How Humility Works

[Tacosnape]

I figure there should always be a quick reference thread for Humility-based interactions in case your head is hurting. Plus, it'll give us a chance to discuss the best way to explain it to people.

But for now, I have a question of my own. How exactly do Humility and Mishra's Factory interact now, and what's the best way to explain this to someone?

Thanks.

[Locutus]

when the factory is animated, there will be two different effects trying to set it's ower and toughness, so they will be applied in timestamp order. If humility is in already in play, and you animate your factory, you will have a 2/2 worker, if the factory already is animated, then humility enters play, it will become a 1/1. In both cases, it won't have any abilities, and when the turn ends, it will become an unanimated mishra again, so activating it will turn it into a 2/2, since it's a new effect setting its p/t

[quicksilver]

418.5a The values of an object’s characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object, then applying continuous effects in a series of layers in the following order: (1) copy effects (see rule 503, “Copying Objects”); (2) control-changing effects; (3) text-changing effects; (4) type-, subtype-, and supertype-changing effects; (5) all other continuous effects, except those that change power and/or toughness; and (6) power- and/or toughness-changing effects.

Inside each layer from 1 through 5, apply effects from characteristic-setting abilities first, then all other effects. Inside layer 6, apply effects in a series of sublayers in the following order: (6a) effects from characteristic-setting abilities; (6b) all other effects not specifically applied in 6c, 6d, or 6e; (6c) changes from counters; (6d) effects from static abilities that modify power and/or toughness but don’t set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value; and (6e) effects that switch a creature’s power and toughness. See also the rules for timestamp order and dependency (rules 418.5b–418.5g).


This how it works with Humility and Factory:
Both Humility and Factory's power/toughness setting abilities would take place in layer 6b so they are applied in time stamp order. So whichever one happened most recently (humility coming into play or activating the factory would take precedence). So normally a factory would be a 2/2 that can't tap for mana or pump when a humility is in play and you turned it into a creature. The only time it would be a 1/1 is if humility came into play after factory was a creature and only for the duration of that turn, future activations would make it a 2/2.

Also some other notes on Humility:
Since counters are applied in Layer 6c and Humility's applies in layer 6b, the counters would not be overwritten by a humility. So for instance say you have a 2/2 creature with 3 +1/+1 counters, it would be a 4/4 under humility. Note that this is always true whether or not the counters where on it before humility came into play.

Pump effects such as giant growth and effects such as rancor are applied in layer 6d. So like the counters they will never get overridden by a humility.

Also something to note about the layers not related to Humility is that since power and toughness switching effects are applied as the last thing in layer 6e, effects that alter a creatures power would alter toughness and vice versa. For example an aquameba with switched power and toughness as a 3/1. If you were to give it -0/-1 it would become a 2/1 since switching is applied after the -0/-1.

[Tacosnape]

Okay. That's pretty much what I thought. The discussion I had the previous night wasn't so much whether it was 1/1 or 2/2, but whether or not it had its ability when it turned into a creature. I -knew- it didn't, but I was doing a very bad job of trying to explain why. He kept saying "It became a creature after Humility was in play so it has the ability" and the best argument I could come up with is "No, you're stupid." Both clauses in my amazingly eloquent three word response were completely valid and correct points, but didn't help explain anything. (Possibly because I'd gotten up at 6:30 in the morning to drive an hour and fifteen minutes to deal blackjack for five hours.)

[quicksilver]

Okay. That's pretty much what I thought. The discussion I had the previous night wasn't so much whether it was 1/1 or 2/2, but whether or not it had its ability when it turned into a creature. I -knew- it didn't, but I was doing a very bad job of trying to explain why. He kept saying "It became a creature after Humility was in play so it has the ability" and the best argument I could come up with is "No, you're stupid." Both clauses in my amazingly eloquent three word response were completely valid and correct points, but didn't help explain anything. (Possibly because I'd gotten up at 6:30 in the morning to drive an hour and fifteen minutes to deal blackjack for five hours.)

Yes the reason why Factory loses its abilities is because Humility says "All creatures lose all abilities". Time stamps are irrelevant to this. Now maybe if Factory said that it gains abilities when you turn it into a creature then timestamps would matter, but it doesn't.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Now maybe if Factory said that it gains abilities when you turn it into a creature then timestamps would matter, but it doesn't.
This is true. For example, a Nantuko Monastery will have first strike if you activate it after Humility enters play. This is because Humility's "all creatures lose all abilities" text and Monastery's "Monastery becomes a creature with first strike" text both apply in layer 5, and thus timestamp is applied.

Factory's difference is that its pumping ability isn't granted by its animation ability; it's an ability written on the card that Humility can remove as normal.

The main reason this all works differently than it used to is that text-changing abilities used to force every aspect of an ability to apply in layer 4. So, a manland animation, which changes the cards type from land to land creature, would apply fully (including power/toughness setting and ability granting) in time for Humility to strip it all away in layers 5 and 6.

John Carter explains the changes to the layering system very well here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/jc61) (the 2nd question).

[Tacosnape]

This is true. For example, a Nantuko Monastery will have first strike if you activate it after Humility enters play. This is because Humility's "all creatures lose all abilities" text and Monastery's "Monastery becomes a creature with first strike" text both apply in layer 5, and thus timestamp is applied.

Factory's difference is that its pumping ability isn't granted by its animation ability; it's an ability written on the card that Humility can remove as normal.


That's the explanation I was looking for last night. Much appreciated.:cool:

[tivadar]

Quick question on this, does the same hold true for instant-type effects? For example, if I cast giant growth on a creature, then it should get the +3/+3 till the end of the turn whether or not a humility is already in play or enters play that turn, correct?

[Ewokslayer]

Pump effects such as giant growth and effects such as rancor are applied in layer 6d. So like the counters they will never get overridden by a humility.

[Myrrodin]

I know this is a really dumb question, but I have never dealt with humility before. Anyway, if I play a creature after Humility is in play, is it a 1/1 or whatever it would normally be? Again, I know this is stupid, but it is hard to tell from just the wording.

[Ewokslayer]

Humility is an enchantment that sets up a continuous effect. It will affect all creatures in play regardless of when they entered play. That is how enchantments generally work.
Example
Fires of Yavimaya gives all your creatures Haste as long as it is in play, not just the ones in play already (It would suck a lot if it work like the latter)

[Myrrodin]

Humility is an enchantment that sets up a continuous effect. It will affect all creatures in play regardless of when they entered play. That is how enchantments generally work.
Example
Fires of Yavimaya gives all your creatures Haste as long as it is in play, not just the ones in play already (It would suck a lot if it work like the latter)

Yeah, I thought so, but the oracle text just felt a little funny to me because of the lack of words such as control and such, and I wanted to make sure, thanks!

[Cavius The Great]

If my opponent has a Humility in play, it says that "all creatures lose all abilities and are 1/1's". But what if I have a Phyrexian Totem in play and activate it turning it into a 5/5, can it somehow get around Humility's effect? My logic is that maybe it could because it was never a creature in the first place. I'm also wondering if the same applies for manlands. Any help would be great. Thanx.

[xsockmonkeyx]

When P. Totem is activated it becomes a creature, loses all abilities, and becomes a 5/5. Simple.

[Bryant Cook]

You're wrong, the Totem is effected by timestamp. When activated like manlands it'll be a 5/5.

[on1y0ne]

You're wrong, the Totem is effected by timestamp. When activated like manlands it'll be a 5/5.

Will you get the crap about "Time Stamp" out of your head!!!
(That goes for everybody, not just Bryant!!!)

Humility works now because of layers. Yes, like the manlands, the totem will have power and toughness equal to whatever animated stats are printed on the card, but won't have any abilities.

[Cavius The Great]

Did the mods merge my thread or something? I remember having an independent thread. Oh well, it doesn't matter anyways. Thanx for the quick responses guys. I kinda had a hunch that Totems worked under Humility but wasn't sure. Thanx for the feedback.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Will you get the crap about "Time Stamp" out of your head!!!
(That goes for everybody, not just Bryant!!!)
It is necessary to understand time stamps in order to understand how Humility interacts with other continuous effects, such as those created by manlands and Totems.

If you activate a Phyrexian Totem, and play a Humility afterwards, the Totem will shrink to a 1/1 and lose its abilities. Obviously this won't happen often, but it seems relevant nonetheless.


Humility works now because of layers. Yes, like the manlands, the totem will have power and toughness equal to whatever animated stats are printed on the card, but won't have any abilities.
I'm fairly certain you are incorrect. For reference (copied from the Comp Rules again, although nothing was changed since my post above):


418.5a The values of an object’s characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object, then applying continuous effects in a series of layers in the following order:

(1) copy effects (see rule 503, “Copying Objects”)
(2) control-changing effects
(3) text-changing effects
(4) type-, subtype-, and supertype-changing effects
(5) all other continuous effects, except those that change power and/or toughness
(6) power- and/or toughness-changing effects.

Inside each layer from 1 through 5, apply effects from characteristic-setting abilities first, then all other effects in timestamp order. Inside layer 6, apply effects in a series of sublayers in the following order:

(6a) effects from characteristic-setting abilities
(6b) all other effects not specifically applied in 6c, 6d, or 6e
(6c) changes from counters
(6d) effects from static abilities that modify power and/or toughness but don’t set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value
(6e) effects that switch a creature’s power and toughness.

Within each sublayer, apply effects in timestamp order

Here is the Oracle text of Phyrexian Totem:

3
Artifact

T: Add B to your mana pool.
2B: Phyrexian Totem becomes a 5/5 black Horror artifact creature with trample until end of turn.
Whenever Phyrexian Totem is dealt damage, if it's a creature, sacrifice that many permanents.

When you activate the Totem's second ability, it creates a continuous effect with three parts, each of which apply in a different layer:

1) Totem becomes a Horror artifact creature until end of turn. This applies in layer 4.
3) Totem is black and has trample until end of turn. This applies in layer 5.
2) Totem becomes a 5/5 until end of turn. This applies in (sub)layer 6b.

The Oracle text of Humility:

2WW
Enchantment

All creatures lose all abilities and are 1/1.
Humility creates a continuous effect with two parts:

1) All creatures lose all abilities. This applies in layer 5.
2) All creatures are 1/1. This applies in (sub)layer 6b.

Obviously, there is no conflict with Totem becoming a Horror artifact creature. Humility has no control over types.

However, there is a conflict in layer 5. Totem's ability wants Totem to be black and to have trample. Humility doesn't care what color Totem is, but it doesn't want it to have trample. Since all of this is going on in layer 5, we have to look at timestamp to figure out which effect wins out. Assuming Humility is already in play when the Totem's ability resolves, the Totem's ability will have the later timestamp, and thus will overrule Humility's effect.

So, the Totem will be black and will have trample.

In (sub)layer 6b, there will be another conflict. Humility wants the Totem to be 1/1, but the effect created by the Totem's ability wants it to be 5/5. Again, timestamp order is applied, and the Totem will become a 5/5.

The interesting thing about Phryrexian Totem is that its other ability, the sacrifice trigger, is "built-in" to the card. It isn't granted by any continuous effect, so Humility will remove it as soon as the Totem becomes a creature. This is similar to why an animated Factory loses its pumping ability under Humility.

In other words, Phyrexian Totem becomes strictly better under Humility. It loses nothing but the drawback.

[on1y0ne]

I wasn't clear when I said it wouldn't have abilities, and for that, I apoligize. The totem, now a creature, no longer has "T:Add B to your mana pool." and "2B: {this} becomes a 5/5 black creature with trample and ... blah, blah, blah, until end of turn."

Again, I apologize for the confusion in my answer. I have been drugged up for the last few days due to pneumonia, so some things aren't getting put into words so easily.

[Obfuscate Freely]

I'm sorry for misunderstanding you. Actually, I overlooked that the other abilities (the mana ability and the animate ability) would be stripped by Humility, as well as the drawback. I guess the Totem isn't strictly better under Humility.

All that really means is that if a Humility enters play after you activate the Totem, it'll become a vanilla 1/1, and you can't undo the effect by re-animating it since the Totem no longer has that ability.

I hope you feel better soon.

[Lego]

What happens if I play Urborg, Kormus Bell, and Humility? Or maybe Nature's Revolt and Humility? Anyway, do the lands lose their ability to tap for mana? I don't really understand how lands get this ability. Is it an ability on the card, so Humility takes it away, or is it granted by the -Swamp or -Mountain subtype, and in that case, does Humility take away that subtype?

[Ewokslayer]

Animated lands can't tap for mana.
The ability to tap for mana is just that an ability.
Humility removes all abilities.
Here is an old ruling from Saturday School. Probably one of the only rulings concerning Humility that is still accurate.

Q: My opponent plays Nature's Revolt. On my turn, I play Humility. Can we tap our creature-lands for mana anymore? What happens if they’re played in the opposite order?
--Eu-Ming Lee

A: You can’t tap the creature-lands for mana at all, regardless of the order the enchantments are played in. Humility takes away the abilities of all creatures, including the mana abilities of the creature-lands. If there had been a later effect giving mana abilities, you could use them, but since Nature’s Revolt just animates the lands, their built-in abilities will always be removed by Humility.

[Locutus]

I don't really understand how lands get this ability.
The ability to tap for mana is granted by the rules to all lands with a basic land subtype, so it is inderectly granted by any effect that gives a Land a basic land type. Those effects are always applied in layer 4 (Type Changing), so when applying humilitys ability-removing in layer 5, the tap for mana ability will always be there for each land with a basic land type, so it will be removed by humility.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

...Unless Riftstone Portal gets tossed in the yard after Humility is played.

[on1y0ne]

...Unless Riftstone Portal gets tossed in the yard after Humility is played.

