[Deck] 43 Lands

[Tao]

This primer update was sent to me by cuthbertthecat. It was written by Malacoda and him. Major props to them, the primer is very good and if you are new to the deck I would recommend reading it before playing a game because the deck is quite complicated to play (though also very rewarding). But even if you are already experienced with Lands you might find new tricks.


Lands!

Contents:

I. History
II. Strategy
III. About the Deck
IV. Card Choices
V. Sample Decklists
VI. Sideboarding
VII. Matchup Analysis
VIII. Tips and Tricks
IX. Pimped Decks


I.History

Lands was developed in 2006 and first earned mainstream recognition when it went 7-0-1 at German Nationals. The earliest versions of the deck ran 43 lands (hence the name of the deck for many years) and ran a unique card advantage engine powered by Life From the Loam and Mulch and driven by the accelerants Exploration and Manabond. The deck ran a mana denial plan with Wasteland and Rishadan Port, which could easily take over a game combined with the Loam engine. The kill? Nantuko Monastery, or even Roar of the Wurm, at least in the first lists.

/Note by me (Tao):
The deck was initially developed in my small student flat back then. A friend of mine (S. Thomsen, the guy who went 7-0-1 and is an exceptional player with this deck with consistent X-1 or X-0 finishes) came to me and showed me a list on a German site (mercadia.de). It was quite close to what he later played but very unrefined. It had no SB and used Standstill as card draw but it already had the main engine of Exploration, Manabond, Maze, Tabernacle, Wastelands, Ports, Cycle Lands, Factories and Loam. We tinkered around with it a bit and were surprised because it performed extremely well, playing good against most things and autowinning against the deck to beat Landstill. We refined the list (adding Barbarian Ring, Mulch, Nantuko Monestary, a SB, getting rid of Standstill and a few bad lands) and the deck was heavily favored against everything with the exception of the bad matchups Solidarity and Burn with PoP. /end Note


From there, Lands shifted from primarily mono-green into a red-green deck that capitalized on the power of Gamble and Burning Wish as versatile tutors. Players soon realized the potential in Tolaria West and began testing builds of the deck that used blue instead of red. Tolaria West's flexibility proved to be a great fit for the deck, and the equally flexible tutor Intuition joined the deck. Decks dropped the number of Lands down below 40, as the deck began to use a greater number of artifacts such as Mox Diamond with Academy Ruins. These decks also began to run a "big finisher" artifact, usually Oblivion Stone or Mindslaver.
Soon after Intuition was developed, certain players began to see Enlightened Tutor as a card that could potentially give the deck even more flexibility. Michael Caffrey Top 32ed with the deck at a Star City Games Open and wrote a primer for Enlightened Tutor Lands, found here- http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21390_Enlightened_Tutor_Lands_A_Complete_Primer.html. Mental Misstep was then printed, and, like many other decks, Lands was hated out and drifted out of the meta. Now that Misstep is long out of the meta, it's a great place for Lands, overrun by tempo decks and unstable manabases. Most players now use either Intuition or Enlightened Tutor as the main engine for the deck alongside Life From the Loam.


II. Strategy

Ideally, each game should go something a bit like this-
1. Resolve an accelerant (Manabond, Exploration, Mox Diamond to a lesser extent).
2. Disrupt your opponent’s mana with the use of Rishadan Port, Wasteland, and Ghost Quarter (the Quarter usually needs to be recurred several times to have any real effect, however, against decks with the mono-nonbasic manabase it’s a fifth wasteland).
3. Tutor for or naturally have a Life from the Loam or Crucible of Worlds to recur Wasteland and Ghost Quarter to further decimate your opponent’s manabase.
4. Play a Maze of Ith or Glacial Chasm to stall any threats your opponents have resolved.
5. Get Tolaria West with Life from the Loam, transmuting for answers to threats that are still presenting a problem. Search for Zuran Orb if you fear burn.
6. Transmute Tolaria West for Creeping Tar Pit, Mishra’s Factory, Inkmoth Nexus, etc. and win the game.
If every game was as cut and dry as this, Lands would easily be the best deck in the format and people would be crying for the banning of Life from the Loam. In actuality, quite a few games can go awry depending on the level of interaction your opponent can force. Let’s go through the steps again, but see what happens when our opponent can interact, and when the lands player plays sub optimally. For this example, the Lands player is playing against a build of RUG Delver that has eschewed Stifle for Spell Pierce-
1. Get Exploration off of Tropical Island Daze’d.
2. Wasteland the opponent once, they draw four fetches afterwards. Complain about how lucky the opponent is.
3. Get your Intuition, Enlightened Tutor, Entomb, Gamble, etc. Spell Pierced.
4. Play a Glacial Chasm to your opponent’s board of four threats, they Wasteland it and put you to six life.
5. Transmute Tolaria West for Zuran Orb in a desperate attempt to stay alive.
6. They turn you into a Phyrexian Negator for a turn and Spell Snare the Life from the Loam you draw on turn 8. You die to a board of creatures.
7. Dismiss Lands as a clunky, terrible deck reserved for petdecking Legacy scrubs. After all, you couldn’t possibly have misplayed or missed some subtle interactions, right?
In this sequence of events, the Lands player made a series of mediocre plays that spiraled out of control as the game progressed. Let’s go through these plays-
1. The Lands player ran the Exploration into an island without a mana open. It’s usually unwise to do this, although if the island in question is Tundra, the chance of your opponent running Daze is significantly less.
2. Wasteland was fired off with no intent of recurring it. Wasteland can be used strategically to cut your opponent off of mana on a turn where you want to resolve a spell, such as the one that was Spell Pierced in step three. If instead of Wastelanding the first land that was seen, the Lands player had waited until the opponent tapped low for a threat and had only one available mana source, the Lands player could have Wastelanded their mana source at the end of a phase so the mana the opponent would float would empty and then cast their tutor effect when they receive priority in the next phase, leaving Force of Will to be the opponent’s only answer.
3. The opponent shouldn’t have had mana to Spell Pierce the tutor effect in the first place if Wasteland was utilized correctly.
4. If the tutor effect had resolved, you would likely have a more elegant answer to the board of attacking creatures, such as Ensnaring Bridge, Academy Ruins with Engineered Explosives, or a Life from the Loam to recur the Glacial Chasm if it was indeed your only out.
5. If the game had stabilized in step 4, the Tolaria West could search for the Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, ensuring that the opponent couldn’t commit any more threats to the board.
6. The Zuran Orb would be unnecessary as well, outside of adding insurance against runner-runner burn effects from the opponent.

Your playstyle should change based on the matchup. Against slow control decks, resolving an accelerant isn’t as high a priority, as simply making a land drop each turn is often enough to keep up with them. Against fast aggro decks, stabilizing the board with Maze of Ith and Engineered Explosives until you can resolve Zuran Orb is often the best strategy. Against combo, this decks Achilles’ heel, the best plan is to disrupt their mana and gain enough life to make winning for them impossible, or to tutor for a silver bullet that helps the matchup. Against aggro control, keeping the impact of their Knight of the Reliquary to a minimum by tutoring for redundant lands and keeping them off four mana for Jace, the Mind Sculptor are crucial.


When playing this deck, keep in mind that stabilizing and locking up the board is priority number one, and that winning the game afterwards is elementary. Don’t bother tutoring for a way to win until you are very comfortable with the board state. If anything, if your opponent isn’t scooping, make the first game go longer than it has to. After all, a 1-0 win is still a win. Recur Mox Diamond every turn with Academy Ruins to deck your opponent if they won’t concede (each turn, stack and play the Mox Diamond, don’t discard a land so it dies, rinse and repeat). Starting game two with five minutes on the clock with the match in your favor is something you’ll get used to as a Lands player, and it feels great.

Doing things for the most time value is a very crucial aspect of playing this deck. If you’re Rishadan Porting your opponent at upkeep with multiple Ports, announce and resolve them individually. If you’re recurring Ghost Quarter, resolve the activations individually and cut your opponent’s deck after each search. If you transmute Tolaria West knowing what you want to search, look through your entire deck to make sure you aren’t overlooking anything, and count it up to see how many more times you can dredge. If you have a Manabond in play and don’t wish to use it, announce the trigger and declare that you aren’t resolving it. Things like this don’t add too much time separately, but doing many of them per game often leads to forty minute game ones, which is exactly where this deck wants to be. This may sound like borderline cheating, but it’s actually playing in a fashion that allows for no confusion on the events of the game, while also being beneficial to this deck’s strategy.


III. About the Deck

Due to this deck’s usage of obscure cards, high learning curve, and high monetary value, Lands isn’t really a format staple. It does, however, possess the tools to dispatch every non-combo deck in the format, making top 8’s at multiple Star City Games opens, and top 16-64’s at various Grand Prixs and Star City Games opens.


