[Deck] Train Wreck v.1.4 (Helldozer Returns: This Time It's Personal) [Archive]

TheInfamousBearAssassin

03-07-2006, 11:59 PM

I'm currently typing at the hotel computer, so I don't have time to expand on how mind-boggling ridiculously format-wrecking this deck is in all it's splenderifirous glory is before I leave to catch my taxi to the airport in... seven minutes.

Feel free to speculate. Or just build the damned thing and win games.

4x Polluted Delta
3x Bloodstained Mire
4x Bayou
11x Swamp
4x Cabal Coffers

3x Helldozer

2x Haunting Echoes
4x Pernicious Deed
3x Chainer's Edict
3x Mutilate
3x Decree of Pain
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Duress
3x Staff of Domination
3x Gaea's Blessing
2x Crime/Punishment

SB:
4x Infest
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Chains of Metistophiles
4x Grinning Demon

Edit: -1 Mire, -1 Overgrown Tomb, +2 Swamp, -4x Putrefy, -1 Chainer's Edict, +3 Decree of Pain, +2 Crime/Punishment, +Decided Sideboard

Edit: Dual-Land Draft list; 6th place;

Quick tournament summary;

Here's my list;

4x Bayou
4x Polluted Delta
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Cabal Coffers
10x Swamp

The Disruption:
4x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach

The Board Control:
4x Pernicious Deed
3x Mutilate
3x Chainer's Edict
3x Putrefy
2x Decree of Pain

The Utility:
3x Regrowth
3x Staff of Domination

The Kill:
3x Helldozer
2x Haunting Echoes

Sideboard:
4x Infest
4x Sphere of Resistance
1x Haunting Echoes
3x Undead Gladiator
2x Persecute*
1x Decree of Pain*

* Should've been Nether Voids, but Alix is a big phony.

The gameplan is to slowly dismantle your opponent's board. Matchups are something like;

Goblins- Unfavored (40%, maybe). -4 Duress, -3 Chainer's Edict, +4 Infest, +1 Haunting Echoes, +2 Undead Gladiator (or +1 Undead Gladiator, +1 DoP in the suboptimal board). The problem is the repeating hordes of men coming at you, and the relative slowness of board clearers. The post game plan is to keep the board clear for a while and then send off a hopefully devastating Echoes that shuts down their future plans of mayhem. Edit: After further testing, 45% is probably more accurate. The matchup isn't that unfavored. It's hard to tell if Punishment is better or worse than Putrefy in this matchup. It certainly kills Warchief a lot less effectively. It might be correct to side out Staff of Domination over Chainer's Edict, at least when one is on the play, as it gives an answer to turn 1 Lackey. On the draw it's probably better to keep Staff in, i.e., game 3.

Threshold- Favored (90%). Sideboard probably unnecessary, but probably -1 Pernicious Deed, -1 Helldozer, +1 Haunting Echoes, +1 Undead Gladiator. Everything in your deck is a must counter for them, and you literally run more creature kill than they have creatures. It is, incidentally, perfectly acceptable to Mutilate or Deed for one target in this matchup, although you'd prefer not to target Werebear as he and Pithing Needle are your only Putrefy targets in the White builds. The Red build is slightly more dangerous- perhaps only 85%- game 1, as they can randomly burn you out, but less dangerous games 2/3 as they don't have access to Armageddon.

Solidarity- Unfavored (25%). You have way too many dead cards game 1. Sideboard is -4 Deed, -3 Mutilate, -3 Chainer's Edict, -1 Putrefy, +4 Sphere of Resistance, +1 Haunting Echoes, +3 Nether Void, +3 Undead Gladiator. Putrefy is specifically the one dead card you keep in over others, even though they're probably all equally dead, as some terrible builds of Solidarity have a transitional sideboard into Chant-Stick. You could keep Deed in if they have the terrible transitional board into Confinement lock, but Confinement doesn't stop you from playing out Helldozer/Void/Sphere to just lock them out of winning anyway. Games 2 and 3 are much more favorable, at any rate, although not auto-win enough to make it a good matchup despite the loss of game 1.

Deadguy Ale- Not very thorough testing, but a negative matchup. LD hurts. A primary reason to consider boarding Compost or Skyshroud Blessing.

Rifter- Autowin. It's like Gro, only you have a shit load of answers to it. Except it doesn't matter, because you can kill all of their handful of kill conditions really easily, and they can't deal with shit tons of discard + Haunting Echoes. Sideboard: -2 Mutilate, -2 Putrefy, +3 Undead Gladiator, +1 Haunting Echoes.

Iggy Pop- 35% Pre-board, this is tough but not unwinnable. If you can get an Echoes or a Helldozer active before they get a lategame IGG you can win, obviously trying to keep up early game discard. Games 2 and 3 are very favorable, as the deck is much worse at fighting through or countering Void/Sphere than Solidarity. Nether Void essentially wins if it resolves.

Landstill- 98% Draw land and you're good. The closest thing to a danger is Crucible of Worlds, if they're still running it in their build. Assuming a lack of Wasteland recursion, it's very difficult for you to lose. They can't go aggro, and the board progressively turns better in your favor. Decree of Pain certainly kicks their ass, even if most of the cards they drew off of Standstill weren't going to be dead anyway. Even if they have the Wastelands, you can still play out a Coffers the turn you want to go double discard/Echoes for the win and just use it as a temporary mana boost.

Random Junkz- 85%. The salt of the earth. It's amazing just how few rogue decks have any shot in Hell of beating Train Wreck, which largely comes down to the fact that most rogue decks fall into the category of either.

a) Rolling over and dying to lots of creature hate,

or

b) Rolling over and dying to discard + Echoes.

URABAHN

03-08-2006, 07:32 AM

Is this something like MBC? Hammer your opponent's hand, kill their creatures, AND blow up their land?

Mordenkain

03-08-2006, 09:51 AM

Hmm..
I am gonna trust you IBA, but i have to say that this does look kinda janky. And yet, so consistent and powerful in some way. Like, every card you draw is a threat or removal of threats. I like.

I really, really like this, but i have a couple of questions:

1) Why Helldozer? I mean, I am sure there is some better win condition...
2) Staff of Domination? :confused:

- Mordenkain

Tao

03-08-2006, 10:07 AM

@ Mordenkain: I tested very much with this deck (Monoblack) and it beats Gro and Goblins preboard until they side in Armageddon. The Staff of Domination is key to the deck, no doubt. Test it, you will love it.

@IBA:
- Helldozer MD is bad. It gives your opponents swords, Wrath etc. useful cards. This is not extended, where no one can deal with a big creature.
- WTF are you thinking about removing Skeletal Scrying??? That's not the way to go, Scrying is so good.
- Consume Spirit: I always found it useful because of the lifegain, and because it kills your opponent

tpnp

03-08-2006, 10:10 AM

I really like this deck, I've had a similar build of it for a few weeks now based off the Richmond PTQ winning deck. Any reason the Decree of Pains were dropped from your list? I really liked them a lot in testing.

Tonight I will be playing a heavily modified version of the deck, hopefully it pans out. These are the changes I have made for tonight:

-2 Haunting Echoes (felt like a win-more card most of the time, but I do like the card a lot with mass removal like this deck)
-4 Hymn to Tourach (really good against control, but my meta has no control. I would rather have more creature hate here in MN)
-3 Regrowth (I never really tried this, has it been good so far?)
-2 Fetch Lands (I really didn't like topdecking land after land)
-1 Helldozer (only because I only own two, otherwise it would totally be in there)

+1 Staff (I always felt like I needed a Staff when I didn't have one)
+2 Masticore (some good stuff when you have Coffers in play)
+4 Solemn Simulacrum (gives you a land and replaces itself, only testing a slot)
+1 The Abyss (I own one, seemed like it could fit with the Masticores and Jens, I guess we'll see)
+2 Decree of Pain (I liked this from the PTQ deck, figured I would keep it in)
+2 Consume Spirit (random "I win" and some life gain if needed)

Again, I'm not proposing these changes to the deck since they are fairly significant, I'm just testing them out. I really like the deck though.

Amon Amarth

03-08-2006, 12:18 PM

How do you beat Goblins with this thing? All that expensive, sorcery speed spot removal plays against you.

Is this deck for a Thresh heavy meta or something? It would tear Thresholds face off. So much damn removal. So much goodness.

And WTF @ Staff of Domination? Is it there just to be a sink for Coffers?

Speaking of which, 4 Coffers? Are they really that integral to the deck that you would risk possible mana screw?

And lastly, did you make this deck just to show off your new Textless Putrefies? :P

Vimes

03-08-2006, 04:07 PM

Interesting, very interesting. I'd like to see a few more tools for dismantling combo in there, but otherwise, very nice. One question though: Why Helldozer? It seems like Kokusho or something would be better, and Consume Spirit has always been good in black decks, especially ones with 4x Cabal Coffers like your own.

dsg123456789

03-08-2006, 04:56 PM

Dr.ugs

03-08-2006, 05:32 PM

Unlike most other huge black threats, Helldozer disrupts the opponent so that they have little-no mana and that makes it difficult or even impossible for them to stabilize, come back, and win. Plus, it is a fucking HELL DOZER. That name is what pushes it over the edge. Intimidation ftw!

Helldozer is great.When it comes down you have 6 mana so the turn after it comes it usually knocks down 2 lands and at the same time it will deal 6 damage(mostly to a player since you cleared their board anyway).

I tested a similiar black control deck and I wanted to post it to CaND but then I decided to post Slumpy(mono black stompy) instead because I found that it was better during my testing.But instead of green I splashed Red for Burning wish and combined it with Shred Memory(it is like a 3 CC part-Diabolic Tutor which can also remove essential cards in graveyards..up to 4!).Getting Hymns against Control and Pyroclasms against aggro is hot.Boarding out one of them for more Disruption/Creature removal makes it even more funny.

@IBA:Do you have an obsession to slow decks with fat bombz?

dontbiteitholmes

03-09-2006, 04:53 AM

Could Living Wish be good in this deck? I'm currently a big fan of Grave-Shell Scarab (friends call him "Untouchable") and there are always plenty of sweet ass utility creatures to wish up.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

03-09-2006, 05:47 PM

I thought about Living Wish, but I'm not particularly fond of dismantling the board.

Regrowth has been absolutely amazing in this deck. It ups the number of discard effects, creature kill, or kill conditions as the situation dictates. It's what Twincast is to Solidarity.

Helldozer, as others correctly pointed out, is the only efficently costed Black threat with a disruption ability (aside from Visara, and I feel that the deck already has enough md creature kill). With Consume Spirits, for instance, I often discovered that against Solidarity I would be unable to do anything lethal with them before they could recover from discard. Helldozer can keep them off mana after a barrage of discard spells. You can even untap him with Staff.

Staff, incidentally, has been a great, versatile mana sink for a deck that generates ludicrous amounts of mana. It's a must-counter for control decks. I've used every function on it many times over.

re, Dr. Ugs: Yes.

Decree of Pain was omitted by accident. I'd want to run at least two. Putrefy is an easy cut to a 3-of, but the second cut is more difficult. I'm currently experimenting with -4 Duress, -1 Putrefy, +3 Wrench Mind, +2 Decree of Pain, as Wrench Mind is much stronger against Goblins, as hitting an Aether Vial is it's worst play, not it's best.

Threshold is essentially an auto win. So is almost any deck packing Wrath of God and Swords to Plowshares. Goblins is much more difficult, but not untenable with 7 ways to clear the board of red men by turn 4.

dontbiteitholmes

03-09-2006, 05:55 PM

Slay

03-09-2006, 06:08 PM

What matchups is Putrefy good in?

It seems like the card that's always useful, but is never good enough.
-Slay

dontbiteitholmes

03-09-2006, 08:06 PM

What matchups is Putrefy good in?

It seems like the card that's always useful, but is never good enough.
-Slay
IDK I might want Putrefy G2 against a lot of decks when they are like Pithing Needle naming Deed.

Citrus-God

03-11-2006, 04:44 AM

Slay

03-11-2006, 10:02 AM

He T1'd a PTQ in extended.
-Slay

Bane of the Living

03-11-2006, 03:47 PM

Well I feel like a dick being the only one to give negative feedback.

How do you survive goblins at all? Drawing Bayous and Coffers early on and/or in multiples is going to be very bad for you against Wastelands and Ports. Which I assure you, I still play.

You have absolutely 0 ways to handle a turn 1 lackey. You have almost no turn 2 answer since Edict = shit against gobs. Then on turn 3 you can give a timewalk with Deed, or kill a single gob with Putrefy. Am I missing something?

As cool as Helldozer is, I'd assume starting game with him in hand is like taking a Mulligan. Couldnt Echoes be enough of a win condition?

Finally, is green truely needed? It seems Regrowth would be fine as Nights Whisper or Phyrexian Arena, and Putrefy could become Innocent Blood. You already have Deed to deal with artifacts, except needle on deed....

I would love to open a large scale discussion on MBC because theres no reason it cant be played right now. Especially if Rifter continues popularity. Since your already playing green, have you put any thought on running Life from the Loam and a land based strategy? Instead of coffers you can play Lake of the Dead, which sometimes gives rediculous amounts of mana in no time at all. Then of course you have cycling lands as your amazing draw engine.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

03-12-2006, 01:14 AM

The deck beats Goblins by keeping the board clear. That's the entire game plan. It doesn't deal with turn 1 Lackey because it's more concerned about the things Lackey puts into play. Mutilate + Deed (which require Green mana, you're aware) is the deck's game plan, backed by Echoes, Helldozer, Staff, and trying to keep the hoard down. It's not a favorable game 1 matchup, but it's not unwinnable. 4 Plague in the Sideboard is helpful, however.

Slay

03-12-2006, 11:16 AM

No one seemed to answer my original question. What is Putrefy doing in the maindeck?
-Slay

Raider Bob

03-12-2006, 07:21 PM

Mordenkain

03-13-2006, 05:22 AM

Ok a few things. This deck looks very good, I can see where its Goblin matchup may be a little slow, but a turn 3 turn 4 deed with the hand disruption critter control should give it enough of a boost. This deck has its props in extended, and will port well into Legacy most likly, but can it port to Standard or is the power of deed really the lynchpin of the deck and would it even be able to compete in standard?

This is a forum for legacy, ports between extended and standard has no place here.

Anyways, does anybody know about this decks matchups?
I think there needs to be done something, to able to answer t1 lackey. And more fast removal. Like, Vendetta and Infest perhaps. I don't know.

Raider Bob

03-14-2006, 06:05 AM

@Mordenkain - LAF, aparently my Sarcasm didn't shine the way I ment it. IBA is the King of Magic(Just check Diablos's Sig)I just guessed that the king could make one deck to dominate all 3 of the suported formats. He is the King BTW.

Lego

03-14-2006, 08:49 PM

I was debating even posting this, but I figured someone might get a kick out of the fact that I played this deck with Burning Wish in it. It's called Burning Regrowth Mono-Black. I know, original.

Basically the deck doesn't need an answer to Turn 1 Lackey because once the Lackey drops something, you just clear everything away the next turn. You play a bunch of board sweepers, so you're not worried about Goblins overcommitting.

Bane of the Living

03-15-2006, 05:15 PM

How do you survive goblins at all? Drawing Bayous and Coffers early on and/or in multiples is going to be very bad for you against Wastelands and Ports. Which I assure you, I still play.

You have absolutely 0 ways to handle a turn 1 lackey. You have almost no turn 2 answer since Edict = shit against gobs. Then on turn 3 you can give a timewalk with Deed, or kill a single gob with Putrefy. Am I missing something?

I hate having to quote myself but I dont want retype this shit. to activate deed or play Mutilate on turn 4 you need to stay alive till then and have the mana to do so. That means not getting any of your non basics wasted or any of your land for Mutilate tapped by port. I did test this a bit and Im having just bad results. Then I added Innocent Blood.

-4 Chainers
+4 Blood

Chainers was just too slow, its a sorc and by the time you can flash it back you have enough late game reach anyways. Especially if playing with Regrowth.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

03-17-2006, 03:17 PM

If you're facing Wasteland, you wait to play your Green Sources until you have to. Even if you lay a third turn Bayou to play Deed and they Wasteland it, you can still play another land next turn and Deed for 3, which kills most of their threats.

Going after first turn Lackey is a terrible mistake. Lackey is a Red Herring. You'll get much better results trying to answer the horde than the Lackey. G2 and 3 are going to get much better as you bring in Plagues.

The deck won't work in Standard because none of the cards are available except Helldozer and Putrefy. I tried to build a decent Standard list utilizing Helldozer, but it's just not fast or powerful enough.

Putrefy is an efficent, instant speed answer to a great many threats. It's in there for versatility.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

03-23-2006, 12:42 AM

It occurs to me that this should be moved to Open, with an optimal decklist and very positive tournament results. Someone do something about that.

dontbiteitholmes

03-23-2006, 03:33 AM

It occurs to me that this should be moved to Open, with an optimal decklist and very positive tournament results. Someone do something about that.
Maybe if this was an Extended forum...
I still can't shake that feeling that this deck is missing something, anyone else get that feeling? Despite that the base seems solid. There's a good deck in there somewhere.

Tao

03-23-2006, 06:05 AM

. G2 and 3 are going to get much better as you bring in Plagues.

I think Hideous Laughter is a better answer to Gobbos than Plague, because in a control deck without creatures only the second Plague really hurts them.

Helldozer

03-23-2006, 11:19 AM

I think one can still do something about the mana. Is there any reason not to run Candelabra of Tawnos? It can go berserk with Cabal Coffers. Even Dark Ritual and the black High Tide, Bubbling Muck, seem maybe worth a second thought, regarding that this deck normally wont get to win before turn 7-10.

Alfred

03-23-2006, 07:43 PM

Jack, I must say that this deck is solid, and very fun to play. Regrowth is an absolute BEATING, and is worth it to splash green all by itself. The only problem that I'm having with the deck is the inefficiency of the draw engine i.e. Staff of Domination. I'm going to suggest something that might catch a bit of heat from some of the other members of this forum, but I've been testing it in this deck, and I've got to say, it's one of my FAVOURITE draw engines. The draw engine is courtesy of Kai Budde's BW BLOCK Control deck, and hasn't really been used since.

The draw engine that I'm talking about is Sensei's Divining Top + Journeyer's Kite. I can't say enough good things about Kite, the deck thinning and never missing a land drop is great. You could probably get away with running only 2, but 4 Sensei's Divining tops would be great on their own, seeing as though you run 8 fetchlands.

EDIT: Also, if you haven't already tested it, Stench of Evil is in my SB, and wins the game against Rifter and MWC. It could be the mid-game equivilant of Haunting Echoes.

Bane of the Living

03-24-2006, 07:29 PM

Hmm IBA has gone insane?

Alfred

03-25-2006, 12:08 AM

I sense that someone left their computer on?

TheInfamousBearAssassin

03-25-2006, 12:10 AM

Apparently, mynameisscott is a douche, and I should not leave my account logged in at the Frog.

On a related note, this deck continues to be awesome.

Top + Kite I worry is too many slots for too little actual card drawing. I like that Staff puts the cards immediately into my hand all by itself. The fact that all it's other activations also have uses seals the deal for me.

Stench of Evil should certainly crush Wombat/Rifter, and even Landstill, but how necessary is sideboarding against those decks, really? I find Goblins and Solidarity to be larger threats, more worth boarding against.

Rambo

04-08-2006, 11:59 PM

How about a couple of diabolic edicts instead of 2 putrefies? It would help when facing nimble mongooses plus is an instant.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

04-09-2006, 12:07 PM

Quick tournament summary;

Here's my list;

4x Bayou
4x Polluted Delta
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Cabal Coffers
10x Swamp

The Disruption:
4x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach

The Board Control:
4x Pernicious Deed
3x Mutilate
3x Chainer's Edict
3x Putrefy
2x Decree of Pain

The Utility:
3x Regrowth
3x Staff of Domination

The Kill:
3x Helldozer
2x Haunting Echoes

Sideboard:
4x Infest
4x Sphere of Resistance
1x Haunting Echoes
3x Undead Gladiator
2x Persecute*
1x Decree of Pain*

* Should've been Nether Voids, but Alix is a big phony.

The gameplan is to slowly dismantle your opponent's board. Matchups are something like;

Goblins- Unfavored (40%, maybe). -4 Duress, -3 Chainer's Edict, +4 Infest, +1 Haunting Echoes, +2 Undead Gladiator (or +1 Undead Gladiator, +1 DoP in the suboptimal board). The problem is the repeating hordes of men coming at you, and the relative slowness of board clearers. The post game plan is to keep the board clear for a while and then send off a hopefully devastating Echoes that shuts down their future plans of mayhem.

Threshold- Favored (90%). Sideboard probably unnecessary, but probably -1 Pernicious Deed, -1 Helldozer, +1 Haunting Echoes, +1 Undead Gladiator. Everything in your deck is a must counter for them, and you literally run more creature kill than they have creatures. It is, incidentally, perfectly acceptable to Mutilate or Deed for one target in this matchup, although you'd prefer not to target Werebear as he and Pithing Needle are your only Putrefy targets in the White builds. The Red build is slightly more dangerous- perhaps only 85%- game 1, as they can randomly burn you out, but less dangerous games 2/3 as they don't have access to Armageddon.

Solidarity- Unfavored (25%). You have way too many dead cards game 1. Sideboard is -4 Deed, -3 Mutilate, -3 Chainer's Edict, -1 Putrefy, +4 Sphere of Resistance, +1 Haunting Echoes, +3 Nether Void, +3 Undead Gladiator. Putrefy is specifically the one dead card you keep in over others, even though they're probably all equally dead, as some terrible builds of Solidarity have a transitional sideboard into Chant-Stick. You could keep Deed in if they have the terrible transitional board into Confinement lock, but Confinement doesn't stop you from playing out Helldozer/Void/Sphere to just lock them out of winning anyway. Games 2 and 3 are much more favorable, at any rate, although not auto-win enough to make it a good matchup despite the loss of game 1.

Deadguy Ale- You know, I haven't tested it.

Rifter- Autowin. It's like Gro, only you have a shit load of answers to it. Except it doesn't matter, because you can kill all of their handful of kill conditions really easily, and they can't deal with shit tons of discard + Haunting Echoes. Sideboard: -2 Mutilate, -2 Putrefy, +3 Undead Gladiator, +1 Haunting Echoes.

Random Junkz- 85%. The salt of the earth. It's amazing just how few rogue decks have any shot in Hell of beating Train Wreck, which largely comes down to the fact that most rogue decks fall into the category of either

a) Rolling over and dying to lots of creature hate,

or

b) Rolling over and dying to discard + Echoes.

On to the tournament report;

Round 1: Raffinity w/ Berserks (Totally can't remember his name)

Game 1: I get a bit mana screwed against a fast hand, and misplay a Deed from fearing Shrapnel Blast more than I really should've. I deed for 1 at one point on the fourth turn, which leaves him with a large Ravager and Darksteel Citadel. I have Edict in hand, which gets me out of this situation as long as he doesn't go land, some other creature (and he's already played out like five other creatures). He goes Vault, Disciple. Frowny face. Disciple dies to Edict, and a Hymn away another one, but don't draw the necessary answer the next turn.

-4 Duress, +1 Decree of Pain, +1 Haunting Echoes, +2 Undead Gladiator

Game 2: This is more of what I"m talking about. Deed, Mutilate, Deed, Putrefy Pithing Needles, and a Decree of Pain hardcast precede a Haunting Echoes.

Game 3: Believe it or not, Helldozer wins this game entirely by himself as soon as he untaps, although it helped that my opponent was a bit mana flooded, drawing something like 7 lands to 6 spells. I was a bit mana flooded, too, but I drew Helldozer.

2-1 games, 1-0

Round 2: UWG Threshold (Mr. Nightmare)

Game 1 was unusually close, but I stabilized at 4 or so and got off an Echoes for his entire library. Onto game 2. This one is decidedly less interesting. He gets off to a slow start, which essentially kills what chance he had. Despite getting a free Lava Spike while giving me a reintroductory lesson on basic math and it's interactions with Cabal Coffers, I manage to resolve multiple must-counters. I see via Echoes that he didn't have Geddons to bring in, and that's about a wrap.

