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Barsoom
07-03-2006, 04:17 PM
I always love All type of Mono Blue decks, expecially BBS et similia, and now i think that Legacy is a good format for it.
I want suggestions and feed about this deck i play at this time.

"Mono Blue"

Creatures
4 Ophidian
2 Morphling
Draw
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Impulse
4 Brainstorm
Counters
4 Mana Leak
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
Others
4 Powder Keg
3 Vedalken Shackles
Land
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
14 Island
Sideboard
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Back To Basics
3 Stifle
1 Misdirection

as you see the list is very similar at the list of Anusien in THIS (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/9465.html) Article at StarCityGames, where he explain very well the Cards and the Philosophy.
Different choices from me are the Vedalken Shackles in the board and Back to basics in sideboard.

About the first i want to say that the most important card of the deck is Vedalken Shackles; They are very strong and probably i go for 3 in board leave one Misdirection. (and also are very funny to play; win with others creatures is always amusing :wink: )
About back to basics i don't use is very much because i don't need it for now! in my meta with goblins, stompy, combo the wastelands are enought, at least in the 1° game. When need i go for it in the 2° and is right for me.
Also Chalice help a lot vs gobs and combo like solidarity.
Versus Combo decks i win all times or so too many counterspells for them.

Ok now i want to know what you think guys about this deck for me is very strong and fun (for me sure for enemies not very much they get bored every time!! :laugh: )...

troopatroop
07-03-2006, 06:07 PM
I hope you understand, that declaring yourself a 70% win against goblins, and blaming it on Vedlaken Shackles, makes you an absolute liar. Maybe you're playing against Neanderthals, which would be more believable.

They run 8 1-drops that decimate you.

You play no removal.

You're playing Morphling.

You're playing Ophidian.

You basically have no good matchups against anything but straight combo, like Iggy Pop, but even they could slowplay you games 2 and 3, and wreck you. There isn't a single deck that I want to play against in a tournament more than BBS. Not a single one. This includes Thunder Bluff. Didgeridoo is a better card than Morphling.

Benie Bederios
07-03-2006, 07:03 PM
I've played for BBS for a while and I think you need Force Spike. This card is great in Legacy, where every player wants to cast there threads a soon as possible, and you have nothing much to do on turn 1. This deck needs atleast 16 counters, because it lacks removal.

I also should up the landcount to 24. You don't want to miss anylanddrops and Morphling will cost some mana to use. As for Fetches I found 6 is the right number, to use you're Brainstorms.

As for Carddraw I use Fact or Fiction, Brainstorm and Ophidian and it seems enough. Impulse doesn't do alot, and most of the time you won't have the mana in the early game because you had to counters something.

You're matchup against Goblins is not 70% in your favor, I would say 35%. If you play it perfect against a average player you might play 50/50. But you need to play Force Spikes to hold off turn 2 and turn 3 spells, atleast 3 Shackles maindeck and BEB from the Sideboard. The Ophidian has a nice blocking duty. And Powder Kegs can get rid off Vial/ Lackey.

On the side here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3529) is another Mono-U control deck that uses Proteus Staff as win.

Kadaj
07-03-2006, 09:29 PM
This deck has more issues then I care to explain in a year, but here goes.

This is not Type 1, Legacy is dominated by aggro and aggro-control decks, both of which will absolutely stomp this deck. 2 Vedalken Shackles isn't enough to do ANYTHING against goblins, as you'll be getting it online by 4 at the earliest, and by then you've already lost. Second, running more than 10 permission spells is asking to get burned when you're playing against aggro, and as aggro is everywhere, it's a flat out bad idea in this format.

Again, this isn't Type 1, Powder Keg is far too slow to matter when used in a deck like this, when you're biggest issues are the first 4 or 5 turns, which means Powder Keg is far too slow to matter. The ONLY way a BBS deck in this format is going to work is if you run 4 Propaganda and 4 Vedalken Shackles along with additional methods of disrupting aggro, and even then, you still won't have anywhere near a 70% matchup against anything other than Zoo, and that's because B2B tends to slaughter them. Then again, even in that matchup they can still easily overrun you early.

You can't hope to counter every threat someone's going to play in a format where creatures run absolutely rampant. It's just not going to happen.

Lord Dralnu
07-03-2006, 10:38 PM
He didn't say he had a 70% win agaisnt goblins. He said 70% of the times he does win is because of vedalken shackles. It's not his fault you can't understand his poor grammar.
They do have a point, however about BBS in legacy. There is a reason it isn't here. It sucks vs aggro.
Everything else has been said.

Barsoom
07-04-2006, 05:41 AM
He didn't say he had a 70% win agaisnt goblins. He said 70% of the times he does win is because of vedalken shackles.

