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Anen
04-23-2013, 09:49 AM
Five colors Lands takes 10th place at last SCG Open.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=55309

I love it <3

LegoEgo
04-24-2013, 07:14 AM
I know sphere is for combo match up, but it would be a bad match up anyway... so why make your MD worse against match up you can win almost every time and dont you leave your entire sideboard for combo. Sorry, but Im not agree with you on the bug and jund match up, especially against BUG. In this match up, you prefer to see a grove fire engine which controls almost the entire deck (DRS!!! Dark Confidant!!!) than loam engine on the beginning. You should be able to play Lands deck with one land drop per turn which is your worst scenario. Playing ONE Cursed Totem means anytime you play loam he can decay totem and remove your loams, ONLY punishing fire make Jund MU an "favorable" MU, but against BUG is really tough since he can protect his DRS. Using 4 grove 4 fire I can ensure to get rid of those creatures which are the ONLY ones I care on the metagame besides Ooze which I havent seen lately. Im just saying.... since players start using Pfire I have seen more lands on top16 than a year ago, why messing that up with unstable cards.... also... what happens if you dredge your single Cursed totem on early game? And dont say Academy ruins, because by the time you can get that totem back, probably DRS has already done a lot of destruction.

Look the thing is you´re probably right and the version with the spheres is crap. But I prefere to try things out but before labeling them crap. You are just assuming its crap and so do I if I say its not. And I dont say that. I test it, and when I come back with my ass kicked, you can say I said so.
And about the Totem, I only said I would run it in my E.-Tutor deck now, if I wanted to play that, because there is no punishing fire in it, because I was asked after an UGwb E.-Tutor Lands deck (not after a Punishing Fire list), but I also said that I think the Punishing Fire build is the best right now (I mean thats the reason I played it at GP Strasbourg).

For that 5c Lands list: its cool but I like Gamble way more right now than E.-Tutor (which is the only reason he plays white I think) but thats probably a taste decision.

guybrush3
04-26-2013, 05:41 AM
Has anyone tested playing it with Elspeth Tirel?

Anen
04-26-2013, 07:09 AM
Has anyone tested playing it with Elspeth Tirel?

It falls in the same category as Jace (except it need WW instead of UU). It is a planeswalker, i.e. non recurable with Academy and can't be protected with Chasm :s

guybrush3
04-26-2013, 09:18 AM
It falls in the same category as Jace (except it need WW instead of UU). It is a planeswalker, i.e. non recurable with Academy and can't be protected with Chasm :s

correct. I guess a black/white bitterblossom token deck would be better for it. However, some lands stolen from the 43 deck engine could work with her

TheBoozeCube
04-28-2013, 03:18 AM
Finally acquired a Tabernacle for my 12 Post deck, so my next project is to build Lands, which I've always thought looked fun to play. I'm still unsure about what type of build I want to go with (and I still need a set of Intuitions before I can get serious anyway). I have a few noobish questions, though:
1) How do you decide how many Manabonds to include? The lists seem like they're all over the place.
2) Has anybody ever tried Stensia Bloodhall? It seems like it might be good, since it doesn't require threshhold, hits planeswalkers, doesn't need to loop, and doesn't hurt you. Obviously more mana intensive and doesn't hit creatures though.
3) Has anybody ever tried Nephalia Drownyard? Lands seems slow enough that mill could be reasonable, and you can mill yourself to get Loam stuff.
4) Has anybody ever tried Thespian's Stage? Thinking it could be used for versatility (copying Mazes, Ports, duals, or manlands as needed).
5) Has anybody ever tried Candelabra? In 12 Post, I often use them to double Maze activations. In Lands, seems like you could also use it to double Port activations or for Academy Ruins/EE shenanigans. Worth a slot as a 1x?

Anen
04-28-2013, 08:16 AM
Finally acquired a Tabernacle for my 12 Post deck, so my next project is to build Lands, which I've always thought looked fun to play. I'm still unsure about what type of build I want to go with (and I still need a set of Intuitions before I can get serious anyway). I have a few noobish questions, though:
1) How do you decide how many Manabonds to include? The lists seem like they're all over the place.
2) Has anybody ever tried Stensia Bloodhall? It seems like it might be good, since it doesn't require threshhold, hits planeswalkers, doesn't need to loop, and doesn't hurt you. Obviously more mana intensive and doesn't hit creatures though.
3) Has anybody ever tried Nephalia Drownyard? Lands seems slow enough that mill could be reasonable, and you can mill yourself to get Loam stuff.
4) Has anybody ever tried Thespian's Stage? Thinking it could be used for versatility (copying Mazes, Ports, duals, or manlands as needed).
5) Has anybody ever tried Candelabra? In 12 Post, I often use them to double Maze activations. In Lands, seems like you could also use it to double Port activations or for Academy Ruins/EE shenanigans. Worth a slot as a 1x?

1) Between 0 and 2 Manabond is the rule, depending of which and how many tutors you are using.
2) Creeping Tar Pit does the same things for more damages and less mana.
3) Creeping Tar Pit is a better win condition because of 2)
4) Maze tends to go down to 3 with Punishing Fire build. Sure versatility is good, but do we need it? My answer would be no as we already have Tolaria West to find what we need in multiples.
5) Never tried it. If it is just to double Maze or do tricky shenigans, I would again say no. Our artefacts are lock pieces and have high impacts on the game, Candelabra does nothing by its own.

TraxDaMax
04-28-2013, 12:33 PM
1) How do you decide how many Manabonds to include? The lists seem like they're all over the place.
?

In my last build, before the deathrite era, I played 2 Intuition and 3 Enlightened Tutor, so only played one Manabond. And more like a back-up if for some reason my Explorations would be extirpated or something.
It's definately a card you could cut though, as it's usefulness is pretty random.
A hand like this:

Creeping Tar Pit; Wasteland, Fetch, Loam, Manabond, Maze of Ith, Fetch is pretty godlike.

A hand like this: Forest, Wasteland, Loam, Manabond, Crucible, Engineered Explosives, Intuition feels awkward.


I'm sure you could figure that out by yourself, but giving sample hands tends to give an even better idea of how good/bad a card can be.
Also, unlike Exploration, multiple Manabonds do nothing.

Phelix
04-30-2013, 01:35 PM
A hand like this: Forest, Wasteland, Loam, Manabond, Crucible, Engineered Explosives, Intuition feels awkward.

turn one waste.

turn two manabond w/0 activation, turn three cast loam? seems ok often

Oreia
05-02-2013, 11:11 PM
Hey guys, i'll play Punishing Fire Lands this weekend on the legacy Regionals, i found out that the Groves + P. Fire adds a lot of consistency to the deck.
Here is my list, i'd be very glad if someone could give some advices since i'm new to the P. Fire list.

// Lands
2 [A] Bayou
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [US] Forest (4)
1 [DIS] Ghost Quarter
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [WWK] Creeping Tar Pit
1 [LG] Karakas
3 [FUT] Grove of the Burnwillows
1 [A] Taiga
2 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [A] Tropical Island
3 [FUT] Tolaria West
3 [DK] Maze of Ith
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog

// Spells
3 [TE] Intuition
4 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [IA] Zuran Orb
4 [US] Exploration
4 [ZEN] Punishing Fire
1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 3 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker

I don't have any Gamble, so i cut the Gambles and Manabounds to add 2 E.E. 1 Crucible of Worlds and the 4th Punishing Fire(i know it's not optimal, but i don't know what to add instead of the 4th one)

The Revokers in the Sideboard is mainly against Show and tell(it Needles Sneak attack, Lotus Petal if needed) but i can bring in against Jace.deck too.
What should i change? or this list is good the way it is now? Thanks in Advance.

TraxDaMax
05-03-2013, 05:32 PM
turn one waste.

turn two manabond w/0 activation, turn three cast loam? seems ok often




Meh.. I think it's mediocre. With that hand you expose yourself to counterspells. A flipped delver with counter back up on loam, or a turn one deathrite predict almost certain death as you can't reliably build a board presence. Well that's atleast my opinion. I'd rather have a 4 card hand with 3 lands and a loam before keeping that hand.

edit: well not that bad but still.. I wouldn't be very pleased :)

cuthbertthecat
05-03-2013, 07:37 PM
Meh.. I think it's mediocre. With that hand you expose yourself to counterspells. A flipped delver with counter back up on loam, or a turn one deathrite predict almost certain death as you can't reliably build a board presence. Well that's atleast my opinion. I'd rather have a 4 card hand with 3 lands and a loam before keeping that hand.

edit: well not that bad but still.. I wouldn't be very pleased :)

I don't there are any 2 mana producing land, one of which is a green source, manabond loam hands that I would complain about. In the hand you posted, most cards are going to be awkward anyway. If you don't think you'll have time to cast the intuition, just manabond, pitch your hand, and start dredging aggressively; your deck is a really high density of lands, especially because you drew so many spells.


Hey guys, i'll play Punishing Fire Lands this weekend on the legacy Regionals, i found out that the Groves + P. Fire adds a lot of consistency to the deck.
Here is my list, i'd be very glad if someone could give some advices since i'm new to the P. Fire list.

I don't have any Gamble, so i cut the Gambles and Manabounds to add 2 E.E. 1 Crucible of Worlds and the 4th Punishing Fire(i know it's not optimal, but i don't know what to add instead of the 4th one)

The Revokers in the Sideboard is mainly against Show and tell(it Needles Sneak attack, Lotus Petal if needed) but i can bring in against Jace.deck too.
What should i change? or this list is good the way it is now? Thanks in Advance.

In the sideboard, I think you want Sphere of Resistance instead of Trinisphere because it does a bit more against Show and Tell while still being very good against Storm. It also comes down off of Mox+Land, which matters against Belcher-esque decks.

TraxDaMax
05-03-2013, 08:26 PM
I guess I've just encountered too many problems with those type of hands.
And with Manabond in general. I remember a long time ago I would advocate atleast having 2 Manabond in my deck, but after so many games and tournaments I felt the second was one too many, and often the one would feel bad. I liked it much better in the first versions of 43 lands, when the deck actually had that many lands ;)

KntrellCL
05-04-2013, 08:26 AM
manabond is just great con G1. if you drew it o your opening hand is good and it's better when you draw it on late game, recovering each turn you didnt play an extra land per turn.

I dont know why people complain that much. If I have manabond + intuition hand, i would play manabond after playing that intuition... especially if Im on the play. at least, I always play my deck without relying on exploration or diamond, it works just fine one land drop per turn waiting for exploration.

Intuition can take you out from difficult spots and you must cast it with board information for more expected value.

Zynque
05-14-2013, 05:49 PM
Hey guys!

This is my first post here on The Source although I have been reading this thread (and some others) for a long time.

I have always been a big fan of Lands and I've tried many different cards and iterations of the deck throughout the last years. I have not been able to play as much Legacy as I would have wanted due to the format not being very popular where I live, but still a tournament every now and then in other cities and I have not switched my deck of choice in quite a while.

The past weekend I was very happy to participate in the main event of Bazaar of Moxen in France and I ended up quite well, in 10th place.
Here is the decklist I used:

4 Exploration
2 Manabond
1 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
3 Intuition
3 Punishing Fire

2 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mox Diamond
1 Zuran Orb

1 Academy Ruins
1 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Rishadan Port
1 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Tolaria West
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills

SIDEBOARD:

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Dark Confidant
3 Sphere of Resistance

I don't remember all the matches very well so I thought I just post the matchups with results and afterwards commentating on a lot of cards, sideboarding and matchups more in general. Here we go:

Day 1:

R1: Jund 2-0
R2: RIP Miracles 2-0 (Rishadan Port is always king here, in the second game he never played a single spell with cmc2 or greater)
R3: TinFins 0-2 (He made short work of me g1, g2 i held a hand with hate on turn 2 and 3 but i got FTK:ed)
R4: BUG 1-1 (Some sort of control, do not remember now)
R5: RIP Miracles 1-0
R6: Jund 2-1
R7: Jund 2-0
R8: BURG Delver 2-0 (was pretty nervous here since I played vs Florian Koch who had a decktech with this deck on GP Strasbourg where he made top64. Starstruck! He didnt draw optimally though and its a good matchup in general)
R9: BUG Delver 2-0

Day 2: (7-1-1 after day 1)

R10: Sneak & Show 1-1 (managed to win g1 and would have won g3 but didn't have enough time, strange match)
R11: Maverick 2-1
R12: BUG Delver 2-1 (raced him with Creeping Tar Pit + Zuran Orb in g3, was fun, he had already used several Wastelands)
R13: RUG Delver 2-0 (best draws of the tournament for me, my opponent scooped g2 with no permanents in play after some devastating Wastelands and a Tabernacle when there was still 35 min left on the clock)
R14: Elves 1-2 (This is the guy who ended up in 2nd place, not a good matchup for me unfortunately. This match was my way into top8, and his)
R15: Junk 2-1

11-2-2 in total (which netted me a FBB Tropical Island)

First of all, I would like to thank all of you guys who contribute to this thread, without you I would not have dared to try the version with Punishing Fire. The thought of including the combo in Lands has struck me before but I have never really liked it because of all the spots it takes in the deck which in turn reduces our flexibility. And that is why I love this deck so much, we are able to do so many things with it and grind to infinity! :) And the version with Enlightened Tutor has further increased that flexibility. I tried that version in the Last Chance Trial on thursday but did put up horrible results. In addition, Enlightened Tutor was not as good as I wanted it to be. Too many times it was too slow or was just answered with an Abrupt Decay or something similar and I'm not willing to sacrifice that much tempo and cards if it gets answered too often. It's good in the combo matchups but then we can just sideboard an extra hate card or two since winning game 1 is just based on incredible luck anyway. The Ensnaring Bridge and the Crucible of Worlds (in addition to the Pithing Needle I like to play with E. Tutor) gets much worse without the tutor but sacrifices has to be made. In fact, I don't like the Crucible in general so I put it in the board and it might be right to just cut it altogether if you are running Punishing Fire.

The two Manabonds maindeck is awesome! It is very importent to win game 1 one against non-combo matchups since time is often an issue and most matchups become harder postboard (not RUG, lol). I can't stress enough how much you should not cut them :) As have been said many times before, they are not good in multiples so 2 is the right number. The 1-of Gamble is just there to compensate a little bit for the loss of flexibility, in addition I thought for a while if I should run the 4th Grove or the 4th Punishing Fire and Gamble just becomes both of them + the 5th Loam etc. I could stand behind a second copy but it is hard to make cuts, Intuition is so great as well and more reliable, i like the 3/1 split though. I run 61 cards so you can cut the Gamble or the Bojuka Bog to make it 60 if you want.

An other thing I would really like to recommend is the 2nd Explosives maindeck. It's always good and very often crucial for success and its nice to just draw it since there are many many things you want to tutor up with Tolaria West (such a broken card!) anyway, in addition 1 copy sometimes gets randomly exiled and then its nice to have access to the 2nd, this will happen more often now since Explosives is one of your few outs to remove Rest in Peace, exiling the artifact in the process.

Otherwise the main deck is pretty standard, Creeping Tar Pit is super good and I would like a second, maybe replacing the Bojuka Bog which was often irrelevant (though the black mana came in handy a few times). For now, I'll leave it as it is though. Speaking of graveyard hate, to me it seems pretty unnecessary to have some in the board. TinFins is too fast for your 1-of Tormod's Crypt to matter and Dredge is already a very good matchup, so is also more classic Reanimator. For the moment, I would recommend either a main deck Bojuka Bog just for the flexibility (since it can have fringe uses against some creatures and some random cards) or nothing at all.

Ok, now comes something which is very important. Lands players, myself included, have been used to that we have a good matchup against most fair decks. This is really not the case anymore if you run more classic versions in my opinion. Deathrite Shaman is a real threat and its companion Dark Confidant is also very good against us since it helps Jund or whatever to find the answers they need to pierce through our defenses. Actually, the aggro-control decks in general have just become better, though Merfolk is of course still lolstomp. We need an answer and that answer is Punishing Fire! The thing is that the BG decks (and some others) have a really threatening clock WHILE disrupting our main strategy. Even if Rest in Peace is a better card against us than Deathrite Shaman, the deck that runs it main deck does not put out the same amount of pressure, giving us more time to find the Explosives, in addition Explosives for two doesn't blow up Exploration! :) Abrupt Decay is also a problem since it has greatly increased the number of main deck answers to our enchantments and crucial artifacts. The good thing is, Abrupt Decay is very good in our deck as well and I would very much recommend 3 copies in the board. Some people argue that Krosan Grip is better because it only costs green and deals with troublesome expensive artifacts and enchantments. I don't see those expensive permanents that often, what I do see is strong creature decks with lots of disruption. It's so nice to have won game 1 and then sitting back witch access to a lot more removal, letting you able to keep a lot more hands. Don't forget that its one mana cheaper than Krosan Grip as well, that matters a lot. Puninshing Fire and Abrupt Decay have performed really really well together this tournament, that is all I want to say. Blood Moon is an issue but you can still get there almost as easy (it isn't easy in general though) as with Krosan Grip.
This might not be news for some people but the performance of the deck during this tournament really convinced me that this is the current situation. Of course, Lands is somewhat of a metadeck and it can never be run to success in a combo heavy meta, but we will never (never is a powerful word but you get my point) return to those glorious days where everyone played Goblins/Merfolk/RUG/UGx Counterbalance/etc, Deathrite Shaman is too good and he is everywhere right now, together with loads of other good creatures.

Punishing Fire is also a great wincon as well and a superb way of handling planeswalkers. It fits the theme of our deck by being an other card which is impossible to get rid of (except with graveyard hate).

To round out the sideboard, 4 Dark Confidant is industry standard and even if they have become worse due to Abrupt Decay and people nowadays keeping in more removal after sideboard, they are still great and awesome against combo and control. 4 Chalice of the Void is also recommended since they are so good in so many matchups. RUG, different kind of UWx control decks and combo comes to mind but I sometimes like to sideboard in 1 against many decks to tutor for with Tolaria West. It's worse against BUG but still good and i usually sideboard in a few. You can run one less if you play E. tutor. Sphere of Resistance is replaceable but it's so all-around and I don't know anything better except Thalia which is hard to run in the red lists. Trinisphere is too slow in my opinion but I would run 1 in a E. tutor build or perhaps 1 Nether Void instead. 7 anticombo permanents for two mana is pretty sweet though and much more clean. Mindbreak Trap is not for this deck in my opinion, too narrow and you have to keep it in your hand which this deck doesn't like, the same can be said for other non-permanent answers. Try cutting your Crucible and see what you feel, maybe its good to have there, maybe not.

I always sideboard out 2 Intuition, 2 Manabond (because these 2 are bad against graveyard hate) and the 2 lands I need the least. I like keeping in 1 Intuition for the topdecks, it still can be very good vs the "midrange decks". It often comes out though together with another land or the Gamble or some artifact. Glacial Chasm is pretty unnecessary in many matchups as well. Vs combo you sideboard much more but then there are also a lot more obvious cuts to make. I often keep in 1 Maze of Ith though, its often nice to have access to 1 with Tolaria West against most combo decks.

I will finish with a story from one of the matches which I found quite amusing, to compensate a little for the lack of tournament report. In round 5 I played vs UW Miracles and he scooped the first game after 10-15 minutes. The second game was veeeery long. At one point I thought i had the game sealed by playing an Engineered Explosives for 6 (only had 8 mana available in total) but with only 2 colors of mana to play around his Counterbalance and blow it up afterwards together with his Rest in Peace. I mean cmc6 doesn't really exist in UW Miracles so I felt safe right? But then that lucky bastard blindflips his 1-of Terminus that he has kept in!! :) I would never have kept that in if I was him but then again it paid off so who am I to blame? :) We both laughed after our amazement had settled but I was starting to get a little bit nervous since now my Explosives was exiled and he got initiative. I drew an Abrupt Decay a little later, blowing up his Rest in Peace and started Loaming but things didn't look good for me. He got out a Jace and an Elspeth which started to tick up. He ticked up Jace a few times before he started to Brainstorm every turn netting him a card and keeping his only cmc2 on top, a Counterbalance which prevented me from doing anything with my Loam and my Punishing Fire. With 8 minutes left on the clock he had Elspeth up on 8 counters and several tokens into play in addition to Jace on 4 loyalty. For some reason he wanted to fateseal me instead this turn and i knew that he drew his 2-drop every turn because he didn't have Top yet. On my turn I played Loam and he responds with a regular Brainstorm, of course wanting to put back his 2-drop in that way, but that gave me the window to just mow down his walkers with Punishing Fire in response. I didn't kill them, that would have required to much mana, but it bought me a lot of turns. In one of those turns I found an Abrupt Decay for his Counterbalance EoT and then it was over! :) Planeswalkers are no match for Punishing Fire! Big mistake from his part but I was happy! Still cannot believe that hilarious Terminus though :)

Perhaps there has been some redundant information for some of you here, but I wanted to make it enjoyable for everyone.
Thanks for reading! :)
Regards,

Jonas

Anen
05-15-2013, 06:17 AM
That was a very good read and congrats to your awesome performance :)

Wanderlust
05-23-2013, 02:46 AM
We just got a hell of an awesome win condition upgrade due to the M14 rules changes:

Dark Depths + Thespian's Stage is now a combo.

So excited.

Anen
05-23-2013, 11:28 AM
We just got a hell of an awesome win condition upgrade due to the M14 rules changes:

Dark Depths + Thespian's Stage is now a combo.

So excited.

Indeed it is :smile:

But I am not sure I will be playing it because I don't like that both cards do near to nothing individually.

Serbitar
05-23-2013, 11:56 AM
Took me a while to get it: You get a Depths copy without counters, choose to lose the original due to state-based effects and resolve the Marit-Lage trigger on the copy.
Seems neat, will try it. (Makes me a little less pissed about that rules change. ^^) The Stage isn't even totally useless on its own.

HPB_Eggo
05-23-2013, 12:28 PM
Stage/Depths as one-ofs actually does seem pretty strong. May have to put together my 43 Lands again for some testing...

Also, Stage is better on its own than it initially looks, I think, although I can't know without testing. Being able to copy a land in response to Wasteland seems solid in some edge cases, a la Glacial Chasm.

Stoyrm
05-23-2013, 06:35 PM
I also like the Stage/Depths. I've been thinking of cutting the black part (aka the tar pit and the confidants) for stage, depths and knight of reliquary in the sideboard. I'm a bit worried of the color needed for Knight, since you want to play it early, but it's quite a good card for our deck.

