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Bardo
08-09-2006, 07:50 PM
Note: This thread is for the discussion and further development of Blue/Green/White Threshold only. Discussions on the other color splashes can be found elsewhere. As this thread is in the LMF, it will be heavily moderated to keep the discussion relevant and on-topic.



"Legacy Blue/Green/White Threshold"

I. Overview: What Threshold is About and How it Works

Threshold is the premier Aggro-Control deck in the current Legacy format. It's based around the eponymous Odyssey-block Threshold beaters, the best Blue and White control cards in the format and its characteristic low land count (only 17-18). The ultra-low curve of the deck, its free counters and plentiful cantrips allow it to play an aggressive tempo strategy to stomp randomness, go head-to-head with aggro, annoy dedicated control decks, and roll over combo--like Reset High Tide ("Solidarity") and Ill-Gotten Gains Combo ("IGGy Pop")--with its quick and efficient clock, Meddling Magi and copious arsenal of countermagic.

What sets Threshold apart from its more control-oriented peers that are also based around Blue spells, is the resiliency and cost-efficiency of its namesake threshold creatures. For a mere 1GG, you can drop 7-power of creature on the board ('Goose and 'Bear)--comfortably tapping out to do so because of FoW and Daze--and maintain your momentum with your counters to inflict fatal damage.

II. History and Proven Lists
Originally modeled after the 2001-02 era Extended Gro archetype, Legacy Threshold enjoyed a respectable amount of forum chatter, but with a lack of any meaningful events and willing/competent pilots, the deck remained a fairly anonymous Internet curio*.

This abruptly changed when Ian MacInnes (aka Cavern Ninja) took his "Dryadless Gro" deck (aka "Not Quite Gro" aka "NQG") to a First Place victory at Big Arse II (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1801) (July 2005) in Syracuse, New York. His was the first public list to eschew maindeck Quirion Dryad, a perennial favorite of Johnnies and faux-Spikes the world over, and replace her with combo-busting goodness of Meddling Mage. And lo', the world rejoiced.

Legacy U/G/W Threshold
First Place. Big Arse II (July 2005)
by Ian MacInnes aka 'Cavern Ninja'

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Predict
4 Accumulated Knowledge

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
2 Stifle

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Disenchant

4 Werebear
4 Meddling Mage
2 Mystic Enforcers

4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Forest

Sideboard
3 Nimble Mongoose
3 Armageddon
3 Pithing Needle
2 Tivadar’s Crusade
2 Honorable Passage
2 Phyrexian Furnace

If BA2 placed Threshold on the map, it was the deck's phenomenal success at Legacy's first Grand Prix (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/gpphi05/welcome) (Philadelphia, November 2005), that had the Legacy community**, taking the deck seriously as a legitimate "Deck to Beat."

When the dust had settled, our own Ben Goodman (aka Ridiculous Hat) and Vintage Threshold pioneer Lam Phan (developer of "Bird Shit") had made the Top 8 with U/G/W Threshold, while Pat MacGregor took 6th place with U/G/R Threshold. Oh, how the champagne flowed.

Legacy U/G/W Threshold
Seventh Place. Grand Prix: Philadelphia (November 2005)
by Ben Goodman aka 'Ridiculous Hat'

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Predict
3 Sleight Of Hand

4 Force Of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
1 Disrupting Shoal

4 Swords To Plowshares
3 Pithing Needle

4 Meddling Mage
4 Werebear
3 Mystic Enforcer

4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

Sideboard
4 Hydroblast
3 Nimble Mongoose
3 Armageddon
3 Tivadar's Crusade
2 Engineered Explosives

(A link to Ben's GP: Philly tournament report can be found at the end of this post.)

A mere five weeks later, at Grand Prix: Lille, Threshold placed yet another three people into the Top 8 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/gplill05/welcome), but this time, they were all in the Top 3! Helmut Summersberger won the whole chimichanga with the new kid on the block: 4-color Threshold (U/G/r/w), besting Daniel Krutil with his teched out U/G/W Thresh in the finals. Nicolas Labarre made third place with U/G/R--which saw the return of Quirion Dryad and Isochron Scepter.

Legacy U/G/W Threshold
Second Place. Grand Prix: Lille (December 2005)
by Daniel Krutil

4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
3 Predict

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Worship

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Galina's Knight
2 Meddling Mage
2 Mystic Enforcer

4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Forest

Sideboard
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Pithing Needle
3 Stifle
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Meddling Mage
2 Armageddon

Stand-out tech in the Krutil list includes maindeck Worship and Galina's Knight as well as Umezawa's Jitte in the sideboard.

But the story does not end there. With frequent success at the local level, as documented at morphling.de and in scattered tournament reports, Alix Hatfield (aka "Obfuscate Freely") with U/G/W Threshold would go on to split with Mike Herbig's High Tide (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3170) in the finals of Kadilak's Dual Land Draft II this past April in Syracuse.

Legacy U/G/W Threshold
First Place (split). Kadilak's Dual Land Draft II (April 2006)
by Alix Hatfield

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Portent
4 Predict

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pithing Needle

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Daze

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
2 Mystic Enforcer

4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Windswept Heath
3 Island
1 Forest

Sideboard
4 Tividar's Crusade
3 Nantuko Monastery
3 Naturalize
3 Meddling Mage
2 Blue Elemental Blast

(Update: I don't want this post to collapse under the weight of so many decklists, but I'll just mention that U/G/W Threshold also won Star City Games Duel for Duals III (July 8, 2006). You can see the list here (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=17908).)

III. Thresh vs. The World (http://70.86.201.113/imageserv2/stilltemporary/PBF088ADWorldChampion.gif)

If you want some general pointers on how to play Threshold, see parts two (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=8752) and four (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10811.html) of my Threshold series--including suggestions on which spells to have your Meddling Magi chanting against. But the real challenge of playing Thresh, from a novice's point of view, is knowing what matters at each phase of the game and in each match. The deck runs a enough counters to stop almost anything, but not enough that you can counter everything. Consequently, the difference between an average player and a strong player is knowing when it's safe to let Umezawa's Jitte (etc.) resolve, and when it needs to be stopped.

When I play the deck, I'm looking to get into a position where I don't care if [x] resolves (be it a Psychatog or Goblin Lackey), since I either have an alternate plan to deal with it, that doesn't involve my counters, or that the threat is irrelevant and my opponent may as well have played Didgeridoo since I plan on winning shortly.

vs. Goblins

This match can go either way and I'd say the match is somewhat in Goblins favor. Preboard, you have 12 ways to stop a first turn Lackey on the draw, and a full 26 ways to stop Lackey on the play. Mongoose is your Incinerator-proof Piledriver and Lackey chumper. If you draw enough removal, you can beat your opponent down with your ground pounders, but if the ground is locked up in a stalemate, you can win with the ultimate stalemate buster: Mystic Enforcer.

Tips:
- Don't be afraid to trade your Mongoose for a Lackey or a Werebear for a Piledriver
- Unless you're a gambler (and a bad one), fetch your basics first
- BEB Piledriver when he's on the stack (he's Pro: Blue when on the board)

vs. Sligh, Burn, R/G

Favorable. The burn player gets approximately three points of damage out of each of its spells, and Thresh gets approximately 7 damage of its. Compare Lightning Bolt for R with Mongoose for G and Incinerate for 1R with Werebear for 1G and you'll see what I mean. Thresh puts the Red deck on a menacing clock and needs only to stabilize at < 5 life. Then things get ugly with Hydroblast and the vicious Worship--for those who go that route.

Tips:
- Don't be afraid to soak up damage
- Cursed Scroll can be easily raced
- If Wasteland/Price of Progress...blah-blah-blah...fetch basic lands
- StP'ing your dudes is often the right play

vs. Affinity

Peculiarly favorable. It's strange, but I don't think I've ever lost a match to Affinity. I cover the match at some length in Part 4 (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10811.html) of the Thresh Primer--so you might check that out if you haven't read it before. The games seems to progress to a land-based standstill and then, like Superman, Mystic Enforcer arrives to clobber my opponent silly.

Tips:
- Daze whatever the hell you can (well not, um, Chromatic Sphere), because Daze becomes useless quicker than usual
- Mage on Cranial Plating is often best
- If Vial is on the board, obviously don't set your Magi on opposing d00ds
- Don't be afraid to trade Werebears with Myr Enforcers
- Engineered Explosives beats the piss out of Ravagers, Atogs, Plating (two counters)

vs. Angel Stompy

Roughly even. I've played against Zilla a few times and it seems roughly equal. Angel Stompy has more dudes, but pound-for-pound, they're weaker than Thresh's. If Thresh devotes its control cards to containing the white deck's critters, it can safely let the equipment accumulate on the board with no one to wield them. Engineered Explosives, for those who play them, easily nets a two/three-for-one. Post-board, Tormod's Crypt goes a long way to making the match far more difficult for the Thresh player.

Tips:
- Explosives for 0 nukes face-down Angels and moxen
- Mongoose is immune to Parallax Wave--don't forget that
- Mystic Enforcer is a monster
- If you go to Thailand, remember to bring condoms

vs. W/R Rifter

Unfavorable. Meddling Mage should be set to "Swords to Plowshares" and all of your countermagic should be held for Humility. That card sucks. The best way I've found to win is to deny Rifter the late game it wants and put your opponent under quick and aggressive pressure. Rifter's life gain can also be a pain in the ass when you're within striking distance. Finally, Thresh gets a hell of lot of mileage out of single Armageddon

Tips:
- Save your counters for Humility
- Win quickly or you probably won't win at all
- Pithing Needle has a lot of juicy targets (Eternal Dragon, DoJ, Steppe/Cave, etc.)--consider them carefully

vs. High Tide and IGGy Pop/any storm-based combo deck

Highly favorable. Pleasantly, Thresh beats the ever-living piss out of any storm-based combo deck. The match percentages against combo are one of the things that make Thresh an attractive deck to play. Against High Tide I set my first Mage to "High Tide," against Tendrils decks, name the kill card and make them work for their bounce. Against Reset versions of High Tide, be careful about tapping out when you have Counterspell (even if you don't if you can afford to bluff) and casting too many spells per turn.

Tips:
- Don't get overconfidant
- Tendrils of Agony is a sorcery so play all of your spells on your turn

vs. Survival

Slightly favorable. I've heard that a lot of people would bet on Survival in this match, but my experiences would have me betting on Thresh, if the pilot knew what he was doing. Needle is gold, Meddling Mage is awesome, Birds are weak, and if you can keep Survival off the board (or contained with Pithing Needle) there's nothing you really can't deal with. Obviously, an active SotF makes the game much more annoying.

Tips:
- Be prepared to fight a slow battle of attrition when you reach the late game
- Survival is by far the most powerful card in their deck (the deck is freaking named after it, after all); be sure to aim all of your control cards at it and you should pull it through

vs. B/W Confidant aka Deadguy Ale

Slightly unfavorable. Head-to-head, my money's on Confidant--especially if it's maindecking Withered Wretch. Thresh is already land-light to begin with and as much as it wants to dump stuff into its graveyard, it can't easily recover from hand destruction. Thresh's draw engine (Predict aside), while efficient, never increases your hand size--it just finds goodies. And by packing more spells where land would normally go, it almost seems like you're drawing more cards than your opponent, but rather you're just seeing and choosing more cards than your opponent and drawing more spells than lands when you're both topdecking. And that is the dilemma when it comes to Deadguy. I will generally set my first Mage on Vindicate so that I don't shut off my own removal by naming StP--as you really need an answer to Confidant, Shade, and Hyppie when they arrive.

Tips:
- Even without seven cards in your graveyard, Enforcer is still money
- Leave your fetchlands on the board for as long as you can
- Fetch basics as aggressively as you can afford
- Don't be afraid to trade an unthreshed Mongoose/Werebear for Confidant

vs. Stax

Highly unfavorable. If you lose the die roll, seriously, go get lunch or a beer or something. As in Vintage, going second against Stax places you in a terrible position and fighting against a turn-1 Chalice for "1" or Trinisphere is often game. But if you do get to go first, being able to play a single cantrip and have Daze ready gives you a fighting chance. I'll usually set my first Meddling Mage to "Tangle Wire" so I can beat with impunity. Smokestack is too slow to matter and only has an effect on the games you've already lost. Post board you'll bring in artifact removal in place of your useless Swords to Plowshares.

Tips:
- Leave your fetchlands on the board for as long as possible.
- Fetch your basics or you'll lose
- Careful naming with Meddling Mage is more crucial than normal
- Win as quick as possible or you won't win at all

And that's about it.

IV. Appendix:

A. Ben Goodman's GP: Philly Threshold Report (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10865.html)

B. Bardo's "Threshold/Super Gro Primer" at StarCityGames:

Part 1: Design and Construction (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=8731)
Part 2: Strategy and Tactics (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=8752)
Part 3: Tuning the Maindeck and Sideboard (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10669.html)
Part 4: Sideboard Guide (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10811.html)
Part 5: Reflections on Grand Prix: Lille (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/11103.html)

C. 'My own take on the archetype:

Legacy U/G/W Threshold
Lives in fucking Oregon. You do the math...
by Dan Spero aka 'Bardo'

4 Serum Visions
4 Mental Note
4 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Counterspell

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Meddling Mage
1 Mystic Enforcer

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

Sideboard
4 Hydroblast
3 Armageddon
2 Tivadar's Crusade
2 Naturalize
2 Worship
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Mystic Enforcer


Questions to get the discussion rolling:

- What's the correct number of land? 17? 18?

- Should Thresh run off-color basics (Forest and/or Plains) or are basic Islands enough?

- What's the optimal cantrip base? How many should you run? 12? 14? 16? 18?

- Is Mental Note the nutz or chaff? What about Predict?

- Maindeck Meddling Mage: Hot or Not? In the sideboard?

- Maindeck Nimble Mongoose: Hot or Not? In the sideboard?

- 3 Daze or 4?

- Engineered Explosives: Hot or Not? In the sideboard, main deck or is it crap?

- Maindeck (or Sideboard) Worship: Hot or Not?

- How many Enforcers do you need? Maindeck 1-3? 0? Keep them in the sideboard?

-------------------------------

* Much like Legacy itself

** All thirty of us

Getsickanddie
08-09-2006, 11:23 PM
[COLOR="Blue"]
vs. Affinity

Peculiarly favorable. It's strange, but I don't think I've ever lost a match to Affinity. I cover the match at some length in Part 4 (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10811.html) of the Thresh Primer--so you might check that out if you haven't read it before. The games seems to progress to a land-based standstill and then, like Superman, Mystic Enforcer arrives to clobber my opponent silly.
[I]
Tips:
- Daze whatever the hell you can (well not, um, Chromatic Sphere), because Daze becomes useless quicker than usual
- Mage on Cranial Plating is often best
- If Vial is on the board, obviously don't set your Magi on opposing d00ds
- Don't be afraid to trade Werebears with Myr Enforcers
- Engineered Explosives beats the piss out of Ravagers, Atogs, Plating (two counters)

I'm surprised that you find this matchup so favorable. In my personally experience I have yet to lose to UGW Thresh. (Even once being stuck under worship lock with no outs except DECKING my opponent). I've found my opponents unable to keep up with my stream of threats. Most players in Syracuse do not play maindeck engineered explosives, however only running one doesn't seem all to helpful in the face of maindeck needles.

Phantom
08-10-2006, 12:15 AM
Fucking fantastic work here Bardo! I really wish more threads had more finely sculpted first posts.

I'll take a stab at some of your questions:

Q: Should Thresh run off-color basics (Forest and/or Plains) or are basic Islands enough?
A: I personally like the off color basics, but for those who prefer not to fetch them vs. Goblins, I guess not.

Q: What's the optimal cantrip base? How many should you run? 12? 14? 16? 18?
Q: Is Mental Note the nutz or chaff? What about Predict?
A: Combined these. I say more than 12, less than 16. Either 14 or 15. I run both Mental Note and Predict. Predict can often be dead with only 8 stacking effects, but I still think it's worth running at least 2. Some Thresh players are still in love with Portent, but I really don't like it at all. Still, I wonder if we will ever come to a clear consensus on the cantrip base since it seems so personal.

Q: Maindeck Meddling Mage: Hot or Not? In the sideboard?
Q: Maindeck Nimble Mongoose: Hot or Not? In the sideboard?
A: Yes to both. 4 Goose clearly, but I prefer 2 or 3 Mages as geese are great in every matchup while mages are pretty awful in some.

Q: 3 Daze or 4?
A: 3. I don't think I ever want to see 2 in my opening hand and they're not the worlds best topdeck.

Q: Engineered Explosives: Hot or Not? In the sideboard, main deck or is it crap?
Q: How many Enforcers do you need? Maindeck 1-3? 0? Keep them in the sideboard?
A: I'm combining these two because it shows the beauty of this deck. I say, run one of each. There are no matchups where you need either of these cards, only matchups where you want them so the decks cantrip base allows you to either bury or dump them in the bad matchups, or dig for them in the good ones. I say one explosives main, and one in the board, and 1 Enforcer main, and 2 in the board.

Whit3 Ghost
08-10-2006, 11:10 AM
Ill take a stab at the questions too.
- What's the correct number of land? 17? 18?
17

- Should Thresh run off-color basics (Forest and/or Plains) or are basic Islands enough?
I'd run a maindeck forest.
- What's the optimal cantrip base? How many should you run? 12? 14? 16? 18? 14-16

- Is Mental Note the nutz or chaff? What about Predict?
Note is the nutz. It allows you to recover from things like crypt a lot faster.

- Maindeck Meddling Mage: Hot or Not? In the sideboard?
It should at least be sideboarded its maindeck slot is deck dependent.
- Maindeck Nimble Mongoose: Hot or Not? In the sideboard?
Hot. It is huge against Goblins and random Agro.
- 3 Daze or 4?
3. You don't want 2 in your opening hand.
- Engineered Explosives: Hot or Not? In the sideboard, main deck or is it crap?
I am personally not a fan of it at all, but it's list dependent.
- Maindeck (or Sideboard) Worship: Hot or Not?
I like sideboard Worship. Locking random agro is always tech.
- How many Enforcers do you need? Maindeck 1-3? 0? Keep them in the sideboard?
I prefer 2 and 1 in the board. Enforcer is just too big not to run.

Citrus-God
08-10-2006, 04:57 PM
Yeah... I'll take a stab at them too.

Q: What's the correct number of land? 17 or 18?

A: 18 if you run the Mental Note version, since Mental Note cant really find you lands. 17 if you run 1cc 12 Cantrips that include Library Mainpulation.

Q: Should Thresh run off-color basics (Forest and/or Plains) or are basic Islands enough?

A: I seem to like them, they help against Goblins or anything Wasteland. Only two things I'm afraid of for running off-colored basics are; Rishadan Ports and my opening hands if it's a 1 Land Hand and a Cantrip.


Q: What's the optimal cantrip base? How many should you run? 12? 14? 16? 18?

A: 12-14 if I'm running Mental Notes, 14-16 if I run Predicts, 16-18 if I run Dryads.


Q: Is Mental Note the nutz or chaff? What about Predict?

A: I like Mental Notes if I run at least 12 Guys Maindecked, and that includes the Red Version too. The reason why I say this because Mental Notes cant draw you into any guys really, so you rely on your opening hand to get those guys; Mental Notes just exploit them, so they can take your opponeny down early game.
As for Predict, I think it's a solid piece of card draw. It cuts a dead card from your deck entirely (assuming you'll play another shuffle effect) with the aid of a Library Manipulation Cantrip. I also like it because it halps in in the midgame, and easily help with your card quality and quantity, assuming that you have enough time to use set-up Predict.


Q: Maindeck Meddling Mage: Hot or Not? In the sideboard?

A: In an unexpected field, they're hot if you have the skill to use them, otherwise in Goblin heavy metagames, they suck. But I admit, they do win quite a lot of games against just about anything. But if I dont run them main, the sideboard is a good place to put them.


Q: Maindeck Nimble Mongoose: Hot or Not? In the sideboard?

A: Run them Maindecked always; they're crazy with Mental Notes, they're crazy with Predicts, and they're part of what makes your clock tick! Always run these!


Q: 3 Daze or 4?

A: 3 Daze if you feel like running a Disrupting Shoal or Counterspell over the 4th one, or your running the Predict version, which has an actual late-game. 4 Dazes if you run Mental Notes. Now the reason why I said that because with such a clock, they're more likely to tap out to find answers for them, so Daze becomes very useful.


Q: Engineered Explosives: Hot or Not? In the sideboard, main deck or is it crap?

A; I like it because it's so random, and is a decent answer to the mirror. Also pretty hawt against Stax.


Q: Maindeck (Or Sideboard) Worship: Hot or Not?

A: Maindeck if every swiss round is an 1-1.5 hours long and it's aggro. Otherwise SB a couple of them; they're amazing. If not, I would dare say Nantuko Monastery.

Q: How many Enforcers do you need? Maindeck 1-3? 0? Keep them in the sideboard?

A: 1 Maindecked; Mental Note alreasy makes my guys tick. I'll side him in the mirror or something. 2 is the most I would go, and 3 if some people just see Nimble Mongoose distasteful. I would have at least 0-1 in the Sideboard.

AngryTroll
08-10-2006, 05:43 PM
A lot of the basics are seem to be agreed upon so far, so I will skip the ones most people agree upon so far.

Meddling Mages: I've been running them main, because they are always playable, if not fantastic. Worst case scenerio, side them out for something more useful.

Engineered Explosives: One of my favorites in the deck. I run two, and am tempted to run a third. Against random aggro decks or Goblins, a topdecked EE can swing a game to your favor from the blue. Against Faerie Stompy a few weeks ago, game one I forced a turn one and a turn two Chalice, then lost to the insane card disadvantage. I managed to win the match, but the key factor of the match was an EE. My opponent went turn one Chalice for one, which stuck, then a Chalice for two, cutting of my Naturalizes. At this point, the castable cards in the deck are Force, Enforcer...and EE. I rip an EE, cast it for zero, and net myself a 4-for-1, blowing up a Chrome Mox in the process.

Other super-useful uses of EE include Isochron Sceptor, multiple Grim Lavamancers, Kird Apes, and an Isamaru, and moxen and tokens. I have done all of those in the past month, and while not always the single game winning factor, I am never dissapointed to draw an EE.

SuckerPunch
08-10-2006, 06:07 PM
Should Threshold run Remand and Repeal over Portent and Predict?

I've recently started running this configuration just to try it out, both feed threshold. But the former two provide solid tempo boosts while giving up card quality.

The best part about the former two cards is that they greatly slow down fast decks like Goblins long enough for you to attain Threshold and shut them out completely. In addition, creatures have to wait a turn to attack, so when you repeal them, you actually set them back by two turns.

The other card I've again started testing here is Mishra's Bauble, mainly because it acts like an opt when combined with fetchlands and works well with Serum Visions, Mental Note, and Predict.

I'm not saying that any of these cards are optimal or must be run.

I was just wondering if you guys though these cards were viable alternatives to the standard cantrip engine.

I am also wondering about Counterbalance, which I ironically enough am also testing.



vs. Sligh, Burn, R/G

Favorable. The burn player gets approximately three points of damage out of each of its spells, and Thresh gets approximately 7 damage of its. Compare Lightning Bolt for R with Mongoose for G and Incinerate for 1R with Werebear for 1G and you'll see what I mean. Thresh puts the Red deck on a menacing clock and needs only to stabilize at < 5 life. Then things get ugly with Hydroblast and the vicious Worship--for those who go that route.

Tips:
- Don't be afraid to soak up damage
- Cursed Scroll can be easily raced
- If Wasteland/Price of Progress...blah-blah-blah...fetch basic lands
- StP'ing your dudes is often the right play


I don't mean to be nitpicky. The rest of the analysis is wonderful, but I disagree about your assessment that burn is an easy matchup for you.

I explained the matchup in far greater detail in the burn thread, but in summary, with all the self damage you take from fetchlands and force of wills, they only need to resolve ~5 burn spells to win the game as long as two of those burn spells include flame rift or fireblast.

The thres player only starts to get lots of damage from his creatures once he gets threshold, which usually takes till around turn 4 unless you draw 2 mental notes early on. By then the thres player is already well in single digits. After getting threshold, the thres player will still need to survive several more turns to get the kill.

I've played the matchup from both sides and while sligh is a walk in the park, a well built burn deck (18-19 land, 20 1cc 3 damage spells including mogg fanatic, fireblast, flame rift, flamebreak and no other 3cc cards) will prove quite challenging.

The only way it's an easy matchup is if you cast Worship, which none of your lists MD or sideboard.



You only run about 9-10 counterspells, 4 of which are very easily played around. And you will be at very low on life by the time you reach threshold no matter how you play. By then, the life differential is so much that the burn player won't care about your threats. And even swording your own guy buys you a turn at best but slows down how much damage you can deal giving them more time to draw more burn spells. Only bad burn players, that either run too many high cc burn spells or focus their burn on your creatures rather than the player will be easy for thres.

Now I'm not saying that burn is a very difficult matchup for you, just that's it's not in your favor unless you run Worship or Counterbalance.

Sligh however is a very easy matchup for you since they need to attack to deal damage and thus hate untargetable 3/3 and 4/4 blockers that require 2 for 1ing. But lumping it with burn and thinking both will be easy matchups is a mistake.

Dont get me wrong though. I'm not saying that burn is a good deck and warrants much consideration. It can be hated out very easily with just a couple of sideboard worship if need be.

Angel of Despair
08-13-2006, 11:44 PM
Today, I played in my 4th tournament, with white Thresh. I am going to try to give a tournament report. I got into the Top 4! It was a small tournament. There were 3 rounds, and Top 4.
My first round, I played against an Affinity type deck, but with a few changes. I went 2-0 against him. It was a pretty easy win. I countered all of his kill conditions, and beat him down with Threshed geese and Werebears. I also had Enforcer a couple times to speed up the process.
Round 2: I played against a Squirrel Opposition deck. It was a very interesting deck. I lost the first die roll, and lost game one. I went into topdeck mode. He played back to basics. (I took out my basic Plains the change the deck, and forgot to put it back) He wrecked me with 2 Troll Aesthetic's. I won game 2. I had 2 Mongeese, a Werebear, and 2 Enforcers. He tapped my enforcers for 2 turns with Opposition, and then I topdecked Naturalize. Swung twice and won.
Round 3: U/W control. It was like Landstill without the actual card. The first game was long, he had meddling mages too, and swords. It was actually the closest thing to a mirror match I've seen. I went 1-2 with him.
I got matched up against the same person in the top 4. He won that game too. He had Forbidden Watchtower for my bears. I left after that game

Top 4
Affinity
Goblins
U/W Control
Me!

Othersider
08-14-2006, 03:43 AM
I'm still not an expert at Thresh, but my experience so far has led me to side with those that place Meddling Mage in the sideboard, but definitely as a 4-of. Once you know what your opponent is playing, the Mage is dynamite; if nothing else, it can serve as a "must counter" or "must destroy" your opponent has to deal with. However, I've found that, when you don't know what to expect (i.e., in the first game), you can often waste a Mage by naming something less than optimal.

I'm sure many will disagree with this idea, but I'm currently main-decking Armageddon, and I don't side it out very often. How often is resolving Armageddon not game over? Not very, from my experience.

NANTUKO_SHADY
08-14-2006, 10:15 AM
I'm sure many will disagree with this idea, but I'm currently main-decking Armageddon, and I don't side it out very often. How often is resolving Armageddon not game over? Not very, from my experience.


Maindeck Armageddon??? 0_o... that is quite interesting. What's even more interesting is that you rarely side it out.. does that mean Goblins is non-existent in your meta??? I think Armageddon is a 3 of in the sideboard only. I'm also curious as to what you cut for the geddons.

Bane of the Living
08-14-2006, 04:40 PM
I'm still not an expert at Thresh, but my experience so far has led me to side with those that place Meddling Mage in the sideboard, but definitely as a 4-of. Once you know what your opponent is playing, the Mage is dynamite; if nothing else, it can serve as a "must counter" or "must destroy" your opponent has to deal with. However, I've found that, when you don't know what to expect (i.e., in the first game), you can often waste a Mage by naming something less than optimal.

I'm sure many will disagree with this idea, but I'm currently main-decking Armageddon, and I don't side it out very often. How often is resolving Armageddon not game over? Not very, from my experience.

I think by now its apparent that maindecked Meddling Mage is the reason that W Thresh has its biggest strengths.. The ability to control what the opponent plays even more. We went to this tournament in West Springfield MA. Look how ridiculously odd her pairings were. Mage still came in handy in a very unknown and diverse meta. Name one key card in a deck not built around mage and in just crumbles.

Othersider
08-14-2006, 07:51 PM
Maindeck Armageddon??? 0_o... that is quite interesting. What's even more interesting is that you rarely side it out.. does that mean Goblins is non-existent in your meta??? I think Armageddon is a 3 of in the sideboard only. I'm also curious as to what you cut for the geddons.
Meddling Mage, of which I have 4 in the board. And actually, I haven't played against many Goblin decks, which I admit means I shouldn't be playing this at a serious Legacy tournament any time soon. Unfortunately, there isn't nearly enough Legacy playing around here for me to do the requisite testing and tweaking. Hence my apparent ignorance.

I suppose if nothing else, I can whip up a Goblin deck to play this against. In anyone's educated opinion, how favorable/unfavorable is the Goblins matchup?

NANTUKO_SHADY
08-14-2006, 08:18 PM
I suppose if nothing else, I can whip up a Goblin deck to play this against. In anyone's educated opinion, how favorable/unfavorable is the Goblins matchup?




I am no master of Threshold either, I don't even play teh deck lol.. So I would suggest scrolling up at Bardo's original post, it has the matchups there, including the Goblins one. From what I read, it is a toss-up, but slightly favorable towards team Goblins.

Parcher
08-14-2006, 08:25 PM
Ignore it.

