Modern Post-MH2

[Phoenix Ignition]

Banned:
Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
Faithless Looting

Unbanned:
Stoneforge Mystic


Hogaak everyone saw coming. Faithless Looting I'm a little sad about, despite not playing it in any of my favorite decks. I really hope they print a "fixed" version at 1 mana, but usually blue is the one to get any consistency generating toys. Stoneforge Mystic I'm happy that others are happy about, but I'm not looking forward to 90% consistency of hitting a 4/4 mostly uncounterable life link vigilance creature in any non-combo deck.

Is this enough to fix the sour feelings from Hogaak Summer?

[FTW]

but I'm not looking forward to 90% consistency of hitting a 4/4 mostly uncounterable life link vigilance creature in any non-combo deck.

Stoneforge Mystic into Batterskull is stopped by the following commonly played cards (among many others):

Lightning Bolt/Path to Exile/Fatal Push on SFM

Spell Snare on SFM

Pithing Needle on SFM

Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapist/Duress on Batterskull

Thoughtseize/Inquisition of Kozilek on SFM

Nature's Claim/Force of Vigor/Shattering Spree on Batterskull

And those are just answers at 0-1 mana. The card is strong but not broken. Batterskull is very inefficient hardcast or paying the full equip cost. All you have to do is stop the SFM activation.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Yeah, I know the cards that can kill a 1/2. I play it in Vintage. I'm surprised that was the take away from my post, as the real format shake-up is mostly going to be no more Hogaak (which was obviously going to happen) and *many* decks getting hit by Faithless Looting Ban. Arclight Phoenix gets hit the hardest, but fringe decks that could have been much better post-Hogaak like Mardu Pyromancer get hit pretty hard by that as well.

Also, I was ready to debut my crappy Crack the Earth + Dreadhorde Arcanist Modern list, but it gets hit pretty hard by the Faithless ban.

[FTW]

That format shakeup is obvious, didn't need commenting.

I was just reacting to this "90% consistency of 4/4 lifelink" fearmongering. Batterskull is quite stoppable. Caw Blade terrorized Standard almost a decade ago, before so many better cards and strategies emerged in Modern. It's like saying "oh no Tarmogoyf is big".

[Phoenix Ignition]

Dang, man, sorry to bring up the obvious "Hogaak and Faithless Looting are banned, how does the format change?" topic.

I'm curious since it's so obvious to you, what are the new best decks? Are Arclight decks truly dead and gone, or can they recover while playing a slightly slower plan? Is dredge going to be fringe playable, or did they need the flashback Faithless? Can non-blue Pyromancer decks fuel their token generation enough to be worth playing without Faithless?

Sorry if these are so obvious to not be worth discussing, but if you can enlighten me I'd appreciate it immensely.

[FTW]

Of course they're worth discussing. I meant it's obvious those bannings shake up the format (and clearly Hogaak had to go). It's not obvious what the new format will be. That's a lot of speculation, and you didn't really leave any speculations or thoughts about it to start conversation (e.g. banning Faithless Looting will hurt Dredge and probably boost the position of blue decks) so there wasn't anything to add to that.

The only real hook you left was this speculation that Batterskull will be this nearly uncounterable threat with 90% consistency. That statement was so extreme, can you not see how that would be worth discussing too? If you didn't want to discuss it, why say it? I still haven't heard you give any reasons supporting why it's remotely true.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I mean, the thread is literally titled Modern Post-Hogaak and I asked if the bans+unbans are enough to turn around the sour feelings from Hogaak Summer, there were plenty of potential avenues for discussion. Really I was hoping for an open ended discussion on the new meta and also to see how people feel about Modern now that the menace is gone. Are people excited/disappointed? Was it enough? Was banning Faithless too much?

All I said about SFM was I'm not looking forward to a possible Batterskull-centric format, but I'm happy that other people like it, since it may bring more people into Modern as a direct result. I have no horse in this race, as I both own SFM already (I don't have to worry about getting them at price-spiked levels) and currently play a deck that runs essentially 6 Ensnaring Bridges (so they actually do nothing against me). My main reason for not liking it is I do think it homogenizes threat bases as the best 2cmc creature in the format. Midrange creatures aren't that scary in Modern pre-SFM, so I don't expect it to run rampant, I'm just against cards that don't really have drawbacks and narrow the field of choices for deck construction. I also think Sligh (used to be Zoo, but with all the new cards, mono red is the new zoo) decks are a good Litmus test for format health. If none exist, the format is either too combo-favored or too control-favored. If too many exist, the format is choked by fast-kill decks. Stoneforge Mystic in Legacy was the ultimate death of Zoo (well, technically Batterskull was, since people didn't play SFM much before BS got printed) because every blue deck now had something that absolutely crushed the zoo threats of the day. I'm not so much worried that Abzan decks get to use SFM, that's actually a very positive side of it, I'm just worried that blue now has easy ways to stall until they lock down the game with card advantage and counters.

Anyway, to try to continue the conversation:

Big losers:
Mardu Pyromancer. That deck was awesome and I think well positioned to at least be solidly tier 2, but losing Faithless makes it a lot more difficult to put something like Smiting Helix and Lingering Souls in your yard. Young Pyromancer isn't nearly as good after losing the 1 mana cantrip.

