PDA

View Full Version : [Deck] Mono-U Proteus Staff



Lego
05-05-2006, 04:03 PM
There is discussion of this deck on the MUC Discussion thread, and also a new thread about a form of this deck. The first discussion was really centering on this deck, and the second thread was a bit lacking, so I decided to start this thread to include a sort of mini-primer, and see if we can get some serious discussion about this deck. If the Mods want to figure out how to combine all these threads or what, that'd be great.

The Decklist
3 Powder Keg
1 Goblin Charbelcher/Darksteel Colossus
3 Proteus Staff
3 Vedalken Shackles

3 Boomerang
4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Remand
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Force Spike

11 Island
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Mishra's Factory

Card Analysis

Most things are self-explanatory, as usual.

The counter base is pretty solid. Remand can be swapped for Mana Leak at your convenience, and Force Spike can go out for Disrupt or Misdirection or more bounce or draw depending on your meta.

The win condition is Proteus Staff stacking your deck into a lethal Belcher. This can be substituted for Darksteel Collosus, but I prefer Belcher maindeck for several reasons. It allows you to stack your deck, so you can put draw on top and draw into Belcher and Counters at the same time. Also, more decks in the format pack maindeck Swords to Plowshares than maindeck Pithing Needle. Whatever you play as your win condition, play the other one in the board.

The manabase: Essentially 16 islands is plenty for Vedalken Shackles, and 7 man-lands are plenty for Proteus Staff.

Finally, Powder Keg: This is the most controversial card main. It makes Goblins amazing, taking out Lackey and Vial, your two biggest problem cards. It makes Affinity an auto-win, not that you'll ever see it, and it helps out in a lot of matchups. The thing that people don't always realize is that if this take out one or two threats, it's an on-color Terror, and otherwise it will simply make people play poorly. Incidentally, it deals with Pithing Needle.

Sideboard

My current board is as follows:

4 Misdirection
1 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Stifle
3 Pithing Needle

Annul has been suggested, but Pithing Needle has more applications, and basically covers the same bases.

I guess I should probably do some board plans. These are just off the top of my head here:

Deadguy: -4 Remand, +4 Misdirection (the other option here is Disrupt, but I like the MisD)

Solidarity: -3 Powder Keg, -1 Darksteel Colossus, -3 Vedalken Shackles, +1 Goblin Charblecher, +4 Stifle, +2 Pithing Needle. Here you're taking out all your dead cards and replacing them with Stifle. The Pithing Needles are simply the least dead card in your board, so they come in. Switch to the Charbelcher plan because it's usually a bit faster, and allows you to stack a draw +Stifles on top, with Charbelcher after that.

Goblins: -4 Force Spike (I'm guessing. Maybe Remand, I'm not sure.) +3 Red Elemental Blast, +1 Pithing Needle (you can possibly add more Pithing Needles, as Vial is tough for you, although Keg usually takes care of it.) If they are splashing White, you're going to want to switch to the Charbelcher plan just in case they're packing Swords. Also, remember that you can Boomerang Goblin Warchief before the combat step so that no one has haste anymore.

White Thresh: Your maindeck is golden, except for the Belcher plan. This is difficult, because they're probably going to bring in some number of Needles, but they'll also have Swords. Honestly, I'd have both in. Play Collossus, if they Swords him, you can then revert to the Charbelcher plan. It's difficult, and this is where I'd like to have more Kegs.

Red Thresh: -3 Force Spike, +3 Red Elemental Blast

Rifter: -4 Force Spike, +4 Stifle. Same thing with the weird Charbelcher/Colossus plan... you can board them both in, or just keep one and hope for the best. Wait... does Rifter even play Pithing Needle? Maybe just go with the Belcher plan (and remember that they might pack Disenchant)

Angel Stompy: -3 Remand, +3 Pithing Needle. I'm guessing the Force Spikes are better here, but I'd have to test. Also, remember that they pack Disenchant.

My matchup analysis is non-existant, since I was just trying to get some discussion going. I do know that Goblins is a good match, but that's all I can say so far. I would be happy to test with anyone.

Discuss!

tivadar
05-05-2006, 04:31 PM
One small problem. Though it's not see a whole lot, null rod is going to make you cry. I've seen a handful of gro decks and a couple of landstill decks out there that run it.

Lego
05-05-2006, 04:40 PM
One small problem. Though it's not see a whole lot, null rod is going to make you cry. I've seen a handful of gro decks and a couple of landstill decks out there that run it.

Counters + Boomerang is your answer to this. If it is prevelant in your area, you can increase your answers.

Ophidian
05-05-2006, 05:14 PM
What about Mana Accel? Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors.. something to power out your spells faster?

Atwa
05-05-2006, 05:17 PM
I am not sure if that is needed, testing will show.

I am going to play a little with in on MWS, because I have to wait for someone to play the next round of the Source Tournament. I'll post results later.

Edit:
I've played some rounds:
- Goblins handed over my ass, hardcore.
- You hand over random pile's ass (fish, stasis)

Fistandantilus
05-05-2006, 08:33 PM
I played this kind of deck with Ancestor's Chosen as the only creature (and Charbelcher as the kill). The life gain was quite good. Might help against fast aggro decks.

Bane of the Living
05-05-2006, 08:51 PM
This deck wasnt even a contender in Standard. How does it stand a chance in a much faster unforgiving format? At least add some accel..

This deck looks slower than a main phase King Cheeta.

Rood
05-05-2006, 09:32 PM
With all the Man-Lands here Lego Standstill is a MUST. Since you play 7 Man Lands dropping a turn 2 Standstill is good because you can block a Fanatic or apply pressure right of the bat. Insane draw here for you man.

Lego
05-05-2006, 11:33 PM
With all the Man-Lands here Lego Standstill is a MUST. Since you play 7 Man Lands dropping a turn 2 Standstill is good because you can block a Fanatic or apply pressure right of the bat. Insane draw here for you man.

Standstill is a card that quickly becomes useless. You can't drop it if they have virtually anything on the board. It's conditional draw, which I don't like, plus it blows in more matchups than it is good in. There's a reason Landstill isn't a good deck anymore.