What the issue may be for you is that you need to lose to Goblins. Meddling Mage is usless against them, and Armageddon is worse than useless. While you will find both these cards in most White Thresh builds, few has Mage maindeck, and none have 'Geddon.

It's purely a metagame call, as decks running Mage maindecked or sideboard have both won tournaments. The more Combo and Control you expect, the more he is needed. In a random meta,(as you seem to have) I could see 'Geddon in the main hosing a lot of unprepared decks.

Against Aggro, he is stll o.k., just not as good against decks that can cheat creatures into play with Aether Vial. But even the Survival builds that run Vial can be hurt if you name Survival with him.

You would get more useful feedback if you included what you run as a creature base, as most decks that don't run Mage use 2-3 Enforcers in addition to the Goose and Bear. And these also run an altered cantrip base than the Mage bulids. Usually more controlling than speedy to take the late game, and to make up for the lack of control Mage gives.

Othersider
08-14-2006, 09:06 PM
What the issue may be for you is that you need to lose to Goblins. Meddling Mage is usless against them, and Armageddon is worse than useless. While you will find both these cards in most White Thresh builds, few has Mage maindeck, and none have 'Geddon.
Thanks for the reply. That's a very good point. I know Goblins is a DTB, and it's one I don't have nearly enough experience against. So, I guess I need to find out what to replace Mage/Geddon with in a Goblin-heavy meta.



It's purely a metagame call, as decks running Mage maindecked or sideboard have both won tournaments. The more Combo and Control you expect, the more he is needed. In a random meta,(as you seem to have) I could see 'Geddon in the main hosing a lot of unprepared decks.
So far, I would say that's the case - I've surprised a lot of people playing Geddon in the first game, which is one reason it's still in the main deck.



You would get more useful feedback if you included what you run as a creature base, as most decks that don't run Mage use 2-3 Enforcers in addition to the Goose and Bear. And these also run an altered cantrip base than the Mage bulids. Usually more controlling than speedy to take the late game, and to make up for the lack of control Mage gives.
I'm currently running 4 x Goose & Bear, 3 x Enforcer, 10 counters, and 14 draw (4 x Brainstorm, Serum, Note, 2 x Predict). Thoughts?

Bardo
08-15-2006, 04:20 PM
I'm surprised that you find this matchup so favorable. In my personally experience I have yet to lose to UGW Thresh. (Even once being stuck under worship lock with no outs except DECKING my opponent). I've found my opponents unable to keep up with my stream of threats. Most players in Syracuse do not play maindeck engineered explosives, however only running one doesn't seem all to helpful in the face of maindeck needles.

A few things:

* My post was all about my personal experiences playing the deck in tourneys, on MWS, and at my "Dining Room Table Gauntlet." Take one man's experience what the deck for what it is: personal limited but thorough. Of note, I haven't played against the Berserk/Fling Affinity decks, and those seem better than the rest.

* If you get your Thresh opponent to 1 with Worship on the board, a single trigger of Disciple will kill them, since it's "loss of life." This is why you don't sideboard Worship in against IGGy Pop.

* Affinity can dump a ton of threats quickly, but mostly they're weak. Frogmites and Workers are good for affinity counts, but are easily trumped by all of Thresh's threats. The most dangerous things are Cranial Plating on an Ornithopter or Nexus and Ravager + Disciple. The rest of it you just counter, StP or nuke with EE. Though StP and Pithing Needle all provide cost-efficient outs to all of these situations. In most games, the ground war will eventually stall out and you can win with Enforcer, who's a beast.


I don't mean to be nitpicky. The rest of the analysis is wonderful, but I disagree about your assessment that burn is an easy matchup for you.

Again, this has been my experience. And I never said it was "easy," but the only life point that counts is the last one.



Dont get me wrong though. I'm not saying that burn is a good deck and warrants much consideration. It can be hated out very easily with just a couple of sideboard worship if need be.

Note that my list, the last one in the first post, has been running Worship since January.



It's purely a metagame call, as decks running Mage maindecked or sideboard have both won tournaments. The more Combo and Control you expect, the more he is needed. In a random meta,(as you seem to have) I could see 'Geddon in the main hosing a lot of unprepared decks.

This is a critical point and I'm quoting it just for emphasis. None of these lists are set in stone. That's one of the nice things about the deck, it's modular, and there are a lot of negotiable slots depending on what you plan on facing.


I'm currently running 4 x Goose & Bear, 3 x Enforcer, 10 counters, and 14 draw (4 x Brainstorm, Serum, Note, 2 x Predict). Thoughts?

This is pretty standard and has led a lot of people to success. Nothing controversial there.

Othersider
08-15-2006, 07:06 PM
This is pretty standard and has led a lot of people to success. Nothing controversial there.
Thanks. So if I were to put both Mage and Armageddon in the board, what should be in the main?

quicksilver
08-15-2006, 07:24 PM
Thanks. So if I were to put both Mage and Armageddon in the board, what should be in the main?

Probably more cantrips, like portent.

Caboose
08-15-2006, 09:25 PM
I tweaked Bardo's list. What do you guys think?

//Creatures - 14
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
3 Meddling Mage
2 Mystic Enforcer

//Spells – 25
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Predict
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell

//Artifact – 3
3 Pithing Needle

//Land - 18
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
2 Island
1 Forest

SB:
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Tivadar's Crusade
2 Armageddon
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Worship
1 Mystic Enforcer

Haven't tested it yet, but I have a feeling my version is better against Thunder Bluff than other builds.

noobslayer
08-15-2006, 09:27 PM
I'm personally a fan of 4 Brainstorm, 4 Serum Visions, 3 Portent, 3 Predict. It gives you a powerful amount of dig, while reserving a few slots for something like maindeck needles or explosives.

Mirrislegend
08-16-2006, 07:50 AM
So basically we're playing an inferior card (Portent) to support an average card (Predict)?!?! I was a big fan of Mental Note, but I understand more card draw is needed.

How bout Careful Study? Still puts 3 cards into the yard, but you draw 2. For 1 Blue. And all in one card. So you get the yard refilling of Mental Note, the card draw of Predict, and the casting cost and card selection (well nearly) of Portent, without having to waste any slots on support cards.

When I've been balancing Careful Study vs Mental Note (as I play Bardo's older list), the only disadvantage I see to Careful Study is that it's sorcery speed. But that doesnt seem to be an issue in this flood of Portent we've been seeing. So, anyone else for Careful Study?

Benie Bederios
08-16-2006, 08:46 AM
Careful Study brings cardDISadvantage. You loose 3 cards and get 2. When you're in topdeckmode you can't play it. And on top of that it's a sorcery.

I like the Predict, it brings you closer to ********, it can give cardadvantage, and do silly things when your opponent cast a Mystical/Enlightened Tutor, or is using top.

I don't play this deck really, but can't you just play Mental Note AND Predict. Isn't 8 library manipulationcards enough? So that you play 4 Brainstorm, 4 Serum Visions, 3 Predict and 3 Mental Note?

Nightmare
08-16-2006, 08:54 AM
So basically we're playing an inferior card (Portent) to support an average card (Predict)?!?!Now that you've gotten all that punctuation out of your system, no. Portent is not an inferior card. It serves a very similar puropse to Serum Visions, which is smoothing out your draws. You seem to be making a common mistake in thinking that your cantrips are there to build threshold first, and provide card selection second. This couldn't be further from the truth. Gaining turn 3 Threshold isn't really as important as ensuring you hit your first few land drops. This is why Portent is good. It checks out the top 3, and if what you want isn't there, you get a fresh look. This is also why Mental Note forces you into a more aggressive role, and limits your ability to succesfully scrye/Bstorm into the right cards at the right time. If getting Threshold fast were the primary goal, we'd be running Golgari Grave-Troll and Wild Mongrel.

Citrus-God
08-16-2006, 11:20 AM
Now that you've gotten all that punctuation out of your system, no. Portent is not an inferior card. It serves a very similar puropse to Serum Visions, which is smoothing out your draws. You seem to be making a common mistake in thinking that your cantrips are there to build threshold first, and provide card selection second. This couldn't be further from the truth. Gaining turn 3 Threshold isn't really as important as ensuring you hit your first few land drops. This is why Portent is good. It checks out the top 3, and if what you want isn't there, you get a fresh look. This is also why Mental Note forces you into a more aggressive role, and limits your ability to succesfully scrye/Bstorm into the right cards at the right time. If getting Threshold fast were the primary goal, we'd be running Golgari Grave-Troll and Wild Mongrel.
I basically have to agree with him. Building Threshold isnt 1st priority, it's 2nd. 1st Priority happens to be your card quality.

At the same time, I think Mental Note is good, but forces you to make too many aggressive mulligans. I mean, you need at least 2 guys in your opening hand to make Mental Note a cantrip worth using, and since you run 8 Library Manipulation Cantrips, you have the 18th land to help adjust your opening hand.

ookus2
08-16-2006, 01:59 PM
Are we really going to go back through the mental note and predict discussion again. Let's not. There are pages and pages written about it.

Can't we just say that Predict is good but should have another card like portant to make it better. You get cards advantage and better choices of cards. (Seems like CA is better in the red splash(but that's a different thread))

Mental note is good too, but seems to work better in creature heavy builds. Less card quality but faster thresh in a cantrip.

With that being said, can we talk about what thresh will do against B/W if they start to run Jotun Grunt. (Please play some games first if you comment on this) Or talk about the other matchups that Thresh has problems with? More pages of mental note vs. predict isn't helping the deck evolve.

Angel of Despair
08-16-2006, 06:22 PM
Are we really going to go back through the mental note and predict discussion again. Let's not. There are pages and pages written about it.

Can't we just say that Predict is good but should have another card like portant to make it better. You get cards advantage and better choices of cards. (Seems like CA is better in the red splash(but that's a different thread))

Mental note is good too, but seems to work better in creature heavy builds. Less card quality but faster thresh in a cantrip.

With that being said, can we talk about what thresh will do against B/W if they start to run Jotun Grunt. (Please play some games first if you comment on this) Or talk about the other matchups that Thresh has problems with? More pages of mental note vs. predict isn't helping the deck evolve.
I agree with this. What DO we do about that pesky grunt? I have been playing him in my sideboard for the mirror match, but it still hasn't happened. I am scared of that card though. The only thing I can think of is side in Crypts so he can't pay the upkeep and has to sac him. It still sucks though. Anyone else have ideas?
AoD

quicksilver
08-16-2006, 06:49 PM
I agree with this. What DO we do about that pesky grunt? I have been playing him in my sideboard for the mirror match, but it still hasn't happened. I am scared of that card though. The only thing I can think of is side in Crypts so he can't pay the upkeep and has to sac him. It still sucks though. Anyone else have ideas?
AoD

Removing your own graveyard to prevent him from removing your graveyard?!

How about you just side in more creature removal if you are that scared of him. Or maybe ground seal.

Angel of Despair
08-16-2006, 06:59 PM
I actually meant remove his graveyard, if I don't have removal in my hand, or cards in graveyard, I can make him sac him before I get more cards in. It was just a worst case scenario type thing..

seer
08-18-2006, 05:29 PM
I've been playing without predict lately and I haven't missed it at all. It requires a lot of setup, to simply gain +1 CA. The only matchup where I miss it is the GRO mirror, but even then I don't miss it that much.

raudo
08-22-2006, 02:31 PM
I think I'll test this deck with 2-3 sylvan libraries, what do you guys think?

CavernNinja
08-22-2006, 02:33 PM
I think that you would be paying 2 mana for an enchantment you don't need. What are you thinking about cutting? Cantrips? Predict? The problem with Sylvan is that it doesn't do anything NOW and it doesn't help to find land by the second turn, it only helps on the third turn and by then you've already lost a turn to cast a brainstorm.

quicksilver
08-22-2006, 02:37 PM
Against some decks like Solidarity it says, draw two extra cards a turn. However it is rather slow and I doubt it belongs in here.

Othersider
08-24-2006, 11:53 PM
Against some decks like Solidarity it says, draw two extra cards a turn. However it is rather slow and I doubt it belongs in here.
I'm inclined to agree with this, except Bob is essentially the same thing, but one fewer card (but maybe for more turns), and some people are splashing for him. I, for one, am currently trying out Bob. Perhaps Sylvans would merit trying.

Bardo
08-25-2006, 02:39 PM
I'm inclined to agree with this, except Bob is essentially the same thing, but one fewer card (but maybe for more turns), and some people are splashing for him. I, for one, am currently trying out Bob. Perhaps Sylvans would merit trying.

Confidant at least swings for 2 and can chump if need be. Sylvan just gives you a meager improvement in the matchups where you're already favored, but is generally a bad card in Legacy's creature/aggro-heavy format. At best, there are just better options.

SuckerPunch
08-25-2006, 04:41 PM
I think that you would be paying 2 mana for an enchantment you don't need.

Yeah seriously. If I was going to pay 2 mana for an enchantment I don't need, I would be running Counterbalance. Do you guys have any opinions on Counterbalance by the way. It's been great against some matchups for me, bad against others. But there's a lot of matchups I rarely face.

NANTUKO_SHADY
08-26-2006, 12:19 AM
I have been pondering about the addition of Counterbalance to this deck. I don't play Thresh, but the idea always seemed interesting to me once some people began to suggest it. However, I'm not sure how usueful the card is and what exactly would be cut for the card?

Citrus-God
08-28-2006, 04:53 PM
I dont think Counterbalance is all that in a deck like this. It should be a fine SB card if you run 4 BS, 4 SV, and 4 Portents. I this that's when you should be running Counterbalance.

I see Counterbalance good versus Combo, and some Control... And that's about it..

quicksilver
08-28-2006, 04:56 PM
I dont think Counterbalance is all that in a deck like this. It should be a fine SB card if you run 4 BS, 4 SV, and 4 Portents. I this that's when you should be running Counterbalance.

I see Counterbalance good versus Combo, and some Control... And that's about it..

It seems pretty hot in the mirror match too.

Citrus-God
08-28-2006, 09:12 PM
It seems pretty hot in the mirror match too.

Oh, silly me. I forgot about Thresh's mana curve. Yeah, I guess that too.

SuckerPunch
08-29-2006, 10:27 AM
I've never been a huge fan of Predict. Especially since it doens't let you run Mental Note, which really speeds up your clock a good bit. Thus this is the cantrip base that I'm using now.

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions (I so wish this was an instant)
4 Mental Note
4 Remand

Remand is basically a timewalk. It provides a huge tempo boost esp when it eats up all of your opponents mana for a turn.

There's plenty of times when I leave two mana open for counterspell eventhough the only other cantrips in my hand are sorceries, and I'm disappointed because the spell they cast isn't something worth using my countermagic on. Remand gets around that.

And those rare few situations where it's not a time walk, it often has great synergy with Daze. For example, say they play Withered Wretch with 2 lands untapped. You Remand it and if they recast it, you can Daze it.

It also has great synergy with your other countermagic because it buys you a turn against a bomb to let you know to search like crazy for a hardcounter next turn rather than playing a Mystic Enforcer or something.

I recommend that more people give that card a try.

Atleast post what you think about it.

quicksilver
08-29-2006, 10:34 AM
Remand is intersting. I would like to see someone test it. I don't know how good it will be since it doesn't completly stop the spell, but I would like to see how it would work.

Bardo
08-29-2006, 03:01 PM
I've messed around with Remand in Thresh before and it's kinda hot, kinda not. On the one hand, when you have a clock on the board and you're close to winning, it's sweet since it stalls your opponent, gets you closer to winning and you draw a card. On the down side, when you're losing / under pressure, it's crappy since you need to stop a threat or not die--and there Remand, just stalls your own demise.

In this way, the card seems more of "win more" kind of thing. It's only really good when you're winning, but "not great" at all other times, where Counterspell is just the opposite, or at least even.

Remand, I think, is more fitting in pure combo, to stall for a turn and then just kill you. Thresh kills over several turns--that's why I'd rather just stop a spell for good.

Anyway, this was my experience with Remand in my techy UGbw list ("Witch-Maw Threshold") from a few months back.

SuckerPunch
08-30-2006, 12:22 AM
Yes, but the card Remand isn't Counterspell. The card it's replacing is Portent (or Predict if you choose not to run Mental Note and run Portent in it's place). And it really does feel like you're casting Time Walk.

Benie Bederios
08-30-2006, 05:52 AM
Thresh uses the cantrips to fill up the Graveyard, and making an otherwise 60 carddeck to something like a 52 carddeck. This way it didn't have to play average cards to fill up the last slots.

Remand is an average card. Not a hard counter, sits dead in the hand when your opponent doesn't cast anything, doesn't dig deep in your library. It is only nice when you are winning next turn, but counterspell does the same thing at that moment. It is only usefull against Blue based control with counters. Than you can remand your own spell and let a counter fizzle. But you are probably slowed down a turn and the power of this deck is that it got a fast clock for an aggro-controldeck.

Bardo
08-30-2006, 07:20 PM
Yes, but the card Remand isn't Counterspell. The card it's replacing is Portent (or Predict if you choose not to run Mental Note and run Portent in it's place). And it really does feel like you're casting Time Walk.

But Remand isn't a draw spell either. Yeah, it draws a card, but it's not the same thing. Thresh's draw spells unconditionally draw cards and can be chained together to rip through your library and find what you need. Remand can never do this. It can support you when you're already winning, but we can ask that of a lot of cards that we don't play.

Angel of Despair
09-02-2006, 02:25 PM
I don't know if this has been done before, but it probably has. I play in a Meta that has a lot of black, so for the last couple of weeks that I played thresh, I have played with compost in the sidebord. I have never been upset to draw that card in any black matchup. It is a great way to keep your hand full against discard, and also good for drawing a counterspell or some other amazing peice of this deck. Think about it, if you play in a Meta where black is in:Compost FTW!
Just a thought! It works for me.
~AoD

Reagens
09-04-2006, 09:42 AM
I am currently testing a version of this deck (the Daniel Krutil more or less) and since I expect quite some mirror matches and a meta with more then average control presence to switch (some) galineas knights for river boa's.
The biggest offset would of course be that you can't pitch it to FoW. On the other hand I have difficulty breaking the mirror (I lose the creature war but stay alive because of Worship). And Islandwalk would be nice.
Anyone tested this? And if yes why does or doesn't it work.
I would be inclined to take it as a 2-of because I would be needing it when the game has come to a stalemate.

Angel of Despair
09-04-2006, 11:37 AM
I am currently testing a version of this deck (the Daniel Krutil more or less) and since I expect quite some mirror matches and a meta with more then average control presence to switch (some) galineas knights for river boa's.
The biggest offset would of course be that you can't pitch it to FoW. On the other hand I have difficulty breaking the mirror (I lose the creature war but stay alive because of Worship). And Islandwalk would be nice.
Anyone tested this? And if yes why does or doesn't it work.
I would be inclined to take it as a 2-of because I would be needing it when the game has come to a stalemate.

I personally haven't tested it. I would try it in the sideboard first before deciding to put it in maindeck. That's what your sideboard is for, your own personal touch to your deck. I have mixed feelings about this card. It doesn't seem right for this deck and here is why i think it wouldn't work:
1 It doesn't pitch to force
2 StP
3 When its not being blocked, Werebear and Mongoose can swing FTW.(And they're bigger)

It seems good with the regenerating island walk though..but that doesn't help it against StP. I would be interested to see how you do with it though.

troopatroop
09-04-2006, 02:19 PM
If you want to win the mirror, Play Nanutuko Monastary as an additional Critter.

Nightmare
09-04-2006, 03:28 PM
I took second at The Mana Leak Open 1 yesterday with UGW Thresh. My list and report can be found here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4186).

kabal
09-04-2006, 05:07 PM
I attempted to play Legacy @ DragonCon, but only ended up playing one game of casual against Rw Goblins w/ Bolts since not enough people to play. My brief report and list can be found here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4187).

Besides it basically being the defacto build, I do play 2 impulse (http://magiccards.info/query/2824146/)s and Grunt in the SB.

As for impulse, my cantrips go 4 Brainstorm, 4 Visions, 3 Notes and 2 impulses. 3 notes feels right in all the testing I've done. I use to play Sleight of Hand until I remembered that impulse exists. Which is just awesome late game.

As for Grunt, he is what he is. By now most people realize how effective he is against so many decks.

Bane of the Living
09-19-2006, 06:24 PM
How are most people here preparing for Grunt now? Hes showing up maindeck alot now which is bad for Thresh. Is there any good sb tech?

Elf_Ascetic
09-20-2006, 05:37 AM
(well, it's my first post here, have been playing a lot of legacydecks for a while now, lurking the boards here and active posting at salvation.)

I'll be packing a little more digger spells, to find the necessary StP's for the grunt. Currently playing 4 Brainstorm, 4 Portent, 1 Serum Vision, and 4 Predicts. Though I must say, I didn't get to play against it (yet). I'll let you know my experiences.

Solpugid
09-20-2006, 09:23 AM
Hey all, my first time posting here as well. I've been scanning these forums for about a year now, but I think I finally need to add my two cents.

Ever since grunt came out I've been wanting 2 additonal removal spells (in addition to StP) to include maindeck to stop him from eating my grave entirely. I've tried repeal, boomerang, echoing truth, psionic blast, afterlife, and temporal spring, but each of these seems subpar for this deck (and for the job of dealing with grunt).

If no good, maindeck-worthy creature removal besides StP exists, then I may think about adding some mental notes back in, but MAN do I hate running mental notes in place of portent.

Volt
09-20-2006, 12:43 PM
Hey all, my first time posting here as well. I've been scanning these forums for about a year now, but I think I finally need to add my two cents.

Ever since grunt came out I've been wanting 2 additonal removal spells (in addition to StP) to include maindeck to stop him from eating my grave entirely. I've tried repeal, boomerang, echoing truth, psionic blast, afterlife, and temporal spring, but each of these seems subpar for this deck (and for the job of dealing with grunt).

If no good, maindeck-worthy creature removal besides StP exists, then I may think about adding some mental notes back in, but MAN do I hate running mental notes in place of portent.


Condemn?

throst54
09-20-2006, 01:09 PM
Yeah, I just wrote a post saying condem as well... then I got logged out!

Anyhow, i think condemn would be the best choice, as it'll be of use in other matchups as well where you can commonly run out of answers, namely in my mind, faerie stompy.

I'd rather use Psionic Blast over condemn, but the 3cc is just too much (though it helps if you run disrupting shoal... i only own 2 FoW)

Solpugid
09-20-2006, 05:08 PM
Yeah, I thought about condemn, but never tested it because most of the creatures I desperately want to target don't attack at all. Grunt can often just sit back and eat your grave, acting as a great blocker without entering the red zone until the damage is done. Plus, in so many match-ups (like Iggy or solidarity) is has no purpose at all (besides gaining yourself a bit of life at the expense of tempo and card advantage).

Overall I've not been unhappy with echoing truth. Could it run as a 1 or 2-of, almost as a catch-all answer?

Angel of Despair
09-20-2006, 05:51 PM
First off, you should get 2 more FoW's! It's soo worth it. this deck isn't thresh without 4 Force of Will! secondly, I run 4 Mental Note, and 2 Portent. I cut a 4th Daze for the second Portent. I made top 4 a couple weeks ago with this deck, and I would have this week, but I gave my last opponent the win, because I wanted to leave. Mental Note helps a lot with recovering from the Grunt. More cantrips help too. Daze isn't that great late game anyway. I managed to play through 3 grunts on the Source Tourney, and if I can do it, anyone can!
Good luck all with the Grunt!
AoD

Parcher
09-20-2006, 06:05 PM
I was going to save this for Roanoke, but due to an irrational fear of Affinity, I cut the card from my sideboard.

The additional removal spell you are looking for, that both fits the mana and color curve, and deals with Grunt, as well as a great deal of problematic creatures for Threshold?

Reprisal.

Volt
09-20-2006, 06:12 PM
I was going to save this for Roanoke, but due to an irrational fear of Affinity, I cut the card from my sideboard.

The additional removal spell you are looking for, that both fits the mana and color curve, and deals with Grunt, as well as a great deal of problematic creatures for Threshold?

Reprisal.

That's awesome!

Solpugid
09-20-2006, 07:09 PM
Reprisal sounds awesome for the sideboard, but I was hoping to have a more versatile removal spell for game one. Engineered explosives fits, but I just can't justify running it. I mean, it wipes out a lot of threats, but also wipes out yours. I know Bardo runs it and it seems to do well for him. It is just a matter of playing around it, knowing you have it in your deck?

I think maybe my problem is I'm looking for a removal spell that doesn't exist...

Angel of Despair
09-20-2006, 07:25 PM
Reprisal sounds awesome for the sideboard, but I was hoping to have a more versatile removal spell for game one. Engineered explosives fits, but I just can't justify running it. I mean, it wipes out a lot of threats, but also wipes out yours. I know Bardo runs it and it seems to do well for him. It is just a matter of playing around it, knowing you have it in your deck?

I think maybe my problem is I'm looking for a removal spell that doesn't exist...

Engineered Explosives is also an excellent choice. I play 2 MD as well. Trust me, you will not mind losing a Werebear if you have a goose and an enforcer that can recover and beat face. There is no shortage of creatures in this deck that can make up for a lost bear. My deck hasn't really been horribly devistated by Jotun Grunt. Maybe its Mental Note, maybe its Portent, maybe its Explosives...I dont know, but that little bitch will never make me scoop!

Bane of the Living
09-20-2006, 08:03 PM
Threads of Disloyalty seems promising because creature control is always better than removal. Its blue so it also pitches to FoW. You dont need to worry about having white mana for it. The ability to steal an opposing Werebear or even the dreaded Grunt would be amazing in the mirror match. Imagine forcing your opponent to swords their own grunt? The only slop I see is the sorc speed. But its not like you dont play 7-8 free counterspells.

Reprisal is nice but there are so many creatures in Legacy it doesnt kill. It does kill Enforcer, Fledgling, Grunt, and Negator, but thats about it.

Solpugid
09-20-2006, 09:29 PM
Reprisal is nice but there are so many creatures in Legacy it doesnt kill. It does kill Enforcer, Fledgling, Grunt, and Negator, but thats about it.

And exalted angel, and a pumped-up goblin piledriver, and sea drake, and werebear. I'm not trying to be rude here, I'm just saying that as a sideboard card it has a lot of good targets.

On another note, I'll try out two explosives in my build and see how I like them. I suppose i should have tested them already, though.:rolleyes:

Parcher
09-20-2006, 11:25 PM
My 2 cents about Threads of Disloyalty; It is Sorcery speed, rough in this deck. It costs three, also rough. The big problem is that it's double Blue. There are usually only three cards in the deck that require this.

The other problem is that there are way more targets for, say Reprisal, than Threads. It can give a much larger swing, but that matters little when Akroma is swinging on turn two. Or an Myr Enforcer on turn three. It also gives the option of naming Swords with Meddling Mage

I think Explosives is the best of the lot, but I have tested Threads, and as tight a sideboard as Threshold runs, I can't see it.

overlord95
09-20-2006, 11:50 PM
My 2 cents about Threads of Disloyalty; The big problem is that it's double Blue. There are usually only three cards in the deck that require this.
How is this a problem for a deck that plays all blue produceing lands or lands that get blue produceing lands(with the exception of the forest and if you play it, the plains)? Call me crazy but I dont think thats a big problem.

@Reprisal: In what match ups would you rather Reprisal over Radiant's Judgement?

Bardo
09-20-2006, 11:51 PM
Really, just try the Explosives; they're nutz. I've been running them for more than two years in this deck and haven't dropped them yet. Since April I've had one in the maindeck and one in the sideboard--and they're really good, wherever you run them.

Citrus-God
09-21-2006, 12:38 AM
EE, Threads, and/or Reprisal... wow.

EE I have used forever as a metagame card. It's been doing very well for me. The fact that the mirror, or something random pops up makes it godly in so many match ups.

Threads and Reprisal look promising. I'm going to give it a shot.

NoGameShow
09-21-2006, 01:07 AM
Has Condemn been considered as alternate removal. Granted it doesn't permanently get rid of the critter but putting it on the bottom of the library is pretty close.The life loss could be a problem but hey you run Swords.

Parcher
09-21-2006, 10:09 AM
How is this a problem for a deck that plays all blue produceing lands or lands that get blue produceing lands(with the exception of the forest and if you play it, the plains)? Call me crazy but I dont think thats a big problem.

@Reprisal: In what match ups would you rather Reprisal over Radiant's Judgement?

It's a problem because this deck under optimal conditions rarely has more than three lands on the table. Since against almost any Aggro deck, at least one of these will be a Basic, it means you lose the ability to even bluff a Counterspell. No, it's not a big problem on it's own, but it is one of many.

And since I only consider Reprisal as a sideboard card, I would choose it over a card costing one more every time.

EDIT:@Bardo: Since you run a version of the deck that is dependant on playing Mental Note, how often do you find your singletons milled? I agree about the overall applications of Engineered Explosives, but with only one maindeck(and only one Enforcer), I wonder how often it is either undrawn or milled.

Elf_Ascetic
09-21-2006, 11:23 AM
Explosives really is great vs. a lot of decks. I've been playing 2 SB since, well, since i started to build this deck.

Another card I recently ran into: Worship. It's not a solution for the grunt, I know, but for a lot of other deck, it certainly works well. Vindicate, Humility and hardcounters are the only things you have to fear with a Mongoose + Worship. I've been planning to run 1 copy of it mainboard, mainly 'cause I didn't want to make room for it in the sideboard. The advantage of running one random copy is that there's no good sideboard option for the opponent. Is he packing enchantment removal, he has 2 or 3 dead cards. Isn't he packing it, you will have an additional win condition.

What do you guys think of this random option?

