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AnwarA101
04-18-2006, 01:30 AM
With some relative success it seems appropriate to begin some discussion on the deck and the archetype. There have been many mono-black aggro threads in recent memory (I just did a search for them), but none actually seemed to go the route of Suicide Black instead opting for more a black weenie strategy or a Confidant based approach ala Deadguy Ale.

The deck is based around using very powerful creatures to finish off your opponent using disruption as means to that end. The main difference between this deck and the decks that have been discussed in mono-black threads is that the creatures in this deck by and large can end the game all on their own. This deck is tempo-driven by this I mean it wants to play something that will affect the game immediatedly as possible. While draw spells are always important and helpful, this deck cannot spend the precious early turns of a game trying to generate card advantage. It simply doesn't win because it has more cards in hand but rather because its disruption has allowed its creatures to seal the deal.

I played the following deck to a 9th Place Finish at the most recent StarCity Duel for Duals -

//Disruption
3 Pithing Needle
4 Hymn To Tourach
4 Sinkhole

//The Legion of Doom
4 Wretched Anurid
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Phyrexian Negator

//Removal
4 Vendetta
4 Diabolic Edict

//Mana
4 Dark Ritual
4 Wasteland
17 Swamps

Let's go over each section to explain the way the deck works.

Disruption

Pithing Needle - I decided to play Pithing Needle over Duress because I wanted to improve my game against Goblins and other aggro decks where Duress is either very poor or just outright dead. At this tournament Pithing Needle ended up being different levels of effectiveness - amazing against aggro but much worse against combo and control. I think this is mostly a metagame call, but currently I'm favoring Duress over this card but boarding Needle can be a very good choice.

Hymn to Tourach - One of the best ways to disrupt your opponent is to pull two random cards from his hand on turn 2. This card acts like the best Duress (pulling the two most relevant cards) or like a double Sinkhole (pulling two lands) or often just a good mixture. The card is amazing against combo, control, and aggro.

Sinkhole - There's nothing like robbing tempo from your opponent when on your third turn you untap and play your third land, but your opponent only has 1 in play because you played a turn 2 Sinkhole. Its that window of opportunity that a deck like this lives and thrives off of.

The Legion of Doom
Okay I like my creature base in this deck so much that I've gone so far as to give them a name - The Legion of Doom (based on the old cartoon Super Friends). I was also given the suggestion Cowboys From Hell (Pantera album) on Saturday (thanks Asher) which I find pretty cool as well.

Wretched Anurid - He's a recent addition and substitution for Flesh Reaver. While I love the Reaver's power and speed but against decks playing creatures he just often turns himself off by by losing so much life. Anurid can also cause a great deal of lifeloss (and uncontrollable I might add), but he's much better about being chump blocked. I'm still not certain which one is best in the current metagame, but both are powerful 3/3s and 4/4s for 2 mana.

Nantuko Shade - While not the best turn 2 play, he's definitely amazing often swing for 5 damage starting on turn 3. He ends the game unblocked within a few turns. He makes all of your post third turn rituals into giant growths. He eats other creatures for a living.

Hypnotic Specter - You might think he doesn't end the game quickly because he's a 2/2, but in fact he does end the game just as fast as the other creatures, because he makes it so that your opponent has to top-deck the answer since he shrinks your opponent's hand very quickly. He is one of the few ways the deck can actually generate card advantage.

Phyrexian Negator - Negator in a format with creatures! Must be a mistake! No mistake at all. In fact the mistake is that people think he's terrible in this format because Goblins exists. To be fair I thought he would be terrible against Goblins myself, but I've beaten Goblins with him so many times I know he is good against Goblins. A 5/5 on turn 1 is nuts that's all you need to know. There is no other deck in this format that can boast that. I would never play this deck without Phyrexian Negator.

Removal
This is part of the deck that I really had to work on for Legacy. Older Suicide Black decks were often based in non-creature formats (ie Type 1). So I figured I needed to dedicate some of the main deck to removal. This would serve two purposes - Kill my opponents creatures, but more importantly force my creatures through which is what the deck needs to be able to do win games.

Vendetta - There are many 1cc removal spells, but none are as versatile as Vendetta in this deck. Sure the lifeloss is an issue, but the important thing is that you can play this card on turn 1. Having an answer for Goblin Lackey as well as being able to hit almost any creature (black creatures being the obvious exception).

Diabolic Edict - As a secondary removal spell it has impressed me time after time. While it seems terrible against aggro decks the main benefit of this card its the least likely to be dead. Suicide Black has no draw as currently constructed so it has to make it least likely for it to draw a dead card. Diabolic Edict is dead so infrequently it makes for a very good card in this deck. Its often even useful against combo decks (Spring Tide, Salvager's Game, Belcher, etc.)

Mana

Dark Ritual - This is another reason to play this deck. It allows for you to generate so many busted openings that this card is integral to the deck. People often think that you need this card to win, but that just isn't the case. If constructed correctly Dark Ritual only increases your tempo and doesn't rely on it exclusively.

Wasteland - Another disruptive element that both generates tempo and disruption all in one card. It complements the Sinkhole strategy very nicely and often allows for generating so much tempo by your opponent missing multiple land drops that you win because of it.

Swamps - The reason to play 17 is to make sure you hit your second swamp on turn 2. I can't stress this enough. The surest way to lose tempo is to not be able to play your spells on the turns on which they are suppose to be cast. I've tried running 18 but I have not seen no major improvement in hitting the right amount of lands.

Matchups

Goblins 40/60 Preboard - When I first put this list together I thought my game against goblins would be terrible. To be fair this was last summer before Goblins really took off, but I was suprised to find that this wasn't the autoloss. Preboard games are difficult, but very winnable. You want at least 1-2 to creatures in your opening hand and hopefully a removal spell as well. If you are running Duress - hope you don't draw it since its the most dead card in the main deck. Post board games get much easier with boarding Infest and Pithing Needle. The reason no Engineered Plagues in the board is that this deck can't reliably find 2 Plagues because it lacks draw. Instead you Infest their team and drop a creature and swing in for the win.

Threshold (Gro) 50/50 Preboard - The different flavors make a big difference. The black version is most favorable for you because they're removal is often dead. The white version is pretty close, but often they just drop Mystic Enforcer and you lose (unless you have the Edict!). The red version also sounds difficult because bolt on a Negator is a never a good thing, but in actuality you can protect your Negators with Duress, Hymn, and Sinkhole. Going after their manabase can often be a successful strategy. The game usually goes to which player can get his creatures to stick. While Sui's creatures are better in the early game and Threshold's creatures are better in the mid game it becomes quite a battle to see which creatures make it through.

Solidarity 70/30 Preboard - While this may seem like an auto win it is not. While you are heavily favored you can often lose because they can go off through your 1 or 2 disruption spells. Remand has been a huge help to Solidarity in this matchup. But you usually win because you have disruption plus a fast clock. Your creatures will never look as good as they look in this matchup. Sui still loves to see Mono-blue decks!

Rifter unsure - I haven't tested enough to really have a sense of how the matchup goes. When I did test against Wombat it was slightly favorable perhaps about 60/40, but Lightning Rift itself can be quite the problem, but again the manabase is more open to disruption. Its hard to say at the time of this writing exactly what that matchup is.

My Name Is Scott
04-18-2006, 01:49 AM
What sideboard did you run up there, and how did it do against the field?

FakeSpam
04-18-2006, 02:12 AM
From the archived section of this board. (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1400)

I think most of the discussion there still applies. I just thought I would throw out a link to the last time that suicide was considered decent. There are a lot of outdated concepts, too. Like we thought Chalice of the Void was a good card. Oh, and I ran Graveborn over confidant because confidant wasn't invented yet.

The match against rifter isn't exactly all that great. I have found that haunting echoes is the card that makes the matchup winnable. Also, you will need Dystopia to kill Humility should it drop.



have not seen no
Don't let P_R see that.

Zilla
04-18-2006, 02:18 AM
There are a lot of outdated concepts, too. Like we thought Chalice of the Void was a good card.
Actually, Chalice is still a decent card for Sui. It can power it out quickly, and it's rock solid against Thresh, Burn, and Storm combo.

FakeSpam
04-18-2006, 02:28 AM
Kk. I can understand the burn and high tide matchup. You really need to explain to me it's use in thresh, though.

Zilla
04-18-2006, 03:11 AM
Kk. I can understand the burn and high tide matchup. You really need to explain to me it's use in thresh, though.
Nearly half their deck is in the 1cc range. Does it really need further explaining?

Drathro
04-18-2006, 08:58 AM
Actually, Chalice is still a decent card for Sui. It can power it out quickly, and it's rock solid against Thresh, Burn, and Storm combo.
I agree. I wished I had sided Chalice at Kadilak's Dual Land Draft. It disrupts so many decks, mainly because Legacy seems to have a large focus on cheap threats and early "velocity" (as Flores put it), most of which are 1cc cards.

Hypothetically speaking, if you played Chalice of the Void in Sui-black (maindeck or board), it would make sense to run Snuff Out (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=Snuff_Out) instead of Vendetta, since you will almost always want to set the Chalice to one.

Edit: Ever consider a Tomb of Urami (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=Tomb_of_Urami) or two as a potential extra finisher? Your Legion of Doom is probably adequate threat, but it's a thought.

TheDarkshineKnight
04-18-2006, 12:18 PM
I ran Chalice back when I played Sui and loved it. Also, when I saw your list, I think my head exploded because I didn't see Duress.

kirdape3
04-18-2006, 01:36 PM
Honestly, I'm wondering why Dark Confidant isn't in this list. Yes, I know that it was already in a similar list, but 'draw 2 cards a turn' is awfully ridiculous. It doesn't even necessarily mean that you have to give up the current focus of your deck - if you have Bob Maher online, you're just going to draw into more animals to bash them with.

I'd want to board Perish against Threshold, Haunting Echoes against W/R Control, Engineered Plague against Goblins, and additional hand disruption against High Tide.

Is there a reason that you're not playing with a full set of Chrome Moxen?

Have you considered the 8 Zombies from Tempest block? They aren't quite big enough to punch through a Nimble Mongoose, but they certainly can't be killed while trying to block a Goblin Lackey and they're nice things to defend a Phyrexian Negator against a Lightning Bolt with.

Whit3 Ghost
04-18-2006, 01:50 PM
Why not Rotting Giant over Anurid?

Do you have a report from the D4D?

powergamer1003
04-18-2006, 02:14 PM
Rotting is less effective, because of the possibility that you will have to hold back with him. Any time you are holding back with a creature, you are not going to be in a winning position. In addition the life loss of the Anurid is to so much that you cannot manage. After all, the deck is called Suicide Black.

Dr.ugs
04-18-2006, 02:20 PM
Just to make some promotion and maye inspire you to some ideas here is the article about the "suicide-deck" I am running.It does not play like suicide any more but the game plan is quite similiar.

Slumpy (http://londes.com/article.php?id=863)

My list is not that dependant on Ritual and I did not like Negator in a meta full of bolt,rifter,FTK,Mogg Fanatic,Gempalm,Grim Lavamancer,Cursed Scroll etc..

Like Kirdape3 sad Confidant should definatly be in that list.
Then Vendattas lifeloss might be a bigger issue and you might want to switch to something else(for example I use smother).The 8 one casting cost Zombies are answers to turn 1 Lackey that stay around and they do trade with Piledriver and Chief in the midgame.Also they are win conditions.

Phantom
04-18-2006, 05:52 PM
I like the idea of Sui black, and the decklist seems ok. Here's what I would (will?) do with my build:

1) Add Dark Confidant in the Anurid spot. He beats for one less, and won't trade with a 'Goose, but instead of spending life to play other threats, he spends your life to GET other threats. It's a draw engine that doesn't hurt your threat count (in other words, a gift from god). Also, he's a magnet for removal, letting your more powerful beaters live.

2) Splash a color. I know this deck isn't Pikulas, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't steal his ideas. I don't think it can compete consistintly without a splash. Red seems the obvious choice, but I prefer white. Vindicate (in place of Vendetta or Edict) significantly improves your Threshold, Combo, and Control matchups without really hurting your other matchups. Also, white gives you some SB choices vs. Burn, which is an auto loss otherwise. And it really doesn't kill the mana base. Simply sub 4 Scrubs for Swamps, and 6 fetches for swamps or 3-4 fetches and 2-3 Tainted Field. This also gives you the option to run StP, but I'm not big on it for this deck.

3) I also agree with the 1 of Tomb of Urami.

4) Any thought to Hunter Horror? He has savage synergy with Edict (and Vindicate).

5) I really like Pithing Needle because it can shut down opponents fetches, but I'm not sure it belongs mainboard. I know you made this as a meta choice, but I think threats/removal might have been the better choice. Vindicate shines here because it is all purpose removal that is never dead (unlike Needle) so it allows you to focus the rest of your deck.

AnwarA101
04-18-2006, 09:01 PM
Here is a link to my Tournament Report for the Duel for Duals -

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=60892&postcount=28



Edit: Ever consider a Tomb of Urami or two as a potential extra finisher? Your Legion of Doom is probably adequate threat, but it's a thought.


Tomb of Urami seems to have bad synergy with both Negator and Shade. No I haven't considered it and I don't think it would work very well.



Honestly, I'm wondering why Dark Confidant isn't in this list. Yes, I know that it was already in a similar list, but 'draw 2 cards a turn' is awfully ridiculous. It doesn't even necessarily mean that you have to give up the current focus of your deck - if you have Bob Maher online, you're just going to draw into more animals to bash them with.


The reason is that Dark Confidant isn't a threat. He dies to all removal that is run in this format and he is bad turn 2 drop if you want to win by turn 5 or so. He might draw you into more cards, but those cards won't be in play. You need cards in play to be able to win quickly. This deck won't win by drawing more cards. It just not part of the strategy. This might be suprising, but Dark Confidant doesn't belong in every black deck. This deck is a perfect example of that.



Is there a reason that you're not playing with a full set of Chrome Moxen?


I've never tried it but the main problem I see is that eats a business spell and you have no draw to make up for it. Dark Ritual is the best accleration and I'm not sure any other accleration fits in.



Why not Rotting Giant over Anurid?


This deck can't reliably put enough cards in its own graveyard to always keep him active especially in the early game.

Rambo
04-18-2006, 09:38 PM
Is there a reason to not run a couple of withered wretches maindeck? Possibly for the needles, as this would improve your chances against threshold if it resolves, and makes your threats considerably larger than theres. It also helps against salvagers combo and lftl decks.

powergamer1003
04-19-2006, 08:43 AM
Is there a reason to not run a couple of withered wretches maindeck? Possibly for the needles, as this would improve your chances against threshold if it resolves, and makes your threats considerably larger than theres. It also helps against salvagers combo and lftl decks.

The main problem I have found with Wretches is that they are not a threat. While I agree that, the needles might not be the best option, wretch is not either. In addition, the wretch's ability is basically useless, becasue there is never a time you want to be removing cards from the graveyard rather then playing threats.

No, the problem with Sui is not its lack of threats, or its mana base, or anything it runs. What the deck lacks is two things: 1.) Reach, and 2.) A late game plan.

Once it hits turn 6, and you are not dominating the board, you have Lost. The real problem, is giving up a little bit of consistency, for the reach that the deck needs so desprately. There are cards i.e., moat and Humility that when they come down, Sui Just looses. Suicide needs a way to develop a late game plan, to destroy your opponents.

Things to look at:

Tangle Wire: I know this does not solve the late game problem. But it gives soo much tempo, that maybe it is necessary. It basically stunts your opponents while allowing you to keep on swinging.

Cursed Scroll: Against decks like goblins, getting an active scroll can mean gg. Maybe I am still running in the old Pox mentalty. I think its worth looking at though. Since Sui empties his hand so quickly, it is very effective. Against many control decks it is simply just reoccuring damage.

kirdape3
04-19-2006, 12:14 PM
I don't care about winning turn 5 - I care about winning, period. Dark Confidant, while dying to every removal spell I can think of, will keep you in enough gas if it isn't that you will win the attrition games. I seriously doubt that it's better than Wretched Anurid at actually getting into any sort of creature fight - when they play reinforcements, that guy domes you.

Also, Chrome Mox allows you to play your 2 drops as effectively one-drops. I wouldn't mind casting Hymn to Tourach on turn 1 on the play.

powergamer1003
04-19-2006, 02:17 PM
The Problem with confidant, is that he is to weak. We have seen him so many times in Sui. He never takes the offensive, unless your opponent does not have a board. In addition, Confidant lacks the raw power that the other threats have. While he does draw you cards, he is more like a situational draw spell rather then a creature. In my testing, while confidant does help out in some matchups, one cannot justify running him.

Anurid at least beats in. While he does take life off of you, can fight many creatures and win. Confidant dies to everything. Remember this deck needs to be the most agressive deck in the format. You can't be holding back during the attack step, since many of your creatures are really only good during the early turns.

Now on the idea of chrome mox in the deck, why would anyone run this when there is dark ritual in the format. Ritual lets you play 3 drops on turn one, and generates such great tempo advantages. While playing a hymn on turn 2 is appealing, it seems like one would rather play ritual hymn. There is nothing wrong with dropping a turn one hymn with a ritual, not to mention the other threats in the deck.

With chrome mox and ritual in the deck, one will be loosing to many cards, and it seems like that you will have to be getting rid of revelent spells to use the chrome mox.

AnwarA101
04-19-2006, 03:05 PM
I don't care about winning turn 5 - I care about winning, period. Dark Confidant, while dying to every removal spell I can think of, will keep you in enough gas if it isn't that you will win the attrition games. I seriously doubt that it's better than Wretched Anurid at actually getting into any sort of creature fight - when they play reinforcements, that guy domes you.

Also, Chrome Mox allows you to play your 2 drops as effectively one-drops. I wouldn't mind casting Hymn to Tourach on turn 1 on the play.

Winning by turn 5 was just an example of having to win pretty soon. If you care about winning with this deck you need to do it soon. Wretched Anurid doesn't do that much damage to you in the early game your opponent can only drop a creature a turn sometimes two. I'm not discounting Dark Confidant, but I found that against both Goblins and Gro he hardly counts as a threat. He basically can never attack, and if he does survive for several turns then yes I've generated card advantage, but can this deck actually win several turns after a turn 2 confidant. That means a real threat hasn't been played until turn 3 (without Dark Ritual).

As for Chrome Mox, how would fit it in? What would cut? Lands, seem like a good choice, but that means that often you have to give up a business spell for the acceleration. I'm not sure if that sacrifice is worth it.

kirdape3
04-19-2006, 03:27 PM
I'd absolutely get rid of some lands for a set of Moxen. The ability to jump ahead on the mana curve is a huge one, allowing you to play your expensive spells faster. If you're worried about speed, then the loss of cards is irrelevant and Chrome Mox is a must. If you're worried about card advantage, then you want Dark Confidant even if it never gets to attack.

URABAHN
04-19-2006, 06:38 PM
If SuiBlack wanted card advantage, it'd run something like Night's Whispers or Infernal Contract, but not Dark Confidant. See the Ewok Zoo deck discussion for more on the "Does Dark Confidant really belong in an aggro deck that wants to smash your face in by Turn 5?" debate.

Phantom
04-23-2006, 09:21 AM
If SuiBlack wanted card advantage, it'd run something like Night's Whispers or Infernal Contract, but not Dark Confidant. See the Ewok Zoo deck discussion for more on the "Does Dark Confidant really belong in an aggro deck that wants to smash your face in by Turn 5?" debate.

Isn't this like arguing AGAINST goblin ringleader? Draw in creature form doesn't come around that often, and shouldn't be ignored. There's no reason a deck running confidant can't "smash your face in by Turn 5", it's just that Confidant let's you win games that go to turn ten. Maybe I'm wrong, but I know I'm right about this: Sui Black will never be a serious contender as long as it plays no draw to back up it's initial rush.

It's the same story with Affinity, and Berserk/Zoo builds. If you put all your eggs in the "win quickly" basket, then your deck will be too inconsistent. Life's not about goldfishing.

FakeSpam
04-23-2006, 09:57 AM
Confidant good.

Fire baaaaaaaaad.

You generally trade resources on a one-for-one basis. He lets you keep doing that so you can win the game. Winning the game, I have found, is strictly superior to losing.

URABAHN
04-23-2006, 11:43 AM
Isn't this like arguing AGAINST goblin ringleader? Draw in creature form doesn't come around that often, and shouldn't be ignored. There's no reason a deck running confidant can't "smash your face in by Turn 5", it's just that Confidant let's you win games that go to turn ten. Maybe I'm wrong, but I know I'm right about this: Sui Black will never be a serious contender as long as it plays no draw to back up it's initial rush.

It's the same story with Affinity, and Berserk/Zoo builds. If you put all your eggs in the "win quickly" basket, then your deck will be too inconsistent. Life's not about goldfishing.

Have you bothered to read the previous posts about Dark Confidant?


The Problem with confidant, is that he is to weak. We have seen him so many times in Sui. He never takes the offensive, unless your opponent does not have a board. In addition, Confidant lacks the raw power that the other threats have. While he does draw you cards, he is more like a situational draw spell rather then a creature. In my testing, while confidant does help out in some matchups, one cannot justify running him.


Winning by turn 5 was just an example of having to win pretty soon. If you care about winning with this deck you need to do it soon. Wretched Anurid doesn't do that much damage to you in the early game your opponent can only drop a creature a turn sometimes two. I'm not discounting Dark Confidant, but I found that against both Goblins and Gro he hardly counts as a threat. He basically can never attack, and if he does survive for several turns then yes I've generated card advantage, but can this deck actually win several turns after a turn 2 confidant. That means a real threat hasn't been played until turn 3 (without Dark Ritual).

Last I checked, Goblin Ringleader gave you card advantage right away. Dark Confidant would have to stay in play for a few turns in a format that's rife with creature removal. Are you playing a threat when you drop Turn 2 Bob in SuiBlack?

Here's s'more analysis of Dark Confidant from the Ewok Zoo thread in the CaNGD forum that applies here:


Confidant is better in other matchups, but still not optimal. 2/1s for 2 are simply not efficient investments for such an aggressive deck.

Dark Confidant also makes Flesh Reaver worse, both because it slows down your clock and because it makes you lose life. And no, Confidant is not in any way worth cutting Flesh Reaver.

I wouldn't cut it for a 3/3 body in the form of Wretched Anurid, either. But go ahead, run Bob in Suicide black and win the many games you think you'll win when it gets to Turn 10. In my experience, if you're playing SuiBlack and get to your 10th turn, you're already dead.

AnwarA101
04-23-2006, 03:02 PM
Isn't this like arguing AGAINST goblin ringleader? Draw in creature form doesn't come around that often, and shouldn't be ignored. There's no reason a deck running confidant can't "smash your face in by Turn 5", it's just that Confidant let's you win games that go to turn ten. Maybe I'm wrong, but I know I'm right about this: Sui Black will never be a serious contender as long as it plays no draw to back up it's initial rush.

It's the same story with Affinity, and Berserk/Zoo builds. If you put all your eggs in the "win quickly" basket, then your deck will be too inconsistent. Life's not about goldfishing.

I agree with everything URABAHN discussed in his post, but I want to be even more clear. Its not that I don't want to draw 2 cards a turn. Drawing more cards usually helps because that will help you win, but there are a couple of problems with this strategy in Suicide Black.

First, Dark Confidant needs to stay alive for multiple turns in a row before this happens. This means there is no immediate boost from playing Confidant. This lack of effecting the game state when he comes into play is the biggest problem with him in this deck. He is by his nature tempo-loss in this sense. He sets up a more long-term strategy which this deck does not employ. I think this deck would need to be changed to include Confidant (see Deadguy Ale, that deck tries to fully utilize Confidant's power).

Second, he is a terrible threat because he loses to every creature in combat and is unable to attack unless your opponent isn't playing creatures. He actually doesn't help win you the game unless you are playing against combo or control. He also dies to every form of creature removal in this format.

Finally, I want to say that I don't think Dark Confidant is a bad card. In fact any card that can help you draw 2 cards a turn can't be that bad. But you have to make an argument for him working in this deck. If you have a list you think would work with Confidant please list it in this thread. I'm more than willing to reevaluate my testing results, but not without good justification.

kirdape3
04-23-2006, 07:26 PM
4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
4 Withered Wretch
4 Dark Confidant
4 Phyrexian Negator

4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Sinkhole
4 Vendetta
2 Snuff Out

4 Dark Ritual
4 Wasteland
14 Swamp

Confidant is really good if you can keep the pressure up with other creatures. I personally prefer the 8 Zombie plan because the idea of having few or no turn 1 plays in an aggressive deck is anathema to me. Cabal Therapy is awfully ridiculous, and too much of the current format is vulnerable to Duress to not maindeck it.

Evil Roopey
04-23-2006, 08:00 PM
4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
4 Withered Wretch
4 Dark Confidant
4 Phyrexian Negator

4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Sinkhole
4 Vendetta
2 Snuff Out

4 Dark Ritual
4 Wasteland
14 Swamp

Confidant is really good if you can keep the pressure up with other creatures. I personally prefer the 8 Zombie plan because the idea of having few or no turn 1 plays in an aggressive deck is anathema to me. Cabal Therapy is awfully ridiculous, and too much of the current format is vulnerable to Duress to not maindeck it.

So you can only kill creatures that aren't black, and you aren't playing Hyppie or Hymn? Not to mention the only actual threat you want to cast on turn 1 or 2 is Negator.

Edited for flames---frogboy

kirdape3
04-23-2006, 08:16 PM
Hyppie is a 2/2 flier for 3 mana. Nice job. If you don't have a Ritual, by the time that 3 mana rolls around you'd better have something better to do than that guy.

What black creatures that are commonly played exist? Dark Confidant and...?

You know what I screwed up? Replace 4 Swamp with 4 Chrome Mox.

Be nice, all of you---frogboy

frogboy
04-23-2006, 09:33 PM
Are you playing a threat when you drop Turn 2 Bob in SuiBlack?

Well, yeah. He's still a bear. Trading him in combat is usually a pretty good deal, because you usually stay even on tempo and you're up a card from your upkeep. It's only really bad if your opponent just has larger monsters than yourself, but then you're pretty screwed regardless.

powergamer1003
04-23-2006, 10:08 PM
The problem is that while confidant is still a bear, the deck needs to keep dropping threats that live on turns. The problem is that confidant dies to all pieces of removal.

Hypnotic specter while he is only a 2/2 for three mana, he is well worth the investment. The fact that he disrupts everytime he hits, and the fact that he has evasion, allows him to be a powerful force to deal with. Most of the time many decks the soft lock that hyppie creates. Flying also allows him to allow sui to get around a huge team of creatures i.e. goblins, or multiple mongooses or wearbears. I think that Hippie is crucial in the deck, the disruption he generates is far to great to overlook.

Phantom
04-23-2006, 10:30 PM
Have you bothered to read the previous posts about Dark Confidant?

Yeah, I read em all, I just think they're wrong.


Confidant is better in other matchups, but still not optimal. 2/1s for 2 are simply not efficient investments for such an aggressive deck.

Dark Confidant also makes Flesh Reaver worse, both because it slows down your clock and because it makes you lose life. And no, Confidant is not in any way worth cutting Flesh Reaver.



Its not that I don't want to draw 2 cards a turn. Drawing more cards usually helps because that will help you win, but there are a couple of problems with this strategy in Suicide Black.

First, Dark Confidant needs to stay alive for multiple turns in a row before this happens. This means there is no immediate boost from playing Confidant.

We run a 2/2 for 3 mana, an no one EVER argues his inclusion. I'm not saying that Confidant > Hypy, just that trading beat power for card advantage is something this deck already does. Hypy also needs to "stay alive for multiple turns in a row" to have an effect. Arguing that a creature needs to stay alive to be effective is a little obvious.

The Flesh Reaver remark must be dated, b/c I haven't seen him in a build on this thread. Thus, I will ignore it.



Second, he is a terrible threat because he loses to every creature in combat and is unable to attack unless your opponent isn't playing creatures.

Now this is just flat out false. Are you not running any removal??? Does no one tap out to attack you??? There is actually very little blocking in Legacy.

While I agree that Confidant is EXTREMELY fragile, I think perhaps you are overestimating the amount of creature removal being played. Rifter is probably the only major deck running enough removal to handle all the decks creatures, which means that they are going to have to pick and choose which creatures to kill and which to let live.

Now let's take the Thresh matchup and say it goes like this:

Turn 1: Ritual + Hypy gets FoW/Dazed
Turn 2: Dark Confidant/Wretched Anurid

Now let's say that Thresh is holding some dig, a werebear or 'goose, and a StP, and you are holding a Negator (any creature will do, but he's the best example).

A)When the Confidant comes down, he is going to plow it hard and fast, knowing that if Threshold loses the battle for card advantage, it loses the game.

B)The same is not true if a Wretched Anurid comes down. He will play some dig or a creature and attempt to gain Threshold as quickly as possible to stop the Anurid.

Now in example A, turn three would result in a Negator with no StP to stop it. Example B's Thresh deck is able to deal with both the Negator and the Anurid in a timely fashion.

Now this is an very simplified, specific, example (although I've seen its like many a time) but my point was, threats are what your opponents percieve to be threats. What deck is ignoring a resolved Confidant? Even combo knows it is bad news to let you draw into mana fixing, more disruption, and a wider variety of creatures.


. But go ahead, run Bob in Suicide black and win the many games you think you'll win when it gets to Turn 10. In my experience, if you're playing SuiBlack and get to your 10th turn, you're already dead.

I'm not saying I'm planning a deck that wins turn ten, but I'd prefer it not to be an autoloss if my initial rush is stalled. I hate to bring up the Goblins again, but there is an explosive deck that doesn't fold in the late game because of it's draw engine. Now I'm not dumb enough to claim that Confidant >>> Ringleader, but sui black have some other advantages over Goblins (hymn, sinkhole, ritual).



If you have a list you think would work with Confidant please list it in this thread. I'm more than willing to reevaluate my testing results, but not without good justification.

Well, I've been building this deck:

//Land (I like a lot of saclands, but I could easily run Deadguys manabase if I wanted)
5 Swamps
4 Wastelands
3 Bloodstained Mires
4 Polluted Deltas
4 Scrubland
1 Tomb of Urami
4 Rituals

//Creatures
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter

//Removal Disruption
4 StP (this is up for debate if they should be different removal or creatures, but it's hard to argue w/ swords)
4 Vindicate
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Duress (Debatable to put in the board if you're in a Goblin heavy meta. I think the help vs. Combo/Control/Rifter/Thresh makes up for it.)

1) Now I traded 4 creatures for removal, which is debatable, but I can't say enough fantastic things about Vindicate, which has become the MVP of this deck allowing me to run 4-8 land destruction spells, 4-8 creature removal spells, and 0-4 artifact/enchantement removal spells.

2) I can't decide if I want to bank out 4 removal spells for another creature (probably Carnophage as I only have one turn one play without ritual). Still, I love the creature base here because all the creatures are undisputedly amazing, and Negator thrives with more disruption/removal.

3) Also, I find that the 1 Tomb of Urami is winning me games I wouldn't normally win, while losing me a total of zero games thus far. And the fact that I can flip him with Confidant for 0 is just butter. I find it hard to believe that people are fighting so hard against him. He eats up a LAND SPOT for the love of god!



Anyway, whether you like or hate my build is regardless. Take the build on page one, replace Wretched Anurid with Dark Confidant and I think you'll see an good improvement in your testing against some major decks without reall hurting your testing vs. other decks. If not, then I'm wrong and it won't be the first time.

Sorry for the huge post and any heated remarks. I love me some black aggro!

frogboy
04-23-2006, 11:23 PM
The problem is that confidant dies to all pieces of removal.

What does Confidant get killed by that the rest of the deck is not affected by?

Phantom
04-23-2006, 11:30 PM
What does Confidant get killed by that the rest of the deck is not affected by?

Mogg Fanatic is about all I can really think of. No one plays lava darts, and no one's going to play E plague or Darkblast against sui. If you compare him to the 3/3 he's replacing, he dies to F/I and Magma Jets. Not that sui is ever beating burn.

Drathro
04-24-2006, 12:35 AM
The problem is that confidant dies to all pieces of removal.
Under the right circumstances, this is not that much of a drawback. Let me explain:

Back in the pre-Confidant days, some people had a nickname for Hypnotic Specter: "Lightning Rod." The reason for this was that every time you played a Specter, the opponent's creature removal was immediately aimed straight at him. It was a rare occasion when the Specter survived to connect with a prepared opponent. Why run such a fragile creature then? By drawing the opponent's removal, other less disruptive, but larger, threats survived. This was part of Hyppie's function in the deck. (The other part being highly effective disruption if it actually survived, obviously.)

I can tell you from experience that Dark Confidant is another "Lightning Rod," and a very useful one in B/W Confidant decks, because it frequently means that Hyppie finally survives long enough to damage the opponent. This interaction, in tandem with Confidant's ability, further's B/W's strategy of moderate disruption + weenies. Strategy is where Sui Black and B/W diverge.

If I understand it correctly, Sui Black's strategy is to beat with fast large threats backed by light disruption. This leaves the Sui Black player with two relevant questions:

1. Can a deck that wants to play its large threats ASAP run 8 fragile "Lightning Rods" and still beat down? (And, by extension, would more than 4, but less than 8 "L-Rods" be feasible?)
2. If a turn one or two Confidant sticks, will the cards drawn off of it help you win the game more rapidly than if you had just drawn an undercosted beater?

