[Deck] WG Alcatraz Survival [Archive]

iOWN

06-07-2006, 03:31 PM

The deck has come long and far, so I've replaced my original post.

The Deck - Current list:

// Alcatraz Survival
// Lands
6 Forest (1)
4 [MM] Plains (1)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [R] Savannah
1 [MR] Tree of Tales

// Creatures
3 [MI] Wall of Roots
1 [UD] Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
3 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
3 [MR] Troll Ascetic
2 [JU] Anurid Brushhopper
2 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
2 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon
1 [JU] Genesis
1 [JU] Glory
1 [US] Monk Realist
1 [VI] Uktabi Orangutan

// Spells
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
1 [JU] Solitary Confinement
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
1 [NE] Parallax Wave
1 [NE] Seal of Cleansing

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [OD] Karmic Justice
SB: 1 [MR] Rule of Law
SB: 1 [UD] Compost
SB: 1 [IN] Sterling Grove
SB: 1 [IN] Aura Shards
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [LE] Glowrider
SB: 1 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [DIS] Loaming Shaman
SB: 1 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 [ON] True Believer
SB: 1 [UD] Masticore
SB: 1 [US] Worship

Choices

Tree of Tales - If you ever get mana screwed, this can be fetched by Enlightened Tutor.

Wall of Roots - The best mana-creature available; it chumps, and produces two mana a turn for Survival of the Fittest (essentially having haste).

Loxodon Hierarch - One of the most important creatures in the deck. It's life gain makes you pretty resilient against Aggro and Burn, and it's body is four-for-four. Better than Baloth in RGSA!

Troll Ascetic - This guy is invincible. A house versus control being immune to most removal, AND Regeneration so it can infinitely chump. Another amazing creature, and he makes a Worship lock possible.

Anurid Brushhopper - Three mana for a 3/4 is good enough, but he also can evade death and pitch useless cards.

Eternal Witness - Essential to have, she can return your StPs, Tutors, and even countered Survivals.

Squee, Goblin Nabob and Genesis - These make up your Survival Engine.

Nimble Mongoose - Like Troll Ascetic, Mongeese are hard to kill, and this one can have a great body.

Eternal Dragon - Fetches you lands, returns to your hand and fetches more lands... a mana fixer and a huge, flying beater, both at once.

Uktabi Orangutan and Monk Realist - Your toolbox hate.

Glory - Makes way for beaters, and protects your creatures against removal.

Swords to Plowshares - Amazing removal; it gets rid of any threats and even more when you throw an Eternal Witness into the mix.

Chrome Mox - Much debated, but IMO, this is the best acceleration for the deck.

Survival of the Fittest - Although some think the deck would fare better without this, I chose to keep it in. For now.

[I]Solitary Confinement - It is a lock with Squee, Genesis, or Dragon, and stops a lot of decks dead in their tracks.

Enlightened Tutor - Adds much consistency to the deck, and gives you a toolbox of enchantments.

Parallax Wave - It creates a 'lock' with a Witness in play, but also allows you to fetch removal with Tutor when needed.

Seal of Cleansing - The last maindeck toolbox enchantment, this takes care of things your Orangutan/Realist can not, like Humility, Pithing Needle, etc.

Match-Ups (Good to Bad.)

Rifter - Very Favorable

Preboard; you can just beat down on them for the win, but also, some builds don't even maindeck Enchantment hate so you are able to Confinement Lock them. If they drop a Rift, fetch Realist. If they drop a Humility, play your cheapest creatures and swing while trying to find a Seal of Cleansing. Trolls and Mongeese are the best in this match.

Sideboard - -1 Orangutan, -1 Parallax Wave; +1 Aura of Silence, +1 Aura Shards. (Possible Sterling Grove and Worship.)

Postboard; may be a little bit harder, but if you get your sideboarded hate, you should win with no problem.

Threshold - Favorable

Preboard; you have more, bigger, creatures. Eat them. Confinement locks are great preboard.

Sideboard - -1 Monk Realist (if no Worship), -1 Parallax Wave, -1 Solitary Confinement (Thresh boards Crypt), +1 Tormod's Crypt, +1 Loaming Shaman, +1 Worship. (Possible Glowrider.)

Postboard; isn't too much different. They might bring in Enchantment and Graveyard hate, but with a constant flow of creatures and even a Worship lock, you should always have an advantage. Beatdown (nonsurvival) hands are better in this match-up, expect Pithing Needles.

Angel Stompy - Favorable

Preboard; you should be able to bring down the beats, but first game locks are also good. (AS can sometimes get ahead of you on the board.) Parallax Waves are good.

Sideboard - This depends on the build. Artifact hate is usually good, so is Masticore, but it varies.

Postboard; not much changes here. Depending on what they bring in, your best bet is just to beat down, and stack up on removal since Angel can be a trouble.

Goblins - Slightly Favorable

Preboard; just try to race them into a lock. Hierarchs are best in this match.

Sideboard - -1 Monk Realist, +1 Masticore. (Possible Engineered Explosives and Worship.)

Postboard; if they board in Anarchy, you should just still try to make a lock and beatdown via Glory.

Deadguy - Unfavorable

Preboard; they can just go on destroying your shit and your hand with Vindicate, Sinkhole, Hymn, etc. It's kind of tough, but just try and get your creatures out. Hierarchs and Trolls are best.

Sideboard - -1 Realist, -1 Parallax Wave (you'll never get this down well), -1 Seal of Cleansing (Orangutan should be enough); +1 Karmic Justic, +1 Compost, +1 Sterling Grove.

Postboard; much better, but still not great. Try to get those sideboarded protection cards and you should get off fine.

Solidarity - Very Unfavorable

Preboard; I'll just skip to the sideboard. There's literally nothing you can do except try to get a Confinement lock and hope it will slow them down.

Sideboard; -4 StP, -1 Parallax Wave; +2 Glowrider, +1 Rule of Law, +1 Sterling Grove, +1 True Believer.

Postboard; try to resolve Glowrider, RoL, or True Believer/Glory 'lock', and you'll have a chance.

Tournament Results: 33rd; Legacy Championship 2006. More to come.

Cards under Consideration: Umezawa's Jitte.

Phantom

06-07-2006, 03:59 PM

You seem to have the same problem that most survival decks have. Namely that the deck is sub-optimal if you don't draw or can't activate survival. Not drawing it can be played around with the help of tutors, but this deck completely folds to one pithing needle naming survival because many of your cards are worthless without survival. And almost every deck in the format runs needle main or side.

I think the key to a good survival deck is to just build a solid deck, then throw in survival to help the deck run smoothly. Recurring Nightmare Survival seems to be all the rage these days.

CynicalSquirrel

06-07-2006, 04:02 PM

There also seem to be some auto-include cards randomly missing from your deck. Namely Eternal Witness. Especially in a deck with Swords to Plowshares, recurring Witness with Genesis is absolutely nuts. At least three or four of them should be in there.

Loxodon Hierarch should also be a 4 of MD. He's the biggest reason to add white to Survival in the first place.

Also, instead of running excess copies of Worship and Solitary Confinement, I would just drop them both to one and add Enlightened Tutors. This way you can get Survival and also have a toolbox sideboard with more Worships, Aura Shards, etc.

