[Deck] Friggorid [Archive]

john mathias

03-31-2006, 12:25 AM

A fun turn 1.

It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
Mattass plays Polluted Delta from Hand
Mattass taps Polluted Delta
Mattass's life total is now 19 (-1)
Mattass puts Polluted Delta to Graveyard from Play
Mattass is looking its Library...
Mattass puts Underground Sea into play from Library
Mattass shuffles library
Mattass stops looking its Library...
Mattass taps Underground Sea
Mattass plays Careful Study from Hand
<Mattass> Ok?
<Parcher> Ok
Mattass draws a card
Mattass draws a card
Mattass puts Careful Study to Graveyard from Play
Mattass puts Ashen Ghoul to Graveyard from Hand
Mattass puts Golgari Grave-Troll to Graveyard from Hand
Mattass plays Lotus Petal from Hand
Mattass taps Lotus Petal
Mattass puts Lotus Petal to Graveyard from Play
Mattass plays Breakthrough from Hand
<Mattass> Ok?
<Parcher> Ok
<Mattass> oops
<Mattass> May I play a 0 cc Artifact?
<Mattass> Before I cast it?
<Parcher> Ok
Mattass plays Lion's Eye Diamond from Hand
Mattass plays Lion's Eye Diamond from Hand
Mattass puts Breakthrough to Graveyard from Play
Mattass puts Golgari Grave-Troll into play from Graveyard
Mattass puts Cabal Therapy into play from Library
Mattass puts Golgari Grave-Troll into play from Library
Mattass puts Cabal Therapy into play from Library
Mattass puts Stinkweed Imp into play from Library
Mattass puts Ichorid into play from Library
Mattass puts Island into play from Library
Mattass puts Golgari Grave-Troll to Hand from Play
Mattass puts Golgari Grave-Troll to Graveyard from Play
Mattass puts Cabal Therapy to Graveyard from Play
Mattass puts Cabal Therapy to Graveyard from Play
Mattass puts Stinkweed Imp to Graveyard from Play
Mattass puts Ichorid to Graveyard from Play
Mattass puts Island to Graveyard from Play
Mattass puts Golgari Grave-Troll into play from Graveyard
Mattass puts Swamp into play from Library
Mattass puts Deep Analysis into play from Library
Mattass puts Ichorid into play from Library
Mattass puts Mesmeric Fiend into play from Library
Mattass puts Careful Study into play from Library
Mattass puts Tolarian Winds into play from Library
Mattass puts Golgari Grave-Troll to Hand from Play
<Parcher> Ok
Mattass puts Ichorid to Graveyard from Play
Mattass puts Swamp to Graveyard from Play
Mattass puts Deep Analysis to Graveyard from Play
Mattass puts Mesmeric Fiend to Graveyard from Play
Mattass puts Careful Study to Graveyard from Play
Mattass puts Tolarian Winds to Graveyard from Play
Mattass puts Stinkweed Imp into play from Graveyard
Mattass puts Lotus Petal into play from Library
Mattass puts Polluted Delta into play from Library
Mattass puts Cephalid Coliseum into play from Library
Mattass puts Wonder into play from Library
Mattass puts Mesmeric Fiend into play from Library
Mattass puts Psychatog into play from Library
Mattass puts Stinkweed Imp to Hand from Play
Mattass puts Cephalid Coliseum to Graveyard from Play
Mattass puts Lotus Petal to Graveyard from Play
Mattass puts Polluted Delta to Graveyard from Play
Mattass puts Wonder to Graveyard from Play
Mattass puts Mesmeric Fiend to Graveyard from Play
Mattass puts Psychatog to Graveyard from Play
Mattass draws a card
Mattass discards Polluted Delta
Mattass discards Golgari Grave-Troll
Mattass discards Golgari Grave-Troll
Mattass discards Stinkweed Imp
Mattass discards Careful Study
Mattass taps Lion's Eye Diamond
Mattass puts Lion's Eye Diamond to Graveyard from Play
Mattass puts Deep Analysis into play from Graveyard
<Parcher> Ok
<Mattass> Flash back
<Parcher> Ok
Mattass's life total is now 16 (-3)
Mattass puts Deep Analysis to RFG from Play
Mattass puts Golgari Grave-Troll into play from Graveyard
Mattass puts Mesmeric Fiend into play from Library
Mattass puts Lion's Eye Diamond into play from Library
Mattass puts Mesmeric Fiend into play from Library
Mattass puts Ashen Ghoul into play from Library
Mattass puts Cabal Therapy into play from Library
Mattass puts Stinkweed Imp into play from Library
Mattass puts Golgari Grave-Troll to Hand from Play
Mattass puts Ashen Ghoul to Graveyard from Play
Mattass puts Mesmeric Fiend to Graveyard from Play
Mattass puts Lion's Eye Diamond to Graveyard from Play
Mattass puts Mesmeric Fiend to Graveyard from Play
Mattass puts Cabal Therapy to Graveyard from Play
Mattass puts Stinkweed Imp to Graveyard from Play
Mattass puts Golgari Grave-Troll into play from Graveyard
Mattass puts Stinkweed Imp into play from Library
Mattass puts Ichorid into play from Library
Mattass puts Polluted Delta into play from Library
Mattass puts Golgari Grave-Troll into play from Library
Mattass puts Tolarian Winds into play from Library
Mattass puts Lion's Eye Diamond into play from Library
Mattass puts Golgari Grave-Troll to Hand from Play
Mattass puts Tolarian Winds to Graveyard from Play
Mattass puts Stinkweed Imp to Graveyard from Play
Mattass puts Ichorid to Graveyard from Play
Mattass puts Polluted Delta to Graveyard from Play
Mattass puts Golgari Grave-Troll to Graveyard from Play
Mattass puts Lion's Eye Diamond to Graveyard from Play
Mattass's life total is now 15 (-1)
<Mattass> End my turn

Citrus-God

03-31-2006, 01:53 PM

Most of you should know me.

Anywho, this is the unconventional forum so I decided to try this here.

// Lands
1 [RAV] Swamp
1 [7E] Island
2 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [B] Bayou
3 [B] Underground Sea
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond

// Creatures
3 [IA] Ashen Ghoul
2 [OD] Psychatog
4 [TO] Mesmeric Fiend
4 [TO] Ichorid
1 [JU] Wonder
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll

// Spells
12 [TO] Deep Analysis
4 [OD] Careful Study
3 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [US] Tolarian Winds
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 4 [OD] Moment's Peace
SB: XXX?

I've been having loads of luck online with this and am undefeated in matches.

Most of my opponents have been dropping, those ******s.

Holy Shit! Your playing 1.5 now?

Anyway, why are there 12 Deep Anals?

tpnp

03-31-2006, 02:07 PM

Probably because there are 58 cards in the main deck without those 12 Deep Analysis to make it 70, duh.

Or it could just be a typo and actually be only 2 in the main.

john mathias

03-31-2006, 04:02 PM

Ahem, two Deep.

Thoughts on the deck?

It's been playing quite well.

bigredmeanie

03-31-2006, 04:22 PM

Why mesmeric fiend? Wouldn't another discard outlet be better in that slot?

Breakthrough seems like a good card, but this deck also seems like it really wants to discard before it casts draw, which is why Tolarian Winds is so good. Flux does the same thing as Tolarian Winds but it costs 3 and says each player.

There should be at least 2 wonder IMO. You absolutely have to dredge into them.

How have you decided to get around problematic cards like Goblin Sharpshooter, and STP, and Tormod's Crypt.

Pinder

03-31-2006, 04:44 PM

I think Zombie Infestation would be much bettter than Mesmeric Fiend in any case. I am intrigued by the inclusion of Lion's Eye Diamond. Dicard outlet, and mana accel? Sounds pretty sexy to me.

EDIT: Has anyone tested Ghastly Demise at all? It seems like mid to late game (and even early game in some cases), it could kill just about anything.

john mathias

03-31-2006, 06:03 PM

Fiend is very powerful do to being a creature. That is very, very relevant in here.

Breakthrough doesn't hit like winds but for 1 mana you go nuts and if you had LED you probably just won the game.

Crypt isn't a big deal. Dredging put those cards back into your hand. Quite often I'll be gripping a fist of Dredge with LED in play. If they pop Crypt I'll just take a Bolt to go nuts again.

STP is completely irrelevant.

Sharpshooter can be a problem but he is quite slow and you have a lot of possible SB answers. Even more relevantly he won't come down due to Therapies for him and/or Matron.

Zilla

03-31-2006, 06:11 PM

I've been having loads of luck online with this and am undefeated in matches.
Would you care to be more specific? What have you been playing against? Are your opponents competent, and are they playing competitive decklists? What are they boarding against you?

Note that Friggorid has been discussed (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1292) here from within a couple of days of its debut in Extended. The common sentiment has been that it's very fast and aggressive, but that it has severe problems with some of the msot prominent hate in the format. Namely, nearly every competent player is playing Tormod's Crypt or other grave hate as a metagame response to Threshold and myriad other decks which abuse the yard. Crypt is a nightmare for Friggorid, even if you happen to be running Pithing Needle in the board.

On the subject of Pithing Needle, it's also not pleasant for Friggorid, as it shuts down Ashen Ghoul recursion and Cephalid Colliseum activation. Needle is obviously a sideboard staple in this format as well.

Furthermore, unlike Extended, Swords to Plowshares is legal in this format, which lessens the impact of recurring Ghouls and Ichorids.

Next, we have rampant creature hate like Humility, Moat, and Lightning Rift, all of which successfully hate on Ichorid and co.

Further, there's a wide prevalence of Umezawa's Jitte in the format, which, once active, utterly destroys your threats.

To a lesser degree, an active Goblin Sharpshooter can be a real problem for your threats as well, and you'll find that in a great many Vial Goblins builds, as well as RG Survival.

Lastly (and perhaps leastly), we have a high contingent of decks running Engineered Plague as an answer to Goblins. Incidentally, Plague is quite effective when naming Horrors primarily, and Ghouls secondarily.

In short, the metagame is highly prepared for the deck's strategy, even if only incidentally so. It has no board control of its own, so resolved hate is a major roadblock. Further, the deck's greatest strength and advantage over an equally aggressive deck like Goblins is its high resilience to blue-based control, which is almost non-existent in this format, at least for the time being.

I'd like to hear your take on it, particularly in terms of specificity with regards to the matchups you've been testing; how are your opponents sideboarding against you, and how are you overcoming the hate?

Aggro_zombies

03-31-2006, 08:37 PM

Wow, Zilla, that's harsh...but true, too true.

The targeted graveyard hate can be generally dealt with by Ground Seal, I guess, although it's not a fabulous option given that this deck wants to go balls to the wall aggro and every card in it is either a creature or a card that fills up your 'yard so you can get creatures back. Ground Seal doesn't necessarily help either of those strategies, but in this case I suppose "not dying to a zero cc artifact" > "synergy," so...

As for the creature hate, most of the permanent stuff you mention consists of enchantments, which can be dealt with by Ray of Revelation.

This still doesn't solve the issues of: non-targeted graveyard hate (stuff like Leyline of the Void, Planar Void, etc), creature removal (like StP), nasty artifacts (Needle and Jitte), and being generally easier to disrupt than Goblins and Threshold. Sure, this deck can be pretty explosive, but as Zilla said, you're playing it in a format that's primarily hostile to what you're trying to accomplish, alongside other aggro decks that are much better than it, imo.

My advice? Play Goblins.

MattH

04-01-2006, 12:46 AM

Next, we have rampant creature hate like Humility, Moat, and Lightning Rift, all of which successfully hate on Ichorid and co.
All Rift does is put creatures in the graveyard...yeah. And Moat...well, Wonder. And all of these...Ray of Revelation. And in this deck, yes, you CAN be sure of seeing Ray every time you need to, because you're going to regularly be seeing half your deck by turn five.

(And I'm not really sure about the layers of static abilities and +1/+1 counters, , but Golgari Grave-Troll I think happens to take a huge shit on Humility.)

Crypt and Leyline, on the other hand, are pretty hardcore problems, since not only are they devastating and hard to answer, but they also come down immediately, and Leyline even happens to shut off Ray. But the creature sanction - even StP - is not really a problem.

Zilla

04-01-2006, 04:42 AM

All Rift does is put creatures in the graveyard...yeah. And Moat...well, Wonder. And all of these...Ray of Revelation. And in this deck, yes, you CAN be sure of seeing Ray every time you need to, because you're going to regularly be seeing half your deck by turn five.
Granted. It doesn't mean these aren't hinderances to the deck's gameplan. They're stall tactics which exist primarily in control decks which only need a stall to get it to the lategame. I agree that these types of enchantments are the least of the decks problems, but in my experience, they have been problems.

I guess what I'm saying is, Figgorid, in my mind, falls into the same category as Ravager Affinity and to a lesser extent UG Madness; they're lightning fast aggro decks with a lot of synergy but with little to no board control to speak of. They're great against unprepared opponents, but have a tendency to roll over and die in a prepared metagame, because they have few ways to answer significant roadbloacks to their respective strategies. It just happens that the metagame is largely prepared right now, and has been for several months. Should the metagame make a massive shift towards blue-based control, then I could see Friggorid being an excellent choice. In the meanwhile, I'm not seeing a lot of reason to play it over Goblins, because despite the fact that everyone is gunning for Goblins, it has a strong tendency to win through concentrated hate.

I'm open to the discussion to the contrary, but with all due respect to Senor Mathias, the "I smashed a bunch of nubs on MWS" argument doesn't make for a particularly compelling thesis with regards to the deck's viability, in my opinion.

With that said, understand that I want the archetype to be good. It's a blast to play, I'm an aggro player at heart, and Cabal Therapy is my favorite card ever. I just keep shelving the deck because it keeps running into hate that stops it cold. I like some of John's innovations. The LED's are an interesting choice, and the Breakthroughs are golden (I've been testing them since Josh Sylvestri suggested them to me a couple weeks back).

John, my questions and observations before weren't rhetorical, so please don't take them as such. I'm just pointing out what have been the harsh realities in my experience, and I'm wondering if you were having similar difficulties. If so, how specifically has your build been doing against the hate?

MonkeY

04-01-2006, 12:46 PM

Most of you should know me.

I know I should, but who are you?

The deck looks interesting and fun. I can't see it being competitive, but LED is a grea addition. I would up the number of Ashen Ghouls and cut 'Tog, cause he sux in a format with StP and the like. I would be really worried about the Rifter match up - they will beat you every game with STP, so maybe add something to combat that - not sure what, though.

Aggro_zombies

04-01-2006, 03:39 PM

...so maybe add something to combat that - not sure what, though.
Hmmm...well, one thing you could consider would be some sort of sacrifice outlet, preferably of the enchantment or artifact type. Unfortunately, the only things coming to my addled, sleep-deprived mind right now are Plagued Rusalka and Spawning Pool...or is it Spawning Pit? Whichever one it is, it probably isn't appropriate for this deck. But if you can find some sort of sacrifice outlet that generates a useful effect, it would be something to consider to beat StP - because if you sacrifice your creatures, you can at least get them back at some later point, as opposed to not seeing them again this game.

Is there some sort of Goblin Bombardment-like card in black that makes players lose life? I keep thinking there is, but I can't remember what it's called...if there is such a card, that might be something to consider, as a way to both push through the final points of damage and to save your creatures from "remove from the game" effects.

EDIT: I say consider quite a bit, don't I? Ah well, perhaps I should consider changing that...

Zilla

04-01-2006, 04:03 PM

Actually, StP is one of the lesser problems for the deck. I brought it up before because it is an issue, but it's more of a roadblock than a total foil. I don't think it's worth adding more cards to answer StP; Cabal Therapy does a pretty good job of that most of the time.

The main thing the deck needs to focus on are finding a consistent way to beat grave hate. Needle alone hasn't been enough, in my experience.

MattH

04-01-2006, 04:48 PM

Tog may die to StP but will never take your graveyard with him, because of Therapy. Therapy THEN pump.

john mathias

04-02-2006, 07:09 PM

I've been away due to life stuff and I had a Team Standard Tournament(8th place).

Now that I am back I'll address some of this.

I test using MWS since I don't have a dedicated group of playtesters for Legacy nor know where to find them. Randoms are sadly the best I can do.

Crypt isn't nearly as game ending as you all seem to think. If they cast it you have many Dredge cards in hand and it is only a matter of time before you go nuts again.

Leyline/Planar are a lot worse and would involve Rawdogging a SB Ray.

Needle is kind of irrelevant. You can just smash through it.

StP slows you down a bit but at the end doesn't matter.

Against Humity you just Recur a Troll.

Flying>Moat.

To stop Plague you have Ray. Game One you can just play fat.

The deck needs a lot of small tweaks. Probably a Moxen split and definately a second Wonder. A Loam/Portal seems light it could be quality as well, and the additional Ghoul seems quite good. Would a solo Nether Spirit work if you stacked your upkeep correctly?

Also, it may need more DA's.

Lego

04-02-2006, 07:54 PM

Crypt isn't nearly as game ending as you all seem to think. If they cast it you have many Dredge cards in hand and it is only a matter of time before you go nuts again.

Whenever I've played the deck, this has not been the case. I've found the best plan is to go all out, meaning by turn 3 or 4, sometimes earlier, you'll have no hand at all, meaning you really can't recover from Crypt. Are you saying that you're normally maintaining a large hand size, or that you simply slow-play when Crypt is involved? How quickly are you killing with this deck?

Zilla

04-02-2006, 08:11 PM

Crypt isn't nearly as game ending as you all seem to think. If they cast it you have many Dredge cards in hand and it is only a matter of time before you go nuts again.
I think this because I've tested with and against the deck quite a bit and it has, by and large, been true. In most cases, you simply let the Friggorid player beat you down to ~5 life or so, and then decimate their yard, which by that time tends to have the majority of their threats in it. It's also been my experience that the deck tends not to maintain a significant hand size, if any at all, once they get their dredge on. Particularly with LED in the mix, I'm surprised you're finding any opportunity to recover from an activated Crypt. If your opponent foolishly blows it very early on, then it's certainly less threatening, but it's been a very large roadblock in testing.

As for testing partners, a large percentage of the people on this site test regularly on MWS, and are always happy to have more partners. Myself, LegoSpaceMan, frogboy, TheInfamousBearAssassin, Peter_Rotten, Artowis, Evil Roopey, and many others are available via AIM, play on MWS, and a have a solid grip on the format. That's only naming the few that I play with regularly; there are plenty of others. If you're serious about testing against competent players, I suggest sending out a few PM's or IM's - you won't lack testing partners for long. You'll still have the misfortune of dealing with the MWS shuffler, but I guess that's a necessary evil. Congrats on your recent T8.

Zilla

04-02-2006, 10:16 PM

For these reasons i would switch fiends for therapies.
Soooo... he should run 8 Therapies then? There are already 4 in that list.

Seriously though, I'd drop the Fiends for Wonder #2, Ghoul #4, Tog #3, and 1 more Breakthrough or Deep A.

MattH

04-03-2006, 02:06 AM

I for one think that the fiends should be excluded from the list. Cabal therapy is a good one mana answer to a lot of the hate you are facing, is not dead once milled into the graveyard, and can be used twice. Mesmeric is dead once in the graveyard, is an irrelevant creature for two mana, and only take one card. For these reasons i would switch fiends for therapies.
It's not dead in the yard. It fuels Ichorid.

Lego

04-03-2006, 12:58 PM

It's not dead in the yard. It fuels Ichorid.

So does Chimney Imp. We're not advocating that either.

Caleb

04-03-2006, 04:01 PM

So does Chimney Imp. We're not advocating that either.

He wasn't advocating it for the sole purpose of fueling ich in the yard. Obviously he was advocating its use as disruption, and was responding to someone's claim that it did nothing in the yard... which it does. Making your post pointless.

I don't see the problem w/ Fiends. They make your therapies better, and provide a creature in the yard (unlike duress). On the other hand, they're bad vs. gobbs, and dont dredge or promote dredging.

EDIT: What about sb Chalice for Tormod's Crypt? Just take out the LED's for it, then drop it turn one (so it doesnt slow you down). There's problems with it, but it's an idea.

