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SuckerPunch
07-16-2006, 07:58 PM
The deck is similar to 5/3 but with a black splash to gain better creatures and dark ritual which is a huge boon.

This below is a deck based on a list by a lolosoon...

Blumpkin ;)

//Mana
9 Swamp
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wastelands
4 Mox Diamond
4 Dark Ritual

//Threats
4 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Phyrexian War Beast
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Phyrexian Scuta
4 Su-Chi

//Disruption
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Priest of Gix/Jitte/Persecute/Crucible of Worlds/Tangle Wire

The initial testing results have been solid. Chalice and Trinisphere owned a lot of players on MWS. The clock is extremely fast, fast enough to race and simultanously disrupt solidarity with a decent hand.

Here's some additional more organized testing results...


I've tested all matchups with 10 matches, with no SB.

Here the Gauntlet :
Ugw Threshold
Vial Goblins
Deadguy Ale
Mono-W Angel-Stompy
Wu Angel-Stompy
RG Zilla Stompy
Solidarity
IggyPop
Burn
Rifter
Belcher


Threshold : 60 / 40 : Favorable
Note : The build was running 3-4 basic lands

All resides in Mulliganing correctly. Thresh trying to get Needle, Mage, FoW or Daze while you want Chalice, 3Sphere, Wasteland and (sometimes) Crucible.
They can't counter all your lockpieces all the time, and with the manabase, playing around Daze is easy.
Chalice @1 owns the deck, early 3sphere slow it enough to roll over them with 3/4, 4/4 and 5/5 beasts. Which are better than 3/3 'gooses and 4/4 bears.
Needle on SoFI and Wasteland is sometimes painful. Maybe dropping the SB Defense Grid for Powder Kegs would help.
Same goes with the Tormod's Crypts. Leyline of the Void could be an efficient replacement.
I think the red splash can really be more painful than the white one, mainly due to Burn vs Negators and Fire//Ice tapping your 3spheres at EOT.

When going 1st, the win ratio up to 75 / 25, when going second, it drops to 50 / 50.


Goblins : 50 / 50 : Debatable
Note : White Splashed

When going 2nd, Vial then wasteland/port hurts. But it's the same for any decks huh ?
With no creature removal, your only response of a turn 1 Lackey is a fast beatstick, or Factories. Which can be hard to obtain sometimes.
Even with vial out, 3sphere slow they down enough (they can't vial out a ringleader then cast Warchief + Piledriver x2 on the same turn). Goblins minus Speed equal not that good.
In this particuliar matchup, I think 3sphere > Chalice.
When equipped, SoFI can end the game quickly, if they can't set an Alpha Strike ready for the next turn (see 3sphere or low threat count).
But, really, if they get the mad start, it's really hard to race them without removal. Luckily, we have E.Plagues SB (and Needles for Vial).

When going 1st, the win ratio up to 60 / 40, when going second, it drops to 40 / 60.


B/w Homebrew : 50 / 50 : (6 matches out of 10)
Note : Netdecked the Pikula's one that made #2 @Philly

Their disruption really hurt, especially Vindicate which can gets rid of your lockpieces MD. But crucible helps a lot vs heavy LD.
Negator rocks in this matchup and SoFI can take care of all their li'l beasts.
Sure, Jittes could be better, but vs Deadguy Ale, you really want to drop that Chalice @2, more that @1 imho.

I've still have to complete my playtest vs this matchup, but without Vials/Lackey or Daze/FoW, it seems that going 1st or not isn't revelant.


Here's a second variant that I've recently developed but is still in need of some refinement...

Ponza Stax

//Mana
1 Swamp
2 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bad Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wastelands
4 Mox Diamond
4 Dark Ritual

//Threats
4 Stone Rain
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Phyrexian Scuta
2 Phyrexian War Beast
3 Avalanche Riders
3 Covetous Dragon

//Disruption
4 Chalice of the Void (Could be Tangle Wire)
3 Trinisphere
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives

This variant is designed to add in some land destruction ala Stone Rain and Avalance Riders to supplement your Crucibles, Trinispheres and Wasteland, to severaly impede your opponent's development.

The manabase requires a bit of tweaking still.


Outdated original post...

Since the B/R Aggro deck top 8ed both days of D4D, I thought the time is ripe to unveil the pet deck that I've been working on for the past two months or so.

Mana
18 Swamp
2 Cabal Pit
4 Dark Ritual

Disruption
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Hypnotic Spectar
4 Smother (Or 2 Jitte/2 Smother)
4 Contagion

Beatdown
4 Sarcomancy
4 Dark Confidant
2 Nantuko Shade/Wretched Anurid
2 Flesh Reaver
4 Priest of Gix
4 Phyrexian Negator

Discussion etc. blah blah blah....

MasterBlaster
07-16-2006, 08:26 PM
Are there ever any times when Priest of Gix comes into play and you can't use the mana?

Also since how this is a black deck I have to ask, why no Confidant?

SuckerPunch
07-16-2006, 08:31 PM
It's fairly rare. You almost always have something (Jitte) to cast or a Shade to pump. And it's explosive nature combined with a turn one Dark Ritual more than makes up for the times where it fizzles.

If you want Confidant, by all means run it, in Mesmeric Fiends slot. Anywhere else, Confidant actually slows you down.

That's what my configuration for a while was as well. And like I already mentioned, I haven't been 100% satisfied with Fiend.

MasterBlaster
07-16-2006, 08:52 PM
A few more questions.

What turn does the deck win when you goldfish?

What matchups have proven to give this deck problems/an easy kill?

SuckerPunch
07-16-2006, 09:11 PM
With a god hand, Ritual, Gix, 2/2 Zombie, Reaver, Reaver,

or Ritual, Gix, Gix, and some other creatures it gold fishes turn 3.

But a turn 4 win is more likely, and without ritual it can take as long as turn 5-6, but with your disrupiton, you can often slow down Solidarity enough to still race them.

Still I always recommend that you mulligan till you get a Ritual in hand against solidarity to ensure that you can race them.

The biggest problem matchup I've encountered is Angel Stompy. It's first strikers neuter some of your creatures slowing down your kill enough that their equipment starts taking a toll, and Wave or Angel finish you off.

The best thing about this deck is that you can mulligan to go for explosiveness via Ritual against combo, burn etc, and go for a Vial to win vs. counter heavy and tempo decks, or just drop a Negator or Zombie/Reaver turn one on them and go to town.

laststepdown
07-16-2006, 09:20 PM
I think that Negator should definitely come out, or be only a 2-of. while it's good against combo, any deck with a removal spell(or creatures that deal damage...) will make this a bad thing for you to cast. In type 2 this is known as Helixing an Avatar of Discord. I would like to think this is better served as hyppie(nice with 4 rits and 4 gix), wretch, or even hymn to tourach/duress.

SuckerPunch
07-16-2006, 09:30 PM
Negator is 100% needed in this deck. If you aren't convinced of this. I reference you to this link... http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3795&page=3

Yes a deck with 4x Negator top 8ed at two large tournaments back to back. And there are many questions about Negator that are covered and explained there.

I find that Negator works even better here, as this deck is tuned for an even faster and more explosive kill. And at worst case, you can always sac Negator to Cabal Ritual in response.

Shysh
07-16-2006, 09:54 PM
I highly recommend Black Knight. Protected from Swords, and takes on plenty of Goblins (Piledriver cries).

SuckerPunch
07-16-2006, 11:12 PM
Thanks for the suggestion.

But Black Knight is good against Angel Stompy and semi-decent against goblins though I think Shade is still better, but it sucks against every thing else.

It's too slow a card, and I wouldn't run it for the sake of a single matchup that's not really all that common a deck anyways.

What I am wondering about is Aether Vial. It's great but I am also considering running Ancient Tomb in it's place to support faster Negators and more equipment ala Fairie Stompy and Angel Stompy.

Of course, a lot more things about the deck would change, it's forsaking of Hypnotic Spectar, Hymn and Sinkhole for Negator, Equipment and Priest of Gix as well as it's name would make more sense. But I am not completely sure if I want to make that leap yet.

Shysh
07-17-2006, 12:04 AM
But Black Knight is good against Angel Stompy and semi-decent against goblins though I think Shade is still better, but it sucks against every thing else.

It's too slow a card, and I wouldn't run it for the sake of a single matchup that's not really all that common a deck anyways.

Swords is run in Deadguy and Threshold, not only Angel Stompy. Anyways, I would never suggest Black Knight in a deck like Suicide or the like, but I assumed he'd have a good spot in the deck for his protection and first strike (which is nice against Troll, goblins, etc). But that's just my opinion.

Anyway, what are your feelings on the split of Flesh Reaver and Wretched Anurid? Which are you more inclined to run, and why?

SuckerPunch
07-17-2006, 12:10 AM
I see your point, Black Knight has a lot of advantages in this format. But I think it's actually more suitable for a deck like Sui Black or Pikula which are slower and more controlling, than a deck like this that's designed for speed.

I lean heavily towards Reaver and it's really the only card I used. I love the 4 toughness and the fact that it helps get me a turn 3 goldfish versus combo. But I would likely recommend Anurid if your meta is heavy is Goblins.

Drathro
07-17-2006, 09:52 AM
Cabal Therapy - The most broken disruption piece in any black deck that runs creatures. In response to one of your creatures dying, you can replay from the graveyard to hit them again.

Unfortunately, I suspect this is going to hurt your results with this deck quite a bit: Cabal Therapy (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Cabal_Therapy) can only be flashed back at sorcery speed, because it is a sorcery. You can't play it from the graveyard in response to one of your creatures being destroyed.

Myrrodin
07-17-2006, 10:20 AM
Yeah, Negator really needs to come out of the deck, and to back myself up, here's some reasons

1. If you haven't read Drathro's post yet, please do so, he is 100% correct. Therapy is a sorcery, so you can't sac your Negator in response to hefty damage.

2. The reason B/r Suicide (Red Death) can play Negator is because of how the deck is built. Look at the disruption base (Duress, Hymn, Sinkhole, Wasteland). Duress gets rid of the biggest threat that it can hit, which may be hitting burn to keep your Negator on the field. Hymn also removes threats, but can hit lands as well. Sinkhole and Wasteland both attempt to induce mana screws, and, when coupled with a lucky him, can really leave an opponent gasping for mana. Now, on top of this, Red Death runs plenty of burn to keep creatures out of the way. Now look at your deck. You run 8 discard spells, which can remove threats to your Negator, but the Fiend is not the strongest discard spell. Legacy is a format with a lot of creatures, and, an equally high amount of removal to deal with it. If your fiend dies, they get their spell right back. Cabal therapy is good, but there is always the possibility of whiffing, and it's going to cost you some tempo to flash it back. Now, turning to your removal base, there is not much of one (2 cards of choice). Negator, in this deck, is very vulnerable and likely to put you in a bad situation. If you still want to play it, you should put your Negators in the SB, when you can comfortably take them in.

3. Swamp, Ritual, Priest, Hyppie is just plain awesome, which is what should go in over the Negators MD, as suggested by laststepdown. Plus, Hyppie will give your deck a stronger source of disruption as well, making your creature beatdown plan better, and he will draw removal, or get rid of it.

Now, on another note, here's the suggestions I would make:

-4 Negator
-4 Aether Vial
-4 Mesmeric Fiend (you have enough beaters, fiend looks weak)
-2 Swamp
+4 Hypnotic Specter
+2 Jitte (choosing jitte in your current removal spots as well)
+4 Hymn to Tourach/Sinkhole
+4 Wasteland

You might want to consider Duress over Cabal Therapy as well, try testing both. Anyway, hope this helps you out.

