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Peter_Rotten
08-11-2006, 04:16 PM
Burning Tog

Peter_Rotten’s version (60 cards) paired with Norm's version (61 cards)

Creatures 12.......................10
4 Nightscape Familiar.............4 Nightscape
4 Psychatog........................3 Psychatog
2 Flametongue Kavu..............3 FtK
2 Fire Imp

Counter 9........................8
4 Counterspell.....................4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will.....................4 FoW
1 Circular Logic

Kill 10...............................10
4 Fire/Ice...........................4 Fire/Ice
3 Diabolic Edict...................3 Edict
3 Burning Wish...................3 Burning Wish

Draw 6..............................10
4 Brainstorm........................4 Brainstorm
2 Fact or Fiction...................4 AK
.........................................2 Intuition

Land 23...............................23
4 Underground Sea.................4 USea
4 Volcanic Island................... 4 Volcs
2 Badlands...........................1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta....................4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand..................2 Flooded Strand
5 Island..............................6 Island
2 Swamp.............................2 Swamp

Key SB choices
1 Massacre (screw you Angel Stompy and Goblins with Plateaus)
1 Meltdown (screw you Affinity)
1 Perish (screw you Gro and stompy)
1 Deep Anal (wish for when playing against control)
1 Haunting Echoes (I win)
1 Chainer’s Edict (just in case)
4 Duress (for combo)
4 Engineered Plague (for Goblins)
4 Chalice of the Void (combo, Thresh, burn)

Explanations :
General Theory
Burning Tog is a control deck with a few aggro tendencies. It should be heavy on the creature kill and run at least 8 (preferably more) counterspells. It has a few paths to victory which include the following: Tog beats, FtK and Nightscape pings, or Haunting Echoes. It hopes to Burning Wish for Teh Stupidity which will likely swing the game in its favor. My version has traditionally been light on draw which, of course, is a debatable choice.

General Strategy
Survive early turns by pinpoint killing or countering relevant threats. Then cast something swingy like an FtK or Burning Wish for a board sweeper or game-breaker. Find the swingy-ness with Brainstorm and then later FoF. 2 for 1 your opponent as much as possible.

Turn two is often a complicated turn for you. Do you cast Nightscape? Leave counter mana open? Wish for a target so powerful that you don’t care if you telegraph it? Steal a turn with Ice? Of course, the answers to those questions depend on the other side of the table.

The Core: (Don’t mess with this)
4 Nightscape - This guy makes your spells cheaper! A Helm of Awakening that only affects you, swings, and blocks with regeneration! Opponents will start to treat him as if he is wearing a big KoS sign on his back. If for some unfathomable reason, Burning Tog becomes a popular deck, people will start Needle-naming Nightscape before they name Tog.

2-4 FtK - The goods. He is king of the swinging board position. Reams Werebear anus and then blocks Mongoose dead. In dire situations, combine him with Fire/Ice to kill a fat-ass of 6.

3-4 Tog - The finisher and wall of teeth. A quick note about BT’s Tog. He is not the heart and soul of the deck. I actually finish very few matches with a huge Tog. He may eat some yard to block some early critters. He may even eat a few cards to finish an opponent. But rarely will he be HUGE-AH! Nightscape and FtK often knock the opponent around enough that Tog won’t have get too big. Also, never be afraid to pitch this bitch (to FoW).

4/4 Counterspell/FoW – Control decks need counterspells. Depending on the meta, you may want to up your counterspell number by adding extra Circular Logics.

3 Burning Wish – 4 gets too bulky. These provide much of your swing factor. Get the bombs but don’t be afraid to go for the desperate targets if needed.

4 Brainstorm – Your land base is shaky. Brainstorm helps. You’re playing three colors. Brainstorm helps. Your draw is disappointingly weak. Brainstorm helps. You’re playing a few 4 or more mana spells. Brainstorm helps. I would not play the deck without Brainstorm.

4 – Fire/Ice – Even in this meta still very flexible removal that is not fully dead against control or combo. Steal turns or 2for1 the opponent. This spell is the weakest of the core-card choices, but I doubt that I would ever go below 4 of these.

The Debatable
3-4 Diabolic Edict – I need to kill fatties. Smother doesn’t kill many fatties. A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, I lost to a Soltari Monk. Screw you, Pro-Black, screw you. Other removal could be considered for this slot, but what is going to take out that Exalted Angel, Baloth, or Enforcer?

0-4 Fire Imps – I ran these as a bit of an experiment. Scrumdogg suggested them and over all, I was pleased with their performance. That being said, I’m not sure that once they did a job that FtK could not have done.

0-4 Circular Logics/Mana Leaks – I prefer to run at least 10 counters but couldn’t find the room to get the 10th in. Logic gets the nod in my book because of the following reasons: I have 8 ways to make it cost the same as Mana Leak or even cheaper. Logic is my late game counter. In the late game, it is much better than Mana Leak.

0-3 FoF – So broken with Nightscape. It is your late game “tutor”/draw for a bomb that helps fuel your Tog and sometimes even Logic. I love the split decisions your opponent makes, and I rarely see a spilt that the opponent is happy about.

The Variations
2/4 Inution/AK – Norm has opted to run this over FoF and few removal spells. I hate the Int/AK “engine.” It’s 5 mana for 3 cards while FoF is usually 4 mana for your choice of a great card with a gravy card.

0-3 Deep Anal – I personally don’t want this card main. Sure, it’s one of my first wish targets against control and Thresh, but a 4 mana sorcery for 2 cards doesn’t sound so good against Solidarity or Goblins. The life loss can hurt in certain match ups.

SB and Wish Targets to think about
Reprocess – I simply see this as unneeded and overkill. I will control the board and beat with my medium Tog and FtKs.

Upheaval – ugh. Maybe you have seen this in action in Legacy. I haven’t. Too many things need to fall into place to make this worthwhile. I have to have ton of mana. I need to wish for it. Cast it. Cast Tog. Protect my Tog. Once again, I plan on controlling the board with relatively cheap board sweepers and then beating with my medium guys. I’m not so sure about Upheaval helping that plan.

Chalice of the Void – set it for 0 or 1. Good against Thresh and combo.

