[Deck] 5c Eternal Garden [Archive] - Page 2

94teen

10-06-2007, 11:03 AM

Yes, recoup would be there solely for making Nostalgic Dreams good and for encouraging strong intuition piles out of the board.

If you have a Recoup/Nostalgic Dreams pile in the maindeck, it'd be easier to use Intuition to set up a sorcery like Haunting Echoes or Reverent Silence, or even Breakthrough. With the amount of mana you generate, a recoup'ed Breakthrough would fill your hand with all kinds of good stuff.

I'm not saying that this is necessary for the deck, or even necessarily good. It's an option, and this deck is all about options. Recoup is a way to recur another kind of spell, and provides ways to draw cards, which is one thing this deck kinda lacks. Granted, Recoup with anything that costs more than 3 or 4 is probably overkill.

There's lots of good stuff you can potentially use recoup to abuse. Not to say that it's necessary, just that with the amount of mana this deck generates, it'd be easy to make it work.

Some stuff that might be worthwhile:

Conflagarate
Summer Bloom
Reminisce
Haunting Echoes
Breakthrough
Wrath of God
Reverent Silence
Nostalgic Dreams
Concentrate
Harmonize
Ideas Unbound

It'd be easy to splash if we played something like Gemstone Mine or City of Brass. They're not that much worse than duals if only one or so are run, even though duals are better, these allow for easier splashes into multiple colors, along with Mox Diamond.

Also, I think I'm going to test one City of Traitors in place of an Ancient Tomb.

Belgareth

10-06-2007, 11:18 AM

Isn't this bordering the danger of cool things territory.

94teen

10-06-2007, 11:48 AM

Isn't this bordering the danger of cool things territory.

That's why I'm thinking it's worth testing, but probably not going to work. I like nostalgic dreams, but I think making the deck a Recoup/Academy Ruins/Crucible of Worlds engine is too much.

I'm going to test Recoup + Nostalgic Dreams. If by some chance it works out really well, I'll begin testing some other sorceries. I think that it'll be limited to nostalgic dreams though, if that.

Nostalgic Dreams gives the deck some much needed CA and non-land non-artifact recur spells. It's also better than a lot of other options, and I think that it may give you opportunities to lock up the game early by giving you a critical mass of Exploration, StP, Humility, etc.

blitz

10-08-2007, 11:50 PM

alright, since watcher said he's moved on, I'll post his old list and then one of my current lists (he hasn't said if I could post his newer tech, so you'll have to ask him about it).

My version of mine and watchers old list (pre columbus):

5c Eternal Garden

// Lands
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
1 Academy Ruins
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Bayou
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Nantuko Monastery
1 Plateau
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
3 City of Traitors
1 Underground Sea
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Petrified Field

// Creatures
3 Eternal Witness

// Spells
4 Mox Diamond
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
4 Intuition
3 Crop Rotation
4 Exploration
1 Life from the Loam
4 Gamble
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Constant Mists
1 Zuran Orb

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Smokestack
SB: 2 Constant Mists
SB: 3 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 4 Trinisphere
SB: 2 Krosan Grip

Yep.
Eternal witness + volrath stronghold
zuran orb instead of nomad stadium
gamble
barbarian ring
constant mists MD
pithing needle MD
city of traitors instead of ancient tomb
petrified field and gods eye
cycling land instead of horizon

... it was a good list though, before we got hit by hulk flash.

we were just developing it to the point where it would have stayed relevant due to the transformational sideboard that deals with combo. Alas, it died with columbus.

my updated version of that list:

Wicken Garden

// Lands
2 Savannah
1 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Nantuko Monastery
1 Bayou
1 Nomad Stadium
1 Scrubland
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
2 Tropical Island
1 Glacial Chasm
2 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Maze of Ith
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures
1 Eternal Witness

// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Humility
4 Crop Rotation
3 Trinisphere
1 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Nostalgic Dreams
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Life from the Loam
4 Exploration
4 Intuition
1 Constant Mists

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Smokestack
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Constant Mists

Gwu and a very small b splash that has a mininal affect on the manabase.

Cards...

eternal witness/nostalgic dreams/volrath stronghold:

witness + stronghold recurs everything in the deck. This means that once you have it, you can recur all the intuitions, explorations, STPs, etc, which can come in handy against deadguy styled decks which like to rape your hand and your land before you can put down a worthwhile engine. This way, you hold them off with maze and tab and such while either tutoring or dredging into stronghold and witness. Nostalgic dreams does 2 things: recurs ALL the relevant cards in your graveyard, and finishes intuition piles when you only have 1 or 2 of the card you want (eternal witness + nostalgic dreams + humility = you get humility for 3 + 2 or 3 + 4... 9/10 mana is actually cheaper than the 11 from chimes). On top of that, witness itself synergizes with smokestack to both eat a perm and recur something at the same time. Allows you to bump SS up a bit too. Life from the loam and horizon also fill your hand, enabling nostalgic dreams to really be an "I win now" card.

gods eye/city of traitors:

god's eye synergizes with smokestack and glacial chasm. With all 3 on the board along with an exploration, smokestack can be set at 2 without it hitting your land count nor getting in the way of repeat chasm. City of traitors is well... the count I have is 3 city, 1 tomb. I think that having a choice when it comes time to crop rotate is too important to have all just tomb or city. Granted 1 tomb is sustainable and is usually all you'll need in comparison to the amount of relevant colored mana and the cards you'll have in your hand at any one moment, but city has good synergy with crucible, and doesn't hurt us like tomb. I've never had a problem with it that wasn't the fault of sloppy play on my part.

sideboard is pretty obvious. The rest of the stax pieces are there, as well as GY hate and enchantment hate that both double as mirror breakers. Needle is sided in for cases like belcher, vial, disc, deed, etc. 2 extra mists come in during G2 against aggro so i can set up a reactive lock quicker.

Right now, i'm testing 2 things...

...SB -1 Krosan Grip +1 Ark of Blight

G2 answer to decks that needle wasteland or run back up basics. And testing...

...MD -1 Crop Rotation +1 Second Chance

...I dunno, I just want to see what it can do. Infinite turns after you drop below 6 life, keep recurring it with witness + stronghold while building up gods eye tokens to take out the opponent, or some other silly "it ends now" scenario. Trying to see if it's worth it to have an option to just end the game instead of trying to clear their board of threats to swing in with monastery while they somewhat keep the symmetry and look for answers like extirpate, tormods crypt, or pithing needle on academy/volrath/etc. Which also reminds me: having volrath in the deck is the same as having 2 different sets of 2 fetchlands: if one gets needled, the other makes that fact far less painful.

Just thought I'd throw this out there, tell me what you think.

Zach Tartell

10-09-2007, 06:14 AM

I like the idea of 4c, but why not run any black spells? You could sustain stronghold with the moxen, so I'm not sure the scrub and bayou are necessary.

Also, do you find yourself wanting another EE or two? One seems kind of iffy.

blitz

10-09-2007, 06:40 AM

1 is fine, since it gets recurred easily enough. If I need it, I'll tutor for it. And as for black spells, I don't want to overload my black splash, and just having moxen is not enough to guarantee black. The lands are setup so that any fetchland can get black, and all nonbasics with black are also green or white (the 2 main colors).

As for additional black spells, there really isn't anything in black that I want that can't be done better by white or green or blue as far as our gameplan is concerned. Innocent Blood maybe, but I prefer STP.

Belgareth

10-09-2007, 08:20 AM

Hmm interesting, Witness recursion is certainlt something I will test out :)

94teen

10-09-2007, 08:54 AM

Wicken Garden

// Lands
2 Savannah
1 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Nantuko Monastery
1 Bayou
1 Nomad Stadium
1 Scrubland
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
2 Tropical Island
1 Glacial Chasm
2 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Maze of Ith
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures
1 Eternal Witness

// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Humility
4 Crop Rotation
3 Trinisphere
1 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Nostalgic Dreams
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Life from the Loam
4 Exploration
4 Intuition
1 Constant Mists

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Smokestack
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Constant Mists

Gwu and a very small b splash that has a mininal affect on the manabase.

Cards...

eternal witness/nostalgic dreams/volrath stronghold:

witness + stronghold recurs everything in the deck. This means that once you have it, you can recur all the intuitions, explorations, STPs, etc, which can come in handy against deadguy styled decks which like to rape your hand and your land before you can put down a worthwhile engine. This way, you hold them off with maze and tab and such while either tutoring or dredging into stronghold and witness. Nostalgic dreams does 2 things: recurs ALL the relevant cards in your graveyard, and finishes intuition piles when you only have 1 or 2 of the card you want (eternal witness + nostalgic dreams + humility = you get humility for 3 + 2 or 3 + 4... 9/10 mana is actually cheaper than the 11 from chimes). On top of that, witness itself synergizes with smokestack to both eat a perm and recur something at the same time. Allows you to bump SS up a bit too. Life from the loam and horizon also fill your hand, enabling nostalgic dreams to really be an "I win now" card.

gods eye/city of traitors:

god's eye synergizes with smokestack and glacial chasm. With all 3 on the board along with an exploration, smokestack can be set at 2 without it hitting your land count nor getting in the way of repeat chasm. City of traitors is well... the count I have is 3 city, 1 tomb. I think that having a choice when it comes time to crop rotate is too important to have all just tomb or city. Granted 1 tomb is sustainable and is usually all you'll need in comparison to the amount of relevant colored mana and the cards you'll have in your hand at any one moment, but city has good synergy with crucible, and doesn't hurt us like tomb. I've never had a problem with it that wasn't the fault of sloppy play on my part.

sideboard is pretty obvious. The rest of the stax pieces are there, as well as GY hate and enchantment hate that both double as mirror breakers. Needle is sided in for cases like belcher, vial, disc, deed, etc. 2 extra mists come in during G2 against aggro so i can set up a reactive lock quicker.

Right now, i'm testing 2 things...

...SB -1 Krosan Grip +1 Ark of Blight

G2 answer to decks that needle wasteland or run back up basics. And testing...

...MD -1 Crop Rotation +1 Second Chance

...I dunno, I just want to see what it can do. Infinite turns after you drop below 6 life, keep recurring it with witness + stronghold while building up gods eye tokens to take out the opponent, or some other silly "it ends now" scenario. Trying to see if it's worth it to have an option to just end the game instead of trying to clear their board of threats to swing in with monastery while they somewhat keep the symmetry and look for answers like extirpate, tormods crypt, or pithing needle on academy/volrath/etc. Which also reminds me: having volrath in the deck is the same as having 2 different sets of 2 fetchlands: if one gets needled, the other makes that fact far less painful.

Just thought I'd throw this out there, tell me what you think.

It seems like you're testing a lot of things similar to I am. However, I do have some things I do and don't like about that list.

Your mana base seems like it'd be difficult to get the proper colored mana consistently. I see this drawing Savannah and Scrubland when you really want a Tropical Island or some such. THat said, I haven't tested the deck, so I can't know, but it's just a thought. I've been testing a splash too, but mine's red. The thing I've been loving so far is Gemstone Mine. It doesn't hurt you, it's not a real liability because I don't get it until I start recurring Glacical Chasm, so I just sac it to the chasm so I don't worry about counters. It's basically free colored mana in the late game for me, which is good as a back up to Diamonds because then I can set explosives to 0 without worrying.

I really, really like the split between Tomb and City. I've been testing 3 tombs/1 City, and it's been good for me, though now I might do a 2/2 split if it's been working for you.

I don't like God's Eye in the maindeck. I loved it when it was first brought up, but I think if anything it belongs in the sideboard. The build I run has 4 potential win-cons in the main:

Nantuko Monastery
Barbarian Ring
Cephalid Coliseum
Mishra's Factory

That should be more than enough. Other than that, God's Eye gives you a little more resistance to your own smokestack, which is cool and all, but I've been really considering dropping smokestack for something. Chalice maybe? I haven't decided. Granted, you only run a single copy. HOwever, that's when I've found smokestack to be worst. I never want to draw it after the first turn or two. After that I just want to play control and slow them down. Smokestack accomplishes that, sure, but it's best for speedy, turn 2 or 3 locks. I'm really hesistant to drop it becaues of absolutely ridiculous turn 1 potential (City, mox, mox, Smokestack. T2 Crucible, Tomb, Trinisphere is the most recent). But it doesn't seem to be pulling it's weight half the time, and it seems like there should be a better choice somewhere.

I'm not sure if I like Witness + Stronghold over Nostalgic Dreams and Recoup. Yeah, it's better long term, but it also takes longer to get the card you want. Unless you recur a Horizon Canopy or Coliseum, you have to wait until next turn to get it. In your build, NDreams + Recoup would take the same amount of slots, and I think it'd be more efficient in terms of cost, Intuition piles, and speed. Granted, it doesn't allow for cool finishes like Second Chance, and Volrath's Stronghold does give some resiliency to Pithing Needle on Academy, but only if you've dredged your witness already.Besides, what do you do if you dont have Smokestack in play to sac the witness?

That said, you made space for more lands, as well as a few cards I'd been trying to fit in. This is definitely a step in the right direction as far as I'm concerned.

B0W53R

10-09-2007, 03:17 PM

Besides, what do you do if you dont have Smokestack in play to sac the witness?

If there is no smokestack in play, Tabernacle is a great way to get the witness in the yard. Once upon a time, Witness and Stronghold were considered for this deck and dismissed. I believe it was deemed "win more", but if Crystal Chimes is being considered then this road should be revisited. Witness+Humility=Bad. While I like the idea, I just don't know if you really need it.

blitz

10-09-2007, 03:59 PM

B0W53R: yes, it was considered, and dismissed, by watcher. But me and him had different ideas back when we were considering it. I LIKED the idea of witness recursion.

And yes, i forgot to mention tabernacle as a sac outlet =P. If it's between tutoring that and SS though, SS is best (2 birds + 1 stone = money), but if you already have it (likely) you just make use of it.

Humility does stop the engine, but you can sac humility to SS when you need to, or EE at 4 or krosan grip out the side...

The important thing is that you can drop humility without fear of it hardblocking any actions you want to take later on.

On "slowness" of volrath... it's just a matter of using your upkeep to pay for it. You can either draw that one from your library, and it'll be random, or you can draw any card you WANT from your graveyard for 1B,T+1GG. The other way is to use horizon canopy or cephalid coliseum, which isn't so farfetched, since you tend to have those as they are important targets for speeding the deck up.

As for god's eye... it's basically an extra exploration as far as smokestack is concerned. If you have the ability to fetch something other than god's eye, then feel free. If you have a crop rotate, and an SS that needs to be bumped up a tick, this will do it. It basically is in the deck to make SS more effective at shutting down the opponent. An SS at 1 is usually all this deck can afford with a crucible, exploration, and glacial chasm in play(this also allows you to snuff the chasm to the SS), but is also something the opponent too can afford usually. God's eye or another exploration lets you bump it to 2, which is usually enough. Of these 2 things though, which is the more resilient thing to tutor? Exploration can be lost in an intuition pile, and if you don't have witness to recur that, god's eye is the more resilient option with crucible out.

10-09-2007, 09:43 PM

Ok, here's a small tourny report from the EPIC DLD.