Tacosnape

06-07-2006, 04:08 PM

Perhaps I've never understood this, but how exactly is Spore Frog / Genesis a lock when Goblins/Threshold/Deadguy Ale can just Fanatic/Incinerator/Sharpshooter/Lightning Bolt/Fire/STP/Cursed Scroll/Darkblast it off during your end step and then swing away?

Also, have you tried four Trolls in the instances you can't get a Survival? Troll + Worship = Plastico Fantastico. Which is a term I just made up. Caffiene is good.:cool:

MattH

06-07-2006, 04:14 PM

Fog Frog is a near-lock when you have a Vial at one counter. Otherwise it's not, except against Actual Stompy and maybe Angel Stompy, which has to be lucky enough to get one of its four StPs before you take over.

iOWN

06-07-2006, 05:44 PM

Yes, I'll definitely use Enlightened Tutors (as I've found in goldfished games it is quite a problem when you don't draw survival.)

-2 Worship
-2 Confinement
+4 Tutors

Maybe if it had more of a GW Beatdown shell it would be better? I'll just drop the excess toolbox creatures for more meat.

-1 Kami
-1 Viridian Zealot
-1 True Believer
-1 Squee
-1 Valor (?)
+ 3 Loxodon Hierarch (I personally don't see these as a must.)
+ 2 Eternal Witness

-1 Brushhopper
+1 Ascetic

(-2 Mongoose, +2 Ascetic instead?)

Or, should I just up the Orangutan count? When you have enough ways to get rid of the Needle, it becomes less of a problem.

Tacosnape

06-07-2006, 10:53 PM

Or, should I just up the Orangutan count? When you have enough ways to get rid of the Needle, it becomes less of a problem.

You could run a single copy of Aura Shards. Survival has the creature base, and you're running Enlightened Tutor.

Super_Oscar_the_Great

06-07-2006, 11:07 PM

Maybe if it had more of a GW Beatdown shell it would be better? I'll just drop the excess toolbox creatures for more meat.

-1 Kami
-1 Viridian Zealot
-1 True Believer
-1 Squee
-1 Valor (?)
+ 3 Loxodon Hierarch (I personally don't see these as a must.)
+ 2 Eternal Witness

-1 Brushhopper
+1 Ascetic

(-2 Mongoose, +2 Ascetic instead?)

Or, should I just up the Orangutan count? When you have enough ways to get rid of the Needle, it becomes less of a problem.

You can't possibly get rid of Squee! Hes an automatic in, in a suvival deck.
Also, I have a GW Survival deck running 4 maindeck Glowrider and 4 Maindeck Mother of Runes. The Glowrider helps with any non-aggro matchups and Swords and Survival are only affected for you. But im not running enlightened tutors. Mother of runes is just an all around awsome card. It helps the Frog Genesis lock and also helps when you don't get survival.

bigredmeanie

06-08-2006, 10:04 AM

Actually building a GW beatdown shell with things like Confinement to do otherwise is where it's all at. Hybred Survival decks are going to be the future.

Heirarch is better than Baloth, and in a deck like this one his regeneration ability makes it difficult for your opponent to ever get ahead in combat. Also, I would run 1 Mystic Enforcer, mostly because it's on color and it flies.

p.s. 4 ETutors is probably too many, 3 is best.

Watcher487

06-08-2006, 10:25 AM

You can't possibly get rid of Squee! Hes an automatic in, in a suvival deck.
Also, I have a GW Survival deck running 4 maindeck Glowrider and 4 Maindeck Mother of Runes. The Glowrider helps with any non-aggro matchups and Swords and Survival are only affected for you. But im not running enlightened tutors. Mother of runes is just an all around awsome card. It helps the Frog Genesis lock and also helps when you don't get survival.

Squee is still in the deck as a 2-of which is about spot on for a deck running Brushhoppers.

Glowrider is probably the wrong card to add to the deck considering all of the non-creature utility that he is running. I would suggest running them in the board while taking out the Survival's against Thresh.

Aether Vial is probably better than Mother of Runes for the Frog-Fog Lock, since the Vial can be used for dropping threats while you Survival for them, Mother though can make it possible to punch through damage vs Aggro and make Combo a little better for you.

While RG/SA has Burning Wish to get all of the right answers, WG Survival has Enlightened Tutor to get all of it's answers as well. As Meanie said this should be moved more towards the Survival Advantage shell w/ Enlightened Tutor targets. (Seal of Cleansing, Worship, Survival and Confindment.)

iOWN

06-08-2006, 12:32 PM

No, I think 4 Tutors is good. I tried it out, and there was never a time where I wasn't happy to see.

So right now, the deck looks like this.

// Lands
6 [IA] Forest (1)
4 [MM] Plains (1)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [R] Savannah

// Creatures
2 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
1 [JU] Genesis
1 [PY] Spore Frog
3 [JU] Anurid Brushhopper
1 [ON] True Believer
4 [MI] Wall of Roots
1 [VI] Uktabi Orangutan
1 [US] Monk Realist
1 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
2 [MR] Troll Ascetic
2 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
3 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
2 [FD] Eternal Witness

// Spells
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
1 [US] Worship
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
1 [JU] Solitary Confinement
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ON] True Believer
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [OD] Karmic Justice
SB: 1 [MR] Rule of Law
SB: 1 [NE] Seal of Cleansing

The board still isn't finished, so Glowrider may get a place there for now.

Would Supression Field be any good in SB? It doesn't work well with Survival, but it stops Life, and it may do good when you side Survival out.

Parcher

06-08-2006, 12:49 PM

This deck actually looks really good. A much more defensive version than most, and fairly innovative.

I think that the land count may be a little light for a Survival deck. Chrome Mox as your only accellerant besides Wall of Roots could hurt if you need a 1-of creature to imprint it. This deck usually uses every mana, every turn. I think maybe just squeezing a couple more lands could help greatly.

An Idealist in the board does seem good, as you have cut the number of enchantments for Tutors. Suppression Field is actually sideboarded in against Survival, so I can't see it being advantageous.

The one glaring need is a finisher. You don't have the speed or removal of other versions, so I think a single Mystic Enforcer would give the size, and most importantly, the evasion you may need to end stalled games.

I'm sure once you have fiddled with the creature combinations for a while, this deck will frustrate a lot of people.:smile:

bigredmeanie

06-08-2006, 01:10 PM

I think that Basking Rotwalla will be a better 1cc slot than Nimble Mongoose. The fact that Mongoose is untargetable doesnt matter because you run Troll and Brushopper.

Chrome Mox should just become BOP or Llanowar Elves. Depends on how much White you need. Getting a turn 1 Survival is fine, but you will never have explosive starts with it because you don't run enough creatures, and your liable to miss land drops. Cut Spore Frog, Monk Realist, and True Believer and add 1 Tree of Tales to be tutored for jist in case and at least 1 more land and another mana critter. You will have a stronger mana base in addition to removing useless cards from your deck(Idealist)

@ Mystic Enforcer. Good call whish I had thought of that... oh wait.

