[Deck] 43 Lands

[Barbwire]

Ya, right now there are only 4 spots dedicated to hating combo. Trinisphere and 3 Chalice. I just hope combo isn't going to be as popular as it was in DC.

[kjeldoran]

we play land
we play loam
we play splash white
we play enlighteened tutor
why we don t play solitary confinement?

[mchainmail]

we play land
we play loam
we play splash white
we play enlighteened tutor
why we don t play solitary confinement?

For the storm matchup? Terrible. They can just bounce it after they go off. You need proactive hate to stop them even getting to ad naus.

[kjeldoran]

storm machup is terrible.. what bounce use them??

Tes bounce:1/2 chain of vapor = 1/2 target so we need more hate in board for expample 1 canonist and 1 chalice or null rod or solitary, so there isn t different.. again tes: they use 1/2 krosan grip = we need fast port or waste. for goblin it s easy or tabernacle or EE.

0 point for confinement

Ant bounce: 2 Hurkyl's Recall 2 Chain of Vapor 2 Krosan Grip 1 Wipe Away 1 Slaughter Pact = canonist is nothing.. all target can bounce it. krosan and wipe we need port and waste for denial. hurkyl's cannot touch enchantment so 1 point for lyliane white or solitary confinement. chain need chalice set1 and 0 or 1 null rod for 1 Mox Diamond 2 Chrome Mox 4 Lion's Eye Diamond 4 Lotus Petal. conclusion: MU impossible.

1 point for confinement

Spring Tide bounce: 1/2 Rebuild 1 chain of vapor 1 Nel Torbido 1 Wipe Away all wishable.. very very impossible but rebuild like hurkyl's don t targets enchantmens. so i think another point for confinement.

solitary confinement help vs progenitus (we have only chasm and maybe they have wasteland), price of progress (we have only chasm and maybe they have wasteland), annihilator (we have only karakas and maybe they have wasteland). show and tell is a difficult MU and solitary can give u some help. we can draw with confidant or loam so there isnt drawback with solidary in board, imho 1 slot for it in side can help.

VS storm we need more slot in side and we need play like a stompy/staxx: 1 defense grid 1 chalice 1 canonist 1 solitary confinement + 4bob and 1 enlightened tutor

this is my side:
4 bob
1 defense grid
1 chalice
1 canonist
1 solitary confinement
1 enlightened tutor
1 tormod's crypt
1 oblivion stone
1 cursed totem
2 krosan grip
1 i don t know.. i m testing :D trinisphere/null rod/extirpate/EE/meekstone(i play with cabal pit main deck)

[mchainmail]

storm machup is terrible.. what bounce use them??

Tes bounce:1/2 chain of vapor = 1/2 target so we need more hate in board for expample 1 canonist and 1 chalice or null rod or solitary, so there isn t different.. again tes: they use 1/2 krosan grip = we need fast port or waste. for goblin it s easy or tabernacle or EE.

0 point for confinement

Ant bounce: 2 Hurkyl's Recall 2 Chain of Vapor 2 Krosan Grip 1 Wipe Away 1 Slaughter Pact = canonist is nothing.. all target can bounce it. krosan and wipe we need port and waste for denial. hurkyl's cannot touch enchantment so 1 point for lyliane white or solitary confinement. chain need chalice set1 and 0 or 1 null rod for 1 Mox Diamond 2 Chrome Mox 4 Lion's Eye Diamond 4 Lotus Petal. conclusion: MU impossible.

1 point for confinement

Spring Tide bounce: 1/2 Rebuild 1 chain of vapor 1 Nel Torbido 1 Wipe Away all wishable.. very very impossible but rebuild like hurkyl's don t targets enchantmens. so i think another point for confinement.

solitary confinement help vs progenitus (we have only chasm and maybe they have wasteland), price of progress (we have only chasm and maybe they have wasteland), annihilator (we have only karakas and maybe they have wasteland). show and tell is a difficult MU and solitary can give u some help. we can draw with confidant or loam so there isnt drawback with solidary in board, imho 1 slot for it in side can help.

VS storm we need more slot in side and we need play like a stompy/staxx: 1 defense grid 1 chalice 1 canonist 1 solitary confinement + 4bob and 1 enlightened tutor

this is my side:
4 bob
1 defense grid
1 chalice
1 canonist
1 solitary confinement
1 enlightened tutor
1 tormod's crypt
1 oblivion stone
1 cursed totem
2 krosan grip
1 i don t know.. i m testing :D trinisphere/null rod/extirpate/EE/meekstone(i play with cabal pit main deck)

you don't get it. A competent Storm pilot will be able to bounce it after casting Ad Naus, which makes it useless. The best way to attack storm is to make it difficult for them to cast ad naus, not to give yourself shroud.

[ForlornEgoist]

I'm not a Lands player by any means, but I was just curious as to why Null Rod isn't being considered for the storm MU? Shutting off LED/Petal/random SDT essentially forces them to slow roll via cantrip into a CoV or other bounce. If I remember correctly, this also has little if any downside with your deck and it has uses for nearly every MU beyond Storm.

As for the above argument, yeah, a competant storm player can bounce something. But just because they have the ability to remove an obstacle doesn't mean you shouldn't run it. Similar arguments are made for decks like Rock/Loam/Lands: just because there exists dozens of answers for GY's doesn't mean said decks are junk.

I'm also curious how popular Chalice is for Lands. Yea, anti-synergy with E. Tutor, but I would rather opt for more answers and some anti-synergy than less answers period.

If you're really worried about hating for combo, GSZ? Enables you to tutor up Gaddock Teeg, Phyrexian Revoker, etc.

Again, I am by no means a Lands player so if something I said was completely erroneous for the style of the deck please explain to me why rather than flaming me.

Forlorn Egoist

[Julian23]

Thanks FE for bringing this up but right now, Null Rod is already used in most Land's players sideboard. As is Chalice.

[Rune]

As for the above argument, yeah, a competant storm player can bounce something. But just because they have the ability to remove an obstacle doesn't mean you shouldn't run it.


Leyline of Sanctity, Runed Halo, Solitary Confinement, etc. do close to nothing against storm combo because they only stop the finisher and not the engine itself. The only storm decks they can potentially shut down are the bad ones (read: Belcher). When you have drawn half your library with Ad Nauseam or Blue Sun's Zenith and have ∞ mana floating, it's just a formality to get rid of a couple of these cards. They are basically not obstacles for storm in any way, but if you have them in your SB already (for other matchups), you might as well bring them in, since they are better than nothing and there's a 0.01% chance they will win you the game if your opponent gets really unlucky or if he's just stupid.

If you really want to beat storm with slow decks like Lands and Enchantress, you will need to quickly dump multiple hate cards on the table (the kind that can't be ignored) and then get some kind of clock online while you look for more hate cards.

[Doomsday]

I'm not a Lands player by any means, but I was just curious as to why Null Rod isn't being considered for the storm MU? Shutting off LED/Petal/random SDT essentially forces them to slow roll via cantrip into a CoV or other bounce. If I remember correctly, this also has little if any downside with your deck and it has uses for nearly every MU beyond Storm.

As for the above argument, yeah, a competant storm player can bounce something. But just because they have the ability to remove an obstacle doesn't mean you shouldn't run it. Similar arguments are made for decks like Rock/Loam/Lands: just because there exists dozens of answers for GY's doesn't mean said decks are junk.


First I'll just say that I have way more experience playing TES and ANT than I do playing lands. From that perspective, the problem vs storm is that we have no relevant clock to make anti-storm cards relevant. At all. They have all the time in the world to sculpt their hand, find their answer, and just win because we're putting zero pressure on them. They don't care about recurring Wasteland because they can go off easily with one land given so much time. EE and Chasm locks do nothing. Bob and Tar Pit beats are not enough of a clock for them to care about, and there's no reason for them to try for Ad Nauseam rather than IGG against us anyway. In my humble opinion.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Let me start off by saying that storm is definitely a bad matchup, but I think people overestimate storm's ability to operate against Wasteland.

I am 4-0 in games with Lands against storm. Yes, I had some amazing hands. This is how I beat storm:

Game 1: He goes first with Underground Sea, Ponder, shuffle, draw. I Mox Diamond, Exploration, Wasteland his land, play factory. He tanks on land for 3 turns while I get there with 2 factories and no loam.

Game 2: I don't remember what he did. All I know is that I had Mox Diamond and I transmuted for Chalice on turn 2 and played it for 0. He Ad Nauseums next turn and kills himself due to being unable to play his LED's to get hellbent for the infernal he found. I got lucky that he did not hit a Tendrils, but I think it was a mistake for his to try to go off so quickly. Although I never saw them, 3 Extirpates out of the board are pretty solid here as well.

--------------

Game 1: This was 5 color, and this matchup is slightly better than the U/B I played before. I get a quick Waste-lock on him with the perfect hand of Manabond, Loam, and Wasteland. I end up getting there with factories pretty quickly. He had to mull and I think he had a loose keep.

Game 2: I Wastelanded early, and when he saw I got the loam engine he decided to ball out since I guess he did not think he could surive the ongoing waste-lock. He made about 14 goblins and I smashed them with a timely Explosives. I felt bad after these games because I knew the guy, and I was talking about how he was probably going to destroy me before the match.

So I highly doubt that this kind of luck will continue against storm, but I just wanted to share how Lands has the potential to beat almost anybody with degenerate plays. It's an awesome deck.

[Tammit67]

So I highly doubt that this kind of luck will continue against storm, but I just wanted to share how Lands has the potential to beat almost anybody who doesn't know what they are doing with degenerate plays. It's an awesome deck.

Edit: Fixed

[Barbwire]

you don't get it. A competent Storm pilot will be able to bounce it after casting Ad Naus, which makes it useless. The best way to attack storm is to make it difficult for them to cast ad naus, not to give yourself shroud.

I'm going to have to agree with McChainmail here. All the proposed answers so far can be (and will be) bounced by a competent player, the only way I've been able to increase my chances against storm have been to get an early trinisphere then immediatly follow it by a chalice set to one, preventing CoV from being cast and nullifying any positive mana increases from Led or dark ritual. In the games that I have done this I have won. But it isn't consistant enough to depend on each game due to the nature of how fast combo decks can go off.

@Doomsday: In terms of a relavent clock. That's why I've kept Mishra's factory in my build. After playing ANT for a couple months and understanding (mostly) some obvious weaknessess I've found that ANT will most likely not go for Ad Naus if there life is at or close to 10, which isn't a failsafe but it does require the ANT player to instead take the course of IGG. Which isn't always a sure win, if the incorrect mana excels are in the graveyard then the combo is pretty much done.

[Patrunkenphat7]

@Tammit:

I believe you misquoted me. The first player could not do anything about being raped by Wasteland, and even if he sat and stared at my Chalice for a while, I'm pretty sure that match would have ended the same... He got top 16 that day at Starcity.

[Tammit67]

@Tammit:

I believe you misquoted me. The first player could not do anything about being raped by Wasteland, and even if he sat and stared at my Chalice for a while, I'm pretty sure that match would have ended the same... He got top 16 that day at Starcity.

He could have mulliganed. He took the risk that a one land ponder hand would get himself more lands, and an opposing waste wouldn't have been a problem. It was a loose keep considering the number of wastelands floating around in todays meta. The most important thing for him to have done game two would be to combo off with enough mana floating for his bounce spells, which I hope he moved in from his sideboard. Your chalice then would have been ineffectual had the opponent been able to see what he needed to do properly. Combo players lose this matchup because they cannot focus enough.

Do you stll think I am misquoting you?

[Patrunkenphat7]

He could have mulliganed. He took the risk that a one land ponder hand would get himself more lands, and an opposing waste wouldn't have been a problem. It was a loose keep considering the number of wastelands floating around in todays meta. The most important thing for him to have done game two would be to combo off with enough mana floating for his bounce spells, which I hope he moved in from his sideboard. Your chalice then would have been ineffectual had the opponent been able to see what he needed to do properly. Combo players lose this matchup because they cannot focus enough.

Do you stll think I am misquoting you?

Actually yes, you did misquote me... Adding words to someone's quotation is called misquoting.

There is no way that you can speculate on what the player should have done considering neither of us saw his opening hand. Maybe he just needed one more card to go off that turn, who knows. And in game 2, he killed himself pretty quickly off of Ad Nauseum without seeing bounce, so leaving mana up was not the issue... You sound like an angry combo player writing in the wrong thread.

[Tammit67]

Actually yes, you did misquote me... Adding words to someone's quotation is called misquoting.

There is no way that you can speculate on what the player should have done considering neither of us saw his opening hand. Maybe he just needed one more card to go off that turn, who knows. And in game 2, he killed himself pretty quickly off of Ad Nauseum without seeing bounce, so leaving mana up was not the issue... You sound like an angry combo player writing in the wrong thread.

Then I apologize for misquoting you and leave it at that.

Of course I am an angry combo player. But I'm one that has learned to beat mchainmail despite his 7-9 card sideboard plan.

[mchainmail]

Then I apologize for misquoting you and leave it at that.

Of course I am an angry combo player. But I'm one that has learned to beat mchainmail despite his 7-9 card sideboard plan.

I've 2-0ed a storm player, I've beaten storm twice in tournaments, I've only lost once to a Storm player besides Matt in tournaments. But that doesn't mean it's a good matchup. All it means is most Storm players say "hey look I don't know how to beat a single hate card against me."

Matt fixed your post, you should thank him for telling you what you meant to say and not be an ass about things.

[Tammit67]

Matt fixed your post, you should thank him for telling you what you meant to say and not be an ass about things.

No need to start a flame war...

[Dramma]

lets focus on the deck gentlemen..

I just saw this http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5801&iddeck=42018 and am still amused.

Do you think 31 are enough lands to play this deck?
Did you play against merfolks/goblins/zoo etc without tabernacle and didn´t suffer?
Were 4 SDT not many?

I like de gameplan you are taking on the deck because I play kinda like you. I don´t want to dredge all time and want to draw-play lands for a few turns instead going crazy with manabond and dredging loam, but sometimes i feel I miss some things like more win conditions, or faster win conditions (like quimeric mass, mindslaver or factories) instead of only one. I have to say I am testing a pretty similar list but without the fourth Top, I really like that card in the deck because it simply nuts when you see EOT and decide to dredge or not, to search with E.tutor or not and find things faster, but I hate having 2 in my opening hand.

Another card I am not sure about is Meekstone. I agree it´s a good card, but having to take one hit from each creature before it takes care of them doesn´t seem happy. But I think it´s fine to have more targets for qasali pridemage and not being sold out when a singleton qasali breaks your bridge and wins.

I am now playing with the tabernacle (as 32nd land) instead of the fourth SDTop, and for now I am not unhappy with the list, because I like the gameplan, but I have a lot of doubts with the list.

Some explanation about the decreasing number of lands?

[mchainmail]

lets focus on the deck gentlemen..

I just saw this http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5801&iddeck=42018 and am still amused.

Do you think 31 are enough lands to play this deck?
Did you play against merfolks/goblins/zoo etc without tabernacle and didn´t suffer?
Were 4 SDT not many?

I like de gameplan you are taking on the deck because I play kinda like you. I don´t want to dredge all time and want to draw-play lands for a few turns instead going crazy with manabond and dredging loam, but sometimes i feel I miss some things like more win conditions, or faster win conditions (like quimeric mass, mindslaver or factories) instead of only one. I have to say I am testing a pretty similar list but without the fourth Top, I really like that card in the deck because it simply nuts when you see EOT and decide to dredge or not, to search with E.tutor or not and find things faster, but I hate having 2 in my opening hand.

Another card I am not sure about is Meekstone. I agree it´s a good card, but having to take one hit from each creature before it takes care of them doesn´t seem happy. But I think it´s fine to have more targets for qasali pridemage and not being sold out when a singleton qasali breaks your bridge and wins.

I am now playing with the tabernacle (as 32nd land) instead of the fourth SDTop, and for now I am not unhappy with the list, because I like the gameplan, but I have a lot of doubts with the list.

Some explanation about the decreasing number of lands?

someone copied the deck wrong. -3 top, +2 fetch, +1 tabernacle. Same list as every other tournament.

[fdiv_bug]

someone copied the deck wrong. -3 top, +2 fetch, +1 tabernacle. Same list as every other tournament.