Zilla

04-03-2006, 07:32 PM

EDIT: What about sb Chalice for Tormod's Crypt? Just take out the LED's for it, then drop it turn one (so it doesnt slow you down). There's problems with it, but it's an idea.
SB Chalice is only a reliable answer to Crypt if you're on the play. Furthermore, the removal of LED will negatively impact the deck's consistency and explosiveness. Chalice is strictly inferior to Pithing Needle with regards to Crypt hate. Needle doesn't need to be played before Crypt to shut it down, it doesn't force you to lose your LED's, and it's useful against other forms of grave hate like Phyrexian Furnace and Withered Wretch.

john mathias

04-03-2006, 11:12 PM

Rambo

04-03-2006, 11:19 PM

Whoa! That's quite a change. I really hate the 11 acceleration pieces and the exclusion of Psychatog. That guy can end games on turn 3. Seriously, I think the other list was better.

Proper English for the win. You ought to try it. - Zilla

john mathias

04-04-2006, 10:17 PM

Psychatog will probably be moved to the board.

The deck is more consistant now.

What are your thoughts on Akuta and why do you not like the rampant accel?

john mathias

04-05-2006, 07:56 PM

The new mana base is much more explosive and potent.

Akuta has been working okay. At worse he is a black body.

Any opinions?

Please do not double post. There is an edit function---frogboy

3eowulf

05-17-2006, 12:24 PM

How long does it take to fill the yard with creatures?

I was wondering if the Ichorid.dec base (or more appropriately it's dredge base) could be altered and used to combo with Haunting Misery and/or Mortal Combat, or Songs of the Damned+any X spell...

Comments?

Pinder

05-20-2006, 07:13 PM

So, I know this is old news and all, but I'm still fiddling with my Friggorid list and I like your input. Here goes:

//Land
4 Underground Sea
4 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
3 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Island
2 Swamp

//Engine
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Life from the Loam
2 Wonder

//Draw
4 Tolarian Winds
3 Deep Analysis

//Win
4 Ichorid
4 Ashen Ghoul

//Other Creatures/Ichorid Fodder
4 Psychatog
4 Putrid Imp

//Other Spells
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Zombie Infestations

//SB

4 Ground Seal
4 Pithing Needle
?????????????

I'm not sure about all of you, but I absolutely love Ground Seal. Mostly because it stops most graveyard removal in its tracks (especially the Withered Wretches that are overrunning my meta), and it draws (read: dredges) you a card, so you don't lose that much tempo. It doesn't stop Tormod's Crypt, but I suppose that's what the needles are for.

The main things I think really need fixing with this deck are these:

It only packs 7 draw spells. Generally, that's all I need (esp. with a turn 2 Winds), but occasionally the deck stalls and I don't get any reliable draw :(. And what do people think of Brainstorm? It dredges three cards for one mana (which is incredible), but it also makes you lose two draws. I suppose though, that you could just dredge them off the top with something in your graveyard...

It only has 8 non-Ichorid, non-Ashen Ghoul, non-Dredgeable fodder for Ichorid. Any suggestions on other creatures that wouldn't be completely dead, and what I could take out for them? I know thta Akuta has already been mentioned in this thread, but I never seem to have more cards in hand (or that many swamps, for that matter).

It doesn't have enough discard outlets. This may sound wierd, because I run 11, but I suppose I should say it doesn't have fast enough discard outlets. Generally with ZI I get stuck with only one card, and no way to make zombies. And Psychatog rarely hits the table (he's usually dredged), and when he does he seems to hit too late. Putrid Imp is a star, but there's only four of him in there. Combined with the comment above, I suppose that what I'm looking for is a cheap black creature that allows you to discard a single card, and isn't Putrid Imp. Any suggestions?

Poron

05-21-2006, 07:37 PM

I would advice Putrid Imp instead of the 1/1 2cc.

it's black, it's a creature, can fuel ichorid, cost 1 if played, can be a 2/2 and let you to discard everything you need :D

Pinder

05-21-2006, 10:06 PM

I would advice Putrid Imp instead of the 1/1 2cc.

it's black, it's a creature, can fuel ichorid, cost 1 if played, can be a 2/2 and let you to discard everything you need :D

Um.....I already run 4 in the main. Perhaps I wasn't clear. I'm looking for something to replace Zombie Infestation. Or Psycahtog.

Ridiculous Hat

05-22-2006, 12:01 AM

You need to play Psychatog. It's the best creature in the deck. If you dredge it then you remove it to Ichorid, and if you have it in your opening hand then you play it and kill them next turn. The card is ridiculous.

Pinder

05-22-2006, 05:11 PM

I agree. Psychatog is too good when I actually get him to pass up.

I just stumbled across another card that I think might work over ZI, though. What do you think of Undead Gladiator:

Creature--Zombie Barbarian

1B, Discard a Card: Return Undead Gladiator from your graveyard to your hand. Play this ability only during your upkeep.

Cycling 1B
3/1

The fact that you can only return him during your upkeep does make him a little slow, but the thing I like best about him is that he has cycling. You can discard a dredge card to return him during your upkeep, dredge during your draw step, then use his cycling to dredge another card. Repeat as neccesary. Strictly speaking, for every 2BB you have during your upkeep, you can repeat this process with just the Gladiator and one other card (discard to the gladiator, cycle for dredge, discard to gladiator...). And he provides another warm, black body for Ichorid fuel. Appreciate your opinions, will playtest.

FRM

05-23-2006, 05:17 AM

SB Chalice is only a reliable answer to Crypt if you're on the play. Furthermore, the removal of LED will negatively impact the deck's consistency and explosiveness. Chalice is strictly inferior to Pithing Needle with regards to Crypt hate. Needle doesn't need to be played before Crypt to shut it down, it doesn't force you to lose your LED's, and it's useful against other forms of grave hate like Phyrexian Furnace and Withered Wretch.
Still, chalice can cause problems to a very large array of format defining cards when set at 1... I do play a different list, but i find myself to put into play no more than 2 lands if i want to start aggro (which i feel friggorid should do ALWAYS). By that time i have played my chrome mox/LED (i.e. before the chalice) and i usually won't draw any single card from my deck, meaning that i just won't care about countering my own 0cc spells... with chalice at 1 i lose only cabal therapy, which is a major problem, though (i do not play breakthrough, i prefer 4 DA). Chalice seems a bit random, but can be worthwile, i'll test it as soon as i can :)

Neonico

05-23-2006, 09:03 AM

I tried to build my own friggorid deck more with the vintage version in mind than the extended version. This leaded me to try to find a better configuration to abuse Cephalid coliseum as fast as possible (In fact, as fast as the vintage version abuse Bazaar) and found it with Ritual + Buried alive. As a bonus, Buried alive can fetch for Tog/Thug/Wonder combo for the late game, especially against Gro.

My list is :

4 Buried Alive
4 Dark Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Ichorid
4 Ashen Goul
3 Psychatog
4 Putrid Imp
1 Golgari Thug
1 Wonder
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 StinkWeed Imp

4 Mox Chrome/Lotus Petal
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
4 Cephalid coliseum
1 Island
1 Swamp

Some choices are really debatable but every card in the maindeck is here to abuse the buried alive gameplan. Chrome Mox/Lotus Petal (I really cant choose the best) is to play around daze (For a turn one Buried alive powered by ritual), ritual power it really well.

The classic Gameplan is to buried alive Goul, Troll, Troll and to start dredging for the second upkeep (As a bonus with brainstorm), and second turn with coliseum. The goal is to have threshold as soon as possible.

Every card in the engine is also usefull for the late game. Buried allive to fetch the tog kill (With Thug/wonder), Dark Ritual/mox to recur gouls and so on.

Deep analysis/Zombie infest are moved to the sideboard (for the control matchup). Ray of revelation are included, so is chalice/Needle for crypt hate.

This version gave me some really better results than any list from extend and i really prefer it. That said, even if i love it alot and doing some really good results with ichorid in Vintage / Extend, i still think that this deck isnt made for Legacy metagame, where aggro and aggro control are so much played.

On a side note, i tested Undead gladiator and its a really good option as well but unfortunatly, its too slow and not easily hardcastable to justify it over buried alive.

Mirrislegend

05-23-2006, 10:44 AM

How often does Friggorid.dec deck itself? In the games I have played against it, decking is a very real threat. Has anyone had this issue, or is it just me?

Pinder

05-23-2006, 07:07 PM

I've never decked myself in a game I've played with Friggorid. The closest I've come is having only two cards left in my library (ironicaly against Solidarity, but I still won the match).

Generally, whenever you get close to decking yourself, you should have won by then. In most cases, when I win I usually have 20+ cards left in my library.

Ridiculous Hat

05-24-2006, 02:59 PM

Anusien

05-24-2006, 03:15 PM

Ridiculous Hat

05-24-2006, 04:04 PM

Why cut the Zombie Infestations? I've found that they have the potential to be the absolute best card in the deck, especially when they're running over Goblins and Threshold. They're so good that I run Squees.It depends on the direction you want to go with the deck. LFTL can actually be quite powerful with the card as well, but I think with that particular decklist you want more mana and speed and less ZIs. If you go for a squee/zi build that's not quite the same deck. Personally, I don't really like ZI because it is not yard-active at all, but it could be a necessary metagame consideration.

Pinder

05-24-2006, 10:39 PM

I think that in most instances, ZI is either very good or very bad. I especially like the way it interacts with LftL, however. With a ZI, Loam nets you a land drop and a zombie every turn. Or, if you have another card in hand, two zombies :D. The principle is the same with Deep Anals. The only problem I generally find with it is that it's fairly slow unless you have some sort of engine like that with it. Without a way to draw outside of your draw step, eventually you'll have to wait two turns in order to make one zombie :(.

@Ridiculous Hat: I'm not so sure about the Moxen. I used to run 3 maindeck, but I ended up taking them out. t2 Psychatog is nice, but generally I find that with a chrome mox t1 Tolarian Winds tends to be less than stellar. Consider this situation, on the play:

Drop a land (6 cards in hand)
Drop Mox, remove for imprint (4 cards in hand)
Play Winds (3 cards in hand)

I just don't like the idea of using 4 cards out of my opening hand just for a turn 1 winds. I'd rather wait till turn 2, where even if I had a turn 1 play I can still Winds for 4. I do like the idea of acceleration, though. Perhaps a less prohibitive 0 cost mana source? Lotus petal would let you winds for 4 first turn on the play. Even mox diamond, which requires the same card commitment, seems better simply because it can tap for U,G, or B and because you can always nab the discarded land with a Loam later on...

@Anusien: I don't think that Squee really belongs in this list, just because returning to your hand is what dredge cards are for. And they have the added bonus of dumping cards from your library into your graveyard. It's for this reason mainly that I would run just about any dredge card over Squees in this particular deck.

Bongo

05-29-2006, 06:16 PM

// Mana
1 [RAV] Swamp
1 [7E] Island
1 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [B] Underground Sea
1 [JU] Riftstone Portal
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
3 [TE] Lotus Petal

// Discard
4 [OD] Careful Study
4 [US] Tolarian Winds
3 [TO] Breakthrough

// Wins
4 [IA] Ashen Ghoul
4 [TO] Ichorid
1 [SOK] Akuta, Born of Ash
2 [JU] Wonder

// Dredge
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
2 [RAV] Golgari Thug

// Flashback
3 [TO] Deep Analysis
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 4 [OD] Moment's Peace
??????????????????

Updated List!

I think this list has a lot of potential.

1) Has Brainstorm been tested?

2) What about Darkblast? Creature removal is almost always useful in Legacy.

3) How has the card disadvantage from 4 Chrome Mox been?

If you can find the space, I would definitely include the 4th Deep Analysis.

The Rack

06-09-2006, 02:30 AM

Has Putrid Imp been an option? It can discard whatever you don't want and can beat overhead for 2.

Pinder

06-12-2006, 03:59 PM

I think this list has a lot of potential.

1) Has Brainstorm been tested?

2) What about Darkblast? Creature removal is almost always useful in Legacy.

3) How has the card disadvantage from 4 Chrome Mox been?

If you can find the space, I would definitely include the 4th Deep Analysis.

1) I hadn't tested brainstorm much before now, but I let a friend borrow my build (should be the same as the last one I posted), and he put in 4x brainstorm, taking out (I believe) 3 ZIs and 1 DA. He went 3-1, so it it can't be all bad, I suppose. I was worried about dredging 3 and then losing two draws, but apparently the cards you put back usually get dredged out the next turn anyway. And the card is flat out INSANE with Psychatog (go figure). I will definitely be taking a closer look at this one.

2) I've tried running darkblast both MD and SB, but it just isn't powerful enough. It shores up your game against Goblins (a little), but beyond that it just doesn't kill enough stuff. Right now I run 3x Ghastly Demise over it in the board, becuase it usually just flat-out kills anything nonblack (in my meta this means Exalted Angel, as there are at least 3 Angel Stax builds running around). It doesn't kill Withered Wretch,of course, but then neither does Darkblast.

3) I'm still not sure how I feel about Chrome Mox. The mana accel is nice, but all I ever really used it for was a turn 1 Tolarian Winds. And a turn 1 Winds with Chrome Mox is only for 3 :(. On the other hand, it does nab you a turn 2 Psychatog. Guess this one's really just a matter of opinion.

@The Rack: I run 4x Putrid Imp and I love them. I can't see why anyone wouldn't run them.

And how is LED working out for the people that run it? I can understand that it's a great discard outlet, but what do you use the mana for? Flashback, I suppose?

Bane of the Living

06-12-2006, 06:36 PM

Why isnt anyone in the world of Ichorid trying to use Chains of Mephistopheles anymore? The card has ridiculous potential and creates more of a maindeck answer to decks like Solidarity, Rifter, and Thresh.

Anusien

06-12-2006, 09:22 PM

AnwarA101

06-12-2006, 09:43 PM

Probably because Chains causes each of your draws to be a Dredge 1, which is fairly pathetic. I mean, yes you can circumvent the downside, but those slots would be spent better on stuff that beats down.

I don't see how current builds beat Goblins. Doesn't Goblin Sharpshooter equal game over?

Why can't you Darkblast Goblin Sharpshooter? If he haste and Goblin Warchief has stayed in play then you are probably in trouble anyway. Isn't the real problem that you have no reliable way of playing spells that get dredged into your yard except your creatures? Like you could play Engineered Plague in the board but you have very little way of finding it especially if you are dredging every turn.

My Name Is Scott

06-12-2006, 10:37 PM

Why can't you Darkblast Goblin Sharpshooter? If he haste and Goblin Warchief has stayed in play then you are probably in trouble anyway. Isn't the real problem that you have no reliable way of playing spells that get dredged into your yard except your creatures? Like you could play Engineered Plague in the board but you have very little way of finding it especially if you are dredging every turn.
Has anyone suggested crippling fatigue?

Pinder

06-13-2006, 02:01 AM

Has anyone suggested crippling fatigue?

I've never really given it much thought. It could work. Not sure what I'd take out though. And the free bolt you give them is pretty rough. In any case, I'd run darkblast before fatigue (and I dont' run darkblast). It's reusable, and instant, whereas fatigue is sorcery.

I don't see how current builds beat Goblins. Doesn't Goblin Sharpshooter equal game over?

Well, Goblins pretty much equals game over even without sharpshooter. You can race them on occasion, but usually they're a little too fast. It's just not a good matchup. Given my experience against Goblins, it's about 65-35 in their favor. You win some of the time, but typically only when you get a nice hand. Anything short of a T2 Tolarian Winds is just too slow to keep up.

Like Zilla earlier in the thread, this deck really shines against control because it's fairly resilient. Unfortunately, there's not a whole lot of control (or even combo, which Friggorid is decent against) in Legacy right now. And it catches tons of residual hate from Thresh. Friggorid showed up right when the meta hated it most. Poor thing *sniff*. Still a blast to play though.

emidln

06-13-2006, 10:32 AM

Probably because Chains causes each of your draws to be a Dredge 1, which is fairly pathetic. I mean, yes you can circumvent the downside, but those slots would be spent better on stuff that beats down.

The upside is that Chains is absolutely retarded with any sort of card draw like Brainstorm, Careful Study, etc. That it complicates your opponent's life is just a nice bonus.

Brainstorm with a single Chains out goes like this:

Pitch Dredger
Dredge
Pitch Dredger
Dredge
Pitch Dredger

and you have whatever you're dredging for x3 in your yard for U.

Pinder

06-13-2006, 03:56 PM

That's actually a pretty good point. Using a single dredge card multiple times does sound appealing. I can't count how many times I've run out of steam by not nabbing other dredge cards when I dredge, and ended up drawing the other 3 cards of a TW. And the fact that it makes your opponent's life a little harder isn't that bad either. Could this be the bit of disruption that helps us shore up our problem matches? Playtesting to ensue.

EDIT: On second thought, even though it has incredible synergy with Brainstorm et al, if I'm reading the card right it has terrible synergy with Tolarian Winds. Play winds for 4, and instead of getting 4 Dredges, you just mill 4 cards. Ouch. Perhaps Chains would be better suited for a more control based (probably just U/B) Friggorid build? Something with lots of control and disruption (ala Chains, Standstill, Countermagic....) It's worth a look into, I think.

TheDarkshineKnight

08-04-2006, 04:52 PM

Now that we're in the "Post-Goblins Environment," maybe it's about time we started talking about good old Friggorid again. We still have the problem of Tormod's Crypt, so mainboarding Piting Needles is probably a must. Also, I do believe it would be good for us to run mono-black for good stuff like Cabal Therapy and Unmask whichkill Crypt before it comes on to the field. Also, maybe we should run Leyline of the Void, since it kills Threshold.

So far, I'm looking at a base like:

4 Ashen Ghoul
4 Golgari Grave-troll
4 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Unmask

4 Pithing Needle

4 Leyline of the Void

SuckerPunch

08-04-2006, 06:10 PM

I don't have much to contribute.

But I just want to state that this is such an insanely cool concept for a deck. I'm so building it asap.

Pinder

08-04-2006, 06:57 PM

I'm happy to see my favoritest deck ever be 'dredged' (pardon the horrible pun) back from the graveyard.

I agree with maindecking Pithing Needle, as 9 times out of 10 it will end up coming in from the board anyway, but I'm not so sure about making the deck mono-black. With blue you get four wonderful cards in Tolarian Winds (you know, the card that puts half your lirbrary into your graveyard on turn 2), Deep Analysis (card draw/dredge you can use from your graveyard), Brainstorm (dredging 3 times for U is still insane, even if you do lose 2 cards), and Wonder (evasion FTW!). Cutting the green might be an option, although I hate to lose the Ground Seals from the sideboard and the ability to play Grave-Troll late game (which wins games against Rifter, as Grave-Troll is immune to Humility and regularly comes out as a 13/13 or bigger).

Maybe we could go back to running Riftstone Portal. There's a reason it was in the extended version when it debuted, and once it hits the yard it turns your basic lands into wasteland-proof sources of three different mana. And it would also give us access to white, for hardcasting Ray of Revelation. It also gives us access to my next great idea! [/hubris]

I was thinking that the main problem we were having against Tormod's Crypt was that it targets the player, not the cards, so Ground Seal is useless against it. I was thinking that if only there were a way to make ourselves untargetable, we might be able to survive against Crypt long enough to bring in the win. It hit me when I realized that Portal gives us access to white: Solitary confinement. It makes us immune to Crypt (and Piledriver and Werebear and Brain Freeze and Tendrils). It also makes us skip our draw step, which isn't great, but we could stick in some kind of Loam/Confinement engine to keep up the card advantage (and all the Loam+cycling makes Psychatog very happy anyway). It would require some significant modifications to the deck, but it's worth a look at, at least.

If that doesn't work, we could always go for a card which is more narrow, but potentially more useful and which requires a lot less to compensate for it:Gilded Light (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=43623). The things I like about it is that it's instant, so you can use it after they pop a Crypt (weeeee!) and that it's never really a dead card, because it has cycling. It also stops Solidarity and Iggy Pop in their tracks.

On that same note though, Stifle answers all the same problems, is a full mana cheaper, and just as instant.

Tell me what you think.

Zilla

08-04-2006, 07:08 PM

We still have the problem of Tormod's Crypt, so mainboarding Piting Needles is probably a must.
I disagree. No one runs Crypt in the maindeck, so maindecked Pithing Needle as an answer to that alone is illogical. Definitely run it as a 3 or 4-of in the board as an answer to Crypt games 2 and 3, but why clutter the maindeck with it?