BlindMage

06-08-2006, 01:37 PM

I'm going to pose the question that I pose for every Survival.dec. What particular advantage does this Survival deck have over the others? The only thing that jumps out at me is the Confinement, which is pretty good. Even after the revision, though, the deck still looks like you have the classic Survival problem of being terrible and random sans Survival. Enlightened Tutor does mitigate this somewhat, but by no means does it solve the problem completely. In fact, whatever consistancy you gain from ET is probably cancelled out by not having Eternal Witness to recur your Suvival/whatever. Also, in my humble opinion, the Fog-Frog Lock doesn't merit inclusion. It sounds good, but it doesn't really work against most of the decks in the format. Gro will counter, remove, needle, or mage it; Goblins with matron->sharpshooter and alpha strike you out a window, Rifter just doesn't care, and they have humility anyway; combo of any kind doesn't care; and Deadguy can darkblast, StP, or scroll it, RFG it with wretch, or just scroll you. I realize it doesn't take many slots, which leads me to my next point. I really think that in order to not flop without Survival, you need to limit the toolbox to about 6-8 cards, and that includes whatever ET tools you want, but not including 1 squee and 1 genesis (this means drop down to 2 or 3 ET). This will give you room to play beaters in 3 and 4 ofs, which is one of the things that makes RGSA good. Also, you really should play Basking Rootwalla, at least as a 3-of. He makes for some busted Survival plays, and is also good by himself (hilarious with anurid in response to StP). Finally, I strongly recommend that you play at least a few Eternal Witness. They will add much consistancy.

Now that I've gone through a laundry list you things I think you're doing wrong, I'd like to say that I actually really like this deck. I think it has potential, and I'd like to see you do well with it.

Peace

iOWN

06-08-2006, 02:39 PM

Watcher487

06-08-2006, 02:50 PM

In fact, whatever consistancy you gain from ET is probably cancelled out by not having Eternal Witness to recur your Suvival/whatever.

2 [FD] Eternal Witness
He's playing Witness.

I really think that in order to not flop without Survival, you need to limit the toolbox to about 6-8 cards, and that includes whatever ET tools you want, but not including 1 squee and 1 genesis (this means drop down to 2 or 3 ET). This will give you room to play beaters in 3 and 4 ofs, which is one of the things that makes RGSA good.

Now I have proved that you can run a sizable toolbox in Survival before (Big Arse 2). RGSA is usually running between 8-16 tools. (Survival, Burning Wish, Sharpshooter, Aether Vials, Jittes and what have you) The bigger question that I have to infer is, Why does everyone want to make every Survival Variant a RG/SA variant? Rec-Sur top4'd Lille and NDW should have top8'd at Kaddy's DLD.

Also, you really should play Basking Rootwalla, at least as a 3-of. He makes for some busted Survival plays, and is also good by himself (hilarious with anurid in response to StP).

I don't think that Rootwalla is worth the whole mana commitment that he is. Yeah I know that Basking Rootwalla is a 'free' creature, but it is still a 1/1. You need to pay 2 mana just pump up the creature. IF this was more of an Aggro build I would consider playing it, but not when you need the mana for casting creatures, regenerating Troll and using Survival.

Rant Removed. Report any specific issues you have to a Moderator. ~ Nightmare

midnightAce

06-08-2006, 03:13 PM

scrumdogg

06-08-2006, 11:08 PM

I believe one of the things to keep in mind is that Survival is NOT your game plan, it greatly facilitates your game plan as an engine peice, but the deck will still come together without Survival.

That being said, I am some what torn between Rootwalla and and the Goose. One has good interactions with Survival, and the other has nice interactions with Worship. Keeping in mind of the mana investment needed for Rootwalla, is it possible to fit 1 or even 2 Cradles in there to help facilitate mana production?

The current non-basic count of the deck is relatively low, adding 1-2 Cradle should be, technically, safe. Survival, Troll regeneration, and Witness's CC are all pretty green intensive. Genesis activation is pretty mana hungry too. This deck lacks the traditional boom of Rofellos, so would the Cradles be a substitution and push the deck through midgame?

Cradles are dangerous on several levels - A) you MUST have critters in play for them to be of any use & once you have critters, your deck should already be functioning (the familiar SotF Catch-22) B) Cradle without SotF (or with a Needled SotF) can be a dangerous thing as the mana is non-negotiable. Admittedly, a build like this would have a decent number of non-SotF mana-sinks, but you can't rely on that. C) Wasteland...especially recurring Wastelands...and Wasteland sees a decent amount of play...

This looks like an interesting idea, sacrificing the speed of red for the lockdown & utility of white (PS, an Enlightened Tutor build should always have at least 1x Seal of Cleansing MD & as many Witnesses as you can cram to get maximum mileage out of all your silver bullets). Try the Hierarchs & a Mystic Enforcer, you'll be pleased, especially with Genesis....

bigredmeanie

06-09-2006, 11:49 AM

@Parcher: Yes, now I have played against goblins, got a Worship down, but was stuck without any creature to kill them and evade their gobs. Mystic Enforcer might work, except is vulnerable to all kinds of removal. I'm trying to find a creature that flies and has Wolverine bones, something along the lines of an Ascetic with wings. (Or should I try to fit Glory in for an easy beatdown?)

@bigredmeanie: I think you thought Realist was Idealist? It kills enchantments, and is the only MD thing to do so. I will cut Spore Frog for a Tree of Tales (great idea), but I don't think a lone mana critter will do much.

@BlindMage: Well, I really don't like the thought of cutting any ET's. The only other toolbox cards I see that I can cut would be Grave Troll, True Believer which I really want to keep since combo hurts, and Spore Frog which has been cut. What I will do, is take off the Grave Troll (bringing Toolbox count to around eight, I believe) and the two Mongeese to add 3 Rootwalla's. Then I think there are not enough untargettables for Worship, so I will take off a Brushhopper/Hierarch for another Troll.

-1 Spore Frog
+1 Tree of Tales

-2 Mongoose
-1 Golgari Grave-Troll
+3 Basking Rootwalla

-1 Brushhopper/Hierarch
+1 Troll Ascetic

(+1 Magical Finisher)

Actually I said to take out Chrome Mox and add 4 mana dorks and the cut Realist for the 5th. You don't have much of a mana curve, as it is you go from 0-3 You are going to have problems w/o Survival I promise. The deck will be inconsistant. You have too many 1-ofs in addition to a weak manabase. I'm attempting to cut useless cards like REALIST and strengthen your non-survival game plan. BTW there is onyl 1 enchantment you care about and Realist can't kill it, so I say cut it.

Also, the reason I suggested cutting Mongoose and adding Rootwalla is because of synergy. Rootwalla has 10 times better synergy with this deck, and that's what it's all about.

Please keep the private messages in their proper place. ~ Nightmare

Mirrislegend

06-09-2006, 12:49 PM

You could run a single copy of Aura Shards. Survival has the creature base, and you're running Enlightened Tutor.

Indeed. Aura Shards is run in almost every Vintage deck that has a significant number of creatures and some vested interest in Green and White... there is a reason why they do that :tongue:

EDIT 1:
btw, iOWN, I really like this concept. It is refreshingly original. Also, it has the potential to follow in successful Survival history (being able to play without SotF), as the deck runs the best colors for generally useful creatures ever. Speaking of which, what about Mother of Runes? It says "play this ftw" about as much as Hierarch vs red decks, but comes down earlier and is more in line with the deck's curve.

EDIT 2:
If I were to build this deck, it would look something like this.

