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Ebinsugewa
05-04-2006, 09:38 PM
(NOTE: Feel free to move/merge this thread if it's too similar to other Tog threads, as there are many. However, they focus on decklists, and in this thread, I am aiming to discuss meta concerns and the benefits of each version of Tog rather than getting my guns behind only one.)

Ever since starting Legacy, I've always wondered, "Why doesn't Tog own this format, like every other format it has ever been legal in?" Since losing Gush and Drain and such, has pure control Tog just lost all its steam? In a format, not unlike Legacy, with a healthy mix of aggro (Ravager and Goblins), combo (Desire), and control (Slide and Scepter), a plain old U/B control Tog won PT LA. I'm sure that this wasn't based plainly on the playskill of Ruel, and that in Legacy, the wider cardpool should make Tog even better, right?

But sadly, Tog has put up no results whatsoever! This is the major point brought forth by Bardo in his article (linked below). Why do you think this is? Is the Legacy community just unable to pilot such a skill-intensive deck? Hardly, I think. But still, the deck has put up few, scattered results. JACO's win at GenCon SoCal was with a more combo oriented Dredge-style deck.

Which leads to the question: is dredge necessary? If so, what shell does it go in? Madness Tog, Control Loam with Deeds, Super-Combo Grave-Troll ZillA style? And what metas are these types of decks correct for? I am sure Tog is viable, but some metas just need a little consideration, and test, test, test!

What say the Source?

Reading section: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/11397.html (Thanks to Bardo for writing the article that sparked my discussion)
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=25643.0 (JACO winning 40 Duals)

Hoojo
05-04-2006, 10:07 PM
I have had great success with a UWbg 'Tog deck, but that was back when Landstill was the DTB. The reason four colors worked is because I only ran two black sources and two green sources, and I would only drop 'Tog when I was ready to win the next round with a tutored Berserk. I've been thinking of reworking it, cutting green (hate to lose Berserk) and go for a more control elements.

BlindMage
05-04-2006, 11:31 PM
There's been some mention of possible brokeness of Infernal Tutor in tog.

Mordenkain
05-05-2006, 05:30 AM
There's been some mention of possible brokeness of Infernal Tutor in tog.

Yes, the synergy between those cards are just awesome. Or fetching mutiple Fact or Fictions seems semi-broken too. Infernal Tutor together with Life from the Loam should be able to breathe back life into good old Tog. But I really think that Tog needs to be an Agro/Control deck nowadays, since blue based control is a little to slow for the current meta. Personally I think the old idea of U/B/R Tog (aka. Burning Tog) is a very good one. Playing enough creature removal, combined with counters and alternative win condition should do the job. Stinkweed Imp for dredging and beating could be nice, or just try to fit in green for Berserk and Life from the Loam. Hmm...

MattH
05-05-2006, 03:37 PM
I'm pretty sure that the super-combo Tog deck is just plain worse than Ichorid.

Bane of the Living
05-05-2006, 05:29 PM
By super combo I assume your refering to Zilla's list.

I didnt like his version because Pithing Needle hit you way too hard. His only out was Echoing Truth and I often needed to use those to bounce Vial or Meddling Mages.

I had alot of luck with a shell like this..

x1 Cephalid Colesium
x4 Underground Sea
x4 Polluted Delta
x2 Wooded Foothills
x3 Lonely Sandbar
x2 Barren Moor
x1 Tranquil Thicket
x3 Wasteland
x2 Island
x1 Swamp
x2 Tropical Island

x4 Tog
x3 Wild Mongrel
x2 Wonder
x1 Stinkweed Imp
x2 Golgari Grave Troll

x4 Mox Diamond
x3 Life from the Loam
x3 Circular Logic
x3 Intuition
x4 Force of Will
x2 Pernicious Deed
x4 Brainstorm

SB
x4 Duress
x2 Pernicious Deed
x4 Blue Elemental Blast
x3 Naturalize
x2 Ghastly Demise

In my opinion Dredge is the path of salvation.

For anyone who hasnt tried the dredge versions, yes Gush is legal again.

Use your upkeep to dredge back grave troll. 6 in yard
Pitch it to tog. Play Brainstorm and dredge back troll, troll, stinkweed. 23
Pitch the three cards to tog, 26 cards in yard. Tog +5.
RFG your cards and swing for 19!

Thats not too far fetched. Use your Intuition to get your dredge cards and brainstorm for the win. Adding mongrel helps overcome Needle hate. Mongrel is great with loam and adding him gives you access to Circular Logic which is the shit. Mox Diamond is the best form of accelerant, no question.

Brushwagg
05-05-2006, 09:55 PM
@Bane:I would change 1 Wonder for 1 Brawn. Just because of alot of flyers seem to be around (Mystic Enforcer and Dragon just to name a couple).

Also there is Burning Tog. Yes it's been a reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally long time since it's seen play but I think it could make a comeback with the meta the way it is now. The list would need to be reworked alittle, but the are so many sorceries that wreck alot of decks.

Examples

Haunting Echoes:Bad news for just about everything. But more then likely could be GG for Gro and if hit right Solidarity.

Perish:All of Gros creatures are green.

There are so many more that I really don't want to type them out.

Ebinsugewa
05-06-2006, 12:33 PM
Also there is Burning Tog. Yes it's been a reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally long time since it's seen play but I think it could make a comeback with the meta the way it is now.

Do you think the versatility is worth it? I find that Burning Wish, in just about every deck I've played it in, is just too slow to be fetching things.


Haunting Echoes:Bad news for just about everything. But more then likely could be GG for Gro and if hit right Solidarity.

Perish:All of Gros creatures are green.

Granted, these are amazing cards in Tog, and Bardo is running them in the sideboard, which I like. But do you think taking up mainboard slots, and spending 4RBB will win you the game with any likelihood? On that note, what would you cut from a proposed maindeck to fit the Wishes in?

I'm currently working on busting Infernal Tutor, so I'll write back if something cool happens. Good to see so much interest in this thread, keep it up.

Brushwagg
05-06-2006, 10:04 PM
Well I probably start with the list in the burning Burning-Tog thread. If it didn't get deleted and update it. I haven't played Tog in a really long time. Just did some testing with Dredge-A-Tog.

@Ebinsugewa: To answer your question yes I would take the versatility everytime. Even Haunting Echoes which usally means GG.

Edit:
Found the thread. I think this was started before the Split and before Burning Wish got banned in the old 1.5. Then when it came back no one really remeber Burning Tog. So here we go. I just copied the first post. To bad Monkie doesn't play Magic anymore. Very good player.


//I Play Badlands
//2cc
4 Nightscape Familiar
3 Fire/ Ice
3 Smother
4 Counterspell
4 Burning Wish
//3cc
4 Psychatog
3 Circular Logic
//4cc
3 Fact or Fiction
2 Deep Analysis
3 Flametongue Kavu
//5cc
4 Force of Will
//Lands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
3 Badlands
2 Swamp
7 Island

Nightscape Familiar- Amazing. I have had some people say that he should be Sapphire Medallion, but I think that taking the risk of having him being killed has a better payoff to have your red spells cost less, too. Not to mention that he WILL go all the way if you can't deal with him, and does present a problematic blocker vs. Aggro. BBE.

Fire/Ice- I think nowadays, an obvious choice that needn't be explained. Just a lot better when Fire or Ice cost R or U, respectively.

Smother- I will be the advocate for this card until the day I die. I love it. It kills basically everything in the format at instant speed. And there is that one little line of text that says, "..can't be regenerated." That is huge when dealing with River Boa. Not to mention that I will take out every creature in Madness outside of Arrogant Wurm. Simply put, amazing.

Counterspell- Not gonna say much here. It ain't no Drain, but it gets the job done.

Burning Wish- Highly underrated, IMO. People tend to immediately write off this deck because it is a Psychatog deck that doesn't play Green for Deed/ Berserk let along Cunning Wish. To be honest, if it's card draw you want, play Cunning Wish, if it's versatility, play Burning Wish. Really nice to be able to find an answer for something for R. Of course, some will say that is the problem with the Sideboard. I am dedicating too many slots for mass removal. Sure, I think I may be. But this deck doesn't want to kill you on turn 4 or 5. It will get to it eventually, and will just deal with whatever you throw at it. Except for enchantments. This deck hates enchantments. Burning Wish- Don't knock it 'til you've tried it.

Psychatog- Upheaval Floating 3. Island. Tog. Go. GG.

Circular Logic- Probably the sketchiest card in the deck. It's a Mana Leak at worst. Generally, after you play a Tog, it becomes a hard counter fot U. At best it's a hard counter for STP after you go Upheaval Floating 3. Island. Tog. Go.

Fact or Fiction- At WORST this card will draw you three cards. At worst. At best, It will draw you five. Usually, you will get one card you need with a land. Part of my favorite opening draw. Turn 2 Nightscape. Turn 3 EOT FoF. I really don't think that we need to explain how good this card is.

Deep Analysis- In here for some added card draw. There really is no room for Intuition/ AK. I already tried. This just has to do. Not to mention you can Wish for it after Flashback.

Flametongue Kavu- MVP. That's really all I have to say. Absolutely nuts. He gives you the rest of the tools to kill every creature in Madness. Not to mention he is a savage beating on O. Almost a guaranteed 2 for 1.

Force of Will- Meh. It's alright.

Manabase- Seems a little shaky, but it's actually working out great. I occasionally get a little flooded, but rarely am I land light. Even if I get stuck on two lands, Nightscape helps out a lot.


What *might* be missing:

Intuition/ AK- Ugh. I want to get this in here so bad. The maindeck is just so solid. It really is. I've considered running just AK's but I figured that to make them good, I would have to cut 2 more useful cards for them. Deep Analysis x2 is better than AK x4 with no Intuition. If you draw all 4 AK's then you get to draw 10 cards total. You get to draw 8 with both Deep Analysis. 2 cards > 4 cards in such a tight Maindeck. If I end up coming to the conclusion of cutting 1 or 2 lands from the deck, I don't think adding Intuition/ AK will be a problem. But until then, I don't think it will be happening.

Wasteland- With such a mana intensive Reset button in Upheaval, having an offensive card that makes me miss land drops seems rather sketchy. Sure it would be great in those games where I get land flooded, but other than that I haven't really thought of or come across any situations where Wasteland would have swung the game in my favor at all.

Cunning Wish- This deck isn't Hulk Smash.

Berserk/ Deed- See above.

Sure Hulk Smash can kill you a lot faster, but I think that this build is a whole lot more versatile at dealing with threats that Hulk Smash is. The only way Hulk can deal with threats is Deed and Cunning Wish. I suppose there are the decks that play the random Diabolic Edicts. Don't compare these two decks, they really just go in completely different directions.

Sideboard Options:
Here is a list of cards that will potentially make the cut every week:

Chalice of the Void- Honestly, It really just took the place of Chill, since I play red. Come to realize that there are a lot of decks that this card is ridiculous against. (3x)

Duress- Not really good enough game one. If I were worried about control, then this would make the cut in the main. But this deck has a very good matchup vs. control decks, and I think that I present enough threats for them to deal with that warrant leaving Duress in the side. If I really need one, I can Wish for it. (3x)

Tsabo's Web- Landstill is a pretty rough matchup. But still winable. Game Two becomes much easier with this and Duress. (2x)

Reprocess- Great finisher vs. Control. Essentially acts as my 4 mana Berserk. Also a fine "Oops, I win," card when they don't play blockers for Tog.

Pyroclasm- Just a really solid Removal spell, IMO. Nice to deal with lots of little bastards all at once.

Massacre- See Above.

Perish- See Above. Cannot be regerated. I like that.

Upheaval- Main win condition. Okay "Oh, shit!" card as well.

Chainer's Edict- See Morphling, Exalted Angel and Troll Ascetic.

Wash Out- Only a Temporary way to deal with enchantments, but thats usually all I need. Most useful vs. Parfait or WW.

Void- Wow. This card is sick. It won me more games then anything else. Most frequently used Wish target.

Demolish- Artifacts tend to be a problem as well. Usually there are only one per game that I might need to deal with. This card is mainly reserved for Vedalken Shackles. Could be Pillage but RRR to Wish for it and cast it in the same turn is a beating.

Braingeyser- Yeah, they unrestricted it.

Some of the card choices need to be changed but a good starting point. Like I said this is like 3-4 or more years old.

Mordenkain
05-07-2006, 05:02 AM
Some of the card choices need to be changed but a good starting point. Like I said this is like 3-4 or more years old.

And still, the list looks solid and streamlined, I think. Perhaps Rakdos and Izzet have something to add. I would really love to see Burning Tog having a comeback, because I love that deck. We should definately work in Infernal Tutor and a Fling.

EDIT: W00t! Post no. 100! :laugh:

mogote
05-07-2006, 05:52 AM
Found the thread. I think this was started before the Split and before Burning Wish got banned in the old 1.5. [...] Like I said this is like 3-4 or more years old.
That is impossible. FoF got restricted in T1/ banned in T1.5 before Burning Wish even was released.

I think Tog of any variation would see more play if it weren't for Pithing Needle and Tormod's Crypt. Both can hit the table before the Tog player's 1st turn. It's not that these permanents cannot be dealt with by a well-constructed Tog deck but imo they're widespread enough to keep people from playing more Psychatogs. So it's splash damage caused by more popular decks.

Brushwagg
05-07-2006, 11:04 AM
That is impossible. FoF got restricted in T1/ banned in T1.5 before Burning Wish even was released.

Ok maybe my timing is alittle off. Just saying that the list is a little old.


I agree, to a point. Burning Tog isn't like Hulk, Dredge-A-Tog etc... It doesn't really go for the fast kill. There is alot stuff that can be added to board to help out with Needle, Crypt etc... I think I'm going to start testing this deck. I really think this can be a real force in the meta.

Edit:Forgot to point out on thing. A protected FTK can go all the way. That is an advantage over other Tog builds.

Citrus-God
05-27-2006, 05:52 AM
That is impossible. FoF got restricted in T1/ banned in T1.5 before Burning Wish even was released.

I think Tog of any variation would see more play if it weren't for Pithing Needle and Tormod's Crypt. Both can hit the table before the Tog player's 1st turn. It's not that these permanents cannot be dealt with by a well-constructed Tog deck but imo they're widespread enough to keep people from playing more Psychatogs. So it's splash damage caused by more popular decks.

Needles... if they have Wishes, they dont care. Also, Burning Tog and Dredgeatog with Cunning Wishes should be able to not get hurt by Tormod's Crypt. Burning Tog's Madallion Men and Kavu will be there for you, and you should be running Alt. Win Conditions like Masticore or Meloku with the protected engine. (Cycle, Dredge, and draw engine lives.)


So what Brushwagg says, I mean, Burning Wish has crazy answers to deal with the format.

TheSorcerer
05-27-2006, 06:35 AM
Hoi!

Needles? Burning Wish for Meltdown ftw - and if you fear Crypt keep smacking with your tog for 3-4 damage and your tog will not be totally cryppled ;)

I really like Burning Tog - actually I like tog in general, because I like playing control decks. I even won a small legacy tournament a few months ago with UBr Tog (http://xoops.spielkultur-gelnhausen.de/modules/news/article.php?storyid=15).

I really like the idea of bringing bruning tog back, I should have a great matchup against Threshold with FTK, Perish and Haunting Echoes should be able to beat Goblins with F/I, Smother, FTK and Pyroclasm can Disrupt combo heavy and evetually finish it off with Echoes.

However, I dont see Infernal Tutor in this deck. He ist great in combo decks and maybe even in some aggro variants, but I do not see him on any control oriented lists atm. Fetching a copy of one of your cards may be nice, but it will not make the card "teh godess" and you will rarely be able to safely exploit it's hellbent version.