Phantom
07-17-2006, 11:46 AM
1) I actually think Negator should stay, but you need a lot more removal (and Jitte doesn't count). Negator thrives on clearing the way of blockers, which you can't do if you run 2 vendetta's. Your negator can't even attack into a 1/1 werebear with 4 cards in the graveyard for fear of Mental Note. Cut the 4 Vials and go up to at least 6 removal spells ( 4 Smother, 2 Edicts maybe?).

2) I actually think I like Fiend better than Dark Confidant here, which is pretty stunning.

3) Now that you know how to play Therapy correctly, I hope it'll be clear why I like Hymn better.

4) 18 land can't be enough can it? Maybe with 4 Vials, but I'd go to 20.

5) Hypy does indeed belong here. Along with Negator this gives you 2 bombs against combo.

6) I wouldn't run 4 Flesh Reavers or Shades just because of the crappiness of drawing 2.

Here would be my changes:

-4 Vial
-4 Therapy
-1 Mesmeric Fiend
-3 Carnophage
-1 Shade
-1 Reaver

+4 Smother
+4 Hymn
+4 Hypy
+2 Swamp

SuckerPunch
07-17-2006, 11:51 AM
Thank you for the great feedback.

Based on a couple of your suggestions Phantom, I changed the list a bit. I would like feedback on the newer list.

The deck is still strategically different from Sui Black. Where as Sui Black sacrifices speed for all manners of disruption. This deck doesn't sacrifice speed and the only disruption it runs is creature removal and random discard in the hopes of making your opponent discard more creatures.

Hence it's goal is to keep all significant threats off the table so your creatures can win for you.

Elfrago
07-17-2006, 03:47 PM
I've got three word for ya: S**ck I.. no, no, I meant Tomb Of Urami!

(For those who did'nt understand it's a joke about De-generation X (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degeneration_X))

TheDarkshineKnight
07-17-2006, 04:15 PM
To the people advocating removing Negator:

What the hell arre you guys smoking? Negator rapes almost everything in the format. Hell, he makes Goblins an easy match up by himself. His drawback is in no way a reason to nix his inclusion.

AnwarA101
07-18-2006, 12:44 PM
Before I worked on Red Death I was trying to work on mono-black aggro. I wanted to forsake the disruption for pure speed. This way I could go aggro against decks like Goblins and Thresh without having to worry about disrupting them. This would make it a more straight aggro deck instead of the aggro-control deck that Red Death and Suicide Black normally are. Your list doesn't seem to be straight aggro because you are running Hymn to Tourach plus removal spells. My version of the deck was just a bunch of creatures plus some pump spells like Funernal Charm and Thrull Retainer. My version had Sarcomancy, Carnophage, Flesh Reaver, Wretched Anurid, Erg Raiders, Hand of Cruelty, etc. I didn't play Negator because I wasn't running Ritual and I wanted to keep the curve at 1 or 2. I wasn't really convinced it was very good (and it was in my bag that was lost) so I haven't really revisited it.

I would have one word of advice I would worry about Priest of Gix and Dark Confidant being especially bad against goblins because they die to Mogg Fanatic.

SuckerPunch
07-18-2006, 02:37 PM
So do Sarcomancy if blocked by Fanatic and Nantuko Shade if you tap out.

You have removal to deal with the bigger goblin threats (Contagion is 2 for 1 against aggro goblins a lot while Smother is great versus tempo goblins), so it's not the end of the world if one of your creatures trades with fanatic.

I don't see much point in changing the list because of one card.

AnwarA101
07-18-2006, 02:46 PM
So do Sarcomancy if blocked by Fanatic and Nantuko Shade if you tap out.

You have removal to deal with the bigger goblin threats (Contagion is 2 for 1 against aggro goblins a lot while Smother is great versus tempo goblins), so it's not the end of the world if one of your creatures trades with fanatic.

I don't see much point in changing the list because of one card.

Just in my experience having bigger creatures is always important against Goblins. That's the way something like Red Death or Faerie Stompy beat Goblins because their creatures are so much bigger. I haven't tested your list. Have you had a chance to test it vs. Goblins? You might be right.

Phantom
07-18-2006, 04:09 PM
(Contagion is 2 for 1 against aggro goblins a lot while Smother is great versus tempo goblins)

Contagion is almost never a 2-for-1 against Goblins. In fact, it's almost always a 1-for-2 since you won't be paying the casting cost and you'll be targeting a 2 toughness Goblin or a lone attacking Lackey.

Actually, what is Contagion even doing here? You just can't run it in a deck with Confidant and no library manip. Especially when running reaver and anurid.

In fact, I think the Reaver/Anurid/Shade spot should just belong to Shade.

SuckerPunch
07-18-2006, 07:49 PM
That's only true if you play Contagion incorrectly.

The correct play is when you attack with two creatures and they block both of them with two higher toughness creatures.

Or vice versa, when they attack with bigger creatures thinking you can't block.

That's when you use Contagion to take out two of their creatures while saving your own.

And after the first time that's done, for the rest of the match, they hesistate to either attack or block.

If you're a halfway decent poker player, you can easily bluff as if you had a contagion and eat away at their life total to a point where they can't recover.

Contagion really is an mvp in a format as heavy on creature combat as Legacy is.

There is a 2% chance of drawing Contagion with Confidant. Even when it occasionally happens, it's rarely the reason you lost. Same reason so many confidant decks run FoW. The 4x Brainstorm they run rarely makes that big a difference, esp since it's cancelled out by the fact that this is a very fast deck that wins in just a few turns, whereas Blue Confidant decks take a long time to win.

But yes, I used to play Mesmeric Fiend in Confidant's slot before, so I haven't been too happy with Fiend.

I'm not sure I'm that happy with Confidant either. I might cut it to make room for both 4 Shade and 4 Flesh Reavers.

I agree with you that Gix's 1 toughness is a problem with Fanatic. But Gix is still an 0cc 2/1 in a deck that wants to win fast. So I can't bring myself to cut him based on one creature.

Phantom
07-19-2006, 02:33 PM
The correct play is when you attack with two creatures and they block both of them with two higher toughness creatures.

Or vice versa, when they attack with bigger creatures thinking you can't block.

That's when you use Contagion to take out two of their creatures while saving your own.

And after the first time that's done, for the rest of the match, they hesistate to either attack or block.



Please. This never happens. What deck is staying back to block when they have 2 bigger creatures than you? It's not like you're swarming Goblins down their throat. You're using the absolute best senario for Contagion, and it's still a 2-for-2 and -1 life. Any deck that's letting you hard cast it, doesn't even care about it. I'm not even saying it's a bad card, but let's compare it to Funeral Charm against the top decks of the format:

Goblins
Conatgion: B. Almost always a 1-for-2 in their favor since you'll either be hitting a Warchief before he can haste everyone, or a Lackey before he can connect. Fairly useless in the combat phase, because Goblins rarely block, and most of the decks creatures are bigger than Goblins. Still, free removal against Goblins is quite nice and it can shrink blockers of Negator (which is probably the only creature they'll stay back to block).

Funeral Charm: C. Kills first turn Lackey and can force a Goblin discard after a Ringleader drop.


Thesh
Contagion: F+. Counters>Contagion. Mongoose>Contagion. Enforcer>Contagion. Your best hope is to 1-for-2 an unthreshed Werebear (or kill one that blocks) or a Meddeling Mage/Confidant.

Funeral Charm: C+. Still hits unthreshed Were and Confidat but can also force a discard after Thresh has sculpted a nice hand. Can also give Negator evasion vs. Black Thresh.

Solidarity
Contagion: F-. Utterly fucking useless.

Funeral Charm: C+. Bad discard is still discard. Especially when you're playing other discard. Pump can help clock.


Rifter
Contagion: F. Avoids the minus by being able to take out 2 Decree tokens.

Funeral Charm: C+. Bad discard is still discard. Especially when you're playing other discard. Pump can help clock.

Deadguy
Contagion: B+. Can kill any of their creatures sans mana. You might even get lucky and grab a 2-for-2. Still, this match is usually about resolving your threats, and Contagioning a Hypy is like Hymning yourself.

Funeral charm: B+. All 3 of its powers are usful here. Kills DCs and unpumped Shades. Giving Negator swampwalk. And discard (best times are after they showed you a card via Scroll or cracked a fetch to play Vindicate).

------------------------------------------------------------------------


Once again, i'm not bashing Contagion or even saying that you should cut it completely, just that it's not the bomb you think it is. Hell, in the meta above (assuming my ratings are fair) it's a worse card than Funeral Charm, which is a borderline card itself. I'd reccomend dropping down to 2 if not 0.


@ SuckerPunch: Do you ever do any testing with any of these decks? I've noticed you've posted a lot of new decks lately and none of them have testing data of any kind. That's a really good way to get ignored. Even if the test results aren't spectacular, it'll give people a better starting point for reccomendations. Also, altering a deck that's never been tested and never going to be tested is pointless.

SuckerPunch
07-19-2006, 04:18 PM
First of all, take a deep breath dude. You're acting like I just called your mom a whore or something.

Second you seem to be missing the point of the developmental forum. If everyone was required to test 20 matchups against every major archeatype before posting any decks, there wouldn't even be a need for a developmental forum. I played this deck in my local card shop against a variety of decks on multiple occasions, and it did well. Did you hear me declare that this deck is the new king of the format or something? I made it quite clear that it is my pet deck. One that I would like input on.



What deck is staying back to block when they have 2 bigger creatures than you?

Seriously did you even read my post. That's precisely what you want them to do. You want them to attack thinking you can't block since they have bigger creatures. And that's when you play contagion, declare blockers, and turn their whole gameplan upside down.

That's hardly an unlikely scenario. It happens once on average every match I play against creature based decks. In a format ruled by creatures and creature combat, instantly manipulating combat damage is insanely good.

And do the math. You use up two cards to play Contagion, kill 2 of their creatures, and save 2 of your own. That's a 4:2 trade, or a 2:1.

Seriously, giving it an F against Threshold! I beat threshold because of that one card. The only thing it's useless against is Nimble Mongoose and you have lots of threats that are bigger than a stupid 3/3. If you're not going to try a card out, atleast think through the mechanics of the card before you bash it.

If being worthless against solidarity and rifter was any basis for not running a card, no one would bother with Swords either.

Besides even if you do use Contagion on one creature that's not attacking because it's hurting your gameplan that much (Meddling Mage). Big deal. You removed a card in your hand that you didn't plan to play anyways and made the same trade off you would have if you countered that relevent threat with FoW.

Myrrodin
07-19-2006, 05:17 PM
@SuckerPunch: Correction, you need to lighten up, he was just making a strong arguement, and you go bashing him for it. Plus, it is quite annoying arguing with a brick wall.

However, on more actual discussion, Contagion is really bad in the format as it is.


Seriously, giving it an F against Threshold! I beat threshold because of that one card. The only thing it's useless against is Nimble Mongoose and you have lots of threats that are bigger than a stupid 3/3. If you're not going to try a card out, atleast think through the mechanics of the card before you bash it.

Did you even read his reasoning. You completely ignored the fact that it is utterly useless against Mystic Enforcer, and seeing you play it while a thresh player has a counterspell would likely make them want to dance.

Now, you are playing balls to the wall aggro. If you have started to play defensively, your already losing. You shouldn't be sitting back without attacking just to make a sub-par card decent against your opponent.They have a stronger and larger creature base, as well as being able to create card advantage to keep rushing against you until you fall over.

SuckerPunch
07-19-2006, 05:45 PM
I wouldn't have a problem with his post if he was actually making a strong argument.

But attacking me by claiming that I didn't test the deck at all. Making up completely arbitrary letter grades that he obviously pulled out of his butt. All because in his first post, he overlooked the fact that contagion can be used combat phase when he bashed the card initially without bothering to think it through, and I pointed it out. He overlooked the fact that you have Smother to deal with Warcheif and bigger creatures to block Lackey. So now he feels the need to continue bashing the card arbitrarily in order to justify his own initial oversight. And I am sure he will continue to do so.