Yes he is right sry for my poor grammar :confused:
I win like 30% against goblins, many times 2-1, and in the times i win vedalken shackles are at 70% what make me win. now understand troopatroop?
About Force Spike i play it some times but i don't like it very much. vs goblins i have Fow to counter their t1 lackey, and powder keg/chalice that work quite good.
Powder kegs are also absolutely wonderful vs Affinity, and i don't lose any match vs it.
I know that this deck have many many problems vs aggro and don't have good chance in Legacy current format, but is fun for me and in my meta i win a bit times for not to leave it.
Anymore thx to all for answers :wink:

A Banana
07-04-2006, 12:16 PM
I have found that for BBS to survive in this aggro dominated metagame you need to run accell and removal. Therefore, I would run 2 more Shackles, 4 Force Spikes, and 4 Ancient Tombs in place of 4 Wasteland, 2 Misdirection, 2 Counterspells. Now I know that is 62 cards, but then we can remove 4 Ophidians since they will always be blocked, and add 2 Nevinyrall's Disks. This, I have found, is the best way to run BBS.

Barsoom
07-05-2006, 05:19 PM
mmm for the Shackles i agree with you indeed i leave 1 misdirection and go for 1 shack now 3 shackles board; about Ancient Tombs they don't make good with also 4 fetch. When i win vs Goblins i win at like 4-5 life points average then with tombs i die!! :frown:
Nevinyrall's Disks are too slow only 5 turn when go good Powder Keg + Shacles more useful;
About Ophidians they don't only attack but also blocks some little goblin creatures like lachey and other 2/2 then for me are strong here.

Poron
07-05-2006, 06:17 PM
This is a list I'd rather run.

4 Mishra's Factory
18 Island

Counters:
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Leak/Arcane Denial
4 Counterspell
2/3 Misdirection

Draw:
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
2 Opt
2 Peek (they're great, indeed)

Lock:
4 Arcane Laboratory
4 Isochrone Scepter (anyway, even if you don't imprint it with Counterspell you can imprint with Impulse for example :), great dig..)

3 Proteus Staff
1 Goblin Charbelcher

I don't know what to cut but you HAVE to add Boomerang or Echoing truth. And Powder keg and Propaganda.

perhaps you can cut Misdirection and some Draw.

Can be a good deck anyway.. by side blu has also Chill.. the most broken side card in the game

Poron
07-05-2006, 06:56 PM
arcane + isochone is still the best choice.

I would run this as fast as possible

You have 57 posts here. This means that by now, you should have read the forum rules (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3341&postcount=1). This constant plugging of ScepterLab is bordering on spam. This is your first warning.
~ Nightmare

APriestOfGix
07-14-2006, 01:05 AM
OK so I was trying to build the ultimate legacy deck and went first to type. Combo, Control, Aggro. I think that control will do the best as it has answers to combo, and control, and can be fast enough in this format to stop aggro (depending on the color). Next I went for the color, and Blue was the clear favorite. 1) Counters, 2) and answer to ANYTHING, and 3) It's the best control color.

So I started brain stroming a list: (This is just an idea, and is extreamly open to tampering)

BBS Legacy Proto-type

starting ground:
4 x Force of Will
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Counterspell
4 x Veldelken Shackles
4 x Daze
4 x Thirst for Knowledge
4 x Chrome Mox
4 x Spire Golem
4 x Propaganda
4 x Boomerang
6 x Fetches
3 x Faiere Conclave
15 x Island

Card choices:
Force Of Will - Solid Free counterspell

Brainstorm - Draws, and lets bad cards get shuffled

Counterspell - Best counterspell ever!!! (it's the first, and only COUNTERSPELL)

Shackles - Answer to aggro, and Piledriver, as he is non-targetable by all your other cards

Daze - Free counterspell (May be dropped)

Thirst - Card drawing, good outlet for late game Mox's

Mox - Accleration

Golem - (May be 1-2 Morphling, w/ 1-2 more cards) Quick easy creature, evasion.

Propaganda - Anti aggro

Boomerang - All around board control

Fetches - Works w/ Brainstorm

Conclave - early blocker (last resort), win's against control.

Morim_Brightsmoke
07-14-2006, 02:04 AM
Have you thought about sensei's divining top and counterbalance as possible includes together. It would require a couple other changes(probably wanting all 8 fetches and mayeb mystical tutor), but is a sick combination.
Also why boomerang over other bounce?
Lastly, why no FoF?

SuckerPunch
07-14-2006, 03:00 AM
Edit: The below post is directed at dragondemon 1's list, which was originally posted as a seperate thread in the open forum, but later merged onto this thread.

First, I'm absolutely convinced that BBS is about to make a resurgance in the format. It was never a bad deck deck, it was never unviable, just forgotten, and Meloku and counterbalance are two more tools it now has. If I had time to put together a list and test it to back this statement up, I would by all means.

Not to be harsh, but frankly, I don't see why this particular list or thread belongs in the Open Forum rather than the Developmental Forum.

It has no results, no testing, and the build itself seems very early and much worse than most traditional BBS lists I've seen.

