[Deck] 43 Lands [Archive] - Page 2

tb249606

12-10-2008, 02:24 AM

here is the list i have been working on. looking for help all comments welcome:
21 spells

4x burning wish
4x manabond
4x exploratiom
3x life from the loam
3x intuition
1x worm harvest
1x engineered explosives
1x zuran orb

39 land

4x wasteland
4x rishadon port
4x maze of ith
3x mishras factory
1x tabernacle of pendrell vale
1x riftstone portal
3x taiga
1x bosejiu, who shelters all
1x Barbarian ring
3x tropical island
1x savanah
2x windswept heath
2x wooded foothills
1x forgotten cave
3x tranquil thicket
2x treetop village
1x academy ruins
1x nomad stadium
1x glacial chasm

sideboard

1x worm harvest
1x firebolt
2x ray of revelation
1x glacial chasm
4x chalice of the void
1x life from the loam
1x devastating dreams
1x ancient grudge
1x shattering spree
1x scapeshift
1x engineered explosives

Shawon

12-10-2008, 02:58 AM

I think you run too many Burning Wish. Burning Wish is a useful card, but I think having 4 weakens the purpose of the deck not to be reliant on casting spells. I would suggest cutting at least 1. 2-3 Burning Wish should still get the job done.

I think you either need to up the Boseiju or take it out completely. I don't like it because I feel that if you resolve Burning Wish/Intuition, you don't need Boseiju, but if Boseiju is key in your U-based control matchups, I would add at least one more Boseiju.

I understand the inclusion of Nomad Stadium, but since it's off-color, I don't think you should include it. Plus, you already run Zuran Orb. I think you need other lands more, such as another Tranquil Thicket or Mishra's Factory. At least MD, Nomad Stadium in the sb seems fine.

Dark_Cynic87

12-10-2008, 04:01 PM

I have to say that the best tech against moon effects me and my buddy have ever come across is Firecat Blitz. A judgement uncommon.

Rarity : U
Color : R Colors : Red
Casting Cost : X R R
Card Type : Sorcery
Card Text : Put X 1/1 red Cat creature tokens with haste into play. Remove them from the game at end of turn. Flashback -- R R, Sacrifice X Mountains.
Artist : David Martin

You can even burning wish into it. You get a crap-ton of lands out, which is your gameplan in the first place, they drop a moon and you burning wish into Firecat blitz, cast it, flash it back and pwn them.

I don't know if it's ever been mentioned before, but I figured I would throw it out there as it's damn good for getting around moon effects. The decks that I'm aware of that play moon (other than Imperial Painter, which doesn't seem to have a big hold in the format at all any more) run either fetches or Ancient Tombs, which allows you to not need 20 cats to win.

Hope that inspires a bit of discussion

Pce,

--DC

Illissius

12-10-2008, 05:23 PM

Interesting idea. There's also Rude Awakening, which does need a basic Forest under a Moon effect.

proraptor

01-26-2009, 06:28 AM

I use the build with 3 Gamble and 3 Intuition.

I've been thinking of a sideboard like this:
3 Krosan grip
1 Ray of revalation
1 ancient grudge
3 countryside crusher
3 pyroclasm
1 Crush of wurms
3 Open slots

Explanation:
Krosan is voor de hard uncounterable removal against anything like chalice,bloodmoon or Back to basics.

Ray and Ancient grudge are there for the not so costly removal with a edit bonus of Flashback against deck that havent got a real big threat but have ugly enchantments so you can get it out with gamble or the costly way of intuition and flash!

Countryside Crusher of course only against Bloodmoon!!

Pyroclasm With Crush of wurms against every fast aggro decks like goblin and Elves the gameplan is killing of all the small stuf with pyroclasm and killing him of with Crush of wurms old fashioned way!!

The open slots are blanks to me Don't know if I should stick something against combo in, you lose it almost anyway, Or something against extirpate maybe pull from the eternity!

GAUDARD

03-02-2009, 09:41 PM

...
Krosan is voor de hard uncounterable removal against anything like chalice,bloodmoon or Back to basics.
...

Actually Chalice does counter Krosan Grip.

leander?

03-03-2009, 03:25 PM

A Chalice@3 costs 6 mana and is really, really rare and therefore not relevant.

By the way, that quoted sentence actually contains some dutch. Props to you for still getting his pint:)

black_lotus

03-03-2009, 04:23 PM

Has anyone considered Null Rod in the board?

It would give the deck a permanent on board solution to Crypt and Relic, and when coupled with CotV & Grip/Ray in the board, gives you a dedicated SB anti grave hate package.

I was thinking something along the lines of:

4x Chalice of the Void
3x Krosan Grip
3x Null Rod
2x Glacial Chasm
2x Firebolt
1x Ray of Revelation

GGoober

05-15-2009, 01:35 AM

This is my list that I'm currently running:
Nonlands: 21
4 Manabond
3 Exploration
3 Gamble
4 Burning Wish
3 Devastating Dreams
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Life from the Loam

Lands: 39
1 Forest
4 Taiga
1 Savannah
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
4 Maze of Ith
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Riftstone Portal
2 Treetop Villages
2 Nantuko Monastary
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Horizon's Canopy
2 Barbarian Ring
2 Forgotten Cave
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell's Vale (don't have this yet, but going to get one some day)

Sideboard:
1 Devastating Dream
1 Life from the Loam
1 Firespout
1 Hull Breach
1 Riftstone Portal
2 Ray of Revelation
4 Zuran Orb
4 Chalice of the Void/Null Rod

It's tuned to my meta. No one plays Chalice at 2 so Grudge is not as good for me. I'm running 3 Devastating Dreams in the main because it usually ends game like Armageddon does when resolved. Not to mention that it solves the game 1 Magus of the Moon problem easily. Against Blood Moon, I have more trouble, and I board in the second Portal and 2 Ray of Revelation, which I usually wish for to get in the yard asap. If it doesnt, the 3 Devastating Dream allows me to discard portal, and my lands become functional and I can play with Loam again and subsequent burning wishes for Hull Breach or a resolved Ray does the job before I swing for the win.

I'm having trouble with combo and GY-hate though (which land.dec player doesn't?). I was thinking in theory Chalice is good against combo, but it really only slows it down, and if they resolve Ad Nauseam, you lose anyway since they draw into their answers and win that turn. I'm thinking of not giving up on the matchup, and maybe try out Teeg. Is 4-Teeg worthwhile to play against combo? Seems like a good idea and it also stops Leyline (non-opening hand that is). I'm not too worried about Leyline although it really slows me down. Here's my solution to part of the GY/combo MU. I think that Null Rod might simply be much better than Chalice against combo. Firstly Null Rod shuts off Crypt and Relic, so it stops half of the GY hate (Leyline, Extirpate still needs to be answered). Null Rod is better than Chalice@1 against combo that pack ANT since you stop their artifact mana pre and post Ad Nauseam, so they can only rely on Dark Ritual off a land to go off, and the drawback to that for the combo player is you'll cut them of their colored source and prevent them from answering your Null Rod and going off on the same turn.

My idea of my land.dec build is to fight Moon effect with ease, and just handle the worst matchup as best as I can. I run 2 Enlightened tutor main since it tutors for Manabond/Exploration as Gamble does, but more importantly, post side I can grab my Chalice/Rod/Zuran Orbs much easily. I'm also tempted to running 1 Seal of Primordium against Leyline in the side which can be E-tutored. Also, my manabase with 2 Horizon Canopy + Riftstone Portal with consistent discard outlet + 1 Savannah and 4 fetches allow for a good white manabase, to abuse Monastary, but more importantly cast Rays consistently. Any advice against Leyline/GY hate and combo would be appreciated.

Let me know what you think of Teeg. Right now, I'm heading towards 4 Null Rods, which stop pre and post Ad Nauseam mana, and kills off Affinity manabase. I'm pretty sure Chalice is mainly for combo, which is a matchup we lose if we played Chalice anyway since our deck can't kill fast enough although we have a ton of land disruption for them. Also, 4 Zuran Orb is there against combo as well, and against burn. With E tutor, I tend to get it out asap if possible, and gain tons of life off Loam.

Windux

05-15-2009, 10:36 AM

Did anybody thought about Ad nauseum?
Splashing BB is hard, but if you play against non-counter, non-burn decks, you just resolve a Nauseum, draw damn much cards until you draw a Mox Diamond and Manabond.
Then just drop 10-20 Lands into play and you for the beats next turn.

Maybe you can play it in your Sideboard.
I mean, Exploration and Mox Diamonds let's you play it on Turn 3 or 4 (Turn 2 is the optimum, but Exploration first Turn + Mox in the 2nd or First Turn manabond + 2nd Turn Draw Ad naseum seems...you know ;) )

If you want to play AN, you have to cut Dreams and other relevant cards to make the curve as low as possible to draw as much as possible cards. 3-4 ADs + 4 Wishes, 3 Loams, X Gambles gives you a low curve.

gamegeek2

05-15-2009, 12:10 PM

If you want to play AN, you have to cut Dreams and other relevant cards to make the curve as low as possible to draw as much as possible cards. 3-4 ADs + 4 Wishes, 3 Loams, X Gambles gives you a low curve.

Why would you need to cut the curve? Nothing costs more than 2.

That's a great idea by the way.

Dark_Cynic87

05-15-2009, 01:14 PM

You don't need 3-4 ad nauseam. Try 2, as Gamble makes it work. I like this idea, sounds fun. Especially with Manabond.

Pce,

--DC

Mikeleroi

05-16-2009, 05:04 PM

Why would you want to play Ad N. in this deck? Sure, you are going to draw the whole deck, but it´s very difficult you see the card at the starting hand, and you can´t recover it from the graveyard... also, there´s no way to cast it earlier. Just an opinion

MTG-Fan

06-01-2009, 03:47 PM

This is a really cool deck. Does anyone still play with this?

Dino

06-02-2009, 03:05 AM

I played this deck in a 19 man tournament yesterday, here's the list I used:

3 Life from the Loam
4 Manabond
4 Exploration
4 Gamble
4 Burning Wish
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Windswept Heath
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Nantuko Monastery
1 Keldon Megaliths
1 Savannah
1 Forgotten Cave
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Taiga
4 Treetop Village
4 Wasteland
4 Maze of Ith
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Rishadan Port

SideBoard

1 Life from the Loam
1 Reverent Silence
3 Krosan Grip
1 Hull Breach
1 Firespout
1 Devastating Dreams
2 Firebolt
1 Ray of Revelation
4 Zuran Orb

Round 1: I was paired up against a variant of Dead Guy w/ Gofy and deeds.
I keep a hand of exploration, gamble, and utility lands; and he plays duress to grab my exploration. I topdeck an exploration, gamble for loam and win shortly after. Game two I side in 3 krosan grips and take out 3 ports. I keep a hand with treetop village as my only green source, 3 wastelands, exploration, gamble, and a factory. I try it and he plays turn 1 Ashenmoor Gouger. I play treetop, he wastlands it. I topdeck another treetop, he wastelands it. I get a fetchland for a taiga and cast exploration and later gamble for loam. I then stabalize at 2 and luckily for me he didn't have another wasteland or sinkhole for my chasm and/or maze of iths on several different turns or I would have died. Probably should have mulled that hand.

Round 2: I play against Burn with Ankh of Mishra and Price of Progress maindeck. I take early damage from mogg fanatic and died to a hige price of progress. Game two I board in 3 krosan grips and 4 Zuran Orbs for 4 wastelands, Nantuko Monastery, Keldon Megaliths, Savannah. I Keep 2 Zuran Orb, Exploration, Rishadan Port, Ghost Quarter, Fetch, and Loam. Turn 3 he casts Sulfuric Vortex, I gain 8 life and soon die since I could not find enchantment removal.

Round 3: I play against dragon stompy. He plays turn 1 chalice at 1 and turn 2 chalice at 2. I soon die to an Arc Slogger. I board in 3 Krosan Grips, 1 Hull Breach, 1 Firespout, 1 Devastating Dreams, 2 Firebolts, 1 Ray of Revelation. I keep a hand with fetch, krosan grip, loam, exploration, and 3 other lands. He gets an early blood moon which I grip and later plays a dragon. I had to D.Dreams the dragon for 3 putting me at 1 land and him at 2 chrome moxes. I don't topdeck another land for 3 turns and die to two tauren maulers and a magus of the moon

Round 4: I play against an unsleeved mono black casual deck. Easy win.

I wasn't too happy with my 2-2 performance with this deck considering the majority of the field was blue based control I was unluckly to be paired up with two of this deck's bad matchups.

I have considered cutting the Savannah, monastery, and ray of revelation for the 4th taiga, a 2nd barbarian ring, and the 4th grip. But I do like the usefulness of dredging and playing ray.

bloodted

08-05-2009, 07:03 PM

hey I was just wondering how dose the deck play around graveyard hate, like relic, crypt and maybe lylin? and what do you side in vs the combo match up or the goftsilly match up ?

blueneverfails

08-05-2009, 11:50 PM

hey I was just wondering how dose the deck play around graveyard hate, like relic, crypt and maybe lylin? and what do you side in vs the combo match up or the goftsilly match up ?The one thing you must learn while playing this deck is to play around graveyard hate, which is very simple, all of those cards(cept for leyline at start) give you a chance to cycle loam out of your graveyard, You just need to learn to force them to blow it then go off after. One thing that helps me is I run 1 ray of revelation and 1 grudge main which really helps with that plus I side board more of them. And against combo, Some people just give it up, but If you dont want to do that you can put in chalice in the side, mixed with rashidan port and such you can sometimes not give them a chance to go off. A chalice at 1 and an active port goes a long way against them. plus they run alot of nonbasic soo wasteland hurts. Against goyf silly you need to be more specific, if ur just talking about goyf in general, you run 4 maze of iths......... what more do I need to say, plus you have creatures that block that can easily come back every turn till you draw an ith. This deck never ever has problems with goyf. goose is a pain if they get threshold early and ur struggling to get a creature. but you run like 10-12 soo you just need to draw 1.

Zinch

08-30-2009, 02:22 PM

Lately 2 43 Lands deck have Top8ed in 2 really great tournaments:

6th place in the GenCon (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28700)

2nd place in a 84 men tourney (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28755)

Along other Top8s in minor torunaments (about 25 - 30 men)

I think this is a signal that the deck can do a good performance in the right meta, so it's not dead...

Maybe it's a twist of the meta to a less graveyard hate sidedboards and o low number of blood moon effects... what do you think?

DukeDemonKn1ght

09-12-2009, 04:28 AM

Scute Mob? I don't play this deck, but it seems like if there's one creature that could be worth it for y'all to run, it would be this one: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=95176&d=1252679213

Zinch

09-12-2009, 05:28 PM

Scute Mob? I don't play this deck, but it seems like if there's one creature that could be worth it for y'all to run, it would be this one: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=183502

Scute Mob? No, no in this deck. But I've thinking lately in adding some Bloodghast (obviously playing them from the grave), is so easy to trigger landfall ability. But the "can't block" clause doesn't help. What do you think?