Match ups

Favorable
UGw and UGb Threshold – ROAR! You often have too much removal for them to deal with. Save Edicts for Enforcers. Let Meddling Mage resolve. What is he going to name? Wish? Then FtK the Mage? He names FtK? Edict the Mage, Fire the Mage, eat the Mage, Fire Imp the Mage! ROAR! Let Needles resolve – they’ll be naming Tog. Save your counters for real threats and forcing FtK through. Kill Dark Confidant ASAP. You have plenty of ways to do it. Popular wish targets include Deep Analysis and Perish. Beware Geddon from the white version.

Angel Stompy
Pro-red can get tricky. Dig for B-Wish quickly. Lay down the Massacre beats. I usually save my counters for critters and let equipment resolve. Equipment won’t do a damn thing unless it’s on a critter. Kill Morphs ASAP. Without an Edict, it will be tough to remove that Angel. Beware Geddon from the SB. Popular Wish targets include Massacre and Chainer’s Edict.

Affinity
Meltdown. Roar. You usually have too much removal for them to deal with. I usually try counter that rotten little 1/1 guy that makes you lose life. He gets pretty silly and I have no time for his life-losing jokes.

Match ups that seem favorable but may only be so due to testing partners lack of experience with the deck

Solidarity
Let High Tide resolve. You counter key spells like Resets and Meditations. Ping with Nightscapes. If you feel safe, Wish for a Duress. For game two, bring those Duress in from the board. I would love the chance to test this with a very capable Solidarity player and I would not be surprised if the results were quite different than my current experience.

Trainwreck
This is a waiting game and you only have about 6 or 7 spells that you really need to deal with. Your main plan is to make your Echoes so much more savage while making sure Dozer never becomes active. I have mixed feelings about that stupid staff. It doesn’t scare me too much in the late game, but I’ll counter that bad boy early on. Don’t waste your time trying to win via creatures. You’ll never stop all of his removal. If he some how Echoes your B-Wish, you’re probably screwed. Sometimes you can let his Echoes resolve if you think you can handle the Dozer later. Wish targets include Echoes and Deep Anal. SB in Duress.

Unfavorable
Rifter and TruffleShuffle
I lumped these two decks together because they are bad match ups for you for the same reason – RECURRING FATTIES! You will rarely be able to snag all of their win conditions with an Echoes. I would consider simply scooping and doing something enjoyable instead of playing this match.

Goblins
You, unfortunately, do not have many answers to first turn Lackey. Vialing Ringleaders will own you. Random Pro-Blue? WTF is that about?

UGr Thresh
I briefly tested this against Zilla. I went 0-4. The 12(ish) burn spells really change the match up. They make things very difficult – nearly always removing Nightscapes, FtKs, and the possibility of Deep Anal abuse.

Untested
- IggyPop – hopefully my counters and SB Duress will be enough
- Fairy Stompy – My assumption is that this match may be favorable. Unless they get a Chalice out for 2. You have enough removal to deal with their threats. Actual testing could prove me drastically wrong.
- DeadGuy – no good clock means I can top deck B-Wish for goodness. FtK will likely help own the deck.
- Red Death – probably a bad match. Too many weenies with burn. Burning Tog, ironically, hates when anything else does the burning. A resolved turn one Negator will be bad news.

Brief tourney report
I didn't take notes so I don't remember all of the important details.

Round One: 1-1-1 vs Rifter.
A turn two cycler clues me in to a very long a likely impossible to win game one. In retrospect, I could have scooped game one ASAP and try to win out on two and three. I lose the first game to an eventual swarm of soldiers.

Game two, with Humility on the table, I resolve an Engineered Plague naming Soldiers and one naming Dragon. I have a the other two in hand ready to name Angel. He eventually scoops to a massive Haunting Echoes.

Game three, not enough time.

Key to winning vs. Rifter: Lose Game one. Game two, let Humility and Moat resolve. Counter Lightning Rift and any Disenchant effects targeting your E.Plagues. Burning Wish into Haunting Echoes.

Round Two: 2-0 vs Secret Force splashing Blue.
Game one: Burning Wish into Perish. Counter Natural Order.
Game two: Same plan but highlighted by an early Burning Wish into Pyroclasm.

Round Three 0-1-1 vs Truffle Shuffle.
Game One: I realize there is no realistic way for me to win this match but Lego Army Man does not realize that I have a slight chance with the Haunting Echoes plan to remove all of his win conditions. When the time is right, I Echoes away his Gigapedes, Eternal Dragons, and Crappy Cycling Warthog thingy that IBA likes so much. Alas, it is not enough since he still has that Scarab-dredge jerk in his library. Even if I snagged the Scarab, it wouldn't have mattered since he has two big fat recurring win conditions in his hand.

Game Two: Funny play of the day. I side in E Plague and name Insect. Fuck you Gigapede. We both have a good laugh when we realize that Scarab-dredge jerk is an Insect also. Time gets called before I lose this one too.

Key to winning vs. Truffle Shuffle: Scoop it up and get a beverage. You currently have no realistic way to beat his recurring Fatties. Save yourself the agony of playing against another of IBA's boring-as-hell cycling decks.

Round Four 2-0 UGb Gro
Game One: Burning Tog reams white or black Gro. Yes indeed it does.
Game Two: I ignore an early Needle naming Tog while he gets busy stalling on two lands for ever. I beat down with Nightscapes and Counter/Kill anything of relevance. He never gets his fourth land to cast his Krosan Squirrel Beasts.

Round Five 2-0 Wub Angel Stompy
Game One: Phil over-extends into a Burning Wish/Massacre. I topdeck like a pro and Fire Imp a Morphed Angel then Edict away a Pro-Red Douche Bag. Fuck you, Pro-Red, fuck you.
Game Two: This one was much closer. Phil has Mages, Dark Confidants, and Ninja Rats. The two times he hits me with that stupid Ninja Rat, I discard two lands. FU, Ninja-Rat, FU. I counter his Geddon and later when he recasts a game winning MMage, I hard cast Force of Will to seal-the-deal.

Round Six 1-1 he concedes to me. THE MIRROR!
Game One: Alex out-draws me while I flounder on two lands for way too long.
Game Two: I win a few key counter wars, draw better than Alex, and then cast a pretty effective Echoes.
Game Three: Alex concedes to me when we hear that 4-2 will not be making top 8 and if I win I'll have a chance of Top 8ing.

quicksilver
08-11-2006, 04:18 PM
Nice write up. What about the Survival match up?