4x Boomerang, 4x Thirst in a deck with so few artifacts, artifacts you would rarely want to discard, 4x Daze in a deck clearly meant to have a very long game, all seem like bad choices.

And I don't see how this deck can expect to have game against either Goblins or Threshold, the two best decks in the format.

Barsoom
07-14-2006, 06:23 AM
Oh Oh this deck seems not dead as someone want to believe... :confused:
One Monoblue with a list very similar as mine make 11° at STG Dual For Duals.
Here the list, taken by this thread at SCG Forum The Dual For Duel Results Thread (http://www.starcitygames.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=290766)
Here the MUC list Quickdraw got 11th with

2xmorphling
4xophidian
3xbrainstorm
4xforce of will
4xcounterspell
4xmana leak
3ximpulse
3xfact or fiction
2xvedalken shackles
2xmisdirection
2xback to basics
3xpowder keg
3xquicksand
4xwasteland
3xpolluted delta
3xflooded strand
11xisland

sb
4xhydroblast
1xblue elemental blast
2xvedalken shackles
1xback to basics
1xmisdirection
4xchalice of the void
2xstifle

As you see this list is quite similar as mine he take out -1 FoF -1 Brain -1 Impulse -1 Keg -1 Shackles for +2 Back to Basics (very strong in this meta they hurts like 80% of the current decks good in maindeck here) and +3 quicksand (never test this i wanna know if work good). He also go for 2 more fetch (this seem to me quite danger vs goblins but i want to know what the author think).
Ok then if the Guy playing this deck read this plz post here a report or considerations about the deck and the tournament if he want.
Finally Congratulation, you show that this deck can be Viable in Legacy!!! :wink:

Moby Dick
07-14-2006, 07:44 AM
i think that if mono blue is going to be competetive, you'll need to splash red for fire/ice, pyroclasm, and other red goodies. a while ago (maybe a year or two) i was at a sunday legacy tournament, and i saw this kid playing a 1.5 march of machines deck. it was basicly muc, with a red splash for fire/ice obliterate and URZAS RAGE. it ran MotM with darksteel ignots and shackles for a win condition

it looked something like this:

?x MotM
?x obliterate
4 DS ignot
?x shackles

4x FoW
4x counterspell
4x force spike
?mana leak?
?x FOF
?thirst for knowledge?
4x fire/ice
4x brainstorm
2 or 3x urzas rage

it looked realy fun to play, and could take alot of people by shock game 1

dre4m
07-14-2006, 10:04 AM
I think Mana Leak would be a much better replacement for Daze, and you could maybe even add Rune Snag if you want to counter lots of spells. I always recommend Fact or Fiction in a deck that likes to draw lots of cards, like this one. I have a BBS build that I like to play once and a while, and it actually wins VERY consistently, but my matches all seem to take an hour and a half, so it's almost never my deck of choice. I really like Ophidian and I really don't like Spire Golem, but that is more personal preference than anything. I think this deck will not place well in any large event because its records will tend tword X-X-3 due to the match lengths.

Nightmare
07-14-2006, 10:49 AM
Threads merged.

SuckerPunch
07-14-2006, 11:30 AM
Going back to the original list, I actually think this archeatype isn't unviable, but it needs to evolve...

Counterbalance should be tested, in place of something like Impulse. You don't need to add anything else on top of Brainstorm, it's fine by itself I'm guessing.

Meloku is a better creature than Morphling IMO.

You probably want to run 4x Shackles since aggro is so dominant in the format.

Scrying Sheets and possibly Mouth of Ronom along with all Snowbased Islands should help your tempo out a good bit.

You need a better plan against goblins, as Powder Keg just doesn't cut it. You would need a faster sweeper like Wrath or Mutilate or something at the very least, and even then, they can likely recover unless you also have a Shackles out.

This is just a rough list but...

Creatures
3 Meloku
Draw
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
Counters
3 Counterbalance - Need to Test
4 Mana Leak
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
Others
4 Sweeper/Goblins Hate - May Need to Splash
4 Vedalken Shackles
Land
4 Mouth of Ronom
4 Scrying Sheets
14 Snow Covered Island
Sideboard
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Back To Basics
3 Stifle

You should have a fine game against combo and do fairly well against aggro control thanks in large part to Shackles. Goblins and other fast weenie decks need a good sweeper in that slot, one that I can't think of right now.

PunkRocker1134
07-14-2006, 12:14 PM
Nev Disk is a great sweep and with excel it can hit play turn 3 for a turn 4 activation. And its cheap on you too, thing is it can be hit with Needle.

SuckerPunch
07-14-2006, 12:47 PM
When I mentioned sweeper in my post, Disk was the first card I was thinking of.

But I decided that it's not good enough for the following reasons...

