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Parcher
04-06-2006, 06:06 PM
This will be long.

I have now been testing this deck for several months, and have come to these conclusions:
1) It is a control deck, in Legacy.
2) It can compete with any deck in the format. There are no auto wins against it.
3) It is boring, draining, and pitfall laden. You would have to be some kind of masochist(or Elgin…he plays Wombat!) to bring it to a tournament.

With all this in mind, I am at heart, and in playskill, a control player. After searching the format for a true control deck, this is the closest that I have found. The set up is very much like Vintage Keeper. You ignore all but the most game ending plays your opponent makes until you get set up. There is then no real “finisher”, or “hard lock”. You win by maintaining a position wherein no play that your opponent makes can effectively win the game for them.

Sounds like fun? Read On!

The win condition at the heart of this deck is of course Solitary Confinement. With the proper setup, it gives you the same inevitability as Morphling, or Meloku. There are many decks sporting the Loam/Confinement engine throughout this format, and they all have the same problem. None of them bother with countermagic. Without it, any disruption, or mana denial you may have previously played can still be destroyed by one savage topdeck. I am not advocating a return to Draw-Go, but much like Keeper, it runs enough counters to maintain it’s position. The rest of the deck is dedicated to both starting, and maintaining the “lock”, While keeping you alive long enough to do so. If properly done, I have found that only dedicated hate, dedicated countermagic, or certain Combo decks can fight there way out of it. For those unfamiliar with it, the engine begins with the Squee/Confinement synergy. It is continued by recursing cycling lands with Life from the Loam, then using those same lands to draw both your deck, and Dredge LftL back to your hand. Wasteland can also be recurred against mulit-colored decks to stop their development, while Exploration maintains yours. Loam, and Scarab are kept safe from RFG effects by always keeping a cycling land, and a mana open to Dredge them Back.

0-0-4 Drop(U/G/w Loam Confinement)

2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
3 Lonely Sandbar
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Secluded Steppe
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Forest
2 Cephalid Colesium
3 Wasteland

2 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Grave-Shell Scarab

3 Intuition
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Forbid
4 Brainstorm
3 Life from the Loam
4 Exploration
4 Swords to Plowshares

This list varies somewhat to what Nassif played due to both my own extensive testing, and changes in the metagame.

2 Strand/2 Heath: I have reduced these both by one for several reasons. 1)The manabase is stable enough to not need more. 2) Opponents have less valid targets to Needle. 3) With Confinement out, or against heavy Aggro, or burn, the life loss can be the only way you can die.

2 Cephalid Colesium: I raised the count by one. The sole reason was time factors. Often, even while locked down, an Aggro deck could amass such a creature horde that Scarab could never break through. These allow you to deck your opponent that much faster. Also added insurance if one gets removed from game.

Cycling Lands: I know. I know. Six seems too few. But running a control deck gives me the luxury of Intuition, and this makes all the difference. I only need two to recurse at any one time, and having more in the graveyard once again makes you more vulnerable to removal.

2 Squee: The lock only needs one. I include a second for insurance, and to feed Forbid if needed in the late game.

Grave-Shell Scarab: Dodges all RFG effects, the only reason to include it over many better finishers.

Intuition: Doesn’t really need explanation, but I wanted to stress the utter dependence this deck has on it. Even more so than the much discussed Exploration. If you have Confinment in hand, can cast this, and untap, you should win most games.

2 Forbid: An unfortunate necessity. With the dredging this deck does, you can not always rely on getting countermagic no matter how many cards you draw. One of these in hand, in conjunction with the massive amounts of mana this deck can produce, turns almost any cards into counterspells.


The sideboard has gone through major changes since this deck last saw tournament play. Here is mine as it stands:

4 Meddling Mage
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Hail Storm
2 Ray of Distortion
2 Anurid Brushopper

Before I get to the matchups, I want to explain the changes. Massacre was a metagame choice by Nassif, assuming the only Goblins decks he would fear packed Plateaus. My issue with that is there is no way to hardcast Massacre otherwise. It also loses the surprise factor that an instant has. And if yu face a Goblins deck with Naturalize, you’re toast. Ray of Distortion seems like pure jank, I know. But this deck has to have some form of removal. That removal needs flashback if possible, to reduce the slots used if you Dredge it. And although Ray of Revelation is much better overall, Pithing Needle, Tormod’s Crypt(pre-Chalice), Winter Orb, and Sphere of Resistance are just a few artifacts that can hurt this deck very much. The speed at which this deck accumulates mana is enough to offset the difference in casting cost. Lastly, the Brushopper. No one is going to be surprised by the man-plan from this deck anymore. Vinelasher Kudzu, while chaep, and able to grow exponentially, will most often fall victim to removal. The only time you bring in the men, is when time restraints become a factor. Most opponents will be aware of this, and sideboard accordingly. The Brushopper give a large(ish) body at low cost. And with the manipulation this deck has, keeping him out of the graveyard is rarely an issue. Also, all sideboard guides are given regardless of time left. So often, you will need to bring Brushopper in a match instead of some other option, to win before time expires. Last thing, Hail storm was simply chosen for fitting the color, and mana curve, and doing a fine job at mass weenie removal.

Matchups: Though I have tested all of these enough to post win percentages, I will refrain from doing so, knowing the flamestorm it creates.

Threshold Pre-board: The color combinations are irrelevant. This is an almost even match. They do not have the speed to force the lock before you are ready, but they can stop it if you let them. Your best plan is to go for the Waste-lock, and try to spend your counters on Mongoose. They have no way of stopping Confinement once it hits, so do not drop it until you have no choice, or are fairly certain of forcing it though. Much like a combo deck, you need to be as patient as possible, and force them in the Aggro role, only reacting when you must.

Sideboarding:
+ 4 Chalice of the Void
+ 2 Ray of Distortion

- 4 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Forbid
-1 Brainstorm

Your main goal is always to get a Chalice set on one. Zero is also acceptable if you fear a Crypt coming down. The Rays come in, as an out if Needle or Crypt come down first. Swords is tough to remove, but lacks synergy with the main objective post-board, as does the one Brainstorm. With their lack of ability to remove Confinement, the Forbid will be less needed in the mid to late game.

Deadguy/Pikula Pre-board: Should be one of the easier matches. Their removal, and land destruction is mostly irrelevant against this deck. And with only one card you need to protect,(Confinement) your Brainstorms should give you enough to avoid discard. They are slow to develop, and you can also cripple their color base with Wasteland.

Sideboarding: None.

They bring in Needle, and if they run it, Withered Wretch. Needle is not enough to stop you own its own, so doesn’t merit boarding for. Wretch is the reason you don’t side out your StP’s for Chalice. Or you can just counter him. The most important thing is to be certain if they gain any kind of advantage, to kill Bob. Against a deck as slow as this one, he will maintain that advantage for them.

Rifter/Wombat Pre-board: Not much to say here. They have only delaying tactics main deck. Akroma’s Vengance is easily countered, if even run. They have tons of irrelevant removal, and tend to deck themselves.

Sideboarding:
+ 4 Meddling Mage
+2 Anurid Brushopper

-4 Swords to Plowshares
-2 Exploration

This is a huge swing post-board. 4 Disenchants come in, along with Orim’s Chant. The combination of these, along with Abeyance makes it very difficult to keep Confinement on the board. Chalice slows the game down, with no guarantees. Ray can only remove Lightning Rift. But the main problem becomes time. I usually have to go with the man-plan, and hope. They will still have enough removal to kill your Mage, but he can force them to use it on him. You will want to name Disenchant if you can drop a Confinement, and StP if you can’t.This may allow your other beaters to do some damage. Their deck is slow enough that losing the two Explorations is rarely an issue. Basically, win game one. And pray they don’t concede.