Hollow One. The deck was overshadowed big time by Hogaak, but it had a few notable runs pre-gaak. Without Faithless I think this deck is going to be one of the hardest to recover, even though technically it hasn't existed for a few months.

Hogaak (duh)

Fun brews like this one (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32933-Naya-Vengevine) and more along these lines. Blue is once again the defacto card draw/quality engine in Modern.


Decks that take damage but still will be threats:
Mono red Prowess (any Arclight mono red just turns into this with few changes)
Izzet Phoenix (Thing in the Ice + Aria of Flame as game plan is still good, or Izzet Charm might just slot in for a slightly slower version)
Dredge (This deck got hit pretty hard, as flashback Faithless made midgame so much better... but now that graveyard hate will drop, this deck will still be a fringe contender)

My pick for top deck in format:
UW control (I thought it would be the best post-Modern-Horizons, but Hogaak caught me/everyone by surprise. With the slow down from Faithless getting banned, I see it as the big winner. It's really a monster in terms of power level with T3feri and Narset. The board clogging walkers typically will give them enough time to hit the mana they need to never let you cast another spell.)

Notable mention to Urza, which now gets SFM to hunt up either batterskull or Sword of the Meek. Seems like a pretty good card to play for them, I will be trying it out in that deck first as another win con.

[Mr. Safety]

I have a few predictions, but take them with a grain of salt.

1) Izzet phoenix survives and plays a full set of Izzet Charm. Its not as efficient, but it discards phoenixes. It was never a truly fast deck anyways, more rooted in inevitability. Deck will be worse, but not dead.

2) Dredge isn't dead, but it will go into hibernation. I don't think it can handle a looting ban without either new tech or going the stitcher's supplier/satyr wayfinder route. This means Stinkweed imp and golgari thug are neccessary again, and maybe life from the loam. Its slower though, and that gives time for slower grave hate to catch it.

3) Tier 1 decks will be: Urza variants, humans, deaths shadow, tron variants, jund, hardened scales, and burn. Uw control will suffer due to the unsettled nature of the format for a little while and then get back into contention. Jund seems really well placed after the shakeup; good stuff stacks always are. Ditto with burn.

4) Stoneforge will become a staple of the format, but I don't know which variant will become the best option. I like the jeskai approach but Abzan could become a contender with lingering souls. I also like Stoneforge in Bant Spirits.

Thats all for now. Thanks for starting the thread, I look forward to some great discussion.

[Lord Seth]

4) Stoneforge will become a staple of the format, but I don't know which variant will become the best option. I like the jeskai approach but Abzan could become a contender with lingering souls. I also like Stoneforge in Bant Spirits.
Stoneforge Mystic doesn't seem like a good fit in Bant Spirits. Bant Spirits is an aggro deck, and Stoneforge is absolutely not an aggro card. Maybe if it were a Spirit it could work, but even that synergy is lost.

[Mr. Safety]

Stoneforge Mystic doesn't seem like a good fit in Bant Spirits. Bant Spirits is an aggro deck, and Stoneforge is absolutely not an aggro card. Maybe if it were a Spirit it could work, but even that synergy is lost.

I'm not convinced. It's an easy 4-5 slots to include, especially in a vial deck. Lots of flyers for equips. Honestly it will have a hard time with opposing SFM/Batterskull. It will either have to play the package itself or figure out a way to deal with it.

The premiere agro decks of the format are now Humans and Burn. Both get significantly better without Hogaak holding them down. Jund and Tron will be prevalent. Some sort of UR-Thing in the Ice variant will come about, maybe a Blue Moon mashup. Storm will be tried again; I'm not sure how good Twiddle Storm is, but it seems to be gaining momentum.

I think the biggest winners of the recent ban announcement are artifact decks: Hardened Scales, Urza/Thopters, and maybe even a traditional Affinity deck crops up again. You could do a lot worse than Stoneforge into Cranial Plating, equip Etched Champion. Traditional affinity is one of the more consistent ways of getting 2 mana on turn 1.

[Mr. Safety]

Shaheen Soorani has a decent article up about mystic, even advocates for sfm package in vial aggro decks.

http://www.starcitygames.com/articles/39005_Where-Does-Modern-Go-After-Mondays-Banned-And-Restricted-Announcement.html

[Mr. Safety]

What are some cards that get better without Looting/Hogaak, along with adding stoneforge mystic? I'm not talking Batterskull, etc, but rather the slower mid-range cards that fell out of favor because the format was just too fast for them. I've been trying to come up with some cards that will become better because there is time within the games to utilize them again.

Remand
Electrolyze
Lightning Helix
Kolaghan's Command
Collective Brutality
Search for Azcanta
Restoration Angel
Grim Flayer
Izzet Staticaster
Grim Lavamancer


Do these cards, or type of cards really, get better now that the format has gotten a little more mid-range oriented?

[Tylert]

Perahps a little bit offtopic, but i'm already bored looking at Modo streamers trying to find the right stoneforge mystic shell, battling vs other streamers trying to find the right stoneforge mystic shell :) And that doesn't make me drool over playing modern more right now than before in hoogak dark summer!

[Phoenix Ignition]

What are some cards that get better without Looting/Hogaak, along with adding stoneforge mystic? I'm not talking Batterskull, etc, but rather the slower mid-range cards that fell out of favor because the format was just too fast for them. I've been trying to come up with some cards that will become better because there is time within the games to utilize them again.

