[Deck] The Truffle Shuffle

[bigbear102]

@ the previous lists: Decrees should turn into Echoes. A late game echoes is how this deck was designed to win. Granted, that was when it played 8 MD and 3/4 SB discard spells, I still think it is the way to go. If you have witnesses main, play Therapy main, probably over the extirpates or whatever other black disruption you have instead.

I also agree with cutting Damnation down to 3 and upping the edict effects. With so much aggro/aggro control running around lately you want cheap removal so that you will live until damnation time. I think 3 Crime/Punishment is a fine number, they are very useful in lots of matchups, especially ones involving Warrens.

I really think that if this deck can spend the resources to be recurring creatures then it has probably already won the game. Genesis doesn't have a good outlet to get to the grave reliably as already mentioned, and V. Stronghold is non-colored mana that makes you skip your draw.

[TheAardvark]

Volrath's Stronghold is actually an MVP for me. One colorless mana source doesn't spell doom for you unless you get a hand you should have mulliganed away, and it has been excellent since I started playing it after GenCon. My most recent list (which is about a month old):

3x Loxodon Hierarch
2x Eternal Witness
2x Krosan Tusker
1x Gigglepede
1x Exalted Angel

4x Duress
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Castigate
3x Vindicate
2x Gaea's Blessing
1x Haunting Echoes
1x Crime/Punishment

4x Pernicious Deed

3x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Engineered Explosives

4x Windswept Heath
3x Bayou
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Savannah
3x Scrubland
1x Volrath's Stronghold
3x Forest
3x Swamp
2x Plains


Goblins is mostly a non-factor in my meta, and even then I have posted about a 60/40 % against it in tournaments and testing with this build. I did bump up to 24 lands with the inclusion of Stronghold, but that's fine. You want 8 basics minimum, although in some metas you may want to include 10ish, depending on the number of Wastelands you expect. The sideboard is very malleable, although mine consists of:

4x Leyline of the Void
4x Smother
3x Engineered Explosives
2x Krosan Grip
1x Loxodon Hierarch
1x Engineered Explosives

Pretty self-explanatory.

EDIT: The one Angel looks odd, but it is in response to an issue I had that ultimately cost me T8 at GenCon: a lack of relevant threats. It doesn't fit with the motto of "my shit can't be Plowed", but it swings games wildly, and 1 is the correct number, IMO, as drawing multiples is rarely good, and as long as it doesn't get RFG, you have Stronghold to bring it back if necessary.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. Feel free to say whatever.

[Jak]

My meta is a ton of aggro-control, so I wanted to have a ton of sweepers for counterslivers and goyfs, etc. I guess it would be pretty good to have discard in there.

4 Therapy
4 Witness
2 Gigapede
2 Haunting Echoes
4 Deed
2 Crime/Punishment
3 Damnation
3 Top
3 Tusker
4 StP
2 Edicts
3 Vinicate
25 Lands (with 1 VS maybe)

1 Card over.

[Nihil Credo]

4 Therapy
4 Witness
2 Gigapede
2 Haunting Echoes
4 Deed
2 Crime/Punishment
3 Damnation
3 Top
3 Tusker
4 StP
2 Edicts
3 Vinicate
25 Lands (with 1 VS maybe)

1 Card over.

IMO:

-1 Witness
-1 Vindicate
+3 Duress

[Lego]

IMO:

-1 Witness
-1 Vindicate
+3 Duress

You're right... going to 62 cards does sound like the right plan /Sarcasm.

@Jak: 4 Deed, 2 C/P, and 3 Damnation seems a bit much, especially with 3 Vindicate, 2 Edict, 4 StP... I'd drop some of that and replace it with more disruption a la Duress and Hymn to Tourach. Your combo match is going to be hard. Witness/Therapy helps there, but Duress/Hymn will help even more.

Has maindeck Hierarch completely fallen out of favor? I loved him as a two-of, and with VS he's bombs.

[throst54]

@Lego: I'd love to play with him maindeck, Im just not sure where he'd fit in atm. Tho he comes in from the SB after game one on most matchups.

@Jak: I'd try finding room for that 4th Vindicate, mid to late game you're going to want to be getting rid of 'goyf with them over StP.
I've never really found the need for so many mass removal spells, maybe you can pull from there.

[Nihil Credo]

You're right... going to 62 cards does sound like the right plan /Sarcasm.
My bad - I thought "1 card over" meant "1 free slot [left]-over", not "1 card over 60". Didn't bother to count.

I'd still find room for some Duresses (Hymn is secondary), cutting 1 Witness and the rest from the removal array.

[Lego]

Speaking of Goyf, why is he not good here? He's great against Goblins, and he speeds up your clock quite a bit. You'll always have Land, Sorcery in your graveyard, and can pretty easily get Creature and Instant, then late game you can hit Enchantment as well. Sure, he doesn't recur, but that's what VS is for, no? He seems good...

[throst54]

The biggest reason would be that Im not willing to shell out for them.
I dont want to get sucked into 'Goyf wars when I can just wipe the board and let the Pede do his thing.

[TheAardvark]

I'd drop some of that and replace it with more disruption a la Duress and Hymn to Tourach. Your combo match is going to be hard. Witness/Therapy helps there, but Duress/Hymn will help even more.

Has maindeck Hierarch completely fallen out of favor? I loved him as a two-of, and with VS he's bombs.

Castigate is really, really good. I play it in the Hymn slot, and it has worked wonders for me ever since GenCon.

If you look at my build, I still play 3 Hierarch maindeck, because there are very few matchups where I would not want to see him.

EDIT: Regarding Tarmogoyf, I feel that whatever you cut for him would be better against most decks. In addition, he's not much of a combo with Deed. He's good in several matchups, but maybe relegate him to the SB for those matchups...?

[Jak]

I think it would be pretty good to sort this all out by listing the cards that need to be in the deck and then the remaining slots can go to whatever.

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress

I have been wanting to put these in and hadn't because I have not tested this deck at all against combo, so I am going with everybody else on this one.

4 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Edicts (at least)
2 Damnation
1 Crime/Punishment
3 Vindicate

I really want a lot of removal with my meta being dominated by aggro control. But I think the deck should have this at least to crush Thresh and aggro.

3 Top
3 Tusker
2 Witness

Top and Tusker have been amazing in my testing so I think keeping them at the same number is right. Witness can be dropped down but is really good with Therapy.

1 Gigapede
1 Haunting Echoes

You should probably run more than one of each, but if you run different win conditions then cutting back to one of one of these is okay.

24 Lands with at least 7 shuffle effects

Shuffle effects are amazing with Top and 24 lands are the minimum I would run.

So that leaves me with 2 cards left over. That is not good when I need to add in 2 more win conditions and other random stuff.

[throst54]

The bare bones of this deck are a bit slimmer than your deck.


4 deed
4 vindicate
4 StP
3 Top

3-5 Shuffle Effects Krosan Tusker/Sakura-Tribe Elder/Eternal Dragon

4-7 Finishers Loxodon Hierarch/Exalted Angel/Gigapede
3-7 Utility Cards Eternal Witness/Glittering Wish/Living Wish/V. Stronghold

3-9 Meta Slots
Here you're to play some combination of more removal (targeted and/or mass) and discard.

22-25 Lands (6-8 Fetches)

I have an entire card box consisting of all my Truffle Shuffle-ish cards, so I can change my deck up pretty quick depending on what the metagame is looking like. The deck is pretty flexible and can be built to work in most metagames.

I dislike going with heavy removal and no discard as it really screws you on your combo matchup.

Not that the deck is that popular, but Truffle Shuffle has no maindeck answer (unless you have a deed on on the board) to a Scepter w/ a chant on it.

[darkalucard]

I have been testing variations of this deck for months now and I have been struggling in some areas.

For those experienced with this deck lets open a conversation on how we all address or can solve this decks weaknesses.

Bad Match Ups:

Survival:
They have card advantage that you cant stop. There is no way to overcome it. If you can keep them off Survival you can win by being the better deck. But it is hard to keep them off it. My plan is concede game 1 as soon as I see a Survival of the Fittest. For G2+G3 side in the hate. I'm currently testing Extirpate.

Landstill:
Between their Standstills and Fact or Fictions they have way too much card advantage for you to handle. Also if they go the land destruction route you lose that way too. What type of hate is good against this deck? What are the key cards in this match up? I'm testing extirpating their win conditions.

Goblins:
They can recover from wrath effects over and over again. You need a way to permanently stop them. Playing Glittering Wish for Dueling Grounds and siding in 4 Engineered Plagues helps... BUT Goblins is very consistent deck and you are not. They attack your mana base with wastes and ports and you may never even see three mana. Also Wort and Seige Gang are very hard to deal with if you run out of Swords. You can easily lose because of this. I am currently thinking about playing cards like Sakura Tribe Elder to block and get more land to ensure that you are able to play those devastating spells in your hand. Cards like that will also add to the decks consistency and you will mulligan less.

I don't really have any other bad matchups that become a huge problem.

What are other decks that everyone is having trouble with?

How do you cope with the above match ups?

ALSO

For those still playing the deck please post your current decklists.

[Jak]

I have been having trouble finalizing my list. I am trying out a few different variations and come up with a solid 57. It is just those last few slots I am trying to decide.

4 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All

2 Gigapede
2 Haunting Echoes

3 Krosan Tusker
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Eternal Witness

2 Extirpate

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Diabolic Edict
1 Chainer's Edict
4 Vindicate
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Damnation

SB
4 Orim's Chant
4 Duress
2 Extirpate
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Phyrexian Negator

I really like Extirpate MD as a 2-of at least. I think it will help a lot of MUs that you named. Extirpate Landstills win-cons. Remove Ringleaders from the game so they can't fill their hand. Extirpate random survival crap. I just want some form of disrution main to free up SB slots. I play a shit ton of removal because it is awesome. When you can play 20 removal spells, with most of them uncounterable, hoses creature based decks.

This is one of my variations because I have some discard heavy versions, but this has been the best one in my testing against a few decks.

[darkalucard]

1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All

Very Nice, how is it in testing? What match ups does it improve?


2 Haunting Echoes

Is echoes really needed? It seems like most decks you would just win by the time you could play it anyways. Are there any matchups where this is key to winning? Or do you think you might be able to win anyways at the point were you could play it. It seems Extirpate is allot better because it can hit early to stop combo. BTW I really like the 2 Extirpate MD and 2 SB NICE. :smile:


SB
4 Orim's Chant
4 Duress
2 Extirpate
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Phyrexian Negator

What is your sideboard strategy?

I see you have 5 beaters SB why not just play these MD or make more SB room like Engineered Plagues against Goblins etc.

Whats you combo MU? Do you just concede game 1?

ALSO

Jak, what does your metagame look like?

[Jak]

My meta is basically a shit ton of aggro-control like Counterslivers and Thresh. Then, there is a bunch of random, like a couple burn and so forth. Echoes is really good. It really depends if I want to use it as a win condition when I am in control of the game or use it turn 5 to cripple the opponent so I can get the upper hand. It is good both ways because it wins games and your opponent will be drawing basics for a while.

My SB is mainly for combo. I feel comfortable with aggro-control, control and aggro, so I want to focus on that. I run limited disruption as you can see and it is just to get the combo player hurt a little. Then, cast goyf and win. Now, I haven't tested it here, but it has done well for me in the past when I played 12 pieces of disruption and the man plan in Rabid Wombat. And yes, I probably will concede game 1 unless he goes for EtW or something :tongue: .

Yeah, I have liked MD Extirpate a lot. It is just never dead.

[darkalucard]

I think I've fixed my Landstill and Goblins Match-Ups but I'm still struggling with Survival...

Is there anyone experienced with this deck that has tested/played against Survival?

How do you beat it?
What is your strategies?
I'm allot of trouble with this Match-Up.

Help is well appreciated.

[Brehn]

Here is a list I've been testing some time ago, it's quite a different approach:

4 Bayou
3 Scrubland
3 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Plains
0 Volrath's Stronghold - should be changed

3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Glittering Wish
3 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Loxodon Hierarch
2 Gigapede
1 Haunting Echoes
1 Krosan Tusker
2 Eternal Witness
====
1 Crime // Punishment
1 Putrefy
1 Dueling Grounds
1 Vindicate
1 Grave-Shell Scarab
2 Loxodon Hierarch
2 Duress
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip

- Veteran Explorer + Cabal Therapy: This looks wonderful and horrible at the same time. T1 Explorer, T2 Therapy, Flashback Therapy, Deed _is_ devastating. Sure you help your opponent, but hey, who is the one playing a threat curve that starts at three? I often found this package helpful, even vs mono-colored decks and it becomes way stronger in a meta that is packed with Threshold and Combo.
Only thing to remember though: don't use Explorer as a "Lackey answer" on the draw unless you have Deed.

- Glittering Wish toolbox, Loxodon Hierarch MD: Basically stuff to beat aggro, but this could be replaced. Sometimes I find the aggro matchup difficult, Damnations might work, although they're narrow.

Basically I'd say it's a list with an improved with improved combo and control-matchups that's including janky cards to get a chance vs aggro. If there's no aggro in the meta, this should be a good list to start with.