Solidarity Pre-board: Your countermagic is not enough. You can’t put any pressure on them. You have no other disruption. That’s the bad part. The good part is you have basically the same fundamental turn, and if Confinement hits, you only have to counter Cunning Wish afterwards. It really becomes a race to who can “go off” first. Both sides have equal disruption. Unfortunately, if you tap out at any time, while maintaining the lock, they can end the game right there. Exploration is to be squandered into unless you have the complete nuts in your opening hand. An unfavorable matchup.

Sideboarding:
+4 Meddling Mage
+4 Chalice of the Void

-4 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Grave-Shell Scarab
-1 Squee
-1 Wasteland
-1 Life from the Loam

The sideboard guide here may seem a little sketchy as far as what is removed. What is added is what turns this match around. Chalice for one hurts them badly, and Mage naming Wish cripples them. You must now play as defensively as possible. They tend to deck themselves, so get a Mage, or Chalice as early as you can, then do nothing. Only even cycle when you have plenty of mana up. You are even then probably only going to earn a draw out of this match, and if your opponent realizes this, you’ll have to concede the first game to keep them from going infinite, and burning the clock. While I feel you gain the advantage post board, the overall match is not so due to the overwhelming advantage they have game one. (Good thing only David Gearhart can play that deck, tee-hee.)

Angel Stompy Pre-board: One of your other highly favorable matches. Most run no main deck enchantment removal. They are relatively slow on their offense. They have a decent amount of dead removal spells. Play your normal game against them, and you should win.

Sideboarding:
+3 Hail Storm
+2 Ray of Distortion

-3 Intuition
-1 Grave-Shell Scarab
-1 Exploration

They will bring in Crypt, and Armageddon. Unfortunately, they will probably be on the play. This makes bringing in Chalice a highly questionable decision, as you mainly want it to stop Crypt. Those I have brought in should be obvious, but not the ones I removed. With few ways to stop Crypt, I have to minimize it’s effects. This means switching plans. Adding the extra removal gives me enough time to assemble all the needed pieces without Intuition. But mainly, it dumps to much that I might need in the yard, before I can remove a Crypt. Throwing Ray in the yard with Intuition is too late, as they can remove the rest in response. The match becomes much more even post-board, but I usually feel this deck is slightly favored.

Goblins Pre-board: Before boarding, all of these decks a played basically the same. They can easily outrace you, but concede once Confinement hits. This is another match where Exploration in your opening hand is extremely important. If you don’t need the mana, counter anything you can in the first three turns. You won’t need them later. A lot of luck is involved as to who gets the coin flip, and better draw. I would have to give a slight disadvantage to the Goblins deck, but that can be erased in a moment by the penultimate “Goblins Nutz Draw”™.

Sideboarding: This is one where it depends what flavor of the deck you opponent is playing.
Mono Red
+3 Hail Storm

-1 Grave-Shell Scarab
-1 Life from the Loam
-1 Wasteland

The only things they can bring are Anarchy and REB, most Goblin players don’t run Tormod’’s Crypt. You will have to watch for the Anarchy, but once Confinement is in play, it’s the only thing you have to counter. Just save extra mana for countering the Blasts.

Red/White, Red/Green
+4 Meddling Mage

-1 Squee
-1 Grave-Shell Scarab
-2 Counterspell

You hope they ditched Gempalm, and want to drop a Mage on turn two,(naming Disenchant, or Naturalize). This limits the need for a turn two counter. He can of course, chump block in a pinch, and be re-cast later. Chalice for two is better, but negates Loam. If they bring a large supply of Blasts as well, prepare for a short game. This configuration, post-board, is possibly your worst matchup. But, as said before, is highly draw dependant, which can go either way.

I need to stress that the previous sideboarding is only a guide. Time constraints are paramount when playing this deck, and you have to adjust accordingly. The many variants on these, and other decks in this vast format should also cause you to alter your board, and plan to fit them.

I firmly believe that this deck is a contender. It takes loads of patience, a meticulous nature, and a willingness to be hated by all opponents you play; But once mastered, the rewards are readily apparent.

Thank you for your time.

Rambo
04-06-2006, 08:27 PM
@parcher: thanks for having the guts to post this deck
Anyway, wouldn't mox diamond be really good as well? I mean you can get the land you pitch off loam. Maybe a couple, what do you think?

Parcher
04-06-2006, 11:37 PM
@Rambo: Thanks. I am suprised someone other than myself sees it that way.
Maybe because it's so different than anything else in the format. Or more likely because control decks have been driven out almost completely by the dominant Aggro, no one wants to touch it. The thing that concerns me is so few have given it more than a cursory attempt. That's fine. Less prepared players helps, as I plan to run this puppy.

As far as Moxen, while the deck could run them, I see no reason to. Exploration gives better, more consistant acceleration, and is actually neccasary for the Waste-lock. It would be good in addition, but the slots in this deck are unbeliveably tight. I could only publish the above primer after massive testing, tweaking each card and land. And it's still not set. I fear I lack the creativity to improve it further, though my play of it keeps getting better.

Rambo
04-07-2006, 10:45 AM
Whats the point of the brushhoppers? They cant break through more than the scarabs, so it would seem like pithing needle would be a better choice to futher help race combo like belcher, and protect you against crypt. What to you think?

Nightmare
04-07-2006, 11:24 AM
Solidarity Sideboarding:
+4 Meddling Mage
...
-1 Grave-Shell Scarab

Angel Stompy Sideboarding:
+3 Hail Storm
+2 Ray of Distortion
...
-1 Grave-Shell Scarab

Goblins Sideboarding:

+3 Hail Storm
...
-1 Grave-Shell Scarab

Red/White, Red/Green
+4 Meddling Mage
...
-1 Grave-Shell Scarab

This worries me. You're basically saying, if you don't win game 1, you will lose every round. In each of these matchups, you're siding out ALL of your win conditions (That's right, all 1 of them). Say Goblins leaves Incinerator in. Or they Lackey/Vial in Siege Gang. You LOSE. How can you expect to NOT draw (at best) every round, when your only reliable source of victory is your opponent running out of cards first? This is especially important since in most cases, you also side out a Squee! How does this deck win post-board?

Rambo
04-07-2006, 12:11 PM
Cephalid colisium to deck your opponent is a fine win condition, as long as they dont pithing needle it. You can keep returning it with loam and playing it with exploration.

Nightmare
04-07-2006, 12:26 PM
Cephalid colisium to deck your opponent is a fine win condition, as long as they dont pithing needle it. You can keep returning it with loam and playing it with exploration.I disagree. Giving your opponent 3 cards at a time is no way to win a game. This basically gives them a butt-ton of cards to work with to find an answer to whatever it is you're doing. It's an entirely different matter than say, Stroking them out, because with that, they either have an answer or die, there's no window for them to find an out. Even with 4 explorations on the table, you can get them to draw a max of 18 cards in a turn, and that's a lot of cards for them to untap with.

Rambo
04-07-2006, 12:35 PM
Well, grave shell scarab isn't much better. They could sit their all day and chump him, and you would most likely be decked. Your right though that we need to find another win condition. Morphling? I dont know.

john mathias
04-07-2006, 01:57 PM
Barbarian Ring?

fearphage
04-07-2006, 02:05 PM
I disagree. Giving your opponent 3 cards at a time is no way to win a game. This basically gives them a butt-ton of cards to work with to find an answer to whatever it is you're doing. It's an entirely different matter than say, Stroking them out, because with that, they either have an answer or die, there's no window for them to find an out. Even with 4 explorations on the table, you can get them to draw a max of 18 cards in a turn, and that's a lot of cards for them to untap with.
Please read Cephalid Coliseum (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=Cephalid_Coliseum). They draw three right before they discard three. Their hand size does not change. Sure they see more cards but unless they find needle and/or a disenchant effects in multiples, it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

I like the utility of the lands in the deck. I would like to see more anti aggro lands.