I was wondering why you might've made such a dramatic change... :smile:

[fdiv_bug]

I was chatting and testing with some of the local guys tonight in preparation for Atlanta, and one of them had a suggestion that had not occurred to me before as a sideboard card to help with the combo matchup, along with other decks that run toolboxes and tutors: Jester's Cap.

Thoughts?

[mchainmail]

I was chatting and testing with some of the local guys tonight in preparation for Atlanta, and one of them had a suggestion that had not occurred to me before as a sideboard card to help with the combo matchup, along with other decks that run toolboxes and tutors: Jester's Cap.

Thoughts?

It's certainly interesting, kinda like running Telemin Performance for AnT for the mirror.

Unfortunately, I play against TES far, far more than AnT, so I can't just remove three cards to get there. Against AnT though, it seems slow but bearable as an additional piece of hate (you would need to resolve something else that game to get there though, like Chalice / Canonist.)

[fdiv_bug]

It's certainly interesting, kinda like running Telemin Performance for AnT for the mirror.

Unfortunately, I play against TES far, far more than AnT, so I can't just remove three cards to get there. Against AnT though, it seems slow but bearable as an additional piece of hate (you would need to resolve something else that game to get there though, like Chalice / Canonist.)

Definitely would not be my only combo hate in the board. It's also worth keeping in mind that since it's a sacrifice cost to activate, it could be recurred with Academy Ruins. Shuffle much? :tongue:

There's also the additional challenge that comes with any modification to an existing list -- what comes out to make room for it, and would the Cap be better than whatever that card might be?

[kjeldoran]

what do u think about In The Eye Of Chaos vs storm?? all bounce are istant so it works very well.
Any combo as:
in the eye of chaos + chalice 0/1
iteoc + trinisphere
iteoc + white leyline
iteoc + canonist

there is some efficent lock with 2 cards or we need 3 cards for a iron lock?

[fdiv_bug]

what do u think about In The Eye Of Chaos vs storm?? all bounce are istant so it works very well.
Any combo as:
in the eye of chaos + chalice 0/1
iteoc + trinisphere
iteoc + white leyline
iteoc + canonist

there is some efficent lock with 2 cards or we need 3 cards for a iron lock?
Now that is some outside-the-box thinking. I love it when old cards turn back up again. That said, I dunno how great it'd be since they do use a number of key sorceries. It'd really only hinder their bounce, chant-style effects, and rituals. Not completely useless, but I don't know if it'd be better than the tools we've already got.

[fdiv_bug]

mchainmail, I'm following a great deal -- by which I mean, almost all -- of your advice as I learn to pilot this deck better, and mad crazy thanks for writing what I consider to be one of the best primers ever written for any deck.

I'm curious about how you -- and others, for that matter, if folks have comments -- usually board against Affinity. Obviously Null Rod comes in, along with Oblivion Stone and the two Krosan Grips; I'm thinking I'd board out the two Manabond, the Meekstone (I actually run Meekstone in my Affinity board, so it seems pretty poor), and Karakas. Is Smokestack any good against them? It doesn't seem like it would be since they can vomit out permanents as fast as or faster than us, but I'm not that familiar with the subtleties of the card so I could be wrong.

Is there other stuff I'm overlooking?

[mchainmail]

mchainmail, I'm following a great deal -- by which I mean, almost all -- of your advice as I learn to pilot this deck better, and mad crazy thanks for writing what I consider to be one of the best primers ever written for any deck.

I'm curious about how you -- and others, for that matter, if folks have comments -- usually board against Affinity. Obviously Null Rod comes in, along with Oblivion Stone and the two Krosan Grips; I'm thinking I'd board out the two Manabond, the Meekstone (I actually run Meekstone in my Affinity board, so it seems pretty poor), and Karakas. Is Smokestack any good against them? It doesn't seem like it would be since they can vomit out permanents as fast as or faster than us, but I'm not that familiar with the subtleties of the card so I could be wrong.

Is there other stuff I'm overlooking?

Thank you for the kind words.

Smokestack is an advantage engine; it doesn't care how fast permanents come in, only that they come in at all. Affinity is all permanents, but has almost no advantage (Thoughtcast) which makes it really good still.

The board plan sounds perfectly fine.

[fdiv_bug]

Smokestack is an advantage engine; it doesn't care how fast permanents come in, only that they come in at all. Affinity is all permanents, but has almost no advantage (Thoughtcast) which makes it really good still.

The board plan sounds perfectly fine.
Awesome, I appreciate the pointers.

Since I apparently enjoy tossing out ideas just to spark discussion and thought, I'd like to share a card that occurred to me this evening as I was on my way to the grocery store: Expedition Map.

With the number of "bullet" lands we run -- Tabernacle, Karakas, and Academy Ruins, of course, but even Wasteland, Port, and Maze since if you need one of those at any moment, you really need one -- a land tutor could be exceptionally handy, so dig this guy up with Enlightened Tutor and go to town. You can also do clever things with it like Map up a Tranquil Thicket to immediately cycle it to save your Loam, or grab a Tolaria West and turn that into an Explosives or ZOrb. It's recurrable with Academy Ruins to the point where if you weren't in any real hurry early on, Ruins could be your first Map target, from which point you could start going and getting whatever else you needed every turn. It's a shuffle effect for Top, it's a late fetch that doesn't cost life (I have won several games at one life, and if I'd been able to fetch it would've been a lot faster), and with Ruins recursion it's yet another "don't deck me, bro!" piece. It doesn't do dishes, though. I checked, and now I have a waterlogged Expedition Map. :frown:

The drawbacks are pretty standard fare, the most significant of which being what would be cut to fit it in? My first guess would be Entomb, but that would put us back down to four Loams. Possibly could move something out to the side, but that doesn't actually solve the slot problem, just changes where in your 75 the problem lives. It also doesn't find Loam, which really sucks. It takes 3 mana to use at sorcery speed, but you could at least spread that over a couple turns if things were tight. And it combos poorly with Null Rod, but that's not exactly backbreaking -- either just pay attention to the order in which you'll need to play things, or bring out the Map when you bring in the Rod.

Anyway, just an idea that struck that I wanted to open up for discussion and consideration.

[ESG]

With the number of "bullet" lands we run -- Tabernacle, Karakas, and Academy Ruins, of course, but even Wasteland, Port, and Maze since if you need one of those at any moment, you really need one -- a land tutor could be exceptionally handy, so dig this guy up with Enlightened Tutor and go to town. You can also do clever things with it like Map up a Tranquil Thicket to immediately cycle it to save your Loam, or grab a Tolaria West and turn that into an Explosives or ZOrb. It's recurrable with Academy Ruins to the point where if you weren't in any real hurry early on, Ruins could be your first Map target, from which point you could start going and getting whatever else you needed every turn.

Tolaria West does everything Expedition Map does and more. If you want to examine land tutor options beyond that, I recommend Crop Rotation. When I ran a green-red configuration of Lands, Realms Uncharted was decent.

Expedition Map: slow, sorcery-speed, susceptible to counterspells, finds only lands
Tolaria West: slow, sorcery-speed, counterproof, can find any land or any 0 CMC spell
Crop Rotation: fast, instant-speed, susceptible to counterspells, finds only lands, net loss of a land if it is countered

[fdiv_bug]

Tolaria West does everything Expedition Map does and more. If you want to examine land tutor options beyond that, I recommend Crop Rotation. When I ran a green-red configuration of Lands, Realms Uncharted was decent.

Expedition Map: slow, sorcery-speed, susceptible to counterspells, finds only lands
Tolaria West: slow, sorcery-speed, counterproof, can find any land or any 0 CMC spell
Crop Rotation: fast, instant-speed, susceptible to counterspells, finds only lands, net loss of a land if it is countered

These are all good points. Honestly, I had forgotten about Crop Rotation because I don't use it. (And for what it's worth, I'm not likely to use Expedition Map, either; I just like to discuss cards and see them discussed :smile: .)

[Dramma]

In sideboard terms, as we have a great pairing against aggro decks, how do you see to change the ghostly prison in the sideboard for a COP: Red, it continues helping against goblins or zoo and saves us from price of progress. Sure prison also helps with merfolks, elves, or any aggro decks, but with e.bridge, meekstone, tabernacle, etc.. I don´t usually care of them attacking me. Thoughts?

PS: I wasn´t pleased with meekstone at first, but after some games it has been absolutely insane. SDTop also has been great.

[mchainmail]

In sideboard terms, as we have a great pairing against aggro decks, how do you see to change the ghostly prison in the sideboard for a COP: Red, it continues helping against goblins or zoo and saves us from price of progress. Sure prison also helps with merfolks, elves, or any aggro decks, but with e.bridge, meekstone, tabernacle, etc.. I don´t usually care of them attacking me. Thoughts?

PS: I wasn´t pleased with meekstone at first, but after some games it has been absolutely insane. SDTop also has been great.

COP:Red (and Aegis of Honor) are valid meta choices. They're not really great against Goblins though, as most of the time we can stop their large creatures and get swarmed by 1/1s.


Meekstone isn't for creatures that attack... it's for creatures that do more damage by never attacking. Knight of the Reliquary is far less scary when they only get one use out of it.

[GoldenCid]

I'm a bit upset for the change from lands deck to artifact + enchantments + lands deck....should we opoen a new thread maybe¿?

[kjeldoran]

i don t understand why use meekstone vs knight of reliquary..... a deck that play kotr play also qasali... why don t use cursed totem in main deck??? it s much better than meekstone if u want block kort, qasali, noble, ecc ecc

[mchainmail]

i don t understand why use meekstone vs knight of reliquary..... a deck that play kotr play also qasali... why don t use cursed totem in main deck??? it s much better than meekstone if u want block kort, qasali, noble, ecc ecc

Meekstone also buys infinite amounts of time against threshold aggrieved decks, and does something relevant in almost every match, as opposed to the totem that is dead half the time. Also, my meta previously had a lot of new horizons, and still does despite it being terrible.

[Dramma]

I'm a bit upset for the change from lands deck to artifact + enchantments + lands deck....should we opoen a new thread maybe¿?

I don´t think the change is that big so we can open a new thread, it´s the same deck but evolved to a different game plan. I hardly recommend you to test with e.tutor and artifacts because I was in the same situation as you before I tested it. You can solve many troubles with e. tutor and entomb, while with intuition you have to be waiting for your moment. As if you have manabond and can´t activate until third turn because of playing an intuition that is surely going to be dazed or pierced. I really love crucible + smokestack + e.bridge in my current list. While E.Tutor gives the deck a lot of solutions in only 3 slots, also giving us a better sideboard plan against almost every deck.

I also wanted to ask mchainmail, why the sideboard plans you give in your primer include in almost every match the side out of tranquil thicket? I use to keep them for preventing graveyard hate, and are also great for card advantage.

[Fuzzy]

Quick and Dirty: Anyone tried Jace TMS here?

[The_Red_Panda]

Quick and Dirty: Anyone tried Jace TMS here?

Can't E-tutor for it or put it on top with Academy Ruins. I was thinking about the new Karn, and came to the exact same stopping point; without the ability to recur or tutor for the card it's not going to do well as a 1-of win condition, and it isn't doing enough as a 3-4 of to merit inclusion.

[plus_ten]

I prefer 5 ET targets (aside from the 4 exploration, 3 manabond):
Ghostly prison/Rule of Law (aggro or combo hate)
SDT (something new)
Zuran Orb (standard combo hate)
EE (standard aggro/permanent hate)
Ensnaring Bridge

Other potential choices: pithing needle, expedition map (but eats up a valuable bullet spot).

I may cut the Ensnaring bridge for null rod or cursed totem, due to the need for manabond to get this thing active, but the problem is that if ghostly prison dies, it cannot be recurred by Academy Ruins. The new 3WW prison artifact from NPH is lacklustre since the attacker can just pay 2 life or even just the W (and we want a broad answer vs zoo and EtW rather than just EtW).

[kjeldoran]

what do u think about the new Spellsplitter in NPH for give a protection to canonist in storm mu?

[Tim the Enchanter]

I also wanted to ask mchainmail, why the sideboard plans you give in your primer include in almost every match the side out of tranquil thicket? I use to keep them for preventing graveyard hate, and are also great for card advantage.

I think it's a matter of what is going to be more effective for the match. Thicket is a great source of CA but it doesn't actually do anything without a LftL and the deck is so tight there just isn't room for things that don't help you stabilize or establish a lock.


I prefer 5 ET targets (aside from the 4 exploration, 3 manabond):
Ghostly prison/Rule of Law (aggro or combo hate)
SDT (something new)
Zuran Orb (standard combo hate)
EE (standard aggro/permanent hate)
Ensnaring Bridge

Other potential choices: pithing needle, expedition map (but eats up a valuable bullet spot).

I may cut the Ensnaring bridge for null rod or cursed totem, due to the need for manabond to get this thing active, but the problem is that if ghostly prison dies, it cannot be recurred by Academy Ruins. The new 3WW prison artifact from NPH is lacklustre since the attacker can just pay 2 life or even just the W (and we want a broad answer vs zoo and EtW rather than just EtW).

I will probably never play without Ensaring Bridge at least in the 75 ever again. I won a small, 16 player, event with this deck about a week ago and E Bridge won a ton of the games. I actually used Phyrexian Revoker instead of Needle because it can hit mana abilities, which was relevant because I saw Combo Elves, and later ANT, being played before the start. Null Rod is really good at larger events because it really hurts ANT/TES and Affinity, unfortunately it doesn't stop Tezz 2.0 :(

I posted my report with this deck in the Lands thread on MTGS and will repost it here when I get home. They just switched servers at work so now I MTGS is blocked and The Source is unblocked. Legacy is the only format I actually play so this site is much more suited for me than MTGS. I'm glad to be part of this community and am looking forward contributing.

[Fuzzy]

Hi Folks! I'm new with this deck, and I'm playing the UGb version.

I would like to ask: Do you guys board in Dark Confidant against the Junk player? My teammates are saying that they will board out their discard spells and leave in StPs. It's make sense for you?

In any case, a friend sugested Dark Tutelage instead the Confidant. Would it be better?

[ScatmanX]

...In any case, a ScatmanX sugested Dark Tutelage instead the Confidant. Would it be better?
thanks.

[fdiv_bug]

In any case, a friend sugested Dark Tutelage instead the Confidant. Would it be better?

I dislike the fact that it costs 1 mana more, and also isn't a clock -- I've won games with Bob because he can attack for 2. Tutelage is tutorable, though, which has some value.

[Fuzzy]

I dislike the fact that it costs 1 mana more, and also isn't a clock -- I've won games with Bob because he can attack for 2. Tutelage is tutorable, though, which has some value.

Well, I'm playing without Enlightened Tutors, so I can't search for it.

How do you board out against Junk?

[fdiv_bug]

How do you board out against Junk?

Based on my performance this past weekend, poorly. :frown: (Though realistically, I probably still would've had the match had I not made a decklist error when writing up my list -- I won game 2 since he couldn't board in any of his grave hate, but then game 3 he blew me out by bringing in Leyline instead of Extirpate, which he said he does because his local store has a whole bunch of Dredge players. If I'd had another game to go then I would've brought in the Grips.)

I was running a slightly altered list from what mchainmail had posted in his primer, with Cursed Totem main and Humility in the board just to try `em out, which I'll be posting below for some discussion when I have the time in the next day or two. From what I can recall, my boarding was -2 Manabond, -1 Glacial Chasm, -1 Cursed Totem, -1 Life from the Loam, -1 Tranquil Thicket, for +3 Bob, +1 Humility, and +2 Extirpate.

[ScatmanX]

Well, I'm playing without Enlightened Tutors, so I can't search for it.
Doesn't Intuition search for it?

[Barbwire]

[QUOTE=fdiv_bug;534907]Based on my performance this past weekend, poorly. :frown: (Though realistically, I probably still would've had the match had I not made a decklist error when writing up my list

AHHHHHH!!!!, that means we actually had a draw round 5 hellz ya ;)


By the way....I still have nightmares about that lands mirror match :P

[Tim the Enchanter]

This is my promised tournament report copied straight from MTGS. After playing a little more I think the one of Factory will become a Tarpit.


I saw the Star City primer on Enlightened Tutor lands and thought it was pretty genius. I used to play GWR lands and played Intuition lands for a minute, I loved Intuition in theory but always hated it in reality. My LGS finally had a Legacy tournament today, 16 people, and decided to play Enlightened Tutor Lands because I had lent a friend the deck I was originally gonna play since I didn't think I'd be able to make it.

