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Reverend Damaged
08-06-2006, 04:57 PM
EDIT: There is 3 deck lists in this post. Each one is an actual tested version of the deck, with the third one being the final. If you'd like to view the final, please scroll to the bottom of the post.



Alright guys, it had been 3 sets (Guildpact, Dissension, Coldsnap) since I'd played a tournament (R.I.P. Gamer's Guild and all it's trading-with-noobs glory). Now that I've got some more free time to travel, I've played 2 in the last 2 weeks - one in Mass. and one in Syracuse in the Dual Land Draft tournament. This is the deck I played at the Dual Land Draft, some of you may have seen it. It's a G/u "Secret Force" build, though it doesn't actually play Verdent Force in it. It doesn't play dragons in it either as the name implies.

Someone who posts on here under the name Jesus was very interested in the deck and offered to give me a hand with it as he suggested a third color (white), which I think is a good idea as well.

Here is the initial list as well as card choices, and some results against some of the decks I played:

****
Dragonforce (ver 1)

Creatures:
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Fyndhorn Elves
4x Elvish Spirit Guide

4x Quirion Ranger
4x Wall of Blossoms
2x Eternal Witness

4x Ravenous Baloth
2x Stampeeding Wilderbeests
2x Simic Skyswallower
1x Kamahl, Fist of Krosa

Spells:
4x Brainstorm
4x Natural Order
2x Naturalize

Land:
4x Wasteland
3x Gaea's Cradle
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Tropical Island
4x Forest
****

**Sideboard**
4x Defense Grid
4x Phyrexian Furnace
4x Pithing Needle
2x Trygon Predator
1x Naturalize
**Sideboard**


Mini-Tournament report (Dual Land Draft 8/5/06) [This report is going to be fairly vague but will include the strong points and weak points as I can remember them. I should of taken notes, but didn't think so many people there were going to like the deck, not enough for me to post it anyway].



Round 1: Mono-black w/ shade and stinkweed imp? 1-1-1

Game 1: I lose the die roll (this happens every single round except round 6), and am on the draw. Turn 1 I play a fetch and say go. He drops a shade on his second turn after, and passes. EOT I Brainstorm. Realizing he's probably packing edict, I grab a couple 1 drops and play them on my second turn with the inclusion of a forest. I pass the turn to him, and he draws and starts swinging in with the shade and pumping it. My next couple of turns go Baloth, Natural Order away a 1cc for Simic. Game over. He had nothing.

Game 2: I'm on the draw again, and he has no first turn. Awesome. I play a bird after my draw and pass. No shade from him this time, but Ritual -> Pestilence. Arg. He passes. I end up dropping a wall before passing, with mana for Brainstorm. His turn 3 consists of Stinkweed Imp. Stinkweed Imp? What the hell? He passes. EOT Brainstorm. Next turn I Order the bird for Simic, even though imp kills it. His turn comes around and he casts Chalice for 1. That's a problem. I have 2 elves in my hand. Next turn, Baloth. Next turn after that, Baloth. He plays a Chalice for 2. I swing in with everything doing a decent chunk of damage. Pass. He draws. Perish. From there I don't get enough threats fast enough and he keeps getting Perish, even though after all my Baloths hit the yard I was at 30. The game is 2 minutes short of a draw when he casts Greater Harvester. I have no Spirit Guides left and all 1cc guys in my deck. GG.

Game 3: We don't even have enough time to shuffle. Draw.


Round 2: PeterRotten playing Burning Tog (0-2)

Game 1: I resolved several threats, only to see burning wish for Perish. Counter counter counter. Good game.

Game 2: I resolve a couple of furnaces, as well as 3 defense grids. I see no wastelands to slow him down. The couple of threats I do drop against him, he rips the burning wish for Perish. From here on out the game is long. I get beat down with 2 Nightscape Familiars. I'm at 13 or so. Hoping to rip Baloths is all I'm doing at that point. He gets 2 togs on the board. Beats me to 4 I believe and I have 1 blocker. I'm hoping to rip another one, and in comes Elvish Spirit Guide to save the day. Matt FoF's on his turn. Into another FoF, into a Burning Wish for Perish (which I removed from the game with furnace, how amazing is THAT?). I lose. Again.


Round 3: U/g/b/r Threshhold Varient (2-0)

Game 1: I'm on the draw again. My turn 1, land, critter. Go. His next turn, Dark Confidant. Great. He passes. I play a Wall of Blossoms. He goes. Draws a card, plays a land, and says go. I Brainstorm on his end step. He COUNTERS IT. Amazing. My next turn, Natural Order the 1 drop for Simic Sky Swallower. Game is over. He can't do anything about it.

Game 2: He goes first. Plays Underground Sea. My turn comes around. Wasteland. He goes. Volcanic Island. Passes to me. I drop land, elf. Go. His turn comes around. He misses a land drop. He passes. Defense Grid, Wasteland. Shortly after I beat him with Simic.



Round 4: Watcher487 playing his crazy land deck. (1-2)

Game 1: I don't remember this that well, but I know it was long, and I lost. Humility dropped, and I couldn't find a naturalize.

Game 2: I play a bird. He plays a land and plows the bird. Ho ho. I waste his land. I repeat this process again next turn. He has a mox diamond and an Exploration in play. I Naturalize Exploration. He's got 2 mana. Soon I get Trygon Predator active. Then I order. I win.