Nightmare
04-07-2006, 02:30 PM
Please read Cephalid Coliseum (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=Cephalid_Coliseum). They draw three right before they discard three. Their hand size does not change. Sure they see more cards but unless they find needle and/or a disenchant effects in multiples, it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

I like the utility of the lands in the deck. I would like to see more anti aggro lands.Yeah, well, thats a good point. Stupid always forgetting about that part. RTFC. Still, it seems like a better win condition should be available. Barbarian Ring is in the wrong color. As for Anti-Aggro, Glacial Chasm is completely underrated, and Tabernacle is crazy good.

Atwa
04-07-2006, 03:03 PM
Still, Colloseum lets you dig trough your library, maybe not gaining card advantage, but it lets your opponent search for an answer (he is not going to discard his answers).

I believe there must be a better win condition other than milling your opponent. Maybe Barbarian Ring or something. I am also not too fond on Scarab. Yeah, sure he enables dredge and he is hard to kill, but I'm convinced there must be a better way.

Don't get me wrong, I like the deck and the way it plays, just try to find another wincondiction.

Rambo
04-07-2006, 03:11 PM
Blinkmoth nexus? He's a flier that can be returned with loam. I dont know.

subway-guy
04-07-2006, 03:41 PM
i have seen a better version of this deck at a tournament and ran a man land beat down and instead of intuition giftsand a alot of recursion like 10 and it had a way better board as he only had to board in like 1-3 cards.

This post is incoherent. Further incoherencies will receive a warning.

-PR

tpnp
04-07-2006, 04:49 PM
I have seen a better version of this deck at a tournament that I played in. It ran man lands for beat down and instead of Intuition it ran Gifts. Along with that it had a alot of recursion, like around 10 cards and it had a way better board since he only had to board in like 1-3 cards each game.
There, fixed it to something that resembles the american english language.

Parcher
04-07-2006, 06:01 PM
Wow, I wish I'd gotten online sooner; But I'm happy for the response.

Anyway:

@Nightmare: Yes, an unfortunate result with this deck is against everyone but Thresh, and Solidarity, you have a much larger advantage in the first game. This does not mean you lose afterwards, however. While stall tactics may be distateful, it is quite easy to get an 1-0-1 win if your opponent concedes the first game. You don't need win conditions if you are 1-0 in the match. Except when you do. This is when I suggest keeping the creatures in. Against most aggro decks, your win percentage in the first game is greater than I would even attempt to get people to believe. Hell, the reason Ruel called the deck, "0-0-4 Drop" is if your opponent doesn't conceed the first game, it is really easy to run 40 minutes decking them without Coliseum,(he only ran one)then have them kill you in the next 5 minutes+turns.

@atwa: Coliseum rarely gives you opponent any kind of advantage. Most often, they nearly empty their hand, knowing what is coming. They either try to kill you, or stop the lock before you get it. With two cards in hand, drawing, then discarding three will never match what I hold in card advantage. And by the way, I can't use it on myself once Confinement hits.

@Rambo: I chose Brushopper for it's cost, and survivability. As I said, if you do lose game one, they KNOW you have to try to win in time. Man-lands are too small, and to easily killed by the removal they keep in for just that purpose. I'm sure there is something better in his place, but to be honest, playing without time limits has not forced me to fully explore this avenue yet.

I have tried Gifts, and bluntly, Intuition works better. The extra mana is an issue, but the main point is YOU DON'T WANT to have two different cards in hand. Every Intuition is for two cycling lands and Squee, or LftL. They end up in your hand anyway. And if you have to get three counterspells, or Confinement, you're screwed. Barbarian Ring has not been tried by me, but I am really afraid to mess with the colors. They don't have problems, and I'm not sure it would be worth opening the deck up to more issues.

The one thing I need to investigate is the idea of more defensive lands. I often have cyclers, and LftL, but know I can't keep a Confinement on board. This seems to be perfect for the mentioned Glacial Chasm. Tabernacle would also be great against any Wasteland-able deck. I will see if, and where these could be fit in. Thanks to everyone for their help.

Rambo
04-09-2006, 07:41 PM
I think a tabernicle would fit in for a tropical island. If you are running tabernicle, how about crop rotation?

Parcher
04-09-2006, 09:53 PM
The change has already been made. It has worked well so far, but with little testing. The major change made was to remove the Scarab, the Island, and a Wasteland for three Nantuko Monastery. Should really help with time constraints. The sideboard is revolving with this change, but no clear results to post yet. There are several new cards I'm trying. Elephant Grass vs. Aggro, and Gaea's Blessing against control decks. Grass is obvious, and Blessing not only keeps me from decking due to LftL, it also allows me to recurse countermagic in the long control matches.

EDIT: I was unclear when responding to Rambo. The Tabernacle actually replaced the Scrubland, not a Tropical since there is no longer a need for black mana.

Rood
04-10-2006, 12:37 AM
I would like to point out that this deck has an extremely good matchup vs. alot of top tier decks after test playing with Parcher. It seems to me like it's evolving into the next form of control possible.

Bane of the Living
04-10-2006, 07:16 PM
The problem I have with this deck is its inability to finish games. While its lock is powerful, and quite consistant, Ill often set up lock and be waiting far too many turns to win the game. Only some opponents scoop, knowing you still need to kill them somehow, and often in games 2 and 3 my opponent will find a way to deal with confinement and get through counterspells. Usually a disenchant effect backed by their own counters. I like Scarab but he's so slow. What about Zombie Infestation as a win condition? It provides great early game against gobs and others, and late game turns insane with LftL and Squee.

Rambo
04-10-2006, 07:25 PM
Zombie infestation sounds pretty good, but what to take out?? Nantuko monastary?

Parcher
04-10-2006, 08:34 PM
Monastery is the new addition that solves the previous problems I think Bane is referring to. It is fast enough for this deck to use as an efficient win condition. It is big enough to smash through any blockers that aren't Plowed, or countered. It can be recurred with LftL. And it even dodges Plow if you are smart with your Wastelands. ZI fills these needs save one. You will never have enough tokens to swarm your opponent,(unless you would win regardless) and with no mass removal, you can't count on them not getting enough blockers. Two Silver knights alone would end you. Not to mention any two creatures from Thresh, or the Goblin Hordes.

The main deck seems pretty set to me right now, with some minor tweaking needed on the lands. I will re-post both the revised sideboard, and a real guide,(not the men or no-men I listed previously) once I have tested it more broadly.

Last thing, Coliseum is a real win condition, and in multiples, one that can even deck Turboland, or Life.dec. It's just butt slow.

No_Life_No_Future
04-18-2006, 05:19 PM
Is it possible to replace the confinement lock with a Glacial Chasm one?

Adding crop rotation would also make glacial chasm lock better as it would be a good way to deal with a suprise wasteland.

With loam and exploration it would be possible to maintain a lock so that combat damage would never be able to kill you. I know that its not as good as a confinment lock but it could make the mana base more stable by taking white out of the deck.

Also if lands are used for the kill could it be worth adding Teferi's Response?

Parcher
04-19-2006, 11:53 AM
Is it possible to replace the confinement lock with a Glacial Chasm one?

In a word, no.

