[Deck] UR Landstill

[kimberley]

Well…I don’t expect this revision will earn me any price, but I just have to use CaNG as a platform for promoting my pet deck.

1. Introduction
I started a thread about this deck in the open forum (link (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2630)) and learned that there is practically no knowledge about the deck and its premise.
You can test yourself on that: If you find yourself wanting to suggest a combination of both splashes (making the deck Uwr) at any point while reading this, you should read that thread and then come back here. Otherwise you will do fine.

To prevent at least the most prominent misconception about the deck: UR Landstill is not a control deck.
The deck uses a limited ability to control, conceded, but its idea is about role shifts.
A red splash brings the ability to actually play beatdown when wanted/demanded.
You may say:
”Beatdown? With Manlands? The slowest kill ever?”
Well, yes…but obviously you don’t have to go the long route of tapping a factory ten times in any match at all. Your opponents will fetch/force or may use life in other ways…and after all you still have 20 points of direct damage in your deck.
Which leads us to another important point. Pure control strategies (aka UW Landstill, Rabid Wombat, MBC, Rifter) often suffer from the fact that they run narrow control choices (aka mass removal) which are then found dead in various matchups.
Limiting this factor to 4 slots (and even beyond that as you will see) contributes a lot of versatility.

I want to address a second misconception:
My list’s current mana base looks like this:
4 Mishra’s Factory
3 Faerie Conclave
4 Volcanic Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland
You may ask if this isn’t…a bit risky. After all there are only 13 sources of U, only 7 sources of R, only 4 ways to get a basic Island and only 3 to get a basic Mountain.
That is true, but intended. The deck has horribly high mulligan rate (expect one mulligan per match).
If you test the deck, you will see how easy it is to be flooded during midgame (not to talk about endgame) even with that low number of lands.
This deck is perfectly fit for stalling, rapid “cycling” and top top deck/attrition wars as well. Don’t limit that ability by raising the land count to 24 or something.
I won tournaments even without that second island. I just keep it cause 3 basics is a key value imo and extremely important in the rare cases you are faced with B2B.
When you test the deck you will see that the trouble with the mana base is very limited to the first 2 or three land drops.
I have to admit that you have to accept risk quite frequently (I usually keep every hand with single blue source and either a Brainstorm or a second source). But…
1. I guarantee you that the deck’s top deck abilities make up for it.
2. I will come up with a solution later…just wait a sec and enjoy my silly writings.

Its time for a list, isn’t it?

2. Cardchoices and a first list

4 Nevinyrral’s Disk
4 Standstill
2 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Repeal
4 Fire / Ice
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Slice and Dice
2 Crucible of Worlds

4 Mishra’s Factory
3 Faerie Conclave
4 Volcanic Island
2 Polluted Delta / Flooded Strand
2 Bloodstained Mire / Wooded Foothills
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland

SB:
6 BEB / Hydrobalst
3 REB / Pyroblast
4 Phyrexian Furnace
2 Flashfires

This is the conversion list I used to introduce Repeal, Disrupting Shoal and Thirst for Knowledge to the deck. The final goal is another one, but I used this list to try if some obvious problems may be solved.
Well…most of you know that Manlands are for attacking and Standstill draws you cards…so I will limit my chatter on the less obvious choices:

Repeal:
Generally the card acts as a MD Artifact and Enchantment removal, that is not dead in the majority of matchups (where Artifacts and Enchantments are not important).
Actually I dismissed the deck the day after Philly. I was playing NQG myself and knew the deck becoming DTB would be horrible news for the simple reason of MD Needle entirely ruining you.
But I sweared to revive the deck once I see an acceptable way to deal with Pithing Needle. Repeal is that way. Most of the time you want to return a Needle just for one turn. The Deck plays beatdown against NQGw anyway, so attacking with Manlands once is just fine. I don’t have to tell you about the interaction of Needle Repeal and Disk…
Anyways…there are plenty of other very valid targets. Repealing Vial is just fine.
But I also Repealed Creatures of any size (including full grown Exalted Angels) with much success. Repealing a Werebear in a Topdeck War is an awesome play.

Disrupting Shoal
Of course I used Counterspell and Mana Leak before, but they both suck. Counterspell is not sufficiently supported by the base. Mana Leak just ruins your late game top deck abilities against any aggressive strategy.
I cannot say much about it. It took me sleepless nights to gather the guts to play that card, but in retrospect it seems obvious to me. Disruptiong Shoal is just infinetly superior to Counterspell/Mana Leak.

Thirst for Knowledge > Fact or Fiction
Well…I was pretty much annoyed by FoF once I started to realize I used it for only two purposes. 1. Tutor me a Burn Spell to kill my Op. 2. Tutor me a FoW/Shoal to prevent myself from dying (try this with Counterspell btw).
Usually I reavealed 5 cards of which only 2 were of any relevance at all, of witch again I actually had to pick 1 no matter what my op does with those 5 cards. So for the most part FoF is a very annoying and ineffective test on your Op’s skill.
In addition FoF was just horrible against combo for the reasons of a) being expensive b) doing nothing about the fact that I hold 2 entirely useless artefacts in my hand.
So…the pros of TfK are obvious, but what about the cons?
As soon as I started to test the card I had to realize how futile my doubts have been. Usually you have plenty of cards not needed in the current situation – lands, lands with CoW in play, Countermagic, when the trash is already on the board, almost any artifact in almost any combo matchup, lands…did I mentions lands?
Thirst for Knowledge offers you an insane amount of Card Quality at an acceptable speed, greatly improves any combo Matchup and has the same (if not a bigger) synergy with CoW as FoF had.

BEB > Pyroclasm
I played pyroclasm myself… and i hate me for doing so. Whoever wants to board the card against Vial Goblins has no idea about how the deck works, which does not exclude actually playing the deck (look at me).
Pyroclasm is no answer to Ringleader, no answer to Warchief, no answer to Lackey, no answer to fat.
It is only an answer to either-I-am-an-insane-scrub-or-the-deck-hates-me-but-I-did-not-draw-any-of-my-sixteen-other-removal-cards-yet.
Usually Pyrolasm kills one Goblins (maybe 2 including a Matron).
And it does that for R1 or RR1 or RRR1…and as a Sorcery…
…its horribly bad against Goblins alone – trust me on that one – not to mention Burn which is one of the Decks most horrible matchups.

Phyrexian Furnace > Tormod’s Crypt
The title may be irritating. I don’t want to doubt Crypt’s advantages, but want to clear a common misconception. Nevi Disk is an expensive tool and its primary use is against random decks which want to beat or lock you within a few turns (that includes the whole pallete white beatdown decks btw). Against a broad variety of decks I board out disk completely. This includes pretty much every deck with a yard that matters (including NQG and Rift). When you play the deck you will see, that you draw through it at a suprising speed. So 4 Phyrexian Furnaces gather quickly and will not be removed by you (unless you are in trouble and want that card).

Flashfires
A short word: 2 are more than enough. It is not totally uncommon that my post board games against Rift/Wombat end with them being dead with a library of 30 cards and me being alive with a library of 20 cards. “Cycling” faster than I-cycle.dec says: 2 are enough.


3. Matchups & Boarding advice

NQGw / 4c Threshold – your role: aggro-control
I tend to accept a beatdown role as much as possible. This is determined by them having more and harder permission (usually 10 including some Counterspells). Ain for their W with your wastes – removed Manlands are a bad thing. If you are still healthy when CoW shows up, you win with recurring threats and burn to the dome. Don’t waste your permission on their threats or on resolving a disk if it is not absolutely necessary. Most of the time Disk will help you as an expensive Hymn to Tourach.
Post board games are dominated by saving Permission even more. Those games are about Geddon and CoW more than anything else.
Boarding advice: -4 Disk, +4 Phyrexian Furnace (you may swap some red blasts for singles of Repeal, Shoal and Standstill if you like to – depends on Op’s build too).
MatchWin%: ~55%

NQGr – not sufficiently tested yet.
I can’t tell you anything about what to do yet, but am pretty much frightened about that matchup.
MatchWin%: ~40% (or even lower)