URABAHN
04-24-2006, 07:46 AM
Well, I've been building this deck:

//Land (I like a lot of saclands, but I could easily run Deadguys manabase if I wanted)
5 Swamps
4 Wastelands
3 Bloodstained Mires
4 Polluted Deltas
4 Scrubland
1 Tomb of Urami
4 Rituals

//Creatures
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter

//Removal Disruption
4 StP (this is up for debate if they should be different removal or creatures, but it's hard to argue w/ swords)
4 Vindicate
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Duress (Debatable to put in the board if you're in a Goblin heavy meta. I think the help vs. Combo/Control/Rifter/Thresh makes up for it.)

Take the build on page one, replace Wretched Anurid with Dark Confidant and I think you'll see an good improvement in your testing against some major decks without reall hurting your testing vs. other decks. If not, then I'm wrong and it won't be the first time.

Actually, it's take the build on page 1, and do the following:

-4 Wretched Anurid
-4 Vendetta
-4 Diabolic Edict
-3 Pithing Needle
-12 Swamp
+4 Polluted Delta
+3 Bloodstained Mire
+1 Tomb of Urami
+4 Scrubland
+4 Swords to Plowshares
+4 Vindicate
+4 Dark Confidant
+4 Duress

Swords to Plowshares and Vindicate have lousy synergy with your beatdown mentality and Dark Ritual. Swords gives your opponent life, it may not be much, but it might be enough to buy them one more turn. Vindicate makes little sense as a 3-drop, if you want to get rid of a creature that bad, play Vendetta, Snuff Out, or Edict because they're cheap and don't cost W.

Tomb of Urami might be useful if you were playing multiple copies. How often in the games you've playtested have you seen your lone copy of Tomb and kept on the board long enough to find 4 mana to activate AND swing with it? At least Hatred and even Kaervek's Spite would do damage immediately. Your lone Tomb of Urami does something even worse--take your deck to 61 cards. I suppose that's fine if you want to play what looks like a hybrid of DeadGuy and SuiBlack, a sort of Black Aggro Control.

TheDarkshineKnight
04-24-2006, 11:25 AM
If anything, Dark Confidant can be a sideboard choice, if anything at all.

Phantom
04-24-2006, 12:13 PM
Actually, it's take the build on page 1, and do the following:

-4 Wretched Anurid
-4 Vendetta
-4 Diabolic Edict
-3 Pithing Needle
-12 Swamp
+4 Polluted Delta
+3 Bloodstained Mire
+1 Tomb of Urami
+4 Scrubland
+4 Swords to Plowshares
+4 Vindicate
+4 Dark Confidant
+4 Duress

Swords to Plowshares and Vindicate have lousy synergy with your beatdown mentality and Dark Ritual. Swords gives your opponent life, it may not be much, but it might be enough to buy them one more turn. Vindicate makes little sense as a 3-drop, if you want to get rid of a creature that bad, play Vendetta, Snuff Out, or Edict because they're cheap and don't cost W.

What I meant was the true test of Dark Confidant is "take the build on page one, replace Wretched Anurid with Dark Confidant and I think you'll see an good improvement in your testing against some major decks without really hurting your testing vs. other decks." I just gave my build because someone asked for it.

As for the lousy synergy, I put right next to Stp that I was considering other removal or creatures in that slot. Vindicate has lousy synergy with absolutely nothing. I like to do things like:

Turn 1: Ritual -> Negator
Turn 2: Sinkhole
Turn 3: Vindicate a land
Turn 4: Waste a land

Of course there is other creature removal that is cheaper, but Vindicate is dead in exactly no matchups. It vastly improves my mana disruption, delaying Humility or Lightning Rift another turn, or simply removing them all together. Some might look at this card as a tempo loss for the deck, but it's usually a tempo loss for the opponent.


Tomb of Urami might be useful if you were playing multiple copies. How often in the games you've playtested have you seen your lone copy of Tomb and kept on the board long enough to find 4 mana to activate AND swing with it? At least Hatred and even Kaervek's Spite would do damage immediately. Your lone Tomb of Urami does something even worse--take your deck to 61 cards. I suppose that's fine if you want to play what looks like a hybrid of DeadGuy and SuiBlack, a sort of Black Aggro Control.

The 61 was simply a clerical error (1 less sacland). I can't type. I agree that a 1 of land that I can't tutor for looks very odd until you test it. First, I never, ever want to draw 2 of him. Second, I really don't want him till the end game. Third, he's plan triple Z on my win condition list. I tested 2, but found I was putting a token in play just as often as if I had 1. Still, my testing on this is not comprehensive. I will argue that he belongs in the deck though.

Also, the splash of white gives you some SB options against Rifter and Burn (which is normally a horrible matchup for Sui, right?)


Still, I didn't come here to post my list and defend it. I know it's not what this thread is talking about. I literally took Sui, and just stole what I thought was the best part of Deadguy. Vindicate.

Back to the Dark Confidant debate:


Under the right circumstances, this is not that much of a drawback. Let me explain:

Back in the pre-Confidant days, some people had a nickname for Hypnotic Specter: "Lightning Rod." The reason for this was that every time you played a Specter, the opponent's creature removal was immediately aimed straight at him. It was a rare occasion when the Specter survived to connect with a prepared opponent. Why run such a fragile creature then? By drawing the opponent's removal, other less disruptive, but larger, threats survived. This was part of Hyppie's function in the deck. (The other part being highly effective disruption if it actually survived, obviously.)

I can tell you from experience that Dark Confidant is another "Lightning Rod," and a very useful one in B/W Confidant decks, because it frequently means that Hyppie finally survives long enough to damage the opponent. This interaction, in tandem with Confidant's ability, further's B/W's strategy of moderate disruption + weenies. Strategy is where Sui Black and B/W diverge.

If I understand it correctly, Sui Black's strategy is to beat with fast large threats backed by light disruption. This leaves the Sui Black player with two relevant questions:

1. Can a deck that wants to play its large threats ASAP run 8 fragile "Lightning Rods" and still beat down? (And, by extension, would more than 4, but less than 8 "L-Rods" be feasible?)
2. If a turn one or two Confidant sticks, will the cards drawn off of it help you win the game more rapidly than if you had just drawn an undercosted beater?

This is the fairest, most concise, and all around smartest post about Confidant in this deck I've seen so far. Kudos to you sir.

powergamer1003
04-24-2006, 01:29 PM
What does Confidant get killed by that the rest of the deck is not affected by?

The problem that I can think of, is that Confidant dies to every blocker. Through my experience playing Sui, I have found that while he does generate card advantage, he does not count as a threat. He cannot win any fight. With Sui, many times you cannot be sitting back on the early turns, not playing threats.

The beauty that Hypnotic specter has, is that he can at least attack with out the threat of being blocked. Since he has evasion, he can hit and disrupt. With confidant, he is rarely dealing damage. Since Sui does not have any reach, you need a creature that can get damage across most of the time. Hyppie can almost always fill this spot.

The weakness of confidant is that when you play him, many times you are loosing tempo, when dropping, and since he rarely attacks, he becomes more of a situational draw spell, then a creature. Many times, one would rather play dsiruption, or drop a bigger, better creature. The bottom line: He is not a threat, in a deck that NEEDS to be the most agressive deck in the format.

URABAHN
04-24-2006, 07:30 PM
"take the build on page one, replace Wretched Anurid with Dark Confidant and I think you'll see an good improvement in your testing against some major decks without really hurting your testing vs. other decks."

Examples? What's improved? How?


As for the lousy synergy, I put right next to Stp that I was considering other removal or creatures in that slot. Vindicate has lousy synergy with absolutely nothing. I like to do things like:

Turn 1: Ritual -> Negator
Turn 2: Sinkhole
Turn 3: Vindicate a land
Turn 4: Waste a land

Of course there is other creature removal that is cheaper, but Vindicate is dead in exactly no matchups. It vastly improves my mana disruption, delaying Humility or Lightning Rift another turn, or simply removing them all together. Some might look at this card as a tempo loss for the deck, but it's usually a tempo loss for the opponent.

So Vindicate isn't even used as creature removal in your build, it's an LD spell? Why not run Rain of Tears? In the above example, if your opponent wipes out your Negator, you've played zero threats by Turn 4, Dark Confidant included.


The 61 was simply a clerical error (1 less sacland). I can't type. I agree that a 1 of land that I can't tutor for looks very odd until you test it. First, I never, ever want to draw 2 of him. Second, I really don't want him till the end game. Third, he's plan triple Z on my win condition list. I tested 2, but found I was putting a token in play just as often as if I had 1. Still, my testing on this is not comprehensive. I will argue that he belongs in the deck though.

Based on what? If Tomb is plan ZZZ, why even run it? Why run a single Tomb of Urami as a win condition? You need 4 mana and the Tomb, it has to sit there for a turn before it can attack, and you have no more lands in play. Tell me what's so awesome about 1 Tomb of Urami?


Also, the splash of white gives you some SB options against Rifter and Burn (which is normally a horrible matchup for Sui, right?)

What White cards do you plan on siding in that won't ruin the integrity of the deck? Warmth?


Still, I didn't come here to post my list and defend it. I know it's not what this thread is talking about. I literally took Sui, and just stole what I thought was the best part of Deadguy. Vindicate.

You're so right. Start a new thread because Black Aggro LD/Control is not what this thread is talking about.


1. Can a deck that wants to play its large threats ASAP run 8 fragile "Lightning Rods" and still beat down? (And, by extension, would more than 4, but less than 8 "L-Rods" be feasible?)
2. If a turn one or two Confidant sticks, will the cards drawn off of it help you win the game more rapidly than if you had just drawn an undercosted beater?

Phantom, you say the above quote "...is the fairest, most concise, and all around smartest post about Confidant in this deck I've seen so far." Then how do you answer those questions?


The weakness of confidant is that when you play him, many times you are loosing tempo, when dropping, and since he rarely attacks, he becomes more of a situational draw spell, then a creature. Many times, one would rather play dsiruption, or drop a bigger, better creature. The bottom line: He is not a threat, in a deck that NEEDS to be the most agressive deck in the format.

It seems to me that your build wants to hang around for several turns, draw cards, cut off the opponent's mana base, kill the opponent's creatures, disrupt the opponent's hand, and then beatdown with Negator, Shade, and Specter. It sounds like Deadguy with Negator, or Train Wreck without a creature sweeper. And, like you said, that's not what this thread is talking about.

Eldariel
04-24-2006, 07:45 PM
Based on what? If Tomb is plan ZZZ, why even run it? Why run a single Tomb of Urami as a win condition? You need 4 mana and the Tomb, it has to sit there for a turn before it can attack, and you have no more lands in play. Tell me what's so awesome about 1 Tomb of Urami?

It's an extra win condition. When opponent has killed your other win conditions, you can activate it and win. If you had a swamp instead, you'd lose for sure. The chances of drawing one are higher than the chances of drawing zero. If it's supposed to act as a land too, running 2 might generate sitiuations where it hurts your mana production, so for safe-players, 1 is the right number. For people who're willing to give up a land drop in about 1 game in hundred for an extra card worth of win conditions, 2 is the right number.

0 is the right number if your opponents don't play creature removal ever.

kirdape3
04-24-2006, 08:14 PM
Hypnotic Specter costs 3 mana for a 2/2 evasion creature. When he connects with the opponent, he loses a card at random. Dark Confidant costs 2 mana for a 2/1 creature with no special abilities. At the beginning of your upkeep, you get to draw a card and lose life equal to it's converted mana cost.

Dark Confidant's ability is actually better most of the time than Hypnotic Specter, simply because you don't have to rely on successfully dealing combat damage to draw your cards. Sure, it's nice to deal damage a little more often, but I'd rather be up the extra cards than I would batting them for two - damage sources are relatively easy to come by. Being able to draw extra cards, and thereby win attrition wars against another aggressive deck, is going to be key a whole lot. If they kill that guy, that's one less thing that can kill your Negators and Shades. If they don't kill that guy, you're going to grind him under.

powergamer1003
04-24-2006, 08:38 PM
Dark Confidant's ability is actually better most of the time than Hypnotic Specter, simply because you don't have to rely on successfully dealing combat damage to draw your cards. Sure, it's nice to deal damage a little more often, but I'd rather be up the extra cards than I would batting them for two - damage sources are relatively easy to come by. Being able to draw extra cards, and thereby win attrition wars against another aggressive deck, is going to be key a whole lot. If they kill that guy, that's one less thing that can kill your Negators and Shades. If they don't kill that guy, you're going to grind him under.

I don't exactly agree with you here. Remember in Sui, you are not trying to fight a war of attrition. The game plan is thus; Disrupt; beat; Disrupt; beat; Win. While I agree that in a long game confidant ability is better, Hyppie allows the deck, to get damage in fast. Remember in the long game, your own flaws start catching up, i.e. card advantage loss from rituals, permanants from negators, life from anurids. Confidant only stgrenthens your loss of life. While he may be helpful in the long game; Sui is not in the position to play for the long game. Remember this is deck that needs to never stop attacking. I cannot stress this enough. Sui Black is the most agressive in the format. Confidant, lets your turn 2 drop become a creature that does not usually swing in. Remeber any blocking creature will kill confidant. It is this reason that he cannot be played.

TheDarkshineKnight
04-24-2006, 09:11 PM
Powergamer puts it perfectly. Sui is about the winning ASAP. It's not a deck that can sit around. You have to hit them hard and fast. Confidant does absolutely nothing to further this. Sure, card advantage is good, but the chances are, even without Confidant, that you will be ahead of your opponent in terms of card advantage. Duress, Hymn to Tourach, and Hypnotic Spectre are played for a reason, you know.

SillyMetalGAT
04-24-2006, 09:40 PM
So what does deck do when it gets to mid-game? Roll over and die? Then why play it?

Artowis
04-24-2006, 10:43 PM
I don't exactly agree with you here. Remember in Sui, you are not trying to fight a war of attrition. The game plan is thus; Disrupt; beat; Disrupt; beat; Win. While I agree that in a long game confidant ability is better, Hyppie allows the deck, to get damage in fast. Remember in the long game, your own flaws start catching up, i.e. card advantage loss from rituals, permanants from negators, life from anurids. Confidant only stgrenthens your loss of life. While he may be helpful in the long game; Sui is not in the position to play for the long game. Remember this is deck that needs to never stop attacking. I cannot stress this enough. Sui Black is the most agressive in the format. Confidant, lets your turn 2 drop become a creature that does not usually swing in. Remeber any blocking creature will kill confidant. It is this reason that he cannot be played.


Powergamer puts it perfectly. Sui is about the winning ASAP. It's not a deck that can sit around. You have to hit them hard and fast. Confidant does absolutely nothing to further this. Sure, card advantage is good, but the chances are, even without Confidant, that you will be ahead of your opponent in terms of card advantage. Duress, Hymn to Tourach, and Hypnotic Spectre are played for a reason, you know.

OMG I CAN'T SIT AROUND, I WANT TO MAKE THE OPPONENT HAVE NO HAND AND 1 LAND IN PLAY!@>#$@#R(. That's great. I applaud you for wanting that.

The issue is when this doesn't happen and you DO get dragged into an attrition war (Which will happen, since the format is still very creature based), you don't want to be sitting so far behind the opponent. Confidant helps with this.

Another thing is that Hyppie isn't even that good. It takes roughly as long as Confidant to make any sort of card advantage and in general making the opponent discard is just worse than drawing your own cards. Oh and Confidant is cheaper than Hyppie to throw down? Good times.

URABAHN
04-24-2006, 10:58 PM
So what does deck do when it gets to mid-game? Roll over and die? Then why play it?

If you play an aggressive build, a.k.a. the way it's supposed to be played, the answer is an emphatic "YES". Why play it? Because the early game is that damn good.

That's like asking why people play any Legacy deck that's not Goblins or Threshold in Legacy.

MonkeY
04-24-2006, 11:10 PM
If you play an aggressive build, a.k.a. the way it's supposed to be played, the answer is an emphatic "YES". Why play it? Because the early game is that damn good.

That's like asking why people play any Legacy deck that's not Goblins or Threshold in Legacy.

So? Just because a deck was originally SUPPOSED to be played a certain way, doesn't mean it is wrong to make it better by slightly changing the way it is SUPPOSED to be played.

I acknowledge this is a thread discussing Sui Black, as in pure aggro (black). I still feel that if we can make the deck more resiliant to decks just as fast as it, like Goblins, by giving it a better mid-game, we should.

Phantom
04-24-2006, 11:13 PM
Examples? What's improved? How?

I haven't done the testing yet, but I think that the Thresh matchup would be improved, as well as most control, or aggro/control decks through the extra card advantage sui would gain. I also think it would help the combo matchup by drawing sui into more disruption, and bigger beaters, fixing mana, etc.


So Vindicate isn't even used as creature removal in your build, it's an LD spell? Why not run Rain of Tears? In the above example, if your opponent wipes out your Negator, you've played zero threats by Turn 4, Dark Confidant included.

It's used as whatever the hell I want or need. I'm not sure you can understand the beauty of this card until you run it. Still, it has nothing to do with this right here...



Based on what? If Tomb is plan ZZZ, why even run it? Why run a single Tomb of Urami as a win condition? You need 4 mana and the Tomb, it has to sit there for a turn before it can attack, and you have no more lands in play. Tell me what's so awesome about 1 Tomb of Urami?


The real question is, why wouldn't you run a Tomb? It doesn't eat a creature spot, produces black mana, and beats for the win. There have been games that I would have lost, that I one because of this card. Isn't that enough to try it at least? If your build has never run out of creatures, feel free to run 0.



What White cards do you plan on siding in that won't ruin the integrity of the deck? Warmth?

Exactly. Pulse of the Fields isn't even out of the question since burn runs 0 wastes.


1. Can a deck that wants to play its large threats ASAP run 8 fragile "Lightning Rods" and still beat down? (And, by extension, would more than 4, but less than 8 "L-Rods" be feasible?)
2. If a turn one or two Confidant sticks, will the cards drawn off of it help you win the game more rapidly than if you had just drawn an undercosted beater?


Phantom, you say the above quote "...is the fairest, most concise, and all around smartest post about Confidant in this deck I've seen so far." Then how do you answer those questions?

I answer them yes, and yes. I may be wrong. The fact is we're bickering back and forth without any hard numbers to back it up. I haven't had the opportunity to yet, but at my first chance, I will take my own advice and test the build on page one with and without Confidant.

URABAHN
04-24-2006, 11:24 PM
OMG I CAN'T SIT AROUND, I WANT TO MAKE THE OPPONENT HAVE NO HAND AND 1 LAND IN PLAY!@>#$@#R(. That's great. I applaud you for wanting that.

SuiBlack strips your opponent's hand and blows up all their land? That sounds more like Deadguy Ale.


The issue is when this doesn't happen and you DO get dragged into an attrition war (Which will happen, since the format is still very creature based), you don't want to be sitting so far behind the opponent. Confidant helps with this.

I think the key difference between Confidant in Deadguy and SuiBlack is that Bob is much better in Deadguy because you'll get to your disruption faster. In an aggro deck, like SuiBlack, you'll draw more threats, but at what price? You have to leave Bob sitting around for a few turns and you may not want to attack with him, because if your opponent has a creature, then your way to get around "sitting so far behind the opponent" will be dead. If you really want to draw cards in SuiBlack, play Night's Whisper, it costs the same, costs you less life and gets you two cards NOW. The notion you'll be dragged into a war of attrition is a myth because your creatures are BIGGER and will squish the opposition. How many aggro decks out there have creatures as big as yours that come out as fast?

Anurid is a 3/3, Hippie flies, Shade is at least a 4/3, Negator is a house that runs over just about everything in the format. Silver Knight? Squish. Mongoose? I'll trade with that. Goblin [INSERT NAME HERE]? Squish. Werebear? Hope you have answers for that. Eternal Dragon? If your opponent gets to 7 mana and plays Dragon, you're in trouble because you took too damn long.


Another thing is that Hyppie isn't even that good. It takes roughly as long as Confidant to make any sort of card advantage and in general making the opponent discard is just worse than drawing your own cards. Oh and Confidant is cheaper than Hyppie to throw down? Good times.

Hippie isn't that good in general, or in SuiBlack?

URABAHN
04-24-2006, 11:29 PM
So? Just because a deck was originally SUPPOSED to be played a certain way, doesn't mean it is wrong to make it better by slightly changing the way it is SUPPOSED to be played.

I acknowledge this is a thread discussing Sui Black, as in pure aggro (black). I still feel that if we can make the deck more resiliant to decks just as fast as it, like Goblins, by giving it a better mid-game, we should.

Phantom thinks Confidant will make matchups vs. Gro, Combo, and Control better. He'll let us know when he actually tries it.

Phantom
04-24-2006, 11:38 PM
Phantom thinks Confidant will make matchups vs. Gro, Combo, and Control better. He'll let us know when he actually tries it.

I like how you use the word think like it's a dirty word LOL.

AnwarA101
04-25-2006, 12:31 AM
I have done testing with Dark Confidant. I ran the following list against both Goblins and Gro -

4 Duress
4 Hymn
4 Sinkhole

4 Nantuko Shade
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Phyrexian Negator

3 Vendetta
4 Diabolic Edict

4 Dark Ritual
4 Wasteland
17 Swamps

My testing against Goblins was terrible. I think I went something like 3-7 which is lower than my usual 4-6 testing against goblins when running Anurid. When my Confidant was not countered by Mogg Fanatic or Gempalm Incinerator often he couldn't really block and survive, but I often did throw him in front of a huge Piledriver.

I tested awhile back against UGR Gro with the same list. I believe that I was slightly up in this matchup maybe 6-4, but Confidant did help in some games where he stuck around. The matchup with Gro can get into a long game sometimes, but those games are often lost by Sui mainly because Gro's creatures in the mid game become very difficult to kill. Confidant did help me draw threats that I would not have normally drawn, but he rarely was able to attack - in these cases he functioned as a slow but steady draw spell.

I did some more recent testing against UGW Threshold, but I did very poorly like 2-8, but this was with Dark Confidant and Anurid but no Diabolic Edict and I often just lost to resolved Mystic Enforcer.

This post isn't to ignite the Dark Confidant debate further, but to point my experience with the card and how I've come to not be impressed with his results in this deck.

Evil Roopey
04-25-2006, 02:24 AM
Goblins 40/60 Preboard - ...........
Threshold (Gro) 50/50 Preboard -

So with these numbers, don't you think the deck needs something more to be viable? These number seem to be a good reason not to play the deck. I'm not saying that the archetype of Sui isn't good, just that it needs something to push these numbers a little more in your favor.

I think the real discussion should be, what is that something?

Splash?
More aggro route?
More disruptive route?
New cards?
Dark Confidant? (Although this has been reiterated many times, and no one seems to want to concede the point)

What is it that is going to push Sui from being lower tier, to highly viable?

Consistancy is definatly something that should be worked on, from my experience, and maybe that's all the deck really needs is a little more consistancy. The problem is, you want enough disruption and enough threats to make the deck do what it wants to do, but without a drawengine of some sort, you can easily get stuck with a lot of disruption but no threat to back it up or vice versa.

How can we make the deck more consistant?

frogboy
04-25-2006, 09:42 AM
URABAHN, have you ever actually played with Tomb of Urami in Standard? The "Miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiise!" factor comes into play a lot more than you'd think it would.

powergamer1003
04-25-2006, 10:25 AM
The problem with Tomb, is that it is in a deck that only runs 17 lands and 4 wastelands. If one plays tomb, in may allow for the mize factor to kick in to place, but you will get screwed more often by other deck's wastelands. I really don't think 1 tomb is justifiable for running it. In addition, have you noted the terrible synergy this card has with negator.

Phantom
04-25-2006, 11:00 AM
I'll give you the vunerability to wasteland (if you draw it in the early game. Late game you can wait to lay it until you need the token), but you would never, ever, blow the tomb with a negator in play. The only time I blow it when I have another creature in play at all is if it's going to win me the game.

I's a dangerous card to activate, so I usually only do it if I know they have no removal (empty hand or peek using duress). Also, becuase I run Confidant, there have been a few times when I can blow the tomb and recover quickly.

URABAHN
04-25-2006, 12:12 PM
URABAHN, have you ever actually played with Tomb of Urami in Standard? The "Miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiise!" factor comes into play a lot more than you'd think it would.

Standard? I must be in the wrong forum, I thought this was The Source, Your Source for Legacy.

Benie Bederios
04-25-2006, 02:20 PM
I'm testing this deck, but my there are alot of Bw Confidant decks around. What would be the best replacement for Vendetta?

Phantom
04-25-2006, 03:49 PM
I'm testing this deck, but my there are alot of Bw Confidant decks around. What would be the best replacement for Vendetta?

I think probably Smother. Kills about everything in Bw and Goblins.

Nightmare
04-25-2006, 03:50 PM
I think probably Smother. Kills about everything in Bw and Goblins.So does Last Gasp. Either one will work, but if you see more Gro than Goblins, go with Smother. If Goblins is bigger, go with LG, as it kills Ringleaders and SGC/KiKi

Phantom
04-25-2006, 03:58 PM
So does Last Gasp. Either one will work, but if you see more Gro than Goblins, go with Smother. If Goblins is bigger, go with LG, as it kills Ringleaders and SGC/KiKi

I was actually thinking of Last Gasp when I wrote Smother. Quoted for truth. LG sucks vs. werebear while Smother will let Lackey attack a turn on the draw.

Edit: I suck. they both cost 1B.

parallax
04-25-2006, 04:08 PM
I was actually thinking of Last Gasp when I wrote Smother. Quoted for truth. LG sucks vs. werebear while Smother will let Lackey attack a turn on the draw.
Feeling a bit tired today?
Both Smother and Last Gasp allow Lackey through on the draw. I suppose this deck has plenty of answers to Lackey anyway with Carnophage and Sarcomancy. Darkblast is another option but I don't think it's as good as the other two.

Zuriya
04-25-2006, 04:14 PM
Sorry if i don't contribute much to this discussion , but how about Tendrils of Agony ? It's perhaps the best life gain spell black has and might improve aggro matchups. It also has a lot of small benefits (the fact that it says loss of life , that it is very difficult to counter effectively , etc.)

powergamer1003
04-25-2006, 05:48 PM
Why not Snuff out? I kills the same stuff, for free. Just something to look at.

Atwa
04-25-2006, 05:55 PM
Sorry if i don't contribute much to this discussion , but how about Tendrils of Agony ? It's perhaps the best life gain spell black has and might improve aggro matchups. It also has a lot of small benefits (the fact that it says loss of life , that it is very difficult to counter effectively , etc.)

How makes this your aggro matchup better? Aggro plays its creatures only in your opponents turn, so you gain no benefit from your opponent plaing cheap creatures. I'd rather play Vampiric Touch instead of Tendrills in this deck.

Against Aggro, maybe Vicious Hunger would be good. But I think I'll just keep it at Infest.

Mordenkain
04-25-2006, 05:56 PM
Why not Snuff out? I kills the same stuff, for free. Just something to look at.

Because card disadvantage is bad in a deck without a draw engine. However it would be possible if you choose to run Dark Confidant.

TheDarkshineKnight
04-25-2006, 06:05 PM
OR Night's Whisper, which is superior to Confidant in this deck.

frogboy
04-25-2006, 07:11 PM
Originally Posted by frogboy
URABAHN, have you ever actually played with Tomb of Urami in Standard? The "Miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiise!" factor comes into play a lot more than you'd think it would.


Standard? I must be in the wrong forum, I thought this was The Source, Your Source for Legacy.

I'm going to take this as a "no."


The problem with Tomb, is that it is in a deck that only runs 17 lands and 4 wastelands. If one plays tomb, in may allow for the mize factor to kick in to place, but you will get screwed more often by other deck's wastelands. I really don't think 1 tomb is justifiable for running it. In addition, have you noted the terrible synergy this card has with negator.

I'm pretty sure that if I go swamp, go, tomb, two drop, go, and my opponent plays a Wasteland, I'll go take a victory lap. You know all that mana denial you have going on? If your opponent plays Wasteland on you, they basically just missed their land drop. Sui doesn't have much difficulty winning when it's opponent misses a land drop; you get a free turn to Sinkhole or Hymn them or just play a second threat.

Sometimes you take a point of damage.

Sometimes you make a 5/5 flier and win.

URABAHN
04-25-2006, 07:30 PM
Tomb might be a great card in Legacy, but I haven't played it in Legacy. A single copy might be worth having in a slower, more controlling black deck. A single copy in SuiBlack doesn't seem worth it. The earliest you can get the token in play is Turn 2 if you've got double Ritual, Turn 3 or 4 if you've a single Ritual, and Turn 5 if you've no Ritual. And you've blown up all your lands. How is that good for SuiBlack?

Lurking Evil is better in almost every way, not that I'd play it in this format because it's too dangerous. It can come out on Turn 1, lets your keep your lands, and flies for 4 every turn.

AnwarA101
04-25-2006, 07:59 PM
Because card disadvantage is bad in a deck without a draw engine. However it would be possible if you choose to run Dark Confidant.

Snuff Out is not card disadvantage. You must be thinking of Contagion. I run Vendetta in that spot because it gave me more removal as well as answer to first turn Lackey on the draw (as well as ritual -> creature).

Eldariel
04-25-2006, 08:08 PM
Tomb might be a great card in Legacy, but I haven't played it in Legacy. A single copy might be worth having in a slower, more controlling black deck. A single copy in SuiBlack doesn't seem worth it. The earliest you can get the token in play is Turn 2 if you've got double Ritual, Turn 3 or 4 if you've a single Ritual, and Turn 5 if you've no Ritual. And you've blown up all your lands. How is that good for SuiBlack?

Lurking Evil is better in almost every way, not that I'd play it in this format because it's too dangerous. It can come out on Turn 1, lets your keep your lands, and flies for 4 every turn.

Is Lurking Evil a land that taps for black mana? I rest my case.

Phantom
04-25-2006, 08:11 PM
Tomb might be a great card in Legacy, but I haven't played it in Legacy. A single copy might be worth having in a slower, more controlling black deck. A single copy in SuiBlack doesn't seem worth it. The earliest you can get the token in play is Turn 2 if you've got double Ritual, Turn 3 or 4 if you've a single Ritual, and Turn 5 if you've no Ritual. And you've blown up all your lands. How is that good for SuiBlack?

Lurking Evil is better in almost every way, not that I'd play it in this format because it's too dangerous. It can come out on Turn 1, lets your keep your lands, and flies for 4 every turn.

I think you're looking at this all wrong. First, Lurking Evil is crap for two reasons. First, it will almost always cost more life than the Tomb. Second and most importantly Tomb does not eat up the spot of a business spell. It's a land that produces colored mana and helps you win.

You can't look at the Tomb the same way you look at the other creatures in the deck (i.e. What turn can I play it and how fat is it?). You would never play it turn 2-4, unless your build seriously sucks. That's when you're playing your disruption and dropping your creatures. Hopefully, that's enough to win you the game, but often time the opponent stabalizes in the mid game by killing all your creatures. That's when the Tomb shines, especially since it dodges counterspells.

calosso
04-25-2006, 08:23 PM
Also Tomb can kill werebears,mongesse, and dragons against gro. I also don't really like it that much since tomb will do 2-4 damge to you if it is in your opening hand plus it really suck balls against aggro decks.

Card type: Creature

Creature type: Beast

Power/Toughness:3/3

Casting cost: 1 and 1 black

Card text: When Drekavac comes into play, sacrifice it unless you discard a noncreature card.

Oracle text: When Drekavac comes into play, sacrifice it unless you discard a noncreature card.

Flavor text: Like a vulture's scalp, the face of a drekavac is oily and hairless. The filth and disease of its carrion diet slip off its blood-slick skin.


Have you tried drekavac he is a very efficienr creature and a very small drawback.

AnwarA101
04-25-2006, 08:33 PM
I think you're looking at this all wrong. First, Lurking Evil is crap for two reasons. First, it will almost always cost more life than the Tomb. Second and most importantly Tomb does not eat up the spot of a business spell. It's a land that produces colored mana and helps you win.

You can't look at the Tomb the same way you look at the other creatures in the deck (i.e. What turn can I play it and how fat is it?). You would never play it turn 2-4, unless your build seriously sucks. That's when you're playing your disruption and dropping your creatures. Hopefully, that's enough to win you the game, but often time the opponent stabalizes in the mid game by killing all your creatures. That's when the Tomb shines, especially since it dodges counterspells.


I think arguing about a 1 of in a deck with no draw is hardly worth it. You will rarely draw Tomb and when you do it may or may not be good, but its doubtful that it makes a huge difference in the deck over the long haul. You just won't draw it enough for it to matter.

Artowis
04-25-2006, 08:39 PM
A single copy in SuiBlack doesn't seem worth it. The earliest you can get the token in play is Turn 2 if you've got double Ritual, Turn 3 or 4 if you've a single Ritual, and Turn 5 if you've no Ritual. And you've blown up all your lands. How is that good for SuiBlack?

...

If you're looking at how fast you can activate it, you aren't getting why the card would be in the deck.

Oh and Hippie still sucks.

calosso
04-25-2006, 08:47 PM
...

Oh and Hippie still sucks.

Why the hell would you say that hippie is such a good creature?

Phantom
04-25-2006, 09:35 PM
I think arguing about a 1 of in a deck with no draw is hardly worth it.

I've been arguing over the last few pages that the deck should run draw, but that hardly matters. If you can add a card to your deck that will win you 2 out of 100 games and lose you 1 out of 100 games, that's the easiest no brainer of all time, right?