Greets

TheSorcerer

Brushwagg
05-27-2006, 10:11 AM
However, I dont see Infernal Tutor in this deck. He ist great in combo decks and maybe even in some aggro variants,

I'm not sure Burining Tog really want Infernal Tutor, because of the 4x Burning Wish. I could be wrong though.

What I think the list from above does need is a little updating. I've been messing around with it on MWS and I feel that Brainstorm or Serum Visions needs to be put in there some where, jsut to get thinks moving a little quicker.

Benie Bederios
05-27-2006, 11:20 AM
I found Dredge-atog quite good( or UBG tog, the only dredge I run is LftL and Dark blast), but it can't run good combo as Reset High Tide and Ill-Gotten Gains Combo. I think Burning Tog is even worse than that. Deed and Psychatog backed up with LftL can stop most aggro deck. And I never liked wish-boards with Sweepers. Especially because you can't wish a card twice. So you're playing only one Pyroclasm wich you draw quite often. Cunning Wish can be used better( I'm not using it though) because it searches for answers against artifact with the same ease, fetches FoF, Darkblast and Berserk.
In short, the use of Tog is more than only finisher. If you're planning to drop Tog when you're winning I suggest you take Morphling because it easier to defend. And using Upheavel looks to slow to, you're better of with Sev-Belcher.

Ps. what is that super combo tog, I couldn't find it( I'm quite lazy)

b4r0n
05-27-2006, 11:26 AM
I've been playing Tog for the past month or so, using the following list:

Lands:
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
5 Island
1 Swamp
3 Lonely Sandbar
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds

Creatures:
4 Psychatog
2 Meloku, the Clouded Mirror
1 Wonder

Control:
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Forbid

Removal:
4 Smother
3 Pernicious Deed

Draw:
4 Brainstorm
3 Fact or Fiction
1 Life from the Loam

Tutors:
2 Cunning Wish
2 Intuition

Sideboard:
3 Engineered Plague
3 Duress
2 Perish
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Ebony Charm
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Naturalize
1 Constant Mists
1 Reclaim
1 Stifle

It's based on what was being discussed in this thread (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3428), with some influence from current Extended decks.

I've had some luck with this build. If you can survive the early game, then you pretty much win. Needle and Crypt aren't that big of a deal, since you have both Wish and Deed to deal with them, or Meloku to just ignore them. You have the tools to handle every deck.

Surviving the early game is the problem. In my opinion, that's the biggest issue that Tog faces in the current meta.

Citrus-God
05-27-2006, 05:58 PM
I've been playing Tog for the past month or so, using the following list:

Lands:
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
5 Island
1 Swamp
3 Lonely Sandbar
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds

Creatures:
4 Psychatog
2 Meloku, the Clouded Mirror
1 Wonder

Control:
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Forbid

Removal:
4 Smother
3 Pernicious Deed

Draw:
4 Brainstorm
3 Fact or Fiction
1 Life from the Loam

Tutors:
2 Cunning Wish
2 Intuition

Sideboard:
3 Engineered Plague
3 Duress
2 Perish
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Ebony Charm
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Naturalize
1 Constant Mists
1 Reclaim
1 Stifle

It's based on what was being discussed in this thread (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3428), with some influence from current Extended decks.

I've had some luck with this build. If you can survive the early game, then you pretty much win. Needle and Crypt aren't that big of a deal, since you have both Wish and Deed to deal with them, or Meloku to just ignore them. You have the tools to handle every deck.

Surviving the early game is the problem. In my opinion, that's the biggest issue that Tog faces in the current meta.

That's a solid list, but the lack of Vedalken Shackles and only 2 Intuitions scare me. I like how you run FoF so your engine doesnt complete die on you versus control decks.

Also, Burning Tog is a great deck. The only variants people should run of Tog in the current format at the moment is Dredgeatog and Burning Tog, as they keep going no matter what.

Burning Tog is a great deck, and has answers to deal with the format. It can Wish for Cranial Extraction versus Combo, and Haunting Echoes/Perish versus Threshold.

My list...


// Lands 22
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
2 Badlands
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Island


// Creatures 11
4 Nightscape Familiar
3 Psychatog
3 Flametongue Kavu
1 Meloku, the Clouded Mirror


// Spells 28
4 Brainstorm
3 Fact or Fiction
4 Fire // Ice
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Circular Logic
4 Burning Wish


// Sideboard 15
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Wash Out
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Haunting Echoes
1 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre
1 Anarchy
1 Perish
1 Flashfires
1 Deep Analysis
1 Meltdown
1 Void
1 Chainer's Edict


Yeah... I run 4 Wishes...

troopatroop
05-27-2006, 07:31 PM
Why the hell do you play circular logic, when you have to have a tog on the table, which you only play 3 of, and is only active by turn 3. Mana leak, or even Spell Snare is better.

Watcher487
05-27-2006, 09:07 PM
Why the hell do you play circular logic, when you have to have a tog on the table, which you only play 3 of, and is only active by turn 3. Mana leak, or even Spell Snare is better.
So you want him to cast it on first turn?

Logic is a mid-late game counterspell that can be used as early as 3 turn but only gets better as the game continues. But I would really only play with 2 of them myself since you are already playing 4 Force of Will and 4 Counterspell.

troopatroop
05-27-2006, 10:43 PM
He has 3 discard outlets. This has been discussed before, and agree upon. Circular Logic is terrible here. At least Dissipate is a hard counter...

Brushwagg
05-27-2006, 10:46 PM
I found Dredge-atog quite good( or UBG tog, the only dredge I run is LftL and Dark blast), but it can't run good combo as Reset High Tide and Ill-Gotten Gains Combo. I think Burning Tog is even worse than that. Deed and Psychatog backed up with LftL can stop most aggro deck. And I never liked wish-boards with Sweepers. Especially because you can't wish a card twice. So you're playing only one Pyroclasm wich you draw quite often. Cunning Wish can be used better( I'm not using it though) because it searches for answers against artifact with the same ease, fetches FoF, Darkblast and Berserk.
In short, the use of Tog is more than only finisher. If you're planning to drop Tog when you're winning I suggest you take Morphling because it easier to defend. And using Upheavel looks to slow to, you're better of with Sev-Belcher.

Ps. what is that super combo tog, I couldn't find it( I'm quite lazy)

Well let's see where to start....
1.Dredge-A-Tog/Hulk smash and Burning Tog are totally different decks, that happen to use Tog. DAT/Hulk go for the quick kill. Burning Tog plays a more control route. It will kill, when it's ready too. If you read through the whole post that would have been explained.

2.Who says you can't wish for the same card twice? The Tog can't remove it from the game.

3.Tog is the main kill.

4.Like I also already said, the list is a little old. But don't forget about the Nightscape Familiar, they do reduse the cost. But this wish slot may get replaced. More testing is needed.

5.Remember the SB is not set in stone. For my testing I'vbe added 3x Engineered Plague to the board.

EDIT 6:The combo they are talking about is Zilla's Dredge-A-Tog list


Why the hell do you play circular logic, when you have to have a tog on the table, which you only play 3 of, and is only active by turn 3. Mana leak, or even Spell Snare is better.

Why not play Circular Logic?? Yes it cost 3, but with a NF out it costs 2, and is alot better then Mana Leak in the late game. Plus not to mention it can cost 1 with a Tog out.

You have to remember Burning Tog isn't build for the turn 3-4 kill. If you want that then play DAT/HULK.

Dr.ugs
05-28-2006, 08:34 AM
I am testing Tog at the moment.All I can say is to try out ZI/Squee instead of Tog.

*It costs less mana
*It is more resilant against creature removal
*When your opponent uses Enchatment removal you still can make some creatures
*It can block kill early armies
*It blocks Piledriver

troopatroop
05-28-2006, 11:05 AM
Wow Drugs. Your name fits.

Tog is resilient to creature removal because you only play it the turn before you're going to win and when you have counter backup. The reason Tog plays so much card advantage is to support this playstyle, and eventually be able to go to the throat. If Creature removal is hurting you, you're playing the deck wrong. Suggesting that ZI/Squee is better opens you up to Enchantment removal, and forced you to run utterly terrible cards that suck if they dont see each other. Tog is still better than those cards combined btw.

* Tog costs 3 mana. ZI costs 2. okay.

* See above on the creature removal.

* Meh. A weak argument. You have to have squees ready to do this.

* Ok. But seeing as the best decks in the format either have 3/3s and 4/4s, or completely don't care about some 2/2 zombies, it's asking alot for ZI to control a board.

* You are correct. It does indeed block Piledriver. Yet if you had Tog out on the table at a time when you needed it to block PD, You're in a desperate situation, and a rare one at that.

Tog is incredibly hard to play, yet copping out with ZI/Squee is not the answer. Practice more, and Tog will yield better and better results than a janky combo.

Dr.ugs
05-29-2006, 09:32 AM
Creature removal matter because many other Decks like UWG Thresh are running removal and they can protect their reomval as well.Many times you are also forced to cast early Togs to block away your opponent creatures(you don´t always draw Deed don´t you..).

ZI is good on its own in the Deck I am playing.Even though getting Squee is not difficult since your playing Intuition anyway.ZI is also good with LftL because you can discard additional copies of LfTL,additional lands,removal against combo..and many other things allthough you will still find some Squees in your yard when you start loaming.

ZI is good because there are still decks around that aren´t named ********.When you started to Intution anyway you will get 2 Zombies per turn which means that you can also answer these 4/4 and 3/3s without even spending mana.

@troopatroop:I´ve been playing Tog for a long time you know.I played it in the old type 2, in Extended,Legacy as well as in Vintage and at least I have a basic grasp of Tog.I did not say that ZI is stronger but I think it should be tested.Maybe you should try ZI before posting weak arguments, or you should test Tog in Legacy because getting your Tog deadly isn´t that easy as it is in Vintage and you don´t always cast Tog the turn before your attacking..

SillyMetalGAT
05-29-2006, 10:44 AM
Dr.ugs: I think between Grave-Trolls, LftL, all the card draw, and Stinkweed Imps you should get 'Tog to be lethal pretty easily....

Citrus-God
05-29-2006, 02:51 PM
Creature removal matter because many other Decks like UWG Thresh are running removal and they can protect their reomval as well.Many times you are also forced to cast early Togs to block away your opponent creatures(you don´t always draw Deed don´t you..).

ZI is good on its own in the Deck I am playing.Even though getting Squee is not difficult since your playing Intuition anyway.ZI is also good with LftL because you can discard additional copies of LfTL,additional lands,removal against combo..and many other things allthough you will still find some Squees in your yard when you start loaming.

ZI is good because there are still decks around that aren´t named ********.When you started to Intution anyway you will get 2 Zombies per turn which means that you can also answer these 4/4 and 3/3s without even spending mana.

@troopatroop:I´ve been playing Tog for a long time you know.I played it in the old type 2, in Extended,Legacy as well as in Vintage and at least I have a basic grasp of Tog.I did not say that ZI is stronger but I think it should be tested.Maybe you should try ZI before posting weak arguments, or you should test Tog in Legacy because getting your Tog deadly isn´t that easy as it is in Vintage and you don´t always cast Tog the turn before your attacking..

I remember in old T2 (The one Wake won Worlds), there was a deck called Upheaval Infestation. It was a deck that uses broken draw, counters and removal to back it up, and it wins the game by playing Upheaval, then Infestation, and then you discard like hell. Some people even had Togs in their builds.

Also, judging from the new cards released and the new tech discovered, I personally think it's not that bad...


// Mana 26
4 Mox Diamond
2 Lonely Sandbar
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Cabal Pit
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea


// Creatures 7
4 Dark Confidant
3 Psychatog


// Spells 25
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Exploration
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Life from the Loam
4 Zombie Infestation
2 Intuition
3 Upheaval


// Sideboard 15
1 Upheaval
2 Darkblast
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Engineered Plague


It's just something I have off the top of my head. I'm not using Squee or KH, but I have Life from the Loam and Heaval.

Now Confidants are there because it's most likely to draw into land. Top will protect you from hitting Heval and FoW. But let's get this cleared; this deck seems more like aggro control. It wants board control, and pressures with heavy draw, board control, and powerful creatures. I think this deck can seriously make it. I'm off to do some mild testing...

Brushwagg
05-29-2006, 10:00 PM
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Cabal Pit
3 Upheaval

That is scary. 8 lands that can't be fetched for and ping you when tapped for mana. Ouch....I would probably go down to 1 each and add some basics. That would be a good start. Also Upheaval is your only main deck "removal". How are you going to deal with any aggro that can put you on a fast clock?? You can't counter everything, and you list doesn't look like it can get the yard filled fast enough.

I would add in some creature removal IE Smother, Edict, etc... and some form of draw IE Brainstorm, FoF(at least 1), AK(possible), or even Serum Visions.

Getsickanddie
05-29-2006, 11:11 PM
On top of the ping lands, you're playing four dark confidant. I love Bob, but your also playing 3 upheavals, and 4 force of wills? Sure your playing top, two tops, TWO TOPS. That's not even addressing the fact you have no removal (other than upheaval, ha) to deal with anything your opponent does to you.

Citrus-God
05-30-2006, 01:34 AM
Cabal Pit, LftL, and Exploration is svg tech.


@Brushwagg: This is a bad deck so show an example that ZI can work in Tog, other than that, I'm still testing...

Brushwagg
05-30-2006, 10:36 PM
I wouldn't even run it in a Tog build. I would almost always go for Wild Mongrel first, then Zombie Infestation if there was room in the main deck. I love Mongrel, it fits really nice into Dredge-A-Tog as an early threat that can go the distance that you don't care if it dies, helps start the Dredge engine, and can still be a problem even if the Graveyard gets nuked (also has the nifty color change ability). Not to mention I think you waste to much deck space to get the whole ZI engine in there.

Speaking of Dredge-A-Tog I think I have found a card that has some promise.

Pedantic Learning
Casting Cost:UU
Text:Whenever a land card is put into your graveyard from your library, you may pay 1. If you do, draw a card.

You should be able to get a couple of extra cards or more Dredges out of it.

MattH
05-31-2006, 11:20 AM
I've tried ZI. It's rubbish without Squees or Horrors or something. Loam is not enough to fuel it. Against aggro (read: goblins) you end up spending 1G every turn to make a zombie to block when you could be spending that mana to actually advance your own gameplay. It's lousy at blocking, and if you need a threat against removal.dec, play Haunting Echoes or Gigapede or something.

Pedantic Learning...eh. In the more combo-heavy builds (with like 5+ dredge cards including some Grave Trolls), you don't have the mana to spend on that. In the controlling builds (the kind I like, with just like 2 Loam 1 Darkblast for dredge), you also don't have the mana, but for a different reason: turn two you want to keep Cspell back, your three slot is so clogged it spills over to your four slot...and after that Intuition finds you your draw engine and you never lack for card drawing again.

It's a neat idea, but I don't think Tog needs more draw. What it could use is cheaper or more flexible answers. More blue spells would also be nice. :D

Brushwagg
05-31-2006, 10:23 PM
I'm messing around with Pedantic Learning. You are right though it's more "combo" heavy. But being able to change even 1 more Dredge off a EOT Brainstorm/AK/(anything that says draw a card) seems worth a shot. At worst you draw a card.

Ebinsugewa
08-04-2006, 01:33 AM
I know this is a pretty savage necro, but I thought that it would be relevant enough to post. I recently won a 12 or so player tournament with a UBG Tog build. I never felt that there was any point in the goings that I would lose, my deck kept spitting up answers. That's one thing that I didn't realize in testing.. how often you just use your sheer power level to win games. Like, in one game against an Anthem weenie build, any combination of Mystical Tutor, Intuition, Pernicious Deed, or Vedalken Shackles would keep me in the game. Combined with cycle lands, Brainstorm and fetches, and other goodies, I found these answers really quickly. I even won a game against Confinement Slide at 1 life and with 2 cards left in my library.. and he was at 27. And I had Force backup. A sidenote, play Haunting Echoes maindeck for the love of God. It's so good against this format. Seriously.