Surviving in Alcatraz
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
8 Forest
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Plains
2 Brushland

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wall of Roots
3 Mother of Runes
1 Spore Frog
1 Kami of False Hope
2 Eternal Witness
2 Troll Ascetic
2 Mystic Enforcer
3 Squee
1 Genesis

4 StP
4 SotF
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Worship
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Aura Shards

SB: (most of this is crap. good stuff has justifications)
3 Pithing Needle (generally useful)
3 Karmic Justice (pwns Deadguy, which I hate in general)
1 Aura Shards
1 Eternal Witness
2 Rule of Law
2 City of Solitude
2 Spore Frog (anti-aggro package)
1 Kami of False Hope (anti-aggro package)

bigredmeanie

06-09-2006, 02:03 PM

Surviving in Alcatraz
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
8 Forest
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Plains
2 Brushland

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wall of Roots
3 Mother of Runes
1 Spore Frog
1 Kami of False Hope
2 Eternal Witness
2 Troll Ascetic
2 Mystic Enforcer
3 Squee
1 Genesis

4 StP
4 SotF
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Worship
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Aura Shards

No Heirarch? He is the main reason to run straight GW

Phantom

06-09-2006, 02:11 PM

I am by no means a survival expert, so feel free to smack me around, but I have some thoughts:

1) I was wondering if Living Wish could work here. At first it seems like too much of a tempo hit, but RG runs Burning Wish. It would allow you to move some of your more shall we say abrasive top decks to the board (Spore Frog, Kami, Genisis, Squee). You could run a solid creature base in the main, and your toolbox in the board. There are also a few lands that could find there way in the board. The Tabernacle is great vs gro and Goblins, Gaes Cradle could be there when you need it, and even wasteland is useful when you can survival witnesses out.

2) I'm not crazy about Mother of Ruins at all. She has to live to tap, the other creature has to live to attack, and they have to want to block it to make a difference. I just think running solid creatures is enough. Plus, way too many decks are running board sweepers which hurt us enough. I'd rather a useful on it's own creature in her spot.

3) Glad to see Golgari Grave-Troll gone, but i can't believe the Mongeese left! And Anurid Brushhopper! Those were my two favorites. Also, why on earth are the mana creatures Birds? We don't need WW, and there should be no situation where we can't get one white from our manabase. Assuming Living Wish, I would rebuild the creature base as so:

4 Llanowar Elves
4 Wall of Roots
3 Nimble Mongoose
2 Eternal Witness
1 Mystic Enforcer
1 Squee
2 Anurid Brushhopper
2 Troll Ascetic

4) I'm not sold on Aura Shards. First, it's slow. It comes down turn 2-3, and usually gives them a turn to remove it before you can use it (or you have to wait another few turns to drop it with a creature). I love the reusability, but that's only a big deal with Survial out b/c you will have dropped a few creatures already and won't be topdecking a ton, and Survial gives Seal of Cleansing reusablilty through Eternal Witness. So, in the end I think I'd rather have the speed and reliability of Seal of Cleansing.

5) At the risk of making the deck too "toolboxy", it might not be a bad idea to have a Tutorable creature removal like Pacifism (first one I thought of). Otherwise problem creatures like Deadguys Hypy's might be a real pain if we don't draw StP.

iOWN

06-09-2006, 03:23 PM

I'm attempting to cut useless cards like REALIST and strengthen your non-survival game plan. BTW there is onyl 1 enchantment you care about and Realist can't kill it, so I say cut it.

(Humility?)

How about Moat, Confinement, or Worship? You probably want to be able to get rid of those. I am however considering thinking dropping both Realist and Orangutan to add one Zealot, but it can be Pithed (if they draw a second needle) and I won't be able to do anything.

I'll try out Aura Shards, but I'm not sure if there would ever be a situation where I would want to tutor for it over one of the other Enchantments. Another card I am considering is Sterling Grove, as it protects Survival or Confinement and also can tutor for something else.

Right now my list looks like this:

// Lands
6 [IA] Forest (1)
4 [MM] Plains (1)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [R] Savannah
1 [MR] Tree of Tales

// Creatures
4 [MI] Wall of Roots
3 [MR] Troll Ascetic
3 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
2 [JU] Anurid Brushhopper
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
2 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
2 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
1 [JU] Genesis
1 [ON] True Believer
1 [VI] Uktabi Orangutan
1 [US] Monk Realist
1 [OD] Mystic Enforcer

// Spells
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
1 [US] Worship
1 [JU] Solitary Confinement

I think Eternal Dragon may be better as a 'finisher' since it can come back without Genesis, it functions without Survival, and if I have Confinement out it can find me a new land each turn.

bigredmeanie

06-09-2006, 03:29 PM

(Humility?)

How about Moat, Confinement, or Worship? You probably want to be able to get rid of those. I am however considering thinking dropping both Realist and Orangutan to add one Zealot, but it can be Pithed (if they draw a second needle) and I won't be able to do anything.

Good guess on Humility. As for Moat, Confinement, or Worship I can give you that, but I bring up the opposing argument in that there are little to no decks that play any of those cards, and besides you would board Naturalize/DE to deal with Humility g2/3 as well as the rest of those enchantments you're scared of.

Bargoth

06-11-2006, 05:10 PM

Why Chrome Mox over Birds of Paradise?

The only real reason I could see is for turn one Survival. Which is good, but doesn't seem like it is all that crucial. In most decks using Chrome Mox it does so that they are sacrificing a more or less inconsequential card in order to really accellerate their game plan. But in a creature based deck it seems like the card disadvantage of Chrome Mox is really rough, especially when most of your cards that would in theory remove would be creatures, which seem important to your strategy. Unlike the use of Chrome Mox in say combo decks and Angel Stompy that could remove extra cantrips and un-needed tithes/disenchants. Getting to play Survival turn one does allow you to aviod the most common answers to it if you are on the play, but on the draw most answers to early game Survivals would be effective anyway (Duress, Therapy, Daze, and Disenchant/Naturalize could both be used before you could untap).

Additionally, Birds obviously give you access to your off color, without removing Hierarchs and Brushoppers from your opening hand. They can be pitched to Survival late game, where Chrome Mox is an absolutely horrible draw in anything but the first two turns. And from time to time they can come in handy buying a turn chumping Mystic Enforcers or Lackeys and the like.

All of you're 3 mana spells would be playable turn two with either choice. The only real downside to Birds is that they are easier to take out and will catch the removal that decks pack these days for Lackey. But I feel like in most cases this is still a better situation then removing one of your threats from your opening hand, as you are trading one for one, as opposed to initially putting yourself down one card.

I would probably drop one Enlightened Tutor in favor of another creature as well, maybe another Eternal Witness, since you really only have a couple Tutor targets. And Witness can get both the targets and the tutors themselves back. With 3 Tutor and 4 Survival you should rarely run into trouble getting one, and having another creature is a better mid/late game draw then Enlightened Tutor. I would probably drop the Realist as well, there aren't enough threatening enchantments being played to devote a toolbox slot to it, in most metas anyway; maybe try fitting in a Loaming Shamen since he is pretty strong at killing graveyard based combos that take a turn or two to set up, can be strong against Thresh, and is a solid attacker at the worst. Potentially with testing it might be a good plan to lower the Plains count just cause Survival decks generally want as much green producers as possible and nothing in your deck requires more than one white, you would probably benefit from a few less plains and few more forests.

Other than that the deck looks pretty strong, it seems like another solid option for those looking to go the Survival route.

-Bargoth

Anusien

06-11-2006, 05:23 PM

I have a few questions.

1) There are a bunch of other Solitary Confinement builds, so what makes this one superior? It seems like this has a harder time establishing a lock than a build with blue for card draw , or with Life from the Loam.

2) What is your backup plan? It seems like if your opponent can remove Confinements, you just have inefficient beaters.