One question though, especially to Jak: Edicts? Seriously? Ok, Mongoose can be a bitch, but... Edicts?

[Jak]

No love for Edicts? I personally love them. Now, I am not a big fan of Chainers being a Sorcery, so it will probably be cut and I will just play the full set of Diabolic. They are amazing right now. A lot of decks are still running creatures, but fewer with the raise in size that Tarmogoyf adds. Anyways, here is a good list of why I run it.

Slivers
Man-Lands
Goose
Tarmogoyf
Goblins

It is good against all of these cards/decks, so I run it. It is also the next best removal the colors offer.

@ your list

I love Veteran Explorers with Therapy. That is awesome synergy. I can't really comment on the rest of the deck, since our decks are really different, but how is your combo MU? Goblins? Do you have to rely heavily on Wish to get Dueling Grounds?

[throst54]

I like the list, though I'm skeptical about the explorer, as hes kinda useless till you pop a deed if you dont see Therapy early on.

And yes on the edicts, it makes the thresh matchup a ton easier when you face mongoose and mystic enforcer. I like to generally run a split on Diabolic and Chainer's.

[TheAardvark]

And yes on the edicts, it makes the thresh matchup a ton easier when you face mongoose and mystic enforcer. I like to generally run a split on Diabolic and Chainer's.

Mongoose, perhaps, but I have never had any real problems in dealing with Enforcers without Edicts. White splash Threshold is one of Truffle's best matchups anyway.

Veteran Explorer is nifty, but it seems less than optimal without Therapy and such, as has been mentioned already.

[Jak]

Eternal Witness- I have been contemplating cutting it. I want room in my board for some other goods. The recursion is nice, but a lot of the time it seems win more. I tried 4 Duress MD and like playing it turn 1 to get some information and take a key spell. I also cut the Chainers for another Extirpate. Here is my board with 4 duress and 3 extirpate main.

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Phyrexian Negator
4 Orim's Chant
1 Extirpate
4 Abeyance/Krosan Grip/CoP: Red/EE/2 more Gators(some combination)

[Brehn]

Sure Explorer is no threat on his own, but think about it: Vs the aggro player he's an early game chumpblocker that allows turn 2 Vindicates, Deeds and Hierarchs and turn 3 Gigapedes. I've seen aggro players sword him just because of that. Also, he's a shuffle effect lategame and a topdecked (or more likely S.D.Top-decked) Explorer buys you a round by chumping Goyf and digging three cards deeper for that piece of removal. Anyway, I'm looking for other cards with synergy with Explorer.

Jak: My combo matchup is somewhat draw-dependant. Postboard I have access to 10 pieces of disruption (or more if you put more Duress in the SB) and the combo player can be sure he won't win with Empty the Warrens. Sometimes this is enough, sometimes not.
Vs Goblins: The matchup is not unwinnable. I win if I get an early Deed or an early Dueling Grounds or enough removal, the problem I have here is to get the right things consistently. I don't have too much experience with other aggro decks (I played this list before people started to realize Goyf Sligh can win games).

[darkalucard]

@Brehn

I love your deck list. I run a similar style I have played the Veteran/Cabal Therapy in my deck for a long time. I eventually took him out because I wasn't sure I needed him, and he is a bad top deck. But the way my deck has evolved I think he IS needed. Veteran Explorer makes the deck more consistent, allot of this decks tough match ups are because it is vulnerable to land destruction effects because the deck is very mana hungry. It is one of the most mana hungry decks in the format. That is why it never matters that they get the land too because your the one that takes advantage of it. I have found that I never can have enough land in play while most decks can run on practically no land they don't care that they have more because they didn't need much to begin with.

And against Goblins I think he is KEY. My deck always beat Goblins but I discovered that I cannot do it consistently. Goblins is a more consistent deck while we are not. Veteran Explorer will ensure that we always get the land we need to play the spells that crush Goblins. Instead of losing to Port and Wasteland keeping us off of Dueling Grounds or Engineered Plague mana.

@Jak


Slivers
Man-Lands
Goose
Tarmogoyf
Goblins

Edict is good against these? I think Smother is better minus the Goose. But come on, this deck has an auto-win against Slivers and Threshold anyways who cares if it's good against them what about your bad match-ups? And Goblins? I would think it sucks wouldn't you rather want to kill the Pile Driver attacking you then playing edict and they sac the Mogg Fanatic? And how does your deck beat Goblins? Don't they come back from your Wrath effects with Goblin Ringleader?

BTW I would rather play Brehn's deck against Goblins than your's Jak


I like the list, though I'm skeptical about the explorer, as hes kinda useless till you pop a deed if you dont see Therapy early on.

Usually your on the defense and being on the defense your usually being attacked... in which case you block. And then you get his effect. And if there not attacking? Good for you, your surviving into the late game were you win.


Eternal Witness- I have been contemplating cutting it. I want room in my board for some other goods. The recursion is nice, but a lot of the time it seems win more. I tried 4 Duress MD and like playing it turn 1 to get some information and take a key spell. I also cut the Chainer's for another Extirpate. Here is my board with 4 duress and 3 extirpate main.

You cannot cut this. This decks 3c slot is overflowed and I understand the frustration. I don't think you should be running 4, maybe if you deck was a different style or it ran Cabal Therapy. But it doesn't. 4 is overkill I would run three which I have for I while but while I think the card is necessary. I think you should try running 2. That way you never get flooded with them, I've had problems were I had 3 in my hand and no double green. Run 2, you'll like it. Maybe 2 sideboard also, BTW I like the Tarmogoyf's, there nice main deck too BTW.


(I played this list before people started to realize Goyf Sligh can win games).

Try main decking 2-3 Loxodon's I like them better than removal spells. You cast them and it completely changes the game for your opponent your life totals farther from zero and they have to go thew a 4/4 now. And against Goyf Sligh, when you have 3 MD and 1 SB with your 3 Glittering Wish's. You cannot lose. It's insane. I've completely owned Goyf Sligh multiple times it has no chance, it's a bye. Even with there Price of Progress and Blood Moon... you just play around them.

BTW

Guy's... what about my Survival match-up?

It's really bad...

I need your tech.

:cry:

[Brehn]

Survival can be hard. If you see a lot of it, run 4 Krosan Grips in the sideboard. Tormod's Crypt may help a bit, but this is strongly dependant on the variant they're playing.

[Jak]

@Jak



Edict is good against these? I think Smother is better minus the Goose. But come on, this deck has an auto-win against Slivers and Threshold anyways who cares if it's good against them what about your bad match-ups? And Goblins? I would think it sucks wouldn't you rather want to kill the Pile Driver attacking you then playing edict and they sac the Mogg Fanatic? And how does your deck beat Goblins? Don't they come back from your Wrath effects with Goblin Ringleader?

BTW I would rather play Brehn's deck against Goblins than your's Jak

Smother can not kill untargetable Slivers. Edict is so much better than smother right now in my meta. Against goblins, they try to wait and kill in one swing, going Warchief-pile-pile. Edict is good enought to stop this. Smother works to, but I have enough targeted removal. I play 2-3 Extirpate MD and Ringleader is the first target.

I really don't care what you would rather play because I know you haven't tested my deck or his. I just posted a list that from testing, has been strong.

[throst54]

this deck has an auto-win against Slivers and Threshold anyways

Against UGb thresh its a lot different than other thresh decks.
If they run the needle+stifle+waste+expirtate it can be a very hard matchup, which a lot of sliver decks also do.

The explorer is going to make your solidarity matchup incredibly horrible, Im going to playtest him, but i think that Sakura-Tribe Elder would probably be better.

[Brehn]

I still have to see Sliver lists with Wastelands and Extirpates. I also still have to think about a very good reason to let Explorer trigger against Solidarity.

@Sakura Tribe-Elder: This is the alternative to Explorer. Most probably you'll have to replace the mainboard Cabal Therapies with Duresses to make your disruption suite work properly, but this also means you have less chances to hit something relevant vs aggro.

[darkalucard]

I really don't care what you would rather play because I know you haven't tested my deck or his. I just posted a list that from testing, has been strong.

I've tested many versions of this deck I've tested similar to yours but not exactly because I haven't tried the no discard, lots of removal plan. I guess it's good in your meta. Which it seems like you play against allot of aggro-control. So you do pretty well then? :tongue: I would love to crush Threshold all day long... And yes I've tested Brehn's list BTW.


The explorer is going to make your solidarity matchup incredibly horrible, Im going to playtest him, but i think that Sakura-Tribe Elder would probably be better.

It makes your Therapy's better... it attacks? You may be right, I don't know. But I thought Solidarity was dead? Do you see it played? I just bet if I showed up at a 50 person tournament not more than 2 people might be playing it. I'm just guessing though.


Survival can be hard. If you see a lot of it, run 4 Krosan Grips in the sideboard. Tormod's Crypt may help a bit, but this is strongly dependant on the variant they're playing.

It is hard. Most popular version I've been facing is GBR running the discard package and Burning Wish. Also main decking 2 Magus of the Moons.

Krosan Grips stop Survival, but they usually get it back but even if it works out it seems I always run into more Gribs while they topdeck threats. I dunno it just seems having good top decks against them is important. I dunno though. Allot of times they play around Crypt. It's just if I dont side enough hate I lose to the Card advantage, and if I side too much I lose to drawing it all.... lose lose situation... :cry:

[Holo_rip]

Hello guys,

so, i've been toying with a B/G/W control deck by myself. I'm trying to tuneit to beat easily aggro/control and control. At the moment my aggro/control matchup is ok, but i have trouble with control.

First, my list :
3 bayou
3 scrubland
2 savannah
3 windswept heath
3 bloodstained mire
2 volrath's stronghold
3 swamp
2 forest
1 plains

4 sakura-tribe elder
3 shriekmaw
3 loxodon hierarch
3 mystic enforcer

3 sensei's divination top
3 pernicious deed
3 crime/punishment
4 vindicate
4 sword to plowshares
4 hymn to tourach
4 thoughtseize

SB :
4 engineered plague
4 duress
4 leyline of the void
3 chalice of the void

i know, this is a lot of removal, but aggro/control rules in my meta.
i'm not sure about the creature base, especially about the sakura-tribe, but i already got trouble beating control a la landstill without giving them free land drop.
i really love stronghold cause i recurse threat and removal in the form of shriekmaw.
any comment / thought ?

[Daeniel]

Your list is ok, though I would add some finishers that could be recurred without the means of a stronghold in play.
I won a small tournament (19 players) a couple of weeks ago, and I must say that against a lot of deck Gigapede really shines; the only real answer that can eliminate him is Extirpate once it hits the yard, but as you can figure this is not something that every deck can do.

I'd chosen to run a split of 2 Vindicate/2 Putrefy, and in 3 occasion it "saved" me from Extirpate and Meddling Mage. Ok, it's not a radical change, but...

And a Haunting Echoes could also be useful as an alternative finisher; anyway, here's the list that I've used:

// Lands
4 Scrubland
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Polluted Delta
3 Windswept Heath
3 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Forest
// Creatures
3 Wall of Blossoms
1 Grave-Shell Scarab
2 Gigapede
1 Eternal Dragon
2 Eternal Witness
2 Loxodon Hierarch
// Spells
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Haunting Echoes
2 Putrefy
2 Vindicate
1 Crime // Punishment
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Damnation
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress

I liked playing this deck, against 70% of the filed here is amazing :smile:
Only one thing; there is some hope to beat a Landstill ever? The only game that I lost badly was one against a very solid build of UWR Landstill, and.. well.. I was trying to figure out some answer. Proposition? :cry:

[CB4SN13]

Hey, I'm new to the forum, but has been checking things out for a while now because something about legacy just really appeal to me. Just wanted to say I absolutely love playing this deck. I love the versatility of cards like Pernicious Deed and Vindicate, not the mention the unkillable Gigapede.

That said, I just have a couple questions. Sorry in advance if these are discussed already. There were just too many pages of posts for me to read the whole thing.

1. Why is Duress played over Thoughtseize?
Though you lose two life, Thoughtseize actually has a use when playing Goblins. The two life seems irrelevant when you play against control and combo, and I think it helps out on the Goblin MU. Against other forms of aggro, the amount of creature removal this deck has (not to mention the Hierarchs), 2 life doesn't seem like a big deal, especially if when thoughtseize can count as creature removal by getting rid of that Tarmogoyf/Troll Ascetic/Mongoose before it hits the board.

2. Should Haunting Echoes be used as a finisher?
It seems to be really slow, and the deck already has major problems finishing the match on time. Decking an opponent doesn't seem like a good strategy, and if Echoes is used to put them out of the game, you still need to find a creature to finish the opponent off.

3. Hymn to Tourach vs. Castigate?
I find that Hymn's randomness can be a problem sometimes. Even though it takes two cards, sometimes, it gets the wrong two cards. Also, Castigate removes the card from the game, which is very useful. Should Hymn be used in a aggro intensive meta, while Castigate be used in other metas? (are their usage meta dependent?)