Game 3: I get a 1 land hand with a ton of 1 drops and an Order. I decide to run with it. Turn 2 I have out 3 1cc critters. I forget about Star Storm. They all die before I can use them. He gets Crucible/Exploration/fetchland and I get mana screwed. Had I parised down to 6 and had a better hand, I could of won the match easily with the Naturalizes, Trygons, and graveyard hate. I never saw a single sideboard card that game either. Go go gadget bad decisions.


Round 5: Angel Stompy (2-1)

Game 1 - I run this guy over completely with turn 2 Simic.

Game 2 - He plows my early critters and gets out a Priest with Jitte on it. I lose.

Game 3 - This game is long and drawn out. He makes several play mistakes, one I made the mistake of letting him take back. He played a second Jitte when the first one was being a problem and after setting it down and paying for it says "wait, I can't do that". I still beat him with Naturalize, a Simic, and a total of 3 Baloths for life. He gave me 2-0 because he knew had I called him on it, the game would of been over in half the time. Good guy.


Round 6: Obfuscate Freely playing U/g/w threshhold (0-2)

Game 1: I play some little guys and get a Baloth in, he plows, I sac it, and somehow on the next turn manage to Natural Order. I knew he had a plow in his hand, because he didn't counter the spell. I get Simic Sky Swallower and he just says "You're my hero". The Sky Swallower swings through a couple times before being blocked by mystic enforcer. This ends up being a long game, but he's got counters to stop my threats left in the deck while beating on me with Werebears. Close, but I lose.

Game 2: This game I get a couple of Furnaces out against him, and he took out his Pithing Needles, so I was hoping I could rock this game because of it. Unfortunately, that second Furnace didn't come out until he had already been dumping multiple cards in the yard a turn, and I couldn't get enough threats against him. I held a Defense grid in my hand from turn 1 to turn 3, because I was trying to waste his land and still have the mana to cast it while avoiding Daze (FoW was welcome because that's like a Hymn to Tourach for me). That was a huge mistake, as playing it at least would of set him back a turn had he Dazed it. I made a lot of mistakes that day, and I dont know if that would of saved me had I not messed up with the defense grid, but regardless, I lose again. He played Portent against me though, so I don't even care. That was awesome.



Card Choices in the original deck (I saved this for after for specific reasons - as there is changes in the current deck list [before adding white])

Mana Critters:
4 Birds of Paradise - This guy is good because he is part of the 4 mana on turn 2 engine, as well as a color fixer.

4 Fyndhorn Elf - He's obvious. Same as above except he swings.

4 Elvish Spirit Guide - Helps you get turn 2 Natural Order or Baloth. Both plays are AMAZING against Goblins (Which I expected to play and didn't even play against once).

Misc. Critters:

Wall of Blossoms - He replaces himself. He blocks. He gets ordered away. Stops Nimble Mongoose. Helps against Goblins. Shuts out Silver Knight. Awesome.

Quirion Dryad - with the 3 Cradles in the deck, as well as 4 guides and 8 1cc Mana guys, this has 2 purposes: Second turn Natural Order (when paired with a mana critter and Cradle), and it helps against wasteland. A lot. Also lets me swing with Baloth, then untap for blocks.

Eternal Witness - This guy was in here mostly because one of the final cards I added was Stampeeding Wilderbeests. Wilderbeests < Eternal Witness. The Eternal Witness count is currently 4 (-2 Wilderbeests, +2 Witness).

The beaters:
4 Ravenous Baloth - This guy is good because he's A) A 4/4 for 4, and his ability is ridiculous in a lot of match-ups. Unfortunately, I put Stampeeding Wilderbeests in instead of Stampeeding Serow (who is also a beast), which actually lost me a game because I couldn't sac the Wilderbeests. I dropped the ball on that one.

2 Stampeeding Wilderbeests - This guy is a 5/4 trample that is good with Witness and with Wall of Blossoms. Unfortunately, I rarely had to go into a game so late that recurring witness over and over again would help. When I did go into late game like that, this guy just got killed. A lot. I've taken him out for 2 more Eternal Witness (-2 Wilderbeests, +2 Eternal Witness)

2 Simic Sky Swallower - This is the best creature that could ever be Natural Ordered for. If you know what this does, there's no reason I should have to explain this. He Flies. He Tramples. He doesn't get plowed. He's amazing.

1 Kamahl, Fist of Krosa - I boarded this guy out in every single game I played. Literally. He's horrible. Everytime I ordered, and looked through my deck, I wished he was Penumbra Wurm so I could dodge Perish. Replacing him with Penumbra Wurm. (-1 Kamahl (because he's terrible), +1 Penumbra Wurm)



The spells:
4 Natural Order - This is a no brainer.

4 Brainstorm - This is the best card in the deck. Most of the games I won were because I brainstormed into exactly what I needed for the win. It also helps you dodge duress, and put cards from your hand that you want to order for on top of your library (a play I also did 3 times yesterday).

2 Naturalize - Good, but not good enough. In the matchup with Obfuscate Freely, the first game, which I was hoping I could take had I drawn some threats, was gummed up by 2 Naturalize draws. In a row. This is being replaced with Trygon Predator, because at least he can attack, block, and kill more than 1 thing should I need it. (-2 Naturalize, +2 Trygon Predator)

Mana Base:
This should be pretty obvious. Wasteland helps keep tempo, and is great with Witness, as are Sac Lands. Mana base is pretty solid since the deck plays almost no blue.