Bardo
09-21-2006, 12:07 PM
EDIT:@Bardo: Since you run a version of the deck that is dependant on playing Mental Note, how often do you find your singletons milled? I agree about the overall applications of Engineered Explosives, but with only one maindeck(and only one Enforcer), I wonder how often it is either undrawn or milled.

It does happen, which is why I'm running the two basic Islands--by far, the most important basic in the deck (but regardless of MN, 2 Islands just feels right). Anyway, I've dredged Enforcers and EEs away before but have gone on to win those games anyway.

There are few matches--game 1 anyhow--where you absolutely need Enforcer or EE (my only nonland maindeck singletons), I think you can go down to 0 in the maindeck of both and still pull out most of matches.

In games 2/3 where you really want EE and Enforcer, the mirror let's say, then you're not dredging singleton's there either and the basic land isn't a problem since hardly any Thresh decks run Wasteland, etc. In fact the only "land destruction" you may run into is Stifle.

Basically, you really can't be afraid of dredging stuff, for the reasons explained very well here (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10898.html):

Magical Myth #1: Milling Away Good Cards

"John is playing Dredgeatog against Affinity. He lost the first game, but in the second game he's managed to stabilize at a healthy sixteen life against an unimpressive attack force of Frogmite and Blinkmoth Nexus. Both players have no cards in hand. John decides to use this opportunity dredge up his Life from the Loam. He has a couple of fetchlands and a Barren Moor in the graveyard, so this choice is well-justified.

“'Dredge my Life from the Loam,'” John announces. The cost of dredge Millstones away, in order, Smother, Counterspell, and Counterspell.

“'Ugh!'” he says. “Look at all that juice! Worst dredge ever. Thanks a lot, Life from the Loam.”

"John plays Life from the Loam, cycles the Barren Moor, and draws Pernicious Deed. He slams down the enchantment, destroys his opponent's entire board, and wins the game a couple of turns later with Psychatog.

"Meanwhile, in a parallel universe, the exact same game of Magic is taking place… Except in this one, John decides not to dredge that Life from the Loam. Instead, John draws the Smother that is on top of his library. The Affinity player draws and plays a Cranial Plating, attaches it to the Frogmite, and attacks for seven damage.

“'Ouch!”' John thinks. “I could really use a Pernicious Deed about now.” John draws Counterspell – the same Counterspell that was milled away by Life from the Loam in the alternate universe. “Bummer,” he says. “That's not a Deed.”

"The Affinity player draws and plays an artifact land, so John takes eight damage. He enters his draw step at a precarious one life and rips another Counterspell. Facing certain death, John extends his hand in defeat, signs the match result slip, and flips over the top card of his library – just to see what was coming up next.

"Pernicious Deed.

"He slaps his forehead. “Of course it was the next card. God, I hate Magic.”

“'Thanks a lot, Life from the Loam'” indeed.

"My point is this: Milling away “good cards” means nothing over the course of your average, medium-length game of Magic. All that matters in most games is the specific card waiting on top of your library when you reach your draw step. Since your deck is randomized, you have just as good a chance of drawing any one of your cards in any one of your draw steps.

"Yes, it's demoralizing when you Mental Note away two cards you really wanted. But, it's no reason to get angry and think about cutting the Mental Note entirely from your deck. The Note had a chance to peel away two lands you didn't need and move the card you were looking for from “four draw steps away” to “right on top.” People tend to remember the bad mills they get, and overlook the good ones. Unless you're setting up your deck with cards like Sensei's Divining Top, it's all completely random.

"A lot of people were afraid to play Commune with Nature during Kamigawa Block Limited. “What if I put my Dance of Shadows on the bottom of my deck? That would suck!” Well, what if your Dance of Shadows is already on the bottom? That turn 1 Commune is the only way you'll ever see it.

"Seriously, folks, don't freak out about this stuff.

"For the sake of thoroughness, I will mention that Milling away good cards is relevant in very specific situations. It becomes an issue, for example, when you remove one-ofs from your library that you were planning on tutoring for. It's an issue when you're playing a very long war of attrition in which victory by decking may come into play. It matters when your deck has a very small number of threats, all of which you must fight to keep in your deck (In the Flores Blue mirror match in Standard, for example, you don't want to be Milling away any of your creatures for any reason. If you lose copies of your Meloku, Jushi Apprentice, and Keiga, you might find you are left with no ways to win).

"A majority of the time, however, Milling past random unknown cards doesn't hurt you one bit. Don't worry about it!"

Parcher
09-21-2006, 12:30 PM
Thank you for your, as always, well thought out reply. I am familiar with the both the article, and it's application. I have played more games with Life from the Loam in a control deck than I care to adimit.

More directly to the point; Why would you choose to run a card that while is potentially game-breaking when properly applied, you statisically have little chance to use?

A Visions, or Brainstom can set up a Mental Note to avoid this, so the mill effect itself may be inconsequential, but with the relatively limited amount of cantrips run in your version of the deck, the chance of milling, and the fact that the card is only a one-of, I would be more concerned with a potentially wasted slot or two than fear or dredging my only out.

It's not that I consider this a bad strategy, and I'm certain you have run through almost every possible scenario with this deck. I was more forming the opinion that you could take more advantage of Game one if you had access to an additional copy of a card like Explosives or Enforcer, which give such a large swing against a mulititude of decks.

Solpugid
09-21-2006, 05:14 PM
I was more forming the opinion that you could take more advantage of Game one if you had access to an additional copy of a card like Explosives or Enforcer, which give such a large swing against a mulititude of decks.

I run two enforcers maindeck, and I wouldn't even consider dropping one. This may be due to my metagame (very aggro and deadguy heavy), but I absolutely love him.

I'll also be trying engineered explosives as a 2-of maindeck to see if I like it. I'll be sure to let you know how my testing turns out.

Bardo
09-21-2006, 06:29 PM
More directly to the point; Why would you choose to run a card that while is potentially game-breaking when properly applied, you statisically have little chance to use?

I'm no mathematician, but with the deck's drawing power, you find the singletons far more than you'd think.

I'm running 12 cantrips, starting from 16 a year ago (and 14 sometime in the middle there) and you still see a ton of cards in your deck. SV and Brainstorm/fetch moves you through your deck quickly and MN essentially makes the deck a 56-58 card deck alone. Mathematically, I really can't explain it, but you see the 1-ofs frequently. Though I'm having a hard time explaining the phenomenon. :)

@ Solpugid - I think you can go down to 0 Enforcers and still do well. Going back to my first article (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/8731.html) on the deck (written in early December 2004), you can see I was running 3 for the same reason you mentioned.

But I've learned that the deck is still really strong without them. And I'm surprised by the amount of times I sideboard out my only maindeck copy. I think this position is also validated by Summersberger's First Place GP: Lille deck (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/gplill05/t8decks) which didn't run any guys that cost more the 2 mana (i.e. no Enforcer/Dragon).

AnwarA101
09-21-2006, 07:19 PM
I'm no mathematician, but with the deck's drawing power, you find the singletons far more than you'd think.

I'm running 12 cantrips, starting from 16 a year ago (and 14 sometime in the middle there) and you still see a ton of cards in your deck. SV and Brainstorm/fetch moves you through your deck quickly and MN essentially makes the deck a 56-58 card deck alone. Mathematically, I really can't explain it, but you see the 1-ofs frequently. Though I'm having a hard time explaining the phenomenon. :)


Mental Note does little to help you find singleton cards except to trash those cards from Brainstorm that are bad. It essentially draws 1 random card.

Bardo
09-21-2006, 08:12 PM
Mental Note does little to help you find singleton cards except to trash those cards from Brainstorm that are bad. It essentially draws 1 random card.

Nonetheless, I stand by what I said earlier: I find the singletons in my hand far more often than you'd think.

Obfuscate Freely
09-21-2006, 08:46 PM
Nonetheless, I stand by what I said earlier: I find the singletons in my hand far more often than you'd think.
I think what Parcher was trying to get at is that finding the singletons "more often than you'd think" isn't necessarily better than finding them more often than that. On the other hand, if seeing the cards more often would actually be bad for some reason, it's very possible you shouldn't be running any copies at all.

The bottom line is that unique singletons are very difficult to justify as optimal, even in a deck with velocity.

Phantom
09-21-2006, 10:10 PM
Nonetheless, I stand by what I said earlier: I find the singletons in my hand far more often than you'd think.

I completely agree with Bardo here and actually came to the same conclusion spereatly. I love the two one-ofs and would never drop to 0 or bump up to one. At least not in this meta.

My reasoning for 1-of EE and Enforcer goes something like this:

I'm running a deck with 17-18 land. If I run enough draw to get 4 mana reliably, then I'm running enough draw to find a one of somewhat reliably. Also, there are virtually no matchups which hinge on either of these cards.

Also, these two cards are often dead, unneeded (namely in the combo matchup) or uncastable. That's where the shuffle and scry effects come in handy. When I bury a one of, I'm unlikely to see it again. What's even more useful are the 6 mill effects I run. If you can set up a mill of a one of, you never need to worry about it popping up again.

I don't know that this is 100% and it may vary from meta to meta, but it's worked very well for me at least.

Angel of Despair
09-21-2006, 10:28 PM
I run 2 Mystic Enforcers, and 2 EE. I also play 4 Mental Note. I have been doing really well at my local tournaments with this build. I win a lot of games because I draw into both of my Enforcers. It feels awesome to beat your opponent with 2 Enforcers and a goose and/or a bear. Mental Note is simply amazing! I play 4 MN and 2 portent. It works really well for me..

Solpugid
09-21-2006, 10:33 PM
I used to run mental note myself, but I found that I really wanted more card selection in my cantrips, so I made the switch to portent. I followed this up by adding in predict as a 3-of, since it can provide great card advantage late game and quick threshold (since I don't have note) early game.

I know this debate (i.e. portent vs. predict vs. mental note) has been beaten to death in past posts/threads, but I wanted to chime in with my testing results. The way I play this deck is very controllish. This may have a lot to do with the number of aggro decks in my area, against which I have no choice but to play as a control deck. Because of this I've found that quick threshold is less important than more late-game control/stability. Thus, portent over mental note. These circumstances also make mystic enforcer attractive, since I go late in the game and never have trouble playing him.

Bardo, you seem to have a more aggro-control build, or at least play the deck in that way, compared to myself. Considering this, would you still suggest I run mental notes?

(by the way, this question isn't really just for Bardo, I just wanted to ask him personally since he's had so much experience with this deck)

Parcher
09-21-2006, 11:24 PM
In what I have found recently, and I think Nightmare's recent results confirm this, is that Mental Note has become more integral to this deck due to the implementation of Jotun Grunt. Not only is he a 4/4 Tormod's Crypt in the mirror, but several Fish varients, viable only due to his inclusion, are popping up in some large tournament slots.

The whole reason I posed the original question to Bardo is due to the fact that the majority of my experience playing the deck eschewed Mental Note due to my own asthetic reasons.

Now that I am avidly for it's current inclusion, I needed some insight into the viability of the singletons I had been previously using without worry. I think the compromises Nightmare made at TML allow the maintaining of Threshold, while still viably allowing both the card selection needed to support the unique cards, and the deck's velocity.

Bane of the Living
09-22-2006, 07:26 AM
I think the whole MN vs Predict thing is now settled and done now that Grunt has arrived. He tools builds without MN, period.

tivadar
09-22-2006, 12:52 PM
Yeah, but an early mental note can feed Grunt as well. I still think it comes down to whether you want a more controlish version or aggro. If you want the first, predict, if you want the second, mental note.

I'm just curious, I hardly see grunt anywhere maindeck. Once you hit SB, I think crypt is clearly better for most decks (excluding perhaps homebrew, or MAYBE the mirror). Does your meta have a lot of grunting? Does this deck want to run Grunt? It seems like a horrible idea main, as in many matches he eats your own graveyard or is a dead card.

Solpugid
09-22-2006, 02:19 PM
Just here to post some testing results:

I did quite a bit of testing last night against some random decks (not tier1 decks, since I tend to see randomness more often) and I found that far too often engineered explosives was not the card I wanted. Frequently I'd be facing a large (exalted angel-sized) creature, which EE was unable to blow up. Other times I'd fail to counter a key artifact or enchantment that was along the same cost as the creatures I wanted to save (one game I was even owned by some flying chump wearing two cranial platings, while I attack with two werebears). Then of course there are the times when what I really need is a counterspell (wrath of god sucks), but don't have it.

In short, I wasn't too impressed during my testing. So I switched out the two EE for echoing truth and tested some matchups again, and wow! Echoing truth acted as a removal spell (however temporary) to get a big creature out of the way so I could attack freely. It bounced humility and vedalken shackles at opportune times, allowing me again to swing for the win. It also pops enforcers or bears back to my hand before wrath resolves (unfortunately, I never got to play against wrath with truth in my deck).

My point is, echoing truth is weak as creature removal. It's weak as an end-of-turn trick. It's weak as artifact and enchantment removal, and it's weak as a counterspell. But just that it can act as all of those things over the course of a game has made it a great option in my eyes. Feel free to call me an idiot for playing that card maindeck, but as long as I continue to get positive testing results from it I think it'll stay in my build.

As for the mental notes to combat grunts: I don't see enough grunts to warrant that switch yet, but I'll be looking out for it.

Bane of the Living
09-22-2006, 04:44 PM
You guys might have a meta where it takes a while for things to catch on.. No offense at all. But Grunt is the most format impacting card in the legacy pool for some time now. Ravnica may have given us good cards but Grunt is of par with Confidant on the powerscale. He's great in Thresh, he's better against it. If no ones playing them in your meta bust him out cause he's a real asskicker. But be prepared to take him down too.

Obfuscate Freely
09-22-2006, 05:43 PM
Jotun Grunt doesn't make Mental Note any better. If my opponent is playing Jotun Grunt, I want to be able to find an answer to it, which Mental Note is extremely poor at.

That aside, Jotun Grunt is hardly a format-defining card, anyway. It's just another decent, playable card with more than its share of hype surrounding it.

Clark Kant
09-25-2006, 02:08 AM
Since people are suggesting suboptimal cards like Reprisal and Threads of Disloyalty to deal with problem creatures, bc apparently, 4 Swords and 14 cantrips isn't enough, has anyone considered Psionic Blast.

I can't believe I'm suggesting it, I've never been too big a fan of the card in Fairie Stompy. But it does act as removal, and when you have nothing to remove, it's a very good win condition. At worst, it pitches to Force.

Solpugid
09-25-2006, 12:41 PM
I've thought about psionic blast, but was never fond of the idea of a 3-mana removal spell that hurts you. Against aggro, where removal is possibly most needed, it seems fairly risky (due to damage and cost).

That's why I love echoing truth: no damage to you, 2-cc, tempo advantage, and can work on artifacts and enchantments if need be.

lillelassie
09-25-2006, 04:05 PM
If you have troubles against creatures, I suggest you use the red splash instead of the white. Lighning Bolt, magma jet and Fire/Ice is good here, Isochron Scepter might also work.

The red splash is simply better against creatures and are more aggro-oriented. StP gives you opponenet livepoints + it cannot shoot to the dome.

The white splash have better games vs. control and combo.

I guess you already know this, but there is no point in adding more removal to the white splash, as the red will do the job just as well. Also both splashes might be the way to go.

Solpugid
09-25-2006, 05:27 PM
I used to play the red version instead of the white, but over time I liked it less and less. Yeah, it's better against goblins and random aggro, but weaker against more mid-range aggro and aggro control (as in angel stompy). I made the switch when I realized how much this deck wanted StP. After all, threshed gooses and bears wreck creatures within the range of fire and magma jet. But, leaving my precious 8-burn spell suite behind (I'll miss you bolt), I'm now in a position of wanting a tad more removal.

Elf_Ascetic
09-25-2006, 05:29 PM
If you have troubles against creatures, I suggest you use the red splash instead of the white. Lighning Bolt, magma jet and Fire/Ice is good here, Isochron Scepter might also work.

The red splash is simply better against creatures and are more aggro-oriented. StP gives you opponenet livepoints + it cannot shoot to the dome.

The white splash have better games vs. control and combo.

I guess you already know this, but there is no point in adding more removal to the white splash, as the red will do the job just as well. Also both splashes might be the way to go.

But the Red splash hasn't a spell for the hated Grunt, where White at least has StP.

Clark Kant
09-25-2006, 10:55 PM
We have three colors to work with and we still can't find any removal beyond StP, lol.

White>red so going back to red isn't the answer.

How about Jitte, the removal of choice for every nonred deck out there, it lets our beaters win even without threshold. Two Jitte counters with counter backup and our guys are unstoppable, even without any cards in the graveyard.

Solpugid
09-26-2006, 12:46 AM
Jitte can't attach to a third of our creatures, though. Werebear and enforcer (if you even run any) are its only wielders. And then nantuko monastery if you run them, but just not enough.

Citrus-God
09-26-2006, 01:10 AM
The only builds I've seen that run Jittes were Krutil's buld and Bardo's Witch-Mat Thresh... then you run Jittes, but they still suck in Thresh.

I say this because only 6 creatures with live through combat. Those 6 creatures are usually Bears and Enforcers. Now if you want some kind of consistent answer to things like Grunt, just run more Removal.

lillelassie
09-26-2006, 07:15 AM
If you want to stick to white you could play the semi-StP in Condemn as an additional option. Although it doesn´t kill creatures on the defense, it only cost one mana. It´s the only removal-spell I find worthy maindecking.

Citrus-God
09-26-2006, 07:38 PM
I personally thought Reprisal is pretty sexy tech. I suppose Condemn works too. Vedalken Shackles might work, since a majority of the lands are Islands.

Bardo
09-27-2006, 01:44 PM
The bottom line is that unique singletons are very difficult to justify as optimal, even in a deck with velocity.

In the abstract, I agree completely. From my own point of view, it's one of those "funny numbers" things that just feels right after several hundred games with the deck. But it looks shifty.


Bardo, you seem to have a more aggro-control build, or at least play the deck in that way, compared to myself. Considering this, would you still suggest I run mental notes?

I think you should run whatever gives you the best results. My build was designed to push the aggro aspect of Threshold, so I don't have to worry about controlling the late game as much, since, ideally, I wouldn't find myself there.

But I've said this before and I'll say it again: I don't think there is any one holy and correct configuration of the deck that is "the best." There are just some that are better than others, but the deck should be fluid and run certain cards for an anticipated metagame or for the element of well-reasoned surprise (maindeck Stifle, for instance).

I prefer the aggro-version of the deck, because given the opportunity, I'd much rather scout, hang out with friends, and--location permitting--get a beer and a shot of Wild Turkey, than slug it out with more turns than I really need to win. The question here is: does a more "control-oriented" build contribute to winning more? I don't honestly think it does, given a "mixed" field--where aggro, combo and control are represented. I'm trying to find the version that best makes this happen without making painful sacrifices against my already favorable match-ups.


In what I have found recently, and I think Nightmare's recent results confirm this, is that Mental Note has become more integral to this deck due to the implementation of Jotun Grunt. Not only is he a 4/4 Tormod's Crypt in the mirror, but several Fish varients, viable only due to his inclusion, are popping up in some large tournament slots.


Jotun Grunt is hardly a format-defining card, anyway. It's just another decent, playable card with more than its share of hype surrounding it.

Yep, the hype is overdone. It's a good card, but arguments for and against Mental Note vis-a-vis Grunt are pointless. It can really go either way.


Since people are suggesting suboptimal cards like Reprisal and Threads of Disloyalty to deal with problem creatures, bc apparently, 4 Swords and 14 cantrips isn't enough, has anyone considered Psionic Blast.

I had double Psionic Blasts in earlier builds. At best, it was overkill; at worst, the 3cc cost was too much. But it was always a nice surprise that would bring a smile to at least one player at the table. :)

Re: Reprisal. Do we really need this? 4 StP seems enough, whether or not you go the EE-route. With any more, you're not really playing up the aggro part of the deck and are playing something else. It's also too situational, like if you need to kill MoR, a Tog on defense, etc.


The only builds I've seen that run Jittes were Krutil's buld and Bardo's Witch-Mat Thresh... then you run Jittes, but they still suck in Thresh.

Even in Witch-Maw, it's kinda crap, for the obvious reason. All of the weilders are either flimsy attackers (Bob + Mage) or really overkill again (Werebear, Enforcer). Chalk up "Jitte + Thresh" as an interesting idea that isn't. ;) It would probaby be better if Thresh were Standard-legal and you could "disenchant" opposing copies (Jitte isn't exactly a format-defining card in Legacy) or drop it as an occasional bomb. But the risk of tempo-loss (removal in response to the equipping), in a tempo-exploiting deck, seems counterproductive.


I personally thought Reprisal is pretty sexy tech. I suppose Condemn works too. Vedalken Shackles might work, since a majority of the lands are Islands.

I think these are all good ideas, but it would be a different deck. For one, you'd need to increase the land count to hit 3 mana on turn 3 and would have gain advantage over aggro at the expense of the combo match-up. For instance, Shackles or Threads do little in repsonse to a Brain Freeze for 51. ;) I'm not sold.

Parcher
09-27-2006, 05:17 PM
Yep, the hype is overdone. It's a good card, but arguments for and against Mental Note vis-a-vis Grunt are pointless. It can really go either way.

I agree about Mental Note, but not about the hype. Grunt is insane in the mirror for several reasons. It can't be needled. It is as large or larger than every other creature naturally, and can easily decrease the size of opposing creatures. If played in conjunction with Meddling Mage naming Swords, can neutralize your opponent's entire creature base. Can completely stop Ichorid,(rare, I know) Threshold's second-worst matchup, in two turns. First, stuff Wonder, block Ichorids, then the rest of their creatures. They also only have Needle to stop graveyard hate, so Crypt is unviable. Whereas they have literally no creature removal.


RE:Reprisal. Do we really need this? 4 StP seems enough, whether or not you go the EE-route. With any more, you're not really playing up the aggro part of the deck and are playing something else. It's also too situational, like if you need to kill MoR, a Tog on defense, etc.

No, I don't think it is needed. But, before I decided this, I did playtest it extensively, and found it to be the best of the spot removal available to the White version.


I think these are all good ideas, but it would be a different deck. For one, you'd need to increase the land count to hit 3 mana on turn 3 and would have gain advantage over aggro at the expense of the combo match-up. For instance, Shackles or Threads do little in repsonse to a Brain Freeze for 51. ;) I'm not sold.


Agree in entirety, but I think your example is wrong. I don't think anyone seriously considered using any of these cards in the main deck. And I would hope that they did not side them in against Solidarity.

Citrus-God
09-28-2006, 12:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ob Freely
The bottom line is that unique singletons are very difficult to justify as optimal, even in a deck with velocity.


In the abstract, I agree completely. From my own point of view, it's one of those "funny numbers" things that just feels right after several hundred games with the deck. But it looks shifty.


Quote:
Bardo, you seem to have a more aggro-control build, or at least play the deck in that way, compared to myself. Considering this, would you still suggest I run mental notes?

I think you should run whatever gives you the best results. My build was designed to push the aggro aspect of Threshold, so I don't have to worry about controlling the late game as much, since, ideally, I wouldn't find myself there.

But I've said this before and I'll say it again: I don't think there is any one holy and correct configuration of the deck that is "the best." There are just some that are better than others, but the deck should be fluid and run certain cards for an anticipated metagame or for the element of well-reasoned surprise (maindeck Stifle, for instance).

I prefer the aggro-version of the deck, because given the opportunity, I'd much rather scout, hang out with friends, and--location permitting--get a beer and a shot of Wild Turkey, than slug it out with more turns than I really need to win. The question here is: does a more "control-oriented" build contribute to winning more? I don't honestly think it does, given a "mixed" field--where aggro, combo and control are represented. I'm trying to find the version that best makes this happen without making painful sacrifices against my already favorable match-ups.


The only problems I had with the more controlish versions were the fact I tapped out to find anwers at late game, and tapped out because of the chain of cantrips I used to find those answers. But other than that, the only losses I have ever had... ever, was to Helmut Summersberger 4c Thresh... Naming Swords with Meddling Mage is tech. That gave me trouble Game 1. Games 2 and 3 were so much better for me because of Monastery and Grunt.

I have never had any trouble with the Mental Note version... Unless they brought the game all the way to Midgame. The way I play the Mental Note Version is like 5/3... I played it too much like Aggro/Prison, Counters being my Time Walks midgame and Chalices early game.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
In what I have found recently, and I think Nightmare's recent results confirm this, is that Mental Note has become more integral to this deck due to the implementation of Jotun Grunt. Not only is he a 4/4 Tormod's Crypt in the mirror, but several Fish varients, viable only due to his inclusion, are popping up in some large tournament slots.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ob Freely
Jotun Grunt is hardly a format-defining card, anyway. It's just another decent, playable card with more than its share of hype surrounding it.


Yep, the hype is overdone. It's a good card, but arguments for and against Mental Note vis-a-vis Grunt are pointless. It can really go either way.



Grunt I admit is a good card.... but it's not all that great IMO. Grunt isnt a format defining card, but it's by far one of the strongest SB options availible to White.



Quote:

Since people are suggesting suboptimal cards like Reprisal and Threads of Disloyalty to deal with problem creatures, bc apparently, 4 Swords and 14 cantrips isn't enough, has anyone considered Psionic Blast.

I had double Psionic Blasts in earlier builds. At best, it was overkill; at worst, the 3cc cost was too much. But it was always a nice surprise that would bring a smile to at least one player at the table. :)

Re: Reprisal. Do we really need this? 4 StP seems enough, whether or not you go the EE-route. With any more, you're not really playing up the aggro part of the deck and are playing something else. It's also too situational, like if you need to kill MoR, a Tog on defense, etc.



I was thinking about Psionic Blast.... weird. I knew I didnt want to run Reprisal or Condemn. I personally thought they sucked. So I decided that Psionic Blast would be cool, and finishing an opponent off Sea Stompy style was even cooler.

4 Swords may be enough, but SBing more removal is never a bad strategy since this is a creature format.

Angel of Despair
09-29-2006, 11:37 AM
@ Bardo: I have a couple of questions. I'm sorry if you've already answered them. 1st, can you post your current sideboard for me? I am looking to change my sideboard, If anyone else runs Grunt in the sideboard, or has one they swear by, the only thing I have to keep in is my PIMP Armageddon's.
My second question is, do you ever wish you ran 2 Enforcers? If you did what would change in your list? I took out a Counterspell for my 2nd one, and I never wish it was anything else. That card wins me games. Nobody likes to see him 2x on the table. Thanx for your time!
AoD

Nightmare
09-29-2006, 01:26 PM
@ Bardo: I have a couple of questions. I'm sorry if you've already answered them. 1st, can you post your current sideboard for me? I am looking to change my sideboard, If anyone else runs Grunt in the sideboard, or has one they swear by, the only thing I have to keep in is my PIMP Armageddon's.
My second question is, do you ever wish you ran 2 Enforcers? If you did what would change in your list? I took out a Counterspell for my 2nd one, and I never wish it was anything else. That card wins me games. Nobody likes to see him 2x on the table. Thanx for your time!
AoDI'm not sure if you want other people's boards or just Dan's, but here is mine from TML1:

2x Naturalize
2x Pithing Needle (1 Main)
2x Hydroblast
2x BEB
3x Armageddon
3x Jotun Grunt
1x Mystic Enforcer (1 Main)

Angel of Despair
09-29-2006, 02:00 PM
I'm not sure if you want other people's boards or just Dan's, but here is mine from TML1:

2x Naturalize
2x Pithing Needle (1 Main)
2x Hydroblast
2x BEB
3x Armageddon
3x Jotun Grunt
1x Mystic Enforcer (1 Main)

Thanks. Yes, I was looking for other great boards. Do you play EE at all? Do you put the 2nd Enforcer in a lot?

Nightmare
09-29-2006, 02:09 PM
Thanks. Yes, I was looking for other great boards. Do you play EE at all? Do you put the 2nd Enforcer in a lot?I play 1 MD Explosives, as does Dan, and I don't actually side in Enforcer #2 very often. He comes in vs. Decks sporting mostly black removal, when I need another fat dude (reanimator, etc.) and when he trumps their threats (the mirror splash red).

umbowta
09-29-2006, 02:31 PM
I'm not sure if you want other people's boards or just Dan's, but here is mine from TML1:

2x Naturalize
2x Pithing Needle (1 Main)
2x Hydroblast
2x BEB
3x Armageddon
3x Jotun Grunt
1x Mystic Enforcer (1 Main)
My board differs, as follows, for a meta which has seen a little more Affinity lately.

1x Pimping Needle (2 Main)
2x Hydroblast
2x BEB (Beta)
3x Armageddon (Currently Portal 1 but looking for P2)
3x Jotun Grunt (1 is Foil...send me your foil Grunts)
1x Mystic Enforcer (1 Main)
3x Null Rod

I'm currently running 2 Disenchants main with the extra Needle. I like the Disenchants because they pump my Dryads (yes, I've given up on Werebears...tooo much yard hate) but I'm going to give EE a try one of these days in the Disenchant spot.

Bardo
09-29-2006, 03:15 PM
4 Swords may be enough, but SBing more removal is never a bad strategy since this is a creature format.

In my sideboard, I'm alreadying running 4 Hydroblast and another EE--not including the Tivadar's Crusades and Naturalizes. So, I agree that siding into additional removal is correct.

Which segues nicely into...


@ Bardo: 1st, can you post your current sideboard for me?

Sideboard
4 Hydroblast
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Armageddon
2 Tivadar's Crusade
2 Naturalize
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Mystic Enforcer

(I posted the rest of my list in an SCG thread earlier (http://www.starcitygames.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=651245#651245).)

As for Grunt, I had to drop one of my own pimp 'Geddons (from Portal 2K) as well and the Worships to make room for them. As much as I love Worship, it was always sort of a win-more game and it's never won me a game that I wasn't already going to win. But I've considered running one or two Worship(s) maindeck just for the raw "fuck you" factor. But the 4cc casting cost... (Which, again, segues nicely into...)