Peter_Rotten
08-11-2006, 04:22 PM
Nice write up. What about the Survival match up?
Recurring Fatties are bad. If you have Genesis in yard or a resolved Survival, I lose.

spiderfreak
08-11-2006, 04:30 PM
Recurring Fatties are bad. If you have Genesis in yard or a resolved Survival, I lose.

what about Pithing Needle

Alfred
08-11-2006, 04:35 PM
Have you tried Fire Covenant? It's in the right colors, is an instant, and could easily replace the Fire part of Fire/Ice. It also gives a BIG MIDDLE FINGER to Goblins, and can kill things like Werebear where Fire/Ice can't.

Also, with your deck, it seems like the playstyle revolves less around killing with a tog, whereas with Norm's list and the Intuition/AK setup, it looks like Tog is more FEARSOME LIKE CRY BITCH YOU JUST GOT EATEN >:(

Also, is the 11 next to the number of counterspells on your side a typo, or do you actually have more than 1 Circular Logic?

Peter_Rotten
08-11-2006, 04:36 PM
what about Pithing Needle
Absolutely nothing wrong with Needles from the SB. But there is only so much room in the board. I'd love to be able to run 4 each of Duress, Needle, Crypt, Chalice, and Plague. And then my Wish targets. But then I'd be cheating. Oh well.


Also, is the 11 next to the number of counterspells on your side a typo, or do you actually have more than 1 Circular Logic?

Total typo. Kids are owning me right now. I'll fix the list within 24 hours

Alex_Van_R
08-11-2006, 05:26 PM
You're playing Burning Wish. Whyd don't you play one sideboard Cranial Extraction?

Peter_Rotten
08-11-2006, 05:42 PM
You're playing Burning Wish. Whyd don't you play one sideboard Cranial Extraction?
Well, in which match would it be particularly helpful? I can't think of one in which would really want to wish for this target. Maybe the Trainwreck match, but that deck is about as prevalent as Burning Tog.

Update: I cut and pasted my brief tourney report for the DLDII into the original post.

rockSTAR
08-11-2006, 08:10 PM
Counterspell sucks with the Familiar. If you run Familiar you should also run soft counter like memory lapse and remand that are support by the familiar.

noobslayer
08-11-2006, 09:15 PM
Then again, Tog only has limited resources to deal with threats, and in this case it may be better to go with non-synergy than delay the inevitable.

spiderfreak
08-12-2006, 12:09 AM
Counterspell sucks with the Familiar. If you run Familiar you should also run soft counter like memory lapse and remand that are support by the familiar.

But you need that hard counter so the spell you dont want to happen does not happen.

rockSTAR
08-12-2006, 03:51 AM
Keep in mind, that counter like lapse and remind buy you a turn every time you counter a spell. Remind even cantrips so you draw in more and more soft counter until you swing with the lethal tog.
A counterbase like that could look like this:

4 FOW
4 Memory Lapse
4 Remind
(4 Mana Leak if you dont like one of the above)

Peter_Rotten
08-12-2006, 11:26 AM
Keep in mind, that counter like lapse and remind buy you a turn every time you counter a spell. Remind even cantrips so you draw in more and more soft counter until you swing with the lethal tog.


Yes self-quoting time:


3-4 Tog - The finisher and wall of teeth. A quick note about BT’s Tog. He is not the heart and soul of the deck. I actually finish very few matches with a huge Tog. He may eat some yard to block some early critters. He may even eat a few cards to finish an opponent. But rarely will he be HUGE-AH! Nightscape and FtK often knock the opponent around enough that Tog won’t have get too big. Also, never be afraid to pitch this bitch (to FoW).

I don't want to "buy a turn." I want to counter stuff. The main goal is not to swing with lethal Tog. That play is the contingency plan.

spiderfreak
08-12-2006, 11:46 AM
not[/I] the heart and soul of the deck. I actually finish very few matches with a huge Tog. He may eat some yard to block some early critters. He may even eat a few cards to finish an opponent. But rarely will he be HUGE-AH! Nightscape and FtK often knock the opponent around enough that Tog won’t have get too big. Also, never be afraid to pitch this bitch (to FoW).


I know what you mean I play Tog so much (Not) I want to call it Burning Familiar

Brushwagg
08-12-2006, 12:03 PM
@Peter Rotten:Nice write up. You pretty much got the Gro match right. I think I drew maybe 1 card of Bob in our match.

I was very surprised that you don't run MD Deep Anal. While I do agree FoF can be/is nuts, have you really ever missed the extra draw off DA??

Another thing that surpised me is why it took so long for this deck to come back? It pretty much has all the tools to take over the current meta game by storm. Maybe alot of people forgot about, I did, until someone asked in the Flavors of Tog, what is the better version of Tog.

MattH
08-12-2006, 12:28 PM
It sounds like this deck isn't even a Tog deck as they are normally thought of, but rather one of those URB Invasion block decks + Togs.

You know, the ones with Nether Spirit and Urza's Rage/Yawgmoth's Agenda as win conditions.

Slag
08-12-2006, 12:32 PM
Have you ever wanted to wish for a pyroclasm? Or, has massacre been enough in your sweeper slot?

Peter_Rotten
08-12-2006, 01:17 PM
Have you ever wanted to wish for a pyroclasm? Or, has massacre been enough in your sweeper slot?

I usually run 3 board sweeping Wish targets. Pyroclasm, Perish, and Massacre. Each has it's benefits, but in the current "metagame," Pyroclasm is the least wished for. Then again, if Goblins starts to reappear, it may be the most popular.

Lanfeng
08-12-2006, 11:06 PM
Is deep analysis so useful in your board? I mean against control wouldn't you be more happy fetching a haunting echoes. To deep analysis off a burning wish its sorcery speed, and 4-6 mana.

Also if you are kind of shying away from less tog, then why don't you take a tog out and add another FTK, 4 is hardly necessary...or if it is why?

Peter_Rotten
08-13-2006, 08:11 AM
Is deep analysis so useful in your board? I mean against control wouldn't you be more happy fetching a haunting echoes. To deep analysis off a burning wish its sorcery speed, and 4-6 mana.

Also if you are kind of shying away from less tog, then why don't you take a tog out and add another FTK, 4 is hardly necessary...or if it is why?