Remand
Electrolyze
Lightning Helix
Kolaghan's Command
Collective Brutality
Search for Azcanta
Restoration Angel
Grim Flayer
Izzet Staticaster
Grim Lavamancer


Do these cards, or type of cards really, get better now that the format has gotten a little more mid-range oriented?
From what I've seen, mono red is still quite popular, so Collective Brutality is in a great place. Electrolyze might just be too slow, but I suppose with everyone trying to fit Stoneforge in their decks (sometimes with stepmom) it's probably okay in the really slow control lists. K Command is going to be great for a while, especially with the popularity of Karn and Urza. I think that card is in the best place it's ever been.

A few other winners:
Liliana of the Veil. Holy crap was she bad in Hogaak meta, but with the emergence of midrange she's much better. Still bad against W6 but used *with* W6 she's insane.
Collector Ouphe. Artifacts are out in force and if you're not playing with them you should be running at least 3 in your 75 (if you're green).
Plague Engineer. Great card in general, but with everyone trying to run Lingering Souls for equipment shells it's even better.
Torpor Orb. Sideboard it's pretty good against Urza and a fair number of creature decks. I wouldn't play it just against Stoneforge but depending on what else they're doing it might be worth it (kinda wrecks humans, too).




Perahps a little bit offtopic, but i'm already bored looking at Modo streamers trying to find the right stoneforge mystic shell, battling vs other streamers trying to find the right stoneforge mystic shell :) And that doesn't make me drool over playing modern more right now than before in hoogak dark summer!
I feel ya here, it's been pretty bad this first week. I expect it to die down after a few top contenders emerge and hype dies down. The format actually looks pretty healthy despite what the streamers are doing.

[morgan_coke]

Really wish they'd hit Mox Opal and Ancient Stirrings along with Looting.

I think Tron (either blue or green) will be super tier 1, unless Urza/whir prison turns out to be broken AF. Either way the format is still going to have one uber deck that's super hard to hate out and a bunch of also rans.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Really wish they'd hit Mox Opal and Ancient Stirrings along with Looting.

I think Tron (either blue or green) will be super tier 1, unless Urza/whir prison turns out to be broken AF. Either way the format is still going to have one uber deck that's super hard to hate out and a bunch of also rans.

Both of those decks are very susceptible to artifact hate. If one of those 2 is the top deck then it will take some sideboard consideration but I don't see the format being that terrible.

[Mr. Safety]

Looks like UW Stoneblade is an early front-runner for SFM deck of choice; I've seen several 5-0 online league finishes with that setup and a lot of UW control lists re-forming their deck around it. Looks like after the weekend Dredge is still kicking, going back to the traditional tools of Thug/Imp + Shriekhorn. Neonate slotted right into the Looting space. No real surprise there with folks dropping their grave hate.

MCQ on 9/2/19: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=22954&f=MO

At the SCG Open there was an interesting top 8 as well, with some innovation in a RB mid-range Arcanist deck. Top 16 had a BW smallpox deck show up as well, incorporating SFM into it's threat package. It seems like UWx Stoneblade was represented in the top 16, but not in the top 8: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=22942&f=MO

[Phoenix Ignition]

Also, important to note that burn did really well but that may have been for two reasons. Texas is known for being very burn-centric, for whatever reason, and it preys on non-optimized decks, which we're likely to see a lot of the first week of the new meta. I expect it will drop off, but even if its relative position doesn't drop, it is a deck that can be sideboarded for.

The rackdos deck in the top 8 is awesome, and I'm really excited to see a smallpox deck that isn't 8-rack style doing well. Based on that tournament, it looks like it'll take a while for the top decks to shake out.

[Mr. Safety]

Also, important to note that burn did really well but that may have been for two reasons. Texas is known for being very burn-centric, for whatever reason, and it preys on non-optimized decks, which we're likely to see a lot of the first week of the new meta. I expect it will drop off, but even if its relative position doesn't drop, it is a deck that can be sideboarded for.

I agree, burn is a natural predator to people bringing untested brews. I think it's relative position won't change too much until something solidifies into a predator against burn. As I'm certain you are aware, Batterskull doesn't make burn unplayable.


The rackdos deck in the top 8 is awesome, and I'm really excited to see a smallpox deck that isn't 8-rack style doing well. Based on that tournament, it looks like it'll take a while for the top decks to shake out.

The Rakdos list highlights a new and powerful card that isn't seeing nearly enough play in modern (likely due to the prevalence of Lightning Bolt and Fatal Push): Dreadhorde Arcanist. I don't think it will take long before it a Grixis list shows up, just for how strong flashing back cantrips can be. With KCommand being so well placed I predict RBx will be decent for a while.

The smallpox deck was a pleasant surprise, for sure. I have seen some tinkering with BW Stoneblade, but Smallpox in a deck with only SFM and Bloodghast for creatures, along with a naturally powerful Pox-oriented card like Lingering Souls, makes for a really cool setup. If Lingering Souls starts showing up again in significant numbers, along with Elves or Druid Combo, I want to keep my Electrolyze's handy. The new Ranger with Unearth could be very good as well. Smallpox depletes your own resources but Unearth is so efficient at regaining tempo. Discarding a SFM/Ranger to Smallpox, then getting either back for just B is backbreaking, good against fair and unfair decks alike.