4-1 games, 2-0

Round 3: Local guy with G/W Mesmeric Control

He's playing an unusual, unpolished, but very interesting control deck that looks like something I would put together. Wrath of God, Swords to Plowshares, and a wide array of mostly pre-Tempest gold- Howling Mines, Reverse Damage, Force Field, Pariah, Grindstone- I can't even recall all the one-ofs. Most were devoted to hating out creatures and damage sources, which unfortunately didn't do that much to me. He also ran a plethora of recursion in Regrowth, Gaea's Blessing, and Recollects (I assume that he didn't know Eternal Witness existed, as he had limited knowledge of some of the newer card pools; he didn't know what Moment's Peace did when I suggested it to him, for instance), and some additional kill cards in Storm Herd and Akroma. It also ran Extraplanar Lens... so, Storm Herd should be DoJ, and Akroma should go for Humility, and Extraplanar Lens is strictly worse in that deck than Mirari's Wake, which he probably didn't know existed, but I'm still suddenly tempted to try and build this deck. The 1-ofs did make Echoes less effective as a milling source, but I was still able to cripple his draws both games. After Beacon of Immortality'ing twice, he almost milled me game 1 (I was also going a little too crazy with Staff of Domination before I realized the danger), but Helldozer was still able to go all the way after systematically destroying every permanent he had in play.

- 3 Mutilate, -3 Chainer's Edict, +1 Haunting Echoes, +3 Undead Gladiator, +2 Persecute

Game 2 was less interesting, as he got mana screwed. He Pariah'd a Helldozer, and then Swords'd it a couple turns later in response to my targeting a Temple Garden. Unfortunately, he had thought that would counter the ability. This meant that he went four or five turns without White Mana. I then drew a Persecute, named White, and he went from seven cards in the grip to an Extraplanar Lens. I felt for him when he drew that Plains next turn. Mesmeric Orb almost milled me game 1, but game 2 I was more cautious, and so it only served to make Haunting Echoes and Regrowth much stronger.

6-1 games, 3-0

Round 4: Allan (Urbanh), playing Rifter.

We discuss drawing, as we both know I win this matchup, but it's really not late enough in the tournament. I don't want to knock Allan out at all, but I don't want to put myself in the position of having to win the next two rounds, especially as Solidarity and Deadguy Ale (which I don't know at all what kind of matchup I have against) are floating around in the top tables.

Game 1 I draw short on discard, but do get down a Deed to his Rift. I let him untap with it to Rift me for an extra two points at the end of his turn, pitching Starstorm, because I would like to hit more cards when I untap and Echoes away two of his three kill conditions. I then draw crap for a bunch of turns. He hardcasts Decree of Justice twice, fearing Decree of Pain cycling, but as I can hardcast it anyway this is a clear play mistake, and lets Mutilate stop me from taking any damage. If he had cycled both DoJs I might've been in trouble.

Game 2 I have Duress and Hymn in the opening grip, but decide to let him spend a few turns optimizing his hand before tearing it apart. On the third turn I stard with Duress/Hymn, and then two turns later I regrowth Hymn for the last cards in his hand, before dropping Helldozer. He does not rip Swords to Plowshares, and I eat some Caves and Plains.

8-1 games, 4-0

Round 5: ID with Herbig (Solidarity)

Round 6: ID with Drathro (Deadguy Ale)

Top 8: Alix Hatfield (Ob Freely) with UWG Threshold.

He doesn't even play Geddon. I win handily. I think. I'm pretty sure that's what happened. I have been assured by myself and others that I can't lose this matchup, after all. A game? Sure. If the stars allign with the Sun and shoot beams of fucking divinity into my opponent's deck. But the round? Not a chance in Hell. And I'm pretty sure I then went apeshit all over mono-W Angel Stompy in the top 4, before splitting with Herbig.

Despite my conviction that this is what happened, I'm not entirely sure why I first picked Savannahs, or why I gave up my second pick to someone else, but I assume it's because I'm such a great guy.

....

...

Must. Repress. Memories.

Whit3 Ghost

04-09-2006, 12:45 PM

Ouch.

I think the Raffinity player was Getsickanddie.

smeagol

04-10-2006, 06:35 AM

I really like this deck. I played against an extended version of this deck with my legacy decks (grow, rifter and dead guy) last week and except for dead guy brutally lost all games (mind you, the guy played an extended version!). I think the deck is quite capable and I might try it out at my next local legacy event.

However, I still have some concerns and some questions to ask:

1. What is the deck's plan versus Blood Moon? Maybe a Basic Forest and exchange some of the black fetchlands for green one's? Thus you could fit in Naturalize. Just a thought...

2. Is Helldozer really THAT good?

3. Would Spiritmonger be a good addition as another win condition?

4. How good is the deck versus Landstill?

5. Are 4 Coffers necessary? I could imagine that drawing multiples in the early game is really bad news...

6. Are the 8 discard spells + 3 regrowth enough? I'm really tempted to fit in more discard.

7. Is Mutilate>Infest in the Main Deck? Seems that the mana difference means a lot. Especially versus Goblins.

Edit: 8. Another thing that just came to my mind: Burn seems like an auto loss, doesn`t it? Is there anything that can improve the burn matchup? I don't think that it's a plan to have to rely on the Haunting Echoes to do it's dirty work. There are so many dead cards in this matchup, that I don't see this deck win game 1. Any sideboard plans for that?

Lego

04-10-2006, 11:43 AM

Actually, Angel Stompy won game one on the back of turbo Angel that picked up a Sword of Fire and Ice which you just couldn't find an answer to despite playing infinite of them. Game 2 he played Isamaru, Soltari Priest, Armageddon and rode his threats to the win.

Congratulations on the finish, sorry you didn't go further, but I'm glad you did so well :) We needed something like this to T8. I'm definitely going to bust this out once again. What do you think about Burning Wish? Kills the manabase too much? I found that I could consistently hit Red or Green when I needed them, and Wasteland wasn't too much of a threat for me, as I usually only needed the Red/Green once, and I could maintain enough Black either way. Thoughts?

Bane of the Living

04-10-2006, 05:10 PM

Props on the finish. Glad to be the owner of an IBA signed Helldozer!

TheInfamousBearAssassin

04-13-2006, 11:30 PM

1. What is the deck's plan versus Blood Moon? Maybe a Basic Forest and exchange some of the black fetchlands for green one's? Thus you could fit in Naturalize. Just a thought...

2. Is Helldozer really THAT good?

3. Would Spiritmonger be a good addition as another win condition?

4. How good is the deck versus Landstill?

5. Are 4 Coffers necessary? I could imagine that drawing multiples in the early game is really bad news...

6. Are the 8 discard spells + 3 regrowth enough? I'm really tempted to fit in more discard.

7. Is Mutilate>Infest in the Main Deck? Seems that the mana difference means a lot. Especially versus Goblins.

Edit: 8. Another thing that just came to my mind: Burn seems like an auto loss, doesn`t it? Is there anything that can improve the burn matchup? I don't think that it's a plan to have to rely on the Haunting Echoes to do it's dirty work. There are so many dead cards in this matchup, that I don't see this deck win game 1. Any sideboard plans for that?

1) It's to side out most of you green spells and not fetch Bayous. I don't like the idea of fitting in basic Forests, as it starts turning into a situation where your opponent doesn't even have to do anything to fuck up your mana base. Alternately, you could just rely on Discard and pre-playing the Deeds at every opportunity if you know it's coming.

2) Yes.

3) Not really. Spiritmonger doesn't have any utility.

4) Only slightly worse than against Rifter. Landstill is slow as balls and can't handle discard and shit-tons of removal. They can't even really handle Decree of Pain.

5) It is, but they're one of the strongest cards in the deck and a primary reason to play it. The mana acceleration is crucial to overpowering opposing decks. I've never lost to Gro when I got a Coffers active (meaning it was more than breaking even on mana).

6) I think so, although in the right metagame you could try fitting in Funeral Charm or some such.

7) Mutilate hits Threshold and Zoo a lot harder is the main thing.

8) You really need discard and then active Staff to beat Burn. It's quite unfavorable. The plan is to bring in Spheres and Nether Voids. If it's a big concern, you can fit in Consume Spirits, too. Undead Gladiator comes in to, amongst other things, ditch the cards you can't sideboard out.

Undead Gladiator has been a really strong card to bring in almost every match. The only changes I'm contemplating to the maindeck at the moment are whether I could fit in another Decree of Pain or two maindeck Undead Gladiators.

As strong as Burning Wish is, I can't see it doing much for the deck that it doesn't already have other control, and it stretches the mana base really thin. It also really hurts the BlackStax conversional sideboard.

smeagol

04-14-2006, 06:31 AM

I played the deck yesterday at the local Legacy Tournament at Bremen University. Unfortunately the deck didn't perform as well as desired. I went 2-3 including one Bye in Round 2. I changed some cards from IBA's list for several reasons:
1. I really like to have Big Men as an alternative route to victory. Therefore I did play the Mongers in the board and whenever I drew them they were great. Most opponents will board out there riot control and if you bring in such a big beatstick they face serious problems.
2. I didn't play Sphere of Resistance and Nether Void in the board. I wanted to play the Voids, but the dude who wanted to lend me his didn't show up. In addition I didn't suspect lots of combo and saw no need in playing sphere alone (which turned out to be a big mistake).
3. I only own 2 Dozers and 3 Coffers. They seemed to be enough though.
4. Wrench Mind was overall okay, but not too exciting.
5. Tsunami in the Board was a random inclussion instead of the absent Nether Voids.

Now my alternated decklist:

Land:
4 x Bayou
1 x Overgrown Tomb
3 x Cabal Coffers
4 x Bloodstained Mire
3 x Polluted Delta
9 x Swamp

Creatures:
2 x Helldozer

Artifacts:
3 x Staff of Domination

Enchantments:
4 x Pernicious Deed

Sorceries:
3 x Duress
4 x Hymn to Tourach
3 x Wrench Mind
3 x Chainer’s Edict
3 x Mutilate
2 x Decree of Pain
2 x Haunting Echoes
3 x Regrowth

Instants:
2 x Diabolic Edict
2 x Putrefy

Sideboard:
4 x Spiritmonger
1 x Haunting Echoes
1 x Visara, the Dreadful
1 x Putrefy
1 x Duress
3 x Tsunami
4 x Infest

Brief match report:

Round 1 vs 2-Land Belcher.
Hmm... no combo, right? wrong. First round I had to play Belcher. This matchup sucked for four reasons:
1. Mulligan to 4 in game 1 thanks to not being able to draw any land other than cabal coffers in my starting hand and the mulliganed hands.
2. Being slow as hell. Dark Rituals would have been golden, because I could have cast Duress and a 2-mana discard on my first turn. Everything else is far too slow vs. fast combo.
3. Not having Sphere of Resistance in the board.
4. Me being a totally bad player, as I knew my opponent had Goblin Welder in play, Spoils of the Vault in his hand and I Duress him in Game 3. Response he spoils up the Belcher I have to choose it and he just welds it into play.
He lost game 2 to his own spoils, being unable to find a Belcher in the top 32 cards of his deck.

In my opinion a very bad matchup.

In round 2 I got the Bye. Most annoying tournament start ever. Play a first round that's over in 5 minutes including a mulligan to 4, then getting the Bye. Booooooooring!!!

Round 3 I have to play a janky mono red combo deck, using Mogg Maniac, Furnace of Rath and Shrapnel Blast as the Kill. The combo deals 20 damage in one shot. Ouch.
Despite having all the discard on earth in the first game, I have no outs against his top decks. He kills me soundly with his combo. Second game I bring in the Mongers and beat him up, removing his 2 Maniacs with Putrefy and Regrowth on Putrefy. Third game he gets the Nuts and thanks to Seething Song and a Ruby Medallion can play Furnace of Rath, Lightning Bolt and Shrapnel Blast on the same turn. 16 damage later and an attack with his lonely Goblin Matron I'm dead meat. wOOt?

4. Round vs. Burn. Yupp, Burn is really bad news for this deck. Not being able to have enough discard and a life gaining staff of domination in both games cost me the match. Burn is so rediculously bad for this deck... maybe some sideboard slots should be dedicated for it?

5. Round: vs U/W Landstill with Stasis Lock. Sounds like a bad deck and it was a bad deck. I beat him easily in two games. First game I get Coffers with something like 10 swamps into play. With staff of domination I start to draw 3 extra cards each turn, one haunting echoes later we shuffle up for game 2.
He boarded out all his creature removal, not having seen a single creature game 1. I disrupt him heavily thanks to the discard and put down a turn 6 Dozer :) Good Game.

There were quite some Grow Players at the tournament, but they somehow managed to avoid me. I think out of the possible 16 opponents I got the 3 worst matchups.
However, The deck is really a blast if you can get it rolling.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

04-20-2006, 04:09 AM

Burn is one of the matches I have abandoned improving, due to scarcity and the sideboard resources that would be necessary to fight it. It's probably the deck's second worst matchup game 1, too, after Solidarity. As mentioned earlier, without early discard and active Staff, you can't really beat Burn.

Belcher, though, I wouldn't think would be that bad in the long term, although it can certainly steal random games if you don't have the turn 1 Duress or such to stop it. Games 2-3 would be much better, obviously, with Sphere/Voids/Gladiators.

dontbiteitholmes

04-20-2006, 11:12 AM

4x Infest
4x Sphere of Resistance
1x Haunting Echoes
3x Undead Gladiator
2x Persecute*
1x Decree of Pain*

* Should've been Nether Voids, but Alix is a big phony.
What exactly is Undead Gladiator in the side for? You mention Burn being a bad matchup but it seems like resolving the theoretical Nether Void would stick a fork in that ass after Sphere put their plans on Chill. So all that has to happen is you winning a local jam with a deck and it moves to Open huh? Meanwhile I try to breathe life into Plymouth Rock and all I get is "take out the Hymn to Tourachs"... Oh well GJ on wrecking the NOVA with this, I would caution against prematurely breaking this out at a large event due to it's shakey standing vs. Goblins and BW Deadguy which are the top 2 scrub decks of the moment. BW may be an uphill battle any ideas on improving that matchup?

freakish777

04-20-2006, 06:18 PM

Have you considered splashing White instead?

You get Swords and Vindicate as opposed to Putrefy and Regrowth.

Additionally, theres the potential for a total creature lock with Humility and Night of Souls Betrayal (can be fetched with E. Tutor, which also grabs Staff if you insist on running it, Needles out of the board if you want to run them, SB Enigineered Plague and Rule of Law as well, or even Moat if you want to run that).

worsel

04-26-2006, 12:42 PM

This deck seems very fun to play, even though I've only played about 5 games with it so far.

I have some questions:

Does the deck need more creatures or kill conditions? There are only 3 kill cards (3 Helldozers) in the entire deck. What happens if they get Swords to Plowshared? Is this a concern?

Does Seedborn Muse deserve a try. Can you imagine untapping all of your mana and using Helldozer and the Staff on your opponent's turn too?

Does Cranial Extraction warrant trying out, or is it too slow?

What is your current sideboard? I read you say that 4 Engineered Plagues in the sideboard obviously helps with Goblins, but your sideboard list doesn't show them. Has it changed?

Has your maindeck list changed at all? You mentioned that you were trying to fit in a 3rd Decree of Pain and 2 Undead Gladiators.

Should there be one or two basic Forests in the deck to get around Wasteland and Blood Moon? Maybe one set of the current fetch lands (Bloodstained Mires or Polluted Deltas) could be changed to Wooded Foothills or Windswept Heath. Even though they wouldn't be able to fetch basic swamps, they would still be able to fetch the Bayous, which is what the fetch lands are usually used for.

Thanks!

calosso

04-26-2006, 12:51 PM

Haunting echoes is also a win condition because when it resolves it cripples your opponents deck.

Seedborn muse doesn't seem all that great since it cost double green and all it does is untap your mana so yuo can use staff of domination again.

worsel

04-26-2006, 01:16 PM

I'm afraid Haunting Echoes is not a win condition. It can/does make it not possible for your opponent to win, which is a good thing, but it doesn't make you win. To win the game, you must inflict lethal damage to your opponent, or make him deck himself. Neither Haunting Echoes, or any of the other myriad of disruption and discard that this deck incorporates, will administer either of those win conditions.

My question still stands; is 3 cards (3 Helldozers) enough win condition in the deck? If those 3 cards are eliminated from play, you cannot win. Is this a concern?

Seedborn Muse's double Green requirement may make it impractical in this deck. However, it doesn' just untap your mana to use the Staff again. It untaps Helldozer, and the Staff, and your mana, so you can use Helldozer and your Staff again. It would allow you to destroy lands, and draw cards, on your turn, and then again on your opponent's turn. Again, the double Green requirement, and the fact that it would have to replace some other cards, might mean it's not worth it... but that's why I'm asking the question.

Ewokslayer

04-26-2006, 01:23 PM

A Haunting Echoes can remove enough cards from your opponents deck to make decking realistic.
Additionally, Haunting Echoes can remove you opponents only means of killing Helldozer. As long as you don't wasted Helldozer, I don't really see only having three creatures as your win condition that much of an issue.
Jack was thinking about adding Undead Gladiator into the main for cycling, but it would serve as an additional win condition as well.

Nightmare

04-26-2006, 01:24 PM

I'm afraid Haunting Echoes is not a win condition. It can/does make it not possible for your opponent to win, which is a good thing, but it doesn't make you win. To win the game, you must inflict lethal damage to your opponent, or make him deck himself. Neither Haunting Echoes, or any of the other myriad of disruption and discard that this deck incorporates, will administer either of those win conditions.You've proven yourself wrong in your own statement. In combination with the disruption and discard that this deck incorporates, as well as the Life Gain and card advantage you get thru Staff, Haunting Echoes removes your opponent's deck from the game. Yes. The entire deck. Therefore, it can be considered a Win Condition, just as Brain Freeze is in Solidarity.

worsel

04-26-2006, 01:34 PM

Well, I stand corrected. I did not think that Haunting Echoes would remove enough of your opponents library that they could actually deck themselves. I suppose if you wait until there's a good selection of cards in their graveyard, that indeed they will have very little library left. Interesting.

What about my idea of Muse?

I hope IBA will have time to answer my other questions.

Thanks!

SillyMetalGAT

04-26-2006, 08:06 PM

Ask the Germans on here. Haunting Echoes is nicknamed "Scoopmeister" for its raw awesomeness. As for the Seedborn, I think its a win-more card really. By the time you have Staff, Helldozer, and Seedborn in play, dont you think your opponent should've scooped?

Bane of the Living

04-26-2006, 09:02 PM

Twinkee

04-26-2006, 10:46 PM

Well from my experience of playing this deck with my friends, Haunting echoes majorly cripples your opponent if not end the game by itself. By the time you play haunting echoes, your opponent will have a sizable graveyard for your haunting echoes to hurt.

SillyMetalGAT: So I see that you have taken a liking to my old avy :wink:?

Getsickanddie

04-26-2006, 11:44 PM

Well after playing against Jack with Affinity round one of Kadilaks dual land draft, and having all but 3 different cards removed from my deck I have to say Haunting Echoes is pretty nuts. (although I have believed this from playing monoblack in both extended, and legacy for a while.)

TheInfamousBearAssassin

04-27-2006, 02:21 AM

Essentially, playing against Train Wreck should, for your opponent, be an experience roughly equivalent to reading The Wasteland while sitting on a cold, concrete floor in a room without any lights with Kansas playing quietly in the background. You strip away their hand, their creatures, their artifacts and enchantments, then their land, and ultimately everything left in their library.

I've not found the 3 Helldozers to be a problem. I just tend not to play them until I'm fairly confident they're safe. Regrowth also helps out with this if they get countered/ destroyed. I've not yet lost a game to having too few win conditions. I've also yet to have a round go to time, unlike with Wombat/Rifter. In answer to your other questions, more recent lists of my decklist/sideboard are on page 2.

bigredmeanie

04-27-2006, 12:40 PM

I like the idea of splashing white. You get Swords and Condem if you want to run both. Splashing white seems like it would improve your goblins matchup significantly. Seeing as how it has a terrible goblins matchup.

worsel

04-27-2006, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin:
In answer to your other questions, more recent lists of my decklist/sideboard are on page 2.

I'm sorry, but I'm a bit confused... the list on page 2 looks identical to the original list on page 1. Am I missing something? I read that you were trying to fit 2 Undead Gladiators, and 1 more Decree of Pain, into the maindeck.

How do you think Ichneumon Druid would be in place of Nether Voids?

:smile:

Lego

04-27-2006, 06:15 PM

How do you think Ichneumon Druid would be in place of Nether Voids?

:smile:

That dude is soooo underplayed. He's double green though, so pretty much a no.

worsel

04-27-2006, 07:24 PM

Does the double green cost of Ichneumon Druid mean we would not be able to consistently cast him on turn 3, even though we have 12 sources of green mana (8 fetches plus 4 bayou)?

The reason I wondered if he was better than Nether Void, is because his cost is 3, while Nether Void's cost is 4. Therefore, he comes into play on turn 3, instead of turn 4. This could make a big difference when you're playing against Solidarity.

Would Festering Goblin help us with the Goblin matchup?

worsel

04-28-2006, 11:16 AM

Another couple of cards I thought of that might help the Goblin matchup: Carnophage, and/or, Will-o'-the Wisp?

Also, playing against Deadguy Ale, and Goblins for that matter, they have the ability to Wasteland your Bayous. I have found this to be quite annoying. I asked this before, but no one commented: should there be one or two basic Forests in the deck? Four of the fetches could be changed to Windswept Heath or Wooded Foothills.

Here is a summary of my unanswered questions:

1) Could we consistently cast an Ichneumon Druid (double green mana requirement) since we have 12 sources of green (8 fetches + 4 bayou)?

2) Would Festering Goblin, and/or Carnophage, and/or Will-o'-the-Wisp, help with the Goblins matchup?

3) Would like to know what IBA's most recent decklist and sideboard is, since the list on page 2 is identical to the original list from page 1. I read that IBA was trying to fit Undead Gladiators into the maindeck.

Lego

04-28-2006, 12:31 PM

@Basic Forests: Not a good idea, as they weaken your Coffers. There are 8 fetches in the deck, so you can afford to pop them for basic swamps and hold one or two back to pop immediately when you're going to use the Bayou. I find that I'm only using 1-3 green over the course of a game, so Wastelands don't hurt that much.

1) No, you can't support double green with only 12 sources. On Turn 2 I'd say absolutely out of the question, on Turn 3 I'd say just mostly not happening. I would want upwards of 16 sources to support it, but feel free to test it anyway. It also has the added benefit of losing to Wasteland.

2 + 3) I'll let someone more knowledgeable with the deck (IBA) answer these.

@IBA: What's with the Nether Voids? The only thing I can imagine them against is Solidarity, where they're a fourth turn threat if it resolves and they don't go off in response. Are you banking on this following up all your other disruption so that it is more likely to resolve and they won't be able to go off in response? Maybe some Chalices would be better.

worsel

05-01-2006, 04:31 PM

I've been playtesting this deck a bit, and even played it in a Dual Land tournament on the weekend.

The Goblin matchup is not great, as we already know, but I don't believe IBA's sideboarding is the optimal choice. Here is what IBA recommends against Goblins:

+4 Infest
+2 Undead Gladiator
+1 Haunting Echoes
-4 Duress
-3 Chainer's Edict

My choices are a bit different:

+4 Infest
+3 Undead Gladiator
-4 Duress
-3 Staff of Domination

The trick to beating Goblins is to survive the first 3 or 4 turns, at which time you are usually in a position to be able to wrath their side of the board almost at will, then play Haunting Echoes, and repeat until they concede. The reason I believe boarding out the Staff of Dominations is a better choice than boarding out the Chainer's Edicts, is because the Staffs do nothing to help you survive the early game. Chainer's Edict will always kill one Goblin for 2 mana. I think the 3rd Gladiator is more important than the 3rd Haunting Echoes, also because they help you survive the early game. My friend and I have played about 20 games with the post-board of +4 Infest and +3 Gladiators. He played Train Wreck, while I played against him with Goblins. He won almost every game in which he started with a good opening hand, or mulliganed aggressively. You must assure that you start the game with at least 2 or 3 creature destruction cards (Infest, Hymn, Edicts, Deed, Mutilate) and at least 2 or 3 black mana sources. If you do not start with such a hand, you will usually lose the game. The deck needs more 1 and 2 drops that kill their creatures! Some Shield Spheres would be very helpful in this match-up. Anyways, it's a tough match, but not too hard IF you mulligan aggressively.

My next point is about the Cabal Coffers. I am still testing this, but I believe that 3 Coffers may be enough. The 4th Coffer makes mulliganning harder, and more often necessary. Wastelands are a pain, but we have 3 Regrowths. Also, the Coffers are not absolutely necessary in order to win games. An early Coffer, especially in your opening hand, is not good. You don't need one until mid to late game.

Please comment on my observations and thoughts.

Lego

05-01-2006, 06:17 PM

An early Coffer, especially in your opening hand, is not good. You don't need one until mid to late game.