EDIT: Decklist, finally:
// Lands
4 Polluted Delta (I don't think Needle is enough of an issue to warrant the inability to fetch black sources with more Strands)
2 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Bayou (experiment, will probably change to a basic Swamp)
4 Island
1 High Market
1 Wasteland

// Typical Tog Stuff
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Duress (I feel having these maindecked shores combo to a winnable enough point game one, while hopefully not getting in the way of aggro matches)

// Intuition Plan
3 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
3 Lonely Sandbar

// Mystical Toolbox
1 Mystical Tutor (Thinking about 2, because they're so good with cycling lands especially)
1 Fact or Fiction (Also thinking about two, because dredging one sucks, and increases the ability to draw it naturally)
1 Haunting Echoes (Retarded against basically the entire format)

//Removal Suite
3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Darkblast

//Man Plan (Debating an Eternal Witness, because Genesis + Witness = Super Regrowth)
3 Psychatog
3 Nimble Mongoose
1 Wonder
1 Genesis

My sideboard was random stuff I threw together at the event, it's nothing to speak of for testing purposes. Any ideas on my manabase, what I could have included or things you'd cut, increase, or decrease? I know I won a small tournament, but I feel that Tog is good enough against the top tiers while maintaining the ability to crush unfocused decks and to do well against the rogue stuff you're bound to see at any large Legacy tournament. Thanks for the help!

SuckerPunch
08-04-2006, 07:13 PM
Is there a reason why the supercombo version doesnt' just run 4 berserk MD. When is it bad.

M.Maddox
08-04-2006, 07:19 PM
When it costs $200+ for 4 of them.

Bane of the Living
08-04-2006, 07:26 PM
Is there a reason why the supercombo version doesnt' just run 4 berserk MD. When is it bad.

When tog isnt attacking.

Zilla
08-04-2006, 07:38 PM
When tog isnt attacking.
Correction: when it isn't attacking for at least 10. In other words, it's bad for the entire game except one phase of one turn.

As much as I hate to agree with Toad, I think that one of the more viable strategies for Tog in Legacy is the Wish>Fling plan, because it obviates the attack phase, which is one of Tog's greatest weaknesses in a format chalk full of creature removal. Fling has the added benefit of not costing 50 bucks.

Ebinsugewa
08-07-2006, 12:26 AM
10th Place
Matt Pietarian(Petter Rotten) Burning Tog!!!!

4 Force Of Will
4 Counterspell
1 Circular Logic
4 Fire/Ice
3 Diabolic Edict
4 Brainstorm
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Psychatog
2 Fire Imp
2 Flametongue Kavu
4 Nightscape Familiar
3 Burning Wish
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
2 Swamp
2 Badlands
5 Island
SB:
4 Engineered Plague
4 Duress
1 Haunting Echoes
1 Pyroclasm
1 Deep Analysis
1 Massacre
1 Perish
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Meltdown

11th Place
Steve Normandin(Braves54321) Burning Tog!!!!

4 Force Of Will
4 Counterspell
1 Circular Logic
4 Fire/Ice
3 Diabolic Edict
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
2 Fact or Fiction
2 Intuition
3 Psychatog
3 Flametongue Kavu
4 Nightscape Familiar
3 Burning Wish
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
2 Swamp
1 Badlands
6 Island
SB:
4 Engineered Plague
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Haunting Echoes
1 Pyroclasm
1 Deep Analysis
1 Massacre
1 Perish
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Meltdown


Apparently, they both made good on their promises to play Burning Tog :) Does this version have what it takes to stand up to the current metagame? And does Braves' list (if I'm counting correctly) seriously have 64 cards? Any suggestions to the wishboard?

So do the basic flavors end up being:
1) UBG Dredge
2) UBR Burning
3) UBG Combo?

Does straight up UB Shackles Tog just not have a place in this metagame? It's usually considered the most consistent of all Tog builds in Extended.. but not when it ports?

EDIT: My UBG Dredge build was finally posted a few posts up from here. Make some comments on it, if you'd be so kind.

Moby Dick
08-07-2006, 12:49 AM
I'm having alot of luck playing eternal witness, it's nuts when you can recur haunting echoes and deed and fact or fictions. I uped the land count to 25 because i kept on getting screwed, it's better to have too many land than not enough, and with 3 cycle lands it won't slow you down. The high market looks random, but it really shines when you need an extra point of life or two, is tech with shackles, and saves your few dudes from getting stp'd. Here's my list.

3x tog
1x witness
1x genesis
1x winder
1x meloku
7

3x deed
3x shackles
6

4x fow
4x counterspell
2x duress
10

4x braintorm
3x intuition
1x LftL
1x fof
1x darkblast
1x haunting echoes
1x mystical tutor
12

4x island
1x swamp
4x trop
4x sea
4x delta
2x strand
1x wasteland
1x cabal pit
1x high market
3x lonely sandbar
25

Side Board
3x E.plague
3x needle
2x duress
2x naturalize
2x perish
1x virtues ruin
1x constant mists
1x deed

Also, running 25 lands allows you to safely side out waste, high market, pit, or swamp, because we already know going down to 24 lands shouldn't be a problem.

Ebinsugewa
08-07-2006, 12:52 AM
a list

Our decks are pretty similar because we've been working on them together. Joe, how has Constant Mists been working for you? It seems terrific, but I don't have any and haven't tested it online yet. Does anyone else have experience with the card? Also, between his build and mine, could you maybe help us come up with a decent manabase and sideboard?

EDIT: Has the pain from Cabal Pit been an issue? I've never had much problem stabilizing at a high life total with this deck, but I was wondering about your experience.

Moby Dick
08-07-2006, 01:08 AM
Our decks are pretty similar because we've been working on them together. Joe, how has Constant Mists been working for you? It seems terrific, but I don't have any and haven't tested it online yet. Does anyone else have experience with the card? Also, between his build and mine, could you maybe help us come up with a decent manabase and sideboard?

I really like running 25 lands, as for a decent mana base, the one i'm using right now is pretty solid, and as far as sb's go, I'd say the basic layout is
3 or 4 plagues
0 or 3 needles ( these help in the fight against crypt)
a comination of perish/ virtues ruin
duress #3-4
adding a 4th deed is not required, but it helps in a "permanent heavy meta" (TM)
i dont like blue blasts, because against gobos, plauge is gg already and if you have burn in your meta chill is just better.
I like running mists because it's acts as a plauge against stuff like rg beats, or a.stompy. and can win win games on its own.
it's nice to have naturalize as a way around needle on deed.

you already run mystical tutor, and if you run witness, 1 or 2 copies of a side board card is fine (you have mystic tutor > intuition >witness)

other cards to consider is regrowth or enginered explosives as an alt to deed.

Ebinsugewa
08-07-2006, 02:32 AM
I really like running 25 lands, as for a decent mana base, the one i'm using right now is pretty solid, and as far as sb's go, I'd say the basic layout is
3 or 4 plagues
0 or 3 needles ( these help in the fight against crypt)
a comination of perish/ virtues ruin
duress #3-4
adding a 4th deed is not required, but it helps in a "permanent heavy meta" (TM)
i dont like blue blasts, because against gobos, plauge is gg already and if you have burn in your meta chill is just better.
I like running mists because it's acts as a plauge against stuff like rg beats, or a.stompy. and can win win games on its own.
it's nice to have naturalize as a way around needle on deed.

I like 4 Plagues because (as I told you) one Plague after an Intuition isn't always GG. But with the addition of Witness you could probably go to 3. More testing would probably tell us. I like Needles, because they're obviously versatile against many types of decks. But what about Crypts of our own to fight Thresh, IGG, and the mirror? I currently have 4 Duress total, 2 in the side. I really like the option of going all-in in problem matchups where Duress is relevant. In our sort of random meta, I've included the 4th Deed, but I could see where it would be extraneous. I've got 2 Naturalizes sided right now, I figure I can Mystical for one if I need it, but I don't think I want to rely on that plan so much. I'll probably up that to 3.

3 Engineered Plague
3 Pithing Needle
2 Duress
1 Pernicious Deed
3 Naturalize
1 Constant Mists
2 Tormod's Crypt?

Looks like what I'll use for now.

Moby Dick
08-07-2006, 02:57 AM
I don't like crypts A) because we already have such a great game against thresh B) most of the time we want to needle crypt, not neuter our own deck.

EDIT: What I would like to discuss is what to do in the mirror match.

EDIT2: The pain from cabal pit has never really been a problem. Yeah, some times get it in your opening hand and have to play it, the way I see it is that if you have to take 5,6 damage off it, you're in a losing position anyways (most of the time this means your stuck on 2 or 3 lands). If the mana base does what it should do, you should take no more than 2 or 3 from it if you have to use it for mana. Also playing with 25 lands helps alot. I usually stabalize around 10-12 life in a tight game, which is fine.

Bane of the Living
08-07-2006, 05:09 PM
Well fellow woosta tog players.. It seems tog is picking up in our meta. What I want to ask you, Brenden and Joe.. Is why neither of you plays any acceleration? I know you dont want deed to blow it up but Ive found games with Mox Diamond or Exploration detrimental to how the games turn out. Mox Diamond is especially broken with Life from the Loam if you play it as a 3 of. Turn one fetchland, mox, discard a cycle land, play lftl is such a powered start for the deck.

I like the burning tog lists. PR why did your forsake AK's? Did you feel like they werent needed?

Peter_Rotten
08-07-2006, 05:23 PM
...the burning tog lists. PR why did your forsake AK's? Did you feel like they werent needed?

Intuition/AK was never in the original list. Norm and JP decided they would be a great addition to the deck. I'm still not sold on Int/AK. There is only so much room in the deck and I'd rather be removal heavy and draw light instead of the opposite.

I'll also have you note that the only two matches that Norm's Int/Ak version lost at KDLD2 were matches that I considered almost byes.

Bane of the Living
08-07-2006, 06:23 PM
Intuition/AK was never in the original list. Norm and JP decided they would be a great addition to the deck. I'm still not sold on Int/AK. There is only so much room in the deck and I'd rather be removal heavy and draw light instead of the opposite.

I'll also have you note that the only two matches that Norm's Int/Ak version lost at KDLD2 were matches that I considered almost byes.

Which were? Can you give a short tourny report for us? What were to strengths and weakness's of your build in that meta.

Moby Dick
08-07-2006, 06:50 PM
Last Sunday I went 3-1 at our local tourny, the only loss was in round 4 to an enchantress deck, I had the win game 1 and just gave up because i didn't feel like playing. We all know how eassy the match is anyway.
My round 1 was againt helm/tendrills deck. game one i countered his draw spells and deeded away his helm of awakening, I power up a leathal tog a few turns later. game 2 he boards in negators and hippies, I fow a first turn negator, a 2cd turn negator resolves. i take 7 from a negator and a factory, i drop tog, he swings into my tog with negator, i make yog a 5/6, wiping his board. a few turns later he gets me to 1 factory beats, i stop it by placing down a deed. get a wasteland lock and go to town.

round2 im playing against elves. i run deed. and shackles. nuff said. game two I know i'm gonna win anyways so i mull to 4 to find an intuion or e. plague. turn 3 plague. nuff said.
EDIT: also game 1 i echoes away about 30 elves, lol.

round 3 im playing against affinity, game 1, again deed owns. popping a deed turn 4 = gg. game 2 is a little harder, he gets double enforcers, i hold them off with genesis, then deed for 7.

round 4. yeah.

top 4 split as usual.




Well fellow woosta tog players.. It seems tog is picking up in our meta. What I want to ask you, Brenden and Joe.. Is why neither of you plays any acceleration?
Well, for mox diamond, I don't feel like dropping 60 bucks for a playset. And for exploration, I tryed them, didn't like them. And I expect I won't like mox for the same reasons, they die to deed and I hate seeing them after turn 3. I might as well just try out farseek.




Which were? Can you give a short tourny report for us? What were to strengths and weakness's of your build in that meta. http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=82338&postcount=165


What I would like to discuss is what to do in the mirror match.

Brushwagg
08-07-2006, 10:15 PM
Intuition/AK was never in the original list. Norm and JP decided they would be a great addition to the deck. I'm still not sold on Int/AK. There is only so much room in the deck and I'd rather be removal heavy and draw light instead of the opposite.

I'll also have you note that the only two matches that Norm's Int/Ak version lost at KDLD2 were matches that I considered almost byes.

Look at this way, 3x DA can equal 12 cards. (hard cast and fb)

Where Int/AK can get you 7 maybe 8.

Also look at the deck space it takes up. 3-4x Int 4x AK vs. 3x DA. For Burning Tog DA is loads better. It allows you to play more control cards, remember Burning Tog is Control first kill you when it gets around to it.

Bardo
08-08-2006, 11:54 AM
["Your" Decklist]

Huh. Where have I seen that list before? It looks oddly familiar... ;)


PR why did your forsake AK's? Did you feel like they werent needed?

I think most of the Tog players have walked away from AK. You need to run all of them, the first one is terrible, and you rarely Intuition for them--unless you're already winning or you're really desperate.

Here's where I'm at with mine. But note this is for the general Portland, Oregon metagame where no one plays Goblins and mid-range decks are very popular.

Legacy BAM!* Tog
Blue/Black/Green Control
by Bardo

Draw & Tutors
4 Brainstorm
3 Fact or Fiction
3 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam

Stack Control & Discard
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Duress
1 Forbid

The Bombs (Board Control, etc.)
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Vedalken Shackles
1 Haunting Echoes

Win Conditions & Utility Dudes
3 Psychatog
1 Drift of Phantasms
1 Wonder
1 Genesis

The Mana
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Lonely Sandbar
4 Island
1 Bayou
1 Wasteland
1 Mishra’s Factory

sb 4 Engineered Plague
sb 4 Hydroblast
sb 2 Naturalize
sb 1 Mystical Tutor
sb 1 Virtue’s Ruin
sb 1 Massacre
sb 1 Duress
sb 1 Perish

* "Bombs and Mana Tog"

I don't recommend anyone necessarily play this deck, but it is a blast. For a while I was calling it "Kitchen Sink Tog" since it highlighted most of R&D's best mechanics for the past decade: cycling, buyback, dredge, the "divy" mechanic, incarnations, transmute, and even threshold (when I was running Cabal Pit). But BAM! Tog is just a little more fun to say.

Ebinsugewa
08-09-2006, 02:04 AM
Reading section: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/11397.html (Thanks to Bardo for writing the article that sparked my discussion)

Huh. Where have I seen that list before? It looks oddly familiar... ;)

I hoped I had given credit where it was due, your use of Shackles and subsequent innovation with Mongeese is really the reason I picked up the deck. 'My' in this case referred to physical ownership, i.e. the list I played Wednesday and the cards were mine, I'm sorry if it seemed as if I took credit for the ideas therein, I apologize. I thought I had noted somewhere in the thread that the whole time I had been testing your list, but apparently I was mistaken. From the updated list I made the following minor changes:

-1 Flooded Strand/+1 Polluted Delta = Fetching Bayou was sometimes very relevant for me
-2 Serum Visions/+1 Mystical Tutor and +1 Darkblast = The synergy with cycling lands is incredible, and the tutor effect is obviously helpful when I need an Echoes or other gamebreaker, it's an additional engine card too, so I can endstep fetch Intuition, cycle Sandbar and find my stuff
Also, Darkblast has been very helpful in my meta, where various creature builds are about, and you never know if you'll play Elves or Goblins or what have you

I do however, miss the Serum Visions' ability to smooth out draws, I really miss the library manipulation aspect, setting up for better Brainstorms and FoFs. I feel that the power level of Tog is great enough when Mystical Tutor and Darkblast are more swingy, powerful cards than the benefit of the cantripping effect. Feel free to suggest replacements or to flat out prove me wrong, though.