As for this sucking in Standard, there are two things to be said for that. First, that's not true. Proteus/Belcher blew, but people were splashing Red and running all kinds of sub-optimal cards in that deck. It was just wrong. Mono-U with Proteus Staff as a win was quite a good deck, and held it with the best of them. Post-Combo Winter #2, it was one of the best sleeper decks in the format. The problem was that it didn't have great game with the best control deck in the format, which was heavily played. Second, we're looking at a completely different format, and therefore a completely different set of cards. Different card choices, different matchups, all of these things together mean that you can't judge a current deck based on old incarnations.

@Ophidian: Mana accel is definitely a possibility. I'd start with Chrome Mox. City of Traitors and Ancient Tomb are a no-go. The last thing you want to be doing is adding more colorless mana to the deck, not to mention the other drawbacks. I don't think you can support Mox Diamond with this mana base, so Chrome Mox is next up, although I'd look at the inclusion of either one. They both pitch to TfK, and will help your colored mana requirements a lot, but I'm not sure if the downside is worth it. The card disadvantage will be tough, and running so many non-blue spells for Chrome Mox might be an issue as well.

@Atwa: I'm not sure why Goblins is handing you your ass, as you say, my testing goes much differently. As with any control deck versus Goblins, it's not going to be easy, but what are you seeing happening here? Especially with Force Spikes in here, you should be overwhelming them pretty easily. A couple of early counters, Mishra's Factory on blocking duty, Powder Keg to take out the problem cards and Vedalken Shackles on cleanup duty. It should be difficult when they pull some amazing hands, but it shouldn't be as bad as you say it is at all.

As for random jank, Mono-U always beats that. Your problem is beating streamlined decks.

Rood
05-05-2006, 11:51 PM
Standstill is a card that quickly becomes useless. You can't drop it if they have virtually anything on the board. It's conditional draw, which I don't like, plus it blows in more matchups than it is good in. There's a reason Landstill isn't a good deck anymore.

Lego you are highly underestimated the power of Standstill. Yes you can drop it if you have nothing on the board because of the Man-Lands. Drop it when they have a fanatic on the board with a Factory in play. Are they going to break it? You betcha. It's great against basically all the top tier decks except Rifter. And even there you attack with Man-Lands so they have to play a spell most likely.

Benie Bederios
05-06-2006, 05:50 AM
The sideboard seems strong, but why are you bringing in Pithing Needle in against solidarity, Wouldn't Misdirection be better? There both suboptimal choices but Pithing Needle will block you to, and atleast can Misdirection return a large Stroke to you're opponent, or make you win a counterwar over a Meditate.

Second, I should definitly keep Force Spike in against Goblins. On play it gives you 8 outs for Vial and 15 outs against a first turn lacky. Also countering a second turn Piledriver normally buys enough time to set up you're win. The games I played againt the monored version where easy by the way. Counter there keycards( Lacky, Ringleader, Warchief) and you have just enough time to win.

I don't think Standstill is a good card in this deck. Goblins will have enough ways to go around it, against solidarity it is a bad card. Where Thirst for Knowledge is a draw card what is almost anytime good.

Accelaration is very tricky. I've tried Acient Tomb but it you must change you're entire deck. The closest thing I got was dropping the Manlands and use Fabricate for Shieldsphere and toolboxing. Same is true for City of Traitors.
The Moxen give cardloss, wich isn't that good. This still acts a control deck with a fast kill, so you don't have to win as fast as possible, and you can slip some things through, thanks to Keg and Shackles. I'm going to test Lotus Petal and Saprazzan Skerry but I think those are worse than the other options.

Poron
05-06-2006, 07:39 AM
ehi ehi ehi this is my deck! grrrr

anyway (just asking) this deck already existed? i planned it on myself, so i didn't know it was a deck already played.. :(

and..
1) why do you play chaerbelcher?
2) by side blazing archon is the way!

this is my list:
15 islands
4 blinkmoth nexus
4 mishra's factory
1 darksteel colossus
3 thirst of knowledge
4 proteus staff
3 impulse
4 brainstorm
4 mana leak
3 daze
4 force of will
4 counterspell
3 echoing truth
4 powder keg

Atwa
05-06-2006, 07:57 AM
I tested the Charbelcher kill, and it is simply amazing. I know the kill with Darksteel Colossus is also fine (and most of the time 1-2 turns faster, but you must not forget that Legacy is a format dominated by creatures, so spotremoval is all over the format.

I know Darksteel Colossus is immune to almost every kind of removal, but it still dies to most the of removal played in Legacy. Rifter has Humility. Gro and WR Goblins (and Burn) play Swords to Plowshares. Angel Stomy plays not only StP, but also Parallax Wave. Solidarity has Cunning Wish-> bounce.

Since most decks pack maindeck creaturehate and sideboard artifact hate, it is better to play the Belcher maindeck. After game 1, when sideboarding, most players will side in their artifact removal and side out their creatureremoval. Guess what you'll do: Switch Belcher for the Colossus. Think of it as a small transformational sideboard.

As for the Archon, I think that spot is totally meta dependant. But you have to ask yourself what's best. Keep your opponent from killing you, or kill your opponent yourself.

Dr.ugs
05-06-2006, 08:23 AM
I tested a deck thats like almost the same like your one(Sev-Belch) and I am going to write a primer on it next month so I think I can give you some advice.

Remand worked well in Solidarity but I doubt thats its a good choice here in a control deck.When you counter an important spell you want to take away your opponents option of re-casting it because you have a slow clock and you donīt have as much drawing power which brings me to the next point..

I doubt that your drawing engine is good enough.Do you think that that 4 TFK and 4 Brainstorm are enough , in a control-combo deck?Brainstorm is a cantrip which does not give you any real card advantage.TFK is great and you are running quite a lot artifacts but you wanīt like to discard a Vedalken Shackles against aggro or a Staff against control.I would go further and say after game 1 when they bring in hate you wonīt want to discard Shakles against Control or Staff againt Aggro.Itīs quite the same with Powder Keg.I would not really board it out because it kills Needles,Mages and so on and you are only running 3 anyway..When you discard 2 cards with TFK it wonīt give you card advantage just card qualits..and thats 3 mana is too much for a bad-brainstorm.