You guys should know the list, I've said it 10000 times. But my sideboard was slightly different:

3 Chalice of the Void
3 Meddling Mage
2 Krosan Grip
2 Reverant Silence
2 Tsunami
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle

Awful, I know. But it worked out nicely.

Round 1: Cephalid Breakfast, the exact EPIC list.
Game 1: I'm on the play, and a Crop Rotation falls out of my hand before I start the game, so he has an idea what I'm playing. He leads with a Therapy, and I'm forced to cast Rotation. I don't know what he's playing so I grab another Savannah. Turn 2 he plays Aether Vial and I know, and look at my hand of 2x EE, Swords, and Maze of Ith. I'm sure you have an idea on how this went.
Game 2: He Duresses me turn 1 and takes a Crucible. I attempt a turn 1 Trinisphere but it's forced. He plays a turn 2 Vial and I EE it on my following turn. He gets a Tarmy down but Maze of Ith is better. I stall out drawing a million lands where he keeps playing cantrips, but I stick a Crucible. Eventually he draws a ton of creatures, and I'm staring at Nomad, 2x Tarmogoyf, 2x Quirion Dryad, and a Dark Confidant. I activate Coliseum and draw Tsunami and Crop Rotation. Rotate for Tabernacle, cast Tsunami, wipe his entire board. Good times.

2-0
1-0

Round 2: Nightmare with the fucking card-for-card mirror.
We playtested this matchup a lot out of boredom. It's very gay. Very, very gay. So gay, that we didn't want to subject another to forcing someone to win out this early, so we ID'd.

1-0-1

Round 3: Aluren
Game 1: I keep a rather suspect hand with nothing much except a Top. He keeps a shitty hand as well. This game goes on forever as I Top like 60 times but find nothing of relevance, but God gives me a chance as he casts Aluren and says go for about five turns. Still, the deck hates me this game and I eventually die.
Game 2: I stick a turn 3 Trinisphere, and it is met with a turn 3 Pernicious Deed. Eventually it dies, and I get down Crucible and Exploration, and a Needle. To make a long story short, I draw a lot of removal, Meddling Mages, Humility, and make it impossible for him to combo, and double Monastery beats kills him in final turns.

1-0-2

Great, two draws after three rounds.

Round 4: Reanimator
Game 1: He plays turn 1 Careful Study, pitching Akroma. I play a turn 1 Trinisphere. He doesn't draw another land for a while, and I go absolutely apeshit.
Game 2: He plays a turn 1 Putrid Imp. I play a turn 1 Trinisphere. Awesome. Again, I go apeshit and Wasteland the shit out of his manabase.

2-0
2-0-2

Round 5: Survival (TheBirdMan) with 4 Magus of the Moon and 4 Price of Progress
Game 1: He has a crappy start and does nothing much except Spore Frog beats while I go nuts with Crucible and Exploration, and establish Chasm lock. For some reason though, I continue Chasm lock when I'm at 13 life and his only creature is a damn Spore Frog instead of playing a 2nd white source for the Humility in my hand. He proceeds to drop Magus of the Moon. I kick myself in the face.
Game 2: He gets a strong start with turn 2 Survival, but I have a Krosan Grip ready. Then he gets a turn 3 Magus of the Moon, and I am forced to Intuition for StP and cast it off a Mox. Eventually he beats with Anger and bad creatures while I cast Humility, and have two Monasteries with only 6 cards in graveyard. God hated me this game, as a single card in the graveyard would've won me the game, sitting for 5+ turns with 6 cards.

2-1-2

Awesome, now I'm out of contention.

Round 6: Deadguy
Game 1: I play turn 1 Crucible, turn 2 Smokestack. That shit was hot.
Game 2: I play turn 2 Meddling Mage on Vindicate, turn 3 Chalice for 2. He scooped his cards. That shit was hawt.

3-1-2

It really looks a lot worse than what it was. My deck performed beautifully throughout the entire day sans the first game vs. Aluren and that whole missing threshold thing. I probably wouldn't change a thing in the maindeck, it was just that good.

Some notes on it too:

- Humility is insane. Absolutely insane. Never cut this. Ever.

- Smokestack is also insane. Not as good as Humility, but still insane.

- Sideboard Tsunami is totally cool against 50+% of the metagame.

- SDT isn't as awesome as I hoped, but it was still really good.

- Magus of the Moon is a bitch. I guess part of it was me having trouble finding Riftstone Portal though.

Whit3 Ghost

10-09-2007, 10:13 PM

Note: Against Deadguy, or other resource denial decks, side out Trinisphere. Minus God-Hands, you're running a very real risk of your opponent locking you out under your own 3ball.

94teen

10-10-2007, 12:25 PM

I don't have all of the cards for this together yet, but I'm getting a lot closer. However, if I want to play this at school, I need to replace some of the cards I don't have with some 'inferior' choices. During a few games with the deck, I've been surprised at how well Ensnaring Bridge has been for me in place of Humility and/or Engineered Explosives. Has anyone else considered this card? Anyone else think it might be worth testing?

blitz

10-10-2007, 12:51 PM

94teen

10-11-2007, 08:28 PM

blitz

10-12-2007, 12:06 AM

I agree entirely that UGw is the best color combination for now. Until some bomb comes out in red that can replace Humility and StP, white is a solid color, and easily the best splash.

I'm about to go do some testing with my non-ideal build, and I'll edit this post after I finish with whatever I find.

I do think that Gemstone Mine is a cool little inclusion that allows small splashes into red and/or black. Right now I'm running a singleton Gemstone Mine and a Barbarian Ring. Because they're singletons, they don't disrupt the manabase much, and I can intuition for them when I want to end the game. It's been working for me, but I don't know if anyone else wants to test?

gemstone type cards have been used before, but they aren't good because you have to fetch them with intuition or crop rotation, and don't have a deck thinning quality like fetchlands do. Because all they do is give you colored mana, fetchlands (oh, and having the appropriate dual lands to fetch) were agreed to be the most effective plan as far as color fixing is concerned. You can do just as well with just fetchlands + dual lands. Plus, when you don't have crucible or if your opponent destroys it, gems become a hinderance as they only stay around for a short time. Just ask di, gemstones, city of brass, etc. were tested and what we have now (fetchlands + dual lands + riftstone) is the most effective color fixing this deck can have.

ClearSkies

10-15-2007, 10:39 PM

Is Meddling Mage the only answer this deck has to Armageddon and Catalysm? (Assuming that Crucible of the World doesn't get into play)

blitz

10-16-2007, 05:19 AM

Is Meddling Mage the only answer this deck has to Armageddon and Catalysm? (Assuming that Crucible of the World doesn't get into play)

1 x life from the loam

=D

oh, and mox diamond.

Maveric78f

10-16-2007, 06:14 AM

And it's a huge assumption to consider that crucible of the world doesn't come into play before armageddon or cataclysm is played.

Solpugid

10-18-2007, 03:42 AM

blitz

10-18-2007, 04:27 AM

I've read a good portion of this thread, and (from what I've seen) there has been little discussion about graveyard hate. There is SO much grave-hate these days, directed at ichorid/breakfast/surivival/etc., that this deck will certainly take some splash damage from that. Anyway, to my point:

I haven't had a chance to playtest this deck yet, but it seems to roll over and die if a tormod's crypt is activated at the appropriate time (more so than, say, Lands) or a leyline hits play. Is the solution just to preemptively shut off those effects with needle/trinisphere and/or krosan grip? Or is there something I'm missing that makes this deck more resilient?

This deck lets you play around crypt pretty well as far as the maindeck goes. If that doesn't work, needle and krosan grip are awesome at dealing with needle (and the grip is absolutely cruel, not giving them even a chance to activate once you blast it). And really, I was playing a few games the other day where this guy had a turn 1 tormod... And I just slow played into a constant mists + loam hand and eventually baited him into activation, right afterwards dropping the crucible on the table and rotating for a chasm (I baited him by hardcasting constant mists... he took it as a mistake and activated crypt, allowing me to continue with chasm + crucible instead of loam + mists).

Solpugid

10-18-2007, 06:00 AM

Yes, but that requires baiting and misplays by your opponent. The deck runs a single academy ruins, a single chasm, etc. If those are hit you're in bad shape against a range of decks. Those are the scenarios I'm referring to.

Besides, if that player merely held the crypt he could have played+activated it (without passing priority) to nuke your developed graveyard on a later turn and bypass even grip. When this comes up against threshold, which has a quick clock and counters for your crucibles/3pheres it can become very difficult to fight through the hate.

94teen

10-18-2007, 08:58 AM

Sure, it can be difficult, but by no means impossible. Sure, this is a land based deck, but you don't need to have your graveyard to stabilize. Most of the important cards are 3ofs, so you can intuition for those in a pinch, like Explosives and Crucible. Explosives is especially helpful because it'll let you nuke Leyline and Crypt pre-board. You have to play around it in that you don't want to intuition for lands, or discard good lands off of mox diamond, or dredge LftL too much, but it's not too bad in my experience.

94teen

11-04-2007, 09:05 PM

Sorry about the double-post, but...it's been awhile and I"ve done some more work with this deck that I'd like to put up for discussion.

I'll start with the uncontroversial (I hope) part. I've tuned most of the maindeck to look something like this:

4 Intuition
3 Crop Rotation
3 Crucible of World
1 Life from the Loam
4 Exploration
4 Mox Diamond
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Trinisphere
3 Engineered Explosives

3 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra
1 Academy Ruins
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Maze of Ith
1 Wasteland
1 Nomad Stadium
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Nantuko Monastery
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Mishra's Factory

That's 56 cards. I hope that none of the choices or numbers I've picked are all that controversial or anything, as I feel that this is pretty much standard and agreed upon.

However, the last 4 slots are kinda up for grabs. They can go to Humilities, tops, smokestacks, etc. The most recent thing that I've decided to try out is the Rings of Brighthearth + Time Vault combo. This deck has always had inevitability, but this takes it to a new extreme, I feel. This gives you ways to randomly win, and gives you a way to race random people if you don't have time to lock them down. This also makes your victory more immediate. As soon as you play these two together, you win. Period. You can't deck yourself because of Academy Ruins, you can draw as many cards as you want, win however you want, etc.

Basically, I'm testing this out for the random "oops I win" factor.

I realize that it's probably easier to just run Humility and the like, but I think that this combo could be really good in a stax-esque shell, and this is the Prison deck I'm most familiar with. Basically, I'm just jamming this in here to see how it would work out.

However, there are a couple of other directions that I feel these four slots could go, and I think that these slots really define what the deck is, especially because of the amount of tutoring available to the deck. Some configurations I've considered:

1 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Humility

This encourages a control-oriented build that nullfiies opposing creatures and then wins the long game

3 Smokestack
1 Maze of Ith

This encourages a more prison based approach, dropping lock pieces as quickly as possible so that you have as long as you want to set up your win.

2 Time Vault
2 Rings of Brighthearth
Combo-ish approach I'm testing.

I haven't had much chance to test recently, but the format is shifting away from combo and towards aggro, which is a good thing for this deck, so i figured I would try to promote some discussion by posting a controversial idea and bumping the thread.

Hopefully there are still some other people interested in this deck!

'Teen

ClearSkies

11-04-2007, 10:15 PM

So minus the Time Vault-Ring "win" condition, the only win condition that list has is just one Mishra's Factory and a Nantuko's Monastery?

Have you run out of time before?

11-04-2007, 11:54 PM

So minus the Time Vault-Ring "win" condition, the only win condition that list has is just one Mishra's Factory and a Nantuko's Monastery?

Have you run out of time before?

Finding the win conditions really isn't hard to do, but yes the deck will go to time more than you'd like. But between Crop Rotation, Intuition, Loam, Coliseum, and Top, you can find what you want pretty easily.

I haven't had much chance to test recently, but the format is shifting away from combo and towards aggro, which is a good thing for this deck, so i figured I would try to promote some discussion by posting a controversial idea and bumping the thread.

Given that, I'm surprised I didn't see Constant Mists mentioned in your post.

Now, I haven't tested this deck in a little while as I have some new stuff to work on, but as far as new "win conditions" go, I think the best is by far Garruk Wildspeaker. He screams abuse in this deck. I feel something like this is the ideal deck to use a Planeswalker in, and he fits so well. Untapping lands, generating tokens, overrunning your manlands, it's just so tempting. Time Vault combo I dislike because you not only have 2 of each piece, but they are generally awful by themselves. Vault would be ok with Smokestack if it weren't for the fact that Smokestack is out of the deck to fit Vault in, so that rules that out. Rings isn't all that bad by itself considering the interesting combos it'd have with Maze of Ith, Coliseum, Stadium, Wasteland, etc, but it still doesn't fit. It has a "win more" kind of feeling to it. But seriously, if you're testing this deck out right now, give Garruk a shot. I think he's really interesting.

blitz

11-05-2007, 05:05 AM

Finding the win conditions really isn't hard to do, but yes the deck will go to time more than you'd like. But between Crop Rotation, Intuition, Loam, Coliseum, and Top, you can find what you want pretty easily.

Given that, I'm surprised I didn't see Constant Mists mentioned in your post.

Now, I haven't tested this deck in a little while as I have some new stuff to work on, but as far as new "win conditions" go, I think the best is by far Garruk Wildspeaker. He screams abuse in this deck. I feel something like this is the ideal deck to use a Planeswalker in, and he fits so well. Untapping lands, generating tokens, overrunning your manlands, it's just so tempting. Time Vault combo I dislike because you not only have 2 of each piece, but they are generally awful by themselves. Vault would be ok with Smokestack if it weren't for the fact that Smokestack is out of the deck to fit Vault in, so that rules that out. Rings isn't all that bad by itself considering the interesting combos it'd have with Maze of Ith, Coliseum, Stadium, Wasteland, etc, but it still doesn't fit. It has a "win more" kind of feeling to it. But seriously, if you're testing this deck out right now, give Garruk a shot. I think he's really interesting.

Yeah, I've been tinkering with him actually, and here's my conclusion: He's hard to cast when he'd actually be useful (aka: early game), and while he can work as a win condition, I'd rather just play barbarian ring or nantuko monastery, cuz at least the ring/monastery can't be countered. Granted, he's great to have, but wasting a 2U spell to play a 2GG planeswalker that dies to wide assortment of things is really risky =\ Especially considering he doesn't end the game by himself. Well, he does, but he doesn't do anything to disrupt combo, and he can't get the beast beats in quickly enough. But, when he was good (usually in opening hand that was land heavy with an exploration), he was VERY good. So, if he's working for you, cool. I'll be over here, sitting on a fence.

On the other hand I have to say that... I'm starting to miss gamble, if only for this reason: It, along with intuition and crop rotation, allows us to consistently get the lock out by turn 2 or 3. If not, getting a life from the loam atleast gives us a way to dredge into threshold so our stadiums and coliseums and monasteries can actually start doing stuff. The best and most played combo decks in the format die to our aggro lock. That's hilarious, and probably can be taken advantage of. We can let go of our stax shells (sideboarding them instead like before) and have slots free to make the lock more resilient to hate, and quicker to stabilize. Faster stability = less games going to time, as well. So 2 birds, 1 stone. ^_^

I'm thinking my current list with some stack pieces taken out, humility and garruk added, just to test.