URABAHN
04-25-2006, 10:25 PM
I think you're looking at this all wrong. First, Lurking Evil is crap for two reasons. First, it will almost always cost more life than the Tomb. Second and most importantly Tomb does not eat up the spot of a business spell. It's a land that produces colored mana and helps you win.

You can't look at the Tomb the same way you look at the other creatures in the deck (i.e. What turn can I play it and how fat is it?). You would never play it turn 2-4, unless your build seriously sucks. That's when you're playing your disruption and dropping your creatures. Hopefully, that's enough to win you the game, but often time the opponent stabalizes in the mid game by killing all your creatures. That's when the Tomb shines, especially since it dodges counterspells.

Tomb is worse than Swamp for the following two reasons:
#1 It does damage to you
Why would you want a Swamp that pings you everytime you tap it for mana?

#2 You blow up all your lands to make a 5/5 Demon Token
When your opponent stabilizes in mid-game by killing all your creatures, what in the world makes you think blowing up all your lands to make ONE 5/5 Demon Token is going to win you the game? Because it dodges Counterspells? Swords to Plowshares, anyone!? BRAINWASH, anyone!?


If you can add a card to your deck that will win you 2 out of 100 games and lose you 1 out of 100 games, that's the easiest no brainer of all time, right?

So, a 2% winning percentage 99% of the time? That's amazing!

Artowis, Do you mean Hippie sucks in general or in SuiBlack?

FakeSpam
04-25-2006, 10:31 PM
Why the hell would you say that hippie is such a good creature?

Because it can win the game all by itself.

Phantom
04-25-2006, 10:38 PM
Tomb is worse than Swamp for the following two reasons:
#1 It does damage to you
Why would you want a Swamp that pings you everytime you tap it for mana?


Yeah, SUI black would never want to trade life for a chance to win...


#2 You blow up all your lands to make a 5/5 Demon Token
When your opponent stabilizes in mid-game by killing all your creatures, what in the world makes you think blowing up all your lands to make ONE 5/5 Demon Token is going to win you the game? Because it dodges Counterspells? Swords to Plowshares, anyone!? BRAINWASH, anyone!?


It's a good thing you're not running any other creatures that they might have used all their removal on or any disruption that could put their removal in the yard. It all goes back to that build I posted of 59 swamps and one Tomb doesn't it?


So, a 2% winning percentage 99% of the time? That's amazing!

One extra win is one extra win. In a tourney, that can be the difference between T8ing or not.

Artowis
04-25-2006, 10:40 PM
Sucks in this meta. He's not that good really now that decks don't completely suck ass, but it's even worse that nobody plays control or combo in this format. Which are the two archetypes that Hyppie is mostly likely to actually wreck with one or multiple hits.

Aggro loses a land or a dude and probably doesn't care. To top if off, if you ritual Hyppie out, you basically beg your opponent to kill it before it actually does anything. At least when you Ritual your other guys in Sui Black you can generally cast Hymn or Duress first and then play them.

Obfuscate Freely
04-26-2006, 12:04 AM
Arguing about Tomb of Urami pretty much amounts to circle-jerking. The number of games that a single Swamp/Tomb swap will win or lose is undoubtedly marginally small.

That isn't to say that every extra percentage point doesn't matter, but it's pretty easy to contend that you'll lose more games to Tomb getting Wasted than you will win by activating it. The problem is that figuring out who is right requires testing, not filling up multiple pages regurgitating the same points. Drop it until someone can present some actual numbers.


Everybody yelling about Confidant
Dark Confidant is pretty closely comparable to Hypnotic Specter. Both give up size (relative to the other creatures in this deck) for the ability to generate incremental card advantage. However, Hyppie is a much better tool for this deck than Confidant, for a couple of reasons.

First of all, Hyppie's ability disrupts the opponent. Making you opponent discard cards may generally be worse than drawing your own cards, but not in this case. This is because the ability is attached to a creature, which means that your strategy (attacking and disrupting) must already be online to some degree for it to be relevant. Drawing more cards can bolster your strategy, but removing cards from your opponent's hand will often inhibit their strategy to a greater degree. Basically, a card in your opponent's hand will usually be more important to both players than an extra card drawn by Sui will be (insert Sui-bashing joke here). As a related point, Hyppie's ability can often delay the onset of the mid- and late-games, which is beneficial to Sui.

Secondly, Flying lets Hyppie deal far more damage, on average, than Confidant. The evasion also severely mitigates the disadvantage that Hyppie must deal combat damage to trigger. Combined with the disruptive nature of the ability, Flying makes Hyppie better suited to Sui's aggressive strategy than Confidant is, despite costing more.

Even though Hypnotic Specter is superior to Dark Confidant in this deck, they are still fairly close in purpose and in power level. Thus, arguing for the inclusion of one but not the other is certainly questionable, but bear with me.

Sui works with a delicate balance of disruption and threats; drawing too few of either during a game weakens the deck's strategy a great deal. The best argument for Hypnotic Specter's inclusion may likely be that it tries to fulfill both roles, even if it isn't a massive threat. Confidant, lacking evasion, can't really be considered a threat at all, so squeezing him into the list disturbs the disruption:threat:mana ratio the deck relies on.

An active Confidant will obviously fix your draw over time, but that does more to highlight the card's conflict with the Suicide concept than it does to support the card's inclusion in the deck. As others have said, Confidant may help out Suicide in the mid- to late-game, but this comes at an unacceptable expense to the deck's early-game.

powergamer1003
04-26-2006, 09:27 AM
Arguing about Tomb of Urami pretty much amounts to circle-jerking. The number of games that a single Swamp/Tomb swap will win or lose is undoubtedly marginally small.


Probably the best words that were written about the Tomb of Urami Debate.

FakeSpam
04-26-2006, 10:20 AM
I need to emphatically argue for Confidant's inclusion.

First of all, suicide sucks. You get one or two disruption spells, then attempt to ride one of your shitty men to victory. Once you've blown your load, that's pretty much it.

Confidant allows you to continually put pressure on your opponent, making it so they can't recover. I don't quite understand why confidant helping as a mid-game card is considered a strike against it.

Here is an example of a traditional game.

turn 1: land, duress. (5 cards in hand)

turn 2: land, ritual, sinkhole, hymn. (2 cards in hand)

turn 3: here it is, turn three. I would consider this mid-game. Considering that most decks in the format have a FT four. It's not early game (turns 1-2) and it's not late game (turns 5+) so it must be mid-game. You are generally looking at 3 cards in your hand. At this point in my example, an example that is pretty close to optimal, you have yet to cast any creature kill. That's fine unless you are playing goblins. Now, let's assume that of the three cards left in your hand one of them is removal, so we really only have two cards that are threats or potential threats. At this point we have to play a threat and ride it to victory with no card draw and no real reserves. The situation is worse if your threat costs three mana. At this point, a confidant here will either draw removal like any other creature you play or survive to refill your grip as you apply the pressure. What is better right now? Nantuko shade? It's a 4-power at best right now. Hypnotic? Dead or winning, just like confidant. Negator? One bolt and you are out of the game.

Confidant doesn't suck.

Next.

Benie Bederios
04-26-2006, 11:13 AM
I need to emphatically argue for Confidant's inclusion.

First of all, suicide sucks. You get one or two disruption spells, then attempt to ride one of your shitty men to victory. Once you've blown your load, that's pretty much it.

Confidant allows you to continually put pressure on your opponent, making it so they can't recover. I don't quite understand why confidant helping as a mid-game card is considered a strike against it.

Here is an example of a traditional game.

turn 1: land, duress. (5 cards in hand)

turn 2: land, ritual, sinkhole, hymn. (2 cards in hand)

turn 3: here it is, turn three. I would consider this mid-game. Considering that most decks in the format have a FT four. It's not early game (turns 1-2) and it's not late game (turns 5+) so it must be mid-game. You are generally looking at 3 cards in your hand. At this point in my example, an example that is pretty close to optimal, you have yet to cast any creature kill. That's fine unless you are playing goblins. Now, let's assume that of the three cards left in your hand one of them is removal, so we really only have two cards that are threats or potential threats. At this point we have to play a threat and ride it to victory with no card draw and no real reserves. The situation is worse if your threat costs three mana. At this point, a confidant here will either draw removal like any other creature you play or survive to refill your grip as you apply the pressure. What is better right now? Nantuko shade? It's a 4-power at best right now. Hypnotic? Dead or winning, just like confidant. Negator? One bolt and you are out of the game.

Confidant doesn't suck.

Next.

Lets assume in you're example you could cast any of you're creatures.

Confidant gives you're opponent the most change to get back in the game.
Hypnotic Specter. Is about the same strength as Confidant, see Obfuscate Freely's post. But it keeps you're opponent hand from growing, deals damage to you're opponent and not to you and has evasion. If you're opponent playes a 1/x threat Specter can chump block it, Confidant Dies to it. if you're opponent has something like a Wall of Blossom( it isn't much played but hell) Hypnotic Specter can attack where Confidant can't.

Nantuko Shade. Doesn't give card advantage, but is a house lategame. It can block anything without flying and survive. It can beat for 6-7 damage a turn, makes you're Dark Rituals Giant Growths.

Phyrexian Negator. His drawback is quite bad in the midgame, and will become worse. But he can beat 5 damage a turn and if you've got enough lands to support him, he tramples over small blockers. In this point he might not be as good as confidant, but Negator is so much better turn 1 and 2.

Wretched Anurid. Both cost you life, but Anurid attacks and blocks where Confidant gives you cards. Anurid dodges Pyroclasm and fire // Ice and Mogg Fanatic. In this scenario Confidant might be better. But Anurid can beat the turn after it comes into play, where it is doubt for Confidant.

In you're example, if you assume you're opponent is going to play a creature, you're better off with playing a Arena then a Confidant. Also, the disruption Sui-black packs, isn't for late game. Hymn is dead when you're opponent hasn't got a hand left. Sinkhole isn't great when you're opponent has 4 lands. So I rather seal the deal quickly, then search for threaths and disruption, wich get worse every turn.

AnwarA101
04-26-2006, 12:08 PM
Here is an excerpt from Zvi Mowshowitz's Systemic Thought article from Tuesday April 25th -



These games are about tempo, with two general subtypes. In type one, both players are racing to complete their task first, such as when one person has the advantage on the ground and one has it in the air. In these games, your most important concern is the efficiency of your time and mana. You want to get as much as you can done as quickly as possible, and other considerations don't matter unless they will get in the way. Extra cards don't matter in these games unless one player runs out of cards and therefore things to do with his mana, or he needs to go digging for the tools he needs.


The last part is especially relevant to this conversation. In that extra cards (Confidant) don't matter unless you actually run out of cards and basically can not accomplish your goal with the cards you have in hand. Confidant does not help you do "as much as possible" because he rarely is able deal damage to your opponent (which is your main goal), but Hyppie almost always hits thus helping you accomplish your goal.

Phantom
04-26-2006, 12:22 PM
Without a dark ritual, what is the earliest this deck can win?

FakeSpam
04-26-2006, 12:34 PM
Without a dark ritual, what is the earliest this deck can win?

You will actually kill your opponent sometime around turn 8 or more.

This is my point.

Ewokslayer
04-26-2006, 12:37 PM
Without a Dark Ritual the deck can Goldfish earliest Turn 5.
Which is why the deck plays Dark Ritual.

Phantom
04-26-2006, 12:41 PM
Without a Dark Ritual the deck can Goldfish earliest Turn 5.
Which is why the deck plays Dark Ritual.

Unfortunatly, they don't allow you to run 8.

Caleb
04-26-2006, 12:44 PM
In you're example, if you assume you're opponent is going to play a creature, you're better off with playing a Arena then a Confidant.

What? Have you played with confidant before?

Why do you say confidant gives them a chance to get back into the game? You're drawing more disruption with it, as well as twice as many threats... how is that giving your opponent time? If anything, Confidant takes away their time, as the longer he lives the better your odds are of winning.

Why are you bringing up Wall of Blossoms? Wretched Anurid is pretty crappy when the opp plays a wall of blossoms too, but so what? If you have a second threat on the ground then blossoms is only blocking one of the creatures, so confidant might as well be a hippy then, as far as damage is concerned.


Yes, magic is a game of tempo, but it's also one of options. That's why we run Hymn, to deplete our opponents options so that we can ride our tempo advantage. Confidant gives us more options, which in turn can be converted into tempo when you draw into more threats than your opponent can deal with.

Benie Bederios
04-26-2006, 02:15 PM
What? Have you played with confidant before?

Why do you say confidant gives them a chance to get back into the game? You're drawing more disruption with it, as well as twice as many threats... how is that giving your opponent time? If anything, Confidant takes away their time, as the longer he lives the better your odds are of winning.

Why are you bringing up Wall of Blossoms? Wretched Anurid is pretty crappy when the opp plays a wall of blossoms too, but so what? If you have a second threat on the ground then blossoms is only blocking one of the creatures, so confidant might as well be a hippy then, as far as damage is concerned.


Yes, magic is a game of tempo, but it's also one of options. That's why we run Hymn, to deplete our opponents options so that we can ride our tempo advantage. Confidant gives us more options, which in turn can be converted into tempo when you draw into more threats than your opponent can deal with.

Yes I've played Bw Confidant. In that deck he really shines. But this deck is quite different than Sui-black. Bw Confidant is a control deck, this is aggro, with some control elements. This deck plays more creatures and less disruption. Your late game is bad, whether you have Confidant or not.

All land and hand disruption loose there power overtime. The disruption looses his power after turn 5. As I said before, a sinkhole doesn't hurt when your opponent has 4 lands in play. Hymn to Tourach is bad when you're opponent played his entire hand. Diabolic Edict is not that powerfull if you're opponent has 2 or more creatures. Vendetta will become worse, when you're opponent plays more expensive threaths. So you need to kill as fast as possible, before you're creatures and disruption loose their strength. So Confidant will draw into disruption that becomes weaker and weaker, while the other creatures have a faster clock, or denies you're opponent from cards.

Bw-Confidant plays Engineered Plague, Cursed Scroll, Swords to Plowshare and Vindicate. The first two are reasonably late game and the last two are just great.

FakeSpam
04-26-2006, 07:53 PM
I still fail to see how wretched anurid is better than dark confidant.

URABAHN
04-26-2006, 09:35 PM
In Phantom's build, Dark Confidant is fine. Phantom is proposing a BW Confidant disruption/control aggro deck that more closely resembles Deadguy Ale than Suicide Black. Benie hit it right on the nose when he said the disruption [as seen in Deadguy and Phantom's build] is much better early on than later and Confidant allows you to see more faster. Suicide Black is not about heavy disruption, it's about applying early pressure with cheap, efficient creatures. Contrary to what Caleb thinks, drawing more of these cheap, efficient creatures with Confidant will not help you win.


Sui works with a delicate balance of disruption and threats; drawing too few of either during a game weakens the deck's strategy a great deal. The best argument for Hypnotic Specter's inclusion may likely be that it tries to fulfill both roles, even if it isn't a massive threat. Confidant, lacking evasion, can't really be considered a threat at all, so squeezing him into the list disturbs the disruption:threat:mana ratio the deck relies on.

An active Confidant will obviously fix your draw over time, but that does more to highlight the card's conflict with the Suicide concept than it does to support the card's inclusion in the deck. As others have said, Confidant may help out Suicide in the mid- to late-game, but this comes at an unacceptable expense to the deck's early-game.

Relying on Confidant to do as such means sacrificing your early game to win later, which also I feel is unacceptable. That strategy will play right into the hands of Rifter, Gro, Goblins, Solidarity, Wombat, Iggy Pop, Salvager Combo, Deadguy, and numerous other decks that become more dangerous the longer the game takes.


I still fail to see how wretched anurid is better than dark confidant.

I thought Benie put it pretty plainly, do you not agree with his logic? If not, why?

FakeSpam
04-27-2006, 12:18 PM
I guess I'm going to have to do this the hard way.


Lets assume in you're example you could cast any of you're creatures.

Confidant gives you're opponent the most change to get back in the game.
Hypnotic Specter. Is about the same strength as Confidant, see Obfuscate Freely's post. But it keeps you're opponent hand from growing, deals damage to you're opponent and not to you and has evasion. If you're opponent playes a 1/x threat Specter can chump block it, Confidant Dies to it. if you're opponent has something like a Wall of Blossom( it isn't much played but hell) Hypnotic Specter can attack where Confidant can't.


Where are all these opposing creatures coming from? That, and assuming you can't pave the way for Confidant to actually get in there he still does something. Hypnotic Specter just kinda chills in the face of a blocker. Granted, he gets blocked by less. I would put the two cards at the same power level. Confidant is nice that he only costs 2 mana, only one black, and therefore just a little easier to cast.


Nantuko Shade. Doesn't give card advantage, but is a house lategame. It can block anything without flying and survive. It can beat for 6-7 damage a turn, makes you're Dark Rituals Giant Growths.

I'm not debating Nantuko Shade's late game power. We also aren't debating Confidant's late game power. Let's compare apples to apples. Early on, Nantuko Shade is a 2/1 for 2. Just like Confidant. He will eat up mana to trade or better early threats. Confidant will draw cards and trade with early threats if neccessary.

Everyone keeps saying this is an aggro deck, then they talk about how the creatures suck on D. I didn't know Aggro decks did so much blocking.


Phyrexian Negator. His drawback is quite bad in the midgame, and will become worse. But he can beat 5 damage a turn and if you've got enough lands to support him, he tramples over small blockers. In this point he might not be as good as confidant, but Negator is so much better turn 1 and 2.

Wrong. You don't have the cards in play to support him early on. If you trample over a blocker, you shoot yourself in the foot for development. Basically, you give your opponents the turns back that you took from them with Sinkhole and Hymn.


Wretched Anurid. Both cost you life, but Anurid attacks and blocks where Confidant gives you cards. Anurid dodges Pyroclasm and fire // Ice and Mogg Fanatic. In this scenario Confidant might be better. But Anurid can beat the turn after it comes into play, where it is doubt for Confidant.

Wretched Anurid is a 3/3. That is not a signifigant clock for an "aggro" deck. I would rather put my two mana into something that actually did something. Big deal, so it can swing. Confidant can swing, too. As I said earlier, where are all these blockers coming from? And why can't we just kill them? Also, Wretched Anurid doesn't draw me into more threats. He just sits there and looks all frog-like.



In you're example, if you assume you're opponent is going to play a creature, you're better off with playing a Arena then a Confidant. Also, the disruption Sui-black packs, isn't for late game. Hymn is dead when you're opponent hasn't got a hand left. Sinkhole isn't great when you're opponent has 4 lands. So I rather seal the deal quickly, then search for threaths and disruption, wich get worse every turn.

Arena doesn't beat for two. Arena costs 3 mana.

I think people fail to realize that this is an aggro-control deck. It's not pure aggro. If it was, it would suck completely. You have control elements that you use to get the advantage on your opponents resources so that you can win. In a hand of seven cards you can only sustain this for three turns at most. Drawing extra cards via confidant will allow you to keep them in the stone age while you run over them with your shitty men. This is super-duper important, because when an opponent does finally get the chance to stabilize their deck is most likely better and will quickly destroy you.

Phantom
04-27-2006, 05:21 PM
Leaving the Confidant debate alone, I have some questions/comments about the deck:

1) One drops. I think this deck needs some. Without Rituals, this deck has no turn one play which is pretty awful for a speed deck. I reccomend Carnophage or the enchantment, which actually has good synergy with Negator.

2) Negator. I tested the hell out of this guy because he is so damn tempting, but I just can't see him in the maindeck. Every deck running creatures is running more creatures than you have removal. Any deck running burn can completely ruin your game. Even Thresh usually gets a 3/3 Mongoose up by turn 3, so you might be able to get in 5 damage before you are screwed. In short he has too many horrible matchups (burn, Gobos, Angel Stompy, Zilla Stompy, Faerie Stompy) and mediocre matchups (Thresh, UR Landstill, Rifter) compared to great matchups (UW Landstill, Combo). I have no idea what to replace him with, but Juzaam and Grinning demon are options I guess.

3) Nantuko Shade is a fantastic card, but he's a pretty terrible tempo card. If you lay him second turn, he's hitting like a Confidant unless you have mana to pump him (thus denying you playing a spell that turn). Also, he's pretty much as fragile to removal as Confidant seeing as you probably end about 0 turns with any free mana. This means that even a cycled Slice and Dice spells doom for your 2 drop.

4) Vendetta is simply amazing in this deck, and it's only dead to Pikulas. Color me impressed.

AnwarA101
04-27-2006, 05:41 PM
Leaving the Confidant debate alone, I have some questions/comments about the deck:

2) Negator. I tested the hell out of this guy because he is so damn tempting, but I just can't see him in the maindeck. Every deck running creatures is running more creatures than you have removal. Any deck running burn can completely ruin your game. Even Thresh usually gets a 3/3 Mongoose up by turn 3, so you might be able to get in 5 damage before you are screwed. In short he has too many horrible matchups (burn, Gobos, Angel Stompy, Zilla Stompy, Faerie Stompy) and mediocre matchups (Thresh, UR Landstill, Rifter) compared to great matchups (UW Landstill, Combo). I have no idea what to replace him with, but Juzaam and Grinning demon are options I guess.


I would tend to disagree with your assessment of Negator. I'll grant you that he is horrible against Burn, but he's not terrible against goblins, angel stompy, or Faerie Stompy (though I haven't done much testing against this deck). He's simply bigger than most if not all the creatures played in those decks. Against goblins with or without a ritual he's very good. They have to sacrifice their creatures to block him. Angel Stompy is the same way. Zilla Stompy is only unfavorable because that deck plays burn otherwise it would be okay. Faerie Stompy is so easy to mana-screw as well as removing the 1 or 2 creatures they have played before you do mana-screw them. The other problem with replacing Negator is that their no other comparable creature - Juzam and Grinning Demon both cost 4 and that is just killer in terms of killing the curve (not to mention not as tasty with Dark Ritual). I've beaten goblins so many times with Negator that I've come to the conclusion that he's really good against Goblins.

Eldariel
04-27-2006, 06:04 PM
Phantom: Faerie Stompy hardly has enough presence in any meta to justify any kind of inclusion into any gauntlet at the present.

I'm going to have to agree with Anwar, Negator is just the best card for the slot. A 3-mana 5/5 Trample is just insane and it ends games especially as it converts a non-essential resource (lands) into a warm, cheap body. In my experience, Goblins simply have tons of trouble dealing with anything that's bigger than their whole deck. Again, I don't think Zilla Stompy has enough presence to be included in a gauntlet just yet.

Threshold actually seems kind of interesting; I doubt they'd be willing to trade 1 of their 8-10 threats for a few lands. UGr would of course just Bolt it and call it a day though.

Phantom
04-27-2006, 07:32 PM
Phantom: Faerie Stompy hardly has enough presence in any meta to justify any kind of inclusion into any gauntlet at the present.

I certainly agree with that, but I threw it in there (as well as Zilla) b/c I had actually done the testing. Psionic Blast just makes Negator cry. SoFI on a flyer does the same (we trade damage but you sac 2 permanents while I draw a card).

I found Negator pretty solid off of Ritual vs Thresh, but pretty awful turn three. They are laying 4/4's and 3/3's they would happily trade for all your lands (usually). I was running 12 creatures in the Thresh build though, so maybe that's a little off.

I can't understand at all how he is decent vs. Goblins. They will block him every turn, doing 1-2 damage (this plays into there mana denial a little too). Then they will attack and prob do as much damage as your Negator. And god forbid a bolt or incinerator get aimed his way.


I'm going to have to agree with Anwar, Negator is just the best card for the slot. A 3-mana 5/5 Trample is just insane and it ends games especially as it converts a non-essential resource (lands) into a warm, cheap body.

When he's powered out first turn, lands are pretty damn essential, aren't they.

Hell, I'm not even arguing that he's not the best card for the spot, but if he's in your board, he can still play in 66% of the matchups where he rocks without costing you the first game of already unfavorable matchups.

In short: I'm saying that at least he needs to be looked at and considered for the sideboard.

URABAHN
04-27-2006, 07:40 PM
Where are all these opposing creatures coming from? That, and assuming you can't pave the way for Confidant to actually get in there he still does something. Hypnotic Specter just kinda chills in the face of a blocker. Granted, he gets blocked by less. I would put the two cards at the same power level. Confidant is nice that he only costs 2 mana, only one black, and therefore just a little easier to cast.

How many creatures are actually played in this format that can block Hippie and kill it? How many of those can be taken out via Vendetta, Edict, StP, or Vindicate?


I'm not debating Nantuko Shade's late game power. We also aren't debating Confidant's late game power. Let's compare apples to apples. Early on, Nantuko Shade is a 2/1 for 2. Just like Confidant. He will eat up mana to trade or better early threats. Confidant will draw cards and trade with early threats if neccessary.

Next turn, Shade can be a 5/4, Confidant will flip over a card. I think I'd rather have the 5/4 in a traditional aggro SuiBlack build.


Everyone keeps saying this is an aggro deck, then they talk about how the creatures suck on D. I didn't know Aggro decks did so much blocking.

If Suicide Black is forced to start blocking, they're going to lose. You're right, Fake Spam, Suicide Black is about offense. Negator and Shade have it, Confidant doesn't.


Wrong. You don't have the cards in play to support him early on. If you trample over a blocker, you shoot yourself in the foot for development. Basically, you give your opponents the turns back that you took from them with Sinkhole and Hymn.

Either your testing with Negator is flawed or you've never played with Negator, because what you've just said is completely false. See AnwarA101's post before this one.


Wretched Anurid is a 3/3. That is not a signifigant clock for an "aggro" deck. I would rather put my two mana into something that actually did something. Big deal, so it can swing. Confidant can swing, too. As I said earlier, where are all these blockers coming from? And why can't we just kill them? Also, Wretched Anurid doesn't draw me into more threats. He just sits there and looks all frog-like.

Suicide Black does not depend solely on a 3/3. When combined with the other cheap threats, you've a fast enough clock that becomes a significant threat. As it's been explained multiple times, 2/1 Confidant is not a threat even when combined with the other threats in the deck because it dies too easy or doesn't attack at all. I know that even with AnwarA101's build, which doesn't run StP or Vindicate, you could easily remove an early blocker for your Confidant. That doesn't make Confidant harder to kill though. The two extra toughness you get from Anurid does make Anurid harder to kill.


Arena doesn't beat for two. Arena costs 3 mana.

Arena would also take 2 turns to reach the card advantage Night's Whisper does. If I really wanted to draw more cards in Suicide Black, I'd run Night's Whisper.


I think people fail to realize that this is an aggro-control deck. It's not pure aggro. If it was, it would suck completely. You have control elements that you use to get the advantage on your opponents resources so that you can win. In a hand of seven cards you can only sustain this for three turns at most. Drawing extra cards via confidant will allow you to keep them in the stone age while you run over them with your shitty men. This is super-duper important, because when an opponent does finally get the chance to stabilize their deck is most likely better and will quickly destroy you.

And what's why Phantom's aggro-control build needs to be put elsewhere. Could someone please make that happen?

Phantom
04-27-2006, 08:29 PM
And what's why Phantom's aggro-control build needs to be put elsewhere. Could someone please make that happen?

I would but I honestly haven't done a damn bit of testing (and the testing I did was so/so). Plus, it might be too close to Pikulas to deserve it's own thread.

AnwarA101
04-27-2006, 08:52 PM
I can't understand at all how he is decent vs. Goblins. They will block him every turn, doing 1-2 damage (this plays into there mana denial a little too). Then they will attack and prob do as much damage as your Negator. And god forbid a bolt or incinerator get aimed his way.

When he's powered out first turn, lands are pretty damn essential, aren't they.


What you don't understand is that Goblins is a very bad defensive deck. Its creatures suck on defense - Goblin Piledriver, Goblin Matron, and even Goblin Ringleader are only 1/2, 1/1, or 2/2 on defense. Goblins just doesn't do well when someone else is the aggressor against the deck. If you've played Threshold and started swinging with 4/4s and 3/3s then you know how hard it is for the Goblin player to win. That is even more true with a first turn Negator. It simply puts Goblins on the defensive because they must block or die. Goblins also has very little way to generate pressure in the early game (except for a Lackey that hits) and this lack of offense in the very early game causes it to go on defense which makes it a tough matchup. Negator on turn 3 is very strong as well, because a turn 2 Sinkhole can buy much needed time and setting your goblin opponent back one more turn without Warchief or Ringleader. Suicide Black is the beatdown in the matchup - and you have to see that.

FakeSpam
04-28-2006, 12:36 PM
Screw this thread. I'm out.

kabal
04-30-2006, 12:15 PM
What you don't understand is that Goblins is a very bad defensive deck. Its creatures suck on defense - Goblin Piledriver, Goblin Matron, and even Goblin Ringleader are only 1/2, 1/1, or 2/2 on defense.

That is beside the point. Goblin's does run Gempalm Incinerator typical in the form of 4s in the main. Lets not forgot Mogg Fanatic. Some builds play Pyrokinesis in the main, or least in the board.

So sure goblins aren't good on defense, but a few of them dub as burn. Which as you stated earlier, turns Negator into a toilet cake.

Dr.ugs
04-30-2006, 01:06 PM
What you don't understand is that Goblins is a very bad defensive deck. Its creatures suck on defense - Goblin Piledriver, Goblin Matron, and even Goblin Ringleader are only 1/2, 1/1, or 2/2 on defense. Goblins just doesn't do well when someone else is the aggressor against the deck. If you've played Threshold and started swinging with 4/4s and 3/3s then you know how hard it is for the Goblin player to win. That is even more true with a first turn Negator. It simply puts Goblins on the defensive because they must block or die. Goblins also has very little way to generate pressure in the early game (except for a Lackey that hits) and this lack of offense in the very early game causes it to go on defense which makes it a tough matchup. Negator on turn 3 is very strong as well, because a turn 2 Sinkhole can buy much needed time and setting your goblin opponent back one more turn without Warchief or Ringleader. Suicide Black is the beatdown in the matchup - and you have to see that.


What you don´t understand that against aggro decks Goblins are good in defense as well.When they set up a Goblin King their creatures will trade with your ones.Also bad that they have run a full set of Incinirators which will take down every single creature you are running.Also you won´t be able to play that aggressive against a Deck with Warchiefs,Piledrivers and Golbin Lackey.Goblin Sharpshooter,Mogg Fanatic,Siege Gang Commander,Sparsmith,Kiki are also quite good defensive cards..

Obfuscate Freely
04-30-2006, 02:21 PM
That is beside the point. Goblin's does run Gempalm Incinerator typical in the form of 4s in the main. Lets not forgot Mogg Fanatic. Some builds play Pyrokinesis in the main, or least in the board.

So sure goblins aren't good on defense, but a few of them dub as burn. Which as you stated earlier, turns Negator into a toilet cake.

What you don´t understand that against aggro decks Goblins are good in defense as well.When they set up a Goblin King their creatures will trade with your ones.Also bad that they have run a full set of Incinirators which will take down every single creature you are running.Also you won´t be able to play that aggressive against a Deck with Warchiefs,Piledrivers and Golbin Lackey.Goblin Sharpshooter,Mogg Fanatic,Siege Gang Commander,Sparsmith,Kiki are also quite good defensive cards..
Anwar is fully aware of Gempalm Incinerator, Mogg Fanatic, and everything else in Goblins. The fact remains that Negator is solid against the deck, and if you think otherwise, you're discrediting hours and hours of playtesting and tournament results.

On the defense, Goblins has very slow board development up until turn 4 or 5. The 1-drops are all tiny 1/1s, there are almost no 2-drops (the one they have is an abysmal 1/2), and the 3-drops are also small for their cost. An early Negator that is backed up by just a little disruption (a Sinkhole, Hymn, or a removal spell) will look very large in comparison to the Goblin player's board. A Gempalm Incinerator will probably not cycle for more than 2 damage, and will probably take up an entire turn's worth of mana.

If Goblins blocks the Negator when it comes in, the Negator won't die, and all of the Goblins will. At this point, any extra disruption or threats that Sui is able to play before or after attacking with Negator will put Goblins in a very bad position. Gempalm Incinerator is pretty weak when there are no Goblins in play, and Siege-Gang Commander is pretty weak when you're dead before you can cast him.

I'm not saying that Goblins will never win on the back of Negator's drawback. If Sui stumbles in the first few turns and Goblins develops a decent-sized board, Incinerator on a Negator will win the game. However, this happens relatively rarely, and it usually happens in games that Suicide was going to lose, anyway.

Again, Anwar, powergamer, and I have a lot of experience with this list of Suicide Black against Goblins. I suggest that you try to gain some experience yourself before dismissing what we have to say.

AnwarA101
04-30-2006, 02:29 PM
That is beside the point. Goblin's does run Gempalm Incinerator typical in the form of 4s in the main. Lets not forgot Mogg Fanatic. Some builds play Pyrokinesis in the main, or least in the board.

So sure goblins aren't good on defense, but a few of them dub as burn. Which as you stated earlier, turns Negator into a toilet cake.

Gempalm Incinerator requires Goblins to be in play. The build on the first page of this thread runs both 7 removal spells and pithing needle all of which stop Incinerator or make Incinerator dead in the early game by destroying Goblins creatures in response. I will grant you any version playing Pyrokinesis in the maindeck will absolutely ravage Negator.



What you don´t understand that against aggro decks Goblins are good in defense as well.When they set up a Goblin King their creatures will trade with your ones.Also bad that they have run a full set of Incinirators which will take down every single creature you are running.Also you won´t be able to play that aggressive against a Deck with Warchiefs,Piledrivers and Golbin Lackey.Goblin Sharpshooter,Mogg Fanatic,Siege Gang Commander,Sparsmith,Kiki are also quite good defensive cards..