VialGoblins your role: control
This usually is a long war of attrition. Simply keep their board empty and wait for them to get flooded, which will last much longer then for other beatdown decks cause VialGoblins can make respectable use of a large amount of Lands in play.
Bring in a CoW at least end game to get rid of their Mana- (and beatdown-) denial.
I cannot exactly tell you when to force a Vial and when not. I force a first (or second) turn Vial in about 40% of all cases and count it as a disadvantage in the others.
A second Vial (especially post stabilization) usually should not be countered – just answer the threats it produces. Obviously the amount of remaining Ringleaders has to be taken into account during these decisions.
In the end VialGoblins will find themselves with a horrible pile to topdeck with (>50% lands, Fanatics, Vials etc.) while you will have the best chances on topdecking (~40% answers, ~30% draw/search). Ringleaders are their only chance once you did at least partly stabilize.
Boarding advice: +6 BEB/Hydroblast, -4 Shoal, -2 Disk (playing) / -2 Standstill (drawing)
MatchWin%: ~60%

Rift / Wombat your role: beatdown
Wombat is pretty much a bye. Even if they stabilize (which they rarely do) you have all the time in the world to find the final burn spells. Rift is much more dangerous for two reasons: 1. They have a much faster kill. 2. they have Slice and Dice, which is the most annoying card ever in this matchup, cause it keeps you from savely casting a Standstill over a Conclave. Usually Flashfires are easily found and bring the win.
Boarding Advice: -6 Repeal/Disk/Standstill (depending on taste – I usually keep all Standstills), +4 Phyrexian Furnace, +2 Flashfires
MatchWin% - Wombat: ~80%, Rift: ~65% (or higher)
It should be clear that you have to play fast to not run into an insane amount of 1-1’s…

Deadguy Ale your role: aggro-control
This is simple: Get Lands on the board and keep them. Try to get rid of your hand with card parity – you will have the better topdecks. Of course this is random as games vs. Deadguy Ale/Suicide always are. Sometimes they will screw you and beat you to death with a single scroll. But usually reaching a Disk or a CoW wins you the game.
Boarding advice: keep the MD as it is.
Note: Most of their SB choices are pretty pointless anyway (I tested against 3 Withered Wretched MD, which would be the only good one that is common). If they have Chains for some reason, that is bad news though.
MatchWin%: ~60%

Solidarity your role: beatdown
Even with that low land count and TfK this is obviously a bad matchup. With some luck (not necessarily much) you may win that 2-0 on occasion, but usually game 1 goes to them without much argument. Post board games are better but still not much fun.
Boarding advice: -4 Disk, -2 CoW, -1 SnD, +4 Phyrexian Furnace, +3 REB/Pyroblast
MatchWin%: ~30%

Grahams your role: control (pre board), beatdown (post board)
Usually they cannot win game 1. They may get Keeper activated, but Salvager has not the best chances at living, mana denial is a problem for them too etc.
Game 2 they will bring Colossus instead of the combo, which is a huge improvement.
I advice you to board Furnace anyway – if it is just for Therapy. But usually you have two chances on beating and burning them while you occasionally tap that Colossus.
Boarding advice: -4 Disk, +4 Phyrexian Furnace
MatchWin%: I am not very sure about this (limited data): ~50%

Burn your role: well…there is only one direction….
Pre board this is a frightening matchup. But 6 Blasts are a huge improvement. Try to hardcast Shoal and FoW End Game, when possible.
Boarding advice: -4 Disk, -4 Repeal, -2 SnD, +6 BEB/Hydroblast, +4 Phyrexian Furnace (you may keep SnD over Furnace - a question of taste)
MatchWin%: ~55%

SA your role: beatdown
If SotF hits the table, you will loose within a few turns. So you have to counter SotF, Witness, Choke (or other hate post board). It is obvious that their creatures are problematic even without survival. Therefor it is important to play as aggressive as you can. Any Wasteland should by used instantly, any mana accelerant should be burned immediately. But you should not miss the point when they have partly stabilized and have 4 mana sources on the table. Burning any more accelerants obviously become futile at that point.
Boarding advice: +4 Phyrexian Furnace, +? Blue blasts, -? XY – this is dependent on their build and attitude towards the matchup so much, that I cannot give you any proper advice.
MatchWin%: ~40% (note that you will smash any other SotF based deck easily, no matter if it is RecSur, Weldsur, ATS or FEB)

WW / BDW / AS
These matchups are easy. Pro:Red usually matters much less than people expect.
Just counter any removal on your Disk or an occasional Geddon. There are situations, when I weant to counter a Priest but they are rare. BDW is of course more dangerous due to their direct damage potential.
Boarding advice: dependent on built
MatchWin%: 65% (less against BDW)


4. Bloodshed…so far…
I managed to play only three events with lists close to the above yet:
Aurich 02/25/06 - 2.0.1.1 (1st of 11)
Hamburg 03/03/06 - 2.0.2.0 (6th of ~20)
Iserlohn 03/05/ 06 - 4.2.1.0 (9th of 37)

This adds to a total of…
-8 wins:
UR Landstill mirror: 1-0 (one of my older lists netdecked and modified)
Rift: 2-0 (standard built)
Goblins: 2-1 (that list included Bolts, which was bad for me)
Random Wizards: 1-0 (I did not like the guy at all, so I stalled the 1st game and killed him after 45 minutes)
Random WW: 2-1 (his threats were so high in CC that I lost game one cause I tried to play control, then killed him twice in 10 minutes swiftly (he went 0.6.0.1 btw))
MonoB Sui: 2-0 (solid player, obviously subpar deck)
Scepter Chant: 2-0 (I raped him as to be expected)
NQGw: 2-0 (standard built)
-4 draws:
NQGw: i.d. with a team mate (standard built), when we played for fun, I won 2-1 (lost to an untimely Geddon game 2)
T2 Zoo: 1-1 (Burning-Tree Shaman was bad news game 1)
WUBS: 1-1 (another team mate – we played that match despite the matchup is horrible for me – I screwed him game 1)
Solitaire: i.d. with Windux who gave me an i.d. during GPTs (when we played for fun I won 2-0)
-2 losses:
Solidarity: 0-2 (This was Lukas, one of Germany’s two best Solidarity players imho, both my hands were subpar, game 2 he decked me in my upkeep, being at 3 life, in response to Lightning Bolt)*
NQGr-DryadSligh Hybrid /w Ascetics: 0-2 (Game 1 a Rushing River (!?) for a tapped Disk and a CoW brings the tempo for the win, Game two I have CoW and 2 Factories against a Troll Ascetic, both of us below 10 life, I topdecked bad (and played like a retard in addition)).

*Peek was just awesome btw.

5. The final Goal…
I mentioned the above list is just a conversion list, did I? I already mentioned that the deck’s biggest con is its fragile mana base. Actually the inclusion of TfK opens up the possibility to do a thing I intended for a long time: the inclusion of Chromatic Sphere without making the deck suck. Currently in testing is the following list:

3 Nevinyrral`s Disk
4 Force of Will
3 Disrupting Shoal
3 Repeal
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
3 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Fire/ Ice
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Slice and Dice
2 Crucible of Worlds

3 Chromatic Sphere
4 Mishra’s Factory
3 Faerie Conclave
4 Volcanic Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Island
1 Mountain
3 Wasteland

SB:
6 BEB / Hydroblast
3 REB / Pyroblast
4 Phyrexian Furnace
2 Flashfires

Most of the testing results indicate an awesome improvement, but tournament data is yet missing. I am yet unable to decide, which of the two lists I want to submit.
I will try to play Bremen 03/16/06 and Hamburg 03/17/06 and then make a decision.

Btw: Tao just told me that he has won Hamburg 03/10/06 with the deck 3.0.1.0 (winning against: 1x random, 1x NQGr, 1x SA; playing a draw against 1x RecSur).
I want to mention this to prove, that the deck is very well capable of winning the negative matchups, if piloted correctly.


Of course i tried to cut this as short as possible. Feel free to ask me for things i did not mention. :)

[kimberley]

reserve post

You never know when you will need one...

[BlindMage]

It's nice to see a serious exploration of UR Landstill, especially since there is no major Blue-based control in the metagame. While I have never played UR Landstill, I have a fair amount of experiance playing against it, since the best player at my local tourny played it for a long time. Based on his list, I have a few suggestions.

Isochrone Scepter: A little worse, since you can't put a counter on it, but it's main function would be to hold a burn spell, especially Fire/Ice. This improves your ability to race your opponent, and Ice can let you tap that pesky Silver Knight, or Soltari Priest all day long, and draw cards in the process.