I advice you to take a look at the Sev-Belch thread or just try out Inutuition+AK+TFK+Mox(+Ancient Tomb) because its a well tested drawing engine.

Why are you running Bommerang?Are you afraid of the Factories that your opponent might be runnning?Well thats quite irrelevant I would rather use Echoing Truth because it often bounces 2 cards or a whole decree army and you can cast it does not cost double blue(which does matter because you are running 7 colorless resources which you really need to use so you have your Islands for Counterspells ).


Why arenīt you running Mana severence instead of Staff anyway?Just because it also gets shut down by needle?Or because it costs more?Is is because its an arifact that you can discard to TFK?So you can sacrifice your manlands?Or because you wanīt to run DSC the biggest StP target in the game?


Have you thought about Morphling?Staff gets creatures right and Phling is awesome against Aggro as well and you can also use it as win condition on its own.

Atwa
05-06-2006, 08:32 AM
I think you are making the mistake here of seeing this deck as a Belcher deck, because it isn't. This deck is build with Staff as the kill condition, Belcher is just a way of finishing the job. Belcher could also be Darksteel Colossus, Akroma or an other random Fatty.

Staff also has the advantage of being able to stack your whole deck. This is a very good thing. During testing I have activated it a lot without having a way to kill my opponent, only to make sure I got every answer I needed for the current state of the board, whenever anything gamechanging happened, I just activated staff again, giving me the answers.

Because of this, brainstorm is very good, not only does it digg 3 cards deep into your library, providing you cardqualenty. It also lets you draw the cards you stacked on top of your library for only 1 mana. If Staff could be activated whenever you could play an instant, I'd think about removing it from the deck. But the way the card is written, Brainstorm is a nessesairy evil.

Poron
05-06-2006, 09:56 AM
i didn't undestand very well the charbelcher kill.

i suppose you're not running at all creatures, but then when you've revealed the whole deck it stops or it keeps revealing blocking the match?

so you check all your deck you take charbelcher to the top and lands to the bottom, you draw the charbelcher and then activate it for 20 damage.

nice

MonkeY
05-06-2006, 11:51 AM
I am also in doubt of remands uses in a control deck. I think it oculd be replaced by something like 2 Fact or Fiction and 2 Mana Leak, or maybe just 4 Mana Leak. But I think that Fact Or Fiction certainly has a place in this deck - it seems odd that you don't even mention it. Can you give a reason for your exclusion of the best Card Advantage engine availiable in Legacy in MUC?

Brushwagg
05-06-2006, 11:55 AM
i didn't undestand very well the charbelcher kill.


so you check all your deck you take charbelcher to the top and lands to the bottom, you draw the charbelcher and then activate it for 20 damage.


You answered your own question.

Back when I played extended I played a version of Staff. Using Isochron Scepter w/ Raise the Alarm. Not original but it worked so even if I didn't have a man land I could activate Staff. I also added in Decree of Justice. Basically what I'm saying is if White was added I think the control portion would be a little better.

Just something off the top of my head.

4x Tundra
2x Blue shock land (name???)
4x Flooded Strand
2x Pollued Delta
2x Faerie Conclave/Mishra's Factory
4x Island
2x Plains
2-3 Ancient Tomb (added speed)

Control:
4x FOW
3-4 Counterspell
2-3 Cunning Wish/Boomerang(just because it can hit opponents lands)or WOG/STP/Fire & Ice/ETC...
3x Isochron Scepter
Draw/Turor:
4x Brainstorm
4x Serum Visions/Impulse
2-3 Enlightened Tutor
3x Thist for Knowledge
Combo:
2-3:Proteus Staff
3x Drecree of Justice
2x Raise the Alarm
1x Goblin Charbelcher
1x Dragon Breath(if you go DSC route)
Creatures
2xDSC/Exalted Angel/ Sundering Titan/Some thing big and FAT.

That is a really rough, off the top of my head, but I think White can greatly help. SB Meddling Mage/Disenchant can stop problems like Needle and Null Rod etc..

I added the random Dragon breath to give the DSC haste and just gives you something to discard to TFK if needed. Doesn't have to be there but speed the kill up to 2 turnS instead of 3.

Benie Bederios
05-06-2006, 12:06 PM
This is not Sev-Belcher. In this deck you only have 4 spots for you're win, instead of 8. This isn't a control/combo deck, but just plain control. The only difference is that it's got another kill instead of Morpling or Meluko.

As said before, Remand is a test slot. It is quite good in this deck, the gaining a card is nice, but you can replace it with Mana Leak or Daze if you like.

Boomerangs are just random draws wich never hurted me. Bounce a land turn 2, a Pithing Needle, a Solitary Confinement. It's quite nice. But if you don't like it I suggest you change it for Fact or Fiction.

For accelartion, this deck can't play more colorless manasources, so Tomb and City are impossible. Chrome mox can be tested, but the carddisadvantage isn't good in a control deck.

Tacosnape
05-06-2006, 12:16 PM
Ahh, I've been wanting to see people work on this deck for a long time.:cool:

Wouldn't it be better to just ignore the Colossus condition and stick with Belcher, because Pithing Needle makes you twitch anyway if they just drop it on Proteus Staff? And ditto for everything other card that hates on Belcher?

MonkeY
05-06-2006, 12:24 PM
I am not in favor of splashing a color, since I don't see what they would add to the deck. I came up with a quick list of possible cards that could be added.

Splashing Black
Cabal Therapy
Duress
Engineered Plague [SB]

Splashing Green
Voidslime
Oxidize [SB]

Splashing Red
REB[SB]
FTK[SB]
Pyroclasm[SB]
Shattering Spree[SB]

Splashing White
Ghostly Prison
STP
Wrath of God
Disanchant[SB]
Exalted Angel[SB]

Poron
05-06-2006, 12:55 PM
the only color i would splash is white for control (disenchant, wrath of god) and englithned tutor, others aren't really necessary

Dr.ugs
05-06-2006, 12:57 PM
This is not Sev-Belcher. In this deck you only have 4 spots for you're win, instead of 8. This isn't a control/combo deck, but just plain control. The only difference is that it's got another kill instead of Morpling or Meluko.