3) How do you beat combo? You're in the wrong colors for efficient disruption, and Reset High Tide is going to rip you apart. You might be too slow to beat Goblins too, and I second the thing about Spore Frog sucking.

iOWN

06-12-2006, 07:59 PM

I really prefer Chrome Mox over Birds because (yes, partly it has 'haste' and lets a turn one Survival, leaving three open mana the next turn, but also because) it is not so vulnerable to removal. StP hits Birds for 0, Lightning Bolt and all kinds of burn get rid of it, even darkblast... but Mox on the other hand, is only vulnerable to Artifact destruction which is much less common.

I have a few questions.

1) There are a bunch of other Solitary Confinement builds, so what makes this one superior? It seems like this has a harder time establishing a lock than a build with blue for card draw , or with Life from the Loam.

2) What is your backup plan? It seems like if your opponent can remove Confinements, you just have inefficient beaters.

3) How do you beat combo? You're in the wrong colors for efficient disruption, and Reset High Tide is going to rip you apart. You might be too slow to beat Goblins too, and I second the thing about Spore Frog sucking.

1) I never said it was superior, but all you need to establish a lock is Survival and Confinement (or any combination of those and Enlightened Tutor). Once you have Survival, you can just fetch out your two Squees, drop out Confinement, and you're set.

2) It does not need to go the confinement route. That is a strong, solid way to win, but the deck also can easily go Survival/Beatdown. I also had mentioned Sterling Grove as an option if they have removal.

3) This is true, Combo is tough, and Goblins is a bad match-up. (And it has been established that Spore Frog was useless.) Another note -- White is no less of the wrong color for disruption than red is.

Basically, the plan is to get True Believer through Survival, or to use the Confinement (or Worship) lock to stop them. That is enough to stop any form of Monoblack Tendrils, but any blue splash or High Tide can Chain/Echoing Truth them back. I am still working on these matches.

iOWN

06-17-2006, 09:16 PM

// Lands
6 [IA] Forest (1)
4 [MM] Plains (1)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [R] Savannah
1 [MR] Tree of Tales

// Creatures
1 [JU] Genesis
2 [JU] Anurid Brushhopper
1 [ON] True Believer
4 [MI] Wall of Roots
1 [VI] Uktabi Orangutan
1 [US] Monk Realist
3 [MR] Troll Ascetic
2 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
3 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
2 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
1 [US] Worship
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
1 [JU] Solitary Confinement
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ON] True Believer
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [OD] Karmic Justice
SB: 1 [MR] Rule of Law
SB: 1 [NE] Seal of Cleansing
SB: 1 [OD] Ground Seal
SB: 1 [IN] Aura Shards
SB: 1 [PY] Mageta The Lion
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [DIS] Loaming Shaman
SB: 2 [LE] Glowrider
SB: 1 [CH] Tormod's Crypt

It seems pretty polished right now, but the one card standing out, like 'wtf?', is Mageta in the sideboard. I can't find a decent Sweeper!

I've found Dragon 10x more useful than Enforcer, especially with Confinement out.

And still I have only done a modest amount of testing, but I think I can put up some fairly accurate match-ups -

(MonoRed) Goblins

Preboard - 60/40 - You have a slight advantage preboard, mainly because they have no enchantment removal. This means they kill you around turn 3-5, while you are capable of getting a Confinement lock (fairly consistently, counting out bad luck) turn 3-4.

Postboard - This depends if they sideboard Anarchy. If they do, it goes to about 40/60, otherwise stays the same.

Sideboard: There is not much in your sideboard for this match.

-1 Monk Realist
+1 Engineered Explosives

(-1 Uktabi Orangutan)
(+1 Mageta The Lion/Sweeper)

Monk Realist is useless, but you can hit Explosives for 1 and 2, which are pretty large portion of their deck. (Uktabi Orangutan sometimes can only hit Vial, so sometimes a Sweeper is much more effective. But, if they board Needle, Orangutan always helps.)

Deadguy Ale

Preboard - 35/65 - Deadguy is a fairly tough match first game; they have the right discard to make you go crazy enough, plus Vindicate which can take either your resources, or an Enchantment you wanted.

Postboard - 55/45 - With Karmic Justice, you can be golden. A big part of the core of their deck scraps off your resources, and this fires right back.

Sideboard:

-1 Realist
+1 Karmic Justice

You also may want to take in the extra Believers, because all of the discard is targeted.

Threshold

Preboard - 75/25 - This is a good first game. All they have in their defense are a few counterspells, and creature removal really doesn't scratch a bit. Beatdown is an easy route to go in this match.

Postboard - 60/40 - They've got Pithing, taking out your Survival strategy, but it doesn't really matter much. Going beatdown is still a possibility, just less efficient than before.

Sideboard:

-1 Realist
-1 True Believer
+1 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Loaming Shaman

(-1 Orangutan)
(-1 Confinement)
(+2 Glowrider)

Realist and Believer do nothing in this matchup, but Graveyard Hate does. (Orangutan isn't really needed, even if they get Needle, you will not usually draw it. Confinement is worse than Worship in this match. Glowrider, on the other hand, can hurt them MUCH more than it hurts you.)

Solidarity I need to test against a little more, and I have not ever gotten a match against Rifter.

Basically from what I see, the (meanie?) was right, that Realist isn't really useful. I am thinking of the dropping both Monkey and Monk for a Zealot, or even Indrik Stomphowler.

Phantom

06-17-2006, 10:54 PM

Deadguy Ale

Preboard - 35/65 - Deadguy is a fairly tough match first game; they have the right discard to make you go crazy enough, plus Vindicate which can take either your resources, or an Enchantment you wanted.

Postboard - 55/45 - With Karmic Justice, you can be golden. A big part of the core of their deck scraps off your resources, and this fires right back.

Sideboard:

-1 Realist
+1 Karmic Justice

I don't see how this matchup is getting any better post board. They are bringing in Pithing Needle, Serenity/Disenchant, and perhaps Darkblast/Perish. One Karmic Justice ain't gonna do crap against Deadguy. They'll either:

a) Not let you get enough mana to cast it, or only after the beatdown is in effect.
b) Make you discard it or the E tutors with one of their 10 discard spells.
c) Vindicate it.
d) Disenchant it.
e) Remove it from the game after it goes to the yard so there are no Witness tricks.

Factoring all that in, explain to me how this one card swings the matchup from very unfavorable to slightly favorable?

P.S. Like the deck.

iOWN

06-18-2006, 10:18 AM

I don't see how this matchup is getting any better post board. They are bringing in Pithing Needle, Serenity/Disenchant, and perhaps Darkblast/Perish. One Karmic Justice ain't gonna do crap against Deadguy. They'll either:

a) Not let you get enough mana to cast it, or only after the beatdown is in effect.
b) Make you discard it or the E tutors with one of their 10 discard spells.
c) Vindicate it.
d) Disenchant it.
e) Remove it from the game after it goes to the yard so there are no Witness tricks.

Factoring all that in, explain to me how this one card swings the matchup from very unfavorable to slightly favorable?

P.S. Like the deck.

You are half right about the things they can do postboard, and another thing I didn't mention was that maindeck Wretch can usually stop you from getting a lock (plus Vindicate any enchantment).