94teen

11-05-2007, 07:57 AM

Garruk seems really cool to me, but I really don't like it that much. It seems like you wouldn't get it or be able to cast it when it counts, and that by the time you'd be able to play it, it wouldn't do enough. Granted, I haven't played with Planeskwalkers yet because of school, but still, he just doesn't seem that good to me.

Di,
I agree completely about the Ringvault combo. When I first saw it my reflex was to build a blue stax deck based on some of the same principles of this deck (Academy Ruins, Intuition, Crucible, Cephalid Coliseums). That build ran some Mizzium Transreliquats over Rings because Transreliquat actually did something. I agree completely that it'd be better with smokestack, tanglewire, or something of the sort, but I'm not sure where to get that kind of space, as the decklist is pretty tight.

Really, the reason I threw the combo in here was because I've had lots of problems ending games before I run out of time. This gives you a way to say, pretty definitively, game over, and with the amount of cards you draw per turn, and academy ruins, it isn't too hard to find it and set it up.

Constant Mists isn't in because I've seen a surprising lack of wasteland in the decks I've been looking at. If people start to pack wasteland again, I'll start playing mists, but until then, I don't see a reason to take up slots in the maindeck needlessly.

Blizt,

I really liked gamble while I played the red splash. However, I really don't think splashing red will work as the deck is now. You'd have to rework the manabase a lot, and then make space for Gamble, B. Ring, etc. While I like Barbarian Ring and the like, I can't see making space for all of them.

blitz

11-05-2007, 01:57 PM

Blizt,

I really liked gamble while I played the red splash. However, I really don't think splashing red will work as the deck is now. You'd have to rework the manabase a lot, and then make space for Gamble, B. Ring, etc. While I like Barbarian Ring and the like, I can't see making space for all of them.

If it's one thing a LAND deck can do, it's mana fixing. So yeah, 3 colors isn't asking much here, especially for you if you haven't seen any wasteland.

94teen

11-05-2007, 02:20 PM

If it's one thing a LAND deck can do, it's mana fixing. So yeah, 3 colors isn't asking much here, especially for you if you haven't seen any wasteland.

I think you're stretching the mana base to the point of color screw. I also don't feel like there's space in the maindeck for it, but if you've found space I'd love to see how, as I really like gamble in the deck.

EDIT:

I'm liking the Ringvault combo here, though I'm thinking of dropping to 1 Time Vault, as multiples show up far too often. This gives you a way to 'just win' a lot more times than I thought it would, and is actually really easy to set up, especially because of City of Traitors. Recurring sources of 2 mana make it surprisingly easy to generate 7 mana in one turn, especially if you land exploration early.

Rings of Brighthearth are useful on their own for copying Coliseum and Maze and such, so they don't really hurt your gameplan, and actually help with the lack of slots a bit. I've been wanting to fit extra mazes and such in the deck for awhile, and this gives you the option. This also copies Coliseum and all kinds of other good stuff, but without requiring you to use up your land drops. This means you can effectively double (or triple with two Rings) the number of effects you get per land drop. This is huge, especially because this deck can produce that kind of mana.

The one thing that I'm really torn about right now is whether or not to go to a 2/2 split of Tombs and Cities. If you get a crucible, City is by far the better of the two in my experience. However, it also makes you a lot more vulnerable to FoW, because if you keep a crucible/city of traitors hand, and the crucible gets FoWed, there's not a whole lot you can do, because that kills your tempo and mana production for the next few turns.

Regardless, I do recommend testing the Ringvault combo a bit. Maybe it just fits my playstyle or something, but I really like it here.

EDIT (again):

Anyone considered Scrollrack here? I know it's not as efficient as top, but since I find myself digging for specific cards, it could be helpful, especially if you can't get Crucible online.

blitz

11-10-2007, 05:02 PM

I think you're stretching the mana base to the point of color screw. I also don't feel like there's space in the maindeck for it, but if you've found space I'd love to see how, as I really like gamble in the deck.

EDIT:

I'm liking the Ringvault combo here, though I'm thinking of dropping to 1 Time Vault, as multiples show up far too often. This gives you a way to 'just win' a lot more times than I thought it would, and is actually really easy to set up, especially because of City of Traitors. Recurring sources of 2 mana make it surprisingly easy to generate 7 mana in one turn, especially if you land exploration early.

Rings of Brighthearth are useful on their own for copying Coliseum and Maze and such, so they don't really hurt your gameplan, and actually help with the lack of slots a bit. I've been wanting to fit extra mazes and such in the deck for awhile, and this gives you the option. This also copies Coliseum and all kinds of other good stuff, but without requiring you to use up your land drops. This means you can effectively double (or triple with two Rings) the number of effects you get per land drop. This is huge, especially because this deck can produce that kind of mana.

The one thing that I'm really torn about right now is whether or not to go to a 2/2 split of Tombs and Cities. If you get a crucible, City is by far the better of the two in my experience. However, it also makes you a lot more vulnerable to FoW, because if you keep a crucible/city of traitors hand, and the crucible gets FoWed, there's not a whole lot you can do, because that kills your tempo and mana production for the next few turns.

Regardless, I do recommend testing the Ringvault combo a bit. Maybe it just fits my playstyle or something, but I really like it here.

EDIT (again):

Anyone considered Scrollrack here? I know it's not as efficient as top, but since I find myself digging for specific cards, it could be helpful, especially if you can't get Crucible online.

I could see the rings speeding things up a bit, and the combo with vault is hilariously fitting, but I think it's still a cool thing and not a serious one.

94teen

11-11-2007, 05:26 AM

Rings are definitely fun. They give the deck the second Maze, Wasteland, Colorfixing, etc that I've been trying for, and at a moderate cost. I really, really like it, and am going to keep testing it. Using ring in conjunction with City of Traitors and Cephalid Coliseum is all kinds of fun. I won't complain about drawing 12 cards and finding Time Vault.

Time Vault is...very hit and miss. But not as much as smokestack. Smokestack always either won the game or sat there doing nothing. More often than not it did nothing for me. Time Vault wins when you get it. I'm seriously considering dropping it down to one though. You have the means to recur it until it sticks, and if they're wasting resources to get rid of it, it's easier for you to continue applying pressure.

The most trouble I've had is getting the most effect out of my plays without consuming land drops. More land drops makes it much easier to control and win, and Rings give you (effectively) more.

I'm pretty sure Rings are going to be in my final list for the time being. Not so sure about Time Vault, especially as a 2 of.

blitz

11-15-2007, 11:07 AM

94teen

11-15-2007, 11:25 AM

I've been liking it because it gives me what are essentially additional copies of lands I've been wanting more copies of, but it doesn't take up deck slots or land drops.

I'm actually thinking of going up to three until I decide whether it's good enough or not, so that I can intuition for three copies if I want one.

Silverdragon

11-18-2007, 12:45 PM

From http://www.zkforum.de/showpost.php?p=507370&postcount=99
8. Platz: Christian Schäfer mit UG Lands.dec

Main:

3 Intuirion
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Tolaria West
1 Capsize
1 Upheaval
1 Deep analysis
3 Life from the Loam
1 Forbid
3 Trinket Mage
3 Eternal Witness
4 Exploration
1 Regrowth
1 Genesis
1 Manabond
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Phyrexian Furnace
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Senseis Divining Top
4 Mishras Factory
4 Tropical Island
2 Forest
2 Island
3 Wasteland
3 Tranquil Thicket
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept HEath
1 Wooded Footfills
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Glacial Chasm
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Academy Ruins

Board:

2 Propaganda
2 Trygon Predator
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormods Crpyt
1 Zuran Org
1 Root Maze
1 Gaeas Blessing

I think that list was incredibly tuned for the metagame that day. What do you think?

ClearSkies

11-18-2007, 01:04 PM

That is certainly an interesting looking list. I suppose you couldn't find any reports that go with it right? It did only get 8th place. So even though it was tuned for the metagame that day,apparently, it wasn't enough.

Some noticable cards missing were:
- Crop Rotation
- Mox Diamond
- Maze of Ith

The list looks like some kind of Eternal Garden and 43 land hybrid...

94teen

11-18-2007, 02:30 PM

It's definitely interesting. I've been advocating Gifts Ungiven in this deck for awhile, so it's a little gratifying to see it being sucessful somewhere.

That said, there are a lot of seemingly random singletons that seem...out of place. Genesis? Trinket Mage? Seems like there are better ways to accomplish that if it's really that necessary for the deck.

That said, Vroman had a really cool build here:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6798

and I think I'm going to try to do something about hybridizing these three decks. There's a lot of cool stuff going on here, all revolving around the Life from the Loam archetype.

There's a pure control deck, lock deck, aggro-control hybrid, and combo control, and there has to be some kind of balance between them that can be struck that accomplishes the most.

Belgareth

12-23-2007, 01:19 PM

Has everyone stopped work on this deck ?

This list isn't exactly 5c Garden but it's similar and t8'd in Speyer Germany (42 man tourny)

Christan Schäfer

Main:
4 Engineered Explosives
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Phyrexian Furnace
3 Eternal Witness
4 Exploration
1 Manabond
1 Genesis
3 Life from the Loam
3 Trinket Mage
2 Intuition
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Capsize
1 Forbid
1 Upheaval
1 Academy Ruins
4 Mishras Factory
4 Wasteland
2 Island
4 Tropical Island
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Forest
1 Flooded Strand
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Maze of Ith
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Polluted Delta
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Windswept Heath
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Riftstone Portal

Board:
2 Trygon Predator
2 Krosan Grip
2 Propaganda
1 Zuran Orb
1 Tormods Crpyt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Chaice of the Void
1 Energy Flux
4 Leyline of the Void

Not perfect imo, but certainly shows the archetype can do well.

blitz

12-23-2007, 06:51 PM

still kinda tinkering with it, just haven't posted anything.

I've been thinking about forbid a lot, and have a few variations saved away that try to abuse it in the garden shell. The list you posted looks like someone took eternal garden, and gutted all the stax pieces for witness recursion and trinket mage tool box, and changed out the intuition engine for a few gifts ungiven packages.

I haven't been spending too much time on it though... been having too much fun making casual warp world decks =D

94teen

12-24-2007, 11:34 PM

I've been having a lot of success lately with Ensnaring Bridge. It stops Tarmogoyfs and whatnot cold. It doesn't do anything against storm combo, but comes down quickly and shuts down threshold completely, as well as a lot of other aggro and controllish decks. It makes winning with Manlands difficult, but I've changed the deck around slightly.

I play Libraries over tops now, because of the synergy with Words of Wilding and War. Right now I only play words of wilding and was hoping to abuse its synergy with smokestack, but I don't have smokestacks at school, so I was playing Bridges instead, and they've worked out beautifully.

94teen

01-19-2008, 09:10 PM

Morningtide has brought quite a few cards that push the non-basic land theme that this deck thrives on, so I thought I would try to start some discussion.

In no particular order:

Mutavault, which is clearly ridiculous, especially due to synergy with Mishra's Factory. This is almost definitely going to be finding space in my deck, along with a few extra copies of mishra's factory. This synergy, as well as this decks ability to tutor up whatever lands you need helps to shut down aggro and provide a method of winning. This card is more of a bomb in 43land.dec or Landstill, but I think it's powerful enough to be included here as well.

Recross the Paths

Is an additional tutor and accelerant. Not as good as intuition, but still worth considering, especially since the typical cmc of a nonland card in this deck will be higher than that of, say, threshold, so you have a halfway decent chance of winning the clash, especially with SDT or Sylvan Library. Again, nothing ridiculous, but worth considering.

Scapeshift

This card makes me giddy. With crucible and exploration to replay all your lands and rebuild your board position, this card is begging to be broken in half. I don't know if this is going to be the deck to do it, but there are so many nonbasics in legacy that there has to be a way to abuse this.

Again, there's nothing huge in morningtide, but hopefully this will help jumpstart some discussion for this deck. Some cards I've been testing with pretty good results that also might be good for discussion:

Rings of Brighthearth
Acts as a second copy of everything and enables a Time Vault based win condition. Copying Cephalid Coliseum effects, Maze of Ith Effects, Horizon Canopy Effects, etc is really, really good when you play lands like City of Traitors and Ancient Tomb.

Ensnaring Bridge
Stops Tarmogoyfs and stuff like Mossnought and Cephalid Breakfast dead, with a good chance of killing aggro in the late game.

Words of Wilding
Strong win condition + crazy smokestack enabler with Sylvan Library

Words of Wind
You can replay your hand. Other people can't. Plus it bounces your ensnaring bridges so you can attack.

Mouth of Ronom (one or two snow basics in addition)
More often than not, you can get this out early enough to kill tarmogoyfs so you can save STPs and explosives for the scarier stuff.

EDIT:

Hoofprints of the Stag? It's kinda ridiculous with Coliseum and Horizon Canopy recursion, as well as sylvan library

Espenhein

02-04-2008, 04:24 PM

How exactly do you play this list.? Can someone give me a guide through some of the important interactions and a list of the good matchups and such. It looks like a very interesting deck, but I need a deeper understanding of the deck.

Main:

3 Intuirion
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Tolaria West
1 Capsize
1 Upheaval
1 Deep analysis
3 Life from the Loam
1 Forbid
3 Trinket Mage
3 Eternal Witness
4 Exploration
1 Regrowth
1 Genesis
1 Manabond
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Phyrexian Furnace
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Senseis Divining Top
4 Mishras Factory
4 Tropical Island
2 Forest
2 Island
3 Wasteland
3 Tranquil Thicket
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept HEath
1 Wooded Footfills
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Glacial Chasm
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Academy Ruins

Board:

2 Propaganda
2 Trygon Predator
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormods Crpyt
1 Zuran Org
1 Root Maze
1 Gaeas Blessing

Hope someone will help

Adan

02-06-2008, 09:46 AM

Christian Schäfer T8'ed again by the way:

Christian Schäfer: The Perfect Loam

Main:

4 Wasteland
4 Forest
3 Maze of Ith
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
3 Tranquil Thicket
2 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Cabal Pit
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Academy Ruins
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Volraths Stronghold
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Mishras Factory

4 Dark Confidant
2 Eternal Witness

4 Mox Diamond
4 Life from the Loam
4 Exploration
3 Intuition
1 Manabond
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives

Board:
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Krosan Grip
2 Trygon Predator
3 Trinket Mage
1 Tormods Crypt
1 Meekstone
1 Pithing Needle
1 Zuran Orb

The coolest thing is that it abused Eternal Witness-Volrath's Stonrghold to utilize Intuition as a triple-tutor. That's why things like Manabond are just there as a 1of.

In some of his lists he also ran Upheaval (gamewinning with Manabond).

But I can't say much about the deck itself, except that I find this Land.dec-archetype extremely gay.