As said before, Remand is a test slot. It is quite good in this deck, the gaining a card is nice, but you can replace it with Mana Leak or Daze if you like.

Boomerangs are just random draws wich never hurted me. Bounce a land turn 2, a Pithing Needle, a Solitary Confinement. It's quite nice. But if you don't like it I suggest you change it for Fact or Fiction.

For accelartion, this deck can't play more colorless manasources, so Tomb and City are impossible. Chrome mox can be tested, but the carddisadvantage isn't good in a control deck.


You could also run fewer win conditions in Sev-Belch but this would make the deck less consistant.I would run at least a full set of Staff´s because you should expect your opponent to have answer for it and can´t counter anything deck cast.Sure this is a control deck but it also has a win that consists of 2 cards that make a "combo" this makes the whole deck faster than control.With multiple copies you will also have the option to just combo out your opponent without caring(which is huge) what the plays but with just the 3 Staffs and 0 acc.

Gaining a card is nice i agree but bouncing it back to your opponents hand so he can cast it again in the next or the same turn is bad because this is a rather slow deck.

Everyone knows that Mox has a causes card disadvantages but let me tell you something , with a slow control deck you won´t win survive in this format without accelaration.When extended got 2 fast..Tog and NO-Stick decks were also running Mox , even some tog builds without Sceptor.

I never sad Boomerang was a bad card but I don´t think you need 4 of it and since you I do think this deck lacks of card drawing I would swap it out for 2 FoF as well as 2 Echoing Truth because bouncing a land does matter less then bouncing 2 important cards with Echoing Truth.Also all the staff versions I saw are running 6-8 non blue mana producing lands.


@ Brushwagg:How doeyou expect to kill on turn 3 or even turn 2?With two or three Ancient Tomb beeing the only accelaration you got?

Poron
05-06-2006, 01:59 PM
i think it's not important to kill someone on turn 2 or 3 if u can have the control.

i usually win on turn 6. i don't play mana accelerators and cast staff on 3rd and her ability with a man land on 4th but, in the first 2 turns, i countered with misdirection, daze, Fow.

on turn 5 you attack trampling out everything, and on 6th is done.

what is really important is to control what other player do. infact landstill could work greatly in this deck..

Brushwagg
05-06-2006, 09:44 PM
@Dr.Ugs:Who the hell said anything about killing on turn 2? My list is off the top of my head but I used it as an example, of how another color can give you more control. Basically a CONTROL first, COMBO kill later. If I wanted to kill on turn 2 with Belcher then I would run 2 Land, but that deck sucks. Not sure if thyis one can or will get much better but I like to try new things and Staff can be quite broken. Are you worried about the Solidarity match-up?? If so add some more counters. Gro has a really good Solidarity match-up and it only runs 6-7 hard counters plus Daze.

If you look at the top teir right now there really isn't a good pure control deck. Before anyone says anything Gro is agrro/control. I really see no good reason to play a Mono-Blue control deck anymore.

Rastadon
05-06-2006, 11:03 PM
Monkey: A big reason to go green is Simic Sky Swallower. Everything you want in a kill condition.

Lego
05-07-2006, 12:35 AM
@ Card Drawing, Counters, Bounce: A lot of you guys make some good points. There are good arguments to be made for Remand and for Mana Leak, arguments to be made for Intuition or FoF, same to be said for Chrome Mox or Force Spike or any of the others. Try not to get mad about it, just test it out how you like it, and switch things up when you feel like it's the right thing to do :)

I'd say the minimums are a couple bounce spells, 8 draw, and 12 counters, so fiddle with the numbers as much as you want. That's the beauty of MUC :D

I'll personally switch Boomerang for Echoing Truth, Remand for Mana Leak, and Force Spike for 2 Chrome Mox, 2 FoF in my testing, but I don't see any of that making a huge difference.



The sideboard seems strong, but why are you bringing in Pithing Needle in against solidarity, Wouldn't Misdirection be better? There both suboptimal choices but Pithing Needle will block you to, and atleast can Misdirection return a large Stroke to you're opponent, or make you win a counterwar over a Meditate.

Yes, MisD probably is better. I forgot that we play the same fetches they do. Sorry. Chalice is good if you're seeing a lot of Solidarity/Thresh.

Poron
05-08-2006, 02:09 PM
i have a doubt about this deck.

if i animate a mishra and activate the proteus, if opponent, in response STP my mishra ability works too (because is already on the stack) or doesn't work?

Atwa
05-08-2006, 02:35 PM
First of all, Your opponent can never ever play a Swords to Plowshares on your Factory (or Nexus for that matter). You activate your Factory and you pass priority, your opponent can't play a StP since he has no legal target (Factory is still no creature). After Factory becomes a creature and you activate your Staff. Now your opponent has the opportunity to cast StP and remove your poor Assembly Worker, since your creature gets put under your library at the resolution of the effect.

So to make a long aswer short: your opponent can disrupt the combo with StP, only in an other way you thought. Off course you play with a counter-heavy deck, so countering the StP shouldn't be that much trouble.

Poron
05-08-2006, 02:48 PM
depend.. so it's better if i play MisD directly from main..

often i get a turn 3 staff and turn 4 combo so i have all tapped when comboing..

ok misd in main

Poron
05-08-2006, 03:00 PM
ok.. :look:

i don't know if someone is interested but this is my new deck list

4 mishra factory
4 blinkmoth nexus
13 island

3 thirst for knowledge
4 proteus staff
3 impulse
4 brainstorm
4 mana leak
3 daze
4 force of will
3 misdirection
3 powder keg
3 echoing truth
4 counterspell

sb:
4 pithing needle
1 goblin charbelcher
3 blue elemental blast
1 gaea's blessing (solidarity/brain freeze decks 100% owned)
3 chalice of the void (solidarity, red burns)
3 chill (GOBLIN GRRR)

looking fot advices.

parallax
05-08-2006, 03:27 PM
ok.. :look:

i don't know if someone is interested but this is my new deck list

4 mishra factory
4 blinkmoth nexus
13 island

3 thirst for knowledge
4 proteus staff
3 impulse
4 brainstorm
4 mana leak
3 daze
4 force of will
3 misdirection
3 powder keg
3 echoing truth
4 counterspell

sb:
4 pithing needle
1 goblin charbelcher
3 blue elemental blast
1 gaea's blessing (solidarity/brain freeze decks 100% owned)
3 chalice of the void (solidarity, red burns)
3 chill (GOBLIN GRRR)

looking fot advices.