My second question is, do you ever wish you ran 2 Enforcers? If you did what would change in your list? I took out a Counterspell for my 2nd one, and I never wish it was anything else. That card wins me games. Nobody likes to see him 2x on the table.

The short answer is "no."

I've played this deck a lot and, over time, noticed that I was moving-to-the-bottom/shuffling-away Enforcer far more often than I expected. That got me from three to two Enforcers, and then from two to one.

I've considered dropping my lone maindeck one on occasion, but he's a nice surprise when he shows up. But generally, in this deck, I'm wary of running any card that I don't want to see in my opening hand--and 4cc cards are something I never want to see (I also dropped FoF from my build long ago for the same reason). And Enforcer is something you never want to see early, unless you're playing against Black aggro or some such.

But, to answer your question, I'm not sure what I'd drop to make room for a second Enforcer. Maybe replace a Meddling Mage with the Enforcer slot in the sideboard? Otherwise, I'd tinker with my 2 Pithing Needle / 1 Engineered Explosives slots and see what I can drop there. Maybe 1 / 1 + Enforcer? Again, I'd need to test for a bit and see what worked. But I don't think that's necessary. 1 Enforcer is plenty.

Nightmare
09-29-2006, 03:26 PM
Sideboard
4 Hydroblast
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Armageddon
2 Tivadar's Crusade
2 Naturalize
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Mystic Enforcer


I find it interesting how close our SBs (and maindecks) are, considering that we've never worked on the deck together. Goblins has all but dissapeared near me, so it isn't a factor anymore - which is why I can get away with running no direct hate in the board for it. Basically, take my board, add Goblins into the metagame, and you get Bardo's board.

Angel of Despair
09-29-2006, 05:13 PM
Thanks guys, My sideboard was mainly against Black anything. You also got me thinking about putting that 2nd enforcer into my sideboard. I played maindeck Worship for a time, but I took it out completely. It seemed a bit overkill. It also got really annoying against Angel Stompy...

valor
09-29-2006, 11:57 PM
While were on the topic of sideboards this is what I went with today:

3 Naturalize
2 Geddon
3 BeB
2 Echoing Truth
2 Worship
1 Enforcer
1 Stifle

It was a completely new place to play so I had no idea what to expect really, but I wounp up playing my freinds landstillish thing and drawing out, then lost to Phage of all things in FEB. The moral of the story: I really wish I had some form of grave hate. Next time I'm going for Grunts, I feel like they would have won me a few of the games that I lost. The format seems to have so many grave based decks that I can't see it being bad.

I think that next time I would go with:

2 Stifle
1 Enforcer
2 Geddon
2 Worship
2 Naturalize
2 BeB
3 Jotun Grunt
1 EE

Also I ran Stifle in my maindeck x2 instead of EE of Needle. Worked out not too badly but thinking back I wish I had Needles instead, they would have saved me. Lets just say I wound up Stifling the lifegain on an Exalted since it was one of those 5 turn time extensions lol.
About Enforcer, I found that he was fairly important in winning against this meta, but I still would never run more than one. I saw him every game with all my cantrips (I ran 16), and I wouldnt want to see him in my opening hand, ever.

Elf_Ascetic
09-30-2006, 04:40 PM
Well, don't know if it helps you, but here's my current board. You prob. should know I'm preparing for a tourney with tons of thresh, and almost no Geddon-wishable decks.

3 Hydroblast
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Tivadar's Crusade
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Engineered Explosives (0 mb, 2 enforcers)
1 Pithing Needle (got only one, too bad :frown: )

Citrus-God
09-30-2006, 10:05 PM
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Tivadar's Crusade
3 Nantuko Monastery
3 Stifle
3 Naturalize


Yup... no Mage... at all. I didnt think I need it, since I'm in such a Goblin and UGr Thresh heavy meta. Monasteries are fucking amazing. Control died in my meta and I figured there are better cards for the sb.

Solpugid
09-30-2006, 11:30 PM
Nantuko monastery has been a house for me. When I built this deck I went straight to maindecking 2 monasteries and they are amazing. Fitting them in required fewer basic lands (which is ok, because I rarely see wasteland) and an upping of land count from 17 to 18. There are downsides, for sure, but I'd be interested to hear if anyone else has tried maindeck monasteries. Worst comes to worst I shuffle them away with fetches after a brainstorm/serum visions/portent, or use them to cast enforcers or hard-cast force of will. At best, they own face without possibility of counters or WoG.

For the sideboard discussion: I use tormod's crypt insead of grunt. Crypt is weaker in the mirror, but better against random graveyard-based decks like survival, reanimator, loam-engines, and tog (where quick graveyard removal is more important than a 4/4 creaure).

Citrus-God
10-02-2006, 05:04 AM
The Monasteries are very good again a ton of decks.

The mirror, Angel Stompy, and much more I cant seem to remember...

Negator
10-03-2006, 09:43 AM
Yup... no Mage... at all.

If you don't play maindeck Mage, what kind of spells do you play in those slots?
How about replacing the Mages with Serendib Efreet? I ran a small tournament this weekend, and got 2nd loosing only to affinity. The only match where I used the mages was against Iggy. I usually shuffled the mages back in the deck during the other matches and was not really impressed by them. What do you think?

Citrus-God
10-03-2006, 10:32 PM
Mage isnt doing so hot in this metagame. It's only good against 3 decks, and those decks happen to be Board Control (call Swords and counter all WoG effects), IGGy, and Solidarity.

As for what I replaced Mage with... Portent. Dont laugh, I find everything I need from cantrips; Threats, Answers, and more Cantrips.

Usually I see Mage as a metagame slot. If you tell me what kind of meta you have, there so much more better cards for this slot. Jotun Grunt, Galina's Knight, Serendib Efreet, Stifle, EE, and a bunch more.

IMO, think the reason for the White splash is the Sideboard. Swords is strong removal, but the more important sides of White has always been the Sideboard and at times, Mage.

Negator
10-04-2006, 04:48 AM
My meta only has a few combo decks where Mage really shines. So I want to find something that fits in the Mage slot without lowering my creature count. I will test Efreet, and maybe Galina's Knight or Monastery. Don't you ever think that your creature count is too low without the Mages? Or do the extra cantrips get you your critters?

Clark Kant
10-04-2006, 04:58 PM
Mage is a walking Counterspell.

If you're going to replace a walking counterspell, why not do it with a Flying Mana Leak. That way you don't hurt your combo matchup up too much.

I'm of course talking about Spiketail Broodling. It makes all your opponents key spells cost two more mana, all while beating for two. What do you guys think?

Citrus-God
10-04-2006, 05:14 PM
Mage is a walking Counterspell.

If you're going to replace a walking counterspell, why not do it with a Flying Mana Leak. That way you don't hurt your combo matchup up too much.

I'm of course talking about Spiketail Broodling. It makes all your opponents key spells cost two more mana, all while beating for two. What do you guys think?

This deck doesnt need more counters. Just topdecking a counterspell against a couple of guys on the board doesnt answer them. If you were to replace Mage, make sure it benefits every angle of your deck, and that's card qualitywise. Theres, that's something Spiketail Broodling cant do, improve your card quality.

@Negator: The thing about more cantrips is that, it allows you to decide what's good in the current situation. Creatures are bad sometimes, Removal is bad sometimes, and Counters are bad sometimes. It's a matter off what you need that makes cantrips shine. I never really felt creature lite. But if you must, add a 3rd Enforcer, or manybe throw in some Monasteries, as they double as lands as well.

Geeba
10-04-2006, 05:21 PM
Mage is a walking Counterspell.

If you're going to replace a walking counterspell, why not do it with a Flying Mana Leak. That way you don't hurt your combo matchup up too much.

I'm of course talking about Spiketail Broodling. It makes all your opponents key spells cost two more mana, all while beating for two. What do you guys think?

I'd say if you want to replace a card that is an sich OK, but just not strong enough in this metagame, don't replace it with a similar (but weaker) card. In my opinion, the argument against m.mage is just as valid against the inclusion of Spiketail Drakeling. Besides that, drake can be played around and leaves play after it's effect, in contrast to the mage.

edit:@ Anti: I'm a slow poster, but at least we agree:wink:

Solpugid
10-05-2006, 08:32 AM
I've never really had problems with drawing mage, since at the least they are a slightly more annoying grizzly bears (and a creature that's not affected by lack of threshold).

But I was actually wondering how azorius guildmage would work in this deck. It's even easier on the mana than mage, counters activated abilities (which pithing needle is for, I know) and taps creatures at end of turn (if you don't need that mana to counter something) to allow your creatures to attack freely into a crowded board.

The more I mill over it, the less I like it, but it's something to think about.

Citrus-God
10-05-2006, 09:51 AM
Personally, I dont think Guildmage would be bad at all. Being able to counter Gempalm Incenerators and/or Creatures with Equipment. I think could be something I could side in against Angel Stompy and Faerie Stompy variants.

Elf_Ascetic
10-05-2006, 11:11 AM
Azorius Guildmage is only great if you can spare the mana. And most of the time, I can't. Anyway, Meddling Mage just rocks in my meta..

Geeba
10-05-2006, 04:32 PM
Personally, I dont think Guildmage would be bad at all. Being able to counter Gempalm Incenerators and/or Creatures with Equipment. I think could be something I could side in against Angel Stompy and Faerie Stompy variants.

Gempalm Incinerator has a triggered and an activated ability, so yes you can counter the cycling, but damage-clausule will trigger nonetheless. You can counter equipment activations as well, however, creatures can be re-equipped. Using 3 mana in a land-light deck to counter a 2 mana recurring ability isn't that hot. You still can tap the creature, if it's not equipped with SoFI.

Tapping fatties is nice, but taking care of one creature for a recurring cost of 3...sounds sub-par, you'll be better of playing some flexible removal.

Which brings me to the following point: I saw that some people put up reprisal as additional removal, but I can imagine most people are wary putting potentially dead cards in their deck. So what about radiant's judgement?

noobslayer
10-05-2006, 07:25 PM
Enough. We get it.

On another note. Who else is favoring the Dryad over Werebear plan? Seems better in the face of graveyard hate.

Negator
10-06-2006, 03:04 AM
Enough. We get it.

On another note. Who else is favoring the Dryad over Werebear plan? Seems better in the face of graveyard hate.

I don't like the fact that Dryad comes into play as a 1/1. I usually play the Bear when I already achieved threshold to keep it from being burned to a crisp. Dryad seems to fragile to me against decks packing burn spells, I'm gonna stick to the Bear.

Benie Bederios
10-06-2006, 03:42 AM
I don't like the fact that Dryad comes into play as a 1/1. I usually play the Bear when I already achieved threshold to keep it from being burned to a crisp. Dryad seems to fragile to me against decks packing burn spells, I'm gonna stick to the Bear.

Well if you wait until turn 4 or 5( when you would get threshold) to play the Bear, you probably have enough mana to play Dryad and protect with counters or play cantrips in response to the burnspell. I don't think it's a valid argument, or atleast one who counts far more then being less dependent on graveyard hate.

I would play the Bear, because it gives mana and it allows you to play cantrips before you play it. I'm testing Gro-A-Tog and although Dryad is very powerfull on turn 2, it's rather weak later on. I think that also was the initial reason to play Thresholdcreatures over Dryad anyway.

Geeba
10-06-2006, 04:33 AM
Well if you wait until turn 4 or 5( when you would get threshold) to play the Bear, you probably have enough mana to play Dryad and protect with counters or play cantrips in response to the burnspell. I don't think it's a valid argument, or atleast one who counts far more then being less dependent on graveyard hate.

I would play the Bear, because it gives mana and it allows you to play cantrips before you play it. I'm testing Gro-A-Tog and although Dryad is very powerfull on turn 2, it's rather weak later on. I think that also was the initial reason to play Thresholdcreatures over Dryad anyway.

I think you contradict yourself here. In the first argument you suggest to just keep the dryad in hand 'til turn 4-5 because it's easy to protect that way, in the second argument you say it's a rather weak play later in the game.

Ninj4
10-06-2006, 10:44 AM
the first part isn't advocating the use of the dryad, he was just explaning on when it was safe to use him. going off that, he tells us that he would rather play the bear because of that fact.

Angel of Despair
10-06-2006, 11:27 AM
You guys are going to ruin this deck. You can't improve on perfection. I have found that in my own testing, The only thing better than changing your favorite deck, is putting it back the way it was. You really want to take out Meddling Mage and Werebear? It's called Threshold because of the thresh creatures, and it's white mostly FOR Mage...
So, what I guess I am saying, is if you want to change it so much, maybe you should just play a different deck. I run a list very similar to Bardo's, and IT WINS! I know that a lot of people want to personalize the deck, but when you are taking out huge peices.. it almost makes it a different deck.
~Just Advocating for those who can't speak for themselves.
AoD

SillyMetalGAT
10-06-2006, 08:18 PM
~Just Advocating for those who can't speak for themselves.
AoD

There are people that are computer illiterate?

But seriously, shes right. Werebear is such a house and Mage is the reason you play White over Red. Seriously guys, why would you even take Mage out of the deck? You know how crucial he is, dont be a n00b. If anything, he baits out your opponents removal, making Werebear better. Stick with the creatures, they're pretty badass.

EDIT: Its funny. You can tell the mods dont read this thread. Solipugid posted the same thing 5 times.....

I managed to drop by and notice that too. Quintuple post ftl. -Di

Bardo
10-06-2006, 08:47 PM
Wow, quite a bit of material to cover here.

Let's just start with Meddling Mage. Far more than any other card in the deck, this is the Thresh's most intense skill tester. In all honestly, I would recommend that players that are new to Thresh and/or Legacy, just play something else in the Mage slot (like more Enforcers and cantrips), because playing MM properly requires three distinctly different sets of knowledge: the format, the match-up, the game state.

In Vintage you can just drop Mage on something over-powered (Tinker, Will) and he can get the job done before you start getting fancy (naming "Thirst" against Control Slaver, for instance). But with the relatively lower power level of Legacy, naming the right card is much harder in this format. Nonetheless, the range of MM's goodness is enormous, from being a terribly cost Grizzly Bear to a game-winner. Generally though, the greatest value of MM is that you can conserve your resources (counters and removal) for secondary threats.

Re: Azorius Guildmage. Um, really? If you're playing this guy you're just playing another deck. But he illustrates a good point of why Meddling Mage is so good. All of the Guildmages' abilities cost a load of mana; where MM requires no maintenance once he's in play (i.e. more resource conservation).

Sure, technically you can stop counter a Wasteland or Incinerator, but against a good player, this isn't likely to happen; cost/effect-wise, the cheapest cost usually wins. (Incidentally, I'm pretty sure you can counter the cycling of Gempalm Incinerator with Stifle/Guildmage, but you can only choose one effect; i.e. the damage or drawing a card.)

Re: Dryad over Werebear. In most cases, Werebear is a 4/4 for 1G. It's a solid draw at all points in the game, unlike Dryad, which is often a crap topdeck. If Dryad had some kind of evasion (flying, trample), then she'd be a fine pick, but the difference between a 4/4 for 1G and a non-evasive 7/7 for 1G that required you to cast six other non-green spells (4-8 mana over several turns) is a minor distinction.

And while Dryad makes you a little more resilient to graveyard hate, is it really that big of a deal? I mean, the last time I took Thresh to a tournament I had three straight rounds of opponents playing 3-4 Crypts in their sideboard each, followed by a round against an opponent with 4 maindeck Leylines of the Void. And you know what? I won all of those matches. Dealing with hate just means you have to play tighter. It's not like Goblins became unplayable because some people start running Engineered Plague in their board.


You guys are going to ruin this deck. You can't improve on perfection. I have found that in my own testing, The only thing better than changing your favorite deck, is putting it back the way it was. You really want to take out Meddling Mage and Werebear? It's called Threshold because of the thresh creatures,

I think the deck will always need to adapt and keep updating itself, but if someone is going to make changes, it's best to get familiar with the proven builds before you go tinkering around.

Edit - Just to be clear, AoD, I was agreeing with you. Though I can see that it didn't necessarily come across that way. :)

Angel of Despair
10-06-2006, 08:55 PM
I meant that I was speaking for Werebear and Mage. On Nantuko Monastery, How do you get away with 2 maindeck, I tested with it maindeck, and I took it out completely, because of Wasteland/Swords. Also, it was horrible for mana, I could never even use it, so I had one in the sideboard for a little bit, but decided that Grunt is just better. There are actually plenty of better choices...at least for my build.
~AoD

Solpugid
10-07-2006, 01:15 AM
First of all, I want to apologize for the multiple posts a few days ago. My computer's internet connection suddenly failed as I was posting and refused to submit my comments. Every time I tried to resubmit the post, the action appeared to have failed...I guess it didn't. Again, sorry for that.

I think I'm starting to realize how potentially bad 2 maindeck monasteries are. Later in the game they are amazing cards to have, but having them as your only land in your opening hand forces an otherwise avoidable mulligan. I think I'll drop a monastery for another tundra (wasteland is nowhere to be found in my area, by the way).

I used to play this deck a while back with dryads in it. I ended up giving up on the deck because I didn't think it was good enough. Later on I revisited it, and replaced dryads with mongooses and the deck runs much more smoothly, so I personally would not be an advocate of dryad in thresh. And even if you wanted to play it, I would suggest it over mage (which I think should at least be in the board) and not over threshold creatures. This would take you in a very aggro direction, but it might work.

Citrus-God
10-07-2006, 02:13 AM
You guys are going to ruin this deck. You can't improve on perfection. I have found that in my own testing, The only thing better than changing your favorite deck, is putting it back the way it was. You really want to take out Meddling Mage and Werebear? It's called Threshold because of the thresh creatures, and it's white mostly FOR Mage...
So, what I guess I am saying, is if you want to change it so much, maybe you should just play a different deck. I run a list very similar to Bardo's, and IT WINS! I know that a lot of people want to personalize the deck, but when you are taking out huge peices.. it almost makes it a different deck.
~Just Advocating for those who can't speak for themselves.
AoD


... I turely disagree with the fact that Meddling Mage is the reason why White is splashed in Thresh. Honestly, it's for Removal, Sideboard, and Metagaming, since white is more flexible than most colors.

As for the Monastery debate.

What's your mana base people? Only two slots maximum in your mana base is allowed for off-colored Lands. Bardo's has two, and so does Ben Goodman. Alix and Jesse Hatfield have 1. And I run my mana base differently than most people, as I adapted this from the Hatfield mana base.


// Lands 17
4 Windswept Heath
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest

My Needles can call Flooded Strand, yay!

Yes, how hypocrtical of me. I dont run Monasteries Maindecked. In fact, I side out the lone Forest and spells to avoid making mulligans. People, you build your mana base around the deck. You need at least 16 blue sources.

As for my build, it's rather close to Mr. Nightmare's build. I dislike Mental Note, but it seems to be the best I've got for metagaming in my area at the moment, and I guess it isnt so bad, since my Cantrips make Mental Note not suck.

Angel of Despair
10-07-2006, 11:10 AM
My Manabase is as follows:

4 Tundra
3Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
2 Islands
1 Forest
1 Plains (wicked heavy wasteland and other LD in my meta)

I can name Polluted Delta too! Let's just hope everyone isn't running a similar mana base:wink:

Bane of the Living
10-07-2006, 11:39 AM
I meant that I was speaking for Werebear and Mage. On Nantuko Monastery, How do you get away with 2 maindeck, I tested with it maindeck, and I took it out completely, because of Wasteland/Swords. Also, it was horrible for mana, I could never even use it, so I had one in the sideboard for a little bit, but decided that Grunt is just better. There are actually plenty of better choices...at least for my build.
~AoD

Actually you only had one in your maindeck but each time you drew it it still lost you games. Colorless mana for the lose. This card is not worth a spot in an already stretched 3c manabase, imo. I could maybe see it played in a build were monastary isnt counted in the manabase as land.. Maybe an 18-19 land build. It also seems costly to me to have since the activation isnt always cheap, and interfers with countermagic.

It doesnt seem to help the thresh reliant problem either. It is a thresh creature, it also sucks against crypt.

Angel of Despair
10-07-2006, 11:44 AM
Actually you only had one in your maindeck but each time you drew it it still lost you games. Colorless mana for the lose. This card is not worth a spot in an already stretched 3c manabase, imo. I could maybe see it played in a build were monastary isnt counted in the manabase as land.. Maybe an 18-19 land build. It also seems costly to me to have since the activation isnt always cheap, and interfers with countermagic.

It doesnt seem to help the thresh reliant problem either. It is a thresh creature, it also sucks against crypt.

I didn't say I played MORE than one. I simply said that it sucked for me. I hated drawing colorless, and I hate putting all that time, threshold, and mana into a 4/4, when I already had 4 in my deck.(Werebear)

Citrus-God
10-08-2006, 04:51 AM
Wow... I didnt actually believe people would have problems with Monastery, that, or I drew more lands than most people because I run a higher cantrip count.

Mad Zur
10-10-2006, 03:39 PM
This is the Gro deck I played to a top two split at the Duel for Duals on October 7th, and with one minor sideboard difference, my (as well as Obfuscate Freely's) current decklist.

4x Brainstorm
4x Serum Visions
4x Portent
4x Predict

4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Werebear
2x Mystic Enforcer

4x Force of Will
3x Counterspell
3x Daze

4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Pithing Needle

4x Tundra
3x Tropical Island
3x Island
3x Windswept Heath
2x Flooded Strand
1x Polluted Delta
1x Forest

Sideboard:
3x Naturalize
3x Blue Elemental Blast
3x Stifle
3x Jotun Grunt
3x Loaming Shaman

The maindeck is the same standard we've been running for quite a while, some noticable features being a healthy 16 library manipulation/draw spells and no Meddling Mage. I'll get to both in a moment but first I'd like to talk about the sideboard.

It was meant to have a single Mystic Enforcer rather than the third Loaming Shaman, but I couldn't find it until after I had to hand in my decklist. Whether that's even correct is debatable, but it didn't end up mattering. Those last 5-6 slots are experimental; we haven't gotten a chance to test this configuration in the mirror yet (and neither of us played it in two days), but ideally they should allow you to attack your opponent's graveyard while making you less reliant on your own. Nantuko Monastery is a great card (obviously you should never cut any blue lands for it, though), but it is another threshold creature, and Grunts are becoming quite popular (likely a good deal more so than they deserve) along with the graveyard hate we already have to deal with. Granted, Enforcer is another threshold creature, but there are a number of other matchups where you want to be able to go up to three after game one (RGSA, Angel Stompy, essentially any slow creature deck). Grunt vs. Shaman is an interesting decision, and as I've said we haven't tested it yet so we don't know what the best configuration would be, but they both have strengths and weaknesses. Loaming Shaman, of course, has an immediate impact, and doesn't require anything special to keep around. Grunt, on the other hand, matches up better against threshed or re-threshed creatures (trades with Bear, kills Goose) as well as opposing copies of itself. I hope to get some testing done in the mirror soon so we can see how well this plan compares to the many other options, but I can't say for sure yet.

One thing I do believe, however, is that Tivadar's Crusade is not necessary. I boarded as follows against Goblins on Saturday:

-2 Mystic Enforcer
-1 Counterspell
-1 Predict
-1 Portent
-1 Serum Visions

+3 Blue Elemental Blast
+3 Stifle

Enforcer is the first card to get boarded out in this matchup because it's generally too slow to risk having in your hand early and rarely necessary later in the game. Draw and counters need to go to make room for anything more, which is unfortunate, but acceptable in small numbers. My exact configuration might not be correct, but I'd recommend something similar. Blast is able to replace and complement the counters, and Stifle is able to answer Matron, Ringleader, Gempalm, and Siege-Gang Commander but also safeguards against Tormod's Crypt. Both are far more versatile than Crusade and less of a strain on the manabase, and yet both are very strong in the matchup. This maindeck is already consistent enough (running a healthy amount of draw spells and few suboptimal cards against Goblins) that these six cards are enough to make the matchup at least even, and probably favorable. A lot of people seem to think that this matchup is unfavorable or even unwinnable, but it just isn't the case.

Perhaps even more prevalent is the mistaken idea that the deck isn't heavily favored against combo without Meddling Mage. The following was my board plan against Solidarity:

-4 Swords to Plowshares
-3 Pithing Needle
-2 Mystic Enforcer
-1 Forest

+3 Stifle
+3 Blue Elemental Blast
+2 Jotun Grunt
+2 Loaming Shaman

Swords is obviously dead here and Pithing Needle next to useless. Enforcer may be worse than both because on the off chance you accidentally cast it, you may very well lose on the spot. I think it's safe to take Forest out here (and a few other matchups with no land destruction or nonbasic hate) because the land count that really matters is how many blue sources you have. Forest rarely makes any opening hands better, isn't affected by High Tide, and is generally shuffled away or put on the bottom if at all possible. I can't remember the last time I lost to combo because of manascrew, but almost all of the ones I can remember involve manaflood.

Stifle, while not as good as Mage in this particular matchup, is quite relevant and much less narrow. A good portion of the games Gro loses to Solidarity are the result of multiple Brain Freezes after a counter war, which Stifle obviously stops. It can also hit fetchlands for a serious tempo boost, though they can play around it if they know you have it. What Stifle does is give you more freedom in deciding what to counter. Often it's easier to counter their draw than anything else, but if you let them have all the mana they want, they might be able to storm up high enough to kill you with Brain Freeze even if none of their draw spells resolve. If you've got a Stifle in your hand, you don't have to worry about that and can focus on whichever resource you think they're weak in. Blue Elemental Blast is just a blue card. Yes, blue cards are better than extra creatures in this matchup. Grunt and Shaman are the worst of the bunch but they each have their uses. They have a similar effect to Stifle; if Grunt is in play or Loaming Shaman in your hand, a Brain Freeze isn't lethal without a draw spell. However, they have serious drawbacks - Grunt can't stay out long and can be bounced, but Shaman is inefficient and you may not be able to play him after a counter war.

People are often surprised when I tell them I don't even board Mage, but the card is too narrow in the current Legacy metagame to be worth it. It's only really good in your best matchups. This deck, properly built, shouldn't have trouble with combo with or without Mage. Solidarity loses to counters and a decent clock, and if you can't pull that together consistently, chances are there's a deeper problem. If your build is too inconsistent to run smoothly against combo, you can use Mage to patch up that one matchup, but that inconsistency is still going to cost you games everywhere else. Better to fix the underlying problem and improve all your matchups. If you don't have enough experience to beat combo without Mage, you won't be guaranteed to beat it with Mage either. Better to test against it and improve the matchup without spending card slots. If you've had an unlucky streak, you can run Mage to make you more comfortable, but you're wasting space and weakening your deck overall. Better to accept the losses as exceptions and plan to win in the future.

Aside from the five or six sideboard slots for the mirror, I don't have any major complaints about the deck right now. I still believe 16 draw spells to be necessary. The draw has always been what makes this deck work; it lets us run a low land count, balance our counters, threats, and removal, and lets us find threats reliably without forcing us to run more than a few, making sure that the ones we do play are the best possible. I believe this deck (regardless of build or player) still loses more games because of not drawing enough cards than any other reason. I think trying to cut corners on draw, either by running too few or by running cards like Mental Note that don't actually manipulate your draw, is a serious mistake. If anything, I'd add draw (and I'm always looking out for ways to do that).

There's been some negative hype recently, but I still believe Gro to be the best deck in the format, and I'm posting this to hopefully start some discussion about it. There's no shortage of issues to be talked about given the variation between lists, and I hope we can be civil and productive. I'd love to hear any ideas about how to improve the deck or your reasoning for disagreeing with me on any of these points.

Citrus-God
10-10-2006, 06:57 PM
To tell the truth... I'm literally am in love with your build.

Also, why did you cut the lone Forest? I love having 17 lands around. Why do you have 2 Flooded Strands and 1 Polluted Delta? How often do you name fetchlands with them? If so, do you name Polluted Delta or Flooded Strand?

As for your 6 slots, I think Loaming Shaman should be cut for something else. Maybe more general utility. Grunt looks good.

So may I have more information to why Nantuko Monastery had to get cut. It was so good in my metagame. It helps me with all my bad match ups, like EBA. Even if Grunt is around, more removal can easily be sided in to take care of him. Monastery was also my MVP for awhile.

What do you side in versus mirror?

What's Obfuscate Freely's current build at the moment?

I think you guys should write a primer on this particular build. Bardo has one view of the deck, I think we need another.

Solpugid
10-10-2006, 06:57 PM
Mad Zur, I'm a little confused. You mentioned boarding out a basic forest, and yet I don't see that forest in your decklist. Also, I counted 16 lands in your build. 16?? I wonder how that works for you, even with all those cantrips.

Turns out my list is very similar to yours in other respects, except I replace pithing needle maindeck (I have it in the side) for meddling mage (2 of them). You seem to bash the power level of that card a lot, at least in the current metagame, but I think that's undeserved. Mage is certainly not ideal in many match-ups, like goblins, but never terrible. Mage makes your solidarity match-ups better too, so you don't need to worry about siding in such sub-par stuff as loaming shaman.

You also run 4 tundras compared to 3 trops in your manbase. But you actually have far more green spells than white spells. Why these numbers then? If you're counting on werebear to live to keep you with green mana, you should think again.

quicksilver
10-10-2006, 07:05 PM
His list is 59 cards, he obviously forgot to put the forest in that list, he should edit it if he sees this. Also it would be great if bardo could update his origional post with a link to this list.

Citrus-God
10-10-2006, 07:06 PM
You also run 4 tundras compared to 3 trops in your manbase. But you actually have far more green spells than white spells. Why these numbers then? If you're counting on werebear to live to keep you with green mana, you should think again.

I can explain that. Basic Plains arent needed, so it was replaced with Tundra rather quickly. Also, since this deck only runs 3 Windswet Heaths, it was better off fetching a Basic Forest rather than a Plains.