Grim Lavamancer: Also great for a damage race. Has synergy with TfK. Vulnerable to removal, but it he jst takes instant-speed removal that otherwise would have hit a land, that's not so bad. Anyway, you can use counters to protect him, and then use those counters to fuel him. Seems solid for ever matchup with the glaring exception of Rifter.

Also, have you considered maindecking those Phyrexian Furnaces? You recommend bringing them in in 6 out of the 8 matchups you analyzed. Since they cantrip, they're never dead. Just a thought.

[kimberley]

Isochrone Scepter: A little worse, since you can't put a counter on it, but it's main function would be to hold a burn spell, especially Fire/Ice. This improves your ability to race your opponent, and Ice can let you tap that pesky Silver Knight, or Soltari Priest all day long, and draw cards in the process.

Well...i hate that card.
So... I cannot make an objective statement about it.
Please note that against Combo racing with Scepter is often pointless. Damage via Factory has an equivalent mana/damage ratio.
Repeated Icing is interesting though.


Grim Lavamancer: Also great for a damage race. Has synergy with TfK. Vulnerable to removal, but it he jst takes instant-speed removal that otherwise would have hit a land, that's not so bad. Anyway, you can use counters to protect him, and then use those counters to fuel him. Seems solid for ever matchup with the glaring exception of Rifter.

Well...i denied the inclusion of Al in my discussions in german forums several times (mostly for simply being him a permanent...and an easily removable in addition). I did not take into account the inclusion of TfK on Al yet. I have to think about this (and maybe retest). :)


Also, have you considered maindecking those Phyrexian Furnaces? You recommend bringing them in in 6 out of the 8 matchups you analyzed. Since they cantrip, they're never dead. Just a thought.

Very well observed.
In fact i played 2 of the Furnaces MD before the inclusion of Shaol and Repeal (in the SnD slot) for about half a year.
The problem about this, is that Furnace is useless only in very few matchups. But those matchups are exactly those where speed matters a lot (Vial Goblins, Deadguy Ale for example) und cycling them especially hurts.
None the less your point is well observed and to some extend very valid. :)

[BlindMage]

Well...i denied the inclusion of Al in my discussions in german forums several times (mostly for simply being him a permanent...and an easily removable in addition).

This is true, but manlands are vulnerable to most of the same removal. For the sake of argument, I'll a little more in-depth on Grim Lavamancer vs. Removal

Goblins: Incinerator, sometimes bolt, sometimes StP. With the exeption of incinerator, these can be countered (and then you can use the counters to fuel the wizard), and anyway, that's an incinerator that didn't off a conclave.

NQGw: StP only. Again, you can counter it. They can counter your counter, but then the won't have a counter for something more relevant. Again, you can then use the counters you used to protect the wizard to fuel him.

NQGr: Bolt, and either Fire/Ice or Magma Jet. This matchup is not so nice for Al, if I was using him, I'd prolly board him out here. However, if you are racing them, he forces them to use some of their limited burn to get rid of him.

Solidarity: None. even if you don't have the mana for him to burn them, he can always go sideways to speed you up a little. if you have the mana of him+manlands, it seems like that would be a boon.

Rifter: Pyroclasm, Lightning Rift, Slice and Dice, StP, WoG, Humility. Ouch, definitely board the wizard out here. Game one, you can play tricks but repealing you own wizard in response to a sweeper, since there's not much else you can do with repeal in that match, and that kind of nonsense is fun.

Deadguy Ale: Vindicate, Engineered Plague (sometimes), StP (sometimes), Cursed Scroll (sometimes). As before, you can counter their removal, which isn't all that heavy. Grim Lavamancer also kills all of their threats.


Anyway, I don't want people to get the wrong idea and think that I think Grim Lavamancer should absolutely definitely be played in this deck, but from some experiance playing against it, it can be really good here. It's also important to note that the above post would be much shorter if I wasn't home sick with too much time on my hands.

[kimberley]

Your examples are analysed well. And i would definately call Al a good card against Solidarity and NQGw (against which i would usually not want to counter the StoP, but be happy with a Factory as a Blocker (and counter a StoP then)).

I want to make additions / corections to two of the Matchups:
-Vial Goblins: You did not mention Fanatics. Anyways, Al will rarely live and be able to repeatedly use his ability.
-Deadguy Ale: Here he would be a romantic choice in the first place. Whenever he lives (i doubt much removal will be targetted at him - Vindicate has a lot of other targets, Scroll becomes active later) and you have R for multiple turns, he will win you the game single-handedly.
But...whenever you have R for multiple turns you should usually be on a pretty plain road to the win anyway.
However... if the inclusion of chromatic Sphere is successful and i ever need a SB card for Deadguy Ale, i wilol have to consider him for that slot.

The number of matchups (which you corectly mentioned) where he is bad, and how extremely bad he is there, keeps me from playing him at the moment.

Not to mention the aesthetic* catastrophe of Al + Disk in the same decklist.
*Technically this is not a big problem, but... i believe...to win you have to love your deck and the strategy that it contains to some extend. I cannot love a thing that ugly...

A note about Repeal:
It is rarely dead, especially against Rifter. Most of the things you want to counter aggressively with Shoal are CC1. Against Rifter you have to attack. Shoaling a StoP with Repeal is necessary often.

[BlindMage]

I'm sure you are right. Clearly the Lavamancer is very vulnerable. And you obviously know more about playing the deck than I (who have only played against it). I was just having fun making the argument.


In that case, enough Lavamancer argument. Here's a more relevant question: You said you have a rather favorable Rifter matchup, and a very favorable Wombat matchup. This is somewhat astonishing, since Wombat's origonal success was based in large part on absolutely murdering Landstill. To what do you attribute this? I always assumed that UR Landstill would do better against Wombat than UW, but turning a matchup that is "ridiculously easy" for Wombat into one that is "basically a bye" for Landstill - a complete reversal - is quite a feat. Can you shed some light on this?

Also, do you ever find youself suffering from the card disadvantage of FoW and Shoal in the same deck?

[kimberley]

In that case, enough Lavamancer argument. Here's a more relevant question: You said you have a rather favorable Rifter matchup, and a very favorable Wombat matchup. This is somewhat astonishing, since Wombat's origonal success was based in large part on absolutely murdering Landstill. To what do you attribute this? I always assumed that UR Landstill would do better against Wombat than UW, but turning a matchup that is "ridiculously easy" for Wombat into one that is "basically a bye" for Landstill - a complete reversal - is quite a feat. Can you shed some light on this?

Of course i can.
I was surprised by this too.
You can see a report about my first testing seession against Wombat here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2630&page=2). Of course i retested without Stifle and the other choices and had several sessions against Rifter with the new list, too.
The reason for the drastic change (compared to UW Landstill) is simple: You can fit the beatdown role you are forced into much better.
1. You can burn the dome, which is an immense improvement because UW's removal usually becomes important when Wombat already starts to kill (and the game is lost anyway).
2. You are much more able to risk actually playing a Standstill, cause they cannot simply ignore being beaten by a Factory for 10 live during ...let's say... turn 3 to 8, which they usually can when facing UW Landstill. Which leads to...
3. You are actually capable to kill them when they have already stabilized and chances to get anything past the red line become rare. In the most extreme cases: You are able to kill them at instant speed, breaking your own Standstill, while the board is lost (cause they cycled into too many DoJ's too quickly or anything).
4. You have Flashfires.


Also, do you ever find youself suffering from the card disadvantage of FoW and Shoal in the same deck?

Basically...no.
As i pointed out, i suffered a lot of not being able to use a Couterspell/Mana Leak at all, when i wanted to. Consider the immense synergy of Shoal and Standstill alone. In that way Shoal often produces advantage instead of disadvantage. VialGoblins AetherVial may be an example for Shoal's unlimited superiority. There are many others...

[Lukas Preuss]

Solidarity: 0-2 (This was Lukas, one of Germany’s two best Solidarity players imho, both my hands were subpar, game 2 he decked me in my upkeep, being at 3 life, in response to Lightning Bolt)*
[...]
*Peek was just awesome btw.


Wow, thanks, that was quite a compliment. And seriously, Peek WAS awesome. :)

I just have to say that this deck really is very solid (I watched him play it at the tournament in Iserlohn, and all I have to say is, that I was very impressed. This is way faster than the Landstill lists I used to test against). But before they pick it up, people have to realize that this is not a pure control deck like UW Landstill used to be. This deck plays quite differently, and is way more agressive than other Landstill lists.