Norm and I were discussing messing with the Tog count. If you notice, he went down to 3. Tog will never be a totally dead card. FtK? Yeah, he can be dead and can't even sit in my hand waiting to be pitched to FoW.

Deep Analyis is a very solid target against control. The draw is light in this deck and sometimes you need a little boost. Sure Haunting Echoes is a great target against control also, but sometimes you need to draw the counters to protect it. Lastly, in the mid game against control, Burning Wish could be sitting in your hand doing nothing.

Peter_Rotten
02-26-2007, 07:53 PM
Now that BT has totally reappeared as a irrelevant unfoil to the metagame, I figured that I would necro this thread out of the archives (thanks Nightmare).

If you haven't heard the ground-breaking news, I made 3rd at the Springfield Tropical Island tourney, with the following list:

Creatures 11
4 Nightscape Familiar
3 Psychatog
4 Flametongue Kavu

Counter 10
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Circular Logic

Kill 9
4 Fire/Ice
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Burning Wish

Draw 6
4 Brainstorm
2 Fact or Fiction

Land 24
4 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
2 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
6 Island
2 Swamp

Key SB choices
1 Damnation (wish for Wrath seemed hot but I didn't use it once!)
1 Meltdown (screw you Affinity)
1 Perish (screw you Gro and stompy)
1 Deep Anal (wish for when playing against control)
1 Haunting Echoes (I win)
1 Pyroclasm
1 Chainer’s Edict (just in case)
4 Duress (for combo)
4 Tormod's Crypt (recurring creatures are teh badz for me)

Here is a very brief report in which I didn’t take notes and don’t remember much and will mention cockandorballz in each match:

On the ride up, I make a terrible decision to remove Massacre from the board since, hell, who’s going to playing Angel Stompy or little white creatures? Screw that! I’ll play Damnation!

Round 1
2-1 vs Welder Survival

G1 – He has a terrible start with Mox Diamonds and bad blue weenies with shadow. I 2 for 1 a little and beat with FtK for the win. At this point, I’m convinced he’s playing some sort of bad weenie deck.

G2 – I don’t SB anything since I own bad weenies. Early on, I counter a Jitte. Towards mid game, he casts Thirst for Knowledge and I say to myself, wtf? I can’t believe he is playing Welder Survival so I foolishly let TfK resolve and he of course drops Squee and Genny in the yard. Yeah, that’s a kick in the cocknballz. Going is tough from there on since he has a chump-Squee for my FtK every turn and eventually he gets enough mana to recur stuff with Genny. Then I can’t stop a very late Survival which obviously wins him the game.

G3 – Cursing my misplay and misboard, I bring my Crypts in. His first turn, which is Shield Sphere, Cradle, BoP, is much more impressive than my Island-go. Luckily for me he doesn’t get anymore early mana and can’t get too stupid with Survival. I FtK his BoP and he drops another. We fiddle faddle around for a turn or three with him dropping in his yard a Squee, Anger, and Genny. His board still consists of only Survival, BoP, Sphere, and Craddle, but he will win with an angry Welder next turn. However, I steal the game with this massive play: I attack with my FtK. He does not block. I drop my 2nd FtK targeting his Sphere which is 0/5. Then I Fire/Ice his BoP and Sphere leaving him a Cradle that can’t produce mana. Next I drop Crypt and remove any chance of recursion. I win next turn with FtK beats.

Round 2
1-0-1 vsGoblins

G1 – Wow, I have a really bad game against Goblins but I fight valiantly. I actually have near control of the game at 4 life when he casts a Lightning Bolt! WTF! I counter it since I can’t be at 1 and fearing every Fanatic. He bolts again, leaving my cocknballz toasty, and then eventually pushes through enough damage.

G2 – Takes about as long as game one, but he makes a misplay on his last turn and is forced to draw with me instead of winning the game. Not that it really mattered, huh?

Round 3 (or maybe 4)
2-1 vs Odd MBC

G1 – Sweet, MBC! I should stomp it but he actually Extirpates my Togs and FtKs, and then drops a Plague for Zombies. I get a big hard-on for the Echoes win, but my hopes go limp when I can’t stop his shadow dork.

G2 – I board in Duress to steal a few key cards. I remember little of this game other than paying 5 life to a bad black counterspell and letting him pay 4 to have an extra turn to do nothing. I dispatch him quickly while drawing extra cards from my Deep Anal.

G3 – This game was a little better since we go back and forth a bit. Deep Anal gives me sweet card drawing loving and I think I eventually beat down with FtKs while countering key spells.

Round 4 (or maybe 3)
2-1 vs Amazing Results played by gaypron!

G1 – I win by making it to the late game and out-drawing him.
G2 – He wins with a Rancored BoP carrying a Jitte in its beak.
G3 – I think I remember him being a little land light this game and he can’t recover in the face of my awesomeness. To punish me, he decides to call my house at 11:45 to tell me that while Norm was driving him home he realized that he has left his keys in my car! Ugh. I go outside to get his keys, rub them all over my cocknballz, put them between my ass cheeks, and then carry them to my mailbox. They were cold. The keys, not my cocknballz.

This may or may not have been the round when LegoArmyMan calls the judge on Angel of Despair like 5 times. She must be a svg cheater or something.

Round 5
2-1 vs WUG Dryad/Grunt/Weenie deck played by Angel of Despair

Side note: LegoArmyMan calls the judge on Scrumdogg since Allan threatened to rip off his Lego face and piss in his Lego skull. Twice. Although they had a rough start to their match, the two end the round as best friends with benefits.

G1 (or two) – This may or may not have been the game where I comment how I really just shot my load with Tog and had nothing left. Angel mentions, “oh, he’s just a little guy now” and Norm can’t help but take the joke as a girl implying that my cocknballz are small. Anyway, I steal this game when she StPs my Tog and I remove my yard in response to gain 10 life. That buys me enough time to stabilize and outdraw her.

G2 (or one) – Grunts and Legendary Hounds steal this one if I remember correctly. I think Jitte got ugly.

G3 – I Wish for Deep Anal early and start to outdraw her while 2 for 1-ing. FtK kept Grunt from getting crazy, and he beats for the win.