As for Green Mana, it has the basic Forest. I think it may have been a typo, since he runs 17 Lands, with 3 being green fetches.

Mad Zur
10-10-2006, 08:15 PM
Why do you have 2 Flooded Strands and 1 Polluted Delta? How often do you name fetchlands with them? If so, do you name Polluted Delta or Flooded Strand?
That just happened to be the configuration that was easily available. I rarely name fetches with Needle so it's mostly irrelevant. There's no clear best setup; running all Strands lets you name Delta (against Iggy Pop, the black mirror, black decks), and running all Deltas lets you name Strand (white mirror, certain Solidarity players), but both make you more vulnerable to is opposing Needles (Strand particularly so because some people would expect you to be playing Plains). A combination lessens the chance of getting hurt by opposing Needles but can get in the way if you want to play one naming either. As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't really matter.

So may I have more information to why Nantuko Monastery had to get cut. It was so good in my metagame. It helps me with all my bad match ups, like EBA. Even if Grunt is around, more removal can easily be sided in to take care of him. Monastery was also my MVP for awhile. Like I said, the mirror plan is untested. Monestary might still be optimal, but we were worried about it because of graveyard hate from the mirror (the other matchups where Monestary is awesome seem to have disappeared). In essence, we didn't want our sideboard to lose to the opponent's sideboard. If it's working well for you, though, go ahead and run Monestary. It's a good option and we might go back to it in the future. I don't like the idea of boarding in more removal because all the options are situational. I'd much rather board in extra threats and plan to trade them off than removal that might sit in my hand against a Mongoose.

What do you side in versus mirror? I haven't played against it with this board yet, but the plan is:

-3 Pithing Needle
-1 Counterspell
-1 Forest
-1 Portent (Could be something else, like another Counterspell or a Daze)

+3 Jotun Grunt
+2 Loaming Shaman
+1 Mystic Enforcer (Would have been another Loaming Shaman)


Turns out my list is very similar to yours in other respects, except I replace pithing needle maindeck (I have it in the side) for meddling mage (2 of them). You seem to bash the power level of that card a lot, at least in the current metagame, but I think that's undeserved. Mage is certainly not ideal in many match-ups, like goblins, but never terrible.
I think you are confusing 'terrible' with 'dead'. Mage is never dead because it's a 2/2 for two. Mage is, however, sometimes terrible because a 2/2 for two is just that. I wouldn't run Mage over Needle for two main reasons: Decks hurt by Needle are far more common than decks hurt by Mage, and decks hurt by Mage are already your best matchups while decks hurt by Needle are close or unfavorable.
Mage makes your solidarity match-ups better too, so you don't need to worry about siding in such sub-par stuff as loaming shaman.Loaming Shaman isn't for Solidarity.
You also run 4 tundras compared to 3 trops in your manbase. But you actually have far more green spells than white spells. Why these numbers then? If you're counting on werebear to live to keep you with green mana, you should think again.The Forest is the fourth permanent green source. This is actually the same manabase we ran with Crusade; I could see cutting a Tundra at this point for another fetchland or Island but this configuration has been working well.

AnwarA101
10-10-2006, 08:35 PM
You seem to bash the power level of that card a lot, at least in the current metagame, but I think that's undeserved. Mage is certainly not ideal in many match-ups, like goblins, but never terrible. Mage makes your solidarity match-ups better too, so you don't need to worry about siding in such sub-par stuff as loaming shaman.


The power of Meddling Mage is low in Legacy. Against every creature-based deck he's nothing more than a 2/2 bear. Against combo his power is undeniable, but if you can't reliably beat combo with Threshold than you are doing something wrong.

You can't afford to clog your deck with 2/2 bears against other creature decks like Goblins, Faerie Stompy, Red Death, Angel Stompy, and others. Meddling Mage in these matchups is basically a minor inconvenience for the opposing decks because he definitely isn't a threat.

Solpugid
10-11-2006, 12:23 AM
Actually, mage is a threat, he's just not always a good one. Nit-picking aside, I can certainly see the argument against mage and for needle main, but I've actually had decent success with mage against random decks. Even against goblins he names warchief or ringleader and eats an incinerator that would overwise kill a bear. That's certainly not terrible.

And thanks for clearing up the forest issue.

AnwarA101
10-11-2006, 12:36 AM
Actually, mage is a threat, he's just not always a good one. Nit-picking aside, I can certainly see the argument against mage and for needle main, but I've actually had decent success with mage against random decks. Even against goblins he names warchief or ringleader and eats an incinerator that would overwise kill a bear. That's certainly not terrible.

And thanks for clearing up the forest issue.

I'm not sure you can call Mage a threat at all. The fact that Goblins might use an Incinerator on him is hardly enough of a reason to say that he's not always a good threat. He's actually very bad. Let's examine a few decks -

Goblins - Mage dies to basically everything and basically can't do anything about Incinerator.

Gro - Other Gro decks not running Mage are at an advantage because they might be running a real threat like Mystic Enforcer.

Red Death - Looks like every creature in this deck beats Mage every day of the week.

Faerie Stompy - Sea Drake, Serendib Efreet, hell even Trinket Mage trades with Meddling Mage (I would also offer that Trinket Mage is only a threat in this deck because he can be equipped)

Angel Stompy - Mage can't even beat Silver Knight in a fair fight. Or any other creature in this deck for that matter.

Shall I go on? I think its important to realize that when people think White Thresh loses to aggro its probably largely related to the fact that people are playing Meddling Mage in the main. You are welcome to play him if you think he's good, but just make sure you don't think of him as a threat against other decks playing creatures because he isn't.

URABAHN
10-11-2006, 08:55 AM
Actually, mage is a threat, he's just not always a good one. Nit-picking aside, I can certainly see the argument against mage and for needle main, but I've actually had decent success with mage against random decks. Even against goblins he names warchief or ringleader and eats an incinerator that would overwise kill a bear. That's certainly not terrible.

And thanks for clearing up the forest issue.

How in the hell would naming Warchief or Ringleader stop Goblins? You do realize they have AEther Vial and you can still Vial in those guys, right? Cycling Gempalm Incinerator can not only kill Meddling Mage, but also draws the Goblin player a card. Most of the time, I think Goblins would just run over your Meddling Mage, not even bothering to activate Gempalm to get rid of it. Goblins laughs in the face of Meddling Mage. Your 2/2 guy is as good as a Grizzly Bear and Grizzly Bear is awful.

AnwarA101's Are You Playing a Threat? (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/11600.html)

Elf_Ascetic
10-11-2006, 10:34 AM
Can't you all just agree with the fact that Meddling Mage is a metagame choice?

Meddling Mage sucks in some (agro) meta's, but in combo/mixed meta's he's just nuts.

Geeba
10-11-2006, 10:56 AM
Can't you all just agree with the fact that Meddling Mage is a metagame choice?

Meddling Mage sucks in some (agro) meta's, but in combo/mixed meta's he's just nuts.

I agree completely. I don't think the mage-discussion is very helpful for the development of the deck, I guess we all know by now against which decks it's useful and against which decks not. People shouldn't evaluate their deck in a vacuüm, but take their meta and their own playskills into account. I think it's impossible to reach a consensus here, unless you're playing in a similar meta.

Maybe it's just better to separate threads even more, like Ugw Threshold for the aggro-defined meta, for the combo-defined meta, for the scrubby player or the drunk, for example.

Hanni
10-11-2006, 11:30 AM
Meddling Mage is a threat, just not the strongest one. The thing that you are forgetting, Anwar, is that Mage prevents people from playing spells. Against Red Death, that means no more Bolts or Hymns. Against Angel Stompy, that means no more SoFI or Jittes. This makes him a threat to the opponent's strategy, even if he's not the greatest attacker. If you back him early on with StP's, he can swing some damage through before your Werebears and Mongooses start attacking. Simply saying that Meddling Mage cannot be a threat because removal will kill him doesn't really seem relevant to me since Lightning Bolt will kill Rotting Giant and Incinerator will kill Sea Drakes... does that make those creatures less relevant?

I agree with you though, when you say he's not the greatest piece of aggro against opposing aggro strategies. However, this may be true in UGw Threshold, but not everywhere. My next statement doesn't apply to Threshold, but rather to my deck. Meddling Mage becomes a threat when he's complimented/supported by other creatures/spells. I already referenced how he can be a threat when coupled with StP. However, my deck also utilizes Umezawa's Jitte and Mother of Runes to make him more of a threat. Of course, on his own, Meddling Mage isn't much of an aggro threat (aside from keeping the opponent from playing a specific spell), but Meddling Mage can be a threat when supported correctly.

As far as Meddling Mage goes in UGw Threshold, I think it's still relevant. It names important spells that cannot be played. The argument to this was AEther Vial prevents Mage from being effective against Goblins. However, the same argument can be made about Pithing Needle making AEther Vial ineffective. It still doesn't change the fact that Meddling Mage prevents the opponent from playing a spell. That whole concept, in itself, makes Meddling Mage a valuable asset to the deck, even if it's unable to go on the assault. If anything, Meddling Mage can be boarded out against certain decks. I still feel as though Meddling Mage does alot for the deck.

Nightmare
10-11-2006, 12:03 PM
Meddling Mage prevents the opponent from playing a spell. That whole concept, in itself, makes Meddling Mage a valuable asset to the deck, even if it's unable to go on the assault. If anything, Meddling Mage can be boarded out against certain decks. I still feel as though Meddling Mage does alot for the deck.Threshold, Gro, Birdshit, whatever you call it, is - and always has been - an aggro/control deck. As such, it relies on a tempo-based strategy, rather than a dominating control or agressive strategy, to sieze the small victories and make way for its undercosted guys to swing through. Each time you disrupt your opponent just a little, be it a Daze on their creature, StPing their mana critter, Laying a Needle on their fetchland, or whatever, you advance your strategy just a little bit. Meddling Mage is a Time Walk on a 2/2 body, and even vs. aggro, that's worth running in a tempo deck. Game 1 vs. Goblins with Mage in the MD is a picture perfect example of this. Turn 1 I play Mongoose, or I cantrip, or whatever. If I play Mage turn 2 and name Warchief, the Goblin player can no longer come out of the gates like a bat out of hell, and smash me before I can stablize. Lets say he uses Incinerator on my Mage. Does the incinerator replace itself? Yes. Does it matter? Not really. Mage has done his job. He has been a speed bump for the Goblin player, possibly let you get a swing in with Goose, and maybe even held off his Lackey for a turn. He has also managed to clear a removal spell from the Goblin hand, which would otherwise be directed at your Werebears. To me, game 1, that is enough for an otherwise dead card to do. Consider the alternative. You play Pithing Needle in that slot. It's amazing vs. Goblins. It's great against Survival, and some other decks like Salvagers. It's DEAD against Solidarity. It's DEAD against IGG (there's no Mage to kill, so who cares about Cabal Pit?). It's DEAD in the mirror. You play more cantrips in that slot. They get you to other threats faster. They don't stop Warchief from blowing your head in. They don't stop Solidarity from saying "In response, High Tide." They don't draw fire away from your other, better threats.
Meddling Mage is a metagame card. He is good in the SB. He is no kind of real threat vs. Aggro. He's the first thing to get sided out against Goblins. All these statements are true. None of them take into consideration the actual gameplan of Threshold, nor do they recognize that he isn't there to be a beatstick. People are confused because they see Goose and Bear as bigger threats than comparable decks in the format contain. They get the "Beat down" strategy ingrained in their mind, and think if Mage isn't locking a Solidarity player out of the game, he's useless. This just simply is not true.

Hanni
10-11-2006, 01:20 PM
I agree completely with Mr. Nightmare.

URABAHN
10-11-2006, 01:57 PM
I agree completely with Mr. Nightmare.

So, you're going to keep Mage in the board, right?

Hanni
10-11-2006, 02:59 PM
Mr. Nightmare didn't say he keeps Mage in the board, he said "He is good in the SB" in the context of rephrasing what Anwar said. Mage is good in the board. However, it seemed to me from reading what Mr. Nightmare said, Mage is even better in the maindeck. It seemed like he said that he boards them out against Goblins when he said "He's the first thing to get sided out against Goblins."

Regardless, I don't play UGw Thresh. If I did, I would maindeck 4 Mage. I run a deck that runs 4 maindeck Mage though, and that's where they are staying.

Citrus-God
10-11-2006, 05:00 PM
I agree with Mr. Nightmare. Needle and Mage both have different functions. One for a creature metagame, and another for a combo metagame. Putting them in the maindeck all depends on the metagame.

URABAHN
10-11-2006, 06:44 PM
Mr. Nightmare didn't say he keeps Mage in the board, he said "He is good in the SB" in the context of rephrasing what Anwar said. Mage is good in the board. However, it seemed to me from reading what Mr. Nightmare said, Mage is even better in the maindeck. It seemed like he said that he boards them out against Goblins when he said "He's the first thing to get sided out against Goblins."

Regardless, I don't play UGw Thresh. If I did, I would maindeck 4 Mage. I run a deck that runs 4 maindeck Mage though, and that's where they are staying.

I didn't get that opinion at all from Mr. Nightmare's post. I don't think he's advocating putting in the maindeck, but you might depending on your metagame. What do you think is so awesome about maindeck Mage vs.


Goblins - Mage dies to basically everything and basically can't do anything about Incinerator.

Gro - Other Gro decks not running Mage are at an advantage because they might be running a real threat like Mystic Enforcer.

Red Death - Looks like every creature in this deck beats Mage every day of the week.

Faerie Stompy - Sea Drake, Serendib Efreet, hell even Trinket Mage trades with Meddling Mage (I would also offer that Trinket Mage is only a threat in this deck because he can be equipped)

Angel Stompy - Mage can't even beat Silver Knight in a fair fight. Or any other creature in this deck for that matter.

Did you even read what Anwar said? Maindeck Mage is terrible when you're not expecting a lot of combo. Even if you are expecting combo, then you don't even need Meddling Mage as explained by Mad Zur in his tournament report.

Hanni
10-11-2006, 07:05 PM
Of course I read what Anwar wrote. Did you bother to read what I wrote originally?

Maybe Meddling Mage isn't a threat as far as aggro goes. I understand that a 2cc 2/2 isn't the scariest thing to be attacked with. Meddling Mage isn't just a beatstick and naming a card that the opponent cannot play is not just good against combo.

To quote Mr. Nightmare:


Threshold, Gro, Birdshit, whatever you call it, is - and always has been - an aggro/control deck. As such, it relies on a tempo-based strategy, rather than a dominating control or agressive strategy, to sieze the small victories and make way for its undercosted guys to swing through. Each time you disrupt your opponent just a little, be it a Daze on their creature, StPing their mana critter, Laying a Needle on their fetchland, or whatever, you advance your strategy just a little bit. Meddling Mage is a Time Walk on a 2/2 body, and even vs. aggro, that's worth running in a tempo deck. Game 1 vs. Goblins with Mage in the MD is a picture perfect example of this. Turn 1 I play Mongoose, or I cantrip, or whatever. If I play Mage turn 2 and name Warchief, the Goblin player can no longer come out of the gates like a bat out of hell, and smash me before I can stablize. Lets say he uses Incinerator on my Mage. Does the incinerator replace itself? Yes. Does it matter? Not really. Mage has done his job. He has been a speed bump for the Goblin player, possibly let you get a swing in with Goose, and maybe even held off his Lackey for a turn. He has also managed to clear a removal spell from the Goblin hand, which would otherwise be directed at your Werebears.

You can read Mr. Nightmare's entire post, you can read my entire post, but either way, I don't think I need to repeat what has already been said.

Mad Zur
10-11-2006, 07:47 PM
I'd like to point out for those who say the choice is based on metagame that I'm talking about a typical Legacy metagame, like that you could expect to see at a large Legacy tournament. If I'm ever talking about one specific atypical metagame, I'll say so. If you want to discuss one, please be clear.

Threshold, Gro, Birdshit, whatever you call it, is - and always has been - an aggro/control deck. As such, it relies on a tempo-based strategy, rather than a dominating control or agressive strategy, to sieze the small victories and make way for its undercosted guys to swing through. Each time you disrupt your opponent just a little, be it a Daze on their creature, StPing their mana critter, Laying a Needle on their fetchland, or whatever, you advance your strategy just a little bit.
It is misleading to assert that an aggro-control deck is necessarily based on tempo cards. Tempo is an important part of any deck, but really, an aggro-control deck has to balance tempo with other means of victory to be successful. If you want an archetype that is primarily concerned with tempo, look at a dedicated aggro deck. Tempo is important to Gro, but it's only one aspect of the deck. When you say the deck is tempo-based, you risk doing exactly what you're warning against - viewing the deck as far more aggressive than it is.

Meddling Mage is a Time Walk on a 2/2 body, and even vs. aggro, that's worth running in a tempo deck. Meddling Mage's ability isn't a Time Walk. At best (i.e. they have the card and the Mage stays as long as you'd need it) it's a Duress. But again, Gro isn't solely a tempo deck, and certainly not to the point of running weak cards. It doesn't actually cost the opponent any mana, so it doesn't generate tempo. In the best-case scenario, it generates card advantage.

Game 1 vs. Goblins with Mage in the MD is a picture perfect example of this. Turn 1 I play Mongoose, or I cantrip, or whatever. If I play Mage turn 2 and name Warchief, the Goblin player can no longer come out of the gates like a bat out of hell, and smash me before I can stablize. In terms of tempo, it would be better to actually answer the Warchief because it forces the opponent to actually play the card, thus losing mana.

Lets say he uses Incinerator on my Mage. Does the incinerator replace itself? Yes. Does it matter? Not really. Mage has done his job. He has been a speed bump for the Goblin player, possibly let you get a swing in with Goose,You seem to think getting a swing in with Goose is important and yet you later say

None of them take into consideration the actual gameplan of Threshold, nor do they recognize that he isn't there to be a beatstick. People are confused because they see Goose and Bear as bigger threats than comparable decks in the format contain. They get the "Beat down" strategy ingrained in their mind,
I think if you're suggesting that a single early swing with Mongoose comes close to the value of a card, you have emphasized beatdown (and tempo) far too much.

Consider the alternative. You play Pithing Needle in that slot. It's amazing vs. Goblins. It's great against Survival, and some other decks like Salvagers. Absolutely.

It's DEAD against Solidarity. It's DEAD against IGG (there's no Mage to kill, so who cares about Cabal Pit?). It is okay, from time to time, to play a card that's dead against the bye.

It's DEAD in the mirror. Yes, Needle is slightly worse than Mage in the mirror. I would argue, however, that Mage is still bad enough in the mirror that if you see so much of the mirror that you can't play Needle over Mage because of it, you shouldn't be playing Mage either.

You play more cantrips in that slot. They get you to other threats faster. They don't stop Warchief from blowing your head in. They find you removal.

They don't stop Solidarity from saying "In response, High Tide." They find you counters.

They don't draw fire away from your other, better threats. They find you replacements for those threats.

It seems to me that there are two main mistakes people make when they argue for Meddling Mage:

1. They glorify what is, in essence, a combo hate card. Yes, you can say that it disrupts the opponent by preventing him from playing a spell. You can point out that it can do this against any deck. You can even claim that the fact that it is a 2/2 makes it a good card all by itself. But if I ask you to show me specific matchups where Mage is better than, say, the next best draw spell you're not running, the only answers are combo decks. It draws removal against Goblins. It disrupts Red Death. It's a speedbump against Angel Stompy. And yet you'd board it out in all those matchups before you even knew what you'd bring in. For all it's little advantages, it's still primarily combo hate. You're trying to run maindeck combo hate in a deck with no better matchup than combo. It has never been acceptable to maindeck hate for your best matchup. Deadguy Ale played maindeck Engineered Plague because Goblins was one of its worst matchups otherwise. Rabid Wombat had Gilded Light for a time because it really couldn't beat combo without it (it couldn't really beat it with it anyway, but that's irrelevant). But Train Wreck didn't maindeck Perish for Gro, and we shouldn't maindeck Mage for our best matchup.

2. They believe there is a great difference between a card that is dead and a card that is simply bad. There is not, particularly not in this deck. When you play a turn one Serum Visions and see a dead card, you'll put it on the bottom. When you play that same Serum Visions and see a bad but not completely dead card, you'll put it on the bottom just as quickly. Mage isn't dead in the mirror and Needle is, but it doesn't matter which one you see with a Brainstorm; if you have a fetchland, that card is going away. Seeing a dead card and seeing a bad card both limit your options when playing draw - generally, you'll want to shuffle either back, Predict either to the yard, or scry either to the bottom. In any of these cases, you'll be seeing another card in their place. As long as the card you sent away is worse than the worst card you draw as a result, it does exactly the same damage - forcing you to draw that card. Suppose you're resolving a Brainstorm with a fetchland in play against Solidarity and the three worst cards in your hand are Portent and two cards that are either Werebear and Swords to Plowshares. Assume Portent is better than Werebear in this stage of the game. Now, it doesn't actually matter whether the two cards are the dead Swords or the not dead but still bad Bear. Their effect is exactly the same: you have to take the Portent. In this case a dead card is no worse than a bad one. But this is all unique to Gro; other decks provide countless examples of how a bad card is only better than a dead one in those rare situations in which it affects the game - not many, because, after all, bad cards are called that precisely because they are unlikely to help you.

Mage in Gro reminds my very much of Pyroclasm in Rifter. It was in a lot of lists for a while, but it fell out of favor when people realized it was just maindeck Goblin hate in a deck that already crushed Goblins. It wasn't dead against everything else the same way Mage isn't dead against aggro today. Against Gro, it could kill Mages, kill unthreshed creatures, and double up or pair with a Slice and Dice to kill threshed ones. But it was still quite bad in what proved to be not only a popular matchup but a very close one. Pyroclasm got cut for things that were a little more versatile, like Abeyance (you can call Abeyance a hate card too, but at least it was there for your tough matchups, not your easy ones). The deck still crushed Goblins, if slightly less so, but it had improved matchups all around. We have the same scenario here; you can keep running Mage, crush combo, and have a difficult time against Goblins, or you can cut it, beat both, and realize why a good Gro list really is the best deck in the format.

URABAHN
10-11-2006, 11:16 PM
Of course I read what Anwar wrote. Did you bother to read what I wrote originally?

Maybe Meddling Mage isn't a threat as far as aggro goes. I understand that a 2cc 2/2 isn't the scariest thing to be attacked with. Meddling Mage isn't just a beatstick and naming a card that the opponent cannot play is not just good against combo.

To quote Mr. Nightmare:



You can read Mr. Nightmare's entire post, you can read my entire post, but either way, I don't think I need to repeat what has already been said.

No, really Hanni, what's so awesome about maindeck Mage vs. Goblins, Red Death, Angel Stompy, Gro, and Faerie Stompy? You get to name a card? Hanni, don't you realize that doesn't matter in these matchups? You name Goblin Warhchief, you still have to deal with Ringleader, Piledriver, Incinerator, Pyromancer, Goblin King, Siege-Gang Commander, and AEther Vial. You want to name Lightning Bolt when you're paired against Red Death? You still have to deal with Phyrexian Negator, Sinkhole, Hymn to Tourach, Duress, Wasteland, Rotting Giant, Nantuko Shade, and Hypnotic Specter.

Hanni, you make the comparison that Meddling Mage, Sea Drake, and Rotting Giant can all be killed by Lightning Bolt. While they may be equal right in that respect, it's unfair to compare them like that. Sea Drake and Rotting Giant are legitmate threats that perform well in combat and deal significant damage to the other player on their own. Grizzly Bear didn't do it when it was printed and Meddling Mage won't do that for you now. If you compare their strengths vs. combo decks then you have a clear favorite in Meddling Mage. Combo decks will need to deal with Meddling Mage in order to combo off. A 2/2 Meddling Mage doesn't just sit there like Rule of Law or Arcane Laboratory, it can actually attack and, with help, kill your opponent. I say with help because a lone Meddling Mage would take about 10 turns to kill the other player and that may be giving the combo player too much time.

Hanni, keeping 4 Meddling Mage in the maindeck in a mixed Legacy metagame is a poor call. Don't let your success on Day 2 go to your head.

Hanni
10-12-2006, 12:36 AM
I'm not letting my success on Day 2 go to my head. Meddling Mage is a good creature. It may not be as good in Thresh as it is in Fish do to the lack of synergy and support that the Thresh has for it... but if your going to drop Mage to give the deck a better game 1 against aggro, why not just run UGr Thresh? It seems like the only reason to run white is for StP and Mage. I mean, the red splash can still board in Stifle to hit the Solidarity players lands so they don't combo off in time and the Stifle can be a last resort against a resolves Brainfreeze.

Meddling Mage is still a crutch for any opponent to deal with. It's card advantage in most cases. Like I said, it may not be that good in Thresh, but Anwar seems to think that small creatures suck in this format and I don't believe that to be true in the slightest. I mean, yeah, if your just putting a deck together with a bunch of 1/1's and 2/2's, your not going to have a good deck. If you toss in Jitte and Mother of Runes, those 2/1's and 2/2's become significantly more powerful.

At any rate, if people are gonna start running UGw Thresh with StP as the only reason white is included, I'd go UGr for Bolt, Fire/Ice, Magma Jet, Pyroclasm, etc. I still think Meddling Mage is a great card, regardless if everyone else thinks it sucks.

AnwarA101
10-12-2006, 07:17 AM
Meddling Mage is still a crutch for any opponent to deal with. It's card advantage in most cases. Like I said, it may not be that good in Thresh, but Anwar seems to think that small creatures suck in this format and I don't believe that to be true in the slightest. I mean, yeah, if your just putting a deck together with a bunch of 1/1's and 2/2's, your not going to have a good deck. If you toss in Jitte and Mother of Runes, those 2/1's and 2/2's become significantly more powerful.

At any rate, if people are gonna start running UGw Thresh with StP as the only reason white is included, I'd go UGr for Bolt, Fire/Ice, Magma Jet, Pyroclasm, etc. I still think Meddling Mage is a great card, regardless if everyone else thinks it sucks.

You are oversimplifying my position. I don't actually believe that all small creatures suck in this format. You just mentioned a creature that I don't think sucks in Legacy - Mother of Runes. She is dangerous to any creature based decks because she makes every creature including herself a wall that can destroy opposing creatures. But if you play small creatures that basically do nothing to change the board state then yes I think they are bad against other decks playing creatures. They essentially aren't threats because your opponent is playing bigger creatures and so they do nothing to improve your situation.

Your point about Jitte only points out that Jitte with any creature is a threat which makes Jitte the bigger threat not the creature that is attached to it. The better the creature that is attached to the equipment the better chance of it surviving long enough to swing with the Jitte.

Nightmare
10-12-2006, 09:18 AM
I'd like to point out for those who say the choice is based on metagame that I'm talking about a typical Legacy metagame, like that you could expect to see at a large Legacy tournament. If I'm ever talking about one specific atypical metagame, I'll say so. If you want to discuss one, please be clear.I had this discussion with you in Connecticut. It was a general meta, and I had MD Mage. We saw how that went.


It is misleading to assert that an aggro-control deck is necessarily based on tempo cards. Tempo is an important part of any deck, but really, an aggro-control deck has to balance tempo with other means of victory to be successful.This is not a contradiction, but it is redundant. These "other means of victory" are part of the tempo, ie: getting out good sized guys faster than you opponent can. It isn't a misnomer to call Gro a tempo deck. It runs Daze. I really don't see any way you could deny it being a tempo deck, other than to straw man me.

Tempo is important to Gro, but it's only one aspect of the deck. When you say the deck is tempo-based, you risk doing exactly what you're warning against - viewing the deck as far more aggressive than it is.Give me a single other aspect of the deck and you win this argument. The entire deck is based on dropping a threat and Time Walking your opponent to victory.

Meddling Mage's ability isn't a Time Walk. At best (i.e. they have the card and the Mage stays as long as you'd need it) it's a Duress. But again, Gro isn't solely a tempo deck, and certainly not to the point of running weak cards.


Tempo is important because there is a direct relationship between winning and maintaining your tempo advantage (or successfully negating it). However, Tempo is interesting because it manifests itself in so many different ways. It isn't limited to decks with creatures that attack or virtual card advantage. If you are utilizing Tempo effectively, you are keeping your opponent off balance and dictating the terms of the game.

Tempo IS Interesting (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=7601)
by Steve Menendian

Everything is a Time Walk (http://www.newwavegames.com/strategy/articles/sep00/scke0907.html)
by Scott Keller


It seems to me that there are two main mistakes people make when they argue for Meddling Mage:First of all, calling it a mistake is arrogant and uncalled for. By no means is your opinion on the matter the final word on the issue, nor will I concede the matter based on you calling my opinion a "mistake."


1. They glorify what is, in essence, a combo hate card. Yes, you can say that it disrupts the opponent by preventing him from playing a spell. You can point out that it can do this against any deck. You can even claim that the fact that it is a 2/2 makes it a good card all by itself. But if I ask you to show me specific matchups where Mage is better than, say, the next best draw spell you're not running, the only answers are combo decks. It draws removal against Goblins. It disrupts Red Death. It's a speedbump against Angel Stompy.The last time I played the deck (Conn.) I admitted I didn't plan to see much Goblins, which was an accurate prediction. I lost to them in the Finals, but of my own play errors, not the deck's. I have never, in all the tournaments I have played in, played against Red Death, a deck that is almost uniquely confined to the Virginia metagame. It is not high on my list of decks to metagame for. Angel Stompy is rapidly declining in popularity.


And yet you'd board it out in all those matchups before you even knew what you'd bring in.Vs. Goblins: -4 Mage, -1 Enforcer, +4 Hydroblast, +1 Pithing Needle. Vs. RD: -2 Mage, -1 Portent, -1 Mental Note, -1 Engineered Explosives, +3 Hydroblast, +1 Enforcer, +1 Pithing Needle. Vs. AS: -4 Mage, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Enforcer, +2 Naturalize.