While with Exploration, and the LftL engine, it would seem viable, as you have rightly surmised, Wasteland negates this. The addition of Crop Rotation would help greatly with this issue but for one thing. Confinement stops much more than combat damage.

It stops Burn cold. It stops most discard, including the dreaded Haunting Echoes. It stops most combo decks if played in time, as they have to target you at some point to win. It even stops this deck's foil; Tormod's Crypt. I don't think any card can replace it for protection, and consistancy.

Having said this, here is the latest version:

2 Squee, Goblin Nabob

3 Intuition
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Forbid
4 Brainstorm

3 Solitary Confinement
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Exploration
3 Life from the Loam

4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
3 Lonely Sandbar
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Secluded Steppe
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wasteland
3 Nantuko Monastery
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

And the Sideboard:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Annul
4 Meddling Mage
1 Intuition
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Krosan Reclamation

The change in the board is large, and this has come from exhaustive testing.
The extra Intuition and Confinement were suggested by Ray D. Since I already have such a good match against Aggro, he correctly thought to just insure the deck's original plan, instead of wasting more slots on worse cards.

The Annuls may be exchanged for Needle at some point, depending on the Meta. Right now, they seem needed against the worse matchups. The lone Reclamation is there only to regain needed cards in matches that I will be required to mill a grest deal.

Below you will find an updated sideboard guide, including some information on previously untested matchups. The decks are listed from what I feel are the easiest, to the hardest matches.

B/W Pikula:
- 2 Swords to Plowshares
- 1 The Tabenacle at Pendrell Vale
+ 1 Intuition
+ 1 Solitary Confinement
+ 1 Krosan Reclamation

Goblins(any):
- 1 Wasteland
- 1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
+ 1 Intuition
+ 1 Solitary Confinement

Angel Stompy:
- 4 Exploration
- 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
+ 1 Solitary Confinement
+ 4 Annul

Rifter:
- 4 Swords to Plowshares
- 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
+ 4 Annul
+ 1 Krosan Reclamation

Psychatog(any):
- 1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
- 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
- 2 Forbid
- 1 Brainstorm
+ 4 Meddling Mage
+ 1 Krosan Reclamation

Survival of the Fittest(any):
- 1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
- 4 Exploration
+ 4 Annul
+ 1 Krosan Reclamation (in case they rawdog Genesis)

Belcher:
- 4 Swords to Plowshares
- 1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
- 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
- 1 Life from the Loam
- 1 Nantuko Monastery
+ 4 Annul
+ 4 Medling Mage

Solidarity:
- 4 Swords to Plowshares
- 1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
- 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
- 1 Wasteland
- 1 Exploration
+ 4 Meddling Mage
+ 4 Chalice of the Void

Threshold(U/G/w mainly)
- 4 Exploration
- 4 Brainstorm
+ 4 Chalice of the Void
+ 4 Annul

I know this seems odd. But here is the issue. Chalice cripples Thresh. Crypt cripples me. Annul stops Crypt, even against Thresh, as does Chalice. Chalice stops Annul.

Unfortunately, Crypt is my biggest fear from them. I have to have some one costed spells, and both Annul, and StP seem better then the unneeded Exploration. Brainstorm is generically good, but I need more power if I can't get a Chalice down.

Solitaire:
- 4 Swords to Plowshares
- 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
- 1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
- 1 Nantuko Monastery
- 2 Life from the Loam
+ 4 Annul
+ 4 Meddling Mage
+ 1 Krosan Reclamation

This one is last for a reason. Pre-board it's about 25%/75%. Post board it gets about 15% better. Don't expect too much form this matchup.

Sorry to be so long. This deck in my opinion, is the best control in the format right now. I am an avid supporter of it, and feel it deserves it's shot against the top tiers.

Bane of the Living
04-19-2006, 05:09 PM
So I take it Nantuko Monastary is holding up as a good win condition? Are you missing the Grave Shell Scarab?

Parcher
04-19-2006, 10:45 PM
The Monastery has proven satisfactory as a win condition. While in this deck it is rarely fast, it is consistant. It also gives you many more options, which mostly translate to difficult decisions for your opponent. Decking still is the most reliable win condition.

The only thing I miss about Scarab is it's low Dredge count with the ability to draw cards.

Rambo
04-30-2006, 09:18 PM
Has anyone seen the card psychic possesion? It looks like it might have a home in this deck.

URABAHN
04-30-2006, 09:53 PM
A cheaper Mind's Eye with no cost to pay? That would rock in this deck. What would you cut, though?

adrieng
05-01-2006, 05:34 AM
i think nantuko monastery is a good win condition but what do you do if they needle it you have no way of removing needle
turn one needle nantuko gg?

Parcher
05-01-2006, 10:38 AM
i think nantuko monastery is a good win condition but what do you do if they needle it you have no way of removing needle
turn one needle nantuko gg?

You are correct, however this point has been fixed. Here is my current list:

1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

4 Intuition
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Forbid

3 Solitary Confinement
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Exploration
3 Life from the Loam

3 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
3 Lonely Sandbar
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Secluded Steppe
3 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Wasteland
2 Nantuko Monastery
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Cephalid Colesium
3 Mishra's Factory

The factories are credited to Ray D. They not only avoid the singular win condition,(although decking is always a secondary win) but help in the early game against aggro, making it even easier. They also help versus control, as either early pressure, or a recurring, uncounterable threat in addition to Monastery. The added fetch, and basic land were added to help against nonbasic hate which still occasionally pops up. And the added Intutuion switched places with Tabernacle in the sideboard. This deck already has a great game one against Aggro, and the fourth Intuition gives better overall consistancy.

Psychic Posession seems tailor made for this deck, but as URBAHN said, where to put it? Consistancy in the opening game is the key to playing this deck successfully, and changing anything after we've worked so hard to fix this worries me. It would obviously wreck control, and some combo, but it would definately be sideboard materiel. Either as a replacement for Pikula, or Chalice. Obviously, the casting cost would be an issue. Chalice(effectively) and Meddling Mage cost two less. Against countermagic, or a combo-clock, that just seems too risky. Definately worth testing though.

Morim_Brightsmoke
05-22-2006, 05:05 PM
There was a little discussion about more traditional finishers in this deck but the idea of man lands seemed to stick. I was wondering about the inclusion of the old Blue control lists finishers/control elements in Masticore and 'Phling both of these could be useful. Does anyone else think this might be a good way to go?

Bane of the Living
05-22-2006, 05:25 PM
Why dont you guys play with Grave Shell Scarab like Nassif and Ruel did. Its the hardest creature to kill in the format, and loam digs for it. Man lands are good and all but I dont see factories fighting through your opponents army to deal them much damage.

Parcher
05-22-2006, 07:03 PM
Why dont you guys play with Grave Shell Scarab like Nassif and Ruel did. Its the hardest creature to kill in the format, and loam digs for it. Man lands are good and all but I dont see factories fighting through your opponents army to deal them much damage.


Ah, Bane. You are correct again, though not for the reasons you listed. Mishra's were fine for attacking when you had more than one active. Unfortunately they screwed up the color-base too much to keep. The following changes have been made from the above list.

-3 Mishra's Factory
-1 Life from the Loam

+ 1 Plains
+ 1 Tropical Island
+ 1 Faerie Conclave
+ 1 Grave-Shell Scarab/Gigapede


Obviously a Scrubland will come in with Scarab. The Conclave lets you attack through most blockers, and over Moat. The only deck with enough large flyers to avoid both counters, and Plow is Faerie Stompy, and I just drop Confinement against them and let Serendib win for me. I am as yet undecided on the single creature. Ghost's Gigapede has the nod at the moment due to color issues, and that unlike Scarab, he is actually large enough to kill most any blocker. He will cost card advantage though, and can be removed from the 'yard. I think this will end up being a meta decision.

