[Deck] 43 Lands

[GoldenCid]

Do you think that burning wish and brainstorm are better than intuition?

[Serbitar]

I got to test Brainstorm in an - albeit small - tourney recently and like the results so far. Your topdecks get way better, making it easier to keep a hand like 6 lands, enchantment (which I would really like to keep with this deck).

I was not running Burning Wish, though - in RUG the targets are not all that appealing to me. I would love to have access to Perish or Redistribution of the Meek, an answer to Planeswalkers or something like that.

My list was:
36 land, 4 mox
4 brainstorm
4 loam
3 intuition
4 exploration
3 manabond
1 ee
1 zuran orb

[rocketrae21]

I actually think that running burning wish isn't a bad idea, but I actually took that list and cut Cephalid Coliseum for a Bayou to open up having black in the sideboard. Dark Confidant is just nutty in the board

[Heresy]

Creeping Tar Pit + Kessig Wolf Run seems nice.

[Fuzzy]

Creeping Tar Pit + Kessig Wolf Run seems nice.

Should I say Inkmoth Nexus?

[iostream]

Man, I took a break from Magic for a few months, and things done changed. What happened to Enlightened Tutor? Why is Brainstorm of interest when we already have more Intuition and/or Top? In particular - how can the deck consistently stabilize in the first few turns if you have no tutoring in the form of Intuition or Enlightened Tutor? Sticking a lock piece early in the game is crucial in a lot of matchups.

As for Inkmoth Nexus/Kessig Wolf Run, I really like the idea, as I actually don't like black very much at all and would prefer to cut Tar Pit and black entirely. Out of the board, it offers Confidant and that's about it. I think that, especially in the white versions of the decks that rely more on bullet lands and artifacts (some of which have casting costs that actually hurt when Bob flips them - e.g. Smokestack), having quick tutoring in the form of Knight of the Reliquary is better from the board. Wolf Run/Nexus also offers a much faster way to end the game than the usual Mindslaver/Tar Pit/Factory tricks, which has been a perennial annoyance for this deck.

Next, what about Buried Ruin? There was chatter about it when M12 came out, and I think it's a great companion to Academy Ruins. It makes the deck able to dredge more aggressively, and sets up pretty interesting Intuition piles, especially against slower, more controlling decks (e.g. Buried Ruin/Crucible of Worlds/Life from the Loam)

Finally, I've found mana consistency to be an issue with the 4 and 5 color versions of the deck. I think the most promising build is a GUw configuration that plays the Enlightened Tutor package, as well as Kessig Wolf Run and Inkmoth Nexus, with Wolf Run being the only thing not being green, blue, or white. To activate Wolf Run, I would probably rely on Mox Diamond and possible one Taiga, although I might not even run the Taiga as the deck is usually able to stick one Diamond over the course of the game. This is something I'm going to try start testing.

[Serbitar]

I'm not sure what happened to the advocates of E.Tutor - I was never much of a fan. I thought Tutor - at least in those lists that cut Intuition/Manabond to make room for Tutor/Artifacts - makes finding Loam very hard. I never wanted to keep any hand without Loam because you might easiliy simply never find one.

Brainstorm on the other hand finds both Loam/Enchantment and is less clunky than Intuition (which you still run) - in my first try at it, I cut the 4th Intuition, 4th Manabond and two situational artifacts (Ensnaring Bridge and Oblivion Stone) for the Brainstorms. I guess situations will come up where not having the artifacts is bad - a resolved Progenitus comes to mind. But there will be situations as well where being able to execute your plan A (Loam/Enchantment) better will lead to winning -- I'm not sure which situation will be more common, yet.

What are the advantages of Buried Ruin over Academy Ruins (or of having both over just one)? If you're blue anyway, I like Academy Ruins' not needing a landdrop for every recursion better than Buried Ruins' not needing a draw.

I'm not sure whether I like the Wolf Run idea. You get to convert every spare mana into x-3 points of power. For this you need to be red and run a colorless do-nothing-land.
That brings me to the 'open land slot' question. For me, the following are obligatory:

4 Maze, Tabernacle, Chasm
4 Port, 4 Waste, Ghost Quarter
4 Fetch, 3 Tropical Island, Forest
3 Tolaria West, 3 Tranquil Thicket
Academy Ruins, Karakas (?)

which leaves you with 5 slots (given 36 land) in which I run:
Bayou, Creeping Tar Pit, 3 Mishra's Factory

I guess you could do: Taiga, Wolf Run, 3 Inkmoth Nexus - but I think this looks worse both defensively against decks where you want to block (Merfolk, Goblins, to some extend Zoo) and Planeswalkers. The increase in game ending speed looks rather marginal, too.

[Serbitar]

I'm not sure what happened to the advocates of E.Tutor - I was never much of a fan. I thought Tutor - at least in those lists that cut Intuition/Manabond to make room for Tutor/Artifacts - makes finding Loam very hard. I never wanted to keep any hand without Loam because you might easily simply never find one.

Brainstorm on the other hand finds both Loam/Enchantment and is less clunky than Intuition (which you still run) - in my first try at it, I cut the 4th Intuition, 4th Manabond and two situational artifacts (Ensnaring Bridge and Oblivion Stone) for the Brainstorms. I guess situations will come up where not having the artifacts is bad -- a resolved Progenitus comes to mind. But there will be situations as well where being able to better execute your plan A (Loam/Enchantment) will lead to winning -- I'm not sure which situation will be more common, yet.

What are the advantages of Buried Ruin over Academy Ruins (or of having both over just one)? If you're blue anyway, I like Academy Ruins' not needing a landdrop for every recursion better than Buried Ruins' not needing a draw.

I'm not sure whether I like the Wolf Run idea. You get to convert every spare mana into X-3 points of power. For this you need to be red and run a colorless do-nothing-land. I tend to never have much mana to spare anyway -- between Ports, Loaming, and activating a manland.
That brings me to the 'open land slot' question. For me, the following are obligatory:

4 Maze, Tabernacle, Chasm
4 Port, 4 Waste, Ghost Quarter
4 Fetch, 3 Tropical Island, Forest
3 Tolaria West, 3 Tranquil Thicket
Academy Ruins, Karakas (?)

which leaves you with 5 slots (given 36 land) in which I run:
Bayou, Creeping Tar Pit, 3 Mishra's Factory

I guess you could do: Taiga, Wolf Run, 2-3 Inkmoth Nexus - but I think this looks worse both defensively against decks where you want to block (Merfolk, Goblins, to some extend Zoo) and against Planeswalkers. The increase in game ending speed looks rather marginal, too.

[iostream]

Well, we already have a good matchup against Goblins, Merfolk, and Zoo, so I don't think that's really a big concern. But when things get tough against aggro, the role of the Factories is to buy time by chump blocking - they don't usually trade with tarmogoyf, etc. Inkmoth Nexus, on the other hand, can also chump, and on top of that there's the possibility of killing the creature over the course of a few turns. Its evasion also helps, since early game Factories seldom get in for much damage, whereas with Nexus, it seems like you can often get a head start on poison count when Factory would otherwise be a do-nothing.

[Fuzzy]

I'm here for two things: First, how is the BUG Landstill matchup? What We should do to improve this?

Second, I'm looking for help in this list:

4 Exploration
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
3 Manabond
3 Intuition
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Enginereed Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mindslaver

4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Tolaria West
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Mishra's Factory (Should I play Treetop Village to increase my chances against Jaces?)
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas

Sideboard:
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Ethersworn Canonist (Flex Slot)
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Zuran Orb

I'm posting it thanks to iostream sugesting the topic about KotR. I'm not really impressed with Dark Confidants, so I decided keep it just Bant. Except for the Mindslaver in main and 3 Canonists (I really don't know what I should use instead) I'm really happy about my decklist.

Last weekend I played in a small tournament (40ish people is small for you in Europe and US, right?) with the deck and ended 3-3. I won against Reanimator, Zoo and Boros and lose for TES (But I won one game, so for me I'm the moral champion), BUGstill and Elves. I was testing Jaces along with Reliquary, but they wasn't that good - Reliquary, on other side, was awesome all day.

Well, that's my 2 cents.

[Vandalize]

I'm here for two things: First, how is the BUG Landstill matchup? What We should do to improve this?

Second, I'm looking for help in this list:

4 Exploration
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
3 Manabond
3 Intuition
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Enginereed Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mindslaver

4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Tolaria West
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Mishra's Factory (Should I play Treetop Village to increase my chances against Jaces?)
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas

Sideboard:
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Ethersworn Canonist (Flex Slot)
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Zuran Orb

I'm posting it thanks to iostream sugesting the topic about KotR. I'm not really impressed with Dark Confidants, so I decided keep it just Bant. Except for the Mindslaver in main and 3 Canonists (I really don't know what I should use instead) I'm really happy about my decklist.

Last weekend I played in a small tournament (40ish people is small for you in Europe and US, right?) with the deck and ended 3-3. I won against Reanimator, Zoo and Boros and lose for TES (But I won one game, so for me I'm the moral champion), BUGstill and Elves. I was testing Jaces along with Reliquary, but they wasn't that good - Reliquary, on other side, was awesome all day.

Well, that's my 2 cents.

This deck has an uber positive aggro matchup, and a good non-jace control matchup. It's only problem is combo (perhaps storm and painterstone). So, why not shoring up the combo matchup with 4 Chalice of the Void and Sphere of Resistance? As for Jace 2.0, there's Beast Within which is a green vindicate and giving an useless elephant to your foe.

And Zuran Orb must be in main deck. It's tutorable with Tolaria West and has a great synergy with Clacial Chasm against fast decks.

Another thing I'd like to say, is that Mishra's Factory sucks. Creeping Tar Pit and Treetop Village are the way to go imo.

[Fuzzy]

This deck has an uber positive aggro matchup, and a good non-jace control matchup. It's only problem is combo (perhaps storm and painterstone). So, why not shoring up the combo matchup with 4 Chalice of the Void and Sphere of Resistance? As for Jace 2.0, there's Beast Within which is a green vindicate and giving an useless elephant to your foe.

And Zuran Orb must be in main deck. It's tutorable with Tolaria West and has a great synergy with Clacial Chasm against fast decks.

Another thing I'd like to say, is that Mishra's Factory sucks. Creeping Tar Pit and Treetop Village are the way to go imo.

First of all, thanks for your reply.

I like both Sphere and Chalice, but Canonist gives me a better edge against Spiral Tide while also providing a (even a little) clock, so I will stick with this.

For Beast Within, I don't like a spell I can't search for. I would just run Oblivion Ring first, but the Landstill deck can just destroy it with Deed. There's no other way to keep Jace in control which don't involve Squadron Hawk?

I could agree for Zuran Orb, but it's only necessary versus Mono Red Burn and MAAAAYBE Zoo, againt anything else it's a dead draw. I could say I can try to beat ANT/TES in Game 1, but who we are trying to foolish?

Someone here told me to run some Factories in the Misstep-Era, because I can't beat Merfolk. Maybe now they are useless, I don't know. Sunday I'll test 3top Village in a large tournament and post the results later.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Hey guys,
I have been gone from these forums for a while. I playtest this deck religiously; it is my second most playtested deck out of the 12 decks I play in sanctioned events. Here is my list:

1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Zuran Orb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Smokestacks
4 Mox Diamond

4 Exploration
2 Manabond

3 Enlightened Tutor

4 Life from the Loam

3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Forest
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Rishadan Port
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Creeping Tar-pit
1 Academy Ruins
3 Tolaria West

SB
2 Krosan Grip
2 Perish
2 Extirpate
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Null Rod
1 Energy Flux
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Ensnaring Bridge

This is 100% the optimal build for me, but this deck is so personal that some choices might differ depending on the player. High Tide is unwinnable, UB Storm is hard to beat, and TES is unfavored, but certainly beatable. I want to play against pretty much every other matchup in Legacy, as I feel like this deck has a great gameplan against the field.

A few things I noticed in the discussions:

-Jace. You need to be ready for Jace one way or another. I have maindeck Needle with 3 E Tutors and 2 additional Needles in the board. This doesn't mean, however, that Jace is unbeatable. I feel perfectly fine against Jace with this list; you just need the tools to fight him.

-E Tutor. This really is the way to go. It gives the deck so much flexibility, and Intuition is way too slow to be good anymore. I know, I played Intuition at one point. It was awesome, but its time has come and gone. Finding Loam is NOT a problem when you run maindeck Crucible with E Tutor and 2 Tops.

-2 Tops. Please play these or at least try them. They make the deck so much more consistent. They are nuts with Manabond + Loam game 1, and they save Loam from 90% of GY hate game 2.

-Crucible. If you don't have this in your 75, you are doing it wrong. People not playing Crucible are completely cold to Extirpate, and the Hysteria surrounding Extirpate and friend (Surgical Extraction) is probably correct after looking at some of these lists. You also really need it to be maindeck in this modern world of E Tutor, but at least putting it somewhere in your 75 is a good start.

-Storm. We can beat storm, believe it or not. E Tutor, powerful silver bullets, and Wasteland really give us a game. High Tide, however, is certainly what I consider "unbeatable"... But that's OK.

I have to go watch a movie with the wifey, but I will be back to continue this discussion later :smile:

[Philipp2293]

Now that Extirpate and Surgical Extraction are probably gonna be widely played (Reanimator, good with and against Snapcaster Mage), are you happy without a Dark Confidant plan from the SB? I'm asking cause I'm considering picking this deck up again, and apart from the lack of confis in the SB it looks great!

[Serbitar]

Finding Loam is NOT a problem when you run maindeck Crucible with E Tutor and 2 Tops.


Maybe my experience with this is incomplete but I feel that the would-be-Loams just cannot replace/simulate Loam. For example Crucible: For this to work you more or less have to have Wasteland (you can recur fetchlands or a transmuted Tolaria West, sure, but where does that get you against any kind of pressure?). I like Top but am unconformtable with banking on it to find Loam, especially if I have to find it with E.Tutor first.

What kinds of hands do you keep with such a deck (against an unknown opponent)? Would you keep Tutor, six lands/moxes? Enchantment, six lands? Enchantment, artifact, 5 lands? Loam, six lands?
(Say the lands are Fetch, Trop, Tabernacle, Maze, Port, (Tolaria West))

[Serbitar]

Finding Loam is NOT a problem when you run maindeck Crucible with E Tutor and 2 Tops.


Maybe my experience with this is incomplete but I feel that the would-be-Loams just cannot replace/simulate Loam. For example Crucible: For this to work you more or less have to have Wasteland (you can recur fetchlands or a transmuted Tolaria West, sure, but where does that get you against any kind of pressure?). I like Top but am unconformtable with banking on it to find Loam, especially if I have to find it with E.Tutor first.

What kinds of hands do you keep with such a deck (against an unknown opponent)? Would you keep Tutor, six lands/moxes? Enchantment, six lands? Enchantment, artifact, 5 lands? Loam, six lands?
(Say the lands are Fetch, Trop, Tabernacle, Maze, Port, (Tolaria West))

[Patrunkenphat7]

@Philip: Dark Confidant plan in the SB is good; I played it for quite a while. I think it is perfectly fine if that's what you decide to do. I would probably go -2 Perish, -1 Pithing Needle, +3 Confidant if I were to put them back in. I really like Perish though - it's my way of dealing with Knight of the Reliquary, Progenitus, and Elves all in one card.

The reason why I cut Bob was because the matchups where I want it are usually matchups where a more powerful strategy exists with another card. Dark Confidant is too slow against Reanimator, and you need quick answers before you worry about your GY. If you can successfully stop their onslaught and assemble Karakas, you are eventually going to win. The only cards you have to worry about in that matchup are Angel of Despair and Inky, so that's where you need to use your Extirpates and Crypt. Chalice at 1 is very good against them if you can land it early. Against Rock I try to assemble the safer Crucible plan in game 2 followed by Smokestack, which is very powerful. Team America is not happy when you Wasteland a Sea, followed by Extirpate, at which point they only have 3 colored mana-producing lands left in their deck.

I think this deck is so personalized that you can certainly qualify a reason for running Bob if that's how you want to play your game 2's.

@Serbitar: Crucible + Wasteland, Crucible + Horizon Canopy, and Crucible + Fetchlands take over the game quickly, especially with Exploration in play. This is where maindeck Smokestack becomes amazing as well; against Rock-style decks Smokestack + Crucible is often better than the Loam engine, especially for games 2 and 3. The E Tutor package simply allows for more options and greater consistency. Tolaria West allows you to snag your Horizon Canopy so that you can start drawing through your deck. The most important factor is that you can recur Crucible with Academy Ruins, but you can never recur an Intuition. Remember, you are not 'replacing' Loams, you are making the deck more consistent so that you can eventually find Loam or lock your opponent out with powerful artifacts. And Top + Fetchlands go a long way at providing greater consistency... I win plenty of games without Loam due to how powerful some of the artifact locks are, but I found that it was EXTREMELY hard to win without Loam in the Intuition version.

When your Intuition gets Dazed and you have nothing else going on, you are going to lose the game. When you can E Tutor Ensnaring Bridge and completely lock the Fish player out with a card that you can recur with Academy Ruins... Well, you get the picture. You are fine with them Forcing E Tutor when you have Tops, Ensnaring Bridge, Smokestack, mana accel, ect., and it is nice that Daze (and Cursecatcher) are dead against your strategy.

As far as keepable hands, it is going to be similar to any other version of this deck. You just won't be as reliant on resolving an Intuition. Your topdecks are better, and there are more cards that just say 'win' in certain matchups. Some of your sample hands completely depend on what those lands are. For Example, Mox, 5 powerful and diverse lands (Wasteland, Port, Maze, Trop, Canopy), and E Tutor is 100% keepable. With those kinds of hands, E Tutoring for a Top is not terrible, but a Crucible will be amazing against a slower deck. Ensnaring Bridge might be the right answer depending on their turn 1. Say the Maze was a Tolaria West, then you can snag your Academy Ruins which really opens up your options even more for E Tutor.

I have played many versions of this deck, and you really have to try it rather than speculating; it is very fun to play. I won a GP trial with E Tutor Lands without dropping a single round against a pretty diverse field, and it was a blast. Beating Tezz Affinity simply because I had Energy Flux and Null Rod silver bullets was awesome.

[Cire]

I made these couple of posts in the format discussion thread, but since it's about this deck i might as well post it here

Unburial Rites 4B (5)
Sorcery, U
Return target creature card from your graveyard to the battlefield.
Flashback {3}{W} (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its flashback cost. Then exile it.)

Why do I think this card has potential? --> Intuition. With Intuition you can make a pile of Unburial Rites, Gigapede and Any Big Creature Appropriate for the situation. It fits the curve perfectly... EOT 2U --> Untap pay 3W --> profit. It's a one card synergy to get a game ending card out onto the battlefield (Anything that reanimator runs).

-34 lands
4 Fetches
3 Tropical Island
3 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Maze of Ith
2 Tolaria West
1 Tabernacle
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Academy Ruins
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Karakas
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Secluded steppe
1 Nantuko Monastery

-4 Creatures
2 Gigapede
2 Jin-Gitaxias

-22 Spells
4 Mox Diamond
4 LFTL
4 Intuition
4 exploration
3 manabond
2 Unburial Rites
1 Engineered Explosives

Now as far the Land to Spell Ratio is concerned, i'm not a lands player so i wouldn't know if it is truly effective, but! The game plan of accel into a whole bunch of lands --> control is still there... if not more so. Additionally when you have 3 lands if you intuition into the "combo" you land Jin-Git into play and pretty much win. Or you can intuition into a wasteland lock, and slowly dredge into a Unburial --> Jin-Git win. What this combo adds to the deck is a reliable quick win condition, which only takes up 6 spots {I think you can actually decrease the amount of unburial + Jin-Git by one so even if you draw into them both you can intuition for 2 gigapede --> which allows you two more lands...} , which is a welcome change over it's usually slow game play.

(obviously you can replace Jin-Git with anything.... i simply love the card)

-As i mentioned briefly you can take out 1 Unburial and 1 Jin-Git for whatever you want

[Patrunkenphat7]

Every time a set comes out somebody tries to cram in some kind of weird 'tech'. It's a good effort to be thinking outside the box, but this is not where the deck wants to be going. Also, Gin is pretty terrible as a reanimation target when Lands plays absolutely nothing reactive to protect him off the draw. Something cute like Worm Harvest would be a lot better, but that's still pretty bad.

[Fuzzy]

Hi guys!

As I said before here in this thread, last sunday I have played a 104-man tournament here in Brazil, and ended with a really nice score: 4-2-1 (W-L-D).

I started 3-0 winning against a rogue mono black reanimator deck, Burn (!) and TES (!!!). In round 4, I was paired with my friend and teammate Leandro Barion (Lebarion on Source) playing Death and Taxes (MonoW). This tournament offers a National Legacy Championship as additional prize. I was already qualified, so I concede to him (All our team was splited and he wons the whole thing, congratz man!).

Next round I won versus TES again (!!!!!!!!!!!), and played in round 6 against another friend/teammate Marcelo Scatena (ScatmanX) playing Goblins. I lost the first game for a main deck Blood Moon (Of course) and the second one for a questionable play (which we talk about later and we found out that was the right play) involving an Enlightened Tutor and the choice between Bridge vs. Crucible. In the final round, I ended drawing against UW StoneCaster-Blade, where I "easily" won game 1, then lost the second game to triple Surgical Extraction, double Relic and Jace TMS. I was drawing really bad cards in the last game but it still was a tied one, in the end we can't finish the game in time.

I don't know if D+T is a bad matchup, but I think it would be favorable if we ended playing. I'm morally a 5-1-1 player, and winning two matchs against TES made my day.

THe list was the same I posted last friday, with Factorys (can't find 3tops) and with 3 Canonist, 1 Mana Maze on board (Losing do Elves in the event prior made me feel bad). I wasn't that happy since I first played Survival Madness, and I'm loving my list so much (EXCEPT FOR THE MINDSLAVER!).

Well, just sharing a feel thoughts.

[cuthbertthecat]

I was playtesting today, and maverick was a much harder matchup than it seems on paper. Does anybody have any suggestions on how to beat such a deck? I was about 50-50 game one, with game 2 ranging from 1 win, 4 losses when I boarded in extirpates on top of bobs and to back to around in 50-50 when I stopped bringing in extirpate. It just seems abnormally bad for us against a deck that's pretty much fair bears with only 3 basics.

[Serbitar]

The thing with Maverick is that turn two Knight (and access to eight Knights) is trouble. Them having access to Wasteland at will and Pridemage at will is hard. Also, they are quite hard to cut off of their mana due to Hierach. Still, the matchup is about 50/50, maybe a bit in favor of lands. I had some success with Cursed Totem, which basically blanks their deck.

[Patrunkenphat7]

I was playtesting today, and maverick was a much harder matchup than it seems on paper. Does anybody have any suggestions on how to beat such a deck? I was about 50-50 game one, with game 2 ranging from 1 win, 4 losses when I boarded in extirpates on top of bobs and to back to around in 50-50 when I stopped bringing in extirpate. It just seems abnormally bad for us against a deck that's pretty much fair bears with only 3 basics.

Exactly where the SB Perish's shine! :D But seriously KotR is definitely the issue here. You unfortunately need at least Pithing Needle on Knight to deal with him.

And Fuzzy, congrats with the tourney! It always feels good to beat TES, especially since they probably feel a little overconfident about the matchup. D+T is definitely a great matchup, you woulda crushed him.

[cuthbertthecat]

Exactly where the SB Perish's shine! :D But seriously KotR is definitely the issue here. You unfortunately need at least Pithing Needle on Knight to deal with him.

And Fuzzy, congrats with the tourney! It always feels good to beat TES, especially since they probably feel a little overconfident about the matchup. D+T is definitely a great matchup, you woulda crushed him.

Yeah, after more testing I've made the matchup a bit better in my favor. Doing things like porting their fetches to keep them off 3 for mindcensor to sneak a fetch/tutor in response to their fetch, etc.

Also, I played your list with a different board in a 45-man tournament yesterday, went 4-2, losing to reanimator (my deck didn't show me a tolaria west, glacial chasm, or academy ruins for bridge game one in around 30 cards) and nic fit (heavy basic manabase with ooze and thrun) and beating rock/junk, zoo sligh, reanimator, and doomsday. I've noticed that the reanimator matchup is actually quite positive for us between maze for their non-shroud fatties and chasm and bridge for the shrouded ones. On the deck itself, it feels very solid. The tops are incredible, they almost fill the role of intuition while being much less clunky.

[Phelix]

I played Lands at Grand Prix Amsterdam. (1,878 Players)

I had 0 byes and was 7-0-2 on Day one and 3-3-1 on day two. I lost the last round, had i won, i would have ended in 32 place (and won 400 dollars, yay) - instead if finished in meh position.

I love this deck, and have played this in all kinds of silly variations for the past 2 years. (Even the valakut version and the one with 14 artifacts in the sideboard)

I had originally intended to play Either High tide or UB Snapcaster, But since we figured the metagame would be Heavy with snapcasters(and team america+gw), playing combo was out - and playing snapcaster vs snapcaster would be silly grinding.

The day before the event my buddy said: "Well, now you can play our lands.dec then!" And after seeing how many decks with 0 basic lands finished in the top 16 at the last two starcity games events, so i did.

Final Changes to my previous builds was removing a maindeck Pithing needle, and cutting 3 Krosan Grip+1 Tormods Crypt from the sideboard.

Decklist:

Artifacts:
4 Mox Diamond
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Mindslaver
1 Zuran Orb
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 SmokeStack

Creatures:
1 EtherSworn Canonist

Instants:
4 Intuition

Sorceries:
4 Life from the Loam

Enchantments:
1 Manabond
4 Exploration

Lands:
1 Tabernacle at pendrell vale
1 Riftstone portal
1 Celestial Collonade
1 Academy Ruins
1 Ghost quarter
1 Karakas
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
1 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Mishras Factory
3 Tolaria West
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Maze of Ith
1 Bayou
2 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
Sideboard:
1 Crucible of Worlds (against everything that isnt combo-trades w. 1 life from loam)
1 Oblivion Stone (vs everything w. nonland permanents that isnt 0 cost artifacts)
2 Chalice of the Void (vs combo, thresh, anything w. delver of secrets, elves, burn, zoo, and more)
3 Canonist (Vs all combo, exept painter, where u just go "GG" and run)
4 Leyline of Sanctity(vs all combo, burn and zoo)(only vs zoo because utakeout:bog,æthers,karakas+bond
4 Dark Confident: Whenever u can! (not against red decks, obviously)


I lost to Elves and UR Delver of screts tempo deck + one last deck i simply forgot (very long days)

I played against Storm combo twice, and won both times. Once 2-0 (lucky maindeck canonist) and once 2-1 (losing the horrible game 1) -Due to my monster sideboard, i take in 13 cards in this matchup, becomming the beatdown player and having a quite favorable matchup post-board.

I lost to elves 2-0. Game one he plays turn 3 Emrakul through my Tabernacle, and game 2 he manually beats me down with 12 1/1 creatues. Maze of ith sucks here :()

General lucK: i completly dodged reanimator, wich is the worst mathup, due to only having bridge, bog and karakas to avoid losing - and if they reanimate a shrouded creature your hard pressed.

Possible future changes:

Crop rotation:
I think id play that. Having 5 karakas and 5 bojuka bog vs the worst matchup seem good. I might go even further and playing 1 flagstones of trokair - this also works fine with both your smokestack and your zuran orb, fetching the desired land. (But id have to test a flagstone first)

Colored Mana Sources:
A few times i was lacking colored mana, especially double blue/or even single blue for intuition/transmute. Maybe Crop rotation helps here, but id like to look for a fix. Maybe another fetchland.

Tormods Crypt(or similar effect)
Ive played this before, even maindeck for a brief period of time - And looking at the current meta having one in the sideboard is a must.