IV. Card Choices

A. Tutors

-Intuition offers more flexibility than any of our other tutors, but it comes at a great price - it is very slow. It costs 2 mana more than any of the other tutors and it often takes a couple turns to fully set up after an Intuition. However, you can generate ridiculous advantage here by making piles such as Crucible of Worlds + Academy Ruins + Life From the Loam or Loam + Tolaria West +Tranquil Thicket or even triple Exploration (Intuition as Demonic Tutor). Note that you lose 2 accelerants if you use this method. These can often be sideboarded out.

-Entomb This tutor isn’t all too versatile; it can’t find accelerants on its own and can’t find artifact silver bullets without the help of Academy Ruins. It is very good at finding Loam though, and for finding silver bullet lands if you already have Loam. Another tutor that can be sideboarded out.


-Crop Rotation
This is a risky tutor in that if it’s countered, you get two for one’d. It also can’t search Loam, a huge reason tutors are included in Lands in the first place. Don’t run it as your only tutor, and have a good reason to run it at all. The best aspects of this tutor are instant speed Bojuka Bog and Glacial Chasm, both of which have their merits.

-Enlightened Tutor
This tutor is very good for this style of deck, where you can search for every part of your strategy. Need to recur Wasteland? Search Crucible of Worlds. Have Loam, but you can only play one land a turn? Search Exploration/Manabond. Scavenging Ooze threatening to destroy your graveyard? Search Cursed Totem. RUG Delver putting a bunch of dudes on the board? Search Ensnaring Bridge. The possibilities with this card are endless, and it even gets better postboard, unlike many of this deck’s tutors. Definitely a solid choice.

-Gamble
Despite the card name, this card isn’t often a gamble. Either a), you’re searching for Loam and you don’t really care what you discard, or b), you’re searching for an accelerant and your hand is likely already padded with lands. It is slightly risky though, and don’t be surprised if that Manabond you tutored for gets discarded. A fine card for this deck, although red doesn’t add too much else to this deck.


B. Lands

-Academy Ruins serves both as a powerful recursion engine for the many artifacts most builds run and as the engine behind our wincons. It also saves us from fringe effects like Painter-Stone and can keep us alive after a Jace ultimate.

-Tolaria West = Demonic Tutor for our lands. It gets any land, recurs, and can also find things with CMC 0 such as Engineered Explosives and Chalice of the Void. You can also use it to find Mox Diamonds if there's not really anything else to do in order to build up mana advantage. The optimal number is 3.

-Wasteland is everywhere in the format due to the omnipresence of dual lands. We get to run more of them than any other deck out there. Run 4.

-Rishadan Port was first used in Goblins as a mana denial tactic and it's the same here. Tapping an opponent down on upkeep or during combat can make or break many games. Port especially shines in matchups like Stoneblade, where you've got to keep them off 4 mana at all costs.

-The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale is a huge sweeping removal spell that serves double duty as mana denial. Be aware that it doesn't produce mana on its own. You only need one, but you need it. Lists have run an extra copy in the board when tribal decks were dominant.

-Maze of Ith also does not produce mana, but is a hugely effective piece of creature removal. It can win singlehandedly against some decks, and is great against the thresh decks running around, which run just a few creatures.

-Glacial Chasm is our best "Oh, shit," button. It has many drawbacks, but most of them mean nothing to the deck when your opponents cannot deal damage and when you're recurring lands every turn. It auto-wins against decks without Wasteland that seek to kill through ground damage since it results in an infinite loop with Life From the Loam, and can thus even beat decks that cheat out Progenitus T1 or T2. You only need one. Be very aware that you can get blown out by Wasteland when using it. Often times when you have to play this card, it implies that you’ve misplayed at some point to back yourself into a corner where Chasm is your only out. In games where you’re forced to go for Chasm, evaluate what you could’ve done differently that game and where things went wrong. It is invaluable and unique in certain matchups though, such as Burn, Zoo, and Belcher, and is often the best option there.

-Tranquil Thicket and Horizon Canopy serve as CA for the deck, and can be used to Loam multiple times in one turn lategame. Both can "save" Loam from Surgical Extraction by drawing in response, dredging Loam back to your hand and fizzling Surgical. Horizon Canopy also fixes, but the life loss is not irrelevant. Canopy has great synergy with Crucible, making it a fine choice for Enlightened Tutor builds. Most lists run 2-3 Thicket, however.

-Karakas is pretty much an auto-win against Reanimator and can be the same for Show and Tell decks. It also provides white in E-Tutor builds. If you don't run it main, you should have one side boarded. Can also bounce Gaddock Teeg to let you sneak an Engineered Explosives through.

-Bojuka Bog can be either maindecked or sideboarded if you wish, as it's generally a meta call. It can be mained in a meta where Threshold, Snapcaster, Reanimator, and Knight of the Reliquary are king,.

-Ghost Quarter serves as an alternate Wasteland for problem lands if Waste is extracted and can also be used to Quarter lock someone - recurring Ghost Quarter enough times to entirely lock your opponents out of mana. It can also be used on your own lands such as Bojuka Bog or Tolaria Wests that have made it into play in order to reuse them via Loam. Can also act as a faux fetchland for your one-of basic forest.

-Mishra's Factory is a standard mainland in most lists. It is an effective blocker, can answer Planeswalker on a clear board, and can be a win condition. While not necessary, many lists run 2-3. A fine inclusion.

-Creeping Tar Pit is the best answer to Jace, who is a real problem for the deck. It's also an effective win condition and usable as a blocker if necessary.

-Inkmoth Nexus is a good way to block creatures, the -1/-1 counters can accumulate and kill Goyfs and Mongeese. It has a low power, so sneaking it under your own Ensnaring Bridge is very easy, and flying is relevant to block Vendilion Clique. Not a good choice as your only wincon, as it can never deal with Jace, but a fine inclusion if you want additional ways to win.

-Cabal Pit is an effective land as removal, but has the problem of being unreliable in terms of Threshold, especially post-board. I've found it to be generally win-more, and it's extremely aggravating having it on the field when there's also a Scavenging Ooze out.

-Barbarian Ring is basically the same as Cabal Pit, except that it can shoot players as well. I don't think it's a good choice because it requires us to splash red with an already 3-4 color manabase.

-Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth is huge in a deck that runs up to 6 lands that don't produce mana (Maze of Ith,Tabernacle, Glacial Chasm). It is mostly preferred in the big-mana build with Intuition and a full set of Manabonds. Be aware that it allows your opponents' fetches to tap for mana.

-Riftstone Portal is similar to Urborg, but is less reliable despite the fact that it is more one-sided. Most people prefer Urborg. It is a good sideboard option to beat Blood Moon.

-Forest. Yes, a basic Forest. It helps you do things under Blood Moon and allows you to capitalize on mutual search effects and play around Wasteland. You only need one.

-Fetchlands are ubiquitous to the Legacy format for a reason, and Lands is no exception. Even a single fetch will smooth your game along by ridiculous amounts. Run 4-5, all green. Most people diversify to dodge Extraction/Extirpate.

-Duals are pretty helpful in a deck that regularly wants 4 colors. Run 5-6, all green.


C. Artifacts

-Zuran Orb is a good card in a deck that runs more than half lands. It should see a place somewhere in your 75, though it is often a meta call whether it should be main or sideboarded. It is quite good in the current meta, and can just singlehandedly win against some decks.

-Engineered Explosives is our most versatile answer to permanents. We have access to 4 and often even 5 colors, allowing us to blow up almost every permanent in the format. Run one maindeck for sure, and many lists run one sideboarded as well.

-Oblivion Stone is less versatile but has the upside of being able to save our stuff and to blow up their entire board at once. Keep in mind it's a fair bit more mana-intensive than EE, but works great all the same.

-Ensnaring Bridge should also have a place somewhere in the 75, and probably main. The deck often drops its hand quite quickly, and Bridge shuts down tons of decks for good if it resolves.

-Crucible of Worlds is fairly self-explanatory here. It's a good alternative engine to Loam, especially in this meta where Snapcaster/Surgical runs rampant. It's exceptional in the Enlightened Tutor lists.

-Sensei's Divining Top is most often seen in E-Tutor builds. It allows us to Loam more accurately, saves us from our Bobs postboard, and saves Loam from Surgical.

-Mox Diamond serves both as an accelerant and as a nonland mana source that synergies incredibly with the list. Most lists run 4.


D. Enchantments

Lands is powered by accelerants; without them we're far less efficient at the mana-denial plan and in general since we can't continue to build up CA.

-Exploration is the deck's most powerful engine. Consistent and always usable, it allows us to develop as efficiently as possible. The deck needs the full set in every version.

