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Admiral_Arzar
12-19-2017, 08:15 PM
Intro/Explanation

Steel Stompy was a deck built by a friend (Metalwalker) a long time ago. This one is a bit of a callback in some ways, although it owes a lot to Vintage in cards and concept. Anyways, I'd been pondering whether it was possible to port the Vintage Workshop deck to Legacy for quite a while. The manabase is far worse as everyone knows, but we get to play all the non-mana toys without being burdened by the restricted list, which counts for something. I had a discussion with a buddy who doesn't post on here, where I played the part of the skeptic due to the aforementioned issues with the manabase. He thought the issue had merit but I kind of shelved it for a while due to not believing in the heart of the cards. Recently, I came around to trying it out when I considered the synergy between Arcbound Ravager and Walking Ballista/Hangarback Walker. I like all of these cards but hadn't played them in Legacy outside of Ballista in Bomberman, a very different deck with different reasons for playing the card. The +1/+1 counter theme, and remembering Metalwalker's old stompy deck, pointed me to Steel Overseer which is fantastic with these kind of things. Manlands, as in Modern Affinity, go great with Ravager + Overseer. My favorite card - Chalice - is not restricted in this format, and the one drops the Modern deck plays are far too underpowered to be an alternative. For once I find myself actually playing Thorn of Amethyst, since pretty much the whole deck costs 2, Trinisphere actually messes with the curve a lot. Lodestone Golem stacks well with Thorn and can be protected from removal by Chalice, Ravager, and Overseer. After that all came together, I filled in the other nonland slots with Moxen and a couple of flex slots. With the creative process out of the way, the first list:

4 Hangarback Walker
4 Walking Ballista
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Steel Overseer
4 Lodestone Golem

3 Mox Diamond
3 Mox Opal
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Crucible of Worlds

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Wasteland

Sideboard

3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Powder Keg
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Etched Champion
4 Faerie Macabre
2 Spine of Ish Sah

The sideboard is a bit of a mess but the main felt very solid at the first local event. As expected from a Chalice deck, any game where you are on the play feels extremely strong, but the presence of Thorn and potential turn 2 Golems makes this even more noticeable than normal. Turn one Deathrite when you're on the draw of course feels bad, but can be played around. I will likely make the following changes the next time I play the deck (which won't be for a while as our local event is Monday which falls on Christmas/New Year's).

-3 Mox Opal
-2 Cavern of Souls

+1 Mox Diamond
+4 Mishra's Factory

Mox Opal was underwhelming because it's next to impossible to activate it turn one unless your hand is already bonkers. More lands is likely better. Cavern is a mixed bag because of the variety of creature types in the 75, and I found myself wishing it was just another manland. More manlands makes Ravager and Overseer even better and ensures you just don't run out of dudes. Also, despite the relatively low curve you really don't want to miss land drops, and the 8 dudes with "XX" in their cost really soften the impact of any potential mana flood. I almost want to play a couple copies of Wastes because of the multiple Veteran Explorer decks in my meta right now, but that might be a little much. Side note: this deck is deceptively strong against the Rector/Enchantments VE deck due to the combination of taxing effects and +1/+1 counters. My first event went like this:

Round 1: WGB Rector/Veteran Explorer

Game one I win the roll and have turn 1 Thorn, turn 2 Golem, turn 3 Golem. Not much to say about this one as he really didn't cast anything at all. Game 2 is more of the same but slower, which allowed him to GSZ for Explorer to slow the offense. Two Golems, Ravager, and I think a Hangarback Walker made appearances. 2-0

Round 2: Casual Mono-Red Goblins

Pretty sure this was basically a starter deck, but he won round one so who am I to judge. Game one I'm on the play with Chalice and Lodestone Golem, which slows him down enough for me to get there. Game two I die to a bunch of hasty Goblins as my draw is insufficiently explosive. Game three I have Chalice and we trade removal on things (Bomb and Keg for me, various burn spells for him). Eventually a decently sized Ravager gets there. 2-1

Round 3: Grixis Delver

I once again win the die roll (I usually lose them all when playing Chalice so this is awesome). I open with turn one Walking Ballista off of land, Mox Diamond. He plays Delver which dies to Ballista, and then I have double Wasteland. I draw Crucible while he durdles and he scoops to impending Wastelock. Game two I awkwardly play Mox Diamond into Daze and then get my Wasteland both Wastelanded and Surgically Extracted. I'm stuck on two lands and my first couple things get countered or killed by Ancient Grudge, but he lacks pressure with just a Deathrite. Eventually I started sticking dudes with "x" in their cost and I think a Ravager, while he floods out. 2-0

Not a bad showing for a first test run, although winning all the die rolls definitely made things easier than they probably should have been. Anyways, pick up the deck, play it, tell me I'm terrible at magic, whatever. It's fun to play and might have potential.

Wilkin
12-19-2017, 09:40 PM
When you say more manlands, what exactly were you thinking? In terms of guys that become artifact creatures (aside from what u r playing already) all i could find are Dread Sanctuary and Stalking Stones. I guess you could run mutavault but that doesn't interact with Ravager or Overseer.

I'd probably just run a Ghost Quarter or 2 to go along with your Crucible of Worlds. Most decks don't play many basics anyway. Or maybe Inventor's Fair and/or Buried Ruin.

Seems janky, but what about Tezzeret's Gambit? Card draw that proliferates your army.

Agrippa91
12-19-2017, 10:04 PM
Why Spine of Ish Sah over All Is Dust? You have no metalworker or workshop that profits it being an artifact. I guess there's the ravager-synergy, but this seems kind of slow. Against decks that swarm the board with TNN or Mentor I'm pretty sure you want the Eldrazi spell over the artifact, even if that's a flavor-fail :wink:

Wilkin
12-19-2017, 10:17 PM
Why Spine of Ish Sah over All Is Dust? You have no metalworker or workshop that profits it being an artifact. I guess there's the ravager-synergy, but this seems kind of slow. Against decks that swarm the board with TNN or Mentor I'm pretty sure you want the Eldrazi spell over the artifact, even if that's a flavor-fail :wink:

I'm guessing Spine is for Show and Tell strategies and Ratchet Bomb/Powder Keg is for swarm decks.

Admiral_Arzar
12-19-2017, 10:22 PM
I'm guessing Spine is for Show and Tell strategies and Ratchet Bomb/Powder Keg is for swarm decks.

That is correct. Show and Tell is a fixture in my meta, and All is Dust is difficult to cast without Eldrazi lands or mana rocks like Monolith/Dynamo.


When you say more manlands, what exactly were you thinking? In terms of guys that become artifact creatures (aside from what u r playing already) all i could find are Dread Sanctuary and Stalking Stones. I guess you could run mutavault but that doesn't interact with Ravager or Overseer.

I'd probably just run a Ghost Quarter or 2 to go along with your Crucible of Worlds. Most decks don't play many basics anyway. Or maybe Inventor's Fair and/or Buried Ruin.

Seems janky, but what about Tezzeret's Gambit? Card draw that proliferates your army.

Mishra's Factory was what I meant by extra manlands. It wasn't in the first draft although I did think about including it. All the other lands are definitely possible, not sure if any of them is better than keeping on a couple of Caverns though. I'm not sure there's room for proliferate shenanigans in here, I have another deck idea for that ;).

Wilkin
12-19-2017, 10:48 PM
That is correct. Show and Tell is a fixture in my meta, and All is Dust is difficult to cast without Eldrazi lands or mana rocks like Monolith/Dynamo.



Mishra's Factory was what I meant by extra manlands. It wasn't in the first draft although I did think about including it. All the other lands are definitely possible, not sure if any of them is better than keeping on a couple of Caverns though. I'm not sure there's room for proliferate shenanigans in here, I have another deck idea for that ;).

Oh wow Factory. Completely forgot that one.

Hmm.....yeah Inventor's Fair is great for me when I've played MUD but your deck has a ton of redundant pieces so I'm not sure it's as good in your deck. However, with Crucible of Worlds it's pretty much Demonic Tutor every turn....

Admiral_Arzar
12-19-2017, 11:06 PM
Oh wow Factory. Completely forgot that one.

Hmm.....yeah Inventor's Fair is great for me when I've played MUD but your deck has a ton of redundant pieces so I'm not sure it's as good in your deck. However, with Crucible of Worlds it's pretty much Demonic Tutor every turn....

The recurring tutor part is attractive for sure, it just costs a ton of mana to pull off. The redundancy is by design - it doesn't matter much what you draw in this deck as long as it's lands and spells, outside of combo matchups where you need to draw lock pieces of course. Part of the reason I don't play MUD anymore is because the high-cost cards force you to draw large amounts of mana in order to do anything, which adds to the inherent instability of the stompy shell even more. Stompy decks with lower curves tend to be more consistent as you end up unable to cast your business spells much less often.

mgrinshpon
01-10-2018, 11:04 AM
How are none of these lists running The Abyss? Card is nuts in Affinity shells.

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whienot
01-10-2018, 11:10 AM
How are none of these lists running The Abyss? Card is nuts in Affinity shells.

Sent from my PH-1 using Tapatalk

Paging Vintage Greg! He did fairly well at EW playing Affinity with a full set of The Abyss.

Dice_Box
01-10-2018, 12:36 PM
http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/2018/01/07/amadeus-grun-men-steel/

MAIN DECK:
4 Walking Ballista
2 Lodestone Golem
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Steel Overseer
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Vault Skirge
2 Hangarback Walker
3 Mox Opal
4 Lotus Petal
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Karakas
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Inventor's Fair
4 Wasteland

SIDEBOARD:
2 Spellskite
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Ensaring Bridge
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Sorceress Spyglasses
2 Ratchet Bomb

I like the idea of moving Revoker to the side for Hangerback and Golem.

itrytostorm
01-10-2018, 01:16 PM
I like the idea of moving Revoker to the side for Hangerback and Golem.

I played a few hours with the new MKM list. Revokers were nuts. Can't imagine cutting them.

Eldariel
01-10-2018, 01:26 PM
I played a few hours with the new MKM list. Revokers were nuts. Can't imagine cutting them.

This is my experience playing various Stompy-decks too. Revokers usually do some very good stuff, pulling you out of matches you weren't winning otherwise and interacting with many difficult-to-interact-with things (DRS, LED, Heritage Druid, Sneak Attack, Jace, Vial, Grim Monolith, etc.) and in the worst case, they're still 2/1 artifact creatures in a deck with Ravager, Steel Overseer and some equipment. They particularly help with many of the more difficult/coinflippy G1s, which is really nice. Sadly they aren't amazing vs. Lands or Eldrazi, but you can still nail the occasional artifact from Lands and there are various uses that range from extremely important to niche vs. Eldrazi. Maindecking them is probably a metagame call but with how prevalent DRS is, I don't think it's a bad call at all.

Sisyphos
01-10-2018, 03:37 PM
Comparing my testing with the MKM list, you definitely want 4 Hangarback. It is probably the best card you have against Czech Pile. The most cuttable cards to fit in the final two are the SoFI and 1 Vault Skirge in my opinion. I don't like random one offs in these shells (for my dislike of using Inventor's Fair as a tutor, see the next point). Vault Skirge is the least impactful of the creatures and offers the least amount of utility. Don't cut Revokers. They are very rarely dead and often invaluable as has been pointed out.

I've cut Inventor's Fair from my list. I had 1-2 for the longest time and have never used it's effect (much too expensive for the mana base, the deck is not MUD or Tezzeret) and can't recall the life gain ever mattering. I've been much more happy with some number of Cavern of Souls or even Blinkmoth Nexi.

As for Golem, it's a meta call. I love the card and where I'm playing there are a lot of Storm players. But the deck can struggle to hit four mana, especially in a version using Lotus Petal. If you want to play the full playset, you probably have to slightly up the land count and exchange some Petals for Mox Diamonds. The MKM list runs 20 lands and 7 Petals/Opals, in some of my versions aiming to run 3-4 Lodestone I ran a mana base of 22-23 lands and 4-5 Opals/Diamonds sometimes +1 Petal for 27-28 mana sources total, making the deck slightly less explosive but more likely to hit 4 mana in time for Lodestone to be effective.

kinda
01-10-2018, 03:43 PM
Cutting sofi is nuts.

Sisyphos
01-10-2018, 04:13 PM
Cutting sofi is nuts.

Oh my gosh golly what a thoughtful and in depths analysis. The deck does not have SFM to increase the chance of finding the card. Running a one off without any tutor gives you 11% to see it in your opening hand, 20% to see it by turn 5 and only 28% to hit before turn 10. Not having access to SFM also means that you can't cheat in onto the board. So the % of games the card is actually relevant in, is even smaller than the percentages given as you also need the opponent to not have a counterspell. So taking into account that the card only is drawn in approximately 1 out of 5 games in time to be even possibly relevant, which is pretty low, the only scenario where it is indeed nuts to consider cutting the card would be if it wins those 20% of games pretty much on its own, as the card would have to significantly overperform given the low amount of times it comes up. And while the card is good, it is not that good.

As for using Inventor's Fair as a tutor, you need to have five mana to activate plus Fair itself, so we are talking about tutoring on turn 3 at best, more probably turn 4. That means you give up one of these turns not doing anything else to advance your board position. Continuing the secenario you will have to spend your next turn to play and equip the sword, requiring not only an additional land to get up to five mana again but also there not being a Thorn of Amethyst on the board, otherwise the time you're wasting is even more.

If you want to run 1-2 cards to add card selection and more evasion against TNN, play Smuggler's Copter.

Admiral_Arzar
01-10-2018, 08:58 PM
How are none of these lists running The Abyss? Card is nuts in Affinity shells.

Sent from my PH-1 using Tapatalk

1. This isn't Affinity
2. See 1.


Comparing my testing with the MKM list, you definitely want 4 Hangarback. It is probably the best card you have against Czech Pile. The most cuttable cards to fit in the final two are the SoFI and 1 Vault Skirge in my opinion. I don't like random one offs in these shells (for my dislike of using Inventor's Fair as a tutor, see the next point). Vault Skirge is the least impactful of the creatures and offers the least amount of utility. Don't cut Revokers. They are very rarely dead and often invaluable as has been pointed out.

I've cut Inventor's Fair from my list. I had 1-2 for the longest time and have never used it's effect (much too expensive for the mana base, the deck is not MUD or Tezzeret) and can't recall the life gain ever mattering. I've been much more happy with some number of Cavern of Souls or even Blinkmoth Nexi.

As for Golem, it's a meta call. I love the card and where I'm playing there are a lot of Storm players. But the deck can struggle to hit four mana, especially in a version using Lotus Petal. If you want to play the full playset, you probably have to slightly up the land count and exchange some Petals for Mox Diamonds. The MKM list runs 20 lands and 7 Petals/Opals, in some of my versions aiming to run 3-4 Lodestone I ran a mana base of 22-23 lands and 4-5 Opals/Diamonds sometimes +1 Petal for 27-28 mana sources total, making the deck slightly less explosive but more likely to hit 4 mana in time for Lodestone to be effective.

I will have to test Revoker main, but I really don't like it over any of the creatures I am currently running. Definitely agree on Hangarback Walker, that card is nuts against any deck that wants to grind you out. Vault Skirge I am suspicious of - without Cranial Plating and Signal Pest it doesn't seem all that strong, and paying 2 life actually matters in Ancient Tomb-heavy draws. I like a pile of manlands to interact favorably with Ravager/Overseer and ensure you don't run out of threats.


Cutting sofi is nuts.

I don't like 1-ofs in decks with no card selection.

kinda
01-11-2018, 03:40 AM
It does have card selection, there are two inventor's fairs.

MD.Ghost
01-11-2018, 04:01 AM
I would go straight with this list:

// 60 Maindeck

// 14 Artifact
3 Mox Diamond
2 Mox Opal
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Crucible of Worlds

// 22 Creature
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Walking Ballista
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Steel Overseer
3 Lodestone Golem
3 Phyrexian Revoker

// 24 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
2 Inventors' Fair
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Mishra's Factory

// 15 Sideboard
SB: 2 Karakas
SB: 3 Sorcerous Spyglass
SB: 2 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 4 Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 Etched Champion

Maindeck is without many spicy ideas, its simple beatdown and disruption (tax/landdestruction) with grindy options. Sideboard you can adjust but i think Spine/Karakas for Show&Tell, while Spine hits all, Karakas is more flexible and will helps vs DDepths&Reanimate too, Etched Champion+Umezawa's Jitte is for fair Matchups, Batterskull as a 1off Tutortarget (Inventors' Fair) if you need more grindy options, it can be a Sword-Equipment too if needed, but Batterskull works alone and can be hard to remove. Unless nobody runs Null Rod i think Steel Stompy can be good enough at current meta game because it offers a fast, disruptiv shell that can also be used to grind out in various ways (needed vs C.Pile).

Dice_Box
01-11-2018, 04:08 AM
Where I am sitting, it looks like the deck that did well is a close to straight port from the Vintage deck. Revoker in Vintage is a land distruction card, killing Moxen. In Legacy it's role is less important. So I looked at editing the deck a little and came up with this:

//Creatures:
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Hangarback Walker
2 Lodestone Golem
4 Steel Overseer
4 Vault Skirge
4 Walking Ballista

//Artifacts:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lotus Petal
3 Mox Opal
3 Smuggler's Copter
4 Thorn of Amethyst

//Lands:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland

//Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Spellskite
2 Equipment

I plan to play it this week.

Eldariel
01-11-2018, 05:06 AM
Revoker affecting DRS and Aether Vial is pretty big in the tempo plan though. I like it more than Vault Skirge based on what I've seen thus far; while Skirge being a 1-drop is sometimes relevant, the deck just doesn't feel like it has enough ways to make it more than a 1/1 lifelink flier, which doesn't influence the game enough to be worth a card. Though of course, Smuggler's Copter might or might not make it a tad better, being a 1/1. I personally also like Inkmoth over Mishra's just for the Ravager oneshot potential. Even with just a Blinkmoth, it's a veritable extra threat. The dissynergy between Thorn and Smuggler's feels like it could be a problem at times.

Sisyphos
01-11-2018, 10:03 AM
I would go straight with this list:
[...]
2 Crucible of Worlds
[...]


Seriously... What is it with your obsession of putting Crucible in these decks? You did the same in Thalia Stompy. I'm wondering how long it will take you this time to realize that this deck does not want this type of card either. There is a reason why the only deck that runs the card maindeck in any form of regularity is Stax.

Dice_Box
01-11-2018, 10:13 AM
RuG Lands.

It's not a bad card to run as a secondary game plan. It also makes the Mox Diamond less painful.

itrytostorm
01-11-2018, 10:19 AM
While I agree we dont have many ways to pump Skirge, that with fair was the only way I beat a turn 1 flipped delver. the life gain that fair gives us as early as turn one is not to be underestimated. Also searching up SoFi is great. I wouldn't waste SB spots on Karakas but I do want to fit Blinkmoth in. Revokers I feel should be in the main since almost every single deck has a reasonable - great card to name. With how much pile is around I think 4 Hangars are reasonable. I guess it's just a matter of getting the numbers correct. Do we need for City? I want the answer to be no but I feel it is a yes. My opinion right now:

4x Ravager
4x Overseer
4x Ballista
4x Hangarback
4x Skirge
4x Revoker

4x Chalice
4x Thorn
3x Opal
4x Petal
1x SoFI

4x Tomb
3x City
1x Karakas
4x Wasteland
4x Factory
2x Fair
2x Blink

-------------
4x LoTV
4x Bridge
2x Lodestone
2x SpyGlass
2x Ratchet
1x SoFi

Sisyphos
01-11-2018, 10:53 AM
RuG Lands.

It's not a bad card to run as a secondary game plan. It also makes the Mox Diamond less painful.

Lands plays a singleton Crucible because it can't run 5 Loams and because it is a Loam replacement that can be recurred with Academy Ruins. The point is that Lands and Stax are Prison decks that want to grind the opponent out and do not only use Crucible to mitigate City of Traitors/Mox Diamond disadvantages but to actively further their game plan, providing a permanent Smokestack lock or a recursion engine. Neither Thalia Stompy nor this deck has such an additional use for the card. Yes you will win random games because of Wasteland recursion with this deck if you include Crucible. But in the vast majority of games spending three mana and a turn simply to produce a couple of additional mana by bringing back sacrificed Citys or Lands discarded to Mox is just not worth the card slot and the card will either do nothing relevant or won't even be castable under multiple Thorns.

Eldariel
01-11-2018, 04:24 PM
While I agree we dont have many ways to pump Skirge, that with fair was the only way I beat a turn 1 flipped delver. the life gain that fair gives us as early as turn one is not to be underestimated. Also searching up SoFi is great. I wouldn't waste SB spots on Karakas but I do want to fit Blinkmoth in. Revokers I feel should be in the main since almost every single deck has a reasonable - great card to name. With how much pile is around I think 4 Hangars are reasonable. I guess it's just a matter of getting the numbers correct. Do we need for City? I want the answer to be no but I feel it is a yes.

I really like maximizing the number of turn 1 Chalices. To that end, 4 Cities feels pretty obvious. This deck definitely wants to come out of the gates guns blazing anyways and to that end, City helps a lot. Of course, it tends to accelerate for a couple of turns and turn into net negative thereafter but if we're willing to play Lotus Petals, this feels natural.

One of the reasons I questioned Vault Skirge was actually Mox Opal. It seems to me like you'd want to again maximize your turn 1 Chalices and a 0-drop artifact like Ornithopter would activate Opal on turn 1 more consistently, which would in turn reinforce the Chalice plan. Vault Skirge needs to hit twice to make up for the lifeloss casting it accrued so barring cases where you cast it for 2, it takes 3 turns for it to gain 1 point of life. To offset one Delver hit, you need 5 turns. That just doesn't feel that amazing unless you get to dump counters on it. Though being able to fetch up SoFI is certainly nice and the lifegain from Fair is likely to not be entirely irrelevant in races either.

Are you sure you wouldn't want to try Inkmoth Nexus? Inkmoth + Ravager is a potent combo indeed. I think there's a chance that Blinkmoth + Inkmoth might be more powerful than Factory + Blinkmoth. Blinkmoth can pump Inkmoth and Inkmoth presents a fairly fast clock alone and threatens constant kill with Ravager around. Factory can be strong, but a 10/10 Infect creature is literally a one-hit kill and aside from Delver, flying blockers aren't very common in Legacy so they kinda have to save removal for it (or die trying, particularly with Chalice around).

Dice_Box
01-11-2018, 07:32 PM
Inkmoth is better when you have 8 ways to pump it. (Plating too) This deck has only four. Your better off having all your damage be the same then splitting it over two types with that hope it will sometimes work out.

Admiral_Arzar
01-11-2018, 10:45 PM
Seriously... What is it with your obsession of putting Crucible in these decks? You did the same in Thalia Stompy. I'm wondering how long it will take you this time to realize that this deck does not want this type of card either. There is a reason why the only deck that runs the card maindeck in any form of regularity is Stax.

Crucible negates the drawbacks of Mox Diamond and City of Traitors, enables free wins via Waste-lock, and ensures you never run out of manlands. In my build, which runs all of these cards, it is quite strong.

MD.Ghost
01-12-2018, 06:24 AM
Seriously... What is it with your obsession of putting Crucible in these decks? You did the same in Thalia Stompy. I'm wondering how long it will take you this time to realize that this deck does not want this type of card either. There is a reason why the only deck that runs the card maindeck in any form of regularity is Stax.

I will answer it with some quotes first:




3 Mox Diamond
2 Crucible of Worlds

I draw Crucible while he durdles and he scoops to impending Wastelock.


I'd probably just run a Ghost Quarter or 2 to go along with your Crucible of Worlds. Most decks don't play many basics anyway.



It's not a bad card to run as a secondary game plan. It also makes the Mox Diamond less painful.

Crucible negates the drawbacks of Mox Diamond and City of Traitors, enables free wins via Waste-lock, and ensures you never run out of manlands. In my build, which runs all of these cards, it is quite strong.

Crucible isnt the holy grail thats right and i currently play 0 copies at Thalia Stompy and i am fine with a cut of here too - but the card isnt bad in a Stompy Shell if paired with fast cheap beaters (check), wastelands (check), tax pieces (check), using Mox Diamond (check), getting. Starting with Turn 1 Chalice/Thorn and Turn 2 Beater + Wasteland is strong in most cases, getting Wastelands back should be the last nail in the coffin. Note i also included 2 Ghost Quarters in this build!

Getting Wasted out of the Game is also one of the biggest problems for Stompy shells since it aims to run higher cc cards than most other decks - even if steel stompy has a lot of cheap cc2 cards is still cc2 compared to DRS/Delver/Cantrips without any realy draw effect/manipulation. So having a backup (Crucible) isnt bad, especially with a Playset City of Traitors that tends to backfire sometimes.

But overall i can also see builds without Crucible and i still test different cards here. Cutting 2 Ghost Quarters for 2 Karakas (see MKM build) is also fine, running Lotus Petal over Mox Diamond and cutting Crucible for something like Smugglers Copter (good card especially with Revoker that more or less only attack if the opponent has no blockers).

sporenfrosch1411
01-12-2018, 01:34 PM
Check the list a friend of mine has been playing on MKM Series Frankfurt (a fairly big tournament for german standards, 380 players just in Legacy ), that i have also contributed a tiny bit to ==>
Its somewhat hard to properly pilot, but really rewarding and just an overall blast to play :)
He went 4-0 in the qualifier and 8-0(-2, ID into T8) in the tournament, and overall the only game he lost was in the finals.

https://www.cardmarket.com/de/Magic/Decks/Events/MKMSeries-Frankfurt-2018---Legacy-2018-01-08/5a5332b4b56e0c4298281547

MAINBOARD
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Steel Overseer
4 Vault Skirge
4 Walking Ballista
2 Hangarback Walker
2 Lodestone Golem
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Mox Opal
4 Lotus Petal

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
2 Inventors' Fair
2 Karakas


SIDEBOARD
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Spellskite
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Dice_Box
01-16-2018, 03:52 PM
Played last night. 4/1 finish. I lost to a Nic Fit Enchantment deck, I won again Lands, Pile, Pox and DnT.

What I learnt was thus:
Mox Opal is a good card for getting to 4 mana on your second turn. That's what it's for. It let's me go Sol land into artifact into a second artifact, land Mox. That said, I didn't really care for it.

Steel Overseer is the decks secret MVP. I actually tapped man lands in the early stages of the game more just to activate themselves. Then in the late game they became really hard to deal with. A hand with Overseer in fairer matches is better than a hand with a lock piece.

The lock pieces don't really matter a ton. At least not as much as they do in other Stompy decks. Your out of the gate at such a clip that fair decks are going to have to keep up somehow or lose. A turn one Chalice might not even be right if you have a turn one Overseer into turn two Chalice, Ballista.

The deck needs the Copter, you need to hold a card. Don't play that turn five Petal unless you really need to feed Ravager. Hold it. You will want it when you draw a Thopter. Thopter and man lands did a lot against heavy removal games. Letting me claw back in after Pox did its thing. I think that's a good plan.

The Karakas are going to be a lifesaver against Reanimator, it's not a good match from the looks of it. But in other matches having the man lands is better, make your own call.

Qernavak
01-16-2018, 05:40 PM
Played last night. 4/1 finish. I lost to a Nic Fit Enchantment deck, I won again Lands, Pile, Pox and DnT.

What I learnt was thus:
Mox Opal is a good card for getting to 4 mana on your second turn. That's what it's for. It let's me go Sol land into artifact into a second artifact, land Mox. That said, I didn't really care for it.

Steel Overseer is the decks secret MVP. I actually tapped man lands in the early stages of the game more just to activate themselves. Then in the late game they became really hard to deal with. A hand with Overseer in fairer matches is better than a hand with a lock piece.

The lock pieces don't really matter a ton. At least not as much as they do in other Stompy decks. Your out of the gate at such a clip that fair decks are going to have to keep up somehow or lose. A turn one Chalice might not even be right if you have a turn one Overseer into turn two Chalice, Ballista.

The deck needs the Copter, you need to hold a card. Don't play that turn five Petal unless you really need to feed Ravager. Hold it. You will want it when you draw a Thopter. Thopter and man lands did a lot against heavy removal games. Letting me claw back in after Pox did its thing. I think that's a good plan.

The Karakas are going to be a lifesaver against Reanimator, it's not a good match from the looks of it. But in other matches having the man lands is better, make your own call.


When you say ďThopterĒ, do you mean Hangarback Walker?


Can you post your decklist?


I have been jamming the MKM version of the deck on mtgo. Itís very very powerful and it fits right into the current online meta. With the testing I had so far, and having some experience with Workshop and Eldrazi Stompy, I am going to make the following modifications, with some of the suggestions previously posted here.

The most obvious change is SoFI for Jitte. Jitte is not only inherently more powerful, but itís easier to cast and provides a more reliable supplemental form of removal.

Basically, Thorns are not maindeckable in the current metagame. I learned that a long time ago with Eldrazi decks. Current meta is dominated by creature decks. Ensnaring Bridge makes better sense, but I donít see it as a 4x, since there isnít really any pressure to drop it in early in the game.

Lodestone Golem, while powerful, itís not easy to put into play, and even if it does eventually come into play, it no longer has a meaningful impact. Instead, I the card that I needed more frequently was hangarback walker, so I upped its count.

I understand that the 4x Petals complement the 3x OpalsÖ but I think both of these are examples of cards you donít want to draw multiples of, therefore reduced the Petal count to 3x.

Inventorís Fair is OK. In locked out games, the life game is nice. But even when I have the mana available, I didnít end up activating it because: a) I already need to do something more useful with the mana. b) the cards that I could bring are not that impactful, c) it takes another turn for the card to come down. I will keep an eye on this one, but for now I will follow the above suggestion to use Blinkmoth Nexus as manlands #1 and #2.

Many games got stalled and my flyers were the only way for me to do damage. Iím adding 2x Smugglersí Copters for additional flying power.

I was surprisingly happy with Revoker in the main, and Spellskite in the SB. These two are key role players in winning games. Socerous Splyglass was another MVP.

My future decklist will look like this:

MAINBOARD
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Steel Overseer
4 Vault Skirge
4 Walking Ballista
2 4 Hangarback Walker
2 Lodestone Golem
1 Sword of Fire and Ice Umezawaís Jitte

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst 3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Mox Opal
4 3 Lotus Petal
2 Smugglerís Copter

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
2 Inventors' Fair Blinkmoth Nexus
2 Karakas


SIDEBOARD
4 Ensnaring Bridge 4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Spellskite
1 Sword of Fire and Ice Umezawaís Jitte

Dice_Box
01-16-2018, 05:48 PM
Sorry, meant Copter. My phone Auto corrected.
Totally agree on Spellskite, with a deck that works best with all its moving pieces left alone that card is very useful.

//Creatures:
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Hangarback Walker
2 Lodestone Golem
4 Steel Overseer
4 Vault Skirge
4 Walking Ballista

//Artifacts:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lotus Petal
3 Mox Opal
3 Smuggler's Copter
4 Thorn of Amethyst

//Lands:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland

//Sideboard:
2 Etched Champion
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Spellskite
2 Umezawa's Jitte

ThomasDowd
01-16-2018, 07:25 PM
How was vault skirge for either of you?

Is there something that can exist in that slot that is better than skirge, or is the 1 mana 1/1 lifelink flier that strong? I have not played the legacy version of this deck so I am totally in the dark. I just know in modern " affinity" its mostly good due to pest/ plating.

Dice_Box
01-16-2018, 07:45 PM
It's got a hidden mode, Turn on Metalcraft, that I find useful. Also Lifelink can do a ton. Is it the most likely card to get cut though? Yep.

contra
01-16-2018, 08:07 PM
This deck is siiick! I know it's not affinity, but what about a light blue splash for Thoughtcast and maybe Tezzeret's Gamble? Seat of synod would up the artifact count and maybe facilitate mox opals...

hofzge
01-17-2018, 05:43 AM
I played some games against a Grixis Control deck and the one card I always wanted was Hangarback Walker. I think with Kolaghan's Command as popular as it is it would IMHO be foolish not to play 3-4 of them here, where it has so many synergies.

