[Deck] Counterbalance Control - the new Landstill? [Archive]

Iranon

07-20-2006, 07:33 AM

Apologies in advance for posting about a rather boring deck...

The card struck me as powerful (and judging from the card discussion thread, I wasn't the only one) and I wondered whether it could revive classic U/W control and give it an edge neither Standstill nor Isochron Scepter can - to my thinking, it shares some of the best features of both:

Efficient card advantage without any real investments (the library manipulation needed for it to do something reliably is a benefit in its own), and the option to lock your opponent out of the game with little backup. Granted, a Chantstick does so more quickly and reliably but it requires a far bigger investment (both in mana and in cards)

CURRENT DECKLIST

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Senseis Divining Top

4 Counterbalance
4 Counterspell

3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Forbid

4 Wrath of God

2 Meloko, the Clouded Mirror
4 Force of Will

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
6 Island
2 Plains

SIDEBOARD (needs work)

4 Arcane Laboratory
4 Pithing Needle
3 Disenchant
4 Chill

CARD CHOICES

Most of the cards are staples; this deck certainly won't win an award for originality.

Large number of Fetch Lands: The deck wants most lands to be islands to abuse Shackles, and the option to shuffle your library at will is excellent.

SDT, Brainstorm: Cheap manipulation that has excellent synergy with Counterbalance - Brainstorm probably becomes a better Dismiss for 1, SDT is downright disgusting.

Counterbalance: The very thing I'm trying to abuse.

Forbid: With the card advantage from Counterbalance, this should allow you to counter every relevant spell in the late game.

Meloku: Solid kill condition, it deserves mentioning that he has excellent synergy with forbid as well.

The deck plays quite well. SDT + Counterbalance acting as a one-sided Chalice for 1, with great additional benefits, and the white splash keeps Aggro out of your hair. Nevertheless, the deck is a little generic at the moment and might not establish control quickly enough. Any suggestions are more than welcome.

Nightmare

07-20-2006, 07:47 AM

If you want a ton of Islands on the table for Vedalken Shackles, you should be running Polluted Delta as your Fetchlands 5-8. This allows you to fetch an Island with Wasteland on the table.

Mirrislegend

07-20-2006, 09:20 AM

While White is a standard addition to control to handle creatures, I figured that Counterbalance could actually allow MUC to handle the low curve of creatures. I designed a MUC deck with a low enough curve to reliably shut down random aggro. I don't know how competitive it is, but there's enough control at those low casting costs to hurt other archetypes in this format of low curves:

Counter UnBalanced:

4 Force Spike
4 Counterspell
4 FoW
2 Daze

4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Soothsaying

4 Brainstorm
4 Telling Time

3 Cunning Wish
1 Fact or Fiction

2 Meloku the Clouded Mirror

4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
17 Island

SB:
3 Back to Basics
1 Echoing Truth
1 Brain Freeze
1 Stifle
3 Arcane Laboratory
3 Hydro Blast
3 BEB

The SB is mostly very up in the air.

Oddities:
-Soothsaying replace 1 SDT for the sake of FoW fodder.
-Telling Time was selected for the non-Brainstorm card draw slot becuase it provides excellent manipulation for Counterbalance (also sending crap to the bottom of the library, and drawing a card) at instant speed.

CleverPetriDish

07-20-2006, 09:22 AM

Can't we do better than Telling Time? How about Serum Visions?

bigredmeanie

07-20-2006, 10:20 AM

Can't we do better than Telling Time? How about Serum Visions?

Telling Time is an auto include in this deck. Along with BS and Top there should never be any moment that you can't reliable counter a spell. It also costs two which makes it better than Visions on top of the fact that visions won't help you counter spells bc it's a sorcery.

So to answer your question no we can't do better than Telling Time. Telling Time is amazing in this slot.

Maveric78f

07-20-2006, 11:55 AM

Firstly, I just think that your list (that you've already posted morevover in another topic) is too far from the original of the thread to be worth posting it here.

Secondly, the addition of white is just obviously powerful, why are you guys wanting to make a Big Blue ? I call that fanatism.

Iranon

07-20-2006, 12:38 PM

@ Mr. Nightmare: If I ran Polluted Delta in that spot, I would have to up the number of basic plains considerably which in my opinion hurts Shackles more, against Wasteland or not.

@ Mirrislegend: This pile actually started off mono-blue, but the white splash gives some much-needed creature control at a neglegible cost. Your deck is pleasantly fast for a MUC deck, but no board reset is taking a huge gamble. I'd rather not scoop to each and every first turn Aether Vial or Goblin Lackey, or to every Meddling Mage that sneaks through the counterwall (let's not even think about Madness or Affinity lest we get nightmares).
And while Back to Basics ,the only meaningful thing to lose imo, is good, the deck has enough tools to make sure your opponent never casts a meaningful spell again after the first few turns.

About more library manipulation:

Everything that's going to be useful would have to be cheap, manipulate at instant speed and give control over the top card of the library. I concur that Telling Time is probably the best thing that I didn't include - Serum Visions is a sorcery, Opt is simply not powerful enough (and 1cc isn't necessarily an advantage thanks to SDT), Impulse doesn't affect the top card, Mystical Tutor doesn't provide card advantage and it's dubious whether it will actually increase card quality when used in this function, Soldevi Excavations is an invitation to screw you over (if you feel lucky you could play it in a mono-blue version), soothsaying isn't as good as SDT in most cases and running more than 4 total is dodgy.

Predict is somewhat nice because it can get rid of junk on the top and will usually draw you 2 cards, but I think you'd want at least 10 proper library manipulations before considering actual draw. At the time being, I'd cut 1 Forbid, 1 Shackles and run 2 Telling Time before anything else if I was convinced

Eldariel

07-20-2006, 02:34 PM

Wouldn't you want to run Disrupting Shoal anyways? It's a 2-caster in terms or Counterbalance and most importantly, gives you 4 more answers to turn 1 problems. Also, don't you think you should spread the manipulation-spell manacosts a bit more? Brainstorms, Impulses (or heck, Telling Time for its ability to fool around with Counterbalance), Intuition and Cunning Wish allow spreading it over at least 3 costs. Oh, and Enlightened Tutor goes nicely with Counterbalance, and acts as a tutor for it too (and with Sensei's Torpedo, Counterbalance and Vedalken Shackles, you've got natural options for casters 1-3).

Mirrislegend

07-20-2006, 02:48 PM

I was just reposting my list mostly because its got some solid concepts for the effective abuse of Counterbalance, but is rather malleable. For example, I developed a U/W version from it. However, I wasnt too happy with that, and came to realize that U/R may be stronger, with a core of something like this:

4 FoW
4 Counterspell

4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Brainstorm
4 Telling Time

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet

Anyways, enlightened tutor is pretty friggin sweet with Counterbalance, and U/W Counterbalance may very well end up being greater than U/R just riding on the back of Enlightened Tutor.

EDIT: Also, when running Top, Brainstorm, Telling Time, and Magma Jet; Predict becomes almost as reliable as Brainstorm itself.

TheDarkshineKnight

07-20-2006, 03:08 PM

Eh, uh, Mirri? You might want to be running Fire//Ice in there.