MattH
08-09-2006, 10:28 PM
I hoped I had given credit where it was due, your use of Shackles and subsequent innovation with Mongeese is really the reason I picked up the deck. 'My' in this case referred to physical ownership, i.e. the list I played Wednesday and the cards were mine, I'm sorry if it seemed as if I took credit for the ideas therein, I apologize. I thought I had noted somewhere in the thread that the whole time I had been testing your list, but apparently I was mistaken.

Damn you Bardo! Taking all my Mongoose credit. (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=26968.0)

I tells ya, I don't get no respect! [/Dangerfield]

Bardo
08-09-2006, 11:19 PM
Damn you Bardo! Taking all my Mongoose credit. (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=26968.0)

I tells ya, I don't get no respect! [/Dangerfield]

Heh. I just said it "looked familiar," didn't I? ;)

Anyway, the list in question was an amalgamation of our (Matt/Bardo) Tog ideas from TMD and our team boards--it wasn't purely your list or mine.

As for my comment to Ebinsugewa, I was just messing around--hence the ";)"

It's not like you stole my not-quite-patented cure for cancer or something.

Ebinsugewa
08-10-2006, 02:15 AM
It's not like you stole my not-quite-patented cure for cancer or something.

Well, that's something we should be talking about anyways, lmk. :)

As for the deck, I've gone 5-1 with it in two weeks, sadly, 4 draws have also been involved, though two have been intentional. The problem is, if I lose game 1-2, it's really asking me a lot to win the third. I never feel like I'm at such a disadvantage that I should just scoop it up and move on? I'd love to add Eternal Witness, as it's just stupid retarded with Intuition (Witness, Genesis, X). It allows you to find your one-ofs without Mystical Tutor, but EOT Mystical for Intuition, cycle, Intuition for engine is too hot to ignore. What are your thoughts on removing cards for Witness, and winning in faster order?

Also, should I just play Madness Tog or a more dredge-oriented list and drop the control elements altogether? That's something I'm also considering.

rockSTAR
08-11-2006, 07:13 AM
Huh. Where have I seen that list before? It looks oddly familiar... ;)



I think most of the Tog players have walked away from AK. You need to run all of them, the first one is terrible, and you rarely Intuition for them--unless you're already winning or you're really desperate.

Here's where I'm at with mine. But note this is for the general Portland, Oregon metagame where no one plays Goblins and mid-range decks are very popular.

Legacy BAM!* Tog
Blue/Black/Green Control
by Bardo

Draw & Tutors
4 Brainstorm
3 Fact or Fiction
3 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam

Stack Control & Discard
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Duress
1 Forbid

The Bombs (Board Control, etc.)
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Vedalken Shackles
1 Haunting Echoes

Win Conditions & Utility Dudes
3 Psychatog
1 Drift of Phantasms
1 Wonder
1 Genesis

The Mana
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Lonely Sandbar
4 Island
1 Bayou
1 Wasteland
1 Mishra’s Factory

sb 4 Engineered Plague
sb 4 Hydroblast
sb 2 Naturalize
sb 1 Mystical Tutor
sb 1 Virtue’s Ruin
sb 1 Massacre
sb 1 Duress
sb 1 Perish

* "Bombs and Mana Tog"

I don't recommend anyone necessarily play this deck, but it is a blast. For a while I was calling it "Kitchen Sink Tog" since it highlighted most of R&D's best mechanics for the past decade: cycling, buyback, dredge, the "divy" mechanic, incarnations, transmute, and even threshold (when I was running Cabal Pit). But BAM! Tog is just a little more fun to say.


Hey bardo I really love you're build and I think I gonna bring it to the German Nationals.
One point about the sb or md: Do you think a darkblast might fit in? At least in th SB cause it kills most of the goblins with only 1 plague out.

Bane of the Living
08-11-2006, 07:38 AM
Im disappointed no one else is playing Chalice of the Void in the maindeck. It stops 2 of togs biggest problems. Swords to Plowshares and Pithing Needle. I can handle the rest without deed.

rockSTAR
08-11-2006, 07:59 AM
Imho Chalice MD is only good if you are able to drop it turn 1.
So you'd have to run either tombs or mox diamonds to justify the MD chalice.

Bardo
08-11-2006, 12:07 PM
Re: Darkblast. Sure, throw it in.

Here are the negotiable slots:

1 Fact or Fiction (though I really like three)
1-3 Duress
1 Forbid
1 Haunting Echoes
1 Drift of Phantasms

The Drift replaced Mystical Tutor as a means to fetch any of my 3cc bombs that Mystical couldn't find: Deed, Shackles and Tog. From the sideboard, it find E Plague, Virtue's Ruin and Perish; while still being able to find Intution and Forbid, should you need it. But it's certainly not a requirement.

Re: Chalice. You know, that's a really good idea. I hadn't considered it maindeck. For testing, I'd say replace the three maindeck Duress with three Chalices. If you need to four, see above for other cutable cards. I'd certainly be inclined to test it without any acceleraton (Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, Ancient Tomb or Exploration) and see how it goes.

Bane of the Living
08-11-2006, 06:00 PM
Togs worst matchups are Goblins and Combo. Running Mox Diamond allows you to play turn one Chalice against them and be worry free for the entire match. They slow down combo so much more than Duress, and Duress was a bad card to play when Gobs is a bad matchup anyways. Not too mention the help cotv gives against the thresh matchups.

Mox Diamond smooths out your mana curve very nicely as well. Playing three colors can show inconsistancy in the face of Wasteland. Not too mention how much better a turn 2 Tog or Shackles is than a turn 3 one.

I played them along side Brainstorm because the card is too good not to run. They rarely bumped into eachother because an opponent would blow up Chalice, or use an important counterspell to stop it. Mid-Late game you can pitch Brainstorm to force.

Moby Dick
08-11-2006, 08:47 PM
Togs worst matchups are Goblins and Combo. Running Mox Diamond allows you to play turn one Chalice against them and be worry free for the entire match. They slow down combo so much more than Duress, and Duress was a bad card to play when Gobs is a bad matchup anyways. Not too mention the help cotv gives against the thresh matchups.

Mox Diamond smooths out your mana curve very nicely as well. Playing three colors can show inconsistancy in the face of Wasteland. Not too mention how much better a turn 2 Tog or Shackles is than a turn 3 one.

I played them along side Brainstorm because the card is too good not to run. They rarely bumped into eachother because an opponent would blow up Chalice, or use an important counterspell to stop it. Mid-Late game you can pitch Brainstorm to force.

I think your trying to take this into an aggro/combo version of tog. by playing mox and chalice, you lose deed. you say that chalice helps the combo/goblins/thresh match up. i agree that it helps combo, but unless you get it turn one with mox, then it doesn't hurt goblins as much as you think. I think deed infinitly better against gobblins and thresh, because if you think about it chalice only stops lacky and vial, leaving you with shackles as your only way to fight goblins md.

I think we need to be trying to find a non-permanent mana accelerator for this deck.

Bane of the Living
08-12-2006, 10:12 AM
I know Im gonna get flamed massively for this but I really think the deck plays better without Deed. Ill argue that there are random situations where deed can catch your opponent off gaurd and you can get a 3 for 1 off them, but generally people are prepared for it.

If deed was so good wouldnt the Rock win a tournament once a year?

For tog to become a tier one contender it cant subcuob to goblins and play too many aggro hate cards. Deeds and Shackles are trash against Combo.
If you dont get turn one Chalice it doesnt matter. You still have Force for turn one 1cc. Then drop Chalice later. Or dont. I dont care. You sideboard Chalice out if your on the draw against gobs.

Also I dont see how swapping out Deed for Chalice is going from control combo to aggro combo. Affinity is aggro combo. Chalice is the shit.

I say go with perms. The only tog decks that look promising and that have been placing run either mox or Exploration. Take a hint.

MattH
08-12-2006, 12:31 PM
I think we need to be trying to find a non-permanent mana accelerator for this deck.
Lotus Petal?

Ebinsugewa
08-12-2006, 09:11 PM
Lotus Petal?

That's exactly what I was going to say. It worked well for GAT apparently, and I don't see why it couldn't work here, if we agree upon the fact that accelerants are actually needed, which I currently don't. What problems would the Petal solve in problem matchups or situations?



If deed was so good wouldnt the Rock win a tournament once a year?

I say go with perms. The only tog decks that look promising and that have been placing run either mox or Exploration. Take a hint.

Point A: Assuming the power of a decklist is contained in 4 cards, especially a board-sweeper is probably the least-convincing argument ever. See also: If Wrath of God is so good, why doesn't Landstill win a tournament once a year?

Point B: Or Burning Wish. The look of promise is in the eye of the beholder, if you will. Without Shackles or Deed, are you hoping to race RGSA and Goblins-type decks with superior creatures? Explain your plan instead of dismissing the idea of being mainly light on permanents outright.

MattH
08-13-2006, 12:32 PM
I don't think I would want Petal except in a much more aggressive build like Moreno's Madness Tog deck from the beginning of last extended season, or GAT which really loved to play a turn one Dryad and Daze the removal spell.

rockSTAR
08-14-2006, 08:16 AM
I played the German Nationals yesterday with Tog and went 3-3-1 drop after 7 rounds. Because of the fact that I didnt have a correct decklist I had to remember how Bardo's list looked like...
But I actually made some mistakes (especially the manabase was HORRIBLE since I lost 2 rounds due to manascrew or colorscrew)

Here is what I played on last sunday and built 30 minutes before tourney started :rolleyes:

4 Brainstorm
3 Fact or Fiction (i luv them)
3 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Duress
1 Forbid (nice1)

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Vedalken Shackles
1 Haunting Echoes
1 Darkblast (really good)

3 Psychatog
1 Wonder
1 Genesis

The Mana
3 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Lonely Sandbar
4 Island
3 Swamp
1 Wasteland
1 Mishra’s Factory
(crappy base I KNOW)

sb 4 Engineered Plague
sb 4 Chalice
sb 1 Naturalize
sb 1 Mystical Tutor
sb 2 Massacre
sb 1 Perish
sb 2 Tormod's Crypt
sb 1 Perish

The maindeck is nearly a copy of the list that bardo posted except my crappy manabase and the darkblast(which was golden).
Unless I wasn't screwed things went very well for me. Factory was good and even the single forbid was really good with an active loam.

I won to Goblins, Lifecombo and Fish
I lost to Madness 2:1 (manascre), U/g/r Thres (colorscrew) and Rock (no screw but his topdeckskill)
I drew to b/w control(cabal coffers, consume spirit swords etc)

Bardo
08-14-2006, 02:14 PM
rockSTAR - :) Heh. It's not the kind of deck you can pick up off the shelf and do well with. I've logged 30+ hours with my UBG Tog deck and am just barely getting the hang of it. In fact, what decks can you just pick up and kick ass with? R/G Beatz? Eh, maybe.

I like the Chalices in the sideboard and I may move them into the maindeck soon.

Also, can you make sense of this thread for me:

http://www.zkforum.de/showthread.php?p=439824#post439824

Is that the thread for German Nationals?

I found the Top 8 lists here (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/gernat06/welcome#12).

And here: http://www.planetmtg.de/articles/artikel.html?id=2424

136 players: http://www.planetmtg.de/articles/artikel.html?id=2421

T8 Pairing: http://www.planetmtg.de/articles/artikel.html?id=2422

What happened after that?

Lukas Preuss
08-14-2006, 04:28 PM
Also, can you make sense of this thread for me:

http://www.zkforum.de/showthread.php?p=439824#post439824

Is that the thread for German Nationals?

Yeah, it's the thread for discussion of the Legacy Event. It happened to be a side event for the German Nationals which resulted in the hugest randomness I've ever seen at a Legacy tournament in Germany... there were virtually no DTBs present (well, they were there, but they were largely underepresented). Do you speak German by the way, since you found this thread?


I found the Top 8 lists here (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/gernat06/welcome#12).

And here: http://www.planetmtg.de/articles/artikel.html?id=2424

136 players: http://www.planetmtg.de/articles/artikel.html?id=2421

T8 Pairing: http://www.planetmtg.de/articles/artikel.html?id=2422

What happened after that?
I have no idea. The entire organisation of the Legacy event sucked, to be frankly. Before the event, people didn't know at what time it was going to start (there was no official site on the internet that had these informations), nobody knew what attendence would cost and what the prices would be... I don't think it's surprising that there is some information missing.

Bardo
08-14-2006, 05:59 PM
Do you speak German by the way, since you found this thread?


Nah, I just like to check out Die Zusammenkunft from time to time to see what the Germans are playing. As you can imagine, I do a lot of guessing. :)

rockSTAR
08-14-2006, 06:04 PM
aaah I have to disagree Lukas. Imho the organisation during the tournament was GREAT. Pairings came VERY quickly after each round was done and the judges were very professionel and serious.

@Bardo: I know you need to test Tog for months to do REALLY well with it but you need to start at one point and that is what I did.
2 Matches I lost because I failed to remember how ur manbase looks like and I palyed 3 basic swamps....they sucked so hard....can't imagine.
I simply wasn't able to drop a deed turn 3 vs madness and grow which simply cost me 4 games....

Imho 1-2 Morphlings in the SB might be awesome. I didn't like the chalices but I wasn't paired against anything that could be hurt by cotv except for 1 nqg/r where I was manasrewed.

At all I'm quite satisfied with my result with a deck what is difficult to play and which I started to built 1 hour before the start of the tournament.

BTW how does you're current decklist looks like?

Bane of the Living
08-14-2006, 06:27 PM
I simply wasn't able to drop a deed turn 3 vs madness and grow which simply cost me 4 games....


Ill say it again and again. Deed isnt that great in tog.


That's exactly what I was going to say. It worked well for GAT apparently, and I don't see why it couldn't work here, if we agree upon the fact that accelerants are actually needed, which I currently don't. What problems would the Petal solve in problem matchups or situations?

Point A: Assuming the power of a decklist is contained in 4 cards, especially a board-sweeper is probably the least-convincing argument ever. See also: If Wrath of God is so good, why doesn't Landstill win a tournament once a year?

Point B: Or Burning Wish. The look of promise is in the eye of the beholder, if you will. Without Shackles or Deed, are you hoping to race RGSA and Goblins-type decks with superior creatures? Explain your plan instead of dismissing the idea of being mainly light on permanents outright.


Show me any top 8 deck playing Pernicious Deeds.

Landstill wins more than a tourny a year. It just made top 8 at worlds.

Burning Wish is for Burning tog not dredgatog. Dredgatog doesnt need control cards like shackles and deed. Dredgatog can dredge enough cards to get lethal tog by turn 4. Its the combo version of tog. It hopes to race aggro like gobs with a huge flying tog or race combo with tog. The non dredgatog lists that run more control cards and cunning wish are the control versions. some play a couple dredge cards like loam or darkblast but forgo the 4 stinkweed imp plan.

im not seeing much success with the dredgatog lists people have ported from extended. But the version playing the red splash with exploration is the fucking shit. pyroclasm and moments peace are rediculous. consider cards like that if you really want to play deed. not perms like shackles.

rockSTAR
08-14-2006, 06:34 PM
rofl...Deed is the only answer to decks like madness and grow...
Shackles is another but more situational. At all deed keeps the board clean of everything not only creatures.

Now PLEASE don't tell me u think shackles>deed in tog:rolleyes:

Bane of the Living
08-14-2006, 06:50 PM
rofl...Deed is the only answer to decks like madness and grow...
Shackles is another but more situational. At all deed keeps the board clean of everything not only creatures.