Man of Steel
01-17-2018, 07:48 AM
I think, depending on the metagame, you can go up to 4 hangarback walker. But Cutting vault skirge is a mistake. I tested the deck all possible Numbers of Lodestone Golem from 0-4. In my opinion 2 is correct, but you can make an argument for 3. But every other number is incorrect unless you change the deck completly

If you are not maindecking thorns, play an other deck or at least a whole other version. I designed this deck to take advantage of playing 8 to 12 (12 if you count revoker) two mana lock pieces.

Steel overseer is not the secret mvp, he is the obvious MVP of the deck. He turns bad cards to good cards and so on

Sword of fire and ice is in the deck because of its strengh ageinst strix and TNN. Funny enough i started my testing with two copter then changed them to two jitte and ended with two sofi

Hedronic
01-17-2018, 10:21 AM
For those of you who want to know more about the Frankfurt list, I had the pleasure to have the Man of Steel himself on my little show on YouTube. :wink:

I posted the video on the Format & Article Discussion section, right here:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32219-Video-Sideboard-Files-Steel-Stompy-deck-sideboard-tech&p=1034494#post1034494

NormalGuy
01-17-2018, 07:28 PM
Is there any gameplan against mass artifact hate such as Null Rod and Hurkyl's Recall

Dice_Box
01-17-2018, 08:19 PM
Yep, lose.

Eldariel
01-18-2018, 02:00 AM
Is there any gameplan against mass artifact hate such as Null Rod and Hurkyl's Recall

If you see Hurkyl's Recall, you're in a weird meta indeed. Null Rod you can beat if it comes down a bit later and you've had the chance to already get a Ravager or so down and can make something big. This deck doesn't run on artifact mana sources so it's slightly less destroyed by Null Rod but of course, most of your cards are 2/X or 1/X with no abilities with it in play. Hence why a Ravager eating things and going to town (though Chalice might be equally backbreaking to your enemy). Energy Flux is much the same, you need to get one threat out there and ride it to victory. Seeds of Innocence & al. are much like Hurkyl except without the rebuilding opportunity, but with manlands you can generally leave something behind. Serenity is actually pretty slow so you can prepare for it. Ancient Grudge and company are eminently beatable cards you can play through; spot removal is pretty bad against Ravager much of the time and the Tax plan can make particularly the 3-mana hate cards unwieldy.

But honestly, aside from a random Null Rod I'd expect the worst you have to put up with to be Ancient Grudge, Sorcerous Spyglass and Pithing Needle, which are much more tenable than the heavy duty artifact hate (since the only artifact presences in the meta are like this and MUD-variants, and neither are very popular so why the hell would someone spend SB space on Energy Flux or something...?).

Dice_Box
01-18-2018, 02:21 AM
The card I think you might actually see that hurts is Cursed Totem if your meta has a lot of Elves.

MD.Ghost
01-18-2018, 04:49 AM
I currently jam this version and it works quite well - coming from a lot of other stompy decks i am surprised that the little artifacts do their job and it also very good to grind out battles with all the cheap interaction, it adds up quickly.

Compared to MKM version i also liked the 3rd Lodestone more than another Thorn, while Thorn is nice as a start it can do nothing in some matchups and simply is a bad topdeck in a lot of situations, Lodestone apply some pressure on its own and can be cast T2 too - in terms of higher cc or topdecks, smugglers copter to a ton of work, not only offers fast airstrikes, it also a nice filter draw engine and can be turned of with 1 mana-manland too!

I can see what Amadeus meant by Strix/Tnn but Etched Champion (or even Jitte) can also do a lot of damage vs blue control decks. I currently try different one offs since if game enters stall/grind you can also use Inventors' Fair tutor quite often vs Miracle, C.Pile etc.

// 60 Maindeck

// 15 Artifact
2 Mox Opal
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Smuggler's Copter
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Lotus Petal

// 23 Creature
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Walking Ballista
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Steel Overseer
3 Lodestone Golem
4 Phyrexian Revoker

// 22 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
2 Inventors' Fair
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Blinkmoth Nexus
2 Karakas

// 15 Sideboard
SB: 2 Sorcerous Spyglass
SB: 2 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Etched Champion
SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void

hofzge
01-18-2018, 05:34 AM
How about a step into the other direction? I see you took out a little acceleration and added slower cards. How about adding something even more breakneck:

3 Mox Opal
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst

2 Hangarback Walker
4 Walking Ballista
3 Lupine Prototype
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Steel Overseer
4 Vault Skirge
4 Phyrexian Revoker

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
2 Inventors' Fair
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Karakas

// 15 Sideboard
SB: 2 Sorcerous Spyglass
SB: 2 Lodestone Golem
SB: 1 Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 4 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void

Man of Steel
01-18-2018, 05:42 AM
this so funny!!

I actually tested etched champion and lupine prototype.

The champion was to slow for because of the cc 3. But i am curious to hear what your impression of the card is and in whitch matchup you want them.

For the prototype: My problem was that the prototype forces you to overextend into sweepers and also forces you to play lands even if you want to hold them in your hand. The Reason for holding lands can be the fear of price of progress or having a city out and not wanting to sac it

Please let me know what your expieriences are

Whitefaces
01-18-2018, 07:06 AM
I played vs a friend on this deck at my lgs on Tuesday, looked very impressive. Look forward to giving it a go myself soon too, great job @Man of Steel!

MD.Ghost
01-18-2018, 08:42 AM
this so funny!!

I actually tested etched champion and lupine prototype.

The champion was to slow for because of the cc 3. But i am curious to hear what your impression of the card is and in whitch matchup you want them.

For the prototype: My problem was that the prototype forces you to overextend into sweepers and also forces you to play lands even if you want to hold them in your hand. The Reason for holding lands can be the fear of price of progress or having a city out and not wanting to sac it

Please let me know what your expieriences are

Etched Champion - it works well vs fair creature Decks with a bunch of smaller creatures (aka Bridge isnt great enough) and with Raver/Overseer/Equipment it can be quickly "GG" and its a good roadblock until you set up. Bonus Points for also dodge spot removal in most cases. I switch it with Lodestone or Revoker depends on what i face, cc3 is okay because you dont need it the early turns and if this deck can support other cc3 stuff (lodestone, swords, bridge) Champion should also be cheap enough.

For Prototype, yeah not sold on it, more all in card than needed and holding lands can also be good if you run some copters:wink:

@Man of Steel
Overall impressiv deck and very nice that you runned it successfully at mkm, besides i missed the opportunity to talk with you about it :tongue:

NormalGuy
01-18-2018, 11:32 PM
If you see Hurkyl's Recall, you're in a weird meta indeed. Null Rod you can beat if it comes down a bit later and you've had the chance to already get a Ravager or so down and can make something big. This deck doesn't run on artifact mana sources so it's slightly less destroyed by Null Rod but of course, most of your cards are 2/X or 1/X with no abilities with it in play. Hence why a Ravager eating things and going to town (though Chalice might be equally backbreaking to your enemy). Energy Flux is much the same, you need to get one threat out there and ride it to victory. Seeds of Innocence & al. are much like Hurkyl except without the rebuilding opportunity, but with manlands you can generally leave something behind. Serenity is actually pretty slow so you can prepare for it. Ancient Grudge and company are eminently beatable cards you can play through; spot removal is pretty bad against Ravager much of the time and the Tax plan can make particularly the 3-mana hate cards unwieldy.

But honestly, aside from a random Null Rod I'd expect the worst you have to put up with to be Ancient Grudge, Sorcerous Spyglass and Pithing Needle, which are much more tenable than the heavy duty artifact hate (since the only artifact presences in the meta are like this and MUD-variants, and neither are very popular so why the hell would someone spend SB space on Energy Flux or something...?).

The storm players near me like to run Hurkyl's Recall in the sideboard to get around chalice/sphere effects. Miracles might run it too, not sure though.

Man of Steel
01-19-2018, 03:02 AM
@ hatecards:

you have to learn how to beat them. For example my brother Plays storm and he always has 3 hurkyl`s recall. The recalls are good, but if you always lose to it, you did something wrong
Same for null rod. In the testing Process a friend of mine played a maverick deck with 3 stony silence maindeck and i beat him 50% of the time

The lesson i try to teach you is:Testing has to be harder than the Tournament. Play against the absurd hate and the tournamnet will come easy to you

zebhillard
01-24-2018, 09:29 PM
@ hatecards:

you have to learn how to beat them. For example my brother Plays storm and he always has 3 hurkyl`s recall. The recalls are good, but if you always lose to it, you did something wrong
Same for null rod. In the testing Process a friend of mine played a maverick deck with 3 stony silence maindeck and i beat him 50% of the time

The lesson i try to teach you is:Testing has to be harder than the Tournament. Play against the absurd hate and the tournamnet will come easy to you

What were the matchups you had at MKMF? Were any particularly tricky or oddly easy? Are 4 Bridge and 2 Karakas enough for S&T with the Revokers?

Man of Steel
01-25-2018, 01:33 AM
to your third question: Yes, it is enough to make you a favorite, but i would not cut even one of those cards
in the trial iplayed against Enchantress, 4c Loam, Food Chain and Maverick and in the mainevent food chain, Moon Stompy, BR Reanimator, Grixis Delver, Eldrazi, Sneak & Show, Big Eldrazi, Cech Pile, storm

Grixis delver and the pile a hard to pilot and to sideboard but the rest was easy at least in my opinion. I tested the deck a lot and even i make many mistakes. Moon stompy is normally a horrible MU, but I might only think that because a friend of mine plays a very goog version of the deck for playing against me

mistercakes
01-25-2018, 06:36 AM
i love that you can go to a major tourney and play vs:
food chain, Moon Stompy, BR Reanimator, Grixis Delver, Eldrazi, Sneak & Show, Big Eldrazi, Czech Pile, storm all in one tournament!

legacy really is the best.

Hedronic
01-25-2018, 11:14 AM
Amen to that!

By the way, the first part of the sideboard guide is now online. You find it here:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32237-Video-Steel-Stompy-sideboard-guide-Part-1&p=1035191#post1035191

Kaono
01-28-2018, 01:11 AM
Steel Stompy just took 1st at this month's Card Kingdom 1k. 70-ish players. Vod here (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/223012214##).

Cave
01-28-2018, 07:16 AM
Steel Stompy just took 1st at this month's Card Kingdom 1k

in a very suspicious fashion though :tongue: there were lots of questionable life choices from the maverick player in the quarters, wasting two copies of Abrupt Decay on silly stuff when he could destroy the ensnaring bridge and make the 20/20 swing to the semis.

Cpt-Qc
01-28-2018, 10:43 AM
in a very suspicious fashion though :tongue: there were lots of questionable life choices from the maverick player in the quarters, wasting two copies of Abrupt Decay on silly stuff when he could destroy the ensnaring bridge and make the 20/20 swing to the semis.

Right, he could have won if he did not tunnel vision on a DRS kill (which is pretty odd give that you know your opponent doesn't play instant/sorceries and you have a very limited amount of them). I have noticed the same kind of behavior in the past where people "forget" to win because they're so focused on not dying and it hurts my maverick player instinct since it's supposed to be an agressive deck, not a control one!

On his defense tho, I think the first abrupt decay turned out ok because his opponent could have killed it's own Hangarback and made 5+ flying blockers for Marit Lage. The second one was just painful tho.

JPoJohnson
01-28-2018, 11:41 AM
On the flip side the steel stomp Player was trying to do everything in his control to win the game for the elves player in the finals.

Glad there was a very broad top 8. Those are always fun to see.

Man of Steel
01-28-2018, 01:32 PM
mŪke played suboptimal and his Version is suboptimal, but the core of my deck is so great, that all those things doesn`t matter

Raist0000
01-28-2018, 02:46 PM
Hi! Today I played the deck (the exact same version that top8'ed in the big MKM tourney). I went 4-2 and the matches were the following:
BR reanimator 2-1
Maverick 1-2
Storm 2-1
UR burn 1-2
Landstill 2-0
Grixis delver 2-1

I made some play mistakes overall, and also it was my first time playing the deck (never even playtested it). And the UR burn match was pretty close (he finished at 1 life in the third match). Overall I love the deck!

zebhillard
01-28-2018, 02:50 PM
mŪke played suboptimal and his Version is suboptimal, but the core of my deck is so great, that all those things doesn`t matter

Is SoFI that much better than Jitte? Also, thoughts on Dismember or some other form of spot removal outside of Ballista?

Man of Steel
01-28-2018, 03:34 PM
Is SoFI that much better than Jitte? Also, thoughts on Dismember or some other form of spot removal outside of Ballista?

dismember is too much lifeloss. Sofi is better than jitte (strix and tnn), but that is a Slot you can Change,but not for jitte or copter


@raist: the deckis suprisingly hard to Play. the weekest Point is the Pilot (even if i Play it):tongue:

Raist0000
01-28-2018, 04:12 PM
I was not impressed by sofi in my matches, it was always quite bad (but of course I didnt face any tnn or strix in all the tournament, so...).

Aside from that, the decklist looks nearly perfect. The skirges, although they might seem debatable, worked quite good overall. Maybe a third lodestone, or some more hangarbacks in sideboard. Also I think mishras factory versus blinkmoth nexus can be debatable, as flying is very relevant in some matches, its probably a metagame dependant choice like the sword?

I was also very impressed by the city of traitors. I think they work much much much better in this deck than in any other deck.

I sometimes had doubts about whether to sideboard in the bridges or not, not completely sure in which matches you want them (aside from obvious ones like reanimator or eldrazi).

Congrats for the good design!

Man of Steel
01-29-2018, 12:50 AM
Andrea Mengucci played my deck today at channelfireball. He showed the world how NOT to play my deck. He made every mistake you can imagine. You need to practice with the deck or you will loose matchups like burn or belcher like he did. I am so happy that it is not just me making mistakes.:tongue: By the way i like mengucci and his videos

vnayin
01-29-2018, 01:38 AM
Hey guys, I said in twitch chat today that I'd post my list from the CK 1K yesterday here.

List:

4 Overseer
4 Ravager
4 Hangarback
4 Ballista
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Vault Skirge
2 Revoker

4 Chalice
2 Thorn
2 Jitte

2 Petal
3 Opal
4 Tomb
4 Cavern
3 City
1 Karakas
4 Factory
4 Vault of Whispers
2 Wasteland

SB:

1 Dismember
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Cage
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Revoker
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Thorn


Matches I played for the day were: Storm, UR delver (camera match), Merfolk, Storm, Elves, ID, ID Top 8: Maverick, Sneak, Elves (same player as round 5)

I really liked the way this list played. I was actually brewing a list similar to this back in Nov. I Top 4ed the last CK 1K with a UB build that featured Thoughtcast and Tezzeret, but I really liked the design of the colorless version. The planeswalker gave the deck a lot of grind, but was a bit inconsistent at times. This list that I came to was basically a combination of what I liked about both.

Deck Design Decisions:

Manabase:

What I've actually come to learn in playing this deck is that you really don't need a turn 1 play always. The deck has a lot of grind to it, so as long as your manabase is stable you tend to be ok. I ideally want to sit at the 4-8 mana as the hangarbacks/ballistas are just so much better the bigger you can make them, so I wanted more permanence to my manabase. I tried the list with 4 petals and 4 city, but was having too many issues. I basically only ever want to see 1 petal in my opener maybe and never again after that, so I trimmed that to 2. Similarly, I trimmed a City. Playing 4 hangarback means there are 12 constructs in the deck, so cavern was a great inclusion to the deck. Since I trimmed some petals, I added vault of whispers to help increase the odds of fast metalcraft and is ravager food if you flood. Vaults could be darksteel citadels, or could trim some for more wastelands/other utility lands. I tend to not like wasteland a lot in the list. It has great utility, but I'm often trying to use all of my mana each turn to maximize the power of all of the threats this deck has.

2 Thorns:
Thorns are great a lot of the time, but not always I wanted to keep the threat count high and include more golems, because 4 golems are insane. Still want the 4 thorn vs combo, so moved them to the SB. Combo matchups are strong enough post board that I think its ok.

2 Jitte: With so many threats I think Jitte is the better equipment. It is pretty easy to be attacking with an equipped creature on turn 2 and in fair matches that is often game. The lifegain is great, and extra ways to pump skirges is awesome.

2 Revoker: Revoker is one of my favorite cards in vintage, but in legacy its powerful, but not always the best. I don't think you need 4 in the main and would rather have other things.

4 Golem: always insane in multiples, reminds me of vintage champs several years ago when I was able to play 4 golem 4 chalice. With a more stable manabase this guy is still easily castable and often can still come down on turn 3 or 2.

4 hangarback: single-handedly out grinds non-white fair matches and makes the ballista combo more potent. I could see it maybe go down to 3 of in the right meta, but I really like 4.

3 skirge: necessary but would rather not be a 4 of. jitte helps with the lifegain here so i think its ok to trim to 3.

SB:

1 Dismember: I like having a bit more removal for some of the fair matches

3 ratchet bombs: good catch-all, also expected a good showing of elves on the weekend, so bomb is great there

3 bridges: card is great If you're really concerned about TNN you can even board some of these in. Beat merfolk stablizing at 1 life staring at 3 TNN with a bridge in play.

1 Revoker: Really good in some matches, so still have a 3rd revoker in the 75

2 Thorn: Think these are better in the SB as Thorn isn't always the best.

1 Cage: was expecting elves

One thing to note about the CK meta, is that it tends to be a bit hostile to lands variants, so I was able to worry about that matchup a bit less when making design decisions.


Overall very happy with the deck. My play in the top 8 was sloppy, but after a long day I was a bit tired, everyone was making mistakes.


Important final note, Seattle area has been calling the list "Dos Equis" which I think is a great name for the deck.

Man of Steel
01-29-2018, 02:51 AM
First of all congrats to you mike.

When i saw your list, i realized that your deck is in my opinion totally different from my deck. You are going for a longer game in which lodestone golem is a very strong card. My deck is more of an Steel RUG Delver deck. Get ahead and stay ahead (of course steel stompy has much less trouble with being on the draw then RUG)

In on of my earlier Posts i sayed "if you dont want to play the 4 thorns , play an other deck". I want to be very clear about this. Your deck is in my opinion an other deck. The keeps and mulligans are different as well as the gameplay. I think you started with my list and created your own MUD:tongue:

Good job. If i were you, i would consider Phyrexian metamorph, because of the 4 golem and the lack of the fourth bridge and the second karakas

vnayin
01-29-2018, 03:10 AM
That's what so great about this engine. It's so powerful that you can pretty much set up the deck to fit your playstyle. I'll have to rethink metamorph. I had dismissed it early in the design of the deck, but that was before I had gone up to 4 golem. It is definitely worth reconsidering.

Eldariel
01-29-2018, 06:48 AM
I kinda really want to turn turn 1 Metalcraft Mox into a thing in this deck; I feel like it's a great pair for Chalice. However, I feel like Petals are a bit too much resources lost in a deck that makes great use of permanent mana and every spell. 0-cost artifacts that do things seem nice; while Ornithopter seems natural, it's only so good. This had me going through all the old 0-drop artifacts in the game. Welding Jar would be cool except for the removal used in Legacy. Fatal Push it works against but StP and Dismember are both immune to it. One thought that occurred to me is that this deck makes great use of additional cards so perhaps Mishra's or Urza's Baubles could be interesting? You get the card back and they are artifacts for stuff.

zebhillard
01-29-2018, 07:11 AM
In on of my earlier Posts i sayed "if you dont want to play the 4 thorns , play an other deck". I want to be very clear about this. Your deck is in my opinion an other deck. The keeps and mulligans are different as well as the gameplay. I think you started with my list and created your own MUD:tongue:

Good job. If i were you, i would consider Phyrexian metamorph, because of the 4 golem and the lack of the fourth bridge and the second karakas

Those Tusk boys like their long game, it's in their blood it seems.


That's what so great about this engine. It's so powerful that you can pretty much set up the deck to fit your playstyle. I'll have to rethink metamorph. I had dismissed it early in the design of the deck, but that was before I had gone up to 4 golem. It is definitely worth reconsidering.

I've been looking at Metamorph myself, with 3 Revoker / Petal and 2 Metamorph at the first changes I thought about.

Raist0000
01-29-2018, 07:49 AM
Clearly, vnayin's deck is slightly less explosive and more into the longer game. I personally prefer the original list (although maybe with an additional golem), and no way I'm cutting any cities or petals, as they are highly necessary to play one thing turn 1 and two things turn 2.

However, I think I agree with the jitte comment (without having tested it) because the difference in this deck between a casting cost of 2 and 3 is HUGE if you want to use it early. With sofi usually the best you can do is turn 1 critter turn 2 sofi turn 3 attack+another critter (not great), or turn 1 lock piece turn 2 critter critter turn 3 attack with sofi (only if you have 5 manas)... Whereas with jitte it can be turn 1 critter turn 2 attack with jitte (superb in some matchups), or turn 1 lock, turn 2 critter critter turn 3 attack with jitte (even if you only have 4 mana, so slightly easier).

Blacksummer
01-29-2018, 10:11 AM
Hi Man of Steel,

First of all, this is my first post on the forum and i made it just to thank you for sharing your decklist and congratulate you for MKM, i have managed to sleeve up the exact deck last week and brought it to 2 local game store's legacy night.

Just a quick summary of how the games went:

Store 1
Elves 2-1
G1: Managed to T1 chalice which delays them enough before he manages to find a rec sage which was too late. Had mishra's factory + ravager + walking ballista on board which grew everyturn and ping on almost every creature for the win.
G2: Took out 4Vault Skirges + 2hangerbacks + 2lodestone, in with 2rachet bomb + 4 bridges + 2spellskites, mull down to 4 as i did not have any sol-lands + lock pcs in 1st draw and no lands at all for 2nd draw, 3rd i remember was bad as well. Opponents was able to pull off early craterhoof with just 2creatrures on board and followed by hitting everyturn for 5 to which i did not drew into bridge.
G3: Got a chalice in play T1 which opponent did not draw into answer, followed up with wastelands into gaea's cradle and use a 1/1 to ping arbor dryad, this was enough of an advantage. Won using steel overseer pump on ballista afterwards.

U/W stoneforge 2-0
G1: Chalice was countered, but followed up with ballista sac to kill stonefordge b4 butterskull could come in. 2xmishra's factory and later with steel oversea pressure with the +1+1 pumps on factories was too much, opponent did not have much in play.
G2: Cant remember much, but was a quick kill, with SOFI + revoker.

Miracles (MythStill) 0-2
G1: T1 Chalice was fow, turn 2 thorn was countered. As the game dragged on i find myself unable to keep a creatures on the board, had a thorn + revoker on myth realised. But was later snapcaster plowed and died to myth activation.
G2: Sided in 2spyglasses + 2spellskite + 1 SOFI , out 2xloadestone + 4skirges. Mulled to 6 still no chalice in hand, first revoker got plowed, managed to keep another revoker + spyglass on board for long time stopping myth realised. Was hitting for 2s using mishras factory into game after most of the board got terminus and no hand. Mistake came when i used a inventor's fair to search for SOFI, as it would close the game equiping on factory. Opponent laid fown back to basics, found his disenchant and won.

Store 2
Czech piles 2-0
G1: Was hymm T1, put a ravager into play which was bolted. Played another ravager + hangerback, both stayed on board with opponent having a DRS + strix, managed to get steel overseer into play which won the game with airforce later.
G2: Cant remember on sideboard. Opponent did not present much threat after initial removals, was able to win with a thorn in play with a late chalice to stop removals.

Omni-tell 2-1
G1: Chalice was spell pierced, however opponent could not find pieces in time, lost to lodestone golem with SOFI which hits hard.
G2: Pulled in bridges, took out skirges. Hand was bad even after mull, thorn + 2ballistas and hangerback if im not wrong, was too greedy, did not mull again. Opponent managed to pull off SnT, showing omenisence. GG
G3: Mulled for chalice on 1,had bridge in hand ready for SnT, however did not have to use them, mishra's factory + steel overseer was too fast a clock and won before opponent could find combo pcs.

Dredge 2-0
G1: opponent on the play put ichorid + jellyfish onto play T2. I put hangerback which i ate and got rid of 2xbridges, with ravager eating lotus petal which helped to hold on for quite a few turns before i could stabilized at with ballista+steel overseer and won.
G2: In with Leyline of the void, drew it opening 7card hand. Smiled.

Against most decks, the general feel is that it seems able to always be just 1 turn ahead if lock pcs resolves.
I find that the hardest match up i had even in casual games were miracles varients. Its really hard to keep a stable board and plow or early terminus and it is really hard to get back into the game given snapcasters later.
Do you have any advise on this? Would like to hear from your experiences.

Thank you.

korstructure
01-29-2018, 06:34 PM
I've been thinking about Miracles and how to improve, as well. Miracles is unique because there is no Vintage analog to the deck - so no one's really had to think about how to beat Terminus and STP.

Where to find space: as Mike mentioned above, he could see trimming to 3x Hangarback Walker. I think this card is particularly bad against Miracles (Terminus + STP = no value). Where else could we find MD or SB space?

Some avenues to consider:

DNT leverages the equipment plan in the Miracles matchup. Any body + equipment is a threat and so DNT attempts to play one threat at a time along with the equipment to win. How can we add consistency to this plan? Is Inventor's Fair enough? Are there other similar effects?
Seagate Wreckage/Coercive Portal. Are these effects powerful enough? Or not impactful for the cost?
Winter Orb. Could our tax effects combine with our sol lands to push us ahead in a Winter Orb situation? We have many mana sinks - but it isn't necessary to utilize those sinks if we have an advantage on board, already.
Cavern of Souls. If Miracles and similar control decks are an issue, we MUST find room and maintain Cavern of Souls.






I find that the hardest match up i had even in casual games were miracles varients. Its really hard to keep a stable board and plow or early terminus and it is really hard to get back into the game given snapcasters later.
Do you have any advise on this? Would like to hear from your experiences.[/B]

Barook
01-29-2018, 07:14 PM
I've been thinking about Miracles and how to improve, as well. Miracles is unique because there is no Vintage analog to the deck - so no one's really had to think about how to beat Terminus and STP.

Where to find space: as Mike mentioned above, he could see trimming to 3x Hangarback Walker. I think this card is particularly bad against Miracles (Terminus + STP = no value). Where else could we find MD or SB space?

Some avenues to consider:

DNT leverages the equipment plan in the Miracles matchup. Any body + equipment is a threat and so DNT attempts to play one threat at a time along with the equipment to win. How can we add consistency to this plan? Is Inventor's Fair enough? Are there other similar effects?
Seagate Wreckage/Coercive Portal. Are these effects powerful enough? Or not impactful for the cost?
Winter Orb. Could our tax effects combine with our sol lands to push us ahead in a Winter Orb situation? We have many mana sinks - but it isn't necessary to utilize those sinks if we have an advantage on board, already.
Cavern of Souls. If Miracles and similar control decks are an issue, we MUST find room and maintain Cavern of Souls.

Things that are in general good vs Miracles are hasty creatures (either haste or EoT Aether Vial), uncounterable creatures (Cavern/Vial) or threats that are resilient (e.g. manlands).

Vial doesn't work with Walker/Ballista and I can't see Cavern working either with so many different creature types. I've heard alot of good things about Winter Orb, but never played it myself in any of my decks to confirm it.

Other than that, maybe Lightning Greaves? It opens up the haste/protection angle.

GreatWhale
01-29-2018, 11:42 PM
Things that are in general good vs Miracles are hasty creatures (either haste or EoT Aether Vial), uncounterable creatures (Cavern/Vial) or threats that are resilient (e.g. manlands).

Vial doesn't work with Walker/Ballista and I can't see Cavern working either with so many different creature types. I've heard alot of good things about Winter Orb, but never played it myself in any of my decks to confirm it.

Other than that, maybe Lightning Greaves? It opens up the haste/protection angle.

Is the Miracles match up that bad? I haven't got to play this deck yet but seems with 4 Factories, Chalices, Lodestone Golems, there is enough disruption and enough pressure to not have it be that bad. Eldrazi is what I currently play and Smasher is of course the trump card, so would a Fleetwood Cruiser be Steel Stompy's Smasher? I believe Vintage shops plays it. I'd figure Cruiser or a Smuggler's Copter would be preferred before Lightning Greaves and beat Terminus.

Man of Steel
01-30-2018, 12:15 AM
I`m sorry that i have to say: against miracles its more about your timing and pacing of the match than it is about specific cards.

Factory is your best card. But the most important thing is not to overextend into there sweepers and at the same time keep up the preasure. This matchup often comes down to "who is the better player"

Blacksummer
01-30-2018, 02:43 AM
I`m sorry that i have to say: against miracles its more about your timing and pacing of the match than it is about specific cards.

Factory is your best card. But the most important thing is not to overextend into there sweepers and at the same time keep up the preasure. This matchup often comes down to "who is the better player"

Guess that means with more practice, it can be done. Would you consider it to be a unfavorable matchup? On paper, it seems with 4xthorns + Lodestone + chalice, it might be sufficient disruption, but after sideboard with disenchants coming in and back to basics, it seems pretty tough to keep ahead, and keep pressure up.

Will try again tonight and keep the "not to overextend" thought in my mind. Any tips on what sideboard options and if you would prefer to go aggro or pace it out?
(I would like to think that keeping a hand with chalice but not going T1 chalice for 1 would be the right way, putting creatures down and getting them to use their fow/counters before locking up with chalice) <===something along this line of play ?

Thank you in advance !!!

Man of Steel
01-30-2018, 08:53 AM
Guess that means with more practice, it can be done. Would you consider it to be a unfavorable matchup? On paper, it seems with 4xthorns + Lodestone + chalice, it might be sufficient disruption, but after sideboard with disenchants coming in and back to basics, it seems pretty tough to keep ahead, and keep pressure up.

Will try again tonight and keep the "not to overextend" thought in my mind. Any tips on what sideboard options and if you would prefer to go aggro or pace it out?
(I would like to think that keeping a hand with chalice but not going T1 chalice for 1 would be the right way, putting creatures down and getting them to use their fow/counters before locking up with chalice) <===something along this line of play ?

Thank you in advance !!!

This Matchup is a war over resources. You can board out some number of petals and of course the walkers. Don`t board out any thorns or golems. You need to disrupt their efficiency. Make all your cards matter and protect your factories as much as possible. This one of the matchups where you can take a slower approach to the game to maximize the effect of your cards

korstructure
01-30-2018, 11:37 AM
Curious what our worst matchups are in your opinion.

What would keep this deck from immediately becoming the best deck in the format? (Given sufficient player skill and meta representation)

And what's our matchup like against "best deck" grixis delver?


I`m sorry that i have to say: against miracles its more about your timing and pacing of the match than it is about specific cards.

Factory is your best card. But the most important thing is not to overextend into there sweepers and at the same time keep up the preasure. This matchup often comes down to "who is the better player"

Dice_Box
01-30-2018, 11:47 AM
Worst Match is Lands. I lent out Lands when I played this last week. Even someone unskilled with the deck shot me full of holes. Wasteland and GQ into Tabernacle is hard to answer.

Qweerios
01-30-2018, 11:58 AM
Also, if this deck becomes DtB, it will be easy for oher decks to adapt with SB cards. There are a lot of cards out there that severely cripple this deck that are simply not mainstream yet.

Off the top of my head I think Nic Fit with Explorer and Deed would give this deck trouble.

mistercakes
01-30-2018, 12:07 PM
If null rod saw any play, it would be a major problem for this deck.

Hedronic
01-31-2018, 05:44 AM
This could happen, but I think it's too early to discuss possible answers to sideboard hate right now.
In case the deck gets played enough and is seen as a threat worth to be dealt with, we need to see how heavy the other decks will sideboard against it and what cards will they use.

Blacksummer
01-31-2018, 10:38 AM
This Matchup is a war over resources. You can board out some number of petals and of course the walkers. Don`t board out any thorns or golems. You need to disrupt their efficiency. Make all your cards matter and protect your factories as much as possible. This one of the matchups where you can take a slower approach to the game to maximize the effect of your cards

Thank you Man of Steel. Has quite a number of practice games with my friend's Miracles, key is to put pressure while not committing too much to the board, found that even hitting with 1dmg using single skirge behind a bridge can do the trick.
And yes, factories are indeed MVPs, putting so much pressure on opponent !!!