Incorrect. The Portal will grant the ability regardless of when it was thrown into the yard.

[Ewokslayer]

Incorrect. The Portal will grant the ability regardless of when it was thrown into the yard.

Why?
Shouldn't it work similarily to Anger?
Riftstone Portal and Humility both have continuous affects that apply in layer 5. Neither is a characteristic-setting abilities so they are applied in time-stamp order.

[Cait_Sith]

Unless I am mistaken the new Comp Rules updates removed timestamps altogether.

[on1y0ne]

Anyone interested can look at the most recent changes to the comp rules here. (http://www.leesharpe.org/crchanges.php)
The complete comp rules are found here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=magic/rules/tourneyplayer)
The Humility and Layers deal was changed some time ago, however.

[Ewokslayer]

Anyone interested can look at the most recent changes to the comp rules here. (http://www.leesharpe.org/crchanges.php)
The complete comp rules are found here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=magic/rules/tourneyplayer)
The Humility and Layers deal was changed some time ago, however.

Perhaps I am just tired but I am not seeing where in rule 418.5 that indicates that a Riftstone portal with automatically trump Humility.


Unless I am mistaken the new Comp Rules updates removed timestamps altogether.
Considering the amount of times "timestamp is used in section 418.5 (15 times) I don't think that is the case.

[on1y0ne]

I spent a few hours going through the archives of the Judges' discussion boards, and I cannot find any reference material for my statement regarding the Riftstone Portal. I do recall a written discussion regarding a similar situation, yet I am not sure where it was.

That being said, without source material to back it up, I would have to retract my earlier statement, and offer an apology if I gave incorrect information. If I do find the information I believed was true, I will post the source of it, and a link if possible.

For now, I will say that, yes the Portal does nothing once Humility comes into play, but if it thrown into the bin after the Humility has been in play, then your animated lands will then be able to tap for G or W.

Regards.

[Lego]

Unless I am mistaken the new Comp Rules updates removed timestamps altogether.

No, I was wrong, sorry about making you look like a jerk. Apparently "timestamps" come into play when things happen in the same layer. Otherwise they just happen in layer order, regardless of when they CIP. *Shrug* I'll just call a judge, and hopefully he's smart :wink:

[parallax]

Both Riftstone Portal's ability and Humility's "lose all abilities" ability apply in layer 5, and they do not depend on each other, so they are applied in timestamp order. I've used this trick many times with Anger in RGSA v. Rabid Wombat.

[Radley]

What happens to the comes into play abilities of creatures? Like harmonic sliver's comes into play ability? They comes into play first then ability resolves then become a useless 1/1 or do they become a useless 1/1 immediately without the ability resolving?

[Locutus]

The creature comes into play as a 1/1 creature without abilities, so the CiP-Ability won't be there to trigger

[jamest]

Svogthos the Relentless Tomb
Land
Tap: Add 1 to your mana pool.
3BG: Until end of turn, Svogthos, the Restless Tomb becomes a black and green Plant Zombie creature with “This creature’s power and toughness are each equal to the number of creature cards in your graveyard.” It’s still a land.

Under Humility, is this guy a 1/1 or X/X? The tricky part is whether layer 6a applies.

[Locutus]

405.2 Some objects have intrinsic static abilities which state that the object "has" one or more characteristic values; "is" one or more particular types, supertypes, subtypes, or colors; or that one or more of its characteristics "is" or "are" a particular value. These abilities are characteristic-setting abilities. Abilities of an object that affect the characteristics of another object are not characteristic-setting abilities; neither are abilities that an object grants to itself. See rule 201, "Characteristics," and rule 418.5a.
so neither ability is a characteristic-setting ability, and both apply in layer 6b in timestamp order

[cdr]

Under Humility, is this guy a 1/1 or X/X? The tricky part is whether layer 6a applies.

The important part of the rule Locutus quoted is the second part - normally a P/T setting ability like Svogthos's would be a CSA, but because something gave it that ability, it cannot be a CSA.

[Cait_Sith]

What layer is Wonder's graveyard ability applied in? Does Humility take the flying away?

[Locutus]

418.5a The values of an object's characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object, then applying continuous effects in a series of layers in the following order: (1) copy effects (see rule 503, "Copying Objects"); (2) control-changing effects; (3) text-changing effects; (4) type-, subtype-, and supertype-changing effects; (5) all other continuous effects, except those that change power and/or toughness; and (6) power- and/or toughness-changing effects. Inside each layer from 1 through 5, apply effects from characteristic-setting abilities first, then all other effects in timestamp order.
Humility's "lose all abilities" is applied in Layer 5, as is Wonder's flying, so if Wonder is put into the graveyard after Humility comes into play, your creatures will have flying, if Humility comes into play after Wonder hits the grave, they won't.

[Machinus]

So did Carter solve Opalescence?

[Mordenkain]

Does PandeBurst combo work under humility?
Also, how does Opalescence interact with humility?

Thanks in advance.
- Mordenkain

[APriestOfGix]

Does PandeBurst combo work under humility?
Also, how does Opalescence interact with humility?

Thanks in advance.
- Mordenkain

First one i have no idea.

As for Opalescence, if Humility came first, you have creatures, if Humility came AFTER Op, you have1/1's

[Lego]

Here's the official ruling from Wizards:


The interaction between Humility and Opalescence has changed due to the new layering rules. The type-changing effect still applies at layer 4, like it previously did, but the rest happens in the applicable layers. The rest of it will apply even if the permanent loses its ability before it's finished applying. So if Opalescence, Humility, and Worship are in play and Opalescence came into play before Humility, the following is true: Layer 4: Humility and Worship each become creatures that are still enchantments. (Opalescence). Layer 5: Humility and Worship each lose their abilities. (Humility) Layer 6: Humility becomes 4/4 and Worship becomes 4/4. (Opalescence). Humility becomes 1/1 and Worship becomes 1/1 (Humility). But if Humility came into play before Opalescence, the following is true: Layer 4: Humility and Worship each become creatures that are still enchantments (Opalescence). Layer 5: Humility and Worship each lose their abilities (Humility). Layer 6: Humility becomes 1/1 and Worship becomes 1/1 (Humility). Humility becomes 4/4 and Worship becomes 4/4 (Opalescence).

The only time timestamp order matters is in Layer 6. They always lose all their abilities, it's just a question of whether they become 1/1s or 4/4s. It doesn't get much more complicated if you add another Opalescence:


With a Humility and two Opalescences in play, if Humility has the latest timestamp, then all creatures are 1/1 with no abilities. If the timestamp order is Opalescence, Humility, Opalescence, the second Opalescence is 1/1, and the Humility and first Opalescence are 4/4. If Humility has the earliest timestamp, then everything is 4/4.

[APriestOfGix]

Change the freaking rules!

Make it do exactly what it looks like it does. EVERYTHING (no timestamp) is a freaking 1/1 w/o abilities. It makes the card read easier, and it makes all these dumb rules go away!

[cdr]

Ugh. Necrophiliacs. Leave the poor Humility thread alone.

Note though, that now that it works with timestamps it does do exactly what it says it does.

If you're looking to make "all those dumb rules go away", you may be in the wrong forum. Try an Alpha league.

[Tacosnape]

I'd advise printing out what Lego Army Man posted if you run a deck with either of these cards.

And if you run Humility and don't either A. Know all the layering rules perfectly (Which like 6 people in existence do) or B. Keep a copy of them accessible to you at all times, you're dumb.

Fortunately Opalesence isn't really run in Legacy (Except in the uber-rogue OpaLeyline), and we have snipers on the rooftops across from the dwelling of one Zach Tartell in case he ever decides to experiment with one in Enchantress.

[ssilver]

How does humility work with evoke?? Does Humility only affect creatures in play, or does it affect them in the graveyard too? (sorry if this is a dumb question as I am new to magic)

[APriestOfGix]

How does humility work with evoke?? Does Humility only affect creatures in play, or does it affect them in the graveyard too? (sorry if this is a dumb question as I am new to magic)

Not a dumb question.

It only hits creatures in play. If they arn't in play they are no longer creatures, and are now creature cards. So critters in the grave/hand still have abilities. So you can use Elvish Spirit Guide, or Ichorid's Recursive ability (although, he loses haste, but also dosn't die EOT)


Also welcome to the source!

[Lego]

I'd advise printing out what Lego Army Man posted if you run a deck with either of these cards.

And if you run Humility and don't either A. Know all the layering rules perfectly (Which like 6 people in existence do) or B. Keep a copy of them accessible to you at all times, you're dumb.

Just don't bring these things with you to a tournament. Outside notes are a no no.

[Nihil Credo]

How does humility work with evoke?? Does Humility only affect creatures in play, or does it affect them in the graveyard too? (sorry if this is a dumb question as I am new to magic)


502.74a. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/) Evoke (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#evoke) represents two abilities (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#ability): a static ability (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#static_ability) that functions in any zone (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#zone) from which the card (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#card) can be played and a triggered ability (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#trigger__triggered_ability) that functions in play (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#in_play). "Evoke (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#evoke) [cost (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#cost)]" means "You (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#you__your) may play (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#play) this card (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#card) by paying [cost (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#cost)] rather than paying its mana cost (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#mana_cost)" and "When this permanent (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#permanent) comes into play (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#comes_into_play), if its evoke (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#evoke) cost (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#cost) was paid, its controller (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#control__controller) sacrifices (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#sacrifice) it." Paying a card (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#card)'s evoke (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#evoke) cost (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#cost) follows the rules for paying alternative costs (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#alternative_cost) in rules 409.1b (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#R409.1b.) and 409.1f (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#R409.1f.)-h.

The static ability is an alternate cost that is unaffected by Humility (think Vine Dryad). However, the CIP trigger disappears (think Eternal Witness), so the end result is that under Humility, Shriekmaw is a 1/1 for 1B, and will stick around.

[APriestOfGix]

The static ability is an alternate cost that is unaffected by Humility (think Vine Dryad). However, the CIP trigger disappears (think Eternal Witness), so the end result is that under Humility, Shriekmaw is a 1/1 for 1B, and will stick around.

Just relized i answered half you question. Nihil is right on what he said as well...


Edit:


WOOT!!!! Just hit 500th post!!!!!!!!!!! WOOT PARTY!!!

[Shawn]

How does Humility interact with Urza's Factory? Are the Assembly Workers 2/2's or 1/1's? Thanks.

[Taurelin]

They are 1/1. Humility doesn't make a diference between tokens and creature cards.

More precisely, the tokens come into play as 2/2 due to the characteristic-setting ability of the Factory (Layer 6a), then Humility makes them 1/1 in Layer 6b.


Inside layer 6, apply effects in a series of sublayers in the following order:
(6a) effects from characteristic-setting abilities;
(6b) all other effects not specifically applied in 6c, 6d, or 6e;
(6c) changes from counters;
(6d) effects from static abilities that modify power and/or toughness but don't set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value; and
(6e) effects that switch a creature's power and toughness.
Within each sublayer, apply effects in timestamp order. Note that dependency may alter the order in which effects are applied within a layer or sublayer.

[cdr]

Close, Taurelin07. There's no CDA (Ajani Goldmane's Avatar token is an example of a token with a CDA).

The token's power and toughness are base characteristics just like any old creature's, on top of which all the layers of effects (including CDAs) are applied.


216.1. Some effects put tokens into play. A token is controlled by whomever put it into play and owned by the controller of the spell or ability that created it. (If no player controlled the effect that created it, the token is owned by whomever put it into play.) The spell or ability may define any number of characteristics for the token. This becomes the token's "text." The characteristics defined this way are functionally equivalent to the characteristics that are printed on a card; for example, they define the token's copiable values. A token doesn't have any characteristics not defined by the spell or ability that created it.

[Benie Bederios]

Hi, I have a question about Arcbound Creatures...

Is it correct that when you play a Arcbound Worker after Humility it's just a vanilla 1/1 without a counter.

However if you already had the Worker and your opponent play Humility, Arcbound Worker would become a 1/1 with a +1/+1 counter on it, so a 2/2. Is this correct?

And the Modular effect doesn't work too right?? So if a an Arcbound Worker with counters goes to the yard, those counters are lost.

Or am I completely wrong...

Thanks in advance

BB

[Van Phanel]

Actually, if you play an Arcbound Worker with Humility in play, it would come into play with the counter thus being 2/2.

That is because an ability like "~This~ comes into play with ~something~" creates a replacement effect that changes the coming into play. Instead of coming into play, the creature comes into play with ~something~. It doesn't matter that the ability creating that replacement effect is gone as soon as the creature is in play, it already has its counter by then.

You are correct about the second part, Humility will prevent a "Modular Creature" from giving its counters away when it dies.

[blac198990]

alright, this question was answered early in this thread, but a couple of other people have said against it.

humility is in play, you activate nantuko monastery, of course its a 4/4, that has been said too many times now to get wrong, but does it get first strike, the begining of the thread the answer would be yes, but people are saying they changed stuff and all abilities are lost no matter what.
Everyone at my shop say it becomes a 4/4 but no first strike. in my own thinking with the rules. the adding of first strike and removing all abilities with humilit happens in layer 5. if so it should be a timestamp right? if so, it should have first strike. Am i right? thanx in advance

[Van Phanel]

You are right. Your Monastery will have First Strike.

[JDunkin00]

I figure there should always be a quick reference thread for Humility-based interactions in case your head is hurting. Plus, it'll give us a chance to discuss the best way to explain it to people.

But for now, I have a question of my own. How exactly do Humility and Mishra's Factory interact now, and what's the best way to explain this to someone?

Thanks.