Here's the list I played (thanks mchainmail):

1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensaring Bridge
1 Meekstone
4 Mox Diamond
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Smokestack
1 Zuran Orb

4 Exploration
2 Manabond
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Intuition
4 Life From the Loam

1 Forest
1 Academy Ruins
1 Bayou
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
4 Maze of Ith
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Rishadan Port
1 Savannah
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Tolaria West
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard
1 Chalice of the Void
4 Dark Confidant
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Extirpate
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Krosan Grip
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Serenity
1 Tormod's Crypt

I played Mishra's Factory over Creeping Tar Pit because I figured the 1 activation cost would be a big deal and I hate lands that CiP tapped. It turned out just fine and I think I'll leave it that way. I played Intuition over Entomb because I don't own Entomb and I like that Intuition will get me whatever card I would've Entombed for plus 2.

In the SB I went with Serenity over Null Rod because I knew at least one person was playing Tezzfinity (without Ravager) and figured wiping the board was better than Null Rodding them and dying to Tezz. Turns out I was right. I couldn't get hold of a Cursed Totem or Oblivion Stone so I went with Phyrexian Revoker, because I wanted to be able to hit mana ability's mostly due to combo elves, and a second Ghostly Prison.

I didn't lose a single game!

Round 1: Junk
Kept opener of Manabond, 2 Exploration, 2 Wasteland, 1 Port, and a Bayou. He plays Bayou. I play Manabond and dump my hand onto the table wasting his Bayou. I draw Loam on my third and he concedes.

SB -2 Thicket, -2 Manabond, -1 LftL, -1 Glacial Chasm/+2 Extirpate, +1 Revoker, +3 Bob
I play Ensaring Bridge T2 and then lock him out with Wastelands.
1-0

Round 2: CounterTop Thopter
Game 1 goes almost to time. He pitches Jace, it's his only other blue card, to Force a T1 Exploration. I play and start beating with Mishra's Factory because my Wasteland is useless against his 800 basics. Eventually I start recurring Ghost Quarter until he runs out of land, but in the meantime he finds a Moat (to stop my loan Factory lol) and his other Jace with a Pithing Needle on Rishadan Port. Jace gets to 13 and I play E Tutor for Explosives, draw tap my Bayou, Savannah, and 2 Trops for EE at 4 and bust it taking out Jace and Moat. He gets the Thopter combo going but is shut out by Glacial Chasm, with Crucible out, and Tabernacle. Eventually he's out of lands and I start swinging with the Factory again and show him that I can recur Mox Diamonds or EE with Academy Ruins. He scoops and time is called while we are sideboarding.
2-0

R3: UW Tempo
T4/5 He's beating my face and Forces something, which was my plan, and then for Forces my Smokestack :( He then equips Sword of Body and Mind, not knowing what I'm playing, and hits me giving me a Wasteland and a bunch of other junk. I use Glacial Chasm to stop the pain and lock him out with Wasteland and Tabernacle.

SB: -1 Thicket, -2 Manabond, -1 Intuition/+2 Extirpate, +2 Bob
He leads with Tundra and Weathered Wayfarer, which I expected as well as Jotun Grunt G1. I play Wasteland, Mox Diamond, pitching Maze, Waste his Tundra, play Exploration, drop Tabernacle. He obviously sacs the Wayfarer and doesn't have another land to play. EoT I Enlightened Tutor for Crucible and he scoops.
3-0

Round 4 I'm the only 3-0 and I draw with Merfolk into T8.
3-0-1

T8 Affinity
He gets a Cranial Plating on Memnite with a Signal Pest and beats me down. I drop Ensaring Bridge and Empty my hand on T3. Ornithopter and Signal Pest continue to swing until I'm down to 4, meanwhile I keep him off of U/B mana together and play Tabernacle to keep his creatures from swinging. I drop a Smokestack and leave it at 1 until he scoops.
SB: -1 Meekstone, -1 Karakas, -2 Tranquil Thicket, -1 Manabond, -1 LftL/+1 Serenity, +2 K Grip, +2 Ghostly Prison, +1 Phyrexian Revoker
G2 He leads with a Relic of Progenitus and I Ghost Quarter his Vault of Whispers, GQ gets RfG. He lands a couple things and I Wasteland another Vault and a Blinkmoth using Port to keep another Blinkmoth tapped down. He plays a Cranial Plating and I topdeck Serenity. He doesn't to equip the plating and he loses his board,minus Darksteel Citadel :(, and I lose an Exploration. I get a Top and start digging eventually recurring EE and he scoops.
4-0-1

T4: Doran Rock (I lent him most of the deck so I know exactly what he's playing and that there are no Wastelands or Gaddock Teeg)
G1: Ensaring Bridge holds off the beats while Ghost Quarter with Crucible and Exploration lock him up.
SB -1 Karakas, -1 Tranquil Thicket, -1 Manabond, -1 Glacial Chasm/+4 Bob
T1 He plays Pithing Needle naming Ghost Quarter and I literally laugh out loud. T2 He plays Pithing Needle naming Wasteland and I frown. I play 2 Maze of Ith and eventually use Tolaria West to find EE and Academy Ruins and just repeatedly wreck him.
5-0-1

Championship: Painter's Stone transforming into Show and Tell
The guy wants to hit the road cause he has a long drive so we split and we both get what we want. I don't really like the MU so I was happy to do it since I still got what I wanted.

Overall I love the way this Lands plays better than any other version I've played. It's not as heavily dependent on the GY and therefore harder to hate on. You never get 2 Intuitions and a Manabond in your opener. You can often wait till T3 to play Intuition. Enlightened Tutor is a house and still having Tolaria West is great.

[fdiv_bug]

AHHHHHH!!!!, that means we actually had a draw round 5 hellz ya ;)

By the way....I still have nightmares about that lands mirror match :P

Yeah, it's not the most exciting thing ever. :tongue: I thought we had pretty good games, though, with a lot of back-and-forth.

[Moosedog]

The Mirror is a nightmare! I had to play mchainmail 2x in 1 tournament. In the first rd we ended up drawing due to time. the 2nd time was 1st rd of top 8 which he beat me unfortunately.

[Barbwire]

Yeah, it's not the most exciting thing ever. :tongue: I thought we had pretty good games, though, with a lot of back-and-forth.

It was a learning experience for me, didn't think I would ever do a mirror with this archtype :) are you going to goto the Charlotte Open?

[fdiv_bug]

It was a learning experience for me, didn't think I would ever do a mirror with this archtype :) are you going to goto the Charlotte Open?

Yeah, the cost of Tabernacle keeps the archetype pretty well in check, for better or worse. I'm absolutely going to be in Charlotte, and almost certainly going to be up at the GPT at Star City this Saturday. See you at either/both?

[Barbwire]

Yeah, the cost of Tabernacle keeps the archetype pretty well in check, for better or worse. I'm absolutely going to be in Charlotte, and almost certainly going to be up at the GPT at Star City this Saturday. See you at either/both?

I'm going to be at Day 1&2 of SCG Charlotte, wanted to be at the GPT but I'm on call this weekend for my work. Since I haven't posted anything useful in awhile I've got a question for anybody who wants to chime in, I recently changed my main wincon from an Avenger of Zendikar to a snake basket, so far in testing its worked pretty well, has anybody else tested this as their wincon?

[Tim the Enchanter]

I'll probably be at Charlotte as well. The question is: do you think this is the right deck to play? We have a terrible MU against combo which seems to be the archetype of the week. Plus, with the amount of Dredge placing recently no one is going to forget their graveyard hate for this one. The lack of Aggro and CB decks makes me think that this isn't the right time to play Lands.

[mchainmail]

I top 8ed the Toughest GPT in the country (TM) at Vestal, NY this weekend, with the only real change cutting Top for Dark Tutelage. I don't know how that worked out, I haven't cast it yet. The logic is sometimes you want to E-Tutor for action... and that's action. Dark Confidant is better post-board, just because it's so powerful... *and* it can turn sideways. Plus we can kill it if we need to.

Dramma,

It's partly a function of my dislike of the card, sometimes I just want to cut it completely. Also, nobody is playing grave hate right now, so it's slightly less relevant. I feel you need somethng like 4+ pieces of grave hate to stop this deck, and people playing fewer just doesn't get there.

plus_ten,

Ensnaring Bridge is good. If you can't get under Bridge, you need to practice more; re-evaluate your early Life from the Loams to see if you took too many lands back.

Fuzzy,

Dark Confidant keeps everyone honest. Also, they need to get White mana for Swords, which hurts their other plans by needing to fetch an early basic Plains.

fdiv_bug,
-2 Manabond, -1 Glacial Chasm, -1 Cursed Totem, for +3 Bob, +1 Humility seems fine. I don't like Humility here because it's very hard to cast.

I stopped boarding in Extirpate because Junk has stopped boarding in Extirpate (usually Bog and Spellbomb now)

Moosedog,
The mirror is fun, I don't know why you think it isn't.

Tim,
If I felt equally comfortable with this deck and another deck, I'd play the other deck. But if you're far more comfortable with one than the other, I'd play that one.


I'm going to play some matches against Combo and see what they look like post-board. In a local last night, I played: 3 Mindbreak Trap, 1 Arcane Lab, 2 Chalice of the Void, 1 Null Rod, 1 Canonist, 4 Dark Confidant (1 Crypt, 1 Extirpate, 1 K-Grip) in my board.

Are there any other cards besides these that I should look at for the combo MU? I know Sphere of Resistance (or Thorn), Leyline of Sanctity, Trinisphere and In The Eye of Chaos are also options.

[Moosedog]

Mike,

IMO Rule of law is better then Arcane Lab. Reason being your already running canonist and E-tutor, why not just stick with all white? If you fetch the savanah turn 1 to use Etutor you know you will have the W to play it. No one is playing anarchy, lol.

If we can swing more b somehow i think oppression would be very effective, not sure how to do it though. Urborg doesnt seem like the best option.

and about the mirror, i havent played it since that tournament so not sure how i would feel about it again today. But i definately was not ready for it then it back then.

[mchainmail]

Mike,

IMO Rule of law is better then Arcane Lab. Reason being your already running canonist and E-tutor, why not just stick with all white? If you fetch the savanah turn 1 to use Etutor you know you will have the W to play it. No one is playing anarchy, lol.

If we can swing more b somehow i think oppression would be very effective, not sure how to do it though. Urborg doesnt seem like the best option.

and about the mirror, i havent played it since that tournament so not sure how i would feel about it again today. But i definately was not ready for it then it back then.

The issue is I don't have a foil Rule of Law :(

It's really just about getting options in the end, I don't know which one is better. 100% of the time I'm going to tutor for Canonist on turn 1 anyways.

[Moosedog]

The issue is I don't have a foil Rule of Law :(

It's really just about getting options in the end, I don't know which one is better. 100% of the time I'm going to tutor for Canonist on turn 1 anyways.

I agree with going Canonist 1st as well. But you second tutor should be for Rule of Law/Arcane Lab bc its an enchantment, (unless you have around 8 land then zuran might be an option). But i guess were assuming we will have U by second tutor which is fair.

Your thought on oppression?

[into_play]

Hello players of Lands! I've been a long time reader of this thread (well, for the last 10 pages or so) and upon finally attaining a Tabernacle, I feel I have at last acquired the complete package for one of the most frustrating control decks (for opponents, at least from what I've gathered). However, I haven't actually seen the deck in action very often, so I had a couple of questions to ask some of you veterans of the deck.

1. How does this deck compare to Stax? I know much more about how Stax plays, so I could always use the Tabernacle in that deck, but I know that Stax is one of those power-over-consistency decks, much more explosive but also with a lot more potential dangers. It is also an unusual proactive control deck, where Lands is more of a traditional reactive one. Does Lands edge Stax in consistently seeing through its own gameplan? Is Lands as easy to disrupt with a well-timed counterspell or Disenchant effect as the prison deck? What metagames would be better for Lands and which would be better for Stax? Sorry if this doesn't pertain to everyone in the discussion, but I figure some of you must have some experience either playing or watching other Stax decks as well. And I know that even though this is the 43 Lands thread, there still must be some merit for Stax (it is much more effective against combo decks, for example).

2. How do aggro matchups typically play out as Lands, specifically against Merfolk and Goblins? I know that aggro matchups are meant to be one of Lands' favorable matchups, and it's easy to assume on paper that Maze of Ith, Tabernacle and factory chump blockers would slow down aggression, but I can also imagine either of those aforementioned decks overwhelming the Lands player over time, with Lands being unable to gain some sort of inevitability over them in a reasonable time. Against those decks, do you just aim to draw out as many Mazes as possible from your own deck as soon as possible? Because that seems awfully slow and also not too kind on your mana base. Additionally, those decks both run their own Wastelands, making your powerful lands less reliable. Maybe I am missing something when thinking about these matchups, but I would just like to know what an effective gameplan is.

3. Is there no more love for Mishra's Factory? To kind of go along with my second question, it seems like factories would serve as quality chump blockers when trying to stabilize early against aggro, but recent lists seem to have cut the man-lands altogether. They are a win condition (very late, of course) and they can activate much more efficiently than the Zendikar ones. What is the reason for them falling out of favor? I mean, there's something appealing about slowly poking a disheartened opponent to death with assembly workers after the game has been all but won. =)

I've read a lot about the Enlightened Tutor builds, but despite the excellent primer, I think I will try the original Lands builds first. I feel like cutting the Intuitions, depending less on Manabond, and exchanging land slots for artifacts takes away from the strengths of the deck, which include searching out lots of situational lands and playing lots of situational lands. The Enlightened builds seem kind of like a cross between the old 43 Lands builds and a sort of UW control, almost like the mono white Quinn deck. I wish to abuse a lot of lands as much as possible, and I thought this mercadia build might be a good place to start:

http://mercadia.de/home/page.php?site=magic/deck2/deck&id=88289

Anyways, I hope sticking with the traditional build won't turn you all away from offering your insight; I will probably test the Enlightened build eventually. I look forward to hearing more and finally playing this great deck!

[ramanujan]

As far as how lands wins against the folk and goblins, all I can say is that getting to lockdown is pretty important. The relevent cards in the matchup are Chasm, Maze, explosives, Zorb, and probably most important is bridge. The goal when playing them is to ramp to or survive until you can lock with Chasm or more ideally Bridge. An explosives recursion lock is also doable but less probable as goblins have hast guys and merfolk have mutavault to finish you off. Fast starts are wins against these matchups because with the tutoring the deck has available, a fast start can lead to a quick lock or enough stall to get the lock. A few things to be aware of are of course thier Wastelands, as a Chasm Lock lost for one turn can be pretty bad in the late game, and that your Mazes are not all that great if the folk use Kira. Intuition is pretty awesome in setting up either one of the locks in addition to getting the Loam engine going, so I would keep them in if you are not going the enlightenned tutor route.

For what it is worth, the Chris W blue lands configuration is pretty good against dredge if you have one Tomb Main and 2+ other GY hate side as you have many ways to get it, ways to recur it, and factories to sac to wastelands to kill the bridges. They cant do much against a resolved Chasm unless they play the Angel as a recur target so given the chance, I will go there. Dredges discard outside of turn one is pretty irrelevent, but if they board leyline you will need an answer.

Good luck and enjoy the sad faces you create with turn one explorations.

[Moosedog]

@into_play

I havnt played the Stax match often, 2-3 times maybe in the last 2 years. I know ive never lost to it. Explosives is key in this match as well as academy ruins of course. always side in your crucible if your not running it MD game 2. thier biggest threats are elspeth/(jace2.0 if they splash Blue) and armageddon. Basic gameplan is to find EE and your colorless manaproducing lands to be able to play Explosives at 0 through a trin. if you stabalize against them hold a green source in your hand incase they get an armageddon off.

The aggro matchups are in our favor. The goblins matchup depends on your build, intuition is very effective vs them if you can cast it turn 2. Merfolk sould be an easy match although I lost to it a few weeks ago at starcity edison. :mad: Strat is pretty basic against these decks chasm zuran tabernacle and maze are the key cards. bridge is better vs folk then gobs but is effective against both with a manabond in play.

Factory is clunky, takes up space and provides little utility IMO. Maze is the better option for defensive purposes. we are not usually trying to kill our opponent early. we like to grind the game out and take control until our opponent cant do anything. then we decide its time to kill them.