I could foresee a standard punishing fire list with enlightened tutor and intuition, just cutting the tar pit (cause the stage/depths gives you a reliable kill condition). And the Knights should in theory be pretty good after board, any thoughts?

Wanderlust
05-23-2013, 11:38 PM
I also like the Stage/Depths. I've been thinking of cutting the black part (aka the tar pit and the confidants) for stage, depths and knight of reliquary in the sideboard.

I could foresee a standard punishing fire list with enlightened tutor and intuition, just cutting the tar pit (cause the stage/depths gives you a reliable kill condition). And the Knights should in theory be pretty good after board, any thoughts?

I think Stage/Depths radically changes our deck's gameplan. For the first time ever, we don't have to laboriously assemble a hard lock (or many soft locks) to grind out wins. Now, we can just use our lock pieces to slow our opponents down long enough to assemble our (recurring) win condition. When that fails, we still have a powerful prison strategy as "plan B."

Tolaria West is now an uber-tutor for us. I'm going to test going up to 4. Even if it stays at 3, maximizing our consistency in producing the double-blue to transmute it makes a lot of sense to me. Which makes playing fewer colors better. Here are my justifications for cutting all colors besides Blue and Green:

Cutting Black
Dark Confidant was a necessary sideboard card before as a foil to graveyard hate (by serving us an alternate card advantage engine to Life from the Loam.) Stage/Depths doesn't rely on the graveyard, filling Dark Confidant's role as "answer to grave hate." Stage/Depths also massively eclipses Creeping Tar Pit as a kill condition or way to kill Jace. I'm confident black is no longer necessary.

Cutting White
I think we no longer need the Enlightened Tutors, since landing silver-bullets is now almost always initially inferior to just setting up Stage/Depths. Enlightened can't get either piece of that combo. I'd rather just go back to the olden-days of 3-4 Manabond, since often Exploration/Manabond are what I want out of my Enlightened Tutors anyways. Knight of the Reliquary is a bit of a conundrum, since I would love to play it in this deck, but ultimately it might be unnecessarily resource-intensive/slow. I believe that Tolaria West and some number of Crop Rotations will more efficiently assemble the Stage/Depths combo.

Cutting Red
Red gives us the Punishing Fires/Grove of the Burnwillows combo, which we needed before as an answer to Deathrite Shaman and Planeswalkers. However, now that we have a non-graveyard dependent Plan A, I would contend that Deathrite Shaman no longer requires a dedicated maindeck answer (we still have EE). Two of the most popular Deathrite Decks - Team America and Jund - have no maindeck answer to Marit Lage once it hits (their only way to stop Stage/Depths is Wasteland.) I will admit that Junk and the newfangled Deathrite-Blade decks could be scary if we cut Punishing/Grove, since they have both Swords and Deathrite... but, Punishing/Grove takes up a ton of slots. I think we can do without it now.


Here is my first stab at a U/G Lands deck. So far, I've only had time to test it against Jund, but to scarily positive results.


4 Life from the Loam
4 Exploration
3 Manabond

4 Intuition
2 Crop Rotation

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond

4 Thespian's Stage
2 Dark Depths (the second is in case the first gets eaten by Wasteland + Deathrite Shaman or something like that)
4 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Tolaria West
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Academy Ruins
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
4 Tropical Island

Sideboard:
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Cursed Totem
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Mindbreak Trap

HPB_Eggo
05-24-2013, 12:00 AM
I can't imagine four Stage being the right number. While it does have some fringe uses on its own, 9/10 times it does nothing that we particularly care about before Dark Depths. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the biggest thing that strikes me as odd about your list.

I'm also not sure why you wouldn't run more Crop Rotation. Now that the win condition is assembling a two-card combo, running eight tutors with Rotation and Tolaria West seems like the correct move, particularly when they also tutor up practically every other card in the deck we could want.

Can agree with cutting colors down, though. With a better and more compact win condition we don't really need E. Tutor or Confidant, and with proper use of EE we can still deal with a lot of the things Punishing Fire was great against.

Wanderlust
05-24-2013, 12:07 AM
I can't imagine four Stage being the right number.

You could very well be right. I went with 4 Thespian Stage because is means you will more consistently find it while dredging with Life from the Loam and when drawing naturally. It's also uncounterable, which Crop Rotation is not. It's not totally dead on it's own, which is why that's the 4-of of the combo, not Dark Depths. But there are certainly advantages to running fewer in order to up the Crop Rotation count.

thefreakaccident
05-24-2013, 01:57 AM
The stages are ports 4-7 and maze of iths 5-8... Although multiple stage hands without something worthwhile to copy and no diamond to pitch it would be a pain in the ass to muck... Perhaps you could go back into some number of the punishing fires/grove of the burnwillows slots? It would give you yet another worthwhile land to copy off the stages. I would never play a version of lands without red, you always need non-red basics and red in lands to maneuver around bloodmoon.

HammafistRoob
05-24-2013, 02:10 AM
Holy hell that list is sweet. Maybe Expedition Map just got better here? Have you tried to up the land count? Possibly eschewing the Intuitions?

Wanderlust
05-24-2013, 02:18 AM
Holy hell that list is sweet. Maybe Expedition Map just got better here? Have you tried to up the land count? Possibly eschewing the Intuitions?

Expedition map looks awesome, but I can't tell right now what/if anything could be cut for it. Do you think there would be a reason to run Expedition Maps before maxing out on Crop Rotations?

At the moment I'm pretty sold on 4x Intuition, as Intuition for Stage + Depths + Loam is insane.


I would never play a version of lands without red, you always need non-red basics and red in lands to maneuver around bloodmoon.

I agree about basics, thus the singleton forest. I don't follow the second part, though - how does having red sources help us play around Blood Moon? Blood Moon even shuts off the ability to recur Punishing Fires with Grove.

HammafistRoob
05-24-2013, 02:51 AM
I would max out Crop Rotation first most likely since it's one mana instead of three and lets us combo out at instant speed. Or nab any utility land IN PLAY at instant speed for that matter. Just trying to keep ideas flowing is all, I haven't played lands in ages but that has to change now.

Wanderlust
05-24-2013, 03:08 AM
I would max out Crop Rotation first most likely since it's one mana instead of three and lets us combo out at instant speed.

Yeah, makes sense, I agree.


I can't imagine four Stage being the right number.

I thought about this again from another angle. In the 4- and 5-color versions of the deck that have placed well recently, there are generally 14 slots devoted to lands that, on their own, only produce mana. I'm including Grove of the Burnwillows in this count, since on it's own, it's just a bad Taiga. In the UG build I'm proposing, there are 10 lands that only produce mana + 4 Thespian Stages, a directly comparable number. So, think about it this way: Grove of the Burnwillows is pretty lackluster without Punishing Fire, just as Thespian's Stage is pretty lackluster without Dark Depths. The former combo can nuke small creatures, can kill an opponent in about twenty turns, and is dependent on the graveyard, whereas the later can win in one turn and isn't dependent on the graveyard. If spending 6 slots on Punishing/Grove was worthwhile, I have absolutely no qualms spending 6 on the Stage/Depths combo. (I will admit that Punishing Fire is better on it's own than either half of Stage/Depths. But I think the point still stands.)

Anen
05-24-2013, 06:03 AM
I am not sure this is the right approach. I would not cut black, because if Marit get bounce/Sword and Depths exiled by some grave hate, you are still fucked as hell without an alternative engine.
I am playing Lands because I want to win long games, and not with a combo no matter how efficient it is. If I wanted, I would have tried to include Painter/Grindstone sooner because it is also recurable in our deck (even it if it more likely to be counterspelled than Stage/Depths).
Maybe today the combo Stage/Depths is fitting better in a BUG Shell, like the BGW Junk/Hexmage we had during Mental Misstep era. But this is another deck..

Zynque
05-24-2013, 09:00 AM
Will be very interesting to try out this new combo, however do ask yourself if it is really needed. I for sure will try out a version with just one of each land. In my point of view you can take one of three paths:

1. Leave the deck as it is
2. Stick to the original strategy, but run 1 of each land to tutor for, we have many tutors and more copies are pretty terrible since both of lands are bad individually. I guess Thespian's Stage can have some uses but it is slow and costs much, not really what you want to see in your first few turns. If you feel that you are not able to steal wins here and there before you have attained absolute control, return to 1.
3. Go all out combo deck with Crop Rotations, Living Wish, 3 Thespian's Stage, 1 Dark Depths and definitely more disruption and abandon the Lands-strategy, perhaps keeping smaller parts of the old shell like Mox Diamonds, Loam, Exploration and mana disruption.

To do anything between 2. and 3. just seems silly, you want to have one main strategy to focus on. Having two is perhaps more fun, but not in the long run since you will win less.

If you go with 2. then I really liked the idea of cutting black and adding Knight of the Reliquary to the board instead of Dark Confidant, will definitely try that out! Thanks! (however I think a version without Tar Pit is not very good, perhaps just add a Savannah but still keep the Bayou, we'll see)

HPB_Eggo
05-24-2013, 11:21 AM
IMO option two with four Crop Rotation/Tolaria West and 1 each of DD and Stage is probably the way to go. Can keep most of the deck the same way, but if you happen to have a hand with one piece and a tutor you either win or they have to deal with both the creature and one of the two lands.

Regardless of what else happens, a lands-only combo that flat-out wins games against some decks at the very least belongs in the SB. It will be useful against decks that can't easily deal with it, and is pretty much always a faster clock against combo decks to back up Chalice and whatnot - plenty will side bounce, but if they're bouncing a recurable 20/20 rather than hate you've probably won.

Stoyrm
05-26-2013, 10:58 AM
Spells 25
4 Life from the Loam
4 Exploration
3 Intuition
3 Punishing Fire
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Zuran Orb
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond
1 Manabond
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Enlightened Tutor

Lands 36
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Maze of Ith
3 Tropical Island
3 Tolaria West
3 Fetches
2 Thespian's Stage
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Taiga
1 Dark Depths
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

This is my newest list; And the combo is the reeeeal deal. It's very good and gives you a reasonable kill quite quickly, which is why i have cut Glacial Chasm, you just don't need it anymore. I am unsure whether or not one should make a "combo" shell, with more ways to tutor, i found it was good enough already. I'm not a big fan of the Enlightened Tutor anymore, but i am going to have some Knights in the board, i wonder if you could cut 2 Tutors (put them in the board) for 2x chalice in the main, but it does stop your explorations. I wasn't sure i wanted Zuran orb, but it believe we need a Lifegain spell anyway.

Tao
05-27-2013, 08:53 AM
Glacial Chasm + Thespian's Stage seems pretty sweet.

- in general it makes the Upkeep/Sac a Land drawback much easier to handle. Copy the Chasm in response to the Cumulative Upkeep trigger for another turn under Chasm, without a big investment.
- just having a stage out is great if you are all-in on Chasm against a deck with Wastelands so even if they topdeck a Wasteland you can just copy the Chasm.
- against Burn you can lock them with two Thespian's stages + Chasm and never letting go of it. Just always copy it in response to the Upkeep and let the other die. That way they can't kill you with PoP in between Upkeep and first main phase. They have 0 answers to that in their main deck and very few in their SB.

Stoyrm
05-27-2013, 09:32 AM
Glacial Chasm + Thespian's Stage seems pretty sweet.

- in general it makes the Upkeep/Sac a Land drawback much easier to handle. Copy the Chasm in response to the Cumulative Upkeep trigger for another turn under Chasm, without a big investment.
- just having a stage out is great if you are all-in on Chasm against a deck with Wastelands so even if they topdeck a Wasteland you can just copy the Chasm.
- against Burn you can lock them with two Thespian's stages + Chasm and never letting go of it. Just always copy it in response to the Upkeep and let the other die. That way they can't kill you with PoP in between Upkeep and first main phase. They have 0 answers to that in their main deck and very few in their SB.

Yes it's very good with Chasm, but in most games i don't think it's worth it. If your local metagame has a lot of burn then this changes. I just don't think it's worth it against most other decks. I'm probably leaving it in my board for now, i believe that against most other decks they either have an answer for it or Zuran Orb does the same thing.

barcode
05-27-2013, 07:01 PM
I've been running Drownyards as an alternate win condition to Creeping Tar Pit, primarily to deal with the Counterbalance decks that were rampant in my area before Abrupt Decay. It didn't matter if they had their lock, I could beat them with recurring Moxes or EE and drowning them out. They would always plow the Tar Pit and I couldn't depend on having a Zuran Orb, Wasteland or Ghost Quarter handy to save it. I've been pretty happy with the Drownyards and have only drown one person out completely, everyone else concedes.

I'll be picking up the Dark Depths/Thespian's Stage combo with M14 as like most of you. I've been toying with Dark Depths, Volrath's Stronghold and Hexmage but found it too unstable. I'm happy that we can close out the game much more quickly now with only lands. To make room for Thespain's Depths (or Dark Stage, if you will) I've cut out the Creeping Tar Pit and the Oblivion Stone.

Here's what I'll try out for M14 rules:

21 Spells

4 Exploration
4 Mox Diamond
3 Life from the Loam
3 Intuition
2 Punishing Fire
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Manabond
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Zuran Orb


39 Lands

4 Rishadan Port
3 Wasteland
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Tolaria West
3 Tropical Island
3 Maze of Ith
2 Nephalia Drownyard
1 Bayou
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Academy Ruins
1 Dark Depths
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Taiga
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth


Sideboard:

1 Cursed Totem
4 Dark Confidant
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives

OneBigSquirrelGod
05-28-2013, 08:57 PM
What has happened to this deck as far as being a control deck? The point was to kill them slowly? I understand Stage and Depths can be a quick kill, but if this was an aggressive deck, shouldn't you not put all your eggs in one basket? Why not assemble a more aggro strategy? All it takes is a STP to kill the Marit token. Why not run more Manabonds, and Factories...? I don't think it's a good idea at all, but it seems like that could be the better way to utilize the combo...?

barcode
05-28-2013, 09:37 PM
What has happened to this deck as far as being a control deck? The point was to kill them slowly? I understand Stage and Depths can be a quick kill, but if this was an aggressive deck, shouldn't you not put all your eggs in one basket? Why not assemble a more aggro strategy? All it takes is a STP to kill the Marit token. Why not run more Manabonds, and Factories...? I don't think it's a good idea at all, but it seems like that could be the better way to utilize the combo...?

I see my build as a control list, the one card out of place is Dark Depths. At worst Stage will copy a utility land, turning into my 4th Maze or a Glacial Chasm on upkeep.

I don't like going all in on the Stage/Depths because it makes us fragile. Instead, I see Depths as an incidental card that's tutorable and recurrable. I don't care if they have a plow because my goal is to lock their resources down as before and then go for the kill. But who were you talking to exactly? :)

OneBigSquirrelGod
05-28-2013, 10:00 PM
I see my build as a control list, the one card out of place is Dark Depths. At worst Stage will copy a utility land, turning into my 4th Maze or a Glacial Chasm on upkeep.

I don't like going all in on the Stage/Depths because it makes us fragile. Instead, I see Depths as an incidental card that's tutorable and recurrable. I don't care if they have a plow because my goal is to lock their resources down as before and then go for the kill. But who were you talking to exactly? :)

Nobody in particular. Just reading through the last page makes me think everybody's jumping shi to this new combo. It's not just this thread either. I know opinions only go so far, but the combo doesn't do a whole lot of justice for the deck. The deck already works great in all forms, it seems like adding the 2 lands takes away from the full potential of Lands. I want that 4th Maze to not die to creatures more frequently. I want that 4th wasteland to help lock RUG and BUG out of the game. I feel adding this just makes more matchups worse than it makes any better.

So you can Manabond into the combo t1 and kill them t2, that's pretty cool... but you should never go full retard.

barcode
05-28-2013, 10:33 PM
Nobody in particular. Just reading through the last page makes me think everybody's jumping shi to this new combo. It's not just this thread either. I know opinions only go so far, but the combo doesn't do a whole lot of justice for the deck. The deck already works great in all forms, it seems like adding the 2 lands takes away from the full potential of Lands. I want that 4th Maze to not die to creatures more frequently. I want that 4th wasteland to help lock RUG and BUG out of the game. I feel adding this just makes more matchups worse than it makes any better.

So you can Manabond into the combo t1 and kill them t2, that's pretty cool... but you should never go full retard.

I've found that access to Punishing Fire is way better than the 4th Maze and 4th Wasteland for creature matches and it's also one of the only ways to deal with a Deathrite Shaman that doesn't require oodles of effort.

That said, I can't wait to live the dream of a turn 2 kill with Manabond. :tongue:

Stoyrm
05-29-2013, 07:05 AM
What has happened to this deck as far as being a control deck? The point was to kill them slowly? I understand Stage and Depths can be a quick kill, but if this was an aggressive deck, shouldn't you not put all your eggs in one basket? Why not assemble a more aggro strategy? All it takes is a STP to kill the Marit token. Why not run more Manabonds, and Factories...? I don't think it's a good idea at all, but it seems like that could be the better way to utilize the combo...?

2 cards changed does not an aggro deck make. If the token is STPed, then you play the land again; It's a GRINDY engine. It's very hard to get rid of, and you have to think about when to play your cards; it's like not letting your Academy Ruins into the graveyard when there's a DRS on the table. I've been testing with 2 Thespian's Stage and 1 Dark Depths, and it gives you a lot of speed which you can utilize to defeat decks that you usually have trouble beating. The stages work as your Maze 4-5, Taiga 2-3 (for punishing fire), Port 5-6. With the limited testing i've doen i think it's been amazing. Don't hate on something just because you don't like it.

If it turns out to be terrible, then so be it. But if someone STP's your token you get 20 life. And you can just replay the lands. Against Karakas, you have Wasteland. If the depths is removed you can just kill them with Punishing Fire. I might have to make some changes to my list though, i do think that the Creeping Tar Pit could be great as well; cause you could copy it with the Stage and hit for 6 a turn.

cuthbertthecat
05-29-2013, 04:43 PM
As far as stage/depths goes, I'm not sure what matchup gives us that much time that isn't already a good matchup. Is it supposed to help the combo matchup?

Claymore
05-29-2013, 04:59 PM
It helps the ones where you go to time

barcode
05-29-2013, 05:17 PM
As far as stage/depths goes, I'm not sure what matchup gives us that much time that isn't already a good matchup. Is it supposed to help the combo matchup?

Stage/Depths is a proactive thing to be doing that the opponent must disrupt or they'll be dead in very short order. We can recur the pieces very easily and potentially serve up a 20/20 every turn that must be answered. This, to me, is miles better than a 3/2 unblockable.

Keiichi.the.Otaku
05-29-2013, 05:57 PM
Stage/Depths is a proactive thing to be doing that the opponent must disrupt or they'll be dead in very short order. We can recur the pieces very easily and potentially serve up a 20/20 every turn that must be answered. This, to me, is miles better than a 3/2 unblockable.

I see it as a cheap replacement for the big wincons of the past (like Mindslaver). I plan to use it in conjunction with Tar-pit to shore up my ability to end games that I have a tentative hold on. Tar-pit has the added utility of being useful for sneaking past difficult to remove blockers and shrinking Planeswalkers, but I cant tell you how many times I've had the game under control for 5 or 6 turns, only to see my opponent find the hate card or bomb that turns the game around just before I can seal the deal. 3 damage a turn isn't good enough against a strong opponent, especially if they stole game 1 and you cant afford to let the next two go to time.

Lands will never be a combo deck, but an inexpensive and easily tutorable way to both steal some games and end others quickly is something that I've been wanting for a long time.

Stoyrm
05-29-2013, 06:47 PM
As far as stage/depths goes, I'm not sure what matchup gives us that much time that isn't already a good matchup. Is it supposed to help the combo matchup?

I believe it's effect is twofold. It's good against our good matchups and gives you a kill exactly when you want it. Time can be of the essence with this deck, with the stage/depths you can lock out a game way faster than earlier. Secondly it gives us a proactive tool, that requires answering (as someone else mentioned). Against a combo deck, it might be fast enough, sometimes we are able to lock the game down for a couple of turns, being able to get a win con at that time can be essential to winning a game. Especially if you go for a route with Crop Rotation, which i have not yet tried.

Lastly, it's a combo that fits into our deck, we are already playing tutors for lands, and it doesn't take up many slots.

Zynque
05-29-2013, 10:13 PM
Question is, what did you remove to make room for the combo and why those?

Crop Rotation is a cool card, not a good one though (in this deck), I'll try to elaborate in another post later.

Stoyrm
05-29-2013, 10:34 PM
Question is, what did you remove to make room for the combo and why those?

Crop Rotation is a cool card, not a good one though (in this deck), I'll try to elaborate in another post later.

I removed the Creeping Tar Pit (because with the new combo i just don't need it to clock anyone, and planeswalkers are better dealt with using Punishing Fire). I also cut the Bayou (since i am not using Black anymore, but it could easily be the savannah, if you wish to keep black instead of white). I played with both white and black earlier. White for Enlightened Tutor and Knight in the Board, but i guess you could just as easily have the confidants in the board. At the moment i also cut a Glacial Chasm (for a second stage), but it might not be necessary, gonna have to do some testing here though :).

The choices for me are:
Cut white (Enlightened Tutor, and Knight of the Reliquary + Ethersworn Canonist in the board).
Cut Black (Dark Confidant in the board and perhaps abrupt decay).

As of right now i'm gonna be trying a list with white in the SB for E Tutor, Knight and Ethersworn. Playing 1 of Stage and Depths, a Chasm and 2 Chalice in the Main.

barcode
05-30-2013, 07:35 AM
Question is, what did you remove to make room for the combo and why those?

Crop Rotation is a cool card, not a good one though (in this deck), I'll try to elaborate in another post later.

I cut Creeping Tar Pit and Oblivion Stone. I was never very happy to draw O-Stone and most times I'd rather have Engineered Explosives (which I can transmute for).

I'm not playing Crop Rotation or any fancy things that others have suggested. I'm also playing 39 lands total.

Zynque
05-30-2013, 09:43 AM
Interesting. You have probably considered the same cards that I have.

I do want to keep the Creeping Tar Pit for now though, it has been too good so many times and it's easier to assemble and protect than Stage + Depths (since you can Port a white source both on their turn and on your own afterwards to protect Tar Pit from Plow if you wanna kill a planeswalker etc). This makes me doubt a little bit in Stage/Depths since the only thing it does better than others is to kill a player more quickly, something that often isn't very needed. However there have certainly been times in matches where you have been given a small window to deal damage (or whatever you want) and testing will determine how useful it will be. It is still too slow against combo with the exception of being very lucky from time to time.