I may be playing incorrectly, but I don't find that to be true at all. If I've got something like Swamp, Bayou, Fetch, Coffer, and 3 business spells, I'll often keep on the strength of the Coffer. It's not good to play before turn 4, but I don't mind having it in my opening hand at all, just so that I know it's there. In late turns, when you've got a lot of mana at your disposal (sometimes from double Coffers) you can do some pretty amazing things. Drawing three or four cards in a turn, killing 5 lands with Helldozer, Regrowth and replay a big spell. I like having 4 Coffers because I want to ensure that I draw one every game, I want to have another if the first gets Wastelanded, and I don't mind doubles when moving into the end game.

worsel

05-02-2006, 12:55 PM

If I've got something like Swamp, Bayou, Fetch, Coffer, and 3 business spells, I'll often keep on the strength of the Coffer. It's not good to play before turn 4, but I don't mind having it in my opening hand at all, just so that I know it's there.

I agree, against pretty much anything but Goblins. When playing against the little green men, you need discard, destruction spells, and the mana to play them immediately. Goblins will often kill you by turn 4. A Coffer in your opening hand is a dead card against Goblins. And when they have Wastelands and Ports, they deny you of your Bayous and Swamps during the first few turns. When they have a Port out, and I have only one Bayou, I am denied Green mana until I can draw a second one. By then they often have a Wasteland, and so continue to deny me of my Green mana until I can draw a third Bayou/Fetch. Against Goblins, you have to have Hymns, Infests, and Chainer's Edicts in your draw, along with at least 2 Swamps. A Coffer does you no good at all. Even having a Deed in your opening hand won't work for you, because of the problem I just explained about them being able to easily deny you of your green mana.

In late turns, when you've got a lot of mana at your disposal (sometimes from double Coffers) you can do some pretty amazing things. Drawing three or four cards in a turn, killing 5 lands with Helldozer, Regrowth and replay a big spell. I like having 4 Coffers because I want to ensure that I draw one every game, I want to have another if the first gets Wastelanded, and I don't mind doubles when moving into the end game.

This is all true, but it is not absolutely necessary to win. I mean, it's very nice to move into the mid and late game with at least one Coffer in play, but it is not absolutely necessary... you can win without one. Don't get me wrong, I love to have a Coffer to get my Staff really working for me, I'm just saying that, worse case, if you don't get one, you can still win. Besides, having three Coffers in the deck, plus 3 Regrowths, means that you are very, very likely to have at least 1 in play by mid game.

The other thing is, I'm still testing having only 3 Coffers. So far, in about 10 games, I have twice been happy the 4th Coffer was a Swamp instead of a Coffer, and once wished it had been a Coffer. For me, the jury is still out, but I think it is possible that 3 is enough... especially when aggressively mulliganning in the Goblin matchup. I think 3 is enough against Goblins, but the question is whether or not 3 is satisfactory against the rest of the field. If not, then 1 could be sided-out against Goblins... but it would be nice to strengthen our chances against them game 1 too.

Speaking, again, of Goblins, I wish the maindeck, or sideboard, had room for 4 Shield Spheres, or some 1 or 2 drop destruction spells, like Terror or Smother. Anything to help to get through the first 3 or 4 turns until I can stabilize my mana, and draw some board sweepers, and/or a Gladiator to block with.

bigredmeanie

05-02-2006, 06:12 PM

If your looking for more/better removal against goblins try Lose Hope first, then Contagin. Both are cheap, and have a positive impact on the game.

bigbear102

05-02-2006, 06:51 PM

Burn is one of the matches I have abandoned improving, due to scarcity and the sideboard resources that would be necessary to fight it. It's probably the deck's second worst matchup game 1, too, after Solidarity. As mentioned earlier, without early discard and active Staff, you can't really beat Burn.

Shouldn't the Spheres out of the board give you at least a shot agaisnt burn? A turn 1 Duress, turn 2 Sphere should slow them down a bit, I know it's not going to be a favorable matchup, but it seems like with the Spheres it should at least be winnable part of the time.

Lego

05-03-2006, 12:35 AM

If Goblins is spending turn after turn denying you of Green mana, they're spending turn after turn not playing Goblins. I've never had them use Port more than one turn, because it simply doesn't fit with their strategy.

Along with Lose Hope, I'd try Vendetta, and some of the free removal. Spinning Darkness probably won't work, but Contagion might. Don't know what the card disadvantage will do in the long run, which is why I like Spinning Darkness more, but it's going to be difficult to play before turn 4 or 5, when it will essentially be useless.

If you're having such a hard time with Goblins, try Infest maindeck. I find that usually by turn 3 Goblins has maybe a Warchief and a couple of other guys on the board. If they played first turn Lackey, it's possible that you're at 13 or so, lower if they were on the play, but after that they shouldn't being doing much damage to you. Infest buys you time for Mutilate, which buys you time for Deed, and it's all downhill from there.

worsel

05-04-2006, 09:05 PM

If Goblins is spending turn after turn denying you of Green mana, they're spending turn after turn not playing Goblins. I've never had them use Port more than one turn, because it simply doesn't fit with their strategy.

Hmmm, well, I don't know what to say... this has not been my experience. The Goblin players I have played against, at least the ones that know how my deck works, tap and/or destroy my green mana for as long, and as often, as possible... usually for at least the first 4 or 5 turns. During this time, they play out their Goblins off of Lackey, and Aether Vial, and the Mountains (other than the one being used in conjunction with their Port) that they play each turn. They slow themselves down by a turn or two, in order to stop me from wrathing their board. This strategy has worked against me.

I think I have gotten better at playing against them post-board. The Infests and Undead Gladiators make a big difference. I was still having trouble game 1 though, so I made some changes to the deck and sideboard. So far it seems to work well.

I know some of you disagree, but I, and some very good players that I play with at my local store, agree that the Coffers, Staffs, Helldozers, and Haunting Echoes are not necessary until late game. You must survive the early and mid-game until you can stabilize... then you want a Coffer, Staff, Helldozer, and Haunting Echoes... but not before. In the difficult early game, these four cards are dead in your hand. You would much rather have a Hymn, Duress, Deed, Edict, Mutilate, or Putrefy. These cards keep them from their game, loading their graveyard with cards so you can Haunting Echoes them. If that doesn't finish them off, then a Staff and Helldozer will usually finish the game. Also, against Goblins, Haunting Echoes can backfire against you. Sometimes all you end up doing is thinning out their deck, leaving them in a very favourable topdecking mode.

I have reduced the number of Coffers, Staffs, and Helldozers, and put the Undead Gladiators in the Maindeck. The deck runs much better. Playing out a Gladiator for beats, or as a recurring blocker, is very powerful. It has made a big difference. Don't be in a rush to play a Helldozer or Staff, or even a Haunting Echoes. You need to keep destroying their board until their resources start slowing down... THEN you are ready to wreck their world with Echoes and Dozers.

Please try this build before telling me I'm wrong. You must try it against Goblins, Ale, Welder Survival, Thresh and whatever else you can. Seriously, the deck works like this. Only plenty of gameplay will truly tell if I'm right, but so far it seems to be working well.

Anyways, here's my current decklist:

4x Bayou
4x Polluted Delta
4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Cabal Coffers
10x Swamp

4x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach

4x Pernicious Deed
3x Mutilate
3x Chainer's Edict
3x Putrefy
2x Decree of Pain

3x Regrowth
2x Staff of Domination

2x Helldozer
3x Undead Gladiator
2x Haunting Echoes

SB:
4x Infest
4x Sphere of Resistance
1x Haunting Echoes
3x Engineered Plague
3x Nether Void

Sideboarding Strategies:

Goblins: -4 Duress, -1 Chainer's Edict, -1 Staff, -1 Haunting Echoes, +4 Infest, +3 Engineered Plague.

Welder Survival: -1 Undead Gladiator, +1 Haunting Echoes.

RGSA: -1 Undead Gladiator, +1 Haunting Echoes.

Threshold: -1 Undead Gladiator, +1 Haunting Echoes.

Solidarity: -3 Mutilate, -3 Edict, -2 Deed, +4 Sphere of Resistance, +3 Nether Void, +1 Haunting Echoes.

Rifter: -1 Mutilate, +1 Haunting Echoes.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

05-14-2006, 08:06 PM

I actually agree with Worsel on the Goblins matchup; and certainly the first three cards to cut would be the 4th Coffers, the 3rd Staff, and the 3rd Helldozer (the last less so than the previous two). In a Goblins heavy meta, the Gladiators are a good fit in that slot. Personally, I played with 3x Shadow of Doubt in the same slot the previous week at the Frog, which is much more Gro/Solidarity heavy, and was quite happy with it in that context. I can see Staff over Edict to side out, but I'm not entirely sure I agree with the reasoning, as Staff can shut down a number of Goblins on the D, and is your only form of life gain.

Caleb

05-15-2006, 12:26 AM

. Also, against Goblins, Haunting Echoes can backfire against you. Sometimes all you end up doing is thinning out their deck, leaving them in a very favourable topdecking mode.

Umm, I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Can't you see their graveyard at all times? Doesn't that mean that if this does happen, it's a fault of the player casting the Haunting Echoes, and not the Haunting Echoes itself? You don't HAVE to play things just because they're in your hand you know, sometimes timing is important.

I agree that Nether Void is probably not optimal. Chalice would help out Burn as well as Solidarity, so I see no reason why not to run it instead.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

05-15-2006, 01:55 AM

Most good combo decks have answers to Chalice. The card does remarkably little against Solidarity, for instance, because it can't hit Cunning Wish effectively, and you have very little pressure to back it up with. Nether Void after an early Duress/Hymn/Sphere of Resistance puts them in a very difficult position; Cunning wish now costs 6. Add a Sphere and it costs 7. Add in a Helldozer and you can hardlock them out of the game. Nether Void, unlike Chalice, stops them from even getting started.

NANTUKO_SHADY

05-15-2006, 07:53 PM

Very true that Nether Void is the obvious choice.. too bad it's hard on the wallet... *sigh* :frown:

TheInfamousBearAssassin

05-18-2006, 03:33 AM

Nightmare

05-18-2006, 07:27 AM

Another thought; what'd be the best possible sideboard card against Train Wreck? At the moment, I'm thinking of how ridiculously good Sowing Salt would be... especially the second time. First cutting off either Green mana or the mana acceleration, and then the other. Almost a reason to go back to the 1x Overgrown Tomb.Damping Matrix. Also, Compost. Or, play Combo.

Alfred

05-18-2006, 02:41 PM

What I want to know right now is if anyone's aware of any decks that Train Wreck has a bad game 1 against besides Goblins and Solidarity. With just those two, I find it very easy to construct a sideboard that can tilt both matchups to at least approximately even games 2-3. With a shit-ton of autowins elsewhere, I'm seeing very little reason at the moment to play another deck in a completely open metagame. Not to sound too Dirt-ish.

Another thought; what'd be the best possible sideboard card against Train Wreck? At the moment, I'm thinking of how ridiculously good Sowing Salt would be... especially the second time. First cutting off either Green mana or the mana acceleration, and then the other. Almost a reason to go back to the 1x Overgrown Tomb.

Cranial Extraction would probably be a good sideboard card against TW, due to the fact that you run 2 different win conditions, one of which is actually good at winning the game. Also, Karma seems like it could be a kick right in the balls, for pretty much the same reason it kicked MBC in standard in the balls, though you do have Deed.

Sowing Salt would be pretty devistating, but like Karma, it would be a SB spot totally dedicated to beating TW and due to it's cost would be vulnerable to your discard. Cranial Extraction seems like something that would be far more common in sideboards than either of those two cards.

EDIT: lol, I was calling the deck TR... :coolsad:

NANTUKO_SHADY

05-18-2006, 03:00 PM

Personally, I think that this deck is a perfectly fine deck to play in an open meta. Like IBA said, there are only those two decks that you don't have a great game one against... and a 15 card side board might just do the trick to help those matchups. Besides that, mostly all jank decks fall to TW and I think it's the perfect choice to play at local stores where it's a bunch of bad players running around with creature decks that they dont know how to run. Until a shocking discovery is made, or until sowing salt and Extraction are heavily used against us, I say we play the deck until someone finds a way to knock the deck around. Oh and did I mention, IBA proved that this deck can function fine in a larger Legacy tournament as well. :laugh:

Iranon

05-22-2006, 04:28 AM

How vulnerable are you to disruption yourself? I assume Deadguy isn't that good a matchup, and Pox would dance on your grave...

Aggro_zombies

05-22-2006, 06:43 AM

How vulnerable are you to disruption yourself? I assume Deadguy isn't that good a matchup, and Pox would dance on your grave...
Deadguy is a janky deck anyway. That deck requires someone with a great deal of skill to take it far...kinda like Solidarity, but I prefer the latter.

Anyway, having played against this deck with Rifter, I have been able to observe it in action. Aside from losing horribly, I noticed that this deck is really slow, so just about anything fast will overrun you. Additionally, the mana requirements here are pretty tight...someone drops a Geddon and you're screwed. Hell, any LD or massive hand disruption screws you...if you can't make it to Helldozer or Echoes mana, you can't win, basically. Don't know how to fix that...if it becomes a real problem I guess you could use Skyshroud Blessing or whatever it's called.

NANTUKO_SHADY

05-24-2006, 02:51 PM

I wholeheartedly agree that Dead Guy Ale is quite janky. If you aren's Pikula, the deck isn't all that great. Dead Guy is quite beatable by Train Wreck if the person isn't insane at magic. Chainer's edict is nuts against Dead Guy, seeming as their threat count is low and each one of their creatures is VERY crucial to the deck. Yes the landkill is annoying, but the deck runs out of gas sooner or later, and I highly doubt Dark Confidant will sit on the board long against Train Wreck. Trust me, I used to play Dead Guy Ale until I realized how bad it was and because my name isn't Chris Pikula.

worsel

05-25-2006, 11:25 AM

I would say that our mana requirements, and our opponent's land destruction/disruption, are the biggest problems we face when playing this deck. If we are denied early mana, decks can quite handidly out-maneuver us, gaining control, and then winning, before we can come back and stabilize. It is by far the most frequent reason that I, personally, lose games.

Dead Guy is not easy to play against if they have early hand and mana destruction. I have played many games against them, and will always lose when they play early Wastelands, Sinkholes, and Hymns.

Goblins also normally win because they deny me of mana (especially green) in the early game.

If slots could be made, this deck would benefit immensely with answers to mana destruction/disruption. 'Skyshroud Blessing' would theoretically help. So would 'Life from the Loam' and/or 'Crucible of Worlds'.

worsel

05-30-2006, 02:43 PM

Jack (aka TheInfamousBearAssassin):

On May 18, you asked what decks we think are a bad Game 1. Well, I guess I answered by saying "Dead Guy Ale". I have played lots of games against it, and their early-game hand and land destruction really, really hurt. Now I haven't played against BWg Dirt, but I would assume they could do the same thing.

I'm wondering what your latest thoughts are on this deck's design. Should we add maindecked or sideboarded Life from the Loams?

I really LOVE this deck. For the last few years I have been a devoted Survival deck player, but, when I saw this deck about a month ago, I built it and tried it, and now I can't get enough of it. It is so much fun to play. Haunting Echoes, Helldozer, and Staff of Domination RULE! Ahem, sorry... Anyways, I love this deck, but hate playing it against BW decks with hand and land destruction (especially land destruction). It is so frustrating! I would rather play against Goblins, which I have better luck with (as long as I mulligan to a good opening hand). But against Land Destruction, this deck crumbles.

I have been testing Diabolic Edicts instead of Chainer's Edicts. Sometimes the Instant speed is really important, but I sometimes miss the Flashback of Chainer's Edict. What do you think, Jack?

Also, I have replaced the Undead Gladiators with Engineered Plagues. What do you think about that change?

What do you think about Funeral Charm?

What about Sinkhole?

What about 1 basic Forest and the appropriate fetchlands?

What about Overgrown Tombs?

What about getting rid of green, or lowering the need for green by using "Oblivion Stones" or "Nevinyrral's Disks"?

What about using "Talisman of Impulse/Unity"?

As the master of this deck, Jack, I'd really love to hear what you think about what I've said, all my crazy questions, as well as your recent thoughts about the decklist and playing the deck.

Thanks

TheInfamousBearAssassin

05-31-2006, 02:14 PM

Well, Dirt has a good bit less of a clock, and with 26 land a little LD matters less. I could see Deadguy as a problem.

I don't like Life From the Loam as a solution. It's slow, won't pull its weight until later in the game, and only replaces CA, not tempo, which is the main problem, I believe.

I would say that the best possible solution in a metagame full of Deadguy would be md Skyshroud Blessing, and sideboard Compost. Blessing can preserve CA and Tempo at the same time, and once burnt, they'll be reluctant to spend mana on a Sinkhole if you have 1G open. Compost likewise mitigates their discard and makes LD subpar, as well as making all your removal cantrip.

Gladiators for E. Plagues I could only see in a metagame full of Goblins/Pikula. Even then, I'd only do it if it's a 4'of, rather than the Pikula style of relying on being insanely lucky.

Funeral Charm is never a dead card, but it's seldom a good one. The deck functions off of your cards being more powerful than the opponent's, and Funeral Charm doesn't do this.

Any basic Forest is a really bad idea in my opinion. People that haven't played with the card extensively will do something silly like pair Coffers with only 14 Swamps, but after enough times of sitting around for five turns with the card producing no mana, you learn how important the proper ratio of Swamps to support Coffers is.

I've been running 1x Overgrown Tomb off and on. It hasn't been useful that much, but it does produce a potential foil to Sowing Salt.

Green is what pushes the deck to Tier 1 status, in my opinion, and moves the Goblin matchup from bad to mediocre, an important difference. Deed is just a turn or two faster than Disk, and those turns matter.

If I were to run more mana ramping, it would be Golgari Signet, but at that point you're running 30 mana sources, which is a lot for a deck that doesn't draw extra cards without a big Decree of Pain or late game Staff of Domination.

worsel

05-31-2006, 04:53 PM

Jack,

Thank-you very much for your reply. It helps alot.

What is your view on Diabolic Edict versus Chainer's Edict?

TheInfamousBearAssassin

05-31-2006, 08:18 PM

I would need a really good reason to run D. Edict. In a deck that never gets to 7 mana, the speed is everything and D. Edict is far better. In a deck that always gets to 7 mana or loses, the card advantage becomes drastically more important. If Dragon were in the format again, I'd run D. Edict, but I can't think of a good reason otherwise. Maybe if Blanchwood Armor became the next big thing, or if Golden Grahams is everywhere.

worsel

06-01-2006, 12:00 PM

Jack,

Thanks once more... I just have a small question to do with what you said about the addition of Skyshroud Blessing and Compost. If I was to add these cards, what would I take out? Here is what I came up with... but I'd sure like to know what you would do.

Maindeck:
-4 Duress
+4 Skyshroud Blessing

Sideboard:
-4 Sphere of Resistance
+1 Nether Void
+3 Compost

The above changes are assuming that the following is still your current decklist. Could you please verify that the following is still your current list:

4x Bayou
4x Polluted Delta
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Cabal Coffers
10x Swamp

4x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Pernicious Deed
3x Mutilate
3x Chainer's Edict
3x Putrefy
2x Decree of Pain
3x Regrowth
3x Staff of Domination
3x Helldozer
2x Haunting Echoes

SB:
4x Infest
1x Haunting Echoes
3x Undead Gladiator
4x Sphere of Resistance
3x Nether Void

Thanks again Jack!

worsel

06-08-2006, 11:28 AM

I tried maindecked Skyshroud Blessings. I took out all 4 Duress to make room for them, but I really missed them (the Duresses). I started thinking about taking out 1 of this, and 1 of that, to make room, but wasn't very happy about watering down the maindeck's plans. Has anyone else done any testing in this regard? What cards would you take out to make room for Blessings? Jack? I'm thinking maybe Skyshroud should not be maindecked. I would like to put them in the sideboard, but don't know what to take out.

I ran into a mono-red deck that runs Sowing Salt in the sideboard. Man did that card wreck me! No more Deeds. No more Putrefys. No more Regrowths.

I'm thinking of trying the addition of Overgrown Tombs in place of some Swamps. A friend of mine suggested 4 of them. I know Jack mentioned running 1. Obviously they help against Sowing Salt, but more green sources may also help against Deadguy Ale; although the biggest problem against them is not specifically losing the green sources, it is more about the loss of land in general, in which only Skyshroud Blessing or Life from the Loam can help against.

Any ideas/comments on which direction my testing should take next?

TheInfamousBearAssassin

06-08-2006, 03:44 PM

Skyshroud Blessing could only really replace the same slots I would consider cutting for Undead Gladiator- a Regrowth, a Staff, a Helldozer. I don't think it's a very good maindeck plan, though. I don't know of any metagame where Deadguy is that prevalent.

Four Tombs are going to cost you a lot of life. I wouldn't go beyond the 2, and then I'd prefer the 1.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

06-10-2006, 07:19 AM

Testing out Burning Wish. Aside from making the deck utterly die to Wasteland, it's very strong. Wishboard right now is;

1 Mutilate
1 Infest
1 Haunting Echoes
1 Recoup
3 Skyshroud Blessing
1 Life from the Loam
1 Wrench Mind
1 Stench of Evil
1 Consume Spirit
1 Promise of Power
1 Meltdown
1 Reverent Silence
1 Tsunami

If they do ban Wasteland, I'd play it in a heartbeat. Meantime, I think I'll play this at the back to back Duel for Duals, having gotten tired of Undead Gladiator's card parity bullshit.

4 Cabal Coffers
11 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta

3 Helldozer

4 Pernicious Deed
4 Chainer's Edict
3 Mutilate
3 Decree of Pain
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress
3 Regrowth
3 Staff of Domination
3 Putrefy

SB:
3 Skyshroud Blessing
4 Infest
1 Haunting Echoes
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Nether Void

Although I'm giving serious thought to cutting Putrefy for Crime/Punishment, since most of my artifact worries cost 1 anyway.

Edit: Wow, it's too early. I definitely did not cut Echoes. -1 Edict, -1... oh, this is the hard part. Actually, I might do 2 Crime/Punishment instead of 3 Putrefies. Let's try that. +2 Echoes.

The more I think about it, the better Punishment seems than Putrefy. Killing a Needle and a Mongoose? Sign me up. That'll teach stupid Hatfields to play 9-land Stompy.

worsel

06-13-2006, 12:38 PM

If they do ban Wasteland...

Is there a rumour, and/or real talk, about Wasteland being banned?!? Can I read anything about this anywhere? I really do think Wasteland should be banned, because it stifles us from being creative with multi-coloured decks... it rewards people that make mono-coloured decks. I don't see these facts as being healthy for the environment.

Anyways, I like the changes you made. I have a few questions:

1) Will three Skyshroud Blessings really be enough? I think you need to draw at least one or two in the very early game for them to be useful. I realise that even in the mid to late game they can still be okay, since they draw you a card for two mana, but their real strength is required in the early game to thwart land destruction. What about reducing the Decree of Pain count back to two, and adding one Skyshroud Blessing to the maindeck?

2) If we are Hymned, or Duressed, in the early game, and made to discard our Skyshroud Blessing, then it would have been better if the Skyshroud Blessing had been a Life from the Loam instead. Being Hymned, or Duressed, is also another reason to have four Skyshroud Blessings. On the other hand, if we used Life from the Loams, three would be more than enough. The problem with Loams, of course, is that you still get behind on land, since your land still gets destroyed, and can only be replaced during your next turn's land drop.

3) I was thinking of taking out one Sphere of Resistance and replacing it with a Gaea's Blessing. What do you think about that idea? It might improve the Solidarity matchup, while weakening the matchup against burn, and other various fast decks. The problem is, that against Solidarity, they have counterspells and bounce spells to deal with your Spheres (and Nether Voids), but only have a single Stifle to deal with Gaea's Blessing. It is, however, also true, that against Gaea's Blessing, they can change their gameplan, and make you draw your whole library, instead of milling it.

What do you think Jack?

Lukas Preuss

06-13-2006, 01:40 PM

Is there a rumour, and/or real talk, about Wasteland being banned?!? Can I read anything about this anywhere? I really do think Wasteland should be banned, because it stifles us from being creative with multi-coloured decks... it rewards people that make mono-coloured decks. I don't see these facts as being healthy for the environment.

Wasteland is most definitely not going to be banned. The fact that Monocolored decks are good is something really important to a format that wants to be as inexpensive as possible...

3) I was thinking of taking out one Sphere of Resistance and replacing it with a Gaea's Blessing. What do you think about that idea? It might improve the Solidarity matchup, while weakening the matchup against burn, and other various fast decks. The problem is, that against Solidarity, they have counterspells and bounce spells to deal with your Spheres (and Nether Voids), but only have a single Stifle to deal with Gaea's Blessing. It is, however, also true, that against Gaea's Blessing, they can change their gameplan, and make you draw your whole library, instead of milling it.