Dark Confidant in sb:
Vs combo: having the extra beats is quite nice. Drawing extra cards seem slightly less important, since u mulligan for canonist anyway, and having this guy is just gravy. You dont keep a hand without canonist in most cases.

Vs Control: Sooo awesome here. Forces them to keep in spot removal for futures games(if you didnt win game 2) and draws you a bunch of cards risk free

Vs all the tempo decks: Sucks. Pretty much.

Im still not decided on this card-and if its a 4 of. (or if playing 3 makes sense at all)

Thats my list and my thoughts.

Please let me know how you feel about the list and my comments. Thank you!

[Fuzzy]

@Phelix: Congratz on your finish! When the coverage announces that was a Land deck on Day2, I started hoping the guy crush all that 3-Color Tempo decks...

Some questions about your list: First, tell me about the Riftstone Portal, Somkestack and Colonnade, second, how do you feel about cuting Mindslaver in your deck and third, the lack of Manabonds affected you along the GP?

@Thread: I was still thinking about the Deedstill matchup and everything, so I had a question - Is Dust Bowl hot or not? If we can Transmute it, it's like Wastelocking your opponent every turn...

[Phelix]

First, tell me about the Riftstone Portal, Somkestack and Colonnade, second, how do you feel about cuting Mindslaver in your deck and third, the lack of Manabonds affected you along the GP?


Riftstone Portal:
Well as i mentioned, i often feel that i lack colored mana. Riftstone helps here. Either by being dredged, discarded by mox, sacrificed to zuran orb or to glacial chasm, wastelanded or killed w. ghost quarter.

Especially in combination w mindslaver:
When controlling the board with tabernacle and a couple of maze of ith and perhaps chasm - getting portal in the yard explosivly adds to the amount of mana you can generate - and goin from 7 to 10 mana is critical in getting active slaver. (og from 10 to 13=slaver lock)

Cutting Slaver:
I feel that slaver can be quite important. In game one its just ok. In later games it seems important to have a (reasonably fast) win condition - especiallly if your loams/wastelands are removed by surgical extraction/extirpate. At the GP i only slavered once - but having slaver without even playing it, lead to several opponents conceeding.

Manabond:
Long ago i started playing 4 bonds. Then 2. Now 1. Its probably the card i side out the most, that and Canonist+Bog. Often the cards you sideboard in, are not synergetic with bonds, leading to you resolving bonds, but not wanting to use it.

I never felt like not having bonds was bad. I do feel that in the landstill or even the mirror (gah) the ability to play more than 1 land per turn is the key to winning.

I think 1-2 bonds is fine. How do you feel about it? I think with the relative low land count (36-37) having more bonds isnt that great. When sideboarding, resolving the sideborded cards is more important than playing 4 lands on turn 1. imo.

Smokestack:
Long ago i played a lands version that had 4 smokestack in the sideboard(and trinisphere) -silly. From this i started playing one smokestack main. And its been fanastic. It kills basic lands, jaces, clears the way for attacking jace w. manlands, and locks opponents out of the game. Im a huge fan of somestack, and i keep it in against almost anything but storm combo/elves. -its just an awesome problem solver. I win alot more games with this, than with mindslaver. It also has good synergy with your entire deck, especially tabernacle.

[Antonius]

Protip: if you control another player's turn, you are allowed to look at (and takes notes of) said player's sideboard. That gets concessions pretty fast.

[Fuzzy]

Protip: if you control another player's turn, you are allowed to look at (and takes notes of) said player's sideboard. That gets concessions pretty fast.

10/1/2009: Controlling a player won't let you look at that player's sideboard under any circumstances. During a tournament, if you have that player cast a card such as Glittering Wish that lets that player choose a card with certain characteristics from outside the game, no card can be chosen.

[Antonius]

10/1/2009: Controlling a player won't let you look at that player's sideboard under any circumstances. During a tournament, if you have that player cast a card such as Glittering Wish that lets that player choose a card with certain characteristics from outside the game, no card can be chosen.

local judges have a lot of explaining to do...

[mchainmail]

10/1/2009: Controlling a player won't let you look at that player's sideboard under any circumstances. During a tournament, if you have that player cast a card such as Glittering Wish that lets that player choose a card with certain characteristics from outside the game, no card can be chosen.

This ruling is out of date. Currently, you can look at sideboards.

Congrats on going deep into day 2. How was the draw bracket? When I played in Providence, I conceded a drawn match because I didn't want to be in the draw bracket.

[Phelix]

on the ruling:

Just like there was a time when you couldnt look at your own sideboard during games, you couldnt look at your opponents with slaver. Now both is legal.

On draw bracket:

Seemed fine. Or... it gave me horrible tiebreakers, but of course having 0 byes also affected this. at the start of day two i had 54% :/

Matchup wise i think it might have helped in staistically lowering the odds of playing against combo, but this might just be speculation. I didt get paired up or down for every match but one, after being x-0-2

[Anen]

Decklist:

Artifacts:
4 Mox Diamond
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Mindslaver
1 Zuran Orb
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 SmokeStack

Creatures:
1 EtherSworn Canonist

Instants:
4 Intuition

Sorceries:
4 Life from the Loam

Enchantments:
1 Manabond
4 Exploration

Lands:
1 Tabernacle at pendrell vale
1 Riftstone portal
1 Celestial Collonade
1 Academy Ruins
1 Ghost quarter
1 Karakas
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
1 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Mishras Factory
3 Tolaria West
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Maze of Ith

Only 55 Cards here, I guess Tropical Islands are missing and ?

[Phelix]

Only 55 Cards here, I guess Tropical Islands are missing and ?

Fixed.

I played 6 Duals:
1 Bayou
2 Savannah
3 Tropical Island

total of 61 :%

[GoldenCid]

Fixed.

I played 6 Duals:
1 Bayou
2 Savannah
3 Tropical Island

total of 61 :%
got impressed by your side, no grips. How did you plan the handling of moon effects?

[Phelix]

got impressed by your side, no grips. How did you plan the handling of moon effects?

Moon is horrible for me, as is Back2Basics. But i figured id only rarely see either.

3 Decks could have moon, but realistisctly only two play it - UR and Painter.

I lose 80% to painter anyway-its only chalice+leyline to stop the combo - then i lose to random beaters under moon. -so i disregard it.(gameplan: dodge the machup :())

UR - only very few lists play it. The solutions to moon is chalice, Smokestack, Oblivion Stone and keeping them off 3 mana (doable)

I used to play 3 grips, but mainly to stop graveyard hate and counterbalance. Now everyone plays surgical extraction - and very very few play CB - so i took them out. Oblivion stone can do the trick against CB too-they usually only have 2 cc3.

I have never lost to a moon effect, ever- having had it played against me only twice. But ive lost a bunch to back to basics:/

The sideboard was built mega aggresively against combo.

The chalices come in against other stuff too, as does the Confidants.

Stone and Crucible comes in against everything that isnt (Spell based)combo. So thats ALOT.

Im quite happy with my sideboard.

If the GP was today, id probably try to play a single chalice main, alongside some crop rotation. I might cut Confidants in the board for KoTr and maybe a teeg even. I used to have Kotr in the board, but since it gets hit by yard hate i removed it. Now with surgical extraction, they only take 1 card from the yard, and knight stays big (unlike vs tormods crypt, relic and leyline)

[GoldenCid]

Thx for your complete answer. Looking agian your decklist i saw a particular "hate" to manabond. Just 1 of. Considering that it's a card that allows you to drop your hole hand and that you are running smokestack i think that 2-3 MB are good. Maybe a full set is a bit excesive because you need to set up in some way before "losing your hand".

[Phelix]

Manabond started as a 4 of, then a 2 of, then a single.

Manabond is broken on paper, but in reality, manabond means you must have loam(and no intuition) -or Academy ruins in hand also - furthermore it gets sideboarded out ALOT-since your sb cards dont have synergy with manabond.

Your right that playing 6 lands turn one, smokestack turn two, is awesome - but where did the smokestack come from then?

[GoldenCid]

Manabond started as a 4 of, then a 2 of, then a single.

Manabond is broken on paper, but in reality, manabond means you must have loam(and no intuition) -or Academy ruins in hand also - furthermore it gets sideboarded out ALOT-since your sb cards dont have synergy with manabond.

Your right that playing 6 lands turn one, smokestack turn two, is awesome - but where did the smokestack come from then?
True, but hands with five lands. + manabond + loam are not rare. These are good depending on the utility of the lands you have, to simply drop your hand and start your engine with loam in the fist few turns. With just one this is not possible and manabond just helps to lock a possible already won game.

[Phelix]

I disagree with your post.

Hands with 5 lands+loam+bonds are quite rare. Im too lazy to the math right now, but they are not common.

I do however agree that if you have such a hand, its pure awesome and will lead to win unless bond is killed (and even then your way ahead).

Also in other games drawing mana bond does not just let you win an already won game, since in many games the ability to play more lands per turn than an opponent is the key.

Either due to smokestack, porting(costs 2lands) or a race to get to 13 mana(slaver re-currrence) before losing - drawing or playing the bond later can be of great assistance.

I find the manabond to be MORE broken than exploration, on its own. But its has less synergy with your non recurring cards, especially those from the sideboard. -and you do need specific setups to get your artifacts back from the yard (assuming the yard is not removed).

I would not play 4 manabonds tomorrow, I feel like I understand your point, but id rather play the cards in playing. Id rather have 3-4 crop rotation too.

[Antonius]

I played this insanely fun list yesterday:

3 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
4 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
4 Maze of Ith
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Tolaria West
1 Tabernacle
1 Karakas
1 Ruins
1 Chasm
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Nantuko Monastery
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Horizon Canopy

4 Mox Diamond
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Zuran Orb

4 Exploration
3 Manabond

4 Loam

4 Brainstorm

3 Jace

SB--
4 SFM
1 Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull
4 KotR
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Krosan Grip

Brainstorm: Been crazy all day. its like the double nut with Manabond.

Horizon Canopy: I"m sure this is already known, but this enhances your manabond a LOT. You can now play through counters, yard hate, clique, etc.

Jace: He's insane. A lock piece that can help you find other lock pieces. Bounce your knight + port your green/whites was a sick play all day. That said, most of the unkeepable hands I had involved multiple jace. I might cut the third Jace for a top. I rarely want to see more than one per game. Slamming him down after your opponent forces a manabond or something is really, really satisfying.

The Sideboard: Not a Joke. It works. Seriously, if you just scooped it up after thirty minutes of being ported, then bring in your infi grave yard hate, how do you respond to Turn 1 SFM? Or Turn 2 Knight? There were some game 3s where people boarded their removal back in but this deck ramps to five mana easily so you can ignore removal and start manually casting batterskulls turn 3-4. Oh, and ruins getting back batterskull is dirty.

Riftstone portal: I was underwhelmed by this card all day. I might replace it with Cephalid Coliseum or Tundra. More blue sources would be good.

Krosan Grip: Didn't use it at all. I might go all-in on the man plan and replace this with Trygon Predator.

[Dark Ritual]

That list certainly does look interesting Antonius. Love the SB plan into bant beats. And zuran orb is incredibly cute with KotR when he goes unblocked you can potentially just deal them a bunch out of nowhere if you need to win or go all in (not that I like going all-in but if you think you can get there then maybe it's the right choice).

So jace and brainstorm were sweet? I've been waiting for a lands list with brainstorm for a long time and the same with jace. Well done.

[Phelix]

what is your combo gameplan there?

Maybe youd rather play 3 jace, and intuition for it?

Brainstorm is also cute - i played a version for a bit with 4 brainstorm main, and showntell/emrakull in the sideboard :wink:

[Antonius]

what is your combo gameplan there?

Get jace out really really fast?

I was able to win a G1 vs hive mind thanks Early Jace + Karakas. Fateseal and mana denial ensured he couldn't find the hive mind or mana he needed to win. Of course, I don't expect that to work often or consistently but it is a line of play that traditional lands doesn't have.

Against faster combo like storm, it's going to work even less, but I'm not too worried about trying to win games vs storm. Losing that matchup is inevitable.

Post board, you just try to clock someone with Clique + Karakas. Probably not fast enough most of the time, but it will get there some times.

I went 3-1-1 Beating Zoo, Goblins and Dredge, then losing to Painter and drawing with Hive Mind. Poor breakers pushed me down to ninth. My draw and my loss were both put on by some play errors I made.

After some more thinking, i've decided that I'm going to go
-1 Tranquil Thicket
-1 Jace
-1 Riftstone Portal
+1 Top
+1 Crucible
+1 Cephalid Coliseum

[Phelix]

seems to me you won 3 easy matchups, lost an unwinnable one, and drew a horrible matchup.

-would you consider a sindeboard/gameplan that works vs combo? how do you feel about forfitting all those matchups?

[GoldenCid]

Well another interesting flip strategy is side in natural order + progenitus with dryad arbor! :-)

[Antonius]

I actually lost game ones against Zoo and Dredge (poor mulligans and bad dredges) and against Goblins I lost a game 2 to price of progress then won game 3 on the back of a turn 1 SFM. Painter's not an unwinnable matchup. I could have won those games if it had just played things a little differently.

[Fuzzy]

I actually lost game ones against Zoo and Dredge (poor mulligans and bad dredges) and against Goblins I lost a game 2 to price of progress then won game 3 on the back of a turn 1 SFM. Painter's not an unwinnable matchup. I could have won those games if it had just played things a little differently.

The E.Tutor version can win quite easily the Painters matchup. Pithing Needle solves half the problem, Karakas the other, and Explosives is just a blowout when playing against a deck with 7 artifact lands and some moxen.

[Phelix]

imo painter and Sntell/hivemind are the worst matchups. (with a good anti combo sideboard)

painter: the 7 md blood moon effects, are the nuts against us. their combo is fast, and they can even win with beats vs our slow clock and mountains.

we can only disrupt their lands, if they dont blood moon. if we disrupt their lands, they are likely to get 3 mana anyway, with mox/guides.

SnTell: same thing, fast combo, manabase can be disrupted easier, but 3 mana wins it(1 untapped land+played tomb/city of traitors) -and we have no answer to their combo.

[Antonius]

mono red painter plays moon. I played against UR. Getting EE recursion usually beats UR. Karakas for their show and tell emrakul plan.

[Phelix]

oh- the version im referring to, made top 8 at amsterdam. no blue, no emrakul => more trouble.

[Fuzzy]

I'm fine having a bad match against a deck that no one plays or can afford because no one had Imperial Recruiters.

I'm running Post-Board 4 E.Tutors and 1 Sundial of Infinity, I'm quite cool for Hive Mind match.

[Phelix]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&start_date=2011-08-07&end_date=2011-10-30&event_ID=20&city=Kansas+City

Scg Missouri top 16 decks:
0 Combo
0 Show and Tell
1 Burn
1 Dredge
1 Zoo
1 RUG countertop
Rest: Team America, Rug, BW and Bant


Talk about a sweet top 16 for lands. dec? 0 bad matchups? (burn might be the worst one)

[Fuzzy]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&start_date=2011-08-07&end_date=2011-10-30&event_ID=20&city=Kansas+City

Scg Missouri top 16 decks:
0 Combo
0 Show and Tell
1 Burn
1 Dredge
1 Zoo
1 RUG countertop
Rest: Team America, Rug, BW and Bant


Talk about a sweet top 16 for lands. dec? 0 bad matchups? (burn might be the worst one)

I'm a little more worried about Dredge than Burn in this Top8, but still, looks an awesome enviroment for Lands.

[Loxmatii]

hello to everyone,
i would like to discuss with you my lands_dec

Lands
3 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
1 Academy Ruins
1 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Maze of Ith
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Tolaria West
1 Karakas
1 Riftstone Portal

Creatures
1 Eternal Witness
3 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells
3 Crop Rotation
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Exploration
3 Intuition
3 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
1 Worm Harvest
1 Zuran Orb


Sideboard
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Krosan Grip
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Stifle
3 Hydroblast

so. the main difference between my list and most of lists here is 4 creatures in main and 3 Crop in main. for a long time i was reading this thread and i tested different variants. but probably after the first tournament i understood, that we have no quick answers for opponent's threads. so i decided to use Crop Rotation as an ultimate answer to any threat. why do i play Knights? well, in most of games they works like Tolaria and Crop to find missing part of some combination. and they are very good win_conditions against many matches.
i believe, that combodecks like ant and tes are very bad and difficult matchups. of course all decks with Blood Moon and Price of Progress are difficult to play against too, but in this case my board often helps me.
i like stifles in board very much. this card is very unexpected in our board, so we can really surprise an opponent and his relics_crypts

in Amsterdam i played this deck. i finished first day 6-3 without byes. i lost against 2 combo decks and very good hands of GWU-zoo. i guess, that this is a good result for this deck

what do you think about it? for me it is very interesting to read your answers, because here in Moscow i am the only man, who play such decks. so nobody can hel me with discussion. i hope, you can (=

[Phelix]

Hey, we talked @Amsterdam.

I think we win the aggro+aggrocontrol matchups anyway. And most of your maindeck is better against aggro - a deck we beat even without creatures.

i do see how having more tutors is good-both crop rotation and knight.

lets talk about a knight vs Enlightened tutor plan?

both are tutors, what would we rather have and why? most important: what card helps us more in the bad matchups?

i think maybe tutors are better, since they give us 8x turns 1/2 canonist?

[Antonius]

To be honest, I'm not hot on playing dudes main deck. Seems like they just eat removal game one.

I think we should try playing Enlightened tutor or treasure hunt with Brainstorm.

[Fuzzy]

To be honest, I'm not hot on playing dudes main deck. Seems like they just eat removal game one.

I think we should try playing Enlightened tutor or treasure hunt with Brainstorm.

Maybe I'm wrong, but someone posted here the math begind T.Hunt and... Well, it's a "bad mulch".

@Eternal Garden list: 3 Loam? Get out of my thread! :tongue:

[Antonius]

Maybe I'm wrong, but someone posted here the math begind T.Hunt and... Well, it's a "bad mulch".


Brainstorm makes it pretty good.

[Phelix]

Treasure Hunt does lose to Math.

And i agree on playing dudes main. Only difference is that we must play more manlands in order to fight jace/other jace answer.

[Fuzzy]

Brainstorm makes it pretty good.

Why not run Painter and Grindstone instead? It's a 2 card combo too, except this one wins the game instead.

[Antonius]

painter and grindstone do nothign when they're not together. Brainstorm is the most powerful card in the format. Treasure hunt draws 3 cards on average which, for 1U is still a decent deal.

[Phelix]

Antionius - trolling?

[Fuzzy]

Antionius - trolling?

I was trolling about Painterstone. I don't know about him.

[mchainmail]

Maybe I'm wrong, but someone posted here the math begind T.Hunt and... Well, it's a "bad mulch".

@Eternal Garden list: 3 Loam? Get out of my thread! :tongue:

QFT, That's not lands.

Painter-Stone took a top 8 of a Vestal, NY a year or so ago, in a Lands shell. And grinding out yourself is an okay plan without Loam active.

[ReinVos]

Against Painter, I guess you need to establish an Academy Ruins as soon as possible. Bring in your Crucible of Worlds from the board. Then, when you get grinded out, you can first get rid of the combo with the EE you put back on top with Ruins, then get the Crucible in play, then stop yourself from drowning with EE while you play all your lands from the yard. Eventually you can kill him with Factories or Creeping Tar Pit.

I still have my lone Magosi, the Waterveil in the board against Hive Mind. Because I have a plan against Painter and against Tendrils decks (game one I try to tie down mana with Ports/Waste, apply some pressure with Factories and maybe get lucky finding my singleton Zuran Orb complimented by my engine, gaining me 4-6 life a turn. Chalice from board helps, as well as an extra Zuran Orb). Magosi stops his Pacts from working since he will have to pay first. I already have a maindeck Karakas to stop Emrakul. It's still tough but at least I have some kind of plan to try and stop the combo decks from steamrolling me. Maybe Hive Mind isn't played as much as it was during the MM era but it's still a powerful deck, and Lands just loses to it. Magosi improves the match-up by filling up just one sb slot (which should be devoted to combo anyway, since it's the only archetype we really lose to).

[Fuzzy]

Thanks for the Magosi tech! :wink:

[Malacoda]

Hi guys - new to MTGTheSource but not to the game or Lands. Just came over because the Lands thread in Salvation gets little to no attention at best.

I also lose to Painter Stone (Land, Combo Part 1, Land, Combo Part 2, Land?) automatically unless I hit the Academy Ruins. My current list is an E-Tutor build, and I've also got a Phyrexian Revoker in the side, which helped...once. A lot of noobish players who want to play Painter Stone but don't own Recruiters are just sleeving up extra REBs and Pyroblasts, so beware of getting everything countered or Vindicated if Painter hits. It's happened when I tried to Loam back Ruins. So close :(

Hive Mind can get pretty bad, but the Sol Lands are really vulnerable to Waste/Port, and I've held them off for quite a few turns - enough to get the singleton Karakas I MD or sometimes to get enough Moxen to pay for all their Pacts. I had the Magosi tip ReinVos showed me as well for a while, but there wasn't nearly enough HM in my meta for it and I dropped it for a more flexible board for E-Tutor.

[Antonius]

OMG MAGOSI, hahahahahahahahahahahah
ahahahahahahaha
ahahaha

That is so fucking awesome. I literally fell out of my chair laughing after I read that. I don't think hive mind can ever beat that card. They can't even thoughtseize it out of your hand. I think I would fall out of my chair laughing if I ever beat hive mind with it too.

What I found from playing against hive mind though is that if they don't combo turn 2 you can easily lock them off resources with a good draw. Of course, you've got to get the lock really tight (they never leave upkeep with so much as an untapped land) but since they don't run Lotus Petals and shit any more our mana denial strategy can beat them.

If you really want to kick painter in the balls, play Trygon Predator.

[Malacoda]

OMG MAGOSI, hahahahahahahahahahahah
ahahahahahahaha
ahahaha

That is so fucking awesome. I literally fell out of my chair laughing after I read that. I don't think hive mind can ever beat that card. They can't even thoughtseize it out of your hand. I think I would fall out of my chair laughing if I ever beat hive mind with it too.

What I found from playing against hive mind though is that if they don't combo turn 2 you can easily lock them off resources with a good draw. Of course, you've got to get the lock really tight (they never leave upkeep with so much as an untapped land) but since they don't run Lotus Petals and shit any more our mana denial strategy can beat them.

If you really want to kick painter in the balls, play Trygon Predator.

Too slow, especially since they're going to hold the combo in the hand for as long as possible unless it looks like they can t1 stone t2 painter t3 win. Not to mention you'd only want to run it as a singleton but want to draw it asap.

[Antonius]

are we still talking about UR here or Mono Red? Against mono red you're pretty screwed. Against UR, you can positively crush their manabase.

As you said, they'll hold the combo as long as possible if you have a Trygon out. But if you're squishing their manabase, then there's no way they'll get the 6 mana necessary to combo in one turn. Hell even if Trygon is the only thing you have, they'll still have a harder time getting to 6 mana out because they run artifact lands, mox opals, etc that just get munched on. If you have some kind of mana denial with Trygon then all you have to worry about is welder (tutor for crypt). Trygon also puts them on the clock.

[ESG]

so. the main difference between my list and most of lists here is 4 creatures in main and 3 Crop in main. for a long time i was reading this thread and i tested different variants. but probably after the first tournament i understood, that we have no quick answers for opponent's threads. so i decided to use Crop Rotation as an ultimate answer to any threat. why do i play Knights? well, in most of games they works like Tolaria and Crop to find missing part of some combination. and they are very good win_conditions against many matches.
i believe, that combodecks like ant and tes are very bad and difficult matchups. of course all decks with Blood Moon and Price of Progress are difficult to play against too, but in this case my board often helps me.
i like stifles in board very much. this card is very unexpected in our board, so we can really surprise an opponent and his relics_crypts

in Amsterdam i played this deck. i finished first day 6-3 without byes. i lost against 2 combo decks and very good hands of GWU-zoo. i guess, that this is a good result for this deck

what do you think about it? for me it is very interesting to read your answers, because here in Moscow i am the only man, who play such decks. so nobody can hel me with discussion. i hope, you can (=

Hi, Loxmatii. I have experience with a list like yours (this looks a lot like the Krödel's Loam list I posted about a number of pages back) and generally prefer Eternal Garden configurations to those of Lands. I post in this thread because the Eternal Garden one has been dormant forever and Lands is such a niche deck at this point that I don't see a big need for multiple Lands-based threads. Eternal Garden is probably my favorite deck to play, although it's rare when my meta isn't hostile to it, so I don't play it much these days.

For those who were amused or bemused by 3 Life From the Loam, this deck has historically favored Crucible of Worlds and Loam as the backup (and an engine when you have Crucible in place). However, there has been a lot of crossover between the two decks. This build probably best exemplifies the balance between the two (having Tolaria West, Loam, Ports, Crucible, creatures and Crop Rotation). Originally, 4 Manabond was considered the only correct way to run Lands, and, as time went on, people started running fewer of them. Enlightened Tutor and Intuition have made their way in and out of Eternal Garden lists and, more recently, they have done the same in Lands lists. Antonius has recently been suggesting Brainstorm in Lands.

Stifle is a very flexible card, and I would run it in my list if I had enough blue sources to support it. (The current list I'm running has somewhat of a different game plan.) This deck can beat storm combo, but it requires running probably a minimum of 6 hate cards. I'm a big believer in tailoring decks to beat whatever deck (or player) they need to beat, so if you could get through your other matches with less of your board, you could conceivably bring in a suite of counterspells for combo decks (and Stifle would help there). Outside-the-box thinking can pay off when your opponents expect one plan and you are on something totally different. I have had the most success with an Enlightened Tutor board plan. Mchainmail posted a list here several months ago that had a strong Enlightened Tutor plan for the storm matchup.

In general, I see the fundamental challenge to this archetype being that it can't currently answer a variety of combo threats. For instance, I'm confident we could design a Lands or Eternal Garden deck that could consistently beat TES, or could beat Painter, or could beat Reanimator, or could beat Show and Tell, but the problem is facing an open field. If you get paired up against the wrong deck, then your gamble fails to pay off. My advice is to tailor your deck to your expected meta and to not run it if there are too many unfavorable matchups in the room. And perhaps we can help in that tailoring process. What decks are you seeing regularly in Moscow?

[Fuzzy]

I'm dusting of this thread to tell everyone great news: Sunday was the Brazilian Legacy Championship, and I'm proud to say I made 6-1 and Top 8ed the event playing Bant Lands.

Later in the week I will post in a brazilian blog my tournament report (In portuguese, and because they pay me to do this - Yeah, I'm really good with this shit), and maybe translate something here.

Just a sidenote, I'm LOVING this format with lots of 3-color decks and Reanimator being a Bye for us.

[fdiv_bug]

Sunday was the Brazilian Legacy Championship, and I'm proud to say I made 6-1 and Top 8ed the event playing Bant Lands.

Later in the week I will post in a brazilian blog my tournament report (In portuguese...
I can't read Portuguese, but I can read a deck list, and I'm looking forward to seeing what you've got. :smile: `Grats on your finish!

[Fuzzy]

I can't read Portuguese, but I can read a deck list, and I'm looking forward to seeing what you've got. :smile: `Grats on your finish!

You can read everything on Internetz, they translate anything. It's more magic than the game itself!

My list was (in english, because I'm a good boy and it's close to Christmas):

4 Exploration
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
3 Intuition
2 Enlightned Tutor
2 Manabond
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Enginereed Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mindslaver (ScatmanX said I had to play it, so I did)

4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Dust Bowl
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Tolaria West
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswepth Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
1 Treetop Village

Sideboard:
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sundial of Infinity
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Zuran Orb

[Anen]

Hi everybody,


I just finished 3-4 out of 18 in a local tournament with an Eternal Garden Valakut build.

Here was my list for reference.