Mirrodan, What's so ironic is that you too degenerated to infantilishly calling me a brick wall just because we got into a little tiff over in the madness thread. Do you even remember what the tiff was about. It was because you were so adamant that posting results wasn't needed in a thread in the Open Forum mind you, where there actually is a need for a deck builder to post results. When you insist that a deck in the open forum doens't need matchups/results and that "people should just play the deck themselves instead of asking the builder how it does," and then turn around and make the opposite argument on someone's pet deck in the developmental forum mind you, that's truly hilarous.

Yes Mystic Enforcer is a problem... to any black deck from Pikula to standard suiblack. Just because one version of Thres runs 2 copies of one particular creature doesn't mean that Contagion is worthless in that matchup and should be cut altogether, esp consider that it's still effectivley agianst 60%+ of the threats the deck runs. It's still solid against Werebear and Mage. By your logic, any sort of black removal is utterly useless as it's not usable against one particular threat in a particular matchup. I never claimed this deck has a positive win percantage against Thres, just that it does win against it some of the time, and Contagion is not worthless as it's solid against 60%+ of their threats.

And what do you mean Contagion makes you sit back and play defensively. You want to attack when you have a Contagion and hope they block with larger blockers, so you can Contagion and take them out. If you just cast the creature and they attack first, that's when you contagion then block. It works both ways. Taking only half of what I said and twisting it isn't much of an argument.

And of course you wouldn't rely on Contagion if they have double blue untapped or haven't Forced yet that game and are holding a fistful of cards and your Hymns and Hyppes didn't hit any forces either. Yes that would be a stupid play and if that's how you plan to play the card, then of course you're not going to be happy with the card.

From the sounds of it, its apparent that you only considered Contagion in a vaccum as well, disregarding the role of teh combat phase, random discard on countermagic and cards like Smother in situations where Contagion isn't optimal. And will respond in kind for the sole sake of justifying your last post.

So since you guys already degenerated to calling me names because we disagreed on other threads, why doesn't everyone that had a disagreement with me at one point or another get out your flamethrowers and fire away meaninglessly. I would rather that you get your little grudges over with here instead of ruining some other discussion too. It's been a while since I partook in a good old fashioned flamefest anyways. It should be a blast till the mods see fit to lock this topic.

Phantom
07-20-2006, 06:12 PM
Sorry it has taken me so long to respond, my damn AC has been out.

First, I didn't mean to flame anyone and apologize if it came off that way. I hate when threads and forums degenerate from real discussion to petty name calling. If my post was too sharp, I blame the unairconditioned room. Anyway, on to the deck:

@testing: I didn't mean to accuse you of not testing or say that you need to test 10 matchups at 20 pre and post board against all of them before you ever post the deck. What I was trying to say (and did a very poor job at) is that as a poster on another person's deck, I always appreciate it when they do testing (at least against Gobs, Thresh, and Combo) to see whether the changes have been an improvement, or decline. That keeps me interested in a thread, and gives me more ideas on how to improve problem matchups.

If you're not interested in taking the deck to that point, that's fine, but don't be suprised when your threads fade into oblivion after a few pages.

@contagion: We might just have to agree to disagree here. I just don't think it's a very good card, and I think the opportunities you will get to play it during the combat phase, especially on 2 larger creatures, will be few and far between. I do think that this is probably the best deck in the meta for it because of negator, so if you're going to run it anywhere, run it here.


And do the math. You use up two cards to play Contagion, kill 2 of their creatures, and save 2 of your own. That's a 4:2 trade, or a 2:1.


I understand your point here, but this is dangerous ground. You're talking about vitual card advantage, as opposed to actual card advantage. You lost 2 cards, he lost 2 cards. That's how card advantage works.

Virtual card advantage is a little different. If you bolt a Meddeling Mage, that's a 1-for-1. If that Mage was naming a card in your hand, it's still a 1:1, but it's virtually a 2:1.

Now the above statement is a little trickier because we're not sure how you would have blocked if you weren't holding Contagion. Let's say it was 2 Werebears attacking into 2 Anurids. Odds are, if you're not holding the contagion you're either not blocking or more likely tag teaming one for a 1:1 and minus 4 life. The only way Contagion is a virtual 4:2 is if you had to chump each bear no matter what. This also brings into play the shockingly bad situation of contagion getting countered and you on the end of a 1:4 real card advantage.

As to the grades on contagion and funeral charm, they are completely subjective, but I tried to make them fair with a clear and concise argument following them to spark a good debate. I just like to organize my posts clearly.


If being worthless against solidarity and rifter was any basis for not running a card, no one would bother with Swords either.


I think the difference here is that Swords is an undisputed A+ against every aggro deck in the format which makes up for the dead slot against other decks (and actually it's decent in the Rifter matchup if they try to win with recurred Dragons). The question is whether contagion is good enough in some matchups to make up for it's bad ones.

Once again, sorry for the flames, perceived or real. Hope we can continue to discuss this and other decks in a productive way.

SuckerPunch
07-20-2006, 07:38 PM
I too am very sorry for flaming you. I was tempermental as well. I do hope we can continue this discussion productively.

I always cast contagion before I declare blockers, just in anticipation of facing countermagic.

I definately agree with you that Contagion is a contidional card. It just fits really well into this specific decks game plan.

This deck isn't sui black. It's a pet deck not designed to beat everything, simply designed beat a lot of random aggro I face, while still being able to race combo on occasion. My meta has a some good decks, some janky ones, somedecent players, and some poor ones. I play a lot of games but posting matchup anaylisis based on that really doesn't add much to the discussion IMO, which is why I prefer not to, and which is why I never made the claim that this was anything more than a pet deck.

Contagion was added when I was decided that I wanted to add a lot of removal effects to the deck. When there is a lot of creatures and combat going on on the board, as is common with the decks I face, and when it has Smother to deal with the creatures that it can't, that's when Contagion truly shines. And it has proven extremely effective for me in many situations. The same Angel stompy deck that consistently used to beat me in the past, has had a significantly harder time since I started running 4x Contagion, and that's just one minor example.

This creature removal plus beatdown strategy has been working so well that I am considering forgoing Hymns as well, to add even more removal, ala. Edict, or Spinning Darkness, or Vendetta, or Snuff Out or something, whichever proves more versatile along with 4 Confidants to draw into even more removal. There are a lot of good removal spells. So if you're unhappy with Spinning Darkness, you're welcome to run one of the many alternative in it's place.

I really don't mind if this topic dies now. I just wanted some input and suggestions on the deck, which I got. Now with the changes I made, the deck is performing better, around how I wanted it to.

Just for the hell of it, tonight, I'll probably throw together something like below, and see how if fares over the weekend, and what I can learn from the changes...

12 Swamp
2 Cabal Pit
2 Tomb of Urami
4 Ancient Tomb

4 Dark Ritual
4 Diablolic Edict
4 Smother
2 Contagion
2 Spinning Darkness - I love Contagion, but I never got a chance to try this card out at all. And a little life gain might help in a list like this.

4 Sarcomancy
4 Carnophage
4 Wretched Anurid
4 Flesh Reaver
4 Priest of Gix
4 Phyrexian Negator

And no, I'm not anticipating that this deck will do well at all.

But hopefully I also gave some good ideas to people who were looking to enter this format on a budget with an efficent deck, and didn't want to play burn or 9 land stompy (which sucks IMO).

So I'll let this thread die now.

lolosoon
07-24-2006, 01:59 PM
I'm not sure this is the thread for posting this, but I'm not certain the idea deserve a new topic.

But I really like the idea of Ancient Tomb and Dark Ritual put altogether in the same aggro deck. But instead of running B or 1B cc critters, I'd rather play 2B or 3-4 cc beasts to an optimum use of those mana accelerators.

English is not my native language but I'll try to be as clear as possible.

The inspiration is mainly 5/3. But the decklists I've seen played around are monobrown or with a slight White splash principally for Miss E.Angel.

I've tested the deck, and I like it a lot but I wonder if a blach splash won't give a more explosive start.

Maybe I should start with the decklist and card explanation ?!

// Deck (61) : Phyrexian Stompy (5/3 flavoured Black Stompy)

// Mana (32) :
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitor
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Wastelands
8x Swamps
4x Mox Diamond
4x Dark Rituals

// Creatures (14) :
4x Phyrexian War-Beast
4x Phyrexian Negator
3x Phyrexian Scuta
3x Synod Centurion

// Artifacts (15) :
4x Sword of Fire and Ice
3x Crucible of Worlds
4x Trinisphere
4x Chalice of the Void


// Sideboard (15) :
4x Tormod's Crypt / Leyline of he Void
4x Engineered Plague
4x Pithing Needle
3x Defense Grid / Powder Keg



Ancient Tomb / City of Traitor
The 3/3 split is only because that without E.Angel in the deck, the Tomb's lifeloss can really hurt. 6 "2mana" lands are a l'il bit short to insure you of drawing one of them 1st turn, but still we have the Rituals and Moxes to fuel up our start.
+1/+1 due to the need of adding consticency in having 3 mana by turn 1.

Mishra's Factory / Wastelands
Mishras add to the pressure, WasteLock is nice, I wish I had found the room to play a full playset of them...
Rooms found

Mox Diamond / Dark Rituals
A must-have as 4-ofs.
They help you a lot for getting those 3 mana as fast as possible. Moxes work perfectly well with Crucible as proven in the $t@x and 5/3 builds.
Chalice is a problem for the Rituals, but you only have to play Dark Rituals in your first 2 turns. It's the same conflict that with Moxes and Trinisphere, they have to be played in correct order.
I know 20 lands is really shy for optimize 4 Moxes, but you do need them in your starting hand.
24 Lands now, Moxes work better

Swamps
You don't need double black, but you must have a black mana source in your opening hand, so 8 is enough

Phyrexian War-Beast
3 damage, bolt-proof, all for 3 mana. And the drawback is limited by the MD Crucibles. They're the main beaters.

Phyrexian Negator
Classic but debatable. Bolts and Incinerators hurt, sure, but with Chalices and the Pro:Red given by SoFI around it's not THAT problematic. Great beater, trample makes it your main equipment target.

Phyrexian Scuta
5/5 with no other drawback that the kicker life's loss. I usually prefer him to Juggy because he's "naturally" burn-proof.

Synod Centurions
Bigger body than Juggernaut and the drawback is negated by the all the artifact packed in the deck.

Sword of Fire and Ice
Draw engine, extra damages and, mainly, Pro:Red ! With all the mana accelerations you can easily swing with an equiped beast by turn 3.

Crucible of Worlds
Wasteproof, Wastelock, re-usable Factories or City of Traitors, minimize Negator or Drinker's drawbacks are enough reasons for playing 3 of them, aren't they ?

Trinisphere / Chalice of the Void
Beside Rituals and Moxes, only your opponent will be hurt by those 2 nasty combo-hosers. Can steal games by their own.
4 ofs are a must-have 'cause you really want to drop one 1st turn if able.


No Hymns / No Sinkholes ??
3Spheres and Chalices are our main disruption, and BB is really hard to reach with all the colorless lands we're packing.


I'm sorry I don't have Win% for now. My local Gauntlet is not [i]that[i] competitive and I don't have access to MWS online play, but on paper and goldfishing, the deck runs really well. I know it can be improved (that's the main reason posting it).

All I know is that it wrecks random AggroJunk, have a correct Goblin Matchup (especially after SB) and regulary beats Threshold (netdecked and piloted by an average player)...

Well, I hope the time spent writing down this post will be retributed ^^;

Please Discuss !!

Bad land count
Edited Decklist and Explanations

SuckerPunch
07-24-2006, 02:52 PM
Lol, that's awesome, that's precisely what I mentioned that I'm considering trying in my opening post.