Blessing doesn't do anything against Solidarity. They have way too many ways to play around it... they won't even need to Stifle it... they will just respond to your Blessing trigger with another Brain Freeze and continue until you have no cards left in your library and Stroke you to death... or just stroke you right away when they see Blessing hit the yard.
Blessing is actually not a very good card against Solidarity... it is only useful if you have a good (or favorable at least) matchup already (if Gro would board Blessings, this would almost be an autowin for them)... but if your matchup looks like 75 percent in Solidarity's favor, Blessings won't do anything for you.

worsel

06-14-2006, 03:24 PM

Wasteland is most definitely not going to be banned. The fact that Monocolored decks are good is something really important to a format that wants to be as inexpensive as possible...
- Is it, therefore, your opinion that mono-coloured decks are not competitive without Wasteland?
- Is it the mission of Legacy to be an "inexpensive" format. Please note that the word "inexpensive" is relative: Inexpensive compared to what? Legacy will always be less expensive than Vintage, since we do not play with the power nine cards, and such. I would have assumed that with such an extensive card pool, that the point of Legacy was to have variety. Would Legacy be an "expensive" format if we had incentive to play with dual lands more than we already do?

They have way too many ways to play around it... they won't even need to Stifle it... they will just respond to your Blessing trigger with another Brain Freeze and continue until you have no cards left in your library and Stroke you to death... or just stroke you right away when they see Blessing hit the yard.I said the same thing in my post:
It is, however, also true, that against Gaea's Blessing, they can change their gameplan, and make you draw your whole library, instead of milling it.

Blessing is actually not a very good card against Solidarity... it is only useful if you have a good (or favorable at least) matchup already (if Gro would board Blessings, this would almost be an autowin for them)... but if your matchup looks like 75 percent in Solidarity's favor, Blessings won't do anything for you.

So your opinion is that Gaea's Blessing is not worth a slot. I think I agree. It's just that against the odd player, game 2, if they're not prepared, it might work. I guess it's probably not worth it when it's only a "might work" though.

Jack:
Any thoughts on what I said about a fourth Skyshroud Blessing?
And, did you hear something about Wasteland being banned?

TheInfamousBearAssassin

06-14-2006, 03:53 PM

Gaea's Blessing is a good card by itself, but as it's primary purpose is to give you late game power against control, which you already smush (here a word meaning to smash + crush), it's not worth devoting a slot to.

3x Skyshroud Blessing is because it's the least important of the sideboard options to worry about. The Infests + Echoes are the gameplan against Goblins; Void and Sphere you want to hit against combo. Skyshroud Blessing is a less agressive card that randomly 2-for-1s. It's against a less relevant matchup that gives you more time to draw answers and is more favorable to begin with. It also fulfills a similar funciton as a card like Caller of the Claw might in an aggro deck; once bitten by it, an opponent is going to be often unwilling to risk the disadvantage if they see you have the mana open for another one.

Phantom

06-14-2006, 05:13 PM

- Is it, therefore, your opinion that mono-coloured decks are not competitive without Wasteland?

It should be everyones opinion. Mono colored decks would take a big hit if:
a) They couldn't disrupt multi colored or non-basic decks by running Wasteland.
b) Every multi colored deck in the meta gets better, and 50 new decks pop up that can only thrive in a meta that is waste free.

Back on topic:

I know you've made a bunch of changes to the deck since the first page and I was wondering how the matchups have changed? Namely, are the Deadguy, Solidarity, and Goblins matchups still unfavorable? Also, has there been any testing against the new Iggy?

Bane of the Living

06-14-2006, 07:30 PM

Hoojo

06-14-2006, 08:46 PM

From an Iggy players POV I have to say things dont look so good for you. You'll never get late enough in the game for Coffers to matter. Leyline ruins Regrowth, Dozer is far to slow a kill condition for combo, Deed has nothing to blowup except Leyline. Edict has nothing to kill. Nor do your Mutilates or Decree's, or Putrefies. Staff is far to slow to see CA out of. If I were you I would mulligan to a hand with alot of Hymn to Tourachs and Duress's.

Iggy puts up a good fight against discard so that doesnt even help too much.

Too bad no one plays Iggy...

Combo is one of the worst matchups for this deck, as previously mentioned. I think the real questions are how much of your meta is combo and how much of your sideboard do you want to devote to fighting combo.

I like Nether Void on paper, but how much is it working out in practice? How many Spheres do you need to see in the early game to get to enough mana to cast Nether Void? Has Chalice of the Void been tested, possibly as an addition to Spere of Resistance?

Bane of the Living

06-14-2006, 09:35 PM

Too bad no one plays Iggy...

Combo is one of the worst matchups for this deck, as previously mentioned. I think the real questions are how much of your meta is combo and how much of your sideboard do you want to devote to fighting combo.

I like Nether Void on paper, but how much is it working out in practice? How many Spheres do you need to see in the early game to get to enough mana to cast Nether Void? Has Chalice of the Void been tested, possibly as an addition to Spere of Resistance?

Last time I checked more people played IGGy than Train Wreck. Infact Iggy is growing in popularity here on the source, as well as the drain. Infernal Tutor gave the deck a new surge in strength and popularity. Its got a maindeck hose card for the best deck in the format and it can race Solidarity, expect to start seeing it in your meta if you arent yet.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

06-14-2006, 09:58 PM

Plan against Iggy game 1; Draw lots of discard, destroy the Leyline if they play it, and get a Helldozer/Echoes active before they topdeck a late game Chain. Fortunately for games 2 and 3, this deck is even worse against Sphere/Nether Void than Solidarity is.

I think Goblins is about 50/50 right now. Solidarity and DeadGuy are still difficulty game 1, but I'm not unhappy to get paired against Solidarity in a round, even against a good player.

I'm wondering if Compost isn't better than Skyshroud Blessing. It doesn't give you a random cycler to bring in when you really just want to dig for more Spheres/Infests, but it does hit Deadguy a lot harder.

If you get off an early Duress/Hymn/Sphere, you should have enough time to set up Void. If you draw no disruption, it's less hot, but the fact that it essentially guarantees the win after it comes down makes it worth the inclusion.

And yeah, Wasteland getting banned was a joke.

Bane of the Living

06-14-2006, 10:16 PM

TheInfamousBearAssassin

06-14-2006, 10:32 PM

Lots of discard? So out of your 8 discard spells you need to stall me enough to kill me with Helldozer? Its not gonna happen Jack. I dont know how many games you've played against the deck but Id be glad to do more playtesting with you via MWS. Iggy has a good game against discard thanks to Mystic Tutor -> Ill Gotten Gains. Discard has little effect against the deck, counters hurt it much more.

It's implied within the post that it's an unfavorable plan, but it does certainly work in some games. I would almost never consider scooping game 1 to IGGY unless I was really, really tired and/or hungry.

A coupl of the guys at the Frog have been playing the deck lately, so I've gotten a fair bit of playtesting in with it.

worsel

06-15-2006, 04:53 PM

I'm wondering if Compost isn't better than Skyshroud Blessing. It doesn't give you a random cycler to bring in when you really just want to dig for more Spheres/Infests, but it does hit Deadguy a lot harder.

I also see the Decree of Pains as mainly being a way to cycle for other cards, but they are a bit expensive. Do we really want three Decree of Pains in the deck? What about making the third Decree a Skyshroud Blessing instead? That way, with the three Blessings in the sideboard, we would then have access to four of them (one maindeck, three sideboard). Is that a good idea?

If, however, we were to go with three Composts in the sideboard instead of the Blessings, we might be better off with three Decrees (instead of two Decrees and one Blessing).

OR/BUT, I guess the third Decree could end up becoming a third Crime/Punishment if they turn out to be stellar.

What do you think?

wrshp666

06-16-2006, 09:50 AM

I'm going to be testing my list of Train Wreck tonight for 1.5. I should be able to post the results on saturday, with a detailed discription on how it went

worsel

06-20-2006, 12:47 PM

Jack,

Sorry to be a pain, but... do you have a reply to my last post (post# 100, last post on page 5)?

Am I totally-off base? Is the third Decree better than one maindecked Blessing, even if it means having access to four Blessings after sideboarding?

OR

Where you planning on changing the sideboarded Blessings to Composts?

TheInfamousBearAssassin

06-20-2006, 09:06 PM

Sorry, I was distracted developing Thunder Bluff.

I really prefer DoP. If I viewed it simply as a cycling card, I think I could find a better deal for five mana, but I've found it to be a really strong all-around solution to creatures, being powerful both cycled and hardcast.

I don't really feel a need to have more than three Blessings. While the fourth would be nice, even just one successfully countering an LD spell will usually buy you enough tempo to keep going, unless you're in some weird metagame where people are playing 16 md LD spells.

I think I might go with the Composts for the back to back Duel for Duals, yeah. But part of that might be a lack of actually owning Skyshroud Blessing. I don't really have adequate testing to make that decision, which is largely based on metagame presence anyway. It would hurt against Goblins, though, which is another issue.

adrieng

06-26-2006, 04:00 AM

i dont know where it could be play but the combo
dak depths+aether snap makes a 20/20 flying creature indestructible
maybe it could be play in this kinda of deck or maybe a vesrion splashing red for burning whish to tutor aether snap
aether snap
3bb
destroy all token and remove all token from all permanents
dark depths
legendery land
comes into play with 10 token
pay 3 remove a token when there is no token put a 20/20 creture with flying indestructible
maybe you dont even need aether snap cause with cabal coffer you have a lot of mana

despo

06-26-2006, 05:57 AM

I don't think that will do much, it seems very slow. Dark depths is a land, so it you can't play it early game, because it gives no mana. And Aether is pretty useless in any other situation, except when facing raffinity perhaps.
But i do think burning wish would be a nice addition to this deck, giving it more solutions, you could even use pyroclasm against goblins, you play red mana sources and it's a sorcery :)

btw: i like this deck a lot, Helldozer rocks!

rockSTAR

06-27-2006, 05:38 PM

Did anybody think about Life from the Loam in this? I mean it would help with keeping Coffers on the table and stuff.

worsel

06-27-2006, 07:07 PM

Did anybody think about Life from the Loam in this?

Yes... take a look at posts #80, #82, and section 2) of post #89.

Here is the current decklist:

4 Cabal Coffers
11 Swamp (or, if worried about Sowing Salt, 10 Swamp + 1 Overgrown Tomb)
4 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta

3 Helldozer

4 Pernicious Deed
3 Chainer's Edict
3 Mutilate
3 Decree of Pain
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress
3 Regrowth
3 Staff of Domination
2 Crime/Punishment
2 Haunting Echoes

SB:
3 Skyshroud Blessing (or, in a Deadguy-heavy metagame, 3 Compost instead)
4 Infest
1 Haunting Echoes
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Nether Void

TheInfamousBearAssassin

06-28-2006, 09:24 AM

For the Duel for Duals, I'll probably play -1 DoP, +1 Punishment, but otherwise this list is pretty optimal. I'm not actually sure if that's the correct play, either. Punishment is better against Gro but worse against Goblins, but Goblins seems to be losing popularity fairly rapidly in the face of massive hate.

troopatroop

06-28-2006, 02:18 PM

Is combo the only deck's weakness, and if so, has Nether Void main been considered?

Mirrislegend

06-28-2006, 02:28 PM

Random question. In Trainwreck vs Wombat or Rifter, who's the beatdown?

AnwarA101

06-28-2006, 02:47 PM

Random question. In Trainwreck vs Wombat or Rifter, who's the beatdown?

Trainwreck wins because it plays Haunting Echoes which Wombat or Rifter can't do anything about.

Twinkee

06-28-2006, 02:52 PM

Is combo the only deck's weakness, and if so, has Nether Void main been considered?
Combo, and Land destruction tends to give this deck fits. As with Hand-distruction too in my experience. If Nether Void is main-decked, I think in the face of Land destruction+Hand-distruction, it'll hurt more than help us.

Random question. In Trainwreck vs Wombat or Rifter, who's the beatdown?
Train-wreck hands down.

Mirrislegend

06-28-2006, 03:57 PM

Trainwreck wins because it plays Haunting Echoes which Wombat or Rifter can't do anything about.
True, but I didnt ask about win conditions.

Also, I clearly forgot a huge part of my question. Who's the beatdown and why?

TheInfamousBearAssassin

06-28-2006, 06:42 PM

True, but I didnt ask about win conditions.

Also, I clearly forgot a huge part of my question. Who's the beatdown and why?

Rifter is the beatdown, which is part of why the matchup is so ridiculously good. Rifter has to try to finish you off as quickly as possible with Lightning Rifts or a big DoJ. You have plenty of answers to both.

Bane of the Living

06-28-2006, 07:04 PM

Why does anyone even play Rifter? It has so many bad matchups such as decks like these, not too mention the auto loss to combo.

BlindMage

06-28-2006, 09:06 PM

Why does anyone even play Rifter? It has so many bad matchups such as decks like these, not too mention the auto loss to combo.

Because it's outrageously good against Aggro, and goblins in particular. It also rolls red gro, and is favored against white gro (game 1, at least. armageddon hurts, but a quick chalice@1 out of the board pwns Gro). Also, it's fun to cycle cards.

troopatroop

07-07-2006, 05:12 PM

Since I don't have the money for Nether Voids, could Cranial Extraction be a reasonable replacement?

Have you considered Kagemaro?

Is Crime/Punishment really that good?

Where has Undead Gladiator gone?

TheDarkshineKnight

07-07-2006, 05:19 PM

Why does anyone even play Rifter? It has so many bad matchups such as decks like these, not too mention the auto loss to combo.

Because it rapes aggro. If no one played it, Legacy would be a totally broken format, as it's the only competitive control deck. Without all three archetypes, a format is in the crapper.

bigredmeanie

07-07-2006, 05:28 PM

worsel

07-07-2006, 06:15 PM

Since I don't have the money for Nether Voids, could Cranial Extraction be a reasonable replacement?

Persecute might be better. Try out both.

Have you considered Kagemaro?

Kagemaro, First to Suffer is a bit too expensive/slow... I think the Mutilates are a better choice at 4 mana.

Is Crime/Punishment really that good?

You should try them out for yourself, BUT, if you want to destroy something with a casting cost of 4 or 5, they are good because they don't destroy your Staff of Domination as well (the way Pernicious Deeds do). They also cost 1 less than Pernicious Deeds.

Where has Undead Gladiator gone?

They weren't pulling their weight. In Jack's own words "having gotten tired of Undead Gladiator's card parity bullshit". They have been replaced by Skyshroud Blessing (or Compost if you play in a very Deadguy-heavy metagame).

Forgive me. Where is the updated list?

From post# 107:

4 Cabal Coffers
11 Swamp (or, if worried about Sowing Salt, 10 Swamp + 1 Overgrown Tomb)
4 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta

3 Helldozer

4 Pernicious Deed
3 Chainer's Edict
3 Mutilate
3 Decree of Pain
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress
3 Regrowth
3 Staff of Domination
2 Crime/Punishment
2 Haunting Echoes

SB:
3 Skyshroud Blessing (or, in a Deadguy-heavy metagame, 3 Compost instead)
4 Infest
1 Haunting Echoes
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Nether Void

Also, Jack mentioned that he was going to try out -1 Decree of Pain for +1 Crime/Punishment. Don't know how that has worked out for him.

troopatroop

07-07-2006, 09:00 PM

I guess I ask about Crime/Punishment because it seems to me that Putrefy would be alot better. I was also considering Kagemaro as maybe a two of, in place of C/P. Mirari also comes to mind. Any thoughts on those?

Persecute and Cranial Extraction each have their merits. Persecute seems to own MonoColored strategies... but the scarcity of those decks makes me wonder if thats even a valid point. Wombat and Solidarity come to mind, even the mirror, But would Solidarity matchup even be easier if you nuked their hand rather than remove their Tides? And even so, Would it matter? I don't think so. They're probably going to go off in response anyways. Cranial extraction could potentially remove hate cards sided in against you... but I'd be hesitant to delute the maindeck with a boarding like that. Most of the hate I can think of against this deck is under 4cc anyway... which means you would probably be crippled before you had a chance to Extract them. Could Dark Ritual be included in the board to speed the deck up against combo? It would require alot of dedication in the board... but it seems neccesary to me. That might be taking the deck in the wrong direction. I also don't really have the ability to "Try anything out", because my store kinda closed locally.

SuckerPunch

07-08-2006, 12:55 AM

Crime/Punishment is actually a very strong card.

The core of the deck looks very strong, like MBC should.

But I can't help but think the deck would be much stronger if it ran Spiritmonger and maybe just 1-2 Helldozer or that 4/4 guy that you can sac to draw cards and has Dredge 1, instead of jank like Staff of Domination.

Staff of Domination requires you to have a ton of mana and Cabal Coffers in play to abuse, and the format is much faster than that.

A light white splash to royally abuse Vindicate, along with StP and Crime/Punishment or possibly even Wrath of God might also make sense.

TheAardvark

07-08-2006, 08:28 AM

But I can't help but think the deck would be much stronger if it ran Spiritmonger and maybe just 1-2 Helldozer or that 4/4 guy that you can sac to draw cards and has Dredge 1, instead of jank like Staff of Domination.

Staff of Domination requires you to have a ton of mana and Cabal Coffers in play to abuse, and the format is much faster than that.

A light white splash to royally abuse Vindicate, along with StP and Crime/Punishment or possibly even Wrath of God might also make sense.

Dredge is not a good idea in a deck like this, mainly because you can't really abuse it like you can Staff. This deck focuses on holding off the opponent until Staff hits, and then, combined with Helldozer (and Coffers), crushes the opponent with overwhleming card/tempo advantage.

Yes, the format can be very fast, which is why the rest of the deck is set up to combat that speed. Granted, some of the combo matchups are a little scary, but they're scary for most non-blue based decks regardless. Train Wreck is built in such a way as to be able to stall the game until you hit 6-8 mana, and then you start drawing/gaining life from Staff, drop a Coffers, and basically just win. And make no mistake: Haunting Echoes is the primary kill condition here; you just have to time it correctly.

And adding another color, while potentially powerful, will knock your Goblin and Deadguy (which thrives on bad manabases) matchups down into the nether regions. Bad idea, IMO.

SuckerPunch

07-08-2006, 12:26 PM

This deck is basically MBC with Helldozer instead of Spiritmonger.

Helldozer is really really easy to kill. Spiritmonger's only removal is StP, and it comes out faster, and has trample* and regenerate.

Yes, Helldozer can eat a couple of lands, so what, land destruction is only mainly relevant early game.

I see no justification to run Helldozer over Monger other than that it has a cooler name.

*Contrary to popular belief, Spiritmonger does not have trample. It also does not destroy lands. But it does change color which, of course, is good against the abundance of CoPs in the current meta.

-PR

Twinkee

07-08-2006, 02:07 PM

Couple lands? How about 5+ lands by the time it hits? :confused:
Honestly, spiritmonger doesn't help the board. It just beats, and it doesn't have trample. You don't play it on turn6 most of the time, you play it after you have established control of the game and using helldozer to seal the game up turn after it lands. Spiritmonger doesn't do that.

Oathmaster

07-08-2006, 03:51 PM

Hello,

I have been playing a similar deck when I heard of train wreck. I have changed some of my deck to include the idea of train wreck. I do have one question. The only thing I would change on the current deck list of train wreck is the nether void's. I like 3 x chalice of the voids better. It is a little quicker than nether void and can help with a greater range of decks.

Can someone please let me know what you think?? Is chalice better than nether void??

troopatroop

07-09-2006, 10:51 AM

Helldozer destroys their entire board in 2-3 turns.

Win.

But it does not have the ability to change color.

-PR

EDIT: Correct, but if you chose to make that point relevant, why not include wild mongrel? That way your creatures could never die to Perish.

SuckerPunch

07-09-2006, 02:53 PM

PR, Did I ever mention the fact that Monger can change colors as the reason it's good?

No I mentioned that the fact that about the only prevalent removal Monger dies to is StP in a format filled with every sort of removal available as the reason why it's good.

Even setting aside the removal, consider all the large creatures this format runs, from Iwamori to Mystic Enforcer to the plethora of Swords of Fire and Ice. All of which Helldozer dies to, and Monger survives.

And to be fair, even the color changing ability isn't irrelevant. Angel Stompy, one of the strongest decks in the format runs Mother of Runes and Threshold, one of the other strongest decks in the format runs Mystic Enforcer. It helps if your finisher can actually attack through pro black chump blockers.

And the fact that it comes out a turn earlier, and can survive a large deed isn't irrelevent either.

Compared to this, Helldozer is a win more card that is too easily killed, costs too much mana, and whose land destruction doesn't kick in till late game, when land destruction isn't nearly as effective. If you already have the game locked up.

Assuming you do wait till turn 10 or so when you finally have 4 lands and a cabal coffers in play to cast Helldozer.

Your opponent will in all likely hood have atleast 5 lands out too. And with the six mana that you have, you can destroy 2 lands a turn. So for 3 full turns Helldozer still remains incredibly vulnerable to every form of removal.

I'm not convinced the trade off of a far more vulnerable creature that has a higher cc, for the ability to destroy their lands over 4 turns from the one in which Helldozer was cast is worth it.

Heck, even the original author cited the cool name as a reason why Helldozer was picked from the many possible win condition.

But PR, if you wish to belittle monger instead of having an actual discussion over the win condition, that's your choice.

Twinkee

07-09-2006, 03:12 PM

PR, Did I ever mention the fact that Monger can change colors as the reason it's good?

No I mentioned that the fact that about the only prevalent removal Monger dies to is StP in a format filled with every sort of removal available as the reason why it's good.And the prevalent fact is that this deck runs 3 creatures, making most of their cards in their hand dead cards. You don't always win Dozer, heck, you can win through fishing with dozer for a deadly Haunting echoes.

Even setting aside the removal, consider all the large creatures this format runs, from Iwamori to Mystic Enforcer to the plethora of Swords of Fire and Ice. All of which Helldozer dies to, and Monger survives.All which this deck itself pretty much just destroys.

And to be fair, even the color changing ability isn't irrelevant. Angel Stompy, one of the strongest decks in the format runs Mother of Runes and Threshold, one of the other strongest decks in the format runs Mystic Enforcer. It helps if your finisher can actually attack through pro black chump blockers.To be fair, both decks just dies to the bajillions removals in this deck.

And the fact that it comes out a turn earlier, and can survive a large deed isn't irrelevent either.When do you ever blow a deed at 6+?

Compared to this, Helldozer is a win more card that is too easily killed, costs too much mana, and whose land destruction doesn't kick in till late game, when land destruction isn't nearly as effective. If you already have the game locked up. You don't lock the game up. You control the board, save for the land. Which is where Helldozer comes in to actually lock the game up.

Assuming you do wait till turn 10 or so when you finally have 4 lands and a cabal coffers in play to cast Helldozer.By turn 10, I'd hope you have more than just 5 lands in a 26/60 deck.

I'm not convinced the trade off of a far more vulnerable creature that has a higher cc, for the ability to destroy their lands over 4 turns from the one in which Helldozer was cast is worth it.I'm not convinced you have actually played the deck either.

Heck, even the original author cited the cool name as a reason why Helldozer was picked from the many possible win condition.I think you need to find your sense of humor again.

But PR, if you wish to belittle monger instead of having an actual discussion over the win condition, that's your choice.Get the stick outta your ass please.

SuckerPunch

07-09-2006, 03:26 PM

Instead of attacking me, why don't you get the stick out of your ass and try actually answering my question.

Why is Helldozer better than Monger when Monger is clearly much more resilent and cheaper too?

I actually played MBC with Monger, which you clearly haven't done. I've never said this deck is bad, just that it could be better with a differnt win condition. There's no reason for you to get so defensive.

Twinkee

07-09-2006, 04:11 PM

In your last post you commented on how Monger is better than Helldozer in those situations, which I commented that they are nonsense if you have actually played the deck. It really isn't that hard to just put it together on MWS and play a few times to get the feel of the deck before coming up with bunch of your so called arguments.
The times I attacked you was you using arguments where IBA made a crack about the name of Helldozer itself. Wow, that's really a really solid argument there buddy.

If you actually read the posts before, everyone should have explained to you why Helldozer is better in this deck than Monger. You also brought up several situations where monger would be better, but then I'm here to tell you that the deck itself is build to handle those situations. Look at Mystic enforcer, when in the hell are they going cast it? after they have threshold. Does it matter if you have either Spiritmonger or Helldozer going to have an effect? No, that damn thing will have flying plus it has pro black. In which one of your sweep will it be different if you had spiritmonger in play instead of helldozer? None. Hardcast decree will kill both since there is no regen, Mutilate will kill, deed won't have to go to 6, nor do crime//punishment.