1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Stomping Ground
2 Volcanic Island
3 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
4 Maze of Ith
4 Rishadan Port
4 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
3 Crop Rotation
3 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
2 Scapeshift
4 Burning Wish

SB: 1 Hull Breach
SB: 1 Firespout
SB: 1 Reverent Silence
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Scapeshift


R1: The Gate 1-1
G1: Keep Scapeshift on top with Top to avoid discard, killed him turn 6 or 7.
G2: Jitte with Nighthawk connect too many times, can't find a Maze.
G3: He dropped a turn 2 Bitterblossom, and played slow as hell for the rest of the game as he extirpated my Wishes. 4 Maze and Tabernacle make his 2 Nighthawk and Jitte useless. We draw when he was at 2 life, bitterblossom in play, and completely locked, this guy don't even concede..
0-0-1

R2: Maverick 1-2
G1: I wasted him aggresivly, wich was a mistake when he dropped a big knight. Can't find a maze, qasali hits me for 14 this game..
G2: Wastelock him (1 basic in play and no mana dudes), then drop a Tabernacle -> concede.
G3: No lands for him thanks to wasteland/crucible, but no Tabernacle for me. Maze prevent Terravore (the one I traded him 2 days ago xD) from killing me a few turn, then he got a wasteland on the third card of sylvan library, scoop..
0-1-1

R3: Goblins 2-0
G1: Turn 1 Exploration, turn 2 BWish, turn 3 Firespout, turn 5 Scapeshift for the win.
G2: He kept a greedy hand, and reveals 4 lands on Ringleader.
1-1-1

R4: BW Stoneblade 2-0
G1: Some discards make me cry, but I finally found a wish for scapesift to win.
G2: Extirpated my single loam, it was fun ^^ I managed to survive with a wastelock and 4 ports. Scapeshift for 30 damages seals the deal.
2-1-1

R5: Esperblade 2-0
G1: I aggressivly wasted him, but he finally dropped a Jace. He fatesealed, put a Crucible on bottom and I draw a Crucible like a Champ ! I Immediatly killed 3 of his lands thanks to exploration, leaving him with Jace and a single basic on board. He scooped even if I had no way to kill him in hand.
G2: Loam turn 2 with no lands in the GY just to start dredging, he spell snared (wtf?).. Then wastelock him thanks to Crucible (Boseiju maked him cry :D), port his basics, he conceded rapidly.
3-1-1

Top4: Dredge 1-2
G1: I knew what this guy was playing, and cried as I didn't have any SB plan for this unexpected matchup (it was new legacy player in the area). I opened a hand with Tabernacle, and drop it like a champ turn 1. I managed to kill him with Scapeshift one turn before he could have killed me.
G2: Opened a hand with Tabernacle again ! He killed me with Zealot turn 4..
G3: Mull to 6, hand was Top, Factory, Crop Rotation, Port and 2 Intuitions. Turn 1 on the play Factory-> Top. Turn 2 Upkeep Top, found a Taiga, Crop rotation for Tabernacle. End of turn he discarded some dredgers, didn't pay the upkeep for his tribe, Breakthrough and killed me with Zealot turn 2.. Brutal ! I could have change the game if I had crop rotated for Glacial Chasm, which could have gave me enough time for Intuition into Tabernacle, thats how I misplayed..
I went home with a Snapcaster Chinese.


I expected more Jace.deck, as Needle in the SB is for them, but I crush my teeth on an unexpected matchup. I am going to put some Bogs in the 75 for sure.

What do you guys thinks of the Scapeshift/Valakut kill? I searched the thread a little bit but cant found any relevant answers.

[ESG]

I just finished 3-4 out of 18 in a local tournament with an Eternal Garden Valakut build.

Judging by your report, you went 3-1-1, then lost in Top 4.

I don't know what the rest of the board looked like, but you're probably pretty fortunate your Round 5 opponent scooped to you with an active Jace on the table. Unless you had the means to kill it right away, there's no way he should have scooped. Jace kills Lands all the time.

I believe the consensus on Scapeshift and Valakut was that it wasn't as good as running blue and Tolari West. If you go back to Page 30, that's where some of the discussion transpires. Antonius ran Valakut and Vesuva as an extra win con but wasn't on board with Scapeshift. Tao was a fan of G/R configurations, as I recall.

Anyway, congrats. The odds are pretty stacked against Lands, regardless of the build, so it's nice to see someone place.

[Beatusnox]

I really want to start building this deck and playing it. I have a copy on Cockatrice atm, but with my feeble internet connection I can't test against many opponents, so its hard to learn as its not really a goldfishable deck. =/ Any advice in this respect?

[sdematt]

Proxy it up, goldfish the hell out of it, or get someone to play against you.

-Matt

[Beatusnox]

Proxy it up, goldfish the hell out of it, or get someone to play against you.

-Matt

The only issue i have found with this is that its a very reactive deck, and it hard to goldfish reactively. So far ive been creating scenarios to play through in order to try to learn lines of play.

[Antonius]

Beaux, I still have lands and you can use it on sunday if you want. You just need to get your own mox diamonds. Oh, I only have two intuitions right now. Forgot about that. You could play the brainstorm build I was testing last month. It was pretty powerful.

[Beatusnox]

i think you have me confused with someone else =/ though i appreciate the offer lol.

But yeah so far im liking how it is playing out. Though I am unsure about my list overall as i havent been able to fully test it.


// Not lands:23
4 Mox Diamond
4 Life from the loam
4 Exploration
3 Intuition
2 Enlightened tutor
2 Manabond
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mindslaver

// Lands:37
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadian Port
4 Maze of Ith
3 Tropical Island
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Savannah
2 Nantuko Monastery
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial chasm
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Misty Rainforest
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Treetop Village
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills


some explainations:
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
To also allow to activate tar pits and let mazes tap for mana if absolutely needed.
(does this unbasic lands?)
phone out of room. I will edit in more explainations soon.

[ESG]

some explainations:
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Used to Unbasic my opponents lands

As far as I know, that doesn't work. They're still basic lands; they just can produce black mana now.

[Beatusnox]

As far as I know, that doesn't work. They're still basic lands; they just can produce black mana now.

I may be wrong which happens enough lol, I just thought that a basic land was either a swamp, island, mountain, forest or plains. And becoming more than one of them would make it non-basic.

[somethingdotdotdot]

I'm pretty sure what happens is that the basic lands keep the supertype basic since nothing can change that supertype (blood moon'd nonbasics are still non basic i believe). However, all lands just gain another land type (swamp) and can now produce black mana.

[Serbitar]

Basic lands obviously stay basic under Urborg .... :eyebrow: (which would be sweet otherwise though)

[Beatusnox]

wishful thinking doesnt always work =( either way it lets maze of ith, tabernacle, and glacial chasm tap for mana, which is nice. Would like to hear opinions on the list.

[Serbitar]

Yeah, tapping Tabernacle for mana feels like cheating. Running Urborg/Riftstone Portal makes the Mindslaver plan much better - though I am still no fan.

As your spells are the same as suggested above, I mainly have some comments on your land configuration:


i
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadian Port
4 Maze of Ith
3 Tropical Island
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Savannah
2 Nantuko Monastery
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial chasm
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Misty Rainforest
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Treetop Village
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
[/cards]


First, there needs to be a 4th Port. The manadenial plan usually is this decks go-to-strategy for winning and Port is very good at that.
Second, I don't like the configuration of man lands. Creeping Tar Pit is awesome, but without mana to activate it besides Mox/Urborg/Bog looks very sketchy. If you are Bant I'd suggest a Celestial Colonnade to attack over clogged boards or at Jaces. It is a lot worse, sure, but I wouldn't feel comfortable with that manabase. I also dislike Nantuko Monastery. In the early game it only has disadvantages to Factory and in the late game it has no substantial upside - despite 4/4 first strike it is still unable to attack through any clogged board. I get that Treetop Village taps for green but this is somewhat offset by coming into play tapped. The dude itself (3/3 trample) again has virtually no upside to Factory.

[Thus I would suggest: -Treetop, -2 Monastery, -2 Tar Pit, + Port, + Colonnade, +3 Factory]

[GoldenCid]

Yeah, tapping Tabernacle for mana feels like cheating. Running Urborg/Riftstone Portal makes the Mindslaver plan much better - though I am still no fan.

In my experience, urborg made always thing easier to me. Makes mazes, chasm and tnacle, at worst, mana sources when they become dead cards. More over, it allows us to run Worm Harvest and Creeping Tar Pit as win cond. Maybe it's subpar but...



First, there needs to be a 4th Port. The manadenial plan usually is this decks go-to-strategy for winning and Port is very good at that.


Very agreed.

[Fuzzy]

I think I'm missing something important here. People are sugesting running a bad card to make other 6 cards (Glacial Chasm is awful but necessary, the others are pretty good) to just... ADD MANA?

Yeah, my Monolands Control deck is really missing some mana sources...

[ESG]

I think I'm missing something important here. People are sugesting running a bad card to make other 6 cards (Glacial Chasm is awful but necessary, the others are pretty good) to just... ADD MANA?

Yeah, my Monolands Control deck is really missing some mana sources...

Urborg, like Riftstone Portal, is an underappreciated card. Lands requires a lot of mana each turn if you're locking someone down with Ports and replaying Loam and cycling, or if you're activating manlands, or if you're trasmuting Tolaria West, or if you're playing Worm Harvest, or if you're playing Mindslaver. Just because you have a lot of lands in your deck doesn't mean you can't be mana-screwed or color-screwed.

[Fuzzy]

Urborg, like Riftstone Portal, is an underappreciated card. Lands requires a lot of mana each turn if you're locking someone down with Ports and replaying Loam and cycling, or if you're activating manlands, or if you're trasmuting Tolaria West, or if you're playing Worm Harvest, or if you're playing Mindslaver. Just because you have a lot of lands in your deck doesn't mean you can't be mana-screwed or color-screwed.

Yeah, I know. But if you're locking down people with Ports and playing multiple Loams and is in a stage where you don't need your Mazes, why don't you bring back some other lands instead your 6 lands that don't add mana instead?

When you're activating manlands or playing Mindslaver or the garbage that is Worm Harvest, you are already winning. You should just wait until you found another land and then do it all. It's only aceptable if the time is short, mas STILL is a bad card to run in any other case.

Transmute Tolaria West? Tapping one of the non-mana producers, counting that your ONE Urborg in play, only to get one extra mana? And Urborg adds black mana, not blue... Can't understand that...
(GOD FORBID YOU TO WASTE A TOLARIA WEST FETCHING SUCH A BAD CARD)

Also, Urborg makes you opponent fetchlands tapping for mana. Just saying.

I can't remember last time I was mana-screwed, but the color problem I've found a great solution: CUT BLACK.

[ESG]

When you're activating manlands or playing Mindslaver or the garbage that is Worm Harvest, you are already winning.

Of course, if you are short on mana, regardless of how many lands you have in play, you aren't going to get to that stage as quickly, and maybe you won't get there at all. So, in other words, you won't be activating manlands or playing Mindslaver or playing Worm Harvest. In my experience, having lands that allow you to turn on your Mazes, Chasm and Tabernacle is essential, whether that's Riftstone Portal or Urborg, or a combination of the two. You seem to disagree. To each his own, I guess.

[Fuzzy]

Of course, if you are short on mana, regardless of how many lands you have in play, you aren't going to get to that stage as quickly, and maybe you won't get there at all. So, in other words, you won't be activating manlands or playing Mindslaver or playing Worm Harvest. In my experience, having lands that allow you to turn on your Mazes, Chasm and Tabernacle is essential, whether that's Riftstone Portal or Urborg, or a combination of the two. You seem to disagree. To each his own, I guess.

I'm just in no hurry to win. I can just stall the game and finish the job in turn 40.

[GoldenCid]

I'm just in no hurry to win. I can just stall the game and finish the job in turn 40.

And what real benefit do you get from that? You loose game 1, you loose the round!

[Fuzzy]

And what real benefit do you get from that? You loose game 1, you loose the round!

The real benefit is doing all this on Game 1, so I don't have to worry about losing. Also, I still can play Mindslaver about two turns after any player running bad cards, and with no hurry because while they play a bad swamp, I play one more lock piece.

Anyway, don't waste e-ink trying to convince me use Urborg or Riftstone Portal. I don't have any flex slot to waste with any of those, and even if I had, I would just play more Tranquil Thickets.

[GoldenCid]

Well, if can give us your list with some tips for an unlooseable G1, i would be graceful.

[Fuzzy]

Well, if can give us your list with some tips for an unlooseable G1, i would be graceful.

Already posted in the last page. I don't know about you, but I can't see myself losing to anything besides some form of combo, that's why I believe this deck is so well positioned in today's meta. Well, I'm having some trouble with Vial Aggro, but I wanna believe it's because I sux at Magic the Gathering.

[Beatusnox]

New list without Urborg, but with portal

//Lands
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Tolaria West
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Academy Ruins
2 Nantuko Monastery
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Riftstone Portal
1 Celestial Colonnade

// Not Lands
4 Exploration
2 Manabond
4 Mox Diamond
3 Intuition
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mindslaver
4 Life from the Loam

[antipode3141592]

So, I decided to revive my Lands deck for a small tournament tonight and had a really interesting thought: why not replace Mishra's Factory with Inkmoth Nexus and Kessig Wolf Run? My ratio tonight was 4x nexus and 1x wolf run, and they were great. The flying is super relevant, and being able to just tap out an win vastly speeds up the clock of the deck.

I haven't put ANY testing into this idea, just threw it together an hour before the four-round tournament, so it could be garbage. Anyone else tried this out?

[Beatusnox]

So, I decided to revive my Lands deck for a small tournament tonight and had a really interesting thought: why not replace Mishra's Factory with Inkmoth Nexus and Kessig Wolf Run? My ratio tonight was 4x nexus and 1x wolf run, and they were great. The flying is super relevant, and being able to just tap out an win vastly speeds up the clock of the deck.

I haven't put ANY testing into this idea, just threw it together an hour before the four-round tournament, so it could be garbage. Anyone else tried this out?


How did the tournament go? I would love to hear your experience with it.

[nolink]

would like to know anyone had tried cursed scroll as a 1 or 2 of before?

[Fuzzy]

I was thinking about Inkmoth, but it's worse in aggro matchups and the lifeloss is quite relevante versus Ad Nauseam. I don't know if I like it.

[Sloshthedark]

Already posted in the last page. I don't know about you, but I can't see myself losing to anything besides some form of combo, that's why I believe this deck is so well positioned in today's meta. Well, I'm having some trouble with Vial Aggro, but I wanna believe it's because I sux at Magic the Gathering.

really? my opinion is the deck is dead actually... the number of Surgical extractions played - now with Snapcaster and frequent use of V. Cliques... I can't imagine Lands to have actual tournament success other than by weird coincidence

[Vandalize]

really? my opinion is the deck is dead actually... the number of Surgical extractions played - now with Snapcaster and frequent use of V. Cliques... I can't imagine Lands to have actual tournament success other than by weird coincidence

Hmm, has anyone tried Ground Seal? I mean, it can protect the deck quite nice, while drawing once.

[Spastic Bovine]

Ground Seal shuts off our Loams bro, I've been having a lot of success with Chalice of the Void again vs decks like that. I never used to play with it but they made their way back into my SB and I love em. Also, I tried Knight of the Reliquary in the side, and MAN is it insane g2 when they board out a bunch of their removal

[Fuzzy]

really? my opinion is the deck is dead actually... the number of Surgical extractions played - now with Snapcaster and frequent use of V. Cliques... I can't imagine Lands to have actual tournament success other than by weird coincidence

Graveyard hate was always present, and the hate of choice for everyone is just a bad Extirpate. I run 1 CotV in my sb with 7 ways to tutor for him, and against any deck who is suposed to run Surgical you should go to the Crucible plan. Also, Tranquil Thicket is gold except they have the second Surgical, so maybe I will try raising the count for 3 next time.

If you cut the 3 mana needed to Clique, you still can dredge Loam. But if you can't, your opponent can't tap out to play anything. If both players are doing nothing, you are already winning.

I don't know your meta, but what I see is lots of 3-color decks being the biggest parts of the Tier 1. I can imagine myself beating anything in the DtB section except for ANT, and some guys who follow this thread could back me up on this.

But you play some decks that lose to blue cards or artifact hate, who knows...

[antipode3141592]

My tournament results are essentially meaningless, as it was only four rounds, with 10 people, and the players weren't very strong (I faced Bant Tempo, Reanimator, Belcher, and Infect). Anyway, with that in mind, I discovered the following things about Inkmoth/Wolfrun:

1) having a flyer was handy against the various fatties Reanimator has access too
2) the threat of -1/-1 counters helped buy times against small creatures like Noble Heirarch and Stoneforge Mystic (kept small by blowing up their white sources)
3) I was able to actually finish three games in a round!? seriously, only needing one or two turns to kill as opposed to 10+ turns (with Factories, Barbarian Ring, Cursed Scroll, or Mindslaver) was amazing. The biggest drawback to this deck is that it takes FOREVER to win sometimes, and this innovation does a lot to fix that.

I needed to run one more red dual (I had only Taiga, Volcanic Island and Mox Diamonds as red sources) to more reliably hit the red requirement for Kessig Wolf Run. I also figure that 4x Inkmoth/1x Wolf Run is probably the right ratio, as you don't ever want to see more than one Wolf Run.

I ran 3x Crucible of Worlds in the maindeck as well as 3x Tranquil Thicket, expecting maindeck graveyard hate (specifically Surgical Extraction or Extirpate)... which I didn't come across. But trying your best to always have a Tranquil Thicket in hand against decks that might have Extraction/Extirpate does a lot to help your chances. I couldn't find my Chalice of the Voids so I missed those severely...

At any rate, I need to test this a bunch, but won't really have any time to do so until January. Hopefully one or more of you will be able to do some testing?

@Fuzzy, those are totally relevant points. But if you don't like Inkmoth, what about just adding the 1x Kessig Wolf Run? Having an activated factory smash in for +(X-5)/+0 (X is the number of your mana sources) as opposed to just 2 or 3 a turn would also be a much faster clock. Thoughts?

[Fuzzy]

@Fuzzy, those are totally relevant points. But if you don't like Inkmoth, what about just adding the 1x Kessig Wolf Run? Having an activated factory smash in for +(X-5)/+0 (X is the number of your mana sources) as opposed to just 2 or 3 a turn would also be a much faster clock. Thoughts?

I don't like using red sources in this deck or useless lands by itself. Call me crazy, but maybe Sigil of Distinction would be better in this spot with Inkmoth Nexus, and Chimeric Mass better if you can just swing a few times. In any case, I wouldn't play anything except 3 Factorys and 1 Slaver - And I hate Mindslaver, I would kill for a better wincon.

But some people here are against this line of thought (No worry to win, just play fast and with good cards), so that's only my personal opinion.

[thefreakaccident]

I've been thinking about this a lot, and this thread needs a serious necro...

3 cards that should probably all be considered:

Treasure hunt-- running 40+ lands, seems solid, with cards like manabond/ reliquary tower at your disposal, there are many ways to break this card.

Seismic assault-- with this on the table, a resolved treasure hunt can end the game.

Reliquary tower-- it allows us to multi-dredge loam for huge hands in the mid-late game, and can provide large hands via treasure hunt.


I also think that people need to up the barbarian ring/cephalid coliseum counts, I would want at least 1 of each in my build, and probably 2 of the coliseum.

[Sloshthedark]

Graveyard hate was always present, and the hate of choice for everyone is just a bad Extirpate. I run 1 CotV in my sb with 7 ways to tutor for him, and against any deck who is suposed to run Surgical you should go to the Crucible plan. Also, Tranquil Thicket is gold except they have the second Surgical, so maybe I will try raising the count for 3 next time.

If you cut the 3 mana needed to Clique, you still can dredge Loam. But if you can't, your opponent can't tap out to play anything. If both players are doing nothing, you are already winning.

I don't know your meta, but what I see is lots of 3-color decks being the biggest parts of the Tier 1. I can imagine myself beating anything in the DtB section except for ANT, and some guys who follow this thread could back me up on this.

But you play some decks that lose to blue cards or artifact hate, who knows...

I played the deck quite a lot, I know to play around hate, i know i can win without loam, the thing is you don't know whether they play the bad extirpate, and they snap-recur it half time they do and Chalice has to resolve first... I had no problem playing with ANT it and was around 50/50 lifetime, beating them was fun =)

I mean you can't just play around everything all the time... I take Lands as the hardest deck possible one can choose for a tournament and it simply has passed the threshold when playing it competitively is enjoyable for me

[Malacoda]

I've been thinking about this a lot, and this thread needs a serious necro...

3 cards that should probably all be considered:

Treasure hunt-- running 40+ lands, seems solid, with cards like manabond/ reliquary tower at your disposal, there are many ways to break this card.

Seismic assault-- with this on the table, a resolved treasure hunt can end the game.

Reliquary tower-- it allows us to multi-dredge loam for huge hands in the mid-late game, and can provide large hands via treasure hunt.


I also think that people need to up the barbarian ring/cephalid coliseum counts, I would want at least 1 of each in my build, and probably 2 of the coliseum.

Treasure Hunt is cool, but it's been determined pretty intensely that you really want to run as few nonartifact, nonland spells as possible in this deck, and Treasure Hunt would really be win-more a lot of the time.

Seismic Assault is a phenomenal card. In a different Loam deck. I haven't seen a competitive Lands deck run red in quite some time, and the triple cost is ridiculously prohibitive.

Reliquary Tower is win-more. If you've already developed the capability to multi-Dredge Loam in a turn, you probably don't need to do much more because you can mostly just dump your hand and draw a ton of cards thanks to Manabond/Exploration/Crucible/whatever. Plus, we really don't need to add any more colorless lands to the mix.

I agree with Fuzzy. Surgical Extraction is just a worse Extirpate, which, while damaging, is by no means a game-ender. The meta seems really good for the deck right now IMO.

[Spidyh20]

Hey guys, been awhile since I've been on this thread. I to think this is a prime time to put lands into action. I plan on doing just that this Sunday in ATL. I've been going over some of the current list's and I can see how they've changed since I've last played this deck. I just have a few questions as to why.

1.) When did we start playing only 2 Manabonds and 4 Diamonds?

2.) Do we no longer run the Smokestack variant in our sides?

3.) I've debated running the Inkmoth/Kessig wolf run in my build and during play testing it has allowed the deck to get a quicker kill. Thoughts?

My current build:

4-Exploration
4-Manabond
4-Life from the Loam
3-Intuition
3-Mox Diamond
1-Ensaring Bridge
1-Engineered Explosives
1-Zuran Orb
1-Crucible of Worlds

3-Tranquil Thicket
1-Horizon Canopy
3-Tolaria West
4-Rishidan Port
4-Maze of Ith
4-Wasteland
1-Ghost Quarter
3-Tropical Island
1-Taiga
1-Forest
1-Misty Rainforest
1-Wooded Foothills
1-Windswept heath
1-Verdant Catacombs
1-The Tabernacle @ Pen Vale
1-Glacial Chasm
1-Academy Ruins
1-Karakas
1-Riftstone Portal
1-Inkmoth Nexus
1-Mishra's Factory
1-Kessig Wolf Run
1-Barbarian Ring

Thoughts and comments please. Thanks!

[Malacoda]

I've always been running 4 Diamonds. I don't need the full set of Manabonds with E-Tutor. And I've never felt the need for a "quicker kill," and definitely not enough to dilute the manabase with crappy red sources.

I just went 4-0 at a local tournament at Channel Fireball/Superstars running the following list:

Spells (24)
4x Exploration
4x Life from the Loam
4x Mox Diamond
3x Enlightened Tutor
2x Manabond
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Intuition
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Zuran Orb

Lands (36)
4x Maze of Ith
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
3x Tropical Island
3x Tolaria West
2x Tranquil Thicket
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Academy Ruins
1x Bayou
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Savannah
1x Mishra's Factory
1x Forest
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Karakas
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Cabal Pit

Sideboard (15)
4x Dark Confidant
2x Krosan Grip
2x Extirpate
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Smokestack
1x Tower of the Magistrate
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Circle of Protection: Red
1x Phyrexian Revoker

I moved Smokestack to the side because I'm a) expecting a lot of combo decks when I go to play in SCG Los Angeles next weekend and b) because it hasn't been that necessary to have a finisher artifact maindeck. I moved Chalice of the Void main instead to test for tonight.

Tournament Report:

Match 1: Merfolk
Game 1 I get off to a phenomenal start with Exploration into Loam and some combination of fetches, Port, and Loam. I lay down a Maze of Ith and start the engine going, stalling him out pretty well. Unfortunately, the deck decides to crap out of me and I dig through 30 cards without seeing a single Thicket, Canopy, Tolaria, or another Maze, and 2 Rejeereys + 1 Lord of Atlantis beat down for exactly lethal. Game 2 he opens with Leyline of the Void, which I was not expecting in the slightest. I try my best to develop under it and end up with a Maze and an Explosives for 2, which I pop. I eventually resolve Ensnaring Bridge and he scoops. Game 3 I board in Krosan Grip for Leyline. I keep an awful hand of something like Crucible, Explosives, 2 duals, 2 Enlightened Tutor, and I draw into a third Enlightened Tutor. Things are looking pretty bad until I somehow stick Zuran Orb and E-Bridge. He claims he has an answer, so we play it out. I slowly play lands and gain back life; he can't attack. I eventually topdeck a K-Grip and blow up the Leyline and get the engine going. Turns out his answer was just Energy Flux anyway, haha.
(2-1) 1-0

Match 2: ANT
I'm a little less worried because I've been trying the maindeck Chalice, but it's still a bad matchup. I open a good hand without an E-Tutor, Tolaria, or Chalice, and start going. I hit E-Tutor on turn 3 and slam Chalice the same turn thanks to Tranquil Thicket. But it's no good, and she starts chaining Cabal Rituals and Iggy and kills me pretty easy. Game 2 I open a hand with both the sideboarded Canonist and Chalice, so I'm pretty confident, but she thinks she has a way to pull it off. I end up having completely useless topdecks under Chalice (2 Exploration, 2 E-Tutor) and she Slaughter Pacts the Canonist at 3 life. It's ok though, because I lay down the freshly topdecked Dark Confidant and beat in for the win. Game 3 I have a pretty bad hand again, but I eventually keep her off enough mana thanks to Waste and get a good clock of Canonist + Confidant going. I Tolaria West for Tormod's Crypt the turn before she's going to be able to go off if she kills Canonist again and nuke her graveyard to stop Iggy and Cabal Ritual from doing anything, and she scoops.
(2-1) 2-0

Match 3: Steel Aggro
It's a weird homebrew consisting of Dark Confidant, Vendilion Clique, Stoneforge, Etched Champion, Master of Etherium, Aether Vial, artifact lands, and a Port + Wasteland + Crucible engine of its own. Game 1 I just develop too fast with 2 Mazes and a lot of recurring Wastes and he can't play anything. Game 2, he gets going really fast and Extirpates Loam right at the right point. I get overwhelmed by 2 Bobs, 2 Etched Champion, and a Clique right before he kills himself with Bobs. Game 3 I stick a T2 Revoker naming Tormod's Crypt and proceed to kill him with that and a Bob - he drew into his full set of Crypts and almost no creature threats.
(2-1) 3-0

Match 4: Affinity
He clearly has no idea what I'm playing. I lay down an early Ensnaring Bridge after taking next to no damage and then have Tabernacle eat his entire team of 10+ guys. He tries to play it out because he doesn't understand what I'm doing so I eventually just Tar Pit him to death. Game 2 He tries to mull into Leyline and ends up going down to 4 cards without seeing one. I lead Manabond -> Loam + Chasm lock, and since he's Affinity, he loses.
(2-0) 4-0

I was pretty happy with how the deck performed, though I was expecting a lot more tempo-based builds. I had to get out of some really sticky spots and the deck did pretty much everything I wanted it to :)

[antipode3141592]

So, I played in a small, 11 person tournament on Saturday (January 7th) and pretty much got destroyed by two decks: a) Bant with Snapcaster + Surgical Extraction (though I definitely could have played around the extration had I not been an idiot) and Knight of the Reliquary + Wasteland, b) U/W splash black pure control (tons of hard counters and mass removal that he sided out for enchantment removal and Surgical Extraction.