-Manabond is the deck's alternate engine. It can potentially provide extremely explosive starts, but it is far harder to work with than Exploration, and can lead to serious blowouts in Games 2 and 3. Run 2-4, and know that 2-4 will be boarded out in every single game.


E. Win Conditions

One of the many advantages of playing Lands is that your options for win conditions are very plentiful and flexible, as they come in both land and nonland form. Decks do not need very many win conditions.

Land Wincons:

-Creeping Tar Pit has become the go-to manland for this deck, as most versions run blue, and he both kills planes walkers and breaks through clogged board states.

-Nantuko Monastery has generally fallen out of favor, but it isn't really considered a bad choice. Keep in mind that while Threshold is common, it is not guaranteed, and will become harder to achieve while you're fighting through hate in Games 2 and 3.

-Mishra's Factory is a fairly common manland in most builds as it gets better in multiples and blocks on the ground when necessary, then recurs. It's also a finisher, albeit a slow one.

-Barbarian Ring is still quite good in lists that run or splash red, as it can kill a player when looped with Loam and is excellent as spot removal, if you can supply the red and if you have Threshold. It can even kill 4/4s when Loamed correctly. Remember that you can stack the triggers in your favor if you have both Smokestack and Tabernacle on the battlefield.

-Treetop Village is another option. While it does come in tapped and require 2 to activate, it can tear through fields of Snapcasters and Stoneforges to kill a Jace. It also produces green, which is always a plus.

-Inkmoth Nexus has the same speed as a Mishra’s Factory with the downside of not benefiting from your opponents damaging themselves and the upside of being able to block and kill bigger creatures over a series of turns. Not an orthodox choice, but something worth considering.


Nonland Wincons:

-Mindslaver, when recurred with Academy Ruins, creates a lock that does not allow your opponent to do anything for the rest of the game. It is powerful, but costing 14 mana hurts, and it is vulnerable to grave hate when the loop is setting up. Most builds running this typically run Intuition and Riftstone Portal or Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to make the mana easier.

-Smokestack is the fastest of the artifact wins, and it's a good way to get rid of Jace or other hard-to-deal with permanents. It can be quite a fast clock as well, locking out an opponent's board in turns. It is also huge and flashy, and can often eat a counterspell for one of your more important spell. It's a solid "Oh, shit," button for the deck.

-Oblivion Stone is similar to Smokestack, but is less flexible in that it blows up everything most of the time and is very mana intensive. It is another "Oh, shit," button. It can work in E-Tutor, but works better in the big-mana build with Intuition. It's still a great answer to "everything," since we have serious trouble with things that have CMC 6+.

-Engineered Explosives can lock out an opponent if necessary. In this way, you blow up all of the ir permanents for the rest of the game and eventually mill them out, recurring Explosives with Academy Ruins. This should not be considered the main kill plan.

-Worm Harvest can easily produce 15+ tokens in just two activations. However, unlike the rest of our wincons, it's 100% dependent on the presence of your graveyard, and while it does kill planeswalkers and give us a faster clock, I don't feel that it's as effective as Smokestack since it can't answer permanents. Also, it’s pretty bad with Tabernacle, requiring you to Waste your own land before your upkeep.

-Mox Diamond Sometimes your wincon gets Swords to Plowsharesed and decking them is your best option. This way requires you to input no mana beyond the Academy Ruins +1U, and it’s embarrassing for the opponent.


V. Sample Decklists

A. Intuition Lands
Chris Woltereck (Slightly dated, although a good starting point if you want to run four Manabond and only use Intuition as your tutor)
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Exploration
4 Manabond
4 Intuition
1 Mindslaver
4 Life from the Loam
1 Forest
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Bayou
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Maze of Ith
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Rishadan Port
1 Taiga
3 Tolaria West
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Academy Ruins
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Sideboard:
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Smokestack
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Zuran Orb
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Extirpate
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Karakas

B. Enlightened Tutor Lands
Malacoda’s List
Spells (24)
4x Exploration
4x Life from the Loam
4x Mox Diamond
3x Enlightened Tutor
2x Manabond
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Pithing Needle
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Smokestack
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Zuran Orb

Lands (37)
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
3x Tropical Island
3x Maze of Ith
3x Tolaria West
2x Tranquil Thicket
2x Mishra's Factory
2x Verdant Catacombs
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Academy Ruins
1x Bayou
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Savannah
1x Forest
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Karakas
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Sideboard(15)
4x Dark Confidant
2x Extirpate
1x Pithing Needle
1x Sylvok Replica
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Tower of the Magistrate
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Circle of Protection: Red
1x Phyrexian Revoker

C. Intuition With Enlightened Tutor Lands

Cuthbertthecat’s List

4 Exploration
4 Life from the Loam
4 Intuition
4 Mox Diamond
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Manabond
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Cursed Totem
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Zuran Orb
4 Maze of Ith
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
3 Tolaria West
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm

Sideboard:

1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Circle of Protection:Red
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Dark Confidant
3 Oblivion Stone


VI. Sideboarding

To decrease redundancy, I have not included cards I previously mentioned in section IV: Card Choices.

The Man Plan: Because in Games 2 and 3 your opponents will be bringing in graveyard hate and because they will most likely be boarding out much of their removal, bringing in creatures that act as alternative engines for you can be huge.

Dark Confidant is a phenomenal creature in a deck whose total CMC often equals 30. Spinning him T1 off a Mox is a very good way to put a start in your favor. He also puts in a sizeable clock against combo decks and can serve as a blocker if necessary. He is the primary choice for the man plan.

Knight of the Reliquary also has been used as a postboard creature, but he is not usually recommended. While he is a Tolaria West every turn on a huge beater, he is poor early game, and does not provide us card advantage. He is also vulnerable to grave hate, and his colors are more difficult. `

Graveyard Hate:

Extirpate is generally better than Surgical Extraction is for us sine we have access to black and don't like getting our spells countered, but being able to cast the latter for free isn't irrelevant. It's the best hate for other Loam decks and is just generally good. I side Extirpates in for most MUs since they can hit fetches at worst and real problem cards at best.

Tormod's Crypt is the quintessential one-shot GY hate. It is super strong in our deck since we can a) transmute for it with Tolaria West and b) recur it infinitely with Academy Ruins. Run at least one SB, and maybe even 1 MD in E-Tutor builds with GY-heavy metas.

Relic of Progenitus is obviously not a good option for a graveyard deck to run.

Leyline of the Void is obviously the best graveyard hate card, but it's the hardest to keep in play and having to mull into it really sucks since it loses a ton of its effectiveness after the first turns, even if we do manage to draw and play it. That, and the fact that you need a set, means that Leyline usually isn't good enough.

Grafdigger's Cage is cool GY hate that doesn't affect us and has splash damage against Maverick and Nic Fit decks. I don't think it's as strong as Crypt or Extirpate, but I wouldn't call it bad, and in some metas it may even deserve a maindeck slot alongside E-Tutor.


Combo Hate:

Ethersworn Canonist Stops Storm from doing their thing while also presenting a clock. A good inclusion.

Chalice of the Void Good against Storm and against most blue decks. A very good inclusion.

Mindbreak Trap Good against Storm, although it is best when paired with another piece of hate, preferably one that provides a clock. Not a very good inclusion because of its lack of versatility.


General Utility:

Krosan Grip Catch all artifact/enchantment hate and uncounterable, but it’s pretty slow and often doesn’t do enough. A fine card if you have room, however.

Pithing Needle Stops problem activated abilities like Scavenging Ooze, Jace, Relic, and Crypt. A fine inclusion.

Phyrexian Revoker Does the same thing as Needle, but with a clock and actually good against Storm. Very playable.

Tower of the Magistrate Serves as a fifth Maze against Stoneblade by giving Batterskull’s Germ pro artifacts in case they Extraction your Mazes. A narrow card, but a fine inclusion nonetheless. It also has fringe applications against MUD and Affinity.

Phyrexian Metamorph Good at copying legendary creatures like Iona. Can also do neat things by copying Knight of the Reliquary. A decent inclusion, but it often just sits in the sideboard for a whole tournament.

Circle of Protection: Red Extra insurance against Burn. It’s becoming more and more necessary with the increased popularity of red mages as of late.

Null Rod Good against Storm and Affinity, but it does shut down some of your own cards. A weak slot.

Cursed Totem Great against Maverick and Combo Elves, mediocre elsewhere. If you expect large numbers of Maverick, it can be maindecked without too much drawback.



VII. Matchup Analysis

Very Positive

Reanimator - All lists run Maze of Ith and Glacial Chasm main, and a lot of lists of Reanimator don’t play any outs. A shroudy guy can sometimes get there, but usually an opportunity to get chasm presents itself.