As for the heavy mono-black disruption, it shouldn't be that necessary, at least not in the maindeck. You need to focus a lot of the deck on blue-based draw in order to maximize your dredges and therefore the deck's overall speed. This deck isn't a control deck, and shouldn't try to become one. It is arguably the most purely aggressive deck in the format, with the possible exceptions of Burn and Goblins. That is its greatest strength. Attempting to transform it into a more controlling deck will inevitably diminish this.

Pinder

08-05-2006, 12:11 AM

I suppose that maindecking Needles against a sideboard card is a little frivolous, but I think that maindecking maybe 1 or 2 is worth it because it stops other things that are run maindeck, like sharpshooter, or Withered Wretch (which is maindecked in just about everything black in my meta). It could help shore up your match against some of Friggorid's problem matches.

TheDarkshineKnight

08-05-2006, 01:11 AM

Zilla

08-05-2006, 01:54 AM

It could help shore up your match against some of Friggorid's problem matches.
It could also slow you down against everything else. Obviously this comes down to the number of decks in your meta with maindecked problems for you compared to decks without maindecked problems for you. In my meta, I certainly wouldn't maindeck them. Besides, the specific problems you mentioned are both answered by Darkblast, which also has Dredge, which means it serves a dual purpose, unlike Needle. Just a thought.

Pinder

08-05-2006, 02:34 AM

I suppose you have a point there. As for darkblast, I'll give you sharpshooter, but it doesn't do anything against Wretch. I know there's the whole 'darkblast during upkeep, dredge, darkblast again' thing to deal with 2 toughness dudes, but Wretch will remove it before you ever get to dredge it. And if you try and dredge with a draw spell in response to Wretch, they can always do it again. It's very hard to kill a Wretch with Darkblast. Even so, Needles probably do belong in the sideboard.

I've also come to the conclusion that Solitary Confinement would require way to many changes that would slow the deck down to sheer pointlessness (or at least non-viableness). I do, however, think Gilded Light warrants a closer look. I haven't done any testing yet, but the fact that you can play it in response to an activated crypt (or a Brain Freeze or Tendrils) makes me happy. I suppose that, as I mentioned before, Stifle does all these same things (although I suppose Gilded Light is better against Brain Freeze, becacuse they'd have to target themselves) for one mana less and fits in your colors better. The main thing that I like about Gilded Light, though, is that it has cycling, so even if you can't use it, it's not dead in your hand as it enables dredge. On that same note, are there any other thoughts on we could use to abuse the white mana that a portal in the yard would give us?

edgewalker

08-05-2006, 05:42 PM

I like the idea of this deck, I'm testing with a basic build of the deck as we speak. My major question is besides 3-4 pithing needle what else is played SB. I ask this because obvious the normal black/blue/green SB does not apply as it reduces the aggro playstyle of the deck.

I would also like to add that for a turn 1 play and a replacement for brainstorm I took a "note" from thresh and started playing mental note(god I'm so funny) Although it doesn't dig as far as brainstorm it can put a dredge in the yard and use it all with the same card.

Pinder

08-05-2006, 05:54 PM

Mental Note is actually a pretty good idea. Dropping a dredger and dredging it for U sounds pretty solid. Nice find, I'll have to test that.

Here's what I'm running in my sideboard:

4 Pithing Needle
4 Darkblast
4 Ground Seal
3 Putrefy

I'm sure there's better things to run in those slots (like Leyline of the Void, maybe), but I'm too lazy to find them.

adrieng

08-06-2006, 11:34 AM

i havent played a lot ichorid s deck
but i tryed to play a five colour deck my mana base was something like 4 city
4 gemmstone 4 undiscovered paradise + others land and lotus petal with devastating dreams into the deck
because when i played against goblin i didn t manage to win
it helps a lot and is absolutely a card they need to counter against control
if you want to stay blue black you can also play sickening dreams
wich is big cause it can kills all their creature discarding your dredge cards and making loses them life
has anyone tested devastating dreams and sickening dreams?

edgewalker

08-06-2006, 11:42 AM

Toranor

08-06-2006, 01:32 PM

I think draw-dredge isn't the problem here but I've had the same problem of getting enough mana for the troll. Very often the mana is better used for recurring ghouls, spells and so on than for only one big green beater.
Maybe Songs from the Damned could be a useful card for this deck as it solves that mana problem.
What I find hard to balance is the number of accelerators (LED, petal, C Mox, eventually Songs), lands and other cards. Recently I tested the deck with 16 lands and 3 or 4 leds and 3 or 4 petals, cannot remember it but in total it were 7 accelerators. I found 15 lands to be enough but I have to say that I tested a version with Zombie Infestation and Krovikan Horror.
What do you think? How many lands are needed and how many (and which kind of) mana acceleration cards do we need?

edgewalker

08-06-2006, 08:20 PM

Here's the build I've been running, in case the problem lies within my configuration and not with my play.

Lands
4 Underground Sea
4 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Cephalid Coliseum

Men
4 Ashen Ghoul
4 Ichorid
4 GGT
4 Stinky Imp
3 Tog
2 Wonder

Spells
4 Mental Note/Careful Study
4 Tolarian Winds
4 Cabal Therapy
4 LED
4 Lotus Petal
2 Deep Anal

SB
4 Ground Seal
4 Pithing Needle
4 darkblast
3 Ray of revelation

I'm aware my mana base is odd. I plan on dropping the bayous for some U/B land and riftstone portal.

My major issue is space. I would like to run both mental note and careful study. However, there just isn't enough room. I would also like to run Zombie Infestation, but well... no room. I'm sceptical about tog because I rarely use him outside ichorid fodder, though when I do actually play him he's a house. I also feel a need for more black men. Perhaps the addition of 2 golgari thug? Again though, what to cut? The next issue is how and how often to you actually play GGT.

I would appreciate any help with my configuration and using GGT.

Pinder

08-06-2006, 11:36 PM

After playing some of the newer builds I keep seeing the same trend. I think the grave-troll is an amazing creature for his 6 dredge. However, my problem is I don't ever seem to play him. Since I usually start dredging my draw step second turn. It seems like I never have mana to play him unless I do some doudle LED+draw+dredge tricks. So my question is how often do you guys actually play the grave troll since he is a good beater.

That's the very reason I run 1 Life from the Loam maindeck. By the time you'd want to play the Troll (if for some reason you can't win with Ghoul/Ichorid), it's probably in your yard. I typically have 2 mana left over when I start dredging (usually after a second turn Tolarian Winds), and a Portal in the yard. Dredging it up fetches you three more lands, which is just enough to play him. It takes a few more turns, but if you can't win with Ghoul/Ichorid, odds are you'll be waiting around anyway. It also helps you recur Coliseums late game, which can help you dredge into a win.

I've also been thinking of running Darkblast as a 1-of maindeck (I usually run them in the SB) just in case I run into a sharpshooter or some other problem creature. And at worst it's always another Dredge card. Based on that idea, a new list might look something like this:

//Land
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
2 Rifstone Portal
3 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Swamp
1 Island

//Engine
4 Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Tolarian Winds
3 Deep Analysis

//Creatures
4 Ichorid
4 Ashen Ghoul
4 Putrid Imp
4 Psychatog
2 Wonder

//Spells
1 Life from the Loam
1 Darkblast
1 Ray of Revelation
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Brainstorm/Mental Note

Or something like that. How are LEDs working for people? I feel like I should run them but I can't seem to find what to cut.

edgewalker

08-07-2006, 10:54 AM

LEDs good, they allow for some cool graveyard tricks like double Deep Anal. I also like them because they allow me to actually play the Troll. Mental Note>Sac LED in Rsp>Dredge>Play Troll. I like this deck alot, it seems unstoppable if I don't see any graveyard hate. Even if I do I can still handle it with my SB. The one card I fear out of anything is Planar Void/Leyline it's the fuckin bane of my existance.

Pinder

08-07-2006, 08:00 PM

Leyline and Planar Void are definitely problems, but with Portals and 1 Ray of Revelation maindeck helps a bit, because the white allows you to hardcast it. The only problem becomes getting into your hand, because you can't get it into your yard. Things get a little better when you bring in more from the board. The sideboard might look something like this:

4 Ground Seal
4 Pithing Needle
3 Darkblast
3 Ray of Revelation
1 Life from the Loam (or some other random 1 of)

EDIT: I'm an idiot. With a Leyline or Planar Void out, Riftstone's never gonna hit the graveyard. Any other ideas for a reliable way to get white?

edgewalker

08-07-2006, 08:42 PM

Pinder

08-07-2006, 09:29 PM

I run lotus petal and thats about it. I could play a random scrubland if I need to. I'm curious about your build how has running zero acceleration been working is it just more consistant?

I also have a question about the interation with ground seal. Does it allow you to use ichorid's ability removing another black creature?

I'm not really sure if it's more consistent. It's not as explosive, that's for sure, and it rarely fizzles, but it is sort of slow, which isn't something I'm sure I like in a deck that's supposed to be this aggressive. If it hits a T2 Tolarian Winds, it can win as early as 4th turn, but outside of that it's more like turn 5 or 6. That's why I'm trying to find room for either LED or Lotus Petal., but I can't find what to cut. Maybe I should take out all of the 1-ofs (LftL, Darkblast, and Ray of Revelation) for 3 LEDs...

And the wording of Ichorid is as follows:

At the beginning of your upkeep, if Ichorid is in your graveyard, you may remove a black creature card in your graveyard other than Ichorid from the game. If you do, return Ichorid to play.

It doesn't say 'target' anywhere in the text box, so we're safe.

edgewalker

08-07-2006, 11:15 PM

How do we handle artifacts. Specifically shackles and needle. I've played several decks that use these both against me and both of which are present in control decks. I like ray of revelation because it can be casted when it's dredged, but it does jack against artifacts. Do we have any answers? Since needle naming ghoul, shackles and counter magic smells like gg

Edit: I don't really use LED's to much except for discarding, casting deep anal, or playing troll. I do however love lotus petal. It lets me conistantly power out turn 1-2 tolarian winds or other spells of that nature.
I personally think that this is one of the better aggro decks since it really doesn't play spells. unfortunately thresh brings with it a myriad of yard hate

Moby Dick

08-07-2006, 11:21 PM

How do we handle artifacts. Specifically shackles and needle. I've played several decks that use these both against me and both of which are present in control decks. I like ray of revelation because it can be casted when it's dredged, but it does jack against artifacts. Do we have any answers? Since needle naming ghoul, shackles and counter magic smells like gg
heh, sounds familiar. you could rund oxidize, and hope to draw it, act proactively with duress and therapy, pithing needle helps against deed and shackles. an opposing needle naming ghoule shouldnt hurt if you have enough win conditions. what about that flash back card that bounces stuff.

edgewalker

08-08-2006, 06:25 AM

Pinder

08-08-2006, 01:52 PM

Howevever, my concern is when they have counter MD so actually casting spells won't work.

That's not really a problem. Blue control is this deck's strongest matchup (which is sad, because it's nowhere in the meta right now). You don't ever actually play your win condition, and most of the rest of your spells have dredge, so if they get countered, they come back. Even if they keep countering your Grave-Troll, eventually they'll run out of counterspells (and as long as they're wasting their counterspells on stuff that comes back, your other spells can resolve!). The only thing you need to worry about is proactively Therapying in order to make sure your Tolarian Winds resolves. After that, counters don't do much of anything to you.

As for artifacts, the only card with flashback that's remotely in our colors and deals with artifacts is Ray of Distortion. And with the hefty 4WW flashback, I think we should look elsewhere. Oxidize is probably our best bet, although Putrefy might also be an option. The only problem with both is that you'd actually have to draw them, not dredge them.

Moby Dick

08-08-2006, 02:38 PM

@Moby:our game wasn't to bad your mistake was siding out counter since I just had to drop some golgari grave trolls for 8+ power. Howevever, my concern is when they have counter MD so actually casting spells won't work.
By the time you would cast troll I would be A) have gone leathal with tog B) taken control of the board with recurring deed/shackles with enouth islands/recurring chump blockers C)put you in a waste lock. etc.

What you could try is playing either sex monkey/viridian shaman with genesis or golgari thug. That works.

EDIT: oh, and by the way edgewalker, I was going to drop haunting echoes next turn. before you stopped playing.

Pinder

08-08-2006, 04:38 PM

EDIT: oh, and by the way edgewalker, I was going to drop haunting echoes next turn. before you stopped playing.

Haunting Echoes. That's the card this deck really fears. Crypt is hard to come back from, but it's possible. Echoes pretty much removes your library from the game *shudder*.

As for the whole Zealot/Genesis thing, I've been thinking of running 1 MD Genesis to recur Psychatog and the other non-dredge creatures, but I'm not really sure the deck wants to wait around until it has enough mana to use Genesis effectlively.

Moby Dick

08-08-2006, 05:43 PM

Haunting Echoes. That's the card this deck really fears. Crypt is hard to come back from, but it's possible. Echoes pretty much removes your library from the game *shudder*.

As for the whole Zealot/Genesis thing, I've been thinking of running 1 MD Genesis to recur Psychatog and the other non-dredge creatures, but I'm not really sure the deck wants to wait around until it has enough mana to use Genesis effectlively.
you'll almost always have a gensis in the yard by turn 3 (given that you play 2 or 3 and you dredge a bunch of troll and imps) thats turn 4 cast sex monkey. If you dont want to eun lots of genesises then use golgari thug, ichorid fuel and recurs tog and monkey

Pinder

08-08-2006, 08:11 PM

you'll almost always have a gensis in the yard by turn 3 (given that you play 2 or 3 and you dredge a bunch of troll and imps) thats turn 4 cast sex monkey.

Um....if by 'sex monkey' you mean Uktabi Orangutan (which you should, because that's what a sex monkey is), then you won't be able to drop one on turn 4. Genesis costs 2G to recur a creature, so unless Orangutan is really a super awesome 1 mana 2/2 with no drawback that kills an artifact when it hits the table (which it's not), you'll need 6 mana total to recur and play him in the same turn. Since you shouldn't have more than 3 lands out when you start dredging most times, this will push you back to at least turn 5 (assuming you got genesis and the monkey into the yard by turn 3).

The main thing I'm not liking about Genesis is that if, I have a good opening hand (read: there's a tolarian winds in it) I'm usually dredging when I only have 2 lands in play, which makes Genesis pretty useless until you draw another land. Golgari Thug might warrant a closer look at, but we'd have to find a reliable way to play and kill him (therapy anyone?), and he puts the creature on the top, not in your hand. This means that if you're dredging (which you should be), that it will end up in the yard again anyway.

I think our best bet against a number of our problem cards (except Crypt, but what can you do?) is to tune the deck enough for consistent T3/4 wins. Even if they have a Wretch out, they won't have a ton of mana to use it by then (especially if they're playing other cards), and Echoes costs 5, so it's a whole turn too slow. Crypt is still a problem, but we have needles in the board, right?

Zilla

08-08-2006, 08:15 PM

I think our best bet against a number of our problem cards (except Crypt, but what can you do?) is to tune the deck enough for consistent T3/4 wins. Even if they have a Wretch out, they won't have a ton of mana to use it by then (especially if they're playing other cards), and Echoes costs 5, so it's a whole turn too slow. Crypt is still a problem, but we have needles in the board, right?
I concur with this standpoint. The best way to beat most hate with this deck is to win before it matters. For the few options that hit play before you can (Crypt, Leyline of the Void), you have Pithing Needle, and if you're smart, Echoing Truth in the board.

Pinder

08-08-2006, 09:10 PM

and if you're smart, Echoing Truth in the board.

Wow. I hadn't thought of that. Zilla, you're my hero.

edgewalker

08-09-2006, 12:34 AM

Honostly, I think zilla is correct. I really hate to admit it, but the decks only weakness is graveyard hate. However, it's the most crippling thing anyone can do to the deck, it's pretty much gg. As to racing the hate, my configuration has enough speed I've seen to dredge 20-30 cards by turn 3 more if I'm lucky. Some of the plays might be more risky and erratic but I might just be getting lucky. I think 4 lotus and 4 LED is the perfect amount of acceleration. LED's are a major boon since they allow me to cast DA and re dredge alot. I'm also running Putrid Imp instead of tog. Tog just wins, but I think as a discard outlet the imp is far better.

Pinder

08-09-2006, 02:20 AM

Tog just wins, but I think as a discard outlet the imp is far better.

I think you're right there. In order to pull off wins as fast as we'd like, we really need to cut down to the core stuff. If it's not part of the engine or the win, it needs to go to make room for stuff that speeds up the engine and the win. A basic shell would look something like this:

//Lands
13 Lands
3 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Riftstone Portal

//Creatures
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Ashen Ghoul
2 Wonder

//Spells
4 Tolarian Winds
4 Deep Analysis

That right there is 44 cards, leaving us with 16 slots to fill (realistically this is about zero slots if Putrid Imp/LED/Petal/Therapy all make the cut as well, but I didn't include them as they aren't part of the core).

The only thing that worries me is that cutting Psychatog leaves us with only 1 reliable discard outlet (LED works, but isn't repeatable). It also leaves us with less Ichorid fodder, too. Then we would only have Putrid Imp and Stinkweed Imp and (gasp) other Ichorids or Ghouls to remove for them. Of course, if we make the deck fast enough, maybe that's all we need.

Zilla

08-09-2006, 03:13 AM

As far as I'm concerned, 4x Cabal Therapy is an absolute requirement in Friggorid.

edgewalker

08-09-2006, 11:34 AM

I agree with Zilla. I tried running without them and I missed them to much. They are our only form of disruption. Plus using them doesn't hurt since ichorid dies EOT anyways.

I was also thinking what about using flux in addition to tolarian winds. It's a turn slower so maybe a 2 of? It's another wind effect that allows for selective brokeness

@Pinder: If the deck is fast enough and consistant, we will only need to activate ichorids maybe once or twice. The debate over not having enough fodder isn't an issue since even if you play tog you still have the same amount. Since you're replacing 3-4 U/B with 3-4 B.