I definitely learned a hard lesson in playing around Surgical Extraction, though I now know how to play against it, so I think I'll be fine in the future (though I really like the idea of siding out Loam + Tranquil Thicket for Crucibles and Chalice of the Void against Snapcaster decks).

At any rate, the one card that completely dominated me in both decks was Jace, The Mind Sculptor. If they are able to get to four mana and resolve a Jace, is there anything that we can do to fight it? I tried recurring Engineered Explosives every turn with Academy Ruins, only to have it countered time and time again with the help of his infinite Brainstorming (until he was able to draw Surgical Extraction and put the kabosh on that), and it's hard for a Mishra's Factory to get through any creatures and Inkmoth Nexus can't keep up with the +2 fateseal ability. Thoughts?

[azador]

So, I played in a small, 11 person tournament on Saturday (January 7th) and pretty much got destroyed by two decks: a) Bant with Snapcaster + Surgical Extraction (though I definitely could have played around the extration had I not been an idiot) and Knight of the Reliquary + Wasteland, b) U/W splash black pure control (tons of hard counters and mass removal that he sided out for enchantment removal and Surgical Extraction.

I definitely learned a hard lesson in playing around Surgical Extraction, though I now know how to play against it, so I think I'll be fine in the future (though I really like the idea of siding out Loam + Tranquil Thicket for Crucibles and Chalice of the Void against Snapcaster decks).

At any rate, the one card that completely dominated me in both decks was Jace, The Mind Sculptor. If they are able to get to four mana and resolve a Jace, is there anything that we can do to fight it? I
tried recurring Engineered Explosives every turn with Academy Ruins, only to have it countered time and time again with the help of his infinite Brainstorming (until he was able to draw Surgical Extraction and put the kabosh on that), and it's hard for a Mishra's Factory to get through any creatures and Inkmoth Nexus can't keep up with the +2 fateseal ability. Thoughts?

Jace is the biggest reason I gave up on this deck about 6 months ago. The best thing I had to fight him was play creeping tar pit and barbarian ring maindeck(splashing red just odd mox). And purging need +second E.E. post board. I was playing with no factories and with MD smokestack. Even then It wad pretty tough without having intuition resolve with the jace on the stack.

[cuthbertthecat]

So, I played in a small, 11 person tournament on Saturday (January 7th) and pretty much got destroyed by two decks: a) Bant with Snapcaster + Surgical Extraction (though I definitely could have played around the extration had I not been an idiot) and Knight of the Reliquary + Wasteland, b) U/W splash black pure control (tons of hard counters and mass removal that he sided out for enchantment removal and Surgical Extraction.

I definitely learned a hard lesson in playing around Surgical Extraction, though I now know how to play against it, so I think I'll be fine in the future (though I really like the idea of siding out Loam + Tranquil Thicket for Crucibles and Chalice of the Void against Snapcaster decks).

At any rate, the one card that completely dominated me in both decks was Jace, The Mind Sculptor. If they are able to get to four mana and resolve a Jace, is there anything that we can do to fight it? I tried recurring Engineered Explosives every turn with Academy Ruins, only to have it countered time and time again with the help of his infinite Brainstorming (until he was able to draw Surgical Extraction and put the kabosh on that), and it's hard for a Mishra's Factory to get through any creatures and Inkmoth Nexus can't keep up with the +2 fateseal ability. Thoughts?

Creeping tar pit and celestial colonnade both do what you want against jace. Although ,the problem of snapcaster+surgical is much harder to deal with. The last event I played this deck in, I was surgicaled 5 times in one game against U/W because of snapcaster.

[antipode3141592]

Creeping Tarpit does seem like a solid solution. I was trying out the Inkmoth Nexus + Kessig Wolfrun idea and it has been solid against everything BUT JTMS. I should have included a Creeping Tarpit in my 75 for sure (especially because I was running 3x Crop Rotation like the classic build). I'll give that a try this weekend.

Surgical Extraction can be a beating, for sure. I ran one maindeck Chalice of the Void, but never seemed to be able to nab it in time with Tolaria West. Perhaps I'll drop the 3x Crop Rotations for 3x Enlightened Tutor.

Also, has anybody ever tried Gifts Ungiven in this deck before?

[Fuzzy]

For Jace, I think Treetop Village is good enough to kill him. It's like Tar Pit, but provides green. I know, I know, Batterskull in UWx Control is bad for this plan, but If he manages to set both and still had the Surgical for Explosives AND the counter for Pithing Needle, well, you would lose anyway. If it's still the first game, EE lock eventually will get there. It's not the greaaaat scenario ever, but there some solutions.

For Gifts, yes: It's just a worse Intuition. Don't waste your time.

[Malacoda]

Time for my tournament report from Star City Games: Los Angeles. I ran this list:

Spells(24)
4x Exploration
4x Life from the Loam
4x Mox Diamond
3x Enlightened Tutor
2x Manabond
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Smokestack
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Zuran Orb

Lands(37)
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
3x Tropical Island
3x Maze of Ith
3x Tolaria West
2x Tranquil Thicket
2x Mishra's Factory
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Academy Ruins
1x Bayou
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Savannah
1x Forest
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Karakas
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Cabal Pit

Sideboard(15)
4x Dark Confidant
2x Krosan Grip
2x Extirpate
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Tower of the Magistrate
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Circle of Protection: Red
1x Phyrexian Revoker

After testing with Chalice of the Void maindeck in place of Smokestack, I decided to switch it back to the original configuration due to the fact that Chalice is an abominable topdeck. This ended up being the right choice. A second Top replaced the singleton Intuition, as I was rarely drawing it anyway, and Top helps with Snapcaster + Surgical Extraction. Anyways, on to the report.

Match 1 - T.E.S vs. Liam Kane

Game 1, he opens with Underground Sea and passes. I have a hand with Loam but no accelerant, so I Waste his Sea and pass. I don't know what he's playing. He goes Volcanic Island, Ponder, go. I'm expecting a tempo hybrid or Storm at this point. I draw Exploration, drop it, and drop a pair of Lands including Port. He drops Gemstone Mine, and I know I'm fighting a losing battle. I try to keep mana denial up, but he draws into enough lands to storm me for millions with Past In Flames as well as Ad Nauseam. Game 2, I board in:

4 Dark Confidant
2 Extirpate
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Engineered Explosives

In other words, a metric fuckton of hate. It gets the job done, and he scoops under the back of Canonist, Chalice for 0, and recurring Wastes. Game 3 I mull to 6 and keep a hand with Bob and Tolaria West. I start applying pressure and manage to get him down a little bit before he starts going off - I wasn't able to lay down Chalice. He chains Rituals and Burning Wishes into Diminishing Returns....and whiffs. I have a couple more turns to answer him. My new hand gave me an E-Tutor, Manabond, Crypt, Extirpate, and 3 lands, but his Duresses rip away the Manabond and Tutor. I lay down Chalice for 0 and the Bob I just topdecked. He Ad Nauseams on his turn and goes to 5 life after drawing Chain of Vapor, the one card he needed. He Chains my Chalice and leads triple Dark Ritual into triple LED. I manage to Extirpate Infernal Tutor after he resolves it, but it's no use - the Burning Wish in his hand is going to stay there, and he's got a second Tendrils main. He storms me for 22. Turns out he's the best Storm player on the West Coast. Oh well - at least I was close, and lost against an already bad matchup.

(1-2) 0-1

Match 2 - UW Stoneblade

Game 1 I keep a promising hand and mana deny him for a while, but he's got tons and tons of counters for my recurring Loams and manages to resolve a Jace. I dig for Explosives, but he counters it and sticks an Elspeth, and I can't do anything about it. Game 2 he mulls twice and I stick Revoker naming Jace early before drawing into Bob, and he loses to two Wastes a turn even though he's got a Crucible. Game 3 he opens with Leyline. So that's why he mulled twice G2. Why are all the off-color decks running Leyline now? I know I can win through Leyline, but he boarded his removal back in, and Bob and Revoker eat it early. I have a Top, but he Extractions Wasteland and then resolves a Crucible, and he's got a Wasteland under it. I'm trying to dig for Bojuka Bog but I'm hitting nothing, and by the time he resolves Jace, I can't do anything about it. Talk about hate.

(1-2) 0-2

Match 3 - UW Stoneblade #2

So I'm officially in the bad bracket, but I'm trying to keep my head about me. And I proceed to beat the crap out of my next opponent. Game 1 I lead Manabond -> Wastelands and Ports and topdeck Loam the next turn. He's color screwed anyway and I barely see any of his deck before he scoops under a Ghost Quarter lock. Game 2 I'm doing more of the same, but he manages to Surgical both Wasteland and Loam, so I can't stop him from drawing all his lands. Tabernacle and triple Maze stop him from dealing any damage, but he exiled Revoker with Swords and I'm not drawing any Dark Confidants, so the game is taking forever. O-Rings eat Smokestack and Exploration. He sticks a Jace and gets it to 13. I have Tar Pit, but he's got white open and I have no more Wastes so I'm afraid of it getting exiled. I manage to MISE Engineered Explosives and stick it though, and the game ends soon after, as I blow it up at 4 and then at 3 to get my accelerant and Smokestack back. I wouldn't have lost anyways though, because I had Academy Ruins out and a Mox Diamond in my yard. Turns out my Bobs were all in the bottom 7 cards of my library.

(2-0) 1-2

Match 4 - UW Stoneblade #3 (WOO)

This one plays out similarly to the last one. He loses under recurring Wastes game 1 and under Bob beats 1 and 2. Batterskulls resolve, but Jaces die and eventually, Batterskull tokens do as well.

(2-0) 2-2

Match 4 - UWR Stoneblade

At this point, I'm just bored of playing Stoneblade matches, so I'm kind of aggravated when my opponent leads Flooded Strand, go. I deny his mana pretty heavily, but I've only got an accelerant - no Loam - and when I finally do hit it, he's got counters for every time, and I die to Clique and Snapcaster beats because he can pay for Tabernacle and I only have 2 Mazes. Game 2 I board in the usual Stoneblade package (4 Dark Confidant, 1 Phyrexian Revoker, 1 Tower of the Magistrate, 2 Extirpate) plus COP: Red because I saw Grim Lavamancer. It starts well, but I Extirpate his Tundras and see a hand with FOUR Force of Wills. He counters all my Loams, and then starts pissing me off. If my next Loam resolves, I win. He Spell Snares. I tutor for Crucible. If it resolves, I win. He Brainstorms into Clique and Cliques it out of my hand. I dredge Loam. If I get it going, I win. It resolves and I get back a couple Wastes, but he topdecks Surgical Extraction and cripples me. He lays down a Lavamancer and a Jace and passes. Jace isn't worrying me that much right now, so I'm digging for COP: Red, but instead hit Smokestack. And he actually manages to outrace my Smokestack through a series of miraculous topdecks - Stoneforge into Batterskull, dump it at upkeep and sac both token and equipment, Jace into Land after drawing a creature, etc, etc, and he Grim Lavamancers me to death after I can't find COP. He went on to get 11th, but it still sucked, and was my only 0-2 of the day.

(0-2) 2-3

Match 6 - UW Stoneblade. My fifth CONSECUTIVE Stoneblade deck of the day. I guess all the Reanimator and Tempo and Dredge and Maverick I saw at the beginning of the day decided to avoid me. It's kind of favorable and all, but the whole reason I wanted to play Legacy was because Standard during Caw-Blade was pissing me off due to the lack of variety. Good job, game. Anyways, both games I develop early and have an aggressive plan with both Loam and Manabond. She insists on playing them both out for some reason and I end up slow rolling the hell out of her with triple Exploration, Crucible, and Zuran Orb. Game 2 I end up playing 3 Bobs and losing tons of life, but I don't really care because I gain 8 life a turn anyways. Ghost Quarter lock both games. Woot.

(2-0) 3-3

Match 7 - NO Bant.

Game 1, I think he's playing the Bant Maverick list I saw online a few weeks ago, so I waste as aggressively as possible. I keep him Ported and Wasted for a few turns before he starts to develop, but the whole thing takes a long time. He taps 4 mana and I'm expecting Jace with a cringe, but he slams Progenitus and passes. I'm fine, because I've got Tolaria West. I tutor Glacial Chasm and sit on it for enough turns to grab both Crucible and Loam in case of counters, and pass the turn at 2 life. He's digging for what I assume is Wasteland, but I get Tabernacle out and his dudes start dying. I Bojuka Bog him right before Progenitus dies, and only the big rainbow dude shuffles back in, so I take Game 1 in a length 43-minute match. Game 2 is over much quicker, as I resolve a Bob. He does manage to Natural Order, but it's Terastodon. It shoots down my Ensnaring Bridge and Exploration, but I hit another one off Top and tutor for Tabernacle to kill his 9/9 and one 3/3.

(2-0) 4-3

Match 8 - Combo Elves

Another bad matchup. At least there were only two combo decks today. Game 1 I stick Ensnaring Bridge T2, but he Summoner's Pacts for Viridian Shaman and nukes it. I get it back with Academy Ruins, but he Zeniths for Wirewood Symbiote and proceeds to again smash my Bridge, and then my face. G2 I bring in the normal Storm hate package and put him on a clock with two beaters, and then keep his two lands Ported. G3 is similar. He tries to aggro me out, actually - double Elvish Archdruid, but I keep enough Mazes going to eventually stop him from killing me and somehow manage to beat through his Elves.

(2-1) 5-3

I was ok with how the day went. Playing Storm Match 1 put me in a bad bracket though, and playing 5 Stoneblade decks in a row was just aggravating, especially since it's a fairly positive matchup unless your opponents lucksack on hate like my two Stoneblade losses did. I didn't misplay much at all though, and I guess I know how to play against Stoneblade even better now? I got 41st overall.

Cards that were bad:
Krosan Grip. I love it, but I didn't board it in once all day. I'm starting to realize that this is basically only for bouncing Leyline. I don't like running non-permanents in this deck that aren't Tutors, but I also don't know if I'd feel that good without the card. It's a slot worth reconsidering.

Cabal Pit. Yes, it's a black source for Confidant, but I only used it once all day - to kill a Stoneforge in a game I was already winning - so I think it's got to go. I'm probably going to bring Tower of the Magistrate in from the board since there is a ton of Stoneblade running around, and I have another black source in my recent addition Bojuka Bog. That will free up a sideboard slot for the new Grafdigger's Cage.

Everything else that I used was awesome. I loved having the 2/1 split of Horizon Canopy and cycle lands for utility with both Crucible and Loam and fixing. I was able to Loam 5 times in one turn in the first match against NO Bant, actually. I dumped 11 lands off Manabond XD. I didn't use Karakas very much. Going up from 1 Factory and down from 4 Mazes was fine. I rarely thought I needed another maze and the second Factory helped. Ensnaring Bridge was less perfect, but that's only because it's less than perfect against 7 of the 8 matches I played against (5 Stoneblade, 2 combo), and I would never drop it from the main.

So that was my tournament. I'll have two more reports from tournaments this week, and I hope you guys enjoy reading this - or at least, I hope this helps some guys who are looking to play the deck. Thanks!

[ESG]

Game 3 he opens with Leyline. So that's why he mulled twice G2. Why are all the off-color decks running Leyline now? I know I can win through Leyline, but he boarded his removal back in, and Bob and Revoker eat it early. I have a Top, but he Extractions Wasteland and then resolves a Crucible, and he's got a Wasteland under it. I'm trying to dig for Bojuka Bog but I'm hitting nothing, and by the time he resolves Jace, I can't do anything about it. Talk about hate.


Leyline of the Void is really strong when you can protect it with counters. There's simply higher risk involved when you can't hardcast it. This is also why Krosan Grip is in Lands' board. Trygon Predator used to be a house for me in Game 2, but there's so much removal these days that Krosan Grip is the go-to card.

[Fuzzy]

@Malacoda: Congratz on your finish! Just one question: How was Zuran Orb main deck for you?

Anyway, Dark Ascension spoilers showed the best card any Lands player could ask: Grafdigger's Cage. I probably will never use it in my list (Tormod's does a better job, since it's transmutable) but because some advantages over other hates, maybe some people join the hype wagon and use it.

What would be better than a grave-hate who does NOTHING for us? :laugh:

[Malacoda]

@Malacoda: Congratz on your finish! Just one question: How was Zuran Orb main deck for you?

Anyway, Dark Ascension spoilers showed the best card any Lands player could ask: Grafdigger's Cage. I probably will never use it in my list (Tormod's does a better job, since it's transmutable) but because some advantages over other hates, maybe some people join the hype wagon and use it.

What would be better than a grave-hate who does NOTHING for us? :laugh:

Thanks man! Zuran Orb maindeck has almost always been good. In the past, it's allowed me to gain life out of Storm range and has totally won the game against things like UR Snapburn. Managing to set it up with a Crucible and Exploration is GG most of the time. However, because of my matchups (2 combo, 5 Stoneblade, 1 NO), it and Ensnaring Bridge were both less good than they might have been. Every time I try to move Zuran Orb to the side, I regret it because I face aggro or Tempo or something.

I'll be running a singleton Cage in my board simply because it hoses Maverick, which is obviously a sketchy matchup assuming capable pilots.

[Fuzzy]

I'll be running a singleton Cage in my board simply because it hoses Maverick, which is obviously a sketchy matchup assuming capable pilots.

I'm losing something here, HOW Cage hoses Maverick? GSZ, fine, and..?

[Malacoda]

I'm losing something here, HOW Cage hoses Maverick? GSZ, fine, and..?

Eh, "hoses" is too strong of a word. Just the GSZ part, but I think it's significant enough to warrant a board slot, especially since it can be boarded in against Storm running Past In Flames and any graveyard decks. Might not be good enough - we'll have to see when it's actually released.

[Serbitar]

The tutorable hoser for Maverick is Cursed Totem.

Here's to hoping everybody will play this new Cage instead of real hate :tongue:

[Serbitar]

I was wondering if I was missing some tech against Scavenging Ooze. This is the card I've been having some trouble with lately, especially out of Explorer Rock as you really cannot realistically mana denial them - out of Maverick it is not too bad. Preboard most lists have EE as the only out (and even if you are running Barbarian Ring / Cabal Pit that will not work most of the time). Post board there is Cursed Totem and Pithing Needle both of which suck against a deck with Pernicious Deed. This leaves the clunky Oblivion Stone... And if they are on white, Sun Titan means you are totally done for.

Ideas?

[cuthbertthecat]

I was wondering if I was missing some tech against Scavenging Ooze. This is the card I've been having some trouble with lately, especially out of Explorer Rock as you really cannot realistically mana denial them - out of Maverick it is not too bad. Preboard most lists have EE as the only out (and even if you are running Barbarian Ring / Cabal Pit that will not work most of the time). Post board there is Cursed Totem and Pithing Needle both of which suck against a deck with Pernicious Deed. This leaves the clunky Oblivion Stone... And if they are on white, Sun Titan means you are totally done for.

Ideas?

In my experience, explorer rock is a pretty impossible matchup. They run too many basics and oozes for lands to do anything. Your best bet to stop ooze is to needle it and hope they don't have deed or pulse, which they always do. Against Maverick, you could maindeck a cursed totem or two to shut down their creaturebase.

On a sidenote, what do you guys think about boarding in torpor orb for the U/W matchup? I've found games two and three to be pretty difficult if they have extraction, since they can just waste and extract/snap extract your good lands, ignoring loam altogether. Torpor orb stops snapcaster(and every creature in the lists with spellstutter sprite and vendillion clique, and every creature but geist in the lists that run it). This limits them to one extraction usually, which is more than manageable.

[Malacoda]

I was wondering if I was missing some tech against Scavenging Ooze. This is the card I've been having some trouble with lately, especially out of Explorer Rock as you really cannot realistically mana denial them - out of Maverick it is not too bad. Preboard most lists have EE as the only out (and even if you are running Barbarian Ring / Cabal Pit that will not work most of the time). Post board there is Cursed Totem and Pithing Needle both of which suck against a deck with Pernicious Deed. This leaves the clunky Oblivion Stone... And if they are on white, Sun Titan means you are totally done for.

Ideas?

I have only played against Explorer-Zenith once, but I managed to do ok. I'm running a maindeck Bojuka Bog, and while they're not graveyard based, they get a lot of value out of things like E-Witness for Maelstrom Pulse, and I've found that recurring that is a pretty solid way to keep the game winnable. I have two kinds of Needles postboard for Ooze and/or Deed. Honestly, the way I would do it is just go get a Maze ASAP, because they don't run Wastes and can't handle enough of a splash for Vindicate. I dig for a Maze ASAP then I go get Academy Ruins because recurring it is quite strong against a deck that's mostly 2s and 3s. Smokestack, if it gets online, can be killer. But I agree that the mana denial plan is pretty much worthless in this MU. I haven't had a chance to test against the Birthing Pod version, though that one seems pretty terrible for us since they can actually circumvent the mana denial process nearly 100%.


In my experience, explorer rock is a pretty impossible matchup. They run too many basics and oozes for lands to do anything. Your best bet to stop ooze is to needle it and hope they don't have deed or pulse, which they always do. Against Maverick, you could maindeck a cursed totem or two to shut down their creaturebase.

On a sidenote, what do you guys think about boarding in torpor orb for the U/W matchup? I've found games two and three to be pretty difficult if they have extraction, since they can just waste and extract/snap extract your good lands, ignoring loam altogether. Torpor orb stops snapcaster(and every creature in the lists with spellstutter sprite and vendillion clique, and every creature but geist in the lists that run it). This limits them to one extraction usually, which is more than manageable.

I, too, have been having annoying issues with UW Stoneblade's whole "rip Snapcaster/Surgical off the top, win" technique. However, I wonder if just bringing in Chalice at 1 isn't better. Very few lists run Spellstutter Sprite at the moment, and Clique is both a) not often a problem when your hand is all lands and b) declining in popularity due to Geist. I see Orb having relevance elsewhere, but I'm not sure if it's enough to board it in against... well, anything. Chalice for one also stops them from having 8 Brainstorm/8 Spell Snare/8 Swords to Plowshares, which are relevant games 2 and 3 (if they kept them in) for Bob and any other creature-based hatebears. I'm running Phyrexian Revoker right now.

EDIT: Also, I took out the 2 Krosan Grips in my board. I found that I was ONLY bringing them in against decks with Leyline. Thus, I was bringing them in against any deck with black, and if they didn't have Leyline, they kind of sucked, and I was completely cold to Leyline in off-color decks, especially if I had lost G1. Plus I was tired of having 2 non-tutorable 3 cmc cards in my board, so I added a Sylvok Replica - recurrable, tutorable artifact hate that blocks Geist like a champ and saves itself from Swords.

[cuthbertthecat]

I have only played against Explorer-Zenith once, but I managed to do ok. I'm running a maindeck Bojuka Bog, and while they're not graveyard based, they get a lot of value out of things like E-Witness for Maelstrom Pulse, and I've found that recurring that is a pretty solid way to keep the game winnable. I have two kinds of Needles postboard for Ooze and/or Deed. Honestly, the way I would do it is just go get a Maze ASAP, because they don't run Wastes and can't handle enough of a splash for Vindicate. I dig for a Maze ASAP then I go get Academy Ruins because recurring it is quite strong against a deck that's mostly 2s and 3s. Smokestack, if it gets online, can be killer. But I agree that the mana denial plan is pretty much worthless in this MU. I haven't had a chance to test against the Birthing Pod version, though that one seems pretty terrible for us since they can actually circumvent the mana denial process nearly 100%.



I, too, have been having annoying issues with UW Stoneblade's whole "rip Snapcaster/Surgical off the top, win" technique. However, I wonder if just bringing in Chalice at 1 isn't better. Very few lists run Spellstutter Sprite at the moment, and Clique is both a) not often a problem when your hand is all lands and b) declining in popularity due to Geist. I see Orb having relevance elsewhere, but I'm not sure if it's enough to board it in against... well, anything. Chalice for one also stops them from having 8 Brainstorm/8 Spell Snare/8 Swords to Plowshares, which are relevant games 2 and 3 (if they kept them in) for Bob and any other creature-based hatebears. I'm running Phyrexian Revoker right now.

EDIT: Also, I took out the 2 Krosan Grips in my board. I found that I was ONLY bringing them in against decks with Leyline. Thus, I was bringing them in against any deck with black, and if they didn't have Leyline, they kind of sucked, and I was completely cold to Leyline in off-color decks, especially if I had lost G1. Plus I was tired of having 2 non-tutorable 3 cmc cards in my board, so I added a Sylvok Replica - recurrable, tutorable artifact hate that blocks Geist like a champ and saves itself from Swords.


Yeah, chalice is probably just better than orb at stopping snapcaster decks. On the issue of cutting K-Grip, I wouldn't because U/W sometimes sideboards crucible and leyline, both of which you want answers to that they can't counter.

[Malacoda]

Yeah, chalice is probably just better than orb at stopping snapcaster decks. On the issue of cutting K-Grip, I wouldn't because U/W sometimes sideboards crucible and leyline, both of which you want answers to that they can't counter.

I know, but it just feels terrible having a card that I bring in for ONE matchup MAYBE in game 3. I don't feel comfortable just bringing K-Grip in blind against UW Blade because they "might" be running off-color Leylines considering that 9+ cards already go in against them (1 Phyrexian Revoker, 4 Dark Confidant, 1 Engineered Explosives, 2 Extirpate, 1 Tower of the Magistrate). I feel ok doing it against Storm, where 11 of my 15 sideboard cards are hatepieces, but against UW Blade, I can't find things to take out without seriously hindering the main gameplan. Against Storm, you just want to put them on a clock and stop them from comboing. It's rougher against Blade. Sylvok Replica provides a lot of resilience against more archetypes and is an overall better fit for the deck, except that it's counterable.

[cuthbertthecat]

I know, but it just feels terrible having a card that I bring in for ONE matchup MAYBE in game 3. I don't feel comfortable just bringing K-Grip in blind against UW Blade because they "might" be running off-color Leylines considering that 9+ cards already go in against them (1 Phyrexian Revoker, 4 Dark Confidant, 1 Engineered Explosives, 2 Extirpate, 1 Tower of the Magistrate). I feel ok doing it against Storm, where 11 of my 15 sideboard cards are hatepieces, but against UW Blade, I can't find things to take out without seriously hindering the main gameplan. Against Storm, you just want to put them on a clock and stop them from comboing. It's rougher against Blade. Sylvok Replica provides a lot of resilience against more archetypes and is an overall better fit for the deck, except that it's counterable.

Against U/W, have you considered boarding out the enlightened tutors and some bullets? After boarding, between counterspells and surgical extraction, tutor isn't the greatest.

[Malacoda]

Against U/W, have you considered boarding out the enlightened tutors and some bullets? After boarding, between counterspells and surgical extraction, tutor isn't the greatest.

I've done it. I'm not that comfortable with it. For one, if E-Tutor gets the counter-extract treatment, then I'm fine with it, because that means my Loams and Wastes are that much safer. For two, getting those bullets is actually pretty important some of the time (when it doesn't get countered). If a Tutor resolves, I have SOME hate piece that I can at least recur with Ruins barring active Leyline. I run both Revoker and Pithing Needle in the side, and both are very good against Blade. Having the ability to Pithe both Elspeth and Jace if necessary is brutal.

Poor Stoneblade players tend to board out counters against us too. They think along the lines of "Spell Snare? Well, that only counters Loam. That sucks since they'll just recur it." While it's never a good idea to rely on stupidity, you can always be sure it will be there in some form.

[Serbitar]

What's the purpose of Tower of the Magistrate in your guys' sideboards? Do you feel you need a fifth Maze of Ith against Stoneblade?