Mirrislegend

07-20-2006, 03:20 PM

1) It's a core. The bare necessities. And not even all those are necessary probably. It is very possible to have an instance where Fire//Ice is justifiably and wisely cut.
2) Said core is already overloaded at the 2cc slot, and is busy looking for win conditions, rather than more burn.

And yet, in the end, I do find myself agreeing, and kicking myself over forgetting it as there's not much room for it at this point. But it got me thinking: how necessary is Counterspell, if these decks get so easily loaded at the 2cc slot? Fire//Ice leads the pack for replacement options, with Remand, Predict, and Standstill following.

Iranon

07-20-2006, 05:05 PM

@ Eldariel
Free counters are always nice, but I'm running too few blue spells at relevant mana costs for Disrupting Shoal to be useful.

For some reason I forgot about Shackles when considering Enlightened Tutor; that makes it rather more useful than I had first imagined, and it could also find Seals of Cleansing after boarding.

@ Mirrislegend

There was a reason I created a new thread instead of simply continuing in the Card Discussion one - talking about three or more decks that don't really play anything alike at once makes it impossible to get into any level of detail and whether you have a reset button or not changes the whole nature.
From Counterburn over classic U/W control to Fish, Counterbalance has the potential to find a home in a lot of decks, please let's not discuss all of them here.

[edited to clear up something that could have been taken as a slight]

PunkRocker1134

07-20-2006, 05:24 PM

The red deck has masive removal against Goblins at a much more relevant casting cost. Pyroclasm. It counters things with Counterbalance and kills everything when needed.

bigredmeanie

07-20-2006, 05:41 PM

Split cards have the CMC of both halves when not being cast. So revealing a Fire/Ice off Counter Balance means CC 4 not 2. Just in case someoene didn't know.

troopatroop

07-20-2006, 05:48 PM

Consider Spell Snare. When viewing it off a brainstorm or top it can be seen as a counter 1 or 2. Just an option.

michael_noah

07-20-2006, 07:14 PM

Split cards have the CMC of both halves when not being cast. So revealing a Fire/Ice off Counter Balance means CC 4 not 2. Just in case someoene didn't know.

This is questionable. Rather, I'm relatively certain it's incorrect.

505.6. Effects that ask if a split card’s characteristic (in any zone other than the stack) matches a given value get only one answer. This answer is “yes” if either side of the split card matches the given value.
Example: Void reads, “Choose a number. Destroy all artifacts and creatures with converted mana cost equal to that number. Then target player reveals his or her hand and discards all nonland cards with converted mana cost equal to the number.” If a player plays Void and chooses 1 or 4, his or her opponent would discard Assault/Battery. If the player chooses 5, Assault/Battery would be unaffected, because neither half has a converted mana cost of 5.

The wording of counterbalance makes it a little hard to decipher, but I'm pretty sure the check runs like this, given that the spell cast has casting cost 2, and the revealed card is fire/ice:

"Is the converted casting cost of the revealed card 2?"

"Yes"

Mirrislegend

07-20-2006, 07:36 PM

@ Mirrislegend

There was a reason I created a new thread instead of simply continuing in the Card Discussion one - talking about three or more decks that don't really play anything alike at once...

I'm bringing up the other versions mostly just to bring up the issue of which build would be best. Because, honestly, I dont think U/W would take that prize: the double white of WoG makes it too hard to simply splash. Im not sure between Mono U and U/R, but it doesnt seem like the answer is U/W. Thats all

Eldariel

07-20-2006, 08:31 PM

I don't know about that; UW without Wrath sounds just possible. Basically, white splash just for Enlightened Tutor and possibly StP and some enchantments (Humility much?) and perhaps a finisher (Decree of Justice much?), but staying mainly blue. Probably no StP, actually I believe a 8-free counter defense could work better against turn 1 threats (and if Enlightened Tutor is run, Needle/Seal of Cleansing MD is an easy answer to Vial). Mainly, I guess the idea is creating a control-deck that doesn't need to run many deck-specific answers in the main and can therefore combat multiple strategies simultaneously. Counterbalance goes a long way on that road, making sure that very few opposing spells actually resolve. I mean, 4 StPs, 3-4 Shackles, 3-4 Wrath just screams 'play combo to pwn me!' Now, admittedly, Counterbalance is some good vs combo (kinda like onesided Chalice of the Void that can counter bounce aimed at it), but previously, 4-card answers to combo-decks have tended to fail. Now, it might be I'm wrong and Counterbalance is powerful enough to warrant dead cards in the main, but my first instinct says that the deck might very well end up running into the Landstill-dilemma.

Oh, and in mono-blue, there's always the option of running Psychic Purge SB for additional means to combat Lackey (if it ran 4 Disrupting Shoal, 4 Force of Will and 4 SB Purges, on the draw post-SB it could stop the turn 1 Lackey some 80% of the time without mulligans. If the SB contains Needles too, it would also be pretty safe from Vials. Indeed, it would be pretty safe from Goblin brokenness overall, especially with some 20 Islands as the manabase).

But if Iranon so wills, let this thread be about the UW Counterbalance. Although, UGw, UGr, UGrw and UGb Threshold-builds are all spoken of in the same thread, I don't see that causing a problem with Counterbalance either...

Maveric78f

07-21-2006, 04:10 AM

Iranon

07-21-2006, 06:36 AM

Actually, I don't have any qualms with different colour combinations at all; discussions of which contributes more suitable anticreature cards or sideboard options are very healthy. I merely pointed out that a deck without any creature control above and beyond 8 simple spot removals would be an entirely different deck, with different problem match-ups, different needs for tweaking etc.

Maybe I made a major blunder when I decided to go for a white splash, namely assuming that a rounded-out mana curve would be desirable in combination with counterbalance (there wasn't much in blue or red I liked in the 4 mana slot. I'm not sure how Fire//Ice fits in).
Keeping the majority of spells at 1 or 2 (which would be the case in a U/R version) seems workable too if you supplant your counter potential in the late game somehow (shouldn't be a problem when running Forbid anyway).

Advantages of red:

- Magma Jet: Spot removal that has nice synergy with counterbalance
- Pyroclasm: Dirt-cheap board reset that might be enough since you are very quick at establishing control
- Shattering Spree for excellent artifact hate

Advantages of White:
- Removal that doesn't care about toughness
- Enlightened Tutor (props to Eldariel for suggesting Humility...)
- Seal of Cleansing - probably maindeckable when running ET
- Better mana base because of a u/w fetchland (especially if you want Shackles. Double white isn't more problematic than single red imo)

I'm off to do some testing...

Nightmare

07-21-2006, 07:20 AM

@ Mr. Nightmare: If I ran Polluted Delta in that spot, I would have to up the number of basic plains considerably which in my opinion hurts Shackles more, against Wasteland or not.You failed to remember that Flooded Strand still fetches those Plains. You will have to rethink the way you fetch (meaning you can't automatically fetch Island with Strand anymore) but in the long run, you will find your manabase more stable with Delta than Heath.

On the topic of revealing Split cards, when you reveal Fire//Ice to Dark Confidant, you lose four life. This is no different. Split cards, in any zone except the stack (where you chose a side to play) and when being imprinted on Scepter (where you choose a side to imprint, although you can play either) has a CMC equal to the sum of both sides.