DukeDemonKn1ght

09-13-2009, 04:01 AM

Scute Mob? No, no in this deck. But I've thinking lately in adding some Bloodghast (obviously playing them from the grave), is so easy to trigger landfall ability. But the "can't block" clause doesn't help. What do you think?

Here's what I think: Scute Mob is already in your colors. This seems like the easiest deck in the world to get five lands into play by as early as like... turn two, best case scenario.

Bloodghast requires double black to hard-cast, and I'm pretty sure normal shells of this deck are red/green. Despite the fact that you can't even hard-cast it, it can't grow, it can't block, and in this deck it would be like an infinitely worse version of Mishra's Factory. It's pretty hard to take your dismissal of my suggestion seriously when the card you suggest is as wrong for the strategy as all that. I mean, what's your big plan, discard it to Gamble?

On the other hand, in a deck that plays Manabond, Exploration, Life from the Loam, and a bazillion lands, I still fail to see why you think Scute Mob doesn't have potential for this deck?

I understand the deck runs Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, and it's very important to the strategy. I still think Scute Mob deserves consideration, if not in the main-deck, then in the sideboard. I mean, wouldn't it at least provide a reliable clock in some match-ups where that's previously lacking?

georgjorge

09-13-2009, 05:51 AM

If the deck wants to run creatures, Crusher would probably be better than Scute as it can reach a relevant size earlier (gets his counters on turn three instead of turn four with an Exploration) and supports Life from the Loam.

claudio.r

09-19-2009, 01:45 PM

Is this deck viable without Tabernacle ???

beastman

09-19-2009, 01:52 PM

Not really. Its your only real defense against swarm decks.

Schembo

09-19-2009, 02:07 PM

Just finished a litlle tourney(26 players) with 43 Lands (altought i was playing 42 :P)
Got 3 wins and 2 ties and i was 4th. I win against Landstill, R/G/B Goblins and tempo ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh. Tied with landstill and merfolks

Tabernackle is must in this deck. And glacial chasm helped me win against goblin and tie with merfolks.

DragoFireheart

09-27-2009, 03:51 PM

How much of an impact has Zendikar made on this deck?

Nidd

09-27-2009, 04:29 PM

Not too much, I suppose. Not until this deck runs Crop Rotation, which it should IMO.

Valakut could be a decent 1-of or so.

Shanghi Knights

09-27-2009, 10:20 PM

I've been looking at scute mob from zen and want to do something with it, this looks like one possible shell it could shine in. What do you guys who regularly run the deck think?

DragoFireheart

09-27-2009, 10:32 PM

I've been looking at scute mob from zen and want to do something with it, this looks like one possible shell it could shine in. What do you guys who regularly run the deck think?

Shouldn't be hard to fit in the deck, and hitting 5 lands by turn 5 isn't an issue. Course, Terravore is better due to trample, but the bug isn't graveyard reliant.

4eak

10-04-2009, 09:36 AM

Played a couple variants of 43-lands. I've had a lot of fun with this one. Eh, I don't know if it is any better, but it has been hilarious. I wanted to make Valakut useful (Counterburn fails), but a control deck that is good at getting lands into play can certainly abuse it.

Mana Denial:
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MM] Rishadan Port

Ground Game:
3 [DK] Maze of Ith
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)

Draw and Loam protection:
2 [EVG] Forgotten Cave
2 [EVG] Tranquil Thicket

Mountains/Forests:
4 [R] Taiga
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [GP] Stomping Ground
1 Mountain
1 Forest

Win:
4 [ZEN] Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle

Fancy stuff:
4 [TSP] Vesuva (Usually Taiga or Valakut)

Tempo:
4 [EX] Manabond
4 [US] Exploration

Tutorage/Draw:
4 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [Kel] Gamble

Valakut is like a mana-free, Loamable, Uncounterable, Stackable Seismic Assault. Perhaps winmore. Worth a glance though.

peace,
4eak

Knuckles29

10-06-2009, 11:07 AM

is it very realistic to have 3+ Valakut/Vesuva in play before mountain 6?

(nameless one)

10-23-2009, 08:21 PM

Noob question:

you can put as many lands (let's say 4 lands) in play from your hand if you have Exploration in play, correct?

quicksilver

10-23-2009, 09:36 PM

Noob question:

you can put as many lands (let's say 4 lands) in play from your hand if you have Exploration in play, correct?

What? No. Exploration only allows you to play one additional land per exploration you have out. So if you have one exploration out you can play up to two lands a turn. You would need 3 explorations to be able to play 4 lands a turn.

lorddotm

10-24-2009, 04:20 AM

Could this deck run the Willows Punishing Fire combo?

MMogg

10-24-2009, 04:30 AM

Noob question:

you can put as many lands (let's say 4 lands) in play from your hand if you have Exploration in play, correct?

Perhaps you're thinking of Fastbond (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=745), which is banned in Legacy.

leander?

10-24-2009, 06:57 AM

Could this deck run the Willows Punishing Fire combo?
In a way I think the combo sucks for Legacy. But on the other hand, in this deck you should be able to dredge them all into your grave, recur Grove, activate it and return 2 or 3 Punishing Fires. If you can do that every turn, that'd be nuts. But I'm afraid this situation is not going to occur enough to make those 2 suboptimal cards worth it. Thats the point. They're both not impressive at all on their own, and together they can be very nice, but they're still not going to win you the game immediatly.

CUB3X

11-01-2009, 05:06 PM

I just recently created this deck to bring to a legacy tournament at my local store, however I've been playing it on Workstation for a good amount of time. I am having issues against burn. The only way I see of beating it is getting a really really lucky first game and then SBing a ton of hate second game. So far Nomad Stadium seems the most solid card against them. I have also had some speculation of including the new white landfall enchantment Sunspring Expedition. Any thoughts on this card or anything else to improve the matchup against mono red?

Nidd

11-01-2009, 10:28 PM

Against Burn, Zuran Orb looks like an awesome idea. I suppose it's pretty good SB material, regarding how it can possibly fuck up Storm-Combo and Burn.

DownSyndromeKarl

11-02-2009, 12:21 PM

I main deck Glacial Chasm. SB Zuran Orb. I don't know if its a good move, but I side it in Vs ANT. Each land I sac, means another spell my opponent needs to play in order to go off. If they Empty the Warrens instead, then Chasm saves me there.

lorddotm

11-18-2009, 09:41 AM

I don't play this deck.

But I think that Punishing Fire and Grove of the Burn Willows has a place here.
This is the fastest ramping deck in this format, so if it has a place in Legacy, it would be here. The entire engine is recursive via Life from the Loam. Also, if Fire is dredged, you can easily get it back. It seems like a good alternate engine to Loam.

bowvamp

11-18-2009, 03:37 PM

@lorddotm:
I doubt Punishing Grove or whatever you want to call it is at a power level where it does something in legacy. It certainly isn't helped by the fact that it's strictly worse than Flame Jab in this deck which is a 1 card combo (loam synergizes exactly the same way, except better). Let's just say retrace is better...

Illissius

11-18-2009, 03:47 PM

With Flame Jab, you need 5 mana to deal 1+1 damage: :1::g: to Loam three lands, :r::r: to Jab twice, and one more mana to get the Loam back with a cycling land and bring you full circle.

With one copy of Punishing Fire, you need 1:r::r: to deal 2 damage while your opponent gains 1 life. With N copies of Punishing Fire, the mana and damage get multiplied accordingly, while the life gain remains at 1.

Just for reference.

Domel

11-20-2009, 03:57 AM

Hi,

I'm a new 43.lands player and have problems fighting Progenitus. Wouldn't it be rational to put some additional Glacial Chasms main since it is the only way to beat this guy (or I'm missing something)?

What do you think about it?

chokin

11-20-2009, 05:44 AM

Domel

11-20-2009, 06:28 AM

Can't you just slow the shit out of them via Port and Wasteland and possibly Tabernacle? Waste quasi Time Walks them early on (omit mono NO decks), Port forces them to get an additional land, Tabernacle forces them to have an additional land to keep a green guy in play.

Guess you're right - plan works well against CB decks with progenitus but isn't great against survival/progenitus. Probably it is just worse machup since it has only 6 nonbasic or so.

Also I have a question about SB - how bad it is against ichorid and do we need extra SB cards for it? I run 1 Glacial chasm main + 1 SB (deck-list below) and am thinking about adding LotV / Crypts.

Do you think they are necessary when you don't know the meta?

3 Intuition
3 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
4 Exploration
4 Manabond
4 Mox Diamond

2 Barbarian Ring
4 Maze of Ith
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Rishadan Port
2 Savannah
3 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (have only one :( )
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Tranquil Thicket
2 Treetop Village
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:

1 Ancient Grudge
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Flame Jab
1 Worm Harvest
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Zuran Orb
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm

DownSyndromeKarl

11-20-2009, 09:07 AM

kkoie

11-20-2009, 09:13 AM

Question: I've played this deck in the past, and I've noticed in the last year several lists that run 2 tabernacles rather than just 1. What, exactly, is the advantage of running 2 tabernacles over 1? Is it purely to increase the odds of drawing/dredging into it rather than having to tutor for it?

DownSyndromeKarl

11-20-2009, 10:36 AM

I was wondering that myself. I ran one in my list, and it worked just fine. All I needed was a Manabond on the field and a Glacial Chasm and Life from the Loam in hand or the yard and I was set. The Tabernacle was either a lucky early draw, or a late-game hoser for me, but I never relied on it.

leander?

11-20-2009, 10:49 AM

Also, the re-wording on the errata of Tabernacle stops it from killing Progenitus(suck).
I can´t seem to see why it wouldn´t..

kkoie

11-20-2009, 01:09 PM

I can´t seem to see why it wouldn´t..

It doesn't. But it does have no effect on indestructible creatures.

Domel

11-20-2009, 04:03 PM

idk,the meta im used to is very aggro (elves, merfolk, ichorid, zoo, etc...) so i ran four Chasms main. I dont get why you run Chalice. What's that going to do for you? Also, the re-wording on the errata of Tabernacle stops it from killing Progenitus(suck). Another card i played that did me well was Nantuko Monastary. 4/4 First Striker Man-Land.

Running 4 Chasms main is very interesting and I'll test it for sure. Chalice helps me against Combo but probably running 4 Chasms would be enough (and it gives me more space in SB).
I am not convinced to Monastery - when they pack grave hate against you it is quite useless...

leander?

11-20-2009, 06:48 PM

But it does have no effect on indestructible creatures.
Yeah, I'm aware of that, but even Protection From Fucking Everything isn't thát badass that it makes the Pro.dude indestructible.

Domel

11-21-2009, 04:35 AM

I have another question - when I play Mox Diamond I have to discard a land immediately or I can wait till opp tells me he will not counter and than discard a land?

Thanks

Fuzzy

11-21-2009, 11:04 AM

I have a question for you, guys:

Why this deck plays Mox Diamond? I mean, it looks fine in a heavy Folks w/ B2B or Dragon Stompy meta, but seriously, it's really necessary?

Media314r8

11-21-2009, 11:37 AM

I have a question for you guys:

Why DOES this deck plays Mox Diamond? I mean, it looks fine in a Metagame laden with B2B or Dragon Stompy, but seriously, is it really necessary?

Yes. A free land drop that taps for ANY color of mana, avoids armageddon/devestating dreams, and allows for a T1 loam engine being started is indeed necessary in a deck running 43 lands and a life from the loam engine. Is there any other deck more suited to play it?!?!

EDIT: I'm in ur post, fixing ur grammar.

leander?

11-21-2009, 01:51 PM

..you have to dicard right away. The oracle text clarifies this:
"If Mox Diamond would enter the battlefield, you may discard a land card instead. If you do, put Mox Diamond onto the battlefield. If you don't, put it into its owner's graveyard."
I'm really sorry but that's nonsense. The oracle clarifies that you're wrong.
"If Mox Diamond would enter the battlefield, you may discard a land card.." means that you're choosing wether to discard a land or not at the moment it would be coming into play. Which is after it has been put on the stack and resolved.

Domel

11-22-2009, 03:32 AM

I will ask judge about the mox and post the answer.

@ Media314r8 - +1

@ Fuzzy - Mox gives you a free land drop (any colour of mana is important in 3 colour version). Since the deck runs about 19 colourless/nonmana-giving lands it helps to run the engine smoothly. It is also great when you're on the draw because it gives your manabond/exploration protection from Daze.

@ DownSyndromeKarl - I playtested 2 Chasms main and 1 SB and it worked just fine. I was afraid to run all 4 main because it may cause some mana problems (too many lands giving no mana). Generally 2 main is good enough.

Also Chalice is in my opinion crucial in SB - how you expect to win against ANT? Chasm is great agains Belcher and Ichorid but it does nothing to stop Tendrils of Agony since it causes loss life instead of damage. I would strongly recommend 4 SB.

chokin

11-22-2009, 05:24 AM

FieryBalrog

11-22-2009, 06:24 AM

Someone played a 43 Land deck yesterday. They played vs Bant Thresh+NO and I don't think the guy was able to resolve a NO. He ended up winning via Goyf+2 Trygon Predators and the Noble Hierarch helped with the Tabernacle on the table.

@ Mox Diamond - I think you have to discard it to play it now.

"5/1/2008: If you don't discard a land card, Mox Diamond never enters the battlefield. It won't trigger abilities that look for something entering the battlefield, and you won't get the opportunity to tap it for mana."

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=5193

You may have to click the little + sign to read it.

You're still mis-reading it. The errata is solely in place so that you can't cast Mox Diamond, have it resolve, tap it for mana while the sacrifice trigger is on the stack (original wording was a trigger) and then let it die without discarding a land. They did this precisely so that Mox Diamond wouldn't be Lotus Petals 5-8 for combo.

What it means now is that if you cast Mox Diamond, have it resolve, the discarding a land is a replacement effect for how Mox Diamond comes into play. If you discard a land, it comes into play, if not, it is put in the graveyard without ever being in play.

This has nothing to do with casting Mox Diamond still. You cast it as normal and pass priority. If your Mox is countered, it simply gets countered, if not, you decide to discard or not upon resolution. In order to have the discard be a cost they would have errata'd the Oracle wording to read: "as an additional cost to play MoxDiamond, discard a land."

(see: Devastating Dreams as an example of that).

leander?

11-22-2009, 06:57 AM

I will ask judge about the mox and post the answer.
Ofcourse, if you want to be 100% sure, your best option is to aks a judge. But still, both NesretepNoj and chokin are completely misreading/misinterpreting the oracle text and FieryBalrog illustrates this perfectly. If the Mox is countered you do not need to discard a land.
I'm positive.

DownSyndromeKarl

11-22-2009, 08:49 AM

@Domel: I'm not going back to see if you posted a list or not, but do you run any Riftstone Portal? They're nice for fixing the lack-of-mana issue presented by running Chasm/Maze/Tabernacles.