[GoldenCid]

What's the purpose of Tower of the Magistrate in your guys' sideboards? Do you feel you need a fifth Maze of Ith against Stoneblade?

Good question...guys?

[cuthbertthecat]

What's the purpose of Tower of the Magistrate in your guys' sideboards? Do you feel you need a fifth Maze of Ith against Stoneblade?

If they surgically extract maze of ith, you want a second way to not die to batterskull.

[Aggro_zombies]

If they surgically extract maze of ith, you want a second way to not die to batterskull.
More generally, giving a creature protection from artifacts causes equipment to fall off. In the case of Batterskull, the Germ it's equipped to becomes a 0/0 with pro: artifacts, causing Batterskull to call off, leaving an attacking 0/0 that dies to SBEs. They then have to either bounce and recast BSkull or try to equip to a hexproof guy (which most decks with BSkull don't run).

[Fuzzy]

If they surgically extract maze of ith, you want a second way to not die to batterskull.

Ice Floe and/or Mystifying Maze seems better.

[cuthbertthecat]

Ice Floe and/or Mystifying Maze seems better.

If they jump the batterskull with elspeth ice floe doesn't work (granted, this isn't too common, so it may warrant some testing), also it doesn't stop clique with an equipment the way tower does. Mystifying maze, however, is just awful.

[Malacoda]

Tournament Report for SCG Cincinnati:

I went to SCG Cincinnati over the weekend and played Lands, as usual. There were just under 300 people there IIRC (636 for Standard!!!) and we had 9 rounds. The list I ran is very similar to my list from last time at Star City Los Angeles (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?4020-Deck-43-Lands&p=613883&viewfull=1#post613883). The only differences were in 2 SB cards and 1 maindeck card. The final list was:

Spells (24)
4x Exploration
4x Life from the Loam
4x Mox Diamond
3x Enlightened Tutor
2x Manabond
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Smokestack
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Zuran Orb

Lands (37)
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
3x Tropical Island
3x Maze of Ith
3x Tolaria West
2x Tranquil Thicket
2x Mishra's Factory
2x Verdant Catacombs
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Academy Ruins
1x Bayou
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Savannah
1x Forest
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Karakas
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Sideboard(15)
4x Dark Confidant
2x Extirpate
1x Pithing Needle
1x Sylvok Replica
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Tower of the Magistrate
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Circle of Protection: Red
1x Phyrexian Revoker

Round 1: Bernie Wen with Esperblade (5th overall)

Game 1: I sit down, shake hands with Bernie, and proceed to immediately knock the top card of his deck face-up accidentally while we're shuffling. Oops. The game gets started, with me playing Top off a Trop (on the play). Bernie plays a land and passes. I untap, resolve Exploration, and get Loam in the graveyard and fetches back in my hand. He looks rattled. He counters a few of my spells, draws lots of cards, and resolves a Jace, but I've got a solid setup and good support, and I kill the Jace and eventually set up Smokestack with consistent Wasteland recursion, and he scoops at 20 minutes in.

Game 2: I keep a hand with a Bob and a decent start, but he's got Leyline out. I get Inquisitioned and he chooses Sylvok Replica out of EE, Replica, and Loam, then I start setting up as best I can. I resolve a Pithing Needle on Jace after he plays a Jace, but he Snapcasters Disenchant which he used on my Revoker before. It's really rough under Leyline once he has pressure. We play draw-go for quite a few turns - he's got a Geist and a Batterskull, but I've got a Maze and a Factory, and he doesn't want Geist to die. Eventually, he begins to stick Mystics and Snapcasters, and even though I resolve and blow and crack an explosives for 2, my next Bob gets Spell Snared and he's got enough mana to put Batterskull on Geist. I die right before the end of the round, and we draw.

0-0-1 (1-1)

Round 2: Blue Zoo

Game 1: I'm not 100% sure what he's playing, but he has 4 colors and both Delver and Wild Nacatl, so I assume blue Zoo. I go right for an Ensnaring Bridge and manage to stick it. He can't beat it.

Game 2: Turns out he's also running a Vengevine/Faithless Looting package. Cool? I stick Ensnaring Bridge again but it gets Ancient Grudges. I'm not worried. I have Explosives recurring and a couple Mazes. He has next to no burn. I just Waste-Lock his silly four color all-duals mana base and sweep.

1-0-1 (3-1)

Round 3: Cory? with RUG

Game 1: I know this is a good matchup, and I'm pretty sure once I stick E-Bridge it's over. I'm correct, and he scoops.

Game 2: I start well, developing Loam with protection, man-lands, and lots of Wastes and other lands. Then I get Loam extracted. I think I'm ok, as I'm set up well, but then both Tar Pit and Chasm get Snapped and extracted as safety measures and he drops a nimble Mongoose. Crap. He wastes my Factory and beats in. I draw nothing. Eventually I hit an E-Tutor, but it's one turn too late. I resolve Crucible and replay my Factory and a fetch, but I have one blocker, and I'm at one.

Game 3: I keep a pretty crappy hand. Probably should not have kept. It's something like Port, Factory, EE, Chalice, Top, Ensnaring Bridge, and Loam. I play and activate Top on my upkeep - no lands. Crapcrapcrap. I play my second land and reactivate Top. Tolaria West. Gah! Meanwhile, he's gone T1 Delver and flipped it on T2, and he just cast a second. I'm forced to play Tolaria tapped and play Explosives for 0 for the Delvers, then playing Chalice for 1. He looks at his hand and shrugs, then casts a Goyf on his turn and beats in with the Delvers, only one of which has flipped. I draw Bob off the top. I activate Top, digging for a land, but I don't find it, and he wasted my factory, so I can't even crack explosives for 0. Delvers flip and swing. I still have nothing off Top. I draw, activate, see a Trop, draw off Top, play it, crack EE for 0, and scoop, because his goyfs is too big and I won't see land for a few turns.

1-1-1 (4-3)

Round 4: UW Stoneblade

Game 1: He mulls and studies his hand hard before keeping. I let loose with Tropical Island, Top. He's intent on Waste wars, and blows up my Trop. I play a Waste and pass. He plays a Tundra. I waste it. I play a Factory. He Wastes it. I play a Foothills, crack, Exploration, Port, go. He plays Island, go. I draw, cast Loam, get a Factory and another Port, pass the turn, Port his Island. He draws and scoops.

Game 2: I open with a Bob and he clearly boarded out all his removal. He says he didn't know I was Lands even though I had dropped Tar Pit and Tolaria West last game. I get a huge advantage, and even though Snapcaster kills Bob and his Snaps and Factories hold me off for a few turns, There's nothing he can do to stop me from 7ing him almost every turn with Tar Pit and two Factories.

2-1-1 (6-3)

Round 5: Pox

Game 1: I've never physically played this MU out before, but I expect it to be a pretty favorable MU. He Inquisitions and takes Mox Diamond, since all I have is Loam and Diamond. Doesn't matter. I set up quickly, block half his spells, recur faster than he does, and just overall dominate the board. He can't win through Exploration, Crucible, Zuran Orb and scoops.

Game 2: I board in the usual package (on average, I board in 9 cards: 4 Dark Confidant, 2 Extirpate, 1 Engineered Explosives, 2 other MU-specific cards) and expect it to be more of the same. Cursed Scroll is more of a problem this game, and he Hymns away a Bob black source for a few turns, but I get the Orb/Exploration/Crucible lock again. He plays Deed (I think he splashed post board) for 1 and takes out my Exploration, but I recur Orb and topdeck 3 separate Explorations off the top in a row. Sorry.

3-1-1 (8-3)

Round 6: Rama with Junk

Game 1: I see a Force sitting on top of his board, and I assume he's playing Bant (which deck's manabase is so awkward it can't support Force and has to board them? Bant!). He pays a Dryad Arbor and starts Waste warring with me, but eventually I get a good start and he plays a Mox Diamond, tossing a Marsh Flats. Ok, Junk. He basically does nothing and ends up going down to just a Mox when I pass a countered up Smokestack his way.

Game 2: Played out similarly to the first, but with pressure. I had a Bob, but Bob died after a few turns, and Qasali started punching for 3 a turn. I couldn't find a Maze, and had to start Chasming. Blah. He set down a Terravore, Qasali'd my Exploration, and passed. I dredged, set down a Maze, and passed. He played a second Terravore, now an 8/8, and passed. I was forced to detonate Explosives for 3 so as to not die, and I still had to take a big hit from one. No matter, though, because Smokestack ticked up to 3 and killed him just like last game. Turns out the sideboarded Force was to make people think he was Bant. Lol.

4-1-1 (10-3)

Round 7: Andrew Morrow with Bant (2nd overall)

Game 1: He mulls twice, hard. I open with Exploration, Trop, and Port, hiding the Waste in my hand hoping he'll play into it. He plays a Tundra and passes. I Waste it and drop Ruins and Top. He plays Island, go, then realizes what he's doing and scoops.

Game 2: I board in the package for Stoneblade because that's all I saw (besides 1 Misty Rainforest), but he turns out to be Bant. The packages are similar, but not exact. And he got a good start with Hierarch, Forest, go. I play Top and pass. He plays a Tropical Island and a Knight of the Reliquary and passes. I draw into an Exploration, play Trop, play Factory, play Loam, resolve Loam, pass. He draws into and slams a Jace down, then swings. I chump with Factory. On my turn, I Dredge Loam and get back Maze of Ith, Glacial Chasm, Factory. I play Tabernacle and Chasm and pass. He fateseals, goes Knight -> Wasteland to waste my Maze, and passes. I choose to not sacrifice Chasm and go about rebuilding my position, dropping a Tar Pit and sacrificed Factory into play. I pass. He Knights into Bojuka Bog and nukes my yard. I'm ok, but I can now no longer recur Chasm for any more turns, because it's at 2 and I'm at 6. I sac Chasm, draw, Top, dig for Loam, fail, hit Jace with Tar Pit, and pass. He plays Stoneforge into Batterskull, goes Knight -> Waste -> Tar Pit, fateseals, and passes. I continue failing to find Loam, though I do find an Enlightened Tutor. He sets up Pithing Needle and Bob to get countered. He plays Clique and passes. I fail to find Loam again, and even though I can Tutor for Crucible to start Chasming, Jace is at 12, and I lose the Jace war and the defense war.

Game 3: This one is a little hard to remember, but it was like a slightly faster version of Game 2 - double Hierarch gave him huge advantage over the mana denial and Knight wasting the two Mazes I drew cleared its path. Pithing Needle on Jace stuck, but that's about it.

4-2-1 (11-5)

Round 8: Spencer Ferreber with Loam Pox

Game 1: I keep the awkwardness of 2 Trop, 2 Tolaria, 2 Loam, 1 Exploration, and I draw into Manabond on the first play. Because he went Entomb -> Nether Spirit turn one main phase, I'm assuming Pox, which means light pressure. He wastes my Trop and Passes. I draw a Tranquil Thicket and play it. He Sinkholes my Trop. I draw Tar Pit and play it. He draws, plays Liliana, makes us discard, and passes. I dredge, set up a dominant position in about three turns, and proceed to lock him out with Stack. I don't see a single Loam on his end.

Game 2: I immediately realize how awkward this MU is when I bring in Bob. He boarded out removal, but Cursed Scroll and Liliana kill him really fast... especially under his opening Leyline of the Void. I start to lose advantage once he gets Cursed Scroll activate, especially with 3 dead Loams in my hand. He Loams and Wastes me into exile and I scoop.

Game 3: I start out even stronger, but he's got TWO Leylines on the field (not that it matters - I blow both up or neither with EE) and is crushing me with Liliana and Scroll again. I can't play Bob because Liliana and Scroll kill him, and I can't play Revoker on either because then whichever it doesn't name kills him. I play Pithing Needle, but it only answers one, and his Deeds and Pulses cripple me hard. I blow up the Leylines, but I'm pretty far behind. He topdecks another one anyway and plays it, then topdecks yet another and Cursed Scrolls me with it until the time limit, at which point I scoop him in. A tie is as bad as a loss now anyway.

Round 9: RUG

Games 1-2: My opponent comes up to me, asks me what I'm playing. I ask him, why should I tell you? He said, "if your deck would beat mine, I'll scoop." I said, I'm playing Lands." He said, "Oh. I'm playing RUG. I scoop."

So that was my tournament. A little disappointing placewise, but I did pretty much the same as last time and played a lot better people in a field with a lot more people, so I'm not unhappy. I loved that I played a different deck every time, especially after the Stoneblade marathon of last Open.

Cards I loved:
1. The fifth fetch. I made a split second last-minute decision to swap out Cabal Pit for the second Verdant Catacombs, and found again just how much a fetch smooths out this deck's play. I didn't really miss Cabal Pit in the slightest.
2. Pithing Needle. I can't believe I never had one before. I really like having two, and Phyrexian Revoker is always useful.
3. Smokestack. I always forget how good it is. It always works - either it draws out a counter or a Qasali sacrifice for being big and scary or it wins the game.

Cards I didn't love: None

Everything pretty much proved its worth this time. I think I've got a very solid list for the current meta. It covers a LOT of angles. I didn't ever actually get to fire Sylvok Replica today, but I had him eat a Cliqueing and do a little blocking, and he scared people. I like his tutorability and recursion with Ruins; I don't miss Grip. I don't miss Cabal Pit either; it was only situationally good, usually in situations where it was useful but win-more.

Interestingly enough, I saw a guy playing foiled-out Intuition Lands with no Mindslaver and the O-Stone plan maindboard. He got 22nd. I didn't have a chance to talk to him.

Anyway, I was pretty happy with how I played and was totally stoked to play a ton of different decks and some great games. I'm looking forward to GP Indy and some other Opens, where I think I can T8. If you guys have any questions just ask.

[cuthbertthecat]

Malacoda-Nice work, and cool list! The only card I disagree with is bojuka bog, but if it works, it works. I'm also gonna try out the replica, that's some great tech.

On a sidenote, here's the list I've been testing with. It has a far easier time against scavenging ooze, but swords to plowshares becomes relevant, although not backbreaking if you see a loam/intuition/more than 1 creature. Thoughts/comments are appreciated!

4 Dark Confidant
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Eternal Witness
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
4 Intuition
4 Life from the Loam
1 Raven's Crime
1 Zuran Orb
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Maze of Ith
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Tolaria West
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Academy Ruins
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
1 Forest

Sideboard

1 Tormods' Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Circe of Protection:Red
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Krosan Grip
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Phyrexian Metamorph

Things that may seem strange:

Creatures- To shut this build of the deck down, your opponent needs creature removal and yard hate. This makes boarding for the opponent hard, as the default plan against lands is -creature hate, +yard hate.

Ravens Crime-This is great at protecting the creatures game 1. You can shred the opponent's hand and drop a knight and lock the game up quickly.

Intuition-With the creatures, stronghold, and raven's crime, you can make some sick piles. It's a bit clunky, but getting 3 knights with a stronghold active is sick.

2 Horizon Canopy-1 is just a flex slot, might be better as another dual or as a tranquil thicket.

No Manabond-It's a card that gets boarded out for every single game 2, and with the advent of scavenging ooze, going all in on a discarded loam gets far riskier game 1.

No Tranquil Thicket-A card that is good with manabond and postboard against yard hate, but there are no manabonds in this deck and loam isn't as important to this build, so it doesn't make the cut. Could definitely take the slot of one canopy though.

No glacial chasm MD-I can't recall the last time I played this card or drew it and was happy about the situation I was in. In the opener, it's horrible, without manabond or 2 explorations you're just delaying the inevitable, and relying on it against wasteland aggro gives them more topdecks that blow you out, and it implies that you played poorly at some point to back yourself into such a corner. It's a fine board card against burn, belcher, and wasteless aggro though.

[Malacoda]

Malacoda-Nice work, and cool list! The only card I disagree with is bojuka bog, but if it works, it works. I'm also gonna try out the replica, that's some great tech.

On a sidenote, here's the list I've been testing with. It has a far easier time against scavenging ooze, but swords to plowshares becomes relevant, although not backbreaking if you see a loam/intuition/more than 1 creature. Thoughts/comments are appreciated!

4 Dark Confidant
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Eternal Witness
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
4 Intuition
4 Life from the Loam
1 Raven's Crime
1 Zuran Orb
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Maze of Ith
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Tolaria West
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Academy Ruins
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
1 Forest

Sideboard

1 Tormods' Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Circe of Protection:Red
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Krosan Grip
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Phyrexian Metamorph

Things that may seem strange:

Creatures- To shut this build of the deck down, your opponent needs creature removal and yard hate. This makes boarding for the opponent hard, as the default plan against lands is -creature hate, +yard hate.

Ravens Crime-This is great at protecting the creatures game 1. You can shred the opponent's hand and drop a knight and lock the game up quickly.

Intuition-With the creatures, stronghold, and raven's crime, you can make some sick piles. It's a bit clunky, but getting 3 knights with a stronghold active is sick.

2 Horizon Canopy-1 is just a flex slot, might be better as another dual or as a tranquil thicket.

No Manabond-It's a card that gets boarded out for every single game 2, and with the advent of scavenging ooze, going all in on a discarded loam gets far riskier game 1.

No Tranquil Thicket-A card that is good with manabond and postboard against yard hate, but there are no manabonds in this deck and loam isn't as important to this build, so it doesn't make the cut. Could definitely take the slot of one canopy though.

No glacial chasm MD-I can't recall the last time I played this card or drew it and was happy about the situation I was in. In the opener, it's horrible, without manabond or 2 explorations you're just delaying the inevitable, and relying on it against wasteland aggro gives them more topdecks that blow you out, and it implies that you played poorly at some point to back yourself into such a corner. It's a fine board card against burn, belcher, and wasteless aggro though.

You don't like MD Bog? Really? Every single deck I played against used its graveyard:

RUG (2) - Snapcaster
Bant - Snapcaster, Knight of the Reliquary
UW and Esper Blade - Snapcaster
Blue Zoo - Snapcaster and Faithless Looting
Pox and Loam Pox - Nether Spirit, Loam, Crucible, etc, etc, etc.
Junk - Knight of the Reliquary, occasional Loams

It didn't outright nuke anything the way it would against Dredge/Reanimator, but it was great to have.

I like your list. I was working on something very similiar during the Misstep era as a way to fight it, and mine currently exists as a kind of sloppy Bant/Lands hybrid that runs a set of MD Spell Pierce. I like most of your choices. Raven's Crime is awesome, and running Stronghold with creatures makes Intuition crazy powerful, though I still think that it's not where we want to be right now. A lack of Glacial Chasm and Manabond makes a lot of sense in your list as well. However, I do like Tranquil Thicket/Top still, simply because you can save Loam from Surgical in theory (in practice, I rarely had the Thicket to save Loam, so maybe it's not that realistic. I think I've done like 3 times in tournament play).

I am a huge fan of Horizon Canopy, but I'm not sure if I'd run 2 considering you have the MD Bobs to account for.

Let me know how it goes, glad you liked the report :)

P.S. Eternal Witness = <3

[razvan]

More generally, giving a creature protection from artifacts causes equipment to fall off. In the case of Batterskull, the Germ it's equipped to becomes a 0/0 with pro: artifacts, causing Batterskull to call off, leaving an attacking 0/0 that dies to SBEs. They then have to either bounce and recast BSkull or try to equip to a hexproof guy (which most decks with BSkull don't run).
Unfortunately this is incorrect, they run Geist of Saint Traft. I have played Lands and Aggro Loam for a few years now exclusively, and I have yet to encounter something more annoying or aggravating than Geist or his hexproof ilk... it's inconspicuous, but deadly. :(

[Arianrhod]

Malacoda: you said you board in 9 cards on average. What do you generally board out, out of curiosity? I'm just starting to get into the deck, so any help on that would be awesome. I'm looking more at an Intuition build, for what that's worth.

[Malacoda]

Malacoda: you said you board in 9 cards on average. What do you generally board out, out of curiosity? I'm just starting to get into the deck, so any help on that would be awesome. I'm looking more at an Intuition build, for what that's worth.

It's pretty matchup dependent, but in almost every matchup, I board out the following:

2 Manabond
1 Exploration
1 Karakas

In any MU with Snapcaster, I can take out 1 Life From the Loam to both decrease the likelihood and effectiveness of Surgical -> Loam. After that, I usually take out the MU-specific lands like Bojuka Bog if I can and I often take out a Factory and a Maze of Ith depending on how aggressively they'll be playing. From then on, if I have to, I break sets. Usually just a Mox Diamond and a fetch. Taking out more than those cards can make the deck too inefficient.

And yes, Geist is quite obnoxious. We can't do ANYTHING about Geist with a Batterskull unless we can continually throw Factories in front of it and can Maze the token. At least Factories stop them from swinging with it if they don't have StP. It's why I went up one a few weeks ago. Plus, running Sylvok Replica in the board gives me something to eat Batterskulls and block Geists.

[cuthbertthecat]

You don't like MD Bog? Really? Every single deck I played against used its graveyard:

RUG (2) - Snapcaster
Bant - Snapcaster, Knight of the Reliquary
UW and Esper Blade - Snapcaster
Blue Zoo - Snapcaster and Faithless Looting
Pox and Loam Pox - Nether Spirit, Loam, Crucible, etc, etc, etc.
Junk - Knight of the Reliquary, occasional Loams

It didn't outright nuke anything the way it would against Dredge/Reanimator, but it was great to have.

I like your list. I was working on something very similiar during the Misstep era as a way to fight it, and mine currently exists as a kind of sloppy Bant/Lands hybrid that runs a set of MD Spell Pierce. I like most of your choices. Raven's Crime is awesome, and running Stronghold with creatures makes Intuition crazy powerful, though I still think that it's not where we want to be right now. A lack of Glacial Chasm and Manabond makes a lot of sense in your list as well. However, I do like Tranquil Thicket/Top still, simply because you can save Loam from Surgical in theory (in practice, I rarely had the Thicket to save Loam, so maybe it's not that realistic. I think I've done like 3 times in tournament play).

I am a huge fan of Horizon Canopy, but I'm not sure if I'd run 2 considering you have the MD Bobs to account for.

Let me know how it goes, glad you liked the report :)

P.S. Eternal Witness = <3

Bog's ok, but I just don't like sorcery speed graveyard hate too much. I like it in knight decks though. Top would probably be ok in my list, although if you have intuition they get a bit clunky together. On intuition, I don't think that normal lands with manabond wants it as it creates akwardness, but in my style of deck it's just another must-counter, much like almost every other card in the deck. I was considering cutting the second canopy for the second bayou because without urborg, crime is a bit awkward to flashback off of one non-diamond black source.

[Malacoda]

Bog's ok, but I just don't like sorcery speed graveyard hate too much. I like it in knight decks though. Top would probably be ok in my list, although if you have intuition they get a bit clunky together. On intuition, I don't think that normal lands with manabond wants it as it creates akwardness, but in my style of deck it's just another must-counter, much like almost every other card in the deck. I was considering cutting the second canopy for the second bayou because without urborg, crime is a bit awkward to flashback off of one non-diamond black source.

That feels right to me. Running Urborg itself might honestly even be appropriate. Having an online Stronghold seems like the first step on the way to winning.

Yup. I was running 1 Top/1 Intuition for a while before I switched out of Intuition entirely for a second Top; they've got better synergy and I was milling the one Intuition most of the time anyway since it was a singleton.

The only thing about your post I'm confused about:



Bog's ok, but I just don't like sorcery speed graveyard hate too much. I like it in knight decks though.


when your list runs 3 KOTR.

[GoldenCid]

Well done Malacoda!!!
My questions are simple:

1-Why did you choose lands for playing in cincinati??
2- How do you deal with snapcaster ----> double surgical??
3- Is E. Tutor significatively better than intuition that can seach for lands??

Thx in advance....

[.dk]

Well done Malacoda!!!
My questions are simple:

1-Why did you choose lands for playing in cincinati??
2- How do you deal with snapcaster ----> double surgical??
3- Is E. Tutor significatively better than intuition that can seach for lands??

Thx in advance....

not to speak for him, but in regards to 3, the disadvantage seems much more that you can't E.Tutor for Loam, whereas you can with Intuition. That's the only thing that I've really missed about switching from Intuition to E.Tutor anyway - Tolaria West does a find job tutoring for lands. Because of this though, I've found myself on the Crucible plan more often than I did running Intuition.

[cuthbertthecat]

That feels right to me. Running Urborg itself might honestly even be appropriate. Having an online Stronghold seems like the first step on the way to winning.

Yup. I was running 1 Top/1 Intuition for a while before I switched out of Intuition entirely for a second Top; they've got better synergy and I was milling the one Intuition most of the time anyway since it was a singleton.

The only thing about your post I'm confused about:



when your list runs 3 KOTR.

Ive got a bog in the board because i run knight, im just not sure if its a good option for a knightless build

[cuthbertthecat]

After seeing how well pox variants abuse cursed scroll, I've been wanting to run it in lands. It's a finisher, an answer to jace, and recurring removal all in one card. I've been playing around with it in my enlightened tutor build along with cursed totem, it seems good so far.

[FTW]

Why doesn't the deck change it's name already??? I haven't seen anyone run over 40 lands since Misty Rainforest was printed. Now it's just plain misleading.

I mean, if I registered a deck named "BUG Control" and was really playing a red-blue-green CounterTop list, I'm pretty sure people would be pissed

[iamfrightenedtoo]

@FTW
this happens all the time,
Burn is no longer a true Burn deck, Pox doesnt run Pox, The Rock is more or less Maverick, and all Green White decks are basically Mavericks but run differently.

It is no longer essential to urn 43 lands in the deck anymore, but its still 43 Lands. Pox annoys me personally the most though.

[Fuzzy]

I call it Monolands Control. Use your imagination and call this deck any name you want.

BTW, why they don't call Nic Fit Garbage Can? (Well, they should...)

[Malacoda]

Well done Malacoda!!!
My questions are simple:

1-Why did you choose lands for playing in cincinati??
2- How do you deal with snapcaster ----> double surgical??
3- Is E. Tutor significatively better than intuition that can seach for lands??

Thx in advance....

1. Lands was my "dream deck" when I first got into the format, and now that I've actually built it, I find it to be the most fun deck I've ever played. Plus, it's quite solid in the current meta, and I'm fairly experienced with it at this point.

2. The same way you deal with any other graveyard hate. It sucks. You try to play around it (preferably with Thicket/Top, but that doesn't save Wastes....), and when you can't, it fucks you over (more or less depending on the game state). I bring Chalice in against RUG, but I don't think it's worth it for Stoneblade most of the time.

3. The two are not comparable. Intuition is a slow and clunky yet extremely flexible tutor that I feel is better suited to a slower meta and the more mana-intensive builds. E-Tutor gives me a ton of flexibility; it's not just there for Exploration. I always hated Intuition for 3 accelerants when I played Intuition. I do feel that the card is extremely powerful (Crucible/Ruins/Loam anyone?), but in my build, it's not right. I used to run it as a 1-of in my E-Tutor build, but it became too clunky, and was milled more often than not, so I switched to a second Top. E-Tutor may not be able to find specific lands, but if I really wanted to go nuts there, I'd just play Crop Rotation. Tolaria West is killer as it is.


not to speak for him, but in regards to 3, the disadvantage seems much more that you can't E.Tutor for Loam, whereas you can with Intuition. That's the only thing that I've really missed about switching from Intuition to E.Tutor anyway - Tolaria West does a find job tutoring for lands. Because of this though, I've found myself on the Crucible plan more often than I did running Intuition.

This is also accurate, but I think that it's actually made my deck better. I'm no longer 100% on Loam as Plan A, which makes me more resilient to hate and which gives more flexibility and versatility mid-game if I can just grab a Crucible and pick up where I left off with Loam.


After seeing how well pox variants abuse cursed scroll, I've been wanting to run it in lands. It's a finisher, an answer to jace, and recurring removal all in one card. I've been playing around with it in my enlightened tutor build along with cursed totem, it seems good so far.