After the changes above, here is the revised Deck List:

****
Dragonforce (Ver 1.5)

Creatures:
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Fyndhorn Elves
4x Elvish Spirit Guide

4x Quirion Ranger
4x Wall of Blossoms
4x Eternal Witness
2x Trygon Predator

4x Ravenous Baloth
2x Simic Skyswallower
1x Penumbra Wurm

Spells:
4x Brainstorm
4x Natural Order

Land:
4x Wasteland
3x Gaea's Cradle
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Tropical Island
4x Forest
****

**Sideboard**
4x Defense Grid
4x Phyrexian Furnace
4x Pithing Needle
3x Naturalize
**Sideboard**


That's the current deck list for the 2 color version - however as suggested white would be an excellent color to add to the deck for the addition of Loxodon Hierarch over Baloth. Possibly STP as well.

Problem is - I don't know what to remove for the STP's, or if they're even needed. I'm thinking of keeping them simply in the board, since the deck just plows over aggro to begin with (No pun intended). But while running 4 witness that could just be stupid.


Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. I'm pretty busy all the time, but I think I want to take this to Gen Con, even if it's just to play a side event to get a little more practice in. I don't have magic work station but I can always get it should anyone want to test, or if people want to test this amongst themselves. I never post on here, I just lurk, and I'm pretty rusty after 8 months of not playing, but I'm far from inexperienced. Just ask PeterRotten. Even though he'll probably describe anything I've ever played as a "Franky deck".


I know this post is extremely lengthy, and if there's any typos please excuse me because I hurt my hand the other day and this already took me hours to type up. Ick. >_<

Thanks in advance.



UPDATE: Here is a deck variation running black and blue, rather than just blue. I know that the post says that the third color was more than likely white in it's title, but I've put into consideration everyone's suggestions and have come up with this deck list. I have not tested it at all yet. It's just some ideas.



****
Dragonforce (Ver 2 - current decklist)

Creatures:
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Fyndhorn Elves
4x Elvish Spirit Guide

3x Quirion Ranger
4x Wall of Blossoms
3x Eternal Witness
1x Indrik Stomphowler

4x Loxodon Hierarch (that's the elephant, right? I think I spelled it wrong).
2x Simic Skyswallower

Spells:
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Brainstorm
4x Natural Order

Land:
4x Wasteland
3x Gaea's Cradle
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Tropical Island
4x Savannah
****

**Sideboard**
4x Defense Grid
2x Phyrexian Furnace
2x Tormod's Crypt
4x Pithing Needle
3x Naturalize
**Sideboard**


EDIT: Alright, I edited the above decklist to the decklist I am currently running. Thanks to Brainstorm sculpting my hand and searching for me, and Swords to Plowshares + Eternal Witness = GG against decks that try to race my Simic Sky Swallower, I believe this is the "almost" optimal build for the deck currently. Yes, running black is powerful, but you might as well be playing Rock to run black. The deck needs minor tweaking, such as a Spiritmonger to avoid Perish (this will be tested, along with a single Bayou), and possibly something other than Brainstorm for searching (I'm thinking Impulse, as several games I found myself digging for a very specific card.).

I've responded to and bumped my post with a mini tournament report, since it was only 3 rounds and top 8 (I lost in top 8, first game to a play mistake, second game to turn 2 Akrome + Animate Dead tricks).

SuckerPunch
08-06-2006, 09:56 PM
Wow, that build looks awesome. I love Trygon Predator.

Have you considered Ancient Tomb per chance, it'll make the second turn Natural Order that much more likely.

If you add in the 4 Tombs, this deck's core structure...

4x Birds of Paradise
4x Fyndhorn Elves
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Quirion Ranger
4x Natural Order
3x Gaea's Cradle
4x Ancient Tomb

will be identical to a deck posted on the create a deck contest. It ran Trinisphere and Chalice to hate out combo, thres and goblins instead of splashing blue for Brainstorm though. I think that's a great way to go too.

Di
08-06-2006, 10:41 PM
If you're running blue, Why not Intuition? It fetches Natural Orders, which is nice.

Reverend Damaged
08-07-2006, 12:08 AM
@ SuckerPunch: Thanks. Trygon Predator is my favorite creature printed since, well, since I can remember. I don't know why I didn't maindeck him in the initial list.

As for Ancient Tomb, that's definately not a bad idea. If I were shooting more for speed then the deck currently is, maybe cut the wastelands for tombs? If I power out 4 drops on turn 2 in almost every game, I might not have to worry about wasting lands.



@Diablos: I'll toy with intuition. I like the idea, more so in the initial build that still had Wilderbeests. If I added a Serow/Wilderbeest, added a Witness, and changed out the Brainstorms for intuitions, I think that'd be fun. That'd also work well with the suggested addition of Ancient Tombs.

Although, I don't know if you meant adding Intuition in place of Brainstorm or in addition to it. Maybe sneak a couple in? That'd really help me with sideboard fetching too, now that I think about it.


What do you guys think of Mana Leak? Think that's worth any deck space at all?

Di
08-07-2006, 03:04 AM
@Diablos: I'll toy with intuition. I like the idea, more so in the initial build that still had Wilderbeests. If I added a Serow/Wilderbeest, added a Witness, and changed out the Brainstorms for intuitions, I think that'd be fun. That'd also work well with the suggested addition of Ancient Tombs.