You have to keep it in play one turn to be able to use it, and so many decks run artifact destruction (thanks to all the equipment) either main or SB. Goblins runs Golblin Tinkerer or that other 2/1 golbin that destroys an artifact when it comes into play. So many of the other decks run Pithing Needle either main or SB, and while not as important, Disk kills your own Shackles too.

That's why I think a sweeper that specifically kills all creatures immediately is more suitable. And that requires a splash. Every color other than Blue and Green offers such a sweeper that's viable. So deciding which color to splash is up to you.

White has a lead in my eyes because Enlightened Tutor in addition to letting you fetch lots of great artifacts that you run, also works beautifully with Counterbalance, to instantly top deck whatever cc artifact you need. You would need to run 1 Pithing Needle and 1 Isochron Sceptar to supplement it though, but both cards fortunately work beautifully in the deck.

So I would suggest splashing white and add to the above list I posted...
4 Enlightened Tutor - Also combos with the Counterbalance I run
1 Pithing Needle
1 Isochron Sceptar
3 Humility (Possibly Wrath of God)
-3 Meloku
+3 Exalted Angel - Great versus Goblins


If you end up going with Wrath, I would run Mystical Tutor to help grab it, and since it works with Counterbalance too.

Barsoom
09-09-2006, 09:36 AM
Going back to the original list, I actually think this archeatype isn't unviable, but it needs to evolve...

Counterbalance should be tested, in place of something like Impulse. You don't need to add anything else on top of Brainstorm, it's fine by itself I'm guessing.

Meloku is a better creature than Morphling IMO.

You probably want to run 4x Shackles since aggro is so dominant in the format.

Scrying Sheets and possibly Mouth of Ronom along with all Snowbased Islands should help your tempo out a good bit.

You need a better plan against goblins, as Powder Keg just doesn't cut it. You would need a faster sweeper like Wrath or Mutilate or something at the very least, and even then, they can likely recover unless you also have a Shackles out.

This is just a rough list but...

Creatures
3 Meloku
Draw
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
Counters
3 Counterbalance - Need to Test
4 Mana Leak
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
Others
4 Sweeper/Goblins Hate - May Need to Splash
4 Vedalken Shackles
Land
4 Mouth of Ronom
4 Scrying Sheets
14 Snow Covered Island
Sideboard
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Back To Basics
3 Stifle

You should have a fine game against combo and do fairly well against aggro control thanks in large part to Shackles. Goblins and other fast weenie decks need a good sweeper in that slot, one that I can't think of right now.

Then after like 2 months (:confused: ) i want to reply to you.
First about Meloku; i don't know how this guy is better than Morphling. it suffer simply to every form of disruption that exist in the world, a thing that Morph don't cause his untargetably ability (and then you dont need a counter to protect it).
Second abount Powder Kegs; they are simply good against 1cc Creatures and Artifacts and what do you want in the format (like Needle, Lackley, Mongoose, Vials ecc ecc); i never want to cut them out. Maybe is not the BEST choice vs Gobs but now the meta have many others decks good; BeB in the SB are specially for Goblin, and this is enough. (don't misunderstand me anyhow; Goblin matchup is one of worst if not The worst, and is ever diffucult to play against).
Third i agree to you about 4 Shack main and also with cutting out Impulses; i found impulse little useless quite times, and maybe is the time to find other thing in their place. Conterbalance looks good, but need a bit testing. Another that looks good is Stifle, that can be amazing vs many many decks.
Finally one thing about BBS vs Combo. Now that combo like Solidarity and Iggy-Pop are growing in commonness, i think that this deck can make some show, as well only for the good matchups that he have vs them, helped a lot with Chalices and Stifles in Side.

Poron
09-09-2006, 09:57 AM
But... (now I'll find Mr Nithgmare's Rage, asd :D) WHY not Arcane Lab in this deck? Ok, not Isochrone because it's a bad choice and I totally agree but, why not Arcane Lab?

It owns, on its own ALL storm combo decks, it slows fast deck and it also allows you to have sure counters: when you pass and you have a Counterspell in your hand while there is a Arcane Lab online, don't you (or wouldn't you all) fell safe?

I' definitly would run, indeed...

Barsoom
09-09-2006, 10:58 AM
I agree with you that slow down Combo decks (more that slow down they scoop to it) but not that slow fast deck.
It cost 3 and don't Destroy (as Powder Keg) or steal (as Shackles) permanents that are in play; it only (with counters) destroy the future aims of opponent, and i think that this don't help cause at turn 3 you need to destroy/steal creatures/artifacts and don't prepare for future...
Anyhow it may hit the Side vs Combo, together with Chalices.

Barsoom
10-09-2006, 10:12 AM
Hey Hey one Mono Blue BBS top8 at SCG Duel for Duals (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4399)!!!!

I'm very interesting to see decklist.
Expectant this Move Us to Open Forum!!!

The Lotus Eater
10-09-2006, 11:15 AM
I agree with the white splash, as it gives you access to one of the most needed cards in this deck - Swords to Plowshares.