[Jak]

1. Why is Duress played over Thoughtseize?
Though you lose two life, Thoughtseize actually has a use when playing Goblins. The two life seems irrelevant when you play against control and combo, and I think it helps out on the Goblin MU. Against other forms of aggro, the amount of creature removal this deck has (not to mention the Hierarchs), 2 life doesn't seem like a big deal, especially if when thoughtseize can count as creature removal by getting rid of that Tarmogoyf/Troll Ascetic/Mongoose before it hits the board.

2. Should Haunting Echoes be used as a finisher?
It seems to be really slow, and the deck already has major problems finishing the match on time. Decking an opponent doesn't seem like a good strategy, and if Echoes is used to put them out of the game, you still need to find a creature to finish the opponent off.

3. Hymn to Tourach vs. Castigate?
I find that Hymn's randomness can be a problem sometimes. Even though it takes two cards, sometimes, it gets the wrong two cards. Also, Castigate removes the card from the game, which is very useful. Should Hymn be used in a aggro intensive meta, while Castigate be used in other metas? (are their usage meta dependent?)

1) Thoughtseize > Duress

2) Yes, it should be a win con. It is much faster than Gigapede and it can be used early to just take out anything that scares you.

3) Hymn. It is Card Advantage and it just swings games in your favor.

[Team-Hero]

Haunting Echoes WINS games. It might not totally wreck the opponent's deck, but if you play it correctly it helps you win the game much easier. What I do is rip almost every useful spell my opponent has from his library and keep all the non-basic lands and useless spells in his library. Therefor, when my opponent draws a card, chances are it's not the card he needed (ie: land, duress, thoughtseize, dark ritual, etc.)

[Joon]

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [B] Bayou
2 [B] Savannah
2 [B] Scrubland
2 [IN] Forest (1)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [MI] Swamp (2)
2 [MI] Plains (1)
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures
2 [ON] Gigapede
4 [FD] Eternal Witness
3 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [AP] Vindicate
2 [PLC] Damnation
4 [TE] Diabolic Edict
3 [PLC] Extirpate
3 [FUT] Glittering Wish
2 [DIS] Crime/Punishment

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 [AP] Vindicate
SB: 1 [DIS] Crime/Punishment
SB: 4 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
SB: 4 [US] Duress
SB: 1 [GP] Castigate


This is my actual list. I'm not sold at the manabase, but with the rest of the deck I'm pretty satisfied. Glittering Wish adds flexibility, and Crime/Punishment is pretty neat, too. I accept the autoloss against Combo G1, and Postboard I try to fight him with Playset Chant & Duress, but I guess this deck's worst Matchup will always stay Combo.dec.
Extirpate is > Echoes imo, because Extirpate is more nimble, has split second and costs only one mana, so it solves the problem of cards that are nasty to get rid off now. Against many decks it is just the same if you extirpate one crucial thing (Counterbalance/Goyf/etc.) as if you play Echoes Turn 13 or so.

[diffy]

Extirpate is > Echoes imo, because Extirpate is more nimble, has split second and costs only one mana, so it solves the problem of cards that are nasty to get rid off now. Against many decks it is just the same if you extirpate one crucial thing (Counterbalance/Goyf/etc.) as if you play Echoes Turn 13 or so.

The thing is that if Haunting Echoes resolves, you basically win the game after a short periode of time. You must see it as finisher.
If Extirpate resolves, you now don't have to deal with the remaining 3- copies of a certain threat your opponent has. This certainly isn't a bad effect but you have to keep in mind that almost all decks have multiple ways to victory (therefore not that affected by Extirpate) and that those who are really hurt by it are good matchups (aggro-control hates to loose its Goyfs).
Another problem I have with Extirpate mainboard is that it is Card Disadvantage (CDA) nearly all the time. Especially this deck without a 'hard' way to create Card Advantage (CA) won't be able to afford the loss of a card in hand for a future effect. This leads me to my final issue with Extirpate: it doesn't affect the board state now making it quite mediocre for its effect - its neither a strong enough effect for a finisher nor versatile enough for a random goodness slot.
Long story short: don't play them main - they're good for the board though (Life from the Loam, Genesis, Aggro Control, Control mirror etc.).

On another note, Shriekmaw should be an auto-include as at least a 2off in this deck in my opinion: a wincondition that isn't dead early on should be what this deck was looking for. Note also the great synergy with Volrath's Stronghold.

On another note, wouldn't a X/1 split of Engineered Explosives/CrimePunishment be more optimal than playing X+1 Crime Punishments? I see how C/P doubles as a wincondition, but 5 mana is quite a lot and the wincondition part relies heaviliy on your opponent. Also, most of the time you'll be casting it as removal anyways - where Engineered Explosives has the great advantage of being castable over two turns which makes the Explosives castable earlier and which will make you walk into Daze or other tempo cards (land destruction, Fire/Ice on your lands etc.) less often. Another strong point of Engineered Explosives is that you can cast it proactively so that you can use your mana for other stuff until you need the Explosives - and then you'll only have to pay 2 instead of 2+X. Also, Engineered Explosives are a little easier on the colors if you happen to get screwed a little.

Also, if you're going to play Diabolic Edict, why not split it X/1 with Chainer's Edict (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/57.html): it's the same effect most of the time because you have very little to do in your opponents turn and in the lategame the flashback comes in handy.

Lastly, I urge everyone to split their 'untargetable and reccurable' winconditions: in matchups like the control mirror it just sucks to loose all your good winconditions to a single Extirpate on Gigapede.

Edit: A piece of tech for the combo matchup, especially if you're playing Glittering Wish: Gaddock Teeg (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/248.html) needs to be killed/bounced by the combo-player prior to him wining most of the time which will buy you some precious time in which you can go beatdown (where Teeg's 2/2-body helps too) and find your other hate.

[Joon]

Wow, that's a large answer. Quotathon.


The thing is that if Haunting Echoes resolves, you basically win the game after a short periode of time. You must see it as finisher.
If Extirpate resolves, you now don't have to deal with the remaining 3- copies of a certain threat your opponent has.

Hm, I think all your points are valid so I'll move the Extirpates to the Side. The only question is now, what cards to cut in the Sideboard. Duress maybe?
And do you have any ideas, how to use the new three slots except for 1-2 Haunting Echoes?



On another note, Shriekmaw should be an auto-include as at least a 2off in this deck in my opinion: a wincondition that isn't dead early on should be what this deck was looking for. Note also the great synergy with Volrath's Stronghold.

Nice idea. Shriekmaw will be tested.



On another note, wouldn't a X/1 split of Engineered Explosives/CrimePunishment be more optimal than playing X+1 Crime Punishments?

Maybe. Got to test that. Both handle Tokens Turn 2, but C/P is a lot more colored mana intensive and EE is pretty good as you wrote.



Also, if you're going to play Diabolic Edict, why not split it X/1 with Chainer's Edict (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/57.html): it's the same effect most of the time because you have very little to do in your opponents turn and in the lategame the flashback comes in handy.

I guess a 3/2 Split will be tested by myself, as the Flashback can become quite nice.



Lastly, I urge everyone to split their 'untargetable and reccurable' winconditions: in matchups like the control mirror it just sucks to loose all your good winconditions to a single Extirpate on Gigapede.

Then a split of 1/1 'pede and Graveshell-Scarab will be tested. I never thought about that.



Edit: A piece of tech for the combo matchup, especially if you're playing Glittering Wish: Gaddock Teeg (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/248.html) needs to be killed/bounced by the combo-player prior to him wining most of the time which will buy you some precious time in which you can go beatdown (where Teeg's 2/2-body helps too) and find your other hate.

Yeah, seems a pretty good idea.

Here's my new list:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [B] Bayou
2 [B] Savannah
2 [B] Scrubland
2 [IN] Forest (1)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [MI] Swamp (2)
2 [MI] Plains (1)
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures
1 [ON] Gigapede
4 [FD] Eternal Witness
3 [SC] Eternal Dragon
1 [RAV] Grave-Shell Scarab
4 [LRW] Shriekmaw

// Spells
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [AP] Vindicate
2 [PLC] Damnation
2 [TE] Diabolic Edict
3 [FUT] Glittering Wish
2 [DIS] Crime/Punishment
1 [OD] Haunting Echoes
1 [TO] Chainer's Edict

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 [AP] Vindicate
SB: 1 [DIS] Crime/Punishment
SB: 4 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip

Unfortunately 61 cards, but I really do not know what to cut :frown:
There are only 3 Edicts, only 1 Echoes...
The only thing that could get cut are the Damnations. Or not? I mean, I have 6 Deeds, 6 Vindicate, Swords, Maw, Edicts and C/P. Seems a bit like overkill.

[Yawgmoth]

Has anyone else tried Murmuring Bosk as a one-of? Being able to fetch it the turn you don't need the extra mana has been amazing for me.

Unfortunately I don't own Damnations and I am forced to play with Wraith. Having a need for double colors of everything, Murmuring Bosk has helped a lot in getting to all three quickly.

Other neglected lands to look at for this deck include:
Nantuko Monastery (I run 2)
Horizon Canopy (currently 0)

[Team-Hero]

Instead of 4 Shriekmaw, why not run 3 instead and 1 Masked Admirers? Your running enough creatures to take advantage of the recurring state of the Admirers.

[diffy]

Instead of 4 Shriekmaw, why not run 3 instead and 1 Masked Admirers? Your running enough creatures to take advantage of the recurring state of the Admirers.

I don't think that this is a good idea: Masked Admirers is a weak wincondition (only 3 power) that, unlike Gigapede or Grave-Shell Scarab, doesn't evade Swords to Plowshares and that does nothing but beat (unlike other options like Loxodon Hierarch or Shriekmaw). I don't think that you have quite enough creatures to make the 'draw a card' worth it and even then the Admirers are just a bad/clunky/manaintensive drawengine.
In conclusion: you either want resistant and quick winconditions or guys that have an effect to change the board state now.


Neglected lands to look at for this deck include:
Nantuko Monastery (http://magiccards.info/ju/en/142.html)
Horizon Canopy (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/177.html)
Murmuring Bosk (http://magiccards.info/mt/en/147.html)

I've tried Horizon Canopy in the past to have something for those lategame manafloods, but the 'draw a card' effect was just not strong enough to counterbalance the life loss that accumulates quite a lot if you have it early. Also, you already have Sensei's Divining Top for lategame card quality so that even in the lategame, I think you would rather have a fetchie than an Horizon Canopy.

Murmuring Bosk could be quite cool as a 1off - you'd need to implement more green fetchies though which is not the direction to go in my opinion: you really want to fetch a basic Swamp early to have removal/Deed mana under Wastelands or Blood Moon.

Nantuko Monastery is something I didn't think of up to now - mainly because I don't like it in 4c Landstill - but it could be quite good as a 1off: you don't want to draw it in the early-game ever but in the mid-lategame this could be amazing as a blocker/finisher and so I'd say that a singleton is enough as this deck does remain quite color intensive.



Here's my new list: unfortunately 61 cards, but I really do not know what to cut.

First of all, I'd cut down on a Shriekmaw. For sure he's amazing once you’ve reached 5 mana, but he's quite mediocre removal in the early game especially since he can't kill Dark Confidant (huge problem). For sure you have other removal to take care of creatures he can't hit but then again he's only a Terror in the early game - not that impressive. I'd run 3 to have him in the mid-late game though.

-1 Shriekmaw

Also, as mentioned in my last post (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=216657&postcount=286), I'd split the Crime/Punishments with Engineered Explosives.

-1 Crime/Punishment
+1 Engineered Explosives

Next, I'd try to work a Nantuko Monastery into your manabase. As mentioned above it is quite a potent inclusion for the mid- to late-game. I don't quite know what to cut though: I don't have the habit to play Truffle Shuffle anymore so that I don't know how the manabase could be changed.

-1 Land
+1 Nantuko Monastery

Next up, I'd move that sideboard Pernicious Deed to the main: you always want to draw into as many Deeds as possible and you won't ever quite need to Wish for a Pernicious Deed: you can already play Crime/Punishment for a sweeper and for any other problems you have Vindicate.

+1 Pernicious Deed

I also don't know why people don't play Krosan Tusker (http://magiccards.info/on/en/272.html) anymore. He was awesome whenever I played him as he fixes your mana to any color (unlike Eternal Dragon) and even draws a card. Maybe he became outdated while I was away from Truffle Shuffle, if so please let me know, but I would be surprised to hear this.
Anyways, I'd consider playing him over Eternal Dragon but to keep a singleton Dragon in: he comes in quite handy in the lategame because he recurs himself.

-2 Eternal Dragon
+2 Krosan Tusker

Now, let's have a look at the wishboard. I'd always try to keep the wishboard as small as possible to not hamper your boarding strategies too much - just play the essentials and nothing else. For instance, I find that discard like Castigate (http://magiccards.info/gp/en/106.html) or Gerrard's Verdict (http://magiccards.info/ap/en/102.html) to be superfluous because against combo you could just as well with for a Gaddock Teeg (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/248.html) and against control you'd rather wish for another threat like Loxodon Hierarch or
even for Teeg again (he shuts down their removal [Engineered Explosives, Wrath of God, Humility etc.] and you don't really need yours because they only have very little creatures and those are handled fine by Deed and Vindicate]).
This is how I'd build the sideboard:

1 Vindicate (http://magiccards.info/ap/en/126.html)
1 Crime/Punishment (http://magiccards.info/di/en/150.html)
1 Loxodon Hierarch (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/214.html)
1 Dueling Grounds (http://magiccards.info/in/en/245.html)
3 Gaddock Teeg (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/248.html)
8 free slots (anti-combo?)