Here is an example of why creeping tar pit is amazing:
Last week i was playing in a local tournament, 30-35 people. I got paired agains UB folk. games 2 he brought in extripate, i wasnt ready for it...thought they splashed B for perish and plague. regardless he turn 2 extripated my laom and i didnt bring in my crucible, so i no longer had any recursion capabilities of my lands. I had brought in 2 ghostly prison from my SB. eventually the board on my side was Lands 2 prison and 1 bridge. He had like 6 Merfolk in play just waiting to kill me. My plan of attack was to bait my opponent with both of my tabernacles to draw out some wasteland from his deck. It worked perfectly, i drew 1 and wested for the 2nd. I then had to pray that my tar pit would get there...It did!

I like the intuitions as well and have not cut them in my list. BUT the Enlightened version is def superior. It relies less on the Graveyard, and allows you to find hate SB cards quickly. Here is the list i use, it has been succesful for me recently, i tweak the sideboard often but as of today this is what the 75 looks like.

4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Intuition
4 Life From the Loam
4 Exploration
2 Manabond
4 Mox Diamond
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Smokestack
1 Zuran Orb
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Tropical Islands
1 Savanna
1 Bayou
1 Forest
5 Fetch
4 Wasteland
4 Port
4 Maze
1 Tabernacle
3 Tolaria West
2 Tranquill Thicket
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins

4 Dark Confidant
1 Tabernacle
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Rule of Law
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Null Rod
1 Cursed Totum
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Tormods Crypt
1 Arcane Laboratory/Oppression/Trinisphere

[Tim the Enchanter]

I played the original Gwr Lands, Intuition and E Tutor Lands and I like E Tutor the best.

Without Mishra's Factory, and the other manlands in the Gwr version, it has almost no clock at all but the unblockable ability of Creeping Tarpit really does win games. Not having to clear a whole board before you start damage or just hitting Jace before he Jaces on your face is a must.

I almost always felt that Intuition was at least a turn too slow because I almost always wanted a very specific card but had to also get Academy Ruins and then spend at least one turn to get that card out of my yard(DISCLAIMER: I'm probably not a good enough player to play Intuition correctly 80% of the time). I still play one Intuition over Entomb because it really is awesome, but 4 of with 4 Manabonds sucks. Often you'll get 2 Intuition and a Manabond in your opener and have to send it back. E Tutor, with Crucible, makes the deck not dependent on LftL and therefore much more resilient to non-recurring GY hate. Being able to tutor for Ensaring Bridge, or any other artifact/enchantment hate, and playing it the next turn, or the same turn with Thicket, is often game winning. It also allows you to dump your hand to Manabond on the second turninstead of 3/4.

For beating Aggro you want to get E Brdige down ASAP. Chasm Maze help you get by for a couple turns but like you said they Wasteland and Wasteland is bad, Goblins also plays port to stop your Mazes. Z Orb really helps you stabilize as well.

Stax: Obviously they are both prison decks but the decision trees in Lands are much more complex. I've never played Stax but i have played against it a fair amount and usually ended up winning because we use Smokestack better than Stax does. Like you said, Stax is obviously better against Combo but I think that's about it. Lands is slower, usually, but much more consistent and against the rest of the field. Knowing when to LftL and what to search for are the two most important things to know.

If you're going to a large event, like the SCG series, I would honestly recomend playing a different deck, that you're more comfortable with, right now due to the amount of Combo and GY hate that are/will show up to those events. I would definitely take this to smaller events, especially if the meta is undeveloped.

[lord09]

Any recommendations for a Port replacement for MTGO? I've tried Ghost Quarter and have been pretty disappointed unless I'm playing Dredge or C. Thresh.

[mchainmail]

Any recommendations for a Port replacement for MTGO? I've tried Ghost Quarter and have been pretty disappointed unless I'm playing Dredge or C. Thresh.

I'm playing Factory, it works okay. I could also see 2 Factory, 1 fetch 1 dual. The meta is pretty hostile right now, there's a lot of Dredge kicking around. There's not really a great replacement, so you have to just push through without it.

[rocketrae21]

I just started playing E Tutor in the deck as a 2 of along with 3 intuition. What artifacts are worthy main board? Currently I have Crucible, Zuran Orb, Smokestack, EE, Ensnaring Bridge, and Mindslaver.

[mchainmail]

Just as a teaser for everybody, I have a video set going up on Star City on Thursday of Lands on Magic Online. I'll post the link when it's online.

[mchainmail]

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21671_MTGO_Video_With_Lands_Legacy.html

Videos posted.

[lord09]

I enjoyed the video. I was on the fence about SDT, but it does seem to really help in longer games.

Keep it up, I'd love to see more.

[Serbitar]

Thanks for the videos. I really like seeing other people play Lands.

On a related note, I was going to bring up some questions I did not quite understand regarding the Enlightened Tutor build. Maybe someone can clear this up for me. As I did not play too many games with the E.Tutor version, my problems might be due to not having adjusted yet to the different play and especially mulligan conditions of the new list.
As far as I understood, the argument for E.Tutor is twofold:
1) You get less awkward Manabond + Intuition hands (or generally Manabond + Spells hands)
2) Intuition is very likely to be Dazed or Spell Pierced, whereas E.Tutor slips through.

Now 1) obviously is true. But what you are getting instead are Manabond + E.Tutor hands, Manabond + (Artifact) Spell hands, or E.Tutor + (Artifact) Spell hands - as 3 Intuitions and 2 Manabonds are replaced with E.Tutors and Artifacts. I think those hands are only silghtly less awkward unless playing against decks that are cold to Ensnaring Bridge. In such hands, it is a big problem that E.Tutor cannot find Loam. I am not even sure you can keep a hand with Enchantment and Tutor (even provided you have white mana to cast both). The risk of not finding Loam seems to be quite big.
Sure, you can tutor for Crucible or Top/Tutelage. But that brings me to 2) - the cards you are tutoring for (if you do not already have Loam) seem to be just as likely to get Dazed/Pierced as Intuition was in the first place. I guess this is less so, if you run Top and not Tutelage. But Top has to do quite a lot of work to make up for not being Loam. And even a resolved Crucible is not Loam in that it cannot find additional lands or recur Tolaria West etc (or interact with Manabond).

[ESG]

I watched the first video and will definitely be coming back later for the others when I have more time. I groaned when I saw the Llanowar Elves come down. Pretty much every build I've played against in my area has a maindeck answer for problem artifacts and/or enchantments, although Chasm is usually pretty solid. I was thinking you'd bring back Ensnaring Bridge with Academy Ruins and have Chasm as your secondary shield (something that has become second nature for me after having lost several games to opponents having an out and topdecking it in the next few turns), but the maindeck Magus was pretty evil. I've been testing Krödel Loam variations the past few nights and like Volrath Stronghold into Eternal Witness quite a bit. One of the things that's always bugged me about 43 Lands is that it doesn't have a way to get back Explorations or Manabond.

[GoldenCid]

Thanks for the videos. I really like seeing other people play Lands.

On a related note, I was going to bring up some questions I did not quite understand regarding the Enlightened Tutor build. Maybe someone can clear this up for me. As I did not play too many games with the E.Tutor version, my problems might be due to not having adjusted yet to the different play and especially mulligan conditions of the new list.
As far as I understood, the argument for E.Tutor is twofold:
1) You get less awkward Manabond + Intuition hands (or generally Manabond + Spells hands)
2) Intuition is very likely to be Dazed or Spell Pierced, whereas E.Tutor slips through.

Now 1) obviously is true. But what you are getting instead are Manabond + E.Tutor hands, Manabond + (Artifact) Spell hands, or E.Tutor + (Artifact) Spell hands - as 3 Intuitions and 2 Manabonds are replaced with E.Tutors and Artifacts. I think those hands are only silghtly less awkward unless playing against decks that are cold to Ensnaring Bridge. In such hands, it is a big problem that E.Tutor cannot find Loam. I am not even sure you can keep a hand with Enchantment and Tutor (even provided you have white mana to cast both). The risk of not finding Loam seems to be quite big.
Sure, you can tutor for Crucible or Top/Tutelage. But that brings me to 2) - the cards you are tutoring for (if you do not already have Loam) seem to be just as likely to get Dazed/Pierced as Intuition was in the first place. I guess this is less so, if you run Top and not Tutelage. But Top has to do quite a lot of work to make up for not being Loam. And even a resolved Crucible is not Loam in that it cannot find additional lands or recur Tolaria West etc (or interact with Manabond).

Incredible conclussions. This is what i tried to say since E. tutor verssion came out. Thx Serbitar for your words that reflect as well the mines!!
Off course fundamentation against our argument is pretty accepted!


I've been testing Krödel Loam variations the past few nights and like Volrath Stronghold into Eternal Witness quite a bit. One of the things that's always bugged me about 43 Lands is that it doesn't have a way to get back Explorations or Manabond.

How did this worked???

[ESG]

@GoldenCid: Ultimately, it's a mixed bag. You gain flexibility in recursion Game 1 at the cost of slightly more varied color requirements. Eternal Witness is also a great topdeck. Knight of the Reliquary can be game-winning if she isn't immediately answered. Having a Crop Rotation on a stick is really powerful, and the Knight is solid whether you're using her as a wall or as a midgame attacker. Then again, because Legacy is a creature-heavy format, Knight isn't necessarily that hard for an opponent to answer. She's great against the mono-blue build of Merfolk, and she's great against the Show and Tell matchup. I've tested a lot of different Lands decks, and I don't believe there is a universally superior version. I believe that you need to test several versions and find one that best exploits your meta. Then tweak and tune the deck until it's optimized. You need to know it inside and out, as there are a ton of pivot points, and you can't afford to lose too much time considering your plays, because if you happen to lose a game, you're likely looking at an unintentional draw.

[GoldenCid]

@GoldenCid: Ultimately, it's a mixed bag. You gain flexibility in recursion Game 1 at the cost of slightly more varied color requirements. Eternal Witness is also a great topdeck. Knight of the Reliquary can be game-winning if she isn't immediately answered. Having a Crop Rotation on a stick is really powerful, and the Knight is solid whether you're using her as a wall or as a midgame attacker. Then again, because Legacy is a creature-heavy format, Knight isn't necessarily that hard for an opponent to answer. She's great against the mono-blue build of Merfolk, and she's great against the Show and Tell matchup. I've tested a lot of different Lands decks, and I don't believe there is a universally superior version. I believe that you need to test several versions and find one that best exploits your meta. Then tweak and tune the deck until it's optimized. You need to know it inside and out, as there are a ton of pivot points, and you can't afford to lose too much time considering your plays, because if you happen to lose a game, you're likely looking at an unintentional draw.

could i see your list??

[ESG]

could i see your list??

It's not my list; I've just been testing some games with it (and I haven't gotten in all that many yet). This is Krödel's Loam 1.4 by Team Nienburg.

1 Eternal Witness
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Crop Rotation
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Exploration
3 Intuition
3 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Worm Harvest
1 Zuran Orb
1 Academy Ruins
1 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
4 Maze of Ith
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Rishadan Port
3 Savannah
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tropical Island
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Dispeller's Capsule
3 Hydroblast
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Teferi's Response
1 Tormod's Crypt

[Barbwire]

After testing most all the options that have been presented in this thread, I can only wonder if Lands is a playable archetype anymore. I really want to continue playing this deck, at least one more time at SCG charlotte, but I can't find a build that can compete quick enough with the way the current meta is going. Alex B. just took Boston with fish.....again....so it's safe to assume that fish will be sticking around, and it's not that bad of a match up, but NO Bant + variants have been hard to handle in my playtesting. It seems that once a Progen hits the field its game over. Any new idea's? Or should we be looking for a new archetype :(

[Fuzzy]

After testing most all the options that have been presented in this thread, I can only wonder if Lands is a playable archetype anymore. I really want to continue playing this deck, at least one more time at SCG charlotte, but I can't find a build that can compete quick enough with the way the current meta is going. Alex B. just took Boston with fish.....again....so it's safe to assume that fish will be sticking around, and it's not that bad of a match up, but NO Bant + variants have been hard to handle in my playtesting. It seems that once a Progen hits the field its game over. Any new idea's? Or should we be looking for a new archetype :(

Glacial Chasm?

[Barbwire]

Glacial Chasm?

That's the problem, Glacial Chasm can be blown up by a tutored wasteland from a KotR, and Ensnaring B can be taken out by a QPride Mage. Both of which are easy for the NO Bant deck to tutor for with GSZ or just have in hand due to the # in the deck. Every game I've played against it I've been unsuccessful in defending long term agaisnt a Progen on the field.

[fdiv_bug]

That's the problem, Glacial Chasm can be blown up by a tutored wasteland from a KotR, and Ensnaring B can be taken out by a QPride Mage. Both of which are easy for the NO Bant deck to tutor for with GSZ or just have in hand due to the # in the deck. Every game I've played against it I've been unsuccessful in defending long term agaisnt a Progen on the field.
Yeah, I've seen roughly the same thing happen to me. Green Sun's Zenith is... really good. Post-board you can bring in the Cursed Totem that can usually give them a few fits, but it can still end up being pretty rough as they can find a Krosan Grip before we can really start putting the thumbscrews on. I usually end up just trying to keep them off 3 mana as long as possible; they're pretty susceptible to Wasteland, Ghost Quarter, and Rishadan Port, at least.

[Fuzzy]

That's the problem, Glacial Chasm can be blown up by a tutored wasteland from a KotR, and Ensnaring B can be taken out by a QPride Mage. Both of which are easy for the NO Bant deck to tutor for with GSZ or just have in hand due to the # in the deck. Every game I've played against it I've been unsuccessful in defending long term agaisnt a Progen on the field.

NO Bant with Wasteland? Really?

[fdiv_bug]

NO Bant with Wasteland? Really?

I've seen them as one- or two-of's in lists running Knight of the Reliquary. Doesn't destabilize the manabase too terribly, and it can be tutored up as needed to solve problems.

[Fuzzy]

I've seen them as one- or two-of's in lists running Knight of the Reliquary. Doesn't destabilize the manabase too terribly, and it can be tutored up as needed to solve problems.

Fine, but you can always recur it later. You only lose when they had NO + 2 Wastes, no?

[fdiv_bug]

Fine, but you can always recur it later. You only lose when they had NO + 2 Wastes, no?

Pretty much, yes. They Naturally Order into Progenitus, pass turn. I drop a Glacial Chasm, pass turn. They waste it, swing for 10. I recur it. They waste it again. I sob uncontrollably and flip a table while shouting about how no one understands me and then running out of the room. At least, I think that's how it went...

Admittedly the frequency of this happening is skewed by my local meta, where damn near every single deck runs at least 2 Wasteland.

[Fuzzy]

Pretty much, yes. They Naturally Order into Progenitus, pass turn. I drop a Glacial Chasm, pass turn. They waste it, swing for 10. I recur it. They waste it again. I sob uncontrollably and flip a table while shouting about how no one understands me and then running out of the room. At least, I think that's how it went...

Admittedly the frequency of this happening is skewed by my local meta, where damn near every single deck runs at least 2 Wasteland.

Fine, drop Zuran Orb and survive one more turn. (And hope no one plays the 3rd Waste)

[Barbwire]

Fine, drop Zuran Orb and survive one more turn. (And hope no one plays the 3rd Waste)

Every situation has answers....the fact I'm trying to get advice on is our consistantcy to land them versus NOBants consistantcy to destroy them. That might work.....but odds of having it when you need it are slim and they're pretty consistant to drop that pro everything SOB T3-T4 since we have no way of countering. I'm seeing a Dim tunnel for Lands :(

[ESG]

After testing most all the options that have been presented in this thread, I can only wonder if Lands is a playable archetype anymore. I really want to continue playing this deck, at least one more time at SCG charlotte, but I can't find a build that can compete quick enough with the way the current meta is going. (

Lands and its cousins can be built to beat pretty much any deck; however, the true challenge is finding the build that has the best shot at a given tournament. If you run a version with Burning Wish, that can provide more answers to Progenitus. Meekstone is decent, too, forcing them to be able to answer it and bridge. Pithing Needle on Qasali Pridemage or Wasteland buys you time. Or Cursed Totem, as fdiv_bug mentioned. If it's a situation where you've stopped Progenitus but are likely to see your opponent break down the door before you've set up Creeping Tar Pit, Worm Harvest might provide a faster kill. Extract could be a hot, proactive choice for that matchup. Any Circle of Protection will stop Progenitus (I favor Red, since that also shuts down Price of Progress.)

[TheKingslayer]

I run a a more Eternal Gardenesque build, but I'm taking notes off of this thread as well.