Humility is probably one of the most confusing cards to the average player. I have seen it on multiple ask the judge type articles and forums. Congrats to the family here at the source for a well rounded and thorough explaination.

[Burr]

Hey, i was just wondering how does humility work with phantom nishoba?

Thanks in advance

[Ewokslayer]

You end up with a 1/1 with 7 +1/+1 counters on it making it a 8/8.
The Life gain and damage replacement abilities are removed by Humility and are ignored.

[Burr]

hey, i was playin some mtg today and i ran into some more problems with this card! If humility is in play and my opponent plays a morphed exalted angel does it still have the ability to morph up? and if so is it a 1/1 or a 4/5?

Also, if i have humility in play and my opponent plays a Tarmogoyf, is it a 1/1 or stronger?

Thanks

[Bardo]

Re: Morphed Angel. 1/1 no unmorph ability (I think), no life gain. Morph is a static ability, but an ability nonetheless. If I'm wrong please let me know.

Re: Tarmogoyf. Normally, I'd think it was a 1/1, but maybe something about the 'characteristic defining ability' (e.g. Sutured Ghoul in Breakfast) of the card gets around Humility at some layer where the CDA is set. I'd like to know the answer for this one, but I'm guessing it won't be a 1/1. Anyone know the answer?

[Nihil Credo]

Characteristic-defining abilities have the only privilege of being applied first inside each layer; every other continous effect in the same layer is applied afterwards, in timestamp order (except for layer 6, where you also have sublayer madness to consider). So everyone's favourite chase rare doesn't dodge Humility. (Incidentally, that means that if they ever printed a card that removed all abilities from a creature without assigning it a new power and toughness, then it would kill Tarmogoyf and every other card with *-based toughness.)

As for Exalted Angel, it is still a 1/1, but it retains its morph ability. This is because the option to unmorph is a continous effect that is set when the Morph spell resolves, and not something pertaining to the permanent itself - rather, it behaves like Guardian Angel's effect (how's that for obscure card knowledge? :P). That said, after unmorphing Angel you still get a 1/1 with no abilities - unless Humility is get rid of, it only gains a name, colour, creature type, and resilience to Nosy Goblin.

[Burr]

So then how come tarmgoyf is different caompared to mishra's factory when both have to set their power/toughness when becoming animated. mishra becomes a 2/2 while tarmgoyf is a 1/1 when humility is in play, i dont get it :frown:

Also, does humility take away triggered abitlities such as flametongue kavu's ability to deal 4 dmg to a creature when it comes into play?

[Nihil Credo]

Hey, you asked for it, man:


418.5a. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/) The values of an object (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#object)'s characteristics (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#characteristics) are determined by starting with the actual object (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#object), then applying continuous effects (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#continuous_effect) in a series of layers (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#layer) in the following order (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#order): (1) copy (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#copy) effects (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#effect) (see rule 503 (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#R503.), "Copying Objects (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#object)"); (2) control (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#control__controller)-changing effects (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#effect); (3) text-changing effects (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#text-changing_effect); (4) type-changing effects (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#type-changing_effect) (which includes effects (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#effect) that change an object (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#object)'s card type (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#card_type), subtype (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#subtype), and/or supertype (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#supertype)); (5) all other continuous effects (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#continuous_effect), except those that change power (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#power) and/or toughness (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#toughness); and (6) power (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#power)- and/or toughness (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#toughness)-changing effects (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#effect). Inside each layer (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#layer) from 1 through 5, apply effects (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#effect) from characteristic-defining abilities (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#characteristic-defining_ability) first, then all other effects (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#effect) in timestamp order (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#timestamp_order). Inside layer (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#layer) 6, apply effects (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#effect) in a series of sublayers in the following order (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#order): (6a) effects (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#effect) from characteristic-defining abilities (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#characteristic-defining_ability); (6b) all other effects (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#effect) not specifically applied in 6c, 6d, or 6e; (6c) changes from counters (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#counter); (6d) effects (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#effect) from static abilities (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#static_ability) that modify power (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#power) and/or toughness (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#toughness) but don't set power (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#power) and/or toughness (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#toughness) to a specific number (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#number) or value; and (6e) effects (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#effect) that switch a creature (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#creature)'s power (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#power) and toughness (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#toughness). Within each sublayer, apply effects (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#effect) in timestamp order (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#timestamp_order). Note that dependency may alter the order (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#order) in which effects (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#effect) are applied within a layer (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#layer) or sublayer. See also the rules for timestamp order (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#timestamp_order) and dependency (rules 418.5b (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#R418.5b.)-418.5g).

Tarmogoyf's characteristic-defining ability's effect applies in 6a. Humility's effect applies in 6b.

Mishra's Factory's animation effect applies in 6b too, so it applies last if you animate Factory after playing Humility; if you drop the enchantment afterwards, then Factory will be a 1/1.

Note that either way the Factory will not be able to give +1/+1 to anything; this is because the pumping ability is not part of the animation effect itself (unlike Nantuko Monastery's first strike) and, as a generic effect, it applies in layer 5, well before Humility's effect.

[Burr]

what a headache.. thanks a lot man lol

[Taurelin]

3 things:

1) I think this question hasn't been answered explicitely.

Also, does humility take away triggered abitlities such as flametongue kavu's ability to deal 4 dmg to a creature when it comes into play?

The answer is yes. Humility removes all abilities. A trigered ability is an ability. Hence, Flametongue's ability is removed. q.e.d.


2)
resilience to Nosy Goblin.

Nosy Goblin also loses its activated ability, because it's a creature. So Angel is safe, anyway.

3)
As for Exalted Angel, it is still a 1/1, but it retains its morph ability. This is because the option to unmorph is a continous effect that is set when the Morph spell resolves, and not something pertaining to the permanent itself

How does this statement relate to the following (from Wizards Judge Resources):


* If Humility is in play, it's not possible to turn face-down creatures face up using the morph ability. Humility removes the morph cost when it removes the morph ability, and so it prevents you from doing this.
(link (http://www.wizards.com/dci/judge/resources/December_2003_RTR_12-01_EN.doc))


My interpretation of the Morph-Humility-interaction is based on the following section from the CompRules:


502.26b To play a card using its morph ability, turn it face down. It becomes a 2/2 face-down creature card, with no text, no name, no subtypes, no expansion symbol, and no mana cost. Any effects or prohibitions that would apply to playing a card with these characteristics (and not the face-up card’s characteristics) are applied to playing this card. These values are the copiable values of that object’s characteristics. (See rule 418.5, “Interaction of Continuous Effects,” and rule 503, “Copying Objects.”) Put it onto the stack (as a face-down spell with the same characteristics), and pay {3} rather than pay its mana cost. This follows the rules for paying alternative costs. You can use morph to play a card from any zone from which you could normally play it. When the spell resolves, it comes into play with the same characteristics the spell had. The morph effect applies to the face-down object wherever it is, and it ends when the permanent is turned face up.
(link (http://www.wizards.com/magic/comprules/MagicCompRules071001.doc))

The morph ability belongs to Exalted Angel's characteristics. Since it's a static ability, Humility removes it.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Nihil Credo]

Nosy Goblin also loses its activated ability, because it's a creature. So Angel is safe, anyway.

Hmm... ehm... did I mention there's a Soul Sculptor in play that used its ability on Nosy Goblin after the face-down Angel was played, but before Humility came into play? :P


* If Humility is in play, it's not possible to turn face-down creatures face up using the morph ability. Humility removes the morph cost when it removes the morph ability, and so it prevents you from doing this.

Wow. Ok, I did a couple more searches about the issue, and it seems there have been contradicting rulings on this. The Cranial Insertion judges agree with the one you quoted, while Sheldon Menery (on the SCG answer team) says that morph still works.

After reading around a while, I now agree that Humility does indeed stop unmorphage. Here's where I made a mistake:


502.26a. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/) Morph (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#morph) is a static ability (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#static_ability) that functions in any zone (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#zone) from which you (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#you__your) could play (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#play) the card (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#card) it's on, and the morph (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#morph) effect (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#effect) works any time the card (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#card) is face down (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#face_down).A ny time you (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#you__your) could play (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#play) an instant (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#instant), you (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#you__your) may show all players (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#player) the morph (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#morph) cost (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#cost) for any face-down permanent (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#permanent) you (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#you__your) control (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#control__controller), pay (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#pay) that cost (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#cost), then turn the permanent (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#permanent) face up. This action does not use the stack (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#stack).

Exalted Angel has the morph ability when it's a card in hand, or in another zone from which you can play it. This means, for example, that if Angel is in your graveyard, there's an Yixlid Jailer in play, and you resolve Yawgmoth's Will, you can't play the Angel as a morph from your graveyard (though you can still hardcast him).

I was thinking that a face-down Angel does not have a morph ability, which Humility would remove. However, what happens is that the Angel does have the morph ability - it just doesn't function, because you can't play the Angel from the in-play zone.

But even if it doesn't function, the ability still provides an important part of the 'turning face-up process' - the morph cost. By taking away the 'atrophied' ability, Humility also deprives the Angel of its morph cost, so you can't perform the requisite "show all players (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#player) the morph (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#morph) cost (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#cost)" action.

[TrialByFire]

Can you play an evoke creature for its Evoke cost with Humility out? With my understanding of Humility, it should be possible to Evoke Shriekmaw for 1B and get a 1/1 out of it right?

[Taurelin]

Can you play an evoke creature for its Evoke cost with Humility out? With my understanding of Humility, it should be possible to Evoke Shriekmaw for 1B and get a 1/1 out of it right?

Yes this works.


502.74a Evoke represents two abilities: a static ability that functions in any zone from which the card can be played and a triggered ability that functions in play.

The static ability won't be affected by Humility (just as Madness, Affinity etc.). Once the creature is in play, it becomes a 1/1 without any abilites, though, thus the CiP-trigger won't ... trigger.

[GiantGrowth]

ok, let me see if I'm understanding this correctly.

what about equipment that gives the creature abilities, like loxodon warhammer? It's my understanding that it will happen in timestamp order so if you played the hammer after the humility was played the creature will have the ablilities.

also, what about the power change? If I'm correct, the humility effect happens in layer 6(b) then the warhammer's effect happens in layer 6(d) so the creature always gets +3/+0 regardless of timestamp.

am I correct?

[Taurelin]

what about equipment that gives the creature abilities, like loxodon warhammer? It's my understanding that it will happen in timestamp order so if you played the hammer after the humility was played the creature will have the ablilities.

To be more precise: if you equip the hammer to the creature after Humility was played, it will have the abilities.

That means, if the hammer is already equipped to a creature and a Humility is played, the creature loses its abilities. But if you equip another creature, a new timestamp will be set.

Please also note that some equipment has abilities that are not affected by Humility at all. For example Sword of Fire and Ice.

Artifact - Equipment, 3 (3)
Equip {2}.
Equipped creature gets +2/+2 and has protection from red and from blue.
Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage to a player, Sword of Fire and Ice deals 2 damage to target creature or player and you draw a card.

The bold ability will always apply, because it belongs to the artifact itself, not to the equipped creature.



also, what about the power change? If I'm correct, the humility effect happens in layer 6(b) then the warhammer's effect happens in layer 6(d) so the creature always gets +3/+0 regardless of timestamp.

am I correct?

Yes. The timestamp rule only applies to changes that happen in the same layer.

[Arsenal]

So, is there a comprehensive list of common interactions with Humility? Like:

1.) Come into play/Leave play triggered abilities do not trigger under Humility.

2.) Evoke costs can still be paid in order to play a creature.

3.) etc...

A nice, neat, compiled list would be dandy for quick reference.

[freakish777]

But if you equip another creature, a new timestamp will be set.


This doesn't even have to be a different creature, you just have to pay the equip cost again and target a creature you control (can be the same creature it was previously equipped to).

[Taurelin]

This doesn't even have to be a different creature, you just have to pay the equip cost again and target a creature you control (can be the same creature it was previously equipped to).

I believe that's wrong.


501.2b If an effect tries to attach an Aura, Equipment, or Fortification to the object it’s already attached to, the effect does nothing.

501.2c Attaching an Aura, Equipment, or Fortification in play to a different object causes the Aura, Equipment, or Fortification to receive a new timestamp.


I read this rule 501.b like "the effect does nothing, not even create a new timestamp."

Can anybody confirm or contradict?

[Anusien]

You're correct. You can tell because it says so in the rules section you quoted.

[Burr]

I know humility stops come into play triggered abilities, but what about the triggered abilities that go off when a creature is put into the graveyard (such as Epochrasite)? Do their abilities go off now that the creature is no longer in play?

Thanks in advance

[Maveric78f]

Humility stops come into play and leave play effects. Otherwise you'd see more and more academy rector control decks I believe.

[Burr]

hm i see, are you sure though. i mean the creature is no longer in play. does this mean that it also affects cards like wonder and genesis?

[Taurelin]

That's different. They have trigered/static abilities that work from the graveyard, but in case of Wonder you have to mind the timestamp rule.

If Humility is in play, then Wonder enters the graveyard, your creatures will have flying (if you control an island).
If Wonder is in the graveyard, then Humility enters play, your creatures will lose flying.

Same is true for Anger.

[bladewing019]

If there is a Yixlid Jailer, Humility, and an Opalescence out, and a player cycles Krosan Tusker will they get to search for a basic land? Does the answer change depending on what came into play first or if there were 2 Opalescences?

[on1y0ne]

If there is a Yixlid Jailer, Humility, and an Opalescence out, and a player cycles Krosan Tusker will they get to search for a basic land? Does the answer change depending on what came into play first or if there were 2 Opalescences?