The singleton Dueling Grounds is a little piece of tech for matchups like Ichorid or Goblins - I don't know if it's necessary but it was always useful when I played it.
The 8 free slots can be anything really, but I don't feel that you need additional Krosan Grips: you already hate Artifacts and Enchantments quite well with Pernicious Deed, Crime/Punishment, Engineered Explosives and Vindicate. If you're going to stuff those slots with combo hate, I'd at least include another permanent 'speed bump' against combo, something like Glowrider (http://magiccards.info/le/en/15.html) will be more useful than a purely reactive card because it has a built in clock which is the most important thing against combo.

Updated List:



/// Maindeck (61 cards)

// Lands (24)
1 Nantuko Monastery
1 Volrath's Stronghold
22 Others

// Mana Stability (3)
1 Eternal Dragon
2 Krosan Tusker

// Winconditons (3)
1 Gigapede
1 Grave-Shell Scarab
1 Haunting Echoes

// Removal (21)
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Chainer's Edict
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Shriekmaw
3 Vindicate
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Damnation
1 Crime/Punishment
1 Engineered Explosives

// Utility (10)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Glittering Wish
4 Eternal Witness

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
1 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Vindicate
1 Crime/Punishment
1 Dueling Grounds
3 Gaddock Teeg
8 Open Slots


Now that list is 61 cards and has an amazing amount of removal. To come down to 60 cards, I'd first of all cut a Damnation: you already have a lot of sweepers so that this is the best cut in my opinion.

-1 Damnation

For your further testing, you could have an eye on whether you ever felt to have too much removal. If you happen to answer this question with 'yes' most of the time, I think that would be the best move to cut some removal (Damnation and Diabolic Edict being the first cuts) for some more utility, especially Loxodon Hierarch is pretty good because he's a good blocker and helps you stabilize via the lifegain.
Another thing to ask you in testing is if 4 Eternal Witness ever is too much: I've always found them pretty clunky as a full playset.

Edit: Found my old file, updated it.



/// Maindeck (60 cards)

// Lands (24)
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Nantuko Monastery
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Bayou
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta

// Mana Fixers (3)
2 Krosan Tusker
1 Eternal Dragon

// Winconditions (3)
1 Gigapede
1 Grave-Shell Scarab
1 Haunting Echoes

// Utility (11)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Glittering Wish
3 Eternal Witness
2 Loxodon Hierarch

// Removal (19)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Shriekmaw
2 Chainer's Edict
3 Vindicate
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Crime/Punishment
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Damnation

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
1 Vindicate
1 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Dueling Grounds
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Glowrider
4 Thoughtseize
4 Planar Void


The only thing that wasn't explained yet is the lack of a sweeper in the Wishboard: I just don't feel that it is necessary because you already have Dueling Grounds to stall hordes. Everything but hordes is handled by your Mainboard sweepers or Vindicate/Loxodon Hierarch from the Wishboard: I just try to keep the Wishboard as compact as possible in order to have more 'real' boarding options.
The deck plays out nicely, I just don't see a reason to play this over a version with some 'hard' card advantage like Gifts Rock (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=200416&postcount=20) because that has a better lategame and doesn't risk running out of gas.

[Holo_rip]

hello there !
first, sorry for necroing this thread once again but i really think this deck deserve to stay at the top page of the established decks forum.
it have a very good matchup againt threshold, landstill and the like. Others matchup can be tought, but still winnable via glitttering wish.

I'd like to have some peace of advice for some particular matchup :
- aggro loam
- survival

They tend to crush me, and i haven't been able to fixe it (in fact, the one i really wory about is the aggro loam matchup).

first, my list :

land : 23
2 bayou
2 scrubland
1 savannah
4 swamp
3 forest
3 plains
1 volrath's stronghold
1 nantuko monastery

creature : 10
4 sakura-tribe elder
2 loxodon hierarch
2 shriekmaw
1 gigapede
1 grave-shell scarab

spells : 27
4 STP
4 Thoughtseize
4 duress
3 vindicate
3 pernicious deed
2 crime/punishment
1 hauting echoes
3 glittering wish
3 SDT

SB :
2 loxodon hierarch
1 vindicate
1 crime/punishment
1 dueling ground
2 gaddock teeg
4 leyline of the void
4 chalice of the void


i'm going to play this list in a tournament this week, and next week, so i would like some advice about how to play againt survival/aggro loam. What i am really wory about is how to stabilise before/after they've played a devastating dream, cause they tend to always have more land than me. About survival, i can't see much to do (others than crime the genesis and/or squee to avoid reccuring things)

my meta will consist of :
several thresh
several landstill
some combo (TES/belcher...)
maybe gob
1/2 ichorid
MBA/MBC
aggro loam
survival
1 life.Deck
and random thing

regard,
Holo.

[diffy]

Truffle Shuffle 2k8

If you want to beat Survival & Aggro Loam, you need more of a clock - you can't just control their stuff eternally as they have too strong engines, you therefore have to use your removal more as tempo tools than as control tools.
Some thoughts regarding your list:
I'm no fan of excessive discard packages: they are bad topdecks and don't affect the board or your opponent's life total - I'd at least cut the bad Duresses (they're dead or at least sub-optimal rather often) and move them to the board if your meta demands it.
-4 Duress
Vindicate and Crime/Punishment are very clunky cards- both are often too slow against many decks (especially C/P which is like a worse Explosives - same cost but you have to pay it all at once). I'd cut any number of them for quicker and more flexible removal, especially Shriekmaw is an awesome card as it acts as removal early and as very fine wincondition later.
-1 Vindicate
-1 Crime/Punishment
+1 Shriekmaw
+1 Chainer's Edict (additional lategame power)
Your manabase also seems a bit off: you don't need that many basic Plains as your main colours are black and green. Also, your list doesn't play any fetches (and only 17/23 lands so I assume that the rest are fetches). Here's how I'd adjust the manabase:
-1 Plains
-1 Swamp
+2 Nantuko Monastery (additional strong winconditions is never bad)
+3 Windswept Heath (green mana is rather essential as you can get the other basics via STE/VE under Blood Moon too)
+1 Polluted Delta
+2 Bloodstained Mire
As said earlier, you also need more of a clock - there's about no excuse not to play Tarmogoyf in this list, the anti-synergy with Deed doesn't count as when you're popping a Deed, you're already in that bad a situation (or in that good a situation after the Deed) that it doesn't matter if you trade 2-N or 1-N. In any other situation, Goyf is just great: a wall and a finisher combined in one card.
+4 Tarmogoyf
Kitchen Finks > Loxodon Hierarch because of curve reasons - the 1 additional power close to never makes a difference as both don't kill a Tarmogoyf but about everything else. Also, Kitchen Finks have great synergy with other strong cards such as Cabal Therapy which should be considered for the deck.
-2 Loxodon Hierarch
+2 Kitchen Finks
Sideboard: -1 Loxodon Hierarch
Sideboard: +1 Kitchen Finks (this change being even more important than the maindeck change as you can now actually wish for the lifegain guy on turn2 and play him on turn3 rather than having to wait another turn if you play Hierarch)
2 SDT are enough as you also have Glittering Wish as Card Quality Engine. Top also isn't at its best in this list as you don't play that many shuffle effects to make full use of it.
-1 SDT
Next up, you can start to get really techy by playing Veteran Explorer over STE: he's the more broken card and sometimes even acts as a mini-Moat as your opponent doesn't want to swing into it because it would warp you into the early lategame. Also, the Tempo gain will more often than not be one-sided as you're the guy with the expensive spells and because very few people actually play more than 1-2 Basics. If you play the Explorer, you'd need to include some Cabal Therapies as sac outlets into the deck though - which isn't that bad as Therapy is one of the best discard spells out there and has synergy with a great proportion of your deck (e.g. sacking a Goyf before Deed or using it with Explorers/Finks).
-4 STE
+4 Veteran Explorer
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Grave-Shell Scarab (you have better winconditions in Tarmogoyf)
+4 Cabal Therapy
In the sideboard you can get rid of the C/P - Deed does its job in better all the time (the random 'Crime on Genesis' occurs too rarely to warrant a slot).
Sideboard: -1 C/P
Sideboard: +1 Haunting Echoes (to get boarded in against Loam, Survival and other control)
With Explorers as good acceleration in the deck, you can cut another land
-1 Plains
+1 Eternal Dragon - I've come to love him in Landstill, he should be great in here too: mana fixing early and another huge recurable beater late

Here's the list with the changes up to now

3 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Nantuko Monastery
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Forest
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Dragon
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Gigapede
1 Haunting Echoes
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Shriekmaw
1 Chainer's Edict
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Vindicate
1 Crime/Punishment
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Glittering Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize

SB 1 Vindicate
SB 1 Pernicious Deed
SB 1 Kitchen Finks
SB 1 Dueling Grounds
SB 1 Grave-Shell Scarab (to get boarded in against Landstill)
SB 1 Haunting Echoes (also as board-in against Loam, Survival, Landstill etc.)
SB 3 Gaddock Teeg
SB 4 Leyline of the Void or Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB 2 Engineered Explosives (for the randomness and especially to have something to board in against NQG which can pose problems if they pack Needle)

Now, on to the Meta-related tuning.

First of all, if Survival & Loam pose you a problem, you will absolutely love more Haunting Echoes in the main - it shuts down their engines and acts as wincondition in a pinch.
-1 Crime/Punishment - both Survival and Loam aren't really going to have more than 1-2 permanents on the board so that your spot removal should be enough to keep them at bay especially since the Crime side of C/P is done better by Echoes.
+1 Haunting Echoes
Wheel of Sun and Moon over Leyline of the Void in the Sideboard: you don't really want to mulligan into Leyline against Aggro Loam and Wheel being slightly slower doesn't really matter than much because Aggro Loam isn't doing anything relevant until it reaches 3 mana.

So this would basically be the list I'd play in said meta:



/// Maindeck (60 cards)

// Lands (22)
3 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Nantuko Monastery
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Forest
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah

// Mana Fixing (5)
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Dragon

// Winconditions (9)
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Gigapede
2 Haunting Echoes

// Removal (13)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Shriekmaw
1 Chainer's Edict
2 Vindicate
3 Pernicious Deed

// Card Advantage (11)
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Glittering Wish

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
1 Vindicate
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Dueling Grounds
1 Grave-Shell Scarab
1 Haunting Echoes
3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Engineered Explosives




I would like some advice about how to play against survival/aggro loam


Playing against Survival isn't too hard: stall until you can resolve Haunting Echoes and win. The real problem in this matchup is Genesis which creates too much card advantage on its own, smaller problems are Anger which virtually doubles his clock and makes your sorcery speed removal much worse and Survival itself because it turns every creature he has into a Tarmogoyf/Doran/whatever scary thing he has. Use you removal and your discard (t1 blind Therapy should always name Survival) to stall and try to find Echoes at any cost.
Playing against Aggro Loam is much harder because of Devastating Dreams, but not impossible. Again, Haunting Echoes is your key card to finish the game - until you hit it and the five mana, try not to overextend your board with lands (keep as many in hand as you can). I'm not sure about this one but I think that Veteran Explorers are a good insurance against Dreams too: the lands get hit first, the damage is dealt after - it would be nice if someone could clarify this though.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Tarmogoyf is often too slow for control. You're not built to support him and replace him the way aggro decks and even Threshold are. When Tarmogoyf dies or gets countered (and he's terrible against Counterbalance too), you have nothing you can do besides wait to draw another threat. This is the time that costs you rounds because you draw where you should have won.

Hence the traditional ensemble of recursive creatures- Grave-Shell, Gigapede, and Witness. Much harder for control to deal with. The structure of control is simply different than aggressive decks; it's not enough for a threat to be mana-efficient. They have to shake the board or defy death. Or failing that, ala Tusker and Witness, provide a lot of flexibility.

I'm not liking STE or Veteran Explorer either. Your tempo advantage is better gained by disrupting the opponent than on accelerating into a Hierarch or Gigapede.

Shriekmaw seems pretty good. But I think you're getting carried away with colorless sources. 12 Green sources isn't enough.

[Holo_rip]

i really agree on tarmogoyf. Even if it can be better against some archetype, this particular control deck isn't build to abuse it. Reccuring threat in the form of gigaped, eternal dragon and grave-shell scarab seem really to be better.