...Gaddock Teeg?

Of course, he has to be dropped before Natural Order, but he also stops Tendrils...

[kjeldoran]

there is a new good card in the new set!! http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=117417&d=1303185738
try it vs progenitus!! :D what do u think about it??

[Davetradint]

there is a new good card in the new set!! http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=117417&d=1303185738
try it vs progenitus!! :D what do u think about it??

http://magiccards.info/sh/en/127.html

[Tim the Enchanter]

I run a a more Eternal Gardenesque build, but I'm taking notes off of this thread as well.

...Gaddock Teeg?

Of course, he has to be dropped before Natural Order, but he also stops Tendrils...

I'm not familiar with Eternal Garden but I do have some thoughts on Teeg. He is good against Tendrils builds, not so much against High Tide. The problem is that he shuts off EE recursion which is game breaking against just about every deck that isn't Tendrils. I think I'd usually rather recur EE or play Smokestack than stop most things at 4. SB space is already tight and unless you have some way to get him out of your yard, which is likely going to be too late anyway, he'll probably get dredged and be of no use anyway.

[iostream]

http://magiccards.info/sh/en/127.html

I think you should not be so dismissive. Unlike Ensnaring Bridge, which Bant can remove using Krosan Grip or Qasali Pridemage, Phyrexian Metamorph is removal because of the legend rule, and it's just as tutorable and recurrable in this deck.

On an unrelated note, we should think more carefully about New Phyrexia cards. For one, I think Surgical Extraction is better than Extirpate in the board, especially in the Enlightened Tutor version of this deck, where mana is not plentiful and we're stretched over four colors post board. Extirpate is generally not used against decks which have access to countermagic. It shines against Storm and decks that run Wasteland, and for these decks, the assurance that one can always cast Surgical Extraction no matter what may be worth two life.

I think that, despite the hype, this deck wants no part of Mental Misstep.

[krogen]

Can lands be played without Tabernacle? I might sound a little bit cheap but i feel that they are not worth their massive pricetag.....


Also i would like to know how competative lands are in the current metagame and how hard is the deck really to play?

[GoldenCid]

Also i would like to know how competative lands are in the current metagame and how hard is the deck really to play?

f*cking mental misstep will down this deck....

[Wanderlust]

f*cking mental misstep will down this deck....

Yeah I'm also worried about Mental Misstep. For the deck to continue to be viable, it has to be able to function knowing it will be significantly less common to resolve Exploration/Manabond. How do we adapt?

[mchainmail]

Yeah I'm also worried about Mental Misstep. For the deck to continue to be viable, it has to be able to function knowing it will be significantly less common to resolve Exploration/Manabond. How do we adapt?

Wait for other people to create a meta and then try to adapt to it?

[rocketrae21]

So after seeing the amazing Ken Adams play battle of wits today in Charlotte I have been brewing a battle of wits Lands deck. Here is my list. Its currently 239 card. I honestly don't know what I could play in the sideboard for Living Wish, but probably things like Primeval Titan, Llawan, Viridian Shaman and etc.


4 Bayou
6 Forest (3)
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
4 Nomad Stadium
1 Karakas
2 Riftstone Portal
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Glacial Chasm
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Tolaria West
4 Maze of Ith
4 Tranquil Thicket
4 Tropical Island
3 Ghost Quarter
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Dryad Arbor
4 Halimar Depths
3 Forgotten Cave
3 Lonely Sandbar
2 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Academy Ruins
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Barbarian Ring
4 Tectonic Edge
2 Celestial Colonnade
4 Cabal Pit
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Bojuka Bog
4 Horizon Canopy

// Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
2 Eternal Witness
3 Terravore
3 Knight of the Reliquary


// Spells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Cursed Totem
2 Meekstone
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mindslaver
4 Living Wish
4 Zuran Orb
4 Battle of Wits
4 Life from the Loam
4 Exploration
4 Manabond
4 Intuition
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Explore
2 Moat
2 Humility
4 Regrowth
4 Summer Bloom
3 Seismic Assault
4 Mental Note
4 Mox Diamond
2 Chalice of the Void
4 Entomb
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Smokestack
4 Crop Rotation
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Worm Harvest

[TheKingslayer]

It's so strange to witness the convergent evolution that has occurred between this deck and eternal garden builds. Has anyone ever attempted a more "stompyesque" build of the lands variants? (This is in reference to chalice of the void and trinisphere.) It seems it would serve as a means to set the pace of the game on our clock, all the while punishing low mana curves while rendering MM nearly useless. Of course, we would be forced to sacrifice some of the most powerful pieces in our board- crop rotation, enlightened tutor, exploration, manabond. I believe a build of this sort would function well to reduce anxieties in a meta full of MM. Intuition fits the curve well, and crop rotation could be replaced with knight of the reliquary. While not very synergistic with tabernacle, Azusa, lost but seeking lies outside of the 1mc range. I also understand that exploration serves a powerful role in leading tempo via land placement...


Is anyone tempted to pick this up and run with it?

[ESG]

It's so strange to witness the convergent evolution that has occurred between this deck and eternal garden builds. Has anyone ever attempted a more "stompyesque" build of the lands variants? (This is in reference to chalice of the void and trinisphere.) It seems it would serve as a means to set the pace of the game on our clock, all the while punishing low mana curves while rendering MM nearly useless. Of course, we would be forced to sacrifice some of the most powerful pieces in our board- crop rotation, enlightened tutor, exploration, manabond.

I have tried that in the past, yes. I wouldn't recommend it unless you have tons of storm combo in your meta. If Mental Misstep ends up slowing the format down, Knight of the Reliquary might find a home in this deck or a cousin of it. I really have to say, though, that just because Mental Misstep will soon exist does not mean that we need to ditch all our 1cc spells. Also, if you have to choose between Chalice and Exploration, it's Exploration every time.

[TheKingslayer]

I tried it and it was awful.

I just suggest trying to power through MM and use tutors to advantage. Can lands get no love?

[rocketrae21]

Can lands get no love?

Lands doesn't get no love because its a complicated and expensive deck and players don't want to play it. I personally love playing it, but its not strong in the meta right now (at least mine). Even with Mental Misstep I will be playing Lands in Providence and keeping my 1cc count the same.
I have had countless matches where the opponent won't counter a turn 1 exploration because they "aren't worried about it." Plus the deck runs enough tutors and 1cc spells to get through 4 mental missteps.

[Tim the Enchanter]

I have had countless matches where the opponent won't counter a turn 1 exploration because they "aren't worried about it." Plus the deck runs enough tutors and 1cc spells to get through 4 mental missteps.

Really? I've never had that luxury. I have had my opponent pitch Big Jace to Force Exploration before.

[mchainmail]

Lands doesn't get no love because its a complicated and expensive deck and players don't want to play it. I personally love playing it, but its not strong in the meta right now (at least mine). Even with Mental Misstep I will be playing Lands in Providence and keeping my 1cc count the same.
I have had countless matches where the opponent won't counter a turn 1 exploration because they "aren't worried about it." Plus the deck runs enough tutors and 1cc spells to get through 4 mental missteps.

I actually think that's what a decent amount of decks *should* be letting Exploration resolve, and just forcing either a timely Life from the Loam or an E-tutor / tutored up spell.

[rocketrae21]

I actually think that's what a decent amount of decks *should* be letting Exploration resolve, and just forcing either a timely Life from the Loam or an E-tutor / tutored up spell.

Oh I completely agree with you. The thing is Mental Misstep will obviously shut down our one drops, but the thing is a good player will wait for the more important one drop, such as E Tutor. Also I feel Mental Misstep is very hyped up right now and for a while it will be played a lot, but then people will adapt or get sick of the card and its "dominance" will decrease.

[Fuzzy]

Right now I think Lands is well positioned BECAUSE Misstep, not the inverse.

People will play less one-drops, so the format will become even slower. When playing a deck with Wastelands and Rishadan Ports and not really worried about casting some red dudes, it looks perfect, since in a long-game Lands ends with a huge advantage over the field.

And, with the Misstep Menace, combo becomes a worst choice because the entire format has now some way to defeat it. If everyone really keep playing 4 Missteps, i wouldn't sleeve a TES to play.

[Tammit67]

And, with the Misstep Menace, combo becomes a worst choice because the entire format has now some way to defeat it. If everyone really keep playing 4 Missteps, i wouldn't sleeve a TES to play.

Well, why not? A deck like Team America will certainly be more menacing with mistep, but decks without other viable ways of interacting will face the same problems as decks with only force as a meaningful barrier: Chant, duress, thoughtseize. I don't think mistep will stop combo, but you might be right that fewer people will play combo instead of learning how to play around it.

As for lands... I predict Lands remaining were it is in the meta. Misstep lets people counter tutor or exploration or what have you. Certainly the merfolk matchup will become more even if they can make it harder to hit that special artifact in time. But a deck like CB top? You rarely have to rely exclusvely on E tutor to find EE, and honestly if they don't have CB @2, the incremental advantage of lands versus these slower decks is enough if Jace can be kept in check.

[rocketrae21]

Well do you all think Lands wants to run Mental Misstep now as well? I wasn't thinking as a main board slot, but I'm really considering running 3 in the side for Providence.

[ESG]

Well do you all think Lands wants to run Mental Misstep now as well? I wasn't thinking as a main board slot, but I'm really considering running 3 in the side for Providence.

No. Why waste slots like that? Do you have any way to tutor for them? If not, are you going to mull to them? Think this through.

[rocketrae21]

No. Why waste slots like that? Do you have any way to tutor for them? If not, are you going to mull to them? Think this through.

Yes but most boards also play Krosan Grips and Confidants without having a way to reoccur them from a dredge. And before you say people run Volrath's Stronghold, not everyone does in the main because if you dredge it your opponent knows you must play creatures and will leave in Swords.

[kjeldoran]

now with MM control and agro-control destroy this enlightendland.deck, combo idem.. so what do u think about a stompy version with sphere of resistance, city of traitors or ancient tomb main deck and the retun of intuition?? any suggestion about list?

[mchainmail]

now with MM control and agro-control destroy this enlightendland.deck, combo idem.. so what do u think about a stompy version with sphere of resistance, city of traitors or ancient tomb main deck and the retun of intuition?? any suggestion about list?

Has anyone *actually* tested against MM?

I really, really hate conjecture on a future format unless someone has gotten in enough games.

*if* people are cutting Spell Pierce, then Intuition is a lot better.

[dahcmai]

I did a little testing since I was thinking Merfolk would rise again with misstep making TES even more of a challenge to play and Merfolk gains a ton because of it. Merfolk was about the only deck I think besides Team America that will end up playing it as a staple. I think the rest of the decks will fall off a bit once they see it's not an "omg, I win" card.

Anyway, It sucks getting Manabond countered and I think I might just add a Burgeoning to counteract that a bit. Sure, it's one more 1cc spell, but that's ok when you are increasing the redundancy. Kind of like going overboard on non-basics when people start playing wastelands heavy. It sucks, but it's far from end of the world.

Team America is a serious bitch all of a sudden though. Them getting to counter your Exploration, Manabond, etc is quite annoying when it doesn't down them a card. Maze is still what you end up needing multiples so you can drag your tail across and get out of the onslaught, but it's worse now. Merfolk still falls over to Tabernacle which is sure nice. If you have Crop Rotation in your lists, ditch it now. Anyone with half a brain should be killing a Crop Rotation if they know you're just going to dump a Tabernacle on them and they fall over and half die to it and it's not worth Sinkholing yourself for fun.

I really don't expect many other decks to be packing MM once the hype dies a little. Folk and Team America are going to enjoy the ride for a bit though so you might as well expect it out of those two. I'm surely not going to put MM in lands by the way. Too many spells a bad lands deck you make.

[mchainmail]

I did a little testing since I was thinking Merfolk would rise again with misstep making TES even more of a challenge to play and Merfolk gains a ton because of it. Merfolk was about the only deck I think besides Team America that will end up playing it as a staple. I think the rest of the decks will fall off a bit once they see it's not an "omg, I win" card.

Anyway, It sucks getting Manabond countered and I think I might just add a Burgeoning to counteract that a bit. Sure, it's one more 1cc spell, but that's ok when you are increasing the redundancy. Kind of like going overboard on non-basics when people start playing wastelands heavy. It sucks, but it's far from end of the world.

Team America is a serious bitch all of a sudden though. Them getting to counter your Exploration, Manabond, etc is quite annoying when it doesn't down them a card. Maze is still what you end up needing multiples so you can drag your tail across and get out of the onslaught, but it's worse now. Merfolk still falls over to Tabernacle which is sure nice. If you have Crop Rotation in your lists, ditch it now. Anyone with half a brain should be killing a Crop Rotation if they know you're just going to dump a Tabernacle on them and they fall over and half die to it and it's not worth Sinkholing yourself for fun.

I really don't expect many other decks to be packing MM once the hype dies a little. Folk and Team America are going to enjoy the ride for a bit though so you might as well expect it out of those two. I'm surely not going to put MM in lands by the way. Too many spells a bad lands deck you make.

We also have Horn of Greed as an option, or doing something weird and running stompy lands, Chalice of the Void and Oracle of Mul Daya...

[Barbwire]

Right now I think Lands is well positioned BECAUSE Misstep, not the inverse.

People will play less one-drops, so the format will become even slower. When playing a deck with Wastelands and Rishadan Ports and not really worried about casting some red dudes, it looks perfect, since in a long-game Lands ends with a huge advantage over the field.

And, with the Misstep Menace, combo becomes a worst choice because the entire format has now some way to defeat it. If everyone really keep playing 4 Missteps, i wouldn't sleeve a TES to play.

I think this statement may end up being true, but like any other "eye candy" card everybody will have some sitting somehwere, either main or board. After the initial hubbub and mass hysteria over it I think it will be a stronger format for Lands for the reasons you've given. But only after everybody plays there fill of MH.Probably be at least another 2-3 months.

For now I've gone back to TezzTopCB. Hopefully this phase will end quickly...

[GoldenCid]

Has anyone *actually* tested against MM?

I really, really hate conjecture on a future format unless someone has gotten in enough games.

*if* people are cutting Spell Pierce, then Intuition is a lot better.

I already tested agiainst mental misstep. Running explo + manabond seems like we'll be destroyed by MM but i was that bad. To face this card i paradojically wanted to increase the cmc1 spell count but then i tried Eternal witness for recursion and it was the way. That and the power of keeping loam and intuition to control the table. I'm glad at this point. If you like i post my list for discussion:

/ Lands
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
1 [JU] Riftstone Portal
1 [SOM] Forest (1)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [DK] Maze of Ith
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [FUT] Tolaria West
3 [R] Tropical Island
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
1 [R] Bayou
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures
1 [FD] Eternal Witness

// Spells
1 [IA] Zuran Orb
4 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [TE] Intuition
4 [US] Exploration
4 [EX] Manabond
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [MR] Mindslaver
1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
3 [SH] Mox Diamond

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 [MI] Cursed Totem

Comments are welcomed!

[Sloshthedark]

what about SB: Beast Within? destroys whatever is necessary and that 3/3 is mostly harmless...

[GoldenCid]

what about SB: Beast Within? destroys whatever is necessary and that 3/3 is mostly harmless...

Replacing grip?

[Barbwire]

The Point of Kgrip is to have a defense against Counterbalance, if you choose Beast Within instead you'll find a regular counterspell will stop you......

[mchainmail]

The Point of Kgrip is to have a defense against Counterbalance, if you choose Beast Within instead you'll find a regular counterspell will stop you......

No, the point of K-grip is to destroy Pithing Needle on Academy Ruins (and sometimes Leyline of the Void)

If they don't have Needle, you can just lock most CB players out fairly easily.

[Sloshthedark]

I tested it just lightly than played 1 tournament, my list is very different from most of you, but I liked it, its a universal solution for any permanent, and has synergy with mana the denial plan - I play 4 instead of grips and think its a good card to consider

[mchainmail]

I tested it just lightly than played 1 tournament, my list is very different from most of you, but I liked it, its a universal solution for any permanent, and has synergy with mana the denial plan - I play 4 instead of grips and think its a good card to consider

Can you post your list?

[Julian23]

No, the point of K-grip is to destroy Pithing Needle on Academy Ruins (and sometimes Leyline of the Void)

If they don't have Needle, you can just lock most CB players out fairly easily.

Further explanation: Once you get Engineered Explosives online, you can just bypass CB by announcing for a large number but only paying 2 different kinds of mana.