You forgot to list Darksteel Colossus in your list.

Gaea's Blessing does not 100% pwn Solidarity. They can simply play a draw spell or another Brain Freeze or Remand with the trigger on the stack. Disruption + a fast clock beats Solidarity.

Benie Bederios
05-08-2006, 03:28 PM
hmm, I see it is heading more for the combo. In you're version you play 7 artifacts, I doubt that it's enough for TfK. And I think Daze is to much tempo loss, If you're in for turn 4 kills, you need some other accelaration. Also braintorm without fetch isn't that good. The nice thing of Shackles is that you can put oppontents creatures on there library and search for one in yours.

I should add some accelaration( chrome mox or so) and play the deck more comboish.

At final add a wincondition like DSC or Charbelcher.:tongue:

Anusien
05-08-2006, 03:33 PM
Why not play Goblin Charbelcher, so you can stack your deck with Proteus Staff so that Belcher and 20 nonlands are on top, then Belch for the win?

Also, why the lack of Vedalken Shackles? They would be an auto-include even without Proteus Staff.

Poron
05-08-2006, 04:00 PM
obviously i play a DSC :D i just forgot it :D

anyway:

-gaea's blessingin sb: when you activate bf if i have it in my library i shuffle the deck once ended the mill of the bf isn't it correct?

so if u play another bf or you copy it or you remand are replay it i will have always my deck.

the probleme is if they play words of wisdom but you know.. if i have just to counter 1 thing is much more easy.

anyway: your advices are to drop brainstorm and TFK? brainstorm are good digger (?) for 1 mana, and TFK gives me 3 new cards withouth having to put em back (as brainstorm) and i can discard my colossus (if i get it in my hand)

so brainstorm ok, i can drop it. but, what do i put instead?

vedalken shackles: i played it they're nice but.. too slow and often happens i have just 2 islands on the field so they're not so strong. may be by side against a white STP deck. i steal how own creatures saving my lands from his STP or making him to autodestruct his own creatures.

but: by side in these cases i prefer chalice, 2 mana and no more problems of STP

so: what should i drop to add vedalken? i was also thinking to add dissipate.. 2-3
what about it?

sorry for my english you know.. my preparation sucks

Poron
05-08-2006, 04:00 PM
obviously i play a DSC :D i just forgot it :D

anyway:

-gaea's blessingin sb: when you activate bf if i have it in my library i shuffle the deck once ended the mill of the bf isn't it correct?

so if u play another bf or you copy it or you remand and play again it i will have always my gaea saving my deck.

the probleme is if they play words of wisdom but you know.. if i have just to counter 1 thing is much more easy.

anyway: your advices are to drop brainstorm and TFK? brainstorm are good digger (?) for 1 mana, and TFK gives me 3 new cards withouth having to put em back (as brainstorm) and i can discard my colossus (if i get it in my hand)

so brainstorm ok, i can drop it. but, what do i put instead?

vedalken shackles: i played it they're nice but.. too slow and often happens i have just 2 islands on the field so they're not so strong. may be by side against a white STP deck. i steal how own creatures saving my lands from his STP or making him to autodestruct his own creatures.

but: by side in these cases i prefer chalice, 2 mana and no more problems of STP

so: what should i drop to add vedalken? i was also thinking to add dissipate.. 2-3
what about it?

sorry for my english you know.. my preparation sucks

Poron
05-08-2006, 04:11 PM
aaaaaa idea!! what about copy artifact? DSC copied!! vedalken copied!

Lego
05-08-2006, 04:25 PM
depend.. so it's better if i play MisD directly from main..

often i get a turn 3 staff and turn 4 combo so i have all tapped when comboing..

ok misd in main

Misdirection does not deserve a maindeck slot except in really weird metas. There are better/more relevant counters.

@Your list: Vedalken Shackles rocks. Test it more, it should be winning you games all on its lonesome.

Daze is bad. You don't want to be losing tempo in this deck. If you really want that capability, play Force Spike.

Gaea's Blessing is useless. Play Stifle if you want to have a card to board in for them.

Don't play Copy Artifact, it's win more in every situation. You're almost never going to want to copy a Powder Keg, because you almost never want to play more than one at a time. You're not going to copy Proteus Staff, so this leaves Vedalken Shackles and your win condition (which had better be Colossus, because Copy Artifact is useless for Charbelcher.) If your win is Colossus, the Copy Artifact can just as easily be a second Colossus. So Copy Artifact is basically in there solely to copy Vedalken Shackles. It's dead everytime you draw it and don't have Shackles or haven't already comboed off.

Consider Goblin Charbelcher as your maindeck win condition, it has a lot more going for it than Colossus.

Try not to double post, it makes us think this deck is actually popular :-P Just edit things into your last post. Thanks :)

Poron
05-08-2006, 04:43 PM
ok thanks for advices!

i dropped daze for force spike (they're better i already wanted to try them)

i can try removing 3 powder keg for 3 vedalken shackles what do u think about? (powder keg is a nice control resource.. needle cost 1 and 1 turn powder keg is fine)

and misdirection for dissipate? (i'm not sure of this..)

Lego
05-08-2006, 08:43 PM
Don't drop Powder Keg for the Shackles, you want to run both. Incidentally, this will make your TfKs more efficient (I'm running 2 Chrome Mox as well, so they're pretty efficient as is.) You can actually take the Misdirections out for Shackles, and you'd be pretty close to the list I run anyway.

I'd run at least 22 land, but if it's working for you, so be it. Either way, if you're keeping Brainstorm, you might want to throw in some fetches to make it better (or run a different cantrip.)

Cut a Proteus Staff. With so much draw, you'll have no problem drawing into one, and multiples sucks. How is Impulse working for you? If I were going to run a 1U draw, I'd probably make it Accumulated Knowledge.