[Eldariel]

Well, I don't have much to say, except I absolutely love the prospect of 7 hard free counters. At least the deck murders Belcher if nothing else :P Could you elaborate on the Slice and Dice-slot though? It seems like it'd only really be any good against Goblins and Pikula, and mostly an expensive cycler in other matches. Is it really necessary in the main? Aren't your FYIs and Bolts along with Repeals and 7 free counters enough against the early rush? Then again, seeing that it's a perfect counter to DoJ and enables playing Standstill with guys in play, I guess it's vindicateable, but could you extrapolate a bit, please?

[kimberley]

Well, I don't have much to say, except I absolutely love the prospect of 7 hard free counters. At least the deck murders Belcher if nothing else :P Could you elaborate on the Slice and Dice-slot though? It seems like it'd only really be any good against Goblins and Pikula, and mostly an expensive cycler in other matches. Is it really necessary in the main? Aren't your FYIs and Bolts along with Repeals and 7 free counters enough against the early rush? Then again, seeing that it's a perfect counter to DoJ and enables playing Standstill with guys in play, I guess it's vindicateable, but could you extrapolate a bit, please?

No...i can't...at least not much - sorry. :)
For the most part, i play SnD because it is just a good card and feels very good during testing and tournaments. It adds a lot of versatility to the deck.
Just think about NQG - i hardcast SnD there frequently.
You already mentioned how extremely important it is for the Rifter matchup to have at least the potential to draw SnD.
Against classical beatdown decks (you already mentioned VG and Ale) it can often be used as pure CA.
So...apart from that DoJ argument i play SnD pretty much for just being a good card that fits the deck.

In the old thread some alternative sweepers were discussed: Pyroclasm, Starstorm etc. I hate them all for being clumsy, slow, hight costed, sorcery speed, not being CA against a single Fanatic, Lion, BoP, Confidant.

Note that most opponents do not expect this card as a MD choice, which often leads to misplays that result in severe damage dealt by SnD. I saw people loosing 2 Mongoose to my cycling, which is just ridicoulous.
But there you have another importent use: This card alone nearly entirely prohibits your NQG opponents from doing anything relevant before they reach threshold (Mages are irelevant - mostly a Furneral Charm with CC 2).

[BlindMage]

I think Isochrone Scepter deserves some very serious consideration. Even those of us who have a personal grudge against this card (I hate it too), must recognize the advantages. I'm not advocating it as a 4-of, but as a 2-of, it could really shine. Maindeck, you have Brainstorm, Fire/Ice, and Lightning Bolt for it, and after board you also have REB/BEB. Fire/Ice on a stick is amazing. It lets you keep those Pro:Red or fat butt guys off you back until you can find an answer, and you get to draw extra cards in the process. You can even use it to tap a land in their upkeep, port-style, and draw cards. That's just what you can do with Ice. The scepter's potential in this deck as either a board control card, draw engine, or both is to overwhelming, in my opinion, to justify not running it.

[Rambo]

I have been testing more or less the same list of u/r landstil. After a lot of testing i have cut the fairie conlcave's for islands, and added vedalken shackles. This makes you less vulnerabe to wasteland and lessens the amount of creatures your opponent has. It also owns salvagers combo when going off :wink:

[Skullclamping]

Tao just told me that he has won Hamburg 03/10/06 with the deck 3.0.1.0

what version is that?

and another thing, is it so important to use 3 Spheres? I have tested the deck in some matchups, and I think cutting one for another repeal can be greate

[kimberley]

I have been testing more or less the same list of u/r landstil. After a lot of testing i have cut the fairie conlcave's for islands, and added vedalken shackles. This makes you less vulnerabe to wasteland and lessens the amount of creatures your opponent has. It also owns salvagers combo when going off :wink:

I have not tested this, but consider it possible. I would not like that change though. 15 cards for the win (=damaging your op) is a key value for the deck. I don't want to cut those for anything that is not a cantrip or a win condition itself.
Of course Conclave is often unsatisfiing when played, but it has a unique ability in producing U and being a win condition.


what version is that?

and another thing, is it so important to use 3 Spheres? I have tested the deck in some matchups, and I think cutting one for another repeal can be greate

Afaik he played the version presented in paragraph 2.
The final version (§5) is limited to testing yet, but will see play soon.

[Tao]

I played the Basic Version without Chromatic Spheres. I played it nearly exactly, changes were: - 1 Shoal, -1 Repeal, +2 Phyrexian Furnace.

The deck is really great, it is amazing how aggressive it is. When I played vs. Survival they had Board Control, more cards in hand, etc. Their only problem was that that they were dead. Like 0 life. They were surprised about it. All it took was some early Damage, then EoT Disk, all out with lands 2 times. The rest was Burn to the Head.

The games vs. Red Gro were quite easy, not too much to worry. In the Lategame you have great advantages, because your real Card Draw overrwhelmes their Card Quality. S'n'D hardcast, Shoal and Nevi Disk really shine there. So you have to worry about the first turns, where you have to prevent as much damage from their Creatures as possible. They cannot put down more than 1 unthreshed Mungo because of S'n'D and unthreshed Bears will be Burned. When they reached threshold you are close to having enough Mana for Disk. Buying Turns with Repeal or Ice on Bears is great, too.

[Skullclamping]

Afaik he played the version presented in paragraph 2.
The final version (§5) is limited to testing yet, but will see play soon.


I played the Basic Version without Chromatic Spheres. I played it nearly exactly, changes were: - 1 Shoal, -1 Repeal, +2 Phyrexian Furnace.

so, what version did you play? The one with spheres and shoals (#5) or the one with counterspells (#2)?

[Tao]

Ah, I played another Version, I thought the version 2 had already Shoals instead of Counterspells. I played Version "2. Cardchoices and a first list" with following changes:

- Counterspells replaced by Shoal
- 1 Shoal and 1 Repeal replaced by 2 Phyrexian Furnaces
- No Spheres

[Skullclamping]

I tested some matches against Thresh
it seems we should use some more REB/Pyroblast SB
it can be added with cutting 2 Furnaces and doing like Tao did, 'cause the REB are also a good option against lots of other matches
are you agree with me?

EDIT

a pair of misdirections in the SB can also be a good idea vs. Deadguy

[Rambo]

I really think vedalken shackles needs a slot. I think it should be put in the place of chromatic sphere. I really hate that card in this deck, as brainstorm and lightning bolt are always better first turn plays.

[kimberley]

I really think vedalken shackles needs a slot. I think it should be put in the place of chromatic sphere. I really hate that card in this deck, as brainstorm and lightning bolt are always better first turn plays.

Sorry...but...you missed pretty much every single point about Chromatic Sphere:

1. Bolt/Brainstorm are better 1st Turn playes if you have the needed sources at hand.
2. There is an immense synergy between Chromatic Sphere and Standstill.

...

3. This deck has the land count of a Fish.dec. Keeping this in mind you cannot simply replace a provider of coloured mana with a late game control solution at the top of the decks curve.

We may discuss Shackles as a SB option, conceded. But things are not as simple as your post suggests.


@Skullclamping
Tao's changes to the "sphereless" version are valid. You may go that way.
I still have to prove* the inclusion of Chromatic Sphere is superior.

*btw: I played 3.1.0.0 in Bremen 02/16/06 with the second list (including Spheres). I lost to a Burn deck, by just playing like a retard (which i do in a kind of regular shift).
I will give the Spheres another try at Hamburg 03/24/06...

[Rambo]

Ok, first all i want to say that repeal is good, but not great. I am not saying take it out, but i think remand does the same thing and better. It can effect instants and sorceries, while repeal can only affect permanents. What are you thoughts?

[Skullclamping]

I don't think remand is better than Reppeal
first of all, reppeal gives us a 1CC blue card for Shoal
Repeal can also return a thing in play to hand, what in most cases is better than not letting to play, and then see why we aren't playing with counterspell, because of the free mana we need to play it, what also happens with remand
I also think that Repeal can not be the best option here, but we need something to return permanents

the best cards here are: (I'm not following any order)
1. Repeal
2. Rushing River
3. Echoing Truth
4. Chain of Vapor

what of those do you think is the best?

[Tao]

The main reason for Repeal being in the deck is to fight Pithing Needle and Aether Vial. Thus you see that remanding a Vial or Needle is not the best idea while bouncing it EoT is pretty solid (bouncing Vial is a huge tempo swing and bouncing a Needle that stops your Disk is card advantage).