Dozer is an utility kill, where monger is just a vanilla creature. Think about it.

troopatroop

07-09-2006, 05:15 PM

SuckerPunch, your arguments are flawed. In all of your conditions where Monger is Better than Helldozer you put it against other creatures, and if you're playing this deck the way it's intended, Those creatures would never be on the board at the same time as Helldozer. You would never go beatdown against Thresh and have Spiritmonger's ability to go through Mystic Enforcer matter. Sure. You're right that its possible. But the way that matchup plays is totally different. You mention 4 lands and a coffers on turn 10? Please. That just exemplifies that you don't know how this deck works. If you don't have 6 lands by turn 8-9 you're not winning. Quite frankly, you've probably lost already.

With this deck, you want to completely exhaust their resources until you go for the kill. That means with Hand destruction, Creature destruction, and Haunting Echoes. Then, When all that plan is done, you go for the win. At that point, Helldozer is much better than Spiritmonger, because it prevents them from coming back entirely, and hits JUST AS HARD as monger.

Monger is better at combat, but this deck is never there, so it doesn't matter.

Wrong role = Game loss.

scrumdogg

07-09-2006, 06:44 PM

To be more specific, Monger is an aggressive creature - it was designed to attack, Helldozer is a controlling creature that has the incidental ability to attack. This is a control deck, pure & simple, one of those creatures furthers that game plan, one does not. Helldozer is the perfect cards for this deck because it contributes to the plan & when played properly, works well with your primary win condition (Echoes). Even if your first Dozer gets sent farming, you can now remove every STP they pack. That bodes well for your second Dozer (which you should find off the Staff) and bodes ill for their manabase. I have discovered, in the course of playing this game, that it becomes exceedingly difficult for my opponent to recover when they have no land. Maybe that is an experience singular to me, but I found it epiphanic.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

07-10-2006, 10:45 AM

I actually don't have much to add. Others have accurately touched on why Helldozer is the deck's beatstick of choice. If you're worried about killing as fast as possible, this is the wrong deck to be playing. The rest of your game destroys everything but their lands. Helldozer removes the last resource they have to recover with. It's ridiculously huge body is the icing on the cake. And if a secondary kill condition were required, I'd still choose a beatstick that fulfilled a secondary role like Visara or Bane of the Living than Spiritmonger.

What I do regret is only playing 2 Helldozer this weekend, not that it would've mattered much. Duel for Duals day 1 I lost out to a goblins deck running the full compliment of Wasteland/Port on top of natural mana screw both games, and then got paired against Solidarity and failed to find a kill condition after getting a Sphere to stick for five or six turns.

I also ended up drawing against Gro... on turn 5, game 3 he had no permanents, 5 life, and Helldozer + Undead Gladiator from the side (I couldn't find the Skyshroud Blessings, which would've been cruce for the Goblins matchup) on the board, but hey. Shouldn't there just be a rule that when one player clearly cannot possibly lose on turn 5 they should be handed the win? Like when it's literally impossible for them to not win? When all your opponent has left in his library is Counterspell and Mystic Enforcer and no effing land on the board?

Punishment was also savage. Part of that might be my playing against Raffinity, and man does that card eat that deck alive.

worsel

07-10-2006, 03:33 PM

Jack,

For the Duel for Duals, did you take out a DoP in order to go to 3 Crime/Punishments? If so, is it a permanent change to the decklist?

Did you make any/other changes to the decklist for the Duel for Duals?

TheInfamousBearAssassin

07-10-2006, 04:48 PM

No, I cut a Helldozer for the 3rd Crime/Punishment. Mistake in retrospect. Here was my list;

4x Cabal Coffers
4x Bayou
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Polluted Delta
12x Sumpf (props to Krieger for these)

2x Helldozer
2x Haunting Echoes

4x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach

4x Pernicous Deed
3x Mutilate
3x Chainer's Edict
3x Crime/Punishment
3x Decree of Pain

3x Staff of Domination
3x Regrowth

The sideboard was sub-optimal due to necessity

4x Sphere of Resistance
2x Nether Void (Alix was a gimp)
4x Infest (Diefendorf and Krieger, however, were my heroes)
3x Shadow of Doubt
2x Undead Gladiator (Scott was also a champ)

I suppose slight props are in order to Calosso for letting me borrow Crime/Punishments as well.

Alix really, really sucks. What kind of jerk can't even spell his own name, anyway?

Bane of the Living

07-10-2006, 05:21 PM

Jack do you think the idea of Phage is far too silly to try? She's castable via coffers after you tear apart your opponents hands. Staff taps men so she can swing in. I had tons of success with her but not in Legacy. If any deck could play her it would be this one.

troopatroop

07-10-2006, 05:47 PM

It's really easy to get carried away and take this deck in the wrong direction. Hell Mirari, Kagemaro, Bane, Grinning Demon, Zombie Cutthroat, Reiver Demon etc all seem like they would be pretty good. Beware cool things. Phage isn't playable here.

What did you side the Shadow of Doubts in against? I ask because I see them as a MB card. Honestly. I find them incredible.

And the Gladiators?

TheInfamousBearAssassin

07-10-2006, 06:08 PM

I don't think Phage is silly per se... it's just that Helldozer already tends to do pretty much the same thing, sans the losing to Parallax Wave/dying to Werebear approach. While it's extremely rare that he gets into combat (or that you have to cast him a turn earlier than Phage would be castable), it does occasionally pop up. It is true, however, that Phage is above the last CC level you can reasonably expect opposing creatures to have, whereas Deed cannot take out an E. Angel without killing Dozer.

I would say to go ahead and test Phage, but I'm finding it extremely unlikely that she'll be more worthwhile than Dozer, who already tends to have the same effect in as many words once he eats an opposing mana base.

Shadow of Doubt came in against Solidarity and any matchup where I just really wanted to cycle to better cards.

troopatroop

07-10-2006, 06:15 PM

But have you considered it Maindeck? It Cantrips, Sinkholes, and Counters Dragon. It's extremely versatile and is almost always guaranteed card advantage. I've thought about sinkhole for this deck against Solidarity, but this is so much better. Why not?

TheAardvark

07-10-2006, 08:08 PM

We had our local Legacy tourney yesterday, and I finished 3rd playing Train Wreck. The maindeck was almost card for card the pre-D4D decklist, with the difference of -1 Coffers/+1 Swamp, as I was going insane by drawing multiple Coffers too early too often. My SB, however, was wildly different.

4x Dark Ritual
4x Infest
4x Sphere Of Resistance
3x Persecute

This came about from a lot of testing against Goblins, Deadguy/mono-black disruption, Solidarity, and Angel Stompy, and some testing against The Game, Wildfire, the mirror, and Threshold. I really like this SB, especially against Solidarity and Goblins, and I'll explain why. Note: the conclusions regarding these 2 decks were basically simultaneous, as I was testing the Goblin matchup and realized it would be good against Solidarity also.

1. Goblins--I did a lot of testing against my own build, and a lot of the games would have me sort of stabilizing at a low life-total, having Deed in play, my opponent playing Ringleader, forcing me to use Mutilate, Decree, and finally Deed, and they would then overwhelm me with the Ringleader card advantage, swinging with multiple red men next turn. This wasn't an isolated incident; it happened 5 games in a row. I'd run out of removal aside from Deed, be forced to use it, and their 7 Goblins in hand would wreck me. I thought about Persecute, thinking it would be very good in such situations, and useful against other decks as well. So I tried Persecute out, and I liked it quite a bit. The only problem was that a handful of times, I was still getting overwhelmed by Stupid Goblin Draws. So, I thought about it, and examined each card's role in the deck, and after a couple more games, I decided that Hymn To Tourach was underperforming; even when I cast it turn 2, it wasn't overly helpful most of the time. I needed to be faster, able to power out my removal ASAP to survive the first and second waves of threats. With this in mind, I decided to try Ritual...and I never looked back. Whether it was turn 2 Mutilate/Infest or Persecute on red, my win % post-SB went up a great deal. In 10 games after adding Ritual + Persecute, post-SB went to 80/20 in my favor, with my 2 losses being to improper mulliganing on my part, and amazing topdecking on his part. I was incredibly happy with this, and was very glad it worked out.

2. Solidarity--As everyone knows, we have 487495739 dead cards game 1, so it's ridiculously lopsided on their part unless you get very lucky with multiple Duress/Hymn and Echoes. They have the luxury of casting Meditate to set up their hand, and can pretty much go off at leisure. I wasn't having much luck with the original SB, and not having access to more than 1 Nether Void sort of ruined that plan anyway, so I felt that the Ritual/Persecute aspect of the SB would be solid here as well, and I was not wrong. Again, in 10 games post-SB, my win % was 80/20, with my 2 losses coming from: back to back Turnabouts on my lands when I had Echoes in the grip, and failure to draw another discard spell when he was down to 2 cards in hand (Reset and Meditate) and he went off the following turn, in response to Hymn. I was able to Ritual out Duress + Sphere, Duress + Hymn, or turn 2 Persecute to deny him the advantage, and was able to draw mostly relevant spells, although mid/late game Rituals are kinda lame; they're still better than cards that do nothing at all, though.

The Rituals also helped out a lot against Deadguy-style decks, since Sinkhole and Vindicate can suck. It's still not a great matchup by any means, but Ritual can really bail you out in some cases (like being able to cast Deed and activate it for 2 on turn 3, etc.). Compost is assuredly better in that matchup, but it typically doesn't comprise a large amount of the field in any given tourney, so I can forgive that.

Anyway, as far as the tourney itself goes, it went like this:

Round 1 W 2-0 vs. The Game--I draw pretty well, and his deck basically takes a giant shit on him, allowing me to draw Echoes and win from there.

Round 2 W 2-1 vs. Solidarity--Game 1 was actually winnable, but he goes off with only Tide + Meditate in hand, drawing into (according to him) Tide, Reset, Meditate, Cunning Wish, and going from there. Games 2 & 3 were dominated by my discard spells and Spheres, with Helldozer batting cleanup and locking him out of the game.

Round 3 W 2-1 vs. 8 Land Stompy--I die turn 4 Game 1 to Rancored Rogue Elephant and Rancored Quirion Ranger, having double Decree in hand, but no Mutilate. Games 2 and 3 see me stabilize at 5 or so life, eventually hitting Echoes to remove everything of relevance.

Round 4 W 2-1 vs. Landstill--Game 1, he loses due to not de-sideboarding. Game 2, he gets 6 man lands, and I can't keep up. Game 3, I play 3 discard spells on the first 3 turns, and they are all countered, opening the way for Staff + Helldozer.

Top 4 L 0-2 vs. Burn--Yeah, this matchup is GODAWFUL. Game 1 isn't close, and I get annihilated. Game 2 I manage turn 2 Persecute, ripping out Ball Lightning, Inceinerate, Lightning Bolt, and Fireblast; I still lose, mainly due to being stuck on 4 lands for 4 turns.

Consolation Bracket W 2-0 vs. 8 Land Stompy--See Games 2/3 above. Same old story. Persecute was good here too.

So, that's my story. I really like the current SB configuration, and I really like the deck. I will continue to test out the SB as we get closer to GenCon, but this is looking like my deck of choice at this time.

That is all.

worsel

07-11-2006, 03:17 PM

Aardvark,

Your Sideboard plan is very interesting.

When playing against Solidarity, I often find the casting cost of Nether Void to be too high, as the Solidarity player can often "go-off" in response to me playing my Nether Void on turn 4.

Nether Void is, however, very good against Red Burn/Sligh.

I have found Sphere of Resistance to be effective against Solidarity, as long as they don't bounce it back to my hand with Echoing Decay, which happens more often than I like. But regardless, the Spheres seem to be much more effective against them than the Voids, simply because we have a better chance of getting one out before they're ready to combo-out.

The addition of Dark Ritual is very interesting, and I really like the idea of Persecute against Solidarity, Goblins, and Deadguy... especially accelerated out with a Dark Ritual. A 4th Persecute would seem to be a good idea, or is 3 enough?

Jack, what are your thoughts on this sideboard plan?

TheInfamousBearAssassin

07-14-2006, 10:06 PM

I had actually contemplated running Dark Ritual in the board for Goblins a year ago, when Goblins was my main concern and the deck was mono black, with a worse game against the deck. They had been maindecked for a short while too, although I decided 30 mana sources was a bit high for any deck that isn't Wildfire. I was a bit worried about looking silly by suggesting it. Unfortunately, I think it opens you up to Remand too much against Solidarity, making it pretty much strictly for Goblins... there I'm not sure if it's better than another second turn digger to get closer to the Infests and possibly counter a Wasteland activation. It's worth testing out, though. I don't have any results yet but I'll give it a spin.

TheAardvark

07-14-2006, 10:37 PM

Unfortunately, I think it opens you up to Remand too much against Solidarity...

Just a quick note about this. I thought about this as well, but considering you're almost certainly going to be on the play game 2, I think it's less of an issue. You're aiming at turn 1/2 disruption, with Persecute being the trump card. In addition, there are a lot of turn 1/2 plays involving Ritual that can really hurt them, like Duress/Hymn, Duress/Sphere, Hymn/Sphere, etc. Turn 2 Persecute is, sadly, not game, but it buys you a LOT of time, especially if they're land light early. Follow it up with Sphere, and they're definitely in a bad way. Again, this has come from a decent amount of testing, as well as some tourney action, so it does have game experience behind it.

Disrupt can be a bitch, but with Deadguy not that prevalent in most metagames, a good amount of Solidarity players escew it in favor of other stuff, which opens the post-SB matchup even more for us.

Either way, I am interested in getting feedback from anyone who tries this SB plan out, as it has worked out well so far.

Totally off-topic but mildly amusing bit that came from testing Wildfire (my current pet deck) vs. Solidarity: cycling Decree Of Annihilation with Reset on the stack (or Meditate, depending on the situation) is quite the entertaining play.

Oathmaster

07-15-2006, 01:46 PM

I have to agree that the sideboard is interesting but I rearranged the deck to fit 3 maindeck dark rituals and through playtesting it appears to help. I have cut a land or two but it does not seem to hurt my coffers since I went from 4 to 3 coffers. My sideboard is presently:

4 infest
1 haunting echoes
3 chalice of the void
4 sphere of resistance
3 skyshroud blessing

Nether void is too slow against solidarity but perscute doesn't help that much again burn. I think chalice is a good card for both matchups and has benefited me well.

[B]Is anyone going to run this deck at Kadilacks Dual Land Tourney?[B]

I can't decide between this and my solidarity build??

But if no one is going to take train wreck I may be forced to play it to see how it does at a huge tournament.

Lego

07-15-2006, 11:17 PM

But if no one is going to take train wreck I may be forced to play it to see how it does at a huge tournament.

Or you could just look at the last DLD T8. That might tell you how it does, although I'm not sure how you definie "huge".

I think people are scared to take this because it auto-loses to Solidarity. There was a lot of that at the SCG thing.

Alfred

07-16-2006, 03:03 AM

Or you could just look at the last DLD T8. That might tell you how it does, although I'm not sure how you definie "huge".

I think people are scared to take this because it auto-loses to Solidarity. There was a lot of that at the SCG thing.

I've never played this thing, but I didn't know it autolost to Solidarity. I thought that with Hymn + Duress + Regrowth followed by a Haunting Echoes, it could at least challenge Solidarity.

Then again, it doesn't really have a clock at all apart from Echoes.

matyburger

07-16-2006, 11:10 AM

I've never played this thing, but I didn't know it autolost to Solidarity. I thought that with Hymn + Duress + Regrowth followed by a Haunting Echoes, it could at least challenge Solidarity.

Then again, it doesn't really have a clock at all apart from Echoes.

Even with no cards left in hand, and half of your deck in the RFG pile from Echoes, having nothing to actually win the game from there is critical. Unless you happened to RFG both Brain Freeze and Cunning Wish, there's no configuration of cards that will make Echoes a game winner. It'll slow the game down for the Solidarity player, but again, with no clock, it's completely irrelevant... They can just continue to draw cards, and mold the perfect hand, until you actually present a win condition.

TheAardvark

07-16-2006, 11:15 AM

I've never played this thing, but I didn't know it autolost to Solidarity. I thought that with Hymn + Duress + Regrowth followed by a Haunting Echoes, it could at least challenge Solidarity.

Then again, it doesn't really have a clock at all apart from Echoes.

It's not an autoloss, but it's definitely suboptimal for TW. Game 1 is pretty hopeless, barring some good luck on your side and bad luck on theirs. With the more traditional SB, games 2 & 3 are a little better, but without acceleration, Nether Void doesn't drop until at least turn 4; if you have a Sphere (or two) out, you have to wait even longer. As I stated above, I found my SB strategy to be a lot better against Solidarity than I expected, so there is hope.

As far as how it will do in a "huge" tournament...if Threshold is the most popular deck in said tournament, you should do pretty well, since TW demolishes Threshold. If it's a more evenly split field...well, just avoid Solidarity more than 1-2 times.

Hoojo

07-16-2006, 11:53 AM

I recently took Train Wreak to a legacy tournament here, albeit my list has a few variences. It was less than sixteen players, so I'm not going to do a full report, but I did play against Solidarity. I ran Dark Ritual and Persecute in place of Nether Void and Sphere of Resistance, and the played heavily into this matchup. I also added Cabal Therapy, so post-board, I had 4x Duress, 4x Cabal Therapy, 3x Persecute, 4x Hymn to Tourach, and 3x Haunting Echoes to do battle with.

TheAardvark

07-18-2006, 12:17 AM

I ran Dark Ritual and Persecute in place of Nether Void and Sphere of Resistance, and the played heavily into this matchup. I also added Cabal Therapy, so post-board, I had 4x Duress, 4x Cabal Therapy, 3x Persecute, 4x Hymn to Tourach, and 3x Haunting Echoes to do battle with.

How did Cabal Therapy work out? I have a hard time running it in a deck that can't support the flashback, so I didn't consider it. Sphere Of Resistance has worked out really well; it really disrupts their whole gameplan, where Therapy seems less effective overall.

Anyway, just wondering how Therapy worked out specifically.

Hoojo

07-18-2006, 09:32 AM

Cabal Therapy is actually quite useful without flashback as long as you pay attention to what your opponent is playing. Several times on the play I would Therapy for Brainstorm and nab one or two, or if you want to force a spell through, naming Force of Will will either make them trade 2 for 1 to protect multiple Forces or let you know what is in there hand to see if you should cast.

Against Solidarity, I targeted Impulse and Brainstorm. I would leave the counters and High Tides to Duress. All in all, Therapy works great when coupled with Duress and other discard, namely Persecute, but I wouldn't run it maindeck. For reference, my sideboard:

1x Haunting Echoes
3x Persecute
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Dark Ritual
3x Infest

TheAardvark

07-20-2006, 10:41 PM

I'll have to give it a try. It just seems less effective than Sphere on the surface, but again, I have not tested Therapy, so I'll probably give it a whirl next time we do some Legacy testing (of course, that may not be until right before GenCon, but whatever).

I also considered cutting the 4th Infest for a 3rd Echoes in the SB, but I hadn't really gotten that far into it as yet. I'd have to be really confortable with that matchup before I went that route. I do like the extra Echoes, as it speeds up your "clock", but sometimes that 1 removal spell is the difference between victory and defeat.

I am still trying to decide if I will play this at GenCon; I expect a lot of Threshold, which is a great matchup, but the rise in Solidarity could warp things completely. I'll probably just bite the bullet and play this, though. At least it's fun.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-08-2006, 06:44 PM

This hasn't been as heavily tested as I would like, but I wanted to get this information up for anyone who might be playing the deck at Gencon. I've recently been working on a more synergistic, natural techboard for Train Wreck, whereas the current plan was always sort of derivative of the Glowrider/Sphere/Angel plan of Wombat.

To that end, I've instituted the following changes;

MD:
-3 Regrowth
+3 Gaea's Blessing

The card fulfills a similar function in many ways. Although less powerful in the late game, it provides some dig early game when you haven't seen the card you want, as well as providing another (admittedly poor) MD kill condition and improving late game draws when you get to a low library size. Admittedly worse mid-late to late game in almost all matchups. Not enough to beat good Solidarity players g1 90% of the time, but combined with the sideboard it gives the deck a much strong shot.

SB:
4 Infest
4 Chalice of the Void
3-4 Chains of Metistophiles/Sphere of Resistence
3-4 Phyrexian Negator/Grinning Demon

Infest remains there for Goblins, obviously. The techboard consists in the other cards; 4 Chalice provides you a way to shut down parts of their game plan early, with 1-3 being powerful options. It's especially hard to lose with Chalice at 3.
Chains is pretty much strictly better than Sphere, and reduces vulnerability to Rebuild, but I list Sphere as an option for those without the budget to run Chains. On the plus side, those with the previous board can probably trade their Voids straight up for the Chains.
Either Demon or Negator for quick beats to follow up the disruption and prison pieces. Anwar advocates Phyrexian Negator for a slightly faster clocker. My theories on Grinning Demon are multiple; first, it's piss poor to lose to Cunning Wish-Psionic Blast. While that's not uber-likely, there are a number of sources damage can come from, particularly in combo decks other than Solidarity. Moreover, Grinning Demon can start attacking the same turn as Negator provided you've drawn your fourth mana source. While it costs seven mana total, if you had had something else to do with the mana presumably you would've rather done it 3rd done, and then Demon becomes effectively better, given that Solidarity, between fetchlands and Force, can usually be expected to deal two damage to itself, making Demon a turn faster. Lastly, while Chalice set at 3 is usually game with maindeck Blessings, having a kill condition that can still be cast will save you from random MD bounce or going to time and drawing out.

And, in all honestly, I think Grinning Demon's just a lot cooler than Negator. But that's me.

troopatroop

08-10-2006, 05:58 PM

I've currently been ticking around with Skeletal Vampire in the mainboard. the idea actually came after watching the ravnica block team pro tour, where the card was the undisputed sleeper bomb of the tournament. Skeletal Vamp is an absolute champ. He gives you a way to pump mana into him and generate infinite blockers, He has evasion and is a turn 4 clock, and is absolutely nuts against gro/goblins. He may not do the same thing as helldozer, but I've found his ability to stabilize the board and have an opponent overextend into me quite valuable. Granted, having to wipe the board with him on it sucks, but I don't think that's enough reason to dismiss him quite yet.

AnwarA101

08-10-2006, 06:19 PM

quicksilver

08-10-2006, 08:23 PM

(It would sure be nice to have 4 of them!).

Oh no, do I smell another thread being highjacked from IBA about Anwar's lost cards!

rsaunder

08-11-2006, 11:38 PM

The new errata on Chains actually makes the card even stronger against Solidarity. They can no longer play Opt or Peek during your draw step to draw a card. The card is such an amazing card against Solidarity (It would sure be nice to have 4 of them!).
The problem is that it's only useful against solidarity, and all the usual hate rules apply:They can still just bounce the stupid thing. Perhaps both chains and rule of law for a more hard lock?

If you find it makes them stall long enough to hit an echoes, definitely go for it.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-13-2006, 04:27 AM

Someone, compellingly, pointed out that Chains isn't that great against any other combo deck. With said other combo deck being on the rise, and with my new job not kicking in, Sphere of Resistence, which certainly hits Iggy Pop a lot harder, might be the right move anyway. This would open you up to Rebuild a bit, but it'd also make the combo of C. Wish into Rebuild cost 8, and you still have discard and the potential of dropping Chalice for 3 by then.

So, for the record, I'm going to be trying out;

4x Chalice
4x Sphere
3x Grinning Demon

Lego

08-13-2006, 09:59 PM

How crippling has Sphere shown to be in testing? It has to, by necessity, be used as a stall tactic at best. Doesn't a double High Tide hand simply negate the Sphere all together?

While Chains isn't great against other combo, it can also come in against Threshold (not that you need to board for this matchup anyway,) and it has the added benefit of pretty much neutering Solidarity. With Chains in play and Blessing in the deck, it becomes next to impossible for Solidarity to combo off, doesn't it?

TheAardvark

08-14-2006, 12:17 AM

I ended up playing the deck at GenCon, dropping at 3-2. I lost to Aluren by LETHAL DAMAGE in Round 1 (please, don't ask), beat Solidarity in Round 2, beat Angel Stompy Round 3 (I was dealt combat damage twice in the match), beat Faerie Stompy Round 4, and lost to...I don't even know in Round 5; it's a seemingly creatureless variation of Truffle Shuffle, even including multiple Moat, using Scepter + burn FTW. First 2 games had a bunch of silly stuff going on, and 3rd game my draw was somewhat mana light, and I ended up getting burned out.