About STE or veteran. They're not mean to accelerate us, they are here mainly to fixe the different color. In my build y only play 5 dual land, 6 fetch, and 10 basic. It help to get the color that we need. The fact that i can help casting a huge threath turn 3 is just a bonus. Plus, STE/veteran can chump block lackey or goyf and still give us an edge, by searching more land, fixe the mana, and permit us to draw into more threat/answer.
Moreover, we're not design to end the game fast, the fact that it allow us to have more land in play say "seal the game fast", it only help us to get full control of the game by casting multiple answer/disruption and then beater.

As for colorless land, i only run two, and i don't think i'll run more. 12 green source have always been enought for me, thanks to STE/veteran, i've never been in lack of green mana (or black/white mana in fact).
Shrieckmaw is really good here cause it 1) act as removal, 2) act as a beater, 3) can sometime save our ass in the ichorid matchup.

Finally, i'll be glad to see your latest list IBA.

Regard,
Holo.

[Agent J]

Ok first of all I'm not sure this is the right place to post it. The list I'm playing is neither clearly Truffle Shuffle nor clearly Rock but I decided to put it here because it's more of a control deck.

Whatever...here is the list:

2 Plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
3 Savannah
3 Scrubland

4 Kitchen Finks
3 Eternal Witness
2 Shriekmaw
1 Eternal Dragon

4 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Crime/Punishment
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Vindicate
1 Haunting Echoes
1 Liliana Vess

Sideboard:
4 Gaddock Teeg
4 Extirpate
3 Tsunami
3 Krosan Grip
1 Shriekmaw

Ok maybe I should add some explanations:

- I did not like Glittering Wish in testing. It's slow and besides a little flexibility it adds nothing to the. Wish for Dueling Grounds was nice sometimes but most of the time I wished for Vindicate anyway so I cut the wishes, moved the Vindicate to the main board and added another Crime/Punishment and another Kitchen Finks
- ...which brings us directly to the second issue. Kitchen Finks is simply freaking awesome IMO. It does exactly what this kind of deck needs. It can buy a lot of time and on the other hand it's still quite good on offense. It's more effective than Loxodon Hierarch, it's 2:1 against (almost) every deck without StP and it's very strong against Goblins and Threshold.
- I replaced Gigapede/Scarab with Liliana Vess. She works more or less like an hard to answer finisher and adds some felxibility. I haven't found out yet if she's worth the slot but tutoring especially for Haunting Echoes has been quite nice.
- I admit that the sideboard is still a little random...especially the Grips were often a little overkill. Maybe some Orim's Chant or Abeyance would be stronger.

Last but not least I have a small tournament report of last Saturday. It's not that representative because there were only 12 players so I'll keep it short.

1st Round vs. Black Threshold
Game 1 he's got CB + Top but it doesn't help him to protect his Goyfs and 2 Kitchen Finks take it home. Game 2 he's get's really flooded and after Deed, Witness, Deed he has no board to speak of.

2nd Round vs. Red ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh
I started with a Gameloss because I wasn't smart enough to write a correct decklist (14 SB cards) :wink: Game 1 (or should I say game 2) I Thoughtseize his Force of Will and he answers with a topdecked Mongoose. He can protect it a few turns and beats me down to 9 with it. Finally I manage to resolve a Kitchen Finks which brings me back to 11 and stops the Mongoose. He starts throwing Bolts and Fires at me while I get rid of his beater and start the offense. But a Price of Progress forces me to StP my own Finks to survive at 2. The next turn I evoke Shriekmaw and StP it too so that I can survive another Bolt/Fire. Fortunately I topdeck a Witness to recur a previously countered Finks and can win the game. The other game is far less exciting. I manage to control the board more or less the whole game and finish the Job with two Kitchen Finks.

3rd Round vs. TES
Game 1 Tendrils for someting like 30, Game 2 Thoughtseize, Gaddock Teeg. Game 3 was a little more interesting. We both mulligan down to 6 and he starts with Ponder. I snatch a Draw4 with Duress. He plays a land, passes and plays Orim's Chant in my upkeep. I already see myself losing with Gaddock Teeg in hand when he wants to pass the turn again. But EOT I extirpate his Chants and play Gaddock Teeg. He wishes for Pyroclasm but isn't able to cast it the same turn. I answer with Witness + Duress and he gives up.

4th Round I draw with a guy I know.

As I said it's not very representative (2 good Matchups, an ID and only 12 players) but I thought I'd still share it.

[Joon]

Here's my actual list:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
4 [B] Bayou
3 [B] Scrubland
2 [B] Savannah
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [UNH] Swamp
2 [UNH] Forest
1 [UNH] Plains

// Creatures
3 [LRW] Shriekmaw
3 [ON] Krosan Tusker
1 [ON] Gigapede
3 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
1 [RAV] Grave-Shell Scarab

// Spells
2 [TO] Chainer's Edict
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [FUT] Glittering Wish
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
2 [OD] Haunting Echoes
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [AP] Vindicate

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [DIS] Crime/Punishment
SB: 1 [AP] Vindicate
SB: 1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 [IN] Dueling Grounds
SB: 4 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 4 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 [RAV] Grave-Shell Scarab

What do you think? Should I optimize the Manabase further? Maybe Monasteries (1-2 maybe?). What do you think about adding Goyf? He'd serve in the same way as in Landstill: A wall (if needed) in the early game, and a fast finisher in the later game. He alone would make the VG Matchup much better (Finks are good there, too, I know). But I don't know what to cut for a full Playset of Goyfs...I don't want to cut removal, I don't want to cut wish. So, only creatures...maybe of the Gigapede/Grave-Shell ones? I don't need those finishers with Goyf but I'd like to keep one. And then? Three slots missing :rolleyes:
Any further suggestions?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I know that Glittering Wish has to have gotten much better with Eventide, but I don't know how. Anyone find anything silly in there yet?

[Illissius]

Well, let's see. Here's what looks even remotely usable:

Augury Adept
Dawnglow Infusion
Everlasting Torment
Firespout
Fracturing Gust
Fulminator Mage
Kitchen Finks
Mirrorweave
Murderous Redcap
Oversoul of Dusk
Vexing Shusher
Wheel of Sun and Moon

Cold-Eyed Selkie
Creakwood Liege
Divinity of Pride
Pyrrhic Revival
Rise of the Hobgoblins
Stillmoon Cavalier

Nothing which really jumps out. Firespout, but this deck is redless.

[Pinder]

Finks seems like the likeliest option, as it fits in with the recursion theme really nicely and gains you life (while being a decent beater). Not sure if it's a better wish target than Hierarch, though.

[Phantom]

Seems like wishing turn 2 for a Finks and dropping him turn 3 against a quick aggro deck is fairly solid. I would imagine it to be a better play against Goblins, and possibly even burn, than Hierarch.

Does Wheel of Sun and Moon not interest anyone? Seems like a turn 1 discard spell, turn 2 Wish, turn 3 Wheel is a pretty strong play against the multitude of yard decks. I know this deck always ran Echoes as a bomb, but is that even possible anymore? It seems like Dredge and Reanimator are too fast for it, and Loam will go out of its way (via Waste and Devastating Dreams) to ensure you never hit 3:b::b:.

[raharu]

Not to say that Echoes is the bee's knees agianst reanimator, but I'd think that match, if Echoes was involved, would look something like this:

T1
OP: Careful Study tossing fat
You: stuff

T2
OP: Exhume
You: Removal

T3
OP: Putrid Imp -> discard -> Reanimate
You: Kill it.

repeat for a while, Echoes comes in and takes all their set up tools and reanimation. Sounds like a plan? It does to me.

Glittering Wish: is there any reason not to play a Mystic Enforcer in the side? The only thing it dies to it combat damage and Swords to Plowshares (and Oblivion ring, but that's a rather irrelevant point).

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Moment's Peace would greatly improve the Ichorid matchup. And possibly a lot of others. I've been wanting to run it for a while, but I'm not sure what the strongest cut is.

I'm not the hugest fan of any pure fat card in the SB. Space is fairly tight. I'd rather just wish for Hierarch and have the double utility against burn.

[Holo_rip]

i've been playing the deck for quite a long time now (with MD wish), and i must say that wish doesn't look that good anymore to me.
I've switch to 3 eternal witness, has it give us a body (though weak one) and still provide card advantage / utility.
Also, what should we consider to have againt intuition control .deck ?
Haunting echoes doesn't really help here. Should we switch echoes to extirpate ?
Also, latest list IBA ?

Holo.

[Carabas]

I'm having some trouble in the Aggro Loam matchup. Should I put extirpates in the SB? Recurring wasteland means I have trouble getting to the 5 mana for echoes/gigapede, and 1x scarab isn't going to do me a ton. I've been experimenting with Wheel of Sun and Moon to wish for, but everyone and their brother runs EE or deed, and not being able to deed for 2 or more severely limits the board control options.

[Holo_rip]

aggro loam ---> haunting echoes.
moreover, you should extirpate their wasteland, you must extirpate their engine : life from the loam.
I personally now run extirpate rather than echoes (though i run one in the sideboard), but it is only because i run 3 witness with a recurring nightmare in my list (wich is now more or less an hydrib between The Rock and The Truffle Shuffle).
Also, if you run wish, you can still wish for Wheel of sun and moon.

Holo.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

If the problem is Wastelands and Devastating Dreams, Sacred Ground might be more useful as a sideboard card. It would also work against Armageddon-type decks and Crucible-Wasteland and what not.

Not savage synergy with Deed, granted...

Well, there's always Second Sunrise?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

So, for a while I wondered, with the huge leap forward into Tier 1 status that I think the Painters-Grindstone combo takes Mighty Quinn on, if there was a point to this deck anymore, or if it had been eclipsed in function.

I've been back like two and a half months now, however, and it has. I've noticed something.

Everyone and their mother is begging to lose to Deed.

Seriously. I don't think I've seen a metagame that was this heavy on the board elements since 1.5. There's several factors at work behind this, with the rise of Top-Balance and Something-Stompy being the most obvious.

But Disk, Deed, Akroma's Vengeance, et. al, are poised to tear the metagame apart.

In addition to this, I've had another revelation;

Discard is useless in this deck.

Well, not useless. But one of it's most important functions, getting through counters, is gone. The most dangerous counters now are Chalice of the Void and Counterbalance. Neither of these is impressed by Thoughtseize or Hymn. Those counters that do get hit by discard are clearly the less threatening of the lot; in fact, the most commonly played are either very situational and card parity (Spell Snare, Daze) or simply card disadvantage (FoW).

However, this converges harmoniously with the other effect; in short, instead of running cards that kill boards and cards that let the board clearers get through, we can now just run more board clearing, since the two effects tend towards becoming the same.

So, with these facts in mind, I've retinkered the deck to be closer to the model I first experimented with a year and some change ago, abandoning discard to focus on board clearing.

// Lands
4 [A] Bayou
2 [B] Savannah
2 [SHM] Swamp (2)
1 [9E] Plains (3)
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
4 [MR] Forest (3)
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [B] Scrubland
4 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
2 [ON] Gigapede
3 [FNM] Krosan Tusker
4 [FD] Eternal Witness
2 [RAV] Grave-Shell Scarab

// Spells
3 [AP] Vindicate
3 [PLC] Damnation
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [OD] Haunting Echoes
3 [DIS] Crime/Punishment
3 [OD] Moment's Peace
1 [REW] Condemn

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
SB: 4 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 3 [SH] Sacred Ground

The SB is imperfect, but this does seem to fit the niche of "smashing decks that over-commit". I especially like the addition of Moment's Peace, which heavily encourages over-commitment.

[Jak]

I like it. It is close to what I ran a bit ago. No discard, just removal and board clearers. How is the one Condemn?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It really wishes it was StP, but there's legality issues, I'm afraid. It could also be Chainer's Edict, I suppose, but I like having more answers to Lackey.

[raharu]

Why no EE? It seems like a fair complement to Damnation, Deed, and Punishment... or is it just too much?

[slyfer]

I think that crime punishment is better in his decklist, occasionally he just pop up a dude from the grave, plus does not suffer stifle/trickbind/needle/grip

[Nihil Credo]

You have plenty of ways to kill artifacts and enchantments, you don't have a land destruction plan, you'd welcome extra win conditions, and you run Volrath's Stronghold. All that points me in the direction of Shriekmaws in at least some of the slots currently held by Vindicate.

[Waikiki]

How does it ever make a chance against combo? I do think some discard is needed.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The plan against combo is to force the trickier/more difficult Tendrils and/or Belcher kill g1, and then hoping that fails. EtW tokens will almost certainly die before they can do lethal. Still, g1 is bad. But discard wouldn't help that much, and it's just not as good in other matchups anymore. And combo's not superprevalent anyway. Chant and Leyline are for combo g2.

Also, a lot of the non-storm combo does rely on permanents anyway. See: Painter decks, for instance.

[Holo_rip]

Interesting list IBA.
the loose of the discard make or matchup againt combo a nightmare g1, but it strenghten the matchup against aggro-control a la Threshold, stax, swarm aggro, affinity and enchantress.
With the right sideboard, you can wrench combo (thought i'm not sure 4 leyline and 4 orim's chant will be enought). But to do this you have to board in like 8 / 10 revelant card against them (here, i would play chalice / gaddock teeg / orim or discard).

Another point i would like to discuss with all of you Sourcers is this :

Does this deck need some kind of draw ?

