUTION (or intelligent design?)

Historically speaking, the Dredge mechanic has provided an incredible amount of controversy to competitive players around the world because of how degenerate it can truly be. Dredge is a deck that bases its core strengths on having the advantage of not interacting with its opponents and overwhelming them with an incredibly large horde of the undead. The archetype deploys a variety of angles of attack and primarily uses its graveyard as a virtual "toolbox" - an incredibly potent strategy when you consider most cards that are being placed into your graveyard at an accelerated rate systematically provide you card advantage in so many ways anyhow.

Dredge has certainly made its presence felt over the years since its debut in the Ravnica block years back in just about every competitive format - and has changed that much more. In Vintage, the archetype gains an incredible amount of degeneracy and consistency with the powerful Bazaar of Baghdad. In Legacy, however, there are other ways to make the deck degenerate with the current card pool using cards such as Lion's Eye Diamond and Breakthrough to dredge basically through a massive chunk of your deck. – Michael Keller, 3/25/12

This primer is not meant to chronicle Dredge’s rise from Ravnica block to its success in Ravnica standard, Extended, Vintage, Legacy, and finally Modern. There are many articles that account for this development far more effectively and in more words than I can here. Besides, you are not here to determine how Vintage dredge worked in 2010; you are here to determine how it works in 2017. If you follow the path of the righteous and become a Dredge devotee, you will undoubtedly search out these articles yourself.

In the meantime, here are a couple of history’s interesting Dredge articles that do some of this work for us:

Richard Feldman, The Dark Art of Dredge Fu, 5/2/11 (www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21777_The_Dark_Art_Of_Dredge_Fu.html)
Scott Enderfall, Unlocking the Vault: Dredge in Vintage, 9/30/11 (www.mtgoacademy.com/unlocking-the-vault-7-dredge-primer-part-1)
Gerry Thompson, Demonstrating My Range, 6/5/12 (www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/24224_Demonstrating_My_Range.html)


IV. THE BASIC CORE OF DREDGE (necessaries)

For as long as Dredge has existed as an archetype, so too have a core set of staples that have made up the foundation for which the deck exists. While Dredge can be an incredibly subjective archetype, there are some inclusions that will always give it the fuel it needs to do what it does best. – Michael Keller, 3/25/12

The cards below are generally accepted to be part of Dredge’s "backbone". Notwithstanding sideboard strategy, these cards should by default always be in the deck when you present for the game. Since there is no need to rehash the work Michael and Damon have already done in past primers, their explanations are in italics below. Special interactions that budding pilots should take note of (and experienced pilots as well) follow these descriptions.

Golgari Grave-Troll

Both iconic and powerful, the Grave-Troll is the flagship card for any competitive Dredge deck. It is currently the card which dredges for the most amount at a total of six (6) cards. Generally speaking, Golgari Grave-Troll optimizes most starts in that it allows you to dig farther into your library than any of its counterparts and additionally gives you the luxury of being able to accelerate your engine at a faster rate.

Notes:
• In many lists, GGT is the best (and only) target of Dread Return. GGT often enters the battlefield with double-digit +1/+1 counters. Don’t forget that it regenerates too.
• GGT counts itself when it enters the battlefield as a creature in your graveyard. Accordingly, in situations where GGT comes into play when it’s the only creature card in your graveyard, it enters as a 1/1. (Oracle ruling: If an effect puts Golgari Grave-Troll onto the battlefield from your graveyard, Golgari Grave-Troll counts itself as one of the cards in your graveyard and gets a counter accordingly.) Important to remember in corner cases, e.g. your opponent plays an Exhume and you must return GGT.
• GGT cannot be hit by Abrupt Decay, Lightning Bolt, or Fatal Push, three of today’s most prevalent removal spells. Keep this in mind as you determine what Dread Return target is appropriate.

Stinkweed Imp

The Imp as we've already seen maxes out at a Dredge count of five (5). It is currently the second largest dredger and is also optimal at maxing out with a full set of four. While not the most orthodox line of play, the Imp does fly, can be reasonably hard-cast, and has a built-in ability mirroring deathtouch.

Notes:
• Consider situations in longer games where you may be able to hardcast SI. It will reliably kill opposing creatures and come back to be cast again.
• Michael points out SI’s pre-deathtouch wording. Note that SI’s ability is triggered, and kills only with combat damage. This is very rarely relevant, but worth considering against creatures with activated abilities (e.g. Griselbrand).

Golgari Thug

Golgari Thug is third on the list as arguably the most controversial dredger currently in existence, with a dredge count of four (4). One of the reasons the card remains controversial isn't necessarily because of its basic inclusion in Dredge, but rather due in large part to its ineffectiveness in being able to facilitate dredges at a max dredge of four. Most lists that run Golgari Thug parallel its count with Ichorid, another card that takes advantage of the Dredge mechanic and lack of interactivity.

The Thug's built-in triggered ability has some corner-case merit, but it's usually moot in most circumstances. However, it's a rather nifty ability to utilize in instances where returning Narcomoeba's or other anti-hate measures becomes the only line of play that can bail you out of troublesome circumstances. Remember, if the Thug is placed into the graveyard from the battlefield and is the only creature card in the graveyard when that happens, he will trigger targeting himself and will be placed on top of your library. Just something to consider in the event he is cast and subsequently killed.

Bridge from Below

Ever since its printing in Future Sight, Bridge from Below has become the very backbone of Dredge. Being as how Dredge uses its graveyard advantageously, the ability to create a massive horde of Zombie tokens in a hurry can be just overwhelming to an unprepared opponent. This is one of the more confusing cards in the deck to understand, so let's look at it like this.

Here's the Oracle wording:

Whenever a non-token creature is put into your graveyard from the battlefield, if Bridge from Below is in your graveyard, put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token onto the battlefield.
When a creature is put into an opponent's graveyard from the battlefield, if Bridge from Below is in your graveyard, exile Bridge from Below.

We need to understand a few things here about the card, because as some of us have seen, it is a card that requires undivided attention to detail and the ability to use the triggers to your advantage. Let me repeat that one more time, because it is imperative to remember: attention to detail...and use the triggers to your advantage. You must not forget that not only should you make tokens when your non-token creatures die, but also remember to strategically dump Bridges from your hand whenever possible - depending on the match-up.

The most important thing to consider when an opponent's creature dies simultaneously with your non-token creature(s) is to stack the triggers. Again: Whenever a non-token creature is put into your graveyard from the battlefield, if Bridge from Below is in your graveyard, put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token onto the battlefield. When a creature is put into an opponent's graveyard from the battlefield, if Bridge from Below is in your graveyard, exile Bridge from Below.

This means understand that you may stack the triggers in your favor so you may get Zombie token(s) when the Bridge(s) trigger from the graveyard. It's happened before on the big stage and I still don't understand why people consider the deck easy to play. This is an intricate part of understanding the way the deck works, and this is the most important card to pay explicit attention to. This is an archetype that thrives on remembering triggers, so you must know how and when to stack them appropriately and advantageously. Always run four - always.

I will insert my own analysis here: take note of your game one wins, and determine for yourself the percentage of wins you gain based on making a boatload of Zombie tokens. You will undoubtedly be surprised how important this card is to today’s Dredge lists. Are you afraid of Echoing Truth or Maelstrom Pulse? Fear no more; this is how you will win the lion’s share of games against the midrange decks that rule today’s format.

Notes:
• Your Reanimator opponent rarely recognizes that when they Reanimate/Animate Dead your creatures, you not only keep your Bridges when their creatures die, but you also create a Zombie token(s) for them. Don’t be afraid to discard your dredgers early against those folks.
• It will be unappreciated that this is printed, but your most valuable Surgical Extraction target is your Bridges. You will be able to recover from your dredgers being Extracted, or even your Ichorids. Losing your Bridges creates a situation where each creature you return is exactly what it represents, which weakens your strategy.

Cabal Therapy

Dredge has the ability to overwhelm an opponent with a horde of Zombie tokens extremely fast. One of the primary ways the deck is able to achieve this is by being able to sacrifice its creatures to Cabal Therapy - an incredibly powerful discard spell that requires distinct skill and a solid working knowledge of the format to master.

Being able to discard cards from your own hand in order to get cards into your graveyard is fine, but the card's primary use should ultimately be to shred an opponent's hand and create Zombies in the process. This is a card that has been most efficient at running a full set of. Whether or not you opt to run three main or one in the sideboard is fine - at least IMO - but just understand like the opening quotation indicates that swapping out a single card for something that acts functionally different can change the entire course of game-play. This has never been truer than of a deck like Dredge where getting maximum value out of your graveyard means the difference between winning and losing games.

There is plenty of literature out there describing Therapy’s power and the toughness of playing it (pun). Here are several links you can peruse:

MTS thread on Therapy, circa 2008 (www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?9751-Cabal-Therapy-therapy&highlight=therapy)
Mike Flores, Pondering Cabal Therapy, 4/13/12 (www.starcitygames.com/article/23915_Pondering-Cabal-Therapy.html)
Caleb Durward, Legacy Weapon: Therapy Session, 9/5/12 (www.channelfireball.com/home/legacy-weapon-therapy-session/)
Michael Keller, The Cutting Room Floor: Group Therapy, 12/17/12 (jupitergames.info/articles/2012/52501/the-cutting-room-floor-group-therapy)
Drew Levin, Single Card Primer: Cabal Therapy, 5/12/15 (www.starcitygames.com/article/30815_Single-Card-Primer-Cabal-Therapy.html)
User ajfirecracker, Dredge 101 – Cabal Therapy,12/20/15 (www.youtube.com/watch?v=83Tt0hz76nk)
Rodrigo Togores, Legacy’s Allure: Cabal Therapy, 11/9/16 (www.acast.com/legacysallure/cabal-therapy-with-rodrigo-togores)

You will find hours of reading on Cabal Therapy in the prior Dredge threads going all the way back to its creation. There is very little we can repeat here that has not already been hashed out sometime in the past. Refer to the previous primer threads and use the friendly Search function at the top of your screen to find your answers.

Narcomoeba

Because a very large percentage of your library is going to be finding its way into your graveyard, Dredge needs to continue finding avenues of being able to "cheat" creatures into play from the graveyard. Narcomoeba is a card that, while incredibly good when dredged off the top of your library, can be somewhat of a liability when opened in your starting hand. You never want to ideally hard-cast anything but draw spells or discard outlets, and if you find yourself in a position where you're hard-casting Narcomoeba, you're usually in trouble.

Being able to fuel Cabal Therapy and Bridge from Below is incredibly important in Dredge, arguably most important, so consider when choosing how many Narcomoeba's you want to run you take into consideration what you're doing. Narcomoeba is purely fuel and a semi-evasive attacker, really nothing more here. However, its utility is paramount and running anything less than four can in some instances be an incorrect number.

Notes:
• Remember that Narcomoeba must enter the graveyard before entering play. This does not allow it to get around Grafdigger’s Cage, Containment Priest, Leyline of the Void, Rest in Peace, or Planar Void. It also makes it vulnerable to Surgical Extraction, Extirpate, Deathrite Shaman, etc.
• Because it does enter the graveyard, however, it triggers Prized Amalgam, discussed below. Since Narcomoeba’s trigger stacks, thus, you’ll have an opportunity to discard Amalgam (if able) before it enters play.

Ichorid

Two different descriptions are here. First, Michael’s from 2012:

…the single most powerful recurring threat in Dredge that refuses to die. Ichorid on its own is a relatively innocuous Black creature that really does nothing more than bait removal or suck up blockers, but when you truly look at why Ichorid is included in Dredge, you'll see why it's as powerful as it should be.

First off, Ichorid is an efficient, recurring beater that does not interact with your opponent as far as being a spell goes (assuming you don't hard-cast it, which would be relatively rare), so counter-magic is generally out the window. The card wreaks havoc on Control decks because of their inability to stop it from returning turn in and turn out, which makes it incredibly resilient and an intricate part of the deck's strategy of avoiding interactivity.

Additionally, in conjunction with Cabal Therapy & Bridge from Below, the card can be a menace. Sometimes it is not always correct to straight-up attack with Ichorid on the basis you do not want your Bridges exiled, so simply recurring one by exiling a Black creature and naturally letting it die at the end of your turn is ideal in amassing an army of tokens. Cabal Therapy optimizes this approach as you're able to make tokens and rip an opponent's hand apart in the process. The card speeds games up in a hurry when it has fuel, which is why sometimes only running two or three is the correct number.

From Damon’s 2009 primer:

Last things first; always run four. Unlike other formats, not only is Legacy full of creature removal, it is plagued by Swords to Plowshares which is more far more relevant. Legacy is also a format of creature-based damage, so the higher number you have to attack with, the more often your attack will be lethal. Also, the greater number of Bridge tokens you will get, and the greater chance you will be able to continue a threat if your Dredge engine is disrupted. Also may be needed to feed themselves, or pitch to an Unmask. That said, they're still the keystone, and the best card in the deck.

The “correct” amount of Ichorids to play has varied over time and ties in with a particular decklist. Over time, some have shown preferences to play four alongside four Putrid Imp, like this list (www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23432-Deck-Dredge&p=983446&viewfull=1#post983446) here. Others prefer greater diversity in their threats, like this list here (www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/18174_Legacys_Allure_Bloodghast_Dredge_with_Matthew_Bartlett.html), and play 0-3. Like every other listed card, there are pros and cons to every amount and discussion is scattered over the years.

Notes:
• Ichorid’s trigger only resolves upon resolution. This matters chiefly in two situations. First, if your opponent chooses to exile it from your graveyard in the upkeep, you will not lose another black creature card to exile as well. The other card is only exiled if Ichorid comes into play. Second, in decks that play Nether Shadow or Ashen Ghoul, you can stack your Ichorid trigger below the other trigger, allow the other creature to return to play, then exile for your Ichorid. This would matter if your graveyard was, e.g.:
Nether Shadow
Black creature
Black creature
Ichorid
Stack Nether Shadow’s trigger on top of Ichorid’s trigger, return the Shadow to play, and then exile for Ichorid to ensure both creatures get into play. Nether Shadow checks upon resolution, so you must have three creatures in the graveyard when that trigger resolves.
• An addendum to the above: Ichorid’s trigger may be Stifled; if it is, you need not exile another card for it.


V. DREDGE’S SUPPORTING CAST

Being as how there are a multitude of varying sub-archetypes of Dredge such as Manaless, Hybrid, Lion's Eye Diamond, etc., we can look at some of the cards that help facilitate the aforementioned archetypes and what makes them successful. We'll also look at some cons, as sometimes cards that are deemed "suboptimal" in one build could have tremendous value in another. Again, to reiterate: Dredge is an incredibly subjective archetype, so we need to keep an open mind as to what is deemed optimal to one player and suboptimal to others. – Michael Keller, 3/25/12

Various Dredge lists are built with various packages. Your target configuration when building the deck should maximize how cards in this section interact with others in this section and in the core. Of those listed below, no card is “required” to be included or if included, played as a four-of. While your final tournament list might end up quite tight (rhyme), your paths to getting to 60-ish are very diverse. Here are some of the most popular cards to include.

Lion’s Eye Diamond

While Lion's Eye Diamond requires very careful consideration when including it in your list, it also necessitates some thought as to what spells you'll opt to run with it. The Diamond is a card that is purely combo and enables some incredibly broken starts with just about any draw spell. However, the card can force you to go "all in" at times as you're discarding your entire hand in the hopes your draw spell resolves. Even if it doesn't, you still should have a dredger in your graveyard - but that doesn't mean that will be ultimately effective in how the game turns out should your draw spell be negated.

Lion's Eye Diamond is a card that, while not very price-friendly, can be essential depending on which variation of Dredge you're opting to run. Obviously, a deck that incorporates LED to its overall strategy is going to want the best draw/discard spells the format has to offer in order to complete broken opening hands. Also keep in mind that when using Lion's Eye Diamond, you know when to maintain priority so you can fuel your graveyard before maxing out with a draw spell.

The Diamond is a card that also gets shifted sometimes to the sideboard, which can be a mistake against some match-ups. Keep in mind that LED is a very powerful spell that requires a proper setup and opening hand to go along with it. Being able to discard your hand at will is nice, but know that sometimes that is not always the best line of play - especially in a format filled with varying kinds of hate.

The clear majority of high tournament Dredge finishes have included LED. Those that eschew it do so both by choice and for budget reasons. There are very few well-performing lists that can be found without it following the printing of Faithless Looting, discussed below.

Notes:
• LED’s Oracle text states: The ability is a mana ability, so it is activated and resolves as a mana ability, but it can only be activated at times when you can cast an instant. Yes, this is a bit weird. Remember that even though the ability says, “as an instant,” you can do it in response to another spell or ability as long as you have priority.
• Remember to hold priority when sacrificing LED in response to a draw spell. Ensure you either audibly say so in live play or hold CTRL in MTGO play, as failing to do so allows your opponent to respond.
• An interesting opening hand parlay occurs when you are on the draw and open with Cephalid Coliseum, LED, and other stuff. You can draw, play Coliseum, LED, and sacrifice it so you can activate Coliseum’s ability. Remember to count LED when you’re trying to get to seven.

Putrid Imp, Tireless Tribe

From Michael’s 2012 primer:

[Putrid Imp] is right at the top of the list due in large part that it is included in a vast majority of builds currently in existence. It is an intricate part in Dredge today because of the powerful amount of draw spells and the choice to eschew what is known as the "DDD" plan, or "Draw, Discard, Dredge" plan. Understand that not everyone feels as though Putrid Imp is optimal as far as giving your opponent an opportunity to interact with you goes. However, at one mana and being a Black creature, it provides an incredible amount of resiliency in being able to repeatedly fuel your graveyard with the most effective dredger available, feeds to a hungry Ichorid, and gives you access to dredged Therapies in your graveyard.

Putrid Imp empties your hand at your leisure and works well with many core cards like Cabal Therapy, Bridge from Below, and Ichorid (and Unmask, if you play it). Tireless Tribe does the same thing without the Ichorid interaction. For this reason, and because it flies, Putrid Imp is usually the first choice for a one-mana discarder. A special interaction note: you may block an attacker with Imp, then discard past Threshold to get around the “can’t block” text on Imp, if you need to ditch your dredgers or Bridge from Below. Further, Imp gets in a second point of power, further in line with the deck’s quick strategy.

Tireless Tribe is usually the 5th-8th creature to run in the discard spot. Tribe is often played in a budget list that plays without Lion’s Eye Diamond, as seen in the 2012 primer.

Prized Amalgam

This card did not exist when the previous primer was last updated. Amalgam does several things:

• Upgrades our lists with another threat to make it more diverse (i.e. less vulnerable to hate like Surgical Extraction).
• Returns to play at EOT whenever Narcomoeba or Ichorid do in the same turn. Consider effects that allow you to draw and dredge Narcomoeba on the opponent’s second main to get it in at their end step (e.g. Coliseum).
• Gives a freebie zombie with Cabal Therapy when you’re recurring Ichorid several times.
• Sacrifices and returns when you flashback Dread Return.
• Exiles to Ichorid in a pinch.
• In some lists, functions as an extra blue card for a sideboard Force of Will.

Amalgam’s large body intimidates most opposing creatures, and its nasty ability to keep coming back to play makes it a super inclusion in any list. Most that include it play 1-3; four are usually only found in the Manaless dredge decks. Note that the Oracle rulings state it must be in your graveyard at the time you return another creature from the graveyard; you may not, e.g., dredge a Narcomoeba and then discard Amalgam later in the turn to have it return EOT.

Breakthrough

If you're looking to run LED in your deck, look no further than Breakthrough - an incredibly potent accelerate that in conjunction with LED can blast through a massive portion of your deck in a hurry. However, it is not always necessary to run LED and Breakthrough together. You can always opt to eschew running LED in favor of more conventional discard outlets such as Putrid Imp and or Tireless Tribe (which has since fallen in favor of just Imp), and that can work still just as fine. Also take note that you can choose to keep a card or more in your hand depending on the amount of "X" you want to pay, although you really want the card to resolve and to dump as many cards into your graveyard as soon as possible (in most circumstances) so you don't want to open yourself to more conditional counter-magic or hold off until something like Gaddock Teeg hits the table.

You don't necessarily have to run a full set of Breakthrough, as some winning lists run only two or three main and keep a third or fourth in the board for Combo. This is, however, usually not the right line of play, as Breakthrough is just incredibly powerful when it resolves. However, let it be known though that LED does in fact produce mana when your hand is discarded.

Most of the dredge lists over the past couple of years have played Breakthrough as in the paragraph above. It’s often correct to board in the final copy you have in matches where you must win quickly. Sometimes, you may consider boarding it out if you’re on the draw in a match where you prefer to dig for immediate answers against graveyard hate (e.g. Leyline of the Void, Grafdigger’s Cage, Tormod’s Crypt), a task which Breakthrough performs poorly at. These are the exception though, rather than the rule.

Notes:
• LED’s instant-speed ability does not let you pay for Breakthrough with it. Thus, you cannot announce Breakthrough and then pay the X cost by sacrificing it.
• However, you are free to respond to Breakthrough by using LED. This gets your dredgers into the graveyard and gives you extra mana (e.g. red for a dredged Faithless Looting).
• Don’t forget that you can pay 2 to cast it to get around a Chalice at one counter. You don’t always have to make X be zero. In many cases, you don’t want X to be zero anyway. (Would not say this unless I had repeatedly witnessed it to be a thing.)

Faithless Looting

The newest and brightest star in the Dredge galaxy. This card not only draws you and allows you to discard two cards, it lets you be able to do it...again! That's right, for 2R (wink wink, LED) you can flash this card back and repeat said process. That is incredibly powerful when you consider that for all intents and purposes your primary objective is to plow through your deck as fast as you can and turn your graveyard into a smorgasbord of answers and win-conditions. Looting gets the job done very well and is seeing a very high percentage of play in Dredge currently.

While not necessarily a staple, Looting does in fact cost a single Red mana to cast. While this might be moot to some players, it really isn't when you consider the way you set your land configuration up. A deck for instance with twelve (12) land - eight (8) Gold including four (4) Cephalid Coliseum - can have awkward starts with a Coliseum and Looting attached to it. Be aware that if you're going to run Looting, you need to be able to hard-cast it and not necessarily believe that it only works discarded and flash-backed with LED.

In openers where you can play Looting twice (e.g. Land-LED-Looting), you’re nearly always going to resolve at least one. In openers where the Looting is another draw card (Breakthrough, Careful Study), the ability to dredge into a Looting still makes that draw lightning quick. Remember to sacrifice your LED in response to playing Looting (in all but exceptional cases) so that you both get your dredgers in the graveyard and have the mana to replay it.

Most lists will employ Looting as a draw spell and usually do so in fours. Others may leave it out in favor of Careful Study and other spells. Still others will include both Looting and Study. Where you find LED, you will usually find Looting.

Careful Study

From Michael’s 2012 primer:

Careful Study might as well be a staple in Dredge at this point because of just how good it is and always has been. It costs one Blue mana, which is very good because of the aforementioned reasons in regard to Looting. It's important to consider that Study does what Looting does, except without the bonus of Flashback. Study is a very potent accelerate and hand-filterer that can help facilitate the dredging process in addition to being a mana-friendly spell.

Incredibly good for what it does, I wouldn't run anything less than four - which I already do.

From Damon’s 2009 primer:

Weak. Seriously. I have run this card in every iteration of the deck, and in numbers from one to four. I've never been anything but disappointed. Yes, it does function as both draw, and discard. Yes, it can dig for answers, especially post-board. Unfortunately, it does none of this well; in most cases not even adequately. In almost every situation, I would prefer a more powerful and/or cheaper spell that might be limited in its variety of uses.

Obviously, opinions have differed on this card. In comparison to Looting, Study holds the advantage of being available with Coliseum, but the disadvantage of only being available once. Some lists prefer it because they need more blue cards (read: Force of Will). Others use it in addition to Looting. The discussion of Study is deep and available in past threads.

Dread Return

Dread Return is one of those cards that gives the deck a straight-up combo finish in being able to create a massive number of Zombies and the ability to recur a creature that either facilitates an instant win, provides incredible defensive resistance, or is absolutely huge (or any combination of these). Some people have begun shifting Dread Return to the sideboard as it has become somewhat of a "win more" card that can be situational at times and unnecessary given that the deck already has a very solid game one win percentage among most of the format.

The sideboard where you would ideally place a specialty creature like Iona, Shield of Emeria, which can oftentimes shut an opponent off entirely. Iona is usually the most common sideboard choice for Dredge as a Dread Return target, but there are other popular choices as well.

While its value in (non-Manaless) Dredge is not really disputed, the number of copies and its targets are hotly debated. A separate primer could (and perhaps should) be written on the value of different DR targets. Without broaching the subject of a dedicated target, DR is valuable on its own when it sacrifices your own creatures to create a load of zombies with Bridge from Below. You might DR a huge Grave-Troll, a flier to block a Marit Lage token, a Thug to recycle Narcomoeba, or something random just to make more zombies. Speaking for myself, I have DR’d every creature in the deck at one time or another depending on the circumstance.

Some people swear on a special maindeck DR target, while others prefer to keep them in the sideboard. To try and tabulate every single discussion of DR targets would be far too onerous and not worth our time. Again, the search button is your friend. Below is a non-exhaustive list of various targets mentioned in our threads at one time or another.

Akroma, Angel of Wrath
Ancestor’s Chosen
Angel of Despair
Ashen Rider
Blazing Archon
Cephalid Sage
Chancellor of the Annex
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Empyrial Archangel
Eternal Witness
Flame-Kin Zealot
Flayer of the Hatebound
Grave Titan
Greater Gargadon
Griselbrand
Inferno Titan
Inkwell Leviathan
Iona, Shield of Emeria
Petradon
Realm Razer
River Kelpie
Sadistic Hypnotist
Sphinx of Lost Truths
Sphinx of the Steel Wind
Stalking Vengeance
Sun Titan
Sundering Titan
Terastodon
Whirlpool Rider/Whirlpool Drake
Woodfall Primus



Street Wraith

I add this card to today’s discussion because of its versatility and utility against various hate cards we see often. Some lists play this in the sideboard to respond to cards like Surgical Extraction and Deathrite Shaman. Others play it because it draws without casting and exiles to Ichorid. Its big body and swampwalk ability are not negligible either.

Speaking from personal experience, I often seesaw between sideboard strategies that either want to get rid of threats slowing me down (e.g. the aforementioned hate cards) or power past it. Since Street Wraith fills both of these roles to an extent, I find myself playing with some number of copies in most lists I choose. Some find that their best way to utilize it is in decks that either try to play as few spells as possible or use more than four discard creatures (Imp and Tribe). Again, the way you choose to construct your deck will affect how useful Street Wraith might be.

Other considerations and diversions to the support cards

Various lists have, over time, employed different strategies for presenting a threat, with most of them coming as different creatures. Some of the cards listed below are included in various versions and usually require more attention to the rest of the list to make them functional. Defer to past primers and discussions to go over these thoroughly.

Ashen Ghoul
Bloodghast
Fatestitcher
Nether Shadow
Phantasmagorian


VI. A SHORT DISCOURSE ON MANA

A standard-ish LED Dredge list plays 11-14 mana sources (not including LED). The majority of these are five-color sources because of the need to play certain sideboard cards, as well as facilitate three colors for the maindeck.

Gemstone Mine

Mine is the first land usually included because of its pain-free mana. While use is limited to three mana, utility beyond the third use is usually limited since the game is often decided by that point. Don’t forget that an opponent’s Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth or Blood Moon, etc. (as for any of these lands) allows you to use it for mana without losing a counter. In a pinch, you might also deplete Mine intentionally so you can use it towards your threshold count (read: Coliseum).

Mana Confluence, City of Brass

These are the second/third gold sources. Confluence fills the deck before City does because of the few corner cases where City might be tapped by an opponent (e.g. Rishadan Port) for a free Lava Dart. The downside of these lands is that they don’t play well after you have run out of gas and must hardcast cards, but it’s difficult to be avoided.

Tarnished Citadel, Undiscovered Paradise, etc.

These cards were used before Confluence was printed. Paradise might still be used if your deck plays something like Bloodghast or if your personal preference is to use it.

Cephalid Coliseum
It's an un-counterable three draw. Play four unless you find consistent problems casting non-blue cards.

Lotus Petal

Throughout the deck’s lifespan, various players have come forward and either exulted or decried Petal. Its single use makes for difficult opening hand decisions, especially in situations where replacement by another land card would have made that decision clearer. When seen in the last couple of years, Petal has come out of the sideboard as a concession to the need for more mana sources against Wasteland or as an accelerator versus combo. More debate about its utility can be found in the previous threads.


VII. HOW DO I PLAY DREDGE (IT ISN’T MAGIC)

That is precisely the point. Dredge is not Magic: the Gathering in the traditional sense, since we are not strictly using lands and mana to play spells that win. The dredge mechanic creates a completely new, unforeseen way of approaching killing the opponent. It employs what some call a linear approach to the game, or winning the game in one redundant way. Therefore, most players consider Dredge to fall under the “combo” category of decks. You will win the game the same way nearly every time.

Like any combo deck, determining what to keep in your opener is a critical juncture in the game. Dredge mulligans reasonably well since it takes a mere three or four cards to explode. Consider the power that an opener of Land-LED-Breakthrough-Grave Troll has in a mulligan to four (the new Scry 1 rule helps immensely).

You should look for four different types of cards in your opening hand. These include:

• A dredger.
• A mana source (e.g. land).
• A discard outlet.
• A draw spell.

A useful mnemonic (altered from an example found in another MTG forum) you could use might be, “Dredge Goes Off the Deep End”. You need a dredger, a gold source (mana), a discard outlet, and a draw spell. (The deep end is your graveyard. This is a swimming reference.)

In most cases, you should consider a mulligan if your hand does not contain at least three of these. From Damon’s 2009 primer:

The most difficult obstacle to overcome when learning to play this deck is the situations and frequency with which you must mulligan. Not only are there specific needs for your opening hand, but they may change depending on your opponent, what game it is, and who is on the play. As a very general rule, there are four things you are looking for in your opening hand; Mana, Discard, Dredger, and Draw. Some cards count as both, but only in conjunction with others. I've found that in most cases if you don't have at least three of these four requirements that you must mulligan. If you have multiple draw spells, or are playing what you know is a good match/slow deck, this can vary a little. Some combinations such as LED-Coliseum, or LED-[Deep Analysis] allow you to break this since Lion's Eye Diamond acts as Mana and Discard, but this is an exception. I can't stress enough how important it is to force yourself to mulligan hands without these needs, and to then learn when you can risk breaking that rule.

Draw, Discard, Dredge (DDD) strategy

In some situations, you will find that it is unnecessary and even counterproductive to cast spells. Thus, you may find it useful to employ the DDD strategy. Here you draw a card for the turn, pass through the end step, and discard a dredger to reduce hand size to seven. Then, you dredge next turn, discard it again, and keep repeating. This is the engine of the Manaless deck and various builds of non-Manaless have been built around this strategy, like this one here (”www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22114-1st-Place-SCG-Open-Atlanta-Dredge”).

This strategy should not be discounted against slower, grind-ish control decks. An advantage of this strategy is that you can employ it at the outset, then play your spells later when it is safe and appropriate to do so.

Navigating various matchups

Hot take: An oft-overlooked point by those demanding analysis of certain matchups is that your linear strategy does not change from game to game. You are still going to win by dredging a bunch of cards and returning those cards to play. Understanding how your opponent’s cards either prevent you from doing that or outrace you is more important than reading about what to do in a specific match. For example, blue-based decks employing Deathrite Shaman (e.g. BUG Delver, Grixis Delver, etc.) use Deathrite and counterspells to slow you down. Figure out how to maximize your strategy against them: use Putrid Imp and Coliseum to get around Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm, quicker draw spells to outrace Deathrite, etc. Ritual-based combo demands you use Therapy to strip acceleration and tutors, while at the same time gunning to outrace. The list goes on and has already been well-documented by others.

The predominant outlook you should consider is that if you are playing a deck with Cabal Therapy, you will both know how an opponent’s deck works and at some point, obtain perfect information about how your opponent is going to play their hand. From there, your task is execution.

Sources of strategery

Various articles through the years have aided us in our playing philosophy. Here are several for your review.

Patrick Chapin, Dredge in Extended: A Serious Problem and How to Deal with It, 9/17/07 (www.starcitygames.com/magic/extended/14747_Innovations_Dredge_A_Serious_Problem_And_How_To_Deal_With_It.html)
Anwar Ahmad (AnwarA101), Practical Legacy: Interviewing an Ichorid Innovator (Damon Whitby), 7/30/09 (www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/17816_Practical-Legacy-Interviewing-an-Ichorid-Innovator.html)
Max McCall, Ideas Unbound: Legacy Dredge, 3/12/10 (www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/18948_Ideas_Unbound_Legacy_Dredge.html)
Richard Feldman, The Dark Art of Dredge Fu, 5/2/11 (www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21777_The_Dark_Art_Of_Dredge_Fu.html)
Adam Barnello, Recurring Nightmares: Dredge Returns, 7/19/11 (www.channelfireball.com/articles/recurring-nightmares-dredge-returns/)
Matt Elias, Legacy’s Best Combo Deck, 4/19/12 (www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/23945_Legacys_Best_Combo_Deck.html)
Gerry Thompson, Demonstrating My Range, 6/5/12 (www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/24224_Demonstrating_My_Range.html)
Jim Leonov, Learning to Dredge, Part 1 2/7/13 (www.magicmadhouse.co.uk/articles/2013/02/dredge/) and part 2 (www.magicmadhouse.co.uk/articles/2013/03/learning-to-dredge-part-2/)
Drew Levin, How to Build Dredge,1/21/14 (www.starcitygames.com/article/27755_How-To-Build-Dredge.html)
Kate Donnelly, Legacy Dredge 9/23/16 (www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2016/09/legacy-dredge/)

RThomas-
08-03-2017, 03:52 AM
VIII. WHAT DO I SIDEBOARD IN AND OUT HELP

There is no matchup and card-by-card breakdown on sideboarding in this primer. This is partially because I would rather explain why you are doing what you are doing, not just what to do (give a man a fish, teach a man to fish). But more than that, it is because there is not a “correct” method to sideboard. Different players will feel differently about different strategies and different methods. See the difference? My advice will be different from Michael’s, whose will be different from Joseph’s, whose will be different from Damon’s.