EDIT: Consistant turn 2/3 play

[Edgewalker] It is now turn 3 (Edgewalker)
[Edgewalker] It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
[Edgewalker] It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
[Edgewalker] It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker draws a card
[Edgewalker] It is now the Precombat Main Phase
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker plays Polluted Delta from Hand
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker taps Polluted Delta
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Polluted Delta to Graveyard from Play
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker's life total is now 18 (-1)
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker is looking its Library...
[Horos] <Horos> ok
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Bayou into play from Library
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker shuffles library
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker stops looking its Library...
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker plays Lion's Eye Diamond from Hand
[Edgewalker] <Edgewalker> Ok?
[Horos] <Horos> ok
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker taps Bayou
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker taps Underground Sea
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker plays Tolarian Winds from Hand
[Edgewalker] <Edgewalker> Ok?
[Horos] <Horos> ok
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Tolarian Winds to Graveyard from Play
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Cabal Therapy to Graveyard from Hand
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Cephalid Coliseum to Graveyard from Hand
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Golgari Grave-Troll to Graveyard from Hand
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Deep Analysis to Graveyard from Hand
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Golgari Grave-Troll into play from Graveyard
[Edgewalker] <Edgewalker> dredge
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Golgari Grave-Troll to Hand from Play
[Horos] <Horos> ok
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Lotus Petal into play from Library
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Island into play from Library
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Stinkweed Imp into play from Library
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Putrid Imp into play from Library
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Golgari Grave-Troll into play from Library
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Swamp into play from Library
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Stinkweed Imp to Graveyard from Play
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Putrid Imp to Graveyard from Play
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Golgari Grave-Troll to Graveyard from Play
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Swamp to Graveyard from Play
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Island to Graveyard from Play
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Lotus Petal to Graveyard from Play
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Golgari Grave-Troll into play from Graveyard
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Golgari Grave-Troll to Hand from Play
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Tolarian Winds into play from Library
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Wonder into play from Library
[Horos] <Horos> ok
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Stinkweed Imp into play from Library
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Putrid Imp into play from Library
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Ashen Ghoul into play from Library
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Stinkweed Imp into play from Library
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Ashen Ghoul to Graveyard from Play
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Stinkweed Imp to Graveyard from Play
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Putrid Imp to Graveyard from Play
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Stinkweed Imp to Graveyard from Play
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Wonder to Graveyard from Play
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Tolarian Winds to Graveyard from Play
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Stinkweed Imp into play from Graveyard
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Stinkweed Imp to Hand from Play
[Horos] <Horos> ok
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Careful Study into play from Library
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Careful Study into play from Library
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Polluted Delta into play from Library
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Cephalid Coliseum into play from Library
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Ashen Ghoul into play from Library
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Ashen Ghoul to Graveyard from Play
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Cephalid Coliseum to Graveyard from Play
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Polluted Delta to Graveyard from Play
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Careful Study to Graveyard from Play
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Careful Study to Graveyard from Play
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Stinkweed Imp into play from Graveyard
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Stinkweed Imp to Hand from Play
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Bayou into play from Library
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Ichorid into play from Library
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Deep Analysis into play from Library
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Tolarian Winds into play from Library
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Careful Study into play from Library
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Ichorid to Graveyard from Play
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Deep Analysis to Graveyard from Play
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Tolarian Winds to Graveyard from Play
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Careful Study to Graveyard from Play
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Bayou to Graveyard from Play
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker taps Lion's Eye Diamond
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Lion's Eye Diamond to Graveyard from Play
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker's life total is now 15 (-3)
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Stinkweed Imp to Graveyard from Hand
[Horos] <Horos> discard
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Stinkweed Imp to Graveyard from Hand
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Golgari Grave-Troll to Graveyard from Hand
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Golgari Grave-Troll to Graveyard from Hand
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Deep Analysis into play from Graveyard
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Deep Analysis to RFG from Play
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Golgari Grave-Troll to Hand from Graveyard
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Careful Study into play from Library
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Ichorid into play from Library
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Lotus Petal into play from Library
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Wonder into play from Library
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Lion's Eye Diamond into play from Library
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Underground Sea into play from Library
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Ichorid to Graveyard from Play
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Wonder to Graveyard from Play
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Careful Study to Graveyard from Play
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Lotus Petal to Graveyard from Play
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Lion's Eye Diamond to Graveyard from Play
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Underground Sea to Graveyard from Play
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Golgari Grave-Troll to Hand from Graveyard
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Polluted Delta into play from Library
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Island into play from Library
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Stinkweed Imp into play from Library
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Ichorid into play from Library
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Deep Analysis into play from Library
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Lion's Eye Diamond into play from Library
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Ichorid to Graveyard from Play
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Stinkweed Imp to Graveyard from Play
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Lion's Eye Diamond to Graveyard from Play
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Deep Analysis to Graveyard from Play
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Island to Graveyard from Play
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker puts Polluted Delta to Graveyard from Play
[Edgewalker] Edgewalker's life total is now 14 (-1)
[Edgewalker] <Edgewalker> End my turn

I'm not claiming my build is the best, but I think the way it's tailored it's a step in the right direction.

Pinder

08-09-2006, 04:45 PM

@Pinder: If the deck is fast enough and consistant, we will only need to activate ichorids maybe once or twice. The debate over not having enough fodder isn't an issue since even if you play tog you still have the same amount. Since you're replacing 3-4 U/B with 3-4 B.

I agree with you there. In the shell I posted above, strictly speaking I took out Psychatog for either LED or Petal (if we're assuming the list also included the stuff I mentioned). I plugged it into MWS and goldfished a few times with this list:

//Land
4 Underground Sea
4 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
3 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Riftstone Portal
1 Island

//Creatures
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Ashen Ghoul
2 Wonder

//Spells
4 Tolarian Winds
4 Deep Analysis
4 Cabal Therapy
4 LED
4 Lotus Petal

The list was explosive, to be sure, but more often than not I found myself (as you can probably guess) without creatures to remove for Ichorid (even the first time). Looking back at the list, this is probably because the only black creatures were the Imps (Putrid and Stinkweed), Ashen Ghoul, and Ichorid. So we need a black creature in place of one of either LED or Petal (I'd vote petal, because LED is also a discard outlet).

Now the question becomes, what black creature is better than Psychatog? I can't find one. According to a gatherer search, there aren't any cheaper black discard outlets that are also creatures (at least not good ones), and all the other cheap black creatures with relevant abilities (threshold, mainly) aren't that fantastic. The only cheaper, black creature card with an ability as relevant would be Golgari Thug. Thug can help chain your dredges to keep you from fizzling, but Psychatog also counts as an alternate win condition.

There is another 3cc black creature with a discard ability though. Vampire Hounds (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=6084). When it's in the yard it fuels Ichorid, and it can speed up your clock while simultaneously pitching your dredgers back into the yard. The only thing is, I'm not sure it would speed it up any more than, say, Psychatog.

Long story short, I'm not sure we can do better than Psychatog.

EDIT: And Edgewalker, could you post the list that you had the above turn with?

edgewalker

08-09-2006, 06:45 PM

If we run any extra black creatures, I suggest golgari thug, since it fills many roles in this deck. Usually when I drop enough cards in the yard I don't need imps and I stick to recurring GGTs and use the imps for ichorid fodder.

Heres my list, which looks alot like yours.

Land
4 Underground Sea
4 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
2 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Island

Men
4 Ichorid
4 Ashen Ghoul
4 Stinky Imp
4 Putrid Imp
4 GGT
2 Wonder

The rest
4 LED
4 Lotus Petal
4 Tolarian Winds
4 Careful Study/Mental Note
3 Deep Anal
3 Cabal Therapy

Nothing really changed from my previous list except tog vs. imp. I'm still playing with the mana base but I like it for now. As you can see our lists are almost identical. I might even change mine more like yours. However, I don't think I'd run more than 3 DA's since they can end up losing you matches you should win.

Pinder

08-09-2006, 09:35 PM

How has 16 land worked out for you? I know we only need about 2-3 in play to go off, but we really need to hit those first few land drops. If you can do it consistently with 16, then it does free up more room, though :).

I'm still wondering about the exclusion of Psychatog (or at least another black creature) though. When I was testing the list I posted before, there were a lot of times where I didn't have all the creatures I needed to feed my Ichorids the first time (usually this was when I dropped four Ichorids into the yard, but only had about 2 creatures to remove to them). Am I just unlucky?

LEDs are here to stay, though. I've pulled some crazy stuff with those things. On that note, I also took out Tolarian Winds for Brainstorm. I know you're all looking at me crazy now, but it actually works. I usually end up playing 2-3 cards on my first turn (this should happen even more often with you because you run petals, and I don't), so a first (or even second) turn winds really only draws you an average of about 3 cards anyway. And you can generate pretty much the same effect for a full mana cheaper with brainstorm + LED in resp. That combo also leaves you with mana, should you happen upon a Deep Anal (this is why I run 4, I want to make this happen as often as possible). The extra mana can suck though, because it's hard to find a use for it. Your list runs both, though (well, mental note/careful study, but same thing really), so it might be better to leave it in and cut something else (but I still think Psychatog deserves a home in this deck).

edgewalker

08-09-2006, 11:05 PM

I think if since we already have a decent early discard outlet, tog becomes a win more card. He wins you games, but he's not necassary. If we add any black creatures I feel golgari thug should be looked at. He's the next best dredge and his ability can bring back putrid imps or can stack your deck's to help out ashen ghouls.

EDIT: The lands, I almost forgot. Since I only need 1 or 2 about 90% of the time I have one in my hand from the start. Petal helps alot to because it allows me to do broken things turn 1-2 more often.

Pinder

08-10-2006, 01:45 AM

You raise a good point. I'll start testing the Thugs in the Psychatog slot, and let you know. I still think we could use some more discard outlets though (but maybe Imp/LED is all we need).

EDIT: Trying to avoid a double post.

So, Thugs work really well in the Psychatog slot. They dredge, sac to therapies to recur Imps for discard or to throw men on top of Ghouls, and they're cheap enough to play as a chump blocker (that leads to more chump blockers).

But you know what else is really good in the Psychatog slot? Psychatog. I'm currently drumming up a list to run both (and the Imps, Trolls, and Ichorid/Ghoul). It's a tight squeeze, and I might just be crazy, but we'll see.

Pinder

08-13-2006, 05:41 PM

So, editing doesn't bump threads. And since no one else is posting, I'm afraid I have to double post (sorry mods).

So, here's the list I'm currently tweaking after testing some more:

//Land
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Cephalid Coliseum

//Creature
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Ashen Ghoul
4 Putrid Imp
3 Psychatog
3 Golgari Thug
2 Wonder

//Spells
4 Chrome Mox
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Tolarian Winds
4 Deep Analysis

Card Choices:

The Regular Stuff: No need to explain here.

Golgari Thug: Having 3 more dredge creatures actually helps this deck keep from fizzling a lot. Plus, at 2cc, you can actually play it once in a while. The fact that it recurs creatures is nice, but doesn't really come up all that often.

Tropical Island: More islands for Wonder. Nuff said.

Chrome Mox: What?? No LEDs? Although LED is indeed more explosive, most of the time to me it seemed fairly situational (needs Deep Anal, etc. to be useful). Mox also allows you to have three black mana when you start going off, for the occasional third turn win via 4 Ichorid+3 Ghouls. Chrome Mox is solid all around, and leads to second turn...

Psychatog! Yes, he's back, and I don't know why we ever left him. We didn't need a cheaper discard outlet, we just needed to get him out faster :laugh:. The main problem with Putrid Imp is that he doesn't get any bigger when you discard. Psychatog gets huge. And wins games.

Tolarian Winds: Even if a first turn Winds isn't for much, it's generally still enough to go crazy, especially with more dredge in the deck. I'm still deciding between this and brainstorm, though.

Another card I've been considering is Wild Mongrel. He's not black (and he's not Psychatog), but he is a second turn discard outlet that gets huge. Even if we can only remove for Ichorids once because of this guy, he can probably make up for the lack of damage all by his lonesome. And he's super hard to kill, which means you'll have a discard outlet for a while.

More testing to ensue.

Goblin Snowman

08-16-2006, 11:40 AM

Has anyone tried Akuta, Born of Ash? If you're playing lftl, then you hsould have more cards in hand and his "drawback" is negated. Also, doesn't suck against Mogg Fanatic.

Togit460

08-16-2006, 03:46 PM

Alright, after playing this deck at 2 consecutive tourney's with an even result of 2-1, followed by 1-2 against more hate. Ichorids main problem is aggro matchups, it was designed to do well against control and combo because of it's uncounterable engine, and great disruption. The problem against aggro can be solved by the addition of a rather unnoticed card. Sickening Dreams! this card is sick as an uncounterable discard outlet against control, helping against goblins, threshold, and Angel Stompy, etc... I really would maindeck them x4 over any tolarian winds, which are suboptimal in the deck. Also brainstorm is definetly a hot card since it allows you to dredge up to 1/3 of your deck, as well as setting up and fixing a hand. I'd run with the following list so far

x4 putrid imp
x4 ichorid
x4 ashen ghoul
x4 stinkweed imp
x4 golgari grave troll
x1 darkblast
x4 sickening dreams
x4 lotus petal
x2 wonder
x4 deep analysis
x4 cabal therapy
x4 zombie infestation
x4 brainstorm
x4 Underground sea
x4 polluted delta
x4 C. coliseum
x2 swamp
x2 island
Sb:
x3 riftstone portal
x4 LFTL
x1 bayou
x3 moment's peace
x3 tormod's crypt
x1 treetop village

This deck is very slick, and has many ways to deal with aggro. The SB is mainly for help vs. aggro, and help vs. grave hate. LFTL combo's with the R. portal/bayou/treetop village to let you generate 1.5 zombie's a turn with a possibity of winning via treetop village in the event that all other win conditions are taken out. helps with the stax style matchup. Thoughts?

edgewalker

08-16-2006, 04:17 PM

Sickening Dreams! this card is sick as an uncounterable discard outlet against control, helping against goblins, threshold, and Angel Stompy, etc... I really would maindeck them x4 over any tolarian winds, which are suboptimal in the deck.

Tolarian winds is one of the best cards in the deck. Being able to drop 3-4 dredge cards and dredge up 15-20 cards turn 1-2 is probably the best plays this deck can do. Why would you run sickening dreams + brainstorm to do what tolarian winds does by itself. Sure dreams can kill creatures, but why kill them when you can dredge a wonder and fly over them.

Togit460

08-16-2006, 04:28 PM

tolarian winds makes good draws better, it doesn't fix bad draws, and does nothing to stop aggro. Which does in fact kill you faster. look at goblins for example, they usually run eithre lightning bolt or STP which remove any creature you play, keeping you from putting them on a quicker clock. S. Dreams jumpstarts your engine while killing theirs, it's a total swing in game state against aggro. Brainstorm can act as tolarian winds in certain situtations, but is mainly their because it lets you set up your deck to dredge a certain way, as well as fixing your suboptimal draws which happens more often than people like to admit. Stability is a something this deck doesn't have enough of in my opinion, you can replace brainstorm with tolarian winds or careful study if you think it deserves it. But S. dreams is a card i wouldn't ever want to cut, it's let me win too many games against aggro. also don't forget that wonder isn't as great as you may want it to be vs. goblins/stax due to wastelands keeping your non-basic islands from staying around long enough to get hits in via flying ichorids.

Pinder

08-16-2006, 04:32 PM

Tolarian winds is one of the best cards in the deck. Being able to drop 3-4 dredge cards and dredge up 15-20 cards turn 1-2 is probably the best plays this deck can do. Why would you run sickening dreams + brainstorm to do what tolarian winds does by itself. Sure dreams can kill creatures, but why kill them when you can dredge a wonder and fly over them.

QFT.

Tolarian Winds isn't going anywhere. I tried cutting it once, it just didn't work.

As for Sickening Dreams, the fact that it's an uncounterable discard outlet is really gravy. It's main use would be against Goblins, as it's pretty much a black Pyroclasm (or Flamebreak, or Wildfire) that speeds up your dredging. On that note, I think that it would be best as a sideboard card.

And no, we're never siding out Tolarian Winds for it, either. Ever. :P

EDIT: Also, I was over at the UbaStax thread (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=84496) and saw the interaction between Uba Mask and Sylvan Library. Since Dredge is also a replacement effect, I figure it might have a place in this deck somewhere. I have no idea where, and it would probably slow the deck down some, but I figured I'd throw it out there.

EDIT SOME MORE: I forgot to mention that Sickening Dreams does deal damage to your opponent. It could help you nudge in those last few points of damage. It doesn't replace Tolarian Winds, but maybe I was too rash in saying it was SB only. It might have a place in the MD.

Togit460

08-16-2006, 05:02 PM

i wasn't suggesting that sickening dreams replace tolarian winds, that brainstorm>tolarian winds, but apparently everyone prefers explosive draws and turns. I'll put it back in and see if it changes anything. sickening dreams replaces other cards that people put in optional slots such as tog, g.thug and other suboptimal creatures. I think that this card definetly gets the nod over those since it's an early game beast, and can finish for you late game. Fair enough? I'll stop questioning tolarion winds usefulness. How about the sideboard though, what changes would you make their?

edgewalker

08-17-2006, 12:19 PM

Tog is you notice I play 4x careful study in the deck. If anything should be replaced by brainstorm, I think careful study would be you're best bet. I also feel you're missing the point of tolarian winds. It's not used as a draw. In fact often times I never draw cards off of it. being able to dredge 25-30 cards on turn 2 is the reason we play it. Like I said before Sickening Dreams + Brainstorm = Tolarian winds. This card is the engine behind the deck. I also agree that sickening dreams could be played SB or maybe MB is there is room.

Togit460

08-17-2006, 01:35 PM

Land
4 Underground Sea
4 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
2 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Island

Men
4 Ichorid
4 Ashen Ghoul
4 Stinky Imp
4 Putrid Imp
4 GGT
2 Wonder

The rest
4 LED
4 Lotus Petal
4 Tolarian Winds
4 Careful Study/Mental Note
3 Deep Anal
3 Cabal Therapy

Alrighty then, out of yourl ist i'd definetly take out careful study/mental note and put in sickening dreams. Now you'll see what i was going for. I'd also say take out LED, since once you pop it you can't use the mana except for Deep Anal, and it'd be better used as #4 cabal therapy + 3 zombie infestation/3 creatures. Also, what board would you use for this deck?

Pinder

08-17-2006, 01:56 PM

The board is kind of sketchy at the moment, but some ideas include:

Pithing Needle
Ray of Revelation
Ground Seal
Darkblast
Sickening Dreams
Leyline of the Void

I'm sure there are some other cards, too, but I can't think of them at the moment.

edgewalker

08-17-2006, 02:10 PM

I run like
4 Ground Seal
4 Pithing Needle
4 Echoing truth
3 Lftl

I'll try dropping LED, but being able to cast DAs quickly and going off quickly is why I like them. Like zilla said, the best way to go with this deck is speed. In the immortal words of Ricky Bobby, "I wanna go fast." Racing the hate is my goal with this deck. the fundamental turn for Legacy is said to be turn 4, lets try to win turn 3

Pinder

08-17-2006, 08:39 PM

Since I've dropped LED, I've never looked back. Sure, it's explosive, but there are way too many times when I don't have a Deep Anal or some other way to use up the mana. Chrome Mox (or maybe even Mox Diamond if you feel like running LftL) isn't as explosive, but is generally useful in just about any situation. In my mind, this time consistency wins out over speed in this case.

I still can't get Sickening Dreams out of my mind though. Not so much because it's another discard outlet (and a pretty decent one at that), but just because it's board sweep (not to mention damage to the dome). Against most of the tier 1 decks (solidarity excluded), it's pretty much a WoG. It's an incredible game swing against goblins, and I can't remember how many times I've been beaten to death by Thresh's untargetable 3/3 mongeese, which this takes out too. It even kills Troll (sometimes) if you do it right (maybe). The only thing against it is that it's pretty horrible to rip off the top late game, when most often you have just about zero cards in hand (at least, if you're playing the deck right), and it doesn't do much against things that aren't dedicated aggro (which we have a strong matchup against already anyway). And it hurts you. But with the format ruled by Aggro and blue control largely nonexistant, I think it more than deserves a spot in the board, at least.

Togit460

08-17-2006, 10:06 PM

late game you're either dredging or if you've dredged a most of your deck you are simply drawing which eventually makes this card very good. And having this card in multiples isn't ever an issue. LED is too situational in this deck right now to be good. But maybe with more flashback style stuff it'd be better. I'm personally enjoying Zombie Infest. It's working nicely so far. Chrome mox's single most useful point is early game which is why it might get the part over lotus petal which only goes once in the early game. chrome mox is essentially better, but it hurts tolarian winds/getting rid of needed cards. I'm not sure i like it more than the lotus petal. the fundamental turn is actually 3.5, although if stax makes a comeback it might change a bit. how does this deck do vs. stax?

edgewalker

08-17-2006, 10:47 PM

Well, I've dropped LED from my build. I hated doing it and I felt dirty. I'm still nto sold on it but I am goldfishing and testing my build without LED. My next obstacle is what should I run in it's place. I was thinking maybe:
3-4 ZI
4 Brainstorm
1-2 Golgari Thug
1-2 Mr. teeth
1-2 LftL
2 Sickening Dreams
2 Flux
As you can see I'm having a bit of trouble making a choice. I also have to agree that lotus petal leaves something to be desired but I don't think either moxes are worth it since they rob you of early resources. As you know, this deck is all about the early game.

EDIT: No idea about stax. I kinda like it since we don't play spells and outside ghouls we don't really play/need permenants. The only dangerous card(s) I see is Ensnaring Bridge and maybe 3sphere and CotV

Togit460

08-18-2006, 03:04 PM

i'd say that x4 sickening dreams should be mainboarded in the current environment. it's not expected by a lot of decks and has 3 different uses. i'm going with chrome mox over lotus petal right now, due to the petal's only 1 useability. I've always wanted access to 2-3 mana a turn, and that's it. I figure i'd just dredge them late game, so i don't have to worry about drawing them. This deck seems to have most of the main-board figured out, if i can get my hands on sickening dreams i'll run this at the local tourney tomorrow, I need a better sideboard. A lot of decks up there run a lot of grave hate, such as maindeck W. Wretches and T. crypts. Makes it scary to play against, but i feel this deck could fight the hate with the proper sideboard. just need some help is all. -peace, j.j.