Windux

05-04-2008, 03:14 AM

// Lands
1 [LRW] Forest (1)
1 [JU] Riftstone Portal
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [TE] Wasteland
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [JU] Nantuko Monastery
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
1 [OD] Nomad Stadium
1 [DIS] Ghost Quarter
3 [B] Tropical Island
2 [B] Taiga
3 [B] Savannah
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

// Creatures
1 [FD] Eternal Witness

// Spells
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [US] Smokestack
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [US] Exploration
2 [LG] Sylvan Library
2 [TE] Humility
4 [TE] Intuition
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
3 [JU] Burning Wish

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [TO] Nostalgic Dreams
SB: 1 [TO] Devastating Dreams
SB: 1 [PT] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 1 [FD] Rude Awakening
SB: 1 [US] Gamble
SB: 1 [PS] Hull Breach

This is the Build im going to play today.
I edit a report after the tournament.

What would you change?

Pulp_Fiction

08-21-2008, 03:42 PM

I have no idea if anyone plays this deck anymore but I have built some kind of 42 Land and Eternal Garden hybrid type deck and it is quite good. I have no idea where to post this list but since it looks nothing like 42 Lands this seems like the thread to post in. I also have been meaning for a while to post this list so without further introduction here is the list:

4x Burning Wish
4x Mox Diamond
3x Life From the Loam
4x Exploration
4x Manabond
3x Crop Rotation
2x Crucible of Worlds
3x Gamble

1x Nomad Stadium
1x Savannah
1x Forest
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Tabernacle
3x Maze of Ith
3x Treetop Village
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory
1x Ghost Quarter
3x Taiga
2x Windswept heath
2x Wooded Foothills
1x Nantuko Monastery
1x Riftstone Portal
1x Horizon Canopy
3x Tranquil Thicket

Sideboard

1x Worm Harvest
1x Armageddon
1x Shattering Spree
1x Life From the Loam
1x Flame Jab
1x Devastating Dreams
1x Gaea's Blessing
1x Reverent Silence
1x Gamble
3x Krosan Grip
3x Ghostly Prison

This deck is really solid. I have taken it to my local tournament 3 times and made top 8 twice and split top 4 the other. This deck doesn't have to many bad matchups aside from combo. I got to play against 2 Thresh decks the other night and it was great! But in the end I just couldn't dredge into anything. Half the fucking deck is land and three turns in succession here is what I dredged Manabond, Manabond, Crucible; then Exploration, Burning Wish, Heath; then Crucible, Maze of Ith, Loam all while staring at double Negator and double Shade. I almost won against Mono Black Suicide .... something in the top 8 but the deck just wasn't being nice to me that night. Aside from my fairly bad luck this deck was performing at a very sub-par level contrary to its full potential and still made it to the top 8 of a tournamment with a field of 31ish people. Thoughts?

TheLion

08-21-2008, 04:01 PM

Eternal Garden is just a blast to play... alway fun...

I'm currently testing a version with 3 Devastating Dreams... They just win the games against aggro. They are just amazing.

I like the list Windux posted more, than yours :-P.

Burning Wish seems to be a solid choice... Never tested it though.

morgan_coke

09-04-2008, 09:18 PM

I think Tezzeret is broken beyond belief in half and sideways. He casts weak, repeatable "tinkers" without the spell, mana, or artifact. Plus he wins the game and double voltaic keys.

I think Garden is the existing deck that accommodates tez the best.

Not sure what the list would look like yet, but Tezzeret either solidifies your board/lock position or untaps some random artifacts then overruns the next turn. Provides mana from mox diamonds and can find important stuff like Crucible if you need it.

Maveric78f

10-20-2008, 06:01 AM

The way we play the deck in France really differs from the lists I can see here. Our EG archetype is GU based with w/r or both splashes for armageddon, and the threshold lands. We don't like burning wish for instance because the deck needs a real SB and burning wish will not improve his bad MUs (tendrils combos and burn first of all).
We do not play humility neither because maze of ith already deals with big creatures, and because WW is too difficult to guarantee. But I admit that tool box creatures can be sometimes an issue (gaddock teeg, magus of the moon, harmonic sliver, etc...)
Our builds are far more LD oriented with either armageddon or smokestack MD in multiple.

Well actually, at reading this thread, this archetype is not really one. Everybody is playing a different deck. So I'll come up with my EGstax list:

Lands (only 30):
4 maze
1 tabernacle
1 glacial chasm
3 mishra
3 tropical island
1 savannah
1 taiga
1 forest
4 windswept heath
4 wasteland
1 barbarian ring
1 nomad stadium
2 horizon canopy
2 academy ruins
1 city of traitors

Tutors 7:
4*intuition
3*crop rotation

Engine 9:
4*crucible
4*exploration
1*life from the loam

Stax 14:
4*mox diamond
3*trinisphere
3*smokestack
1*EE
3*Rushing river (comboes so well with stax, and the sacrifice of a land is never an issue)

SB:
4*Krosan Grip
4*Chalice
3*meddling mage
1*tormod's crypt
2*EE
1*Zuran Orb

Just play stax as soon as you can. If your opponent tries to race you, then keep raising the counters and eventually, you'll bounce it with rushing river before having to pay yourself for the upkeep. Then on your next turn, you'll play it again and you'll leave it with 1 counter in order to lock your opponent. If your opponent does not try to race you, then leave the srtax with 1 counter and try to find some recursion, or keep playing permanents.

Gaddock teeg and magus of the moon remain the main threats for this deck, but MD rushing river helps a lot against them. Extirpate and tormod's crypt will be dealt with chalice and krosan grip after SB.

The SB is devoted to rape combo and control mainly.

Tezzeret could be good but I think, but UU is always complicated to gather and 5CC is a bit expensive, it would come into play sometimes too late.

Pulp_Fiction

10-22-2008, 01:38 AM

The French versions are totally different than the American versions of Eternal Garden. Most Garden builds in America run red for Burning Wish and generally neglect blue altogether. I have no idea what the French metagame is but it seems like Leyline of the Void is not commonplace over there. That is one of the main reasons for BWish, to get Reverent Silence for Leyline and Blood Moon or some kind of Flame Jab/Pyroclasm effect for Magus of the Moon. Same with Life From the Loam, after it gets Extirpated you can just Wish it back. I am starting to think 4x Crucible of Worlds might be the way to go though. I am really liking that card in the main but 4x just seems like to many. I also love Intuition in the deck and it may be going in my build in the place of Gamble but for now I prefer Gamble.

Smokestack is also an interesting choice. I never thought to play that in this deck, I always thought that between Wasteland and Ghost Quarter recursion it disabled your opponent's mana fast enough then clears to board with Tabernacle. EE and Academy Ruins would probably be worth playing blue alone though. The ability to recur Crucible and EE just sounds great.

Maveric78f

10-22-2008, 03:29 AM

The main reason for blue is clearly intuition which is the best tutor for loam decks (with burning wish). In my deck it's almost a universal tutor, since all my spells are at least in *3 (the exception is EE). The good thing also about my build is that you can win under a moon lock thanks to stax and crucible. You can get LftL extirpated or tormoded easily, but that's not really an issue because you play crucible, and you prefer to use crucible than LftL obviously. Honnestly, Leyline is not really a problem because you can bounce it (and your oppponent won't probably play it back), grip it, while you control what you put to graveyard. Unexpected extirpates and tormod crypts are more an issue. Ghost quarter recursion is too slow and deals only with lands, when you need sometimes to deal also with creatures, or enchantments.

Ps : you forgot it but at some point, the lists were closer to the one I play now: http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3668&page=9

Watcher487

10-30-2008, 10:50 AM

You seem really confidant in your list. And, I like it very much as well. I even think this is better than 43 land. I searched the entire post for the same topic of discussion i'm going to deal with next and i couldn't find anything.

I can't help but notice how similiar the deck is to 43 land (and i'll tell you why in a moment) How do you fare against Dragon Stompy???

Some lists have no basics others have very few. You do have pyroclasm or other junk of the sort. But, doesn't a 1st turn Magus of the Moon or Blood Moon fuck you over real bad. That's a rhetorical question. IT DOES. Until these decks disappear off the face of the map, dragon stompy will continue to played at a local shop near you...

kk

Can we get some match-up analysis vs. Dragon Stompy? I played aprox. 10 games and DS won 10/10. LOL How do you like them numbers.

First off, I'd make the suggestion of looking over the past 2 pages of posts. Note the date of most of the posts. 2007. The deck's heyday was before Magus of the Moon was played heavily. And alot of the lists posted here are not meant for that type of metagame in the first place. Current 'American' versions of the deck don't normally see alot of play due to a poor combo match-up and a so-so Dreadstill match-up. Versions I have been working on are U/G/R and U/G/R/w in build (no Burning Wish in either). The deck can surprise a meta but like most prison decks this is really meta dependant.

Maveric78f

10-30-2008, 11:07 AM

jericohs@cottage

10-30-2008, 11:59 AM

A bad tendrils or brain freeze MU. But a good EtW MU. The fact is that EtW is not played anymore. Now that I play trinisphere MD and chalice + meddling mage in SB, I don't consider the combo MU as bad anymore. The deck can adapt and evolve to have answers to combo.

Magus effects are clearly a problem. But in France it is not played anymore. DS can have problems to deal with stax too, and MD rushing river can help to get rid of the moon effects (with mox diamond, so it's quite situationnal, I acknowledge). Post SB, grips and flame jab provide better answers. Actually, the best is probably the stax route. In a such diversified metagame, every deck has its predator. I advise you not to make your opinion on a single MU.

@ Maveric78f Thanks Maveric, I agree. I will not make my opinion on a single MU. But i'd like to mention that MD Rushing Rivers or Flame Jabs isn't the greateast method to combat 8 diff TURN 1 moon effects under Dragon Stompy. Point taken though. I think this is the roughest MU imagineable.

@ Peter Rotten What is the problem with that post? It was a very good comment that is very revelant. I even tested this match-up a few times.

Maveric78f

10-31-2008, 03:45 AM

Rushing rivers are not here for this purpose... It's a combo with smokestacks and it gives the tempo the deck needs in order to find time to set up. It's probably the slot the most discussable, but you are also very happy post SB, to have MD hate management. Flame Jab, as well is not here to beat Magus's ass, but rather to deal with gobs, elves and confidant.

Pulp_Fiction

12-04-2008, 03:47 PM

I took this deck to my local tournament last night and made it to a top 4 split out of 25ish people. The list:

4x Burning Wish
4x Mox Diamond
3x Life From the Loam
4x Exploration
3x Crop Rotation
4x Crucible of Worlds
2x Gamble
1x Intuition
2x Engineered Explosives

1x Academy Ruins
1x Tropical Island
1x Forest
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Tabernacle
3x Maze of Ith
3x Treetop Village
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory
1x Ghost Quarter
3x Taiga
3x Wooded Foothills
1x Riftstone Portal
1x Horizon Canopy
3x Tranquil Thicket
1x Barbarian Ring
1x Mountain

Sideboard

1x Worm Harvest
1x Recollect
1x Shattering Spree
1x Life From the Loam
1x Flame Jab
1x Devastating Dreams
1x Reverent Silence
1x Gamble
3x Krosan Grip
4x Chalice of the Void

A few comments on the deck, blue is a LOT better than white in Eternal Garden. I did miss Nomad Stadium when I played against burn, but aside from that it was good. Intuition is just disgusting but I don't like it in multiples and still feel Gamble is the superior card due to its casting cost. Playing around Daze without Exploration when you have Intuition in hand is awesome. As far as Manabond goes, didn't miss it at all. Crucible is really all the deck needs. And the fact that i can dredge into Crucible and recur it with Academy Ruins is just nasty; then again, recurring EE is not so bad either! Although Engineered Explossives was lackluster most of the night, I was still glad it was there to remove Crypt, Relic, Goyf etc. Its very nice to have.

A quick tournament report:

Round 1 - R/G/W Zoo (Loxodon Baileyarch)
game 1: I destroy every land he has with Ghost Quarter and Crop Rotate into Tabernacle.
game 2: Exact same as game 1 except this time I lock him out on turn 4.

Round 2 - Burn (unreg)
Even though he does not run price of progress this is still a hideous matchup, but since Burn isn't like a real deck anyway, I have no problems losing to this pile of garbage.
game 1: No Chalice, I die on turn 7. My goal was to Burning Wish in to Devastating Dreams which I did and cast it on turn 2 for 2 trying to disrupt his mana. But to no avail, 2 lands off the top and some Flame Rifts later thats it. Very stupid.
Game 2: I drop turn 1 Chalice @ 1 and he stalls on 1 mana! I almost pulled this out but I had 7 dead draws IN A ROW that allowed him to win. All I had to draw was another Chalice, Burning Wish, Loam, Intiution ... but I couldn't. I couldn't even draw cycle lands. Here is what I drew in succession: Taiga, Wooded Foothills, Wooded Foothills, Academy Ruins, Taiga, Treetop Village, and Mountain. It was sick, but hey, what can I do? he hits land # 2 and 3 and I die shortly after, to keldon Marauders of all things, I couldn't even draw manlands OR Maze!!!

Round 3: Mono-Black Resource Denial (unreg)
game 1: He has no grave hate and his deck is all about killing lands .... He dies to 18 Worm Harvest tokens in very short order.
game 2: I was forced to mull to 5 because I couldn't get anything I needed for this matchup (answers to Planar Void) and lose after he plays him own Crucible and start Wastelanding my lands and I can't keep pace. I drew like garbage this game as well.
game 3: Now THIS was a good game. I start of with Exploration into turn 2 Crucible then Intuition for Loam, Factory, Village. He dies to the aggro very fast. The deck curved out perfectly.

Round 4: R/W Goblins (Thor)
game 1: He drops turn 1 Lackey which leads into Siege Gang commander on turn 2. I Crop Rotate into Tabernacle and then drop a Mishra's factory and its on to game 2.
game 2: He keeps a no-land hand (hes already in the top 8 because hes 3-0 at this point) with double Relic of Progenitus. Turn 1 he looks at me and says "go". It was awesome, next turn he draw a Mountain off the top and drops Relic. The game goes downhill for him from there. I mulled down to 6 and kept a sub-par hand but I had the cards I needed against Goblins (Crop Rotation). I eventually draw into Burning Wish for the Relic only to see another one come into play. He makes a small effort to kill me with Lackey being Vialed in to start some craziness but Tabernacle just owns that deck. I Gamble for EE and drop it at 1 taking out Vial AND Relic and that ends the game.