However, whatever your strategy is, you must figure out what you want to do and why you want to do it. It will be mind-blowing to know this, but consider the fact in every tournament, you will play more games against sideboarded hate cards than against an un-sideboarded deck. In a way, your game 2 and 3 strategy must be equally as good or better than your game 1 strategy. You must decide: Do I go all in on turn one? Do I mulligan to a safer opener? What do I name with Cabal Therapy? What is my role ('www.starcitygames.com/magic/fundamentals/3692_Whos_The_Beatdown.html') in this game?

I drag on in this section because it is the most important part of considering whether to play with this deck. You must know Legacy concisely, as well as your metagame, the popular sideboard cards at that given time, and what your card selections do or do not do well against them. There is no secret to the fact that this deck is one of the more easily hated against; your job is to make that hate ineffective, or meager, or just irrelevant. Thus, you must learn before you earn (stupid proverb).

My general sideboard strategy involves asking two general questions:

• Is the other deck going to outrace me?
• What hate must I protect against?

In my personal experience, I find that the first question is usually easily responded to. If our deck is too slow (e.g. against Ritual combo, Reanimator, Belcher, Turbo Depths, Show and Tell, etc.), we know we want cards to slow them down. Some are proactive, most are reactive. Valuable sideboard cards we want against these decks might include, but are not limited to:

Ancestor’s Chosen
Ashen Rider
Blind Obedience
Chain of Vapor
Chalice of the Void
Disrupting Shoal
Faerie Macabre
Failure/Comply
Force of Will
Iona, Shield of Emeria
Leyline of Sanctity
Leyline of the Void
Memory’s Journey
Mindbreak Trap
Root Maze
Sadistic Hypnotist
Surgical Extraction
Tormod’s Crypt
Unmask

As you see, these cards are all free or nearly free. In my experience, I look for the cards that can either do more than one thing well (e.g. Unmask, Memory’s Journey, etc.), or are powerful enough to win for you if they resolve (e.g. Ashen Rider, Mindbreak Trap, Iona, etc.) Your experience will differ from mine as well as your consideration that you will usually have less spots to devote to such cards than the other category. There are some cases where you must worry about answering hate while blithely outracing your opponent. If you find yourself doing both on a regular basis in your metagame, I encourage you to choose another deck to play that day.

Answering the second question is far more expansive. There is a great deal of graveyard hate people employ in our format and no two decks will employ the same strategy. It must be noted here that, especially in today’s larger metagames, your opponents are not sideboarding devoted Dredge hate cards. This means that while you will see less total hate cards than, say, the Mental Misstep era, the suite of hate cards your opponent brings in against you will be quite diverse and tailored to their specific deck. You must be prepared to deal with nearly everything you can imagine thrown at you.

While a deck-by-deck breakdown of possible hate is unnecessary and possibly does a disservice to a proper strategy, certain maindeck cards can signal what you must prepare against. Here are some answers that, in my experience, are helpful when determining what a opponent will bring in.

• Deathrite Shaman? Expect to see various cards like Surgical Extraction, Grafdigger’s Cage, Extirpate, Containment Priest, Faerie Macabre, Tormod’s Crypt. You can usually discount, though never eliminate Leyline of the Void, Relic of Progenitus, and Rest in Peace.
• Snapcaster Mage? Expect to see Surgical, Extirpate, and the above artifacts to a lesser extent.
• Scavenging Ooze? Expect to see Surgical, Bojuka Bog, and possibly other artifact-based hate.
• Dark Ritual? Such decks employ an array of hate, from artifact-based hate to Surgical/Extirpate/Faerie, to Leyline.
• Plains? Expect to see RIP, Priest, Surgical, Faerie. Leyline is usually eschewed because of its inability to be cast, while artifacts are eschewed for the better options above.
• Ancient Tomb, Cloudpost, Eldrazi Temple? Expect to see Leyline, Faerie, and/or artifact-based hate. Decks like Dragon Stompy, Eldrazi, and other sol-land stompy seem to simplify post-side games against our deck and employ the all in/fold strategy. Many pilots simply mulligan until they either find it or give up entirely.
• Various blue cards not mentioned above? Expect to see Surgical, Cage, Crypt, and other lesser hate cards. It is impossible to run the gamut of possible decks from Sneak/Show combo to Morphling control thoroughly. Through time you will learn what decks and what pilots play what cards at what times. What?
• Goblin Game? Make sure you are at the right tournament (useless).

You can find longer discussions on “Dredge Hitmen™” in Michael’s 2012 primer. Other cards you might see include Coffin Purge, Ensnaring Bridge, Nihil Spellbomb, Phyrexian Furnace, Wheel of Sun and Moon, Withered Wretch, and Yixlid Jailer.

Thanks to our five-color mana base, we have a diverse array of cards ready to answer all this hate. A sideboard should seek to employ cards that answer several of these at once. Your options include but are not limited to the following:

Abrade
Abrupt Decay
Ancient Grudge
Ashen Rider
Chain of Vapor
Darkblast
Demystify
Echoing Truth
Ingot Chewer
Memory’s Journey
Natural State
Nature’s Claim
Oxidize
Pithing Needle
Ray of Revelation
Serenity
Street Wraith
Unmask
Wear/Tear
Wispmare

A couple of short, off-the-top considerations:

• Consider that many decks playing Leyline are also playing Chalice of the Void. Keep this in mind when deciding what enchantment destruction to select.
• Street Wraith is special because of its role against Surgical and similar hate cards. Cycle it in response to a removal spell/ability to save your dredger and counter the spell/ability at the same time.
• Note that Wispmare will destroy a Leyline/RIP when it enters play. Its evoke ability is a triggered instead of a static ability. In those few cases where you can both get rid of an enchantment and discard, e.g., a Bridge, stack the Evoke trigger under the destroy trigger, let the destroy trigger resolve, and discard your other card in response to the evoke trigger. At the least, it provides one more creature when you Dread Return your Grave-Troll.
• Natural State does not hit Leyline (too bad).

These should take up at least a plurality of your sideboard spots. Seek to employ those that are most effective to you without putting a large wrench into your strategy.

Other considerations for your sideboard might include:

• Extra mana: Since the deck is weak to Wasteland/Ghost Quarter, consider adding a City of Brass or Lotus Petals.
• Dread Return targets: Included in most sides, choose cards that wreck certain matchups like Iona, Elesh Norn, Hypnotist, Terastodon, Ashen Rider. You may also consider cards that serve narrower roles, like Ancestor’s Chosen, Flayer, Akroma, Woodfall Primus, Sun Titan, and the like. More on these options can be found in the Dread Return section.
• More threats: We often have problems getting to 20 damage when our beaters are Extracted or Deathrited (made-up word). You may consider additional threats like Nether Shadow, Ashen Ghoul, Prized Amalgam, etc. to keep presenting new threats. Opinion: decks like Deathblade, four-color Leovold, and similar decks rely on Surgical and Snapcaster to keep you at bay. If you find these decks often, consider threats with different names such as these to keep the pressure on.
• Greater Gargadon: Damon discusses Gargadon at length in his 2009 primer.

A note on Firestorm

Firestorm and its inclusion is a hotly debated topic. Some players love it, while others hate it. Fans justify its inclusion by noting that there is no other effective way to remove Deathrite Shaman and Containment Priest. Haters note that it is easily countered and doesn’t advance the strategy as effectively as, say, Putrid Imp. You will undoubtedly run through this card at some point in your experience.

From Michael’s 2012 primer:

Recently, a card was printed that completely changed the dynamic of how we as Dredge players build our sideboards. It's a card called Scavenging Ooze, and it's a bitch to deal with. Basically, at this point in Legacy it is the bane of Dredge's existence as Maverick decks running Green Sun's Zenith can fetch it up in a pinch. It is imperative to have an answer to this creature at the ready, and no other card does it better than Firestorm.

The thing about Firestorm that completely separates it from other discard outlets is that it can do a massive amount of damage to your opponents' creatures - and your opponents - and the fact is the discard part of the card is an additional cost, so no matter what happens the cards you selected to discard are headed to the graveyard no matter what. At one mana, this is an incredibly good answer in dealing with Ooze and clearing the way against fast decks like Affinity and Elves, where creatures can swarm the board in a hurry.

Take note too of the fact that when you discard a Bridge from Below to Firestorm, it can potentially be exiled if you can't kill any of your own creatures upon resolution. However, sometimes it's a small price to pay if you need to wipe their board in a hurry. The card is a blowout and very hard to play around.

From Richard Feldman’s 2011 article:

Finally, there's Firestorm.

First, remember that you pitch cards as an additional cost to casting it so even if they counter it you still get to discard. This makes it literally the most reliable starting discard outlet in the entire list although it doesn't give you the recurring discard power of Tribe or Imp.

Second, understand that you can't pitch more cards (or deal more damage) than there are legal targets. So if there's only one creature in play at most you can Firestorm with X=3 targeting you your opponent and the creature. This means that if there are no creatures out yet using Firestorm to pitch two cards entails shooting both you and your opponent for 2. (Which favors you on average by the way so don't be afraid to damage yourself if you need a Careful Study-sized discard effect.) It also means if you're just one target shy of killing a big creature or the opponent you can add yourself to the mix so long as the racing math still works out.

Third, don't underestimate the power of Flame Wave to swing games. Even if casting it for enough to cripple or obliterate the opponent's team will force you to pitch your backup dredgers directly into the opponent's Crypt consider whether the opponent can still beat you—Crypt or no—if you wipe his team dome him for 3-5 and swing for the fences.

From Damon’s 2009 primer:

I never cease to be amazed at how absolutely insane this card is in Ichorid. Its original inclusion was for a cheap answer to both Yixlid Jailer and Magus of the Moon, but it does so much more. The discard is a cost, so against permission decks, it foils their primary plan of stopping your discard outlets. It can also act as a devastating sweeper against swarm decks such as Goblins and Merfolk. Spot removal can often be needed against less common problems such as Goblin Sharpshooter or Platinum Angel. The other common use I've found is after a stall of creature attacks and damage dealt, going straight to the opponent's dome with a Firestorm as a finisher. Eternal Witness makes this easy even after Dredging your library away. The possibilities go on and on.

Use your search function to find more Ad Nauseam (wrong deck) discussion of Firestorm.


IX. VIDEO AND TOURNAMENT REPORT RESOURCES

Fortunately, in the age of streaming and YouTube, there exists a wealth of content that both discusses strategy and displays real-time & recorded matches. This playlist (www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPmV9Sb3CDgFKjn-gwBrpay6WGrf7vZvl) is a great place to start to find YouTube recordings of various matches. More videos and regular livestreams will be added here later on

Feel free to post more in the comments below. Below are some written Dredge tournament reports:

Ryan Thomas, 11/27/10, Baltimore Legacy event (www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19389-11-27-MD-tournament-Dredge-report)
Brot_Ohne_Kruste, 5/17/11, Top 4 Bazaar of Moxen (www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20880-Bazaar-of-Moxen-5-Top-4-with-LEDless-Dredge)
kombatkiwi, 5/21/11, New Zealand Legacy event (www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20924-5th-Place-with-No-LED-Dredge)
4eak, 9/13/11, 1st Place SCG Atlanta (www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22114-1st-Place-SCG-Open-Atlanta-Dredge)
Ando Ferguson, 3/16/12, Top 8 GP Indianapolis (www.gatheringmagic.com/andoferguson-031612-dawn-of-the-deaf-a-top-8-report/)
Michael Keller, 3/26/12, 13th Place SCG Baltimore (www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23436-Report-Dredging-to-Glory-13th-Place-at-SCG-Baltimore.&p=628643#post628643)
"athiestpiece", 5/4/15, Fire/Dice Legacy staples event (www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/34uxn2/tournament_report_ledless_dredge_at_a_legacy_for/)
"bltzcrg", 8/31/15, GPT (www.reddit.com/r/spikes/comments/3j3wxo/legacy_gpt_report_winner_winner_brains_for_dinner/)


X. NON-CARD CONSIDERATIONS (how to mentally play like a pro)

In my personal experience, Dredge lends itself to some neat mind tricks in tournament play. The adept pilot will notice these and attempt to take advantage of the opponent’s inattention to the stack, ignorance of how cards interact, or abhorrence for Dredge in general. Here are a few I have noticed in my years of play with this deck.

• Generally, players hate playing against Dredge. Pure demon hellfire and sinful vibes to the soul are technically reserved for those playing Manaless Dredge, but standard Dredge screws up emotions just as adroitly. Because of this, you will often find that most of your opponents decline to test against Dredge. Use this to your advantage. Clueless opponents will do silly things like Surgical the first dredger to hit your graveyard or reanimate a dredger to exile your Bridges. These things don’t work.
• Because of this loathing, your opponents will either quickly keep post-side hands with one piece of hate (even as slow as Deathrite Shaman) or mulligan aggressively until they find that hate. A well-timed “snap keep” can throw them off balance and make them seriously doubt the power of their opener. Use this play judiciously.
• Hot take: When using Cabal Therapy, you name a card upon resolution, not upon announcement of the spell. Various players attempt to take advantage of this trick by naming a card upon casting Therapy, only to name a different card upon resolution. I am (opinion) not a fan of this sort of angleshooting. I can understand the move in a Grand Prix-level tournament against an opponent who you know to be a high-performer, but in your garden-variety monthly, this seems like a dick move bordering on fraudulent. Figure out for yourself if and when you want to employ this strategy.
• Remember what triggered abilities are on the field. Your opponent will do whatever they can to try and hide them from you. For example, I remember one match several years ago where my opponent led with a Chalice of the Void on one counter. At the time, I had a terrible time remembering Chalice triggers. So, I took a leaf from my 8.5"x11" notebook, wrote, “THERE IS A CHALICE FOR ONE” on it, and put it squarely in the middle of my playmat. Laughs were had all around. I won that game in part because (I like to think) my opponent was distracted by the pure absurdity of that move. My reasoning was, if my opponent thinks I’m already a mutant by playing this deck, play to that strength.
• Your deck is already weak against combo. The thoughtful hesitation at times can be game-saving at times you can’t stop them but you want them to think you can. Tank on that third spell of the turn to telegraph Mindbreak Trap if you don’t have it. Perhaps they’ll play Goblin Charbelcher or LED and pass, out of fear you’ll just counter their next enabling spell. Then play Ancient Grudge the next turn and ruin their day.


XI. CONCLUSION (end here)

I sincerely hope you have enjoyed and learned from this primer. For me, I treasure Dredge in all formats since it is a special deck that breaks all the norms. The surprise and dismay that crosses my opponent’s face when I lead with Coliseum and Careful Study is worth all the hate I receive when I play the deck. Dredge players are a special breed and I’m glad to be part of this small fraternity. I hope you will provide gallons and even liters of feedback via this thread, PM, my MTGO handle, or directly at rwt422[at]gmail[dot]com.

This primer is by no means meant to be comprehensive. Various lists, cards, and strategies have been excluded, and I would be happy to hear about it in the comments below or any other communication method listed above. The community development of Magic is what sustains it above all other factors.


XII. CREDITS

I am indebted to the work that Michael Keller, Damon Whitby, Joseph Moreno, ajfirecracker, and others have done to develop this deck. A great deal of their work is quoted here and, while not the end-all-be-all of analysis, it is an invaluable starting point for determining what to play and how to play it in this deck.

An equal amount of thanks goes to every single person that has ever contributed to the discussion over the past ten years. Without your thoughts, Dredge does not evolve to the terrific deck it is today. I cannot thank each person by name, but if you have posted in this thread or written an article about this deck, I am grateful to you.


MENTAL HEALTH BREAK

If this post bored, enraged, or upset you, enjoy a picture of my pups Icky and Narco playing. Obviously, black is the best color for a very good boy (please do not sig this sentence).

http://i.imgur.com/VwacRCd.jpg

Chronatog
08-04-2017, 01:43 AM
Carefully - if at all. I haven't been playing the deck much in the last 6 months, but I love this deck more than any other for some reason I haven't worked out!:laugh:
I don't really see the point if you're going to be battling against RiP & LotV in every match-up, but if extraction is going to be the main obstacle I feel we have a fighting chance. The only bugger with playing carefully, is that the whole LED/Breakthrough line of play that serves this deck so well on Turn1, is something of a punt.
I also like Dredge and don't want to give it up. Perhaps just right now is note the best metagame cycle for Dredge, but everything changes. Mind Over Matter has a very relevant flavor text.

Yes, hand discard effects doesn't work well after sideboarding. I think that in most cases for a LED based deck transformational sideboard is not to have LED's.


In the past I've tried Unmask's but we're not really black-cards heavy enough for it to be consistently a good line of play. Brainstorm was always the enemy with any form of targeted discard really. Now with Top gone from miracles, this line of play might actually be a little more viable than it was back when I tried it.

Personally, my first optimized deck in legacy was manaless dredge. Many people pass the deck off as trash, but miss the point of the deck. The fact that most of the lines of play with manaless cannot be interacted with, from using things like Street Wraith, Phantasmagorian etc., is something that rates a mention.
I dunno if some freakish dredge deck could utilise these un-interactive elements with LED, and actually be a good deck....
This sounds like a good idea to explore more. I never played manaless dredge, but used 4x Street Wraith in my LED-Dredge deck and liked the effect a lot (good scenario - play LED, cycle Wraith, in response sacrifice LED, discard hand with dredgers and Faithless Looting and go off). Combined with Phantasmagorian, perhaps the deck can be turned into something less interactive even in case of Surgical Extraction.

However, permanent based hate still is a big issue and I don't see how counterspells can be reliably used in a build with Street Wraith and Phantasmagorian. I think it will be easier to have more black cards - Unmask is one of them. Also Leyline of the Void is hard to deal with whether you use counterspells or discard, so Nature's Claim or Fragmentize are still important to have. On the other hand, Leyline of the Void can potentially fits well into a black-based dredge deck as extra copies can be pitched to Unmask.


I currently run a blue FoW variant of Dredge. I've been running the blue build for quite a while now, in both Manaless and LED-dredge.
The main problem with the FoW build is that you do sacrifice some raw speed, as B-thru's are problematic with FoW in hand. Having FoW in hand is great, and whilst it can be effective in baiting your opponent, you only have 4 of them. I tried testing Disrupting Shoal as redundancy for a little while but it was terrible. Mindbreak is my 2nd counter of choice FWIW when I choose to run them.
I'm going to be testing out the new Failure // Comply as a sideboard option but it might end up being far too slow to ever be a threat.
FoW, Misstep, and Trap are good in Pitch Dredge as there are plenty of blue cards to pitch. I tried legacy dredge with FoW's and didn't find it consistent enough to grand addition of countermagic. Though, effect of surprising your opponent can help to win the game.

Comply potentially can be useful to partially protect yourself during a turn you try to go off. However, many threats are played at instant speed (notably Surgical and Priest) and will be played in response. I would be very interested in hearing about your test results.


Quite a few of the guys here like using Lotus Petal's in from the side. I like this approach too.
I've been running 2x Iona in the side, with the plan on naming whatever colour relates to their hate, or combo pieces.
I like the idea of a transformational side, but given how many of the mainboard cards are unique to dredge, I'm not sure how we avoid simply being a very bad version of whatever we're aiming to impersonate. I've tried the Dark Depths version that some have suggested but I found it horribly inconsistent.

Petals are good mana accelerators, but dilute deck a bit and provide only one time effect. And casting 2CMC spells is not what dredge can do well and consistently :(. And Iona, as any other reanimation target is of no help when you don't have a graveyard or dredgers. I think if you were able to resolve Dread Return, you are winning anyway. The problem is that I don't see how to reliably get to this winning part in games 2 or 3. I can see how Dark Depth plan can be challenging in Legacy and perhaps this strategy requires an absolutely different deck build - something with Life from the Loam and Riftstone Portal, for example.

Anyway, I'm still adjusting to the new reality for Dredge so it is hard for me to evaluate different possibilities. One of the avenues I plan to explore is to try Blodghast + Dakmor Salvage + Undiscovered Paradise. With a bit more lands in deck, this build may be more resilient to permanent hate. Time will show.

Heisenberg
08-04-2017, 05:20 AM
Awesome work! Really ejoyed reading about the mental tips how to play...:) Also a great description of all important triggers and stuff around them... Once again - good job!

yadabadabadu
08-13-2017, 06:11 PM
Hi everyone!

First time posting here on The Source, just to share my first experience with the deck IRL.

Yesterday I played on a side event in GP São Paulo, the Power Legacy with 52 players (sorta). It was my first Legacy tournament, since that I had just finished building the deck and there is not much of a legacy community here in my city. Well, here is a quick report:

-Match 1: UR Delver W 2x0 (not much to say about this game, the deck did its thing)

-Match 2: 4C Dever(?) L 0x2 (both games i think i mulliganed pretty wrong, keeping slow hands. Wastelands and Fow didn't let me do anything)

-Match 3: Burn W 2x0 (same as the first match, the game did his job, cabal therapys helped me. Game 2, my opp mull to 5 looking for a Leyline, but didn't find, keeping a hand with 2 Mulan, one bolt and two mountains)

-Match 4: Sneak and Show W 2x0 (game 1 my opp Show and Tell an Emrakul, but i had already built a pretty strong board with 3 bridges on the grave. He attacked with Emi and I go down to 5 life, but with annihilator i get to put around 6 zombies token and had 3 Ichorid on my grave for lethal next turn. Game 2 Cabal Therapys saved me, as it strip downs my opp hand, leaving him only with a Emi. Quick note: game two he cast surgical extraction on response to my first Narcomoeba trigger, I use my Cephalid Coliseum abbility and manage to put the 2 left on battlefield)

-Match 5: ANT Storm L 1x2 (game 1 he probe and therapied two breakthrough from my hand, and stormed out, game 2 i mull to 4, make him discard 2 dark rituals with therapy and prevent a turn one win, game two we both mull and keep slow hands, he storm!)

-Match 6: Food Griffin W 2x0 (both games we made punts, but it was a grindy game where we both mull hard. He didn't find his combo and forget to cast a walking balista at 0 to exile my bridges)

After this 6 rounds I didn't manage to get to Top 8 but I did won 18 boosters, at 12º place!

The list I used is pretty stock, with 3 careful study and 3 breakthrough. The only differences was 4 City of Brass and 1 Mana Confluence (didn't find more Mana Confluence) and 4 Ichorids MD.

Some others notes:
-Dredge is a strong deck and carried me around during the tournament. I made a LOT of missplays, but the deck forgived me and helped me.

-I loved the format, the first time I get to play IRL! It was the feeling I got when I first started playing MTG! Everything was new, the decks, the cards!

-I got to meet with RK Post! He was here at GP, one of the most awesome artist in MTG!

Well, after this, I wanted to ask you guys for some kind of advices with sideboards against "unknown" decks (like when you combo off turn 1 and the opp concede before you get the chance to see what he got), the anti hate package?

Thanks in advance and sorry for my english!

RThomas-
08-20-2017, 06:44 PM
Hey folks. Let's rekindle this discussion with a new, really stupid (good) card: Driven // Despair

I noticed this gem in a new HOU pack I opened the other day. Then I tried it in Modern Dredge.dec. This card is wonderful and I don't know why we haven't discussed it yet. Here is why you should try Driven // Despair:

Driven functions as another draw spell when in your hand. It either fills your graveyard immediately or helps you find what you're looking for to do so.
Driven gives your guys trample when in your hand. This is helpful when, say, you're trying to climb over Young Pyromancer tokens, or a bunch of Goblins, or a bunch of Death Tax creatures, or other similar situations you can imagine.
Driven stacks your draws so with a Putrid Imp, you can dredge a guy, discard him, and dredge again if you hit with multiple guys.
Despair gives your guys menace, which is useful for that one-turn alpha strike. Pretty useful when we're in a middling situation with 2-4 zombie tokens. Perhaps it ends the game nearly half a turn faster on average in the deck.
Despair makes your opponent discard a bunch of stuff. It's pretty much a 1B Rakdos's Return when you consider at least some of your guys will reach. I have found this immensely helpful against stuff like ANT, where they're not always going to go off turn 1 or 2.

Here is what it does not do:

Cost one mana. This might be enough to weaken it to a point where we don't want it. I have not yet been sorry to cast it, however.
Refill your hand.
Get around a Chalice for two (who cares)

I have wanted some more discard against stuff like Leovold.dec and Delver decks. I wanted a little more strength against Storm. I wanted a little extra oomph against Death Tax. I think this does all of these things, and reasonably well. I'm interested to hear your takes on it.

potatodavid
08-24-2017, 03:00 PM
Hey folks. Let's rekindle this discussion with a new, really stupid (good) card: Driven // Despair



what would you be cutting, and how many would you run?

I feel like you will never have enough lands to run this efficiently.

Final Fortune
08-24-2017, 04:37 PM
There is almost no mention of Cephalid Coliseum?

cdnza
08-24-2017, 04:55 PM
New thread! But no lists in the primer - does anyone have any to offer?

RThomas-
08-26-2017, 09:52 PM
what would you be cutting, and how many would you run?

I feel like you will never have enough lands to run this efficiently.

I wouldn't play more than one. I don't really care what you cut to play it: 11th-12th dredger, a draw spell, the 13th-14th land. You could not cut anything and play it as card 61 instead. I would never want to see more than one. The drawback of having only 12-14 lands in your list to play it is somewhat offset by the fact you can use LED to cast Despair. It takes the same input as Coliseum, anyway.

If you insist, here's what I am playing with today:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence
1 City of Brass
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
2 Prized Amalgam

4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
1 Dread Return
1 Driven/Despair

SB:
4-5 artifact/enchant anti-hate
1-2 DR target
0-3 Firestorm
4-6 combo hate


There is almost no mention of Cephalid Coliseum?

It's an un-counterable three draw. Play four unless you find consistent problems casting non-blue cards.

Michael Keller
09-17-2017, 10:54 AM
After a long hiatus, I made my return this weekend back to Dredge at Eternal Extravaganza VII. Went 7-2 (good enough for 13th place), and got on feature twice.

EE7 Match here at around 3 hours in. (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/175282348)

Report to come.

meffeo
09-17-2017, 03:43 PM
After a long hiatus, I made my return this weekend back to Dredge at Eternal Extravaganza VII. Went 7-2 (good enough for 13th place), and got on feature twice.

EE7 Matches here. (https://m.twitch.tv/talesofadventure/profile)

Report to come.

Great Hollywood! Link's not working, it goes to a vintage match.

Michael Keller
09-17-2017, 07:00 PM
Link fixed.

Oestrus
09-18-2017, 11:56 AM
After a long hiatus, I made my return this weekend back to Dredge at Eternal Extravaganza VII. Went 7-2 (good enough for 13th place), and got on feature twice.

EE7 Match here at around 3 hours in. (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/175282348)

Report to come.

I see Lion's Eye Diamond, and Prized Amalgam, which I'm completely here for.

Good to have you back, sir!

Michael Keller
09-30-2017, 09:40 PM
Just won an Underground Sea at a Dual Land event today with the following list:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence
1 City of Brass

4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
1 Prized Amalgam
1 Street Wraith

4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
2 Dread Return
2 Careful Study
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

//Sideboard
3 Firestorm
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Serenity
2 Duress
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ashen Rider
1 Street Wraith
1 Prized Amalgam
1 Breakthrough

Matchups:
R1 W2/0: BUG Delver
R2 W2/1: GW Cloudpost
R3 L1/2: Grixis Delver
R4 W2/0: Grixis Delver
R5 W2/0: UR Delver
T8 W2/0: Death and Taxes
T4 W2/0: Enchantress
T2 L1/2: Grixis Delver

https://i.imgur.com/iJ2vXhG.jpg

Kap'n Cook
10-01-2017, 09:32 PM
5th place in the Legacy Challenge today. 1st seed after swiss, report this week.

Que
10-02-2017, 01:57 AM
5th place in the Legacy Challenge today. 1st seed after swiss, report to come.

Congrats Kap'n.

Not a bad week for Dredge. I just got 4th at my monthly LGS Staples tournament. :T


Also Congrats Hollywood on the win!

Que
10-06-2017, 02:22 PM
Here is the VOD of my semi finals match where I don't quite get there, but I figure the more gameplay there is the better. Overall I was happy with my performance, but I'm always trying to take 1st so on to the next one. :T

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81RYfp9DrNA&t=797s&list=PLPmV9Sb3CDgFKjn-gwBrpay6WGrf7vZvl&index=6

Decklist:

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=17060&d=305569&f=LE

CabalTherapy
10-06-2017, 04:50 PM
Good to see Dredge putting up some solid results lately.

trinkets
10-07-2017, 01:30 AM
Is there any reason for the recent, successful lists not having a singleton flame-kin zealot as a dread return target? Do you feel the kill being one turn faster is not worth it, or just that, the board state for being able to kill your opponents with a dread return for zealot does not come by often enough to warrant a slot?

Also, thanks for keeping this primer alive! It's been a great help for someone starting anew with this archetype!

Michael Keller
10-07-2017, 04:02 PM
Is there any reason for the recent, successful lists not having a singleton flame-kin zealot as a dread return target? Do you feel the kill being one turn faster is not worth it, or just that, the board state for being able to kill your opponents with a dread return for zealot does not come by often enough to warrant a slot?

Also, thanks for keeping this primer alive! It's been a great help for someone starting anew with this archetype!

FKZ is fine. The fact is there are several flex spots in the deck that can be shifted around in really any way you want. FKZ is one of those slots as a DR target. I don't like it personally anymore, but that doesn't mean it's bad or not viable.

trinkets
10-07-2017, 09:47 PM
FKZ is fine. The fact is there are several flex spots in the deck that can be shifted around in really any way you want. FKZ is one of those slots as a DR target. I don't like it personally anymore, but that doesn't mean it's bad or not viable.

Thanks for the answer. Could you explain your reasoning though? Because it seems like it's not just you that doesn't like it at the moment. In fact, most recent lists do not include FKZ.

Currently I'm dedicating two MD slots to DR targets (Griselbrand and FKZ), which I'd really rather not. My reasoning behind this is that I feel that without this kind of a combo-y package, it's really hard to race other combo decks like TES and Depths/Depths Reanimator. Does Iona MD fix these matchups without sacrificing MD consistency?

Most of my questions are probably due to inexperience with the deck (and influenced by my local meta), but it'd be great to know how do you guys feel about these questions.

Thanks a bunch,

Beatusnox
10-09-2017, 12:41 PM
Thanks for the answer. Could you explain your reasoning though? Because it seems like it's not just you that doesn't like it at the moment. In fact, most recent lists do not include FKZ.

Currently I'm dedicating two MD slots to DR targets (Griselbrand and FKZ), which I'd really rather not. My reasoning behind this is that I feel that without this kind of a combo-y package, it's really hard to race other combo decks like TES and Depths/Depths Reanimator. Does Iona MD fix these matchups without sacrificing MD consistency?

Most of my questions are probably due to inexperience with the deck (and influenced by my local meta), but it'd be great to know how do you guys feel about these questions.

Thanks a bunch,Gris almost always amounts to win more showboating than actually winning the game. He also typically changes a lot of the math behind card counts. Check the old thread for a lot of detail discussion and bickering over it. Suffice to say, there is a reason you don't see a lot of lists running it.

As for using combo kills to be faster, that debate is one of the oldest ones about this deck. Quad-laser vs a combo variant. If your local meta is full of fast combo decks, I believe you should have a combo kill. That stated I am also more of a combo player at heart and I always play with the combo kill unless it just needs to come out in favor of other targets.

Currently my main is 1 Flayer of the Hatebound and 1 Flame-Kin Zealot. This enables not only an instant combo kill, but in the case of Flayer it can still be used to grind out some games.

Sideboard return targets are Iona and Elesh-norn. I have played ashen rider in the past, I like the card a lot, but due to some of the local meta decks I didn't have room for it.

With all this said, I am far from the best dredge player, and my own confirmation bias may cloud my thoughts here. One of the things I enjoy about this deck is that there isn't really a "right way" or "wrong way" to build it (within reason) unless you're on manaless. Those guys are weird.

Sent from my ASUS_Z00TD using Tapatalk

PuppyWuppy
10-09-2017, 03:52 PM
I wouldn't play more than one. I don't really care what you cut to play it: 11th-12th dredger, a draw spell, the 13th-14th land. You could not cut anything and play it as card 61 instead. I would never want to see more than one. The drawback of having only 12-14 lands in your list to play it is somewhat offset by the fact you can use LED to cast Despair. It takes the same input as Coliseum, anyway.

If you insist, here's what I am playing with today:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence
1 City of Brass
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
2 Prized Amalgam

4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
1 Dread Return
1 Driven/Despair

SB:
4-5 artifact/enchant anti-hate
1-2 DR target
0-3 Firestorm
4-6 combo hate



It's an un-counterable three draw. Play four unless you find consistent problems casting non-blue cards.

How is Driven/Despair. Seems spicy =D

Silent Requiem
10-18-2017, 10:21 AM
The primer is excellent, but the lack of sample lists is unfortunate. I understand not wanting to tell people 'this is the way to play this deck', but someone new to the deck is, almost by definition, poorly placed to tell whether any given net-deck is a good place to start or not.

Any chance you could update the primer with a few solid examples? If you really don't want to do that, what about linking to a few (relatively current) examples that would be a good starting point?

Ronald Deuce
10-18-2017, 10:58 AM
The primer is excellent, but the lack of sample lists is unfortunate. I understand not wanting to tell people 'this is the way to play this deck', but someone new to the deck is, almost by definition, poorly placed to tell whether any given net-deck is a good place to start or not.

Any chance you could update the primer with a few solid examples? If you really don't want to do that, what about linking to a few (relatively current) examples that would be a good starting point?