Aleksandr

11-22-2009, 08:57 AM

Ofcourse, if you want to be 100% sure, your best option is to aks a judge. But still, both NesretepNoj and chokin are completely misreading the oracle text and FieryBalrog illustrates this perfectly. If the Mox is countered you do not need to discard a land.
I'm positive.

Yeah, exactly.

Domel

11-22-2009, 08:58 AM

I don't run them since as long those are not in graveyard they're another colorles mana producer. I get your point with Portals but right now I'm quite happy with the build running 2 Chasm's main and 1 SB.
I will try to organize some playtesting during next couple of days and post down the results + some thoughts.

Media314r8

11-23-2009, 11:59 AM

Does anyone know this deck well enough to re-write/update the primer? I think mox diamond has been adopted, and it seems that there is a consensus that the deck needs either 2x tabernacle or some number of devastating dreams to keep creature swarms at bay. I'm considering building this deck, and would probably opt for the 2x tabernacle package, but this thread is scattered with lists without even a shared consensus about the number duals/fetches, much less the standard/metagame'd utility lands. I feel the core of the deck cannot change much:

4x manabond
4x exploration
4x (3x if burning wish) life from the loam
2-4x gamble

4x mishra's factory
4x maze of ith
4x wasteland
1-2x tabernacle

but the 'flex' utility lands are throwing me for a loop, and I don't really care to devote 10+ hours on each of the hundreds of thousands of permutations of utility lands to decide if I want to run 1x or 2x barb ring, 1x or no keldon megaliths, ect. I've browed the lands decks on deckcheck, and there is even a large discrepancy between the legacy champs deck and the last SCG $5k lists, both major tournaments where lands top8'd. (both lists did run 3x intuition, 2x tabernacle, and 4x mox diamond)

Schembo

11-23-2009, 12:32 PM

Dunno if this help anthing but her's list that take me to 3th in local legacy tourney about 1,5 month ago.

3 Burning Wish
3 Gamble
3 Life from the Loam
1 Worm Harvest

4 Exploration
4 Manabond

2 Barbarian Ring
1 Forest
2 Forgotten Cave
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Maze of Ith
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery
1 Riftstone Portal
4 Rishadan Port
3 Savannah
4 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

SB

3 Ancient Grudge
3 Ray of Revelation
1 Life from the loam
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Gamble
1 Firespout
1 Hull Breach
1 Nostalgic Dreams
1 Reverent Silence
2 Zuran Orb

Got 3th place with 3 wins and 2 draw. I won against tempo ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, Landstill and R/B/g goblins. draw with another landstill (exactly same list that i won, they were team mates) and with merfolks.

Worm harvest and clacial chasm were mvp in both merfolk and goblins match up.

Domel

11-23-2009, 03:53 PM

@ Media314r8 - I guess intuition is better than wish for several reasons:

1- it is an instant which is quite important against control decks
2- although it is one mana more expensive it's CC gives us resistance against Spell Snare and CB
3- You usually play burning Wish for LftL so you spen 2 mana for 1 card. Intuition lets you spend 3 mana for 3 cards (one of them is usually LftL), so it is also a land tutor.
4- Burning wish doesn't allow you to search for Manabond or Exploration.

Sure, playing intuition cuts you from options hiding in SB but deck becomes a lot more consistent with Intuition. The biggest problem running Inu is adding additional colour but I think it is worth it. This is one of the reasons to run Mox Diamonds (besides other I posted earlier).

I run 3 Fetch Lands and this number work good for me. I don't want get my first land sitifled and I really don't want to loose much life due to fetches.

Megaliths are just too slow and you cannot use them several times in one turn.

Glacial chasms are a must - they say Ichorid bye bye and can actually win against belcher + they help with almost every deck (exceptions are High tide, Nauseum and Painter). This is one of the reasons I run only one Tabernacle (can always find it with intuition).

kinda

12-07-2009, 04:09 PM

Out of curiousity did anyone make a list that added the valakult/scapeshift combo? It avoids graveyard hate and somewhat helps the combo matchup because i added trinisphere. Yes it has dissynergy with loam/exploration but exploration is played first if you get it in your opening hand (or with sufficient lands if you get it later), and the one extra mana inconveniance in regards to loam in very small in comparison to the amount of time it can buy you against combo/burn/thresh/zoo...etc...
On that note...are there any decent anti tendrils or dredge strategies, or do you just punt the matchup?

Possible List:

4 Burning Wish
4 Life from the Loam
4 Exploration
4 Trinisphere
2 Scapeshift
1 Worm Harvest

4 Treetop Village
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Taiga
4 Stomping Grounds
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Maze of Ith
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Mountain
2 Brushland
1 Valakult the Molten Pinnacle

SB:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Firespout
1 Shattering Spree
1 Gamble
1 Scapeshift
1 Demonfire
1 Living Wish
1 Boseiju

Thomas1991

12-07-2009, 05:17 PM

leander? is right about the mox diamond i'm positive.

I'm playing this deckfor a long time now. made it 2 time top 8 in the last couple of months. (40 to 70 people tournaments).

I think we have to stop wasting time on the combo matchup, we are a boardcontrol deck without countermagic and without a posibility to race combo.

we should concentrate more on back to basics and blood moon.

4#Manabond
4#Exploration
3#Life from the Loam
4#Burning Wish
4#Gamble
2#seismic assault
2#devastating dreams
4#Taiga
4#Wooded Foothills
3#stomping ground
4#forgotten cave
1#The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4#Wasteland
4#valakut, the molten pinacle
8#Mountain
4#Maze of Ith
1#barbarian ring

// sideboard
1#Devastating Dreams
4#volcanic fallout
1#Life from the Loam
1#Reverent Silence
2#Krosan Grip
1#life from the loam
1#scapeshift
4#chalice of the void

as you can see; more basics and 2 kills that kill's the opponent without tapping your lands or attacking. (and a urza's factory in the test slot)

valakut kills with an active back to basics, seismic assault kills with an active back to basics en blood moon.

with 11 possible loams seismic assault is perfect for this deck, it's a kill and removal and with this manabase we can support it.

as you can see i dropped 6 lands (including rishadan port)
and play devastating dreams, why?

how much i like rishadan port it's a short turn solution and because we dont kill with creatures anymore we can afford to play less lands and more good stuff.

i mean i loved mishra's factory but i hated treetop village. the only reason you play treetop village above another man land is because treetop does one thing that other man lands can't Tap:G (dryad arbor not included because he sucs.)

if anyone has a good idea just name it.

RexFTW

12-09-2009, 10:52 AM

On that note...are there any decent anti tendrils or dredge strategies, or do you just punt the matchup?

Trinisphere pretty much hoses these decks as well. Ichorid usually only plays about 14 lands so trinisphere says NO SPELLS FOR U.

Thomas1991

12-09-2009, 02:21 PM

btw why does everyone think that glacial chasm is great agains ant.

tendrills sais life loss.

just thought you guys should know ;)

workingdude

12-09-2009, 05:21 PM

Will the new manlands offer anything?

In particular, how is the prospect of dual manlands with higher costs?

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=204793

DownSyndromeKarl

12-10-2009, 12:28 AM

btw why does everyone think that glacial chasm is great agains ant.

tendrills sais life loss.

just thought you guys should know ;)

its good against Empty the Warrens.

leander?

12-10-2009, 01:28 AM

Even against EtW it's way too slow (unless you've got a Loam and a manabond right away).

Dm225

12-15-2009, 12:33 PM

How competitive is this deck without the blue splash for Intuition?

Mr.C

12-15-2009, 09:57 PM

Why doesnt the deck play Boseiju? Wouldnt that greatly improve the CB matchup?

Thomas1991

12-16-2009, 12:35 AM

4 Manabond
4 Exploration
4 Burning Wish
4 Gamble
3 Life from the Loam
1 Barbarian Ring
2 Crop Rotation

lands
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
0/1 scalding tarn
2/3 Stomping Ground
4 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
8 Mountain
4 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland
4 Forgotten Cave
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All/ghost quater/dust bowl/forest/mountain/fetch/urza's factory

sideboard
4#Devastating Dreams
1#Life from the Loam
1#Reverent Silence
1#Scapeshift/open slot
4#Thorn of Amethyst
4#Chalice of the Void

boardplan vs combo

-4 maze of ith
-1 glacial chasm
-1 tabernacle
-1 barbarian ring
-1 boseiju
-2 crop rotation
-1 mana bond

+ 3 devastating dreams
+ 4 chalice
+ 4 thorn of amathyst

against merfolk/other aggro you just board 3 devastating dreams

-1 bosiju
-1 wasteland
-1 forgotten cave/burning wish

now the combo matchup is even winable although you need 11 SB slots voor combo.

every other matchup you should be able to win.

I'm very positive of the valakut build, i think it's the way to go.

no STP able kills, you can kill and still go insane with loam (turn 4 a 5 i'm most of the time able to loam 3 times each turn)

you can when with an active B2B.

you still win the matches you used to win.

your manabase is stabalized a lot.

Serbitar

01-22-2010, 04:10 AM

What do you think of this card:

http://www.germagic.de/news/treasurehunt.jpg

blaat

01-22-2010, 05:54 AM

What do you think of this card:

http://www.germagic.de/news/treasurehunt.jpg

don't see anything, but you mean this one:

http://i48.tinypic.com/1zwke48.jpg

Pretty nuts!
Better than Mulch if you play that at all.
It always grabs a exploration/loam etc and all lands before that.
Even if you only reveal a non-land card it is still nice.

And it fixes a bad combo's with Land's Edge and the new non-land filter card.

AcidFiend

01-22-2010, 07:24 AM

Treasure Hunt is RIDICULOUS in this deck :O

I swear Tabernacle will go up in price as more people want to get on board.

Schembo

01-22-2010, 07:46 AM

Not confirmed yet but this one is nice addition to 43 lander too.

Bojuka Bog
Land
Bojuka Bog enters the battlefield tapped.
: Add b to your mana pool.
When Bojuka Bog enters the battlefield, remove all cards in target player's graveyard from the game.

4eak

01-22-2010, 08:22 AM

Bog, for the effect, is impressively costed for decks which use black mana or have land-tutoring (playing a land has an opportunity cost, which is why non-black or non-land tutoring decks might prefer Relic/Crypt/Trap, opting to play on-color land instead). Unfortunately, the effect, which isn't instant speed (outside of Crop Rotation/KoTR/etc.) is not impressive against the decks where GY-hate is so necessary.

Treasure Hunt does seem more appealing though. I'm not entirely sure how difficult it would be to splash blue. I like it way more than Mulch though. When compared to alternatives, Treasure Hunting into a non-Loam spell is benefit of this card. Burning Wish and Gamble are perfect for targeting Loam, but the deck has few ways to safely tutor into other spells. Treasure Hunt can put Manabond and Exploration into your hand, and isn't as risky as Gamble (although Gamble can guarantee which card you find) or as inflexible as other tutor options. It would be fantastic to consistently find Manabond or Exploration, which are the complementary Tempo-boosting cards to this decks card advantage engine. Certain sideboard cards can also be found more effectively with Treasure Hunt as well. I'm not sure if it is worth playing, but I think it is a powerful effect which merits some testing.

peace,
4eak

flrn

01-22-2010, 08:40 AM

So many Decks already have splashed blue for Intuition. That's not a problem.

DownSyndromeKarl

01-22-2010, 08:41 AM

I've been seeing more and more of these decks run Intuition, so they're already splashing blue. I'm not sure if this would replace it. I'm more of a gambling man than an intuitive one.

EDIT: Beat me to it flrn!

UrDraco

01-22-2010, 09:51 AM

I doubt this card is better than gamble in 43 lands but I am beginning to wonder whether or not it is better than intuition. While I like that intuition is an instant that can basically tutor three cards, this costs one less and guarantees you get to draw a non-land card. This whole set is looks like it is going to have a lot of potential for 43 lands. The new manlands are a little dissapointing though.

jhhdk

01-22-2010, 10:08 AM

Wonder if this card could make us see 50+ land deck.

Dissolution

01-22-2010, 10:29 AM

I think the biggest problem with Treasure Hunt is that it's inconsistent. Yeah, we could hit 10 lands and then Exploration and then it's godly, but we're also just as likely to hit a Gamble one card down.

I don't think it can be run while we're 'only' running 40 land.
If we went down to Treasure Hunt, Exploration, Manabond, and Life from the Loam, that's slightly better, but then we lose the tutoring power of Intuition/Gamble/Burning wish. If we include those, Treasure Hunt just gets weaker.

-T

psu42

01-22-2010, 10:40 AM

This deck is best when running Gamble and Intuition, which means you are also running Exploration, Manabond, Life from the Loam, and Mox Diamond.

Yeah, you play like 43 (plus or minus) lands. How many cards are you really expecting to draw with Treasure Hunt? I mean, maybe you get really lucky and get 5, or maybe you don't and get 0 or just 1. If you are running this you are cutting something else and strictly odds-wise you are looking at 2-3 cards. Dredging life from the loam gets you 3 cards, which is pretty much the same odds as Treasure Hunt.

This card pretty much only dilutes your deck or changes the dynamics to strictly inferior than they are now. This card doesn't really fit or do anything that the decks needs.

blaat

01-22-2010, 02:11 PM

This card pretty much only dilutes your deck or changes the dynamics to strictly inferior than they are now. This card doesn't really fit or do anything that the decks needs.

truth...

Tested it a lot and half the time I draw 1 or 2 cards including the non-land.
That was in a 44-land.deck.

yeah draw 14 with manabond active is nice, but it happens like 2% of the games.

Savo

01-22-2010, 02:22 PM

The new card is VERY strong to me.

The biggest problem of this deck is that, while being in good shape against several decks in game one, it dies from ichorid-dedicated graveyard hate, or whatever stops the life from the loam engine.

What this deck needed is a not graveyard-dependant alternative engine, and the new card could do it.

Forbiddian

01-22-2010, 04:24 PM

Just to be more complete:

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z5/Forbiddian/EstimatedProbabilitiesforCardsDrawn.jpg

It assumes that you're drawing into a fresh deck of 60 cards (which is about average... although if you open with like 4 non-land, you should expect to draw more cards.

mada7

01-22-2010, 04:25 PM

I did a bit of testing with the effectiveness of Treasure Hunt by going through a normal playthrough with 44 lands and watching my average dredges with life from the loam. The results are generally not better than just using Loam on its own. Doesnt seem worth it to splash blue just for it. If anything intuition is a superior choice as it is more consistent.

The valakut build is interesting. The second version seems to have a lot of potential to it and is worth testing a little further against some of the common archetypes

Savo

01-23-2010, 04:30 AM

. The results are generally not better than just using Loam on its own.

true, the fact is that in the post-side games more often than not they will hate your graveyard/extirpate/meddling mage Life from the loam, leaving you with a... deck full of lands.

the keyword for Treasure hunt is: alternative, hate proof, engine.

mada7

01-23-2010, 10:25 AM

true, the fact is that in the post-side games more often than not they will hate your graveyard/extirpate/meddling mage Life from the loam, leaving you with a... deck full of lands.

the keyword for Treasure hunt is: alternative, hate proof, engine.