You'll also have access to Wrath of God, Decree of Justice, Exalted Angel, Meddling Mage, and Disenchant.

I really don't think MuC can be a true contender in 1.5 without a spalsh. BwBS.

Barsoom
10-09-2006, 11:59 AM
I agree with the white splash, as it gives you access to one of the most needed cards in this deck - Swords to Plowshares.

You'll also have access to Wrath of God, Decree of Justice, Exalted Angel, Meddling Mage, and Disenchant.

I really don't think MuC can be a true contender in 1.5 without a spalsh. BwBS.

Dunno if the list at SCG run White, by the name seems no, but wait until we see that damn list...

Sugar Woof
10-10-2006, 02:37 AM
The list didn't run white, it was straight mono U. As for playing white wouldn't it just be easier to go along with a Landstill build because that's basically what it would become. It wouldn't be much different and Mono U is less susceptible to things like wasteland.

Benie Bederios
10-10-2006, 04:10 AM
It was a very basic list. I was kinda stunned when I saw it. I assumed something with MD Chalice or other weird stuf, but it was just plain old BBS with Shackles, B2B and Powderkeg. The only difference was that it played Quicksand instead of Wasteland, but that was a logical difference. Maybe the list was the best BBS list al along.

Peter_Rotten
10-10-2006, 11:44 AM
I'm actually excited about this deck too, but let's stop posting about how excited we are and let's start posting some facts worthy of discussion. A deck list, for starters, sure would be "thetitz."

Barsoom
10-10-2006, 12:12 PM
I'm actually excited about this deck too, but let's stop posting about how excited we are and let's start posting some facts worthy of discussion. A deck list, for starters, sure would be "thetitz."

Okey i start with my current decklist:

4 Ophidian
2 Morphling

4 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm
3 Impulse

4 Mana Leak
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection

4 Powder Keg
3 Vedalken Shackles

4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
14 Island

Sideboard
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Back To Basics
3 Stifle
1 Vedalken Shackles

I try Stifle Main but i feel that he don't work so better MD in this deck. He is very amazing vs Combo and against a ton cards of the field, but i think that in this deck the right place is in Side and not MD.
As you can see my current list don't change so much by the list at start of the thread.
I want to see decklist of the 5° place at SCG and compare to my; i hear rumors that he have Quicksand instead of Wasteland but dunno for sure.
If that Guy can post here his decklist we will be very Happy!!!

Sugar Woof
10-10-2006, 01:02 PM
15 [6E] Island (2)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [VI] Quicksand
2 [TE] Wasteland
4 [WL] Ophidian
2 [US] Morphling
4 [5E] Brainstorm
2 [UD] Powder Keg
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [VI] Impulse
4 [6E] Counterspell
4 [9E] Mana Leak
3 [IN] Fact or Fiction
3 [LG] Force Spike
2 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 2 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [U] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void


This is a similar list to what t8'd at d4d day 1. I'm not sure if it is the exact he ran, this is a list he sent me a few weeks prior to the event. One thing I do know was that he had repeal in the sb of the t8 list.


@Elf
If there is heavy Hymn to tourachs and gerrard's verdicts floating around playing misdirection can pick up those matches greatly and with Mono U, Thresh shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Cavius The Great
10-10-2006, 04:26 PM
15 [6E] Island (2)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [VI] Quicksand
2 [TE] Wasteland
4 [WL] Ophidian
2 [US] Morphling
4 [5E] Brainstorm
2 [UD] Powder Keg
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [VI] Impulse
4 [6E] Counterspell
4 [9E] Mana Leak
3 [IN] Fact or Fiction
3 [LG] Force Spike
2 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 2 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [U] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void


This is a similar list to what t8'd at d4d day 1. I'm not sure if it is the exact he ran, this is a list he sent me a few weeks prior to the event. One thing I do know was that he had repeal in the sb of the t8 list.


@Elf
If there is heavy Hymn to tourachs and gerrard's verdicts floating around playing misdirection can pick up those matches greatly and with Mono U, Thresh shouldn't be too much of a problem.


Back to Basics is what makes the deck. I seen builds like that years ago with moderate success. I'd personally would run Echoing Truth to make that nasty little enchantment even nastier.

rsaunder
10-10-2006, 04:32 PM
Why in the nine hells, I wonder, did this list not run propoganda? It can like stall for like forever, yo.

DarkAkuma
10-10-2006, 05:07 PM
If that is the build he used, it definantly is odd. Atleast comepared to my old old MUC deck. Lot less counters, lot more draw. Several odd number cards, and BtB main...

The board is what id exspect for todays popular meta. Cept no Propaganda or Stifles.

I dont dont know. I guess BEB+Spike+Will could hose goblins better then prop, since prop doesent come out till turn 3. But lack of Stifle deffinantly hurts the solidarity match up.