Maveric78f

07-21-2006, 08:46 AM

Split cards, in any zone except the stack (where you chose a side to play) and when being imprinted on Scepter (where you choose a side to imprint, although you can play either) has a CMC equal to the sum of both sides.

This is not true. What does mean "except being imprinted on scepter" ? Why would there be a specific rule for scepter ?

The rule is the one I've given. You can transmute for fire/ice with Muddle the mixture, because the CMC is 2 and 2. When you ask this particular card its CMC (like confidant does), it shows that it's 2 and 2 but confidant needs an integer value and then the rule in this case is to make the sum : 4.

We agree on the conclusion but you shortcut is wrong and really misleading.

michael_noah

07-21-2006, 09:13 AM

This is not true.

QFT.

Also, read the rule I so nicely quoted, it specifically states that there are times when a question about a characteristic of a split card returns an answer about an individual side of the card. Asking whether a casting cost is equal to a certain number is one of those times.

So, since this is a thread about the deck, not a rule: Does this fact mean that using (the new) split cards in a Counterbalance deck has enough added utility to make them strong contenders?

Mirrislegend

07-21-2006, 09:40 AM

Anyways, back to the UW deck. I've been tinkering with the UR version, but keep end up getting stymied as to a sufficiently robust and durable win condition. So I went back to U/W. Not much better: we get Eternal Dragon and Exalted Angel. At least Eternal Dragon can come back from the grave.

Either way, I've come to realize that I had unearthed the issue with, not just this deck, but just about all of Legacy's straight-up control decks: there's just no win condition. We have no Simic Sky Swallower of Legacy. We're stuck with burnable, blockable, or StPable threats, that cost more mana than its worth.

Also, that last statement about cost brings up another possibility: Is Palinchron an effective win condition? Play it with FoW and Counterbalance back up, it resolves, and you immediately have the mana to save its arse from whatever you cannot counter, thanks to the untap effect.

Either way, can anyone think of something viable in U/W besides Meloku, Palinchron, Exalted Angel or Eternal Dragon?

legacyplayer0

07-21-2006, 09:48 AM

Decree of Justice, becuase it can be used on the end step, and it can be flipped off counterbalance to counter something that costs 4.

Mirrislegend

07-21-2006, 09:54 AM

Nightmare

07-21-2006, 10:18 AM

We agree on the conclusion but you shortcut is wrong and really misleading.I guess I agree here, perhaps my shortcut is misleading. Here's a more accurate way to say it:

In terms of Split Cards CMC, when you are able to differentiate between sides for a particular characteristic (examples include Imprinting an instant with CMC 2 or less; Searching for a card with CMC = X; choosing which spell to use it as, ie. on the stack; or defining it by color - Merchant Scroll, Force of Will, etc.) the choice can be made for either side of the card, and its associated CMC. This is why you can play Development on Isochron Scepter and also transmute Muddle for it. However, when no characteristic definer is given, you would use the entire card (examples include revealing it with Dark Confidant, Counterbalance, etc.; Imprinting it on Chrome Mox; Searching for it with Supply//Demand). Due to this distinction, when you reveal Fire//Ice with Counterbalance, it would recognize it as a Blue and Red Instant card, with CMC 4. Research//Development would be a Blue, Green, and Red Instant card, with CMC 7.

I hope this is a little more clear.

QFT.

Also, read the rule I so nicely quoted, it specifically states that there are times when a question about a characteristic of a split card returns an answer about an individual side of the card. Asking whether a casting cost is equal to a certain number is one of those times.

So, since this is a thread about the deck, not a rule: Does this fact mean that using (the new) split cards in a Counterbalance deck has enough added utility to make them strong contenders?While your rule is correct, your application of it is incorrect. Counterbalance does not ask if the revealed card's CMC is a specific number, it asks if the specific card's CMC is equal to the played spell's CMC. The difference is a subtle one, but an important one. If it worked the way you are applying it, it would be worded "Reveal the top card of your library. If it has a converted mana cost of 2, counter that spell." In which case, Research//Development would counter the spell, since "Research" has a CMC of 2.

Tacosnape

07-21-2006, 11:15 AM

To answer the rule question about the CC of Fire//Ice. As far as I can see everybody is wrong :
The converted cost is 2 and 2. So what does it mean ? If you have to determine the CC of Fire/Ice it's the CC of Fire + the CC of Ice, it means 2+2 = 4. But if you have to search for cards with a fix CC (with Void or a transmute card for example), the CC of Fire//Ice is still 2 and 2 and will answer yes and if Void asks Have you a 2 CC card in hand ? It's going to answer yes. If Void asks have a 4 CC card in hand ? It's going to answer no.

In the case of counterbalance, it's a 2+2=4 CC card.

Wrong.

505.6. Effects that ask if a split card’s characteristic (in any zone other than the stack) matches a given value get only one answer. This answer is “yes” if either side of the split card matches the given value.

Counterbalance asks "Is the converted mana cost of this card equal to the cost of the spell being played?" If the spell being played's cost is "2" with Fire/Ice, it checks one half, then the other. If EITHER half is equal to 2, the answer is Yes. There's no addition involved.

cupajoe

07-21-2006, 11:29 AM

Alfred

07-21-2006, 02:43 PM

Wrong.

505.6. Effects that ask if a split card’s characteristic (in any zone other than the stack) matches a given value get only one answer. This answer is “yes” if either side of the split card matches the given value.

Counterbalance asks "Is the converted mana cost of this card equal to the cost of the spell being played?" If the spell being played's cost is "2" with Fire/Ice, it checks one half, then the other. If EITHER half is equal to 2, the answer is Yes. There's no addition involved.

Wait a second, so this means that the new split cards with multiple different casting costs are really good alongside counterbalance? If this deck went the UR route, wouldn't research/development be a good card to include, seeing as it counters both 2 and 5 mana spells? Also, Development is pretty good too.

Mirrislegend

07-22-2006, 12:25 PM

Speaking of Development, could that be a viable win condition for a U/R version?

TheDarkshineKnight

07-22-2006, 03:18 PM

And we can use Fire//Ice for the 2cc slot over Counterspell. Why do need Counterspell when we have Counterbalance?

EremusDuskwalker

07-22-2006, 06:45 PM

Is the method of abusing Counterbalance you guys are using to have a varied CC base as opposed to massive amounts of library manipulation and a few higher cc spells? Also I would think that either Force Spike or Force of Will would be adequate for early game stalling. Has anyone's testing proved otherwise? Also you seem to have settled on either a red or white splash for more creature control, but did anyone really give the other colors a hard look? Black's discard can get rid of spells the opponent has you may not be able to answer with Counterbalance, and green's land fetching creatures can add to the varied cc base and pull Islands to feed Shackles as well as but blockers on the table. The work you guys are doing is great, just wanted to add my 2 cents.

Maveric78f

07-24-2006, 04:37 AM

This is from Wizards' Coldsnap FAQ

• If an opponent plays half of a split card (for example, Hit), and you reveal a split card where half of it has the same converted mana cost (for example, Hit / Run or Stand / Deliver), Counterbalance will counter the spell.

It comes at the issue a little bit sideways, but this confirms that it checks both sides rather than adding them up.....