Most of the deck is reasonably fixed. Minimum of 12 lands, 11 Dredge cards, 8–12 looting effects or discard outlets, and quads of LED, Narcomoeba, and Therapy.

There are a few other rules of thumb—e.g. don't run more than one Dread Return without a dedicated target; nonessential cards are usually best if they're black creatures.

I've not played Dredge nearly as long as some of the people in this thread, but what strikes me about tuning it is that you want to minimize variance to the greatest degree that you can, simply because we have no deck manipulation to go with our overwhelming "draw" power. So I err on the side of running quads, the exceptions being with Dread Return (singleton md), PAm (double md), dedicated Dread Return targets (none in the main), and "functionally identical" lands like City of Brass and Mana Confluence.

Obviously, that's not the only way to do it, but I think it's usually a safe assumption that the farther away from straight quads (and/or trips-and-quads) a list is, the more experimental (or metagame-tuned) it is. (Obviously there's a debate between whether it's better to run more Dread Return stuff or more quads, and both work fine in my experience; feels like a speed-vs-consistency debate to me.) This isn't intended to denigrate or write off people running any particular setup; it's just what I've observed.

I'd be interested to read more about sideboard options, what goes out to bring them in, and where they really shine and/or fall flat.

Speaking of sideboards, anyone still running Force of Will? I swear, I keep coming about an inch away from cutting it, then it totally takes over a match.

ThomasDowd
10-18-2017, 12:18 PM
Speaking of sideboards, anyone still running Force of Will? I swear, I keep coming about an inch away from cutting it, then it totally takes over a match.

What is your MD config for force in the board? and how many forces are you running in the board and how do you board? I am intrigued.

Skimming over the old thread I couldn't find a good post with them.

slave
10-18-2017, 09:03 PM
Gris almost always amounts to win more showboating than actually winning the game.
.....
With all this said, I am far from the best dredge player, and my own confirmation bias may cloud my thoughts here. One of the things I enjoy about this deck is that there isn't really a "right way" or "wrong way" to build it (within reason) unless you're on manaless. Those guys are weird.
I tend to agree with Griz - unnecessary to win. But if you resolve him, you win right there after you therapy their hand to dust. That's debateable of course.
My DR targets of choice are usually 2x Iona from the side these days. Iona is a house against so many decks if you can resolve it, I wanted two of them to up my chances of seeing it in the grave against elves, D&T, burn etc.

Your point about manaless made me chuckle. I personally think Manaless is a more robust deck than LED-dredge. Go ahead and judge me! :laugh:
I think you can be more flexible with manaless decklists than you can with LED-dredge. I've played green, blue, Spy & fearless lists.
Manaless is hard to interact with, doesn't need to resolve a single spell to win (yes I've done it through counter-top), it doesn't depend on mana or keeping cards in hand beyond turn2 either, so many maindeck strategies aren't effective at stopping it. But it IS at least a turn slower than LED-dredge, and it's not as explosive, so there's that.
P.S. I'm not that weird.... I still find LED-dredge more fun to play.:wink:

How is Driven/Despair. Seems spicy =D
Driven // Despair
Seems win-more to me.

Most of the deck is reasonably fixed. .
....
I err on the side of running quads, the exceptions being with Dread Return (singleton md), PAm (double md), dedicated Dread Return targets (none in the main), and "functionally identical" lands like City of Brass and Mana Confluence.
....
Speaking of sideboards, anyone still running Force of Will? I swear, I keep coming about an inch away from cutting it, then it totally takes over a match.
Yeah I feel pretty much the same way.
I stopped running targets (besides GGT) for my single maindeck DR ages ago and haven't looked back. DR in the main is a nice way to land extra zombats. I've found over the years playing against taxing, wasteland etc. that having a few extra lands is where I want to be, so I've typically run 13-14 lands so I can max out Coliseum without causing myself problems.

I've been a very vocal member of the *Force of Will* tribe. I'm still running it currently, but I swing between FoW and a traditional list.
Like you, I've had nights where FoW just slayed my unsuspecting my opponents and I end up winning games I don't deserve to. But I've also had whole meets where I didn't counter a single thing successfully and I ended up wondering if I'm diluting my maindeck with 4xFoW for no good reason.
So Ron, are you using it out of the side? Have you ever used it main?

Ronald Deuce
10-19-2017, 11:31 AM
Whew! Just typed a pretty long response that got lost in the aether.


What is your MD config for force in the board? and how many forces are you running in the board and how do you board? I am intrigued.

I'm on quads of all the stalwarts (except no Putrid Imp), double Amalgam, singleton Dread Return (no added targets), 13 lands. Full quad of Force in the 'board, and I've been replacing LED with it because they don't work together, but again, I'm not sure whether I'm doing it right. I've been considering putting a couple of PImps in the 'board to go full-on attrition mode; anyone tried that?


I've been a very vocal member of the *Force of Will* tribe. I'm still running it currently, but I swing between FoW and a traditional list.
Like you, I've had nights where FoW just slayed my unsuspecting my opponents and I end up winning games I don't deserve to. But I've also had whole meets where I didn't counter a single thing successfully and I ended up wondering if I'm diluting my maindeck with 4xFoW for no good reason.
So Ron, are you using it out of the side? Have you ever used it main?

I've never tried using it in the maindeck because of the LED thing. What about you? Seems pretty good if you can pull it off. I guess the best way to put it is that Force looks like it shouldn't work, except when it does. But surprise is a powerful advantage in this game, even though I feel like I shouldn't be winning when it works because it does clash with our engine to an extent.

slave
10-20-2017, 10:07 PM
What is your MD config for force in the board? and how many forces are you running in the board and how do you board? I am intrigued.
Skimming over the old thread I couldn't find a good post with (Force of Will)
Look up username "Parcher" in the old thread for a starting point. He's an experienced tourney player who has run force on occasion. I may have posted my lists also, but really there's not many differences main, and sideboard options tend to vary due to your meta.
As for what your maindeck config is - just keep your blue count as high as you can > a full suite of B-thru, CS, Narc and at least 2 Prized Amalgam.
When you side in FoW you should have at least 16 blue to support.

Boarding for me tends to be conservative. I try not to board in more than 4 or 5 cards. Meta dependent.
I tend to board dependant on what hate I expect them to play, terminal hate that stops us cold is my overall focus.
Just Rest In peace? +4 Force, -4 LED. FoW works here as RiP & Terminus are best buds so we're forced to play slow anyway, sometimes I'll bring in Serenity aswell here.
Leyline of the Void? +3 Serenity, +2 Wispmare, -4 LED, -1 Thug/something else. I run Wispmare as I see LotV & RiP a lot.
I've been riding FoW after game1 for a long while, maybe too much, mainly because I wanted to test the hell out of it. I've run it in LED-dredge for quite a while, and in manaless-blue for even longer. Few dredge players have been testing it that I know of, so it's been tough to really be unbiased about how I feel about it.
I like it, but the lower-than-optimal blue count is a sticking point for sure.


I'm on quads of all the stalwarts (except no Putrid Imp), double Amalgam, singleton Dread Return (no added targets), 13 lands. Full quad of Force in the 'board, and I've been replacing LED with it because they don't work together, but again, I'm not sure whether I'm doing it right. I've been considering putting a couple of PImps in the 'board to go full-on attrition mode; anyone tried that?
I'm considering going back to this. Force main is where I'm at right now, but after picking up my deck I realise my list compared to yours;
-1 rainbow land (12 total), -1 Icky, No pimp, -1 DR, +3 FoW.
I thought I had 1 DR, 4 FoW & 13 land in there but it seems I don't!


I've never tried using (FORCE) in the maindeck because of the LED thing. What about you? Seems pretty good if you can pull it off. I guess the best way to put it is that Force looks like it shouldn't work, except when it does. But surprise is a powerful advantage in this game, even though I feel like I shouldn't be winning when it works because it does clash with our engine to an extent.
Yeah I agree with where you're going here. I've been running 3 in the main (I thought I had 4) lately but that will probably change, the list feels too compromised, but then I've experimented with my dredge list constantly for years. FoW in the side feels like the best place for it in all the testing I've done - I feel we sacrifice too much with it in the main.

I've got a legacy night this Thursday, pretty keen as I've missed a fair few nights this year. Think I'll take this along;
4x Cephalid Coliseum
2x City of Ass
4x Gemstone Mine
3x Mana Confluence
4x Lion's Eye Diamond

4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Golgari Thug
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
2x Prized Amalgam
4x Stinkweed Imp

1x Sylvan Library
4x Bridge from Below

4x Breakthrough
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Careful Study
4x Faithless Looting
SIDE;
2 Dread Return
2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Firestorm
4 Force of Will
3 Serenity
2 Wispmare

Darkness
10-21-2017, 08:08 AM
Love the revamped Primer and glad to see a fellow GY deck getting some love and results. If it wasn't for the LEDs I'd invest into the deck again as it is super cheap and the boogyman of the format.

Vissah
10-24-2017, 01:23 AM
Hey everyone,

My name is Vissah and I am looking to start up Legacy LED Dredge.
I been playing Modern Dredge for a while now and it is by far the most fun style of deck I ever played but we all know how Modern goes.
The constant talks and pressure of the banhammer that hangs above that format is starting to bother me more and more and let`s not start about all the constant negativity and complaining seen in the Modern community.

Now I am feeling happy because there is only one expensive card in the for of Lion`s Eye Diamond and I already have a lot of Dredge cards because I been playing it in Modern does make the step into Legacy easier for me.
I have to admit I am a little bit intimadated by starting Legacy because I think it is a pretty intimidating format. I been playing Modern since I started playing Magic and Modern was only a year old when I got into it so I know most of the Modern cards and deck names and all that.

Now to the fun part.

I really like the look of the Quadlazer Dredge decks. I just love decks that play mostly four offs but I would really like to include a Dread Return with a nice big fatty in the main because I think that is cool to play.

Anyway is the Quadlazer version a viable option and yes what would you take out of you want to include a Dread Return and some sort of fatty/combo element?

Thanks.

slave
10-24-2017, 07:43 PM
(Modern) the constant talks and pressure of the banhammer that hangs above that format is starting to bother me more and more and let`s not start about all the constant negativity and complaining seen in the Modern community.
Welcome aboard Vissah.
To be honest, legacy isn't much different. The difference as I see it, is that the larger card pool enables rogue decks to cause a splash on occasion. Dredge can be like that.... kinda, but mainly due to graveyard decks being less effective (outside Reanimator) or prevalent than they used to. The upside of that, is that not every opponent will run terminal hate. The most common hate I see is easily Surgical Extraction.


Anyway is the Quadlazer version a viable option and yes what would you take out of you want to include a Dread Return and some sort of fatty/combo element?
Many people say the quadlazer version is the best. I ran it for quite some time, and its definitely a great place to start.
Personally, if you want to include a fatty/DR element, I'd try drop 2 Pimp 1st, or 2 Bthru 2nd, and experiment from there.
Just bear in mind, DR targeting a GGT is a decent play a lot of the time.

Vissah
10-25-2017, 12:13 AM
Welcome aboard Vissah.
To be honest, legacy isn't much different. The difference as I see it, is that the larger card pool enables rogue decks to cause a splash on occasion. Dredge can be like that.... kinda, but mainly due to graveyard decks being less effective (outside Reanimator) or prevalent than they used to. The upside of that, is that not every opponent will run terminal hate. The most common hate I see is easily Surgical Extraction.

Many people say the quadlazer version is the best. I ran it for quite some time, and its definitely a great place to start.
Personally, if you want to include a fatty/DR element, I'd try drop 2 Pimp 1st, or 2 Bthru 2nd, and experiment from there.
Just bear in mind, DR targeting a GGT is a decent play a lot of the time.

Thanks for the response mate.

I think I will be getting the cards for the Quadlaser build because I think that will be a good starting place.
I just like to play Magic and I don`t have that much time to attend FNM anymore but on a Saturday my local store almost always holds a Legacy tournament.

Anyway I will be keeping a look at this site and this thread for information.

Thanks.

slave
10-27-2017, 02:24 AM
Okay so I went to the local last night. My list is only a few posts previous.
I went 4-1 !! :laugh:
I got lucky and dodged the eldrazi & BUG players! :smile:
Beat ANT 2-1, Mono-R Painted-Stone 2-0, UW Miracles 2-1 & some mono-blue combo deck I don't know what he was doin? 2-0.
Lost to D&T 0-2 c/o Helm/RiP combo in the main, I couldn't find an answer in game2.
I was lucky to beat ANT, I usually struggle to beat them even though I usually enjoy a race.
I ran a single Sylvan Library main to test against humans. This time I got to actually use it twice, I sided it out at every opportunity.
It was good, but only because I got 2 lands in my hand. In future it's a cut, although it was kinda cool to land it and go-mini-griselbrand.

On the ANT matchup;
What do you guys usually name (with therapy) for that opponent?
I usually name rituals early, by t3-4 I tend to go for the Tutor. I'm not sure if this is what I should be trying to do, as my winning% against this guy is abysmal.
Thoughts?

Que
10-27-2017, 02:44 PM
On the ANT matchup;
What do you guys usually name (with therapy) for that opponent?
I usually name rituals early, by t3-4 I tend to go for the Tutor. I'm not sure if this is what I should be trying to do, as my winning% against this guy is abysmal.
Thoughts?

Against ANT I would have normally named Infernal Tutor, but with the help of PIF its made that line much worse because they can get themselves into a position to flashback and win viably. I would be more inclined nowadays to name LED if they have elected to not just drop it onto the battlefield right away (sucks for them trying to save it for storm count). This card not only gives them the mana they need, but it allows them to go Hellbent turning on Infernal Tutor; there are games where they will be stuck with either multiple lands, several cantrips, or have to cabal therapy themselves to go hellbent which is much worse and takes more time. So I would name LED, Infernal Tutor, Dark Rituals and go from there.


EDIT: Obviously you will have anecdotal games where if you would have named the rituals you would have won, but imo that doesn't mean thats what you name. They're less likely to have rituals into Ad Naseum/Dark Petition than they are of having Rituals into Infernal Tutor. Hope that makes sense. xD

SHABOOGS
10-27-2017, 10:12 PM
I normally name Dark Ritual against Storm because they usually start with that card when going off in my experience.

RThomas-
10-28-2017, 04:49 PM
The primer is excellent, but the lack of sample lists is unfortunate. I understand not wanting to tell people 'this is the way to play this deck', but someone new to the deck is, almost by definition, poorly placed to tell whether any given net-deck is a good place to start or not.

Any chance you could update the primer with a few solid examples? If you really don't want to do that, what about linking to a few (relatively current) examples that would be a good starting point?

#return

I would encourage you to get into contact with regular Dredge pilots. I say this because you will not (unfortunately) find many examples of Dredge decks if you peruse lists on Star City or mtgtop8.com. The reason for this is because the Dredge pilots you find on those sites have either (a) responded to their metagame well enough to place, (b) are hardcore Dredge players (all the more reason), or (c) have been lucky (goddamnit). Send a message to us. Mike, Parcher, Joseph (Que), slave, myself, or others that are regulars here are excited to share our secrets and experiences with you. I can't speak for others, but for me this mechanic and this archetype is a project we have worked our asses off to better, usually to no recognition. We WANT you to enjoy it like we do!

As for the FOW argument, I'm pretty close to agreement with slave's argument. I don't like it in my list (on page 1) because I'm not playing Careful Study. I want about 15-16 cards to support it, even though I'm casting it a max of one time in my post-board matches. I find I like my other catch-all responses (Wear/Tear, Wispmare, Nature's Claim, etc.) good enough to put in place for it. There are some times I don't want to hold all those cards in my hand to enable it. There are some times it just doesn't matter. In my experience, I'm holding it for Surgical Extraction (which we play around), or Containment Priest (which either dies to Firestorm or doesn't die). This goes back to point 1 above: go by your own experience.

Good discussion. More more more.

Vissah
10-29-2017, 11:03 PM
I went out last Saturday to get started with my deck.

This is what I made up. It is a standard Quadlaser deck with 1 Dread Return because I think that card is really cool.
I am thinking of taking out Street Wraith and replace them with 2 Prized Amalgam and 2 Careful Study.

You guys think I can start learning the format with this deck and also got a good chance to win some games left and right?

LANDS
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence

CREATURES
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith

INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
1 Dread Return

8 OTHER SPELLS
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

SIDEBOARD
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ashen Rider
1 Dread Return
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Faerie Macabre
4 Firestorm
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Nature's Claim

Que
10-30-2017, 03:19 PM
I went out last Saturday to get started with my deck.

This is what I made up. It is a standard Quadlaser deck with 1 Dread Return because I think that card is really cool.
I am thinking of taking out Street Wraith and replace them with 2 Prized Amalgam and 2 Careful Study.

You guys think I can start learning the format with this deck and also got a good chance to win some games left and right?

LANDS
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence

CREATURES
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith

INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
1 Dread Return

8 OTHER SPELLS
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

SIDEBOARD
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ashen Rider
1 Dread Return
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Faerie Macabre
4 Firestorm
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Nature's Claim

If I was going to play Quadlazer today I would probably replace all four Breakthrough for the Street Wraith rather than cut all the Careful Study. Sure Study is weaker but its more efficient in what you need the deck to be doing. Losing Breakthrough sucks, but you make up for some of the power lost through sheer speed with Street Wraith allowing you to Careful Study/Faithless/Putrid Imp turn one and start dredging right away. You can also run into a sample situation where you don't have any lands, but you have LED, Street Wraith, Faithless Looting and at least 1 dredger where you can drop the LED, Cycle Street Wraith retaining priority and Saccing the LED for red mana and allowing you to dredge off the Street Wraith for an extra dredge before you flashback faithless looting. :)

The only concern in the sideboard I have is the lonely 2 Nature's Claim. Sure you have 2 grudge, but those only hit artifacts and they don't reasonably handle Graffdiggers Cage. I would at the very least cut either a Grudge (but only if your meta is light on Stompy/heavy artifacts) or a firestorm to include the 3rd claim. Or include something like Chain of Vapor which is a pseudo answer and more versatile across other matchups like Reanimator.

Vissah
10-31-2017, 12:32 AM
If I was going to play Quadlazer today I would probably replace all four Breakthrough for the Street Wraith rather than cut all the Careful Study. Sure Study is weaker but its more efficient in what you need the deck to be doing. Losing Breakthrough sucks, but you make up for some of the power lost through sheer speed with Street Wraith allowing you to Careful Study/Faithless/Putrid Imp turn one and start dredging right away. You can also run into a sample situation where you don't have any lands, but you have LED, Street Wraith, Faithless Looting and at least 1 dredger where you can drop the LED, Cycle Street Wraith retaining priority and Saccing the LED for red mana and allowing you to dredge off the Street Wraith for an extra dredge before you flashback faithless looting. :)

The only concern in the sideboard I have is the lonely 2 Nature's Claim. Sure you have 2 grudge, but those only hit artifacts and they don't reasonably handle Graffdiggers Cage. I would at the very least cut either a Grudge (but only if your meta is light on Stompy/heavy artifacts) or a firestorm to include the 3rd claim. Or include something like Chain of Vapor which is a pseudo answer and more versatile across other matchups like Reanimator.

WOW!

Thanks for all the advice and the help I have been given in the short time I am on this forum. I really appreciate it a lot thanks.

Now to business, I have 4 Nature`s Claim so putting one or two more in there won`t be a problem.
I am also thinking of mixing up the numbers in time because that is the fun a tweaking a deck to how you like to play it, atleast for me it is.
What I always like to do is play with a sideboard that has cards that are good against all matchups, been doing that in Modern for a while, and it really makes you play better because you are using the cards a lot.

The Diamonds will be the last cards for me to buy because of the price but in the meantime I will be playing some against friends just to get a good feel for the deck. Don`t worry the Diamonds will definitly come because I want something other then only having a Modern deck to play with.

If I have more questions you will defintly find me here :D

Pische
11-01-2017, 02:17 PM
Hi friends,
I started to play this deck last week and I have way too many questions.
Let's say the most important ones regard sideboarding.
I seem to get it always wrong. Is there a secret way if doing it?

KaiSchafroth
11-01-2017, 03:55 PM
Hi friends,
I started to play this deck last week and I have way too many questions.
Let's say the most important ones regard sideboarding.
I seem to get it always wrong. Is there a secret way if doing it?

As with a lot of decks; a good amount of 'figuring it out' comes with playing. It sucks but there is a difference in reading and being able to intuit lines of play, sideboarding, etc.
There might be others that I don't have bookmarked/remember but I know Parcher wrote a guide in the old thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23432-Deck-Dredge&p=814446&viewfull=1#post814446). That being said - a guide is just that.
I would suggest, as lame of a 'homework' assignment as this seems, to look at that guide and determine why those suggestions are being made. e.g. are the cards coming out slower than what you can bring in? Does the normal MD configuration just keep you from really executing an effective game plan?

Pische
11-01-2017, 04:39 PM
Thanks for the reply!
My main concern is how much anti-hate should I bring in and how explosive should my plan be in g2.
Of course what you say is true, experience is more important than reading a guide, but I recall my early days in learning Miracles by reading the Schoenegger sideboarding guide and that helped me a lot in figuring out the different plans after sideboard.
Thanks for the link by the way, I'll jump into it!

MagicGuy
11-01-2017, 08:41 PM
Hey all, I'm a noob to the deck and need help. So when combat damage resolves and my opponent and I have critters going to the graveyard, how does the stacking of triggers work with bridge in the graveyard. It's my combat turn. Thanks.

trinkets
11-01-2017, 09:07 PM
Hey all, I'm a noob to the deck and need help. So when combat damage resolves and my opponent and I have critters going to the graveyard, how does the stacking of triggers work with bridge in the graveyard. It's my combat turn. Thanks.

The triggers go to the stack at the same time, so you can order them in any way you like. Most likely you'll want to put his triggers on the stack first, and all of yours after, so that your triggers resolve first. Kinda like this:

A - trigger from enemy creature going to the yard (remove bridge)
B - trigger from enemy creature going to the yard (remove bridge)
Y - trigger from your enemy creature going to the yard (create token)
Z - trigger from your enemy creature going to the yard (create token)

The stack should look like this:


A goes to the stack:

"A - remove bridge"

B goes to the stack:

"B - remove bridge"
"A - remove bridge"

Y goes to the stack:

"Y - create token"
"B - remove bridge"
"A - remove bridge"

Z goes to the stack:

"Z - create token"
"Y - create token"
"B - remove bridge"
"A - remove bridge"


At this point, if both players pass priority, the first item on the stack will resolve, meaning resolving Z will net you a token.
After resolving Z trigger, the next item on the stack is the Y trigger, and you get another token.
After you get all your tokens, you resolve the triggers for removing the bridges due to an enemy creature hitting the graveyard; triggers A and B respectively.

tl;dr - all the bridge triggers go to the stack at the same time, so you can arrange them in the order that benefits you the most.

MagicGuy
11-01-2017, 09:24 PM
The triggers go to the stack at the same time, so you can order them in any way you like. Most likely you'll want to put his triggers on the stack first, and all of yours after, so that your triggers resolve first. Kinda like this:

A - trigger from enemy creature going to the yard (remove bridge)
B - trigger from enemy creature going to the yard (remove bridge)
Y - trigger from your enemy creature going to the yard (create token)
Z - trigger from your enemy creature going to the yard (create token)

The stack should look like this:


A goes to the stack:

"A - remove bridge"

B goes to the stack:

"B - remove bridge"
"A - remove bridge"

Y goes to the stack:

"Y - create token"
"B - remove bridge"
"A - remove bridge"

Z goes to the stack:

"Z - create token"
"Y - create token"
"B - remove bridge"
"A - remove bridge"


At this point, if both players pass priority, the first item on the stack will resolve, meaning resolving Z will net you a token.
After resolving Z trigger, the next item on the stack is the Y trigger, and you get another token.
After you get all your tokens, you resolve the triggers for removing the bridges due to an enemy creature hitting the graveyard; triggers A and B respectively.

tl;dr - all the bridge triggers go to the stack at the same time, so you can arrange them in the order that benefits you the most.
Awesome, thank you for that quick response! That's how it played out tonight. My opponent looked at me like "what." I looked at him like "I think so", had to admit it seemed totally not fair. I'll take it though. Also resolved Firestorm for the first time tonight (on end of turn) untaped played Breakthrough and went off. I feel like the hardest parts of the deck are; A: NOT missing triggers and B: when to mulligan/not mulligan. Not all hands are LED, Faithless Looting, blah blah blah.

Ronald Deuce
11-02-2017, 11:22 AM
Thanks for the reply!
My main concern is how much anti-hate should I bring in and how explosive should my plan be in g2.

I have a similar dilemma pretty much every time I play the deck. (Chalk it up to my not really knowing what I'm doing.) In my experience, we need to do one of two things: either stop cold our opponent's hate/deck plan, or just go faster than they can and take advantage of the fact that the only deck with better mulligans than ours is All Spells.

I usually either side in 4x Force in place of LEDs or a second Dread Return and a big guy/FKZ in place of two PAms. I haven't had a lot of success with other plans, though it feels really weird to leave Fragmentize/Nature's Claim in the sideboard even when there's a significant chance the opponent is bringing dedicated grave-hate like Leyline or Cage.

Maybe I've just missed it, but I've been looking for info on how many sideboard cards we can realistically afford to run without diluting the deck and drawing awful piles. Anybody have some insight on this?

[EDIT: A major problem to which I keep returning is that without deck manipulation, we're relying on our mulligans pretty heavily if we expect to be casting anti-hate from our hand. So a quad of something often feels like it's not enough to me, but whenever I used to try 'boarding more than four or five cards, everything came apart at the seams.]

ThomasDowd
11-02-2017, 02:31 PM
I have a similar dilemma pretty much every time I play the deck. (Chalk it up to my not really knowing what I'm doing.) In my experience, we need to do one of two things: either stop cold our opponent's hate/deck plan, or just go faster than they can and take advantage of the fact that the only deck with better mulligans than ours is All Spells.

I usually either side in 4x Force in place of LEDs or a second Dread Return and a big guy/FKZ in place of two PAms. I haven't had a lot of success with other plans, though it feels really weird to leave Fragmentize/Nature's Claim in the sideboard even when there's a significant chance the opponent is bringing dedicated grave-hate like Leyline or Cage.

Maybe I've just missed it, but I've been looking for info on how many sideboard cards we can realistically afford to run without diluting the deck and drawing awful piles. Anybody have some insight on this?

[EDIT: A major problem to which I keep returning is that without deck manipulation, we're relying on our mulligans pretty heavily if we expect to be casting anti-hate from our hand. So a quad of something often feels like it's not enough to me, but whenever I used to try 'boarding more than four or five cards, everything came apart at the seams.]


Careful study/ looting also dig for anti hate if you are going that route, effectively trying to find a 4-of in ~11 cards (on the draw and able to cast it) if your study/looting resolves and you can cast it. Mathing it out: Hypergeometric calculators put it at ~ 56% for >=1.

and then your anti hate needs to resolve.

EDIT: hyper geo calculator I used:http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/hypergeometric.aspx

Que
11-02-2017, 04:37 PM
WOW!

Thanks for all the advice and the help I have been given in the short time I am on this forum. I really appreciate it a lot thanks.

Now to business, I have 4 Nature`s Claim so putting one or two more in there won`t be a problem.
I am also thinking of mixing up the numbers in time because that is the fun a tweaking a deck to how you like to play it, atleast for me it is.
What I always like to do is play with a sideboard that has cards that are good against all matchups, been doing that in Modern for a while, and it really makes you play better because you are using the cards a lot.

The Diamonds will be the last cards for me to buy because of the price but in the meantime I will be playing some against friends just to get a good feel for the deck. Don`t worry the Diamonds will definitly come because I want something other then only having a Modern deck to play with.

If I have more questions you will defintly find me here :D

No worries. Alternatively I have seen another iteration of the traditional Quadlazer build. This might be closer to what you're looking for since it has shown the most recent success in a competitive setting (2 Trophies & 1 Legacy Challenge top 8 in October alone). The list is used by user Orim67 on MTGO (not sure if he has an account on here) where its 4x of everything except he/she cut out all the Careful Study and replaced them with Street Wraith which was opposite of what I was suggesting as I would have cut out all the Breakthrough instead. Either way I would encourage you to try out different things and see what you're comfortable with and also consult your meta. :)

List of Orim67:
http://www.mtgtop8.com/search?player=Orim67

slave
11-03-2017, 04:14 AM
(what strategy? sideboarding) I have a similar dilemma pretty much every time I play the deck. (Chalk it up to my not really knowing what I'm doing.) In my experience, we need to do one of two things: either stop cold our opponent's hate/deck plan, or just go faster than they can and take advantage of the fact that the only deck with better mulligans than ours is All Spells.
This :wink:
In quite a few matchups, gravehate is minimal. Surgical Extraction is the most common one I see. Some decks rely on that alone for gravehate.
If this is the only hate you're expecting, I'll typically keep my Breakthrough's and Putrid Imp's in the main and go all-out race, with a mind to land as much pressure on the board as quickly as I can before they find a second Surg.
Whilst Putrid Imp is just ok against extraction, Street wraith is better at playing thru extraction.
If I'm up against proper hate (RiP, LotV, Cage] that is terminal, I side. If it's not proper hate, and it's possible for us to still land enough pressure to win, I would suggest you consider racing (opposition dependent). Just bear in mind more than anything else, the decks main strength postboard is Cabal Therapy. It's my plan A to take away from them whatever I fear the most.

Vissah
11-03-2017, 08:25 AM
No worries. Alternatively I have seen another iteration of the traditional Quadlazer build. This might be closer to what you're looking for since it has shown the most recent success in a competitive setting (2 Trophies & 1 Legacy Challenge top 8 in October alone). The list is used by user Orim67 on MTGO (not sure if he has an account on here) where its 4x of everything except he/she cut out all the Careful Study and replaced them with Street Wraith which was opposite of what I was suggesting as I would have cut out all the Breakthrough instead. Either way I would encourage you to try out different things and see what you're comfortable with and also consult your meta. :)

List of Orim67:
http://www.mtgtop8.com/search?player=Orim67

Yeah I been checking out varies decks and testing some online and I am figuring out more and more what I like to play.
I won`t be playing the Quadlaser build for now because I like the otherone I been trying out better. Now I just need to get a couple more cards and I can see how I do at my local store.

Only thing I am not sure about is the amount of lands. Now I am playing with 12 and sometimes I am trying 13 but for now I feel that 12 is enough.

PuppyWuppy
11-03-2017, 10:29 AM
Yeah I been checking out varies decks and testing some online and I am figuring out more and more what I like to play.
I won`t be playing the Quadlaser build for now because I like the otherone I been trying out better. Now I just need to get a couple more cards and I can see how I do at my local store.

Only thing I am not sure about is the amount of lands. Now I am playing with 12 and sometimes I am trying 13 but for now I feel that 12 is enough.

I think the land base is mostly preferred to the player itself on how they want to build the deck. I'm running 12 in mine, but am also running street wraith as well.

potatodavid
11-03-2017, 10:39 AM
Played dredge last night for the first time in many many moons. The deck just completely crapped out on me every chance it got. Not ready to give up but definitely will be tweaking my list.

Orim67
11-12-2017, 06:11 PM
Hey, I'm Orim67 on mtgo. I just got into top 8 of the legacy challenge, just to get rekt vs U/B Reanimator. I can go over the replays tomorrow if you are interested.

RabaShai
11-12-2017, 10:50 PM
i would like to see you go over the replays

Que
11-13-2017, 01:32 AM
Hey, I'm Orim67 on mtgo. I just got into top 8 of the legacy challenge, just to get rekt vs U/B Reanimator. I can go over the replays tomorrow if you are interested.

Yo Congrats bro. You been tearing it up. Yeah I feel like the Reanimator matchup is atrocious unless you're actually packing the full set of Leylines in the board.

How often do you miss Careful Study? Obviously the strengths of street wraith goes without saying, but I was curious as to whether you occasionally missed the Draw & Discard that only it and Faithless Looting provide. Also do you feel like a full set of Street Wraith is necessary at this point?

Orim67
11-13-2017, 02:43 PM
As you might know, I've had much success with Dredge on MTGO. After I saw the fantastic tournament report of Kap'n Cook and saw that the deck costed just 130 tix, I just copied the list and cashed almost every league after that. I finally got into top eight of a legacy challenge after 3 tries.

Here is the list:

4 Mana Confluence
4 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass
2 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Putrid Imp
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Street Wraith
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough

4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge From Below

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug

Sideboard:

2 Dread Return
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Ashen Rider
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Memory's Journey
4 Firestorm
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Wear/Tear

Round 1 vs Ecoscuro on Sneak and Derp

Game 1

I am on the draw and keep LED, Street Wraith, Therapy, 2 Dredgers and a PImp hoping to find a Land off the Scry. I thought that he was on some chalice deck, so I kept. He went Island, go. I didn't find a land, even off the SW cycle and was afraid of counters, so I said go. Fast forward, I discarded to handsize and slowdredged a bunch and Opp played a Blood Moon t4 and Brainstorm locked himself t7 and died to ichorid beats. Pretty lucky that he just drew counters mana and blood moon that game.

Game 2

SB: +2 Dread Return +Ashen Rider +Iona -2 Ichorid -PImp -SW
I keep PImp, SW, City, Looting, Breakthrough, Narc, Bridge. I topdeck a dredger and my first PImp gets forced. Then I draw anothed PImp and I cycle SW to dredge a Narc. Opp casts Clasm and I discard Bridge for two free zombies. He counters my looting, but dies on t4 to an Ichorid and the Zombies from the Clasm. It was pretty helpful that my Opp never got a fast hand in both games.

Record: 1:0
Round 2 vs Kantarelkongen on U/R Delver

Game 1

I lost the die roll again, but keep a hand of 2 Dredgers, SW, LED, Bridge, Therapy, Looting and a City was waiting on the top of my deck. He taps a Land to Ponder and I tap a Land and sac LED to do the thing that wins games. I even get to take a look at his 3 Dazes +Stormchaser Mage before he concedes.

