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aedrew
09-12-2018, 01:12 AM
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=83731&type=cardhttp://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=425889&type=cardhttp://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=226755&type=card

I. Introduction

UB Death’s Shadow is a Delver Deck that leverages Death’s Shadow as a powerful and cheap creature that can push a ton of damage to the opponent to close the game before they recover from the deck’s efficient disruption. Your cheap discard and permission let you pick apart combo decks and if your threats can stick, you will have a good chance of outclassing fair decks on the ground before they can stabilize with more powerful cards.

Because you have a surplus of free and one mana spells and card selection, you often make many decisions per turn and you have to carefully manage your fetching patterns and life total. This makes the deck difficult and rewarding to play.

II. Example Deck Lists

Josh Utter-Leyton, 2nd Place Pro Tour 25th Anniversary (Team Trios)
August 2-5, 2018

Main
4 Delver of Secrets // Insectile Aberration
4 Death’s Shadow
2 Gurmag Angler
2 Reanimate

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Preordain
4 Street Wraith

4 Thoughtseize

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Stubborn Denial

2 Fatal Push
2 Snuff Out

4 Wasteland
3 Watery Grave
2 Underground Sea
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard
3 Dread of Night
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Throne of Geth


Noah Walker, 4th Place Grand Prix Richmond
August 31-September 1, 2018

Main
4 Delver of Secrets // Insectile Aberration
4 Death’s Shadow
2 Gurmag Angler
2 Reanimate

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Preordain
4 Street Wraith

4 Thoughtseize

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Stubborn Denial

2 Fatal Push
1 Dismember
1 Snuff Out

4 Wasteland
3 Watery Grave
2 Underground Sea
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta

Sideboard
1 Darkblast
1 Dread of Night
1 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Marsh Casualties
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Massacre


Basic_Swamp, 1st MTGO Legacy Challenge
November 10, 2019

Main
4 Delver of Secrets // Insectile Aberration
4 Death’s Shadow
2 Gurmag Angler
2 Reanimate

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Preordain
4 Street Wraith

4 Thoughtseize

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Force of Negation

2 Fatal Push
2 Snuff Out

4 Wasteland
3 Watery Grave
2 Underground Sea
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
4 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Submerge
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Plague Engineer
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Ratchet Bomb


III. Main Deck Card Choices

Threats
4 Death’s Shadow
On its face, a big vanilla creature for one mana and some setup. Because it lacks evasion, you will often want to make it big enough to threaten lethal and put your opponent in “the Abyss” by forcing them to sacrifice chump blockers every combat step. When you untap with two, you can usually threaten lethal immediately. The avatar also has pseudo-vigilence at times because you can find yourself in a position where your opponent’s attack won’t kill you but would make your Shadow lethal.

When playing against red decks, you usually want to wait to play the Shadow until it is big enough, or can become big enough at instant speed, to not die to the opponent’s damage-based removal. You also need to manage your life total carefully to not unnecessarily die to direct damage, a removal spell, evasive creatures, or creatures with flash or haste.

Two commonly played cards force you to gain life, thus threatening to kill your Shadows:

Swords to Plowshares - this card threatens to exile one of your creatures and take all your Shadows with it. You can play around this scenario by not deploying multiple Shadows against this card and by making sure your life is low enough that a Plowed Delver or Angler won’t kill your Shadows. When this just exiles a single creature, you can usually recover from the life gain easily. Sometimes it is even welcome as it can turn on dead Street Wraiths, Reanimates, and Thoughtseizes when your life is low. There will be times where the risk of blowout is outweighed by the need to close the game out quickly and you will be forced to expose yourself to Swords. Remember, you can use your removal on your own creatures to “counter” the exile and life gain clauses of Swords to Plowshares. This way you can stay low for your Shadows and rebuy your threats with Reanimate or Liliana, the Last Hope.
Grove of the Burnwillows - this offers your opponent a source of uncounterable and reusable forced life gain. However, you have Wasteland and you can often plummet your life total faster than the opponent can force it back, just don’t get surprised by playing out a Shadow when you are at 11 or 12.
Combat damage is marked on you and on Death's Shadow at the same time, so a small Death's Shadow can block a bigger creature and let another creature hit you. By the time lethal damage is checked, the Shadow can grow out of lethal range. For example, if you are at 12 and your 1/1 Shadow blocks an opponent’s 1/1 while letting another 1/1 go unblocked, the Shadow will deal 1 damage to the blocked creature but survive as a 2/2.

4 Delver of Secrets // Insectile Aberration
An evasive one-mana 3/2 that lets you close out the game while disrupting the opponent. It requires you to run a critical mass of instants and sorceries to reliably flip it. You can use Ponder and Brainstorm to flip it as well. It also provides 4 more blue cards to pair with Force of Will. A turn one Delver is usually a good play, as early pressure is important to keep your opponent scrambling to catch up and unable to play around your soft permission.

Some other interactions of note:

You often want to leave up a fetchland so you can decide to shuffle before drawing the card you see off of the upkeep trigger.
You may want to fetch before casting Ponder or Brainstorm if it is important to flip your Delver using the cantrip.
Delver can be important as your only blocker against fliers like Marit Lage or creatures with protection from black like Mirran Crusader.
Feel free to Brainstorm on upkeep to flip a Delver if you need to get aggressive, especially with multiple Delvers on the field. However, this deck plays enough instants and sorceries that you can usually blind flip in a few turns.

2–3 Gurmag Angler
Like Shadow, this is a big vanilla “one mana” creature that requires some setup. In that sense, it plays as Shadow five and six. However, it provides some nice resistance to Fatal Push and Abrupt Decay. Some interactions of note:

You’ll sometimes prefer to play a fetch over another land just to fill your graveyard for the delve cost.
Angler is a Zombie for Liliana, the Last Hope emblem.
Angler is weak to bounce effects, like Jace, the Mind Sculptor's -1, however, because you you are not heavily taxing your graveyard, you can often afford to replay an Angler once or twice.
When choosing what to Delve, you will want to preserve creatures as potential Reanimate and Liliana, the Last Hope targets. If your opponent plays Snapcaster Mage, you will want some good instant or sorcery targets in case you Reanimate the Snapcaster. If you are facing Tarmogoyf, you will want to try to eliminate card types. Also, don’t over-delve if you can afford to tap mana, as you may need to cast another Angler later.

0–2 Reanimate
Reanimate is a threat that suffers from sometimes doing nothing. On the other hand, it serves as main-deck graveyard hate and helps flip your Delvers. All your creatures are good targets if you can afford the life loss. The turn one play of cycle Street Wraith, Reanimate it, go to 10 to 13 life, usually sets you up to close the game out. This spell also works great against the decks with Griselbrand and other huge creatures as well as value creatures like Snapcaster Mage and Baleful Strix.

Cantrips
4 Brainstorm
The best blue card selection spell when paired with fetchlands. Use with a fetchland to shuffle away bad cards in your hand, but remember, you don’t always have to shuffle two cards away if some of them are good. Use it to flip Delver. Use it to hide cards on the top of your deck to play around discard. Use it to dig for needed cards and sculpt a strong hand. A turn one Brainstorm is usually not a great play, as you won’t have a shuffle effect ready. Still, a Brainstorm on your opponent’s turn before your turn two can make sense to protect yourself from discard, try to find a Force of Will or Daze to stop a crucial spell, or to setup a powerful turn two play, like Hymn to Tourach.

3–4 Ponder
Lets you see up to 4 new cards. It is often better to Ponder than to Brainstorm when you do not have a fetchland. Use it to set up your Delver triggers. Sometimes you will want to use it as a shuffle effect to pair with Brainstorm. Remember to plan your current and next two turns when stacking with Ponder, and consider whether or not your planned plays will require you to shuffle.

0–2 Preordain
Lets you see 3 new cards, but gives you the option to skip over one to two bad ones. Leaving both on top can help flip a Delver. You can also use the scry to clear away bad cards from a Brainstorm when you don’t have access to a shuffle effect. Playing a first Preordain over a fourth Ponder is controversial in the sense that it is not clearly correct as Ponder sees more cards and better helps to flip Delver. However, it is also not controversial in the sense that the two blue cantrips are close in power level and there are times when Preordain is better.

4 Street Wraith
Doesn’t provide you with card selection, but lets you see one more card for zero mana at instant speed. Provides life loss to fuel your Shadows and a creature in the graveyard to fuel Gurmag Angler, Reanimate, and Liliana, the Last Hope. When on the battlefield, the 3/4 5-cmc body can be hard for many decks to deal with and the Swampwalk is great against Baleful Strix. You can also use the cycle to keep your scry before you have to shuffle. The instant-speed life loss can serve as a pump spell with Death’s Shadow to blow out blockers or counter damage-based removal. You should usually cycle it before casting Thoughtseize to have more information when you select which card to discard. If you need land, cycle it before you fetch. If you don’t, fetch first.

Discard
4 Thoughtseize
Probably the best discard spell and the life loss is an upside in this deck. It helps pick apart combo decks or clunkier decks with high mana curves. Also useful to clear out removal before deploying your threats. Turn one Thoughtseize can save your life against combo or prison decks. It also pairs with Reanimate to grab your opponent’s best creature. The information you gain from Thoughtseize is also extremely valuable as you can plan when to expose your threats, how to play through opposing permission, and how to best spend you Dazes and Force of Wills.

Permission
4 Force of Will
I don’t think this is a necessary evil in this deck. Sure, you need it to not get scummed out by a turn 1 combo deck. But, you also need it to advance your tap out, aggro plan. You can recover the card disadvantage though your sources of virtual card advantage: playing a low land count with cantrips, creatures that outclass most things in combat, and by winning while your opponent still has cards stuck in hand.

4 Daze
Another card that lets you pursue an aggro, tap-out approach. Because you put enough pressure on your opponent and play Wastelands, your Daze’s are usually live. Remember, you can also use it—even on your own spells—to pick up and replay a Watery Grave if you need the life loss or if you need an untapped mana-source under Choke or Back to Basics.

0–2 [CARDS]Stubborn Denial
These round out your countermagic suite. Great as a hard counter to protect your Shadow or Angler from removal or stop expensive planeswalkers and enchantments. As with Daze, the “Force Spike” version is often enough.

0–2 [CARDS]Spell Pierce
Very similar to Stubborn Denial. Obviously a bit better without Ferocious and worse with it.

0–2 Force of Negation
These act as Force of Will five and six with a better chance to hardcast. Note, these are less good in this deck than others because we often spend a force on our turn to protect our threat.

Removal
1–2 Fatal Push
Kills most things you want to kill in Legacy. You need to think about saving fetchlands or Wastelands to turn on revolt. It is nice to have a few removal spells that do not cost life, as you often need to remove a blocker to win when you are at 1 or 2 life.

0–2 Snuff Out
Gets the things that Fatal Push and Dismember cannot, for no mana. It is nice to be able to tap out against an Aether Vial on 1 and have this for and end-of-turn Mother of Runes. The “nonblack” clause is a real downside though, as you can’t get Baleful Strix, Death’s Shadow, Gurmag Angler, Street Wraith, or Griselbrand.

0–2 Dismember
Provides a flexible source of life loss as you can chose to lose 0, 2, or 4 life that hits Gurmag Angler. You can also use this as an out to Magus of the Moon.

Lands
3–4 Watery Grave
You need enough shocklands to make your Shadows castable. In the blind, you should start out fetching untapped shocks. If you are playing against an opponent that you can expect to chip away at your life total, fetch Underground Seas or tapped Watery Graves first. If the makeup of your hand prices you into losing a lot of life, avoid fetching untapped Watery Graves.

8–9 Fetchlands for Island or Swamp
You need fetchlands to make this deck work. They let you shuffle away bad cards from Brainstorm, Ponder, and Delver triggers. They fuel delve for Gurmag Angler. They help you control your life total for Death’s Shadow. You’ll want to diversify the names if you can to play better against Pithing Needle and Sorcerous Spyglass.

2–4 Wasteland
Multiple Wastelands can lead to “free wins” by preventing your opponent from casting any meaningful spells. But just keeping your opponent tight on mana makes your Dazes and Stubborn Denials great. Also lets you interact with land-based strategies like Dark Depths.

0–2 Underground Sea
You want to be able to get mana sources when you don’t want to lose life. You also want to be able to operate off of a single mana source and cast black cards while keeping Daze up. Play betas.

0–2 Basic Island or Swamp
A basic Island or Swamp could replace an Underground Sea or Wasteland to provide protection against Blood Moon effects and allow for some play around Wasteland. This also provides value against Path to Exile and Ghost Quarter.

IV. Sideboard Card Choices

Diabolic Edict and Liliana's Triumph
Comes in as additional or improved removal. Provides an answer for otherwise hard-to-kill creatures like True-Name Nemesis, Marit Lage, and Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. Triumph has the advantage of not targeting opponent, so gets around Leovold, Emissary of Trest trigger and Veil of Summer in addition to the upside when played alongside Liliana. There are corner cases where being able to target yourself matters, like versus lifelink.

Karakas
The best answer to Marit Lage because it cannot be discarded by the typical means and costs a mere land drop.

Submerge
Free spells are good. Wipe away tokens or cast this with a shuffle effect on the stack to put a creature back into your opponent’s deck. Or, just use this as a timewalk while you try to out-tempo your opponent.

Dread of Night
Pretty much only for Death and Taxes (and maybe Soldier Stompy). Can be useful against white token machines like Monastery Mentor. Remember, this card is great against Death and Taxes, but not lights out. Typically, they win through this by suiting up a creature that can survive the effect with equipment and outclassing your board. They still have Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile, Council’s Judgment, and Palace Jailer to deal with your threats. In addition, they still get to cast their white creatures as spells, getting the enter the battlefield triggers. They will also have a few ways to remove the enchantment in Council’s Judgment and Leonin Relic Warder.

Hymn to Tourach
Great at disrupting spell-based combo decks and dealing with the reactive cards in a control opponent’s hand. Can also lead to “free wins” if you take out your opponents mana sources.

Liliana, the Last Hope
An important planeswalker threat with an ultimate that can win the game against control decks that can easily deal with your creatures. Her "Weakness" is great against Baleful Strix and Young Pyromancer or any deck with a lot of X/1s like Elves. You can even -2/-1 your own creatures to lessen the life gain from an opponent’s main phase Swords to Plowshares. Her "Raise Dead" helps prevent you from running out of threats and can clear two bad cards after a Brainstorm or Ponder. If you think your opponent will find an answer for her and there are no X/1s to take out, it is nice to -2 and get value right away rather than racing to the ultimate.

Plague Engineer
A good proactive answer to True-Name Nemesis, go-wide creature strategies like Elves and Death and Taxes, and potential Empty the Warrens. Secondarily, it can trade with most other creatures in combat.

Surgical Extraction
Targeted graveyard hate. Zero casting cost is a must against the turn 1 Reanimator decks. Also great against Life from the Loam and Punishing Fire. Can serve to hobble any combo deck when paired with your discard quite, but at its best against graveyard combos.

Engineered Explosives
A good answer to Chalice of the Void. Remember, you can play with the casting cost by tapping Wastelands or multiple sources of a single color to get around Chalice effects. Also serves as a sweeper against decks with a high concentration of 1-cmc permanents or tokens. Though clunky, it is one of the few ways in blue and black to deal with artifacts and enchantments.

Nihil Spellbomb
A good mass-graveyard-hate spell that replaces itself and leaves your graveyard intact.

Contentious Plan
A focused answer to Chalice of the Void that can always cycle or pitch to blue Force. Set opposing Chalices to 2 and try to lock out your opponents spells, including future Chalices on 1. Also has some utility in upsetting Blast Zone or Aether Vial.

Ratchet Bomb
Another answer to Chalice of the Void and other artifacts and enchantments. More versatile than Throne of Geth and Engineered Explosives because you tick it up to deal with a permanent of any CMC.

Darkblast
A good removal spell for X/1s that can help fuel delve and find things to buy back with Reanimate and Liliana, the Last Hope. You can cast it in upkeep then dredge it back to use it twice in the same turn.

Marsh Casualties
Takes out True-Name Nemesis and wipes out X/1s in Death and Taxes and Elves. However, double black at sorcery speed may be hard to achieve against Death and Taxes.

Massacre
A little more versatile than Dread of Night and free to cast. However, will kill your own Delvers.

Toxic Deluge
A much more universal sweeper, but more difficult to cast at 3 cmc. The life loss could lead to dream scenarios of clearing the board to attack for lethal with a huge Shadow.

Flusterstorm
Good against blue permission and to stop spell-based combo, but misses key cards like Sneak Attack, Animate Dead, Blood Moon, Ensnaring Bridge, and Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

Mystical Dispute
This is a poor man’s Red Elemental Blast, but it does the job. People rarely play around Mana Leak and countering a Jace, the Mind Sculptor, True-Name Nemesis, or Baleful Strix feels pretty good.

Bitterblossom
Another card to help against control match ups. This is especially good when your life total is not under pressure but can be bad later in the game when your life total is already low. Watch out for opposing Lightning Bolt which can out race you or opposing Liliana, the Last Hope which can stop the token stream on the way to ultimate.

Winter Orb
This is a means to keep your soft permission live against control decks that are relatively wasteland immune. I worry about spending 2 mana to slow down the game against a control opponent, but this card shows up often in sideboards.

V. Splashes

Both red and green have been used as effective splashes. However, splashing makes you much more vulnerable to opposing land destruction as you will only have 1 or 2 sources of the splash color and, at times, one or two sources of one of your main colors. Furthermore, you are sometimes forced to use your fetches early to eploy a Shadow, exposing you precious mana sources.

Red

The red splash provides reach, better artifact removal, and access to Pyroblast effects. Red also helps a lot against Protection from Black creatures.

Lightning Bolt
Provides efficient removal, reach, and helps deal with planeswalkers.

Abrade
Provides artifact removal with the flexibility to hit a creature. Great against Death and Taxes and Goblins.

Pyroblast, Red Elemental Blast
Great answers to Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Force of Will, and the plethora of blue spells played in Legacy.

Temur Battle Rage
Helps push through the last bit of damage against a clogged board. A bit weak as it doesn’t do much with Delver.

Green

The green splash provides reach, better non-creature permanent removal, and access to Sylvan Library.

Abrupt Decay
Lets you deal with problematic artifacts, enchantments, and planeswalkers. Can take the place of some Fatal Pushes main deck.

Berserk
Like Temur Battle Rage, helps push through damage on a clogged board, but can also double as a removal spell on your opponent's’ attackers while helping you plummet your own life total.

Sylvan Library
Helps rebuild after a Swords to Plowshares and generally if you have a Death’s Shadow on the board and untap with Sylvan Library you should be in a pretty good place. On the downside, it costs two mana and does nothing until your next draw step.

Golgari Charm
A pretty good sweeper and piece of enchantment removal in one. The regeneration clause is also nice to “counter” some removal, including Abrupt Decay.

VI. References

Blue-Black Death's Shadow Deck Guide, LSV (https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/blue-black-deaths-shadow-deck-guide)
The New Best Legacy Deck, Ben Friedman (http://www.starcitygames.com/articles/37550_The-New-Best-Deaths-Shadow-Deck.html)
Modern and Legacy Death's Shadow Updates, Ben Friedman (http://www.starcitygames.com/articles/37586_Modern-And-Legacy-Deaths-Shadow-Updates.html)
Old UBg Death's Shadow Thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32368-UBg-Death-s-Shadow)
Legacy Death Shadow Discord (https://discord.gg/3DnegHP)
Andrea Mengucci Talks Legacy Death’s Shadow (https://www.channelfireball.com/videos/andrea-mengucci-talks-legacy-deaths-shadow/)




LOOM TALL

JackaBo
09-12-2018, 02:34 AM
A great pile of knowledge

Kagehisa
09-12-2018, 04:38 AM
Great primer !

Have Mind Bomb have been discussed already ? It seems to me to be fitting the plan : reducing both our and opponent's life total.

It can be used to discard Angler if we have Reanimate or simply feed the graveyard to help casting Angler.

It's blue for FOW and a burn spell. I can't imagine an opponent discarding cards to prevent the damage unless they are Reanimator or another graveyard deck. It helps the deck to close the game faster. With Shadow in play, it is 6 damage for one blue mana (3 direct damage and +3/+3 for Shadow).

I can't see what to cut but Stubborn Denial.

Turn 1 fetch, shockland, Mind Bomb, 14 life and opponent at 17 life.
Vs
Turn 1 fetch, shockland, Stubborn Denial...

TLDR -2 Stubborn Denial +2 Mind Bomb ?

SudoWooodo
09-12-2018, 01:23 PM
Awesome primer!

I don't think Mind Bomb is worth a spot, it's just a little too cute and I'm a big fan of stubborn denials to protect your threats (since you're relatively light on them)

Has anyone had much success running 1-2 basics to help against things like Back to Basics which was all over at Richmond?

123jjs321
09-12-2018, 01:50 PM
This primer is great. I’ve already linked it into the discord for Legacy Shadow with encouragement that any users who are active there and in The Source should help flesh out discussion and community in this thread.

With that said I wanted to make sure you/viewers had the Discord channel’s invite — https://discord.gg/3DnegHP

Thanks again for putting in the legwork on a legit primer, aedrew.

aedrew
09-12-2018, 11:05 PM
Thanks for the positive comments. I don't get to play as much as I'd like, so its nice to have a chance to think and write about Magic.

As for Mind Bomb, I guess the dream scenario is finishing off someone at 0 cards behind an Ensnaring Bridge, but it's hard to imagine this is worth a card when your other cards are so good in general. But if you try it, let us know how it goes.

Mr. Safety
09-13-2018, 09:07 AM
I was wondering when this deck would get moved to 'established', lol. It's been performing very well, especially considering its relative 'new-ness' to the format.

Dice_Box
09-16-2018, 06:25 AM
I was wondering when this deck would get moved to 'established', lol. It's been performing very well, especially considering its relative 'new-ness' to the format.
Did not take it long to move up the chain once more. You are now the second fastest deck to move into the DTB behind Eldrazi. Congrats.

Lord Darkview
09-16-2018, 08:02 AM
Here are my answers to two common questions, originally posted on the Legacy Death's Shadow Discord server at https://discord.gg/QtxHEye

Is it viable to play this deck without any copies of Underground Sea?

The short answer is yes, but a player must build and play differently to account for the change.

1. Having 14 sources of blue and black mana are considered optimal to reliably cast a turn 1 spell from either color. If you opt to play Basic Lands rather than a full 14 fetch-lands and dual-lands, you will slightly increase the probability of needing to mulligan.

2. You will often face situations where you need to fetch without taking a Shock. This is especially true with respect to Daze, as repeatedly playing Grave untapped can be either useful or suicidal. Having a Sea in your library means that all of your fetch-lands can find both colors.

3. Decks with Basic Lands have a different vulnerability profile to Wasteland. Decks with purely duals cannot easily be taken off a color, but have an chance of being taken off both. Fetching a Basic Land immunizes one color from Wasteland, but increase the vulnerability of the other.

4. Basic Lands help against a variety of other mana-denial effects. While Blood Moon and Back to Basics are still powerful cards against you, being able to fetch a Basic Land gives to a chance to fight through them.

5. Having Basic Land grants other incidental perks, such as the ability to ramp from an opposing Path to Exile. Often opponents do not expect Delver decks to have any Basic Land, and this can often provide a small edge which can upset the opponent’s calculations, or add doubt and cause them to make mistakes.

In conclusion, having Basic Land should not be seen as better than Underground Sea, nor should it be viewed as just an underpowered, budget approach. It is a viable alternative with its own distinct tradeoffs, and players should consider the rest of their deck, their playstyle, and the anticipated field before deciding on which they prefer.

How many Wasteland should I play?

As many as your metagame requires.

Wasteland is not as essential for DDSD as it is for other Delver decks that are highly-dependent on tempo-advantage. DDSD has much more staying power, since its creatures can be substantially bigger. It also has other control options besides mana denial in its strong suite of discard spells and countermagic (notably including Stubborn Denial).

That said, mana denial is as valid an attack angle for DDSD as it is for any Delver deck, and Wasteland still synergizes quite well with Daze. Tempo-advantage may not be the only choice, but it is still a choice. Leveraging that choice encourages playing 3-4 Wasteland.

Additionally, Wasteland can answer problematic Lands, which are usually outside the purview of either countermagic or discard. Opposing Rishadan Port, Maze of Ith, Dark Depths, and so on can be quite difficult to fight against, and Wasteland gives a way to deal with those cards which would otherwise be absent. For that reason, having Wasteland is justifiable even if you’re not at all interested in mana-denial.

In conclusion, you should vary your Wasteland count in relation to the expected field. Fields that are more vulnerable to tempo-based attack or present singularly powerful Lands demand a higher Wasteland count, typically 3-4. Fields that are more resistant to tempo-based strategies and present fewer threatening Lands will require fewer Wasteland.

Michael Keller
09-19-2018, 10:57 AM
Here are my answers to two common questions, originally posted on the Legacy Death's Shadow Discord server at https://discord.gg/QtxHEye

Is it viable to play this deck without any copies of Underground Sea?

The short answer is yes, but a player must build and play differently to account for the change.

1. Having 14 sources of blue and black mana are considered optimal to reliably cast a turn 1 spell from either color. If you opt to play Basic Lands rather than a full 14 fetch-lands and dual-lands, you will slightly increase the probability of needing to mulligan.

2. You will often face situations where you need to fetch without taking a Shock. This is especially true with respect to Daze, as repeatedly playing Grave untapped can be either useful or suicidal. Having a Sea in your library means that all of your fetch-lands can find both colors.

3. Decks with Basic Lands have a different vulnerability profile to Wasteland. Decks with purely duals cannot easily be taken off a color, but have an chance of being taken off both. Fetching a Basic Land immunizes one color from Wasteland, but increase the vulnerability of the other.

4. Basic Lands help against a variety of other mana-denial effects. While Blood Moon and Back to Basics are still powerful cards against you, being able to fetch a Basic Land gives to a chance to fight through them.

5. Having Basic Land grants other incidental perks, such as the ability to ramp from an opposing Path to Exile. Often opponents do not expect Delver decks to have any Basic Land, and this can often provide a small edge which can upset the opponent’s calculations, or add doubt and cause them to make mistakes.

In conclusion, having Basic Land should not be seen as better than Underground Sea, nor should it be viewed as just an underpowered, budget approach. It is a viable alternative with its own distinct tradeoffs, and players should consider the rest of their deck, their playstyle, and the anticipated field before deciding on which they prefer.

How many Wasteland should I play?

As many as your metagame requires.

Wasteland is not as essential for DDSD as it is for other Delver decks that are highly-dependent on tempo-advantage. DDSD has much more staying power, since its creatures can be substantially bigger. It also has other control options besides mana denial in its strong suite of discard spells and countermagic (notably including Stubborn Denial).

That said, mana denial is as valid an attack angle for DDSD as it is for any Delver deck, and Wasteland still synergizes quite well with Daze. Tempo-advantage may not be the only choice, but it is still a choice. Leveraging that choice encourages playing 3-4 Wasteland.

Additionally, Wasteland can answer problematic Lands, which are usually outside the purview of either countermagic or discard. Opposing Rishadan Port, Maze of Ith, Dark Depths, and so on can be quite difficult to fight against, and Wasteland gives a way to deal with those cards which would otherwise be absent. For that reason, having Wasteland is justifiable even if you’re not at all interested in mana-denial.

In conclusion, you should vary your Wasteland count in relation to the expected field. Fields that are more vulnerable to tempo-based attack or present singularly powerful Lands demand a higher Wasteland count, typically 3-4. Fields that are more resistant to tempo-based strategies and present fewer threatening Lands will require fewer Wasteland.

I've been running a Grixis variant of Shadow for quite some time now. Color-combinations aside, two cards that I've found to be invaluable in those match-ups against Lands and Miracles out of the sideboard are Tsabo's Web and Winter Orb, respectively. Each extends the game in your favor, and shuts down out of nowhere the ability for these decks to leverage their resources as an advantage. All this in conjunction with Wasteland, as well.

Secretly.A.Bee
09-19-2018, 11:11 AM
I've been running a Grixis variant of Shadow for quite some time now. Color-combinations aside, two cards that I've found to be invaluable in those match-ups against Lands and Miracles out of the sideboard are Tsabo's Web and Winter Orb, respectively. Each extends the game in your favor, and shuts down out of nowhere the ability for these decks to leverage their resources as an advantage. All this in conjunction with Wasteland, as well.

I, too, have been pleased with those two cards. I tried Torpor Orb also, but not enough to get a sense if it's as strong as Tsabo's Web. My main interest is in beating DnT without having 3 DoN in my board.

I play the green splash, largely for Decay and Library, which allows me to immediately draw 2 (amazing what this deck can do after a +2 card advantage boost) and get my DS to a respectable 8/8 after one has been swords'ed. Obviously I'll be trying some number of Assassin's Trophy because if they get a Jace, it's hard to beat. However, I still see value in playing Decay. I'm not sure how my splits will go and all, but I'm sure it will get resolved eventually.

Thought about trying a Berserk, but as of now I'm trying an Apostle's Blessing, thanks to a suggestion here earlier on this thread.

Michael Keller
09-19-2018, 11:16 AM
Apostle's Blessing is also another card I've tested, but honestly, I prefer to give Death's Shadow Shadow Rift. It's blue, it's one mana, it cantrips and it pushes through damage.

Secretly.A.Bee
09-19-2018, 11:55 AM
Apostle's Blessing is also another card I've tested, but honestly, I prefer to give Death's Shadow Shadow Rift. It's blue, it's one mana, it cantrips and it pushes through damage.Yes, but this is Delver, and apostles blessing pulls double-duty; it either protects your threat OR pushes through damage. It's versatile. Play your preference, but this is why I prefer it to Shadow Rift.

streetMage
09-21-2018, 10:29 AM
Great Primer!

I just bought into this deck and want to try and push the UB version until meta forces otherwise...
I was looking up some cards with alternate/additional cost and came across a few that might be of interest:

Contagion seems like a good card to deal with two x/1's and doesn't have the non-black clause.
Skeletal Scrying can refuel our hands and grows Death Shadows. Would have to balance with Angler..

Also since we don't run a creature-less source of direct damage i.e bolt, Tyrant's Choice doubles as removal and direct damage.

I also second the Mind Bomb idea as one worth trying. Does everything you'd want in this deck if you are just playing UB...

Edit: Strike out Skeletal Scrying, I didn't realize you had to pay mana :rolleyes:

aedrew
09-21-2018, 02:24 PM
I don't think Contagion is what you want. Thinking about the common situations where there are multiple X/1s:

Baleful Strix - Gives an opponent a 3 for 1 or a 4 for 2
Young Pyromancer - Gives an opponent a 2 for 1 or better.
Monastery Mentor - Gives an opponent a 2 for 1 or better.
Elves, Goblins, Death and Taxes - could be okay here, but still at most you get a 2 for 2 versus the blowout potential of other sweepers. Instant speed and free is nice for the surprise factor.


This also risks being dead when hell-bent.

I do like Skeletal Scrying against Miracles, serving a role similar to Sylvan Library in black. In this matchup, you will probably have the life, cards in graveyard, and mana to spend.

The flexibility of Tyrant's Choice isn't bad, but I am not sure what it would replace. I feel like you need instant-speed edict effects for Marit Lage.

streetMage
09-21-2018, 02:50 PM
I do like Skeletal Scrying against Miracles, serving a role similar to Sylvan Library in black. In this matchup, you will probably have the life, cards in graveyard, and mana to spend.
Thanks for the feedback. I agree on Skeletal Scrying, I figure if Treasure Cruise was still legal, this deck would run atleast one... this is pretty close; especially when we welcome the lifeloss.. I'm debating on going down a Gurmag Angler for one since they both use the gy.

Secretly.A.Bee
09-21-2018, 08:30 PM
If Treasure Cruise were legal there would be better decks to play, just saying.

Edit: Skeletal Scrying's cost is really high, give it a try if you like, but I play green splash with Library, and it feels miles away better than Scrying looks. 3 Mana for +1 CA is not ideal.

kombatkiwi
09-22-2018, 05:05 AM
Have you read Tyrant's Choice? It will never be removal, because if you want it to be removal the opponent will not want it to be removal and just vote for the non-removal option, which is the default in the case of a tie. The only thing this card does in a 2 player game is 1B your opponent loses 4 life.

Skeletal Scrying costs way too much mana for what you get out of it, I would rather play like Bob or even Arena than that

Mind Bomb is also a terrible suggestion, the average case is U: Lava Spike both players, why would you want to play this card

Secretly.A.Bee
09-22-2018, 01:18 PM
Have you read Tyrant's Choice? It will never be removal, because if you want it to be removal the opponent will not want it to be removal and just vote for the non-removal option, which is the default in the case of a tie. The only thing this card does in a 2 player game is 1B your opponent loses 4 life.

Skeletal Scrying costs way too much mana for what you get out of it, I would rather play like Bob or even Arena than that

Mind Bomb is also a terrible suggestion, the average case is U: Lava Spike both players, why would you want to play this card

Mind Bomb is a blue lava spike against your opponent and a blue giant growth for your Death's Shadow all-in-one. I doubt it's good enough, though.

Your other points are good, but it seems you missed the synergies the deck has with Mind Bomb.

silinhateamtop
09-22-2018, 11:28 PM
the list of the Eternal of Asia, should also be noted. http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=19908&d=328759&f=LE

With the high number of Grixis Control and Miracles, does Bitterblossom not deserve a place on the deck? At where?

Lord Darkview
09-22-2018, 11:49 PM
Winter Orb is definitely a card that should be considered in the SB; its effect is very powerful against control. Unfortunately, it is really only useful against control, and often is sometimes not quite strong enough when opponents may have removal for it. Still, it is one of the cards we can play that is most likely to simply win the game. While I like the idea of Tsabo's Web, it's extremely niche and doesn't beat anything Winter Orb doesn't, so I'd recommend sticking with Winter Orb.

The problem with Mind Bomb and Tyrant's Choice is you never get the mode you most want. Contagion isn't terrible, but I think we can do better (I'd rather play Darkblast, personally). Skeletal Scrying has been addressed.



Today, Noah Walker was spotted running Echoing Truth. I think this card should be considered, especially in relation to Ratchet Bomb and Diabolic Edict.

Ratchet Bomb: Answers all Chalices, Moxen, and tokens at once, can scale up, not color-limited.
Echoing Truth: Instant speed, can pitch to Force, clears multiple Chalices, Moxen, or tokens at once, great versus Reanimator and Marit Lage, can momentarily answer Crusader.
Diabolic Edict: Instant speed, great versus Reanimator and Marit Lage, can theoretically remove a TNN or Crusader.

Anyone who is playing multiple Bombs and Edicts should strongly consider whether replacing 1-2 copies with Echoing Truth might improve their SB's flexibility.

silinhateamtop
09-24-2018, 11:50 PM
Has anyone tested Divert?

Good against removal (stp, bolt, fata), discards (seize, hymn) and even against counters., Etc.

Secretly.A.Bee
09-25-2018, 10:39 AM
I've played Divert in place of a Spell Pierce in lists that play multiple Pierce. It's fine, I just know it sucks when they drop Jace and you are staring at a hand that could have had an answer if you weren't trying to be so cute.

It's fine if you like it, but I don't think it's the best decision you can make, and I certainly don't think it's better than any other card already in the 60.

Sinkhole
09-26-2018, 05:41 PM
What do you guys think is the right Splash color right now and would be getting etablished in the future? Right now I am on the G-Splash with 1 Berserk and 1 Library main. Berserk is great, but Library didn`t impressed me so far. Often times it does just nothing. Further I haven`t seen really much Goyfs so far but a lot of Strixes, which Bolt is the better answer against. Further I think it could make the deck even more aggressive, which is always a main goal of Shadows. Abrade in the Side for all the D&T arround and Blasts for Jaces and other U-stuff. When I started with Shadow`s I was 100 % convinced about the green Splash, but now I am not sure, if it is and will be the right splashing color. I would appreciate it, if you will share your experiences and opinions with me, about the splashing colors.

Greetz

Secretly.A.Bee
09-26-2018, 11:07 PM
Until you are able to adequately test Assassin's Trophy, I don't think you will be able to make a rational, lasting decision. I don't think gauging it's parameters according to how A. Decay plays is going to do it justice.

Abrade against DnT will cost 3 often. If I have to pay 3, I prefer it be a card that handles (almost) any (permanent) in (almost) any matchup or is uncounterable.

I love Library. I'm unsure why you feel that way.

Edit: clarity.

Sinkhole
09-27-2018, 05:28 AM
I have done a lot of testings tonight and I am nearly to be ashmed that I haven`t gotten Library more value before :frown:. The card is a beast! It won me several games, by recovering, where I was far behind one the board. In one match I got double Swords on Shadow 6/6 and Delver, topdecked Library and won with the fast live loss and massive card drawing. I wish I could make room for a second copy of it. Really I have thoughted of cutting one Wraith for it. Wraith always feels like a bad cantrip without Reanimate, but he`s high synergie in the deck not sure. I think I stick to Bug, because of Library and Berserk annother power card in the deck and like mentioned the new (maybe) premium removal Throphy. I think we are the only Tempo deck that could afford it, because we alreaddy doesn`t rely that much on Wasteland and/ or Stifle. Maybe than the deck will change to something more midrangy, because the tempo plan isn`t so valuable anymore, if your opponent gots free ramp.

johncarvalho
09-27-2018, 07:21 PM
What do you guys think about a BR death's shadow build? viable? with bolts, faithless lootings, night's whisper, maybe dark rituals.... just throwing out ideas :laugh:

Thordog
09-27-2018, 07:55 PM
What do you guys think about a BR death's shadow build? viable? with bolts, faithless lootings, night's whisper, maybe dark rituals.... just throwing out ideas :laugh:

u will have to explain your idea a little more.
Do u want to build a tempo deck? Kind midrange.
Anyway, i dont think it is viable any kind. Delver and daze are essencial to tempo out opponents. Dark ritual and night whispers are slow. Faithless looting is card disantvage and the only merit is acellerate gurmag. They are just not good cards in this deck IMO. Only thoughtseize is not enought ahainst combo.
I can be wrong. Maybe u can test a burn br deck with flame rift, shadow, eidolon, and guide or monastery and other burn spell.

Secretly.A.Bee
09-27-2018, 08:51 PM
What do you guys think about a BR death's shadow build? viable?

No.

IamHANDSOME
09-27-2018, 08:57 PM
u will have to explain your idea a little more.
Do u want to build a tempo deck? Kind midrange.
Anyway, i dont think it is viable any kind. Delver and daze are essencial to tempo out opponents. Dark ritual and night whispers are slow. Faithless looting is card disantvage and the only merit is acellerate gurmag. They are just not good cards in this deck IMO. Only thoughtseize is not enought ahainst combo.
I can be wrong. Maybe u can test a burn br deck with flame rift, shadow, eidolon, and guide or monastery and other burn spell.

Lol no this is not what he means...


What do you guys think about a BR death's shadow build? viable? with bolts, faithless lootings, night's whisper, maybe dark rituals.... just throwing out ideas

Try something like this:

4 Death's Shadow
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Gurmag Angler
4 Street Wraith
4 Faithless Looting
4 Night's Whisper
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Dismember
2 Snuff Out
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Reanimate
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
4 Blood Crypt
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland

-> The first idea is to have Death's Shadow which is supported by Night's Whisper, Shocklands, Reanimate, Street Wraith, Snuff Out and Dismember. The second idea to keep the engine running is through Faithless Looting which is harmonizing very well with Reanimate. An other target to discard for Looting and making it more powerful is Cabal Therapy which leads to playing Young Pyromancer as your second Tempo card which replaces Delver of Secrets of Ub Shadow. Gurmag Angler is just an other "free" creature which is extremely hard to remove so you put it in. Dont play Bedlam Reveler, this is way to optimistic in Legacy imho. And wooolllaaaahh, this could be a BR Shadow list, it obviously needs to be tuned a lot, this is just an idea.

2 things before even testing it: The deck is definitely worse than BR Reanimator! Second fact is against combo decks Thoughtseize and Therapy are worse than counterspells + eventually discard spells from the board, so it is also less powerful to everything which comes in U (not playing against U, just against the field compared to U). Also protecting your threats against removal spells seems somehow impossible unless you pack in even more discard! But that does not mean its a "BAD" build in general. Play around with it and test it yourself, maybe Cabal Therapy is to optimistic and 4 Hymn to Tourach could do a much better job. Also Kolaghan's Command could be sweet. Im afraid that Faithless Looting as good as the card is would loose a lot of value and then the deck is much more terrible than it should be. So somehow you need to make it worth that discard is strong enough to beat unfair decks and Faithless Looting remains powerful. Maybe more creatures and 4 Reanimate? Test it and let us know :) But dont get your hopes up, Tempo in U is just soooo much better than BR.

johncarvalho
09-28-2018, 05:55 AM
@IamHandsome Yeah, I was talking about something like that =) It's very similar to what I had in mind, I will test some stuff and report back when I can!