So this means that split cards where the CMC is different in the two halves would have quite a bit of utility in a Counterbalance deck....

Ok. So I think that I have to apologize to have misleaded you. I continue to believe that the wording is strange. It hurts my logic. But, if it's only mine, who cares ? (except me)

I thought it asked the CC of the card and then compared it to the CC of the card on the stack. But actually it's asking "is there a card with the same CC in the one card revealed ?"

Mirrislegend

07-24-2006, 11:40 AM

So in the end split cards are good with Counterbalance. Ok. That's nice.

Anyways, with Decree as the kill, and not bothering w/ regular old Counterspell, maybe this is possible. I still think the deck could use more oldschool countering power tho. I've been considering Rune Snag:

Counter UnBalanced U/W:

4 Brainstorm
4 Telling Time
3 Top
4 Counterbalance

4 FoW
3 Force Spike
4 Rune Snag

4 StP
2 WoG
1 Humility
2 Enlightened Tutor

4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
2 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
7 Island
5 Plains

The 2 slots left should be either +1 Top, +1 Force Spike OR +1 Vedalken Shackles, +1 Enlightened Tutor.

Tacosnape

07-25-2006, 03:44 AM

Some other things to consider with Counterbalance that have been amazingly amazing thus far for me. I've been trying to run an Enlightened Tutor curve to where not only can Enlightened Tutor fetch me up something to counter a spell, it fetches something that continues to counter more spells.

0CC. Lodestone Bauble. This is pretty funny. It lets Enlightened Tutor counter bizarre shit like Moxen / Ornithopter / Lotus Petal that didn't hit play immediately, Cantrips when you play it, and can stick a single basic land on top of your library (if you've managed to get one in your graveyard somehow) to counter -another- 0CC spell.
1CC. Sensei's Divining Top. Yeah. It's awesome. Post E-Tutor, it can stick itself on top to counter a 1CC Spell.
2CC. Scroll Rack. AHHH! (Head explodes.) No spells for you. ever.
3CC. Eyes of the Watcher. A nice little 3-drop. Scrys on all your instants.

Mirrislegend

07-25-2006, 01:37 PM

0CC. Lodestone Bauble. This is pretty funny. It lets Enlightened Tutor counter bizarre shit like Moxen / Ornithopter / Lotus Petal that didn't hit play immediately, Cantrips when you play it, and can stick a single basic land on top of your library (if you've managed to get one in your graveyard somehow) to counter -another- 0CC spell.

Revealing a land with counterbalance counters a card w/ CMC of 0?

Nightmare

07-25-2006, 01:49 PM

It does. Cards with no mana cost have an effective cost of zero.

Mirrislegend

07-25-2006, 02:07 PM

sweet. anyways, if we are going to ditch counterspell, we're gonna need some more good 2cc spells for U/W. Scroll Rack is a good idea, especially because it allows for Pithing Needle on SDT to not cripple the deck. but what else?

Poron

07-25-2006, 02:30 PM

I'm running this list right now:

9 Island
2 Faerie Conclave
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

Mana base? Shuffle? Yes, please!! :D

I think that the shuffle ability in this deck is great but 8 fetch means too much waste of life! Some men-lands for aggro and.. as WC too.. :D

NOW: to win we need some control on what he can cast from his hand and some control for what he has already played.

this is my spell list:
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divnining Top
3 Propaganda
3 Intuition
3 Telling Time
4 Echoing Truth
4 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance
4 Mystical Tutor (the best card in this deck :D)
4 Brainstorm
1 Misdirection
1 Wash Out
1 Morphling (wc?)

Wash out is the bounce/4cc answear, tutorable too. Echoing Truth is the other answears to permanent as well as propaganda vs aggro (propaganda is also a 3cc cost so.. very usefull). Misdirection? the way!
"Oh Demonfire.. I see... 8 damage, encounterable, inprevenible.. Mystical Tutor, Misdirection. Tap Sensei's Top, draw Misdirection and play it for free"

Oooh Yes.

Caligula Superfly

07-25-2006, 02:40 PM

@Mirrislegend: Why are you ditching counterspell? I have been doing a good bit of testing and I find my 8 hard counters (counterspell, fow) to all be vital. Counterbalance is great for dealing with anything 1 or 2 cc for sure, and I have the tools to use it against 3, 4, and 5cc spells when nessisary, but almost every game I play I use hard coutners to cover my back in situations where CB can't do the job by itself.

Iranon

07-25-2006, 03:32 PM

@ Tacosnape: That's an interesting thought... how many are you running? It looks like you might risk playing with yourself when you should be doing something else (...). At least I occasionally did when I supplemented Top with Scroll Rack and Soothsaying (although Scroll Rack was pretty damn sexy. And educated as well. You've just about convinced me that I want at least one).

Lodestone Bauble seems... very very very situational. A 0 cost artifact might be good (LED cheese and other madness... no, not necessarily Madness!) but I think Mox Diamond or Seat of the Synod might actually be useful when you draw them. Seat doesn't even take up a slot. Or if you want to be a vindictive git running situational cards maindeck... Tormods Crypt. Ouch.

Eyes of the Watcher seems a little strange if you run a lot of permanent-based library manipulation, especially since its effect isn't useful with E. Tutor itself; isn't there something with a little more 'oh crap' potential at cmc 3? I can't think of anything good that's tutorable and allows you to counter things indefinitely; I like to run 2 Shackles and 2 Forbid there (Forbid is evil beyond words in this deck; you have quite a few cards that are dead in multiples anyway).
If you want to impress your opponent with the astonishing feat of turning crap into... gold-plated crap, Thalakos Mistfolk is a cute option. Jank ftw (SDT takes care of cc1, you should have a crowded cc2 slot anyway... and it's a win condition that can hide in a moderately safe place).

Tacosnape

07-25-2006, 03:33 PM

I guess my version's more Toolbox-ish control with a heavier emphasis on standard U/W Control elements.

I absolutely loathe 4 copies of SDT in this deck, especially if it's the Enlightened Tutor version. It's great, but multiple copies of it suck, and it sucks without the Counterbalance out. I'm running 1 in my build, along with 1 Soothsaying and 1 Scroll Rack to make the whole shebang pretty much immune to Pithing Needle. 4 Brainstorms is a must, obviously, and Mystical Tutor is interesting (I'm running 2, currently), but what I like about Enlightened over Mystical is the ability to not only fetch-and-counter, but to fetch something that lets you repeatedly counter.

Isochron Scepter's amusing here, too (I'm testing 1). Scepter/Mystical Tutor + Eyes of the Watcher + Counterbalance = Opponent's head explodes.

The biggest weaknesses I've found so far isn't the opponent being able to get through the Counterbalance manipulation, but being able to live through whatever they can do prior to a Counterbalance resolving.

On a side note, I've also been running one Seat of the Synod and one Ancient Den, as well as Trinket Mage, just for shits and giggles. I'm not sure if I'm going to keep this idea, though. Makes me wonder if there's an awesome Counterbalance Fish deck I should be building also. Vial Sage Owl FTW!

EDIT: @Iranon. You're right. The Bauble's been cut in my tests. I still want to cling on to one in my board, just because it cantrips so cheaply, but Seat of the Synod / Ancient Den has been strictly better. Mainly because I can't reliably get lands in my graveyard without drawing a Predict (Which everyone should be running, with all this library manipulation.)