For all it's little advantages, it's still primarily combo hate. You're trying to run maindeck combo hate in a deck with no better matchup than combo. It has never been acceptable to maindeck hate for your best matchup.In my eyes, he's part of the reason the matchup is so good. Without him, you might as well be playing CounterSliver.


2. They believe there is a great difference between a card that is dead and a card that is simply bad. There is not, particularly not in this deck. When you play a turn one Serum Visions and see a dead card, you'll put it on the bottom. When you play that same Serum Visions and see a bad but not completely dead card, you'll put it on the bottom just as quickly. Mage isn't dead in the mirror and Needle is, but it doesn't matter which one you see with a Brainstorm; if you have a fetchland, that card is going away. Seeing a dead card and seeing a bad card both limit your options when playing draw - generally, you'll want to shuffle either back, Predict either to the yard, or scry either to the bottom. In any of these cases, you'll be seeing another card in their place. As long as the card you sent away is worse than the worst card you draw as a result, it does exactly the same damage - forcing you to draw that card. Suppose you're resolving a Brainstorm with a fetchland in play against Solidarity and the three worst cards in your hand are Portent and two cards that are either Werebear and Swords to Plowshares. Assume Portent is better than Werebear in this stage of the game. Now, it doesn't actually matter whether the two cards are the dead Swords or the not dead but still bad Bear. Their effect is exactly the same: you have to take the Portent. In this case a dead card is no worse than a bad one. But this is all unique to Gro; other decks provide countless examples of how a bad card is only better than a dead one in those rare situations in which it affects the game - not many, because, after all, bad cards are called that precisely because they are unlikely to help you.All of this basically says to me "Mage gets shuffled/scryed away, so don't run him." Well, I often Scrye Land away. And Swords. And Werebear. Maybe we shouldn't run those either.

you can keep running Mage, crush combo, and have a difficult time against Goblins, or you can cut it, beat both, and realize why a good Gro list really is the best deck in the format.Or you can run it, smash Combo, smash Control, have a close game 1 vs. Goblins and smash them games 2 and 3. I pick that option.

URABAHN
10-12-2006, 11:39 AM
I had this discussion with you in Connecticut. It was a general meta, and I had MD Mage. We saw how that went.

I remember you earning your Imperial Seal and not really trying vs. Goblins. Your point? Mad Zur didn't run MD Mage at the Star City Games Duel for Duals and we saw how that went. Are you trying to claim your build is the best build and because you won the CT tourney that means MD Mage is correct?


This is not a contradiction, but it is redundant. These "other means of victory" are part of the tempo, ie: getting out good sized guys faster than you opponent can. It isn't a misnomer to call Gro a tempo deck. It runs Daze. I really don't see any way you could deny it being a tempo deck, other than to straw man me.

So, any deck that runs Daze is a tempo deck? You give the example, "getting out good sized guys faster than your opponent can." Maybe your playstyle is different, but I don't think that's how Gro wins. I always feel like I'm losing with Gro until BAM Goose, Goose, Werebear.


Give me a single other aspect of the deck and you win this argument. The entire deck is based on dropping a threat and Time Walking your opponent to victory.

I'd like to call for an immediate tar and feathering of anyone who uses this tired cliche. Insert Card Here is like a Time Walk vs. Insert Deck Here. No, it's not. Time Walk costs 1U, doesn't let your opponent draw a card or play a land. Time Walk doesn't let your opponent have an upkeep, draw step, main phase, or end step. Again, maybe your playstyle is different, in which case all this discussion about MD Mage would be moot, but as you said, Gro is an aggro control deck. I don't think it Time Walks every turn, I think it controls the board and lays down threats like Mongoose and Werebear.


First of all, calling it a mistake is arrogant and uncalled for. By no means is your opinion on the matter the final word on the issue, nor will I concede the matter based on you calling my opinion a "mistake." The last time I played the deck (Conn.) I admitted I didn't plan to see much Goblins, which was an accurate prediction. I lost to them in the Finals, but of my own play errors, not the deck's. I have never, in all the tournaments I have played in, played against Red Death, a deck that is almost uniquely confined to the Virginia metagame. It is not high on my list of decks to metagame for. Angel Stompy is rapidly declining in popularity.

Vs. Goblins: -4 Mage, -1 Enforcer, +4 Hydroblast, +1 Pithing Needle. Vs. RD: -2 Mage, -1 Portent, -1 Mental Note, -1 Engineered Explosives, +3 Hydroblast, +1 Enforcer, +1 Pithing Needle. Vs. AS: -4 Mage, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Enforcer, +2 Naturalize.

In my eyes, he's part of the reason the matchup is so good. Without him, you might as well be playing CounterSliver.

Why is he part of the reason what matchup is so good? I'm not sure if you're talking about Goblins, Red Death, or Angel Stompy. Is it because you can side him out vs. Goblins, Red Death, and Angel Stompy? You said you weren't expecting many Goblins decks, is that why you played Meddling Mage in the maindeck?


All of this basically says to me "Mage gets shuffled/scryed away, so don't run him." Well, I often Scrye Land away. And Swords. And Werebear. Maybe we shouldn't run those either.
Or you can run it, smash Combo, smash Control, have a close game 1 vs. Goblins and smash them games 2 and 3. I pick that option.

Renewed Faith cycles, would you run that? You can just cycle it and draw a different card. What about Akroma's Blessing, which cycles for 1 less mana? Abeyance essentially cycles, so does Bandage. Would you run those in Gro? The point I'm trying to make is there's something to be said about good card quality. If I'm going to put Mage on the bottom on the deck most of the time because I'd rather have a Counterspell, StP, Mongoose, Werebear, or cantrip, I think I wouldn't play Mage at all.

In a more extreme case, card quality is why Rifter does so well against Goblins and Gro and that same card quality will earn you a tick in the loss column vs. combo. I'll lose Game 1 vs. combo, then side out 3x Humility, 3x Wrath, 4x StP, Disenchant, Akroma's Vengeance, Starstorm, Slice and Dice, and a fist full of creature removal. In Game 2 and 3, I'm totally set with the cards I sided in, right?

Speaking of Rifter and control decks in general, you say that Meddling Mage helps you vs. control. How? Do you name Force of Will? Do you name Swords to Plowshares, Wrath of God?

Volt
10-12-2006, 11:55 AM
So, any deck that runs Daze is a tempo deck?

Oh, oh! Can I answer that one? Yes, any deck that runs Daze is a tempo deck.

Personally, I can see running Meddling Mage in the maindeck or in the sideboard. I can't see not running it at all.

Nightmare
10-12-2006, 12:11 PM
I remember you earning your Imperial Seal and not really trying vs. Goblins. Your point? Mad Zur didn't run MD Mage at the Star City Games Duel for Duals and we saw how that went. Are you trying to claim your build is the best build and because you won the CT tourney that means MD Mage is correct?No, I'm just saying it isn't a flat out wrong decision, which is what you, Anwar, and Zur are saying.


So, any deck that runs Daze is a tempo deck? You give the example, "getting out good sized guys faster than your opponent can." Maybe your playstyle is different, but I don't think that's how Gro wins. I always feel like I'm losing with Gro until BAM Goose, Goose, Werebear.Generally, unless your deck contains 20 Islands and Morphling, or a bunch of draw spells and Psychatog, if you run Daze, you are a tempo deck. It's a signature spell of the deck type. Perhaps you're right though, and we play the deck very differently.


I'd like to call for an immediate tar and feathering of anyone who uses this tired cliche. Insert Card Here is like a Time Walk vs. Insert Deck Here. No, it's not. Time Walk costs 1U, doesn't let your opponent draw a card or play a land. Time Walk doesn't let your opponent have an upkeep, draw step, main phase, or end step. Again, maybe your playstyle is different, in which case all this discussion about MD Mage would be moot, but as you said, Gro is an aggro control deck. I don't think it Time Walks every turn, I think it controls the board and lays down threats like Mongoose and Werebear.Read the article, and then proceed with the tar and feathering. I will continue to use the terminology, as the analogy remains true. Every time I can set my opponent back a turn, I effectively cast Time Walk on myself. Maybe my opponent used a draw step, but maybe he used a card in his hand ineffectively, maybe he got his draw for the turn stuck dead in his hand, maybe he commited to a spell and I countered it. Any of those ways, I get to take a virtual extra turn that he used doing nothing productive.


Why is he part of the reason what matchup is so good? I'm not sure if you're talking about Goblins, Red Death, or Angel Stompy.... You said you weren't expecting many Goblins decks, is that why you played Meddling Mage in the maindeck?I was referring to the combo matchup, and yes, the low presence of Goblins was the reason I ran him MD.


Renewed Faith cycles, would you run that? You can just cycle it and draw a different card. What about Akroma's Blessing, which cycles for 1 less mana? Abeyance essentially cycles, so does Bandage. Would you run those in Gro? The point I'm trying to make is there's something to be said about good card quality. If I'm going to put Mage on the bottom on the deck most of the time because I'd rather have a Counterspell, StP, Mongoose, Werebear, or cantrip, I think I wouldn't play Mage at all.You are saying exactly the same thing as I said, just in a different way. The fact that I occasionally see a card I don't want and cycle it away is not a reason to play it, nor is it a reason to cut it.


Speaking of Rifter and control decks in general, you say that Meddling Mage helps you vs. control. How? Do you name Force of Will? Do you name Swords to Plowshares, Wrath of God?I name removal spells, particularly Swords, since it makes them commit to board sweepers, forcing them to spend more mana which makes them easier to counter. Again, if I play turn 2/3 Mage on STP, they now have to Wrath my Werebear, and if I Daze it on Turn 4, I Time Walk them.

AnwarA101
10-12-2006, 12:47 PM
I'm only saying that Mage is a poor threat in the matchups where creatures determine the outcome of the game. This isn't true usually for your matchups against combo and control where Mage maybe the better choice. But control isn't exactly popular and Thresh is already really good against combo. Goblins and other aggro decks seem to be more popular especially outside of NY.

Mad Zur
10-12-2006, 12:50 PM
Give me a single other aspect of the deck and you win this argument. The deck is based on maintaining superior card quality, with terms like card advantage and velocity being relevant as well. The deck does run Daze, but it also runs a bunch of cards that do nothing but draw more cards. Predict is not tempo unless you define tempo to include every possible strategy. Then every deck is a tempo deck and calling it such is essentially meaningless. Similarly, Mage is not a Time Walk unless you claim everything that gets you any kind of advantage is a Time Walk. Then, calling it a Time Walk is no more meaningful than calling it a Magic card.

First of all, calling it a mistake is arrogant and uncalled for. By no means is your opinion on the matter the final word on the issue, nor will I concede the matter based on you calling my opinion a "mistake." If I didn't think it was a mistake to run Mage or you didn't think it was a mistake not to run Mage (at least sometimes), we wouldn't be having this argument. You don't need to be offended just because we disagree. I'm not telling you to concede, I'm stating my opinion. And if you want to talk about arrogance:

I had this discussion with you in Connecticut. It was a general meta, and I had MD Mage. We saw how that went.
The last time I played the deck (Conn.) I admitted I didn't plan to see much Goblins, which was an accurate prediction. I lost to them in the Finals, but of my own play errors, not the deck's. I have never, in all the tournaments I have played in, played against Red Death, a deck that is almost uniquely confined to the Virginia metagame. It is not high on my list of decks to metagame for. Angel Stompy is rapidly declining in popularity.

Vs. Goblins: -4 Mage, -1 Enforcer, +4 Hydroblast, +1 Pithing Needle. Vs. RD: -2 Mage, -1 Portent, -1 Mental Note, -1 Engineered Explosives, +3 Hydroblast, +1 Enforcer, +1 Pithing Needle. Vs. AS: -4 Mage, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Enforcer, +2 Naturalize. Those were examples. All I was saying is that for all the reasons people like to point out Mage isn't dead against non-combo decks, it's still terrible and usually the first card to be boarded out. (As an aside, I'm pretty sure I'd take out all the Mages against Red Death before taking out any draw.)

In my eyes, he's part of the reason the matchup is so good. Without him, you might as well be playing CounterSliver. How much have you tested against combo without Mage? How did it go?

All of this basically says to me "Mage gets shuffled/scryed away, so don't run him." Well, I often Scrye Land away. And Swords. And Werebear. Maybe we shouldn't run those either. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, "Sure Mage is bad in some matchups, but at least it's not dead" is a weak argument.

Or you can run it, smash Combo, smash Control, have a close game 1 vs. Goblins and smash them games 2 and 3. I pick that option. How is cutting Mage going to affect this in any way other than letting you beat Goblins?

Bardo
10-12-2006, 01:29 PM
Just to throw a different spin on the whole Meddling Mage argument, let's see how many Mages Top8 decks have been run in the "Legacy Big Events (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27024.0)."

1st Place BA2: 4 Maindeck Magi
1st Place GP Lille: 4 Maindeck Magi
1st Place Kadilaks DLD I: 0 Maindeck Magi | 3 in the Sideboard
1st Place SCG DFD III, Day 1: 4 Maindeck Magi
2nd Place TML 2006: 4 Maindeck Magi
2nd Place GP Lille: 2 Maindeck Magi | 2 in the Sideboard
4th Place Kadilak's DLD II: 4 Maindeck Magi
5th Place GP Barcelona: 3 Maindeck Magi
7th Place GP Philly: 4 Maindeck Magi
7th Place Kadilak's DLD II: 0 Maindeck Magi
8th Place GP Philly: 3 Maindeck Magi | 1 in the Sideboard
8th Place Legacy Worlds 2006: 4 Maindeck Magi

I don't think I've missed anything, other than the most recent SCG DFD, but I don't have the lists--even though I know at least one Hatfield T8'd (i.e. no Magi).

But from this data...
The number of T8 Threshold decks running maindeck Mage: 10 (36 total MD Magi, 6 total SB Magi)
The number of T8 Threshold decks not running maindeck Mage: 2

Despite all manner of randomness, maindeck Meddling Mages have paid off for many people. That Ob Freely and Mad Zur can do well and not run them doesn't mean they're bad.

As for the "metagame argument," is the metagame significantly different now than it was a year ago? Goblins isn't exactly some brand new break-out deck that's taken the format by storm. However, combo is clearly on the rise. Do you need Mage to beat combo? Obviously no, but he really helps.

Also to be clear, I don't have a strong opinion on the topic (i.e. the deck is proven to do well with or without them), but the data tells an interesting story. Whether you run them or not is up to you and you'll probably do fine either way you go.

And for the record, I couldn't agree more with Geeba:


I don't think the mage-discussion is very helpful for the development of the deck, I guess we all know by now against which decks it's useful and against which decks not. People shouldn't evaluate their deck in a vacu&#252;m, but take their meta and their own playskills into account. I think it's impossible to reach a consensus here, unless you're playing in a similar meta.

w3rd.

Nightmare
10-12-2006, 02:07 PM
The deck is based on maintaining superior card quality, with terms like card advantage and velocity being relevant as well. The deck does run Daze, but it also runs a bunch of cards that do nothing but draw more cards. Predict is not tempo unless you define tempo to include every possible strategy. Then every deck is a tempo deck and calling it such is essentially meaningless. Similarly, Mage is not a Time Walk unless you claim everything that gets you any kind of advantage is a Time Walk. Then, calling it a Time Walk is no more meaningful than calling it a Magic card.Card advantage is something almost every deck (combo and extremely dedicated aggro being the exceptions) strives to achieve, be it actual (Predict) or virtual (Meddling Mage). Velocity is a term I can honestly say I've never heard used to describe a deck, unless you're referring to Speed, which is definately not something this deck shoots for unless it's forced to. I do not run Predict anymore, but it isn't so much a tempo card as a control card, which happens to fit well into the overall deck synergy and plan. Please, I linked you to the article "Everything is a Time Walk." Go read it.


If I didn't think it was a mistake to run Mage or you didn't think it was a mistake not to run Mage (at least sometimes), we wouldn't be having this argument. You don't need to be offended just because we disagree.I definately don't think it's a mistake to not run Mage. I've removed him from the deck at times, too. What I disagree with is the idea that playing him is a mistake, and how adamant you seem to be about the issue.


How much have you tested against combo without Mage? How did it go?Solidarity is a bit more difficult, because you don't have Mage on High Tide to slow them way down. Your counters need to be extremely well placed, and you end up striving for a solid threat on the board much more. IGG is a difficult match if they lead with Leyline and you don't have Force in hand. Even if you do, you need a solid counterspell hand to back up Force if they have multiple threats in hand. Without Leyline, it's significantly easier, as you can pretty much recur Force or Daze for the win.


That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, "Sure Mage is bad in some matchups, but at least it's not dead" is a weak argument.
How is cutting Mage going to affect this in any way other than letting you beat Goblins?What I fail to understand is how Mage is going to be significantly detrimental to your Goblins matchup to begin with.

Bardo
10-12-2006, 02:20 PM
What I fail to understand is how Mage is going to be significantly detrimental to your Goblins matchup to begin with.

He's obviously not a star and I always side mine out for Blue Blasts and such, but being a 2/2 and trading with or trumping literally every one of their dudes (sans Piledriver) isn't exactly bad--he's just "not great." But this isn't the same as being "detrimental." 'Far from it.

And if he slows a Warchief from being cast for a few turns* (before he's Incinderated), he's still done his job.


* i.e. Vial has been pithed, is countered or hasn't been drawn.

AnwarA101
10-12-2006, 03:00 PM
What I fail to understand is how Mage is going to be significantly detrimental to your Goblins matchup to begin with.

Because Mage isn't something better. He's a 2/2 that can't block Piledriver, can't do anything about Vial (unlike Pithing Needle), and he can't draw you a better card (all your cantrips).

He's like Lightning Bolt in the UGR vs. UGW mirror, Lightning Bolt isn't dead but its so bad that you wished it was something else.

My Name Is Scott
10-12-2006, 03:43 PM
Just to throw a different spin on the whole Meddling Mage argument, let's see how many Mages Top8 decks have been run in the "Legacy Big Events (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27024.0)."
...
Despite all manner of randomness, maindeck Meddling Mages have paid off for many people. That Ob Freely and Mad Zur can do well and not run them doesn't mean they're bad.

That means nothing until you figure out how many people entered with or without maindeck mages in those events.

Mad Zur
10-12-2006, 03:44 PM
Card advantage is something almost every deck (combo and extremely dedicated aggro being the exceptions) strives to achieve, be it actual (Predict) or virtual (Meddling Mage). Velocity is a term I can honestly say I've never heard used to describe a deck, unless you're referring to Speed, which is definately not something this deck shoots for unless it's forced to. I do not run Predict anymore, but it isn't so much a tempo card as a control card, which happens to fit well into the overall deck synergy and plan. Please, I linked you to the article "Everything is a Time Walk." Go read it.
A. The link is broken. Here (http://members.fortunecity.com/dlanod/magic/theories/timewalk.html) is a working one.
B. I have read it, and if you accept it, your initial statement, "Mage is a Time Walk", has no relevance. If everything is a Time Walk, calling Meddling Mage a Time Walk does not make it worth running. The point of the article is that every resource can be measured in turns, not that we can call anything a Time Walk to make it sound like a better card.
C. You seem to agree that the draw engine is not tempo-based.
D. You now classify Mage as card advantage, which I agree is much more accurate than your initial claim that it is tempo (though it still assumes your best case scenario).

Solidarity is a bit more difficult, because you don't have Mage on High Tide to slow them way down. Your counters need to be extremely well placed, So you have to play correctly?

and you end up striving for a solid threat on the board much more. Werebear and Nimble Mongoose are quite solid.

IGG is a difficult match if they lead with Leyline and you don't have Force in hand. Even if you do, you need a solid counterspell hand to back up Force if they have multiple threats in hand. Without Leyline, it's significantly easier, as you can pretty much recur Force or Daze for the win. True, Mage helps you out against Iggy-Pop's best draws. But in every situation where they don't lead with Leyline, they either can't win or don't give you time to play Mage anyway. Mage will win you a small percentage of games here that you would have otherwise lost, but it's mostly irrelevant because even if you lose game one, you board answers to their hate and have a near autowin.

What I fail to understand is how Mage is going to be significantly detrimental to your Goblins matchup to begin with. To cut it, it only has to be detrimental enough that it makes running Mage even slightly worse against the field than running something else. It doesn't have to be the worst card in the world.

Just to throw a different spin on the whole Meddling Mage argument, let's see how many Mages Top8 decks have been run in the "Legacy Big Events (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27024.0)."
This is irrelevant. If you could show me tournaments where Gro with Mage is no more popular than Gro without Mage but still manages to take more top 8 slots, we might have something.

quicksilver
10-12-2006, 03:54 PM
Man this is like a war, reminds me of the lava dart argument. My personal opinion on mage is I think it is best in the board. Of course depending on meta you may want it in main or not at all. I personally think that the mage is weak against most decks and I would only run it in the main in combo heavy metas (like 50% of your matches). The deck already has a good game against combo, there is no denying that so it may be better to reserve those spots to help in weaker matches. From a personal point of view with survival I love seeing my opponent play mage, sure sometimes it randomly wins, but more often than not it is the card advantage I need to win the game, often by FTKing it. I personally think the mage is weak against decks running removal and decks where it cannot reliably swing in every turn, which is a good number of the decks out there. However I am not saying that running mage is wrong, but I personally would feel thresh stronger without it, but if you find it works for you then go for it.

Bardo
10-12-2006, 04:02 PM
That means nothing until you figure out how many people entered with or without maindeck mages in those events.

This is a good point, but for most of these events, we've never had all of the decklists to do the kind of analysis required here.


If you could show me tournaments where Gro with Mage is no more popular than Gro without Mage but still manages to take more top 8 slots, we might have something.

Here's an easy one since I started this anyalysis for my last article (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/12521.html).

I'll just add another column:

Place | Colors | Land Count | Mental Note | Portent | Predict | Meddling Mage MD (SB)

1 | U/G/w | 17 | 3 | 0 | 4 | 4 - Bardo Version
10 | U/G/r/w | 18 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 3
26 | U/G/w | 17 | 0 | 4 | 4 | (0) (3)
41 | U/G/b | 19 | 0 | 4 | 4 | N/A
49 | U/G/r/w | 18 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 4
55 | U/G/r/w | 17 | 3 | 0 | 0 (but 4 AK) | 4
62 | U/G/w | 18 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 3 (1)
64 | U/G/w | 17 | 0 | 4 | 4 | 0 - Mad Zur
71 | U/G/w | 17 | 0 | 3 | 4 | 0 (4)

Placement of decking running maindeck Magi:
1
10
49
55
62
(avg 35.40th place)

Placement of decks not running maindeck Magi:
26 (3 in the board)
64
71
(53.66th place)

Takes this for what it's worth. And yeah, we need a lot more data.

Amon Amarth
10-12-2006, 04:34 PM
I prefer Meddling mage MD because he is so good vs Control/Combo. Yes, Chris Pikula is sucky vs Goblins, but I figure any deck with only 4 or so removal spells is going to have a hard time. I will try and outplay my opponents and have a super sweet Blast+Crusade Sideboard ready to go.

URABAHN
10-12-2006, 04:58 PM
Read the article, and then proceed with the tar and feathering. I will continue to use the terminology, as the analogy remains true. Every time I can set my opponent back a turn, I effectively cast Time Walk on myself. Maybe my opponent used a draw step, but maybe he used a card in his hand ineffectively, maybe he got his draw for the turn stuck dead in his hand, maybe he commited to a spell and I countered it. Any of those ways, I get to take a virtual extra turn that he used doing nothing productive.

That article sucked. It's old and I don't think it applies anymore and I don't think anything he describes is anything like the power that is Time Walk. If what say is true, then your opponent never gets to do anything because they haven't done anything meaningful over the course of several turns and/or you've stopped them. Then why doesn't Gro automatically win every single time? You Daze, you Counterspell, you Force of Will, you Pithing Needle, you Meddling Mage, then BLAAARRRR *flails hands wildly* drop some beaters and win. Man, that's so much like you cast Time Walk, you cast Time Walk, you cast Time Walk, you cast Time Walk, you cast Time Walk, then BLAAARRRR *flails hands wildly* drop some beaters and win! You win all the time, right? Sadly, you don't win all the time, because your opponent gets to have their entire turn. Your opponent gets to play land and draw cards and attack. They're furthering their goal by developing resources, finding answers, and lowering your life total.


You are saying exactly the same thing as I said, just in a different way. The fact that I occasionally see a card I don't want and cycle it away is not a reason to play it, nor is it a reason to cut it.

If I play Bandage in Gro, I'll occasionally see that card that I don't want and cycle it away, but that's not a reason to play it, nor is it a reason to cut it. Or maybe I could play something better?


I name removal spells, particularly Swords, since it makes them commit to board sweepers, forcing them to spend more mana which makes them easier to counter. Again, if I play turn 2/3 Mage on STP, they now have to Wrath my Werebear, and if I Daze it on Turn 4, I Time Walk them.

For all the boys and girls watching at home, this is what exactly what Gro is not supposed to do. I've played enough Landstill and Rifter to know that if you name StP with Mage, you're in trouble. You're going to play another creature after that, because Mage would otherwise take 10 turns to kill your opponent--too damn long. That's when you get hit with Akroma's Vengeance, Wrath of God, Humility, Nevinyrral's Disk, Pyroclasm, Starstorm, Slice and Dice, or whatever the hell kind of removal control is packing. You can't deny every single removal spell, you'll try to Counter and Force away the removal, but you're going to run out of counters and you're going to lose, who got Time Walked now?

Nightmare
10-12-2006, 05:41 PM
For all the boys and girls watching at home, this is what exactly what Gro is not supposed to do. I've played enough Landstill and Rifter to know that if you name StP with Mage, you're in trouble. You're going to play another creature after that, because Mage would otherwise take 10 turns to kill your opponent--too damn long. That's when you get hit with Akroma's Vengeance, Wrath of God, Humility, Nevinyrral's Disk, Pyroclasm, Starstorm, Slice and Dice, or whatever the hell kind of removal control is packing. You can't deny every single removal spell, you'll try to Counter and Force away the removal, but you're going to run out of counters and you're going to lose, who got Time Walked now?I've played against Landstill and Rifter and Wombat a ton, too, and naming removal spells *is* the right call.
Vs Landstill Naming Swords buys you at least a few turns to swing, since their manabase is a pile, and they're lucky to find WW anyway. If they do, good job. They still have to spend 2-3 mana per turn or more to swing, and have to spend 4-6 mana to wipe the board anyway, spending 2 more cards or 2 more mana to back it up. Your threats are more potent than theirs, and their draw engine is terrible. You should not be losing to Landstill.
Wombat scoops to Counterspell on their board sweepers, which all cost 4 or more. By the time they hit 4 mana, you should have them at like 12 at the most, and probably with a decent supply of counters in hand. Factor in even a single Needle on Decree or an Explosives for 0 and its a non-issue. I'm not saying its cake, but it's not an auto-loss.
Rifter is a bit harder, since they have cycling removal. Mage is Ass vs. them.

I'm not sure where you're coming from on this one, Control is usually a pretty decent matchup for Gro.

I'll say it again, I'm not arguing that Meddling Mage is the be-all, end-all, must-have-maindecked card. I'm saying that it isn't a terrible decision to maindeck him, and that he's strong in some matchups, weak in others. Much like many other cards in the deck. He fluctuates between the main and side in my personal builds, and I suppose in some metagames (Virginia, I guess) he can be cut altogether. In my eyes, though, two things factor in to make me keep him.

1) To me, he has a positive overal net effect. This means he does more good than harm. Ther are more times when he's been extremely helpful to me than when he's been shit, and the times he's shit are mitigated by scrying, shuffling, chumping, being pitched to FoW. Call them cop-outs, or excuses for bad cards if you will, but I disagree with you, again, due to the net effect.
2) 2/3 of your games are played with your sideboard in play. I would rather have access to a versatile card which can be amazing for you in all three games, or work around it (or have it be marginal) game one and then utilize my board to find a more specific solution games 2 and 3. Note that in the past, the two cards have been Pithing Needle and Mage, in the opposite configuration.

quicksilver
10-12-2006, 05:55 PM
I was under the impression that Landstill was a poor match for thresh, which is why the rise of solidarity made thresh so good, not only because it was a good match but because solidarity made landstill go away and landstill was a very unfavorable match for thresh.

Nightmare
10-12-2006, 06:10 PM
I was under the impression that Landstill was a poor match for thresh, which is why the rise of solidarity made thresh so good, not only because it was a good match but because solidarity made landstill go away and landstill was a very unfavorable match for thresh.

From the original primer in the old Gro thread:


Landstill: This deck is not favored against you, no matter how tough it may seem. Typically Needles will want to hit Wastelands or Factories, leaving them with very few threats. With a Meddling Mage naming Swords, all you have to do is counter Wrath effects and they have a lot of trouble winning the game before you. Don't be afraid to break Standstill, as typically they'll just draw more inefficient cards that don't affect you that much. After board, Armageddon is a wrecking ball when you have a threshold creature on the board, so just save your free counters to defend it and you should be able to take it home without much trouble.

Bardo
10-12-2006, 06:16 PM
I was under the impression that Landstill was a poor match for thresh, which is why the rise of solidarity made thresh so good, not only because it was a good match but because solidarity made landstill go away and landstill was a very unfavorable match for thresh.

I've played the match enough times to say it's favorable for Thresh. Nimble Mongoose is a huge pain in the ass and most of the Landstill removal is hellaciously slow. Meddling Mage and Werebear are solid as well.

Landstill's draw is often bad too. Being under heavy board pressure isn't exactly the best time to drop Standstill.