Secretly.A.Bee
09-28-2018, 02:40 PM
RB is different fundamentally. IF you manage to find a way to make a legacy deck without blue with Death's Shadow, I would encourage you to make a thread about it. Discussion of a deck with only one or two overlapping card choices and a different overall strategy (mid-range vs. tempo) seems like it warrants it's own branch-off instead of cluttering up this one.

Izor
09-28-2018, 05:55 PM
Played UB Shadow for the first time today and 3-0 (6-0'd) a local tournament. I must say the deck feels really strong, even after I thought it was going to lose steam once the hype around CFB's performance would end.

When browsing lists I stumbled upon a list that made a 1st and 2nd place finish in the most recent SCG Legacy classic, which completely cut Reanimate and any counters beyond the obvious 8 (Daze, FoW) in favor of maindeck Hymn to Tourach, the 9th cantrip and the 5th creature removal spell, which does seem like a minor but noticeable change when compared to the stock original CFB list most people just adopted in the last few weeks. Has anyone tested those alterations and knows more abut the reasonings behind them?

Not knowing what exact list to bring to my first attempt at the deck I played a list with all singletons in those last few flex slots in the main to find out what I liked best, but 3 rounds weren't quite enough to get representative results. Needless to say the deck still worked very well regardless.

IamHANDSOME
09-28-2018, 08:08 PM
Played UB Shadow for the first time today and 3-0 (6-0'd) a local tournament. I must say the deck feels really strong, even after I thought it was going to lose steam once the hype around CFB's performance would end.

When browsing lists I stumbled upon a list that made a 1st and 2nd place finish in the most recent SCG Legacy classic, which completely cut Reanimate and any counters beyond the obvious 8 (Daze, FoW) in favor of maindeck Hymn to Tourach, the 9th cantrip and the 5th creature removal spell, which does seem like a minor but noticeable change when compared to the stock original CFB list most people just adopted in the last few weeks. Has anyone tested those alterations and knows more abut the reasonings behind them?

Not knowing what exact list to bring to my first attempt at the deck I played a list with all singletons in those last few flex slots in the main to find out what I liked best, but 3 rounds weren't quite enough to get representative results. Needless to say the deck still worked very well regardless.

I remember LSV saying that Reanimate is actually a very important card for the deck which took it to a much higher level because Street Wraith became all of the sudden a virtual flipped Delver. I think in general you can build Ubx Shadow in many different ways imho but the fact is that with Miracles and Grixis Control belonging to the best decks its insanely easy to remove a Shadow. Just think about Swords to Plowshares, Fatal Push and Diabolic Edicts. So I think Stubborn Denial is a very important card for that deck. Playing 5 removal spells instead of 4 is probably better in creature heavier metas, so you could cut maybe 1 Thoughtseize or 1 Reanimate for it. Hymn to Tourach main feels a little clunky next to Thoughtseize, but its excellent in the sideboard especially against combo.

Lord Darkview
09-29-2018, 05:42 PM
While a lot of the deck's power (and let's be honest, fun too) comes from Reanimate, I think it is acceptable to consider reducing the quantity in a metagame is filled with white removal, where your cycled Street Wraiths are your only targets. I also think increasing the quantity of disruption and matching it to needs is important, and Stubborn Denial has done a lot to reduce the impact of random Swords to Plowshares and Terminus to our boards.

That said, we may be a victim of our own success. While we're undoubtedly the most powerful non-combo deck in the format, DSD was designed to smash an environment where a large portion of people were convinced that casting Show and Tell was the best thing you could be doing, and that combo otherwise was great. Unfortunately, we did so well, there is pretty much no combo around anymore (or it's of the select sort that we don't have great weapons against), and this has allowed heavy-control decks to start dominating things.

I suspect we will probably see a decline in DSD play over the next few months (a few points, not anything near total abandonment), which will open the door to combo to winnow the Miracles and Grixis Control players, and then things will reach a sort of cyclic equilibrium. Which is pretty much always how it goes.

streetMage
10-01-2018, 12:10 PM
Reanimate is what makes the deck for me...
Besides its pure synergy with Wraith and Shadow, its awesome grabbing the oppnts Griselbrands, True-Names, Emrakul (non-shuffle one) etc..
Also, reanimating a Snapcaster Mage, then targeting Reanimate to get another creature from the yard is priceless.

silinhateamtop
10-02-2018, 06:31 PM
what is the impact of Assassin's Trophy on metagame and about Shadow for you?

Secretly.A.Bee
10-02-2018, 10:26 PM
what is the impact of Assassin's Trophy on metagame and about Shadow for you?I'm playing a 1/1 Decay/Trophy split main and side to test. so far it makes me want to play Surgical main, but I still think that's the danger of cool things in me talking.

Poron
10-03-2018, 04:06 AM
Hymn + Trophy will just take back Spell Snare

Field of Ruins also is making UWcontrol always better

Secretly.A.Bee
10-03-2018, 09:29 AM
Hymn + Trophy will just take back Spell Snare

Field of Ruins also is making UWcontrol always betterSure. I play Daze, FoW, wasteland. I'll take my chances.

bio-dwarf
10-03-2018, 11:05 AM
What you guys think about 2 Bitterblossoms in the sideboard, I can see in the last few weeks that it's gaining popularity.

I am thinking of buying 2 for my sideboard but I am not 100% sure. I guess the main reason is beating Grixis Control?

It's the same with Liliana's Defeat, I think this is also mainly for Grixis Control.

It makes sense to create a good anti Grixis Control sideboard seeing the current meta, what do you guys think of this current development.

Thanks! :)

Secretly.A.Bee
10-03-2018, 11:24 AM
I agree we need to think about the Grixis matchup, but I've had a difficult time finding good things to say about BB. It's really slow and overall decreases tempo. The lifeloss is uncontrollable other than destroying it yourself, which is probably card disadvantage, as well as a waste of a removal spell. However, the lifeloss isn't in large enough amounts to make it useful in that regard, either. I wish Greed were cheaper to cast.

bio-dwarf
10-03-2018, 11:48 AM
I am currently testing this list:

Creatures [14]
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Death's Shadow
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Street Wraith

Instants [17]
2 Dismember
3 Fatal Push
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Sorceries [13]
1 Preordain
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Reanimate
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize

Lands [16]
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland
4 Watery Grave

Sideboard [15]
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Dread of Night
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Liliana's Defeat
2 Bitterblossom

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=28624&iddeck=235423

I like the main, but not really sure about sideboard, I am more thinking something allong the lines of this:

2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Dread of Night
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Flusterstorm
1 Dark Blast
1 Liliana's Defeat
1 Marsh Casualties

Any thoughts? :)

Lord Darkview
10-03-2018, 02:27 PM
One thing I'll say is that I really dislike the 3 MB Push with 1 SB Darkblast I've seen in a few lists. I prefer to just put 2 and 1 in the main. In my opinion, Darkblast is a bit too low impact to be a great SB card, and most decks with Push targets also have good Darkblast targets (often the same ones). This frees the SB slot, has very little utility cost, and even gives you some advantage in longer games where Darkblast can help to separate cantrip chaff while keeping troublesome blockers like Strix and Mom off the board.

Secretly.A.Bee
10-03-2018, 02:40 PM
One thing I'll say is that I really dislike the 3 MB Push with 1 SB Darkblast I've seen in a few lists. I prefer to just put 2 and 1 in the main. In my opinion, Darkblast is a bit too low impact to be a great SB card, and most decks with Push targets also have good Darkblast targets (often the same ones). This frees the SB slot, has very little utility cost, and even gives you some advantage in longer games where Darkblast can help to separate cantrip chaff while keeping troublesome blockers like Strix and Mom off the board.This is a fair point. I'm not one to even play fatal push (just my playstyle, don't read too much into it), but I would agree with this for lists that do.

bio-dwarf
10-04-2018, 07:00 AM
Yesterday I played around 4 hours against Grixis Control. In the end is was something like 3-7 for the Grixis player. I felt like the beginning is strong but I can’t really close the game in the end. Sideboarding helps but I still feels it not in my favor. I player this list, it’s close to my previous post.

Creatures [14]
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Death's Shadow
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Street Wraith

Instants [17]
2 Dismember
3 Fatal Push
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Sorceries [13]
1 Preordain
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Reanimate
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize

Lands [16]
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland
4 Watery Grave

Sideboard [15]
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Dread of Night
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Flusterstorm
1 Liliana's Defeat
1 Marsh Casualties
2 Bitterblossom

I sideboarded like this: -4 Fow -1 Ponder +2 Liliana +2 Bitterblossom 1+ Liliana’s Defeat.

After sideboarding it felt a bit better, I quick Bitterblossom can be a winner and thats the same as a quicky Liliana. But still it doens’t really feel in my favor.

My opponent told me he was less scared of this list because of the lack of 4 Wastelands. I can go back to the more traditional 18 lands version without playing the Hymns main. I will test that version tonight against him and see if thats better of worse.

I think it’s importent to have a decent game againt Grixis Control, but I am not sure what rout to take. And I also need to keep in mind to beat Death and Taxes and Miracles as the other tier 1 decks.

What do you guys think to beat a control heavy meta with Death’s Shadows? :)

JackaBo
10-04-2018, 02:17 PM
Winter orb beats control. Great with daze and increases the value of stubborn denial

Izor
10-04-2018, 02:24 PM
In response to Trophy being on the map I'd also like to mention the possibility to play basics.

Even before Trophy was a thing I included one of each basic in order to beat the many Loam/B2B/Blood Moon decks in my local meta and they've won me numerous games while not being a huge cost whatsoever. At least in straight up UB lists I think they should be considered. I'm playing 8 Fetch, 3 Watery Grave, 1 Usea, 1 Swamp, 1 Island as my 14 and I'll keep doing so.

Secretly.A.Bee
10-04-2018, 04:53 PM
In response to Trophy being on the map I'd also like to mention the possibility to play basics.

Even before Trophy was a thing I included one of each basic in order to beat the many Loam/B2B/Blood Moon decks in my local meta and they've won me numerous games while not being a huge cost whatsoever. At least in straight up UB lists I think they should be considered. I'm playing 8 Fetch, 3 Watery Grave, 1 Usea, 1 Swamp, 1 Island as my 14 and I'll keep doing so.Good point. I'm working a single island in to my list (land 19) so I can have an out to blood moon in the form of BEB post-board.

aedrew
10-04-2018, 11:35 PM
What do you guys think to beat a control heavy meta with Death’s Shadows? :)

I agree that Wasteland is good to punish their clunkiness and keep your Dazes live.

Another suggestion is to cut Fatal Push post-board. It is your worst removal spell against them because it can't hit Gurmag Angler and you don't want too many reactive cards as you really want to pressure them and win before they can out-grind you with card advantage. Two Dismember and a Liliana's Defeat are probably good enough, but you could consider bringing in Diabolic Edict, specially if you suspect a True-Name Nemesis..

I'd rather leave in some Force of Will even though it is bad against their discard because you really want to overwhelm them by unloading your hand while they are stuck with cards they can't yet cast. In addition, you can use Force of Will to ensure your game winning cards of Liliana, the Last Hope or a reanimated Street Wraith can do their job.

bio-dwarf
10-05-2018, 09:12 AM
I think I will settle for this list for the coming tournament Sunday after a lot of testing.

Creatures [14]
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Death's Shadow
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Street Wraith

Instants [17]
2 Dismember
2 Fatal Push
2 Stubborn Denial
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Sorceries [13]
1 Preordain
2 Reanimate
3 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize

Planeswalkers [1]
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

Lands [17]
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
3 Watery Grave

Sideboard [15]
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Dread of Night
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Marsh Casualties
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Bitterblossom

I changed the Following:

Main Deck:
-2 Hymns
-1 Ponder
-1 Fatal Push
-1 Watery Grave

+2 Stubborn Denial (I think this is more all around then the 2 Hymns main board)
+1 Liliana, the Last Hope (This card can win the control matchup on it's on, I think it's good to have on pre sideboard.)
+1 Wasteland (2 Wastelands was ok but more Wastelands help in the control matchup)
+1 Verdant Catacombs (Having 17 lands in the decks feels like the right number, 16 was a bit light and I don't think 18 is necessary, and playing Lili main board needs atleast 1 more land)

Sideboard:
-1 Liliana, the Last Hope (Went to the main deck)
-1 Liliana's Defeat (Needed to make room for the Hymns)
-1 Flusterstorm (Wil be replaced for Dread of Night)

+2 Hymns
+1 Dread of Night (1 Dread of Night felt a bit light, and this card works well for Death and Taxes and Miracles which are both Tier1)

I am thinking of maybe adding the Liliana's Defeat back to the sideboard but I am not sure what to remove for it.

I will keep in mind to keep some Fows in against Grixis Control en removing the Fatal Pushes post sideboard.

If some one has any tips ideas or advice let me know, or else this will be my list for Sunday! Ill try to remember how it went and write a little report :)

Thanks for all the help so far! :D

bio-dwarf
10-10-2018, 05:03 AM
So I ended at a 50 player tournament at 5-8 and I am really happy with the result :)

Here is the list: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20252&d=332253&f=LE

Live stream of QF: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/320096195

I lost in the QF, after some analysis of the footage I saw what I did wrong. Round 2 I put the Bitterblossom on top to protect it instead of a land. His Hymn hit my land and then I was to far behind to win. Round 3 I should have shuffled with the first ponder to find a land, I did it with the 2nd one but didn't find a land and got mana screwed. Offcourse it also variants, I could easily found a land with the 2nd Ponder or he couldn't have a Wasteland, but he did so I got beaten round 3.

I also did some minor errors, returning a Underground Sea instead of a Watery Grave with Daze and other minor things.

The one thing I am thinking to change from my current list is to put Lili main back in the sideboard and play an addition Wasteland. It won my a game but I am not sure if this is the right place for Lili pre sideboard. I am also replacing the preordain with a 4th Ponder. I just want to dig deeper.

If you see things I could do differently or better I want to know :) I would like to improve my game.

I will post a small report soon.

Thanks for all the help! :)

jethstriker
11-01-2018, 10:35 AM
Hey guys, I recently built up the main deck stock list of shadow delver. Mainly because I already own a straight UB reanimator and it shares the majority of its components (mana base, counter suite, cantrip suite, discard suite). I'm still in the process on building the sideboard and would like to ask how essential Liliana, the Last Hope. I understand that Liliana is boarded in primarily for the control match up, but if for some reason I can't / don't want to invest in her, what would be my best options? I've seen lists running Winter Orb, which doesn't hurt us as much since we can operate on a single land. I've also seen list that try Infernal Contract, since this will be boarded in the control match up, we can realistically produce the necessary amount of mana. Would you say these are realistic options?

JackaBo
11-01-2018, 11:09 AM
Hey guys, I recently built up the main deck stock list of shadow delver. Mainly because I already own a straight UB reanimator and it shares the majority of its components (mana base, counter suite, cantrip suite, discard suite). I'm still in the process on building the sideboard and would like to ask how essential Liliana, the Last Hope. I understand that Liliana is boarded in primarily for the control match up, but if for some reason I can't / don't want to invest in her, what would be my best options? I've seen lists running Winter Orb, which doesn't hurt us as much since we can operate on a single land. I've also seen list that try Infernal Contract, since this will be boarded in the control match up, we can realistically produce the necessary amount of mana. Would you say these are realistic options?

Liliana is good versus control but also against swarm decks like elves. You don’t get that kind of versatility in any other card. That being said I believe that winterorb is great in any delver list.

Secretly.A.Bee
11-01-2018, 09:00 PM
Unfortunately, in my experience, I can say your StP matchups (Miracles, DnT and other Blade varients) will be very difficult to win without her. I would find a way to pick up one, or more preferably, two.

Edit: definitely play the singleton Winter Orb. Totally worth it.

Lord Darkview
11-07-2018, 06:02 AM
Liliana helps to hold the ground against creature-based decks like DnT, persist against grindy decks like Grixis Control (where recurring your threats and killing Strix are both important), and provide an alternate and difficult-to-answer win condition against decks like Miracles. Basically, she's important against around half the metagame, enough so that some builds have played a copy in the main or up to three in the SB. There is no other card that fills all these roles, which means to work around her will require a significant (and probably inferior) SB redesign.

I strongly suggest you not try to avoid acquiring at least two LtLH. Her overall impact is greater than any other SB card we typically run.

Hyper_ion
11-07-2018, 10:14 AM
I am usually a 4c-Loam player, but given that I mainly play Shadow in Modern, I am keen on trying it out in Legacy. My only concern are the 2 Underground Seas: Is it reasonable to play 2 basics instead? Or let's say I have access to 1 U-Sea, would you rather play Island or Swamp?

Lord Darkview
11-07-2018, 11:26 PM
I am usually a 4c-Loam player, but given that I mainly play Shadow in Modern, I am keen on trying it out in Legacy. My only concern are the 2 Underground Seas: Is it reasonable to play 2 basics instead? Or let's say I have access to 1 U-Sea, would you rather play Island or Swamp?

This has been discussed in depth earlier and on the Discord. Ben Friedman directly advocated the use of Basics as well. Only lists without Basics have put up top results, but I'm not convinced that's due to inherent weakness as much as the best players typically owning Seas and gravitating towards lists that have already done well.

The short version is that you can play 0, 1, or 2 Seas. Some of us have had plenty of success with Basics, as they help against PtE, ATrophy, B2B, and Moon. They're mixed against Wasteland, as they protect only one color at a time while making the other more vulnerable. If you play one or more Basics, I strongly suggest you run a 15th color-producing Land to ensure you have at least 14 of each color. I have generally seen the Basic Island given precedence over the Basic Swamp, but I've seen at least one person disagree with that assessment. Also, if you run both, you may complicate your fetchland configuration, since only Polluted Delta can get either basic.

Personally, I run one of each, and 15 color-producing Lands in total.

ryscott85
11-12-2018, 08:51 PM
This has been discussed in depth earlier and on the Discord. Ben Friedman directly advocated the use of Basics as well. Only lists without Basics have put up top results, but I'm not convinced that's due to inherent weakness as much as the best players typically owning Seas and gravitating towards lists that have already done well.

The short version is that you can play 0, 1, or 2 Seas. Some of us have had plenty of success with Basics, as they help against PtE, ATrophy, B2B, and Moon. They're mixed against Wasteland, as they protect only one color at a time while making the other more vulnerable. If you play one or more Basics, I strongly suggest you run a 15th color-producing Land to ensure you have at least 14 of each color. I have generally seen the Basic Island given precedence over the Basic Swamp, but I've seen at least one person disagree with that assessment. Also, if you run both, you may complicate your fetchland configuration, since only Polluted Delta can get either basic.

Personally, I run one of each, and 15 color-producing Lands in total.


I didn’t see him “advocate” basics in any of the articles or the podcast I heard, however; I did see him state that it’d be a decision that was meta dependent. The majority consensus overall by what i’ve Observed is that it is slightly less optimal overall, however; again it depends on your meta. If that is the only barrier for entry into the format, go for it! The legacy community is always looking to expand its player base and with tight play and much practice, the difference in two land slots is probably negligible. If you really love the format and want to make the decision to invest in duals, you can always do that down the road. Heck, in the right meta burn can be good; I’d argue that shadow with basics fairs much better overall, especially if you have the higher priced sideboard cards already as well like Liliana for the tough matchups like pile.

Listlik
11-14-2018, 06:57 AM
Is splashing worth to be done? Currently i am playing standart two colour list and feel very comfortable with it, but i want to ask players who prefer UBg version of Death's Shadow. Is Decay so cool? I am talking only about an advantage which green colour gives to our UB deck. In my mind decay is first of all an ultimate answer for chalice, but in other situations it is just a not the best removal card (yes, it can destroy Moon, BtB, 3 cmc Planswalker, Counterbalance, Bridge - but all of theese bombs did not force me to feel myself super frustrated while my online testing with ub version). They are pretty slow, not very popular or even not so dangerous. That is why i consider decay only as a chalice breaker. And am i correct when declare that green splash is worth only for chalice heavy metagame?

Dr. No Face
11-14-2018, 10:41 AM
In the discord chat for Death's shadow, the consensus has been a splash in another color is generally considered a tertiary color (e.g BUG death's shadow,) rather than a splash. There are other benefits to running bug, such as access to sylvan library for card advantage and berserk to close out games.

Generally from what I've gathered, the standard green prescence is something like:
1 Sylvan Library
2 Berserk
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay

Going for green does however make your manabase less consistent, so I would consider that when contemplating the additional color.

Listlik
11-14-2018, 04:34 PM
In the discord chat for Death's shadow, the consensus has been a splash in another color is generally considered a tertiary color (e.g BUG death's shadow,) rather than a splash. There are other benefits to running bug, such as access to sylvan library for card advantage and berserk to close out games.

Generally from what I've gathered, the standard green prescence is something like:
1 Sylvan Library
2 Berserk
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay

Going for green does however make your manabase less consistent, so I would consider that when contemplating the additional color.

Yes, i understand splashing green not only for decays, but library is a sideboard (mainly) option for grind games which has a strong opponents in a face of Bitterblossom and Lili the last Hope. Berserk... well i have tested that card and it has not exсited me. As a singlton berserk too random (yes, even with best cantripts in mtg history) and usually (at least while my testing) it was a garbage in my hand. Using more than 2 copies? I dont know - it is better just play Infect. My question about decay and splasing can be reformulated in the following way - are we soo afraid about loosing to resolved chalice that we use chalice hate in a maindeck and in this way green mana (splash).
Talking about less comfortable mana base in 3 colour version - you are totaly right. I feel myself very non-confident when piloting not a super solid UB Shadow but a BUG (for example) variant.

Lord Darkview
11-15-2018, 06:32 AM
The reason to splash is not Decay or Berserk, but Library. We have alternatives for the former two if need be without the splash, even if they are slightly inferior. For Library, there is no substitute--it allows you find threats and answers regularly and continuously to overload the answers of a control deck, and most importantly it turns your opponent's StPs into Recalls on you while still letting you rapidly recover into the life-range where a DS is a threat. It is the single highest impact card I can conceive of against the top-deck in the format right now, and is quite good against a number of others. Berserk and Decay are just gravy.

I still prefer UB for the stability and high resilience to Wasteland. But if I was going to run a splash, it would be green, and it would be for Sylvan Library first and foremost. Not even close.

Listlik
11-15-2018, 04:03 PM
The reason to splash is not Decay or Berserk, but Library. We have alternatives for the former two if need be without the splash, even if they are slightly inferior. For Library, there is no substitute--it allows you find threats and answers regularly and continuously to overload the answers of a control deck, and most importantly it turns your opponent's StPs into Recalls on you while still letting you rapidly recover into the life-range where a DS is a threat. It is the single highest impact card I can conceive of against the top-deck in the format right now, and is quite good against a number of others. Berserk and Decay are just gravy.

I still prefer UB for the stability and high resilience to Wasteland. But if I was going to run a splash, it would be green, and it would be for Sylvan Library first and foremost. Not even close.

Intresting point of view about splasing green mainly for Sylvan Library. While i agree that Library is super strong and unique card i think that there are some better sideboard options for control matchup exist right now. According to my feelings one of these options is Bitterblossom. That card is absolutely bomb and horrible nightmare for miracles and grixis (and not only for control, but actually for almost every fair deck in the format). Anyway thanks a lot for replies, i will continue testing with (and without) green splash, but currently i still prefer standart UB variant.

Secretly.A.Bee
11-16-2018, 10:57 PM
I've been advocating Sylvan Library since I picked this deck up 5 days after DRS-ban. There is still some reason for playing Decay, but I was stoked when I learned BUG was going to gain the ability to remove a JTMS/leyline/Gurmag/etc. via Assassin's Trophy. That has made BUG inferior to grixis for a very long time imo. It's still a tempo loss and twice as pricey as red blast, but its only for specific purposes, and probably only a 1-of main if not an entirely SB-only 2-MAYBE-3-of card.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Lord Darkview
11-17-2018, 02:11 PM
Intresting point of view about splasing green mainly for Sylvan Library. While i agree that Library is super strong and unique card i think that there are some better sideboard options for control matchup exist right now. According to my feelings one of these options is Bitterblossom. That card is absolutely bomb and horrible nightmare for miracles and grixis (and not only for control, but actually for almost every fair deck in the format). Anyway thanks a lot for replies, i will continue testing with (and without) green splash, but currently i still prefer standart UB variant.

Bitterblossom fills a similar role to Library, but it is not nearly as strong. They are 2-mana enchantments that create effective card advantage. There are two main differences that both come down to Sylvan Library giving you more control.
1. Sylvan Library can reduce your life by 0, 4, or 8 every turn, while Bitterblossom is always doing 1 per turn. That means Sylvan Library is ideal for generating fast kills with DS, and also won't risk killing you later on. A late Library is still useful, while a late Bitterblossom can be a dangerous clock on yourself.

2. Your cards have highly variable value, which means getting to choose the best of 3 is worth a lot more than one at random plus a 1/1 flyer.

To be clear, I'm not saying Bitterblossom is bad, because it is in fact very good. But despite being so good, it is not in the same league as Library, because Library is one of the best cards ever printed.

As for ATrophy versus Decay, I'm not sure ATrophy is where we want to be. We only have so many slots to devote to that type of card, and ensuring Counterbalance or Chalice blow up strikes me as much more important than killing a Jace. If Jace stuck and we couldn't kill him by attacking, I feel like such a game was probably already over.

IamHANDSOME
11-22-2018, 11:16 AM
how do you guys see Shadow going forward? The deck has incredible combo matchups but suffers in fair metas. It has problems against all Control lists like GControl, Miracles and also Lands and I dont know how to give Shadow more reach. I allready cutted the 2 Underground Seas for 1 Island and 1 Swamp to be better positioned against all Loam decks and it improved the deck a lot. In my sideboard I also try to advance to bad matchups like Elves and D&T with 2 Dread of Night and 2 Ratchet Bomb. I still dont know how to beat GControl and Miracles. Those decks are sooo OP in nowadays meta and tempo especially Shadow does not have any answers to it. Fatal Push and Snapcaster Mage is extremely powerful. Also Shadow is very light on removal and a single YP you can not handle that moment takes over an entire game.

Do you have any experience to improve the matchups? Maybe running more Stubborn Denial against removal? Maybe adding 1-2 TNN to get around spot removal and stuff like Maze of Iths?

Listlik
11-23-2018, 05:08 PM
how do you guys see Shadow going forward? The deck has incredible combo matchups but suffers in fair metas. It has problems against all Control lists like GControl, Miracles and also Lands and I dont know how to give Shadow more reach. I allready cutted the 2 Underground Seas for 1 Island and 1 Swamp to be better positioned against all Loam decks and it improved the deck a lot. In my sideboard I also try to advance to bad matchups like Elves and D&T with 2 Dread of Night and 2 Ratchet Bomb. I still dont know how to beat GControl and Miracles. Those decks are sooo OP in nowadays meta and tempo especially Shadow does not have any answers to it. Fatal Push and Snapcaster Mage is extremely powerful. Also Shadow is very light on removal and a single YP you can not handle that moment takes over an entire game.

Do you have any experience to improve the matchups? Maybe running more Stubborn Denial against removal? Maybe adding 1-2 TNN to get around spot removal and stuff like Maze of Iths?

What the anti-control "packadge" do you use in your sideboard? I feel myself pretty ok against control decks in post side games. To beat grixis or miracles in first game you have to make wild tempo plays every turn until victory, but with sideboard options these games become more 50/50 and depended on your skill and knowledge of match ups.

Listlik
12-02-2018, 02:41 PM
Well, Death's Shadow is under radar right now (even missed the 5-0 leagues report!) and that is very frustrated to me, bacause i relly enjoy the deck for its unique concept and for skill demand playstyle. What are the main problems for deck? I think control archetypes and chalice. And, unfortunetely, control decks and chalice decks are very popular nowdays both in online and paper Magic tournaments. To solve those problems we need to adapt not sideboard but mainboard to fight with our nightmares. What to do exactly? What are you thoughts? I would like to change some cards and will test changes in near future.

To beat control:

1) Maindeck 2 copies of Bitterblossom. Yeah, this card can be very blank and garbage in late game, when we are at 5 hp or so, but with all others substitutions Bitterblossom can become a very strong options in almost every game's stagies. What are these substitutions? They include the cutting some pieces of our own damage (reanimates and 1 copy of Street Wraith) to become more resistence to burn spells, combat demage and, of course, to Bitteblossom's damage.

2) Throwing away one copy of Force of Will and replacing Denials with Hymns. I hate FoW. It is so painfull, clumsy and stupid card. Sure, it saved my life sometimes against fast combo decks, but i guess that we are very favored against fast combo even without playset of FoW. In fair matches FoW is just a "lose an advantage" card. i better unclude another removal spell or threat instead of that card.

To beat a chalice:

1) Two copies of Reaninmate are out. My main idea of fighting the chalice strategies is decrease the amount of 1 cmc spells and replace those cards by new 2 and 3 cmc threats like Bitterblossom and True-Name Skill and Hymns. Also i would include in the maindeck 1 copy of diabolic edict to feel more comfortable against opponent's TNN and Marit Lage. Why Reanimates? Because i do not find these cards super usefull in current metageme. Strom and Depths laugh at reanimate, SnS is too fast and 4 of 8 its creatures you will not be able to reanimate. BR reanimator? Ok, but only if you survive his fast twist, plus there are not a lot of Reanimators nowdays. Against Miracles reanimte is a pretty dead card, against grixis very ok, but what about TNN and Bitteblossom instead of reanimating Death's Shadow into Snap+removal?

In conclusion:

Out: 1 Street Wraith, 1 Fow, 2 Reanimate, 2 Denial (pretty questionable)
In: 1 TNN, 1 Diabolic Edict, 2 Hymn to Tourach (instead of denial's), 2 Bitterblossom.

I hope that the deck will become more competiteve in current meta, yes by loosing it's explosivness, but obtaining more stability. I want to dedicate a December to test new build of favourite deck. Your thoughts?

aedrew
12-03-2018, 12:25 PM
I'll add some thoughts:

Bitterblossom
I haven't specifically tested this in Shadow and I know it has been in the sideboard of some well-placing lists, but I am unimpressed with this card. I have been testing it in non-Shadow UB Delver and find it underwhelming. I usually board it out against combo and have not had it be great against the two premier control decks of Grixis and Miracles. Miracles has sweepers, Council's Judgment, and Disenchant. Grixis can stave it off with Liliana, the Last Hope or just race it with Bolt-Snap-Bolt (two things I have actually lost to after resolving Bitterblossom). I often find the Faeries an inadequate clock to pressure opposing Planeswakers as well. However, I'd like to hear opinions from those who have actually played it in Shadow.

Hymn to Tourach
Obviously great versus reactive decks and most combo decks so can't argue with bringing it in the main. Especially since it is much easier to cast with Wasteland seeming less prevalent.

Reanimate
I agree that this has become less powerful lately. Now that opponents expect it, Reanimator can play around it by binning a guy and reanimating it in the same turn. I also feel that Grixis is packing more Edicts which can deal with a reanimated Street Wraith. The ceiling seems like it has gotten lower and the floor is do nothing.

Listlik
12-04-2018, 12:43 AM
Thank your for the reply. After some days of testing a new version i have found Bitteblossom is a pretty doubt option for the maindeck. Another card that i really want to try is Baleful Strix. I will play with two copies at the beginning.

Fox
12-04-2018, 07:24 AM
Doing things like incorporating Hymn, Strix, and Bitterblossom should start sounding like you're turning your deck into bad Grixis Jammy Jams. Add green, get Library x2 and you'll cut down on the auto-losses to Tundra. Structurally, this deck isn't ever going to have a great miracles matchup (unless heavier mana denial, like basic Plains killing with Trophy, is built around), but it should be fine vs Stoneblade.

Listlik
12-04-2018, 08:39 AM
Doing things like incorporating Hymn, Strix, and Bitterblossom should start sounding like you're turning your deck into bad Grixis Jammy Jams. Add green, get Library x2 and you'll cut down on the auto-losses to Tundra. Structurally, this deck isn't ever going to have a great miracles matchup (unless heavier mana denial, like basic Plains killing with Trophy, is built around), but it should be fine vs Stoneblade.

The third colour is an option, but i do not feel comfortable with BUG variant and want to concentrate my efforts on upgrading classic UB Shadow.

IamHANDSOME
12-04-2018, 11:34 AM
honestly adding a third color to Shadow is not a problem at all since its allready playing only dual lands in its Ub version and you die to Blood Moon anyway. I found that playing 4 Watery Grave, 1 Island and 1 Swamp the best way because you have a lprotection from Wastelands, Blood Moon and B2B and also give the deck a little more stability overall for a little less explosiveness which I think is okay. I still think the positioning of Death's Shadow is very weird, its pretty good against combo decks but has troubles sometimes with fast decks AND control decks, also on the other hand it has this complete nuts draw on the play by just outclassing any other decks the way old Grixis Delver used to be with Shaman, Pyromancer and Probe. So its a super tuned Delver deck in which Delver is often not the best creature (again like old Grixis Delver) and on the other hand the deck is just sometimes poop by not finding threats and dying to Fatal Push, Snapcaster and Bolt.

My idea is to give the deck a little more reach but I dont know how. The best way of gaining reach would be some more resilient creature which is not affected by spot removal like TNN, maybe some additional game plan next to Shadow which is possible with Delver, Thoughtseize and Reanimate or just stomp over chump blockers with Trample through a Berserk or maybe Temur Battle Rage. Also Lightning Bolt is a card which would suit perfectly into the deck but would make the manabase much more vulnerable. But the deck feels extremely underpowered to a resolved TNN, Bitterblossom or YP which allready generated 3-4 tokens and there needs to be a way to fight that imho.

Listlik
12-04-2018, 05:48 PM
I found that playing 4 Watery Grave, 1 Island and 1 Swamp the best way

Agree. From the beginning i play with 2 basics, 3 graves, 3 wasteland and 8 (recently 7) fetch lands. I feel myself ok without U seas.

Lord Darkview
12-05-2018, 07:03 AM
Miracles and Chalice decks are always going to be hard to beat. If you want to focus on these, splashing green is the best way: it gives Library and Decay. The nearest substitutes without splashing are Bitterblossom and Bomb, which are good but not in the same league.

As an alternative, Ben Friedman has been advocating new design with additional control elements over Delver. (http://www.starcitygames.com/articles/38050_Standard-Modern-Legacy-My-Honest-SCG-CON-Deck-Endorsements.html) I'm not crazy about this plan, but it is likely a lot stronger against heavy control decks and Chalice. In exchange, it probably gives up points versus Tempo decks, light control decks (DnT/Maverick), and combo (due to the lack of pressure), but these are all marginal to begin with (the former two being very difficult to beat without heavy sideboarding, the last being almost trivial).

I wouldn't worry too much though. It looks like the absolute dominance of control has started the pendulum swinging back towards combo, and DSD is quite good against most of those decks. It might soon be the deck's time again.

Listlik
12-05-2018, 09:54 AM
As an alternative, [URL="http://www.starcitygames.com/articles/38050_Standard-Modern-Legacy-My-Honest-SCG-CON-Deck-Endorsements.html"]Ben Friedman has been advocating new design with additional control elements over Delver.

It is very intresting, baby Jace is one of my favorite card in Magic, but also it is very questionable and debatable. Time will tell the truth about a power of including Jace and some other changes, but i do not believe in his build.


I wouldn't worry too much though. It looks like the absolute dominance of control has started the pendulum swinging back towards combo, and DSD is quite good against most of those decks. It might soon be the deck's time again.

Actually a meta is full of combo decks for some time already, and there are not a lot of DS decks beating combo during the period of combo rise (in online and paper). I think players are sceptical about the deck. They choose Grixis delver, Rug or UR to be their main tempo option, leaving ds a role of a bad delver deck, which popularity was determined by its cheapness.

aedrew
12-17-2018, 11:51 AM
Made it to the ChannelFireball 4k this weekend:


Round 1 v. ANT (CyrusCG) (0-2)
Game 1: Spoiler alert: Cyrus is good at ANT. I have a good hand with two Thoughtseize into double Shadow, and quickly threaten lethal but Cyrus untaps and uses LED for blue to dig with a handful of cantrips and finds what he needs. Game over.
Game 2: I have a decent hand with Delver, Daze, and Surgical. Cyrus plays turn 1 Preordain, which I aggressively Daze. Turns out he just needed it out of his hand and goes Lotus Petal, LED, Ritual, tutor for Empty and make 14 Goblins. I need to top deck EE now. I do not. Game over.
-1 Death’s Shadow, -2 Fatal Push, -2 Dismember, -2 Reanimate
+3 Surgical Extraction (maybe too many), +1 Nihil Spellbomb, +2 Hymn to Tourach, +1 Engineered Explosives

Round 2 v. Lands (2-0)
Game 1: I am pretty effectively able to keep applying pressure and use Wasteland to keep pushing his Marit Lage out a turn until I can present lethal.
Game 2: Similar to Game 1 I apply good pressure but this time I also have surgical for Depths and then a Spellbomb to prevent him from Loaming back a Maze. The Dismember I left in comes in handy and lets me get a tracker out of the way.
-1 Dismember, -1 Thoughtseize, -2 Fatal Push, -2 Reanimate
+3 Surgical Extraction, +1 Nihil Spellbomb, +1 Diabolic Edict, +1 Engineered Explosives

Round 3 v. Jeskai Legends (2-0)
Game 1: I apply enough pressure and disruption to win before he gets his more powerful cards online. He almost claws back with a clutch Supreme Verdict, but he is at 1 and I can Reanimate a Delver for lethal.
Game 2: I engineer a resolved Liliana, the Last Hope and start going heavy on the creature recursion to apply pressure while he has a sort of slow hand.
-2 Fatal Push, -2 Reanimate
+2 Liliana, the Last Hope, +2 Hymn to Tourach

Round 4 v. UW Delver (2-0)
Game 1: A very intense game of back and forth where the advantage swung between us like 20 times. Eventually I draw enough threats in a row to pressure him enough so that he has to keep chumping with SFM and can’t really use his powerful equipment.
Game 2: I engineer a turn where I resolve Liliana, the Last Hope on an empty board and start ticking up. He can’t find an answer in time and even though he has wasted me off any land at this point, the emblem prompts a concession.
-2 Daze, -1 Thoughtseize
+2 Liliana, the Last Hope, +1 Diabolic Edict

Round 5 v. UR Delver (1-1-1)
Game 1: I manage to keep my lie high enough and have enough countermagic to not die to burn and my bigger creatures just get there.
Game 2: A very close game where he has me at 6 or 7 with a flipped Delver. I figure out a line where I can Reanimate his Delver, take one hit and go to 3, then ensure my Reanimated Delver flips with countermagic back up all while beating in with Angler, almost ensuring the win. Unfortunately, this is the one Delver flip I miss all tournament (at least that I notice) and I speed through to draw step and throw away the game.
Game 3: I am pretty far ahead but don’t have countermagic for Bridge. I have no out to it but leave my Delvers unflipped and hope he gets stuck with a Force of Will or some other uncastable card in hand. I have Liliana to control the board and end up drawing a lot of countermagic to fend off his burn. However, neither of us get there and it goes to a draw.
-2 Thoughtseize, -2 Street Wraith
+2 Hymn to Tourach, +1 Engineered Explosives (wish it was Ratchet Bomb), +1 Diabolic Edict

Round 6 v. ANT (2-0)
Game 1: Double Thoughtseize and quick clock work this time.
Game 2: I Thoughtseize and see a hand of two Brainstorm, lands, and a Cabal Ritual. I take one Brainstorm. I then Force the second Brainstorm into Hymn and he is at one or two cards. Angler then closes it out.
-2 Fatal Push, -2 Dismember, -2 Reanimate
+2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Nihil Spellbomb, +2 Hymn to Tourach, +1 Engineered Explosives

Round 7 v. Moon Stompy (0-2)
You can watch the match here (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/350006738?time=6h55m00s).
This is a potential win and in to top 8 depending on breakers against EJ (no relation).
Game 1: At the time I didn’t know what he was on and I snap Daze his turn 1 Chalice, which he has the SSG to pay for. I then Force the Chalice. In retrospect, and especially if I knew he was on Moon, I should have just let Chalice resolve. Delver plus Ancient Tomb might have got there if I had Force backup. Still, hard to beat all those Bridges and Chandras and Chalices. Note, originally I was playing to the long shot of wasting him down to 2 mana and trapping cards in his hand to win through Bridge but he drew plenty of mana.
Game 2: I make a pretty bad error of forgetting in the moment that Proliferate deals with multiple Chalices and waste a Force on the seconds one. After that, I just don’t have enough cards to deal with all his must-answer cards. Note, I did have 2 Dismember in the deck as an out to Magus. This is a bad match up, but doesn’t feel unwinnable if I played a better or got luckier. Unfortunately, my opponent just misses top 8 on breakers.
-2 Fatal Push, -2 Reanimate, -1 Preordain
+2 Throne of Geth, +1 Engineered Explosives (wish this and Throne were Ratchet Bombs), +2 Hymn to Tourach

I still managed to cash and had a good time. Thanks to CFB for running a good tournament and streaming it. Happy to see a legacy event reach capacity despite all the doom and gloom about the format and paper magic lately.

eldub
12-19-2018, 09:17 PM
Great write-up, thanks aedrew. I honestly dread the red prison matchups, I seem to be on the losing end of a 3 mana permanent every game. The Eldrazi versions are no cakewalk either. Here's what I've been playing with lately:

Threats (12)
4 Delver
4 Death’s Shadow
3 Gurmag Angler
1 True-Name Nemesis

Disruption (16)
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Stubborn Denial
3 Dismember
4 Thoughtseize

Velocity (14)
4 Street Wraith
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain

Manabase (18)
9 Assorted Fetches
3 Watery Grave
2 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

26 Instant/Sorc
24+1 Blue Cards

Sideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Reanimate
1 Hydroblast
1 Winter Orb
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Lili, Last Hope
1 Toxic Deluge

This version plays decently through Chalice with both removal and threats at 2/3+ cmc. The removal count is really low at 3, but you can often outsize/race other decks playing to the board. Dismember has been excellent and the ability to cast it off Wasteland comes up a surprising amount for me. The 3 edicts in the side let you interact with anything going way over the top (marit lage, griselbrand). I was playing 2 Flusterstorm for a while but I honestly just prefer to TS+Hymn people proactively and try to end the game.