The advantage Repeal has to cards like Echoing Truth, Chain of Vapor and Rushing River is that you draw a card. This is huge. This way you can easily play 4 of them and use bounce as a general strategy without having to fear that you will lose games because of card disadvantage. Furthermore you can randomly bounce anything you see on the Board just to draw a card and find a solution.

[Alfred]

Sorry...but...you missed pretty much every single point about Chromatic Sphere:

1. Bolt/Brainstorm are better 1st Turn playes if you have the needed sources at hand.
2. There is an immense synergy between Chromatic Sphere and Standstill.

...

3. This deck has the land count of a Fish.dec. Keeping this in mind you cannot simply replace a provider of coloured mana with a late game control solution at the top of the decks curve.

We may discuss Shackles as a SB option, conceded. But things are not as simple as your post suggests.


@Skullclamping
Tao's changes to the "sphereless" version are valid. You may go that way.
I still have to prove* the inclusion of Chromatic Sphere is superior.

*btw: I played 3.1.0.0 in Bremen 02/16/06 with the second list (including Spheres). I lost to a Burn deck, by just playing like a retard (which i do in a kind of regular shift).
I will give the Spheres another try at Hamburg 03/24/06...

I'm sorry if I'm dumb, but what is the emmense synergy between Chromatic Sphere and Standstill? I don't see how the any-color-mana thing would matter when you aren't casting spells, and the draw effect is nice, but doesn't accomplish all that much. I'm not saying that Chromatic Sphere is a bad choice, but I think that these spots could be better used for another land and perhaps 2 more Slice and Dices.

[Skullclamping]

I will give the Spheres another try at Hamburg 03/24/06...

how did you do in that tournament?

I finally cut the spheres for 2 furnaces maindeck, 'cause in my area there're lots of NQG

[kimberley]

how did you do in that tournament?

I finally cut the spheres for 2 furnaces maindeck, 'cause in my area there're lots of NQG

I did not attend it - i was just lazy. :)

As i said: MD Furnaces are a very viable choice, which i used for about a dozen tournaments playing more old-fashioned versions of Ur Landstill (during spring and summer 05).

But as you will have expierienced, color stability is an issue and in fact the decks biggest weakness. It is so annoying, i just have to search a solution.

[Shriekmaw]

I think U/R Landstill should be back into the discussion when we are talking about the current Legacy Metagame. This deck proves that it is still very good in a format where Burn has died out. At a side event at GP Barcelona, U/R Landstill finished 3rd. I'm not sure how big this side event was, but I'm guessing it was a pretty good size.

This is the decklist that Mario Ofivo used:

2 Crucible Of Worlds
3 Nevinyrral's Disk
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
3 Electrolyze
1 Fact Or Fiction
4 Fire / Ice
4 Force Of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
2 Island
1 Mountain
2 Faerie Conclave
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
3 Phyrexian Furnace
3 Pithing Needle
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroclasm

I only thing I didn't really agree with was the 4 main deck stifles. I do believe this a very solid deck to play in Legacy.

What does everyone else think?

[Eldariel]

I figure the Stifles were included as a means of combatting Goblins and their Wasteland-based disruption. It's a very interesting option actually, I'd figure it's actually worth considering. It also fights things such as EoT Decree for lots, fetchland activations (go with Wasteland/Crucible nicely), Solidarity's Brain Freezes and nonsense like that.

[emidln]

I figure the Stifles were included as a means of combatting Goblins and their Wasteland-based disruption. It's a very interesting option actually, I'd figure it's actually worth considering. It also fights things such as EoT Decree for lots, fetchland activations (go with Wasteland/Crucible nicely), Solidarity's Brain Freezes and nonsense like that.

It's also an answer to an early Lackey trigger or Vial activation. I hear they're also pretty good against Threshold and their infy fetchlands.

[Mirrislegend]

The list is 59 cards. It's even 59 cards on the Wizards site. One of the other decks from that GP is 56 cards. Does anyone know where to find out what the last cards are? Because I dont think we can really start to pull this deck apart until we have that last card: it could be the most controversial choice, or it could be the savage tech that made this deck viable; who knows.

Also, I'm just beginning to really get drawn to this deck. I haven't tested much, but it got me thinking: if you typically win with a largely cleared board, why not play Genju of the Spires?

[kimberley]

I consider Stifle an outdated choice. It was an interesting one during spring 05 especially against ATS and WeldSur, but it is far to narrow, reactive and situational for being really useful in the current metagame.
The plays possible with Stifle sound impressive in theory. In practice they are impressive whenever they occur, which is none the less rare and does not outweight adding a slot of 4 cards to the deck, which are found totally dead very often.

That's the negative argument about Stifle. Positive arguments about the replacing choice (Repeal) can be found in this thread in abundance.
I have to concede that Repeal is replaceable, but their are some choices, which are strictly superior to Stifle due to their pro-active character, which include MD Furnace, Electrolyze (see below), additional countermagic and/or or a third CoW in conjunction with additional mana fixers.


Also, I'm just beginning to really get drawn to this deck. I haven't tested much, but it got me thinking: if you typically win with a largely cleared board, why not play Genju of the Spires?

You Sir, are actually posting in direct contradiction to the forum rules.
If you had any noticible expierience with UR Landstill (or if you at least would have read this thread), you would know that your idea about the decks gameplan is simply untrue.
1. The decks base is too fragile to support GotS at all (with or without Sphere or any other fixer).
2. You do not kill with an empty board. You kill with tempo. That includes some damage with Lands while your opponents are tapped out or something, but is primarily based on the decks high amount of direct damage potential and draw capacity.
3. If it would be corect, to add further R spells or effects to the deck (which isn't the case), their would be numerous options that are strictly superior in efficiency, flexibility and overall synergy with other choices and the decks general gameplan. That list would be starting with Browbeat and Encampment...and would continue a long way before it would reach GotF....not to mention GotS...

@nicrit2000/ re: that list.
Well....that list is solid, but imo not optimal. In fact it is old-fashioned and sticks with the ideas about the archetype common during spring and summer 05.
I said enough about Stifle, but their are other points to criticise too.
1. I pointed out several times, that playing the red variant for Pyroclasm is naive and absolutely subpar for two reasons, being the lack of reliably drawing into red sources as well as Pyroclasm being a sorcery which are both especially true in conjunction when facing VialGoblins.
2. That lists setup against Solidarity is even worse than the one of the lists i presented here.

None the less, the list is absolutely playable, but - as i pointed out - very conservative. Electrolyze is an absolutely viable inclusion, which may replace Incinerate in every statement i made mentioning that card. Actually their are enough solid arguments that Electrolyze is superior to Incinerate.

[Vervamon]

Hi,

Originally a T1 player, I am quite the control guy, and have been interested in Landstill for a long time, although I never really put the deck together. I decided to build the deck a while ago after my recent experiments with STAX in legacy led to poor results. The deck turned out to be an horrible choice in my VERY random metagame.

Anyway I put together the version from the Barcelona side event, and tested the deck yesterday against random decks (T1, Legacy, T2).

A few thoughts on the deck.

The deck is VERY mana intensive, mainly because a single attack with a Conclave needs 3 untapped (Conclave + activation cost) lands. An attack with both a Factory and a Conclave results in 5 lands being tapped. The bottom line is this deck does not want to miss a land drop. And the deck does not work too well with only a few lands on the board.

Pyroclasm, which I had included in the list instead of Electrolyze, does not appear to be a house. I have already lowered their slots to 2, and might cut them sooner or later. I need a little bit more testing against aggressive decks though. Unfortunately I am not sold on any of the replacement proposed so far...
The deck does need another mass removal tool aside from the Disks, since it ends up being too slow or vulnerable (Needles) otherwise.

Stifle is good. Although 4 might be too much. The point is the less you have, the more you increase your chances of not seeing one in your opening hand... I found that a 1st turn Island / Stifle their Fetchland is an amazing play. Protecting your lands against opposite Wastelands is also quite nice. I do agree though that Stifle usually plays better on paper than in your hand, but you can always, later in the game, pitch them to FOW. Nevertheless I am still undecided about that slot.

Furnace / Crypt : in the matchups where Tormod's Crypt / Furnace would be required, Stifle would definitely be boarded out. However, Furnace, at least in T1, often proved too slow for me when compared to Tormod's Crypt. Maindecking Furnace, although it cantrips, should be reserved to metagames full of graveyard-based decks, and thus is a metagame call.