Semi-Finals
2-1 vs WUB Shadowmage, Meddling Mage, Dark Confidant, Silver Knight, Grunt, Jitte, played by Scrummdog

G1 – FtK and Edict clear the board for the win while Counterspell keeps Jitte off the board. I think that this is the game that my topdecks were so savage that I needed to lick my cards at 2 life. I win.

G2 – Double Silver Knight? Bah! I’ll just Wish for Massacre and… FUCK! /punch self in cocknballz for replacing a free board wipe spell with a 2BB Wrath. Of course Allan uses Wasteland to prevent me from getting BB and actually using Damnation at least once during the tourney. Those damn Knights beat for the win.

G3 – gets stupid. I believe I may have had three FtKs for critters that did not have pro-red. I win.

Quarter
1-2 vs Goblins

G1 – He mulls to 5 and keeps a bad hand. I win with 3 FtKs on the board. All I needed now was to have him mull to 5 or 4 again and I could have some hope of winning.

G2 – He does not mull. He does not misplay. He does unfair things with unfair creatures with unfair mechanics. Screw goblins.

G3 – Who the hell made that stupid deck? Who made Ringleader? Lackey? Warchief? Vial? Siege Bang? Fuck the person. Fuck him in the ass. With my cocknballz.

Loser Bracket to determine 3rd and 4th place
2-1 IggyPop

G1 – He attempts to go off and I only have one C-Spell but he has two tutors and enough mana to start the Iggy loop.

G2 – In come my 4 Duress and 4 Crypt. I keep an opening hand that makes think I have somehow cheated - 3 Duress! However, I misplay and nearly lose since I don’t blow the Crypt and instead leave it in play to be Wipe Away-ed at the worst possible moment. WTF Wizards? Do you really hate Counters that much? My early Duress bought me enough turns though to lay a clock on the board. He resolves an Iggy but misplays and has no mana to continue the loop.

G3 – His turn 0 Leyline of the Void makes it possible for me to B-Wish for my Duress. Take that turn 0 card. Take it and like it. He concedes after I Echoes his Iggy and Tendrils.

And what do we learn here? We learn that you shouldn’t play a deck that has a horrible match-up against the best deck in the format. I’m also wondering if there is a really good reason that we all aren’t playing goblins?

Oh, and screw posting this in the tourney report forum. I need an excuse to necro this thread.

MattH
02-26-2007, 10:25 PM
G3 – His turn 0 Leyline of the Void makes it possible for me to B-Wish for my Duress.
What? I don't follow this at all...

On the other hand, you keep making me want to play this deck, since I actually own everything for it. :/ Well not the Badlands but those are totally borrow-able.

Afro
02-26-2007, 11:24 PM
What? I don't follow this at all...

On the other hand, you keep making me want to play this deck, since I actually own everything for it. :/ Well not the Badlands but those are totally borrow-able.

My guess is Matt is stating that should he cast a duress he can then burning wish for the same duress and use it again.

Also please someone lock this thread asap. I hate it when people encourage Matt with this deck.

Windux
02-27-2007, 01:36 AM
Oh, now it's groundbreaking if you win against randomdecks?
This tournament doesn't seems to be repressentativ.

Peter_Rotten
02-27-2007, 09:14 AM
To clear up the lack of details about Leyline of the Void: I cast a turn 1 Duress, it resolved, but was RFGed because of Leyline. Turn 2 I Burning Wished for it back. Turn 3, I cast it again.


Oh, now it's groundbreaking if you win against randomdecks?
This tournament doesn't seems to be repressentativ.

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

Burning Tog has once again reared its toothy, fire-spitting head and the meta is quaking in its pee-filled boots.

You may be concerned about its horrible game against goblins. But, ya know what? Goblins is a good deck and just about nobody plays good decks in this format. If you are unable to recognize the Burning Tog revolution, I will fly to Germany and crush you with it. Now witness the power of this fully armed and operational battle station.

AnwarA101
02-27-2007, 10:25 AM
You may be concerned about its horrible game against goblins. But, ya know what? Goblins is a good deck and just about nobody plays good decks in this format.

If you played in any large Legacy tournaments (like the one this weekend) you would know this isn't the case. Goblins is almost always 15-20% of the field. Planning on losing to that portion of the field is an awful plan just like trying to play SF2 when you clearly can't.

Peter_Rotten
02-27-2007, 01:38 PM
... Goblins is almost always 15-20% of the field...

Which means 80-85% of the field will be playing a shitty deck. I refuse to weaken my match against 80-85% of the field by preparing for a deck that won't even make up a quarter of the metagame.

Burning Tog ROAR!

Xero
02-27-2007, 01:45 PM
You could put Plague in the sideboard. Or would that weaken all your "good" match-ups?

Aggro_zombies
02-27-2007, 02:00 PM
BUrning OTG!!!!!!!!! ROOARRRRRRR!!!!!1

Wouldn't Pyroclasm be a better choice than Massacre in the sideboard for Goblins, or is AS that much of a problem? Seems like equiped dudes could easily dodge Massacre...and Pyroclasm, but whatever. Damnation and Pyroclasm, perhaps?

Nydaeli
02-27-2007, 03:29 PM
Stupid tech idea: What about running 1x Empty the Warrens in the board? You could randomly combo out and beat face with a Nightscape Familiar down.

Deep6er
02-27-2007, 03:42 PM
Best Joke Thread Ever. I like the obviously fake tournament reports. Burning Tog winning a game! Hilarious!

Edit: What the hell is up with the ROAR-ing? Makes you sound like Fagzilla or something.

Cait_Sith
02-27-2007, 04:56 PM
I am looking over this deck and I think that P_Rs right when he says not play this deck in fear of Gobbos is stupid. This deck has enough good matchups that fearing the 25% tops avg of Gobs you'll see is stupid. That doesn't mean 75%+ of the field will be playing a shitty decks, but they certainly won't be Gobs.

Peter_Rotten
02-27-2007, 06:39 PM
Stupid tech idea: What about running 1x Empty the Warrens in the board? You could randomly combo out and beat face with a Nightscape Familiar down.

I almost like the idea. But I have a feeling that I will be unable to significantly up the storm count. Burning Wish for EtW makes 4 tokens - hardly impressive. Maybe I could reasonably toss in a Brainstorm to make 6 tokens.


Best Joke Thread Ever. I like the obviously fake tournament reports. Burning Tog winning a game! Hilarious!