As an avid lover of Enlightened Tutor, I have unfortunately come to the conclusion that Punishing Fire is the way to go in the current meta. This has led me to cut Crucible, which I think is fine (since it is very unreliable). With the inclusion of Depths/Stage I will probably also cut Ensnaring Bridge and move that to the board. It didn't do much at BoM anyway, without Enlightened Tutor you don't have that good access to it and there is always better piles to make with Intuition imo.

The second card will be Bojuka Bog, which hasn't done enough work. Maybe I will put it or a Tormod's Crypt in the board, we'll see, it depends from time to time I guess. I also want to cut a fetch (running 4 atm) for an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. Cutting green sources is never a good idea, but I have always been very fond of Urborg and since we are adding yet another non-mana producing land maybe it's time. I'm still running Glacial Chasm since it's so unanswerable in certain matchups, often board it out though.

Regarding Crop Rotation, what do you gain by adding that card? Speed and consistency to assemble the combo? Yes, sure. But you have to acknowledge that there are lots of very common cards in Legacy that fights the combo. Wasteland, Stifle, Sword to Plowshares, blockers and heaps of hate cards can cause a lot of trouble...or can they? The Lands deck can handle every problem (though Blood Moon often takes a lot of time hehe) and the two most common are the easiest to handle (Wasteland and Plow), BUT, but we need time to set up the solution which is my argument that speed and consistency, which Crop Rotation provides, is most often not desired. It can do some other cool stuff but all of them are irrelevant in the end.

What do you lose by running Crop Rotation? Speed and consistency to assemble CONTROL? Yes.

Zynque
05-30-2013, 10:03 AM
Just in general, I would really recommend to run 2 Engineered Explosives main, you'll never regret it :)

barcode
05-30-2013, 10:19 AM
Interesting. You have probably considered the same cards that I have.

The problem is there is so much utility and value in the deck that it's hard to come to terms with shaving numbers or cutting things down. My list only runs three Wastes and Loams. Heresy! But the second Loam isn't as good as the first and it's easy to get stuff done with three. This is the time to take a hard look at the utility cards in the deck and figure out what's needed. Playtesting is important.



I do want to keep the Creeping Tar Pit for now though, it has been too good so many times and it's easier to assemble and protect than Stage + Depths (since you can Port a white source both on their turn and on your own afterwards to protect Tar Pit from Plow if you wanna kill a planeswalker etc). This makes me doubt a little bit in Stage/Depths since the only thing it does better than others is to kill a player more quickly, something that often isn't very needed. However there have certainly been times in matches where you have been given a small window to deal damage (or whatever you want) and testing will determine how useful it will be. It is still too slow against combo with the exception of being very lucky from time to time.

I thought long and hard about the utility of Tar Pit for taking out a Jace or Liliana or even Tezzeret and came to the conclusion that I am alright leaning on Punishing Fire to keep Planeswalkers in check. The potential net gain of one-shotting the opponent with a 20/20 flier is too great. That said I'm trying to find room for a third Punishing Fire.



As an avid lover of Enlightened Tutor, I have unfortunately come to the conclusion that Punishing Fire is the way to go in the current meta. This has led me to cut Crucible, which I think is fine (since it is very unreliable). With the inclusion of Depths/Stage I will probably also cut Ensnaring Bridge and move that to the board. It didn't do much at BoM anyway, without Enlightened Tutor you don't have that good access to it and there is always better piles to make with Intuition imo.

It's funny. I've never been a fan of E-tutor in Lands because it's too easy to dredge away the Tutors and we can't recur Enchantments (without E-wit+Volrath's Stronghold and that has marginal value). It would be sweet to have but I feel it's being "too cute". Give me Tolaria West and Intuition any day. :) Punishing Fire is too good not to play and it's an answer to Deathrite Shaman and can't get Abrupt Decayed like Cursed Totem. I'm not sure about moving Bridge to board, but my meta is chock full of Sneak and Show. Hiding behind a bridge is important.



The second card will be Bojuka Bog, which hasn't done enough work. Maybe I will put it or a Tormod's Crypt in the board, we'll see, it depends from time to time I guess. I also want to cut a fetch (running 4 atm) for an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. Cutting green sources is never a good idea, but I have always been very fond of Urborg and since we are adding yet another non-mana producing land maybe it's time. I'm still running Glacial Chasm since it's so unanswerable in certain matchups, often board it out though.

Regarding Crop Rotation, what do you gain by adding that card? Speed and consistency to assemble the combo? Yes, sure. But you have to acknowledge that there are lots of very common cards in Legacy that fights the combo. Wasteland, Stifle, Sword to Plowshares, blockers and heaps of hate cards can cause a lot of trouble...or can they? The Lands deck can handle every problem (though Blood Moon often takes a lot of time hehe) and the two most common are the easiest to handle (Wasteland and Plow), BUT, but we need time to set up the solution which is my argument that speed and consistency, which Crop Rotation provides, is most often not desired. It can do some other cool stuff but all of them are irrelevant in the end.

What do you lose by running Crop Rotation? Speed and consistency to assemble CONTROL? Yes.

I don't know about Tormod's Crypt. Good players can play around it and they often do. We may not be fast enough to take advantage of the tempo gain. It's not a land either. I've been running 3 fetches for a while and it feels right, the Urborg is needed, in my opinion, to turn Tabernacle, Depths, fetches and even Mazes into mana sources. Glacial Chasm is another card we can't cut from the main deck because Burn just can't win (it gets better when we can copy it with Stage after the real one has 6 counters).

Crop Rotation doesn't have a place in a controlling deck, I feel. It may make sense in a full out combo deck, but here, it feels wrong.

I'll be getting some testing in this evening (if the guys are willing to deal with Lands...mwahahaha) and if it's useful I'll report in.

Oreia
05-30-2013, 05:55 PM
I agree with cuthbertthecat , Zynque and OneBigSquirrelGod, maybe the combo is not what the deck needs... But it certainly kills storm before they think they've died... haha
I made some changes in my list, i was running Raven's crime alongside with punishing fire(No Regrets, my field is filled with 12 Post, Aggro Loam, Show and tell and Shaman variants, both cards have been amazing) and maybe i should try the DD combo, here is my sketch.

// Lands
2 [A] Bayou
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [DIS] Ghost Quarter
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [WWK] Creeping Tar Pit
1 [LG] Karakas
3 [FUT] Grove of the Burnwillows
1 [A] Taiga
2 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [A] Tropical Island
3 [FUT] Tolaria West
3 [DK] Maze of Ith
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 [GTC] Thespian's Stage

// Spells
3 [TE] Intuition
4 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [IA] Zuran Orb
4 [US] Exploration
3 [ZEN] Punishing Fire
1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
2 [EVE] Raven's Crime

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 3 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
SB: 1 [CS] Dark Depths

I moved the DD to the sideboard to bring with the Bobs, don't know if it's right, mnaybe i should cut one bayou(this list has 17 Green sources counting the fetches and Moxen) , what do you guys think about it?

KaNcEr
05-31-2013, 03:24 PM
Lands: 37
1x Academy Ruins
1x Dark Depths
1x Forest
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Chasm
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Karakas
3x Maze of Ith
1x Misty Rainforest
4x Rishadan Port
2x Taiga
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2x Thespian's Stage
3x Tolaria West
2x Tranquil Thicket
2x Tropical Island
1x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills

Instants: 7
3x Intuition
4x Punishing Fire

Sorceries: 4
4x Life from the Loam

Enchantments: 7
4x Exploration
3x Manabond

Artifacts: 5
1x Engineered Explosives
4x Mox Diamond

Sideboard: 15
1x Bojuka Bog
3x Chalice of the Void
4x Crop Rotation
1x Crucible of Worlds
3X Krosan Grip
3X Sphere of Resistance

Thought is try a set of crop rotations in the side. Comes in for Storm, SnT and RIP maybe?.

Darklingske
06-01-2013, 03:12 AM
Why would you side Crop rotation in against storm? I don't see the use of those cards in that MU. Can you explain?

Wanderlust
06-01-2013, 04:57 AM
Been testing, and I think Punishing Fire/Grove of the Burnwillows is absolutely crucial in any build of this deck right now. Crop Rotation was really poor in testing - I think Expedition Map would be better if the deck actually wanted another land tutor (which I currently don't think it does.) Thespian's Stage has actually been pretty good on it's own. I'm trying a 3/2 split of Thespian's Stage and Dark Depths. Seems good so far.


Why would you side Crop rotation in against storm? I don't see the use of those cards in that MU. Can you explain?

I'm guessing the idea is that Crop Rotation helps increase the speed of deploying Marit Lage.

KaNcEr
06-01-2013, 10:38 AM
I'm guessing the idea is that Crop Rotation helps increase the speed of deploying Marit Lage.

^this was the idea... I can see reasons why its not optimal however. I still think it will up the SnT/RIP MU though.

OneBigSquirrelGod
06-16-2013, 06:23 PM
Drawing into SCG Columbus! Wish me luck guys!

Wanderlust
06-16-2013, 07:55 PM
Take it down, OneBigSquirrelGod! Really hoping to see you in a feature match.

Zynque
06-16-2013, 09:52 PM
Good luck Bobby! I'm always happy when someone top8 a big tournament with our monster of a deck! Writing this when you are in semifinals, seems to be only pretty nice matchups left :)

Please argue for Barbarian Ring and Trinisphere in the board afterwards, imo the latter is too slow sometimes and I like Sphere of Resistance. Also, please give your thoughts on Abrupt Decay vs Krosan Grip, I like the former more but I see that you haven chosen the opposite.

barcode
06-16-2013, 10:09 PM
Take it down, OneBigSquirrelGod! Really hoping to see you in a feature match.

LOL no, why would they do that? It's the Todd Anderson show!

Countertoplol
06-16-2013, 10:11 PM
LOL no, why would they do that? It's the Todd Anderson show!

Heaven forbid we watch something other than deathblade play.

OneBigSquirrelGod
06-16-2013, 11:46 PM
Good luck Bobby! I'm always happy when someone top8 a big tournament with our monster of a deck! Writing this when you are in semifinals, seems to be only pretty nice matchups left :)

Please argue for Barbarian Ring and Trinisphere in the board afterwards, imo the latter is too slow sometimes and I like Sphere of Resistance. Also, please give your thoughts on Abrupt Decay vs Krosan Grip, I like the former more but I see that you haven chosen the opposite.

I wouldn't have won round 1 if I didn't play barb ring. It also killed a death rite at an opportun moment in round 6, which helped me win the match. It was between that, cabal pit, or 60 cards, and I'm not about that... Lol

Trinisphere was for omniscience. It would stall the game, and lets face it... If they get omniscience out, they're probably not hurting for lands, and sphere allows them to cast multiple spells. Not a better choice IMO.

The only card abrupt decay is better against in legacy ATM is Lilliana of the veil and magus ofvthe moon. I'd rather drop 3sphere, and Krosan Grip omniscience. They both do nothing in your yard, and I'd rather rely only having a single green for the blood moon.

Let the argument begin... Now! Lol

barcode
06-17-2013, 07:07 AM
I wouldn't have won round 1 if I didn't play barb ring. It also killed a death rite at an opportun moment in round 6, which helped me win the match. It was between that, cabal pit, or 60 cards, and I'm not about that... Lol

Trinisphere was for omniscience. It would stall the game, and lets face it... If they get omniscience out, they're probably not hurting for lands, and sphere allows them to cast multiple spells. Not a better choice IMO.

The only card abrupt decay is better against in legacy ATM is Lilliana of the veil and magus ofvthe moon. I'd rather drop 3sphere, and Krosan Grip omniscience. They both do nothing in your yard, and I'd rather rely only having a single green for the blood moon.

Let the argument begin... Now! Lol

Here's a list to the decklist (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=56676) so people can argue!

How is Oblivion Stone treating you? I've cut it from my list but I also haven't top 8'd any events with it. I always found it too slow and preferred Engineered Explosives or the slower grind.

BTW I want to thank you, Bobby, for turning me onto Lands last year It's been a heck of a deck to play.

Zynque
06-17-2013, 07:52 AM
I wouldn't have won round 1 if I didn't play barb ring. It also killed a death rite at an opportun moment in round 6, which helped me win the match. It was between that, cabal pit, or 60 cards, and I'm not about that... Lol

Trinisphere was for omniscience. It would stall the game, and lets face it... If they get omniscience out, they're probably not hurting for lands, and sphere allows them to cast multiple spells. Not a better choice IMO.

The only card abrupt decay is better against in legacy ATM is Lilliana of the veil and magus ofvthe moon. I'd rather drop 3sphere, and Krosan Grip omniscience. They both do nothing in your yard, and I'd rather rely only having a single green for the blood moon.

Let the argument begin... Now! Lol

First and foremost, congratulations to an awesome performance, well done! I saw in the standings that you were undefeated after round 5 (Your name is easy to associate with my pet deck) and I begged for a feature match on camera. However, either randomness or biased tournament directors prevented that :(

Playing 61 cards is fine, I do it all the time since there is so many uncuttable slots now. My 61st card is a singleton Gamble atm, which I have grown very fond of and it increases the consistency of the deck so its not too bad. I do love me a Barbarian Ring but I can't really justify its spot since we have Punishing Fire, in addition I think I gave up on the threshold lands a while ago since they don't do much the early turns, where the games are most intense, they suck out your life too!! :) It is nice it did some work for you but I am not convinced...yet.

I agree that Trinisphere is much better than Sphere against Omniscience (and perhaps a few others), the only thing I feel is that Sphere is much more flexible, better than Trinisphere in more matchups, and it costs one mana less which is very important against the faster combo decks. I guess Trinisphere is more of a meta call (and a wise one) but for me, who mostly plays in tournaments not of SCG magnitude where the meta doesn't shift as quickly, Sphere of the Resistance will do more work.

Regarding Krosan Grip and Abrupt Decay, sure if you just compare which combo pieces and hate cards they can hit, KS might be better in certain metas and Omniscience is indeed much scarier than a Liliana of the Veil, but IMO it once again comes down to flexibility. Abrupt Decay can hit creatures. Creature-decks are generally good matchups sure, but sometimes they have a really good draw and having Abrupt Decay postboard increases the number of hands you can keep by a lot, it is better in more matchups. The only times where i wished I had a Krosan Grip instead is vs the nowadays rarely occurring Leyline of the Void. That said, I have not met very many Omniscience decks. A big arguement is that Krosan Grip only costs a single green which helps against Blood Moon, but then again Abrupt Decay only costs two mana which helps in other situations. A matter of preference I suppose.

I have been thinking a lot around the artifacts of the deck. I have found that I am not very satisfied with Crucible of Worlds, most often not very happy to see it when I draw it. What does it do? Is nice when your Loams have been extracted, but it is not very easy to find without Enlightened Tutor and there is also much more other types of graveyard hate these days where Crucible does nothing. If you just want a 5th Loam, Gamble is better imo, and it gives you more of everything! :) What do you think of this matter?

Ensnaring Bridge is another card which puzzles me. Going from one of the best cards in the deck to feeling more and more mediocre. This of course has a lot to do with metagame shift and printing of Abrupt Decay (most decks before didnt play main deck artifact/enchantment-hate). Many times I don't need it, it is very good against tribal decks, Reanimator and Sneak & Show though, and therefore I will not cut it. Still, it bothers me, probably because I have been spoiled with Enlightened Tutor before, finding it whenever I want, now it is more random. I don't know.

Oblivion Stone is really a pet card for me, and it really shines sometimes. However some other times its just expensive and slow. Since I convinced myself that 2 Engineered Explosives is the way to go, I have been having a hard time to find room for this gem. I sometimes have one in the board though. Please tell me of its merits for you, I want to play it, but I just can't.

Wanderlust
06-17-2013, 11:38 PM
Playing 61 cards is fine, I do it all the time since there is so many uncuttable slots now. My 61st card is a singleton Gamble atm

I like this idea a lot, actually - I'll be trying this out! I haven't considered Gamble in a while, but with Punishing-Grove, it can act as a 4th Punishing Fire once Grove is out, something I've been craving lately.


Sphere is much more flexible ... and it costs one mana less which is very important against the faster combo decks. I guess Trinisphere is more of a meta call

Totally agree that it's a meta call. In my area, in which there is always TES, Sphere of Resistance is crucial. However, Trinisphere does seem better for the Open Series meta since there seems to be more OmniTell than TES.


I have been thinking a lot around the artifacts of the deck.

I've been thinking along similar lines, and your reasoning backs up the inuition (badum ching) I've been having about them. I've been working on the Stage-Depths addition, and the only obvious place to cut for that is in the artifact department.

cuthbertthecat
06-18-2013, 06:11 PM
Congrats on the finish, Bobby! However, I've never agreed with 61 cards in a deck like this that needs to get an engine of very specific cards going as soon as possible to be able to win. I understand the upside of adding more silver bullets to a shell with so many tutors, but the extra variance in a deck with a good amount of variance already is a bit too much for me. I would say cut the o stone, 2nd explosives, the bog, or the manabond, but aside from that, the list does look pretty sweet for today's metagame.

OneBigSquirrelGod
06-18-2013, 08:00 PM
Congrats on the finish, Bobby! However, I've never agreed with 61 cards in a deck like this that needs to get an engine of very specific cards going as soon as possible to be able to win. I understand the upside of adding more silver bullets to a shell with so many tutors, but the extra variance in a deck with a good amount of variance already is a bit too much for me. I would say cut the o stone, 2nd explosives, the bog, or the manabond, but aside from that, the list does look pretty sweet for today's metagame.

I agree with the oblivion stone. The novelty of destroying planes walkers is easier solved with punishing fire. I think I will still add a 61st, not too sure yet.


You need to run crucible and bridge. As long as this is a control deck, the 4 main silver bullets need to stay. Intuition would be 100x worse without these cards. I have contemplated a chalice md, as well as a trinisphere, so you don't just bend over to combo. Plus they can help with the waste lock. Very impressed with the decks performance over the past weekend, and I am writing a tournament report in the meantime.

Zynque
06-19-2013, 08:11 AM
I very rarely Intuition for those cards, it happens, but the only time I really want to search for Bridge is against Sneak & Show and Reanimator.

To search for those 2 artifacts is definitely not among the prime tasks of Intuition (since there are so many other things you can search for which solves the same problem, more reliably and for less mana) so I don't agree that the absence of the artifacts makes it many many times worse. When would you ever Intuition for a Crucible with the exception of after being extracted of Loams? If there are no other situations then Crucible is not merited imo, since Surgical Extraction is at an all-time low since its printing. Maybe MAYBE one in the board.

I will keep the Bridge since it has its powerful uses but probably cut it when i try out Stage/Depths (which might not be very good but fun to test at the very least) but the Crucible is already gone, try it out! :)

KaNcEr
06-20-2013, 12:16 PM
I've been running without bridge or orb in the md for a while. Honesty don't miss either in the average MU. They are in the SB for certain situations however.

I could make a good argument for keeping crucible in what with DRS being so popular, but I could see running without it. In fact I'm contemplating very hard about cutting it post depths, but I'm still unsure.

Phelix
06-20-2013, 05:32 PM
i think bog has never been less important, so its a possible cut imo.

I dont run 2 EE(just the one), but that could be a meta thing.

cuthbertthecat
06-20-2013, 09:31 PM
i think bog has never been less important, so its a possible cut imo.

I dont run 2 EE(just the one), but that could be a meta thing.

I agree that bog is the best cut. The dredge matchup is super easy anyway.

Also, Kancer, I would never cut zuran orb. It's so important in our close matchups like RUG Delver where we often just need another turn or two to take over the game.

Serbitar
06-25-2013, 08:43 AM
Let the argument begin... Now! Lol

Maybe you could elaborate a bit on why you decided against Stage/Depths (I take it this tourney was after the rules change?). Just unneeded? Inconsistent? No time to test it?

EDIT: Nvm, I'm stupid. Somehow thought the change was effective JUNE 13th... And I was already wondering why nobody talked about it... :rolleyes:

hjalte
06-25-2013, 03:21 PM
Maybe you could elaborate a bit on why you decided against Stage/Depths (I take it this tourney was after the rules change?). Just unneeded? Inconsistent? No time to test it?

Considering that the rules change is effective from July 13, it is probably because it sucks to have 2 dead cards in the deck.
linky: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/248e

Wanderlust
06-26-2013, 05:18 PM
Below is what my testing of Stage/Depths Lands has led to. My meta is very combo-heavy, thus the focus on that in the board. Somewhat surprisingly, I haven't been missing the Dark Confidants. Going all-in on combo hate in the board may be correct even for a larger field, given that this deck is now really strong against just about all non-combo. Rest in Peace, Blood Moon, Back to Basics, and Price of Progress are really the only non-combo things I fear these days, and they aren't too prevalent.

4 Life from the Loam
4 Exploration
2 Manabond

3 Intuition
3 Punishing Fire
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Mox Diamond

2 Dark Depths
2 Thespian's Stage

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
1 Ghost Quarter

4 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Karakas
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Academy Ruins

4 Tolaria West
1 Tranquil Thicket

1 Forest
3 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Trinisphere
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Zuran Orb
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Krosan Grip

OneBigSquirrelGod
06-26-2013, 09:17 PM
4 mazes is not the right number when running punishing fire. Drop one for something more useful g1, such as Zuran orb... It help retain the lock when dropping to a low life, price of progress especially.

Wanderlust
06-27-2013, 01:06 AM
4 mazes is not the right number when running punishing fire. Drop one for something more useful g1, such as Zuran orb... It help retain the lock when dropping to a low life, price of progress especially.

Cool, I'll try that. For my own edification - why is 4 Maze is wrong with P Fires?

Megadeus
06-27-2013, 01:12 AM
You probably just dont need so many mazes as creature control when you have recurrable creature control... Fires allows you to mow down the little guys that formerly you may have needed multiple mazes to fight off.

Wanderlust
06-27-2013, 01:23 AM
You probably just dont need so many mazes as creature control when you have recurrable creature control... Fires allows you to mow down the little guys that formerly you may have needed multiple mazes to fight off.

Fair enough. I'm just always happy to see Maze, even in multiples - in many situations, it's a much less resource-intensive answer than P Fires, allowing the deck to keep it's life total high while channeling its resources into up an unstoppable late game. But I'll try going to 3 to see how it feels.

OneBigSquirrelGod
06-27-2013, 05:54 PM
Fair enough. I'm just always happy to see Maze, even in multiples - in many situations, it's a much less resource-intensive answer than P Fires, allowing the deck to keep it's life total high while channeling its resources into up an unstoppable late game. But I'll try going to 3 to see how it feels.