Dredge – Many lists don’t have outs to Glacial Chasm or Ensnaring Bridge, and Waste + your own manland exiles their Bridges. Postboard, you get to recur Tormod’s Crypt with Academy Ruins. Beware of Iona on green.


Positive

Zoo – They’re a creature deck with a curve centered at one with a heavy non-basic manabase that usually doesn’t run wasteland. The only reason this matchup isn’t extremely positive is because of Price of Progress randomly stealing them games.

Merfolk – Tabernacle is very good against their jam a bunch of lords plan, and they can’t beat Ensnaring Bridge. On occasion, they can bury you in permission and sideboard back to basics, but it’s rare that they have permission with a formidable clock.

B/x Pox- You are both Loam decks, but Lands can actually play extra lands, making smallpox terrible against us. Their Cursed Scrolls get Explosivesed, and their Nether Spirit gets lost in the Maze of Ith.

U/G/x Tempo (RUG / Team America)- They are an aggro deck with a bad manabase and mostly taxing and conditional counters. They can sometimes ride a Nimble Mongoose for 21 with heavy permission backup, but often you’ll just resolve an Engineered Explosives or Ensnaring Bridge and win.

U/x Landstill- If they ever play a Standstill, they just lose. You have Maze, Waste, Port, Ghost Quarter, and Manlands to interact under Standstill, while they usually just have Factory and Waste. Also, you should be able to make every land drop under Standstill, while they should stumble eventually. Their only real way to win is by riding a turn four Jace to victory unhindered.


Slightly Positive

U/W/x Stoneblade – Their primary win con of five Batterskull attacks is very bad against us, but their Jace plan is very good, and Vendilion Clique is irritating. Keep them off four mana at all costs, and if they do resolve Jace, tutor for Creeping Tar Pit and keep them off white mana at all costs. You can port them on your turn to take them off white as well if they have more sources than you do ports. Oblivion Stone out of the board is very good against them as often their converted mana costs vary too much to make Explosives reliable.

Goblins- This matchup is tricky because of their heavy basic manabase and incredible lategame. Tabernacle is the all-star for this matchup and the only reason it’s slightly positive, it’ll win you most of your games here.

Rock - this MU is extremely dependent on the Rock lists. Some resemble G/W/B Maverick more closely, and can be problematic, while others opt for no utility creatures and are very bad against Maze. Watch out for postboard Extirpate.


Coin Flip

Other Loam decks - Guess what? We actually get to race in this matchup! Aggro Loam is pretty tricky, it really comes down to who draws Waste-lock first.



Slightly Negative

G/W/x Maverick- They have Scavenging Ooze, Knight of the Reliquary, and Noble Hierarch, all of which are very good against us. If you’re concerned about this matchup and run Enlightened Tutor, a maindeck Cursed Totem turns this matchup into positive.

U/R Tempo- If you can resolve Zuran Orb before you die you’re often in good shape, however, that is no easy feat. The fewer Prices they run, the better the matchup is.

Show and Tell decks (Hive Mind / Sneak Show / etc)- Hive Mind is the worst of these for us while Sneak Show isn’t all that bad. Hive Mind can just chain a bunch of Pacts together which we can’t really interact with; however Sneak Show can’t beat a combination of Glacial Chasm, Karakas, and Ensnaring Bridge, and our mana denial on their double lands is very relevant. It’s winnable, but lands is the definite underdog.

Negative

Ancient Tomb decks (Meandeck MUD / Imperial Painter / etc)- These decks often have access to fast combo kills and blood moon, two things this deck is pretty bad against. Sometimes a wasteland with a port will get them though, you just need a good amount of luck.

TES / ANT / Other Storm Combo- ANT is the worst for us because of their heavy basic manabase, TES is a bit better because Waste and Port can steal games, and Doomsday is actually not too bad if you can get Zuran Orb with Wastelands as they are usually several colors and can’t generate massive storm counts because they lack Ad Nauseam. Postboard it gets better for us, although catch-all bounce like Rebuild is problematic.

Nic Fit- They have a heavy basic manabase, Scavenging Ooze, Thrun, and answers to Ensnaring Bridge. Don’t expect to win this one.

Very Negative

Burn- Your best hope is Glacial Chasm coupled with Zuran Orb. Take advantage of the fact that most Burn opponents are inexperienced and ask them if they can actually beat the Chasm. Often times they don’t realize that they can and you’re off to game 2. Against an experienced pilot, don’t expect to win too many.

High Tide- Unwinnable. You might be able to mess up their mana count by Porting their untapped islands in response to their high tide, but don’t expect it to make a difference. They even have sideboard Surgical Extraction to add insult to injury.


VIII. Tips and Tricks

-Often times, lategame Rishadan Ports shouldn’t be used to tap lands at upkeep when it doesn’t realistically matter, but left open in case some trick presents itself.
-If you have Life from the Loam in graveyard and Tranquil Thicket in hand and you suspect your opponent has Vendilion Clique in hand, don’t dredge if you want the Loam. Instead, wait until your main phase, cycle the thicket, and dredge for the draw. This way, you can cast the Loam before your opponent gets priority to clique it away.
- If you have Loam + Tolaria West and you’re not really doing anything, transmuting for Mox Diamond to speed you up is a fine option.
-Let your Tabernacle triggers resolve in your opponent’s upkeep before Porting them.
-Manabond triggers whether or not you want to put your hand into play; if you want to bait an opponent’s stifle, announce the Manabond trigger at cleanup. If they stifle it, it gets countered, and if it resolves you can choose not to put lands into play if you wish.
-You can Ghost Quarter your own land to search up a Forest if you need green; similarly, if you have a land in play that you wish to recur with Loam (Tolaria West, Tranquil Thicket, tapped Rishadan Ports) you can waste it to get it back before you cast Loam.
- You can put more mana into Engineered Explosives to increase its converted mana cost while on the stack. For example, if you want to play Explosives on two around a Spell Snare, you can pay UG1 to make its converted mana cost three while on the stack but still resolve with two sunburst counters. This is also useful for beating Counterbalance and playing around Chalice of the Void.
-The converted mana costs of Engineered Explosives and Chalices of the Void that are in play are always zero, despite the number of counters on them or their converted mana cost while they were on the stack.
-If you can avoid it, don’t activate your manlands into open white mana. If you can’t avoid it, at least try to have Ghost Quarter, Wasteland, or Zuran Orb in play in case they do try to Swords it.
-If your opponent is running taxing counters, they are very easy to play around by just waiting a turn or two.
-You can Maze your own attacking creatures. This is relevant with Mishra’s Factories and against opposing creatures with flash. If you have two attacking factories and a Maze of Ith against their one blocker, you can animate and attack with both, maze whichever one they block, and then use its pump ability to pump the unblocked one. If your opponent flashes in something and blocks a relevant creature such as a postboard Dark Confidant, you can simply Maze your creature before damage.

[Whit3 Ghost]

I remember playing against this on MWS. The deck is damn good from what I remember, and ran me the hell over in both games we played. I'll have to test it, but I definately like what I see. Congrats on the top8 and keep us posted!

EDIT- Actual Input
Why no sacred ground in the board?
And Solidaridy seems like it kills you pretty damn easily.

[Peter_Rotten]

Quick questions:

In a deck that runs so many lands and is looking to recur them, why not run a few Crucible?

Next, why not a Glacial Chasm? Recurring Chasms can stop aggro dead in its tracks

Last, what about Crop Rotation to function as search?

[Tao]

Quick questions:

In a deck that runs so many lands and is looking to recur them, why not run a few Crucible?

Next, why not a Glacial Chasm? Recurring Chasms can stop aggro dead in its tracks

Last, what about Crop Rotation to function as search?


- Crop Rotation: You want to keep the land count high and discard end of Turn 1 (or Turn 2 with Mulch) into Manabond. At this point you should have only Lands, Life from the Loam and Roar in your hand. An extremely high land count makes LftL dredges, Manabonds and Mulches better.

- Crucible: Same as Crop Rotation. Because Crucible has no synergy with Mulch, Life from the Loam Dredges and Manabond.

- Chasm: If you have your LftL against aggro you have really good Chances to win anyway. The worst thing against Aggro is their Instant Burn and Chasms doesn't help against that.

Edit:


Why no sacred ground in the board?
And Solidaridy seems like it kills you pretty damn easily.

LD is really no problem with 43 lands : )

Solidarity and Combo in general are really bad matchups. But Combo is much less popular here than in the USA because Gro and Deadguy are much more played here in Germany. Your only small chance in this matchup are fast beats combined with multiple Ports.

[Whit3 Ghost]

It wasn't in response to something like the LD of Pikula, it was more against Ruination/Geddon when playing against agro.

BTW, got any plans against Price of Progress?

EDIT- So, how's your friend doing?