Do keep us updated on your progress and all the best on your future games !!!

:smile:

NormalGuy
01-31-2018, 08:59 PM
Worst Match is Lands. I lent out Lands when I played this last week. Even someone unskilled with the deck shot me full of holes. Wasteland and GQ into Tabernacle is hard to answer.

Maybe Blood Sun would be a viable answer to Lands. With the opals petals it might be cast-able.

Hedronic
02-01-2018, 10:22 AM
The second part of our sideboard guide is up!

You find it right here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6QLuNHE4zA

Big shouts out to Man of Steel for joining me again on the show and sharing his recommendations for the following matchups: Sneak and Show, Burn and Reanimator (BR/UB).

Blacksummer
02-01-2018, 11:33 AM
The second part of our sideboard guide is up!

You find it right here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6QLuNHE4zA

Big shouts out to Man of Steel for joining me again on the show and sharing his recommendations for the following matchups: Sneak and Show, Burn and Reanimator (BR/UB).

Awesome series !!! Lots of insights into different match-ups and sideboard thoughts. Please come back for 3rd series !!! :laugh::laugh::laugh:

Eldariel
02-01-2018, 11:43 AM
Maybe Blood Sun would be a viable answer to Lands. With the opals petals it might be cast-able.

If you want a silver bullet for a bad match-up, you really need for it to be easily castable. Otherwise you need to mull for both, the silver bullet and the mana to cast it which decreases your chances of actually winning with it sharply. Some oldschool land hate that might be interesting includes Tsabo's Web, though that might not be powerful enough (hits Ports, Mazes, Wastes, GQ, Cycle lands, Thespian's Stage, manlands, Academy Ruins vs. your manlands and Wastes). However, at 2 mana cantripping artifact, it's hard to imagine a better fit for the deck's main strategy (but it does hit a number of our own lands too, most saliently the manlands and Inventors' Fair - Wastelands you can always just use when you play them). You can always EOT sac it to your Ravager when you want to untap your own stuff.

McMasterJ
02-01-2018, 03:54 PM
The second part of our sideboard guide is up!

You find it right here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6QLuNHE4zA

Big shouts out to Man of Steel for joining me again on the show and sharing his recommendations for the following matchups: Sneak and Show, Burn and Reanimator (BR/UB).

Thank you Hedronic and Man of Steel for the video - great content. I started playing Steel Stompy for 2 weeks, love it.

Hedronic
02-01-2018, 04:45 PM
Thank you Hedronic and Man of Steel for the video - great content. I started playing Steel Stompy for 2 weeks, love it.

Happy to hear it!

pocari79
02-05-2018, 11:08 AM
Went to a tournament this past Saturday with the exact list that got 2nd at MKM. Ended up going 2-2-1. Won against Dredge and g/w midrange homebrew. Lost against Burn twice and drew against Pox.

Some thoughts/questions after playing the deck for the first time.

When I was playing against Burn, I had an opening hand of Ancient Tomb, Wasteland, Petal, Chalice, Vault Skirge, x, x. I wasn't too sure on how aggressive I should play this hand as you can play Tomb, Petal, Play Chalice on 1 (lose 2 life) then sac petal and cast Vault Skirge (lose 2 life) so you've already lost 4 life. Or I could have delayed on playing the Vault Skirge on turn 2 and not pay the life loss on the skirge. Just wondering which play would have been better in this matchup.

Hangarback felt really mediocre whenever I drew it. Even when I paid 4 mana for it, it still felt bad as a 2/2. I feel like if I'm always going to play this for 4 or more mana, I'd want something like a Lodestone Golem instead. Sure, Hangarback has synergy with arcbound ravager and overseer but I feel like this deck needs a few more creatures that are harder to kill that also has disruption.

Also, are there no worthy 3 drops that can be played in this deck? I had multiple games where I have three mana in play but all I have are 2 drops in hand so I couldn't make two plays in a turn. Or have people tried them and it didn't work out?

Felt like I misplayed a bunch when I had ravagers out and I wasn't too sure on when to aggressively sacrifice things to grow the ravager.

Is there anything we can do against someone who plays a chalice on 2 against the deck other than having a ratchet bomb in play already? Chalice on 2 pretty much bricks the entire deck.... My pox opponent could have done this to lock me out but I guess he didn't see it or know the deck well enough.

I had this situation come up a couple of times where the only creature I had in play was a Steel Overseer, I had no other creatures in my hand and my opponent had no creatures in play. I was wondering how many times would you pump it up and then start to attack with it? I kind of waffled between having it as a 2/2 or a 3/3 before starting to attack with it but what do you guys think?

ksesler
02-05-2018, 11:40 AM
For the 2 games you lost to burn, did you use the sideboard plan Amadeus recommends? (+2 Spellskite, +2 Ratchet Bomb + SOFI (Pro Red), -4 Revoker, -1 Ancient Tomb)
Also, were you able to get chalice for one out on the burn player?

I know there is a version out there that plays 2 Vault of Whispers (artifact and give more reliable source of black so don't lose the 2 life to pay Vault Skirge).

Keith


Went to a tournament this past Saturday with the exact list that got 2nd at MKM. Ended up going 2-2-1. Won against Dredge and g/w midrange homebrew. Lost against Burn twice and drew against Pox.

Some thoughts/questions after playing the deck for the first time.

When I was playing against Burn, I had an opening hand of Ancient Tomb, Wasteland, Petal, Chalice, Vault Skirge, x, x. I wasn't too sure on how aggressive I should play this hand as you can play Tomb, Petal, Play Chalice on 1 (lose 2 life) then sac petal and cast Vault Skirge (lose 2 life) so you've already lost 4 life. Or I could have delayed on playing the Vault Skirge on turn 2 and not pay the life loss on the skirge. Just wondering which play would have been better in this matchup.

Hangarback felt really mediocre whenever I drew it. Even when I paid 4 mana for it, it still felt bad as a 2/2. I feel like if I'm always going to play this for 4 or more mana, I'd want something like a Lodestone Golem instead. Sure, Hangarback has synergy with arcbound ravager and overseer but I feel like this deck needs a few more creatures that are harder to kill that also has disruption.

Also, are there no worthy 3 drops that can be played in this deck? I had multiple games where I have three mana in play but all I have are 2 drops in hand so I couldn't make two plays in a turn. Or have people tried them and it didn't work out?

Felt like I misplayed a bunch when I had ravagers out and I wasn't too sure on when to aggressively sacrifice things to grow the ravager.

Is there anything we can do against someone who plays a chalice on 2 against the deck other than having a ratchet bomb in play already? Chalice on 2 pretty much bricks the entire deck.... My pox opponent could have done this to lock me out but I guess he didn't see it or know the deck well enough.

I had this situation come up a couple of times where the only creature I had in play was a Steel Overseer, I had no other creatures in my hand and my opponent had no creatures in play. I was wondering how many times would you pump it up and then start to attack with it? I kind of waffled between having it as a 2/2 or a 3/3 before starting to attack with it but what do you guys think?

pocari79
02-05-2018, 12:14 PM
For the 2 games you lost to burn, did you use the sideboard plan Amadeus recommends? (+2 Spellskite, +2 Ratchet Bomb + SOFI (Pro Red), -4 Revoker, -1 Ancient Tomb)
Also, were you able to get chalice for one out on the burn player?

I know there is a version out there that plays 2 Vault of Whispers (artifact and give more reliable source of black so don't lose the 2 life to pay Vault Skirge).

Keith

Yes I used his sideboard plans. I even had Chalice on 1 and thorn in play in one game and lost that one because they drew no 1cc spells, was mana flooded and negated my lifegain with turn 4 sulfuric vortex. But that's something I can't control so I'd rather focus on the best play that I could make in the matchup.

ksesler
02-05-2018, 02:44 PM
As for the 3 drop you are looking for, Foundry Inspector might do the trick. The Vintage equivalent of this deck uses 4 Foundry Inspectors, so maybe 2 would work here.
Keith


Yes I used his sideboard plans. I even had Chalice on 1 and thorn in play in one game and lost that one because they drew no 1cc spells, was mana flooded and negated my lifegain with turn 4 sulfuric vortex. But that's something I can't control so I'd rather focus on the best play that I could make in the matchup.

vnayin
02-05-2018, 03:19 PM
I tried foundry inspector in my original build of the deck, but didn't really like it, its really only good on turns 1 or 2, and after that is just not a great draw. The lack of 3 drops is one of the reasons I like more hangarbacks in my build. The pump ability is a nice mana sink, so I'll often prioritize leading with hangarback turn 1 so on turn 2 I can play a 2 drop + pump. Also why I like playing artifact lands, as it increases the chance of turn 2 4 mana with mox opal.

Man of Steel
02-06-2018, 04:19 AM
On Saturday i played a local Tournament with my deck and went 3-2

the list was -1 Thorn, - 1 Sofi, -1 Skirge, + 1 Golem, + 1 Walker, + 1 Ghost Quarter

I lost my 2 Rounds because of the 3rd Golem instead of the Thorn. So i will go back to playing 2 golem and 4 thorn. Cutting the sofi in the main for walker and the skirge for a land feels right, but i cannot confirm that based on a 5 round tournament

The only thing i can say difinetly is that 4 thorn are a necessary evil. I will test the copter again because i feel like itis in a good spot at the moment

To answer to question before it will pop up: the third golem had an other language than the other two:tongue:

McMasterJ
02-07-2018, 02:37 AM
I brought Steel Stompy to my weekly legacy event again. I did 3-1 (conceded to a draw) last week, and 3-1 again this week. Last week I was on Man of Steel list, switching the main SoFi for a Jitte. This week, I tried one more Lodestone over a Revoker.

Round 1 (win 2-1): Monoblack (?) Reanimator.
I kept an okay hand, but I first thought my opponent was on Eldrazi (I knew him for playing that deck). I almost had the game, by playing an hangarback walker + Arcbound ravager, creating some 1/1 thopter to block Griselbrand and sac before damage - but he manages to Unmask my hangarback before I can play it. Game 2 and 3: leyline of the void, bridge, karakas and/or chalice of the void. I followed Man of Steel sideboard guide for the matchup.

Round 2 (win 2-1): The Gate.
I don't exactly remember how the match up went, but it's the second time I face the deck. I don't think it's an easy matchup, since there is a lot of removal coming from opponent side. Hangarback Walker is pretty good here to protect from Edict effect (LotV, Gatekeeper...) by creating multiple thopter.

Round 3 (win 2-0): Steel Stompy, mirror match.
The word is out. Steel Stompy is real. I had a pretty explosive game 1 hand, on the play. For game 2, I took out 4xThorn, 4xChalice. Brought in 2xRatchet Bomb, 2xSpellskite (redirect Modular Trigger from Arcbound ravager), 2xSpyglass, 1xSoFi, 1xEnsnaring Bridge. I'm really not sure about the sideboard plan, I think Thorn are pretty bad, and Chalice on 0 might be fine on the play, but not really on the draw. In the end, I think the mirror is about the most explosive hand possible - I had 2 Steel overseer, Hangarback, Skirge and Ravager on the board by turn 4. Made a bunch of thopter EoT and activated Steel Overseer twice for the win.

Round 4 (lost 0-2): Deadguy Ale.
I lost game 1 to my opponent Jitte connecting after getting mine vindicated, and triple wastelanded. Game 2 I mull to 5, not having any lock piece or sol land in any opening hand. Nothing much more to say for now on this matchup.

Once again, the deck felt pretty strong. I did not like the third Lodestone, so I will move back to the fourth Revoker. Haven't really faced blue deck lately, so the maindeck Jitte is really efficient and lead to a lot of explosiveness (play and equip in the same turn). I could also totally see cutting the maindeck equipment for another Hangarback Walker, the card is insane and I almost always want to find one.

Dice_Box
02-07-2018, 03:06 AM
Has anyone else tried Scooter? When I have played with this I have always found that card to be fantastic.

gkraigher
02-07-2018, 11:54 AM
Iíve been playing this list for 2.5 years. Have gone through colorless versions and black versions, it is my opinion the black versions with the abyss is the more powerful version of the list, since the abyss swings the show and tell matchup in your favor. Black also fixes the True-Name Nemisis problem. Iíll admit the colorless versions probably have a leg up in the match vs the black ones.

Anyway, Iíve played this list before Walking Ballista and Scrap Trawler were printed. I have no idea how I am still the only played to recognize how great scrap trawler is in the list, since it combos with ravaged and constantly brings back lands, opals, chalice of the void, and walking ballista.

I donít see the point of thorn of amethyst in the list at all. It doesnít do anything IMO.

Blinkmoth Nexus is the best man land to run, since it can trade with Delver. Mishraís Factory is probably #2. Iíve sleeved up Inkmoth nexus a lot, and Iíve decided I will never sleeve it up again.

Sincerely,
Vintage Greg


Land (22)
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Blinkmoth Nexus
4x City of Traitors
1x Karakas
1x Swamp
4x Vault of Whispers
4x Wasteland

Sorcery (2)
2x Toxic Deluge

Enchantment (4)
4x The Abyss

Creature (22)
4x Arcbound Ravager
4x Lodestone Golem
2x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Scrap Trawler
4x Steel Overseer
4x Walking Ballista

Artifact (10)
4x Chalice of the Void
2x Mox Diamond
3x Mox Opal
1x Sorcerous Spyglass


Sideboard (15)
1x Coercive Portal
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Diabolic Edict
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Sorcerous Spyglass
2x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Warping Wail


If you have any questions about any card feel free to ask. Even cards not in the list. Iíve played just about everything in my journey to build this list. Winter Orb, Ankh Of Mishra, Ratchet Bomb, Ensnaring Bridge, Cavern Of Souls, Inventorís Fair, Vault Skirge, Cranial Plating, Inkmoth Nexus, Mishraís Factory, etc.


THhe only real difference in design between this and the colorless list is Thorn Of Amethyst vs the Abyss. Which makes you stronger against the Combo matchup (which you will already win). The Abyss is an autowin against some decks.

I really donít care what other people call the list, since I invented it, and can show you tournament deck lists proving Iíve played his list longer than you, the deck is called ďthe Abyss Affinity.Ē

Edit: on second thought, Iím not sure the colorless list is actually favored. Post sideboard, Iíd be:

-4 the Abyss
-4 chalice of the void
-1 Sorcerous spyglass

+1 coercive portal
+1 crucible of worlds
+3 warping wail
+1 diabolic edict
+1 umezawaís Jitte
+2 Spine of ish sah

ksesler
02-07-2018, 01:24 PM
Vintage Greg:
I used to play Abyss Artifact decks back in the mid 1990's when Legends came out
I don't recall ever playing more than 3 in a deck, however.

I assumed that The Abyss was too slow in today's environment.
I am intrigued by your list, just because The Abyss was a big favorite of mine 20+ years ago, and will take a hard look at any deck that has it that proves viable in real life.

How strong is the Legacy community where you play?
Do you have any type of sideboard guide to go with this deck?
Thanks.
Keith


Iíve been playing this list for 2.5 years. Have gone through colorless versions and black versions, it is my opinion the black versions with the abyss is the more powerful version of the list, since the abyss swings the show and tell matchup in your favor. Black also fixes the True-Name Nemisis problem. Iíll admit the colorless versions probably have a leg up in the match vs the black ones.

Anyway, Iíve played this list before Walking Ballista and Scrap Trawler were printed. I have no idea how I am still the only played to recognize how great scrap trawler is in the list, since it combos with ravaged and constantly brings back lands, opals, chalice of the void, and walking ballista.

I donít see the point of thorn of amethyst in the list at all. It doesnít do anything IMO.

Blinkmoth Nexus is the best man land to run, since it can trade with Delver. Mishraís Factory is probably #2. Iíve sleeved up Inkmoth nexus a lot, and Iíve decided I will never sleeve it up again.

Sincerely,
Vintage Greg


Land (22)
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Blinkmoth Nexus
4x City of Traitors
1x Karakas
1x Swamp
4x Vault of Whispers
4x Wasteland

Sorcery (2)
2x Toxic Deluge

Enchantment (4)
4x The Abyss

Creature (22)
4x Arcbound Ravager
4x Lodestone Golem
2x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Scrap Trawler
4x Steel Overseer
4x Walking Ballista

Artifact (10)
4x Chalice of the Void
2x Mox Diamond
3x Mox Opal
1x Sorcerous Spyglass


Sideboard (15)
1x Coercive Portal
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Diabolic Edict
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Sorcerous Spyglass
2x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Warping Wail


If you have any questions about any card feel free to ask. Even cards not in the list. Iíve played just about everything in my journey to build this list. Winter Orb, Ankh Of Mishra, Ratchet Bomb, Ensnaring Bridge, Cavern Of Souls, Inventorís Fair, Vault Skirge, Cranial Plating, Inkmoth Nexus, Mishraís Factory, etc.


THhe only real difference in design between this and the colorless list is Thorn Of Amethyst vs the Abyss. Which makes you stronger against the Combo matchup (which you will already win). The Abyss is an autowin against some decks.

I really donít care what other people call the list, since I invented it, and can show you tournament deck lists proving Iíve played his list longer than you, the deck is called ďthe Abyss Affinity.Ē

Edit: on second thought, Iím not sure the colorless list is actually favored. Post sideboard, Iíd be:

-4 the Abyss
-4 chalice of the void
-1 Sorcerous spyglass

+1 coercive portal
+1 crucible of worlds
+3 warping wail
+1 diabolic edict
+1 umezawaís Jitte
+2 Spine of ish sah

gkraigher
02-07-2018, 01:34 PM
I live in Michigan and the Legaxy community is strong. I also travel back to Atlanta all the time and play with those guys down there as well.

It would be better if you gave me a short list of decks you would want a cheat sheet to board on. There are quite a few legacy lists out that and each is slightly different.

ksesler
02-07-2018, 02:06 PM
I am pleased to hear you are a Michigander.
I grew up in Michigan, and was living in Southgate playing Type 1 until I moved to Phoenix in 1997.
There is quite a bit of Lands, Turbo Depths, Grixis Delver, TES, and Czech Pile here.
So, knowing that not everyone runs the exact same lists, generic sideboard advice on these archetypes would be great.
Thanks!
Keith


I live in Michigan and the Legaxy community is strong. I also travel back to Atlanta all the time and play with those guys down there as well.

It would be better if you gave me a short list of decks you would want a cheat sheet to board on. There are quite a few legacy lists out that and each is slightly different.

gkraigher
02-07-2018, 02:41 PM
There is quite a bit of Lands, Turbo Depths, Grixis Delver, TES, and Czech Pile here.
Keith

Lands is one of the tougher matchups out there. I think the actual toughest is Mono Red prison with Fiery Confluence. But lands is still difficult. Thankfully they recently printed sorcerous spyglass, which allows you to play both Chalice and Pithing Needle now. The 2 CC is the most relevant part of Spyglass.

IN:
1x Coercive Portal
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Diabolic Edict
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Sorcerous Spyglass

OUT:
4x the abyss (although I have boarded one back in before to kill Tireless Trackers in a Game 3 that I won. I don't know if my opponent sideboarded correctly to be honest.
2x toxic deluge
1x lodestone golem

If you find them switching to the tireless tracker or some other creature package, lodestone golem is the card that gets cut. It costs the most mana, so it is hard to cast against them, and it is just as easily maze of ith'ed as any other creature would be. The one upside it does have is the ability to survive a punishing fire, while making them pay more for them.

This matchup post board is all about trying to get a leyline of the void, so aggressively muligan for it. There are other servicable hands, and anything with spyglass and mana should probably also be kept.

Crucible and Coercive Portal are very good cards in this matchup. You could debatably play warping wail over the remaining 3 lodestone golems as well to counter Gamble and Life from the Loam, but generally I would rather have the upside of still playing Lodestone Golem and being aggressive than holding back a counterspell that doesn't do a whole lot. If they play some sort of wacky build with more sorceries, thenit becomes a better option.

Vs. Turbo Depths

-2 Toxic Deluge
-4 the abyss

1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Sorcerous Spyglass
3x Warping Wail

depending on how aggressive the opponents decklist is, you could debatably put in a coercive portal and sub out a scrap trawler on the play, or a lodestone golem on the draw. But I think the above sideboarding choices make the most sense.

Crucible of Worlds and Blinkmoth Nexus give you an endless string of blockers.

Grixis Delver:

-1 sorcerous spyglass
+1 umezawa's jitte

The deck has been optimized to beat delver lists by playing many cards like the abyss #3 and #4, as well as both toxic deluges main deck.

TES:
Chalice, Lodestone Golem, and Phyrexian Revoker are all amazing main deck cards against TES. From the sideboard, Warping Wail is Great. The abyss obviously does nothing.

-4 the abyss
+3 warping wail

You can look at removing the toxic deluges from the main deck, or you can keep them in as an out to an empty the warrens. The problem is there are not a lot of good sideboarding options left to board in. So the next best card is Sorcerous Spyglass, just to get information and maybe hit a fetchland (OR TWO OR THREE!).

+1 sorcerous spyglass

Obviously, if the storm deck tries to interact with their graveyard, then Leyline of the Void is simply crushing. I have had Leyline, Chalice 0, and Chalice 1 on a board that my opponent let me know was an unwinnable game state for him.

Vs. Checkpile
I must confess I haven't actually played this matchup.

Baleful Strix sure makes the abyss look bad, but you have walking balistas to clear the path for your other creatures. I would obviously board in Jitte. I'm looking at the warping wails and thinking they might actually be good. Night's Whisper, Painful Truths, and Ponder can also get countered by them. It also exiles SnapcasterMage, Deathrite Shaman, and baleful Strip. Wail has 4 abilities on the card, as generating a mana is another ability. I'd cut down the number of the abyss from 4 to probably 2 or 1. cut spyglass, although its debatable you should find a way to play all 3 spyglass. Since I would play the warping wails to kill cards like deathrite shaman, I think you can board in crucible of worlds and try to wasteland lock that 4 color list.

So I think I would board like this:
-3 the abyss
-1 sorcerous spyglass
-1 mox opal

+3 warping wail
+1 crucible of worlds
+1 umezawa's jitte

It's possible that this sideboarding isn't right, and that playing sorcerous spyglass may be the better route.


Man, I sure cut the Abyss a lot....it still wins so many matchups, and you will be happy to see it game 1 vs. Death and Taxes, Delver decks, Jund, Maverick, Eldrazi, and Show and Tell.

Death and Taxes is actually a very interesting sideboard plan. Since you have so many good cards against them sitting in your board, you actually cut Chalice of the Void main deck against them:

-4 chalice of the void
-1 sorcerous spyglass

1x Coercive Portal
1x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Warping Wail

Many death and taxes players will also board out mother of runes, which happens to be very good vs the abyss. Itís either a mistake on their part, or if you play a great game 1 and concea that information you are in the bonus. Just mention cranial playing or something to give them an excuse to think the black mana is for something other than the abyss. If you plan on casting an Abyss in the game, be sure to kill the mothers with warping wail, toxic deluge, or walking ballista. Itís nearly impossible for them to beat a resolved abyss.

Lastly, whenever you have the abyss in play, instead of saying ďgoĒ or ďpassĒ say ďI would like to advance to your upkeep. When that happens, follow up by saying trigger.Ē Since itís an old card, Iíve also had opponents miss drawing a card off of Leovold with it. Be sure you donít cheat, give them exact information, ďmy trigger, you choose the targetĒ that is honest and potentially confusing to amateur players.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit
02-07-2018, 07:15 PM
If you want a silver bullet for a bad match-up, you really need for it to be easily castable. Otherwise you need to mull for both, the silver bullet and the mana to cast it which decreases your chances of actually winning with it sharply. Some oldschool land hate that might be interesting includes Tsabo's Web, though that might not be powerful enough (hits Ports, Mazes, Wastes, GQ, Cycle lands, Thespian's Stage, manlands, Academy Ruins vs. your manlands and Wastes). However, at 2 mana cantripping artifact, it's hard to imagine a better fit for the deck's main strategy (but it does hit a number of our own lands too, most saliently the manlands and Inventors' Fair - Wastelands you can always just use when you play them). You can always EOT sac it to your Ravager when you want to untap your own stuff.
I think Web is unplayable as allowing one activation is all wasteland, stage, gq, ect need.

ksesler
02-07-2018, 11:33 PM
Wow! This is really a great guide! Very well thought out!
You have inspired me to try The Abyss again.
Just picked up 1 Abyss here in Phoenix, and will order the other 3 online this week.
I should be able to try this by next week, and will let you know how this goes.
Thanks!
Keith



Lands is one of the tougher matchups out there. I think the actual toughest is Mono Red prison with Fiery Confluence. But lands is still difficult. Thankfully they recently printed sorcerous spyglass, which allows you to play both Chalice and Pithing Needle now. The 2 CC is the most relevant part of Spyglass.

IN:
1x Coercive Portal
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Diabolic Edict
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Sorcerous Spyglass

OUT:
4x the abyss (although I have boarded one back in before to kill Tireless Trackers in a Game 3 that I won. I don't know if my opponent sideboarded correctly to be honest.
2x toxic deluge
1x lodestone golem


Lastly, whenever you have the abyss in play, instead of saying ďgoĒ or ďpassĒ say ďI would like to advance to your upkeep. When that happens, follow up by saying trigger.Ē Since itís an old card, Iíve also had opponents miss drawing a card off of Leovold with it. Be sure you donít cheat, give them exact information, ďmy trigger, you choose the targetĒ that is honest and potentially confusing to amateur players.

pocari79
02-20-2018, 11:34 AM
Played the stock man of steel list against this past sat. Went 4-1. Lost to Grixis Delver, beat Grixis Delver, UB reanimator, Sneak/Show and TES.

From the two tournaments (yeah, huge sample size right!!) I've played the deck in, it seems like this deck wins way more games when a Thorn has resolved compared to a Chalice on one and I've had a lot of games where SofI is just stuck in my hand because there are too many Thorn effects and I can't cast it.

For the next tournament, I think I'll try out these changes:
Main:
-1 Sword of Fire and Ice, -1 Phyrexian Revoker, -1 Vault Skirge, -1 Lodestone Golem
+4 Foundry Inspector

Side:
-1 Sword of Fire and Ice
+1 Lodestone Golem

I want to try out the Foundry Inspector as I feel if I ever get the chance to go wide even with just one turn, it'll make a lot of difference as I've had so many hands where I've got 2-3 mana sources but every card in my hand is a 2 drop so the deck is not taking advantage of its low curve.

I'm willing to cut the Revoker and Skirge as there were hands where I've had multiple copies of just the Revokers or Skirges in the opening hand and I had to mull them as the Revokers are really bad blind and in multiple copies with nothing else to support them and the Skirges force you to take too much damage for too little return.

ksesler
02-20-2018, 11:37 AM
I tried the Abyss version gkraigher created in a tournament Sunday.
This version has 4x The Abyss main deck.
I don't know how meaningful the results were though, as I was consistently mulling down to 4 or 5, getting either no land hands or a lone wasteland.
This is statistically improbable with a 22 land deck, and it really skewed the results.

When The Abyss worked, it worked very very well.
The deck in general seems a bit slow.
I think it is also desperately missing some sort of Lifegain. The version Amadeus runs has 6 sources of life gain between Inventor's Fair and the Vault Skirges.

I also added in a Hangarback Walker, which performed quite well. It won me one game against Dragon Stompy and his Stormbreath Dragon, as I ended up with a swarm of flying thopters.

My thought at the moment is to add something old school like Zuran Orb to solve part of the life gain issue.
It is 0 casting cast, would allow me to gain two life off any City of Traitors I had to sacrifice, turns on Mox Opal Sooner, and would keep me alive long enough for the rest of the deck to function better.
In addition, I am going to put the Jitte in Mainboad, instead of sideboard. I can always use the counters gained for life if needed.

I really miss the ability for any library manipulation to smooth out the draws and land better. The deck seems clunky at times.
I am going to continue to play this for awhile, hopefully learning the sequencing a bit better, and tweaking with it a bit too.

Keith

ksesler
02-20-2018, 03:08 PM
Since none of the versions of the deck floated on this thread have any draw engines (except for SOFI in some), and many of your oppenent's do, would there be value in adding Chains of Mephistopheles in the sideboard to level the playing field?

Dice_Box
02-20-2018, 03:11 PM
I run Smugglers Copter. That's a good draw effect.

ksesler
02-20-2018, 05:30 PM
Yes, I agree about the Smugglers Copter. I have been mulling that for a while.
Good call.


I run Smugglers Copter. That's a good draw effect.

The_Spoonerman
02-20-2018, 09:38 PM
Obligatory long time lurker, first time poster, blah blah blah, yada yada yada. Finally broke down and made an account because I've had this idea bouncing around in my head for the better part of a year and the MBH and MKM finishes finally lit a fire under me to get involved.

Here's the version I jammed the last couple of weeks at our weeklies.

Artifakt Schtompi: My List

Maindeck (61)
2 Hangarback Walker
4 Walking Ballista
4 Arcbound Ravager
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Steel Overseer
4 Vault Skirge
3 Lodestone Golem
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Lotus Petal
3 Mox Opal
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Karakas
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
1 Dismember
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void


Thoughts are as follows:
- SoFI was a powerhouse when it hit the battlefield even if it only got in for 1 hit; That said, there were several times it got stranded in my hand so I think I'm less inclined to play 2.
- Vault Skirge, while iffy on paper, actually holds its own in practice and gives some much-needed lifegain. We have a VERY painful manabase.
- The helm in the board was because of the 4 leylines, but I never found myself in a position where I wanted it over any other card, even when boarding in the leylines. Its a definite cut.
- I want some number of foundry inspectors. The card is very powerful in ravager shops in vintage and I'd like to try it out.
- I don't own 4x The Abyss so I think that version is out for me.
- Looter Scooter sounds like a damn good addition to the deck and a good card filtering engine. I definitely want to try that out.

ksesler
02-24-2018, 10:40 PM
Hi:
I have been playtesting with the Abyss version of this deck and have come to the conclusion that 4x The Abyss is too many. I was playtesting with 3, which seemed fine, but am going to try 2, plus one in the sideboard.
There is a big tournament Sunday 2-25 (probably 60 or so people) I will be at, so I would like feedback on the deck I am planning to play, and any suggested changes in the main or side.
This deck is a bit of a combination between the different versions out there.
It has 6 fliers (3 Blinkmoth and 3 Vault Skirge), and 7 when Smuggler's Copter is included.
Smuggler's Copter has been a solid addition to the deck, as it helps filter through the deck, and is solid on attack or defense.
I now have 3 creature sources of life gain, and the Jitte if needed as well.
I added a Thorn of Amethyst to go along with the 3 Lodestone Golem, for extra prison effect.
The 2 Foundry Inspectors help me get creatures out faster.