I like a lot of what Ben Friedman was doing with his Delver-less version, but I love flipping some Delvers so I don't see that changing anytime soon. It also puts your blue card count awkwardly low for FoW (21?). Anyway, nice to see a little discussion on the archetype at least.

Fallen_Empire
12-26-2018, 02:33 PM
I'm considering brewing up a list that runs copies of hunted horror and toxic deluge main instead of delver & street wraith. Has anyone else been down this path?

kombatkiwi
12-30-2018, 10:21 AM
I'm considering brewing up a list that runs copies of hunted horror and toxic deluge main instead of delver & street wraith. Has anyone else been down this path?

Is this a troll? If you don't get exactly deluge then you can't kill the Centaurs so nothing can attack (Horror AND Shadows AND Anglers), nothing of yours can block or target them, so you're in a very awkward spot if your opponent wants to get aggressive, and you wouldn't even have Delver to fly over them

I played Shadow for the first time this weekend

First event

4 Delver
4 Shadow
2 Tombstalker
4 Wraith

2 Reanimate
2 Hymn
4 TS
4 BS
4 FOW
4 Ponder
4 Daze
2 Dismember
1 Push
1 Darkblast

2 Sea
4 Grave
8 Fetchlands
4 Wasteland

SB
1 Lili
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Bitterblossom
1 Winter Orb
1 TNN
2 Surgical
1 Cage
1 Null Rod
2 Marsh Casualties
1 Dread of Night
2 Ratchet Bomb

R1 Loss for turning up late (whoops)
R2 2-0 Depths
R3 0-2 Miracles
R4 1-2 Miracles

Second Event
Maindeck -1 Wasteland +1 Hymn
Sideboard -1 Marsh Casualties -1 TNN -1 Worb +1 Lili +1 Flusterstorm +1 Unmoored Ego

R1 2-0 UW Delver-Blade
R2 2-1 Miracles
R3 0-2 Miracles
R4 0-2 LED Dredge

As a long-time RUG Delver player it was very interesting to get a feel of playing this deck:

1. You don't have sticky threats (Goose) and you replace a reactive card (Stifle) with proactive cards that become much worse as the game progresses (discard spells). This means that Shadow plays much more like an aggro deck and generally wants to keep its foot on the gas starting from turn 1. Overall I would say that Shadow seems much easier to play than RUG for this reason, because your role is generally inflexible and you have fewer decisions to make in that regard. (Note that this doesn't imply at all that RUG is better than Shadow if both decks are played optimally).

2. Having access to hard-removal spells (specifically edicts) is a huge boon. Facing down a resolved TNN it's very hard to win as RUG but with Diabolic in your deck you can just untap and kill it. This means you can afford to be a bit more 'loose' both in terms of gameplay decisions and sideboarding (e.g. with these additional ways to deal with resolved permanents you can be more confident in boarding FoW out, which is something you want to do in post SB games vs fair decks anyway because you don't want to be 2-for-1ing yourself).

3. "ThOuGhTsEiZe IsN't A tEmPo CaRd" is true in the strictest sense but there are many times where e.g. you Thoughtseize their ponder and they just have to pass turn 1 after playing a land, so you functionally countered their ponder and got info on their whole hand. Not having any counters that cost mana is great because you never have to decide whether to leave up mana or tap out for a cantrip/discard. This isn't just 'training wheels', it's a significant tactical advantage

4. In RUG vs the fair/control decks you wanted to play Winter Orb because the fair decks were too resilient for you to stop them from getting to the lategame, so you needed some way to strangle your opponent's mana so your late-drawn dazes and pierces were still live. When you have black mana in your deck Hymn to Tourach can fill this role because the straight 2-for-1 is a significant resource tax that either strips their spells or hits their lands: together with the pressure that this deck can pump out (foot on the gas) it can force your opponent to play into your Dazes. RUG doesn't have any card that can 2-for-1 the opp by hitting their resources (only Loam, arguably, which isn't even that good vs Miracles anyway) so that deck doesn't have this angle. I therefore think winter orb is probably not the correct fit for Shadow because Thoughtseize and orb are applying pressure from 2 different directions. (I.e. what's the use in your opponents' lands not untapping if they don't have spells in hand to cast). I think the most effective strategy is to focus on burning all their cards away. This seems like it lines up badly vs AK but I think you can play around that with Surgical

5. Tombstalker is much better when you replace Stub with Hymn because A) It's hard to have 3 mana to pay BB for Tombstalker and leave U up for Stub B) Playing Tombstalker as your only BB spell (with Stub instead of Hymn) is awkward because you are raising your curve up for only a couple of cards which means it's hard to make in-game evaluations about how important your lands are. "I'm an efficient Delver deck which can play on 1 mana, oh no wait now I want 3 lands so I can resolve Tombstalker through a Daze." I noticed this problem with RUG a lot in the builds that played 1 or 2 TNN maindeck as the only 3 drop. When you have 2 Tombstalker and 3 Hymn you have a 'lower-variance-manacurve' and can more reliably plan on casting BB spells, and resolve your cantrips/wastelands accordingly. (Tombstalker might still not have enough upside over Angler to be correct regardless, but I think this point is worth explaining).

6. I agree with the arguments put forward by Friedman et al. that this deck doesn't want all 4 Wastelands. I think the swap I made for tournament #2 was good and would be happy playing this maindeck again.

7. Liliana is a very nice swiss army knife in the SB and I definitely think I want 2. At this point I think a confident SB would be something like
2 Surgical
2 Lili
2 Edict
2 Bomb
1 Bitterblossom
1 Cage
The rest feels more flexible and I would want to test the different matchups more to get a better idea of the kind of effects that I want.
The deck is very fun to play and I am looking forward to registering it again

JackaBo
12-30-2018, 02:34 PM
Nice write up KombatKiwi. I also enjoyed testning this deck. It’s a different kind of delver deck, but i like the ’almost burn deck approach’.

eldub
12-31-2018, 08:13 PM
Great write up, thanks. I’ve been playing a ton of leagues online in the hopes of finding a mix of disruption I like. I really like Dismember, to the point where I am now playing 4. I also have been unimpressed with Stubborn Denial, I feel like everyone expects it now that the decklists are so known, I’ve been much happier with good ol Spell Pierce. I’ve lost to two things mainly: 1) Marit Lage & 2) Swords to Plowshares (+Snap). Bitterblossom has not played well, you take too much damage that you just die when you stall.

More to come here if I can snap off some 5-0s with a solid config.

IamHANDSOME
01-02-2019, 04:30 PM
Hello, I'm playing the deck now since PT25 online and buying it in paper. I have a question about Thoughtseize vs. Force of Will when boarding: Which one of these do you want to board out normally against control decks like GControl and Miracles? I often go down to 2 FoW against fair decks but thinking about cutting them entirely since I feel like having better board cards and also that Thoughtseize does a similar job. On the other hand I often like to board out 1 Thoughtseize when I board in 2 Hymn to Tourach simply because I don't want to draw to many discard spells late game...

Against which decks do you normally leave FoW and Thoughtseize in and which one of those do you want to see more often normally?

Maximus
01-04-2019, 07:04 PM
As a long-time RUG Delver player it was very interesting to get a feel of playing this deck:

First off, your write-up was great. I am a former Team America player (Delver / Tarmogoyf / Tomstalker version) and I think I share a lot of your viewpoints. That said I would like to bring an open discussion, agreement, or disagreement to some of these points:


1. You don't have sticky threats (Goose) and you replace a reactive card (Stifle) with proactive cards that become much worse as the game progresses (discard spells). This means that Shadow plays much more like an aggro deck and generally wants to keep its foot on the gas starting from turn 1. Overall I would say that Shadow seems much easier to play than RUG for this reason, because your role is generally inflexible and you have fewer decisions to make in that regard. (Note that this doesn't imply at all that RUG is better than Shadow if both decks are played optimally).

This is a REALLY good one-paragraph synopsis. In LSV's article, he explicitly says "Unless you know the opponent is on beatdown, aggressively fetch Graves. The idea is to play a turn-2 or -3 Shadow, so don’t be shy." I think it's easy to casually miss this point but it's important to keep in mind: you want to be killing the opponent. Traditional UR or RUG Delver is generally okay letting the game play out because all of your cards are good at reliably setting up 1-for-1 exchanges, usually with mana advantage, and then you're only playing 14 or 15 colored mana sources so you draw more action over X turns. Playing with discard, against good players with Stifle, or both (like I used to on BUG) significantly reduces your ability to play the long game like that. Green can offset that a bit with Sylvan Library but straight UB not so much. We really should be emphasizing the aggressive aspect of playing this deck properly.


3. "ThOuGhTsEiZe IsN't A tEmPo CaRd" is true in the strictest sense but there are many times where e.g. you Thoughtseize their ponder and they just have to pass turn 1 after playing a land, so you functionally countered their ponder and got info on their whole hand. Not having any counters that cost mana is great because you never have to decide whether to leave up mana or tap out for a cantrip/discard. This isn't just 'training wheels', it's a significant tactical advantage

This is another great point but I would like to add to it a bit. This deck's focus on aggression over standard Delver style aggro-control means that we aren't really trying to control the game state in the same way. We still want to be using Thoughtseize and Force to be protecting our threats most of the time so that's the same, but it's more common to let things go and sandbag counters to try to kill the opponent through some things. Daze is a bit of an exception, where if you have a threat on the table it's usually good value to jam Daze just because the disruption is so much better behind a clock.

Side note, it's usually better to NOT try to mana screw the opponent with your discard spells. Like if you Hymn them and it happens, yeah sure. But you will win more games in the long term by playing tight and taking good value cards rather than flipping the coin for an easy win.


I therefore think winter orb is probably not the correct fit for Shadow because Thoughtseize and orb are applying pressure from 2 different directions. (I.e. what's the use in your opponents' lands not untapping if they don't have spells in hand to cast). I think the most effective strategy is to focus on burning all their cards away. This seems like it lines up badly vs AK but I think you can play around that with Surgical

While they might be playing from opposite directions, I think it might be okay anyway? My current stance is that Orb slows down whatever method Miracles uses to see a ton of cards over the course of the game. A lot of the time, Miracles is just trying to get the game to a lock to find the win button and press it. Orb slows down both their ability to kill opposing tempo and their ability to find the wincon. Thoughtseize helps with this somewhat- you just take whatever cards actually get in your way (usually Swords or Force) and then kill them. I agree that there's some conflict, but it's still a reasonable plan. It's even better now that both Ponder and AK builds are increasingly common.


"I'm an efficient Delver deck which can play on 1 mana, oh no wait now I want 3 lands so I can resolve Tombstalker through a Daze."

There's actually an even better reason (although yours are great too). A ton of our best pressure plays involve casting two spells of 0 or 1 CMC in the same turn for blow-outs on turns 2-4. So this would look like:
- Brainstorm / Ponder / Thoughtseize / Inquisition / Fatal Push / Dismember -> Angler / Shadow
- Angler / Shadow / Reanimate Wraith -> Wasteland / Force / Daze
- Dismember / Fatal Push / Thoughtseize / Inquisition -> Reanimate_Your_Card_Lulz
- Delver -> Ponder (classic)
- You get the idea. This entire deck is fucking full of these reversal plays

Hymn / Tombstalker make that REALLY hard to do turn 2-3, even if you're willing to drop an extra land. Like yeah those cards are powerful but jamming two almost-as-powerful spells in the same turn is what gives the "hee haw" hands that Delver decks are known for (especially this one). I really wanted Tombstalker to work in this deck because it's one of my favorite cards of all time, but Angler is just SO much more aggressive in the larger context of solid technical play.

Again, I loved this write-up and it was full of good information. But I also wanted to add to it to maybe start some discussion as well.

kombatkiwi
01-07-2019, 12:41 AM
Hi, thanks for the reply

1. "Side note, it's usually better to NOT try to mana screw the opponent with your discard spells" I'm not sure if this is a direct response to my suggestion that I sometimes Thoughtseize my opponent's Ponder, but to address this, I'm not necessarily only trying to stop my opponent finding their second land. It might be the case that I look at their hand and they already have lands in hand, but I have Fatal Push for their SFM and Daze for their TNN so taking Ponder is the best play because Ponder is the most threatening card in their hand. The fact that it makes them waste mana on turn 1 is a side-benefit.

2. "While they might be playing from opposite directions, I think it might be okay anyway?" Yeah, I could see that. I assume you meant "PORTENT and ak builds" because it's not like there is any miracles deck not playing Ponder

3. "There's actually an even better reason (although yours are great too). A ton of our best pressure plays involve casting two spells of 0 or 1 CMC in the same turn for blow-outs" I think you are placing at least some unwarranted arbitrary value on casting multiple spells in the same turn. For example you list Delver -> Ponder. Of course it's good to be spending all your mana in 1 turn but if you had some hypothetical creature: "UU: 3/2 Flying, when this ETB Ponder", that would obviously be better than casting 1 Delver and 1 Ponder (assuming no counterspells). So, would "UU: 3/2 Flying, when this ETB draw a card" be better than Delver + Ponder? Probably. (Unless you place an extremely low value on card advantage). The point is that there is some power level of 2 mana spells that is sufficient to overcome the drawback of costing 1 more mana. Would "BB: Pay 4 life look at opp's hand and discard 2 nonland cards" be better than Thoughtseize + Thoughtseize? Yes. You wouldn't cut all (or any) Thoughtseize for this hypothetical 2-mana card because you do need a certain density of 1 drops for curve reasons, but obviously there are going to be points in the game where you have 2 mana available and then this BB card would be better than two 1-mana cards, and you might play it in some flex slot in the deck. Is BB: Opp discards 2 random cards better than Thoughtseize + Thoughtseize, or Thoughtseize + Ponder etc? Maybe. At some points, definitely yes. So this is the kind of discussion that needs to take place rather than just "Hurr durr all spells must cost 1 mana"

I acknowledge that Angler vs Stalker is a much bigger hurdle than Hymn vs any 1-mana spell, because paying 1 extra mana for Stalker doesn't give you an extra card worth of value, but there is some kind of benefit to Stalker over Angler and this can be factored in similarly. (At the moment I would agree that Angler is probably better and Stalker only makes sense as a meta call vs TNNs)

aedrew
01-11-2019, 09:15 PM
I updated the OP a little bit today:

Added a link to the discord.
Added an entry for Bitterblossom
Added a link to Mengucci's talk on UB Shadow (https://www.channelfireball.com/videos/andrea-mengucci-talks-legacy-deaths-shadow/)

kombatkiwi
01-13-2019, 06:58 AM
Mini Report
4 Delver
4 Wraith
4 Shadow
2 Tombstalker

2 Reanimate
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn
2 Dismember
1 Push
1 Darkblast

3 Wasteland
4 Grave
8 Fetchlands
2 Underground Sea

3 Surgical
2 Liliana
2 Edict
2 Bomb
1 Cage
1 BB
1 Casualties
1 Dread of Night
1 Flusterstorm
1 Null Rod

1-2 Eldrazi Post
2-1 Elves
2-0 Jund

DON/Fluster/NullRod seem flexible but I think I like the rest of it.
Fluster should at least be pierce to have another anti-permanent card (Trini, Chalice, Moon, etc)

coff33bit
01-16-2019, 12:09 PM
I just recently switched to this deck from UR Delver, as I really like tempo decks, from my understanding UB is better than UR, and I had all the cards for it (minus the U-seas). My question is, until I can acquire the dual lands I am running the following:
1 island
1 swamp
4 Watery Grave
4 Polluted Delta
2 blue fetches
2 black fetches
4 Wasteland

I see many lists running a Marsh Casualties in the sideboard, how often do you ever actually cast with kicker? My thought is that with my manabase, BB would likely present more of a challenge to cast this on time, then 5 mana to kick it, so I'm wondering if Shrivel would be an acceptable substitute or if I should run Toxic Deluge instead? Or just stick to Marsh Casualties?

Thoughts?

kombatkiwi
01-17-2019, 10:55 AM
I just recently switched to this deck from UR Delver, as I really like tempo decks, from my understanding UB is better than UR, and I had all the cards for it (minus the U-seas). My question is, until I can acquire the dual lands I am running the following:
1 island
1 swamp
4 Watery Grave
4 Polluted Delta
2 blue fetches
2 black fetches
4 Wasteland

I see many lists running a Marsh Casualties in the sideboard, how often do you ever actually cast with kicker? My thought is that with my manabase, BB would likely present more of a challenge to cast this on time, then 5 mana to kick it, so I'm wondering if Shrivel would be an acceptable substitute or if I should run Toxic Deluge instead? Or just stick to Marsh Casualties?

Thoughts?

Yeah you never play it with kicker
It has the downside of killing your unflipped Delvers, and all your creatures hit for one less damage in the turn that you cast it
If you have basic island in your manabase then Shrivel or Deluge would be an acceptable switch if you are finding it difficult to get double black

coff33bit
01-17-2019, 05:30 PM
Yeah you never play it with kicker
It has the downside of killing your unflipped Delvers, and all your creatures hit for one less damage in the turn that you cast it
If you have basic island in your manabase then Shrivel or Deluge would be an acceptable switch if you are finding it difficult to get double black

As a follow-up question, I don't foresee being able to acquire both U-Seas at the same time. So for the upgrade path what would make the most sense?
1) -1 island, +1 u-sea
2) -1 swamp, +1 u-sea
3) -1 island, -1 swamp, +1 u-sea +1 watery grave
4) other

I'm thinking 1 would make the most sense, as I can still deploy my threats under a blood moon/B2B and wastelands. I often see the discussion about 2 u-seas or no u-seas and not just a singleton.

IamHANDSOME
01-17-2019, 06:08 PM
As a follow-up question, I don't foresee being able to acquire both U-Seas at the same time. So for the upgrade path what would make the most sense?
1) -1 island, +1 u-sea
2) -1 swamp, +1 u-sea
3) -1 island, -1 swamp, +1 u-sea +1 watery grave
4) other

I'm thinking 1 would make the most sense, as I can still deploy my threats under a blood moon/B2B and wastelands. I often see the discussion about 2 u-seas or no u-seas and not just a singleton.

1. you never play marsh casualties with kicker, like NEVER EVER and you only need -1/-1 so Casualties is completely fine.
2. I play 9 fetchlands, 3 Watery Grave, 1 Island and 1 Swamp. When I get to uprade to USseas I will go for 4 Grave 1 Usea and then -1 Grave +1 USea. 9 fetch and 3/2 is strictly the better combination and 1 Usea and 4 Watery Grave feels also better than Basics imho.

kombatkiwi
01-27-2019, 10:13 AM
Small report
Same maindeck as before (4 Grave 2 Sea 8 Fetches 3 Wasteland 2 Dismember 1 Push 1 Darkblast 2 Reanimate 3 Hymn 2 Tombstalker)
SB
2 Edict
2 Bomb
2 Liliana
2 Surgical
1 Cage
1 Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Dread of Night
1 Null Rod
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Bitterblossom

0-2 Turbo Depths
1-0 Bye
1-2 UW Stoneblade
2-0 Scapeshift Nic Fit

I still like the maindeck I think
I'm considering going up to a 3rd Edict because it's a good answer for both TNN and Marit Lage, both of which seem to be fairly problematic / annoying
The Null Rod is probably unnecessary

eldub
01-28-2019, 11:22 AM
Try a copy or two of Echoing Truth. Nice out to Marit Lage and problematic permanents that also pitches to force.

kombatkiwi
01-28-2019, 11:41 PM
Try a copy or two of Echoing Truth. Nice out to Marit Lage and problematic permanents that also pitches to force.

People have suggested bounce before but I'm not convinced I want it in any other match-up except Depths, so I think extra edict might be better overall

IamHANDSOME
01-29-2019, 06:42 AM
People have suggested bounce before but I'm not convinced I want it in any other match-up except Depths, so I think extra edict might be better overall

Iits actually a very flexible card. Planeswalker, Ensnaring Bridge, Dephts, some Enchantment, there are a lot of things you can bounce which can be crucial in the right moment. Because Shadow has this HUGE clock bouncing a card in the right moment can be quite powerful. I also play 1 Echoing Truth as my flex spot in my board and I bounced Dephts, 3 Arclight Phoenix and a bunch of Empty the Warrens tokens so far. The card is really good imho.

My sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Bitterblossom
2 Liliana, the last Hope
1 Echoing Truth
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Darkblast
1 Marsh Casualties
2 Ratchet Bomb

JackaBo
01-29-2019, 09:20 AM
Iits actually a very flexible card. Planeswalker, Ensnaring Bridge, Dephts, some Enchantment, there are a lot of things you can bounce which can be crucial in the right moment. Because Shadow has this HUGE clock bouncing a card in the right moment can be quite powerful. I also play 1 Echoing Truth as my flex spot in my board and I bounced Dephts, 3 Arclight Phoenix and a bunch of Empty the Warrens tokens so far. The card is really good imho.

My sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Bitterblossom
2 Liliana, the last Hope
1 Echoing Truth
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Darkblast
1 Marsh Casualties
2 Ratchet Bomb

Also cleans up goblins, elemental and monk tokens. Lets talk about darkblast instead. Is that card actually good enough?

eldub
01-29-2019, 10:29 AM
I wanted it to be, but I ran through 3-4 leagues and it was just too low impact to be eating my drawsteps every turn even in places like Elves where you'd want it. I've been much happier packing 2x Marsh Casualties.

Blink
01-29-2019, 12:52 PM
Dark blast is excellent against Strix based strategies which is one of the 4 strategies that can completely shut us down. (chalice, swords and blood moon being the others). It also powers out anglers as the card reads kill a x/1 and add three mana to your mana pool when angler is in your hand. It kills most of the creatures that really hinder our strategy notably Mom, Thalia, Wirewood Symbiote, Young Pyromancer and end-step Snap Caster. It also lets us win the angler and reality smasher battles. I have played Dark blast Main for the last 3 months and it has single handedly won countless games in a G control heavy meta.

kombatkiwi
02-02-2019, 10:23 AM
Short report
R1 2-0 RB Reanimator
R2 2-1 RB Reanimator
R3 0-2 Mono Red Sneak
R4 2-1 Grixis Control
R5 ID
Top8 2-1 Rw Goblins
Top4 2-1 Grixis Delver
Finals 0-2 Esper Stoneblade

Won a scrubland

4 Delver
4 Shadow
4 Wraith
2 Tombstalker

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force
4 Daze
2 Dismember
1 Push
1 Darkblast
3 Hymn
2 Reanimate

4 Grave
2 Sea
3 Waste
8 Fetchland

3 Edict
3 Surgical
2 Lili
2 Bomb
1 Blossom
1 Pierce
1 Fluster
1 Cage
1 Casualties

3 Edict seemed good

kombatkiwi
03-19-2019, 12:13 PM
Tried a list with JVP after I read Ben Friedman's thoughts on the deck
The argument about how early pressure / chip shots makes little sense in a deck with no burn and 5/5 and 10/10 finishers is quite convincing

2 Tombstalker
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4 Street Wraith
4 Death's Shadow

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Preordain
4 Thoughtseize
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Reanimate
2 Dismember
1 Fatal Push
1 Darkblast

4 Watery Grave
2 Underground Sea
8 Fetchlands
3 Wasteland

SB
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Infernal Contract
1 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Dread of Night

First Event (literally never cast a JVP before in my life I don't think)
2-1 UW Stoneblade
2-1 UR Delver
0-2 Chalice Post
2-0 Elves
Top 4 Concession (we split prizes already so my opponent went home)
Finals 0-2 Chalice Post (same guy) [I played really badly in the finals but it seems like a horrible matchup]

Second event
2-0 MonoB Reanimator (no depths)
2-1 Miracles
2-0 Enchantress (non-Wish build)

Maybe the dread of night can be the third bomb. The Flusterstorm is the other flex slot

Infernal contract seems nuts. I mis-sequenced against miracles and cast it on 3 which put me to 1 and disabled my FoW, but it would have still been way better than Bitterblossom in that spot. I also cast it against enchantress and it gave me enough fuel for FoW to stop Solitary Confinement from resolving.

So far this is looking like my #1 candidate for GP Niagara Falls

bluediamonds
03-31-2019, 08:07 AM
Positive experience taking out delvers for JVP etc

Having 3 edicts helps a lot against several matchups.

kombatkiwi
04-02-2019, 11:40 PM
After feeling a bit threat-light and noticing darkblast being a brick in a couple of games I'm going to swap the maindeck Darkblast with one of the SB Lilianas
I still think 3 Liliana in the 75 is too many and am going to keep the 1-1 split of Liliana and Contract in the sideboard

aedrew
04-16-2019, 10:03 AM
It looks like we'll get a few upgrades in War of the Spark

Liliana's Triumph (https://mythicspoiler.com/war/cards/lilianastriumph.html) should replace Diabolic Edict. Contentious Plans (https://mythicspoiler.com/war/cards/contentiousplan.html) might be a good sideboard card against Chalice, similar to Throne of Geth but replaces itself, flips Delver, and pitches to Force.

Speaking of anti-Chalice tech, I have been trying Vampire Hexmage. I like that it lines up well against Baleful Strix and can also sink a Planeswalker against UBx control.

pow22
04-28-2019, 08:59 AM
Hi all, I've been messing around a bit with UB Shadow online now that the London mull is legal. Agree with the Ben Friedman article about JVP being better than Delver in this kind of deck.

Current list:


4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Watery Grave
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Dark Ritual

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Preordain

4 Death's Shadow
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Gurmag Angler
1 Tombstalker

4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce

2 Fatal Push
1 Recoil
1 Dismember
1 Marsh Casualties

SB:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Echoing Truth
2 Flusterstorm
1 Dread of Night
1 Null Rod
1 Tsabo's Web
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Gloom
1 Infernal Contract


Some of the choices are a bit unconventional, but there's honestly some method behind the madness!:

- No Street Wraith. I've found the card underwhelming. Sure there's a floor on how bad a 2 life cycler can be, but it's so bad late-game when your life total is too low to reasonably cycle. The body is a bit underwhelming and the Reanimate 'combo' is unexciting unless you can follow it up with multiple Shadows. It also takes up a chunk of non-blue slots in the deck and I believe it's possible to prove mathematically that it never cycles into a land when you need it to, while always cycling into a land when you need gas.

- Four Hymn to Tourach. I was sick of not drawing Hymns vs Miracles and combo. The fine people of MtGO deserve to receive Tourach's blessing multiple times in a game of Magic IMHO.

- 16 black-producing lands to combo with Hymn to Tourach. Extra lands also help to offset the loss of 'free' life-loss from Street Wraith.

- Zero Wasteland since it does not cast Hymn to Tourach. Also, people are playing a lot of basic lands online at the moment.

- Main-deck Lilianas have been great -- a threat against control, removal spell vs creature decks, acceleration for delve fatties, digging for spells for JVP to cast.

- A fun-of Dark Ritual. I added this to an earlier build that only ran 15 lands figuring that it might be marginally better than the 16th land, but it's been pretty entertaining so I've kept it even after upping the land count. Turn one Lilly is obviously great vs a lot of decks, but even accelerating out a delve fatty can be good a lot of the time.

- Recoil is a bit of a pet card, but I think it's useful to have a main-deck answer to problematic permanents. Without Wasteland, stuff like Maze of Ith is a real pain. This list is also super-weak to Turbo Depths so it's handy to have a way to answer Marit Lage.

- I'm not 100% sure about the removal config. Main-deck Marsh Casualities feels excellent against a lot of decks. I've been going back and forth on 2 Push / 1 Dismember and 1 Push / 2 Dismember.

- Sideboard Tsabo's Web for Maze of Ith.

- Sideboard Echoing Truth for Leylines, Marit Lage, Chalices. EoT bounce their stuff, main-phase Hymn to Tourach never gets old.

- SB Infernal Contract probably came from kombatkiwi's post. It's been amazing for me. I love the Mirage version's flavour text. I love drawing cards. You know it's a good card when it has three skulls in the casting cost.

Anyway, I've been really enjoying this list so thought I'd share.

kombatkiwi
04-30-2019, 06:00 PM
I went 10-5 at GP Niagara Falls and came 94th (IIRC)

Chalice Post 2-1
Bant Foodchain 2-0
Grixis Delver 2-0
UR Delver 2-0
UW Blade 2-1
UW Blade 2-0
Grixis Control 0-2
Infect 0-2
UW Blade 2-0
Eldrazi Stompy 1-2
Enchantress 0-2
URb Delver 2-0
Chalice Post 2-1
Architect Merfolk 2-1
URb Delver 1-2

('URb Delver' seems mostly UR just with bitterblossom SB)

The match I lost vs Grixis Control I think I was playing a bit loose and the match vs Infect was just a punt. The final round I also could have maybe played a bit better but the Enchantress matchup was totally unwinnable and the 1-2 vs Eldrazi was close but I don't think there was anything I clearly should have done differently

List:

4 Death's Shadow
4 Street Wrath
2 Tombstalker
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Preordain
2 Reanimate
2 Dismember
1 Fatal Push
1 Liliana the Last Hope

4 Watery Grave
2 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
2 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Bloodstained Mire

SB
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Infernal Contract
1 Dread of Night
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Darkblast
1 Spell Pierce

Basically what I think about the JVP version compared to Delver is that:
- It's better against fair blue decks because it grinds better. This includes Stoneblade and Miracles, but probably also those random decks like Food Chain. I think overall it's also slightly better against Delver decks, but because you don't have your own cheap turn1 threats there are a slightly increased frequency of games where you get Delver/Daze/Wasted out
- It's much worse against every deck that is trying to prey on fair blue decks, because the easiest way to beat these decks is by aggroing them out with Delver/Daze/Waste before they can lock your mana or reach a lategame that goes over the top of Hymn/Jace. If your opponent has Thalia or Eye of Ugin or Blood Moon in their deck then Delver is much better than JVP
- The Delver version is probably slightly better against combo but this is negligible-ish because Jace can also be quite strong vs combo

It might be possible to play a hybrid Wrapter/Friedman Hymn + Delver version, which I have had some success with in the past, which gives you some of the benefits of both setups

The only card from the GP 75 I might change (assuming I still want to play JVP) is the 2nd reanimate in the maindeck (possibly to the 4th Hymn or 4th waste depending on what meta you are expecting, but I'm not sure what I would change this to or if I even want to change it at all) and the Toxic Deluge in the SB (to a cheaper removal spell like Marsh Casualties, 2nd Darkblast, Push etc to improve the matchup against Delver and DNT). [edit: and of course Diabolic Edict becomes Liliana's Triumph]

aedrew
07-30-2019, 09:36 PM
Is this deck dead? Is this thread dead? Is the Source dead? No.

Is took Death’s Shadow to a local 3K. Trying Snuff Out over Dismember since there are more non-black creatures I want to remove lately. In the sideboard, trying out Plague Engineer as well as Force of Negation in the slots I would normally dedicate to answers to Chalice of the Void.

4 Death’s Shadow
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Street Wraith
2 Gurmag Angler
2 Reanimate
3 Ponder
1 Preordain
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Stubborn Denial
4 Thoughtseize
2 Fatal Push
2 Snuff Out
4 Wasteland
3 Watery Grave
2 Underground Sea
9 Fetchlands

2 Force of Negation
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Dread of Night
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Plague Engineer
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Nihil Spellbomb

Round 1 v. Wrenn Pile
I am able to take advantage of opponent’s clunkiness with some good aggro draws involving reanimated Street Wraiths. 2-0.

Round 2 v. Miracles
Despite opponent receiving a game loss for showing up late, we can’t finish 2 games. I am way ahead game 3, but my Delvers just don’t flip and can’t close it out in time.
1-1.

Round 3 v. Slow Depths
I find the right interaction at the right times with help from Thoughtseize and cantrips, so Wasteland and Force of Will prevent opponent from doing much. 2-0.

Round 4 v. Snow Wrenn Pile
With a creature-heavy hand, I push lethal through two Baleful Strixes game 1. Game 2, opponent gets stuck on two mana long enough for me to close it out. 2-0.

Round 5 v. Bomberman
I lose game 1 to turn-one Chalice. Game 2 plays out normally and I ride disruption, a good Hymn, and creatures to victory. Game 3 is quite interesting. Opponent goes all in on a turn-one Mystic Forge. I cycle Street Wraith into Force of Negation to counter it, but I don’t have a threat for a while and opponent resolves Chalice on 1. I already spent my Engineered Explosives to clear a Ballista and Mox, so it is there for good, but I resolve a Plague Engineer on Monk with Wasteland and Forces to control the game. Plague Engineer does all 20. 2-1.

Round 6 v. Maverick
Both games, opponent aggressively Wastelands me. Both games, I find the lands to recover and Wasteland back. Opponent does not recover in time. 2-0.

Round 7 ID into top 8

Quarters opponent does not show up.

Semis v. 4c “Loam”
This match was streamed. You can watch CFB Game Center’s VOD on twitch. Game 1 I win through early Chalice on 1 with reanimated Street Wraith, Gurmag Angler, and Snuff Out. Game 2, I am ahead, but go too low, forgetting about Punishing Fire. Oops. Game 3, I keep in the hopes that I can Thoughtseize away his Chalice. Unfortunately, it wasn’t in hand but on the top of the deck. From there, opponent runs away with the game with Wrenn and Liliana of the Veil. I didn’t really have a sideboard plan for this match, and in retrospect, wish I kept more of my main deck intact.

Overall, I think Snuff Out performed well. I cut it versus Strix decks anyway and good against Knights even though can’t get Dark Confident versus Loam. Plague Engineer was also great as a proactive answer to 1/1s. Force of Negation was alright, but since 3 out of 4 of my game losses were to Chalice, I think I might go back to a stronger anti-Chalice card like Contentious Plan.

joaquin
07-31-2019, 11:24 PM
How have you been liking contentious plans? I have been really curious as to how that card is working for people.

I am actually thinking of making this deck in legacy and turning my legacy goblins deck into a modern deck. How has the deck been performing as a whole for you? Haven't seen many people playing this deck recently.

The cool thing about shadow decks is that you can really make any color combo you want and they all play very differently. Could splash green for sylvan library, berserk, and traverse the ulvenwald, etc.

aedrew
08-01-2019, 10:19 AM
How have you been liking contentious plans? I have been really curious as to how that card is working for people.

I am actually thinking of making this deck in legacy and turning my legacy goblins deck into a modern deck. How has the deck been performing as a whole for you? Haven't seen many people playing this deck recently.


I have enjoyed Contentious Plan as a focused answer to Chalice. I usually feel so happy when I have it to tick a Chalice to 2 that I don't even think about the extra card, then I look at my hand with a new card and think, "oh yeah, I get that too." It just depends on how much you want for Chalice alone as it really doesn't have other utility.

I think the deck takes a hit because the spell-based combo decks are less popular while game-winning permanents that UB has a though time answering are abundant (Teferi, Bridge, Chalice, Wrenn + Wasteland, Karn, etc.). You just have to hope to get under these. When URx delver decks were gaining in popularity recently, I thought the deck felt quite good, as our mana-base and creatures are just better than theirs.

EDIT: One more thing on Contentious Plan. I've had one other use for it that has actually been nice: tick Blast Zone to 2 to save my creatures.

kombatkiwi
08-02-2019, 12:13 AM
I have enjoyed Contentious Plan as a focused answer to Chalice. I usually feel so happy when I have it to tick a Chalice to 2 that I don't even think about the extra card, then I look at my hand with a new card and think, "oh yeah, I get that too." It just depends on how much you want for Chalice alone as it really doesn't have other utility.

I think the deck takes a hit because the spell-based combo decks are less popular while game-winning permanents that UB has a though time answering are abundant (Teferi, Bridge, Chalice, Wrenn + Wasteland, Karn, etc.). You just have to hope to get under these. When URx delver decks were gaining in popularity recently, I thought the deck felt quite good, as our mana-base and creatures are just better than theirs.

EDIT: One more thing on Contentious Plan. I've had one other use for it that has actually been nice: tick Blast Zone to 2 to save my creatures.

If you're playing the no-2-drop delver version of the deck then Contentious Plan seems good.
If you're playing the more controlling version of the deck with hymn/JVP then it obviously won't work though (unless you can somehow find a SB map for chalice decks where you board them all out)

Izor
08-05-2019, 06:42 AM
Agree with the above. Contentious Plans is a very good focused answer to Chalice, but obviously a much worse card overall that doesn't have any other applications really. I've been liking a split between the two, like 1-2 or 2-1. That is all for the Delver list, not the JVP list.

Speaking of which, I'd been following the Delver vs JVP discussion a little back then and in my opinion you can't say one is better than the other. They're fundamentally different decks. The former is in the first place a Delver deck that differentiates itself from other Delver deck by sticking to only two colors and playing the Shadow/Wraith/Reanimate package alongside Anglers as its creatures number 5-12. That gives it a niche in the metagame for having a slightly more stable mana base, having arguably the best matchup against spell-based combo out of all the Delver decks and having the edge in the Delver mirror because its creatures are bigger, while being worse against most control strategies, especially those that play Plows.

The JVP list definitely plays the more powerful cards, but that can be said about any midrange or control deck in Legacy when compared with any Delver deck. My fear is that, quite frankly, JVP is not a particularly good card in Legacy and any deck that plays it as its two-drop of choice should ask itself if that's because it's actually good or just because they don't have access to other options due to color restrictions. I haven't seen any deck with access to red, green or even white play JVP in a very long time. I admit I haven't tested the JVP Shadow list too much and when I played it it was good, but those 2 JVPs never stood out as particularly strong. Was it a viable deck? Yes. Would it be an even better deck with a third color and other two-drops over JVP? Quite possibly.

Fox
08-05-2019, 07:32 AM
JVP is the Snapcaster of Daze/Wasteland + lower land count strategies, allowing the trip to 3-4 mana with an untap step. It's rather harmonious alongside Delver, because there would be no way to really capitalize on the early game advantages of Daze/WL without Delver.

kombatkiwi
08-06-2019, 03:31 AM
JVP is the Snapcaster of Daze/Wasteland + lower land count strategies, allowing the trip to 3-4 mana with an untap step. It's rather harmonious alongside Delver, because there would be no way to really capitalize on the early game advantages of Daze/WL without Delver.

Well the argument is that the extra card advantage from JVP allows you to play more of an attrition game with Hymn/Thoughtseize flashbacks, and then you can ride to victory on the back of 1 Shadow/Angler rather than needing extra threats in the form of Delver to aggro people out. I think it's hard to construct a list with Delver AND JVP where the ratios of threats/cantrips/disruption/mana make sense


Agree with the above. Contentious Plans is a very good focused answer to Chalice, but obviously a much worse card overall that doesn't have any other applications really. I've been liking a split between the two, like 1-2 or 2-1. That is all for the Delver list, not the JVP list.