Its not particularly hate proof here. We are talking about a splash color so unless we devote a lot more to blue than what any build has so far there is no guarantee that we will be able to establish blue well enough and fast enough without exposing life from the loam to graveyard hate. Graveyard hate is extremely fast and to get to blue safely without loam would be difficult to say the least.

We also have no reliable way to get to Treasure Hunt multiple times other than Gamble but that is not reliable enough to use in place of loam.

Easier way to deal with graveyard hate are early chalices set to 1 and/or 0 or Krosan Grip. Medling Mage will just eat a barbarian ring. AS long as you can anticipate what hate will get boarded in you can play around it fairly easily

Savo

01-23-2010, 12:43 PM

Its not particularly hate proof here. We are talking about a splash color so unless we devote a lot more to blue than what any build has so far there is no guarantee that we will be able to establish blue well enough and fast enough without exposing life from the loam to graveyard hate. Graveyard hate is extremely fast and to get to blue safely without loam would be difficult to say the least.

A good solution could be to play only blue and green, and maybe white as a secundary splash... obviously that would mean playing exploration, manabond, life from the loam, and treasure hunt as only nonland cards.:rolleyes:

We also have no reliable way to get to Treasure Hunt multiple times other than Gamble but that is not reliable enough to use in place of loam.
Treasure hunt has good chance to bring you another copy of himself, played in a 16spells deck, four of which being Treasure hunt...:rolleyes:

Easier way to deal with graveyard hate are early chalices set to 1 and/or 0 or Krosan Grip. Medling Mage will just eat a barbarian ring. AS long as you can anticipate what hate will get boarded in you can play around it fairly easily
Ok but...
As you know,
Leyline and ravenous trap are unstoppable by chalice, and chalice itself is useless on the draw vs crypt and relic, while if you start it could get a Fow however. Just to say that chalice is not a perfect solution to all our troubles.
If it was, 43 land would have been the best deck in the format: a deck that would lose only from combo.

A better resiliance to graveyard hate is the only thing that makes this deck a better option - for someone - than ichorid. Otherwise play ichorid! It kills everyone on turn three... :laugh:

mada7

01-23-2010, 04:06 PM

A good solution could be to play only blue and green, and maybe white as a secundary splash... obviously that would mean playing exploration, manabond, life from the loam, and treasure hunt as only nonland cards.:rolleyes:

Treasure hunt has good chance to bring you another copy of himself, played in a 16spells deck, four of which being Treasure hunt...:rolleyes:

Ok but...
As you know,
Leyline and ravenous trap are unstoppable by chalice, and chalice itself is useless on the draw vs crypt and relic, while if you start it could get a Fow however. Just to say that chalice is not a perfect solution to all our troubles.
If it was, 43 land would have been the best deck in the format: a deck that would lose only from combo.

A better resiliance to graveyard hate is the only thing that makes this deck a better option - for someone - than ichorid. Otherwise play ichorid! It kills everyone on turn three... :laugh:

In a 44 land deck I was checking how often I came across non-land cards and on average I dug no more than loam does and there is no guarantee of what that non-land card will be so it is not any more likely to get a treasure hunt than it is any of the other nonland cards.

Chalice is not a be all end all solution but it stops a fair bit of the problems this deck encounters. Ravenous trap is a problem but leyline can be dealt with by Ray of Revelation or Krosan Grip. Ravenous Trap isnt even that great a play against this deck really as it will only ever take out loam or the cards that you would grab with it but never both.

Cutting red and not adding in intuition gives you no guarantee of ever seeing a Treasure Hunt without aggressive mulganing. You might have a bit more resiliency against graveyard hate but you will struggle much more with consistency

frogboy

01-23-2010, 05:08 PM

Just to be more complete:

snip

It assumes that you're drawing into a fresh deck of 60 cards (which is about average... although if you open with like 4 non-land, you should expect to draw more cards.

statistical nit: If you're calculating Treasure Hunt EV, bear in mind that when you cast it, you know that you have drawn two lands and Hunt.

Forbiddian

01-23-2010, 05:23 PM

statistical nit: If you're calculating Treasure Hunt EV, bear in mind that when you cast it, you know that you have drawn two lands and Hunt.

Good point, I should have done the table from n-2/59. That's one of those things that seems so obvious once someone points it out. I hope... I might just be retarded.

Anyway, the point is you're drawing between 2-4 cards from TH, which is better than Mulch, but not a ton better. As IBA pointed out, Mulch is far out of playable, so it'd need a huge improvement to be worth playing.

AcidFiend

02-01-2010, 11:12 PM

What is the worst card you want to see from your opponents Games 2/3? This deck seems so strong because not many decks can hate it out.

Does Winter Orb do much to ruin your day? I'm just asking because I seem to run into a lot of this deck online and need something out of my SB to compete.

Hopo

02-02-2010, 02:06 AM

Back to Basics, Blood Moon and Leyline of the Void seem to be the most painful cards against lands. I pack large amount of Ray of Revelation and Ancient Grudge to survive through those. People also use Flame Jab to get rid of Magus of the Moon.

Has anyone tested Treasure Hunt enough to give some sort of breakdown about it? I'm thinking of a side plan where I side out loams and replace them with Treasure Hunt to fight the graveyard hate everybody brings in. That is if TH seems to have some actual value in game.

Philipp2293

02-02-2010, 03:10 AM

What would people think of such a SB in an unknown meta:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Zuran Orb
3 Krosan Grip
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Revelation

No dedicated Combo hate here, I rather put the Orb in here, with each Land you sacrifice you up the storm count by one, I guess an early manabond with orb could pose some troubles for storm combo, no? Grudges + Rays to have 5 options against both Artifact/Enchantment hate against aus.

Antonius

02-05-2010, 06:14 AM

anyone ever consider running black for Entomb and Raven's crime? Wurm Harvest also seems good.

Gocho

02-05-2010, 06:47 AM

You can play gamble instead of Entomb and play Worm Harvest for 2GGG. I don't think that playing Raven's crime would improve the deck if you need to add black only for them.

Antonius

02-05-2010, 07:15 AM

raven's crime seems good vs combo, no?

Mictlantecuhtli

02-05-2010, 10:55 AM

Hopo

02-08-2010, 02:57 AM

raven's crime seems good vs combo, no?

It's a bit on the slow side. So I call no. It works in It's the Fear -kind of decks, since they have enough permission to stall the opponent and start discarding them to death. It also requires heavy commitment to black, which isn't even played except in marginal builds. Of course you can try it, but it requires a lot more modifications than just adding the card itself.

Antonius

02-09-2010, 02:57 AM

Hopo

02-09-2010, 03:15 AM

anyone considered Upheaval as an anti-enchantress/slow deck card? Upheaval >> Manabond, discard the world back into play seems like a strong play, esp. since you get to dominate their mana with ports all over again.
Doesn't that sound a bit narrow? Enchantress? What is wrong with Reverent Silence/Anarchy/Firespout/other actually castable spells?

I think the blue splash is neither standardized nor mandatory. Eternal gardens is a different story then, as is the possibility of using Treasure Hunt. Gamble is hideously good for tutoring anything, and I'm against playing Mox Diamonds just in order to maximize the land count. 4 Manabond, 4 Exploration, 4 Burning Wish, 3 Life from the Loam is a ridiculously good package on it's own.

I've been using a single copy of Recoup to retrieve dredged Wishes/Gambles back. So far so good. It's also marginally helpful against discard. Not like that usually is a problem.

Antonius

02-09-2010, 03:46 AM

I've been experimenting with Mystical Tutor recently and I find it to be...nice. it gives the same -1 CA that gamble does, for the same cost, but allows you to fetch certain silver bullets that don't tolerate the graveyard much, like the reverent silence you mentioned.

Also the problem with reverent silence and anarchy is that Karmic Justice blows up your whole board or next turn they play replenish and you're back to square one. Also, how is upheaval not castable? You're saying you cant get to 7 mana in a 43 land deck? In a matchup where your opponent has zero mana denial and wins on turn 10 or later and has zero countermagic?

Upheaval goes around KJ and puts you in a position to dominate their mana all over again. I've been playing a heavy blue splash with Mystical and Tolaria West as tutors and I think that package is really strong. While mystical isn't as versatile as gamble, Tolaria West is a recurring tutor that can get most every answer you'd need, in any matchup.

Hopo

02-09-2010, 05:09 AM

I guess it comes to Gamble getting anything and Tutor getting, hmm.. Loam and Gamble + possible 1-ofs? Tolaria West is quite mana intensive and absolutely needs heavier commitment on blue. I want to use my mana for activating manlands and using Ports. 3cc sorcery-speed tutor quite doesn't sound too appealing when you compare it to Gamble.

Mystical Tutor in my opinion also contributes to making the deck vulnerable to Chalice of The Void. Basically all the business cards besides loam we want to see in opening hand are shut down by Chalice for 1 and that is the reason I also want to advocate playing Burning Wish or Intuition, but I'm not experienced with the blue splash so I leave that to others.

About Upheaval being difficult to cast: I was referring to the need of double blue, which is two blue mana more than this (moxless) GRW-build has access to. It might work for the blue version, but IMO that is just a different deck.

I usually side in some form of graveyard hate when playing against enchantress to nullify Replenish. Bojuka Bog is the newest toy in lands' arsenal. Karmic Justice is bollocky, but if they are in postition to nuke your whole board due to your sweeper, you were not going to win that game anyway. After all, you are the premiere permanent deck. I'm more afraid of Sterling Grove, as it makes removal of Wheel of Sun and Moon, KJ or any other obstacle on your way a pain between your buttocks.

Titan

02-09-2010, 03:30 PM

Has anybody tried the Mindslaver build? It made top 8 in three recent German GPTs:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=32078
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31838
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31827

Basically, it uses Tolaria West as tutor instead of Gamble, and going up to 4 Intuitions. It also incorporates Gargoyle Castle and maindeck Engineered Explosives to recurr with Academy Ruins. I don't actually play this deck or follow this thread much, but i came across those lists and it seemed to me a nice innovation so wanted to mention it.

This build is awesome!

Gargoyle castle rocks, it's a little mana intensive but a 3/4 flyer every turn is nice and you don't have to commit more mana every turn if you don't want to

I run a crucible instead of the mindslaver, 12 mana is just silly when compared to just wasteland/ghost quarter every turn, I don't see a reason to try and ruin thier game by taking thier turn when we already have them locked out

I was a little concerned about the loss of gamble but the 1 card possibly provided by gamble is almost never as good as just playing intuituon and setting up a real engine, you should be playing intuiton turn 2 most of the time anyways, you shouldn't need to gamble for manabond/exploration anyways, why would anyone keep an opening hand without one?

intuition allows a lot more silver bullet style approach and is testing very well so far

Does anyone not run a ghost quarter now?
The basic mountains from zoo/burn are a real pita without it, they try to PoP you out of the game every upkeep that you don't have chasm, recurring glacial chasm only works for so long post board when they get tormods etc

Parcher

02-10-2010, 12:17 AM

anyone ever consider running black for Entomb and Raven's crime? Wurm Harvest also seems good.

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31062

mada7

02-12-2010, 02:19 PM

4 Manabond
4 Exploration
4 Burning Wish
4 Gamble
3 Life from the Loam
1 Barbarian Ring
2 Crop Rotation

lands
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
0/1 scalding tarn
2/3 Stomping Ground
4 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
8 Mountain
4 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland
4 Forgotten Cave
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All/ghost quater/dust bowl/forest/mountain/fetch/urza's factory

sideboard
4#Devastating Dreams
1#Life from the Loam
1#Reverent Silence
1#Scapeshift/open slot
4#Thorn of Amethyst
4#Chalice of the Void

I ran a build very similar to this but with 2 glacial chasms in the deck and got a top 8 finish in a 40 player tournament thursday evening. This is definitely a build worth expanding on. I played goblins, elves and UG counter control (no mongoose or countertop). This deck has a much easier time getting through bigger creatures than the manlands version. Glacial Chasm is definitely the MVP of this build as it allows the deck to trigger valakut continuously while keeping the opponent completely locked out of the game.

I didnt play any combo decks to test the effectiveness of it but this seems to be a bit more resilient to graveyard hate overall with more cycling lands making it easier to protect life from the loam.A downside is that youre even more reliant on getting a manabond or exploration to stick on the board and there arent any proper answers to blood moon. I may have to put in a couple basic forests somewhere or get riftstone portal back in the deck.

Titan

02-12-2010, 03:54 PM

this deck blows hard against counterbalance, what do we do against them just pray for krosan grip?

they always have daze/FoW for exploration/manabond, daze is easy but FoW blows as with most decks

dahcmai

02-12-2010, 10:36 PM

I'm not sure why people are leaning so far away from the 43 land builds and going to more of a 32 land build. It opens you up for counters and the older ones had no problem with that. You just man-landed them to death and never bothered to cast anything. I like the new tricks and all, but I have been going slowly back to the heavier man-land version.

Antonius

02-19-2010, 12:37 AM

anyone ever experiment with Call the Skybreaker? Seems strong, because its a faster clock than Gargoyle Castle and it works even under a moon effect.

questionmuppet

03-12-2010, 05:06 PM

I have been testing this deck with varied success and was wondering if anyone more experienced has any suggestions. I am pretty much sold on Intuition over Burning Wish because it is more powerful in the abstract (tutor for three cards instead of one) and because it enables ridiculous Academy Ruins shenanigans. I've been playing around with a few singleton silver bullets in the main and board to be fetched up w/ Intuition. Theoretically they should improve inevitability in particular match-ups, but whether they do still remains to be seen.

37 Lands:

Tools:
4x Manabond
4x Exploration
4x Life from the Loam
4x Mox Diamond
3x Gamble
3x Intuition
1x Engineered Explosives

Meat:
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Maze of Ith
4x Tranquil Thicket
4x Green Fetch
2x Taiga
2x Tropical Island
1x Savannah
1x Forest
2x Barbarian Ring
1x Treetop Village
1x Raging Ravine
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Academy Ruins

Sideboard:
4x Zuran Orb
3x Krosan Grip
1x Ray of Revelation
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Flame Jab
1x Oblivion Stone
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Riftstone Portal
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Ghost Quarter

A few explanations:

Raging Ravine: Ends the game fast if you need to. He can swing into large creatures, and sometimes you can double-activate him or maze him after he gets a counter. Still casts all your spells unlike Nantuko Monastery.
Savannah: Allows you to hard-cast Ray of Revelation post-board.
Ruins/Explosives: One of the reasons I think Intution is so strong; some decks just can't beat this. Also prevents decking.
Riftstone Portal/Flame Jab: I think I'm still a dog to moon effects; this might not be enough but I've yet to test those match-ups sufficiently.
Crucible: I'm not sure how good this is. Sometimes I side it in for a loam to mess up their graveyard hate. (They can crypt/extirpate lands but not the engine itself.) It's also good against Ground Seal and Counterbalance lock.
Oblivion Stone: This is my grasping-at-straws attempt to answer Progenitus. In my testing that stupid hydra has been the bane of the deck. They land early hierarchs and fetch out basics, so its hard to keep them off of 4 mana. Once he lands they just Force your Life targeting Glacial Chasm to swing for a billion. This allows you to get him off the board permanently after Ruinsing enough to get through their countermagic but its obviously slow. I have also thought about including Ensnaring Bridge.