Questions: I would LOVE to be able to fit in a Ghost Quarter as an extra way to mana screw people, but am not sure what to cut. Advice?
What do you think of the 3 Blinkmoths and 2 Mishra's? I love Mishra's ability to turn into a 3/3 on defense.
Any suggestions on sideboard improvements? I had a Coercive portal in there, but feel the 2 ensnaring bridges are better against Show and Tell and other decks with big creatures (even medium creatures once my hand is depleted).
Is there any reason to move Crucible of Worlds main deck and focus on mana screwing fragile manabases?
Suggestions/advice is highly appreciated.
Thanks!
Keith

Land (22) 4x Ancient Tomb 3x Blinkmoth Nexus 3x City of Traitors 1x Karakas
1x Swamp 4x Vault of Whispers 4x Wasteland 2x Mishraís Factory
Enchantment (2) 2x The Abyss
Instants(1) 1x Warping Wail
Creature (22) 4x Arcbound Ravager 3x Lodestone Golem 1x Phyrexian Revoker 1x Scrap Trawler
4x Steel Overseer 3x Walking Ballista 1 Hangarback Walker 3 Vault Skirge 2 Foundry Inspector

Artifact (13) 4x Chalice of the Void 2x Mox Diamond 3x Mox Opal 1x Sorcerous Spyglass
1x Umezawa's Jitte 1x Smugglerís Copter 1x Thorn of Amethyst

Sideboard (15) 1x SOFI 1x Crucible of Worlds 4x Leyline of the Void 1x The Abyss 2x Ensnaring Bridge 1x Engineered Plague 1x Dread of Night 1x Warping Wail 1Toxic Deluge 1x Diabolic Edict 1x Grafdiggerís Cage

Antarctica
03-05-2018, 08:27 AM
On Sunday I got into finals in tournament with 37 players with the following list:

4 Walking Ballista
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Steel Overseer
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Vault Skirge
3 Mox Opal
4 Lotus Petal
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Karakas
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Inventor's Fair
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:

2 Spellskite
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Ensaring Bridge
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sorceress Spyglasses
2 Ratchet Bomb

Previously I have been playing the original Men of Steel list with 2 hangerbacks and 2 golems, I have Jitte in sideboard instead of second SoFI, because I don't own a second one and I thought Jitte can be very good also and I have seen it played in similar lists. In the tournament morning I decided to add more golems, because they have been so good when I have played this deck. I believe it was a right choice at least for this tournament.
I had played three tournaments with this deck before with results 3-1, 2-2 and 1-3.

Tournament started with 37 players, with following decks:

7 Grixis Delver
2 Miracles
2 UWx Stoneblade
2 BUG Delver
2 Burn
2 DnT
2 BR Animator
2 Moon Stompy
2 Turbo Depths
UR Delver
Junk
Jund
Merfolk
Infect
TES
UB Animator
Grixis Ctrl
Lands
Dark Maverick
Sneaky Show
Steel Stompy
Shardless BUG
RUG Delver

R1 Grixis Delver 2-1
Tournament begins with my first mistake at turn two in the first game :), I play skirge using two mana taking black from opal to save two lifes, and it gets dazed, my reasoning was that I was expecting grindy matchup and thought that 2 life could be valuable, and don't remember that this isn't modern tournament. :) Luckily this stupid move doesn't cost me the game. At the end game of game one he taps out for true-name nemesis, I use inventors sphere at the end of turn to get the sword, and play it to evade TNN to victory.

Second game he has two wastelands. My mana is wasted, and I cannot draw more lands fast enough, easy victory for him.

Third game he mulligans, and has only two mana. Ground gets stuck, but my two skirges are able to beat him as he has ancient grudge, but spellkite absorbs it, and he has no mana to cast it again.
side: Have no memories what I took out. One opal and? + 2 spellkites, jitte.


R2 Grixis Control 2-1
First game I cannot find answer to gurmag, and my guys are way too small to beat a big fish.

Second game I have overseer in play, play golem, use overseer to give counters to protect it from bolt. And golem wins the game.
Later my opponent told he drew bolt right after the golem got into play. :)

Game three he mulligans to five, and cannot find enough lands. In the end game I am blind and count that I can deal only seven damage with ballista, but doesn't realize that I have mana to bumb ballista before combat, so I give him extra turn, but he draws nothing.
side: - opal, - revoker + 2 spellkite (can't remember if there were something else)


R3 RUG Delver 0-2
I know this should be ok matchup for me, however in both games hungry pack of tarmagoyfs kill me and I draw way too many amethysts.
side: -4 revokers + 2 spellkite +2 rached bombs.


R4 Miracles 2-0
In both games golems and thorns ruin his draw spells and I don't know if he had other ways to win in addition to mentors, since I didn't see Jace or angels in the games.

Game two start with T1 chalice, Force of Will, surprise. I play golem and overseer, a turn later, for some mysterious reason I decide to play revoker at the second main after using overseer, he has scalding tarn and two island, he doesn't want to fetch as he knows there is a terminus at top of his deck, but he remembers revoker wrong, and thinks it can name Scalding Tarn. So he forces it and exiles ponder for force. Then he plays terminus, but I have two more creatures in hand, and soon there is again a situation where I know only another terminus topdeck can save him, and I have no answers to that, but luckily no terminus. My golem army with overseer in command win the game.
side: - Opal - Overseer + 2 Sorceress Spyglasses (can't remember if there were something else)
(maybe bridges could have been the way to go against mentors, now I only sideboarded glasses against Jace)


R5 Sneaky Show 1-2
In the First game he plays show and tell with four mana, he gets a grisselbrand and I get revoker naming it, he has grisse agains my army of Metal men. But then comes days biggest misplay by me, I don't realize I can shoot my own skirges with ballista, so he couldn't gain life, and I had won easily. But I don't see it, my opponent doesn't see it. :) I am 100% sure I had realized to sacrifice those to ravager before damage, but walking ballista isn't playing in modern affinity, so I am just blind and stupid and die.

In game two he plays sneack attack from five mana, but realizes that he played wrong land (volcanic island instead of ancient tomb) and has no mana to use sneak attack in the same turn and passes turn. I have no cards in hand, topdeck revoker. He scoops.
Good and quality magic, from both of us. :)

Game three, he playes show and tell with four mana in turn three, omniscience, emrakul, griselbrand and I die thousand times. I had hand with revoker, and thorn, so I didn't mulligate to find a bridge.
side: - Mox opal, - 2 steel overseers, - sword, - 2 skirge
+2 Sorcerious Spyglass, +4 Ensnaring bridges (didn't see any of bridges)
(I was pretty unsure what to take out, I took skirges because I thought that I most likely just die if he has creature in play so evasion is no use)

I am at 10th place before the last round, so a small change to top8 remains.


R6 Burn
I think this was the easiest round in the tournament. I didn't have to use ancient tombs much, and his resources were spent on killing my creatures.

In game one I play sword, and equip it to ravager, he fireblasts the ravager in response sacrificing all his lands. I ask him "do you have mana in your pool?" as he could have taken two red into his pool. He answers "No" and I sacrifice all artefacts except the sword to ravager making it 5/5 and it takes the fireblast, sword equipped and 7/7 ravager hits two times and the game is over.

In game two I look my hand with lands, mox opal, sword, ravager... If I find second two mana producing land I will have turn two equipped ravager, but I don't find more lands in the whole game, but I am not even close to dying, he burns few creatures, but overwhelming wave of metal mens just beat him to dead, game ends with two ballistas, overseer and ravager against two mountains and one card in hand. I think both of us played little badly in this match, but maybe I was too much ahead to optimize things.
side: - mox opal, - revoker, - steel overseer + jitte + 2 spellkites.
2-0

I am 4-2, in the previous big tournament (modern with 117 players), I was at 9th place with resistance difference of 0.006, so I was already assuming that I am at 9th again,
but this time gods of Metal are with me, and I am 8th.


Quarterfinals RUG Delver 2-0
This is the same RUG Delver player that I played against in swiss, he has won the swiss undefeated, 4-0-2 (two IDs).
First game he mulligans to five, dies imitating old grandma voice "everything is so expensive these days" when there is two golems and amethyst in play.

In second game I am losing the race when there are two delvers and flipped one and one normal. I draw ratched bomb, and know this is a way of turning the race, but I also know there is a Force of Will in his hand, since delver flipped from that last turn. I have four mana and opal, So I feed ballista for one to the force, and get the bomb resolved. :) Bomb takes the delvers, and game is turned. Later I have two golems and he has only mongoose with six cards in graveyard, nothing more is needed than just attack, but no, I am stupid, and try to play chalice, it is countered, and now I have to trade golem for mongoose. But luckily, he draws nothing, and remaining golem hits for lethal next turn.
side: -4 revokers + 2 spellkite +2 rached bombs.


Semi-finals: MonoR Stompy 2-0
After quarterfinal game a friend asks me "are you ready to die for metal?" I say "yes" and assume that we have next game. I know he is playing monored stompy, we have both lot of dead cards, however I also know there is lot of fiery confluences and other "Destroy everything" cards in his deck if he gets to four mana.

He starts the game T1 tomb, simian spirit guide to mana, trinisphere. I look my hand, tomb, karakas, wasteland. I play wasteland and waste him. Everyone around us are laughing. He is able to play magus of the moon using another SSG, and my plan is ruined a little since now I have only two mana in hand. But after few rounds I find third and fourth lands and he doesn't. A golem with sword of fire and ice say "This is the end".

Second game he mulligans to six, and starts with tomb, chrome mox I play wasteland, and waste his tomb. Next turn he doesn't have a land, and I play revoker to chrome mox, he takes mana to mana pool uses SSG to play sudden shock to revoker, and in his turn plays another chrome mox, but no lands. He dies to flow of Metal men (including steel overseer) with four drops, sudden shock and volcanic fallout in hand.
side: - 4 chalices, -1 amethyst + 2 Sorcerous Spyglass + 2 Spellkite + Jitte
(not happy with all cards after sideboard, but I felt I had nothing more good on sideboard.)

Finals
We split prizes.
(report in Dark Depths thread :) )

Overall this is very nice deck, thanks to Man of Steel for original list and sideboarding videos. :)

Smea.gol.lum
03-06-2018, 11:21 AM
I'm wondering if Thought-Knot Seer has a home outside of Eldrazi Stompy. If yes then a deck like this could be it, because it has enough colorless sources.
Or is a turn 3 TKS too slow?

mistercakes
03-06-2018, 11:58 AM
Was just mentioning tks in this deck last night. I imagine it's been tested but it's a great card overall. Probably improves some matchups, but just speculation. Can't sac to ravager, doesn't contribute to mox opal, and no benefit from steel. Hard to say! I like the card regardless.

Barachai
03-13-2018, 05:16 PM
For the lands matchup, I've always found Darksteel Citadel to help a lot in MUD; worth an include here? Or are the karakas/inventors' fairs that valuable? Bonus points for artifact synergy!

Pittplayer
03-13-2018, 05:30 PM
Am I a horrible person for wanting to play Phyrexian Scriptures in this?

Mr. Froggy
03-13-2018, 06:16 PM
I just saw a deck like this do pretty good in the last Legacy Challenge.

Congrats guys!

Cave
03-13-2018, 07:33 PM
Am I a horrible person for wanting to play Phyrexian Scriptures in this?
I don't think the brown version of this deck would be capable of constantly producing BB with just 6-7 colored sources. The black/abyss version could want to play this, but I don't know. Never tested it.

The_Spoonerman
03-17-2018, 10:03 PM
For the lands matchup, I've always found Darksteel Citadel to help a lot in MUD; worth an include here? Or are the karakas/inventors' fairs that valuable? Bonus points for artifact synergy!

I haven't had a chance to play with it yet, but my latest attempt has 4 Citadel in it. I've found the utility lands to be rather lackluster.

Cave
03-18-2018, 04:47 PM
I've found the utility lands to be rather lackluster.

Me too. That's why instead of playing citadel I replaced them with 4 Vault of Whispers and slammed a playset of Dark Confidants in the deck.

Antarctica
03-20-2018, 05:24 AM
I just saw a deck like this do pretty good in the last Legacy Challenge.

Congrats guys!

I bought this deck to MODO and I have now played two Legacy Challenges with 4-2 and 5-2 records.

In the first one I played 4 storms matchups and won them all, and lost to 2 UW(r) blades. :)

pocari79
03-26-2018, 09:01 AM
Went to a small tournament this past Saturday and decided to try out some Foundry Inspectors. Here's the list:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Inventor's Fair
2 Karakas
4 Foundry Inspector
4 Steel Overseer
4 Walking Ballista
4 Arcbound Ravager
3 Vault Skirge
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Hangarback Walker
1 Lodestone Golem
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Lotus Petal
3 Mox Opal

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spellskite
2 Sorceror's Spyglass
1 Lodestone Golem

Went 4-0-1 with the draw being an intentional draw.
Beat D&T, UB Smallpox, Dragon Stompy and UBr Tezzerator
Drew against Deadguy Ale.

The Foundry Inspectors performed way above expectations. Whenever I had Inspectors in play, it felt like I was playing a totally different deck and the plays I were making were just making my opponents visibily frustrated. The Inspector makes hands that only have a City and a non-sol land hand a lot more keepable since you can go Turn 1 chalice or thorn, turn 2 Inspector and if you have a petal or a mox, then you can play another two drop and on turn 3, you can keep on playing out your hand on a non-sol land which is really important. Obviously you'd get owned by Wasteland but with or without Inspector, Wasteland would own you regardless. If anyone is still playing this deck, definitely give Inspectors a shot before you decide on switching decks.

Because of how insane the Inspectors felt, I think that I'd want to have a Jitte in the 75 somewhere since you can actually cast your equipment with Thorns in play.

Some highlights from the tournament:
- Dragon Stompy opponent actually realized that Chalice on 2 would lock me out of the game. I was hoping that people wouldn't have seen that.
- Game 3 against Dragon Stompy, I'm trying to stop him from landing turn 1 Blood Moon and I only have a Revoker I can play so I decide to name Simian Spirit Guide instead of Chrome Mox and that just locked him out of the game as he kept a no lander with 4 Spirit Guides in hand.
- Had multiple hands where I was able to play out my hand on turn 2-3 with an Inspector in play and my opponents scooping because I went too wide and they couldn't deal with everything.

Bahra
03-28-2018, 11:20 AM
Hey just popping in to say this deck looks amazing, I've run into it a few times online in legacy leagues. I think I've lost most of the time (me playing D&T of course).

Ravager/Steel Overseer + Hangarback walker/Walking Ballista is just unbeatable for me. Practically. I have effectively 1 turn to deal with it and it feels bad!

Haha, I think I'll even pick up the deck and might stream it next week. It is so cool :laugh:

Cave
03-28-2018, 11:37 AM
Hey just popping in to say this deck looks amazing, I've run into it a few times online in legacy leagues. I think I've lost most of the time (me playing D&T of course).

Ravager/Steel Overseer + Hangarback walker/Walking Ballista is just unbeatable for me. Practically. I have effectively 1 turn to deal with it and it feels bad!

Haha, I think I'll even pick up the deck and might stream it next week. It is so cool :laugh:

With the words of this deck's creator, "it's lategame is maybe 2nd or 3rd best in the whole metagame". Once the deck's got its pieces on the ground, you can do very little to stop it.
I think the general idea for you is to hate on steel overseer as much as possibile, flicker chalice or other stuff with counters whenever you can (G1). Mana denial *can* be good but i wouldn't bet my life on it: the deck works wonders with a couple lands on the table.

Edit: also side out moms.

Bahra
03-28-2018, 07:16 PM
Edit: also side out moms.

eh what? You really edited your post to tell me I need to side out mother of runes vs the colorless deck? :eyebrow:

ratninja
03-31-2018, 06:23 PM
How good is the new Karn in this deck? Seems like a turn 2 Karn would be really strong against the midrange decks and control decks?

Cave
04-01-2018, 05:51 AM
How good is the new Karn in this deck? Seems like a turn 2 Karn would be really strong against the midrange decks and control decks?

The card is relatively cheap and has everything we want.
If you listen to GrŁn's podcast on youtube, he says that his deck could really use some form of card advantage, that's why he chose Sofi instead of Jitte in first place.
And here we have it, card advantage with +1, more card advantage with -1, and a free Master of Etherium token into play for -2. The potential is there, he's nothing to sneeze at.
This is serious businness for just :4:, and I think our deck is candidate #1, because MUD has better Karns for the mana it can generate.

solnox
04-01-2018, 01:21 PM
How often do you keep a hand with City/Mishras and a bunch of 2 drops?

Cave
04-02-2018, 07:53 AM
How often do you keep a hand with City/Mishras and a bunch of 2 drops?
You keep every hand that is reasonably stable mana-wise and can do one the following:

T1 Chalice @1 > T1 Thorn of Amethyst > T1 Steel Overseer

You fold everything else. Knowing your opponent's deck can help you make decisions e.g. i'd keep an hand with city of traitors as my only land in g2 against storm.

solnox
04-02-2018, 05:22 PM
I picked up the deck recently and I'm having trouble vs grixis delver the most. Lot of times, they just daze force the lock piece, waste me and kill me with pyro tokens.

Vicar in a tutu
04-05-2018, 09:27 AM
I'm a bit surprised the new Karn hasn't been talked about here. Admittedly, I haven't played this deck yet, but I'm very interested to try it out. The new Karn seems strong in an artifact-centric, sol-land deck like this.

https://i.redd.it/367u2otqpsp01.png

mistercakes
04-05-2018, 11:37 AM
it was mentioned a few times on this page of the thread control+f . :)

MGB
04-08-2018, 02:26 PM
Seems like the new Karn might be better in a more controllish shell.

Cave
04-08-2018, 04:57 PM
Seems like the new Karn might be better in a more controllish shell.

Questions:
1. Does this come from test?
2. Are you thinking about stax?

mambosong
04-09-2018, 11:13 AM
Went to a small tournament this past Saturday and decided to try out some Foundry Inspectors. Here's the list:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Inventor's Fair
2 Karakas
4 Foundry Inspector
4 Steel Overseer
4 Walking Ballista
4 Arcbound Ravager
3 Vault Skirge
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Hangarback Walker
1 Lodestone Golem
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Lotus Petal
3 Mox Opal

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spellskite
2 Sorceror's Spyglass
1 Lodestone Golem

Went 4-0-1 with the draw being an intentional draw.
Beat D&T, UB Smallpox, Dragon Stompy and UBr Tezzerator
Drew against Deadguy Ale.


Hey I was wondering if there were any updates for this deck? I'm going to give this list a spin later this week! Also, I don't happen to have any spellskites, what decks were they used for?

imaginaryunit
04-09-2018, 12:54 PM
Hi everyone, longtime stalker on this thread, wanted to post my 5-1 report on the Legacy PTQ at GP Seattle (368 players), placing 10th and just missing out on top 8.

==Legacy Shops==

4 Steel Overseer
4 Arcbound Ravager
2 Hangarback Walker
4 Walking Ballista
3 Lodestone Golem
3 Vault Skirge
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Foundry Inspector

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Smuggler's Copter

3 Lotus Petal
3 Mox Opal

4 Ancient Tomb
1 Inventors' Fair
4 City of Traitors
2 Karakas
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
2 Blinkmoth Nexus

SB:

2 Warping Wail
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Leyline of the Void


R1: Burn 2-1
G1&3, I played a CotV on 1 and Thorn. Sided in 2x Thorn and 1 Warping Wail, sided out 3x Revokers for G2&3. Game 2 he gets a T2 Eidolon and Pyrostatic Pillar and wins off of that.

R2: Storm 2-1
G1 My opponent does what Storm does and I die. Side in 2x Warping Wailm 2x Thorn, 2x Ratchet Bomb, 4x LotV; side out 4x Overseer, 2x Hangarback, 3x Vault Skirge, 1 Copter. I take G2,3 with all of that hate, and only miss a trigger when he plays a Ponder. Also got a 3 for 1 whe he played a T1 LED, 2x Lotus Petal and I Ratchet Bomb on my turn for 0.

R3: LED Dredge 2-0
G1 My opponent opens with Breakthrough on 0, discarding his hand. I open with Steel Overseer. Next few turns from him are unremarkable as I start piling on creatures and pumping them. G2 I side in 4x Leyline, 2x Ensnaring Bridge. 'Nuff said.

R4: Miracles 2-1
G1 I play a grindy game of pinging him with Vault Skirge and man lands, playing around Terminus. He never finds a good answer and dies. G2 I side out 3x Lotus Petal. I keep a slower hand and my creatures are all dealt with. He finishes me off with Angel token beats from Entreat on X=2. G3 I play another grindy game with beats from man lands and a Vault Skirge, he surprisingly never finds enough removal to stop the beats.

R5: Manaless Dredge 2-1
G1 He overwhelms me with zombie tokens from his Bridge from Below. G2,3 Side in 4x Leyline, 2x Ensnaring Bridge. 'Nuff said.

R6: Grixis Delver 0-2
G1 I play a Steel Overseer and a Foundry Inspector on a City of Traitors and Karakas. A few turns later bolts the Foundry Inspector, delves in a Gurmag Angler and Wastelands my Karakas, with a Pyromancer in play. I'm not able to recover from the beats. G2 I get Wastelanded twice and am stuck with a bunch of 2 CMC creatures in hand with only a Karakas in play.


Notes
- Foundry Inspector is REALLY good in this deck: I would keep these as a 4-of. >80% of the time playing just 1 allows you to turn the corner real fast after playing a prison piece or two.
- The 75 feels almost perfect and I found over the weekend a single problem that this deck has trouble dealing/racing with early fatties (Angler, Tombstalker, Tarmogoyf). I'd try to find a way to sneak in 1-2 Dismember in the 75.

mambosong
04-09-2018, 03:13 PM
Since none of the versions of the deck floated on this thread have any draw engines (except for SOFI in some), and many of your oppenent's do, would there be value in adding Chains of Mephistopheles in the sideboard to level the playing field?

I've been playing with Sea Gate Wreckage over Karakas MB for the extra draw effect, its actually nuts with Foundry inspector in play, since you can top deck a 2 CMC, play it for 1, and still have mana for an extra draw which can also possibly be played that turn.

I think its a better card than Inventor's fair with regards to CA since it costs less to get some cards out of it, although IF is really good against burn and remedies self imposed damage where racing matters (ie vs delver)

EDIT: another card that I'm going to start testing is Scrap Crawler in the SB or MB. Its a card that can generate some CA and combo's well with ravager. Just having issues finding space to play him.

Cave
04-09-2018, 04:07 PM
I've been playing with Sea Gate Wreckage over Karakas MB for the extra draw effect, its actually nuts with Foundry inspector in play, since you can top deck a 2 CMC, play it for 1, and still have mana for an extra draw which can also possibly be played that turn.

I tested out with confidant for a while, but had to drop golems for it because, huh, well, the sinergy. The list works, it felt ok, sometimes bob was taxing life-wise when i got unlucky but the added consistency was nice. The deck only plays 0-drops and 2 drops (mostly 0-drops with 0.66 average cc) so when you get lucky it's great.
I also had no problems casting the guy as I swapped out karakas'es and fairs for vault of whispers: 10 sources are well enough but you have to be careful about it.
The problem with bob is that he's got little to do with the deck, doesn't really benefit from either steel overseer or arcbound ravager being around, and is not a reliable attacker. So most of the times he ended up sitting there drawing me cards, which is ok because it accelerates lategame which is mostly favorable...but yeah.
I think Karn is gonna be really good in this deck.

list for reference and/or general interest. I never played the deck in a tournament nor I'm playing this anymore btw.


4 Ancient Tombs
4 City of Traitors
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Lotus Petal
3 Mox Opal

4 Steel Overseer
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Dark Confidant
4 Walking Ballista
4 Vault Skirge
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Hangarback Walker

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Umezawa's Jitte


edit: I think the most interesting theorycrafting novelties to discuss for this deck will be:
1. The testing of the new Karn dude as a draw engine and finisher
2. Following the Eldrazi evolution over time, the lowering of maindeck lock pieces in favor of a more consistant aggro plan. The above Seattle list in on 2 thorns. I don't know: Cranial Plating looks devastating here, or maybe just more sofis or jittes.

ReAnimator
04-09-2018, 05:03 PM
Skirge and revoker have felt mediocre to me, so has Fair and sometimes Karakas.

I want to try out multiple Smugglers Copters, as well as Welding Jars and Darksteel Citadel to better turn on Opals.

If we can make Opals into a more consistent turn one mana source then it relieves the pressure on the Sol Lands. Mox Opal is honestly a pretty busted card, and is one of the few that's on the short list for banning in Modern, yet it is very underplayed in Legacy, It's not at it's best in this list since there are no 1 drops, but maybe the solution is to make it more of a turn one threat.

I like the idea of Welding Jar just cause most of the removal being played in the format right now can't get through it. How many games do you just win if Overseer or Ravager live for more than a turn, Jar can help do that.

themtgzealot
04-10-2018, 05:17 AM
Tried this deck online for the first time yesterday and struggled quite alot - any tips or help would be great.

Played the version from the last 5-0 with the 4 Lodestone Golem and Jitte in the SB

Played 3 Grixis Delver decks

I found I often had a turn 1 Thorn or Chalice and then 1 or 2 threats but my clock was way to slow and they just eventually played a gurmag / TNN and killed me.

pocari79
04-10-2018, 08:34 AM
@Reanimator

the skirges and revokers definitely do feel mediocre but necessary. Skirges can be played when you only have 1 land which is nice at times and the lifelink helps offset the damage you take with the ancient tombs. Revokers feel like crap until you manage to manascrew an opponent when you name mana dorks, moxes, spirit guides or even planeswalkers.

Fair seems very innocuous cause usually it's just there to gain 1 life but after a few turns it ends up gaining you a lot of life and I've even had opponents who underestimated it initially and ended up Wastelanding the Fair before my sol lands. The Karakas is just a hedge against lands and reanimator and saves sideboard slots I guess. I did have a couple of games against opponents where I didn't know what they were playing and game 1 I just played turn 1 Karakas and they slumped in their chairs cause they were on Sneak/Show and reanimator so I'll take any cards that gives me free wins on game 1.

Regarding the Mox Opal, I found that I've rarely needed it to generate mana for me on turn 1 as the usual turn 1 play is a Chalice or Thorn to disrupt the opponent and with 8 sol lands plus 3 petals, it's fairly easy to generate 2 mana on turn 1 without using the mox.

Regarding the Smuggler's Copter, I've never tried it myself but I was hesitent to try it because Thorn is a big reason why I win with the deck and the Copter will end up being too high casting with Thorns in play.

ReAnimator
04-10-2018, 09:54 AM
@Reanimator

the skirges and revokers definitely do feel mediocre but necessary. Skirges can be played when you only have 1 land which is nice at times and the lifelink helps offset the damage you take with the ancient tombs. Revokers feel like crap until you manage to manascrew an opponent when you name mana dorks, moxes, spirit guides or even planeswalkers.

Fair seems very innocuous cause usually it's just there to gain 1 life but after a few turns it ends up gaining you a lot of life and I've even had opponents who underestimated it initially and ended up Wastelanding the Fair before my sol lands. The Karakas is just a hedge against lands and reanimator and saves sideboard slots I guess. I did have a couple of games against opponents where I didn't know what they were playing and game 1 I just played turn 1 Karakas and they slumped in their chairs cause they were on Sneak/Show and reanimator so I'll take any cards that gives me free wins on game 1.

Regarding the Mox Opal, I found that I've rarely needed it to generate mana for me on turn 1 as the usual turn 1 play is a Chalice or Thorn to disrupt the opponent and with 8 sol lands plus 3 petals, it's fairly easy to generate 2 mana on turn 1 without using the mox.

Regarding the Smuggler's Copter, I've never tried it myself but I was hesitent to try it because Thorn is a big reason why I win with the deck and the Copter will end up being too high casting with Thorns in play.


Those are fair points, i think Copters stock goes up if you have Foundry Inspectors as they off set the thorns.

Maybe it's just the matches i've played but Skirge takes a while to gain life and 90% of the time you are paying 2 life initially as well, so we are talking 3 turns till it starts gaining life. Sure sometimes you are going to Ravager it or have a Steel Overseer working, but in those situations you really never need the help, as you will be winning any race regardless. I just feel like sure in a vacuum it's a fine card but against most of the tier 1 decks it's not where you want to be. Miracles, 4C, Sneak, Storm, Lands, Reanimator, Red Stompy etc, i don't want any skirges at all. and i'm going to board them out, that's like 70% of the tier one meta decks at least.
I think it's a fine card in general but not very good vs the current meta.

pocari79
04-10-2018, 01:44 PM
Those are fair points, i think Copters stock goes up if you have Foundry Inspectors as they off set the thorns.

Maybe it's just the matches i've played but Skirge takes a while to gain life and 90% of the time you are paying 2 life initially as well, so we are talking 3 turns till it starts gaining life. Sure sometimes you are going to Ravager it or have a Steel Overseer working, but in those situations you really never need the help, as you will be winning any race regardless. I just feel like sure in a vacuum it's a fine card but against most of the tier 1 decks it's not where you want to be. Miracles, 4C, Sneak, Storm, Lands, Reanimator, Red Stompy etc, i don't want any skirges at all. and i'm going to board them out, that's like 70% of the tier one meta decks at least.
I think it's a fine card in general but not very good vs the current meta.

totally agree with your points on the Skirge which is why I did cut it down from 4 to 3. The thing with Skirge is that it facilitates some busted opening hands which I've gotten before. For example, I had a hand where turn 1 I played a sol land, petal, mox, sacced the petal and tap sol land to play Inspector, then was able to pay 2 life for Skirge to turn on metalcraft for mox and then played a steel overseer. Now sure, that's very specific and requires a lot of cards but I think if you are playing this deck, you want to try to maximize the chances of you trying to get these starts. It's just one of those cards where the majority of the time it seems fairly bad but then when it's good it's amazing and I can't seem to find a replacement card that's a threat that I can play for 1 mana without it getting countered by my own chalice on 1.

ReAnimator
04-10-2018, 02:17 PM
totally agree with your points on the Skirge which is why I did cut it down from 4 to 3. The thing with Skirge is that it facilitates some busted opening hands which I've gotten before. For example, I had a hand where turn 1 I played a sol land, petal, mox, sacced the petal and tap sol land to play Inspector, then was able to pay 2 life for Skirge to turn on metalcraft for mox and then played a steel overseer. Now sure, that's very specific and requires a lot of cards but I think if you are playing this deck, you want to try to maximize the chances of you trying to get these starts. It's just one of those cards where the majority of the time it seems fairly bad but then when it's good it's amazing and I can't seem to find a replacement card that's a threat that I can play for 1 mana without it getting countered by my own chalice on 1.

I guess that's really the problem is that there aren't any other castable 1 drops available. In your above scenario a zero cast artifact would have done the same thing, but it wouldn't have had power/toughness. This might be one of those cases where yeah it's not a great card but the synergies and corner cases allow it to be the best option. I'm going to try some configurations with more zero drops without them and see if i ever miss them at all.

mistercakes
04-10-2018, 03:00 PM
you can try arcbound worker. it's not an amazing card, but it has a lot of great synergy with ravager and the rest of the +1+1 counter guys.

Cave
04-10-2018, 03:48 PM
you can try arcbound worker. it's not an amazing card, but it has a lot of great synergy with ravager and the rest of the +1+1 counter guys.

Also great synergy with chalice of the void

mistercakes
04-10-2018, 03:56 PM
Also great synergy with chalice of the void

sometimes you just gotta yolo.

mambosong
04-14-2018, 09:27 AM
Skirge and revoker have felt mediocre to me, so has Fair and sometimes Karakas.

I've had the opposite experience, and it might be dependent on your overall list and mulligan experience. Both Skirge and Fair are great incidental MB cards against the delver match up where their deck's premise is to get just the right amount of damage in the right amount of turns. To be able to gain life every turn (especially with ravager/overseer + skirge) you can out pace them pretty easily after a turn 1 lock piece. That said, Skirge becomes even better if you have Foundry Inspector in play, effectively costing 2 Life to play it on the same turn you play foundry inspector, which then dodges removal because they'll likely try to kill Inspector first.

I agree that Karakas has felt subpar and it's the reason I switched over to sea gate wreckage for grinding potential. ghost quarters can also be great to use instead to attack the player's manabase.

I played with 4x foundry inspectors and 2 lodestone golems, 4 thorns and 4 chalice last week and went 3-1 against (one win being a bye):
1-2 vs Deadguy ale
*Bye*
2-0 vs Dimir Mill
2-0 vs 4c Pile

Highlighted play of the day was against Deadguy Ale. I start on the play with Tomb -> Steel Overseer, they go Scrubland -> DRS. Turn 2 I wasteland their scrubland, play ballista for 1 and tick it up with overseer to kill their DRS, and they concede after my 3rd turn play of 2nd overseer into 2nd ballista.