Mirrislegend

07-25-2006, 04:30 PM

@ Caligula: cuz I'm stupid X(. I dont know. I revoke that suggestion, most definitely. However, I must say that for the while I was trying to build lists w/out Counterspell, I found those 4 extra slots to be very useful. If we can find something, in general, to totally cut, I think this could actually get somewhere for a change!

Tacosnape

07-26-2006, 01:31 AM

Has anyone else just been losing sleep at night at the thought of combining Counterbalance and Sterling Grove in a 3-Color control Enchantress deck? Maybe with Argothian Enchantress somewhere along the way for mass stupidity?

Damn you, Wizards, for printing cards that cause me to wake up in cold sweats. Stupid Counterbalance.:P

dahcmai

07-27-2006, 12:44 PM

Why not Predict and Portent? It works for thresh and can draw you into your lock faster if you don't already have it out. When the top isn't out, it's one more way to manipulate the top cards into a counter. Just a thought really, but it seemed logical.

Tacosnape

07-27-2006, 02:10 PM

Pinder

07-28-2006, 05:09 PM

... Hot damn you're right. Ok then, U/W it is! :tongue:

EDIT: Here we go. I threw this together pretty quickly but...

Counter UnBalanced U/W:
4 FoW
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force Spike

4 Brainstorm
4 Telling Time

4 StP
1 Humility
2 WoG
1 Vedalken Shackles

3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Decree of Justice

4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
1 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
7 Island
6 Plains

Notes:
-1 Humility/2 Wog: This is treating Humility like a fetchable WoG off of Enlightened Tutor

Issues with this version:
-I'm unhappy with the counter base, but the deck needs the 1 cc slot for the low cc legacy gauntlet, and cant afford another UU anyways, as:
-I'm unhappy with the mana base. The mana base is set right now slight skewed towards blue becuase of Shackles and Counterbalance. But I like my control primarily Blue, splashing other stuff. But the WW of Wog and Humility just cannot be denied.

So all in all this deck keeps screaming "I have potential" but is underminded by some very frustrating items

I've only done limited testing with this deck, but I'm still not sure why you're not running Mystical Tutor in the deck. I understand that ET fetches a wide array of varying cc stuff in here, but MT helps fetch Decree (you know, your win condition), WoG, and even FoW in a pinch. And with an SDT online (or brainstorm, or telling time), you get to nab whatever you tutored for the same turn. It looks good enough on paper to at least warrant a 2 or 3 of, don't you think?

Bane of the Living

07-28-2006, 05:51 PM

If the dedication is really focused on the top card of your library then why not try to play the Draco Explosion combo for your win condition? Red adds Fire//Ice and that card is for winners.

Pinder

07-29-2006, 12:18 PM

If the dedication is really focused on the top card of your library then why not try to play the Draco Explosion combo for your win condition? Red adds Fire//Ice and that card is for winners.

I'm not sure if he's joking, or mocking me or if he's actually serious.

I hope he's not serious.

wrshp666

07-29-2006, 02:25 PM

In my testing telling time, seemed like the weakest library manipulation card out of all the library manipulation. Telling time only looks at the top 3, and can only manipulate those, instead of a card like brainstorm that has a variety of cards you can put on top. If the 3 cards doesnt include the CC your looking for it seemed like a cantrip that can even potentially put something good on the bottom *though that doesnt matter too much because you have a mass amount of fetchlands*

I've been testing spy network in the spot of telling time, but no big results yet.

Pinder

07-29-2006, 05:44 PM

I've been looking at Spy Network as well, but I haven't done any testing. The thing about Spy Network though, is that it doesn't actually net you any card advantage. Both Brainstorm and Telling Time draw you a card, while Spy Network only lets you rearrange the top 4. Admittedly, Network lets you peek and their hand (and, I suppose, any face down creatures they have, you know, in case they play a morph creature other than Exalted Angel), and all for the low low cost of U, but that might not be enough to make up for the lack of actual card draw. Especially since Telling Time still digs 3 cards deep, which is only 1 less than Spy Network does. The question then becomes 'is digging an extra 1 down really worth giving up a draw?'

I suppose further testing might tell...

wrshp666

07-29-2006, 07:18 PM

The thing about telling time is that though you do dig 3 cards, and net a card out of it, you can only put 1 of those back on top, and with counterbalance on the table, and your opponent playing a spell, you have to have the same casting cost in your top 3 cards, which is why obviously brainstorm is much superior. Digging 4 cards, peeking and looking at their top card let's you set up the rest of your spy network *the top 4 cards* and for the cost of U.

And yes i do agree, looking at those whipcorder's that are morphed is so "tech" :P

Pinder

07-29-2006, 08:48 PM

And yes i do agree, looking at those whipcorder's that are morphed is so "tech" :P

And any optimal goblin build is obviously running Skirk Marauder :tongue:.

Honestly, I like telling time because of the card advantage. Of course, in a a deck so focused around the top card of your library, perhaps having access to more cards on top of your library is actually better than having access to more cards in your hand. Who knows, but it definitely warrants some testing.

wrshp666

07-30-2006, 01:52 AM

And any optimal goblin build is obviously running Skirk Marauder :tongue:.

Can't forget those foothill guides :p

On a more serious note, does anyone think predict is worth it? you're never NOT going to know what's on top so *shrug* i've been running 2 but havent thought too much about it.

I wish portent was an instant *sigh*

Pinder

07-30-2006, 05:38 PM

Can't forget those foothill guides :p

On a more serious note, does anyone think predict is worth it? you're never NOT going to know what's on top so *shrug* i've been running 2 but havent thought too much about it.

I wish portent was an instant *sigh*

Me too. 4 MD quicken, anyone :laugh:?

As for predict, it would be some awesome card draw, I'll admit, but it doesn't do much for the top of your library, which is what this deck is all about. I guess it comes down to whether cards in hand or cards on top is better for this deck.

Caligula Superfly

07-30-2006, 07:08 PM

Ive been liking predict. It fits right into the low curve, and its my only other form of real card advantage without a counterbalance in play. It also digs really nice, letting you ditch something you dont want and draw so you have fresh cards for brainstorms/top.

Maveric78f

07-31-2006, 05:15 AM

I really, really love condescend in that deck, much more than telling time which is crap even in standart.

And instead of that combination :
1 Humility
2 WoG
1 Vedalken Shackles

I would play :
2 Moat
2 Vedalken shackles

Then the kill I would choose, would be eternal dragon which would enable you to play 1 land less and 1 enlightened tutor in addition.

Caligula Superfly

07-31-2006, 11:17 AM

Hmm, an interesting idea I must admit (you can play it for 0 and still counter the spell), but the real gift of the other manips is that they either draw a card, or don't cost you a card. Thats what gives you the nuts advantage with counterbalance. Its probably an improvement from telling time I must admit, but Im not so convinced that a nother manip ability even needs to go there.

Maveric78f

07-31-2006, 11:38 AM

And if you want a full counterbalance lock, play mystical tutor*4 and Life // Death*1. It's like a chalice with 1 and 2 counters only for the opponent. It's very harmful in the metagame.