In response to one of your previous comments, you don't ever want to tap out with MUC unles you've got Force in hand and you're sure it won't lose you the game. Dropping a turn 3 staff is sort of crazy (or turn 2 with a Chrome Mox.) You're not a combo deck, you're a control deck that happens to have a combo win condition. It's simply that Proteus Staff/Goblin Charbelcher wins faster and creates less dead cards than other win conditions. You normally should not be trying to combo out as fast as possible with this deck. It will play differently than other control decks simply because you can win so quickly, but it shouldn't be your first plan.

Benie Bederios
05-09-2006, 04:17 AM
I think that it is nice that you can win that fast. Against Goblins I always want to put down a Staff third turn, after I delayed them the first two turns. As D.rugs said, it's great to be able to combo out whitout thinking about you're opponent.

As for changes, I'm playing Pithing Needle mainboard now, instead of the boomerangs. Although they're not so good against ********, in alot of matchups I put one down on Wasteland to keep the manlands alive. As for the sideboardslots I'm trying to Washout now.

I also changed my mainboard win to Charbelcher. Today I'm going to test against Goblins and UGwr *****. I'll post my results asap.

Poron
05-09-2006, 07:23 AM
i think charbelcher win is too fragile.. the strongest thing of DSC combo is that once proteus staff is in game nothing else can be countered (and everyone except for vial goblins play counters), because staff works on man land e put out DSC without playing anything (witch is great). i still think the best wc is DSC

Mirrislegend
05-09-2006, 08:52 AM
i think charbelcher win is too fragile.. the strongest thing of DSC combo is that once proteus staff is in game nothing else can be countered (and everyone except for vial goblins play counters), because staff works on man land e put out DSC without playing anything (witch is great). i still think the best wc is DSC

Not everyone except vial goblins play counters. More relevant is Lego's comment in the original post about how StP is much much much more common than Pithing Needle. Since you only run one DSC, one StP is most likely game over for you. With Belcher, all you have to do is defend the belcher as you cast it: if you cant activate it asap, then you can the next turn, and in the unlikely case that they have the Needle for that gap, you should be able to handle it. Heck you dont even need to! Just bounce it and then activate belcher. I love DSC just like the next guy, but Belcher is much safer/more reliable for this deck

Lego
05-09-2006, 11:39 AM
The one thing, above all else, that makes the Charbelcher win better than the Colossus win is the fact that you get to stack your entire deck. This means refilling your hand (setting up perfect Thirsts) or sculpting your hand (Brainstorm) into the Bounce/Counters that you need to go with the Charbelcher. You can then virtually assure that it will resolve and that you will have a way to deal with any problems.

This can't be said for the Colossus win. You have to have the counter in hand for the Swords or you can't go off with Colossus. He also doesn't win in a single turn, or even two turns. You have to pass the turn twice before he will be swinging for lethal damage, and you don't know what cards you will be drawing in that period. I'd much rather stack my deck and win at my leisure, on my own turn, without passing.

Not that it comes up much, but Charbelcher is less dead when drawn before you want to win. There have been one or two games when lategame I haven't had the Proteus Staff and I've simply used Charbelcher to pick off a few creatures, or thinned enough lands to kill with it over a couple of turns. Hey, it's not pretty, but it can be done.

Benie Bederios
05-09-2006, 05:54 PM
Well look at the winconditions then.

Darksteel Colossus
+ Imuun to artifact hate, can't think of a card that removes artifacts from the game
+ Imuun to Massremoval, Same as above
+ Can't be needled
+ Pitches to Thirst for Knowledge
+ Can block, with other words: it can be used directly with no additonal mana
+ Still strong if hardcasted
- Dies to Swords to Plowshare, Humility, Moat
- Takes atleast( well most of the time) 3 turns
- Very hard to hardcast
- Bad when you have Proteus staff in play and Darksteel Colussus in hand

Goblin Charbelcher
+ Imuun to Creature hate
+ Kills the turn after it comes into play( this can take as long as Darksteel Colussus for example: turn 3 Proteus Staff, turn 4 use, turn 5 play Goblin Charbelcher, turn 6 kill / or turn 3 staff, turn 4 use, turn 5 beat for 11, turn 6 kill) but can kill faster lategame
+ Has limited uses when hardcasted
+ Can be hardcasted
- Dies to artifacthate
- Can be needled
- Doesn't pitch to Thirst for Knowledge
- Must be hardcasted -> can be countered

This is why I chose Darksteel Colossus. In most matchups you only have to protect Colossus against one card, wich is a 4 off( well Edict also kills it, but then you can play it again) and Goblin Charbelcher must be forced through an additional counterwall against *****. Also if Goblin Charbelcher gets countered or destroyed it's up to you're manlands and Veldakan Shackles, where Darksteel Colossus will come back again. Only in the Riftermatch I found Belcher better. Where you must counter 8+ cards for DSC( StP, Humility and maybe Moat)

Poron
05-09-2006, 07:21 PM
rifter is a deck very easy to defeat.

BEB to destroy lightning rift is always great and u need just to change DSC with charbelcher on second game so... even if you lose 1st game is very rare you're going to lose the other 2.

anyway, can lightning rifter be pithing needled? i suppose not..

Phantom
05-09-2006, 07:55 PM
anyway, can lightning rifter be pithing needled? i suppose not..

Sadly no. To be able to be needled, it needs to be in the "Pay something:Do Something" format. Without the : needle won't stop it.

MonkeY
05-09-2006, 10:32 PM
- Can be needled

It doesn't matter that charbelcher can be needled, cause if they needle anything it will be Proteus Staff...so therefor play charbelcher!

Lego
05-10-2006, 03:13 AM
+ Imuun to artifact hate, can't think of a card that removes artifacts from the game

Altar's Light, Amulet of Unmaking and Splinter (not to mention Legacy Weapon.) But we know what you mean.


+ Imuun to Massremoval, Same as above

Except Final Judgment, but again, we know what you mean.


+ Still strong if hardcasted

If you are hardcasting Colossus, you probably could have already won with manlands.