Many of these cards either cost 3 or more mana (Warchief, Sharpshooter, Siege-Gang, Goblin King) which means that there are many ways for the Suicide to handle them such as Sinkhole (which buys another turn or more), Hymn to Tourach, 7 removal spells, and Pithing Needle if it is being played in the maindeck. I've already answered the Incinerator issue above.

I'm not claiming Goblins to be a positive matchup. I stated it was about 40/60 and I'm sticking with that because I have done extensive testing. The testing can vary wildly especially in game 1 because Dark Ritual is so important.

3eowulf
05-17-2006, 08:30 AM
Forewords
Ok, i admit this deck has been criticized endless times (and eventually discarded as a good contender), but i really believe it has potential.
Heck, Pikula played something similiar and now everybody loves homebrew, why is that no one considered again "good-old suicide"?

I know this archetype is older than my magic experience (and i regret a little posting it, since i really believe Legacy needs some more archetype innovation), and this particular deck has very few novelties, but i feel it includes some considerations others of his kind were missing...

Last: this decklist is about more than a year old, still i evaluated changes after the release of the newer sets and the evolving of the metagame. Unfotunately my playtesting result are old and few, since legacy isn't played in my area.

Decklist
// Lands
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
10 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold

// Acceleration
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual

// Creatures
4 Hypnotic Specter
2 Withered Wretch

// Spells
3 Rancid Earth
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress
2 Chainer's Edict
2 Engineered Plague
4 Contagion
2 Consume Spirit
3 Infernal Contract

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 Withered Wretch
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Nevinyrral's Disk
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt

as you can notice the deck is really suicidal, and not just a black stompy, it counts on a heavy disruption package early game (even at the cost of card disadvantage/heavy life loss) to impede the opponent's game.

Card Analisys
4 Mishra's Factory
even tought it can hurt the mana base it's really a "must 4-ofs" in a fast aggro format, useful as a "fat" blocker or a beater.
3 Wasteland
in a format of tight mana bases where every land drop counts and full of non-basics who wouldn't want it? 3-ofs because of the complementary spells.
10 Swamp
well, the card is self explanatory :tongue: , the number should be correct.
1 Volrath's Stronghold
in the awful case we go in the long game, always useful.
4 Chrome Mox
we need much acceleration, even if it means card disadvantage, and the mox has staying power. We need 4 to get it early, unfortunately it's terrible later on.
4 Dark Ritual
what does make the deck good? Dark Ritual speed has a part in it...
4 Hypnotic Specter
someone underrate this, but a decent cover he's really good. Just don't power him out in the first turn, unless you know what you'r doing!
2 Withered Wretch
2/2 for BB... not really that awesome, still he has a really good ability...
that's why only 2-ofs.
3 Rancid Earth
land destruction at 3cc isn't good, expecially in mid-game? Try this, expecially with an EPlague on board. 3 looked like the right amount.
4 Sinkhole
coupled with Wasteland, supplemented with Rancid Earth, maybe it'll teach other decks to cheat less on their mana bases...
4 Hymn to Tourach
Misdirection is it's only weak spot, otherwise it's goood, can even hit land drops! Graveyard based decks will thank you, that's why whe have Wretches and the sb.
4 Duress
a "must 4-ofs".
2 Chainer's Edict
untargeted creature kill, sorcery speed, but reusable in the dreaded long game.
2 Engineered Plague
really underrated! It's not needed in multiples to be effective nor it's useful only against goblins. Makes opposing creatures smaller and has a good sinergy with Rancid Earth and Contagion.
4 Contagion
not really card disadvantage since it's usually a 2-for-2 tradeoff. Instant creature removal... it's good, what else can i say? Only pity is the black card has to be rfg and thus doesn't help Rancid Earth.
2 Consume Spirit
direct damage and only source of life gain. Useless in the start (that's why i'm not running a full set), but you'll really want one later, trust me.
3 Infernal Contract
before flaming read the card! It gives you 4 cards, NOW! at the cost of 10 life (if you are still at 20), an average of 2.5 life/card. The only mean to drop an hell of disruption at your opponent, refill your hand and start again. Only problem is the BBB cc, which can be difficult at times.

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
i don't really recall why i packed these.
SB: 2 Withered Wretch
when graveyard hate isn't enought.
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
usually for goblins. Or any other silly tribal deck.
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
play it wisely, and will wreck the opponent leaving you nearly unscathed.
SB: 4 Nevinyrral's Disk
sometimes i found i wanted a reset button, expecially since i can't touch artifacts or enchantments on board.
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
maybe gy hate is never enought.

calosso
05-17-2006, 08:33 AM
There are no real win conditions you can really depend on 4 hippies and wretches. Factories are to vulnerable to wasteland. Why do you have acceleration if there are no creatures to drop with it?

3eowulf
05-17-2006, 08:42 AM
Various Cards Choiches

Fetchlands
they were left out since i feeled the land ratio was good enought without any thinnig.

Cabal Therapy
how many times it's better then Duress if i ain't got creatures to sacrifice to flashback it? NONE.

Nantuko Shade
while it sure wuold help the late game, early on it's totally useless: with no mana to spare on this it's a 2/1 (so no blocking) without evasion (no attacking) and no usefull abilities.

Dark Confidant
welcome, mr. Overrated! It's only advantages are the casting cost, and the "add to your hand (instead of drawing)" that could couple with Chains of Mephistopheles. Being a creature (a 2/1 ever more!) and losing you variable life means in this format it's plain worst than Phyrexian Arena. Plus as does Phyrexian Arena, it brings extra cards too slowly for my likings.

Phyrexian Negator
while i really miss a fast finisher, he really isn't going to get it given the format.

calosso
05-17-2006, 08:46 AM
Various Cards Choiches

Fetchlands
they were left out since i feeled the land ratio was good enought without any thinnig.

Cabal Therapy
how many times it's better then Duress if i ain't got creatures to sacrifice to flashback it? NONE.

Nantuko Shade
while it sure wuold help the late game, early on it's totally useless: with no mana to spare on this it's a 2/1 (so no blocking) without evasion (no attacking) and no usefull abilities.

Dark Confidant
welcome, mr. Overrated! It's only advantages are the casting cost, and the "add to your hand (instead of drawing)" that could couple with Chains of Mephistopheles. Being a creature (a 2/1 ever more!) and losing you variable life means in this format it's plain worst than Phyrexian Arena. Plus as does Phyrexian Arena, it brings extra cards too slowly for my likings.

Phyrexian Negator
while i really miss a fast finisher, he really isn't going to get it given the format.


I play goblins in almost every major tournament I go to. If you drop first turn negator on a goblin player it is very hard to fight back unless I have 2 fanatics in my opening hand. Nantuko Shade would be better in you deck since you run chrome mox(which suck BTW) and dark ritual.

3eowulf
05-17-2006, 08:47 AM
@ calosso:
The acceleration is to power out such disruption the opponent can't recover.
If anyones wastes my factories it means they have even more lands now.
Unfortunately a faster kill condition is really what is missing, still hippies, wretches and factories (and maybe consume spirits) are pretty good at killing, even if really slow.

3eowulf
05-17-2006, 08:50 AM
I really miss the point in which a first turn negator is ever good vs. any deck with cheap creatures...

And shade isn't good if i'm spending my mana to disrupt you. I have no mana to sink into her.

Obfuscate Freely
05-17-2006, 09:14 AM
There is already a thread discussing classic Suicide Black here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3451).

Your deck looks more like a Monoblack Control list, though. A good build of that can be found here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3231).

If you do want to stick with a "Suicide Black" (aggressive) strategy, then you definitely need more threats and a faster clock. Phyrexian Negator and Nantuko Shade are the best threats black has available in this format.

To get you started in the right direction, here is AnwarA101's list from the thread I linked:

//Disruption
3 Pithing Needle
4 Hymn To Tourach
4 Sinkhole

//The Legion of Doom
4 Wretched Anurid
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Phyrexian Negator

//Removal
4 Vendetta
4 Diabolic Edict

//Mana
4 Dark Ritual
4 Wasteland
17 Swamps

Anwar has since gone back to running the full 4 copies of Duress, cutting the Needles (to the board) and a removal spell.

This deck has enjoyed moderate success at tournaments, and is a good place to start at with the Sui archetype. It does take some getting used to, since it relies heavily on its opening hands and sometimes has to play into an opponent's potential outs pretty severely. However, the deck is very capable of ending the game quickly against a stumbling opponent, which holds true to the concept of Suicide Black.

3eowulf
05-17-2006, 09:31 AM
thank you for the directions, i couldn't find AnwarA101 thread :tongue:

could any moderator attach this thread to that?
even though this looks like more Control i ensure you it plays like suicide.

plus, if after long playtesting you still consider the Negator worth a main slot i can give it a chance... even i don't know what to cut
maybe:
+4 Negators
-2 Wretches
-2 ?
Done and done. Threads merged.

~ Nightmare

AnwarA101
05-17-2006, 12:21 PM
thank you for the directions, i couldn't find AnwarA101 thread :tongue:

could any moderator attach this thread to that?
even though this looks like more Control i ensure you it plays like suicide.

plus, if after long playtesting you still consider the Negator worth a main slot i can give it a chance... even i don't know what to cut
maybe:
+4 Negators
-2 Wretches
-2 ?
Done and done. Threads merged.

~ Nightmare


If you are going to run Negator then I would try something similar to the list that ObFreely just referenced. If you plan to play a more Control version of the deck play the deck close to what is listed in the Train Wreck deck list. I don't see how adding Negator but keeping all that creature removal will really work. For the "Suicide concept" to work you need enough threats to actually kill your opponent quickly. I think you really need to pick which direction to go in. You can't just run 4 Negator and 4 Hypnotic Specters that won't be enough threats. Its just a choice in strategy - you seem somewhere in between.

3eowulf
05-17-2006, 12:32 PM
Is there any other threat fast and efficient enought to warrant inclusion?
How i am expected to keep my creatures going without creature removal in an aggro enviroment?
As long as the opponent is playing threshold it's pretty easy, but when it comes to a zoo or a goblin player the board is theirs if i ain't got enought removal...

AnwarA101
05-17-2006, 12:55 PM
Is there any other threat fast and efficient enought to warrant inclusion?
How i am expected to keep my creatures going without creature removal in an aggro enviroment?
As long as the opponent is playing threshold it's pretty easy, but when it comes to a zoo or a goblin player the board is theirs if i ain't got enought removal...

I'm playing the threats that I think are fast and efficient. Wretched Anurid, Phyrexian Negator, Nantuko Shade, and Hypnotic Specter are all fairly fast and efficient (except probably Hyppie). You are the aggro deck against Goblins and Zoo. You play a a threat and you try to protect it with disruption - Hymn, Sinkhole, Wasteland, Vendetta, Edict, etc. Its simply the way the deck plays. If you want to go control then Train Wreck plays plenty of removal spells to handle creatures.

3eowulf
05-17-2006, 01:19 PM
Apart form the fact that my list (considering Mishras) has only 4x threats less that the one suggested by Obfuscate Freely (so, do you think Mishras should be removed for another, better creature?)...

Do you really think that vs. Goblins, and expecially Zoo (which has much better creatures) our role is beatdown?

My list figures only 8 creature removal (2xChainer's, 2xEPlague, 4xContagion, Rancid Earth and Consume Spirit are not), as much as OFreely's, how it's too much? The major difference is it drops a beater to add some draw and a bit more disruption...

(by the way, don't you think Contagion is superior to Vendetta?)

calosso
05-17-2006, 02:43 PM
Plague isn't really a removal spell versus zoo.

AnwarA101
05-17-2006, 02:52 PM
Apart form the fact that my list (considering Mishras) has only 4x threats less that the one suggested by Obfuscate Freely (so, do you think Mishras should be removed for another, better creature?)...

Do you really think that vs. Goblins, and expecially Zoo (which has much better creatures) our role is beatdown?

My list figures only 8 creature removal (2xChainer's, 2xEPlague, 4xContagion, Rancid Earth and Consume Spirit are not), as much as OFreely's, how it's too much? The major difference is it drops a beater to add some draw and a bit more disruption...

(by the way, don't you think Contagion is superior to Vendetta?)

I think Mishra's is poor for several reasons. The first is that you are only running 14 black sources which is very low. I'm pretty sure you can't get turn 2 BB with such a low amount of black sources. Mishra and Wasteland have caused you to reduce your black sources which is terrible.

Yes you are the beatdown vs. Goblins and Zoo. I'm not sure you can play any other role effectively - though your list might be able to.

Contagion removes another card in your hand which may leave you with too few cards in hand. I think Vendetta is very efficient for what it does. Its one mana to kill almost any creature in the format except for a few.

3eowulf
05-17-2006, 03:35 PM
Plague isn't really a removal spell versus zoo.
Sometimes it's removal, other it does only coupled with Contagion/Rancid Earth, still it makes combat much more favorable for me.



I think Mishra's is poor for several reasons. The first is that you are only running 14 black sources which is very low. I'm pretty sure you can't get turn 2 BB with such a low amount of black sources. Mishra and Wasteland have caused you to reduce your black sources which is terrible.
Although i usually can get BB on turn two, i sometimes struggle i bit to find the third black source. Maybe i should do some testing with more black sources and maybe another threat instead of Factories...


Contagion removes another card in your hand which may leave you with too few cards in hand. I think Vendetta is very efficient for what it does. Its one mana to kill almost any creature in the format except for a few.
Contagion for free can, if not kill, at least neuter even 2 creatures.
Still i probably wouldn't run it without card drawing. That's why i use Infernal Contract... :confused: still no comments about it? I expected a lot of flaming for it's inclusion in a non-combo deck!

AnwarA101
05-17-2006, 03:56 PM
Contagion for free can, if not kill, at least neuter even 2 creatures.
Still i probably wouldn't run it without card drawing. That's why i use Infernal Contract... :confused: still no comments about it? I expected a lot of flaming for it's inclusion in a non-combo deck!


Infernal Contract is pretty good draw, but I think its probably not playable against aggro. Contract might be better than Confidant in this deck - at least it puts 4 cards in your hand right now.

3eowulf
05-17-2006, 04:09 PM
Infernal Contract is pretty good draw, but I think its probably not playable against aggro. Contract might be better than Confidant in this deck - at least it puts 4 cards in your hand right now.
Looks like we have a common point :wink:

Do you have an updated list of your deck? I'd like to make a comparison...

AnwarA101
05-17-2006, 04:15 PM
Looks like we have a common point :wink:

Do you have an updated list of your deck? I'd like to make a comparison...

Well its pretty much exactly as ObFreely posted on the last page with the addition of Duress

//Disruption
4 Duress
4 Hymn To Tourach
4 Sinkhole

//The Legion of Doom
4 Wretched Anurid
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Phyrexian Negator

//Removal
3 Vendetta
4 Diabolic Edict

//Mana
4 Dark Ritual
4 Wasteland
17 Swamps

//Sideboard
4 Infest
3 Dystopia
3 Pithing Needle
3 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 (Metagame slot)

I'm not sure about the sideboard, but that's basically what I ran at the Duel for Duals in February.

worsel
05-17-2006, 04:17 PM
Anwar has since gone back to running the full 4 copies of Duress, cutting the Needles (to the board) and a removal spell.

Which one removal spell has been cut; 1 Vendetta, or, 1 Diabolic Edict?

Also, what does the sideboard look like?

Maybe an updated list c/w sideboard would be a good idea.

Thanks :smile:

Nevermind... I see it above me there now... you must have done it while I was writing mine.

3eowulf
05-17-2006, 04:27 PM
How do you feel playing without card drawing? Wouldn't even Night's Whisper help a little?

Krieger
05-18-2006, 06:55 PM
How do you feel playing without card drawing? Wouldn't even Night's Whisper help a little?

This deck is all about tempo. If you are casting Night's Whisper then that means you are not casting a creature or not disrupting them. This deck must do that within the first few turns to survive. Suicide has an awful late game so it must win in the midgame. there will never be a point in time that you would want to cast Night's Whisper because you would want to cast Hymn or Sinkhole first or lay another creature.

3eowulf
05-18-2006, 07:21 PM
This deck is all about tempo. If you are casting Night's Wisper then that means you are not casting a creature or not disrupting them. This deck must do that within the first few turns to survive. Suicide has an awful late game so it must win in the midgame. there will never be a point in time that you would want to cast Night's Wisper because you would want to cast Hymn or Sinkhole first or lay another creature.
I know it's about tempo, but i also know that while we can achieve a big tempo swing in the early game, in the mid game tempo tends to even out (due to our lack of spells/opponent having better ones).

I'm asking if a draw spell could help keeping the pace in the mid-game (when hymns or sinks are much less useful), sure i wouldn't play it earlier! (that's why not a full set of draw spells, and something that draws instantly and not in the long run like Arena or Bob)

Krieger
05-19-2006, 05:23 PM
I can’t think of any card that I would want Night's Whisper to replace. If you had Night's Whisper then you would lose a card that is strong and makes it so that you can survive the early game. I would be very hesitant to add it in. If you draw it in the early game it would be just clog up your hand. Against decks like Solidarity it would be as bad as drawing and Edict or Vendetta because if you do not put the right amount of pressure and disruption you will lose. If you could possibly suggest how to fit it in to the list without hurting your game plan please do so.

tylerwylie
04-21-2007, 09:38 PM
I'm working on a version of this deck now, I still think it is competent.

4 Black Knight
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Phyrexian Negator
4 Sarcomancy
4 Carnophage
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Dark Confidant
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Dark Ritual
4 Wasteland or Mishra's Factory, still deciding.
15 Swamp

The real secret here is Black Knight, which is amazing. I don't know if you'd still call this sui black, but it's aggressive and can kill early, I'm also testing between Vendetta and Snuff Out, maybe cutting something else for more removal.

C.P.
04-21-2007, 10:14 PM
I'm working on a version of this deck now, I still think it is competent.

4 Black Knight
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Phyrexian Negator
4 Sarcomancy
4 Carnophage
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Dark Confidant
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Dark Ritual
4 Wasteland or Mishra's Factory, still deciding.
15 Swamp

The real secret here is Black Knight, which is amazing. I don't know if you'd still call this sui black, but it's aggressive and can kill early, I'm also testing between Vendetta and Snuff Out, maybe cutting something else for more removal.

It looks like a Sui Black to me, and this is coming froma guy who played the deck since T2 days and still playing it. I found Theraphy to be better in the decks that runs 8 zombies. Edict is good, but it is not the best removal in the current format, and I'd rather run something like vendetta. I posted a similar deck in development forum couple month ago, it might be helpful.

Anyway, the problem with 8 zombies is that it suck aginst mass removal and goblins. Yes, you do have plague SB, but it does not help you.

Clark Kant
04-22-2007, 02:39 AM
I sometimes sub out 24 cards from my Vaka Pox deck to make a Sui Black deck for casual play. You can only keep your opponents from going past their first land so many games before they refuse to play the deck for the rest of the day.

It's a lot of fun and a pretty good performer though not as consistent as Vaka Pox...

5 Swamp
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Polluted Delta

4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
2 Gerrard's Verdict
2 Swords to Plowshare

3 Rotting Giant
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Phyrexian Negator

Dark Confidant might be Nantuko Shade if I had any. I'm also considering making room for some Sarcomancy or additional Swords but I'm fairly sure all of the other cards are very optimal.

I will likely put in Judge Unworthy over Swords once Future Sight comes out.

f|i[p]
04-22-2007, 12:00 PM
If your going to splash white, you might as well add a pair of jotun grunts...

technogeek5000
04-27-2007, 11:18 AM
Hi, im going to be playing sui black at the 4x tundra tourney at dragon's lair. My mana base is 18 swamps and 2 wastelands (not including dark ritual). Is it worth it for me to open up my self to wastelands and add 2 urbog, or should i run 1 more wasteland.

Oh and my creature removal is 4x diabolic edict, 2 ghastly demise, and 1 contaigon. Contaigon has been working for me because of its instant speed. Normally ill save it in my hand for the combat phase and contaigon two creatures netting me a extremely better board position. Also sui puts cards in the grave fast enough so ghastly demise has been working for me better then Vendetta.

tylerwylie
04-27-2007, 01:44 PM
Hi, im going to be playing sui black at the 4x tundra tourney at dragon's lair. My mana base is 18 swamps and 2 wastelands (not including dark ritual). Is it worth it for me to open up my self to wastelands and add 2 urbog, or should i run 1 more wasteland.

Oh and my creature removal is 4x diabolic edict, 2 ghastly demise, and 1 contaigon. Contaigon has been working for me because of its instant speed. Normally ill save it in my hand for the combat phase and contaigon two creatures netting me a extremely better board position. Also sui puts cards in the grave fast enough so ghastly demise has been working for me better then Vendetta.

For removal I run 4 Diabolic Edict 3 Vendetta, Ghastly Demise would work too. I'd run 4 Wasteland, easily if you want, I prefer running 3 Mishra's Factories instead, as it's another beater that can speed up the clock. I also run 2 Cabal Pits as a way to kill pro-black m-fer's.

blackguard90
04-30-2007, 11:20 AM
In my opinion, the only thing that Suicide Black has over Red Death is Diabolic Edict. Although the Edict does not provide reach, it kills otherwise unkillable things (exalted, mongoose, mystic enf, TARMOGOYF, threshed-wearbears, etc).

A funny thing is that the only thing keeping suicide black from being a tier 1, 1.5 deck is reach. I just run out of gas sometimes playing sui-black, and the lucky threshold bastard just top decked a swords to kill my shade while he's sitting at 2 life and I have a handful of disruption. Thats where Red Death comes in, the expensive brother of sui black (estimated 350 dollars to build).

To the guy going to the 4x Tundra tourney:
If you have fetches, chain lightnings and a few badlands (maybe blood crypt) I suggest you play Red Death (go to legacy metagame forum), as it have that "POW" that makes it so much better. Ghastly demise... hmmm.... Whatever, its not that horrible.

At Tyler Wylie: Is 4 pieces of removal enough? I personnally think that you wouldn't want your opponents blocking your guys. Also, wasteland isn't that good without sinkhole to complement it. Just play swamps.

And finnally: NO to the card drawing strat. the only worthwhile CONSIDERATION is dark confidant in place of Anurid. We've probably been through this a million times, but BOB is not that bad in testing. It helps you survive mid-game/late game.

Nihil Credo
04-30-2007, 06:48 PM
I hate popping up in threads that I haven't completely read, but I did a search and this card received no discussion: since lack of reach is a huge problem for Suicide Black, has Cursed Scroll been considered for the deck? It's slow as hell, but short of a Needle or a Deed there's not much the defender can do to stop it from dealing the final 4-6 points of damage. If you often find yourself just a couple of hits away from killing your opponent, Scroll can be a decent proxy for Red Death's burn spells.

Another option would be to sideboard the Scrolls and bring them in against control and Threshold, to finish them after they've dropped a bunch of 4/4 and removed your creatures (does Threshold keep in Needles against Sui-black? They hit Shade and Wasteland, but Thresh often has Control Magic and Engineered Explosives to bring in).

blackguard90
05-03-2007, 02:18 PM
I hate popping up in threads that I haven't completely read, but I did a search and this card received no discussion: since lack of reach is a huge problem for Suicide Black, has Cursed Scroll been considered for the deck? It's slow as hell, but short of a Needle or a Deed there's not much the defender can do to stop it from dealing the final 4-6 points of damage. If you often find yourself just a couple of hits away from killing your opponent, Scroll can be a decent proxy for Red Death's burn spells.

Another option would be to sideboard the Scrolls and bring them in against control and Threshold, to finish them after they've dropped a bunch of 4/4 and removed your creatures (does Threshold keep in Needles against Sui-black? They hit Shade and Wasteland, but Thresh often has Control Magic and Engineered Explosives to bring in).

Yes, I have played 2 scrolls in the deck before. I was very satisfied with the results, but I still didn't find that to be enough reach. A few problems with the scroll are:

1) 3 mana is too much because it restricts you from playing threats etc. and pumping shade.
2) 2 damage is too little for 3 mana
3) you need 9 mana to do what 2 mana does in red death


A really, really suicidal (it might work) idea is karvek's Spite lol! its like a fireblast!, but how many do you want in the deck? 4 is overcrowding, and at 2 you might not find it.

Wizards need to make broken black burn spells and more negators for suicide players.

technogeek5000
05-09-2007, 01:08 PM
I was thinking to solve this decks problem of lack of reach, instead of splashing red, we could use a small splash for white (not anywhere close to deadguy, something like 4-8 cards). This gives you swords(#1 removal spell printed so far), vindicate if you want, and a better sideboard. I probably wouldnt add anymore then 8 maindeck because it weakens the best card in the deck... dark ritual.

Clark Kant
05-11-2007, 04:28 PM
Technogeek, I've been doing the same thing for casual play. So I would love to hear what your thoughts on it are.


I sometimes sub out 24 cards from my Vaka Pox deck to make a Sui Black deck for casual play. You can only keep your opponents from going past their first land so many games before they refuse to play the deck for the rest of the day.

5 Swamp
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Polluted Delta

4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
2 Gerrard's Verdict
2 Swords to Plowshare

3 Rotting Giant
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Phyrexian Negator

I will likely put in Judge Unworthy over Swords once Future Sight comes out.

Currently, I'm subbing in Jotun Grunts in place of 2 Rotting Giant, and once I get them will run Nantuko Shade over Dark Confidant.

Or instead of Jotun Grunt, I'm looking at 2-3 Tombstalker in place since they've been working so well in Vaka Pox.

CalebD
05-12-2007, 03:31 AM
Here's something I'll be playing in either the grinders or the GP itself (I don't want to use the same deck for both)

// Lands
3 [EX] City of Traitors
2 [SOK] Tomb of Urami
3 [MI] Crystal Vein
10 [MM] Swamp (4)

// Creatures
4 [UD] Phyrexian Negator
3 [TSP] Plague Sliver
3 [R] Juggernaut
4 [US] Priest of Gix
4 [TO] Mesmeric Fiend (crazy good against hulk)
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [A] Dark Ritual
4 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice (turns wimps into clocks)
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [7E] Duress

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 [CHK] Night of Souls' Betrayal

The 8x accelerants make it so that you're sure to be able to get down confidant/fiend turn one. If you draw a ritual and a mox a lot of the time the correct play is to simply imprint the ritual. Priest of gix is much better than he looks. Dark rit, priest, priest, gator can be a turn 3 kill, and turn one priest-gator followed by a turn 2 5/x is a turn 3 as well. A lot of the time he's a free creature that beats for a couple then flashbacks therapy. Don't forget that he can turn colorless mana into black mana for multiple discard spells, or sacking the tomb. Tomb of Urami is better here than it is in most decks, as your discard lets you take out their removal, saccing 2-3 lands doesn't cripple you with all the mox/rits, and you can create the 5/5 flyer very, very early. In conjunction with another early 5/x or two and discard it can be simply too much for the control/aggro control deck to handle.

The deck has a solid game against Hulk, Thresh, and other combo. The matchup against gobblins varies from build to build, the mono red version being the best matchup and RG being the worst.

If you plan on bringing this, or anything similar, to the GP TEST AGAINST JACK FLASH. I cannot stress this enough, the matchup is VERY skill dependent. Sometimes you should name a combo peice with the therapy, and sometimes it's correct to name Lim-Dul's Vault. Sometimes it's even correct to name Daze, FoW, or even Brainstorm!

I might even go so far as to say that if you have not tested/played with/against a ton of combo/control using discard before, you should probably not even consider this deck. Seemingly minor subtle mistakes, such as taking the wrong ritual/tutor or naming the wrong card with therapy, are THE differences between winning and losing with this deck.

Note that against the kiki combo plague can be brought in naming zombie.

Also note that against the kiki version if you take a combo card (kiki, karmic guide, carrion feeder) with mesmeric fiend it forces them to have a bounce spell for it before going off. If they don't have one of those peices grabbing a Hulk/Flash/LDV is still good (obv.) but it doesn't force them to bounce the fiend, searching up another combo peice will work just fine.

Against the mirage tutors version on the play Chalice can be brought in, as it then hits at least 12 cards in their deck, shutting off almost everything but the actual Flashs themselves.

Against gobbs my sb has been

-3 mesmeric fiend
-4 Duress

+4 Plague
+2 Night of souls betrayal (plagues 5&6)
+1 Darkblast (Makeshift plague)

Dark rit, Dark rit, priest of gix-sofi-equip hands should be gold here (while they probably wouldn't against, say, flash). This makes G1 mulliganing decisions very difficult sometimes, but so be it. I'd probably keep that sort of hand regardless just because of my odds of drawing disruption off of the sword, the fast clock, and the crazy card advantage against the red decks.

Against UW Thresh

-1 SoFI
-3 Priest of Gix
-4 Cabal Therapy

+4 Leyline
+4 Chalice

If you get a leyline down with a marginal hand you should win. Almost always. Chalice makes this even worse, as if it resolves it tends to make things very, very difficult for them.

UR thresh

-4 Mesmeric Fiend
-4 Cabal Therapy

+(see above)

Sword shouldn't be taken out here (duh) and your play should actually differ quite a lot. Dark rit-preist-gator is no longer a winning play, unless you have another accelerant and a discard spell to go with it.

Against different combo decks you have different, but basic sbing strategies. In general SoFI, one of each sliver and juggs, and perhaps a preist or two can be removed, use your judgement and think it through, don't do anything arbitrary.

Against less desirable matchups like Meathooks/Survival/Heavy Control you should be trying to make the game a race. Yes, your disruption is nice, but all disruption+dark confidant hands become much less desirable, and multiple priest-5/x hands become much better.

The FS matchup is very even. You can't block their creatures, your creatures are bigger, and sometimes they can't block them (SoFI). Really whoever gets the best start or whoever manages to make their disruption relevent will win. Oodles of combat math! Edit: If you see their hand w/ a duress/fiend on turn one and their only source of blue mana is a chrome mox... TAKE THE MOTHER F***ING MOX YOU SCRUB. I cannot believe how many times people have seen my hand with a duress, thought long and hard, then taken a duplicate equipment or something stupid like that instead of the all-important blue mana source.

At one point my sb was -2 NoSB, -1 Darkblast and +3 Massacre, but I realized the only deck I was bringing the massacre's in against was Fish w/ mother of runes and gobblins. Gobblins have better hate cards, and against fish I was hitting my own fiends. This was, naturally, quite horrible.

Temporarily I had 3x Tormod's Crypt, as I realized they were quite good in conjunction with leylines/my deck against the kiki builds of Flash. Against thresh you could board in either them, the leylines, or both. This was depending on if you were on the play or the draw, and on how capable your opponents build was of dealing w/ whatever you were using. Against Naturalize you can hold back crypts until they have a full grave, and against Needles leyline is obv. superior.

Still, 7x sb anti-grave slots was probably too much, and my gobblin matchup still needed help, so that's what the deck looks like today.

If you're looking at a field that's 35+% Hulk Flash you can go -1 Mox, -1 Land, -1/2 Juggs +2/4 Unmask.

Umm... yeah. Thoughts/Comments/Questions/Ideas/Flames?

technogeek5000
05-12-2007, 09:19 AM
Technogeek, I've been doing the same thing for casual play. So I would love to hear what your thoughts on it are.




I sometimes sub out 24 cards from my Vaka Pox deck to make a Sui Black deck for casual play. You can only keep your opponents from going past their first land so many games before they refuse to play the deck for the rest of the day.

5 Swamp
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Polluted Delta

4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
2 Gerrard's Verdict
2 Swords to Plowshare

3 Rotting Giant
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Phyrexian Negator

I will likely put in Judge Unworthy over Swords once Future Sight comes out.


Currently, I'm subbing in Jotun Grunts in place of 2 Rotting Giant, and once I get them will run Nantuko Shade over Dark Confidant.

Or instead of Jotun Grunt, I'm looking at 2-3 Tombstalker in place since they've been working so well in Vaka Pox.

I will start with your decklist.

#1. Your deck actually runs a little to much white then i was thinking about. It seems to drift more towards deadguy ale. Cards like gerrards verdict will hamper the raw speed that dark ritual provides and your list already runs 8 discard. My list has been working perfectly for me with 3 duress and 4 hymn to tourach. Butttt..... I dont intend on playing legacy till the B/R announcement in june that sais flash is banned, so you might want to run 4 duress and 4 hymn... no verdict and id probably go with 3 duress after B/R in june. Also i dont think i like 4 vindicate because of the hampering the speed of dark ritual (the insane openings of dark ritual make this deck playable).

I have yet to test jotun grunt in my build so i dont have any advice on numbers or cards to run along side of it.

Dark confidant is another golden card for the deck, i would sooner play Bob in place of 4 hippie because it is your only draw and is bettter late game.

Tomb stalker seems like a great card, but i dont think sui gets cards in the graveyard fast enough to let you cast him before turn 3 when it realy matters. Again i have yet to test him.

Also, i dont run maindeck negators in my build due to how bad a matchup burn is and any deck running burn (UGR thresh, gobbs, UR solidarity, etc...) makes negator unplayable turn 1. I run 3 in the board and side them in against control and slower aggro.