Sisyphos
04-15-2018, 07:29 AM
My current list:

4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Karakas
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Blinkmoth Nexus

2 Mox Opal
2 Lotus Petal
2 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Smuggler's Copter

4 Walking Ballista
4 Foundry Inspector
4 Steel Overseer
4 Arcbound Ravager
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Hangarback Walker
2 Lodestone Golem

SB: 2 Sorcerous Spyglass
SB: 1 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Hangarback Walker
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 4 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 Spellskite

Board is a bit all over the place and designed for my local meta. Went 3-0-1 yesterday, 2-1 against BUG Death's Shadow, 2-0 against Food Chain, 2-1 against Maverick and ID against Storm for guaranteed first. Played for fun and won pretty easily as expected.


Some notes on individual card choices:
Split Mishra/Blinkmoth: Without Skirges the extra flying blocker is a bit more relevant than the extra power I think.

Karakas: Wins games on its own. TurboDepth is putting up good results lately and is getting more play also. Obviously also great against Reanimator. Also offers utility against SnT, BUG etc.

Cavern of Souls: Every creature in the deck apart from Ravager/Revoker/Golem is a Construct. A lot of blue decks in Legacy means a lot of counterspells in Legacy.

Inventor's Fair: Never did anything for me. The cost to activate is too high unless you are absolutely flooded and the life gain was never relevant in testing.

Split Mox/Mox/Petal: All of the accelerants have in common that the second one is far worse than the first one. Splitting the numbers makes it less likely to draw superfluous extra copies.

Copter/Lodestone: Basically the slots in the deck that I use to try out stuff. The rest of the maindeck is pretty much mandatory I think. Currently I like the card selection/pseudo-haste of Copter and the combination of clock/disruption from Lodestone.

Foundry Inspector: Absolutely nuts. Can easily offer 3+ mana worth of acceleration in one turn. Games were you get two to stick are just bonkers.

Vault Skirge: I can see the good points of the card: ďoneĒ mana spell, flying blocker, lifelink. But in testing for me it just never worked out as well as it sounds on paper. Always was the weakest card, never pulled its weight.


Stuff I want to try after Dominaria is out:
Karn, Scion of Urza: Card advantage that can also provide a clock. It could provide a card that needs to be dealt with, is not a creature itself and neither an artifact. Artifact and/or creature removal is still good against it as it can kill the tokens, but it would give the deck a card that can not just be killed by Decay/Grudge/K.Command. Don't know if it's strong enough but maybe a sideboard option for grindfests.

Traxos, Scourge of Kroog: The deck is currently made up of small synergistic creatures. Depending on the matchup it can be difficult to get the synergies going or the clock you put up can be too slow as you need time too use the synergies. Traxos could be a card that offers a fast clock, more or less ignores tokens/TNN as blockers and is Decay/Bolt proof. Its disadvantage should be negligible in this type of deck. Have my doubts whether its strong enough, but testing will tell.

Voltaic Servant: Another synergistic small creature. Hangarback/Overseer are the most abusable, but even the pseudo vigilance it can provide by untapping an attacker or providing additional mana is sweet. The deck does not play any instants, but has plenty of activated abilities that you can spend the mana on during your opponents turn. Probably the most likely of the three to make the cut.

ReAnimator
04-16-2018, 10:32 AM
@Sisyphos

My list is looking very similar to yours, and i came to a lot of the same conclusions that you did, though i like petals to the max. I was thinking about Blinkmoths over Mishras as well but haven't tried it yet. On paper having that extra evasion and being able to chump big flyers or trade with delvers seems great, especially without Skirge being there. Copters cover a lot of that ground too.

Qernavak
04-18-2018, 01:30 AM
Recently 5-0'd a league (after back to back 4-1's) with Man of Steel. A few months back I tried the deck online, but the metagame was full of maindeck Kholagan's Command. It seems the online meta is a lot more suitable for MoS. My list is a minorly tweaked Ricci's list:

https://i.imgur.com/VVGV1D2.png

Played vs.

R1 BUG control
R2 BUG delver
R3 Esper Stoneblade
R4 Red Stompy
R5 Grixis Delver

The_Spoonerman
04-22-2018, 12:36 PM
My current list:

4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Karakas
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Blinkmoth Nexus

2 Mox Opal
2 Lotus Petal
2 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Smuggler's Copter

4 Walking Ballista
4 Foundry Inspector
4 Steel Overseer
4 Arcbound Ravager
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Hangarback Walker
2 Lodestone Golem

SB: 2 Sorcerous Spyglass
SB: 1 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Hangarback Walker
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 4 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 Spellskite

Board is a bit all over the place and designed for my local meta. Went 3-0-1 yesterday, 2-1 against BUG Death's Shadow, 2-0 against Food Chain, 2-1 against Maverick and ID against Storm for guaranteed first. Played for fun and won pretty easily as expected.


Some notes on individual card choices:
Split Mishra/Blinkmoth: Without Skirges the extra flying blocker is a bit more relevant than the extra power I think.

Karakas: Wins games on its own. TurboDepth is putting up good results lately and is getting more play also. Obviously also great against Reanimator. Also offers utility against SnT, BUG etc.

Cavern of Souls: Every creature in the deck apart from Ravager/Revoker/Golem is a Construct. A lot of blue decks in Legacy means a lot of counterspells in Legacy.

Inventor's Fair: Never did anything for me. The cost to activate is too high unless you are absolutely flooded and the life gain was never relevant in testing.

Split Mox/Mox/Petal: All of the accelerants have in common that the second one is far worse than the first one. Splitting the numbers makes it less likely to draw superfluous extra copies.

Copter/Lodestone: Basically the slots in the deck that I use to try out stuff. The rest of the maindeck is pretty much mandatory I think. Currently I like the card selection/pseudo-haste of Copter and the combination of clock/disruption from Lodestone.

Foundry Inspector: Absolutely nuts. Can easily offer 3+ mana worth of acceleration in one turn. Games were you get two to stick are just bonkers.

Vault Skirge: I can see the good points of the card: ďoneĒ mana spell, flying blocker, lifelink. But in testing for me it just never worked out as well as it sounds on paper. Always was the weakest card, never pulled its weight.


Stuff I want to try after Dominaria is out:
Karn, Scion of Urza: Card advantage that can also provide a clock. It could provide a card that needs to be dealt with, is not a creature itself and neither an artifact. Artifact and/or creature removal is still good against it as it can kill the tokens, but it would give the deck a card that can not just be killed by Decay/Grudge/K.Command. Don't know if it's strong enough but maybe a sideboard option for grindfests.

Traxos, Scourge of Kroog: The deck is currently made up of small synergistic creatures. Depending on the matchup it can be difficult to get the synergies going or the clock you put up can be too slow as you need time too use the synergies. Traxos could be a card that offers a fast clock, more or less ignores tokens/TNN as blockers and is Decay/Bolt proof. Its disadvantage should be negligible in this type of deck. Have my doubts whether its strong enough, but testing will tell.

Voltaic Servant: Another synergistic small creature. Hangarback/Overseer are the most abusable, but even the pseudo vigilance it can provide by untapping an attacker or providing additional mana is sweet. The deck does not play any instants, but has plenty of activated abilities that you can spend the mana on during your opponents turn. Probably the most likely of the three to make the cut.

Just as a general note, have you had any issues with a dead mox diamond with only 21 land?

Dice_Box
04-25-2018, 06:50 AM
I was thinking, at the point after a deck list is put up on screen at a GP for discussion your more than likely an established deck.

quadich
04-26-2018, 06:54 PM
So i have been wondering about the abyss in this deck. I know it has been mentioned earlier, but with the new karn coming up i am curious to hear opinions on the card in the deck/board.
I ask specifically since Karn is another 4 drop and overcrowding the 4 drop slot might not be the correct way going forward. I do however recognize the raw power that the abyss provides and most importantly
the importance of potentially having edict effects in the board. I am loking to test 2 Abyss in board but before i buy them i would be curious how the people that have tested it feel about the card.

Anweeble
04-28-2018, 12:53 AM
I haven't tested Karn at all but I plan on playing at least 2 in my list somehow. After watching alot of videos the winner of the MKM event talks about the deck often wants to either be control or aggro. Karn is a perfect card for drawing cards for control and making large bodied constructs for beating down.

Sisyphos
04-29-2018, 11:00 AM
Legacy Ravager Shops


**As the thread has now been moved to Established, I've written a primer for the deck. I'll leave it in here for the moment to get some feedback, fix some of the formatting and maybe add some stuff, before I open a new thread and ask a mod to close this one.**



Table of Contents
I.) Mana Base (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32181-Steel-Stompy-2-0-Ravager-Shops&p=1043229&viewfull=1#post1043229)
1.) Core
2.) Flexible

II.) Creatures (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32181-Steel-Stompy-2-0-Ravager-Shops&p=1043230&viewfull=1#post1043230)
1.) Core
2.) Flexible
III.) Non-creature Spells (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32181-Steel-Stompy-2-0-Ravager-Shops&p=1043231&viewfull=1#post1043231)
1.) Core
2.) Flexible

IV.) Sideboard (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32181-Steel-Stompy-2-0-Ravager-Shops&p=1043232&viewfull=1#post1043232)
V.) Other Resources
VI.) Sample Lists
VII.) Personal Current List




I.) Mana Base



The deck has one advantage over many other decks playing Chalice of the Void: It is completely colorless, not even including any cards that require colorless mana to cast them in its core. This allows the deck to use every slot spent on a land to cheat out additional utility. You don't need basic lands to protect you against Blood Moon or opposing Wastelands. You don't need to keep in mind the number of colored mana sources needed to cast your colored cards on the turn you want to cast them. Most lists play 20-22 lands, depending on the number of non-land mana acceleration (Mox Opal, Lotus Petal and Mox Diamond) played. The most common number of total mana sources among the lists I found was 27. I have played 21/6 and 22/5 versions and both versions have felt good to me.



1.) Core



4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
In Legacy the namesake card of the Vintage version of the deck, Mishra's Workshop, is Ė correctly Ė banned. These two are the obvious albeit weaker replacements. They allow the deck to cheat on mana costs, speeding up your development to allow landing the crucial piece of disruption on the first turn. Chalice of the Void and Thorn of Amethyst are much stronger on the first turn than on the second. It's no surprise, that both are mainstays of nearly every Legacy deck playing Chalice of the Void and this one is no exception.

But that does not mean that playing them absolves you of thinking. Both have drawbacks. Be aware of them, plan ahead and play accordingly. Of course sometimes you don't have the option and the obvious play is the best (or only) one available to you. But it is a common mistake with Chalice decks to get too locked into the mindset of abusing the advantages provided by these cards recklessly in game play as well as when considering mulligan decisions.

There are a lot of hands that most novice players snap keep that I'd mulligan more often than not. When looking at your opening hand think about how your first turns will play out and consider possible interaction your opponent might have (the later one is of course more relevant after game one). Is the hand dead if the Chalice of the Void gets countered? Will you be manascrewed from the third turn onward because you only have City of Traitors to play the Chalice on the first turn and one additional land? Map out where you want and need to get to based on the other contents of your hand. One of the main advantages of this deck over other decks using Chalice of the Void and City of Traitors is the very low manacurve. Almost every card in the deck can be cast for two mana. This allows you to play your Citys more aggressively, as the risk of getting manascrewed by the drawback or an opposing Wasteland is reduced. Sometimes though it is the correct line to delay your game plan and allow your opponent a turn unhindered by playing another land first and holding City of Traitors until your second turn.

When you are in a damage race: do your calculations carefully. Is it worth to use an Ancient Tomb to cast Walking Ballista or Hangarback Walker with an extra counter or will it swing the race in your opponents' favor?

Some versions of the deck cut the fourth City of Traitors because multiple ones can lead to awkward sequencing. In my opinion, this is wrong. Yes, City of Traitors has the bigger disadvantage of the two cards. But the whole deck is created around the concept of abusing the mana advantage the deck can get by its acceleration. Learning to play with the card to minimize the drawback and possible adjusting the rest of the deck to this effect as well (see my points about the inclusion of Mox Diamonds) are the better ways to go. With time you will find the numbers of games in which you are screwed by drawing multiple City of Traitors to be significantly smaller than the expected value gained by maximizing the mana acceleration offered by playing the maximum number of legal lands providing two colorless mana. And no, Crystal Vein and Scorched Ruin do not count.

4 Wasteland
One of the most played cards in the format and for good reason. In an environment made up of manabases getting greedier and greedier as decks try to include powerful cards from three or four colors, Wasteland is probably the best utility land legal. The deck packs a serious amount of mana disruption between this and the taxing effects of Thorn of Amethyst and Lodestone Golem.

2-4 Mishra's Factory
0-4 Blinkmoth Nexus
0-4 Inkmoth Nexus
I'll address these three together as the reasons to include them are the same for all. They increase the number of creatures you have whilst the still providing a mana source. Additionally, they can dodge sorcery speed interaction/removal, can dodge sweeper effects, reduce the risk of mana flood by giving you something to do later on and they turn into artifact creatures, providing synergy with the core of the creature part of the deck: Arcbound Ravager and Steel Overseer.

Get used to the play patterns offered by them. Don't just all in and activate them every turn every game to deal the maximum amount of damage possible. Be aware of sweepers and other interaction your opponents' deck can include. Don't forget the possibility to activate them before using Steel Overseer to maximize the amount of counters you get.

The most typical lists include four manlands, but I've seen and played lists that include six or even seven of them.

Mishra's Factory is the most common one played, as it provides the most power and toughness whilst also having the most mana efficient pump ability. Nevertheless be aware of the advantages gained and lost by each of the three when building your deck. Mishra's Factory is the weakest against True-Name Nemesis and decks playing lots of creatures to gum up the ground. The other two are less efficient but have flying, which does not only come into play offensively, but also defensively. Blocking flipped Delver of Secrets, Griselbrand, Marit Lage tokens or even Emrakul, The Aeons Torn.

Inkmoth Nexus can allow you to steal games out of nowhere, especially when combined with Arcbound Ravager, or can be useful in some corner cases where normal damage can not kill your opponent. But as its damage does not stack with the other damage you deal and none of your other cards deal infect damage, it is (rightfully) the least played option.



2.) Flexible



0-4 Ghost Quarter


As written above in my comments about Wasteland, the deck includes manadenial as an angle to win. If you choose to do so, you can increase your capabilities to mana screw your opponents even further by adding this. In fact the first version of the deck I built had 4 Wastelands, 4 Ghost Quarters, 4 Lodestone Golems and even Sorcerous Spyglass maindeck with the plan and the reality being that fetchlands and Deathrite Shaman were by far the most commonly chosen options with Sorcerous Spyglass.



0-4 Cavern of Souls
Three of the four core creatures of the deck share the creature type Construct, with only Arcbound Ravager not fitting in. Amongst the other creatures sometimes played, Foundry Inspector and Scrap Trawler are constructs as well.

0-4 Darksteel Citadel
As written above, the deck has a very low mana curve, making it stronger against opposing mana denial than other decks based around Chalice of the Void. If you nonetheless feel the need to have a land that is immune to Wasteland, this one offers the most utility as it still has synergy with Arcbound Ravager and Mox Opal.

0-4 Vault of Whispers/Ancient Den/Tree of Tales/Seat of the Synod/Great Furnace
Should you want to splash a color, these are the among the first options to provide the required colored mana as Ė like Darksteel Citadel Ė they provide additional synergy with Arcbound Ravager and Mox Opal. The only color splash I have seen played or considered so far has been black, but I could see others working as well, especially white. Karakas offers additional white sources that are already played and white offers a lot of cards that the deck can utilize, amongst the common hatebears Ethersworn Canonist especially stands out as it is not only an additional piece of interaction but an artifact creature as well.



0-2 Karakas
There are a lot of legendary creatures currently being played in Legacy. From Griselbrand to Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, from Leovold, Emissary of Trest to Marit Lage tokens. Karakas provides an answer to all of them at a very cheap cost. It is at its strongest against decks like TurboDepths or Reanimator, but also usefull against Death and Taxes, Show and Tell or 4c Leovold. The amount of games the card wins single-handedly are well worth the risk of playing two copies of a land that is legendary itself. Playing a second copy only adds a 1% chance of drawing two in your opener whilst increasing the chance of drawing one in your opener from 11% to 21%.

0-2 Inventors' Fair
This is a card where my personal opinion differs from the consensus that is reflected in most of the lists you can find online.

I can see it's strong points. It provides a form of life gain that is much appreciated by a deck playing Ancient Tomb especially against aggressive decks where games can often come down to damage races. It also allows for late game utility and is a form of flood protection that can allow you to play one or two silver bullets because you have the ability to tutor for them when needed. Most commonly the card is found next to an equipment like Sword of Fire and Ice.

Maybe it's a difference in my playstyle compared to the playstyle of others, but when playing these points have never quite worked out like that for me. I'd constantly find myself in positions where I didn't have enough mana to use the tutor effect or if I did, I'd either be so flooded that tutoring for one relevant card was not enough to turn it around or the pressure put onto me meant that while I could tutor for the card that would allow me to survive, I did not have the mana or time to play it as well.

Much the same for the life gain aspect. Either it was not enough to safe me, or a manland would have allowed me to win the damage race as well, even if only for the ability to chump block. ďGainingĒ five life in one turn from blocking a Gurmag Angler can be more relevant than gaining five life over five turns from Inventors' Fair.

The utility from other cards in these slots has been more relevant for me, but if the card works for you, play it. It works well in the shell and it is supported by the shell, so it is not a wrong card to pick. Whether it is the optimal card to play or not is a different question that at this point of the decks age and development is probably not yet answerable definitively because there is not enough play data to compare versions with and without the card.



0-1 Phyrexian Tower
There have been times, where I have lost games because I couldn't find or resolve a way to sacrifice Hangarback Walker to make tokens. This gives you a card for these situations whilst also providing colored mana for a possible splash or an additional bit of mana acceleration if the need for it outweighs the loss of a creature. Are these advantages worth losing the utility other lands could provide in the slot? In my opinion probably not. The number of games the mentioned advantages come up is probably less than the times you will miss the additional manland.

?-? Zhalfirin Void
New card from Dominaria. So far I haven't gotten around to testing it, but as it can provide card selection for an archetype that is notoriously lacking it, it is something that at least should be considered. Once again, I think you probably lose more by playing this than the added effect is worth.

Sisyphos
04-29-2018, 11:00 AM
II.) Creatures



1.) Core



4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Steel Overseer
4 Walking Ballista
2-4 Hangarback Walker


I try to limit the amount of cards discussed together, but in this case you have to look at the big picture to get the picture. Walking Ballista and Hangarback Walker like +1/+1 counters, Arcbound Ravager and Steel Overseer are great at providing +1/+1 counters. This core is what makes the deck possible. Previous artifact decks in Legacy have always had one of two problems. Either your creatures where cheap but lacked interaction (Affinity) or they were big and provided interaction but cost a ton of mana (MUD). The first is abysmal against removal heavy decks, whilst the second leads to awkward games of losing to yourself because it is easy to get mana screwed or flooded as you need just the right combination of mana and payoff. The core cards for this deck all provide relevant abilities that let you react or interact to things your opponent does, can be cast for two mana and when combined can quickly become bigger than most of the creatures played in the format.


Most of the interactions of the cards should be pretty obvious, but it takes some time getting used to the play patterns to identify the optimal lines. If you suspect that your opponent has a removal spell, think about the order in which you want to activate the abilities so that the counters end up exactly where you want them to be.

Another important point: remember your triggers! Arcbound Ravager and Hangarback Walker lose a lot of their power if you forget their triggers.

Also keep in mind, that even though the deck looks like it doesn't care about its own graveyard, both Arcbound Ravager and Hangarback Walker are quite weak against Leyline of the Void or Rest in Peace. Don't just blindly go all in on either one without remembering the card you didn't care about for the last ten turns.

You can find quite a number of lists that don't include four Hangarback Walkers. Personally I can see cutting one from the maindeck, but I always want four copies in my 75. It provides incredible synergy with Steel Overseer and Arcbound Ravager whilst being a form of card advantage in creature matchups and also against 4c Leovold. In fact against that deck I'd consider the card to be one of your best cards overall. 4c Leovold aims to play a card advantage game by constantly getting two-for-ones. Getting Hangarback Walker up to three counters makes up for multiple two-for-ones by itself. Their only clean answer is bouncing it with Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

Finally get used to doing damage calculations. It takes some time to get a feel for when it is right to pump Hangarback Walker and when to attack, when it is better to get another counter on Hangarback Walker by activating Steel Overseer first and when you'd rather have the additional counter on the Thopter tokens. You can even find yourself in spots where it is correct to not pump Hangarback Walker every opportunity you get, as you might have to rely on trading it with an opposing creature because you want to use the tokens as your win condition or as additional chump blockers over the next turns.



2.) Flexible

2-4 Phyrexian Revoker
Phyrexian Revoker is basically 50% creature and 50% disruption piece. Neither the body nor the ability (pseudo-Needle that cannot hit lands) are really worth two mana in a format as high powered as Legacy. But the combination is your own little Swiss army knife. Its stock increases as the metagame shifts more and more towards a 56 cards plus four Deathrite Shaman metagame, but even decks not playing the obiquitous one drop usually have tagets: Hazoret the Fervent and Chandra, Torch Defiant in Moon Stompy, Lion's Eye Diamond and Lotus Petal in Storm, Aether Vial, Stoneforge Mystic and Equipment in Death and Taxes, Griselbrand and Sneak Attack in Sneak Show, Jace, the Mind Sculptor in Miracles etc. Playing both Arcbound Ravager and Steel Overseer also means that sometimes Phyrexian Revoker can get really big.

0 or 4 Foundry Inspector
With most of the cards that are not automatic four-ofs, you can tweak the numbers a bit to your liking. Not with this one. If you want the effect, you play four, if you don't, you play zero. There is no argument for any other number being correct.

The body itself is nothing to write home about for three mana, making it a rather bad topdeck later on. The ability on the other hand is absurd in this deck. It may seem odd at first glance to play a mana acclerant that costs three mana in a deck that largely is made up of cards costing two mana, but the play pattern of the deck Ė aiming for two mana on the first turn with Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, Lotus Petal, Mox Diamond Ė makes hitting three mana on turn two a very natural sequence that lets you dump your hand on turn three instead of wasting a mana on turn two by casting a two-drop and afterwards being limited on the things you can do.

The amount of advantage you can generate from landing one of these early puts it nearly in the same kill-on-sight-category for your opponent as Arcbound Ravager and Steel Overseer. If you ever manage to stick two, basically all cards in your deck can be played for zero. Even having only one can save you two to three mana per turn, thus allowing you to play multiple spells on each turn until you run out of cards and lets you ignore your Thorn of Amethysts when casting non-creature spells or keep up mana for manlands or Hangarback Walkers. One thing to note about sequencing: Sometimes it's best not to maximize the mana you can save with Foundry Inspector. The best example is Steel Overseer. Steel Overseer into Foundry Inspector is much stronger than the other way around even if it means wasting one mana.

Foundry Inspector also makes the disadvantage of City of Traitors less severe. Leading on City of Traitors to stick disruption on the first turn is more tolerable when you can go ďland, Foundry InspectorĒ on the second turn. Even without another land this gives you the ability to cast spells on turn three. I have been very happy with their inclusion and urge everyone giving them a try when picking up the deck.



0-4 Lodestone Golem
Similar to Phyrexian Revoker, Lodestone Golem combines disruption piece and creature in one slot. The body is much better and gives the deck a much needed creature that threatens significant damage on its own, but still dies to Lightning Bolt and cannot get past Baleful Strix or True-Name Nemesis. The ability does stack very nicely with Thorn of Amethyst. Casting Brainstorm for three or four mana while being attacked by a 5/3 is not the place you want to be in Legacy. How many you play should be a reflection of the amount of combo you are expecting.

0-4 Vault Skirge
Phyrexian mana allows the deck to cast a spell for one mana while having Chalice of the Void out at the same time.

In a deck that is very heavy on even mana costs, it also allows for lines that are more mana efficient because you can more easily spend all your mana on turns where you have odd amounts of mana available.

The body in itself is not overwhelming, but servicable, especially with Arcbound Ravager and Steel Overseer in mind, but the abilities are both quite nice and where much of the value lies. Flying gets it past True-Name Nemesis and enables you to block flying attackers from flipped Delver of Secrets to Marit Lage tokens if you can't get Hangarback Walker to die in time.

Lifelink is also very relevant against aggressive decks or in damage races in general, especially in a deck built around Ancient Tomb.

On paper, it looks really enticing, doesn't it? But just like with Inventors' Fair, my personal experience with it has always felt lackluster. Yes, it can be clutch, but more often than not, it was subpar and easily the weakest card in the deck. For example the point of lifelink being good in damage races. Without an active Steel Overseer or Arcbound Ravager, Vault Skirge in the short term is bad in damage races as it will cost you life to play it more often than not. Even if you don't face the ultimate cringe induced by having to cast Vault Skirge with mana generated from Ancient Tomb. The two damage incurred by casting the card has meant that the lifelink several times was not enough to swing the damage race in my favor. For the point being, I have cut them and so far have not felt the need to put them back in.

0-4 Scrap Trawler
This is probably the card that gets played the least in the flex creature slots. On paper it can provide a form of staying power against decks relying on non-white creature removal, but as it requires the card to be returned to have a smaller converted mana cost and does nothing if it costs the same as the creature dying, it does nothing when Chalice of the Void, Hangarback Walker or Walking Ballista die and Thorn of Amethyst, Arcbound Ravager and Steel Overseer dying only provide you with any card advantage if a card from the first group has died previously. As most opponents will usually kill Arcbound Ravager and Steel Overseer before dealing with Hangarback Walker and Walking Ballista, this severely limits the amout of value you will gain from this card. I tried it and cut it again quite quickly.

?-? Voltaic Servant
Another new card from Dominaria that seems worth a try, but I have not found the time to test it so far. It is broken with Steel Overseer and provides additional utility with Hangarback Walker whilst also untapping mana artifacts and giving one of your creatures pseudo-vigilance. But if you manage to untap with Steel Overseer in play, you are in pretty good shape anyway usually, so I'm doubtful whether this provides enough utility on its own in the other cases to make it worth the slot.

?-? Traxos, Scourge of Kroog
And the final new card from Dominaria that could be worth a look, although I have to admit, that this one is probably a long shot to make the cut. As I pointed out in my comments on Lodestone Golem, the creatures the deck plays are very small on their own. Using Steel Overseer to grow them takes time as does casting Hangarback Walker or Walking Ballista for X>1. Traxos, Scourge of Kroog provides a huge body for the cost, has trample so you can get over True-Name Nemesis or other chump blockers (even against Baleful Strix it is still basically Ball Lightning) and the drawback should be negligible in a deck playing only lands and artifacts. On the other hand, the card does not provide additional synergy with the other parts of the deck and still dies to Fatal Push (albeit only with revolt). Maybe one or two copies between main and board for the matchups where you only want to deal as much damage as possible as fast as possible?

Sisyphos
04-29-2018, 11:00 AM
III.) Non-creature spells



1.) Core



4 Chalice of the Void


The mana curve of the deck makes it obvious, that this is a Chalice of the Void deck. It gives up all the hyper efficient one mana spells legal in Legacy and instead aims to punish decks that play upwards of 20 cards costing one mana. There's really not much more to say about this card. One minor point: People don't value casting it for zero as much as they should. Especially on the draw against Lion's Eye Diamond combo decks. If you don't get to two mana on the first turn, it is often better to deny them their Lotus Petals and Lion's Eye Diamond than giving them their second turn without any disruption. You can also cast it for zero in other machtups to turn on metalcraft for Mox Opal or just to get another damage in through Arcbound Ravager.



3-4 Thorn of Amethyst


Probably the second best piece of disruption available to artifact/creature based decks in Legacy. Paired with Wastelands it can either prevent your opponent from casting spells at all or at least delay them long enough for you to develop your board and kill them. Just be wary of the interaction between Thorn of Amethyst and your own cards. Don't blindly stack multiple Thorn of Amethysts as they make any non-creature card you play yourself much worse when drawn. Also keep the effect in mind when planing your plays. It is very frustrating to find yourself one mana short because you didn't remember to account for your own Thorn of Amethyst. Recently I have experimented with dropping down from the usual four copies to three, moving the fourth to the sideboard for the matchups it is needed for. It drops the percentage to have a disruption piece in your opener from 65% to around 60% though.


2-4 Mox Opal
2-4 Lotus Petals
0-2 Mox Diamond


I'll also discuss these three together. They are the non-land accelerants the deck has available. Each of them has its distinct advantages and disadvantages. Lotus Petal provides mana on the first turn without anything else but the card required, but it is a one time use only. Mox Opal requires fulfilling a condition that makes it usable no earlier than the second turn (barring ridiculous opening hands) but it can be reused as long as the condition is met. Mox Diamond is straight card disadvantage, but if you have the extra land, it can be used on the first turn and reused for the rest of the game.

All three therefor fulfill slightly different roles. Mox Diamond and Lotus Petal increase the number of games where you will hit the crucial amount of two mana on your first turn. Mox Opal usually cannot do that, but provides the better late game.

All three also have in common that the second one of each you draw is usually not the best card to draw ever. The second Mox Opal is basically a Lotus Petal that sometimes grows an Arcbound Ravager, the second Lotus Petal is the same and most of the time in the late game you want reusable mana sources more than one time acceleration. And the second Mox Diamond is either a totally dead card or requires giving your opponent another free two-for-one.

Most decklists play six or seven of these cards with the most common being a split between Mox Opals and Lotus Petals. My personal preference is a 2/2/2 split between all three of them. Yes drawing a Mox Diamond late in the game without having a land to pitch is painful and does come up, but whilst the deck can function and in fact is built to function well at two or three mana, it is actually very rarely flooded. There is just so much to do: activating manlands, Hangarback Walkers, Walking Ballistas and casting the XX-spells for higher numerical values. In fact, I find myself bottlenecked on mana more often than flooded, which is why I prefer the additional continous mana source of Mox Diamond over the additional one shot mana sources provided by playing more Lotus Petals, whilst still retaining (nearly) the same amount of accelerants that can provide mana on the first turn.



2.) Flexible

0-3 Karn, Scion of Urza
The new toy from Dominaria I was most excited about and actually have gotten around to test. So far the verdict is definitively positive. It sits at the top of the mana curve but still at a point that is not too hard to achieve, even when considering Thorn of Amethyst. It gives the deck not only card selection, something decks with Chalice of the Voids have been desperately wanting for a long time, but also another thread that is able to play well against sweeper effects and that is itself not killed by artifact and/or creature removal. Removal is still good against the card as it does not offer a win condition that does not involve attacking with creatures, as for example Jace, the Mind Sculptor does. But much like Gideon, Ally of Zendikar in Death and Taxes, it does not just trade one-for-one with removal, making it very good in grindy matchups whilst still allowing you to close out the game very quickly as the tokens are quite large. Keep in mind that manlands (among other things) allow you to manipulate the size of the token at instant speed. This can throw of the damage math of your opponent and turn a chump block into a trade or even a straight up freebie.

0-2 Smugglers Copter
The other card selection option and probably the best one that was available before the printing of Karn, Scion or Urza. Not only does it provide card selection, it also gives your creatures pseudo-haste and has flying, allowing it to fly over blockers (especially True-Name Nemesis) or block flying attackers, which Ė as has been pointed out multiple times already Ė can be a problem for the deck. On the flip side, it can be dead if you get stuck without a creature.

0-1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Sometimes played as a singleton, most often in lists that also include Inventor's Fair in the mana base to provide for the ability to tutor for the card if needed. The card itself is obviously very very good, if you get it online. But that is exactly the reason why I'm personally not a fan of it. The deck has very little card selection, leaving the probability of drawing a singleton in the first three turns at just 16,67%. This percentage shrinks even further when taking into account the number of games included in this percentage where you don't have the mana to use it (especially relevant with Thorn of Amethyst), where it is too slow to be used (e.g. against fast combo) or where you lack a creature to use it with. Considering the interaction with Inventor's Fair at least lessens the impact of some of these points. You can more reliably find Sword of Fire and Ice in the situations you need it. But this comes at a very steep cost. You need to time walk yourself as the mana cost of Inventor's Fairs' ability makes it very unlikely that you can do anything else on the turn you use the tutoring ability. The amount of mana involved also makes it a late game only option, which in turn makes it significantly worse against True-Name Nemesis decks, because it is not unlikely that a fast True-Name Nemesis backed up by some removal or counters can win the damage race before you get the time to tutor for Sword of Fire and Ice, play, equip and attack with it.