One card that I'm really surprised isn't showing up more: Unearth. This turns small creature strategies into a tight card advantage engine that is really efficient. If I were putting together a RB midrange deck I would want some number of this card in my 75, probably at least 2. The value of Seasoned Pyromancer and Arcanist seems so good! Fulminator Mage and Skelemental are both disruptive threats that naturally pair with Unearth as well. It will be fun to see where this goes.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm pretty sure we have enough faeries to make a mono-blue faeries deck be decent. I really like the value that is being crammed into the Adventure cards.

https://www.mtgpics.com/pics/big/eld/045.jpg

https://www.mtgpics.com/pics/big/eld/049.jpg

[Phoenix Ignition]

I want to agree, but faeries has been on life support ever since Wrenn & Six got printed. It doesn't help that Bitterblossom is your own death sentence in this format with T3feri stalling, Plague Engineer maindeck, and Stoneforge being without a doubt the best 2 costing creature a fair deck can play. "Hello, black chump blockers, have you met my friend, Sword of Feast and Famine?"

[Mr. Safety]

I meant mono-blue tribal faeries, not traditional UB faeries. Something with Scion of Oona and a strong tempo plan.

Rough idea:

4x Faerie Seer
4x Faerie Miscreant
4x Ninja of the Deep Hours
4x Spellstutter Sprite
4x Hypnotic Sprite
4x Faerie Vandal
4x Scion of Oona
2x Mistbind Clique
3x Mana Leak
2x Vapor Snag
3x Dismember
2x Spell Snare
18x Island
4x Mutavault

Faerie Vandal plays really well with turbo-Xerox in legacy, but is likely underpowered.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Even so, Wrenn and Plague Engineer make me think the deck just isn't what you want to be doing right now. With Whirza on the uptick, Plague Engineer is going to be seeing a ton of play, and pretty much every midrange deck is running Wrenn right now. Other tribal decks have better base toughness and a better selection of lords.

[Mr. Safety]

That's fair. I think there could be a work-around by finding the right windows to counter them, but discard into Engineer/W6 is still pretty strong.

[Mr. Safety]

Here is the dtb section on mtgtop8 for September:

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=23216&f=MO

Burn and Tron doing well as most predicted, and Whirza is picking up a ton of momentum.

[Phoenix Ignition]

For all the banning (or lack thereof) complaints for the latest B&R, the format looks relatively healthy. I've enjoyed the games I've played and felt like there are sufficient answers to the top decks lately. I haven't played much against the Paradoxical Outcome version of Urza, but it would be way too early to ban something out of it yet.

I wonder if irreparable damage has been done to the format through the past bannings every time a deck appears to be good, making a large subset of the current playerbase expect the next top deck to constantly get banned. It's the internet so people will always complain about anything, but the most recent reddit threads and the like have all sounded so strangely justified in their expectation of Mox Opal/Urza getting banned, despite it not being the top contender.

[Mr. Safety]

I agree, the mishandling of the format has really given it 'baggage'. I also agree that modern is in a great spot; I'm playing Stoneblade and it's powerful but not oppressive. Hell, it isn't even really making much of a wave. The top decks are Burn, Whirza, Tron, and Jund.

Emry seems to be a ticking time bomb, in my opinion. Its got the hallmarks of an overpowered card: cost reduction and abilities that can enable broken interactions.

[Mr. Safety]

Here is the DTB section for October:

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=23489&f=MO

Burn is king ATM alongside the Urza-Oko abomination. Tron, Jund, and Shadow make up a grindy tier 2 while blue control decks are keeping Amulet Titan company in the tier 2.5-3 range. It's really cool to see mid-range strategies come back to the format with Jund and UWx Stoneblade.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Yeah I kind of stopped playing Modern because I like Pioneer better. I might join again if/when Oko is banned, despite playing exclusively Oko decks recently. He's just dumb.

[Mr. Safety]

Yeah I kind of stopped playing Modern because I like Pioneer better. I might join again if/when Oko is banned, despite playing exclusively Oko decks recently. He's just dumb.

Uggh, Pioneer doesn't appeal to me, whatsoever, at all. Oko is causing problems in multiple formats, I'll see if it's too much to handle with Jeskai Stoneblade tomorrow at the 1K.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Uggh, Pioneer doesn't appeal to me, whatsoever, at all. Oko is causing problems in multiple formats, I'll see if it's too much to handle with Jeskai Stoneblade tomorrow at the 1K.

That's too bad, I'm really enjoying my mono colored decks (viable for the first time ever) alongside 5c Niv Mizzet control. I turned on Modern SCG a couple times this weekend and it looks like 80% Oko Urza. Oh well, Modern had a good run but the power creep recently has kinda ruined it for me.

[Megadeus]

That's too bad, I'm really enjoying my mono colored decks (viable for the first time ever) alongside 5c Niv Mizzet control. I turned on Modern SCG a couple times this weekend and it looks like 80% Oko Urza. Oh well, Modern had a good run but the power creep recently has kinda ruined it for me.

Modern horizons unfortunately seems to have killed the format ironically. Too much power creep all at once.

[Mr. Safety]

Yeah, i bombed at the 1k, lost to oko twice and jund twice. It was five rounds, i dropped after r4.

Pioneer is gathering steam at the lgs, so i might just sell out of modern and dedicate those resources to legacy and maybe a pioneer deck. I can easily say that oko is by far the most annoying card to play against, if not necessarily the most powerful.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Modern horizons unfortunately seems to have killed the format ironically. Too much power creep all at once.