Game 2

SB:+Ancient Grudge -Thug
I mull and keep Breakthrough, Mine, LED, Dredger, SW, Ichorid. Opp goes turn1 Swiftspear and I breakthrough cracking LED and cycling SW and dredge a bunch. When I therapied, he showed me a FoW! and concedes after that. So that was weird.

Record: 2:0

Round 3 vs oRS on U/B Standstill

He streamed the match, you can find it here at 01:48:00 https://go.twitch.tv/videos/200714634

Game 1

I'm on the play and keep 2 gold, PImp, SW, LED , Breakthrough. He concedes on turn two after he wastelands me.

Game 2

I didn't sideboard and I keep a "Belcher Hand" but he has a Leyline of the Void in his opening 7. I scoop to his first colored land.

Game 3

SB: +3 Tear, -1 Ichorid, -1 Thug, -1 LED
I mull to five and keep PImp, Therapy, City, Coliseum, Breakthrough. Opp mulls to 6 and drops a Leyline but doesn't have a land yet. I play Pimp t1, topdeck a Tear t2 and therapy his FoW away. Turn 3 I draw a land and Tear his leyline in response to him Fatal Pushing my PImp (He found a USea). Next turn I Breakthrough for one and find a dredger and keep a land in hand. After that i go ham with coliseum and he can't recover with his two factories, snapy and medium removal. Therapy apparently messes with the replays, so some games won't be as detailed.

Record: 3:0

Round 4 vs Zirina on Miracles

He streamed the match, you can find it here at 03:36:39 https://go.twitch.tv/videos/200702169

Game 1

I'm on the draw and keep 5 cards containing SW, 2 Lootings, Troll and Narc hoping to find a Land off the Scry. But I find sth better: LED! He plays a fetch and passes and I cycle SW, crack LED and flashback Looting. He concedes to the first Therapy.

Game 2
Sb: +2 Firestorms, -2 LED. I expected Containment Priest but I didn't want to board too much.
I keep a good 7 with 2gold, PImp, Breakthrough, Stinkweed, Ichorid and a Therapy. But my Opp drops a Containment Priest on t2 and I tunnel vision on finding a firestorm the whole game because he never seemed to have much countermagic and I found many looting effects and some Breakthroughs. I never found a firestorm to activate my Ichorids and in hindsight I could have won the game if I started hardcasting creatures and dredging into bridges and therapies.

Game 3

I keep the deck like in game 2 and we both mull to 5. I have 2 Therapies, 2 Breakthroughs, City and scry a City on top. T1 I Therapy naming Brainstorm, so my second Therapy can get the scariest card. I hit and he shows me a Containment Priest, which gets discarded on turn 2. On turn 3 I breakthrough for 1 and find a dredger and keep a Coliseum in hand. I crack the Coliseum on t4 and Zirina could not recover after I made some zombies and discarded a terminus.

Record: 4:0

Round 5 vs Dan9IN on 4c Pile

Game 1

I mull to 4 and keep 2 Looting, SW, Therapy and scry a grave troll to the top. He Inquisitions me on t1 and takes my Therapy. I cycle SW and find a LED, so I could discard my hand and flashback Lootings. I didn't find a second dredger, but dredged two Narcs. I wanted to wait on the therapies because I didn't have any Bridges in the Yard. He drops a Drs on t2 but couldn't find a green source. While I slow dredged I didn't hit any bridges and only one ichorid for too many turns. The second Drs and removal on my Narcs without bridges were too much.

Game 2
SB: +Memory's Journey +4 Firestorm -2 LED -2 PImps - Thug . I used to cut all LEDs in this MU but I wanted to try keep some in to see how often I actually get punished for going all in in sb games. LED is just too powerful to cut when my Opp can keep a hand because it has Drs and cantrips in it.

I keep a good hand with 2 gold, Troll, SW, Breakthrough and Bridge, ready to crush any Drs. But he just plays a Nihil Spellbomb on turn one. This replay is broken, because I Therapied him for force t2. I forced him to use the spellbomb t3 and I couldn't rebuild with Breakthrough after that, because it got countered I think. He most likely got a DrS online after that too and the game was basically over.

Record: 4:1

Round 6 vs DNSolver on Oozing Reanimator

I had to win this Round to get into top8 , but I didn't like my chances going into this match, because his combo is faster than mine.

Game 1

I'm on the play and keep Mine, PImp, Breakthrough Looting, Narc and 2 Dredgers. On t1 I play PImp and pass. He plays land and probes. On t2 I Breakthrough and hit only one Narc and one Therapy and no bridges. I therapy him and he brainstorms in response, so I name Dark Ritual because he would have played Entomb and Dark Rit is needed for fast kills. When he shows me the hand, the relevant cards are: Brainstorm, Petal, 2 Lands, Collective Brutality. Well, next turn he Brainstorms and somehow gets to Exhume a Griselbrand and I show him a very big Troll. He draws 14 cards, finds two Petals, but can't get anything going, so my troll, PImp and Two Ichorids are exactly lethal.

Game 2

SB: +2 Dread Return, +2 Faerie Macabre, + Iona, + Ashen Rider, + Memory's Journey , -2 Pimps, - Thug, -2 Ichorid, -2 Street Wraith,
I keep 2 gold, LED, PImp, Faerie Macabre!, Narc and Ichorid. He Ponders t1 and I topdeck a Dredger and play PImp and LED. He goes for a Reanimate on Griselbrand, but Faerie Macabre exiles the big Demon.
I find a looting and the Memory's Journey off the first dredge and my Opp scoops after I was able to find meaningful Pressure with the flashbacked Looting.

I was 5:1 and locked into top 8 after that.

Quarterfinals vs YENKO88 on U/B Reanimator

Game 1

He is on the play and Reanimates Elesh Norn on t2.

Game 2

I am on the play and play Looting and discard two dredgers. He goes land, go. I dredge and hit narc and Therapy. I therapy him and he entombs for Norn again and Forces the Therapy to protect a reanimation spell. I cast breakthrough and dredge a bunch and discard a memory's journey out of my hand. I didn't hit any Therapies but I cast Journey on his Elesh Norn on my turn to play around Daze + Animate Dead or a topdecked counter.

Game 3

He reanimates a Griselbrand on t2 and I can't resolve my draw spells trough his Daze + FoW after he drew 7 cards. But I got to dredge into my Iona, that he got to bring back to life with Animate Dead.
I couldn't beat the Tag-Team of a big flying Angel and lifelinking scary Demon and scooped.


There were some weird games and skillful topdecks involved, but I think that Dredge is very well positioned right now. Most fair decks rely on surgicals or 2 Mana Hatepieces. We can power through surgicals and we can race/discard 2 mana cards. People still like to surgical Dredgers and sometimes you can just get them with a street wraith.

I thought about changing my list and trying out some Careful Studies because you can then get away with the full set of Coliseums, which are busted in this deck. But when you cut gold lands, you can't cast Imps as reliably which are very synergistic with SW.

Darkness
11-13-2017, 08:31 PM
@Orim67 how does the deck feel against the DRS meta?

Kap'n Cook
11-13-2017, 09:11 PM
@Orim67 how does the deck feel against the DRS meta?


I think that Dredge is very well positioned right now

Reading is tech

Oestrus
11-14-2017, 12:32 AM
Hey, I'm Orim67 on mtgo. I just got into top 8 of the legacy challenge, just to get rekt vs U/B Reanimator. I can go over the replays tomorrow if you are interested.

Well done, friend. I've been following your work, and am eager to try your list out for myself. :-)

Whitefaces
11-14-2017, 05:32 AM
Cheers for the report and nice one on your recent success. I've been on a bit of a dredge high recently and also feel like it's very well positioned with people mostly just playing DRS and Surgicals + Snaps, not hard to grind through.

Since the meta is quite fair at the moment I've liked a couple of Prized Amalgams too, have you tried them at all?

Vissah
11-14-2017, 06:36 AM
Thanks for the report a very nice read.

I love the faces of those guys in the stream when they see you playing Dredge game 1.
They just look so hopeless.

Whitefaces
11-14-2017, 07:02 AM
Thanks for the report a very nice read.

I love the faces of those guys in the stream when they see you playing Dredge game 1.
They just look so hopeless.

Haha, I enjoyed this too. I played Modern dredge a couple of weekends ago at MKM Barcelona and got very similar reactions for at least half the matches it felt like. People are really unprepared for the deck in both formats.

I'm playing your list Orim at my LGS tonight. I usually play some Careful Studies and the full set of Coliseums, this is the first time I'll try Wraith actually. Will report back how it goes.

Kap'n Cook
11-14-2017, 10:28 AM
Since the meta is quite fair at the moment I've liked a couple of Prized Amalgams too, have you tried them at all?

Dabbled with an amalgam in the board for a little bit and it was okay, not terrible not amazing either. This build is focused around max ichorid consistency with the 8 extra black cards in the wraiths and pimps, so I think the amalgam would have to be the 5th rather than replacing the last ichorid. In terms of surgical extraction, having the pimps as extra bridge fodder post board lessens the need for amalgam in the case of ichorid getting extracted. I'd say 1 in the board if you have room for it is fine, but with how prevalent reanimator is I think the yard hate is more worthwhile.

In relation to the bluer builds with studies and coliseums, I would say they are more consistent in terms of opening hand keeps because of the extra looting and dig effects and better at blowing the game open on turn 2 regularly, where the black build is better at subtle grinding and staying underneath a lot of hate. Just depends on the preferred playstyle really I think

Whitefaces
11-14-2017, 10:43 AM
Dabbled with an amalgam in the board for a little bit and it was okay, not terrible not amazing either. This build is focused around max ichorid consistency with the 8 extra black cards in the wraiths and pimps, so I think the amalgam would have to be the 5th rather than replacing the last ichorid. In terms of surgical extraction, having the pimps as extra bridge fodder post board lessens the need for amalgam in the case of ichorid getting extracted. I'd say 1 in the board if you have room for it is fine, but with how prevalent reanimator is I think the yard hate is more worthwhile.

In relation to the bluer builds with studies and coliseums, I would say they are more consistent in terms of opening hand keeps because of the extra looting and dig effects and better at blowing the game open on turn 2 regularly, where the black build is better at subtle grinding and staying underneath a lot of hate. Just depends on the preferred playstyle really I think

That makes sense, cheers for the insight.

Orim67
11-14-2017, 06:26 PM
Thanks guys, the last few days have been especially good to me.
I tried Michael Keller's list, too, and I missed the street wraiths and had to mull a lot because coliseum only produced blue mana. But I think that the amalgams have potential and maindeck ashen rider was relevant in some games. Mtgo might have more Drs decks than tournaments, which led to making the black version more successful.
Today, I threw together a list with 3 SW, 2 PImps, 3 Studies, 3 Breakthroughs, 3 Ichorids, 4 Coliseums, 2 Amalgams and a Lotus Petal as the 13th land and somehow 5-0ed the first league with it. I hope that it gets posted. I like Petals, when you have many looting effects.

Whitefaces
11-14-2017, 06:59 PM
Thanks guys, the last few days have been especially good to me.
I tried Michael Keller's list, too, and I missed the street wraiths and had to mull a lot because coliseum only produced blue mana. But I think that the amalgams have potential and maindeck ashen rider was relevant in some games. Mtgo might have more Drs decks than tournaments, which led to making the black version more successful.
Today, I threw together a list with 3 SW, 2 PImps, 3 Studies, 3 Breakthroughs, 3 Ichorids, 4 Coliseums, 2 Amalgams and a Lotus Petal as the 13th land and somehow 5-0ed the first league with it. I hope that it gets posted. I like Petals, when you have many looting effects.

Very nice! I also had a good run at my store this evening going 4-0 beating Tin Fins, DnT and then GB Pox twice...killed 5 leylines!

I like the sound of these numbers a lot. I was thinking this evening while playing about trying to move more towards a blue core as Coliseums are so insane, but retaining SWs and PImps like you've just said. I've felt like another land would be useful too for this, do you think a Petal is better than a City of Brass? I've only had them in the sideboard before and were nice, but this direction feels less explosive and better to grind.

I think I'll play close to this next time

3 Putrid Imp
3 Breakthrough
4 Faithless Looting
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Street Wraith
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Prized Amalgam
2 Careful Study
3 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll

4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Mana Confluence
1 City of Brass

4 Wear//Tear
2 Dread Return
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Ashen Rider
3 Firestorm
1 Lotus Petal
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Memory's Journey

Pische
11-15-2017, 05:01 AM
Very nice! I also had a good run at my store this evening going 4-0 beating Tin Fins, DnT and then GB Pox twice...killed 5 leylines!

I like the sound of these numbers a lot. I was thinking this evening while playing about trying to move more towards a blue core as Coliseums are so insane, but retaining SWs and PImps like you've just said. I've felt like another land would be useful too for this, do you think a Petal is better than a City of Brass? I've only had them in the sideboard before and were nice, but this direction feels less explosive and better to grind.

I think I'll play close to this next time

3 Putrid Imp
3 Breakthrough
4 Faithless Looting
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Street Wraith
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Prized Amalgam
2 Careful Study
3 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll

4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Mana Confluence
1 City of Brass

4 Wear//Tear
2 Dread Return
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Ashen Rider
3 Firestorm
1 Lotus Petal
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Memory's Journey

Hi Whitefaces, I see we find ourselves again on the same side after some months with the good old loved Miracles.
I'm testing a very similar list, without SW and I'm willing to try them out, so I'll basically just copy yours for this week.
My question is: do you find yourself siding in Memory's journey just as protection against surgical or do you bring it in only against graveyard decks?
Also the deck seems really tight, If you would have to bring in the whole dread return packet with Iona and I suppose a petal against combo, what would you take out? I would guess like this, but I'm not sure: +2DR +Iona + Petal -City -PImp -2Amalgam

Whitefaces
11-15-2017, 07:11 AM
Hi Whitefaces, I see we find ourselves again on the same side after some months with the good old loved Miracles.
I'm testing a very similar list, without SW and I'm willing to try them out, so I'll basically just copy yours for this week.
My question is: do you find yourself siding in Memory's journey just as protection against surgical or do you bring it in only against graveyard decks?
Also the deck seems really tight, If you would have to bring in the whole dread return packet with Iona and I suppose a petal against combo, what would you take out? I would guess like this, but I'm not sure: +2DR +Iona + Petal -City -PImp -2Amalgam

Indeed :) Still very dedicated to Miracles, but enjoying exploring a lot of other archetypes too these days.

I'm still quite new to dredge so I'd fall back on others' advice if they disagree, and if they could chime in too I'd be interested in their answers as well. But my feelings on your questions are

Memory's Journey: Both, it's good as an anti Surgical card, and obviously has application vs something like Reanimator. I've played with it very little so far though.

And yeah, that sideboarding sounds about right to me. Having 3 ofs definitely makes trimming cards harder, but I think you can summarize cards roughly into 'core' 'grind' and 'explosive' (for lack of a better word!)

Core:
4 Faithless Looting
2-3 Ichorid
3-4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
2-3 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll

Grind:
3 Putrid Imp
2 Prized Amalgam
2 Careful Study

Explosive:
3 Breakthrough
3 Street Wraith
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

Depending on the matchup you want to be cutting from either the grind or explosive side, then potentially trimming on some of the core cards. Like last night vs the decks with Leylines, I was cutting all Breakthroughs and LEDs for Wear//Tears, DR package of Iona + Rider and a Grudge for E Bridges. Vs Tin Fins I cut 3 PImps, 1 Thug and 2 Ichorid for 1 Journey, 2 Faerie, 2 DR and Iona.

All that being said, maybe this list is a bit unfocused and Orims 'almost quad-lazer' one is better.

Que
11-16-2017, 03:01 PM
Dabbled with an amalgam in the board for a little bit and it was okay, not terrible not amazing either. This build is focused around max ichorid consistency with the 8 extra black cards in the wraiths and pimps, so I think the amalgam would have to be the 5th rather than replacing the last ichorid. In terms of surgical extraction, having the pimps as extra bridge fodder post board lessens the need for amalgam in the case of ichorid getting extracted. I'd say 1 in the board if you have room for it is fine, but with how prevalent reanimator is I think the yard hate is more worthwhile.

In relation to the bluer builds with studies and coliseums, I would say they are more consistent in terms of opening hand keeps because of the extra looting and dig effects and better at blowing the game open on turn 2 regularly, where the black build is better at subtle grinding and staying underneath a lot of hate. Just depends on the preferred playstyle really I think

This was basically the answer I was looking from Orim. Thanks Kap'n. Looks like you're definitely onto something and I like how you thought about your build and how it plays out. Cool to see your list being adopted with success!

Pische
11-19-2017, 02:13 PM
Hey all, 6-0ed a local tournament with Whitefaces build.
I found the deck to be extremely efficient, I only lost 2 games.
Opponents were d&t, stoneblade, 2x elves, 4c, omnishow.

Vissah
11-19-2017, 07:03 PM
I been playing and testing with Orim`s Quad deck and it`s been a blast to play.
I am going pretty good and I am starting to have a good feel for the deck. I think I will keep playing with this build for a while to get a feeling for the deck and the format. When I am feeling more comfortable playing Legacy I will be experimenting with other style builds. Also I really love decks with mostly four off`s.

The LED`s have been proxied so far and sometimes I am thinking of being better off with just Amalgam`s instead of the LED`s. No doubt I am wrong and still unexperienced with the deck and a lot of matchups but I get the feeling that the deck will also run good enough without LED.
I will get them probably later this week and then from next year I will be playing Legacy almost exclusively to prepare for GP Shizuoka next year December.

gibbousm
11-19-2017, 08:02 PM
Some thoughts after playing 7 rounds in the Baltimore Classic today with Almost Quadlazer (2:2 split Coliseum: City of Brass, 4 Street Wraith, 0 Studies, 3:1 split Thug:Darkblast) [3-4 in matches/8-9 in games]


I never really noticed the absence of Study, I cannot recall any hands I mulliganed that were keepable if the Street Wraiths had been Studies. However, there were games when I needed to find anti-hate and Study would have dug me an extra card deeper.
I was never given the opportunity to Street Wraith in response to a Surgical or DRS activation, but Cycling on my opponent's end step to possibly hit Narcos & Ichorids happened multiple times. It feels a bit weaker compared to when I do that with Manaless Dredge, but thats because LED Dredge has a lower threat density
Putrid Imp was an all-star the whole day, it regularly got in for chip damage & let me control when I wanted to put important things in the graveyard like Ichorid & Bridge. This let me control the information my opponent's had and screwed with their combat math and lead to blowouts in response to removal
Cracking LED with Street Wraith on the stack feels awkward. Its not weak, in fact its a strong play, it just feels weird having a card in hand after cracking LED.
The number 1 thing I was missing was main deck Dread Return. I typically run DR + Iona/Ashen Rider in the main which is a personal choice. Going forward I'll probably do some shaving to include DR + Target. I like having access to something that just says "I Win This Game"
About 1/2 of my opponents had no idea how to play the match up other than "graveyard hate is good". Twice my opponents exiled the wrong target with Surgical and lost because of it. Only 3 of my game losses were directly due to Graveyard hate, the others were either my opponents having better draws/varience or me punting.


Why 3:1 Split on Thug:Darkblast?

I have 3 Duel Deck Thugs & 1 Ravnica Thug
Darkblast is a Dredge card that you can cast from hand to get directly in yard (as long as there's a target)
Randomly killing X/1s & Upkeep Blast>Dredge>Blast to kill X/2s is sometimes very strong
Can kill Ichorids, Thugs, & Narcos for Bridge Triggers and to save them from Exile effects.
Darkblasting a Thespian Stage that earlier become a Dryad Arbor when your opponent goes for Stage-Depths

Kap'n Cook
11-19-2017, 08:54 PM
Oh shit. Just won the Baltimore classic, 8-0-2 for the day. You know what that means. Another epic report to come

Oestrus
11-19-2017, 10:15 PM
Oh shit. Just won the Baltimore classic, 8-0-2 for the day. You know what that means. Another epic report to come

That was you? WERRRK.

SHABOOGS
11-19-2017, 10:37 PM
Oh shit. Just won the Baltimore classic, 8-0-2 for the day. You know what that means. Another epic report to come
Congrats on the win. Looking forward to the report.

Que
11-20-2017, 12:00 AM
Oh shit. Just won the Baltimore classic, 8-0-2 for the day. You know what that means. Another epic report to come

If its half as fire as the last one my body is ready. Congrats on the win bro!

Whitefaces
11-20-2017, 05:17 AM
Hey all, 6-0ed a local tournament with Whitefaces build.
I found the deck to be extremely efficient, I only lost 2 games.
Opponents were d&t, stoneblade, 2x elves, 4c, omnishow.

Nicely done!


Oh shit. Just won the Baltimore classic, 8-0-2 for the day. You know what that means. Another epic report to come

Awesome! Congrats, can't wait for this report.

gibbousm
11-20-2017, 08:00 AM
Not gonna lie I'm super jealous that you won the Classic considering with the exception of my miser's Darkblast we ran identical lists.

I now have to ask myself how much the difference in our records were caused by me playing worse vs me having worse luck.

Congratulations, looking forward to seeing your report.

indefinite.soul
11-20-2017, 08:49 PM
Hi guys! Long time no see! :)

I see the new list for the moment is old quadlazer -2 coliseum +2 city -4 study +4 wraith.

My question reading recent reports is: being the meta filled with drs isn't -4 pimp +4 firestorm mainboard viable? What about a 2-2 split?

I understand wraith also answer drs, but you know, I just hate 'em face..

Kap'n Cook
11-22-2017, 07:38 PM
You already know it's going to be ridiculous. Enjoy!

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32141-The-Second-Greatest-Tournament-Report-of-All-Time-Tribute&p=1030717#post1030717

Vissah
11-22-2017, 09:00 PM
Love it 😃

slave
11-27-2017, 06:37 PM
You already know it's going to be ridiculous. Enjoy!

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32141-The-Second-Greatest-Tournament-Report-of-All-Time-Tribute&p=1030717#post1030717
Interesting....:laugh:

4 Pimp & 4 Wraith, omitting Careful Study isn't something I've tried before.
I'm not sure it's the direction I want, but I'm going to give it a shot. :wink:

Ronald Deuce
11-27-2017, 10:18 PM
Kap'n Cook, I'm curious: did you find your list to be more consistent than the traditional(?) plan with a quad of Careful Study? I ask because I got BTFO'd on Sunday running my usual list, and most of the trainwreck was the result of bad openers, even after rigorous mulligans.

(In case anyone cares, I played against The Czech Republic [1–2], Blue-Black Reanimator [0–2], and a brew [2–0].)

Inconsistency has always struck me as the biggest weakness in Dredge—not hate, nor speed (or a lack thereof). I'm wondering whether anyone's been working to correct this. At the local, I've gone undefeated with Dredge one week only to completely crap out a few weeks later using the same list, and not because opponents adapted to the deck.

Not that this is scientific, but I still end up with Narcomoeba in my opening hand roughly 60% of the time, even after aggressive mulligans.

Kap'n Cook
11-28-2017, 11:58 AM
Kap'n Cook, I'm curious: did you find your list to be more consistent than the traditional(?) plan with a quad of Careful Study? I ask because I got BTFO'd on Sunday running my usual list, and most of the trainwreck was the result of bad openers, even after rigorous mulligans.

(In case anyone cares, I played against The Czech Republic [1–2], Blue-Black Reanimator [0–2], and a brew [2–0].)

Inconsistency has always struck me as the biggest weakness in Dredge—not hate, nor speed (or a lack thereof). I'm wondering whether anyone's been working to correct this. At the local, I've gone undefeated with Dredge one week only to completely crap out a few weeks later using the same list, and not because opponents adapted to the deck.

Not that this is scientific, but I still end up with Narcomoeba in my opening hand roughly 60% of the time, even after aggressive mulligans.



I think study/coliseum vs pimp/wraith really just comes down to what do you want to be doing. I look at study and think its better with LED when you have no other draw spell, worse than wraith when you do, and leads to more turn 2 blowouts. Its also a better way to find anti-hate. That style has been proven to succeed with tons of results.

My gripes with the list I had been running (full led/bthru/study/looting) was the inconsistency in returning ichorid. If it ever became a longer grind because bridges were removed or something, I would often run out of black creatures. Based on the meta, I looked at it like deathrite and surgical are the primary (only?) hate cards you will see. There are also a lot of things that show up regularly that are not necessarily hate cards but still interact with you, like daze, wasteland, and chalice for example, which are very good against study. Wraith kinda answers all those issues, and pimp helps a lot in mitigating wraiths downside of not being a discard outlet. I just found that i preferred the 4 ich+16 black+8 draw (with wraith essentially a 0.5 draw spell) vs 3 ich+8 black+12 draw. There very well could be a solid middle ground that is better than everything too, like 4 study over 4 pimp for a super fast build.

Just preference really, i think both styles are consistent, just depends on what you want to be consistent in.

Orim67
11-29-2017, 04:46 AM
When you look at the top decks like Grixis Delver, Pile and Miracles, you will see that there will be many red blasts, flusterstorms and spell pierces postboard, which all hit study. Street wraith is very good against those because you can start the the dredging uncounterably (if you resolved a PImp) and you then maybe find a therapy to resolve that looting/breakthrough before they find more surgicals or grind you down with Drs. Street Wraith lets you use the DDD plan even against Drs or surgicals, which also plays around the counterspells nicely. The way you lose these matchups is, that you get all your draw spells and discard outlets countered and get wasted off your only land to prevent future draw spells. This will slow you down enough to make surgicals and drs relevant.
A blue list may not be strictly worse than the black list, but this may explain why the black list had better results lately.

slave
11-29-2017, 06:48 PM
Inconsistency has always struck me as the biggest weakness in Dredge—not hate, nor speed (or a lack thereof). I'm wondering whether anyone's been working to correct this. At the local, I've gone undefeated with Dredge one week only to completely crap out a few weeks later using the same list, and not because opponents adapted to the deck.
I can't say my experience is quite the same, but I've definitely shared that feeling of the deck being inconsistent week to week.
My main issue with the deck is the fact gravehate is so flexible and so very often .... final.:cry:

The lack of black targets for Icky is also a bone-of-contention for me. GGT is a pretty big target for extraction, so relying on Stinky or Thug for bringing Icky back is somewhat flawed. However, it's also worked for me enough to have stayed with Study for years and never feel the need to put in more than 4 of Wraith/Pimp.
At one stage I ran only 2 and it still felt ok, even when Deathrite appeared & everyone jammed it blindly into any deck they could.

Wraith and Pimp in the same deck is fine (I ran a 2-2 split for ages) but I'm not sure about 8 of them at the expense of Study.
For me, the whole point of dredge is to win game1. Race!!! We HAVE to win game1.
Using Wraith instead of Study, and a full suite of Pimp leaves me feeling we may end up being slower, even if we are a little more reliably bringing Icky back.

That said, I'm going to run a full 8 Wraith/Pimp tonight and see how I roll just for the hell of it. I haven't worked out my board yet....

ThomasDowd
11-29-2017, 07:38 PM
I can't say my experience is quite the same, but I've definitely shared that feeling of the deck being inconsistent week to week.
My main issue with the deck is the fact gravehate is so flexible and so very often .... final.:cry:

The lack of black targets for Icky is also a bone-of-contention for me. GGT is a pretty big target for extraction, so relying on Stinky or Thug for bringing Icky back is somewhat flawed. However, it's also worked for me enough to have stayed with Study for years and never feel the need to put in more than 4 of Wraith/Pimp.
At one stage I ran only 2 and it still felt ok, even when Deathrite appeared & everyone jammed it blindly into any deck they could.

Wraith and Pimp in the same deck is fine (I ran a 2-2 split for ages) but I'm not sure about 8 of them at the expense of Study.
For me, the whole point of dredge is to win game1. Race!!! We HAVE to win game1.
Using Wraith instead of Study, and a full suite of Pimp leaves me feeling we may end up being slower, even if we are a little more reliably bringing Icky back.

That said, I'm going to run a full 8 Wraith/Pimp tonight and see how I roll just for the hell of it. I haven't worked out my board yet....

What game 1s are you not winning as dredge? inconsistency? I feel like games 2 and 3 are way more important

ConBro
11-30-2017, 08:56 AM
Round 4 vs Zirina on Miracles


Game 2
Sb: +2 Firestorms, -2 LED. I expected Containment Priest but I didn't want to board too much.
I keep a good 7 with 2gold, PImp, Breakthrough, Stinkweed, Ichorid and a Therapy. But my Opp drops a Containment Priest on t2 and I tunnel vision on finding a firestorm the whole game because he never seemed to have much countermagic and I found many looting effects and some Breakthroughs. I never found a firestorm to activate my Ichorids and in hindsight I could have won the game if I started hardcasting creatures and dredging into bridges and therapies.



Hi and thanks so much for the write up. Question for you as a person new to dredge: why doesn't Crippling Fatigue http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=34225 warrant consideration? It just seems like it would be good in exactly the situation you found yourself in here in game 2. It's much easier to dredge into CF than draw into Firestorm.

I don't mean to sound like I've discovered something you haven't already considered. I am just trying to understand why it isn't good enough.

ntropy
11-30-2017, 09:34 AM
Hi and thanks so much for the write up. Question for you as a person new to dredge: why doesn't Crippling Fatigue http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=34225 warrant consideration? It just seems like it would be good in exactly the situation you found yourself in here in game 2. It's much easier to dredge into CF than draw into Firestorm.

I don't mean to sound like I've discovered something you haven't already considered. I am just trying to understand why it isn't good enough.

On a sort of related note, I was wondering about Deep Analysis. It could be a flashback dredge engine in addition to Looting. My guess is that 2 mana is asking a lot for the effect from either of these cards, but most of my experience is with manaless builds, so what would I know about casting spells?

ConBro
11-30-2017, 10:25 AM
On a sort of related note, I was wondering about Deep Analysis. It could be a flashback dredge engine in addition to Looting. My guess is that 2 mana is asking a lot for the effect from either of these cards, but most of my experience is with manaless builds, so what would I know about casting spells?

I guess for DA the questions are:

1) Is DA a better draw spell than anything already in the deck? Generally not. It's the best option when it's in your graveyard and you have two lands. Every other option is as good or better in just about every other case.

2) If it isn't replacing an existing draw spell, does the deck need another draw spell? Since we aren't maxed out on all of Breakthrough/Street Wraith/Careful Study/FL, I don't see why we would go to DA next. DA seems like it would be good when you are already humming along- mostly win more. I don't think there are many possible openers where DA is good and any other draw spell isn't better.

That's my feeling. Haven't tested it and I'm liable to be very wrong.

slave
12-01-2017, 02:42 AM
What game 1s are you not winning as dredge? inconsistency? I feel like games 2 and 3 are way more important
Some. There's decks that can race us or just plain stop us winning. Reanimator, Storm etc., not to mention the decks out there that pack maindeck hate like Helm/Rip Combo etc.
I feel game 1 is the most important to win. Our deck should be streamlined to double-down on winning that one, as RiP, LotV, Cage, Surg, Relic etc etc. all come in from the side after game1. If we lose game1, you're stuck hoping their hate isn't going to be terminal.


On a sort of related note, I was wondering about Deep Analysis.
Deep Anal does nothing until it's in the grave. It's was popular back before Faithless Looting arrived. I think we have better options, as the life-loss is relevant.


doesn't Crippling Fatigue warrant consideration?
Compare to Firestorm.
For me, Firestorm is there to deal with Elves or any other deck that can flood the field with creatures quickly.
I see what you're saying, Fatigue can be fetched up from the grave, but Firestorm is my preference here due to it not only being able to ditch your GGT's etc back into the grave, but it also kills all your opponents creatures (most of the time).

slave
12-01-2017, 03:02 AM
Okay so I went along to the local last night.
Went 4-1 with the Wraith-Pimp list as per Kap'n Cook, altho my side was a bit different.
I got to beat Burn 2-0, Grixis 2-1, some homebrew GB grave-based deck 2-0, Dark Depths 2-1
Lost to Reanimator 0-2.

Losing to Reanimator was brutal. Terrible draws left me mulling down to 4 in both games before I kept bad hands.
All other games the deck felt okay without being spectacular.

So what do I think about the 4 Pimp, 4 Wraith deck with no Study?
I like it. I'm not sure I'll keep going with it though. I had to really think about sideboarding, I'm not used to this list.
It felt a bit more grindy, a bit less explosive. It played out quite similarly to what dredge usually would after turn2 albeit a little more aggressive, but I was playing out my first two turns a little differently.
The big difference was playing against DRS & Extraction, having Wraith and Pimp was nice....

Darkness
12-01-2017, 08:35 AM
Okay so I went along to the local last night.
Went 4-1 with the Wraith-Pimp list as per Kap'n Cook, altho my side was a bit different.
I got to beat Burn 2-0, Grixis 2-1, some homebrew GB grave-based deck 2-0, Dark Depths 2-1
Lost to Reanimator 0-2.

Losing to Reanimator was brutal. Terrible draws left me mulling down to 4 in both games before I kept bad hands.
All other games the deck felt okay without being spectacular.

So what do I think about the 4 Pimp, 4 Wraith deck with no Study?
I like it. I'm not sure I'll keep going with it though. I had to really think about sideboarding, I'm not used to this list.
It felt a bit more grindy, a bit less explosive. It played out quite similarly to what dredge usually would after turn2 albeit a little more aggressive, but I was playing out my first two turns a little differently.
The big difference was playing against DRS & Extraction, having Wraith and Pimp was nice....

I don't play dredge anymore but as a former player I like that you get a grind element with the Wraith Pimp, plus the fuel for Ichorid is strong and it gives you cards to easily remove when you do want to become more explosive, IE combo MU. I think it's here to stay.