A) This was the main problem that I had said. Karmic Justice stops them, but yes, they can Disenchant/Vindicate it. I had also talked about Sterling Grove, which I forgot to add to the sideboard. Sure, 'it doesn't do crap', but holds your resources together for a couple turns allowing you to settle, and that's what it is meant to do.

B) So you'll Tutor in response, or play survival first turn. This problem isn't as bad.

They are all still problems, but that's why it is still 45% on their side. More of the time do you get what you wanted than them, but they can still mess you up. Anything can happen, but Justice is still really effective against Deadguy no matter.

I'd say the Vindicates are the main problem in the second game, so I'll probably take out a SB'd Believer for a Sterling Grove.

Phantom

06-18-2006, 06:19 PM

Compost is an incredible card to bring in against them.

iOWN

06-18-2006, 07:00 PM

Nice, I'll definitely stick one of those in the sideboard. Right now, it looks like this:

2 Pithing Needle
2 Glowrider
1 True Believer
1 Sterling Grove
1 Karmic Justice
1 Rule of Law
1 Ground Seal
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Aura Shards
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Mageta The Lion

The cards that want most to be taken out are the second Needle, the second Glowrider, True Believer, Ground Seal, and Mageta. I think Mageta shouldn't be taken out except for a sweeper, and both Needle and Glowrider work well in double. Ground Seal is helpful, except it nullifies Genesis. True Believer seems useless in both MD and SB?

So to me, it's really between Seal and Believer.

Another card I looked into was Parallax Wave, since it interacts nicely with the CiP effects and also can open up room for you to beat down for a turn.

iOWN

06-20-2006, 06:33 PM

I just stuck Parallax Wave on to the maindeck, making it 61 cards. And, the card is absolutely nuts. Doing the return-y thing with Witness, and gaining mad amounts of life with Hierarch and keeping up to four of their creatures out, I often search for it over Confinement.

I took out the second Needle for the Compost, basically because I'm a cheap kid and don't have that much money to blow. Otherwise Believer would probably leave the sideboard. Another thing to do would be to put Seal of Cleansing maindeck, Believer and Compost sideboard. (So zero True Believers in MD.)

I also played against Rifter and the match was unbelievably good, I usually finished with life well over 20. That match is basically 100/0 preboard AND postboard, but just to be fair I'll say 95/5 since you can always have a chance of losing.

I didn't do good analysis for the sideboarding before, so I'll just give general ideas now.

Deadguy - Compost, Karmic Justice, and Sterling Grove should all come out on this one; True Believer, Ground Seal, Pithing Needle, and Rule of Law are all other possibilities.

Rifter - Aura Shards and Seal of Cleansing, since Aura Shards can destroy them. A possibility is Pithing Needle, so you can stop Eternal Dragon (their only other win condition) from doing anything.

Solidarity - Glowrider, True Believer, and Rule of Law.

Goblins - Engineered Explosives, and Mageta/Sweeper (HELP!).

Gro - Tormod's Crypt, Loaming Shaman, and possibly SoC if they run Worship.

By now the deck barely relies on anything. I keep my opening hand every time unless it lacks land/nonland cards, and the beatdown strategy is becoming more effective. With the addition of PWave, it now has three locks, and the match ups against top tier are getting better and better. This deck has really come along...

iOWN

08-03-2006, 08:39 AM

Sorry for my third post in a row, but I need some help now. I'm bringing this deck to GenCon, and I need to tune it up quickly.

// Lands
6 [IA] Forest (1)
4 [MM] Plains (1)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [R] Savannah
1 [MR] Tree of Tales

// Creatures
1 [JU] Genesis
2 [JU] Anurid Brushhopper
1 [ON] True Believer
4 [MI] Wall of Roots
1 [VI] Uktabi Orangutan
1 [US] Monk Realist
3 [MR] Troll Ascetic
2 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
3 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
2 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
1 [US] Worship
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
1 [JU] Solitary Confinement
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
1 [NE] Parallax Wave

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [OD] Karmic Justice
SB: 1 [MR] Rule of Law
SB: 1 [NE] Seal of Cleansing
SB: 1 [PY] Mageta The Lion
SB: 1 [UD] Compost
SB: 1 [IN] Sterling Grove
SB: 1 [IN] Aura Shards
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [LE] Glowrider
SB: 1 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [DIS] Loaming Shaman
SB: 1 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 [ON] Words of Wilding

Now there are some things I need to hurry up and decide on.

Powder Keg > Mageta, right?

Should Seal of Cleansing be maindeck rather than True Believer?

Umezawa's Jitte seems great against Goblins, should it be maindeck? How should I fit it in.

Should Glory be added? It makes an beatdown much more possible, and when you have a confinement lock or something, this is a lot easier than piling up your lands until you can play the Dragon.

Grollub

08-03-2006, 03:11 PM

Considered Sylvan Safekeeper to compliment True Believer/Glow Riders against combo decks? (it pulls double duty against removal) Just a thought...

Definately an interesting deck. :)

iOWN

08-03-2006, 04:47 PM

Considered Sylvan Safekeeper to compliment True Believer/Glow Riders against combo decks? (it pulls double duty against removal) Just a thought...

Definately an interesting deck. :)

Nice, I never thought of that. Though, I just realized, wouldn't Glory function identically? Glory seems better now anyways, and I'm adding it in. (or, Sylvan Safekeeper also does a good job of stacking, like if Solidarity tries to Stifle it?) Hopefully this idea will improve the solidarity match-up...

I've also tried out another thing -- Rofellos. I ignored it the whole time, choosing Wall of Roots... over mana critters. I think this card will give the deck the explosiveness it lacks.

Please, feedback would really be appreciated. I need it perfect for GenCon. :smile:

Goblin Snowman

08-03-2006, 06:26 PM

Mageta/Sweeper (HELP!).

You could try False Prophet, with the problem that they can just wait until they have lethel and kill you around it. But he does act as a standing Fog (Swords being ignored).

iOWN

08-04-2006, 03:19 PM

You could try False Prophet, with the problem that they can just wait until they have lethel and kill you around it. But he does act as a standing Fog (Swords being ignored).

I'm not sure about that one; since they can wait until they have lethal damage, and you have no way yourself to kill it off, it might not work so well.

Goblin Snowman

08-04-2006, 08:10 PM

I'm not sure about that one; since they can wait until they have lethal damage, and you have no way yourself to kill it off, it might not work so well.

I already said that. What he does do is (in effect) prevent them from attacki8ng, allowing you to build up your own board position. But yes, he is very subpar.

iOWN

08-04-2006, 10:15 PM

I already said that. What he does do is (in effect) prevent them from attacki8ng, allowing you to build up your own board position. But yes, he is very subpar.

But unfortunately this deck won't generate creatures out nearly as fast as goblins will, so I kind of think that False Prophet is out of the picture. I'll have to think about it. (Thanks for the suggestion.)

Another last second thought I've had is to just include 1 artifact creature - I've actually found myself in situations where I've had Survival and no creatures to pitch, and if I run one artifact critter he can also be searched for with a Tutor. Maybe Masticore as a one-of? He's a nice strong creature, interacts with squee, and is a house vs. Gobbos.

MoogleConspiracy

08-05-2006, 07:09 AM

iOWN

08-05-2006, 08:37 AM

I had a question on how you're playing the Rifter Matchup. You say that you were going a nice "100/0" versus Rifter preboard and I when I played it, it seemed more difficult than that. I seemed to be doing well and racing, until they slap down a humility, which tremendously slows the deck down until they either burn your creatures off or remove them by slick blocking w/ DoJ. Perhaps I'm not playing the deck correctly, but it seemed like I got mutilated by them, especially when the throw down the turn 4 humility. How do you play that match?