Speaking of which, I'd been following the Delver vs JVP discussion a little back then and in my opinion you can't say one is better than the other. They're fundamentally different decks. The former is in the first place a Delver deck that differentiates itself from other Delver deck by sticking to only two colors and playing the Shadow/Wraith/Reanimate package alongside Anglers as its creatures number 5-12. That gives it a niche in the metagame for having a slightly more stable mana base, having arguably the best matchup against spell-based combo out of all the Delver decks and having the edge in the Delver mirror because its creatures are bigger, while being worse against most control strategies, especially those that play Plows.

The JVP list definitely plays the more powerful cards, but that can be said about any midrange or control deck in Legacy when compared with any Delver deck. My fear is that, quite frankly, JVP is not a particularly good card in Legacy and any deck that plays it as its two-drop of choice should ask itself if that's because it's actually good or just because they don't have access to other options due to color restrictions. I haven't seen any deck with access to red, green or even white play JVP in a very long time. I admit I haven't tested the JVP Shadow list too much and when I played it it was good, but those 2 JVPs never stood out as particularly strong. Was it a viable deck? Yes. Would it be an even better deck with a third color and other two-drops over JVP? Quite possibly.

Just because they're different decks doesn't mean you can't say one is better than the other, you can say Sneak and Show is better than Spanish Inquisition just by looking at winrates, you don't need to assess how similar the decks are.

JVP is a lot like Dreadhorde Arcanist, the fundamental difference is that Dreadhorde Arcanist doesn't work with Hymn to Tourach. (Both because Hymn costs 2 so Arcanist can't target it and because Arcanist cost R so you would be a Grixis deck that needs at least URBB). You want to have Hymn in Shadow rather than e.g. Bolts because Hymn is more impactful as disruption and your threats are such heavy-hitters you don't need help to win matches by racing.

Or to put it another way, JVP shadow seems to have the exact combination of
a) Wanting to play the card Hymn to Tourach
b) Not wanting to have more than 2 lands
c) Space in the deck for a value 2drop

If you cut JVP then either
- You keep Hymn but you spend the value slot on another card in another colour (or Snapcasters) because nothing else exists in UB: to keep the manabase stable basics are needed and the curve skews higher so you end up with Grixis Control or some kind of Thief of Sanity deck
- You cut JVP for Dreadhorde Arcanist but now Hymn is awkward, so because you're playing Red now you replace them with Bolts and this cascade probably means that you end up with Grixis Delver
- You decide that you don't need a value 2drop and just go back to playing Delver Shadow, either you keep the Hymns or replace them with other disruption like Stubborn Denials

In terms of the actual play pattern of the card ("this is really good if you untap with it but otherwise costs 2 mana and dies easily") it's really not much different to Dreadhorde Arcanist at all. It can't flashback every single turn but it interacts better with other spells the deck wants to be playing anyway (Hymn, Dismember), the Loot is okay, pitches to FoW, etc. UR Delver doesn't want to play JVP because UR is a much more aggressive deck than Shadow and JVP is a much less aggressive card than Arcanist, also even if you argue Arcanist is abstractly a better card than JVP that deck is already in the right colour, so we accept this "worse" 2drop under the assumption that being able to play TS/Hymn is worth it

eldub
08-06-2019, 09:43 AM
The primary difference is Arcanist is generating mana. With JVP you still have to pay the cost. Flashing back a cantrip with Arcanist so you can make your third land drop and basically have 4 mana worth of spells cast in a turn is what makes it such a great tempo boost.

JVP is reasonable in shadow but not nearly as powerful as Arcanist honestly.

Izor
08-07-2019, 06:57 AM
I don't think the comparison is fair either, Arcanist is a significantly better card than JVP because it 1) virtually generates mana, 2) it works every turn unlike JVP who only flashbacks something once before needing to recharge and 3) actually wins the game on its own.

A zero mana Thoughtseize is likely to be the better turn 3 play than a 2 mana Hymn, so whenever you feel like pairing Arcanist with discard effects you can easily do that and play Grixis, maybe even with an Inquisition or two. Sure, Hymn is technically CA while flashing back a TS isn't, though the turn after you'll flashback another spell with Arcanist while JVP sits there shrinking a creature, so over time Arcanist actually generates more CA than Jace. There's exactly that one turn frame where Jace is technically up on CA, though as I said it's significantly behind on mana at the same time. Arcanist will also hit for 4 every turn in a UR(x) shell, so it will actually win the game instead of sitting around.

If the goal was to go bigger than Delver but stay under Grixis Control then sure, Delverless Shadow is a good deck. All I'm saying is that the Delver vs JVP as cards debate shouldn't be a thing. Delver is the backbone of traditional UB Shadow while JVP is more of a concession to the lack of a third color that would offer better two-drops in the new variant. The only other options are Snapcaster and Strix, and at that point you're probably close to just a worse Grixis Control.

I also didn't quite understand the point where Friedman said he and Firer were on the same basic strategies with his deck and that he liked his take on UW Delver. Firer played Delvers alongside midrange cards like SFM and he liked it because Delvers can eat the removals for SFM. Well didn't we have just exactly that same element in Delver Shadow and didn't he just decide against that concept himself?


Just because they're different decks doesn't mean you can't say one is better than the other, you can say Sneak and Show is better than Spanish Inquisition just by looking at winrates, you don't need to assess how similar the decks are.

Are there any results that back up the fact that JVP lists are objectively better? If you compare them to Sneak and Show vs Spanish Inquisition I'd expect to see JVPs in every major tournament top8/16.

kombatkiwi
08-08-2019, 12:10 AM
If the goal was to go bigger than Delver but stay under Grixis Control then sure, Delverless Shadow is a good deck... The only other options are Snapcaster and Strix, and at that point you're probably close to just a worse Grixis Control.
This is almost exactly what I said except "Delver is the backbone of traditional UB Shadow" is not a statement that has any value. "JVP is a concession to the lack of a third colour" yes this is essentially what I said, but this doesn't provide any info as to whether the Delver version or the JVP version is better.


I also didn't quite understand the point where Friedman said he and Firer were on the same basic strategies with his deck and that he liked his take on UW Delver. Firer played Delvers alongside midrange cards like SFM and he liked it because Delvers can eat the removals for SFM. Well didn't we have just exactly that same element in Delver Shadow and didn't he just decide against that concept himself?
I don't know this story and the way that you tell it is confusing (so many he-him it's difficult to figure out who thought what) but I dislike UW Delver for basically the same reason I don't like Delver in UB Shadow.


Are there any results that back up the fact that JVP lists are objectively better? If you compare them to Sneak and Show vs Spanish Inquisition I'd expect to see JVPs in every major tournament top8/16.
I wasn't trying to imply no-Delver is better than Delver to the same extent that SNS is better than Spanish Inquisition, just that the idea of "you can't say deck A is better than deck B if they are different strategies" is a bad way of approaching deck building/selection.

Fox
08-08-2019, 06:23 AM
There's a lot of things being mashed up. The main issue with this deck is that Delver has been stranded by itself as a 1cmc (turn 1) threat b/c DRS got banned, and there are precisely zero 1cmc black creatures to fill that void (because this deck isn't called Zombardment - the one exception to this black 1cmc vacuum). JVP/Arcanist/Gurmag won't ever fix this structural instability.

The set slots are 4x Delver + 4x DRS analogue [does not exist] + 4x Shadow [i.e. UB's Goyf]. Being a Delver deck caps you at 15-16 creatures, and you're putting basically all those remaining slots into Gurmag [the TNN-payoff slot]. You can't inject [not-flash] 2-drops into the DRS slot to fix this problem - particularly when Street Wraith can't flip Delver, nor can it tell you how to play anything but predictably linear lines (it's a highly suspect Probe replacement).

There are three ways to change:
-drop Delver and play a worse version of UWx Blade/Shardless/Czech/Grixis "control"/4c Wrenn (these are all the same deck). The key to being successful with the black-using value deck, is that you have SCM with Hymn
-stop trying to make Shadow fit in the DRS slot with Wraith's linear life loss, and use those slots to do something more specialized at the 2cmc mark granting novel play patterns towards a Shadow plan (like Confidant*/Bitterblossom/Orzhov Charm-types or just basic land killers like Sinkhole/Trophy).
-change nothing except cut down to 2 Gurmag and fill the slots with JVP/Arcanist/Last Hope/etc. such that you end up with ~18x lands +16x things [at most] that won't flip a Delver
*Not the best idea with FoW & Gurmag

In terms of individual cards:
-JVP is mainly a Reanimator card; that said Shadow still has Swamp in it, so Massacre/Snuff Out can at least benefit from Yawg. Will wording. The real key to JVP outside Reanimator is a plan of mana denial into "I have a game plan which involves recasting said mana denial in such a way that I don't just lose to Basic supertype."
-Arcanist is like Dark Confidant, except he's opposed to how Shadow has to win games [creature damage]. An opponent is pretty free to ignore him as the Shadow player has either sabotaged Delver (too many non-flippers, thus unable to pressure adequately before the Snapcaster + PW phase of the game) or diluted their deck with red cards to the point that it's now "legacy cards I own, without Snapcaster" (in which case you kill Arcanist). Arcanist also ramps up just how badly Shadow loses to Chalice.

There is precious little evidence support Shadow as having enough play to stand alone without Delver, because stepping back from the early game means we have to directly compare Shadow to Snapcaster. It's not JVP vs Delver, it's "do I have a plan to play JVP alongside Delver with cuts to Gurmag [and/or Wraith] slots?" If the answer to cutting back on Gurmag is 'yes,' you weigh land destruction/JVP builds vs yard-independent Last Hope (or other 3cmc walker).

Edit: all opponents really need to do against Delver decks is kill ~12 dudes (in a very long game) to not die. It is unlikely that anything will change how bad this deck is vs StP, but investigating the viability of Hogaak-casting strategies are likely the highest yield area of improvement for this deck at this time. This strategy would favor Bitterblossom, but would likely require :b::g: cards to handle Wrenn/Plague Engineer.

The strategy of dumping threat numbers, such that opponents only need to kill ~8 non-evasive dudes total, is a losing strategy against not-combo.

Izor
08-08-2019, 11:32 AM
Edit: all opponents really need to do against Delver decks is kill ~12 dudes (in a very long game) to not die.

This has been true for the majority of Delver decks over the years, but still Uxy Tempo has always been a tier 1 strategy for the last 20 years or so. And it has never been as easy as it seems to kill those 12 dudes and win the game that easily. That's why Tempo decks play their Dazes, Wastelands and Forces and they do a pretty good job at making sure your 12 creatures go the distance.

I still prefer UB Shadow as a variation of that Tempo shell that has always worked in Legacy. 6 Duals, 8 Fetches, 4 wastelands, 12 creatures, 4 Force/Brainstorm/Daze/Ponder, 4 creature removal spells and a bunch of extra interaction to fill the last 10. That's what the original Shadow list was and is. Everything else is, as I said, a different deck with a different gameplan. And that different deck is one I personally don't like as much, because I think that 3/4-colored strategies with higher-powered cards are better at playing the non-pure-tempo fair game in Legacy.

Miracles is likely the deck's worst matchup and other Plow matchups are also hard, though UW Stoneblade and UW Delver are still perfectly winnable because of how much better Daze and removal spells are against them than against Miracles. Not overextending your Shadows when they could have Plows should be a no-brainer anyway (never having 2 in play and never having one in play alongside something that would get you above 13 when Plowed whenever possible).

kombatkiwi
08-11-2019, 03:56 AM
There's a lot of things being mashed up. The main issue with this deck is that Delver has been stranded by itself as a 1cmc (turn 1) threat b/c DRS got banned, and there are precisely zero 1cmc black creatures to fill that void (because this deck isn't called Zombardment - the one exception to this black 1cmc vacuum). JVP/Arcanist/Gurmag won't ever fix this structural instability.
Ok


The set slots are 4x Delver + 4x DRS analogue [does not exist] + 4x Shadow [i.e. UB's Goyf]. Being a Delver deck caps you at 15-16 creatures, and you're putting basically all those remaining slots into Gurmag [the TNN-payoff slot]. You can't inject [not-flash] 2-drops into the DRS slot to fix this problem - particularly when Street Wraith can't flip Delver, nor can it tell you how to play anything but predictably linear lines (it's a highly suspect Probe replacement).
Ok, although I think you are putting slightly too much emphasis on this anti-wraith idea


There are three ways to change:
-drop Delver and play a worse version of UWx Blade/Shardless/Czech/Grixis "control"/4c Wrenn (these are all the same deck). The key to being successful with the black-using value deck, is that you have SCM with Hymn
-stop trying to make Shadow fit in the DRS slot with Wraith's linear life loss, and use those slots to do something more specialized at the 2cmc mark granting novel play patterns towards a Shadow plan (like Confidant*/Bitterblossom/Orzhov Charm-types or just basic land killers like Sinkhole/Trophy).
-change nothing except cut down to 2 Gurmag and fill the slots with JVP/Arcanist/Last Hope/etc. such that you end up with ~18x lands +16x things [at most] that won't flip a Delver
*Not the best idea with FoW & Gurmag
- You need an argument for why cutting delver from UB leads to a "worse" midrange deck. Why must the key to being successful not be JVP+Hymn
- Again you have this weird thought that Wraith is bad because it only does 1 thing. Wraith is either good or bad based on the metagame dictating how much damage you want to be doing to yourself. Arguing that it's bad because it's not "specialised" is nonsense when the card has no function except to instantly replace itself.
- Yeah I don't think it makes sense to play Delver + Shadow + Angler + extra creatures which is what you seem to also be saying in this third point


In terms of individual cards:
-JVP is mainly a Reanimator card; that said Shadow still has Swamp in it, so Massacre/Snuff Out can at least benefit from Yawg. Will wording. The real key to JVP outside Reanimator is a plan of mana denial into "I have a game plan which involves recasting said mana denial in such a way that I don't just lose to Basic supertype."
-Arcanist is like Dark Confidant, except he's opposed to how Shadow has to win games [creature damage]. An opponent is pretty free to ignore him as the Shadow player has either sabotaged Delver (too many non-flippers, thus unable to pressure adequately before the Snapcaster + PW phase of the game) or diluted their deck with red cards to the point that it's now "legacy cards I own, without Snapcaster" (in which case you kill Arcanist). Arcanist also ramps up just how badly Shadow loses to Chalice.
- Yes, agreed with first point. Hymn to Tourach plays this role because starving your opponent out of resources (cards in hand) is functional manadenial, invariant to whether the opponent is playing basics or not
- I don't think an opponent would ever realistically ignore an Arcanist and this second point doesn't make much sense to me (except the chalice thing, which is valid but marginal)


There is precious little evidence support Shadow as having enough play to stand alone without Delver, because stepping back from the early game means we have to directly compare Shadow to Snapcaster. It's not JVP vs Delver, it's "do I have a plan to play JVP alongside Delver with cuts to Gurmag [and/or Wraith] slots?" If the answer to cutting back on Gurmag is 'yes,' you weigh land destruction/JVP builds vs yard-independent Last Hope (or other 3cmc walker).
This is wrong, again you assert that playing Shadow without Delver is bad with no argument


Edit: all opponents really need to do against Delver decks is kill ~12 dudes (in a very long game) to not die. It is unlikely that anything will change how bad this deck is vs StP, but investigating the viability of Hogaak-casting strategies are likely the highest yield area of improvement for this deck at this time. This strategy would favor Bitterblossom, but would likely require :b::g: cards to handle Wrenn/Plague Engineer.

The strategy of dumping threat numbers, such that opponents only need to kill ~8 non-evasive dudes total, is a losing strategy against not-combo.
Izor already explained why this is mostly baloney.
The idea of playing Hogaak in a xerox deck is amusing and I don't want to write it off immediately but you would need such a huge overhaul of the deck to reliably enable convoke I don't think it's likely you would end up with something that's better than either the Depths build or the full-graveyard dredge/altar versions.


Miracles is likely the deck's worst matchup and other Plow matchups are also hard, though UW Stoneblade and UW Delver are still perfectly winnable because of how much better Daze and removal spells are against them than against Miracles. Not overextending your Shadows when they could have Plows should be a no-brainer anyway (never having 2 in play and never having one in play alongside something that would get you above 13 when Plowed whenever possible).

With the JVP version I feel favoured vs Miracles and Blade.
The worst matchups are DNT, Lands, and Stompy/Prison decks
Basically the anti-delver decks become much better against you but the fair blue matchups become more favoured for Shadow, and the combo matchup is roughly the same.
I have no idea whether the deck is still good or not (haven't tried it much post-WAR) because not being able to play Wrenn seems like such a huge drawback and there are some other tools that decks have got (e.g. Arcanist, Veil of Summer).
The deck can take advantage of Force of Negation and Plague Engineer though, which is something

Fox
08-11-2019, 10:35 AM
@kombatkiwi
Every time you reach for Hymn, you reach for Snapcaster, meaning you play Czech Pile/Grixis Control/4c Wrenn b/c these decks just win more games. Solo-Hymn has never been an effective strategy with staying power - so even if you run JVP, you shouldn't be doing it. Here's the no-SCM Hymn peer group: Pox, Jund, BUG Delver. Shardless & occasional Aluren/Food Chain are too high on the mana curve for a comparison, and furthermore [non-Aluren] Shardless Agent is an obsolete Snapcaster (the only thing that ever made Shardless BUG playable was how SDT/CB warped the format in its favor, making cascade towards Decay a reasonable play).

Solo-Hymn doesn't work, and cutting Delvers for JVP (or SCM) + Hymn turns you into a less-winning Grixis Control deck. The problem of Shadow/Angler getting trounced by kill spell + SCM (especially bad if StP) has always been the problem. While it's not exactly effective to use Delver to duress StP from hand, it's better than sitting around in an aggressive deck with zero reach trying to Hymn those spells from hand while they develop ever more unassailable mana (thanks to cards like Vista/Astrolabe/Wrenn) towards PWs taking over the game. Daze and Wasteland are getting worse in real time, and playing solo-Hymn just makes those two cards worse...You cut the Delvers [the only aggressive opener this deck has left] on top of this and it's over, you're in build-order loss territory b/c you've butchered any chance of Daze ever helping you.

WotC made 3-4 color mana bases trivial, so to have a shot with a Daze deck you really need to have a focused gameplan. Stranding Delver by itself and looking for answers at 2cmc (which are opposed to creating a low-to-the-ground pro-Delver gamestate) means that the moment you consider it you're generally making a "cards I own" pile. These piles not only win less than value pile vs the field, they also lose badly to value pile. The days of pretending you've got a good matchup vs greedy value piles and Tundra decks are over - Wasteland stealing the game was the only way that ever worked out, and this just won't happen anymore.

In any 2c/3c shell a not-combo deck needs cards playing off each-other. Random 2-for-1's that don't do anything to synergize & advance a gameplan and fail to deal with on-board problems aren't effective, b/c everyone else is playing that same style with SCM on top of it all. You don't even need to look at how bad Shadow is vs real Delver decks (Delver + Bolt) to realize that Hymn is the wrong card.

Izor
08-11-2019, 04:47 PM
In addition to the above, I'd also argue that Death's Shadow itself is much weaker as a card when it isn't surrounded by a tempo-oriented shell. A big dumb critter without evasion will actually be pretty ineffective in a lot of boardstates, for instance when it's staring down a board stall. If the opponent has a medium sized Goyf, ScOoze, a True-Name or some random assortment of chump blockers like Snapcasters with you at 5ish life your Shadow is mostly going to be on defense, though due to the life total situation your opponent is more likely to draw out of the stall and win. The best way to leverage Shadow as a card to me has been being aggressive and putting down so much pressure that your opponent needs to chump as early as possible. It only really wins races if you can force chumps, as a rule of thumb. And if you do get into board stalls between your Shadow and Goyf-like creatures your best win condition is usually a Delver flying over for 3 every turn, something the slower build is absolutely incapable of.

That paired with the facts that JVP s not a Legacy playable card and that Hymn is a medium powerful value card that doesn't really have a place in a Tempo deck, plus the fact that There have been no notable results for the slower build speak for itself imo.

Fox
08-11-2019, 05:14 PM
I think JVP is plenty playable - but you have to be able to actually use him. If your plan is JVP recast a meaningless spell, you're going to lose. You tap him discarding a Grisel, -3 on FoW, and you make a Grisel (or any instantly dangerous card on that turn, which summoning sick not-tramplers simply will never be) - this is how you use JVP properly.

You need to use the whole buffalo, so if JVP is in Shadow he better be there to turn off deathtouch and refire a comprehensive plan (that isn't passing the turn with a flaccid threat). That plan is mana denial - and I mean Sinkhole/Trophy.

JVP is maybe-value, Snapcaster is value. The difference with JVP is that you're saying that you're burning land drops on Daze and Wasteland, such that you need the untap step to access the value...in a deck that is only winning by maintaining a low mana environment plan (which brings us back to JVP needing to refire that mana denial plan). Daze and Wasteland cannot afford to be undermined by Hymn - this works against combo, and nobody else.

kombatkiwi
08-12-2019, 04:00 AM
Every time you reach for Hymn, you reach for Snapcaster, meaning you play Czech Pile/Grixis Control/4c Wrenn b/c these decks just win more games. Solo-Hymn has never been an effective strategy with staying power - so even if you run JVP, you shouldn't be doing it. Here's the no-SCM Hymn peer group: Pox, Jund, BUG Delver. Shardless & occasional Aluren/Food Chain are too high on the mana curve for a comparison, and furthermore [non-Aluren] Shardless Agent is an obsolete Snapcaster (the only thing that ever made Shardless BUG playable was how SDT/CB warped the format in its favor, making cascade towards Decay a reasonable play).

Solo-Hymn doesn't work, and cutting Delvers for JVP (or SCM) + Hymn turns you into a less-winning Grixis Control deck.
"You must play Snap with Hymn"
"Here are a bunch of decks that wouldn't want to play snapcaster or JVP for either strategic or colour reasons"
"Anyway JVP plus Hymn makes your deck bad case closed"

You just keep repeating your conclusion over and over without giving any argument to support it


The problem of Shadow/Angler getting trounced by kill spell + SCM (especially bad if StP) has always been the problem. While it's not exactly effective to use Delver to duress StP from hand, it's better than sitting around in an aggressive deck with zero reach trying to Hymn those spells from hand
Don't frame it as being an aggressive deck then, You're a control deck with a very low manacurve


While they develop ever more unassailable mana (thanks to cards like Vista/Astrolabe/Wrenn) towards PWs taking over the game. Daze and Wasteland are getting worse in real time, and playing solo-Hymn just makes those two cards worse...You cut the Delvers [the only aggressive opener this deck has left] on top of this and it's over, you're in build-order loss territory b/c you've butchered any chance of Daze ever helping you.
It might be the case that Wrenn makes Hymn strategies unplayable (if so I argue that all Shadow versions are suboptimal in the current meta because non-Hymn aggressive versions operate in the same space as better Delver decks). However I don't otherwise agree with the main thesis of this paragraph. Even if you cut the Delvers you still have enough high-power threats that your opponent is forced to play into your Dazes, and if the opponent holds cards in their hand waiting to draw lands to play around soft counters then discard becomes more effective. The attrition element of "I Hymned your extra land away and now you can't even play around Daze anyway" shouldn't be underestimated. I appreciate that it's hard to mentally overcome the "Daze in a 'control' deck with no aggressive 1-drop, hurrrrrr stupid", but Delver as an 'aggressive opener' has much less importance when your follow-up threat is on the order of a 7/7 or bigger that can win the game in 2-3 hits by itself.


WotC made 3-4 color mana bases trivial, so to have a shot with a Daze deck you really need to have a focused gameplan. Stranding Delver by itself and looking for answers at 2cmc (which are opposed to creating a low-to-the-ground pro-Delver gamestate) means that the moment you consider it you're generally making a "cards I own" pile. These piles not only win less than value pile vs the field, they also lose badly to value pile. The days of pretending you've got a good matchup vs greedy value piles and Tundra decks are over - Wasteland stealing the game was the only way that ever worked out, and this just won't happen anymore.
If resilient manabases are the norm then Delver versions become even worse, because your opponent can develop their mana to a place where they can fire off 2-for-1 removal on your creatures. (Snap-Plow, Kolaghans Command, JTMS, etc). In a deck with no burnspells and no hard-to-kill threats (like mongoose or TNN) this is a death sentence (i.e. why people say that the Miracles matchup is really hard). If wasteland is not effective then Hymn is one of the only ways you can keep both players starved on resources to leverage the fact that your spells are cheaper.


In any 2c/3c shell a not-combo deck needs cards playing off each-other. Random 2-for-1's that don't do anything to synergize & advance a gameplan and fail to deal with on-board problems aren't effective, b/c everyone else is playing that same style with SCM on top of it all.
To enable SCM you need a gameplan where you want to play 4 lands. This has a real cost associated with it. (Otherwise why wouldn't all delver decks just play high-power 3 or 4 drops)


You don't even need to look at how bad Shadow is vs real Delver decks (Delver + Bolt) to realize that Hymn is the wrong card.
The matchup wasn't even that bad, or even unfavourable (at least pre-Arcanist this was the case, maybe the additional reach from this is a problem, or being wastelocked by W&6). It's very difficult for a UR deck to deal with a 1-mana 7/7


In addition to the above, I'd also argue that Death's Shadow itself is much weaker as a card when it isn't surrounded by a tempo-oriented shell. A big dumb critter without evasion will actually be pretty ineffective in a lot of boardstates, for instance when it's staring down a board stall. If the opponent has a medium sized Goyf, ScOoze, a True-Name or some random assortment of chump blockers like Snapcasters with you at 5ish life your Shadow is mostly going to be on defense, though due to the life total situation your opponent is more likely to draw out of the stall and win.
This is partly true and is part of the reason why I in the last few tournaments I played with the deck I used Tombstalker over Angler, but you can make the same comment about any non-evasive attacking threat like Goyf or Mongoose that are currently seeing a decent amount of play.


The best way to leverage Shadow as a card to me has been being aggressive and putting down so much pressure that your opponent needs to chump as early as possible. It only really wins races if you can force chumps, as a rule of thumb. And if you do get into board stalls between your Shadow and Goyf-like creatures your best win condition is usually a Delver flying over for 3 every turn, something the slower build is absolutely incapable of.

True, but the slower build is also less likely to get into board states where the opponent has a bunch of creatures out because it has more ways to shred the opponent's cards (Hymn)


That paired with the facts that JVP s not a Legacy playable card
If you enjoy being 1 step behind the metagame forever then you can put your faith in the hivemind and consider all cards unplayable unless they top8ed a big tournament in the last 2 weeks


and that Hymn is a medium powerful value card that doesn't really have a place in a Tempo deck
Ok, don't call it a tempo deck then


plus the fact that There have been no notable results for the slower build speak for itself imo.
I'm not just theorising this post entirely out of empty conjecture, I have played both versions, think the Hymn/JVP version is better, and cashed the GP earlier this year with it. Maybe the deck is not good anymore, but I have no interest in Shadow+Delver decks because I think they are clearly worse than the Delver builds in other colours. (Having burn spells is such an important angle when your cheap threats have 3 power, and the extra colours giving you access to cards like YP/Goose/Arcanist/Wrenn means you have threats that need a better answer than "topdeck plow").

Fox
08-12-2019, 07:18 AM
There are some things that stand out @kombatkiwi:

On Hymn + Snapcaster vs Hymn without Snapcaster - the reason the decks without Snapcaster are losing is b/c of Hymn. Playing it alone is not enough value to compete in legacy - look at decks to beat...note how Hymn isn't there, but Hymn + Snapcaster has been. This is not a controversial observation.

If you're a control deck with Death's Shadow, you're losing b/c your threats don't ETB as 2 for 1's nor do these threats have evasion. Look at UW Blade vs Grixis control/4c Wrenn, note how UW Blade is losing consistently. The reason for that is that the deck with more 2-for-1s is more favored, it's a pretty simple equation. There is a lesser arms race going on between the two (JTMS/REB, Plague Engineer/TNN), but that's really on the side. As a quick aside, expect Blade to start running a larger Spell Snare gambit to try and hang with Wrenn; note how Blade is going to pay for that gambit in long tournaments when SnT inevitably comes up.

Hopefully we're understanding that Death's Shadow as a creature is one of the most fragile, high risk-low reward wincons a control deck could choose to run. Shadow becomes even worse when you elect to play cards that allow opponents to start playing PWs (which is now starting at turn 2). This reality needs to be respected if you want to brew a serious deck - opposing PWs are really bad for you, and you need to be able to pressure/kill them either on the field or on the stack. Solo-Hymn actively antagonizes Wasteland/Daze's ability to keep a deck competitive, as it deprives Shadow of a comeback mechanism. Blowing up peoples' hands is fun and all, but you end up losing to things on board - particularly value engines on board.

Izor
08-12-2019, 08:05 AM
This is partly true and is part of the reason why I in the last few tournaments I played with the deck I used Tombstalker over Angler, but you can make the same comment about any non-evasive attacking threat like Goyf or Mongoose that are currently seeing a decent amount of play.

You can't really make the same arguments because all those cards are much different in mainly 2 ways: 1) Shadow requires you to have a low life total and 2) Shadow can grow bigger than all of the others.

In a board stall, this makes Shadow relatively worse, because it has no evasion and because it does not matter how much bigger it is than everything else as long as you still die on the crackback due to your low life.

However, when you are ahead and applying tempo it makes Shadow relatively better because nothing can trade with it, and your opponent will be forced to chump until they die, making your low life total irrelevant.

This is why I'd rather be the tempo deck than the deck that is slower and more likely to get into board stalls. If your plan to prevent that is hitting all your opponents' creatures with Hymn then you might be lucky enough for that to work, idk. For me it's too unreliable.

I also don't want to to talk down on any good finishes you may have personally had with the deck. But JVP in general and Shadow lists without Delver just haven't put up anything near the top of the metagame. And if you think I'm copying lists and rejecting innovation in general then you are assuming things that simply aren't true. In each and any Legacy deck I've played in the last 15 or so years I made my own card choices, and I'm going to question any list I see online, no matter if it was built by a random forum user or someone who plays the game twice as well as me. If anything it is one of my few grievances with Delver Shadow that I can't find any room for innovation past the last 2-4 main slots despite trying my hardest. It just seems to be a common thing with any Delver decks in Legacy that no matter how much you try to innovate them you'll eventualle end up with that same frame that has always been the best in Legacy at playing tempo.

Delver also doesn't stop being a tempo deck just because you put 4 different cards in and decide to call it differently... If you put 4 Delvers in Miracles, is it suddenly a tempo deck? No, it's just a worse miracles with 4 copies of a card that doesn't fit the gameplan. Same with Hymn to Tourach in Delver Shadow. It seems like a great idea and be sure I tested Hymn so much in the deck, but ultimately Fox is right in that it doesn't help the deck where it needs help, which is staying ahead on board and killing before the opponent deploys solutions. Sure you might hit Plow + Snapcaster and feel great, but you might also hit Jace + their 4th Land and feel miserable because you took your turn off to do it and had the Daze/Force/Stubborn Denial for the Jace anyway.

kombatkiwi
08-12-2019, 10:32 AM
On Hymn + Snapcaster vs Hymn without Snapcaster - the reason the decks without Snapcaster are losing is b/c of Hymn. Playing it alone is not enough value to compete in legacy - look at decks to beat...note how Hymn isn't there, but Hymn + Snapcaster has been. This is not a controversial observation.
It's also a missing-the-wood-for-the-trees observation that doesn't tell us anything relevant


If you're a control deck with Death's Shadow, you're losing b/c your threats don't ETB as 2 for 1's nor do these threats have evasion. Look at UW Blade vs Grixis control/4c Wrenn, note how UW Blade is losing consistently. The reason for that is that the deck with more 2-for-1s is more favored, it's a pretty simple equation. There is a lesser arms race going on between the two (JTMS/REB, Plague Engineer/TNN), but that's really on the side. As a quick aside, expect Blade to start running a larger Spell Snare gambit to try and hang with Wrenn; note how Blade is going to pay for that gambit in long tournaments when SnT inevitably comes up.
Your threats don't provide value or have evasion because they are so cheap. If you had a 1 mana 7/7 that drew a card on ETB it would be way too good. But the cheap threats mean that you can keep the curve low and preserve the strengths of both decks:
- Grindy attrition value plan with JVP Hymn engine
- Virtual CA Delver Brainstorm plan with low mana curve and fast clock

I understand that conceptually it is a pretty big leap to believe that this kind of in-between strategy can work ("Isn't this either just a worse X or a worse Y") but other archetypes don't have access to anything like a 2-turn clock for 1 mana


Hopefully we're understanding that Death's Shadow as a creature is one of the most fragile, high risk-low reward wincons a control deck could choose to run. Shadow becomes even worse when you elect to play cards that allow opponents to start playing PWs (which is now starting at turn 2). This reality needs to be respected if you want to brew a serious deck - opposing PWs are really bad for you, and you need to be able to pressure/kill them either on the field or on the stack. Solo-Hymn actively antagonizes Wasteland/Daze's ability to keep a deck competitive, as it deprives Shadow of a comeback mechanism. Blowing up peoples' hands is fun and all, but you end up losing to things on board - particularly value engines on board.
I can't address this comment without having any idea of the kind of decklist you are envisioning. I don't understand your own proprietary "Solo Hymn" jargon, just spend a few extra words typing out what you mean.
Like what card do you think a JVP list is lacking that makes it difficult to deal with a turn 2 Wrenn (or PW in general?)


This is why I'd rather be the tempo deck than the deck that is slower and more likely to get into board stalls. If your plan to prevent that is hitting all your opponents' creatures with Hymn then you might be lucky enough for that to work, idk. For me it's too unreliable.
Ok fair enough, at least you show that you consider it.


Delver also doesn't stop being a tempo deck just because you put 4 different cards in and decide to call it differently... If you put 4 Delvers in Miracles, is it suddenly a tempo deck? No, it's just a worse miracles with 4 copies of a card that doesn't fit the gameplan. Same with Hymn to Tourach in Delver Shadow. It seems like a great idea and be sure I tested Hymn so much in the deck, but ultimately Fox is right in that it doesn't help the deck where it needs help, which is staying ahead on board and killing before the opponent deploys solutions. Sure you might hit Plow + Snapcaster and feel great, but you might also hit Jace + their 4th Land and feel miserable because you took your turn off to do it and had the Daze/Force/Stubborn Denial for the Jace anyway.
Again, it seems like we are talking past each other because we don't agree on what kind of decklist we are talking about. "Hymn to Tourach in Delver Shadow" I am deliberately not playing the card Delver of Secrets. Maybe you used "Delver Shadow" as a shortcut for "UB Shadow" or maybe you think that I want to play Hymn to Tourach in a version with Delver? (Which I have tried and had some success with, although I agree that overall it's probably not correct). Of course people have tried Stoneforge plus Delver and had success with it, sometimes these decks even play JTMS. Do you also want to call it a bad deck outright because it doesn't neatly match with existing labels?

In the situation you describe with Hymn, isn't that situation actually fine? Obviously letting the opponent keep snap-plow is bad but this is worst-case Hymn result, and even if you had Delver instead of Hymn you're hoping that after your first threat gets plowed that your 1 Delver can kill the opponent before they deploy Jace and bounce it. I found this approach was generally less successful than the Hymn 2-for-1 in these situations.

For reference this is the last list I played (only 1 page back)

4 Shadow
4 Wraith
2 Tombstalker
2 JVP

2 Preordain
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Daze
3 Hymn
2 Dismember
1 Fatal Push
2 Reanimate
1 Lili the Last Hope

4 Watery Grave
2 Underground Sea
8 Fetchlands
3 Wasteland

Fox
08-12-2019, 03:11 PM
I really can't make it any more clear: decks that play Hymn without Snapcaster (this is "solo-Hymn") suck. They are consistently poor performers. They will never break into tier 1 b/c their combination of cards aren't good enough. These decks cannot compete with the current card pool.

Opponents are going to play Wrenn; if your response is solo-Hymn you may as well scoop the moment you figure out their deck has Wrenn in it. The zone you need to interact with is the board - you need Delver and a low mana environment.

Firing Hymn into resolved/response Wrenn and going on to draw Wastelands and Dazes is a basically unwinnable. You're also advocating 10x cantrips in a deck that can't even pressure a Narset on-board; this hardly responsible deckbuilding. Chalice x=1 issues???

---

Your list's only realistic wincon is creature damage, and you have don't have enough threats to achieve that goal. Also all those creatures have summoning sickness, no evasion, and no trample - that's why you can't ever be control. You're attacking on one axis, which also happens to be the easiest to disrupt.

Not that it makes your list solvent, but we could cut 2x Preordain for 2x maindeck Surgical and cut 3x Hymn & 1x other card (probably Reanimate) to add 4x Delver and we'd have a much more stable deck.

Izor
08-12-2019, 03:23 PM
While I too was never a fan of that list he did say he wasn't sure whether it was still good in the new metagame, so I wouldn't take W6 and other such cards as big arguments against his reasoning of the last 2 pages.

I've been testing my list against Plug, Pile and other W6 decks a lot lately and tempoing them out has given me an over 50% win rate overall, which I'm happy with for now.

After toying around with basics in the deck for a while (W6, B2B, Bloodmoon being prevalent) I'm now back on 5 duals, though I still haven't discarded the idea entirely. The deck just needs too much black, so basic Island always felt like the worst card in the deck, and Swamp doesn't cast Daze. I'm still considering playing just a Swamp as my basic, because post-B2B/Moon you usually cast mainly black spells and keep blue cards for Forces a lot of the time anyway, but I'll see. This is the list for reference:

9 black Fetches
3 Watery Grave
1 Underground Sea
1 Swamp / 2nd Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Death's Shadow
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Street Wraith

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Force of Negation
2 Dismember
2 Snuff Out
4 Thoughtseize
2 Reanimate
1 Stubborn Denial

I'm back on the most aggressive choice of removal spells because I think they're great in the meta right now, with close to zero relevant black creatures around and tons of green based GSZ piles as well as Tundra decks.

EDIT: Sb:

2 Plague Engineer
1 Contentious Plans
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Vampire Hexmage
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Liliana's Triumph
1 Force of Negation

Splitting my anti-Chalice measures to test out which I like the best right now. Hexmage doubles as anti-walker tech against UW/W6. Been going down from 4 to 3 and now 2 Hymns in my 75 over time for the reasons stated above. Might cut them entirely in the near future, because they don't fight fair decks as well as they used to with those decks playing to the board more with more pws and the like.

kombatkiwi
08-12-2019, 10:00 PM
I really can't make it any more clear: decks that play Hymn without Snapcaster (this is "solo-Hymn") suck. They are consistently poor performers. They will never break into tier 1 b/c their combination of cards aren't good enough. These decks cannot compete with the current card pool.

Opponents are going to play Wrenn; if your response is solo-Hymn you may as well scoop the moment you figure out their deck has Wrenn in it. The zone you need to interact with is the board - you need Delver and a low mana environment.

Firing Hymn into resolved/response Wrenn and going on to draw Wastelands and Dazes is a basically unwinnable. You're also advocating 10x cantrips in a deck that can't even pressure a Narset on-board; this hardly responsible deckbuilding. Chalice x=1 issues???

---

Your list's only realistic wincon is creature damage, and you have don't have enough threats to achieve that goal. Also all those creatures have summoning sickness, no evasion, and no trample - that's why you can't ever be control. You're attacking on one axis, which also happens to be the easiest to disrupt.

Not that it makes your list solvent, but we could cut 2x Preordain for 2x maindeck Surgical and cut 3x Hymn & 1x other card (probably Reanimate) to add 4x Delver and we'd have a much more stable deck.

Yes Wrenn is good against Wasteland decks, Delver is hardly a panacea though because if you play turn 1 Fugitive Wizard on the draw and your opponent resolves turn 2 Wrenn then they just downtick and kill it. Then in UB you have no Bolts to follow up on this either. At least an extra cantrip gives you a chance to find FoW/Daze, and not having Delver in the deck means there's less opportunity cost to just Thoughtseizing their Wrenn on turn 1.

The Narset thing is an interesting point that I hadn't considered but at the end of the day it's just another problem 3 drop that you're trying to get under anyway (like TNN or Moon or similar).
UB with Delver also has huge problems with Chalice (admittedly the Delver version is more favoured, because you can sometimes sneak Delver under a chalice and go on to win with Daze/Waste, but the matchup is still bad)

True, there aren't many threats, but other Delver decks successfully win via only creature damage and still have fewer threats than e.g. Zoo. This just takes the 'trim threats for disruption (or cantrips) and protect the wincon' idea 1 step further.

I get that preordain does nothing when the opponent has Narset, but suggesting I cut them for a spell that does nothing about 90% of the time regardless of what the opponent is doing seems questionable at best. By your own "decks with No-Snap-Hymn logic are consistently poor performers" logic I challenge you to find successful Delver decks playing maindeck Surgical Extractions, and there's no way cutting cantrips for this makes the deck more "stable" (whatever this means).