[Di]

OMG OMG OMG

This deck is a copycat of a deck I ran in like 2003. No joke. This deck was the first deck I placed well in a tournament with, getting second place in a tournament only behind my friend Adam(tux) playing Counter-Squirrelcraft. TeenieBopper might actually remember this deck, because I played him in the top4 that tournament.

I don't remember the entire list anymore, and this was also made before Crucible and Fetchlands were printed, but I remember it revolving around Manabond/Exploration, Standstill was in there(great synergy with the lack of spells in the deck), and a lot of removal. This guy's got a few more lands than I did back then, as I actually remember running around 37-38 lands.

Unfortunately I really don't have much to offer except that short stint of nostalgia, but this deck in a few ways compares to Eternal Garden, so I'd possibly look at that for some ideas.

EDIT: I actually found a list I had for this deck off an age old website I made.

4 Treetop Village
4 Faerie Conclave
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Maze of Ith
4 Tropical Island
4 Savannah
3 Tundra
3 Reflecting Pool

2 Zuran Orb
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Powder Keg
2 Wrath of God
2 Skyshroud Blessing
4 Exploration
3 Manabond
4 Standstill

Fuckin 2003 tech right there.

[Bryant Cook]

This deck is a copycat of a deck I ran in like 2003. No joke.Note how you're still playing it in 2006...

[SuckerPunch]

Congrats. That deck looks incredible.

I'm also curious. What did the tournament have? Were there a lot of Deadguy decks (what Manuel Murr top 8ed with). Were there a lot of Zilla Stompys (Pascal Baatz's top 8 deck)?

[Moby Dick]

I have a question, sinse it's obvious you wont get mana screwed, are there any hands you have to mull?

And how do you SB.


EDIT: I thought this was amusing enough to be incuded:

VgWizard14 plays Savannah from Hand
<VgWizard14> End my turn
Moby Dick draws a card
Moby Dick plays Windswept Heath from Hand
Moby Dick taps Windswept Heath
Moby Dick puts Windswept Heath to Graveyard from Play
Moby Dick's life total is now 19 (-1)
Moby Dick is looking its Library...
Moby Dick puts Savannah into play from Library
Moby Dick shuffles library
Moby Dick stops looking its Library...
Moby Dick shuffles library
Moby Dick shuffles library
Moby Dick taps Savannah
VgWizard14 rearranges cards in VgWizard14's Hand
Moby Dick plays Manabond from Hand
<Moby Dick> End my turn
<VgWizard14> ..
Moby Dick plays Treetop Village from Hand
Moby Dick plays Slippery Karst from Hand
Moby Dick plays Nantuko Monastery from Hand
Moby Dick plays Mishra's Factory from Hand
Moby Dick puts Exploration to Graveyard from Hand
Moby Dick puts Exploration to Graveyard from Hand
<Moby Dick> End my turn
It is now turn 2 (VgWizard14)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
VgWizard14 untaps his/her permanents
VgWizard14 draws a card
VgWizard14 plays City of Brass from Hand
<VgWizard14> End my turn
Moby Dick untaps his/her permanents
Moby Dick draws a card
Moby Dick taps Slippery Karst
Moby Dick taps Nantuko Monastery
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
Moby Dick plays Mulch from Hand
<Moby Dick> Ok?
<VgWizard14> Ok
Moby Dick puts Mulch to Graveyard from Play
Moby Dick puts Windswept Heath into play from Library
Moby Dick puts Wasteland into play from Library
Moby Dick puts Life from the Loam into play from Library
Moby Dick puts Maze of Ith into play from Library
Moby Dick puts Life from the Loam to Graveyard from Play
<VgWizard14> -concede-
Moby Dick puts Maze of Ith to Hand from Play
Moby Dick puts Windswept Heath to Hand from Play
Moby Dick puts Wasteland to Hand from Play
Moby Dick plays Wasteland from Hand
<VgWizard14> I dont play gayness.
Moby Dick taps Wasteland
<System> Player Lost

[Shugyosha]

This deck is really strange I played the one and only Zilla Stompy yesterday, at least I haven't seen anyone else with it.

I lost to Saschas 43land 0-2 and to the other T8 Gobbo deck only. So I entered T8 via tiebreakers and faced Sascha again. This time I knew what awaited me and drew Burning-Tree Shamans against him (never saw one the first time I faced his deck).
So I locked him in the T8 playoffs with BTS and Pyrostatic Pillars (against LftL) and won 2-1. BTS and Pillars are really great against this deck. Price of Progress is absolute overkill and as good burn builds run 2-4 of them that can be casted before Ports-tapping the burn matchups should be nearly unwinnable with this list.

The meta yesterday was quite good for the 43land I guess. Not that many Threshold and Goblins as I expected but nothing the less alot of Beatdown/Aggro decks. Only some Solidarity and Landstill, many Affinity decks.
I played against two BW Confidant builds myself and against a rather strange B/gu Deck that was half T2 half Legacy that performed good in the Tourney (don't know why). So regarding the meta 43land was really a good choice I think.

I talked to Sascha a bit and he told me that he faced 3 Solidary! in rounds 1-3 (I played against him in the 4th round). Despite the bad luck regarding the pairings, he played against two (got a bye or something against one, don't remember). The other two fizzled or were surprised by Gaea's Blessing. I haven't seen the games but I think good Solidarity players definately can play around the Blessing and maybe expect it.


Besides: I lost against the Goblins of Andreas Müller again in the second round of the playoffs and went fourth place.

[Tao]

Gl&#252;ckwunsch zum 4ten Platz! Gegen Andreas M&#252;ller kann man schonmal verlieren, besonders wenn er die Swords maindecked.

To the Burn matchup: You will probably lose game 1 and in games 2 and 3 you have to mulligan aggressively into your Zuran Orb. If you get down an Orb you should win the game.

Zilla Stompy's Burning Tree-Shaman is a real problem but it doesn't see that much play. On the one hand this deck has some real problems with Solidarity, other Combo and a few cards like BTS and PoP but on the other hand you will have so many byes with this deck: Decks like Landstill, all of IBA's decks and many games where you have the nuts draw you will just win without your opponent doing much.

[Shugyosha]

I wonder if the inclusion of Glacial Chasm could somehow improve the matchups against BTS, Burn and decks alike. The problem is that it can only buy some time and you cannot attack. The inclusion of Nomad Stadium is another thing to consider.



Glückwunsch zum 4ten Platz! Gegen Andreas Müller kann man schonmal verlieren, besonders wenn er die Swords maindecked.

Danke!

[Lukas Preuss]

Okay, I watched some of his games, because it was pretty amazing. I think I was among the loudest people clapping for him when it was announced that he made T8.

But, he had some crazy luck and some retarded opponents during the Swiss rounds... Had he played real players, I doubt that he would have made T8. He won two (!) games against Solidarity during the Swiss rounds, which should be almost impossible for this deck. His opponents were just to fucking stupid to play around Gaea's Blessing... ("I don't have Stroke of Genius in the Sideboard, because it is too expensive", etc.).


Anyways, apart from that, this deck actually is pretty cool, it smashes randomness (which was the only defining factor at Germany's Legacy Nationals) and is awesome as hell (I mean... it's friggin 43 lands, come on!) . :)

One thing though... the Blessings should almost certainly be taken out of the SB, since they don't help against real Solidarity players and interfere with your LftL dredging.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

One thing though... the Blessings should almost certainly be taken out of the SB, since they don't help against real Solidarity players and interfere with your LftL dredging.

If you can win games because of Blessing + incompetent Solidarity players, why not keep them in the SB? Practicality wins over principles of what "should" work.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

If you can win games because of Blessing + incompetent Solidarity players, why not keep them in the SB? Practicality wins over principles of what "should" work.


Agreed... Yes it is true that a competent Solidarity player can work their way quite efficiently around Blessing, but so many people cannot. There are sooo many people out there who just pick up Solidarity and play it, with little knowledge or experience with the deck. If you lose game one and they see no Blessing, often times they will not expect Blessing in the second game. Lol, it even happened to me once. I was playing against MONO Red Burn and I smashed face game one and game two I was comboing off with the thought of just freezing him. (Mistake on my part) and after I froze him for his deck, he of course revealed Blessing, which was a complete slap across teh facez0rs. To sum things up, keep the Blessings in, because they will trip up soo many players it's not even funny.

[Whit3 Ghost]

After some testing(and 2-0ing Noobslayer with Solidarity) I have some more suggestions.
- Other spells that help you achieve Threshold, a la LFTL and Mulch.
- A black splash for Edicts and the Undead Gladiator Engine
- Maindeck Pyroclasm, I'm not sold on your goblins matchup.
- A big, jucy win condition(not Roar), something like "I'll cycle Decree for 1000 little soldiers"
- Crucible. It allows for savage Ring recursions
- Nomad Stadium, 4 life a turn is tech

[noobslayer]

Had any considered Horn of Greed? It seems to serve the same function as it did in turboland, well, not really. You aren't going infinite. But it may be something to consider.