Tacosnape

07-31-2006, 12:58 PM

I've been loving Condescend. I cut Predict for it and haven't gone back.

Spy Network blows. If it's going to mess with the top of your library and not cantrip, it better be Enlightened or Mystical Tutor. Preferrably Enlightened. I still don't like Mystical in this deck.

Telling Time blows, too. It's reaching its fingertips to touch the invisible line of awesome and coming up about an inch short, which leaves it still being pretty bad.

Mirrislegend

07-31-2006, 02:37 PM

I've been loving Condescend. I cut Predict for it and haven't gone back.

Are you running any Mana Leaks or Rune Snags? If not, that may be why Condescend is so good for you: your counter base is probably just a bit too small. However, I do see the advantage of just casting it for U to scry, in emergencies. Still, I'm not sure that flexibility justifies the large mana committment for Condescend.

I still don't like Mystical in this deck.

I agree. I run 1, because I'm toolboxing through Cunning Wish, and want access to it more readily, and running a Decree of Justice kill. Otherwise, stick to better topdeck manipulation.

I've run into one real issue recently: Humility vs WoG. Can/Should they both be played in the same (control) deck? What's the right combination in this deck, which runs both Mystical Tutor and Enlightened Tutor?

Mirrislegend

08-03-2006, 09:21 AM

Orchard

08-03-2006, 01:54 PM

quicksilver

08-03-2006, 01:59 PM

Am I missing something? Does this list have any win condition?

Cunning Wish for brainfreeze of course. You wait till you both have like 15 cards in your library, then you use a bunch of cantips after they played spells and wish for brainfreeze to kill them. I wouldn't recomended this as the only win condition, but it is a win condition. Also haveing your opponent scoop is a win condition.

Mirrislegend

08-03-2006, 02:47 PM

Wow. Stupid of me. My list does run a win, indeed. XP. Edited

Also, Vedalken Shackles is such a house that I'm considering bringing at least 1 Enlightened Tutor (mebe for a Cunning Wish) back into the MD to fetch it.

Aggro_zombies

08-07-2006, 12:31 PM

You know, with all of this library manipulation, I'm wondering if black wouldn't be a viable option for a splash so you could get access to Bob. You'd have stuff like Infest for board control, additional disruption elements (in the form of discard), and graveyard hate for decks like Thresh and combo (not that you have too much of a hard time against these decks anyway). It just seems like this deck is vulnerable to losing to decks that don't live by the curve (Goblins) and fast aggro decks (AS, Zoo and co, Suicide Black/Red Death, etc). Also, having done some limited testing against Homebrew with my experimental UB version of the deck (patterned off of Jedi.dec), I can tell you that all of the disruption in Homebrew is terrible for you, Counterbalance or no.

Mirrislegend

08-07-2006, 03:34 PM

UB is fine. The Jedi.dec shell is the issue. This deck is very resilient, when the list is focused and tight (which is unlikely in a shell of another deck), thanks to Counterbalance: one's hand is less of an issue than one's topdeck. As far as pre-Counterbalance-and-Top-in-play, this deck doesnt suffer at the hands of Homebrew's disruption any more than any other deck.

Of course, this is considering that one is actually getting hit with disruption. Which, between Condescend and FoW, shouldnt be happening before Counterbalance, and afterwards, this deck's curve should handle itself.

Aggro_zombies

08-07-2006, 11:51 PM

UB is fine. The Jedi.dec shell is the issue.
Hmmm...some guidance then, sensei? I'd like to keep it UB.

Haunter.dec version 4.1 (as yet untested)

4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Dimir Cutpurse

4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Rune Snag
2 Remand

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Diabolic Edict
2 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Chrome Mox
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
7 Island
3 Swamp
2 Wasteland

SB:
4 Engineered Plague
4 Echoing Truth
3 Darkblast
3 Scroll Rack
1 Diabolic Edict

I'm not sure where to go from here. I can say, however, that if it dodges early disruption it is a house to play against. Any suggestions?

Mirrislegend

08-08-2006, 10:59 AM

How is normal Jedi.dec vs Homebrew?

Also, maybe you should be running some evasion creatures if Jitte is your big removal item.

You need to decide if this deck will be aggro-control or control. Because that list is either an aggro-control deck that wishes it was control. Or a control deck pretending to be aggro-control. Either way, its indecisive and thus unfocused

Tacosnape

08-08-2006, 01:14 PM

I've actually now shifted away from the Enlightened Tutor build.

Now I'm running a version with Mystical Tutors and Isochron Scepter (Scepter/Mystical = Awesome tutoring powers + doubles as Scepter-Counter with the balance on the board), along with Brainstorm and Magma Jet. Counterbalance makes Toolbox No-Stick decks not blow, amazingly enough.

My question is, what are some really powerful 3-CMC Instant/Sorcery spells? I lack a lot in the tutoring department there, making my Faerie Stompy matchup really kind of difficult. So far I've got a single copy of Electrolyze and Dissipate (Take that, Life from the Loam!) maindecked. Any suggestions?

Aggro_zombies

08-08-2006, 03:31 PM

How is normal Jedi.dec vs Homebrew?
Dunno. I haven't tried it out yet, although I assume it would be fairly decent just eyeballing the lists in the Jedi thread.

Also, maybe you should be running some evasion creatures if Jitte is your big removal item.
That's true. I originally had Shadowmage Infiltrator in here but reluctantly gave his slot to the Cutpurses because they provide an additional element of disruption and 2-power to boot. I think I might switch back, though.

You need to decide if this deck will be aggro-control or control. Because that list is either an aggro-control deck that wishes it was control. Or a control deck pretending to be aggro-control. Either way, its indecisive and thus unfocused
The original idea I was gunning for was aggro-control, but I think I'm a few men too short to adequately fit that role. I might drop the Remands entirely as well as switch over to Shadowmage Infiltrator and maybe add some Dimir Infiltrator too...it isn't the bestest evasion creature ever, but it's the only one that tutors for Counterbalance, Jitte, Scroll Rack out of the board, and removal (Edict and Echoing Truth). And, if I feel like it, I can hardcast him and beat down. He's still a perfectly legitimate target for Jitte.

Soooo...with that said, what should I change to go more of a dedicated aggro-control route?

Mirrislegend

08-08-2006, 06:23 PM

SuckerPunch

08-09-2006, 06:30 PM

First, I have to say, I love counterbalance. It's the most powerful card printed in a long time.

So much so that I want to run a Misd or two to protect it.

Mirrislegend

08-10-2006, 12:01 PM

As opposed to all the countermagic protecting it?

Maveric78f

08-11-2006, 04:41 AM

Definitely more men. Both Infiltrators are worth considering.

Counter Package for aggro-control should be no more than:
4 Counterbalance
4 FoW
4 *
*= your choice of 4x Rune Snag or a mix of Remand and/or Counterspell and/or Condescend

And it shouldnt have trouble with Zoo or Sui becuase those decks do live by the curve, they live by 2cc or less. Which Counterbalance should totally pwn

Your counterspells have (almost) only 1 concern : protect your counterbalance. Once counterbalance has hit the ground, all you countermagic will be useless, as counterbalance will do all the job itself.
That means that I finally think that condescend, which is a descent card once counterbalance is in play should not be played and that daze is better, even if I'm usually not a fan of daze.