While I too was never a fan of that list he did say he wasn't sure whether it was still good in the new metagame, so I wouldn't take W6 and other such cards as big arguments against his reasoning of the last 2 pages.
If I was going to play a Delver list I would probably play something like yours or the list from basic_swamp in the recent MTGO 5-0s


Creature (14)
4 Death's Shadow
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Street Wraith
Sorcery (10)
3 Ponder
1 Preordain
2 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize
Instant (18)
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Fatal Push
2 Force of Negation
4 Force of Will
2 Snuff Out
Land (18)
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
4 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Watery Grave
60 Cards
Sideboard (15)
2 Blue Elemental Blast 2 Contentious Plan 1 Engineered Explosives 2 Grafdigger's Cage 1 Liliana, the Last Hope 1 Marsh Casualties 1 Nihil Spellbomb 1 Plague Engineer 2 Stubborn Denial 2 Submerge

It seems like there are hardly any decisions to be made in the maindeck
4 Delver
4 Shadow
4 Wraith
2 Angler

4 Ponder (or 3-1 Preordain split)
4 TS
4 Brainstorm
4 FOW
4 Daze
4 Removal
2 Flex Counterspell (FON/Stub)
2 Reanimate / Flex

18 Land with 4 Wasteland and 8 fetches, decide whether you want 3-3 Sea Grave, or 2-4, or 1-1-4 with a basic, or 2-3 with an extra fetch or whatever
I like the addition of maindeck Force of Negation, and maybe in the Wrenn meta this list will be more successful than trying to Hymn/JVP people, but I'm not committed to playing a Watery Grave deck, and not being able to play Wrenn/Bolts and having access to only shitty UB sideboard cards means I have very little interest in playing a deck like this

Fox
08-12-2019, 11:19 PM
@kombatkiwi I would take it a step further: no matter what deck you're on, if you play solo-Hymn you're deck is not successful (because you are running Hymn). The one little exception to this would be Pox b/c Ashiok as a repeatable Tormod's + mill wincon is really strong against 4c value piles - even then though, Pox has too much internal inconsistency and bad matchups to threaten a run to tier 1. To go back to a previous post BUG Delver is a great poster child for losing b/c solo-Hymn simply doesn't cut it anymore.

As far as Delver decks go, 4x BS and 4x Ponder are plenty of cantrips. The issue with your deck is that your attack is too one dimensional that it is easy to blunt. The idea that spamming 2 extra cantrips to reassemble a flawed plan will lead to success isn't realistic. Here's what your Preordains will reveal:
-I have no pressure on board
-Opponent has a value generator on-board I'm losing to
-Seeing Wasteland/Daze will be depressing, but seeing Hymns as well (which are completely opposed to Wasteland/Hymn, and won't get you back into the game) was an avoidable deckbuilding error
-You finally find a threat and either they'll kill spell from hand, flash one back from yard, or just bounce it back to hand 3x with a Jace if they're desperate

The key to all this is that the thing you needed to care about and interact with was on board - possibly before you even got a turn 2. Now Wrenn isn't always going to survive a discard and/or countermagic opener, but if he resolves you lose. If your solo-Hymn resolves, you don't win on the spot and you will have failed to deal with an existing on-board value-generating problem.

Just want to restate this so we're clear: using cantrips to find assemble an ineffective plan is not a winning strategy.

On maindeck Surgical note the lead-in "Not that it makes your list solvent" - I was simply giving advice that would make your deck better. When the advice of just add some maindeck Surgical improves your list, there is a fundamental problem in deck construction. I find trying to cheese wins off Wasteland -> Surgical, Surgical Loam, Surgical Grisel, Surgical Plow (so my last 5 dudes can't die that way to the other 3 copies and 3x SCM), to collectively improve your list's win %. I'm not fixing your list towards a final form, I'm just pointing out that you'd win more games off the high-variance Surgical play than solo-Hymn and Preordains.

Playing legacy with underwhelming tools (for example BUG Delver, Blue Moon, etc...) isn't like playing a bad deck, it's more like playing a worse deck. A bad deck struggles with consistency, but has the power to win games of legacy. Worse decks are consistent, but use that consistency to find obsolete/underpowered strategies. If you find yourself playing a worse deck in legacy, Surgical cheese can only make it more powerful.

Maximus
08-28-2019, 05:47 PM
Okay so let me preface this by saying that I haven't read this thread for like 8-9 months and am just getting caught up.

To my understanding, these are the latest debates:

- We want to get under a bunch of 3-drops / Chalice / Wrenn / other surprises.
- We (always) want to protect our relatively low threat density
- It has to be more reliable than Hymn to Tourach
- It has to work on a very low mana curve
- Ideally we want to do so in a way that still enables Delver / Shadow / Angler

Maybe this is silly, but why not just transition the two flex slots to more proactive disruption? Force of Negation is a reasonable guess but I think Inquisition of Kozilek could be better. It's not as good as Thoughtseize here, but it still does the desired things listed. Also, Shadow / Angler are almost always coming down turn 3 and after, so it totally supports any sequence that looks like

Thoughtseize / Inquisition > Shadow / Angler / Reanimate

Super Obvious Decklist Inclusion:

14
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Death's Shadow
4 Street Wraith
2 Gurmag Angler / Tombstalker

28
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder / Preordain
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Removal (whatever the meta calls for)
6 Thoughtseize / Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Reanimate

18
4 Wasteland
9 UB Fetch Lands
3 Watery Grave
2 Underground Sea / Basics

Izor
08-28-2019, 07:32 PM
If we could play Thoightseize 5 and 6 I would see an argument for dedicating those 2 flex slots to more discard, however, not being able to hit stuff like Karn, the Great Creator, Urza, Auriok Salvagers, Force of Will as well as all Delve spells and fringe cards like Chandra and Mystic Forge are strong arguments against Inquisition. In addition, 4 discard feels like a good number to me and I'd have to test if the deck wants more cards that are proactive but don't affect the board, and the fact that things like Chalice and other lock pieces as well as explosive starts from RB Reanimator need to be answered turn 1 on the draw make me think Force of Negation is the much better option right now. I'm still playing 1 Denial and 1 FoN in the 2 flex slots, but I'm already testing 2 FoN instead.

I also think, and always thought, it funny that this little miser's Preordain CFB put in the original list keeps popping up and people still aren't really questioning it. Playing the exact 3-1 split always seemed random, with apparently noone questioning if not 2-2 or 4-0 could maybe be better overall.

Until there's any actual evidence for that one Preordain being better than the 4th Ponder, beyond the inventors playing it which may have easily been a Just-Because-move, I'd safely assume that this deck falls in line with each and every other deck in Legacy that plays fetchlands and has some additional interest in stacking the top (aka Delver flips, Miracles spells, etc), and should therefore play 4 Ponder before even thinking about touching the first Preordain.

I always imagine the CFB people still laughing about how long that random tweak has not been questioned since the beginning.

In all seriousness though. Play 4 Ponders.

Maximus
08-28-2019, 08:49 PM
Yeah IoK misses some stuff but it still hits most of our real problem cards, which are basically:

Chalice of the Void
Swords to Plowshares
Snapcaster Mage
Baleful Strix
Blood Moon

Missing out on Lingering Souls and Fireblast sucks but I think it's probably still better than finding alternatives in counters.

Force of Negation also has some holes, not being able to ensure landing a threat or having even more -1 CA in a deck that doesn't really recover well from that kind of trade. Like I said, I could see either way, but I think our proactive gameplan makes it a better Thoughtseize Deck than a Force of Will Deck between the two. I've already tried a split of 4 Thoughtseize / 2 Inquisition and it's played out pretty well.

ThomasDowd
08-29-2019, 12:20 PM
If we could play Thoightseize 5 and 6 I would see an argument for dedicating those 2 flex slots to more discard, however, not being able to hit stuff like Karn, the Great Creator, Urza, Auriok Salvagers, Force of Will as well as all Delve spells and fringe cards like Chandra and Mystic Forge are strong arguments against Inquisition. In addition, 4 discard feels like a good number to me and I'd have to test if the deck wants more cards that are proactive but don't affect the board, and the fact that things like Chalice and other lock pieces as well as explosive starts from RB Reanimator need to be answered turn 1 on the draw make me think Force of Negation is the much better option right now. I'm still playing 1 Denial and 1 FoN in the 2 flex slots, but I'm already testing 2 FoN instead.

I also think, and always thought, it funny that this little miser's Preordain CFB put in the original list keeps popping up and people still aren't really questioning it. Playing the exact 3-1 split always seemed random, with apparently noone questioning if not 2-2 or 4-0 could maybe be better overall.

Until there's any actual evidence for that one Preordain being better than the 4th Ponder, beyond the inventors playing it which may have easily been a Just-Because-move, I'd safely assume that this deck falls in line with each and every other deck in Legacy that plays fetchlands and has some additional interest in stacking the top (aka Delver flips, Miracles spells, etc), and should therefore play 4 Ponder before even thinking about touching the first Preordain.

I always imagine the CFB people still laughing about how long that random tweak has not been questioned since the beginning.

In all seriousness though. Play 4 Ponders.

I think their intent behind the single preordain is that since you are fetching aggressively to make a threat preordain can still clear cards on its own. I think they covered it in one of the first ish primers. you can probably dig up the reasoning. There are pros and cons of both.

kombatkiwi
09-02-2019, 03:08 AM
Event report from this weekend

List
4 Death's Shadow
4 Street Wraith
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Tombstalker

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Preordain
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Reanimate
2 Dismember
1 Fatal Push
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

4 Watery Grave
2 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
8 Fetchlands
(Same maindeck as GP Niagara Falls lol)

SB:
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Plague Engineer
2 Liliana's Triumph
2 Force of Negation
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Infernal Contract
1 Darkblast
1 Submerge

(Compared to Niagara Falls this is:
-1 Pierce
-1 Surgical
+2 Force of Negation
-3 Diabolic Edict
+2 Liliana's Triumph
+1 Submerge
-1 Deluge
-1 Dread of Night
+2 Plague Engineer)

R1: 2-1 Sneak and Show (Omni build)
R2: 2-1 Bomberman
R3: 2-1 Moon Stompy
R4: ID
R5: ID
Top 8: 2-0 Hogaak Depths
Top 4: 1-2 4C Delver
Prize: MP FWB Taiga

I think I was happy with the decklist overall
There is some flexibility in the numbers between Tyrants Scorn, Liliana's Triumph, and Submerge
I think 1 Snuff Out in the 75 might be good also
Liliana was the least exciting card throughout the day but I didn't really see the right matchups for it.
Ratchet Bomb was great.

Maximus
09-04-2019, 06:04 PM
Event report from this weekend

What's your impression of Tombstalker over Gurmag Angler?

Fox
09-04-2019, 06:11 PM
What's your impression of Tombstalker over Gurmag Angler?
Don’t know that you’d want to try Tombstalker without a basic Swamp; this becomes a question of basic Swamp in a Daze deck.

Maximus
09-04-2019, 07:04 PM
Don’t know that you’d want to try Tombstalker without a basic Swamp; this becomes a question of basic Swamp in a Daze deck.

Well, his list doesn't have a basic swamp.

However, mine does. It's good that you pointed that out though since they are definitely related. Good catch.

kombatkiwi
09-05-2019, 01:36 AM
Flying is relevant against TNN and Plague Engineer (and some other creature decks in general like Goblins/DNT/Elves etc, or situations vs Bomberman with Mentor, random Khalni garden tokens it matters more often than you might think)

Extra B in the cost is mostly worse against Daze/Wasteland pressure, which might be more important now that Delver decks with Wrenn are a thing. The likelihood of having to cast Tombstalker 1 turn later than Angler because you only had 1 untapped black source available is very rare and much of the time it doesn't matter anyway

If you are playing anything like Stubborn Denial or Spell Pierce then Tombstalker becomes much worse (because it's much harder to pay BB and leave U up than pay B and leave U up), also if you are playing a Delver build without any other 2-drops (JVP Hymn etc) then Tombstalker is also worse, because it creates a demand for the 2nd, 3rd land but with no other 2 drops there is still very little payoff for having those.

Having a basic swamp would also help with playing Stalker but it's obviously not essential

MScott
09-08-2019, 05:12 PM
I played this deck when deathrite got banned, and am trying to get back in it, and was wondering if anyone had any feelings about splashing green?
My list I have been testing is

4 Death's Shadow
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Street Wraith
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Reanimate
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Dismember
1 Sylvan Library

4 Wasteland
3 Watery Grave
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Baleful Strix
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Karakas
2 Flusterstorm
1 Plague Engineer
1 Hydroblast

The idea is that it can switch to a more control heavy build postboard.

Fox
09-08-2019, 07:38 PM
@MScott you still only have 18 lands, so you can't really pull off the switch. The thing about going big with Delver decks is that you should cut Delver and turn into Grixis Control or 4c Wrenn preboard, b/c you're boarding into a worse version of that same strategy.

Tobitzki
09-08-2019, 09:34 PM
@MScott: I think the green splash looks pretty strong currently, but why not just keep it lean & mean in the board? @Fox is not wrong about your mana curve going to struggle with multiple Strixes & Snaps, plus up to 3 Hymns post-board. If you check MTGTop8 you'll see that green-splashing Shadow lists tend to up the land count. However, you could also just swap the SCMs for JVCs, cut the Strixes, stick the MB Hymn and Library in the board for 1-2 Force of Negation and/or a Snuff Out (even a Berserk if you're feeling frisky) in order to maintain the deck's explosiveness.

Last year at some point I maindecked a single Ratchet Bomb and a Lim Dul's Vault to find it to help fight off Chalices, which worked ok but Decays are probably more elegant here. (The LDV tech could help tutor out Karakas, though...)

Maximus
09-09-2019, 07:03 PM
Maybe this is just me but I thought that list looked pretty cool. I think another land over the MD hymn would be reasonable. And Strix is probably not the place to be for a while. But the concept is cool and I could see it working.

Izor
09-16-2019, 12:38 PM
Top 8ed a local 6-rounder this weekend.

Overall the deck felt very strong against everything that wasn't a fair Brainstorm mirror. Most of those come with either Lightning Bolts or Swords to Plowshares, both of which are hard to beat for different reasons.


R1 2-0 vs BW taxes

I sort of just tempo him while killing all his Mother of Runes.

R2 2-0 vs 4-color Loam

Heavy mana denial gets me both games, including Snuffing a Dryad Arbor. The second game also involved me Proliferating his Chalice to 2 and him drawing his remaining 3 Chalices over the course of the next 5 turns. Had a hand full of permission in the end anyway, though.

R3 2-0 vs mono-U Delver

I keep TNN off the field both games and race his Flyers (Delver and Pteramander) with Shadows.

R4 2-0 vs Death and Taxes

Game 1 involves me TSeizing and Reanimating his Palace Jailer killing his only creature. Game 2 involves 2 Plague Engineers on Human.

R5 1-2 vs UW Stoneblade

I tempo his clunky draw by countering his cantrips game 1. He has 2 turns to rip a Plow for my two Shadows but fails to. Game 2 I mull and rip lands off the top. I never see a cantrip. Game 3 I'm once again unable to draw any cantrips and my turn 1 Delver doesn't flip for 7 turns in a row (25 spells in deck). He never saw an out to it, but didn't end up needing one.

R6 0-2 vs UR Delver

This matchup usually revolves around trading resources until both players have almost nothing left, at which point either Shadow wins because their creatures are bigger than theirs, or they win because they drew enough burn and the Shadow deck never saw a Shadow. Game 1 went exactly like the latter, and game 2 I'm unable to find a second land in 2 Wraiths, 1 Ponder and 2 Brainstorms (all of which resolved) and I play the one-spell-per-turn-game with 7 one-drops in hand until he topdecks a Wasteland. He's basically out of cards but I brick on land for three more turns before his Pyromancer kills me.

Finished 5th with the highest opp score. Top 8 wasn't played out.


Sort of an anti-climatic ending losing 4 games in a row after going 9-0 in games initially, but oh well. Got the harder matchups and my draws didn't cooperate at all in those last rounds.


Thinking about boarding out all my Street Wraiths against UR Delver in the future, because of how miserable they are when you draw them mid game when you're already in Shadow territory.

kombatkiwi
09-17-2019, 12:55 AM
Thinking about boarding out all my Street Wraiths against UR Delver in the future, because of how miserable they are when you draw them mid game when you're already in Shadow territory.

Yup

MScott
09-18-2019, 12:55 AM
Is there a sideboard primer out there?

Maximus
09-18-2019, 09:51 PM
Is there a sideboard primer out there?

I don't think so, although even if there was I'm not sure that would be the right way to go about it- sideboarding is an imperfect art and picking your 15 cards is a constantly moving target of sorts. I think the main things you want to cover are like:

Swords to Plowshares
Chalice of the Void
-----
the various Delver mirrors
being able to go long while keeping a low mana curve
being able to add more meta-specific removal, whatever that calls for

We're already pretty good against the more timeless combo (LED / Entomb / Show and Tell) decks so it's okay to shore up other MUs elsewhere instead. It's also getting to the point where T2 Thoughtseize on the draw is still good to hit W6 or keeping like 2 Daze in. Sometimes you just have to feel it out based on how your opponent plays.

aedrew
09-19-2019, 10:43 AM
Is there a sideboard primer out there?

Agree with Maximus. I didn't attempt to add a sideboard guide to the primer because sideboarding is so dependent on your specific 75 and guides quickly become outdated. If you have specific questions, I am sure we can try to help with those.

Speaking of the primer, I intend to update it soon with some of the new cards that have come out. I am thinking of adding Plague Engineer, Force of Negation, and Contentious Plan. Any other suggestions?

Maximus
09-19-2019, 05:49 PM
Agree with Maximus. I didn't attempt to add a sideboard guide to the primer because sideboarding is so dependent on your specific 75 and guides quickly become outdated. If you have specific questions, I am sure we can try to help with those.

Speaking of the primer, I intend to update it soon with some of the new cards that have come out. I am thinking of adding Plague Engineer, Force of Negation, and Contentious Plan. Any other suggestions?

It's not new but I think you could add Winter Orb to the list of possible sideboard cards.

kombatkiwi
09-23-2019, 02:20 AM
Won another dual with the JVP Version (decklist is on the previous page)
R1 2-0 Sneak and Show
R2 2-1 LED Dredge
R3 2-1 Mimic Eldrazi
R4 0-2 Slow Depths
R5 2-1 RUG Delver
R6 ID

Top8 2-0 Slow Depths
Top4 1-2 Medium Depths

I think the way the meta has turned out after MH1 and the deck having access to plague engineer means that the upside of Tombstalker over Angler isn't as relevant anymore

Edit: I might try the new 1U 5/4 Gargoyle for fun but I don't expect it to be much of an improvement, if any

Pros:
- Castable off waste + dual (compared to tombstalker)
- Castable on turn2 not needing any delve (when it can presumably e.g. block delver immediately)
- Pitches to forces
- Enables Jace/Reanimate lines
- Filter your own brainstorms/ponders

Cons:
- Opponent can set up their own Brainstorms/Ponders in anticipation of you using it (or in response)
- Randomly putting cards in the opp's graveyard not great against Delve/Snapcaster/Dreadhorde/PIF/Reanimate/Wrenn etc
- Conditional at attacking/blocking, especially against non-cantrip non-fetch decks that aren't going to put many cards in their graveyard
- Gets wopped by RIP if RIP comes down after it (although if your opponent has RIP first you can at least play this and block whereas delve cards are uncastable so maybe it's a wash)
- Dies to artifact removal, push/decay
- Red blastable
- 4 toughness worse than 5 (Goyf and TKS are the main ones, also it's an artifact itself so it pumps goyf)

kombatkiwi
10-09-2019, 01:05 AM
I played in a short tournament last night with my usual list -2 Tombstalker +2 Vantress Gargoyle.

Result:
2-0 Storm
2-1 Miracles
0-2 Lands

The Gargoyle actually seemed pretty good
Both times I cast it there was only 1 turn where it could not attack and I had to use the Ghoulcaller's Bell ability, and both of these times were before I would have been able to play a Tombstalker anyway. Having maindeck Hymn probably helps with this, compared to versions playing e.g. more counterspells or other reactive cards.

Upping the blue count was also noted.

I would probably say:

Main Benefits:
- Pitches to FoW
- Always 2 mana without needing any Delve requirement (so you don't have to sequence around it, and it doesn't interfere with your graveyard for Reanimate/Jace)

Small Benefits:
- Can use wasteland to cast it
- Doesn't have additional cost on casting it so it's better against bounce effects (e.g. Brazen Borrower or JTMS minus)

Neutral:
- Has Ghoulcaller's Bell ability. (Sometimes this will be good to fill your graveyard to set up JvP/Reanimate lines, or filter through the top card of your deck when cantripping, or disrupt the top of the opponents library with Mystic Sanctuary/Counterbalance, or give yourself a Surgical target. It's bad if it puts cards in your opponent's graveyard that helps them (e.g. reanimate targets or delve fodder) or if they use the ability to set up the top cards of their library (e.g. they Brainstorm in response). Overall the impact of this ability is generally small because there isn't much decisions to be made around it. Anytime the opponent has <7 cards in the yard you basically have to activate it, and otherwise you are attacking.
- 2 cmc for reanimate purposes. (Sometimes this will be good because you can't Reanimate Stalker if you are on 8 life or lower but sometimes you do want that massive lifeloss. Overall this is probably a slight negative because if you are super low on life you would probably rather Reanimate a Shadow instead, but sometimes you won't have one, or there are weird spots where you're on around 5 life but don't want to reanimate a Shadow, so you can cast another Shadow from hand if they Plow what you reanimated, etc

Small drawbacks:
- Bad against graveyard hate (but so is every Delve card, at least this one is relatively leyline-immune. Not that people should be boarding that in against you anyway but they do sometimes).
- 4 Toughness rather than 5 is not a super important threshold in Legacy but it does matter against some things like TKS or Wrenn+Bolt etc
- Has artifact type so it pumps opposing Tarmogoyfs when it dies, possibly putting them out of dismember range. (Maybe this is a bigger downside depending on the meta)

Main drawbacks:
- Low CMC means it dies to things like Decay, Push, Tyrant's Scorn, Drown in the Loch, EE, Blast Zone. (The significance of this is limited by the fact you will always have 4 Shadows in your deck as targets anyway)
- Dies to artifact destruction (K Command is probably the worst one but also e.g. Abrade)
- Red Blastable
- Spell Snareable (but just as with Decay and Push, the deck has Hymn and JVP already)
- Bad at blocking (this is a pretty aggressive deck that doesn't block often but Tombstalker was often good at e.g. stabilizing vs Delver of Secrets)

Overall it seems that the graveyard-dependent ability of the Gargoyle is significantly less awkward than Delve, so that in addition to being blue (pitching to Forces is more significant than the blast vulnerability I think) I think it's likely that the Gargoyle is better than Tombstalker, even if it does have some other drawbacks

Whether it's better than Angler (still the same issue of Tombstalker: 2 mana or 1 vs Flying or No) is still a different question but I'm happy to keep using the gargoyle for now

Maximus
10-11-2019, 09:31 AM
@ kombatkiwi

Do you mind posting your list as it sits? I'm curious what your spell suite looks like to support what is at this point a pretty radically different threat base.

kombatkiwi
10-13-2019, 05:21 AM
@ kombatkiwi

Do you mind posting your list as it sits? I'm curious what your spell suite looks like to support what is at this point a pretty radically different threat base.

4 Death's Shadow
4 Street Wraith
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Vantress Gargoyle

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Preordain
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Dismember
1 Fatal Push
2 Reanimate
1 Liliana the Last Hope

3 Wasteland
4 Watery Grave
2 Underground Sea
8 Fetchlands

SB:
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Force of Negation
2 Plague Engineer
2 Liliana's Triumph
1 Darkblast
1 Infernal Contract
1 Submerge
1 Liliana the Last Hope

Mr. Safety
11-01-2019, 09:44 AM
Has there been a successful Grixis version of this deck? Is there enough value in red to splash it or is the stability of an only UB mana base too important?

aedrew
11-02-2019, 09:59 AM
Has there been a successful Grixis version of this deck? Is there enough value in red to splash it or is the stability of an only UB mana base too important?

A red splash (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1561202#paper) got 7th Place at an SCG Classic in January. People also tried Dreadhorde Arcanist when that came out, but I haven't seen it lately.
You can't argue with red blasts. However, when I've tried to splash, I've found the the mana very difficult. You often want to crack your fetches early to lose life, so you either expose your only splash source to Wasteland before you actually need the color or you risk not having access to a fetch later when you do.

Fox
11-02-2019, 10:11 AM
I think the issue with red is that while Bolt and Blast are cool, you never really fix the problems of Chalice x=1 and that your wincons are all colored non-tramplers. It's really hard for any 3rd color to compete with green's Sylvan, Berserk (doubles as removal), Decay, and Trophy (potentially maindeck anti-Depths).

Izor
11-02-2019, 02:04 PM
Splashing is generally very awkward in this deck, because most of the time you will end up losing full control of either your colors or your life total when fetching up lands. This is why I always regarded the shock lands in this deck as a kind of third color that taxes your fetching decisions.

Red really only provides Lightning Bolt, which isn't even as great with Shadows and Anglers as it is in more traditional Delver shells. Anything else Red provides green usually provides as well, such as answers to Chalice and other artifacts, plus you get Berserk as a superior Legacy version of Battle Rage. As Fox said, it also doubles as a removal spell when needed and the life loss from that is not a drawback for us.

That only leaves red blasts as a reason to splash red. Imo Mystical Dispute is currently a very underrated card for non-red blue decks that will often do the same thing as red blast while being worse sometimes and better very rarely. The mana situation is just too bad for me to consider adding a color for this small upgrade.

So in my eyes, if you really need the combo-finish from Berserk and/or Decays because your metagame is full of prison decks,green is an option. Otherwise, stay UB.

kombatkiwi
11-04-2019, 02:01 AM
I have played some more with the JVP version with Gargoyle in the 'Angler' slot, and Gargoyle has been performing pretty well.

One of the major justifications for playing a split of 2 Angler and 2 Jace was that you can't afford to play 3+ Delve creatures, because you won't have enough cards in grave to exile and will brick. JVP was added both because its cardadvantage function does make sense in the deck, but also because you wanted a certain minimum density of proactive cards and there wasn't any other viable non-delve 'threat' play that exists at the 1-or-2-mana range in UB colours.

Now with the existence of Vantress Gargoyle you can easily play 4 'Tarmogoyf', when this is not really something the deck could do before.

For example

4 Deaths Shadow
4 Vantress Gargoyle
4 Street Wraith

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize

14 Blue Sources

14 "Flex Slot" (certainly including some number of removal and wasteland)

The matchups where Jace is clearly weaker than Gargoyle are those matchups where its 2 toughness is a liability and it dies easily. This includes Bolt decks, some of the most popular archetypes at the moment (RUG / UR Delver) but also Lands (Punishing Fire). By playing a maindeck like this with 4 Gargoyle there are no creatures that die to Lightning Bolt, which is a strong upside. Sometimes Jace is also weak to Karakas but DNT isn't super popular at the moment. (Sometimes Legendary is just annoying because you draw both of them).

The matchups where Jace is better is against those matchups where your opponent has a lot of removal that indiscriminately kills all creatures. For example, flipping Jace against miracles can lead to a lot of card advantage over the course of a game because it's harder for that deck to kill a PW than a creature, and it lets you play multiple 'threats' onto the battlefield without having to worry about getting swept by Terminus. Jace's creature-form is equally vulnerable to UW removal as gargoyle so the 0/2 body is not a drawback here. Similarly, against decks with Baleful Strix [removal that only works on creatures that get into combat] Jace is highly effective as it doesn't need to attack to be useful, and it even nulls Strix to allow your other creatures to attack.

Against combo decks it's difficult to be certain. For example against storm, Jace might allow you to flashback a Thoughtseize or even a Hymn, which is very strong, but casting Gargoyle instead might mean that the opponent loses the game 1 or more turns earlier. You can make similar judgments against most other kinds of decks e.g. Depths or Stoneblade where in different situations either card could be stronger. In general Jace is probably the more powerful card if the low toughness doesn't matter, but because Bolt is so popular at the moment it seems like it could be worth making this switch and then maybe adjusting the other numbers to compensate for the fact that the maindeck will inevitably slant more aggressive.

For example, the list I recently played was the above (with 2-2 Jace/Gargoyle) with

3 wasteland
2 Dismember
1 Push
2 reanimate
3 hymn
1 Force of Negation
2 Preordain

Losing the Jace makes me possibly want the 4th Hymn as another source of card advantage against control decks. It also helps to put cards in the opponents graveyard so that Gargoyle can attack. In my experience it's rare that you want to cast the Gargoyle very early when it can't attack, as you typically want to soften the opponent up with TS/Hymn first, then land Gargoyle after, and usually by this time Gargoyle can attack naturally (without having to activate its tap effect). I don't think it will be necessary to play many (if any) cards like Thought Scour to enable it. Reanimate is possibly not necessary (or at least, it is less necessary) because we have already increased the number of attackers in the deck by 2. I will probably keep playing the same mix of removal, although some people are having success with Snuff Out.

The other thing that I think might work well with Gargoyle is Stubborn Denial, both because it makes sense with a more aggressive tempo plan (-2 CA engine +2 Flying beatstick) but also obviously that gargoyle is an unconditional 5/4 that enables Ferocious easily from turn 2. One drawback with Stub in my previous build is that it didn't synergize well with Jace (JVP doesn't enable Ferocious and can't really flash it back).

So I suggest a speculative build like
3 Wasteland
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Dismember
1 Push
2 Stubborn Denial
1 Reanimate
1 Preordain (or maybe a thought scour)

It would be fun to play a card like Deep Analysis in the preordain spot to try and Brainstorm it to the top and then mill it with the gargoyle, but this is probably too silly. Field of Dreams / Lantern would be a similarly daft idea. (The idea of a Lantern lock isn't terrible but it's too hard to get multiple Gargoyles). It's possible that the 4th wasteland could be added over a reanimate/preordain. Not having Jace means that the deck can more reasonably afford to play Cage in the SB, which is notable.

The deck is not using its own graveyard at all now (barring Reanimate), so it's possible that this is a missed opportunity, and should still be playing 1 Angler or something.

The SB should still be mostly the same, with the hope that the stubs and the 4th Hymn can make up for the loss of the Jaces against control decks.

Anyway I will try out this version of the deck this week, let me know what you think of this idea. I'm also very tempted in this meta to try to fit 1-2 basic lands but I'm not 100% sure.

Mr. Safety
11-04-2019, 07:01 AM
Splashing is generally very awkward in this deck, because most of the time you will end up losing full control of either your colors or your life total when fetching up lands. This is why I always regarded the shock lands in this deck as a kind of third color that taxes your fetching decisions.

Red really only provides Lightning Bolt, which isn't even as great with Shadows and Anglers as it is in more traditional Delver shells. Anything else Red provides green usually provides as well, such as answers to Chalice and other artifacts, plus you get Berserk as a superior Legacy version of Battle Rage. As Fox said, it also doubles as a removal spell when needed and the life loss from that is not a drawback for us.

That only leaves red blasts as a reason to splash red. Imo Mystical Dispute is currently a very underrated card for non-red blue decks that will often do the same thing as red blast while being worse sometimes and better very rarely. The mana situation is just too bad for me to consider adding a color for this small upgrade.

So in my eyes, if you really need the combo-finish from Berserk and/or Decays because your metagame is full of prison decks,green is an option. Otherwise, stay UB.

I really like the Berserk idea, it's definitely appealing. Having access to Abrupt Decay and Sylvan Library could be amazing. Berserk would be pretty amazing to finish off games (especially where I'm trying to jam Dreadnoughts in my list instead of Anglers.)

Izor
11-04-2019, 04:47 PM
I've been tinkering with Vantress Gargoyles as well and the card has been performing very well, though I think I wouldn't want to miss out on Thought Scour to power up both Gargoyles and Anglers. Otherwise it's a really bad card in a lot of matchups, especially against combo decks where it really hurts when it can't attack early on. Just tapping it every turn is very slow.

I've been testing two different approaches with Gargoyle. One is similar to kombatkiwi's above, with Gargoyle as my 3rd creature of choice besides Shadow and Angler. I don't see a reason to cut Anglers from the deck because Gargoyle actually helps it and Thought Scour powers up both of them as well as Reanimate and Liliana potentially. I've been testing something like this:

4 Shadow
3 Wraith
2 Gargoyle
2 Angler

4 Force
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Thought Scour
3 Hymn
1 Liliana
1 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Drown in the Loch
1 Push
1 Dismember
1 Snuff

18 Land (4 Waste, 3 Grave, 2 Usea, 1 Swamp, 8 black Fetch)

The other approach I've been taking is playing something more similar to the UB Delver lists that have been putting up some 5-0s lately. They use Gargoyle to complete their mostly evasive creature base and play a more standard Delver game while sticking to two colors and I've been having good results with that. Not having to start games at 10 life is a real relief when you've played Shadow for so long. It's something like this:

9 Fetch
1 Swamp
2 Island
2 Usea
4 Waste

4 Delver
3 Gargoyle
3 Angler
2 Brazen Borrower

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thought Scour
5 Force
4 Daze
2 Drown in the Loch
4 Thoughtseize
3 Push

kombatkiwi
11-05-2019, 12:38 AM
I've seen lists like this (the second one) and I don't like the fact that there is the tension between milling yourself (Angler) and milling the opp (Drown, Gargoyle). The Shadow list with Angler and Scour also has this problem (and you're making extremely questionable trims to fit all of this, like only playing 3 Wraiths and 3 Ponders etc). The upside of playing e.g. 4 Gargoyle and 0 Angler (or vice-versa) in a list with thoughtscour is that you always know who you want to be targeting.

I agree that there is probably a deck that can afford to play both Angler and Gargoyle but if I have to play so many Thought Scours to enable it I'm probably not interested. I agree that even in a list without scour its probably correct to have at least 1 angler split with gargoyle because it's 'better' and the first 1-2 are without a significant drawback.

But yeah overall I don't like Scour much, I think it makes more sense not to play Delver in UB and then it seems better to have Hymn as a sufficient "put 2 cards in my opponent's graveyard" effect. Spending 1 mana just to cycle and mill 2 is not really something I'm interested in doing

edit: I will say that the drawback of "it's so underwhelming when you play this turn 2 vs combo and it can't attack" is possibly overstated because the comparison is with Delve cards that aren't even typically castable in this timeframe. At least gargoyle gives you the option to play it on turn 2 if you have nothing else to spend your mana on and then hold up countermagic for later turns

Izor
11-05-2019, 06:56 AM
I've seen lists like this (the second one) and I don't like the fact that there is the tension between milling yourself (Angler) and milling the opp (Drown, Gargoyle). The Shadow list with Angler and Scour also has this problem (and you're making extremely questionable trims to fit all of this, like only playing 3 Wraiths and 3 Ponders etc). The upside of playing e.g. 4 Gargoyle and 0 Angler (or vice-versa) in a list with thoughtscour is that you always know who you want to be targeting.

There is some tension of course, though with 4 Thought Scour the tension hasn't been a major problem. Once you realize that you should always mill your opponent with the first Scour in the dark (aka not having either Gargoyle or Angler in hand yet) until you get more info on your opponent's deck as well as your own draws it's not a big deal. Gargoyle also pitches to Fow and if you drew something awkward like 2 Anglers and a Gargoyle you can make use of that and mill yourself with all the Scours you find, which usually enables the second Angler by turn 5, which is still perfectly reasonable. The Shadow list I posted above has more tension and it's true I had to cut into cards that are considered staples, though I could easily play the 4th Ponder over Lilly, Stubs or a removal spell again if I wanted to, and cutting into Wraiths is an experiment I've wanted to do anyway because of how intrinsically bad the card is at everything but enabling Shadows. Whenever you're in a close match and your opponent found some way to deal with your Shadows for now, your draws become infinitely worse than theirs because you're at 5 life and 10ish cards in your deck are essentially bricks to draw because they damage you and put you into Bolt range or whatever.


I agree that there is probably a deck that can afford to play both Angler and Gargoyle but if I have to play so many Thought Scours to enable it I'm probably not interested. I agree that even in a list without scour its probably correct to have at least 1 angler split with gargoyle because it's 'better' and the first 1-2 are without a significant drawback.

The UB Delver deck definitely can play both in decent numbers, I think you'd find the same after some testing with it. The Shadow list above is as I said more experimental, because I wanted to find out if it was possible to integrate Gargoyle into it. The answer might just be no if this forces you to cut into cards you didn't want to cut or forces you to cut anglers entirely, which I can't help but find wrong. Once again, I don't consider Gargoyle quite on Legacy power level unless you have Thought Scours in your deck as well, because it's basically a creature with defender against decks that don't play both tons of fetches as well as lots of non-creature spells for 1 mana. Hymn is very slow to rely on to fill their yard. Resolving both a Gargoyle and 2+ Hymns takes a whole lot of mana as opposed to sneaking in a Scour or two where possible. In general I don't like playing more than 5-6ish 2-mana Spells (not counting Daze) in my Daze decks, because any opener with Daze and two-drops but no proactive 1 mana spell is so awkward. Two mana spells are also risky in decks without Basics too.

All in all, if your main goal is to beat fair blue decks, your Shadow list above is probably as strong as it gets in UB, however, you're inevitably sacrificing a lot of game against the rest of the field.


But yeah overall I don't like Scour much, I think it makes more sense not to play Delver in UB and then it seems better to have Hymn as a sufficient "put 2 cards in my opponent's graveyard" effect. Spending 1 mana just to cycle and mill 2 is not really something I'm interested in doing

A lot of this discussion comes down to how much of a sacrifice it is to be playing Scours in legacy. To be honest, it's a totally fine card. The first generation Delver decks played 4 of them alongside Nimble Mongoose and Snapcasters. Every now and then you find someone who plays a few in RUG as well. The card isn't very far off Legacy power level as such, so the more synergies you have, the more playable it becomes. I'm not going to claim that UB Delver is as good or better than other Delver decks out there, but I think it's the deck that uses gargoyle the best. And if Gargoyle isn't good enough in that deck, it isn't playable in legacy at all.


edit: I will say that the drawback of "it's so underwhelming when you play this turn 2 vs combo and it can't attack" is possibly overstated because the comparison is with Delve cards that aren't even typically castable in this timeframe. At least gargoyle gives you the option to play it on turn 2 if you have nothing else to spend your mana on and then hold up countermagic for later turns

That's only partly true, because if that turn 2 play doesn't actually affect the board until turn 5 or later, it's already behind Delve or Shadow Schedule. It also won't even be able to block a decent amount of the time, which makes it even more important that it attacks asap. As long as you're only casting Dazes and Cantrips (also something the UB Delver list is much better at than Shadow) you'll be able to block, but any other creature or discard spell you cast is -1 card and Force is -2. If you cast 2 of those effects and you're on the play you won't have 4 in hand as early as turn 2-3. What makes Gargoyle + Angler + Scour good is your ability to change pace. You realize you're up against a Delver deck, go play out Gargoyle early, mill your opponents with Scour and be fine with Anglers joining later on. You're up against combo, keep Gargoyles to pitch to Forces and turbo out an Angler as early as turn 2 with Scour (only requires one Fetch, one Scour plus two out of Fetch/Cantrip/Tseize/FoW/Daze).

Mr. Safety
11-05-2019, 07:18 AM
...and cutting into Wraiths is an experiment I've wanted to do anyway because of how intrinsically bad the card is at everything but enabling Shadows.

Dark Confidant? Even with W6 everywhere Bob seems like a powerful option to play for card advantage/velocity/ancillary life loss to feed Shadows. It isn't as controllable as Street Wraith so I think it pushes you to 4 Ponder at the expense of any Thought Scour to control your Bob flips.

It could just be my fond recollection of playing Junk for so many years, but Thoughtsieze into Bob feels so good. Now you can do it with Daze/Force backup all the while feeding your Shadows.

kombatkiwi
11-05-2019, 08:24 AM
Dark Confidant? Even with W6 everywhere.

This is it honestly, I don't think it's correct to play this card when wren/bolt deck is the #1 deck in the format.
I think JVP is probably too vulnerable and that doesn't even die to Wrenn
It's not the worst suggestion but I don't think it's the right call at the moment

@Izor The overall problem with the UB Delver lists is that when I have Delvers I want bolts. Tarmogoyf is probably better than Gargoyle (and maybe Angler) in a lot of situations (in this matchup artifact Gargoyle buffs it) so compared to RUG the UB deck loses Wrenn and loses Bolts and loses a bunch of good SB cards and only gains Thoughtseize and slightly more stable mana. If you're not going to try to 1-up the Delver pseudo-mirror by switching your small creatures for shadows to juke burnspells then I don't think you're doing anything that justifies losing the red cards***. (Admittedly this doesn't really help to answer the 'should you play Gargoyle or Angler in your shadow deck' question).