Although, I don't know if you meant adding Intuition in place of Brainstorm or in addition to it. Maybe sneak a couple in? That'd really help me with sideboard fetching too, now that I think about it.

I didn't intend to put Intuition in place of anything, I just suggested it. I'm not sure what I'd cut for it really, as I've never played the deck. Also, this is kind of stretching the manabase, but I personally think this deck should take a G/b/u route, because counters are absolutely awful for this deck. Black gives you Duress and Cabal Therapy to force through Natural Order or Intuition, and also gives you Engineered Plague for the Goblins matchup, as well as solidifies your combo matchup a bit. But at G/b/u it's a risk. I don't have a list or anything, but it's worth a try.

jeremys
08-07-2006, 10:15 AM
Just a thought, if you're doing to go 2, or even 3 colors why not try lotus petal instead of ESG? If you're just tossing the ESG for mana petal does the same thing and could provide some color fixing. Also maybe vine trellis instead of wall of blossoms. It won't give you any card draw obviously, but it will do something if it doesn't have to block. I'm not saying these are good choices per se, but might be worth thinking about.

Watcher487
08-07-2006, 10:49 AM
Just a thought, if you're doing to go 2, or even 3 colors why not try lotus petal instead of ESG? If you're just tossing the ESG for mana petal does the same thing and could provide some color fixing. Also maybe vine trellis instead of wall of blossoms. It won't give you any card draw obviously, but it will do something if it doesn't have to block. I'm not saying these are good choices per se, but might be worth thinking about.
ESG provides itself as a Natural Order target especially in the late game. Wall of Blossoms gives this deck is just better because of the card drawing.

If you want to add another mana producer your probably better off with adding Wall of Roots cause it produces mana like Vine Trellis but it also can stay untapped for blocking even when you need the mana.

Phantom
08-07-2006, 11:28 AM
First of all, I think you should be running at least one Ichneumon Druid to fetch vs combo decks.

Second, I think Indrik Stomphowler might be better than Trygon Predator.

Third, I completely agree that this deck needs black more than it needs blue. Therapy is great since you run so many sac creatures, and you def need to rip counters and StP from the opponents hand. You can probably support both colors with a good manabase and Bop.

Lastly, is it possible to build a deck with Survival and Natural Order?

Reverend Damaged
08-07-2006, 12:32 PM
@Diablos: That's a very good point, running black for pro-active disruption. Plague in the board would be good, but I don't know about using the board space because from what I've tested this deck murders Goblins to begin with, but there's more testing to be done.

@jeremys: Watcher487 is right - ESG ends up being a target for order late game, and actually casting it saved me several times in the tournament. I even beat someone down with it the other night in testing. Vine Trellis would only give me green mana, so he wouldn't really be adding or fixing anything as the deck makes the mana I need. Thank you for your suggestions, however. Every idea helps.

@Phantom: I've got the druid, and was considering running him incase I can sneak him in against Solidarity, etc. Is there anything else in the field he's really good against?

I will test Indrik Stomphowler at some point.

And yes, it is possible. When I played in Mass. the other week, second round I went up against a guy playing Survival. I was playing my R/G Sliver control deck, which with Mirri Cat Warrior, Jitte, burn, and maindeck Naturalize just wrecks survival, most of the time. Especially after graveyard hate post board. He was survivalling away rootwallas until he just went "cradle, Natural Order". I had enough burn with an FTK to kill a Verdent Force. He gets Phantom Nishoba and I scoop. Arg.

greyfell
08-07-2006, 07:46 PM
I have a question. I've noticed that newer Survival decks and things like that are starting to run Stomphowler over the more usual Viridian Zealot. Can someone explain why that is? Thanks

As for the deck, I'm amazed. It's actually a cool Natural Order deck that works. I think the Switch to Tomb over Wasteland would definitely eliminate your need to have wastelands. A ridiculously large, can't be swords creature is disruption enough I'd think.

AngryTroll
08-07-2006, 10:45 PM
To Survival for Zealot, cast it, and blow up an artifact costs 1GGGG. To Survival and cast Stomphowler costs 4GG, but you end up with a 4/4 Beast in play. The one mana difference is usually offset by the 4/4 body that is left in play. There are times when you really want the lower cost of Zealot, but it is usually offset by the times you are grateful for the 4/4 body the Stomphowler leaves behind, and times the 4 life saccing Stomphowler to Baloth produces keep you in the game.

I love the Natural Order list. Penumbra Wurm is a sweet card, and playing one would make my day. Some other cards that I used to run in Natural Order, or Reanimator (same basic idea...cheat huge fat into play for low cost) were Symbiotic Wurm, Spike Weaver, and Phantom Nishoba. Penumbra Wurm and Symbiotic Wurm do similar things, but Symbiotic is more vulnerable to a second Perish, which Penumbra is more vulnerable to Swords to Plowshares.

Are there times when the lifegain off of the Nishoba or the fog effects of the Spike Weaver would warrent their inclusion?

What about cards like Troll Ascetic? It seems like Gro would be one of the hardest non-combo match for this deck, and Troll is strong in that matchup.