These are my thoughts, hope they help.
Tng5000

technogeek5000
05-14-2007, 01:23 PM
Here's something I'll be playing in either the grinders or the GP itself (I don't want to use the same deck for both)

// Lands
3 [EX] City of Traitors
2 [SOK] Tomb of Urami
3 [MI] Crystal Vein
10 [MM] Swamp (4)

// Creatures
4 [UD] Phyrexian Negator
3 [TSP] Plague Sliver
3 [R] Juggernaut
4 [US] Priest of Gix
4 [TO] Mesmeric Fiend (crazy good against hulk)
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [A] Dark Ritual
4 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice (turns wimps into clocks)
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [7E] Duress

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 [CHK] Night of Souls' Betrayal

The 8x accelerants make it so that you're sure to be able to get down confidant/fiend turn one. If you draw a ritual and a mox a lot of the time the correct play is to simply imprint the ritual. Priest of gix is much better than he looks. Dark rit, priest, priest, gator can be a turn 3 kill, and turn one priest-gator followed by a turn 2 5/x is a turn 3 as well. A lot of the time he's a free creature that beats for a couple then flashbacks therapy. Don't forget that he can turn colorless mana into black mana for multiple discard spells, or sacking the tomb. Tomb of Urami is better here than it is in most decks, as your discard lets you take out their removal, saccing 2-3 lands doesn't cripple you with all the mox/rits, and you can create the 5/5 flyer very, very early. In conjunction with another early 5/x or two and discard it can be simply too much for the control/aggro control deck to handle.

The deck has a solid game against Hulk, Thresh, and other combo. The matchup against gobblins varies from build to build, the mono red version being the best matchup and RG being the worst.

If you plan on bringing this, or anything similar, to the GP TEST AGAINST JACK FLASH. I cannot stress this enough, the matchup is VERY skill dependent. Sometimes you should name a combo peice with the therapy, and sometimes it's correct to name Lim-Dul's Vault. Sometimes it's even correct to name Daze, FoW, or even Brainstorm!

I might even go so far as to say that if you have not tested/played with/against a ton of combo/control using discard before, you should probably not even consider this deck. Seemingly minor subtle mistakes, such as taking the wrong ritual/tutor or naming the wrong card with therapy, are THE differences between winning and losing with this deck.

Note that against the kiki combo plague can be brought in naming zombie.

Also note that against the kiki version if you take a combo card (kiki, karmic guide, carrion feeder) with mesmeric fiend it forces them to have a bounce spell for it before going off. If they don't have one of those peices grabbing a Hulk/Flash/LDV is still good (obv.) but it doesn't force them to bounce the fiend, searching up another combo peice will work just fine.

Against the mirage tutors version on the play Chalice can be brought in, as it then hits at least 12 cards in their deck, shutting off almost everything but the actual Flashs themselves.

Against gobbs my sb has been

-3 mesmeric fiend
-4 Duress

+4 Plague
+2 Night of souls betrayal (plagues 5&6)
+1 Darkblast (Makeshift plague)

Dark rit, Dark rit, priest of gix-sofi-equip hands should be gold here (while they probably wouldn't against, say, flash). This makes G1 mulliganing decisions very difficult sometimes, but so be it. I'd probably keep that sort of hand regardless just because of my odds of drawing disruption off of the sword, the fast clock, and the crazy card advantage against the red decks.

Against UW Thresh

-1 SoFI
-3 Priest of Gix
-4 Cabal Therapy

+4 Leyline
+4 Chalice

If you get a leyline down with a marginal hand you should win. Almost always. Chalice makes this even worse, as if it resolves it tends to make things very, very difficult for them.

UR thresh

-4 Mesmeric Fiend
-4 Cabal Therapy

+(see above)

Sword shouldn't be taken out here (duh) and your play should actually differ quite a lot. Dark rit-preist-gator is no longer a winning play, unless you have another accelerant and a discard spell to go with it.

Against different combo decks you have different, but basic sbing strategies. In general SoFI, one of each sliver and juggs, and perhaps a preist or two can be removed, use your judgement and think it through, don't do anything arbitrary.

Against less desirable matchups like Meathooks/Survival/Heavy Control you should be trying to make the game a race. Yes, your disruption is nice, but all disruption+dark confidant hands become much less desirable, and multiple priest-5/x hands become much better.

The FS matchup is very even. You can't block their creatures, your creatures are bigger, and sometimes they can't block them (SoFI). Really whoever gets the best start or whoever manages to make their disruption relevent will win. Oodles of combat math! Edit: If you see their hand w/ a duress/fiend on turn one and their only source of blue mana is a chrome mox... TAKE THE MOTHER F***ING MOX YOU SCRUB. I cannot believe how many times people have seen my hand with a duress, thought long and hard, then taken a duplicate equipment or something stupid like that instead of the all-important blue mana source.

At one point my sb was -2 NoSB, -1 Darkblast and +3 Massacre, but I realized the only deck I was bringing the massacre's in against was Fish w/ mother of runes and gobblins. Gobblins have better hate cards, and against fish I was hitting my own fiends. This was, naturally, quite horrible.

Temporarily I had 3x Tormod's Crypt, as I realized they were quite good in conjunction with leylines/my deck against the kiki builds of Flash. Against thresh you could board in either them, the leylines, or both. This was depending on if you were on the play or the draw, and on how capable your opponents build was of dealing w/ whatever you were using. Against Naturalize you can hold back crypts until they have a full grave, and against Needles leyline is obv. superior.

Still, 7x sb anti-grave slots was probably too much, and my gobblin matchup still needed help, so that's what the deck looks like today.

If you're looking at a field that's 35+% Hulk Flash you can go -1 Mox, -1 Land, -1/2 Juggs +2/4 Unmask.

Umm... yeah. Thoughts/Comments/Questions/Ideas/Flames?

Sorry caleb i forgot what i was going to say for you when i was finishing up my post towards Clark.

First with your list

Mana base: You are trying with your mana to do to many little tricks and giving up consistancy and control. I do like chrome mox though.

-3 crystal vein: This is the obvius first place to start. Crystal vein is terrible in a deck that has (or atleast should have, your list doesnt) 11-12 double black spells. Even though your list doesnt run hymn, sinkhole, and hippie you still need more permanent mana sources.

-3 City of traitors: The extra mana is cute and works well with priest of gix, juggs, and negator. But sui takes several hits already from its life total with dark confidant and zombies (in your case plauge sliver).

-2 Tomb of urami: You never want to sack your mana base, ever, especially when the product can be plowed, edicted, etc... Sui is a fast tempo deck and this will kill you mid game if you use it or not.

+3 wasteland: mana denial is a crucial stradegy for sui. Taking a land from most decks is a time walk.

+5 swamp: You dont have enough black sources.

Creatures: you have to many expensive creatures and it is costing you in the early game.

-3 juggernaut: a vanilla 5/3 that dies to bolt for 4 is a no no for sui

-3 Plauge sliver: same thing except you might want to put it in your board if your meta has a number of sliver decks.

+4 Nantuko shade: gg any deck that uses creatures to win (No, not including hulk flash)

+2 sinkhole: Mana denial is important

Spells: Your spells seem decent, i dont like sword though.

-3 SoF/I: Again, sui is all about tempo. You dont want to be spending your middle/ late game casting this and getting it onto a creature.

-0/1 duress: Depends on how many people in your area conformed to this deck and if plan on playing it after june 1st

+3/4 diabolic edict: Your list has no creature removal that can deal with early threats.

Ill finish this later, my Computer science class just ended.

Edit: Sideboard: Looks okay but there are a few flaws

-2 night of soul's betrayal: kills fiend, confidant, and priest

+2 Null rod/ darkblast: They both help important matchups. Null rod is good against combo and affinity, darkblast is good against goblins, fish, and most aggro.

blackguard90
05-15-2007, 02:25 PM
Tomb stalker seems like a great card, but i dont think sui gets cards in the graveyard fast enough to let you cast him before turn 3 when it realy matters. Again i have yet to test him.

Sucks balls. I have tested it, its a turn 4-6 card most of the time, and really sucks if you play it in conjunction with giant. Also, sometimes slower than turn 5.



Also, i dont run maindeck negators in my build due to how bad a matchup burn is and any deck running burn (UGR thresh, gobbs, UR solidarity, etc...) makes negator unplayable turn 1. I run 3 in the board and side them in against control and slower aggro.
Tng5000


Dude, how dare you NOT play gator?! Your one of those "wussy" players that choose dead guy over B/R cause your scared. Gator is a FUCKING house against every deck in the format except pure burn decks, and why the hell are you scared if your playing swords? This guy rocks the shit out of goblins, because all they have is gempalm which isn't effective at ALL if they don't have 3+ goblins, which your not going to let them have. Second, fanatic doesn nothing. Finnaly, pyrokinesis from the board can be easily ripped out of their hand with disruption. This guy pounds goblin players to death because their creatures suck at blocking. Ok, your disruption owns solidarity hard, and both sui black and red death have a 70% first game. Red Thresh- This is the only deck that have caused me the slightest problems. In this match-up, play smart and don't do first turn gator. Waste their spells with other creatures and rip the ones they are hiding out of their hand with discard and you should be OK. SB gets much better.

And also, play red death because it kicks ass, go see the new versions (see the monster den tourney report) built against flash and other combo.

AnwarA101
05-15-2007, 02:48 PM
Dude, how dare you NOT play gator?! Your one of those "wussy" players that choose dead guy over B/R cause your scared. Gator is a FUCKING house against every deck in the format except pure burn decks, and why the hell are you scared if your playing swords? This guy rocks the shit out of goblins, because all they have is gempalm which isn't effective at ALL if they don't have 3+ goblins, which your not going to let them have. Second, fanatic doesn nothing. Finnaly, pyrokinesis from the board can be easily ripped out of their hand with disruption. This guy pounds goblin players to death because their creatures suck at blocking. Ok, your disruption owns solidarity hard, and both sui black and red death have a 70% first game. Red Thresh- This is the only deck that have caused me the slightest problems. In this match-up, play smart and don't do first turn gator. Waste their spells with other creatures and rip the ones they are hiding out of their hand with discard and you should be OK. SB gets much better.


This paragraph makes me want to punch someone in the face. Its like all the reasons to run Negator all in one paragraph. Not that I would really punch someone but Negator gets you going or he doesn't.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
05-15-2007, 03:45 PM
I'm scared to go to the Frog now. Anwar's inner demon has been unleashed.

Khurtz
05-15-2007, 04:04 PM
Well, I figure since I've been playing this deck for close to 3 years now I might as well throw my 2 cents in, it being my favorite deck of all time and all. My current list, which still needs a bit of testing, is as follows:

Disruption base
//

4 Duress
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Wasteland
4 Pithing Needle

Creature Removal
//

4 Diabolic Edict

Threats
//

4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Dark Confidant
3 Nantuko Shade

Mana
//

4 Dark Ritual
17 Swamp


SB:

3 Dystopia
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Mutilate/Damnation
4 Engineered Plague
2 Contagion


Card Choices:

Duress-I see this is a must maindecked as it hits home on nearly every matchup except Gobbos and 43 Land. Ripping out a vital point of your opponents combo or taking away that annoying removal or control spell that will ruin your tempo is extremely useful, at least to me : - )

Hymn to Tourach-Once again, useful in almost every matchup except maybe 43 land. I guess the only thing bad to say about hymn is if you're playing Madness or against Misdirection, heh. But yeah, nothing beats first turn Dark Rit + Duress + Hymn, it always elicits a groan from my opponent.

Sinkhole-Rarely dead, usually good for slowing your opponent down while accelerating ahead of them and deadly in conjunction with Wasteland against decks such as Thresh and Landstill. Sinkhole, Duress, and Hymn are 3 cards I've never removed from my decklist nor have I altered the numbers since they are instrumental in gaining you that tempo advantage against just about every deck in existence.

Wasteland-Just too useful to not include. Sure I cried sometimes when I opened a perfect hand with 2 Wastelands instead of swamps, but I didn't lose sleep over it since it was really just a fluke anyways. It helps to have virtually uncounterable land destruction : - )

Pithing Needle-A very very new inclusion in the deck and one that needs testing for sure, but so far I'm liking it since it's quite the bomb in so many matchups. It's extra disruption against fetches in Solidarity and Threshold, it distrupts Vial, Port, Siege, Kiki, Sharpshooter, Fanatic, Prospector and probably some other gobbos I'm forgetting against Goblins, it helps bring the heat on against SOTF and sometimes wins matches by itself, and it's generally useful for stopping stupid things such as Oblivion Stone (MBC) and Isochron Scepter that might otherwise grind your deck to a halt. It helps that it's a 1 drop and also that it's another permanent to sac to Negator at the very worst.

Diabolic Edict-Best removal spell the deck can possibly use. I may have removed it once, but then immediately after testing smacked my head on the table several times to remind myself how bad of an idea it is to not use this card. It gets around annoying things like untargetability, regeneration, indestructability, and color protection and only really has issues with decks that run crappy creatures to soak it up with. I would not leave home without it : - )

Phyrexian Negator-This guy is really tough to decide on. He's been in and out of my list so many times it makes my head spin. I concur with the statement about his strength against most decks in the meta as anything that doesn't splash read for damage spells or is an aggro deck will have difficulty dealing with a turn 1 Negator or even a turn 3 Negator backed by disruption. The question, however, comes down to your meta and how much burn/ugr thresh/anything-else-that-runs-burn there is and also how heavy your aggro is. In the beginning I used this guy religously as I had watched my friend dominate our local tournament for several months straight with an older list, however after time it seemed that burn was becoming more predominant so I made the decision to fill his slot with the ever potent Masticore. That seemed to do the trick for quite awhile, however now I'm starting to think Masticore is either better off Sideboard or not included at all (my current build). It's still quite the toss up and really I'd have to say it's a meta call since Negator isn't necessarily irreplacable as a threat in this deck.

Hypnotic Specter-Tee hee. He's a fun one. Generally useful just because he's got so much jam packed into him for such a low cost and is almost always a good first turn drop. His ability to get in those 2 points of damage per turn has become invaluable and his disruption has single handedly one me games against control. At one time I had taken him out for awhile, believing that his lack of power was hindering the deck, but I soon realized that his disruption feature was too strong to leave out. He's one of those guys that rarely ever gets sided out.

Dark Confidant-When I first saw this guy was being printed I had to run to Walmart to pick up some new undies. IMO, he saved the deck. I'll admit that I still toy with whether I should run 3 or 4 of him and sometimes I cut him alltogether due to his weak power, but in general, he stays in since he pulls you out of the crappiest situations and he's yet another card your opponent MUST remove. I'm not super keen on having more than one in play, hence cutting him to 3, but he dies so much that a 4 of ends up being more than enough in most cases. Overall, definitely a worthwhile inclusion, although questionable when running high CC cards like Masticore and/or Contagion.

Nantuko Shade-This guy..... yeah. I really don't know about him. I mean, he's freaking amazing in a lot of matchups, but I really don't like how he eats up all my mana in order to really be effective. Many times I'd rather be running some Sinks and Hymns into my opponents face than swinging with him, making him kind of dead for a few turns, but othertimes he's invaluable. To me, he really seems best as a late game draw unless you're running good creature removal, since he gets pinged off far too easily early game. I've always had trouble deciding whether to hold back mana to keep him alive against burn, or get his damage in and let him get removed. If anyone has some insight into this I'd appreciate it since I've been messing with that particular theory forever. Overall though, I think he really is worth having, however I've currentl, and this is still going through testing so don't bust a nut yet, cut him down to 3 due to the fact that Dark Confidant competes with him for usage of my mana. I'll let you know how this works out though as most of the time I really do prefer him as a 4 of. I actually cut the 3rd for a Pithing Needle since I wanted to orientate this deck towards anti-combo control and then side into a strong aggro hate.

Swamps and Rits- 17 has always been the magic number for Sui, although I have debated about running 1 Tomb of Urami. I tried it once, but for some reason I didn't care for it, I think partially due to it being uneccessary in some matchups and the +1 damage to me being too much of a detriment for continued inclusion. As far as Rits, I freaking love them. Sure they're not true disruption but they're part of what helps you to pull ahead early game and they're ever so fun to ambush with using Shades on opponents who don't think you'll have the extra pumps.

Dystopia-This card is the reason I don't feel the need to ever splash any other color in this deck. It may be a little slow, but generally so are the enchantments that lock your deck down. It's amazing in so many matchups such as Survival, WW, Angel Stompy and a bunch more I don't feel like thinking up. At the moment I only run 3 since 1 is generally enough to have teh desired effect and the redundancy hardly seems necessary.

Chalice of the Void-This and Dystopia are the 2 cards that have ALWAYS made the cut in the SB since I found them. Chalice is my personal answer to Burn and it's just so much fun to run against Solidarity and Thresh that I can't resist : - ) Really, it's generally your way to seal the deal against combo, but it comes in handy against any deck that runs an obscene amount of 1 or 0 drops.

Mutilate/Damnation-This slot is really a new things for me, but I've recently seen more of a need to run board clear for this deck. The reason I have Mutilate in there is partially for budget reasons, but mainly because I haven't encountered a lot of situations where Damnation is strictly better. Most of the time you're casting either of them with around 3-4 swamps in play, therefore making mutilate at least equal to Damnation. The only thing I can really think of is decks that run early game beef, such as Reanimator, that you Mutilate will fall short on. I run a limited count since I mix in several other creature removal elements that generally tend to provide an efficient enough mix to warrant the lower amount being run.

Engineered Plague-Another new element for me since I've traditionally run Masticore plus things like Contagion which, up until recently, has proven enough to deal with Goblins and other such decks. I've decided to run this higher amount due to Empty the Warrens decks, the increase in number and effectiveness of Gobbos and because it seems to generally have enough targets to warrant using. I'll post any other relevant data when I've tested the card more extensively.

Contagion-This guy is really a debated card for me here, but I find him to be extremely useful. The fact that he comes out for 0 mana really helps his cause since he can take out that early game lackey before he gets a swing in and also can respond to random creature threats that come out before I have a chance to ready a defense, such as man lands. The fact that the counters stick to man lands make me partial to this card against 43 land, although I have many other answers as well. I recently tried testing out the pros and cons of this guy and Slaughter Pact and found out that in about 9/10 situations, Contagion is better. It's main detriments are: Card disadvantage (with Confidant not as big of a deal), Loss of life (the 1 point isn't an issue, but it hurts sooooo bad when you Confidant one of these guys), and the fact that you can't knock out any guys with toughness greater than 2. This aside, Contagion seems invaluble in the sense that it gives you an added element of surprise to take your opponent off guard and it's blazing fast speed is damn near irreplaceable.


Alrighty then, I figure I should mention, if you didn't read all that stuff up above, that this deck is geared towards maindecked combo and control hate and then sides in somewhere between 8-10 aggro hate cards post sideboard. This said, you can see where some of my choices come from. I think I'll first address some of the cards included in the list currently being posted on this thread, mainly Wretched Anurid and Vendetta.

Wretched Anurid: While I can say I've never really tested with this guy, per se, I don't really care for him over confidant since that extra point of damage really doesn't seem to push him over the edge. I played with Flesh Reaver a long long time ago and recently tried integrating him back into the deck, to no avail, and I can say with experience that he really doesn't seem optimal. I believe in all the time I've played this deck, I've had him really influence my wins maybe 2 times and neither of these are worth referencing as they were really statistical outliers. Back to Anurid though, his lack of relevant abilities really kind makes him a little too vanilla in my opinion. Honestly I'd rather run something like Rotting Giant, which I've done before, or Skittering Skirge in his spot.

Vendetta: Definitely an interesting idea, I'll try them out and see how I like them. I've thought of it before, however I've discounted it mainly due to my meta, since Psychatog has been a prominent threat for quite awhile and the fact that it can't hit him makes me hesitate to even try him out. Granted Tog is one of the few black creatures that seems to see constant play, the fact that he's still pretty badass makes this card seem a little less useful, still I like it.


Ok, I'll wrap this up with a few other cards I left out that I've either tested before or feel might be warrant further testing in the future:

Withered Wretch-I really really really like this guy, but it mainly appears to be an issue of A)Meta and B)Optimization. I tried my damndest to fit this guy in, but I can't find enough cards to kick out to make him worth using. Plus, one of the main reasons I liked him was for Thresh, Landstill and Tog and ATM it seems like these matchups are reasonable favorable for me, enough so that I don't need to worry about graveyard removal as an option.

Planar Void/Tormod's Crypt/Leyline of the Void-All these have their advantages and disadvantages, Planar Void being probably the worst of the 3. Crypt is nice late game, but mostly seems uneccessary at this point mainly for the same reasons Wretch is unecessary. Leyline is very very tempting due to the number of decks that manipulate the graveyard in the current meta, however I'm going to try and go without it for the moment.

Masticore-I love this guy to death, and there's a chance he might still make the cut either sideboarded or even over Negator, but I need to do a lot of testing to determine this. One of the main reasons I like this guy is since he provides a solid body to beat down Burn decks. While this may not be a good enough reason due to the erratic appearances of burn in the meta, when it does come it's nice to have him around. This, coupled with the fact that he can pick off annoying ability creatures like Rofellos, Siege-Gang, KiKi, and Meddling make him quite the utility creature. I'll probably be trying to fit him in somewhere in the near future.

Flesh Reaver-As I mentioned before, nice but probably not optimal. I've never really loved having this guy in, I just like seeing a 4/4 for 2 in my opening hand. The problem being, that he's so easily blocked that you need to run a lot of removal alongside him to really make him worth including and at the moment my deck is definitely lacking in that particular department.

Garza's Assassin-Up until recently I've been running a single copy of this gangsta since he seems rather unique and useful. His ability to swing in for 2 until you need to pop him has been rather enticing as of late and the fact that he recurs, despite the exorbitant cost, has kind of sealed the deal. I'm not sure if I'd ever run more than 2, but the 1 of seemed worth messing with for a little while. Definitely something I'd consider.

Cursed Scroll-This guy is trickey as he's amazing in the creature control department and helps to win games against stupid crap like Moat and MBC, but he becomes problematic when you look at how slow it is. Also, were I to not run Dark Confidant I'd almost definitely put it back in, but at the moment the anti-synergy of the 2 cards seems to push it out of the deck in place of faster cards that don't hog mana such as Pithing Needle.

Crucible of Worlds-Yeah, I've never been too crazy about this guy except when I was testing Tomb of Uramia and even then it just seemed vastly underpowered. It doesn't help the tempo of the deck and really is just nice for consistency and to help recur permanents to sac to Negator. Overall, probably not worth exploring except in Pox.

Haunting Echoes-While I've tried this a few times, it doesn't seem to have enough targets to hit. I originally intended this card as an answer for Thresh, Rifter and Tog but it seemed too easily countered and slow to work on Thresh and Tog and Rifter always seemed to have enough cards left to pull of a victory. Maybe worth testing, but prolly not.

Underworld Dreams-This card has tempted me too many times and for not enough good reason. I like it since if you can resolve one early game, it can take a toll on a lot of decks, however the ability of many decks to avoid the whole "draw" aspect of it through cards such as Ringleader, FoF and Confidant have caused me to shy away from this card.

Chains of Mephistopholes- For many of the same reasons as Underworld Dreams, I dislike this card since there does not appear to be enough targets. Too many decks nowadays just tutor for the win, TES, and have no need for actual draw. Probably not worth considering anytime soon.

Skittering Skirge-Another one of those "If I didn't have Confidant I'd run this guy." cards. Although not really as much since he has the whole, you can't play a creature after me or I pop, deal. Still, BB for a 3/2 flyer isn't bad if you're looking for a quick threat, you just need to make sure you limit him to around 2-3 per deck with a preferably limited number of other threats alongside him.

Phyrexian WarBeast-A solid beater who has won me a few games against burn, but generally he died out a long time ago when Land Tax got banned ; - )

Unearth-This guy is kind of a tough choice too, but once again I'd say he gets the cut due to optimization. It's nice to pull back the negator/shade/confidant/hippie that died the turn before or the same turn, but most of the time you already have a threat to replace it. So while it's a nice tempo boost and never truly dead due to it's ability to cycle, it just seems to lack in true utility unlike cards such as Pithing Needle.

Carnophage/Sarcomancy-When I first started playing this I remember reading a primer on Sui Black written by Legend Black, the creator on TMD, who cited his reasons for not running this guy. Mainly it had something to do with the illusion of dealing damage and how cards like Flesh Reaver and Negator were much faster and how speed was key in this deck. I'm going to have to agree with this since Carnophage seems way way way too vanilla for inclusion in this deck, he's just too underpowered really and he makes 1 point COTV too weak to consider inclusion.

Ok, I think I'm done writing as I have other things to do and I'm sure I've put more than enough down for people to digest, should they choose to do so. Please please please please please do not ever recommend a color splash to me. I hate color splashes with a passion and yes, I have tried them. Getting color screwed is just another thing you have to worry about that really doesn't warrant cards like STP or Vindicate (yes I like them but Edict replaces STP well enough and Vindicate makes Rit kinda bad) and is easily remidied by Dystopia/Pithing Needle. KEEP SUI BLACK FREAKING BLACK! I'll end this by saying that there's definitely a reason almost every single one of my friends defaults to playing this deck when I play casually, because it's fun, it's powerful, and it generally stands a chance against any deck out there due it's unparalleled ability to disrupt.

technogeek5000
05-15-2007, 05:05 PM
Dude, how dare you NOT play gator?! Your one of those "wussy" players that choose dead guy over B/R cause your scared. Gator is a FUCKING house against every deck in the format except pure burn decks, and why the hell are you scared if your playing swords? This guy rocks the shit out of goblins, because all they have is gempalm which isn't effective at ALL if they don't have 3+ goblins, which your not going to let them have. Second, fanatic doesn nothing. Finnaly, pyrokinesis from the board can be easily ripped out of their hand with disruption. This guy pounds goblin players to death because their creatures suck at blocking. Ok, your disruption owns solidarity hard, and both sui black and red death have a 70% first game. Red Thresh- This is the only deck that have caused me the slightest problems. In this match-up, play smart and don't do first turn gator. Waste their spells with other creatures and rip the ones they are hiding out of their hand with discard and you should be OK. SB gets much better.


Let me show you something


4th place danish legacy champs
14 Swamp
3 Chainer's Edict
3 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
2 Sudden Spoiling
4 Diabolic Edict
1 Juzam Djinn
3 Plague Sliver
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Nantuko Shade
Sideboard:
3 Massacre
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Engineered Plague


1st place March iserholn
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Carnophage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Dark Ritual
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Duress
2 Engineered Plague
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Sinkhole
2 Withered Wretch
15 Swamp
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
3 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Contagion
1 Engineered Plague
2 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
2 Powder Keg
2 Withered Wretch


7th place june Iserholn
4 Withered Wretch
4 Smother
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress
1 Darkblast
4 Dark Ritual
4 Dark Confidant
4 Black Knight
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Cursed Scroll
19 Swamp
Sideboard:
4 Consume Spirit
1 Cabal Coffers
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Engineered Plague
2 Tormod's Crypt


8th place july Iseholn
4 Wasteland
17 Swamp
3 Smother
4 Sinkhole
4 Nantuko Shade
2 Hypnotic Specter
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Dark Ritual
4 Dark Confidant
4 Black Knight
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Cursed Scroll
Sideboard:
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Engineered Plague
3 Null Rod
2 Perish
3 Withered Wretch


3rd place Magic legacy trial
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Sinkhole
3 Cursed Scroll
3 Black Knight
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Wasteland
13 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
Sideboard:
4 Pithing Needle
2 Mutilate
3 Engineered Plague
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Null Rod


Now what do all these lists have in common. None of them run maindeck negator. Yes thats right nearly every single time this deck has toped 8 at a tournament negators were absent from the maindeck. And do you know why, because its inconsistent. Sure its great in alot of matchups, but against ugr thresh, burn, and red death it sucks ass. Also i didnt like splashing white so that means no stp.



And also, play red death because it kicks ass, go see the new versions (see the monster den tourney report) built against flash and other combo.

Ok this is not the red death topic. Im tired of people telling everyone to switch to red death. This is unproductive to the purpose of the topic. Sui black is an entirely different deck with its own pros and cons.

@Khurtz: Your list seems decent... but i dont like damnation/ mutilate in the board, its a double sided effect so it kills your creatures which seems like it will often help your oppenent more then it helps you.

Khurtz
05-15-2007, 05:27 PM
I can understand your dislike of Mutilate/Damnation. The slot is currently in contest since it's prolly overkill considering the number of E Plague's I'm running. I suppose I'm mostly concerned about getting overrun by shit like Angel Stompy or WW where Plagues will be reasonably ineffective and I'll have to rely on Contagion and Edict to get rid of their stuff. I suppose I could use Vendetta over those, but honestly I'd rather run the extra Contagions as they can occassionaly 2 for 1 things. If you have any suggestions as to what would best compliment the Eplague and Contagion I'd be happy to hear them, or if your suggestion happens to be Vendetta I'd like to know your reasoning behind it. If we take into consideration that Vendetta's ability to kill early Lackey's and such isn't as much a concern due to E plague + Contagion + Edict, it almost seems inferior to something like Terror since the low mana cost really isn't a factor at that point in the game. Also, Vendetta ups the one drops which, when running Duress and Pithing Needle, kind of decreases the effectiveness of COTV, at least in my opinion it does. I would almost say that maybe running Garza's Assassin would be best since if you needed to sideboard out threats like Negator due to burn, you would be able to replace it with at least another source of damage. IDK, maybe it's too expensive to play or the recover cost is too great, but I think it should be considered.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
05-15-2007, 05:46 PM
Sui black is an entirely different deck with its own pros and cons.

Like what? The Red splash seems like a fundamental and entirely positive leap forward for the archetype. What do you think it causes you to lose that makes you want to stay mono colored?

Khurtz
05-15-2007, 05:47 PM
Also, I would really appreciate it, now that I'm here, if people would not post their W/B or R/B lists here as this is in fact, Suicide Black. If you want to post your multi-colored list you might want to consider posting them in the Red Death or Deadguy Ale threads where they belong. Thanx!

CalebD
05-15-2007, 05:54 PM
I appreciate the input, but I don't think you're right on some things.



Mana base: You are trying with your mana to do to many little tricks and giving up consistancy and control. I do like chrome mox though.

-3 crystal vein: This is the obvius first place to start. Crystal vein is terrible in a deck that has (or atleast should have, your list doesnt) 11-12 double black spells. Even though your list doesnt run hymn, sinkhole, and hippie you still need more permanent mana sources.

-3 City of traitors: The extra mana is cute and works well with priest of gix, juggs, and negator. But sui takes several hits already from its life total with dark confidant and zombies (in your case plauge sliver).

-2 Tomb of urami: You never want to sack your mana base, ever, especially when the product can be plowed, edicted, etc... Sui is a fast tempo deck and this will kill you mid game if you use it or not.

Crystal Vein: I think that's the idea, my list doesn't run double black and thus can support a manabase built for turn one disruption, turn two 5/x. The reason Crystal Vein has been so good to me is because you can choose to sack it or no. Meaning turn one fiend/confidant with a mox is nice, then I have the option for sacrificing it for the extra mana later to do something game-winning, say activating tomb at the crucial moment, or allowing you to equip SoFI a full turn earlier.

CoT: I'm not sure what you're getting at. In this deck the land reads: fast mana, no drawbacks.

Tomb of Urami: Sui, and this deck in particular, love the tomb. The intense amount of discard clears the way for a turn 2 5/x, turn 3 sack tomb of urami against a disruptionless opponent. It makes the threat base deeper and wins many games on its own. There's no reason not to run it in most black decks, but especially so in Sui, which can run out of resources quickly.



-3 SoF/I: Again, sui is all about tempo. You dont want to be spending your middle/ late game casting this and getting it onto a creature.

And turns 1-3, when I actually do equip it? The manabase supports quick, easy play+equip, so SoFI is a house. It turns gix/confidant/fiend into actual beatsticks, and speeds up gators kill by a full turn. Just getting a SoFI on a creature, especially gator, has won me games against gobblins and burn.



+3/4 diabolic edict: Your list has no creature removal that can deal with early threats.

My threats are larger than everyone elses. They have to deal with MY threats, that's one reason the only disruption I run (outside of SoFI) is hand disruption. Why deal with thresh's 3/3's and 4/4's when I have 5/5's swinging in? I think it's important not to have any dead slots against the combo matchup these days.



Edit: Sideboard: Looks okay but there are a few flaws

-2 night of soul's betrayal: kills fiend, confidant, and priest


I'm not keeping in Fiend/Priest when I bring in NoSB against gobblins. The idea is that you play it as engineered plague #5/6, making it easier to get duplicate plagues on the board, which will almost automatically win me the game. Furthermore, confidant and all those other little dinks will be dying against gobblins anyway, unless they have a SoFI on them in which case the NoSB will not matter.

blackguard90
05-16-2007, 02:24 PM
@Technogeek5000:

Um yes, you clearly have not tested gators. It isn't in consistent and the only reason that people don't play them in europe is because there are still quite a bit of burn players and UGR thresh. Most would argue that UGW thresh is slightly better, and I haven't seen a red thresh list T8 in quite a long time. No 1 plays burn in america (almost no one). I doubt any sui-black list can T8 at columbus or any major american events without lots of luck. (red death can!)

I suggest you look at red death because it is almost strictly better than sui, except for diabolic edict. Red death is the evolution of sui, and its threats are better (rotting giant), has better and cheaper reach/removal(bolt, chain, seal etc). Vendetta causes life loss, which is relevant at times and irrelevant at times, but its Non black clause really sucks. You can't kill anything that is black like shades, dark confidants etc. While diabolic is very very good, it costs 2 mana and does not provide reach.


I'm not bashing sui, I love the deck, just saying that Gator kicks ass and you should play it.