Goblin Charbelcher
- Must be hardcasted -> can be countered

If Charbelcher is getting countered, you're probably doing something wrong. You don't have to stack Belcher on top and all your lands on the bottom. Set up a couple of Thirst for Knowledge, shape your hand with Brainstorm, whatever you need to do. I'm considering putting more CA spells almost exclusively for this setup (not that they wouldn't be awesome the rest of the time.) Sometimes Charbelcher isn't even the best card to be looking for immediately. Put it a couple of turns down, and put the game away before you get there. Powder Keg away the board, steal everything with a couple of Shackles, make sure you hit your land drops.

An easy mistake to make is to turbo Staff, casting it and attempting to combo off as soon as possible (although this is occasionally the right move.) Another easy mistake is to assume that after you Staff, you immediately want to be going for Charbelcher (although this is usually the right move.) There are often other ways to simply win the game that can be done immediately, without having to let Belcher sit around vulnerable. Drawing into Powder Keg, Boomerang, Boomerang to destroy Affinity's board, for example, will usually prompt a concession, and if it doesn't, Charbelcher will be ready in a turn or two.

ASIDE: If your opponent casts Needle on Charbelcher, just make sure your stack includes Powder Keg, Boomerang, or both.

Poron
05-10-2006, 12:27 PM
what you say is nice and has its logic but playing the deck i can't manage to keep control that much..

can you write your deck list? so i can see differences in controlling the deck.. i play 18 counters 3 echoing truth and 3 powder keg and still i can't lock the game untill i get a safe charbelcher to win.. so.. how do you keep the game so "controlled"?

Lego
05-11-2006, 03:54 AM
can you write your deck list? so i can see differences in controlling the deck.. i play 18 counters 3 echoing truth and 3 powder keg and still i can't lock the game untill i get a safe charbelcher to win.. so.. how do you keep the game so "controlled"?

Do you play Vedalken Shackles? That will help a lot versus creature based decks.

Otherwise, the reason you're not keeping the game controlled is that the deck is bad. You probably need to splash another color, depending on what problems you're seeing, for the deck to be any good.

ASIDE: Apparently Stifle sucks against Solidarity, and you'd be better off playing Dandan :) (but I still want to maindeck Stifle just so I can randomly play 1CC Land Destruction)

Poron
05-11-2006, 06:56 AM
i play stifle too and you were right shackles are great here.

i tried it yesterday and works very well! i play too stifle (3) but i need something vs black/white discard decks...

first turn duress is too strong vs me

Benie Bederios
05-11-2006, 06:37 PM
first turn duress is too strong vs me
That's why Midirection is in the board, it is the best blue answer against Hymn, Duress and Sinkhole( where Psychic Purge is very funny too.) It is still very bad matchup but when you get a Colossus in play you'll probably win.



Otherwise, the reason you're not keeping the game controlled is that the deck is bad.

... maybe some more explanation. I think this deck must be mono-U, or else you will get a very different deck. For example if you splash white you can just change manlands to Tundra and Wasteland, Kegs to Wraths, Proteus Staff and Colossus to Exalted Angel and Force spike to Swords to Plowshare.

The reason we play this silly wincondition, is that we can keep the deck Mono-U. This allows us to play a lot of counters, with a good wincondition. Where the mainreason to splash other colors is for the wincondition: white for Exalted Angel, red for Burning Wish( this is a win condition), black for tog and I don't see any point for splashing green outside Turboland.

On the other hand I know what you're driving at, one of the main reason to play Mono-U is that you are imuun to Wasteland and can play cards like B2B, but we are playing manlands. So maybe we should give up the win condition and go another route. So please explain what you meant.

Anyway I did some testing

Goblins: preboard 60/40
Postboard 60/40
I played against the Rw version with armegeddon in the side as well as REB. I was able to win games just by speed. Dropping Pithing Needle on Vial first and then on Wasteland and win. If you make sure the Lacky doesn't hit you'll have a good change, but if it hits, it is a battle uphill. Vial isn't a great problem because mainboard Needle and Keg. After Sideboarding they'll bring REB and armageddon and you will bring in BEB. The match will stay more or less the same. If you can stop the initial attack, you can win.

********: preboard 50/50
postboard 50/50
This match is very thight. If you are quick enough you can gain control with Kegs to destroy there Mongoose and Shackles for the rest. The only problem is that it is a counterwar over them. You can't tap out playing one of them or you will loose the counterwar, because they have more free counters. I normally try to counter every creature and wait quite a while before I use the staff. You can't bring in a lot against them, but neither can they against you( I've tested the UGwr version), so the postboardgame is quite the same.

EDIT: fixed the grammer a little

noobslayer
05-11-2006, 06:43 PM
Just so you know, you can't misdirect a duress.

MattH
05-11-2006, 11:59 PM
Actually you can, it just won't do anything, because you're forced to choose yourself as the "new" target. But it can be done - for example, to put another counter on Quirion Dryad, or to turn Hellbent on.

Poron
05-12-2006, 07:42 AM
wait wait, so i can misdirect cards witch say "target opponent"

can i? (even if they don't work then)

Please start using capital letters. I reviewed this thread and it doesn't seem like you've used capitals once.

-PR

MattH
05-13-2006, 04:20 PM
You can cast Misdirection on any spell which has exactly one target. Duress has one target, so that play is legal. However, Duress' controller only has one opponent (you, the MisD player) so you're forced to re-choose yourself as the target.

Misdirecting a Duress 98% of the time either does nothing or worse than nothing (losing two cards instead of just one). But it is technically legal (just a bad idea most of the time).

Lego
05-13-2006, 04:34 PM
(losing two cards instead of just one)

Usually you'll lose three cards. Misdirection, the pitched card, and the Duressed card.

The best option here is probably Disrupt.

@Benie: Mostly I was just in a silly mood, and kind of mad at the deck. I don't think it's Tier 1 or anything, but I'm glad so may people are having fun playing it. As for the splashes, I was thinking about removal rather than win conditions. White for Swords was what I was thinking about the most, but there are other options. I'm not sure this would really help much though, as matchups where you need removal aren't really your worst matchups. Maybe Black for some sideboard options, Duress, etc. I'd have to do more testing to figure out my bad matchups before I knew what to splash, and test the splash to see if it improves those matchups at all.