***Playing any kind of non-tropical delver deck means you dodge submerge in the pseudo mirrors which I guess is somewhat valuable

Izor
11-05-2019, 10:21 AM
Surely Delver is at its best when paired with some sort of reach, that's true and the main reason why it's not that great in Shadow decks. Big vanilla critters simply don't profit from Delver chip shots as much. However, another way to provide reach is playing more evasive threats, and that's exactly what the UB Delver list is doing. So while it may not be quite as good as in RUG or RU, it is already miles better than in the original Delver Shadow decks.

Also, getting to play 3 basics over zero is a bigger deal than you make it out to be imo. Just in the Delver matchups alone UB Delver is significantly better than Shadow, which is one of the main things that drives me away from the card Death's Shadow at the moment. In my last tournament I lost my last round to UR Delver because I was absolutely helpless against their Wastelands with my zero basics and against their reach with my early low life total. So far I'm comfortably winning both the RUG and UR Delver matchup with UB. Delver mirrors are usually about two things: winning the battle over mana and winning the creature board battle. UB Delver wins vs RUG on both fronts and against UR on one while tie'ing the other.

Shadow is better vs most control strategies and a little better against combo decks thanks to its Hymns, though it takes little to no effort to play Hymns in UB Delver too if those are the matchups you're worried about. I'd likely cut the second Island for the 3rd Sea and be fine. I'm choosing to play none in the main at the moment because they've been lackluster recently.

A resolved True-Name is another card that is straight up unbeatable for UB Shadow while UB Delver can easily race it with Flyers. Again, I can't say and am not saying that UB Delver is a better overall deck than Shadow at this point, but right now for my personal taste and the metagames I'm facing it seems like the better deck for sure.


EDIT: I'm not missing red much either apart from where Bolts would be better than Pushes. Abrade is less of a necessity if you have maindeck Brazen Borrowers now that can deal with Ensnaring Bridge and Chalice temporarily as well as Mystical Dispute which acts as a slightly weaker but mostly close enough version of red blasts.

EDIT2: You should also try Drown in the Loch sometime. Whether in Delver or Shadow decks, this card is seriously good.

Fox
11-05-2019, 12:22 PM
UB Delver seems quite a bit less real than UB Shadow. Like what does UB Delver even run - the maybeGoyf [Gargoyle]???

The thing is that even if Goyf cost :1::u: you might have to run it in Shadow lists on principle, but it doesn‘t really help anything. This play pattern of dude into dude into dude worked for like maybe 2 years after 2012 (pre-Wrenn RUG Delver), and without having DRS and Gitaxian Probe cheese‘ing Therapy this rule holds true. The absence of just DRS allows UR Delver to exist as something more than a somewhat embarrassing budget knockoff of Grixis Delver; the point here though is that they can get off the failing, fractal dude train with access to more burn and a 1/3 “maybe-walker“ (Dreadhorde imitating a PW‘s recurrent value).

To summarize:
-dude into dude into dude = recipe for failure
-dude into PW into dude = recipe for success (current RUG Delver)
-dude into the maybe-walker aka Dreadhorde (and more than 4 Bolts as burn) into dude = recipe for somewhat more success than failure

When comparing UB Delver to UB Shadow, we‘re talking about the best presentation of a mostly failing way of playing legacy. Shadow has more power (and more severe drawbacks), and raw power is going to win more games than the dude into dude into dude train that is injecting a *maybe*Goyf in the middle. The overall strategy is flawed [see actual Tarmogoyf‘s comprehensive failure for years in RUG], but you probably want to really stay away from injecting “maybe“ cards into the first two iterations of dudes; it‘s the third dude in that chain that should have the maybes attached (this is the TNN/Gurmag spots).

Edit: once you start talking about Drown in the Loch in any amount above the fun-of, you‘re casting a lot of doubt onto a deck‘s ability to support Delver (and by extension Daze and Wasteland), as you‘re clearly moving away from constricting how long a game will last. Your getting quickly into territory of 4c snowWrennOko where you want to be casting Snapcasters. Assuming budget constrictions putting you on strict UB, playing Drown should begin push you decisively towards Standstill‘s larger mana, slower pace, and greater variety of tools to deal with problems an unsupported Delver shell can‘t bail you out of. You throw Delver into question, and this too will drag down every dude you‘re trying to chain into after him (which puts us doubly closer to wanting to run Standstill, whose emphasis has shifted starkly away from reliance on creatures as wincons).

Izor
11-05-2019, 01:59 PM
It's a pretty bold argument saying that UB Shadow was real when it has posted zero results in its entire lifespan, assuming we're talking about the Delverless build here because the rest of your post doesn't exactly imply otherwise. UB Delver with Gargoyle already has more 5-0s online and it hasn't even existed a full month, though that's still nowhere near tier 1 stats or anything like that, but neither was I implying.

If Goyf cost 1U the entire legacy landscape would have looked completely different for a decade after its printing. I don't even get your argument about Shadow having to play it on principle... you're ranting about suboptimal card choices all the time, yet playing a card on principle even if it doesn't help is fine?

What's wrong with the play pattern of dude into dude coming out of tempo decks? That's literally what they still do to apply pressure early on. They play the exact same amount of creatures as they did 10 years ago, the only difference is that W6 has taken 3 of the spell slots now. How you sequence your spells depends on your draws and the matchup, there's no fundamental difference in design philosophy between the Delver decks today and those before.

While I'm not a fan of UR Delver myself that deck has too produced numerous results, even though the hype has died down a little since Arcanist was printed. Once again, a pretty bold statement bashing on an established Legacy deck in defense of a fringe deck with zero results.

You're taking things out of context too much, really. Shadow is more powerful than Delver, or Goyf, or any other creature that costs 1-2 mana, yes. The problem is that it heavily taxes your deck building, makes you start the game at 10 life, and because of that often even loses the race due to its lack of abilities.

Once again, bold statement calling Goyf a comprehensive failure in RUG when it's played in the by far best deck in the format right now...

Are you playing Hymns in your list? I'm assuming you aren't, because everything negative you just said about Drown in a Daze deck applies to Hymn as well, except Hymn is much harder to cast, doesn't pitch to Force and is less flexible. I'm playing 1-2 Drowns in my lists, I'm aware you can't slam 4 of them into a Delver deck. How those 2 Drowns bring me closer to Wrenn pile or Standstill decks is beyond me though, this was the point where I wasn't even sure if you were serious or trolling the whole time. Delver decks have been successfully casting CC2 for 15 years, but I'm sure you know more about the format than anyone else, so I probably don't have to explain that while a Delver deck could never afford to play a counter spell for 2 mana (because you can rarely afford to keep 2 mana up), it can afford to play 2 mana removal spells in low quantities, especially if they are flexible and blue.


And lastly, I have all dual lands and Fetches available to me, as well as most Legacy staples with no issue to buy more singles if I need them. I like playing two colors because of the advantages I get from it, and because I generally don't like copying the stock lists of the most established decks. If you're restricted for budget reasons that's fine with me, but there's no reason to assume everyone is just because they don't want to play 4-c pile decks that have below 20% against Storm and many other combo decks.

Fox
11-05-2019, 02:52 PM
I have always been of the opinion that Shadow is supposed to be UBg, and that Wraith is atrocious. Look back at any Shadow threads since Josh Utter-Leyton (I think is his name) won a trios format with UB Shadow that started all this hype; UB has way too many holes to compete without 2 decks from other formats picking up the matches it‘s destined to drop. Outside of team format, UB Shadow is linear and underperforming (owing to that linearity). It also has never had a good matchup versus real Delver decks, benefitting from a tiny window where RUG was still awful and Grixis got banned out of playable, leaving only a budget Delver (UR) that couldn‘t really touch a toughness above 3.

So while UB Shadow is a bad idea, it‘s bad in the solidly tier 2 sense. It‘s also doing something unique: Thoughtseize as a lifeloss engine. UB Delver is not a bad deck, but rather a worse deck (i.e. a way to play Delver conventionally with worse tools, in a less-winning fashion).

Interposing a PW between dudes (or the Dreadhorde as a PW imitator) is why RUG Delver is the best deck in the format - this is the mechanism. In the same way Dreadhorde being closer to a PW than Stormchaser Mage is why UR can exist and compete. Slamming dudes-only is an obsolete form of aggro.

On Goyf costing 1U, it didn‘t matter - Goyf ruined legacy for the better part of a decade until late in 2011 when Snapcaster was printed (like c‘mon, it was even showing up in Merfolk). It remains one the most poorly-designed cards, moreso because it can‘t even trade with itself in combat. When a card is so powerful that you have to resort to “if you can‘t beat them, join them“ it kinda needs to [by itself] be able to declare a victor. A confusing statement perhaps, but applied to design mistakes like Wrenn/Oko at least the first person to get one is probably able to bring a farce of a game to an end.

What matters about Goyf is that RUG Delver was a joke for years before Wrenn, and adding a theoretical 1U Goyf to UB Delver so that you can emulate a failed model is something of an unnecessary experiment. You would however have to run 1U Goyf b/c the card is so horribly designed that playing it yourself is the only efficient way to negate an opponent having one. This isn‘t to say that RUG Delver never won any games for a period of ~5 years; it still had generically good cards and put up occasional results b/c the individual cards were still independently competitive. The issue with maybeGoyf, is that actual Goyf didn‘t have the ‘maybe‘ prefix and he still wasn‘t accomplishing much.

Going to put this by itself so it‘s not confused: RUG Delver was kinda trash for like 5 years. Wrenn got printed, and now they‘re the best deck. If during the trash years, if you wanted to win with Delver you should have been on Grixis Delver. This is not a controversial statement; those RUG pilots knew they were piloting the worse form of a Delver deck when Grixis reigned supreme.

Hymn is it‘s own thing, and for that we need to identify the one best Hymn deck dating back years. During SDT/CB dominance Snapcaster for Hymn was called Shardless Agent (can‘t resolve an actual SCM vs CB/SDT, so you needed the trigger to dig towards Decay). Next it was called Czech Pile. Next it was called Grixis Control. Different names for the same thing, and we‘ll note that Hymn - in it‘s best shell - is not competitive. Yes a pile of staples can win games, but you‘re not going to win reliably by topdecking Hymn vs an opponent who is topdecking Wrenn/Oko and/or Dreadhorde.

When the best way to play Hymn is ineffective, it should filter down to the suboptimal presentations (i.e. those playing Hymn without Snapcaster) that having Hymn in your deck is quite likely the reason you‘re losing/the card holding you back.

Fox
11-05-2019, 05:37 PM
Drown in the Loch has a great backup plan for being a 2cmc Counterspell you have to pay for, but it still plays at the same pace as actual Counterspell. It‘s inclusion in larger numbers creates the need to hit your land drops like a control deck - and that means playing 20+ lands. Hitting land drops creates play patterns generally antagonistic to Delver as it will become more important to prioritize finding your second colored land. Add in lost land drops from Daze and Wasteland (that‘s just your Wastelands, not counting getting Wasted and the new requirement to run 2-3 basics yourself), and you find yourself in really bad situations where you‘re not doing the Delver nor the Drown particularly well.

If you‘ve ever played the Esper Mentor stuff [or seen it played] back when it was doing the DRS/Probe/Therapy/Strix stuff, it illustrates the issues with large commitments to bigger mana plans in the setting of Daze and Wasteland. Any current Delver deck with white, runs into these same anti-timings.

The bigger your deck goes, the more anti-timings you can get away with inflicting upon yourself. It‘s not a Daze/Wasteland + Delver issue only, it shows up as clunky hands in more control‘y decks as well. The thing about traditional Delver decks is that they don‘t really have a recovery mechanism. No matter how much more utility you can get out of Drown in the Loch (vs. Counterspell), a card like Wrenn/Oko or Dreadhorde are tools which combine higher mana investment with a recovery mechanism that also proactively advances how your deck wins. While Drown might feel like an awesome card, it [like Hymn] is something that isn’t going to bail you out after someone resolves Wrenn/Oko. Small amounts of a card like Drown is fine, it just can‘t be an effective power core alongside the Delver core.

Edit: put another way, imagine opponent has Wrenn. You can't play Delvers anymore, Wasteland stops working, and Daze isn't going to counter anything. They have Wrenn and it's a 1-card combo; they will win the game if you don't do something about it. Drown won't kill Wrenn, and the opponent is already winning - so they should be done casting spells and deploying/protecting creatures...so Drown has no targets. We come back to Delver not being castable into Wrenn, so every other threat in your deck (minus Gurmag) is gonna cost you at least two mana. Now you need to have 4 mana to cast your only way to pressure Wrenn (a creature) and still be able to protect that creature on the stack [or from removal]...and now you need 5 mana if they are a Daze deck. So this doesn't end well for you spending time early on picking up your lands with Daze and activating Wastelands. You're kinda all-in on opponents not realizing when they're winning decisively, who will continue to jam relevant cards into your Drown and make the tertiary mistake of doing something like mind twisting their hand to oblivion to FoW your Drown that they never needed to play into. If the Delver core fails, the Drown core will fail in sequence - this keeps you from being able to submit competitive lists featuring >1 or perhaps >2 copies of Drown.

kombatkiwi
11-06-2019, 03:06 AM
Also, getting to play 3 basics over zero is a bigger deal than you make it out to be imo. Just in the Delver matchups alone UB Delver is significantly better than Shadow, which is one of the main things that drives me away from the card Death's Shadow at the moment. In my last tournament I lost my last round to UR Delver because I was absolutely helpless against their Wastelands with my zero basics and against their reach with my early low life total. So far I'm comfortably winning both the RUG and UR Delver matchup with UB. Delver mirrors are usually about two things: winning the battle over mana and winning the creature board battle. UB Delver wins vs RUG on both fronts and against UR on one while tie'ing the other.

Shadow is better vs most control strategies and a little better against combo decks thanks to its Hymns, though it takes little to no effort to play Hymns in UB Delver too if those are the matchups you're worried about. I'd likely cut the second Island for the 3rd Sea and be fine. I'm choosing to play none in the main at the moment because they've been lackluster recently.

This goes both ways though because I think you can easily play basics with Shadow too if you want


Are you playing Hymns in your list? I'm assuming you aren't, because everything negative you just said about Drown in a Daze deck applies to Hymn as well, except Hymn is much harder to cast, doesn't pitch to Force and is less flexible. I'm playing 1-2 Drowns in my lists, I'm aware you can't slam 4 of them into a Delver deck. How those 2 Drowns bring me closer to Wrenn pile or Standstill decks is beyond me though, this was the point where I wasn't even sure if you were serious or trolling the whole time. Delver decks have been successfully casting CC2 for 15 years, but I'm sure you know more about the format than anyone else, so I probably don't have to explain that while a Delver deck could never afford to play a counter spell for 2 mana (because you can rarely afford to keep 2 mana up), it can afford to play 2 mana removal spells in low quantities, especially if they are flexible and blue.

This is a good response, e.g. imagine if drown just said "destroy creature with cmc 3 or less, or counter spell with cmc 3 or less". That would still be ok in legacy and doesn't imply that you're trying to take the game until turn 10 or whatever. If the assumption is that Gargoyle can function reasonably early on 7 cards in the opponent's graveyard then of course Drown can be functional from turn 3 or even 2 a lot of the time.


Hymn is it‘s own thing, and for that we need to identify the one best Hymn deck dating back years. During SDT/CB dominance Snapcaster for Hymn was called Shardless Agent (can‘t resolve an actual SCM vs CB/SDT, so you needed the trigger to dig towards Decay). Next it was called Czech Pile. Next it was called Grixis Control. Different names for the same thing, and we‘ll note that Hymn - in it‘s best shell - is not competitive. Yes a pile of staples can win games, but you‘re not going to win reliably by topdecking Hymn vs an opponent who is topdecking Wrenn/Oko and/or Dreadhorde.

When the best way to play Hymn is ineffective, it should filter down to the suboptimal presentations (i.e. those playing Hymn without Snapcaster) that having Hymn in your deck is quite likely the reason you‘re losing/the card holding you back.
This entire line of reasoning is faulty: "Historically the best way of using card X has been in shell Y, so it's a mistake to attempt to use card X in different shell Z".
Different types of strategies (control/tempo/combo) all use FoW/Brainstorm/Ponder by leveraging them in slightly different ways. Are you going to try to argue that Brainstorm is at its most powerful in e.g. Storm, so therefore Miracles is an inherently flawed deck? If you have an original argument for why Hymn is necessarily bad in a non-pile deck then why not just say that instead of this word-salad of truisms/platitudes.


Drown in the Loch has a great backup plan for being a 2cmc Counterspell you have to pay for, but it still plays at the same pace as actual Counterspell. It‘s inclusion in larger numbers creates the need to hit your land drops like a control deck - and that means playing 20+ lands. Hitting land drops creates play patterns generally antagonistic to Delver as it will become more important to prioritize finding your second colored land. Add in lost land drops from Daze and Wasteland (that‘s just your Wastelands, not counting getting Wasted and the new requirement to run 2-3 basics yourself), and you find yourself in really bad situations where you‘re not doing the Delver nor the Drown particularly well.

If you‘ve ever played the Esper Mentor stuff [or seen it played] back when it was doing the DRS/Probe/Therapy/Strix stuff, it illustrates the issues with large commitments to bigger mana plans in the setting of Daze and Wasteland. Any current Delver deck with white, runs into these same anti-timings.

The bigger your deck goes, the more anti-timings you can get away with inflicting upon yourself. It‘s not a Daze/Wasteland + Delver issue only, it shows up as clunky hands in more control‘y decks as well. The thing about traditional Delver decks is that they don‘t really have a recovery mechanism. No matter how much more utility you can get out of Drown in the Loch (vs. Counterspell), a card like Wrenn/Oko or Dreadhorde are tools which combine higher mana investment with a recovery mechanism that also proactively advances how your deck wins. While Drown might feel like an awesome card, it [like Hymn] is something that isn’t going to bail you out after someone resolves Wrenn/Oko. Small amounts of a card like Drown is fine, it just can‘t be an effective power core alongside the Delver core.

Edit: put another way, imagine opponent has Wrenn. You can't play Delvers anymore, Wasteland stops working, and Daze isn't going to counter anything. They have Wrenn and it's a 1-card combo; they will win the game if you don't do something about it. Drown won't kill Wrenn, and the opponent is already winning - so they should be done casting spells and deploying/protecting creatures...so Drown has no targets. We come back to Delver not being castable into Wrenn, so every other threat in your deck (minus Gurmag) is gonna cost you at least two mana. Now you need to have 4 mana to cast your only way to pressure Wrenn (a creature) and still be able to protect that creature on the stack [or from removal]...and now you need 5 mana if they are a Daze deck. So this doesn't end well for you spending time early on picking up your lands with Daze and activating Wastelands. You're kinda all-in on opponents not realizing when they're winning decisively, who will continue to jam relevant cards into your Drown and make the tertiary mistake of doing something like mind twisting their hand to oblivion to FoW your Drown that they never needed to play into. If the Delver core fails, the Drown core will fail in sequence - this keeps you from being able to submit competitive lists featuring >1 or perhaps >2 copies of Drown.
If I'm parsing this correctly you are making the following points here:
- 2cmc spells are on the expensive side for a Delver deck and you probably shouldn't play too many
- Drown is not a good topdeck against a resolved PW

Do you really think anybody disagrees with this? I think you're just tilting at windmills.
I do think you make a good point with "if your opponent resolves a Wrenn on an empty board then your only chance to win is to resolve a creature through your opponents interaction, and it's difficult to do that when your counterspells cost 2 mana", but see how easily I can communicate that idea in as many words. Burying it under your own proprietary jargon ("If the Delver core fails, the drown core will fail in sequence"... give me a break) doesn't achieve anything.

Fox
11-06-2019, 07:34 AM
I probably wouldn't use miracles as a comparison to ANT's Brainstorms since they have Terminus, and BStorm is clearly enabling something in a novel way. Delvers combine Bstorm with sandbagging lands. I would agree though that Brainstorm in tap out and jam archetypes leads to a ton of meaningless hellbent Brainstorms, but at the end of the day it gives them better chances early for lands. There's a big difference between who uses Bstorm best, and understanding that what UB Delver is doing with Gargoyle is the same as what pre-Wrenn RUG was doing with Goyf - mainly not winning. Jamming a stream of dudes-only is a recipe for failure, with a very slight [higher variance] exception for dudes that imitate PW value [Dreadhorde].

Hymn is a separate thing, but we can use the complete absence of Shardless/Czech/Grixis Hymn spammers as a signal that Hymn is bad right now. I get that it's a 2-for-1 and it looks good when you're reading the card, but the issue is that there are resilient value engines coming down on turn 2 that Hymn can't fix for you. When your only answers to these value engines are creatures [4 fewer b/c Delver is dead on arrival vs Wrenn] being cast at sorcery speeds, you need to do a reality check on your deckbuilding. Your creatures need better backup from your spells. At the point of deckbuilding, you know that Hymn is a winmore card that only works when everything is going well - thing is, everything is gonna start going poorly as early as their turn 2.

Drown, beyond a fun-of, is likely worse than Hymn. At least with Hymn you can spam it at an opponent with a PW and pass, then wait to see what happens. With Drown you're decisively losing vs Wrenn - so count your mana:
-lose 2 mana for a sorcery-speed creature (unless you happen to find a Gurmag)
-have 2 mana to protect it with Drown, on the turn you cast it
-hope you don't need a 5th mana b/c of Daze

The important point is not that Drown doesn't kill Wrenn - it's that you're losing. If the opponent is competent, they'll never cast anything relevant for Drown to hit when they have a PW like Wrenn in play. The only way to use Drown will become the 4-5 mana pathway of making and protecting a dude - that's 4-5 mana in a deck with 4x Daze, 4x Wasteland, and a total land count of ~18.

Note that this discussion is about someone coming into a Shadow thread and saying UB Delver is better - and it's like...let me get this straight, you're gonna cut 4x playable-into-Wrenn 1-drops [Shadow], losing access to ~200% more ways to use Drown for only 3 mana against a resolved PW - that's your plan?

---

Just so we're clear, your takeaway points from my posts were off. It's about the backup mode of Drown - forget what the text on the card is, all that matters is that you have exactly one way to use it against a PW, and it costs an egregious amount of mana in combination. When your answer to PWs is only creatures, Drown's only mode is being second card that's like a kicker cost that can only be used if there is a creature to kick. Ergo: fails in sequence.

Izor
11-06-2019, 08:34 AM
I tried to make clear from the beginning that I'm not trying to say UB Delver was an objectively better deck than Shadow, I'm only saying it's currently my personal choice for a number of reasons, some of which actually coincide with things you've said yourself, like Hymn being unreliable and not great overall right now, especially when this format is more about answering the right things than blind-2-for-1-ing your opponent. If it's wrong mentioning a deck without Shadow in a Shadow thread I'll gladly stop and limit myself to talking about Shadow, which is still a deck that I like playing. I guess it was a combination of the two decks being kinda similar in their card choices and there not being a thread for UB Delver (yet) that made me bring it up. My b.

Thanks for explaining yourself in those last couple of posts, I understand some of your points better now, however, I still think you're still over-simplifying and over-essentializing a few things that just aren't as black/white in practise. See, RUG Delver is great, but it's not unbeatable. And W6 is a terribly designed Magic card for how over-centralizing it is, but it is not broken or too strong as a card. By including 3 copies of W6 RUG has lost just as many matchup points against various combo decks as it has won against fair decks. Okay... probably not just as many, but it has lost some. Imo the sleeper best deck in this format right now is ANT, because it doesn't care at all about pretty much any of the 20ish printed cards this year and just profits from people playing planeswalkers instead of Goyfs on turn two. Playing 3 empty pieces of cardboard that are tough on your mana and don't flip Delvers or pitch to Force over actual pieces of stack interaction is what combo decks are only dreaming about.

Anyway, to get back to the point, this format is not just about a turn 2 W6 on the play. Yes, Drown is terrible against that, but so are tons of other cards the format that are still considered good Legacy cards. Neither will they draw and resolve it on turn 2 every game nor will they be on the play and sneak it in underneath something like Drown all the time. And if worst comes worst and you are indeed tapped out and want to protect your Angler, you use it as a pitch card to Force. This is what I see Drown as. I see it as a Fatal Push that isn't dead against decks Push is bad against. If you look at my lists you'll also notice that I play it in removal spell slots, not in stack interaction slots. And as such, the extra mana has been more than worth the upside of getting a Counterspell when I need it or the ability to pitch my normally dead removal spells to Force against Combo. In fact, before it was printed I had already been experimenting with a maindeck Tyrant's Scorn to great success. It's just that great when your dead cards in a matchup become Force fodder, which is by the was also a nice little upside of Gargoyle over something like Goyf, or Shadow's all-black creature base. Against combo you only need to resolve 1 creature to win, any additional one you draw is a pretty bad draw unless you can pitch them.

I kinda agree with you on UBg Shadow by the way. My latest inclination was also to use Berserk to get around the huge TNN/Strix/Coatl weakness, but in practise it didn't play out as well as I'd hoped.

Tobitzki
11-06-2019, 09:02 AM
Interesting conversation going on here. @Fox: I happen to enjoy your unconventional way of looking at the game, incl. the at-times galaxy-brain phrasings that come with it, but here I got a couple of things to throw in:




Comparing UB's new creature suite to pre-W6 RUG seems flawed, and w/ it the verdict that dude-->dude-->dude can never work: Gargoyle is not a maybe-Goyf, but a maybe-EVASIVE-Goyf and it's well known how much Angler outclasses Mongoose (as well as Hooting Monkeys). As a matter of fact, beyond Delvers, opp. Bolts are turned completely off here, which seems significant in a meta where RU/G Delver approaches 20% (btw I would not dismiss especially the current UR Prowess builds as budget). This is also where I'd like to reiterate @Izor's point: Not starting the game at 10 life seems like a real good idea right now. And in a deck built to support 3-4 Gurmags, you don't "happen to find" one, it's pretty likely that you will.




Drown is just a fantastic new flexibility tool for UB and I don't see anyone here arguing to jam 3-4 copies in their Delver list: Why keep harping on the fact that it is not Decay? It's still a better topdeck than literally any other Counterspell and arguably competes for deck space more with the likes of Snare, FoN or non-Bolt removal in a low-to-the-ground tempo deck. (There have been 2cc flex one-ofs in these decks for a long time and Drown so far looks like one of the best of those yet, hence folks are testing up to 2). A lot of things in Legacy don't kill W6 and Oko; Drown at least fights them on the stack at mana & card parity. It's also worth considering that Drown comes with a pair of Brazen Bouncers in these new lists, which do answer resolved PWs and synergize w hard counters like Drown and discard into the mid-late game. Like FoN, Drown is not for protecting your own stuff as much as it is for opp. business spells/permanents, and that is fine. And as for W6: Isn't the whole point of these UB lists to reducing it to Crucible-of-World mode (apart from killing late-to-the-party Delvers) while sitting on 3 basics?

EDIT: wrote this before seeing @Izor's latest post, some points seem doubled now

Fox
11-06-2019, 10:14 AM
@Tobitzski It‘s more that stranding Delver all by himself at 1 mana, in favor of 2cmc dudes is pretty rough. If I‘m gonna topdeck a card like Thoughtseize against a resolved PW, I kinda need it to combo towards winning (like growing a future Shadow). If I‘m playing 2cmc power cards like Drown, I kinda need every threat to cost 1 mana so that Drown‘s backup mode isn‘t a pipe dream.

Beyond the UB Delver stuff, we‘re seeing an amount of JVP + Hymn; but given that CB is gone, Wrenn is here, RUG Delver has no basics, and Depths is here. I think you have to ask why that Hymn isn‘t Trophy. You‘ve got low mana environment requirements (Delver/Daze/Wasteland) and you’re willing to play the low-mana environment Snapcaster (JVP). Trophy‘s backup mode is potentially Sinkhole, and JVP also sees it in the yard. You‘ve got this tool that re-invests into the strategy of low mana, and has a fair bit of text against cards created by undesirable/higher mana environments (also it kills Chalice). People default to Decay but forget that it sits around in your hand doing nothing until opponent has a big mana environment that goes over the top. (BUG Delver takes it a step further by combining Hymn + Decay because they‘re “good“ cards, but the pilots never seem to get just how toxic that combo is to their strategy)

You play UBg and in comes Berserk and Library as well, and suddenly you‘re able to pursue non-linear paths (Berserk as removal/life loss ramp, etc...). The goal with a deck like Shadow should be to warp the tempo of the game in such a way that the discussion is moved away from “if you kill my dudes I definitely lose and have no backup plan“ and towards “we are now going to fight over not-creature things, like mana and Library‘s CA and JVP maybe becoming a PW.“ Build the deck to pursue those plans until the opponent is unable to deal with undercosted P/T values owing to a mismatch of their remaining tools and their intended speed (that they weren‘t able to operate at).

Access to those play patterns above is what can make Drown work, having built to avoid the worst case ‘kicker‘ scenario with 2 drop dudes. This will happen regularly to UB Delver, because they can‘t play the game in a different way. As @Izor is pointing out, the UBg Shadow is maybe not working right now, but the concept it embodies is the future of the deck combining the purposeful life loss engine with a plan to demand resources from opponents to play a forced not-creature subgame.

Izor
11-06-2019, 12:19 PM
To be honest, topdecking a Thoughtseize late in the game isn't the universal boon and combo potential you make it out to be. You're at 5 against a deck with Bolts and your Shadows are staring down a True-Name... how good is that Thoughtseize combo now? How good is drawing Street Wraiths or removal spells that cost 4 life now? These things come up more frequently than that 2 life from exactly TSeize pumping your Shadow the exact amount necessary.


Beyond the UB Delver stuff, we‘re seeing an amount of JVP + Hymn; but given that CB is gone, Wrenn is here, RUG Delver has no basics, and Depths is here. I think you have to ask why that Hymn isn‘t Trophy. You‘ve got low mana environment requirements (Delver/Daze/Wasteland) and you’re willing to play the low-mana environment Snapcaster (JVP). Trophy‘s backup mode is potentially Sinkhole, and JVP also sees it in the yard. You‘ve got this tool that re-invests into the strategy of low mana, and has a fair bit of text against cards created by undesirable/higher mana environments

Now this one I don't understand no matter how often I read it. First of all, we're not seeing any amounts of JVP + Hymn in Legacy beyond the few people in this thread who have had some local success with it. In general, and this is a point I've made before, JVP is simply not a Legacy playable card, regardless of the deck. I don't understand why it's bad to play Delver into Tarmogoyf nowadays, but playing Cantrip or nothing into a 0/2 with no immediate text is fine? There's really something off with that argumentation. You're talking about low mana requirements, but firstly, noone plays Delvers alongside JVP, and second Trophy is the exact opposite of a low mana requirement tempo card. Trophy is in fact purely a power level card that chooses to give up any tempo for power. You may argue that Delver-less Shadow has a different game plan than Delver, but as soon as 90% of the deck are identical and you play Dazes, Wastelands, only 14 mana lands and whatnot, you won't convince me of a fundamentally different game plan.

And how Trophy is supposed to be the answer to all the problems is also something I can't quite understand. We're talking about a Daze + Wasteland deck here, in what world is it a good idea to give out free basics in a Legacy environment with probably more basics than ever before? People play Decay because it's at least uncounterable. You said it before, 2 mana is a lot for a Daze deck, and Decay is at least a card that doesn't worry about soft permission.

It seems like you take it for granted that at all times during a game of Legacy there's already a planeswalker in play for your opponent. And based on that assumption you say that everything that doesn't kill that pw is bad. That's not how it works. We're not a 4 Thoughtseize + 4 Daze + 4-5 Force plus 6+ big creatures that don't die to W6 deck for nothing. Our primary plan to deal with anything that's more powerful than our cards is tempoing the opponent to a point where those cards can't resolve or become a liability. If that strategy isn't something for you you should maybe play a different deck, one with tons of on-board answers to walkers and no Dazes.

Or you try something I'd tested before in my Shadow build, which is running 3 Vampire Hexmage out of the sideboard as my primary Chalice answer. Against planeswalker-heavy decks they double as repeated removal spells, especially with Lilly bringing them back over and over again.

Fox
11-06-2019, 03:20 PM
Oh I don‘t think JVP is great, it‘s more a sentiment of: if you‘re going to [mis]use JVP in a non-Grisel deck, you need a better plan than flashing back something for blind value. The UB/UBx Shadow decks have never recovered from wotc banning the only playable black 1-drop (that you can play on turn 1, DRS). No matter what you do, you can‘t recapture Shadow‘s take on 8-4-2 Delver structure (8x 1drop threat, 4x 2drop, 2x big thing like TNN or Gurmag). At least back in DRS times you realized you were on 12-0-2 structure, and you had to answer Chalice when you were deckbuilding.

Without DRS, many lists are forgetting the need to submit Shadow decks with introspection. While Delver/Daze/Wasteland are legacy staples, they are being undermined by the Hymns/Drowns/Bitterblossoms of legacy which drag games to points where the Delver core can‘t compete effectively. While JVP might not be effective at generating win %, he‘s at least a coherent addition to the strategy of lost land drops (Daze/Wasteland). Staple Trophy onto JVP and you have access to a plan of not just operating within the confines of poor mana, but also dragging your opponent down to your level as well.

It‘s not nearly as effective as UBx Reanimator‘s JVPs being able to toy with opponents by endlessly re-presenting him back to the board [if not exiled] and never really losing the Reanimate effect they used to force opponent to pass the ‘discard your removal or counterspell‘ test again...but then again, no deck can really compete with JVP + Entomb to find either half of the combo (as Entomb Reanimate is now possible).

On Trophy as mana denial/low mana environment:
It may not work at all vs lands if your opponent is on DnT/Gobbos/Merfolk. It may win all by itself vs Depths (instant speed Rain of Salt). Most decks are between those points though, so you need to know the format and constantly assess the gamestate. Are they Fetching around your Wastelands? How many basics do they have left? How many basics of one color type? Will they actually bleed out resources to protect Trophy (+/- JVP) from exposing a fatal flaw? Did they lose too many blue cards against our not-blue, not-creature cards to not die to the undercosted 1-drop?

You have a new way to play, where you start approaching matchups like UW and realizing that if you have 2x Wastealnd and you murder 2x basic Plains, you kinda just win no matter how many Plows and Snapcasters and Mentors they have in hand. Maybe now that SB Needle that was doing you no favors comes in here and in the absence of a better play, you‘re not above naming a Fetch on turn 1. You play a cards Decay/Wraith instead and you just told your opponent that all they have to do is kill your dudes and they‘ll win by default.

All the above stuff on Trophy is just the proactive mode; you can still use the reactive side to remove permanents generated by mana-rich investments. Preferentially use cards that are inherently offensive/proactive and defensive/reactive in nature. If you‘re going to monitor the gamestate, give yourself tools to hijack it.

kombatkiwi
11-07-2019, 12:31 AM
Did they lose too many blue cards against our not-blue, not-creature cards to not die to the undercosted 1-drop?
I'm going to need a quick rundown on why you think this applies to Trophy and not Hymn, the spell which actually takes away multiple resources from the opponent when it resolves. (I expect something like "Hymn doesn't do anything if topdecked against resolved PW" filtered through a thesaurus).

The goal with a deck like Shadow should be to warp the tempo of the game in such a way that the discussion is moved away from “if you kill my dudes I definitely lose and have no backup plan“ and towards “we are now going to fight over not-creature things, like mana and Library‘s CA and JVP maybe becoming a PW.“ Build the deck to pursue those plans until the opponent is unable to deal with undercosted P/T values owing to a mismatch of their remaining tools and their intended speed (that they weren‘t able to operate at).
Again, this is exactly how I think about Hymn to Tourach, as one of these 'not creature things'


Hymn is a separate thing, but we can use the complete absence of Shardless/Czech/Grixis Hymn spammers as a signal that Hymn is bad right now.
This argument is still faulty and you haven't addressed my earlier objection


I get that it's a 2-for-1 and it looks good when you're reading the card, but the issue is that there are resilient value engines coming down on turn 2 that Hymn can't fix for you. When your only answers to these value engines are creatures [4 fewer b/c Delver is dead on arrival vs Wrenn] being cast at sorcery speeds, you need to do a reality check on your deckbuilding. Your creatures need better backup from your spells. At the point of deckbuilding, you know that Hymn is a winmore card that only works when everything is going well - thing is, everything is gonna start going poorly as early as their turn 2.

Here is an example of a current Pile deck not playing Hymn:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/dra9st/w6_poker_tournament_report_2nd_in_20191103/
I agree that Hymn doesn't make sense in these decks right now along the following reasons:
A Pile deck doesn't want to keep both players in a super-low-resource state because it wants to get to 4 lands so that it can resolve Jace.
Due to this desire to make land drops it also doesn't want to pick up its own lands and aims to play to later turns where both players have much more opportunity to topdeck.
Because of this, the deck is playing only two 1-mana-discard spells and 0 Dazes: it's much easier for opponents to resolve Wrenn vs this deck than it is against 4x Thoughtseize 4x Daze. Hymn would be worse against opponents that can resolve Wrenn easily, so this Pile deck has e.g. Decay instead. But in a deck where you're aiming to trade a lot of resources away and kill the opponent quickly without giving them as many chances to topdeck, plus you have more ways to stop Wrenn from resolving, Hymn has strengths that it doesn't have in more controlling strategies

If your argument is that TS+FoW+Daze+Hymn still isn't enough to stop the opponent sticking Wrenn reliably and that it's too punishing when they do, then your argument must necessarily be that non-Wrenn Delver-esque decks aren't viable at all, otherwise what additional disruption or better creatures could you add. This might be true but it effectively ends the discussion. I guess your idea is Trophy but I don't think that's the answer (I basically share Izor's same skepticism). If your opponent lets you spend 4 mana and 2 cards to turn your their plains into islands you will just die to JTMS with counter backup, this is not a real suggestion.


Or you try something I'd tested before in my Shadow build, which is running 3 Vampire Hexmage out of the sideboard as my primary Chalice answer. Against planeswalker-heavy decks they double as repeated removal spells, especially with Lilly bringing them back over and over again.
I've considered this and it does give you more slots vs fair decks but
- Getting an X-for-1 on e.g. Moxes from Bomberman or Ballista from Steel Stompy when you kill their Chalice with Ratchet Bomb is pretty good. (Maybe this is a wash because if you put your Bomberman opponents Chalice on 0 it does hurt them a lot). Sometimes you can even get e.g. Trini+Moon or something on 3
- You're just stone dead if your opponent ever resolves Bridge or Moon, which might be acceptable when you have 6 Forces (and maybe Brazen Borrowers) but I'm still not entirely comfortable with
- I'm not sure I have space for extra slots against fair decks anyway

But it obviously does have some other positives, e.g. against moon decks it blocks goblins well

Fox
11-07-2019, 08:22 AM
Hymn attacks a resource that doesn't matter unless you're winning/poised to be winning. The moment they reach two mana and play any onboard value engine you are now losing. Hymn might be a "good" card b/c it's a 2-for-1, but they're drawing 2 cards a turn and you're not really addressing that issue by taking a turn off to Hymn. Trophy has multiple decision trees you can follow, one of which includes killing their turn 2 value engine such that you can do things like play a Delver again (looks pretty bad when opponent has a Wrenn, you Hymn them, and yeah...you still can't deploy a Delver while each turn Wasteland and Daze keep accruing irrelevance).

This is one of those points where you need to look at your deck's composition and apply the theoretical scenario of "my opponent has a Wrenn." Of your 60 card deck 18 lands + 4 Delver + 4 Daze + 4 FoW + # of Drown/Hymn = 33'ish cards that can't really fix the problem. Then you add 8-10 cantrips and 4 Wraith, which will only be used to find Gurmag or Shadow. There's not any left over space in your deck to do things differently - so you now have this deck that can only be played one way; the result is that all your individual player skill doesn't really matter. You're simply managing a deck, and the opponent has the luxury of now playing against predictable forced moves. All your moves are pretty slow as well (sorcery speed and summoning sick); your deck is lacking tools to incite an opponent to enter your turn with any tapped lands.

Now Hymn can randomly win a game all by itself, it's just not reliably converting and we know that b/c the Hymn spammers are nowhere to be found. We're at a point in legacy where you need to attack a different resource with multiple card types, rather than wholesale hand destruction. When it comes to other Delver decks every single successful one is playing Wrenn, or Oko (which can kill a Wrenn), or Dreadhorde (the pseudo-PW) - so yes, I am saying that is the case. Delver + Hymn is a losing proposition, Delver + any [or all] of those is how you win.