[Warmonger]

Horn of Greed is much too slow and we don't need the advantage it provides.
Once it goes off, having 12 cards in hand isn't neccessary anymore.

Also, it takes a slot of a land, what makes Mulch & Manabond less useful. if i had to put something in there, it would be Needle / Humility / Disk / Any other card suitable for certain decks.

AFaIK, this deck has nothing to do against GrimLong, Draw4 and other insta combos. IMo Trinisphere / Chalice / Sphere or resistance could solve that problem, as we can place it very fast.

[Di]

AFaIK, this deck has nothing to do against GrimLong, Draw4 and other insta combos. IMo Trinisphere / Chalice / Sphere or resistance could solve that problem, as we can place it very fast.

Sphere of Resistance was one of the cards my list used towards the end of its run. It's absolutely insane in this deck. Same goes for Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void(albeit, a Chalice for 1 before a Manabond/Exploration is bad). I'd definately try to work them somewhere between the maindeck and sideboard.

Also, with so many land, Mox Diamond? It really couldn't hurt. Oh yea, and fucking Riftstone Portal. You run like 30 lands that don't add mana. Please add Riftstone Portal.

[Tao]

After some testing(and 2-0ing Noobslayer with Solidarity) I have some more suggestions.
- Other spells that help you achieve Threshold, a la LFTL and Mulch.
- A black splash for Edicts and the Undead Gladiator Engine
- Maindeck Pyroclasm, I'm not sold on your goblins matchup.
- A big, jucy win condition(not Roar), something like "I'll cycle Decree for 1000 little soldiers"
- Crucible. It allows for savage Ring recursions
- Nomad Stadium, 4 life a turn is tech

I cannot answer all questions perfect because as I said it is not "my" deck. I just tested a bit with it and had to keep it secret until Nationals (I really doubtet that it will place that well because of the Combo matcup). Therefore I don't have much more data than you, just a bit more experience.

- About what other spells did you think? The last version of the deck I knew played 4 Mulch, I was surprised that they've been reduced (I think another cycle land was added).
- Black splash is not easy because of the Manabase (yes it sounds weird), but it is interesting to Dredge a Gladiator
- MD Pyroclasm is a Meta decision
- things like Crucible and Decree don't interact with Manabond and Manabond is a fixed 4-off
- I suggested Nomad Stadium, too. I was told that Stadium is unnessecary. The reason was you still don't gain enough life to combat PoP and you don't need lifegain in other matchups. Furthermore the deck is really full and I wouldn't know what to replace

[QUOTE=WarmongerIMo Trinisphere / Chalice / Sphere or resistance could solve that problem, as we can place it very fast.[/QUOTE]

Trinisphere sounds like a good Sideboard option. The plan behind Blessing was to have a good draw, put the Solidarity player under pressure with Ports fast beatz and force him to go off into a Blessing he cannot handle.

[Warmonger]

Once I won the league playing Loam-Rift with 30+ lands and sideboard Trinisphere especially against Combo (improving matchup with Fish from 80 to 90 percent isn't neccessary).

[Meatwarz]

Hello.

I was just SOOO amazed by the deck, really something unusual and powerfull.

Well, can someone explain me how to SB (what in and out) in certain match-ups?

P.S.
It'd be great if the author of the deck'd have written an article about it *dream*

[Bane of the Living]

So...

Why no Crop Rotation again? Its an anti-wasteland, one mana, instant speed, tutor for 1 of 43 cards in the deck. Seriously now. It just seems better than Roar.

Is Swords to Plowshares ever a problem? You could play a single High Market and sac the targets to it. Then again thats why you run Zuran Orb right? Are they good enough maindeck?

[Warmonger]

I assure you that StP isn't a thing to worry about. Too many targets coming each turn :P.

Cropp is good, but, as I've said already, we have a great engine and hardly there is a reason to mess it up.
but peronally I use Crop in my own deck, which is way different.

[Lego]

I'm assuming I'm not the only person who has faced nothing but this for the past 48 hours on MWS. So annoying.

It seems like Crucible of Worlds could be a bomb here, and the number of games that Roar of the Wurm has been relevant basically only include the ones where he comes down turn 2. Seems to me that the Roars and maybe even a Life from the Loam could be switched out for a Crucible. I understand that this slightly reduces the effectiveness of Manabond, but has Crucible been tested at all? It seems amazing (not to mention much better with Geddon out of the board.)

[Warmonger]

Crucible does not work in this deck beacuse it's too slow and fragile, and not even needed. I've tested it... a long time ago, in various decks - I've been playing random land.dec for months.

Loam works way better with every single card we have, especially the:

-Cycle lands
-Roar (dredge it!)
-Monastery (threshold!)
-Ring (the same)

Is more effective against Pikula and other ponzing decks.
Is immune to counter / discard.

I have to write it again: You don't need to improve the engine!

Don't ever write like that again. ~ Nightmare

[Nightmare]

I don't think anyone is telling you to cut Life From the Loam. All they're saying is, this deck may benefit from the additional recursion of Crucible, which is effectively cheaper than LFtL after the fourth land you play. Whether they are right or not, we need more than "I tested it a long time ago and it sucked, it just isn't needed" to back up your statements.

[Warmonger]

Crucible is an overkill.

While playing this deck, our essential turns are the first and second ones. It's the time to block Lackey, doesn't let Pikula to screw our manabase, stop a random combo etc.
What are we doing first? Dropping Exploration or Manabond, which ALWAYS give us at least four lands on turn 2. Then, we have to manage this resources in order to stop attackers and gain some advantage, especially using the Loam and cycle lands.
We cannot drop Crucible on turn 2, as it makes us vulnerable to any random threat opponent might have.
On turns 3-5 we usually do the same, but casting the Loam / Mulch puts a mad loads of lands in our hand. Keep in mind that they are faster than Crucible and doesn't need any other conditions (eg. Fetch in the yard) to run. they are much more universal.

After some turn, we start to attack and kill with 10+ lands.
And there is a question: where or when did U need Crucible? It's just suboptimal in this build, as we can do all it's able to do fatser and more reliably.
Crucible is just another card vulnerable to Counter / Disruption and screws up Mulch.

The reason this deck loses isn't bacause we don't have enought lands. We don't have enought answers to combo decks and that is only acceptable reason to drop already reliable cards.

A bunch of solutions:

Chalice of The Void - fast, but might hurt us, espeically when x=2
Trinisphere - powerful, useful
Sphere of Resistance - fast, hard to deal with once it's dropped
Orrim's Chant - fastest of all, useful
Gilded Light - instant, cyclable

[Di]

No, Crucible is not overkill. Why? Because Meddling Mage > your face. Chalice of the Void > your face. What the hell do you do when you can't cast Life from the Loam? All you have is pray you see a Barbarian Ring.

I'm pretty sure the "disadvantage" Crucible has is outweighted by its advantage. You know, that advantage that single-handedly wins games.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Out of curiousity, is there anything you can do to Tsabo's Web besides weep and gnash your teeth?

[dre4m]

Out of curiousity, is there anything you can do to Tsabo's Web besides weep and gnash your teeth?

Yes: He can rely on the fact that it is a horrible card and will never see play.

Personally, I like Crucible in this deck, a lot, so you don't have to scoop to a Chalice at two. I guess you could keep getting Loam countered and hope to dredge into a Roar, but it seems a little spotty to me.

[quicksilver]

Yes: He can rely on the fact that it is a horrible card and will never see play.

What about blood moon, or back to basics?

And tsabo's web is not a horrible card. Perhaps if it didn't cantrip. But at only two mana and a cantrip, it is pretty nice.

[Warmonger]

You are right about the hate. I would play single forest and some naturalizes in the sideboard, which easily deal with these and other threats.

This is what I suggest:

4 Orrim's Chant - storm combo, probably every random combo
4 Sphere of Resistance - as above
3 Naturalize
4 Pithing Needle - Crypt and random combo decks, but this card is universal

About Meddling Mage - Fish is the best matchup I remember and this card is the only one that might hurt us.
AFAiK, it also plays in ********, but I rarely meet this deck and cannot say much more.

[Nightmare]

You are right about the hate. I would play single forest and some naturalizes in the sideboard, which easily deal with these and other threats.

AFAiK, it also plays in ********, but I rarely meet this deck and cannot say much more.Genius. Naturalize in the board as an answer to Chalice for 2. How about Oxidize, or even that stupid Convoke one that costs 3.

Threshold is the #1 deck in the format right now. I suggest NOT brushing it off as a "rarely seen" deck. Also, Moved to Developmental.