A few things. Don't really see the point in the factories. I would just run 4 Tomb and 4 Traitors. You probably need to up the Black mana source count by one or two. 13-14 is what you want if you want reliably be able to get a Swamp in the opening hand most of the time. Cabal Pit and Tomb of Urami are options as are Swamp.

I really don't like Drinker of Sorrow, and Juggernaut seems meh in a format where bolt is everywhere. Synod isn't bad but not great.

Grinning Demon is very solid, probably better than Scuta, and cheap on ebay. Edit: Sorry, overlooked the double BB in the casting cost.

Priest of Gix isn't half bad. It's 2B and free. Lets you play multiple things turn one.

I do think Jitte is better than Light and Shadow.

But overall I love your build. It looks tight. Keep working on it.

lolosoon
07-24-2006, 04:27 PM
Thanks for your encouragements ^^


Don't really see the point in the factories. I would just run 4 Tomb and 4 Traitors. You probably need to up the Black mana source count by one or two.
I agree the manabase is quite shaky and need to be fixed. About the Factories, I stuck with them for a long time due to 3 things : Humility (Parfait/Wombat/Rifter), Standstill (Landstill/Fish) and, when I ran them, Su-Chi (as mana "sinker" (?)). Once equiped (and with Chalice @1 backup) they're hard to stop due to a huge pro:red (or pro:white) body immune to sorcery-speed removal.

But with all the trouble I have in having 3 mana by turn 1, maybe -3 Factories +1 Tomb, +1 City, +1 Swamp will do it.


I really don't like Drinker of Sorrow, and Juggernaut seems meh in a format where bolt is everywhere. Synod isn't bad but not great.
Drinker isn't that great, I concede, that's why I only play 2 of them and thinking about dropping them totally. A 4 turn clock seems great but you will lose 4 permanents to do that.
Juggy is good I assure you. I'm more afraid of Incinerators than of bolts that B/r Sui, Burn/Sligh, U/r Fish and some Thresh builds pacck in. Sure it's here, sure it's really annoying, but not really everywhere.
Juggy can trade with Mongoose and Werebear, even E.Angel (not a thing that often happen) and can alone race Solidarity from time to time.

@Priest of Gix : beside dropping him turn 1-2, I won't like top decking the priest. With Chalice or Trinisphere on play, Extra Rituals and Moxes are dead draws, I don't want adding more dead draws in TopDeck mode.

Damn, I have to find more time for playtesting... =/

SuckerPunch
07-24-2006, 05:59 PM
It's great but I am also considering running Ancient Tomb in it's place to support faster Negators and more equipment ala Fairie Stompy and Angel Stompy.

Of course, a lot more things about the deck would change, it's forsaking of Hypnotic Spectar, Hymn and Sinkhole for Negator, Equipment and Priest of Gix as well as it's name would make more sense. But I am not completely sure if I want to make that leap yet.

Lol, We think a lot alike.

That list got my juices flowing to make a list (essentially your list with a few alteratons) and test it out MWS...

The list was...

//Mana
10 Swamp
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wastelands
4 Mox Diamond
4 Dark Ritual

//Threats
4 Priest of Gix
4 Phyrexian War Beast
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Phyrexian Scuta
4 Synod Centurion (I picked this over SOFI because I felt like I wanted 20 creatures and more stuff at 4cc, but SOFI is a good call too)

//Disruption
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds

I've got to say, I'm impressed. I beat a bunch of random scrubs who got owned by Chalice and Trinisphere.

The mana base is working well.

I like Gix a ton. It speeds up your clock by a full turn (three turns if accompanied by Negator) (four by anything else). Fast enough to race Solidarity while disrupting it with Chalice and Trinisphere.

I edited this list into the original post, giving you credit of course, as the old list really doesn't warrant much discussion and this one is miles better. Hope you don't mind.

Cavius The Great
07-24-2006, 06:21 PM
Suckerpunch A.K.A. "Mr. I don't use Duress becuase it doesnt get rid of creatures". That's what creature destruction is for man. Duress gets rid of counters and Swords to Plowshares and that's the main reason ppl run 4. You really need more experience when it comes to the game before making these "bold" statements and arguing with ppl. If more than one person says you're wrong it's probably true man.

SuckerPunch
07-24-2006, 06:26 PM
Lol, have you been following this thread at all. You're like one page and 18 posts behind.

That was the last time someone suggested that I add Hymn or perhaps Duress. And that was the only person to even mention Duress.

And I followed their suggestions and added Hymn like two posts later.

And we're not even talking about that deck anymore.

Maybe your reply got clogged up in some weird cache time warp thing and took this long to show up or something :p

Cavius The Great
07-24-2006, 07:13 PM
Lol, have you been following this thread at all. You're like one page and 18 posts behind.

That was the last time someone suggested that I add Hymn or perhaps Duress. And that was the only person to even mention Duress.

And I followed their suggestions and added Hymn like two posts later.

And we're not even talking about that deck anymore.

Maybe your reply got clogged up in some weird cache time warp thing and took this long to show up or something :p

I can post about anything I feel like it. You really need to start taking advice from ppl instead of arguing with them. Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall, it's really annoying man.

SuckerPunch
07-25-2006, 05:41 PM
lolosoon, I cut a Swamp in the new deck's list for another Trinisphere. I like that because Trinisphere rocks and you sometimes draw too many lands.


I can post about anything I feel like it. You really need to start taking advice from ppl instead of arguing with them. Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall, it's really annoying man.

Cavius, are you for real? You're calling me a brick wall in the same post that you completely ignore everything I said and instead posted a one liner response that said nothing at all.

You're calling me a brick wall after these two unprovoked posts you made at the Thrumming Stone thread when I suggested running Unmask since the deck runs 20 rats and you only want one in your opening hand.



You're thinking like this is normal deck. This is a combo deck.

On average you will have 2.5 Rats in your opening hand. You only want 1. The other rats are complete utter wastes of space. You want to discard them.

Your first turn play is either to cast Peat Bog (so you can cast Stone with a Dark Ritual or Ancient Tomb or something next turn) or to cast Enlightened Tutor or heck, even Spoils of the Vault. You never want to be duressing turn one.

There is no justification for running Duress over Unmask. Plus, when you get to unmask away that Meddling Mage, you'll be happy that you did. No offense but you really are an idiot. I play combo decks and i don't always draw the combo component by the time I hit five mana. I sometimes draw it when I have 6 and I'm able to cast a Duress. I've also played games where my opponent never even casts a Meddling Mage, while running 4, so that shouldnt be a major issue, especially first game when he doesn't know what you're playing.




Lol, you're the one that wants to run Duress over Unmask in a deck that

a.) has much better things to do turn one
b.) is very tight for mana
c.) straight up loses to Meddling Mage
d.) and CONSISTENTLY has multiple dead black cards (Rats) in it's hand because it's running 18-20 Rats when it only needs one Rat to go off.

And you justify this because you occasionally have an extra mana or the Thres player occasionally doesn't draw a Mage, and you're calling me the idiot. :laugh:

Seriously man, Duress is inferior to Unmask in every way in a deck that consistently has multiple dead black cards (Rats) in it's hand. Think it through.
i don't need to argue with you, I already explained my reasons and you blatantly ignored them. You are a moron.

Yes, it's pretty apparent from the contents of your posts who's justifying their posts and who is acting like a brick wall.

Cavius The Great
07-26-2006, 01:23 PM
lolosoon, I cut a Swamp in the new deck's list for another Trinisphere. I like that because Trinisphere rocks and you sometimes draw too many lands.



Cavius, are you for real? You're calling me a brick wall in the same post that you completely ignore everything I said and instead posted a one liner response that said nothing at all.

You're calling me a brick wall after these two unprovoked posts you made at the Thrumming Stone thread when I suggested running Unmask since the deck runs 20 rats and you only want one in your opening hand.






Yes, it's pretty apparent from the contents of your posts who's justifying their posts and who is acting like a brick wall.


I'm not going to argue with you. My point is, anyone that doesnt run Duress in mono-black and any deck with black for that matter, is a bad Magic player/deck-builder. It's as simple as that.

lolosoon
07-26-2006, 03:10 PM
lolosoon, I cut a Swamp in the new deck's list for another Trinisphere. I like that because Trinisphere rocks and you sometimes draw too many lands.
I've seen your list on the SCG fora and, yes, 3Sphere is awesome. but I'd do like to stay high in land count : 21 lands for 4 Moxes is a bit shy.
I'm not fond with the Priets of Gix, so I'd swap them for a mix of 3Sphere/TangleWires/Lands.

I've update my previous list.



anyone that doesnt run Duress in mono-black and any deck with black for that matter, is a bad Magic player/deck-builder. It's as simple as that.
Really that simple ?!

I don't want to intervene in your li'l sparring match vs SuckerPunch but as a black player, I can't let this statement unresponded.

Duress in every black build ?! Hah !
- Duress does quite nothing to goblin. Hitting a vial is only done by sheer luck.
- vs Threshold, 1st turn Trinisphere/Chalice > 1st turn Duress (if it even resolves)
- the same statement as above can be said vs Solidarity or IggyPop


Oh, and if you want to continue your li'l flaming, could you please do it via Private Messages ? I'd like to stay on topic... ^^

Cavius The Great
07-26-2006, 03:48 PM
I've seen your list on the SCG fora and, yes, 3Sphere is awesome. but I'd do like to stay high in land count : 21 lands for 4 Moxes is a bit shy.
I'm not fond with the Priets of Gix, so I'd swap them for a mix of 3Sphere/TangleWires/Lands.

I've update my previous list.



Really that simple ?!

I don't want to intervene in your li'l sparring match vs SuckerPunch but as a black player, I can't let this statement unresponded.

Duress in every black build ?! Hah !
- Duress does quite nothing to goblin. Hitting a vial is only done by sheer luck.
- vs Threshold, 1st turn Trinisphere/Chalice > 1st turn Duress (if it even resolves)
- the same statement as above can be said vs Solidarity or IggyPop


Oh, and if you want to continue your li'l flaming, could you please do it via Private Messages ? I'd like to stay on topic... ^^

Mono-black control running Trinisphere and Chalice is an exception. Any other black aggro deck runs Duress hands down.

You do have alot of stupid choices in the build such as Ritual and Mox Diamond. I realize that powers out an early turn Trinisphere or chalice but thats 7 dead cards in your deck once you actually have one in play.

Whats the point of running black besides the mana acceleration? I don't even see Braids in your list, that's kinda lame.

You should atleast be playing cards like Mishra's Factory for some extra uncounterable, reccuring beats that are not effected my Trinisphere.

lolosoon
07-26-2006, 04:36 PM
Thanks for your constructive reply ^^


Mono-black control running Trinisphere and Chalice is an exception. Any other black aggro deck runs Duress hands down.
Sure, Duress is great along with Hymns in Black Sui or aggro in General.
I just wanted to point out that black aggro is not every black deck :p


You do have alot of stupid choices in the build such as Ritual and Mox Diamond. I realize that powers out an early turn Trinisphere or chalice but thats 7 dead cards in your deck once you actually have one in play.

Whats the point of running black besides the mana acceleration? I don't even see Braids in your list, that's kinda lame.
Well, at least you've said the the choices are stupid, not me. It's an improvement, isn't it ?! =/
I do know that once 3Sphere is in play, both Moxes and Rituals suck. But without them, it's really hard to have any consistance dropping the sphere by turn 1. I can't rely only in Cities/Tombs to speed up the deck.

As I said, black is mainly there to speed your starts up. That being said, I've tune my deck from 5/3 which is splashing white only for MD Exalted Angel and I'm trying the black splash to add more early threats in place of Negators and Scutas.

I've tested Braids. They're fine but not enough aggressive. Smokestack is great 5/3 isn't playing to be on a more aggressive way. I'd rather follow this example and play 5/5 critters than 2/2 that need double black to be played.