About the creatures, I agree with the dark confidant but I don't like the others. Hippy is just too black. Black should remain a splash. And cutpurse is just bad. I would prefer some shadowmage infiltrators which is good with jitte. Actually, I don't see the point in discarding the opponent in late match...

The main problem of this deck is to deal with the opponent's creatures. I don't have any clue for that...

Mirrislegend

08-11-2006, 03:29 PM

Your counterspells have (almost) only 1 concern : protect your counterbalance. Once counterbalance has hit the ground, all you countermagic will be useless, as counterbalance will do all the job itself.
That means that I finally think that condescend, which is a descent card once counterbalance is in play should not be played and that daze is better, even if I'm usually not a fan of daze.

About the creatures, I agree with the dark confidant but I don't like the others. Hippy is just too black. Black should remain a splash. And cutpurse is just bad. I would prefer some shadowmage infiltrators which is good with jitte. Actually, I don't see the point in discarding the opponent in late match...

The main problem of this deck is to deal with the opponent's creatures. I don't have any clue for that...

@ countermagic usage: totally not true. Counterbalance cant handle everything. Tho I must admit, it comes rather close :D. Anyways, you still need to control the board for before a Counterbalance, vs stuff that you dont have the CMC to handle, and until you get a Counterbalance out. And, given the MWS shuffler, that could possibly be NEVER.

@ creature selection: maveric hit the nail on the head as far as the U/B aggro control version

@ dealing w/ creatures: if you're referring to the U/B list then yes, his removal is a bit on the light side. however, U/W Counterbalance Control packs WoG, StP, and sometimes Vedalken Shackles, in addition to massive counterspelling power. U/R has burn, in its bajillion different, but nonetheless delicious, flavors... ftw :P

Aggro_zombies

08-11-2006, 06:56 PM

About the creatures, I agree with the dark confidant but I don't like the others. Hippy is just too black. Black should remain a splash. And cutpurse is just bad. I would prefer some shadowmage infiltrators which is good with jitte. Actually, I don't see the point in discarding the opponent in late match...

The main problem of this deck is to deal with the opponent's creatures. I don't have any clue for that...
Well, I switched the Cutpurses for Shadowmage Infiltrator and shifted some other stuff around to fit in four Dimir Infiltrator as a tutor for important cards and a lovely target for Jitte. But I like Hyppie - the random discard is so good. If I dropped it, what would i replace it with? Nothing else really jumps out at me. Maybe if this was casual, I'd run Blizzard Specter and have something in the four cc slot, but I don't think he makes the cut in constructed...

As for removal...yeah, I wish I had more maindeck, but I don't know how to fit it in. Echoing Truths maindeck would be so hot, but...meh.

Mirrislegend

08-19-2006, 11:35 AM

I'm not sure if this should be a new thread or not. However, I have yet to do any real testing, so I'm just gonna stick this piece here.

An old pet deck of mine is Sensei Sensei. I always have run the kill of Helm-Top-Top-Brain Freeze, rather than the Future Sight one. However, if you dont have the Helm and Freeze, you tend to get frustrated at having 4x Top in your deck. Since Counterbalance also begs for Tops, and both decks work well in U/W Control shells, I hybridized them. Counter UnBalanced + Sensei.dec =

Sensei's UnBalanced Top:

Manipulation/Filtering/Tutoring:
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
3 Cunning Wish

Counterspells:
4 Force of Will
4 Rune Snag
4 Counterbalance

Creature Control:
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
1 Vedalken Shackles

Combo-riffic Miscellaneous:
2 Helm of Awakening
1 Brain Freeze

Sideboard:
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Brain Freeze
1 Argivian Find
1 Echoing Truth
1 Stifle
3 Disenchant
3 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Hydroblast
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Notes:
-I originally designed the deck with Rune Snag so as not to strain the mana base. However, said mana base just fell together to easily support UU and white. So Rune Snag will probably be replaced with Counterspell
-I'm considering -1 Hydroblast, +1 Gilded Light or Abeyance in the SB. I cant figure out which, if either.
-This deck will always take the control role. ALWAYS. Counterbalance allows it to stare down any other control deck effectively (except maybe a pure Counterbalance deck). It just takes its time and easily sculpts the perfect hand to go off with plenty of protection.

Aggro_zombies

09-03-2006, 07:07 PM

Hmmm, not sure if I should necro this or just start a new thread, but I guess I'll revive this thread. Okay, so I've mostly given up on Haunter due to my inability to get the deck to perform well in aggro-control mode (Thresh is waaay better) and my inability to get it to work at all in a Tog oriented build. So, I've switched to a Blue/Red version of the deck in a Landstill-ish format. However, I'm still designing the list (no testing as of yet) and I want to fit a few things in, but I'm not sure how to make room for them. Here's the deck as it stands:

Library Manipulation:
4 Magma Jet
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Counters:
4 Rune Snag
4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance

Burn:
4 Electolyze
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Pyroclasm

Other Draw:
3 Fact or Fiction

Mana Base:
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Faerie Conclave
4 Volcanic Island
3 Mountain
6 Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire

SB:
3 Stifle
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Disrupt
3 Meltdown
2 Pithing Needle

Card Choices (Maindeck):
Magma Jet: vesatility is always a plus, and burn on a library manipulator is especially hot. Countering your spell with Counterbalance and hitting you for two is awesome.

Brainstorm and Top: not much to say here, pretty standard.

Rune Snag: I was originally thinking Counterspell, but this is a bit more splashable and it's better than Mana Leak late game. I might switch over to Counterspell if it looks like I don't usually have trouble getting double-blue. I mean, I am running Counterbalance.

Electrolyze: I wanted to put Fire/Ice in here, but...I ended up going with this because it fills the three casting cost slot and is Fire-ish with draw attached. I don't like it much, but it may turn out to be good in testing.

Fact or Fiction: Fills in the 4 cc slots and draws stuff. I'm not sure this is that great though - I might change this to Thirst for Knowledge so I can fit Fire/Ice in instead of Electrolyze.

Stuff I Want to Add:
Fire/Ice: it's so...good. I mean, it burns things, it taps things and draws cards, it's an instant...what's not to like?

Stifle: one of the biggest problems I'm afraid of here is Wasteland. My clock is rather slow, and getting one of my few manlands Wasted is a big setback. Also, it's so good in other applications (anti-storm, anti-fetchland, anti-...um, ability).

Crucible of Worlds: Not something I need maindeck, but always handy to have against decks packing land destruction.

Bounce: Repeal and Echoing Truth are the ones I really want in here, but that split-second Boomerang in Time Spiral (costed at 1UU) would fill the 3-cc slot and is uncounterable. I need to have a backup plan for dealing with problematic enchantments and artifacts in case I can't counter them for whatever reason. Meltdown serves to deal with the latter, and is especially useful for dealing with multiple Pithing Needles or loads of AS equipment. Still, I have no way to deal with something like Solitary Confinement, short of countering it.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

MasterBlaster

09-03-2006, 08:25 PM

If Electrolyze ends up being sub-par you might want to consider replacing it with Serendib Efreet. It still fills the same 3cc slot and is also a good beatstick that dodges burn(including your own Pyroclasms) and chumps Goblins.