Top 8
Round 5 - Team America (kabal)
game 1: I keep a 5 land + Exploration and Gamble hand and both Exploration and Gamble get Forced. His deck played out perfectly for him, this was one of those 1/50 kind of draws, where he just had the perfect cards at the right time. I don't draw any other action spells, I can't draw, Loam, Crucible, Burning Wish, another Gamble, Intuition, Crop Rotation, or Maze of Ith to handle the Tombstalker he had. I dropped EE at 2 for Goyf but ... didn't matter.
game 2: This was sick. I got Exploration, Crucible, Ghost Quarter going and he lost very quickly. However, he did play 1 basic land and he also had the Tombstalker but it didn't matter. I Crop Rotated into Maze of Ith just before I killed off the rest of his lands and he is unable to do anything.
game 3: I mull to 6 and keep a very sub-par hand. This game is really close. He tries to Sinkhole and Wasteland me for tempo ... doesn't have any kind of effect. I start killing his non-basics and he gets an early Tombstalker. I have drawn garbage this whole time but after being beaten by Tombstalker once I drew into Burning Wish and was able to Wish for Gamble, Gamble for Maze of Ith with 4 cards in hand, and play Maze of Ith. We play draw go for a little and I am just drawing like shit. Eventually I hit an Exploration and things got even better. I starting removing the rest of his lands but he had enough to mount a final effort when Goyf join his team. I end up taking 2 more swings from a Tombstalker after a suprise Wasteland and a Sinkhole on my Maze of Ith. I end up being at 1 life and I manage to lock him out with Glacial Chasm recursion. I have Crucible (recurred with Academy Ruins FTW), Exploration, and lots of lands in the yard. Wasteland finishes off his remaining lands and Crop Rotate into Tabernacle seals the deal.

In the top 4 we decide to split and everyone walks away with 30$ store credit! Top 4 was Goblins (Thor), R/G/W Zoo (Loxodon Baileyarch), Eternal Garden (me), and Terrageddon (unreg).

I am very satisfied with this build, the deck is SO solid. But one thing that really bothers me is that it seems like the deck is usually operating below what it can. When I am in topdeck mode (which is not often) it seems like the deck should be doing ... something I realize it plays 33 lands but still. I always seem to draw just the wrong cards at the wrong time, but because the Loam and Crucible engines are so strong is doesn't matter. Frequently the deck just seems like its operating on only a fraction of a level of its real capabilities but it still manages to win, especially when being Loam screwed or dredging into garbage. Has anyone ever thought this? Its weird and hard to explain, it just feels like the deck is operating on 2 cylinders a lot of the time out of a potential 8 cylinders but still manages to beat deck with great draws while operating on a sub-par level.

Waikiki

12-04-2008, 03:55 PM

@Maverick. Is the list you play still the list in the link? cause it seems a bit outdated to me. Im getting really interested in the deck after we played online. And I was wondering in what meta it would really shine.

Maveric78f

12-07-2008, 09:45 AM

My version. I'm still not fully satisfied with it for consistency issues.

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
4 [DK] Maze of Ith
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [B] Tropical Island
1 [R] Savannah
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 [OD] Nomad Stadium
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [RAV] Forest (4)
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [U] Taiga
1 [OD] Barbarian Ring
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm

// Spells
4 [TE] Intuition
4 [US] Exploration
4 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [US] Smokestack
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [PS] Rushing River
3 [DS] Trinisphere

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [P2] Armageddon
SB: 2 [P3] Ravages of War
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [EVE] Flame Jab
SB: 4 [JGC] Meddling Mage

Waikiki

12-07-2008, 11:28 AM

thnx, I will test the deck out!

TheLion

12-07-2008, 01:52 PM

hm. no Crop Rotation?

Btw. Has anyone ever tested Azusa, Lost but Seeking?
2 Explorations in 1 card is amazing.

Maveric78f

12-07-2008, 02:17 PM

3 crop rotations. Check it out.

morgan_coke

12-08-2008, 02:42 AM

Why'd you cut the constant mists? Have you been missing them or are they just bad now that CB is in thresh and goblins isn't omnipresent anymore?

I also say Ethersworn Canonist > Meddling Mage for anti-combo. Plus canonist can get recurred with Ruins. And it's easier to cast.

Laurent Fleury

12-14-2008, 07:14 PM

Hello everyone,

I'm glad to see this topic is not completely dead as the deck is a really strong contender in the metagame and a fun deck to play.

We have a monthly Legacy tournament here in Nagoya called the CBL (Closet Belief Legacy). We have around 20 regulars who are "fully powered" and about ~6 less experienced players every month. Yesterday was CBL 21 and we had a 24 player crowd, which meant 4 or 5 rounds (four rounds if we have a winner after four rounds, five otherwise), no single elimination.

Here is the deck I played

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
3 [DK] Maze of Ith
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [R] Tropical Island
2 [EX] City of Traitors
1 [R] Savannah
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [DIS] Ghost Quarter
1 [OD] Barbarian Ring
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 [OD] Nomad Stadium
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [R] Bayou
1 [R] Plateau
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Forest
1 [10E] Treetop Village
1 [JU] Riftstone Portal

// Creatures
1 [FD] Eternal Witness

// Spells
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [US] Exploration
4 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
4 [TE] Intuition
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [5E] Armageddon
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [US] Smokestack
1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [CHK] Boseiju, Who Shelters All
SB: 1 [IA] Zuran Orb
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle

Round I, against Eva Green
First turn Tabernacle basicly won me game 1 and turn 1 Mox Diamond Exploration double Maze of Ith the second one.

Round II, against RGw Zoo
More challenging but the deck can't really lose against aggro.

Round III, against BGw Doran
Turn 1 Thoughtseize on my lone spell Life from the Loam won me the game fairly easily and a few timely Krosan Grip won me game 2.

Round IV, against Rbw Goblins
I won first game quickly and then the second game he brought me down to four life before I can stabilize but he has Wort in play and a couple of Mogg Fanatics doing their things, I think about conceding but a Zuran Orb keeps me alive and with 10 minutes left on the clock I think my best shot at winning is to stabilize for another few turns. He kills me on turn 3 of the extra turns and it's a draw.

I finish 3-0-1 2nd on tiebreakers; winning a judge promo Vindicate and 6 Alara packs.

About the deck:

I mostly copied the deck from the French versions of the deck adding the Eternal Witness - Volrath's Tomb engine in the deck. I think if I had to replay the deck I would change one Chalice of the Void in the SB for a Shriekmaw (CotV is obviously very strong against two of our worst matchups Combo and Burn but as we play a lot of 1cc spells ourselves it is tough to side out for it. Shriekmaw is good with Volrath's Tomb in the deck. Riftstone Portal could be an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth) but overall the deck was really strong and I would recommend anyone who can build the deck to give it a try. Combo is a difficult matchup but it is not unwinnable. I would like to fit in a third City of Traitors in the deck but the only thin I could going out is one Wasteland (but I'm not sure I want to do that) or the Main Deck Tormod's Crypt but then it would have to go in the SB where space is already a concern.

By the way, I don't see how Burning Wish should be in the deck? Reverent Silence doesn't solve Blood Moon most of the time and we need a real Sideboard against Combo and Burn!

Thoughts?

Pulp_Fiction

12-14-2008, 08:47 PM

You don't see why Burning Wish is necessary? Have you ever played against Leyline of the Void? Tormod's Crypt? Extirpate? How about consistency? Copies 4,5,6,7 of Loam or Gamble 4,5,6,7? A kill source? Burning Wish answers anything you can possibly think of if your wishboard is properly set up (including the random Tombstalker). Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon, Leyline, etc. The only thing this deck can't handle is combo. The only out is hoping they have Empty the Warrens and are able to Crop Rotate into Glacial Chasm/Tabernacle to shut them out. Against proper storm combo (basically anything not Belcher) this deck has no chance. Same with Burn. Goyf Sligh is a race that you can occassionally win thanks to Ghost Quarter and Glacial Chasm but against Mono-Red Burn this deck almost can't win. SB Chalice of the Void helps, as well as Burning Wish for Devastating Dreams to keep them off lands and out of Fireblast range! You could even run a single Zuran Orb but that places a heavy emphasis Loam/Exploration, so if the burn player is running Tormod's Crypt you are in bad shape.

Circle of Protection: Red is not a bad SB option but still sucks. I personally hate the idea of playing SB cards that only apply to maybe 2 matchups that aren't good and makes them semi-not good. They would be replacing Chalice of the Void which is sided in quite often and helps against both burn and combo. Although I do dislike Chalice in the SB because of the anti-synergy between it and Exploration/Crop Rotation/Gamble, I guess the question is which matchup do you see more of, burn or combo? Gear your SB towards beating whichever one is more common and/or is more greatly improved by the cards.

TheLion

12-15-2008, 04:30 AM

I'm still working occassionally, too.

Yes, Leyline and Crypt are a huge problems, but I'm not sure, if you really need the wish, if you just pack your 4 Krosan Grips in the SB.
Extirpate isn't a real problem, since all your lands are 1-offs and Extirpate on Crucible or Exploration is nearly gg anyway (and Wish does nothing then, too).
Devastating Dreams is so good, I'd play 2 MD.
Tombstalker as Burning Wish target?

Could Pyrostatic Pillar be somewhat good against Storm, too, though it hits ourselves?

And isn't Chasm sufficient against Burn? (never tested this matchup) Are they too fast? I'd rather play Chill instead of Cop:Red. But in the end I'd play none of them.

But doesn't Trinisphere do its job good enough against both?

I also tested the "french" versions with 3 Geddons, 4 Wastelands, 4 Maze, 4 Mishra's Factory, but came to the conclusions, that it is too much colorless mana. Earlier in this thread, people found, that 1-2 of each are enough, since all are tutorable and I think this way is the right way. Wasteland is too often dead, and I'd rather build up a good position, rather than attack with factories. And I don't believe that Riftstone Portal really fixes that problem.
How has this been working out?

EDIT: What about Mana Maze as solution for the Burn and Storm Combo decks? Burn can only play 1 spell each turn, and most storm combo decks are only UB, so they will never get enough storm. At least this is better than Ethersworn Canonist... and it makes your keyspells uncounterable, since Mana Maze is blue, they can't play a blue spell anymore.

Pulp_Fiction

12-15-2008, 06:11 PM

Sorry, should have made it clear about Tombstalker. Ever since I played Aggro Loam with Wish I ran a Wing Snare in the SB to take care of the random creatures I seemed to not be able to handle. It really works, the only creature that gives this deck problems is like a turn 4 Tombstalker. Can be annoying since usually decks running Tombstalker just Wasteland or Sinkhold your Maze of ith.

Trinisphere is pretty good, I guess turn 2 against burn it would make a big difference. Chill would be worse than this since Trinisphere is good VS combo as well where as Chill is only good in the burn/Goyf Sligh matchup.

Glacial Chasm doesn't do shit against burn. Price of Progress is an instant, and so are most other relevant burn spells. When you don't pay Glacial Chasm's upkeep effect and recur it with Loam/Crucible + Exploration (which is how the lock works) they just burn you when it isn't in play. The only thing you can do against Price of Progress is save a Crop Rotation and Crop Rotate into Glacial Chasm with Price on the stack.

Laurent Fleury

12-15-2008, 09:01 PM

Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere is usually enough against burn but it has to come out fast so your Chasm is relevant (as Pulp Fiction pointed out it is not a "lock" per se). And this is why I think you need at least 7 of them in the SB. I understand why Burning Wish is good but what I say is that it is not better than a real SB (4 Krosan Grip 4 Trinisphere 3~4 Chalice of the Void) probably.

I don't understand how Wasteland is too much? Is it ever dead in your metagames!? Not in mine. Extirpate is a problem but not unsolvable as most of your lands are 1-of and nothing 100% necessary (this is why I play Factories and 1 Treetop Village and 1 Barbarian Ring), same goes for Crucible or Life from the Loam, as we still have the other one.

For the colorless mana, I never found myself color-screwed... And yes Riftstone Portal helps that. Speaking of which, Wastelanding your own Riftstone Portal is a play I made a few times with no regrets.

As for Tombstalker, it's true Eva Green-like decks will wasteland/sinkhole your land but hopefully you can bring it back or have two in play, hence the need to play at least 3 Maze of Iths (making Rifstone Portal even better...). I'd fear Jötun Grunt much more... And this is where the Armageddon kicks in; it's our Wrath of God.

I feel like Burning Wish takes a lot of space in a color that otherwise doesn't need to be more than tertiary. Mana Maze would be good against Storm but probably not better than Sphere of Resistance or Trinisphere but I feel it would be pretty pointless against burn. They shouldn't be able to play more than a spell or two in a turn anyway... Burn usually kills you out of a topdeck. And they can even play Red Elemental Blast on it.

Finally, I don't like to rely on Gamble (because it's red first and has a casting cost of one) to get Life from the Loam. 3 mana is so easy to get Intuition is just so much better and harder to counter with Counterbalance.

Devastating Dreams is definitely a strong card but tough to cast in my deck and I don't like how the discard is a part of the cost...

Thank you for the thoughts, I will try to test everything. I will definitely play the deck again next month.

TheLion

12-16-2008, 05:18 AM

Yes, right, Mana Maze is not good against Burn... Chalice and Trinisphere still are the best cards for troublesome matchups.
I am currently trying to fit both into the Maindeck, just because they are not only good against Storm and Burn but also against many other decks.
I realized that we only run a single cc2 spell (Life from the Loam) and ~7 cc1 spells (Crop Rotation and Exploration).
So I replaced Crop Rotation with Scapeshift and Exploration with Azusa, Lost but Seeking and Rites of Flourishing, in order to fit in Chalice and Trinisphere.
Azusa is very fragile but on the other hand she equals 2 Exploration and can be recurred with Stronghold.
It makes the deck a little slower (no more instant speed Chasm or Maze), but maybe it's worth it.
Gifts Ungiven might be better though than Scapeshift.

4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1 Rites of Flourishing
4 Intuition
2 Scapeshift
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Armageddon
1 Zuran Orb
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Life from the Loam
1 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond
+ 29 lands

Has anyone given this a try?

I also like the red splash in this deck. It opens up to Devastating Dream, Burning Wish, Wildfire, Seismic Assault, better Barbarian Ring support, or even Thoughts of Ruin (which sometimes is better than Geddon, sometimes worse),
while the W splash only gives Armageddon and maybe Humility or StP.
Though if you play Chalice and Sphere, there just aren't any slots to play things like this...

Btw: The thing about Wasteland is, that 1-2 are usually enough, since u can tutor it up, when u need it.

DireLemming

12-16-2008, 05:46 AM

EDIT: What about Mana Maze as solution for the Burn and Storm Combo decks? Burn can only play 1 spell each turn, and most storm combo decks are only UB, so they will never get enough storm. At least this is better than Ethersworn Canonist... and it makes your keyspells uncounterable, since Mana Maze is blue, they can't play a blue spell anymore.
Actually most storm decks can play around MM. Besides alternating U and B spells they also have artifacts they can drop to break up the colour streaks.

As for making your spells uncountrable, it (at best) applies to four off your spells (Intuitions) while at the same time locking you somewhat (e.g. a main-phase Ponder means no Intuition EOT etc.).

Pulp_Fiction

12-19-2008, 02:04 PM

I would not play the deck without Burning Wish. It adds WAY to much consistency, especially when you have to mull to 5 or lower to get the cards you need against a specific deck.

First thing, I took my build to my local tournament last wednesday and got REALLY bad matchups and had serious bad luck. I swear, everytime I bring the deck up there, out of 25ish people there are maybe 4 playing mono-colored decks and I get to play against 2-3 everytime, not Dreadstill, not Landstill, basically nothing blue with non-basics. I play against fucking Death and Taxes with 3 or 4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain in the MAIN and Suicide Black with Extirpates in the main! Oh well, here is how the tournament went:

Round 1: Death and Taxes (unreg)
g1: Turn 2 Samurai followed by Stone Cloaker saving his threats ...
g2: Devastating Deams on turn ..... 18 seals it.
g3: We go to time, I would have won had he not had 3 consecutive StP on Factory, Treetop, Factory. I get him down to 2 life and have him stalled on 1 land in turns (Ghost Quarter). Given 1 more fucking turn I would have won this hideous matchup.