You should atleast be playing cards like Mishra's Factory for some extra uncounterable, reccuring beats that are not effected my Trinisphere.
Look closer at my list. You'll see I've always pack Factories, and complete the set in the last build...

Cavius The Great
07-26-2006, 05:31 PM
Have you considered Greater harvester? It's fat, big and fits the mana curve, plus works well with Crucible and has a really cool ability. You can probably get one first turn with Ritual, Mox, Ancient Tomb. Second turn is easier though and more common. Once this thing hits play early in the game it's basically game over for your opponent.

SuckerPunch
07-31-2006, 01:00 PM
If it had trample, it would be an autoinclude. As is, I don't think it's worth playing.

Maybe in a deck with a bunch of undercosted weenies. But here, almost every permanent you play is a giant threat, or a two mana producing land, or your only black source. You don't want to sac any of them to take out a chump blocker.

As for the original list. I've gotten a hold of 4 Su-Chi, so that's what I'm running over Synod Centurion.

I'm testing SOFI in Gix's place right now.

As as I already mentioned, I cut a Swamp for 4th Trinisphere.

Cavius The Great
08-01-2006, 11:17 AM
If it had trample, it would be an autoinclude. As is, I don't think it's worth playing.

Maybe in a deck with a bunch of undercosted weenies. But here, almost every permanent you play is a giant threat, or a two mana producing land, or your only black source. You don't want to sac any of them to take out a chump blocker.

As for the original list. I've gotten a hold of 4 Su-Chi, so that's what I'm running over Synod Centurion.

I'm testing SOFI in Gix's place right now.

As as I already mentioned, I cut a Swamp for 4th Trinisphere.

It's a decent card. if you get it down early enough it doesnt matter if it has trample becuase your opponent will be chump blocking it anyways just to protect his lands and permanents, he loses permanents either way. It also has synergy with Crucible of World. And who gives a fuck about undercosted weenies, you'll be sacking a land to it every turn which is a minimal drawback.

dre4m
08-01-2006, 11:56 AM
If you want the Greater Harvester effect without the scruples of attacking, you can always try Braids, Cabal Minion, but that is a deck unto itself.

SuckerPunch
08-01-2006, 01:23 PM
This deck rarely has much land to sac. It runs Mox Diamond and Wastelands, so it loses lands by itself. The only lands you can often sac or two mana producing lands, so you're essentially losing two mana each turn, or one of 9 swamp, which cuts you off from all your black threats.

So no, I don't feel it's worth it to play a 5 cc 5/6 that gets chumpblocked left and right while also costing you a land for a turn or two before killing off valuable permanents. There are far better 5cc cards I would rather run.

Like I said, if it had either a lower cc or trample, it would be an autoinclude.

Cavius The Great
08-01-2006, 04:45 PM
This deck rarely has much land to sac. It runs Mox Diamond and Wastelands, so it loses lands by itself. The only lands you can often sac or two mana producing lands, so you're essentially losing two mana each turn, or one of 9 swamp, which cuts you off from all your black threats.

So no, I don't feel it's worth it to play a 5 cc 5/6 that gets chumpblocked left and right while also costing you a land for a turn or two before killing off valuable permanents. There are far better 5cc cards I would rather run.

Like I said, if it had either a lower cc or trample, it would be an autoinclude.

Once a Greater harvester comes into play, odds are that your board position would be superior considering that it comes into play early. You can get one down by the first or second turn then wreak havoc with it. There are decks out there that it would be a complete bomb against such as Solidarity. I'm not saying it's the best option out there, but it fits the decks theme, land destruction is sweet under Trinisphere. And a permanent that's able to do it is gold. Another 5cc card you're overlooking is Razormane Masticore which totally annihilates most aggro.

lolosoon
08-01-2006, 05:40 PM
I'm not saying it's the best option out there, but it fits the decks theme, land destruction is sweet under Trinisphere. And a permanent that's able to do it is gold.
Well, when I post my Phyrexian Stompy, I wasn't thinking about LD and 3sphere lock but of early threats and early disruption. This deck is like a black version of 5/3, it's not $t@cks.

Greater Harvester is not :
- Quick disruption that can give you a 1 to 4 turns tempo gain
- Quick threat that can win the game during those turns

Furthermore, with only 12-13 black sources (once chalice is out, you can't rely on Rituals) the BBB mana in Harvester's cc is quite hard to find, even midgame. And this deck can't go to the late game du to lack of board sweepers like.. say... decks like Jack Black or Train Wreck, with the latest using Helldozer as big beater and recurring LD.

Still, I'm not saying that Harverster is crap (though...) but I think it doesn't belong to the current deck, or the current meta.

No_Life_No_Future
08-01-2006, 08:46 PM
I recomend running unmask... It would be an awesome inclusion to power through your trini/chalice, its also good against goblins, and with all of the accell it could be hardcast.

Have you thought about running Cranial Extraction or haunting echos on the side/main?

lolosoon
08-01-2006, 09:45 PM
I recomend running unmask... It would be an awesome inclusion to power through your trini/chalice, its also good against goblins, and with all of the accell it could be hardcast.
Yes, if I was opting for early hand disruption, Unmask can be superior to duress, mainly due to Chalice set @1.
Sure you can pitch your extra (dead) Rituals to it...

...BUT unmask still costs 3 colorless mana when played under 3sphere. And for 3-4 mana, I'd rather put a "lock" piece or a fatty in play.

Phyrexian / Black Stompy is an aggro deck with disruptives lock parts included. I can't go under 4 Chalices and 3-4 Trinispheres, they're primordial.
And I can't play less than 14 fatties to be sure to put one of'em into play by turn 1-2.

Still, there are debatables slots (equipments, manabase, critter amount...), but for now I can't see what to drop for adding 4 discard spell. Especially if they don't significantly improve any matchups.



Have you thought about running Cranial Extraction or haunting echos on the side/main?
This deck don't need the extractions because it already have a great combo matchup (permanent disruption + short clock). Sure, getting rid of opponent's Humility, Worship or pesty things like Meddling Mages is tempting...
Maybe as a SB slot, but my SB is already packed tight. It'll be hard to find rooms for them.

Echoes seems tempting as well as an alternate kill, but without MD discard or removal, it's a little less good imho.
For Threshold matchup, and graveyard hate in general, a full set of Crypts seems a lot better, and faster imho.

But maybe you have some bad matchups in mind that I can't see for the moment ?

As an example, I know I have trouble facing RG Zilla Stompy, mainly due to 5/x trampler + direct damages.
My matchups vs this deck are like 35/65 for now, and adding 1 MD 3sphere have not helped a lot to slow down the deck...

Cavius The Great
08-02-2006, 07:03 AM
Yes, if I was opting for early hand disruption, Unmask can be superior to duress, mainly due to Chalice set @1.
Sure you can pitch your extra (dead) Rituals to it...

...BUT unmask still costs 3 colorless mana when played under 3sphere. And for 3-4 mana, I'd rather put a "lock" piece or a fatty in play.

Phyrexian / Black Stompy is an aggro deck with disruptives lock parts included. I can't go under 4 Chalices and 3-4 Trinispheres, they're primordial.
And I can't play less than 14 fatties to be sure to put one of'em into play by turn 1-2.

Still, there are debatables slots (equipments, manabase, critter amount...), but for now I can't see what to drop for adding 4 discard spell. Especially if they don't significantly improve any matchups.



This deck don't need the extractions because it already have a great combo matchup (permanent disruption + short clock). Sure, getting rid of opponent's Humility, Worship or pesty things like Meddling Mages is tempting...
Maybe as a SB slot, but my SB is already packed tight. It'll be hard to find rooms for them.

Echoes seems tempting as well as an alternate kill, but without MD discard or removal, it's a little less good imho.
For Threshold matchup, and graveyard hate in general, a full set of Crypts seems a lot better, and faster imho.

But maybe you have some bad matchups in mind that I can't see for the moment ?

As an example, I know I have trouble facing RG Zilla Stompy, mainly due to 5/x trampler + direct damages.
My matchups vs this deck are like 35/65 for now, and adding 1 MD 3sphere have not helped a lot to slow down the deck...


LMAO. Are you and SuckerPunch the same person? Cuz you both sound like the same idiot. It takes a very lame person to use two usernames just to agree with eachother, you loser.

SuckerPunch
08-02-2006, 09:30 AM
LMAO. Are you and SuckerPunch the same person? Cuz you both sound like the same idiot. It takes a very lame person to use two usernames just to agree with eachother, you loser.

Lol Cavius, you caught me. I have two different identities on here. One based in Ohio and one in Europe somewhere (that was just a guess lolosoon). I hop on a plane and fly over there any time I want to make a post with my alternate identity.

It gets kind of expensive but it's worth every penny if it means that I get respond to myself.

Seriously man, is this what you do anytime someone makes a well thought out post that you can't respond to?

I didn't think anything could top your whole, "anyone that suggest Unmask over Duress in a deck that runs 20 of the same black card that it doesn't want multiples of is an idiot" idiocy or your whole "talking to a brick wall" retardedness, but you some how pulled that off.

It's like watching a blind dog crash into a wall over and over again or something. You feel so sorry for it and want to intervene and help it out, but it's pretty obvious that you can't do much good.

Good luck with life there, you clearly need it.

dre4m
08-02-2006, 11:24 AM
It's like watching a blind dog crash into a wall over and over again or something. You feel so sorry for it and want to intervene and help it out, but it's pretty obvious that you can't do much good.


I can do you one better.



Watching you play is like watching a monkey try to fuck a football

xsockmonkeyx
08-02-2006, 12:04 PM
:mad:

Machinus
08-02-2006, 12:11 PM
Have you tested Negator out against Goblins?

I really like the deck name.

dre4m
08-02-2006, 12:27 PM
Welcome to the Source!
While this is a good first post,I believe there is already a deck similar to this one in the Improvement Forum.
I would be interested to see some matchup statistics/analysis and card explanations, as it seems like you have very little disruption and no card draw, and your deck would be simple to hose with a single mass removal spell. You really need some more removal/disruption to back up those Negators, and certainly better than Rend Flesh. Smother, Diabolic Edict, Infest, and many others can fill its place much better. I believe this should be moved to the Improvement forum pending matchup/card selection analysis.

Kadishack
08-02-2006, 12:34 PM
I would probably run lotus petal over chrome mox because the card disadvantage can be huge especially for an aggro deck. Also, why no duress??? It is one of the best cards black has to offer. Persecute seems like it would be very nice vs. combo decks and control decks. Just my input here.

SuckerPunch
08-02-2006, 01:20 PM
Good post, but, this deck has been up in a different thread on the developmental forum for a while now and lolosoon and I've been working on it there.

Here's the list I'm currently using (it's near identical to the build we have up at the start of that thread).

//Mana
10 Swamp
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wastelands
4 Mox Diamond
4 Dark Ritual

//Threats
4 SOFI or Priest of Gix
4 Phyrexian War Beast
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Phyrexian Scuta
4 Su-Chi/Synod Centurion

//Disruption
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds

I'm very curious to hear about your satisfaction with the manabase. It'll take a bit of convincing for me to believe that 16 lands + 4 Chrome Mox is enough to support such a very percentage of 3cc and 4cc cards. On top of that you only run 8 swamps and 4 Chrome Mox which means you could be cut off from black mana often.

I did always like Chrome Mox though, and wouldn't mind making it work. Also, about Hymn/Unmask. I don't think the BB of Hymn can be supported with 12 black sources, and I'm not sure the card disadv of Unmask over Duress is worthwhile in this case, this isn't exactly a combo deck that runs 20 rats for one.

Edit: lol, thx dreAms, that quote is definately a lot better and I'll save that one for next time.