Benie Bederios
05-14-2006, 07:13 AM
Hey guys I played the tournament yesterday and I placed second, loosing the final to Rw Vialgoblins, due to a turn-3 kill game 1, and a resolved Armageddon game 2. I beat ********, mono-R goblins and Solidarity, and some other crap. I shall post a report later.

About Duress, Silly I forgot

Benie Bederios
05-16-2006, 05:59 PM
Allright I went to the tournament with this list

11 Islands
2 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Blinkmoth Nexus

3 Powder Keg
3 Proteus Staff
3 Veldakan Shackles
3 Pithing Needle

1 Darksteel Colossus

4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Force Spike
4 Remand
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

Sideboard

4 Misdirection
1 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Arcane Laboratory
4 Echoing Truth

I'm very bad in names, so I didn't remember a single one :S

First match: Mono-Red Goblins
Game 1: He plays a first turn Lacky. Dropping a second turn chief. I play a second turn Powder Keg wich I blow up at one, killing a Fanatic and the Lacky. He tried to come gain card advantage with Ringleader, but he couldn't resolve a single one. Fifth turn I play an Staff wich playes Colossus a turn later, and I win.
Game 2: I boarded in 3 Blasts and a Echoing Truth, for 4 Remands. I kill his first turn Lacky, Needle his second turn Vial, dropped Staff turn three, and commence beatdown turn four. The deck was running optimal this game.

Second match: CounterSliver( why is there always a sliver deck in local tournaments. It doesn't do shit)
Game 1: Game one I countered a Crystalline Sliver, Needled a Hibernation Sliver, and slowly gain advantage with Veldakan Shackles. I just controlled the game and commenced the beatdown with manlands, wich got company of a Colossus.
Game 2: I didn't change my maindeck. Won the game quite easy with a fifth turn colossus. Slivers can't put early presure on me, and all the slivers have about the same size, so I could easily trade off slivers with Shackles.

Third match: Rapid Wombat( mono white control)
Game 1: I resolved a Staff and used it with 2 FoW's in hand. He Plowed my COlossus three times:S. After that I used the backupplan to shuffle all manlands to the top of my library and still finished him off. The deck can't do much against 7 man-lands.
Game 2: I changed to my Belcher plan, and add Echoing Truth for Force Spike. He resolved a Needle on Staff. But I bounce it EOT turn and win next turn because I had 8 lands in play.

Fourth match: UGw *****
I lost the first game against two Mongoose and a Meddling Mage on staff( he knew what I played, tha bastard)
Second game I brought in the misdirections for the Remands , so that I had a better change at counterwars and went with the belcher kill. I was able to resolve a Staff, and win three turns later.
Game three was Ugly, He Needled Staff, Meddling Mage on Belcher. But I kept away all his other creatures and was able to beat him down with manlands in a very long game.

Top 8
Quarter Final: Solidarity
I don't know how he got in the the top eight, he played terribly. This where to very short games, in wich I won on turn 5 and turn 6. I boarded Misdirection in for 3 Kegs and a Island and Labs for Shackles.

Semi Final: UGr *****
The other color *****. I feared this was a very bad matchup, but I won the first game with a Shackled Werebear and kegged his mongooses away. I made the same changes against the other *****, but keeped the Colossus kill.
Game 2: I resolved a Staff, but couldn't keep my manlands alive for a long time, He was beating down with a Mongoose, got me add seven but made a stupid mistake to cast a Werebear. I Played Shackles used it. And used the staff a turn later and killed him, just in time.

Finals: Rw Vial Goblins
Game 1: what can I say he killed me thrid turn. I couldn't counter a single card. I boarde 4 remands out for 3 Blasts and a Echoing Truth.
Game 2: He didn't get his first turn lacky, and I was able to keep away alot of threads with counters. after five turns I was through my counters and he resolves a Armageddon and a vial. I couldn't come back from that point and lost.

It was a fun day. I liked the deck quite much. I won some games due some luck, and lost the final due to a shitload of badluck.

Any comments

Eldariel
05-17-2006, 11:46 AM
Colossus also has the problem of dying to Diabolic Edict, Innocent Blood, Chainer's Edict and Wing Shards, all seeing some degree of play recently (Shards in Rifter and Wombat, Edicts and Blood in MBC and Bx-variants). Oh, and there's always Dust to Dust; luckily the format doesn't contain enough artifacts for people to play it.

Btw, Deadguy-variants tend to play StP too, so a resolved Colossus is by no means a guarantee of victory, especially with their discard clearing the way for StP. I'd really strongly suggest playing Belcher as it is not a dead draw if you wind up with it in hand without a Brainstorm. Basically, being able to stack your library allows you to win every game that's winnable as your deck has the tools and you can ensure you draw them, while with Colossus, you're leaving it up to the chance, what you'll draw after it.

Benie Bederios
05-17-2006, 03:10 PM
Well actually I was expecting to see much combo decks. And the DSC method is faster most of the time and it leaves me with more mana for counters.

I didn't encounter a Confidant deck, I didn't tested against it either. As for changes, I'll start testing both mainboard and see if that works out and I'm going to test the belcher plan.

What I did like was the Remand. Remanding a FoW is fun, because they lost a card and you didn't.

DragoFireheart
09-17-2007, 06:18 PM
Having recently played an Type 1 Oath deck that I enjoyed a great deal I saw Proteus Staff as an alternative kill card that isn't banned in Legacy.

So how is this deck working out? As any recent work been put into this deck?

HdH_Cthulhu
09-17-2007, 07:14 PM
First of all Standstill is amaizing! Even against Landstill!


Why not play both DSC and Belcher?
First you bring in the DSC, thene the Belcher!
If they have a awnser for DSC they will die against a Belcher...

I mean it this is pretty solid!


It doesnt make any sence why not playing both...

Aggro_zombies
09-17-2007, 08:03 PM
It doesnt make any sence why not playing both...
Neither does your post. Lrn 2 spel plz kthxbai.

It seems like Tolaria West would be a decent card here as a way to grab a manland. It could also enable a land toolbox, where you run stuff like Tabernacle and Wasteland, etc.