O Stone is also really good against Enchantress. Blow up their board and Bojuka Bog them to shut down Replenish.

Thoughts, suggestions?

Tao

03-14-2010, 09:13 AM

anyone ever experiment with Call the Skybreaker? Seems strong, because its a faster clock than Gargoyle Castle and it works even under a moon effect.

CtS is a decent idea. It gets around a lot of things: Counterbalance, Moons, Iona Green, it should definetely be tested.

mchainmail

03-16-2010, 09:36 AM

anyone ever experiment with Call the Skybreaker? Seems strong, because its a faster clock than Gargoyle Castle and it works even under a moon effect.

I've been using it to get around Counterbalance. It also answers Tombstalker well.

What are people's thoughts on going to 2x Tabernacle (if you have them available)

Mictlantecuhtli

03-16-2010, 12:05 PM

What are people's thoughts on going to 2x Tabernacle (if you have them available)

I find one is enough, but it's a meta choice really. I run Tolaria Wests so it is always easy to fecth it when i need it, but it is perfectly fine to run one MD and one SB (or even 2 main) in non-blue lists to increase their chances of seeing it.

dahcmai

03-22-2010, 01:21 AM

I'm curious on one thing. How bad usually is the match up against Team America? It showed me what a powerhouse it can be last weekend and since I have never played against it before I wondered how bad this is normally. It tore me a new one in the finals no less. Then he boarded into Helm/Leyline combo and I didn't have much for that either even after I saw it on a scouting.

I play the blue version like the SCG 5k one except I run Crucibles, Stax, and a few other touches main. Basically the same though. I hate the Mindslaver btw, I tried it and it's just not worth it other than it's a fun kill, but who needs those.

Tao

03-22-2010, 03:53 AM

The 2nd Tabernacle depends on how much Tutors you play. WIth Intuition and Tolaria West it is certainly not needed, but if you play a straight build, like with Mulch or Burning Wish, I would say that 2 Tabernacles are a good decision.
Against Team America you should be ahead in G1. You both try to attack the opponent's Mana Base, but you just have more stuff and it is unlikely (not impossible) that they Mana Screw you. They have only a few creatures, so Maze of Ith is really good and they also don't have a long term solution to Loam. Their creatures are big, though, and they might Wasteland the Maze twice to get 10 points through. Overall I would cakll this a favorbale G1, especially because their Mana Base is weak and you should be able to get them there.
For G2 it depends on their sideboard. If they transform into a weird combo deck and draw Leyline into the Opener you will probably lose to the combination of fast kill + Yard hate. If they don't get it into their opening hand, they will lose about 95% because they would have to get to 2BB which should be easy to prevent, especially because they don't have any other relevant SB cards and their hand polluted with Helms and drawn Leylines.

RogueMTG

03-26-2010, 09:12 AM

Has anyone else seen this...?

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=103352&d=1269575997

Mictlantecuhtli

03-26-2010, 09:37 AM

I'm really looking forward to testing Realms Uncharted, however, i'm still not entirely sure what do i want to take out for it. It certainly won't be Intuition because the ability to find Life from the Loam is too important in the deck. My other tutor in the deck is Tolaria West but that's a land and i'm a bit reluctant to further decrease the number of lands (running 38 at the moment).

That said, this card will obviously have a place in some incarnation of the deck and i'm pre-ordering a playset as soon as i can.

Philipp2293

03-26-2010, 09:51 AM

Hm, Gifts Ungiven costs one more mana and let's you also tutor for LftL, so I'm not sold on this one.

DownSyndromeKarl

03-26-2010, 10:07 AM

Gifts is also blue. I prefer the build to be GRw. If you need Life, use Gamble. This works well for getting Barbarian Ring, Glacial Chasm, a needed man-land, Tabernacle, even a color fix if you want to play a Ring or Gamble. I wouldn't run more than two, maybe as a one-off.

dahcmai

03-27-2010, 01:10 PM

I doubt I will use it at all. It has one fatal flaw. It doesn't get Loam.

When I play Lands, I want an opening hand of Exploration (1 or 2) or a Manabond. I'm quite happy if I see that. Next best is to have that hand with an Intuition or Loam in it. Intuition since I will be only concerned with getting Loam online.

This new card doesn't help this strategy at all. Gamble is actually better for this purpose. If you want to toss blue out, I guess you could use it, but I still would sooner go with Gamble. I personally think Blue is here to stay since the stunts you can do with Academy Ruins more than earns it's spot and intuition is exactly what you need in a tutor.

I can easily see it being used in those versions that run more on Valukut than Loam though. It's not great, but it will provide you a slow setup. I'll pick them up for Standard though. It's quite good for that and might even find a quick use in those decks than can handle Dark Depths/Grim Discovery.

tb249606

03-27-2010, 10:46 PM

this card just doesnt fit into this deck. everything that you could use it, for intuition does plus more. i can see it being an interesting budget option if the price of intuition rises, but other than that the deck is already so strong without the inclusion, that the testing needed to find out this card is just a worse intuition just isnt worth the time to me. i could see this deck being included in a new from of land control deck that runs treasure hunt maybe and more silver bullet lands. ill have to try that out

Pastorofmuppets

03-27-2010, 11:56 PM

What are the thoughts on Spitting Image, since we're talking about cards with Retrace?

dr.knockers

03-31-2010, 04:10 AM

IMO call the skybreaker and worm harvest are way better retrace cards.

mchainmail

03-31-2010, 10:35 AM

IMO call the skybreaker and worm harvest are way better retrace cards.

And call of the skybreaker can be cast through blood moon, trades with Tombstalker, doesn't get countered by counterbalance, etc.

Spitting Image seems too dependent on other things, like them having creatures worth copying and you not dying to other effects.

Dark Ritual

04-01-2010, 05:01 PM

throst54

04-01-2010, 05:48 PM

I've been out of magic for nearly a year now, and thus im pretty far behind on this thread- so im sorry if someone else already made this suggestion and it got shot down.
Treasure Hunt finds the bombs that you dont want dredged into your gy, can potentially draw you a ton of lands, and may arguably be better than mulch.
I'll try to play some games with it to give a better argument to play it... or confirm it isnt good.

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/wwk/42.jpg

evanmartyr

04-02-2010, 10:20 PM

37 Lands:

Tools:
4x Manabond
4x Exploration
4x Life from the Loam
4x Mox Diamond
3x Gamble
3x Intuition
1x Engineered Explosives

Meat:
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Maze of Ith
4x Tranquil Thicket
4x Green Fetch
2x Taiga
2x Tropical Island
1x Savannah
1x Forest
2x Barbarian Ring
1x Treetop Village
1x Raging Ravine
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Academy Ruins

Sideboard:
4x Zuran Orb
3x Krosan Grip
1x Ray of Revelation
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Flame Jab
1x Oblivion Stone
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Riftstone Portal
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Ghost Quarter

Thoughts, suggestions?

Looks solid, couple questions.

1: Why run Treetop Village at all if you're running Raging Ravine? It comes online sooner, sure, but it doesn't tap for 2 colors and it doesn't provide nearly the amount of inevitability that Ravine does.
2: Have you been happy with your 1-of lands? Could you see going up to 2 of some of them, or dropping them entirely?
3: How do you sideboard with this deck? I know what cards are obviously hosers for stuff, but what would you reccommend taking out in certain MUs?

mchainmail

04-03-2010, 01:17 AM

What are peoples opinions on that new 2G instant from the upcoming Rise of the Eldrazi? It's like gifts:

Realms Uncharted 2G
Instant
Search your library for four land cards with different names and reveal them. An opponent chooses two of those cards. Put the chosen cards in your graveyard and the rest into your hand. Then shuffle your library.

Seems pretty decent with a toolbox of lands that we already have and is huge CA with an active loam and/or crucible. The only downside is you can't get enchantments and stuff with it like you can with intuition where you just grab 3 manabonds or exploration or whatever.

You lack redundancy big time with lands, and an intuition for Loam, Ruins, EE (for example) lets you get what you want. If you had a lethal goyf, what would you get? Kor Haven, Glacial Chasm, Maze of Ith, _________?

I've been out of magic for nearly a year now, and thus im pretty far behind on this thread- so im sorry if someone else already made this suggestion and it got shot down.
Treasure Hunt finds the bombs that you dont want dredged into your gy, can potentially draw you a ton of lands, and may arguably be better than mulch.
I'll try to play some games with it to give a better argument to play it... or confirm it isnt good.

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/wwk/42.jpg

Treasure Hunt requires warping the list a lot to make it good... The biggest problem in 43 lands is how tight the lists are; even trying to fit one clutch card (Ghost Quarter, Riftstone Portal, etc.) into the deck is incredibly difficult. Also, mulch hasn't seen play in quite a while.

otherside

04-04-2010, 09:02 PM

Realms Uncharted seems good if you have a crucible in play otherwise Intuition is still much better IMO

Mastikor

04-05-2010, 08:22 AM

Has anyone considered running Meddling Mages in SB (for blue builds of course)? Most opponents will side out removal after game 1, so MM can become very powerful. It would probably require a slightly different manabase though. What do you think?

Mictlantecuhtli

04-06-2010, 09:37 AM

Which match up do you want to address with Meddling Mage? Current sideboard configurations for blue builds address most situations (see recent SCG articles by Chris Woltereck (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/19041_Feature_Article_Welcome_to_Legacy.html)and Doug Linn (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/19123_Legacys_Allure_Deck_Tech_Blue_Lands_Part_1.html)).

No doubt Meddling Mage is a good card but the manabase can't hit UW mana in the early game reliably. Blue builds run Tolaria West as a tutor and hitting UU can be a problem occasionally, so i wouldn't want to worry about white mana too. Chalice of the Void works just fine in most situations, and you can tutor for it and ever recurr it if it gets destroyed or you dredge into it.

Pastorofmuppets

04-15-2010, 11:25 PM

Here's an idea: Nether Spirit as a 1-of. Just bear with me here. Between Manabond, Gamble, and Dredge, it's bound to hit the yard most games, and it works kind of like Maze of Ith #4 until they Swords it, which is one more removal spell not hitting your manlands.

RexFTW

04-15-2010, 11:30 PM

gobblor

04-16-2010, 12:17 PM

What do you guys think about cutting some of the intuitions in the blue build? Often Ill get akward hands with intuition and mana bond. If I use manabond the intuituin gets dumped anyways and if i wait 3 turns to cast the intuition it could just get countered and I wasted all that time. Also, are 4 mox diamonds necessary? I feel like id rather cut 1 for another utility land or something.

Moduloc

04-16-2010, 01:26 PM

I think the diamonds help out when you need speed or if bloodmoon gets played. If you want a first turn loam tutor go with gamble. You could drop that first and then play your manabond.

That nice guy

04-17-2010, 03:31 AM

That nice guy

04-17-2010, 03:35 AM

Why add a win condition. This just loses you the match. You are all doing it wrong.

The point of the deck is to take 45 minutes to win the first game. Then go to time during the second game, winning the match in just 1 game. This way you do not have to try against graveyard hate which totally crushes this deck. A single extirpate is GAME OVER MAN.

You're doing it wrong.

I've had games where I can't win after 45 minutes, they're rare but they happen. (maybe I' m doin it wrong :/ )

Also GOOD players will know when to scoop game one, usually after seeing loam+manabond, and have a much better time G2-3. Also I've lost a lot of tournaments by going X-1-2 or even x-0-3. :(

That's why I bought the bloodghast.

Julian23

04-17-2010, 07:42 AM

Do you run Mindslaver?

mchainmail

04-21-2010, 11:26 PM

dr.knockers

04-22-2010, 09:18 AM

How has everyone else's results been against aggro loam? I keep getting wrecked, because they have diamonds to play around mana disruption, wasteland to play around mazes, and really big creatures. Also, they have chalice at 1 on the play, and Chalice at 2 later-game to hurt us badly.

Don't you run explosives? It deals with the chalice and moxen, and is tutorable with tolaria west. So chalice shouldn't give you problems there. I run 1 gy removal main to deal with stuff like recurring wastes on maze's etc. But it is a though match up.

mchainmail

05-07-2010, 01:10 AM

What are everyone's thoughts on the evolution of anti-grave hate? With the rise in Reanimator and a shift in the metagame's grave hate, is playing Pithing Needle as an answer to Macabre viable?

Maybe something like this:
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Smokestack
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Karakas
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle

It seems like this gives reasonable intuition piles for everything except Bojuka Bog and Rav Trap (and there isn't an out against that)

Crypt / Relic: Grudge, Grip, EE
Macabre: 3 Pithing Needle
Leyline: Grip, Grip, Ray

Moduloc

05-07-2010, 06:17 AM

Seems like I heard that Chris Woltereck ran depths/hexmage/volrath's stronghold in his lands build in the last SSG's in Atlanta. Does anyone know his deck list and how he did?

mchainmail

05-07-2010, 12:07 PM

Seems like I heard that Chris Woltereck ran depths/hexmage/volrath's stronghold in his lands build in the last SSG's in Atlanta. Does anyone know his deck list and how he did?

Somewhere around 6-2-1 if I remember the coverage right. Not top 16, but a solid performance (probably heavily based on playskill)

Serbitar

05-09-2010, 09:44 AM

Seems like I heard that Chris Woltereck ran depths/hexmage/volrath's stronghold in his lands build in the last SSG's in Atlanta. Does anyone know his deck list and how he did?

My guess would be they changed the old list as such:
-1 Taiga, -1 Barbarian Ring, -1 Cephalid Coliseum -(? - I thought he took out Mindslaver, but I saw it on the coverage...)
+ Stronghold, hexmage, depths, urborg

While the Hexmage-Kill seems really clumsy, its advantage over Barbarian Ring/Slaver probably is concerning round time. Barbarian Ringing someone out can take some turns...

Also, did you guys see the covered match against Merfolk? Where did the Ensnaring Bridge at the end of G2 go? Merfolk bounced it and played Back to Basics. Lands had 3 mana left, but didn't replay Bridge for some reason...

otherside

05-09-2010, 01:31 PM

Seems like I heard that Chris Woltereck ran depths/hexmage/volrath's stronghold in his lands build in the last SSG's in Atlanta. Does anyone know his deck list and how he did?

I checked on deckcheck but the list doesnt have DD

Fuzzy

05-09-2010, 05:16 PM

I checked on deckcheck but the list doesnt have DD

Next time check the video coverage.

Serbitar

05-10-2010, 03:27 PM

The list on deckcheck is accurate, but its the winning list from Indy, not the recent one from Atlanta...

That said, what are the thoughts on Hexmage-Dark Depths?

mchainmail

05-10-2010, 08:34 PM

The list on deckcheck is accurate, but its the winning list from Indy, not the recent one from Atlanta...