Anyway, I actually was going to change the Regrowths to Blessings the day before, but ended up getting distracted and forgetting until I sat down for Round 1. In most of games I played, it would have been slightly better, generally speaking; there was only one time where I needed a specific card in hand from the graveyard, so Blessing would have been fine for the rest of the time.

The SB...well, I was very happy with it overall. I mean, I did side in every card at least once in the 5 rounds, and the Persecutes were pretty face-smashing, including turn 1 Persecute against Angel Stompy for 5 cards. Sphere...I dunno about that. It was ok, but it was somewhat underwhelming, as my Solidarity opponent went off with 1 Sphere in play (and Persecute on the stack), and my Aluren opponent simply bashed my face in with its bad (when not going off) creatures due to drawing nothing but mana sources with Sphere in play.

I love my Ritual/Persecute/Infest slots, but I think that Sphere is somewhat lacking. Chalice was never really that great for me either, so I am unsure as to what to use at this time. We have another local event in a week, so I'll think about it between now and then.

That is all.

Summoner

08-21-2006, 09:21 AM

I'm sure you know the Deck much better than me, but while testing i found Trinisphere great for the Maindeck. By now my list is nearly exactly the same to that in the startingpost, exept for me playing 2 Consume Spirits and instead of the Hymns I play Trinisphere.
And (this might be kinda metachoice) I liked Putrefy much more than Chainer's Edict.

I would like to hear your suggestions about that.

Greez

Oathmaster

11-26-2006, 10:13 PM

Hello,

I have been playing this deck for a while and believe that I am going to take it to Columbus in May. I want to get some honest feedback about what people think about this deck and see if we can evolve it in any way. I know there was a thread for this but searched for it and it did not come up. I am presently running this decklist:

Main Deck:
11 swamps
3 cabal coffers
1 overgrown tomb
4 bayou
4 bloodstained mire
3 chainer's edict
3 decree of pain
3 mutilate
3 dark ritual
4 hymn to tourach
4 duress
3 helldozer
3 haunting echoes
3 staff of domination
3 crime//punishment
3 pernicious deed
3 gaea's blessing

total 61 cards (I am a firm believer in the 61 card old way of thinking)

sideboard: 15
4 tormod's crypt
1 gaea's blessing
3 chains of mephistopheles
4 sphere of resistance
3 chalice of the void

I went to a legacy tournament in Syracuse on 11/26 and went 2-2. Some of it was based upon poor decision making of keeping certain hands but I wanted to test the deck. I was not worried about missing out on the store credit 1st prize.

1st match up -- Solidarity

This has always been an auto loss for me but I have changed my sideboard to say I hate solidarity and it seemed to help.

1st game I should have just skipped

2nd game 2 sphere of resistance on board by 3 turn after hand destruction. Helldozer hits play and goes in for the win.

3rd game 2 sphere of resistance and 2 chains of meph on board by 4th turn. This was sick. Helldozer hits play on 7th turn and starts destroying lands so he couldn't cast any spells.

(2-1)

2nd Match -- Red/green beats
1st game mana screwed

2nd game I blow up a lot of creatures and hand destruction. Haunting echoes follows on 5th and then helldozer on 6th. I win

3rd game goes just like the 2nd.

(2-1)

3rd match -- mono red to the head
1st game get burned to death. (I felt extra crispy after this one)

2nd game He gets stuck on 1 land until 7th turn when I blow it up with helldozer. Have to feel kinda bad.

3rd game I get repaid by having 2 lands in play forever. A swamp and a cabal coffers. I should have just said 1 land in play forever.

(1-2) Presently 2-1 for tournament

4th match -- goblins (r/w)
I generally win this match but bad decision making on my part helped my opponent.

1st game I keep the same 1 swamp and 1 cabal coffer hand I saw in the previous match. I was on the draw so I assumed that I would just get another land within 3 draws. It did not occur until around the 4th turn and then it was black and then more black. Could not land the green to play a deed.

2nd game He keeps me locked down by wasteland and ports. I could never get enough mana to cycle decree of pain, cast a helldozer or a haunting echoes. He didn't go gung ho and play as many creatures as possible leaving himself tapped out.

For the day I was 2-2 in a 8 person field.

This is what I am thinking about and would like feedback:

Based upon the tournament, I was thinking of:

Main deck: -1 mutilate and -1 decree of pain for +2 infest

Sideboard: -1 gaea's blessing and -1 tormod's crypt for +2 infest

Would also like to take out -4 sphere of resistance but I dont know what to put in for them that would hinder solidarity. I would like the card to be a permanent that stays in play. I had a suggestion of wrench mind.

Does anyone think that engineered plague is a better card than infest? I would say that I like the 1 black casting cost better but in this deck I shouldn't have a problem with that. It is consistent and stays in play to keep a good portion of goblins of the board and other rogue decks like elves and also some pesky white creatures.

Like to hear others thoughts on this deck. I will continously post because I am going to try and go to a legacy tournament once every other week so I will post my results so the source gurus can review and make comments.

NANTUKO_SHADY

11-26-2006, 10:28 PM

I'd like to come out and say that I think this is a hella-cool deck. I gave this deck a try a while ago and lets just say I was VERY unhappy with it's results. In my opinion, the deck is terrible, and it is rather inconsistent. I like the whole concept of owning creatures to the face and smashing down with Helldozer, but I just don't think the deck will cut it in major Legacy tournaments. I'm still not sold on the 61 card theory, but if that is what you want to do with the deck, then that's fine. However, @ maindeck Gaea's Blessing. WTF?!?! This card should be strictly sideboarded, and there should not be four of them. Especially in this deck, with 3x mainboard (which they shouldn't be), you have no way of getting rid of the card if you draw it. Top-decking Gaea's Blessing is not considered drawing the nuts. I personally don't believe that Gaea's Blessing is that strong against Solidarity, but if you insist on running it, move it to the sideboard. Trust me, you'll be much more satisfied with Blessing out of the main.

Oathmaster

11-27-2006, 07:05 AM

Would running 3 nights whisper in the place of the gaea's blessing be better? The gaea's blessing are in there in hope that the solidarity player messes up and can't rebound from them. Especially games 2 and 3 when you have your sideboard cards in to also hinder their plans. What are other alternatives to the 3 maindeck blessings? They won't go to the sideboard because I just have no room. Other ideas would be:
naturalize
blackmail
wrench mind
some more creature destruction (diabolic edict)
possibly mana acceleration (mox diamond, chrome mox)

If you take out the blessings you are pretty much throwing away game 1 entirely to the solidarity player. Is this acceptable?

Nightmare

11-27-2006, 08:19 AM

Threads merged.

Jim

11-27-2006, 08:36 AM

So, this is what I’ve been playing now for, well like forever. I like it, so I’m sticking with it. I came around to playing this deck in a roundabout way, and my former decks just kind of evolved into this deck. I'm going to continue to play it, because i don't think it really has any bad matchups - people just kinda get lucky, no joke.

Lands
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Cabal Coffers
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Bayou
11 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Polluted Delta

Creatures
3 Helldozer
1 Grave-Shell Scarab

Spells
2 Haunting Echoes
3 Chainer's Edict
2 Decree of Pain
2 Gaea's Blessing
3 Mutilate
3 Staff of Domination
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Duress
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard
2 Infest
2 Crime/Punishment
2 Underworld Dreams
2 Cranial Extraction
3 Wrench Mind
4 Leyline of the Void

The Card Choices:
Bayou – they’re pretty
Cabal – mana explosion (drop dozer a turn earlier, staff insanity, etc.)
Mires & Deltas – thins out deck, reshuffles for new cards to Top and gets green sources
Snow-covered (ice age) – I like the picture.
Tomb – I like having another green source besides bayou
Helldozer – he’s my go-to guy
Scarab – good synergy with top and he can’t ever truly die in less your tapped out - he's my back-up, good to draw once in a while
Haunting echoes – ends games
Edict - non-targeted removal, and I love that people forget about it being in my yard…it comes back.
Decree – uncounterable instant-speed critter killer and mass creature killer with draw cards bonus if you have the mana available
Blessing – draws a card, puts deeds and anything back in deck, reshuffles deck for top - game solidarity
Mutilate – mass removal that usually can take anything down, eventually
Staff – manipulate the whole world then untaps itself and does it again, and I once used it to help Helldozer kill 5 basic lands in one turn, yeah that’s nuts.
Hymn/Duress – disruption
Deed – instills fear in the hearts many, and kills most things in my way, and I just plop Top back on top of the library and draw
Top – with Scarab, with staff card drawing, it’s a sylvan library, and I’m never afraid to use it to draw disruption and such early, or to draw staff, helldozer, deed, etc. to get it out in play when opponent is tapped or emptied handed
Board:
Underworld Dreams - Solidarity, Gro, or if i just want dead cards (creature kill) out of deck against non-creature decks
Wrench – basically hymn 5-8 right here (take out creature kill stuff)
Extraction – cripples a bunch of decks if it gets to go off, for combo mostly, also good if there's only 1-2 win conditions in opponent's deck too
Crime/Punishment - against 5/3, decks with tokens, goblin, stax, etc. - basically a selective Deed

Matches with Decks:
From Mana Leak Open, Dual For Duals and Eternal Lock-In...

~Dual Draft~ (before I had deeds and 4 more fetches)
Solidarity 1-2 (got lucky game two and brainfreezed himself for 2 and got a flash of insight in response to a lethal echoes, I had won game one)
5/3 0-2 (didn’t have deeds, it was bad, but I almost it off with only Putrefy)
Suicide Black 2-0 (he couldn't keep up with my disruption, etc.)
R/g Beats 2-0 (i kill creatures, alot)
Goblin 2-0 (i kill creatures, alot)
Overall: 3-2

*Mana Leak Open*
Goblin 2-0 (he didn’t have fun)
Goblin 2-0 (he didn’t have fun either)
Iggy Pop 0-2 (lost before my first turn game one, and lost on his second turn game two)
Dredge-Atog 1-2 (the guy got lucky game two and didn’t dredge his last cunning wish to get a Corpse Dance, because all togs had been killed, I had one game one)
Madness 1-2
Angel Stompy 2-0 (he played creatures, I killed them…echoes)
Salvager Game 0-2 (Teammate, HerbigToo, he drew nuts hands and this was before putting leyline in, etc.)
Overall: 3-4
*Eternal Lock-In*
Goblin 2-0 (same old story...)
RG Survival 2-0 (against a teamate - Leyline game two, then creature kill and echoes game one)
Solidarity 0-2 (teammate, Mr. Nightmare - got insane draws, no joke)
UGw Gro 2-0 (it's like an auto win and with sideboard it was ridiculoous)
Solidarity 2-1 (teamate, Herbig - too much disruption for him to handle, but i gave him the win, because he did better in Type 1 to make overall finals)
Overall: 4-1

Notes:
- I'm a huge fan of Sensei's Divining Top in here, it works, trust me.
- Wrench mind is great, like i said it's Hymn 5-8
- Blessings are good because they put back threats and almost cycle for a card, PLUS i end up playing them on my opponent's yard a lot of the time -against gro it's all around good, against solidarity you put back fetchlands so that they draw land and not good stuff, against survival it's amazing (bye squee, anger, genesis, etc.) so you hurt you opponent's yard, then draw a card, what's not to like?

Lego

11-27-2006, 02:29 PM

I'm in a bit of a cynical mood today. Basically I was confused because this is a deck that is pretty much designed to have bad matchups. From what I remember, it pretty much goes like this:

Goblins- you're not going to go 50/50, but if you build it a little differently you'll get close. Probably 40% or so.
Solidarity- You'll win about 25% of these. Even with an awesome board, you just can't win game one, which really hurts this matchup.
Iggy Pop- Better than Solidarity. You'll probably win 35%
Deadguy Ale- LD is bad for you, so this one isn't great. Don't have any numbers though.

Threshold- You'll win about 85% of these. That's the whole reason to play this deck.
Rifter- Not that anyone plays it, but you can't lose.
Landstill- See Rifter.

Random Jank- You mostly win these, especially if they're aggro jank. I don't know how it does against Loam decks, but otherwise you don't have to fear much.

So yeah, Goblins, Solidarity, Iggy Pop, and Deadguy (or Red Death or any other aggressive black control packing LD) are bad matchups for you. I imagine other fast combo is as well. Some of Jack's other creations are also not good... I think Truffle Shuffle probably has a leg up on you.

Speaking of Truffle Shuffle, why play Train Wreck when you can play that? Isn't it just better?

NANTUKO_SHADY

11-27-2006, 05:49 PM

If you take out the blessings you are pretty much throwing away game 1 entirely to the solidarity player. Is this acceptable?

Night's Whisper would be a a fine replacement for the maindeck Blessings. And you are not throwing away the first game by removing the maindeck Blessings. You still have 8 discard spells and if you add Night's Whisper, thats just more ways to grab your discard spells. By no means am I saying that you are favored game one against Solidarity, but with maindeck Blessing, the odds aren't much different. Any good Solidarity player will play with possible Blessing in mind, and only under heavy amounts of pressure does the Solidarity player have to over-extend and hope you don't run Blessing. Your deck is very slow, and it isn't meant to be on the aggressive. Duress and Hymn alone isn't enough pressure to force the Solidarity player to go off. I would say that the only way Blessing could be helpful game 1 is if the Solidarity player is sucky, or doesn't expect any maindeck Blessing. If you are to choose to MD Blessing, then cut it down to 1 or 2, because 3 is overkill.

Oathmaster

12-09-2006, 03:22 PM

hello,

I made the following changes to my deck list from above and would like feedback.

Main Deck:
-3 gaeas blessing for +3 wrench mind
-1 mutilate for +1 engineered plague
-1 decree of pain for +1 engineered plague

Sideboard:
-1 tormods crypt for +1 engineered plague
-1 gaeas blessing for +1 engineered plague

I wanted to decrease my mana curve slightly in the maindeck so that is why 2 engineered plagues are main decked.

After the legacy tournament in Syracuse, I discovered that gaea's blessing does nothing against solidarity. Mr. Nightmare went off 1st game against and won after revealing 3 blessings in the deck. I would prefer to get rid of green cards for black cards anyways with the mana base so I went with wrench mind for more hand disruption. This should make my haunting echoes more effective.

I hope to go to a legacy tournament in the next couple of weeks and will post my results.

Jim

12-21-2006, 09:29 AM

hello,

Main Deck:
-3 Gaea's blessing for +3 wrench mind
-1 mutilate for +1 engineered plague
-1 decree of pain for +1 engineered plague

Sideboard:
-1 tormod's crypt for +1 engineered plague
-1 Gaea's blessing for +1 engineered plague

I think it might be bad to drop the Mutilate and Decree, so the Engineered Plagues' Decree is a possible uncounterable board clearer (cycle), draws you at least one card...are you that worried about Goblins killing you before turn four that you run Plagues MD? What else are the Plagues in there against? Killing unthreshed Nimble Mongoose? Soldier tokens? Just curious.

If you going to drop the Blessings, maybe you should try going back to what the deck originally had in place of them, which is Regrowth. You can get back hand destruction and other threats into your hand (if they don't have a hand or whatever).

I personally switched over to Blessing over regrowth, because of a few factors...
a) It can get your threats back the into the deck, then draws you a card
b) although it's not hard to play around for Solidarity, it's just something else they have to get around with hand destruction and board cards.

against opponents...
a) you can put back dead cards in against any opponent, if you don't want to disturb the top of you deck (good little Sensei's Top), then let's you draw the card you want from the top
b) can put dead cards (fetches) back in Solidarity, so they hit them and not draw spells
c) put cards cards back in against Threshold, keeping them off seven cards for a turn or two
d) it's a second turn MD possible answer to Reanimator (then board in Leylines)

TheInfamousBearAssassin

12-21-2006, 05:00 PM

Certainly I think I would run Blessing over Regrowth if I was running Top. I am having a hard time seeing where this build is better than Truffle Shuffle. The only matchup that really seems improved is Goblins, which is the most played deck, but still tends to be less than 20% of the field.

Incidentally, Solidarity players are in the habit of lying and saying that Gaea's Blessing doesn't do anything to them. This is, in fact, a lie. While it's not relevant to their amazing hands, if their hand has been picked apart by discard and, more importantly, you can get a clock going against them (dificult g1), it can randomly hose them in games.

NANTUKO_SHADY

12-21-2006, 07:05 PM

Incidentally, Solidarity players are in the habit of lying and saying that Gaea's Blessing doesn't do anything to them. This is, in fact, a lie. While it's not relevant to their amazing hands, if their hand has been picked apart by discard and, more importantly, you can get a clock going against them (dificult g1), it can randomly hose them in games.

Ok fair enough, obviousely Solidarity players don't enjoy seeing Gaea's Blessing in any deck that we face, especially ones with disruption and/or a clock. I have been hosed before in that exact situation, I was put under heavy pressure and disruption, so I was forced to go off and I didn't quite have enough to Stroke of Genius him, so I lost. I only see Gaea's Blessing being spectacular in this deck with either a.) A faster clock, b.) More disruption, or c.) A super good hand with turn 1 Duress and turn 2 Hymn.
I'm just saying from personal experience I would much rather see Gaea's Blessing played against me in this deck rather than in some random fast Aggro deck.

Oathmaster

12-22-2006, 06:40 PM

Hello,

Well here is the logic behind my thinking.

1) The solidarity matchup. I played solidarity for about 9 months. Loved the deck and I can honestly say I never had a problem with gaea's blessing. I played many tournaments and faced opponents that had blessings in their deck and it just did not stop me. For most solidarity players, they should be able to get around it. PS A couple weeks ago at a tournament, I was playing train wreck against solidarity and 1st game he revealed 3 blessings when he was going off and still beat me during that turn.

2) Go with regrowth over wrench mind. I was playing regrowth before the blessings. I like the blessings over regrowth but the problem I have is the green. Sometimes it is tough to keep green mana on the board. I would prefer to have the disruption in their so I can use it against solidarity. Yes, I know regrowth can go get it but it is a turn slower (depending on mana) or if you don't have anything in your graveyard it is useless. I like limiting my only green cards to crime//punishment and deed.

3) Cutting out mutilate and decree for 2 x maindeck plague. I am just trying to cut the mana curve a little bit. There are many cards in this deck that are mana extensive. Also, in very large tournaments, those first couple of rounds you never know what too expect. Elves, soldiers, and birds (i have seen birds in legacy) are just some random stuff that might come up. The plagues help against these, even though I should win any of these matchups with the old deck list. My goblin matchup also improves a little.

I am have been playtesting with a group of friends who are going to Columbus with me in May. They are playing solidarity and goblins.

Solidarity - WE have played 47 matches and I have won 33 of them. Side note is that I have only won 5 game 1. I generally always take game 2, love the sideboard. Game 3 solidarity just get that little extra push since they go first so I need 2 early game disruption and the wrench minds have helped alot.

Goblins - We have played 25 matches and I have won 22 of them. I don't know where people come up saying this is a 50/50 matchup. I think this is a give me match and would love to play against goblin opponents all day.

Sidenote- These players are decent legacy players. They make very few play errors and their deck lists are top notch. I designed both decks myself so that is how I know.

Presently I am playtesting 3 x top's for the 3 x wrench minds but have not liked it so far. I am still playtesting this so I currently have no stats.

I also checked out the timespiral list of cards again and don't think that anything would be beneficial for train wreck. What our other people's opinion on this? Am I correct?

Thanks

Clark Kant

12-28-2006, 05:59 PM

Happy Gilmore

12-29-2006, 09:10 AM

Here's a planar choas card (in Scrye) that might find it's way into this deck if you can make room...

Temporal Extortion BBBB (rare)
Sorcery
When you play (cardname), any player may pay half his or her life, rounded up. If a player does, counter Temporal Extortion.
Take an extra turn after this one.
#81/165

It either costs your opponents a ton of life, or is a cantrip that also lets you get in one more land drop and play more disruption.

What do you guys think?

I think you completely miss-understand the term cantrip. And besides the card is bad. No wait...maybe I should clarify that, very bad. It does absolutley nothing on its own, where Temporal Extortion gives you an extra turn "sometimes" a card like mutilate will effectively give you another turn always. Against agro anyway.

calosso

12-29-2006, 09:37 AM

Here's a planar choas card (in Scrye) that might find it's way into this deck if you can make room...

Temporal Extortion BBBB (rare)
Sorcery
When you play (cardname), any player may pay half his or her life, rounded up. If a player does, counter Temporal Extortion.
Take an extra turn after this one.
#81/165

It either costs your opponents a ton of life, or is a cantrip that also lets you get in one more land drop and play more disruption.

What do you guys think?

Another reason the card is bad is because it costs 4 B, in a three colored deck.
The card might be better in Jack Black.

Happy Gilmore

12-29-2006, 12:20 PM

Another reason the card is bad is because it costs 4 B, in a three colored deck.
The card might be better in Jack Black.

....

um...Train Wreck, not Truffle Shuffle. Colosso try, plz try not to be one of "those" posters.

:rolleyes:

Clark Kant

12-29-2006, 03:32 PM

Colosoo, as already pointed out, this is Train Wreck, not Truffle Shuffle.

I think you completely miss-understand the term cantrip. And besides the card is bad. No wait...maybe I should clarify that, very bad. It does absolutley nothing on its own, where Temporal Extortion gives you an extra turn "sometimes" a card like mutilate will effectively give you another turn always. Against agro anyway.

A cantrip is any card that replaces itself while producing a (usually) minor effect. Time Walk is indeed a cantrip since it replaces itself with the card drawn at the start of the extra turn you got, but one that produces a major effect. Extortion when allowed to be used as a Time Walk is a very major effect. It's an additional turn which translates to one more card drawn replacing the extortion (hence the cantrip), plus another land drop, with all lands untapped, another main phase and another attack phase. This is an extremely powerful effect especially in a deck that generates and makes good use of a massive amount of mana and never misses a land drop.

The fact that your opponent gets an "out", by losing half their life is the main problem with the card IMHO (if it was just a 4cc black Time Walk, I would like it a lot more). I'm not saying it should be played, it probably shouldn't, just that the card atleast warrants a mention.

As for mutilate, it makes no sense to bring that card up as the two cards don't serve the same function and I never once suggested replacing Mutilate with this.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

12-31-2006, 04:49 PM

Temporal Extortion is designed for a mono(ish) black deck that has early game pressure to capitalize on. In those decks, it could be good. Without a threat on the board, not so much. It's a situational Consume Spirit that can't hit creatures.

The point of maindecking Gaea's Blessing over Regrowth isn't to beat Solidarity game 1. Unless you get fairly lucky, this just won't happen. You shouldn't automatically scoop, but unless you get a steady stream of discard and then a Helldozer active or resolve a relevant Echoes, or unless they just seem mana screwed, you should be prepared to scoop fairly quickly.

The reason to run Gaea's Blessing over Regrowth main is that they perform very similar functions, with Regrowth usually being slightly worse in the early game, a little bit better in the mid-to-late game, and slightly worse in the late late game. Gaea's Blessing is also, believe it or not, an honest-to-God kill condition.

But.... post board, if you bring in an additional 9-12 pieces of hate/pressure for Solidarity, Gaea's Blessing becomes much more relevant. It's hard to answer Chalices and Chains of Metistophiles through discard and still have an answer to Blessing while a Grinning Demon is eating your face.

Clark Kant

12-31-2006, 05:11 PM

Yeah, I think you're right. The fact that your opponent can sac half their life to opt out probably makes Temporal Extortion too unreliable to play.

I know that this thread is for B/G MBC, but I was wondering if any of you Train Wreck veterans would be so kind as to help me with a Mono Black build of the deck. It's been a while since I played Train Wreck and I'm not sure if I did a good job of transferring it over to monoblack.

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=103501

Thanks in advance.

Oathmaster

01-01-2007, 11:48 AM

Here is a card from Planar chaos that will be going in train wreck.

Damnation
2BB
Destroy all creatures. Creatures can not be regenerated.

This is the black wrath of god :eek:

This is what I am toying with and I would like other peoples opinion.
My decklist is on the previous page and I would like to run 3 damnations. How about -2 decree of pain and -1 helldozer for +3 damnations.

That will give me no decree of pains but this card is cheaper and much more effective. I will also be left with 2 helldozers instead of 3. I also can get rid of 1 crime//punishment so should I keep the helldozer? What does everyone think? Do you purpose I get rid of something else?

I would love to hear everyone's thoughts.

Thanks

Tao

01-01-2007, 12:18 PM

Damnation is better than Mutilate, I would cut all Mutilates and play 4 Damnation.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

01-01-2007, 01:02 PM

The difference is slight enough that I would run 2/2 or 2/1 (or 2/3) and give Therapy/Meddling Mage the bird. Also, I don't want to have to collect that many because it's going to be expensive out of the gate.