I have also replaced the 4 Annuls with 2 Disenchant, and 2 Dismantling Blow. The reason for the difference between them is actually Chalice for two, which is a nightmare. The only match that Annuls were better in was Survival, and simply learning to play against it correctly with this deck has made the matchup winnable without the Annuls.

@Morim: There is too much in this format that can deal with Masticore, and discarding two a turn, with no draw phase seems difficult. Morphling would work fine, except that I would need too many slots to run it, as it most likely will get milled at some point.

Rastadon
05-22-2006, 10:41 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, isn't Psychic Possession a loophole around Solidarity if they don't cast meditate? They'd be drawing cards and going crazy, you'd be drawing cards and going crazy but they'll eventually deck you.

dahcmai
05-23-2006, 11:09 AM
This reminds me of an older deck that's not really similar but does offer a kill condition a lil bit better. Give Nether Spirit a try. You have the counters to stop swords and yard hate so it's not a bad choice. It just remains to be tested. Squee will automatically get out of his way so why not?

You don't even need the black mana, just ditch him to forbid somewhere along the line.

Parcher
05-23-2006, 11:47 AM
Nether Spirit would absolutely run well in this deck. The main issue with using it would be his size. Decks successful with him in the past either ran more hard counters, more creature removal, and even bounce(Nether-Go) to let him through; or they ran 'Haups/Obliterate to clear the way.

With only four Plows, and countermagic that must be used elsewhere, I don't think he could smash through any kind of blocking force. Plus, Plow kicks Nether Spirit in the gnads.

Morim_Brightsmoke
05-23-2006, 04:58 PM
Wow i had an interesting thought, if we want a "better" kill condition that can't normally get back to play from the graveyard, what about the inclusion of genesis, though that might be to many slots for to little effect. I was thinking like 2x Genesis and 2x Morphling.

dahcmai
05-23-2006, 05:26 PM
Here's a thought, kind of silly but it actually has synergy with the rest of the deck. Anurid Brushopper. You already have half the deck dedicated to discarding and getting back, why not your kill card do the same thing? Plus he's more resistant to STP. You already have the manabase also so no change there. It's a thought.

Morim_Brightsmoke
05-23-2006, 08:03 PM
The original deck list on here has them sideboard and i agree they are good accept that they can't come back from the yard. Again, Genesis might help if they get dredged away, however if Shambling shell can't get through neither can Brushhopper.

Parcher
05-24-2006, 10:41 AM
The original deck list on here has them sideboard and i agree they are good accept that they can't come back from the yard. Again, Genesis might help if they get dredged away, however if Shambling shell can't get through neither can Brushhopper.

Agreed. I cut Brushopper because he was too small more than his removability. With three, Dredging wasn't a problem, as he never hit the 'yard once in play.

The Genesis+Morphling idea has merit, although I would only run it as 1/1. The issues them become: 1) Cutting an additional card. 2) Severe mana problems. I actually think this combo would be the best for this deck if it weren't for the mana drain. I have to basically cast nothing on my turn except LftL once the lock is set. I need mana on their turn to both cycle, and cast counterspells. If I recurse Morphling, that's three, so obviously I can't cast until next turn. Then I have to spend five to cast him, plus keep at least two additional blue open to stop the previously dead kill spells they have been holding. That's four blue in a turn, plus I need more to counter, which to be honest, I won't have usually.

Gig/Scarab don't require any blue mana. They both recurse on their own. Morphling can fly. That's his only real advantage once Confinement hits, as I don't know if I can always protect him from StP. He is a much better finisher(otherwise I wouldn't have put this much thought into it), but I think I probably will need to stay with creatures that are more reliable without the constant blue mana investment. Even one second where I can't counter can spell doom vs. any instant speed enchantment removal.

Morim_Brightsmoke
05-24-2006, 01:03 PM
Is it then possible if morphling won't work out that we can find another better finisher (one must exist) and use Genesis with it. What about Blastoderm, Kodama of the North Tree, or Giant Solifuge? Sorry I am just throwing out these random ideas, but I think this deck is being held back primarily by a lack of good finisher.


Also, to take this in a totally different direction what about belcher as a kill condition. By the time you get around to killing you don't usually have to many lands in the deck and this can do a heck of a lot of damage.

Bane of the Living
05-24-2006, 04:45 PM
Theres actually nothing wrong with just one Scarab guys. Honestly.. What can he not attack through? A Mystic Enforcer I guess.

In my opinion if you want a loam deck that kills faster than confinement then you should be playing Land Ho. Go check that thread out for some sick tricks. Im quite giddy about loam decks and I do chose that one for its rediculous Devestating Dreams plays. That card crushes so many decks. Didnt you know they reprinted Wildfire at 2cc?

Parcher
05-25-2006, 10:37 AM
Theres actually nothing wrong with just one Scarab guys. Honestly.. What can he not attack through? A Mystic Enforcer I guess.

In my opinion if you want a loam deck that kills faster than confinement then you should be playing Land Ho. Go check that thread out for some sick tricks. Im quite giddy about loam decks and I do chose that one for its rediculous Devestating Dreams plays. That card crushes so many decks. Didnt you know they reprinted Wildfire at 2cc?

I have gently trying to press this point home for the last few posts. Although I don't believe anyone was looking for a faster creature, just a larger, more efficient one.

And Devastating Dreams grabs it's ankles against countermagic, especially Land Ho, as it runs no disruption other than maybe a couple of Cabal Therapies.

Bane of the Living
05-25-2006, 06:40 PM
Against counter magic you go with your 4 therapy 4 witness plan and force through your assault and dreams. Its easier than you think. My testing has amazing results against White Thresh even with maindeck Meddling Mages.

Morim_Brightsmoke
05-26-2006, 11:30 AM
Theres actually nothing wrong with just one Scarab guys. Honestly.. What can he not attack through? A Mystic Enforcer I guess.


As far as not attacking through, i think we are considered with his lack of evasion so if they have a regenerating or pro-black/ble creature he does nothing for ever and if they just have a lot of creatures he sits on the table killing one per turn and that is why the deck goes 0-0-4. :)

Bane of the Living
05-26-2006, 01:14 PM
As far as not attacking through, i think we are considered with his lack of evasion so if they have a regenerating or pro-black/ble creature he does nothing for ever and if they just have a lot of creatures he sits on the table killing one per turn and that is why the deck goes 0-0-4. :)


4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Forbid
4 Swords to Plowshares

You have 14 cards to help you stop them from casting their White Knights and Spiritmongers, or whatever it is you cant kill with Scarab.

diffy
10-02-2006, 11:57 AM
Sry for double post, but the browser wouldn't let me edit my 1st one

Hey,

First of all, my decklist:

///Maindeck

//The Mana

1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Faerie Conclave
2 Nantuko Monastery
1 Wasteland

2 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath

1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Savannah
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra

3 Lonely Sandbar
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Secluded Steppe

//The Engine Components

2 Squee, Goblin Nabob
3 Life from the Loam
3 Solitary Confinement

//Draw Smoothening

4 Brainstorm
3 Intuition

//No, Sir!