Fact Or Fiction, as previously stated in this thread is a bit clumsy, and very expensive, often used to find an answer in a pinch. Impulse might be a good replacement.

Maindecking bounce spells might be a solution to some of the deck's problems (artifacts, enchantments), however Repeal looks horribly expensive to me. In my opinion Chain Of Vapor does fit the gameplan better. Are they willing to sacrifice lands to bounce some of yours ? I do not think so.

[Dessyreqt]

Nevermind that Chain of Vapor can't bounce lands.

Also, it was used successfully in the past, when Landstill was U/R before (when I first started playing it.) The tradeoff, of course, is whether you want bounce that cost more than what you're bouncing, but not costing a card, or bounce that is almost guaranteed to not cost more than what you're bouncing.

The general rule is that a counter should cost less mana than what it's countering, otherwise it's less and less inefficient, and costs you tempo. I would think a similar statement should be made about Chain of Vapor. As kimberley said,


You do not kill with an empty board. You kill with tempo. That includes some damage with Lands while your opponents are tapped out or something, but is primarily based on the decks high amount of direct damage potential and draw capacity.


But I think Chain of Vapor is better tempo than Repeal. Not to mention it comes online first turn. That can stop Lackey right there. Not to mention other stuff like first-turn Hyppie. That's tempo advantage, whereas Repeal is trying to cause card advantage.

I played with your lists, kimberley, and I am quite pleased with them. You do draw cards like crazy. But I think Chain of Vapor is a better choice than Repeal, and Electrolyze is a better choice for a cantrip. I cannot comment on Disrupting Shoal, however, as I am forced to stick with Counterspell.

Another card I am excited about for this deck is Spell Snare. Any thoughts?

EDIT: The side event at GP-Barcelona had 120 people. That deck placed 3rd-4th. Sounds good to me.

[Vervamon]

You are right, Chain cannot bounce lands, I tend to read those cards too hastily... However that makes it even more interesting. The only real thing they can bounce would be Crucible. Because I do not think one would play Chain with a Disk in play...

With a deck as mana hungry as this one, having spells that cost 2 or less is the way to go.

Regarding Spell Snare, it only counters things that cost 2. What about Force Spike then ? It should be as useful as Spell Snare during the first turns, and can counter anything. Usually spells with converted mana costs of 1 and 2, even 3 depending on their curve.
In the mid-game it can still buy you some time by forcing them to choose between the several spells they intended to play.

[kimberley]

But I think Chain of Vapor is better tempo than Repeal. Not to mention it comes online first turn. That can stop Lackey right there. Not to mention other stuff like first-turn Hyppie. That's tempo advantage, whereas Repeal is trying to cause card advantage.

Basically this is true. But the most frequent situations in which bounce is desired are to be taken into consideration.
Many of these situations are mid or late game situations, where mana does not matter all that much.
As i pointed out in my starting post i see 3 groups of situations, where Repeal (or bounce in general) is useful.
1. Bouncing a game altering permanent. The most prominant is Pithing Needle, which kills the deck single handedly. Things like Worship or Confinement are in this category too,
2. Things that affect tempo without much influence from mana or land count - the most prominent being Aether Vial.
3. Creatures, that are going to kill you while both you and your opponent are in top deck mode. The most prominent example in this categorie is Werebear.

Lets stick with the last example, which is imo the most relevant one for a comparison of Repeal and Chain:
If you are playing against NQGw, you and your opponent both have 10 life, 5 lands in play, he has a Bear, no hand, you have Repeal as your only hand card.
Do you want to trade it for Chains? No!

I concede that Chains is better against things like ... let's say a Lackey, but that is not the purpose of that slot - you have other cards for that.

[Dessyreqt]

I surely hope I don't end up in that situation, especially considering how much this version of landstill draws cards.

And if one of those lands is a manland, I'd much rather have Bolt or Fire/Ice.

But, personally, I'd rather rather have Chain in the deck. Repeal is perfectly valid, too. It has a different purpose. So, it could even be conceivable to run both.

So then the question isn't about Repeal vs. Chain of Vapor. It's about how much you want to devote to tempo and how much you want to devote to card advantage.

I would also apply this argument for Electrolyze, because it generates both.

[Tao]

@ Chain vs. Repeal

You cannot compare Repeal and Chain of Vapor in any way. Both cards do different things. These two cards are like Orim's Chant and Abeyance for Wombat or Rifter. People play Abeyance because it has a function in forcing Key Spells through Countermagic AND you can throw it in randomly EoT (or in the Upkeep) against any deck just cantripping. That cantripping is the main thing here. If it wouldn't cantrip, people could never afford to run many of them maindeck. And that is why Orim's Chant is not played in these decks. Same is true for Repeal and Chain. Kimberley forgot to add point 4 to the summary what Repeal is good for:
4: Anything that is on the board (even your own Chromatic Sphere against decks playing no permanents) whenever you have some Mana and want to replace the Bounce in your hand.

The Lackey: If you mention Lackey as thing where Chain of Vapor is better you could also compare Fire/Ice to Twiddle or Shock. Lackey is not that relevant. You have 11 solution MD on the draw and 50% of the deck are solutions for Lackey on the play. Therefore no further Layckey hate is needed.
And the most important thing: none of these choices is because of Goblin Lackey: Force, Shoal and Bolt just happen to be good cards that randomly kick Lackey's first turn butt better than Chain of Vapor.

Your other point, Speed versus Card Advantage: Even though the deck has tons of Card Advantage, it plays in a great percentage of games with an empty or small hand vs. all kinds of decks. And in these situations Repeal is a bazillion times better (or even more - so much better that you cannot compare it) than Chain of Vapor.

@Kim
The Spell Snare thing: I think we have found a great Sideboard Card in this. You can side it in vs. Deadguy (their deck), Burn (PoP!, Jet, Flame Rift), Rifter (Abeyance, Rift) and Solidarity (Impulse, Reset, Remand, Twincast). Not to forget randomness like Scpter Chant, Gro with Scepter and crappy Survival. I think you are going to like it ; ).

[Ebinsugewa]

Have there been any more tournaments to test at? Though I sold my Standstill stuff a while back, the concept of 'removal not sucking' has got me intrigued.

[kimberley]

Have there been any more tournaments to test at? Though I sold my Standstill stuff a while back, the concept of 'removal not sucking' has got me intrigued.

I have further tested the list with Chromatic Sphere.
As far as i can tell it is fairly balanced and absolutely usable.
None the less it still offers options for improvements.
As i pointed out, the matchups against Burn and Solidarity are especially problematic, which made me add BEBs #5 and #6 to my SB.
It is absolutely possible to have a 50/50 matchup against VG without those additional Blasts and without a single Pyroclasm.
So in fact there are 5 slots in the current SB, which are dedicated to Solidarity and Burn (2 U Blasts, 3 R Blasts (which i rarely board against NQG or any U-based control)), while those matchups are still the worst this deck has.
That is a huge space for experiments. Some of them (i would like to name Mystic Remora as one at least) are currently in testing.

To answer your question: No, i did not play any further events with my revised lists yet. I do not know if other people did.
It is not like i do not play other decks as well. ;)
None the less, i can asure you, that by having done the famous "zillan" metric fuckton of work with more old-fashioned versions of UrLandstill during 2005, i am capable of gauging the improvement of the versions presented in this thread.
Despite i am an absolutely cautious person, i asure you these lists are valid and playable.

Still you have to be aware of the fact, that this is not the formats best aggro-control deck. If you want to win a tournament with a light aggro-control deck, NQGr is the more solid choice anyday.
In addition i have to warn everybody, that the lists i presented in this thread are difficult to pilot...at least compared to NQGr or UW Landstill.
No one who is a control player by heart should touch this deck. Anybody who tries will realize very soon, that this deck is demanding a high tolerance for distress, risk and romantic plays.
You don't have to be an extremely skilled player to pilot this. Look at me - i suck.
But training with the deck itself is absolutely recommended.

[Lukas Preuss]

Look at me - i suck.


hahaha, QFT.

No, just kidding, you're pretty good with that deck and I like it a lot, although I won't touch it any day soon, since I will probably suck even more with it than you do. ;) Oh, that, and I don't own any Volcanic Islands.


Do you think 3 Red Blasts are enough to bring in against a competent Solidarity player? I mean, yeah, I have to admit that Solidarity is one of the decks that are not always prevalent at huge tournaments, but you want to be prepared if you face one in the finals, don't you? ;)

Speaking of it, are you coming to any of the Western German tournaments (either Dülmen or Iserlohn) during May?