I'm not sure if this is what we want to be doing. I definitely do not feel the need for another finisher, and the only time I lost to Jace last weekend was when I was also under pressure from a pair of Hierarchs, a Batterskull, and a 9/9 Knight of the Reliquary. My current build at least has a lot of answers. If I wanted recurring removal, I think I'd go back to Cabal Pit. But I'll test it. It doesn't seem terrible, just not ideal to me.

Also, someone mentioned Trade Routes to me in another Lands discussion. I think it's worth testing as a singleton in the E-Tutor builds, but it could easily just be win-more.

[cuthbertthecat]

Trade routes seems best in the scenarios where you don't have an accelerent and need to ditch extra non-utility lands. In these scenarios, I think I would rather tutor for an exploration or an artifact that answers the current situation.

[lunabass]

what happened to crop rotation? it gives you a land toolbox at instant speed?

somebody should probable remake this as a primer with different versions of the deck, card choices, matchups and sample hands..

i'd do it myself but quite honestly i've only taken interest in this deck since yesterday :p

on a side note, what did you guys think of the gothic gardens deck that topped at "Starcitygames Legacy Series: Washington" by David Price? (234 people tournament)

[Malacoda]

Crop Rotation is simply another version of the deck that people like to capitalize on, just like the E-Tutor or Intuition variants. I think the last version I saw that used Crop Rotation was also an Intuition build.

Personally, I don't like Crop Rotation. While it can definitely do awesome things like Crop into a Glacial Chasm at instant speed, I feel that that kind of thing is more cute than actually good, as opponents will know to just counter the Crop Rotation when it matters more. Plus, it's another non-recurrable card, and if it's countered you're down a land. I'd much prefer to run Entomb, as it can get any artifact, land, or Loam if you need it, and you're not down a land if it gets countered. It's less cute but more reliable.

I liked the deck, but it isn't Lands.

I would be extremely interested in writing a primer. Would some of the other experience Lands players be interested in contributing and/or helping me edit?

This could be a rough outline:

1. History
2. Strategy
3. Why You Should Play Lands
4. Card Choices
5. Sample Decklists
6. Sideboarding Choices
7. Matchups

[Anen]

on a side note, what did you guys think of the gothic gardens deck that topped at "Starcitygames Legacy Series: Washington" by David Price? (234 people tournament)

I am playing that list at the moment, with the 4th entomb as it is the only tutor and a Tabernacle instead of 2 fetches and I really like blowing a deed then bash with manlands/Worms ^^
But 3 raven crimes are definitely not enought to fight combo. I don't like the sideboard plan he had too. People don't always side out targeted removal for grave yard hate, being killed my manland is like wtf and they don't enjoy it.
I am trying to find a SB plan that can fight combo and burn (i am missing my red circle), chalice is not that great and I don't want to have 4 Zuran orbs is my SB.. Any ideas?

1 Forest
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Cabal Pit
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Treetop Village
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Barren Moor
4 Bayou
4 Maze of Ith
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

4 Exploration
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Entomb
1 Worm Harvest
2 Damnation
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Raven's Crime
4 Life from the Loam

SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Zuran Orb
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void

[ESG]

@ Anen: I run a similar build and am using Duress and Inquisition of Kozilek out of the sideboard to fight combo decks. It's pretty strong when used alongside Extirpate or Surgical Extraction or Leyline.

[cuthbertthecat]

Crop Rotation is simply another version of the deck that people like to capitalize on, just like the E-Tutor or Intuition variants. I think the last version I saw that used Crop Rotation was also an Intuition build.

Personally, I don't like Crop Rotation. While it can definitely do awesome things like Crop into a Glacial Chasm at instant speed, I feel that that kind of thing is more cute than actually good, as opponents will know to just counter the Crop Rotation when it matters more. Plus, it's another non-recurrable card, and if it's countered you're down a land. I'd much prefer to run Entomb, as it can get any artifact, land, or Loam if you need it, and you're not down a land if it gets countered. It's less cute but more reliable.

I liked the deck, but it isn't Lands.

I would be extremely interested in writing a primer. Would some of the other experience Lands players be interested in contributing and/or helping me edit?

This could be a rough outline:

1. History
2. Strategy
3. Why You Should Play Lands
4. Card Choices
5. Sample Decklists
6. Sideboarding Choices
7. Matchups

I'd help as long as there were a section 8 for pictures of pimp lands decks :cool:

[Arianrhod]

This is what I've been working on -- as I'm just getting into the archetype, I'm sure there are many problems with my list, so any help would be appreciated.

1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Mox Diamond
1x Smokestack
1x Zuran Orb

4x Exploration
2x Manabond

4x Intuition
3x Punishing Fire

4x Life from the Loam
1x Raven's Crime

1x Academy Ruins
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Chasm
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
3x Maze of Ith
2x Mishra's Factory
3x Misty Rainforest
4x Rishadan Port
1x Savannah
1x Taiga
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2x Tolaria West
3x Tropical Island
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland

//SB
3x Chalice of the Void
3x Dark Confidant
3x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Noxious Revival
1x Karakas
1x Unburial Rites
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Gigapede


My thought was that with the surge of Maverick, Punishing Grove would help. It does shore up that matchup, in my experience, and it fits in the deck seamlessly, especially starting with an Intuition shell. There are also a few Bant decks and an elf deck or two in the general area, and I've been having enormous problems when decks lead off with a turn 1 mana dork of any variety. Maybe Fires is a crutch rather than actually good for the deck, I don't know.

Other thoughts:
- Intuitioning for Loam-Urborg-Crime is dirty, and I love it.
- Smokestack is amazing, and I'm definitely happy with it maindeck.
- The sideboard is atrocious, although the Rites/Iona package doesn't feel too terrible. It might be better served as like a triple Mindbreak Trap or something like that for Intuition purposes. Especially vs. High Tide, since you can potentially interact with them mid-combo through Intuition.
- I like Knight of the Reliquary, but I'm not sure if he's right. He might be too far into the "bring in dudes" plan, especially since there isn't a lot of lands to really feed him. He's less of a tutor and more of a beater, it feels like.
- I'd like a Riftstone Portal somewhere, but it might be that it should be a second Urborg.
- The thought of Ray of Revelation for Blood Moon has occurred to me. This deck cares less about Magus due to Punishing Fire, although it's still a pain in the ass since I have to have or draw into a Fire. I can't dredge for it.

Again, I fully expect criticism -- I've been having a blast playing this deck so far, and hope to continue after some input from people who actually know what they're talking about, instead of my durdling.

[Malacoda]

I'd help as long as there were a section 8 for pictures of pimp lands decks :cool:

Great. I can help on that part too; I'm slowly pimping Lands. I'll PM you what I have so far.


This is what I've been working on -- as I'm just getting into the archetype, I'm sure there are many problems with my list, so any help would be appreciated.

1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Mox Diamond
1x Smokestack
1x Zuran Orb

4x Exploration
2x Manabond

4x Intuition
3x Punishing Fire

4x Life from the Loam
1x Raven's Crime

1x Academy Ruins
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Chasm
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
3x Maze of Ith
2x Mishra's Factory
3x Misty Rainforest
4x Rishadan Port
1x Savannah
1x Taiga
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2x Tolaria West
3x Tropical Island
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland

//SB
3x Chalice of the Void
3x Dark Confidant
3x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Noxious Revival
1x Karakas
1x Unburial Rites
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Gigapede


My thought was that with the surge of Maverick, Punishing Grove would help. It does shore up that matchup, in my experience, and it fits in the deck seamlessly, especially starting with an Intuition shell. There are also a few Bant decks and an elf deck or two in the general area, and I've been having enormous problems when decks lead off with a turn 1 mana dork of any variety. Maybe Fires is a crutch rather than actually good for the deck, I don't know.

Other thoughts:
- Intuitioning for Loam-Urborg-Crime is dirty, and I love it.
- Smokestack is amazing, and I'm definitely happy with it maindeck.
- The sideboard is atrocious, although the Rites/Iona package doesn't feel too terrible. It might be better served as like a triple Mindbreak Trap or something like that for Intuition purposes. Especially vs. High Tide, since you can potentially interact with them mid-combo through Intuition.
- I like Knight of the Reliquary, but I'm not sure if he's right. He might be too far into the "bring in dudes" plan, especially since there isn't a lot of lands to really feed him. He's less of a tutor and more of a beater, it feels like.
- I'd like a Riftstone Portal somewhere, but it might be that it should be a second Urborg.
- The thought of Ray of Revelation for Blood Moon has occurred to me. This deck cares less about Magus due to Punishing Fire, although it's still a pain in the ass since I have to have or draw into a Fire. I can't dredge for it.

Again, I fully expect criticism -- I've been having a blast playing this deck so far, and hope to continue after some input from people who actually know what they're talking about, instead of my durdling.

It doesn't look terrible. I'm not sure about the power of a singleton Raven's Crime, though it does make sense with the Intuition plan and can totally destroy hands. Your list in essence looks like an E-Tutor build that's using Intuition instead, what with all the singleton artifacts. I'm not sure if Intuition is the right choice.

The sideboard, however, does look terrible. Run 4 Bob. He's that good. KOTR is cool but is very slow and doesn't provide the same CA Bob does, plus his colors are more of a problem and you can't spin him T1 off a Mox. Karakas could easily be main, and the Unburial Intuition package is cute rather than good. People are going to be bringing tons of hate in. Prepare to play a lot of G2s and G3s wholly without your graveyard.

I like the Punishing Fire package but I really don't know if it's worth it just for Maverick. We already crush Team/RUG most of the time. If your meta is swarming with Maverick, then I'd say it's fine, but it's pretty useless against Blade, Combo, real Control, and stuff like that. However, the ability to answer a Hierarch is absolutely strong - that card is so bad for us.

[cuthbertthecat]

This is what I've been working on -- as I'm just getting into the archetype, I'm sure there are many problems with my list, so any help would be appreciated.

1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Mox Diamond
1x Smokestack
1x Zuran Orb

4x Exploration
2x Manabond

4x Intuition
3x Punishing Fire

4x Life from the Loam
1x Raven's Crime

1x Academy Ruins
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Chasm
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
3x Maze of Ith
2x Mishra's Factory
3x Misty Rainforest
4x Rishadan Port
1x Savannah
1x Taiga
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2x Tolaria West
3x Tropical Island
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland

//SB
3x Chalice of the Void
3x Dark Confidant
3x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Noxious Revival
1x Karakas
1x Unburial Rites
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Gigapede


My thought was that with the surge of Maverick, Punishing Grove would help. It does shore up that matchup, in my experience, and it fits in the deck seamlessly, especially starting with an Intuition shell. There are also a few Bant decks and an elf deck or two in the general area, and I've been having enormous problems when decks lead off with a turn 1 mana dork of any variety. Maybe Fires is a crutch rather than actually good for the deck, I don't know.

Other thoughts:
- Intuitioning for Loam-Urborg-Crime is dirty, and I love it.
- Smokestack is amazing, and I'm definitely happy with it maindeck.
- The sideboard is atrocious, although the Rites/Iona package doesn't feel too terrible. It might be better served as like a triple Mindbreak Trap or something like that for Intuition purposes. Especially vs. High Tide, since you can potentially interact with them mid-combo through Intuition.
- I like Knight of the Reliquary, but I'm not sure if he's right. He might be too far into the "bring in dudes" plan, especially since there isn't a lot of lands to really feed him. He's less of a tutor and more of a beater, it feels like.
- I'd like a Riftstone Portal somewhere, but it might be that it should be a second Urborg.
- The thought of Ray of Revelation for Blood Moon has occurred to me. This deck cares less about Magus due to Punishing Fire, although it's still a pain in the ass since I have to have or draw into a Fire. I can't dredge for it.

Again, I fully expect criticism -- I've been having a blast playing this deck so far, and hope to continue after some input from people who actually know what they're talking about, instead of my durdling.

You definitely want a secondary tutor after intuition. In my experience, it's best to win with intuition game 1, then board them all out and play like a normal e-tutor build postboard with bob as your big bomb instead of intuition.

[EternalDragon09]

what about r/w/g old school 43 lands simple basic and consistant because all these tool box cards are nice but what i have had the best success with is this list. i will take the consistancy over blue tool box any day.

4 manabond
4 exploration
4 gamble
4 mox diamond
4 lftl
2 barbarian ring
1 forest
4 maze of ith
4 rishadan port
4 wasteland
1 forgotten cave
1 glacial chasm
4 mishra's factory
2 nantuko monastary
1 nomad stadium
1 riftstone portal
2 savannah
2 taiga
1 tabernacle
4 tranquil thicket
2 treetop village
1 verdant catacombs
2 wooded foothills
1 windswept heath

[cuthbertthecat]

what about r/w/g old school 43 lands simple basic and consistant because all these tool box cards are nice but what i have had the best success with is this list. i will take the consistancy over blue tool box any day.

4 manabond
4 exploration
4 gamble
4 mox diamond
4 lftl
2 barbarian ring
1 forest
4 maze of ith
4 rishadan port
4 wasteland
1 forgotten cave
1 glacial chasm
4 mishra's factory
2 nantuko monastary
1 nomad stadium
1 riftstone portal
2 savannah
2 taiga
1 tabernacle
4 tranquil thicket
2 treetop village
1 verdant catacombs
2 wooded foothills
1 windswept heath

This sort of list wont be able to consistantly hit answers. You might just die to creature beats because you dont have a maze. With t west you have an additional 3 copies of lands you want every game, while enabling a few bullets for odd situations at no real cost. Building the deck without the blue aspect makes the deck much more high variance.

[Anen]

The thing is that when I play blue land, I feel more like "How I do I not loose?". And in a red shell it's more "How do I win?". Is this feeling shared?

[bruizar]

I feel like 43 lands is currently not taking advantage of the utility lands available. You really don't want to mess around with things like Tropical Island, because it does nothing but tap for mana. You are playing with 17 non-land cards that do something (they put extra lands in play...), so you better make sure that the lands have activated abilities that make up for your lack of non-land cards that do anything. Each land should have an activated ability that gets you closer to winning the game.

I think there is still a lot of room for optimization. I personally like the idea of using Smokestack and Springjack Pasture/Magosi the Waterveil together. I have tested this in a blue stax brew with Tolaria West and I really like it.

Springjack Pasture gives you -> colorless mana, some life, blockers, slow colored mana, smokestack fodder
whereas Magosi gives you blue mana, a trump card against Hive Mind, and the ability to skip your turn with soot counters on Smokestack.

The intuition package could be -> Loam, Tolaria West, Smokestack. Then use Tolaria West to find Academy Ruins/Buried Ruins and Springjack Pasture/Magosi, the Water Veil. Although, if you didn't naturally draw into one of the pieces that might be a little slow. at that stage, getting an Engineered Explosives package is probably just better. If you run into a situation where you have drawn into on of the 3 cards already, it could be more beneficial to assemble a smokestack lock.

[ReinVos]

The mana-producing lands are very important to the deck. Without enough green sources it's more likely you'll be taking mulligans. You need to be able to cast your Loams and accelerators early. Blue is also important because you need to be able to reliably transmute your Tolaria Wests.

You'll be surprised how easy it is to get color-screwed, even when you're playing a deck with almost 40 lands. It becomes even more likely you'll get screwed when you're playing too many ''spell'' lands.

I agree with Anen. The blue version of Lands is a prison deck at heart. It's designed to close down all angles of attack, forcing the opponent to concede. My build doesn't even play cards to win the game. I win by boring my opponent to death. If my opponent is trolling, I can Ghost Quarter lock him out when I have a Tabernacle on the table. Then I can start activating Factories to get in for some damage. I rarely have to go through the motions. Players just concede.

I have Confidants and Knights in my sideboard so I can mix it up post board. The creatures come in handy when I lose game one, forcing me into a position of playing more proactively and applying some pressure. Game one, I like to make a habit out of NOT activating Factories unless it's safe. That way I encourage my opponent to board out (most of) their removal spells.

[Malacoda]

The thing is that when I play blue land, I feel more like "How I do I not loose?". And in a red shell it's more "How do I win?". Is this feeling shared?

No.


You really don't want to mess around with things like Tropical Island, because it does nothing but tap for mana.


Would you play Merfolk without Islands?


Springjack Pasture


Tapping 5 mana is absolutely terrible for the deck because it means you can't be doing anything else. Some builds make a ton of mana but by and large, you won't. You have to be continually Loaming, playing lands, and using those lands to lock out your opponent. This means that you won't always be gaining tempo advantage since you have to Port or Waste or whatever your opponents. If you'd played the deck, you would know that "big mana" is no longer a real part of the Lands strategy in most builds. The turn after you play Smokestack can be one of the scariest things ever.

Plus, Springjack Pasture? Really?

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

Interestingly enough, I saw a guy playing foiled-out Intuition Lands with no Mindslaver and the O-Stone plan maindboard. He got 22nd. I didn't have a chance to talk to him.


The Rishadan Ports aren't foil... lol. But I do have the Portuguese Glacial Chasm and the German Zuran Orb. I will post my list up here after GP Indy with a tournament report. I like Oblivion Stone, over Mindslaver/Smokestacks. Mindslaver is cute, and it can win you a game fairly fast, but those established decks you dont see all the time ----> O. Stone just gets there. MUD, Show and Tell, Enchantress. ID, So far I've went 6-3 it GP Columbus, Losing to PV in round 9, Went 6-3 in GP Providence, Went 6-2 in SCG Pittsburg, and 6-1-2 in SCG Cinci, losing to Elves on Camera (FML). We'll see if something good actually happens this weekend :smile:

[Malacoda]

The Rishadan Ports aren't foil... lol. But I do have the Portuguese Glacial Chasm and the German Zuran Orb. I will post my list up here after GP Indy with a tournament report. I like Oblivion Stone, over Mindslaver/Smokestacks. Mindslaver is cute, and it can win you a game fairly fast, but those established decks you dont see all the time ----> O. Stone just gets there. MUD, Show and Tell, Enchantress. ID, So far I've went 6-3 it GP Columbus, Losing to PV in round 9, Went 6-3 in GP Providence, Went 6-2 in SCG Pittsburg, and 6-1-2 in SCG Cinci, losing to Elves on Camera (FML). We'll see if something good actually happens this weekend :smile:

Oh, awesome. I was also at SCG Cincy. I am also attending GP Indy.

[The_Tutor]

@OneBigSquirrelGod

can u post ur decklist please?

And u both goin Indy ?

See u there!

ps: Lets make lands play again lol!!

[cuthbertthecat]

8 1'd day 1 of gp indy with lands. Tourney report will ensue.

[The_Tutor]

lets see if GP Indy bring us good news...im tryin now a verison with entomb+intuition+tutor.

[Malacoda]

8 1'd day 1 of gp indy with lands. Tourney report will ensue.

I went 5-1-1 then lost to the biggest bullshit technicality on the planet. Report + explanation will ensue after tomorrow, once I've got more time. Met like all the other Lands players though, which was pretty cool. We all did decent :P

[sdematt]

Let me guess, you couldn't seal the Mindslaver lock in time?

-Matt

[The_Tutor]

43 Lands – 2 on day 2. Thats nice...

[soltakar]

How did you guys end up finishing?

[cuthbertthecat]

I ended up 10-3-2 in 62nd place. I made a crucial play error game 1 against RUG Delver in game 1 of round 14 at 10-2-1. I was at 1 life, had a crucible, several wastelands and ports, an ensnaring bridge with 2 cards in hand, and an intuition. He had 2 threshed mongeese, a 4/5 goyf, and no lands. I cast intuition for tabernacle, tolaria west, and loam, not realizing that he could just give me the tabernacle, play a red source, and burn me out, which he did. The correct intuition was glacial chasm, loam, and west, because this gives me a way to prevent damage/gain life and port any fetches he could play/waste any duals he could play and give him no outs. I was fixated on his out being some maindeck way to deal with ensnaring bridge, so I figured tabernacle was a good option. It wasn't.

[The_Tutor]

You playin Tutor and Intuition?

if you can post ur decklist and a report for us =)

I still believe Lands can beat this meta...its coming back like years ago. Canadian ********, Aggro Loam, Hight tide....

And GP lot of Stoneblade versions ....SCG open more variations....but lands I think can deal with this metagame....

[cuthbertthecat]

You playin Tutor and Intuition?

if you can post ur decklist and a report for us =)

I still believe Lands can beat this meta...its coming back like years ago. Canadian ********, Aggro Loam, Hight tide....

And GP lot of Stoneblade versions ....SCG open more variations....but lands I think can deal with this metagame....

Yeah, lands definitely felt like a good choice. My match losses were to surgical+snapcaster+countermagic, spiral tide, and pilot error, the deck always felt like it was dominating the game.
Here's my list:

4 Exploration
4 Life from the Loam
4 Intuition
4 Mox Diamond
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Manabond
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Cursed Totem
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Zuran Orb
4 Maze of Ith
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
3 Tolaria West
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm

Sideboard:

1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Circle of Protection:Red
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Dark Confidant
3 Oblivion Stone

On some of the card choices: The cursed totem was in the main because I expected a lot of maverick; while it was there in full force, I only played against it twice. It did, however, completely dominate both of those matches, and it made sideboarding against other decks easier. In the sideboard, the 3 o-stones are there against blade variants, where they will often have a varied converted mana cost across their board. Also, it kills leyline of the void while cleaning up the rest of the board. The ethersworn canonist should probably be the fourth chalice of the void; they have a similar impact against storm, but chalice is also good against blue.

Report:

Round 1: BYE

Round 2 v. Jayce Dunn with Merfolk
Game 1- I have an ensnaring bridge and an intuition in hand to his board of 2 lord of atlantis, silvergill adept, and merrow rejery. I cast intuition eot to bait his force, he has it, then I untap and slam the bridge. He has no outs, but the game goes on still. Eventually, my board amasses to a critical mass and he concedes.

Sideboarding: -2 Manabond, -4 Intuition, -1 Cursed Totem, +4 Dark Confidant, +1 Engineered Explosives, + 2 Oblivion Stone.

Game 2- I have a turn 2 Bob for which he has the force, I then stall with a couple of mazes and resolve an exploration. I get loam going, and eventually have ensnaring bridge, explosives on 1, explosives on 2 crucible of worlds, ghost quarter, tabernacle, and 2 oblivion stones which have put fate counters on all of my permanents to his board of islands and lords. I find a second exploration and ghost quarter all of his islands over a few turns. His creatures die, leaving him with just an aether vial in play. I o-stone it for good measure, tolaria west for tar pit, and he concedes.
2-0 Games, 2-0 Matches.

Round 3- Lewis Laskin with BUG Control

Game 1- I resolve a turn 1 exploration and have loam+waste+west against his 3 color deck with one basic. His manabase explodes, and we're off to game 2.
Sideboarding: -4 Intuition, -2 Manabond, -1 Cursed Totem, -1 Ensnaring Bridge, + 4 Dark Confidant, +3 Oblivion Stone, +1 Tormod's Crypt (I figured he was running loam somewhere in the 75)
Game 2- This isn't really a game. He mulls to 5, I have a turn 1 dark confidant. He brainstorms, sees bricks, and concedes. I apologize, he's cool with it, saying "that's magic". Definitely a cool guy.
4-0 Games, 3-0 matches

Round 4- Scott Morrow with Mono W Aggro (Not death and taxes)

Game 1- It's obvious he hasn't played against lands before; he reads all of my cards and doesn't concede when I get EE lock, ghost quarter all of his lands, have 4 maze of ith and glacial chasm. I deck him with ruins+mox diamond, and game 2 starts with 5 minutes left on the clock.

Sideboarding: -4 Intuition, -2 Manabond, -1 Cursed Totem, +4 Dark Confidant, +1 Engineered Explosives, +2 Oblivion Stone

Game 2- He gets a mindcensor against my plan of loam+west, but I have enough mazes to last through turns. If he had conceded game one earlier, he had a good chance of winning that game 2. We talk afterwards, he explains that he had 3 byes, so he figured he'd build something and come play. I think he ended up day 2ing.
6-0 Games, 4-0 Matches

Round 5- William Nichols with Sneak/Show

Game 1- He kills me on turn 4 with sneak+emrakul with the help of lotus petals and double lands. Ouch.

Sideboarding: -2 Manabond, -1 Cursed Totem, -1 Zuran Orb, +3 Oblivion Stone, +1 Phyrexian Revoker.

Game 2- He has the turn 3 show and tell, he puts in emrakul and I put in ensnaring bridge. I start smashing his manabase; at one point he has an untapped scalding tarn, I port it and he fetches a mountain, I untap and ghost quarter it, he fails to find because his other basics are in play. He concedes when I transmute for the tar pit.

Game 3- I have tutor for bridge, glacial chasm, waste lock, quarter lock, and karakas. He can't win and dies to the tar pit. I intuition at one point in this game for revoker, chasm, and karakas with loam and academy ruins.
6-1 Games, 5-0 Matches

Round 6- Samuel Black with Esper Blade

Game 1- He gets fast pressure on me, taking me down to 3 life. I find glacial chasm with loam and exploration, let it stay for a turn, and get several mazes into play. He concedes when I start ghost quartering his lands.

Sideboarding: -4 Intuition, -2 Manabond, -1 Cursed Totem, -3 Enlightened Tutor, +4 Dark Confidant, +3 Oblivion Stone, +3 Chalice of the Void

Game 2- He surgically extracts both my loams and my dark confidants. I concede to save time.

Game 3- He surgicals my o-stones after countering my first one. I die to batterskull beats and jace keeping me off of live cards.
7-3 Games, 5-1 Matches

Round 7- Jacob Bagha with Deadguy Ale

Game 1- He mulls to 6 and leads with nonbasics, I get waste+loam and dredge into some mazes and a tolaria west. He concedes.

Sideboarding: -4 Intuition, -2 Manabond, -1 Cursed Totem, +4 Dark Confidant, +2 Oblivion Stone, +1 Engineered Explosives,

Game 2- This game is a grind. He starts to gain advantage in the midgame with a liliana edicting away one of my two bobs with batterskull attacking, and really gets ahead when he hymn's my hand of academy ruins and tranquil thicket and relics me. I find a tutor for an o-stone, and clear the board. The game stalls for a bit due to my ports, and my board becomes zuran orb, 4 exploration, and crucible, while his is a jitte with 4 counters and no creatures. I'm gaining 10 life a turn, and he plays a bitterblossom. I tutor for tar pit, he gains life to circumvent the damage, but eventually the beats and the life loss from the blossom get him. He was hoping to deck me, as my ruins was exiled and my library was down to 8 cards.

9-3 Games, 6-1 Matches

Round 8- Brain Kibler with G/W Maverick

Game 1- He has a slow start, I have intuition for loam, ruins, cursed totem. I get the totem and he can't deal with it. He concedes when my board starts becoming massive.

Sideboarding- -4 Intuition, -2 Manabond, +4 Dark Confidant, +1 Engineered Explosives, +1 Oblivion Stone

Game 2- I keep a sketchy hand, the only appealing factor of which is EE lock. He has 2 Scavenging ooze, and I concede rather quickly.

Game 3- I naturally draw the cursed totem and slam it on turn 2. He gets a wheel of sun and moon and 2 attackers, but I get 2 bobs and 2 mazes along with tabernacle. He plays and pays for nobles for several turns, and attempts to armageddon off of them. I point out that he can't because of cursed totem, he reads it and laughs. He thought it was essentially damping matrix, he stops paying for them, but ports+wastes keep him off mana. At one point, I forget to pay for my bobs and they die at around 6 life, but tolaria west finds tar pit to kill him.
11-4 Games, 7-1 Matches

Round 9- Douglas Babcock with RUG Delver

Game 1- I waste+quarter his manabase and chill with a few mazes to stop his goyfs. He concedes when I play loam for west and search zuran orb.

Sideboarding: -4 Intuition, -2 Manabond, -1 Cursed Totem, -1 Enlightened Tutor, +4 Dark Confidant, +1 Engineered Explosives, +3 Chalice of the Void

Game 2- I stick an early chalice for 1 and start porting him. By the time he can deal with chalice, I can ruins it back and transmute for another. I play them on 1 and 2 and he concedes because that's his entire curve.