Now you are getting rediculous. Yes, you get to search, and no it doesn't matter. Tusker's ability is a triggered ability when you cycle it. Also, it is a Creature card, not a creature when you do this. Jailer has nothing to do with any of it since he has no abilities, but even if he did, it wouldn't matter.

How to handle Humility-

If your opponent plays it: Ask him any rule regarding Humility and Layers. If he cannot answer them, then punch him in the face, take the Humility and rip it to shreds.

If you play it: Allow your opponent to ask any questions regarding Humility and Layers. If you can't anwer them, let your opponent punch you in the face, take your Humility and rip it to shreds.

Why does every judge have a playset of Humilities? To keep them out of circulation.

[Nihil Credo]

Bladewing's question is not obvious. Yixlid Jailer normally stops Krosan Tusker from triggering (because "when you cycle" triggers from the graveyard, since the hand is a hidden zone).

He is basically asking "With Humility and Opalescence in play, do other creatures retain their abilities?". If yes, then Jailer is active and Tusker doesn't trigger.

[etrigan]

(because "when you cycle" triggers from the graveyard, since the hand is a hidden zone).


Because abilities cant trigger from hidden zones, so it has to trigger from the graveyard, correct?

[Taurelin]

Because abilities cant trigger from hidden zones, so it has to trigger from the graveyard, correct?

It's even written down in the rules.


502.18c Some cards with cycling have abilities that trigger when they’re cycled. “When you cycle [this card]” means “When you discard [this card] to pay a cycling cost.” These abilities trigger from the graveyard.

[bladewing019]

Sorry I probably should have put that rule in my post to avoid confusion. So does anyone know the answer to this or will it just make judges hate you if it ever comes up?

[Burr]

How do glorious anthem and humility work together? Would creatures be 1/1s or 2/2s?
Thanks in advance

[Taurelin]

Timestamp only applies if two things happen in the same layer.


Inside layer 6, apply effects in a series of sublayers in the following order:
(6a) effects from characteristic-setting abilities;
(6b) all other effects not specifically applied in 6c, 6d, or 6e;
(6c) changes from counters;
(6d) effects from static abilities that modify power and/or toughness but don't set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value; and
(6e) effects that switch a creature's power and toughness.


Humility happens in 6b, Anthem in 6d.

So the critters will ALWAYS be 2/2.

[quicksilver]

Taurelin07 is correct. Layer 6d specifically states that power and toughness setting effects do not apply here. So humility only applies in layer 6b. Anthem applies in 6d, so anthem is always applied later, regardless of time stamps.

So creatures will always be 2/2's no matter which order the humility and anthem were palyed.

[Adan]

Now you are getting rediculous. Yes, you get to search, and no it doesn't matter. Tusker's ability is a triggered ability when you cycle it. Also, it is a Creature card, not a creature when you do this. Jailer has nothing to do with any of it since he has no abilities, but even if he did, it wouldn't matter.

Well, it does matter.

The land-searching ability of Tusker, as well as the Token-ability of DoJ, the pinging of Slice and Dice etc. are all abilities that trigger when you cycle those cards. The abilities trigger from the graveyard and if Jailer is in play, he makes them lose those "When *bla* is cycled"-Ability, thus you won't get to search lands, get Tokens or anything else.

When Humility is in play, Jailer loses his static ability, thus all cards in all graveyards regain their abilities.

[TopGun]

I have a few questions that came up recently regarding Humility.

1) A mishra's animated with a humility already is in play becomes a 2/2 correct?

2) Said mishra's goes back to being a land eot correct?

3) Said mishra's cannot pump itself, but can be pumped by a 2nd non-creature mishra's in play too correct?

4) An arcbound ravager is a 0/0 with one +1/+1 counter...Humility is played...does ravager become a 1/1 with one +1/+1 counter? (in essence making it a 2/2)

5) If opponent gave another counter before Humility hit play-->0/0 w/2 +1/+1 counters...what would happen?...a 3/3?...a 1/1?

6) If ravager comes down after Humility in play...what then?

Thanks,
-TG

[Taurelin]

1) A mishra's animated with a humility already is in play becomes a 2/2 correct?

2) Said mishra's goes back to being a land eot correct?

3) Said mishra's cannot pump itself, but can be pumped by a 2nd non-creature mishra's in play too correct?

4) An arcbound ravager is a 0/0 with one +1/+1 counter...Humility is played...does ravager become a 1/1 with one +1/+1 counter? (in essence making it a 2/2)


All correct, so far. @2: It is always a land, but EoT it stops being a creature. That's what you meant.



5) If opponent gave another counter before Humility hit play-->0/0 w/2 +1/+1 counters...what would happen?...a 3/3?...a 1/1?


All the counters apply, so a 1/1 with 2 counters becoms 3/3, effectively.



6) If ravager comes down after Humility in play...what then?


The same. Modular says: "Modular N" means "This permanent comes into play with N +1/+1 counters on it".

And such "comes into play" abilities are not touched by Humility.

[B4L4]

"comes into play" abilities are not touched by Humility

wrong..
For example ringleader doesn"t trigger with humility in play.

[Taurelin]

wrong..
For example ringleader doesn"t trigger with humility in play.

I'm not talking about triggered abilities "When <this> comes into play", but about abilities like that of Ravager that have the form "This comes into play with xy" or "This comes into play tapped" and so on. These are static abilities that modify how the permanent comes into play, and these are NOT removed by Humility.

[Cait_Sith]

Triggered abilities with "when <this> comes into play" are the ones referred to as comes into play abilities. Your answer was correct, but B4L4 was right in pointing out the fact that you did mix up terminology.

[TopGun]

Awesome, thanks a lot guys!

Is there any good way to explain why mishra's/nantuko's monastery work the way they do without going into the whole layers and timestamp argument?

I was pretty sure about the mishra's thing in a tournament, but I had no way of explaining it to my opponent so he would understand/accept that this was how it works.

If not, c'est la vie...I just thought maybe somebody had played enough with humility that they had a handy dandy little explanation that they used for such a frequent occurrence as the mishra debate with a newish opponent.

Thanks,
-TG

[Cait_Sith]

They work the way they do because of layers and timestamp.

You might try bringing in the relevant section of the Comp Rules with you, or just rely on a judge. If the judge does not know how it works, then you likely have bigger problems.

[Lego]

wrong..
For example ringleader doesn"t trigger with humility in play.

If Arcbound Ravager's modular counters were a triggered ability, he'd die to state based effects while still a 0/0.

[PhanTom_lt]

Awesome, thanks a lot guys!

Is there any good way to explain why mishra's/nantuko's monastery work the way they do without going into the whole layers and timestamp argument?

I was pretty sure about the mishra's thing in a tournament, but I had no way of explaining it to my opponent so he would understand/accept that this was how it works.

If not, c'est la vie...I just thought maybe somebody had played enough with humility that they had a handy dandy little explanation that they used for such a frequent occurrence as the mishra debate with a newish opponent.

Thanks,
-TG

On MWS I often use the quick explanation "The Factory becomes a 1/1, then a 2/2". Usually works.

[Cait_Sith]

The problem is that isn't actually what happens, so if there is any sort of minus effect it could get ugly.

[PhanTom_lt]

Well, all effects starting with "Becomes.." are of the same level, or layer. So it is almost the truth. And the rest minus or plus effects are applied later.

[Burr]

Hi,
I was playing a game on MWS and had a Humility out. I then attempted to plainscycle my Eternal Dragon but my opponent told me I couldn't because Humility takes away Eternal's cycling. He then said Humility also affects cards like genesis while its in the graveyard.

Is my opponent correct? If not, how do I prove to him that Humility only affects creatures in play?

Thanks

[Nihil Credo]

When a card mentions a type (e.g. "artifact", "creature") or subtype (e.g. "Elf", "Aura") without following it with a clarification such as "card" or "spell", it automatically means a permanent of that type or subtype.

In this case, Humility says "All creatures lose all abilities", and therefore refers to creature permanents (i.e. cards or tokens in play), but does not include creature cards like a Genesis in the yard or a Dragon in hand which are not permanents because they are not in play.

[Taurelin]

This question came up in two German speaking forums, and I would like to know how the American experts handle this problem.

How does Magus of the Moon work with Humility in play?

Explanation a)
Magus of the Moon's effect applies in Layer 4, Humility in Layer 5. Therefore, Magus will turn all non-basic lands into Mountains, while he himself becomes a 1/1 without any abilities.

Explanation b)
Before applying layers, we have to see which effects are active in the first place.
Permanents --> effects
Magus of the Moon --> (effect) makes mountains
Humility --> (effect) removes abilities from creatures --> Magus's effect is gone!
So only Humility's effect remains, the result is that all non-basic lands remain the same, while Magus is a 1/1 without abilities.

What would you say, which version is correct? Or is there a completely different explanation?

[Van Phanel]

Explanation a) is absolutely correct.

The game goes through the layers and when it arrives in layer4 Magus still has its abiility and all nonbasics are mountains. In layer 5 Humility removes the ability of Magus, but it has already done its dirty job.

@Sanguine Voyeur: I don't want to be rude, but this thread is not the right place for "believing".

[freakish777]

Out of curiosity, do I have to play Nature's Revolt and Humility in a specific order to make lands not tap for mana (similar to Null Rod + Mycosynth Lattice)? Or can I play them in any order?

[Ewokslayer]

Any order, since Nature's Revolt will affect the lands in an earlier layer than humility.

[Van Phanel]

Edit - response to your edit - Yeah, that's pretty much where the confusion lies. It doesn't matter where the ability of the Magus applies, because it would only conflict with Humility if it were changing the characteristics of the Magus (see: Dryad Arbor). Since it only applies to other objects, there is no conflict, and the lands are whatever they are, since the Magus ability is removed.


No dependance here as among other things both abilities would have to be in the same layer:



418.5c An effect is said to “depend on” another if (a) it’s applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect [...]

And still the nonbasics will be mountains.



418.5a The values of an object’s characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object, then applying continuous effects in a series of layers in the following order: (1) copy effects (see rule 503, “Copying Objects”); (2) control-changing effects; (3) text-changing effects; (4) type-changing effects (which includes effects that change an object’s card type, subtype, and/or supertype); (5) all other continuous effects, except those that change power and/or toughness; and (6) power- and/or toughness-changing effects.

Emphasis mine.

When trying to find out what the nonbsics are, you start with the actual objects as they are printed. Then you go through the layers. In layer 4 you see a Magus of the Moon with an ability that turns all nonbasics in the mountains. In layer 5 that ability will be removed but it's job is already done.

The mistake is to assume that you would get a new result if you'd go through the layers again. But actually if you follow the rule quoted above, you will still find the ability of Magus in layer 4.

[Shugyosha]

When trying to find out what the nonbsics are, you start with the actual objects as they are printed. Then you go through the layers. In layer 4 you see a Magus of the Moon with an ability that turns all nonbasics in the mountains. In layer 5 that ability will be removed but it's job is already done.

The mistake is to assume that you would get a new result if you'd go through the layers again. But actually if you follow the rule quoted above, you will still find the ability of Magus in layer 4.

So destroying the Magus would then also have no effect? The nonbasics stay mountains?

[Jaiminho]

So destroying the Magus would then also have no effect? The nonbasics stay mountains?

Magus isn't in play anymore, so its ability will not be in effect.

EDIT: You might be thinking that, as it is written, an effect stays in action after it is applied in its own layer, so when you are to apply effects again, Magus won't have that ability since, on layer 5 of when you applied Humility's effect, it lost its ability. It isn't like that. What happens is that, whenever you apply effects according to their layers, you are as if resetting everything to its printed stage. Then, by going layer by layer and effect by effect, you find out the state of the permanent in play.

[Anusien]

Van Phanel is correct on all counts. Magus of the Moon + Humility results in Magus of the Moon's type changing ability taking effect in Layer 4 and Humility changing Magus of the Moon into a 1/1 with no abilities in Layer 5 and 6. So you'll have a 1/1 Magus and a bunch of Mountains. Note: It doesn't matter that Humility takes away Magus's abilities in Layer 5 since they already applied in layer 4. Once Magus dies, its ability will no longer apply.


Please don't answer rules questions if you aren't sure. In the case of Humility, if your answer does not break each ability down into the layers they apply to, don't answer. It only causes confusion.
If you're not sure, someone still has to post saying you're right, and if you're wrong, someone has to post and clear up the confusion. So if you don't know, please don't post. It will only make things more difficult.

[Taurelin]

Just for clarification: Isn't there a contradiction to the following rules?


410.10b Continuous effects that modify characteristics of a permanent do so the moment the permanent is in play (and not before then). The permanent is never in play with its unmodified characteristics. Continuous effects don’t apply before the permanent is in play, however (see rule 410.10e).
Example: If an effect reads “All lands are creatures” and a land card is played, the effect makes the land card into a creature the moment it enters play, so it would trigger abilities that trigger when a creature comes into play. Conversely, if an effect reads “All creatures lose all abilities” and a creature card with a comes-into-play triggered ability enters play, that effect will cause it to lose its abilities the moment it enters play, so the comes-into-play ability won’t trigger.

418.2. Continuous effects that modify characteristics of permanents do so simultaneously with the permanent coming into play. They don’t wait until the permanent is in play and then change it.

If you apply these rules to Magus with Humility in play, you might say that Magus already enters play without his type-changing ability, or rather that Magus is never in play with his ability?

[Van Phanel]

Try to look at the layer-system like this:

Whenever anything in play changes, the game tries to find out, what the actual game-state is. To do so, it starts with the actual printed cards. Then it goes through the layers.

With Magus turned face-down it finds nothing in layer 4 because the Magus has no text anymore:



502.26e If a face-up permanent is turned face down by a spell or ability, it becomes a 2/2 face-down creature, with no text, no name, no subtypes, no expansion symbol, and no mana cost.