Jander78
08-02-2006, 01:25 PM
Merged threads.
Welcome to The Source!

Cavius The Great
08-02-2006, 03:45 PM
Lol Cavius, you caught me. I have two different identities on here. One based in Ohio and one in Europe somewhere (that was just a guess lolosoon). I hop on a plane and fly over there any time I want to make a post with my alternate identity.

It gets kind of expensive but it's worth every penny if it means that I get respond to myself.

Seriously man, is this what you do anytime someone makes a well thought out post that you can't respond to?

I didn't think anything could top your whole, "anyone that suggest Unmask over Duress in a deck that runs 20 of the same black card that it doesn't want multiples of is an idiot" idiocy or your whole "talking to a brick wall" retardedness, but you some how pulled that off.

It's like watching a blind dog crash into a wall over and over again or something. You feel so sorry for it and want to intervene and help it out, but it's pretty obvious that you can't do much good.

Good luck with life there, you clearly need it.


You could of just used different emails, but that's besides the point. Anybody that thinks Unmask is better than Duress is an idiot, strait up. I shouldn't have to explain myself, it's pretty much self explanatory. The only logic that you gave me is that Unmask gets rid of creatures. Well, black has alot creature destruction, so that's a foolish statement. And ppl play Hymns becuase it could possibly get rid of land cards not becuase of creatures.

quicksilver
08-02-2006, 04:11 PM
Black stompy should be combined into one word to flow better. This deck should be called Blompy.

Phantom
08-02-2006, 04:28 PM
Black stompy should be combined into one word to flow better. This deck should be called Blompy.

I think you mean Blumpkin.

quicksilver
08-02-2006, 04:39 PM
I think you mean Blumpkin.

No blumpkin is way better than this deck.

xsockmonkeyx
08-02-2006, 05:21 PM
i deleted my list as it was less developed than than one currently being displayed.

i wasnt having too much trouble with the amount of black mana if the priests were in the mix. every now and then id have to wait to cast a juzam but it wasnt unbearably bad. overall the amount of total mana was too small to sustain the 3cc-4cc demands every turn.


one problem i found was the phyrexian war beast synod centurain dissynergy. if they were the only creatures i had then my opponant could kill them both(and a land) by taking out the war beast. 3 for 1 is terrible. i would consider throwing a juzam or two in there if your gonna run the priest of gix too. i know its BB but you can run <3 with the current list's mana base and still be ok. i ran 3-4 i my version but i was ignorant.

i like the scuta at 4cc. i dont like the centurian, su-chi or juzam much. is it too late to splash green and run some erham djinns? its a crazy idea but it might work.

-8 swamp
-4 synod centurian

+4 bayou
+4 fetch
+4 ehrnam djinn


you may have already went over this, but how are the crucibles working out? its great with the wasteland if there is stuff to waste. but in my meta its all goblins and solidarity so nonbasic land is few and far between. if the crucible is there for the city of traitors then i would recommend a crystal vein or two as it offers different flavor and a little flexibility. i like 3 citys 1 crystal vein.

one more thing. i like trinisphere, i understand that it is integral to the deck, but 4 is too many. 3 is the correct number IMO. you will probably disagree and i respect you for it.

lolosoon
08-02-2006, 07:37 PM
Anybody that thinks Unmask is better than Duress is an idiot, strait up.
@Umask choice : cooldude254 propose it, I politely declines. Oh sure, I could have said : ROTFL !! You're soooo n0000bb !!!!1111!! Duress rocks, you idiot !

But, guess what ? I think ppl don't have to flame eachother just due to alter-ego and self-confidence trouble, do they, Mr "The Great" ?!

So, for now, call me an idiot if you want, but, please do it via private messages. At least I might learn some new english insults, and teach you french ones ?!

On topic...


i deleted my list as it was less developed than than one currently being displayed.
Thanks. Still, it's quite perfectible.


-8 swamp
-4 synod centurian

+4 bayou
+4 fetch
+4 ehrnam djinn
hmm... tempting. Adding more non-basic land is not a Pb, and I don't know if the lifeloss from the fetch is really revelant.
But Forestwalk ?

Maybe I'm paranoïd but your opponent first drop is lackey. You only have the Djinn in hand (with some now -quite- useless lock pieces). I'd be disappointed if I were to give him an easy way to hit next turn. And it's just one example...
Can Green provides an awesome SB card, to add in its favor ?



you may have already went over this, but how are the crucibles working out? its great with the wasteland if there is stuff to waste. but in my meta its all goblins and solidarity so nonbasic land is few and far between. if the crucible is there for the city of traitors then i would recommend a crystal vein or two as it offers different flavor and a little flexibility. i like 3 citys 1 crystal vein.
Don't forget recurring Mishra's Factory (and the fact tnat the old sub-optimal version was running Drinkers of Sorrows). I've tried to switch them for Tangle Wires, but in my local meta, Wastelock + 3sphere can owns games by themselves sometimes so I stuck with the Crucibles.


you will probably disagree and i respect you for it.
Wow wait ! Let me read that again... R-E-S-P-E-C-T !?!?

Oh, I see. You're new to the source !! ^__^
So, thank you, and welcome !! :)

SuckerPunch
08-03-2006, 12:30 AM
You could of just used different emails, but that's besides the point. Anybody that thinks Unmask is better than Duress is an idiot, strait up. I shouldn't have to explain myself, it's pretty much self explanatory. The only logic that you gave me is that Unmask gets rid of creatures. Well, black has alot creature destruction, so that's a foolish statement. And ppl play Hymns becuase it could possibly get rid of land cards not becuase of creatures.


Umm, I think you're confused. If you read my post, regarding this deck, I recommended Duress over Unmask.

The deck in which I stated that Unmask was better was the Thrumming Stone/Relentless Rats decks. A deck mind you that played Peat Bogs and tutors and all sort of stuff that uses up first turn mana, a deck that plays plays a ton of mana acceleration precisely because it wants 5 mana to cast Thrumming Stone turn two.

And most importantly of all, a deck that ran 20 Relentless Rats in order to power the combo, even though it never wants more than one in it's opening hand, a deck that also happens to autolose to Meddling Mage. In such a deck, I civily stated that Unmask makes more sense. You responded by calling me an idiot, much as you did now, and didn't even bother to try and justify your position or disprove mine, just decided to call me an idiot. Just as you did in the quote above.

Based on this, and the multiple other times you've proceeded to flame people without provocation, and without bothering to even try and prove a point or disprove theirs, I can reliably conclude that you are in fact six years old.

tsabo_tavoc
08-03-2006, 01:12 AM
Swords should be included in the deck, since 4/4s, or 5/5s might not be huge enough while most stompy decks run Swords or Jitte.
I love Priest of Gix for the "free cast", while I am not sure about 8 4cc Creatures, cutting Synod seems no harm to the deck.

The deck doesn't employ black much as Faerie Stompy does to blue. I doubt its maturity and expect to see further discussions on its Maindeck, Sideboard and matchups.

SuckerPunch
08-03-2006, 02:11 AM
The original list is outdated.

I am currently running Swords in place of Priest of Gix.

And currently I advocate Su-Chi in place of Synod as there are a few rare occasions when your opponent killing off one artifact kills of Synod as well.

And as I said before, the 10th Swamp should be cut for the fourth Trinisphere.

Other than that, the maindeck I am convinced is very close to optimal.

As for the sideboard, there are obvious slots like graveyard hate (tormod's crypt), but one card that I highly endorse is Ankh of Mishra. It's not only castable first turn easily and not only hates on control like winter orb but it also makes fetchlands cost five life which really mauls a lot of decks.


No blumpkin is way better than this deck.

Were you one of the people I mauled three games in a row on MWS with this deck a couple of days ago. You do have a similar name, and you do sound a little bitter. Were you per chance on MWS playing UGW Thres? ;)

tsabo_tavoc
08-03-2006, 02:33 AM
I am worry about the redundancy of 16 mana accels esp for that you have Trinsphere as your main plan which will contradict with Moxes and Rituals in the late game. As you run Cruicibles, Mishra's Factory is a viable choice, probably it can replace Moxes.

Cavius The Great
08-03-2006, 01:09 PM
Umm, I think you're confused. If you read my post, regarding this deck, I recommended Duress over Unmask.

The deck in which I stated that Unmask was better was the Thrumming Stone/Relentless Rats decks. A deck mind you that played Peat Bogs and tutors and all sort of stuff that uses up first turn mana, a deck that plays plays a ton of mana acceleration precisely because it wants 5 mana to cast Thrumming Stone turn two.

And most importantly of all, a deck that ran 20 Relentless Rats in order to power the combo, even though it never wants more than one in it's opening hand, a deck that also happens to autolose to Meddling Mage. In such a deck, I civily stated that Unmask makes more sense. You responded by calling me an idiot, much as you did now, and didn't even bother to try and justify your position or disprove mine, just decided to call me an idiot. Just as you did in the quote above.

Based on this, and the multiple other times you've proceeded to flame people without provocation, and without bothering to even try and prove a point or disprove theirs, I can reliably conclude that you are in fact six years old.


The deck also autoloses to Force of Will or Duress and anything that's considered disruption. Have you even playtested the Rippling Rats deck? I hope you realize that you won't always have a Thrumming Stone by the time you hit 5 mana. That being said, Duress is just as effective as Unmask in any situation that you don't always hit the mana curve precisely. Believe me, it happens alot. There will be situations that your mana will "allow" you to play Duress just as effective as Unmask, without any of its drawbacks.

quicksilver
08-03-2006, 01:13 PM
Were you one of the people I mauled three games in a row on MWS with this deck a couple of days ago. You do have a similar name, and you do sound a little bitter. Were you per chance on MWS playing UGW Thres? ;)

Lols, no. I have never used MWS, especially not after reading the thread about the amusing/not so amusing things that happen there. I wasn't trying to put this deck down, it's just that blumpkin is the shit.

xsockmonkeyx
08-03-2006, 02:48 PM
blumpkin is the shit.

rofl

SuckerPunch
08-03-2006, 05:30 PM
I don't have a clue what blumpkin is.:frown: I feel so out of the loop.

Getting back to topic, one slot I'm considering cutting is Crucible of Worlds.

Don't get me wrong, the card autowins when combined with Wastelands against a big chunk of the field, and has decent synergy with City.

But with only 4 Wastelands, I've been unhappy with it many times.

So the two options are, somehow manage to make room for Factories (I have no clue how without cutting this decks explosiveness down, cutting wastlands, citys or tombs is not an option imo, and the deck needs atleast 13 black sources).

Or drop Crucible and run Jitte or Duress or Priest of Gix in it's place. I think Jitte especially would be a very strong option. Duress would be strong too. Given the changes underwent, I figured it was time to update the original list posted.

So I updated it
-1 Swamp
+1 Trinisphere
-3 Crucible
+3 Jitte/Duress

xsockmonkeyx
08-03-2006, 07:01 PM
I was having similar angst with the current set up. I feel that this deck has so much promise its just missing something.



This is the build that i am currently testing and it looks quite promising. I decided that the current list's mana curve was too steep. This list features more 3cc and Juzams as i found the Centurian and Su-Chi weak overall (especially against threshold). I had to tweak the mana base to account for the djinn's 2BB.

I also moved the crucibles to the sideboard because they werent working well in my meta. I felt they were taking up too many valuable slots to justify them in the main deck. However, they are killer in this deck and are a great sideboard surprise.