I'm not burning all my bridges yet. I think it's pretty obvious Oko is a problem, maybe even Urza. How they handle it is going to be interesting, and I think we'll see something banned on Monday. If not though I'll probably sell my Urza deck + Opals because it just isn't as fun as I thought it'd be. Oko is fine in Pioneer so far, so he might still live on in other formats.

[Mr. Safety]

With W6 being banned in Legacy, does anyone feel it will be looked at for Modern as well? I think it's less miserable than Oko to play against, but it's a powerhouse for sure. It's actually more 'fair' in Modern but I don't see W6 lasting forever. It's too close to Deathrite Shaman in power level.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I like W6 in Modern because it brought back Jund and other midrange strats that don't have to rely on blue splashes. I also didn't think that it was miserable to play against, which is really the main consideration I make when choosing formats to play. It warped the format away from 1 toughness creatures but I think it did a lot to stabilize the format in terms of archetype balance. Humans is good but W6 brought it down from being oppressive. Mainly I think Wasteland is 100% the reason it broke Legacy and that without it the card is just fine as is.

Oko on the other hand is miserable. So is Paradoxical/Emry. So is Taking Turns or even Cryptic Command with Mystic Sanctuary; what an abomination of a card. I think a lot of Eldraine cards are amazingly designed, Adventure cards are a really cool design space, but at this point Modern would need like 10 bans to bring it back to a format where I enjoyed playing with/against decks.

[Mr. Safety]

I like W6 in Modern because it brought back Jund and other midrange strats that don't have to rely on blue splashes. I also didn't think that it was miserable to play against, which is really the main consideration I make when choosing formats to play. It warped the format away from 1 toughness creatures but I think it did a lot to stabilize the format in terms of archetype balance. Humans is good but W6 brought it down from being oppressive. Mainly I think Wasteland is 100% the reason it broke Legacy and that without it the card is just fine as is.

Oko on the other hand is miserable. So is Paradoxical/Emry. So is Taking Turns or even Cryptic Command with Mystic Sanctuary; what an abomination of a card. I think a lot of Eldraine cards are amazingly designed, Adventure cards are a really cool design space, but at this point Modern would need like 10 bans to bring it back to a format where I enjoyed playing with/against decks.

I agree on W6, it's fine. Glad Jund is actually a thing again.

Oko is abysmal. I think it is likely the best 3-mana planeswalker we've seen yet, even better than Teferi. It should have cost 2UG or it should have only had 3 loyalty to start with a +1 on the two plus abilitys. Six loyalty is just too much for a 3-mana planeswalker that has the ability to do 3 things without additional support: kill any non-hexproof/shroud creature an opponent controls (make it an Elk), turn any spare creature/artifact you control into a threat and protect Oko, or stabilize your life-total with food tokens.

The floor is so high: pay 1GU, gain 3 life and almost assuredly untap with Oko in play. That's the worst thing you can do with it.

My interest in the format is waning swiftly, I'm not gonna lie. I wanted Stoneforge to be a tier1 strategy and it's barely tier2. I might have to bite the bullet and just play a more controlling version of UWx mid-range/control and play Supreme Verdicts. *sigh* It's not what I want to be doing, but if it means I can play Stoneforge I'll adjust.

[Phoenix Ignition]

My interest in the format is waning swiftly, I'm not gonna lie. I wanted Stoneforge to be a tier1 strategy and it's barely tier2. I might have to bite the bullet and just play a more controlling version of UWx mid-range/control and play Supreme Verdicts. *sigh* It's not what I want to be doing, but if it means I can play Stoneforge I'll adjust.
Even then you're just vialing in a 3/3 elk. I'm done with Modern until Oko is gone, unless something happens to drastically change the format. Teferi is similarly miserable to play against. I mean, I play with both Oko and Teferi in my current Modern deck, but I hate feeling the need to apologize for playing the best strategy. Why are these planeswalkers able to so fundamentally change how magic is even played? I've always been a fan of goodstuff.deck but recently I just can't stomach it.

Ironically, Pioneer seems to be the least effected format to Oko/Tef. Maybe it's because threats and counterspells are slow/bad enough that Murderous Rider really keeps down the effect of planeswalkers? I guess the other main deck, mono green, has a lot of creatures that are either elves (not elks) or big +1/+1 counter creatures that become "big elks." Hopefully it stays that way, I haven't had as much fun playing magic in a long time.

[Mr. Safety]

Even then you're just vialing in a 3/3 elk. I'm done with Modern until Oko is gone, unless something happens to drastically change the format. Teferi is similarly miserable to play against. I mean, I play with both Oko and Teferi in my current Modern deck, but I hate feeling the need to apologize for playing the best strategy. Why are these planeswalkers able to so fundamentally change how magic is even played? I've always been a fan of goodstuff.deck but recently I just can't stomach it.

Ironically, Pioneer seems to be the least effected format to Oko/Tef. Maybe it's because threats and counterspells are slow/bad enough that Murderous Rider really keeps down the effect of planeswalkers? I guess the other main deck, mono green, has a lot of creatures that are either elves (not elks) or big +1/+1 counter creatures that become "big elks." Hopefully it stays that way, I haven't had as much fun playing magic in a long time.