In my version, i play two : skeletal scrying or harmonize (depending on the version i play).
Is this a waste of space ?
Do you feel the need to get some real way to make CA ?
If you feel that yes, wich card would be the best to achieve this goal ?

Holo.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Eternal Witness and Top are CA (sort of) that's not really cuttable in my opinion. The other card-draw spell here is Krosan Tusker, which I'm deeply emotionally attached to, but which I suppose could be some other card draw. It has a lot of synergy with the deck, though, and is particularly good at ramping you up to Damnation. And other card draw can't really double as a kill condition, which has been pretty relevant at times. Harmonize might work in that slot, I just haven't tested it as much.

As far as combo, I'm not sure about discard. It really depends what type of combo we're going after, but a lot of them empty their hands, or try to, early on for instance. Chalice I'm not a huge fan of because Deed is often still good in this matchup and the synergy is terrible. For the same reason I'm not thinking P. Needle would be great. Maybe just going back to discard is the best option; Could always cut Hiearch and run 4 Duress, 4 Thoughtseize in that and the Chant slots.

[Holo_rip]

I also play top / witness in my version. Also, i really like tusker. I used to play others card like Sakura tribe or veteran explorer in the mana stabilizer slot, but piggy allow us a 2 for 1, plus a shuffle effect. The only bad thing is that it cost 3 to cycle.

Also, i've never try the deck without card draw and with witness/tusker (the first time i've introduce card draw, i was using sakura tribe), thus it may be ok do skip card draw and focus on top / witness / tusker.

and about discard, even if it can be appealing to skip it, i really think that at least 4 discard effect is necesary. Just to be able to see the opening hand of your opponent can be great. moreover, it allow to force some spell into play.

Also, i really think that extirpate is superior than haunting echoes. While it is a win condition by itself, echoes take time to settle, and it is really slow in certain matchup (ichorid, aggro-loam). Plus, with witness you can recur them easilly.
And please, test a one of recurring nightmare. It is really amazing late game, you'll love it !

Holo.

[Mister Agent]

Nice deck list Jack.

I can see why you did not incorporate krosan grip in the board mainly because after seeing what sweepers you have in the main krosan grip does seem redundant in here.

This deck still has a nice draw engine with krosan tusker, fetchlands, eternal witness, and also SDTop. It doesn't seem like you will have any problems finding what you need in alot of matchups.

Also moment's peace is the nuts against ichorid and along with eternal witness/volrath's stronghold seems like you can time walk goblins out of the game especailly in supplement with board sweepers.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Moment's Peace has been pretty hit or miss, although I'm not sure if I'd think about cutting it at the moment. Some matchups and some situation's it's amazing in, mostly where it stalls out until a board clearer, or pressures an opponent to over-commit, but often it's just a card-disadvantage bandaid on a hemmoraging wound.

That being said, where it's powerful, it's very powerful.

I've been very happy with Punishment over EE, it's much better at attacking Counterbalance, Chalice, etc., and the alternate kill condition option has won a few games.

Right now I'm pondering the benefits of fitting in a second Echoes, given the rising prevalence of graveyard based decks, including Ichorid and especially LftL, the latter being where Echoes is pretty much my only hope.

If I ran two Echoes main, I'd consider not running SB graveyard hate further, which would clear up more room for anti-combo pieces like Thoughtseize or Cabal Therapy.

[Holo_rip]

just to let you all know, i am testing a variant with 4 Leyline MD, 1 helm of obedience and 1 liliana vess. Till now it have been amazing. Having acces to a combo finish really help.
Moreover, MD Leyline wrench several strategy, such as loam, ichorid and survival (just to name a few).

Holo.

[Roman Candle]

I've been playing around with a build that drops White for Red in order to play Burning Wish. The only things you lose are StP and Vindicate, and while these are excellent cards, I was curious to see how Burning Wish would fit into the deck.

Rough, mostly untested list:

3 Eternal Witness
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Shriekmaw
1 Gigapede
1 Grave-Shell Scarab

3 Burning Wish
3 Damnation
4 Terminate
4 Diabolic Edict
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Innocent Blood

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Taiga
2 Bayou
2 Badlands
3 Forest
3 Swamp
3 Mountain

Sideboard:
1 Haunting Echoes
1 Demonfire
1 Reverent Silence
1 Damnation
1 Shattering Spree
1 Crime//Punishment
1 Void
1 Pyroclasm
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Krosan Grip

StP is replaced by Innocent Blood, and Vindicate has been replaced by Terminate and Burning Wish for Arti/Enchantment removal. The theory is that Burning Wish acts as an additional three wincons as well as utility.

Also, I don't understand why nobody likes STE. He chumps and accelerates, which can mean 3-4 life and a Damnation a turn earlier. He also fights Ichorid. I would definitely be inclined to play him over Moment's Peace.

[Holo_rip]

the thing about STE is that it come down on turn 2.
I mean, while it is revelant in the ichorid matchup, ichorid can just go crazy and have the turn 1 kill. About chumping, ok it is great, but i can still be stifled, and it's a one on one trade (one card for one card), while tusker allow you to have a land drop this or next turn, while giving us a draw, and thus a 2 for 1. Also, tusker can be a win condition beiing a 6/5. *I really think itis this that put him over the edge.

But yeah, in a meta filled with ichorid, STE is the way to go.

Holo.

[Mordel]

Has anyone tried the cheap fat beats and discard in their sideboard since the deck has moved from disruption to lots of board control?

I have been keeping up with this thread for a while now, but haven't really posted anything about it. I was playing around with IBA's most recent list and I noticed people siding out pretty much all their removal against me and combo trouncing me.

I was thinking about something like:

4x negator
4x thoughseize
3x duress
4x hierarch/blastoderm/something else that swings hard and is efficient

Admittedly, the decks that generally go with the "Mike Long" sideboard strategy have been combo decks, which means they have acceleration to get their sided beats in faster. No room for leyline is pretty detrimental too, so the idea won't work for sure.

I was mostly curious if anyone has tried it and knows that it is awful.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'd want Loaming Shaman in place of Negators in that plan. It doesn't hit as hard, but it multitasks as graveyard hate. Also, Orim's Chant + Thoughtseize/Duress seems like the one you want. I'm wondering if Thoughtseize is really better than Duress, since you'd be siding it in against combo anyway, and you already have a bajillion ways to kill creatures. The two life can matter, that's one off their storm count for Tendrils.


The Red splash is really interesting with Jund Charm, I think. I'm a big fan of that card.

As far as STE goes, the reason I don't run him is that the deck is built around the game plan of acceleration through deceleration; if the opponent is reeling and stumbling because their plan's been fucked up, you already have plenty of time to play lands. All STE does, usually, is up your land count by one and maybe chump block, but in the already low cc curve of Legacy, he doesn't do much to mess with the opponent.

[Mantis]

After my Death Cloud in Legacy experiment I found out Death Cloud is terrible in Legacy, but Garruk Wildspeaker is actually surprisingly awesome in this format. Now I'm just trying to find a home for Garruk and this seems to be the right deck for that card.

Here's the list I am currently testing (note that I haven't tested the list a lot yet):
// Lands
4 [A] Bayou
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [B] Savannah
2 [SHM] Swamp (2)
1 [9E] Plains (3)
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
4 [MR] Forest (3)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [B] Scrubland

// Creatures
4 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker
3 [FNM] Krosan Tusker
3 [LRW] Shriekmaw OR Vindicate
2 [ON] Gigapede
4 [FD] Eternal Witness

// Spells
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [DIS] Crime/Punishment
1 [OD] Haunting Echoes
2 [OD] Moment's Peace
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [PLC] Damnation

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 4 [ON] Ravenous Baloth (awesome with Garruk)
SB: 3 [EVE] Wickerbough Elder OR Krosan Grip (Grip is probably better)

I am not sure if Sakura should be in here, since he can accelerate into Garruk and thus providing you with one extra activation and he can also protect the Garruk, therefore I think Sakura might win out and replace Krosan Tusker (although I really like that card as well, so I'm really not sure yet).

[Illissius]

I don't want to start a new thread for it (because, among other reasons, it's not my deck), but this (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22413) looks a lot like Truffle Shuffle minus black:

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Runed Halo
4 Wing Shards
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Wrath of God
4 Humility
3 Krosan Tusker
3 Eternal Dragon
3 Decree of Justice
1 Ajani Goldmane
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Nantuko Monastery
4 Windswept Heath
10 Plains
5 Forest
1 Savannah
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 2 Vexing Shusher
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Orim's Chant

I like how it manages to abuse Humility while running fat creatures. (Fat creatures cycle, manlands and Decrees own the board.) I like how all of the win conditions either cycle, produce mana, or are Ajani. I like how it has 23 pieces of removal, 17 win conditions, 27 lands, and 15 basics. This deck looks pretty awesome. The only thing this deck is missing is Sensei's Divining Top.

[bigbear102]

This is much more akin to Irish Wombat.

Too many Humilites and Wraths also, if I were to tweak it, the deck would look like:

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Runed Halo
3 Wing Shards
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Wrath of God
3 Humility
Plenty of creature kill/handling here. No need for 4 Humilities, as doubles are useless until destroyed, and it isn't hitting play until turn 4 in a deck that has thinning and cantrips.

4 Abeyance - Gives you a chance against Combo game 1 without being dead and makes Wing Shards better.

2 Sensei's Divining Top - There are 4 fetches, 3 Dragon, 3 tusker, and some contrips.

3 Krosan Tusker
3 Eternal Dragon
3 Decree of Justice
1 Ajani Goldmane
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery
4 Windswept Heath
13 Plains
2 Forest
1 Savannah
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Orim's Chant - Vexing Shusher is replaced by Abeyance MD, and Chant gives you a shot against combo, though a small one.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I've been this deck for a few weeks, and i have one extra maindeck slot, but idk what to use. Like i've tested Eternal Dragon, and i never get him back. I've tested Shriekmaw, but i already run so much removal. I was just wondering if i could add another removal proof creature/win condition.

Here is my list:

2x Savannah
3x Scrubland
4x Bayou
4x Forest
2x Swamp
1x Plains
4x Windswept Heath
2x Bloodstained Mire
1x Volrath's Stronghold

4x Krosan Tusker
2x Gigapede
2x Grave-Shell Scarab
4x Eternal Witness
1x Shriekmaw (Debatable slot)

3x Damnation
3x Crime/Punishment
4x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Chainer's Edict
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Pernicious Deed
3x Vindicate

SideBoard:
2x Krosan Grip
4x Engineered Plague
3x Circle of Protection Red
3x Extirpate
3x Leyline of the Void

As you can see... i pretty much sacrifice my combo match up to make other matchups better. I love Chainer's Edict in this deck too. I know it isn't exactly Counterbalance proof or anything, but noone runs that in my meta, so it's awesome.

Thoughts on another alternate win condition?

[Captain Hammer]

Well, the gameplan for this archeatype seems to be to roll over and die to combo.

It would need more low cc discard and fast efficient big threats and/or Chalice + Trini in the board to beat combo consistently.

Should be strong against both aggro and control though.

In that, it reminds of Train Wreck, and pretty much all of IBA's decks.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I just love how this deck just beats blue.

The entire reason i built it was because everyone runs Countertop-less blue decks and Wasteland/Land destruction bs in my meta.

I'm just sick of losing to blue/Wasteland.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I just love how this deck just beats blue.

The entire reason i built it was because everyone runs Countertop-less blue decks and Wasteland/Land destruction bs in my meta.

I'm just sick of losing to blue/Wasteland.

Hey, I resent that!!!! I don't play Thresh garbage, and I usually bring a different deck each week. Plus I have like 4-6 decks that I consistently play. However, I am guilty on playing decks with Wasteland ...... being able to Loam back Wasteland makes you destroy Thresh and Landstill!!

I would go -1 Gigapede, -1 Shriekmaw and +2 Spiritmonger or +2 Doran. That card is spectacular in every way. People will no doubt suggest Tombstalker, but in a deck like this .... no, certainly the wrong choice. Also, a good change would be -1 Eternal Witness, -1 Crime/Punishment/Deed and +2 Path to Exile/Putrefy. I just have a problem playing 4x Deed. It seems like to many and in multiples it is usually unnecessary, especially alongside all of your other removal.

By the way, changes to the SB, everything looks good except cut Leyline completely and run Choke. Choke OWNS our meta. Play no less than 3!!!!

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Hey, I resent that!!!! I don't play Thresh garbage, and I usually bring a different deck each week. Plus I have like 4-6 decks that I consistently play. However, I am guilty on playing decks with Wasteland ...... being able to Loam back Wasteland makes you destroy Thresh and Landstill!!

I would go -1 Gigapede, -1 Shriekmaw and +2 Spiritmonger or +2 Doran. That card is spectacular in every way. People will no doubt suggest Tombstalker, but in a deck like this .... no, certainly the wrong choice. Also, a good change would be -1 Eternal Witness, -1 Crime/Punishment/Deed and +2 Path to Exile/Putrefy. I just have a problem playing 4x Deed. It seems like to many and in multiples it is usually unnecessary, especially alongside all of your other removal.