Goblin Snowman

08-18-2006, 03:25 PM

how does this deck do vs. stax?

Stax near auto loses. You don't need to have anything in play, screwing our options of killing your board. I had a game with Turn one 3sphere, and he just didn't drop land, discarded Stinky and went on his merry way. If you have Ray of Revelation to screw with Humility/Moat (or Wonder) /Ghostly Prison we really can't do much.

edgewalker

08-18-2006, 04:41 PM

I finally broke down completely and made the suggested changes. Basicly it's my old list except I run
-4 LED
-4 Study
-4 Lotus Petal

+4 Chrome Mox
+4 Sickening Dreams
+4 Brainstorm

My Manabase looks like this now
4 Underground Sea
4 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
2-4 Cephalid Coliseum
0-2 Bloodstained Mire

I say non-basic hate be damned. What do you think about?

Also is 4 dreams to many or what? Could I cut one for a thug?

Togit460

08-18-2006, 05:39 PM

i'm not sure about all 4 dreams being necesary, i'd probably want at least 3 mb though.

edgewalker

08-18-2006, 07:06 PM

yea, thats what I changed to, I run 3 dreams 1 Thug.

Zilla

08-18-2006, 08:13 PM

I don't know if I agree. Dreams is definitely an awesome SB option, but I'm not sold on them maindecked. Jack and I run them maindecked in ZaT!, but that deck is a bit mroe controlling and less agressive than this deck. I honestly think the way you want to go with Friggorid's maindeck is pure aggro, with only 4x Therapy as disruption. With this approach, you can actually race combo, which is becoming more and more relevant. The more you take the deck towards a control route, the less effective it's going to be in general, I think.

Pinder

08-18-2006, 08:14 PM

Stax near auto loses. You don't need to have anything in play, screwing our options of killing your board. I had a game with Turn one 3sphere, and he just didn't drop land, discarded Stinky and went on his merry way. If you have Ray of Revelation to screw with Humility/Moat (or Wonder) /Ghostly Prison we really can't do much.

He's right. I've played against Stax a few times, and really all you need to do is survive to second turn. T1 Trinisphere is hard, but if they don't get that, once you have a decent sized graveyard you pull out the ghouls with the land in response to the Stax trigger, sac said lands, and start removing any useless Ghouls to Ichorid. Then you go to town. Game 2 (after siding in Rays) is even better. This deck has always had it's strongest matchup against control.

And I've finally conceded that, yes, Sickening Dreams deserves its rightful place in the maindeck to shore up our match with Aggro. I agree that 3 seems like the best number. Throwing them in would go something like this:

-2 Golgari Thug
-1 Psychatog
+3 Sickening Dreams

Of course, if after testing it seems that I still need more dredge, I might finally break down and take out Psychatog completely for Sickening Dreams.

EDIT: @Zilla: The only relevant combo deck I can see is Solidarity, which (because we dump our library into our graveyard for them) is already not that great for us. At any rate my meta is clogged with Goblins and random Aggro, so I'm going to keep SD in for now. I suppose that, like everything, it comes down to your meta.

edgewalker

08-18-2006, 10:41 PM

@ Zilla: You've looked at the recent lists Pinder Tog and I have posted I hope. If this aggro route is infact where we need to go, what do you think if any should our modifactions be?

Togit460

08-19-2006, 04:35 AM

from what i understand this, deck loves playing against solidarity, hates playing iggy-pop. Sickening dreams is definetly just a meta card, but it has places vs. 2/3 of all decks. against control it's a quick uncounterable discard engine, vs. aggro, it's game-swinger. combo is where it's almost dead and even their it's still relevant for it's discard + extra damage. I'm really more worried about the sideboard right now. Stax might as well be a bye since they can't stop your engine, they can't deal with your threats, and they can't kill you quickly enough to win. Goblins/deadguy used to be an issue for this deck, but i don't think they will be anymore. I'm more worried about ichorids ways of dealing with leyline of the void. is a different playstyle required. such as hardcasting threats?

Bane of the Living

08-19-2006, 12:59 PM

Is anyone here playing Breakthrough? Is it too much card disadvantage? It seemed like a better card than LED. Especially if playing with Chrome Mox.

Where is Akuta? He's a m a z i n g. I played him as an alternative win condition in Dredgatog. Play him as a one or 2 of, seriously. In all those games where you needed to hit one more Ichorid to win, there's Akuta for you. He's also black, so he can be rfg for Ichorid food as well.

Pinder

08-19-2006, 02:55 PM

Where is Akuta? He's a m a z i n g. I played him as an alternative win condition in Dredgatog. Play him as a one or 2 of, seriously. In all those games where you needed to hit one more Ichorid to win, there's Akuta for you. He's also black, so he can be rfg for Ichorid food as well.

I'm not so sure. I tried running Akuta earlier, and the problem I kept running into was this: You have 2 lands and no hand for the majority of the game. You don't want to sac your lands, and 9 times out of 10 you have less cards in hand than your opponent and can't use him anyway. Sure, he's Ichorid fodder, but if that's his only redeeming quality, Golgari Thug (or even our good friend Psychatog) fits the slot better.

EDIT - @Tog: The best way to play against Leyline of the Void is to scoop and get on with the next game :laugh:. While that isn't strictly true (I mean, you can always just hardcast everything like you said), a Leyline in play before the game starts pretty much gets rid of everything we could ever hope to use to destroy it or keep it off the table. I'm just hoping that not too many people will start sideboarding it.

Togit460

08-19-2006, 11:27 PM

Akuta's a little too situational for my taste, and while the thug isn't great it'll do for now i guess, i'd also suggest darkblast x1 in the main, but sickening dreams already takes that need away probably. I definetly need a sideboard though.

meb

08-20-2006, 05:16 AM

hello

i was just wondering what happend to the idea of breakthrough? it seems to be a strong card for the deck.. draws you more cards than brainstorm (hence more dredging) works 2nd turn as opposed to flux....

Pinder

08-20-2006, 09:37 PM

The thing I really don't like about Breakthrough is that it draws, then discards. Because Tolarian Winds puts the dredge creatures in the yard before you draw, it's more useful in the deck. I suppose Breakthrough could concievably replace brainstorm, but I don't run those anyway.

As to a sideboard, I think it would look something like this:

4 Pithing Needle (It just owns stuff, especially Crypt)
4 Echoing Truth (At the behest of Zilla)
3 Ghastly Demise/Darkblast
3 Ray of Revelation (Hits those pesky Confinements and Worships)
1 LftL (This is mainly to help hardcast Trolls against Rifter late game :laugh:)

If you don't already run Sickening Dreams maindeck, it should definitely find a place in the board as well.

meb

08-21-2006, 01:25 AM

yes of course tolarian winds are much better than breakthrough but i was considering breakthrough as another card to make that 2nd turn broken draw more available. basically im still deciding on whether breakthrough, sickening dreams, or brainstorm/careful study should be that other discard outlet. i like breakthrough since you get to use it to draw(hence dredge) for 4 cards if you managed to discard a dredge card during your first turn, AND you get to discard almost your entire hand as well... not as stronge as winds, but good enough. since all you're going to be doing after the 1st 2 turns is hopefully dredging... and only rarely do you decide to draw if ever you do so... sickening dreams looks interesting, albeit on the more controllish aspect, but i was thinking that breakthrough is more aggressive... now, sickening dreams in place of tog is a good idea, but sometimes its a stretch to find a creature to sac to ichorid, and also, tog is brutal if you get to put him down turn three. basically its either you winds or breakthrough 2nd turn and start winning turn three, or be able to cast tog on turn 3. thats 11-12 cards out of 60 which you really want in your hand in the 9 cards you actually draw for the entire game.

nobody really explained why breakthrough was cut from the first lists on this thread.. tnx

Pinder

08-21-2006, 02:40 PM

I think that the inclusion of Breakthrough is really up to the player. It could theoretically go in place of a number of things. The slot looks something like Breakthrough/Brainstorm/Careful Study/Sickening Dreams/Psychatog right now. I think the Breakthrough is better than Careful study in this case because it draws and discards more, but I'm not sure I'd run it over brainstorm. The library manipulation brainstorm packs is nothing to sneeze at. Right now I'm running the Sickening Dreams maindeck just because in my meta (a small 30-40 man tourney on Fridays) there's about 7 Goblin decks running around. You're pretty much guarunteed to play one if you're 3-0 at the end of the third round.

Barring metagaming, I think that for this slot either Brainstorm or Breakthrough is the strongest card for it.

EDIT: And as for it being cut from the original list, I think that since the deck already had a strong draw/discard spell in the form of Tolarian Winds, Breakthrough was taken out to make room for more utility.

Togit460

08-26-2006, 12:42 PM

sickening dreams is just too beastly to cut from the list in my opinion, i don't want to know what list you're running if you still have psychatog in it. That card is great for the extended version, but completely unneccesary in this format due to their being better cards (ashen ghoul), to play over it. This deck is reaching a pretty strong point right now, all we truly need are results. I'd like to keep tinkering with the sideboard, but my mainboard's completely set unless someone gives me a good enough reason to cut sickening dreams for another card. please, post your results with this deck so I can find out how it's doing. Once i get my hands on more of the old duals that i foolishly traded away earlier, i'll start playing this deck again. peace, -J.J.

Pinder

08-26-2006, 04:52 PM

The only results I have right now is from the 40 man tourney me and my friends run out of NW Washington. Of course, I had only picked up 1 Sickening Dreams by then, and was still running 3x Golgari Thug and 2x Psychatog (in place of the dreams). Now, my meta is filled with the randomest jank you could imagine, so these results aren't going to be typical, but here goes (names in parentheses are people who are registered on the Source):

The list I was playing:

//Land
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Island (eat that, Wasteland!)

//Creatures
4 Ichorid
4 Ashen Ghoul
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid
3 Golgari Thug
2 Psychatog
2 Wonder

//Spells
4 Tolarian Winds
4 Chrome Mox
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Deep Analysis
1 Sickening Dreams (I wish I had more...)

//Sideboard
4 Ground Seal
2 Pithing Needles (I can't seem to find 2 more, or I'd run 4 in the board)
2 Ray of Revelation
3 Ghastly Demise
3 Darkblast
1 Life from the Loam

(NOTE: I know the sideboard is in shambles right now. I'm still trying to iron that out)

Round 1: Black Discard
2-0
Game 1: My opponent keeled over and died to a second turn Psychatog, 3rd turn Winds, turn 4 win. He played a Dauthi Slayer, and that's about all I saw.
-1 Sickening Dreams
-2 Psychatog
+3 Darkblast
Game 2: He brought in the Wretches from his board, but the only one he played met its end at the hands of a double darkblast after removing a single card from my yard. A few turns later he was dead.

Round 2: UWR Scepter Control (durahan)
2-0
Game 1: Drew a nuts hand on the play Let loose a T1 Winds before he could counter it, came swinging with 4 Ichorids T2, after which I therapied a Scepter out of his hand. He killed a few with various burn, etc., but eventually he ran out of burn while I kept swinging. Probably helped that he never hit another scepter.
-1 Sickening Dreams
-1 Golgari Thug
+2 Pithing Needle
Game 2: Both of us mulliganed into our sideboard cards, him opening with a T1 Moratorium Stone and me with a T1 Needle on Scepter. He drops another Stone and Phyrexian Furnace on T2, and proceeds to massacre my graveyard. He didn't have access to scepter, however, so I just hardcasted Stinkweed Imp and Golgari Thug and went to town, chipping away at his life while he drew lots of land.

Round 3: Goblins
0-2
Game 1: After a rather dissapointing T1 Winds, I find myself without a discard outlet. I hardcast Stinky to try and hold off his little red men, but he eats an Incinerator and I go down to 14. Then he Matrons for a Piledriver, and I'm pretty much dead next turn (at this point he has Warchief, Fanatic, and Matron). During my turn I throw out an Ichorid and topdeck a Putrid Imp (finally). I bring myself down to 11, flashing back Deep Anal in the hopes that I can finally land a Therapy in my yard for his Piledriver. Half my library in my graveyard (and enough Ichorids/Ghouls to bring in the win in a couple of turns), but no therapy. :( I lose next turn to a pair of hasty Piledrivers. Almost pulled it out, though.
-1 Golgari Thug
-2 Psychatog
+3 Darkblast
Game 2: I mulligan down to a crappy 6 card hand, and get slighty run over. Darkblasts helped a bit, but not much. I think it was when I therapied a Siege-Gang out of his hand, only to discover that he had a Pyromancer in there (I was at 10 or so, with 1 blocker), that I gave up. Not much to say here. Stupid goblins.

Round 4: UWB Confidant Control
2-0
Game 1: He nearly kills me because I lack a discard outlet (no winds, no imps, nothing). My only outlet is his hyppies beating me in the face. I manage to topdeck a Winds, and win the next turn with 15 damage.
No sideboard.
Game 2: I go off all over his face, using therapies to keep his removal out of his hand. It's over fairly quickly.

So there you have it. I know it looks bad that I beat 3 random decks and lost to the only tier 1 deck I went up against, but I held my own against goblins, and died because of crappy draws (well, Dredges, but yeah).

After playing in this tourney, I've conlcuded that Zilla was right, and SD belongs in the board. Nearly every round (except against Goblins, which I lost to anyway) I ended up boarding it out for more useful stuff. Admittedly, those useful things were other board cards that were pretty narrow, but I think Psychatog deserves this slot, as he is generally more useful against non-Goblin matchups (and he's the best multicolored creature ever printed).

But that might be because I was only running 1 MD Dreams. We'll see when I get some more. I'm just hoping the return of flashback in TS will provide us with something sexy.

Togit460

08-27-2006, 12:29 AM

]So there you have it. I know it looks bad that I beat 3 random decks and lost to the only tier 1 deck I went up against, but I held my own against goblins, and died because of crappy draws (well, Dredges, but yeah).

After playing in this tourney, I've conlcuded that Zilla was right, and SD belongs in the board. Nearly every round (except against Goblins, which I lost to anyway) I ended up boarding it out for more useful stuff. Admittedly, those useful things were other board cards that were pretty narrow, but I think Psychatog deserves this slot, as he is generally more useful against non-Goblin matchups (and he's the best multicolored creature ever printed).

But that might be because I was only running 1 MD Dreams. We'll see when I get some more. I'm just hoping the return of flashback in TS will provide us with something sexy.

Amen to TS bringin good flashback, i still think that having sickening dreams mainboard is the correct choice, remember that vs. non-aggro game 1 it's an uncounterable discard outlet, i'd say that x4 needle in the board is necesary since it keeps most grave-hate from hitting you. also, just because you sideboard the same card out every time except against aggro, doesn't mean it doesn't deserve the slot. Since game 1 vs. aggro is very important. And it'll let you jumpstart game 1 vs. control especially and combo to a lesser extent.

Pinder

08-27-2006, 02:40 AM

Meh, I already run them MD (or at least I would) over Psychatog just because, as I mentioned before, roughly 2/3 of my meta is goblins. I'm just gonna say that both are wonderful discard outlets and incredible sources of damage. So running either is fine, as each has applications against specific decks. Whichever you don't run, however, should end up in the board against other matchups.

Bane of the Living

08-28-2006, 05:12 PM

quicksilver

08-28-2006, 05:24 PM

How does Sharpshooter not tool you?

Is dark blast not great at stopping goblin sharpshooter?

Togit460

08-28-2006, 06:36 PM

This is one of the reasons i originally ran x1-2 Darkblast main, although Zombie Infestation beats goblins if played with correctly. On the other hand though, Sickening Dreams thrashes goblins rather thouroughly, and if you truly need, you can add Needles in the board.

Please take the effort to capitalize words where appropriate. Thanks. - Zilla

Bane of the Living

08-30-2006, 08:10 PM

Has anyone considered Survival of the Fittest in the deck? I recently started playing with it and sometimes wish I had more Discard outlets. ZI is nice but Survival actually fetches for your zombies and wonders. Would it slow the deck down too much? It seems like too powerfull an idea to just dismiss.

Pinder

08-30-2006, 08:20 PM

Survival is certainly a thought, but it dies to Needle and the deck doesn't have a ton of ways to get rid of artifacts. Also, because there's so much dredging going on, if a card doesn't have some useful effect in the yard, it's not quite as good, because it will usually hit the yard before you can play it (which is quite possibly my only beef with Sickening Dreams). Lastly, most of the game you have roughly 0-1 cards in hand (which is why I initially cut ZI, I never had two cards to discard to it).

All in all, due to the way the deck works, the cons outwiegh the pros for Survival, in my opinion.

Now, if one were to slow the deck down a bit and try to fit it into a control shell (Deed, anyone?), that might be a different story....

Bane of the Living

08-30-2006, 08:52 PM

Well Ashen Ghoul is just as effected by needle. But if your opponent wastes their needle on Survival you still have your team of ghouls.

In extended Friggorid doesnt need to face Swords to Plowshares or Tormods Crypt. Here it does. We have Ashen Ghoul to keep ahead of Swords, but this deck can just scoop it up to Crypts. I dont like Needle as the answer to this. Sure its there but I would always rather be proactive than reactive, especially in this deck.

Survival fits the role Sickening Dreams does since its an additional discard outlet. Altho it isnt removal it combats against Graveyard hate. If your opponent Crypts you, survival away some cards, find new zombies, put dredge creatures back in the yard. There are often times where Putrid Imp is shot down by burn or something, It can be difficult to throw the dredge cards back in the yard. Playing them and hoping they'll die is never a good choice.

Think of how good turn one Survival would be in this deck. If I were to test this out I'd be hard pressed not to cut more lands and add Eldamaris Vineyard to the deck. To help get out turn 2 hard cast zombies, free survival plays and activations, some extra damage to the opponent, and last but not least, cast the fearfull Gravetroll. Here is my proposed list..

Mana-20
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Cephalid Colosieum
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Chrome Mox
2 Eldamaris Vineyard

Creatures-24
4 Putrid Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Ashen Ghoul
4 Psychatog
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Gravetroll

Spells-16
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Tolarian Winds
4 Brainstorm
4 Survival of the Fittest

I cut Deep Analysis because the card draw//reach is provided by Survival now. I like tog too much to cut him. The build may need 2 Golgari Thug or so to keep dredging powerfull and consistant. Im not sure. Ill let you guys know how it does.

Togit460

08-30-2006, 08:54 PM

I can't quite visualize Friggorid working well with deed, as 2 lands is hard enough to keep in play as is, i suppose you could roll with LTFL and riftstone portal, at which point survival seems rather pointless when you could just play Recurring nightmare, and possibly other reanimation targets. So i guess the question to ask, is, is the dredge engine going to make reanimator more viable. I just think that playing friggorid control style is making this deck more and more like truffle shuffle/rock/control styles of those colors.

Bane of the Living

09-29-2006, 05:34 PM

New Friggorid cards!!!

Ancient Grudge
Card type: Instant
Casting cost: 1R
Card text: Destroy target artifact.
Flashback G

Dread Return
Card type: Sorcery
Casting cost: 2BB
Card text: Return target creature card from your graveyard to play.
Flashback—Sacrifice three creatures. (You may play this card from your graveyard for its flashback cost. Then remove it from the game.)

Are either playable? One smashes Pithing Needle. The other is a reason to play Sutered Ghoul!

Pinder

09-29-2006, 06:27 PM

Yay! Someone necro'd my pet deck.

And I must say, those cards are downright sexy. I've always wished ray of revelation could hit artifacts. Pithing Needle in particular. I was excited when I saw Ancient Grudge. Now, as far as running Dread Return goes, it's really good. Not for Sutured Ghoul, but for Golgari freaking Grave-Troll. You have to sac 3 creatures (read: Ichorids) to play Dread Return, so a reanimated Troll will never be less than a 3/3, and probably a lot bigger. I hadn't noticed Dread Return until now, but free flashback reanimation is just too good to pass up. There are some other cards that I've noticed might be good for Friggorid as well, those being Think Twice and Nether Traitor. Now, Think Twice is probably not as good as Deep Anal as far as flashback card draw, but our options are limited, and it doesn't hurt you either. Also, Nether Traitor seems like it might be okay. It has Shadow (read: unblockability) and it can come into play for a measley B every time an Ichorid dies. The fact that it's only a 1/1 kind of sucks, though.