13-4 Games, 8-1 Matches

Day 2

Round 10- Adam Yurchick with U/W Blade

Game 1- I keep a sketchy hand that's the nuts if I find a fetch. I don't over about ten turns and die to equipped fellows.

Sideboarding: -4 Intuition, -2 Manabond, -1 Cursed Totem, -3 Enlightened Tutor, + 4 Dark Confidant, +3 Oblivion Stone, +3 Chalice of the Void

Game 2- I resolve a chalice on 1, and loam advantage eventually buries him. He concedes with about 20 minutes left on the clock.

Game 3- I stall out the early game, but he's gaining an advantage as the game progresses. I get a zuran orb and am able to gain too much life for him to be able to kill me in turns.

14-5 Games, 8-1-1 Matches

Round 11- Joshua Ravitz with Maverick

Game 1- I have enlightened tutor and ensnaring bridge in my opener, I put my opponent on maverick so I keep. His turn 1 windswept heath for savannah for gsz for arbor is met with my turn 1 cursed totem. Tutor for bridge comes shortly after, and that's a hardlock against maverick. He concedes when his only land in play is maze of ith.

Sideboarding: -4 Intuition, -2 Manabond, +4 Dark Confidant, +1 Engineered Explosives, +1 Oblivion Stone

Game 2- I have a turn 1 bob. He is able to waste my green source and pridemage my mox diamond, but bob keeps me ahead on cards and eventually finds a green source for loam. I eventually get 2 mazes and tolaria west with cursed totem and he concedes.
16-5 Games, 9-1-1 Matches

Round 12- Bernie Wen with Esper Blade

Game 1- I start with the loam advantage, playing around clique with tranquil thicket to main phase dredge and cast loam without passing priority. I resolve an intuition for explorations with a manabond in hand to bait the force, he doesn't have one though and both manabond and exploration resolve. He gets a jace, but is still very far behind on board and concedes when I tar pit his jace out and ghost quarter him.

Sideboarding: -4 Intuition, -2 Manabond, -1 Cursed Totem, -3 Enlightened Tutor, -1 Ensnaring Bridge +4 Dark Confidant, +3 Oblivion Stone, +3 Chalice of the Void, +1 Phyrexian Revoker

Game 2- This one goes long, he gets clique lock with karakas and I don't have an answer. He gets a jace, and I get an o-stone after finding a port for his karakas. I put fate counters on all of my nonlands and blow uo his board. He plays a leyline and another jace and continues where he left off, vindicating and exiling my creeping tar pit. I eventually have 4 rishadan ports and am able to waste karakas, in response to which he bounces his clique. On his upkeep, I port 4 blue lands. He fateseals and passes. On my upkeep, I port 3 more blue lands to keep him off clique in my draw step, activate ruins for EE, draw it, and play it on 4 with only 1 mana up. He untaps, jacestorms, and doesn't find a disenchant, vindicate, or snapcaster. On my turn, his leyline and jace die. He draws, casts a brainstorm, and finds vindicate for my zuran orb. In response, I port the wasteland he has in play, he wastes my ruins, and I gain 2 life in response. Port is such a tricky card. Eventually, I start getting loam advantage, but my tar pit was exiled when the leyine was in play. We go to time and he concedes, realizing that I will deck him with ruins+mox diamond.

18-5 Games, 10-1-1 Matches

Round 13- Colin Chilbert with Spiral Tide

Games 1 and 2- I can't beat spiral tide. I stare longingly at the match happening next to us, dredge v. maverick, and wondering why I wasn't paired against one of those. Them's the beats, I guess.

18-7 Games, 10-2-1 Matches

Round 14- Jason Ford with RUG Delver

Game 1- I stabilize at 1 with an ensnaring bridge and a crucible versus his board of no lands, a goyf, and 2 threshed mongeese. I have an intuition which I cast for loam, west, tabernacle instead of loam, west, and chasm, or chasm and any 2 cards for that matter, and I die next turn to his topdecked burn.

Sideboarding: -4 Intuition, -2 Manabond, -1 Cursed Totem, -1 Enlightened Tutor, +4 Dark Confidant, +1 Engineered Explosives, +3 Chalice of the Void

Game 2- I get a turn 1 chalice for 1 and loam going, he grudges the chalice and my zorb, I play an exploration and wreck his mana. I get a tabernacle on his board of dudes and no lands while at 18 life with 2 mazes, he concedes.

Game 3- He leads with a delver who doesn't flip and a mongoose. I waste his only land, his delver flips. I have an EE, I have a choice whether to blow up his mongoose, or his delver along with my 2 moxen. I choose to kill the goose at 15 life, figuring 1 have 5 draw steps to find an answer to delver with him having 5 cards in graveyard, meaning that a fetch + a spell will result in a much more difficult 3/3 to deal with. I draw 3 rishadan ports and 2 fetches and die while he has no lands in play.

19-9 Games, 10-3-1 Matches

Round 15: Ben Stark with Maverick

We I.D into top 64, as we aren't sure if the winner would even make top 32. I'm pretty sure I would've beaten him though.

Final Result: 19-9 Games, 10-3-2 Matches

[The_Tutor]

Isnt 4 Intuition and 3 Tutor too much?

I play with
3 tutors
1 entomb

Now im trying version with
1 entomb
3 intuition
3 tutors

Later gonna try
3 intuition
2 Tutors

Basic Engine:
4 Exploration
2 Manabond
4 Life Loam

Artifacts
4 Mox Diamond
1 Explosives
1 Zuran Orb
1 Ensanring Bridge
1 C. Worlds
1 Sensei
1 Smokestack

Sometimes I use Mindslaver (its so good, but cost lot of mana to lock)
Meekstone, 2 Explosives, Cursed Totem.
And now Im thinkin to 1 Chalice and 1 O. Stone. main, idk yet.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

I did terrible at the GP, going Only 2-2-2 with 3 byes. My opponents seemed to be playing very slow, but it could have been me I guess... lol

4 Exploration
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
3 Intuition
2 Manabond
3 Raven's Crime
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Zuran Orb
1 Crucible of Worlds


4 Maze of Ith
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Tolaria West
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Academy Ruins
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 Misty Rainforest
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath

SB
4 Krosan Grip
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Cursed Totem
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Worm Harvest
1 Trinisphere

I Lost against UW Blade (Tutenwold), Drew with Bant, Beat UW Blade, Lost to Tendrils, Beat Maverick, Drew with Bant. Very disappointed with the way the deck ran, and the luck of my opponents. I began to think, but didn't have too much time to test, but I find that Whenever I have Manabond, It seems to not be relevant, since there's multiple spells in the deck now. I don't like running O. Stone out there early, until I can surprise them with it, and make sure I've ravens crime'd as much away as I can. I usually save EE until I need it, and I like to sit on Intuition when I have Exploration and Loam going. and on top of all of this, the format has slowed down very very much, so I think I am going to start Testing Sylvan Library in its place. Thoughts? I thought about burgeoning, but that doesn't do a whole lot of acceleration. Anybody test these yet?

[The_Tutor]

cuthbertthecat,

what u think about mix of intuition, tutor and entomb?
Try to play with Null Rod and Cursed Totem main deck.

Im tryin ur version now

[cuthbertthecat]

cuthbertthecat,

what u think about mix of intuition, tutor and entomb?
Try to play with Null Rod and Cursed Totem main deck.

Im tryin ur version now

Entomb feels like it might be too many tutors with intuition and e-tutor still in the deck in the same numbers, although I haven't tested a version with it. I wouldn't play null rod though, it shuts down a lot of your own stuff and is only really good against some combo and affinity. Affinity is already a really good matchup, and if you want combo hate chalice of the void as a one of to tutor for seems better because it hurts you less. You definitely want the cursed totem main though; it makes the maverick matchup much less swingy.

[The_Tutor]

I faced same problem against Tides, and Storm. Chalice hellps, but not so much.
Need to think something against...idk...gonna keep testing. Arcane Lab, Mana Maze, Mindbreak Trap....



Later gonna test old version of 4 Manabond with Midslaver.
Missed smockstack some games.
I tested black lands...but dont feel confortable.

[cuthbertthecat]

I faced same problem against Tides, and Storm. Chalice hellps, but not so much.
Need to think something against...idk...gonna keep testing. Arcane Lab, Mana Maze, Mindbreak Trap....



Later gonna test old version of 4 Manabond with Midslaver.
Missed smockstack some games.
I tested black lands...but dont feel confortable.

You can't really beat spiral tide, they just have access to all kinds of bounce at varied mana costs. Maybe if you get chalices on 1,2, and 3, but then they'd just concede and beat you in game three.

The versions with four manabond and mindslaver are pretty dated; they only have intuition as a tutor, which can get really awkward with manabond, and slaver isn't really necessary and is hard to accomplish through yard hate games 2 and 3.

Also, Malacoda and I recently finished writing up a more recent primer for this deck. Do any of you guys know who I should contact to see if I would be able to make a new, more up-to-date thread?

[Julian23]

Message Tao for a potential update of the OP. He's still quite active on these boards.

[cuthbertthecat]

Message Tao for a potential update of the OP. He's still quite active on these boards.

Will do, thanks!

[The_Tutor]

u both play Lands MTGO or just real?

[cuthbertthecat]

u both play Lands MTGO or just real?

I only play lands for paper magic, I don't really understand how this deck wouldn't just time out in game 1 on modo.

[Tao]

The OP was updated with cuthberts/Malacodas primer. It is very good.

[Serbitar]

I only play lands for paper magic, I don't really understand how this deck wouldn't just time out in game 1 on modo.

I don't really have experience with this but as far as I know the opponent will also use a lot of time due to controlling all Tabernacle triggers.

[cuthbertthecat]

I don't really have experience with this but as far as I know the opponent will also use a lot of time due to controlling all Tabernacle triggers.

I'm not sure, activating ports and the like seems like it would use up a lot of time over the course of a game.

[Fuzzy]

The first page is now awesome, loved the update.

I disagree about the Burn matchup, I think it's quite easy in games 2 and 3 with Chalices and maybe some dedicated hate like CoP: Red. Also, I don't feel myself like the underdog in Maverick matchup, even without Cursed Totem.

I'm recently traumatized against Snapblade playing with Leylines of the Void, I don't know how good is the matchup, but I don't like facing it unless I'm playing Krosan Grips.

And finally: Feeling bad, my Bant list isn't there. :frown:

[cuthbertthecat]

The first page is now awesome, loved the update.

I disagree about the Burn matchup, I think it's quite easy in games 2 and 3 with Chalices and maybe some dedicated hate like CoP: Red. Also, I don't feel myself like the underdog in Maverick matchup, even without Cursed Totem.

I'm recently traumatized against Snapblade playing with Leylines of the Void, I don't know how good is the matchup, but I don't like facing it unless I'm playing Krosan Grips.

And finally: Feeling bad, my Bant list isn't there. :frown:

Burn is bad if they draw smash to smithereens and price, but its not impossible. Against blade with leylines, o stone is clutch. If you post your bant list, im sure it can be edited into the op

[CloudCityGames]

I'm planning on trying out this archtype to see if it's a good fit for me. Just a few questions:

I have been goldfishing with living wish as a way to get the exact land I need from my sideboard (a few slots devoted to creature / land silver bullets). Has anyone tried this and has it worked with any success?

Also, I threw in a limited resources to get with the enlightened tutor package... anyone try that yet?

[Fuzzy]

Now I had access of two Tabernacles, maybe I could give Living Wish a try. Also, Meloku looks INSANE in the board. Also, Oracle of Mul Daya.

But I don't really like the Limited Resources.

[CloudCityGames]

Meloku does seem nuts, I will try that in the wish-board today.

I have two tabernacles, so that is the main target, however being able to get Magosi game one for show and tell, or Bog for dredge, or any other utility land seems great.

Also access to bob, canonist, and needle beetle.

I will try out the meloku and let you know how it works.


I feel that limited resources can be an absolute blowout in certain scenarios. Turn one fetch into e tutor eot getting resources. Turn two land resources, manabond. You can just lock them out of the game on turn two or three, and slowly waste and ghost quarter away their lands while playing multiples of your own each turn.

[cuthbertthecat]

The only problem with living wish as a tutor is that it doesn't find loam/crucible, although oracle of mul daya is pretty close. Its worth testing I guess, but the heavy use of sideboard slots might make it an ineffective choice as well.

[CloudCityGames]

The only problem with living wish as a tutor is that it doesn't find loam/crucible, although oracle of mul daya is pretty close. Its worth testing I guess, but the heavy use of sideboard slots might make it an ineffective choice as well.

I guess it would make the sideboard half wish-board style and half other stuff. I will test it out this Sunday at our legacy event and post a tournament report on how it did. Just trying to put a fresh spin on it and try new ideas.

[cuthbertthecat]

I should be playing this deck for SCG Des Moines, the field seems pretty soft to Lands right now. The only thing I'm unsure about is the Punishing Maverick matchup and board plan. The G/W and G/W/u matchups are still as easy as ever with the maindeck Cursed Totem, but the red splash usually has too few cards to board in which leaves them with Punishing Fires still in the deck postboard, which is bad for the Bob plan. I'm not sure if having the 4th E Tutor in the board to just try to get Bridge+Totem ASAP for this matchup is correct, or if there's something I'm missing, or if I should just change my default board plan of -4 Intuition, +4 Bob for this matchup. Thoughts?

[into_play]

After taking a three-month hiatus from Legacy, I decided to head down to a small local tournament last Sunday with Lands, one of my favorite and most appreciated decks in the format. Though I have given the deck a lot of serious thought, researched it online and ran it a few times against select decks on Workstation, I have admittedly not played it in any tournaments. My inexperience was apparent, resulting in a horrible 0-2-2 performance at the 16 person, 4 round event. However, I was able to gain a lot of playing time and invaluable information for future endeavors with the deck. I was running the following list:

4 Exploration
2 Manabond
4 Life from the Loam
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Entomb

4 Mox Diamond
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Zuran Orb
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Smokestack

1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
3 Tolaria West
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
1 Mishra's Factory

SB
4 Dark Confidant
2 Krosan Grip
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
1 Cursed Totem
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Mana Maze
1 Oblivion Stone

Even though I used to disregard the Enlightened Tutor builds of Lands, I have since been convinced that it is the most consistent of the current incarnations. Being able to tutor for a silver bullet first turn and then lay it down the next is much faster than grabbing a clunky pile with Intuition. Additionally, the tutor avoids the graveyard altogether and can find an Exploration first turn. Ultimately, these three reasons were the selling points of replacing the Intuitions, and so far I haven't missed them.

One important deviation of my list from most others is the single Scrubland. Most lists I've seen tend to run 11-12 white sources and never more than 11 black sources. The addition of Scrubland to the other BW Standards (5 Fetches, 4 Moxen, 1 Bayou, 1 Savannah, 1 Karakas, 1 Creeping Tar Pit) provides 12 ways of producing either crucial color. I figure, in games where Dark Confidant is sided in, he will always want to be played second turn at latest if in hand. The extra black source will make this more likely, and I recommend it to anyone who has had trouble with being color-shorted. Also, I wanted a simple way to be able to cast Enlightened Tutor on turn 1 and Dark Confidant on turn 2. Because of these color requirements, I never side out Karakas.

I'm not entirely sold on the Grips and the Mana Maze in the board. There were a couple of times during the tournament where I would have loved to have Extirpate, but I don't know if Extirpate is impacting against enough decks to warrant inclusion.

The single Mishra's Factory in the main is a flex spot.

Here is a brief report from what I remember last weekend:

Round 1 - Aggro Loam

Game 1 - He gets a Countryside Crusher on the board early but my Ensnaring Bridge in hand prevents it from ever swinging. Even though he can never play more than one land per turn, he is able to find a Loam much earlier than me. Eventually he has more lands than me and I still haven't found my Loam, so he is able to Wasteland away everything but my basic Forest. A Liliana of the Veil that he gets out would probably have gone on to force me into choosing between my Ensnaring Bridge and what little else I still had left, but since I knew that he also had Punishing Fire to kill me over time, I opted to go to Game 2.

Game 2 - I side in Crypt, the second Explosives, Oblivion Stone as well as Pithing Needle and Cursed Totem for his Scavenging Oozes. The two Manabonds, Entomb, Mishra's Factory and Top are sided out. He plays an early Scavenging Ooze, but I have an Explosives in hand to deal with it. He is able to Extirpate both my Wastelands and my Loams, and a later Confidant provides him with too much advantage for me to overcome. I really would have liked Extirpates here, to take away the same cards he did from me. But otherwise, I feel this matchup is determined by who gets their Loam engine going earliest.

0-1-0

Round 2 - Sneak & Show

Game 1 - He plays first. On his second turn he Show and Tells an Emrakul. I have no Bridge or Karakas.

Game 2 - I Wasteland a Volcanic Island that he plays first turn. We both play lands for a couple of turns and I am lucky that he has no sol lands or Lotus Petals. The only tutor that I have is a single Tolaria West, to search for either Karakas or Glacial Chasm. I choose Karakas and a Progenitus follows a Show and Tell next turn.

0-2-0

Round 3 - Eva Green

Game 1 - He opens with Bayou, Thoughtseize and nabs an Enlightened Tutor. The following turn, he plays a slew of Confidants, Goyfs and a Vampire Nighthawk. I have a Loam and am able to find two Maze of Iths to survive for a while, but I eventually just die to the beats. He had too many lands to make finding a possible Tabernacle relevant (I would have transmuted for Engineered Explosives if I had a Tolaria West anyway), and most were basic Swamps.

Game 2 - This was the first matchup where my Scrubland proved its worth. My opening hand contained a fetch, Tropical Island, Enlightened Tutor, Confidant, a Loam and some colorless-producing lands. I was able to Tutor up an Exploration my first turn and get the Confidant into play the following. My Loam engine gets going and I eventually get Academy Ruins and Engineered Explosives to continuously destroy any creatures he plays. The Creeping Tar Pit then beats him. I did see Nihil Spellbombs, but they only remove a single Loam and nothing else of much importance over the entire game.

Game 3 - I get three Mazes down a few turns into the game and then find an Explosives to blow up his accumulating mass of creatures. At this point, time is just about up and no one is close to winning, so it's a draw.

0-2-1

Round 4 - Maverick with Red for Punishing Fire

Game 1 - He plays nothing the first turn and I play Exploration on my first. Thalia on his second. I have a Karakas in hand on my next turn to later bounce the Thalia. After a couple of more turns, he only manages to play a Scryb Ranger and a Punishing Fire. I notice that his manabase is entirely dependent on dual lands; an Enlightened Tutor thus gets a Crucible and I waste away three of his lands with two Explorations in play. I tutor for a Tabernacle shortly thereafter and he concedes.

Game 2 - This game, he gets several more beats into play much earlier. He also fetches up a Bayou and Extirpates my Wastelands. I am able to stabilize behind Mazes for a while before I am able to Engineered Explosives away his creatures. I am at 4 life. With my Explosives in the graveyard along with Academy Ruins and several other lands in play, I eventually become fearful when he Green Sun's Zenith out a Scavening Ooze. Luckily, he only has one mana open to activate it, and by Porting it, I am able to force him to activate the Ooze and respond by saving my Explosives. I Explode it away the next turn. After we both topdeck for a while, with him drawing neither a Punishing Fire nor another Extirpate, I feel that I am in good shape until I am able to tutor up a Zuran Orb and put myself out of burn range. Then out of nowhere, he drops an Armageddon. I did not know that Maverick played the card and did not see it coming at at all. Just goes to show how much about Legacy I've missed over the months. I am stuck with only a Creeping Tar Pit and Tolaria West in hand, and he drops a Forest and Noble Hierarch. The Hierarch is able to finish my last 4 life before I am able to rebuild again.

Game 3 - There are only 8 minutes left in the round now, so my best possible outcome is to stall him enough for a draw. I had an Enlightened Tutor in my hand and was able to search for the Cursed Totem from the sideboard. I played it second turn and effectively made all of his creatures vanilla. He is not able to pressure me enough before I set up Mazes and we quickly call it a draw. Cursed Totem is just such a hoser for Maverick, and I'm surprised it hasn't shown up in more winning sideboards.

0-2-2

Conclusions:

Despite the poor finish, I thoroughly enjoyed playing the deck. There are so many decisions to be made and tight play is crucial. But if the opponent is not prepared for it, the deck can capitalize on their errors as well. In the games that I did manage to win or draw, especially the Maverick matchup, I often felt like the game was well under my control. Because of the prevalence of Maverick and Esperblade as of late, with their slower-than-combo approaches and extremely greedy manabases, I think that Lands could be well-positioned in today's meta.

The greatest challenge of the deck, as several others have already known and mentioned, is the slow pace of actually winning the game. In the older Intuition lists I used to run, even including just three Mishra's Factory alongside the Creeping Tar Pit made it seem so much faster to pull of victories. I miss the factories, but am almost certain that nothing can be cut from the list to fit a couple more in. How do you other players approach the time aspect playing Lands? Do you always try to win a single, extremely long Game 1? Once you lose Game 1, unless your opponent combo'ed out in a couple of minutes or you had the foresight and nerve to concede early enough, you are almost certainly not going to win the round, and could be lucky to even get a draw. Perhaps this deck is best thought of as an "only Game 1" deck?

I felt much more confident in the deck's color fixing running the Scrubland alongside five fetches. Enlightened Tutor and Dark Confidant need to be played early, and running less than 12 of either of the two color sources is too greedy for my tastes. Engineered Explosives was always a pleasure to see, and was one of my most searched for cards. I could see myself possibly even running a third (in the sideboard) for its sheer versatility.

The single Mishra's Factory seemed kind of useless; I will most likely replace it with a second Sensei's Divining Top. I am also not sold on the Grips, and have considered swapping them with Extirpates. Does anybody still play either Grip or Extirpate, or have any arguments for or against either? I could maybe keep the Grips and put Extirpates in the place of the second Chalice and the Mana Maze. Has Mana Maze proven to be a good piece of combo hate for anybody? Is it worth including Null Rod or Circle of Protection: Red? The silver bullets are my last pieces to settle on, so any thoughts or advice you might have are appreciated.

Despite the deck's slowness, I have been itching to play it competitively as of late and am thinking of running it at SCG: Phoenix. The Waste-Loam lock is a sweeping advantage against some of the top tier decks of the moment, and I think if I can manage the time in the round well enough, I could pull off a lot of Game 1 victories. I hope you enjoyed reading and hope you will give me some suggestions!

[cuthbertthecat]

The greatest challenge of the deck, as several others have already known and mentioned, is the slow pace of actually winning the game. In the older Intuition lists I used to run, even including just three Mishra's Factory alongside the Creeping Tar Pit made it seem so much faster to pull of victories. I miss the factories, but am almost certain that nothing can be cut from the list to fit a couple more in. How do you other players approach the time aspect playing Lands? Do you always try to win a single, extremely long Game 1? Once you lose Game 1, unless your opponent combo'ed out in a couple of minutes or you had the foresight and nerve to concede early enough, you are almost certainly not going to win the round, and could be lucky to even get a draw. Perhaps this deck is best thought of as an "only Game 1" deck?


I hear every player who plays and complains about lands talk about this, and I just don't get it. Granted, I play the deck pretty fast, but even if I were playing it at a slower pace I still feel game one is about impossible to lose against creatures assuming you've made proper deck, mulligan, and play decisions. I feel like a lot of lands players just durdle around in a fashion that doesn't advance the game or board state at all, and take a long time to do so. The next time you play this deck, evaluate how much advantage is gained from late game life from the loams. If the answer is only +2 cards, you need to re-evaluate how you're playing this deck.

[ESG]

Then out of nowhere, he drops an Armageddon. I did not know that Maverick played the card and did not see it coming at at all. Just goes to show how much about Legacy I've missed over the months.

Maverick usually doesn't play Armageddon. Also, splashing black for Extirpate and red for Punishing Fire is really loose for that deck. Then again, you were basically in the 0-3 bracket of a small local event, so anything could have happened.

On sideboarding, the Grips are primarily there to beat Leyline of the Void, although they're flexible enough to bring in for some other matchups. Extirpate is important in the mirror (basically nonexistent these days), against Reanimator, and against other decks running graveyard strategies. I tested Mana Maze long ago and didn't like it. Null Rod turns off your Mox Diamonds, which is bad. I have played Circle of Protection: Red in the past and won games with it.

[into_play]

I hear every player who plays and complains about lands talk about this, and I just don't get it. Granted, I play the deck pretty fast, but even if I were playing it at a slower pace I still feel game one is about impossible to lose against creatures assuming you've made proper deck, mulligan, and play decisions. I feel like a lot of lands players just durdle around in a fashion that doesn't advance the game or board state at all, and take a long time to do so. The next time you play this deck, evaluate how much advantage is gained from late game life from the loams. If the answer is only +2 cards, you need to re-evaluate how you're playing this deck.

I will definitely work to speed my play up, although I feel that my turns and decisions are made fairly quickly. I do not like to overly Loam; if I have enough lands to make my Exploration-allotted land drops, I will instead draw instead of dredging, in hopes of finding one of the nonland spells. If you have at least two Explorations in play, you do not make it a point to play all three lands a turn, right? Maybe drawing business is more important at a certain point. For me, the hardest decision seems to be at the point when I want to get to the Smokestack. I could draw it or a tutor, or keep dredging three cards a turn until it shows up to be retrieved by Academy Ruins.


Maverick usually doesn't play Armageddon. Also, splashing black for Extirpate and red for Punishing Fire is really loose for that deck. Then again, you were basically in the 0-3 bracket of a small local event, so anything could have happened.

On sideboarding, the Grips are primarily there to beat Leyline of the Void, although they're flexible enough to bring in for some other matchups. Extirpate is important in the mirror (basically nonexistent these days), against Reanimator, and against other decks running graveyard strategies. I tested Mana Maze long ago and didn't like it. Null Rod turns off your Mox Diamonds, which is bad. I have played Circle of Protection: Red in the past and won games with it.

I like having the Grips there for Pithing Needles as well. Do you bring the Grips in versus the Blade Control decks (to deal with Batterskull)? Or are Maze of Iths and mana denial usually enough defense?

The Extirpates feel necessary simply to have more than a single card to combat graveyard strategies, even though the Crypt is the go-to graveyard hate for the deck. I think they will stay in.

I think the Mana Maze will be taken out. I like that it is two mana, so it can be played the turn after a tutor, but this requires the difficult starting hand with a white source and blue source. Being an Enchantment also makes it appealing as well, to avoid the random Hurkyl's Recall and Rebuild in wishboard. But a good storm player should be able to get around it anyhow, and some storm decks could probably just throw in zero-mana artifacts in between their rituals and blue draw to simply get around it. Those combo decks are such a hard matchup anyway, so I might as well just strengthen other matchups with the Grips.

Thank you both for the help!

[cuthbertthecat]

I will definitely work to speed my play up, although I feel that my turns and decisions are made fairly quickly. I do not like to overly Loam; if I have enough lands to make my Exploration-allotted land drops, I will instead draw instead of dredging, in hopes of finding one of the nonland spells. If you have at least two Explorations in play, you do not make it a point to play all three lands a turn, right? Maybe drawing business is more important at a certain point. For me, the hardest decision seems to be at the point when I want to get to the Smokestack. I could draw it or a tutor, or keep dredging three cards a turn until it shows up to be retrieved by Academy Ruins.


I usually find myself dredging at every opportunity if there's a Tolaria West in graveyard and I don't have one in hand. It's like you draw business every turn, what's not to like? Obvious exceptions are when none of your zero drops can help you and academy ruins's extra turn of waiting will result in death.