Clark Kant

01-03-2007, 05:15 AM

So have you guys found any means to improve this deck's really poor percentages against certain decks.

Is it all about the sideboard at this point. And if so, can you offer any suggestions in the MBC thread I opened in Developmental.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

01-04-2007, 08:30 PM

I'm currently testing a list I'm using for the Extended PTQ season, but some of the changes might translate into Legacy, including adding the Sensei's Divining Tops.

It's obviously needs to be adjusted to fit in Hymns in this format, although I'm not sure what precisely I'd cut.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

4 Overgrown Tomb
10 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
3 Cabal Coffers

2 Helldozer
2 Decree of Pain
4 Shadow of Doubt
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Consume Spirit
3 Chainer's Edict
2 Mutilate
3 Putrefy
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Gaea's Blessing
1 Staff of Domination
1 Haunting Echoes
4 Duress

// Sideboard
4 Reap and Sow
2 Skeletal Scrying
2 Cranial Extraction
1 Consume Spirit
4 Skyshroud Blessing
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Mutilate

etrigan

01-05-2007, 07:58 AM

-4 Shadow of Doubt
+4 Hymn to Tourach

I doubt the effectiveness of Shadow of Doubt as anti-combo tech. Hymn, I think, would do a better job of disrupting them. And, more importantly, Hymn works against Solidarity, whereas Shadow of Doubt does not.

troopatroop

01-05-2007, 07:27 PM

Shadow of Doubt works against their Sac lands, and is a cantripping Sinkhole. It's incredible against Solidarity.

Cait_Sith

01-06-2007, 12:06 AM

Yawgmoth's Tomb as a 1-of would probably be nice.

Jim

01-06-2007, 01:19 AM

...some of the changes might translate into Legacy, including adding the Sensei's Divining Tops.

Yeah, Tops are some good in the deck. I've been running them since the end of last summer (a couple of hours before the Mana Leak Open).

Clark Kant

01-06-2007, 03:32 AM

So why are people playing Helldozer over something like Phage, the Untouchable?

Ideally, you play one of your dozen or so board sweepers, followed by a phage.

You then flashback cruel edict or use your staff of domination to neuter any blocker they may have played, and swing with Phage for the win, in just one turn.

But even without the ideal, odds are, after one of your board sweepers, your opponent won't have anything that can kill or trade with a 4/4 anyways, if they even have a blocker to cast in the first place.

The only matchup I could see Helldozer being better is Thres, and even their it's a close call.

HdH_Cthulhu

01-06-2007, 08:00 AM

I Think Both creatures are Bad... Why no Spiritmonger? It is Cheap, And it regenerates...

BTW:
Astral Slide > Phage, the Untouchable
Edit: damn shift...

Jim

01-06-2007, 10:01 AM

I Think Both creatures are Bad... Why no Spiritmonger? It is Cheap, And it regenerates...

Dude, get in the game and read the thread. Just to make it easy on you, read page 7ish.

Here's a recap...
Helldozer
- it hits turn five w/coffers, same as monger, but doesn't require second color
- against Thresh, goblin, burning tog, loam, etc. it can clear their land in like 2 turns
- helldozer is a utility that gets rid of the one thing the rest of the deck can't: land
- he still beats for six, once the way is clear
- he gets swords'd, that's a swords in the graveyard for echoes, then no more swords for the next helldozer that hits
there were about another 20 points made.

Lego

01-06-2007, 02:09 PM

Astral Slide < Phage, the Untouchable

I think you mean Astral Slide > Phage, the Untouchable. Remember, the Pac Man wants to eat the bigger number.

Clark Kant

01-06-2007, 02:24 PM

Against a lot of decks, I've found Helldozers land destruction to be really slow.

This deck doesn't play that many more lands than other decks. If by turn 8 you have 5 lands, odds are, they have 4-5 as well, only most other decks are designed to operate on just 2-3 lands. So by the time your land destruction even starts to matter against a deck running basics (thres is the only prominent deck that plays predominantly nonbasics), it takes many turns, and against many aggressive decks, you're already dead by then.

troopatroop

01-06-2007, 02:31 PM

Clark Kant

01-06-2007, 03:30 PM

You are bad at Magic.

Bravo, that's the best response from someone because they couldn't make an actual counterpoint I've ever hard.

I'm not sure this is the right forum for posting spam though. I suggest taking your posts to the Developmental forum. They feel more right over there.

troopatroop

01-06-2007, 05:35 PM

Bravo, that's the best response from someone because they couldn't make an actual counterpoint I've ever hard.

I'm not sure this is the right forum for posting spam though. I suggest taking your posts to the Developmental forum. They feel more right over there.

Thanks.

See above. - Zilla

Daze

01-06-2007, 05:57 PM

Long life the flamers... Helldozer is in there because it does 2 things at once (I guess -.-). It destroys lands and is big, most of the time you will be able to take advantage of both aspects at the same time because we have many non-basics around. Operating on only 2-3 lands is hard since Dozer eats them away quite fast and after some time you will get into topdeckmode. Dozer something like Smokestack and Karn in one, it seals the deal (you opponent should have no board -except lands- with all your sweepers and Dozer just eats away the only thing you don't destroy otherwise- lands.

Jim

01-07-2007, 03:05 AM

...your opponent should have no board -except lands- with all your sweepers and Dozer just eats away the only thing you don't destroy otherwise- lands.

exactly.

This deck doesn't play that many more lands than other decks. If by turn 8 you have 5 lands, odds are, they have 4-5 as well...

First, the deck DOES play more lands than other decks - the original from Jack played what 24? 25? That's like at least 6 more land than most other decks play. My version plays 27, so I'm pretty good at hitting land-drops, but that's besides the point. Second, by turn eight they might have those 4-5 lands you mentioned, but they probably don't have anything else in play (creatures or otherwise) and might be down a few cards in their hand as well. Third, a coffers, several swamps, helldozer and a staff of domination makes even basics easy to pick off a couple each turn.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

01-07-2007, 03:43 AM

Phage usually wins if she hits. Helldozer usually wins if he untaps. You can see at once why you would rather run Helldozer.

Clark Kant

01-11-2007, 01:13 AM

I was just wondering for what reasons Phyrexian Arena was never played in this deck.

Here is the mono black versions of the deck that I'm trying to decide between. Any suggestions.

I'm really keen on Phyrexian Arena. Should it be played here?

22 Swamp
4 Cabal Coffers
4 Promise of Power
4 Consume Spirit
4 Duress
4 Hymn
4 Oblivion Stone
4 Damnation
4 Innocent Blood
4 Chainer's Edict/2 Decree of Pain, 2 Helldozer
2 Haunting Echoes

And lastly, for those who are curious, here is the creature coffers...

Magus of the Coffers
Creature - Human Wizard
2,: Add B to your mana pool for each swamp you control.

4/4

He would allow for some massive massive Consume Spirits, but beyond that, I don't see to much great stuff about him.

Oathmaster

01-15-2007, 11:03 AM

TheInfamousBearAssassin

01-16-2007, 09:15 PM

Arena isn't played because of Deed and the fact that Scrying would be almost strictly better (but isn't great right now, due to the whole Goblins issue).

I think the new black card is probably the most over-rated new rare I've seen since Hunted Horror. 1/5th the Echoes at 1/5th the mana cost, but it still costs you 100% of the same card, and that's missing why Echoes is good. It might be a decent sideboard card in some formats, but not a good maindeck card.

Jim

01-16-2007, 11:10 PM

What does anyone think of this card in train wreck?

Eradication - B
Instant
Split Second
Choose target card, other than basic land, in a graveyard. Search its controller's graveyard, hand and library for all cards with same name and remove them from the game.

I think that I am going to try and run 2 in maindeck and 2 in sideboard...It would also help against solidarity to get rid of reset or turnabout, possibly meditate.
Overall, I'd rather leave that spot for Haunting Echoes for now, but in the future we'll see. It differently needs to be tested before jumping right to running 4 copies total.

The card might impact some games, but it doesn't have the ability to end games upon resolution the way Haunting Echoes does. Chances are if Echoes resolves against Solidarity (or other decks), that means it's at least turn five and they have relevant stuff in the graveyard. If nothing else, they probably have brainstorm, impulse and remand (or something) in the yard, and that's good enough of a start.

...threshold match up a little easier.
"Easier"? They lay creatures, you kill them. What's easier than that?

Finn

01-18-2007, 01:21 PM

I think the new black card is probably the most over-rated new rare I've seen since Hunted Horror. 1/5th the Echoes at 1/5th the mana cost, but it still costs you 100% of the same card, and that's missing why Echoes is good. It might be a decent sideboard card in some formats, but not a good maindeck card.

While it is definitely sb only material (seriously when was the last time a set was printed where the forum rats didn't sh!t themselves about some card only to find that it is nothing special? - Angel's Grace comes instantly to mind), I think that this card should never, ever be compared to Haunting Echoes for purposes of design space. One is a finisher. The other is disruption with some annoyance potential.

Echoes all the way.

Oathmaster

01-18-2007, 08:53 PM

Hello,

I am not planning on taking out any haunting echoes. I was thinking possibly taking out

-1 helldozer (takes me to 2)
-1 wrench mind (takes me to 2)
for +2 of the new black card.

My deck runs 14 discard spells so I should be able to target something worthwhile to remove. I think the card could possibly help in the landstill, iggy pop, TES, and solidarity matchups. Of course playtesting will reveal this though.

Tao

01-18-2007, 09:46 PM

Null Profusion 4bb
Enchantment (TS) R

Skip your draw step.
Whenever you play a card, draw a card.
Your maximum hand size is two.

___

Black Recycle seems like it can be a great draw Engine for the deck. It should gain overwhelming Card Advantage without paying Mana each time you draw.

Oathmaster

01-19-2007, 06:02 PM

Hello,

The new black recycle looks good but the problem is the high casting cost. This deck already runs anywhere from 4 to 7 casting cost spells above 4. I think running more spells that are in this higher casting cost range will be trouble. I currently run 8 of these spells (3 helldozers, 3 haunting echoes, 2 decree of pain) and I frequently wish I did not have all these cards in my deck based upon my opening hands. That is why I am looking for other possible solutions and card replacements when planar chaos comes out. My decrees will be changed to damnations and I think I am going to take out 1 helldozer for the next mini echoes.

I do think the new black recycle would be worth playtesting though.

Jim

01-20-2007, 03:56 AM

I think it's a really bad idea to cut Decree of Pain from the deck; it's the only instant speed way to kill creatures in the deck (in less you have a deed on the table). While Damnation might cost less than Decree in it's sorcery mode, it's not going to help you out when it's their turn and they have Goblin Warchief on the table, etc. One reason that this deck smashes Gro is because it doesn't matter what they name with mage, because you have such a variety of creature kill, one way or another you going to get everything dead, so i think it's a bad idea to limit that variety. Next, I would cut a staff, before I would cut a Helldozer, because I've already done just that, but anyway, staff is very good sometimes when drawn ,and helldozer is good ALL times it's drawn. Plus, it takes a while to get the mana available to really get staff going and with helldozer the turn after it's in play, having 6 six mana is fine, that's two possible lands down. So, cut staff over helldozer if you have to cut something.

Question: what would you cut for the Null Profusion? I think I'd rather have staff than this - staff is just way more versatile. Sure, you have to pay 5, but it gives you the options of tapping down attacker, gaining to you back life after you stabilize at a low life and you can untap helldozer after kill basic land to attack or to kill more land. I like options.

GreenOne

01-20-2007, 01:42 PM

Chances are if Echoes resolves against Solidarity (or other decks), that means it's at least turn five and they have relevant stuff in the graveyard. If nothing else, they probably have brainstorm, impulse and remand (or something) in the yard, and that's good enough of a start.

I'm a Solidarity player and a see how the new card can be frightening as it can't be countered and responded to. It's faster too and can do tricks mid combo. Yeah, Echoes is great, but it can be Remanded (and that's a timewalk if done early in the game), it can be forced without pitching a card (as it comes online on turn 5), you can combo in resp. You can counter it with cunning wish for force G2 (if you sided out one) and with a Flash of insight flashback (well, you can still remove all the fetchlands..). Echoes can be GG, but this new card can help too (well, at least it's worth some testing)

Tao

01-20-2007, 02:49 PM

I guess this deck is getting ridicoulously good with Profusion. It should add Dark Rituals to the list, so that it can power out the Profusion earlier (or a Decree if you draw no Profusion).

Note that Null Profusion is just sick with Regrowth (especially a Regrowth chain with enough Mana) and it gets even better if you have 2 of them in play. If you play 2-3 Blessings MD it gets really nasty, maybe this deck can get a new structure.

MasterC

06-05-2007, 05:00 AM

Good morning,

sorry for digging out this Thread, but I think after the Banning of Flash and a Rennaissance of Fish and NQG, this Deck should be able to win games again.

I'm currently running this List:

4x Polluted Delta
3x Bloodstained Mire
4x Bayou
10x Swamp
3x Cabal Coffers
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

2x Helldozer
1x Phage the Untouchable

2x Haunting Echoes
4x Pernicious Deed
4x Innocent Blood
3x Mutilate
2x Decree of Pain
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Duress
3x Staff of Domination
3x Regrowth
3x Putrefy

SB:
4x Engineered Plague / Cabal Therapy
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Extirpate
4x Grinning Demon

Unfortunately, I've not been able to test this Deck against all Archetypes (we're only a small group of players with few real competitive Legacy Decks, and all I know is this Deck has a nice Matchup against Faerie Stompy and Vaka Beatz :tongue: )

Could somebody please answer my Questions:

1. Before Sideboarding, this Deck obviously has very Bad Goblin and Combo Matchups. Should the Sideboard be straight anti-Combo, or do engineered Plagues turn the Goblin Matchup to our favor?

2. Are the Decrees really that good, or should they be replaced by other Creature removal, for example Contagion, or even by maindeck extirpates?

3. Does it make sense to replace Cabal Coffers with Dark Ritual and Staff of Domination with Phyrexian Arena? This would of course change the whole Deck structure but also make the Deck much faster. (It often stabilizes on a nerve-racking low Lifecount and then all you can do is pray that you top-deck a removal spell at the right time)

4. Should Scrublands be added to splash Vindicate and Swords to Plowshares instead of Putrefy and Innocent Blood?

5. What would your sideboard look like in the current meta?

Regards, MasterC

Hummingbird TG

06-05-2007, 11:40 AM

Slight flaw in your reasoning there. The rise in numbers of Fish, Countersliver and NQG was bue to Flash being legal. Now that its banned, you wont see too much of Fish running around, and same for Countersliver(sure, you have some fans of those running around, but no absurd numbers...)

Nydaeli

06-05-2007, 11:59 AM

this Deck has a nice Matchup against Faerie Stompy and Vaka Beatz :tongue:

Lies! Turn 1 Blood Moon hoses you so hard! :wink:

MasterC

06-05-2007, 12:00 PM

I don't think people switch decks THAT fast. NQG and to a certain extent Fish are also heavy-played decks in a non-flash environment.

advisory6000

06-07-2007, 09:40 PM

4. Should Scrublands be added to splash Vindicate and Swords to Plowshares instead of Putrefy and Innocent Blood?

Check out a deck called Truffle Shuffle, it's a upgrade from Train Wreck.

Cait_Sith

07-13-2007, 10:23 PM

With a less stable mana base and less capability for card advantage. I like Trainwreck more.

Also, Thresh is now the top deck in Legacy and Trainwreck has an amazing Thresh Mu, far more so than Truffles.

nitewolf9

08-08-2007, 12:58 PM

I have been playing around with ideas for this deck as of late because I generally like anything that runs pernicious deed. I know living wish was discussed way back but I think it would be good to discuss it once again. I also really like korlash but that just may be an unhealthy fascination:

6 win:
4 korlash
2 haunting echoes

27 control:
4 duress
4 hymn to tourach
4 pernicious deed
3 chainer's edict
3 putrefy
2 decree of pain
3 staff of domination
4 living wish
3 sensei's divining top

land 25:
4 polluted delta
4 bloodstained mire
4 bayou
10 swamp
3 cabal coffers

board:
4 infest
4 leyline of the void
1 tombstalker
1 helldozer
1 mesmeric fiend
1 tabernacle at pendrill vale
1 cabal coffers
1 withered wretch
1 eternal witness

Now I would be really afraid of cephalid breakfast and friggorid with this deck so I think leylines are probably good in the board (could be crypts I suppose).
Infest is for goblins obviously. The wishboard also gives us access to tabernacle as an etw answer and a bomb against goblins. Maze of ith might be good against breakfast if they run the ghoul kill and it seems descent as a random answer to things but I couldn't fit it in the board. Boseiju is another possibility but I'm not sure when I'd actually wish for it...against landstill there seem to be better targets and you are already favored heavily against them, and the same goes with threshold. You can get haunting echoes to resolves through discard and wishing for mesmeric fiend.
Wretch, eternal witness, and fiend seem self explanatory, and helldozer is there as a win condition because "it's fucking helldozer". Tombstalker also seems useful as he can potentially come out really early.

Any thoughts on this?

Lego

08-08-2007, 01:06 PM

With a less stable mana base but a whole hell of a lot more capability for card advantage. I like Truffle Shuffle much more.

Also, Thresh is now the top deck in Legacy and Truffle Shuffle has an amazing Thresh Mu, even if it is a teensy bit worse than Trainwreck (oh noes, an 85% matchup instead of a 90% one?) It gains that percentage back in the Goblins and Combo matchups, where it's betterer.

Fixed for truthiness.

NANTUKO_SHADY

08-08-2007, 01:07 PM

I like this list, and I am glad to see someone is working on the deck again. I used to play this deck way back, and it was a blast! I may start testing this list too. Any deck with Staff of Domination and Cabal Coffers is cool in my book!

steffri666

08-31-2007, 05:05 AM

I play another version of this deck and its a blast against all those Thresh decks around. I have a couple of Questions after the list:

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Tombstalker
2 Helldozer
2 Consume Spirit
1 Haunting Echoes
3 Staff of Domination
3 Chainer's Edict
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Putrefy
3 Smother
3 Decree of Pain
4 Cabal Coffers
4 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
11 Swamp

SB
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Krosan Grip
1 Putrefy
3 Pithing Needle
4 Extirpate

Yeah I know that is a shitload of removal, but guess what: Goofy is dead! :)
Questions:
Considering the creatures: I like Dozer and Stalker but I'm thinking about Korlash or Spiritmonger. What do you think? Oh and I almost forgot my all time favourite black Creature: Ihsan's Shade. Eat that StP!

Only 1 Echoes, sometimes I'd like to have more, but usually its enough. This brought out the question about including a tutor: either janky Diabolic or expensive, $ and life, Grim or a very narrow tutor and shitty removal spell in Brainspoil which could search for Spiritmonger as well.

The Goblin matchup is not perfect but the removal suite makes it doable plus there is not much goblins around anymore. Hence no Plague or sweeper in the board.

Decree of Pain: I love this card and maybe im holding on to it without reasoning. It does not do much against thresh, its usually too slow to hit mongoose or goyf. Its good against landstill's factory and shines against fish. Btw if cycling gets stifled you get no card and no -2-2 right?

The board is to prepare more for Combo. Therapy and Needle fit this.
My graveyard hoser of choice is now Extripate but this is a very open slot to any grave hoser. I like it against Life from the Loam which is played more around here and its good against Cephalid Breakfast. Echoes is just too slow ins some cases.

Grip against anything Enchantment or Artifact and Putrefy is more artifact removal (Needle on Deed) which gets rid of creatures too. Probably unnecessary.

Id like to include Negators to have more of a clock against combo, but its on the decline with all the aggro control running around and I have a very good warrens game anyway.

Nihil Credo

08-31-2007, 07:24 AM

Did you find Putrefy was much better than Punishment? The two cards seem very close, but Punishment's ability to give you card advantage and to handle EtW tokens may give it the edge in most metagames. Without turning the deck into Truffle Shuffle, it hardly hurts your manabase to include a single Scrubland to steal stuff now and then, or to open up SB options for matchups where you do not fear LD.

I'd drop the Tombstalker. I played it for a while, but you just don't give a shit about keeping mana untapped in the lategame. And a 5/5 flyer is hardly impressive. Spiritmonger and Shade both seem good idea, although I'd go with the Monger first because of how it rules board combat. Korlash is close to strictly worse than Spiritmonger.

Edit: Cycling Decree of Pain creates two items on the stack: a triggered ability that gives -2/-2 to all creatures on top, and an activated ability that draws you a card on the bottom. A single Stifle can only counter one of these.

steffri666

08-31-2007, 08:07 AM

I like the instant speed of Putrefy and that it can kill opposing big guys for cheap, i had some weird games destroying fatties with it. It is a downside against creatures like mongoose or Troll Ascetic, though. I think I dismissed Punishment too fast and will give it another try. With that name its gotta be good (Biohazard).
What I like about Tombstalker is that he can come down very fast some times and the flying is a good thing. I will try out Spiritmonger and probably 1 Brainspoil for tutoring. It can get Punishment (Crime is 5) right?
And thankx for giving Ihsan's Shade some love!

Thankx for the info about the decree, too. I was just wondering because there is no "you may..." on it like on Decree of Justice.

So the changes I will try would be:
- 2 Tombstalker
- 2 Putrefy
- 1 Smother
- 1 Swamp

+ 2 Spiritmonger
+ 2 Crime/Punishment
+ 1 Brainspoil
+ Scrubland

That looks quite promising.

Joon

09-15-2007, 06:20 PM

What's about Sensei's Divining Top in this deck? I mean, Arena sux because of Deed & Punishment, but Top can be saved so that it doesn't matter.
P.S.: Now I know where to play FNM Coffers :tongue:

Jak

11-17-2007, 05:25 PM

I have been playing around with Truffle Shuffle and Trainwreck lately. I like both decks a lot, so I bought the cards. Well, I am still waiting on some Vindicates and the white duals in the mail, so I made TW. I didn't really like how the deck was so slow to get going so I took out a few cards here and there to make the curve a little lower and added some different win conditions and a different draw engine. Here is the list.

4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
7 Swamp
4 Forest

3 Haunting Echoes
2 Gigapede

3 Sensei's Diving Top
3 Krosan Tusker

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Extirpate

4 Smother
4 Diabolic Edict (should probably be 2/2 split with Chaniners, but I don't have them right now)
2 Crime/Punishment
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Damnation

SB (something like this)
4 Phyrexian Negator
2 Extirpate
1 Damnation
2 Crime/Punishment
2 Krosan Grip
4 Infest

It is quite different from the usual TW lists. Tusker with Volrath is awesome because it is a recurrable shuffle effect, land grabber, and blocker in the late game. The deck still owns Thresh. The big thing is no Coffers. It really isn't needed when you don't play staff or drain life and it is bad early game.

I played a few quick games with the list and the deck performed awesome. My friend was playing DS. I keep an okay hand, but still destroy him. Echoed twice then Extirpated his last win-con. I got my engine out mid game and it won the game for me. Using top in the upkeep, if I didn't find anything, I got back Piggy and shuffled away the crap. It was extremely fun. Thoughts on the list?

Edit- Something that should be in my list is 1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All. I still need to pick some up, but that card can be amazing. Uncounterable Damnations, Echoes, Edicts, Smothers, and Crimes is amazing. So I took out a Forest for 1 MD and may add one in the SB.

Hoojo

11-25-2007, 05:48 PM

With all the new tools black has received, a deck built in a more traditional Trainwreck formula has great potential in a Threshold filled Legacy.

Trainwreck:
//Land
4x Bayou
4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Cabal Coffers
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
12x Swamp
1x Overgrown Tomb

//Creatures
4x Shriekmaw

//Other Spells
4x Damnation
4x Pernicious Deed
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Thoughtseize
4x Chainer's Edict
3x Staff of Domination
2x Haunting Echoes
2x Regrowth
2x Krosan Grip
2x ???

All in all, you have 8 mass removal slots, 8 creature removal, 8 disruption slots, 6 win conditions, and several auxillary slots. I left two slots open as I can't really think of anything else, as its really open to many choices. I almost threw Tarmogoyf in there, but I don't think he fits. Adding in a couple more fetches may be necessary if you have trouble getting green mana, but overall I've had no trouble. Thoughtseize and Shriekmaw help this decks matchup against Goblins and faster Aggro, as they aren't dead games where Helldozer and Duress would be.

Other cards for consideration:

Urza's Factory: Seems like this card might have a place in a long game, particularly in a deck that can produce 7 mana fairly easily.

Consume Spirit/Corrupt: Either of these are traditional win cards for Coffers-based decks, and I think they deserve consideration.