Cavius The Great
10-10-2006, 07:33 PM
If that is the build he used, it definantly is odd. Atleast comepared to my old old MUC deck. Lot less counters, lot more draw. Several odd number cards, and BtB main...

Back to Basics is tech...... it wrecks a large percentage of the decks out there. I don't see anything wrong with that card choice considering alot of tier 1 decks run dual lands.

Maximus04
10-10-2006, 09:11 PM
Okay Okay, enough about what the decklist is all about.

We(Eric McGraw and I) tested BBS for about 3 months. We knew the deck was viable. So I took his old list and started to playtest on MWS.

Here is what we both played at D4D Day 1

15-Islands
3-Quicksand
4-Polluted Delta

4-Ophidian
2-Morphling

4-Force of Will
4-Brainstorm
3-Fact or Fiction
3-Impulse
3-Force Spike
4-Counterspell
4-Mana Leak
2-Vedalken Shackles
2-Powder Keg
2-Back To Basics

Sideboard
1-Vedalken Shackles
2-Repeal
3-Chalice of the Void
3-Hydroblast
2-Blue Elemental Blast
2-Pithing Needle

I top 8'd with this deck. Granted, I only lost to Solidarity the whole day. I had to beat goblins, thresh and affinity to get there. I didnt loose a game to them. Please dont call it luck. Two of the Thresh players i beat in Swiss both Top 8'd. So no more talk about luck.

Dispute:

Morphling is the best creature around. Meloku will still die to Swords. Yeah granted it can stabalize the board against aggro but how long will meloku stay alive. Morphling will die only to Diabolict Edicts and now Sudden Death. It has far more power than Meloku. We tested and tried it, it doesnt work.

Counterbalance is a cool card. We have not tried it in the deck, though I think it wouldnt work in a deck like this. You would have to build something more viable with library manipulation to make it work.

Stifle does work against Iggy but not against Solidarity. They can just merely Remand the Brainfreeze once priority is passed back. The problem with the Solidarity matchup is that BBS doesnt put enough early presssure on them to go off early. They can sit back and get the "nut" hand. Though there are certain ways to get around this. Its not as easy as one might think. Arcane Lab does seem like a viable choice. Though it still needs to be playtested with.

We were once running Misderection SB but realized that it didnt help us enough in matchups. Its a solid card if there is loads of dicard hate(such as Hyms) but the format doesnt see enough of it to make it a staple in the deck.

Impulse is powerful. It helps get through your deck when you need that Shackles, a Back to Basics, maybe a Powderkeg to start blowing up pesky 1 mana costing creatures. It just is helpful overall to get anything you need. Yes, it and manaleak are competing for the turn two drop. Though, Impulse just helps get through your deck quicker to get what you need. Playtest and you will see my point.

Back to Basics MB was changed around August because we kept loosing to certain decks. Imagine dropping BTB on turn 3 to Thresh, Affinity, 41 lands? It is a bomb, and if its not needed. Just pith to a FoW.

ForceSpikes are a must to stabalize the early game. BBS will loose to aggro if it cant stabalize by turn 3. If you can make it past turn 5 without TOO much damage. You will win on attrition...

Quicksands were put in instead of Wastelands because it helped us kill certain aggro creatures and gave us another way of removal. Sure we could have blown up non-basic lands, but wouldnt you rather blow up creatures that are killing you?

Conclusion:

The Sideboard does need some work. Propaganda was not tested, and we do need to improve our matchup against Solidarity.

Each player has his own belief and theory behind sideboard. We used Repeal because it could help us bounce pesky enchantments and creatures while trading for a card for card advantage. Everything else should speak for itself...

If you dont believe in our build, thats fine. Just dont knock it until you've playtested with it.

Gearheart, I look forward to playing against you again...Next Time i will be prepared.

Miniature Kenny
10-11-2006, 03:02 AM
Has anyone else considered running mainboard Chalices? Set at one it shuts down many keys to popular decks. No Lackey, Fanatic, Goose and Thresh cantrips, Duress, Therapy... the list goes on. It does also shut off Brainstorm here, but it's easy to play around. Extras can always be pitched to Force.

I have concluded that the reason MUC has a hard time handling goblins and other aggro is the lack of board control. Chalice helps solve that problem. Maindeck B2B helps with many of the decks that have multicolored manabases but it doens't hurt us at all. Also, has anyone else tested with Propaganda? I've done a little bit with it and it seems to have promise especially in conjunction with B2B. Plus it slows down the Goblin clock since the deck has a such a low land count. Stalling for time in order to get a Shackles or Keg online is key and using those components for a temporary lock is a good thing.