That said, what are the thoughts on Hexmage-Dark Depths?

Besides forcing them to keep Swords in to keep them honest, I don't see the point. Mindslaver is a one-card combo that wins the game, while Hex-Depths takes 3*.

(I'm talking about slots in the deck, not cards in play. Hex-Depths runs Volrath's Stronghold, Hexmage and DD. Mindslaver piggy-backs off of Academy Ruins, which is already really good in the deck.

mchainmail

05-10-2010, 08:34 PM

Julian23

05-11-2010, 05:29 AM

I used to run Mindslaver but recently dropped it in favor of Smokestack. I started out with it in the board but it's just such a strong card in this deck it's not even funny. Give it a try yourself.

mchainmail

05-11-2010, 01:52 PM

I used to run Mindslaver but recently dropped it in favor of Smokestack. I started out with it in the board but it's just such a strong card in this deck it's not even funny. Give it a try yourself.

I've been running Smokestack in the board, but it just seems like an incredibly difficult card to get value out of a lot of times. Can you try and explain strategy / situations where you want it? (Also, what your ramping strategy typically is)

mchainmail

05-18-2010, 03:46 PM

Stephen Menendian wrote an article this week on lands (premium) http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/19345_So_Many_Insane_Plays_Im_a_Landlubber_The_Land_Deck_in_Legacy.html

The maindeck he gives is basically:
-1 Barbarian Ring
-1 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Ensnaring Bridge
+1 Bojuka Bog

Moduloc

05-19-2010, 08:18 AM

What else did he say?

mchainmail

05-19-2010, 01:43 PM

I don't really want to spoil the article, but the discussion thread here is worth a read http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17598-[Premium-Article]-Im-a-Landlubber-The-Land-Deck-in-Legacy

He discusses (with polls) what plays to make in certain situations. Also, the board has some changes in it.

TOGITwill

05-19-2010, 03:26 PM

Mike, Smokestack is just such a house in the CounterTop/Bant match-up. Smokestack alone won me two matches against CT at Eli's. As long as you're up on material, you just need to make sure they get to the point where they sacrifice their Counterbalance (allowing you to Loam freely). After that it's smooth sailing. Symmetrical effects work wonders when you control more permanents than the opponent... which you should, because you're playing lands :P

BTW, your nearly pimped-out lands deck just made me want to just finish mine even more. Ihatechu.

Tammit67

05-19-2010, 06:56 PM

BTW, your nearly pimped-out lands deck just made me want to just finish mine even more. Ihatechu.

The man still isn't satisfied with it. We are trying to convince him not to, but beta lands are next, as is a Summer 4th basic? Yeah

TOGITwill

05-19-2010, 10:09 PM

That'll only cost him infinite monies.

Pastorofmuppets

05-19-2010, 11:10 PM

Somebody last page was talking about Intuition piles for Trap and Bog. Since they both target you, then you could use Ivory Mask, the cleric that gives you Shroud, or Runed Halo. Halo is also kind of an out vs. Tendrils and Progenitus

mchainmail

05-20-2010, 12:16 AM

That'll only cost him infinite monies.

Pics will be up after GP DC and the deck is finished

malden

05-20-2010, 10:27 AM

What do you guys think of the inclusion of Entomb? It has some obvious advantages and helps tutor for most of the deck. It is really nice to get another Life from the Loam after some one just emptied your Graveyard.

It was discussed on SCG today by Anwar Ahmad, Practical Legacy, New Roles for Powerful Cards (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/19367_Practical_Legacy_New_Roles_For_Powerful_Cards.html)

Update (Just brainstormed this):
Spells(23)
4 Intuition
4 Life from the Loam
4 Exploration
4 Manabonds
4 Mox Diamond
3 Entomb

Lands(37)
4 Maze of Ith
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tolaria West
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Tabernacle of the Pendrel Vale
1 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Academy Ruins
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Gargoyle Castle
1 Ghost Quarter

SB:
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Karakas
1 Zuran Orb
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truths (to board in against GY hate, entomb it in response to them trying to remove your GY)
2 Tormods Crypt
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Extirpate
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Smokestack

What do you guys think of this list?

Mictlantecuhtli

05-21-2010, 08:42 AM

1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truths (to board in against GY hate, entomb it in response to them trying to remove your GY)

I see what you're trying to do, but wouldn't dredging into Kozilek be like GY-hating yourself anyway? :confused:

BreathWeapon

05-21-2010, 11:58 AM

malden

05-21-2010, 12:17 PM

I see what you're trying to do, but wouldn't dredging into Kozilek be like GY-hating yourself anyway? :confused:

Yes, you are, but this would only be something that you would do if you have Life from the Loam in your hand and the engine is running. The issue is that you are limited on the certain lands in your deck. If things like Mishra's workshops and gargoyle castle get exiled then you cannot recur them with Life from the Loam. This way they are shuffled into your deck and you will be able to access them again. Also, you get all of your intuitions and every other spell you have cast previously that are not in play at that time.

Tammit67

05-21-2010, 12:39 PM

Is there any particular reason this deck uses a lot of "chaff" utility lands instead of just 4xing Tabernacle, considering how important Tabernacle is in this deck? It's about the only land I tutor for, besides Glacial Chasm and Barbarian Ring to end the game.

Besides the fact that tabernacle is $200 and legendary? Sometimes you go the beatdown with factory, sometimes you need wasteland, ruins is nice too, maze slows their clock, cephalid coloseum makes you see 9 cards.

I'm not sure I understand your point. The Blue version runs silver bullets as tutor targets while the traditional list needs say riftstone portal to get mana from say tabernacle to further board position without sacrificing control. What lands do you consider chaff?

malden

05-21-2010, 01:17 PM

Besides the fact that tabernacle is $200 and legendary?

More like 330 for a NM english one :eek:

ramanujan

05-21-2010, 01:43 PM

4 tabernacle seems excessive. Considering that they are legendary and do not produce mana I would say the absolute most I would consider is 3 of them. I could easily see the right number as two given all the graveyard hate, but more seems a bit silly. My opinion has nothing to do with the cost of acquiring them, just the playability of them.

Moduloc

05-21-2010, 02:17 PM

I run one tabernacle in the main and one in the side. I have been happy with that for a while.

Tammit67

05-21-2010, 02:29 PM

More like 330 for a NM english one :eek:

Like they exist :rolleyes: Tabernacle might as well have been printed in Italian

malden

05-21-2010, 04:01 PM

Like they exist :rolleyes: Tabernacle might as well have been printed in Italian

Actually, they do exist. I just got one from a friend that won 12 english legends packs as a prize at a legacy tournament. Of course he did the usual, push up the back card, see if its an expensive rare, bust it if it is, and ebay all the others. Only one pack had a rare worth more than selling the pack sealed. I have seen quite a few Tabernacles, and this one is amazing in quality. Being friends he gave me a good deal on it at 290. I will have to post scans sometime.

BreathWeapon

05-22-2010, 10:32 AM

Besides the fact that tabernacle is $200 and legendary? Sometimes you go the beatdown with factory, sometimes you need wasteland, ruins is nice too, maze slows their clock, cephalid coloseum makes you see 9 cards.

I'm not sure I understand your point. The Blue version runs silver bullets as tutor targets while the traditional list needs say riftstone portal to get mana from say tabernacle to further board position without sacrificing control. What lands do you consider chaff?

Because FWIW, Tabernacle and the speed at which you find Tabernacle has the single, biggest effect on your aggro match ups, I think you want as many as you can afford/fit into the deck because no other land has such a profound effect on the board position with out Loam backing it up.

RexFTW

05-22-2010, 10:53 AM

Because FWIW, Tabernacle and the speed at which you find Tabernacle has the single, biggest effect on your aggro match ups, I think you want as many as you can afford/fit into the deck because no other land has such a profound effect on the board position with out Loam backing it up.

dur its a legend. when you manabond out 2 how good is that for your agro matchup? this is why. if you draw 2 you cant use manabond, which is actually the best card in the deck not tab.

Moduloc

05-22-2010, 11:01 AM

dur its a legend. when you manabond out 2 how good is that for your agro matchup? this is why. if you draw 2 you cant use manabond, which is actually the best card in the deck not tab.

there are so many times that the second one can be pitched if manabond is in play. mox diamond, glacial chasm, gamble. as a two of the chances are low and if you absolutly have to sack both to mana bond you can always grab it back sooner rather than later. I think its woth the risk in certain matchups; thats why you keep your second in the side.

RexFTW

05-22-2010, 11:16 AM

he wants to play 4....

Is there any particular reason this deck uses a lot of "chaff" utility lands instead of just 4xing Tabernacle

Tammit67

05-22-2010, 05:16 PM

Running four is silly. you can stall long enough with manlands and maze. While great, running 4 tabernacle is 2 more than any list could profit from.
You tend beat most aggro, you tend beat most control. Its not because you run 4 tabernacle effects.

BreathWeapon

05-22-2010, 10:55 PM

dur its a legend. when you manabond out 2 how good is that for your agro matchup? this is why. if you draw 2 you cant use manabond, which is actually the best card in the deck not tab.

No shit Sherlock, the synergy with Manabond is a minor consideration, there's clearly a number between 1 and 4 Tabernacles that maximizes its effectiveness as an early game tempo generator and minimizes its late game dead card advantage. Tabernacle is probably the single most unfair card in this deck, I think you're crazy if you don't want to play more than 1 between the MD and SB at least.

Tammit67

05-23-2010, 02:44 AM

Tabernacle is probably the single most unfair card in this deck

Life from the Loam, Manabond, Glacial Chasm, Tolaria West would like to have a word with you outside

proraptor

05-23-2010, 03:55 AM

I currently have my list like this:
1 EE
4 mox diamond
1 tormod"s crypt
1 mindslaver
4 exploration
4 manabond
4 intuition
4 life from the loam
1 forest
1 taiga
1 bayou
3 tropical island
1 misty rainforest
1 windswept heath
1 wooded foothills
1 verdant catacomb
1 cephalid coliseum
1 barbarian ring
1 glacial chasm
4 maze of ith
4 mishra's factory
4 rishadan port
4 wasteland
3 tolaria west
3 tranquil thicket
1 academy ruins
1 the tabernacle at pendrell vale

If I wanted to play one more tabernacle in the main deck what do you guys prefer to remove in this list to swap it in?

BreathWeapon

05-23-2010, 04:54 AM

Life from the Loam, Manabond, Glacial Chasm, Tolaria West would like to have a word with you outside

Well the entire deck is fundamentally unfair, I was focusing on the effect of 1 land tho' with no support from the rest of the deck tho', Tabernacle is just ridiculous at what it does with no set up.

How do you like Tolaria West? I found that card to be incredibly bad in testing.

Julian23

05-23-2010, 05:53 AM

@proraptor: I'd cut the Mindslaver, Barbarian Ring and Taiga in the first place and replace the Crypt with Bog while having 3 Crypt in the board.

Tammit67

05-23-2010, 12:19 PM

How do you like Tolaria West? I found that card to be incredibly bad in testing.

Sure its not ideal with manabond, but the ability to find EE, tabernacle, wasteland, academy ruins (slaver kill), chasm is really disgusting. Getting 1uu is not always easy.
In what way have you found it bad?

mchainmail

05-24-2010, 12:26 AM

@proraptor: I'd cut the Mindslaver, Barbarian Ring and Taiga in the first place and replace the Crypt with Bog while having 3 Crypt in the board.

Why do you feel graveyard matchups have become an issue?

Also, cutting Mindslaver has the potential to significantly increase the time it takes for you to win matches, which unfortunately is a consideration.

I'm also hesitant of cutting Barbarian Ring. How else can you deal with a resolved Dark Confidant, Meddling Mage or Yixlid Jailer? Sure, you have EE but you have a lot of other uses for EE, and can't always set up recursion.

Well the entire deck is fundamentally unfair, I was focusing on the effect of 1 land tho' with no support from the rest of the deck tho', Tabernacle is just ridiculous at what it does with no set up.

How do you like Tolaria West? I found that card to be incredibly bad in testing.

So... you can go your own way with Tabernacle. And lose. Tabernacle is mediocre at best without other cards around it. When you have wastelands, maze of ith, Mishra's Factory and utility lands around it, Tabernacle is better.

The real reason Tolaria West is so good is in situations where you don't have an Exploration or Manabond out, and need to develop the board more. For 2UUG (which, admittedly isn't always easy to get) you get to put any land from your deck into play, based on the situation. Against Zoo, you get 4x Tabernacle, against reanimator, you get 4x mishra's factory, glacial chasm or maze of ith, which changes based on the situation.

Have you read Stephen Menendian's article on the lands deck? The entire point of the article is "You can win without Exploration or Manabond"

BreathWeapon

05-24-2010, 05:44 AM

Why do you feel graveyard matchups have become an issue?

Also, cutting Mindslaver has the potential to significantly increase the time it takes for you to win matches, which unfortunately is a consideration.

I'm also hesitant of cutting Barbarian Ring. How else can you deal with a resolved Dark Confidant, Meddling Mage or Yixlid Jailer? Sure, you have EE but you have a lot of other uses for EE, and can't always set up recursion.

So... you can go your own way with Tabernacle. And lose. Tabernacle is mediocre at best without other cards around it. When you have wastelands, maze of ith, Mishra's Factory and utility lands around it, Tabernacle is better.

The real reason Tolaria West is so good is in situations where you don't have an Exploration or Manabond out, and need to develop the board more. For 2UUG (which, admittedly isn't always easy to get) you get to put any land from your deck into play, based on the situation. Against Zoo, you get 4x Tabernacle, against reanimator, you get 4x mishra's factory, glacial chasm or maze of ith, which changes based on the situation.

Have you read Stephen Menendian's article on the lands deck? The entire point of the article is "You can win without Exploration or Manabond"

Of course Tabernacle is mediocre without other cards around it, but the other cards around it are un-counterable lands and not counterable spells, that's the difference. Tabernacle essentially makes each and every land in your deck better at what it does, and there's nothing your opponent can do about it (it's a lot like Loam in that sense) My point is, I spend so much time/resources tutoring for Tabernacle that I may as well just play more Tabernacles since they have such a drastic effect on the early game.

Tammit67

05-24-2010, 02:36 PM

Sure, but you sacrifice your end game, not having the tutors in place of the tabernacles. Sure you spend time tutoring for it should it help you, but then you don't have to see it for the rest of the game, and thus can get something that helps you more than a legendary land stuck in your hand. Is that seriously not worth it to you?

P.S.

05-25-2010, 12:18 PM

I don't understand why Lands is not in the Decks to Beat section still, when it's obviously Tier 1, has big showings and might even be the best deck in the entire field. I've read the "rules" of how decks get moved to different sections and I'm still quite confused.

GoboLord

05-25-2010, 05:06 PM

Its not Tier1. Its not frequently played because it runs many old and rare cards and its expensive. Nobody prepares his SB for Lands. It has problems with the omnipresent graveyard hate. It sucks against combo. It sucks against fast aggro decks.
Thats why.