From one of my articles (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10811.html):


Vs. Landstill
+3 Seal of Cleansing
+2 Armageddon
+1 Stifle
-2 Sleight of Hand
-1 Serum Visions
-1 Intuition
-1 Meddling Mage
-1 Engineered Explosives

Meddling Mage: Swords to Plowshares, Standstill, Wrath of God, Nevinyrral's Disk, Crucible of Worlds - depending on the game-state.

Against Landstill, Seal of Cleansing is your all-purpose Swiss Army knife. Seal proactively answers Landstill's two most threatening sources of long-term card advantage: Crucible of Worlds and Standstill. Seal also doubles as creature removal for opposing Mishra's Factories and can destroy Nevinyrral's Disk before it becomes active. Seal of Cleansing is a handy tool indeed.

As for the match, 3cTheshold is the beatdown deck. Drop your Seals to shut down Standstill and prevent Wasteland and Factory recursion with Crucible. And don't be afraid to sacrifice a Seal to destroy itself if you're one card shy of threshold. That play won't win you any awards, but it might be the right move at the time.

With the increased fetchland and cantrip count you can more reliably hit threshold as early as turn 3, though turn 4 is more common.

Consider these opening plays:

Turn 1: Play Flooded Strand; sacrifice Strand to fetch an Island (graveyard count: 1); cast Serum Visions (graveyard: 2).

Turn 2: Play Windswept Heath; sacrifice for a basic Forest (graveyard: 3); play Werebear.

Turn 3: Play Polluted Delta; cast Brainstorm (graveyard: 4); sacrifice Delta for Tropical Island (graveyard: 5); cast Accumulated Knowledge (#1) (graveyard: 6); in response your opponent Wastelands your Tropical Island (graveyard: 7, threshold); attack with Werebear for 4.

Note we've seen six more cards than our opponent by this point and we also have a 5-turn clock to deal with. And that's another way to keep Standstill off the board: put your opponent in the defensive position. But use only as much force as needed, and no more.

Landstill has less removal than you have creatures, and excepting Swords to Plowshares, their removal is slow and clunky (making Daze stronger) and you have more counters and a better draw engine besides.

From the sideboard, Armageddon is brought in, and that is a savage beating against Landstill, especially when you have a threshold creature on the board.

Stifle is also brought in to counter Wasteland and an otherwise "uncounterable" cycling of Decree of Justice. In the worst case Stifle will delay the activation of Nevinyrral's Disk for one turn or serve as cheap land destruction (Stifling a Flooded Strand activation) to a mana hungry deck.

This is a close but favorable match, both before and after sideboarding.

But at this point, it's moot.

Also, wtf at that list? Intuition? Ugh.

Mad Zur
10-12-2006, 08:02 PM
Overextending into sweepers is never good against board control. If you think you can get away with it as long as you have a Meddling Mage on StP, that's probably why you guys have more trouble with Rifter than with Landstill.

1 | U/G/w | 17 | 3 | 0 | 4 | 4 - Bardo Version
Since when does the "Bardo Version" run 17 lands and 4 Predict?
In any case, a single tournament with all of three Gro decks without Mage is not the sort of relevant data we would need to conclude anything.

1) To me, he has a positive overal net effect. This means he does more good than harm. Ther are more times when he's been extremely helpful to me than when he's been shit, and the times he's shit are mitigated by scrying, shuffling, chumping, being pitched to FoW. Call them cop-outs, or excuses for bad cards if you will, but I disagree with you, again, due to the net effect.
Net effect relative to what?

2) 2/3 of your games are played with your sideboard in play. I would rather have access to a versatile card which can be amazing for you in all three games, or work around it (or have it be marginal) game one and then utilize my board to find a more specific solution games 2 and 3. None of this matters. We're talking about the maindeck, which means game one.
Note that in the past, the two cards have been Pithing Needle and Mage, in the opposite configuration.How is that relevant?

Nightmare
10-12-2006, 09:29 PM
Net effect relative to what?I thought I was pretty clear. He has been amazing far more than he has sucked.


None of this matters. We're talking about the maindeck, which means game one.If we're focused on Game 1, then you would never have mentioned sideboarding at all, but you have also discussed whether Mage is better in the board, sideboarding strategy with him in the MD, and how he gets sided out every match. You chose to talk about these things, this brings the discussion into the entire match, not just game 1.


How is that relevant?I mentioned it only to point out that Mage and Needle have similar arguments for and against them in the MD, and that although intuitively that statement is about Mage, it could just as easily have been about Needle.

Mad Zur
10-12-2006, 10:46 PM
I thought I was pretty clear. He has been amazing far more than he has sucked.
Been amazing or sucked compared to what alternative?

If we're focused on Game 1, then you would never have mentioned sideboarding at all, but you have also discussed whether Mage is better in the board, sideboarding strategy with him in the MD, and how he gets sided out every match. You chose to talk about these things, this brings the discussion into the entire match, not just game 1. You're right, but those are two seperate issues, and so far we've been talking about the maindeck. If you want, we can discuss Mage's merit as a sideboard card - in my opinion, it compares unfavorably to Stifle, but I'm not nearly as sure on this issue (I've boarded Mage before, though I wasn't happy with how rarely I boarded it in).

I mentioned it only to point out that Mage and Needle have similar arguments for and against them in the MD, and that although intuitively that statement is about Mage, it could just as easily have been about Needle. They are similar in this regard, but Mage helps primarily against your best matchups and Needle helps against many of your difficult matchups including the most popular deck in the format.

ookus2
10-12-2006, 10:49 PM
The last thing I’d like to do is get in the middle of this Mage MD vs. SB discussion/argument, but is there really nothing better to discuss then this? I believe the deck is very close to being optimized, but is there improvement that could be explored elsewhere? I don't have any new fresh ideas for the deck right now, but part of that is because nothing else is being talked about. Click back a couple of pages and you'll see that I'm not the only one suggesting that we move onto something new. But like I said, I’d rather not get in the middle of this.

Citrus-God
10-12-2006, 11:46 PM
The last thing I’d like to do is get in the middle of this Mage MD vs. SB discussion/argument, but is there really nothing better to discuss then this? I believe the deck is very close to being optimized, but is there improvement that could be explored elsewhere? I don't have any new fresh ideas for the deck right now, but part of that is because nothing else is being talked about. Click back a couple of pages and you'll see that I'm not the only one suggesting that we move onto something new. But like I said, I’d rather not get in the middle of this.

I know you think it's boring, but arguing over the decision of Maindecking Meddling Mage in the general metagame maybe the biggest breakthrough in this deck's development, because it decides the following...

1. UGw ThreshGro's reason to splash White in the first place.
2. If those are metagame slots.
3. To prove the deck is resiliant without Mage.
4. To prove Mage's/Needle's viability in the current metagame.
5. To get many view point's on this deck's functions.
6. Those fresh ideas may come if the Meddling Mage debate is decided, as it may open up more free minds to using those open slots for something better. Something that can easily benefit this deck's entire/current development.

What I'm saying is, like the Mental Note/Predict argument, this is one of the most influential debates we've had over card choices in a while. If this debate dies, we will not be sure what is exact purpose of those card choices in the first place.
Yes, I realize the current lists of Threshold are quite optimal, but this deck can still evolve into what it hasnt become of before. Like from White Weenie to Angel Stompy and WWW, Goblin Sligh to Gob-Vantage and FCG, then Vial Goblins, and UW Control to UW Landstill and Angel Control.
This deck is from evolution of Turbo Xerox, Miracle Gro, GAT, and Super Gro, along with some (can be debated) elements from Bird Sh*t and Fish.

Hanni
10-13-2006, 01:39 AM
What about this solution? Cut 2 MD Mage for 2 Serra Avenger and sideboard 2 Mage. :)

URABAHN
10-13-2006, 07:39 AM
The last thing I’d like to do is get in the middle of this Mage MD vs. SB discussion/argument, but is there really nothing better to discuss then this? I believe the deck is very close to being optimized, but is there improvement that could be explored elsewhere? I don't have any new fresh ideas for the deck right now, but part of that is because nothing else is being talked about. Click back a couple of pages and you'll see that I'm not the only one suggesting that we move onto something new. But like I said, I’d rather not get in the middle of this.

Are you just looking for an optimized decklist or are you willing to hear out what people have to say on particular cards for an optimized decklist? Something new that's being discussed is whether or not Gro needs Meddling Mage in the maindeck, in the board, or not at all. Mad Zur and most of the NoVA crew are leaning towards not playing Meddling Mage at all, arguing it's a "win more" card because it helps you win what is already your best matchup. Mr. Nightmare feels it's useful main or otherwise because you can name any card you want to and slow down your opponent to gain tempo.

If you're interested in winning builds, look at Mr. Nightmare's 2nd place build from The Mana Leak Open or Mad Zur's 2nd place build from The Starcity Games Duel for Duals Day 1.

Citrus-God
10-13-2006, 09:43 AM
Are you just looking for an optimized decklist or are you willing to hear out what people have to say on particular cards for an optimized decklist? Something new that's being discussed is whether or not Gro needs Meddling Mage in the maindeck, in the board, or not at all. Mad Zur and most of the NoVA crew are leaning towards not playing Meddling Mage at all, arguing it's a "win more" card because it helps you win what is already your best matchup. Mr. Nightmare feels it's useful main or otherwise because you can name any card you want to and slow down your opponent to gain tempo.

If you're interested in winning builds, look at Mr. Nightmare's 2nd place build from The Mana Leak Open or Mad Zur's 2nd place build from The Starcity Games Duel for Duals Day 1.

And Jesse Hatfield also Top 8ed the second Dual Land Draft, and Alix Hatfield split with Mike Herbig in the finals of the first Dual Land Draft. Yes, Alix and Herbig split the whole Dual Land Draft, and has 3 MMs in the SB, but he probably only sided them in against Solidarity, and probably felt it was unessesary later.

Mirrislegend
10-15-2006, 09:24 PM
Are Jotun Grunt and Swords to Plowshares strong enough reasons to play the white splash if Meddling Mage is, at best, relegated to the sideboard? I, personally, dont believe so, but the numbers (of solid finishes for MM-less UGW builds, and of the lack of UGR builds) say otherwise. How can this be explained? Maybe because UGR Thresh just has not been the subject of continual optimization like UGW? Again, I keep coming around to the idea that UGR may be the future of Thresh (:cry:). Thoughts?

Citrus-God
10-15-2006, 10:47 PM
Are Jotun Grunt and Swords to Plowshares strong enough reasons to play the white splash if Meddling Mage is, at best, relegated to the sideboard? I, personally, dont believe so, but the numbers (of solid finishes for MM-less UGW builds, and of the lack of UGR builds) say otherwise. How can this be explained? Maybe because UGR Thresh just has not been the subject of continual optimization like UGW? Again, I keep coming around to the idea that UGR may be the future of Thresh (:cry:). Thoughts?

What are you talking about? UGr Thresh has been a success in our current metagame. We have Wastedlife's 4c Threshold and 3c Threshold w/ Predict, as well as the Hatfield's version. Red doesnt need Mage. Infact, it wins against Solidarity by making them set-off as soon as possible. UGR I admit has died a little, but I think we have the right builds now for strong results.

Now explain to me why you would have this kind of question here? This is UGw. This is one side of this deck, the other side should be discussed in the UGr Thread.

Solpugid
10-16-2006, 11:43 AM
I hate to continue a discussion of the red splash in this thread, but having played both versions I know why I personally stick to white.

There are a few match-ups that are hard times for thresh. Angel stompy is difficult, and swords is far more likely to be relevant in that match-up than bolts are.

Fledgling dragon requires you to fetch out volcanic islands more than trops. If your opponent wastelands either dual now, you're in a tight spot (waste trop=no bears or gooses, waste volcanic=difficult to play out dragon). Enforcer lets you get both duals evenly, doesn't tie down your mana when you're in "beat you in the face" mode, and has pro-black (randomly important). Plus, I just love the options of mage, grunt, monastery, worship, and armageddon in the main or board.

I tried 4c a while back (Ugrw), and the manabase is just a tad too shaky for my liking. Honestly, I just think the white version has more game against a varied field (especially with the slight decrease in goblin decks lately).

Mirrislegend
10-16-2006, 05:33 PM
Monastery? Really? Has anyone actually used Nantuko Monastery in UGW Thresh? And had it work?

Solpugid
10-16-2006, 06:36 PM
Monastery works well for me as a 1-of main deck. First strike, un-wrathable, and mana in a pinch is great. Plus, I love it when people forget to take him into account when they attack. I won't go above 1 though.

Citrus-God
10-16-2006, 06:59 PM
Monastery works well for me as a 1-of main deck. First strike, un-wrathable, and mana in a pinch is great. Plus, I love it when people forget to take him into account when they attack. I won't go above 1 though.

I run three in the Sideboard at the moment. These were the exact reason why I ran UGw Threshold. I needed better win conditions, and this came along.

Solpugid
10-16-2006, 07:34 PM
Well, I run monastery not only as a good beater, but also to combat slower control decks that ran wrath effects. The problem is, once we get to game 2 I would prefer to side in armaggedon (against landstill and such) over more monasteries, especially since game 2 often brings in grave hate on the other side. That's why I don't run more than I do.

How have your three been working out? And what do you side out for them (not blue producing lands I hope)?

Citrus-God
10-16-2006, 07:49 PM
I sideout a Basic Forest and two spell cards. I also, in fact side them in against Angel Stompy (stops Jitte from getting counters). These were one reason why I had them around.

Sad to say, I took them out because Combo and Aggro is everywhere now. I usually side Monasteries in versus the mirror and any Midgame/Aggro-Control mirror. I run Jotun Grunt now... *sigh, I really do miss them.

Solpugid
10-16-2006, 08:23 PM
Basic forest, right. Sorry, I think I'm a tad biased because of how little I see wasteland. Because of that I run 2 basic islands, but no other basics. That's how I get away with maindecking monastery ( as it's only good in certain matchups).

SillyMetalGAT
10-16-2006, 09:03 PM
I sideout a Basic Forest and two spell cards. I also, in fact side them in against Angel Stompy (stops Jitte from getting counters). These were one reason why I had them around.

Sad to say, I took them out because Combo and Aggro is everywhere now. I usually side Monasteries in versus the mirror and any Midgame/Aggro-Control mirror. I run Jotun Grunt now... *sigh, I really do miss them.

Maybe its cuz im a noob, but I dont see how Nantuko Monestary stops Jitte?

NoGameShow
10-16-2006, 09:04 PM
Maybe its cuz im a noob, but I dont see how Nantuko Monestary stops Jitte?


Only thing I can think of is that when animated the Monastery has first strike but that still won't always stop jitte.

Citrus-God
10-17-2006, 05:59 PM
Basic forest, right. Sorry, I think I'm a tad biased because of how little I see wasteland. Because of that I run 2 basic islands, but no other basics. That's how I get away with maindecking monastery ( as it's only good in certain matchups).

I run the deck with 2 Island and 1 Forest. I dont maindeck my Monasteries, unless it's going to fully benefit me. Sad to say, my metagame is infested with Vial Goblins, and they run Wasteland. But theres also decks like The Rock, Angel Stompy, and The Mirror. Those were my reasons for the inclusions of Monastery in my Sideboard.

elendil_es
10-18-2006, 10:22 AM
Hi all,

On a recent legacy tournament (of course) I was burned (again) by sligh. With four price of progress MD. The 1st match is very difficult. But the second... It's so difficult too! I side worships and an Aegis of Honor as my only way to survive siding out the enforcers and mages... Do you tink that the BeB are strong enough? (they side tormod's and ReB).

This is my sideboard at the moment:

1 Meddlin Mage (3 MD)
2 Naturalize
3 Jötun Grunt
2 Worships
1 Aegis of Honor (I really hate that deck):mad:
2 Armageddon
1 Pithing Needle (2 MD)
3 Hail Storm

On the other side, what cards from time spiral do you think fit in the deck, MD or SB?

Solpugid
10-18-2006, 09:59 PM
Aegis of honor is brutal against burn, but it's so situational. Though slow (and also situational), ivory mask does a good job of beating burn as well. Just counter enough to stay above about 10 life (so flame rift and flamebreak can't kill you quickly) and then drop a mask. Chances are if they run anarchy in the board, they won't bring it in against your 2 or less white permanents (though they may side it expecting worship...but you can counter it, right?).

I'm not sure what else mask could be sided in against. It's decent against black discard, but slow enough for it not to matter. It prevents tendrils or brain freeze from hitting you, but is usually only a slight speed bump. I don't know, you decide.

As another thought, I know how a lot of people on this board have a problem with 2/2s for 2, but I can't help but want plaxmanta in this deck. He's a counterspell at some times, a combat trick at others, and at the very least he can be played at the end of your opponent's turn if you don't need to counter or swords anything. I think I just love his random ability to keep bears alive, and then swing for 2.

Time spiral doesn't seem to have a lot of good stuff in it for this deck. Flagstones is good if you're running basic plains, though.

Obfuscate Freely
10-19-2006, 11:20 AM
Hi all,

On a recent legacy tournament (of course) I was burned (again) by sligh. With four price of progress MD. The 1st match is very difficult. But the second... It's so difficult too! I side worships and an Aegis of Honor as my only way to survive siding out the enforcers and mages... Do you tink that the BeB are strong enough? (they side tormod's and ReB).

You should be able to beat Burn pretty easily without resorting to narrow sideboard cards. How close have the games been? Burn is really just a bad combo deck that can't fall back on storm to get around counters.

When you're playing against Burn, you should be spending the early turns digging for counters and getting to threshold. He'll be throwing burn spells at you, but the first 5 or 6 of them are irrelevent. Feel free to Daze something, especially a 2nd-turn Flame Rift or PoP, since Daze won't always be useful later. You may also want to counter something if it would help you get to threshold faster. The nice thing about playing agaisnt Burn is that it doesn't really matter what or when you counterspell, since every card in the deck does the same thing. Just remember that your primary goal should be to set up a clock with counter backup.

If your hand is slow or creature heavy, tossing out a pre-threshed Werebear can be a good idea. If he fries it, then you've successfully "countered" another burn spell.

Flamebreaks and Crypts can be problematic since they draw out the game (Burn does have inevitability). Flamebreaks are easy to counter, but Crypts are more annoying. Normally I'd suggest sideboarding out Pithing Needles, but if you know he's bringing in Crypt, keeping them in may be correct.

Obviously, you want to pay attention to your life total. Burn will usually goldfish on turn 4 or 5, I guess (when it isn't losing to its own inconsistency), so be prepared for a "big" turn once you drop below 7 or so. He'll have a few cards left, and will throw them all at you in the hopes that enough of them resolve to kill you. Since you've been holding counters, they won't be enough, and then he'll be stuck in topdeck mode while you beat with creatures and use your far superior draw engine to find more counters. There is usually another little skirmish the turn before you kill him, which is when you can lose if you were unable to find more counters, but generally you should be able to deal with the 2 or 3 spells he topdecked.

Note that if you have a threshed Werebear in play, Swords to Plowshares is a relevant card. Gaining 4 life will trade with at least one of his cards, so it is essentially another counterspell, although it has the drawback of hurting your clock.

Blue Blasts are absolutely amazing in this matchup, since they act as additional (and super-efficient) counterspells. They also double as effective Goblin hate, so I'd go overboard on them before using narrow cards like Aegis of Honor.

elendil_es
10-19-2006, 12:44 PM
First, thanks for all your thoughts. I have to say that the matchup is tougher than burn because has some of the sligh cards inside (wastelands, jackals, scroll, lavamancer). So the pithings are very useful. In that matchup I stabilize at 4-6 life, and he topdecks before I kill him. But this is a particular deck. I'm asking for a red solution. Burn-Sligh-Goblins solution. The Hail Storms seems amazing to me vs goblins. But the worships seems too mana expensive... I side them only vs red decks.

Sligh: -3 meddling mage -2 Mystic Enforcer, +1 pithing +2 worship +1 aegis of honor +1 jotun grunt
goblins: -3 meddling mage -2 Mystic enforcer -1 EE, +1 pithing +2 worship +3 hail storm.

Would you take out the worships and aegis for 3 BeB? Or something more for the fourth BeB?

jazzykat
10-19-2006, 03:44 PM
If you are worried about burn you can put 2 (maybe 3 if you are really worried) Misdirections in the SB. They can even be used as FOW's 5&6 in a control match up, can redirect burn to their grill or their creatures. It also has the nasty habit of occaisionally sending hymn to tourachs back at your oppoent, and redirecting all sorts of creature kill and random jank.

My meta is quite janky and the MisD has won me a lot of games.

Obfuscate Freely
10-19-2006, 04:41 PM
First, thanks for all your thoughts. I have to say that the matchup is tougher than burn because has some of the sligh cards inside (wastelands, jackals, scroll, lavamancer). So the pithings are very useful. In that matchup I stabilize at 4-6 life, and he topdecks before I kill him. But this is a particular deck. I'm asking for a red solution. Burn-Sligh-Goblins solution.
Classic Pup Sligh, eh? That deck should be even easier to beat, since he relies on creatures to do at least some of the damage, but Blue Blasts would still be nice to have. Take out the Worships and Aegis for them, since trading cards efficiently will let you answer his opening hand and then simply outdraw him in the midgame.

Another card that would be absolutely busted against Pup Sligh is Temple Acolyte. It's basically a strictly-better Bottle Gnomes, which have been hosing Jackal Pups since they both saw print. Acolyte is even decent against straight Burn, but it isn't amazing against Goblins, so Blue Blast is likely still the way to go.

Bardo
10-19-2006, 05:49 PM
Blue Blasts are absolutely amazing in this matchup, since they act as additional (and super-efficient) counterspells. They also double as effective Goblin hate, so I'd go overboard on them before using narrow cards like Aegis of Honor.

Well said (and the rest). I never take my version of Thresh out with any less than 4 Blue Blasts for the inevitable Sligh, Burn and Goblins match. And BEB/Hydroblast is exceedingly strong against all of these decks. Hell, I've even sided them in to have more blue spells against IGGy and where StP would be crap.


Note that if you have a threshed Werebear in play, Swords to Plowshares is a relevant card. Gaining 4 life will trade with at least one of his cards, so it is essentially another counterspell, although it has the drawback of hurting your clock.

I had to resort to this play the last time I played against burn in a tourney and went on to win the game because of it. Luckily, I had two threshed Mongeese on the board to seal the deal the turn after I would have died if not for StP'ing my Werebear.

Going back to last week...


Since when does the "Bardo Version" run 17 lands and 4 Predict?

Well the 17 vs 18 lands is more of personal preference than anything else. I'd rather have a little too much land than too little since you can use your skill to play out of mana floods but can't do shit when you're stuck on one land.

Also, from experience, you take less mulligans with 18 land vs 17 land.

As for Predict, yeah, I was reaching there--I don't care for that card at all. Otherwise the first place DFD deck is mine with some minor tweaks

Off my list:
-1 EE
+1 Pithing Needle

-1 Meddling Mage
+1 Enforcer

-1 Mental Note
-1 Daze
-1 Serum Visions
-1 land
+4 Predict

The Predicts aside, Bennett's list is the I've been posting since the spring.

A little bit more on the Meddling Mage debate, since it just kinda died without resolution.


[re: Meddling Mage] None of this matters. We're talking about the maindeck, which means game one.

Well an obvious benefit of using Mage in the maindeck is to free up room in your sideboard. But I like Mr. Nightmare's comparison to Pithing Needle. Without testing it, or taking the word of others, Pithing Needle looks like a sideboard card at best. But when you run it in the maindeck, it does some amazing things and I believe we're all running them now.

I remember being dismissive of the value of the Needle when it was first spoiled but was slowly won over after testing it in the sideboard, and then I saw many people playing it in the maindeck and though "that can't be right..." But it was.

I had the same reservations about Meddling Mage being a maindeck card as well, but was eventually won over--due to its amazing versatility--and it even swings and blocks (unlike Needle). The thing about Mage isn't the big and game-breaking stuff it does (naming High Tide against Solidarity or Tendrils against IGGy Pop). It's the sheer versatility of it.

I remember playing against something almost identical to Chang's U/G Madness list a few months ago and by turn 3 I had a Needle on 'Moeba and Magi on Wild Mongrel and Arrogant Wurm. Game. Or being able to name Fireblast or PoP against Slight/Burn. But it's a difficult card to use optimally and is definitely the most skill-testing card the deck runs. Which is another reason I like it. That and it conserves your counters and removal for other threats and strands powerful and dead cards in your opponent's hand.

That's pretty much what I want to say about Meddling Mage: run it, don't run it. Apparently it doesn't seem to matter.


Time spiral doesn't seem to have a lot of good stuff in it for this deck. Flagstones is good if you're running basic plains, though.

So, you're running (essentially) 2 basic Plains in the deck? That just can't be right. Is that for Armageddon? Flagstones seem "cool but bad," like a ton of other cards that don't fit.

But really, I started this post because I wanted to debate Jotun Grunt vs. Loaming Shaman. I don't think this has been discussed here yet.

Each of the SCG DFD IV (Day 1) Top 8 decks ran one or the other.

For those who don't know.

Loaming Shaman
2G
When Loaming Shaman comes into play, target player shuffles any number of target cards from his or her graveyard into his or her library.
3/2

It's kind of like a Tormod's Crypt with legs that leaves behind a 3/2 body. Seems excellent-ish, along with Jotun Grunt--but you don't want to run both.

Thoughts?

Solpugid
10-19-2006, 06:17 PM
No Bardo, what I meant was that flagstones could replace a maindeck plains, not in addition to it. I understand how my comment was confusing though. I personally don't run basics besides islands, but with flagstones instead of plains you are more resistant to armageddon (like you said) and no less vulnerable to wasteland (if they waste it, get a tundra...yay!).

kicks_422
10-19-2006, 06:24 PM
You can't fetch a Flagstones though, which could be an issue...

Bardo
10-19-2006, 06:26 PM
It seems like the "gravy play" of Geddon + Flagstones doesn't compensate for the general vulnerability of Blood Moon, Back to Basics and Price of Progress. Not to mention, when you drop 'Geddon, you should be winning in short order anyway.

And, you know, if your opponent Wastes your Flagstones, and then you fetch a Tundra, you're gonna feel kinda dumb when they Waste your Tundra. And then with Crucible... Well, it just doesn't seem worth it. Though I like the art, FWIW.

Adan
10-20-2006, 06:50 AM
But really, I started this post because I wanted to debate Jotun Grunt vs. Loaming Shaman. I don't think this has been discussed here yet.

Each of the SCG DFD IV (Day 1) Top 8 decks ran one or the other.

For those who don't know.

Loaming Shaman
2G
When Loaming Shaman comes into play, target player shuffles any number of target cards from his or her graveyard into his or her library.
3/2

It's kind of like a Tormod's Crypt with legs that leaves behind a 3/2 body. Seems excellent-ish, along with Jotun Grunt--but you don't want to run both.

Thoughts?

I think you are right,it's really a question which of those cards is suprior to the other.

The advantages of both of them: They can't be shut down by Pithing Needle.

Now,let's see:

Jotun Grunt:

Advantages:

- Undercosted beater, 2 Mana 4/4.
- He is a beater who's independable of Threshold
- NQGr needs 2 burnspells to handle him,so he's also a kind of Hymn to Tourach.
- NQGw needs Swords to Plowshares. Meddling MAge onto Swords to Plowshares will make Jotun Grunt nearly invincible.
- He Will definetley pull a counter out of the opponents hand.

Disadvantages:

- He can also be shut down by StoP/Removal before he removes anything.

Loaming Shaman:

Advantages:

- He "removes" the Opponents Graveyard instantly as he resolves.

Disadvantages:

- compared with Jotun Grunt,he's NOT a beater. Against NQGr he could be chumped by Burning Tree Shaman for example.

- The opponent could still recover with Mental Notes. Jotun Grunt would contineously "remove" the cards,Loaming Shaman just once.

Imo Jotun Grunt is superior to Loaming Shaman. So if you play NQGw,throw in Jotun Grunt,when you are playing NQGr,you are forced to play Loaming Shaman.

Elf_Ascetic
10-20-2006, 07:28 AM
Jotun Grunt:

Advantages:

- Undercosted beater, 2 Mana 4/4.
- He is a beater who's independable of Threshold
- NQGr needs 2 burnspells to handle him,so he's also a kind of Hymn to Tourach.
- NQGw needs Swords to Plowshares. Meddling MAge onto Swords to Plowshares will make Jotun Grunt nearly invincible.
- He Will definetley pull a counter out of the opponents hand.

Disadvantages:

- He can also be shut down by StoP/Removal before he removes anything.

Loaming Shaman:

Advantages:

- He "removes" the Opponents Graveyard instantly as he resolves.

Disadvantages:

- compared with Jotun Grunt,he's NOT a beater. Against NQGr he could be chumped by Burning Tree Shaman for example.

- The opponent could still recover with Mental Notes. Jotun Grunt would contineously "remove" the cards,Loaming Shaman just once.

Imo Jotun Grunt is superior to Loaming Shaman. So if you play NQGw,throw in Jotun Grunt,when you are playing NQGr,you are forced to play Loaming Shaman.

Loaming Shaman dies to opposing grunts/werebears, were the Grunt drags them with him. The Grunt allows you to enhance your deck (whenever you got 7+, start reshuffling threats/EE). The last fact has been crucial for me in a couple of mirrors. Sure, loaming shaman does that as well, but only once, and it doesn't allow you to wreck the opponent's grave as well.

Bardo
10-20-2006, 12:42 PM
Loaming Shaman dies to opposing grunts/werebears, were the Grunt drags them with him. The Grunt allows you to enhance your deck (whenever you got 7+, start reshuffling threats/EE). The last fact has been crucial for me in a couple of mirrors. Sure, loaming shaman does that as well, but only once, and it doesn't allow you to wreck the opponent's grave as well.

As soon as LS does his thing, Werebear, Mongoose and Enforcer are going to look pretty pathetic. My point being that a 3/2 is going to trump 1/1s for a few turns.