I've always been a fan of 4, but when I added the groves, it felt like it was the right call. Megadeus nailed it

Amon Amarth
06-28-2013, 01:41 PM
Below is what my testing of Stage/Depths Lands has led to. My meta is very combo-heavy, thus the focus on that in the board. Somewhat surprisingly, I haven't been missing the Dark Confidants. Going all-in on combo hate in the board may be correct even for a larger field, given that this deck is now really strong against just about all non-combo. Rest in Peace, Blood Moon, Back to Basics, and Price of Progress are really the only non-combo things I fear these days, and they aren't too prevalent.

4 Life from the Loam
4 Exploration
2 Manabond

3 Intuition
3 Punishing Fire
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Mox Diamond

2 Dark Depths
2 Thespian's Stage

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
1 Ghost Quarter

4 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Karakas
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Academy Ruins

4 Tolaria West
1 Tranquil Thicket

1 Forest
3 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Trinisphere
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Zuran Orb
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Krosan Grip


I've been tinkering with a list that is very close to this although I have another Stage because of it's utility. I'll have to ty cutting black too and see how it feels.

snorlaxcom
07-02-2013, 01:01 PM
I agree with the oblivion stone. The novelty of destroying planes walkers is easier solved with punishing fire. I think I will still add a 61st, not too sure yet.


You need to run crucible and bridge. As long as this is a control deck, the 4 main silver bullets need to stay. Intuition would be 100x worse without these cards. I have contemplated a chalice md, as well as a trinisphere, so you don't just bend over to combo. Plus they can help with the waste lock. Very impressed with the decks performance over the past weekend, and I am writing a tournament report in the meantime.

Do you still think bajuka bog is a relevant MD slot? I changed that slot to a thespian's stage as it can save chasm from a timely waste and post rules change it can also save legendary lands from being wasted at eot, namely tabernacle.

What is the rationale for running 3,4, or 5 fetches? Is this number fixed in Etutor lists or am I missing something?

OneBigSquirrelGod
07-02-2013, 07:05 PM
Do you still think bajuka bog is a relevant MD slot? I changed that slot to a thespian's stage as it can save chasm from a timely waste and post rules change it can also save legendary lands from being wasted at eot, namely tabernacle.

What is the rationale for running 3,4, or 5 fetches? Is this number fixed in Etutor lists or am I missing something?

Bog isn't as good as it once was. I will be adding stage and depths (one of each) and dropping bog and oblivion stone from my SCG list.

OneBigSquirrelGod
07-02-2013, 10:11 PM
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26332-3rd-Place-SCG-Columbus-with-Lands&p=734974#post734974

Here is the article I wrote for SCG, that they did not use (for reasons I cannot disclose). Any Questions, feel free to ask (on here, or good ol' Facebook).

SteakKnife
07-03-2013, 11:41 AM
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26332-3rd-Place-SCG-Columbus-with-Lands&p=734974#post734974

Here is the article I wrote for SCG, that they did not use (for reasons I cannot disclose). Any Questions, feel free to ask (on here, or good ol' Facebook).

Nice article!

Other than dropping bog and ostone for stage/depths, what other changes would you consider?

Would you keep your sideboard the same?

OneBigSquirrelGod
07-03-2013, 05:37 PM
I would. Very solid. Wish I had a 100% answer to Geist... Which the gears are turning as we speak

snorlaxcom
07-05-2013, 12:34 AM
I would. Very solid. Wish I had a 100% answer to Geist... Which the gears are turning as we speak

Seems pretty durdly, but is baleful strix an option that we can recur with academy? We still get the card draw for the turn in case we want to resume dredging. They usually cut removal after boarding so an exiled birdie is less likely. I added an Urborg back in and this has helped the thespian stage become active in games more often too.

HammafistRoob
07-05-2013, 04:22 AM
I would. Very solid. Wish I had a 100% answer to Geist... Which the gears are turning as we speak

Engineered Explosives? Oblivion Stone? Creeping Tar Pit? Glacial Chasm? Tabernacle + them having no lands? Seems like enough to me.

cuthbertthecat
07-05-2013, 05:50 PM
Thrun the Last Troll is a pretty sick answer to Geist. I don't think its what this deck wants to be doing at all, but it beats the shit out of small men backed up by burn.

Dark Ritual
07-05-2013, 07:14 PM
Usually the answer to geist is zuran orb + maze of ith the angel token. Even if you don't have the zuran orb, a 2/2 creature that can't be mazed isn't a huge issue. Could try mishra's factory as well for killing geist and if it doesn't have summoning sickness they can't attack short of a swords to plowshares/removal spell for it.

@hjalte: Thespian's stage isn't remotely dead even if the combo doesn't work yet. In a deck based on lands, stage has a lot of utility by copying other lands like maze, chasm, or a land that's the target of a wasteland but not legendary. It can also be a wasteland against opposing legendary lands. Depths is pretty dead though seeing as how the 30 mana requirement to activate it 10 times is pretty steep but its still doable at least once the game is locked down.

snorlaxcom
07-06-2013, 01:42 PM
It can also be a wasteland against opposing legendary lands.

Not with the new rules bro. I mean I guess you can use it to waste a legendary for the next week or so, but otherwise it has been great for saving my chasms and tabernacles on crucial turns.


Thrun the Last Troll is a pretty sick answer to Geist. I don't think its what this deck wants to be doing at all, but it beats the shit out of small men backed up by burn.

You don't just bring in the combo hate cards? They overlap well with burn matchups.

JoshA
07-06-2013, 07:54 PM
This is my favorite deck by far, I have been playing it for months now, really looking forward to a faster wincon (depths/stage)

What I don't get is why lately everyone has been talking about dropping dark confidants from the side..I found in heaps of local tournaments that I would side 4 dark confidants in every match up except burn..he is amazing for speed..so much so I put them main..here is my list I would love suggestions on what you guys think..bobs main are by far the best change I have ever done IMO.

4 dark confidants

2 intuitions
3 punishing fires

4 life from the loam

1 ensnaring bridge
1 crucible of worlds
1 zuran orb
1 ee
4 mox diamonds

4 exploration
1 manabond

3 tropical islands
2 bayou
1 tagia
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
4 maze of ith
2 tolaria wests
2 tranquil thickets
2 grove of the burnwillows
1 karakas
1 tabernacle
1 ghost quarter
1 academy ruins
1 urborg
2 wooded foothills
1 forest
1 creeping tarpit
1 glacial chasm

Side

4 chalice of the void
3 abrupt decays
2 trinisphere
1 tormods crypt
2 cursed totem
3 choke (still in testing, mainly against show and tell variants all there basics are islands so choke would really stop/slow them expecially with the ports, I feel if omniscience hits we lose..even with trinishpere)

Antonius
07-07-2013, 01:31 PM
I'm pretty stoked about playing lesbian's stage, myself....
since urborg is being looked at as a way to potentially speed up the combo, has anyone looked into running Raven's Crime again? I know that was a thing, i guess back when misstep was legal but I haven't been keeping up that much on the development of this deck.

Wanderlust
07-08-2013, 03:46 AM
Ugh... our OmniShow matchup seems totally unwinnable. I just lost an on-the-play game in which I went turn one Mox Diamond discarding Ghost Quarter, fetch a Trop, Life from the Loam those back, turn two Manabond, Sphere of Resistance, turn three Trinisphere, turn four Glacial Chasm lock (to turn off Release the Ants), and start Porting him. In the next few turns, he is STILL able to Show and Tell in a Dream Halls, draw his deck with Enter the Infinite, cast Emrakul, Cunning Wish for Rushing River to bounce both my artifacts, annihilator trigger me, cast another Enter the Infinite so he doesn't deck himself, Annihilator me again killing Glacial Chasm, and Release the Ants me to death. ::Flip the table::

JoshA
07-08-2013, 06:22 AM
Ugh... our OmniShow matchup seems totally unwinnable. I just lost an on-the-play game in which I went turn one Mox Diamond discarding Ghost Quarter, fetch a Trop, Life from the Loam those back, turn two Manabond, Sphere of Resistance, turn three Trinisphere, turn four Glacial Chasm lock (to turn off Release the Ants), and start Porting him. In the next few turns, he is STILL able to Show and Tell in a Dream Halls, draw his deck with Enter the Infinite, cast Emrakul, Cunning Wish for Rushing River to bounce both my artifacts, annihilator trigger me, cast another Enter the Infinite so he doesn't deck himself, Annihilator me again killing Glacial Chasm, and Release the Ants me to death. ::Flip the table::

Yea dude the show matchup is horrible...I have beaten it before only because he was mana screwed..I feel with the depths combo we might be able to be faster if thete digging and you can land a chalice for 1...

Im testing choke as I have said..im thinking of dropping a tropical island from my list if it works...in theory it seems good..even against bug, rug, deathblade. Basically anything that runs islands just to slow them...we will still have 4 moxs and tolaraia wests, creeping tar pit for blue of we need it...

cuthbertthecat
07-08-2013, 02:17 PM
You don't just bring in the combo hate cards? They overlap well with burn matchups.

He was asking about Geist in specific. The Spheres and such are good against the non-Geist parts of Geist decks, but not against Geist itself.

OneBigSquirrelGod
07-08-2013, 07:28 PM
Ugh... our OmniShow matchup seems totally unwinnable. I just lost an on-the-play game in which I went turn one Mox Diamond discarding Ghost Quarter, fetch a Trop, Life from the Loam those back, turn two Manabond, Sphere of Resistance, turn three Trinisphere, turn four Glacial Chasm lock (to turn off Release the Ants), and start Porting him. In the next few turns, he is STILL able to Show and Tell in a Dream Halls, draw his deck with Enter the Infinite, cast Emrakul, Cunning Wish for Rushing River to bounce both my artifacts, annihilator trigger me, cast another Enter the Infinite so he doesn't deck himself, Annihilator me again killing Glacial Chasm, and Release the Ants me to death. ::Flip the table::

Did you at least try to ghost quarter his lands?

snorlaxcom
07-08-2013, 09:27 PM
I would. Very solid. Wish I had a 100% answer to Geist... Which the gears are turning as we speak

164

Wanderlust
07-09-2013, 01:50 AM
Did you at least try to ghost quarter his lands?

I wish I had an exact play-by-play of that game... knowing how I could have played it better would be awesome. I do know that he didn't drop a Sol land until way late, it was all islands until then (he never missed a drop the whole game). At the time, I know I decided it would be a waste of my own resources to be Ghost Quartering islands against a deck full of islands - I was tying to Port him as much as possible instead. But it's totally possible I missed a crucial Ghost Quarter (or some other way to deny him mana) at a crucial time that would have kept him 1 mana short of the insanity that he was able to assemble.

MGB
07-12-2013, 09:29 AM
There's really no reason to play this deck over any other control deck in the format right now like Miracles or Landstill.

Those other control decks have basically the same level of aggro-fighting ability, but don't regularly get blown out by combo like this deck does. And those decks don't randomly scoop to cards like Back to Basics (or Blood Moon) like Lands does either.

Morte
07-12-2013, 09:56 AM
There's really no reason to play this deck over any other control deck in the format right now like Miracles or Landstill.

Maybe control matchup itself? What is Lands control matchup against other control decks in the format like Miracles or Landstill?

Antonius
07-12-2013, 10:31 AM
There's really no reason to play this deck over any other control deck in the format right now like Miracles or Landstill.


There's really no reason to play magic, either, except to have fun.

MGB
07-12-2013, 11:32 AM
Maybe control matchup itself? What is Lands control matchup against other control decks in the format like Miracles or Landstill?

All any U-based control needs to do is play some Back to Basics (maybe fetchable by E-Tutor) and it automatically wins 80%+ against Lands.. so no.

And even when Lands is "winning" (like against aggro decks), it takes forever to win and will result in many match draws. This deck is just a terrible choice for any kind of competitive event. It should be in the "Casual" section maybe, if you consider this deck "fun".

KntrellCL
07-12-2013, 01:35 PM
Maybe control matchup itself? What is Lands control matchup against other control decks in the format like Miracles or Landstill?

LANDSTILL competitive... i stop reading...

Jim Higginbottom
07-12-2013, 01:42 PM
This deck like every other established deck in legacy just has to adapt over time. If you're not running punishing fires in your lands build right now to kill deathrite shamans you're doing it wrong. Once you take care of that and have some sideboard answers for rest in peaces and lots of show and tell hate you're fine. I'm not saying I'd recommend this deck but I've tested it recently and it's not as bad right now as you guys are making it out to be.

cuthbertthecat
07-12-2013, 09:00 PM
All any U-based control needs to do is play some Back to Basics (maybe fetchable by E-Tutor) and it automatically wins 80%+ against Lands.. so no.

And even when Lands is "winning" (like against aggro decks), it takes forever to win and will result in many match draws. This deck is just a terrible choice for any kind of competitive event. It should be in the "Casual" section maybe, if you consider this deck "fun".

1) If you're not retarded, beating aggro decks with your maze of ith, punishing fire, tabernacle, zuran orb, glacial chasm deck is the easiest thing in the world.

2). Results speak otherwise about this deck being unsuitable for competitive environments. Like every other deck in the history of magic the gathering, it takes some work to become proficient with it.

3). What reasonable control deck can sideboard back to basics? All of the good miracles lists splash some number of colors and don't bother with garbage like enlightened tutor to find miserable one-ofs.

Serbitar
07-13-2013, 04:03 AM
While that guy seems to be simply trolling/hating, he does have somewhat of a point. Lands has very polarized matchups and right now there seem to be quite a few of the very bad variety. And even the good matchups have gotten a lot worse. Case in point, DRS – sure, Fires answers him well, but if you don't have it right away (and your opponent has any sort of additional action) you will be very far behind.
Of course, that doesn't make the deck casual. We're just worse positioned in the metagame than in the glorious days of Bant, Zoo, Thresh, Natural Order, Mystical Tutor Reanimator.

Regarding Back to Basics: This is of course not the Miracles thread, but BtB seems viable even in three color builds. At least where I play, the Miracles players are more likely to have it than not to have it. And even if they don't have it (or Rest in Peace) the matchup is still quite bad.

Countertoplol
07-14-2013, 02:40 AM
Remember, this guy saying there's no reason to play lands is the same one who said brainstorm is bad in MUC.

Phelix
07-14-2013, 04:50 AM
im not concerned about b2b. I think ive had it played against me once, ever. Its not really a big part of the meta, most miracles builds are not playing it.

the last time i played lands at grand prix, i had 2 draws(and two losses) in 16 rounds. Go figure. (one of those draws saved me from certain defeat)

I think our two bad matchups now, are Omni and Storm Combo. The rest are decent or good - with the rarer reanimator nad DnT matchups being worse than most people think (if they play correctly).

ventouza6969
07-14-2013, 03:50 PM
What about envelop guys

- vs storm that targets
all the tutors (burning wish, infernal tutor, grim tutor),
all the storm count cards (past in flames,Diminishing Returns,Ill-Gotten Gains)
even cards like ponder, preordain , probe, duress, cabal, rite of flame

-vs Show n tell target
mainly the show n tell
but who knows one envelop could be enough on the enter the infinite resolving by a dream halls

Megadeus
07-14-2013, 04:54 PM
All any U-based control needs to do is play some Back to Basics (maybe fetchable by E-Tutor) and it automatically wins 80%+ against Lands.. so no.

And even when Lands is "winning" (like against aggro decks), it takes forever to win and will result in many match draws. This deck is just a terrible choice for any kind of competitive event. It should be in the "Casual" section maybe, if you consider this deck "fun".

WTF? Do you play magic? This is an incredibly interesting deck and Im sure it would be a solid deck if it werent prohibitively expensive. Also a lot of players feel the need to play Brainstorm and FoW so that is another reason control decks like these dont see as much play. And The top 8's and top 16's prove your point otherwise, so you are either a troll or just don't actually know anything and enjoy talking out of your ass.

Michael Keller
07-14-2013, 05:22 PM
All any U-based control needs to do is play some Back to Basics (maybe fetchable by E-Tutor) and it automatically wins 80%+ against Lands.. so no.

And even when Lands is "winning" (like against aggro decks), it takes forever to win and will result in many match draws. This deck is just a terrible choice for any kind of competitive event. It should be in the "Casual" section maybe, if you consider this deck "fun".

In the twenty years I've played Magic, I've never actually picked up Lands (or any incarnation of it) to play, as it just doesn't interest me as a player. I still respect it and think it's a very good deck if piloted correctly.

This comment, however, reeks of someone who has no idea what competitive Legacy actually is and more than likely has seen his or her share of 'Factory beat-downs - hence the vindictive attitude towards its playability.

OneBigSquirrelGod
07-15-2013, 05:41 PM
All any U-based control needs to do is play some Back to Basics (maybe fetchable by E-Tutor) and it automatically wins 80%+ against Lands.. so no.

And even when Lands is "winning" (like against aggro decks), it takes forever to win and will result in many match draws. This deck is just a terrible choice for any kind of competitive event. It should be in the "Casual" section maybe, if you consider this deck "fun".

What's not fun about making your opponent have no fun... "Storm just loses to force of will, so since 99% of the format runs it, shouldn't that be considered a casual deck that shouldn't be played in a competitive tournament?" Said nobody, ever...

TheBoozeCube
07-15-2013, 06:05 PM
I'm in the process of building this deck. I have most of the cards, but I'm still missing Rishadan Ports and need something in the meantime. I was wondering whether it would be feasible to borrow tech from UB Tezzeret and run Ancient Tombs and/or City of Traitors in their place and then maindeck some number of Chalice of the Void? (I'm already planning on running an Enlightened Tutor build.)

ESG
07-15-2013, 06:25 PM
Ports are generally considered an auto-include. Their ability to cut off basic lands is key to the mana-denial strategy. That said, I have experience with Port-less configurations, although the deck plays somewhat differently. The sol lands, which I experimented with at one point (I used City of Traitors), make Crucible of Worlds and Intuition better, and the deck can end up playing like Stax. Basically, the game plan is different when you don't have Ports, but I don't feel a Port-less build is meritless.

Serbitar
07-16-2013, 03:25 AM
During the time Port was not on Magic Online people played more manlands (Factory) instead, as far as I remember.
Edit: Found this (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/21671_MTGO-Video-With-Lands--Legacy-.html)

snorlaxcom
07-16-2013, 10:15 PM
Anybody have any good testing with ddepths lately? It hasn't gotten me any wins that I didn't already have in the bag, but I can see how having it and saying you shortcut to it in a timed setting makes sense for this deck. I do like that you no longer rely on the yard for a wincon (if it hasn't been dredge into yet) and it can't be discarded, cliqued away, or countered.

Also, in today's meta, namely SCG, I am starting to like to having the cursed totem in the main more. It may be a bit drastic since we have a good game against creature spamming decks, but Deathrite Shaman is a kick in the nuts if i don't have a recurring fires out and they snap keep a hand with him in it. Granted, having two EE in the main has helped out, but I still like totem as a crutch. Have other people had better results with adding the fourth Fires?

Admiral_Arzar
07-22-2013, 12:07 PM
I took this deck to a local tournament this weekend and went 2-1-1, figured y'all might be interested in some discussion (the Valakut lands thread is long dead). I've experimented with Valakut in lands in the past, but decided to try and hybridize Lands with the Scapeshift Nic Fit deck to strengthen the strategy.

4 Exploration
4 Burning Wish
3 Punishing Fire
2 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Scapeshift

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

4 Taiga
3 Volcanic Island
2 Stomping Ground
2 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Island
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tolaria West
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Boseiju, who Shelters All
1 Wasteland
1 Forgotten Cave
4 Maze of Ith
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle

Sideboard
1 Overmaster
1 Life from the Loam
1 Slagstorm
1 Reverent Silence
1 Scapeshift
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Harmonize
1 Xantid Swarm
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Krosan Grip

I found Valakut lands lacking in acceleration because it can't play Manabond - 4 Exploration just isn't enough. Green Sun's Zenith steps in, allowing Zenith -> Arbor, and Zenith -> Explorer (this is obviously situational, Punishing Fire is a good way to kill Explorer if you think your opponent won't do it for you). The other creatures are mostly there for utility, stalling, or in the case of Primeval Titan an alternate wincon if Scapeshift is unavailable for some reason. Thragtusk is a nice surprise for aggro decks as well. Against blue decks you simply play lands and find a Scapeshift and a means to make it un-counterable. Tolaria West -> Boseiju and Burning Wish -> Overmaster are available preboard. Postboard you can also GSZ -> Xantid. Against aggro, do the usual things lands does to stall, and then win with Scapeshift. Combo is of course awful, although I managed to take a game off of Omnitell with double Sphere followed by Veteran Explorer beatdown (!).

The deck is very unpolished right now and is kind of awkward to play, but is very powerful. It crushed UWR control and Merfolk with ease, drawing with U/R burn (Price of Progress = lol). I won't be able to play it much in the near future because Omnitell is 25% of my meta at the moment, but I would welcome some ideas to improve and streamline it.

Serbitar
07-29-2013, 02:19 PM
Have people seen Kurt Spiess' interesting take on Stage-Depths Lands? He apparently went 7-1 (or better) in the Legacy portion of the SCG Invitational. His list eschews blue for stable mana and redundancy.

4 Life from the Loam
4 Exploration
2 Manabond
4 Gamble
3 Crop Rotation
4 Punishing Fires
4 Mox Diamond

4 Thespian's Stage
2 Dark Depths
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Tranquil Thicket
1 Bayou
2 Taiga
4 G-Fetch

3 Dark Confidant
2 Last Rites
2 Thoughtseize
1 Raven's Crime
2 Krosan Grip
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Dark Depths
(http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=57853)

Antonius
07-29-2013, 02:41 PM
I don't think it's so much mana as it is more lands that do stuff. when you have to play 10-11 mana lands plus groves you often feel like you're not doing enough with your life...

that said, I'd kinda prefer burning wish over gamble bc it seems like it could get better answers to RIP against UW (which is, IMO, the main nightmare matchup of this deck) but I also haven't tested his particular list.

ac3eb
07-29-2013, 07:53 PM
I'm loving that list. Only issue I see is that it seems very soft to Geist of St Traft. It's a completely different take on lands though. It's extremely combo-centric. Also, a surgical extraction on dark depths leaves you without a win-con unless you count punishing fire. Looks sweet.