But yeah, Dread Return is the fucking tech. Great find, I think I'm going to start playing around with Friggorid again!

edgewalker

09-29-2006, 11:35 PM

I like the addition of the new cards. I know I'll but grudge in the SB. I don't know what I'll do with the reanimation spell. Is it even worth finding space for it?

Pinder

09-30-2006, 01:37 AM

Um....this deck doesn't really have any problem getting 3 creatures by turn 2 or 3...Imagine swinging for 9 with 3 Ichorids/Ashen Ghouls, then finishing up the turn by plopping down a 7/7 (or even greater) beat stick that regenerates for 1 mana. I think that Dread Return should make it into the main. It speeds up your clock so much it's just crazy.

edgewalker

09-30-2006, 11:21 AM

Ok I see your point, but what would you take out of the already solid deck list?

Pinder

09-30-2006, 12:17 PM

Hrm....I really don't know yet. In order to fit it in, it will probalby require a significant overhaul of the decklist in general, as it will probably alter the deck's strategy just a bit.

And I'm not sure the list was ever really 'solid' in the first place. It was good, but it was still way too susceptable to grave hate for it to be very resilient.

edgewalker

09-30-2006, 12:31 PM

And I'm not sure the list was ever really 'solid' in the first place. It was good, but it was still way too susceptable to grave hate for it to be very resilient.

I don't think that's the specific build's fault but the over all strategy of the deck.

Personally I think the reanimate is a win more card because most often a 7/7+ won't matter with this deck since you can win by the next attack phase anyways. 3 men that's usually 9 damage which puts them at 11. So basicly they're dead next turn if you dredged at all this turn.

Pinder

09-30-2006, 12:54 PM

Well, I can't argue with that. But it definitely warrants a look at. Hell, a few of my friends have been suggesting that I stick in Akroma or some other random reanimator target (but not Sutured Ghoul. Removing creatures from the yard is Ichorid's job). I don't think I'll do that, but reanimating things that are already in the deck (like Grave-Troll, or maybe Stinky Imp for the block) can't be too bad, right?

edgewalker

09-30-2006, 01:48 PM

I'm not saying it's a bad card, it's an awsome card. If I had a free 2-4x slot I wouldn't hesitate to throw it in. However, I don't have room in my list and I don't feel like changing it just for a win more card.

Also the more and more I look at grudge I'm not sure how hot it will be. I'm starting to think what artifacts hurt me and the ones that come to mind are needle and crypt. Grudge>Needle, but crypt< grudge because it is supposed to be used from the yard, which they'll take out alot of you're deck in the process. I'm testing it but I might end up using oxidize instead (along with echoing truth)

Togit460

10-01-2006, 01:53 PM

you only want 1-2 dread return in the deck. My testing so far has shown that multiples are pretty useless. Show me the list everyone is running right now so that I have some comparison besides what i'm running. This thread doesn't yet have a definitive list.

edgewalker

10-01-2006, 02:29 PM

My list hasn't changed a whole lot. The mana base changes most of the time, but I like how it's set now.

Mana
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Island
2 Swamp
3 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Riftstone Portal

Men
4 Ashen Ghoul
4 Ichorid
4 GGT
4 Stinky Imp
4 Putrid Imp
2 Wonder
2 Golgari Thug

Spells
4 Tolarian Winds
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Chrome Mox
4 Deep Analysis
4 Brainstorm

The only cards I see I could possibly drop are 1 mox and maybe 1 Thug, but I like 10 dredgers so much.

Togit460

10-01-2006, 03:33 PM

The difference between are lists are as folllows:
-4 brainstorm
-1 G thug
-1 wonder
+3 zombie infestation
+2 Sickening Dreams
+1 Dread Return (TS card)

I'm not sure about sickening dreams, but I know that zombie infest needs to be in this deck sooo badly. He heavily shores up the aggro matchups and is absolutely amazing. Dread Return will only be used about once a game so it seems appropriate to have it as a one of.

My sideboard is a wreck right now, but I'll worry more about it once the mainboard is decided. Thoughts?

edgewalker

10-01-2006, 06:01 PM

I might try to add return and ZI but I already run Dreams SB. I love that card in the aggro match up. Best Wrath I ever cast.

EDIT: After testing dread returns, I've come to the conclusion that it is in fact the STONE COLD NUTS. A 8/8+ on turn 3 is always nice. I played a game and got the G Troll up to 19/19 on like turn 5

Pinder

10-01-2006, 10:32 PM

//Land
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Island (eat that, Wasteland!)

//Creatures
4 Ichorid
4 Ashen Ghoul
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid
3 Golgari Thug
2 Wonder

//Spells
4 Tolarian Winds
4 Chrome Mox
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Deep Analysis
3 Sickening Dreams

//Sideboard
4 Ground Seal
2 Pithing Needles (I can't seem to find 2 more, or I'd run 4 in the board)
2 Ray of Revelation
3 Ghastly Demise
3 Darkblast
1 Life from the Loam

This is the list I'm still running, for reference.

EDIT: After testing dread returns, I've come to the conclusion that it is in fact the STONE COLD NUTS. A 8/8+ on turn 3 is always nice. I played a game and got the G Troll up to 19/19 on like turn 5

See? See? I knew this card needed breaking.

And what do people think of running Gigapede as a return target? He's uncounterable discard, and a 6/1 untargetable can't ever be that bad...

Togit460

10-01-2006, 11:57 PM

I dislike gigapede because he's slow and rather inneffective for what this deck is trying to accomplish. You are trying to disrupt and win as quickly as possible and Gigapede is more for the long-game sense. How often does this deck hit 5 mana, if you play it correctly it should never get above 3 and usually exactly 2 is what you want. Other than that, I dislike using much if any green in my builds. But if you must i'd run riftstone portal x2-3 and bayou x1. The board is still up in the air for me, but we must come together on a single most effective build. Not just a build for the correct meta, but the most powerful build in any meta.

Pinder

10-02-2006, 01:31 AM

I was speaking more towards Gigapede being a target for Dread Return. But either way, you're probably right about it being too slow.

Eldariel

10-02-2006, 08:01 AM

I was speaking more towards Gigapede being a target for Dread Return. But either way, you're probably right about it being too slow.

Why would you ever want anything other than a Golgari Grave-Troll for that? Grave-Troll takes no room as it's already an imperative engine piece and it's also pretty huge whenever you bring it back, making turn 3-4 kills much more consistent without Tog (which is what made 'em happen in Extended).

Pinder

10-02-2006, 01:48 PM

True. I think that fat Trolls are the way to go. In the list I posted previously, I think I'll try cutting 1 Golgari Thug and a Sickening Dreams for 2 Dread Returns.

edgewalker

10-02-2006, 06:36 PM

I changed my list drastictly to either just swing with the men then reanimate for 20+ damage the next turn or sac them all before my attack and swing for 20/20+ hasted damage. I made alot of room for returns and dragon breath.

Eldariel

10-02-2006, 06:44 PM

What good is Dragon Breath if your highest manacost dude is 5?

edgewalker

10-02-2006, 08:17 PM

It would help if I new the CC of cards I play in my deck wouldn't it. The card is still hotness, but I don't know if it's as hot as it used to be. Fuck you GGT for having a CC of 5.

Pinder

10-03-2006, 12:41 PM

We could always run Platinum Angel as a 1 or 2-of. It's a high enough CC to get haste from Dragon Breath and it makes it so we can't lose. Oh, and it's a 4/4 flying beater, too. Not as huge as a GGT, but definitely more gamebreaking.

Togit460

10-03-2006, 11:20 PM

guys, lets focus on making ichorid the best possible, not a reanimator/dredge deck please. Platinum angel doesn't deserve a slot in this list anyways, it's highly vulnerable, something that ichorid doesn't care about. The great part about ichorid is that their spot removal needs to keep coming or you just run them over. I love using dread returns, but golgari grave troll is truly the reason to run it. It's synergy and that's what this deck is all about.

Pinder

10-04-2006, 02:01 PM

Well said. I concur that Dread Return should only be there to return things that are already in the deck. We don't need to be clogging the maindeck with cards just to make Dread Return better.

Whit3 Ghost

10-08-2006, 11:36 AM

This is the list that I've been working on. Gamble is really, really techy.

Lands/Mana
4 Fetch
4 Badlands
4 Underground Sea
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Chrome Mox

Beatz
4 Ichorid
4 Ashen Ghoul

Dredgez
4 Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp

Discradz/Draw
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Sickening Dreams
4 Putrid Imp
3 ZI/Firestorm
3 Careful Study
2 Deep Analysis

Tutorage
4 Gamble

Ev4sion
2 Wonder

Reanimation
1 Dread Return

Sideboard
Pyrostatic Pillar
Duress
Pithing Needle
Chain of Vapor

Togit460

10-08-2006, 01:52 PM

First things first on this list, I appreciate the amount of innovation that went into splashing red for this deck.
You are missing certain aspects that allow this deck to be more competitive though. For instance you need x4 cabal therapy for disruption in this deck. Secondly, -1 wonder +1 Golgari thug. Also Tolarian Winds is a house in this deck and i'd strongly reccomend it. x4 Chrome mox is also important since having that first turn ZI against goblins is often your best bet towards winning, as well as a first turn tolarion winds to find disruption and creatures. I overall like the concept of gamble, but it's card disadvantage for a card we could just as easily dredge. This is why i stick to 2 colors as well, there just doesn't appear to be enough given to this deck in any other color to justify it. On the other hand though i'm impressed with the cards you found for red. Rest assured if red gets more cards to help ichorid these suggestions could turn out to be very viable.

Whit3 Ghost

10-08-2006, 06:27 PM

Therapies are in my MWS list, I just forgot to put them in there.

Pinder

11-17-2006, 03:03 PM

B: Return this thread from the graveyard to play. Play this ability only if this thread has at least 3 pages above it. :tongue:

For reference, here's the list I split for first with last Friday in a 36 man tourney:

//Land
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Island (this should probably be a swamp, but whatever)
4 Polluted Delta

//Dredge
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug

//Draw
3 Brainstorm
4 Deep Analysis
4 Tolarian Winds

//Dudes
4 Ichorid
4 Ashen Ghoul
4 Putrid Imp

//Tech
3 Sickening Dreams
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
2 Wonder

//Sideboard
4 Ground Seal
2 Ray of Revelation
3 Darkblast
3 Ghastly Demise
3 Ancient Grudge

A brief synopsis of the rounds:

Round 1: Some sort of beats with Flying Men+Mutation, Ornithopter+Grafted Wargear stuff.

G1: Early game Sickening Dreams wipes the board, and allows me to start dredging. A few turns of swinging, followed by a huge Troll, seals the game.
G2: Same general thing. He unsummoned my Troll though *sniff*.

Round 2: Guy with a Standard to Legacy port.
G1: I win.
G2: I win again. It wasn't that hard.

Round 3: 2-Land Belcher
G1: Scares the crap out of me when he goes off, but only hits me for 7 (whew). Doesn't manage to go off again, so I take game 1.
Out: 3 Sickening Dreams In: 3 Ancient Grudge.
G2: He pulls a first turn win for exactly 20 damage. That was fun.
G3: Ancient Grudge > Charbelcher. Then I therapied all of his mana sources out of his hand, and killed his only source on the table (chrome mox imprinting nights whisper). Then I apply the beats.

Round 4: The Rock
We split for first, but then play a match anyway for the odd pack.
G1: Can't remember too much about this one except an early Tolarian Winds and a lot of beats.
Out: 3 Sickening Dreams, 1 Brainstorm In: 2 Ancient Grudge, 2 Ray of Revelation
G2: Draw into nothing but dredge, and no way to pitch for the first few turns. Then I pull a Tolarian Winds off the top for seven. I dredge pretty much everything in my deck save about 10 cards or so. I keep swinging, but he stalls like a motherfucker with crap like Deeds and Sudden Spoiling. He even Putrefied both of my reanimated Grave Trolls (no regeneration, grrr...). But eventually he runs out of answers and my beats just keep coming. I ended the game with 4 cards left in my library :laugh:.

So there you have it, discuss.

Bane of the Living

11-17-2006, 05:11 PM

So there you have it, discuss.

I like your list, it looks very tight. How did you like the Dread Returns? Did you ever wish they were something like Lotus Petals?

No Pithing Needles in the side? How did/do you take care of Tormod's Crypt? Grudge isnt amazing because they can still rip your yard away.

Ground Seal?

Pinder

11-17-2006, 07:17 PM

I like your list, it looks very tight. How did you like the Dread Returns? Did you ever wish they were something like Lotus Petals?

Not really. Even though I only run 16 lands, I usually have 2 of them in play by the time I start dredging up a storm. Most of them end up in the yard by the end anyway, as would Lotus Petals.

As for Dread Return, free, flashback reanimation is a godsend for this deck. Since you usually can't swing for lethal in one wave (it averages around 9-15), being able to follow up with a 10/10 or so flyer that regenerates is some good. They have to deal with it, or they die for sure.

No Pithing Needles in the side? How did/do you take care of Tormod's Crypt? Grudge isnt amazing because they can still rip your yard away.

Ground Seal?

About the Needles, um...you're right. They were in my Meathooks SB and I forgot to switch them in. Pithing Needle should definitely be in the board.

And Ground Seal stops a lot of grave hate. Not the most important kinds, but they draw you a card, too. I mostly stuck them in when Withered Wretch was running around my meta. They can probably be safely taken out of the board.

Ancient Grudge, however, is a definite include in the board. I'm actually thinking of running 1 MD alongside 1 Ray of Revelation so I can have some hate pre-board. Grudges aren't against Crypts, but against Needles mostly (we see a lot of them naming Ghouls). They also help against other random artifacts like the aforementioned Belcher, Aether Vial from Gobs, Smokestack, Chrome Moxes, just about everything in Affinity, etc., etc...Ray of Revelation is there to combat the inevitable E.Plagues, Worships, and Solitary Confinements you'll run into.

BiscuitVader

11-17-2006, 08:34 PM

Bane of the Living

11-18-2006, 07:59 AM

The deck effectively races goblins as long as they arent running Goblin Sharpshooter. I find Lackey easy to keep up with as long as you keep a busted hand. (Tolarian Wins)

Pinder

11-18-2006, 02:24 PM

I like your list, it looks really solid.

Question: How does this do against Goblins?
I think Sickening Dreams would be like a WoG, but you may not draw one in the first few turns, when it would really matter.

T1: Mountain, Lacky
T2: Wastland

^That looks really bad for you, IMO, I think -2 Thug, +2 Darkblast could be a very solid addition to the deck. It kills little Bears, Goblins, BoP, and other random creatures.

True. My meta is sort of scrubby, so the Dredge 4 is generally preferable to the creature removal that Darkblast provides. I still keep them in the board if I see Goblins or Thresh, though. In any meta where you expect to see even a moderate showing of Goblins, -2 Thug, +2 Darkblast is defininetly the way to go. Often the the extra dredge from Thugs is irrelevant anyway, and the creature removal is invaluable in any halfway developed meta. Just a reminder though, Thug is a black creature, which proves useful for Ichorid fodder as well.

Anarky87

11-20-2006, 10:07 AM

Pinder

11-20-2006, 04:13 PM

I've been testing this deck recently and I have to say I'm really diggin' it. I have a few questions though. How do you deal with enchantments, like Leyline of the Void, that come down before you get your hate online as all of your removal is off color, needing to be in the graveyard first?

Well, we don't. Turn 0 Leyline = scoop for us. We're working on that.

My second question is about the order of cards in the graveyard. I know that dredging cards is done all at once and that you can then choose the order in which, say, Ashen Ghoul is placed in the graveyard after a dredge. But does the graveyard have to maintain an order? Or can you just rearrange your graveyard how you want it, putting the Ghouls on the bottom all the time so they're guaranteed to have creatures above them? Thanks in advance and great work on the deck. It's looking to be my new pet deck.

Well, Wizards has been avoiding printing cards recently that worry about graveyard order for that very reason. It's fine when you rearrange your graveyard if nothing cares about the order. When you're playing this deck though, that's a definite no-no. Keep things where they are.

Obfuscate Freely

11-20-2006, 05:25 PM

Rearranging your graveyard is a great way to get a game loss in sanctioned play. Don't do it.

Anarky87

11-20-2006, 06:02 PM

Well, we don't. Turn 0 Leyline = scoop for us. We're working on that.

Ok, I was just curious about that. I was tinkering around with the SB today to include some kind of non-graveyard dependent options.

Well, Wizards has been avoiding printing cards recently that worry about graveyard order for that very reason. It's fine when you rearrange your graveyard if nothing cares about the order. When you're playing this deck though, that's a definite no-no. Keep things where they are.

Rearranging your graveyard is a great way to get a game loss in sanctioned play. Don't do it.

Thanks for the replies. I was really confused last night if it was legal or not to do that. Since then I've been paying more attention to what's in my graveyard. Also, if an Ichorid or Ghoul goes to my grave yard, I turn it side ways so part of it sticks out in clear contrast to the rest of the graveyard to make seeing those cards easier.

Pinder

11-20-2006, 07:18 PM

Also, if an Ichorid or Ghoul goes to my grave yard, I turn it side ways so part of it sticks out in clear contrast to the rest of the graveyard to make seeing those cards easier.

I don't think that should be a problem.

On another note, here's a tip: Whenever you're dredging, all things being equal, dredge from the bottom up. That way when you pitch the dredge cards to Putrid Imp, Sickening Dreams or what have you, they'll end up on top. This is really relevant for Ashen Ghoul. If you dredge a creature on top of the ghoul, then it stays on top when you pitch it, for a net change of nothing. But if you dredge the Stinkweed Imp underneath the Ashen Ghoul instead of the one on top of it, then you have both creatures on top when you pitch it. It's a great way to make sure you can always get your Ghoul on. Note that if there's a Troll above a Ghoul and an Imp below it, it's usually still better to dredge the Troll, as the extra dredge is helpful (except in special situation where you really need a Ghoul for lethal damage or something).

Ok, I was just curious about that. I was tinkering around with the SB today to include some kind of non-graveyard dependent options.

I've tried Naturalize in the board before, and it's not bad, except that you have to draw the damn thing. When you dredge everything, it's pretty easy to pick and choose your hate because it's all there in your yard, but actually having to wait and draw a Naturalize slows us down enough that we usually can't race (I'm speaking purely about IGGy Pop here, as it's the only deck I know of that runs Leyline MD).

Anarky87

11-20-2006, 09:29 PM

I don't think that should be a problem.

On another note, here's a tip: Whenever you're dredging, all things being equal, dredge from the bottom up. That way when you pitch the dredge cards to Putrid Imp, Sickening Dreams or what have you, they'll end up on top. This is really relevant for Ashen Ghoul. If you dredge a creature on top of the ghoul, then it stays on top when you pitch it, for a net change of nothing. But if you dredge the Stinkweed Imp underneath the Ashen Ghoul instead of the one on top of it, then you have both creatures on top when you pitch it. It's a great way to make sure you can always get your Ghoul on. Note that if there's a Troll above a Ghoul and an Imp below it, it's usually still better to dredge the Troll, as the extra dredge is helpful (except in special situation where you really need a Ghoul for lethal damage or something).

Great, thanks for the advice, I will definitely keep that in mind.

I've tried Naturalize in the board before, and it's not bad, except that you have to draw the damn thing. When you dredge everything, it's pretty easy to pick and choose your hate because it's all there in your yard, but actually having to wait and draw a Naturalize slows us down enough that we usually can't race (I'm speaking purely about IGGy Pop here, as it's the only deck I know of that runs Leyline MD).

Iggy-Pop is what I was thinking of as well, as I could see this as having good games against both aggro and control, but was worried about the combo matchup. I've also seen Truffle Shuffle lists SB'ing Leyline, but that deck isn't as prevalent. I, too, thought about Naturalize, and Echoing Truth like Zilla coined a few pages back. I think I'm going to try a few matches with both and see which I like best. But yes, actually having to draw them blows on a lot of levels.