By the way, changes to the SB, everything looks good except cut Leyline completely and run Choke. Choke OWNS our meta. Play no less than 3!!!!

I would run Doran and Spiritmonger, but this deck isn't TheRock haha. I just need untargetable stuff that recurs so i can actually get around to winning.

I agree with Choke in the board.. but it just seems like too much blue hate haha. I just figured i'd play it safe with the leyline since this deck just beats blue already. Plus Deed and Choke = bad haha.

But yeah i want to use Putrefy but taking out a Deed for it wouldn't make sense bc you can like 4 for 1 with Deed. The not able to regenerate part doesn't mean that much to me either bc it's not like their Jitte will ever equip to a creature haha.

[Mordel]

So, this is a tad of a necro, but whatever.

The other day while drunk I decided to try to throw something together. In retrospect it sort of looks like a BGW version of quinn or something.

Yeah. I don't know if I really want to work on this deck further or if it is any better than X. I just wanted to spitball a quick list and see if anyone had tried something similar as of late to any sort of good effect.

// Lands
3 [A] Bayou
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [R] Savannah
2 [A] Scrubland
1 [JU] Nantuko Monastery
3 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [U] Swamp (1)
2 [MR] Plains (4)
2 [9E] Forest (3)
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Spells
1 [LG] Moat
3 [SC] Decree of Justice
1 [TE] Scroll Rack
2 [TE] Humility
1 [U] Wrath of God
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
1 [NE] Seal of Cleansing
2 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
1 [PLC] Damnation
4 [US] Duress
2 [TSB] Gaea's Blessing
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
3 [AP] Vindicate

I don't really think that any of the card choices are particularly unorthodox except for the scroll racks and blessings, which make a bit of an engine in conjunction with LFtL.

I dunno. Whatever. There's a list anyway.

[Roman Candle]

I'm gonna necro this with a list that I've been testing on and off for months. I posted an early version a while ago, before Maelstrom Pulse was printed. Overall, I feel like its pretty strong. It might need a new thread, since its a little different, but whatever.

3 Shriekmaw
3 Eternal Witness
1 Gigapede
1 Grave-Shell Scarab

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Firespout
4 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Innocent Blood
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Terminate
3 Jund Charm
3 Burning Wish

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Taiga
3 Bayou
3 Badlands
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
3 Forest

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Life from the Loam
1 Call the Skybreaker
1 Haunting Echoes
1 Banefire
1 Reverent Silence
1 Meltdown
1 Damnation

Card choices:

3 Firespout: A really strong sweeper now that decks like Zoo and tribal aggro are growing in popularity.

4 Innocent Blood: When you cut white, you lose StP. This fixes that.

3 Jund Charm: Surprisingly solid. Its usually just an instant-speed 'Clasm, but the combat trick can be a nice surprise and the grave removal is randomly broken against some decks.

4 Maelstrom Pulse: My Vindicate replacement. Slightly weaker, but it fits the color scheme.

3 Burning Wish: The main reason to splash red, in my opinion. It can fetch win conditions (Haunting Echoes, Banefire, Call the Skybreaker), removal (Tranquil Domain, Meltdown), or utility (Life from the Loam).

What worries me is that my card advantage comes almost completely from my sweepers, and so sometimes I run out of steam.

Anyway, thoughts?

[Zach Tartell]

Anyway, thoughts?


Run 4 top. You can't argue this one.
Jund Charm isn't as good as you're making it out to be. If you were playing Goyfs or something that you could reasonably run into something and then use the 'clasm it'd make way more sense. But you don't.
Just because you're not running white doesn't mean you can't run Wrath. I'd suggest Damnation in the place of your Firespouts (as Firespout is garbage when it comes to killing non-tribal threats).
Play Crime/Punishment as a one- or two-of. It'll help against Counter/Top strategies and will kill elves or whatever in a pinch. It's WAY more maindeckable than is Krosan Grip in a deck like this, and will serve a similar function (in killing Counterbalance 100% of the time that you don't run into a Force of Will).

[Roman Candle]

Run 4 top. You can't argue this one.
Jund Charm isn't as good as you're making it out to be. If you were playing Goyfs or something that you could reasonably run into something and then use the 'clasm it'd make way more sense. But you don't.
Just because you're not running white doesn't mean you can't run Wrath. I'd suggest Damnation in the place of your Firespouts (as Firespout is garbage when it comes to killing non-tribal threats).
Play Crime/Punishment as a one- or two-of. It'll help against Counter/Top strategies and will kill elves or whatever in a pinch. It's WAY more maindeckable than is Krosan Grip in a deck like this, and will serve a similar function (in killing Counterbalance 100% of the time that you don't run into a Force of Will).


1) The fourth Top should admittedly be in here. I won't argue that.

2+3) The thing about Jund Charm and Firespouts are that you already play a shitload of removal. With Terminates, Pulses, Deeds, Shriekmaws, and Innocent Blood, you don't really have any trouble with fatter creatures. Firespout and Jund Charm are strong against smaller creatures (Tribal, and Zoo, although Jund Charm is weaker against Zoo.) and Jund Charm is almost never a dead card (although it is admittedly less than stellar at times). Plus, you can theoretically run Witness or Shriekmaw into threats and then Jund Charm/Firespout. I do want to fit in Damnation, but I'm worried about the 4cc just being too much, especially if I'm playing around Daze against Merfolk, etc.

4) Crime/Punishment is good, but honestly, I have 8 3cc outs to Counterbalance, plus Burning Wish (I realize its not going to resolve often against Counterbalance, but meh.)

[beastman]

Maybe toss in a few more boardsweepers:laugh:

[Joon]

After several hours of testing I wanted to share my latest list with you guys. The new fetchlands will help to stabilize the manabase even further.

First the list I used to test till new fetchlands were announced:

04 Bloodstained Mire
04 Windswept Heath
04 Bayou
03 Scrubland
02 Savannah
03 Swamp
03 Forest
01 Plains

02 Gigapede
03 Eternal Witness

02 Eternal Dragon
03 Krosan Tusker

04 Swords to Plowshares
03 Chainer's Edict
04 Vindicate
03 Maelstrom Pulse

04 Pernicious Deed
03 Crime/Punishment

04 Sensei's Divining Top
01 Haunting Echoes

SB
04 Duress
04 Tormod's Crypt
04 Kitchen Finks
03 Loxodon Hierarch

It plays incredible solid, but I'm thinking of adding a pair of Damnations to the main (in place of some number of Vindicates/Pulses) to improve the Tribal, especially the Merfolk Matchup, because they are able to stifle your Deed, leaving you with C/P as only Sweeper.

On the other hand it was extremely helpful to have seven Vindicate effects against Planeswalker, Balance (although C/P is better here because of cc4) and generally everything.

The manabase has proven itself to be quite stable, but cutting Mire for the new B/G is undebatable. The B/W Fetchland could also be played as Fetchie #9 and #10.

I've got 15 need white mana symbols, 22 black and 26 green ones.
One could play something like this as a manabase

4 B/G Fetch
4 Heath
2 B/W Fetch
4 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains

Although ten fetches might be risky (lifeloss and Stifle). The configuration I like the most is the following one.

4 B/G Fetch
3 Heath
2 B/W Fetch
4 Bayou
3 Scrubland
2 Savannah
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains

Only one fetchland more, but still all duals on board. Only one basic Swamp had to go (I don't feel like I need three of them as you never need double Black unless you want to flashback Chainer's Edict or play Echoes).
Every fetchland can find two different basics now.

Please feel free to comment on my list, especially my manabase.

P.S.: What do you guys think about Planeswalkers in this deck? I thought about Elspeth main or Ajani Goldmane in the Sideboard. The double white manacosts are difficult, though.

[(nameless one)]

with all the shuffling going on, has anyone tried Scroll Rack in this deck?

[Shanghi Knights]

@Joon

Once the new fetches are out i can't see double white being a problem for you. But when it comes to the planeswalkers, based on what i've seen this deck do in the past i want to say skip over ones like elseph or ajani (golden) least for the build you were testing with. At the same time with sick planeswalkers like Sorin Markov coming out i can't rule them out entirely. (even 3 black seems heavy for the mana spread) But if you were spreading the mana to run wraths and humilities or any thing of that nature then by all means don't stop from putting in elseph or ajani. But i come back to concerns of function. Does there over all function really help the decks main game plan, plus in my opinion if you draw them late game isn't there a possibility of something better that would fit a lot more possible senarios you might find yourself in?

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@IBA: Could i get that Red Splash Truffle Shuffle list? Seems interesting and fun as hell.

[Hopo]

Tournament tested and modified red splash w/Progenitus and at the moment unfinished sideboard:

4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Progenitus

4 Thoughtseize
4 Burning Wish
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Hymn to Tourach

3 Terminate
3 Jund Charm

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed

3 Mire
3 Foothills
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Swamp
3 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Life from the Loam
1 Haunting Echoes
1 Natural Order
1 Duress
1 Crime/Punishment
1 Damnation
1 Reverent Silence
4 variable testing slots (harmonize, pyroclasm, deathmark, shattering spree, meltdown, anarchy, ruination, hymn to tourach, chainer's edict, whatever)

I would play four Pulses, but own only three at the moment.
Goyfs and finks' are basically fodder for a wished Natural Order. Natural Order is the most wished spell. Haunting Echoes is second.

The deck absolutely needs 4 tops, especially with Progenitus.
I see Jund Charm as an underrated card. Maindeckable sweeper, graveyard hate and pump in one instant card is awesome. This deck can actually handle the awkward manacost.

Usually rockish-trufflish-shufflish decks suffer from non-basic hate. I had this in mind and after losing miserably to Back to Basics, I switched to more basics. I'd actually want to fit in there 4 Magus of the Moons now, but it takes some tweaking to find room.

Since I don't have any draw, I play cards granting card advantage in sweepers, finks and hymn. Top guarantees adequate control over card quality. It works, since the bomb density is quite high. Lot's of gamebreaking cards there.

I welcome ideas of how to fit Magus of the Moon in.

[Shanghi Knights]

lately i've been getting angry at my aggro loam and was thinking of switching over to a deck of this nature.

I do have this urge to use veteran explorer at the same. would that be more rock based to use him or would truffle shuffle be an ok spot for him? such as in the sakura tribe elder slot.

[Droxis]

I'm interested in this deck. I've been trying to make "The Rock" work in some fashion and I'm seeing this one with a different name. Is this a rock variant? What's different about it, really? All in control Rock? Or something? I'm confused. :C

[Roman Candle]

I'm interested in this deck. I've been trying to make "The Rock" work in some fashion and I'm seeing this one with a different name. Is this a rock variant? What's different about it, really? All in control Rock? Or something? I'm confused. :C

The Rock is a midgame deck, while this is a dedicated board control deck. They play completely differently. Plus The Rock sucks in Legacy.

[Hiis]

I've been playing a mono black board control deck for a while and recently decided to add green and white to it, this is the result of my brainstorming, trials and errors:

Lands (24):
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Marsh Flats
3x Bayou
3x Scrubland
3x Swamp
2x Windswept Heath
2x Plains
2x Forest
2x Savannah
1x Volrath's Stronghold

Removal (15):
4x Pernicious Deed
4x Vindicate
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Damnation
1x Maelstrom Pulse

Creatures (11):
3x Krosan Tusker
3x Gatekeeper of Malakir
3x Eternal Witness
2x Kitchen Finks

Walkers etc (10):
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2x Liliana Vess
2x Garruk Wildspeaker
1x Ajani Goldmane

Sideboard:
3x Choke
3x Engineered Plague
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Circle of Protection: Red
2x Krosan Grip
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Maelstom Pulse


I wanted to maximize on the usage of planeswalkers as win conditions because of their resistance to removal and so far the results have been nothing but great. I've been testing the deck against B/x disruption aggro, tribal and U/x walker/landstill and haven't lost a single two-out-of-three match. I'd like to add one Gigapede to the deck but can't really come up with anything reasonable to take out. Gatekeeper of Malakir is really good and the 5+ vindicate effects are great as well.

[Tao]

Explore 1G
Sorcery
You may play an additional land this turn. Draw a card.

IBA already said that this is good and I thought the same, too. Between the slow Tusker and the bad topdeck Tribe Elder this might be the 2-drop the deck waited for. You really don't mind if they Snare or Daze it, playing 4 won't hurt your late game since it cycles, it can chain into a turn 2 StoP or Top activation or a turn 3 Wrath. It looks just tailor-made.

[Joon]

While it certainly seems better than Tusker or Elder, you got to remember that this card does not shuffle necessarily, only if you got a fetchland. Just wanted to mention that. But I guess I'd play it over Tusker.

A question for those who played this more often than me: What do you think, additional sweepers to Deed in form of Damnation/Deed or are Maelstrom Pulses better?