Now PLEASE don't tell me u think shackles>deed in tog:rolleyes:

I was knocking Shackles because its a very narrow card. You need to invest 5 mana into it to steal your first creature and only if you have 4 islands. Lets say that creatures is a Werebear because your playing against thresh. Your gonna want to play around Daze right? So you play it on turn 4 instead of 3. It comes online turn 5 IF you have 4 islands. What if they didnt even have Bear? Just a couple Mongeese? What if they have Enforcer and you dont have 6 Islands in play. What if you play Shackles, pass the turn, and get it needled? What if your not playing against an aggro deck?

Deed on the other hand is less situational because it can hit all perms in play. The first downside is it takes just as long to put into play. Dont want to get it Dazed by Madness or Thresh right? That makes turn 5 activated. If you didnt get your Deed needled again..

Deed warrants play. I wont agrue against it. All Im saying is its performance is maximized with a minimum number of perms of your own to blow up. I personally like atwa2002's build because he can Intuition for a copy and 2 regrowths. That means he could play one of bombs like 1 Shackle and 1 Deed and not draw them against dead matchups.

rockSTAR
08-14-2006, 07:09 PM
against matchups like grow and goblins you never have time to tutor it up with intu, cast regrowth und clear the board. Goblins aber simply too fast und grow got dazes... hard times.

Moby Dick
08-14-2006, 08:01 PM
@bane- You also have to remember that you're playing the control. You have 8 counters, darkblast, witness/tog/goose/meloku blocks, shackles, cabal pit, a superior draw engine than most opp., duress, in the sb I bring in virtues ruin, perish, constant mist, e.plague, etc. Droping deed turn 3 and hoping you last till turn 4 is not your plan most games.

MattH
08-14-2006, 10:09 PM
Deed is goddamn amazing against randomness, but it's not very good against Goblins, because it takes two whole turns to use. It is very good against threshold. It isn't very good against Madness, because of Arrogant Wurm.

rockSTAR
08-15-2006, 02:58 AM
In my current testing build I cut shackles and the forbid for 3 mongoose and a regrowth to get 2 copies of a card and regrowth with intuition, if u already played the same card before. I didn't like the shackles so much an imho genesis -> mongoose is the better aggro hoser.

Yeah Matt but wurm is the only creature that can't be easily handled by the deed. Mongrel, rootwalla, aquamoeba, brushhopper and all that stuff simply dies.

Lukas Preuss
08-15-2006, 07:43 AM
aaah I have to disagree Lukas. Imho the organisation during the tournament was GREAT. Pairings came VERY quickly after each round was done and the judges were very professionel and serious.

Right, sorry, the organisation *before* the event sucked. During the event, it was great. This is what I meant to say (reasons being the lack of information, etc.).

Ebinsugewa
08-15-2006, 04:04 PM
Ill say it again and again. Deed isnt that great in tog. Dredgatog doesnt need control cards like shackles and deed.

You go on saying it, and I'll keep asking why. In what matchups is it bad? It's the best reset button available to shore matchups against swarm decks. The only way for you to live is to bait them into overextending and sweep the board with Deed. The plan is to set up a Catch-22: they have to overextend, or it gives you time to set up Intuition for the Engine or Plagues if you're playing post board against Goblins.

Dredgeatog is not what I'm playing. Instead of attacking a deck choice, discuss why Dredgeatog is the deck to play. The thread is about Flavors of Tog, not solely about card choices.




I say go with perms. The only tog decks that look promising and that have been placing run either mox or Exploration.Point B: Or Burning Wish.Burning Wish is for Burning tog not dredgatog.

Burning Tog seems pretty promising to me, putting two players in the top 16 of Kadi's DLD2.


Dredgatog can dredge enough cards to get lethal tog by turn 4. Its the combo version of tog. It hopes to race aggro like gobs with a huge flying tog or race combo with tog.

If it wins on turn 4, what does your list look like? I'd love to see it if you're correct, which I'm not doubting. I'm thinking that you may just be experiencing a statistical anomaly. How consistent is the turn 4 win? What is your plan against High Tide combo, which plays Turnabout (or Snap, or both) and a lot of dig to find one? I think it's reasonable to assume that you're not playing any control since you're advocating the removal of Shackles and other "control" cards. Iggy Pop plays maindeck Leyline of the Void, which is terrible for you, what are your answers to that? I really can't find a probable way for you to win against prevalent Legacy combo unless you get the turn 4 goddraw and they fizzle/get a terrible draw in addition. I hope you can explain it better, because turn 4 wins sound pretty good.


im not seeing much success with the dredgatog lists people have ported from extended.

If you're referring to Gifts-Loam versions, there's a reason for that. There's no reason to play Gifts in Legacy, where Intuition is legal (Vintage players can play Gifts, for good reason). Intuition not only serves to start your engine, but to keep you alive with the OH SHIT! 3x Deed, 3x Force of Will tutors. A Demonic Tutor with amazing synergy with Incarnations and the Dredge/Psychatog mechanic? Sign me up.


But the version playing the red splash with exploration is the fucking shit. pyroclasm and moments peace are rediculous. consider cards like that if you really want to play deed. not perms like shackles.

I will agree with you, Moment's Peace is a great card. It pumps your Tog and Fogs twice against Goblins. However, in Extended you can play Moment's Peace, because a) it builds Desire's storm count, and b) Goblins is dead in that format, with no Lackey or Vial. I am worried about playing it against the faster and more inevitable Goblins of Legacy, but I see what you're saying.

I'm not doubting what you say, Nate, just wondering if some of the things you've experienced are able to be reproduced consistently. Help us out with a few lists for your Dredge and Burning Exploration comments, I'd love to see them. All in all, this is what I hoped this thread would turn into, a constant, rapid discussion about what we can do with a retardedly good card like Psychatog. Keep it up.

Ebinsugewa
08-15-2006, 04:23 PM
I was knocking Shackles because its a very narrow card. You need to invest 5 mana into it to steal your first creature and only if you have 4 islands. Lets say that creatures is a Werebear because your playing against thresh. Your gonna want to play around Daze right? So you play it on turn 4 instead of 3. It comes online turn 5 IF you have 4 islands. What if they didnt even have Bear? Just a couple Mongeese? What if they have Enforcer and you dont have 6 Islands in play. What if you play Shackles, pass the turn, and get it needled? What if your not playing against an aggro deck?

I can see what you're saying here, but Shackles has been terrific against an unknown metagame for me. Shackles gives you inevitability against aggro, while you're doing other things like dropping Mongeese of your own to survive to a point where you can amass a bunch of Islands. To tell you the truth, I have stolen Mystic Enforcer (as a 6/6), and Exalted Angel (unmorphed), because my list is set up to survive the short game, stabilize, and win with a superior draw engine and tutor power, which will always include Islands. Against Thresh, your Mongeese match up against theirs pretty well. You can hit Thresh just as quickly if you are racing to get to it, with Intuition as your analog to Mental Note, playing almost if not as many fetches, and your Brainstorms are much like Serum Visions.

If you played Shackles in the Gro matchup without enough mana to immediately activate it, you're not using it correctly. Revealing your removal is not a good plan. Deed comes down before Shackles, clearing out their early game beats hopefully, and Shackles steals the fat like Enforcer or Fledgling Dragon. Playing around Daze will not help you in this match. If they have it or they don't, the effect is the same. You will lose if you play like you have inevitability against an aggro-control deck as good as Threshold. You play a weaker counter package, as you play fewer (8) counters that usually cost mana (sans Force), so you have to force things through when possible, not fight drawn-out counterwars. If they Daze your sweeper, grin and bear it because you play six of them and also six walls. Those are pretty good odds of drawing something relevant to the matchup, right?

If you're not playing against an aggro deck? The only decks I could possibly not consider aggro that see any play would be Rifter/Loam Confinement, Burning Tog, Landstill, Truffle Shuffle, and Storm combo. That's a mighty small percentage of the field, and most of the non-aggro decks still finish with creatures. If there's a matchup where you don't need Shackles, you're just going to have to accept that's it's relevant against 85% of the metagame, roughly and side it out. That's what I believe/have observed/both anyways, feel free to point anything out about these observations, please.


Deed is goddamn amazing against randomness, but it's not very good against Goblins, because it takes two whole turns to use. It is very good against threshold. It isn't very good against Madness, because of Arrogant Wurm.

I couldn't have said it better myself. You're correct all the way. However, against Goblins, if you lay it down turn three, turn four you take out everything but Siege-Gang and Kiki-Jiki, which are one/two-ofs anyways. And they make okay targets for Shackles (well sort of, damn Siege-Gang). At worst, you take 2 and have a Siege-Gang off the board.

Benie Bederios
08-15-2006, 05:11 PM
I'm playing Dredge-A-tog and it can kill turn 4. You must have a hand if a mox/Psychatog/ 2x Stinkweed Imp/ Cunning Wish, and somwhere draw a brainstorm, and must have 5 mana on turn 4, for playing Brainstorm( Dredging 2x Stinkweed Imp) and Cunning Wish for Berserk. But the changes that it happen are very very small, and it would mean that you don't have disruption in your hand, wich means that Goblins and Affinity still races you.

I think Dredge-A-tog is better though because it has a faster kill. With 3 Darkblasts main and enough draw to kill 3/3 with it you are filling up your graveyard as a madman. With Intuition for 2 Stinkweed Imp and a Life from the Loam, a single brainstorm can give your Tog +6/+6. This way Tog can win really out of nowhere. And with the few counters you've got you might be able to run Solidarity.

As for Deed, I think the deck needs a boardsweeper, but I play it SB for beating Aggro( it's savage against Affinity.) It's still is a control deck. I'm still finding a place in the SB for Chalice though, wich is also a card a non UWx control deck must have.

laststepdown
08-15-2006, 05:29 PM
Why Pernicious Deed over Infest? I think it would give the potential to cut green, replacing Genesis with Golgari Thug (recurring Tog is fun), and continuing the synergy with Cabal Therapy over Duress seems like a fine plan after that. LFTL could potentially be a Stinkweed Imp or another Darkblast. I feel like I want Stifle or Daze in this too.

Bardo
08-15-2006, 10:41 PM
Why Pernicious Deed over Infest? I think it would give the potential to cut green, replacing Genesis with Golgari Thug (recurring Tog is fun), and continuing the synergy with Cabal Therapy over Duress seems like a fine plan after that. LFTL could potentially be a Stinkweed Imp or another Darkblast. I feel like I want Stifle or Daze in this too.

You run Deed because it kills dudes x/2+ (e.g. Werebear, Enforcer), annoying artifact (e.g. Pithing Needle) and even more annoying enchantments (e.g. Humility). Deed is amazing. As for recurring Tog (Thug), Genesis is awesome and also a source of card advantage. Stifle seems "meh" and the deck is really too slow and mana-hungry to exploit Daze (unlike Thresh).

MattH
08-15-2006, 11:21 PM
However, against Goblins, if you lay it down turn three, turn four you take out everything but Siege-Gang and Kiki-Jiki, which are one/two-ofs anyways.
The problem is that you tap out turn 3 to play Deed and they kill you before you get to untap. Or you're stuck on 3 land and they Waste one, then keep swinging. Or you're on 3 land and they resolve Ringleader. There's a lot of situations where spending 3 mana then 3 or 4 more mana isn't good.

Also, Goblins can often slow-roll you, playing out 2-3 guys at a time, depending on what other creatures you're running (or if you have Wish->Berserk available).

If they don't have Piledriver out, I would rather spend my third turn playing a Tog. If they do, I would play Deed and cross my fingers that I live to use it.

Deed is of course much better on the play, but I would still side 1-2 out against goblins in favor of faster spells.


Stifle seems "meh" and the deck is really too slow and mana-hungry to exploit Daze (unlike Thresh).
The other reason Daze isn't good is because if you're using the 3cc bombs you can't afford to undo a land drop. If you fit Exploration in, then we'll talk.

Daze is also pretty bad with Shackles.

Ebinsugewa
08-16-2006, 12:16 AM
The problem is that you tap out turn 3 to play Deed and they kill you before you get to untap. Or you're stuck on 3 land and they Waste one, then keep swinging. Or you're on 3 land and they resolve Ringleader. There's a lot of situations where spending 3 mana then 3 or 4 more mana isn't good.

Granted, but the Goblins player has to have a pretty consistent draw and also no disruption from me (in the order of Mongoose or counters) in order to totally obviate Deed. It is a very inefficient answer to Goblins, but if it takes out a Piledriver/Warchief, keeps you alive, sweeps a Vial, then it's good enough for me. I usually keep my Deeds in, just in case. I perfectly agree with your decision to keep them in, as well.


Also, Goblins can often slow-roll you, playing out 2-3 guys at a time, depending on what other creatures you're running (or if you have Wish->Berserk available).

Granted as well. Hopefully, this is the plan though. My Deed gets through and they drop a Warchief and a Piledriver say. By this point I can untap, lay a Tog or Shackles and have counter mana up. Usually this is enough of a stall to where I can start Intuitioning for Plague or the engine to start heading in the proper direction. My fundamental turn is usually 5, because that's Shackles and activation, Deed/Tog/Intuition with counter backup. It's a bit slower than Goblins, granted, but if I slow them up that turn, I should be in a better position than even okay draws should allow me to take it down.


If they don't have Piledriver out, I would rather spend my third turn playing a Tog. If they do, I would play Deed and cross my fingers that I live to use it. Deed is of course much better on the play

Also, absolutely correct. One of the reasons I especially like to keep Deed in when I've lost the first game.

rockSTAR
08-16-2006, 07:10 PM
Hey guys.
My current listing looks like this:

// Lands
4 [8E] Island
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [4E] Mishra's Factory
3 [ON] Lonely Sandbar
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [U] Underground Sea
4 [R] Tropical Island
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [U] Bayou

// Creatures
1 [JU] Genesis
3 [OD] Psychatog
1 [JU] Wonder
3 [OD] Nimble Mongoose

// Spells
2 [US] Duress
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [IN] Fact or Fiction
3 [TE] Intuition
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Counterspell
1 [OD] Haunting Echoes
1 [RAV] Darkblast
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
1 [B] Regrowth

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Duress
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [OV] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [ON] Naturalize
SB: 1 [6E] Mystical Tutor
SB: 2 [NE] Massacre
SB: 1 [6E] Perish
SB: 1 [SH] Constant Mists
SB: 2 [IN] Tsabo's Web

I' not sure about the mongoose here. I mean they hose everything that is read and ale as well as random aggro...

The one regrwoth is for intuition if only 2 cards of the same name are available in the library

The webs in the SB are against the new land.dec that will become a art of the new metagame imho(if it's good or not)

what do you think of this?

Moby Dick
08-16-2006, 08:30 PM
Why do you use 3 delta and 3 strand? 4 and 2 is strictly better.

rockSTAR
08-17-2006, 02:54 AM
It was formerly thought vs. needles but yes with the bayou 4 delta 2 strand should be better.

But what do you think of the rest? Esp. the Mongeese

Ebinsugewa
08-17-2006, 08:11 PM
But what do you think of the rest? Esp. the Mongeese
EDIT: Decklist, finally:
<snip>
//Man Plan (Debating an Eternal Witness, because Genesis + Witness = Super Regrowth)
3 Psychatog
3 Nimble Mongoose
1 Wonder
1 Genesis

Probably the same as we already did.

Also: @ Your decklist. You're -1 Delta/+1 Strand, +1 Factory/-1 High Market, +2 Fact or Fiction/-1 Mystical Tutor and -1 Shackles, +1 Regrowth. That's only a negligible 4/5 card difference from the list I already posted and have been working on. Did you read the thread? I don't mean to be condescending, but reducing your ability to fetch Bayou, turning off your sacrifice engine, adding expensive unnecessary cards to cut two of the best cards in the deck, and adding a one-of Regrowth that suffers from the same problem it seeks to fix does not significantly change the deck except for the worse. So you can Intuition for 2 ofs? Well, now you're incredibly more reliant on Intuition to find things that are only there to keep you alive until you can Intuition for the engine in the first place. How do you find Haunting Echoes without Mystical Tutor or Genesis -> Witness? I think you're just missing the fundamentals of the deck's construction. Read the whole thread over.