Reverend Damaged
08-07-2006, 11:17 PM
I have a question. I've noticed that newer Survival decks and things like that are starting to run Stomphowler over the more usual Viridian Zealot. Can someone explain why that is? Thanks

As for the deck, I'm amazed. It's actually a cool Natural Order deck that works. I think the Switch to Tomb over Wasteland would definitely eliminate your need to have wastelands. A ridiculously large, can't be swords creature is disruption enough I'd think.

I'm glad you like the deck. I am currently working on a deck that not only will include the Stomphowler, but the ancient tombs - cutting wasteland completely. Hopefully I will edit the post shortly with an updated list (though it will be a rough one).



@ AngryTroll: I originally had Nishoba in over Simic (mostly because I didn't even own Simic's at first), but with 4 maindeck Baloth's, Simic is the better choice. I understand he could be added in addition, but I don't want the deck to fold if someone stops my Natural Orders early on, so I'm keeping the Order-up creatures to a minimum and working on beating down with Baloth for the time being. Weaver is a possibility, but against aggro I usually just crush it anyway. Possibly going to beat down with Stomphowler as well soon, regardless of how much I like Trygon Predator (especially in certain match-ups like Ravager). At least if I order for Stomphowler, his effect is instant AND he's massive.

Grow at the tournament wasn't tough enough to warrant working in trolls, not from what I played anyway. I went 50/50 with 2 grow variants. The version running red I obliterated. The version I played against round 6 I didn't do bad against, I had close games, but just came out the loser. I'd like to try the match up again now that I've made changes to the deck for the better. Should it become a problem, I would consider working in troll of course. Or even better, Blastoderm. Since he kills bears and mongeese dead.

Reverend Damaged
08-08-2006, 02:56 PM
I just posted a revised list using the suggestions given. Let me know what you guys think. Is there more cards I should be considering? Should I have left the Brainstorms in at all? Suggestions so far have all been great and appreciated.

greyfell
08-09-2006, 09:43 AM
hmm, Might be personal opinion, but in a deck like this isnt Cabal Therapy > Duress? YOu cannot grab creatures with duress, and with all the small creatures in your deck for flashback, as well as Eternal Witness, I'd think Therapy could be a real hand wrecker, especially for a opponent who's just flat out netdecking something with no changes. Nothing like knowing their decklist before you even start :)

AngryTroll: Thanks for the heads up on stomphowler. I like your suggestion of Symbiotic wurm, I ran it too in a reanimator deck and it was good for me. Especially with Therapy.:wink:

Phantom
08-09-2006, 12:00 PM
I like the changes you made. Here are some thoughts with lovely numbers in front of them:

1) I agree that Therapy is better than Duress here.

2) I'd replace Q. Ranger with Wall of Roots. I only really like the Q with huge mana producers.

3) I'd cut the Brainstorms and 3 Tropical Islands. Run a couple more fetches and you'll still should have enough blue sorces to hardcast Simic if you need to. I think I'd replace the brainstorm with Living Wish. There are a ton of great options in green and black like Hypy, Withered Wretch, Loaming Shaman, Bone Shreder, Sex Monkey, etc.

4) Unless there's a huge reason you're running Baloth, I'd replace him with Stampeding Serow. He's a must remove if you have Witness or Blossoms out.

5) Putrefy is the maindeck removal you should be running I think.

6) Isn't City of Solitude > Defense Grid. Also, you need something against control decks since board sweepers are going to wreck you. Probably Winter Orb.

scrumdogg
08-09-2006, 02:14 PM
I've been testing a similar concept and Natural Order into Simic Sky Swallower has been awesome, as has the ability to run both STP & Witness (course I try to fit that into every deck I play...and where did I put my Genesis?....). Ahem, on target, Quirion Ranger does silly things with small mana producers as well. One Ranger + 1 mana producer + 1 Forest is 4 mana that turn = not too shabby. It also untaps your huge monstrosities to block for the low cost of returning a forest to your hand... Plus, it makes a dandy Natural Order target. That being said, I don't think I'd run 4 in the deck, 3 seems like the right number because you want to drop him after the mana producer & he isn't as good late game.

Therapy is definitely better than Duress, although Duress in the sideboard helps you out quite a bit versus combo as Duress & Witness is pretty good as well (especially with Ranger to re-use a black mana source later in the game - Turn 4 or after). This is where ESG shines as well, letting you Witness + Duress/Therapy on Turn 3, which is much more important than Turn 4 versus combo, but later in a game, you can't attack/block/sac to Natural Order a Lotus Petal. I tried, the opponent objected.....

Putrefy is nice but in the same colors for the same cost you have Deed....which not only hits Mongeese & Enforcers but all your opponents Goblins....just a thought.....

Phantom
08-09-2006, 02:16 PM
Putrefy is nice but in the same colors for the same cost you have Deed....which not only hits Mongeese & Enforcers but all your opponents Goblins....just a thought.....

And all of the decks mana producers.

SuckerPunch
08-09-2006, 02:33 PM
I would cut Wall of Blossoms or something for Iwamori of Open Fist. He's basically natural order 5-8 in that he's a massive beater almost as fast as Sky Swallower, for the same amount of mana.

Also have you given any thought to 4 Chalices. A Chalice at one kills Thres, a Chalice at 2 kills Solidarity, Deadguy, hurts goblins and serves many other functions. It's worth a shot with a curve like this and all the acceleration.

scrumdogg
08-09-2006, 02:38 PM
And all of the decks mana producers.