ConBro
12-01-2017, 09:02 AM
Compare to Firestorm.
For me, Firestorm is there to deal with Elves or any other deck that can flood the field with creatures quickly.
I see what you're saying, Fatigue can be fetched up from the grave, but Firestorm is my preference here due to it not only being able to ditch your GGT's etc back into the grave, but it also kills all your opponents creatures (most of the time).

Yeah, it would definitely be a swap with Firestorm as the removal option. So, you are not using LEDs or Breakthroughs until later so you can keep Firestorm in hand and clear the elves? Huh. I had not been playing it that slowly. I am probably too aggressive and not patient enough in sideboard games.

Would you agree that Firestorm is better for clearing multiple creatures, but CF is better for killing individual problem creatures (such as containment priest)? Is it down to metagame, or is Firestorm just miles ahead overall such that it's just wrong to be going with CF over Firestorm? Don't get me wrong: I'm using 4x Firestorm. I'm not on some crusade for CF. Just trying to get a better feel for the strengths and weaknesses we are building on. I'm just not often using Firestorm to kill more than one creature, so I'm a little lost.

Ronald Deuce
12-01-2017, 02:49 PM
I'm just not often using Firestorm to kill more than one creature, so I'm a little lost.

My opinion might not be too popular, but I don't much like Firestorm or other removal generally. We need it right away, we need to be able to pay for it, and it has to be the right kind of removal to actually do anything.

This is almost certainly a product of confirmation bias, but I've been happiest just bringing in Force of Will for LED. The window for it is narrower than for the other cards, but we don't have to throw mana at it, and it stops everything but Leyline. (It also gets mileage out of my pesky Narcomoebas, which really, really want me to hold them—much to my dismay.)

Regarding Crippling Fatigue, I don't think it's something we want. I think Firestorm's uncounterable discard is more important than actually picking off creatures and that if our opponent has multiple threats down that hit our 'yard, we're probably already fishtailing out of the game. Though Fatigue can be cast from the graveyard, that's often not relevant (I stopped running Grudge and Ray for that reason). It's also more expensive than Firestorm, and Firestorm is an instant. I'd be interested to know if I'm missing something, though, because I don't play Dredge as much as any good citizen worthy of the title should :D

Kap'n Cook, thanks a lot for getting back to me! I really appreciate the analysis. I might try a similar build next time I bring the deck out for a spin, though it might be a little while because it looks like graveyard hate at the local is at the high-water mark. Leaves me in a pretty awkward spot for this coming weekend because almost all my decks rely on the graveyard.

Chronatog
12-01-2017, 06:46 PM
My opinion might not be too popular, but I don't much like Firestorm or other removal generally. We need it right away, we need to be able to pay for it, and it has to be the right kind of removal to actually do anything.

Have you tried Darkblast? With Dredge 3 you can cast Darkblast during your upkeep and dredge it during your draw step to cast again and finish any x/2 creature (notably Deathrite Shaman or Containment Priest). It is not ideal, but since this is a recurring spell with dredge you even don't need to significantly dilute number of dredgers in your deck.

ConBro
12-01-2017, 09:18 PM
My opinion might not be too popular, but I don't much like Firestorm or other removal generally. We need it right away, we need to be able to pay for it, and it has to be the right kind of removal to actually do anything.

This is almost certainly a product of confirmation bias, but I've been happiest just bringing in Force of Will for LED. The window for it is narrower than for the other cards, but we don't have to throw mana at it, and it stops everything but Leyline. (It also gets mileage out of my pesky Narcomoebas, which really, really want me to hold them—much to my dismay.)



Cool, thanks for the input. If you are bringing in 4x FOW, you aren't playing the PImp/Street Wraith version, right?

Ninjastill
12-02-2017, 12:26 AM
So I played Kapn Cook's exact list at my FMN tonight, this was my first ever event with Dredge so I made plenty of mistakes. Missing triggers, sideboarding incorrectly, more importantly which hands to keep and which hands to throw away.

Match 1 vs DNT

Game 1: I have the nuts of LED Breakthrough GGT and Faithless looting, turn over like 40 cards strip his hand with Therapy a turn or two later and he saw enough after that.

Game 2: My dredges were not as spicy as last game but his hand sadly didn't have a lot of action, He Faerie Macabre'd something out of my GY honestly I forget, but all he had was a SFM in play which got Jitte, I therapied Jitte and road some zombies and Ichorids to victory.

Match 2 vs UB Control?

Game 1: My dredges were poor but was able to push through an active DRS and get some good beats after stripping his hand with therapies

Game 2: I got my poor Ichorids surgicaled and he got double TNN and I only saw 1 bridge in 40 cards of dredging :(.

Game 3: He mulled to 5 kept a no lander :( He was a great guy so I enjoyed playing him, he conceded after I had the nuts with breakthrough.

Match 3 vs Burn

Game 1: Nutty hand, ripped his hand apart by turn 2 he conceded after.

Game 2: Kept a 6 I should've mulled and he killed me with goblin guide and a bunch of rift bolts..

Game 3: I dredge about 40 cards and saw 1 therapy and 0 bridges and 3 Narcs, he has me at 8 with 3 cards in hand, I name fire blast, which was a blank he burns me out the next turn. Bad luck from my dredges :(

Match 4 vs Grixis Delver

Game 1: My dredges were hating on me, saw another 40+ cards only 1 bridge and all 4 therapies went to stripping his hand of TNN/Gurmag/Peeze ended up losing to triple DRS.

Game 2: I won on the back of Firestorm being the greatest, killed his board 2x and got him for the last extra points of damage after he surgicaled my Ichorids.

Game 3: Was a long game, he surgicaled my ichorids ate most of my trolls and got rid of my faithless lootings. I didnt see any bridges/therapies early which sucked I ended up having 2 Zombies and a Narcomeba out with a therapy left and 2 bridges in the GY. I cast therapy he Brainstorms in response, therapy resolves I go in the tank of and just take a guess and name Young pyromancer... DING DING we got him coach, he couldn't believe it but was a good sport about it (lowkey Im a super hero). He ended up dying to zombie beats.

Overall I enjoyed playing the deck, made a lot of mistakes (missing Ichorid triggers, a narcomeba trigger, sideboarding probably) but was a good learning experience.

meffeo
12-02-2017, 04:31 AM
My opinion might not be too popular, but I don't much like Firestorm or other removal generally. We need it right away, we need to be able to pay for it, and it has to be the right kind of removal to actually do anything.

This is almost certainly a product of confirmation bias, but I've been happiest just bringing in Force of Will for LED. The window for it is narrower than for the other cards, but we don't have to throw mana at it, and it stops everything but Leyline. (It also gets mileage out of my pesky Narcomoebas, which really, really want me to hold them—much to my dismay.)



Your statement on Firestorm applies to Force of Will too. "We need it right away, we need to be able to pay for it, and it has to be the right kind of [counterspell] to actually do anything".

I don't like this kind of approach towards the deck; makes more sense playing Manaless (together with the blue Shoal, since pitched to Narco stops RiP / Priest and pitched to GP stops Cage / Relic / DRS).
Was your Firestorm countered? Whatever, you already threw in the bin dredgers and stuff.

Ronald Deuce
12-02-2017, 12:53 PM
Your statement on Firestorm applies to Force of Will too. "We need it right away, we need to be able to pay for it, and it has to be the right kind of [counterspell] to actually do anything".

You're right, but I find Force to be more versatile, though you're right that it doesn't work as a discard outlet. When I posted before, I forgot to mention Force also doesn't stop Faerie Macabre, but that, Extirpate, and Leyline are the only cards it won't answer. I think it's a matter of preference; I'm definitely keeping my Firestorms around, but I don't think I'd want more than three. I find it to be much more finicky, though I totally hear why people don't like Force of Will.

slave
12-05-2017, 07:06 PM
Yeah, it would definitely be a swap with Firestorm as the removal option. So, you are not using LEDs or Breakthroughs until later so you can keep Firestorm in hand and clear the elves? Huh. I had not been playing it that slowly. I am probably too aggressive and not patient enough in sideboard games.

Would you agree that Firestorm is better for clearing multiple creatures, but Crippling Fatigue is better for killing individual problem creatures (such as containment priest)? Is it down to metagame, or is Firestorm just miles ahead overall such that it's just wrong to be going with CF over Firestorm? Don't get me wrong: I'm using 4x Firestorm. I'm not on some crusade for CF. Just trying to get a better feel for the strengths and weaknesses we are building on. I'm just not often using Firestorm to kill more than one creature, so I'm a little lost.
I use Firestorm depending on game state.
(Example) Elves & Infect often depend on certain cards to go stupid, so a well timed Firestorm is where I aim to be on t2 or 3.
I've used it plenty of times after I bring back Icky's the first time - Firestorm is a board wipe, I lose my bridges, but we still get zombies. :tongue:

I don't like CF, 2 mana + CF in the grave for only a -2/-2 is too conditional for me. Landing more than 1 land isn't consistent, especially when you consider that cards like Thalia & Wasteland exist. I like Firestorm, but I don't side it in very often, just for the matchups where it offers a large swing.

You're right, but I find Force to be more versatile, though you're right that it doesn't work as a discard outlet. When I posted before, I forgot to mention Force also doesn't stop Faerie Macabre, but that, Extirpate, and Leyline are the only cards it won't answer. I think it's a matter of preference; I'm definitely keeping my Firestorms around, but I don't think I'd want more than three. I find it to be much more finicky, though I totally hear why people don't like Force of Will.
I agree with all above - as another FoW player (mostly, but I change my dredge deck on a whim) I can back up Ron here. It's not the best choice here in Dredge, but it has opened up lines of play that I really like to have. FoW is just better at stopping terminal stuff, I wouldn't waste it on stuff we can grind against, I save them in hand for stuff like Show n Tell, Infernal Tutor, RiP, Cage etc.

Pische
12-12-2017, 02:36 PM
I'm currently in a situation where I can't decide what is wrong and what is right.
In the last two weeks I found myself playing different lists with all the variations (0 to 4 Careful studies, 0 to 4 Pimps, 0 to 4 Street Wraiths) and I get similar (good) results in the end.
How can I learn to be more analytical?
Should I consider a hand with Pimp and no lootings worse than a hand with a single looting effect?
Should I take note of the situations where a careful study in my graveyard would be better as a Pimp or Wraith for an Ichorid trigger?
I'm starting to think that without a real analytic study, choosing between the various flavors is only a matter of superstition about the strength of a certain card.

Help me, my zombie friends.

ronco
12-12-2017, 04:33 PM
I'm currently in a situation where I can't decide what is wrong and what is right.
In the last two weeks I found myself playing different lists with all the variations (0 to 4 Careful studies, 0 to 4 Pimps, 0 to 4 Street Wraiths) and I get similar (good) results in the end.
How can I learn to be more analytical?
Should I consider a hand with Pimp and no lootings worse than a hand with a single looting effect?
Should I take note of the situations where a careful study in my graveyard would be better as a Pimp or Wraith for an Ichorid trigger?
I'm starting to think that without a real analytic study, choosing between the various flavors is only a matter of superstition about the strength of a certain card.

Help me, my zombie friends.

I did this with another deck, so I am sure it would work here. I make a thing in excel that tracks the following (goldfishing usually, but not always):
-damage done each turn
-turns until lethal damage dealt
-play/draw
-mulligan (and how many times)
-times xxxx card is cast in a particular game
-times xxxx card is "successful" when cast in a particular game (meaning, it provided a net benefit and wasn't a dud - was more of an issue in the other deck).
(repeat last two as needed for cards being tested).

Its total geek mode, but its how I do things. Then i just play it and document it and when you change it up, repeat the process with the new card and see if the win percentages or turns until lethal changes by a material amount.

That or just play it a shit ton of times against other decks and track win%. that's probably the more fun but less robust way to do it.

ThomasDowd
12-12-2017, 05:05 PM
I did this with another deck, so I am sure it would work here. I make a thing in excel that tracks the following (goldfishing usually, but not always):
-damage done each turn
-turns until lethal damage dealt
-play/draw
-mulligan (and how many times)
-times xxxx card is cast in a particular game
-times xxxx card is "successful" when cast in a particular game (meaning, it provided a net benefit and wasn't a dud - was more of an issue in the other deck).
(repeat last two as needed for cards being tested).

Its total geek mode, but its how I do things. Then i just play it and document it and when you change it up, repeat the process with the new card and see if the win percentages or turns until lethal changes by a material amount.

That or just play it a shit ton of times against other decks and track win%. that's probably the more fun but less robust way to do it.



Raw simulations are likely better since the deck is hardly interacted with. and anecdotal evidence is just that, anecdotal. the replacement exercise is worthwhile to evaluate in certain situations. i used ot do this with storm and a flipped/ different print cantrip to represent spell X where X was whatever i was considering at the time, to ever see if that would have been relevant. overall magic is a very random game so small smaple sizes of real games or goldfish will be the death of your experiment. dredge is built to get the engine going and keep it going. so whatever gets you to that state best is probably best

some cards have better value in certain metas due to resistance encountered, The general rule I've heard is looting focused is faster (better for combo) and wraith/pimp is better at recurring ichorid (better v DRS/ more consistent long tail). the best i can offer is maybe sticking with one version for a while and think about what the card swap would be and when it would be better in each of your games. it is some mental gymnastics but probably opens up lines for multiple versions so they become autopilot

slave
12-13-2017, 07:18 PM
Nice one ronco.



...the deck is hardly interacted with.
Do you mean goldfishing, or that the LED-dredge is "hardly interacted with" by an opponent?


...some cards have better value in certain metas due to the resistance encountered
Agreed. Force of Will is a good example of this.
I would add that if you have a lot of combo/storm in you meta, then the faster you are the better.

Help me, my zombie friends.
The differences in the cards you might choose, for me, comes down to repetition and varied opponents. And you'll eventually get bored of whatever list and want to try different stuff for the sake of it - I do anyway.

I do a lot of goldfishing and record important stuff like mulligans taken, fast starts, how many turns to reach 8 zombies (I find 8 tends to be murderous against most decks). Against humans I record what decks I win/lose to, what hate I lose to, any shortcomings of the deck or misplays, when I may have won but snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. Just the basics really, but mostly I go with *feel* when I play against humans who know how to beat dredge, so I try and make sure the deck (and my play) stands up.

I was pleasantly surprised trying out the 4xWraith, 4xPimp, 0xStudy list lately, as when I played against 3 people I've played with over the years, who know I'm on dredge or combo 90% of the time before I even sit down, the deck was able to not only stand up and get some heat on the table, it kept on bringing the heat whether I had bridges or not.
FWIW, my recent night out excluded Prized Amalgam, but I think this version might benefit from it more than a Study list.
I'm going to another cards night this evening, I'll be subbing in 2xPA, with 3 of Pimp & Wraith.

ntropy
12-14-2017, 09:11 AM
I'm currently in a situation where I can't decide what is wrong and what is right.
In the last two weeks I found myself playing different lists with all the variations (0 to 4 Careful studies, 0 to 4 Pimps, 0 to 4 Street Wraiths) and I get similar (good) results in the end.
How can I learn to be more analytical?
Should I consider a hand with Pimp and no lootings worse than a hand with a single looting effect?
Should I take note of the situations where a careful study in my graveyard would be better as a Pimp or Wraith for an Ichorid trigger?
I'm starting to think that without a real analytic study, choosing between the various flavors is only a matter of superstition about the strength of a certain card.

Help me, my zombie friends.

I think that people will often defend their lists to the death until enough people run the numbers, play the deck, and put up results proving an optimal configuration. I think the Wraith vs Study argument could boil down to play-style, comfort, prevailing trends, meta-game, and as you said, superstition. Which is objectively better could be a percentage small enough to be statistically insignificant. I know that I like Wraiths because I play them in Manaless and I love to feed my Ichorids with them, so I will use them, but that is definitely informed by Comfort and Play-Style more than win percentage.

militiaman89
12-16-2017, 02:01 PM
Hey guys is there a discord chat for this thread?

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Que
12-16-2017, 02:02 PM
Hi all,

I had two staples tournaments for December. I believe I went 3-3 in the first tournament which wasn't too exciting. However, 2nd tournament was a lot more successful for sure. I changed my list a little going back to an idea I had which I might have mentioned here earlier as well which was to cut out all Breakthrough in favor of Wraith. Breakthrough was the cut instead of Study as Study is a more consistent solid play on turn 1s than breakthrough would be outside of pairing with LED; want to start with strong keeps and mitigate mulligans as much as possible. Also in my meta fair decks reign over combo so It didn't feel like I would miss the slight speed loss. Also returned to 4x Ichorid and cut out the 2x Amalgam to make deck space. The DRS trump was going to be Wraith now.

Here is the list:http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=17852&d=310659&f=LE

There were a few people that did in fact get blown out by Street Wraith. To me it felt like Stifle in that if my opponents didn't play around it they would be punished severely. People either forgot about it or they made the decision to not play around it.

Btw contagion in the sb has been dope af at least to me lol. I've always had my gripe with Firestorm so this card has been a welcome removal spell. The newly added needle was also relevant in a match as I was able to Needle a Jitte that would have rekt me. Rounds went as follows (if you have any specific questions please feel free to ask):

R1:
Deathblade W
Record: 1-0
R2:
Manaless Dredge W
Record: 2-1
R3:
Elves W
Record: 3-0
R4:
Delver Variant W
Record: 4-0
R5:
Lands L
Record: 4-1
R6:
Esper Delver D
Record: 4-1-1
R7:
Food Chain W
Record: 5-1-1

I Seeded 3rd after swiss which was great going into top 8 as I would be on the play most often.
Top 8:

Quarters: Infect W
Semis: Food Chain W

Split the finals with Vidianto.

Dredge on boys!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tbh the only real core of the most recent dredge builds appears to be the following imo:

4x Bridge from Below
4x Lions Eye Diamond
4x Faithless Looting
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Narcomoeba
4x Golgari Grave Troll
4x Golgari Thug
4x Stinkweed Imp

All else is a slight variation of Ichorid, Putrid Imp, Prized Amalgam, Careful Study, Breakthrough, Dread Return, Street Wraith and the mana base which is a combination of gold lands and either 2-4 Cephalid Coliseum.

SHABOOGS
12-16-2017, 04:14 PM
Also got lucky at the last legacy tournament of the year here in the Philippines. These were my match ups:

Rd1 2-0 Win vs BUG Delver
Rd2 2-0 Win vs Eldrazi Aggro
Rd3 2-0 Win vs MUD
Rd4 ID
Rd5 ID

Finished first after the swiss and was paired against Big Eldrazi. Won that match 2-0 before we split the top 4 prizes and called it a day.

Here's the list I've been running this year. With the only changes I've made this year is with the sideboard and that one time I successfully tested Dragonlord Kolaghan in the main.

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return

4 Mana Confluence
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 City of Brass

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Serenity
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Wear / Tear
1 Ashen Rider
1 Memory's Journey
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

militiaman89
12-16-2017, 06:29 PM
Hey all been testing a different I guess style of dredge using lotus petals over Lions eye diamonds. The results have been surprisingly great. The control petal gives to control how many cards you discard instead going all in on a LED is amazing. It also gives explosive starts like land looting then petal breakthrough or another looting effect. They also allow you to utilize sideboard cards betters. I really think the petal version is superior to LED and will share my data with match results when i get everything all together. I also wanna test catheric reunion as thats now a viable option with petal.

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Vissah
12-17-2017, 11:28 PM
Hey all been testing a different I guess style of dredge using lotus petals over Lions eye diamonds. The results have been surprisingly great. The control petal gives to control how many cards you discard instead going all in on a LED is amazing. It also gives explosive starts like land looting then petal breakthrough or another looting effect. They also allow you to utilize sideboard cards betters. I really think the petal version is superior to LED and will share my data with match results when i get everything all together. I also wanna test catheric reunion as thats now a viable option with petal.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

You really think so?

Diamond is not used for it`s mana ability so I have a hard time understanding why Petal would be a good swap for it but by all means if it works for you keep playing and posting it please :D

SHABOOGS
12-18-2017, 01:00 AM
Lotus Petal doesn't do anything on its own to help the gameplan. At its worst, LED can be used to start your engine by discarding your hand so that you can start dredging. IMO, petal is a nice addition to Dredge (if you can squeeze it in) but not as a replacement for LED. I am interested to hear more about your results though.

militiaman89
12-18-2017, 06:17 PM
Most games i have asked myself if LED would have improved my game where I had lotus petal and every time the answer has been no. Try it for yourself and see what you find

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Ronald Deuce
12-18-2017, 08:40 PM
Most games i have asked myself if LED would have improved my game where I had lotus petal and every time the answer has been no.

That may be, but you're really just making a case for running Lotus Petal, not for cutting LED.

I've been interested in trying some number of Lotus Petals myself, but I don't know what I'd cut to put them in. (Before anyone asks, no, I wouldn't cut LED, at least not from the maindeck. I 'board out LEDs for other stuff, but I think it's absolutely crucial to have in the main.) I definitely think Petal is a card that warrants further testing.

Que
12-19-2017, 01:41 PM
That may be, but you're really just making a case for running Lotus Petal, not for cutting LED.

I've been interested in trying some number of Lotus Petals myself, but I don't know what I'd cut to put them in. (Before anyone asks, no, I wouldn't cut LED, at least not from the maindeck. I 'board out LEDs for other stuff, but I think it's absolutely crucial to have in the main.) I definitely think Petal is a card that warrants further testing.

I have it in my sideboard and its only for combating faster combo decks. I wouldn't think that it be a replacement. They make your mulligans worse and can hinder you if you need a permanent mana source.

militiaman89
12-19-2017, 05:42 PM
Most of yhe time when i have played led they are yhe first thing to come out as they are a liability going all in vs most gravehate. The only card that increases in value is faithless looting with led but with petal the ability to cast multiple looting abilitys becomes possible without having to go all in on a single hope of a looting resolving

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Orim67
12-19-2017, 06:28 PM
I agree if the grave hate is a relic or tormod's crypt that is already in play. Going a little more broke is better vs surgical or 2 mana hate permanents, that your opp might draw or couldn't cast yet. You can often create a big enough board and discard their hand to win, if you go all in on t1 vs a rip deck. One surgical is also easily beaten when you flipped your whole deck.
In my experience, you will see surgicals, rips, containment priests and scavenging oozes much more often than crypts, spellbombs and relics. I think that the 4th LED is better than the 1st Petal, but the 1st Petal might be better than the 13th or 14th land, especially in fast matchups.

Que
12-19-2017, 10:56 PM
Most of yhe time when i have played led they are yhe first thing to come out as they are a liability going all in vs most gravehate. The only card that increases in value is faithless looting with led but with petal the ability to cast multiple looting abilitys becomes possible without having to go all in on a single hope of a looting resolving

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Sure I board them out a lot of time as well, but that makes sense because of what you said "going all in vs gravehate" is a liability. My argument for having LEDs is strictly for the main deck and I'm convinced that since the printing of Faithless looting that if you're not running them main you're doing it wrong.

The only few times I recall a successful list with Petals main deck was from Yomura Syuuta from Japan in the KMC and Known Magician's Clan Series. http://www.mtgtop8.com/search

Still though he played both Petals AND LED in the same list. Which echoes what Orim said that the 1st Petal is probably just better than the 13th land etc..

slave
12-22-2017, 02:30 AM
... contagion in the sb has been dope af
Nice result! Well done Que.

Contagion in LED-dredge? I used to use this card as a staple side option in Manaless, but can't say I had much luck running them in LED-dredge before. I wonder if including a full set of Wraiths at the expense of blue spells makes the card more useful?
Which match-ups &/or cards did you side these on for?

Que
12-26-2017, 01:30 PM
Nice result! Well done Que.

Contagion in LED-dredge? I used to use this card as a staple side option in Manaless, but can't say I had much luck running them in LED-dredge before. I wonder if including a full set of Wraiths at the expense of blue spells makes the card more useful?
Which match-ups &/or cards did you side these on for?

Thanks Dude.

I just have my own apprehensions when it comes to playing Firestorm so the closest thing imo as fas as being relatively easy to cast and being removal was Contagion. Like you mentioned its nothing new and has been seen in Manaless Dredge for a while now usually over something like Sickening Shoal. I don't think that including Wraiths was the reason it shined mainly because we still run enough black cards to pull it off. Here is the previous list I had managed to top 8 with that also had Contagion with blue cards:http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=17060&d=305569&f=LE I liked it so much I went up to 4 the following tournament. If anything the addition of Wraith should only make you feel more comfortable running them. Casting them for "free" and being able to pay the tax in the face of Thalia has been nice. Also allowing you to pay for a Daze in situations that you would have been blown out in. I get that discarding as part of the firestorm cost is nice, but if they had a DRS on the board and your F Storm gets countered then DRS just eats whatever you just binn'd outside of Bridge from Below...

I would bring it in against any matchup you want to kill problematic creatures ; DRS, Containment Priest, Thalia,

Sefir
01-03-2018, 02:43 AM
Have you guys seen Silent Gravestone from Rivals? Do you think it can be used as a (what an irony!!) anti-gv hate against Surgicals, Shamans, Faerie Macabres, Oozes, etc without interrupting the decks own Dredge/Bridge engine?

themtgzealot
01-03-2018, 08:04 AM
I think it is playable turning of a % of hate cards is very enticing. Will build a SB to test.

SHABOOGS
01-03-2018, 10:08 AM
Silent Gravestone
1
Artifact
Cards in graveyards can't be the targets of spells or abilities.

4, T: Exile Silent Gravestone and all cards from all graveyards. Draw a card.
Made to ward off the Grim Captain and silence the lure of undeath.

A 1 CMC artifact that shuts down the two most common hate in today's meta (Deathrite Shaman and Surgical Extraction) is worth testing at the very least even though it does shut down our Dread Return and that it can be easily answered by Abrupt Decay.

mistercakes
01-03-2018, 10:15 AM
it's fantastic against the two that are played the most, and also screws over snapcaster. happy to test this if i have the time.

Parcher
01-03-2018, 11:51 AM
Can't ignore the fact that it doubles as our hate for what is usually our worst matchup.

Pische
01-09-2018, 08:14 PM
Unfortunately it also shuts down Dread Return, which we often want against DRS decks

Vissah
01-09-2018, 09:28 PM
Unfortunately it also shuts down Dread Return, which we often want against DRS decks

Really? Wich fatty do you board in against them?

Pische
01-10-2018, 09:23 AM
Really? Wich fatty do you board in against them?

Ashen Rider is my man against almost all fair decks.

Vissah
01-10-2018, 06:05 PM
Ashen Rider is my man against almost all fair decks.

Fair enough.

I just started Legacy so I`m still figuring out what and when to board cards in.

Phthisis
01-11-2018, 11:33 AM
That's actually something I'm a little curious about as well (bringing in Ashen Rider against fair decks).

Though I've played Dredge pretty extensively over the years in Modern and Extended, I'm relatively new to the Legacy version, so do interpret this as an earnest question and not a strong assertion of what I think is best.

Why do you think Ashen Rider is good in fair matchups? In general (though it is deck-specific), against fair decks I'm going to stick with the maindeck plan of no dedicated DR targets, just Golgari Grave-Troll. I feel that the normal dredge plan is fine against fair decks and if I really need a fatty, grave-troll is fine. Is the Ashen Rider just to deal with any potential problem permanents they might have (that aren't hate that shuts down the deck)? Or is it for some other plan like exiling lands to lock them out?

slave
01-12-2018, 12:39 AM
Silent Gravestone
1
Artifact
Cards in graveyards can't be the targets of spells or abilities.

4, T: Exile Silent Gravestone and all cards from all graveyards. Draw a card.
Interesting! Been a while since I've seen a potential dredge card, even if it is just a sideboard option.

The only card I've ever used for gravehate hate/protection in dredge is Leyline of the Void.
Gravestone looks less powerful, but more flexible. I like the idea at a glance, but I'm going to have to test it. I feel by looking at it that it may answer quite a few issues we have against some combo decks.

One of my worst matchups is Reanimator - this card (if it gets through counter) is effective against Reanimate, but not Exhume. They usually use Animate Dead too.
It also turns off Life from the Loam from infinite-Bojuka Bog lock. :smile:

But....
Considering how few matchups this card matters in (off the top of my head), and the fact we can simply race through Surg & DRS most of the time, I'm not sure we really need it.

Ronald Deuce
01-12-2018, 02:30 AM
One of my worst matchups is Reanimator - this card (if it gets through counter) is effective against Reanimate, but not Exhume. They usually use Animate Dead too.
It also turns off Life from the Loam from infinite-Bojuka Bog lock. :smile:

I was of the impression that auras did, in fact, target, so Gravestone would work against Animate Dead. Am I being a moran? This card might be the real deal against Lands. I'm definitely interested in picking up a few copies for Dredge and for trying out Grixis Storm again.

Regarding sideboard bomb creatures, why not just try FKZ, Archon, or Norn against non-combo decks? I guess sideboard space might be a pretty big concern.

slave
01-12-2018, 04:51 AM
I was of the impression that auras did, in fact, target, so Gravestone would work against Animate Dead. Am I being a moran? This card might be the real deal against Lands. I'm definitely interested in picking up a few copies for Dredge and for trying out Grixis Storm again.
No moron statement there bud - I was just stating what they use (relative to Animate Dead).
Gravestone would be a riot with flash.....:tongue:
Last time I came up against Lands I got rolled by Bojuka Bog-lock. Try explaining "bog lock" to you wife sometime. That conversation didn't go the way I thought it would.... (Way too much information :laugh:)



Is the Ashen Rider just to deal with any potential problem permanents they might have (that aren't hate that shuts down the deck)? Or is it for some other plan like exiling lands to lock them out?
Pretty much, dealing with problems or making sure you win. Problem I have with Ashen Rider is that if their hate negates Dread Return (Rip, LotV, Cage etc.), it's a dead card.
For DR targets, I like Iona myself, but it's also just as situational.
For dealing with terminal hate I usually prefer the sorcery stuff, evoke creatures or drowning my sorrows.

Vissah
01-12-2018, 09:15 AM
Played my first Legacy FNM ever today and it has been a long time since I had this much fun playing Magic.

Got second place, 2-0, 2-1, 1-2.

Lost to Aluren because it did not go as planned but you got those games with a deck like Dredge so no worries.

Phthisis
01-12-2018, 11:43 AM
Pretty much, dealing with problems or making sure you win. Problem I have with Ashen Rider is that if their hate negates Dread Return (Rip, LotV, Cage etc.), it's a dead card.
For DR targets, I like Iona myself, but it's also just as situational.
For dealing with terminal hate I usually prefer the sorcery stuff, evoke creatures or drowning my sorrows.

I know you were not the original poster to claim liking Ashen Rider in fair matchups, but this doesn't really answer my question. Personally I've been running Iona and Ashen Rider in the sideboard, with a single Dread Return main and Grave-Troll being the target. I do bring Iona and Ashen Rider situationally depending on the matchup, it's just that the fair matchups in general are the ones where I do not bring either in. Bringing in a reanimation target does make the deck (very slightly) less consistent, and I don't see how Ashen Rider is giving any percentage points. In general the standard Ichorid and zombie token swarm strategies work, and if I really do want a fatty, Grave-Troll is fine. I'm not sure I've ever been in a matchup with a fair deck where I feel that having access to Ashen Rider would have affected the outcome of the game. (now granted, there are some edge cases where you need evasion or there is a particular permanent that is a challenge for the deck, but I am talking about in general against fair decks)


Also, I was on dredge at the last Baltimore SCG Team Open and half my matchups were against Lands where I got completely blown out. That sucked. I did play against someone who was on a brew-y pox deck and who didn't really know what he was doing and gave me one of the more hilarious free wins I've had in Magic. He kept blowing up our lands and making us discard even though it was obvious that doing that was tremendously in my favor.

ronco
01-12-2018, 04:13 PM
I picked up Realm Razer for the lands matchup. Haven't had a chance to use it though. Any thoughts there?

gibbousm
01-14-2018, 12:38 PM
I picked up Realm Razer for the lands matchup. Haven't had a chance to use it though. Any thoughts there?


Realm Razer is a super fun card but the fact that it dies to Punishing Fire is the main reason I wouldn't run it. For Lands my plan is put pressure on them until they are forced to Glacial Chasm and then use Ashen Rider to blow that up when they are low enough for a lethal swing.

Vissah
01-17-2018, 07:06 PM
Quick question.

I just started playing Legacy so some of the decks I don`t really know what to board in against.

I played against Aluren and I know what the deck is trying to do I had a hard time figuring out wich cards to board in and how to attack it.

This is my sideboard:

4 Firestorm
3 Wear // Tear
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Memory`s Journey
2 Fearie Macabre
2 Dread Return
1 Ashen Rider
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

I play the straight up four of everything Orim deck and it has been putting up some good results for me.

Against Aluren I boarded in the Firestorms and the Ancient Grudge but I don`t know if that was the right play. If you guys can help me out here that would be very welcome because I know for sure I will be playing a lot more against that guy.

Ronald Deuce
01-18-2018, 12:05 AM
Quick question.

I just started playing Legacy so some of the decks I don`t really know what to board in against.

I played against Aluren and I know what the deck is trying to do I had a hard time figuring out wich cards to board in and how to attack it.

This is my sideboard:

4 Firestorm
3 Wear // Tear
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Memory`s Journey
2 Fearie Macabre
2 Dread Return
1 Ashen Rider
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

I play the straight up four of everything Orim deck and it has been putting up some good results for me.

Against Aluren I boarded in the Firestorms and the Ancient Grudge but I don`t know if that was the right play. If you guys can help me out here that would be very welcome because I know for sure I will be playing a lot more against that guy.

Would you mind elaborating on what went wrong? Without knowing what happened, I feel like Elesh Norn seems like a one-shot against the deck. Countermagic's a problem, but what else is new?

Vissah
01-18-2018, 04:37 AM
Would you mind elaborating on what went wrong? Without knowing what happened, I feel like Elesh Norn seems like a one-shot against the deck. Countermagic's a problem, but what else is new?