Also, Needles are a bitch to get ahold of. I've been trying for awhile, but haven't been too successful. Not that I'm not willing to pay for them, I just can't find them/get outbid last second on ebay. But I digress.

Pinder

11-22-2006, 12:14 AM

Great, thanks for the advice, I will definitely keep that in mind.

Iggy-Pop is what I was thinking of as well, as I could see this as having good games against both aggro and control, but was worried about the combo matchup. I've also seen Truffle Shuffle lists SB'ing Leyline, but that deck isn't as prevalent. I, too, thought about Naturalize, and Echoing Truth like Zilla coined a few pages back. I think I'm going to try a few matches with both and see which I like best. But yes, actually having to draw them blows on a lot of levels.

Also, Needles are a bitch to get ahold of. I've been trying for awhile, but haven't been too successful. Not that I'm not willing to pay for them, I just can't find them/get outbid last second on ebay. But I digress.

Indeed. I only have 2, and I haven't been able to find another 2 at all. No one is selling them, everyone is keeping them. You could always pony up the ridiculous online card shop prices.

Evil Roopey

11-22-2006, 09:38 AM

I really haven't had a chance to look through the whole thread because I didn't feel like it so if someone has already done this excuse this post.

So far, 4x Chalice main and 4x Pithing Needle in the 'board has been doing a very good job of stopping people from stopping me. This is the list that I have been fucking around with lately:

// Lands
3 [PT] Swamp (1)
2 [JU] Riftstone Portal
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Underground Sea
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum

// Creatures
4 [IA] Ashen Ghoul
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll

// Spells
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [OD] Zombie Infestation
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [US] Tolarian Winds
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [TO] Deep Analysis

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 4 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 [NE] Massacre

Chalice is as amazing main in this deck as it is everywhere else. Setting it to 1 game 1 against most decks, and then to 0 for those damned Crypts postboard. I think that with some more fine tuning this deck can fight the hate and actually be a deck to reckon with. Try it out.

Togit460

11-22-2006, 02:22 PM

Chalice of the Void should be a sideboard card for the following reasons: It's not spectacular game 1 whereas in your build i can't help but notice the missing of wonder and darkblast/golgari grave thug. I'd honestly not feel good about running this deck vs. other decks without access to wonder since it's what lets you get in for the direct damage. Also missing sickening dreams on game 1 hurts against 2/3 at least of all decks out there and is therefore i feel a mistake. I like the idea of boarding in x4 chalice for x4 chrome mox to sacrifice a little speed for stability against many decks hate options. If they run leyline x4 (iggy pop much?) then there needs to be another answer for that since it's a main part of absolutely screwing our strategy. needle seems decent in the board as well and has been a x3 in mine since i picked up the deck. Oh, and always have x1 darkblast in your deck for that lone goblin sharpshooter. So here's the changes to your list i'd use.
-4 chalice (move to board) -1 swamp (shouldn't need more than 16 land), +3 sickening dreams, +1 wonder, +1 darkblast/thug. And then i still want x1 dread return so probably -1 ? for that.

Pinder

11-22-2006, 02:28 PM

Wow. Despite being radically different from mine, your list looks really solid. That's awesome. I'm just wondering how effective Chalice truly is Game 1? Game 2 It could always come down for zero against Crypts, but that means it could be just as effective in the board. I'm just wondering if running maindeck hate against other hate is really prudent here.

On another note, how are the ZI's working for you? I've always tried to find a way to put them in, because the tokens they generate get insane after a while, but I've always found that the whole 'discard 2 cards' thing made it too slow, as I was usually emptying my hand, and thus could only use it once every other turn. Do you find that that isn't an issue very much?

EDIT: Oh, and Togit is pretty much right on all accounts. I didn't notice that your list didn't have Wonder. You need at least 1, and I run 2 just to make sure it hits the yard. It's just that important. Dread Return, although fun, doesn't strike me as an absolute necessity for the deck, however. Usually, my 13/13 Grave-Troll ends up swinging in for the last 3-4 points of damage, which is something I could do with an Ichorid or two, quite frankly. Although, having regenerating fat stick around after you swing is always a nice insurance policy. I run them because they're good, but they might be a candidate for cutting if something better comes along.

Oh, and I've always been less than enamoured with Chrome Mox. First turn Tolarian Winds...for 3? Meh. I'd rather stick around till second turn, drop my land, and Winds for 5. I suppose it might help with a first turn ZI if you run them, though. But overall I'm not sure they're really useful enough to warrant removing cards in your hand for.

Evil Roopey

11-22-2006, 02:43 PM

Cutting a land for a Wonder sounds like a good idea, and maybe finding room for a Darkblast somewhere, but the main reason to run Chalice main is because it isn't a horrible card and you really don't have room for it in the board, hence it's maindeck slot. You could technically run Ancient Grudge main over Chalice if you feel it would be better, but I like Chalice a lot.

Roopey

Pinder

11-22-2006, 02:58 PM

Well, except that Grudge doesn't do anything against Crypt and Chalice does, I prefer Grudge in most situations. And I only run Grudge SB anyway. Even if Chalice does warrant a maindeck slot, though, I'm not feeling it as a 4-of. You'll get to play about 1 per game on average, and the rest get dredged. I understand that means that you have to have it in your opening hand or in your first few draws a lot, but you should be able to accomplish that with only 3. That would free up room for Darkblast and friends.

I still prefer it in the board, though. Just sayin'

Anarky87

11-22-2006, 04:01 PM

I'd also consider going 3 Chalice, 1 D'blast MD if you're going to go that route. I'm also thinking of going -1 Dread Return, +1 D'blast in my list. It's nice having a huge fatty to swing with, but sometimes they just manage to draw into that StP even after I've Therapied a few. And I always seem to hit both of them relatively quick, so I think even with 1 it should be alright. And D'blast will give an extra dredge.

Bane of the Living

11-22-2006, 06:36 PM

Roopey Im surprised your ok missing Brainstorm and Carefull Study. I've found it a necessity to run at least one of them for the card draw. I suppose playing chalice for 1 is much more important than dredging three targets but maybe Sylvian Library could shore up that spot for you.

Togit460

11-22-2006, 06:42 PM

Bane of the Living

11-22-2006, 06:52 PM

Im also pretty shocked no ones playing Nether Traitor. He's kinda like playing additional Ashen Ghouls but he can come into play whenever Ichorid dies. Seems worth a try maybe.

Togit460

11-22-2006, 07:05 PM

you have to have mana open to use that, which you shouldn't ever have due to using it on other more important things like deep analing yourself (:laugh: ). It's also just taking up a slot i'd rather hand off to a dredger. If we had open space i'd consider it, but for now getting a 1/1 in legacy seems pretty suboptimal.

EDIT: first post and we're on page 10. Which officially makes this thread awesome.

Anarky87

11-24-2006, 05:21 PM

Am I right in thinking that sylvan library works well with dredge (not having to pay 8 life a turn that is)? Isn't the replacement effect the reason for that which is why it works with uba mask as well right? If this is the case then i'd want x4 library's over x4 whatever draw engine can be replaced. Yay, maybe this deck CAN be competitive.

I checked up on this at SCG and this is what I found:

Q: I have a Sylvan Library in play with Life From The Loam and Darkblast in my graveyard. My draw step comes around. I draw my normal card, then use Sylvan Library's ability to draw two, replacing both with the Dredge effects of Life and Darkblast (to get those pesky useless lands off the top of my library) My question is, since I've drawn a card normally this turn, do I have to put one back? I'm thinking no, since the "If you do" on Sylvan Library never happens since I replaced both draw with Dredge.

A: While you did not actually draw two cards when Sylvan Library's ability resolved, you did choose to draw these cards. So when this triggered ability resolves, you will have to either pay 4 life or put back the card you drew for your normal draw that turn.

Whit3 Ghost

11-24-2006, 06:03 PM

The new thing in Vintage

"Cookie Monster"

The Engine (14)
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Golgari Gravetroll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Darkblast**
0 Vamp Tutor*
0 Crop Rotation*
0 Life from the Loam*

Mana (8)
1 Mox Jet
1 Chrome Mox
4 Bayou
2 Overgrown Tomb

Disruption (14)
4 Chalice of the void
4 Unmask
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress**

The Cheats (4)
4 Serum Powder

The Free Creatures (12)
4 Ichorid
4 Ashen Ghoul
4 Nether Shadow

Win Condition: (8)
2 Dread Return
2 Sutured Ghoul <--- "The Cookie Monster himself"
2 Dragon's Breath
2 "Meat Creatures" (typically I like: 2 Devouring Sostruss)

Cards marked with a * change from deck to deck.

Can this deck be ported to Legacy or is the loss of Bazaar too great a hit to the decks power?

Duress, Bazaar and probably Powder can be cut, giving us 10 slots to work with.

Togit460

11-24-2006, 11:58 PM

First of all in regards to sutured ghoul combo; that's not true ichorid, or even a good variant since it follows a different play style. Secondly, with sylvan library: does this mean that you can dredge twice from the cards and then put the dredged cards back on top? If so i'd say it's worth testing out.

mercc

11-25-2006, 02:59 AM

Anarky87

11-25-2006, 11:35 AM

Maybe this just sucks, I've never played the deck, but how about the new card from timespiral:

Dread Return, 2BB
Return target creature card from your graveyard to play. Flashback-Sacrifice three creatures. (You may play this card from your graveyard for its flashback cost. Then remove it from the game.)

For reference, here's the list I split for first with last Friday in a 36 man tourney:

//Land
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Island (this should probably be a swamp, but whatever)
4 Polluted Delta

//Dredge
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug

//Draw
3 Brainstorm
4 Deep Analysis
4 Tolarian Winds

//Dudes
4 Ichorid
4 Ashen Ghoul
4 Putrid Imp

//Tech
3 Sickening Dreams
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
2 Wonder

//Sideboard
4 Ground Seal
2 Ray of Revelation
3 Darkblast
3 Ghastly Demise
3 Ancient Grudge

My own list, which is not really that different from Pinder's:

//Land//
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta

//Dredge//
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug

//Draw//
3 Brainstorm
4 Deep Analysis
4 Tolarian Winds

//Dudes//
4 Ichorid
4 Ashen Ghoul
4 Putrid Imp

//Tech//
3 Sickening Dreams
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return
1 Darkblast
2 Wonder

So yup, we got the Dread Return covered ;)

Cavius The Great

11-25-2006, 12:21 PM

Why not run Sutured Ghoul and a couple Krosan Cloudscraper since you're running Dread Return? I see no point in running Dread Return without any recurrable fatties.

Pinder

11-25-2006, 12:34 PM

Why not run Sutured Ghoul and a couple Krosan Cloudscraper since you're running Dread Return? I see no point in running Dread Return without any recurrable fatties.

The cool thing about Grave-Troll is, he's a dredge engine and a reccurable fatty. More often than not, Grave Troll comes out bigger than Cloudscraper (in my experience, he averages 15/15). And, while perhaps not as big as a Sutured Ghoul might be, we don't actually have to remove every creature in the yard for him to be big. They just have to be in there. Oh, and he regenerates for 1 mana. I think we have our fatty.

@Whit3 Ghost: That decklist looks sort of cool, but it probably deserves its own thread somewhere. It's not really pure Friggorid. Seems that it's more focused on reanimating big hasty dudes. And since the deck is only GB, then the loss of Bazaar is/ a pretty big hit to the viablility IMO. You'd probably have to splash blue and run Winds or Deep Anal or some sort of other card draw. There are 10 Slots open, though. It could work.

Anarky87

11-25-2006, 05:24 PM

Should 1 Swamp also be considered run along side our 1 Island? That way you can play around Wasteland easier? I was just testing the Goblins matchup and in one game they were able to Port down my blue source and Waste my black sources, essentially shutting down my game. I'm not sure the land configuration to do that, maybe -1 Bayou, +1 Swamp. Or does the fact that you rarely need more than 1-2 land kind of bypass that? Just a thought.

Pinder

11-27-2006, 05:08 PM

Jankwolf

11-30-2006, 01:42 PM

It probably couldn't hurt to have 1 basic Swamp in the deck to avoid wasteland and such. Early on you need your blue sources for setup, which is why I included the Island, but once you have Ghouls in the yard and unwastelandable source of black couldn't hurt either.

Yes but question, What if an opponent is running that ghost quarter card...
Ive seen it in some decklist(most of which run two along side a compliment of 4 wastelands.) Against decks that are duel heavy with few basic lands...They pop one of the two and you are left with only one basic land out of two. Just surious.

Pinder

11-30-2006, 01:59 PM

Yes but question, What if an opponent is running that ghost quarter card...
Ive seen it in some decklist(most of which run two along side a compliment of 4 wastelands.) Against decks that are duel heavy with few basic lands...They pop one of the two and you are left with only one basic land out of two. Just surious.

I'm not terribly afraid of Ghost Quarter at the moment. But if it gets big, we might have to consider more basics.

Anarky87

11-30-2006, 06:34 PM

I haven't seen any decklists sporting this card. The only time I saw someone running it was when I played it myself in Standard. I played the deck in a little round robin tournament last night and just lost to about everything. I went 1-2 against Madness, 0-2 against Goblins, 2-0 against some crappy mill deck (apparently he didn't know milling was good for my deck), and then 0-2 against Landstill (BHWC version). They'd essentially Waste me out of black mana, then I'd be stuck with only Ichorids until I ran out of black creatures to pitch. I also seemed to just dredge into lands and non-creature stuff all the time.

Togit460

12-04-2006, 01:12 AM

could you detail your report more with your exact decklist and sideboarding choices in the tourney. Also a more in depth analysis of what you thought were pivotal plays in the matchup. thanks!

Anarky87

12-04-2006, 01:32 PM

My list was:

//Land//
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta

//Dredge//
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug

//Draw//
3 Brainstorm
4 Deep Analysis
4 Tolarian Winds

//Dudes//
4 Ichorid
4 Ashen Ghoul
4 Putrid Imp

//Tech//
3 Sickening Dreams
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return
1 Darkblast
2 Wonder

SB
1 Pithing Needle (All I could get
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of revelation
2 Darkblast
1 Dread Return
3 Something else, can't quite remmber at the time.

Round 1 U/G Madness
Game 1: I do alot of dredging and I think he mulliganed to 5. Anyway, I do my thing, beating him down to a low life, until he gets an active Jitte on Mongrel I think and is then able to stall me pretty good. I eventually Dread Return Grave Troll, bring back a bunch of dudes during my upkeep and swing over his guys for the win. Not sure what came out, I think some Sickening Dreams and such for Needle and friends (Chalice) and some Grudges. Game 2 he gets a Jitte down, but I have Grudge flashback, so it dies. I keep beating him down, I get him down to one, but since my creatures don't stick around for the most part, he gets some creatures down, mounts an alpha strike and hits me for exactly 10. Game 3 I mulligan twice, still getting crappy draws, so I keep my 5. He double Wastes my lands and beats me from there, with me never getting going.

Round 2 Goblin Sligh
Game 1: He does what goblins does, hits me for a ton, I somewhat stabalize with Dreams, putting me at 5...he drops Chief>Piledriver>Swing and I lose. Bring in the D'blasts. He beats me down again pretty low, but I stabalize for a long time, until he Fireblasts+Guerilla Tactics me for the win.

Round 3 Some U/B Milling...thing
Game 1: He turn 1 Glimpse the unthinkable on me, which I thanked him for and proceeded to beat his face with a large Grave Troll via Dread Return. Board in nothing. Game 2: See Game 1.

Round 4 Bye

Round 5 BHWC Landstill

Game 1: I get a craptacular draw even after a mulligan, and I can't squeeze in enough damage through Deeds, Edicts, and Swords. Board in Needles and its wannabe's. I mulligan my hand into a turn 1 Needle (I did this alot in spite of only have 1 to board in, lol.), he drops a turn 0 Leyline of the Void and I scoop as I don't have a chance.

And that was how the tournament went. Alot games, especially the Madness and Landstill matches saw them Wasting me completely out of my color sources. So I do believe a basic Swamp needs to be added to the deck. Pivotal plays? Hm, none that I can really think of. Maybe it was just me, but I never felt like I was taking command of the game. And at times, most of my creatures not sticking around kinda killed me because they could just build one huge strike and kill me.

Goblin Snowman

12-04-2006, 03:03 PM

They'd essentially Waste me out of black mana, then I'd be stuck with only Ichorids until I ran out of black creatures to pitch. I also seemed to just dredge into lands and non-creature stuff all the time.

If the deck doesn't have a very fast clock, this doesn't accomplish anything. I have gotten Ichorid down to 0 lands, Imps, Infestation, Moxes and whatnot, and he just waited until he had 8 cards in hand to get the engine going. It's not fast, but it works. Dredging into crap is rough, but it shouldn't happen too much.

Anarky87

12-04-2006, 03:16 PM

If the deck doesn't have a very fast clock, this doesn't accomplish anything. I have gotten Ichorid down to 0 lands, Imps, Infestation, Moxes and whatnot, and he just waited until he had 8 cards in hand to get the engine going. It's not fast, but it works. Dredging into crap is rough, but it shouldn't happen too much.

I tried just going to 8 cards, then pitching, but in the mean time, he was beating me for 6-8 per turn.

Pinder

12-04-2006, 07:34 PM

Even if we don't have mana, we can still get the ball rolling, sure, but it rolls slowly. Usually it doesn't roll fast enough to bring in the win. If it's a control deck, we can usually afford that, but if it's Goblins slinging Wastelands at us, we don't do that well.

I think that one thing we need (aside from a way to deal with a turn 0 Leyline) is a more reliable source of creature removal. Darkblast works pretty well, but it doesn't kill enough, fast enough. Having to play it and dredge it for -2/-2 just seems like an awful lot. Sickening Dreams is great for, but typically only early game when my hand is full in order to get things going. Once I'm dredging, it either ends up in the yard, or I draw it late game with virtually no cards in hand.

There are a few other options I can think of off hand: Crippling Fatigue, Cabal Pit, and Ghastly Demise. Fatigue has the bonus of Flashback (and the mana cost isn't too prohibitive if we actually want to cast it), but the 3 life is a little steep, especially when we're already dropping 3 life for Deep Anals. Pit is nice in that it's uncounterable and colorless, but it's a one time thing and only gives -2/-2. Plus, it gets dredged a lot just like everything else. Ghastly Demise doesn't hit black creatures, but it kills just about everything else. Spending B to kill Exalted Angel is some good. Unfortunately, what with all the dredging, it doesn't end up in our hand very much.

Thoughts?

Anarky87

12-04-2006, 08:08 PM

Ghastly Demise doesn't hit black creatures, but it kills just about everything else. Spending B to kill Exalted Angel is some good. Unfortunately, what with all the dredging, it doesn't end up in our hand very much.

Thoughts?

Ghastly Demise was the other card in my SB that was a 3-of. I don't know how good it really is as I never sided it in.

Goblin Snowman

12-04-2006, 08:36 PM

Pinder

12-04-2006, 09:20 PM

I used to run Life from the Loam as a 2 of (and eventually a 1 of) in some of my earlier lists. The only thing it really had against it was that it was pretty slow, and didn't really do a whole lot. If we had Cabal Pit as a main source of creature removal, I could concievably see them going back in, but overall I've found them pretty underwhelming.

morgan_coke

12-04-2006, 11:30 PM

What about Nether Traitor? I know he costs B and only has one power, but he's black and hasty and seems like a good include here.

Pinder

12-05-2006, 04:21 PM

The thing with Nether Traitor is, the timing is all off. It only comes back when something dies. Since usually I'm using all of my black to reanimate Ghouls, there's not really any left over when Ichorids hit the yard to reanimate Traitors with. Also, Ichorids die after combat, which means that the turn the Traitors would hit the table, they can't even swing. And if they could, they'd only swing for 1. Putrid Imp is bigger than that on average. They're just not that great here.

Togit460

12-07-2006, 01:27 PM

The problem with nether traitor is he's obv. worse than ash. ghoul since the fundamental legacy turn is too fast for the traitor to be decent. Also the decklist is to tight to allow for it currently, but it is something to consider if something combo-like starts occuring with it kind of like the angry ghoul combo...

Pinder

01-04-2007, 01:54 PM

Super Turbo Bump FTW!