Moby Dick
08-18-2006, 01:34 AM
I've been messing around with exploration, and it turns out it make the deck faster than affinity (almost). I't alows me silly tricks with LftL, one game I had a hand of exploration,LftL,delta x2,3 other cards, i got 5 lands turn 2 with mana available to play counter spell or intuition. Exploration also lets you take down stuff like enforcers with cabal pit. It doesn't matter if you blow it up with deed (thats if you don't draw another), because it alows you to play and activate deed for 3-4 on turn 3.

Here's the list I updated, I cut the fetches down to 5 to fit market (I really don't want to cut market,pit, or waste) and so far it hasn't been a problem. The only changes I might make are moving darkblast back to the main, but there are alot of matches where it's just not relevent. I really want to up the shackles count up to 3. And I'm thinking about cuting mystical tutor because with witness I can use intuition to tutor 1 ofs, and i rarley use it other than FoW fodder- It could even become the 4th intuition or 3rd shackles. So give me your opinion on this list and what you would change about it.



3x morphling
1x witness
1x genesis
1x wonder
6

4x exploration
3x deed
2x shackles
9

4x fow
4x counterspell
2x duress
10

4x braintorm
3x intuition
1x LftL
1x fof
1x haunting echoes
1x mystical tutor
11

4x island
1x bayou
4x trop
4x sea
4x delta
1x strand
1x wasteland
1x cabal pit
1x high market
3x lonely sandbar
24

Side Board
3x E.plague
3x needle
2x duress
2x naturalize
1x perish
1x virtues ruin
1x constant mists
1x deed
1x darkblast


What about stinkweed imp? He fills the yard fast,and he's recuring removal.

Ebinsugewa
08-18-2006, 02:37 AM
And I'm thinking about cuting mystical tutor because with witness I can use intuition to tutor 1 ofs, and i rarley use it other than FoW fodder- It could even become the 4th intuition or 3rd shackles. So give me your opinion on this list and what you would change about it.

Well, yes, the Mystical Tutor really doesn't serve any purpose except to double the number of Intuitions you have if you're running the Witness engine. Which, on its own merits, is very good. I would keep it for that reason, pitchability to Force of Will, and also in a pinch tutoring Echoes and Fact if you haven't dredged into them yet. Although that was its original role, I rarely see that occurring anymore.

rockSTAR
08-18-2006, 03:09 AM
Probably the same as we already did.

Also: @ Your decklist. You're -1 Delta/+1 Strand, +1 Factory/-1 High Market, +2 Fact or Fiction/-1 Mystical Tutor and -1 Shackles, +1 Regrowth. That's only a negligible 4/5 card difference from the list I already posted and have been working on. Did you read the thread? I don't mean to be condescending, but reducing your ability to fetch Bayou, turning off your sacrifice engine, adding expensive unnecessary cards to cut two of the best cards in the deck, and adding a one-of Regrowth that suffers from the same problem it seeks to fix does not significantly change the deck except for the worse. So you can Intuition for 2 ofs? Well, now you're incredibly more reliant on Intuition to find things that are only there to keep you alive until you can Intuition for the engine in the first place. How do you find Haunting Echoes without Mystical Tutor or Genesis -> Witness? I think you're just missing the fundamentals of the deck's construction. Read the whole thread over.

rofl...still rofl





ok. Fact or Fiction is probably the best blue card in the format behind good ol FOW...just to keep it in mind.
The manabase doesn't support witness. You won't be able to cast her in any game vs a deck with wastelands or even LD like ale.
High Market is crap... "sacrifice engine" lol. Thaht's silly. You don't wanna sacrifice the pets you get with shackles since its a thousend times better to trade 0-2.... And yes I did read the thread but sorry if I wasn't able to keep every decklist in my mind -.-

Moby Dick
08-18-2006, 05:16 AM
ok. Fact or Fiction is probably the best blue card in the format behind good ol FOW...just to keep it in mind. Besides there not being enough space in the deck to run more, 1 is enough, I even side it out against stuff like thresh because it'll never resolve.

The manabase doesn't support witness. You won't be able to cast her in any game vs a deck with wastelands or even LD like ale. I don't believe you. You're trying to tell me that the deck can't support 1 card with double green in its cost? No offense, but ROFLROFLROFL... still ROFL. Most of the time waste shouldn't be a problem because you run loam, and 10-11 green sources, and in my lastest build exploration, so ld is no problem.

High Market is crap... "sacrifice engine" lol. Thaht's silly. You don't wanna sacrifice the pets you get with shackles since its a thousend times better to trade 0-2.... Let me guess, you've tested market 0 times? Saving your few guys from getting stped, silly tricks with shackles, gaining a life every turn with genesis, recuring witness every turn with genesis, being able to get genesis into the yard. And let me tell you, they won't attack into shackles with one or two guys, the only reason I won my last game against ale was because I was able to clear his board with shackles and market, otherwise I would have lost to one of his three shade getting through.
And yes I did read the thread but sorry if I wasn't able to keep every decklist in my mind -.- There was a total of 2 or 3 relevant deck lists to look at.

god you're dumb

rockSTAR
08-18-2006, 05:24 AM
FOF: Running only 1 loam+some cycling lands...no other draw except for cantrip Brainstorm. Congratulation....

I don't know against what kind of ale player you play but usually they can screw you...And they play a card named 'Withered Wretch'. It is able to remove cards from the graveyard you know? Evil if he gets you're loam und witness will be dead. Btw today's ale palys 4 of them MD :)

High Market is still crap. You simply don't need it. If you want to get you're incations into the grave run forbid its ca. a million times better... because it's game vs. slow control with loam.

Oh yeah and sometimes I don't keep listings in mind because they are crap :)

Moby Dick
08-18-2006, 05:48 AM
And they play a card named 'Withered Wretch'. It is able to remove cards from the graveyard you know? Evil if he gets you're loam und witness will be dead. Btw today's ale palys 4 of them MD :)


You know, you're absolutley right! They do play wretch, the guy I was playing tryed to cast two of them, I had to counter both of them with the same FoW which I *gasp* recured with a *gasp* witness. :)


FOF: Running only 1 loam+some cycling lands...no other draw except for cantrip Brainstorm. Congratulation....

I'm pretty sure that 3x intuition 1x mystical tutor 1x loam 4x brainstorm 3x sandbars are enouth. You would know that if you didn't spend all your time testing the deck.

rockSTAR
08-18-2006, 07:07 AM
ah right let me get it:

You think Bardo and I are wrong when we play 2-3 Facts yeah?
I didn't test exploration so far but it seems promising.

edit: Btw how often do you think will the story with the fow - witness - fow happen... imho the weakest argument ever. So he didnt waste/vindicate/sinkhole a single land of you right? And the deck you played was ale? right?

Benie Bederios
08-18-2006, 07:38 AM
3x morphling

Roight?

Moby Dick
08-18-2006, 08:01 AM
So he didnt waste/vindicate/sinkhole a single land of you right? And the deck you played was ale? right?

He did kill a few lands, BUT I had loam/exploration, so it didn't bother me. And yes, you are correct, it was ale.


@Benie Bederios- What was the point of your one word post? Could you atleast explain what you think. (please don't)

rockSTAR
08-18-2006, 08:11 AM
So we might agree on this one:

Witness could be palyable with exploration but I think we should play more than one loam in an explo build otherwise you can't be explosive enough.

Moby Dick
08-18-2006, 02:13 PM
So we might agree on this one:

Witness could be palyable with exploration but I think we should play more than one loam in an explo build otherwise you can't be explosive enough.

Absolutly not, I've been playing witness without exploration with great results. One loam is plenty, exploration can be explosive without loam in hand (exploration>turn 2 intuition>turn 3 have 6 lands in play and a full hand), and running more than one LftL is a waste of slots, you'll make the deck inefficient, you already have 3 other exploration you don't want to draw so don't put 2-3 other cards that'll be dead in the deck.

Also, look at it this way, why would exploration make witness anymore playable? You won't be playing witness in the early game anyways, and exploration doesn't (last time I checked) increase your green sources, just lets you play them faster.

rockSTAR
08-19-2006, 09:24 PM
O.k. dude. I tried versions with exploration and witness as well as a version without exploration and WITH Witness.

I came to the conclusion, that ur opponents can only be dumbasses in disrupting you. I mean if you really need the witness you mostly won't have GG. You need 2 of 4 cards (tropical) and even with fetchlands it's freakin hard to stay on GG for a long time vs decks like landstill and ale.

My playtesting showed me that drift of phantasm is the much better card in that spot. It tutors for everything relevant in any matchup and is a 0/5 body vs aggro if needed.

And now please don't tell me that I don't test my deck. I played it on the German Nationals and in 2 weeks of intensive playtesting on mws via custom games.

peace

Ebinsugewa
08-20-2006, 12:18 AM
You need 2 of 4 cards (tropical) and even with fetchlands it's freakin hard to stay on GG for a long time vs decks like landstill and ale.

My playtesting showed me that drift of phantasm is the much better card in that spot. It tutors for everything relevant in any matchup and is a 0/5 body vs aggro if needed.

Two decks I haven't played against in over six months, because they don't put up enough of a showing anymore. That probably will change with Landstill's placing at GenCon, however. And if you want to play a one-of Drift of Phantasms to spend three mana (two of which is colored as well) during your mainphase not affecting the board whatsoever, be my guest. I'll keep playing a one-mana Instant speed tutor for everything Instant or Sorcery that I'd ever want. And if you're tutoring for a Tog, you're wasting tempo not advancing the win conditions of a) a bigger graveyard, b) bigger hand size, and c) a minimal to empty board on the opponent's end.

Bane of the Living
08-20-2006, 05:04 PM
Alright guys, fellow tog players..

Theres no reason to conflict over a good 5 card difference or so. Alot of one ofs in this deck keep it fun and exciting to play because tog is thankfully one of the most customizable archetypes.

There are a few things Ive noticed going on here.

1) Listen to what the Germans say. Theyre usually right, but keep in mind. Germany has a completely different meta game than Worcester Massachusetts.

2) Moby Dick/Ebinsugea
I can tell you guys are honing in one solid decklists. Im glad your finding Exploration to be the bomb it is. Its irriplaceable. Im trying to decide between 3 or 4 copies. 3 Might be good with Intuition as a 4 of, but drawing multiples makes the deck insane. Ive found 3 LftL to be a good number because maximizing the amount of cards Dredged off a Brainstorm makes the deck lethal out of no where. Its also nice to not waste Intuition targets on Loam when it could be your High Market, Lonely Sandbar, Cephalid Coloseium, Wonder, Genesis, ect. Im a big fan of the single Witness in the main. Shes randomly phenominal and if you get your GG in the mid-late game the card advantage gained through her and Genesis usually wins the game.

I want to try Solitary Confinement as a small white splash. Ill let you guys know how it goes.

Ebinsugewa
08-20-2006, 05:55 PM
What would you guys play against a random meta? I think that Dredgeatog is nice at answering random stuff with Deed, but Burning Tog is more versatile pre-board, because duh, it's got access to its sideboard all three games. That and Deed doesn't always rock against some archetypes. This is me brainstorming about what to play in The Mana Leak.

EDIT: @Nate: Post your new Exploration list with the three Lifes. Brainstorm dredging 9 sounds retarded. I want to try that out.

rockSTAR
08-21-2006, 03:19 AM
That's what I mentioned formerely. Exploration can only be good in a build playing 3-4 loam.

Imho U/g/b Tog can definitely compete in a random metagame, especially in a random aggro-meta. In my testing I felt like R/g beats was my best matchup ever.

I also thought about Force Spike. Often oppo starts land go on the draw and you are on one land while he lays down the sinkhole/hymn/survival etc.
What do you think about that?

Ebinsugewa
08-21-2006, 04:27 AM
I also thought about Force Spike. Often oppo starts land go on the draw and you are on one land while he lays down the sinkhole/hymn/survival etc.

This is something up for debate in Extended, mainly, where the choice is between Force Spike and Spell Snare. If I were to run a supplemental counter, it would be Rune Snag as an experiment, because that doesn't suck in the yard. Maybe Spell Snare, because a lot of key cards in Legacy tend to cost two. Piledriver, Survival, Counterspell, etc. I'm debating dropping the control altogether and going to the straight up disruption plan. The eight counters and Brainstorms are okay, but they don't seem to be enough control against Threshold and Solidarity because I don't draw them frequently enough. And the other stuff is too hard to cut to fit in more counters.

rockSTAR
08-21-2006, 11:07 AM
This might be a decklist for an exploration "turbotog":

4 Psychatog
1 Genesis
1 Wonder
3 Exploration
3 Life from the Loam
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
3 Fact or Fiction
3 Intuition
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Vedalken Shackles

4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Wasteland
1 Mishra's Factory(Cabal Pit but; Factory kills Mongoose)
1 Bayou
4 Island
3 Lonely Sandbar

Witout an early lome exploration is simply weak in this deck that runs 24 lands (3 of which are taplands).
This is definetly are fast, more combo oriantated listing. It doesn't have duress vs the combo and control mu but might simply be faster than green based aggro like r/g beats and survival. I gonna test this a bit but I could imagine to feel quite naked without my duress, mongoose and darkblasts.

MattH
08-21-2006, 11:16 PM
This might be a decklist for an exploration "turbotog":

4 Psychatog
1 Genesis
1 Wonder
3 Exploration
3 Life from the Loam
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
3 Fact or Fiction
3 Intuition
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Vedalken Shackles

4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Wasteland
1 Mishra's Factory(Cabal Pit but; Factory kills Mongoose)
1 Bayou
4 Island
3 Lonely Sandbar

Witout an early lome exploration is simply weak in this deck that runs 24 lands (3 of which are taplands).
This is definetly are fast, more combo oriantated listing. It doesn't have duress vs the combo and control mu but might simply be faster than green based aggro like r/g beats and survival. I gonna test this a bit but I could imagine to feel quite naked without my duress, mongoose and darkblasts.

In that list I would certainly drop Deeds for Vinelasher Kudzus and the Bayou for a basic Swamp. Probably wouldn't hurt to drop the FoFs for something faster either (4th Exploration, something else - Mongeese? Daze?).

Moby Dick
08-22-2006, 01:52 AM
Hey Nate, I'm German :P


I think, if going the combo route, you should tryout stinkweed. He's a recurring chumper that makes you win faster, it shuts down thresh, because they won't win the race unless they resolve 2 critters a turn, and counter every time you play imp. He also beats for 1 :/

rockSTAR
08-22-2006, 03:02 AM
Hey Nate, I'm German :P


I think, if going the combo route, you should tryout stinkweed. He's a recurring chumper that makes you win faster, it shuts down thresh, because they won't win the race unless they resolve 2 critters a turn, and counter every time you play imp. He also beats for 1 :/

Nope. This lil guy will definetly be hit by a sword or a bolt or anything before they swing for lethal damage. He isn't hat great...

Moby Dick
08-22-2006, 03:35 AM
Nope. This lil guy will definetly be hit by a sword or a bolt or anything before they swing for lethal damage. He isn't hat great...

He wasn't meant as a win condition, just that sometimes 2 or 3 extra points is all the difference, and if you're playing tog, then WHY THE FUCK WOULD THE POINT STP AT AN IMP? And if he's bolted, then isn't that what dredge is for? ... He's not even meant to play, you just CAN play him IF you want the extra revomal.