[5/5 Phyrexian Stompy]

(land)
10 Swamp
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors - the lower mana curve justified a 3 of
4 Wasteland

(moxes)
3 Chrome Mox
2 Mox Diamond

(mana)
4 Dark Ritual

(equip)
4 Sword of Fire and Ice

(beasts)
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Priest of Gix - Free creature and mana fixer, enables juzams
3 Phyrexian War Beast - Went with 3, found that Id rather have another djinn
4 Phyrexian Scuta
3 Juzam Djinn - Went with the djinn because I want a 2 for 1 trade vs. threshold

(disruption)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere


Sideboard
4 Crucible of Worlds - Feels more comfortable here.
3 Engineered Plague
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Duress

quicksilver
08-03-2006, 07:21 PM
I don't have a clue what blumpkin is.:frown: I feel so out of the loop.

Trust me, you are lucky not to know what blumpkin is.

xsockmonkeyx
08-03-2006, 07:29 PM
But Forestwalk ?

Maybe I'm parano&#239;d but your opponent first drop is lackey. You only have the[Ehrnam] Djinn in hand (with some now -quite- useless lock pieces). I'd be disappointed if I were to give him an easy way to hit next turn. And it's just one example...



how about Nettletooth Djinn? (Never thought id say that)

xsockmonkeyx
08-03-2006, 07:33 PM
Can Green provides an awesome SB card, to add in its favor ?





tsunami?

SuckerPunch
08-03-2006, 07:40 PM
The builds looks pretty solid.

I don't know about running Chrome Mox over Mox Diamond when you're running 30 mana sources though (counting the dark rituals). It seems like you would much rather get rid of lands via Mox Diamond, over threats via Chrome Mox.

Yeah, I really miss Priest of Gix too. It's incredible against combo for one. I just couldn't make room for it in my most recent build.

About the maindecked Engineered Plague, were you having a real hard time against the goblins matchup?

True this deck is forced to take a more defensive role in that one matchup, but between your Chalices, Trinispheres, 4/4s, and SOFIs, it's no where close to a bad matchup for you.

I can't say that I like the BB casting cost of Juzam Djinn, but if you were looking for a bigger body, have you perhaps considered Grinning Demon. It's a 6/6 and more importantly, about 150 a pop cheaper to get a hold of. It's also a very solid creature.

xsockmonkeyx
08-03-2006, 08:07 PM
I agree. I think that 5 moxes are good just not that many chrome moxes. So I went back and changed the mix to 3 diamond 2 chrome for now. The threats have to keep popping up so pitching them to mox early on makes the barrage fizzle out.

Grinning Demon is fine but i like the juzams. The 6/6 vs 5/5 is negligible. as long as it cant be tackled by a threshold Mongoose its all the same to me. The BB is no problem, theres only 3 slots devoted to BB (at 4cc so its not as critical) and theres always Priest of Gix.

Phantom
08-03-2006, 09:14 PM
I def think that you should change the name of the deck to Blumpkin. It's so much more original and badass than "Black Stompy" (look up Blumpkin on Wikipedia if you're clueless). Plus, when you beat somebody, you can yell "Your ass just got BLUMPKINED!", which I pray to god you would never yell otherwise.

Onto the latest (xsockmonkeyx's) build:

1) You can't run Negator without removal. You just can't. I'm a Negator supporter, but sometimes you are going to need to clear a path for him (especially when you can't play him off ritual). May I suggest 4 Rend Fleshes. Perfect for the mana sources and often better than StP here.

2) The manabase is nuts. I'm not crazy about the 4 Wastes (although this is just opinion) when you run no other LD spells. I'd rather see Mishra's in there as extra beats that can pick up equipment. You should def run more Chrome Mox than Diamonds as your manabase can barely even support Diamonds.

3) I think that Jitte is as good as Sword here. Your creatures lack trample, so there will be a lot of chump blocking of your fatties while decks scramble for answers (Negator has trample, but will be blocked like a mofo). Jitte is easier to cast and equip on the same turn, still benifits you when your creature is blocked, can gain you back Dijnn, Tomb, and Scuta life, and can sweep potential blockers out of the way. If you still want to run 4 equipment, I'd suggest a 2/2 split. This also protects you from one needle shutting down 4 cards in your deck.

4) I'm not sure how I feel about Trinishpere and Chalice in the same deck, but I can't really fully comment till I've tried it.

xsockmonkeyx
08-04-2006, 12:01 AM
May I suggest 4 Rend Fleshes. Perfect for the mana sources and often better than StP here.

I used to run them because of those reasons, but they were shot down in the pre-merged forum as being weak. Maybe I should bring them back.





2) The manabase is nuts. I'm not crazy about the 4 Wastes (although this is just opinion) when you run no other LD spells. I'd rather see Mishra's in there as extra beats that can pick up equipment. You should def run more Chrome Mox than Diamonds as your manabase can barely even support Diamonds.

Im not married to the wastes either.


3) I think that Jitte is as good as Sword here. Your creatures lack trample, so there will be a lot of chump blocking of your fatties while decks scramble for answers (Negator has trample, but will be blocked like a mofo). Jitte is easier to cast and equip on the same turn, still benifits you when your creature is blocked, can gain you back Dijnn, Tomb, and Scuta life, and can sweep potential blockers out of the way. If you still want to run 4 equipment, I'd suggest a 2/2 split. This also protects you from one needle shutting down 4 cards in your deck.

It would be an automatic in if the Jitte cost 3 mana. It is in better flavor to many of the mechanics of the deck. But Chalice at 2 shuts the Jitte down. The 2/2 split is a very tempting idea for all the reasons you mentioned.


Heres what the new list would look like per your changes, i quite like it myself actually.

12 Swamp
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors


(moxes)
4 Chrome Mox

(mana)
4 Dark Ritual

(equip)
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawa's Jitte


(beasts)
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Priest of Gix
3 Phyrexian War Beast
4 Phyrexian Scuta
3 Juzam Djinn

(disruption)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Rend Flesh

Moczoc
08-04-2006, 07:12 AM
Has anybody thought of Unmask as a replacement for Duress ..
Some better creatures are waiting out there too. I think this thread is straightly evolving into http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3623&highlight=Mono+black+chalice

SuckerPunch
08-04-2006, 09:50 AM
I don't think so. I mean the deck you linked to has 7 spells in common, and 3 of them are Dark Rituals. Plus the creatures you're running seem much worse.

Back to topic.

Wastelands are critical. Trinisphere is an absolute house in this deck (it's half the reason you run the curve you do, Chalice being the other half), and Wastelands make it even more potent. That's why I would never cut Wastelands.

As for Jitte, yes, for it's CC, it's stronger than SOFI. But it's mainly the casting cost that keeps it from being a 4 of. It's shut down by Chalice for 2 and has poor synergy with Trinisphere. But the other reasons for SOFI is that it draws cards, gives pro red (huge against goblins), and deals 4 extra damage the same turn it's equipped, not a turn later, thus speeding up your kill by one full turn. But if you look at the most recent build, I'm running 4 SOFI and 3 Jitte as well, inspite of a strong urge to run Priest of Gix in Jitte's slot to speed up the clock against combo.

xsockmonkeyx
08-04-2006, 01:28 PM
Some better creatures are waiting out there too.


Drinker of Sorrow was the only good idea from the creatues on that link. It seems like a possible alternative to Negator but I'll have to test it out and see.

Lifeasaperson
08-05-2006, 10:37 AM
If you do decide to run negator after all then you could play Ostracize. I like this card but I haven't tested with it. It seems like it would be very effective.

TheDarkshineKnight
08-05-2006, 11:51 AM
I don't think so. I mean the deck you linked to has 7 spells in common, and 3 of them are Dark Rituals. Plus the creatures you're running seem much worse.

Back to topic.

Wastelands are critical. Trinisphere is an absolute house in this deck (it's half the reason you run the curve you do, Chalice being the other half), and Wastelands make it even more potent. That's why I would never cut Wastelands.

As for Jitte, yes, for it's CC, it's stronger than SOFI. But it's mainly the casting cost that keeps it from being a 4 of. It's shut down by Chalice for 2 and has poor synergy with Trinisphere. But the other reasons for SOFI is that it draws cards, gives pro red (huge against goblins), and deals 4 extra damage the same turn it's equipped, not a turn later, thus speeding up your kill by one full turn. But if you look at the most recent build, I'm running 4 SOFI and 3 Jitte as well, inspite of a strong urge to run Priest of Gix in Jitte's slot to speed up the clock against combo.

Yeah...I'm personally for replacing the Jittes with Priests of Gix, but whatever.

xsockmonkeyx
08-05-2006, 12:59 PM
Has anybody thought of Unmask as a replacement for Duress

Yes, we have been over this before.


If you do decide to run negator after all then you could play Ostracize. I like this card but I haven't tested with it. It seems like it would be very effective.

Alright, a new idea! Unfortunately, Ostracize gets shot down for the same reasons Duress doesnt get mainboarded in this deck: trinisphere and chalice.

It seems like people really want a forced discard in this deck but duress, unmask, and ostracize arent gonna cut it. How about Coercion? I think its the best option out of anything out there because its 3cc, requires 1 black mana and doesnt generate card disadvantage. Although its an overall inferior card, in this deck and card pool it just happens to be a good fit.

Bane of the Living
08-05-2006, 02:25 PM
Isnt Persecute better than Coercion?

SuckerPunch
08-05-2006, 04:20 PM
Good call on getting us thinking about higher cc discard spells, xsocks.

Yes Persecute does seem very very strong.

With a Mox or Dark Ritual, it's easily a second turn play. And it can often wreck the opponent by itself.

I don't like the BB in the casting cost, but the card is strong enough to try and possibly accomidate for later on.

Some testing will have to be done... in the Jitte/Priest of Gix slot.

xsockmonkeyx
08-05-2006, 04:38 PM
Isnt Persecute better than Coercion?

Yes, but isnt Duress better than persecute? :tongue:

lolosoon
08-06-2006, 03:51 PM
Ok, I've started an heavy playtest session and I'll post the results here with some extra explanations. I've tested all matchups with 10 matches, with no SB.

Here the Gauntlet :
Ugw Threshold
Vial Goblins
Deadguy Ale
Mono-W Angel-Stompy
Wu Angel-Stompy
RG Zilla Stompy
Solidarity
IggyPop
Burn
Rifter
Belcher


Threshold : 60 / 40 : Favorable
Note : The build was running 3-4 basic lands

All resides in Mulliganing correctly. Thresh trying to get Needle, Mage, FoW or Daze while you want Chalice, 3Sphere, Wasteland and (sometimes) Crucible.
They can't counter all your lockpieces all the time, and with the manabase, playing around Daze is easy.
Chalice @1 owns the deck, early 3sphere slow it enough to roll over them with 3/4, 4/4 and 5/5 beasts. Which are better than 3/3 'gooses and 4/4 bears.
Needle on SoFI and Wasteland is sometimes painful. Maybe dropping the SB Defense Grid for Powder Kegs would help.
Same goes with the Tormod's Crypts. Leyline of the Void could be an efficient replacement.
I think the red splash can really be more painful than the white one, mainly due to Burn vs Negators and Fire//Ice tapping your 3spheres at EOT.

When going 1st, the win ratio up to 75 / 25, when going second, it drops to 50 / 50.


Goblins : 50 / 50 : Debatable
Note : White Splashed

When going 2nd, Vial then wasteland/port hurts. But it's the same for any decks huh ?
With no creature removal, your only response of a turn 1 Lackey is a fast beatstick, or Factories. Which can be hard to obtain sometimes.
Even with vial out, 3sphere slow they down enough (they can't vial out a ringleader then cast Warchief + Piledriver x2 on the same turn). Goblins minus Speed equal not that good.
In this particuliar matchup, I think 3sphere > Chalice.
When equipped, SoFI can end the game quickly, if they can't set an Alpha Strike ready for the next turn (see 3sphere or low threat count).
But, really, if they get the mad start, it's really hard to race them without removal. Luckily, we have E.Plagues SB (and Needles for Vial).

When going 1st, the win ratio up to 60 / 40, when going second, it drops to 40 / 60.