0-1 Umezawa's Jitte
Mostly the same as Sword of Fire and Ice. When choosing between the two, I'd actually give the edge to Umezawa's Jitte, even tough Sword of Fire and Ice is found more often in lists posting good results. Umezawa's Jitte is a turn faster and although Sword of Fire and Ice is better than Umezawa's Jitte against decks playing True-Name Nemesis, there are several decks that basically cannot beat an active Umezawa's Jitte, where as the same can not really be said for Sword of Fire and Ice.

0-4 Sorcerous Spyglass
As already mentioned in my comments on the mana base, Sorcerous Spyglass might not look like it, but in a format where the mana bases are built around fetchlands and Deathrite Shaman, it is actually a very powerful mana denial card if you want to focus on that aspect of the deck. Against the right decks or even against the right opening hand of an opponent, Sorcerous Spyglass on turn one can provide disruption that can surpass that provided by Thorn of Amethyst or even Chalice of the Void. While the later cards are more stronger overall and therefor rightfully played as core cards, depending on your list, it is not outside of the reasonable to play Sorcerous Spyglass maindeck and relegate Thorn of Amethyst to the board as a pure hate card against combo decks.

0-3 The Abyss
Played in the first iteration of the deck that got public attention during the NA Legacy Championship 2017, but has since more or less disappeared. The advantages in the shell are obvious, it is completely one sided continous removal that can win games by itself as some decks are simply dead to it. But its disadvantages are nearly as obvious. It requires a color splash, making color screw a possibility and limiting the amount of utility lands you can play because you have to include enough black sources to cast The Abyss. At four mana it sits at the top of your mana curve which gets worse when you take into account that you want to use your Wastelands and also limits the usefulness of Thorn of Amethyst and Lodestone Golem to the point where the list actually cut Thorn of Amethysts for Sorcerous Spyglass.

0-0 Crucible of Worlds
IT'S A TRAP!!! No seriously, don't play this card or other cards that fall into the same category. When the deck was picking up steam, Crucible of Worlds had some advocates. Just think about locking out opponents with Wasteland or recurring manlands, City of Traitors and lands discarded to Mox Diamond!!

What these arguments have in common is that the situations come up too rarely, fall into the Magical Christmasland type of wishful thinking or provide too little advantage for the cost of including a Crucible of Worlds in the deck.

Crucible of Worlds is played in very few Legacy decks and for specific reasons. Some decks playing Wasteland play Crucible of Worlds, but not all decks playing Wasteland play Crucible of Worlds. That is because Crucible/Wasteland-locks are Ė as the word indicates Ė locks, which makes lock decks like Stax or Lands the correct type of deck to include both. Also take into account that Lands only uses it as a secondary option to support the main lock piece of Life from the Loam and not all Lands list even use Crucible of Worlds.

The reason why Crucible of Worlds is a bad card for this deck, gets even more obvious when looking at Ramunap Excavator. You basically never saw Crucible of Worlds in decks like Maverick or Aggro Loam, because whilst it gives you the possibility of locking someone out of playing, the cost of playing a card that does little to nothing outside of the lock was too high when compared to the probability to drawing a singleton card in a deck with little card selection. Playing Ramunap Excavator is much less of a cost for these decks as it can be searched for by Green Sun's Zenith and if you don't have the lock, it is still a creature that can attack or block.

This deck is not a lock deck. Your disruption can lock your opponent out of the game, but typically Chalice of the Void and Thorn of Amethyst function more like Force of Will and Daze function in Delver decks rather than how Counterbalance/Sensei's Divining Top used to function in Miracles. You want the cards to disrupt the opponent just long and hard enough for you to kill them. You don't want to disrupt your opponent to the point where it does not matter how you win the game, because even a 1/1 without any abilities would do the job. Games like this do happen, but they are not your main game plan.

Sisyphos
04-29-2018, 11:01 AM
IV.) Sideboard



For the sideboard section I will not offer suggested numbers for the cards. Building your sideboard not only regarding the cards you include in it but also their numbers depends too much on the configuration you have settled on for your maindeck and the metagame you are expecting to play against. For some cards the numbers are pretty obvious. Unless your name is Sam Black, you are probably going to play four Leylines if you play Leyline. The sample deck lists in the following section offer some examples on how sideboard configurations can look. There is also an excellent three part video series on sideboarding with the deck on Youtube, I have included links to it among the list of other resources you might want to check out if you want to learn more about the deck below in section V.).

One thing to keep in mind when building a sideboard is: You are playing a deck that uses artifact creatures as your one and only way to win. With a card pool as large as Legacy, there are cards that you will have a hard time against: Null Rod, Hurkyl's Recall, Energy Flux, Rest in Peace/Energy Field etc. Don't go overboard in trying to build a board that has an out to each and every possible scenario. Figuring out the perfect eleven card boarding plan against niche cards like Null Rod and Energy Flux will lose you too much space to efficiently board against the other 99% of the field.

On another note, the deck is not a combo deck as Storm is, but it is a combo deck in the sense that it is built on synergies. It is easy to overboard. Unless you absolutely need all ten cards you want to board in, be cautious of taking out too many creatures for example.



Ensnaring Bridge
As your own creatures are rather small at the start and need time to grow, you need a form of defense against decks that rely on attacking with big creatures to win. You can empty out your own hand pretty easily, especially in a list with Foundry Inspector. And even if you can't empty out you whole hand, it is not difficult to get low enough to cross the threshold where Reality Smasher, Griselbrand, Craterhoof Behemoth (and friends), Emrakul or Marit Lage or even True-Name Nemesis can no longer attack. You can still win by sacrificing Ensnaring Bridge to an Arcbound Ravager once you have enough of a board to alphastrike or use Walking Ballista to shot them a bunch.

Leyline of the Void
Really not much to say here. There are a lot of decks relying on their graveyards running around these days, so you want some form of graveyard hate. Leyline has the obvious disadvantage of forcing you into some difficult mulligan decisions, but it's effect is much more powerful than Faerie Macabre or Tormod's Crypt. Relic of Progenitus and Surgical Extraction are nonstarters in a Chalice of the Void deck for obvious reasons.

Spellskite
Shines against decks that try to overload you with removal or need to remove your disruption pieces to be in the game at all. Also just wrecks Infect. Just don't get greedy with it. When your opponent attacks a one power creature into a Spellskite, take the possibility of Lightning Bolt into account. Sometimes you have to block, but sometimes it is worthwhile to take the damage and protect the Spellskite to make sure that it in turn can protect another artifact.

Ratchet Bomb
Colorless removal options for non-creature permanents are few and far between and this is probably the best one available at the moment. Also doubles as a sweeper against tokens or decks like Elves that rely on multiple permanents with the same casting cost.



Sorcerous Spyglass


A lot of activated abilities are running around in decks at the moment. Planeswalkers, Deathrite Shaman, Rishadan Port, Stoneforge Mystic, Aether Vial, Griselbrand, Sneak Attack, Thespian's Stage, Vampire Hexmage, the list goes on and on. Sorcerous Spyglass is preferred over additional copies of Phyrexian Revoker because some of the cards you want to needle are lands, making the trade off of this not being a creature worth it.



Mindbreak Trap


Hurkyl's Recall is actually quite a common sideboard card in Storm right now. Mindbreak Trap gives you turn zero interaction against fast combo decks and dodges any artifact hate cards that they will have after boarding. At some point adding more and more artifact hate cards will show some diminishing returns and it can be better to diversify your hate a bit.



Warping Wail


A good way to get a lot of utility in one slot. Does a lot of good things, but you pay the price of it not being the best at any of the things it does.



Dismember


Removal for medium big creatures but at a heavy price. You already lose quite a bit of life to Ancient Tomb and (possibly) Vault Skirge. With or without a black splash, your mana artifacts can produce black mana to mitigate the cost somewhat, but so far it hasn't made the cut for me.



Spine of Ish Sah

If your metagame has a lot of Sneak Show in it and you want more/other answers than Ensnaring Bridge. Synergises nicely with Arcbound Ravager to reuse it over and over for additional Show and Tells.



Sword of Fire and Ice/Umezawa's Jitte

Both found in lists that don't have any equipments maindeck and in lists that have. Either to open up the possibilities equipments provide or doubling down for the matchups where you really want the effects. Despite what I have said about the inclusion of an Inventor's Fair/Sword of Fire and Ice package in the maindeck, I have recently started playing an Umezawa's Jitte in the board. I think of it as more of a fifth Walking Ballista than anything else. I even contemplated Serrated Biskelion before a friend of mine was nice enough to tell me not to be stupid.



Toxic Deluge

Stand in for possibilities that open up when you decide to splash a color. It makes sense from a game design perspective to not have the best answers be colorless, but the result is, that sideboarding is probably the place where being straight up colorless hurts the most. It significantly reduces the available tools or forces you to play suboptimal answers. Still so far I have preferred the advantages of colorless lists to the upgrades provided by including a splash color.



Fill-Ups

Another valid sideboard option are cards that you cut from your maindeck. Can't find room for the fourth Hangarback Walker/Thorn of Amethyst/more copies of Lodestone Golem but still want them for specific matchups? Put them here.




V.) Other Resources



Jeff Hoogland playing the deck - Link (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taMg7XrsL2A)

Andrea Mengucci playing the deck - Link (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-4a2WYZ1KI)


Jarvis Yu playing the deck - Link (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/249731462)


Three part series about sideboarding with the deck by Amadeus GrŁn and Hedron.TV - Part 1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuJJnU8Ak6M), Part 2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiIwrlKGg5E), Part 3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6QLuNHE4zA)



- more links to reports, videos, articles about the deck to be added later -





VI.) Sample Lists


1.) Greg Kraigher Ė 21.10.2017 NA Legacy Champs 56/711


4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Steel Overseer
4 Walking Ballista
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Scrap Trawler
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sorcerous Spyglass
3 The Abyss
3 Mox Opal
2 Mox Diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Karakas
1 Swamp
4 Vault of Whispers

Sideboard
1 Coercive Portal
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Diabolic Edict
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Spine of Ish Sah
1 The Abyss
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Warping Wail






2.) Amadeus GrŁn Ė 07.01.2018 MKM Frankfurt 2/380



4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Steel Overseer
4 Walking Ballista
2 Hangarback Walker
2 Lodestone Golem
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Vault Skirge
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Lotus Petal
3 Mox Opal
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Inventors' Fair
2 Karakas

Sideboard
2 Spellskite
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Ratchet Bomb






3.) Noah Pardes Ė 28.01.2018 SCG Classic Philadelphia 16/176



4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Steel Overseer
4 Walking Ballista
2 Hangarback Walker
2 Lodestone Golem
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Vault Skirge
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Lotus Petal
3 Mox Opal
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Inventors' Fair
2 Karakas

Sideboard
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Spellskite
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Umezawa's Jitte



4.) Antarctica Ė 19.03.2018 MTGO Legacy Challenge 14/85



4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Steel Overseer
4 Walking Ballista
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Vault Skirge
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Lotus Petal
3 Mox Opal
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Inventors' Fair
2 Karakas

Sideboard
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Spellskite
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Warping Wail



5.) Joe Ricci Ė 06.04.2018 GP Seattle Trial 1/n.a.


4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Steel Overseer
4 Walking Ballista
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Vault Skirge
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Lotus Petal
2 Mox Opal
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Inventors' Fair
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard
4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Faerie Macabre
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Spellskite
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Warping Wail




VII.) Personal Current List


4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Steel Overseer
4 Walking Ballista
4 Hangarback Walker
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Foundry Inspector
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Karn, Scion of Urza
2 Lotus Petal
2 Mox Opal
2 Mox Diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
3 Blinkmoth Nexus
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Karakas
2 Cavern of Souls

Sideboard
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Ratchet Bomb
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Spellskite

Sisyphos
04-29-2018, 11:17 AM
*Reserved for possible stuff*

quadich
04-29-2018, 05:46 PM
@sisyphos

well since you asked i might as well add my two cents. I will not touch on the parts that i mostly agree with thus this might sound pretty negative although it really isnt and i am happy you took the time to write a primer.

Foundry Inspector: i tested him a little myself and its definitely a cool card, i do however feel that getting to cheat on 2-3 mana a turn is too much magical chirstmasland. Sure there are hands where you have him 2 lands and 4 others threats to deploy but only then can he generate that much virutal mana. In the topdeck mode, where the deck usually ends up by turn 3-4 he does not really help with casting stuff since you have more than enough mana by that point anyways. Sure he can be great with the XX cards potentially getting us to the extra counter. The flipside is that he is a 3/2 that costs 3 to stick initially and dies to basically any form of removal and dies to any other creature and does nothing if he dies. I dont think your assessment of the card is incorrect but i think you are overselling him a little here.

Vault Skirge: I run them (in the slots you are running inspector in i think). I too think paying life to cast them sucks and on their own they are rarely relevant. I have however found the extra flying to be very relevant in order to push thorugh damage on an otherwise locked up board(i do also run 4 hangarbacks currently). You could have added here that not playing skirge means that one should heavily consider Blinkmoth as a manland of choice.
i do have to say that when it comes to Inspector vs. Skirge they both have their pros and cons. personally i have found skirge to be superior in the current midrange metagame. You evidently prefer Inspector which i respect but i think when it comes to a primer the pros/cons should be put more objectively. After all there is already enough personal bias in the thread e.g. people disliking card because they dont own them/want to buy them.

Moxen: I have personally disliked mox diamond because discarding a land is rarely where i want to be. I think you came to pretty much the same conclusion i just disagree with the 0-2 recommendation. I think we can agree that mox diamond its best between turns 0-2 and is really bad afterwards most of the time ( sometimes you get to turn another city/tomb into something less horrible which is nice). However playing only up to 2 makes this a lot less likely to happen and more of a random element where it is super great if you have them in hand but you can never ever rely on having them. I'd argue that you either want 3-4 and get them in your first 8-9 card consistently or you just dont run them at all. I get that the 2/2/2 split might have treated you well in the past but in my opnion its neither here or there you sometimes get the right mox effect for your hand, sometimes you dont but you can never rely on getting the right one. Larger samplesizes might prove either of us wrong here though.

The Abyss: I personally liked the card so far. I agree that it propably not that great as a 3-4 of in the maindeck. more likely its a 1-2 of and likely only a sideboard card. The splash is not that difficult to work with since you do have 6-7 effects that allow to cast it already and cutting some number of inventors fair for vault of whispers is easy and makes mox opal more reliable. Also while 4 mana is alot and it can get taxed by thorns if they are in play: the same is true for Karn which you heavily advocate for.

Crucible of Worlds: I get your arguement against it, but it has not been a trap for me so far. In fact it was heavily needed to stabilize vs lands and any other deck with wasteland heavy openers. I think this more of a sideboard than a maindeck card i cannot see more than 2 copies in the board( and only if the meta is lands ridden) however it is not as bad because you need to stay in the game vs. decks like Lands/loam that do exist and that will punish you if you didnt get to keep a leyline ( hell even a Deck with KotR can just wasteland loop you). I also disagree with you saying that the deck is not a lock deck. Against turbo depths/lands you sometimes have to be a lock deck to win in fact i think the strength of the deck lies in being able to be a lock deck when it needs to. Again i too think it is narrow but in the match ups where its good its actually great because you dont need to slam a creature every turn to win anyways. Also the argument with ramuna is not a good one since he is tutorable with GSZ which is why he is played. if it was a colorless creature maverick would likely not play it.

Overall i think you did a great job desciribing the deck, the cards in it and how they interact. As i already mentioned however too much of it is your personal opinion/experience with the deck. This is very much appearent with "maybe" cards. Again i dont think that you are 100% incorrect and that my opinion on those cards is the superior one but with a primer it should be more objective in my opinion. Other than tha. Great job :D

Qernavak
05-05-2018, 03:20 AM
Another 5-0 with Steel Stompy

Here's my current list:
https://i.imgur.com/ROJI5yT.png

Faced:
D&T
Reanimator
TurboDepths
Reanimator
Painter

I loved the Primer by Sisyphos and wholeheartedly agree with Quadich's feedback. Except for the Crucible of Worlds part, since I have not tested. That said, I wouldn't agree that the best way to stabilize vs. lands is by dropping Crucible, since they can drop multiple lands per turn with Exploration. I think Thorn is a much better answer for slowing them down - and Thorn can constrict your Crucible even more.

I tested Karn and... I'm convinced that's not what I want for my 4-drop. I usually either couldn't cast because I had landed a Thorn earlier, or I would have other things to cast that were actually better because they would help me win the game and Karn wouldn't.

I think Karn needs to go on a shell that doesn't have Thorns, so perhaps it may be a spin-off archetype, but I'm convinced not this one.


Started playing this deck on and off ever since Amadeus made it popular and only in the most recent weeks have I learned how to play it and performed better with it. One of the most valuable lessons so far is to strategize when to play Steel Overseer. I used to play it on Turn 1 almost as an auto play, and now I know that's probably the wrong pay on a vacuum. One wants to protect that card as much as possible and most of the times the creature played on turn 1 is either something I'm willing to lose to removal, or a Vault Skirge. I also noticed that opponents tend not to kill Skirge on the spot, which seems intuitive, but I think that's the crux of their eventual loss.

I will keep playing this deck as long as it keeps me winning :)

from Cairo
05-05-2018, 06:24 PM
Iím pretty new to trying out this archetype and was curious about some of the differences Iíve seen in configurations.

The flex land slots seem split between people using Cavern of Souls, Inventorís Fair, and additional man lands. My initial thinking is manlands strike me as having broader strengths across matches. Their floor is less impacted by whatís in play/hand and I feel like their ceiling can also be quite high depending on game state.

There was some talk of Foundry Inspector in Vault Skirgeís place at some point. Did that configuration put up results anywhere?

Iíve been a bit surprised to see lists with less than 4 Thorn of Amethyst and less than 3 Lodestone Golem, sol land powering out disruption seems like where this deck wants to be starting games.

Anyone know another discussion location for Steel Stompy / Ravager Shops thatís more active than here? Just trying to gather up more perspectives on this deck.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Dice_Box
05-05-2018, 06:32 PM
With a bit of poking, you can get everyone talking in the Stax part of the Lands Discord. It's basically turned into a Prison Discord.

https://discord.gg/rxb7rUr

Qernavak
05-07-2018, 01:21 AM
Was testing a different Blinkmoth Nexus in lieu of Mishra's Factory and accidentally 5-0'd another league. Here's the list:

https://i.imgur.com/K2HXxaM.png

Being that the current online metagame is light Miracles and heavy in creature based decks, Blinkmoth seemed (and was) a better choice. Many were the times in which my opponent had creatures on board and we were both stalled except for the Nexuses, which cumulatively dealt the winning damage.

In most games, I use Factories to mainly produce mana, and not as a creature, neither attacking or defending. This is why I thought it might be worthwhile switching to Nexus.

You'll also note that I have dropped all the equipment from the deck: this comes from the realization that many times I'd have an equipment in hand, but my mana was more efficiently used either casting other spells, or pumping ballistas/hangarbacks. Or I would have equipment, but a small flow of creatures which were trading with opponent's removal.

Faced:

Elves
Death and Taxes
ANT
TES
Eldrazi

jolssoni
05-11-2018, 05:52 AM
http://puu.sh/Ak9rY/82e38d7357.JPG

Time to rename the thread? /s

imaginaryunit
05-11-2018, 10:42 AM
BTW, there's now an Affinity/Robots Discord at https://discord.gg/yr62bbe, with a Legacy section we can post in.

Krarkeon
05-11-2018, 12:38 PM
I get the appeal of running crucible for infinite tutors, but personally I think the deck has so much redundancy already you can shed it for some other pieces. Maybe a few Jitte's?

Captain Hammer
05-11-2018, 01:43 PM
Traxos, Scourge of Kroog seems like it could be very strong in this list. It has trample, and a 7/7 on turn 1/2 (4 mana is very easily achievable) with vigilance (given the number of artifacts the deck runs) that is immune to most of the removal that sees play seems like a great alternate route to victory/way to stabilize or recover if the opponent manages to shut down your initial plan of attack.

Fjaulnir
05-12-2018, 03:48 PM
My buddy Johan made top 3-4 at GP Birmingham with the deck, definitely piqued my interest in the deck more :smile:

aslidsiksoraksi
05-12-2018, 03:55 PM
My buddy Johan made top 3-4 at GP Birmingham with the deck, definitely piqued my interest in the deck more :smile:

Same here. It looks fun as hell, I was just waiting to see if it could put up numbers. But the proof is there!

malfie13
05-14-2018, 03:54 PM
Hi guys! I usually post and play 12 post metalworker mud, but I have been lurking and thinking about playing this deck for a little while, especially if spheres start locking me out. so I was wondering about two things about the deck: 1, how bad does the new sphere wreck this deck, if at all? 2, how set in stone is the lands package for the deck? I feel like some extra drawn cards could seriously benefit the deck if it stalled. The city's blessing land seems like it would fit well. Also i feel like the deck could die fairly quickly to delvers. Have any of you all tested with multiple blinkmoths?

H
05-14-2018, 04:16 PM
Hi guys! I usually post and play 12 post metalworker mud, but I have been lurking and thinking about playing this deck for a little while, especially if spheres start locking me out. so I was wondering about two things about the deck: 1, how bad does the new sphere wreck this deck, if at all? 2, how set in stone is the lands package for the deck? I feel like some extra drawn cards could seriously benefit the deck if it stalled. The city's blessing land seems like it would fit well. Also i feel like the deck could die fairly quickly to delvers. Have any of you all tested with multiple blinkmoths?

Damping Sphere? I can't imagine anyone really boarding that in against you and if they did, they probably just played a Time Walk against themselves, but maybe they slowed you down a turn. I wouldn't worry about it. It seems like most of the time it would barely effect you.

Not sure which land you are talking about, but I'd guess it's Arch of Orazca? Problem here (and mind you, I've only played the deck for about 2 months now) it's actually rather rare for you to have 10 permanents. And even more rare (I'd think) to have 10 permanents and 5 mana, plus that land. I mean, I'd say try it and see, but I have some doubts.

Last time I played, I did include a couple Blinkmoths and they did a bit of work in one game where the Flying was relevant. I'm not sure they are great, but they are definitely worth considering, because Overseer makes everything ridiculous, honestly.

On GP Birmingham, I think Johan could have won the whole thing, if he lets that Overseer actually block the Ringleader, then swings back and gains 4 off the Jitte, I think he wins that game. Easy to say from my armchair, but I was rooting for him and was glad to see him do well, even if that puts this deck on people's "radar."

aslidsiksoraksi
05-14-2018, 06:28 PM
I agree, as an outsider looking in that g3 was a bit misplayed. I thought if he goes all in on the etched champion he could at least threaten lethal, or if he had blocked more aggressively...

But then again I have zero experience with the deck. seems like Ballista is the best card in the deck in that matchup and he never seemed to get any :rolleyes:

Have people tried more than 2 inventor's fair? I'm putting the deck together and that card seems particularly useful. It's legendary and all, so maybe 3x?

Man of Steel
05-15-2018, 01:28 AM
I also think that damping sphere is garbage against us. I was playing 2 Fairs for a long time and was convinced that they will stay in the deck forever, but there are a number of lands that felt better. For example Blinkmoth, Ghost Quarter etc.

Has anyone tested a deck with for blinkmoth instead of the factories?

Btw after a lot of Testing i cut all the Lodestone Golems and was pretty impressed with "man of Steel" without the golems:smile:

Qernavak
05-15-2018, 02:02 AM
I also think that damping sphere is garbage against us. I was playing 2 Fairs for a long time and was convinced that they will stay in the deck forever, but there are a number of lands that felt better. For example Blinkmoth, Ghost Quarter etc.

Has anyone tested a deck with for blinkmoth instead of the factories?

Btw after a lot of Testing i cut all the Lodestone Golems and was pretty impressed with "man of Steel" without the golems:smile:

I have replaced Factories with Blinkmoths and it feels like a more reliable thread. They especially shine in standoff games, where the 1 or 2 damage eventually wins the game. It has also won me games by blocking 20/20 flying indestructibles, allowing me time to find answers,etc. I am not disappointed and I'm leaving it as a 4-of for the foreseeable future.

I also agree that Fairs can be flex slots. I have been thinking about Darksteel Citadel for a while and seeing Johan have great success with them leads me to believe they're worth exploring.

I am also thinking about Welding Jar: sometimes, protecting the one key creature or artifact makes the difference between winning or losing. With Jar, I can also make my Opals active at a much faster pace.

Unfortunately the MTGO metagame has turned a bit sour: too many main deck Back to Basics. The card on itself is not too bad, but when you combine it with Terminus, it can be devastating. And Back to Basics can often mean game over... it feels worse than vs. Lands, because is like if they Wastelanded 2, 3 or 4 lands in one shot. If B2B prevails in the metagame, then I will have to add a color for a reliable enchantment removal strategy.

I'm curious to see your current test deck, without Golems and without Fairs.

Man of Steel
05-15-2018, 02:31 AM
I have replaced Factories with Blinkmoths and it feels like a more reliable thread. They especially shine in standoff games, where the 1 or 2 damage eventually wins the game. It has also won me games by blocking 20/20 flying indestructibles, allowing me time to find answers,etc. I am not disappointed and I'm leaving it as a 4-of for the foreseeable future.

I also agree that Fairs can be flex slots. I have been thinking about Darksteel Citadel for a while and seeing Johan have great success with them leads me to believe they're worth exploring.

I am also thinking about Welding Jar: sometimes, protecting the one key creature or artifact makes the difference between winning or losing. With Jar, I can also make my Opals active at a much faster pace.

Unfortunately the MTGO metagame has turned a bit sour: too many main deck Back to Basics. The card on itself is not too bad, but when you combine it with Terminus, it can be devastating. And Back to Basics can often mean game over... it feels worse than vs. Lands, because is like if they Wastelanded 2, 3 or 4 lands in one shot. If B2B prevails in the metagame, then I will have to add a color for a reliable enchantment removal strategy.

I'm curious to see your current test deck, without Golems and without Fairs.


I also play 2 welding jar at the moment and it feels right. The 2 maindeck Jars have replaced the 2 Spellskites in the board. B2B is a problem. I try 4 mox opal in my current list to fight B2B and make the starts more broken. I also test 4 Karn in the main, which is also very good againsr B2B and terminius.

But back to the topic. Do you think of playing more than 4 creature lands or playing only Blinkmoth?

Qernavak
05-15-2018, 03:32 AM
I also play 2 welding jar at the moment and it feels right. The 2 maindeck Jars have replaced the 2 Spellskites in the board. B2B is a problem. I try 4 mox opal in my current list to fight B2B and make the starts more broken. I also test 4 Karn in the main, which is also very good againsr B2B and terminius.

But back to the topic. Do you think of playing more than 4 creature lands or playing only Blinkmoth?

I think there may be a configuration that benefits from more than 4 creature lands. But right now I don't think the Stompy version of the deck needs more than 4 creature lands. In my opinion, the main goal of the deck in its more common versions is to have an early lock or a must deal threat. The most effective way of achieving this is via Ancient Tomb or City of Traitors. If I use Tomb, then it follows that I would take considerable damage through the progression of the game, eventually making it too risky to produce mana from it. If I use Traitors I will have a fast start but often my mana production will stagnate as trade land drops for the previously played Traitors. In both cases, I often find myself in developed games where access to mana is at a premium. Under this premise, I don't see myself in a late game using my mana for activating several creature lands.

I think if the deck shifted to a much more aggressive deck style, much like its Modern version, then I can see having more creature lands would be successful.

aslidsiksoraksi
05-16-2018, 03:03 AM
I saw it mentioned a few pages back, but what is the thought on scrap trawler?

Almost the entire curve is at 2, but a lot of it is also at zero (technically). seems like trawler would make ravager go properly insane and could be some protection against Supreme Verdict/burn/push/etc.

obviously a card for a more grindy build but it seems such builds exist.

H
05-16-2018, 06:20 AM
I saw it mentioned a few pages back, but what is the thought on scrap trawler?

Almost the entire curve is at 2, but a lot of it is also at zero (technically). seems like trawler would make ravager go properly insane and could be some protection against Supreme Verdict/burn/push/etc.

obviously a card for a more grindy build but it seems such builds exist.

I think someone mentioned it earlier in the thread, but the fact that the Artifact returned needs to be less than and not equal to the CMC of the dying one really kills the utility of Scrap Trawler. It makes it so that our two drops only get back zeros and our zeros get back nothing, which really doesn't do all that much in reality. It might by you 1 or maybe 2 more things for Ravager to eat, but I don't know that this is all the great, considering the cost of having Scrap Trawler in your deck in the first place (it might just do nothing).

Johanovich
05-16-2018, 06:21 AM
I agree, as an outsider looking in that g3 was a bit misplayed. I thought if he goes all in on the etched champion he could at least threaten lethal, or if he had blocked more aggressively...

But then again I have zero experience with the deck. seems like Ballista is the best card in the deck in that matchup and he never seemed to get any :rolleyes:


On GP Birmingham, I think Johan could have won the whole thing, if he lets that Overseer actually block the Ringleader, then swings back and gains 4 off the Jitte, I think he wins that game. Easy to say from my armchair, but I was rooting for him and was glad to see him do well, even if that puts this deck on people's "radar."

You are both absolutely right, the second game was one massive tilt from my part. I should have either blocked the rabblemaster with the ravager earlier and put the counters on champion, which would have made it a three turn clock, or I should have made it a 12/12 at the end, keeping mox but losing metalcraft, then play an artifact in my turn to gain protection and swing for lethal. The third game was pretty unwinnable I think, there's an argumant for immediately making a token with karn, but it was impossible to guess that he would topdeck spyglass there. Gary actually gave me a fighting chance by abrading the first opal and imprinting the second abrade instead of going for the spyglass and using hazoret to kill me quicker. What really did me in that game was the magus, shutting off my lifegain and tutoring ability from fair.

Although there's no real excuse for playing like a baboon, I do have to point out that I was pretty exhausted at the time and we were both warned by the judge between G1 and G2 that he would start giving out warnings and game losses for slowplay from then on, and every time we paused for more than four seconds or so the judge would whip out his watch and started timing us. Gary actually got a warning during game 2 I believe.

Oh well, everybody makes mistakes I guess. Still very happy with how the deck performed and still really happy with the configuration.

H
05-16-2018, 07:09 AM
Although there's no real excuse for playing like a baboon, I do have to point out that I was pretty exhausted at the time and we were both warned by the judge between G1 and G2 that he would start giving out warnings and game losses for slowplay from then on, and every time we paused for more than four seconds or so the judge would whip out his watch and started timing us. Gary actually got a warning during game 2 I believe.

Oh well, everybody makes mistakes I guess. Still very happy with how the deck performed and still really happy with the configuration.

I completely understand, as I am usually completely exhausted after just, say, 5-6 rounds of playing. It was a rather complex situation and being rushed isn't going to help. Congratulations on the good run and I think the Etched Champion is probably the 3 drop that works out the best, if they are going to play a 3 drop.

Airwave
05-17-2018, 04:53 AM
You are both absolutely right, the second game was one massive tilt from my part. I should have either blocked the rabblemaster with the ravager earlier and put the counters on champion, which would have made it a three turn clock, or I should have made it a 12/12 at the end, keeping mox but losing metalcraft, then play an artifact in my turn to gain protection and swing for lethal. The third game was pretty unwinnable I think, there's an argumant for immediately making a token with karn, but it was impossible to guess that he would topdeck spyglass there. Gary actually gave me a fighting chance by abrading the first opal and imprinting the second abrade instead of going for the spyglass and using hazoret to kill me quicker. What really did me in that game was the magus, shutting off my lifegain and tutoring ability from fair.