Round 2: Belcher (unreg)
Another hideous matchup, I manage to WIN!!!!
g1: I mull to 6 trying to find Crop Rotation and hope he goes for the Empty the Warrens kill. He does and I Crop Rotate into Tabernacle and win shortly after.
g2: I keep a hand based on the idea that he is going to mull into the Belcher kill because Empty sucks ... he doesn't and Empties for 12 on turn 1. I am forced to Burning Wish for Gamble, then Gamble for Tabernacle and with 6 cards in hand he picks the fucking Tabernacle .. next game.
g3: For fifth game in a row I get to mulligan, WOOT! I get turn 1 Exploration with Crop Rotation in hand (ready for Belcher), drop another land and get ready. He drops Belcher but isn't able to activate it. On his next turn he can't activate it either and I Burning Wish into Shattering Spree and destroy Belcher. Then the beatdown starts. He draws into enough acceleration and kill sources and while at 2 life he is able to double Seething Song into Belcher but I just put the activation on the stack and Crop Rotate into Glacial Chasm. When the deck is good .... its really good!

Round 3: Suicide Black (mono) with Extirpate in the main (braves)
g1: Within the first 5 turns Exploration and Loam are Extirpated. I end up winning with EE recursion, Maze of Ith on Tombstalker, and random Glacial Chasm stalls.
g2: Mull to 5 trying to find a hand that is not all lands. Keep a hideous hand and lose to Leyline.
g3: Goes something like this: mull to 5 trying to find spells, keep an awful hand of something like Mox Diamond, Burning Wish, EE, land, land and see turn 1 double Dark Ritual into Hippie and Dark Confidant which is followed up by another Confidant after I kill the first. Yep I lose quickly.

Round 4: Goyf Sligh (unreg)
This is fucking ridiculous, I am not sure if I could have gotten worse pairings but whatever.
g1: I lose to burn spells ...
g2: I side in my secret tech of Circle of Protection: Red and WIN WIN WIN!!!!!
g3: I make a SAVAGE misplay and most likely lose because of it. I mull to 6 trying to find COP Red and keep the hand. Around turn 9 or so he plays a Magus of the Moon, which is fine I don't really care as the deck is just laughing at me (as it has been the whole tournament) and I can't draw relevant cards anyway. I am at 10 and he has a Seal of Fire on the board, all his lands are tapped but he does have 2 Mountains when he plays Quirion Dryad and then Chain Lightnings me. I immediately look to see how much damage he can deal to me and it is 6 if I decide to take Chain Lighting (so I can Chain it back since I have mountains) assuming he has Fireblast in hand and Seals me putting me to 1 life. So I take the Chain Lightning and with my 2 open mountains I Chain it back into the Dryad!! I had a Maze of Ith in play but I was over-analyzing the situation because I was at such low life I was thinking about the Dryad being green and how I would not be able to prevent the damage, especially if Goyf joined the fight so I kill the green creature. I should have killed the Magus but ..... oh well. I will chalk that one up to immense frustration. I ended up 1-2-1 but assuming I would the last round I could have been 2-1-1 and I don't think that owuld have been good enough for top 8. Bad times.

Anyway, this whole mishap got me thinking, this deck has horrid Burn and Suicide Black matchups so I tried to think what the best answer to this was. COP Red is SPECTACULAR, OMG, I was SOOO wrong about it being effective, it just shuts them down. Highly recommended! So then I started thinking about COP Black against Suicide variants but the problem is that the SB can't be occupied by 6x COPs. But it could be occupied by 2 of each with a single Enlightened Tutor in the main, so its like playing 3! On its own Enlightened fetches Exploration, Crucible, EE, and Mox Diamond if needed so it is pretty good anyway! Here is my new list and SB:

3x Life From the Loam
4x Burning Wish
4x Mox Diamond
4x Crucible of Worlds
2x Gamble
3x Crop Rotation
4x Exploration
1x Intuition
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Barbarian Ring
3x Taiga
3x Wasteland (I'm trying 3 for now but I still think 4 is the right number)
4x Mishra's Factory
3 Maze of Ith
3x Wooded Foothills
2x Treetop Village
1x Tabernacle
3x Tranquil Thicket
1x Academy Ruins
1x Tropical Island
1x Riftstone Portal
1x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Savannah
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Ghost Quarter

SB
1x Loam
1x Flame Jab
1x Devastating Dreams
1x Worm Harvest
1x Gamble
1x Regrowth
1x Reverent Silence
1x Shattering Spree
2x Circle of Protection: Red
2x Circle of Protection: Black
3x Krosan Grip

I don't think the combo hate is really necessary. This deck has no clock at all so while they find a quick answer to Trinisphere you can't put enough pressure on them for it to really matter. But, either way, when I build a SB I like to make semi-bad to decent matchups even better, and unless there is one card that will just totally own a certain matchup I will never dedicate more than 4x slots towards a matchup that, even after SB, is still hideous at best.

Laurent Fleury

12-25-2008, 10:55 PM

I'm now playing with this deck after a few modifications...

// Lands
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [DK] Maze of Ith
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [R] Tropical Island
2 [EX] City of Traitors
1 [R] Savannah
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [DIS] Ghost Quarter
1 [OD] Barbarian Ring
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 [OD] Nomad Stadium
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [R] Bayou
1 [R] Plateau
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Forest
1 [10E] Treetop Village
1 [JU] Riftstone Portal
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

// Creatures
1 [FD] Eternal Witness

// Spells
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [US] Exploration
4 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
4 [TE] Intuition
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
2 [5E] Armageddon
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [US] Smokestack
1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
1 [DIS] Research/Development

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 1 [CHK] Boseiju, Who Shelters All
SB: 1 [SOK] Kagemaro, First to Suffer
SB: 1 [PY] Spore Frog
SB: 1 [IA] Zuran Orb
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist

I still don't think Burning Wish is necessary, Research/Development can do half the job Burning Wish was supposed to do (and a lot less but also a lot more with the Development side not being totally dead as well as tutoring for cards Burning Wish can't and then tutor them up with Intuition or Crop Rotation or just draw them with Horizon Canopy)

Glacial Chasm: After our discussion I realized Glacial Chasm was actually quite a bad card, never doing what we really wanted it to do. I swaped it for the last Maze of Ith, a card that definitely does what it's meant for!

Urborg: I wanted to compensate the number of non-mana land we play and with Volrath Main Deck and Kagemaro in the SB another black source of mana was welcome too.

Wasteland: I agreee that I'd like to play 4 as well, but if I have to cut one land it's Wasteland... I'd like to compensate with the 4th Crop Rotation but the only card I could see going is one Armageddon or the Smokestack and in the end I think they're stronger than Crop Rotation in their own right (it's important to be able to Intuition for Witness and 2 'Geddon when needed)

Intuition: This deck definitely needs 4 Intuition! Or at least Gifts Ungiven or even Gamble but it's crazy not to use more tutor in this deck... And I don't think Burning Wish replaces Intuition. (Speaking of which, I also think it's crazyness not to play 4 Krosan Grip in the board)

Research/Development: A weird choice but it is very good against graveyard-hate in a deck full of tutor... Earwig Squad, Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus, Extirpate and Leyline of the Void are all cards widely played sometimes even MD and I feel like having a way to put these card back in the deck is often enough if we can slow down the game to the point we can tutor them back when needed. It is also good to throw 4 Krosan Grip in your deck Game 1 against many decks (or other SB cards). The development side of the card is very rarely played but it's nice way to make the card never dead.

(SB) Chalice of the Void: I didn't like Chalice of the Void in the Sideboard because even if we can tiem it the way we want a CotV set at 1 will slow us down a lot, usually as much as the opponent.

(SB) Trinisphere vs. Sphere of Resistance: I realized most combo decks in Legacy are stopped as much by Sphere as by 3sphere, if not more (Aluren, Belcher)... And having 3 mana on the first turn is very difficult whereas 2 is quite common. As we're most often going to have to win a game on the draw against combo if we want to win (lose the first one, win the second one, third game on the draw) it's more realistic to play Sphere of Resistance over Trinisphere.

(SB) Ethersworn Canonist: Dropping the number of Trinisphere I wanted another good 2-drop against combo. I hesitated between Thorn of Amethyst, Pyrostatic Pillar and Ethersworn Canonist but in the end opted for the Alara Rare... We have two ways to recur it and it's good to have a clock against combo as it is difficult to really hardlock them out of the game and if we have to win game 3 we might have some time issues as well! I even think about having 3 Ethersworn Canonist and no Trinisphere in the board... This is also why I play Plateau over Taiga.

(SB) Spore Frog: This is a try at countering one of our worst matchup: Aggro-Loam... Recurring Volrath's Stronghold and then Spore Frog can be a way to stop them, mostly post-SB as most build wouldn't run much creature hate post-SB against us... I would like to play Pithing Needle set on Wasteland together with the Fog Frog against Aggro-Loam but SB space is lacking... Spore Frog recursion is also randomly good against most aggro-deck even if almost all of them play Wasteland in Legacy.

(SB) Kagemaro, First to Suffer: He is very very strong against most aggro deck in Legacy. He can kill most creatures short of some Goyfs', Terravore, Countryside Crusher and Phyrexian Dreadnought. It is easy to have a full grip with the deck using Life from the Loam or recuring Horizon Canopy. Of course he is recuring himself as well thanks to Volrath's Stronghold and in a pinch he can be an alternate win condition. So far he has been very good.

(SB) Zuran Orb: Against Burn I'd definitely rather have CoP: Red but Zorb is easier to tutor for and can be randomly good against decks where CoP: Red is dead... I still don't like the card and I could swap it for Pithing Needle depending on the metagame...

My next tournament is on January 11th, I'll tell you how I did.
I hope I won't have to face Aggro-Loam or Solidarity/Belcher/ANT, they are the decks I fear the most and actually the only deck I fear!...

Roman Candle

12-26-2008, 12:10 AM

He can kill most creatures short of some Goyfs', Terravore, Countryside Crusher and Phyrexian Dreadnought.

Are there really any other creatures that you want to kill? I don't know if Kagemaro is worth the card slot... it just seems like something like Damnation would be better, since even though it can't be recurred with Stronghold, it can be recurred with Eternal Witness, which can be recurred with Stronghold. Hell, I think I would even rather play Reiver Demon in that slot, since the only widely played creatures that it doesn't kill are Dreadnought and Confidant... and it doesn't need a full mitt of cards to do it.

It pains me to say it, because I love Kagemaro... but I don't think there is a place for him in Legacy.

Media314r8

12-26-2008, 03:40 AM

(SB) Spore Frog: This is a try at countering one of our worst matchup: Aggro-Loam... Recurring Volrath's Stronghold and then Spore Frog can be a way to stop them, mostly post-SB as most build wouldn't run much creature hate post-SB against us... I would like to play Pithing Needle set on Wasteland together with the Fog Frog against Aggro-Loam but SB space is lacking... Spore Frog recursion is also randomly good against most aggro-deck even if almost all of them play Wasteland in Legacy.

(SB) Zuran Orb: Against Burn I'd definitely rather have CoP: Red but Zorb is easier to tutor for and can be randomly good against decks where CoP: Red is dead... I still don't like the card and I could swap it for Pithing Needle depending on the metagame...

Both of these cards are also relevant against the ichorid MU, as Z Orb can eat activated factories and vills to RFG bridges and spore frog stops a wave of ichorids as well as RFGing the bridges. OBV better cards just for ichorid, but I suppose you have some game vs ichorid G2 and G3 since you dropped chasm.

Laurent Fleury

12-26-2008, 09:18 AM

Are there really any other creatures that you want to kill? I don't know if Kagemaro is worth the card slot... it just seems like something like Damnation would be better, since even though it can't be recurred with Stronghold, it can be recurred with Eternal Witness, which can be recurred with Stronghold. Hell, I think I would even rather play Reiver Demon in that slot, since the only widely played creatures that it doesn't kill are Dreadnought and Confidant... and it doesn't need a full mitt of cards to do it.

It pains me to say it, because I love Kagemaro... but I don't think there is a place for him in Legacy.

Well of course! It kills Dark Confidant, Kird Ape, all Goblins, all Elves, all Faeries, Meddling Mage, Serendib Efreet, Trinket Mage, Nimble Mongoose, Hypnotic Specter, Tombstalker, Birds of Paradise and so many other widely played creature.

On defense he can also easily kill Tarmogoyf or Phyrexian Dreadnought.

And 3BB is still more realistic than 4BBBB... And I feel the advantage of being a creature (aka alternate win condition and easy to recur with Stronghold) makes it better than Damnation as well...

As for the Dredge matchup, it sounds a little bit too optimistic to me to think one spore frog can make the difference but that's a nice plus... To be honest, we don't have any good regular Dredge player in Nagoya so I didn't put too much thougtht in the matchup... It mustn't be great even if I can see many ways for Eternal Garden to win (Maze of Ith, Tabernacle, Manlands, Crypt, Engineered Explosives, ...)

Roman Candle

12-26-2008, 10:24 AM

Well of course! It kills Dark Confidant, Kird Ape, all Goblins, all Elves, all Faeries, Meddling Mage, Serendib Efreet, Trinket Mage, Nimble Mongoose, Hypnotic Specter, Tombstalker, Birds of Paradise and so many other widely played creature.

But Damnation hits all of them, and doesn't need a full mitt of cards to do it. Damnation is pretty easy to recur with Stronghold, too, if you have Witness. It also costs one less, and can't be Stifled.

And I have a hard time believing that Kagemaro has won you a relevant amount of games in the red zone.

I think Kagemaro falls under Danger of Cool Things.

Pulp_Fiction

12-26-2008, 02:19 PM

If it works, play it. Kagemaro seems inferior to Devastating Dreams, or just simply Burning Wish targets in general. But if it works in your meta, run it.

As long as you know how to play against Dredge the matchup is easy as hell. They have no answers at all for Tabernacle or Glacial Chasm. THe land destruction in particular hurts them. Just mulligan into a hand with Crop Rotation and/or EE in it and you will have no problems with the matchup. Especially a turn 1 Tabernacle, it is devastating since thye can't keep their zombies EVER. But, the key to the matchup, kill their lands ASAP and save Crop Rotation until things start looking bad. The whole time you are just setting up for a Chasm lock, and once you have it just tell them and they will most likely quit and go to the next game since they have no answers for this (even after SB since no one plays Leyline anymore). But the matchup is nearly unwinnable for Dredge, expect to win around 85-95% of the time, it is that bad for them.

Maveric78f

12-26-2008, 03:08 PM

But the matchup is nearly unwinnable for Dredge, expect to win around 85-95% of the time, it is that bad for them.
Do you playtest against your little sister or what?