B/w Homebrew : 50 / 50 : (6 matches out of 10)
Note : Netdecked the Pikula's one that made #2 @Philly

Their disruption really hurt, especially Vindicate which can gets rid of your lockpieces MD. But crucible helps a lot vs heavy LD.
Negator rocks in this matchup and SoFI can take care of all their li'l beasts.
Sure, Jittes could be better, but vs Deadguy Ale, you really want to drop that Chalice @2, more that @1 imho.

I've still have to complete my playtest vs this matchup, but without Vials/Lackey or Daze/FoW, it seems that going 1st or not isn't revelant.


Further statistics will follow shortly...
Stay tuned ! :)

SuckerPunch
08-06-2006, 10:02 PM
Sounds solid.

May I ask, what build are you using. Are you using the build on the first page, or is the Crucible still in the maindeck as opposed to the sideboard. If MDed, how often has it been dead for you.

If not, how has Persecute been, I've been too busy with Fairie Stompy to playtest them. But it sounds strong in theory.

lolosoon
08-07-2006, 05:35 AM
Oh, I forgot to put the decklist ?! Damnit...

Ok, I use the one I've edited page #2, with Crucibles MD. They were shining in 2 of the 3 matchups listed above. Getting Wastelock vs Thresh (when they don't needle it), and a good response to the LD packed in Deadguy (and keep them off splashed colour).
Vs Goblin, recurring Factories was good, but I think the Crucibles would go to SB to switch'em with E.Plagues.

At least, with Negators and City of Traitors MD, Crucible is never a dead card.

I realize I forgot to add some SB clue to the matchups listed, I'm working on it and will update my post soon...

xsockmonkeyx
08-09-2006, 04:50 AM
(decklist deleted, didnt work out)

SuckerPunch
08-09-2006, 07:15 PM
mozac, xsock, all the people trying to find other beaters...

if you're not happy with the current selection of beaters (ie. you see a lot of artifact destruction and such).

i strongly recommend grinning demon over juzam djinn. not only is grinning demon a three turn clock as opposed to a four turn clock for the same cc. but it's also about a buck or two a pop on ebay whereas juzam dzinn runs around 300 dollars.

Cavius The Great
08-10-2006, 10:53 AM
mozac, xsock, all the people trying to find other beaters...

if you're not happy with the current selection of beaters (ie. you see a lot of artifact destruction and such).

i strongly recommend grinning demon over juzam djinn. not only is grinning demon a three turn clock as opposed to a four turn clock for the same cc. but it's also about a buck or two a pop on ebay whereas juzam dzinn runs around 300 dollars.

Grinning Demon is a 6/6, it's still a four turn clock. It deals 18 damage in 3 turns and won't kill your opponent till the fourth.

SuckerPunch
08-10-2006, 11:29 AM
I meant it's a three turn clock against the bulk of the decks in the format.

For me, the big bonus is that it can block and kill an Iwamori of Open Fist and live to tell about it.

Almost every deck in the format deals 2 damage to itself with fetchlands, or force of wills, or in a few cases, ancient tombs... mainly fetchlands though.

Cavius The Great
08-10-2006, 12:04 PM
I meant it's a three turn clock against the bulk of the decks in the format.

For me, the big bonus is that it can block and kill an Iwamori of Open Fist and live to tell about it.

Almost every deck in the format deals 2 damage to itself with fetchlands, or force of wills, or in a few cases, ancient tombs... mainly fetchlands though.

Yea you're right, the majority of decks in Legacy do use fetchlands. I actually used to have a foil Grinning Demon, and sold it to Troll & Toad for 25 bucks like 4 years ago while it was hot. Now it doesn't even go for a fraction of that price. But it is a decent alternative to Juzam Djinn. I just frown upon budget decks, becuase if a person wanted a playset of Juzams that bad he would get it. All you have to do is save up your money, if you're that dedicated.

worsel
08-10-2006, 04:40 PM
I have a question.

Say you play a Chalice set for 1 or 2, or play 2 Chalices with one set for 1 and the other for 2, then obviously your opponent can no longer play any spells that cost 1cc or 2cc (duh)...

But, if you then play a Trinisphere, does that mean that your opponent can now play all his 1cc and 2cc spells for 3 mana?

If so, you'd be better off not playing the Trinisphere... am I right?

If so, the Chalices and Trinispheres are kind of anti-synergistic.

quicksilver
08-10-2006, 04:43 PM
I have a question.

Say you play a Chalice set for 1 or 2, or play 2 Chalices with one set for 1 and the other for 2, then obviously your opponent can no longer play any spells that cost 1cc or 2cc (duh)...

But, if you then play a Trinisphere, does that mean that your opponent can now play all his 1cc and 2cc spells for 3 mana?

If so, you'd be better off not playing the Trinisphere... am I right?

If so, the Chalices and Trinispheres are kind of anti-synergistic.

Trinisphere has no interaction with chalice.

Chalice counters things with converted mana cost of X.
Currently in the game there is no way to change the converted mana cost of a spell.
Trinisphere makes them pay more for the spell, but it does not change the converted mana cost. (FoW also always has a converted mana cost of 5, even if you pay zero (or three) mana for it)

SuckerPunch
08-10-2006, 05:53 PM
also, another thing of importance is that you can infact play a chalice countering all 1cc spells even if you already have a trinisphere in play.

you just announce that X is one when you are casting it, and still pay 3 mana.

so chalice and trinisphere have perfect synergy together.

that's why i kind of want to run trinisphere in fairie stompy too.

xsockmonkeyx
08-10-2006, 07:28 PM
i strongly recommend grinning demon over juzam djinn. not only is grinning demon a three turn clock as opposed to a four turn clock for the same cc. but it's also about a buck or two a pop on ebay whereas juzam dzinn runs around 300 dollars.


Is this preference based on play testing? ive found the djinn to be the slightly better choice overall (by a nose). essentially, theyre the same thing to be perfectly honest. IMO if you have the djinns then run them and if you dont then run demons. If you dont have the djinns dont buy them to make this deck because they are not worth spending the the money.

SuckerPunch
08-10-2006, 10:34 PM
No I haven't tested either Grinning Demon or the 800 dollar rare, as I don't think either belongs in this particular deck, both have BB in the cc which sucks IMO. I'm just saying, if you're going to run one, why not run one that usually wins the game one turn quicker.

Also a red/green land destruction list on another thread and all the recent discussion of Ponza got me thinking if we should be running Bloodstained Mires, Polluted Delta and Bad Lands along with stone rain and Avalanche Riders as one of our threats, to interact even better with Trinisphere and Wastelands and even Crucible.

I think it could be very strong.

Here's a quick and dirty list...

Ponza Stax

//Mana
1 Swamp
2 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bad Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wastelands
4 Mox Diamond
4 Dark Ritual

//Threats
4 Stone Rain
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Phyrexian Scuta
2 Phyrexian War Beast
3 Avalanche Riders
3 Covetous Dragon

//Disruption
4 Chalice of the Void (Could be Tangle Wire)
3 Trinisphere
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives

TheDarkshineKnight
08-11-2006, 11:44 AM
So, uh, is there any particular reason you're running Stone Rain over Sinkhole?

SuckerPunch
08-11-2006, 12:12 PM
Take a look at the mana curve for this deck (focus your attention on the lands in particular). It should be pretty obvious. ;)

worsel
08-11-2006, 12:27 PM
also, another thing of importance is that you can infact play a chalice countering all 1cc spells even if you already have a trinisphere in play.

you just announce that X is one when you are casting it, and still pay 3 mana.

so chalice and trinisphere have perfect synergy together.

that's why i kind of want to run trinisphere in fairie stompy too.

So am I correct in thinking that the converted mana cost of Chalice is always 0, and therefore with a Trinisphere on the board, I would always just pay 3 mana to play a Chalice, no matter what I want X to be? In other words, is it true that you can simply play the Chalice for 3 mana and announce that X is any value you want (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7... whatever you want!)?

:eek:

quicksilver
08-11-2006, 12:44 PM
So am I correct in thinking that the converted mana cost of Chalice is always 0, and therefore with a Trinisphere on the board, I would always just pay 3 mana to play a Chalice, no matter what I want X to be? In other words, is it true that you can simply play the Chalice for 3 mana and announce that X is any value you want (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7... whatever you want!)?

:eek:

No, the converted mana cost of chalice is not always zero. When a card has X in it's casting cost, X is always considred zero when calculating the converted mana cost, except when the spell is on the stack, in which case the converted mana cost is calculated using whatever x is.

So if there is a trinisphere out and you want X to be 5, then while playing it, it has a converted mana cost of 10, and thus no interaction with trinisphere. If you want X to be zero you anounce X as zero, then trinisphere makes you pay three for it, and it comes into play with zero counters. If you want X to be one then you annouce that X is one, trinisphere makes you pay three for it and it comes into play with 1 counter on it. If you announce X to be 2 or more trinisphere does nothing and you can ignore it (that is assumeing you don't have like multiple helm of awakenings out).

So in short Trinisphere and Chalice have absolutly no unusual interacting. The only interaction they have is what any cards would have, trinisphere get's countered if there is a chalice for 3 out. You simply have to pay more mana for a chalice for 1 or less if there is a trinisphere out.

tsabo_tavoc
08-11-2006, 11:28 PM
I think it could be very strong.

Here's a quick and dirty list...

Ponza Stax



I donnot think it is the right way to improve the deck. Land destruction is good only combo with Trinsphere and CotV, while it slows down your clock, and kick out your CA-gaining cards like SoF&I and Crucibles.

xsockmonkeyx
08-12-2006, 01:07 AM
I think it could be very strong.

Here's a quick and dirty list...

//Mana
1 Swamp
2 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bad Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wastelands
4 Mox Diamond
4 Dark Ritual

//Threats
4 Stone Rain
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Phyrexian Scuta
2 Phyrexian War Beast
3 Avalanche Riders
3 Covetous Dragon

//Disruption
4 Chalice of the Void (Could be Tangle Wire)
3 Trinisphere
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives


A couple of quick thoughts:

I dont think there is enough artifacts (or mana to be honest) for 3 Dragons, maybe 1-2. IMO Id rather see something like Flametongue Kavu to support the Negator. Right now the list has plenty of beatdown threats but its missing removal.

I would ditch the E.E. I dont think the mana base could support the BR enough of the time for the explosives to be fully effective. Moreover, i would consider adding more Warbeasts, some Su-Chi, Equips or other colorless mana threats if you have the space. When your colored mana is stretched thin its nice to have a baddy thats easy to cast.

SuckerPunch
08-12-2006, 02:49 PM
All great points. I'll try out all of those changes.

Clark Kant
10-02-2006, 05:16 PM
Is all work on this deck dead?

lolosoon
10-03-2006, 11:29 AM
Is all work on this deck dead?

I've put aside my testings mainly due to the lack of Legacy tourney and/or players next to my area.

I've tried to sum up some matchups HERE (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=82334&postcount=90) with this Phyrexian Stompy list (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=80131&postcount=29).

For now, the deck have big consistency issues. All resides in the opening hand and the disruption packed into you opponent's one. Dark Rituals & Mox Diamonds are subpar cards with chalice@1 or 3sphere on the table, but they really help getting early pressure and/or disruptives pieces which are the main goal of this deck.

But if it inspire you for the Black 5/3 thread, go on !! ^^

Clark Kant
12-29-2006, 03:53 PM
Which build did you run?

Consistency problems I could see occuring when you run stuff like The Abyss along with nonartifact creatures and things like that. But I don't think the build here has much antisynergy. Ritual is always a turn one card, after that it's a bad card in any black deck except maybe Pox.

Happy Gilmore
12-30-2006, 12:30 AM
your artifact agro deck is crying for Volrath's Stronghold. Its a perfect fit for the deck in just about every way. Best as a two of.