If you apply these rules to Magus with Humility in play, you might say that Magus already enters play without his type-changing ability, or rather that Magus is never in play with his ability?

Correct. It would enter play as a 3/3 with Muraganda Petroglyphs (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/146.html) in play. (as an example)

Still look at what I said above. Whenever the game goes through the layers, it starts with the printed object. It does so, even if the actual object in play has changed somehow.

[Jason]

I was wondering if Humility removes the sorcery-speed clause on Teferi; it seems to me this would be a similar situation as Magus of the Moon. I couldn't find any information on what layer Teferi's abilities are applied.

[yggdrasil]

I was wondering if Humility removes the sorcery-speed clause on Teferi; it seems to me this would be a similar situation as Magus of the Moon. I couldn't find any information on what layer Teferi's abilities are applied.

It's not applied in any layer since it's not an effect that changes the characteristics of an object, but the rules of the game itself (in this case: when spells can be played).
So when an opponent wants to play an Instant end-of-turn, the game checks whether this was legal or not. To determine that, we must know if Teferi still has his abilities. To determine that, in turn, we have to look how the continuous effects are applied --> Layer rules. They show us that Teferi looses his abilities in Layer 5 due to Humility and therefor, there is nothing preventing your opponent from playing his Instant in your End of Turn-Step.

[Lasher]

What happens if Humility is in play and I play Meddling Mage?
Do I still get to name a card? If the Humility leaves play the Mage's effect kicks in?

[TeKo]

"As comes into play" effects still work, so you name a card!

[Nihil Credo]

"As comes into play" effects still work, so you name a card!
However, the second ability ("The named card can't be played") does not work, so the card you named can be played normally - as long as Humility remains in play.

[Taurelin]

However, when Humility leaves play, the game remembers which card was chosen for Meddling Mage back then. So after that it can't be played.

[Frenger]

Do creatures still have their creature type? EX i have a humility in play and then play engineered plague naming goblins or whatever

[Nihil Credo]

Yes, they do.

[cwt1220]

Maybe I missed it in here somewhere, but what happens if my opponent has humility in play, then I play Magus of the Moon, or Painter's servant.
This is probably stupid but i still haven't received a straight answer.

Thanks,
Chris

[cdr]

Afaik Magus of the Moon still works under a Humility.

Know or know not; there is no "afaik". (Read: Only post an answer if you're certain, and back it up with rules.)

Magus's effect is a type-changing effect and applies in layer 4; Humility's effect is applied in layer 5. All effects are applied all at once in layer order globally, so Magus's effect will always be there even though the ability that created it gets removed later.

All creature abilities that apply in layer 5 (and that's most of them, since layer 5 is everything that's not copy, control, text, type, or power/toughness) are dependent on Humility's effect, so Humility will always remove them - but effects in earlier layers can sneak in.

Painter's Servant's effect is layer 5. The color choice is made "as Painter's Servant comes into play" which is before it's in play, so the choice will be made even if it doesn't do much with Humility in play.

(And ok, color characteristic defining abilities are the one layer 5 effect not affected by Humility, since CDAs always apply first in a layer - Kobolds are still red.)


418.5c. An effect is said to "depend on" another if (a) it's applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect (see rule 418.5a); (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect.

418.5d. An effect dependent on one or more other effects waits to apply until just after all of those effects have been applied. If multiple dependent effects would apply simultaneously in this way, they're applied in "timestamp order" relative to each other. If several dependent effects form a dependency loop, then this rule is ignored and the effects in the dependency loop are applied in timestamp order.

[Sage]

Why are Kobolds red under Humility if Painter's Servant's ability (same as Kobolds?) doesn't make everything the chosen color?

[Taurelin]

Because the Kobolds' ability is a so-called characteristic-setting ability.


418.5a [...] Inside each layer from 1 through 5, apply effects from characteristic-setting abilities first, then all other effects in timestamp order.

Both Kobolds and Humility (1st effect) are layer 5. Humility is always applied after the Kobolds' CSA. The result is that Kobolds are in play as 1/1 without any abilities (!), but they are still red (similar to the Magus of the Moon interaction).

Note that Painter works differently. In this case, his ability depends on Humility, and so it is removed by Humility.


418.5c An effect is said to “depend on” another if (a) it’s applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect (see rule 418.5a); (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect.


Just to make it complete, here's the definition of CSA:


405.2. Some objects have intrinsic static abilities which state that the object “has” one or more characteristic values; “is” one or more particular types, supertypes, subtypes, or colors; or that one or more of its characteristics “is” or “are” a particular value. These abilities are characteristic-setting abilities.

So Kobolds have a CSA which affects the Kobolds themselves. Painter's ability does not only affect itself, and so it's not a CSA. That's the differerence

[Zinch]

So Kobolds have a CSA which affects the Kobolds themselves. Painter's ability does not only affect itself, and so it's not a CSA. That's the differerence


But then, tarmogoyf would be a x/x+1 under a humility?
Because it has a CSA and it applies before humility, just like kobolds... (please tell me that the goyf is not even better... please...:wink: )

[Anusien]

But then, tarmogoyf would be a x/x+1 under a humility?
Because it has a CSA and it applies before humility, just like kobolds... (please tell me that the goyf is not even better... please...:wink: )
Tarmogoyf's CDA effect is layer 6a. Humility's P/T setting effect is layer 6b. Humility wins.

The Kobold/Humility part of that interaction is in earlier layers.

[Taurelin]

Because it has a CSA and it applies before humility,

Like Anusien said, the CDA (= CSA !? ) thing only works inside each layer, not if the effects apply in different layers.


The basic recipe for all these layer actions is essentially logical.

a) You start with the objects themselves
b) You order the effects layer by layer from 1 to 6a-e
c) Inside each layer - starting with 1, of course - you first check for dependencies (which includes the question about CSAs)
d) After that, you apply the remaining effects in timestamp order
e) Then you move over to the next layer

[Phoenix Ignition]

"As comes into play" effects still work, so you name a card!

This was about Meddling mage. But if I play a Harmonic Sliver, does its come into play ability still blow up humility?

[quicksilver]

This was about Meddling mage. But if I play a Harmonic Sliver, does its come into play ability still blow up humility?

No.

Abilites worded "As this comes into play" or "this comes into play (tapped, with counters etc...)" still work under humility because they take effect before the creature actually hits play. Thse abilites modify how something comes into play.

Abilites such as harmonic sliver which are worded "when this comes into play" do not happen under humility since those don't trigger until after the creature hits play. These are triggered abilities that go onto the stack.

[Solknar]

Stupid question:
suppose I activate my mishra during the combat step of my opponent to block some dude.
Then, during his second main phase, the same filthy opponent plays humility.

My mishra is no a 1/1 and this effect doesn't end at EOT, right? same for nantuko monastery and for all other animate land?

[Taurelin]

Mishra becomes a 1/1 temporarily, and the effect still ends at the end of turn. The reason is that the activation includes a duration of the effect. And this is not affected by Humility at all.

[Team-Hero]

This happened this weekend at a tournament. I just want to clarify.

Humility is in play.

I attack with my Eternal Witness, Grave-Sheel Scarab... etc... all 1/1s.

He (opponent) activates Phyrexian Totem, a 5/5 Phyrexian Negator, to block.

After the combat step, on my second main phase, I play Spitting Image on his Phyrexian Totem.

Do I keep my own Phyrexian Totem, having to activate it every turn for it to become a 5/5 Trample? Or does it become just another 1/1?

[Van Phanel]

You get a non-animated Totem with the ability to be animated. Copy-Effects are in Layer 1 while both Humility and the Totem's activation are only applied in higher layers.

[Skeggi]

Humility + Mishra's Factory + Elspeth's second ability. Does Mishra's Factory become a 5/5 unblockable?

[DeathScythe]

Humility + Mishra's Factory + Elspeth's second ability. Does Mishra's Factory become a 5/5 unblockable?

no mishra becomes a 5/5 flyer ;)

[Skeggi]

no mishra becomes a 5/5 flyer ;)
Yeah, and because all other creatures don't have flying, it will usually be unblockable. Thanks :smile:.

[f|i[p]]

So I was reading through the whole thread, My God.... its confusing but I am starting to understand how it works.. basically anything like factory and totems work under a humility, considering you don't put down humility while your creature is animated...


So I understand that magus of the moon works with humility, I mean he'll end up doing the damage...which is making your non basics to mountains, and end up being a 1/1 creature....

So I am assuming that magus of the moat works the same way...
He will do the damage meaning creatures without flying can't attack, but end up being a 1/1 creature.. Am I right to assume this?

[cdr]

;295116']
So I understand that magus of the moon works with humility, I mean he'll end up doing the damage...which is making your non basics to mountains, and end up being a 1/1 creature....

So I am assuming that magus of the moat works the same way...
He will do the damage meaning creatures without flying can't attack, but end up being a 1/1 creature.. Am I right to assume this?

The answer lies in layers: http://mtgsalvation.com/836-cranial-insertion-order-of-operations.html

Humility applies in two layers; 5 for "all creatures lose all abilities", 6b for "all creatures are 1/1".

Any effect that applies in layers 1-4 gets around "all creatures lose all abilities". Those are (1) copy, (2) control, (3) text-changing, and (4) type-changing.

Magus of the Moon just barely sneaks under Humility's effect, in layer 4, while Magus of the Moat applies in layer 5 and has no such luck.

[Skeggi]

In that case, Magus of the Tabernacle would fall under 3: text changing, so it will still be effective?

[Nihil Credo]

In that case, Magus of the Tabernacle would fall under 3: text changing, so it will still be effective?

418.6b. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/) Effects (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#effect) that add or remove abilities (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#ability) don't change the text of the objects (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#object) they affect, so any abilities (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#ability) that are granted to an object (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#object) can't be changed by effects (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#effect) that change the text of that object (http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#object).
(emphasis mine)

[cdr]

Text-changing means something very specific: changing a word in the text of a card to another word. Right now the only things that have been printed change a color, land type (Mind Bend etc) or creature type (Artifical Evolution).

[DrewliusMaximus]

Epochrasite still comes into play with +1 counters (if not played from hand) under Humility right?

[cdr]

Yes. "Comes into play with" is part the event that puts it into play - Humility applies just after, simultaneous with it coming into play. And since counters are applied after Humility, it will be a 4/4.

[DrewliusMaximus]

I assumed that since Epochrasite's was not a cip ability that it worked, but I wanted to be sure. Thanks.

[Tao]

Magus of the Moon just barely sneaks under Humility's effect, in layer 4, while Magus of the Moat applies in layer 5 and has no such luck.

Is that true? Does Magus of the Moon work under Humility? I can't imagine that!? Damn I am confused.

[TheBirdMan]

Yeah Magus works, hes right.

[Skeggi]

Yeah Magus works, hes right.

More specifically only Magus of the Moon afaik, all the other Maguses do nothing. Apparently because the effect from Magus of the Moon is in an earlier layer, the other effects aren't.

[Micron]

This Magus of the Moon and Humility interaction was absolutely unknown from my part. Does this apply for new lands coming into play also? I'd say no as Magus no longer has his ability, am I right?

[cdr]

You are not right, unfortunately. All continuous effects are applied to everything all at once, layer by layer. Humility removes Magus of the Moon's ability, but by the time it removes it, it has already been applied.

See my first post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=295143&postcount=166).

[Taurelin]

Just out of curiosity:

Does Humility make a deck full of Relentless Rats illegal? :smile:
Or does their (second) ability apply "as long as <this> is in your library"?

[cdr]

I'm sure you think you're funny, but to actually answer:

Relentless Rats's ability applies to deck construction. By the time Humility's effect could apply to it, it's beyond irrelevant.

Relentless Rats's ability will override normal constructed rules (4 of a card limit) but not format-specific rules (ex 1 of a card limit in highlander).


Just out of curiosity:

Does Humility make a deck full of Relentless Rats illegal? :smile:
Or does their (second) ability apply "as long as <this> is in your library"?

[Irish_Mafia]

I have Humility in play and my opponent has Wonder. Do the creatures have flying or not?

[cdr]

Well, you know that Humility's effect is layer 5 ("other").

What's Wonder's effect? Not copy, control, text-changing, type-changing, or power/toughness affecting - so also layer 5.

Is there a dependency? Humility's effect can't affect Wonder (it's in the graveyard, not in play) and won't won't change what Wonder applies to, so no.

With two effects that apply in the same layer and no dependency, we are left with straight timestamps.

[Irish_Mafia]

Alright thank you for the speedy response.

[Mordel]

Is an interaction between humility and march of the machines/titania's song/Tezzeret/karn the same as mishras factory and such?

[quicksilver]

Yes, they all set the power and toughness to a specific number so it would apply in time stamp order. That is whichever one came in last would determine the power and toughness.

[MSC]

But don't forget, that Karn no langer has the Ability to make something a Creature under Humility. :wink:

[jazzykat]

The static ability is an alternate cost that is unaffected by Humility (think Vine Dryad). However, the CIP trigger disappears (think Eternal Witness), so the end result is that under Humility, Shriekmaw is a 1/1 for 1B, and will stick around.

OK, this thread is full of questions correct answers (and some maybe correct answers???).

I have questions to doubly clarify:

1 When an eternal witness comes into play do you get to return a card from your graveyard to your hand?

2 When a kitchen finks comes into play do you gain 2 life? (I suppose if 1 is answered then this will be answered as well.)

3 How about when a finks is sent to the graveyard under humility is it just plain dead? Does it come back as a 1/1 with a -1/-1 counter? Or does it persist and create a weird unresolvable gamestate?