How dare you. I have never faked a game with Burning Tog. Continue to dismiss the deck; it is obvious that you have not tested it. Since you have not tested it, you cannot comment on its viability.


Edit: What the hell is up with the ROAR-ing? Makes you sound like Fagzilla or something.

How dare you again! You're lucky that I don't change your name to ILikeDeep6inchesInMyAss.


I am looking over this deck and I think that P_Rs right when he says not play this deck in fear of Gobbos is stupid. This deck has enough good matchups that fearing the 25% tops avg of Gobs you'll see is stupid.

Finally, some common sense. Why prepare for the good decks if people aren't going to play them?

Brushwagg
02-27-2007, 08:30 PM
G2 – Double Silver Knight? Bah! I’ll just Wish for Massacre and… FUCK! /punch self in cocknballz for replacing a free board wipe spell with a 2BB Wrath. Of course Allan uses Wasteland to prevent me from getting BB and actually using Damnation at least once during the tourney. Those damn Knights beat for the win.

I'll be laughing about that for a bit. Congrats on the Finish.

@The deck itself:This deck or any Burning Wish control can be tailored to just smash the meta game. There really is alot of good targets just in Black and Red. Blue has some, but not nearly the goods Black and Red have.

You can almost get away from running Tog all together. Since you do win more games with FTK and Familiar beats then a huge Tog.

kicks_422
02-27-2007, 08:42 PM
I agree. I don't see any compelling reason to run Tog here anymore.

Except for the fact that Burning Tog is such a gorgeous name, moreso than Burning FTK or Burning Familiar.

Peter_Rotten
02-27-2007, 08:57 PM
Norm and I have continually discussed removing Tog but there are simply no other creatures that seem like a decent replacement. We want an early (cheap) creature that will function as some sort of wall or board control but also be a big threat in the late game. What creature can fufill that double duty?

I'm toying with the idea of running 4 Ftks and 3 Fire Imps, but Imps just aren't too sexy in the late game. What could possibly replace Tog?

Slag
02-27-2007, 09:01 PM
Aquamoeba doesn't swing for 6-30 damage as well as the tog does, but it comes down early, survives a pyroclasm, and still facilitates circular logic.

troopatroop
02-27-2007, 09:05 PM
Dark Confidant

Cait_Sith
02-27-2007, 09:17 PM
Then it wouldn't be burning Tog, Trust me, skinny little wizards on fire is not sexy.

Psychatog is a super efficient creature that, as Angel kindly demonstrated, can create very interesting situations.

I don't like Fire Imp because it weakens your Thresh MU. Losing to Gobs is fine (unless it becomes 70% of the meta, but that isn't gonna happen), losing to Gobs and Thresh is not. Tog is a madness outlet and a strong body while Fire Imp's only hope to stop a Mongoose is by trading early game and chumping late. I prefer versatility.

Lollythecat1990
02-27-2007, 09:30 PM
Long time forum troll, first post. Be gentle.

I have to confess that BTog is my favoutite deck (thanks P Rotten for your inspiration!) It isn't favourite because it's always effective, but because it is fun. Let's face it: is Goblins fun? Effective, yes, and good for people who have short concentration spans, as it generally provides short games. But for the cut and thrust of magic (cough - control aggro nut - cough), give me BT anyday.

Mr Rotten (may I call you 'sir'?), I notice that you have forgone Decompose in your sideboard (from a previous version) for the expediency of Tormod's Crypt. Given the four spots this takes up in the board, are you happy with the results? Any thresh matches to compare the effectiveness? Are you missing the flexibility those 4 spots allow for other wish targets?

On the Gobs matchup, my version of BTog loses some of the tactical flexibility for four maindeck plagues (I lose the edicts, a FtK, a counter, plus a few other minor changes). Unfortunately my version is largely untested in a competitive environment, as I can't find legacy players within miles, other than a mate who when he doesn't borrow my deck, uses a U/G madness construction (not BT's greatest moment - these are tough games).

On the Tog question, I often look longingly at my lone Shadowmage Infiltrator, and wonder what if...

MattH
02-27-2007, 09:38 PM
I almost like the idea. But I have a feeling that I will be unable to significantly up the storm count. Burning Wish for EtW makes 4 tokens - hardly impressive. Maybe I could reasonably toss in a Brainstorm to make 6 tokens.

Burning Wish for Burning Wish for Burning Wish for Burning Wish for Burning Wish for ETW is up to 12 tokens if you have all the red sources in your deck in play.

You're not even running all three Wishes so you could SB one if you really wanted to make this a key component of the deck.

Peter_Rotten
02-27-2007, 09:40 PM
I would never replace the Crypts because recurring creatures kill this deck. Eternal Dragon must be removed ASAP and for free. Gigapede? Dredge guy? They all must be removed ASAP. A smart opponent can easily play around a Decompose while a Crypt is a little harder. Plus Crypt is much better than Decompose against decks like Iggy. Also, Crypt can make sure Squee will never get out of the yard. Genny hates Crypt.

I have a personal hatred towards Shadowmage, but Norm has suggested him before. I think that he simply may not be dynamic enough to fit the bill though. He'll never kill a Goose or Werebear and can never be more than a little clock.

Zilla
02-27-2007, 10:05 PM
Norm and I have continually discussed removing Tog but there are simply no other creatures that seem like a decent replacement.
Wee Dragonauts?

Aggro_zombies
02-28-2007, 02:32 AM
Wee Dragonauts?
Then you can rename the deck STD.dec, because it burns when you wee. *drumroll*

Okay, not funny. It's too bad Gelectrode is a 0/1, if it had a bigger ass than your average Asian chick it might be worth looking into. As it is, I don't think removing Tog is the way to go here because it is, as P_R has stated, simply the best creature in these colors. You *might* consider running Finkel in his place, but then I'm pretty sure Landstill would win faster than this deck.

Bane of the Living
02-28-2007, 07:05 PM
If you played in any large Legacy tournaments (like the one this weekend) you would know this isn't the case. Goblins is almost always 15-20% of the field. Planning on losing to that portion of the field is an awful plan just like trying to play SF2 when you clearly can't.

This tourny had I think 37 people with a large array of decks. There were 3 gob decks that made top 8 and PR managed 3rd regardless of their presence.