On the issue of waiting to naturally draw a tutor over dredging a silver bullet, you have to a) look at how many tutors have been used up, then do the math and see if you're more likely to draw one of your remaining tutors or if dredging three to five random cards will give you a better chance at your silver bullet, and then b) evaulate if not dredging every turn will hamper your ability to advance the boardstate. Let's say that you have three intuitions and two enlightened tutors along with the one silver bullet you want to find left in a 45 card deck, a loam in trash, a t-west in trash, and an exploration in play. Here, you're more likely to hit a tutor/the bullet (6 cards total) in a draw step than you are to dredge a single silver bullet (about 13% v. about 7%), but dredging every turn allows you to t-west every turn, locking up the board against a creature deck and wrecking their manabase while still having a decent chance at dredging the silver bullet you need and increasing the chance you hit your silver bullet. There are exceptions, like when there's a scavenging ooze/other assorted yardhate in play, or you're staring down lethal and an ensnaring bridge found from an enlightened tutor with your in-hand tranquil thicket locks up the game, etc.

[into_play]

^ Sounds like a good idea to just use the statistical chance of drawing a tutor or the artifact versus dredging to the artifact. Of course, there are most likely thousands of different scenarios where one way would probably be better than the other, so I guess that just comes with experience. I too like to dredge every turn once a Tolaria West gets to the graveyard and I have the mana to abuse it.

[ESG]

I like having the Grips there for Pithing Needles as well. Do you bring the Grips in versus the Blade Control decks (to deal with Batterskull)? Or are Maze of Iths and mana denial usually enough defense?

I have in the past. The Mazes are great for defense, but you really don't want them to park a Batterskull in front of a Jace. (Factories are good vs. planeswalkers as long as they don't have a bunch of blockers.) You might play around with Beast Within, since turning Jace into a Beast is pretty great. Plan A is obviously for them to never reach 4 mana to cast Jace, but things don't always go according to plan.

As for the speed of the deck, Lands is really slow even if you're playing quickly. There's also the challenge of having an opponent. Even if you're playing fast enough, it's not a guarantee that you'll have enough time. Some opponents agonize over Tabernacle and Smokestack triggers, some get out a Top Turn 1 and spin it whenever you Port them, some don't know when it's better to concede than to play on. Some opponents are just always slow.

[sdematt]

The hardest variable to control when playing 43 lands is your opponent, I agree 100%. You can get as good as you want with the deck, but they're still allowed time to think, and since there's many things to do, they sit around quite a bit. You can play fast, but your opponent's speed is always the issue.

-Matt

[cuthbertthecat]

Just got back from SCG Des Moines, I went a disappointing 3-3 drop. Despite the lack of combo in the top 16, the metagame was actually very combo heavy. My losses were to TES, Spiral Tide, and RUG Delver (Game one, he drew a red source to go with his exactly lethal bolt the turn before he would be locked out of the game, game two I didn't really see anything and died to mongeese). My wins were against Dredge, Maverick, and Goblins. After the loss to RUG Delver, I want to incorporate some number of factories into the maindeck. The two big problems are a) what to cut, and b) I don't own foil factories.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Just got back from SCG Des Moines, I went a disappointing 3-3 drop. Despite the lack of combo in the top 16, the metagame was actually very combo heavy. My losses were to TES, Spiral Tide, and RUG Delver (Game one, he drew a red source to go with his exactly lethal bolt the turn before he would be locked out of the game, game two I didn't really see anything and died to mongeese). My wins were against Dredge, Maverick, and Goblins. After the loss to RUG Delver, I want to incorporate some number of factories into the maindeck. The two big problems are a) what to cut, and b) I don't own foil factories.

:cry:

[movingtonewao]

off topic a little here, but is it a big problem if you don't have foil factories?

whats the general rule for running foils btw...do you have to have a certain number of foil cards in your deck before its legal or something.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

off topic a little here, but is it a big problem if you don't have foil factories?

whats the general rule for running foils btw...do you have to have a certain number of foil cards in your deck before its legal or something.

Yes.

Foil > Non-Foil

[cuthbertthecat]

off topic a little here, but is it a big problem if you don't have foil factories?

whats the general rule for running foils btw...do you have to have a certain number of foil cards in your deck before its legal or something.

It's slightly an issue, because I've spent a lot of time foiling out the deck in its current form, so just throwing in some non-foils makes it much less awesome. I could play with a winter one and another one of some other season, but it isn't as cool.


Yes.

Foil > Non-Foil

Essentially, this. Only a fellow pimp can truly understand.

[into_play]

Just got back from SCG Des Moines, I went a disappointing 3-3 drop. Despite the lack of combo in the top 16, the metagame was actually very combo heavy. My losses were to TES, Spiral Tide, and RUG Delver (Game one, he drew a red source to go with his exactly lethal bolt the turn before he would be locked out of the game, game two I didn't really see anything and died to mongeese). My wins were against Dredge, Maverick, and Goblins. After the loss to RUG Delver, I want to incorporate some number of factories into the maindeck. The two big problems are a) what to cut, and b) I don't own foil factories.

That is a pretty rough lineup to face. I've always missed having factories whenever I had less than two; I would aim for three but have that exact same problem as of what to cut. How many Manabonds and SDT's are you running? I'm running two of each and have always been on the fence about swapping the second of each for factories. Manabond is probably fine as a 1-of, but the top just plays so well with the deck. Those would be the first two cards I might consider if I wanted the manlands back in.

[cuthbertthecat]

That is a pretty rough lineup to face. I've always missed having factories whenever I had less than two; I would aim for three but have that exact same problem as of what to cut. How many Manabonds and SDT's are you running? I'm running two of each and have always been on the fence about swapping the second of each for factories. Manabond is probably fine as a 1-of, but the top just plays so well with the deck. Those would be the first two cards I might consider if I wanted the manlands back in.

I could see cutting the manabonds; they're great against blue if you draw them with loam but you don't really want to draw them against maverick or without loam, and I already board them out for games two and three anyway.

[Malacoda]

Just got back from SCG Des Moines, I went a disappointing 3-3 drop. Despite the lack of combo in the top 16, the metagame was actually very combo heavy. My losses were to TES, Spiral Tide, and RUG Delver (Game one, he drew a red source to go with his exactly lethal bolt the turn before he would be locked out of the game, game two I didn't really see anything and died to mongeese). My wins were against Dredge, Maverick, and Goblins. After the loss to RUG Delver, I want to incorporate some number of factories into the maindeck. The two big problems are a) what to cut, and b) I don't own foil factories.

Sorry about your bad luck :P

The RUG thing is unfortunate and is why I've been able to justify Factories for a while (currently running 2). What's your current list? I had to squeeze in Factories myself a while back. I'm actually at 61 cards right now; don't know if you'd be comfortable doing that. I figure that I run 8 nontutorable cards in my entire 75 - 4 being Loam (since I run 0 Entomb/Intuition) and 4 being E-Tutor itself, so it's ok.


That is a pretty rough lineup to face. I've always missed having factories whenever I had less than two; I would aim for three but have that exact same problem as of what to cut. How many Manabonds and SDT's are you running? I'm running two of each and have always been on the fence about swapping the second of each for factories. Manabond is probably fine as a 1-of, but the top just plays so well with the deck. Those would be the first two cards I might consider if I wanted the manlands back in.

I used to run 2 Tops but found that I never really wanted more than 1 since they're a) fairly redundant and b) quite mana intensive. We generally don't want to clog up our turns with Top activations, though they do make our Loams better. I didn't want to cut it entirely for that reason as well as its synergy with Bob, but I think 2 is too many. Cutting Manabond is fine but keep in mind that having Manabonds makes the boarding process somewhat easier and that they really can just be a straight blowout G1.

[cuthbertthecat]

Sorry about your bad luck :P

The RUG thing is unfortunate and is why I've been able to justify Factories for a while (currently running 2). What's your current list? I had to squeeze in Factories myself a while back. I'm actually at 61 cards right now; don't know if you'd be comfortable doing that. I figure that I run 8 nontutorable cards in my entire 75 - 4 being Loam (since I run 0 Entomb/Intuition) and 4 being E-Tutor itself, so it's ok.



I used to run 2 Tops but found that I never really wanted more than 1 since they're a) fairly redundant and b) quite mana intensive. We generally don't want to clog up our turns with Top activations, though they do make our Loams better. I didn't want to cut it entirely for that reason as well as its synergy with Bob, but I think 2 is too many. Cutting Manabond is fine but keep in mind that having Manabonds makes the boarding process somewhat easier and that they really can just be a straight blowout G1.

My list is the same as before, but for reference

4 Exploration
4 Life from the Loam
4 Intuition
4 Mox Diamond
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Manabond
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Cursed Totem
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Zuran Orb
4 Maze of Ith
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
3 Tolaria West
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm

Sideboard:

1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Circle of Protection:Red
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Dark Confidant
3 Oblivion Stone

I think I'd be fine just cutting the manabonds, or at least one of them, especially because I still run intuition. I don't really tutor for manabond except for game one against blade variants if I have loam as I have silver bullets that are much better against Maverick and RUG (Totem and Bridge). Hell, against blade, you are usually fine without accelerants, especially so against the lists that don't run waste.

I could also shave an intuition and go up to 35 lands; I've done this in the past when NO Rug was big and I wanted Prahv, Spires of Order as an answer, and I didn't notice too much of a change in consistancy.

How are you liking 4 E-Tutor? I've always imagined it'd be clunky, but the last five matches against maverick I've played have gone to game three because one of the games has had me drawing little business, so it may well be right.

[movingtonewao]

Hi i'm just wondering what our options are when we're facing down a batterskull sitting in front of a jace g1? It happened to me once as I was testing with my friends blade deck and I wonder if its an autoscoop.

[Julian23]

Attacking past it with Creeping Tar Pit works quite well. You can also try to use Engineered Explosives to get rid off either the germ token or the usually low-casting-cost creature carrying Batterskull.

Make sure to tap down their white mana though to prevent them from exiling your best weapon against Jace.

[movingtonewao]

-posted this on mtgsalvation as well, but decided to post here to share my experience with you guys too-

Had a horrid time at a 32 man tournament today.

Round 1: esper stoneblade 2-0 win

G1: I slow rolled him and took my time to win game 1, knowing I'm having full control. Wasteland+loam basically got it for me. I did see lingering souls (answered by tolaria west + explosives) and stoneforge into batterskull (answered by mazes) but thats it. He started packing when 35 minutes have passed and he realised he was going nowhere.

G2: He brought in surgical extractions. At some point he extractions away my wasteland (instead of loam - huge play error on his part). I had the tranquil thicket in hand all game long so its irrelevant in the end. He played a jace at some point but he had to tap out to do so and it was in desperation (because he used the brainstorm), i already had creeping tar pit and mishra's factory by then so no problems. I just lock him up pretty much the same way i did in G1.

thoughts: insanely good matchup, no way we can lose this?

Round 2: high tide 0-2 loss

G1: I don't have chalices mainboard. Lose in double quick time. I notice he has candelabras.

G2: got him down to 5 life with a combination of double bob, ethersworn canonist, pithing needle naming candelabra. He force of wills my chalice on 1 at some point. Then before going off, he echoing truths my canonist and then thats it.

thoughts: ****, no chance at all.

Round 3: burn 0-2 loss

G1: showed him a chasm, asked him if he can beat it, he said yes and proceeded to use instant speed burns.

G2: play error (i thought i could transmute anytime but its only a sorcery), wanted to find my zuran orb but because of play error i could only do it a turn later. He responded to the transmute with 2 bolts and a fireblast and thats it.

thoughts: boarded in COP red and the tutor to find it, no luck

Round 4: high tide/severance belcher hybrid 0-2 loss

G1: no way to interact, lost via severence belcher on t3 or 4.

G2: lost again when he has 2 high tides in opening hand.

thoughts: nothing i could do

overall 1-3 drop...i had so many dead cards most games, maindeck cursed totem, tabernacle, maze of iths etc...

then somebody came over and said current metagame in my area is more towards control and combo....can someone recommend me a deck that can handle control and combo well? I should play that until the meta is more favourable toward playing lands again.

Dont get me wrong I'm not jumping ship, i love lands and all its just that maybe now isn't the right environment for me to play it.

@malacoda:
thanks for answering my PMs in really quick time, I hoped I could have done better to justify that.

[PollePotDK]

My list is the same as before, but for reference

4 Exploration
4 Life from the Loam
4 Intuition
4 Mox Diamond
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Manabond
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Cursed Totem
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Zuran Orb
4 Maze of Ith
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
3 Tolaria West
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm

Sideboard:

1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Circle of Protection:Red
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Dark Confidant
3 Oblivion Stone

I think I'd be fine just cutting the manabonds, or at least one of them, especially because I still run intuition. I don't really tutor for manabond except for game one against blade variants if I have loam as I have silver bullets that are much better against Maverick and RUG (Totem and Bridge). Hell, against blade, you are usually fine without accelerants, especially so against the lists that don't run waste.

I could also shave an intuition and go up to 35 lands; I've done this in the past when NO Rug was big and I wanted Prahv, Spires of Order as an answer, and I didn't notice too much of a change in consistancy.

How are you liking 4 E-Tutor? I've always imagined it'd be clunky, but the last five matches against maverick I've played have gone to game three because one of the games has had me drawing little business, so it may well be right.

In the above list - are there really only one card that's a win condition (Creeping Tarpit)? Isn't that a bit risky? Please enlighted me (note: I don't play Lands myself - just came around the tread and wondered :smile:)

[cuthbertthecat]

In the above list - are there really only one card that's a win condition (Creeping Tarpit)? Isn't that a bit risky? Please enlighted me (note: I don't play Lands myself - just came around the tread and wondered :smile:)

It seems that way, but game 1, your opponent is unlikely to exile Tar Pit if you play smart (not activating it into open white without a wasteland or zuran orb in play, etc.), and game 2, you have Dark Confidant and other utility dorks that can win you the game. Also, if for some reason Tar Pit is exiled game one, you can always win with Academy Ruins, stacking a Mox Diamond every turn until your opponent decks.

[Julian23]

In game1, Academy Ruins is a perfectly fine win condition if you run Ghost Quarter.

[PollePotDK]

Oki - so basicly go for the 1-0 win? - since the opp. will deck himself.

[cuthbertthecat]

Oki - so basicly go for the 1-0 win? - since the opp. will deck himself.

Pretty much, most smart opponents will scoop once they realize what you're doing though.

[cuthbertthecat]

New list, took out an intuition for a factory in the main and cut the sideboard ethersworn canonist for a chalice of the void. They're basically the same card against combo, with Chalice being relevant in other matchups. Considering cutting the maindeck totem for the second factory, RUG is currently more popular than Maverick, at least on the SCG circut, the totem would go in the board over the Phyrexian Revoker, another card that I rarely board in.

For reference:
4 Exploration
4 Life from the Loam
3 Intuition
4 Mox Diamond
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Manabond
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Cursed Totem
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Zuran Orb
4 Maze of Ith
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
3 Tolaria West
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Mishra's Factory

Sideboard:

1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Circle of Protection:Red
1 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Dark Confidant
3 Oblivion Stone

[LowBeyonder]

Cutting Canonist from the side is a mistake, IMO. She stops them from tutoring/wishing for an answer and casting it on the same turn and also turns sideways to provide a clock, something the deck badly needs against combo.

[Fuzzy]

First of all, that's my list (Any advice would be helpful, I didn't play the deck since November):

Bant Lands
23 Spells
4 Exploration
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
3 Intuition
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Manabond
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mindslaver

37 Lands
Mana Denial
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Dust Bowl
1 Ghost Quarter

Creature Control
4 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Draw & Tutor
3 Tolaria West
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Horizon Canopy

Colored Mana
3 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills

Kill Conditions
3 Mishra's Factory

Utility Lands
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas

15 Sideboard
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Pithing Needle
1 Cursed Totem
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Zuran Orb

My doubt right now is about the Canonists on sideboard. Since I have 4 E.Tutors in games 2-3 versus combo, should I "update" two Canonists for two Thalias? I don't know if I can board them against other matchups, but since the deck has 10 LDs, would it be more helpful?

[cuthbertthecat]

Cutting Canonist from the side is a mistake, IMO. She stops them from tutoring/wishing for an answer and casting it on the same turn and also turns sideways to provide a clock, something the deck badly needs against combo.

I think sideboarding cards specifically against combo with this deck is a mistake because any competent combo player should be able to beat the hate in the 10 turns that canonist gives them. I haven't beaten storm since november, and that instance was due to nut draws with zuran orb game one and exiling the tendrils game two.




My doubt right now is about the Canonists on sideboard. Since I have 4 E.Tutors in games 2-3 versus combo, should I "update" two Canonists for two Thalias? I don't know if I can board them against other matchups, but since the deck has 10 LDs, would it be more helpful?

If you want specific anti-combo hate, canonist is probably better than thalia because of the tutors and because with academy ruins canonist is better against discard.

[Fuzzy]

If you want specific anti-combo hate, canonist is probably better than thalia because of the tutors and because with academy ruins canonist is better against discard.

Thalia is good with Karakas, so I can protect her from spot removals. I don't get the point about Ruins - If I would transmute for it, I should probably just grab Chalice or Orb, and discard is only relevant in the cases where it is my starting hand.

I could bring Thalia in versus Stoneblade, Landstill and Show and Tell stuff (Maybe Dredge too, but no one play that). I think it's a more "generic" card to have anyway, but I'm still unsure about it.

[cuthbertthecat]

Thalia is good with Karakas, so I can protect her from spot removals. I don't get the point about Ruins - If I would transmute for it, I should probably just grab Chalice or Orb, and discard is only relevant in the cases where it is my starting hand.

I could bring Thalia in versus Stoneblade, Landstill and Show and Tell stuff (Maybe Dredge too, but no one play that). I think it's a more "generic" card to have anyway, but I'm still unsure about it.

The academy ruins thing doesn't come up often, but it does come up. In all reality, any single hatebear you play against combo won't beat them. As far as karakas saving thalia from removal, if they're trying to kill it you're probably dead if thalia leaves the table, it doesn't matter if it's in your hand or graveyard.

I don't really think you need the help thalia gives you against landstill or dredge which are already great matchups, but it is pretty interesting against show and tell. The matches I've won against them have been with waste-lock, but adding thalia could make a single wasteland backbreaking. I think if you have a lot of show and tell in your meta, thalia is a good board choice, probably as a 3-of, otherwise I wouldn't bother.

[Phelix]

I played storm combo twice, and beat it both times @GP Amsterdam, check my list a few pages back.

Storm is certainly beatable, if you dedicate the sb to it.

A bunch of bears inst 10 turns.

If it goes that long, you might as wel slaverGG. Remember your locking is mana away in every way, while is digging for answers

[Stoyrm]

played against Enchantress yesterday. I sided in the works of Oblivion Stone, Sylvok Replica (among other things). Turn 2 Stony Silence. -.-. Anyways, i saw that i actually have no answer to a Stony Silence. (I did win because of a turn one Dark Confidant and 4x Rishadan Port, but that can't happen everygame ^^). Anyone got any ideas here?

[GoldenCid]

played against Enchantress yesterday. I sided in the works of Oblivion Stone, Sylvok Replica (among other things). Turn 2 Stony Silence. -.-. Anyways, i saw that i actually have no answer to a Stony Silence. (I did win because of a turn one Dark Confidant and 4x Rishadan Port, but that can't happen everygame ^^). Anyone got any ideas here?

I understand siding in o-stone but with sylvok replica over krosan grip? Just because it's recurring artifact?

I wanna ask you guys if you have tested Memory's Journey to protect us from surgical extraction MU.

[Anen]

Krosan Grip? ^^

[GoldenCid]

Krosan Grip? ^^

I don't understand the question....

[Anen]

It was a suggestion to that question, didn't see your post ^^


Anyone got any ideas here?

[Stoyrm]

Krosan Grip? ^^

I guess sometimes the easiest is often the best :).

[cuthbertthecat]

played against Enchantress yesterday. I sided in the works of Oblivion Stone, Sylvok Replica (among other things). Turn 2 Stony Silence. -.-. Anyways, i saw that i actually have no answer to a Stony Silence. (I did win because of a turn one Dark Confidant and 4x Rishadan Port, but that can't happen everygame ^^). Anyone got any ideas here?

I don't think you should bother boarding cards specifically answer stony silence unless your meta is very enchantress heavy, but if you do I think Beast Within is a good option that could also be boarded against other decks as a catch-all.

[Stoyrm]

I don't think you should bother boarding cards specifically answer stony silence unless your meta is very enchantress heavy, but if you do I think Beast Within is a good option that could also be boarded against other decks as a catch-all.

My meta is actually very diverse. There's Elves, Dredge, CounterTop, Merfolk, Enchantress, Maverick, Canadian Threshold, Zoo, Burn, Hive Mind, High Tide, Armageddon Stax, NO Bant. It's not really a good meta for lands, but i've been dying to play it^^,. Krosan Grip might be fine as it deals with CB, Hive Mind and Chalice of The Void + Batterskulls. I can beat all the matchups, but it's not easy. So practice practice practice ^^,. Also, he plays Blood Moon. That card is a beating if he gets both stony and blood moon -.-. Stupid enchantress decks!

[GoldenCid]

For the 50% f your meta i think you are in advantage, aggro decks almost can't touch you. Anyway lands is a great deck but i need a good pilot and a "cold mind" to keep your pulse strong during the long lasting games (99%).
How does your looks like?

[cuthbertthecat]

My meta is actually very diverse. There's Elves, Dredge, CounterTop, Merfolk, Enchantress, Maverick, Canadian Threshold, Zoo, Burn, Hive Mind, High Tide, Armageddon Stax, NO Bant. It's not really a good meta for lands, but i've been dying to play it^^,. Krosan Grip might be fine as it deals with CB, Hive Mind and Chalice of The Void + Batterskulls. I can beat all the matchups, but it's not easy. So practice practice practice ^^,. Also, he plays Blood Moon. That card is a beating if he gets both stony and blood moon -.-. Stupid enchantress decks!

If you're running cursed totem and between 1-3 factories, elves dredge cbtop merfolk maverick thresh zoo stax and no bant should be favorible, with hive mind and tide being terrible and burn and enchantress being a bit on the fence, depending on your sideboard. It seems like a pretty nice place to run lands, although the constant losses to spiral tide and skill and tell would be irritating.

[Stoyrm]

If you're running cursed totem and between 1-3 factories, elves dredge cbtop merfolk maverick thresh zoo stax and no bant should be favorible, with hive mind and tide being terrible and burn and enchantress being a bit on the fence, depending on your sideboard. It seems like a pretty nice place to run lands, although the constant losses to spiral tide and skill and tell would be irritating.

Well. Getting that Cursed Totem just isn't enough at times, i only run 3 enlightened tutor so finding the bridge in time isn't to easy at times. However, i haven't played the deck enough. And this deck requires practice, as i've only played the deck for 2 weeks (and not much testing at that). However, i do like the deck a lot. Up until a month ago the meta was a lot worse though (due to TES, Nic Fit and other combo decks). People have been easing up on those though, so i might just be remembering the time when these decks were played a bit more ^^,. I expect my experiences with the deck wil change as i get to play it more :). Because the worst thing about this deck is mulliganing. Which hands do i keep, which do i mulligan? I just don't have enough experience to know which hands have what it takes (except the obvious ones) and which ones aren't good enough.

Also; Nic Fit and TES seems like the worst matchups imaginable -.-. I've played it a bit, TES feels beatable but Nic Fit definitely does not xD. Pulses, oozes and the works is putting a dent in me xD.

My Sideboard atm is:
1 Oblivion Stone
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Dark Confidant
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Circle of Protection Red
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ethersworn Canonist

My list is something in between of Cuthbert and Malacoda. I'm not playing intuition, but i am playing Cursed Totem. Also my list is running 2 Factories, and a Cursed Totem.

[GoldenCid]

I found Witchbane Orb a sweet card in different MU: improves burn and combo ( i run a heavy anti combo side). And Nic fit is awful but maybe Memory's Journey could help against those anoying oozes. Any way whay i love of this deck is that if you resolved and exploration/manabond, want comes next is almost non-countereable stuff!

[cuthbertthecat]

Well. Getting that Cursed Totem just isn't enough at times, i only run 3 enlightened tutor so finding the bridge in time isn't to easy at times. However, i haven't played the deck enough. And this deck requires practice, as i've only played the deck for 2 weeks (and not much testing at that). However, i do like the deck a lot. Up until a month ago the meta was a lot worse though (due to TES, Nic Fit and other combo decks). People have been easing up on those though, so i might just be remembering the time when these decks were played a bit more ^^,. I expect my experiences with the deck wil change as i get to play it more :). Because the worst thing about this deck is mulliganing. Which hands do i keep, which do i mulligan? I just don't have enough experience to know which hands have what it takes (except the obvious ones) and which ones aren't good enough.

Also; Nic Fit and TES seems like the worst matchups imaginable -.-. I've played it a bit, TES feels beatable but Nic Fit definitely does not xD. Pulses, oozes and the works is putting a dent in me xD.

My Sideboard atm is:
1 Oblivion Stone
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Dark Confidant
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Circle of Protection Red
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ethersworn Canonist

My list is something in between of Cuthbert and Malacoda. I'm not playing intuition, but i am playing Cursed Totem. Also my list is running 2 Factories, and a Cursed Totem.

I'm starting to think that Intuition + another tutor lands is just straight better than only E-tutor. I did a lot of testing today with just e-tutor, and I lost several favorable matchups because I died before I assembled a gameplan, a problem that intuition solves. I think that may be why you're having trouble with some of those favorable matchups; for example today I lost 2 matces to maverick in testing, when with Intuition and Tutor lands, I've lost only one match to maverick across countless tournaments of varying scales of competitiveness over the last 7 months.

You are correct that this deck is difficult, the best thing to do is find a friend who can stand some torture and playtest like a fiend. The more you play with this deck, the more tricks and synergies you find. I would also suggest switching to a build with Intuition and E-Tutor if you're having trouble finding relevant cards.

For mulligans, I always mulligan 7-landers, I don't keep hands with 2 or more pieces of acceleration without loam on hands with 6 cards or more, double-diamond with loam and only mana lands is a mulligan that deciptively looks like a keep, and I don't keep 7 card hands with only 1 tutor as a business spell and the rest lands. I'm pretty finnicky with my mulligans, but I think they're correct.

Nic fit is bad for us, but after the last several times I've played against it, I think it's beatable. They don't do anything, and not in the good way like us. TES is impossible, good pilots will be able to beat your LD. The last time I played against it, I wasted him 3 times and ghost quartered him, and he won with ease. The other time I played agaisnt it recently, he was able to beat chalice on 1 with waste lock. Just hope you don't get paired against it, or that they don't draw bounce.


I found Witchbane Orb a sweet card in different MU: improves burn and combo ( i run a heavy anti combo side). And Nic fit is awful but maybe Memory's Journey could help against those anoying oozes. Any way whay i love of this deck is that if you resolved and exploration/manabond, want comes next is almost non-countereable stuff!

Witchbane orb is pretty decent, but if you have sideboard space leyline of sanctity is a bit better because you naturally cast them on the same turn and can tutor for both of them, but leyline is free sometimes. If you're just dedicating one slot though, the orb actually seems pretty good. I wouldn't bother with journey though; if you have bob in your sideboard beating surgical on loam games 2 and 3 is pretty easy.

[cuthbertthecat]

After playing today at scg Madison and playing against 6 combo decks, I'm just finished with this deck. I just want to cast some hymn to tourachs for a while

[Anen]

I played lands this weekend too. I went 2-1 vs TA, 2-0 vs Burn, 1-2 vs Aluren, 2-1 vs Dredge and 0-2 vs UW Countertop Thopter.
It was my first game ever versus Aluren. The guy was running maindeck chain of vapor. G1 I got extremely lucky and found time to ghost quarter all his lands, he then ask "Do you wanna draw g1 and go to g2?" I said "No". He conceded. But I got raped g2 and g3. I SB Canonist and Bob but I guess that is one of the unwinnable combo you are talking about cuthbertthecat..