4. Do the answers to questions 1-3 change if the creatures:
a. is slid out via Astral Slide,
b. phases in via some weird mirage effect
c. is vialed or pipered in

Thanks

[cdr]

1) No. The ability triggers in play, and it has no abilities in play.

2) No, again.

3) No. "Leaves play" triggers trigger from in play, just like "comes into play". It "just dies".

4a) No.
4c) No.

b is irrelevant, since phasing doesn't trigger "comes into play" or "leaves play" anyway.

I'm not sure where your understanding is lacking, unfortunately. Feel free to ask more general questions so you can hopefully figure out the underlying rules.


OK, this thread is full of questions correct answers (and some maybe correct answers???).

I have questions to doubly clarify:

1 When an eternal witness comes into play do you get to return a card from your graveyard to your hand?

2 When a kitchen finks comes into play do you gain 2 life? (I suppose if 1 is answered then this will be answered as well.)

3 How about when a finks is sent to the graveyard under humility is it just plain dead? Does it come back as a 1/1 with a -1/-1 counter? Or does it persist and create a weird unresolvable gamestate?

4. Do the answers to questions 1-3 change if the creatures:
a. is slid out via Astral Slide,
b. phases in via some weird mirage effect
c. is vialed or pipered in

Thanks

[dahcmai]

Here's a question I know I will run into. I do know how Humility works (I've had to study a lot for it), but if I call a judge during this Chicago Grand Prix that obviously doesn't know how it works, what do I do then? Do I have to call the head judge or is that practical? Do I have a recourse if they are flat wrong, I know it, and can even quote the rule and layer?

It makes a difference since I will be packing Humilities there. I'm sure it's going to come up a lot with me playing Mishra's, Elspeth, and other people playing Magus, Wonder, and Painters. I'm sure someone will call that judge at least once.

People usually ask me about weird rulings like that so I'm not used to having to rely on someone else for a ruling on a card as confusing as Humility. I rarely play in larger events.

[MULocke]

Here's a question I know I will run into. I do know how Humility works (I've had to study a lot for it), but if I call a judge during this Chicago Grand Prix that obviously doesn't know how it works, what do I do then? Do I have to call the head judge or is that practical? Do I have a recourse if they are flat wrong, I know it, and can even quote the rule and layer?

It makes a difference since I will be packing Humilities there. I'm sure it's going to come up a lot with me playing Mishra's, Elspeth, and other people playing Magus, Wonder, and Painters. I'm sure someone will call that judge at least once.

People usually ask me about weird rulings like that so I'm not used to having to rely on someone else for a ruling on a card as confusing as Humility. I rarely play in larger events.

Just like you should never feel bad and avoid calling a judge, don't feel bad about appealing a ruling. Judges are human, and they make mistakes sometimes (especially with a non-mainstream format and a much less popular deck/interaction). It can't hurt to quite the exact rule/layer, but I won't guarantee it will help.

[KrzyMoose]

Here's a question I know I will run into. I do know how Humility works (I've had to study a lot for it), but if I call a judge during this Chicago Grand Prix that obviously doesn't know how it works, what do I do then? Do I have to call the head judge or is that practical? Do I have a recourse if they are flat wrong, I know it, and can even quote the rule and layer?


If you do not agree with a judge's ruling you can (and should) appeal to the head judge. You will be given a time extension. Note that the head judge's ruling is final.

However, if a judge doesn't know the proper ruling, he will (or, at least, should) consult with other judges and get the proper ruling. (Then, obviously, if you disagree with it, you can appeal).

[DireLemming]

Here's a question I know I will run into. I do know how Humility works (I've had to study a lot for it), but if I call a judge during this Chicago Grand Prix that obviously doesn't know how it works, what do I do then? Do I have to call the head judge or is that practical? Do I have a recourse if they are flat wrong, I know it, and can even quote the rule and layer?

It makes a difference since I will be packing Humilities there. I'm sure it's going to come up a lot with me playing Mishra's, Elspeth, and other people playing Magus, Wonder, and Painters. I'm sure someone will call that judge at least once.

People usually ask me about weird rulings like that so I'm not used to having to rely on someone else for a ruling on a card as confusing as Humility. I rarely play in larger events.
It can't hurt if you have a copy of Comprehensive Rules (with problematic sections marked so you can find them quickly) with you. Not so much to correct the judges but rather to save time.

[Aggro_zombies]

Just to confirm my suspicions: if I have a Humility and a Factory (not animated), and my opponent has Progenitus (or DSC), will Progenitus go to the graveyard if I animate my Factory and block it (or kill it any other way)?

I'm thinking that the replacement effect falls in layer five and therefore doesn't exist anymore thanks to Progenitus being humble. It won't check after Progenitus is already deceased, so he'll just chill in the 'yard at that point, right?

[cdr]

You are right. The key thing is that Progenitus has a static ability that creates a replacement effect, so it has to have that ability for the replacement effect to apply when it changes zones.

If it were a triggered ability, like the Incarnations from Lorwyn, it would trigger from the graveyard and therefore "get around" Humility.

Abilities that trigger specifically on going to the graveyard, like Alabaster Dragon's, trigger from in play, so those abilities will not trigger.


Just to confirm my suspicions: if I have a Humility and a Factory (not animated), and my opponent has Progenitus (or DSC), will Progenitus go to the graveyard if I animate my Factory and block it (or kill it any other way)?

I'm thinking that the replacement effect falls in layer five and therefore doesn't exist anymore thanks to Progenitus being humble. It won't check after Progenitus is already deceased, so he'll just chill in the 'yard at that point, right?

[eq.firemind]

Hey people, how Humility interacts with Unearth ability?
As I understood, I'll get 1/1 creature with no CiP abilities and no haste (that's the clear part), but it will go RFG EoT because this effect is created by Unearth ability (means from graveyard) and with Unearth wording, RFGtrigger is not creature's ability (so Humility will not remove it).

Thanks

[Skeggi]

Part of Unearth's ruling:

502.84.Ruling.4 - Removing abilities from the creature will remove Haste, but the replacement and delayed triggers that remove it from the game are not abilities of the creature and cannot be removed. [Shards of Alara FAQ 2008/09/23]
In other words: you understood correct.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

This came up on MWS and I was pretty sure I was right. If there's a creature (I had Lorescale Coatl) that has +1/+1 counters on it, does humility bring it down to a 1/1 no matter how many counters are on it?

I'm pretty sure it'll be a 1/1 then get the bonus for the counters but just want to make sure.

[heroicraptor]

You're correct. Humility is applied in 6b, counters are applied in 6c.

[mossivo1986]

With elspeth's final ability resolved on my board as well as humility and a couple of soldiers my creatures remain indestructable even with humility in play correct?

[heroicraptor]

Correct. Elspeth's final ability modifies the rules of the game as far as your artifacts, creatures, enchantments, and lands are concerned.

[Aggro_zombies]

Okay, so let's say I have a Tidehollow Sculler (or Mesmeric Fiend in play), and there's a card removed from the game by it. My opponent then drops Humility. What happens to the removed card in the following scenarios?

1) Sculler/Fiend leaves play while Humility is still in play.
2) Humility is somehow destroyed, and Sculler/Fiend subsequently leaves play.

If I'm doing this right, in the first case the opponent doesn't ever get his card back. In the second case, the opponent gets his card back, right?

Just looking to confirm this.

[Van Phanel]

*Confirm

[Taurelin]

With the release of M10, the new comprehensive rules contain a revision of the layer-system, thus affecting several Humility-interactions:


612.1a Layer 1: Copy effects are applied. See rule 706, “Copying Objects.”
612.1b Layer 2: Control-changing effects are applied.
612.1c Layer 3: Text-changing effects are applied. See rule 611, “Text-Changing Effects.”
612.1d Layer 4: Type-changing effects are applied. This includes effects that change an object’s card type, subtype, and/or supertype.
612.1e Layer 5: Color-changing effects are applied.
612.1f Layer 6: Ability-adding and ability-removing effects are applied.
612.1g Layer 7: Power- and/or toughness-changing effects are applied.


612.3a Layer 7a: Effects from characteristic-defining abilities are applied. See rule 604.3.
612.3b Layer 7b: Effects that set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value are applied.
612.3c Layer 7c: Effects that modify power and/or toughness (but don’t set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value) are applied.
612.3d Layer 7d: Power and/or toughness changes from counters are applied. See rule 120.
612.3e Layer 7e: Effects that switch a creature’s power and toughness are applied. Such effects take the value of power and apply it to the creature’s toughness, and take the value of toughness and apply it to the creature’s power.


Some examples of new interactions:

- Painter's Servant is no longer shut down by Humility, because its effect applies in an earlier layer than Humility (similar to Magus of the Moon).

- Giant Growth now lies in the same layer as Glorious Anthem, so it will always apply independently from any considerations about timestamps.

[Anusien]

Giant Growth and Glorious Anthem never affected each other.

[Taurelin]

Giant Growth and Glorious Anthem never affected each other.

That's true, but that's not the point.

The point is, that Glorious Anthem has always been in a different layer than Humility, while Giant Growth used to be in the same layer as Humility, thus being affected by timestamp and the like.

Example (old rules):
a) 2/2 Creature in play, first Humility enters play, then Giant Growth is played.
-> 4/4 due to timestamp rule
b) 2/2 Creature in play, first Giant Growth is played, then Humility enters play.
-> 1/1 due to timestamp rule


Now Giant Growth is in the same layer as Glorious Anthem and works similarly.

[heroicraptor]

That's true, but that's not the point.

The point is, that Glorious Anthem has always been in a different layer than Humility, while Giant Growth used to be in the same layer as Humility, thus being affected by timestamp and the like.

The way you said it, it sounded like you thought it did.

[Anusien]

Yes, Humility and Giant Growth's interaction changed. Glorious Anthem and Giant Growth's interaction did not. That was what I was pointing out.

[ykpon]

how about humility + magus of the moon after m10, have it changed somehow? thx

[Anusien]

how about humility + magus of the moon after m10, have it changed somehow? thx


Some examples of new interactions:

- Painter's Servant is no longer shut down by Humility, because its effect applies in an earlier layer than Humility (similar to Magus of the Moon).Read the thread please.

Magus of the Moon applies in Layer 4 and Humility applies in Layer 6. All nonbasic lands will be Mountains.

[Dark_Shakuras]

612.1a Layer 1: Copy effects are applied. See rule 706, “Copying Objects.”
612.1b Layer 2: Control-changing effects are applied.
612.1c Layer 3: Text-changing effects are applied. See rule 611, “Text-Changing Effects.”
612.1d Layer 4: Type-changing effects are applied. This includes effects that change an object’s card type, subtype, and/or supertype.
612.1e Layer 5: Color-changing effects are applied.
612.1f Layer 6: Ability-adding and ability-removing effects are applied.
612.1g Layer 7: Power- and/or toughness-changing effects are applied.


612.3a Layer 7a: Effects from characteristic-defining abilities are applied. See rule 604.3.
612.3b Layer 7b: Effects that set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value are applied.
612.3c Layer 7c: Effects that modify power and/or toughness (but don’t set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value) are applied.
612.3d Layer 7d: Power and/or toughness changes from counters are applied. See rule 120.
612.3e Layer 7e: Effects that switch a creature’s power and toughness are applied. Such effects take the value of power and apply it to the creature’s toughness, and take the value of toughness and apply it to the creature’s power.

So if i'm reading this right, Humility is applied in layer 6 and Layer 7b. My Mishra's Factory is applied in layer 7b, so my 2/2 factory still works because of timestamp correct?

[Maveric78f]

So if i'm reading this right, Humility is applied in layer 6 and Layer 7b. My Mishra's Factory is applied in layer 7b, so my 2/2 factory still works because of timestamp correct?

Of course. That would have been the first comment if that interaction changed.

[baghdadbob]

Read the thread please.

Magus of the Moon applies in Layer 4 and Humility applies in Layer 6. All nonbasic lands will be Mountains.

So both Magus and Painter are shut down by Humility? Is this the final ruling? I kinda need to know pretty badly. Particularly about the painter so I can rework my U/W Painter deck. Thanks!

[Master Shake]

No, Both Magus of the Moon and Painter's Servant take effect even under Humility.

We really need an updated first post so people can get the facts without digging through several pages.

[cdr]

He quoted the answer and then said the opposite, an updated first post isn't going to help much with that.

[baghdadbob]

Now I'm confused... and feel lonely and scared. Please tell me Painter still works with humility in play.

[Master Shake]

He quoted the answer and then said the opposite, an updated first post isn't going to help much with that.

He did do exactly that, but my point is still valid.

[baghdadbob]

....So....yes???

[cdr]

....So....yes???

Do you understand what layers (http://yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#R613.) are? Do you understand what layers type-changing, color-changing, and ability-removing effects are applied in?

[SlopeeJ]

now i am really confused?? 6 layers seriously???? I understand what layers are, but 6+ layers???


http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=4738301&posted=1#post4738301

[Anusien]

To clear things up, Painter's Servant applies in layer 5. Humility applies in Layer 6. First Painter's Servant applies, changing colors. Then Humility applies, removing abilities. So while yes, Humility removes the ability from Painter's Servant, it has already applied. Painter's Servant works under Humility.

[(nameless one)]

My iPhone is going kaput on me and its not letting me do the search here so I apologize if this question is already been answered.


The scenario is that I have Humility in the field. I know that Humility does not affect Painter's Servant. Is it because Painter's Servant's ability is an 'enter the battlefield' ability or the priority layers just simply work out for Painter's Servant?

On the same page, does Humility affect 'enter the battlefield' triggers from other creatures? For example, if I have Humility on the field, does Goblin Matron's 'ETB' trigger trigger or does Humility change Goblin Matron as it enters the field?