[Ebinsugewa]

In a meta without Burn or Solidarity (if anyone ever plays combo, it's me), would you recommend trying this out? We have a lot of Goblins, and some random Thresh every once in a while. Our meta can be sort of shaky, but mostly it's aggro.

Also, what makes this different from the white control builds? Do you have to be more proactive with removal, how often do you send it to the dome, etc. I would appreciate some help, because it seems this deck plays a much different version of control than I am used to.

Thanks!

[kimberley]

Do you think 3 Red Blasts are enough to bring in against a competent Solidarity player? [...]
Speaking of it, are you coming to any of the Western German tournaments (either Dülmen or Iserlohn) during May?

3 Blasts are not enough. 8 would not be either imo. Wins are possible - you are not determined to loose (like UW Landstill usually is pre board) - but they are based on pure chance most of the time.
A "hard" choice has to be add to fix that - something like Lab.
I am simply not yet ready to sacrifice that much SB space (the deck would still need 4 of them to produce any relevant improvement).
I have to admit that despite i constantly take Solidarity into accout, when i think about the trap that SB is in, i am much more focussed on Burn, which is played more often ... and simply annoying.
I also tend to the believe, that if the deck ever reaches a state of having an acceptable Matchup against Burn the Solidarity MU will improve as kind of a splash damage.
Sadly things do not look great for Remora in the current state of testing, which was my first try to link the two matchups.
Next try will be CotV i guess....but i am frightened about trying that...
As you can observe, i am confused - as always.

I im a bit lazy right now, partly because of my study, partly because of the zk promotion. My Asthma is another factor...so don't expect me before June.


In a meta without Burn or Solidarity (if anyone ever plays combo, it's me), would you recommend trying this out? We have a lot of Goblins, and some random Thresh every once in a while. Our meta can be sort of shaky, but mostly it's aggro.

Also, what makes this different from the white control builds? Do you have to be more proactive with removal, how often do you send it to the dome, etc. I would appreciate some help, because it seems this deck plays a much different version of control than I am used to.

First of all: Your Meta is a very favorable one for the deck.
The Red Blasts may be dropped entirely in a meta like that, which opens space for just about anything. There are numerous suggestions in this thread, which i denied regarding an average meta (containing Solidarity and Burn), that may be viable in an Aggro based meta like yours.
You may also consider to readd an artifact removal (i always liked Smash) or Pyroclasm to the SB, in a meta like yours.
I really cannot tell you what to do, cause i am absolutely not used to not being faced with the decks worst matchups - so you have to try it yourself. :)

I am burning the dome very frequently. In fact this deck is much more associated with CounterBurn than with UW Landstill.
Obviously this is not true for a MU like VialGoblins. There the main difference is, that you have better chances on preventing damage by your high ammmount of fast removal, instead of using a sweeper to produce CA.
Obviously Disk is used at some point during stabilization against VialGoblins simply to get rid of the Vials and make a Standstill stick, but it really isn't the point - instant removal spells are.

[Hoojo]

What are your thoughts on running Sirocco vs Solidarity? I realize this is more of a Burn/Aggro strategy, but it seems most other answers are too narrow. I say this only because Sirocco, while it may not be needed, could also be used against blue-based control and Gro.

[My Name Is Scott]

What are your thoughts on running Sirocco vs Solidarity? I realize this is more of a Burn/Aggro strategy, but it seems most other answers are too narrow. I say this only because Sirocco, while it may not be needed, could also be used against blue-based control and Gro.
With your clock, sirocco is terrible against solidarity. They just take a hit for the good stuff, and discard what they don't need. You're better off running more blasts.

[Boogy_Boy]

Question:

Don't you miss Wrath of God? I mean if you happen to let a Troll Ascetic resolve, wouldn't it become a problem?

[MasterBlaster]

Don't you miss Wrath of God? I mean if you happen to let a Troll Ascetic resolve, wouldn't it become a problem?
That's what Nevinyrral's Disk is for. Also Its common to have Pyroclasm in UR Landstill's sideboard.

[Dessyreqt]

Okay, I haven't been able to post in a while, so I'm gonna have to reach back a little bit and work my way forward.

First off, I don't mean to truly compare Chain and Repeal. They perform differently. My point is that I prefer what Chain does over what Repeal does. With a deck like the ones presented on the front page, do you really need another card just for the cantrip? Now, I realize a lot of game-altering permanents are very inexpensive. And I do like Repeal. I am even running Repeal right now in many of my decks. I just like that Chain is very mana friendly. Maybe it's because I still run Counterspell (only for lack of Shoals). I don't know. I like to leave my options open. And I think Chain allows me to do that more often than Repeal. But I don't think any less of those who prefer Repeal. I just have my preference. Oh yeah, I don't get to playtest enough any more, as our local shop disappeared. So maybe you shouldn't listen to me at all on this.

Next, I've never had the pleasure of playing against Solidarity, but I would think that a decent plan would be saving all counters for one card: High Tide. The have no graveyard recursion that I know of, and they have only a few counters, one of which includes Remand. (I suppose this is another reason not to switch entirely to pitch spells, like if the Remand Counterspell, you don't really care so much. But let's pretend they're not that dumb.) Your drawing should give you enough counters to stall them, and Manlands + Burn should be a short enough clock given that you're stalling on the one card that allows them to go off. (I'm sorry if I'm missing another way, like I said, I've never played against it, but I did play my own version a couple of times.) I don't know. I don't think it's a particularly favorable matchup, bu I don't think it's all tha bad either.

Oh, and why would you be afraid of Chalice of the Void? Sure Chalice for one hurts you, especially looking at your cantrip-tastic version, but it does improve some important matchups. But it does need a lot of consideration. I've kept it as a sideboard card in just about every version of Landstill I've ever run, since the card was released. Or are you talking about running it main?

I've been playing Landstill for what seems like ages. It's very existence made Volcanic Island my first dual land. I've played it through its many incarnations. I just need to go out and play more, I guess.

One more thing: I've been thinking about Burning Wish. Do we have enough sideboard space for it? Do you think a version including it would be viable? I know Cunning Wish was never so great in Landstill, but Burning Wish get more powerful cards. Possibilities here: http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3632

Yes, that's a lot of jank, but I really only intend to spark ideas and discussion. I think there's enough good stuff to put in a wishboard, the only question is to whether we can benefit from this type of flexibility.

EDIT: Replaced dumb list with a more useful one.

[Dessyreqt]

Don't mean to double post, especially since I just edited my last post, but I'm currently fiddling with a version similar to the first post (final list), replacing TFKs for Electrolyze. Against any 1.5 player I play, I've been winning, but I played this one kid in the local store (I've moved to a place that has one, yay!) And he beat me with a Standard Ghost Dad deck. Every. Time. WTF? (In hindsight, I should have replaced Chromatic Orb... what was I thinking...?)
*goes to change deck*
*goldfishes*
First Hand: Waste, Crucible, Bolt, FoW, F/I, Brainstorm x 2.
Nuts. If only that land was an Island. Anyway.
Chromatic Orb seems neat, but I don't think it's worth including in the deck. Electrolyze is all I hoped it would be. But one thing that Ghost Dad deck always seemed to have is creature advantage (Until I smashed his face in with RGSA... stupid Standard player), That is, he always had something out, was attacking with it, and would generally whittle me down very slowly. Once a sufficient sized creature comes out, sometimes Disk is not enough/not showing up/already used on the first copy of that creature. Sometimes I just wish I had more counters. (I broke into 1.5 with a control deck most akin to Cuneo Blue)
And so, I'd like to toss another card onto the pile of mediocrity being considered for the deck. Once you realize that Chromatic Orb is really only in there for not costing a card (Yeah, it pitches to TFK, too, so it saves a card there, too) you can replace it with pretty much any cantripping spell that does SOMETHING. Then TFK becomes weaker. It's inclusion is based on the fact that it's better than FoF. TFK grabs you three cards , then you choose from you hand two cards to discard. FoF lets you see five extra cards, which the opponent must then split (usually the split isn't easy or they don't do it right.) Assuming you end up with the raw deal on the split, you still get about 2 cards every time. Your choice of what to throw away is much more limited. kimberley said her purpose for FoF is to tutor a burn or counter spell. But TFK works faster, and could increase our chances of beating combo pre-board. Nevermind that we're control (of the aggro- variety, but we have counters nonetheless.) We shouldn't have to worry about Solidarity and the like. Either we lose and can't do anything about it anyway, or we have the counters and the draw spells to stop them. Since we are Landstill, not NQG, we have 11 cards that cannot be played at instant speed. The artifacts are useless anyway. Standstill should have gotten us more better cards when the cantrip end of turn two. Any more should be discarded anyway. Slice and Dice cycles when we draw it. So we have Solidarity, who gives us more advantage every time the play a High Tide (We cantrip almost as much as they do, we just need a mass draw to help... more on this later.) We now have land that taps for multiple mana. We can counter with that mana, or get more counters with that mana. ("Oh, but they have free counters.") We have more. And if they want me to try a counter again because of Remand, it shouldn't be a problem. Our counters are all free. We want the deepest digging spell we can find for the chapest, and 5 for 4 is a greater ratio than 3 for 3. What we throw out isn't too relevant in this scenario. Sure it's kind of slow, but Solidarity won't be rushing against us. We can stop the first High Tide if we think they're rushing it. But likely, they won't, as Landstill has the "Slowest Kill Ever." Or maybe Stifle should see its day back in the sun. In any case, I'd like to see Landstill have its day back in the sun, and as far as I can tell, the only people who've really done anything for that is Mario Ofivo and Nicolas Francois.