But other than that, I'm in the process of testing the 3x loam 3x exploration build you posted, and so far its impresive, win fast, but I'm missing the not-so-random wins I got with echoes and the like, and I'm having a hard time finding the optimal SB because I lose the ability to play 1 and 2 of's because without tutor and witness, I can't get them reliably. I would also like to add geese, but I can't find the room, because, sadly, this deck can't stop every spell they play so you kinda need deed- there's no way this deck can win turn 4 or 5 consistently because you'll need some turns to set up with the intuitioning and the genesising and whatnot.

rockSTAR
08-22-2006, 04:11 AM
I know that they aren't supposed to win you the game BUT they WILL definetly sword it since it will otherwise trade 1-1 every time! I tested it and came to the conclusion, that mongoose is the simply better blocker.

Imho there are two ways to successfully build U/g/b Tog: Exploration-Tog(more combolike) and The Version with Mongeese(more controllike anti aggro)

Here is my Mongooseversion:

// Lands(24)
5 Island
1 Wasteland
3 Lonely Sandbar
2 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp

// Creatures(8)
1 Genesis
3 Psychatog
1 Wonder
3 Nimble Mongoose

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Fact or Fiction
3 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Darkblast
3 Vedalken Shackles
2 Duress

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Hydroblast
SB: 2 Naturalize
SB: 1 Mystical Tutor
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 1 Constant Mists
SB: 1 Haunting Echoes

2 Darkblasts because it's easier to get threshold with em and a Mongoose in play. Imho Darkblast plus a thresholded Mongoose>every relevant creature in the format.

Benie Bederios
08-22-2006, 05:23 AM
I have to agree with my neigbour Moby Dick( I'm dutch( isn't easier to continue this discussion in german)) Stinkweed Imp is totally nuts.

Every Sword that hits a Imp, can't hit a Tog. And Tog blocks and kills ***** creatures( except Enforcer) easy. And you still play counters. you can even play Diabolic edict in response to sac your own Imp. This card is totally busted, and far better then any other Dredge Creature, because you will hardcast it, so it's never dead.

If you have a Brainstorm in hand, and a Tog in play and some mana, you can easily make a lethal Tog, just to Intuition for 2 Imps( I only play 2) and another Dredger( Loam) EOT. Next turn Dredge Imp( +3/+3), Discard Imp( +4/+4) play Brainstorm and Dredge 3 cards and discard last card in hand( +12/+12). And that with 2 cards, and if you hadn't had other cards in hand or yard, and didn't dredged a DA.

Stinkweed Imp doesn't stall an opponent. It also makes Tog huge. And I think it is the power of Tog is that he can win the game early( turn 5/6 that is) out of nowhere. This way Tog Just nukes ********, has a decent game against Goblins, and even capable of killing Solidarity.

Moby Dick
08-22-2006, 05:35 AM
I have to agree with my neigbour Moby Dick( I'm dutch( isn't easier to continue this discussion in german)) Stinkweed Imp is totally nuts.

Every Sword that hits a Imp, can't hit a Tog. And Tog blocks and kills ***** creatures( except Enforcer) easy. And you still play counters. you can even play Diabolic edict in response to sac your own Imp. This card is totally busted, and far better then any other Dredge Creature, because you will hardcast it, so it's never dead.

If you have a Brainstorm in hand, and a Tog in play and some mana, you can easily make a lethal Tog, just to Intuition for 2 Imps( I only play 2) and another Dredger( Loam) EOT. Next turn Dredge Imp( +3/+3), Discard Imp( +4/+4) play Brainstorm and Dredge 3 cards and discard last card in hand( +12/+12). And that with 2 cards, and if you hadn't had other cards in hand or yard, and didn't dredged a DA.

Stinkweed Imp doesn't stall an opponent. It also makes Tog huge. And I think it is the power of Tog is that he can win the game early( turn 5/6 that is) out of nowhere. This way Tog Just nukes ********, has a decent game against Goblins, and even capable of killing Solidarity.


I'm don't actualy live in Germany, and I don't speak much, my mother's from Germany, making me German, so I'm usualy right :P

I only testing with one imp, and thats all I need from the looks of it.

Ok, so tog wrecks other control decks, but dies to aggro. How do we wreck aggro, while leaving the majority intact, and still be able to wreck other control decks?

rockSTAR
08-22-2006, 05:40 AM
[...] and The Version with Mongeese(more controllike anti aggro)

Here is my Mongooseversion:

// Lands(24)
5 Island
1 Wasteland
3 Lonely Sandbar
2 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp

// Creatures(8)
1 Genesis
3 Psychatog
1 Wonder
3 Nimble Mongoose

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Fact or Fiction
3 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Darkblast
3 Vedalken Shackles
2 Duress

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Hydroblast
SB: 2 Naturalize
SB: 1 Mystical Tutor
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 1 Constant Mists
SB: 1 Haunting Echoes

2 Darkblasts because it's easier to get threshold with em and a Mongoose in play. Imho Darkblast plus a thresholded Mongoose>every relevant creature in the format.

reading>u? :P

Moby Dick
08-22-2006, 05:49 AM
reading>u? :P

having a point > you?


I read the list, tested a few games against teh aggro (gobbos,zompy) and gobbos > your list, I only felt safe after getting 2 geese down, and then its still not a garanteed victory, they get more piledrivers then its game over. What I'm looking into is getting pinpoint removal while keeping the loam/exploration combo intact along with the counter package. Shackles does very little against the faster aggro decks, and only shines against stuff like survival and angel stompy, now that those types of decks are dieing, I'm considering cutting it, or atleast moving them to the board in favor of faster removal.

How is the vote on cunning wish, I know its clunky and useles... I'll stop right there, for a moment I thought wish could be playable :P

rockSTAR
08-22-2006, 06:03 AM
O.K: I gonna stop arguing about tog in this thread since you seem to know everything better than I do. Good luck.

Moby Dick
08-22-2006, 06:16 AM
O.K: I gonna stop arguing about tog in this thread since you seem to know everything better than I do. Good luck.

I'm not trying to act that way, I'm just taking alot of your ideas into consideration, testing them, and saying what I think about them, and saying how I think they need to be improved. Now instead of just posting deck lists and claiming them to be good against x, you could explain alittle bit (or alot) about how you came to your conclusion, that's how these sort of discussions progress. :wink:

Benie Bederios
08-22-2006, 07:23 AM
That's sounds kinda childish( not flaming).
But I'm afraid he's got a point about some things.

Mongoose isn't a anti aggro tech at all. I mean come one a 3/3. Since when is goblins or Affinity afraid of that. It blocks a T1 lackey, but thats about it.

I've tested your list, and the list in the openingpost( the controlish one) and that one is better. That deck is already capable of killing aggro without any problem. A quick darkblast, can hold off creatures long enough for Deed to clear the table. After that you just use Shackles as creaturecontrol, forcing your opponent to play 3 creatures, before he can deal damage.
If you use Imp instead of the Mongoose, you have a creature what comes back after a Deed, kills any creature even something like Exalted Angel or Sundering Titan. And helps filling up your yard.

But still I wouldn't use neither of them in a control version, because it has already enough spells it wants to cast on T3 and Mongoose doesn't help alot.

But I like the other list in the openingpost more, because it sheer power and the broken kills it has. I removed the wishes because most of the time it was overkill, trampling with a 50/26 Tog. And I never wished for something else.

Bane of the Living
08-22-2006, 11:55 AM
Stinkweed is the man imo.

Heres my last version before I dropped tog to start winning with Seismic Assault.. I infused atwa2000's Regrowth tech into my exploration build. Its killer.

mana 28
3 Mox Diamond
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Island
2 Cephalid Colosieum
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Lonely Sandbar
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Volraths Stronghold

creatures 7
4 Psychatog
1 Stinkweed Imp
1 Meloku, the Broken Mirror
1 Wonder

spells 25
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Intuition
3 Life from the Loam
2 Regrowth
3 Exploration
4 Brainstorm

Its missing alot of little one of trick cards, and the spot removal is low as fuck, but this build is ridiculously consistant. It has a good game against aggro and aggro control but loses to straight up control strategy. Its not too great agaisnt combo since it lacks good combo disruption besides FoW. But no Cunning Wish means you have a sideboard that isnt butchered. You can access E Plague, Duress, and others in there. This deck can race combo which is worth noting.

Moby Dick
08-24-2006, 12:43 AM
I've spent all week trying out the diff tog builds out there, and I've actualy had the most success with my version of hulk smash, and you all thought it was dead. what I like about it, is that yard hate doesn't hurt it like it hurts loamatog. and regrowing ak's is nut, absolutly NUTS. but not as nuts as a deck that can either race goblins, or play the control game and out draw every deck in the format.

// Lands
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [B] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
5 [UG] Island
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [UG] Swamp
2 [B] Volcanic Island

// Creatures
3 [OD] Psychatog

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [US] Duress
2 [B] Regrowth
3 [TE] Intuition
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [NE] Accumulated Knowledge
4 [MM] Counterspell
4 [AP] Fire/Ice

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [TE] Capsize
SB: 1 [SC] Stifle
SB: 1 [ON] Naturalize
SB: 1 [TE] Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 [B] Berserk
SB: 1 [EX] Reclaim
SB: 3 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild

Benie Bederios
08-24-2006, 03:54 AM
Well this deck looks kinda worse than Dredge-a-tog to me. The reason why Hulk-Smash never was big in Legacy( after the separation of B&R list, before that I played Vintage) was the absence of some cards, especially Mana Drain. That card makes the deck rock and lightning fast. But without it, sorry I have to say it, it's weak. Another trick of hulksmash were the tutors. Some builds played 3 to 4 Merchant Scrolls just to fill the Graveyard and fetch the bombs: counters and Recall.

Intuition is rather weak in this deck. As it only fetches Accumulated Knowledge, and that is way to slow in Legacy( read without Mana Drain), being able to draw 3 cards on turn 4. Sure it can fetch FoW or Deed, but that is only used, if you have no other choice. You can't even Intuition for a Tog, when the first one died.

Your manabase looks good though, 4 colors and still some basiclands.

Dredge-a-tog can fill the graveyard much faster, thus making a lethal Tog faster and recovering from a Crypt easier.

Shriekmaw
08-24-2006, 01:44 PM
I would to just point out a few things in reference to Dredge-A-Tog.

I believe the the engine of the deck is a lot more powerful, but I would rather play a version of Tog that is more control oriented, since that was the initial idea behind the deck.

Dredge-a-tog gives up some control elements in order to play Life of the Loam for its draw engine. I'm not a fan of adding green for the deck just to play this engine since it makes your mana base a lot weaker. I know most of you forget about wasteland these days since a lot of decks don't play with them anymore, but I'm a fan of stable mana bases in control decks.

Adding utility to the deck is very important, and I feel like burning wish is the best option in terms of having a versatile deck for various metagames. Adding red for control cards like FTK and Fire Imp to the deck.

Having Burning Wish to find answers is a more acceptable approach to me than running Deed in the build if you run Dredge-A-Tog since thats the only massive removal I can think of main deck.

Final Conclusion

Burning Tog > Dredge-A-Tog

Nightmare
08-24-2006, 01:56 PM
I'm not a fan of adding green for the deck just to play this engine since it makes your mana base a lot weaker. I know most of you forget about wasteland these days since a lot of decks don't play with them anymore, but I'm a fan of stable mana bases in control decks.


... I feel like burning wish is the best option in terms of having a versatile deck for various metagames. Adding red for control cards like FTK and Fire Imp to the deck. ...

Nick, I'm confused. These two statements directly oppose each other. In one, you say adding green for LFtL (which helps protect your manabase) is too disruptive to the manabase, and makes it unstable. In the next, you advocate adding Red, which arguably makes the manabase even less stable, since you lose the recursion of land via LFtL. Which is it?

Shriekmaw
08-24-2006, 02:02 PM
Nick, I'm confused. These two statements directly oppose each other. In one, you say adding green for LFtL (which helps protect your manabase) is too disruptive to the manabase, and makes it unstable. In the next, you advocate adding Red, which arguably makes the manabase even less stable, since you lose the recursion of land via LFtL. Which is it?

Okay, maybe I didn't make myself as clear as I should of.

In various versions of the deck you are playing around the same number of non-basics lands, but with the traditional build you play more counter magic which helps protecting your permaments on the board. Thats what I meant, your mana base is pretty close to the same in the terms of non-basic lands you play in the deck.

Benie Bederios
08-24-2006, 02:36 PM
I would still advocate of running Green and LftL. If you look at the Dredge-a-tog deck in the opening post( my deck is quite similar, so posting would be spam) it is very versatile.

Intuition is the burning Wish of Dredge-a-tog. For every tier 1 deck it can find an answer. With the power of Life from the Loam, and other dredge cards they are recursable, so they don't have to be bombs, as the cards in Burning Tog. Those cards not only help you control the game, but also fill your graveyard very fast, so they help speeding up your kill. This way it can win out of nowhere very, and can easily come back after a Tormod's Crypt.

Burning Tog is far slower. It's just 3 color control, that chose Tog as it's kill. But the deck isn't really focused on filling it's graveyard, but just to create a lock. This deck can't be the beatdown, putting no presure on the opponent. In the old days this was effective. The creatures where weaker and combo lost to 1 counterspell. But with Goblins focused to beat control and solidarity beating control easily, you will have 2 though matchups in the top tier. The bombs Burning Tog fetches out of the SB, must win the game right a way, because they are not recursable( only with recoup, but then you need Burning Wish and a lot of mana), so an opponent might just get back in the game, in the turns you try to fill you yard, to able to kill the opponent.

In short Dredge-a-tog is more dynamic and more streamlined than Burning Tog, and because of that it's the better choice.

Shriekmaw
08-24-2006, 02:48 PM
You don't have to go through your entire decklist for me, but I would like to know what answers do you main deck that intuition would help to find?

I do agree the Life of the Loam engine is very good in psychatog. Maybe just post your main deck cards excluding land because I'm interested in seeing the answers that you have and general build of the deck you run.

Then I can add a little more comment and maybe help improve your deck a bit.

I'm just trying to help make decklists optimal.

rockSTAR
08-25-2006, 04:52 AM
So guys. With the release of coldsnap an interesting new card entered the game:

Counterbalance:
UU (2), Enchantment
Whenever an opponent plays a spell, you may reveal the top card of your library. If you do, counter that spell if it has the same converted mana cost as the revealed card.

Illus. John Zeleznik

Together with some library manipulation this card is THE gamebreaker for control. With this in play and some fetchlands/dredge/brainstorm/sensei's divining top you are able to counter nearly every spell you're opponent wants to cast.

Let's have some more arguments about Counterbalance. The most common hate for tog is obv. Swords and Tormod's crypt. Bounterbalance handles BOTH cards quite easy. Tormods crypt is countered when revealing a land and with a senseis divining top in play every CC1 spell is countered.

Here the decklist:

.counterbalance.tog.
by Tim Brack

4 Psychatog
1 Berserk
____
5
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Regrowth
3 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Life from the Loam
3 Sensei's Divining Top
____
15

4 Counterbalance
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
____
12

2 Pernicious Deed
1 Vedalken Shackles
____
3

3 Mox Diamond
3 Lonely Sandbar
1 Wasteland
5 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
____
26

What do you guys think? In some testinggames counterbalance on turn one was impressive.

Benie Bederios
08-25-2006, 05:56 AM
You don't have to go through your entire decklist for me, but I would like to know what answers do you main deck that intuition would help to find?

I do agree the Life of the Loam engine is very good in psychatog. Maybe just post your main deck cards excluding land because I'm interested in seeing the answers that you have and general build of the deck you run.

Then I can add a little more comment and maybe help improve your deck a bit.

I'm just trying to help make decklists optimal.

Allright,

Against Goblins:
Life From the Loam/ Darkblast/ Stinkweed Imp.
This way I have a chumpblocker, an answer against Wasteland and I can shoot weenies. Normally I will dredge a cycle land out of them and can start drawing cards and shooting down x/2's with Darkblast.

Against *****:
Wasteland/ Life from the Loam/ Stinkweed Imp.
Recursive Wasteland to keep them of color. Stinkweed Imp will trade with there creatures. This card is incredible against ********. They can't afford atttacking in the Imp, because they don't have enough creatures.