Khurtz
05-17-2007, 12:24 PM
Ok, firstly in regards to the Negator post I'm going to have to concur with their inclusion at the moment. They really are the card that keeps this deck fast and deadly and if your meta allows you to run them, I say run them. In regards to the Red Death posts here, I'm going to respond with a few points that you may find to irrelevant to your particular deck theory, however you are in fact the one who asked for reasons so I feel I should give you a few. First of all, the only card you appear to be getting, beyond the burn, is REB. Really not optimal for helping the decks versatility. Secondly, you open yourself up to 1 Point Chalice, which completely negates the purpose of the splash and since none of the lists I saw run an adequate answer in the sideboard to this I see it as a potential threat. Also, you turn the deck into a nonbasic frenzy and open yourself up to all kinds of nonbasic problems such as Wasteland, Pithing Needle (Fetches), Blood Moon (gives you red, but may prevent you from achieving BB). Also, your burn spells are kinda useless against Exalted Angel, Silver Knight, Psychatog, Mother of Runes, Jotun Grunt, Werebear, Nimble Mongoose, Fledgling Dragon, Argothian Enchantress, Eternal Dragon, Pumped Ravagers, Myr Enforcer, Atog, Troll Ascetic and many many more. Sure I can't target with edict so my game isn't as good against Goblins and a few other decks, but my sideboard adequately deals with them. In regards to the comment made regarding a better creature base running Wretched Anurid and Rotting Giant, I don't really see how they're that much better than running Flesh Reaver. Reaver is faster against the control and combo decks (which the deck is maindecked against) and post board has enough creature kill to allow it to swing in unmolested. Not to mention you could probably get away with running at least 2 Rotting Giants in Suicide without negative sideaffects as I have done so myself. I see Red Death as a less versatile but more aggressive Suicide Black since it has the ability to be more precise with it's burn spells in the targets you need to remove. I will reiterate though that there's really no reason to post about Red Death on this thread since it's really about the development of Mono-Black Suicide and the only use it could possibly have is in a direct comparison between the two decks. Overall, I think I'll stick with Suicide Black: - D

blackguard90
05-17-2007, 06:54 PM
Ok, firstly in regards to the Negator post I'm going to have to concur with their inclusion at the moment. They really are the card that keeps this deck fast and deadly and if your meta allows you to run them, I say run them. In regards to the Red Death posts here, I'm going to respond with a few points that you may find to irrelevant to your particular deck theory, however you are in fact the one who asked for reasons so I feel I should give you a few. First of all, the only card you appear to be getting, beyond the burn, is REB. Really not optimal for helping the decks versatility. Secondly, you open yourself up to 1 Point Chalice, which completely negates the purpose of the splash and since none of the lists I saw run an adequate answer in the sideboard to this I see it as a potential threat. Also, you turn the deck into a nonbasic frenzy and open yourself up to all kinds of nonbasic problems such as Wasteland, Pithing Needle (Fetches), Blood Moon (gives you red, but may prevent you from achieving BB). Also, your burn spells are kinda useless against Exalted Angel, Silver Knight, Psychatog, Mother of Runes, Jotun Grunt, Werebear, Nimble Mongoose, Fledgling Dragon, Argothian Enchantress, Eternal Dragon, Pumped Ravagers, Myr Enforcer, Atog, Troll Ascetic and many many more. Sure I can't target with edict so my game isn't as good against Goblins and a few other decks, but my sideboard adequately deals with them. In regards to the comment made regarding a better creature base running Wretched Anurid and Rotting Giant, I don't really see how they're that much better than running Flesh Reaver. Reaver is faster against the control and combo decks (which the deck is maindecked against) and post board has enough creature kill to allow it to swing in unmolested. Not to mention you could probably get away with running at least 2 Rotting Giants in Suicide without negative sideaffects as I have done so myself. I see Red Death as a less versatile but more aggressive Suicide Black since it has the ability to be more precise with it's burn spells in the targets you need to remove. I will reiterate though that there's really no reason to post about Red Death on this thread since it's really about the development of Mono-Black Suicide and the only use it could possibly have is in a direct comparison between the two decks. Overall, I think I'll stick with Suicide Black: - D

Is this a budget issue? Red Death have performed a lot better here in the U.S.A. I'll answer all of your points:

1) Beyond lightning bolts, chain lightnings and seal of fires: actually, in a affinity/artifact environment red death plays meltdown in the SB, also fire convenant against aggro. And yes, the red makes the deck THAT MUCH BETTER. As I said in the previous posts, diabolic edict is awsome, but it can't be applied to the head! If your an avid suicide player, you will know that that extra 3-6 damage can win you the game always. In a tight game, there is nothing better than the versatility of lightning bolt.

2) So what? I'll let you play a 1 point chalice. A 1 point chalice screws suicide a lot too. Chalice doesn't always cost red death the game, and it doesn't cause suicide the game, so the point is not very relevant. Sure its harder for RD, but unless they turn 1 chalice, which leaves them to disruption on your turn, or they wait and have to topdeck a chalice.

3) Actually, the deck isn't as vulnerable to wasteland/needle etc. The fetches are mandetory to keep giant and why the hell would they needle your fetch when you have threats like shade AND you only have 4-7 red spells anyways, so unless they needle both lands your not in trouble. If you ever played red death, you will know to hide your badlands. This means you never use a early fetch to find a badlands unless its an emergency. The standard deck have 10 red sources, which is enough. And there are builds with 12. Blood Moon is shit, magus is good and are even considering add to the RD SB. BB isn't hard to reach, new RD decks are not running wastelands...

4) Ok, 9/14 creatures you listed dies hard to dystopia. And a lot of them that cause a lot of problems don't get played until mid game.

5) The new build runs 3-4 confidants and 3-4 rotting giants, aside from the set of shade, gator hyppy. So yes, the creature base is better. I've already argued about why the reaver sucks, go check the red death thread.

Again, the original version of RD is 350+ dollars, while the new red death is around 270-280. When there is a sui black T8 in the next major tournament, i'll consider your claim that RD is inferior.

Tacosnape
05-17-2007, 07:07 PM
If anyone is thinking about running Sui Black in the GP and wants Team Hyena's "Paint it Black" current list for a last second bit of tech, here you go. We won't be able to make it.

15 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual
4 Chrome Mox

4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Wretched Anurid
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Carnophage
2 Wicked Akuba
1 Rotting Giant

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Engineered Plague

SB:
4 Pithing Needle
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dystopia
2 Serum Powder
1 Engineered Plague

The deck has a pretty solid game against Flash (We're anywhere from 40% to 75% depending on the Flash build, an above average game against Belcher (50-65% depending on build and die roll), and since we switched out maindeck Therapy for maindeck Plague, the Goblin matchup has gone up to being pretty close to even. Oh, and, like, Threshold and Iggy Pop? No sweat. Fish is pretty decent also, you just have to keep them from nailing you with Dark Confidant (Plague helps a lot here actually.)

This is the deck I was planning to take. Wicked Akuba is very good as Shades 5-6. Carnophage goes over Sarcomancy to dodge Stifle, same with no fetchlands. The 1 Giant is supportable, but never 2, so we ran with 1. Serum Powder helps you grab Needle/Dystopia/Leyline in matches where they're crucial.

We're confident that in this bizarre hulk meta, we'd have had a pretty good shot at day 2.

blackguard90
05-17-2007, 10:02 PM
If anyone is thinking about running Sui Black in the GP and wants Team Hyena's "Paint it Black" current list for a last second bit of tech, here you go. We won't be able to make it.

15 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual
4 Chrome Mox

4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Wretched Anurid
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Carnophage
2 Wicked Akuba
1 Rotting Giant

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Engineered Plague

SB:
4 Pithing Needle
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dystopia
2 Serum Powder
1 Engineered Plague

The deck has a pretty solid game against Flash (We're anywhere from 40% to 75% depending on the Flash build, an above average game against Belcher (50-65% depending on build and die roll), and since we switched out maindeck Therapy for maindeck Plague, the Goblin matchup has gone up to being pretty close to even. Oh, and, like, Threshold and Iggy Pop? No sweat. Fish is pretty decent also, you just have to keep them from nailing you with Dark Confidant (Plague helps a lot here actually.)

This is the deck I was planning to take. Wicked Akuba is very good as Shades 5-6. Carnophage goes over Sarcomancy to dodge Stifle, same with no fetchlands. The 1 Giant is supportable, but never 2, so we ran with 1. Serum Powder helps you grab Needle/Dystopia/Leyline in matches where they're crucial.

We're confident that in this bizarre hulk meta, we'd have had a pretty good shot at day 2.

I would say that leyline delays flash hulk 1-4 turns usually, sometimes more. The list looks good, but with less goblins, is 3x engineered plague really necessary? Also, I fricking hate akuba, anurid, single giant and to a lesser extent carnophag (no e).

How about Black Knight, Knight of Stromgald, dauthi slayer, dark confidant (yes i know ripping a leyline sucks), Drekavac (discard leyline?), flesh reaver (IMO suck), mesmeric guy, nakaya shade, skittering skirge, stromgald crusader, yixid jailier/withered wretch (Remove your own cards against tarmogofy?). Or jitte?

Goaswerfraiejen
05-17-2007, 10:45 PM
I would say that leyline delays flash hulk 1-4 turns usually, sometimes more. The list looks good, but with less goblins, is 3x engineered plague really necessary? Also, I fricking hate akuba, anurid, single giant and to a lesser extent carnophag (no e).

How about Black Knight, Knight of Stromgald, dauthi slayer, dark confidant (yes i know ripping a leyline sucks), Drekavac (discard leyline?), flesh reaver (IMO suck), mesmeric guy, nakaya shade, skittering skirge, stromgald crusader, yixid jailier/withered wretch (Remove your own cards against tarmogofy?). Or jitte?

Jailer and Tarmogoyf aren't legal for the GP, which is what that last list was suggested for. :smile:

Tacosnape
05-17-2007, 11:14 PM
I would say that leyline delays flash hulk 1-4 turns usually, sometimes more. The list looks good, but with less goblins, is 3x engineered plague really necessary? Also, I fricking hate akuba, anurid, single giant and to a lesser extent carnophag (no e).

How about Black Knight, Knight of Stromgald, dauthi slayer, dark confidant (yes i know ripping a leyline sucks), Drekavac (discard leyline?), flesh reaver (IMO suck), mesmeric guy, nakaya shade, skittering skirge, stromgald crusader, yixid jailier/withered wretch (Remove your own cards against tarmogofy?). Or jitte?

The Engineered Plague thing is a guess that you aren't going to see as big of a Goblins decrease as you think. Plus, after testing, Plague is the difference between a highly favorable UBW Fish matchup and a slightly unfavorable one. Plague on Wizards is what convinced me to maindeck it over Therapy. Before, the build was the reverse. 3 Maindeck Therapies and 1 in board.

Any reason you hate any of the cards you listed? Anurid's the best he's ever been as, like you said, there's going to be a decrease in goblins. Carnophage curves out beautifully in combination with a turn one Hymn or Shade or Anurid on a Ritual, and follows a Duress nicely if you get a Mox. The single Giant is drawbackless unless you anticipate everybody else running Leyline of the Void, in which case, cut it for something else. Akuba is fantastic against both combo and control and cuts down on the occasional problem of having more mana than you know what to do with.

Drekavac, interestingly enough, is in our post-FS Paint it Black build that runs Gathan Raiders. But you won't have Leylines to pitch. Because if you get it in the opening hand, you'll always start with it in play without knowing what your opponent is playing. You can't afford to do otherwise.

Black Knight sucks, Knight of Stromgald sucks, Dauthi Slayer sucks, Flesh Reaver doesn't synergize well with Wretched Anurid and no Burn, Mesmeric Fiend is awful here, Stromgald Crusader sucks, the deck packs too many creatures for Skittering Skirge, Yixlid Jailer is irrelevant with a Leyline out, as is Withered Wretch. And I don't even know what Nakaya Shade is. (Goes and looks it up.) Okay, that's decent, but not as good as Wicked Akuba.

Dark Confidant doesn't synergize well with Anurid and is at his best against control, which Flash should cut down on the number of and your match is tolerable against control anyway due to threat density. Plus, remember, you want to be able to Plague for Wizards. This is huge.

The Serum Powders in the sideboard can be Umezawa's Jittes, definitely. I prefer the Powders, because they're better against combo and I feel they're equally good against Goblins and Fish by letting me mulligan harder for Plagues.

blackguard90
05-18-2007, 01:55 PM
The Engineered Plague thing is a guess that you aren't going to see as big of a Goblins decrease as you think. Plus, after testing, Plague is the difference between a highly favorable UBW Fish matchup and a slightly unfavorable one. Plague on Wizards is what convinced me to maindeck it over Therapy. Before, the build was the reverse. 3 Maindeck Therapies and 1 in board.

Yeah, I would rather play therapies because of the number of creatures you have, but I guess if you can get 2x plagues out naming goblin/angel you can be safe from the flash match-up. But then again, its hard getting 2/3 plagues and they can just echoing truth you.


Any reason you hate any of the cards you listed? Anurid's the best he's ever been as, like you said, there's going to be a decrease in goblins. Carnophage curves out beautifully in combination with a turn one Hymn or Shade or Anurid on a Ritual, and follows a Duress nicely if you get a Mox. The single Giant is drawbackless unless you anticipate everybody else running Leyline of the Void, in which case, cut it for something else. Akuba is fantastic against both combo and control and cuts down on the occasional problem of having more mana than you know what to do with.

Yes, well:

Carnophage: I hate to run less than 4, and because your deck lacks removal, he becomes a wall that pings you for 1 per turn when your opponents have 3/3s and 4/4s etc. (Thats why if you ran therapy in conjunction with all of your black guys, it could be better)

Anurid: Meh, your running tons of creatures also. I guess his life loss isn't game breaking most of the time.

Wicked Akuba: The main deal is your not playing removal, which means he is just a bear. Of course, if you played things like diabolic etc, he would be much better. I like drekavac or Nakaya shade better here. (Nakaya is 1 power less than nantuko, but that part is pretty negligent) Or how about slithering shade?! Slither is very good with drekavac, gathan etc. Yes, and I was talking about a leyline or mox you draw into that becomes useless.

Anyways, I would love to see the "hellbent" version of the deck. Anurid can be replaced with Drekavac, and maybe we'll even see slithering shade in action lol.

Tacosnape
05-18-2007, 02:47 PM
I think we'll go back to Therapy after the GP, assuming Goblins completely bombs out. We just kind of guessed Goblins would still be there in force and the plagues might be necessary.

The hellbent version is much more fun, heh. Gathan Raiders and Drekavac are in force, and we're trying Putrid Cyclops out currently, but not sure about him.

Khurtz
05-18-2007, 11:50 PM
Ok, Blackguard, first of all I never said Red Death was inferior. I merely said that I prefer Suicide Black and that there were certain aspects of Red Death that I don't care for, so stop putting words in my mouth. Secondly, I mainly posted that because I'm sick of seeing posts about Red Death in the Suicide thread since there is NO POINT. They are significantly different decks, as you've already pointed out and there is no reason to post about them here. In regards to what you were saying, I'll concur that Pithing Needle is probably not as significant and that you can play around the whole nonbasic issue. Secondly, you're telling me that you want to rely on a single sideboard card to fix all your problems with the creatures that Bolt and Chain Lightning are supposed to remove. I don't see how you think 4 copies of Dystopia can really stop 4 Werebear and 4 Mongoose, especially when they run how many counterspells? I also find it amusing that you just recommended on the Red Death board that they put Diabolic Edict maindecked to deal with threats that you admitted could not be dealt with using the removal currently in the deck. As far as the whole bit about Chalice, it doesn't hurt Suicide very much at all considering the only cards you deny yourself are Dark Rit and Duress and generally the 1 point Chalice you're resolving more than makes up for your lack of Duress. On the other hand, Red Death loses Chain Lit, Lit Bolt, Seal of Fire, Dark Rit (If they run it still), and Duress. Given this, I'd say they are much more significantly disadvantaged since a 1 point Chalice effectively removes all your removal spells plus your added reach. Honestly I don't really care anymore since it seemed that people were trying to remove the entire disruption base from Red Death that was handed down by Suicide, effectively breaking any ties between the two decks. My recommendation: stick with Red Death if you like it so much and I'll stick to Suicide Black.

eternaldarkness
05-19-2007, 05:23 AM
Have any of you considered using skittering skirge over that lone wretched anurid spot? Skirge won't give you life loss with Empty the Warrens and would even provide a 3 power flying attacker for you.

The downside is of course you can never really play him second turn if you have another threat in hand. But, with the high density of two-drops in the deck, this shouldn't be that much of a problem. You could cast Nantuko Shade, Rotting Giant, Hymn to tourach second turn then follow up with a third turn Skirge. Or first turn ritual, Negator then second turn Skirge. Both instances would give you fast clocks. Thus, there would be no need to cast additional threats after skirge at least until your initial attackers are removed.

Lastly, I think an adoption of maindeck duresses, hymns (which the deck already does) and Leylines of the Void will be the way to go if we even want a chance against hulk flash.

technogeek5000
05-20-2007, 04:43 PM
I believe a retraction is in order for what i said about negator. I have tested it briefly on MWS and its fucking nuts. It has replaced the tempo parasite shade in my build, and i cant honestly see me ever playing sui again without it... so to blackguard, anwar, Khurtz... you were right and i was wrong.

I also tested red death... but i did not like it. 4 diabolic and 3 ghastly demise works perfectly for me. Im not saying that red death is inferior to sui black, im just saying i did not like it.

Here is the list ive been testing and im pretty satisfied with it.

17 swamp
3 wasteland

4 carnophage
4 sarcomancy
4 hippie
3 Negator

4 Hymn to tourach
4 diabolic edict
3 duress
3 sinkhole
3 ghastly demise

4 Dark rit

Sideboard:
4 E plauge
3 null rod
3/4 planar void/leyline
2/3 contaigon
1/3 dystopia

First off if you have not tested zombies, i strongly suggest you do. It wrecks goblins by stopping lackey and trading with piledriver. Against fish it keeps them from attacking with everything but avenger / creatures pro mom but then you snipe them with edict and demise. There just average against thresh because once they have thresh or tarmogyf there useless.

Im not so sure about dystopia... It seems like its only good against thresh, but that may be enough because thresh is a pretty bad matchup.


Is this a budget issue? When there is a sui black T8 in the next major tournament, i'll consider your claim that RD is inferior.

Oh and there is a sui black deck in top 8 of the Grand prix... 900 people in attendance i believe, and he has a good matchup for chance at top 4. Now consider

MattH
05-20-2007, 05:02 PM
I can understand...sort of...why you wouldn't run 4 Duress maindeck (expecting goblins?) but why you would hamstring yourself by not having access to the fourth post-board I cannot explain.

technogeek5000
05-20-2007, 05:10 PM
I can understand...sort of...why you wouldn't run 4 Duress maindeck (expecting goblins?) but why you would hamstring yourself by not having access to the fourth post-board I cannot explain.

I wouldnt know where to put it. I could run 2 dystopia and 1 duress, but im not realy sure. If i did that my sideboard would be this

4 E plauge
3 null rod
3 planar void
2 contaigon
2 dystopia
1 duress

Here is Bill Starks list that T8ed the GP:

Main Deck
16 Swamp
4 Wasteland

4 Carnophage
4 Order of the Ebon Hand
4 Stromgald Crusader
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Sarcomancy
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Unmask
4 Duress
4 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Dark Ritual

SB
3 Cursed Scroll
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Serum Powder
4 Engineered Plague

With 8 leyline, I hope he plays Flash.

MattH
05-20-2007, 05:27 PM
The fourth Wasteland is probably better than the third Sinkhole, and the fourth Duress is probably better than a Null Rod.

technogeek5000
05-20-2007, 07:02 PM
Ok so bill got top 4 out of a 900 person field... can people finally stop putting down sui black, i believe it has proven its viability.

I dont know if i like waste over sink... waste costs a land drop, sink costs using 2 mana. Also i like null rod because its good against combo and affinity. Dystopia has proven less useful.

Galroth
05-20-2007, 07:24 PM
While I absolutely love just about any variation of mono-black. I can't agree with you technogeek. Bill's version is well tuned and an excellent meta-game choice for this GP. If this meta continues to exist then perhaps it will be a viable top tier deck. However, I think when most people put mono-black aggro down (damn their callous souls), they were referring to a meta that wasn't defined by hulk flash, where nearly every deck packs sideboarded leylines and looks like a quirky variation of fish (I exaggerate, but I think you get the point). I for one, will be surprised if something isn't done about flash come June 1st. At that time I heavily doubt the viability of MBA being anything more than a tier 2 deck, even if it is finely tuned and piloted a skilled player.

C.P.
05-20-2007, 07:29 PM
As a follower of the arctype, I'm really exited about Stark's T8. However, I get the feeling that his skills and luck in pairing helped him on the T8. His creature base dies to Clasm and Fire, and he has no ability to get rid of problem cards. I used to run very similar version of the deck, and I found the threats that he is running to be suboptomal since they were too fragile.

However, since red is played less and black white is played more, it might not be a bad idea to play the deck in the current meta.

technogeek5000
05-20-2007, 09:20 PM
As a follower of the arctype, I'm really exited about Stark's T8. However, I get the feeling that his skills and luck in pairing helped him on the T8. His creature base dies to Clasm and Fire, and he has no ability to get rid of problem cards. I used to run very similar version of the deck, and I found the threats that he is running to be suboptomal since they were too fragile.

However, since red is played less and black white is played more, it might not be a bad idea to play the deck in the current meta.

Well his creature base/ control package was designed to deal with the flash meta... when flash is banned, we can all go back to playing confidants and negators.

Tacosnape
05-22-2007, 03:48 PM
As a follower of the arctype, I'm really exited about Stark's T8. However, I get the feeling that his skills and luck in pairing helped him on the T8. His creature base dies to Clasm and Fire, and he has no ability to get rid of problem cards.

I've been testing this build a lot lately, and Unmask does wonders here. Plus, against very few decks do you need to ever put out more than 1-2 threats.

And while, yes, you may die to Pyroclasm, Pyroclasm isn't viable in a format with Flash. Also, don't forget, it's not that hard to open with Swamp, Unmask, Sarco/Carno, and follow it next turn with Swamp, Ritual, Jitte, Equip, Swing. Now you're out of Pyroclasm and red removal range.

This build was well thought out and a fantastic choice. It anticipated a large field of Flash and Fish decks packing White and thereby relying very heavily on Swords to Plowshares as its sole removal piece. It also was well equipped to handle goblins with 4 Plagues, 4 Jittes, Unmask, and 8 1-drops that handle a Lackey barring Pyrokinesis or double Fanatic.

It's also worth noting that the build can function entirely on two Swamps, but is capable of functioning well if it draws a flood of them due to having 12 pumpers. This deck was built to avoid mana screw over a long series of matches, which was the smart thing to do at a tournament this size.

As for getting rid of problem cards, since when has Suicide Black -ever- been able to get rid of problem cards? Outside of like, you know, Dystopia. Suicide Black is a deck that makes as many other decks as possible have answers to what it packs, not the reverse, and this is no exception.

eternaldarkness
05-23-2007, 05:40 AM
Bill Stark is actually making use of a very old Hatred-Suicide Black creature shell. The deck ran 8 one cc zombies (Carnophage and Sarcomancy), 8 two cc shadow creatures (dauthi slayer and dauthi horror) and 4 copies of Phyrexian Negator. The deck also ran duress and unmask.

The shadow creatures are easily replaced by the pump knights in Bill Stark's deck. Pump Knights have powerful evasion similar to shadow in the form of flying and prot from white and are actually better than said shadow creatures as pump knights can easily end the game with enough mana.

Nantuko Shade replaces Phyrexian Negator. That being said, isn't Bill Stark using too many pump knights? Between Nantuko Shade and 8 Pump Knights, that's certainly a lot of creatures to funnel your mana into.

I'm thinking dropping Nantuko Shade for Phyrexian Negator. This will probably make the deck worse but then again, it will make the deck less reliant on getting to critical mana. It will also allow you to deal a lot of damage even when your mana screwed. Plus first turn Unmask-Swamp-Ritual-Negator is gg.:smile:

Zilla
05-23-2007, 06:55 AM
I was thinking about some changes to Stark's build earlier tonight, and there are a couple of things I'd really like to see:

1. The aforementioned Negators. Especially with Flash in the format, a quick finisher seems like a real plus. I'm not sure I'd replace Shades with them though. Shades cost half as much to pump as all the other pump creatures, and that translates directly to a faster clock. I think I'd be inclined to replace either the Crusaders or the Orders with them. The Crusaders have nice evasion, and can provide chump blockers for opposing fliers, which is nice. Order's sirst strike has some very solid synergy with Jitte though, so it's a tough call.

Negators also have fantastic synergy with Sarcomancy, since it provides 2 saccable permanents for one black. You up the curve a bit by adding Negators though. I'd be inclined to drop one of the Jittes for another black producer (either a basic Swamp or a Tomb of Urami). This would increase overall mana production consistency as well as giving you more permanents to sac to Negator and more fuel for your pump creatures. 4 Jittes seems like overkill considering how awful they are in multiples, and how badly a single Pithing Needle can affect your draws.

2. Cabal Therapy. It absolutely belongs in the deck. With 8 1cc chumps to sac, it's a very solid choice. More importantly, it has fantastic synergy with Unmask. Dropping a Swamp first turn, casting Unmask (protected from Daze, no less), and following up with a Therapy once you know what they've got is nothing short of fantastic. It has the added bonus of not being dead against Goblins like Duress is, and is also able to steal Hulks away from Flash combo.

I'm not decided whether they should replace Hymns or Duress. Duress is pretty terrible against Goblins, but it's great against combo. It also has synergy with Therapy. Hymn is straight up card advantage. It's a tough call, but I definitely think Therapy belongs in there somewhere.

eternaldarkness
05-23-2007, 09:25 AM
Here is my take on Zilla's proposed changes:

1. I agree absolutely. Negators belong in the main. The question is whether you use it over pump knights or shades. I prefer using them over the shades as pump knights are an invaluable tool against white-based Fish decks and Threshold. You really need some form of evasion/prot from white in the deck to act as a hard remove threat against aforementioned decks. Against Flash though, Shade+Negator is much better.

Going down to three jittes is...interesting. I don't know, I really like the 4 jittes main. They make the aggro-control matchup that much better. Three might be the optimal number however. Tomb of Urami is also interesting and could be useful if the rest of your team gets destroyed. I'd also love to add in a copy of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in here over a swamp.

2. I disagree with Cabal Therapy. The deck really doesn't want to be sacrificing your creatures. This isn't the Rock where you can afford to sacrifice creatures to gain an advantage. You want to disrupt then end the game quickly with fast beats. The discard package is already pretty tight. Adding more or replacing existing components is subpar, IMO.

Phantom
05-23-2007, 11:04 AM
I'm with Zilla on Therapy. I really like it here. The question on what to replace is a difficult one though. I almost always lean to Hymn over duress, unless the deck can't support BB, but Duress makes Therapy even better, and frees up that 2cc spot for a creature drop, so I don't know...

Iranon
05-23-2007, 01:17 PM
I have to go against the majority here and recommend running Dark Confidant. If he catches a Bolt, I'm happy that didn't hit my 'gator. The same applies to blockers even when he doesn't trade - if you get to attack with him, he has at least replaced himself. One thing worth mentioning is that he makes your acceleration better - with 4 Rituals, 4 Moxes he truly shines.

I want every threat that costs more than 1 to be game-altering, be it through sheer power or abilities. Playable cards for which this applies include Nantuko Shade, Dark Confidant, Hypnotic Specter and Phyrexian Negator. Wicked Akuba and Flesh Reaver have the potential but aren't consistently good.

Re Pump Knights: What's the use of being unplowable when there are so many juicier targets for spot removal anyway? Stromgald Crusader has the benefit of keeping Mystic Enforcers and Exalted Angels at bay, but that's still pushing it. Otherwise, I think the Pump Knight inflation reflects a screwy metagame that will go away soon.
Generally I'd rather scream 'Answer this(,) Bitch!' once per turn until they run out of answers than having removal-proof creatures. Which shouldn't take long given that I'm ripping their hand to shreds.

eternaldarkness
05-23-2007, 01:29 PM
Whether or not pump knights are the product of a screwy metagame and will go away in a month is a topic for another thread. What is relevant to this thread is that pump knights is good in the present metagame. The ability to evade stp and swing past meddling mages, serra avatars, mother of runes, etc is simply too good to pass up.

Like I said, I don't like Cabal Therapy here. It IS hard to cut cards for therapy as Stark's disruption suite is already pretty optimal.

The more I think about it, the more I like Negators here. I really need to fit them in somehow...

Dark Confidant is good, I agree. Just what do you cut? The zombies are valuable one drops, the pump knights and shades are fast clocks. You really don't want to cut disruption if you want to stand toe-to-toe with Flash. The Confidants, while good theoretically, would only dilute the deck as is.

TheDarkshineKnight
05-23-2007, 01:55 PM
I was thinking about some changes to Stark's build earlier tonight, and there are a couple of things I'd really like to see:

1. The aforementioned Negators. Especially with Flash in the format, a quick finisher seems like a real plus. I'm not sure I'd replace Shades with them though. Shades cost half as much to pump as all the other pump creatures, and that translates directly to a faster clock. I think I'd be inclined to replace either the Crusaders or the Orders with them. The Crusaders have nice evasion, and can provide chump blockers for opposing fliers, which is nice. Order's sirst strike has some very solid synergy with Jitte though, so it's a tough call.

Negators also have fantastic synergy with Sarcomancy, since it provides 2 saccable permanents for one black. You up the curve a bit by adding Negators though. I'd be inclined to drop one of the Jittes for another black producer (either a basic Swamp or a Tomb of Urami). This would increase overall mana production consistency as well as giving you more permanents to sac to Negator and more fuel for your pump creatures. 4 Jittes seems like overkill considering how awful they are in multiples, and how badly a single Pithing Needle can affect your draws.

2. Cabal Therapy. It absolutely belongs in the deck. With 8 1cc chumps to sac, it's a very solid choice. More importantly, it has fantastic synergy with Unmask. Dropping a Swamp first turn, casting Unmask (protected from Daze, no less), and following up with a Therapy once you know what they've got is nothing short of fantastic. It has the added bonus of not being dead against Goblins like Duress is, and is also able to steal Hulks away from Flash combo.

I'm not decided whether they should replace Hymns or Duress. Duress is pretty terrible against Goblins, but it's great against combo. It also has synergy with Therapy. Hymn is straight up card advantage. It's a tough call, but I definitely think Therapy belongs in there somewhere.

Didn't we establish a while ago that "Flying" was rediculously powerful in the format? Sure, First Strike is nice, but it's not providing evasion. Oh, and Hymn is definately cut if the decision is between Duress and Hymn, as Duress is too sick against combo to remove. Plus, Hymn is double black.

So, here's what we have now:

16 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Tomb of Urami

4 Carnophage
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Stromgald Crusader
4 Nantuko Shade

4 Sarcomancy
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Unmask
4 Duress
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Dark Ritual

Zilla
05-23-2007, 04:30 PM
Like I said, I don't like Cabal Therapy here. It IS hard to cut cards for therapy as Stark's disruption suite is already pretty optimal.
In this format? No. Pinpoint hand destruction is leaps and bounds stronger than Hymn against Flash, particularly when it costs 1 less and can net you the same kind of card advantage. It also has excellent synergy with a first turn Unmask. That it can be flashed back is just icing on the cake.

In a format where Flash isn't legal, Duress is subpar against Goblins, and Unmask is a questionable inclusion at all, so an argument could be made for Therapy in these slots for a Flashless metagame. We can wait until the first to discuss that.

nitewolf9
05-23-2007, 04:51 PM
I find that the real strength of cabal therapy is being able to turn extra creatures into disruption spells. If you already have a clock on the table and you need to keep disrupting something like flash you have that option with therapy in the yard. It's too powerful to not run.

CalebD
05-24-2007, 02:46 PM
In this format? No. Pinpoint hand destruction is leaps and bounds stronger than Hymn against Flash, particularly when it costs 1 less and can net you the same kind of card advantage.

You wouldn't believe the number of people I had to explain this to when they asked why I wasn't running Hymn, or why I was running Mesmeric Fiend.

Hymn is still gas against the fish decks though. All in all I should've just brought normal Sui, seeing as how 2 of my three losses were to the fish decks. Then when I was in the loss bracket I got paired against the rock, and that was that. Oh well, not the first time I've brought the wrong deck to a tournament. Such is life.



Getting back on topic: I feel the real strength of Cabal Therapy is to cast it after seeing their hand for card advantage off of their 2-ofs (notice 4x peek, 4x cabal therapy in Gadiels Hulk list. Freaking amazing list.)

There's also the ability to correctly guess their hand from information you've picked up while playing, you wouldn't beleive how many games I've won from reading my opponents correctly. "Let's see, he didn't flinch when nantuko shade hit play, so he isn't threatened by it despite its killing him in two turns. If he had spot removal he would've used it on my wretch 6 life points ago, and if he'd had countermagic he would've countered the shade. Cabal therapy naming wrath of god?" -opponent curses and discards double wrath.

Bill Stark
05-24-2007, 11:09 PM
Hey guys and gals-

This is Bill Stark, from the top 8 at ole' GP Columbus. I'm actually the editor for the Magic Webzine Londes.com and my tournament report from the event is published there. I thought I would link to it from here in case anyone is interested in reading how the tournament went from a first hand retelling.