Against the decks you need to worry about - Goblins & Threshold primarily - your mana producers are either dead or irrelevant, go read the tournament report & test against them. Putrefy hits one target (only half the targets in UGW Thresh, one of the best & more heavily played decks in the format) & does nothing to Goblin Lackey until they have a board full of death facing you down. What matchups do you see Putrefy being more effective than Deed? Seriously? And why? I'm not trying to flame you, I'm trying to understand your reasoning & help decide the best card for the deck.

Phantom
08-09-2006, 04:25 PM
Against the decks you need to worry about - Goblins & Threshold primarily - your mana producers are either dead or irrelevant, go read the tournament report & test against them. Putrefy hits one target (only half the targets in UGW Thresh, one of the best & more heavily played decks in the format) & does nothing to Goblin Lackey until they have a board full of death facing you down. What matchups do you see Putrefy being more effective than Deed? Seriously? And why? I'm not trying to flame you, I'm trying to understand your reasoning & help decide the best card for the deck.

While I completely agree that Putrefy is merely ok vs. Thresh (hitting only Mage, Needle, and Werebear in the white splash), and Deed is the bees knees here, I'm not sure how great it will be vs. Goblins. What I'm worried about is our recovery time after a Deed. We are going to have to drop some walls/acceleraters both to stall Goblins and to power out an effective Deed. Basically, after we blow it, we can't cast Natural Order, since nothing survived, so we have to hope for a Baloth or Stomphowler to come down and stop Goblins second wave. We also run little draw to help us get to gems post Deed.

I really think that this is where Living Wish would shine. It grabs Loaming Shaman or Wretch vs Thresh and something like Plague Spitter vs Goblins (here is where it would help to go up to 8 walls).

Still, I won't deny how powerful Deed is. I think if that is the dirction the deck goes in it might need some retooling to recover better.

(Also, Putrefy is pretty useful against Goblins. It's an instant, so it can shutdown broken Warchief plays. And of most use is smashing a Vial on turn two before it can get nasty.)

quicksilver
08-09-2006, 04:30 PM
Deed is the bees knees here

Maybe you should get off your knees and stop juggling balls in your mouth.

Reverend Damaged
08-09-2006, 08:32 PM
I'm really glad this is becoming a hot topic. I'm going to review everyone's suggestions and have a couple deck list variants up over the weekend.


So far:

I like the idea of Deed. I was considering cutting the 2 intuitions for 2 deeds. I know there's a lot of talk about the Goblins game this deck has, but from what I've played this just stomps goblins to begin with. Deed would just be the nail in the coffin.

However, against Thresh deed would be much better, since I wouldnt run into the "I have control with my Simic until Enforcer hits the table" situation as often.

I'll work on a few things and post what I come up with.

scrumdogg
08-10-2006, 01:27 AM
While I completely agree that Putrefy is merely ok vs. Thresh (hitting only Mage, Needle, and Werebear in the white splash), and Deed is the bees knees here, I'm not sure how great it will be vs. Goblins. What I'm worried about is our recovery time after a Deed. We are going to have to drop some walls/acceleraters both to stall Goblins and to power out an effective Deed. Basically, after we blow it, we can't cast Natural Order, since nothing survived, so we have to hope for a Baloth or Stomphowler to come down and stop Goblins second wave. We also run little draw to help us get to gems post Deed.

I really think that this is where Living Wish would shine. It grabs Loaming Shaman or Wretch vs Thresh and something like Plague Spitter vs Goblins (here is where it would help to go up to 8 walls).

Still, I won't deny how powerful Deed is. I think if that is the dirction the deck goes in it might need some retooling to recover better.

(Also, Putrefy is pretty useful against Goblins. It's an instant, so it can shutdown broken Warchief plays. And of most use is smashing a Vial on turn two before it can get nasty.)


I don't believe that you are playing Deed correctly in this situation. While Turn 2 Putrefy on Vial is nice (or on Turn 3+ Warchief), it only hits one target and does nothing to the usual Goblin plan of exploding on your face. The correct way to play Deed is to get it on the board ASAP and then slow play them until YOU are ready to pop Deed. The longer the game goes, the uglier it gets for them with Deed on the board. As soon as you get to Natural Order mana, you can upgrade one of your guys (or cast a Baloth...), even if they have goblins on the board...they won't have many (unless they are a moron) as they won't overextend into Deed. They might get one turn of vomiting goblins onto the table & swinging, but since you have other guys that can block key Piledrivers...it isn't worth the Goblin player losing everything next turn when you implode the world. You also play Eternal Witness, which combos nicely with Deed & Natural Order & Baloth & stuff....

insertnamehere
08-13-2006, 11:00 AM
I recently played watcher487 in a Tournament in West Springfield. What a surprise, I lost to that deck also. I have since sided 3 tormod's crypts in side and added 4 leyline of the voids to main dack(note: of the 6 games I have played with them main deck, 5-1.) Any deck playing graveyard manipulation will scoop if they don't have anything against it.

Reverend Damaged
08-20-2006, 01:54 PM
Alright guys - I edited the final deck list running with an idea my friend had.


Him: "You don't really want to cut brainstorm, do you?"

Me: "Nope."

Him: "But Duress is a good idea. What about the elephant you wanted to add?"

Me: "Only 2 colors".