Benie Bederios
10-11-2006, 05:38 AM
Hello,

I'm playing with MD Chalice of the Void (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=48326) now for some months, but I have mixed feelings about it. Sometimes I win games solely because of Chalice of the Void, other times it is as dead as a dodo, being to slow.
I have no way of playing it turn one for 1, wich is a problem. Another problem is that I can't play it for anything else than 0 or 1. At 2 it stops my deck in his tracks blocking Counterspell (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=102), Mana Leak (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=45242), Impulse (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=26616) and Powder Keg (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=15259).
I've tried alot of different versions but can't make it as viable as the "standard" version( of Maximus.)
Is there any good acc. for this deck, so it can play more like Accelerated Blue? That version can utilize a Chalice of the Void better.

Propaganda (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=4718) isn't really good in the current enviroment. Goblins have Red Elemental Blast (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=2301) and Siege-Gang Commander (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=43552) to get around it and double Goblin Piledriver (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=40193). Powder Keg and Back to Basic (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=5711) take care of Affinity. Stompy( Faerie/Angel) only needs 1 creature to have a decent clock.

BB

Eldariel
10-11-2006, 06:26 AM
I'd really want to run Chrome Moxen in BBS. The deck runs the draw and the bombs to make up for the lost card advantage, but the one thing it doesn't have is consistent early game to fight off hordes. Plaing a number of Moxes could really help in getting things to work.

Barsoom
10-11-2006, 09:17 AM
Ok now my reflections..
About Meloku/Morphling nothing more to add. Morph simply rulez. period.
I don't play MD Back to Basics cause in my meta there are not so many Duals (cause price i think), then i cut it to Side; he is fantastic in the format anyhow.
About Force Spikes i play with it many time ago, and instead of them i prefer to add more Powder kegs (4); very often i go down to 4-6 life before stabilized with
Kegs/Shackles and for now works fine (quite).
As i write before i don't run B2B then i must run wasteland (wasteland and quicksand for me are absolutely metagame choice; they are very strong everyone then one take his choice and go..).
Also Misdirections are useful sometimes and other not; i go for them in Side for now but maybe i'll cut them..
About Impulse i'm completely agree with you. They simply take what do you want at that moment; i think also that 3 are the perfect number cause the 4° sometimes is useless.

ps: ah another thing: why this thread is not still in the Open Forum?
not to be niggler but now this deck has right, not?

Cavius The Great
10-11-2006, 10:35 AM
Quicksands were put in instead of Wastelands because it helped us kill certain aggro creatures and gave us another way of removal. Sure we could have blown up non-basic lands, but wouldnt you rather blow up creatures that are killing you?

you need to have atleast a few ways to deal with manlands. That's the main reason Wastelands were run in the first place. Back to Basics helps, but as a suggestion, I'd recommend running atleast 1 Dust Bowl.

Maximus04
10-11-2006, 07:15 PM
Manlands arent a problem if you can get the B2B online. Quicksands are more viable choice because it can kill a variety of aggro creatures that give BBS problems.

Would you rather run Wastelands and kill of NonBasic or would you rather run quicksand and kill of Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief, Werebear, Meddling Mage, and almost any aggro creature from Angel Stompy. With B2B in the Mainboard manlands do not become a problem. Though I understand different metas require different solutions.

Chalice sounds good in theory but in practice it doesnt work. The deck itself gives answers to one casting cost creatures/spells first game. It also is hard to chalice when you do not know what the deck is running. Though if you can anticipate your meta VERY well and know which decks you will see. Then yes, i can understand a MB chalice but if you are just putting them in the MB just because it seems like a good idea then dont. You need reason behind your MB logic.

SIDENOTE
If your meta doesnt run nobasics, then Chalice would be an excellent addition instead of two BTB. Just playtest and anticpate, you will know what to expect.

Doks
10-12-2006, 05:16 PM
Hello for the first time! =)

After I've lost during Germany's Dülmen with my U/r Landstill to 3 Vial Goblindecks even with that 6 BEB/Hydroblast and 2 Pyroclasm SB i searched for a deck with similar possibilities but a much stronger MU against Combo/Control.
I guess I've find it in the here discussed BBS.

My actual list looks like that:

// Lands
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
11 [B] Island (1)
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
2 [US] Morphling

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
4 [B] Counterspell
4 [UD] Powder Keg
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [SH] Mana Leak
3 [NE] Daze
3 [IN] Fact or Fiction
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
3 [GP] Repeal

A few thoughts after i read through this thread:

1. One user introduced to Chrome Mox:

From the beginning on i put it into every single version "my" weird pile evolved.
Imho BBS needs to be fast and Chrome Mox is the solution:
1st Turn Powder Keg/Leak/Cspell or Repeal targeting Lackey are just wonderful.
In addtion, think about 2nd Turn Shackles/Crucible (<- a few comments later) ;)
Furthermore, the Moxen make two cards playable:

-Daze:
Normally, returning a land in a control deck in the early game is nearly deadly :/
But Daze does things you otherwise had to use a FoW for:
Forcing through that 2nd Round Powder Keg against NQG's Counterspell for just returning an Island is nice - even an early Shackles may be protected that way as well.
On the otherhand, the ordinary functions:
Mental pressure the opponent playing around Daze und the surprise because I don't know just one of my opponents on MWS expecting that card =D
And with the Moxen returning a land does not hurt so much because next turn you can still counter with your 2 CC Countermagic.