Part 1: http://londes.com/index.php?id=1325
Part 2: http://londes.com/index.php?id=1327

There will be a how-to guide on the deck published next week; I would encourage anyone interested in why I played the deck and picked the cards that were in it to check that out.

Also, if you would like to get a hold of me for some reason, try using my email instead of PMing me here.

Thanks,
Bill Stark
editor, Londes.com
billtriesagain@hotmail.com

tylerwylie
05-24-2007, 11:15 PM
Hey guys and gals-

This is Bill Stark, from the top 8 at ole' GP Columbus. I'm actually the editor for the Magic Webzine Londes.com and my tournament report from the event is published there. I thought I would link to it from here in case anyone is interested in reading how the tournament went from a first hand retelling.

Part 1: http://londes.com/index.php?id=1325
Part 2: http://londes.com/index.php?id=1327

There will be a how-to guide on the deck published next week; I would encourage anyone interested in why I played the deck and picked the cards that were in it to check that out.

Also, if you would like to get a hold of me for some reason, try using my email instead of PMing me here.

Thanks,
Bill Stark
editor, Londes.com
billtriesagain@hotmail.com

I almost played suicide black if I could get a set of Unmasks, but man oh man I was so psyched to see two black based aggro decks in the top 8. Props to you.

eternaldarkness
05-25-2007, 05:15 AM
In this format? No. Pinpoint hand destruction is leaps and bounds stronger than Hymn against Flash, particularly when it costs 1 less and can net you the same kind of card advantage. It also has excellent synergy with a first turn Unmask. That it can be flashed back is just icing on the cake.

Note though that Hymn can just wreck players who mulligan aggressively. Hymn is also fantastic against the rest of the field randomly mana screwing Fish decks or taking out their business cards.

I played a few games with MBA and found that Shades are still invaluable. 8 pro-white knights are overkill if your already using Negators and Shades. Pump knights are however subpar without Flash in the meta so I'll probably cut them for the traditional 3 Rotting Giant + Wretched Anurid creature base (plus the added zombies are synergistic with sarcomancies:smile: )

Thus my only change in Bill Stark's list is to cut four pump knights for Negators and so far I've loved it. Oh and I cut the serum powders in the side for dystopias (threshold is really rampant in my area) and pithing needles.

Citrus-God
05-25-2007, 09:52 AM
Personally, my approach would be Anwar's creature base to the deck. I'd probably do the following changes

-8 Pump knights
-8 Black one-drops
-7 Swamp
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
(-4 Hymn to Tourach)

for

+8 Black Fetches
+3 Rotting Giant
+1 Wretchede Anurid
+4 Phyrexian Negator
+4 Hypnotic Specter <= Better than I thought against Flash
+4 Extirpate/Cabal Therapy
(+4 Cabal Therapy/Extirpate)

blackguard90
05-25-2007, 01:04 PM
it seems like the black deck by Belfatto (sp) was really really subpar. Cards like blind creeper, plague sliver, contagion and WTF is with the underground sea? I agree with the suggestions by Anti-American above, I rather play a 4th giant or make room for confidant though.

But, another thing to point out is that the suicide black by Stark had no removal or reach. And this is where I can see why he plays the jump/first strike knights. The pro white is quite important IMO if you are not running removal like swords, edict, bolt etc. Otherwise, I think he would die to fish.

Sims
05-25-2007, 01:28 PM
I don't think that Plague Sliver was a horrible call at all, though I'm somewhat suspect of the rest of Mike's creature base. However, despite my doubts, it worked for him and got him into the top 8, right?

On Plague Sliver, I believe this was a prime metagame call in the fact that with Flash present, Meathooks (I actually like that name more than countersliver, despite it being silly) was a metagame possibility as it ran disruption and a potentially quick clock. Plague Sliver is obviously a great answer to that. Narrow you say? Well even without your opponent playing slivers, it's still a Juzam.

Goblins have trouble coping, MeatHooks takes a lot of pain from it, it's bigger than Thresh's creatures, it's a large threat that's rough for control decks, and even at 4 mana, with disruption it comes down relatively early enough to put a serious threat on the table against flash. I really don't think it was a bad call at all.

Shriekmaw
05-25-2007, 01:31 PM
it seems like the black deck by Belfatto (sp) was really really subpar. Cards like blind creeper, plague sliver, contagion and WTF is with the underground sea? I agree with the suggestions by Anti-American above, I rather play a 4th giant or make room for confidant though.

But, another thing to point out is that the suicide black by Stark had no removal or reach. And this is where I can see why he plays the jump/first strike knights. The pro white is quite important IMO if you are not running removal like swords, edict, bolt etc. Otherwise, I think he would die to fish.


He did make it into a Top 8 with a 883 person field. I think that should say something about the deck he played and his skill level. It was obviously a good deck for the Columbus metagame. Trashing the deck just because you don't like a few of his cards is not fair to him and the Legacy community in general.

Zilla
05-25-2007, 04:48 PM
Note though that Hymn can just wreck players who mulligan aggressively. Hymn is also fantastic against the rest of the field randomly mana screwing Fish decks or taking out their business cards.
You'll get no argument from me that Hymn is fantastic. It's a great card. It's just worse than Therapy in a metagame where Flash is legal. Having tested and developed Flash a great deal before the GP, I can tell you from personal experience that I feared Therapy far more than Hymn. Therapy can hit me first turn, it can completely destroy my hand on the first turn in conjunction with Unmask, and it can come back and steal any remaining relevant cards by flashing back a creature. It is much, much harder to play through than Hymn for these reasons.

You stated earlier you didn't want to discuss what might or might not happen on the first if Flash gets banned, but since you seem to have changed your mind, I'll make it simple: if Flash isn't legal, the deck doesn't need Unmask. Check Stark's tournament report, and you'll see that he sided out Unmask in more than half his matchups. This is because the card disadvantage simply doesn't outweigh the speed when you're not trying to beat Flash. So if Flash is banned, simply replace Unmask with Therapy.

Kronicler
05-25-2007, 05:32 PM
Why not replace unmask with Bob? Seems to fit into this deck quite well, especially since the mana curve is low. Is that 3rd discard spell better than simply drawing more? BTW, I apologize if this is a stupid question/suggestion, I am not very familiar with sui black at all.

Kronicler

Aggro_zombies
05-25-2007, 05:49 PM
Why not replace unmask with Bob? Seems to fit into this deck quite well, especially since the mana curve is low. Is that 3rd discard spell better than simply drawing more? BTW, I apologize if this is a stupid question/suggestion, I am not very familiar with sui black at all.

Kronicler
Against Flash, you want all the hand destruction you can get, especially because black's only other weapon against that deck is a bouncable enchantment. If anything, I'd drop one or another of the pump knights for Bob, probably Order of the Ebon Hand.

Kronicler
05-25-2007, 05:55 PM
I was actually thinkin about this deck post-flash when I mentioned Bob. But will this deck even be viable post flash? Whatever, I'm still making it because owning people with what appears to be "black weenie" just seems so bad ass.

Kronicler

blackguard90
05-26-2007, 01:44 PM
He did make it into a Top 8 with a 883 person field. I think that should say something about the deck he played and his skill level. It was obviously a good deck for the Columbus metagame. Trashing the deck just because you don't like a few of his cards is not fair to him and the Legacy community in general.

wow, you are one of the most narrow-minded and stupid people I have ever talked to.
Warned for flaming. - Zilla

His deck is very much subpar and you know it. FUCKING 4 dark confidants with contagions and plague slivers? Underground sea for no reason, and most of all BLIND CREEPER? I seriously don't see how he did so well with a deck like that, so I must concede to both facts that:

a) He was lucky
b) He had good playskill

Now another thing: This guy ran 4x turn 1 plays not counting contagion. He must have been very lucky because turn 1 duress usually only stop flash for 1-2 turns. His sideboard is a lot more geared to beat combo and goblins, but he must have lost a lot of game 1s against combo cause honestly, I think his deck totally sucked.

AnwarA101
05-26-2007, 02:16 PM
You'll get no argument from me that Hymn is fantastic. It's a great card. It's just worse than Therapy in a metagame where Flash is legal. Having tested and developed Flash a great deal before the GP, I can tell you from personal experience that I feared Therapy far more than Hymn. Therapy can hit me first turn, it can completely destroy my hand on the first turn in conjunction with Unmask, and it can come back and steal any remaining relevant cards by flashing back a creature. It is much, much harder to play through than Hymn for these reasons.


The fact that a great card like Hymn to Tourach is simply unplayable because of Flash makes a good case for Flash's superiority over all other combo decks. Hymn to Tourach is a great card against most Legacy combo and the fact that its virtually unplayable should tell you something about Flash. By way of comparison, Vintage combo decks are some of the strongest combo decks in existence and virtually no one plays Hymn to Tourach in that format.

Tankalaboomba
05-26-2007, 04:37 PM
I played Suicide Black at the GP and received 35th place. I am new to this forum and this is my first post, so I hope I follow all the rules.
Here is the deck list:

17x Swamp
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland
4x Dark Ritual

4x Dark Confidant
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Black Knight
4x Hypnotic Specter
1x Rotting Giant

4x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
3x Smother
2x Engineered Plague

SB:
2x Engineered Plague
3x Jitte
1x Contagion
3x Leyline of the Void
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Phyrexian Negator

I chose suicide black because I have been playing the deck for many years and I figured the disruption suite would help against flash. This GP was actually my first large tournament, the next largest being a 22 man coldsnap release sealed event.

On card choices:
The deck may seem like it runs too many lands, and it may. But I prefer to be mana flooded instead of mana screwed.
The Urborg was here so wastelands can tap for B, this helped many times in casting all the BB spells and in pumping shades
The land disruption suite was great against all the flash decks and fish decks, often my opponents would just get mana screwed and this is the nail in the coffin.
The black knights were a house against all the white fish decks i ran into and it singlehandedly won me several games.
I chose Smothers over edicts because smother is preferable in the goblins matchup.
The plagues were useful against many decks; naming clerics against mother of runes, wizard against grim lavamancers, zombie against flash, and goblins.
Cabal Therapy didn't do so well for me, possibly due to my limited play time with it and inexperience.
I only had 3 Leylines, which explains that number.

The tournament:
First round I went 2-1 against some control deck that runs Isochron Scepters with raise the alarm and goblin bombardment. Engineered plague on soldiers worked well. (1-0)
Secound round I went 2-1 against a reanimator deck that used buried alives to throw 2x Krosan Cloudscaper and 1x Sutured ghoul into the yard then shallow graved it back. The leylines wrecked it post board. (2-0)
Third round was against a goblin deck. I don't remember this match much but went 2-1. (3-0)
Fourth round was agaisnt Ervin Tormos and a deck that looked like Hannifish. Black Knight worked wonders in dodging swords and blockers and got really scary once it had a Jitte. At one point, he had a cursed scroll and veldaken shackles on the board with 4 island. I just had to wait him out until I drew enough swamps for nantuko shade to go the distance. The match was a nailbiter and several topdecked hypnotic specters helped the win for another 2-1 match. (4-0)
Round 5 was played against a flash deck, I don't rememeber much but went 2-0. (5-0)
In round 6, i got paired against another neophyte playing burn. After stomping him game 1, games 2 and 3 went sour for a 1-2 match. (5-1)
For the 7th round, I got the mirror matchup against Belfatto. He didn't see any of his swords and a lot of good luck on my part (pulled two jittes game 3 off of bob) and bad luck on his part (taking 5 from contagion off dark confidant) sealed it with 2-1. (6-1)
Eighth round was against a goblin deck piloted by Kenta Hikori. I kept a mediocre hand with dark confidant as my only creature. Mogg fanatic kept bob off the table and he stomped me for an 0-2. (6-2)
The last round of day 1 was against a gro deck piloted by Julian Levin. He kept a one land hand game 1 and sinkhole sealed the deal. Game 2 he managed to get out two dryads but my hippies flew over them and black knight with jitte is a force to be reckoned with. (7-2)
Day 2:
My first matchup was against Erich Kunz who was playing an angel stompy variant that splashed blue for meddling mage and had enlightened tutors as a toolbox. Black Knight singlehandedly won me this matchup in 2-1. (8-2)
The second match of the day waas against Noah Long playing flash. All the flash matches blended together but I lost 1-2. (8-3)
Round 12 was against Nick Eisel playing vault flash. His deck was not cooperating with his wishes (he drew 2 walls and a disciple game 1) and I won 2-0. (9-3)
The next matchup was against W/u fish and again the black knight's pro-white and hypnotic specter's wings earned me a 2-1 victory. (10-3)
Round 14 was against a red fish deck played by Tim Galbiati. Now in Mr. Stark's article posted before, he said red fish vs. sui black is no good. I agree with that. He was on the play and went turn 1 mogg fanatic (my only creature was confidant) and turn 2 cloud of faeries and grim lavamancer, he dominated me 0-2. (10-4)
The last round was against Ewokslayer playing flash. He was on the play and mulliganed down to 4! However my near god hand containing 2x dark ritual, hypnotic specter, dark confidant, duress, and hymn only had wasteland for mana. I ended up mulliganing to 5 and he managed to play tight and topdeck to victory. The following two games were rife with my leylines and land destruction and i won 2-1. (11-4)

I would say that suicide black was a great choice in the flash-fish metagame I saw. It has the tools to beat randomness and the disruption to screw anyone over. In hindsight, I should have found room for cursed scroll and unmask but I forgot about those two.

Belfatto seemed to like playing the sea to trick his opponents into thinking he was playing flash; it worked against me game 1.
Hymn to Tourach was great at slowing down flash and generally ruining many decks. Often it would get a land and sinkhole and wasteland did the rest.

technogeek5000
05-26-2007, 07:22 PM
Yay sui black... Boo less then 4 leylines in the sideboard. I also dont see why you would run maindeck plauges in a flash metagame. But congrats nonetheless.

technogeek5000
05-29-2007, 11:21 AM
With some recent testing, I found out that burn is not unwinnable (MWS is crawling with the deck). I went 4-2 in 2 games and all my wins were with negator. I only sided out 1 for a duress and it worked perfectly. Negator is good against burn late game... because they will be low on life and negator ties things up quickly. During the late game, they will be low on spells and you will have more permanents (Sarcomancy is golden here). Negator costed me a average of 3 perms per game but that didnt matter because i had a great amount of lands and drew into a steady stream of creatures.

blackguard90
05-29-2007, 01:16 PM
With some recent testing, I found out that burn is not unwinnable (MWS is crawling with the deck). I went 4-2 in 2 games and all my wins were with negator. I only sided out 1 for a duress and it worked perfectly. Negator is good against burn late game... because they will be low on life and negator ties things up quickly. During the late game, they will be low on spells and you will have more permanents (Sarcomancy is golden here). Negator costed me a average of 3 perms per game but that didnt matter because i had a great amount of lands and drew into a steady stream of creatures.

yep, I always slow roll my gators against burn. I play tons of disruption first, then rotting giants, hippies, shades first. I found that all my creatures were threats to burn and they had to eliminate them.

Also, lets talk about the metagame for legacy post FS. It seems that removal have been completely taken out for more disruption or leylines. Since removal is gone, Negator becomes somewhat "less effective" in early game. Builds that did well at the GP were running 1 cc zombies and Pro-white pump knights. While I hate those guys because of their hunger for mana and 1 toughness, I must say that they deal with big white creatures and swords very well in a fish/sliver environment.

It seems that the degeneracy of flash has really made the format like the standard of mirrodin where everyone was playing ravager affinity or something to beat it. I have been working on a post FS version of B/R suicide that uses drekavac, gathan raiders etc to replace negator (I love this card to death, but he isn't as good as he is in the original B/R) jump knights etc. The deck is only red for the sake of Gathan, so it should have a very similar shell as suicide.

BTW, does anyone have a suggested list for post-FS legacy?

georgjorge
05-29-2007, 06:36 PM
Depending on the number of one-drops you run yourself (I run four Duress and four Ritual, as well as four Sarcomancies which get boarded out in the relevant matchups), I would STRONGLY suggest running Chalice in the board against Thresh, Burn, Combo in general. Played on the second turn for one, it negates more than half of Thresh's spells (and, most importantly, their removal). Not SO strong against Burn, but still a lot of help. With Ritual on the first turn, it's even sillier (but then, what isn't).

I've been playing some versions with light splashes, but my biggest problem seems to be against UGR Thresh/Gro, since their creatures are cheap, bigger, and burn can take care of all my creatures. I would need some big creature besides Negator here, but in the 3cc-range all I can think of is Gathan Raiders, which can be burned anyway as soon as I draw a card. Dystopia and Chalice helps, but I'm not sure it's enough...

As for post-FS lists...I don't see a lot of reason to stay in one color only, because those lists really don't seem to care much about Wasteland anyway, and it gets so much better just by adding a) red for burn or b) green for Goyfs or c) blue for Daze. Are there any reasons against this besides Wasteland and one or two fetchland damage per game ?

blackguard90
05-29-2007, 10:52 PM
Depending on the number of one-drops you run yourself (I run four Duress and four Ritual, as well as four Sarcomancies which get boarded out in the relevant matchups), I would STRONGLY suggest running Chalice in the board against Thresh, Burn, Combo in general. Played on the second turn for one, it negates more than half of Thresh's spells (and, most importantly, their removal). Not SO strong against Burn, but still a lot of help. With Ritual on the first turn, it's even sillier (but then, what isn't).

I've been playing some versions with light splashes, but my biggest problem seems to be against UGR Thresh/Gro, since their creatures are cheap, bigger, and burn can take care of all my creatures. I would need some big creature besides Negator here, but in the 3cc-range all I can think of is Gathan Raiders, which can be burned anyway as soon as I draw a card. Dystopia and Chalice helps, but I'm not sure it's enough...

As for post-FS lists...I don't see a lot of reason to stay in one color only, because those lists really don't seem to care much about Wasteland anyway, and it gets so much better just by adding a) red for burn or b) green for Goyfs or c) blue for Daze. Are there any reasons against this besides Wasteland and one or two fetchland damage per game ?

Well are several problems with B/x Sui:

1) Not a single creature is resiliant like Tarmogoyf. Post-FS B/x decks don't have removal at all. So Negator becomes less effective, Giant get owned by MD leyline or even SB leyline, and everything else have 1 or 2 toughness.

2) B/G has goyf, but that is about it. Rancor and Beserk just don't do the job that bolt and chain do.

3) B/U sui: Ok, you have stifle here. Daze isn't effective in a light splash, force is worthless, and there isn't any good creatures to add.

4) B/W sui: Swords to plowshare is probably the only reason here, vindicate really sucks IMO at 3 mana

5) B/R sui: Still the best splash. I have removed all LD elements from the deck and added confidants and jittes. One of my previous versions ran 4x cabal therapies, which I found to be so good at times, and sucked at other times. My current version runs 4x Lightning Bolt and 3x Chain lightning, with 3 jittes and 18 creatures (3 giant 3 confidants). This might have weakened my flash match-up slightly, but it has made my other match-ups a lot better. I will leave my sideboard to kill flash.

Chalice is O.K., but it always gets countered on turn 2 against thresh, and it might be too slow against flash.

Currently I am trying out a very very suicidal deck that runs gathan, drekavac, chrome mox, leylines and others. I'll post a deck list tommorow.

technogeek5000
06-01-2007, 02:55 PM
Here is the list im thinking of bringing to 4x U Sea in chicopee Mass.

Creatures:
4 Confidant
4 Hippie
4 Sarcomancy
3 Carnophage
3 Negator

Control:
4 unmask
4 Duress
3 Diabolic edict
3 Sinkhole
2 Ghastly demise
2 Cabal therapy

Mana:
4 dark ritual
17 Swamp
3 wasteland

Sideboard
4 leyline
4 E plauge
3 null rod
2 Serum powder
2 contaigon

This list has a good flash matchup without sacrificing to much for the other 4/5 of the format. I think 6 leylines is enough because you only need one leyline and if they bounce it you have bought enough time to control them and/or play a utility creature like confidant and hippie.

Lol i made a error on my list. Apparently there is 61 cards. Im takin out a diabolic edict.

On a more serious note i would like to know which is better to run in the sideboard. Contaigon hits Bill stark style sui and fish (half decent against goblins) but Dystopia hits threshold which is a popular deck and a bad matchup for Sui Black.

Please use the edit button to correct mistakes in a post, rather than double posting. Thank you.

Tacosnape
06-01-2007, 03:45 PM
I've skipped the whole Land destruction approach and gone strictly for discard. My current list is identical to Bill Stark's, only with -4 Wasteland +4 Swamp. Pure basic lands for the win.

Also, Serum Powder in board? Unnecessary now. I replaced them with Cabal Therapy. So now I maindeck Duress/Hymn/Unmask and board Cabal Therapy.

...On an unrelated note, it's freaking impossible to find Unmasks. There aren't even any on Ebay. Anyone know a good place to find them?

tylerwylie
06-01-2007, 04:02 PM
I've skipped the whole Land destruction approach and gone strictly for discard. My current list is identical to Bill Stark's, only with -4 Wasteland +4 Swamp. Pure basic lands for the win.

Also, Serum Powder in board? Unnecessary now. I replaced them with Cabal Therapy. So now I maindeck Duress/Hymn/Unmask and board Cabal Therapy.

...On an unrelated note, it's freaking impossible to find Unmasks. There aren't even any on Ebay. Anyone know a good place to find them?

With Flash getting banned, I'm going to to a list that runs 4 duress 4 hymn, 4 sinkhole 4 wasteland and the rest basics, and probably 2 cabal therapy as well as 4 Black Knight and 4 Hand of Cruelty/or/Stromgald Crusader/or/Knights of Stromgald.

Tacosnape
06-01-2007, 04:15 PM
With Flash getting banned, I'm going to to a list that runs 4 duress 4 hymn, 4 sinkhole 4 wasteland and the rest basics, and probably 2 cabal therapy as well as 4 Black Knight and 4 Hand of Cruelty/or/Stromgald Crusader/or/Knights of Stromgald.

This is workable. I like the pro-white guys.

I don't, however, like Black Knight as opposed to any of those other three. The reason for this is that this is a format with a lot of 3/3's and 4/4's. Black Knight can't swing into these.

Hand of Cruelty at least trades with a Mongoose on the swing.

Ebon Hand is a better choice than Knights of Stromgald if you're running the Crusader, as Ebon Hand is a Cleric and this makes you less vulnerable to Engineered Plague. Ebon Hand/KoS can both swing into a Mongoose and kill it with three mana available. They can take down a Werebear with 4, and take down a Werebear and live with 5.

Stromgald Crusader also should be run if you try Sarcomancy, as Stromgald Crusader's a zombie as well as a knight.

technogeek5000
06-03-2007, 07:04 PM
So i took the drive up to the 4x Sea tourney. I took 2nd place but there was only 10 people who showed for it. We had 3 rounds then cut to top 4.

Sui black, by technogeek5000:
Creatures(17)
4 dark confidant
4 Hippie
3 Phyrexian negator
3 Sarcomancy
3 carnophage

Control(19):
4 Unmask
4 duress
3 Hymn to tourach
3 sink hole
3 Diabolic edict
2 Ghastly Demise

Mana(24)
17 Swamps
4 dark ritual
3 Wasteland

Sideboard(15):
4 Leyline
4 E plauge
3 Null rod
2 Dystopia
2 Contaigon

Round 1, Chris with hulk flash (disciple kill) 2-0:
I start with a turn 1 duress yanking mystical. I wait a turn and play a sinkhole on island, waste targeting u sea, and I unmask taking a Protean Hulk. I lay down a few beaters and ride it out.

I sideboard in 4 leylines.

He chooses to draw(?) and start the game wiht a leyline. I cast a dark rit and play 2x duress and a carnophage. Next turn 2 more zombies come but sarc gets dazed. I lay a confidant and draw into 3x hippie.

1-0 (2-0)

Round 2 Matt with Belcher 2-0:
I dont remeber much of the first game. I know he mulls to five and i rape his hand over the course of the game with duress hymn and unmask. Beaters finish it.

I sideboard in 3 null rods:

He lays a buncha artifacts and i get a turn 2 null rod. Some hippies and discard slow him down long enough for multiple zombies to take it home.

2-0 (4-0)

Round 3, Ben with goblins 2-1:
He doesnt lay any goblins and i cast some zombies plus dark confiant. Mogg and Gelmpalm incinerator clear the way for a lackey and its ova.

I sidebaord in 2 Contaigons and 4 Engineered plauges

I get a turn 1 plauge. This holds him off letting me lay down a confidant and kill his green mana source. I wait a few turns and hymn him taking krosan grip and play negator. he responds by scooping.

I get a turn 3 plauge and confidant helps me get to another. He never sees any enchantment removal he can cast and they go all the way.

3-0(6-1)

Top 4, Matt again with belcher 2-1:
He gets a early 10 goblins and i cant hold them off.

I sideboard in 3 null rods and 2 Plauges.

I get a early null rod and right before he kills me with 10 gobbs i topdeck intoplauge. Carnophage takes me to 1 and him to 2. I wait around 4 turns and get negator to finish it.

I sideboard in another plauge

He combos off incorrectly as he dumps his hand and burning wishes, only to find out he never put ETW back in the sideboard. We shake hands and i find out i will be playing matt one more time.

4-0(8-2)

Finals, Ben with gobbs 0-2:

My deck shits out on me both games. I have to mull to five and goblins overwhelm me.

I sideboard in 4 plauges and 2 contaigons

I have to mull to 5 again and i draw 4 lands in a row. This gives him time to put in around 6 goblins. I never see a Plauge.

4-1(8-4)

So I get a FBB Bayou for my troubles and 4 DCI foil zoetic caverns (in addition to the DCI Foil Yixlid Jailer i got for participating). I had a blast as this is the first time i ever cracked top 8.

Props:
My dad for driving 3 hours throughout the day.
My sidebopard for being teh absolute ballz all day
My opponents for being polite and great to play against.
The store owner for a great event

Slops:
10 people showed (seriously... go to these things)
God for making it friggin downpour and nearly making us crash the car.

Tng5000,

Hummingbird TG
06-03-2007, 07:32 PM
Your build seems awfully like Deadguy minus the white(and thus, Vindicate), Techno...Without Vindicate for support, do you find the 3 Sinkholes doing enough?

technogeek5000
06-03-2007, 07:51 PM
3 sinkholes have been working for me good in conjunction with wasteland. Part of the time it acts as a time walk, netting me a extra land drop... and the rest of the time it keeps people off of colors (For me today, it kept belcher off of red and goblins off of green). Only a small part of the time is sinkhole ever dead.

blackguard90
06-03-2007, 07:58 PM
So i took the drive up to the 4x Sea tourney. I took 2nd place but there was only 10 people who showed for it. We had 3 rounds then cut to top 4.

Sui black, by technogeek5000:
Creatures(17)
4 dark confidant
4 Hippie
3 Phyrexian negator
3 Sarcomancy
3 carnophage

Control(19):
4 Unmask
4 duress
3 Hymn to tourach
3 sink hole
3 Diabolic edict
2 Ghastly Demise

Mana(24)
17 Swamps
4 dark ritual
3 Wasteland

Sideboard(15):
4 Leyline
4 E plauge
3 Null rod
2 Dystopia
2 Contaigon

Round 1, Chris with hulk flash (disciple kill) 2-0:
I start with a turn 1 duress yanking mystical. I wait a turn and play a sinkhole on island, waste targeting u sea, and I unmask taking a Protean Hulk. I lay down a few beaters and ride it out.

I sideboard in 4 leylines.

He chooses to draw(?) and start the game wiht a leyline. I cast a dark rit and play 2x duress and a carnophage. Next turn 2 more zombies come but sarc gets dazed. I lay a confidant and draw into 3x hippie.

1-0 (2-0)

Round 2 Matt with Belcher 2-0:
I dont remeber much of the first game. I know he mulls to five and i rape his hand over the course of the game with duress hymn and unmask. Beaters finish it.

I sideboard in 3 null rods:

He lays a buncha artifacts and i get a turn 2 null rod. Some hippies and discard slow him down long enough for multiple zombies to take it home.

2-0 (4-0)

Round 3, Matt with goblins 2-1:
He doesnt lay any goblins and i cast some zombies plus dark confiant. Mogg and Gelmpalm incinerator clear the way for a lackey and its ova.

I sidebaord in 2 Contaigons and 4 Engineered plauges

I get a turn 1 plauge. This holds him off letting me lay down a confidant and kill his green mana source. I wait a few turns and hymn him taking krosan grip and play negator. he responds by scooping.

I get a turn 3 plauge and confidant helps me get to another. He never sees any enchantment removal he can cast and they go all the way.

3-0(6-1)

Top 4, Ben again with belcher 2-1:
He gets a early 10 goblins and i cant hold them off.

I sideboard in 3 null rods and 2 Plauges.

I get a early null rod and right before he kills me with 10 gobbs i topdeck intoplauge. Carnophage takes me to 1 and him to 2. I wait around 4 turns and get negator to finish it.

I sideboard in another plauge

He combos off incorrectly as he dumps his hand and burning wishes, only to find out he never put them back in the sideboard. We shake hands and i find out i will be playing matt one more time.

4-0(8-2)

Finals, Matt with gobbs 0-2:

My deck shits out on me both games. I have to mull to five and goblins overwhelm me.

I sideboard in 4 plauges and 2 contaigons

I have to mull to 5 again and i draw 4 lands in a row. This gives him time to put in around 6 goblins. I never see a Plauge.

4-1(8-4)

So I get a FBB Bayou for my troubles and 4 DCI foil zoetic caverns (in addition to the DCI Foil Yixlid Jailer i got for participating). I had a blast as this is the first time i ever cracked top 8.

Props:
My dad for driving 3 hours throughout the day.
My sidebopard for being teh absolute ballz all day
My opponents for being polite and great to play against.
The store owner for a great event

Slops:
10 people showed (seriously... go to these things)
God for making it friggin downpour and nearly making us crash the car.

Tng5000,

well, since flash is no longer a deck you can take out unmasks for something else that improves your other match-ups. I would take them out for either more creatures (gator, sarc, phage, a sinkhole) or put in jittes, removal and a hymn. I would change contagions to dystopias in board. Also, if you are playing 6 zombies, why not play 4 sarc and 2 phages? Sarc can be sacked, and it doesn;t damage you initially.

Finnally, gratz on the good finish.

technogeek5000
06-03-2007, 08:10 PM
Yah, unmasks are departing my list. Im going to make the following changes to my list.

Maindeck:
-4 Unmask
-1 Duress

+1 Carnophage
+1 Sarcomancy
+1 Hymn to tourach
+1 Diabolic edict
+1 Ghastly demise

Sideboard:
-4 Leyline

+3 Planar void
+1 Duress

This is basically allows me to beat goblins game 1 because i have more removal and less dead cards maindeck (duress kinda sucks ass vs. gobbs).

The 2 contaigons didnt do shit for me all day, but thats probably because i played against combo most of the day. Im not sure if Dystopia > Contaigon because Contaigon is good against fish, gobbs, Amazing against bill stark sui. But i guess fish is already a pretty good matchup and goblins gets better with 2 additional goblins.

georgjorge
06-04-2007, 03:38 AM
Well are several problems with B/x Sui:

Not a single creature is resiliant like Tarmogoyf. Post-FS B/x decks don't have removal at all. So Negator becomes less effective, Giant get owned by MD leyline or even SB leyline, and everything else have 1 or 2 toughness.

I don't understand that reasoning. Why should B/x decks not have any removal ? You know, it's not like somebody's FORCING you to cut your Edicts and Demises for cards in other colors...

As for your other points...yes, B/g has only the Goyf going for it, and B/u the Daze (I don't know why you say that Daze is less effective than Stifle in a light splash), but seeing as there's virtually no disadvantage to splashing a second color, the deck will STILL get better by adding four copies of those cards.



Chalice is O.K., but it always gets countered on turn 2 against thresh [...]

Which can also be said for...Hymn, Giant, Goyf, Shade, Sinkhole, and so on. EVERY card can be countered turn two against Thresh, but the key to do well in this matchup is to use your discard to get their counters first, and to overload their defense with cards they NEED to counter.

technogeek5000
06-04-2007, 03:16 PM
Does anyone have a Green death list i could draw ideas from. Ive been thinking about testing it because i have enouh bayous now:wink:

I agree with george. Chalice should stick against thresh because your probably duressing/hymning/etc... them first. And you shouldnt jugde a card because it can get countered because nearly all cards in the game have this potential.

georgjorge
06-04-2007, 04:37 PM
A Green Death list...well, I suppose you take out the creatures you need the least (for me, that would be Hippies), and put in four Tarmogoyf...and MAYBE, if it fits for you, one or two Rancor. The only other cards I can think now off the top of my head are sideboard cards: Spreading Algae and Compost for the mirror.

My list, which I have constantly refined and find to do pretty well now, is...

8 Fetchlands
4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
2 Swamp
2 Ritual
2 Chrome Mox
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

4 Negator
4 Goyf
4 Sarcomancy
3 Giant
2 Shade
1 Stromgald Crusader
1 Carnophage

4 Duress
4 Hymn
4 Sinkhole
3 Demise
2 Blackmail
1 Rancid Earth


Sideboard:

4 Chalice
3 Stromgald Crusader
3 Dystopia
3 Pithing Needle
2 Ostracize (super secret anti-goblins and anti-vial tech)

technogeek5000
06-04-2007, 06:35 PM
Umm yah please play 4 dark ritual. Its the undeniable best card in the whole deck and probably one of the best black cards ever printed. I dont see black mail doin much for you so id probably take out 2 of those for 2 more dark ritual.