4 Counterspell
2 Forbid
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

//Crazy Acceleration

4 Exploration

///Sideboard

3 Chalice of the Void
3 Hail Storm
3 Meddling Mage
2 Ray of Distortion
1 Tivadar's Crusade
3 Pithing Needle

Lands: 27, Spells: 31, Crt: 2


I’m a former Landstill player and have switched to this archetype and I must say that I am completely amazed by the deck… but unfortunately I am still unsure how to play the deck and would like to hear some advice from the more experienced players:
--How do you people play your Intuitions when you have your life drawing engine working but milled one confinement, in general, how do you set your intuitions when one of your key cards has been milled?
--What do you think of the SB needles which would help a lot against most of the archetypes post-board and against crypt?
--Would you recommend this deck for a Meta consisting in mostly Angel Stompy, Grow, Random Agro, Solidarity and Goblins?

I really think that this deck can be a strong contender in Legacy, with maybe a little more work/input

Keep on the posting

Parcher
10-02-2006, 03:01 PM
Hookay. The reason that this deck is not played is that it is not currently tournament viable.

Calm down. Yes I am the biggest proponent of this deck, and have probably played more games with it than anyone. I honestly believe that with a proper sideboard it can beat any deck in the format.

The problem is at tournaments.

I have tried virtually every concievable combination possible with this deck, and come to one conclusion. It cannot keep it's shell, consistancy, flexibility, and win percentages, and still finish more than 60% of it's matches in under 50 minutes. Period. Even with a faster kill condition, the constant milling, searching, cycling, shuffling etc. eat up an enormous amount of game time every single turn(or you are losing anyway).

To answer your more direct questions, I first have to comment on your build. I have found that more than four cycling lands is unneeded. I would replace them with basic Islands. This deck has to get to three mana before it can afford to get disrupted.

My only changes would be replace one Squee with the fourth Intuition. The deck doesn't have enough draw to guarantee a third turn one against Aggro, and a Control deck will always try to counter them. I have also replaced Forbid with Foil, but that is due to the amont of fast-aggro and Combo in my meta. Pitching two lands, or a land and Squee/LftL is something this deck can live with. The Grave-Shell is a meta choice. I always felt more comfortable with it just in case somone forced through a Crucible or a Back to Basics in game one.

I have added one main deck Krosan Reclamation. This is how I deal with the milling situation. Even if you mill it, you can still Intuition for the third card later. I usually end up recurring Foil or Swords if I don't need it otherwise, and then leave it in the 'yard just in case. It can also be an emergency savior against graveyard removal if needed.

The Needles are a good idea, but too slow I think. I couldn't spare the room in the board; This deck has to have removal, not just a stop-gap. Crypt is nowhere near the threat that permanent problems like Smokestack, Genesis, Crucible etc. are. I run three Serenity in their place, but that's just in my meta. In yours, it seems a fine choice. Regarding that, I think the deck should do well in your meta. Solidarity is unwinnable game one, but the sideboard should address that. AS is easy. Thresh you just wait until the last second to force through a Confinement, and they scoop. Goblins you absolutely have to mulligan into a hand with either Intuition and the mana to cast it, or Life from the Loam and Exploration. Anything else will be too slow.

I would find somewhere in your board for Vinelasher Kudzu without a doubt. It is almost a guarantee to be at least 5/5 by the time he attacks, and the added clock is imperative against Combo. I board out the whole Confinement engine for him and Pikula. He also puts Aggro to a difficult decision. As he is easily protected from burn, they either have to leave in potentially usless creature removal, or bring in their disenchant effects, and worry about getting smashed.

M.Maddox
10-02-2006, 04:02 PM
What about one or two Decree of Justice? You previously stated you tend to have a lot of land out. Could possibly be a good late game finisher...

Parcher
10-02-2006, 04:30 PM
Actually this deck rarely has more than 7-8 lands out at a time. It just doesn't run that many actual playable, mana-producing lands. The reason Kudzu gets so big is from Fetchlands, Wasting the land you got, then doing it again.

Decree is not as hot, even for six, because this deck runs almost no removal. Five or six 1/1 dudes running into 4/4 Werebears or 4,256 Goblins just doesn't help much without Wrath effects to set it up; And this deck has no space for them. Obviously they would be too slow against Combo as well. And I've tried adding Wonder to make conditions like this viable. One or two(I don't run any, by the time it is good, you can't use it) Coliseums is not enough to support it.

Bane of the Living
10-04-2006, 08:18 PM
Here's the list I played this Sunday at Dragons Lair.

mana 28
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
2 Plains
4 Tranquil Thicket
3 Secludded Steppe
1 Maze of Ith
1 Nomad Stadium
3 Wasteland
2 Nantuko Monastary
3 Mishras Factory

4 Exploration
4 Life from the Loam
3 Crop Rotation
3 Living Wish

2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Solitary Confinement
3 Humility
1 Seal of Cleansing
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Sterling Grove
2 Crucible of Worlds

SB
1 City of Brass
1 Wasteland
1 Mishras Factory
1 Nantuko Monastary
1 Eternal Witness
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Squee
3 Defense Grid
4 Vinelasher Kudzu

Round 1 W/U Angel Stompy; Tivadar

Eric and I roll our eyes after hearing round one pairings but sit down to get things going. I think he played first, opening with Mother of Runes. Then I play Exploration, 2nd land. Turn 2 he plays a knight. I play a turn 2 Humility. After getting Confinement lock 2-3 turns later he scoops.

Game 2 he gets a slow start, I get Exploration going, Humility gets out. He beats me down for a few turns. I never drew into Loam for the 2 Confinements in hand.

Game 3 I get the nuts ending my turn 2 with 2 Explorations in play, 5 lands, and Crucible. Leaving me with a fetchland in yard, wastelock, and a factory. The game goes alittle longer but my crazy start wins the game fast. He has swords for my men but I wasteland my own creatures to keep them immortal.

Round 2 3c Angel Stompy; Lego Army Man
Lego man opens with slow games each time. I remember him dropping a Jitte that I needed to tutor a seal for. I dredge an early Humility then Wish for a witness to replay it. I win a long long game easily from there.

He begs me for a draw but I tell him Ill meet him in top 4. He boards in like 12 cards for me which is very flattering. I had control of game 2 the whole time, an early Maze of Ith keeps his one Jitte equipped guy off bay while we have a healthy stalemate. We end up going to time after he resolves a suspiciously well drawn Armageddon. I still have confinement lock up and he cant take me down before 5 turns. I am immortal.

Round 3 R/w Goblins
This dude sounds alot like Norm Mcdonald. Game one I get out a very easy turn 2 Confinement lock with squee, my lock didnt have any card draw for me ( no cycle lands and lftl ) I just figured he'd scoop but he informs me he maindecks Disenchant. After seeing him ringleader one away I believe him, let my lock go down, and lose after not being able to restore the game.

Game 2 went somewhat the same. I got 2 Sterling Groves out and my Humility but cant keep Confinement up thanks to Tormods Crypt. I snapped back my first loam with a cycle land but I think he drew into another one.

Round 4 Dark Affinity; SillyMetalGAT
We decide to play it out. I dont remember the game well but he wasnt fast enough against Humility 2 of the games. He took game 2 with plating. Confinement ftw.

Round 5 R/w Goblins
This is the other guy playing goblins. I play early Humility game 1 but he still swarms me. I cant draw Loam for my Confinements in hand game 2, he kills me quickly with 3 Fanatics and Price of Progress. OUCH!

I take third place and bring home a couple Flooded Strands. Not bad. I went to time only once but I played to the end of the round almost each time. The deck is a blast to play because man lands are the shit with Humility. Thats one of those cards very few people wanna see, and it just dominates the fuck out of your general aggro legacy tournies.

I didnt end up switching to the Kudzus at all because I only played against aggro. I didnt use my Grids for the same reason. The rest helped alot. Shaman blew up like 3 Needles or Crypts, Witness helped cast 2 lost cards.