So, Magus of the Bazaar was spoiled:

Magus of the Bazaar 1U
Creature - Human Wizard (Rare)
T: Draw 2 cards, then discard 3 cards
0/1

It's not a land like it is in Vintage, but it might be able to give the deck a boost. On the other hand it's fairly fragile, and not black enough for Ichorid. Thoughts?

Zilla

01-04-2007, 05:51 PM

It's not a land like it is in Vintage, but it might be able to give the deck a boost. On the other hand it's fairly fragile, and not black enough for Ichorid. Thoughts?
Well, that's certainly less broken than its Land counterpart. The ability is awesome, but the slowness and fragility probably make it unplayable. The format is as prepared for x/1 creatures as ever, and it's rife with Pithing Needle to boot. I think you're going to be better off sticking with Toldarian Winds, Careful Study, etc. for your draw and discard, because while it's not reusable, it's faster and far less easily disrupted.

edgewalker

01-04-2007, 05:52 PM

I still have hope for this deck. However, I don't think the Magus is as good as it seems. It's 2cc that doesn't work till turn 3. This deck likes it's 2cc cards to work on turn 2 (TW and ZI) I also am worried about his size, the fact that he's 0/1 and is affected by summoning sickness makes me really scared.

sammiel

01-04-2007, 06:00 PM

the real problem is that he dies to lackey hate.

Pinder

01-04-2007, 07:24 PM

And Mogg Fanatic. All in all this has some gee-whiz factor, but ultimately it probably just won't work.

Pinder

04-15-2007, 10:10 PM

LIVE! LIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIVE!

Anyway, there are some cards in Future Sight that certainly seem like they would give a boon to this deck (except Yixlid Jailer, but fuck Yixlid Jailer), so I figure I would throw them out here to get discussion on this archetype going again:

Street Wraith 3BB
Creature - Wraith

Swampwalk
Cycling - Pay 2 life.

3/4

Free cycling and a black body for Ichorid to munch on? Seems nice.

Dakmor Salvage
Land

Dakmor Salvage comes into play tapped.
{T}: Add {B} to your mana pool.
Dredge 2 (If you would draw a card, instead you may put exactly two cards from the top of your library into your graveyard. If you do, return this card from your graveyard to your hand. Otherwise, draw a card.)

It's a land. With Dredge. Typically whenever I'm playing this deck I sit on about 2 lands after I get going, and being able to get more black mana sources for Ghoul and also have a tad bit more dredge in the deck doesn't seem like it could hurt anything. It also helps fight wasteland, albeit slowly. I could see it as a 2-of replacing a couple of basic swamps.

Tombstalker 6BB
Creature - Demon

Flying
Delve (You may remove any number of cards in your graveyard from the game as you play this spell. It costs 1 less to play for each card removed this way.)

5/5

Honestly, when does this deck not have 6 or more cards in its graveyard? It will probably get dredged, so you'd need a way to get it back (Golgari Thug?), but 5/5s for 2 with evasion can't ever hurt. It also removes to Ichorid if not needed, and is still a decent Dread Return target. Perhaps as a 1 or 2 of SB as tech against Enginnered Plague?

Bridge from Below BBB
Enchantment R

Whenever a non-token creature is put into your graveyard from play, if Bridge from Below is in your graveyard, put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token into play.
Whenever a creature is put into an opponent's graveyard from play, if Bridge from Below is in your graveyard, remove Bridge from Below from the game.

An enchantment that works from the graveyard, you say? That's exactly where my stuff usually ends up! Makes a token whenever something dies, you say? Half of my threats die at end of turn, and I sac even more for discard and reanimation! Sign me the fuck up. Honestly the best token producer for this deck since Zombie Infestation, the fact that it works when you dredge it just like everything else just makes it fantastic for this deck. It either gives you more beats for next turn, or gives you chump blockers against aggro to stall until the turn you win. Of all the cards for this deck from this set, this one has my Johnny senses tingling the most. The 'removes from game if your opponent's creature dies' clause is a little lame, though. Mogg Fanatic much?

Along with these, I also think that the deck might have to start maindecking 1-2 Darkblast again if it wants to be able to deal with Yixlid Jailer. But we'll deal with that when it comes.

So, what are everyone's thoughts?

kicks_422

04-15-2007, 11:39 PM

I agree that the cards you mentioned would bring a lot of power to Ichorid.dec, but the deck's main weakness is still graveyard hate. The above cards only make the deck rely on the graveyard MORE.

...That said, I have to admit that with that much synergy and power in one deck, resiliency might soon follow... All of those 4 cards give a lot to the deck's plan.

I don't think Jailer will get popular in Legacy though... Maybe in Extended, but not here.

Pinder

04-16-2007, 12:19 AM

I agree that the cards you mentioned would bring a lot of power to Ichorid.dec, but the deck's main weakness is still graveyard hate. The above cards only make the deck rely on the graveyard MORE.

True, but the deck relies on its graveyard a ton right now anyway. I figure, if you have to rely heavily on your graveyard, you should at least be doing some really cool shit while you're at it.

...That said, I have to admit that with that much synergy and power in one deck, resiliency might soon follow... All of those 4 cards give a lot to the deck's plan.

Actually, the only card I was thinking would be a 4 of is the street wraith. All of the other cards I mentioned are 1-2 ofs at best. Although I admit that 3-4 Bridge from Below triggering off of a single Ichorid for 9-12 tokens a turn is nice, it seems like it would take up too much room in the deck.

Michael Keller

04-16-2007, 12:36 AM

It's a land. With Dredge. Typically whenever I'm playing this deck I sit on about 2 lands after I get going, and being able to get more black mana sources for Ghoul and also have a tad bit more dredge in the deck doesn't seem like it could hurt anything. It also helps fight wasteland, albeit slowly. I could see it as a 2-of replacing a couple of basic swamps.

You can't fetch for it and it comes into play tapped. I'd save a Wasteland and not even touch this. I can't see that. Yeah if it's dredged then obviously you can bring it back. But you have better things to dredge with. A basic Swamp is slightly superior. You want to actually be able to cast something like Mesmeric Fiend turn two.

Pinder

04-16-2007, 12:52 AM

Meh, you could be right. Except, who in the hell runs Fiend in this deck? I sure don't. I want to play Tolarian Winds on turn 2. But your point stands.

Also, I don't fetch basic lands with this deck. Ever. Optimally, you want all of your lands to be able to produce blue by second turn, and black thereafter.

Maverick676

04-16-2007, 12:53 AM

Oh dear god why are you running mesmeric fiend? There are so many better cards to put into this deck. You have much better things to be casting turn two, like tolarian winds. Also a basic swamp will never be strictly better until it gets errated to have dredge.

Illissius

04-16-2007, 10:00 AM

You could circumvent the Bridge's drawback with Leyline of the Void, if you're so inclined. I'm only noting this because Leyline sees occasional maindeck play regardless, at least in Vintage.

Pinder

04-16-2007, 05:19 PM

You could circumvent the Bridge's drawback with Leyline of the Void, if you're so inclined. I'm only noting this because Leyline sees occasional maindeck play regardless, at least in Vintage.

So far as I can tell, though, Leyline only sees play in Vintage Ichorid because Yawgmoth's Will sees play in Vintage. Although, if you focused the deck a little more around the bridge, Leyline might not be such a bad inclusion. But I'm not sure mucking up standard Legacy Friggorid with 4 MD Leyline is really that great of an idea.

Goblin Snowman

04-16-2007, 10:28 PM

Has anyone seen Narcomoeba?

1u

Flying
When Narcomoeba is put into your graveyard from your library, you may put it into play.

1/1

Pinder

04-16-2007, 11:12 PM

I did, but I ultimately discounted it for a couple reasons:

1) It comes back right when you dredge it, which is nice, but it only comes back once. Once it dies, it doesn't come back.
2) It's not black, so it's another card Ichorid can't munch on.

Overall, I think Narcomoeba is more conducive to a Dread Return ->Sutured Ghoul sort of thing. Potentially, you could have a huge hasty Ghoul by turn 2 via Tolarian Winds triggering 3 Narcomoeba. I expect it might be more of a consideration for Manaless Ichorid in Vintage, though.

edgewalker

04-17-2007, 07:12 AM

Honestly, at this point I think the only tool that's really going to affect us is Wraith. First turn dredge is always nice, and although the other cards are decent, I just don't think we have room for decent cards.

Ninj4

04-17-2007, 12:12 PM

That bridge card seems pretty good, even if it only activates for 1 or 2 turns. Your still getting 2-3 zombies or 3-6 if you have 2 in the yard and last time I checked, 4 zombies + ichorids are pretty rough to deal with. if you had 2 in the yard, you could make one hell of a loop with multiple dredge returns and cabal therapies, doubling your zombie count every time. how nutty is that?

Except for the wratih though, the other cards seems pretty meh. i wouldn't run them over anything thats already in the deck. the land was worth considering but the comes into play tapped is a gamebreaker. 5/5 fo bb? it has to get into your hand first. kinda meh - i wouldn't play anything unless it came for your yard or was a discard enabler.

for the jailer, i wouldn't be too worried. I don't think any deck would maindeck him, and few would sideboard him. there's not much he would hurt to warrant an entry.

This deck might get mighty interesting once FS gets released.

Pinder

04-17-2007, 10:01 PM

if you had 2 in the yard, you could make one hell of a loop with multiple dredge returns and cabal therapies, doubling your zombie count every time. how nutty is that?

I hope you don't mean saccing Zombies to get more zombies. It's whenever a nontoken creature hits the yard, so when your zombie tokens hit the yard, you don't get more. You could always reanimate Ichorid for some more zombies, though.

Ninj4

04-17-2007, 10:21 PM

I should read teh card better sometimes >_>

Cait_Sith

06-02-2007, 10:41 PM

My most recent build:

// Lands
1 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Underground Sea
1 [FUT] Dakmor Salvage
1 [5E] Swamp (2)
1 [JU] Riftstone Portal
2 [U] Island (3)

// Creatures
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
2 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot

// Spells
4 [OD] Careful Study
4 [US] Tolarian Winds
3 [TO] Breakthrough
3 [TO] Deep Analysis
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 4 [OD] Moment's Peace
SB: 4 [OD] Ground Seal
SB: 4 [TSP] Ancient Grudge

Dakmor Salvage ensure that you get 2 mana easily for flashing back Deep Analysis.

ratzes

06-03-2007, 12:39 AM

Why no Street Wraiths?

Just curious

laststepdown

06-03-2007, 03:04 AM

Also, in another thread, there is discussion of an almost-manaless verion using Lion's Eye Diamond/Street Wraith cycle on the stack, to discard the whole hand, and grab a card, netting UUU for Cephalid Collosium. Has this been tested in the normal version?

Windux

06-03-2007, 05:36 AM

I think 8 non-Ichorid Black Creatures are way to few.
You had Putrids in the older version, but now? There are not that many situations where you want to remove an Imp or Thug, if you didn't had the bombstart (a.k.a. a perfectly used Breakthrough, a Winds or Coloseum).
Street Wraith would really fit into this deck, but the big problem ist, you just don't have slots, you want to cut for it.

Also, you don't have Wonders, which can be a problem.
If you have non-flying Ichorids and Bridges in your grave, you won't be able to attack, since he simply blocks and removes your Bridges.
If you look at NQG and Fish, you see, they have no way to get their own creatures into their graveyard:
Mongoose can't be target
Tarmogoyf is too big to get burned
StoP simply removes from the Game.

You ruin this, if you can't attack, because he just have to block, to ruin the great Bridge-Synergy.

Cait_Sith

06-03-2007, 08:34 AM

One Bridge Trigger is enough to generate 10-12 2/2 tokens. If I worry about creatures getting dumped into yards than I run Sb Leyline (most like in place of Ground Seal)

8 Black Non-Ichorids has not shown to be too few, yet. If anything I would cut a Golgari Thug for a Wonder.

Street Wraith is a very janky card here. For it to be useful you need a dredger in the graveyard, a Street Wraith in your hand, and no mana open. That is too situational for such a small effect, and absolutely no discard to dump the creature I fetched back.

Also, people seem to forget Friggorid is meant to defeat combo and control, not Aggro. (That makes me contemplate SBing 4 Unmask as well)

BreathWeapon

06-03-2007, 10:27 AM

Glimpse the Unthinkable and Myr Servitor both deserve a lot of thought in their own right, and I think just tutoring for Tolarian Winds with Mystical Tutor is better than using Breakthrough.

How is one Bridge trigger creating that many Zombie?

Bovinious

06-03-2007, 11:32 AM

The list I'm running is kinda different, no dread return business just ashen ghouls/ichorid/ZI, now with Bridge From Below, I'll explain why later:

4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
2 Swamp
1 Island
3 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Ichorid
4 Ashen Ghoul
4 Bridge From Below

4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Golgari Thug

4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
4 Putrid Imp
4 Zombie Infestation
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Deep Analysis
2 Wonder

SB:
4 Pithing Needle
2 Darkblast
3 Riftstone Portal
3 Ray of Revelation
3 Ancient Grudge

I cut 2 Chrome Mox, 1 Deep Analysis, and 1 Golgari Thug for the 4 Bridges, so I may want to add a few more lands to make up for the lost moxen, or add the moxen back.

I don't like Dread Return and such because it gives opponents something to counter and doesnt really seem faster than overwhelming them with hasty ghouls/ichorids and zombie tokens from ZI/Bridge. Dread Return may be better then before now with Bridge though, but I prolly still wont run it, I like the aggro strat better than reanimate/combo one. Dakmor Salvage just seems awful to me, it takes you 2 turns once hit its the yard to add a mana, 1 turn to dredge it 1 for it to sit in play tapped, and theres zero point of it if theres no Ashen Ghouls to use the mana for.

I'd like to try out Street Wraiths but can't think of anything to cut, I probably made bad cuts for the Bridges so cutting for Wraith also will be hard, I'm not sure its even needed in addition to Brainstorm and Study.

Cait_Sith

06-03-2007, 04:30 PM

I run 1 Salvage in case I need mana, and it acts as one, bad, dredge outlet.

Mirrislegend

06-03-2007, 04:41 PM

Over in the mana-less Ichorid thread, they brought up Dryad Arbor as sideboard tech. How might that fit into the regular version?

Bovinious

06-04-2007, 09:09 PM

What would be the point of Dryad Arbor? side it in to be able to cast Reverent Silence or Emerald Charm? I don't see how it would get into play reliably other than maybe Dread return which seems like a waste and also how would you get the Silence/Charm into hand reliably? I dont think it really fits in unless I'm missing something, none of our fetch lands can even go get it.

I may try out 1 Dakhmor Salvage in place of a Swamp b/c it can function as a dredger and I've recently went down to 9 and would like to go back to 10, and I suppose it can help w/ Ashen Ghouls/Deeps if the game goes late..

Jaynel

06-04-2007, 09:13 PM

Like you said, it helps with SB stuff but Dryad Arbor can beat for a few points and flashback Dread Return.

Bovinious

06-04-2007, 09:19 PM

Even if I ran Dread Return, which I don't, I wouldnt want to reanimate a 1/1 that taps for useless green mana. I'd rather have a SB w/ riftstone/Flashback engine cards I can dredge into rather than rely on drawing green land a SB card in the first 10-12 cards I see. Even tho those arn't not so hot vs. GY hate, I can still run Needle for Crypt and Chain for Vapor for Leyline whihc no one plays anways. I just don't think Arbor really fits I guess at least in my list.

edgewalker

06-04-2007, 09:39 PM

The point of the arbor, in the T1 manaless ichorid builds, is that it acts as both a land and a creature you can sac to dread returns, which at this point, if you're not running a dread reaturns based version you're an idiot. They're more fragile from a graveyard sense, but they're much much quicker and more consistant. The only issue I see at the moment with the deck is bridge fom below. It's an awsome card but unfortunately it's not so hot in Legacy where creatures are every where. A single goblin lackey can ruin your entire gameplan. If we can find a way to sure up that card or just the speed at which we get token. This deck is a contendor.

Bovinious

06-04-2007, 10:09 PM

I missed the part where Dread Return is good in Legacy just because its good in Vintage Ichorid decks, which by the way have never won a major tourney or even top4d to my knowledge. To me Dread Return is bad because I'd rather actually attack with the creatures I put on the board rather than sac them to Dread Return (which could end up getting countered). Don't even say Dread Return has broken interactions with Bridge because Therapy or Combat orEOT sac Ichorid is plenty of ways to get Bridge to trigger, plus chances are some of the 3 creatures you'd sac would be tokens, not getting you another token back. Also, putting in reanimate targets that are dead w/o a Dread Return seems awful as this deck need every slot for actual relevent cards.

How is Bridge bad, and why would you support Dread Return if you think Bridge is bad? Just becuase creatures are everywhere doesnt mean theyll die, you can fly over with wonder, sac ur dudes first, and still trigger Bridge once even when your guys get blocked. I don't see how having Dread Return will stop goblins from saccing a fanatic to remove your Bridges, which by the way is not your entire gameplan if your playing Ashen Ghouls and not running Dread Returns/reanimate targets. Goblins is actually a pretty decent matchup if you play ZI(they pretty muhc scoop to ZI), and Needle + Darkblast SB, even tho Bridge is bad in that matchup. I did well versus Gobs before Bridge was printed and will not get any worse after, I'll just have a card to SB out.

If you have any actual, you know, tournament or testing success with Dread Returns I'd be curious to hear about it, as I would be glad to share my results to the contrary, rather hearing blanket claims about how I'm an idiot for not running an awful awful card. And you are correct this deck is a contender.

Benie Bederios

06-15-2007, 10:56 AM

Hello,

I just started to pick this deck up and I really like it. I want to start the discussion again, so first of all what is the advantage from manaless Ichorid over this one.

The first time I played against the manaless version I was surprised as it killed me turn 2( I was playing Blue based control) but after a while I found the deck fairly easy to beat, where I have alot of trouble beating Friggorid, especialy pre-board.

About this version I do have some Questions too get the discussion (hopefully) going.

1. How many land would you play? 13, 14 or 15? green mana or not?

2. Play acc. like Chrome Mox or Lotus Petal?

3. Wich Dredgers? and how much?

4. Wich and how many discard Outlets?

4. Bridge from Below, hot or not?

As for reference this is my list. It's not original, but it works.

Lands
3 Underground Sea
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
3 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Island
1 Swamp

Creatures
4 Ashen Ghoul
4 Ichorid
4 Psychatog
4 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Golgari Thug
2 Wonder

Spells
2 Deep Analysis
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
2 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below

SB is the same as Bovinious

Very brief card explanation( only relevant ones)

Psychatog, used them because Ichorid can eat them, and Thug can put him on top.

Breakthrough. Not a great fan of it, but it can fill your graveyard as hell.

13 lands never seems a problem.

BB

Bovinious

06-15-2007, 02:05 PM

To me the manaless version obviously seems faster, the only thing I don't like about it really needs a good hand or it can't do anything, Friggorid seems more stable in that more hands are keepable if you have land/cantrip and maybe no dredger. Manaless seems busted or bust, when its busted its busted, I'm actually going to be trying out manaless myself, but about Friggorid:

I play 15 land, which I actually think may not be enough because I've cut 2 chrome Mox from my list. To me you always want to be able to cast Zombie Infestation if you draw it, and you also always want an Island for Wonder and optimally multiple black sources for Ashen Ghouls. Obviously you dont need all these things each game but theyre good to have as often as possible.

Again, I like 2-3 Chrome mox mostly for turn 1 ZI or possibly double cantrip but I have recently cut them from my list.

I fluctuate between 9 and 10 dredgers, 4 GGT 4 Imp and 1-2 Thugs. I also play 2 Darkblast Sb for gobs but this can function as another dredger games 2-3 as well obviously.

For discard outlets I play Putrid Imp and Zombie Infestation. ZI is just the stone cold nuts vs pretty much any aggro deck I don't know why more people dont run it. Tog seems really slow to me, coming online turn 3 IF you even have the mana, to support Tog you would need more than 15-16 land. He is probably too slow anyways, beating turn 3-4 at the earliest.

Bridge From Below is hawt, free mans when ichorid dies or I use therapies, yes please.

Again some of these are personal preferences but I think basically ZI is too game winning in too many matches not to be in and Tog is just a tad too slow, and will often sit dead w/o 3 mana.