Against Solidarity:
Stinkweed Imp/ Stinkweed Imp/ Life from the Loam.
The problem of Solidarity is, that if you wait (to) long, you will loose. Solidarity simply destroys pure control. I just try to get a Tog in to play on turn 4 and go for the kill turn 5 or 6. And hoping it is fast enough.

This is just some choices you can make. If your out of danger, you can Intuition for 2 Cycle lands and Loam, and just get your drawengine online. If you already have one of the cards in hand, you always can search for Deep Analysis( to much people are missing this card in the deck), or add a cycle land, so you can start drawing cards.

Next to that you've got the normal choices:

If you've got Tog in play. A Intuition for Stinkweed Imp/ Stinkweed Imp/ Deep Analysis can normally win the game, able to give your Tog +13/+13 for 2 mana. And you will dredge 15 cards, so the chance is high you will put a second Deep Analysis in the GY, and make your Tog bigger( if life allows it.) You just can add a Wonder if you need flying, or Genesis if you fear removal( except Plow.)

Triple FoW if you really need it. Sometimes players tap out to play a Withered Wretch, than you can tutor for triple Darkblast EOT. Dredge a darkblast and kill it. Triple Darkblast is good anyway, being able to kill most Bw/ Confidant creatures.

Always know what you need to win the game. These are just a fraction of combinations you can choose. And calculate often how much damage you can deal with your Tog. The creator made that mistake also, not daring to use Deep Analysis, because he was low on life. But if he did he had a Lethal flying Tog.

I only Intuitioned for AK once. I played against Illusion Donate, and he already had 4 AK's in the yard. Wich made my AK a Drawseven wich won the game. But other than that, I just found it to slow. With all the dredging around, you will get 3 AK's in the yard.

@ rockSTAR
I don't really like the idea of combining Counterbalance with Tog. To get the manacurve good is very problomatic. You have far to much 3cc cards and to few 1cc. I also think your deck is trying to do to much. Deed blowing up your own Balance/ Shackles. Deed and Shackles alone is a nice combination, because, normally you blow up Deed first and than play Shackles. But you want to play Counterbalance as fast as possible. Also the low cc is of Counterbalance is a problem.
I should try to add some more 1cc cards. like darkblast instead of some 3 CC spells. And just counting on a single berserk to beat chumpblockers is dangerous too. Maybe cut a Tog for Wonder.
But why is this deck better than other Tog decks, or UW Counterbalance. Those decks looks more focused than this one.

rockSTAR
08-25-2006, 07:14 AM
You have to keep in mind that the deck is played totally different when playing with counterbalance. You won't have to deal with that many threads as you have to when you don't play it.
Berserk isn't random since you can intuition for 2 regrowth and berserk to go lethal!

Bane of the Living
08-25-2006, 05:32 PM
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [TE] Capsize
SB: 1 [SC] Stifle
SB: 1 [ON] Naturalize
SB: 1 [TE] Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 [B] Berserk
SB: 1 [EX] Reclaim
SB: 3 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild

Where is Fling? Its infinitly better than Berserk if your playing red.

Benie Bederios
08-25-2006, 07:04 PM
You have to keep in mind that the deck is played totally different when playing with counterbalance. You won't have to deal with that many threads as you have to when you don't play it.
Berserk isn't random since you can intuition for 2 regrowth and berserk to go lethal!

I didn't say Berserk was random, I meant it was risky. If you play one Regrowth earlier, you can't intuiton for Berserk anymore. Or what if Berserk gets countered or discarded. I know it might be a small problem, but there isn't much harm in adding a Wonder for a Tog. You only need 1 Tog in to play to win, and most of the time only for 1 turn.

I know this deck plays alot different than dredge-a-tog. But as I said before, the goods cards you took from Tog all have a cc of 3( Deed/ Shackles/ Tog.) If you look at other decks they don't play that much 3cc cards. Goblins will just sneak those cards in, ***** totally lacks 3cc cards. In solidarity it hits quite alot but still not enough to stop them. I know you can manipulate your library, but it happens less than you think, and you must have the luck the cc you need is in the top 3cards.
Counterbalance decks doesn't really need a win like Tog. And Tog doesn't really wants Counterbalance.

@ bane_of_the_living
Why is Fling better than Berserk, they are both different and it's depending on the situation, wich one is better. Fling can hit if you can't attack with tog. But if the opponent is on 12 and has a 0/1 Blocker and your tog can grow to 7/8 Fling doesn't kill that turn, where Berserk does.
I think the mainreason that he choose Berserk is, that he plays more green, so it is easier to cast.

Ebinsugewa
09-03-2006, 12:56 AM
BUMP. I will be playing a variant of Tog today in Connecticut, and will hopefully take good enough notes that I can extrapolate a report from them. Good luck to all you other guys going!

mercc
09-08-2006, 11:47 AM
BUMP. I will be playing a variant of Tog today in Connecticut, and will hopefully take good enough notes that I can extrapolate a report from them. Good luck to all you other guys going!

How about that report? :)

Ebinsugewa
09-10-2006, 06:11 PM
How about that report? :)

Well, the long and short of it was that I overslept by a long shot and just didn't do well. I started 2-0, but ran into some bad luck and dropped. In retrospect, I should have stayed in an top 32'd at least, but I was hungry and tired.

Round one - Stolze's younger brother - Nausea
Game one - I keep a good hand, with a Logic and a Counterspell, Familiar, FTK and some stuff. He lays an Egg and a Chromatic Sphere, I figure he's playing a variant of Sunrise, so I tap out turn two for Nightscape and figure I can ride my countermagic to some beats. He goes perfect turn three combo on me. That was demoralizing. Especially since I played Nausea for such a long time.
Game two - He minicomboes for like 14-16 but hurts himself so much with Ancient Tomb that my Nightscapes + Fire Imp take it down.
Game three - Very similarly, except this time he helps by giving me free tokens from Forbidden Orchard, I counter his draw when his hand gets low, and ride home.

1-0 (2-1)

Round two - To Dave Feinstein! R/G Beats
Game one - He starts off with Taiga -> Kird Ape. I get a little worried. Turn two is a Mogg Fanatic and then a Lavamancer. Okay, trouble. He stalls on two land however, and my big removal men start going to work. I eventually stick a Familiar, which regenerates through his removal. He eventually draws a Wasteland and tries to keep me off a color, but I'm set, as all I need is 1B to regenerate. He starts the burn plan, and it ends up being me 3, him 1. He Chain Lightnings me and I counter it. A good game indeed.

- deck check -
A great opportunity for me to talk with a really nice Magic player, especially one from my area. He says he thinks Tog is very powerful, but we both agree that Burning Tog's worst matchup involves random aggro or recurring creatures. Where I don't have access to Deed, I need to Wish for Massacre or hopefully get luck with my removal guys. I get warned for my beat to shit Volcanic and game two starts.

Game two - Same deal, a Kird Ape on turn one. Fanatic turn two, but a missed land drop. I was never in any danger this game as he succumbs to some hellacious mana. Sorry Dave, nice meeting you.

2-0 (4-1)

Round three - Modified Faerie Stompy
I'm feeling pretty confident going into this one.

Game one - He starts with an Ancient Tomb. I figure it's a Stompy variety, but then he lays an Island and I'm okay with the matchup. I eventually start trading one-for-one but he gets through a Sword of Fire and Ice and I'm in a world of hurt. An unmorphed random flier from Onslaught picks it up and takes it down. I missed Wonder. A lot :)
Game two - Same start, except this time he gets a third turn Weatherseed Faeries. Oh shit. Pro-red gives me ridiculous problems. My draw was awful, the grip at the time being four lands, and I drew three more before I died.

2-1 (4-3)

Round four - Red Thresh
Sweet, another really good matchup. The red version isn't as positive, because their burn turns into reach.

Game one - This game lasts three turns. A Serum Visions by him turned into a game loss when he draws a extra card from the Scry 2 and I catch him.
Game two - I think I really have a chance to do well at a major tournament. Finally, I'm piloting a deck I know very well and I've been lucky with my matchups and when I needed a little help, it was usually there. Game two is not so positive, when even though I get an FTK to stick, he gets Bolted out of the building. A Nightscape takes one for the team, but Perish takes out his dudes. I Crypt him after his guys hit the yard. He rebuilds really quickly, however, with a Portent and a Serum Visions and lays a Goose. He eventually finds a Dragon, and once again, Psychatog does not fly. Frowny face.
Game three - I still feel confident, given that I had 45 minutes to win one of two games. However, I lost to a series of crazy rips. His board is Threshed Goose and Dragon, and mine is lethal Tog (which I just neutered his hand winning the counterwar over) and a Nightscape. He swings into my Familiar with just the Goose (?) I regen, and Ice his guy at end of turn. Which gets Red Blasted, leaving him at 0 cards in hand. Lame. I draw and pass back. He rips Needle and windmills it. I proceed to lose to Firebreathing with Wings.

A very frustrating match to say the least. I was really upset with myself for not capitalizing on the game loss, but I accept that luck was a factor and convince myself to win out.

2-2 (5-5)

Round five - Matt Abold - EPIC Insect Advantage (Truffle Shuffle)
I look over at pairs and find myself matched against Truffle. I hang my head and play poorly, resigned to losing a nigh unwinnable matchup. Recurring guys trump my removal and Echoes owns my library. If he plays smart and uses Witnesses for discard, and gets all the mileage out of his Therapies, I have a snowball's chance in hell. Game one I get Echoes'ed out, game two is a creature beating.

2-3 (5-7) drop. A frustrating day that started off so well. Sometimes you're on the unlucky end of the stick. I still think that my choice to play Burning Tog was a good one. It's unexpected and has few bad matchups. Burning Wish is so versatile, and the synergy of the deck is impressive. I would flip a coin next time between Dredge and Burning Tog, they have their merits respectively.

A question to pose - is countermagic necessary in Legacy Tog? Playing 8 counterspells always seemed light in Dredge, and 10 in Burning Tog seems closer to correct, but still a bit low. Sadly there does not seem like enough room for the counter suite, because we are playing three colors. Is two-color Tog even close to viable? Would you play Duress and Hymn or something of the sort instead?

Ebinsugewa
09-12-2006, 08:33 PM
A question to pose - is countermagic necessary in Legacy Tog? Playing 8 counterspells always seemed light in Dredge, and 10 in Burning Tog seems closer to correct, but still a bit low. Sadly there does not seem like enough room for the counter suite, because we are playing three colors. Is two-color Tog even close to viable? Would you play Duress and Hymn or something of the sort instead?

Hopefully I have found the answer. Cabal Therapy is ridiculous in this deck, giving me an extra way to get a Genesis into the yard, and a way to repeatedly get my Witnesses to fetch 't3h g00d stuff' while raping my opponent's hand. New list:

// Lands
3 Lonely Sandbar
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea (Still unsure about the manabase, so far it has been
1 Bayou fine, any suggestions?)
2 Island
1 Wasteland
2 Swamp
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest

// Creatures
4 Psychatog
3 Nimble Mongoose
1 Wonder (Adding extra dudes to make the matchups
1 Genesis with Thresh and Goblins better, plus making
1 Eternal Witness more targets for Therapy is good)
1 Meloku the Clouded Mirror

// Spells
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Mystical Tutor (Upping the Tutor gives me 5 Intuitions, as well as fetch-
1 Fact or Fiction ing the madness that is Echoes)
1 Haunting Echoes
1 Life from the Loam
1 Darkblast
3 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy

I'm thinking of cutting the toolbox approach, though recurring FoF is hot, I think I'd rather have Deep Analysis, so that it's at least useful when I Dredge it. Darkblast and FoF could probably go, though Darkblast helped make Goblins a better matchup, so does 4 Deed and 5 Intuition with the power to recur them. I feel this build plays better without the engine, and I'm not sure how I feel about that. Mongeese might even go if we can find a better creature to put in their place, they don't grow as quickly anymore now that I don't immediately go for Loam. Any thoughts?

MattH
09-13-2006, 12:43 AM
His board is Threshed Goose and Dragon, and mine is lethal Tog (which I just neutered his hand winning the counterwar over) and a Nightscape. He swings into my Familiar with just the Goose (?) I regen, and Ice his guy at end of turn. Which gets Red Blasted, leaving him at 0 cards in hand. Lame. I draw and pass back. He rips Needle and windmills it. I proceed to lose to Firebreathing with Wings.
You should have attacked. With Tog at lethal, he would have been forced to block (even if you were 1-2 pumps shy because you didn't cantrip off of Ice, for all he knows you drew another Fire or other burn and would have been taking a huge risk by not blocking), and you could pump to kill the Dragon. Then it would have been Needle'd Tog and Nightscape vs. 3/3 Mongoose, a very stable board position for you (and way better than a loss).

Kyachi
09-13-2006, 01:00 AM
Because of the slowness of burning 'tog, I started siding a single copy of tendrils of agony, and invoke the firemind, depending on how many Nightscapes stick, burning wish for burning wish (and so forth) ending with a tendrils for like 10 isn't unheard of, not is drawing like 8 off of an invoke for lethal tog.

I realize that I lose a lot of variety to my SB by adding these, but hitting with a nonlethal tog and then tendrilsing has won a match or two.

Ebinsugewa
09-13-2006, 08:00 PM
You should have attacked. With Tog at lethal, he would have been forced to block (even if you were 1-2 pumps shy because you didn't cantrip off of Ice, for all he knows you drew another Fire or other burn and would have been taking a huge risk by not blocking), and you could pump to kill the Dragon. Then it would have been Needle'd Tog and Nightscape vs. 3/3 Mongoose, a very stable board position for you (and way better than a loss).

You're probably right, except I had nothing going for me at all and didn't want to waste yard. But that was the correct decision with hindsight being what it is.

Any comments on the new build?

Bane of the Living
09-13-2006, 08:51 PM
No force of will? HUH!? Well Ive played Exploration Tog before with Daze. Its nice since you dont need the blue card # support and its still the always feared force spike that makes it scary. I dont like therapies in your build even if you do have mongoose to flash it back. Would you really want to lose him for therapy?

scrumdogg
09-13-2006, 09:04 PM
No force of will? HUH!? Well Ive played Exploration Tog before with Daze. Its nice since you dont need the blue card # support and its still the always feared force spike that makes it scary. I dont like therapies in your build even if you do have mongoose to flash it back. Would you really want to lose him for therapy?

Against combo, absolutely. And that is one of the reasons for an experiment like this, with combo coming out of the woodwork, maybe it won't work but it doesn't hurt to try. Tog is too powerful not to see play & powerful enough to accommodate a number of different strategies. Just because a build is non-traditional, don't automatically dismiss it.

SillyMetalGAT
09-13-2006, 09:10 PM
Hes not dismissing it, hes just skeptical like I am. Tog and counter go together like PB&J. Ive just always known the bread and butter of Tog to be counter.

Bane of the Living
09-13-2006, 09:15 PM
If you want to play a tog deck without counter magic you should be playing Friggorid. Im not being an asshole Im just gonna go as far as to say your switching strategy. You might as well make the full loop into combo aggro. Fuck Mongoose. If you want cheap beaters for alternate win conditions, go with Ashen Ghoul and Ichorid.

Togit460
09-13-2006, 09:28 PM
Hes not dismissing it, hes just skeptical like I am. Tog and counter go together like PB&J. Ive just always known the bread and butter of Tog to be counter.

Q4T

I think that remaking old-school tog into this format is viable, it just makes people nervous because old-school tog is all about play-skill. People today seem to want raw-power without having to know everything about how the deck plays with other decks. The people who are winning the legacy tournaments have all said that they had tested that deck for a quite some time before the tournament. Know how to play with your flavor of tog and you will be successful. -peace, J.J.