Antonius
07-29-2013, 10:15 PM
I'm loving that list. Only issue I see is that it seems very soft to Geist of St Traft. It's a completely different take on lands though. It's extremely combo-centric. Also, a surgical extraction on dark depths leaves you without a win-con unless you count punishing fire. Looks sweet.

Yes. I feel like some number of factories or rager should be played.

snorlaxcom
07-29-2013, 11:00 PM
dunno if he went 7-1 like mentioned because scg says the list is placed below 700th...

ac3eb
07-29-2013, 11:47 PM
From the final standings of the invitational it looks like he finished with 33 points so the 7-1 seems legit. In the legacy tournament it does look like he did very poorly (6 points, drop), though we're not sure if he played the same deck or not.

lyracian
07-30-2013, 03:58 AM
dunno if he went 7-1 like mentioned because scg says the list is placed below 700th...
I think that means he finished 7-0-1 not 701st; I really doubt they got that many players to an event. :tongue:

snorlaxcom
07-30-2013, 12:00 PM
I think that means he finished 7-0-1 not 701st; I really doubt they got that many players to an event. :tongue:

I was saying if he did go 7-1 he couldn't have then ranked so low with 710th place unless he really scrubbed in the other portion of the invitational.

astormbrewing
07-30-2013, 01:27 PM
I was saying if he did go 7-1 he couldn't have then ranked so low with 710th place unless he really scrubbed in the other portion of the invitational.

He went 7-1: https://twitter.com/scglive/status/361260674199990272

As you can see, they have those placings to signify their records.

They don't have final standings up, but at the end of round 15 (of 16) he was in 19th: http://8e8460c4912582c4e519-11fcbfd88ed5b90cfb46edba899033c9.r65.cf1.rackcdn.com/www/scg_events/files/20130727161321000000.html

According to Facebook, he finished 13th.

losernoob
07-30-2013, 09:59 PM
Why not vesuva in any of the land decks? Wouldnt it do the same as Thespians except of coming tapped into the game?

Dissolution
07-30-2013, 10:16 PM
Why not vesuva in any of the land decks? Wouldnt it do the same as Thespians except of coming tapped into the game?

Vesuva enters the battlefield as a copy of the land, so it would enter with 10 counters (if copying Dark Depths).
-T

snorlaxcom
07-31-2013, 03:13 AM
Why not vesuva in any of the land decks? Wouldnt it do the same as Thespians except of coming tapped into the game?

Stage has the ability to save a tabernacle and other utility land from a timely opposing wasteland activation. It can also copy chasm at eot or even during upkeep to avoid a high upkeep cost and keep a shield going. The ability to recopy is also very useful as I have copied a port then a colored land to transmute my tolaria west, then finally get Marit Lage on board. Before, Vesuva acted as a waste against opposing legendary lands and another bojuka bog, but since those two scenarios are no longer relevant I'm sticking with stage.

losernoob
07-31-2013, 07:04 AM
Okay I am pretty new to magic so thanks for explanation. Right now I am playing 12post but I think about playing the lands deck... since I am pretty frustrated that i nearly always lose to combodecks i want to know how strong the deck really is. I mean, are there turn 2 kill possibilities? I could also buy the dreamshalls-deck cards and play unfair, so which deck has more "nightmare setups" and kills faster? Also i only see Eternal Garden from june having a top 8 finish - what about the dark depths variant ? He finished 13th and thats good i guess but how often is it possible for that deck to achieve it? As i read the thread i nearly see the same problems as in the 12post thread.

Anen
07-31-2013, 07:58 AM
The blue less lands list wants me to include Scapeshift Valakut in it ^^

Serbitar
07-31-2013, 08:16 AM
Okay I am pretty new to magic so thanks for explanation. Right now I am playing 12post but I think about playing the lands deck... since I am pretty frustrated that i nearly always lose to combodecks i want to know how strong the deck really is. I mean, are there turn 2 kill possibilities? I could also buy the dreamshalls-deck cards and play unfair, so which deck has more "nightmare setups" and kills faster? Also i only see Eternal Garden from june having a top 8 finish - what about the dark depths variant ? He finished 13th and thats good i guess but how often is it possible for that deck to achieve it? As i read the thread i nearly see the same problems as in the 12post thread.

If you're tired losing to combo, you should definitly not pick up Lands. The deck is strong but you kind of have to hit the right matchups (Lands has very polarized matchups).
I'd say it's roughly:
Tendrils, High Tide, Show and Tell, stuff like Dragon Stompy –– awful
Elves, Enchantress, Miracles –– bad
Jund, Deathblade, Shardless BUG, Maverick –– favorable
Delver, Goblins, Merfolk, Dredge, Stoneblade, Death and Taxes, stuff that wants to attack and doesn't run Deathrite –– very favorable

Stage-Depths-Lands has a possible turn two kill (Manabond, Stage, Depths, 3 manaproducing lands), but that will happen once in a blue moon. Lands is rather known for its glacial slow kill speed and even though Stage-Depths somewhat helps with that, you probably still want a stable board and mana denial before going all in for that.

losernoob
07-31-2013, 08:43 AM
Thanks for the answer - well the friend i play most with plays omnishow(with sneak), monoblue omni, tin fins and delver. What makes me hate the matchups so much is that you can just sit there and watch without counterspells when they pick up the right hand. 12post aka turboeldrazi feels just so slow and thats why i want a faster deck with some more action than just spinning tops until i can cast an eldrazi (in case of lands - wasteland, port, etc.). Turn 2 kill possible sounds good, even if its rare. But you people say lands definetly is strong but not like for example delver or show and tell with top 8 finish every tourney?

snorlaxcom
07-31-2013, 02:37 PM
Thanks for the answer - well the friend i play most with plays omnishow(with sneak), monoblue omni, tin fins and delver. What makes me hate the matchups so much is that you can just sit there and watch without counterspells when they pick up the right hand. 12post aka turboeldrazi feels just so slow and thats why i want a faster deck with some more action than just spinning tops until i can cast an eldrazi (in case of lands - wasteland, port, etc.). Turn 2 kill possible sounds good, even if its rare. But you people say lands definetly is strong but not like for example delver or show and tell with top 8 finish every tourney?

Playing the deck for a week now I am sure it doesn't have as many high finishes because of card availability and the pilot's preference. It's also not so glamorous like Ichorid or Tendrils so people dismiss the deck entirely and say it's too slow for the format as the safe bet right now is a deathriteshaman+bluestuff.dec. Lands can be frustrating at first but stick with it! The deck has some very satisfying victories and can wreck the fragile manabases of the meta. But as was said before, don't play this if you want your rounds to end early because this is a slow prison/control deck. Some people may despise playing with you as I had an opponent concede g3 last weekend because g2 took too long and he needed a break.

losernoob
08-03-2013, 03:09 PM
Sounds good, I like long games! I think that the scg site is pretty confusing... how did Kurt play with the deck, 7-1? 7 wins 1 loss? What about the 710th place, is it a mistake ?:cry:

Megadeus
08-03-2013, 03:18 PM
Considering that there werent 710 people there... Yes. If you look at the other deck lists they all are ranked that. I think that they used that to show what there record was. For example 710 means 7-1-0 or 701 means 7-0-1

losernoob
08-03-2013, 05:06 PM
Okay, just want to be sure I am not investing in garbage... or better said a deck thats mainly unfavored. I want a total good legacy deck but an unusual extraordinary deck, not what every1 plays.

Megadeus
08-03-2013, 05:15 PM
I mean if you are buying this stuff you will have the basic lands shell... And if you are investing in lands then you probably can afford to switch around other cards later. I think the deck is cool and all, but it feels like it may not be as good as the normal lands builds that play the combo but are not purely focused on the combo like this one is.

apple713
08-03-2013, 05:15 PM
Okay, just want to be sure I am not investing in garbage... or better said a deck thats mainly unfavored. I want a total good legacy deck but an unusual extraordinary deck, not what every1 plays.

you may consider enchantress in that case.

losernoob
08-03-2013, 05:40 PM
I mean if you are buying this stuff you will have the basic lands shell... And if you are investing in lands then you probably can afford to switch around other cards later. I think the deck is cool and all, but it feels like it may not be as good as the normal lands builds that play the combo but are not purely focused on the combo like this one is.

Could you explain a little further? You mean the eternal garden list? Or what is the lands deck that plays combo?

@apple:
No thanks that deck is just not beautiful.

apple713
08-03-2013, 06:47 PM
Could you explain a little further? You mean the eternal garden list? Or what is the lands deck that plays combo?

@apple:
No thanks that deck is just not beautiful.

not beautiful? artwork wise?

losernoob
08-03-2013, 07:22 PM
Artwork is 1 factor yes and the other factors are not easy to explain. Also I already have some cards for lands deck like Tabernacle, Exploration, in case of Eternal Garden Tropical Island etc. ... Also Enchantress didn't make a top8 finish since October 2012. Now you are online could you maybe tell me what lands list he means with combo?

Megadeus
08-03-2013, 07:25 PM
Artwork is 1 factor yes and the other factors are not easy to explain. Also I already have some cards for lands deck like Tabernacle, Exploration, in case of Eternal Garden Tropical Island etc. ... Also Enchantress didn't make a top8 finish since October 2012. Now you are online could you maybe tell me what lands list he means with combo?

I'm talking about the list that went 7-1. The one that plays gamble x4 stage x4 and after board up to 4 dark depths

losernoob
08-03-2013, 07:34 PM
Maybe I am stupid or maybe I just don't understand because english is not my native... is the dark depths deck the "landsdecktogo" or another list? Which Landslist would do best as allrounder?

Oreia
08-07-2013, 08:50 PM
There is this discussion about the best list of whatever, so i thought it would be a good time to post my list:

// Lands
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
3 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
3 [A] Tropical Island
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
3 [DK] Maze of Ith
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [DIS] Ghost Quarter
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [A] Savannah
1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [A] Taiga
3 [FUT] Grove of the Burnwillows
1 [CS] Dark Depths
1 [GTC] Thespian's Stage

// Spells
3 [TE] Intuition
1 [V10] Zuran Orb
4 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [US] Exploration
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
2 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
3 [ZEN] Punishing Fire

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MI] Cursed Totem
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 [ISD] Geist of Saint Traft
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 2 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip

The key card is the SB Geist of Saint Traft, someone said we are a little weak to this little fella, so, if you can't beat them, join them! I might test a second E. bridge in the SB if the geist plan is not working so well, hope you guys like the list!

Serbitar
08-10-2013, 04:34 AM
Maybe I am stupid or maybe I just don't understand because english is not my native... is the dark depths deck the "landsdecktogo" or another list? Which Landslist would do best as allrounder?

To clarify:
There is basically a standard 4 color Lands build which utilizes Tolaria West and silver bullet artifacts. It looks something like this (http://www.mtgpulse.com/event/13486#189406) – though do mind that that particular list is pre M14 rules and thus does not yet include Stage-Depths. You probably make room for one of each by cutting Creeping Tar Pit and Bojuka Bog (or Barbarian Ring).
Then there is this (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=57853) unconventional 3 color build without blue with more combo pieces, easier access to Loam and Fires, but without answers like Engineered Explosives and Zuran Orb. It actually looks a lot closer to the old Lands builds before playing blue was common.

Nobody knows yet which build is better. The first one is the more proven, standard one. But the second looks very promising (to me) as well.


The key card is the SB Geist of Saint Traft, someone said we are a little weak to this little fella, so, if you can't beat them, join them!

Could you maybe elaborate a bit what you hope Geist to accomplish from your sideboard? Block theirs? Because as an unremovable threat they don't expect it looks pretty weak. Sure you can attack freely with Maze of Ith but I'm not sure that is what we want to do.

Oreia
08-10-2013, 09:53 PM
Could you maybe elaborate a bit what you hope Geist to accomplish from your sideboard? Block theirs? Because as an unremovable threat they don't expect it looks pretty weak. Sure you can attack freely with Maze of Ith but I'm not sure that is what we want to do.

For me, Geist is a big surprise for the opponent, i used to play Bobs in that slot, but the Bobs were always dying to Bolts, P fire, Abrupt Decay, any kind of removal they usually leave in in post boarded games, and the Geist can make those cards dead, is a HUGE clock for combo, and most of the decks can't even interact with it post board(Jund and Bug side their Liliana's out), we also can protect it with our mazes and Karakas.

I played another Legacy Regional today, went 4-1, losing only to Grixis Delver.

here is the list i played today:

// Lands
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
3 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
3 [A] Tropical Island
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
3 [DK] Maze of Ith
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [DIS] Ghost Quarter
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [A] Savannah
1 [A] Taiga
3 [FUT] Grove of the Burnwillows
1 [CS] Dark Depths
1 [GTC] Thespian's Stage
1 [UNH] Forest

// Spells
3 [TE] Intuition
1 [V10] Zuran Orb
4 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [US] Exploration
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
2 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
3 [ZEN] Punishing Fire
1 [LG] Sylvan Library

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MI] Cursed Totem
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 [ISD] Geist of Saint Traft
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 2 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
(-1 Verdant Catacombs -1 Savannah + 1 Sylvan Library + 1 Basic Forest from the previous list)

Round 1 Affinity
g1 Pretty easy match, i knew he was on affinity so i kept a double maze E. Bridge hand and menaged to win with the Marit Lage.

g2 Same as g1, but this time i resolved a sphere of resistence to slow him down.

1-0
2-0

Round 2 Aggro Loam
G1 Wastelocking him really fast with exploration, wastelands and E.E. for 0 to clean his chalices and mox diamonds out of the way, finishing with the marit lage, ol' course!

G2 i kept a triple waste exploration hand.... after i got my waste and Loam extracted i topdecked a Geist to smash along with the marit lage token(5 minutes on the clock and he was on 27 life due to grove lifegain)
2-0
4-0

Round 3 Sneak and Show
G1 Another easy match which resumed to a topdecked Karakas + E. Bridge... he conceded.

G2 He dropped a turn 2 blood moon to lock my karakas out.... show and told an Emrakul, EOT Krosan Grip the B Moon , bounce the emrakul, kill him with marit Lage token.


This is a Legacy regional, and i'm already q'ued for the national, he asked me if i could conced to him so he could make top 8..... My heart was broken and i conceded! hahaha
3-0*
6-0*

Round 4 Grixis Delver
g1 Supposed to be a good match.... i thought he was on Jund, kept with a waste lock hand and died to a couple flipped delvers...

g2 Kept with 3 lands.... Din't find another one in 5 turns... Damn!

Round 5 The Epic Storm]
G1 a good friend of mine, he thought i was on DnT, keeping a Sylvan Library, Mox diamond, Loam Zuran Orb land made me confy.... god knows how wrong i was, since i dind't draw another land the whole game.

G2 Keeping a one-lander turbo hate hand kinda made me happy... topdecking 3 lands in a row made me cast 3 trinisfere, a chalice for 1 and a Geist. of course i won.

G3 He therapy'ed my for Trinisfere on turn 1... i revealed a hand of double Chalice, 2 lands a mox and a geist, cast this stuff on turn 1 and passed, topdecked a 3sphere on turno 3 and he conceded.

Again, another friend who was not q'ued for the national so i conceded.

Overall the deck cooperated with me, don't think there's a single card i would change in the 75, hope you guys like my little report, and comment your thoughts! Thanks!

losernoob
08-15-2013, 06:22 PM
Sad that noone comments :) I like the report but since I am pretty new to Lands i don't know what to comment. If my last orders come tomorrow I finally can start with Kurts DD list and I am happy about that! Can't wait to test.

kurtyspice
08-16-2013, 04:12 PM
I ran the r/g Depths Stage list at the SCG Invitational, and I liked it a lot. I used to play blue lands but I think it's too slow for legacy right now. Having Gamble as opposed to Intuition/Enlightened Tutor made tutoring for Punishing Fire or Grove vs Deathrite Shaman much easier, and having cheap tutors made the combo matchups much better. I beat Show and Tell and Storm at Somerset, and a big part of that was being able to combo them quickly, or tutor for Last Rites post board.

Ingo
08-18-2013, 05:24 AM
I ran the r/g Depths Stage list at the SCG Invitational, and I liked it a lot. I used to play blue lands but I think it's too slow for legacy right now. Having Gamble as opposed to Intuition/Enlightened Tutor made tutoring for Punishing Fire or Grove vs Deathrite Shaman much easier, and having cheap tutors made the combo matchups much better. I beat Show and Tell and Storm at Somerset, and a big part of that was being able to combo them quickly, or tutor for Last Rites post board.

Your build looks really solid, congrats on your good result!
I also like Depths-Stage, but fear hate like pithing needle/extirpate.
What's your experience with this?

Serbitar
08-18-2013, 05:46 AM
Lands is already pretty cold to Extirpate on Loam, so I would not worry too much about that. You could actually argue that a Stage-Depths list with Crop Rotations and Gambles is stronger vs. Extirpate than the traditional list. Pithing Needle is rarely played preboard (post board you have answers, too) – and you can always fall back on Punishing Fires.

Ingo
08-19-2013, 06:16 PM
@ Serbitar: thanks for the advice.
About the R/G Depths list, I wonder if sylvan library could be a good idea (having swords to plowshares vs 20/20 token in mind).

kingofethanol
08-25-2013, 03:07 PM
I piloted Oreia's list from above yesterday, and did quite well with it. I showed up at two local weeklies and went 2-1 (didn't cut to top8, it was a small showing and their tournament structure is odd) and 4-0 at another one. I had lost to a SnT player and proceeded to win games for the rest of the day. Not a lot of people were familiar with the deck, and I was happy to surprise some people by not timing out using Stage-Depths. This deck can really kill quickly and efficiently if it needs to.

I'm still new to the deck, and I'd like to learn it through and through. Some question for you veterans:

-I have not warmed up to Glacial Chasm yet. In most of my games it just pitches to Mox Diamond. I understand it gives you protection, but I've almost never needed it. Would it be wrong to cut it?

-I have a hard time sideboarding correctly. What's the general rule of thumb when doing so with this deck? Oreia's 3x Geist is really spicy, and I'd like to be able to incorporate that into my game play.

-What are some of the more creative Intuition piles you've come up with the deck?

-Is Zuran Orb our pre-board plan against Storm? I can't think of any other way. That match up is abysmal g1. I lucked out against Burn last night but I can also tell that it's not usually supposed to be that good either.

Top Deck
08-25-2013, 03:11 PM
I piloted Oreia's list from above yesterday, and did quite well with it. I showed up at two local weeklies and went 2-1 (didn't cut to top8, it was a small showing and their tournament structure is odd) and 4-0 at another one. I had lost to a SnT player and proceeded to win games for the rest of the day. Not a lot of people were familiar with the deck, and I was happy to surprise some people by not timing out using Stage-Depths. This deck can really kill quickly and efficiently if it needs to.

I'm still new to the deck, and I'd like to learn it through and through. Some question for you veterans:

-I have not warmed up to Glacial Chasm yet. In most of my games it just pitches to Mox Diamond. I understand it gives you protection, but I've almost never needed it. Would it be wrong to cut it?

-I have a hard time sideboarding correctly. What's the general rule of thumb when doing so with this deck? Oreia's 3x Geist is really spicy, and I'd like to be able to incorporate that into my game play.

-What are some of the more creative Intuition piles you've come up with the deck?

-Is Zuran Orb our pre-board plan against Storm? I can't think of any other way. That match up is abysmal g1. I lucked out against Burn last night but I can also tell that it's not usually supposed to be that good either.


were you running sphere of resistance in the side or in main?

kingofethanol
08-25-2013, 03:16 PM
were you running sphere of resistance in the side or in main?

I have 2 in the side right now.

Phelix
08-25-2013, 05:09 PM
especially if you run stage, dont cut chasm. its such a sweet timewalk.

Oreia
08-26-2013, 11:32 PM
I piloted Oreia's list from above yesterday, and did quite well with it. I showed up at two local weeklies and went 2-1 (didn't cut to top8, it was a small showing and their tournament structure is odd) and 4-0 at another one. I had lost to a SnT player and proceeded to win games for the rest of the day. Not a lot of people were familiar with the deck, and I was happy to surprise some people by not timing out using Stage-Depths. This deck can really kill quickly and efficiently if it needs to.

I'm still new to the deck, and I'd like to learn it through and through. Some question for you veterans:

-I have not warmed up to Glacial Chasm yet. In most of my games it just pitches to Mox Diamond. I understand it gives you protection, but I've almost never needed it. Would it be wrong to cut it?

-I have a hard time sideboarding correctly. What's the general rule of thumb when doing so with this deck? Oreia's 3x Geist is really spicy, and I'd like to be able to incorporate that into my game play.

-What are some of the more creative Intuition piles you've come up with the deck?

-Is Zuran Orb our pre-board plan against Storm? I can't think of any other way. That match up is abysmal g1. I lucked out against Burn last night but I can also tell that it's not usually supposed to be that good either.

Hey bro, really nice to see that someone went all in with my list, thank you very much!

- Chasm is not only a time walk, sometimes is your only saver(needle on Mazes or whatever), Chasm plus stage is really a HARD LOCK for 90% of the decks that are trying to kill you with normal damage, too good of an interaction, shouldn't be cut.

- For sideboard options, as Bobby said more then once, Intuition is cut more then 85% of the times(all 3), if you are running manabound, that should be cut too(more often then the intuitions, but my list doesn't run any bounds), , next step is cut all the useless/less good on that match(Karakas Against Rug, Mazes against combo, i also side out one or both Tranquil Thickets when i need to be fast against other aggros/combos) and the Punishing Fires against combo and control(although i like to leave a singleton P Fire in case i can lock my opponent out of the game and he is not conceding any time soon).

- Zuran orb is out main deck flusterstorm against Storm, if you know you are playing against this you should mull to a hand of Zuran Orb/Turn 3 or early intuition, plus port if possible/Turno 3 or early Tolaria West transmute/E Tutor, you should try to keep a hand without any of this combinations of cards, but i'll need a lot of luck to win!. Also, if your oponnent know's you are on Lands, that's an advantage for you, because he will probably keep a slow hand since you have "no way" to interact with him game one, then you can cast Zuran Orb and see their face of "DAMMIT, I THOUGHT HE WAS THE UNDERDOG THIS MATCH".

BTW, congratulations for your results with the deck!

Phelix
08-27-2013, 03:15 AM
I must say i happily keep any wastelock hand. or something like:

Mox, exploration, maze, port, loam. 2 random lands.

snorlaxcom
08-27-2013, 09:15 AM
I must say i happily keep any wastelock hand. or something like:

Mox, exploration, maze, port, loam. 2 random lands.