-Thirst for Knowledge:

The Deck needs Draw, yes.
Many versions use Ophidian and FoF as "real" draw (Brainstorm -> CQ), but in my experience Ophidian was just taken out by Bolts/StoP/whatever or it did not come throug enemy's blockers in the Control/Aggro MU.
In the Combo MU Ophidian may be better - but TfK even provides draw with CQ and very important: it plunges later Moxen/Shackles/Kegs/Crucibles.


Any longer, some more general thoughts on this deck:

-Ophidian:

Yeah, nice draw - if it comes throug or you are not forced to block :/
As i pointed out above, in my experience (you may have some better for sure) it does not work as good as in the Type 1 format.
But what i hate most is, that you mostly have to tap out.
In my games i really didn't want to wait until Turn 4/5 (with Mox or without) to drop one 'cause i needed cards just right then.
And that's the advantage TfK provides - I am able to wait until eot and then i get that cards and don't have to wait three attacks.

-Accumulated Knowledge/Intuition - Drawengine:

Why is this not used so often?
I just saw it in very little decks - and don't know why.
Before i have added FoF to the deck, i played it and it was just awesome.
The problem is that it uses 5-6 Slots (depending on number auf Intuitions) and with just 3 FoFs I could just add more Counters.
If I was able to find something to cut, i would like to introduce it again.

Repeal:

- In U/r Landstill this card has proven to be worth playing it:

Our nice Powder Keg has an enemy - Pithing Needle =(
The same with our Finisher Morphling.
And "my" Wastelands with the crucible.
Or the Shackles - all very valid targets for that nasty tool.
With CC1 it often comes down too early -> We need a way to handle it in the mid-late game.
With its cantrip, it even doesn't cause disadvantage and there are even other nice targets:
Bouncing Vial before the 4th counter is added (uncounterable Ringleaders hurt very hard :/) or Werebear to have them forced their critter a second time through is just a good play.

Now, the crucible ;):

B2B is for non-basic hate.
Crucible with Wastelands too, but there is a difference:

In MU where B2B or the Wastelock are nearly gamewinning (-> Landstill/NQG) the opponent can handle the B2B basics easier than Crucible for one reason:
We have a very late coming kill so the opponent has more time to collect Countermagic and the rescuing Disenchant/Naturalize to escape that danger.
With B2B, he justs collects Lands and lets them untapped and waits for the best point to start that counterwar around that B2B.
But if you had the Crucible/Waste-Lock online, you set pressure:
Wasting the already dropped nonbasics shortens the time they have to react.
An in addition, discarding Crucible for TfK is CA =)


And one last thing:

I have seen plenty of Countercompilations even with Foil/Spell snare/Stifle/Disrupting Shoal and i guess there may be one that is not discoverd enough yet - any experiences from your side?



So far, just feel free to answer, it seems this deck can become one of my ne favorites ;)


Greetz,

Doks

Benie Bederios
10-12-2006, 07:16 PM
Hello,

It doesn't look like a completly weird pile, but I have some questionmarks.

I would play a counterbase of
4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell
3x Mana Leak

I never had the need for Daze. Sure it is nice on turn 1 and 2, but after that it's rather weak. In testing I pitched them more to Mox and Thirst for Knowledge more often.

At the drawdepartment you are missing Impulse. This card is great in the deck. It digs deep for 2 mana. I find Ophidian a great card. It's a blocker with a big ass. Control players can't keep up with it, and it protects morphling from Diabolic Edict.

Where is Chalice? You only play 4 1 CC cards and Chrome Mox. This card can come down turn 1 and wreck alot of decks. I should test it, it is really good. It stops Needles too.

For your permanent control. I find 4 Kegs to much. I'm playing 3 and I'm thinking to cut one. If you go for Crucible( what I wouldn't do) you maybe want to make space for Quicksand. It is really nice with Crucible.

I found repeal not needed. the changes are small they reslove 3 Needles.

BB

Doks
10-13-2006, 06:12 AM
Damn - you're right, I completely forgot about CotV ^^"
With that arguments I would really like to press it in.

I guess I have to rethink my pile.

The full number of Kegs is because I hate that damn Mongoose and the needle - AND its synergy with TfK.
The big advantage is, that you have oblique no dead cards - just plunge the lategame daze/second B2B/Mox in it.

But at one point you convinced me finally:

I will replace my Crucibles with B2B und Wastelands with Quicksands.

Furthermore, if I cut Daze/Repeal/Kegs then i would like to use Accu/Intu Drawengine again - is this a viable replacement?


So far,

Doks

Peter_Rotten
10-19-2006, 05:39 PM
Please continue all MUC/BBS discussion in our new cleaned up thread. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=95264#post95264)