Also, it seemed like when I was playing the deck I had problems with Angels or other big fat flying creatures. The usual answers we have for them are usually StP, Confinement, Worship, P. Wave (on occasions), and trying the race w/ recycling hierarchs. It probably would've been easier, had I not seen a meancing Grim on the other side waiting to ping my Rofellos. But since I drew 1 E. Tutor, no StP, and no other enchantments (not to mention 3 lands), maybe it was just my luck, but I slowly died after Angel came into play (shortly, after followed by a 2nd one). So, that got me thinking, wouldn't Angel Stompy be a difficult matchup, as the come out quickly with powerful angels that are difficult to handle if we lack the correct tools. It's something to think about.

Another qualm I had with the deck was that I often wanted to recycle my Sex Monkey, or E. Witness but had no way to get it into the yard. Could this be a problem that should be fixed? I think it would've won me the game, I doubt my opponent would've found another disenchant (I already had saw 2 and topdecked one right after I land confinement...meh).

Overall though, a blast, I think the decks power might be in it's power to wreck threshold, though I haven't played that match yet. It was an awesomely fun deck to play, Cheers!

First off, thanks for testing it out. :)

Now the answer to the first question is that it depends on the deck. Some Rifter decks are well built and prepared. Many of them, however, may be well built, but are not prepared well. Against a prepared deck the match is still greatly in your favor, but not as great (70-85%). I've still never lost a game in my testing.

Before Humility comes down you want to just try to get your top quality creatures down; in this match-up, Troll is absolutely amazing and is barely vulnerable to any removal (except for the rare Wing Shards), Mongoose is also useful. If you can be fast enough, fetch out some Hierarchs to prepare for late game. If they ever try to play a Lightning Rift, get your Realist/Zealot and destroy it right away.

You should probably maindeck Seal of Cleansing (it wasn't in my old lists, but I've tacked it on MD). If you are able to get it vs. Rifter, you can just get rid of the Humility and continue on.

When they drop Humility and they have no threats out (and haven't S + D'd you), just try to survival out all your cheap creatures like Mongeese and Walls, and start swinging a little. Once they do get a Rift, however, you should get some protection if you can't win soon. Solitary Confinement lock them. Many builds don't maindeck enchantment hate and will concede right there. Even if they do (one or two disenchants or Orim's Thunder, probably) it will take a little while for them to draw it, and you have even more time to be getting each one of your creatures out. If you are ever in this situation it is possible that you'll lose Game One, but postboard should go better with your Enchantment Hate coming in.

I haven't gotten much testing in against AS, but it doesn't seem to be that bad (although it may have just been that I hadn't gotten bad luck). You have some pretty big creatures that can scare away the Weenies, but you should probably go for Trolls again and maybe Brushhopper in case of StPs (and try Parallax Wave out in this match). You mentioned that you had an Enlightened Tutor (did you have a Survival out?), and you could have either searched for your Artifact Land, fetched the Survival, try out the Masticore, or, if you had survival out, just fetch Hierarchs and mana-producers. Definitely try to get Orangutan; you'll probably want an answer for any Equipment. I'm sorry that I can't offer you any good advice for this.

What match was this in - Rifter? In most games you can just swing/chump with the Witness until they kill it, but if you were not able to do this, there are really no possible sacrifice outlets so you might want to try out just more Witnesses in your build. If you run Viridian Zealot over Monkey it gives the slight drawback of one mana, but also the advantage of being able to recycle it.

Thanks for bringing these things up -- I'll have to try to play against Angel Stompy a little more.

Al-ucard

08-07-2006, 05:15 AM

I always played survival decks in legacy and a friend of mine play with Wombat. Because of this I always maindeck 1 Seal of Cleansing in every survival deck that have Enlightened Tutor... If you don't Humility = Game lost.

iOWN

08-12-2006, 10:48 AM

Yuck. 33rd is not nearly as well as I would have liked to do, but getting paired against your worst match-up twice is unavoidable. Here's the list I brought:

6 Forest
4 Plains
4 Savannah
4 Heath
1 Tree of Tales

4 SotF
4 Chrome Mox
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 StP
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Parallax Wave

3 Hierarch
3 Wall of Roots
1 Rofellos
3 Troll Ascetic
2 Brushhopper
2 Eternal Witness
2 Squee
1 Sex Monkey
1 Realist
1 Genesis
1 Glory
2 Mongoose

SB
1 Masticore
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Glowrider
1 True Believer
1 Rule of Law
1 Sterling Grove
1 Worship
1 Compost
1 Karmic Justice
1 Needle
1 Aura of Silence
1 Aura Shards
1 Crypt
1 Loaming Shaman

And I took notes for a little report:

Round One vs Bryan Fischer with Angel Stompy.

Game One - He starts out strong with a Priest and later on an Angel. I end up getting a Confinement Lock on him and he seems to not draw one of his Seals/Disenchants so I keep on beating with Hierarchs for a couple turns and win the first game.

Game Two - He gets an early Angel and gets me down to low life, but I topdeck a Swords and remove it. I continuously draw some 3-Drops and I'm able to beat down on his only creatures (two Mothers) to his eventual death. (He doesn't draw any business, Witness grabs me back my StP.)

1-0

Round Two vs Tyson Swigart with Faerie Stompy.

Game One - I get a turn three Survival/Confinement, but he uses Needles my Survival before I can fetch out a Squee. He follows up with an Efreet, then a SoFI, and I lose.

Sideboard - I didn't quite know what to sideboard because this matchup was untested, but I took out Realist for an Aura Shards.

Game Two - I start out with Savannah + Mox. He has never seen my deck before, and screws his sideboard. He drops a Seat of the Synod first turn, and I thank god he didn't get a money hand. Second Turn I drop an Orangutan to hit his land. His only other mana is colorless, and I kill him with a Hierarch and the Monkey.

He sideboards in some Winter Orb, thinking it will hurt me.

Game Three - He starts off with a turn two Island, Island ---> Orb. I play Rofellos and some more lands to bring in a ton of fatties (Trolls, Brushhoppers, and Hierarchs) and overpower him.

2-0

Round Three vs Jason with Solidarity.

This is my worst match-up, I don't expect much.

Game One - I keep a hand of Mana, Troll, and Enlightened Tutor because that is decent versus most decks. Unfortunately I find out he is playing Solidarity, and lose soon after.

Sideboard - -4 StP, -1 Parallax Wave, +2 Glowrider, +1 True Believer, +1 Rule of Law, +1 Sterling Grove.

Game Two - I get all lands first hand and take a mulligan. Second hand has none, with 5 cards it's no better, so I start the game with four cards. Third turn I resolve a Glowrider and some more creatures come out, and I'm able to get him down to 6 Life, but as the deadly blow comes in he goes off with six lands. High Tide - Twincast, the last Island makes 3 and he Reset, then continues making massive amounts of mana with some Turnabouts, to stroke me for 59.

2-1

Round Four vs ? with Goblins w/ White Splash.

Game One - I start out with turn one Enlightened Tutor, turn two Survival. I realize he's playing Goblins, and he seems to have an awfully slow hand. Time for my incredible misplay. Instead of Witnessing back my Tutor to get a Confinement Lock, I just beat down thinking he can't win it (wanting to hide that so he wouldn't Sideboard in Crypts or something). He blasts out with Warchief, Matron, then Ringleader via Vial, into a Lackey and a Piledriver. I wasn't prepared at all, he smashes my face.