I've heard the same from others about Pioneer, but the format doesn't appeal to me. If they take action on Oko I'll resume playing the format, but until then I think I'll put my Stoneblade deck on the back burner. I have plenty to keep me busy in Legacy, especially with the shakeup of banning W6. I now have a format I can play Dark Confidant again! :smile:

I think we'll see an Oko ban in modern for January. December seems a little too soon, but it might happen. WOTC is all over banning shit in Pioneer, making announcments every week. Once a month for other formats will seem like a long time, even though historically it has taken much longer than that to make a decision.

[Mr. Safety]

DTB's for November:

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=23760&f=MO

Death's Shadow is on top along with Urza/Oko. Tron variants and Burn are solidly tier 2 (but likely closer to tier 1 than tier 2, tier 1.5 maybe?), Humans and Jund at tier 3, and UWx is nowhere in sight as far as tier decks go. Small uptick on Infect seems to be happening, which is interesting to say the least (according to representation.)

I predicted originally that Tron and Burn would suffer from Urza/Oko being so prevalently played but they seem to be holding their own. I think the decks to really keep a close eye on are Amulet Titan and Urza/Oko, they are both very difficult to interact with in a meaningful manner.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Haven't followed the format much since Pioneer started, but turned on the modern teams stream to see what's going on.

https://scontent-den4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/81656566_625026228273106_7141759705273073664_n.png?_nc_cat=110&_nc_ohc=K0Fdh9cG7pEAQl8u_UyA3lX8osTJne7kVL6-k-sK0qpSHaEvqRDxPq3ug&_nc_ht=scontent-den4-1.xx&oh=80afabd96c0b482ce7767271f58d3cc3&oe=5E96B0D3

Is it as bad right now as this makes it look? Oko ban incoming? Urza ban incoming? Is this just a fluke?

[Tylert]

Haven't followed the format much since Pioneer started, but turned on the modern teams stream to see what's going on.

https://scontent-den4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/81656566_625026228273106_7141759705273073664_n.png?_nc_cat=110&_nc_ohc=K0Fdh9cG7pEAQl8u_UyA3lX8osTJne7kVL6-k-sK0qpSHaEvqRDxPq3ug&_nc_ht=scontent-den4-1.xx&oh=80afabd96c0b482ce7767271f58d3cc3&oe=5E96B0D3

Is it as bad right now as this makes it look? Oko ban incoming? Urza ban incoming? Is this just a fluke?

The ban will probably come someday. It's overpowered and over-represented.

[Mr. Safety]

SCG Open in Knoxville had 4 Urza Oko decks in t8. I'm pretty sure this will continue until some action is taken. Whether the format can adapt is open for debate. More importantly, is there enough of a player base that still cares about Modern to work on adapting?

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=24280&d=369474

[Mr. Safety]

So, I guess I'm right on time, lol.

Oko, Opal, and Mycosynth Lattice banned in Modern today.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Oko and Opal make sense. Lattice just seems so weird to me. Yeah "it isn't fun to be locked out of the game" but it's a 2 card, 10 mana combo (4 and 6, so not even spread out terribly much, or at least still significant investments) where it's susceptible to both artifact and walker hate. If decks getting it too fast is a problem, ban one of the Tron lands, they're they engine to abuse the payoff.

If you want to talk about not having fun playing Modern, why don't we ban Nexus of Fate or one of the pieces of Cryptic Command plus Mystic Sanctuary. Both of those lock you out of the game but in a much more miserable "guess I'll see if they can actually kill me but still not get to play for 15 turns." Like if someone gets Karn + lattice down, it's an insta kill if you don't have a response. You don't have to sit miserably for 20 turns watching someone play with themselves, you can just scoop. Unfun being a banning point is way too subjective. Not a fan of how they're doing things at WotC in regards to Modern.

[Tylert]

Oko and Opal make sense. Lattice just seems so weird to me. Yeah "it isn't fun to be locked out of the game" but it's a 2 card, 10 mana combo (4 and 6, so not even spread out terribly much, or at least still significant investments) where it's susceptible to both artifact and walker hate. If decks getting it too fast is a problem, ban one of the Tron lands, they're they engine to abuse the payoff.

If you want to talk about not having fun playing Modern, why don't we ban Nexus of Fate or one of the pieces of Cryptic Command plus Mystic Sanctuary. Both of those lock you out of the game but in a much more miserable "guess I'll see if they can actually kill me but still not get to play for 15 turns." Like if someone gets Karn + lattice down, it's an insta kill if you don't have a response. You don't have to sit miserably for 20 turns watching someone play with themselves, you can just scoop. Unfun being a banning point is way too subjective. Not a fan of how they're doing things at WotC in regards to Modern.

I suppose Karn + lattice was putting up more results than Cryptic + nexus + mystic sanctuary! :)

[Phoenix Ignition]

I suppose Karn + lattice was putting up more results than Cryptic + nexus + mystic sanctuary! :)

That's generous to assume, but not at all stated. Whereas they specifically talk about win rates for other cards.

[Mr. Safety]

I have seriously lost almost all interest in Modern as a format, honestly. RL cards are dropping in price over the past few months so it's getting even easier to commit resources to Legacy and play what I want. It's only a matter of time until some other card rears it's ugly head and gets banned. The root problem of Modern doesn't seem to ever go away.