Im wondering about that Warrens kill too. Matt I noticed you had like 10 lands out in every game that went that late. The Burning Wish chain seems like a possiblitly.

Cait_Sith
02-28-2007, 09:31 PM
Then you can rename the deck STD.dec, because it burns when you wee. *drumroll*

If bad jokes were a crime I would get to kill you and main your mother.

Gelectrode would still be unimpressive is it had a 0/2 body because its only offensive ability is a ping and no way to save itself from all burn based removal.

Brushwagg
02-28-2007, 09:51 PM
I would never replace the Crypts because recurring creatures kill this deck. Eternal Dragon must be removed ASAP and for free. Gigapede? Dredge guy? They all must be removed ASAP. A smart opponent can easily play around a Decompose while a Crypt is a little harder. Plus Crypt is much better than Decompose against decks like Iggy. Also, Crypt can make sure Squee will never get out of the yard. Genny hates Crypt.

Crypt isn't that hard to play around, for the Survival player, if they know what the hell they are doing. But for Threshold and IGGY(to a degree), and Reanimator, it's a kick in the junk.

@Empty the Warrens:It would be easy to chain Burning Wishes together with a Familiar in play. SInce each wish cost 1R and Warrens costs 2R under it. But if you where to go with a Strom card in the board, I'd probably go with Tendrils. Since ETW tokens are 1/1's, they don't have Haste, and we are talking late game, where your opponent will be low on life(hopefully). Just a thought.

merfolk_robot
02-28-2007, 10:04 PM
When I was trying to make a Burning Tog list I tried putting an Ill-Gotten Gains in the sideboard and included a couple of ritual effects and ran Intuitions. At some point, especially with a Familiar out, it was possible to intuition for 3 Burning Wish, cast your rituals, Wish for IGG, IGG for wish+rituals, cast rituals, Wish for IGG again, etc and then cast Tendrils/ETW. I never got it to work very well though... no matter what I tried it was always a little off. But I suck. Someone should be able to make that work.

Ebinsugewa
02-28-2007, 10:31 PM
I actually think that Fire Imp helps your Threshold matchup more than anything. That way you have more maindeck outs against Meddling Mage than just Fire and Edict (if he names FTK, as is usually correct in the Thresh matchup). http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=20996 is my deck from TML 1 and what I plan on playing again unless our testing results come up with something crazy. Any recommendations? PS - I don't know if it was Ray who was in charge of uploading the lists or whatnot, but my last name is O'Dowd. I just noticed my deck was up there like two days ago, roar. So if that could get fixed too, that would be sweet.

PPS - Damnation has to fit somewhere, right?

Soto
04-08-2007, 09:05 PM
I was wondering if anyone had an updated list for this deck and if he did, if he could post it ?

Peter_Rotten
04-08-2007, 10:28 PM
The list on top of page two is probably as good as it gets.

MMage naming FtK is a pain, but taking care of that Mage isn't too hard. 4 Fire/Ice, 3 Diabolic Edict, 3 Burning Wish for Massacre, Pyroclasm, or Chainer's Edict. Plus, Mage may need to block a big toothy monster. Or even get countered if needed.

Soto
04-08-2007, 11:05 PM
Thanks.

Now i'm thinking of making this. But the build Dr Teeth ran at the MLO to a 2nd place finish looks pretty good as well. What would u advise?

honz
07-17-2007, 01:58 AM
yay necro!

I have been playing around with this deck lately, mainly due to its rogue qualities. I have been trying out some different things here and there, attempting to improve some things.

MD Fire Convenants (2) being one thing i have tried. This card is amazing against goblins, and really helps that MU; however, it is terrible in the thresh MU. In fact, this card is dead against thresh unless they have NO hand. Imp is another option in this slot. This isn't dead against thresh, but by the time you can cast it (they will have thresh), its ability is limited. Imp is a solid addition to the deck, as it does help against gobbos, and other random aggro.

Shadowmage has been suggested as well. I tried this, and it was absolutely terrible. Maybe someone else has a different expeirience, but these were horrible in my testing...

Another option for this slot, has been Wee Dragonauts. My testing has been limited with these, and only with them as a 2-of. The little time i have spent went them has gone well. I am currently running FoF, but i think dragonauts would prefer AK engine more (is there any better reasoning here?). Also, i dropped to 23 lands to add a third edict, which suits dragonauts well (and i like it with or without them).

If i end up going to the AK engine, i will probly drop to 2 atogs (as the synergy is poor). Although, space is really tight, and going to AK requires intuitions as well. Are there any thoughts on what to drop?

I only run 8 counters ATM, 4 leaks and 4 FoW. I have yet to really decide if i like leaks better than counterspells. I am kinda leaning towards straight counterspell though. I liked 10 counters, however 2 circular logics never really worked out for me. Their madness cost never was a factor, because if i have a tog in play, i dont have much of a graveyard. The logics were cut for the creatures (talked about above).

Oh, i got destroyed by a counterbalance the other day. Turn 1 top, turn 2 balance = gg for this deck. Everything is 2cc, with few exceptions. Everything that isnt, finds a FoW waiting...

With MD imps / convenants, the board can be tweaked (4 plagues) to have a decent game against gobbos. Also, i think extirpate > tormod's crypt.

Any thoughts on imp / dragonauts / logic spot? Any thoughts on the deck viability? Any new tech? I have been getting good results out of it, and most matches are winable.

Citrus-God
08-04-2007, 12:36 AM
I know this sounds trashy, but a good replacement for Tog would be Fledgling Dragon. You guys are already running fetchlands, a number of Volcanic Islands, and a Badlands. I'm sure testing this card wouldnt hurt. I built a tog deck with Dragons before, and I thought they might be better than Tog.

quicksilver
10-02-2008, 10:45 AM
Sorry to necro this thread but there is a new card that I think will be so very cool in this deck. Cruel Ultimatum as a Burning Wish target. You get into the late game, draw a burning wish, and play cruel ultimatum, devestating your opponent.

I will be disappointed if i don't see Peter Rotten doing this at the source tournement.

Peter_Rotten
10-02-2008, 03:59 PM
Sorry to necro this thread but there is a new card that I think will be so very cool in this deck. Cruel Ultimatum as a Burning Wish target. You get into the late game, draw a burning wish, and play cruel ultimatum, devestating your opponent.