[Tao]

Out of curiousity, is there anything you can do to Tsabo's Web besides weep and gnash your teeth?

Lol. There is a funny story to it.

That actually happened on the first of the tourneys. He even played it maindeck in his Scepter Chant. That was when we didn't have Tabernacles so we played 2 Worship main instead and the opponent just let the Worship resolve with 2 Forces in hand. He totally forgot that our player could activate the Manlands with combat damage on stack and so the game was won because he decked himself :p

And yeah, if your opponent does not suck: of course this totally loses to Tsabos Web unless you boarded Disk. It is like Faerie Stompy against super secret tech Llawan, Cephalid Emperess.


EDIT: This belongs in a PM to a Mod. Specifically, me. I've PM'd you. ~ Nightmare

[Warmonger]

Genius. Naturalize in the board as an answer to Chalice for 2
I meant only Tsabo's Web, BtB, Blood Moon and lot of random artifacts & enchantment we would undoubtely meet.

Threshold is the #1 deck in the format right now. I suggest NOT brushing it off as a "rarely seen" deck
I'm not responsible for the whole Poland.
Didn't I say that I have NOT ENOUGHT knowledge about this deck? It's up to YOU what can be done with it - that's how the forum works, right?

[quicksilver]

I'm not responsible for the whole Poland.

I disagree. Since you are the only Polish person I know on here, then I will be holding you personally responsible for the Poland meta game.

[Morte]

What about Limited Resources?

Limited Resources
W, Enchantment

When Limited Resources comes into play, each player chooses five lands he or she controls and sacrifices the rest.
Players can't play lands if there are ten or more lands in play.


Opponent should not be able to play more than 2 or 3 lands before reaching a total of ten, and Wastelands and Ports complete the opera.

But the funniest thing is that Manabond seems working without any problem, because it says "put land cards into play", not just "play".

Manabond
G, Enchantment

At the end of your turn, you may reveal your hand and put all land cards from it into play. If you do, discard your hand.


Correct?
IN SB, this is much more evil than Armageddon, but maybe it's worth to play MD.

[wmagzoo7]

Yes Morte I think that this might just work as a soft lock against some decks and combined with wasteland and port it could shut your opponent out of the game for at least a few turns if not the entire game. I think that you just made a giant move for this deck if the card works as you think it does. If you can't play any lands anyway it still acts as a lock with rishadan ports in play.

[whienot]

It seems that Gigapede would be a reasonable win.

Gigapede 3GG

Gigapede can’t be the target of spells or abilities.
At the beginning of your upkeep, if Gigapede is in your graveyard, you may discard a card. If you do, return Gigapede to your hand.

6/1

He fits in perfectly with all the discard (Mulch, Manabond). He comes back and would speed up the clock significantly.

Just a thought.

[wmagzoo7]

The only problem I would see with gigapede though is that once the deck gets rolling(gets like 5 land) it doesn't need a quick win because it has man lands and at worst case it casts roar of the wurm. Also gigapede is just as fast as roar of the wurm and as long as you can kill them you are gonna win eventually. considerign that only ld will work against you.

[advisory6000]

Maybe a couple copys of rude awakening? Random thinking Mesmeric Orb and Battlefield Scrounger Zvi tech for you. I would love to see this deck become tier 1 who ever made it i tilt my hat to you..

[Poron]

my 2 cents:

where are
-crop rotation
-living wish?

both useless? just an idea..

[Eldariel]

Crop Rotation seems like a must to me. Glacial Chasm too. Don't pay upkeep, attack, Life it back. You're invulnerable that way. And Rotation simply lets you tutor for stuff, the deck has way too inconsistent draws, it relies on Maze of Ith to control the combat and on Rishadan Ports to disrupt. It really needs more than 4 of each. It's also very vulnerable to Needle, especially the Maze. I've had no problems whatsoever with it on MWS with FS since I just Needle Maze and fly over for the win.

[scrumdogg]

So...

Why no Crop Rotation again? Its an anti-wasteland, one mana, instant speed, tutor for 1 of 43 cards in the deck. Seriously now. It just seems better than Roar.

Is Swords to Plowshares ever a problem? You could play a single High Market and sac the targets to it. Then again thats why you run Zuran Orb right? Are they good enough maindeck?

If you're going to run an effect of that sort, run the original - Diamond Valley - and get full value out of your Factories & Monasteries. It also makes a case for Crop Rotation, as that allows you to get exactly the land you need, when you need it, making Chasm a viable silver bullet option. Why in the name of all that's unholy would you not run Riftstone Portal and turn all your lands into Savannah-plus? Neat idea, now you just need to find a way to not lose to combo....

[quicksilver]

now you just need to find a way to not lose to combo....

While you are doing that I will have already invented cold fussion, solved world hunger, and will have traveled faster than the speed of light.

[Tao]

While you are doing that I will have already invented cold fussion, solved world hunger, and will have traveled faster than the speed of light.

He played it again today, on a 102 man tourney (hey, our 1/2-yearly local tourney was the 2nd biggest Legacy tourney of all time in Germany after National Legacy Champs). Round 1 he has beaten 2-Land Belcher (!!!). Yes, 2-Land Belcher.
I don't know how he has done it. Later in the tourney he lost really close to the 2nd 2-land Belcher of the Tourney. Only a topdecked LED made it a 2-1 for Belcher (the first game won was: Land Exploration Factory go - Spoils for 18 go - Attack gg :D). Then one fast Combo and an evil topdecked LED before Disk was untapped. Another game was lost to SB Blood Moon Gobbos and he made a 5-2 finish.

To the suggestions:

- Riftstone Portal: Great suggestion. They will be added.

- Glacial Chasm: It could work, but it is really slow and it is absolutely dead without Loam.

Gigapede: Sounds really good, but unlike Roar you can't cast it turn 2 with a Manabond.

Crucible: It doesn't work in the deck. A Non-land card is to this deck like a Non-Goblin card to Gobbos. It weakens your engine.

Crop Rotation: Same as Crucible, maybe they can work with Chasm. It is nice that they can tutor a Tabernacle or Ring if you really need them. But each of these cards will weaken Manabond, Dredges and Mulch.

Special: Note the savage Synergy of Geddon - Tabernacle - go.

[Di]

Glacial Chasm: It could work, but it is really slow and it is absolutely dead without Loam.

This entire deck is dead without Loam. Just include the damn card and not make your aggro matchup so reliant on shitty lands like Maze of Ith.


Crucible: It doesn't work in the deck. A Non-land card is to this deck like a Non-Goblin card to Gobbos. It weakens your engine.

Would that also refer to Aether Vial or Umezawa's Jitte? I see this as the same thing in that retrospect. Honestly, your argument against it is terrible. Somehow Life from the Loam is enough to sustain the entire deck and everything is all good with just that. It's bullshit. Why not cut Explorations? They aren't lands!!! omg!!!. Sarcasm aside, this deck throws half of it into the graveyard, and you don't use the sole card to abuse that fucking graveyard. Weaken your engine? There's the possibility of milling it and not getting that 3 land Loam. If you don't have more than 3 lands in the graveyard anyway, something is off. I think for that slight drawback it's worth it to be able to play your entire deck from the yard.

I don't know where I'm going with this really, but basically if there isn't a justified argument against adding Crucible I will spam this thread until it is in a decklist. And I will hand out bannings.

[Artowis]

Have you considered Firestorm at all? It's great in the early game (go one mana!) and thrashes on Goblins something fierce.

[Bane of the Living]

What about Clear the Land?

Card type: Sorcery

Casting cost: 2G

Card text: Each player reveals the top five cards of his or her library, puts into play tapped all land cards revealed this way, and removes the rest from the game.

Maybe not since it helps opponents but it could be pretty bomb tastic.

Ill be playing my build with Cruicible. Dont worry Di.

[wmagzoo7]

I dunno about Clear the Land because it can accelerate your opponent as well and my opinion on chasm is that if you have life it would be good but if you don't draw into it you won't be in good shape which is where crop rotation shines because chasm could be a 1 of just as barbarian ring and tabernacle can be tutored up.

[Tao]

Clear the Land removes LftL, Roars and gives your opponent the chance to compensate the Port / Wasteland disruption. Therefore Mulch is almost strictly better.

The danger of playing Crucible and Crop Rotation is that it can destroy your game plan. If your starthand is something like 4 Lands, Mana Bond, Crop Rotation and Crucible you will definetely have a problem.

[herbig]

This deck looks pretty awesome. I think Crucible should definately be considered as a two-of, no more than that, but maybe everyone else should test more since you have more experience with the deck. Ray of Revalation for the sideboard, with the Portals, would help against stuff like Blood Moon without having to topdeck into removal. The funny thing I noticed about the Solidarity matchup would be that you would side in 2 Blessings, 3 geddons, and 1 Orb for 4 Maze and 2 Tabernacle, since Orb helps you hit Threshold faster.