AngryTroll

09-06-2006, 03:54 AM

Ok. Here's the list I've been running, with a solid degree of success.

Counter Un-Balanced.dec:

Draw/Tutors/Filtering:
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
2 Mystical Tutor
3 Cunning Wish

Creature Removal:
2 Wrath of God
3 Swords to Plowshares

Counters:
4 Counterbalance
4 Counterspell
4 Condescend
4 Force of Will

Win Condition:
2 Decree of Justice
1 Vedalken Shackles

Lands:
10 Island
4 Tundra
3 Hallowed Fountain
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta

Sideboard:
1 StP
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Stifle
1 Echoing Truth
1 Brain Freeze
3 Disenchant
3 Hydroblast
3 Blue Elemental Blast
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There are about 17 1-drop spells in here, but only 8 2-drop spells. You do have the 2 Mystical Tutors, which means you really have 10 2-drops, and you have the Tops and Brainstorms, but it still feels really 1-heavy. There are only the 3 Cunning Wish and 1 Shackles in the 3 spot, and only the Decrees in the four. I do like the list so far, though.

I would be happier running more Wraths mainboard, as well as a few more spells that cost two to help you find them when you need them. Mana Leak or Rune Snag helps smack things that cost three (Deed, Troll Ascetic, Sword of Fire and Ice, and Cunning Wish all spring to mind as cards we want to counter at 3), but would be better as hard counters.

Running an answer faster then Cunning Wish for Aether Vial is probably an excellent idea. There is always the option to run Disenchant in the 2cc slot, as it hits Vial, Lightning Rift, Pithing Needle, Survival, Jittes, and other problematic cards that can come down before countermagic comes online. I am not thrilled with having to run Disenchant main, but an opening play of Aether Vial by Goblins will quickly spell game over if you do not have Force of Will. As we all know, even Wrath or Mystical Tutor in hand will often not be enough to answer Goblins.

Also, an opening play of Nimble Mongoose will always be an unwelcome surprise. What about Powder Keg? It costs 2, blows up Pithing Needles, Vials, Lackeys, and Mongeese pretty fast (not as fast as we want, but still...), and does not stress the color base. Am I missing any great things for these spots?

Mirrislegend

09-06-2006, 08:26 AM

I feel a need to remind you, AngryTroll, that I'm playing something closer to the more recent decklist I posted. If people are still interested in this deck I'll gladly share it (right now I'm too busy :tongue: )

Poron

09-06-2006, 09:21 AM

yes, share it please. i'm playing too a almost mono-U balance so we can check our decklists.

Mirrislegend

09-06-2006, 11:48 AM

Hate to break it to ya Poron, but i dont think mono-blue will cut it. Splashing red or white is going to help a lot.

Speaking of which...
@ Aggro_Zombies: I like your U/R list a lot. But it keeps nagging me that there must be a better kill than manland beatdown. Any other ideas?

Anyways, my current list:

Sensei's UnBalanced Top:

Manipulation/Filtering/Tutoring:
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
3 Cunning Wish

Counterspells:
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
1 Dissipate
4 Counterbalance

Creature Control:
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
1 Vedalken Shackles

Combo-riffic Miscellaneous:
2 Helm of Awakening
1 Brain Freeze

Land:
3 Plains
8 Island
3 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra

Sideboard:
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Brain Freeze
1 Argivian Find
1 Echoing Truth
1 Stifle
3 Disenchant
3 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Hydroblast
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Notes:
-I know the large presence of UU in casting costs is a bit intimidating, but its easy to handle. The mana base is designed to facilitate it, fetching white in the late game/in emergencies, while maintaining the supply of blue mana, thus keeping your gameplan intact and smoothly running.
-I'm considering -1 Hydroblast, +1 Gilded Light or Abeyance in the SB. I cant figure out which, if either.
-I auto-loose to Goblins :cry: Hopefully this is just a result of my playskill, as I get so few competent Goblins players to test with that I really have no idea how to play against it.
-Looking at AngryTroll's comments in relation to this list, I realized that they all still fully apply. And they're damn good ideas. Thx for the feedback. I'll get right on it
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

EDIT: This is the list I'm testing with right now. It incorporates many of the recent suggestions. But the list is really tight and there isnt room for much.

Sensei's UnBalanced Top:

Manipulation/Filtering/Tutoring:
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Cunning Wish
1 Mystical Tutor

Counterspells:
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
1 Dissipate
4 Counterbalance

Creature Control:
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
2 Powder Keg

Combo-riffic Miscellaneous:
2 Helm of Awakening
1 Brain Freeze

Land:
3 Plains
8 Island
3 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra

Sideboard:
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Brain Freeze
1 Argivian Find
1 Echoing Truth
1 Stifle
3 Disenchant
3 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Hydroblast

Notes:
-I'm undecided about how to split the WoG/Powder Keg slots. I started with a 3/1 split, but I think 2/2 will end up being best.

Poron

09-07-2006, 06:19 AM

Oh! your idea to add a storm combo as wc is nice! This is my list

Lands:
2 Polluted
4 Flooded
10 Isl
2 Tundra

Creatures
3 Phyrexian War Beast

Spells
1 Dissipate
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Diivning Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Echoing Truth
4 Counterspell
1 Wash Out
1 StP
1 Enlightned Tutor
2 Rushing River
1 Psionic Blast

I usually take out combo (balance + top) on 3th or 4th turn then with mishra and phyrexia I try to get a control of creatures (using my 6 bounces is easy..) and then I win by attacking.

PWB has been a good choice imho because I improve considerely my Lands Matchup beaing able to block Mishras and Treetop Village and the 3 CMC allows me to have a right curve of mana for counterbalance.

Once I get the combo online I usually clean the board if a Wash Out , but often Counterspell and Force of Will, used during first turns, let the opponent have just few permanent down (so the bounce time is quite an easy moment).

I have lost just few matches in my tests (not in competitive meta..) but I think this can work! Something you wanna say me? :P

Mirrislegend

09-07-2006, 11:26 AM

@ Poron: Your list has 18 lands and nothing with the word "Mishra" in the title, despite the fact that you keep referring to such a card. I'm going to assume that you also meant to add in 4x Mishra's Factory.
Anyways, how is it working with 1 StP and 1 Enlightened Tutor? And with a full set of Mystical Tutor? Because Mystical Tutor is way to slow to run a playset, and StP and Enlightened Tutor are much to vital to run only 1-ofs.

Poron

09-07-2006, 12:32 PM

Yes, sorry. I run 22 lands, 4 of which are Mishra's Factory.

1 StP is there to remove what I can't bounce or anyway what I can't defend or what regenerates. (ex: River Boa, Eternal Dragon, nantuko monastery..stupid nantuko monastery grrr) and Enl. Tutor is there for "the second" combo piece (we have always one: Top or Balance..) and ET is always tutorale by Mystical Tutor. Anyway I often have a 3th turn (about..)
eot: Mystical, Brainstorm, Enlightned Tutor. So turn 4 sensei + balance online with 2 untapped.
Anyway yes both StP and ET are strong cards which can be stronger in multiple copies, but i already run 14 cards which CMC is 1 so..