[nayon]

The deck came 9th in the SCG Open! http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=38399

I have no idea how though.

[iostream]

The deck came 9th in the SCG Open! http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=38399

I have no idea how though.
Well, the maindeck seems pretty standard for an Intuition-based list, except for the Riftstone Portal and Urborg. What's interesting is his sideboard: zero grips, zero extirpates, and 3 (!) Null Rod. Why on earth does he want Null Rod so badly? There's also Raven's Crime and Worm Harvest. Why? I don't know what matchups you'd want either of those cards in.

[Julian23]

Really? Trying searching this thread for "Null Rod" and you will realize that it is just another way to combat most Storm Combo (shuts down Petal and LED) while also hitting decks like Painter and Affinity.

[Sloshthedark]

Can you post your list?

maybe "very" is not the right word but different for sure

I have the +/- same list last since november it was designed to kill vengevines and have a at least a small chance against ANT/Belcher G1 // usual MD differences are 4th mox/4thIntuition/land/Bridge, smokestack/slaver, Nantuko Monastery/Ghost quarter (originally Nantuko instead of Creeping Tar Pit and 2nd Factory)

usually it has Trinisphere and Cursed Totem SB, historically I have experimented with nearly everything, starting Kotr, E-tutor, ending Painter/grindstone, and MD - UG, UGb, UGw UGbw and rainbow versions, on Friday it was like:

// Lands
1 [R] Bayou
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [JU] Riftstone Portal
2 [DIS] Ghost Quarter
1 [OD] Barbarian Ring
2 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
1 [WWK] Creeping Tar Pit
1 [U] Taiga
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [UG] Forest
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [U] Tropical Island
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 [FUT] Tolaria West
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [DK] Maze of Ith
1 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm

// Spells
1 [IA] Zuran Orb
1 [MR] Mindslaver
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [TE] Intuition
4 [US] Exploration
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
2 [US] Gamble
4 [RAV] Life from the Loam
3 [EX] Manabond
3 [SH] Mox Diamond

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CHK] Meloku the Clouded Mirror
SB: 1 [FD] Eternal Witness
SB: 1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
SB: 1 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 [MR] Oblivion Stone
SB: 1 [US] Gamble
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [NPH] Beast Within

[Sloshthedark]

Null Rod - Storm, Affinity, Painter +GY hate
Raven crime - Storm, Control?
Worm harvest - maybe Smokestack with excessive number of counters? as an additional win condition it is a bit poor but why not

[iostream]

Really? Trying searching this thread for "Null Rod" and you will realize that it is just another way to combat most Storm Combo (shuts down Petal and LED) while also hitting decks like Painter and Affinity.
I know it is a storm hate card, but it shoots this deck in the foot. It turns off our own Moxes and much of the rest of our artifact suite, and it can be bounced just like any other permanent we could play against storm. Most other pieces of hate, like Chalice or Ethersworn Canonist, seem to be vastly superior choices.

[Guy I Don't Know]

There are affinity and metalworker decks too that null rod hits as well. I think that is why someone would play null rod, it is more versatile

[nayon]

I'm amazed at how this deck placed 9th in such a huge tournament and in a metagame where Misstep exists. Also graveyard hate, and Wasteland.

Can someone explain "the plan" to me in those situations?

I would also like to run Halimar Depths to be able to see what's coming off the top, so I can sometimes decide to draw instead of dredging Loam.

[plus_ten]

Null rod is amazing against storm, since a large amount of their mana come out of artifacts. Then, ports and wastelands can do their work against their remaining mana. It gives Lands a large time-window to push through for a win. This is especially true if Lands has the Factory suite. I have played SB Nulls before, and they really bring wonders.

I have considered Raven's crime for a long time without having any time to test it. It seems like an excellent pro-active answer to Combo (and Control, though our Control-MU is already well above par). Clearly, intuition into loam-crime-urborg is a great way to start EOT3 against a storm opponent.

@Sloshy: What is the vesuva doing there? Care to share this tech?

[mchainmail]

I'm amazed at how this deck placed 9th in such a huge tournament and in a metagame where Misstep exists. Also graveyard hate, and Wasteland.

Can someone explain "the plan" to me in those situations?

I would also like to run Halimar Depths to be able to see what's coming off the top, so I can sometimes decide to draw instead of dredging Loam.

There's this really cool card that lets you see the top 3 cards and rearrange them... and even draw one if you tap it and put it on top of your library. I forget what it's called though. I'll ask my Sensei tomorrow.

The *only* deck that plays MM that I care about is Merfolk. Every other deck that runs MM is too slow, that I want to keep a hand with Life from the Loam, regardless of everything else.




Null rod is amazing against storm, since a large amount of their mana come out of artifacts. Then, ports and wastelands can do their work against their remaining mana. It gives Lands a large time-window to push through for a win. This is especially true if Lands has the Factory suite. I have played SB Nulls before, and they really bring wonders.

I have considered Raven's crime for a long time without having any time to test it. It seems like an excellent pro-active answer to Combo (and Control, though our Control-MU is already well above par). Clearly, intuition into loam-crime-urborg is a great way to start EOT3 against a storm opponent.

@Sloshy: What is the vesuva doing there? Care to share this tech?

Null Rod is really, really, really marginal against UB ANT, but far better against 5c variants. UB can easily beat it with a single Cabal Ritual, and I've been cut off of Zuran Orb because of my own Null Rod before.

Raven's Crime is cute, I've never really liked the card, but it could see play.

Vesuva's best use is double-Glacial-Chasm-locking an opponent, but this is rather resource intensive.

[nayon]

Neither of the lists mentioned in this page play Top, and Depths can be tutored via Tolaria and can be loamed back?




The *only* deck that plays MM that I care about is Merfolk. Every other deck that runs MM is too slow, that I want to keep a hand with Life from the Loam, regardless of everything else.




There's this reanimator rage in my metagame where they turn 2 reanimate a jin-gitaxias and turn 3 terastodon, and it plays MM and FoW. Feels like that's pretty bad for this deck, and so is ANT/TES/whatever?

[ESG]

There's this reanimator rage in my metagame where they turn 2 reanimate a jin-gitaxias and turn 3 terastodon, and it plays MM and FoW. Feels like that's pretty bad for this deck, and so is ANT/TES/whatever?

In that case, you either should play a different deck or you should adapt your board to beat it. Extirpate is quite the card in this situation, although you'd have to commit your manabase to black. You might also win the odd game just through upkeep Porting them to keep them off their sorceries. In general, I find Lands to be a strong favorite in the Reanimator matchup, although that was before Jin-Gitaxias was printed. That guy needs to not hit the table.

[Sloshthedark]

@Sloshy: What is the vesuva doing there? Care to share this tech?

Vesuva is fantastic (with Crop rotation especially), usually its a double chasm lock against non-wasteland decks, 5th maze, 2nd Bojuka, legendary lands killer and used to be fast finisher copying Nantuko Monastery... and sometimes having Mutavault is not bad ; )

[Fuzzy]

In that case, you either should play a different deck or you should adapt your board to beat it. Extirpate is quite the card in this situation, although you'd have to commit your manabase to black.

So, Surgical Extraction?

[Sloshthedark]

So, Surgical Extraction?

not a good idea considering blue decks and MM...

[Fuzzy]

This weekend I playtested the following list versus Missteped Merfolks:

4 Exploration
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Manabond
2 Intuition
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Enginereed Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mindslaver
1 Zuran Orb

4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter

4 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

4 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tolaria West

3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills

2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas

I lose like 2-X, and Merfolk is the most matchup here in my meta. Anyone has any solution? Please? =/

[Julian23]

It's a place I actually don't really wanna go back to, but against Merfolk Mishra's Factory actually helps quite a bit.

[mchainmail]

It's a place I actually don't really wanna go back to, but against Merfolk Mishra's Factory actually helps quite a bit.

Yeah, I tested 3 Factories in my list recently, it worked out alright. Also, I added a 2nd Top over the 2nd Manabond, because being able to find what you need is really, really good.

I want to put the 4th Tolaria West in, as an additional blue source and a way to find Tabernacle or EE for Merfolk.

[Serbitar]

I also concur with Factory being awesome against Merfolk (if you can manage not to play Islands). I also like Intuition quite abit, because finding Tabernacle (and Loam) is so important. I have gone back to the old 4 Intuition, 3-4 Factory, no white list.

[Tash]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20977-REPORT-Just-missed-it!-9th-at-SCG-Louisville-Legacy-Open&p=553291#post553291

Here's my report for 9th place at the SCG Louisville Open with 43lands.

[iostream]

Thanks for the report. I'm really surprised Dark Confidant was not helpful to you! In my experience, it's always been a pretty excellent response to the grave hate that inevitably gets sided in game 2/3.

[mchainmail]

I also concur with Factory being awesome against Merfolk (if you can manage not to play Islands). I also like Intuition quite abit, because finding Tabernacle (and Loam) is so important. I have gone back to the old 4 Intuition, 3-4 Factory, no white list.

I still like Enlightened Tutor, and am surprised people like Intuition against Merfolk; trying to resolve 2, 3-mana spells without dying seems miserable right now, especially when one may need to use Academy Ruins post-Intuition.

My goal for this weekend is to win game 1 by milling someone. (At GP Providence)

[Tammit67]

I still like Enlightened Tutor, and am surprised people like Intuition against Merfolk; trying to resolve 2, 3-mana spells without dying seems miserable right now, especially when one may need to use Academy Ruins post-Intuition.

My goal for this weekend is to win game 1 by milling someone. (At GP Providence)

With merfolk running MMS instead of Spell pierce, It is easier to resolve intuition?

[iostream]

With merfolk running MMS instead of Spell pierce, It is easier to resolve intuition?
It's also worth noting that you have to resolve 2 and 3 cc spells with Enlightened Tutor anyway, since the relevant lock pieces there include Null Rod and Ensnaring Bridge.

[Tammit67]

It's also worth noting that you have to resolve 2 and 3 cc spells with Enlightened Tutor anyway, since the relevant lock pieces there include Null Rod and Ensnaring Bridge.

I don't find null rod to be a lock piece in the merfolk matchup. I'd board it in, but once bridge comes down, I could care less. Do you feel the same way?

[iostream]

I don't find null rod to be a lock piece in the merfolk matchup. I'd board it in, but once bridge comes down, I could care less. Do you feel the same way?
Yes, that's exactly how I see it as well. Calling it a "lock piece" was bad wording. It's definitely a relevant card, though.

[Tammit67]

Mchainmail ends up taking down a grinder last night, I think he'll be hard pressed not to make day 2.

Update: 6-0 with 3 byes, beating UR burn, Storm combo, and Bant

[fdiv_bug]

Mchainmail ends up taking down a grinder last night, I think he'll be hard pressed not to make day 2.

Update: 6-0 with 3 byes, beating UR burn, Storm combo, and Bant

Go, go, go! :smile:

[nayon]

Mchainmail ends up taking down a grinder last night, I think he'll be hard pressed not to make day 2.

Update: 6-0 with 3 byes, beating UR burn, Storm combo, and Bant

Please post a list and a report when you're done, and do not lose!

[Tammit67]

He's on to day 2. 7-2 record losing to junk and that scoop

[mchainmail]

He's on to day 2. 7-2 record losing to junk and that scoop

Thanks Matt. List is on the mothership. (From the grinder) basically, 3 factories back in. I don't have any thickets, which.I.think is a mistake.

[plus_ten]

Thanks Matt. List is on the mothership. (From the grinder) basically, 3 factories back in. I don't have any thickets, which.I.think is a mistake.

Good luck for Day 2, mate.

Agreed on the thickets, 1 or 2 would be ideal. However, you do have the 2x Top for an emergency dredge.

[The_Red_Panda]

Thanks Matt. List is on the mothership. (From the grinder) basically, 3 factories back in. I don't have any thickets, which.I.think is a mistake.

You don't have a tabernacle in your list. Money issues, or did you drop it because it wasn't doing enough for you? It seems mediocre against Team America, which has been huge lately, so I could totally understand dropping it for this tourney, but I'm just curious.

[Tammit67]

He owns 2 tabernacle, so I don't think it was a money issue. Are you really not running Tabernacle, Mike?

[mchainmail]

He owns 2 tabernacle, so I don't think it was a money issue. Are you really not running Tabernacle, Mike?

I own 2, play 1. The list there may only be 59 cards. Also, I really wanted a Scrubland in one of my post board games.

[Moosedog]

Congrats Mike! good luck today as well.

[Fuzzy]

@mchainmail: Mana Maze? For what?

[Tammit67]

He top 32'd, taking away $400.

Mana maze was there originally to deal with High tide combo, he was probably too lazy to replace it.

[Julian23]

Good job, Mike. I feel so proud someone is doing well with my beloved Lands! :-)

[mchainmail]

He top 32'd, taking away $400.

Mana maze was there originally to deal with High tide combo, he was probably too lazy to replace it.

Elf combo too. It wasn't foil though, I shouldn't have played it.

Losses to Burn and Junk, not resolving a Loan in either game.

Drew with Zoo (scoop) and Dredge. Both games I had won on board.

[Tammit67]

I still don't understand why you drew, seeing how everything carried over. Only one other person had close to your amount of points and in the draw bracket.
Congrats!!!

[sdematt]

Even though I said good job at the event, good job on crushing noobs with Lands :)

-Matt

[iostream]

Congratulations on top 32!


Losses to Burn and Junk, not resolving a Loan in either game.
Fear of this situation is one reason why I ran a mixture of Intuition and E Tutor at the GP. I scrubbed out, however, so maybe it wasn't the best idea ever. :/

[soltakar]

Thanks Matt. List is on the mothership. (From the grinder) basically, 3 factories back in. I don't have any thickets, which.I.think is a mistake.

I know you usually don't like factories, what made you play them now? What would you replace for thickets?

Any other changes that you would have made looking back at the GP?

[jjflipped]

@mchainmail Can you post the list here, as the list on the mother ship has no tabernacle and is 60 cards.

[mchainmail]

1 Academy Ruins
1 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
4 Maze of Ith
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Rishadan Port
2 Savannah
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Tolaria West
3 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
34 lands


1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Entomb
4 Exploration
4 Life from the Loam
1 Manabond
1 Meekstone
4 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Smokestack
1 Zuran Orb

-------------


-1 Rishadan Port, +1 Tabernacle.

Matt: Hitting an early draw dramatically increased the odds of playing other slow players / matchups, which I felt was bad for me.

Soltakar: Fear of Merfolk, Jace, and Thrun. They're not too bad right now, as you get rare opportunities to make them relevant.

[Koopa]

How many Mental Missteps did you have to play against at the GP. I watched your game vs burn. Rough. Had you seen Loam you would have easily taken that game.

[mchainmail]

How many Mental Missteps did you have to play against at the GP. I watched your game vs burn. Rough. Had you seen Loam you would have easily taken that game.

I was only missteped in round 15, where my opponent went plains, mutavault, stoneforge. (I went E-Tutor, Manabond.)

All in all, it was a very strange tournament.

[lord09]

Any chance of a tournament report?

[Koopa]

So, do you feel this deck gets hurt enough by Misstep. Not resolving a acceleration spell seems like we are going to have a hard time winning. Or do you feel that we can still play a game without it?

[nayon]

So, do you feel this deck gets hurt enough by Misstep. Not resolving a acceleration spell seems like we are going to have a hard time winning. Or do you feel that we can still play a game without it?

That's the critical question imo.

[Fuzzy]

Today I played Lands in a 63 players champs, but ended really poorly: 2-3-1. I was something like 30+ hours without sleep, and that lead me with several mistakes along the day.

My list was that: (Yes, 61 cards and I have no clue what i should cut)

4 Exploration
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
3 E. Tutor
3 Manabond
1 Intuition
1 CoW
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 E.E.
1 Mindslaver
1 Zuran Orb

4 Port
4 Waste
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Tabernacle
3 Tolaria West
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Tropical
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
4 Green Fetchs
1 Forest
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins

SB:
3 Bob
3 Chalice
2 Extirpate
1 Dark Tutelage
1 Canonist
1 Mana Maze
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle (mainly for Jace)

The only relevant black cards was the Confidant effects. But I had an idea/question: What if we had KotR instead of Confidants, so we can cut all black and had a better manabase?

[iostream]

KotR and Confidant do completely different things. Confidant is there partially because it gives us an alternate engine when grave hate is up post-sideboard. KotR does not do this at all, as the deck typically does not have many forests and plains to spare.