Game 1 I won pretty easy.
In game 2 and 3 not a lot went wrong because I could not get the engine going. Some bad dredges and draws, these things happen so it was no big deal.
I was just thinking of some good cards to board in that is why Indecided to ask here if I made a mistake in the cards I boarded in.
I have to say that the whole evening Firestorm was an all star and is my favorite sideboard card for now.

Orim67
01-18-2018, 07:14 AM
Against aluren, I board like against every other blue drs deck. They try to disrupt our engine with flusterstorm, force, drs and other graveyard hate. We should be able to disrupt their combo with therapies enough to not worry about it if everything goes right, because their combo is much slower than ours and they should mulligan for disruption, not a fast combo. The only scary thing is, that they are more likely to have cages/relics than other blue drs decks. So I think that it is fine to board in one grudge.
I'm still not a fan of boarding in grudges vs blue drs decks, because they often only have one target, but aluren also has ballistas and strixes in addition to 2 artifact based hate.

JackaBo
01-18-2018, 11:26 AM
Alluren doesnt run ballistas. That's food chain.

Orim67
01-18-2018, 11:58 AM
Oh, oops. Yeah, they are basically the same decks for us anyways.

Vissah
01-18-2018, 06:06 PM
Against aluren, I board like against every other blue drs deck. They try to disrupt our engine with flusterstorm, force, drs and other graveyard hate. We should be able to disrupt their combo with therapies enough to not worry about it if everything goes right, because their combo is much slower than ours and they should mulligan for disruption, not a fast combo. The only scary thing is, that they are more likely to have cages/relics than other blue drs decks. So I think that it is fine to board in one grudge.
I'm still not a fan of boarding in grudges vs blue drs decks, because they often only have one target, but aluren also has ballistas and strixes in addition to 2 artifact based hate.

Thanks Orim67!

Going to my next FNM next week and I will definitly keep that in mind.
I`m going to play as much Legacy if not only Legacy this year because I`m going to Eternal Weekend in Yokohama in August and the Legacy GP in Shizuoka in December so I can use all the help and practise I can get :D

itrytostorm
01-18-2018, 07:35 PM
I understand trying to think of cards that come in based on match, I'm actually a little lost on which come out. Like what are the weakest links. Is it always Putrid Imp? Seems like what I end up cutting most.

Orim67
01-18-2018, 08:39 PM
I like to cut some Putrid Imps when I board in firestorms because they both only work as a discard outlet and having 8 of that effect seems too many. But it both are probably your best turn 1 play vs blue deathrite decks.
Other than that, you can probably trim an Ichorid, a dredger and a breakthrough.
It really depends on the matchup, some therapies can come out vs chalices and you can board in at least one dread return to sacrifice your creatures. street wraiths aren't necessary vs decks that don't target our dredgers, but fine if we want to go fast. Some Ichorids obviously come out vs fast combo. I never cut narcos, bridges, lootings, or LEDs.

slave
01-19-2018, 02:58 AM
I'm not sure I've ever been in a matchup with a fair deck where I feel that having access to Ashen Rider would have affected the outcome of the game. (now granted, there are some edge cases where you need evasion or there is a particular permanent that is a challenge for the deck, but I am talking about in general against fair decks)
In a fair match-up, I'm not sure Ashen Rider is necessary, I tend to go with 1 DR targeting GGT in the main too.
Ashen Rider for me is a catch-all for stuff like Glacial Chasm, Ensnaring Bridge, Moat, Show n Tell etc.. I very rarely play it TBH, as most of the opponents I face tend to run proper hate that needs an answer that doesn't rely on Dread Return, or non-terminal stuff like Surg Ext. or DRS.


Also, I was on dredge .... half my matchups were against Lands where I got completely blown out.
Yeah, Lands is next level suck. I name Crop Rotation every chance I get, and generally try to land as many zombie tokens as I can ASAP. I'm not sure if this is the best or worst way to play against lands to be fair, as I don't tend to play against them much.
Any one got a proven tactic to play against Lands?

Phthisis
01-19-2018, 03:58 PM
In a fair match-up, I'm not sure Ashen Rider is necessary, I tend to go with 1 DR targeting GGT in the main too.
Ashen Rider for me is a catch-all for stuff like Glacial Chasm, Ensnaring Bridge, Moat, Show n Tell etc.. I very rarely play it TBH, as most of the opponents I face tend to run proper hate that needs an answer that doesn't rely on Dread Return, or non-terminal stuff like Surg Ext. or DRS.


Yeah, Lands is next level suck. I name Crop Rotation every chance I get, and generally try to land as many zombie tokens as I can ASAP. I'm not sure if this is the best or worst way to play against lands to be fair, as I don't tend to play against them much.
Any one got a proven tactic to play against Lands?

I do often bring in Ashen Rider as a catch-all, but I don't think I've ever actually DR'd it for any reason besides to cast DR for bridge zombies in a game I was definitely winning and just had to target something with DR. I feel like removing Ashen Rider from the deck is a huge mistake, but at the same time it has never been the difference in a match, though I get the feeling that is just due to the matchups I've faced.

I happen to be in a very Lands-heavy meta, so I'm also interested if anyone has any good strategies against the deck.

My current approach has been to bring in graveyard hate (Faerie Macabre or Leyline of the Void) and Ashen Rider. The plan is to apply the minimal but non-negligible amount of pressure to minimize the damage of a Bojuka Bog (and also hopefully force it early with a Cabal Therapy) while hopefully restricting any recursion/toolbox stuff off the graveyard hate. And then Ashen Rider can take care of Glacial Chasm or Tabernacle or Marit Lage in a pinch.

I am really interested in Silent Gravestone, though, since it not only disables hate, but also actively nerfs cards like Deathrite Shaman. Having both Silent Gravestone and Leyline of the Void could hit Lands pretty hard, I think, but I'm not sure if it's a good idea to build a sideboard with both, a good idea to weaken the deck by bringing both in, or worth potentially disabling access to Dread Return/Ashen Rider.

I will probably be playing Dredge in the Philly SCG Team Open, and I really wish there was more time to test with Silent Gravestone.

ntropy
01-22-2018, 05:37 PM
I just got my 4 Silent Gravestone!

I tossed them in the board to test at the LGS tomorrow, I'll let you know how it goes.

Vissah
01-22-2018, 06:15 PM
I just got my 4 Silent Gravestone!

I tossed them in the board to test at the LGS tomorrow, I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks!

Please let us knwo because I`m thinking of jsut getting four of them this week just to be sure.

Does it shut down anything that we play or do?

ntropy
01-23-2018, 08:33 AM
It shuts down Dread Return, so don't board in both at the same time. I think its ability to shut off DRS and Surgical are worth it, and it may help a little in the Reanimator match-up (which I expect to face at my LGS) I put 4 in the board over 2x Faerie Macabre, 1 Memory's Journey, and 1x Firestorm. This is probably not correct, but I just wanted to jam them in. vs Reanimator, I will probably bring them in alongside my Iona and Ashen Rider, but leave out the DRs. Gravestone turns off reanimate and animate dead, and Exhume will hopefully net me a critter as well.

Vissah
01-23-2018, 11:25 PM
It shuts down Dread Return, so don't board in both at the same time. I think its ability to shut off DRS and Surgical are worth it, and it may help a little in the Reanimator match-up (which I expect to face at my LGS) I put 4 in the board over 2x Faerie Macabre, 1 Memory's Journey, and 1x Firestorm. This is probably not correct, but I just wanted to jam them in. vs Reanimator, I will probably bring them in alongside my Iona and Ashen Rider, but leave out the DRs. Gravestone turns off reanimate and animate dead, and Exhume will hopefully net me a critter as well.

Thanks for the explanation.

slave
01-25-2018, 04:36 AM
I just got my 4 Silent Gravestone!
Yeah I'm keen to know how it goes too. :confused:

Orim67
01-25-2018, 06:13 AM
I think that it is fine to board dread return and gravestone in. You should be favored when you resolve gravestone so that you don't need dread return and it is not too bad to have 2 dead cards in your graveyard. Whe you don't draw gravestone, you might still want to have dread return.
That being said, there are likely not many matchups where you want both in your deck and that would be a lot of cards that don't advance your main gameplan. Maybe against Reanimator? Elves?

mistercakes
01-25-2018, 06:49 AM
i would keep 1 dread return in the deck, even with the gravestones. the payoff is worth it if the gravestone isn't in play and there's always chances that gravestones get blown up or countered.

ntropy
01-25-2018, 07:55 AM
Unfortunately, I audibled to a different deck based on turnout. I did poorly, should have stuck with it! I will share any testing insights I gain along the way though!

Phthisis
01-25-2018, 10:21 PM
I tried out a 4 Silent Gravestone sideboard tonight. Played a bunch of burn, of all matchups, but did get to play some post-board games against sultai delver. Sideboarded in 3 Firestorm and 4 Silent Gravestone. Unfortunately, it literally never mattered in any of the games I played. The only time I drew it and played it and it shut down something, it was a later-game Deathrite Shaman that would have done nothing anyway.

My current viewpoint is that in a void, Silent Gravestone is not clearly better or worse than Faerie Macabre or Memory's Journey. Each has their upsides and downsides. The upsides to Silent Gravestone are that it can be a kind of proactive hate card against Deathrite Shaman decks, as well as actually stopping Surgical Extraction as opposed to just being able to fizzle it by removing the target (which is relevant as people often target a card you actively want to use). The big downside to Silent Gravestone is that it is criminally easy to deal with compared to Memory's Journey and especially Faerie Macabre.

Ultimately I think it's going to be fine and potentially good in a Deathrite-heavy meta, as long as it stands as a kind of "gotcha" card, where they are not expecting it and may not have sided in an answer. I think if an opponent ever has reason to suspect Silent Gravestone, it's not going to be a good enough card.

Personally I'm still on the fence about what exactly my list will be for the Philadelphia SCG Open.

JakiraJakira
01-27-2018, 02:20 PM
hi Everyone. Ive just started to pick up legacy recently and have been looking at Dredge not only because of cheaper cost but the metagame effect if players get greedy on graveyard hate.
my goal is to get good enough at the deck to win most of my matches come March and the team open.
Ive been testing this list a little bit online, took it from Eruxus. Went 4-1 in a league, but im honestly not sure on sideboarding.

I was wondering if you guys could please help me understand sideboarding for certain matchups.
Especially grixis delver and other top tier decks. Especially the gravestone, does that card come in alot?
Thank you so much:)

My list for reference


3 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
3 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
1 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Mana Confluence
4 Narcomoeba
2 Prized Amalgam
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith

1 Ashen Rider
1 Dread Return
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Firestorm
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Silent Gravestone
3 Wear // Tear

Orim67
01-29-2018, 08:11 PM
hi Everyone. Ive just started to pick up legacy recently and have been looking at Dredge not only because of cheaper cost but the metagame effect if players get greedy on graveyard hate.
my goal is to get good enough at the deck to win most of my matches come March and the team open.
Ive been testing this list a little bit online, took it from Eruxus. Went 4-1 in a league, but im honestly not sure on sideboarding.

I was wondering if you guys could please help me understand sideboarding for certain matchups.
Especially grixis delver and other top tier decks. Especially the gravestone, does that card come in alot?
Thank you so much:)

My list for reference


3 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
3 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
1 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Mana Confluence
4 Narcomoeba
2 Prized Amalgam
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith

1 Ashen Rider
1 Dread Return
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Firestorm
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Silent Gravestone
3 Wear // Tear

Hey, nice to see that someone wants to bring dredge to bigger tournaments!
Your list looks good, Eruxus had much success online with it, he almost got into top 8 of the last challenge with it.
For the top decks:

Grixis Delver: +3 firestorm, - dread return, - 2 breakthrough
You can try to be greedier on the play and board some number of gravestones in. It just feels very slow vs their mana denial plan.

Pile: their main plan is snap+surgical and drs, so gravestone comes in and firestorm too. Cut dread return and some LED/draw spells and amalgams because they are better equipped to deal with 3/3s than delver and something has to come out.

Miracles: same as pile, but you don't need firestorm on the play. It can be good on the draw, because they will try to fluster/blast your studies/lootings and containment priest becomes a real thing.

ANT: try to be fast and discard their hand with therapies, board in iona. Amalgams are the obvious cuts.

Elves: same as ANT but 3 firestorms come in for studies.

Chalice decks: they will have some leylines, so tear comes in. Ashen rider if they go very big or have ensnaring bridge.
Firestorm can do work if they run blood moon and lets you discard through chalice. Amalgams and street wraiths can come out.

Crop rotation decks: discard their crop rotation and try to go fast and have ashen rider for problematic lands/marit lage. I don't think that gravestone is good enough vs loam, because of wasteland, just try to belcher them.

Show and tell: board in ashen rider and iona for amalgams and one street wraith.

Death and taxes: they will have very many different annoying permanents after turn 2, so create a big enough board before turn 2. On the draw, your best chance to win is LED or sniping their hatepiece with therapy after you cycled SW to dredge. Don't board in too much anti-hate on the draw to make both of those plans as consistent as possible. Firestorm is better than tear, because it is proactive. Just present your maindeck on the play and do what our deck does best. You might get blown out by faerie macabre or surgical, but fighting their hateful permanents is a losing battle because they have mom, manadenial and tutors for more hate.

slave
01-29-2018, 10:38 PM
I tried out a 4 Silent Gravestone sideboard tonight.
....
My current viewpoint is that in a void, Silent Gravestone is not clearly better or worse than Faerie Macabre or Memory's Journey.
I still haven't bought any, but I did proxy up a set of 4 and test them out against my other decks that care about the grave.
The only cards I've ever really rated for gravehate in dredge are Faerie Macabre & Leyline of the Void, and (unfortunately) I can't say this card is changing my mind after my first test run.

Thoughts;
This card is all about DRS & Surg. I see these two often.
Decks that regularly wreck me like Reanimator, BUG & Grixis, run at least 8 counter effects and things like Surg in the side. These decks are likely to kill this.
Every deck running DRS will want the mana available to them, at least. Every deck running DRS/Surg will likely kill it (against us).
Should we come up against a deck like Elves, we can turn off their hate with this, but we still have to race them after spending 1cmc on this thing.
This card isn't demanding a slot in my side so far, but it would be a surprise - not many decks will be expecting it postboard.

ntropy
01-31-2018, 08:45 AM
Shut down Lands with Silent Gravestone last night. It was great.

Vissah
02-01-2018, 08:47 PM
Shut down Lands with Silent Gravestone last night. It was great.

Sweet! Seems that the card has some potential.
I`m still looking into getting a set, my LGS was sold out.

gibbousm
02-03-2018, 06:33 PM
So I brought Dredge today to a 7 round event, I went 3-3 drop because I wanted to leave early and beat traffic.

Decklist was 12 lands, 3 PImp, 4 Street Wraith, 2 Careful Study, 2 Breakthrough and my pet card Darkblast over Thug #4

My Sideboard for the event was:
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Ashen Rider
1x Dread Return
3x Firestorm
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
2x Lotus Petal
3x Silent Gravestone
3x Wear//Tear

I beat Miracles twice, Grixis Pyromancer once, lost to UWr Stoneblade, Grixis Delver, and UR Delver.

Both my losses to Delver I blame on mulligan issues and bad RNG in general. G1 was all my fault, but G3 vs Grixis I kept an otherwise solid 6 card hand with Gravestone, Looting, Dredger, Ichy, Streetwraith, LED but no land. Cycle failed to find land and LED got forced, 6 turns in, still no land. G1 vs UR I had 7,6,5, & 4 card hands that were either no land/LED or all land, 3 card was Dredger, Ichy, Land. I scooped in response to Probe to conceal information. Game 3, my hand was just too slow to beat their Zoo draw. Thug was my only dredger and it failed to find a second Dredger or any of the Narcos I needed to block with when I cracked Coliseum. The wins were all straightforward, nothing fancy just Ichorid & Zombie beats while playing around removal.



In building my sideboard Gravestone took the slot of the 2 Macabres & 1 Memory's Journey I was running. I originally had a 4th Firestorm and 2nd Dread Return in the board. I moved the Dread Return into the main deck cutting Putrid Imp #4 and cut the Firestorm because with Gravestones I didn't feel the need for a 4th removal spell for DRS. I ultimately filled those last 2 slots with Petals because I wanted some extra speed for combo decks and to pay for Daze when on the draw.

I cast Gravestone 4 times, it resolved 3 times. The time it was countered, my opponent Surgicalled it away taking both other copies from my hand that they had seen with Probe (they wanted to get some use out of the Surgical & didn't want me to just cast copy #2). Speaking with my opponents after the match they had between 2-3 Surgicals which were just killed off by the Gravestone. All my UWx Opponents were on 3 Surgicals, 1 C-Priest, as their sideboard plan. One Miracles player had a Kozilek's Return, and the Stoneblade player had an Engineered Explosives too. One of them commented how the Gravestone just shutdown their Snapcasters which really hindered their gameplan. One of the times Gravestone resolved it saved my dredger from Surgical, but my dredges were poor and I was outraced.

I'm going to continue testing Gravestone, but it seemed to be just as good as I expected it to be. As long as DRS is running rampant in Legacy and people are running Surgical as their primary choice of graveyard hate, Gravestone seems to be the best anti-hate. Every single opponent had to read Gravestone and at least commented on having never seen the card before.

Oestrus
02-04-2018, 05:38 AM
Hey, nice to see that someone wants to bring dredge to bigger tournaments!
Your list looks good, Eruxus had much success online with it, he almost got into top 8 of the last challenge with it.
For the top decks:

Grixis Delver: +3 firestorm, - dread return, - 2 breakthrough
You can try to be greedier on the play and board some number of gravestones in. It just feels very slow vs their mana denial plan.

Pile: their main plan is snap+surgical and drs, so gravestone comes in and firestorm too. Cut dread return and some LED/draw spells and amalgams because they are better equipped to deal with 3/3s than delver and something has to come out.

Miracles: same as pile, but you don't need firestorm on the play. It can be good on the draw, because they will try to fluster/blast your studies/lootings and containment priest becomes a real thing.

ANT: try to be fast and discard their hand with therapies, board in iona. Amalgams are the obvious cuts.

Elves: same as ANT but 3 firestorms come in for studies.

Chalice decks: they will have some leylines, so tear comes in. Ashen rider if they go very big or have ensnaring bridge.
Firestorm can do work if they run blood moon and lets you discard through chalice. Amalgams and street wraiths can come out.

Crop rotation decks: discard their crop rotation and try to go fast and have ashen rider for problematic lands/marit lage. I don't think that gravestone is good enough vs loam, because of wasteland, just try to belcher them.

Show and tell: board in ashen rider and iona for amalgams and one street wraith.

Death and taxes: they will have very many different annoying permanents after turn 2, so create a big enough board before turn 2. On the draw, your best chance to win is LED or sniping their hatepiece with therapy after you cycled SW to dredge. Don't board in too much anti-hate on the draw to make both of those plans as consistent as possible. Firestorm is better than tear, because it is proactive. Just present your maindeck on the play and do what our deck does best. You might get blown out by faerie macabre or surgical, but fighting their hateful permanents is a losing battle because they have mom, manadenial and tutors for more hate.

Do you tend to treat BUG Delver or Shardless BUG like Grixis Delver, and not bring in Gravestones? Or more like Czech Pile, where you bring Gravestones in?

Thanks in advance!

Orim67
02-05-2018, 05:48 AM
I haven't played vs non-combo shardless decks much, but I don't think that shutting down only drs is worth it, especially if they have many free counters, wasteland and a fast clock. Gravestone is much better when the games go longer and surgical snap surgical gets scary. Shardless also doesn't play many surgicals I think because artifact based hate is better for them? I wouldn't board in gravestone vs both decks, but it is close because sometimes delver players like to keep hands based on drs. But in another game you fail to race an angler + delver + wasteland because you decided to timewalk yourself turn 1 and not cast looting instead.

Runninonwater
02-06-2018, 09:05 PM
Hello everybody!

Im new to the dredge deck but it was the first really weird deck i got to see when i got introduced to magic 7-8 years ago ish..
Anyway, im finally building it, couldn't assemble it because of our legacy scene died out, but this is what im aiming for atm with the cards i have so far:

3x Breakthrough
4x Bridge from Below
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Careful Study
4x Cephalid Coliseum
2x City of Brass
1x Dread Return
4x Faithless Looting
1x Flame-Kin Zealot
3x Gemstone Mine
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
3x Golgari Thug
3x Ichorid
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Mana Confluence
4x Narcomoeba
2x Prized Amalgam
3x Putrid Imp
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Street Wraith
1x Tolarian Winds

For sideboard i got:
1 Iona
1 Ashen Rider
x Nature's Claim
1 Darkblast
2-4 Faerie Macabres

Tolarian winds is there for fun because i got a foiled one. Sadly i only got 1 LED so far.
Replaced 3 leds with Tolarian Winds, Dread Return and FKZ, combo kill and fun What if explosive turn.

One big question tho since Leyline of the Void is an expensive card where i live and the options i have atm when it comes to ordering cards:
Is Leyline of the Void essential in our sideboard?
How frequently does it see play in the sideboard in the dredge deck?

Thank you in advance!

slave
02-08-2018, 09:10 AM
Don't stress about LotV for LED-Dredge - Faerie Macabre is a better fit (think icky).


.... because you decided to timewalk yourself turn 1 and not cast looting instead.
Yeah this was my main concern too.
I get that Gravestone can stop DRS/Surg being a threat immediately, but mana for this deck is limited.
We can race DRS & Surg, so do we really need this card?
I'm testing this, hoping it's better than I think. But I can't help but think that whilst DRS & Surg are a pain, I've not been stomped by them routinely.
....I do however get stomped by RiP, LotV & Cage.

Que
02-08-2018, 11:28 AM
Don't stress about LotV for LED-Dredge - Faerie Macabre is a better fit (think icky).


Yeah this was my main concern too.
I get that Gravestone can stop DRS/Surg being a threat immediately, but mana for this deck is limited.
We can race DRS & Surg, so do we really need this card?
I'm testing this, hoping it's better than I think. But I can't help but think that whilst DRS & Surg are a pain, I've not been stomped by them routinely.
....I do however get stomped by RiP, LotV & Cage.

Yeah I was in the "we need to max out on this card" camp when it released. But I believe your assessment is correct in that we normally race DRS and imo if were losing to it its usually because they're backing it up with disruption (countermagic, Wasteland,) or a 2nd DRS which is more difficult to overcome. I've been trying out different main deck and sb configurations recently and also realized that Gravestone suffers from some of the same inherent criticisms some of our other sb cards like Nature's Claim receive. Gravestone is only really going to be effective when they actually have DRS or Surgical (Nature's claim is only going to be effective when they actually have Cage, RIP,etc), but the games where they play out Delver, Young Pyro then back them up with disruption will have meant you played a turn 1 do nothing card while they beat you down with their general strategy. FeelsBadMan.

@ROW. You don't need LOTV and I would suggest you use the other available options to you beginning with Fearie Macabre. There is also Surgical Extraction and Tormond's Crypt.

gibbousm
02-10-2018, 12:10 AM
Don't stress out over what graveyard hate to run, there are many available options and all are playable. Some will fit your playstyle better than others. I've run Faeries, Surgicals, Leylines, Memory's Journeys, etc.


I'm continuing to test Silent Gravestone at 3 copies. My experience has been that it needs to come down super early for it to be good, essentially turn 1 or 2. I don't bring it in just for DRS, I mostly bring it in if expecting Surgical effects.

In general, all of my opponents who I played it against so far, have been completely unfamiliar with the card. Right now most of my opponents have been relying heavily on Surgical and the turn 1/2 Gravestone has left them with dead cards in hand. For example when I therapied my round 4 opponent, they had 1 Surgical & 1 Extripate and were willing to Force my second Gravestone so if they found green mana they could Abrupt Decay the first copy and turn those cards back on.

That said, I also had a game where I did not find my Gravestones and an early Surgical on my Bridges made me lose the race. This is a problem that all anti-hate Dredge runs suffers from. You need the answer pretty much immediately and if your opponent never finds their hate, your anti-hate is just a dead card.

So far I've been enjoying Gravestone, I'm going to keep testing it. I've got some minor changes I plan to make in the main deck, fiddling around with the number of Breakthroughs and Careful Studies I run.


For racing DRS: Game 1 its typically easy to outrace DRS. You just need to overwhelm it, hit enough Ichorids/Narcos and Bridges. Land->LED->Loot Breaking LED in response is at its best here. Street Wraith stifling a DRS activation often gives you enough of a lead.

Ronald Deuce
02-10-2018, 01:05 AM
Given the general efficacy of Gravestone against a lot of the format's graveyard hate, does anyone think this is likely to spur an increase in genuinely terrible cards for us like Leyline or Rest in Peace?

Orim67
02-10-2018, 05:58 AM
I don't think so because dredge is still less popular than turbo depths, b/r reanimator and lands. But snapcaster decks might start to keep in some artifact removal.

Parcher
02-10-2018, 08:41 AM
I don't think so because dredge is still less popular than turbo depths, b/r reanimator and lands. But snapcaster decks might start to keep in some artifact removal.

What Graveyard hate is good against Turbo Depths?

Orim67
02-10-2018, 09:55 AM
Blue decks like to surgical dark depths after they wasteland it or edict/swords marit lage. Caseyc even has a ground seal in the sideboard for that reason I think. Surgical is just very good right now, because lands can't grip it, depths doesn't do much without dark depths and it is free vs b/r reanimator. It is also fine vs storm and miracles.

Parcher
02-10-2018, 11:04 AM
Blue decks like to surgical dark depths after they wasteland it or edict/swords marit lage. Caseyc even has a ground seal in the sideboard for that reason I think. Surgical is just very good right now, because lands can't grip it, depths doesn't do much without dark depths and it is free vs b/r reanimator. It is also fine vs storm and miracles.

I feel it's poorly advised to cater your plan to what bad players may do. Boarding in a card that is totally useless in a matchup unless you have already foiled their primary(in the case of Turbo Depths, only) plan is setting yourself up for failure. More to the point, Surgical is not included in sideboards for Depths. If players want to bring in the card in that matchup, well, I don't play that deck. So good luck with that. But indicating Turbo Depths as a marker for Surgical's saturation is probably misleading.

Ingo
02-10-2018, 01:24 PM
I feel it's poorly advised to cater your plan to what bad players may do. Boarding in a card that is totally useless in a matchup unless you have already foiled their primary(in the case of Turbo Depths, only) plan is setting yourself up for failure. More to the point, Surgical is not included in sideboards for Depths. If players want to bring in the card in that matchup, well, I don't play that deck. So good luck with that. But indicating Turbo Depths as a marker for Surgical's saturation is probably misleading.

Surgical isnt in the side for Turbo Depths as it doesn't hit its primary plan, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't board it in, as long as it's better than the card it replaces (like lightning bolt?). Turbo Depths is dead without Depths, so even as a secondary action, its game over if it pans out.
I think this is what Orim 67 meant, rather than indicating Surgical as frontline hate against Depths.

Orim67
02-10-2018, 06:29 PM
Yeah, I might be wrong and I just got lucky that one game where I surgicaled depths as grixis delver. I'm not an expert for fair blue. But when everyone has at least 2 surgicals in their sideboard, there might be a good reason for it. Dredge is still not popular enough to make them change their sideboard.
Surgical also synergises well with delver, snapcaster and young pyromancer. Rip has bad synergy with search and snap and leylines don't work well in blue decks.

Darkness
02-10-2018, 06:35 PM
How is the MU against Eldrazi stompy?

Orim67
02-10-2018, 07:09 PM
Game 1 is very favorable, because they can't remove bridges and chalice on 1 sometimes doesn't do anything (breakthrough, led + coliseum). We also have a good chance to win by slow dredging after they lock our draw spells out with chalice. Game 2/3 gets much harder because of leylines. It is very unlikely to have a fast hand + enchantment removal, so if our eldrazi opponent has a reasonable hand + leyline, we are often pretty dead. I think that it gets hard enough game 2/3 that the matchup is unfavourable.

Que
02-10-2018, 09:21 PM
Game 1 is very favorable, because they can't remove bridges and chalice on 1 sometimes doesn't do anything (breakthrough, led + coliseum).

We still have to note that Endless One on X=0 would do it. :(

Orim67
02-11-2018, 03:18 AM
Oops. But you can easily therapy is if they don't have a chalice out. Don't know why I forgot that, but in my experience, I could often just bring back ichorids every turn to make zombies. I guess that catrips make it much easier to have a lightning bolt at the right time.

SHABOOGS
02-12-2018, 10:34 AM
Finally got a chance to test Silent Gravestone in our monthly legacy tournament yesterday and I was not impressed. It did not matter during the one match up when I brought them in even though it resolved. Will still test it for a few more times before I switch back to my usual sideboard strategies.

slave
02-12-2018, 07:07 PM
How is the MU against Eldrazi stompy?
Unfavourable.
I haven't played against the deck a lot, but I've regularly felt I had an even chance in game1, even tho we have Endless & Chalice to deal with. I've seen Walking Ballista played in this deck too. After that I feel our chances take a major hit once they include LotV.
I haven't played against E-Stompy since I started playing with Street Wraith again, I'm keen to see what the difference might be....

Ronald Deuce
02-12-2018, 09:41 PM
Unfavourable.
I haven't played against the deck a lot, but I've regularly felt I had an even chance in game1, even tho we have Endless & Chalice to deal with. I've seen Walking Ballista played in this deck too. After that I feel our chances take a major hit once they include LotV.
I haven't played against E-Stompy since I started playing with Street Wraith again, I'm keen to see what the difference might be....

Force of Will is good there, from my limited experience. But yeah, it's not great if they hit Chalice or Endless One. Haven't seen Ballistas there personally, but that's anecdotal. Another problem is that they often mulligan to Leyline.

For a while I was just loading up on Dread Returns and targets and cutting back cantrips to go for the DDD plan, but I can't say it was all that great, even though it was markedly better than not doing it if we were on the draw.

shawn_low
02-18-2018, 05:06 AM
Greetings (un)fair dredgers. Own the deck in paper which I pull out once in awhile.

Finally decided to play on MTGO and picked up dredge because, well, it's cheap.

Does anyone here stream or have links to good dredge matches to watch?

I've watched Moreno paper matches ofc. Anything else would help!

Thanks!

shawn_low
02-19-2018, 06:56 PM
Finally got a chance to test Silent Gravestone in our monthly legacy tournament yesterday and I was not impressed. It did not matter during the one match up when I brought them in even though it resolved. Will still test it for a few more times before I switch back to my usual sideboard strategies.

Had a few games where Gravestone was good. One was a corner-case MU against Opps All Spells. Shut off their DR win-cons.

Shutting off Snapcaster targets seems good. It's a little slow against DRS but could buy you time depending on your own hand (if you ended up not racing and slow dredging to win). It gets decayed against 4C and BUG eventually...those MUs seem better suited to race rather than protecting the GY with Gravestone.

Had a hilarious mistake where I boarded it in for some Tezzeret-style deck. They cast Dack Fayden, stole it and cracked it to exile the GYs. Opps. So yeah, corner case but if they take control of it, it ends up being free GY hate for them! lols.

Izor
02-23-2018, 09:29 PM
Been a long time since I last played Dredge at a tournament. I ended up playing a local today and went 3-1, losing my only match due to a wrong decision (not sure if it was an actual mistake given my information).

Basically I played against an Elf opponent whose deck I helped building, and I knew how his sideboard plan usually looked against me. The last time I checked it consisted of 1 Crypt, 2 Surgical and the 4 DRS plus Ooze.
After turn 2ing him game 1 he leads on turn 1 DRS in game 2. My 8 cards on turn 1 after drawing were: Gemstone Mine, Careful Study, Breakthrough, 2 x Grave-Troll, Stinkweed, Firestorm, blank. My options were:
- Turn 1 Study into discard 2 Dredgers (likely 2 different ones to hedge against Surgical). He would then take one of them with DRS and if my draw step Dredge bricked I'd be in an awkward position with no more Dredgers in the yard and only the one land for either Breakthrough or Firestorm. In this case it would have been strictly better to Firestorm turn 1.
- Turn 1 Firestorm discarding 2 Dredgers (2 different ones again) with the plan to turn 2 Careful Study. This would probably be the safest play which is only bad if I don't hit anything relevant off of the 3 Dredges I get and my opponent gets another turn to use any turn 2 DRS or Ooze.
- Turn 1 Firestorm discarding 2 Dredgers (2 different ones again) with the plan to turn 2 Breakthrough for the win. This would beat all of his creature based hate and only bear the risk of bricking on the first Dredge while resolving Breakthrough, leaving me with no hand and one Dredge per turn for the rest of the game.
- Turn 1 Firestorm discarding all 3 Dredgers with the plan to turn 2 Breakthrough for the win. This would beat any DRS and/or Ooze and have a decent to high chance to end the game next turn (boarded in Iona). I also wouldn't lose any percentages against the previous option in case of a potential Surgical, however, if he had exactly the Crypt in hand and had decided not to drop it on turn 1, he would get all my Dredgers. This would still leave me with Study and Breakthrough to restart though.

Given what I expected his hate package to look like, I went for the last option. Turns out he changed his board to 3 Crypts and he had been sandbagging one in hand. He then got all my Dredgers and dropped a 2nd DRS plus Quirion Ranger on turn 2. Yuck. My Study does find another Dredger plus a second land, but my first Dredge upon resolving Breakthrough bricks and I'm left with nothing after his DRS goes to work. Game 3 I mull to a 6 with Coliseum, Study and Street Wraith that needed to find another Land or LED in my top 5 cards to go off on turn 2. I failed to do so and didn't get to do much of anything before I die on his 3rd turn.

Had I gone for the 3rd option (or possibly the 2nd) above I would have very likely won game 2 and thus swept the match 2-0 in quick fashion. This way I lost and my clean 2-0 sweeps against Infect, Eldrazi Stompy and Burn in the other 3 rounds didn't amount to anything better than a 3-1 record with a good opp score, resulting in 3rd place overall.
After the Elves match I tell my opponent that I threw away game 2. We then discuss whether it was actually a greedy misplay or whether my decision was defensible with the information I had at the time. Any thoughts on that?