I will be disappointed if i don't see Peter Rotten doing this at the source tournement.
I own one too! Opened it at the PreRelease! I've been toying with rezzing this deck.

quicksilver
10-02-2008, 04:07 PM
I own one too! Opened it at the PreRelease! I've been toying with rezzing this deck.

You totally should, can you just imagine the look on your opponents face when you cast cruel ultimatum? I imagine it will look somewhat like your avatar minus the halo.

Peter_Rotten
10-02-2008, 04:12 PM
This is totally do-able!

I just have to find a solution for the Ichorid match, Goyf Sligh match, Storm Combo Match, AggroLoam Match, Dreadstill match, and the Goblins match.

Bryant Cook
10-02-2008, 04:13 PM
I recommend less suck with a dose of good.

quicksilver
10-02-2008, 04:15 PM
This is totally do-able!

I just have to find a solution for the Ichorid match, Goyf Sligh match, Storm Combo Match, AggroLoam Match, Dreadstill match, and the Goblins match.

Just play extirpate. It gets rid off all the problem cards in all those decks.

KillemallCFH
10-02-2008, 04:15 PM
Can this deck support CB? Seems like it should be able to, and if so, that will help most of those problem matchups sans Ichorid and Joblins.

Amon Amarth
10-02-2008, 04:25 PM
This is totally do-able!

I just have to find a solution for the Ichorid match, Goyf Sligh match, Storm Combo Match, AggroLoam Match, Dreadstill match, and the Goblins match.

Hope you draw your board cards in Games 2/3? Also straight up losing to Ichorid in 10 minutes and getting a cheeseburger is probably your best bet. Even tho' you lose the round you're still the winnar with a good burger.

Fledgling Dragon is a beast. He's at least as good as Tog, even more so since you have ample Red mana. It's a lot easier to recover with him than because Threshold is way easier to achieve than a metric fuckton of cards in your graveyard.

Have you tried testing 1-2 Mystical Tutors in the deck. It can help you find the right kind of spell you need. It also kicks ass when you want to board in a bunch of singletons from a Wish board. I've always loved it in Control decks. Might be something to check out.


Just play extirpate. It gets rid off all the problem cards in all those decks.

/cry

HSCK
10-02-2008, 08:07 PM
Maybe remove the Togs for Tombstalkers, and run Firespouts?

Jak
01-25-2009, 03:57 AM
RAWR!!!

With all the new amazing cards, why isn't this seeing play? Here is the list I've been rocking on MWS.

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
3 Badlands

4 Dark Confidant
4 Shadowmage Infiltrator
4 Psychatog
4 Tombstalker
4 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker (ROAR!)

4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will

4 Brainstorm
4 Burning Wish
4 Cruel Ultimatum

Everything I draw just wrecks other decks and my draw engine is insane. Most fun deck I have ever played.

Ebinsugewa
01-25-2009, 04:22 AM
Average CMC of that deck is 2.42, and ten fetches! Doesn't that seem kinda high with only four Brainstorm to keep you from doming yourself beyond belief with Bob? What's your Wishboard like? I don't see a single answer to anything in your maindeck.

Jak
01-25-2009, 04:43 AM
The cards are so powerful that I would rather get them sooner than later.

Henrik
01-25-2009, 05:08 AM
I feel as if everyone else in the world know something that I don't.

This is a joke, right? Please say it is a joke...

Waikiki
01-25-2009, 05:18 AM
Obvious

Nydaeli
01-25-2009, 05:22 AM
That's probably the worst list I've ever seen on this website. So let's hope.

jjjoness'
01-25-2009, 06:41 AM
8 CC 8
4 CC 7
4 CC 5

Bob

That's not exactly what I'd want to play.

edit// fail at writing....

chokin
01-25-2009, 07:25 AM
There are 10 fetches in that list and 10 duals. I don't really see how it manages to get the lands to play either Bolas or Ultimatum. It also doesn't pack enough control to even get that far. And as jjjoness' said, 12 spells costing 7 or more is really risky.

I think it's a joke. It has to be.

wolfstorm
01-25-2009, 08:48 AM
RAWR!!!

With all the new amazing cards, why isn't this seeing play? Here is the list I've been rocking on MWS.

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
3 Badlands

4 Dark Confidant
4 Shadowmage Infiltrator
4 Psychatog
4 Tombstalker
4 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker (ROAR!)

4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will

4 Brainstorm
4 Burning Wish
4 Cruel Ultimatum

Everything I draw just wrecks other decks and my draw engine is insane. Most fun deck I have ever played.

Needs more Draco, and a splash of erratic explosion. Also, have you considered death wish over burning wish? It would allow you to add more answers to your sideboard IMO.


What's your Wishboard like?

Obviously one is infernal contract or cruel bargain.

Technics
04-10-2012, 01:48 AM
Not to grave dig this like a boss, but would this be viable in todays meta. With all the Stoneblade, and control. This seems like something that would pry on todays meta like a boss!

Antonius
04-10-2012, 01:53 AM
^^

oh how I wish.

Playing tog again would be so fucking sick.

lavafrogg
04-10-2012, 02:22 AM
If goyf was not printed, how good would tog currently be? Would the doctor been top dog until mystic was printed or would knight have take his spot as the control win con of choice?

Technics
04-10-2012, 02:26 AM
Am i just dreaming. I want Tog to be good again...

:-(

Antonius
04-10-2012, 02:27 AM
If goyf was not printed, how good would tog currently be? Would the doctor been top dog until mystic was printed or would knight have take his spot as the control win con of choice?

knight never has been the control win con of choice. Having to play two off-colors just makes things too difficult.

lavafrogg
04-10-2012, 02:39 AM
So tog would have been king until mystic? Or jace? I'm thinking maybe until land still took over.

Brushwagg
04-10-2012, 09:00 AM
Pretty sweet necro here. Oh I do miss Tog and and alot of other cards.

AngryTroll
04-10-2012, 10:49 AM
I actually tried playing this deck somewhat recently. Nightscape Familiar was the best card by far. Turn three Jace or Kavu was solid, and Burning Wish or Standstill for a single mana felt like cheating. Without the Familiar, though, the curve was just much too high. Aiming a Flametongue Kavu at 3/2 flier feels great, until you realize that they spent one mana and you spent four.