In terms of the UW example with Trophy, just let them begin the game with JTMS in play (turn 0) with this condition: you can't use white mana - this is a pretty easy win for Shadow. People that play UW understand that [if they have the tools] they have to fight over anything that threatens their access to white mana. Few decks outside of R/G Lands can really call them out on that weak point, but do understand that this is the weakest point of UW. Any time you make the white side of their deck count for nothing, they lose convincingly.

It's important to step back after reading what a card does and figure out what it really means. In the case of Trophy you're not just backing up a train of dudes, you're looking to create a subgame your opponent has to sink resources into, such that they can't sit there focusing solely on killing your one-dimensional combat step wincon. You can't create that subgame by throwing raw power [Hymn] at them b/c it's already outclassed by their raw power [Wrenn/Oko mostly]. It's definitely easier to give up and just play Wrenn/Oko/Dreadhorde + Delver, but you can still play dudes-only if your spells are creating a virtual not-creature threat, while also having dual utility to support your dudes.

Mr. Safety
11-07-2019, 08:54 AM
I'm not sure if this card has been discussed in the thread yet, but I was thinking about how Shadow can be a quasi-combo deck on occasion so I started researching tutor effects to support that end (disclaimer: I am also attempting Stifle + Dreadnought alongside Shadow.)

Lim-Dul's Vault

Pros
1) It's a customizable life-loss card that can enable best-case Shadow scenarios at instant speed
2) It can set up your top 5 draws to optimizing sequencing
3) It tutors the exact card you need to the top of your deck, provided you have enough life to support it
3a) Turn 2, 8-9 cards drawn, 51 -52 cards left in deck/5 = 10-11 max life paid to tutor the exact card you need
3b) Singleton sideboard cards get much more reliable due to (3a) supporting the Shadow plan.
4) It breaks a Brainstorm lock if you don't have a fetchland or Ponder available

Cons
1) It costs 2 mana
2) It doesn't actually put the card into your hand

It seems like the pros outweigh the cons, but it's still a 2 mana card in a Daze/Wasteland/18 land tempo deck. Not only that, it's a restrictive cost requiring both of your colors (making basic lands much harder to justify.)

I would love to hear thoughts on this. I'm thinking of going up to 2 copies in my Shadow/Dreadnought list (along with upping the land count to 20 lands.)

Tobitzki
11-07-2019, 11:42 AM
Lim-Dul's Vault




I used to run it as a fun-of in otherwise-regular UB DS for a while, for all the reasons you state, plus an emergency out to Chalice fetching my MD Ratchet Bomb. (I posted this somewhere back in thread). Street Wraith was cute with it to sometimes actually put the card in your hand. The whole tech is probably on the cute side, tbh, but it worked well enough for me. I'd be skeptical running it a) w/o Street Wraiths and b) next to a plan B that also creates card disadvantage in the Dreadnoughts, and I'd definitely not run 2. Your combo here isn't powerful enough to warrant that kind of cost for a tutor: Even UB Omnitell, a deck that by all means ends the game when resolving its business spell, ran 2 at the most if I'm not mistaken.

kombatkiwi
11-08-2019, 01:05 AM
Hymn attacks a resource that doesn't matter unless you're winning/poised to be winning. The moment they reach two mana and play any onboard value engine you are now losing. Hymn might be a "good" card b/c it's a 2-for-1, but they're drawing 2 cards a turn and you're not really addressing that issue by taking a turn off to Hymn. Trophy has multiple decision trees you can follow, one of which includes killing their turn 2 value engine such that you can do things like play a Delver again (looks pretty bad when opponent has a Wrenn, you Hymn them, and yeah...you still can't deploy a Delver while each turn Wasteland and Daze keep accruing irrelevance).

This is one of those points where you need to look at your deck's composition and apply the theoretical scenario of "my opponent has a Wrenn." Of your 60 card deck 18 lands + 4 Delver + 4 Daze + 4 FoW + # of Drown/Hymn = 33'ish cards that can't really fix the problem. Then you add 8-10 cantrips and 4 Wraith, which will only be used to find Gurmag or Shadow. There's not any left over space in your deck to do things differently - so you now have this deck that can only be played one way; the result is that all your individual player skill doesn't really matter. You're simply managing a deck, and the opponent has the luxury of now playing against predictable forced moves. All your moves are pretty slow as well (sorcery speed and summoning sick); your deck is lacking tools to incite an opponent to enter your turn with any tapped lands.
If my pile opponent plays a wrenn and ticks up and then I trophy it and they find a basic I've traded 2 mana for 2 mana and I am down 2 cards. Not interested. If my opponent is on RUG they can't find a basic but they are still up a card and they have Daze/Snare to fight over Trophy. So if my opponent resolves Wrenn against my Hymn deck then sure, I might be behind. The same is true if they resolve Jace against my UB creature deck (or Moon, or Chalice, or B2B, or whatever). Rather than panic and say "oh shit my deck must include clean answers to this resolved permanent" I am hedging towards making it difficult to resolve the Wrenn in the first place (with my 4x TS 4x Daze 4x FoW 4x Hymn deck). Maybe this approach is still not a winning strategy against the Wrenn decks, but I can't help but feel that if that is true then the solution must be "play a wrenn deck" not "play a bug deck with assassins trophy in it"


Now Hymn can randomly win a game all by itself, it's just not reliably converting and we know that b/c the Hymn spammers are nowhere to be found.
I wrote why I think Hymn is bad in Pile decks atm but could be good in aggressive strategies and you still haven't addressed it and just keep repeating this same vapid point over and over


We're at a point in legacy where you need to attack a different resource with multiple card types, rather than wholesale hand destruction. When it comes to other Delver decks every single successful one is playing Wrenn, or Oko (which can kill a Wrenn), or Dreadhorde (the pseudo-PW) - so yes, I am saying that is the case. Delver + Hymn is a losing proposition, Delver + any [or all] of those is how you win.
Your explanation for "why" here is meaningless ("we're at a point in legacy where you need to attack a different resource with multiple card types") so if you peel that away then what you're saying is "how you win is by playing these decklists that are currently winning" which is hardly a masterstroke of analysis.


In terms of the UW example with Trophy, just let them begin the game with JTMS in play (turn 0) with this condition: you can't use white mana - this is a pretty easy win for Shadow. People that play UW understand that [if they have the tools] they have to fight over anything that threatens their access to white mana. Few decks outside of R/G Lands can really call them out on that weak point, but do understand that this is the weakest point of UW. Any time you make the white side of their deck count for nothing, they lose convincingly.
Turn 0 JTMS with only access to blue mana might be losing but that's not a realistic analogue. If you're hitting 2 of their basic plains with trophy DURING A GAME then it means they must have had access to white mana at some point. They can make sure they don't get their W sources deleted for free by only fetching when they have a W spell ready to go. Trying to thread this needle with a counterable LD spell from a BUG delver/midrange deck is going to be pretty fucking hard. It's not like lands where you just recur Ghost Quarter for free over and over.


It's important to step back after reading what a card does and figure out what it really means. In the case of Trophy you're not just backing up a train of dudes, you're looking to create a subgame your opponent has to sink resources into, such that they can't sit there focusing solely on killing your one-dimensional combat step wincon. You can't create that subgame by throwing raw power [Hymn] at them b/c it's already outclassed by their raw power [Wrenn/Oko mostly]. It's definitely easier to give up and just play Wrenn/Oko/Dreadhorde + Delver, but you can still play dudes-only if your spells are creating a virtual not-creature threat, while also having dual utility to support your dudes.

Again, this is just a word salad, watch:

In the case of Hymn you're not just backing up a train of dudes, you're looking to create a subgame your opponent has to sink resources into (either they get 2-for-1ed by Hymn or they have to spend resources fighting over it), such that they can't sit there focusing solely on killing your one-dimensional combat step wincon. You can't create that subgame by throwing removal [trophy] at them b/c it's only a 1-for-1 (or a 1-for-2 if the opp has basics) and you're trying to hit things that already provided value on etb [Wrenn/Oko mostly].
This makes much more sense than shit like 'your power is outclassed by their power' as if it's some kind of DBZ episode


Lim-Dul's Vault
In a non-combo tempo deck there's zero chance I play a 2 cmc spell that's card disadvantage.
I think Plunge into Darkness is probably better and I wouldn't play that either

Mr. Safety
11-08-2019, 07:08 AM
{regarding Lim Dul's Vault} In a non-combo tempo deck there's zero chance I play a 2 cmc spell that's card disadvantage. I think Plunge into Darkness is probably better and I wouldn't play that either

I would be playing Stifle + Dreadnought. I don't know if that is a strong enough reason to play Vault yet, but it has synergy with Death's Shadow by being a customizable life-loss tool while setting up a Dreadnought combo. If Stifle is dead in hand, Vault for a Dreadnought. If no threats, Vault for a Shadow on top while setting it up to be outside of Bolt range/bigger than a Tarmogoyf. If I have three mana, Vault + Brainstorm gets me whatever I need to protect Shadow/Dreadnought in specific situations. It also increases my odds of getting a key sideboard card (ie Ratchet Bomb against Chalice) while being a 2 mana way to do it, that plays around Chalice. I think this is tipping towards magical Christmasland, but I would still like to try it out. It may fail or underperform, and that's fine. Then I just move on with better tech like adding Spell Snare or Stubborn Denial back in.

Fox
11-08-2019, 08:45 AM
If you're playing Hymn to beat Wrenn & company, it's not going to work, and it doesn't matter how aggressive your strategy is. It's not a matter of if they get Wrenn, it's when - and that happens to be turn 2. Yes you can Hymn them after that, maybe you can even Hymn them twice and only hit spells and get a win b/c of it; but that doesn't make it reliable. That Wrenn on board is catastrophic for you; you just lost 12 of your best cards from having any future impact (Delver/Daze/Wasteland) until you fix that problem. Hymn just defers that problem to turns down the road (vs. a +1 that grows their hand) until you can potentially deploy a Shadow/Gurmag.

This is not a vapid point; you can't get back into enough games from behind with Hymn and that's why the best Hymn decks dropped it. Your deck doesn't have a recovery mechanism, and Hymn doesn't change that. It's great and wonderful to say "I just won't let Wrenn resolve," but the thing is...RUG Delver is a better deck, and he will resolve. During deck construction you need to account for scenarios where opponents have a Wrenn (+/- other recent design mistakes).

You're missing the point of Trophy - you see I know it's counterable. In that example, I actively want a UW player to play around it and be forced to trade cards with it and enter my turn tapped down; that is the point of an effective distraction. The last thing you want is to give opponents the luxury of sitting back and playing against exactly one thing [the dude train]. I certainly understand the sentiment that if they sit back you Hymn them, but their topdecks are way better than yours. Your threats don't exactly line up well against JTMS floating Plows, Snapcasters, Oko turning them into elk, Dreadhorde casting what you took from their hand anyway. This isn't like they just drew the right card and then we went back to a real game of magic, these cards persist and continue to be problematic. Once your low-to-the-ground + Hymn window of opportunity is gone, it isn't coming back.

Wrenn takes over games reliably (even from behind), Hymn doesn't. One of these cards is more powerful and reliable and proactive by itself. As long as Wrenn is legal, he's has successfully power creep'd Hymn to the legacy has-been tavern where it can have a drink with Werebear and Mongoose and all the other cards whose era has ended. This has nothing to do with DBZ, there are two metrics for every legacy deck: power and consistency. You can have all the consistency you want with cantrips, but it really doesn't matter if you're cantripping into underwhelming tools (see every UW/x Blade deck). I wouldn't get too hung up on the word power, you can read it as payoff or value or whatever you want. The problem with using 2-for-1/1-for-1-type equivalents is that you're missing the need to identify angles of attack/power cores/points of strategic focus [or whatever you want to call it]. Shadow isn't playing x-for-x magic, it's a combo deck and you need to put tools together to create virtual advantage which can't really be enumerated in those x-for-x equivalents.

Edit: just have to be aware that Hymn lives in that pool of ~53 cards that isn‘t called “my only way back into the game“ [Gurmag/Shadow]. Doesn‘t matter how much consistency you jam into that pile; it‘s too dilute.

kombatkiwi
11-11-2019, 03:36 AM
If you're playing Hymn to beat Wrenn & company, it's not going to work, and it doesn't matter how aggressive your strategy is. It's not a matter of if they get Wrenn, it's when - and that happens to be turn 2. Yes you can Hymn them after that, maybe you can even Hymn them twice and only hit spells and get a win b/c of it; but that doesn't make it reliable. That Wrenn on board is catastrophic for you; you just lost 12 of your best cards from having any future impact (Delver/Daze/Wasteland) until you fix that problem. Hymn just defers that problem to turns down the road (vs. a +1 that grows their hand) until you can potentially deploy a Shadow/Gurmag.

- I'm not suggesting playing Delver and Hymn together
- Hymn hitting lands is also fine because it keeps your Dazes/Waste/TS live and makes it harder for your opponent to find the mana to cast shit


This is not a vapid point; you can't get back into enough games from behind with Hymn and that's why the best Hymn decks dropped it. Your deck doesn't have a recovery mechanism, and Hymn doesn't change that. It's great and wonderful to say "I just won't let Wrenn resolve," but the thing is...RUG Delver is a better deck, and he will resolve. During deck construction you need to account for scenarios where opponents have a Wrenn (+/- other recent design mistakes).

The recovery mechanism against wrenn is "drop a big threat quickly", which the quote-unquote 'best hymn decks' cannot do. This is the point I was trying to make in the previous post. Again you insist that "X card must only be used in Y deck in Z role otherwise it's a mistake". (Regardless of whether it's not a smart plan in this specific instance, the argument carries no weight)


You're missing the point of Trophy - you see I know it's counterable. In that example, I actively want a UW player to play around it and be forced to trade cards with it and enter my turn tapped down; that is the point of an effective distraction. The last thing you want is to give opponents the luxury of sitting back and playing against exactly one thing [the dude train].
I emphasize the fact that it's counterable because of your questionable suggestion that you can colourscrew UW players off their white sources with it. If you somehow get into the exact situation that you can hail mary waste a card to Sea's Claim their final plains you're going to want to make sure that shit works. In 90% of situations it's just a Doom Blade variant that gives your opponent a land, which a lot of the time they will be happy to let happen. Even if it's targeting something seriously scary (e.g. Jace), the PW already gained value on ETB and now that play still put you slightly behind. You don't have better topdecks than them and are just delaying the inevitable.


I certainly understand the sentiment that if they sit back you Hymn them, but their topdecks are way better than yours. Your threats don't exactly line up well against JTMS floating Plows, Snapcasters, Oko turning them into elk, Dreadhorde casting what you took from their hand anyway. This isn't like they just drew the right card and then we went back to a real game of magic, these cards persist and continue to be problematic. Once your low-to-the-ground + Hymn window of opportunity is gone, it isn't coming back.
Trophy is also rubbish vs most of this, so I'm not sure what your point is. I guess (to borrow your language) I'm trying to maximise strength in the "low to the ground" window rather than spread my deck into a kind of protracted midgame topdeck situation, where you definitely aren't favoured even with a couple of BG removal spells. Like it might *feel* bad to sit through situations like "oh my opponent resolved X, I guess I'm dead", but skewing your deck by including removal to deal with this isn't correct if it makes you lose more games in the long run (even in those games where it kills an Okos or whatever it might not even be helping you that much).

Part of this paragraph is why I think you're just on a totally different planet: "Your threats don't exactly line up well against JTMS floating plows". If you're using any Shadow build and your opponent has resolved a JTMS you are 99% dead. Including 2-mana Path-to-Jace-Exile in your deck is not going to change this at all, and the few games you do hit the perfect situation (you have 1 shadow and they're forced to tap out for Jace and they bounce your shadow and then you untap and trophy and go on to win the game) are not going to be worth the losses elsewhere.


Wrenn takes over games reliably (even from behind), Hymn doesn't. One of these cards is more powerful and reliable and proactive by itself. As long as Wrenn is legal, he's has successfully power creep'd Hymn to the legacy has-been tavern where it can have a drink with Werebear and Mongoose and all the other cards whose era has ended. This has nothing to do with DBZ, there are two metrics for every legacy deck: power and consistency. You can have all the consistency you want with cantrips, but it really doesn't matter if you're cantripping into underwhelming tools (see every UW/x Blade deck). I wouldn't get too hung up on the word power, you can read it as payoff or value or whatever you want. The problem with using 2-for-1/1-for-1-type equivalents is that you're missing the need to identify angles of attack/power cores/points of strategic focus [or whatever you want to call it]. Shadow isn't playing x-for-x magic, it's a combo deck and you need to put tools together to create virtual advantage which can't really be enumerated in those x-for-x equivalents.
We're back into word-salad territory. This sounds like "it's wrong to not play a Wrenn deck", which might be true (as I said in my previous post), but seems entirely separate to the Hymn/Trophy issue.
It's meaningless to call something a combo deck when the "combo" gets nuked by Strix and Plow (also why I don't like LDV). You're an interactive fair deck with FoW and Thoughtseize, you certainly can reduce it to x-for-x magic. Yes, you can get virtual CA off your low land count but this is what delver decks have been doing forever, and nobody calls those combo decks. (In fact now with Wrenn people seem more likely to call them midrange decks). Just because you can attack with a 10/10 doesn't mean Shadow = Infect


Edit: just have to be aware that Hymn lives in that pool of ~53 cards that isn‘t called “my only way back into the game“ [Gurmag/Shadow]. Doesn‘t matter how much consistency you jam into that pile; it‘s too dilute.
This is just a different flavour of salad because you're not using the words "consistency" and "dilute" in ways that have clear meanings. What are the implications of the statement you are making?
- Ways to get back into the game (creatures) are key, we must cut counters and discard for more creatures?
- Should we cut cantrips too? Or are those considered an acceptable "dilution" of the pile?
- Does extra removal actually count as a way back into the game? Are you just reiterating that trophy is good or do you mean something else? Which is what? I have no idea.
It sure would be nice if you could provide a concrete illustration of your ideas (i.e. a decklist)

Edit:
This list just won the challenge
It seems like a really solid version of the Delver list and I think it's a good metagame call in the modo meta of mostly RUG/Storm/Reanimator

3 Grave
2 Sea
9 Fetchlands
4 Wasteland

4 Delver
4 Wraith
4 Shadow
2 Angler

4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
2 Push
2 Snuff Out
2 FON
2 Reanimate

SB
2 Submerge
2 Bomb
2 Engineer
2 Hymn
2 Stub
3 Surgical
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Lili's Triumph

I think this is slightly too much gy hate in the SB and I'd like some more options against non-delver fair decks (which are the only matchups that really punish you for the "dude-into-dude-into-dude" plan, as our bombastic friend likes to describe it)

aedrew
11-22-2019, 07:06 PM
I updated the primer.
I added Basic_Swamp's lates 1st place list from the recent Legacy Challenge.
I also added entries for Force of Negation, Plague Engineer, Mystical Dispute, Contentious Plan, Karakas, Liliana's Triumph, Winter Orb, and Submerge. I retired the entry for Throne of Geth as I think Contentious Plan basically replaces it. I am considering retiring Darkblast, Massacre, Toxic Deluge as they do not see much play anymore, but have left them for now. Any comments or suggestions for the primer are welcome.

Mr. Safety
11-25-2019, 07:47 AM
I updated the primer.
I added Basic_Swamp's lates 1st place list from the recent Legacy Challenge.
I also added entries for Force of Negation, Plague Engineer, Mystical Dispute, Contentious Plan, Karakas, Liliana's Triumph, Winter Orb, and Submerge. I retired the entry for Throne of Geth as I think Contentious Plan basically replaces it. I am considering retiring Darkblast, Massacre, Toxic Deluge as they do not see much play anymore, but have left them for now. Any comments or suggestions for the primer are welcome.

I think with the banning of W6 Death and Taxes will be played in large numbers again, so I wouldn't cut out the mass removal section just yet.

kombatkiwi
11-26-2019, 02:46 AM
New list to test for no-Wrenn format

4 Vantress Gargoyle
4 Deaths Shadow
4 Street Wraith

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

2 Dismember
1 Fatal Push
2 Stubborn Denial
1 Reanimate

4 Wasteland
2 Underground Sea
4 Watery Grave
8 Fetchlands

Notes:
- Cut Jace and added 3rd and 4th Gargoyle for what I expect is a slight power-level upgrade and also making all the creatures bolt-immune
- Cut 1 Reanimate for 4th Hymn to Tourach as without Jaces it's harder to have double-hymn when you want it and Hymn is also the best combo with Gargoyle
- Cut 2 Preordains for 2 Stubs. Without Jace it's less necessary to fill your graveyard quickly so cantrips are slightly less important and stub is better as a tempo play with Gargoyle
- Cut Maindeck FON for 4th Wasteland: 2 fewer cantrips mean adding a land is semi-warranted (ok it's not really a 'land' but it does help cast gargoyle and it's 0-mana interaction) and without the Jaces you are slightly less insulated against 2-for-1ing yourself so losing the FON seems reasonable

SB is basically the same as before something like
2 FON
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Last Hope
2 Surgical
1 Infernal Contract
X Removal depending on meta (Submerge, Edict, 3rd Bomb, DON, Engineer, Submerge, Darkblast etc etc)

Losing the jace for whats basically a vanilla beater might make the midrange / control matchups slightly worse
This could be addressed by adding more haymaker cards in the SB like Narset or something but I think the 2 Liliana and the Infernal Contract are probably enough

Mr. Safety
12-04-2019, 06:18 PM
How problematic is Veil of Summer for this deck? I've been toying around with maindeck Toxic Deluge to avoid the hexproof problem of Veil. Barcelona had Bant Miracles take 1st place, i think it will gain traction moving forward in this new metagame.

kombatkiwi
12-05-2019, 12:18 AM
How problematic is Veil of Summer for this deck? I've been toying around with maindeck Toxic Deluge to avoid the hexproof problem of Veil. Barcelona had Bant Miracles take 1st place, i think it will gain traction moving forward in this new metagame.

I think probably a lot

I think the deck relied on Hymn for grinding vs other fair decks and that's not a realistic plan anymore. Before, you could go under the RUG decks and get some virtual CA when the #1 removal spell in the format was Bolt and your threats were bigger than Goyfs. You're still a deck that aims to play efficient threats and 1-for-1 the opponent, except now the efficient threats die to the top removal spell (plow not bolt) and the 1-for-1 with discard/counters plan lines up really badly against Veil. (They're playing icefang coatl too which is also super annoying).

Id like for this to not be true and it's possible that there are different sb options to fight the new versions of miracles but I'm not feeling super confident about it at the moment.
Also, not having green in your deck to play your own veils is a big opportunity cost. (It's possible that there is a reasonable version of BUG shadow but I haven't put much thought into it).

I wouldn't cut push/dismember for maindeck deluge though (3 mana is really a lot and if your opponent is playing a creature for you to kill it's more likely that they're tapping out anyway).

Mr. Safety
12-05-2019, 09:47 AM
I think probably a lot

I think the deck relied on Hymn for grinding vs other fair decks and that's not a realistic plan anymore. Before, you could go under the RUG decks and get some virtual CA when the #1 removal spell in the format was Bolt and your threats were bigger than Goyfs. You're still a deck that aims to play efficient threats and 1-for-1 the opponent, except now the efficient threats die to the top removal spell (plow not bolt) and the 1-for-1 with discard/counters plan lines up really badly against Veil. (They're playing icefang coatl too which is also super annoying).

Id like for this to not be true and it's possible that there are different sb options to fight the new versions of miracles but I'm not feeling super confident about it at the moment.
Also, not having green in your deck to play your own veils is a big opportunity cost. (It's possible that there is a reasonable version of BUG shadow but I haven't put much thought into it).

I wouldn't cut push/dismember for maindeck deluge though (3 mana is really a lot and if your opponent is playing a creature for you to kill it's more likely that they're tapping out anyway).

I think the deck would have to go to 19-20 lands to viably play Deluge maindeck. I also think that there isn't a lot of room for cutting spot removal for Deluge. It would have to be Hymn that gets cut down for the Deluge (and it kills your own delvers.) Sideboard only I think for this deck, but I think it gets a lot more important in the sideboard.

kombatkiwi
12-08-2019, 11:19 PM
I won a box playing a small locals event (10-11 players) with the maindeck from my previous post
SB:
2 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Force of Negation
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Plague Engineer
2 Liliana's Triumph
1 Infernal Contract

2-0 LED Dredge
2-0 Eldrazi Stompy
0-2 Elves
2-1 RUG Sneak and Show
Top4: 2-0 Elves
Finals: 2-0 LED Dredge

Seems ok
The plan of "Hymn them and stub the veil" worked against the Show and Tell player

Mr. Safety
12-09-2019, 07:17 AM
I won a box playing a small locals event (10-11 players) with the maindeck from my previous post
SB:
2 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Force of Negation
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Plague Engineer
2 Liliana's Triumph
1 Infernal Contract

2-0 LED Dredge
2-0 Eldrazi Stompy
0-2 Elves
2-1 RUG Sneak and Show
Top4: 2-0 Elves
Finals: 2-0 LED Dredge

Seems ok
The plan of "Hymn them and stub the veil" worked against the Show and Tell player

Nice! It's interesting that you went 0-2 against Elves in the swiss, then went 2-0 in t4 against Elves. What changed? I'm assuming with a small event it was the same player. I'm also giving a big hooray for beating Eldrazi, which seems to be a pretty tough matchup.

kombatkiwi
12-10-2019, 12:28 AM
Nice! It's interesting that you went 0-2 against Elves in the swiss, then went 2-0 in t4 against Elves. What changed? I'm assuming with a small event it was the same player. I'm also giving a big hooray for beating Eldrazi, which seems to be a pretty tough matchup.

Luck
I know the mu is favoured which is why I agreed not to split the top4 even though I lost in the swiss.

That eldrazi was the small aggro version with like Endless One and stuff which is much easier to beat than any of the bigger versions (monolith / post) that can reliably pay for an Eye of Ugin activation

Mr. Safety
12-13-2019, 09:46 AM
How do you feel about only playing 9 threats (I'm counting Reanimate as a threat because it can bring back a Wraith/DS/Gargoyle)? It seems pretty thin. Most Shadow lists are playing the typical threshold template of 12 (4 Delver, 4 Shadow, 2 Angler, 2 Reanimate.) I'm curious about using Gargoyle over my current fascination with Stifle + Dreadnought. It's less fragile and the beats are real at 5/4. However, I worry about it being too conditional. It didn't perform very well in my tests in Dreadstill.

kombatkiwi
12-15-2019, 10:36 PM
How do you feel about only playing 9 threats (I'm counting Reanimate as a threat because it can bring back a Wraith/DS/Gargoyle)? It seems pretty thin. Most Shadow lists are playing the typical threshold template of 12 (4 Delver, 4 Shadow, 2 Angler, 2 Reanimate.) I'm curious about using Gargoyle over my current fascination with Stifle + Dreadnought. It's less fragile and the beats are real at 5/6. However, I worry about it being too conditional. It didn't perform very well in my tests in Dreadstill.

It's 5/4 unfortunately, not 5/6
# of threats hasn't been an issue
4 Hymn 4 Thoughtseize is useful to make sure the opponent's cards go to the graveyard, I'm not sure which numbers of these you had in your Dreadnought deck but that is a factor.
I was previously playing a version with 4 Shadow 2 Stalker 2 Reanimate which is even fewer threats (depending on if you count jace as a threat or not).

Mr. Safety
12-16-2019, 07:11 AM
My threats:

4x Shadow
3x Dreadnought
3x Dark Confidant
2x Brazen Borrower

I'm trying to build it so it ends up being a decent mid-range deck with the option to occasionally win fast with a Dreadnought. I have found that the Dreadnought plan tends to be risky against fair decks, so I made it a smaller emphasis. It's important to note that I am playing 0 Reanimate/Street Wraith and I'm instead trying to gain card advantage with Bobs rather than the Wraith/Reanimate tempo plan. I have a few flex spots I can mess around with, one of them might become Reanimate. Unearth is also an option for my version because I don't have anything above 3 mana and Bob has less predictable life-loss than Wraiths.

If I went with Gargoyles I would straight swap with Dreadnought, drop the Stifles and play more Hymns.

Mr. Safety
01-03-2020, 07:05 AM
I'm curious if anyone has been piloting this deck lately. I did a test with Phyrexian Dreadnoughts, which didn't go as well as hoped, so I'm on a fairly 'stock' list of UB Shadow ATM. It has been really fun, and a ton more consistent than anything I've done with Dreadnought.

List:

4x Delver of Secrets
4x Death's Shadow
2x Gurmag Angler
4x Street Wraith
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Thoughtseize
2x Hymn to Tourach
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
1x Force of Negation
2x Fatal Push
1x Dismember
1x Drown in the Loch
1x Reanimate
4x Polluted Delta
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Marsh Flats
4x Watery Grave
1x Island
1x Swamp
4x Wasteland

Sideboard
2x Bitterblossom
2x Ratchet Bomb
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Toxic Deluge
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Diabolic Edict
2x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Brazen Borrower


Borrower has been spectacular, just love that card. The big conundrum at this point is whether to play Hymns or not. I haven't run into that many Veil of Summer yet, but it would be a blowout if I don't have Force/Daze to protect it. I also want to get a 2nd Reanimate into the deck, it has been just nutty good. I could cut a Daze I guess, but the only other spot is Hymns really. The blue count for the Forces is only at 22, which seems a bit low for a deck that basically always wants to cast it for 'free'. That's why I haven't cut the Force of Negation from the maindeck yet, it's just so good to have 5 forces against some decks.

kombatkiwi
01-04-2020, 02:19 AM
HJkaiser Grixis Delver has been having a lot of success with the SB plan of 1 Mystic Sanctuary and 2 Painful Truths
In this deck you can do a similar thing with Infernal Contract, which is very appealing to me
I already thought that Infernal Contract was really good in the UWx fair matchups and the ability to recur it with a fetchland (or daze your Sanctuary to keep it going) seems really cool

Overall though I think this deck struggles a lot more against UWgx Coatl/Oko decks compared to Grixis because it can't grind with its creatures (it only has vanilla attackers and nothing like Dreadhorde Arcanist / Young Pyro / Bedlam Reveler)

Izor
01-05-2020, 06:24 PM
As sad as that is, Between Oko, Coatl and Veil of Summer being in almost every fair deck at the moment UB Shadow just doesn't have a place in Legacy beyond being a Budget Tempo deck. All of those cards are absolute gamebreakers whenever they resolve against us.

Like, you can do reasonably well in tournaments, just like you can always have the Daze for Oko and Coatl and your opponent never drawing any Veils, but if anything else happens you lose. Wasteland is probably worse than it ever was in Legacy right now too. The only Delver strategy that sort of lives up to the metagame right now is the one with removal spells that don't get Veil'd and that can burn an opponent out from behind an Oko and some Coatls. All of those Oko decks lose vs powerful combo decks, so I guess all we can do is wait and hope that those combo decks push Oko out of the format for a while, at which point we have our niche back as the best fair deck against combo decks.

Maximus
01-09-2020, 03:24 PM
I am of the opinion that this deck has gotten considerably worse over the course of the last year. UBx Delver decks have pretty much always been an amalgamation of Good Cards and will likely be around for a long time to come, but I think that mostly means evolving up to Grixis or Team America (and that thread is woefully outdated). There's a lot to be said between our threats not being diverse enough like kombatkiwi mentioned, a snapcaster land making STP better than ever, wasteland being worse than ever, and 2019 power creep in general. Adding red or green seems the best way to solve this, but in doing so we forfeit our namesake card.

Again, this is legacy and you can run anyone over with anything. This is just what I have been considering in the past few weeks.

Mr. Safety
01-10-2020, 04:52 PM
Well, this is still a lot of fun to learn & play.

I'm trying to fill out the last 3 cards of my sideboard. I had 2x Blue Elemental Blast and a 2nd Edict, but I think a different 1-mana counterspell would be better now that w6 is gone. Edict was for the prevalence of depths decks, which have showed up much less frequently. Dispel, Spell Pierce, and Flusterstorm come to mind immediately. I am leaning towards Dispel because it can counter Veil of Summer at parity and does much the same as Pyroblast (on the stack.)

Current:
2x ratchet bomb
2x brazen borrower
2x surgical extraction
1x nihil spellbomb
1x liliana, the last hope
1x toxic deluge
2x bitterblossom
1x diabolic edict
3x open

Izor
01-13-2020, 06:06 PM
Mystical Dispute is probably the best one mana counter spell we have access to. Apart from killing a resolved Delver and dodging Veil it does most of what Pyroblast does. Dispel is just too narrow.

Also, I would definitely never leave the house without some Plague Engineers. That card is broken.

Mr. Safety
01-14-2020, 06:53 AM
Mystical Dispute is probably the best one mana counter spell we have access to. Apart from killing a resolved Delver and dodging Veil it does most of what Pyroblast does. Dispel is just too narrow.

Also, I would definitely never leave the house without some Plague Engineers. That card is broken.

How does Mystical Dispute dodge Veil? It would cost the full 3 to attempt to counter it. I can see how it can deal with quite a few other cards (Delver, Jace, Force) but it seems pretty bad against Veil/Pyroblast in particular.

Plague Engineer, if I can get them by Feb 8th, will take 2 slots in my SB. I think I'll keep 1 copy of Blue Elemental Blast in there, so that's my sideboard.

I'm also thinking of dropping to 3 Wasteland, it just doesn't pull the weight it needs to all the time. I was just going to slot in fetch #9, but I'm looking at Castle Locthwain or Creeping Tar Pit. Tar Pit has it's obvious drawbacks, both are really only good in the late game (which is where I want them to be good.) I like the reach of Tar Pit but the card draw of Lochthwain, paired with the lifeloss, could support the Shadow strategy. Mystic Sanctuary seems fairly unreliable to actually do any real work, and I fetch basic Swamp quite often.

Mr. Safety
01-21-2020, 10:02 AM
Has anyone tried Hex Parasite as anti-PW tech in their sideboard? It takes off counters while pumping it up to attack/kill them. It's another 1-drop threat I'm considering to fight the grindy control decks that are PW-heavy. The other alternative is to play something like Pithing Needle or Phyrexian Revoker, but I was also thinking it would be a threat that can also be played under blood moon and can kill Chalice (If I can get it underneath it, or bounce it to get a window.) I understand that Ratchet Bomb/Throne of Geth are both better specifically against the Moon Stompy variants but Hex Parasite would be good if it resolves against Ux decks that rely on PW's.

aedrew
01-21-2020, 12:06 PM
Has anyone tried Hex Parasite as anti-PW tech in their sideboard? It takes off counters while pumping it up to attack/kill them. It's another 1-drop threat I'm considering to fight the grindy control decks that are PW-heavy. The other alternative is to play something like Pithing Needle or Phyrexian Revoker, but I was also thinking it would be a threat that can also be played under blood moon and can kill Chalice (If I can get it underneath it, or bounce it to get a window.) I understand that Ratchet Bomb/Throne of Geth are both better specifically against the Moon Stompy variants but Hex Parasite would be good if it resolves against Ux decks that rely on PW's.

Hex Parasite has been played in modern esper builds, primarily as a way to tank your life that can be tutored with Ranger-Captain of Eos. I can’t imagine it is very effective against the Bant planeswalker decks or chalice because of the mana requirement to actually, say, kill an Oko and because, as you mention, it is stopped by chalice on 1.

Mr. Safety
01-21-2020, 02:07 PM
Hex Parasite has been played in modern esper builds, primarily as a way to tank your life that can be tutored with Ranger-Captain of Eos. I can’t imagine it is very effective against the Bant planeswalker decks or chalice because of the mana requirement to actually, say, kill an Oko and because, as you mention, it is stopped by chalice on 1.

Would you sideboard Pithing Needle or Revoker? I've tried To the Slaughter in the past, but it's a little steep at 3 mana and can be blanked by having just a Snapcaster/Coatl/Strix on board. It might be possible to turn on Delerium, but without Baubles it would likely be pretty tough.

Secretly.A.Bee
01-21-2020, 04:58 PM
Would you sideboard Pithing Needle or Revoker? I've tried To the Slaughter in the past, but it's a little steep at 3 mana and can be blanked by having just a Snapcaster/Coatl/Strix on board. It might be possible to turn on Delerium, but without Baubles it would likely be pretty tough.Needle. It is also able to name lands which gives it the nod in the board instead of revoker 3 or 4.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

aedrew
01-21-2020, 09:00 PM
Would you sideboard Pithing Needle or Revoker? I've tried To the Slaughter in the past, but it's a little steep at 3 mana and can be blanked by having just a Snapcaster/Coatl/Strix on board. It might be possible to turn on Delerium, but without Baubles it would likely be pretty tough.

I think needle and revoker are fine in the matchup but it will still be an uphill battle, so hopefully they help you in other matchups too. I don’t think To the Slaughter is worth it for the reasons you mention and because it is weak to Veil of Summer.

I can’t say I have been happy with any sideboard plan for this matchup. I tried Noxious Grasp, which was ok but not great. Mystical Dispute is quite good. I am starting to think that no amount of sideboard cards will flip the matchup in our favor, but you can steal some wins by pressuring them fast and hard. I think the deck either needs to make more fundamental changes or just write this one off.

Mr. Safety
01-22-2020, 07:34 AM
I think needle and revoker are fine in the matchup but it will still be an uphill battle, so hopefully they help you in other matchups too. I don’t think To the Slaughter is worth it for the reasons you mention and because it is weak to Veil of Summer.

I can’t say I have been happy with any sideboard plan for this matchup. I tried Noxious Grasp, which was ok but not great. Mystical Dispute is quite good. I am starting to think that no amount of sideboard cards will flip the matchup in our favor, but you can steal some wins by pressuring them fast and hard. I think the deck either needs to make more fundamental changes or just write this one off.

Good to know, thanks. I don't expect a lot of it in my local metagame, which is why I'm still fairly comfortable piloting the deck. I think I'm going to just sideboard the 2 Bitterblossoms and cross my fingers. Historically the metagame in Maine has been lighter on blue than almost anywhere else. We see a lot of Moon Stompy, Lands, Depths, Reanimator, Burn, Dredge, Storm, Death and Taxes, and other fringe decks like Goblns. I even played against Enchantress twice in one 5 round tournament! There is a good amount of blue-based decks like UW Stoneblade and Grixis Delver, just in fewer numbers than most areas. While Veil of Summer does show up in Storm decks now I feel that the overall gameplan of Shadow is favored against them with discard, counters, and a fast clock. There may be 1-2 other decks (4c Pile or Bant Miracles) that show up with Veil of Summer, but I don't expect to see a lot of it. It's lower number of blue decks that makes me want to use Dispel: it's a counterspell with applications across a lot of non-blue matchups but still lets me efficiently win stacks. I also think Brazen Borrower is a card that has really helped tip the scales for some matchups. It's so tempo-positive and even provides additional threats in matchups where increasing threat density helps.

I almost always write up a sideboard guide before tournaments, and the 2/8 1K coming up is no exception. I have one spot in the maindeck and a few slots in the sideboard that I've been agonizing over, but otherwise is I'm locked in. If it isn't too annoying to the forum, I'll post it later.

Mr. Safety
01-23-2020, 07:47 AM
Testing my list out tonight at the LGS, hope it goes well. Here is my list:


4x Death’s Shadow
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Street Wraith
2x Gurmag Angler
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Force of Will
1x Force of Negation
4x Daze
2x Dismember
2x Fatal Push
4x Thoughtseize
2x Reanimate
1x Hymn to Tourach
4x Polluted Delta
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Marsh Flats
4x Watery Grave
1x Island
1x Swamp
4x Wasteland

Sideboard
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Bitterblossom
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Ratchet Bomb
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Toxic Deluge
2x Brazen Borrower
1x Dispel
1x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Darkblast


Deluge/Darkblast will become Plague Engineers if I can pick them up.