A lot of times, Grunt is just going to trade with Werebear, since he takes a few turns to get going if he comes any later than turn 5 or 6 or so. Grunt also gives you time to find an answer (StP, EE). Shaman gives you no such opportunity. They both seem really good.

We should probably also compare Tormod's Crypt with this equation.

Solpugid
10-20-2006, 01:44 PM
I like just running tormod's crypt myself. Its speed and power seem really key (though you sacrifice the "body" factor).

Between the two creatures, I like grunt a lot more. His lower cost and bigger body, to me, make up for the few turns needed to get him going.

Angel of Despair
10-20-2006, 03:16 PM
I haven't really had a chance to test with Grunt, but I have played against him. I know that he is wicked annoying. I like that Loaming Shaman doesn't die when there is nothing to remove. I also like that he hits right when he comes into play. it's hard for me to speculate which is better. I am going to test with both. Grunt may be a 2cc but do you really want to play him on turn 2 if there is only probably 2 cards in each graveyard?

Citrus-God
10-24-2006, 12:51 AM
I played in a tournament, and I would like to say, I would much rather have Loaming Shaman over Grunt.

I was playing against RGSA, and somehow, he resolved a Masticore, and got the engine going with Genesis recursion. They got their engine going. I topdecked a Grunt, and took a deep breath. He played a Duplicant on his turn, and grabbed my Grunt before it did it's job.

... Anyways, I think we need a tool to combat Midgame decks, and I would also like to point out that Loaming Shaman is better than Grunt because it's instant speeed.

lillelassie
10-25-2006, 05:29 AM
Loaming shaman also serves the purpose of bringing back all YOUR cards from yard to library. This is especially good against forms of heavy control, where you might simply run out of threats and cards.

Elf_Ascetic
10-25-2006, 09:29 AM
Loaming shaman also serves the purpose of bringing back all YOUR cards from yard to library. This is especially good against forms of heavy control, where you might simply run out of threats and cards.

Jotun Grunt does that too. He can even do that AND remove the opposing graveyard. But, you don't even want to sideboard a Shaman vs control... Nor Grunt..

Bane of the Living
10-25-2006, 08:38 PM
... Anyways, I think we need a tool to combat Midgame decks, and I would also like to point out that Loaming Shaman is better than Grunt because it's instant speeed.

No it's not instant speeed. Its a CIP triggered ability.

I think Id need to side with Grunt. Though he can be killed before his job is achieved thats a removal spell that didnt hit a Meddling Mage or a Werebear. If the opponent doesnt have removal they're in much more trouble because of the continual effect. Keep in mind +1/+2 is much better against several decks including the red splash mirror. He dominates the combat zone. He costs one less too, which is crucial when holding Counterspells or when fighting mana screw.

Another reason he gets the nod is because Multiple Grunts are effective. The opponent will need more removal for each one or still crumble. Multiple Shamans shouldnt be played in conjunction because their yard effect wont be so large. Playing one then playing the other next turn to remove 1-2 cards isnt that great. Wheras Grunt x2 is game over. You can apply more pressure this way. Adding more damage to the board.

Does it bother anyone that you'd be recycling their cards back into the deck as well? That means you'll see all those FoW's and StP's again. With thresh's card draw and lib manipulation its possible your putting yourself through the pain of those cards a second or even third time.

Solpugid
10-25-2006, 10:08 PM
What's cool about grunt is that (if needed) he can first take care of my opponent's yard, and then turn his sights on mine. I can cycle every card (or at least most) from my opponent's graveyard into his deck (fetchlands and all) but I can choose only the best cards to put back into mine. In this way I can gain the potential for card quality advantage down the road in addition to screwing a graveyard and beating for 4.

Solpugid
10-29-2006, 09:04 PM
Sorry to double post, but discussion seems to have halted and I'd like to inquire something on this thread. I know the mental note vs. predict vs. portent debate has been extensive, but I wanted to ask all of your opinions: does this deck need actual card advantage?

For a while I've wanted to introduce mental note back into the deck, but I love what portent does for me. So I started considering dropping predict for mental note instead. Since that would eliminate all "draw 2" opportunities from my deck, I was wondering if any of you thought the additional speed was worth it.

Citrus-God
10-30-2006, 02:13 AM
Sorry to double post, but discussion seems to have halted and I'd like to inquire something on this thread. I know the mental note vs. predict vs. portent debate has been extensive, but I wanted to ask all of your opinions: does this deck need actual card advantage?

For a while I've wanted to introduce mental note back into the deck, but I love what portent does for me. So I started considering dropping predict for mental note instead. Since that would eliminate all "draw 2" opportunities from my deck, I was wondering if any of you thought the additional speed was worth it.

This deck doesnt need card advantage really. What it really want's is card quality. I mean, we can all agree Portent is so muc better than Predict and Mental Note, right? Mental Note and/or Predict should be added in after Portent. Look at Mr. Nightmare and the Hatfield brother's list.

Mental Note + Portent = Yummy
Predict + Portent = Yummy
Predict + no Portent = shit
Mental Note + no Portent = No momentum

Card Advantage is important, but I think what makes Predict good right now is the fact it burns a card, and draws you two. You are digging 3 cards deeper, and you thinned your deck by 3 cards. Theres a reason why Predict is better than AK.

Mental Note and Predict is more of a personal preference really. The way you play the decks is really based on playskill and what your comfortable with. Everything in the format right now can easily go 50-50 against eachother, so I recommend that you play with what makes you feel more comfortable piloting with the least amount of errors.

Adan
11-01-2006, 06:39 AM
Ah,the discussion about the cantrips...

Well,Portent IS good. It shows you up to 5 cards until the Mainphase of the next turn(When you play it,3,upkeep draw 4th and in the Drawphase of the next Turn the 5th card).

Mental Note vs. Predict is a littlebit more difficult.

In the End,both are quite Similar.

Mental Note mills 2 Card and draws one,then goes to the grave.

3 in the grave,1 drawn

Predict mills one Card,draws 2 cards an then goes to the grave.

2 in the grave,2 cards drawn

But the 1 more card Predict draws is a card that will hit the board as a creature,a land or as a solution like Needle,Worship. Or it's a cantrip,which will dig deeper into teh deck,helping to find the solutions.

Virually Predict generates more Cardadvantage than Mental Note. Plus,Mental Note doesn't support the Cardquality. It's only good to dispose the crap you put onto the top of your library with Brainstorm.

Portent und Serum Visions can just shuffle/put the crap away.

In my opinion,3 Predicts will be fine. Mental Note is just something for people that like to play it very aggressive.

edit: I hope you understand what I mean...my english still has to improve xD

Bardo
11-01-2006, 01:08 PM
Predict does not unconditionally draw you 2 cards. I don't understand why people keep saying this. Cheating aside, you need: 1) extraordinary luck, 2) set-up. Luck is what it is, so it's hard to comment on. As for set-up, you need your opponent to cast M/E Tutor while you have Predict in hand and the mana available, or set up something junky on the top of your library with the other drawers to dredge it away for the two cards below it. This is made worse when you consider the amount of time and mana you're spending when the right play might just be casting Serum Visions and spending your mana on Werebear instead. Also, Predict is awfully weak as a mid-game topdeck when you have no other drawers in hand (which is likely, since you've already cast those spells). The real deal-breaker, for me, is the 2 mana casting cost. That's the reason I dropped AK from this deck so long ago.

AnwarA101
11-01-2006, 02:35 PM
Predict does not unconditionally draw you 2 cards. I don't understand why people keep saying this. Cheating aside, you need: 1) extraordinary luck, 2) set-up. Luck is what it is, so it's hard to comment on. As for set-up, you need your opponent to cast M/E Tutor while you have Predict in hand and the mana available, or set up something junky on the top of your library with the other drawers to dredge it away for the two cards below it. This is made worse when you consider the amount of time and mana you're spending when the right play might just be casting Serum Visions and spending your mana on Werebear instead. Also, Predict is awfully weak as a mid-game topdeck when you have no other drawers in hand (which is likely, since you've already cast those spells). The real deal-breaker, for me, is the 2 mana casting cost. That's the reason I dropped AK from this deck so long ago.

I don't want to dredge up the old Predict vs. Mental Note debate, but don't you worry because you have a deck with no real card advantage? I mean even the versions with Predict are really thin on card advantage, but without it how do you compete with decks that have more card advantage than you ? Control decks looks like a disaster and Goblins has to be terrible since you are basically limited to 1 card per turn. Having less card selection spells against Solidarity can't be a good thing? I'm not sure how you compete with these decks, but I would be interested in finding out.

Bane of the Living
11-01-2006, 10:17 PM
I don't want to dredge up the old Predict vs. Mental Note debate, but don't you worry because you have a deck with no real card advantage? I mean even the versions with Predict are really thin on card advantage, but without it how do you compete with decks that have more card advantage than you ? Control decks looks like a disaster and Goblins has to be terrible since you are basically limited to 1 card per turn. Having less card selection spells against Solidarity can't be a good thing? I'm not sure how you compete with these decks, but I would be interested in finding out.

Arent you an adept? Why in the world are you talking like the deck has a problem? Straight control is bad for the deck but fortunately the only decks remotely like that are Landstill and Truffle Shuffle. There arent any other control decks being heavily played. Goblins has Ringleader and you dont, thats just the way it goes. You cant afford to play a high casting cost card that just draws cards, you need to keep mana open for counters, creatures, or removal. Spending a turn on drawing cards is a bad idea. The deck already has a great matchup against Solidarity, I dont see why your worried about card selection. The only deck card is StP.

Im shocked to see no discussion for Krosan Grip. The card is absurd at destroying Tormod's Crypt. Everyone waits till the best moment to crypt you but when you cast Grip eot they cant even sac crpyt in response to rfg the 3-5 cards or so that are in there. Its better than Naturalize because you'd be waiting till turn 3 to play Naturalize around Daze, or Nat just gets countered. In this format everyone waits till its time to respond by vialing in a creature or activating deed. All those little toys have a liability for letting them sit on the table now. Think about it.

AnwarA101
11-01-2006, 10:30 PM
Arent you an adept? Why in the world are you talking like the deck has a problem? Straight control is bad for the deck but fortunately the only decks remotely like that are Landstill and Truffle Shuffle. There arent any other control decks being heavily played. Goblins has Ringleader and you dont, thats just the way it goes. You cant afford to play a high casting cost card that just draws cards, you need to keep mana open for counters, creatures, or removal. Spending a turn on drawing cards is a bad idea. The deck already has a great matchup against Solidarity, I dont see why your worried about card selection. The only deck card is StP.


Maybe I worded my response poorly. My point was when you play this deck without any type of card advantage spell you are more likely to run out of cards.

You have to answer your opponents threats and you are likely to run out of answers if you have no card advantage. Even with Predict, I feel the deck sometimes is low on cards, but without Predict I'm not sure how I would answer threats and still have cards in my hand. I was curious how Bardo did with no card advantage.

Citrus-God
11-01-2006, 10:43 PM
Predict does not unconditionally draw you 2 cards. I don't understand why people keep saying this. Cheating aside, you need: 1) extraordinary luck, 2) set-up. Luck is what it is, so it's hard to comment on. As for set-up, you need your opponent to cast M/E Tutor while you have Predict in hand and the mana available, or set up something junky on the top of your library with the other drawers to dredge it away for the two cards below it. This is made worse when you consider the amount of time and mana you're spending when the right play might just be casting Serum Visions and spending your mana on Werebear instead. Also, Predict is awfully weak as a mid-game topdeck when you have no other drawers in hand (which is likely, since you've already cast those spells). The real deal-breaker, for me, is the 2 mana casting cost. That's the reason I dropped AK from this deck so long ago.

Theres a reason why when Predict is being ran in a deck, the deck has 12 set-up cards. With 12, you aim in every direction of your deck so you can use those Predicts now, or later. And I must disagree with you if you say Predict is a weak midgame topdeck, because you probably saved a cantrip in your hand while you were busy casting business spells around early game, and when you play a Cantrip, your priorities are to find other Cantrips, as well as the standard Answers and Threats. You also shouldnt mind the fact you'll be investing a lot of mana on just casting a 1cc Cantrip, and a Predict, because around midgame, you should have at least 6 lands out. That's more than enough mana to draw, and play men. The Predict variants play differently from the Mental Note versions. We dont cast men early game to midgame unless it's an answer in the Red Zone, we solve them through counters and Removal from the help of our cantrips.

But anyways, I dont want you to think that I think negatively of Mental Note, because I do run Mental Note, but it's just that I also run Predict as well, and I also dont want you to think Predict is bad. I would do my best to persuade you the strangths of the Predict builds, without putting down Mental Note. I know both Cantrips have their flaws, but the advantages fo what they can do is what makes them great. Predict must be set-up, and Mental Note can kill card quality, but in return, Mental Note makes the quality of your Creatures much better earlier in the game than it was suppose to be, and Predict refills your hand of Cantrips, Answers, and Threats.

Solpugid
11-05-2006, 11:42 AM
Has anyone tried out stifle in the pithing needle/explosives/meddling mage/worship slot yet? I really like running worship, but my area has a lot of decks running maindeck artifact and enchantment removal, and I like giving them dead cards. Stifle does so many things to help this deck out, so I was wondering if any of you had success with it. It's especially good against goblins, which I've found to be one of my harder matchups (if they get a good hand).

the_show
11-06-2006, 03:24 AM
Stifle should be solid if you're playing in a meta full of tier one decks. You have numerous target for Vial Gobs ie. Wasteland, Lackey, Matron, Incinerator, and especially Ringleader. Stifle is hot against the better combo decks in legacy as well (Iggy Pop and Solidarity). So i feel it deserves testing, maybe a 3-of in the SB.

On a completely unrelated subject, has anyone tested Peek as a possible cantrip for Thresh? I personally like it best in the mirror and combo matchups. Having additional information about my opponents unknowns gives me a slight edge when faced with tough decisions. For instance if i'm playing against the mirror and playing first, I like to Peek at the end of my opponents turn. I want to know if he's holding Force of will, StP, Daze, EE, or how his hand is going to interact with mine and decide how i want to proceed on my next turn. Peek has good stand alone value in that it doesn't need another card to help set it up and combos well with meddling mage. I run Peek in my version and have never been disappointed when i drew it. Also i play a slightly higher number of cantrips than most builds.

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Vision
3 Mental Note
3 Peek

Mental Not is probably the weakest link and could get replaced with Portent. Further testing will need to be done before i make the switch.

Citrus-God
11-06-2006, 05:55 PM
Stifle should be solid if you're playing in a meta full of tier one decks. You have numerous target for Vial Gobs ie. Wasteland, Lackey, Matron, Incinerator, and especially Ringleader. Stifle is hot against the better combo decks in legacy as well (Iggy Pop and Solidarity). So i feel it deserves testing, maybe a 3-of in the SB.

On a completely unrelated subject, has anyone tested Peek as a possible cantrip for Thresh? I personally like it best in the mirror and combo matchups. Having additional information about my opponents unknowns gives me a slight edge when faced with tough decisions. For instance if i'm playing against the mirror and playing first, I like to Peek at the end of my opponents turn. I want to know if he's holding Force of will, StP, Daze, EE, or how his hand is going to interact with mine and decide how i want to proceed on my next turn. Peek has good stand alone value in that it doesn't need another card to help set it up and combos well with meddling mage. I run Peek in my version and have never been disappointed when i drew it. Also i play a slightly higher number of cantrips than most builds.

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Vision
3 Mental Note
3 Peek

Mental Not is probably the weakest link and could get replaced with Portent. Further testing will need to be done before i make the switch.

Why not cut Peek for Portent? If you want, you can run 4 BS, 4 SV, 3 Portent, and 3 Predict. But then again, Peek provieds tons of info, and synergizes with MM. If you dont like Mental Note, leave it there. You need a clock right after you get information from Peek. It makes Mage shine because ti can slow your opponent down, and speed you up.

Also, has anyone here cut Mages yet? I have, and I have a build to show how proud I am...


// Lands 18
2 Nantuko Monastery
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra


// Creatures 11
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
3 Mystic Enforcer


// Spells 31
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Portent
3 Mental Note
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Pithing Needle


// Sideboard 15
1 Pithing Needle
1 Nantuko Monastery
1 Counterspell
3 Stifle
3 Hydroblast
3 Krosan Grip
3 Jotun Grunt


I've been playing this for 3 weeks, and I'm in love with it. It's still got nothing on Hatfield Thresh, but it does so well against decks like Goblins. I admit, card advantage is good versus Goblins, but going towards the midgame role is even better if it all starts on Turn 2. Monasteries are savage beaters. I won the mirror with this deck so often. MM is weak. I usually ignore it, and just keep going. They may have Needle more Monastery, but games 2 just means they have to leave a dead card in there just to shut down a few men who double as generic lands, as I board in things like Grunt. Do the math; they have terrible topdecks just to keep Monasteries at bay, while I take advantage of this and go all out. They'll probably board out more Card Draw/Utility/Men/Removal just to shut it down.

kabal
11-06-2006, 06:19 PM
Peek provieds tons of info, and synergizes with MM.

How again is it synergic with Mental Note?



Also, has anyone here cut Mages yet?

Nope, they are extremely valuable against most of the field.

GreenOne
11-06-2006, 08:03 PM
How again is it synergic with Mental Note?


It's not MN, Mental Note, it's MM, Meddling Mage. And peek is obviously synergic with Meddling Mage :smile:

Solpugid
11-06-2006, 09:55 PM
I still haven't decided to drop mage all together (he's in my board) but I don't think he's maindeck worthy, simply from my testing.

Anti~American, I like your maindeck monasteries, they've been great for me too. My build seems similar to yours except that I face more mid-range aggro decks (angel stompy and such) so I've dropped mental note for predict.

One question though. If your metagame has a good deal of goblins, have you had problems with wasteland (since you don't run basics)?

Citrus-God
11-06-2006, 10:53 PM
I still haven't decided to drop mage all together (he's in my board) but I don't think he's maindeck worthy, simply from my testing.

Anti~American, I like your maindeck monasteries, they've been great for me too. My build seems similar to yours except that I face more mid-range aggro decks (angel stompy and such) so I've dropped mental note for predict.

One question though. If your metagame has a good deal of goblins, have you had problems with wasteland (since you don't run basics)?

Monasteries divert them from hitting one of your Duals. I realize this is an awful philosophy, but it works.

Also, I play against tons of Angel Stompy. I usually play Hatfield Thresh w/ Monasteries on the Side. I usually run Predicts because it suits my style more, it's just that, that build is what my team's working on. We sorta fell in love with the Mental Note/European style Thresh. Like heres on the builds we built our skeleton off of...


// Lands 17
3 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Island


// Creatures 8
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear


// Spells 35
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Predict
4 Mental Note
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
2 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Pithing Needle


// Sideboard 15
3 Mystic Enforcer
4 Tivadar's Crusade
2 Hydroblast
1 Stifle
2 Naturalize
3 Tormod's Crypt


This was the deck that Top 8 the Euro 1.5 Worlds.

Adan
11-07-2006, 08:25 AM
Ah,I recorgnize that Build. It was placed Top8 in Aschaffenburg here in Germany.

And imo it's just a very crappy build. The build ran a white Splash ONLY for Swords to Plowshares and there were no Meddling Mages or Mystic Enforcers.

Even IF you want to play a aggressive version,I would still suggest that you play a build similar to Mr. Nightmares. My build looks like this. Sometimes I swap the Predicts with Mental Notes. They are quite solid,even though they don't support CQ.

// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [RAV] Forest (1)
2 [RAV] Island (1)
1 [RAV] Plains (1)
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [A] Tropical Island
4 [B] Tundra

// Creatures
1 [OD] Mystic Enforcer
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [OD] Werebear
4 [PS] Meddling Mage

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [IA] Portent
3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
2 [MM] Counterspell
4 [FD] Serum Visions
3 [OD] Predict / 3 [JU] Mental Note - depends on your style or mood :P

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [OD] Mystic Enforcer
SB: 2 [US] Worship
SB: 3 [A] Armageddon
SB: 3 [ON] Naturalize
SB: 3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast

I'm thinking about something like this. maybe you could add Engineered Explosives. But they are not that popular here in Germany.

Citrus-God
11-07-2006, 09:46 AM
Ah,I recorgnize that Build. It was placed Top8 in Aschaffenburg here in Germany.

And imo it's just a very crappy build. The build ran a white Splash ONLY for Swords to Plowshares and there were no Meddling Mages or Mystic Enforcers.

Even IF you want to play a aggressive version,I would still suggest that you play a build similar to Mr. Nightmares. My build looks like this. Sometimes I swap the Predicts with Mental Notes. They are quite solid,even though they don't support CQ.

// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [RAV] Forest (1)
2 [RAV] Island (1)
1 [RAV] Plains (1)
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [A] Tropical Island
4 [b] Tundra

// Creatures
1 [OD] Mystic Enforcer
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [OD] Werebear
4 [PS] Meddling Mage

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [b] Swords to Plowshares
4 [IA] Portent
3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
2 [MM] Counterspell
4 [FD] Serum Visions
3 [OD] Predict / 3 [JU] Mental Note - depends on your style or mood :P

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [OD] Mystic Enforcer
SB: 2 [US] Worship
SB: 3 [A] Armageddon
SB: 3 [ON] Naturalize
SB: 3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 3 [b] Blue Elemental Blast

I'm thinking about something like this. maybe you could add Engineered Explosives. But they are not that popular here in Germany.

I do run that build. I started playing that before Mr. Nightmare got 2nd at TML. My personal preferences make the deck look a little different, because I cut some random 1-ofs, and I had 17 Lands since I had 11 1cc Cantrips.


// Lands 17
3 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
2 Island


// Creatures 12
4 Meddling Mage
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear


// Spells 31
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Portent
3 Mental Note
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Pithing Needle
2 Stifle


// Sideboard 15
1 Stifle
1 Pithing Needle
3 Krosan Grip
3 Hydroblast
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Mystic Enforcer
2 Engineered Explosive


That was my build...

Which reminds me. If you run 11 1cc Cantrips with Card Quality ensured, I know that you should go down to 17 Lands. I mean, chances are, you dont want that many lands in your opening hand. Now heres a new philosophy...

Cut a land, add a cantrip. That's my new arguement if people are going to run Mr. Nightmare's build. Bardo's and Summersberger can remain the same 18, because they dont have Portents, whereas, Mr. Nightmare's does, meaning it needs those cantrips, and more tools for it's control skeleton.

Solpugid
11-12-2006, 01:32 AM
Ok, so I've been playing around with cantrips a lot lately. I try to drop mental note and I miss the speed. I try to drop portent and I miss the selection (and "lock" you can put on your opponent). I try to drop predict and I miss the card advantage. If I ever try to drop brainstorm, I will quit Magic.

My point is I've never been happy. Two lists back, posted by Anti~American, I saw the combo of mental note and portent. I figured that maybe I could cut some other cards and run predict as well. How about this configuration:

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum visions
3 Portent
3 Mental note
2 Predict

It seems like it's the best of both/all worlds, but will it be too unreliable now? It does remain at a fairly normal 16 'trips though.

I also would like to start a new discussion: 4, 3, or 2 daze? I've always liked 3, but at that number I can't guarantee seeing them early (when they matter most). What do you think?

kicks_422
11-12-2006, 01:37 AM
Four Daze has been fine with me... It's not only used early, but also in mid-late game... Plus, it's always fun when someone hurls a 20-point fireball at your face and then you counter it with Daze... :tongue:

It can be avoided/milled with the cantrips and can be pitched to Force... So having late-game copies isn't that bad. I'd rather see one late-game than to not see one early.

Bardo
11-12-2006, 03:31 AM
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum visions
3 Portent
3 Mental note
2 Predict

While I can rationalize the odd 3- or 1-of, 2-ofs require a lot more convincing. Given this config, I'd rather just drop the 2 Predicts for +1 Note +1 Portent. 4-ofs require little convincing. With 2 Predicts, it'll show up as infrequently as a 2-of Fact or Fiction, which would just be better without bending over backwards.


It can be avoided/milled with the cantrips and can be pitched to Force... So having late-game copies isn't that bad. I'd rather see one late-game than to not see one early.

Exactly. I've spent a while tinkering with the Daze count and, pre-board anyhow, I don't think it makes good sense to run less than 4. Sure, it seems a little risky, but you want them early and often (which is the logical reason to run 4). As innocuous as the card seems, it's one of the secrets to the deck's power (i.e. the ability to develop your board and deploy threats while still maintaining your counter-shield). It packs an unusual amount of punch for a nickle common from a pretty dodgy set.

The counter that I find the least appealing is Counterspell. I'm considereing dropping that sucker outright.

Elf_Ascetic
11-12-2006, 07:26 AM
I also would like to start a new discussion: 4, 3, or 2 daze? I've always liked 3, but at that number I can't guarantee seeing them early (when they matter most). What do you think?

I think 3 is the way. Daze is lategame, well, a dead card. Thereby, playing 4 of them means cutting on your cantrips. Finding two Dazes in your openinghand isn't too great also: a lot of tempo loss.

With 3 you can daze your opponent plenty enough to let him think you always hold them, en therefor slowing him down.

With only 2 of them, you centainly can't guarantee seeing them early. Random daze's don't work very well.

Citrus-God
11-12-2006, 04:41 PM
Four Daze has been fine with me... It's not only used early, but also in mid-late game... Plus, it's always fun when someone hurls a 20-point fireball at your face and then you counter it with Daze... :tongue:

It can be avoided/milled with the cantrips and can be pitched to Force... So having late-game copies isn't that bad. I'd rather see one late-game than to not see one early.

Run 4 if you run Mental Note and Mages. Your clock is so friggin' fast, it will force your opponent to tap out just to either go-off or answer them. Otherwise play 3 if your unsure about that.

Solpugid: Pick one... Having either Mental Note or Predict can easily and drastically change the entire build of the deck. Mental Note needs Proactive answers, but sacrifices it's midgame advantage. Predict just needs more plays to cycle through the deck in order to find new threats, answers, and cantrips to keep the cycle going, alas, it has a midgame. Having the two dont do much unless you just want Threshold ASAP.

Solpugid
11-12-2006, 06:04 PM
I understand the disadvantage of running predict as a two-of, but I think this deck needs a mid-game. If mental note-induced speed fails to seal a win, the deck can always use a boost in cards to finish up the job. This is the only reason I'm reluctant to make them mental note #4 and portent #4.

Also, when going a very aggro route, I don't like seeing multiple dazes early. Yes, they're free, but they stunt your mana (and tempo) enough to weaken the aggressive gameplan. This is why I think I'll personally stay at 3.

Volt
11-12-2006, 07:10 PM
Drop the Dazes. Play Stifle instead.

Citrus-God
11-12-2006, 09:44 PM
I understand the disadvantage of running predict as a two-of, but I think this deck needs a mid-game. If mental note-induced speed fails to seal a win, the deck can always use a boost in cards to finish up the job. This is the only reason I'm reluctant to make them mental note #4 and portent #4.

Also, when going a very aggro route, I don't like seeing multiple dazes early. Yes, they're free, but they stunt your mana (and tempo) enough to weaken the aggressive gameplan. This is why I think I'll personally stay at 3.


Predicts dont give you a midgame if you run Mental Note. It immediately brakes the chain of cantrips, and your chain just stops. There goes your card quality.

Solpugid
11-12-2006, 10:50 PM
If I'm running 4 brainstorm, 4 serum visions, and 3 portent (in addition to 3 mental note) then I do have the ability to effectively run predict. My main question (for myself and others) is whether or not it's even worth it having those 2 predicts or if they should fill out my 1-cc cantrips instead.

Bardo
11-13-2006, 01:59 AM
Also, when going a very aggro route, I don't like seeing multiple dazes early. Yes, they're free, but they stunt your mana (and tempo) enough to weaken the aggressive gameplan. This is why I think I'll personally stay at 3.

I've Dazed a hell of a lot of stuff and the effect on your tempo isn't as bad as you'd think. The only exception is dropping an early-ish Enforcer, but that's generally a rare play anyway, so I wouldn't factor that too heavily.

Remember too that "tempo" isn't a static quantity--it's relative between you and your opponent's development. So Daze is much more devastating to their tempo than your's. They'll often spend their mana and their turn and you negate that even though you've spent your mana and your turn furthering your own plan.


Drop the Dazes. Play Stifle instead.

Anything I'd want to Stifle, I'd rather just counter instead (with a few notable exceptions that are still quite narrow). One of the thing's that makes Thresh such a good deck is its flexibility as a control deck that can beat down viciously. Stifle makes the deck into a more specialized (metagamed?) creation.

Like, sure you can Stifle an activation of Survival, Vial, or Piledriver's "I'm a monster" ability, but you're just postponing the inevitable--they'll do it again next turn.

Volt
11-13-2006, 10:48 AM
Anything I'd want to Stifle, I'd rather just counter instead (with a few notable exceptions that are still quite narrow). One of the thing's that makes Thresh such a good deck is its flexibility as a control deck that can beat down viciously. Stifle makes the deck into a more specialized (metagamed?) creation.

Like, sure you can Stifle an activation of Survival, Vial, or Piledriver's "I'm a monster" ability, but you're just postponing the inevitable--they'll do it again next turn.

I was about half-serious when I made the suggestion, although I have recently cut Daze from my CounterSliver build and haven't missed it a bit. CounterSliver and UGW Thresh are different decks, though, despite their similarities. Obviously, Daze is tried and true in Thresh decks.

That said, I do think you're downplaying the usefulness of Stifle, and perhaps exaggerating the usefulness of Daze a bit. Sure, Stifle isn't much good against Survival or Vial. Then again, neither is Daze, unless your opponent is silly enough to walk into it. Probably 75% of the usefulness of Daze comes from the fact that opponents are forced to play around it, which damages their own tempo. For that reason, it's probably okay to play just 3 of them.