Cheers.

Ronald Deuce
02-24-2018, 11:04 AM
Any thoughts on that?

With the information you were working with, I think you probably made the right call. Obviously in retrospect the sideboard switcheroo makes it a bad move, but under the circumstances I probably would've done the same thing. One thing you didn't mention is that Elves is comparable to us in speed, so if you'd not had a good dredge open the following turn, it's quite possible that he would've steamrolled you because—ime—Elves is more consistent than we are, though perhaps less consistently explosive.

Crypt is a savage card; it's not Leyline, but it's more flexible. If I'd been in the blind, I probably would've kept a Dredger back just in case and Firestormed for 2, but a psych-out is a psych-out, and I think your opponent probably made the change to Crypts specifically because he knew what you were on and didn't want you to see his sideboard tech.

notkevin
03-05-2018, 07:20 PM
Played in a 54-man staples tournament on Sunday with Que, managed to get 10th as the highest 4-2. Played against the following:

2-1 ANT
1-0 Food Chain due to deck check (played out 3 games later anyway, won 2-1)
2-0 W Eldrazi + Taxes
0-2 Jeskai Stoneblade
0-2 DnT
2-1 Grixis Delver

The Jeskai Stoneblade match was streamed, I'd love some tips on things I should do better! https://www.twitch.tv/videos/235281206?t=02h32m51s

A couple notes from rewatching the footage:
- I had played him last month at the February Knight Ware staples event, and somehow remembered him running Wasteland; probably should've use City instead of Mine for the second PImp, to keep lands around for flashbacks later
- At 2:48:46, completely brainfarted when he stifled one of the two Ichorid triggers; should've brought 1 out still >.< Don't think it would've mattered, though
- What a great hand for g2, but such terrible dredges T_T Once that Priest came down, it was gonna be rough, because I only sided in 2 Firestorm (had access to 3, but also brought in a bunch of other stuff like Serenity and Wear//Tear, so I figured I should diversify my hate more) and I had hit both t1. I was hoping for Zombie beats, but counterspells op :<
- The graveyard pointing at 3:08:08 was indeed me missing the Thug death trigger, oops =/

I'll try to type up a more formal report later :)

Que
03-05-2018, 10:47 PM
Played in a 54-man staples tournament on Sunday with Que, managed to get 10th as the highest 4-2. Played against the following:

2-1 ANT
1-0 Food Chain due to deck check (played out 3 games later anyway, won 2-1)
2-0 W Eldrazi + Taxes
0-2 Jeskai Stoneblade
0-2 DnT
2-1 Grixis Delver

The Jeskai Stoneblade match was streamed, I'd love some tips on things I should do better! https://www.twitch.tv/videos/235281206?t=02h32m51s

A couple notes from rewatching the footage:
- I had played him last month at the February Knight Ware staples event, and somehow remembered him running Wasteland; probably should've use City instead of Mine for the second PImp, to keep lands around for flashbacks later
- At 2:48:46, completely brainfarted when he stifled one of the two Ichorid triggers; should've brought 1 out still >.< Don't think it would've mattered, though
- What a great hand for g2, but such terrible dredges T_T Once that Priest came down, it was gonna be rough, because I only sided in 2 Firestorm (had access to 3, but also brought in a bunch of other stuff like Serenity and Wear//Tear, so I figured I should diversify my hate more) and I had hit both t1. I was hoping for Zombie beats, but counterspells op :<
- The graveyard pointing at 3:08:08 was indeed me missing the Thug death trigger, oops =/

I'll try to type up a more formal report later :)


Aside from those notes you mentioned you played very well.

Damn that G2 was heartbreaking. Those early dredges had a lot of blanks. And then that Daze, Force, Daze at end was gross. I have played David now a few times so he's had good practice. He definitely knew when to get rid of Ichorid and what to Stifle and which spells to counter.

Pische
03-06-2018, 07:49 AM
Played in a 54-man staples tournament on Sunday with Que, managed to get 10th as the highest 4-2. Played against the following:

2-1 ANT
1-0 Food Chain due to deck check (played out 3 games later anyway, won 2-1)
2-0 W Eldrazi + Taxes
0-2 Jeskai Stoneblade
0-2 DnT
2-1 Grixis Delver

The Jeskai Stoneblade match was streamed, I'd love some tips on things I should do better! https://www.twitch.tv/videos/235281206?t=02h32m51s

A couple notes from rewatching the footage:
- I had played him last month at the February Knight Ware staples event, and somehow remembered him running Wasteland; probably should've use City instead of Mine for the second PImp, to keep lands around for flashbacks later
- At 2:48:46, completely brainfarted when he stifled one of the two Ichorid triggers; should've brought 1 out still >.< Don't think it would've mattered, though
- What a great hand for g2, but such terrible dredges T_T Once that Priest came down, it was gonna be rough, because I only sided in 2 Firestorm (had access to 3, but also brought in a bunch of other stuff like Serenity and Wear//Tear, so I figured I should diversify my hate more) and I had hit both t1. I was hoping for Zombie beats, but counterspells op :<
- The graveyard pointing at 3:08:08 was indeed me missing the Thug death trigger, oops =/

I'll try to type up a more formal report later :)

Stoneblade keeps on being an insidious matchup, because post side we may want to be very fast, as they could pack serious hate like priest and rip, but a butterskull shuts down our plans of racing them.
Currently my plan against them is going all in with the petals and DR + ashen rider on the play, while bringing in the wear/tears and 2 fstorms on the draw. Ancient grudge would be cool against them because it allows you to go all in at first and then eventually destroy a batterskull.
You played well. Playing on camera is harder. Your opponent lands were horrible.

Manroe
03-07-2018, 04:46 AM
Hi Everyone,

Dredge was my first legacy deck when I entered the format ~2008ish and I loved it but my lack of knowledge of the format and overall just being green to MtG didn't give me results. Soon after finishing this deck I moved to Burn then eventually good ol' Rug Delver. I've come full circle and I am eager to give dredge another shot. I've been lurking for a little while and I was hoping to get some feedback from some of the more experienced pilots about the state of Dredge today. I know that Dredge is very customizable to individual play styles but this is the list I initially was interested in:

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=18450&d=314624&f=LE

1. How good is Prized Amalgam?
2. Is a list without Cabal Therapy really ever better than a list without? This seems like sin to me.
3. Is Silent Gravestone out of the board worth the slots? (I'm leaning yes)

I really would like to play this deck at a 5k this weekend. I've narrowed my deck choice down to this and Soldier Stompy. I played at an event at the same place last weekend and there were a lot of lands/loam decks and crop rotation makes me quite nervous. Any other advice on the more recent modern lists is welcome! Thank you!!

Pische
03-07-2018, 09:31 AM
Hi Everyone,

Dredge was my first legacy deck when I entered the format ~2008ish and I loved it but my lack of knowledge of the format and overall just being green to MtG didn't give me results. Soon after finishing this deck I moved to Burn then eventually good ol' Rug Delver. I've come full circle and I am eager to give dredge another shot. I've been lurking for a little while and I was hoping to get some feedback from some of the more experienced pilots about the state of Dredge today. I know that Dredge is very customizable to individual play styles but this is the list I initially was interested in:

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=18450&d=314624&f=LE

1. How good is Prized Amalgam?
2. Is a list without Cabal Therapy really ever better than a list without? This seems like sin to me.
3. Is Silent Gravestone out of the board worth the slots? (I'm leaning yes)

I really would like to play this deck at a 5k this weekend. I've narrowed my deck choice down to this and Soldier Stompy. I played at an event at the same place last weekend and there were a lot of lands/loam decks and crop rotation makes me quite nervous. Any other advice on the more recent modern lists is welcome! Thank you!!

1. Prized Amalgam is very good if you're running FoW, otherwise it will often be an overwin card when it works and "I wish I had this other card" when it doesn't
2. I can't think of a single reason to not run Cabal Therapy. It's the single best card of the deck if not of all legacy and the main reason why this deck can beat anything if played correctly
3. I don't know. I like the card and it's been pretty good for me. The fact that it costs only 1 is huge, since many times it's your play on turn 1 and eats a FoW, letting you play your enablers on turn 2

notkevin
03-07-2018, 04:54 PM
Hi Everyone,

Dredge was my first legacy deck when I entered the format ~2008ish and I loved it but my lack of knowledge of the format and overall just being green to MtG didn't give me results. Soon after finishing this deck I moved to Burn then eventually good ol' Rug Delver. I've come full circle and I am eager to give dredge another shot. I've been lurking for a little while and I was hoping to get some feedback from some of the more experienced pilots about the state of Dredge today. I know that Dredge is very customizable to individual play styles but this is the list I initially was interested in:

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=18450&d=314624&f=LE

1. How good is Prized Amalgam?
2. Is a list without Cabal Therapy really ever better than a list without? This seems like sin to me.
3. Is Silent Gravestone out of the board worth the slots? (I'm leaning yes)

I really would like to play this deck at a 5k this weekend. I've narrowed my deck choice down to this and Soldier Stompy. I played at an event at the same place last weekend and there were a lot of lands/loam decks and crop rotation makes me quite nervous. Any other advice on the more recent modern lists is welcome! Thank you!!

1. I've also been pretty unimpressed with PA, having run them a couple times; it helps against Surgical on Ichorid, but otherwise I think I'd almost always want Ichorid instead (tbf, I don't play Force).
2. The pilot admitted they straight-up forgot about the Therapies while registering the deck, so they also agree it's a sin :P https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/7x0hvx/1k_legacy_in_switzerland_luzern_1000_pricepool/du4ogw3/
3. Still undecided on 3; I think they're better against Reanimator than Faerie Macabre (and have additional uses against things like DRS, Snap, Surgical, Loam, etc.), but the fact that they don't really synergize with the rest of our gameplan is awkward (eg, at least Macabre is a black creature and is free [can interact on t1 on the draw, allows us to progress our gameplan unimpeded]). I think that into an open field, they're probably more correct, since they cover a lot more bases.

Manroe
03-08-2018, 05:05 PM
Thanks for the insight! If I were going to get therapies in the list I mentioned, what am I subbing them in for? I was thinking 1 land, 1 amalgam, 2 street wraith.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

Orim67
03-08-2018, 05:40 PM
I would cut the collective brutalities and keep the street wraiths.
I would of course recommend my list, which I tuned to beat the fair Drs decks of the meta and it has been pretty good at doing that. I'm at 80% vs grixis delver right now online. I also like to solve most problems by just dredging more, so I focused on getting as many dredges as possible in the early turns.

Here is my list: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/961769#paper

Blastoderm
03-08-2018, 09:04 PM
I would cut the collective brutalities and keep the street wraiths.
I would of course recommend my list, which I tuned to beat the fair Drs decks of the meta and it has been pretty good at doing that. I'm at 80% vs grixis delver right now online. I also like to solve most problems by just dredging more, so I focused on getting as many dredges as possible in the early turns.

Here is my list: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/961769#paper

Why do you prefer putrid imp over more careful study?

notkevin
03-08-2018, 09:17 PM
Why do you prefer putrid imp over more careful study?

Not Orim (please correct me if I'm wrong), but the big reason is that a lot of these grindy decks play things like Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm; creature enablers dodge these very easily :)

Follow-up question, though - I noticed you switched over to 3 Breakthrough, 1 Careful. Why did you make that switch? Is it that Breakthrough is too "all-in", but still necessary in some number against other combo decks?

Orim67
03-09-2018, 02:13 AM
You are absolutely right about PImp. It feels good when your hand has LED PImp and Coliseum and you see a flusterstorm after it is already too late. Other reasons are:
Another creature that flashes back therapy while making zombies/baits a bolt or swords. Black creature for ichorid.
Makes it almost impossible to brick on dredgers if it stays on board.

I'm personally a huge fan of breakthrough, because it is gg when it resolves with dredgers in the yard and it is still a fine setup with x=1, especially when you have a coliseum as a land. Breakthrough is just bad in multiples, so I didn't want to play the full 4.

Pische
03-09-2018, 09:09 AM
You are absolutely right about PImp. It feels good when your hand has LED PImp and Coliseum and you see a flusterstorm after it is already too late. Other reasons are:
Another creature that flashes back therapy while making zombies/baits a bolt or swords. Black creature for ichorid.
Makes it almost impossible to brick on dredgers if it stays on board.

I'm personally a huge fan of breakthrough, because it is gg when it resolves with dredgers in the yard and it is still a fine setup with x=1, especially when you have a coliseum as a land. Breakthrough is just bad in multiples, so I didn't want to play the full 4.

I basically play the same maindeck cards as you, except for the 3 PImps in your list that are 3 more Studies in mine.
I love how 8 draw spells let me dig for wear/tears or Firestorms in g2, but I gotta respect those consistent results you have online.
I'm participating in a big event next week, so I'm not changing anything for now, but I will give the PImps a try in the future.

Que
03-09-2018, 11:54 AM
For me its not even a matter of PImp Vs. Careful Study rather than Street Wraith Vs. Careful Study. One is a redraw that allows you to circumvent countermagic while feeding Ichorid and providing some protection against DRS/Surgical (Ichorids and Narcos are still susceptible along with Cabal Therapies/Dread Return and Bridge from Below in the case of Surgical) while the other allows you to Draw(Dredge) while providing a discard outlet at the same time something that Wraith doesn't do. At the moment it seems to just be a matter of deck space. Wraith makes the most sense in the current meta and Careful Study is subjectively the weakest card in the deck. There is worth noting that having Wraith lessens your reliance of actually having to cast spells and with lots of Chalice decks running around it would makes sense to have less spells to get neutered. I can see playing out a turn 1 PImp and being set in the face of a Turn 1 Chalice on 1 assuming we were on the play whereas turn 1 Careful Study binning two dredgers may not be enough after you're locked out of playing anymore spells past turn 1.

Also we can still bring in the Spell Pierce/Flusterstorm idea here too again as running more Wraiths over Studies means we aren't using the stack giving us the ability to churn through our deck while the opponent sits idle with soft countermagic. Might be the reason I also noticed Orim running the full set of Cephalid Coliseums which again side step countermagic (still doesn't help us cast Therapy, PImp, or Faithless though xD)

All that being said cutting back on Studies will mean that a FOW on a Turn 1 PImp will actually hurt quite a lot unless your opener has additional form of discard either LED or Faithless, the weaker Cabal Therapy targeting yourself or even Breakthrough if desperate. Ultimately it is preference, but I urge players to try running both variants to see their strengths and weaknesses. Happy Dredging! :smile:

Orim67
03-09-2018, 05:23 PM
Street wraith also alows some lines that are very good vs countermagic. Not only ddd, but imagine a hand of LED, coliseum, wraith + dredger. It doesn't matter if you are on the play or on the draw, you can play the LED, which often doesn't get countered, then play coliseum and go nuts.
Somehow my turn 1 imps very rarely get countered. That might be a mistake by my opponents, but I can't complain.
Wraith also lets you keep some hands without a land, but with a LED. I think that it is very hard to compare study and wraith, because they are very different in many situations.
I think that I will try some studies over PImp in tje near future.

I also thought about cutting the ancient grudge to make room for iona or another enchantment removal. Removing artifacts hasn't been very important and I don't even bring it in for value vs stoneblade decks.

Vissah
03-09-2018, 08:01 PM
Street wraith also alows some lines that are very good vs countermagic. Not only ddd, but imagine a hand of LED, coliseum, wraith + dredger. It doesn't matter if you are on the play or on the draw, you can play the LED, which often doesn't get countered, then play coliseum and go nuts.
Somehow my turn 1 imps very rarely get countered. That might be a mistake by my opponents, but I can't complain.
Wraith also lets you keep some hands without a land, but with a LED. I think that it is very hard to compare study and wraith, because they are very different in many situations.
I think that I will try some studies over PImp in tje near future.

I also thought about cutting the ancient grudge to make room for iona or another enchantment removal. Removing artifacts hasn't been very important and I don't even bring it in for value vs stoneblade decks.

I have to agree on the point that PImp hardly fets countered. Yesterday at FNM it was an All Star that won3/4 games for me. Making me discard, attack and even use it to Therapy when it was needed. For some reason your opponent does not see it as a dangerous card but when you cast something like a Looting they go crazy and can not throw down their counter fast enough. It looks so innocent while unanswered is able to take over the game all by itself because they also don`t want to use removal on it for some reason.

Orim mate how is your verdict about Silent Gravestone? I got a couple yesterday and wanto try them out this or next week but I`m having a hard time thinking what else to cut from the board when siding them in against Delver decks.

Orim67
03-10-2018, 10:27 AM
I only board in silent gravestone vs miracles and pile to stop surgical snap surgical.
Against grixis delver I'm much more worried about getting dazed/forced and wastelanded out of the game and their surgicals are much less scary, because we actually don't need that many things to beat their board. Surgicals only get scary if they have drs to eat ichorid, too or somehow deny too much bridge value so they can surgical ichorids. I only side in firestorm for an uncounterable discard outlet that threatens to kill drs or their first creature to protect future bridges.

Silent gravestone is insane vs these control decks. It feels like it makes these matchups almost unlosable if you draw it early and have a semi-reasonable way to start dredging.
But it hasn't performed too well vs stoneblade decks, because they often don't rely on surgical+snap as much as the other control decks. I have seen more actual hate from stoneblade and gravestone does nothing vs that. Might need more testing vs stoneblade if it is worth the risk.

Vissah
03-10-2018, 07:55 PM
I only board in silent gravestone vs miracles and pile to stop surgical snap surgical.
Against grixis delver I'm much more worried about getting dazed/forced and wastelanded out of the game and their surgicals are much less scary, because we actually don't need that many things to beat their board. Surgicals only get scary if they have drs to eat ichorid, too or somehow deny too much bridge value so they can surgical ichorids. I only side in firestorm for an uncounterable discard outlet that threatens to kill drs or their first creature to protect future bridges.

Silent gravestone is insane vs these control decks. It feels like it makes these matchups almost unlosable if you draw it early and have a semi-reasonable way to start dredging.
But it hasn't performed too well vs stoneblade decks, because they often don't rely on surgical+snap as much as the other control decks. I have seen more actual hate from stoneblade and gravestone does nothing vs that. Might need more testing vs stoneblade if it is worth the risk.

I see. Thanks for the reply mate. I will try them out somewhere next week.

trinkets
03-12-2018, 06:22 PM
Any idea if dredge has an active discord? That'd be pretty sweet to bounce off ideas.

PS: Also curious about what do you do when you know the opponent is boarding a single Graffdigger's Cage. Do you pack hate for it, if they don't have a way to tutor the cage, or do you just hope they'll see it too late for it to matter?

Serenity has been getting rid of Leyline of the Void for me, but grafdiggers in a delver shell usually gets me to scoop.

Blastoderm
03-12-2018, 06:31 PM
Any idea if dredge has an active discord? That'd be pretty sweet to bounce off ideas.

PS: Also curious about what do you do when you know the opponent is boarding a single Graffdigger's Cage. Do you pack hate for it, if they don't have a way to tutor the cage, or do you just hope they'll see it too late for it to matter?

Serenity has been getting rid of Leyline of the Void for me, but grafdiggers in a delver shell usually gets me to scoop.

If it's only 1... i would say ignore it but if it bothers you that much and you have some room in the sideboard you could play Abrade.

trinkets
03-13-2018, 05:20 AM
If it's only 1... i would say ignore it but if it bothers you that much and you have some room in the sideboard you could play Abrade.

I don't think it's worth it, tbh. If it's a 1 off and they have a lot of protection and filtering, then most likely I'm boarding in anti-hate cards and probably not seeing them often enough. Not to mention they'll probably get countered since all they have to to is protect the Cage. It sucks folding to a single card, but that's just the nature of the beast I guess.

How does everyone else deal with Cage? Do you also move on to the next game and hope to be fast enough as well?

Despite seeming like it is a rational way to deal with it, it doesn't seem reliable enough. Or am I just overthinking it?

Vissah
03-13-2018, 10:48 PM
Any idea if dredge has an active discord? That'd be pretty sweet to bounce off ideas.

PS: Also curious about what do you do when you know the opponent is boarding a single Graffdigger's Cage. Do you pack hate for it, if they don't have a way to tutor the cage, or do you just hope they'll see it too late for it to matter?

Serenity has been getting rid of Leyline of the Void for me, but grafdiggers in a delver shell usually gets me to scoop.

Well if it just one you just go faster than them and kill them.
It`s simple with decks like these if they have it they have. That is just how it works with Dredge.

slave
03-16-2018, 10:01 PM
How does everyone else deal with Cage? Do you also move on to the next game and hope to be fast enough as well?

Despite seeming like it is a rational way to deal with it, it doesn't seem reliable enough. Or am I just overthinking it?
Not really rational, but given our main strategy is to "therapy" away their counter/hate and beat them down. It's usually effective.
Once they board in, we have heaps of ways to get rid of hate.
Serenity, Abrupt Decay, Claims etc. are all decent, although Decay does require you to run a few more lands to be semi-reliable.

slave
03-18-2018, 08:07 AM
Checking out some Domaria cards, and none make me think "dredge". There are some interesting casual cards tho.

Oestrus
03-19-2018, 12:18 PM
FYI: Dredge made Top 8 in the Legacy event at the MKM Series this past weekend.

http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/coverage-mkm-series-rome-2018-legacy/

Pische
03-19-2018, 04:25 PM
FYI: Dredge made Top 8 in the Legacy event at the MKM Series this past weekend.

http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/coverage-mkm-series-rome-2018-legacy/
That is me!

SHABOOGS
03-19-2018, 04:46 PM
That is me!

Congrats on the finish! Any chance for a tournament report? I'm interested to read about your sideboard choices especially the 2 silent gravestone.

Pische
03-19-2018, 05:01 PM
Congrats on the finish! Any chance for a tournament report? I'm interested to read about your sideboard choices especially the 2 silent gravestone.
Thank you!
I'll try to write something tomorrow.

Vissah
03-19-2018, 07:43 PM
That is me!

Congrats on your top 8 finish.

I`m thinking of taking out my one off Ancient Grudge to fit in some Silent Gravestones.

Did you miss the Ancient Grudge in the side?

Also did you have any problems casting your spells with the four Coliseums?

trinkets
03-20-2018, 07:21 AM
That is me!

Congratulations!

What made you forego putrid imps for 4 of careful study? Do you see more merits in study instead of imps?

Pische
03-20-2018, 11:52 AM
A little report of what I remember of sunday:

4 friends come to Rome sleeping at my house, the result is obviously too little sleep and too much pizza, which are both great things for tournaments, so I know I'm gonna do good.
I have a bye, so I sleepwalk for an hour.
In the second round I'm against Rafael Boog, a swiss guy on Canadian Threshold.
There is a big expedition from Switzerland, they all seem like good guys and they did very well in the trials on friday, and Rafael keeps up with expectations, being a good guy and a great player.
In g1 my zombies are faster than his turn 1 3/2 flyer.
I bring in my Firestorms in the place of LEDs and I'll try to kill his Insects before they kill me. Unfortunately the combination of counterspells, pressure on my life points and well played surgicals are enough to win him both g2 and g3.

1-1

In the third round I'm against Sandro Carlucci, on Elves.
The name sounds italian, but at the table I discover that he's another one from the swiss expetition.
I don't remember g1, but I guess I put him at 0 life before he did.
For g2 I will bring 4 firestorms, 1 Dread Return and Iona. I think that Firestorms and Therapies can buy me enough time to be comfortable. This will not happen, since he'll be able to Zenith an Ooze on turn 3 with a Cradle in play. I had a good start, but the Ooze manages to eat all my graveyard goodies and gain him enough life to shut down any plan of racing. He makes some mistakes by thinking that he hase to remove Firestorms from my graveyard, I don't know if he misread it or he thought that I could take them back in some way.
For g3 we have only 5 minutes, so I know I will have to be fast and since I'm on the play I take out the Firestorms and bring in the all in combo package, with the other DR and the petals. I dredge a lot of cards in my first 2 turns, but only 2 narcomoebas, 2 bridges and no ichorids. At least I'm able to thersapy him twice, so it's only a matter of time until I find Iona and start attacking, winning on the fourth extra turn.

2-1

Fourth round, I'm against Frederick Okonji, on BUG control.
He is a local guy who comes from the same hometown that I come from, we didn't know each other personally, but he's very friendly.
I don't remember exactly how g1 went, but he never counters my draw spells so I'm able to put some ichorids in play by turn 3 and therapy out an annoying jitte that he could put on a stryx. I manage to kill him through multiple stryxes.
In g2 basically the same happens, because neither of us see any sideboard cards, so my ichorids do the dirty work of sacrificing themselves in the name of cabal therapy and the zombie horde.

3-1

In the fifth round I'm against Jacopo Chianella, on Death and Taxes
As soon as he starts with Plains -> Vial I know I will win, since I have an explosive hand. He concedes on turn two, knowing the matchup very well, being a former dredge player.
In g2 I bring in 3 Wear/Tear, a DR and an Ashen Rider. He starts with land -> Mother and I think a lot before playing my turn 1. I could careful study into a double looting turn two or play a therapy on my opponent checking for rip. I decide for the latter and I'm rewarded by a RiP in his hand. He proceeds to play Stoneforge Mystic and on my second turn I'll show him that putting cards in the graveyard is more convenient, creatures come off of it, then come back, then zombies come out of nowhere, everything is disgusting.

4-1

I'm against Giulio Iannuzzi, a friend playing Elves.
I go first, starting with a looting and e starts with Nettle Sentinel. This start can lead to huge turn 2 Glimpses, so I have to Therapy him for Glimpse, finding one. He will put a huge amount of creatures and I start my dreadging hell. I make a huge mistake, thinking thast he has a fetch in hand, while he already played it, so he proceeds to reveal me the card he has, a GSZ, that he proceeds to play for 8.
Unfortunately for him I know his sideboard tech, an Elderscale Wurm that I couldn't beat without Ashen Rider. So I side in the all in combo plan with also the Rider, that I normally would keep out against Elves. He plays his Wurm on turn 3 and I reanimate Ashen Rider on the following turn.
In g3 I keep the combo plan despite being on the draw, he plays turn 1 nettle, turn 2 nothing. I think about it a bit and then I think that he must have kept a hand with Natural Orders and multiple Glimpses and he just had to draw a creature. I therapy him for Glimpse and find three of them. I will win easily against his empty hand and board.

5-1

My opponent is Juan Mi Martin Montoliu, a spanish guy on UR Delver.
He asks if we can draw, but we can't, this will basically be our win and in because the winner will be able to draw the next game.
He's on the play but he will mulligan to 5, keeping 3 lands, a Swiftspear and a Brainstorm.
My hand is insane, with triple Wraith, Breakthrough and LED.
In g2 I bring in the combo plan, because I don't know how much I can rely on Firestorms to gain me time, since he plays FoW, Daze and Flusterstorm. He has a turn 1 Swiftspear and I have another formidable hand, with looting and double LED. He will put me to 2 life in his third turn, but then I'll be able to reanimate Iona (which was the 59th card of my deck) which will keep me safe, allowing the zombies to kill him.

Yay! At the table at my side I see Urs, another Swiss guy who I was rooting for, because I met him on friday at the trial and he was playing Dredge as well and he won too.
Also other 2 guys from my local game store are 6-1, so I'm happy, the Swiss are happy, the Romans are happy, I can draw the next game.

Unfortunately Urs will finish 9th, because life sucks.

In the top8 I'm against Nicolas Crépelle, on Czech Pile.
He's on the play and I have to mulligan to 4, keeping Ichorid, Thug, Coliseum, Wraith. I scry a Careful Study to the top.
He plays shaman on turn 1, I loot and put a thug in the graveyard, he tries to eat it with Shaman and I cycle Wraith in response.
The game goes on for a long time, multiple Ichorids allow me to put 4 zombies in play, but my critical mass can only put him to two after he finds more stryxes, Leovold and a removal that kept him alive and left me with no creatures.
In g2 I bring in the Silent Gravestones and the Firestorms. I keep a risky seven, with two Gravestones but not looting effect.
I start with a gravestone, that buys me enough time to find a looting, but he will eventually deal with the second one with a FoW and the first one with a Kolaghan Command. My graveyard now contains 20 cards, but none of them are Ichorids. I will die from the beatings of a Vendillion Clique.




Did you miss the Ancient Grudge in the side?

Also did you have any problems casting your spells with the four Coliseums?

I never played against chalice decks, so I didn't miss the Grudge, but still with triple wear/tear I think taht I'm ok with this setting. Of course grudge would be extremely better against it, but I can't have everything.
In my list the Coliseum takes the place of a spell, so if I have a problem casting a looting with it, I would have had it even if the Coliseum wasn't there. Also, I'm playing 7 blue spells in my deck, so it has an even better role than in other lists.


Congratulations!

What made you forego putrid imps for 4 of careful study? Do you see more merits in study instead of imps?

Thanks!

Putrid Imp is a great card in an average hand. It makes every other card better: looting effects, Therapy, Ichorid. But it's not a card that lets you keep a hand by itself.
Careful study, like Faithless Looting, makes every hand better by itself, by allowing to draw into other looting cards, LED, lands if needed or sideboard cards.
I can't decide which choice is "better", but I prefer my list in an unknown meta, where there may be more combo decks or where I might need to loot for sideboard cards.
However mine is just a personal opinion and the awesome results of Orim, Que or Parcher, just to name a few with PImps talk for themselves.

Orim67
03-20-2018, 04:32 PM
Nice Report! I also played 2 leagues with your list today and both were a 4-1, losing to eldrazi both times. I really like it, which is not surprising, considering that our lists are very similar.

I also cut ancient grudge from my list, it just isn't very important most of the time, even against chalice decks. The biggest problem vs chalice decks are enchantments like blood moon. They will mulligan for it, so the plan is to destroy the leyline first and ancient grudge doesn't do that. The enablers in our deck also have different cmcs, so it should often be possible to start dredging even with a chalice in play. After that, we can use dread return -> ashen rider to get rid of problematic artifacts like ensnaring bridge.

I think that it was probably the right call to play careful study over PImp in that tournament, because there wasn't as much fair blue with drs as online.

Oestrus
03-20-2018, 05:01 PM
That is me!

Werk!

Pische
03-20-2018, 07:25 PM
Nice Report! I also played 2 leagues with your list today and both were a 4-1, losing to eldrazi both times. I really like it, which is not surprising, considering that our lists are very similar.

I also cut ancient grudge from my list, it just isn't very important most of the time, even against chalice decks. The biggest problem vs chalice decks are enchantments like blood moon. They will mulligan for it, so the plan is to destroy the leyline first and ancient grudge doesn't do that. The enablers in our deck also have different cmcs, so it should often be possible to start dredging even with a chalice in play. After that, we can use dread return -> ashen rider to get rid of problematic artifacts like ensnaring bridge.

I think that it was probably the right call to play careful study over PImp in that tournament, because there wasn't as much fair blue with drs as online.

Thank you Orim! I have to say that while a lot of good work has been done in the past by the above mentioned great players, the merit of introducing the Street Wraiths is yours and it's what gives our lists the ability to be so explosive and still run 4 functioning ichorids.

Vissah
03-21-2018, 08:03 AM
Thanks for the write up and the answer to my question.

Orim67
03-22-2018, 06:03 PM
Well, to be fair, it all started with this awesome report: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32023-PImpin-on-the-Street-5th-Place-10-1-Legacy-Challenge
At first, I just wanted to grind to eventually build ANT, but then I realized that it is much easier to win with dredge :)

tw0as
03-23-2018, 08:34 PM
After a long 4 years (maybe 5) break of MtG, im coming back playing Legacy with my good old Dredge deck. Ive been reading the 12 pages of this thread and looking for reviews, reports etc ... After all that i found myself changing my outdated 75 to this :

4 Mana Confluence
2 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Faithless Looting
2 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
3 Putrid Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug

2 Lotus Petal
3 Silent Gravestone
3 Firestorm
2 Wear/Tear
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Dread Return
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Ashen Rider


Credits for this 75 are going to everyone here, every imput on the deck made me think and rethink choices and numbers. I ended up with 12 + 4 mana enablers , 9 + 3 looting effects , and a solid number of black creatures to keep those ichorids out of my gy and straight in the front line. About SB i found Petals and Gravestones being MVPs on my testing: Petals gives and extra boost on speed on certain games we need, and the Gravestones protects us from 90% of the hate in current meta (at least my current meta lol)
What keeps me testing and pondering with the deck is the correct number of Studies/Breaks in the maindeck, the 4th Firestorm in the sideboard, the Contagion option and the Memory's Journey option. It's ok to ask for even more data on this thoughts ?
Thank you very much, everyone here. I hope to be putting up some winning reports here soon :)

Smea.gol.lum
03-24-2018, 08:31 AM
I like your list with one exception: I wouldn't run less than 3 cards that get rid of Leyline of the Void in the sideboard. I would replace Ancient Grudge with another Wear/Tear.

I'm also trying to figure out the best maindeck composition at the moment. In my experience inconsistency has been the biggest issue of dredge. That's why I run 13 lands and 4 Thugs. As already mentioned in this thread, Breakthrough is bad in multiples so 3 seems to be the right number. I haven't played Dredge for a long time and tested Street Wraith yet, but 4 seems to be the way to go if you look at the current meta and tournament results.

So for me the questions are: 3 or 4 Cephalid Coliseum (I wouldn't ever go below 3, I think it's too good to be trimmed down to 2)?
0-4 Putrid Imps?
0-4 Careful Studies?

Here's what I will test with (looks very similar to yours):

4 Mana Confluence
2 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Faithless Looting
3 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
1 Putrid Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug

2 Lotus Petal
3 Silent Gravestone
3 Firestorm
3 Serenity
2 Dread Return
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Ashen Rider

Another question:
If you are playing against Grixis Delver and your opponent starts game 2 with turn 1 Deathrite Shaman, would you try to DDD under certain circumstances even if you don't have a Street Wraith in your hand to trick your opponent into thinking you have one?