Tammit67

05-25-2010, 07:59 PM

I agree on all of your other points, but what fast aggro deck does this have problems with? Mono red goblins is the only thing that might come to mind, if moon is in their SB

Antonius

05-25-2010, 08:59 PM

I agree on all of your other points, but what fast aggro deck does this have problems with? Mono red goblins is the only thing that might come to mind, if moon is in their SB

you can easily lose to goblins if you don't get a chasm lock early.

Antonius

05-25-2010, 08:59 PM

Ozymandias

05-25-2010, 10:41 PM

Also, Dredge is a pain for the same reasons. Without a Tabernacle, they can run you over with Zombies, and without Mazes they can get there off ichorids. Even with both, sometimes they can sculpt double DR and just win before you find your singleton crypt.

Antonius

05-26-2010, 12:41 AM

dahcmai

05-30-2010, 01:05 AM

I've never actually had to use a Chasm to fend off Goblins. I typically, just use mazes and Tabernacle and that's plenty. I always thought Goblins was pretty much an auto win. I haven't seen much other than Leylines out of the board that even seem halfway annoying. Half the time, you can just keep any hand that can get Tabernacle and some Mazes and topdeck into the win from there. Maybe I've just had dozens and dozens of lucky matches, but I never worried about it at all. I've even been Extirpated from a couple and still didn't really worry.

Dredge is the only aggro deck I am scared of. It has such a potential to come out of nowhere and some of these are running Terastadon and that's fairly annoying. I can deal with the normal dredge decks that don't run him, but almost all of them are now. It's a race to keep them off mana and cycle crypt them enough so they get too far behind.

What I want to know is has anyone found a good way to avoid getting locked out by this stupid Realm Razor that comes from Reanimator's board? It's horrendously annoying and effective. You end up having to hold a Maze just to drop it on him and build back up and pray they didn't get your B ring. I keep hunting a good answer, but haven't found much other than literally starting over with a sandbagged maze.

Edit: Found a good answer for Realm Razor - Slaughter Pact is now in my board along side the Flame Jab. Either way, that thing is not staying on the table.

Anyway, I came back to this thread to mention something I was trying out. Standstill. It sounds terrible and I might not keep it, but it sure sounds good. Landstill worked on the fact they didn't need to cast anything and neither does lands for the most part. Especially since most of your casting is done by the second turn. I'll gladly go into topdeck mode against most decks.

mchainmail

06-11-2010, 10:03 PM

you can easily lose to goblins if you don't get a chasm lock early.

At the 5k in phili, lands went 4-1-2 against goblins. I was unfortunately the loss, and he had t3 blood moon game 1, and t4 blood moon game 2. I don't think it's that bad of a matchup, outside of the moon from the board.

What I want to know is has anyone found a good way to avoid getting locked out by this stupid Realm Razor that comes from Reanimator's board? It's horrendously annoying and effective. You end up having to hold a Maze just to drop it on him and build back up and pray they didn't get your B ring. I keep hunting a good answer, but haven't found much other than literally starting over with a sandbagged maze.

Edit: Found a good answer for Realm Razor - Slaughter Pact is now in my board along side the Flame Jab. Either way, that thing is not staying on the table.

Anyway, I came back to this thread to mention something I was trying out. Standstill. It sounds terrible and I might not keep it, but it sure sounds good. Landstill worked on the fact they didn't need to cast anything and neither does lands for the most part. Especially since most of your casting is done by the second turn. I'll gladly go into topdeck mode against most decks.

Realm Razor isn't what I am worried about; Pathrazer of Ulamog represents a huge threat early; it is very difficult to loam through it, even with manabond in play because an early Force will shut you out of the game. I don't know what the best way to win is.

Razor also makes it fairly easy for you to waste-lock your opponents, as they will most likely only have 3 basics total, and use 1 or 2 of them to get up to Razor mana.

What is your current spell count? I've had mine at 24 for a while, and it feels a little too high. I might experiment with a 61st card (MD Zuran Orb or something) I'm running 4 exploration, manabond, loam, diamond, intuition and 1 ensnaring bridge, crypt, ee, mindslaver.

Did anyone else play at the 5k? I ended up going 5-3-1, but losses 2 and 3 were to blood moon and magus of the moon, respectively. The draw was to reanimator in rd. 8 when I had Chalice at 1, Crucible, Ensnaring Bridge and Ghost Quarter in play at the end of turns.

Pastorofmuppets

06-11-2010, 10:56 PM

Third time suggesting Nether Spirit. I'm telling you guys, it rocks face with blocking.

dahcmai

06-12-2010, 04:10 AM

Not a bad thought. I am working on a G/U/B version that uses Volrath's stronghold, Living Wish, and Standstill (yes, Standstill). Not sure if it's any good or not, but so far it looks decent. I might have to try that.

Meloku is the shit btw. Talk about a combo kill from hell.

mchainmail

06-13-2010, 12:06 PM

Third time suggesting Nether Spirit. I'm telling you guys, it rocks face with blocking.

So basically a situational, free, 5th Maze of Ith that you need to have Manabond out to make relevant? What matchups would you want the spirit?

Not a bad thought. I am working on a G/U/B version that uses Volrath's stronghold, Living Wish, and Standstill (yes, Standstill). Not sure if it's any good or not, but so far it looks decent. I might have to try that.

Meloku is the shit btw. Talk about a combo kill from hell.

43 Lands is the singular best deck under standstill in the game. However, I don't know if we get enough of a benefit playing it. How many lands / nonlands are you down to in your list?

Can you talk about Meloku more? It seems strong, but there hasn't been much discussion.

Tammit67

06-13-2010, 08:44 PM

43 Lands is the singular best deck under standstill in the game.

Only if you hit tabernacle quickly. Otherwise, I like dredge/landstill's chances, particularly dredge.

Pastorofmuppets

06-13-2010, 10:53 PM

Only if you hit tabernacle quickly. Otherwise, I like dredge/landstill's chances, particularly dredge.

Well, Dredge can't DR or anything, leaving you with Ichorids and Narcomoebas. Capable of winning until Landstill dude goes factory crazy or DoJ's.

Back on topic, weren't there a couple of cards that worked like Meloku? I think there are more possibilities you guys aren't considering, especially since Meloku's tokens don't work well with Tabernacle, which is a saving grace in many MU's.
Upon researching, there are none that are very good, here's everything that has you return lands to your hand as a cost.
http://magiccards.info/query?q=o%3AReturn+o%3Aa+o%3Aland+o%3Ayou+o%3Acontrol+o%3Ato+o%3Aits+o%3Aowner%27s+o%3Ahand%3A&v=card&s=cname
Haha, Ovinomancer and silly tricks with Mazes

dahcmai

06-14-2010, 01:59 AM

Well, if you play Meloku, you need Volrath's Stronghold and you start going into black fairly heavy or least enough to be able to reliably power it up. I tried it without the stronghold first and found myself dumping it into the yard too often to actually think it was useful.

With the stronghold, it becomes a nasty killer that people just freeze when they see it. Mostly because of the lack of creature kill people have after boarding. I only boarded it in. It's not a main deck thing. Manabond and Meloku is game, hands down. It's so over they see it almost before you start making tokens. It's so mean. It has the feel of Empty the Warrens if it gives you an idea. You cast it and they deal with it that turn or lose.

Now keep in mind it's slow to gain a concession like Slaver mostly gets. I'm not real sure I even like it over Slaver as Slaver is more reliable by far. Slaver tends to get concessions. Meloku forces an end game that the opponent can sometimes have an answer for. Take your pick really. If you find people are going to take you to time over and over take Meloku though.

As for Tabernacle, Waste it if you need to. It's not exactly a big deal if you just made 10-20 tokens.

On the same note, black does open up a few things I do like. I played Extirpate in the board (since I could) and found it's quite handy in the Tendrils match up. It messes up Mystical quite a bit and you can get lucky and screw with their hand while they try to combo out on you too. I was starting to win matches over and over due to this. I might be on to something. I even played against a deck with Extirpates main while I played tendrils to see how it interacts and it's a serious pain to get around. This is worth thinking about.

Black also gives you danger of cool things in Dark Depths. I guess if you expect a ton of Zoo it's nice. Vampire Hexmage might start seeing some play with Jace around anyway. It's a thought, but probably crap. Dark Confidant like we saw in some decks is also wort thinking about. I like this idea as you're not going to get hit for much of anything half the time and that's some serious draw power after board.

Standstill is another board trick. I was trying it out by using it to cut back on Loams and up my Crucible count to make myself practically invulnerable to grave hate. You have to play a higher manland count than usual (I used the B/U one from Zen), but it works pretty well so far. Not sure if I like the arrangement, but it shows a lot of promise. It's like Landstill except you just play Tabernacle and Mazes instead of counters. Weird but effective.

I'll let you guys know what I end up with. It's looking like an odd conglomeration though.

Serbitar

06-14-2010, 12:55 PM

I was wondering whether there is an artifact creature option (meaning you can get away without Stronghold and black), ending the game quickly after boarding like Meloku would. Unfortunately I cannot think of anything close. There is the yanky Copper-Leaf Angel and maybe the old It's the fear tech of Etched Oracle... or am I missing something cool? Maybe even Phyrexian Processor or Memnarch?

dahcmai

06-14-2010, 07:10 PM

Yeah, I couldn't think of anything either. I would much rather just run Academy only, but the choices are limited. Mindslaver does tend to end games quick though if the player isn't an idiot.

Smokestack is also not bad since you can just destroy everything they have and start using Mishra's. I've had to do it a few times.

tb249606

06-20-2010, 06:54 AM

aether spellbomb as an answer to reanimator. i been testing one for a while and its a house.

mchainmail

06-20-2010, 08:16 AM

aether spellbomb as an answer to reanimator. i been testing one for a while and its a house.

Can you post your decklist? Is reanimator frequent enough for you to add spellbomb?

blueneverfails

06-20-2010, 12:27 PM

well with the banning of m. tutor, we can start to focus more on red aggro and more blue, has anyone got suggestions for changes to this, my first one would be to auto include nomad stadium for against burn since that seems to be the most played deck, also it is still worth it to mainboard crypt with reanimator taking a shit and will be dead by gpt time.

Also can anyone here give a good testament to living wish, I will be just starting to test it and I'm a little bit iff on it. It feels really slow to me but I guess with us playing mox diamond, we could practically put and creature in there we want such as muloku.

Serbitar

06-20-2010, 01:32 PM

Why would you play Nomad Stadium over Zuran Orb? Maybe one Orb MD, one more after board. Also, how is Burn the "most played deck"?

I guess when Reanimator really declines there is no more need for the MD Crypt, Ensnaring Bridge and Karakas (which some lists have). You probably still want all of these in the board though.

I can give no advise as to Living Wish. I haven't tested it, but to me it looks awful, unless you manage not to loose too many lands MD. But the 22 slots (Loam, Exploration, Manabond, Intuition, Mox, 1 EE, 1 Mindslaver/Smokestack) look set in stone, and I would not want to go below 36 or so lands.

blueneverfails

06-20-2010, 02:10 PM

When I said burn, I did not mean the deck burn, I meant burn spells in general, it was refering to zoo actually since that will be the most played deck. and duh, I feel like an idiot now for not think zuran orb, when I play them. As for living wish, it seems to help the situational matchups, and to make us more consistant against random jank, which is actually needed in big tournies, you never know what you run into.

Antonius

06-20-2010, 02:22 PM

I haven't played in couple weeks, but the Living Wish actually looks pretty on paper, IMO. Meloku tops the list of most-gangster win conditions in this deck; His ability to turn Tabernacle into a completely one-sided effect while beating down AND stalling with chump blockers is nuts... Also, I don't think anyone caught this, but Meloku IS synergistic with Tabernacle. the cost of his ability is return a land--any land. So, you bounce the Tabernacle at the end of their turn, replay it on yours. Never even trip about that upkeep cost.

Other wish targets--Confidant, another tabernacle or chasm in board, Witness, creatures that blow up artifact/enchantments, fleshbag--seem really good to have. The only advantage it doesn't have over burning wish is that it can't get Loam. I would love to test the tech, but unfortunately I sold my living wishes a while back...

anyways, this is my current build:

4 Exploration
3 Manabond
4 Loam
4 Intuition

1 EE
1 Slaver
1 Zuran

4 Mox Diamond

1 Forest
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Bayou
4 Windswept Heath

2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tolaria West

4 Port
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Maze

1 Vesuva
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Cabal Pit

1 Tabernacle
1 Chasm
1 Academy Ruins
1 Urborg

--Sideboard
4 Dark Confidant
3 Krosan Grip
2 Ray of Revelation
3 Tormod's Cypt
3 Chalice of the Void

--

Wow, now that I think more about Meloku/Volraths in this deck, I really like it. Meloku is just a gangster. He doesn't need 13 mana to lock the game; he all he needs is an active manabond. Then the only thing that can negate him is a Sharpshooter. But every other deck is going to get cheesed to death with 1/1 flyers. Green firespout doesn't even solve the problem... The flaw with that build though is that I don't think Lands can fit both Volrath's and Academy ruins. Too clunky. So you'll have to choose between powerhouse creatures or powerhouse artifacts. But meloku's ability to cheese the opposing creatures is roughly equivalent to EE's ability to remove them. I don't think there is a creature equivalent to Zuran Orb, though.

johanessen

06-20-2010, 04:39 PM

What about using Entomb as a tutor instead of Intuition?

Antonius

06-21-2010, 12:05 PM

This is my meloku build:

4 Exploration
3 Manabond
4 Loam
4 Intuition

1 Meloku
1 Grazing Gladeheart

4 Mox Diamond

1 Forest
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Bayou
4 Windswept Heath

2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tolaria West

4 Port
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Maze

1 Vesuva
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Cabal Pit

1 Tabernacle
1 Chasm
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Urborg
1 High Market

--Sideboard
4 Dark Confidant
3 Krosan Grip
1 Ray of Revelation
1 EE
1 Academy Ruins
3 Tormod's Cypt
2 Chalice of the Void

I move EE/Academy ruins to the board, along with all the other necessary recursive artifacts. Grazing Gladeheart is there as a stand-in for Zuran Orb, though I think there might be better creature-based lifegain options. High Market was added to function as Meloku's protection from Swords.

Serbitar

06-21-2010, 01:02 PM

If you're black already for Confidant/Cabal Pit, what is the big problem with playing Volrath's Stronghold over, say, the Vesuva in your list? Then you can either cut Slaver for Meloku or play Meloku after boarding.

Entomb is interesting (cf. this (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31062) which was pre Tolaria West), but I think it cannot fill all the functions Intuition fills. Most notably, it can't find your enchantments. It also finds either Loam or good lands/artifacts (though it probably is worth testing, whether dredging Loam earlier makes up for that). Also Entomb requires much heavier commitment to black, and you probably don't want to loose Tolaria West for it. Colors already can be an issue.