Pulp_Fiction

12-26-2008, 03:34 PM

Do you? Does your build run Crop Rotation? Tabernacle? Wasteland? EE? Chasm?

I have played against Dredge no fewer than 4 times in a tournament setting and never lost a game with Eternal Garden. In playtesting I have rarely ever lost a match to Dredge. The only way they have a chance is you mulligan into garbage or decide to keep a hand reliant on Gamble and they pick the card then go nuts the next turn. Instead of posting ignorant comments like this maybe it would be good to actually post a question that people want to answer or is actually phrased in a way as to provide information to people who read the thread.

Never played against Dredge/Ichorid in a tournament setting? OK, please comment when you have played against the deck, how the matches went, how you won/lost, what you could do differently. This is helpful, asking ignorant questions is not.

Guevera59

01-01-2009, 12:04 PM

Hey guys,

Well, I recently picked up a $50 Italian Tabernacle at my local card store so I now feel obligated to play any deck that runs one. :tongue: I already play and do fairly well with Mono W Stax and I feel that the next step is Eternal Garden as Stax and Garden share many of the same cards. Now I'm new to this deck and I have a few questions.

Whats the difference between this and 43land.dec?
Now, i believe that the difference is less reliance on LftL and more of a focus on CoW? Is this the case? I noticed that this deck is much more resilient than 43 land as it has a back plan if LftL gets Extirpated, Crypted, Relic'd, etc.

Upon little testing, I feel that burning wish is %100 must. I believe Research/Development is an inferior substitute. Just shuffling the cards that you need into your deck does not get the job done when there's a Chalice at one eating you alive. Wish is an excellent backup plan against GY hate and I think that it is a great game plan to have that kindof backup in a deck so susceptible to GY hate.

What man lands should I play?
I noticed that there are many possible man lands. Treetop Village, Mishra's Factory, Mutavault, Nantuko Monastery, etc. I noticed that in some lists, people tend to leave out Monastery. I feel as if this is a mistake as Monestery is a complete powerhouse. What are people's thoughts on Mutavault? Whats the best man lands configuration?

And finally, how the hell does this deck beat combo?
I tested this against Gobbos (which I destroyed), UWb Landstill (I won after I Wished for an Extirpated LftL) and ANT (destroyed). How do I beat ANT? Unless I'm missing something, I do believe that Chasm does not stop Tendrils. What's our game plan? Do we SB in 3spheres and CotV? Or do we know it's a loss cause and we don't even SB at all? Or am I just missing something and we actually destroy combo?

Thanks for the help guys,
G59

TheLion

01-01-2009, 01:05 PM

Whats the difference between this and 43land.dec?
Now, i believe that the difference is less reliance on LftL and more of a focus on CoW? Is this the case? I noticed that this deck is much more resilient than 43 land as it has a back plan if LftL gets Extirpated, Crypted, Relic'd, etc.

Correct. Most Eternal Garden lists play 4 CoW and 1 LftL. 43Lands is more focussed on dropping your hand with Manabond, drawing cards with Cycle Lands and Loam and attack with many manlands. (This is my understanding of 43lands, sorry, i never played it myself).
Eternal Garden is more a toolbox deck with Intuition and Crop Rotation, recurring Engineered Explosives, lockdown with Smokestack, recurring Barbarian Ring and so on.

Upon little testing, I feel that burning wish is %100 must. I believe Research/Development is an inferior substitute. Just shuffling the cards that you need into your deck does not get the job done when there's a Chalice at one eating you alive. Wish is an excellent backup plan against GY hate and I think that it is a great game plan to have that kindof backup in a deck so susceptible to GY hate.

People are still arguing about Burning Wish. If you have it, you have hardly no room for Trinisphere and Chalice anymore, which you need against fast combo. The question is, if 4 Krosan Grip against Leyline and Crypt aren't sufficient against GY hate.

What man lands should I play?
I noticed that there are many possible man lands. Treetop Village, Mishra's Factory, Mutavault, Nantuko Monastery, etc. I noticed that in some lists, people tend to leave out Monastery. I feel as if this is a mistake as Monestery is a complete powerhouse. What are people's thoughts on Mutavault? Whats the best man lands configuration?

Mishra's Factory are obviously better than Mutavault. The best configuration depends on how your game plan is and how your deck is built. If you must support many colors or plan to control the early game, rather than attack, I'd recommend to play 1 Treetop/1 Factory and 1 Monastery.
If you play with less colors, 4 Factory would be better.
In fact I think no one can really tell you, which and how many man lands you should play. It comes down to personal preference in the end I guess.

And finally, how the hell does this deck beat combo?
I tested this against Gobbos (which I destroyed), UWb Landstill (I won after I Wished for an Extirpated LftL) and ANT (destroyed). How do I beat ANT? Unless I'm missing something, I do believe that Chasm does not stop Tendrils. What's our game plan? Do we SB in 3spheres and CotV? Or do we know it's a loss cause and we don't even SB at all? Or am I just missing something and we actually destroy combo?

Yes, Chasm does not stop Tendrils. Trinisphere and Chalice should do their job quite well here.
But then again: If you have a Wishboard, there's not much room for 7-8 cards (chalice + 3sphere).

HAVE HEART

01-23-2009, 03:53 PM

I do not play this deck, but thought this could be useful:
Knight of the Reliquary 1GW
Creature - Human Knight
Knight of the Reliquary gets +1/+1 for each land card in your graveyard.
[TAP], Sacrifice a Forest or Plains: Search your library for a land card, put it into play, then shuffle your library.
2/2

Maveric78f

01-24-2009, 03:49 AM

Too slow and too much a creature.

Eatatjoes

01-24-2009, 11:41 AM

Too slow and too much a creature.

Haha. I thought that was funny, it's super true tho, this deck is powerful because it plays no creatures, it makes decks with alot of creature hate, have alot of dead cards.

morgan_coke

08-27-2009, 03:36 PM

With the spoiling of Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle, I immediately thought of this deck as a place where cards in that cycle could be profitably placed.

Given the number of lands this deck runs, and the numerous ways which it has to sacrifice and recur them, this land and the others presumably like it seem like natural fits. I'd be very interested to hear the thoughts of others on this, although meaningful discussion will likely have to wait until more of these types of cards are spoiled.

sco0ter

08-27-2009, 04:44 PM

The problem is, that you need 5 other Mountains (and likely 5 others of each basic land type for each land of the cycle, if any) and try to get 5 mountains with Eternal Garden...
Getting 5 Forests is most likely with this deck, but even that is hard considering the high amount of nondual-nonbasic lands like Maze.

It might be possible to make those lands work in that deck, but it would need another land base. (more basic land types) I don't think it is worth it. Barbarian Ring should be good enough if you have board control.

Maybe the black land (with Urborg, ToY) would work.

mercc

08-29-2009, 05:24 PM

So there was no love for this deck before the spoiling of the new land card?

A land.dec made top8 at gencon so it can do something! I searched up a thread for 43lands.dec aswell and that is completely dead. Too bad i say! It's a fun deck.

Pulp_Fiction

08-30-2009, 03:53 AM

It is fun, and VERY hard to play right which makes me like them even more. But the problem with the decks is there genuinely is no reason to play them over other decks. Unless you meta is 100% goblins and Dredge ... no reason to play the deck. With decks playing maindeck Relics and Leyline and Crypt all over the place, the deck really just isn't as good. All the Lands! decks are incredibly bad ass, but why play one when you could play Aggro Loam? They are fun ... HELL YEAH, but that is basically it.

mercc

08-30-2009, 11:10 AM

Argh, don't say that.
Maybe it's been reviewed before, but what are the pro's and con's between a land.dec and aggroloam?

I like playing a deck with no creatures for starters.

sdematt

08-30-2009, 04:09 PM

I've been playing a deck LIKE this, but it's more like Stax, 43 Land, and this formed into one, and I've been kicking ass and taking names. I'll post the list as it's own thing when I get the chance. Don't worry all, the land-deck is not dead.

mercc

08-31-2009, 06:59 AM

That makes one curious, we are waiting :)

Maveric78f

08-31-2009, 07:11 AM

Just FYI, last WE in Paris, this deck won a 23-people tournament:

Lands (33):
4 Wasteland
3 Cité des traîtres
4 Usine de Mishra
4 Maze of Ith
2 Contreforts boisés
2 Lande venteuse
2 Île tropicale
1 Savane
2 Taïga
1 Forêt
1 Canopée d'horizon
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Academy Ruins
1 The Tabernacle At Pendrell Vale
1 Précipice glaciaire
1 Nomad Stadium
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Mutavault

4 Intuition
4 Creuset des mondes
4 Exploration
4 Assolement
4 Mox de diamant
2 Armaguedon
1 Life from the Loam
1 Zuran Orb
1 Explosifs artificiels
2 Toupie de divination du sensei

SB :
4 Trinisphère
4 Calice du vide
4 Poigne krosiane
1 Vie du terreau
1 Urtication de flammes
1 Tormod's Crypt

Sorry for the french names, I'm too lazy to translate. I hope you'll get it. If you can read french (or the google translations), you can read his report here:
http://www.legacy-france.com/index.php?showtopic=2922&hl=

Carabas

08-31-2009, 08:44 AM

4 Wasteland
3 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Maze of Ith
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Academy Ruins
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Nomad Stadium
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Mutavault

4 Intuition
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Exploration
4 Crop Rotation
4 Mox diamond
2 Armageddon
1 Life from the Loam
1 Zuran Orb
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Sensei's Diving Top

Sideboard:
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam
1 Flame Jab
1 Tormod's Crypt

For those people who can't translate french.

mercc

09-02-2009, 04:21 PM

i thought loam was the engine of the deck. but i guess crucible and exploration do the trick. allthough crucible is easier to counter than loam

mercc

09-04-2009, 03:50 PM

Why canopy?
It's like cycling a land only that canopy counts towards your landcount / turn where cycling just costs G. I don't get it.

DukeDemonKn1ght

09-11-2009, 07:20 PM

Why canopy?
It's like cycling a land only that canopy counts towards your landcount / turn where cycling just costs G. I don't get it.

Because Canopy is re-usable with Crucible, while cycling lands are re-usable with Loam. Do try to pay attention.

Meanwhile, my main reason for posting is to ask if anyone is excited about this card that has just been spoiled: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=183502

It seems like it would be way better than Vinelasher Kudzu in the sideboard, at the very least...

Also, as sort of a general question, why does it seem like no one is playing this deck anymore? If I had the money to build this deck, it's totally what I would play. I mean, it's just so cool.

flrn

09-11-2009, 07:55 PM

Also, as sort of a general question, why does it seem like no one is playing this deck anymore? If I had the money to build this deck, it's totally what I would play. I mean, it's just so cool.

Because lately, there is graveyard-hate in every sideboard and well the engine of the deck is based on using the graveyard, so its kinda bad if the opponent has leyline of the void in his starting hand or is using stuff like relic of progenitus.

DukeDemonKn1ght

09-12-2009, 04:24 AM

Because lately, there is graveyard-hate in every sideboard and well the engine of the deck is based on using the graveyard, so its kinda bad if the opponent has leyline of the void in his starting hand or is using stuff like relic of progenitus.

Well, I know it's a genuinely terrible card, but has anyone tried Ground Seal in the sideboard? I realize it's horribly reactive, as opposed to proactive, but hey... At least it cantrips.

Also, what about Scute Mob? That shit is dope: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=183502

sco0ter

09-12-2009, 05:04 AM

Ground Seal? It doesn't stop Leyline, Crypt or Relic. Only Extirpate.

Scute Mob? No. This deck is strong because it doesn't play creatures.

Pulp_Fiction

09-12-2009, 05:30 AM

Yes!!!!!!!!

mercc

09-12-2009, 04:42 PM

Because Canopy is re-usable with Crucible, while cycling lands are re-usable with Loam. Do try to pay attention.

But as i said. If you want to "cycle" with crucible+canopy you cannot play out more lands as you waste your 1-land-per-turn.

With loam+cycle you can play out lands that do stuff AND cycle to draw cards.

DireLemming

09-12-2009, 04:44 PM

But as i said. If you want to "cycle" with crucible+canopy you cannot play out more lands, maybe you want to play out a maze of ith AND draw a card.

With loam+cycle you can do just that.
Eternal Garden tends to play Exploration somewhat negating that downside.

mercc

09-12-2009, 05:03 PM

Eternal Garden tends to play Exploration somewhat negating that downside.

Exploration most definitely, absolutely doesn't at all "negate" that downside.

Because as i said. You PLAY a land to cycle it. I'd like to PLAY lands that do stuff, like maze/tabernacle/mishra/barbarian ring and spend "g" to cycle from hand instead. And with exploration out I can play 2 lands that do stuff, while you only can play 1 because you have to play out canopy, thus I win.

DireLemming

09-13-2009, 04:06 AM

Exploration most definitely, absolutely doesn't at all "negate" that downside.

Because as i said. You PLAY a land to cycle it. I'd like to PLAY lands that do stuff, like maze/tabernacle/mishra/barbarian ring and spend "g" to cycle from hand instead. And with exploration out I can play 2 lands that do stuff, while you only can play 1 because you have to play out canopy, thus I win.
It's not that simple:

1) Loam is more vulnerable to CB;

2) Canopy is easier on the mana and at the same time a better land (especially important in the early turns);

This is from the perspective of 27+/-1 land ("US") builds. With more lands (30+ like in some European builds) Canopy's downside might be more intolerable.

morgan_coke

09-21-2009, 03:05 PM

TheKingslayer

09-30-2009, 04:51 PM

What is the reason for ignoring horn of greed?

sco0ter

09-30-2009, 05:01 PM

So this land got spoiled today:

Magosi, the Waterveil
Enters the battlefield tapped.
T: Add U to your mana pool.
T: Skip your next turn and put an eon counter on ~this~.
U, T: Remove an Eon counter from ~this~ and return it to your hand: Take an extra turn after this one.

When paired with Rings of Brighthearth and Deserted Temple, it yields infinite turns at the cost of six mana and a land drop each turn. Given that two of the pieces of this combo are lands, and the third is pretty useful in this deck on its own, this seems like a rather good choice to run as a combo finish in the deck. Additionally, the combo isn't GY dependent once its been assembled.

Thoughts?

Does that really work with Deserted Temple?
You can tap Magosi twice, but you also skip your next TWO turns, don't you?
Then you get your turn and can activate it for two extra turns.

Instead of skipping one turn and get it back after that, you now skip 2 turns, and get them back.

Or am I missing something?

@Horn of Greed: It is symmetrical, but we can abuse it better. I guess it's not bad, but obviously not needed. Or win-more.
It is played in UG Turboland which combos off with infinite turns, too. (Walk the Eons).

Jaynel

09-30-2009, 05:14 PM

Does that really work with Deserted Temple?
You can tap Magosi twice, but you also skip your next TWO turns, don't you?
Then you get your turn and can activate it for two extra turns.

Instead of skipping one turn and get it back after that, you now skip 2 turns, and get them back.

Or am I missing something?

@Horn of Greed: It is symmetrical, but we can abuse it better. I guess it's not bad, but obviously not needed. Or win-more.
It is played in UG Turboland which combos off with infinite turns, too. (Walk the Eons).