[Mr. Safety]

DTB - January 2020

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=24420&f=MO

Looks like without Oko/Opal that Mono-Red Prowess is legitimately the best deck. The GWx "Company" deck is making a resurgence, with the help of Once Upon a Time and some amount of SFM/equips. Humans are making a decent comeback, drifting back into tier 2 alongside stalwart Tron decks. Noticably absent from the list is Grixis Death's Shadow, which seems to be in a slump.

Format still looks boring to me, but we'll see how it shakes out over the next couple months. I at least enjoy looking at the mtgtop8 data, and sharing it with anyone at TheSource that still follows modern.

[Mr. Safety]

DTB - February 2020

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=24772&f=MO

Urza
Amulet Titan
Mono-Red Prowess
Shadow
Jund
Bant Control
Heliod (GW combo creatures)

[Mr. Safety]

What does the Modern metagame even look like right now? It's been a while since I've even thought about Modern.

[Lord Seth]

What does the Modern metagame even look like right now? It's been a while since I've even thought about Modern.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/modern#paper

As a side note: Wow did Steelshaper's Gift shoot up thanks to the Hammer Time deck (Colossus Hammer+Puresteel Paladin combo; Lurrus turned it from a meme deck into Tier 1). It's more expensive than Stoneforge Mystic right now!

[Mr. Safety]

Cool, thanks.

[Mr. Safety]

So a fairly big shakeup of Modern just happened (again!) I'll be looking to customize a Grixis Death's Shadow list, anybody else have plans to dip their toes into Modern again?

[Mr. Safety]

Every couple of years something happens in Modern to get my attention. The last time it was the unbanning of Stoneforge Mystic. This time it's the printing of Counterspell into Modern, along with the potentially back-breaking new card Diamond Lion (hello dredge my old friend.) I think Diamond Lion will be the mistake of this set for sure.

I re-named the thread to be 'Modern Post-MM2', because I think the set (just like that last Modren Horizons) will fundamentally change the format.

[H]

Every couple of years something happens in Modern to get my attention. The last time it was the unbanning of Stoneforge Mystic. This time it's the printing of Counterspell into Modern, along with the potentially back-breaking new card Diamond Lion (hello dredge my old friend.) I think Diamond Lion will be the mistake of this set for sure.

I re-named the thread to be 'Modern Post-MM2', because I think the set (just like that last Modren Horizons) will fundamentally change the format.

While my love for Counterspell knows no bounds, I am unlikely to really play Modern much still. I barely have time for Legacy as it is. Do you think that Diamond Lion will really be that good, despite costing 2 and not being usable the first turn in play? Honest question, I really don't know how Modern Dredge tends to work, so maybe that isn't a big deal and can still get abused with something like Unearth.

[Mr. Safety]

I think it could potentially be abusable in Dredge, but a friend actually mentioned it could be much better in modern UR Storm. That deck already plays 7-8 creatures to feed combo turns so it dying to Bolt isn't an argument against it...it takes attention away from Baral/Electromancer. If you untap with it, it seems to be game over. It might even open up lines of play with Infernal Tutor.

EDIT: With my only outlet for magic being paper, and sanctioned gameplay opening up at the end of May, I want to have something to play if a store does some events. If it's modern, its modern.

[Ace/Homebrew]

With my only outlet for magic being paper, and sanctioned gameplay opening up at the end of May, I want to have something to play if a store does some events. If it's modern, its modern.
This is more or less my approach as well. Fortunately there is enough overlap in the Legacy/Modern card pools to already have exposure to Modern with a moderate Legacy collection.

I expect MH2 will reshape the Modern and Eternal landscapes in a similar, but perhaps less drastic, fashion as MH1.

[Mr. Safety]

I am really hoping for the 'less drastic' part of your note being correct. New fun stuff? Awesome! Format warping broken shit? Please, no.

What's really interesting is that Modern has become a format where a lot of powerful creatures and spells exist...but without the hyper-efficient dig spells like Brainstorm and Ponder. It creates an interesting world where synergy is valued way more than pure card quality. I mean, when was the last time you heard about traditional Jund (the epitome of card quality deckbuilding) taking a tournament? I think with Jace and Counterspell in the format there could be a legitimate control deck that becomes a pillar of the format.

[Mr. Safety]

There's a ton of juice in MH2 that will really change up the landscape, of note are the cards Counterspell and Grief. Other reprints that may see play are Goblin Bombardment, Mishra's Factory, and Imperial Recruiter. Lots of powerful cards so far, definitely going to shake things up.

[Mr. Safety]

There are so many cards that will affect Modern at this point, so I decided to make a short list of cards that will either 1) develop a new archetype, or 2) shift the dynamics in existing archetypes.

Reprints new to Modern:

Counterspell
Vindicate
Shardless Agent
Solitary Confinement
Enchantress's Presence
Goblin Bombardment
Imperial Recruiter
Flame Rift
Quirion Ranger
Fire // Ice
Sterling Grove
Nevinyrral's Disk
Riptide Laboratory
Mishra's Factory

New Cards:

Grief
Solitude
Fury
Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer
Dauthi Voidwalker
Damn
Profane Tutor
Sudden Edict
Flame Blitz
Flametongue Yearling
Bond Shards
Ignoble Hierarch
Abundant Harvest
Sanctum Weaver
Gaea's Will
Sythis, Hand of the Harvest
Grist, the Hunger Tide
Dakkon, Shadow Slayer
Territorial Kavu
Kaldra Compleat
Sword of Hearth and Home
Brainstone
Fractured Sanity

'Maybe' cards:

Mirari's Wake
Cabal Coffers
Urza's Saga
Tourach, Dread Cantor
Necrogoyf
Unmarked Grave
Persist
Yavimaya Elder
Blazing Roowalla
Rakdos Headliner
Cursed Totem
Sol Talisman
Diamond Lion
Zuran Orb
Upheaval
Wonder


I think the landscape will be *vasty* different after this set releases to Modern. Pretty stoked, NGL.