Him: "Well make it 3. Then you get swords too"

And so I did. Of course I don't know where swords will fit in the deck unfortunately. But I found a new store to play Magic at, and will get a chance to test this deck out against people come Wednesday night.


My main issue is this: my old deck, when I played Secret Force a couple years ago, maindecked 3 geddons as well as 2 plows (it was those "just incase" cards). If I played the geddons and the plows, would it be worth dropping black? I'll know after testing, but I think this may take the route my old deck did running geddon. I'll know Wednesday night but I'd like some input on the idea. Thank you guys again.

Reverend Damaged
08-28-2006, 08:45 PM
Alright, I brought that final deck list to the 4x Pithing Needle tournament in W. Springfield, Mass. I didn't do too bad, either. Here's a small report on how the deck did.

Round 1 - Confusing.dec (2-0)

Game 1: He plays a Volcanic Island, says go. I play a 1 drop, and pass. He plays an Underground Sea (Grow? Thresh? Tog????) and plays Lightening Greeves (wtf???), he passes. I waste his black source. He goes, plays Bayou, plays Jitte (uhh??), passes. I waste the black source. He plays another land and passes the turn. I play eternal witness and get back wasteland. I forget to waste and play something else. I pass. He misses a land drop. My turn comes. I waste. He gets a land. My turn comes and I'm swinging with little guys and play an Elephant. He finally hits 3 land, and plays Serendib. Greeves. Swings. I waste on my following turn and get 2 Simic Sky Swallowers before the game is over.

Game 2: This guy goes turn 1, Bayou, BoP. I have NO idea what his deck actually is. So at this point, I'm playing Goldfish style. I get out a Simic, and try to smash him to death. I get multiple Elephants (one which gets putrified), and he continues to have to play guys just to block simic. I end the game a few turns later with lethal damage. His creature base is something like: Birds, Trygon Predator, Finkle, Hyppie, and Serendib. I still have no idea what exactly was happening, but there was no counters, he had 7 cards in his hand almost at all times, and still lost. I don't get it.



Round 2: Mono Blue Relic Orb (2-0)

Game 1: I play elves. I maindeck the Stomphowler, I swarm him. Game over.

Game 2: Long game, but I beat him to death with an Elephant even though he has 4 Propaganda's out. GG. I boarded in 3 Naturalize



Round 3: Pox (1-2, though my record here ended up 2-1 [see description])

Game 1: I have no idea how, but I STOMP this kid. 2 Simic Sky Swallowers absolutely devour him.

Game 2: Perish. I lose.

Game 3: I'm stomping him. Brainstorm to hide good cards is key this game. It comes down to I swing with Simic for 2 more turns and he's done. He's at 7. I have 3 creatures out. A bird, an eternal witness, a Simic Sky Swallower. He has 3 Chimeric Idols. One untapped, 2 tapped. I top deck natural order... AND ATTACK. Like an idiot. With Sky Swallower. I then order, about to get another Simic, and realize I can get the 4/4 and blow up and Idol. So I do. Then I realize I could of swung in for the win had I done that first. He has no cards in hand. Flips over his top card, showing it to everone as he would of conceded the game had it not been Perish. But there it is, a white bordered Perish. He Perishes, and wins 2 turns after.

My record this match went 2-1, since I was not only a good Tie breaker for his friend, but for him. We figured out that we both easily would of gotten in had we just ID'd, but it worked out well this way because the Pox guy, his friend (who was playing Relic Orb), and I all got into top 8.


TOP 8: 3 color Reanimator.

Game 1: I'm actually doing well. He gets Verdent Force, of all things, and then stalls out but is swinging in. I have a Simic in hand, which he saw, since he used Therapy and Duress to get rid of both of my STP's. I set up with Cradle and Creatures to cast Simic the following turn and just flat out win since he was running on an empty hand (or close to it) and a Verdent Force. He flashes back therapy and says "Sky Swallower". Without even thinking I throw the Simic in my graveyard and proceed to lose. Had I declared he missed by calling out the name of a card from Guildpact, I could of beaten him. That's what I get for playing too much casual magic in my free time.

Game 2: I peris down to 5. Which was awful, because my first hand was 2 birds, 5 hate cards, and no land. I should of kept it anyway. I go and play a little creature out of my 5 card hand, but turn 2 Akroma + Animate Dead tricks is just bad. I can't draw StP to save my life. Literally. I proceed to lose.







So there you have it. The deck did fairly well. Had I not made the 2 mistakes I did during the tournament I would of had 2 more games than I did. Maybe the second game against Reanimator would of been better for me had I not messed up the first one. But that's all in theory. Any other deck in top 8 I had a better chance of beating, even Pox. Reanimator was just too quick the second game for me to come back.


Some other stuff I've played this against recently was Burn and Thresh. Burn, thanks to the Plows (on my stuff) and Elephants was a 6-0 match. Thresh was a 3-0 match. However, I do think Thresh should of done better. Could of been the build, could of been the player, but I just had bigger better creatures and I had StP. Also, this was the U/g/r version. Had it had White in it for StP and Enforcer, I do believe I would of had a much worse win ratio.

Reverend Damaged
08-30-2006, 12:08 AM
Wow, that build looks awesome. I love Trygon Predator.

Have you considered Ancient Tomb per chance, it'll make the second turn Natural Order that much more likely.

If you add in the 4 Tombs, this deck's core structure...