Sideboard guide:
Moon Stompy: +2 Borrower, +2 RBomb, +1 BEB, +1 Deluge, -4 Thoughtseize, -1 Reanimate, -1 Daze
Bant Miracles: +2 Blossom, +1 Liliana, +1 Dispel, OTD -4 Daze, OTP -1 Push, -1 FoN, -2 Daze
Grixis Delver: +2 Blossom, +1 BEB, +1 Deluge, +1 Dispel, -1 FoN, -1 Thoughtseize, -1 Reanimate, -2 Daze
TES: +1 BEB, +2 Surgical, +1 Spellbomb, +1 Dispel, -2 Push, -2 Dismember, -1 Reanimate
ANT: +2 Surgical, +1 Spellbomb, +1 Dispel, -2 Push, -2 Dismember
Burn: +1 BEB, +2 RBomb, +1 Dispel, -4 Thoughtseize
Depths: +2 Borrower, +2 Blossom, +1 Edict, +2 Surgical, -1 Hymn, -2 Push, -4 Daze
Sneak/Show: +2 Surgical, +2 Borrower, +1 Edict, +1 Dispel, +1 BEB, -2 Dismember, -2 Push, -3 Daze
Reanimator: +2 Surgical, +1 Spellbomb, +1 Edict, +2 Borrower, -1 Hymn, -2 Dismember, -2 Push, -1 SW
Dredge: +2 Surgical, +1 Spellbomb, +1 RBomb, +1 Deluge, -1 Hymn, -4 Thoughtseize,
Stoneblade: +1 Deluge, +1 Edict, +2 Borrower, +2 Bitterblossom, -4 Daze, -1 FoN, -1 Force of Will
UR Delver: same as Grixis Delver
D&T: +1 Deluge, +1 Liliana, +1 Darkblast, +2 RBomb, -1 FoN, -4 Daze
Eldrazi: +2 RBomb, +2 Borrower, -4 Thoughtseize
Goblins: +1 Deluge, +1 Liliana, +1 Darkblast, -1 FoN, -2 Daze
Elves: same as Goblins
Lands: +1 Edict, +2 Borrower, +1 BEB, +2 Blossom, -2 Push, -3 Thoughtzeize, -1 Hymn
Aggro Loam: +2 RBomb, +2 Bitterblossom, +1 BEB, -4 Thoughtseize, -1 Reanimate
BUG Delver: same as Grixis/UR except bring in Edict instead of BEB
Infect: +1 Deluge, +1 Liliana, +1 Dispel, +1 Darkblast, -1 FoN, -1 Hymn, -1 Reanimate, -1 Wraith

Sorry for spamming so much in a post! I would love feedback.

Tobitzki
01-23-2020, 05:31 PM
I would love feedback.

pretty classic-looking list. couple of thoughts & nitpicks: not sure if I would run a Hymn (even just one) along basic Island; consider Spell Pierce or Stubby D? And do you reckon that 2 Bitterblossoms is enough of a plan against all the Snoko/Control soups? That Dispel could be a Flusterstorm and I'd try to find a slot for a Mystical Dispute somewhere. Finally: I don't know your particular meta, but elsewhere there don't seem to be a lot of black creatures running around right now (Strixes are now Snakes and Delver's Gurmags are Bedlams), so why not run 2 Snuff Outs?

I think if I chose to run DS atm, I'd go with a light green splash for 2 Decays, 1 Library, +2 Veils out of the board and would borrow that Painful Truths / Mystic Sanctuary tech from recent Grixis Delver decks against control.

Good luck tonight!

Tobitzki
01-23-2020, 05:36 PM
sorry, didn't see your comment about the local meta. If Miracles & blue decks in general are not that big an issue, you're probably good to go.

Maximus
01-23-2020, 06:25 PM
Agree on the basic island. I think after playing this deck for a while, you start to see how bad the basics really are in this deck. It was advertised as a potential budget deck when it came out in 2018 for not needing Seas but honestly I think that's super misleading. The selling point to this deck is that you can be really aggressive, way more than other Delver variants. But there's a lot of trade-offs to this: starting at effectively 10 life in races, not being able to sit back and trade cards 1 for 1 at mana advantage like Canadian Thresh can, often being forced to play disruption in your first main phase rather than getting to choose when you play it, not being able to drop an Angler or Shadow at nearly any time like you can with Goyf. These are all serious downsides so you really need to be able to play to that extra pressure. But if you're playing a basic Island it totally screws your pressure and sequencing. Sea gives you access to things like turn 2 Thoughtseize > Shadow / Angler while still being able to cantrip. I could see a reasonable argument for maybe the single Swamp but even then... ehh. You start to really notice how much the inability to jam your spells screws your tempo advantage, and Ponder / Brainstorm / Daze are still a big part of that. And this affects every single MU. I think the disadvantages to playing basics was severely downplayed when this deck came out. I personally would rather take the 5 U/B fetch targets (3 Grave, 2 Sea) and just try to deal with mana hate via tighter play.

Mr. Safety
01-23-2020, 11:31 PM
Ended up just jamming games against friends, not enough to fire an 8 man event. I played against 2 d&t players and against a maverick stew splashing blue for oko and 3feri. Not a good sample really.

Here's what I did: nabbed 2 plague engineers for the board, maindecked a borrower over the hymn, and I cut to 3 wastelands and put in a 9th fetch.

The basics were good all night in test games. Without hymn I didn't need bb for anything other than liliana.

Deck is super fun, but absurdly weak to a StP. I got 2-for-1-ed several times that way.

Still learning a ton on how to play a blue tempo deck. It's rewarding to be improving as a player, but man I have a long ways to go before I master this deck.

Mr. Safety
01-30-2020, 02:48 PM
Debating a Mindbreak Trap and a Ravenous Trap in my sideboard for the new hotness of Underworld Breach. I think it would be favorable already given Shadow is a Thoughtseize/Force/Daze deck but I don't think having 1-2 sideboard slots that play well against Storm/Breach would be a bad idea.

I think I'll see some dredge on 2/8 as well, so I think Ravenous Trap could be a good metagame call.

Fox
01-30-2020, 03:36 PM
Planar Void is a fairly nasty card if you’re trying to stick it to Underworld Breach (though you’d be wanting Gurmags to come out). Probably not worth considering however, unless you’re also running Surgical and expect storm decks as well. These triggers create priority windows which interrupt PiF into Tutor and Tutor into the card it found. These triggers also stop LED into Echo. Bonus points b/c this card played pretty nicely with DRS back when he was legal.

Mr. Safety
01-31-2020, 07:48 AM
It's a cool idea, but I don't want to sacrifice my early development. I think Mindbreak Trap/Ravenous Trap could be just as effective as blowouts to support the Surgicals/Spellbomb I'm using as gravehate. Having 4/5 of those specific hate options being essentially 'free' means I can still Delver, Ponder, Brainstorm, Wasteland, Thoughtseize, or Daze early and not lose to opposing answers. Having all of my gravehate being one-sided means I don't have to compromise on Gurmags, which are pretty important.

I think at the very least I will put in the Ravenous Trap. I have 3 grave hates currently, having a 4th seems smart. Mindbreak Trap would take the place of either Dispel or Blue Elemental Blast. BEB has relevance beyond Breach by countering/killing Burning Wish, Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon, Chandra ToD, Sneak Attack, Pyroblast, KCommand, Young Peezy, Lightning Bolt, Abrade, and Burn.dec. Dispel has relevance as a counter to key protection/sideboard answers like Silence, Orim's Chant, and Veil of Summer while also countering some amount of spells out of almost every deck.

Fox
02-02-2020, 12:03 PM
The thing about Rav Trap is you still die to Silence effects. You should either be wanting to have on-board yard hate (Crypt/Void/Leyline/Spellbomb/Cage) or game actions (Macabre or the spiciest Emmy SB shuffle trick ever).

Edit: Damping Sphere would also be a reasonable card, with further application against Storm, Elves, and Post. This puts a pretty swift stop to opening up with cards like Silence and Veil.

Mr. Safety
02-03-2020, 07:26 AM
Yeah, I think it needs to be permanent-based hate. Fighting on the stack is ok to fight their disruption (Silence, Orim's Chant, Spell Pierce) but fighting on the stack against their graveyard is a losing proposition unless it's Surgical Extraction on LED. I'm leaving the trap cards (see what I did there?) home. If I feel the need for another grave hate in the board then it will be another Spellbomb or Tormod's Crypt.

I am also debating Spell Snare maindeck over the Spell Pierce I added. It's a hard counter that's good against a lot of problematic cards: Underworld Breach, Chalice@1 (on the play), Stoneforge Mystic, Sylvan Library, and Snapcaster Mage. It also hits a lot of other metagame bullshit that is guaranteed to show up that doesn't need Spell Snare specifically to answer but it's very efficient to do so: Tarmogoyf, Hymn to Tourach, Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish, Young Pyromancer.

Spell Pierce was to have extra options to fight on the stack against PW's. I think it's ok to lean a little heavier on Thoughtsieze and Forces for PW's.

So sideboard looks like this:

2x Plague Engineer
1x Brazen Borrower
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Darkblast
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x Ratchet Bomb
1x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Bitterblossom
1x Open


Open slot could be: Mystical Dispute, Dispel, Spell Pierce, Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker, Damping Sphere, Hymn to Tourach, 2nd Nihil Spellbomb, Tormod's Crypt, or anything else someone suggests

EDIT: I have a higher than average amount of Lands players in the New England metagame, debating 1-2 Winter Orbs.

kombatkiwi
02-08-2020, 09:24 AM
After HJKaiser introduced the SB plan of Painful Truths + Mystic Sanctuary in Grixis Delver I wanted to try the same thing here with Infernal Contract, which is like the turbocharged Painful Truths for UB decks

4 Shadow
4 Gargoyle
4 Wraith

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

2 Stubborn Denial
2 Dismember
1 Fatal Push
1 Preordain

4 Wasteland
8 Blue Fetchlands
2 Sea
4 Grave

SB

2 Infernal Contract
2 Liliana the Last Hope
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Plague Engineer
2 Force of Negation
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Mystic Sanctuary
1 Liliana's Triumph
1 (Null Rod / Triumph #2 / Something)

I played 4 post-sb games against 4c Miracles today and the package of contract + Lili + Sanctuary seems very potent.
I was worried that without Reveler / Dreadhorde / YP etc as threats that accumulate resources it would be too hard to fight through 4C Miracles but contract gives an extra card compared to painful truths and (very importantly) the deck has this additional resilient threat in the form of Liliana.
A lot of Miracles players have cut AK for Coatl now which seriously limits their ability to grind, and Lili +1 can easily clean up any Coatl/Snapcaster for free.
Mostly they board out forces for stuff like Veil or Pyroblast so it's very hard for them to stop Contract from resolving at which point you fill your hand with countermagic/discard
At that point all you need to do is keep Oko off the table (Not too hard with Daze/FoW/Stubbo/Negation/Discard etc after you have drawn 4) and then winning seems pretty straightforward

Mr. Safety
02-09-2020, 04:23 PM
Interesting, I'm debating a green splash for some tech and Painful Truths seems good out of the board, I don't have any copies of Infernal Contract.

I played in a 5 round 1k yesterday, went 2-3. Wins were against blue Maverick and Punishing Maverick. Losses were to 4c Pile, Bant Miracles, and Burn. I think I need a 2nd Lily Last Hope, that card is bananas.

EDIT: This is what I'm going to play for a little while, test the waters. I think Hymn to Tourach should have been in the 75, and for now it's in the maindeck. I cut down to 1 Reanimate (it was 'meh') and because the emphasis on reanimating Street Wraith is lower I'm cutting to 3 Wraiths. I think this is fine considering I'm on 4 Watery Grave and 0 Underground Sea.

4x Death’s Shadow
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Street Wraith
2x Gurmag Angler
1x Brazen Borrower
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Force of Will
2x Hymn to Tourach
1x Spell Snare
4x Daze
2x Dismember
2x Fatal Push
4x Thoughtseize
1x Reanimate
4x Polluted Delta
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Marsh Flats
4x Watery Grave
1x Island
1x Swamp
4x Wasteland

Sideboard
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Bitterblossom
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Ratchet Bomb
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x Plague Engineer
1x Brazen Borrower
1x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Narset, Parter of Veils
1x Force of Negation


I don't like playing Infernal Contract with basic lands, I don't think the BBB will ever be reasonably hit. I'm going to try Narset in those slots as a way to gain card advantage against the Pile/Miracles lists. Once I get a 2nd Liliana Last Hope I think that will replace the Narset. I'm also curious about the 4 Gargoyle plan over Delver...it's slower to get started, but a little easier to turn on as an aggressive threat. It makes Stubborn Denial a better counterspell, for sure.

Mr. Safety
02-10-2020, 04:00 PM
Is there potential for Standstill to come in out of the board for the control matchups? I would think Thoughtseize/Fatal Push/Daze/Force of Will should keep t1 open to land a t2 Standstill and really put pressure on Pile/Miracles. Having played Dreadstill in the past, I know that getting at least 20 lands into the deck is probably necessary, so maybe Mystic Sanctuary + {other utility land} could come in as well to make 20 lands to go with 3x Standstill.

Thoughts?

kombatkiwi
02-10-2020, 10:01 PM
Is there potential for Standstill to come in out of the board for the control matchups? I would think Thoughtseize/Fatal Push/Daze/Force of Will should keep t1 open to land a t2 Standstill and really put pressure on Pile/Miracles. Having played Dreadstill in the past, I know that getting at least 20 lands into the deck is probably necessary, so maybe Mystic Sanctuary + {other utility land} could come in as well to make 20 lands to go with 3x Standstill.

Thoughts?

You have no options to draw into pressure that goes past the standstill (ie Factory) so if you play standstill on an empty board your opponent just ignores it and plays draw-go until they have like 10 lands on the battlefield and then breaks the standstill in your endstep when you have 7 cards in hand already. Now your opponent has enough resources to hardcast Terminus and play around your Dazes and such. Doesn't seem like a good idea to me

Mr. Safety
02-11-2020, 07:02 AM
You have no options to draw into pressure that goes past the standstill (ie Factory) so if you play standstill on an empty board your opponent just ignores it and plays draw-go until they have like 10 lands on the battlefield and then breaks the standstill in your endstep when you have 7 cards in hand already. Now your opponent has enough resources to hardcast Terminus and play around your Dazes and such. Doesn't seem like a good idea to me

Good call. I think without landing a threat first (Delver/reanimated Street Wraith) it would be terrible without Factories. Mana advantage gets sticky too, when they draw more lands (as you say.) I'll leave it out. I was just trying to come up with a more efficient way to gain card advantage than Infernal Contract. Search for Azcanta comes to mind as well. I want to figure out something that doesn't cost 3 mana that isn't a PW; once the 3 mana threshold gets hit Liliana the last Hope and Narset are both superior choices, in my opinion, than a draw 3 for 3.

EDIT: sorry, I didn't realize Contract drew 4 cards. I love the synergy, hate the mana cost.

kombatkiwi
02-11-2020, 08:33 AM
Good call. I think without landing a threat first (Delver/reanimated Street Wraith) it would be terrible without Factories. Mana advantage gets sticky too, when they draw more lands (as you say.) I'll leave it out. I was just trying to come up with a more efficient way to gain card advantage than Infernal Contract. Search for Azcanta comes to mind as well. I want to figure out something that doesn't cost 3 mana that isn't a PW; once the 3 mana threshold gets hit Liliana the last Hope and Narset are both superior choices, in my opinion, than a draw 3 for 3.

EDIT: sorry, I didn't realize Contract drew 4 cards. I love the synergy, hate the mana cost.

Last Hope is a good complement to Contract (I'm playing 2 of each) because you need some way to clean up miracles value creatures so they can't chip you out, and it's also a threat that eventually wins the game.
Narset is alright but compared to contract 4 cards is significantly more than 2 and it doesn't have the Mystic Sanctuary synergy. (The fact it's Pyroblastable is also a significant drawback in the metagame currently)
Search for Azcanta "costs 2" in the top right corner but you still have to tap 3 other lands every time you want to use it

Mr. Safety
02-12-2020, 08:11 AM
Is Jace, The Mind Sculptor too greedy out of the sideboard? In matchups where games will go longer he seems like a strong way to supplement Bitterblossom/Liliana as must-answer threats. I'm only playing 18 lands, but I know that I'll hit land drops in the Pile/Miracles matchups due to games going longer.

EDIT: I forgot to add that I would also put a Mystic Sanctuary into the sideboard, both coming in together (Jace + Sanctuary) to give me 19 lands.

I'm also agonizing over Spell Pierce vs Spell Snare vs Force of Negation vs Stubborn Denial maindeck. I only have room for 1 now that I have 2x Hymn in the maindeck (committed to that for now) so I know it's a small thing to stress over. I feel like Stubborn Denial is just too conditional to ever do anything more than Daze already does (playing only 6 creatures to turn it on as a hard counter.) Snare seems great in problematic matchups (Death and Taxes) while Pierce hits PW's more reliably. Force of Negation seems fine, but it doesn't protect my threats during my turn.

kombatkiwi
02-16-2020, 01:01 AM
New result (local paper event)
4 Shadow
4 Gargoyle
4 Wraith
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Hymn
4 Thoughtseize
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Dismember
1 Preordain
1 Fatal Push
4 Waste
4 Grave
2 Sea
8 Blue Fetchlands

SB:
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Liliana's Triumph
2 Plague Engineer
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Force of Negation
2 Infernal Contract
1 Mystic Sanctuary
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction

R1: Eldrazi Stompy 1-2
R2: Infect 2-1
R3: Aggro Loam 2-0
R4: RUG Delver 1-2
R5: Moon Stompy 2-1
T8: Stryfo Pile 2-0
T4: RUG Delver 2-1
Final: Eldrazi Dynamo 1-2

List seems good
You could maybe move 1 FON to the main over a stub or the preordain to open another SB slot

Mr. Safety
02-16-2020, 04:35 PM
New result (local paper event)
4 Shadow
4 Gargoyle
4 Wraith
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Hymn
4 Thoughtseize
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Dismember
1 Preordain
1 Fatal Push
4 Waste
4 Grave
2 Sea
8 Blue Fetchlands

SB:
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Liliana's Triumph
2 Plague Engineer
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Force of Negation
2 Infernal Contract
1 Mystic Sanctuary
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction

R1: Eldrazi Stompy 1-2
R2: Infect 2-1
R3: Aggro Loam 2-0
R4: RUG Delver 1-2
R5: Moon Stompy 2-1
T8: Stryfo Pile 2-0
T4: RUG Delver 2-1
Final: Eldrazi Dynamo 1-2

List seems good
You could maybe move 1 FON to the main over a stub or the preordain to open another SB slot

How important is hymn to the Gargoyle plan? I like the idea of playing gargoyle over delver. I may just take your list to a weekly and see what it does.

kombatkiwi
02-16-2020, 10:43 PM
How important is hymn to the Gargoyle plan? I like the idea of playing gargoyle over delver. I may just take your list to a weekly and see what it does.

Pretty key I think, but the deck should play 4 Hymn regardless in my opinion, and then you can consider whether you want to play 2 Gargoyle + 2 Angler or 2 Jace + 2 Gargoyle or 2 Jace + 2 Angler or whatever
(i.e. it's not like "wow gargoyle is so good I want to play 4, then how can I enable it, I must play 4 hymn": it's the other way around, gargoyle is viable because the deck happens to have 4 hymn in it)

Mr. Safety
02-17-2020, 07:15 AM
Cool, thanks for the response. I think a split between Gargoyle/Angler might be bad, considering it lowers the blue count for forces. As it stands I only have 22 blue cards total, which is probably ok. I really like the idea of keeping in Reanimate, so I'm going to try and cram that in there as well. It makes it so I have 10 threats instead of just 8.

4x Death's Shadow
4x Street Wraith
4x Vantress Gargoyle
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
2x Stubborn Denial
2x Fatal Push
1x Dismember
1x Reanimate
4x Polluted Delta
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Marsh Flats
4x Watery Grave
1x Island
1x Swamp
4x Wasteland

Sideboard
2x Plague Engineer
2x Brazen Borrower
2x Bitterblossom
2x Ratchet Bomb
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Mystic Sanctuary
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Force of Negation
1x Liliana, the Last Hope


This is what I'm going to sleave up for Thursday night. I'm also curious about a more mid-range approach with 19 lands maindeck and playing a 2/2 split of Engineer/Borrower maindeck over Delver/Borrower/Gurmag slots. Reanimate gets a lot more value this way, maybe even maindecking Last Hope, and just dropping the Stubborn Denials. I think without at least 6+ creatures to support Stub it isn't worth including.

Also, this list just won a Hareruya event in Japan. No Street Wraiths, maindeck Borrowers, basics over USeas. This is basically my mana-base, which is cool to see. Only 27 players, but still a good showing. A full 4 Mystical Dispute in the sideboard.

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=24657&f=LE

Mr. Safety
02-21-2020, 08:29 AM
I'm hoping to make it to FNM tonight, taking kombatkiwi's maindeck list with only minor changes: -1 Preordain/+1 Reanimate and my budget manabase. There are several local players that jam Reanimator and Dredge, so the Reanimate will be quite good as disruption and a 9th threat. I know he isn't a huge fan of Brazen Borrower, but I love the card so I'm playing that in the sideboard instead of Edict/Triumph. It solves some of the same issues (Marit Lage, Griselbrand) but doesn't solve others (Emrakul, TNN). Luckily, I don't see many of those threats other than Marit Lage. I could see cutting a Surgical or the spellbomb for an Edict/Triumph but I'll jam this for now and see how it goes. Thoughtseize/Hymn are both very good in the Sneak/Show matchup alongside Stub/Daze/Force and Negation out of the board. One other card I'm really interested in playing a 1-of is Umezawa's Jitte. It should really help against D&T, Delver decks, and help manage life total against something like Burn.

2x Brazen Borrower
2x Plague Engineer
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Bitterblossom
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Mystic Sanctuary
1x Force of Negation

Mr. Safety
02-21-2020, 10:20 PM
Holy shit is Vantress Gargoyle a bad card. That list was hot fucking garbage. I only attacked once with it, and I never had enough threats. Delver, Gurmag, and Borrower back in.

I don't know what field that 8 threat 4 hymn list is good in, but I am beyond skeptical. Fucking garbage.

Fox
02-21-2020, 11:18 PM
The Vantress giveth and the Vantress taketh. How many Uro and Gurmag did you run into?

Mr. Safety
02-22-2020, 09:31 AM
The Vantress giveth and the Vantress taketh. How many Uro and Gurmag did you run into?

Zero. Lost to shadow mirror, eldrazipost, and bomberman. All matchups where traditional threats would have been infinitely better. Gargoyle giveth fucking nothing. Most of the time couldn't attack, most of the time couldn't block. Pitching to force and making room for sideboard cards is the best I can say of it.

Edit: shadow deck was grixis with arcanist/bolts instead of gurmags.

kombatkiwi
02-23-2020, 03:22 AM
Zero. Lost to shadow mirror, eldrazipost, and bomberman. All matchups where traditional threats would have been infinitely better. Gargoyle giveth fucking nothing. Most of the time couldn't attack, most of the time couldn't block. Pitching to force and making room for sideboard cards is the best I can say of it.

Edit: shadow deck was grixis with arcanist/bolts instead of gurmags.

Obviously having Delver in your deck is better vs Bomberman and especially Post, I have never denied this. I also basically never block with Gargoyle either

Against those kinds of Grixis deck if you play more games you might find that you can exploit the fact that you don't have creatures that die to bolt

There are a lot of other questionable things about your list as well
- Mystic Sanctuary in the board without Infernal Contract or any other highly impactful card to return with it
- Trying to make the rest of the list work with the budget manabase, specifically playing 4x Hymn with a basic island and Mystic Sanctuary with a basic swamp. (And then because of the basic swamp you also have the tension of playing Mystic Sanctuary with 1 Marsh Flats)

It's fine to not like playing the list without Delver (and even then 4 gargoyle is not essential either, you could easily play like 2 Gargoyle and 2 Angler if you wanted) and it's definitely not a strict upgrade. (i.e. I don't think it improves literally every matchup, but I prefer it because on balance I think it's overall better against the meta)

I just think that if you want to play Thoughtseize and Delver of Secrets in the same deck then Grixis Delver (no Shadows) is a better choice

Mr. Safety
02-24-2020, 07:14 AM
Obviously having Delver in your deck is better vs Bomberman and especially Post, I have never denied this. I also basically never block with Gargoyle either.

If you are only playing 8 threats, blocking is going to be pretty important. It would have been instrumental in some matchups for trading resources and stabilizing. I will say this several times during this post: Vantress Gargoyle is not a good card.


Against those kinds of Grixis deck if you play more games you might find that you can exploit the fact that you don't have creatures that die to bolt

Maybe, but they have more threats and an ability to play the same disruption game. If I had haymaker plays further up in the curve I could do a passable impression of a Grixis mid-range deck, but the options weren't there. Gargoyle was too conditional to be a valid resource on the board. Vantress Gargoyle is not a good card.


There are a lot of other questionable things about your list as well
- Mystic Sanctuary in the board without Infernal Contract or any other highly impactful card to return with it
- Trying to make the rest of the list work with the budget manabase, specifically playing 4x Hymn with a basic island and Mystic Sanctuary with a basic swamp. (And then because of the basic swamp you also have the tension of playing Mystic Sanctuary with 1 Marsh Flats)

1) Mystic Sanctuary was fine, even re-bought me a Hymn once and allowed me to play lands on curve to play a Jace. Being a 19th land is it's floor, which it accomplished admirably, and it's ceiling with something like Infernal Contract would be incredibly unreliable as a one-of. It's a cute interaction, one that I'm sure will come up more often once the overall number of games played gets higher. That won't happen, the list is poor for all the reasons I'm describing. The one positive thing I learned was that Mystic Sanctuary is a great card in the sideboard, not just for being an extra land against Wasteland and casting 3-drops easier, but simply because re-buying a removal/discard/counter in the mid-late game is the kind of card advantage needed to grind through the control matchups. Jace is still fine as a 1-of where games might go long, it's a card that has the right power level higher in the curve to help when you need it. Of all the things that went wrong, sideboarding Mystic Sanctuary was not one of them, even if it was 'questionable' without infernal contract.
2) My budget mana-base didn't prevent my deck from working, it worked fine, I played my cards. They just weren't good enough together to actually win. I only had 1 situation where basic Island was in my opening hand, and it still didn't prevent me from turn 3 Hymn. In fact, the basic Island was instrumental in casting a Jace, several Brazen Borrowers, and hardcast Force of Will. Don't use the 'budget manabase' minor variance to excuse a list that is fundamentally flawed by having too much disruption and too few threats (half of which are unreliable, basically having to hit the perfect mix to make it useful at all.) More than 1-2 Hymns is questionable, having 4 maindeck is a liability against anything short of combo decks. When people get on the board faster, and in greater numbers, top-decking another hymn is useless. So I would need a Gargoyle to stabilize, threaten blocking to hold the fort, but it can't do that while you try to play out the cards you actually have to actually play the game. Vantress Gargoyle is not a good card.


It's fine to not like playing the list without Delver (and even then 4 gargoyle is not essential either, you could easily play like 2 Gargoyle and 2 Angler if you wanted) and it's definitely not a strict upgrade. (i.e. I don't think it improves literally every matchup, but I prefer it because on balance I think it's overall better against the meta)

It wasn't about 'not liking playing the list without delver', it was the fact that there was too few threats period, then doubled-down when half of them were garbage. I mentioned in an earlier post that splitting the blue threats would be a bad idea because the blue count for Force of Will/Negation is borderline low already. Depending on how you manipulate the maindeck between 20-22 blue cards total, which is pretty tight considering 5-6 Force variants. I would rather work back in Gurmag Angler, an actual good card. Vantress Gargoyle is not a good card.


I just think that if you want to play Thoughtseize and Delver of Secrets in the same deck then Grixis Delver (no Shadows) is a better choice
I think this is pretty amusing. When all else fails, point in another direction. The combination of Thoughtseize and Delver is perfectly fine on it's own, both cards pulling their own weight but also working together (dealing with removal/threats, clearing the path for Delver, flipping delver on the top of the deck.) Compare that to Gargoyle which needs the perfect mix of criteria to do anything, mostly with the consent of your opponent. Delver and Thoughtseize don't care what your opponent has done, they are still good regardless. Gargoyle is depending on your opponent getting threshold to attack, but also making you somehow have 4 cards in hand to be a big enough threat to play defense (and you're playing a lot of defense when you are only playing 8 threats.)

I'm not sure if I've said this already, but Vantress Gargoyle is not a good card. Playing 3-4 Hymns main might be ok alongside Gurmag Angler and Delver, both of which don't require it but benefit from it. Your main argument was that 4 Hymn is correct and Gargoyle just benefits from that. Four Hymn is certainly not correct, except against combo decks that don't play Veil of Summer, which as of right now are practically non-existent. I think you played a quirky list at a local paper event and got lucky. The list doesn't follow the traditional templates of any sort of proven strategy, so it's flawed. The threats don't pull double duty to play well like a mid-range deck (like Baleful Strix, Snapcaster Mage) and there are too few of them to be aggressive enough to race slower decks (minimum 12 in Delver decks, most are playing upwards of 13-14 lately.)

kombatkiwi
02-24-2020, 12:43 PM
If you are only playing 8 threats, blocking is going to be pretty important. It would have been instrumental in some matchups for trading resources and stabilizing. I will say this several times during this post: Vantress Gargoyle is not a good card.
Ok, but you are going to be cutting some other card that also does the role of "trading resources" (e.g. Hymn) and a lot of other tempo creatures aren't very effective at blocking either (Delver, Arcanist, Borrower). Angler and Pyro are fine and like I keep saying you can play a very similar deck with Anglers if you want


Maybe, but they have more threats and an ability to play the same disruption game. If I had haymaker plays further up in the curve I could do a passable impression of a Grixis mid-range deck, but the options weren't there.
This is like, almost getting it, but I think this has been explained in the thread before


1) Mystic Sanctuary was fine, even re-bought me a Hymn once and allowed me to play lands on curve to play a Jace. Being a 19th land is it's floor, which it accomplished admirably,
I'm not trying to suggest that all of my concerns would have become immediately apparent in 3 matches but in the long run it's something I would be concerned about


The one positive thing I learned was that Mystic Sanctuary is a great card in the sideboard, not just for being an extra land against Wasteland and casting 3-drops easier, but simply because re-buying a removal/discard/counter in the mid-late game is the kind of card advantage needed to grind through the control matchups.
Yes, being able to turn an extra land into a reclaim for a counterspell is very useful when you're ahead on board


Jace is still fine as a 1-of where games might go long, it's a card that has the right power level higher in the curve to help when you need it. Of all the things that went wrong, sideboarding Mystic Sanctuary was not one of them, even if it was 'questionable' without infernal contract.
I'm still not sure it offers anything that isn't served better by other cards considering the high manacost and the vulnerability to red blast.


2) My budget mana-base didn't prevent my deck from working, it worked fine, I played my cards. They just weren't good enough together to actually win. I only had 1 situation where basic Island was in my opening hand, and it still didn't prevent me from turn 3 Hymn. In fact, the basic Island was instrumental in casting a Jace, several Brazen Borrowers, and hardcast Force of Will. Don't use the 'budget manabase' minor variance to excuse a list that is fundamentally flawed by having too much disruption and too few threats (half of which are unreliable, basically having to hit the perfect mix to make it useful at all.)
Again I'm just saying this manabase will cause issues in the long run, I'm not trying to say that it was directly responsible for your 0-3


More than 1-2 Hymns is questionable, having 4 maindeck is a liability against anything short of combo decks. When people get on the board faster, and in greater numbers, top-decking another hymn is useless. So I would need a Gargoyle to stabilize, threaten blocking to hold the fort, but it can't do that while you try to play out the cards you actually have to actually play the game. Vantress Gargoyle is not a good card. It wasn't about 'not liking playing the list without delver', it was the fact that there was too few threats period, then doubled-down when half of them were garbage. I mentioned in an earlier post that splitting the blue threats would be a bad idea because the blue count for Force of Will/Negation is borderline low already. Depending on how you manipulate the maindeck between 20-22 blue cards total, which is pretty tight considering 5-6 Force variants. I would rather work back in Gurmag Angler, an actual good card. Vantress Gargoyle is not a good card.
Ok


I think this is pretty amusing. When all else fails, point in another direction. The combination of Thoughtseize and Delver is perfectly fine on it's own, both cards pulling their own weight but also working together (dealing with removal/threats, clearing the path for Delver, flipping delver on the top of the deck.) Compare that to Gargoyle which needs the perfect mix of criteria to do anything, mostly with the consent of your opponent. Delver and Thoughtseize don't care what your opponent has done, they are still good regardless. Gargoyle is depending on your opponent getting threshold to attack, but also making you somehow have 4 cards in hand to be a big enough threat to play defense (and you're playing a lot of defense when you are only playing 8 threats.)
There is a real inherent tension in playing a deck with 4 Delver of Secrets and 0 burn spells and again I'm not going to elaborate on this because it's all been said before


I'm not sure if I've said this already, but Vantress Gargoyle is not a good card. Playing 3-4 Hymns main might be ok alongside Gurmag Angler and Delver, both of which don't require it but benefit from it. Your main argument was that 4 Hymn is correct and Gargoyle just benefits from that. Four Hymn is certainly not correct, except against combo decks that don't play Veil of Summer, which as of right now are practically non-existent.

If you say so


I think you played a quirky list at a local paper event and got lucky.
Ok cool, I think you played at a local paper event and got unlucky? You're not going to win a sample size argument with your 3 matches


The list doesn't follow the traditional templates of any sort of proven strategy, so it's flawed.
There are upsides to this kind of ruthless pragmatism but you obviously don't really subscribe to this philosophy otherwise you wouldn't be posting in the development forum trying to brew a UB Shadow/Dreadnought/Standstill deck


The threats don't pull double duty to play well like a mid-range deck (like Baleful Strix, Snapcaster Mage) and there are too few of them to be aggressive enough to race slower decks (minimum 12 in Delver decks, most are playing upwards of 13-14 lately.)
You don't need many threats to race when 4 of them are a 1 mana 8/8 and the other 4 are a 2 mana 5/4 flyer.
The "minimum 12" idea is silly as well, all I have to do is scroll a few tweets down my feed as I'm typing this post and see this list with 11:
https://twitter.com/birchloreranger/status/1231960037972639744
It wasn't uncommon for people to play RUG with 10

Mr. Safety
02-24-2020, 02:35 PM
Ok cool, I think you played at a local paper event and got unlucky? You're not going to win a sample size argument with your 3 matches. This is a fair statement...but I also had zero interest in pursuing the list further. If it neither wins nor is fun, what is the point of continuing?


There are upsides to this kind of ruthless pragmatism but you obviously don't really subscribe to this philosophy otherwise you wouldn't be posting in the development forum trying to brew a UB Shadow/Dreadnought/Standstill deck.

If you look closely, I'm still following a Dreadstill template. I am playing 4 Dreadnoughts, 4 other 1-drop creatures (Shadow instead of Delver), 3 copies of Factory (some play the full 4, I realize this) and then I am playing Borrower x2 and Scroll x2 instead of Scroll x4. I am playing free counterspells, Brainstorm, 5 removals (varying here slightly over the 4 because I don't have Street Wraiths to drive my life total down) and Thoughtsieze instead of Daze. I have 3 Standstill main, which isn't uncommon, to trade directly with 3x Confidant sideboard. I'm almost perfectly using a ruthless approach to templating, only veering away where I want to test alternate cards, not alternate effects.

Finally, I may be incorrect, but I think Jace is a functionally more powerful card than Infernal Contract. I don't see this as dangerous at all, considering Delver variants have played a copy, even maindeck, in the past.

Call me silly if you want, but if most of the delver variants are playing 12+ threats as a tempo plan I think it's wise to follow suit.

H
02-24-2020, 02:46 PM
Ark4n (https://www.twitch.tv/legacy_council) has been doing well with UB Shadow in the last few days.

He even finished 18th in the last Challenge, but had he won his last game, he'd have top 8'd. You can see the VOD's in the link.

Here is his list:
Creature (14)
4 Death's Shadow
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Street Wraith

Sorcery (9)
4 Ponder
1 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize

Instant (19)
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Drown in the Loch
1 Fatal Push
2 Force of Negation
4 Force of Will
2 Snuff Out
1 Stubborn Denial

Land (18)
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Watery Grave

60 Cards
Sideboard (15)
2 Brazen Borrower
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Hydroblast
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Null Rod
2 Plague Engineer
1 Ratchet Bomb
3 Surgical Extraction

IIRC, he was something like 14-1 in the Leagues before the Challenge. Or at least he was at one point on Friday, I think.

Mr. Safety
02-24-2020, 02:52 PM
Cool, thanks.

kombatkiwi
02-28-2020, 11:16 AM
Small event with a similar list as previous
Inspired by Gavin Enderlin (Basic_Swamp on MTGO) I cut 1 Dismember for 1 Snuff Out but that was the only change from the previous version

2-0 UBRG Control
1-2 Chalice Post
2-1 UG Eldrazi Stompy (No chalice but with Stirrings, Hierarch, Stub)

I think Snuff Out has a lot of upsides for 0 mana but idk if I would want to play 2 because being able to overpay mana for dismember can be good and 2x copies of an uncontrollable -4 life could be a bit risky

To compensate for Gargoyle being relatively weak defensively I could see it being correct to cut the preordain and/or 1 stub for a 2nd push or a Drown in the Loch

H
02-28-2020, 11:31 AM
Ark4n (https://www.twitch.tv/legacy_council) has been doing well with UB Shadow in the last few days.

He got another 5-0 yesterday (or at least one, while I was tuned in).

I think Gurmag is likely the tertiary threat you generally want, unless there is some really compelling metagame factor to mitigate.

Snuff Out has been pretty good for him too.

kombatkiwi
02-28-2020, 04:06 PM
I think Gurmag is likely the tertiary threat you generally want, unless there is some really compelling metagame factor to mitigate.


Borrower is really popular now which is something to consider

H
02-28-2020, 04:08 PM
Borrower is really popular now which is something to consider

Ah, yeah, I think I'd be more likely to consider that a sideboard card, but I could see it being maindeck material in certain metas. Like, if you are apt to see lots of Chalice, or Depth, for example. Even so, I still think you'd want at least one Angler though.

Mr. Safety
02-29-2020, 09:08 PM
The slot my main deck Borrower takes is the 2nd Reanimate, still 2 anglers. Borrower is generally better in my metagame atm than reanimate.

kombatkiwi
03-01-2020, 11:36 AM
Ah, yeah, I think I'd be more likely to consider that a sideboard card, but I could see it being maindeck material in certain metas. Like, if you are apt to see lots of Chalice, or Depth, for example. Even so, I still think you'd want at least one Angler though.

Well that's 1 way to interpret it (you can play your own Borrower competing for slots with your Angler) but what I meant was if Borrower is popular for your opponent then it makes Angler a lot worse (when your delve creature gets bounced it can be hard to replay it again)

H
03-02-2020, 12:44 PM
Well that's 1 way to interpret it (you can play your own Borrower competing for slots with your Angler) but what I meant was if Borrower is popular for your opponent then it makes Angler a lot worse (when your delve creature gets bounced it can be hard to replay it again)

Ah, ok, even so, I still think it is worth it to play Angler.

Anecdotal evidence of Basic_Swamp taking 4th in the recent Showcase (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-showcase-challenge-2020-03-02):
Creature (16)
2 Brazen Borrower
4 Death's Shadow
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Street Wraith

Sorcery (8)
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize

Instant (18)
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Drown in the Loch
1 Fatal Push
2 Force of Negation
4 Force of Will
2 Snuff Out

Land (18)
2 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
3 Watery Grave
60 Cards

Sideboard (15)
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Null Rod
2 Plague Engineer
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Stubborn Denial
2 Surgical Extraction

Mr. Safety
03-02-2020, 02:35 PM
Anecdotal evidence of basic Island/Swamp plus *zero* Underground Sea. When you give up Reanimate/Street Wraith, apparently you have room for Dark Confidant and a couple more Fatal Push.

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=24657&d=372466&f=LE

2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Watery Grave

2 Brazen Borrower
4 Dark Confidant
4 Death's Shadow
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Dismember
4 Fatal Push
2 Force of Negation
4 Force of Will
2 Ponder
1 Stubborn Denial
3 Thoughtseize

SIDEBOARD
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Mystical Dispute
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
2 Plague Engineer
1 Stubborn Denial
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize

Mr. Safety
03-04-2020, 08:39 AM
Another good UB Shadow showing at the Showcase challenge online, 4th place:

https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=33638&iddeck=299069

Ark4n placed well again at 17th place:

https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=33638&iddeck=299082

And finally TrueHero at 26th in the same challenge:

https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=33638&iddeck=299091

This makes me think that UB Shadow seems like a decent deck against the Breach upsurge. Breach was everywhere in this challenge.

EDIT: All of those lists are similar, maybe even to a card (I didn't get that detailed with my observations.)

1) Reanimate has been taken out for Brazen Borrower
2) Snuff Out has replaced Dismember completely
3) Drown in the Loch showed up in every list x1
4) Hymn to Tourach x4 in the sideboard was consistent across all 3 of those lists.
5) This setup can be attributed, at least in part, to the slightly different online metagame

Mr. Safety
03-05-2020, 12:41 PM
I'll be headed to a weekly tonight, taking the above well-performing lists but with a few minor changes.( -2 Snuff Out/+1 Fatal Push/+1 Dismember), budget manabase, and I am going to try Umezawa's Jitte in the board. Hopefully I can pull off a win or two this week!