Que
03-24-2018, 02:15 PM
I like your list with one exception: I wouldn't run less than 3 cards that get rid of Leyline of the Void in the sideboard. I would replace Ancient Grudge with another Wear/Tear.

I'm also trying to figure out the best maindeck composition at the moment. In my experience inconsistency has been the biggest issue of dredge. That's why I run 13 lands and 4 Thugs. As already mentioned in this thread, Breakthrough is bad in multiples so 3 seems to be the right number. I haven't played Dredge for a long time and tested Street Wraith yet, but 4 seems to be the way to go if you look at the current meta and tournament results.

So for me the questions are: 3 or 4 Cephalid Coliseum (I wouldn't ever go below 3, I think it's too good to be trimmed down to 2)?
0-4 Putrid Imps?
0-4 Careful Studies?

Here's what I will test with (looks very similar to yours):

4 Mana Confluence
2 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Faithless Looting
3 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
1 Putrid Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug

2 Lotus Petal
3 Silent Gravestone
3 Firestorm
3 Serenity
2 Dread Return
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Ashen Rider

Another question:
If you are playing against Grixis Delver and your opponent starts game 2 with turn 1 Deathrite Shaman, would you try to DDD under certain circumstances even if you don't have a Street Wraith in your hand to trick your opponent into thinking you have one?

I'm still apprehensive about cutting down on careful study in general, but given the current meta that just seems probably right. I would want at least a couple of PImps to help play around cards like Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm and to a lesser extent Pyroblast/REB which normally eat up your Careful Study and Breakthrough.

Cephalid Coliseum is awesome as it helps you play around counter magic, but makes it difficult to cast some of your crucial spells i.e. Faithless Looting, Cabal Therapy, PImp, and some side board cards so normally 3 is ideal favoring more gold lands. However, if the current trend is to cut down to 0-1 Careful Study I would rather run 4 to give you additional gas.

planeswalkerzen
04-01-2018, 03:37 AM
Hey guys!

I am looking to pick the deck up, and had some questions that it would be good to get people's thoughts on!

-It seems like the maindeck is all but agreed on, except the Putrid Imp vs Careful Study discussion. What do people think about just cutting Breakthrough instead, and playing four each of Imp and Careful Study? While I do understand that Breakthrough leads to more explosive draws, having 12 discard outlets makes the deck more consistent and able to fight through counterspells (even if first gets countered, you can follow up with another). It seems like Breakthrough is one of the first cards to be cut in post board games anyway, and it feels like having 12 one mana discard outlets will help you be more consistent in pre-board games - which matters a lot.

-In the sideboard, what are people's thoughts on Serenity vs Wear//Tear? I feel like Serenity is better, especially against Red Prison where they have Leyline of the Void and lots of artifacts. In what situations is Wear//Tear better?

-When do you bring in Lotus Petal?

-And finally, what are generally the cards that can be sideboarded out?

Thanks!

notkevin
04-01-2018, 03:56 AM
Hey guys!

I am looking to pick the deck up, and had some questions that it would be good to get people's thoughts on!
Welcome to the club :) Hope you have a blast dredging them out! I'll try to answer your questions from my pov; hopefully others can offer their perspectives as well :)



-It seems like the maindeck is all but agreed on, except the Putrid Imp vs Careful Study discussion. What do people think about just cutting Breakthrough instead, and playing four each of Imp and Careful Study? While I do understand that Breakthrough leads to more explosive draws, having 12 discard outlets makes the deck more consistent and able to fight through counterspells (even if first gets countered, you can follow up with another). It seems like Breakthrough is one of the first cards to be cut in post board games anyway, and it feels like having 12 one mana discard outlets will help you be more consistent in pre-board games - which matters a lot.
The biggest thing about BT for me is that in some matchups you really need that explosivity; same thing goes with LED - that is, you can eschew these powerhouses for consistency, but it means that the deck has a cap to its power. Against some decks, we absolutely need that power to reliably win (decks that come to mind include storm, reanimator, elves [tho not as much]). It also (along with LED and Pimp) allows us to discard our whole hand, which can be really helpful if we end up drawing Ichorids/Bridges/Dread Returns/Ichorid fuel. But cutting down on Breakthrough is certainly a viable approach :)



-In the sideboard, what are people's thoughts on Serenity vs Wear//Tear? I feel like Serenity is better, especially against Red Prison where they have Leyline of the Void and lots of artifacts. In what situations is Wear//Tear better?
I've also been feeling like Serenity is generally better - I actually just picked up a couple more so I can try out how it feels :P It's particularly strong against multiple leyline openers out of those decks, which I've been wanting. It's much slower, though (without petals, it comes down t2, and only kills your problems t3; they have a chance to blow it up before it gets back to you, or put you in a huge hole by then), and it's been nice to open with t1 tear their leyline (I've done that about 5 times in the past few weeks, and I think I won 3 of those games :P).



-When do you bring in Lotus Petal?
The obvious answer is when you want to race, but something that I'm only starting to better appreciate is also balancing speed with consistency; against some decks on the play, I've considered leaving them out because I don't need the "speed boost" so to speak, and I'd rather just make sure my engine's going in time. They're also not bad as really bad gemstone mines (eg, against wasteland decks), but I think most wasteland decks don't really tempo you out, so I don't think I'd bring any in.



-And finally, what are generally the cards that can be sideboarded out?

Thanks!
The most common cards I take out are 1 thug (almost always, unless I'm really trying to ensure t1 dredge consistency - I run 12 dredgers main), 1 Ichorid (against faster decks), 1 Dread Return in the main (against decks where DR is bad, like control), and some number of PImp/Careful/Wraith; Breakthrough and/or LED (in some number) comes out against grindier countermagic as well.

Hope this helps :)

planeswalkerzen
04-02-2018, 12:35 AM
Welcome to the club :) Hope you have a blast dredging them out! I'll try to answer your questions from my pov; hopefully others can offer their perspectives as well :)


The biggest thing about BT for me is that in some matchups you really need that explosivity; same thing goes with LED - that is, you can eschew these powerhouses for consistency, but it means that the deck has a cap to its power. Against some decks, we absolutely need that power to reliably win (decks that come to mind include storm, reanimator, elves [tho not as much]). It also (along with LED and Pimp) allows us to discard our whole hand, which can be really helpful if we end up drawing Ichorids/Bridges/Dread Returns/Ichorid fuel. But cutting down on Breakthrough is certainly a viable approach :)


I've also been feeling like Serenity is generally better - I actually just picked up a couple more so I can try out how it feels :P It's particularly strong against multiple leyline openers out of those decks, which I've been wanting. It's much slower, though (without petals, it comes down t2, and only kills your problems t3; they have a chance to blow it up before it gets back to you, or put you in a huge hole by then), and it's been nice to open with t1 tear their leyline (I've done that about 5 times in the past few weeks, and I think I won 3 of those games :P).


The obvious answer is when you want to race, but something that I'm only starting to better appreciate is also balancing speed with consistency; against some decks on the play, I've considered leaving them out because I don't need the "speed boost" so to speak, and I'd rather just make sure my engine's going in time. They're also not bad as really bad gemstone mines (eg, against wasteland decks), but I think most wasteland decks don't really tempo you out, so I don't think I'd bring any in.


The most common cards I take out are 1 thug (almost always, unless I'm really trying to ensure t1 dredge consistency - I run 12 dredgers main), 1 Ichorid (against faster decks), 1 Dread Return in the main (against decks where DR is bad, like control), and some number of PImp/Careful/Wraith; Breakthrough and/or LED (in some number) comes out against grindier countermagic as well.

Hope this helps :)

Thanks for answering the questions!

One other major question I have is - what is the Dread Return package for? It feels like it takes a lot of SB slots but also cards to cut for it, and I'm not sure when I ever really want it.

Also, do you generally bring in the Lotus Petals when you bring in colored spells?

slave
04-03-2018, 05:47 AM
One other major question I have is - what is the Dread Return package for? It feels like it takes a lot of SB slots but also cards to cut for it, and I'm not sure when I ever really want it.
Whether DR works for you or not comes down to what matchups you regularly expect to face, and what hate is prevalent for you.
For example;
I always run 2xDR & 1xIona VS Elves & Burn. Locking an opponent out is nice. :tongue:
Ashen Rider is useful against lock-decks to remove trouble perms, and of course Show'n'Tell > Emmy.

I generally use one DR in the main, without any specified target outside GGT, simply as DR can be an efficient way of creating brain eaters.

Also, do you generally bring in the Lotus Petals when you bring in colored spells?
For me it depends on what your side looks like, and how many lands you're running.
I generally bring in LP when I'm racing, or running into heavy LD & Taxing, but there may be some here who bring it in when using Abrupt Decay.

notkevin
04-03-2018, 05:10 PM
Whether DR works for you or not comes down to what matchups you regularly expect to face, and what hate is prevalent for you.
For example;
I always run 2xDR & 1xIona VS Elves & Burn. Locking an opponent out is nice. :tongue:
Ashen Rider is useful against lock-decks to remove trouble perms, and of course Show'n'Tell > Emmy.

I generally use one DR in the main, without any specified target outside GGT, simply as DR can be an efficient way of creating brain eaters.

For me it depends on what your side looks like, and how many lands you're running.
I generally bring in LP when I'm racing, or running into heavy LD & Taxing, but there may be some here who bring it in when using Abrupt Decay.

Exact same thoughts for me, as well :) 1 DR main with no targets, 1 more DR + Iona and Rider in the sideboard for other decks, and only siding in LP for racing and very heavy resource denial, but not running Decay.

As a tangent, I was trying to figure out how to best maximize wins against Reanimator (specifically BR, but UB is perhaps also worth thinking about). I feel like I'm overboarding by siding in Petals, Gravestones, and a DR package (especially because DR and Gravestone are a nonbo), but it feels like just doing one half is "too slow" against them. I'm also trying to figure out what to side out - if Gravestone is out, we have to win through Ichorid + Narco + zombie beats, but I trim on Ichorids since it's a fast matchup normally. I tried something like this; what do people think? (I'm running a list very similar to Orim67's in the last Legacy Challenge (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18651&d=316298&f=LE), but -1 Coliseum -1 Careful for +1 DR +1 Breakthrough to go faster against other combo decks in the local meta)
+2 Petal, +3 Gravestone, +DR, +Iona, +Rider
-3 PImp, -2 Ichorid, -1 Thug, -2 Wraith

Maybe I should do -1 Ichorid -3 Wraith instead?

Orim67
04-03-2018, 05:34 PM
I didn't build my list to beat B/R Reaninator. I don't think that it is worth it to dedicate slots vs them. If you really want to beat them, you can consider cutting gravestones for faerie macabre or leylines. You already changed your deck to be faster vs combo, so I guess that you don't have too many snapcasters in your meta. Gravestone is very medium vs reanimator, they have exhume, chancellor trigger and discard to stop it.
Anyways, this is what I tried when I played vs B/R:
I board in dread return on the play and gravestones on the draw. I cut 1 thug, 2 PImps, 1 Ichorid, 1 land. 3 PImps on the play. Petals also come in, of course.

Ronald Deuce
04-03-2018, 06:48 PM
One other major question I have is - what is the Dread Return package for? It feels like it takes a lot of SB slots but also cards to cut for it, and I'm not sure when I ever really want it.

I'm gonna be bold and say that Dredge is one of those decks that really doesn't need all 15 sideboard slots. We can't ever afford to bring in more than a few cards if we expect to keep firing, and there aren't perfect answers to the hate that will just end us if it shows its face. If there were a single existential threat we needed to restructure our deck to fight (and no other threats that required different answers), I wouldn't think this way, but there isn't.

The Dread Return package does three things:

—It gives us autowins in a number of matchups. A lot of decks can't beat a Griselbrand, Iona, Archon, Elesh Norn, or a big guy with an ETB (probably Ashen Rider).
—We need a speed boost against other combo decks. We'll never be as consistent as some of the format's real dark horses (like Storm), but we can up our speed significantly with a couple of Dread Returns and a Zealot.
—It's pretty much uncounterable Maximum Overdrive for zombie production.

notkevin
04-03-2018, 07:13 PM
I didn't build my list to beat B/R Reaninator. I don't think that it is worth it to dedicate slots vs them. If you really want to beat them, you can consider cutting gravestones for faerie macabre or leylines. You already changed your deck to be faster vs combo, so I guess that you don't have too many snapcasters in your meta. Gravestone is very medium vs reanimator, they have exhume, chancellor trigger and discard to stop it.
Anyways, this is what I tried when I played vs B/R:
I board in dread return on the play and gravestones on the draw. I cut 1 thug, 2 PImps, 1 Ichorid, 1 land. 3 PImps on the play. Petals also come in, of course.

Thanks for the insight, and answering the real question hidden in my poorly-phrased one :) Trying to get some last-minute prep for the GP (I'll probably shift even closer to your list - probably trim the Careful for the Dread Return and put Iona in the board), and want to solidify a plan against some matchups.

Speaking of which, anyone else going to Seattle? Que and I'll be there :)

jimytuning
04-06-2018, 06:07 AM
Pische, with your list as sideboard against the main pairings (5color, jund, d&t, s&t, grixis....??

Pische
04-08-2018, 08:02 AM
Pische, with your list as sideboard against the main pairings (5color, jund, d&t, s&t, grixis....??

Against DRS decks I board in 4 Firestorm, taking out the Breakthroughs and a Street Wraith (or a LED if they didn't see the Wraith in g1).
Against 4c I also put in the Silent Gravestones, taking out some more LEDs or Wraiths.
Against d&t I bring in petals, dread returns and ashen rider. Sometimes I think about switching to Wear / Tears when on the draw, but I had worse results with that settings, since a good fair start by them can beat a slow hand that we keep with anti hate.
Against the combos I bring in the whole combo package, with petals, DRs and Iona (also Ashen against all the combos but storm), taking out 2 Ichorids, a land a Wraith and one or two thugs.

Cyrus
04-08-2018, 03:33 PM
Hey, I saw some comments here mentioning that some of our Dredge bois were attending GP Seattle, how did y'all do?

Que
04-10-2018, 12:40 AM
Hey, I saw some comments here mentioning that some of our Dredge bois were attending GP Seattle, how did y'all do?

Hi All, got back yesterday. Was just relaxin. I'll have another post with highlights or notes I thought were interesting in my matchups. I ended 10-5 good for 1 pro point; 140th overall. Wish my results could have been better, but I'm glad I was able to power through to day two without any byes and come out with a winning record at the end of it. It was a great experience and I had a great trip overall getting to see Seattle with my good friends. Here were my matchups:

Round 1: Gerard Ahquin on Sneak & Show, W 2-1
1-0
Round 2: William Thomas on Czech Pile, W 2-1
2-0
Round 3: Benjamin Brueseke on Grixis Delver, W 2-0
3-0
Round 4: Ryder Nishioka on Mono Red Prison, L 0-2
3-1
Round 5: James Miller on Death and Taxes, W 2-0
4-1
Round 6: Lu Chao on Noble Bant Blade, W 2-0
5-1
Round 7: Tyler Mollenkopf on Elves, L 1-2
5-2
Round 8: Matthew Mercier on Elves, W 2-1
6-2
Round 9: Brenden Hickey on Sneak & Show, W 2-1
7-2
Round 10: Zan Zyed on Grixis Delver/Bomat, L 0-2
7-3
Round 11: Cody Nicely on Grixis Delver, L 0-2
7-4
Round 12: Isaiah Manalo on Tin Fins, W 2-1
8-4
Round 13: Ty Sloo on Lands, W 2-1
9-4
Round 14: Daniel Wong on Sneak & Show, W 2-0
10-4
Round 15: Robert Shilander on Omniscience, L 1-2
10-5

Vissah
04-10-2018, 09:10 AM
Hi All, got back yesterday. Was just relaxin. I'll have another post with highlights or notes I thought were interesting in my matchups. I ended 10-5 good for 1 pro point; 140th overall. Wish my results could have been better, but I'm glad I was able to power through to day two without any byes and come out with a winning record at the end of it. It was a great experience and I had a great trip overall getting to see Seattle with my good friends. Here were my matchups:

Round 1: Gerard Ahquin on Sneak & Show, W 2-1
1-0
Round 2: William Thomas on Czech Pile, W 2-1
2-0
Round 3: Benjamin Brueseke on Grixis Delver, W 2-0
3-0
Round 4: Ryder Nishioka on Mono Red Prison, L 0-2
3-1
Round 5: James Miller on Death and Taxes, W 2-0
4-1
Round 6: Lu Chao on Noble Bant Blade, W 2-0
5-1
Round 7: Tyler Mollenkopf on Elves, L 1-2
5-2
Round 8: Matthew Mercier on Elves, W 2-1
6-2
Round 9: Brenden Hickey on Sneak & Show, W 2-1
7-2
Round 10: Zan Zyed on Grixis Delver/Bomat, L 0-2
7-3
Round 11: Cody Nicely on Grixis Delver, L 0-2
7-4
Round 12: Isaiah Manalo on Tin Fins, W 2-1
8-4
Round 13: Ty Sloo on Lands, W 2-1
9-4
Round 14: Daniel Wong on Sneak & Show, W 2-0
10-4
Round 15: Robert Shilander on Omniscience, L 1-2
10-5

Nice one! Congrats on getting a pro point.
Would love to read more and of course a decklist would be very nice 😃

zpikduM
04-10-2018, 11:41 AM
I flew out from Australia to also jam at GP Seattle - was my first real jam with dredge since buying in.

R1: Bye
R2: Bye
R3: 1-2 Red MUD (Daretti, 3sphere, Chalice)
R4: 2-1 Elves
R5: 2-1 Miracles
R6: 0-2 Red Prison
R7: 0-2 Mirror (opp had 3/1 amalgam/ichorid split vs my 0/4, and had leylines postboard)
R8: 0-2 Aluren (wasn't really playing properly at this point)

I feel pretty happy with my performance despite the result because I feel like I won the matchups I thought I could win and lost the matchups that felt horrendous (minus the Aluren game, where my heart wasnt really in it.)

Deck was a blast to play and I'm keen to sink my teeth into the archetype more. No cards felt like underperformers and I'm extremely happy with the list.

Decklist:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
3 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence

Sideboard:
1 Ashen Rider
1 Breakthrough
2 Dread Return
3 Firestorm
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Lotus Petal
2 Serenity
3 Silent Gravestone

(excuse the formatting, just copied it off the cfb email.)

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Que
04-15-2018, 01:22 AM
Hi All, got back yesterday. Was just relaxin. I'll have another post with highlights or notes I thought were interesting in my matchups. I ended 10-5 good for 1 pro point; 140th overall. Wish my results could have been better, but I'm glad I was able to power through to day two without any byes and come out with a winning record at the end of it. It was a great experience and I had a great trip overall getting to see Seattle with my good friends. Here were my matchups:

Round 1: Gerard Ahquin on Sneak & Show, W 2-1
1-0
Round 2: William Thomas on Czech Pile, W 2-1
2-0
Round 3: Benjamin Brueseke on Grixis Delver, W 2-0
3-0
Round 4: Ryder Nishioka on Mono Red Prison, L 0-2
3-1
Round 5: James Miller on Death and Taxes, W 2-0
4-1
Round 6: Lu Chao on Noble Bant Blade, W 2-0
5-1
Round 7: Tyler Mollenkopf on Elves, L 1-2
5-2
Round 8: Matthew Mercier on Elves, W 2-1
6-2
Round 9: Brenden Hickey on Sneak & Show, W 2-1
7-2
Round 10: Zan Zyed on Grixis Delver/Bomat, L 0-2
7-3
Round 11: Cody Nicely on Grixis Delver, L 0-2
7-4
Round 12: Isaiah Manalo on Tin Fins, W 2-1
8-4
Round 13: Ty Sloo on Lands, W 2-1
9-4
Round 14: Daniel Wong on Sneak & Show, W 2-0
10-4
Round 15: Robert Shilander on Omniscience, L 1-2
10-5


Nice one! Congrats on getting a pro point.
Would love to read more and of course a decklist would be very nice 😃

I actually decided to take Orim's list to the GP. I just figured he had done extensive testing on mtgo and that was more testing than I had done period. I felt comfortable piloting any dredge list so I didn't mind at all. I also thought that the GP would house a good number of the decks found on the mtgo meta which made my decision all the more easier. The list is here: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=18911&d=318570&f=LE The only difference is the sideboard. I had no serenity and simply had 3 Wear/Tear. Everything else was the same.

Round 1 Nothing extra special of note. I remember dread returning Ashen Rider to exile one of his lands, Flashing back Cabal Therapy naming Show and Tell and hitting while exiling yet another land and any hope of his winning. If you have the chance to cut them off resources then I would advise to do so. Usually you're replacing the power you lost with zombies.

Round 4 I have a typical dredge hand, however, I'm only able to hit one Cabal Therapy. This would be the first time I see anything in his hand. My initial thought process was to put as much power on the board with the Therapy so I naturally named Fiery Confluence to protect the zombies I had created. However, I completely forgot to consider the only card that could actually beat me in that type of scenario. To my horror I see Ensnaring Bridge hanging out in our opponents hand after I decide to name. He's able to drop it into play on his next turn. I spend the following turns smacking him around with Narcos and Putrid Imp getting him down to 3 before he's able to play out every single card he draws. I continue to play the game for the extra information, then quickly move to game 2.
Game 2 was much worse as he drops early lock pieces and I'm never really in it. Quite unfortunate.

Round 5. I was able to put out enough power on the board via zombies as I stripped my opponent's hand to no cards. On the board my opponent has Vial set to 2, Recruiter of the Guard, and Flickerwisp. I like my position as I had just dumped at least a couple of Ichorids into my yard that will comeback the following turn. My opponent has other plans as he top decks another flicker wisp. He plays it targeting his recruiter which comes back EOT tapped which finds him Containment Priest which he drops in response to my Ichorid triggers with his Vial. Lucky for me I did have some zombies which I was able to shove before the top deck to force chump blocks. I fade a draw the next turn and force additional blocks from the Priest this time which turns on my Ichorids and allows me to cleanup. It was just a tense moment overall.

Round 7 Game 3 I mull to 3 as all other opening hands are complete dog crap. I had a small window where I floated 3 R mana, 3 U mana in the face of a sick DRS off a couple of LEDs. I flashback Faithless looting I had cast earlier looking for a dredger as I also had a Cephalid Coliseum at the ready to Dredge 3 additional times if I could find at least one off the Looting. But I don't and die.

Round 8 Game 3 my opponent is on the play and makes a turn 1 DRS. I make a turn 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria naming Green. \m/

Round 9 Game 3 I'm able to cheat in Ashen Rider off my opponent's Show and Tell which got to target his Omniscience. I proceed to win the game from there.

Round 10 My opponent just does what good old grixis is built for. Disruption backed up with solid threats. I lose game 1 which sucks. Game 2 my opponents hand was Delver, Daze, FOW, FOW, Wasteland, Wasteland, Surgical Extraction... So I just took my licks and went to my next round. I also was saddened that I did not get to see bomat courier lol.

Round 11 Don't remember much. Again disruption and threats pretty stock stuff. Game 2 my opponent got down two quick TNNs and clocked me for 6 over a few turns to close me out. At this point I had almost had it with Grixis lol.

Round 12 My opponent Game 2 reanimated my own Putrid Imp to bin his Griselbrand. He reanimated it and combo'd me out. xD

Round 13 Game 1 I dredge into 3 Ichorids. I clock him for 9 then am left with residual zombies. He plays Tabernacle. I keep one zombie around and stack triggers returning my 3 Ichorids again and bashing him for 11 that turn killing him.
Game 2. My pop plays Misty Rainforest and passes back to me. I have the turn 1 nuts and contemplate going for it considering he might just blow me out with a Crop Rotation. I think about it for a sec, then consider my position in the tournament and decided to go for it and walk right into a Crop Rotation lol. ;p
Game 3 I'm able to Dread Return into Iona on Green with a few zombies. He doesn't find tabernacle or Glacial Chasm immediately and the game gets wrapped up quickly after that.

Round 14 My opp Show and Tells Emrakul into play. I have a few zombies and a Narcomoeba with 3 Bridges and some number of Ichorids. My life total is above 15. He swings triggers annihilator. I sac zombies and my Narco which triggers my bridges leaving enough power on the board along with my Ichorids to deal lethal on my turn; He did take damage earlier from his on Ancient Tomb as well.

Round 15 Game 1 my opp Releases the ants on my face. Game 2 I cheat in Ashen Rider off his own Show and Tell and get to exile his Omniscience and send it to game 3. Game 3 he plays a turn 1 Gravediggers cage. I play turn 1 PIMP and pass back. He doesn't have a 2nd land and passes back. I make a Narcomoeba and bash. He plays Lotus Petal on his following turn and passes back. I bring some more mediocre beats, but he draws another land and casts Show and tell into G. Brand. The game ends rather quickly from there.

Other Notes
Gravestones were nice. You get the feeling sometimes they wreck your opponents plans mainly because they keep hands strictly relying on it for not only hate, but for mana. It seemed like the correct choice considering I didn't see a single Cage (outside of the 1 in the 15th round), RIP, etc. and instead saw DRS and Surgical Extraction exclusively.

I also made it a point to not board in more than 5 cards at a time and I liked adhering to this rule during the event. I was growing tired of diluting my gameplay by trying to fight through the hate instead of just going with the old adage "when in doubt, combo them out!" :P

Vissah
04-15-2018, 02:00 AM
Thanks for the writeup Que, always like reading how fellow Dredgers are doing.

Unlif3
04-15-2018, 12:51 PM
Hello fellow necromancers,
Long time lurker, I've been quite successful with the deck on my last tournaments, found that'd be a decent idea to post a fast report of my two last tournaments.
I'm on MD 4 Coliseums + 7 rainbow-lands + 2 Lotus Petal, 3/2 Ichorid/Amalgam split, 1 Wraith, 1 Pimp, no DR, full 4 of CS/BT - heavily tilted towards combo.
SB is 2 DR + Ashen + Iona, 4 Claim + 1 Grudge, 2 Firestorm, 2 Gravestone, 2 Wraith.

French Legacy Cup side-event (#1/29)
R1 2-0 vs. Death & Taxes
R2 0-2 vs. Elves
R3 2-0 vs. ANT
R4 2-1 vs. Grixis Delver
R5 ID
QF 2-0 vs. BtB Miracles
SF 2-1 vs. Painter
F 2-1 vs. Grixis Delver
Not much to say there. The French Legacy Cup main event being an Invitational and taking place at the same time, this meant that people playing the side-event failed to qualify - which, in turn, says a bit about their level as Legacy players - no offense towards them, but I've seen lots, lots of mistakes.
Lost R2 to Elves mostly due to my deck derping, the rest was a smooth sail.

Eternal Week-End Trial, Paris (#1/56)
R1 2-0 vs. ANT
R2 2-1 vs. Lands
R3 2-1 vs. BUG Leovold
R4 1-2 vs. Deathblade
R5 2-0 vs. BUG Delver
QF 2-0 vs. Burn
SF 2-1 vs. Deathblade
F 2-0 vs. Czech Pile
Won R2 vs. Lands in the additional turns, thanks to a well-timed Ashen Rider exiling Dark Depths and Tabernacle. Got caught in G1 of R4 against Deathblade, I may have misplayed there, cast Breakthrough for X=1 instead of X=0 after having my T1 Looting Dazed and got Dazed a second time, which, followed by a double-TNN, wrecked me. Won the QF against Burn thanks to Iona on red flooding my opponent's Ensnaring Bridge.

The list is satisfying but could do with some additional work for the upcoming Eternal Week-End.
I lost too many G1s to DRS to my liking, I'm considering going towards more resiliency against Deathrite : I'm thinking about -1 Coliseum +1 Rainbow, -1/2 Study/Breakthrough +1/2 Street Wraith. Despite being a huge fan of Coliseum, 4 proved to be a bit too much, and I wish I had an additional rainbow-land in lieu of the 4th Coliseum. Been extremely satisfied with 11 lands + 2 petals, allows either more explosivity or good resiliency against Daze decks.
In the sideboard, I found myself only boarding Claims in once in 15 rounds, i.e. against Painter. I'm considering playing Wear//Tear in lieu of them, for the flexibility against Chalice decks. If I'm to add 1/2 SW to the MD, I'll remove those from the side, freeing some space, which would allow me to run an additional rainbow-land in the SB, and maybe an additional Firestorm/Gravestone.
I've been finding Gravestones excellent, but I think I mistakenly boarded them in against Delver decks, they should probably stay in the sideboard.
Due to permanent grave-hate being less prevalent these days, at the expense of Surgicals which are way less back-breaking, I'm also considering going -1 Claim (or W//T) +1 Firestorm, DRS seems to be the thing to deal with right at the moment.
Any thoughts about the aforementioned changes ? :)

Vissah
04-15-2018, 07:24 PM
Hello fellow necromancers,
Long time lurker, I've been quite successful with the deck on my last tournaments, found that'd be a decent idea to post a fast report of my two last tournaments.
I'm on MD 4 Coliseums + 7 rainbow-lands + 2 Lotus Petal, 3/2 Ichorid/Amalgam split, 1 Wraith, 1 Pimp, no DR, full 4 of CS/BT - heavily tilted towards combo.
SB is 2 DR + Ashen + Iona, 4 Claim + 1 Grudge, 2 Firestorm, 2 Gravestone, 2 Wraith.

French Legacy Cup side-event (#1/29)
R1 2-0 vs. Death & Taxes
R2 0-2 vs. Elves
R3 2-0 vs. ANT
R4 2-1 vs. Grixis Delver
R5 ID
QF 2-0 vs. BtB Miracles
SF 2-1 vs. Painter
F 2-1 vs. Grixis Delver
Not much to say there. The French Legacy Cup main event being an Invitational and taking place at the same time, this meant that people playing the side-event failed to qualify - which, in turn, says a bit about their level as Legacy players - no offense towards them, but I've seen lots, lots of mistakes.
Lost R2 to Elves mostly due to my deck derping, the rest was a smooth sail.

Eternal Week-End Trial, Paris (#1/56)
R1 2-0 vs. ANT
R2 2-1 vs. Lands
R3 2-1 vs. BUG Leovold
R4 1-2 vs. Deathblade
R5 2-0 vs. BUG Delver
QF 2-0 vs. Burn
SF 2-1 vs. Deathblade
F 2-0 vs. Czech Pile
Won R2 vs. Lands in the additional turns, thanks to a well-timed Ashen Rider exiling Dark Depths and Tabernacle. Got caught in G1 of R4 against Deathblade, I may have misplayed there, cast Breakthrough for X=1 instead of X=0 after having my T1 Looting Dazed and got Dazed a second time, which, followed by a double-TNN, wrecked me. Won the QF against Burn thanks to Iona on red flooding my opponent's Ensnaring Bridge.

The list is satisfying but could do with some additional work for the upcoming Eternal Week-End.
I lost too many G1s to DRS to my liking, I'm considering going towards more resiliency against Deathrite : I'm thinking about -1 Coliseum +1 Rainbow, -1/2 Study/Breakthrough +1/2 Street Wraith. Despite being a huge fan of Coliseum, 4 proved to be a bit too much, and I wish I had an additional rainbow-land in lieu of the 4th Coliseum. Been extremely satisfied with 11 lands + 2 petals, allows either more explosivity or good resiliency against Daze decks.
In the sideboard, I found myself only boarding Claims in once in 15 rounds, i.e. against Painter. I'm considering playing Wear//Tear in lieu of them, for the flexibility against Chalice decks. If I'm to add 1/2 SW to the MD, I'll remove those from the side, freeing some space, which would allow me to run an additional rainbow-land in the SB, and maybe an additional Firestorm/Gravestone.
I've been finding Gravestones excellent, but I think I mistakenly boarded them in against Delver decks, they should probably stay in the sideboard.
Due to permanent grave-hate being less prevalent these days, at the expense of Surgicals which are way less back-breaking, I'm also considering going -1 Claim (or W//T) +1 Firestorm, DRS seems to be the thing to deal with right at the moment.
Any thoughts about the aforementioned changes ? :)

This is the sideboard I play and it is working out pretty good so far against Delver decks.

2 Lotus Petal
4 Firestorm
2 Silent Gravestone
3 Wear // Tear
2 Dread Return
1 Ashen Rider
1 Iona

When I`m on the draw I switch out 4 Breakthrough for 4 Firestorm and when I`m on the play I take out 4 PImp and side 4 Breakthrought back in. It seems to work out fine for now. I`m thinking of also siding in my 2 Gravestones against Delver but I`m not really sure if that is the best thing to do against Delver.

Parcher
04-15-2018, 09:34 PM
Delver always brings in Grudge now, if that helps your decision.

Vissah
04-16-2018, 12:49 AM
Delver always brings in Grudge now, if that helps your decision.

Well that makes the decision a lot easier indeed :D

Thanks.

I might take the Gravestones out again for an extra Lotus Petal and an Ancient Grudge.

Cyrus
04-16-2018, 11:23 AM
Well that makes the decision a lot easier indeed :D

Thanks.

I might take the Gravestones out again for an extra Lotus Petal and an Ancient Grudge.

Gravestones aren't there for delver, I believe a more standard sb plan is to just swap 3 PImps for 3 Firestorm or something in that matchup. Gravestones help with surgical snap surgical in Miracles and Czech Pile and, in some cases, slowing reanimator down and stopping loam recursion. They aren't really supposed to be sided in vs all decks that run surgical.

Vissah
04-17-2018, 02:12 AM
The last two/three weeks I see more people jamming Gravedigger`s Cage into their sideboard.

What is a good way to fight that card?

Shall I just keep going with Wear // Tear or is it better to switch them out for something like Nature`s Claim?
I play 12 lands if that makes a difference.

Orim67
04-17-2018, 04:05 PM
This is pretty hard to answer, because we don't know, which decks they are playing and how many cages they board in. If they are playing blue or also have a scary combo, boarding in answers for cage can backfire. But if it is really necessary to board in answers, claim is obviously better. I would still not expect to do well against a blue/combo deck with sth like 4 cages in the sb. It would be a better strategy to just choose another deck if that is the case.