Best feeling in the world to trounce with lands. I don't get why people have a gripe with lands and being caught in its web. It's similar to being helpless against CB, but I guess having lands in play gives hope. I find it very stimulating and challenging to wield. Loving it so far. I was 0-1-1 in scgbalt this weekend, but hung in there and went on to win the next 5. Rough mu in last rounds with shardless and getting poopy dredges and hands vs goblins ): but still finished in the money!

Marit Lage > Emrakul

Antonius
08-27-2013, 08:33 PM
has anyone tried doing a blue build with standstill? stage/depths and west are all activated abilities... as are the rest of our lands.

apple713
08-27-2013, 08:35 PM
has anyone tried doing a blue build with standstill? stage/depths and west are all activated abilities... as are the rest of our lands.

i dont play lands, but I play depths combo, and i laugh when merfolk plays standstill against me. Its worth a shot

Phelix
08-28-2013, 02:25 AM
Standstill changes everything.

I must say that i dont really like it here. the scenarios where we want to NOT loam are quite few. if casting loam nets them 3 Cards, then its silly. I think standstill would require a build thats so close to being landstill, that we better keep that list there.

losernoob
08-28-2013, 01:56 PM
I play the R/G Stage Depths list and it totally blows hehe, I play it since 2 weeks and i already got called landsmagician. Nobody expects the deck to be so strong but it is!
Only change i made is Urborg into sideboard because I don't really see the purpose as long as you don't have any thoughtseize, ravens crime, confi or whatever boarded - and instead I have a Karakas in. It totally misses imo. Also I have a drop of honey in the sideboard - the 2 cards that got out of the deck are last rites x2.

civet five
08-29-2013, 12:19 AM
I play the R/G Stage Depths list and it totally blows hehe, I play it since 2 weeks and i already got called landsmagician. Nobody expects the deck to be so strong but it is!
Only change i made is Urborg into sideboard because I don't really see the purpose as long as you don't have any thoughtseize, ravens crime, confi or whatever boarded - and instead I have a Karakas in. It totally misses imo. Also I have a drop of honey in the sideboard - the 2 cards that got out of the deck are last rites x2.

im confused - do you think the deck is good or bad?

losernoob
08-29-2013, 08:09 AM
im confused - do you think the deck is good or bad?

I love it - its very good, beautiful and strong!!! The only thing to make better are the 3 duals - im looking for 3 Beta duals now.

novatinhu
08-31-2013, 09:29 AM
Hello Guys, I have 2 Legacy decks: Reanimator and Goblins.
Do you think its an good idea play lands, because for that I will have to sell all my other cards (except 4 wast and 4 rishadan) to afford it.
What's the current "best" Lands build?

Thx

Phelix
08-31-2013, 09:43 AM
I love it - its very good, beautiful and strong!!! The only thing to make better are the 3 duals - im looking for 3 Beta duals now.

huh? u dont play duals in ur lands?

Peter
09-01-2013, 06:58 AM
A couple of posts earlier kurtyspice mentioned that Last Rites "saved" him in the Show and Tell matchup. Can someone care to explain why this is a good anti-card here compared to other discard spells? In my mind we tap out for this spell and the opponent can just counter it and move on. Maybe I'm missing something here :)

Antonius
09-01-2013, 12:38 PM
anyone seen commune with the gods? 1G, find acceleration and/or loam and/or more lands? Seems pretty useful.

Cross your fingers for Volrath's Stronghold for enchantments, boys. If ever it were to happen, it would be in this set.

holy shit, creature OR enchantment? Might be even better for Aggro Loam than I thought...

snorlaxcom
09-01-2013, 02:51 PM
We have no creatures in the deck and only 7-4 enchantments. I don't know why you would want to play this. Resolving 1 Intuition setups our game with more consistency than Digging with these guys.

But yes for aggro loam it seems promising.

Antonius
09-01-2013, 05:43 PM
We have no creatures in the deck and only 7-4 enchantments. I don't know why you would want to play this. Resolving 1 Intuition setups our game with more consistency than Digging with these guys.

It also digs for punishing fires/groves and gives a compelling reason to consider running seismic assault in the RG list.

KntrellCL
09-01-2013, 06:50 PM
if you already have the chance to "academy ruins" an enchantment on your GY, you are already on a board state good for lands (I guess). The nature of the deck is to develop a good mana base on the first stage of the game and try to stay alive. Second goal is to "transform" all your card advantage of LFTL into board presence and after all of that go for the win...

I really love Seismic Assault, but punishing fire acomplish the same task and is much resiliance than assault. Also, the deck is pretty tight... so what would you take out for those cards?

kingofethanol
09-03-2013, 02:52 PM
Has anyone tried Aura Fracture in the sideboard?
I currently have 3 Krosan Grips in the board and thinking about cutting one for a Fracture.

Pros: It can stop multiple blood moons, Counterbalances, and RiP. It is also an Enlightened tutor target. Doesn't fuel Deathrite (very minor).
Cons: I would depend on mox diamonds post-moon instead of using the 1x basic forest I could be using to cast Krosan grip. Fracture doesn't have split second unlike Grip. It does not stop artifacts (Relic, Top, etc.) Fracture can be named with Revoker and Pithing Needle. Cost requires losing a land, which can cut you off in some cases, though I think sacrificing a land to remove blood moon seems worth it.

The con list is just wordier than the pros list. I really like the idea, what does everyone else think?

snorlaxcom
09-03-2013, 05:47 PM
Has anyone tried Aura Fracture in the sideboard?
I currently have 3 Krosan Grips in the board and thinking about cutting one for a Fracture.

Pros: It can stop multiple blood moons, Counterbalances, and RiP. It is also an Enlightened tutor target. Doesn't fuel Deathrite (very minor).
Cons: I would depend on mox diamonds post-moon instead of using the 1x basic forest I could be using to cast Krosan grip. Fracture doesn't have split second unlike Grip. It does not stop artifacts (Relic, Top, etc.) Fracture can be named with Revoker and Pithing Needle. Cost requires losing a land, which can cut you off in some cases, though I think sacrificing a land to remove blood moon seems worth it.

The con list is just wordier than the pros list. I really like the idea, what does everyone else think?

After playing against miracles a bit I like the idea. Although they can bring in extra detention spheres I like this tech at easily answering moon and saving us against a rip. They only way they can win is a jace which we can then easily fires away with no cb to worry about. I do like grip however in random mu as it can blow a crypt or relic. The white requirement is a little iffy with only mox and a karakas to cast from. I might go with 2 grip and one Aura Fracture (rather than o-stone).

Phelix
09-03-2013, 05:56 PM
aura fracture looks like it might he kinda good.

will test it.

Sparkii
09-03-2013, 11:57 PM
Playing almost the same 75 as Oreia. I really do like geists in the board. I love bob in the board, I really do, but getting hit with a bajillion punishing fires is not the way to go. I do miss creeping tar pit though, maybe I'm just not used to stage/depths.

E-Tutor also re-opens the crucible usage. There was a lot of discussion about whether or not crucible deserves a place in the main or not, and E-Tutor definitely helps finding the singleton.

As for Aura Fracture, it seems like a neat option. 3 Fetches + Savannah + 4 Mox + Karakas is almost 10 white sources to play it off of. I'll give it a shot. :smile:

kingofethanol
09-04-2013, 01:06 AM
Awesome, let me know of the results!

LegoEgo
09-04-2013, 12:21 PM
Hey Guys,
checking in again to report some results. I was at the Grand Prix in Prague and since I didnt make day 2, I played the Legacy Championchip.
I wanted to test the new RG build and it was great. I finished 5-1 and made 3. place aka 100€ Store Credit
Here is the list I played:

1 Bayou
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Rishadan Port
2 Taiga
4 Thespian's Stage
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Dark Depths
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
2 Manabond
4 Crop Rotation
4 Punishing Fire
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
SB: 2 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Dark Confidant
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Last Rites
SB: 1 Raven's Crime
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Dark Depths
SB: 1 Karakas

I summerize the highlights in short and then tell you my thoughts on the deck, since I played Blue based Lands with white for E.-Tutor as well as the much better Version with red for p.-fires, I think I can pretty much tell the diffrences/ weaknesses/ strenghts of the diffrent builds.
I played 2:0 against Jund, 2:0 against Dredge (it was really 2:1 because of a gameloss i received, for forgetting my to write my sideboard down),
1:2 against Bug Controle (i lost only due to manascrew in the second game... yes manascrew :rolleyes:), 2:0 against Alluren (a very tough matchup for the old Lands builds), 2:0 against Esper Stoneblade, and 2:1 against Elfs

I won only 3 games in all these matches with the traditional Lands Prison style (one against Jund, two against Stoneblade), all other games i won with 3-5 turn kills via Combo, I even raced Elfs, and thats what makes this new Lands build so incredible, you can either win extremly fast with an hard to disrupt Combo or Controle the opponent if the gamestate calls for it. The deck is extremly consitent because of 8 one mana tutors, I would never play less than 4 Crop Rotation because the instantspeedness is just crazy good to get Bojuka in response to Dredge activations, or Glacial Chasm in response to an Lethal attack, for example against Elfs, is awesome. Also what makes this Version better than the other builds is that its much more resilent against grave hate, sure its still hard but you can just combo of without even touching your grave. You can also try to raise Combo decks like Show and Tell and Elfs and probably even Storm if they keep a slw hand, but Combo is still a major weekness thats for sure.

I will apply some small changes like Karakas to main board and Urborg to side, its also possible to change the Bojuka for the third Thranquil Thicket and put the Bog in the Board. My main Problem with the deck is the board, I need to test against combo to find the right cards, but I can definitly say I hate Chalice in this build, in the other Lands decks its the best answer to Combo but this deck is crippled in the same way by it, but the Combo deck can play around it with enough time while we cant. I´m also not sold on Thoughtseize, Ravens Crime and Last Rites, I will definitly try Sphere of Resistence, Trinisphere, or a possible white splash from the board with Thalia and/or Ethersworn Canonist

SB: 2 Sphere of resistence
SB: 3 Dark Confidant
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 Thalia
SB: 2 Dark Depths
SB: 1 Savannah

Thats all for today :wink:

Phelix
09-04-2013, 05:13 PM
I must confess im not quite comfortable playing the heavy combo version - partly because of mana issues.

My Current sideboard:
3 Chalice of the void
1 Oblivion Stone
3 Trinisphere
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Thalia
4 Dark confidant.

I play urborg main, and karakas main.

Down to 3 chalice since most of the storm stuff is hated ok, but our omni matchup needs help. With this board I bring in the full 15 Cards vs omni and the 13 Cards vs various storm combo. This makes those combodecks and overall winning matchup, despite losing game 1 90% of the time.

losernoob
09-05-2013, 04:59 AM
huh? u dont play duals in ur lands?

BETA duals - now I have revised.

kingofethanol
09-08-2013, 06:10 PM
Though I didn't finish well, Geist of St. Traft was an amazing sideboard card. I've slammed it t2 against some control and combo players, and it definitely does a lot of work. There was not a situation where I would have preferred Dark Confidant over it, though I would like to try Bob somewhere in the 75 at some time.

Didn't draw Aura Fracture, but there were plenty of times where I would have wanted it to resolve.

High Tide seems like a tough MU. While we have sphere and tax effects, a Recall/Rebuild on the end of our turn is something we just can't deal with. I've tried saving Port activations while Tide is on the stack, but they can easily play around that via Candelabra or Turnabout.

I'm a little discouraged after this weekend, but I'm trying not to feel results oriented. I love playing this deck.

Sparkii
09-08-2013, 09:05 PM
Though I didn't finish well, Geist of St. Traft was an amazing sideboard card. I've slammed it t2 against some control and combo players, and it definitely does a lot of work. There was not a situation where I would have preferred Dark Confidant over it, though I would like to try Bob somewhere in the 75 at some time.

Didn't draw Aura Fracture, but there were plenty of times where I would have wanted it to resolve.

High Tide seems like a tough MU. While we have sphere and tax effects, a Recall/Rebuild on the end of our turn is something we just can't deal with. I've tried saving Port activations while Tide is on the stack, but they can easily play around that via Candelabra or Turnabout.

I'm a little discouraged after this weekend, but I'm trying not to feel results oriented. I love playing this deck.

After going back to white for sideboard, I'm adding Thalia back in. Along with canonist, it gives me 7 creatures post board against combo and the like. Sideboard as follows:

3x Chalice of the void
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Geist of Saint Traft
2x Trinisphere
2x Krosan Grip
1x Cursed Totem

Thalia is a nice tax and clock, and against tide, you don't lose to an EOT recall.

Serbitar
09-09-2013, 08:34 AM
[...] and thats what makes this new Lands build so incredible, you can either win extremly fast with an hard to disrupt Combo or Controle the opponent if the gamestate calls for it. The deck is extremly consitent because of 8 one mana tutors [...]. Also what makes this Version better than the other builds is that its much more resilent against grave hate, sure its still hard but you can just combo of without even touching your grave. You can also try to raise Combo decks like Show and Tell and Elfs and probably even Storm if they keep a slw hand, but Combo is still a major weekness thats for sure.


I got the chance to play the 'new' Stage-Depths-build in a tournament yesterday (going 4-1), and I have to agree with this post. Both Loam and Fires are much more accessible in this version. I really liked how much easier especially post-board games became and how your awful matchups are suddenly less awful due to the potential to flat out race. The potential to apply pressure also makes all possible combo-hate cards so much better, as your opponent no longer has infinite time to find his answers.

(Btw, Kurt Spiess made T16 in the SCG (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=58932), this time with white sideboard cards.)

Ingo
09-11-2013, 10:10 AM
I got the chance to play the 'new' Stage-Depths-build in a tournament yesterday (going 4-1), and I have to agree with this post. Both Loam and Fires are much more accessible in this version. I really liked how much easier especially post-board games became and how your awful matchups are suddenly less awful due to the potential to flat out race. The potential to apply pressure also makes all possible combo-hate cards so much better, as your opponent no longer has infinite time to find his answers.

(Btw, Kurt Spiess made T16 in the SCG (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=58932), this time with white sideboard cards.)

I have been playing this deck online a lot (and love playing it), but I have some questions regarding the sideboard. Kurt Spiess dropped dark confidant, and im interested in what people think about this. It opens room for combohate, but doesn't it make you more vulnerable to graveyard hate?
He also splashes white for Cannonist. It seems to me that thorn of amethyst and red elemental blast could be good idea's as well, avoiding a white splash (and improving the chance of having the appropriate mana available).

Serbitar
09-11-2013, 12:20 PM
I think a splash is pretty free in this list. You only need to run Savannah/Bayou over basic Forest (or whatever would occupy that slot). So I would not worry too much about replacing the sideboard cards with 'less optimal' things RG has to offer. Trying to keep REB open under your own Spheres seems painful. A hate bear also doubles as somewhat of a clock.

I have not yet played the deck without Dark Confidants. My guess, though, is that the combo potential alleviates the need for a different engine post board. The deck is now much less graveyard dependent. On the other hand, Confidants do help finding the pieces, of course.

Sando
09-13-2013, 12:30 AM
Picked lands up a while ago and recently been testing the new R/G version. Is living wish worth looking at as another tutor effect for the combo. It would also give access to bullet creatures in the board and even hexmage as another combo enabler.

Must say being able to race and go all in on the combo win is very useful in some match ups (burn has been the funniest to beat in a race)

civet five
09-13-2013, 01:50 AM
Picked lands up a while ago and recently been testing the new R/G version. Is living wish worth looking at as another tutor effect for the combo. It would also give access to bullet creatures in the board and even hexmage as another combo enabler.

Must say being able to race and go all in on the combo win is very useful in some match ups (burn has been the funniest to beat in a race)

Original versions of the deck ran Burning Wish for access to Loam, Mulch, Devastating Dreams, silver bullet hate, etc. I do like the idea of being able to Wish for hate in game1. things that could potentially be of interest:
Teeg
Thalia
Canonist
Harmonic Sliver/Pridemage/Viridian
Riftstone Portal --> fights Moon effects nicely
Dark Depths
Thespian's Stage
Grove

The big downside I see is that you lose some of the speed that ComboLands has gained. I'm not sure that the flexibility is worth that.

Phelix
09-13-2013, 02:14 AM
you also lose sideboard slots.

id like to have wish in the main, but dont have the sb slots to give up.

Serbitar
09-13-2013, 03:22 AM
Also, wishing for hate g1 seems suspect (slow). And Riftstone Portal might help get colored mana under Blood Moon, but you still cannot win unless that mana somehow helps you to get rid of it (i.e., if you are drawing your EE if you're running that).

Ingo
09-14-2013, 09:44 AM
For the decks that run gamble, does anyone use it for tutoring hate against combo G2 and 3?
If so, would it be an idea to include angel of despair versus Show and Tell in the sideboard (there's an 80% of keeping it on the play, if you gamble for it T1)?

bruizar
09-14-2013, 10:36 AM
I used to play a similar list with grove and had tried to run oracle of mul-daya + volraths stronghold as well. Oracle is pretty explosive. Also Faithless Looting lets you dredge really fast. The thing with lands is that it tends to lose to time, that's why I tried a more aggro approach (creatures like stirring wildwood). The deck wasnt good enough at all but the idea of being more aggressive so that you have more time for your games is correct I think.

Phelix
09-14-2013, 03:37 PM
For the decks that run gamble, does anyone use it for tutoring hate against combo G2 and 3?
If so, would it be an idea to include angel of despair versus Show and Tell in the sideboard (there's an 80% of keeping it on the play, if you gamble for it T1)?
paying 2 mana for thalia or canonist seems way better

KntrellCL
09-14-2013, 04:23 PM
I did 3-1 in a little tournament with this sb

3 thalia
1 canonist
4 bobs
4 chalice
1 EE
1 depths
1 stage

My main was with tar pit. People tend to keep stp for g2/3 if they saw depths on main

Ingo
09-14-2013, 05:33 PM
paying 2 mana for thalia or canonist seems way better

It would depend on which cards you side out (which do you side out?).
If you side out gamble, you have your sideboard hate.
If you don't side out gamble, you have all the sideboard hate + the 4 gambles (with a likely chance of keeping your hate).
Both chalice and angel have an instant value, without having to keep mana open or to play it next turn (chalice for zero against ANT/TES and angel against show and tell).

I don't entirely agree that thalia and canonist are way better, as they cost 1W, which isn't always easy to have available in time.

Serbitar
09-15-2013, 05:47 AM
The thing with lands is that it tends to lose to time, that's why I tried a more aggro approach (creatures like stirring wildwood).

Stage-Depths Lands has no problems with time anymore.

I think the potential of Gambling for hate has its merits. I'd be hesitant to use that possibilty to run narrow uncastables in the board (Angel, Iona). But running a 1-of Chalice (over the 4th Sphere e.g.) to Gamble for vs. Storm seems like a fine plan.

Phelix
09-15-2013, 07:11 AM
Stage-Depths Lands has no problems with time anymore.

I think the potential of Gambling for hate has its merits. I'd be hesitant to use that possibilty to run narrow uncastables in the board (Angel, Iona). But running a 1-of Chalice (over the 4th Sphere e.g.) to Gamble for vs. Storm seems like a fine plan.

Also playing fast is a skill. If you frequently go to time, its also time to check urself.

Further, agressive builds are available, even without the stage/depths, and stirring wildwood wouldnt have been my choice. Wurm harvest is a multi purpose Card that swings the tempo, and there are 3 other man lands, id play before wildwood.

Oreia
09-15-2013, 08:15 PM
After going back to white for sideboard, I'm adding Thalia back in. Along with canonist, it gives me 7 creatures post board against combo and the like. Sideboard as follows:

3x Chalice of the void
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Geist of Saint Traft
2x Trinisphere
2x Krosan Grip
1x Cursed Totem

Thalia is a nice tax and clock, and against tide, you don't lose to an EOT recall.

I've been playing a sideboard similar to yours, and i'm calling the deck TEAM VATICAN, the Thalia being the Priest, geist the Bishop and Tabernacle the Church! hahahaha
But i wouldn't play the Canonists, i'm using Sphere of Resistence which i can board in against Pyromancer decks, UWR Delver, Canadian, and combo, of course.

Phelix
09-16-2013, 01:59 AM
while i think sphere is better against delver (doesnt die to bolt) I think canonist is stronger vs combo.

Sure combo can kill it or bounce it, but same is true w. sphere - canonist has the added benefit of being a clock (especially paired w. your other dudes) i run both thalia and canonist.

Tyrio
09-19-2013, 12:25 AM
Played this list at my LGS tonight:
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
4 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Thespian Stage
2 Dark Depths
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Barbarian Ring

4 Exploration
1 Manabond
4 Mox Diamond
4 Gamble
3 Crop Rotation
4 Life from the Loam
4 Punishing Fire

SB:
2 Dark Depths
3 Dark Confidant
2 Seal of Primordium
2 Wear//Tear
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Gaddock Teeg

My LGS is pretty combo light now that a few of the regular players have moved away, hence the relatively light anti-combo package. I came up with 59 cards when I was counting my deck before the event and jammed in a Barbarian Ring. I realized later that the missing card was my Bayou and thus Dark Confidant sat pretty sheepishly on the sidelines most of the night.

I went 4-1 with the deck and I have to say that the RG configuration felt incredibly powerful. I actually beat Burn game 2 on a mull to 5 on the play just by Marit Laging him on my t4. I would have won the third game as well if I had been on the play. Like someone said earlier, being able to just play the traditional mana-denial game and then suddenly kill them out of nowhere with Crop Rotation/Gamble is just so good.

1-2 Burn
2-0 Armageddon Stax
2-0 Maverick
2-0 Shardless Bug
2-0 Shardless Bug
I may edit in a tournament report later.

Serbitar
09-19-2013, 05:55 AM
I'm curious about the Wear/Tears in your sideboard. Is there any matchup in particular were the possibility of a two for one justifies that it is harder to cast than, say, Krosan Grip or more Seals? I can see it killing an equipment and a RIP vs Blade or a Counterbalance and a Helm vs. a permanent based Miracles or multiple hate pieces (like RIP and Needle), but that doesn't seem too likely.

Tyrio
09-19-2013, 01:17 PM
I'm curious about the Wear/Tears in your sideboard. Is there any matchup in particular were the possibility of a two for one justifies that it is harder to cast than, say, Krosan Grip or more Seals? I can see it killing an equipment and a RIP vs Blade or a Counterbalance and a Helm vs. a permanent based Miracles or multiple hate pieces (like RIP and Needle), but that doesn't seem too likely.