Same thing with Silvergill Adept. If there is an active Humility on the field, do I have to pay Silvergill Adept's additional cost?

Thanks!

[Taurelin]

The scenario is that I have Humility in the field. I know that Humility does not affect Painter's Servant. Is it because Painter's Servant's ability is an 'enter the battlefield' ability or the priority layers just simply work out for Painter's Servant?

Painter applies in Layer 5.
Humility's first effect applies in Layer 6.

So when Humility removes Painter's ability, the color-changing has already taken place.


On the same page, does Humility affect 'enter the battlefield' triggers from other creatures? For example, if I have Humility on the field, does Goblin Matron's 'ETB' trigger trigger or does Humility change Goblin Matron as it enters the field?

All triggered abilities "When XY enters the battlefield..." are removed. The creatures are never on the battlefield with their abilities, so they can't trigger.

It's different with cards like Meddling Mage though (and Servant!), because here it says "As...", which is a static ability and part of the resolution of the spell.


Same thing with Silvergill Adept. If there is an active Humility on the field, do I have to pay Silvergill Adept's additional cost?

Yes, because Humility does not affect creature-spells on the stack, only creatures on the battlefield.

You don't get to draw a card when Silvergill EtB (see above), though.

[Odysseus]

does anybody want to be really nice and make a revised description of the layers that shows what common legacy staples apply in what layer. something kind of like this, but with all of them you can think of ? Im sure one of the judges or someone could bang this out in about 5-10 minutes.

layer 1
layer 2
layer 3
layer 4 - magus of the moon,
layer 5 - painter's servant,
layer 6 - humility,

layer 7a
layer 7b - mishra's factory, mutavault
layer 7c
layer 7d
layer 7e

Im thinking it might be easier for some people to understand if the common humility interaction cards were shown visually on a chart like that.

[Julian23]

Totally agree with what Odysseus said. It would be MUCH easier to remember during a tournament.

[dorsch]

layer 1 - Volrath's Shapeshifter
layer 2 - Sower of Temptation, Vedalken Shackles
layer 3 - Alter Reality
layer 4 - magus of the moon, urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth, Mishra's Factory, Tezzeret, Figure of Destiny
layer 5 - painter's servant, Wild Mongrel
layer 6 - humility, Goblin King

layer 7a - Tarmogoyf, Terravore
layer 7b - mishra's factory, Humility, Opalescence, Tezzeret
layer 7c - Umezawa's Jitte, Giant Growth, Wild Nacatl, Knight of the Reliquary, Wild Mongrel, Engineered Plague, Tireless Tribe, Goblin King, Wake Thrasher
layer 7d - Arcbound Ravager, Countryside Crusher, Golgari Grave Troll
layer 7e - Aquamoeba


Layer 1: Copy effects are applied.
Layer 2: Control-changing effects are applied.
Layer 3: Text-changing effects are applied.
Layer 4: Type-changing effects are applied. This includes effects that change an object’s card type subtype, and/or supertype.
Layer 5: Color-changing effects are applied.
Layer 6: Ability-adding and ability-removing effects are applied.
Layer 7: Power- and/or toughness-changing effects are applied.

Layer 7a: Effects from characteristic-defining abilities are applied.
Layer 7b: Effects that set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value are applied.
Layer 7c: Effects that modify power and/or toughness (but don’t set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value) are applied.
Layer 7d: Power and/or toughness changes from counters are applied.
Layer 7e: Effects that switch a creature’s power and toughness are applied. Such effects take the value of power and apply it to the creature’s toughness, and take the value of toughness and apply it to the creature’s power.

[verf]

1 Copy:
2 Control: Sower of Temptation
3 Text:
4 Type: Magus of the Moon
5 Color: Painters Servant
6 Ability: Lord of Atlantis, Goblin King, Humility

7 Size
7a Char Def: Tarmogoyf, knight of the relliquary,
7b Set P/T: Humility, Figure of Destiny, Mishras Factory, Mutavault, Nantuko Monastery, Treetop Village
7c Mod P/T: Engineered Plague, Tribal Lords, Jitte, Tireless Tribe, Kird Ape, Wild Nacatal, Nimble Mongoose, Putrid Imp, Wake Thrasher
7d Counters: Golgari Grave-Troll, Countryside Crusher
7e Switch P/T:

Just a few off the top of my head. I hope all these are correct. Im sure someone will tell me if they are not. :smile:

[dorsch]

Just a few off the top of my head. I hope all these are correct. Im sure someone will tell me if they are not. :smile:
Thanks for the additional cards, but knight of the Reliquary has no CDA, it belongs to layer 7c. If you think about it, you will recognize the ability works like Wild Nacatl rather than Terravore/Tarmogoyf

[verf]

Thats what i thought too. But wasn't for sure so i checked what qualifies for a CDA.

604.3a A static ability is a characteristic-defining ability if it meets the following criteria:
(1) It defines an object's colors, subtypes, power, or toughness;
(2) it is printed on the card it affects, it was granted to the token it affects by the effect that created the token, or it was acquired by the object it affects as the result of a copy effect or text-changing effect;
(3) it does not directly affect the characteristics of any other objects;
(4) it is not an ability that an object grants to itself; and
(5) it does not set the values of such characteristics only if certain conditions are met.

Wild Nacatl is disqualified in number 5. Im not sure what number 4 means exactly maybe that is where it is disqualified as being a CDA?

*After thinking about it the card doesnt "define" its P/T it "modifies" them. So it is actually DQd in the first criteria. And 4 would be like if the card said "all knights are 2/3" and also happens to be a knight itself.

[Nidd]

What exactly happens with Opalescence and Humility in play?

[(nameless one)]

Taken from: http://magiccards.info/ud/en/13.html

10/1/2009: This is the current interaction between Humility and Opalescence: The type-changing effect applies at layer 4, but the rest happens in the applicable layers. The rest of it will apply even if the permanent loses its ability before it's finished applying. So if Opalescence, Humility, and Worship are on the battlefield and Opalescence entered the battlefield before Humility, the following is true: Layer 4: Humility and Worship each become creatures that are still enchantments. (Opalescence). Layer 6: Humility and Worship each lose their abilities. (Humility) Layer 7b: Humility becomes 4/4 and Worship becomes 4/4. (Opalescence). Humility becomes 1/1 and Worship becomes 1/1 (Humility). But if Humility entered the battlefield before Opalescence, the following is true: Layer 4: Humility and Worship each become creatures that are still enchantments (Opalescence). Layer 6: Humility and Worship each lose their abilities (Humility). Layer 7b: Humility becomes 1/1 and Worship becomes 1/1 (Humility). Humility becomes 4/4 and Worship becomes 4/4 (Opalescence).

[Moosedog]

612.1a Layer 1: Copy effects are applied. See rule 706, “Copying Objects.”
612.1b Layer 2: Control-changing effects are applied.
612.1c Layer 3: Text-changing effects are applied. See rule 611, “Text-Changing Effects.”
612.1d Layer 4: Type-changing effects are applied. This includes effects that change an object’s card type, subtype, and/or supertype.
612.1e Layer 5: Color-changing effects are applied.
612.1f Layer 6: Ability-adding and ability-removing effects are applied.
612.1g Layer 7: Power- and/or toughness-changing effects are applied.


612.3a Layer 7a: Effects from characteristic-defining abilities are applied. See rule 604.3.
612.3b Layer 7b: Effects that set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value are applied.
612.3c Layer 7c: Effects that modify power and/or toughness (but don’t set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value) are applied.
612.3d Layer 7d: Power and/or toughness changes from counters are applied. See rule 120.
612.3e Layer 7e: Effects that switch a creature’s power and toughness are applied. Such effects take the value of power and apply it to the creature’s toughness, and take the value of toughness and apply it to the creature’s power.

Ok so I googled How humility works and read some of the thread yesterday. I feel like I have an ok understanding of how it actually does work.

I might just be placing figure of destiny in the wrong category.

My question is this, Figure of destiny first off does he have his abilities to change when there is humility in play?
My thinking is he would because it would be in layer 4 so his creature type would change. Then layer 7 is applies and turns him back to a 1/1. Now if his abilities are there to use with a humility in play and you are able to get up to the point in which he turns into an 8/8 flyer with first strike does he become a 1/1 flyer with first strike? The way I read the card I felt like it was applied the same way Nantuko Monastery is.

[cdr]

My question is this, Figure of destiny first off does he have his abilities to change when there is humility in play?
My thinking is he would because it would be in layer 4 so his creature type would change. Then layer 7 is applies and turns him back to a 1/1. Now if his abilities are there to use with a humility in play and you are able to get up to the point in which he turns into an 8/8 flyer with first strike does he become a 1/1 flyer with first strike? The way I read the card I felt like it was applied the same way Nantuko Monastery is.

Figure of Destiny has no abilities if Humility is in play. There's nothing to activate. The only reason you can activate Nantuko Monastery with Humility in play is that Monastery is not a creature.

The type change would apply before the ability is removed with Humility, but everything else is overwritten by Humility's later timestamp.

[Moosedog]

ok, thanks. That acually makes more sence then what i was thinking.

[Parcher]

The Golgari Grave-Troll has a replacement effect as it enters the battlefield (C.R. 614.1c) to put counters on it equal to the number of creature cards in the player’s graveyard. However, if the Grave-Troll is returned to the battlefield directly from the graveyard by something like Dread Return, the replacement effect to give it counters has to happen before it enters the battlefield (C.R. 614.12). Therefore, the Grave-Troll is still in the graveyard and it counts itself when receiving counters.


So according to the underlined part, if a Dread Returned Troll enters play with a Humility around, it will not have counters?

[luma]

The Golgari Grave-Troll has a replacement effect as it enters the battlefield (C.R. 614.1c) to put counters on it equal to the number of creature cards in the player’s graveyard. However, if the Grave-Troll is returned to the battlefield directly from the graveyard by something like Dread Return, the replacement effect to give it counters has to happen before it enters the battlefield (C.R. 614.12). Therefore, the Grave-Troll is still in the graveyard and it counts itself when receiving counters.


So according to the underlined part, if a Dread Returned Troll enters play with a Humility around, it will not have counters?

It will have counters, because the replacement effect applies before it enters the battlefield (it's replacing "enters the battlefield" with "enters the battlefield with counters"), so Humility doesn't affect it yet. The last part actually says it very clearly: the Grave-Troll is in the graveyard when its replacement effect applies.

[SteakKnife]

Card Name:
Dark Depths
Types:
Legendary Snow Land
Card Text:
Dark Depths enters the battlefield with ten ice counters on it.
3: Remove an ice counter from Dark Depths.
When Dark Depths has no ice counters on it, sacrifice it. If you do, put a legendary 20/20 black Avatar creature token with flying and "This creature is indestructible" named Marit Lage onto the battlefield.

Humility in play, last token removed from Dark Depths causes creature to be put into play.
So just to be certain, Marit Lage would be a legendary 1/1 black Avatar creature without flying but is indestructible?

[Nonex]

It was indestructible with Dark Depths' original wording. Now it isn't.

[SteakKnife]

Thank you Nonex for the answer.


Another question. Humility and Iona.

Card Name:
Iona, Shield of Emeria
Mana Cost:
6WhiteWhiteWhite
Converted Mana Cost:
9

Types:
Legendary Creature — Angel
Card Text:
Flying
As Iona, Shield of Emeria enters the battlefield, choose a color.
Your opponents can't cast spells of the chosen color.

So my understand is that the caster of Iona gets to name a color but that the ability is removed. Correct?

[Malchar]

614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c–d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine how and whether these replacement effects apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield, continuous effects generated by the resolution of spells or abilities that changed the permanent’s characteristics on the stack (see rule 400.7a), and continuous effects from the permanent’s own static abilities, but ignoring continuous effects from any other source that would affect it.

You are correct.

[Tacosnape]

Random question. If I play Show and Tell, I choose Kederekt Leviathan, and my opponent chooses Humility, am I correct in assuming that Kederekt Leviathan's ETB trigger will never happen, as when state-based effects are checked, he's a 'nilla 1/1?

[cdr]

Random question. If I play Show and Tell, I choose Kederekt Leviathan, and my opponent chooses Humility, am I correct in assuming that Kederekt Leviathan's ETB trigger will never happen, as when state-based effects are checked, he's a 'nilla 1/1?

Continuous effects are applied just before Kederekt Leviathan's ETB would trigger. At that point, Humility is also in play, so there's no trigger.


603.6d. Normally, objects that exist immediately after an event are checked to see if the event matched any trigger conditions. Continuous effects that exist at that time are used to determine what the trigger conditions are and what the objects involved in the event look like. ...

[Tacosnape]

Danke. I was almost positive that was right, just couldn't find the rule to confirm it in my mind.:)

[(nameless one)]

If I turned Gideon Jura into a creature under an active Humility, what exactly happens?


Gideon Jura :3::w::w:

Planeswalker - Gideon [ROE]

[+2]: During target opponent's next turn, creatures that player controls attack Gideon Jura if able.
[-2]: Destroy target tapped creature.
[0]: Until end of turn, Gideon Jura becomes a 6/6 Human Soldier creature that's still a planeswalker. Prevent all damage that would be dealt to him this turn.
[6]

Does he lose the prevent damage clause? He is still a 6/6 right?

Also, if I activated Celestial Colonnade into a creature under an active Humility, does it lose its flying and vigilance ability? I do know that it stays a 4/4.

[jrsthethird]

The clause that prevents the damage is not an ability of Gideon, the creature. It's part of the effect that turns him into a creature.

Similar to reanimating a creature by Footsteps. It still dies at the end of the turn because it's part of the spell that put it into play, not an ability of the creature.