I think the idea is to do this:
In play: Rings, Deserted Temple

Play Magosi (Magosi tapped, Temple untapped).
Activate Temple targetting Magosi, Ring the ability targetting Magosi again.
Resolve the first activation and untap Magosi. Before the copied Temple activation resolves, activate Magosi, skipping your next turn and adding a counter. Then resolve the copied Temple activation (Magosi untapped, Temple tapped).
Activate Magosi, Ring the ability, take two extra turns. The first one gets skipped, so take your second extra turn and repeat.

Total mana needed: 5U (I think).

Watcher487

10-01-2009, 05:21 AM

Overall if you wish to go infinte turns with the deck, you should probably consider Time Vault first considering all you need for that is Time Vault and Rings of Brighthearth. There really isn't anything other than more 'fetches' that Zendikar has given us.

leander?

10-01-2009, 10:27 AM

Time Vault is banned:wink:

Shawon

10-01-2009, 10:54 AM

Watcher487

10-02-2009, 06:52 AM

Strangely enough the term still works. If you want to go infinite turns you should consider Time Vault, since you would either way be playing by yourself. But seriously why do you need to go infinite with this deck in the first place? It's too much mana and too much set up with the new land.

On Lotus Cobra, as much as would love to go nuts and start flaming about the card about how over hyped it is (The Source gets random notes about how cards could be meta changing.) I really just can't see what the Cobra could do for the deck that it's own mana base and deck can't do on it's own. Eternal Garden is a lock-down control deck that could mimic Landstill or mimic Staxx or even mimic It's The Fear from time to time. If the deck was running something that need more mana every turn, like switching the deck over and playing Counterbalance, I could picture maybe running Cobra, but it's 2-4 slots the deck just can't give up.

menace13

11-30-2009, 08:17 PM

leander?

11-30-2009, 10:35 PM

Time Vault is banned:wink:
2 months late dude.

Watcher487

11-30-2009, 11:17 PM

Isn't Time Vault banned in Legacy?

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/news/09012008

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Resources.aspx?x=judge/resources/sfrlegacy

Gawd damnn cheaters!

I was being sarcastic in that regard. I know that Time Vault is banned currently in this format and if you read the post I made after it (aka the post above yours) you will see that.

In other things to remark, I might as well post a list for you guys to bounce around or not do anything with.

2 Vindicate
1 Crime // Punishment
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Smokestack
1 Death Cloud
1 Raven's Crime
4 Intuition
1 Eternal Witness
4 Exploration
1 Life from the Loam
2 Cataclysm
3 Path to Exile

1 Glacial Chasm
1 Academy Ruins
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgamoth
1 Nomad Stadium
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Tabernacle at Pendrall Vale
6 Fetches
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea

Maveric78f

12-01-2009, 08:04 AM

The deck does not need any combo finish (infinite turns). It does not really need card advantage neither (Horizon Canopy is here just in case, but most of all it's a painful savannah). It's probably the most controlish deck in the metagame. Its locks are powerful and easily tutored. Its weaknesses are non-basic hate (Moon effects, B2B, PoP) and graveyard hate (Leyline, Tormod, Relic, Trap). Chalice + Krosan Grip deal with all this (plus dealing with other stuffs such as combo or countertop) except Magus of the Moon. Magus is dealt with Flame Jab.

Watcher487

12-01-2009, 08:56 AM

Well, the win for me whenever I have played the deck has usually been Coliseum recursion post-Stripfest. Now yes, I do agree with you that Canopy isn't the best thing since sliced bread for this deck (as opposed to Zoo) it has shown it's abiltity to get the engine going on weaker hands.

I actually hate Flame Jab in this deck, but I do run it in the sideboard as a 1-of.

Really the big thing for me when I play this deck is win game 1, and then usually go to time before my opponent can win game 2 usually.

DukeDemonKn1ght

12-01-2009, 03:27 PM

Really the big thing for me when I play this deck is win game 1, and then usually go to time before my opponent can win game 2 usually.

QFT. I really love this deck, I used to test it on MWS. I think it's a potential candidate for coolest deck in Legacy.

That being said, I think it's sad how this deck gets hated out of the meta so much, since the two forms of hate that are most effective against it (grave hate and nonbasic hate) are so prevalent. After all, the coolest deck doesn't necessarily win the match.

I think one of these days, this deck might make a comeback. But sadly, now is not its time.

Antonius

12-03-2009, 05:48 AM

why don't people run Ports in this deck? I thought 4 ports/4 wastes would be mandatory for mana disruption...

Atwa

12-03-2009, 04:12 PM

why don't people run Ports in this deck? I thought 4 ports/4 wastes would be mandatory for mana disruption...

The deck has no room for Ports. And also, in lands.dec you play waste/port so you are sure to get a piece of manadenial.

With Crop rotation and gamble, you have enough tutors to get a piece of disruption when you need it and don't dredge it in or draw it. I'd rather have a waste then a port anyway. Even Ghost Quarter in this deck is way better since you can take out a few lands each turn with both Exploration and Crucible on the table.

Then again, with this deck you have so many roles you can play, you don't really need to rely on the land disruption that much.

Jeff Kruchkow

12-03-2009, 04:32 PM

I was being sarcastic in that regard. I know that Time Vault is banned currently in this format and if you read the post I made after it (aka the post above yours) you will see that.

In other things to remark, I might as well post a list for you guys to bounce around or not do anything with.

2 Vindicate
1 Crime // Punishment
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Smokestack
1 Death Cloud
1 Raven's Crime
4 Intuition
1 Eternal Witness
4 Exploration
1 Life from the Loam
2 Cataclysm
3 Path to Exile

1 Glacial Chasm
1 Academy Ruins
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgamoth
1 Nomad Stadium
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Tabernacle at Pendrall Vale
6 Fetches
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea

1 Death Cloud, 1 Witness and 1 Crime/Punishment doesnt seem like enough to win. After all if they remove witness you're up shit creek without a paddle.

DukeDemonKn1ght

12-03-2009, 05:03 PM

1 Death Cloud, 1 Witness and 1 Crime/Punishment doesnt seem like enough to win. After all if they remove witness you're up shit creek without a paddle.

True dat. Don't most versions of this deck usually use 1x Profane Command also?

Watcher487

12-03-2009, 07:16 PM

True dat. Don't most versions of this deck usually use 1x Profane Command also?

Usually, but I use Death Cloud as another Cataclysm that can kill everything. But you guys should pay attention.....

Well, the win for me whenever I have played the deck has usually been Coliseum recursion post-Stripfest.

Let alone you guys forget about Academy Ruins. Usually I make sure they don't have any mana left in the deck before I start going for the throat.

Domel

01-28-2010, 04:37 AM

What do you think about newest Patric Bouvier's version? It packs both 4 Wastelands/Prots + 1 Ghost Quarter and I wind this really great.

Decklist:

4 Crop Rotation
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Exploration
4 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Zuran Orb

1 Academy Ruins
1 Barbarian Ring
3 City of Traitors
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Maze of Ith
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Rishadan Port
1 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
4 Krosan Grip
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Trinisphere

Btw: isn't Bojuka Bog just perfect for this deck? Crypt at instant speed thanks to Crop Rotation :):):):)

Bojuka Bog Land
Bojuka Bog enters the battlefield tapped.
: Add to your mana pool.
When Bojuka Bog enters the battlefield, exile all cards from target player’s graveyard.

Atwa

01-28-2010, 06:23 PM

I play a completely different version of the deck, but I think I will test the Bog out. There are a few things I hate about the deck and one of it is it's vulnerability against a turn 2 Reanimated Inkwell Leviathan or (to a lesser extent) Iona.

Here is the list I play now (mostly inspired of the lists Pulpfiction gave me):

4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Burning Wish
3 Crop Rotation
3 Life from the Loam
2 Gamble
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Enlightened Tutor

3 Windswept Heath
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Maze of Ith
3 Treetop Village
3 Tranquil Thicket
1 the Tabernacle at Pendrell vale
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Academy Ruins
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Nomad Stadium

SB:
3 Krosan Grip
2 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Circle of Protection: Black (Korean 4th, sexiest card ever)
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Gamble
1 Life from the Loam
1 Rolling Earthquake
1 Worm Harvest
1 Regrowth
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree
1 Flame Jab

Food for thought:
I am having serious trouble with Reanimator. Inkwell Leviathan and Iona on either Red or Green cripples the deck more than it should. I am considering the Bog as a solution for this. Especially Inkwell makes it difficult for me. I have been thinking about Shatterstom since it doesn't target, at the risk of loosing your own Crucibles. I might decide to try out Wrath of God.

I actually only want graveyard hate against Reanimator. I can hold of Goyfs all day and the dredge matchup is big joke, mull into a Tabernable and/or Crop Rotation and you've just reached a 95% advantage in that game.

As for solutions against Crypt/Relic, I've need seriously been considering Null Rod, Krosan Grip is often too little too late and hits only once. I know this hurts our Moxes and Explosives, however this card is also good to side in against combo. The combo matchup is so bad I wouldn't want any room devoted to it in my side against it. However, Rod is pretty good against almost all combo matchup (except for Solidarity and Dreams Halls) in addition to the main reason to include it.

You shut down SDT, artifact mana (LED, Petal, moxes), Belcher and other cards we dislike as Crypt/Relic and equipment. As a funny side effect, landing this card against Affinity spells GG. The only problem I see with this card is that it gives us permanents in the cc=2 range, which is our favored Explosives range. But you can't use Explosives with a Rod on the table anyway.

Rolling Earthquake is perfect in the side. It gets rid of Magus with ease, shoots Tombstalker out of the sky and makes Burning Wish a way better topdeck against aggro (especially tribal) decks than wishing into Devastating Dreams will ever be. I'd even suggest playing normal Earthquake for budget reasons over Dreams. You can even use it as a finisher (or a way to force a draw), which does matter in some games.

Any thoughts?

ClearSkies

01-28-2010, 10:15 PM

Inkwell? You see that often? I would think that you have more trouble with Progenitus more.

Ensnaring Bridge or Humility gets rid of them usually. Sometimes Tariff out of Burning Wish might be a good idea since those creatures are usually the highest casting cost.

Pulp_Fiction

01-29-2010, 05:07 AM

Tariff is sick, I didn't even know that existed, I was going to suggest Chainer's Edict or Innocent Blood as an answer but damn, thats awesome! This is probably the only deck in the format, next to Loam with Knight in it, that can abuse the Bog properly. I really like the card but why would you need to continually Crypt someone? The only matchup this seems even remotely decent in is Dredge and ... thats already a bye. I think a wish slot in the board to handle Reanimator should be good. Plus, Crop Rotate into Bog only handles it once. Then they will just wait till their turn (when you can no longer get Bog at instant speed), and reanimate something. If it really is a problem in your meta just play some Relics in the board (which is great since you can E-Tutor for them)!

Don't worry about your opponent playing Crypt and Relic, it really isn't a serious problem when you are running Crucible. Just bait the hate cards with as little as possible and keep a surprise cycle land in your hand, or don't be afraid to just throw a Loam away to make them use it. Play with the absolute minimum disruption and beat them into a corner where it forces them to lose their hate, then keep playing that way unless you can lock them out. Always assume they are slow-rolling the hate.

Atwa

01-29-2010, 06:05 AM

Inkwell? You see that often? I would think that you have more trouble with Progenitus more.

I play with 3 Circle of Protections and an Enlitened Tutor. Circles don't target the Prog, so they work perfectly.

Tariff is sick, I didn't even know that existed, I was going to suggest Chainer's Edict or Innocent Blood as an answer but damn, thats awesome!
I was already thinking about Chainer's Edict, however I don't play black in the deck at the moment, and I didn't want to diverse my manabase any further. But I should have thought about Tariff. I've played that card in a lot of WW decks over the years. I'll try it out.

This is probably the only deck in the format, next to Loam with Knight in it, that can abuse the Bog properly. I really like the card but why would you need to continually Crypt someone? The only matchup this seems even remotely decent in is Dredge and ... thats already a bye. I think a wish slot in the board to handle Reanimator should be good. Plus, Crop Rotate into Bog only handles it once. Then they will just wait till their turn (when you can no longer get Bog at instant speed), and reanimate something. If it really is a problem in your meta just play some Relics in the board (which is great since you can E-Tutor for them)!
You are right about Relic over the Bog. When I sleeved up the deck I found out I didn't have any Relics in my collection and they dealer was delayed due to the snow, so I couldn't get them in time before the start of the tournament. Crypt sucks in the side.

Don't worry about your opponent playing Crypt and Relic, it really isn't a serious problem when you are running Crucible. Just bait the hate cards with as little as possible and keep a surprise cycle land in your hand, or don't be afraid to just throw a Loam away to make them use it. Play with the absolute minimum disruption and beat them into a corner where it forces them to lose their hate, then keep playing that way unless you can lock them out. Always assume they are slow-rolling the hate.
I really have problems with some sort of Dreadstill/Dark Depths deck which packs 4 Relics. Turn 1 Relic, Turn 2 Dreadnaught, turn 3 Marit Lage is pretty hard to fight. You can't slowroll that matchup and Relic hurts way some than it should be.

Domel

01-29-2010, 07:01 AM

Null rod is interesting against hate but i do nothing with leyline. I agree with Pulp_Fiction's way of playing against relic/crypt but against LotV you just need to have 4 Grips. The same goes for B2B. Have to check how good null rod is vs ANT but guess that trinisphere/mindbreak trap is better.

To some point I agree that Bog is little overwin agains Ichorid but if they run Woodfall Primus/Angel of Despair your Chasm is not an auto win. Bog is also an answer to situation when they are very fast.

It can help with aggro loam/mirror/reanimator/stax/ and even ANT if they decide to go with IGG. For me - very good addition for Garden.

Pulp_Fiction

01-30-2010, 02:34 AM

Null Rod is amazing and a whole lot more versatile than Mindbreak Trap. Trap is better against combo in general since they HAVE to Duress you or Chant you to deal with it. Null Rod will temporarily shut them down while they dig for a bounce spell/Disenchant. The problem with Null Rod is that this deck does not have any kind of clock to capitalize on after dropping it and temporarily stopping them. Trap is way to single-minded for me to ever run in a SB, mainly because you are devoting 4x slots to a single matchup that doesn't even come up in our favor AFTER the board. Even with Trap you will only win ... maybe 35% of the time as opposed to the 5-15% normally. I am guestimating this but I play a LOT of storm combo and have never lost a match in a tournament to any Lands! variant. A very viable option is a single Extract in the wishboard. Most combo lists don't run more than a singleton Tendrils and (had I not been playing TES) one of my buddies played Extract on me 3 times in 2 games and would have won had I not been playing Burning Wish. Probably 60% of combo lists don't run more than 1 Tendrils or Burning Wish.

Overall, when running Enlightened Tutor(s) in the main, the idea of running 2x Null Rod in the main is very intriguing. It turns a ton of shit off but is it better than running 3-4 Ancient Grudge which you can only Gamble for? Grudge is probably better but Null Rod is overall an incredibly versatile card that really deserves some testing.