My LGS has kind of a wonky meta; a lot of people like playing rogue/fringe decks and I wanted to pack more removal in the same amount of cards I guess. I also don't own an Urborg so being able to potentially cast either side of Tear for 2 mana was also a consideration. There were at least 3 U/W players including a Stoneblade and Miracles player so the possibility of 2 for 1ing them existed. There was also Stax, 4C Loam, and a Pox (and probably more) deck lurking around whom I also could have potentially 2 for 1ed.

Ultimately Krosan Grip/Seal is probably better in an unknown field. UWx decks are probably the only popular decks you can attempt to 2 for 1 and ofc they have counterspells so Grip/Seal is probably better against them in the end anyhow.

Anen
09-23-2013, 01:08 PM
I must confess im not quite comfortable playing the heavy combo version - partly because of mana issues.

My Current sideboard:
3 Chalice of the void
1 Oblivion Stone
3 Trinisphere
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Thalia
4 Dark confidant.

I play urborg main, and karakas main.

Down to 3 chalice since most of the storm stuff is hated ok, but our omni matchup needs help. With this board I bring in the full 15 Cards vs omni and the 13 Cards vs various storm combo. This makes those combodecks and overall winning matchup, despite losing game 1 90% of the time.

Are you on a 4 colors or 5 colors build Phelix?
I am like you, not confortable with the combo heavy version. And I am hesitant to go 5 colors, but W gives some pretty nice creatures post board.

Phelix
09-24-2013, 02:50 AM
Im a very tight 5 color, - playing 6 duals (3xtrop, taiga, Savannah and bayou) basically giving me Karakas, Savannah, moxes and fetches for White (9 Sources). No manlands etc for added fix.

Anen
09-25-2013, 11:51 AM
Still wondering what to play this week-end.

5 Color Intuition Lands
1 Academy Ruins
1 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Tranquil Thicket
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Tolaria West
3 Tropical Island
3 Maze of Ith
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Zuran Orb
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
3 Punishing Fire
4 Intuition
4 Life from the Loam
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Savannah
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 4 Dark Confidant
SB: 3 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 3 Ethersworn Canonist

or

Combo Lands
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 Mishra's Factory
4 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Maze of Ith
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
4 Life from the Loam
2 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Crop Rotation
2 Scapeshift
3 Stomping Ground
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Plateau
1 Badlands
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
4 Burning Wish
SB: 4 Dark Confidant
SB: 3 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 1 Scapeshift
SB: 1 Hull Breach
SB: 1 Reverent Silence
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Perish

Droping Gamble + Fire/Grooves for Scapeshift/Valakut.

KntrellCL
09-25-2013, 12:04 PM
I think bojuka bog is the weakest utility land for now... you should play the second tranquil thicket. Ensnaring Bridge with Depths seems a nombo, especially if you cant fetch "naturaly" the bridge/crucible.

Everytime I played Marit Lage on G1... my oponents kept their removals, making my bobs...thalias... worst... so I move the combo to the SB (1 thespian, 1 depths) and playing a regular lands deck in G1.

Im also playing 5 colors.

3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Canonist
3 Bobs
4 Chalice
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Thespian Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Bojuka Bog

KntrellCL
09-25-2013, 12:50 PM
Im having a big tourney on saturday... how is that valakut list working for you? I really love burning wish....

Im thinking something like these

Lands [37]

Control Lands [16]
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Maze of Ith
4 Thespian's Stage

Mana Lands [14]
4 Taiga
3 Stomping Ground
1 Plateau
1 Badlands
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Grove of the Burnwillows

Utility Lands [7]
1 Karakas
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Dark Depths


Spells[24]

Engine [9]
3 Life from the Loam
4 Burning Wish
2 Scapeshift

Acceleration [8]
4 Exploration
4 Mox Diamond

Removal [3]
3 Punishing Fire

Tutor [4]
4 Crop Rotation

Anen
09-25-2013, 03:27 PM
Im having a big tourney on saturday... how is that valakut list working for you? I really love burning wish....

Im thinking something like these

Lands [37]

Control Lands [16]
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Maze of Ith
4 Thespian's Stage

Mana Lands [14]
4 Taiga
3 Stomping Ground
1 Plateau
1 Badlands
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Grove of the Burnwillows

Utility Lands [7]
1 Karakas
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Dark Depths


Spells[24]

Engine [9]
3 Life from the Loam
4 Burning Wish
2 Scapeshift

Acceleration [8]
4 Exploration
4 Mox Diamond

Removal [3]
3 Punishing Fire

Tutor [4]
4 Crop Rotation

I like your list a lot. Basically you did:
-1 Mishra's Factory
-1 Bojuka Bog
-1 Wooded Foothills
-1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
-1 Maze of Ith
-1 Life from the Loam

+1 Ghost Quarter
+2 Grove of the Burnwillows
+3 Punishing Fire


I agree with most of these changes (and your previous analysis) as I was trying to add Groves/Fire before ^^. But for playing Valakut for a couple years now, I can assure you Boseiju is way more important that Ghost Quarter, which you will almost never used to lock down opponent from basics. This is the only thing I will revert back.

KntrellCL
09-25-2013, 04:11 PM
I like your list a lot. Basically you did:
-1 Mishra's Factory
-1 Bojuka Bog
-1 Wooded Foothills
-1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
-1 Maze of Ith
-1 Life from the Loam

+1 Ghost Quarter
+2 Grove of the Burnwillows
+3 Punishing Fire


I agree with most of these changes (and your previous analysis) as I was trying to add Groves/Fire before ^^. But for playing Valakut for a couple years now, I can assure you Boseiju is way more important that Ghost Quarter, which you will almost never used to lock down opponent from basics. This is the only thing I will revert back.



I havent test that deck list yet... in fact, I dont even have scapeshift :( but playing 3 LFTL +1 LFTL on board seems crucial to find LFTL as soon as possibly. Do you ever have problems with the 7 mountains you need for valakut? some times I would go for 4 lands... (1 stage, 2 mana lands, 1 depths) or 5 with a wasteland if they have one on play, forcing them to sac their wasteland.

This deck list seems a little bit weaker against counters... so Boseiju could be the right call

Anen
09-25-2013, 08:08 PM
I havent test that deck list yet... in fact, I dont even have scapeshift :( but playing 3 LFTL +1 LFTL on board seems crucial to find LFTL as soon as possibly. Do you ever have problems with the 7 mountains you need for valakut? some times I would go for 4 lands... (1 stage, 2 mana lands, 1 depths) or 5 with a wasteland if they have one on play, forcing them to sac their wasteland.

This deck list seems a little bit weaker against counters... so Boseiju could be the right call

You have 9 mountains in here, and Valakut triggers with the sixth. That is more than enought mountains, even with opposing Wastelands ^^ The biggest problem I see here is Extirpation on Taiga. Maybe -1 Taiga +1 Mountain ?
Yes you can scapeshift for a lot of things, but don't forget lands come into play tapped with Scapeshift.

Phelix
09-26-2013, 01:28 AM
I play bridge and depths. its two different Things and thats fine imo. when I play bridge, i probably couldnt have won with a fat flier or didnt have time to assemble.

and i was about to suggest more or less the same changes (+ cycle land) i only play 3 fetches.

attemanden
09-28-2013, 07:24 PM
Hey guys.

what are the arguments of playing Abrupt decay > Krosan grip in sideboard?

Fatal
09-29-2013, 03:45 AM
Leyline of the Void

Serbitar
09-29-2013, 04:17 AM
Leyline is a an argument against running Abrupt Decay. The argument for Abrupt Decay is trading ease to cast for flexibility (most importantly, it kills Deathrite Shaman. Also, you won't sit on a blank while getting beaten down by Tarmogoyf – you can now kill that Thalia if it really bothers you or that Liliana threatening to ultimate.) That said, I always found Decay too unreliable to cast in the 4+ color Lands builds. After board, you cannot rely on your engine running to help with colors.

snorlaxcom
09-29-2013, 02:34 PM
DRS is it.

K-grip hits brown yard hate, Leyline, easier to cast, and can hit a game ending blood moon reliably.

Oreia
09-30-2013, 01:51 PM
Hey Guys, it's me again, this weekend i'm going to play another Legacy Regional here in Brazill, and, as usual, i'm playing Lands, i decided to cut the chalices, i mean, i LOVE them, but they wasn't doing enough for me, also i mixed both GRb combo Lands and the old list i was running(with intuitions, like the one Bobby Kovacks got 3rd in the SCG) so, what do you guys think, maybe i should cut something in the board for 3+ chalices? Thanks for the help!

BTW, thats the list:
// Lands
1 [A] Bayou
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [DIS] Ghost Quarter
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [WWK] Creeping Tar Pit
1 [LG] Karakas
3 [FUT] Grove of the Burnwillows
1 [A] Taiga
2 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [A] Tropical Island
3 [FUT] Tolaria West
3 [DK] Maze of Ith
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 [GTC] Thespian's Stage
1 [CS] Dark Depths

// Spells
3 [TE] Intuition
4 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [IA] Zuran Orb
4 [US] Exploration
3 [ZEN] Punishing Fire
1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
1 [CMD] Oblivion Stone

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [OD] Last Rites
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 1 [MI] Cursed Totem
SB: 3 [EX] Sphere of Resistance

I also don't really know what yo use as my 15th slot in the SB....

Phelix
10-01-2013, 01:02 AM
the 3rd trini for intuition? (unless you board them out there)

Oreia
10-01-2013, 05:29 PM
the 3rd trini for intuition? (unless you board them out there)

Maybe you are right and the 3rd 3sphere is better, i'm using 3 Sphere of Resistence because it's better against combo(o can cast turn 1 with mox or turn 2 without mox) and been able to intuition for Sphere of resistence is HUGE against combo(being two mana means i can probably cast loam or port them in the same turn) and the 3sphere is also against combo, but against SnT variants i'm not going to cast it, probably going to sangbag it until they SnT. I'll test the third 3sphere and give you a feedback, thanks for the opinion!

Phelix
10-02-2013, 03:09 AM
oh i agree on sphere of resistance, i just like that Little exta.

Oreia
10-06-2013, 12:13 AM
Good news! today i played another Legacy regional and top 8ed it!
I played the following 75:

// Lands
1 [A] Bayou
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [DIS] Ghost Quarter
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [WWK] Creeping Tar Pit
1 [LG] Karakas
3 [FUT] Grove of the Burnwillows
1 [A] Taiga
2 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [A] Tropical Island
3 [FUT] Tolaria West
3 [DK] Maze of Ith
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [GTC] Thespian's Stage
1 [CS] Dark Depths
1 [UNH] Forest
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [CMD] Bojuka Bog

// Spells
3 [TE] Intuition
4 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [IA] Zuran Orb
4 [US] Exploration
3 [ZEN] Punishing Fire
1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
1 [CMD] Oblivion Stone

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 3 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst(couldn't find the Spheres)
SB: 1 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void

I swapped the cursed totem and the Last Rites for 3 Chalices due to a meta call(a friend told me that there was going to be lots of Delver.deck)

Round 1 - Omnisneakandshow(A Hibrid between the two decks)

G1 - I get Emrakul'ed with Omni.... no way i can win.

G2 - Land Mox Bob is a really nice start, porting his lands all the time until he resolves a Sneak Attack and passes, the game ends when i reveal a krosan grip with Bob.

G3 - He plays an Island and passes, i start by playing Thorn on turn 1.... second thorn a few turns later then Ghost Qartering lock him out of the game.

1-0

Round 2 UWR Delver

G1 - Land delver followed by double waste and a Ghost Quarter of my own, P firing the delver gave me the win, he finished the game with no permanents.

G2 - Land Mox Chalice for one seals the deal....

2-0

Round 3 Jund

G1 he starts with triple shaman while i can kill only 2 of them... can't beat multiple goyfs, bobs and shame all at the same time.

G2 - Got manascrewed after getting double wasted, cast an oblivion stone to stay alive, he topdecks the Decay....

2-1

Round 4 Canadian ********

G1 - Got crushed by double delver triple goyf a topdecked waste on my Glacial Chasm.

G2 - Chalice for 1 on turn 1....

G3 - Chalice for 1 on turn X, after removing a delver and a goyf(P fire and Decay, respectively)

3-1

Round 5 Goblins

G1 - Got crushed by turn 1 Lackey, turn 2 Double lackey and only a asingleton Maze in the board

G2 - Bob + P fire clearing the board wins me the game

G3 - Got mana screwed really hard, had to P fire only once on every two turns(only red source was grove), until i could naturally combo and kill my opponent with a swing from the glorious marit lage and a Punishing fire to the face!

Well, that's it for now, maybe if i had was trained enough with the deck i could 5-0 with it, but by now i'm really happy with this result, and would be very glad if you guys could give me your toughts(eize) .

attemanden
10-08-2013, 01:10 PM
Hey guys.
I guess we all have played creeping tar pit for While but i really have second thoughts about the card. Everytime i need it (often vs planeswalkers) i feel its a risky move to activate it, and risk its going to the yard. From there its a
Very slow plan. What im Playing atm is punishing fire, ee and Worm harvest the last one in my opinion is very good vs planeswalkers.
Also the card actually make their creature removal spells a little usefull game1 instead of just dead cards.

Am i the only one thinking of cutting that card?

Anen
10-08-2013, 05:03 PM
Since July and Dark Depths/Stage, most of us said goodbye to Creeping Tar Pit.

attemanden
10-09-2013, 08:49 AM
Thanks a lot. Ive Seen the new combo in lands, but didt see it replaced tar pit. (In some
Builds)

Rampart
10-10-2013, 10:37 AM
I don’t normally do this, but I decided to write up a short tournament report from the weekly legacy night. I ended up playing the R/G lands deck last night at the weekly local legacy tournament. I have slowly been assembling the deck over the last two weeks and was able to borrow the last 5 cards needed. Thanks Dave and Jeff.

The list is a modified list of Kurt Spiess top 16 build from SCG Philly.

+1 Manabond, +1 Riftstone Portal, +1 Ghost Quarter, -1 Rishadan Port, -1 Crop Rotation, -1 Bojuka Bog.

I wasn’t a huge fan of the original sideboard so I reworked it a little:

+3 Krosan Grip, +1 Crop Rotation, +1 Bojuka Bog, +1 Karakas, +1 Raging Ravine, -3 Seal of Primordium, -1 Trinisphere, -1 Chalice of the Void, -1 Crucible of Worlds, -1 Dark Depths

I get a couple practices games in with elves before the tournament starts; it feels like an awkward matchup at best.

Round One – Storm. We talk a little before we start, he seems like a nice guy but claims that he as several legacy decks but does not play that much. Ok, that’s strange. I tell him that this is a new deck for me, so please bear with me as I may take some time to figure out my lines of play. We continue to have friendly banter through the match.

Game 1: He wins the die roll and drops a Tropical Island, pass. I play an Exploration into a Thespian Stage. He drops a fetch, then Brainstorm/Ponders, fetch for Underground Sea. Pass. I drop two lands, A Dark Depths and Rishadan Port. I have the choice to port him during his turn or go for a 20/20 Gerry Thompson Token (I hate this token, need to find on original). I decide for the token. It didn’t matter. I get a taste of tendrils for 30ish. He could have easily killed me through a port activation.

Game 2: This game goes long. I keep a hand with wasteland and port and loam. I draw a sphere on the third turn and drop it, I start working on his manabase with port activations and wastelands and he can’t recover as I have functionally locked him out of the game. He scoops it up.
Game 3: Turn two sphere, turn three sphere, turn 4 Ethersworn Canonist. GG

1-0 (2-1)

Round Two – RUG Delver. We talk a little before; he seems like a nice guy but claims that he just started playing legacy, riiiggghhhttt. During the first couple turns of the game one you could easily determine this guy as a competent player. I give him two months till he starts to terrorize the store with that deck. I go thought the song and dance about how this could take some time for me because it’s a new deck the interactions are strange.

Game 1. The beginning of the game is a little fuzzy, I tried to punishing fire a first turn delver that gets dazed. There was some cantripping on his end and a couple of missed triggers. Basically what happens is that I have a Thespain Stage, Maze of Ith and two Mox Diamonds out, he has a fetch and a trop and a flipped delver. He wastes my maze I respond by casting Crop Rotation which resolves and I get Dark Depths. Now I have to wait to play around Stifle. He makes a mistake a turn later and cracks his fetchland while tapped out. In response I make a 20/20 Gerry T. GG

Game 2. He goes turn one mongoose. I turn one Exploration and we both start grinding, I eventually get my loam engine online then I end up at four when he dies to my 20/20 Gerry T. This game wasn’t that interesting, just really grindy. I have two mazes for his two goyfs. I can’t easily answer the mongoose, finally dredged the depths to get there. He ended up stifling one of my fetchlands which I thing was a huge mistake. People seem to forget that you can stifle Maze of Ith.

2-0 (4-1)

Round 3 – 12 Post. My opponent has been playing legacy for a while and we chit chat about random stuff. I go through the song and dance about this being a new deck for me. Our games were not interesting or fun.

Game 1: I lock her out, port her basic lands. The only thing of relevance that she does is Bojuka Bog some of my graveyard away, but it didn’t matter as I was hedging against it with an extra loam and wasteland in my hand. I was a little too quick for her to interact.

Game 2: Was much of the same as game 1. I Ghost Quarter her basics and establish the lock and win with the Gerry T Token.

3-0 (6-1)

Round 4 Slivers – WHAT is this? I feel bad saying this with being undefended on the night but once again I tell my opponent to bear with me because this is a new deck for me. This sliver deck can pile on damage soooo fast and crystalline sliver makes it difficult to interact with their creatures. I am not looking forward to this match

Game 1. I cast gamble three times. He pulls the tutored card for the first two gambles. But I got to keep my manabond for the last gamble. With a couple of timely dredges I was able to assembly the tabernacle lock. GG

Game 2 and 3. I get rolled, turn one Vial into a really aggressive start both games while I don’t have the time to assembly a G.Chasm lock. The third game was close, but was unable to find a loam in time to lock him up.

3-1 (7-3) on the night which I am pretty happy with for being my first tournament with the Lands deck.

Gamble was cast 12 times and I only lost 3 of the cards tutored.

Overall I really like the deck a lot. I am going to have to find the last cards for the deck so that I can play this in DC.

r3dd09
10-10-2013, 11:21 AM
I don’t normally do this, but I decided to write up a short tournament report from the weekly legacy night. I ended up playing the R/G lands deck last night at the weekly local legacy tournament. I have slowly been assembling the deck over the last two weeks and was able to borrow the last 5 cards needed. Thanks Dave and Jeff.

The list is a modified list of Kurt Spiess top 16 build from SCG Philly.

+1 Manabond, +1 Riftstone Portal, +1 Ghost Quarter, -1 Rishadan Port, -1 Crop Rotation, -1 Bojuka Bog.

I wasn’t a huge fan of the original sideboard so I reworked it a little:

+3 Krosan Grip, +1 Crop Rotation, +1 Bojuka Bog, +1 Karakas, +1 Raging Ravine, -3 Seal of Primordium, -1 Trinisphere, -1 Chalice of the Void, -1 Crucible of Worlds, -1 Dark Depths

I get a couple practices games in with elves before the tournament starts; it feels like an awkward matchup at best.

Round One – Storm. We talk a little before we start, he seems like a nice guy but claims that he as several legacy decks but does not play that much. Ok, that’s strange. I tell him that this is a new deck for me, so please bear with me as I may take some time to figure out my lines of play. We continue to have friendly banter through the match.

Game 1: He wins the die roll and drops a Tropical Island, pass. I play an Exploration into a Thespian Stage. He drops a fetch, then Brainstorm/Ponders, fetch for Underground Sea. Pass. I drop two lands, A Dark Depths and Rishadan Port. I have the choice to port him during his turn or go for a 20/20 Gerry Thompson Token (I hate this token, need to find on original). I decide for the token. It didn’t matter. I get a taste of tendrils for 30ish. He could have easily killed me through a port activation.

Game 2: This game goes long. I keep a hand with wasteland and port and loam. I draw a sphere on the third turn and drop it, I start working on his manabase with port activations and wastelands and he can’t recover as I have functionally locked him out of the game. He scoops it up.
Game 3: Turn two sphere, turn three sphere, turn 4 Ethersworn Canonist. GG

1-0 (2-1)

Round Two – RUG Delver. We talk a little before; he seems like a nice guy but claims that he just started playing legacy, riiiggghhhttt. During the first couple turns of the game one you could easily determine this guy as a competent player. I give him two months till he starts to terrorize the store with that deck. I go thought the song and dance about how this could take some time for me because it’s a new deck the interactions are strange.

Game 1. The beginning of the game is a little fuzzy, I tried to punishing fire a first turn delver that gets dazed. There was some cantripping on his end and a couple of missed triggers. Basically what happens is that I have a Thespain Stage, Maze of Ith and two Mox Diamonds out, he has a fetch and a trop and a flipped delver. He wastes my maze I respond by casting Crop Rotation which resolves and I get Dark Depths. Now I have to wait to play around Stifle. He makes a mistake a turn later and cracks his fetchland while tapped out. In response I make a 20/20 Gerry T. GG

Game 2. He goes turn one mongoose. I turn one Exploration and we both start grinding, I eventually get my loam engine online then I end up at four when he dies to my 20/20 Gerry T. This game wasn’t that interesting, just really grindy. I have two mazes for his two goyfs. I can’t easily answer the mongoose, finally dredged the depths to get there. He ended up stifling one of my fetchlands which I thing was a huge mistake. People seem to forget that you can stifle Maze of Ith.

2-0 (4-1)

Round 3 – 12 Post. My opponent has been playing legacy for a while and we chit chat about random stuff. I go through the song and dance about this being a new deck for me. Our games were not interesting or fun.

Game 1: I lock her out, port her basic lands. The only thing of relevance that she does is Bojuka Bog some of my graveyard away, but it didn’t matter as I was hedging against it with an extra loam and wasteland in my hand. I was a little too quick for her to interact.

Game 2: Was much of the same as game 1. I Ghost Quarter her basics and establish the lock and win with the Gerry T Token.

3-0 (6-1)

Round 4 Slivers – WHAT is this? I feel bad saying this with being undefended on the night but once again I tell my opponent to bear with me because this is a new deck for me. This sliver deck can pile on damage soooo fast and crystalline sliver makes it difficult to interact with their creatures. I am not looking forward to this match

Game 1. I cast gamble three times. He pulls the tutored card for the first two gambles. But I got to keep my manabond for the last gamble. With a couple of timely dredges I was able to assembly the tabernacle lock. GG

Game 2 and 3. I get rolled, turn one Vial into a really aggressive start both games while I don’t have the time to assembly a G.Chasm lock. The third game was close, but was unable to find a loam in time to lock him up.