[iostream]

New toy to play with in M12:

http://img.coolstuffinc.net/products/mtg%20art/magic%202012/m12224.jpg

Possibly a colorless Academy Ruins alternative.

[GoldenCid]

New toy to play with in M12:

http://img.coolstuffinc.net/products/mtg%20art/magic%202012/m12224.jpg

Possibly a colorless Academy Ruins alternative.

Can`t see the link :(

[NecroYawgmoth]

It read's:

Buried Ruin
Land - Uncommon
{T}: Add 1 to your mana pool.
2, {T}, Sacrifice Buried Ruin: Return target artifact card from your graveyard to your hand.


And, yes IMO it looks also better than Ruins. You can sac it for 2 [which is the same mana Ruins needs, in fact, its 2 colorless, so you don't need U], and you get the card in your hand, which means you don't need that Thicket, if you use it during your turn.

[LandMaster]

Reserved for huge post that I am making

[Antonius]

It read's:

Buried Ruin
Land - Uncommon
{T}: Add 1 to your mana pool.
2, {T}, Sacrifice Buried Ruin: Return target artifact card from your graveyard to your hand.


And, yes IMO it looks also better than Ruins. You can sac it for 2 [which is the same mana Ruins needs, in fact, its 2 colorless, so you don't need U], and you get the card in your hand, which means you don't need that Thicket, if you use it during your turn.

Why would you want to sacrifice a land when ruins can give you semi permanent access to EE without Loam?

Also, at this stage in the deck's development, running without Tolaria West is highly inadvisable. So even the colorless argument doesn't hold that great a merit.

[iostream]

Regarding the first point: You don't always need Loam, e.g. if you have access to Crucible. This is fair, though.

Regarding the second point: This is also probably true, but at least it opens up the space for us to try and consider replacements. This might be useful for the following reason: in E-Tutor lists, the necessity of Confidant in the sideboard forced the deck to run 4 colors, badly destabilizing the mana base post-board (I've personally fallen victim to color screw, but I might just be a bad pilot). Furthermore, such lists run blue only for Academy Ruins and Tolaria West, and they have less need for Tolaria West than the Intuition builds because you rely more on artifacts, not bullet lands, to create soft locks.

Furthermore, in exchange for Tolaria West, a better mana base might allow us to run things like Humility or Knight of the Reliquary, which undoubtedly address some deficiencies that may emerge from cutting blue.

[LandMaster]

Gamble much?

[iostream]

Gamble is unreliable, and red is almost totally barren of useful cards for control Loam decks. Wonderful for aggro Loam, but not this, especially since I'm trying to cut a 4th color for consistency reasons.

[Fuzzy]

I would cut black before cut blue. Dark Confidant is nuts, but both Tolaria West and Ruins are just better.

And while Confidant draws, Reliquary tutors, Every turn. And is a really good beater. AAAND has sinergy with 4 Mazes. I will test KotR this weekend.

[plus_ten]

Tiago's invitational card to be released in INN.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=335445

Denying Channel
Land
T: Add to {1} your mana pool.
2UU, Discard Denying Channel: Counter target spell.

Too high to utilise, but still a card for this deck than any other.

@Buried Ruin: I think this is playable, as it gets the EE back straight away.

EDIT: I am of the opinion that Buried Ruins should complement Academy, rather than a straight replacement.

[Serbitar]

@Denying Channel
That's not even the form, the card will have. They said, "it changed quite a bit (for the better)", which probably means it got worse ^^. But I guess this is just speculation for now.

I don't think Buried Ruin should replace Academy Ruins. I guess it's nice that you get to recur an artifact while loaming but this could be done with Academy Ruins, too - just required a Thicket. On the other hand, it costs a land drop to keep using it. You probably should be blue anyways.
There is, however, a not irrelevant play that cannot be done with Buried Ruins: to deck the opponent or prevent yourself from getting decked.

[kjeldoran]

what do u think about:
intuition + noxious revival? we can tutor anything...
Druidic Satchel in sideboard like second engine?
Visions of Beyond??

[rocketrae21]

what do u think about:
intuition + noxious revival? we can tutor anything...
Druidic Satchel in sideboard like second engine?
Visions of Beyond??

I'm okay with Noxious Revival in the deck but as currently my list doesn't run Intuition I don't know if its worth it for me that is. The other two cards just don't seem that good. The problem with any instant or sorcery in the deck is that if you don't have it in your opener you will most likely end up dredging it anyway with no way to return it. So a lot of time Visions doesn't really do anything for us.

[mchainmail]

what do u think about:
intuition + noxious revival? we can tutor anything...
Druidic Satchel in sideboard like second engine?
Visions of Beyond??

If you get 3 cards off Visions of Beyond, you're already winning.

[LowBeyonder]

The only M12 card that jumped out at me is Sundial of the Infinite. With Smokestack or against a deck that has no way to remove Glacial Chasm, it could just win the game, and it can fight some stuff like EOT Wasteland activations or Price of Progress.

[GoldenCid]

what do u think about:
intuition + noxious revival? we can tutor anything...
Druidic Satchel in sideboard like second engine?
Visions of Beyond??

The only think you really want to tutor is for loam, lands or artifacts. All of them tutoreable with intuition.

[Serbitar]

The only M12 card that jumped out at me is Sundial of the Infinite. With Smokestack or against a deck that has no way to remove Glacial Chasm, it could just win the game, and it can fight some stuff like EOT Wasteland activations or Price of Progress.

You already win against decks that have no way to remove Chasm and/or were you resolve Smokestack under no pressure...

[LowBeyonder]

You already win against decks that have no way to remove Chasm and/or were you resolve Smokestack under no pressure...
That's true.

There are probably some other tricks with it. Wastelanding fetches and dodging Clique come to mind, but they're pretty niche. I may test with it, though.

[mchainmail]

You already win against decks that have no way to remove Chasm and/or were you resolve Smokestack under no pressure...

Even in game 1, what decks can't deal with *any* part of that combo?

Maybe the various Natural Order decks in game 1, but in game 2, everyone will have K-grip or Grudge. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea. It just doesn't seem good enough sometimes.

[Koopa]

Don't even bother your time with Sundial, it is nothing but winmore.

[rocketrae21]

Its Lands viable to play right now? I want to run it at the next Jupiter Event, but I'm not sure if its worth it

[ESG]

Probably not. Given the predicted field, will you be able to consistently resolve Exploration or Manabond? What's your plan against Hive Mind? Do you have any game against Reanimator? Can you beat TES or ANT or High Tide or any other storm combo? How about Combo Elves or Painter? These, in my opinion, are the main questions to consider before rolling this deck into battle. If those problem decks are absent, or if you're able to adequately hate out the few that are present, then things get a lot easier.

I would play this deck if you expect lots of aggro and very little combo, and if people are running vulnerable manabases. Other than that, I'd keep it on the shelf. Lands has always been a niche deck, and the niche is smaller this year than it was last year.

[iamfrightenedtoo]

lands just took like 27 at the Pitt SCG open, out of about 190, went 6-2. its not a bad deck, just a little difficult to run and figure out.

[Davetradint]

I agree with ESG. This deck should be played when combo has a small presence OR you manage to have a perfect sideboard and are able to defeat combo decks.

If not, just play another deck. What we could discuss is a sideboard and maindeck cards that would help the deck in these matchups.

Has anyone tried Leyline of the Void against Reanimator? Along with Extirpate I think it's the best answer to that deck.

[rocketrae21]

Has anyone tried Leyline of the Void against Reanimator? Along with Extirpate I think it's the best answer to that deck.

I feel Leyline is just too much to have in your board. You normally want to have a good hand with Exploration/Manabond and a Loam and now if you are looking for a Leyline as well? Reanimator isn't a deck that just loses to Leyline, especially because they normally side in Show and Tell.

Also I really just want to get Lands back out just to try and stay fresh with the deck. I don't get enough chances to test and honestly no one ever wants to test against lands. I guess I'll just scout the field and if it looks lands angry, just play my bant list.

[Julian23]

The best answers to reanimator are actually Karakas and Glacial Chasm which deal with almost anything they can come up with. Maybe Terastodon will get there through Glacial Chasm but the chances of that happening are actually way too little to justify putting 4 Leylines in the board. And no: we don't need anything but a single Crypt/Bojuka Bog from the sb against Dredge (which is an awesome matchup already).

[Infinitium]

Reanimator used to play It that betrays specifically to combat Glacial locks back when either were considered relevant. Just saying.

[mchainmail]

The best answers to reanimator are actually Karakas and Glacial Chasm which deal with almost anything they can come up with. Maybe Terastodon will get there through Glacial Chasm but the chances of that happening are actually way too little to justify putting 4 Leylines in the board. And no: we don't need anything but a single Crypt/Bojuka Bog from the sb against Dredge (which is an awesome matchup already).


One of the big differences with Reanimator is now they get Jin Gitaxis, so at some point in the game they *will* reanimate a fatty, draw cards, reanimate a fatty, draw cards, reanimate a fatty, draw cards, reanimate a fatty, draw cards, reanimate a fatty, draw cards, and eventually win.


In the past, we used to be able to just use chasm or maze to stop Iona / Inkwell.

[metamet]

The Problem With Lands, or What’s Cooler Than Being Cool? (http://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/08/the-problem-with-lands-or-whats-cooler-than-being-cool/)

Jason Schousboe wrote an article that went out this morning discussing Lands in the current meta, and how playing for the "cool" factor may sometimes take away from the fun.

As Lands players, what're you thoughts on his observations in the meta? What of his list with Scapeshift and Valakut? I've seen the deck win on turn 4 when the combo goes off, but I can see how interrupting it in the current meta is fairly easy. Thoughts?

The Problem With Lands, or What’s Cooler Than Being Cool? (http://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/08/the-problem-with-lands-or-whats-cooler-than-being-cool/)

[ESG]

That list looks like it's trying to do everything at once. No wonder it did nothing well. Also, he talks of making several missplays, which I'm assuming were because he did little -- zero? -- testing with the deck. Ultimately, Lands is trying to play a fair game, and Legacy has drifted further into the unfair, so unless you know what the meta is going to be and know that your bad matchups are few, then you're likely setting yourself up for disappointment. He doesn't give any indication that he knew what the meta was going to be or had a plan to attack it, so he just ran his ship into the rocks. I didn't know a player could receive more than one bye based on losses over the course of a tournament (and this one, if his report is correct, was only six rounds long).

Back when Lands was better positioned, I tested Scapeshift and found it lacking unless the entire plan was built around Valakut. The way he's trying to squeeze it in here is beyond greedy.

[rocketrae21]

I agree. The combo is just too cute for the deck. Yes, having Wish targets can be super helpful in match ups but then again they are spots being wasted that if countered you are just in trouble. I do agree that lands is poorly positioned and it is upsetting but you can't help the deck by playing a random combo in it. Counters have always been bad for the Lands player and Mental Misstep has made it worse. If the card does end up getting banned, the deck may see some rise again.

[Keiichi]

Back when Lands was better positioned, I tested Scapeshift and found it lacking unless the entire plan was built around Valakut. The way he's trying to squeeze it in here is beyond greedy.

It does seem like he picked a poor version of the deck and just started slinging cards on a wing and a prayer, then wrote about his preconceived notions. I've played with Jason at the Monster Den more than a few times, and based on casual conversations there his opinions on Lands.dec in general have always been a bit suspect in my view.

No doubt he's a decent player, but he's not someone I would consider to be a leading authority on the deck.

On the other hand, some of his concerns are legitimate. The biggest problem is that we have no way to efficiently recur our enchantments, and we don't have a reliable and cheap way to simply end games quickly. Until we find a way around that the deck isn't going to be able to compete strongly against a field of Blue control decks with Force, Misstep, and a fast clock.

[Julian23]

One of the big differences with Reanimator is now they get Jin Gitaxis, so at some point in the game they *will* reanimate a fatty, draw cards, reanimate a fatty, draw cards, reanimate a fatty, draw cards, reanimate a fatty, draw cards, reanimate a fatty, draw cards, and eventually win.


In the past, we used to be able to just use chasm or maze to stop Iona / Inkwell.

However, you can still use Karakas on their turn to stop any Jin Gitaxis shenanigans. I admit, that this will most often require a Mox to transmute Tolaria West early on.

[fdiv_bug]

The biggest problem is that we have no way to efficiently recur our enchantments, and we don't have a reliable and cheap way to simply end games quickly. Until we find a way around that the deck isn't going to be able to compete strongly against a field of Blue control decks with Force, Misstep, and a fast clock.

I agree on both counts. Regarding recurring enchantments, the list I've been fiddling with lately has a Volrath's Stronghold and an Eternal Witness in it for that purpose, but it's often still not enough to get me there. I wish they'd print an enchantment version of Volrath's Stronghold or Academy Ruins. :tongue:

[Antonius]

I agree on both counts. Regarding recurring enchantments, the list I've been fiddling with lately has a Volrath's Stronghold and an Eternal Witness in it for that purpose, but it's often still not enough to get me there. I wish they'd print an enchantment version of Volrath's Stronghold or Academy Ruins. :tongue:

If they did, we would just dominate everyone with deed every turn.

[questionmuppet]

I am the guy who wrote the article for Quiet Speculation. I would like to clarify a few things that perhaps were not obvious from the article. (Please forgive me if this is too verbose.)

My conclusions about Lands are NOT a result of the particular tournament outlined in the article. To the contrary, they have developed gradually while piloting standard builds of the deck over the course of more than a year. I've played it in a GP, several SCG Legacy 5Ks (one of which I top-8ed (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=34735)), and countless local events. I've also tested a wide variety of different tutor engines and singletons (including most of the stuff you can find in this thread).

True, I cannot claim to be an “authority” on this deck. That being said, my opinions are based on concrete experience in a tournament setting, and they were not formed hastily. They may be wrong, but they are not unfounded.


That list looks like it's trying to do everything at once.

ESG is absolutely correct to point out how loose my decklist was. While I have a lot of experience with Lands in general, he surmises correctly that I ran this particular version pretty much blind. Unsurprisingly, I suppose, it preformed significantly worse than more traditional lists.


It does seem like he picked a poor version of the deck and just started slinging cards on a wing and a prayer.

I wasn’t running the Valakut combo because I was under the impression that it positioned me better, nor did I think it the strongest version. My intention was to ascertain what kind of strengths and weaknesses that version had, a task I think best accomplished in a live tournament.


Ultimately, Lands is trying to play a fair game, and Legacy has drifted further into the unfair.

This is precisely the argument I make in the latter half of my article. While metagame tweaking can resolve some of these issues, my contention is that even an optimal build is less powerful and consistent than strategies based on FoW and Brainstorm.

Of course, what fun would it be to quit trying? I am writing another article for QS, about what I think a close-to-optimal build of lands looks like (beginning with E Tutor and Bob.) Hopefully I can offer some more constructive commentary on the deck in that article.

[Keiichi]

I wasn’t running the Valakut combo because I was under the impression that it positioned me better, nor did I think it the strongest version. My intention was to ascertain what kind of strengths and weaknesses that version had, a task I think best accomplished in a live tournament.

Fair enough. The fact that you used your experience with a suboptimal deck list as an example for the general shortcomings of the archetype, even if that wasn't your intent, made me doubt the voracity of your arguments.


Of course, what fun would it be to quit trying? I am writing another article for QS, about what I think a close-to-optimal build of lands looks like (beginning with E Tutor and Bob.) Hopefully I can offer some more constructive commentary on the deck in that article.

While I may have been quick to write your last article off as somewhat lacking in credibility, I always give fair hearing to new opinions. Please do post a link here when you've posted it to QS, I'm looking forward to reading it.

[Antonius]

I just realized that the "lands theme" block has come and gone and given us jack shit for it.

WTF wizards.

[Keiichi]

I just realized that the "lands theme" block has come and gone and given us jack shit for it.

WTF wizards.

Powerful lands are taboo... Kind of like how powerful land destruction is taboo. I know, if they print powerful LD, they can print powerful lands. Screw the complainers, problem solved.