[(nameless one)]

So what youre trying to say is that under an active Humility, when Gideon turns into a creature, he will still be 6/6 with the damage prevention clause.

Can I just get a straight answer please? I still havent got an answer for Celestial Colonnade.

[cdr]

So what youre trying to say is that under an active Humility, when Gideon turns into a creature, he will still be 6/6 with the damage prevention clause.

Can I just get a straight answer please? I still havent got an answer for Celestial Colonnade.

It's not rocket surgery. Read the card. His ability creates an effect, it doesn't give him an ability. Humility removes abilities.

The answer for Celestial Colonande is the same as any manland.

[Zhukai]

How does Humility work with the Evoke and Champion abilities? I would think with evoke the creature wouldn't have the ability it normally would but would still end up being sacrificed. No clue how Champion would work.

[cdr]

How does Humility work with the Evoke and Champion abilities? I would think with evoke the creature wouldn't have the ability it normally would but would still end up being sacrificed. No clue how Champion would work.

702.71a. Evoke represents two abilities: a static ability that functions in any zone from which the card with evoke can be cast and a triggered ability that functions on the battlefield. "Evoke [cost]" means "You may cast this card by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost" and "When this permanent enters the battlefield, if its evoke cost was paid, its controller sacrifices it."

No abilities, no sacrifice trigger.

702.69a. Champion represents two triggered abilities. "Champion an [object]" means "When this permanent enters the battlefield, sacrifice it unless you exile another [object] you control" and "When this permanent leaves the battlefield, return the exiled card to the battlefield under its owner's control."

No abilities, no exile trigger.

[Sage]

It was indestructible with Dark Depths' original wording. Now it isn't.

So, with Dark Depths' new wording, I could cast Snakeform on it and block it with a 2/2 creature and it would die?

If this is true, when was the oracle text on Dark Depths changed?

[luma]

So, with Dark Depths' new wording, I could cast Snakeform on it and block it with a 2/2 creature and it would die?

If this is true, when was the oracle text on Dark Depths changed?

It's true, and it changed when Worldwake came out: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/75b&page=2

[Sage]

Thanks for the answer. I guess I should read the mothership articles a little more...

[Taurelin]

It's not really a question, but rather an answer to a question that might show up soon:

Yes, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre is a creature-based answer to Humility (the 1st one I know of).


When you cast Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, destroy target permanent.

You can use this to get rid of Humility, because the ability triggers while the spell is on the stack. Humility only affects creatures, i.e. permanents on the battlefield.

[rockout]

I don't consider an 11 drop an answser to humility but yes the way its worded it says when its cast destroy, target permanent.

[TarmoCombo]

If I have Humility and Dryad Arbor in play, does Dryad Arbor still make mana? PLEASE HELP!!!

[dorsch]

With Humility on the battlefield, Dryad Arbor is a 1/1 Land Creature - Forest Dryad. It is green, but has neither the "~ is green" nor the mana-ability.

[(nameless one)]

I am not sure about this one, so might as well ask:

My opponent has The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and I have a Humility on the field. I also have a couple of creatures in play. Do these creatures have upkeep: :1: or does Humility remove that clause from creatures?

Thanks!

[luma]

The Tabernacle gives creatures the ability, and Humility tries to take it away. Because both effects are in the same layer (and there's no dependency), they are applied in timestamp order. Whichever entered the battlefield last wins.

[cdr]

The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Legendary Land
All creatures have "At the beginning of your upkeep, destroy this creature unless you pay 1."

Tabernacle is an ability-adding effect and Humility is an ability-removing effect, both of which apply in layer 6. Since they're in the same layer, the order they're applied is based on timestamps.

[RexFTW]

Alright RISE OF THE ELDRAZI time. Humility + level up creatures. What happens?

[(nameless one)]

The level up creatures will be 1/1 with no abilities, whether they have level counter on them or not.

Plus, you cannot level them up anymore.

[RexFTW]

The level up creatures will be 1/1 with no abilities, whether they have level counter on them or not.

Plus, you cannot level them up anymore.

are you sure??? i just found this in the official rules:

* Effects that set a leveler's power or toughness to a specific value, including the effects from a level symbol's ability, apply in timestamp order. The timestamp of each level symbol's ability is the same as the timestamp of the leveler itself, regardless of when the most recent level counter was put on it. For example, say Coralhelm Commander is on the battlefield, then Godhead of Awe, which says "Other creatures are 1/1," enters the battlefield. After the second level counter is put on Coralhelm Commander, it will be 1/1 (not 3/3) and have flying, because Godhead of Awe's ability applies last. (If Godhead of Awe entered the battlefield before Coralhelm Commander, on the other hand, then the Commander's ability would apply last and it would be 3/3.)

710.2. A level symbol is a keyword ability that represents a static ability. The level symbol includes either a range of numbers, indicated here as "N1-N2," or a single number followed by a plus sign, indicated here as "N3+." Any abilities printed within the same text box striation as a level symbol are part of its static ability. The same is true of the power/toughness box printed within that striation, indicated here as "[P/T]."

[(nameless one)]

Wow, I guess I am wrong.

Good find!

[hjalte]

are you sure??? i just found this in the official rules:

* Effects that set a leveler's power or toughness to a specific value, including the effects from a level symbol's ability, apply in timestamp order. The timestamp of each level symbol's ability is the same as the timestamp of the leveler itself, regardless of when the most recent level counter was put on it. For example, say Coralhelm Commander is on the battlefield, then Godhead of Awe, which says "Other creatures are 1/1," enters the battlefield. After the second level counter is put on Coralhelm Commander, it will be 1/1 (not 3/3) and have flying, because Godhead of Awe's ability applies last. (If Godhead of Awe entered the battlefield before Coralhelm Commander, on the other hand, then the Commander's ability would apply last and it would be 3/3.)

710.2. A level symbol is a keyword ability that represents a static ability. The level symbol includes either a range of numbers, indicated here as "N1-N2," or a single number followed by a plus sign, indicated here as "N3+." Any abilities printed within the same text box striation as a level symbol are part of its static ability. The same is true of the power/toughness box printed within that striation, indicated here as "[P/T]."

So levelers will always be 1/1 after humility dropped.

If you have a leveler on the table, with level counters, before humility hits, humility will have the most recent timestamp thereby making it 1/1.
If you play a leveler, with humility already on the table, it will not have the level up ability and therefore cannot gain level counters.

[dorsch]

So levelers will always be 1/1 after humility dropped.

If you have a leveler on the table, with level counters, before humility hits, humility will have the most recent timestamp thereby making it 1/1.
If you play a leveler, with humility already on the table, it will not have the level up ability and therefore cannot gain level counters.

You are right, BUT: if there is a humility on the battlefield, then you play a leveler creature and somehow manage to put some level counter on it (leech bonder) it will have the apropriate power/toughness and abilities, but not the level up ability nor any "level 0" abilities

edit: leech bonder wont work, because of humility, instead, imagine humility is phased out, you play the leveler and activate the level up ability some times. Or any other hypothethical way, involving 4+ cards, where humility has an earlier timestamp than the leveler creature and it gets some counter.

[jrsthethird]

But Leech Bonder won't have the ability that lets you switch.

[RexFTW]

Ok, another tough one. My opponent plays Show and tell. He puts terastadon into play and I put humility into play. Does terastadon's come into play trigger happen?

Obviously it would not trigger if humility were already in play.

[Taurelin]

Does terastadon's come into play trigger happen?


No, it doesn't.


603.6a. Enters-the-battlefield abilities trigger when a permanent enters the battlefield. These are written, "When [this object] enters the battlefield, . . . " or "Whenever a [type] enters the battlefield, . . ." Each time an event puts one or more permanents onto the battlefield, all permanents on the battlefield (including the newcomers) are checked for any enters-the-battlefield triggers that match the event.

Show and Tell puts both permanents onto the battlefield at the same time. This means there is never a moment when Terastodon actually has its abilities, so it can never trigger.

[RexFTW]

No, it doesn't.
Show and Tell puts both permanents onto the battlefield at the same time. This means there is never a moment when Terastodon actually has its abilities, so it can never trigger.
I am not sure this is right. Can anyone confirm this?

[cdr]

I am not sure this is right. Can anyone confirm this?

If it wasn't right, it would be corrected and/or deleted within a day.

[Necrogeist]

Since Yixlid Jailer and Humility both apply in Layer 6, if Jailer is played after Humility, is it a 1/1 with no abilities that still manages to make all cards in graveyards lose abilities due to timestamps? That's my understanding of it.

[luma]

Since Yixlid Jailer and Humility both apply in Layer 6, if Jailer is played after Humility, is it a 1/1 with no abilities that still manages to make all cards in graveyards lose abilities due to timestamps? That's my understanding of it.

Yixlid Jailer's effect depends on Humility's effect, because the latter changes the existence of the former. Therefore Humility is applied first, so Yixlid Jailer loses its ability and doesn't do anything.


613.7a An effect is said to “depend on” another if (a) it’s applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect (see rules 613.1 and 613.3); (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect.
613.7b An effect dependent on one or more other effects waits to apply until just after all of those effects have been applied. If multiple dependent effects would apply simultaneously in this way, they’re applied in timestamp order relative to each other. If several dependent effects form a dependency loop, then this rule is ignored and the effects in the dependency loop are applied in timestamp order.

[Burr]

What happens when Nature's Revolt and Humility are in play? Would anything be different if Nature's Revolt cam into play first then Humility or vice versa? Thanks in advance.

[Taurelin]

All lands are creatures.

All lands lose all abilities (in particular, they don't produce mana anymore).

They are
a) 1/1 if first NR entered the battlefield, then came Humility
a) 2/2 if first Humility entered the battlefield, then came NR

[Malakai]

Painter's Servant is in play naming Blue. Opalescence, Humility, a second Opalescence, Enchanted Evening, and Blood Moon are returned to play off a Replenish. What are the super-types, types, p/t, color, and abilities of a Mutavault that was activated before casting Replenish?

P.S. Except for the second Opalescence, this shit actually happened. We decided the game ended in a draw.

[dorsch]

First of all, when replenish resolves, that player has to decide the timestamps for the enchantments, which enter the battlefield simultaniously, even though it only matters for Opalescence and Humility.


This would happen if you have only 1 Opalescence:

613.1a Layer 1: Copy effects are applied. See rule 706, “Copying Objects.”
Nothing
613.1b Layer 2: Control-changing effects are applied.
Nothing
613.1c Layer 3: Text-changing effects are applied. See rule 612, “Text-Changing Effects.”
Nothing
613.1d Layer 4: Type-changing effects are applied. These include effects that change an object’s
card type, subtype, and/or supertype.
Blood Moon, Opalescence, Enchanted Evening, Mutavault
613.1e Layer 5: Color-changing effects are applied.
Painters Servant
613.1f Layer 6: Ability-adding and ability-removing effects are applied.
Humility
613.1g Layer 7: Power- and/or toughness-changing effects are applied.
613.3a Layer 7a: Effects from characteristic-defining abilities are applied. See rule 604.3.
Nothing
613.3b Layer 7b: Effects that set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value are applied.
Opalescence, Humility, Mutavault
613.3c Layer 7c: Effects that modify power and/or toughness (but don’t set power and/or toughness
to a specific number or value) are applied.
Nothing
613.3d Layer 7d: Power and/or toughness changes from counters are applied. See rule 120.
Nothing
613.3e Layer 7e: Effects that switch a creature’s power and toughness are applied. Such effects take
the value of power and apply it to the creature’s toughness, and take the value of toughness and
apply it to the creature’s power.
Nothing

1,2,3: Nothing happens.
4: Enchanted Evening and Opalescence are dependant, so at first each permanent becomes an enchantment, then each enchantment becomes a creature, mutavault becomes a creature and all creature types, each nonbasic becomes a mountain. (timestamps are irrelevant)
5: Painter gives each permanent a color in addition to it's other colors.
6: Since each Permanent on the battlefield are enchantments and because of that everything except opalescence is a creatures, Humility removes each ability from each non-opalescence permanent. (remind, continuous effects that started to apply in earlier layers will continue to apply)
7: nothing except for 7b.
7b: Part of the effects of Humility, Opalescence and Mutavault already started to apply in an earlier layer, it will continue to apply. The activated Mutavault has the earliest Timestamp, so it becomes 2/2. The player who controls Humility and Opalescence choses the Timestamps of these two permanents. So either each (enchantment-creature) permanent becomes first a 1/1 and then everything except opalescence gets p/t equal to its casting cost, or vice versa.

In the end we got:
Enchanted Evening: A blue enchantment, creature with no abilities. Either 1/1 or 5/5.
Opalescence: A blue enchantment with the ability "Each other non-Aura enchantment is a creature with power and toughness each equal to its converted mana cost. It's still an enchantment."
Blood Moon: A blue enchantment, creature with no abilities. Either 1/1 or 3/3.
Humility: A blue enchantment, creature with no abilities. Either 1/1 or 4/4.
Painter's Servant: A blue enchantment, artifact, creature - scarecrow with no abilities. Either 1/1 or 2/2.
Mutavault: A blue enchantment, creature, (nonbasic) land - mountain with all creature types and no abilities (no mana ability or animating). Either 1/1 or 0/0 (and put into a graveyard, next time state based effects are checked.)


If you add a second opalescence, both opalescence would become creatures and lose ther ability (after their ability got applied) Dependant on timestamps, each opalescences would be a blue enchantment, creature with no abilities. Either 1/1 or 4/4.

[Malakai]

Bravo!

[Zhukai]

So I know that control-changing effects are applied before Humility but I was wondering how Preacher would work under it?