Leyline of the Void/Extirpate: For those faster graveyard dependant decks like Ichorid and Cephalid Breakfast.

pimpxxxdaddy42069

11-26-2007, 12:42 AM

Hello everybody!

I won a small extended tourney with mono black helldozer control awhile ago and have loved the card and the raw power of this deck ever since. We have a legacy tournament coming up soon and I've decided I should stick to an archetype that i am relatively familiar with (though I haven't ported it to legacy yet). Anyways, the card collections of most of the people here aren't too massive and since I know most of them I have a few insights on what decks will be played and wanted you're guys opinion on how trainwreck will do for them. My decklist hasn't been completed yet but I will post it soon. Here are the decks I'm likely to see-

-Life
-2 or 3 goblin decks (not all of them will have mained rishadan ports though)
-doran domain zoo (pretty awesome deck if noone has seen it yet. goyfs, kird apes, doran, watchwolfs, confidants, jittes, burn burn burn)
-black discard disruption variants (probably red death, maybe a pikula version, and more likely mono black speedy dark ritual powered ones with hymms/specters/confidants/negators etc)
-ravager affinity (but probably not teched out ones with chalice and force of wills)
- maaaybe a threshold but probably not teched out netdecked ones
- psychatog (u/b/g versions likely with misdirects, deeds, forces, isochron scepters and so forth)
- other zoo decks (a lot like ravinca standard zoo decks but with some more powerful replacements)
- scepter chant
- janky weird aggro/combo decks
- maaaaybe a high tide/solidarity but not likely
- mono red burn
- sutured ghoul combo decks

so do you think helldozer can stand up to this meta?

I also havent seen too much debate about some promising looking cards and would like your opinions on their possible uses-

sudden death- split second, kills psychatog, underpowered ravager, teferi/scepter chant lock (is teferi even played in legacy though?)

imp's mischief- black target changer with a small drawback? I've played this as a sideboard card in standard alot with minimal success but it could be a good answer to sinkholes, vindicates, burn, opposing hymms/discard. I also think it can redirect a counterspell to itself and help force a spell through a counter fight. I may be wrong about this though.

thoughtsieze- I am considering taking out the hymms to the board and playing 4 duress and 4 thoughtsieze. In my experience the best use of these cards are for early disruption and later in the game to help resolved a threat like haunting echoes or helldozer. Thoughtsieze also can grab a creature which could help the gobbo matchup. I expect more aggro over control and combo decks so I could easily tune my board to more discard effects.

consume spirit- I'm going to maindeck 3 or 4 of these I believe. Against decks without countermagic it is just excellent. it against a lot of aggro decks it is golden. Lategame it makes for the best topdecks imaginable. The majority of my experience playing this deck, consume spirit was my typical win condition when helldozers were dealt with.

twisted abomination-early mana fixer, deck shuffler thinner, 5/3 regenerating beat stick? I like this card but not sure on it's viability in this format.

urborg, tomb of yawgmoth- I want to play as a one of to make the boseiju and cabal coffers give some more gas. also has helped a lot when I've gotten a multiple coffers draw and few swamp.

sensei's diving top- better/ earlier draw engine or strictly inferior to staff of domination? I know the staff absoluetly kills in this deck but i get the feeling it might be too slow for legacy and I would be better off running 1 less staff and a couple of these. I dont' really know though.

sextirpate- as a sideboard card. It's powerful, it's graveyard hate, it's uncounterable. is the effect powerful enough to be worth sideboard space?

krosan grip- uncounterable, but does this deck need more artifact hate beyond pernicious deeds? and is three too expensive if your trying to stop something like scepter chant or counterspell on a stick?

edit- oh yeah last card up for consideration phyrexian totem- hot or not?

I'll have a decklist posted up soon. peace!

Nihil Credo

11-26-2007, 02:50 PM

I wouldn't play Train Wreck in that meta. The absolutely #1 reason to play the deck is how it crushes blue-based aggro-control (Threshold and Fish), and you have very little of that. Life is a so-so matchup at best, and aggro decks packing burn are bad. If Suicide Black runs land destruction, that's one other deck I wouldn't want to face.

In that metagame, I would abuse the lack of blue and run the fastest combo deck available - Belcher, or Ichorid if you feel there won't be much graveyard hate running around.

pimpxxxdaddy42069

11-27-2007, 03:41 PM

OKay here is what my deck list is shaping up to so far-

disruption

4 duress
4 hymm to tourach

destruction

3 innocent blood
3 diabolic edict
4 pernicious deeds
3 damnation

utility

2 staff of domination (might bump to 3)

draw

4 night's whisper

kill
3 consume spirit
3 helldozer
2 haunting echoes

land is not belted out completely yet but will prolly be something like-

4 cabal coffers
4 saclands for swamps (maybe a 2/2 split)
4 bayou
1 overgrown tomb
1 urborg tomb of yawgmoth
9 swamp

sideboard is going to round out the creature destruction but be geared towards control-

1 innocent blood
1 diabolic edict
3 thoughtsieze or distress (money/accumulating card contraints)
4 sextirpate
3 krosan grip
3 imp's mischief

decree of pain- i absoluetly love this card, but I think there is enough creature kill already and replacing it with 2x nights whispers seems like it will help lower the curve, speed up the deck, and provided a good source of card advantage. I found a lot with this deck you want to lay down land after land and if you've got a land light draw being able to cast turn two nights whisper can help you not miss your drops.

innocent blood and diabolic edict- I'm expecting a pretty aggro oriented meta and the cheap cost along with the non targeting of these cards should be enough to hold off for a deeds or damnation.

night's whisper- I had arena in their originally and was debating about skeletal scrying but like I said above, it is cheap and effective draw that can get you out of a land crunch but i'll admit I haven't teted skeletal scrying yet.

imp's mischief- throw a hymn to tourach back at someones face. needs testing though I do believe there will be a number of targeted discard effects goin on at the tourney.

@ nihil- I would actually love to play a nice speedy combo deck but since I've never actually played a combo deck and don't own a single card for any of the established combo deck beyond basic mountain and dark ritual I probably wouldn't do so hot. I'm pretty sure there is going to be a life deck there but I realized that haunting echoes is pretty versatile for stally decks like that.

pimpxxxdaddy42069

11-28-2007, 06:40 PM

about helldozer inclusion argument that is so on and off in this thread- helldozer kicks ass. no really. just play him. I don't know how many times i've dropped the guy, destroyed 2-3 lands and then beat for 6. even if a deck is designed to run off 2-3 lands and even runs basics this guy can manascrew your opponent but cutting off a color or destroying some sort of utility land. I can't count the number of games i've gotten this guy active and completely completely completely crushed my opponent with him. the kind of crushing almost teary-eyed sadness that only a bulldozing zombie can bring to a relationship. He really is a must answer critter alongside cabal coffers.

pimpxxxdaddy42069

12-01-2007, 01:31 PM

and once again the my uncanny ability to absoluetly kill any thread i post in shines through. Anwyays here's my updated deck list-

disruption

4 duress
4 hymm to tourach

destruction

3 innocent blood
3 chainer's edict
4 pernicious deeds
3 damnation

utility

3 staff of domination

draw

4 night's whisper

kill
3 consume spirit
3 helldozer
2 haunting echoes

4 cabal coffers
2 polluted delta
2 bloodstained mire
4 bayou
1 overgrown tomb
1 urborg tomb of yawgmoth
10 swamp

side board
1 innocent blood
1 chainer's edict
4 krosan grip
4 leyline of the void
4 imp's mischief
1 distress (don't know what else to 1 of here, maybe a crime // punishment, mabye cut a imp's mischief for 2 more pieces of hand disruption)

okay some questioning has revealed a number of affinity decks were running around at the last legacy tournament here. I haven't really played affinity that often so do you guys think this deck will be able to handle affinity game 1? and if you pernicious deeds all their permanents away with a disciple of the vault out, does the life loss trigger?

diffy

12-01-2007, 01:59 PM

You shouldn't be in too bad shape against Affinity because Deed is just such a beating and you should be able to handle early bleeding/Disciple of the Vault.

Nevertheless, I have a revisited version of Train Wreck which I built and tested some weeks ago for a friend... it trades the clunky late game stuff (Helldozer, Staff -> winmore as you are the shark in the lategame and will win. Definetely. The question is only how to reach it.) for more earlygame removal and better draw/recursion engine in Life from the Loam. In testing it did quite well against the field but with a serious autoloss against combo which you'll have to acept (the original version also didn't even have a fighting chance so that doesn't really make any difference).

Here's the list:

//// Originial Version (outdated, slightly more up-to date version further down)

/// Maindeck (60 cards)

// Lands
1 Bloodstained Mire (http://magiccards.info/on/en/313.html)
1 Polluted Delta (http://magiccards.info/on/en/321.html)
2 Windswept Heath (http://magiccards.info/on/en/328.html)
4 Bayou (http://magiccards.info/al/en/278.html)
2 Forest (http://magiccards.info/apac1/en/1.html)
2 Swamp (http://magiccards.info/apac1/en/5.html)
1 Scrubland (http://magiccards.info/al/en/289.html)

4 Barren Moor (http://magiccards.info/on/en/312.html)
4 Tranquil Thicket (http://magiccards.info/on/en/326.html)
2 Wasteland (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/340.html)
1 Volrath's Stronghold (http://magiccards.info/sh/en/137.html)
1 Treetop Village (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/361.html)
1 Cabal Pit (http://magiccards.info/od/en/315.html)
1 Maze of Ith (http://magiccards.info/dk/en/114.html)

// Creatures
1 Gigapede (http://magiccards.info/on/en/264.html)
1 Grave-Shell Scarab (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/211.html)
1 Shriekmaw (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/139.html)
4 Eternal Witness (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/86.html)

// Spells
3 Ghastly Demise (http://magiccards.info/od/en/139.html)
2 Innocent Blood (http://magiccards.info/od/en/145.html)
3 Smother (http://magiccards.info/on/en/170.html)
2 Engineered Explosives (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/118.html)
1 Crime/Punishment (http://magiccards.info/di/en/182.html)
4 Pernicious Deed (http://magiccards.info/ap/en/114.html)
3 Damnation (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/85.html)

4 Life from the Loam (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/172.html)
3 Thoughtseize (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/145.html)
1 Haunting Echoes (http://magiccards.info/od/en/142.html)

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
1 Maze of Ith (http://magiccards.info/dk/en/114.html)
1 Engineered Explosives (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/118.html)
1 Thoughtseize (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/145.html)
4 Engineered Plague (http://magiccards.info/ul/en/51.html)
4 Perish (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/41.html)
4 Extirpate (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/71.html)

//// Updated Version

/// Maindeck (60 cards)

// Lands (26)
4 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Windswept Heath
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
4 Barren Moor
4 Tranquil Thicket
1 Cabal Pit
1 Treetop Village
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith

// Win Conditions (3)
1 Gigapede
1 Grave-Shell Scarab
1 Haunting Echoes

// Removal (19)
2 Ghastly Demise
3 Innocent Blood
2 Smother
2 Shriekmaw
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Damnation
1 Crime/Punishment
2 Engineered Explosives

// Card Advantage (12)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Life from the Loam
4 Eternal Witness

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
1 Maze of Ith
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
4 Perish
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

The deck is heavily tailored to defeat any sort of aggro control and doesn't do too bad against other control thanks to a good draw engine (Life from the Loam) and unremovable threats.
The numbers in the mainboard are fairly tested out, but the sideboard is wide open.
If you have any questions, just ask.

I'd consider going 4 Duress 4 Thoughtseize rather than one of them plus Hymn, now that the option is available. They're much better against combo.

I so agree with this. They are better generally. Even if Hymn to Tourach generates card advantage, in control I just find it better to be able to pick the best card in my opponents hand and not have to deal with it instead of 2 random cards (which might be blanks).

Illissius

12-01-2007, 02:05 PM

I'd consider going 4 Duress 4 Thoughtseize rather than one of them plus Hymn, now that the option is available. They're much better against combo.

ACME_Myst

12-02-2007, 07:27 AM

fetchesbasiclands

12-02-2007, 07:34 AM

How bad is duress against thresh?I think that thoughtseize is a better option,although it is quite pricey.Also,doesn't this deck just wreck aggro-control anyway?

diffy

12-02-2007, 07:52 AM

The problem I have with maindeck Thoughtseize is that although it's better against combo, it's much worse against aggro-control decks.

Because the thing is, against ******** and the like, you very often stabilize at ~5 life. The damage from Thoughtseize makes this even worse, and puts you further into the danger zone.

Well, from what I found while testing my take on Train Wreck, Thoughtseize is simply amazing in the earlygame and acts as a proactive removal. It tends to be a very sucky topdeck (just like any discard) but in the lategame, you don't have to cast it, do you? This is also the reason why my list only plays 3.
I'd play Thoughtseize all day long over Duress because Thoughtseize is just so much more versatile. The 2 life are nothing compared to you ripping a creature out of your opponents hand (which you'd then have to waste a removal on or loose even more life than you'd have lost to thoughtseize.

Besides, if there's so much combo in your meta that MD TSeize would make the cut, I'd really question if Train Wreck is such a great metagame choice.

As stated before, Thoughtseize is just the 'Jack of all Trades' and more versatile than additional removal this is why I'd always play it.

Also,doesn't this deck just wreck aggro-control anyway?

The thing is, if you cut down too much on the anti-aggro-control package, your matchup percentage will seriously drop. Thoughtseize is just very good against ***** and still awesome against the rest of the field (exception: control) so that I'd definetely play it. If you don't have the budget for it, play more cmc1 removal as you really don't want dead topdecks in for of discard in you mid-lategame.

fetchesbasiclands

12-02-2007, 08:35 AM

The thing is, if you cut down too much on the anti-aggro-control package, your matchup percentage will seriously drop. Thoughtseize is just very good against ***** and still awesome against the rest of the field (exception: control) so that I'd definetely play it. If you don't have the budget for it, play more cmc1 removal as you really don't want dead topdecks in for of discard in you mid-lategame.
I didn't mean you should not play thoughtseize.I meant that it is better than duress in this deck almost always.

Jak

12-03-2007, 01:07 PM

I really liked the idea of Der_imaginäre_Freund deck. So here is a list that I think looks pretty good.

4 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Windswept Heath
3 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Treetop Village
2 Barren Moor
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Shriekmaw
4 Eternal Witness

4 Pernicious Deed
2 Chainer's Edict
4 Damnation
4 Smother

4 Life from the Loam

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach

Pretty straight forward. Loam acts as a good draw engine and gets lands for the late game. With loam, my quality cards will go into the GY, so Witness is a must because it can be recurred via Genesis. I also won't run out of removal because Shriekmaw recursion is pretty good. I would like to run Goyf main, but would probably have to cut removal in order to fit him in and I really don't want to do that. Thoughts? Ideas?

Tao

12-03-2007, 01:28 PM

Pretty straight forward.

65 cards ftw?

Maybe you can cut the Diabolics, the Villages and 1 Witness.

Edit: Hooray for me for 500 posts!

diffy

12-03-2007, 01:29 PM

4 Mishra's Factory

Double black and these are not friends. Also, these tend to not do enough on
the board to warant including them. You have to additional synergy other than Manlands+Loam which is a pretty weak synergy to start of as chumping each turn isn't really getting you forwards as you're giving up your draws to reccur your lands via Loam. I would not want to play these.

3 Barren Moor
2 Tranquil Thicket

Seriously, play more of these... you nearly always want them and need at least 2 to make good use of your Life from the Loam.
I'd even play more than 8 draw-a-card-lands if I could. One of the changes I was testing lastly was -1 Bayou (I tend to fetch basics where ever possible) +1 Horizon Canopy. This clearly shows the need for more cycling lands.

Also, I'd play more utility lands to really abuse your Loam (Maze of Ith is uncounterable removal, Cabal Pit rocks too against anything that's not Tarmogoyf or Nimble Mongoose).

2 Treetop Village

I don't think you want 2 as they are quite a tempo sink and are only effective in the lategame (3 mana to swing). I only included one in my list to have an additional out to creatures (esp. Mongoose) while still having a 'wincon' in the same slot.

2 Genesis

Stronghold is clearly superior here as it doesn't take up slots and isn't dead when not milled.

2 Chainer's Edict
2 Diabolic Edict

You can easily go to 4 Chainer's Edict here as you aren't really casting that much stuff during your opponents turn anyways and its nice to at least have a theoretical chance at making card advantage.

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach

In my opinon, these just suck in any deck that can't take advantage of the tempo they create. I'd play Thoughtseize over them all day long as I'd just get rid of my opponents best threat than of 2 random cards which might be totaly irrelevant. Also at double black they are rather clunky and slowish at cmc2.
Also, Duress is pretty much worse than Thoughtseize in this shell, see above posts (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=183366&postcount=237) for reference.

4 Damnation

I'd cut one of these in favour of more cheap (read cmc1) spot removal as you've already got Deed and all your recursion engines for the lategame and these tend to suck if you're beaten down by early Goyfs (trading 1for1 most of the time and being extremly slow)

Thoughts? Ideas?

Your list seems to be lacking 'real' wincons. Truffle Shuffle and co have a nice matchup against other control decks because their winconditions can just beat face without fear of anything but Extirpate. Shriekmaw and Factory beatdown just looks so much inferior to Giga-beatz.
Also, your manacurve tends to be quite high which might give you additional problems against disruption/fast opposing starts. You'll notice this in testing as I started of something that looks quite similar to your list.

I'd also suggest that you test my list before making any changes to it. It went through quite some testing (although I've abandoned it by now) and should give you the general feel of the deck. The switch of some removal towards more Shriekmaw seems reasonable though but I'd not cut on too many of the other removals since Shriekmaw can't handle stuff like a Goblin Warchief or Dark Confidant.
From my list, -1 Ghastly Demise +1 Shriekmaw could work though.

I'm appreciate that you like my work though :wink:.

65 cards ftw?

Maybe cut the Diabolics, the Villages and 1 Witness.

Lol, I didn't even realize this...
I wouldn't cut the Witnesses though as they are just overall awesome chumping for a turn and giving you a removal back to hand. I'd rather cut those 2 Genesis, replace one with a Volrath's Stronghold.

Cait_Sith

12-03-2007, 01:30 PM

Maybe cut the Diabolics, the Villages and 1 Witness.

And make the deck's biggest problem that much bigger? The deck is incredibly slow as is and that fact that he pretty much lacks large creatures make it incredibly difficult for him to win in time. If his opponent takes game one after a 15-20 minute game he will have almost no chance to recover game two.

Jak

12-03-2007, 01:31 PM

Wow I am bad at counting. I'll probably cut some lands.

Edit- 2 Genesis became 1 Stroghold, Cut 2 Diabolic, and a Cycling land. I need to go test this.

Tao

12-03-2007, 01:52 PM

Also, I'd play more utility lands to really abuse your Loam (Maze of Ith is uncounterable removal, Cabal Pit rocks too against anything that's not Tarmogoyf or Nimble Mongoose).

Canopy and Pit are close to unplayble in this. The lifeloss when you tap it for mana is too hard for this deck to be acceptable as a mana source so will use it mostly as removal. But you don't have the problem of having not enough Removal or recursion, so it is not needed enough to justify the lifeloss.

Stronghold is clearly superior here as it doesn't take up slots and isn't dead when not milled.

I think Genesis is stronger. Genesis is a 4/4 creature. That is not dead at all. It also can chump a Goyf and then recur the Shriek or just go attacking in the control mirror.

Most important is that Genesis recursion is much better than Stronghold recursion because it does not steal your draw.

In my opinon, these just suck in any deck that can't take advantage of the tempo they create. I'd play Thoughtseize over them all day long as I'd just get rid of my opponents best threat than of 2 random cards which might be totaly irrelevant. Also at double black they are rather clunky and slowish at cmc2.
Also, Duress is pretty much worse than Thoughtseize in this shell, see above posts (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=183366&postcount=237) for reference.

I agree that the Discard setup should be 4 Duress, 4 Thoughtseize. However, your original list had far too less Discard.

Tacosnape

12-03-2007, 02:44 PM

Hymn is better than either Duress or Thoughtseize in this deck. Train Wreck needs its card advantage, and Hymn provides a break of parity that the other two do not.

Thoughtseize might be better than Duress in slot #2. It generally is, barring certain situations like midgame where an opponent holds a land. You can safely fling a Duress at this, but if you fling the Seize, your opponent can trick you out of 2 life.

Tao

12-03-2007, 03:56 PM

When playing with Wasteland and Factory BB is not easy to get.

Tacosnape

12-03-2007, 05:44 PM

When playing with Wasteland and Factory BB is not easy to get.

Meh. I think the deck ceases to be Train Wreck at that point and becomes another deck entirely. As far as I'm concerned, Train Wreck is a mostly black control deck with green splashed for random awesomeness and with Cabal Coffers to generate sick amounts of mana. Once you cut Coffers and Staff, you're running some other BG Control deck.

Nihil Credo

12-03-2007, 07:14 PM

Hymn is better than either Duress or Thoughtseize in this deck. Train Wreck needs its card advantage, and Hymn provides a break of parity that the other two do not.

Strongly disagree here. First of all, Hymn has a pretty high chance of hitting a removal spell or a land; in which case, the CA gained was pointless for you since, unlike Sui Black, you can't capitalize on their loss. Once in a blue moon it will gain you tempo by manascrewing your opponent and giving you a couple of free turns, but that's it.

Secondly, Train Wreck already gains CA by: hitting two creatures with Chainer's, drawing cards off Decree of Pain's two modes, making the opponent's removal dead, drawing cards with Staff of Domination, and the old classic, hitting multiple permanents with a single Deed, Punishment or Damnation (Thresh won't let you do that, but there are very few non-control decks that can play a single nonland permanent and still put you on a clock).

Thirdly, and most importantly the largest class of threats you want to remove, i.e. creatures, has over 9000 ways of being dealt with by your deck. But there are all other sort of problems such as LD spells, Needles, or opposing discard spells that you have zero or few ways to handle. With Hymn, you may hit those bastards or you may hit the Tarmogoyfs that would have died anyway to your Edicts and Damnations. With Duress, you'll take what you can't otherwise deal with - and, incidentally, force your opponent to use his tempo actually playing his creatures.

Satriani

12-04-2007, 12:28 AM

Okay, so I'm planning on bringing Train Wreck to Worlds in the attempt to qualify for the Win A Car tournament. The only reason that I'm playing Train Wreck, is that I believe that there will be a large amount of Thresh at the Qualifer, and probably some Landstill (Not that good of a matchup, but my assumption).

I'm not that good at Legacy, and I am a n00b to the format, but I know enough. So the question I had was:

What would you suggest for a sideboard (using Hoojo's list on page 12)?

I would think that Ichorid and Breakfast will show up, but not in the numbers that Thresh will.

Tacosnape

12-04-2007, 02:32 AM

Strongly disagree here. First of all, Hymn has a pretty high chance of hitting a removal spell or a land; in which case, the CA gained was pointless for you since, unlike Sui Black, you can't capitalize on their loss. Once in a blue moon it will gain you tempo by manascrewing your opponent and giving you a couple of free turns, but that's it.

Secondly, Train Wreck already gains CA by: hitting two creatures with Chainer's, drawing cards off Decree of Pain's two modes, making the opponent's removal dead, drawing cards with Staff of Domination, and the old classic, hitting multiple permanents with a single Deed, Punishment or Damnation (Thresh won't let you do that, but there are very few non-control decks that can play a single nonland permanent and still put you on a clock).

Thirdly, and most importantly the largest class of threats you want to remove, i.e. creatures, has over 9000 ways of being dealt with by your deck. But there are all other sort of problems such as LD spells, Needles, or opposing discard spells that you have zero or few ways to handle. With Hymn, you may hit those bastards or you may hit the Tarmogoyfs that would have died anyway to your Edicts and Damnations. With Duress, you'll take what you can't otherwise deal with - and, incidentally, force your opponent to use his tempo actually playing his creatures.

This is all a lot of hyperbole to disguise the simple fact that you're still getting two cards for one with a Hymn. Control decks never win in Legacy playing 1 for 1.

Point one - Hitting a removal spell is a good thing. Want to know how you kill with your big creatures? Hymn, Hymn, possibly Regrowth/Hymn, drop the threat, laugh at their empty hand.

Point two - Hitting a threat that would die to your Edicts/Damnations is good. Know why? Because that means you still have that Edict/Damnation for the next threat they topdeck.

Point three - Hymn is a higher impact card than Thoughtseize in this deck. Two random is better than one chosen, land or not. Plus Hymn can randomly nail two threats, or two removal spells, or whatever else too.

Point four - You can still run Duress or Thoughtseize (I pick Duress. I think Thoughtseize doesn't belong in this deck beyond a possible sideboard card.)