Antonius

06-21-2010, 01:15 PM

Vesuva allows you to double Chasm Lock, which pretty much GG's anyone that's trying to win with a Timing push off of wasteland.

videogamer99

06-27-2010, 12:28 AM

I like this deck a lot. I like the 1-of Vesuva. I want to play this deck instead of Zoo, but I cant afford it. I want to switch to this deck in time for GP, but Ill play Zoo if I cant finish this. My only question is if the blue splash is the only viable way to play this deck or if the RGw build is still good? Either way, this is the build I would play if I had somehow acquired the cards for this deck:

Spells
4 Exploration
4 Intuition
4 Life from the Loam
4 Manabond

Artifacts
4 Mox Diamond
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Zuran Orb

Lands
4 Maze of Ith
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Tolaria West
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tropical Island
1 Academy Ruins
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Misty Rainforest
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Meloku the Clouded Mirror
1 Karakas
1 Smokestack
1 Zuran Orb

proraptor

06-28-2010, 08:24 AM

what do you guys think of maybe using treasure hunt in 43 land? It's seems good because you can get over the problem of milling your enchantment's and spells with loam and it's cost less to play then intuition and transmuting. Not saying that you should replace them for a treasure hunt but maybe cut some card here and there?
By the way do you guys often have the problem that rishadan port issen't effective because of the tabernacle softlock. I can only use my port turn 1 up to 3 and 50 percent of those times I don't have it on the board!

Julian23

06-28-2010, 08:52 AM

I don't get what you mean. Port+Tabernacle is a great combo. Don't make the mistake to port their lands immedeatly during their upkeep because they will just respond by tapping them for mana and paying for Tabernacle. Wait till _after_ they paid for Tabernnacle to port. Besides that I have to disagree heavily with Port being only effective during the first three turns!

proraptor

06-28-2010, 09:01 AM

the things was I had a tournament yesterday and the most players had 3 creature's for instance and 3 mana and a fetch, and they paid for the creature's and then fetched in main fase so you didn't have something to port. After the point when they didn't lay any mana down you were already loaming and using your wasteland to disrupt there mana pool. So in most of my games I only could use port up to 1 or 2 times effectively and in mid game I shut them down completely so there was no reason to port anymore

Julian23

06-28-2010, 09:15 AM

I'd call that mission accomplished. So they fetch for a turn which allows them to have 1 mana for 1 turn, no big deal. The turn afterwards you port their fourth land while still being able to Loam or cast Intuition unless you missed several landdrops.

Another very important thing about Port is being able to shut down basic lands and cut them from a color. Other applications are tapping their mana during your turn to prevent any expected shenanigangs like Extirpate before Loaming (and getting it back with Thicket before passing the turn).

That nice guy

06-30-2010, 06:05 PM

That nice guy

06-30-2010, 06:10 PM

mchainmail

06-30-2010, 09:33 PM

I picked this deck because I wanted to autowin against decks like zoo. While playing this at the last tournament this weekend their were two zoo decks that maindecked price of progress and raped me.

Suggestions to get around this?

P.S. please don't respond by saying get zuran orb. Because they either respond to the casting of it or I waste to much trying to get it and they kill me another way.

1. What version are you running?

Get better with the deck. There's no way to sugar coat it. The deck has a very steep learning curve to win. The faster zoo decks can be difficult, mostly when they lead t1 steppe lynx and you don't have Maze. But with tight play, you will typically be fine.

There is a lot of variance in hands, and you really need to sit and play with a lot of them before you can be successful.

When you are trying to get Zuran Orb, instead get Glacial Chasm. Once chasm is in play, let it sit for a turn or 2 (taking up to 6 life) and then set up Zuran Orb. There is no such thing as an auto win (at the last event, a Lands deck beat Dragon Stompy) but yes, the deck is designed to beat Zoo.

Davetradint

07-01-2010, 06:41 PM

Hi everyone!
I'm new to the deck and was wondering what purposes serve Savannah, Bayou and Taiga. Apart from obviously adding mana...
Are they for any special reason? To play easily sideboard cards? If we play 4 Mox D., which ones are cuttable?

Has anyone tried Rifstone Portal?

Julian23

07-01-2010, 08:20 PM

I'd say the non-Korean ones.

Taiga fuels Barbarian Ring while Bayou mostly generates black mana for sideboard extirpates. Some versions use Volrath's Stronghold as well however those usually utilize Urborg (Tomb of Yawgmoth, haha). I would not recommend cutting Mox Diamond, however some list cut down to 3. I don't like this as Mox Diamond usually acts as a semi-timewalk early on. Regarding Riftstone Portal, I would only run it in mana heavy versions relying on the Mindslaver lock (13 mana, including 1 blue and Academy ruins).

Julian23

07-01-2010, 08:20 PM

/deleted

Serbitar

07-02-2010, 03:50 AM

DownSyndromeKarl

07-02-2010, 09:48 AM

Has anyone tried Rifstone Portal?

This deck has changed a lot since I played it so I don't know if it really still fits, but I loved Riftstone in my deck. I also ran Nantuko Monastary.

kkoie

07-02-2010, 09:59 AM

What the question about the off-color duals really brings up is, which splash-color we want.

Red offers Barbarian Ring and Ancient Grudge.
White offers Ray of Revelation and maybe more Combohate (there was one SB Ethersworn Canonist in a SCG Top8).
Black offers Volrath's Stronghold (enabling Meloku or even Hexmage/Depths), Dark Confidant, Extirpate, Cabal Pit. Even Fleshbag Marauder/Slaughter Pact.

From this it seems like black has the most to offer. Cabal Pit does what Barbarian Ring does mostly (kill Meddling Mage and other weenies). Ray of Revelation might even be supportable just off of Mox Diamonds - against Back to Basics or Blood Moon you probably want to keep a hand with Mox anyway - or just be replaced by another Krosan Grip.

On the subject of color splashes. I tried out Hexmage Depths in the deck when I took it to the Star City St. Louis Open. My record was 5/3 at the end of the day and I won a single game using hexmage combo. However that game took over 30 minutes, and by the time I got the combo off, I probably could searched and successfully implemented Meloku instead. To make room for it, I had cut Mindslaver. In hindsight I think mindslaver is better the hexmage dark depths because Mindslaver is another out against harder matchups. Where as hexmage in the end was no better than throwing down Meloku, or worse, in my opinion.

proraptor

07-04-2010, 04:05 AM

Mark Sun

07-04-2010, 04:14 AM

What do you guys think of maybe getting more creatures in the maindeck or maybe even playing living wish. I am a specially thinking of Karn, the silver golem, because you can retrieve him with academy ruins and with his ability of making the power en toughness the same as the creatures converted mana cost you can remove tarmogoyf and other Zoo creatures more easily with barbarian ring!
And what about playing a mainboard chalice of the void playing manabond or exploration first and the setting up chalice for 1!

You should probably reread Karn before you think he's turning Tarmogoyfs into 2/2's.

This is, however, good enough to be sig'ed for the time being.

mchainmail

07-04-2010, 12:35 PM

What do you guys think of maybe getting more creatures in the maindeck or maybe even playing living wish. I am a specially artifact creatures, because you can retrieve him with academy ruins.
And what about playing a mainboard chalice of the void playing manabond or exploration first and the setting up chalice for 1!

Running Chalice and setting it up at 1 is a big liability; a pridemage can cut you off of manabond / exploration, locking you under your own lock pieces.

Davetradint

07-05-2010, 05:42 AM

mchainmail

07-07-2010, 02:05 AM

How many mana-lands do you usually play?
Is it enough with 5? I mean, 4 duals and the basic forest.

With the banning of M.Tutor, is Karakas and Ensnaring bridge still necessary?
Which is your basic plan against zoo?

I'm at 5 as well. Remember Tranquil Thicket and Tolaria West can tap for mana, and you can ghost quarter one of them to find your forest. Mox Diamond is also a huge help. Rarely do I mull hands solely because I'm mana screwed. (I have been mana screwed in one competitive game against Landstill where I kept a sloppy hand and played lands + diamond in the wrong order.)

A lot of decks are cold to Ensnaring Bridge game 1; Zoo has to try to burn you out, or wait until they draw pridemage. (Or Steppe Lynx) Both of these make it a practical time walk. Merfolk rarely has an answer. New Horizons needs to hit one of 2 EEs, and then some number of wastelands, all the while dealing with tabernacle and our loam engine.

I'm not cutting Karakas (yet) because Emrakul is showing up in decent numbers in both Survival and Moss-Naught decks (maybe 10% of an expected metagame?)

That nice guy

07-08-2010, 03:10 PM

I'm not cutting Karakas (yet) because Emrakul is showing up in decent numbers in both Survival and Moss-Naught decks (maybe 10% of an expected metagame?)

I play a version with crop rotation and I was wondering what the forum thought of my meta slot being Bog, or should it be Karakas?
I do like how Karakas can bounce Teeg and a fiery, while hurting other decks that run Karakas.

I chose bog because in my meta I keep getting beat by reanimator and realm razor. Also I lose to price of progress a lot so responding with crop for glacial is sweet.

Eatatjoes

07-09-2010, 04:25 AM

Im playing the mindslaver version. Which land is better? Riftstone portal? Or Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth?

Here is what im playing

4x intuition
4x manabond
4x exploration
4x life from the loam
4x mox diamond

1x engineered explosives
1x mindslaver
1x tormods crypt
1x zuran orb (should i board this if there isnt much fast aggro? Ichorid is probably the fastest deck in my meta, and this doesnt seem to good against it, i would rather have more crypts)

4x wasteland
4x rishadon port
4x maze of ith
4x mishras factory
3x green fetchland (+ 1 more if i cut something else? Or is 3 good enough?)
3x tropical island
3x tolaria west
3x tranquil thickett
1x tabernacle
1x academy ruins
1x urborg, tomb of yawgmoth (or is riftstone portal better?)
1x taiga
1x barbarian ring
1x forest
1x ghost quarter
1x glacial chasm (should i just board this? No zoo in my meta, or reanimator)

Sideboard

4x chalice of the void (might fix my manabase, and replace these with the new white leyline to test them out)
2x tormods crypt
1x engineered explosives
1x karakas
1x smokestack
3x krosan grip (counterbalance is starting to pick up in my meta)
1x ensnaring bridge
1x ray of revelation
1x zuran orb

If anyone can give me some pointers, or advice, i would greatly appreciate it!

Davetradint

07-09-2010, 08:01 AM

@Murderface: My list looks like yours, except for:
-1 Zuran orb
-1 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Green Fetch (total: 4)
+1 Cephalid Coliseum
-1 Urborg for +1 Riftstone Portal
-1 Taiga for +1 Bayou
-1 Barbarian Ring for +1 Cabal Pit

I'm pretty new with the deck, so my list isn't surely perfectly tuned.
I chose black instead of red because of the sideboard options (Extirpate). Adding R.portal helps the slaver plan, and all our lands become savannahs too. These were my reasons...

I still have to test this a little and many ppl here will be able to provide better advices.

mchainmail

07-12-2010, 02:37 PM

Antonius

07-12-2010, 02:56 PM

Chasm + Vesuva + Zuran Orb is the best for beating aggro.

Moosedog

07-15-2010, 09:01 AM

kkoie

07-16-2010, 07:13 AM

I have the cards to make this deck. I have heard that the learning cureve is rather high though and was wondering if anyone has any suggestions that may speed up the process? Clearly i will be playtesting, but it doesnt hurt to ask.

also, why the 1 forest?

I have seen some lists run bob in the sideboard, this seems effective to me, but what would you put it in for? it seems like this deck would be difficult to sideboard with.

A way to speed up learning the deck is good ol'fashioned practise. Practise makes perfect.

1 forest is for non-basic land hate.

Bobs, I believe, would be sided in against slow decks where you would like the draw to keep up with the war of attrition. I tested it out and they are fun, but in the end I will be cutting them infavor or more artifacts in the sideboard (I think a more aggro-centric meta makes running creatures less desireable, though I have a hard time cutting Meloku, he is just a bomb).

mchainmail

07-16-2010, 08:46 AM

Rune

07-16-2010, 09:03 AM

You could learn by watching someone else play it. http://www.ustream.tv/user/ggslive/videos/newest_first/1 <- somewhere in here there should be videos of videos of Chris Woltereck playing the deck to a top finish.

Tao

07-16-2010, 10:45 AM

A Google-Translated German article by article by the guy who made the deck (and probably the best player with the deck):

http://translate.google.de/translate?hl=de&ie=UTF-8&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.planetmtg.de/articles/artikel.html%3Fid%3D5437&prev=_t&twu=1

Oddus

07-16-2010, 01:10 PM

I was wonering about the puzzle in the end of the article above - is there a way to defeat the opponent right away? I think we're one land short... so - we float U from tolaria, sac it to wasteland, tap rishadan+Bayou and loam Tolaria, waste and forest, drop waste and forest, tap waste and tropical+U - search for EE with tolaria, forest+taiga to set EE at 2, tap 2 rishadans to blow goyfs, and we're left with 2 mishra factories and - I wonder if we use one factory to activate another, then in combat we cannot use maze or the damage would be prevented - what am I missing?

Another point I am interested in - is it feasible to run Bojuka bog and/or ghost quarter main, or are they too specific/clunky. And - how good is cephalid coliseum, cause it kind of seems like a win-more card, cause it usually activates when u got your engine up and running, or is it actually good at finding exploration/manabond? I've been putting this deck together fo a long time now, but just don't get to test much in my area, where Legacy is considered super-expensive elitist format :(

Blitzbold

07-16-2010, 01:36 PM

I was wonering about the puzzle in the end of the article above - is there a way to defeat the opponent right away? I think we're one land short... so - we float U from tolaria, sac it to wasteland, tap rishadan+Bayou and loam Tolaria, waste and forest, drop waste and forest, tap waste and tropical+U - search for EE with tolaria, forest+taiga to set EE at 2, tap 2 rishadans to blow goyfs, and we're left with 2 mishra factories and - I wonder if we use one factory to activate another, then in combat we cannot use maze or the damage would be prevented - what am I missing?

The task is to win this turn. You were on the right track, but made the wrong conclusions. When attacking you have to untap one of the Factories by using your mazes on them. As it's not removed from combat by Maze's ability, you can use several Mazes on one Factory, which you then use to pump the other one repeatedly to lethal stats.

Oddus

07-16-2010, 01:48 PM

The task is to win this turn. You were on the right track, but made the wrong conclusions. When attacking you have to untap one of the Factories by using your mazes on them. As it's not removed from combat by Maze's ability, you can use several Mazes on one Factory, which you then use to pump the other one repeatedly to lethal stats.
yeah I got that idea and I clearly see how it could be done - what I don't see though is the whole sequence. Lol, I actually finally got it while typing)) so - when the EE is set, we use rishadans to activate both factories and go to attack with those, then b4 blockers we double Maze one factory to get 2 mana, blow goyfs and then use 3rd maze activation on the factory to pump another factory - now that is one elegant puzzle!! And I would probably never thought of such a conclusion, probly would just blow goyfs and go for the throat next turn)) brilliant!