Sideboard - -1 Realist, +1 Masticore.

Game Two - I manage the Confinement Lock, but apparently he sideboarded in 1x Disenchant. I get some Threshed Mongeese and start swinging (using Glory) while he stacks up his army. I get him down to two, but he drags the game on by swinging with everything, then using Swords to Plowshares to hit his own Piledriver racking his life up to 30-something. Time is called, and we go down to turns. No luck for me, the game ends in a draw, and the judges give him the match 1-0-1.

StP and Lightning Bolt in Goblins?? *sigh*

2-2

Round Five vs Robert Pelletier with RG/Rogue. (With Fireblast, Shock, Lavamancer, Kird Apes and Fanatics.)

Game One - He can't get around my Confinement Lock and Concedes.

Sideboard - -1 Confinement, +1 Worship.

Game Two - He starts hitting me with some Kird Apes, I get my life back up with Hierarchs, then Parallax Wave away his creatures and can kill him before they come back.

3-2 (I still have a chance going 6-2, don't I?)

Round Six - No Show = Win

4-2

Round Seven vs Matt Maurice with Solidarity.

Fuck you, god.

Game One - Nothing I can do, really. Attempt a Confinement but he goes off in response.

Sideboard - See Round Three.

Game Two - I resolve a Survival, pitch Glory to get a Believer and had enough mana to hold him in the 'lock'. He tried playing around it, but eventually conceded.

Game Three - My couple attempts at resolving a Rule of Law fail (Remand, Remand, FoW). I beat him down to 10, swing lethal but he goes off in response.

4-3 (I should have given up a while ago.)

Round Eight vs Caleb Estrada with WRB Sui.

Forgot the notes... this is off the top of my head.

Game One - We take turns hitting each other, both at 10, I get a Confinement Lock.

Game Two - I can't hold him back, I stall a little with Wave/Witness but he breaks through with some Burn and kills me.

Game Three - I keep a hand with some Hierarchs and beats. He gets me down a little, but then I play out the Hierarchs to put me back up to 17. I can't do anything at the moment, so I play down a Confinement, pitching Genesis the first time (lock!). Apparently he doesn't sideboard Graveyard Hate because Thresh is an autowin, and Shattering Spree over Disenchant, so it was a win.

5-3-0 (I asked Solidarity and Faerie Stompy to draw, but both decline.)

I pray that I'll get some prize packs, but look! The stupid tiebreakers (in the twenties to place 34 all had 15 points) place me in 33rd, one below t32'ing it! My Opponent-Match Win% was too low, probably because of the No-Show, I presume, even though my Player-Game Win% was higher than most of the others. So it goes.

I still had fun, although the t8 was really funky. :confused:

MoogleConspiracy

08-13-2006, 04:54 AM

iOWN

08-15-2006, 04:09 PM

I really like the list you have up there, it seems really strong. Too bad you didn't do better at GenCon, but still I think 33rd is nothing to scoff at. It seems like a pretty good deck and I think I'm going to assemble it as my next Legacy deck.

I was wondering a few things though. About the 4 Moxes, do you ever find yourself getting clogged with them late game or mid game and not having anything to put on them. Because they can be useless after the beginning if you don't really want to imprint anything on them and it's not like you can weld or do stuff with them. Also, how broken do find turn 1 Survival to be, cuz I mean it doesn't seem like you do something crazy (although it's probbaly still great) with it, like other survival decks. It could guarantee a 3rd turn Hierarch, which is good, but I'm not sure. I know it's still good but it's not like OMG Borken! like something like WeldSur. Just a thought.

Love the deck though =D

Sometimes I do actually get hands with multiple moxes or topdeck them, but there's really nothing you can do about it. Dropping one would throw off consistency, it's all or nothing. Chrome Mox is my favorite choice and in my opinion the best, but if you want to try out Birds or Mana Elfs, it's totally your decision. (They are, however, food for Brushhoppers 'dodge' ability.)

It can't exactly do anything 'broken' with a first turn Survival, but that play definitely gives it an advantage against Aggro. It could also drop a first turn Wall of Roots to block Lackey or Rofellos to produce five mana on turn two. Oh, and turn 2 Confinement Lock is pretty broken.

Thanks for bringing up all these points! They are still all open for discussion... :)

Updated original post with the Current List, match-ups and shit.

parallax

08-15-2006, 04:18 PM

As far as the Survival v. Rifter match-up is concerned: I have a lot of experience with Survival variants (mostly RGSA). I've found Rifter/Wombat is a very good match-up because they have few ways to deal with Genesis. Even Humility is often not enough because you still get two-three 1/1 creatures each turn. Of course, RGSA had Anger which helped immensely. Either way, Troll Ascetics are probably key here.

Hanni

08-16-2006, 12:34 AM

iOWN

10-16-2006, 06:08 PM

I don't know if anyone suggested this, but maybe Sterling Grove would be a good idea. It's a little slower than Enlightened Tutor for tutoring purposes but it does protect your Survivals and other enchantments from Disenchants and the like. Maybe 3 Enlightened Tutor and 1 Sterling Grove could be effective maindeck?

Also, if Soliditary is such a bad matchup, why not increase the amounts of Rule of Law in your sideboard? It could help.

I just keep the Grove in the sideboard. It really isn't needed maindeck, since practically no decks run enchantment hate MD, and it really needs to be fast enough. (Sterling Grove comes out turn 1-2, breaks turn 2-3, so you don't even get the target until 3-4. That's not working.)

My sideboard is really packed, and I don't want to get rid of anything. Rule of Law comes down slow, meaning it will either get countered or responded to unless you get it out the fastest possible turn. I've been trying to have an out with the Glory plan, protecting either Believer or Ichneumon Druid (if you can get 6 mana, they pretty much can't win, although its a slim chance it has happened before). Glowrider is pretty much the only thing you can do.

So anyways, Time Spiral's out and it offers a lot of cards.

Magus of the Disk - Thank you! A tutorable Disk, and although it kills Survival you can always fetch a Witness to return it. It isn't great against Goblins, but it still looks promising.

Mangara of Corondor - And now we even have removal - a tutorable Vindicate! Perhaps there would be room in the deck to fit some untappers in? It might be hard to do, but they can also untap Rofellos for massive amounts of mana.

Saffri Eriksdotter - This is an interesting card, and it works well with some of the CiP effects. Obviously some combos with it (2x + Soul Warden = Life?) but that might be to card and mana intensive, as well as the 'deck is already jammed with 61 cards' problem.

Tividar of Thorn - Oh, it's so tempting. He blasts goblins like crazy, but the card is really narrow and I would not want to waste Sideboard space with it.

And I've been looking into some other cards as well, that could maybe work in this deck.

Sacred Ground/Crucible - It really sucks when your opponent cracks Armageddon... I'm probably going to sideboard one.

Hunting Grounds - Eh, it's pretty easy to get Thresh and this is more powerful than Vial.

Jotun Grunt - He's large. Really, it wrecks thresh, can easily be recurred if you can't pay the cost, and he's a friggin 4/4 for two. This is one of my favorite cards in the past year, and he'll probably make good beats.

Mm, there was another reason I bumped this thread back up, but I forget.