Although there's no real excuse for playing like a baboon, I do have to point out that I was pretty exhausted at the time and we were both warned by the judge between G1 and G2 that he would start giving out warnings and game losses for slowplay from then on, and every time we paused for more than four seconds or so the judge would whip out his watch and started timing us. Gary actually got a warning during game 2 I believe.

Oh well, everybody makes mistakes I guess. Still very happy with how the deck performed and still really happy with the configuration.

Hi Johan,

Congratz on your great performance! :smile: Really puts the deck on the map.

I had a few questions if you don't mind:
- Why choose Darksteel Citadel over Vault of Whispers? Is the indestructible that important? In my, MUD-experience, it doesn't really help because they'll just waste another land and you're still often low on mana then.
- Is the Phyrexian Metamorph in to copy Steel Overseer or Arcbound Ravager mostly or to copy creatures of the opponent?
- I remember you really liked (we actually met briefly in Belgium, you probably don't remember) Crucible of Worlds in the deck but you took it out, it didn't work out as you would've liked?
- Would you change anything in the list or go with the same 75 if you were to compete with it again?

Great innovation on the Etched Champion, I'm going to try that one as well, the evasion is nice :cool:

Johanovich
05-17-2018, 07:27 AM
Hi Johan,

Congratz on your great performance! :smile: Really puts the deck on the map.

I had a few questions if you don't mind:
- Why choose Darksteel Citadel over Vault of Whispers? Is the indestructible that important? In my, MUD-experience, it doesn't really help because they'll just waste another land and you're still often low on mana then.
- Is the Phyrexian Metamorph in to copy Steel Overseer or Arcbound Ravager mostly or to copy creatures of the opponent?
- I remember you really liked (we actually met briefly in Belgium, you probably don't remember) Crucible of Worlds in the deck but you took it out, it didn't work out as you would've liked?
- Would you change anything in the list or go with the same 75 if you were to compete with it again?

Great innovation on the Etched Champion, I'm going to try that one as well, the evasion is nice :cool:

Hi,

I think I do remember our talk. I cut crucible because it did turn out to be winmore in the end.
The darksteel citadel is the most reliable way to turn on metalcraft and keep it active. If you play vault you give them an extra way of manascrewing you by opening it up to spell based removal.
Metamorph is there as a catch-all. So far I've mainly used it to copy leovold, marit lage, true-name and gurmag angler but in some situations copying your own stuff is good as well. As a matter of fact the first game against Takahashi featured a metamorph copying leovold which won me the game but they didn't show that game unfortunately.

I think I might experiment a bit with karn maindeck and with a lower number of thorns (or cut them from the main) as they have proven to be very lackluster in a lot of games and there is a lower amount of combo for the moment. I might also try out an abyss because it just sounds juicy.

quadich
05-18-2018, 12:04 AM
So i have posted this on the Discord before but i figured i might as well post it here: How would you guys feel about a red splash (using 2 Great furnace) in order to run blood moons in the sideboard. It hits Lands and turbodepths while also hosing Delver & Pile. ( i run 4 petals 3 opals resulting in a 70-80% chance to have a red source by turn 2-3)

Alex_UNLIMITED
05-21-2018, 05:54 PM
Oh well, everybody makes mistakes I guess. Still very happy with how the deck performed and still really happy with the configuration.

I see that you played Ensnaring Bridge against Grixis Delver. I don't know why you do that, but I'm curious to see your sideboarding strategies. There is a place on the internet where I can found them? Are you thinking to write an article for some website to explain your sideboarding?

McMasterJ
05-21-2018, 09:28 PM
I was at GP Toronto this weekend. Didn't played Steel Stompy for the main event, but brought it to a couple of side events. Overall, 3-0, 2-1, 2-1, 2-1, 2-1.

I mostly played Johan De Gruyter list, with some change to the main/sideboard. One change I made to the main deck was playing Blinkmoth Nexus over Mishra's factory. I was really impressed with Blinkmoth nexus and will keep them instead of factories. Flying was relevant in a lot of matches, flying over a stalled board with a bridge, or just equiping a jitte/SoFi and getting there.

Otherwise, I really liked Etched Champion and Darksteel citadel. Champion is kind of a True-Name Nemesis most of the time, and clearly gave me a couple of victories in close games (just think about equiping jitte/SoFi on Etched champion - yeah).

Lodestone golem was unimpressive and I'm thinking about replacing them. I saw some earlier posts talking about it - what are you playing instead of Lodestone ?

Deck is great, lot of fun.

Johanovich
05-22-2018, 09:09 AM
I see that you played Ensnaring Bridge against Grixis Delver. I don't know why you do that, but I'm curious to see your sideboarding strategies. There is a place on the internet where I can found them? Are you thinking to write an article for some website to explain your sideboarding?

To be honest I wasn't thinking about writing an article, but if people want to know I guess I could write something small.
During testing against grixis delver I found that bridge can often be a life-saver in the matchup, buying you enough time to stabilize before they can destroy it of before you get rid of it yourself.

Alex_UNLIMITED
05-22-2018, 04:48 PM
To be honest I wasn't thinking about writing an article, but if people want to know I guess I could write something small.
During testing against grixis delver I found that bridge can often be a life-saver in the matchup, buying you enough time to stabilize before they can destroy it of before you get rid of it yourself.
Yes, please! A quick guide about the sideboarding would be great! I see that you also side in a lot of cards against Czech Pile (at least Sorcerous Spyglass and Ratchet Bomb, other than Karn, Scion of Urza, but I didn't see Spellskite, even if maybe you side in it too), but I have some doubt about what to side out.
I was (and maybe still I am) a MUD player and I buy this deck after your result at GP, even if I already knew Steel Stompy.

malfie13
05-23-2018, 09:46 AM
Yes, please! A quick guide about the sideboarding would be great! I see that you also side in a lot of cards against Czech Pile (at least Sorcerous Spyglass and Ratchet Bomb, other than Karn, Scion of Urza, but I didn't see Spellskite, even if maybe you side in it too), but I have some doubt about what to side out.
I was (and maybe still I am) a MUD player and I buy this deck after your result at GP, even if I already knew Steel Stompy.

I play more MUD still than this deck, which is more of a preference choice than anything else. I feel like both get equally wrecked by btb, although the faster start of stompy occasionally just gets there underneath it if they cannot find terminus in time. Crucible does appear a win more in this deck, as it is very different than MUD. This deck ive found dies a little harder to null rod, but is slightly more resilient to k command. Thorn and Chalice is still great in either MUD or Stompy. Thoughts across both, so far.

malfie13
05-23-2018, 09:48 AM
Ps, i really like metamorph in either. How many people play it in this deck?

Qernavak
05-24-2018, 03:09 AM
Just went 12-3 in mtgo leagues with the following list (including a 5-0 league):

https://i.imgur.com/szeLBSQ.jpg

This was a proof of concept, to test (a) that 8 creature lands can be played (b) that if such deck was viable, then Karn can be maximized in there. So far seems to have yielded some good anecdotal results. A lot more testing is required.

A few changes needed:

Mainboard:
-1 Ghost Quarter
+1 Darksteel Citadel
Sideboad:
-1 Ghost Quarter
-2 Crucible of Worlds
+3 Thorn of Amethyst


Individual card discussion:

Ghost Quarter. I had tested with Vault of Whispers and I really liked it; but the fact that Citadel is immune to Wasteland is a much greater bonus than tapping for black. Ghost Quarter on the other hand was irrelevant for most of the games where I had it. There was only one instance in which it function as a worse wasteland. Otherwise, it was not worth sac'cing.

Crucible of Worlds. Just like GQ, didn't seem like the right choice in many matches. Maybe in a Lands heavy metagame is a good choice, but not right now.

Thorn of Amethyst. My initial feel is that I don't want Thorn in a deck with 4 Karns. Now I feel that Thorns in the SB is needed, otherwise I concede too much to Storm, and other combo decks. And for those decks, Karn may not be the right choice.


Karn, Scion of Urza. I think Karn is good; but I also think it is very overhyped. It's not backbreaking, but it is a Planeswalker and as such is difficult for opponents to deal with. I have learned that in our deck its best ability is the -2, and I often found myself only using this ability. On the other hand, I sometimes wonder if playing Master of Etherium would be just as good. I guess I'll never know because I'm not going to test that ;P. Anyhow, I wouldn't cut any Karns, the creatures it spits out grow very fast and trade with other big creatures in the format. And redundant Karns are pretty acceptable. So I'm sticking with 4x

Welding Jar This card was the MVP. I would play 3 or 4 if it wasn't a dead card on its own. But being able to protect Overseer or Chalice, ANY OTHER ARTIFACT is just so amazing. I guess the best part was having opponents losing their minds with such an obnoxious card on the field. But for now, I'll stick with 2, and will perhaps test out 3.

Lodestone Golem. I think 2x of them is OK. I woudn't cut them unless I think Storm is nonexistent in the metagame. If I were to play 3, then I would cut 2 Karns; if I were to play 4 then I would play 0 Karns in the mainboard. So I think 2x is the max number with 4x Karns.

Alex_UNLIMITED
05-24-2018, 11:05 AM
Guys, what's your sideboarding strategy against Grixis Delver and Czech Pile?
Grixis Delver: what are the bad maindeck cards against them? I think Phyrexian Revoker and Karakas, but maybe also other cards?
Czech Pile: what are the good sideboard cards against them? Karn, Scion of Urza, Spellskite, Sourcerouss Spyglass and Ratchet Bomb are all good cards, but how can I find a space to put all of them in g2?

mambosong
05-24-2018, 11:06 AM
Is anyone else finding mox opal a bit lack luster? I'm finding that it's not often 'on' until turn 2 or 3, and easily shuts off when the opponent kills off our creatures, so it ends up being a... worse land? With this deck, there aren't any/many 0-drops that we can play to use it to cheat out a turn 1 thorn or chalice... which should be the whole point of playing the card in the first place

I think we can cut it, and replace it with mox diamonds (which would require a higher land count) or crystal veins. Thoughts? Am I in the minority in seeing how slow mox opal really is?

EDIT: edited for grammar

Qernavak
05-24-2018, 04:19 PM
Is anyone else finding mox opal a bit lack luster? I'm finding that it's not often 'on' until turn 2 or 3, and easily shuts off when the opponent kills off our creatures, so it ends up being a... worse land? With this deck, there aren't any/many 0-drops that we can play to use it to cheat out a turn 1 thorn or chalice... which should be the whole point of playing the card in the first place

I think we can cut it, and replace it with mox diamonds (which would require a higher land count) or crystal veins. Thoughts? Am I in the minority in seeing how slow mox opal really is?

EDIT: edited for grammar

In those builds without artifact lands, the expectation is that Mox Opal would normally be available mostly turn 3 and on; sometimes turn 2. Which is why some builds have cut to 2 of them. In the version with artifact lands, having 3 should be the standard, with sometimes able to jump to 4. So far, I'm very happy with Mox Opal. Perhaps you have set your expectations too high?

Mox Diamond is an alternative, but your land count should be above 24, so maybe 25-26. But I would supplement Mox Opals and Petals, rather than replacing them. I personally would not do it mostly because I believe the deck is already very high variance, and Mox Diamond just adds more of it.

In addition to artifact lands, you may want to test into zero cost artifacts. Right now I have had success with Welding Jar, but Baubles may be another potential way of activating Opals.

Alex_UNLIMITED
05-25-2018, 11:38 AM
To be honest I wasn't thinking about writing an article, but if people want to know I guess I could write something small.
During testing against grixis delver I found that bridge can often be a life-saver in the matchup, buying you enough time to stabilize before they can destroy it of before you get rid of it yourself.
Where do you find the space to put those sideboard cards? What are the worse maindeck cards against Czech Pile and Grixis Delver?

Qernavak
05-30-2018, 03:01 AM
Another iteration with a decent success. The new player is Thought-Knot Seer:

https://i.imgur.com/jqTXWq1.png

After heavily testing with Karn I really came to appreciate having threats that are not vulnerable to artifact destruction. Further, I wanted to have more disruption in the main and honesty I didn't think Lodestone Golem was not cutting it with the Thorns moved to the SB. Long time ago I tried TKS in MoS, but without success.

I think what's different in this new iteration is the diversity in threats.

Karn continues to be a force to reckoned, and I hesitated cutting down their number, but on the other hand I cannot have a top-heavy curve.

Cryoclasm
06-01-2018, 07:59 AM
No love for Inventor's Fair and Jitte?
I found Fair very cute and quite convenient when you can tutor up Metamorph, Jitte, or Ballista in late game to break stalemate.
You almost doubled (or tripled if Hangarback Walker counts) the number of creatures with evasion so Jitte should be a thing here.

Alex_UNLIMITED
06-02-2018, 08:03 AM
What do you think about Sorcerous Spyglass against Grixis Delver? Death & Taxes players prefer to not play Phyrexian Revoker against Grixis Delver in g2 (the only target is maybe Deathrite Shaman). Do you prefer to play both Phyrexian Revoker and Sorcerous Spyglass against Grixis Delver?

Johanovich
06-02-2018, 04:26 PM
Where do you find the space to put those sideboard cards? What are the worse maindeck cards against Czech Pile and Grixis Delver?


What do you think about Sorcerous Spyglass against Grixis Delver? Death & Taxes players prefer to not play Phyrexian Revoker against Grixis Delver in g2 (the only target is maybe Deathrite Shaman). Do you prefer to play both Phyrexian Revoker and Sorcerous Spyglass against Grixis Delver?

Revoker is the first thing to go out against grixis delver and czech pile. It dies to everything they have and is pretty weak on it's own. I also find thorn pretty lackluster against grixis and czech after game 1. Games tend to go longer after game 1 so the effect of a thorn is quickly mitigated (especially with deathrite). Grixis is also very capable of playing a longer game, much better than UR delver or RUG delver where thorn stays good after game 1. You're boarding in mostly noncreature spells which is also kind of a nonbo with thorn.

Spyglass or not depends a bit on how they boarded. If they board in stuff like lili the last hope, lavamancer or staticaster you might want to bring one or both in. I you can't shut them down these cards pretty much wreck the deck.

I'll write how I sideboarded against the decks I faced next week together with a report of the GP. I'm in the middle of writing a paper so I don't have much time for now.

Qernavak
06-05-2018, 02:59 AM
Working on a new variation. Here's a little teaser:

https://i.imgur.com/JDicml8.png

Alex_UNLIMITED
06-05-2018, 10:28 AM
Revoker is the first thing to go out against grixis delver and czech pile. It dies to everything they have and is pretty weak on it's own. I also find thorn pretty lackluster against grixis and czech after game 1. Games tend to go longer after game 1 so the effect of a thorn is quickly mitigated (especially with deathrite). Grixis is also very capable of playing a longer game, much better than UR delver or RUG delver where thorn stays good after game 1. You're boarding in mostly noncreature spells which is also kind of a nonbo with thorn.

Spyglass or not depends a bit on how they boarded. If they board in stuff like lili the last hope, lavamancer or staticaster you might want to bring one or both in. I you can't shut them down these cards pretty much wreck the deck.

I'll write how I sideboarded against the decks I faced next week together with a report of the GP. I'm in the middle of writing a paper so I don't have much time for now.
Thank you! I'm waiting the report, it will be very interesting to know how did you get to the top 4, especially for the sideboarding strategies.

Johanovich
06-05-2018, 11:56 AM
As promised, a short report from the GP. I didnít take a lot of notes so some info will be missing here and there. I played in three events including the main event.

I played the following list:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Darksteel Citadel
2 Inventors' Fair
1 Karakas
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland

4 Arcbound Ravager
2 Etched Champion
2 Lodestone Golem
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Steel Overseer
4 Vault Skirge
4 Walking Ballista

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Lotus Petal
3 Mox Opal
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Umezawa's Jitte

SIDEBOARD
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Karn, Scion of Urza
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Spellskite

First side event:
R1: turbo depths
Win the die roll
G1: I have wastelands, chalice, revoker plus extra pressure so easy win
G2: I have a quick spyglass and see stage, urborg, dephts, sylvan, crop rotation, hexmage and petal. I put it on hexmage because I have wasteland, but he manages to get extra pieces so he makes a 20/20 in his turn. I copy marit lage with metamorph but he has sejiri steppe in hand to get past my copy.
G3: I get chalice down with some beaters, but take a lot of damage from tomb. He makes a 20/20 but my board pressure is too much.
1-0

R2: turbo dephts
Lose the die roll
G1: urborg + depths + hexmage = very dead
G2: he puts needle on wasteland, I put revoker on hexmage, of which he has three. I have metamorph in hand but miss the play to copy his needle for stage and he goes eot crop rotation into stage to make a 20/20. Could potentially have won this if I was paying more attention.
1-1

R3: Sneaky show
Win the die roll
G1: show and tell into grisel on turn 2 and I am dead
G2: he manages to get a sneak attack down, flashes in emrakul to wipe my board and hit me to 1. Luckily I still have a factory with land and I proceed to hit him for 2 every turn until I rip a revoker two turns after to seal the deal.
G3: he plays show and tell with island and tomb to get omniscience down. I put a lodestone intoplay so he canít cast anything. In my turn I waste his tomb and swing for 8, he pyroclasms my board except for lodestone. I hit for 5 and he goes ponder into lotus petal into through the breach with nothing.
2-1

Main event:
R1: grixis delver
No idea who won the roll
I donít have a lot of notes from this match, but he mulled in games 2 and 3. I remember these 3 games being fairly close
1-0

R2: deathblade
Win the die roll
G1: I have chalice on 1, a revoker runs into a blue ambush viper but after that the robot pressure is too much for him.
G2: He mulls to 6, goes DRS into stoneforge to get batterskull. I donít have metamorph or champion so I die to the germ.
G3: He mulls to 6 again, I land a karn turn 2 which effectively ends the game.
2-0

R3: grixis delver
No idea who won the roll
G1: chalice on 1 with two overseer and a creature quickly ends the game.
G2: I get some early beats, then ravager takes him from 12 to 0
3-0

R4: grixis delver (I think)
No idea who won the roll
Again I have very few notes of this match, it also wasnít clear to me if he was pure grixis delver or a more controllish build. I saw pyromancer, wasteland and gurmag angler but also baleful strix. He also had izzet staticaster postboard. I do remember making a mistake in game 2 which cost me the game, but I won games 1 and 3
4-0

R5: lands
Win the die roll
G1: he accidentally shows a mox diamond, so I know the deck involves a certain 20/20. He mulls game 1, I have chalice on 1 and proceed to beat face.
G2: I start with leyline in play, start my first two turns with chalice on 1 and spyglass on stage. He grips both the chalice and spyglass and almost gets back in the game by crop rotating for chasm and playing drop of honey. Luckily I had been sandbagging a wasteland for the chasm to swing for lethal. I also still had karakas and bridge as backup in my hand.
5-0

R6: czech pile
No idea who won the roll
I win games 1 and 3. In game 2 a karn gets hymned together with overseer. He admitted that he would have scooped if the karn hit play because he has no way of getting rid of it and it nets too much cards. G3 I won by playing spyglass on scalding tarn, effectively preventing him from ever getting to three mana for his K-commands.
6-0

R7: storm
Win the die roll
G1: I have chalice on 1 with a very fast clock. I only saw island and swamp so I wasnít sure what I was playing against. I assumed it was control to I took out thorns but left in the golems.
G2: I keep a hand with a reasonable clock but without any real disruption. He fetches for island and swamp like G1 and cantrips a bit, then gets volcanic on turn 4 and goes cabal ritual, cabal ritual, dark petition, etc.
G3: thorns go back in the deck and I go turn 1 thorn, turn 2 chalice on 1 and revoker on LED, turn 3 chalice on 0 with another revoker in hand. Nuff said.
7-0

R8: grixis delver
Lose the die roll
G1: I get chalice on 1 to resolve and he scoops as soon as I play a clock.
G2: the combination of quick delver beats, wastelands, TNN and ancient grudge create a pretty much unwinnable game.
G3: donít remember what exactly happened, but this game was very close and I had the feeling I could lose at any moment.
8-0

Day 2, given that I was not selected for a feature match on day 1 I figured I would be on feature in the first round of day 2. I wasnít wrong.
R9: grixis delver (feature match):
Lose the die roll.
I get the first deck check of the day, everything was fine.
You can see everything on the video, but the main thing was that my game 1 thorn did absolutely nothing because he just played creatures. Game 2 I probably should either have mulled the hand or played the ratchet bomb first instead of the overseer. Normally I have a pretty good chance then to draw another land for the vault skirge and get going from there. Sadly I donít see any lands anymore before I die. Mistakes were madeÖ
8-1

R10: grixis delver
Lose the die roll
I win G1 and G3 because of him mulliganing to 6 and me having lifelink beats.
9-1

R11: moon stompy (Gary Campbell)
Lose the die roll
G1: for the first time in day 2 I have a sol land + chalice with some other good stuff so I keep. Then gary starts the game with tomb, chalice on 1. Luckily I have overseer + 2 ballista to keep shooting and swinging despite a bridge.
G2: turn 2 karn seals the deal.
10-1

R12: tin fins
Lose the die roll
I get my second deck check of the day. My deck is still fine, but my opponent gets a warning because of marked cards. Apparently some sleeves were from a different pack, which caused their sides to stand out in the main deck as lines. He changes the sleeves and asks the judge to check and the judge gives us the all-clear.
G1: he mulls to 5 and I have double overseer plus skirge. Just before they can get completely out of hand he gets emrakul into play via shallow grave to clear most of my board and knock me to 1. I keep a 3/3 overseer and a revoker in play to beat him to death in a few turns.
When weíre done sideboarding I notice the same kind of lines in his deck, so we call a judge to check. Turns out all of his sideboard cards were from the other pack of sleeves so they stand out against the main deck. The judges apologised as they felt this was also partly their fault (they checked maindeck and sideboard separately) for not checking this during the first deck check, but due to the rules they cannot downgrade it and he gets a game loss.
11-1

R13: elves
Lose the die roll
G1: he plays forest, DRS so I know itís probably elves. I land chalice on 1 to stop him from doing broken stuff. He later goes eot fetch for dryad arbor, zenith for ranger, tap arbor and forest, bounce forest to untap arbor, replay forest and tap forest and arbor to play order into hoof. I go to 3 and I chump the hoof for a few turns while killing his other remaining creatures. If I topdeck a non-tomb land (Iím at 2 life) I can play etched champion or lodestone golen to kill his hoof or eternally chump it. I topdeck ancient tomb.
G2: I get an active jitte on turn 2, which is later destroyed by reclamation sage but the damage is done. I play walking ballista to mop up the rest and win from there.
G3: chalice on 1 faces of against DRS like in game one, but now revoker and a few others join the party and his plays are hindered too much by the chalice.
12-1

R14: czech pile (feature match)
Lose the die roll
G1 is not on the feature, which is a real shame as it featured a metamorph copying a leovold. Considering my deck is not bothered too much by leovold this ends up winning me the game.
G2: too many kolaghanís command form my deck to handle and I took a lot of damage from tomb. Especially the vault skirges with the tomb really hurt, but I needed to advance my board. The spyglass on delta could have worked out pretty good with the lifegain from fair if he hadnít topdecked another fetch right then.
G3: to react to the comments: I wasnít playing around daze. My plan with karn usually involves playing some threats or lockpieces to get counters out of their hand first and then follow up with karn to restock. When I noticed he missed his land drop and I didnít draw any good alternative to cast I decided to give it a go anyways. Tapping the wasteland was a mistake which luckily didnít cost me the game.
13-1

R15: ID
13-1-1

QF: grixis delver (feature match)
Iím on the play
G1: all in all I think I played this one correctly. Perhaps jitte was also an option in game 1, but that wouldíve required me to sac my thorn. Another route was to sac thorn to ballista as well to take out the deathrite to quicken my clock, but in every scenario I wouldíve died to bolt before I could kill him.
G2: I can see definitely why you would keep the first hand, but if the chalice gets countered you have a very slow hand all of a sudden with factories as the only beaters. So I decided I wanted a hand that does not completely depend on chalice resolving. Turns out he did not have the force anyway.
G3: I did not want to give him extra mana, so no wasteland activation. The commentators were really going on about not playing the factory, but at that point itís a bit unnecessary and I would only be giving him more mana to work with because of the city dying. Similarly I didnít want to play metamorph because he was dying anyway and if he counters it he could eat the creature with deathrite to gain life. I do admit I should have been a bit more aggressive with champion to end the game quicker.
14-1-1

SF: moon stompy (feature match)
Iím on the play
G1 was fine, G2 is one massive tilt and G3 was a bit of bad luck (my outs for the last draw I took were ballista and ratchet bomb). I do think it might have been better to make a token with karn immediately instead of upticking, but thereís no way I could have guessed he was going to play spyglass. Also the cards karn revealed were the worst possible options in that situation. Revoker on hazoret was because of ensnaring bridge. In testing this is what killed me most of the times because they can empty their hand for bridge. If you have a sphere effect often they are stuck with a card or two and you can sneak in damage under a bridge.
14-2-1

Second side event
R1: dredge
Lose the die roll
G1: I mull to 4, dredge does what dredge does best
G2: I have a ravager to get rid of bridges and a thorn to prevent flashbacs after a wasteland. Vault skirge with 2 overseer races 3 ichorids and 2 narcomoeba.
G3: I start with leyline and she didnít board in enchantment removal.
1-0

R2: land tax
Lose the die roll
G1: plays land tax forces my chalice and gain a ton of value via land tax plus scroll rack. I die to RIP + helm.
G2: I get some creatures including ravager and 2 ballista in play. He has two tapped lands and an uncracked fetch at 18 life. I quickly calculate I can do 17 damage in total so I have to rely on him cracking the fetch. I swing with everything, he decides to crack the fetch and swords my ravage so I sac everything except ballista to ravage and ravage to himself. He dies to ballista combat damage plus ballista activations. Turns out he had energy field in hand so if he hadnít fetched I wouldíve been locked out of the game.
G3: he mulls and I have chalice. Robots do the rest.
2-0

R3: ID for best price support for the both of us
Turns out this was the mirror. We played a game for fun, which I won thanks to revoker on his steel overseer, vault skirge and ravage which race a lodestone golem.
2-0-1

TLK
06-05-2018, 01:07 PM
Awesome report and congrats on the amazing finish. Any changes you'd make to the deck after running it through a long event?

Johanovich
06-05-2018, 02:44 PM
Awesome report and congrats on the amazing finish. Any changes you'd make to the deck after running it through a long event?

Not really, I played in a 50-people tournament last sunday with the same list. I'm going to test some versions with traxos and karn maindeck and maybe one more golem, but for now I'm still really happy with this list.
Did not lose a match untill the finals where I lost against a good friend of mine who was on UW miracles (and is one of the best players of Belgium in my opinion).

Played six rounds of swiss
R1: grixis delver (2-1)
R2: BUG delver (2-0)
R3: moon stompy (2-0)
R4: UW control (2-0)
R5: ID
R6: ID
QF: UB delver (2-0)
SF: czech pile (2-0)
F: UW miracles (0-2)

Three of the matches are on camera: the first round game 3, SF and F.
The top 8 decklists should appear on MTGtop8 within the next few weeks.

There were 3 or 4 other steel stompy players, at least one was playing traxos. They also did relatively well but did not make it to top 8. The top 8 was UW miracles, steel stompy, czech pile, grixis delver, UB delver, BR reanimator, elves and goblins.

owerbart
06-05-2018, 04:06 PM
Hi first post here. Was going to ask the same thing, if it wouldn't be cool to run traxos in these type of steel stompy decklists.i I mean everyone talks about nu-Karn but Traxos is a 7/7 4 mana trampler, which exceed what the big beefs in the format are (Angler, goes thru TNN)

Jorruk
06-06-2018, 03:50 AM
Hi,

Actually I'm not very sure about traxos. For sure it is a fast clock but with a field full of strix I don't know ... I mean it's not like all the other threat we have, they are all quite cheap so it's not a big deal to lose them compared to traxos.
On the other hand, even if it is blocked and deathtouched that will still be 6 dmg and you still have the option to have a balista to previously kill the strix.

It needs testing ! :p

Johanovich
06-06-2018, 05:04 AM
Hi first post here. Was going to ask the same thing, if it wouldn't be cool to run traxos in these type of steel stompy decklists.i I mean everyone talks about nu-Karn but Traxos is a 7/7 4 mana trampler, which exceed what the big beefs in the format are (Angler, goes thru TNN)

My main problem with it is that it's a terrible topdeck later in the game. It enters the battlefield tapped and there is no real guarantee to untap it next turn.
That's why I think you have to run him together with karn. Then karn can provide the necessary cards to keep untapping him.

owerbart
06-09-2018, 12:44 AM
My main problem with it is that it's a terrible topdeck later in the game. It enters the battlefield tapped and there is no real guarantee to untap it next turn.
That's why I think you have to run him together with karn. Then karn can provide the necessary cards to keep untapping him.

I get you. Congrats on your great finishes Johanovich :)

I'm trying to optimize a traxos build, currently trying either with a MUD base or with a Steel Stompy Base. I'll post the decklist when i have something cooked up.

Ciubulu
06-10-2018, 03:49 AM
I'm trying to optimize a traxos build, currently trying either with a MUD base or with a Steel Stompy Base. I'll post the decklist when i have something cooked up.

Traxos is a great card but needs a dedicated build. I had some success with a 4x voltaic construct 4x traxos 4x grim monolith (and 4x karns md) build but itís less explosive and too much dependant on getting 4 mana thatís not always easy.

Iím trying a skirge-less build with the 4th revoker +1 land +2 welding jar and 2x hangarback walkers instead of 2 thorns.
I found thorns a little too easy to play around. I kept 2 because itís great vs miracles and combo decks leaving the other 2 in my sb.
Skirge is a cool card (somewhat unexpected) but itís not a good topdeck and its impact on the game depends too much if you have an overseer or an equipment (I use sword of fire and ice but jitte is a valid option).

Still trying to figure how sb properly but deck is cool and Iím having a lot of fun with it lately

Johanovich
06-14-2018, 07:16 AM
Here are some sideboarding strategies for some of the decks Iíve faced so far (they are somewhat flexible, so I donít adhere strictly to this myself especially when it comes to siding stuff out). I'll add some more in the near future:

Vs grixis delver, UB delver and BUG delver (the more grindy delver decks with DRS)
-4 thorn
-3 revoker
-2 lodestone
+3 ensnaring bridge
+2 karn
+2 ratchet bomb
+2 spellskite
Another option would be to only side in 2 bridge and cut metamorph if you want to keep lodestone in.


Vs burn and really aggro delver decks such as RUG delver and UR delver
-1 metamorph
-3 revoker
+2 spellskite
+2 ratchet bomb

Vs elves
-4 thorn
+2 ratchet bomb
+2 spellskite

Vs death and taxes
-4 thorn
-1 metamorph
+2 ratchet bomb
+2 spellskite
+1 spyglass

Vs sneaky show
-1 jitte
-2 etched champion
-4 vault skirge
+3 bridge
+2 spellskite
+2 spyglass

Vs storm
-2 etched champion
-1 metamorph
-1 jitte
+2 ratchet bomb
+2 spellskite

Vs Czech pile, BUG control, grixis control
-3 revoker
-4 thorn
+2 spellskite
+2 karn
+2 ratchet bomb
+1 spyglass

Vs blade control
-3 revoker
-4 thorn
+2 spellskite
+2 karn
+1 ratchet bomb
+2 spyglass

Vs eldrazi (havenít faced this yet, but this seems like a decent strategy)
-4 chalice
-4 thorn
+3 bridge
+2 spellskite
+2 karn
+1 ratchet bomb

Edit: forgot spellskites in delver matchups

Alex_UNLIMITED
06-22-2018, 07:59 AM
Here are some sideboarding strategies for some of the decks Iíve faced so far (they are somewhat flexible, so I donít adhere strictly to this myself especially when it comes to siding stuff out). I'll add some more in the near future:

Vs grixis delver, UB delver and BUG delver (the more grindy delver decks with DRS)
-4 thorn
-3 revoker
+3 ensnaring bridge
+2 karn
+2 ratchet bomb

Vs burn and really aggro delver decks such as RUG delver and UR delver
-1 metamorph
-3 revoker
+2 spellskite
+2 ratchet bomb

Vs elves
-4 thorn
+2 ratchet bomb
+2 spellskite

Vs death and taxes
-4 thorn
-1 metamorph
+2 ratchet bomb
+2 spellskite
+1 spyglass

Vs sneaky show
-1 jitte
-2 etched champion
-4 vault skirge
+3 bridge
+2 spellskite
+2 spyglass

Vs storm
-2 etched champion
-1 metamorph
-1 jitte
+2 ratchet bomb
+2 spellskite

Vs Czech pile, BUG control, grixis control
-3 revoker
-4 thorn
+2 spellskite
+2 karn
+2 ratchet bomb
+1 spyglass

Vs blade control
-3 revoker
-4 thorn
+2 spellskite
+2 karn
+1 ratchet bomb
+2 spyglass

Vs eldrazi (havenít faced this yet, but this seems like a decent strategy)
-4 chalice
-4 thorn
+3 bridge
+2 spellskite
+2 karn
+1 ratchet bomb

Why do you prefer Karn, Scion of Urza instead of Spellskite against grindy Delver decks?

gngpostalsrvc
06-24-2018, 12:43 PM
Here are some sideboarding strategies for some of the decks Iíve faced so far (they are somewhat flexible, so I donít adhere strictly to this myself especially when it comes to siding stuff out). I'll add some more in the near future:

Thanks a lot for this information, Johanovich! I'd be interested to know how you would sideboard against Miracles, Mono-Red Prison, and Maverick too.