[Purple Blood]

I have high hopes for this set.

The vast majority of the cards printed are either answers or cards that rely on synergy. To me, that makes for a fun which is interactive yet also avoids situations where the meta devolves down to a bunch of 3-4.

I also very much like how they continue to print cards that with the intent of porting existing decks from Legacy into Modern (e.g. Death and Taxes; Enchantress; Elves) giving new life to under-powered archetypes that could get there (e.g. Madness; Blink).

There doesn't seem to be any super broken cards except for Ragavan which is just a dumb card that feels too much like Arcanist but for one less mana. It should not have had the exile and treasure effect. One or the other is fine but not both. If Arcanist is any precedent, I would not be surprised to see that get banned in Modern and Legacy once they are put into those format's respective UR tempo shells (Blitz and Delver respectively).

In terms of potential disasters: the suspend deck sticks out to me. Tons of enablers: As Foretold, Electrodominance, Collected Conjuring, Finale of Promise. Tons of payoffs: Ancestral Vision, Crashing Footballs, Restore Balance, Profane Tutor, Gaea's Will, Inevitable Betrayal, Lotus Bloom. Just like LED + Infernal Tutor + Past in Flames = Black Lotus + DT + Yag Will, I feel like this shell can end up the same way. I would not be surprised to see this deck wind up being way too good and require multiple bannings. I say multiple because there are now so many enablers and payoffs that just banning a couple things just means they move on the next best thing.

With the new tools available, I hope UWx control ends up being a top deck.

I also kind of hope they will unban GSZ and Punishing Fire. Those don't belong and would probably be perfectly fine in the format. I would love MH3 to have more support for Elves and a Lands deck. Maybe that could coincide with these being unbanned?

[Mr. Safety]

I absolutely think both GSZ and Punishing Fire could be unbanned, along with Splinter Twin. I honestly think Splinter Twin coming off the banlist is in the near future, they have set a precedent with Bitterblossm, Jace, SFM, and Sword of the Meek. None of those cards broke modern, and honestly neither did Twin. If the format is gradually getting more powerful, as we expect it would, then some of the banlist cards look kind of silly.

[kombatkiwi]

I absolutely think both GSZ and Punishing Fire could be unbanned, along with Splinter Twin. I honestly think Splinter Twin coming off the banlist is in the near future, they have set a precedent with Bitterblossm, Jace, SFM, and Sword of the Meek. None of those cards broke modern, and honestly neither did Twin. If the format is gradually getting more powerful, as we expect it would, then some of the banlist cards look kind of silly.

All these other cards (BB Jace SFM sword) were banned since the format's inception then unbanned

Twin saw play, then got banned, it's not entirely comparable. (Same with Pfire)

GSZ would be very strong, a big upgrade for titan decks plus whatever reclaimer etc strategies
Pfire is maybe ok

Twin would definitely still be very good, whether it's a good thing to unban or not idk

[Mr. Safety]

You're totally right, I forgot about GSZ and PFire getting banned after Modern started. My mistake, sorry about that.

I think PFire is safe, I mean, what deck(s) would it be holding down too hard?

GSZ into Titan is probably too strong, I agree with that. I was wracking my brain on what could possibly break GSZ, and PrimeTime is definitely it.

I think unbanning Splinter Twin would create a really cool format, because it means all of the new 'broken' cards that hit the format would all have to consider the Twin paradigm before breaking the format. I could be way off, but I think it would be fun as hell.

[Purple Blood]

Isn't Summoner's Pact flat out better for Amulet Titan since they plan to win the same turn? I suppose GSZ would replace Eladamri's Call but I really don't see it making it much better than it already is. Maybe I'm underestimating GSZ for the smaller targets earlier in the game.

[Reeplcheep]

Gsz for dryad seems way better than the sloth and makes the threat density of the deck insane.

It also seems much stronger than search for tomorrow or Sakura tribe elder in the most brainless deck ever created (Titanshift).

[Purple Blood]

Sloth is good to make extra land drops and also to block so its not guaranteed that GSZ -> Arbor is a better line than Land -> Sloth -> Land but your point makes sense; Titan would definitely be more consistent with GSZ. That being said, I still think it can be safely unbanned.

[Mr. Safety]

So I'm going to throw out a short list of some predictions.

-Shardless Agent is one of the best cards in Modern now.
-Ignoble Hierarch and Tourach will make Jund a good deck again.
-Dragon's Rage Channeler will be slotted into Death's Shadow decks, as they are the decks best at getting delirium
-At least 3 new decks will arise out of the set, likely a new Vengevine/Madness deck that might or might not include Hollow One
-Merfolk will be a tier 2 or better deck with the new cards
-Counterspell is the new normal, and that will make the format better
-Cards that might be too good: Urza's Saga, Dauthi Voidwalker, Ragavan