I'd play something like this with the new card:

04 Swords to Plowshares
04 Chainer's Edict
04 Vindicate
04 Pernicious Deed
02 Engineered Explosives
02 Crime/Punishment

03 Eternal Witness
02 Eternal Dragon
01 Gigapede
01 Grave-Shell Scarab

01 Haunting Echoes

04 Explore
04 Sensei's Divining Top

04 Verdant Catacombs
03 Marsh Flats
03 Windswept Heath
04 Bayou
03 Scrubland
02 Savannah
02 Swamp
02 Forest
01 Plains

Maybe one fetchland or Scrubland less to play more basics.

[Agent J]

I played the following rather traditional list at a GPT this weekend and went Top 8 with it. I lost to manascrew in the quarterfinals. Besides that it worked quite well even though I have to admit that the matchups were quite favorable (Merfolk, Fish etc.).

4x Bayou
3x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp
3x Savannah
2x Verdant Catacombs
1x Volrath's Stronghold
4x Windswept Heath
2x Scrubland

2x Krosan Tusker
4x Eternal Witness

1x Sorin Markov
2x Liliana Vess
3x Moment's Peace
3x Crime / Punishment
4x Pernicious Deed
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Path to Exile
4x Thoughtseize
1x Haunting Echoes
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Damnation
3x Vindicate

SB:
4x Duress
4x Extirpate
4x Gaddock Teeg
3x Innocent Blood

I'm still a huge fan of Moment's Peace because it usually gives you all the time you need to find/be able to cast a sweeper.
Maybe I'd switch 1 Crime/Punishment for another Damnation since it's often more effective.
Last but not least Sorin wasn't that great. His second ability is more or less useless in this deck an he's really slow. Perhaps a different Planeswalker would be a better choice (Elspeth or Garruk probably).



Explore 1G
Sorcery
You may play an additional land this turn. Draw a card.

IBA already said that this is good and I thought the same, too. Between the slow Tusker and the bad topdeck Tribe Elder this might be the 2-drop the deck waited for. You really don't mind if they Snare or Daze it, playing 4 won't hurt your late game since it cycles, it can chain into a turn 2 StoP or Top activation or a turn 3 Wrath. It looks just tailor-made.

I think it looks interesting but I'm not sure if it is as solid as Tusker. I fear that Explore may to often be like "1G Draw a card, do nothing". Tusker also works Instant speed which can be quite relevant later when your options increase (e.g. activating Deed or not). But I have to agree that Explore is faster. I guess testing will be needed.

[Kesta]

Nice to see this deck in a Top8. Could you post a report? which MU you played?...

I like this deck a lot, but i think he's too slow in the actual metagame.

[Agent J]

As I already mentioned the matchups were quite good.

Round 1 vs. Aggro Elves:
I knew what my opponet was playing so I kept a hand with 2 Momen'ts Peace + Deed. I stalled with Moment's peace until I could wipe his board clean. With no board an no cards in hand he scooped. Game 2 was quite similar and went something like this. Moment's Peace, Witness, Moment's Peace, Flashback Moment's Peace, Deed, Liliana, win.
Round 2 vs. Merfolk:
Game 1 he mulligans down to 4 and still hasn't got any land. I win this easily. Game 2 was really weird. I start with Top, he counters with Needle on Top. Of course I draw another Top but he doesn't apply much pressure. I Sword one of his Lords. Then for a while not much happens. I take a few hits from Mutavault until I find a Vindicate for the Needle. I manage to get rid of one of the Tops with a fetchland before the next Needle hits play. Other than that he only has a Vial. Since I draw Top again I use Punishment to get rid of our 3 artifacts and play the Top. In response to the third needle Top reveals me a Witness so I let it happen and go for Witness on Vindicate. Finally I can use the top for more than 1 Turn and from then on the game went rather smoothly since he doesn't find anything significant. He scoops to hardcast Krosan Tusker.
Round 3 vs. Merfolk (U/W):
Game 1 he has a good start with Vial and Standstill. On Turn 4 I try Deed an get lucky because he does not find Force of Will (or double Daze) in his Standstill. The rest of the game I'm always in control and manage to win with Liliana Vess. Game 2 he goes for Standstill + Mutavault. The next few turns I play land and take damage from Mutavault until I'm down to 10. Then I sword his mutavault end of turn. He doesn't want to use Force of Will on it but my Deed finds catches the Force. At least he does not have another Standstill but he goes for Kitchen Finks. Since I have no good answer I drop to 7 the next turn and he adds 2 Lords. He looks really annoyed after I play Moment's Peace and it even buys me enough time to find answers to his board. The game continues for quite a while but I'm never really in danger.
Round 4 vs. (URw Fish):
We decide to draw since 3:0:2 or 3:1:1 should be enough for Top 8. We play a few quick games for fun but I didn't take any notes on them. I win 2, he wins 1 and then we both went looking for food.
Round 5 I get paired against the only 4:0 player so another ID

Quarterfinaly vs. NO Elves
Game 1 he has a really sick draw with Turn 4 about 6 or 7 Elves all 3/3. No Momen'ts Peace, no Damnation so on to Game 2. I keep a good hand with 2 Lands, Top, 2 Vindicate, Deed and Swords but can't find any land in the next 5 Turns so I stand no chance.


The decks biggest problem is the incredibly bad combo matchup. Dredge is at least possible but TES, ANT, Solidarity etc. are not your friends.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

There's always Mindbreak Trap.

Thanks for the report. I'm still not sure where to take this deck, honestly. I've been trying a few different things. I think cutting Tusker, though, weakens Top significantly, so I don't know if Explore is going to edge it out. And I don't know that there's a draw engine to replace Top outside of splashing blue.

[markbris]

any chance anyone would want to give an update on the decks matchups against todays metagame?

[Goaswerfraiejen]

There's always Mindbreak Trap.




Also Chalice of the Void, which I've come to appreciate as far more effective, since it's proactive rather than reactive (it's also more useful against Burn, if that's a consideration). As long as you're comfortable with the aggro matchup and the control mirror (which you should be), then you can load the SB against combo. Playing white gives you access to Ethersworn Canonist, which might be a better option than Gaddock Teeg. At any rate, I'd definitely opt for Chalice, and perhaps Mindbreak Trap. Along with Duress and Thoughtseize, you should have at least a fighting chance at winning 1/3.

On the other hand, it may just be better to take the loss against storm combo.

[jrsthethird]

This deck seems to be exactly what I'm looking for. Also, glad to see a list using Jund Charm, because I agree that it is underappreciated. Also, surprised to see Krosan Tusker getting play these days! I loved him back in Onslaught Block but he's been forgotten since.

So where did the name come from? And is Agent J's list a good one to pick up to try it out?

[Agent J]

Today I played the same list I posted before at our local tournament. I neither have enough notes nor enough time for a detailed report but I went 4:2 with wins against Suicide Black, Pox (thx Krosan Tusker), ANT and MBC and losses against TempoThresh and Zoo.

The result looks like the deck is only good against randomness but the matches against Thresh and Zoo were both pretty close.

Right now I'm thinking about replacing 1 Crime/Punishment or the Haunting Echoes with another Land/Top/Tusker so that the deck runs more smoothly. But besides that the list still works quite well for me.

[burigo]

This new card from Rise of the Eldrazi might work on sideboard:

3BB
Instant
Destroy all creatures with converted mana cost 3 or less. They cannot be regenerated.

And what about Weatherseed Treefolk (http://www.magiccards.info/query?q=Weatherseed+Treefolk&v=card&s=cname)? Too many G maybe?

[Agent J]

This new card from Rise of the Eldrazi might work on sideboard:

3BB
Instant
Destroy all creatures with converted mana cost 3 or less. They cannot be regenerated.

And what about Weatherseed Treefolk (http://www.magiccards.info/query?q=Weatherseed+Treefolk&v=card&s=cname)? Too many G maybe?

I don't think you want to play this over Damnation. Yes it's an Instant but it costs 1 More and can't kill things like Iona, Progenitus oder even Siege-Gang Commander.

Weatherseed Treefolk is a fun card but nothing more. It still dies to sword, Tarmogoyf will usually bigger in this matchup and as you pointed out 3 G can sometimes be a problem. If you want a win option that is a creature try Gigapede or something like that.

But this card (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=104043&d=1270785727) maybe interesting. In this kind of deck it could be even stronger than Thoughtseize because it does not cost you 2 life and will still hit almost everything you care about since you usually have better answers for cards with converted mana cost greater than 3. More or less the only problematic card I see right away is Natural Order. But I will at least test it, when it comes out...

[burigo]

yeah when I saw inquisition of koziliek, natural order was the first thing that came on my mind

[Agent J]

Hi guys, I made a few changes to my current list and tried it at our local tournament this weekend:

-2 Windswept Heath
+2 Verdant Catacombs

-2 Pernicious Deed
+1 Sensei's Devining Top
+1 Damnation

SB
-1 Duress
+1 Innocent Blood (so now I can swap all Thoughtseizes for Bloods in the Aggro Matchup)

Deed isn't that great anymore. It can't really answer Progenitus and the presence of all those Stifles and Pridemages weakens it considerably. Damnation seems to be a better sweeper at the moment.

1st Round vs. B/r Vampires
wasn't that interesting he played mostly T2 cards so it wasn't that much of a challenge. 2:0
2nd Round vs. Dream Halls
Game 1 I manage to discard his Show and Tell but he topdecks one the next turn for turn 2 Progenitus...no Damnation from my side so on to game 2. Here I can discard and extirpate Show and Tell and land a Gaddock Teeg. Game 3 I only have Gaddock Teeg but he can't counter it and he does not find Show and Tell this time. So it's 2:1 10 attacks later.
3rd Round vs. Reanimator (funniest match of the day)
I start with Forest + Top and pass the turn. He's got Underground Sea and passes. I put Verdant Catacomb and pass again. EOT he plays Mystical Tutor for Entomb and passes. In his second turn he reanimates Iona set to black since he hasn't seen any white sources yet. He looks quite sad when I send Iona on the Path to Exile. ;) Then it get's really weird. A few turns later he discards Sphinx of the Steel Wind to Careful Study but can't reanimate it. I on the other hand use Crime to get it and he looks even more sad. I manage to attack once but then he goes for Show and Tell and puts another Iona this time set to white. I put a Deed from Show and Tell and we stall with our fatties. I find a Liliana and charge it up. Finally I reach 9 Mana to deed away Iona and Sphinx and reanimate everything with Liliana. 1:0. Game to is rather boring he has second turn Iona again (set to white) and I can't find any Innocent Blood or Damnation. 1:1. Game 3 I answer two of his fatties but time's out and we have to draw.
4th Round vs. Landstill (UW with Thopter Foundry Combo)
Those games take forever and are rather boring for both of us. Game 1 he has Standstill + 3 Factories which I can't answer fast enough. Game 2 I strip him of all his counters and manage to land a Sorin who's facing Jace the Mind Scupltor but wins in the end. ;) We have about 4 minutes for game 3. He goes for Thopter-Sword combo but I have Extirpate ready so another draw.
5th Round vs. Doran Rock
Game 1 my opponent is a little manascrewed. He's only got two lands and some discard and Tidehollow Sculler which he also misplays (taking StP over Crime/Punishment) and then following it with another 2-drop the next turn. Game 2 starts better for him and I get a very strange draw with Liliana and Sorin in play by turn 7. Here he makes another questionable play. Instead of kiling one of my Planeswalkers with his Treetop Village and Knight of the Reliquary he chooses to set them both on 1 counter. I kill his knight but can do nothing about his Treetop which snatches my Sorin. I also have to sacrifice Liliana to find an answer for Treetop but then the board is still better for me with Top and 7 lands against his 4 lands and 1 card in hand. It takes a little longer but finally I find a Witness for Liliana and from then on it's an easy win.
6th Round vs. NO Bant
Game 1 he keeps a bad hand with only one fetchland and Brainstorm. For some reason he fetches for Basic Island uses Brainstorm und looks rather disappointed. My first turn play is Thoughseize which reveals me a hand with 2 Noble Hierarch, several other guys and no land at all. He doesn't have a land for his next 2 or 3 Turns and doesn't stand a chance. Game 2 is one of the "better be lucky than good" kind. He starts with Dryad Arbor and I have Thoughtseize again. But instead of taking Natural Order or at least Force of Will I decide to take a stupid Tarmogoyf. Don't know what I was thinking. He makes a Noble Hierarch turn 2 and passes. I play my second Thoughtseize which he of course simply forces. I also play Top and want to smack myself. He goes for Progenitus and passes. In my upkeep I look into the Top and can already see the Damnation. I take a hit from Progenitus and use the Damnation to get rid of him...lucky me...from then on I'm never really in danger. I kill a few more of his guys and several Witnesses later I win.

So all in all 4/0/2 which meant 3rd place out of 35 and a Bayou for me. Finally I don't have to borrow the 4th one from a friend. I really like the changes, especially the 4th Top. You always want one as early as possible and it's rarely a problem if you draw two.

[gvbarroso]

This is the list I intend to play from now on:

3 Krosan Tusker
2 Eternal Dragon
3 Eternal Witness
2 Loxodon Hierarch
2 Etched Oracle

4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress

4 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
2 Damnation

2 Liliana Vess
3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
2 Windsweapt Heath
4 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Swamp

What do you think?