Johanovich
06-28-2018, 07:49 AM
Thanks a lot for this information, Johanovich! I'd be interested to know how you would sideboard against Miracles, Mono-Red Prison, and Maverick too.

Haven't played against maverick yet. So not sure what the best sideboarding would be. I'd imagine spellskite and ratchet bomb coming in, maybe spyglass depending on their build. Thorns and metamorph probably go out.

Vs Miracles and other UW control
-4 thorn
-1 metamorph
-3 revoker
+2 spellskite
+2 karn
+2 ratchet bomb
+2 spyglass


Vs moon stompy
-4 chalice
-1 metamorph
-1 revoker
+2 karn
+2 ratchet bomb
+2 spellskite

Usually postboard against decks with a lot of creature removal, I prefer to have spyglass over revokers as they provide info and are a bit more difficult to get off the table. A 2/1 isn't a very impressive body but you have to have it maindeck to not die to certain stuff. I boarded out all revokers in favor of spyglass against moon stompy in birmingham, but I've reconsidered in the meantime and I think I prefer the option of shutting down their manarocks as well as their planeswalkers. Their removal is abrade and fiery confluence anyway, and both revokers and spyglass die to those.

Some other matchups:

Vs the mirror
-4 chalice
-4 thorn
+2 ratchet bomb
+2 spyglass
+2 spellskite
+2 karn

Vs sneaky show
-1 jitte
-2 etched champion
-4 vault skirge
+3 bridge
+2 spellskite
+2 spyglass

Vs infect
-1 metamorph
-1 vault skirge
-3 revoker
+2 spellskite
+2 spyglass
+1 ratchet bomb

Vs turbo depths
-4 thorn
-2 etched champion
-1 jitte
+2 spellskite
+2 sorcerous spyglass
+3 bridge

Vs dredge
-3 revoker
-1 metamorph
-2 etched champion
-2 vault skirge
+4 leyline
+2 spellskite
+2 ratchet bomb



Why do you prefer Karn, Scion of Urza instead of Spellskite against grindy Delver decks?

Looks like I forgot to add a few lines to the strategy. Spellskite definitely should be in there as well. I'll edit my post to correct this.

Alex_UNLIMITED
06-29-2018, 07:50 AM
Looks like I forgot to add a few lines to the strategy. Spellskite definitely should be in there as well. I'll edit my post to correct this.
I've read it, thank you very much.




Vs grixis delver, UB delver and BUG delver (the more grindy delver decks with DRS)
-4 thorn
-3 revoker
-2 lodestone
+3 ensnaring bridge
+2 karn
+2 ratchet bomb
+2 spellskite
Another option would be to only side in 2 bridge and cut metamorph if you want to keep lodestone in.

What about to side out Karakas against grindy Delver decks? It's a pretty useless land against them.

Johanovich
06-29-2018, 06:45 PM
What about to side out Karakas against grindy Delver decks? It's a pretty useless land against them.

Yeah that would be a good alternative if you play 21 lands like my usual list. I personally wouldn't go down below 20 lands.
Same goes for some of the other matchups where karakas is kinda useless.

NickDoom
07-02-2018, 08:06 AM
This deck work with mox diamond?

I dont have mox opal

Alex_UNLIMITED
07-02-2018, 06:31 PM
What will be the consequences of the ban of Deathrite Shaman and Gitaxian Probe for this deck?

H
07-02-2018, 06:40 PM
This deck work with mox diamond?

I dont have mox opal

Not as currently configured. You don't have enough actual lands to support it.


What will be the consequences of the ban of Deathrite Shaman and Gitaxian Probe for this deck?

Deathrite? Mana denial is better. Probe? Combo is a little slower, I guess.

All in all, a win for this deck.

Man of Steel
07-03-2018, 12:56 PM
less K Command is a big Win


More Miracles is a bit of a loss

We Need Sideboard changes, because this deck was Build (at least by me) to beat drs

aromaticity
07-03-2018, 02:53 PM
I've been iffy about having Thorns in the mainboard, but after the bannings I have a feeling it'll be a lot easier to justify.

The_Spoonerman
07-03-2018, 06:18 PM
I've been iffy about having Thorns in the mainboard, but after the bannings I have a feeling it'll be a lot easier to justify.

Agreed. I think the card I'll probably be flexing on is Revoker. DRS was my #1 revoker target on a lot of occasions.

Mister_Lamp
07-07-2018, 10:51 AM
FNM Report

Greetings,

So a quick background, I played Legacy affinity for years but recently took about 5 years off from Legacy due to legacy community where I was playing and amount of time I could play magic. But a month ago I got really excited about getting back into Legacy here in Chicago. So I built up an affinity list and wasnt happy with it. I've always wanted to play STAX in vintage and once I saw Steel Stompy I really wanted to play that too. So given that, I have not acquired all the cards yet but here's my list to date:

4x Ravager
3x Etched Champion
3x Lodestone Golem
3x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Steel Overseer
4x Vault Skirge
3x Walking Balista

4x Chalice of the Void
2x Cranial Plating
3x Lotus Petal
4x Mox Opal
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
3x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Umezawa's Jitte

3x Ancient Tomb
4x Darksteel Citadel
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Seat of the Synod
1x Vault of Whispers
3x Wasteland

Sideboard:
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
2x Spellskite
4x Tormod's Crypt
2x Ensaring Bridge
3x Winter Orb
2x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas


Round 1: RUG 2-0
My opening 7 was pretty week to a lot of decks, not lock pieces, just creatures and mana. I ended up double wastelanding him and equipinging a Jitte onto a Champ. He never got to 2 mana and struggled to keep up with me.
Game 2 i sol land into Chalice, he FOWs. I got Thorn on turn 2 and then play 2 skirge's. They beat down for a while until he flips a delver. I drop ravager and sac a few lands to make one of them a 4/4. I ride that to victory.

Round 2: RUG 1-2
He opens with Delver into Delver and then turn 4 mongoose. Oh, also had daze and FOW to stop anything relevant I tried to do...
Game 2 I stick 2 golems off some fast mana and he has 2 delvers again. I slam a spellskite and than eats up a few bolts. Then I finally find a champ and ride that in for the win. I debated a ton during this game of trading my 5/3 for a 3/2 flier. Eventually I just slammed in because it would've been lethal if he didnt block. But I feel the tax of golem on him was pretty harsh.Thoughts here?
Game 3 I had no chance, I mulled to 5 and turn 2 ancient grudge on my vault of whispers didnt help at all. So I got run over by a flipped delver and tarmo.

Round 3: Miracles 2-0
My opponent is pretty solid player and incredibly nice guy. He was the first person to greet me into the Legacy community via FB when I was digging around for places to play. We've played over 20 games together over past few weeks so he thinks he can crush me. But I read @Johanovich posts and learned how to play the deck better vs Miracles. =)
Anyways, game 1 he terminus on turn 3 getting rid of my 2 skirge's and an overseer. My hand was stacked so I slammed champ and a plating to ride that to victory.
Game 2 was a ton of life loss to Ancient Tomb but after 2 terminus I find a plating on a skirge and ride that to victory. Jamming 2 threats and waiting for them to deal with them seems like the best line of play. But definitely a high skill match.

Round 4: Burn 2-1
Playing for prizes here. We only pay out for X-1
Game one I go waste, petal, petal, chalice of the void. She stares at me and says, "What deck are you on... oh and I can't beat that." Scoops
Game 2, I'm pretty sure I misplayed here. I raced an Eidolon and a Goblin Guide with 2 skirge, a champ and a Sofi. He had a timely Smash to Smithereens on my Sofi too. I never killed the Eidolon because I felt she had to keep taking life from it to. Fireblast to the face ended the game.
Game 3 was insane. I literally ended the game on turn 20 with a chalice on 1, 2 and 3. I had 2 golems, spellskite, 2 champs, 4 overseers and 3 skirge's in my hand. She had her 3 bridge down and a seal of fire. I finally rip a balista and ride that to victory over the next 2 turns with 8 overseer activations and a ton of mana. Well fought battle for 5th place.

I ended up picking of 20 packs in store credit for my efforts.

Cards I acquired / changed.
I took out Tezz for 2 ratchet bomb
I have 4 leyline of the void in the mail
I will pickup the 4th wasteland and thorn some time this week in Chicago. The store's I've been to didnt have the tempest ones in stock.
I added in 2 rachet bombs as well. They seem soooooo good in a meta full of RUG.
Picking up City of Traitors will have to wait a few months, hopefully build up enough store credit to get one or two and then snag the last 2 on a splurge.

mambosong
07-08-2018, 12:46 PM
This deck work with mox diamond?

I dont have mox opal

It's definitely playable with mox diamond. I have been running diamond over opal for the last month or so because opal felt very lack luster (no T1 mana, very fragile to disruption, redundant copies are almost as bad as diamond), and I've also found it to be a less fragile source of mana (removal turns off metalcraft quite easily in this deck since there aren't enough 0-drops like modern affinity). The correct configuration is likely some sort of split of mox diamond/opal/petal but I haven't tested that out just yet.

I'm testing out a rather spicy list atm that includes 3 karn, 2 traxos, 2 jitte, 2 smugglers copters, 3 mox diamonds, and 3 thorn and man it's a hoot. Smuggler's copter is actually quite good in this deck, and I think it really should be tested more as a filter option (cycles extra opals/diamonds and is an aggressive flyer)

Johanovich
07-10-2018, 05:27 AM
less K Command is a big Win


More Miracles is a bit of a loss

We Need Sideboard changes, because this deck was Build (at least by me) to beat drs

What changes are you thinking of?


Agreed. I think the card I'll probably be flexing on is Revoker. DRS was my #1 revoker target on a lot of occasions.

I don't think you want to remove too many revokers. If stoneblade and goblins are gonna make a comeback then you want to be able to revoke vial, jitte, stoneforge, jace, trashmaster and some other stuff.


It's definitely playable with mox diamond. I have been running diamond over opal for the last month or so because opal felt very lack luster (no T1 mana, very fragile to disruption, redundant copies are almost as bad as diamond), and I've also found it to be a less fragile source of mana (removal turns off metalcraft quite easily in this deck since there aren't enough 0-drops like modern affinity). The correct configuration is likely some sort of split of mox diamond/opal/petal but I haven't tested that out just yet.

I'm testing out a rather spicy list atm that includes 3 karn, 2 traxos, 2 jitte, 2 smugglers copters, 3 mox diamonds, and 3 thorn and man it's a hoot. Smuggler's copter is actually quite good in this deck, and I think it really should be tested more as a filter option (cycles extra opals/diamonds and is an aggressive flyer)

Personally I don't like the looter scooter. I've tried it for a while before switching to champion. I thought the idea of shutting something down with revoker and then using that revoker to crew was great, but I ended up not really liking the card because it costs more with thorns and often got stuck in my hand because everything else just felt better to cast. I'm ok with paying extra for a jitte because that card is just bonkers as soon as it gets active, but the same cannot be said for copter in my opinion.

imaginaryunit
07-11-2018, 02:00 PM
What are people's thoughts on some combination of Tangle Wire, Winter Orb and/or Sphere of Resistance in the 75 for Men of Steel, post-ban?

Sisyphos
07-12-2018, 01:59 AM
What are people's thoughts on some combination of Tangle Wire, Winter Orb and/or Sphere of Resistance in the 75 for Men of Steel, post-ban?

Tangle Wire has been unplayable in Legacy outside of decks like Stax that use the ~2 turns it buys you to set up a hardlock for years. Nothing has changed there.

Sphere of Resistance is a significantly worse as two mana disruption than Chalice and Thorn. Only a consideration if the post-ban format turns out to be sooooo heavy in fast combo decks that you absolutely want more then 8 of these effects. And even in that case I'd probably play some other form of combo hate as relying only on artifact hate leaves you open to counter-hate like Hurkyl's Recall.

Winter Orb is the most likely of the three to play a role, depending on the number and form of the control decks we will see. But if you want to use Winter Orb in those match-ups, you will probably have to think about changing the mana base as Winter Orb and manlands do not mix.

All three also suffer from being non-creature spells. The deck relies on the synergies between its creatures. During deck construction as well as during boarding, you can't just cut creatures for spells. No matter how many Winter Orbs, Chalice of the Voids and Thorn of Amethyst you have, if your only clock is one Vault Skirge or one Arcbound Ravager, the opponent will draw his answers before you kill him.

Mister_Lamp
07-12-2018, 10:31 AM
So this coming weekend I'm attending a team event with 2 buddies. It's a mix of standard, modern and legacy and I'm piloting Steel Stompy.

Here's my current list:

4x Ravager
2x Etched Champion
2x Lodestone Golem
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
3x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Steel Overseer
4x Vault Skirge
3x Walking Balista

4x Chalice of the Void
1x Cranial Plating
3x Lotus Petal
3x Mox Opal
1x SoFI
4x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Umezawa's Jitte

4x Ancient Tomb
3x Darksteel Citadel
2x Inventor's Fair
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Seat of the Synod
4x Wasteland

Sideboard:
2x Spellskite
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Sorcerous Spyglass
2x Karn, Scion of Urza


Since I don't have a karakas or City of Traiitors, I've decided on this mana compilation.

My question is, would wastes, crystal vein, seat of synod or an additional citadel be best to replace them (for the time being).

Also, any input on the list is welcome as well.

aslidsiksoraksi
07-12-2018, 12:52 PM
I think I'd play Blinkmoth Nexus or Crystal Vein before Seat of the Synod, or maybe even the 4th Petal. T1 chalice is a lot better than t2. Tho if you want artifact lands, Vault of Whispers would make more sense as we have black cards but not blue.

aromaticity
07-12-2018, 02:55 PM
This deck isn't quite like Bomberman or Eldrazi stompy, where you're planning on consistently casting 3+ CMC cards. Because of that and because of how many two drops we run, I think City of Traitors 'fits' better in this deck than in other stompy shells. I can have a hand of 2x City of Traitors as my only land, and although not ideal, it's perfectly serviceable and will lead to a very explosive opener.

Given that, I think Crystal Vein seems like a pretty serviceable budget replacement. I also like the suggestion of maxing out on Lotus Petal.


I'm currently running Johanovich's GP list with Hangarback Walkers over the Champions and Metamorph and +1 land -1 petal (though I think I'm going switch back to 3 petal) and it's absolutely stellar. I definitely liked the Champions and Metamorph as options, especially since Metamorph has a lot of unexpected utility as a tutor target, but I'm going for a more consistent/focused MB I guess. Walker serves a similar purpose to Champion in that it's an amazing card vs fair decks, but it also provides a bit of extra utility here and there - resistance to board wipes, combo potential with Ravager, extra fliers vs stuff like Marit Lage. I also think being a potential two drop is a pretty big bonus given what I mentioned above about City of Traitors.

Mr. Headshot
07-12-2018, 05:00 PM
I've read a big part of the thread, but i couldn't find anything about Gaea's Cradle, Master of Etherium and the new card Sai, Master Thopterist.

What's your opinion on these cards? On first sight they look strong... Guys, your advice is much appreciated!

Mister_Lamp
07-12-2018, 09:20 PM
Thanks @aslidsiksoraksi and @aromaticity. Both comments make total sense to me. I was able to find 4 Crystal Veins in town so I'll run those this weekend. I'm super pumped and excited to see how our team, and specifically I, fair.

Sisyphos
07-13-2018, 08:11 AM
I've read a big part of the thread, but i couldn't find anything about Gaea's Cradle, Master of Etherium and the new card Sai, Master Thopterist.

What's your opinion on these cards? On first sight they look strong... Guys, your advice is much appreciated!

Gaea's Cradle does not help to cast T1 Chalice, Thorn or even a two drop creature. This deck is not elves. You don't have any one mana creatures to flood the board with.

Master of Etherium and Sai, Master Thopterist both require a blue splash. Yes the deck can support splash colors, but they come at the cost of consistency. Master of Etherium can be good, but only in match-ups where you don't have to worry about sweepers from the opponent. This deck does not play like Affinity. You are not a rush-em-Aggro-style of deck. The list does not have as many random free artifacts (Artifact Lands, Springleaf Drum etc.) as Affinity so your Masters will never be as big or as good as in Affinity, unless you have already popped a Hangarback Walker for 5+ but in that case you have 5+ Thopters, just kill your opponent.

Sai has only been released today, so probably very little testing has been done with him so far. I think he will be stronger in a Tezzerator style deck then in here. First there's the splash/consistency issue again. Than he does not play well with the way the deck wants to curve out. You want to play T1 disruption, T2 Overseer, T3 2 artifact creatures in the best case scenario. In order to do so, you will need to often play you're artifact acceleration early before you have the time to play Sai. He doesn' fit well into the curve outlined. If you play him on T2, your Overseer won't be active till T4. If you play him on T3 after Overseer or Hangarback, you further reduce the pay off you gain from the ability. Also Sai himself is not an artifact creature, so it has negative synergy with Overseer and Ravager. There is a reason why the deck plays zero non-artifact spells.

Mr. Headshot
07-13-2018, 03:57 PM
All valid points!

Captain Hammer
07-19-2018, 12:34 AM
Didn't realize this was already a thread.


Vintage Ravager Shops is dominating whereas in legacy, the deck completely failed to launch.

I think the deck should stick as close to Vintage Ravager Shops (and Dragon Stompy) as possible, stay low casting cost and play tons of disruption, if it wants to make a mark on the format...

Here is what I would go with...

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Darksteel Citadel
3 Mox Opal
3 Lotus Petal

4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Steel Overseer
4 Foundry Inspector
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Traxos, Scourge of Kroog

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst

4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Metalworker
2 Walking Ballista

Other cards to consider...
Chief of the Foundry
Phyrexian Metamorph
Phyrexian Revoker
Umejawa's Jitte
Tangle Wire
Fleetwheel Cruiser
Karn, Scion of Urza

Johanovich
07-19-2018, 05:52 AM
Didn't realize this was already a thread.


Vintage Ravager Shops is dominating whereas in legacy, the deck completely failed to launch.

I think the deck should stick as close to Vintage Ravager Shops (and Dragon Stompy) as possible, stay low casting cost and play tons of disruption, if it wants to make a mark on the format...

Here is what I would go with...

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Darksteel Citadel
3 Mox Opal
3 Lotus Petal

4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Steel Overseer
4 Foundry Inspector
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Traxos, Scourge of Kroog

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst

4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Metalworker
2 Walking Ballista

Other cards to consider...
Chief of the Foundry
Phyrexian Metamorph
Phyrexian Revoker
Umejawa's Jitte
Tangle Wire
Fleetwheel Cruiser
Karn, Scion of Urza

What do you mean by "completely failed to launch"? It's already a good legacy deck and it's been putting up decent results both pre- and post-ban:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32532-Results-and-Meta-Post-DRS-Probe-Banning

Sisyphos
07-19-2018, 09:07 AM
What do you mean by "completely failed to launch"? It's already a good legacy deck and it's been putting up decent results both pre- and post-ban:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32532-Results-and-Meta-Post-DRS-Probe-Banning

Just ignore him.... He also claims that the way to go is to stay with low casting costs while at the same time posting a list that has 8 3drops and 12 4drops resulting in an average converted mana cost of 1,93 while dropping down to 16 land + 6 mana artifacts...

Just for comparisons sake to show how absurd his post is: the more standard lists run 0-2 3drops (Etched Champion) and 4-6 4drops (Lodestone Golem and sometims Karn, Scion of Urza) resulting in an average converted mana cost of about 1,2 and still playing 21 lands + 6mana artifacts... He obviously doesn't know what he's talking about.

mambosong
07-21-2018, 01:51 AM
Hey Everyone,

Went 3-1 last night with a fairly unorthodox list as I wanted to test some cards that I haven't seen listed by anyone and so far they have felt amazing.

Here are the match-ups
2-0/2-1 (I can't remember): Black Eldrazi
2-0: Rug Delver
2-0: Lands
1-2: S&S

Here's the list

4x Steel overseer
4x Ravager
4x walking ballista
2x Revoker
1x Vault Skirge
2x Traxos
2x hangarback walker
2x Smuggler's Copter

3x Karn Scion of Urza

4x Chalice of the Void
3x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Jitte
3x Mox Diamond
4x Lotus Petal

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory
1x Inventor's Fair
3x Darksteel citadel

Karn is the real deal as many of us have concluded to, I think it is essential to play darksteel citadel especially with more goyfs running around as it grows our token by 1 (which has a large significance)

I have stated my opinion here before, but I played with mox diamonds instead of opals because opals have consistently under-performed for me in the past. Mox diamond helps us a lot to bust out T1 Chalices and T2 Karns very consistently.

Smuggler's copter was an MVP that night, the extra card filtering is very relevant in a deck that otherwise has no card selection. To be able to turn lands into threats and vice-versa when needed gives some resilience against hate.

Jitte was very great against the RUG delver and eldrazi match ups

Traxos has been win more so far, usually by the time i resolve him I have already won the game. I want to test more with him, as I did get a concessional win from just resolving him when hell bent.

mambosong
07-21-2018, 01:55 AM
Personally I don't like the looter scooter. I've tried it for a while before switching to champion. I thought the idea of shutting something down with revoker and then using that revoker to crew was great, but I ended up not really liking the card because it costs more with thorns and often got stuck in my hand because everything else just felt better to cast. I'm ok with paying extra for a jitte because that card is just bonkers as soon as it gets active, but the same cannot be said for copter in my opinion.

That's a fair opinion, I've been actually playing it turn 1 more often than I'd expected, only to follow it up with revoker-swing-loot, and then another 2 drop. I only play 2 which I think is the perfect number. The flying is super nice since it can carry a jitte over goyfs while getting some real damage in to race. But honestly, the card selection helps with the mid game grind a ton.

Mister_Lamp
07-23-2018, 08:34 PM
What's the plan if white decks start packing Stony Silence. It seems like DnT and Maverick may be on the rise. Obv they need to play around their vials and equipment. But miracles could also jam Stony. Do we just ignore it and beat with construct tokens from karn and golems?

Barachai
07-23-2018, 10:22 PM
What's the plan if white decks start packing Stony Silence. It seems like DnT and Maverick may be on the rise. Obv they need to play around their vials and equipment. But miracles could also jam Stony. Do we just ignore it and beat with construct tokens from karn and golems?

Aside from the fact that anyone can play Null Rod; you do what any good aggro deck does and beat them to death. Also DnT isn't likely to play Null Rod, far more likely to come out of a Delver deck or even miracles than DnT/Maverick.

Man of Steel
07-24-2018, 06:19 AM
I think the meta has shifted to a Point, where the man of steel Need to pack a lot of etched Champions

I think 3 can be the right number

Good against sfm and rug delver and it also Forces Terminus out of miracles

Mister_Lamp
07-24-2018, 09:15 AM
@barachai - thanks for that feedback. I took a 5 year hiatus from legacy and had a brain fart on one of the staple cards of the format.

@Man of Steel - I've been running 2 champs for the last few weeks. I rode them to victor in a few games 2 weekends ago at a team event. One time I even came from behind by making my metamorph a copy of batterskull and then equipping to champ to survive an onslaught of white creatures. I'm unsure if 2 or 3 is the right number because you could have draws with champ, champ, skirge, chalice, land, land, sol land. If chalice is forced or dazed, the hand doesn't do much in terms of slowing down opponents. Sadly, will probably be run over / be a turn or 2 too slow compared to other decks. But I do really like champ in the grindier matchups.

What list would you play with 3 champs?

contra
07-24-2018, 07:51 PM
Picked the deck up online w/ some extra tix. Just went 4-1 losing to moon stompy which feels like a positive matchup - however I punted a game and got locked under a bridge.

Should I be bringing in my bridges for RUG Delver?

https://i.imgur.com/GGDg0VF.png

Qernavak
07-27-2018, 03:11 AM
If you're looking into some ideas for a variation of the deck for this weekend, this is what I'm piloting in the last few days, with great success including a few 4-1s and one 5-0:

https://i.imgur.com/N9AZMVR.jpg

Will probably post another 5-0 next week with the same list.

I'm no longer carrying Karn since the format is way faster: Show and Tell, RUG Delver, Storm, Elves.... sheez. I had a rough time adjusting after the bans, but I think the online metagame has stabilized and this version of the deck is what seems most suitable for it.

It's pretty obvious that my main concern is curving the Show and Tell matchup, with 11 sideboard cards.

I ditched Leyline for Faerie Macabre because the Fae also helps on the RUG matchup by making the goyfs/mongeese smaller, or by purging an ancient grudge

Man of Steel
07-27-2018, 04:04 AM
i think the last two lists posted pay not enough respect to red sneak attack, sneak & Show or storm.
in my opinion, this deck Needs thorn in the main and i think that etched Champion is better aginst tarmogoyf and sfm than the walker



i have one question, how good was chief of the foundry? I think about a couple of platings

contra
07-27-2018, 09:27 AM
i think the last two lists posted pay not enough respect to red sneak attack, sneak & Show or storm.
in my opinion, this deck Needs thorn in the main and i think that etched Champion is better aginst tarmogoyf and sfm than the walker

Are you still playing your MKM list in the new format? I'm gonna start a league with that 75 and I'll post back.

Funny enough I just grabbed that previous list from Qernavak and played it to a 4-1 finish without ever touching the deck before. It seemed good but I drew pretty hot.

Qernavak
07-27-2018, 12:10 PM
i think the last two lists posted pay not enough respect to red sneak attack, sneak & Show or storm.


I'll confess Red Sneak Attack is almost nonexistent in the mtgo metagame, so I didn't tune the above list with that specific deck in mind.
There's a lot of respect for Sneak & Show: MD - 3x Revokers, 1x Karakas; Post sideboard: +11 cards: +1 Karakas, +1 Revoker, +3 Spyglass, +2 Thorns, +4 Meteor Golem. This strategy has won me almost every post sideboard game vs. Sneak and Show
I agree, I have disrespected storm by not having main thorns and only 2 thorns in the sideboard, and no ratchet bomb at all. But I had to optimize for the narrow presence of Storm in the mtgo metagame. On the other hand, the 4 chalices, and 3 revokers in the main ensure that this matchup is still favored towards Steel Stompy.




in my opinion, this deck Needs thorn in the main and i think that etched Champion is better aginst tarmogoyf and sfm than the walker


There is way too many creature decks around nowadays, which is way I decided to cut Thorns. Delver with Daze backup and wasteland follow up seems to be the play du jour. If the metagame shifts towards more sneak and show, miracles, storm, then I would definitely bring Thorns back, and perhaps into the main.
I agree that Etched Champion is better vs. Goyf and SFM. On the other hand, I have been favorable in the Goyf matchups. I do have trouble with SFM, and usually rely on the combination of Walker/Ravager to solve me that problem. I have tried Etched Champion and I do like it a lot; my one big gripe is that it would require Equipment cards to make maximum use of it, and I haven't had much success lately with that strategy.




i have one question, how good was chief of the foundry? I think about a couple of platings


Chief of the Foundry has been... just good enough. Think about activating Overseer just once... that's how it feels. It is specially good after dropping a Skirge on turn 1 and follow it up with a Chief. It also makes your Ballistas survive after dealing with pesky threat, and the ability to recharge. My favorite thing about it is that it tilts the miracles matchup towards your favor: in this matchup you are require to not overextend your board, and doing so with any of your 1/1s is so slow and usually would mean eventual defeat. But Chief itself has more power, plus I can sometimes overextend because I know that I would get my value worth since all other creatures get the instant boost. Not to mention that with 8 creature lands, the miracles player need to deal with Chief as soon as possible.
Are you thinking about Cranial Plating?

aromaticity
07-27-2018, 12:44 PM
I'm not sure that I like Meteor Golem over Ensnaring Bridge as a whole. Golem is almost only relevant vs the card Show and Tell, whereas Bridge can come down preemptively to answer Sneak Attack. Bridge also gives you game against Marit Lage, and can be boarded in against decks who just have big dudes if wanted. I don't think being better against specifically S&T into Omniscience is worth the loss in versatility.

Qernavak
07-27-2018, 01:06 PM
I'm not sure that I like Meteor Golem over Ensnaring Bridge as a whole. Golem is almost only relevant vs the card Show and Tell, whereas Bridge can come down preemptively to answer Sneak Attack. Bridge also gives you game against Marit Lage, and can be boarded in against decks who just have big dudes if wanted. I don't think being better against specifically S&T into Omniscience is worth the loss in versatility.

I very much agree with you. To your last statement, there's a big asterisk, and that's "unless" S&T is a big percent of your meta. In my case, it is.

The problem I had with Ensnaring Bridge vs. Sneak and Show was that it didn't do enough. Yes, if they go SnT>Emrakul it was good, but in reality, they went SnT> Griselbrand, draw 7 then Abrade the bridge>win. Not to mention that either playing the Bridge or playing around the bridge meant that sometimes I had to curve the growth of my own creatures to stay below the bridge level, or the tempo lost by casting the bridge. So now I rely entirely on Golem to be "the" answer vs. SnT. Not to mention I have 9 post sideboard options to deal with Sneak Attack, in 4 revokers, 3 splyglass and 2 Karakas.

I completely agree that this "adjustment" comes with a great sacrifice of not having Bridge on other good matchups, like the ones you have just mentioned. But on the other hand, in the last 80 or so matches played, I have faced about 15-18% consistent Sneak and Show, while maybe 1 or 2 instances of TurboDepths and 1 or 2 of Lands.

aromaticity
07-27-2018, 02:54 PM
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/27-07-18-steel-stompy/?cb=1532716129

Here's the list I'm thinking of playing going forward. Changes from what I was playing before are -1 HBW, -1 Thorn, -1 Mox for +1 land, +2 Etched Champion. Sideboard I have +1 Karakas +1 Warping Wail -2 Spellskite, which I'm kind of unsure of.

I like 3x Petal to increase our chance of playing a two drop on turn one. Opal can't really do this unless you already have a petal - it acts more like a land than petal does. So -1 mox +1 land is me hedging a bit more for post-board games against fair decks where I'd rather have more actual lands than opal effects I think, without sacrificing the T1 chalice factor of petal.

Trimming a Thorn is kind of the same idea - just sets us up for slightly better G1s against fair decks. I liked Champion and HBW in the deck as cards which really shine against fair decks. Overall I think I prefer HBW for various reasons - I'd rather have a two drop than a three drop, it's better vs fliers, it's better vs unfair decks and gives us sick combo potential with ravager. However, Etched can hold back cards like Goyf and KotR forever and is also really solid against opposing equipment. So for now I'll try 2x each.

It's definitely possible I'll miss having Spellskite, though I haven't really gotten much use out of the card so far. I have wanted just a removal spell, so maybe Dismember is a consideration.