4x Birds of Paradise
4x Fyndhorn Elves
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Quirion Ranger
4x Natural Order
3x Gaea's Cradle
4x Ancient Tomb

will be identical to a deck posted on the create a deck contest. It ran Trinisphere and Chalice to hate out combo, thres and goblins instead of splashing blue for Brainstorm though. I think that's a great way to go too.


Trinisphere huh? I didn't consider that. Would greatly improve my game against combo. Even against decks like Pox, who abuse dark ritual and cheap spells under few land. I'll have to look into this.

matxer
08-31-2006, 05:15 AM
I have tested this deck on MWS: it's both fun and competitive ! Sb is good too.

I'd wish more versatility when I play natural order, especially if the game stalls. Mimic is awesome but can't solve everything. Sometime you need another different beast on the board.

My suggestion is to replace one of the 4 Loxodon by a wurm. I hesitate btw the 3 following:
*autochthon wum: 9/14 trample is huge !!
* penumbra wurm: vs wrath and perish
* Crush of wurm: 3 6/6 tokens can bypass opponent's defense.

Reverend Damaged
08-31-2006, 01:54 PM
I have tested this deck on MWS: it's both fun and competitive ! Sb is good too.

I'd wish more versatility when I play natural order, especially if the game stalls. Mimic is awesome but can't solve everything. Sometime you need another different beast on the board.

My suggestion is to replace one of the 4 Loxodon by a wurm. I hesitate btw the 3 following:
*autochthon wum: 9/14 trample is huge !!
* penumbra wurm: vs wrath and perish
* Crush of wurm: 3 6/6 tokens can bypass opponent's defense.



I'm glad you like the deck. I have been testing several other creatures for the "Wrath, you lose" situation. The 2 I've come up with that best suit this are Penumbra Wurm and Gigapede. Gigapede is more castable in the early game, and can keep coming back which is awfully annoying. Penumbra Wurm helps you deal with Wrath and Perish very well, while being able to swing for 6 the following turn, but he loses to STP. My suggestion, since you're testing this on MWS, is to replace a Hierarch with Gigapede (since he doesn't lose to plow) and see how he handles.

In testing against, well, anyone I can find (which until Type 1 night this coming wednesday is mostly Rogue items) I found P. Wurm to be best, but I am thinking that when it comes down to the modern meta, Gigapede will prove strong.

Also, could you let me know either here (since it would help this thread) or in a PM what your matches were like and against what decks? Like I said, I get once a week to test and I hate testing online solely because it's alien to me and I don't have a lot of free time to begin with. Some match reports would be awesome!


After Wednesday I'm hoping to have tested the Ancient Tomb/Trinisphere version (with 1 maindeck gigapede) just to see how it fairs against some bigger decks and should have some matchups there.

matxer
08-31-2006, 04:57 PM
So the results so far:

Solo testing (the good point is that both oponents have exactly the same skill because because it's me vs me)
No sb, no mull.
vs Rg Sigh: 2-0
vs Blue Skies: 2-0

On MWS:
vs Rogue prison combo deck: 1-0

vs B reanimator (combo aggro): 1-1
I won easily after sideboarding in the graveyard killers (artefacts). No time for a 3d game but I'm confident its an easy match for Natural Order (or whatever the name of your deck) after sb.
vs RW control using cycles, eternal dragon, lightning rift and the dreaded humility + pyroclasm: 0-2
Bad matchup on game 1 due to humility + pyroclasm. Humility prevents Indrik from destroying it.
Game 2: I messed up the sb in and outs. Lost after a long battle. Several board sweepings with Akroma's vengeance and wrath.
After some thought, with the current sb, the best seems -3 quirions -4 swords +4 needles + 3 naturalize. Wall of blosom must stay due to pyroclasm.
And naturalize should be used only vs Humility whereas needle takes care of Rift. Anyways a bad matchup IMO.

Needs much more playtesting and perhaps some fine tuning but this deck is competitive IMO.

Reverend Damaged
08-31-2006, 05:34 PM
Thanks for doing a little further testing for me. Like I said, I plan on testing out the Trinisphere/Ancient Tomb build soon and seeing how that fairs. The best part about that is it would change the sideboard to include the ever - devastating nail in the coffin: Armageddon. Then against control/combo you'd have Trinisphere + Geddon, as well as a decent clock. At least I'm hoping that would work in theory.


Edit: And the deck is called Dragonforce. :-D Because there's no dragons, and no Verdent Force. :-)

matxer
08-31-2006, 05:55 PM
If you want, I can playtest with you on MWS using the following decks:

* Rg Sligh
* Blue Skies
* Truffle Shuffle (made T8 at World 2006)
* Landstill (4 colors version, made T8 at World 2006 and is really really strong).

Reverend Damaged
09-09-2006, 03:38 PM
If anyone would like to help me test this, I have multiple versions built on MWS (I JUST got it, so if I don't get MWS right away just give me a few to get the hand of it.)


I need to test against some of the bigger decks, and should be online sometime tomorrow. People can find me on AIM at iamacircusmonkey to arrange for games (this is my name for work, but we can at least set up a time to play). Thanks.

SillyMetalGAT
09-09-2006, 03:47 PM
Maybe you should get off your knees and stop juggling balls in your mouth.

Dude was that you on that account? That dude was so fuckin annoying! Please tell me that wasn't you.