3-1 (7-3) on the night which I am pretty happy with for being my first tournament with the Lands deck.

Gamble was cast 12 times and I only lost 3 of the cards tutored.

Overall I really like the deck a lot. I am going to have to find the last cards for the deck so that I can play this in DC.

Nice report, and good job on your first event with the deck. Like you said, get rid of that Gerry T. Token and you're set ;)

Tyrio
10-10-2013, 11:23 AM
Nice tourny report. You don't really need to play around Stifle if you have nothing else to do with the mana. You should Stage-Depths into Stifle because Stifle can only stop the Stage's copy ability. Once it becomes a Dark Depths Stifle won't do anything because the 0-counter trigger will just trigger again if it gets countered.

Rampart
10-10-2013, 12:40 PM
Nice tourny report. You don't really need to play around Stifle if you have nothing else to do with the mana. You should Stage-Depths into Stifle because Stifle can only stop the Stage's copy ability. Once it becomes a Dark Depths Stifle won't do anything because the 0-counter trigger will just trigger again if it gets countered.

Thanks, I found that out after the second round. I miss-impetrated the wording on the card and didn't read the previous rulings on DD. The T-Stage/DD interaction its really a strange series of triggers.

civet five
10-11-2013, 01:57 AM
Nice report Rampart. I've been wanting to cram a Riftstone Portal into my main and haven't really figured out what I can afford to drop - Riftstone Portal is just great against Moon effects or the rare flooding of non-manaproducing lands and plays so nicely with Mox Diamond. If anything, its the Tabernacle that I want to cut, as its rare that Tabernacle does something for me that Glacial Chasm didn't do anyways.

I actually don't like cutting Crop Rotation, because having 8 instant-speed tutors is part of what makes RG ComboLands so consistent.

Rampart
10-11-2013, 08:39 AM
Nice report Rampart. I've been wanting to cram a Riftstone Portal into my main and haven't really figured out what I can afford to drop - Riftstone Portal is just great against Moon effects or the rare flooding of non-manaproducing lands and plays so nicely with Mox Diamond. If anything, its the Tabernacle that I want to cut, as its rare that Tabernacle does something for me that Glacial Chasm didn't do anyways.

I actually don't like cutting Crop Rotation, because having 8 instant-speed tutors is part of what makes RG ComboLands so consistent.

I really like the tabernacle while I was playing, its really your only answer to a few cards such as Nimble mongoose, Crystalline Sliver, and its really good against some archetypes like, Goblins, Elves (if you can get it early enough), D&T. Now if you meta is filled with a bunch of combo I would move it to the sideboard, I would be afraid to cut if from your seventy five. Also with the lack of Toleria west to tutor for the land you need I like having two options for major creature control.

I "moved" the Bojuka Bog to the sideboard to make space for the Riftstone portal, which was an all-star in correcting all the colorless mana producers that I had.

I didn't cut a Crop Rotation, just moved one to my sideboard. I still think you need access to three Rotation to make the deck quick enough against the combo matchup, but its not great against decks where you have time to find you answers. I am not sure if I want to change back a manabond for a crop rotation, but it is something I should look at the more I play this deck. I don't understand your 8 instant-speed tutor comment thought. Gamble is a sorcery.

civet five
10-11-2013, 09:27 PM
I really like the tabernacle while I was playing, its really your only answer to a few cards such as Nimble mongoose, Crystalline Sliver, and its really good against some archetypes like, Goblins, Elves (if you can get it early enough), D&T. Now if you meta is filled with a bunch of combo I would move it to the sideboard, I would be afraid to cut if from your seventy five. Also with the lack of Toleria west to tutor for the land you need I like having two options for major creature control.

I "moved" the Bojuka Bog to the sideboard to make space for the Riftstone portal, which was an all-star in correcting all the colorless mana producers that I had.

I didn't cut a Crop Rotation, just moved one to my sideboard. I still think you need access to three Rotation to make the deck quick enough against the combo matchup, but its not great against decks where you have time to find you answers. I am not sure if I want to change back a manabond for a crop rotation, but it is something I should look at the more I play this deck. I don't understand your 8 instant-speed tutor comment thought. Gamble is a sorcery.

sorry, brainfart on the instant-speed. I play both Lands and 12Post, and in 12Post I run Expedition Map also (which usually just sits there waiting to get popped), so honest mistake. I still stand by comment at wanting 8 tutors. It might be personal preference, but Crop Rotation is also so good against Wasteland, which I run into a lot, that I can't imagine cutting them to 3.

I'm going to keep tooling around with Riftstone Portal and Bog vs. Tabernacle - the thing about Tabernacle is that I never seem to get the mileage out of it, and against Gobbos it comes down to Piledriver vs. Krenko as the threat. Against other fair decks like D&T, the threat of Tabernacle is often enough to keep them from overextending, which I have found to be sufficient to go find Stage-Depths and one-shot them. It might also work to cut a Cycling land or a Port.

Phelix
10-12-2013, 02:04 AM
It might also work to cut a Cycling land or a Port.

cycling land: maybe.

Port: WHAT THE HELL!

If your seriously thinking of cutting tabernacle, and not getting enough from it, I think your either doing it wrong, or ur meta doesnt contain any creatures.

civet five
10-12-2013, 10:01 PM
cycling land: maybe.

Port: WHAT THE HELL!

If your seriously thinking of cutting tabernacle, and not getting enough from it, I think your either doing it wrong, or ur meta doesnt contain any creatures.

Rampart cut a Port too (or at least moved it to the sideboard, same as I'm considering), though I think after durdling a little this afternoon, the Riftstone Portal just belongs in the side, as a Moon effect isnt nearly as annoying as I originally thought it to be.

I've been playing Combolands with a focus on consistency over control, so Chasm has gotten me most of the way there anyways (buying me enough time to combo out). I'm not 100% sure that Tabernacle belongs in the main vs. the sideboard in this case.

Rampart
10-17-2013, 11:47 AM
My quest to 4-0 the Legacy Night continues (hint: didn’t get there)

I got the last 5 cards in the mail I needed to finish my R/G lands, sleeved them up and was ready to play some legacy. I made some slight changes from last week. I took a Manabond out and added a Crop Rotation. With the crop rotation out of my sideboard I added a Crucible of Worlds.

Deck:

Spells
4x Exploration
4x Life from the loam
3x Crop Rotation
2x Manabond
4x Punishing Fire
4x Gamble
4x Mox Diamond

Lands
4x Wasteland
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
4x Maze of Ith
4x Thespian Stage
3x Tranquil Thicket
3x Rishadan Port
2x Taiga
2x Dark Depths
1x Savannah
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Riftstone Portal

Sideboard
4x Sphere of Resistance
3x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Krosan Grip
1x Karakas
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Raging Ravine
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Dark Depths

Round 1 – Death and Taxes – I am not going to be able to do these two games justice.
Game 1 – We both know what each other is on. He won the roll and went MOM into Stoneforge Mystic get B-Skull. I was able to crop rotate an early Tablernacle and start to establish my board state. He is stuck at two lands forever with no Aether Vial and I am porting during his upkeep when I can. I end up assembly the DD/Stage and I have PFire in my hand to his MOM, B-Skull and two lands. I am at 8 and he is approximately at 36 (lol.) He ends up attaching, in response I PFire the MOM, MOM gives B-skull pro-black which ends up beating me to four life. I make a 20/20 token at the end of his turn. During my turn I dredge loam, finally pull a maze. At this point in the game I start to turn the corner over several turns is effectively stop all his creatures and establish control, clogging up the board state until I finally draw at Manabond and dump 10 lands on the table on one turn, I eventually PFire him out of the game. I ended the Game at 40 life, he got rid of Merit Lage 4 times. This was the coolest game of the night.

Game 2 – My opponent mulligan’s to five and starts off with plains into Aether Vial. Next turn he goes Stoneforge Mystic getting B-Skull. I take a mulligan and go land into grove to PFire the Stoneforge Mystic. His next series of plays was to get vial up to three as he was dropping serra’s avengers, three toughness is surprising annoying. I end up getting two Maze of Ith’s for his two avengers and end up PFiring everything else out till he drops fiend hunter. OH NO, death by fiend hunter is at hand. I fall to 1. I finally dredge Glacial Chasm, I am worried as I don’t have an exploration out, and at one life I can’t sustain it for more than 3 to 4 turns, but none of that matter because he snap quits once I target it with Loam. Ok.

1-0 (2-0)

Round 2 – Manaless Dredge

Game 1 – I win the dice roll and keep a pretty good hand against dredge (thought he was on LED dredge not manaless) all that changes when he reveals a chancellor of the annex as a pre-game effect. Oh crap, what’s the game plan against this craziness? I get tabernacle out on turn two to lock him off the slow creature beat down plan, he starts the dredging process and we have to work through a couple weird triggers as a result to the tabernacle, neither shadow’s and other randomness. Once a B-Spy is revealed, I know what I need to do. I have a Crop Rotation and a Loam in my hand, with and exploration out which allows me to assemble the Glacial Chasm to lock the game out. But I made a mistake, my opponents ends up Cabal Therapying me, I think for a minute and let it resolver, absolutely sure that he is not going to name Crop Rotation, he names Crop Rotation, I lose that turn. I suck.

Game 2 – yeah, I decide to draw. My seven is terrible so I mulligan to a really strong hand. On my turn two I end up Crop Rotating for a tabernacle and dropping a sphere of resistance in to play effectively locking him out of combo. I make a mistake where he starts casting G-Probes and I forget that he has to pay for them, David Price catches the second one and mentions it. The game drags on for a while as he starts beating me down with a pair of Icorids, I fall to eight life and draw Crop Rotation (thank you sweet baby Jesus) I crop into Bojuka Bog and wipe his board (aka his graveyard). The next turn I dredge into a wasteland. I explain to him that I am going to lock him out of his graveyard for the rest of the game with Loam, Bog, and Waste. The sphere of resistance locks him out of spells, do you want to move to the next game? We shuffle up and head to game three.

Game 3 – I am on the play again. He pre-effects me with a Leyline of Sancity (ok?) and a chancellor trigger. I drop a turn two sphere of resistance with a Mox Diamond through the chancellor trigger. Next turn I drop an Eithersworn Canonist. The following turn a cast Crop Rotation and make a 20/20. The look on his face was priceless, apparently he didn’t realize that was something you can do.

2-0 (4-1)

Round 3 – SLIVERS REMATCH

Game 1 – My Opponent wins the role and goes one drop sliver off an Undiscovered Paradise. I drop an Exploration into a Crop Rotation into a tabernacle. Go. His sliver dies (Undiscovered Paradise bounce effect that occurs during the untap step so he can’t pay for the sliver) the next turn I drop two lands gamble for life from the loam which summons a quick concession.

Game 2 – My opponent drops a turn one vial off a land, I waste the land. He ticks his vial up and drops another land. I cast Exploration then play a land to gamble for tabernacle (I lose a PFire) drop the tabernacle. He puts a crystalline sliver into play, I play life from the loam, waste his other land. End of the turns he vials in meddling mage naming wasteland, I tell him he can’t name a land, then he names Life from the Loam. During his up keep the sliver dies and the mage stays, then I PFire it to death. He passes the turn and I assemble the hard waste lock.

Revenge completed

3-0 (6-1)

Round 4 – BUG Delver.

Game 1 – My Opponent mulligan’s to four, land delver go, I waste. He drops a U-Sea, attacked, go. I drop a grove and PFire the delver, the PFire gets dazed. Delver flips, attacks, and he wastes the grove. I play another grove then a Mox Diamond, return PFire, PFire delver, it resolves, go. The game ends quickly in two turns as I start loaming and drop a manabond, the writing in on the wall and we go to the game two.

Game 2 – He starts off with a Nihil Spellbomb, into a DRS, he was able to daze my PFire, Force of Will my Crop Rotation, Hymn the two cards that I need to win, waste my tabernacle and drop a lillana. To be honest that game was really rough for me, he basically dismantled everything in a couple of turns, I was playing to my outs and was able to get a dark depths out, I nut drew a crop rotation and was able to assemble the Stage/DD combo to his lillana of the veil on 7 counters, and spellbomb. We then spend some time talking about what the potential outs where, basically he needed a wasteland or another Lillana of the Veil. He ultimated Lilly, in response I made the token, the pile split was the token and everything else (mox and two lands), I took the token, he popped the bomb and dropped the Lilliana, then dropped a deathrite shaman. On to game three (yes, he did draw the lilly of the bomb)

Game 3 - I go first turn manabond, which gets force of willed. He goes delver, I waste his sea. He draws, plays a fetch and drops a DRS, pass, I drop a Mox Diamond, Gamble for DD (I had stage in my hand, if he hits any of the combo land pieces I drop a mana producing land and cast loam to put them back into my hand, he pulls a random useless land) I drop Maze of Ith. pass. Delver flips, maze gets wasted, smack for three. I play a DD and pass, I get domed for two at the end of the turn by DRS. He plays land then a Tarmogoyf, attacks for three. Pass. I drop the Stage, and now have a decision to make; he has two/three cards in his hand. I haven’t seen any ponders this game yet and only one brainstorm. I can make the token now and play around his three wastelands, or I can wait and play around the two Lillana of the Veil. He currently only has two lands and a DRS. I figure it would be easier for him to dig for the waste, so I make the token now. He draws and drops the lilly, edicts me, swing with the dudes. And the game is over the following turn.

3-1 (7-3)

I like the switch from the manabond to the Crop Rotation, while I believe that manabond is a more “powerful” card the crop rotation, the flexability that Crop Rotation give in the deck is hard to match. Oh and Tabernacle was the best card in my deck today.

kingofethanol
10-20-2013, 02:31 PM
// Lands
1 [A] Bayou
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [DIS] Ghost Quarter
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [WWK] Creeping Tar Pit
1 [LG] Karakas
3 [FUT] Grove of the Burnwillows
1 [A] Taiga
2 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [A] Tropical Island
3 [FUT] Tolaria West
3 [DK] Maze of Ith
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [GTC] Thespian's Stage
1 [CS] Dark Depths
1 [UNH] Forest
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [CMD] Bojuka Bog

// Spells
3 [TE] Intuition
4 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [IA] Zuran Orb
4 [US] Exploration
3 [ZEN] Punishing Fire
1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
1 [CMD] Oblivion Stone

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 3 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst(couldn't find the Spheres)
SB: 1 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void


I believe you were the one who suggested Geist of St. Traft in the board. Did that prove to be ineffective, or is Bob vs. Geist a meta call?

What do you side Sphere of Resistance in for? Some of us on this thread were discussing Thalia so we're not cold to an EOT Hurkyl's Recall/Rebuild. What are your thoughts on this?

Rook1e
10-20-2013, 10:54 PM
Hi guys.

Just wanted to share my recent list for discussion:

Land (36)
1x Academy Ruins
1x Bayou
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Dark Depths
1x Glacial Chasm
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Karakas
3x Maze of Ith
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Riftstone Portal
4x Rishadan Port
1x Savannah
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Thespian's Stage
2x Tolaria West
2x Tranquil Thicket
3x Tropical Island
1x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
Instant (10)
3x Crop Rotation
1x Enlightened Tutor
3x Intuition
3x Punishing Fire

Artifact (6)
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Engineered Explosives
4x Mox Diamond

Sorcery (4)
4x Life from the Loam

Enchantment (4)
4x Exploration

Sideboard (15)
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Ashen Rider
1x Chalice of the Void
4x Dark Confidant
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Trinisphere

My latest changes:

-1 Forest: Since i've cut the Krosan Grib's from by sideboard, the Forest seemed unnecessary. (I know, i know - i'll one day be punished gruesomely by a Blood Moon)
-1 Manabond: Well, i really never liked this card. It sometimes (read: almost never) gave an explosive start. Also i sucks to have to 'play' Thicket and Tolaria.
-1 Taiga: Well, since the inclusion of E.Tutor to main i wanted to go up a fetch to be able to get a Savannah on T1 and Taiga got the Axe.

+1 Riftstone Portal: Haven't tried this yet, but i have wanted to for a long time. It's a good target for both Mox and Crop. It also makes your Tabernacle, Maze and Depths tap for mana
+1 Misty Rainforest: See above
+1 Enligtened Tutor: I'm really exited to try this out and if it is as good as i hope i'll cut a Intuition and add a 2nd. It seems really good to be able to fetch your sideboardhate, but mainly it's included as Exploration #5 over Manabond.

I'd really like to try the following in the near future, but i don't know what to cut yet:

1x Ghost Quarter: Cut it some time ago, but i kinda miss it when facing RUG and ANT
1x Nephalia Drownyard: Some guys over at MTGS recommended it.

I would also like to improve my Nic Fit/Explorer Pod macthup and i also feel that i need answers to Geist. Any suggestions?

Phelix
10-21-2013, 01:24 AM
forest is clever in many ways. one of them being your own ghost quarter :)


nic fit -especially with wish is just horrible. I dont think we have a fix for it.

Rook1e
10-21-2013, 01:44 AM
forest is clever in many ways. one of them being your own ghost quarter :)

I'm not sure i know what you are talking about? - besides if you are referring to the possibility of facing a Ghost Quarter on the opposite of the table and not being able to find a Forest? ...and if so, i have yet to see a deck - other than lands - that run's GC in Legacy! (But hey, i could be wrong)

cuthbertthecat
10-21-2013, 03:13 AM
I'm not sure i know what you are talking about? - besides if you are referring to the possibility of facing a Ghost Quarter on the opposite of the table and not being able to find a Forest? ...and if so, i have yet to see a deck - other than lands - that run's GC in Legacy! (But hey, i could be wrong)

He means being able to ghost quarter yourself for green, which is actually a pretty nice option to have in a lot of games.

As for nephalia drownyard, I would suggest against it. It kills slower than Tar Pit, doesn't kill planeswalkers, and does nothing against the emrakul decks of the format.

Rook1e
10-21-2013, 03:25 AM
He means being able to ghost quarter yourself for green, which is actually a pretty nice option to have in a lot of games.

As for nephalia drownyard, I would suggest against it. It kills slower than Tar Pit, doesn't kill planeswalkers, and does nothing against the emrakul decks of the format.

Well, since this deck isn't particular fast - if you have to GC yourself to get G, it's probably already over in my experience.

My thought exactly, just wanted to run it by you guys :)

Phelix
10-21-2013, 06:10 AM
Well, since this deck isn't particular fast - if you have to GC yourself to get G, it's probably already over in my experience.

My thought exactly, just wanted to run it by you guys :)

Incorrect.

Not for for your first green, could easily be a valuemove on turn one or two (with moxes)

I think ive won at least 15 sanctioned games where i ghost quartered myself.

Rook1e
10-21-2013, 01:58 PM
Incorrect.

Not for for your first green, could easily be a valuemove on turn one or two (with moxes)

I think ive won at least 15 sanctioned games where i ghost quartered myself.

Well, your experience vs. mine then.

cuthbertthecat
10-21-2013, 04:44 PM
Well, your experience vs. mine then.

When I played this deck, I used it for my first green a lot. Then again, I'm greedier than most people.

Rook1e
10-21-2013, 04:47 PM
When I played this deck, I used it for my first green a lot. Then again, I'm greedier than most people.

Ok. Seems i'm the odd one here. So, can anyone tell me what i should cut for making room for at CG? (I'm not ready to put a Forest back in yet though)

cuthbertthecat
10-21-2013, 05:15 PM
Ok. Seems i'm the odd one here. So, can anyone tell me what i should cut for making room for at CG? (I'm not ready to put a Forest back in yet though)

From your list, I would say Riftstone Portal. I would also suggest cutting the Bojuka Bog for a forest; even though bog with rotation is nice, most of the decks that get enough value out of their graveyard to make bog worthwhile are good matchups anyway.

Rook1e
10-21-2013, 05:26 PM
From your list, I would say Riftstone Portal. I would also suggest cutting the Bojuka Bog for a forest; even though bog with rotation is nice, most of the decks that get enough value out of their graveyard to make bog worthwhile are good matchups anyway.

As mentioned, i've just put the Portal in my deck. Not giving up on it yet. So far it has been awesome - acting as a pseudo forest and making all lands tap for mana.

Koplinchen
10-21-2013, 06:17 PM
Well, your experience vs. mine then.

You have to play with this deck a lot. It is really a very difficult to play correctly.

I think basic forest is necessary. I have beaten lands most often that I countered Mox Diamond, wasted their Tropico and then they could not find another green through Jace fateseal... Sometimes you can bring more land from graveyard with loam, you can ghost quarter yourself, or you want re-use Bojuka...

psilocyde
10-21-2013, 09:37 PM
As for nephalia drownyard, I would suggest against it. It kills slower than Tar Pit, doesn't kill planeswalkers, and does nothing against the emrakul decks of the format.

I tested drownyard and loved it. It was an all-star against top, brainstorm and ponder. Just have to read their reactions while looking at cards and you easily ruin their day. It also won a few games against miracles. I did not really put it in to win but more as another form of disruption.

KntrellCL
10-21-2013, 10:11 PM
Well, your experience vs. mine then.



He only top'ed 16 in a 1350 players tournament. Undefeated day 1... thats a lot.

I think nobody will agree to cut the forest. For me, the forest is the disguise hero of every match up. Lands plays a lot of non green sources, and the forest will ensure you loam for ever.

Rook1e
10-23-2013, 05:24 PM
He only top'ed 16 in a 1350 players tournament. Undefeated day 1... thats a lot.

I think nobody will agree to cut the forest. For me, the forest is the disguise hero of every match up. Lands plays a lot of non green sources, and the forest will ensure you loam for ever.

Good for him.. I'm not saying that he's wrong. I'm just stating that so far, i haven't been in a situation where i've needed it. I know that i've only played around 50-75 games with Lands so far, so it's not that much. But so far i'm not missing it and the Portal is working wonders for me in its place.

snorlaxcom
10-24-2013, 01:50 PM
Geist is a pain. I may add a factory or two to combat them because Tarpit can't answer Geist in time. I have added a Pyroclasm to my board to shore up the creature matchups, hit DRS, and Giest. Miracles has a harder manabase to disrupt so against Geist I try to assemble a EE lock as fast as possible as decks with Geist also have other valuable 3CMC targets (ie Blood Moon, Detention Sphere).