BTW, I'm pretty sure the missing card in OFivo's list is FoF number 2. His list seems to follow the traditional mold of UR Landstill, but with Electrolyzes and a more modern mana base. I think it kind of rare (and weird) to run FoF as a one-of.

[Zir]

I've done some testing with a list identical to Kimberly's.
Faerie Stompy: Seems decent, the matchup looks a lot like the Angel Stompy one, only slightly better due to the decrease of Pro-Red and the lack of Angels. Efreets are quite hard to get rid of, as they're out of bolt and fire range. Try removing them asap. Their Chalices are quite annoying, though you can play around them or remove them with Disc. I'd recommend countering them though.
The matchup seems to be in your favor, something like 60%.

[troopatroop]

That's what Nevinyrral's Disk is for. Also Its common to have Pyroclasm in UR Landstill's sideboard.

And then they use Regeneration. If it resolves you have no outs.

Think before you post.

[Tao]

I ping this thread because UR was heavily discussed in the Landstill primer. But the discussion belongs to this thread.

// Lands
5 [ON] Fetchlands
1 [RAV] Mountain
2 [RAV] Island
3 [UL] Faerie Conclave
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [R] Volcanic Island
3 [TE] Wasteland

// Spells
4 [AT] Lightning Bolt
4 [AP] Fire/Ice
2 [GP] Electrolyze
3 [AT] Nevinyrral's Disk
3 [GP] Repeal
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [IN] Fact or Fiction
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [BOK] Disrupting Shoal
3 [SC] Stifle

// Sideboard
SB: 5 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 5 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [TSP] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [GP] Repeal


I liked Psyches / Kimberleys list, but in the newer Meta I miss Stifle too much and I couldn't find any cards that I was able to cut so I dismissed the idea of Thirst for Knowledge and Chromatic Sphere. I liked Adan's list but I missed Repeal and a second good draw spell that compensates the card disadvantage of the Pitch counters. So I re-added Fact or Fiction to the deck, even though it is not optimal and I also added the Repeals. The list is not optimal and I am not satisfied with it, but I think this thread needs a ping.

The SB is not really creative but quite effective in fighting Threshold, Goblins and Combo.

For those who hate UR Landstill some things it does better than UW Landstill. (Note that I don't say UR is the better deck, it just does some things better and other things worse):
- it has a better Goblin matchup because it has more spot removal
- it has a better matchup against decks like Rifter, Truffle Shuffle or Train Wreck because it can burn them out
- it is stronger against Hanni Fish because it has more solutions against Confidant, Mother of Runes and Meddling Mage; the Grunt is easier to handle for UW but that is only 1 card
- it is better against Combo because your clock is faster

[Adan]

AHHH, I'M BLINDED!

5 REBs?! You're exaggerating :laugh:

But I also re-added Repeal to my list, ending up with this:

// Lands
2 [UL] Faerie Conclave
2 [TSP] Island (1)
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [TSP] Mountain (1)
4 [R] Volcanic Island
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [OD] Barbarian Ring
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire

// Spells
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
3 [AT] Nevinyrral's Disk
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [SC] Stifle
3 [GP] Electrolyze
4 [AP] Fire/Ice
4 [AT] Lightning Bolt
2 [ON] Slice and Dice
3 [BOK] Disrupting Shoal
3 [GP] Repeal

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast

In my current meta, I like Slice and Dice better. Dunno why, but it's versatile.

But Repeal is a good solution against Needles or somthing else that's nasty.
I also prefer Needles in the Sideboard. Because I can board more properly against Goblins.

Against Goblins, I cut the Stifles, the Slice and Dices and 1 Repeal for the 6 Blue Blasts and the 3 Disks for Needles.

I only needed the Disks to dispose Aether Vial, but Pithing Needle is faster than Disk. It's also cool against Survival Decks, which are coming back.

[TheMagicWizard]

So i want to present my current Landstill here. I think UR Landstill ist still a very good deck, but there is also a new very broken card against this deck in the meta: Extirpate! When you lose you Factory and Conclave, you just have no chance to win. So first here my final list with comments:


// Lands
2 [UL] Faerie Conclave
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [UNH] Mountain
4 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [UNH] Island

22 Landsa are enough for UR Landstill I think. The Ruins are very good to get infinitv boardsweeper. Of course, they also prtect you CoW. The rest is default i think.

// Spells
4 [AP] Fire/Ice
2 [IN] Fact or Fiction
2 [ON] Slice and Dice
4 [4E] Lightning Bolt
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
3 [GP] Electrolyze
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [5E] Nevinyrral's Disk
4 [CS] Rune Snag
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives

I play Explosives main. In the current Meta they will find agains earch aggro deck good targets. Agains NQG and Fish it is one of the best cards. And another advantage is, that you can handle the Needle and Vial complete Preboarded! FoF is a good Lategame card, with a Synergie with CoW. I descidet to play Rune Snag as the second counter. For Counterspell you dont have every time the UU and Mana Leak is just weaker in the Middle and Lategame. Disruption Shoal is also good, but it is a very weak force and makes in most chases carddisadvantage! Electrolyze is a great card agains Aggro and makes in bad matchup 2 dmg without carddisadvantage!

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [WL] Phyrexian Furnace
SB: 2 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [5E] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [US] Morphling

In my current Sideboard i dont play that many BEB, because i have also lots of good cards agains gobbos in the maindeck. So there some free room for Chalice, which eats 2 DTBs and protects against Extirpate. The one Morphling is just to have a winoption after Factory and Conclave is going out.

[movingtonewao]

sorry to necro, but this deck is 9-0 after day 1 at jersey? apparently dig through time and lack of wasteland in general helped.

[Blastoderm]

sorry to necro, but this deck is 9-0 after day 1 at jersey? apparently dig through time and lack of wasteland in general helped.

I know the guy playing it. It was a pleasure to watch him crush Reid Duke on Miracles...beautiful deck!

[amalek0]

Wrong thread to talk about Lan Pham's deck. Although he did in fact play the classic land-still build, the overall shell more comes from the dreadstill shell, just with more permission elements instead of the phyrexian dreadnaughts. You'll likely find more productive discussion over there as the tech is more current when you want to consider variations on UR standstill threads.

[thefreakaccident]

Urw Landstill

lands//20
4 flooded strand
3 scalding tarn
2 arid mesa
4 volcanic island
2 tundra
4 mishra's factory
1 mutavualt

creatures//2
2 true-name nemesis

Draw spells//18
4 gitaxian probe
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
4 standstill
3 treasure cruise

control//20
4 force of will
4 spell pierce
1 counterspell
4 lightning bolt
4 forked bolt
3 swords to plowshares

sideboard// (still undecided)
3 pyroblast
2 red elemental blast
3 meddling mage
3 rest in peace
3 wear/tear
1 snapcaster mage/swords to plowshares


I'm really liking this list at the moment. The sideboard may need some tuning, to which i'm open to some advise. The mainboard has been feeling really strong. Chaining standstills and treasure cruises end games period. The 11 spot removal spells usually let you get to that point. Once you're there, you burn the opponent out after having chipped at his lifepoints the whole game.