And why would you not play Engineered plauge, and why ostrasize. So you take 1 of there goblins for 1 of your cards, big deal. E plauge nearly clears there entire board and the creatures it doesnt kill it makes them weak enough to easily deal with. I have never lost a game against goblins after i have gotten plauge out.

ForceofWill
06-04-2007, 06:43 PM
I was the goblin player and for the record my name is Ben not Matt. and Matt played belcher

technogeek5000
06-04-2007, 06:57 PM
Sorry got you 2 confused. My only notes were life counts. Ill fix that now.

blackguard90
06-04-2007, 08:05 PM
A Green Death list...well, I suppose you take out the creatures you need the least (for me, that would be Hippies), and put in four Tarmogoyf...and MAYBE, if it fits for you, one or two Rancor. The only other cards I can think now off the top of my head are sideboard cards: Spreading Algae and Compost for the mirror.

My list, which I have constantly refined and find to do pretty well now, is...

8 Fetchlands
4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
2 Swamp
2 Ritual
2 Chrome Mox
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

4 Negator
4 Goyf
4 Sarcomancy
3 Giant
2 Shade
1 Stromgald Crusader
1 Carnophage

4 Duress
4 Hymn
4 Sinkhole
3 Demise
2 Blackmail
1 Rancid Earth


Sideboard:

4 Chalice
3 Stromgald Crusader
3 Dystopia
3 Pithing Needle
2 Ostracize (super secret anti-goblins and anti-vial tech)


any reasons for the singletons? Carno and Strom should be shades, you don't need so many zombies just to satisfy sarco, and giant is a zombie... (or shades+strom should be carnos). Ok, rotting giants and tarmo is very bad synergy, and also bad with demise.

Singleton rancid is pointless. It kills some of your guys and 3 mana for LD is subpar to sinkhole. I would play jittes or edicts over blackmail, because you don't really need more than 8 pieces of disruption for most of the time, plus your chalice at one shuts down blackmail and your zombies/demise.

Thirdly, 2x chrome mox is hardly an arguement over 4x dark ritual. You either play 4x ritual, or both mox and ritual.

Ostrasize sucks, tested it way way back. Encroach sucks too :tongue: .

So:

-1 Rancid
-3 Giant
-2 Blackmail
-1 Stromgald
-1 Urborg (no reason just for wasteland, and it also gets wasted and sometimes helps others (mirror, r death etc))
-2 Mox

+1 Demise
+2 Ritual
+2 swamp
+3 carno
+2 shade/edict/jitte/rancor

georgjorge
06-05-2007, 04:20 AM
As for Mox vs. Ritual...I've stated my reasons over in the Red Death thread.

Plague vs. Ostracize: I find that the main source of my losses versus Goblins comes from one card - Ringleader. Even with Plague out, a good Ringleader (like...Matron + Piledriver) can cause a loss very fast, especially if he fetches you another one, since you will be facing some big Piledrivers backed up by Incinerators no matter the -1/-1. Since land destruction doesn't always work that well there thanks to Vial, I think it's best to get rid of the Ringleader before it hits play. Also, there are almost no matchups besides Goblins where Plague comes in handy, whereas Ostracize does (basically, most decks playing Vial).

The singleton Crusader...well, the reason is I want to play four in many matchups, but don't have room in the sideboard anymore. Bad reasoning, probably, and it being a shade is probably better.

The singleton Rancid Earth...Obviously worse than Sinkhole, but land destruction gets better cumulatively, since destroying one land does nothing most of the time, while destroying three can give you the game. So, I decided I needed a bit more of that.

Blackmail...it's good. You can even cast it on their first turn, and almost always get some lands offered to you, following up on that with Wasteland or Sinkhole.

Giant - Goyf - Demise: Bad synergy, but it doesn't matter. You don't remove much more than two or three cards with Giants in a game, and I have NEVER had the Goyf getting smaller because of them, as there are always multiple lands/sorceries in the graveyards.

technogeek5000
06-05-2007, 01:08 PM
As for Mox vs. Ritual...I've stated my reasons over in the Red Death thread.

Plague vs. Ostracize: I find that the main source of my losses versus Goblins comes from one card - Ringleader. Even with Plague out, a good Ringleader (like...Matron + Piledriver) can cause a loss very fast, especially if he fetches you another one, since you will be facing some big Piledrivers backed up by Incinerators no matter the -1/-1. Since land destruction doesn't always work that well there thanks to Vial, I think it's best to get rid of the Ringleader before it hits play. Also, there are almost no matchups besides Goblins where Plague comes in handy, whereas Ostracize does (basically, most decks playing Vial).

The singleton Crusader...well, the reason is I want to play four in many matchups, but don't have room in the sideboard anymore. Bad reasoning, probably, and it being a shade is probably better.

The singleton Rancid Earth...Obviously worse than Sinkhole, but land destruction gets better cumulatively, since destroying one land does nothing most of the time, while destroying three can give you the game. So, I decided I needed a bit more of that.

Blackmail...it's good. You can even cast it on their first turn, and almost always get some lands offered to you, following up on that with Wasteland or Sinkhole.

Giant - Goyf - Demise: Bad synergy, but it doesn't matter. You don't remove much more than two or three cards with Giants in a game, and I have NEVER had the Goyf getting smaller because of them, as there are always multiple lands/sorceries in the graveyards.

#1 Ostracize doesnt helps versus goblins, so you take out a ringleader, they play 4 matrons which make it easier to find. E plauge is good because it makes all there creatures weaker. Piledriver will have 1 toughness... easily handled with a zombie.

#2 If they reveal a land with blackmail then they obviously have enough lands to play with. Playing 2 more creature removal would benefit you more.

Bill Stark
06-05-2007, 02:35 PM
All-

This is Bill Stark again. I wanted to drop by to point out I wrote a primer on building the aggro black deck I played at Grand Prix Columbus. You can find it here (http://londes.com/?id=1349) over on Londes. Some of the choices I made have received a lot of attention here, so I thought it might be useful for people to read what I was thinking.

I'm not sure how good the archetype is now that the format is so radically different, but I think there is room for it to exist, particularly since Replenish returns...

-Bill

Tacosnape
06-06-2007, 01:19 AM
All-

This is Bill Stark again. I wanted to drop by to point out I wrote a primer on building the aggro black deck I played at Grand Prix Columbus. You can find it here (http://londes.com/?id=1349) over on Londes. Some of the choices I made have received a lot of attention here, so I thought it might be useful for people to read what I was thinking.

I'm not sure how good the archetype is now that the format is so radically different, but I think there is room for it to exist, particularly since Replenish returns...

-Bill

I am shamelessly netdecking your build, for what it's worth, and plan to see how it goes and tweak it from there. My only difference is that I skipped Wasteland in favor of additional swamps to maximize the abilities of the creature base, and dumped Serum Powder for Cabal Therapy. I'd be curious to know what you thought about those changes, and what your opinion on Dystopia in place of Cursed Scroll might be.

I think it has a lot of game in the modern metagame. 12 discard main with access to 16 in board is a strong disruption package and makes it pretty good against most combo decks. 4 Plagues and 4 Jittes backed up by 8 :b:-for-2/2 guys gives it a playable game against Goblins. There's also enough disruption and speed to give it a fighting chance against control decks. (I'm curious to know if the questionable control match was a large reason you included Cursed Scroll for reach, or if it was mostly for Fish-style decks.)

eternaldarkness
06-06-2007, 11:07 AM
Quoting Bill Stark's Black Aggro Primer:
"An astute forumite and Legacy player, presumably, at The Source noted that I was actually using a creature shell from an old Hatred archetype that Mike Flores had once written about. Said poster, and forgive me for not having written down the name, was correct. This list did indeed start with Mike’s old Hatred creature base, slowly rotating out Hatred (too slow, believe it or not) and the Shadow creature base of Dauthi Slayer and Dauthi Horror for the slightly less fragile pump knights and additional disruption in the form of more handkill."


Bill Stark is actually making use of a very old Hatred-Suicide Black creature shell. The deck ran 8 one cc zombies (Carnophage and Sarcomancy), 8 two cc shadow creatures (dauthi slayer and dauthi horror) and 4 copies of Phyrexian Negator. The deck also ran duress and unmask.

The shadow creatures are easily replaced by the pump knights in Bill Stark's deck. Pump Knights have powerful evasion similar to shadow in the form of flying and prot from white and are actually better than said shadow creatures as pump knights can easily end the game with enough mana.

Nantuko Shade replaces Phyrexian Negator.

*Gasp* Dare I assume that Monsieur Stark is speaking of yours truly?

I am actually also netdecking Bill Stark's list. I've dropped 4 Pump knights (the non-zombie ones) for 4 Negators as the deck already has a lot of inflatable (i'm using a really old term here) critters already. I've kept the wastelands, unlike Taco, and have dropped the unmasks for sinkholes. Unmask was really only used as a means to stop turn one Flash/Hulk-->win and hence is unneeded in the current format. Sinkhole/Wasteland are again invaluable disruption as the fundamental turn is no longer on turn 1 and 2cc spells that win the game are no longer a fact of life (sweeeet).

C.P.
06-06-2007, 12:09 PM
One Word: Goblins.

With 20 crt. Plan, your goblins matchup is absolutely horrible. I tried almost identical list until an year ago, and it the list itself did not stand up to the modern meta game. I also have to note that stark's original list cannot deal with enchantments and artifacts(assuming they resolve), which will be more prevalent than ever since replenish's back.

I'm a big fan of the deck, but traditional 20 creature Sui has following problems:

1. Even with Jitte, Goblins matchup is bad. Fanatic and some chump goblin stops your tempo, and they outdraw you in the lategame. Unless you have active Jitte on turn 2(with happens time to time), the matchup is very hard.

2. It cannot deal with resolved artifacts and enchantments. artifacts can be dealt with Keg/Null Rod or its like, but enchantment is impossible to deal with(unless you splash for white or something).

3. Pure board control, truffle shuffle or W control variant, just eats it. Fortuately, the decks are not very popular.

4. Threshold, especially one's with red. Their bigger creature and efficient removal is vary bad for you. You also lose to anything that packs more than 10 burns, namely R/x aggro and Burn(the worst matchup evAR).

5. the advent of TES and CRET belcher made combo matchups bit harder. when the Gamekeeper and Solidarity was all you have to worry about, combo was a free win.


These problems caused me to give up on the archetype. I still have it built(in fact, I own three sets of every suicide black cards just so I can build three of them), but I don't expect it to be better than tier two.
I'm currently working on B/w Sui that looks like Red Death with white, which has been very good to me. I'll probably be back to mono black suicide after I'm done with it, though.

EDIT: Now the flash's gone, Chalice will be back as primary combo hate, and that will pose another problem. Having to play against Chalice for 1 is not very fun.

technogeek5000
06-06-2007, 12:19 PM
I'm a big fan of the deck, but traditional 20 creature Sui has following problems:

1. Even with Jitte, Goblins matchup is bad. Fanatic and some chump goblin stops your tempo, and they outdraw you in the lategame. Unless you have active Jitte on turn 2(with happens time to time), the matchup is very hard.

2. It cannot deal with resolved artifacts and enchantments. artifacts can be dealt with Keg/Null Rod or its like, but enchantment is impossible to deal with(unless you splash for white or something).

3. Pure board control, truffle shuffle or W control variant, just eats it. Fortuately, the decks are not very popular.

4. Threshold, especially one's with red. Their bigger creature and efficient removal is vary bad for you. You also lose to anything that packs more than 10 burns, namely R/x aggro and Burn(the worst matchup evAR).

5. the advent of TES and CRET belcher made combo matchups bit harder. when the Gamekeeper and Solidarity was all you have to worry about, combo was a free win.


1. thats why most sui decks pack 4x Plauge. I believe i have to reiterate, even if they run enchantment hate you have the practically game won if this hits the board.

2. What enchantments are you talking about. the only realy devastating enchantments i could think of are moat, humility, and solitary confinement... and these all die to dystopia.

3. yes board control is bad, but this is were discard realy shines, you will often rip all the WoG effects out of there hands before they can use them.

4. Dystopia/ yes UGR thresh is bad.

5. sui packs ALOT of combo hate maindeck and sideboard.

C.P.
06-06-2007, 12:36 PM
1. thats why most sui decks pack 4x Plauge. I believe i have to reiterate, even if they run enchantment hate you have the practically game won if this hits the board.

2. What enchantments are you talking about. the only realy devastating enchantments i could think of are moat, humility, and solitary confinement... and these all die to dystopia.

3. yes board control is bad, but this is were discard realy shines, you will often rip all the WoG effects out of there hands before they can use them.

4. Dystopia/ yes UGR thresh is bad.

5. sui packs ALOT of combo hate maindeck and sideboard.

1. Plague is usually not fast enough if you run 20 land and they run port. Ritual + plague is good, but how often does that happen?

2. Moat, Spiritual Focus, Confinement, Ghostly prison, Elephant Grass. Of course they pack their own hate for distopia(seals and auras).

3. Landstill is not a problem, but things like truffle shuffle is bad. when their entire deck sweeps the board, their is not much that you can do.

4. Red is bad for Sui.

5. When they go tendrils, discard is very good, but ETW is bit worse. It's till favorable, but it is not a free win.

Tacosnape
06-06-2007, 02:18 PM
1. Even with Jitte, Goblins matchup is bad. Fanatic and some chump goblin stops your tempo, and they outdraw you in the lategame. Unless you have active Jitte on turn 2(with happens time to time), the matchup is very hard.

2. It cannot deal with resolved artifacts and enchantments. artifacts can be dealt with Keg/Null Rod or its like, but enchantment is impossible to deal with(unless you splash for white or something).

3. Pure board control, truffle shuffle or W control variant, just eats it. Fortuately, the decks are not very popular.

4. Threshold, especially one's with red. Their bigger creature and efficient removal is vary bad for you. You also lose to anything that packs more than 10 burns, namely R/x aggro and Burn(the worst matchup evAR).

5. the advent of TES and CRET belcher made combo matchups bit harder. when the Gamekeeper and Solidarity was all you have to worry about, combo was a free win.


1. You're wrong. I'm 5-1 matches (10-5 games) against Goblins so far. Carnophage and Sarcomancy both deal with initial onslaughts from Lackey and company extremely well, and it's easy to win a game simply from turn one Carnophage, turn two Ritual/Jitte/Equip/Swing. Unmask is also a godsend in this matchup. Unmask lets you rip away Lackey, Vial, Hooligan, and Plague removal before they even get a move.

2. Again, you're wrong. Dystopia takes care of most problematic enchantments. Enchantments that aren't white or green and cause repeated problems are rare. Plus, Duress and Unmask save the day.

3. Granted. Every deck loses to something. Every now and then you can sneak enough speed and disruption to pull through, though. I suspect Eternaldarkness's build would have a slight advantage over mine here.

4. Red Threshold is tricky, but not impossible. A shade coming out with 4-5 mana lives through burn spells. Not to mention that my build packs both Dystopia and Leyline of the Void in sideboard. Oh, did I mention Duress? Good spell, Duress. White Threshold, however, is a fucking cakewalk.

5. Duress, Cabal Therapy, Unmask, Hymn to Tourach, Leyline of the Void, Engineered Plague. I might capitulate to turn one ETW's for 12 without the elusive Rit-Plague, but fast combo capitulates to me any time I win the die roll.

C.P.
06-06-2007, 10:51 PM
1. You're wrong. I'm 5-1 matches (10-5 games) against Goblins so far. Carnophage and Sarcomancy both deal with initial onslaughts from Lackey and company extremely well, and it's easy to win a game simply from turn one Carnophage, turn two Ritual/Jitte/Equip/Swing. Unmask is also a godsend in this matchup. Unmask lets you rip away Lackey, Vial, Hooligan, and Plague removal before they even get a move.

2. Again, you're wrong. Dystopia takes care of most problematic enchantments. Enchantments that aren't white or green and cause repeated problems are rare. Plus, Duress and Unmask save the day.

3. Granted. Every deck loses to something. Every now and then you can sneak enough speed and disruption to pull through, though. I suspect Eternaldarkness's build would have a slight advantage over mine here.

4. Red Threshold is tricky, but not impossible. A shade coming out with 4-5 mana lives through burn spells. Not to mention that my build packs both Dystopia and Leyline of the Void in sideboard. Oh, did I mention Duress? Good spell, Duress. White Threshold, however, is a fucking cakewalk.

5. Duress, Cabal Therapy, Unmask, Hymn to Tourach, Leyline of the Void, Engineered Plague. I might capitulate to turn one ETW's for 12 without the elusive Rit-Plague, but fast combo capitulates to me any time I win the die roll.

1. I'm playing against R/W and mono red that maindecks Pyrokinesis. I found the matchup to be pretty horrible, unless I get the jitte going. Though I admit my old build did not run and unmask maindeck.

2. I'm specifically talking about Enchantress, and they do not care about dystopia. I admit discard is good against them, but sometime's that's just no enough, especially with replenish back. Loam confinement also is in this category.

3, 4. agreed. Pumpknights(which I abandoned about 3 years ago) makes white thersh cakewalk. They should be pretty godly in WW matchup.

5. Agreed. as long as you win that die roll...

Tacosnape
06-07-2007, 12:10 AM
1. I'm playing against R/W and mono red that maindecks Pyrokinesis. I found the matchup to be pretty horrible, unless I get the jitte going. Though I admit my old build did not run and unmask maindeck.

2. I'm specifically talking about Enchantress, and they do not care about dystopia. I admit discard is good against them, but sometime's that's just no enough, especially with replenish back. Loam confinement also is in this category.


1. That would make things harder, yes. Still, Duress and Unmask should help against Pyrokinesis.

2. I'll have to hit lonelybaritone over the head with a club, drag him back to my cave, and make him test Enchantress against my build. I -think- I can beat it if I can figure out exactly what I'm doing. Dystopia isn't the only thing that hurts Enchantress. Engineered Plague on Enchantresses should help also, Leyline would stop Replenish if it's worth boarding in, and the discard and fast clock might keep Enchantress from being able to dig up Seals. Words of War could be an incredible bitch, though.

Bill Stark
06-07-2007, 03:23 AM
-Eternaldarkness, you were the person I was talking about (I'm sorry I didn't have your name written down, but nice job noticing that creature shell)

-Goblins and "red cards" are bad matchups. Powder + Plague was something I considered, as I said in the article, but I'm not really sure what's right.

-I also mentioned at some point Pithing Needle would have been pretty good over Powder in the board. I might still consider that.

-Artifacts and enchantments weren't really a concern, and your "answers" are all present in the form of disruption. CoP Black resolving definitely sucks, but sometimes you just have to hope for the best (using CoP Black as an unrealistic but demonstrative example). And I believe Leyline is your best bet against Replenish, even if they get 8 Seal of Cleansing if they want.

-Cutting some pump knights is probably correct in a newer format more devoid of Fish and White Weeniesque decks. I don't know that much about Legacy (right now), but upon re-evaluating the deck, I would look to those 8 creatures as being the "worst". It's possible the original hatred shell is the place to be.

-Furthermore, I think one very important factor to keep in mind is that you can't win every matchup or from every situation. Goblins is still a bad matchup, and if that particular deck is EVERYWHERE, then it's probably time to find a different deck to play. As I stated in the article, I really built the deck to beat Fish and Flash, and anything else was gravy. If Fish and Flash are no longer around, then it might be time to move on (though I think if Gush and Replenish returning impact the format as much as I think they might, the deck could remain viable)

-Finally, I don't like Dystopia as much as I like Scroll because Scroll was more flexible (could kill Fish creatures as well as providing reach against things like Landstill). However, the format has changed, as everyone keeps reiterating, so I leave it up to you stalwarts of Legacy to determine the correct course of action through testing, and look forward to checking back in with the format this August while covering the Legacy and Vintage Championships for WotC.

Thanks all,
Bill Stark
editor, Londes.com

Hummingbird TG
06-07-2007, 03:45 AM
(though I think if Gush and Replenish returning impact the format as much as I think they might, the deck could remain viable)


(emphasis mine)

Isn't Gush still banned in legacy?

C.P.
06-07-2007, 09:06 AM
-Eternaldarkness, you were the person I was talking about (I'm sorry I didn't have your name written down, but nice job noticing that creature shell)

-Goblins and "red cards" are bad matchups. Powder + Plague was something I considered, as I said in the article, but I'm not really sure what's right.

-I also mentioned at some point Pithing Needle would have been pretty good over Powder in the board. I might still consider that.

-Artifacts and enchantments weren't really a concern, and your "answers" are all present in the form of disruption. CoP Black resolving definitely sucks, but sometimes you just have to hope for the best (using CoP Black as an unrealistic but demonstrative example). And I believe Leyline is your best bet against Replenish, even if they get 8 Seal of Cleansing if they want.

-Cutting some pump knights is probably correct in a newer format more devoid of Fish and White Weeniesque decks. I don't know that much about Legacy (right now), but upon re-evaluating the deck, I would look to those 8 creatures as being the "worst". It's possible the original hatred shell is the place to be.


It has been my lifelong dream to T8 at Grand Prix with Suicide Black. Props and Slops at you for achieving it before I did. *bow*

Replenish decks that I'm talking about does not rely on the card, they are more like enchantress decks that draw large volume of card to win. Leyline is not a good answer in such matchup, since it only hoses one and only card in the deck that acts as supplementary strategy. Also It probably does not have place in the deck, since flash is no more.

Enchantments will be a problem in this new meta, at least for a while for following reasons:

1. Replenish's back and People are eager to try it.
2. Goblins are on the top again and enchantments are very good against them.

I completely agree on the point about Red. The part of the reason that you were successful, I believe, is that flash got most of Red out of the format.

On the scroll, I really like the card in the deck. I sometimes drop jitte for them. I agree on keeping them around. Needle(or null rod) should be pretty helpful, as well. I'm not sure if I like serum powder(post Flash), but I never tried the card in the deck before, so I can't say much.

technogeek5000
06-07-2007, 05:29 PM
I have updated my sideboard to prepare for replenish decks (-2 contaigon, +2 dystopia as was suggested). So that would give me a sideboard of...

4 Eplauge
4 dystopia
3 null rod
3 Planar void
1 duress

I think this is the sideboard im going to bring to the 4x sea drake thing. This along with the new post flash build to my deck i think has a good matchup against alot of the decks you will see.

Goblins (favored): You have 8 zombies that answer lackey and trade with everything else they have. Confidant gives you a better mid/late game so you can probably beat them game 1.Post board is simple, either play zombies and try to get a plauge out as fast as possible. if you do, disrupt there hand and board so they wont be able to get rid of it. If you cant then play out like pre board.

UGW Thresh (red thresh is this except negators)(slightly favored): Pre board is not that great, what you want to do is try and prevent them from getting thresh and disrupt their mana base at the same time. Negators munch all their creatures so play him as fast as possible. Post board you will be playing like g1 except you have voids.

Iggy pop/TES/belcher(favored): Munch their hand and mana Sidebaord out all the dead removal and sidebaord in null rods (and voids for iggy). Its very easy to beat with more hate.

Enchantress, any other replenish decks (slightly favored): Discard and landkill are golden here. You want to play hymns, duresses, wastes, sinks, and hippies as fast as possible. Disrupting them is key here so they cant combo off. Dystopia basically wins the game because it will hit anything that escapes your other disruption.

eternaldarkness
06-08-2007, 05:00 AM
Looks like a solid sideboard list technogeek. I still haven't thought up of a good list for my own Sui but I think that's the list I'm going to use as a starting point. My only change would be to maindeck the fourth duress.

I agree Goblins is a tough match but hardly unwinnable. Their problem cards are Goblin lackey and Ringleader since both can give the goblins player a powerful tempo boost/card advantage.

Anyone of our 1cc 2/2 bears can stop lackey but Ringleader is harder to answer.

Pre-board the card you really need to get online is Umezawa's jitte as this card absolutely rapes any form of aggro and can help you go toe to toe with Ringleaders. Post-board you got Engineered Plagues and Rituals to push the enchantment through Ports. Its actually much easier than it sounds since Wastelands do squat to Black Aggro (too many basics). My sideboard plan is to cut the maindeck sinkholes (subpar against goblins) for E-plagues. That should do the trick.

I'm also currently experimenting with Anwar's creature base, cutting the last of the pump knights for larger creatures. I'm currently using 3 Rotting Giants + 1 Wretched Anurid to see whether this will help the goblins match. 2cc 3/3s should prove invaluable for combat purposes.

Thanks for the mention Bill Stark! You are currently a god among us Sui Players here in the Philippines :laugh:

Edit: Concerning Hatred...why aren't we using this? It is probably too slow but as I recall, old Hatred builds ran full sets of Dark Rituals, Ancient Tombs, City of Traitors to get Hatred out turn 2 on the back of a turn one Critter with Unmask for protection. Could this build possibly work for Sui?

C.P.
06-08-2007, 10:54 AM
Edit: Concerning Hatred...why aren't we using this? It is probably too slow but as I recall, old Hatred builds ran full sets of Dark Rituals, Ancient Tombs, City of Traitors to get Hatred out turn 2 on the back of a turn one Critter with Unmask for protection. Could this build possibly work for Sui?

Lightning Bolt, Sword to plowshares, Daze, Force of Will. There are simply too many cheap disruption to hose it, even with duress + Unmask backup.

Since paying X life is additional cost, you will lose if something does not go well. And it being 5 mana is just simply too slow and hard to protect. The old Hatred Sui ran broken things like consultation, so protecting your hatred much easier. I also have to remind you that Hatred is good only if you run 8 shadow creatures, which are not amazing in this format.

Tacosnape
06-08-2007, 01:21 PM
Edit: Concerning Hatred...why aren't we using this? It is probably too slow but as I recall, old Hatred builds ran full sets of Dark Rituals, Ancient Tombs, City of Traitors to get Hatred out turn 2 on the back of a turn one Critter with Unmask for protection. Could this build possibly work for Sui?

While I personally hate Hatred (ironic, no?), one of my teammates actually runs it. It pitches to Unmask in a pinch, and you run enough hand-searching discard to know if it's safe or not.

technogeek5000
06-08-2007, 02:36 PM
I used to run hatred in my old sui build and it worked quite well. I had 8 zombies at the time and ran 3 culling the weak to get hatred out fast enough. Though i agree with C.P., there are to many ways for hatred to backfire... also revealing it to confidant always hurt. I replaced them with more creatures and control and it made my list alot more consistent.

Tacosnape
06-08-2007, 02:47 PM
I used to run hatred in my old sui build and it worked quite well. I had 8 zombies at the time and ran 3 culling the weak to get hatred out fast enough. Though i agree with C.P., there are to many ways for hatred to backfire... also revealing it to confidant always hurt. I replaced them with more creatures and control and it made my list alot more consistent.

Hatred and Confidant don't belong in the same deck, and not just because of their non-synergy, dissynergy, or just plain suckiness together. It's more of a philosophy thing.

Confidant aims to win games by generating you card advantage to further your disruption and board position.

Hatred fits in the more suicidal, aggresive scheme, and aims to hit you with a single, quick killing blow.

Both cards use your life total as a resource to do it.

C.P.
06-08-2007, 06:07 PM
Since we're all back to old suicide build and even hatred is being discussed, I figured that I'll share my experience with some of the obscure suicide black cards that I tried for past 6 years, just for some idea.


Kaervek's Spite: I played 2 in maindeck for quite a while(before I tried sinkhole). It is all or nothing card like Hatred, but it is cheaper and easier to protect. You don't need creatures to make it work, as well.

Spoils of Vault, Grave pact, Infernal Tutor, Plunge into Darkness :Tried these for old Consultation spot. All of them are not too bad, but I ended up cutting them for lower land count and higher threat density.

Graveborn Muse :Played as anti control weapon. Dark Confidant is about bazillion times better, though.

Bad Moon, Sinister Strength, Unholy Strength: Bad moon is the best of these, of course. I cut these because of control matchup, but it might be worth testing against modern aggro. Who knows?

Twisted Experiment, Riot Spikes : Serves double duty as removal and extra damage. Dauthi Slayer + TE is fun.

Snuff Out, Spinning Darkness, Contagion: 'Free' removals. Snuff Out was very useful in Dragon infested Environment. Spinning Darkness is bad with bob, but very useful in race situations.

Skittering Skirge, Skittering Horror: Not bad, especially if your creature count is low.

Mesmeric Fiend: There was a time when I hated dragon so much.

Hidden Horror, Mercenary Knight: I liked them when my deck packed unearth and stuff. God, that was long ago.


I admit most of things in the list is janky and not worth testing, but I thought throwing out bunch of idea can't be bad. I would not get into Jankier ones.:wink:

eternaldarkness
06-09-2007, 01:39 AM
Yeah on second thought Hatred does seem too easily disrupted. Even with Unmask+duress. I forgot that old builds relied on demonic consultation and the lack of which is a severe blow to the archetype.

@C.P: I'm fooling around with some of the cards you mentioned. Kaervek's Spite is iffy since it was mostly used in the old days to get around CIPT: Black (not a common occurrence nowadays) and on the back of demonic consultation (banned). You don't draw it often enough to make a difference and even if you draw it, it is usually a win more card.

The most promising card you mentioned is Skittering Skirge. Like I said before, I'm currently trying out different creatures to replace the last 4 remaining pump knights in the main. I tried out 3 Rotting Giant+1 Wretched Anurid but right now I'm thinking of replacing 1 Rotting Giant and 1 Wretched Anurid for 2 Skittering Skirges. Thoughts?

Tacosnape
06-09-2007, 04:45 AM
Skirge is garbage unless you maindeck Therapy.

C.P.
06-09-2007, 12:06 PM
Skirge is garbage unless you maindeck Therapy.

Agreed. It is very good with Therapy, though.

technogeek5000
06-12-2007, 02:12 PM
I Havent been on in a while because I have finals this week but i wanted to say a few things.


@C.P: I'm fooling around with some of the cards you mentioned. Kaervek's Spite is iffy since it was mostly used in the old days to get around CIPT: Black (not a common occurrence nowadays) and on the back of demonic consultation (banned). You don't draw it often enough to make a difference and even if you draw it, it is usually a win more card.

The most promising card you mentioned is Skittering Skirge. Like I said before, I'm currently trying out different creatures to replace the last 4 remaining pump knights in the main. I tried out 3 Rotting Giant+1 Wretched Anurid but right now I'm thinking of replacing 1 Rotting Giant and 1 Wretched Anurid for 2 Skittering Skirges. Thoughts?

Kaeverks spite: This card is definately a win more card, and this deck does not need that. Whenever you havethe opportunity to play this card, you probably should have won already and the card slot would be better as a disruption slot.

Your creature base: Umm do you run dark confidant, if not then you probably should, its great tempo which is what this deck is about. If you do, then why the sudden glorification of skittering skirge. The only time its good is late game and even then if your running confidant this will probably be a drawback. Rotting giants are good but they interfeer with ghastly demise if you run them and wretched anruid... I dont think 1 life per creature justifies only a 1/1 increase in power. if your looking for creatures to fill the gap, carnophage/ sarcomancy are great tempo or you could even run withered wretch if it suits your meta (probably not the optimal choice... im just throwing a few ideas around).

AnwarA101
06-12-2007, 02:15 PM
Your creature base: Umm do you run dark confidant, if not then you probably should, its great tempo which is what this deck is about.

I have serious doubts about whether Dark Confidant generates anything remotely close to tempo. How can you say Dark Confidant generates tempo?

technogeek5000
06-12-2007, 02:18 PM
Ok we all know that tempo is the amount and value of turn based resources. One of these resources obviuosly is drawing a card. Now draw 2 cards instead of 1... You are attaining more resources, creatures, disruption per turn then without it so i believe that it does in fact generate tempo.

AnwarA101
06-12-2007, 02:27 PM
Ok we all know that tempo is the amount and value of turn based resources. One of these resources obviuosly is drawing a card. Now draw 2 cards instead of 1... You are attaining more resources, creatures, disruption per turn then without it so i believe that it does in fact generate tempo.

I think defining tempo can often be difficult, but I don't think drawing cards is the same as generating tempo. That would mean every card advantage spell would generate tempo and I don't think that's the case at all. Tempo and Card Advantage are two different things and they shouldn't be thrown together.

I found "Systemic Thought" (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/zm42) by Zvi Mowshowitz really helpful. It talks about games that are determined by tempo and the games determined by card advantage. These games look very different.

Tacosnape
06-12-2007, 02:35 PM
Dark Confidant generates card advantage, not tempo. The cards you draw off of it can generate tempo, depending on what cards you draw. But Confidant in itself does not generate tempo.

technogeek5000
06-13-2007, 12:53 PM
I was looking at the first pages of this thread and saw a card i think has potential in Sui black: Snuff Out (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Snuff_Out). This card obviously has bad dissynergy with confidant, but if you dont run Bob then this card is probably one of the best pieces of reach black has to offer. Because its free, you can cast a beater, or disruption (a second creature destruction spell could be devastating...) and cast this card. Snuff out would give the deck even more speed which would be extremly beneficial.

Tacosnape
06-13-2007, 01:40 PM
Ooo. Taco likey free spells.

Seriously, though. My teammate ran these for a good while. Forgot all about them until you mentioned them. I hated playing against them. They create such a ridiculous tempo swing.

I think they're definitely worth testing. I just don't know what slot they'd occupy.

technogeek5000
06-14-2007, 12:01 PM
For me they took the place of 3 ghastly demises... i havent got that much testing in for them but for the little that i got it has shown some promise.

Also what are everyones opinions on chrome mox... Im thinking about running them if i switch back to ghastly demises.