I think the deck gains alot more consistancy with blue cut from the deck. Anyone that enjoys loam confinement decks should give my build a try.

Parcher
10-04-2006, 09:00 PM
No offence Bane, as I know you have actually played multiple versions of the deck. But your logic seems skewed.

In every match you wrote "I couldn't find X", or "I couldn't maintain X", or "I couldn't restore X".

Intuition is without any doubt whatsoever, the strongest card in the deck. And countermagic allows you to maintain the lock once it has been established.

While it might be better, faster, or more broadly playable, I just don't see how you could possibly think that the deck would gain consistancy from cutting Blue.

Bane of the Living
10-04-2006, 10:00 PM
Well just like you said its too difficult to play the deck with manlands as three colors. I found blue to be the most worthless since it pays no direct contribution to the decks goals. Intuition is nice yes but E tutor and Crop Rotation are much much cheaper. I won many games because I baited my opponents into wastelanding my crop rotation targets. I dont need counterspells to protect my confinement because I have sterling grove. I found problems reliably having doulbe white mana for Humility in a 3 color build. Blue//Red had to go. I wouldnt turn back now.

My only complaint is I dont have a tutor for loam. Im still not sure how to solve that problem but it may just be to take some focus away from the card. You'll notice I do run 2 Crucible to support the land theme, and also Living Wish -> Squee to maintain lock.

Living Wish is another phenomenoid card that I couldnt fit with blue in the deck. Try my deck Parcher, I promise its worth attention.

Lego
10-07-2006, 03:47 PM
We end up going to time after he resolves a suspiciously well drawn Armageddon.

That's because I skanked it from the sideboard cuz I had no outs for your lock. Figured you'd call me on it. *Shrug*

SillyMetalGAT
10-07-2006, 05:56 PM
That's because I skanked it from the sideboard cuz I had no outs for your lock. Figured you'd call me on it. *Shrug*

SO YOU DID CHEAT??

Lego
10-07-2006, 10:17 PM
SO YOU DID CHEAT??

Heh, no, I was joking. I boarded in a single Geddon, cuz I couldn't find enough to take out to board 2.

SillyMetalGAT
10-07-2006, 11:44 PM
Heh, no, I was joking. I boarded in a single Geddon, cuz I couldn't find enough to take out to board 2.

Oh, ok. Cuz we were wonfering where you got that geddon.... Bane didnt think you sided anything in. Oh well, his fault for not paying better attention.

etrigan
12-07-2006, 01:46 PM
Does Trade Routes have a place in this deck?

"Trade Routes"
Info: Color = Blue Type = Enchantment Cost = 1U Edition = Mercadian Masques (MM)

Errata: {1}: Return target land you control to its owner's hand. ; {1},Discard a land card: Draw a card.

As it essentially turns allows you to cycle with all your lands, which might allow you to cut the normal cycling lands, which I consider slow. The casting cost looks right, and doesn't interfere with either Confinement or Intuition on turn 3.

Also works well with Vinelasher Kudzu, letting you replay lands, making him bigger faster. Unfortunately, it still won't give him any evasion, which is a still a problem, but maybe it's a step in the right direction.

Although it has the same problem as a lot of other cards in this deck: What do you cut?

Parcher
12-07-2006, 03:05 PM
Welcome to The Source!!!

It is almost always better to leave threads that have not been active for over a month alone.

The two reasons this has been left inactive are that it is too slow for tournament play, and that Krosan Grip has made this deck unviable in it's present form.

If interested in Loam/Confinement, you may want to check out the Confinement/Slide, or the TerraGeddon threads, as they are still active and playable.

Bane of the Living
12-09-2006, 08:56 AM
Welcome to The Source!!!

It is almost always better to leave threads that have not been active for over a month alone.

The two reasons this has been left inactive are that it is too slow for tournament play, and that Krosan Grip has made this deck unviable in it's present form.

If interested in Loam/Confinement, you may want to check out the Confinement/Slide, or the TerraGeddon threads, as they are still active and playable.

I dont think Grip completely screwed the deck. It doesnt matter that it cant be countered if Grip cant target your enchantment. Play Sterling Grove. I ended up taking blue out of my list to make it more consistant.

mana 28
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
2 Plains
4 Tranquil Thicket
3 Secludded Steppe
1 Maze of Ith
1 Nomad Stadium
3 Wasteland
2 Nantuko Monastary
3 Mishras Factory

4 Exploration
4 Life from the Loam
3 Crop Rotation
3 Living Wish

2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Solitary Confinement
3 Humility
1 Seal of Cleansing
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Sterling Grove
2 Crucible of Worlds

SB
1 Glacial Clasm
1 Wasteland
1 Mishras Factory
1 Nantuko Monastary
1 Eternal Witness
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Maze of Ith
1 Squee
3 Defense Grid
4 Vinelasher Kudzu

This list is pretty refined. I love the Crop Rotation and E tutor toolboxes. Exploration and the high land count give it an explosive opening like 43 land or eternal garden. Humility is a back breaker with the man lands because you always have the biggest creatures. If your opponent is playing swords just keep wasteland ready to waste your own man lands when targeted. I still have the Vinelashers in the board against anything Humility sucks against. Parcher, give this build a try. I think you'll like it.

Parcher
12-09-2006, 09:24 AM
This list looks fine, but it's not the same deck as the one I was responding to the question about. I don't see Trade Routes going in this version.

And remember, your Vinelashers stay big as long as they have the counters on them before Humility resolves.

Bane of the Living
12-09-2006, 09:51 AM
This list looks fine, but it's not the same deck as the one I was responding to the question about. I don't see Trade Routes going in this version.

And remember, your Vinelashers stay big as long as they have the counters on them before Humility resolves.

I was responding to your insinuation that Confinement is a dead deck due to Krosan Grip. Trade Routes I dont think is very good. Even though cycle lands may seem slow they are reliable as land drops and can be dredged and fetched by loam itself.

Wow I totally forgot about the counters on Vinelasher. That makes things different.

Radley
03-07-2007, 09:12 AM
I was responding to your insinuation that Confinement is a dead deck due to Krosan Grip. Trade Routes I dont think is very good. Even though cycle lands may seem slow they are reliable as land drops and can be dredged and fetched by loam itself.

Wow I totally forgot about the counters on Vinelasher. That makes things different.

So, krosan grip = lose?

Bane of the Living
03-07-2007, 04:39 PM
So, krosan grip = lose?

Thats why the deck plays Sterling Groves. Besides, your opponent needs to set up an alpha strike for the turn they take it down. If you have a hand full of lands with Assault on the table or Humility then you can just survive and relock the game with a new Confinement.

Ive been in situations where I know Im about to win in a turn or two but want to play super safe to be sure. Ill drop a second Confinement before passing that last turn or two. The deck is more than capable of keeping two confinements running with loam, it just hampers your development.

Radley
03-07-2007, 05:08 PM
Thats why the deck plays Sterling Groves. Besides, your opponent needs to set up an alpha strike for the turn they take it down. If you have a hand full of lands with Assault on the table or Humility then you can just survive and relock the game with a new Confinement.

Ive been in situations where I know Im about to win in a turn or two but want to play super safe to be sure. Ill drop a second Confinement before passing that last turn or two. The deck is more than capable of keeping two confinements running with loam, it just hampers your development.

Why not just play 2 sterling groves? :laugh: So they can't target any enchantments in play because the only option they will have is a "destroy all enchantments" card which means if they use that, same will happen eventhough you got 2 solitary confinement in play.