[GoldenCid]

The Problem With Lands, or What’s Cooler Than Being Cool? (http://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/08/the-problem-with-lands-or-whats-cooler-than-being-cool/)



The Problem With Lands, or What’s Cooler Than Being Cool? (http://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/08/the-problem-with-lands-or-whats-cooler-than-being-cool/)

Pfff, sad and upset to read an article like this, what was it objetive? :@

On lands what about this guy??

http://www.imagengratis.org/thumbs/vengefulphara.jpg (http://www.imagengratis.org/?v=vengefulphara.jpg)

Has anybody tested it? You can maze the big guy and destroy the small one with him! It's a way to cut the creatures of our opo.

[rocketrae21]

Hmm seems interesting? I have not tested it but would totally be willing to. How many do you think you would run in a list?
I honestly want to run Jace, TMS in Lands because well Jace is the boss

[GoldenCid]

Hmm seems interesting? I have not tested it but would totally be willing to. How many do you think you would run in a list?
I honestly want to run Jace, TMS in Lands because well Jace is the boss

Just 1, the difference beetwen jace and pahraon is that this onme acts from yard without spending mana ;)

[rocketrae21]

Oh I know. The Jace was a separate thought. I wasn't saying that he replaces Pharaoh or anything. Just brainstorming (no pun intended)

[GoldenCid]

Oh I know. The Jace was a separate thought. I wasn't saying that he replaces Pharaoh or anything. Just brainstorming (no pun intended)

Yeah but pharaoh is a real strong choice!!

[rocketrae21]

Yeah but pharaoh is a real strong choice!!

Well you make me want to play it more and more. I don't know why. The only problem is Lands isn't good in the meta game right now with the whole Mental Misstep being everywhere. I promise you though if Mental Misstep gets banned or I don't care that much about a tournament I will test your Pharaoh

[TheGube]

I promise you though if Mental Misstep gets banned or I don't care that much about a tournament I will test your Pharaoh

Well there you go. MM got banned :smile: (just too bad i sold my hightide deck and built reanimator about 3 weeks ago but o well :rolleyes:) I will be piloting Lands again with pretty much a dedicated anti combo board that im still working on any suggestions?


4 Exploration
4 Manabond
4 Life from the Loam
3 Intuition

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Mindslaver
1 Zuran orb

4 Mox Diamond

1 Forest
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Bayou
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs

3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tolaria West

4 Rishaden Port
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Maze of ith
1 Creeping tar pit
1 Cephalid Coliseum


1 Tabernacle at pendrell vale
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Academy Ruins
1 Urborg, Tomb of yawgmoth

// Side Board
4 Chalice of the void
2 Ethersworn canonist
1 Darkblast
1 Volrath's stronghold
1 Karakas
3 Knight of the reliquary
3 Krosan Grip

[Wanderlust]

Can't wait to resolve some Explorations and Manabonds again unmolested by MMS.

As for:

Decklist

I would say the maindeck flex slots are:
1 Tranquil Thicket
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yagmoth

I would personally try to squeeze Karakas into the maindeck just to free up one slot in the SB. How necessary have you found Urborg in getting maze/tabernacle/chasm mana for the Mindslaver lock? Does it serve any other function really? That would be the first card I would try taking out for Karakas.

I like Mishra's Factory, as it gives us more ways to attack Jace and block an early Goblin Lackey, but some seasoned pilots argue that the singleton Creeping Tar Pit is enough manlands.

Any reason for not running at least one Ghost Quarter?

As for the sideboard, I would love to hear your explanation for your choices. My biggest concern is that there currently aren't any card advantage alternatives to the Loam engine (ie., Dark Confidant or Crucible of Worlds). That seems risky if facing any hate, esp. Extirpate and Surgical Extraction, which will probably show up fairly often.

[GoldenCid]

@The gube: i'm running an almost exact list than yours. But i added Worm Harvest. Did you test it?

[mchainmail]

@The gube: i'm running an almost exact list than yours. But i added Worm Harvest. Did you test it?

There's been infinite discussion on this card already; some people like it, the rest think it's terrible.

My old sideboard was:

3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Null Rod
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Arcane Laboratory
4 Dark Confidant

1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ghostly Prison
2 Other Cards

as the anti-combo package. I think I was 70% or so across 10+ sanctioned matches against Storm combo. You really need both proactive and reactive hate to beat combo, especially Spiral Tide.

[rocketrae21]

I dont like having land in the sideboard. Therefore I am not a fan of the karakas being there. Also I would suggest cutting down to 2 Manabonds and then running 2 Enlightened Tutor. I have to try to optimize my list again and find a spot for the Pharaoh to test.
I'm sad MM got banned but I'm happy I can play this pile again.

Once I figure out my list, I will post it for you guys to hate on or whatever

[GoldenCid]

There's been infinite discussion on this card already; some people like it, the rest think it's terrible.



Because of tabernacle?? It sounds antisinergic but you can just "pay" for the amount of worms you need and that's it. Then you retrace, multiply your army with bunch of chumpblockers.

On Pharaoh: i'm not sure on the ruling. A creature that dealt damage is still considered as attacking creature??

[Antonius]

Because of tabernacle?? It sounds antisinergic but you can just "pay" for the amount of worms you need and that's it.

Nah, Dog, you sac your Tabernacle to Zuran on their endstep then just replay that shit on your turn.

[GoldenCid]

Nah, Dog, you sac your Tabernacle to Zuran on their endstep then just replay that shit on your turn.

So...why is terrible???? Dog.

[Einherjer]

.

On Pharaoh: i'm not sure on the ruling. A creature that dealt damage is still considered as attacking creature??

Yes.

[Serbitar]

So...why is terrible???? Dog.

My intuition is this: Worm Harvest requires your gameplan to work already - that is, you are dredging Loam repeatedly and have played a lot of lands. If your gameplan works already, you should win - Worm Harvest or not (this obviously applies to Mindslaver, too). I also find myself with very few lands in grave most of the time I do have Loam running (and obviously with even fewer if I don't).

[Leftconsin]

The point of Worm Harvest every time I have played it is simply time constraint. I was having trouble playing 3 games in 50 minutes before Worm Harvest. It clogs the deck up a bit, and is winmore, but I know I want to stop having game 3s where my opponent has little to no permanents, is at some high life total, and time gets called. If you are confident that you can play at a fast pace, and keep your opponent at a fast pace, then this just doesn't apply to you.

[GoldenCid]

In my experience harvest has delayed the match until i get an answer or won it right staight. I know it requires 5 mana but remember that it has retrace, that puts a one more land in yard before it resolves. And yes i have some lands 5-8 when playing it. Remember that loam takes out just 3 not all. Finally it requires much less mana than slaver (i run both). I don't konow maybe it depends on the pilot.

[TheGube]

Can't wait to resolve some Explorations and Manabonds again unmolested by MMS.

As for:


I would say the maindeck flex slots are:
1 Tranquil Thicket
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yagmoth

I would personally try to squeeze Karakas into the maindeck just to free up one slot in the SB. How necessary have you found Urborg in getting maze/tabernacle/chasm mana for the Mindslaver lock? Does it serve any other function really? That would be the first card I would try taking out for Karakas.

I like Mishra's Factory, as it gives us more ways to attack Jace and block an early Goblin Lackey, but some seasoned pilots argue that the singleton Creeping Tar Pit is enough manlands.

Any reason for not running at least one Ghost Quarter?

As for the sideboard, I would love to hear your explanation for your choices. My biggest concern is that there currently aren't any card advantage alternatives to the Loam engine (ie., Dark Confidant or Crucible of Worlds). That seems risky if facing any hate, esp. Extirpate and Surgical Extraction, which will probably show up fairly often.

Hmm coulda sworn I had Ghost quarter in the list. Guess its just -1 factory +1 quarter. I generally play around the targeted hate via cycling in response.

I havent tested canonist and darkblast has been in there for meddling mage which ive seen in many lists in my meta lately. ive toyed with worm harvest and the urborg is a holdover from that. (also toyed with ravens crime found it totally win more) but ive had troubles with closing the game as well sometimes so I added knights/stronghold, crucible is also in and out of the 75 alot i just cant justify dropping the land count any more than it is.

[Serbitar]

I don't think Worm Harvest//Mindslaver are the solution to drawing some game 3s. Sure you might find it in time but it is still a one-of. So more often than not you will have to spend time searching it and will find it too late or not at all. I think unintentionally drawing some games is simply inherent to the Lands strategy and your best bet at hedging that risk is learning to play faster.
(This also means you have to constantly make sure your opponent plays at a reasonable pace. My impression is that games with Lands go so long because the opponent is taking forever. Lands itself is quite straightforward most of the time.)


Btw, my current list is this:

1x Academy Ruins
1x Creeping Tar Pit
3x Mishra's Factory
4x Maze of Ith
1x Glacial Chasm
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Karakas
3x Tranquil Thicket
3x Tolaria West
4x Green Fetch
3x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
1x Forest
4x Mox Diamond

4x Life from the Loam
4x Exploration
4x Manabond
4x Intuition
1x Zuran Orb
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Oblivion Stone

Board:
4x Dark Confidant
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Cabal Pit
1x Krosan Grip (I recently lost a game to Null Rod, so maybe I need more of these)
2x Oblivion Stone
3x Cursed Totem (if Maverick or GSZ-decks in general are still that common, now with Misstep banned)

[GoldenCid]

I'm cosidering agian running 1 of Oblivion Stone in side or MD. I solves the toruble of planeswalkers. Yesterday a Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas destroyed me twice, lol. Maybe my side would be:

4 Chalice
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Null rod
3 Grip
1 Stone
2 Crypt

[Julian23]

Never count out Pithing Needle. I think it's the superior choice to Oblivion Stone, especially with MMS banned now. Hardly any deck runs more than 1 Planeswalker you really want to deal with, plus Needle is super-duper-uber more flexible than Stone.

[Serbitar]

I actually think Oblivion Stone - while being clunkier - is more flexible than Needle. But maybe I'm looking at it from the wrong angle. The way I see O-Stone, its a catch all answer. Not only does it handle planeswalkers but also random hate like Leyline or Crypts, big monsters like Emrakul or Progenitus, aggro guys lying around, Blood Moon, Enchantress (which is pretty unwinnable without Stone) ... The only of these Needle handles too are Crypt/Relic and maybe stuff like Lavamancer. I also dislike in cards like Needle that you are prone to get blown out once the opponent handles it (in this regard it is alot like Humility).

[rocketrae21]

So are we thinking Lands is a viable strategy at the moment? I have no idea what the format is going to become and I was doing some testing with Lands against NO RUG and it wasn't going so well for me. I really want to play this deck again, but maybe I have graduation goggles about the deck.

[GoldenCid]

So are we thinking Lands is a viable strategy at the moment? I have no idea what the format is going to become and I was doing some testing with Lands against NO RUG and it wasn't going so well for me. I really want to play this deck again, but maybe I have graduation goggles about the deck.

Think like this:

-Misstep is banned: So FoW is the main trouble to drop Explo / Manabond. With mox diamond daze is meh.
-Discard effects can be minimized with intuition, if an enchantment was discarded, or with loam to retrieve lands discarded with H. to tourach.
-We have intensive mana denial: 4 Wasteland and 4 Ports and some have a Ghost quarter.
-We have an strong anti aggro lock.
-With the draw engine of the deck, Jace is not a big big problem for us.

If i'd run lands i'd take care of combo match up. Reforcing the antio combo SB cards could be healthy.

My 2 cents...

[rocketrae21]

You really don't think Jace is a problem? That card is the biggest pain in the ass for me if I can't effectively waste/port lock them.

[Julian23]

To be fair, Jace 2.0 is quite a problem for Lands, mainly due to its ultimate. That's why a lot of list run stuff like Creeping Tar Pit. However, in my experience, the best you can do/try is to keep them off of 4 mana in the first place.

Still, having played Lands for quite a long time, I advise against playing it if you really want to do well in big tournaments (especially talking about GP Amsterdam here). It's not even all that much about the abysmal combo matchup but about the deck itself. You can easily dominate local metagames with it but at a GP you'll want a more reliable deck that doesn't depend as much on its oppening hand as Lands does. Wasteland, Port, Mox, Exploration, Intuition, Fetchland, Tolaria West looks pretty fine but once your opponent counters the Intuition you're basically in topdeck mode.
(All this applies to the standard UG(b/w) version of Lands)

Still, Lands will always be the deck to have the most fun with. It's like a giant puzzle you half to solve: super challenging but providing a very rewarding feeling when you manage to get yourself out of a sticky situation over the course of like 10 turns.

[GoldenCid]

What about Horn of greed to get rid of Topdeck mode?? Or minimize it?

[rocketrae21]

What about Horn of greed to get rid of Topdeck mode?? Or minimize it?

We don't want the opponents to get extra draws though.

I do agree with Julian though. The problem is my meta game isn't as large as GP, but the players are quite good. That is the main place I play so I want to make Lands good enough/become good enough playing it to do well there. If I can't, there doesn't seem to be a point owning all the cards for it.

[Antonius]

the best card that hasn't been considered yet is brainstorm.

[rocketrae21]

the best card that hasn't been considered yet is brainstorm.

Why would a deck like Lands want to play brainstorm though? If its in our opening hand or we draw it early awesome, but once we have the Loam going, it just gets dredged and takes up space in our list. Through out my time playing this deck I have found it very hard to cut cards from it. You don't want the Land count to get too low and you want to make sure you can get the Loam engine running with an exploration or manabond. So there is now way I could find spots to run brainstorm

[Antonius]

Why would a deck like Lands want to play brainstorm though? If its in our opening hand or we draw it early awesome, but once we have the Loam going, it just gets dredged and takes up space in our list. Through out my time playing this deck I have found it very hard to cut cards from it. You don't want the Land count to get too low and you want to make sure you can get the Loam engine running with an exploration or manabond. So there is now way I could find spots to run brainstorm

4 Fetches
3 Tropical Island
2 Taiga
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Porn
4 Maze of Ith
1 Tabernacle
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Chasm
1 Academy Ruins
1 Raging Ravine
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Karakas/Tormod's Crypt (Meta call, this)
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tolaria West

4 Mox Diamond
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Zuran Orb
1 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Burning Wish
3 Life from the Loam

4 Brainstorm

4 Exploration
3 Manabond

Relevant Wish Targets:
Loam
Devastating Dreams
Hull Breach
Worm Harvest

Brainstorm has been the nuts like 70-85% of the time it resolved, either finding loam/burning wish, acceleration or tolaria west for the second half of a soft lock combo (tabernacle/maze, ee/ruins). Also, brainstorm with manabond is silly, as is brainstorming into mox diamond. Also, 1 land + multiple mox + brainstorm + wish/loam. NUTS.

lastly, complaining about dredging away brainstorm is like complaining about dredging away intuition. It's pointless and inevitably going to happen. Part of playing the deck.

[Fuzzy]

Wasn't Enlightened Tutor the next big thing in Monolands control? Or I'm missing something?

[rocketrae21]

4 Fetches
3 Tropical Island
2 Taiga
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Porn
4 Maze of Ith
1 Tabernacle
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Chasm
1 Academy Ruins
1 Raging Ravine
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Karakas/Tormod's Crypt (Meta call, this)
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tolaria West

4 Mox Diamond
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Zuran Orb
1 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Burning Wish
3 Life from the Loam

4 Brainstorm

4 Exploration
3 Manabond

Relevant Wish Targets:
Loam
Devastating Dreams
Hull Breach
Worm Harvest

Brainstorm has been the nuts like 70-85% of the time it resolved, either finding loam/burning wish, acceleration or tolaria west for the second half of a soft lock combo (tabernacle/maze, ee/ruins). Also, brainstorm with manabond is silly, as is brainstorming into mox diamond. Also, 1 land + multiple mox + brainstorm + wish/loam. NUTS.

lastly, complaining about dredging away brainstorm is like complaining about dredging away intuition. It's pointless and inevitably going to happen. Part of playing the deck.

Any reason to play Raging Ravine over a Creeping Tar Pit? Also how has Cephalid Colosseum been?

[Antonius]

Ravine taps for both green and red--a lot better than tapping for blue and black--and that is relevant at times, mainly for casting Wish into Devastating Dreams. Cephalid has been alright thus far, though I must say that the greastest value I've gotten from it is the fact that it simply taps for U. the added ability is really gravy on top of that.

[rocketrae21]

Ravine taps for both green and red--a lot better than tapping for blue and black--and that is relevant at times, mainly for casting Wish into Devastating Dreams. Cephalid has been alright thus far, though I must say that the greastest value I've gotten from it is the fact that it simply taps for U. the added ability is really gravy on top of that.

So say you cut Cephalid what would you run? Think Tar Pit could take that spot?