Bane of the Living
03-07-2007, 05:42 PM
Why not just play 2 sterling groves? :laugh: So they can't target any enchantments in play because the only option they will have is a "destroy all enchantments" card which means if they use that, same will happen eventhough you got 2 solitary confinement in play.

Do you read what people write before you reply? The first thing I did was point out the groves. If you look at my list you'll notice that Im running a pair.

No one plays Tranquility aside from Wastedlife's TES. I know that card isnt even favored in his build and most people playing wish board removal where I play opt to run Simplify or Hullbreach.

Cavius The Great
03-07-2007, 05:47 PM
Do you read what people write before you reply? The first thing I did was point out the groves. If you look at my list you'll notice that Im running a pair.

No one plays Tranquility aside from Wastedlife's TES. I know that card isnt even favored in his build and most people playing wish board removal where I play opt to run Simplify or Hullbreach.

I'm curious as to which Tranquility effect he plays. I assume it's Reverent Silence because it's free and ups the storm count. If it's not that, then I assume it's something cheap like Tranquil Domain. Also, the life gain from Reverent Silence shouldn't matter much since it doesn't put you at a major setback. Just my two cents.

ForceofWill
03-07-2007, 05:50 PM
Why would he play Reverent when he doesn't play a single forest.

Cavius The Great
03-07-2007, 05:54 PM
Why would he play Reverent when he doesn't play a single forest.

I didn't notice that. Maybe running Bayou would help but I assume he's already tested and discarded that idea. Isn't there a better sorcery speed Tranquility effect besides Tranquility itself?

Parcher
03-07-2007, 05:55 PM
And Domain is an instant. Non-Wishable.

I'm pretty sure it's just Tranquility.

Radley
03-07-2007, 06:09 PM
Do you read what people write before you reply? The first thing I did was point out the groves. If you look at my list you'll notice that Im running a pair.

I said, it's better to have 2 sterling grove in play and 1 confinement so the lock is really tight. I suggest more sterling groves but that means removing other cards that might be crucial. You won't listen to me anyway because I'm not a pro in legacy.

Bane of the Living
03-07-2007, 08:20 PM
I said, it's better to have 2 sterling grove in play and 1 confinement so the lock is really tight. I suggest more sterling groves but that means removing other cards that might be crucial. You won't listen to me anyway because I'm not a pro in legacy.

Play the list as is, then provide feedback about what to change.

Radley
03-07-2007, 10:44 PM
What variant do you guys think is the best one? The G/R/B with cabal therapy or G/R/W with solitary confinement lock?

vigilante
03-08-2007, 06:23 AM
Test them both and make up your own mind. Which is 'best' will depend on your play style and metagame.

Poron
03-08-2007, 06:41 AM
mmm no blue no party here imho. and what about EXTIRPATE on Loam?

no, it's quite unplayable right now.

cards you definitly should play are: Wrath of God (3x, indeed, perhaps cutting Humility but I would play Both), TREETOP VILLAGE (if you want to play Humility, trample is the best ability you can ask from a man-land)

Radley
03-09-2007, 05:34 AM
mmm no blue no party here imho. and what about EXTIRPATE on Loam?

If you are saying that to g/b/u variant then you're right. Red has burning wish to make it easier for you to search for loam or if it got removed from the game. Ground seal might be a good addition against the withered wretch or something, it let's you draw a card anyway.

Bane of the Living
03-09-2007, 06:20 PM
mmm no blue no party here imho. and what about EXTIRPATE on Loam?

no, it's quite unplayable right now.

cards you definitly should play are: Wrath of God (3x, indeed, perhaps cutting Humility but I would play Both), TREETOP VILLAGE (if you want to play Humility, trample is the best ability you can ask from a man-land)


Blue literally offers loam nothing to abuse. Theres Forbid, but counterspells are lacking in this format. Setting up for a combo counterspell seems like a waste of time. The double blue is also restrictive.

I liked blacks discard but ended up dropping it for red to utilize Wish and Assault. The better loamy cards.

Extirpate is answered with Burning Wish.

Wrath seems pointless when playing Humility. Humility is a permanent solution where WoG is temporary. If Humility resolves I have no problem blocking with factories and using Assault to finish off the 1/1's. Wrath is still just fine as a wish target however.

Treetop seems like a good idea, I forgot about him.

Radley
03-10-2007, 04:23 AM
I just realised that LFTL isn't fit for any combo, it's just an abusable card for discarding in sorcery speed. Want to know a stoopid combo? When a wild mongrel is out and is ready to attack and you got 2 basking rootwalla, play cloudstone curio then let wild mongrel attack, if your opponent didn't block, pump your mongrel endlessly with basking rootwalla, returning each other because of cloudstone curio. LOL very unplayable combo though, like the fluctuator cycling combo :laugh:

LFTL can be used on locks like solitary confinement lock although it's very fragile.

Bane of the Living
03-10-2007, 10:12 AM
Its not that fragile. You cant be targeted by discard and the loam draw engine is essentially uncounterable. I used to play with Living Wish to grab Squee for the lock, I found Burning Wish much more valuable. The biggest problem is Tormods Crypt which I usually set Chalice at 0 for or play Pithing Needle against.

ForceofWill
03-10-2007, 10:17 AM
They can't crypt you when you have confinement out.

Bane of the Living
03-10-2007, 11:00 AM
They can't crypt you when you have confinement out.

Holy crap I forgot about that. Son of a bitch cheaters @ the lair! There you have it, confinement isnt so easy to break. Especially with Sterling Groves.

MattH
03-10-2007, 12:50 PM
Blue literally offers loam nothing to abuse.
Intuition?

Radley
03-10-2007, 01:08 PM
Holy crap I forgot about that. Son of a bitch cheaters @ the lair! There you have it, confinement isnt so easy to break. Especially with Sterling Groves.

LOL, I can't believe someone like you have been cheated at. The only problem is extirpate, I don't know if ground seal is a good idea but it lets you draw a card(can't be burning or living wished, an be enlightened tutor or sterling grove though.)

Daze
03-10-2007, 01:10 PM
Maybe I get something wrong here, but Ground Seal shuts down your own engine..

ForceofWill
03-10-2007, 01:16 PM
Maybe I get something wrong here, but Ground Seal shuts down your own engine..

No you are right radley is just an idiot.

Radley
03-10-2007, 01:31 PM
No you are right radley is just an idiot.

:laugh: thank you :laugh:

Bane of the Living
03-10-2007, 01:41 PM
If people are still interested in this deck I have an on going development on it in the N&D. Its called Columbus Confinement. The list is very refined and its a wrecking ball in aggro heavy metas. Extirpate is really not an issue playing with Burning Wish.

Intuition is nice but I dont think needed. Its not a nasty weapon like Devestating Dreams or Confinement. It doesnt protect your enchantments or tutor for them like Sterling Grove. Its good at finding a bunch of one of lands and for that I prefer Crop Rotation. It gives you a great play against Wastelands and helps save your Factories from Swords. Getting Glacial Chasm into play at instant speed is also ridiculous.

Radley
03-10-2007, 01:54 PM
If people are still interested in this deck I have an on going development on it in the N&D. Its called Columbus Confinement. The list is very refined and its a wrecking ball in aggro heavy metas. Extirpate is really not an issue playing with Burning Wish.

Intuition is nice but I dont think needed. Its not a nasty weapon like Devestating Dreams or Confinement. It doesnt protect your enchantments or tutor for them like Sterling Grove. Its good at finding a bunch of one of lands and for that I prefer Crop Rotation. It gives you a great play against Wastelands and helps save your Factories from Swords. Getting Glacial Chasm into play at instant speed is also ridiculous.

Anything in this deck that is good against combo decks? Maindeck and sideboard?