[Helfi]

Are there any reasons why Burgeoning isn't played in this Deck?
Or give Exploration and Manabond enough speed?

[Cavius The Great]

Does anyone have any thoughts on Nether Void? It would significantly improve the combo matchup and should atleast deserve a SB slot if you decide to splash black for it.

[syssc9]

@Eldariel - Don't think the Glacial Chasm upkeep works that way - you don't have the option not to pay. Unless I am mistaken you MUST pay, unless you have a way to get rid of it (Zuran Orb, Crop Rotation, etc.)

@ The Rest of You - I have been working on a deck that is somewhat similar to this one, but only somewhat. It contains most of the cards y'all are harping on: Crop Rotation, Z-Orb, Crucible, etc. This is a completely different deck with completely diff set of goals that plays out completely differently. (Completely!) I have also been trying to take the best of my build and this build and make them work together and it is a no-go. Believe me. They don't mix well at all. Them main problem is that Mulch and Manabond tend to throw all these other cards in the graveyard, where they are inaccessible. Even running Regrowth-like cards does not help because unless they wind up in the yard too!

If anyone would like to see my build here I can post it, but I will not spam this thread unless requested. In the mean time, try testing the deck as is - it's a good one! I have managed to get several good ideas for my different build here and am grateful for that.

[quicksilver]

@Eldariel - Don't think the Glacial Chasm upkeep works that way - you don't have the option not to pay. Unless I am mistaken you MUST pay, unless you have a way to get rid of it (Zuran Orb, Crop Rotation, etc.)

w00t, another chance for me to quote the Comprehensive rule book.


502.13a Cumulative upkeep is a triggered ability that imposes an increasing cost on a permanent. “Cumulative upkeep [cost]” means “At the beginning of your upkeep, put an age counter on this permanent, then sacrifice this permanent unless you pay [cost] for each age counter on it.” If [cost] has choices associated with it, each choice is made separately for each age counter, then either the entire set of costs is paid, or none of them is paid. Partial payments aren’t allowed.

So culmitive upkeep allows you to choose not to pay the upkeep cost, and if you don't you sacrifice the card.

So you can sacrifice the Glacial Chasm every turn and then replay it (with Loam or crucible) without ever having to pay life. If you have out exploration
then you can do it every turn indefinatly without ever losing life.

Edit: Also I belive there is nothing in the game that ever forces you to tap lands for mana and pay a cost of some type (ok mindslaver makes you do stuff like that against your will but it is your opponent making those desicions, not the game). There are cards that may impose a stiff penalty (such as in the eye of chaos countering your spell if you don't pay, or trinisphere that simply won't allow you to play the spell if you don't pay), but there is nothing in the game I believe that forces you to tap your lands for mana if you don't want to. More broadly there is nothing in the game that can force you to play an activated ability or to play a spell if you don't want to. The game rules have no way of checking how much potential mana you can produce, and thus couldn't force you to pay for something cause the game rules don't know if you can or not.

[syssc9]

@ quicksilver - thanks for the clarification. I guess I must be keying on the idea that some cards give you the option of doing or not doing something by use of the word "may." Seems that does not apply in cases like this one. Makes the use of the Chasm much easier. Again - thanks.

The rest of my post still holds - Trying to a mix a whole bunch of non-land cards into Tao's build just does not seem to work well, as these "other" cards wind up in the yard more often than not, due to the action of Manabond and Mulch.

[scutakicker]

Edit: Also I belive there is nothing in the game that ever forces you to tap lands for mana and pay a cost of some type. There are cards that may impose a stiff penalty, but there is nothing in the game I believe that forces you to tap your lands for mana if you don't want to.

Power Sink
Oracle text: Counter target spell unless its controller pays X. If he or she doesn’t, that player taps all lands he or she controls and empties his or her mana pool.
:tongue:
-----

It seems like this deck is just begging for a nice set of e tutors/crop rotations to fetch out all the singletons
Lands-
Tabernacle
Glacial Chasm
Maze of Ith
the whole freaking deck

Enchantments/Artifacts
Crucible (one more reason to run at least one of these)
Exploration
Zuran Orb
Limited Resources
a range of sideboard cards like Trinisphere, Rule of Law, Ghostly Prison, Worship etc

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

I think this is a very interesting deck. Is anyone planning on running it at The Mana Leak Open?? :eek:

[blitz]

Power Sink
Oracle text: Counter target spell unless its controller pays X. If he or she doesn’t, that player taps all lands he or she controls and empties his or her mana pool.
:tongue:
-----

It seems like this deck is just begging for a nice set of e tutors/crop rotations to fetch out all the singletons
Lands-
Tabernacle
Glacial Chasm
Maze of Ith
the whole freaking deck

Enchantments/Artifacts
Crucible (one more reason to run at least one of these)
Exploration
Zuran Orb
Limited Resources
a range of sideboard cards like Trinisphere, Rule of Law, Ghostly Prison, Worship etc

hmmmm... too many cooks spoil the broth, im thinking.

[syssc9]

hmmmm... too many cooks spoil the broth, im thinking.

Exactly! Tao has said repeatedly that these cards simply do not work in his build. After much goldfishing, I completely agree. I have a build that incorporates all the cards everyone is mentioning (as I said earlier) including:

4 Crop Rotation
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Zuran Orb
4 Crucible of Worlds
(All of which could be reduced to 3, probably, with no adverse affect)

And my own personal tech:

4 Compulsive research
1 Cephalid Coliseum

- which works quite well with the Crucible.

In order to fit these in, I am only running 26 lands and no Loam, Manabond or Mulch. Very different deck. My kill is usually via Hurricane or Shivan Gorge. This version was meant for my greatest love - Casual Multiplayer.

The above cards turn this into a completely different deck. Completely.

[Bane of the Living]

Exactly! Tao has said repeatedly that these cards simply do not work in his build. After much goldfishing, I completely agree. I have a build that incorporates all the cards everyone is mentioning (as I said earlier) including:

4 Crop Rotation
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Zuran Orb
4 Crucible of Worlds
(All of which could be reduced to 3, probably, with no adverse affect)

And my own personal tech:

4 Compulsive research
1 Cephalid Coliseum

- which works quite well with the Crucible.

In order to fit these in, I am only running 26 lands and no Loam, Manabond or Mulch. Very different deck. My kill is usually via Hurricane or Shivan Gorge. This version was meant for my greatest love - Casual Multiplayer.

The above cards turn this into a completely different deck. Completely.

So lets stay on topic. I dont think changes need to be made to make the deck more consistant, it just needs changes to shore up its combo matchup. Have you tried maindeck Trinispheres yet?

[Mad Bomber]

Ok so i know some people are saying that the deck doesn't play well with:

crop rotation
Crucible
Ect..Ect...

But the truth of the matter is the deck plays just fine with these. As long as you keep it to just these. You can remove Mulch...yesss i know it usually says draw 4 cards. But the deck plays just fine without them. Also roar of the wurm is simple an extremely week card most of the time. I mean sure if you get the nuts draw and play it on turn 2 its pretty strong...but then again it still not that amazing and its horrible in the mirror.

Basically i'll just post my list that i've been playing with. It shows to be pretty strong against most of the field. Then i'll post reasoning behind certain cards.

4 Rishidan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
3 Savannah
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Nantuko Monastery
3 Treetop Village
2 Barbarian Ring
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Secluded Step
1 Forgotten Cave
1 Slippery Karst
3 Maze of Ith
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Glacial Chasm

4 Manabond
4 Exploration
4 Life from the Loam
3 Crop Rotation
2 Crucible of Worlds

SB:
4 Armageddon
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Cop: Red
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Rule of Law
1 City of Solitude
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Pithing Needle

Ok so the lands are pretty basic...the only thing i've changed there was:
-1 Maze -1 Slippery Karst....+1 Riftstone +1 Glacial Chasm

The deck can easily support the downside to chasm each turn and if need be you can always just pay the life for a few turns if you absolutely had to...but thats assuming u don't have crucible OR LftL active

I think the Riftstone Portal speaks for itself...makes maze..glacial..tabernacle..wastlelands ect ect all Savannahs as well

Crucible:
This card is well ridiculous on its own in control decks w/ wasteland so why isn't it a part of a deck that REVOLVES around Lands...because you have LftL right...well thats a 4 of in a 60 card deck...this allows you 2 more options that Aren't as mana intesive. But the kicker here is that you don't auto lose to turn one chalice for 1!!!...i've won 3 or 4 games now were i kept crucible in the opening and got chaliced for 1 before i could lay a land. Its just another amazing option for the deck...combos amazing w/ glacial/exploration too!

Crop Rotation:
This card is still another amazing card for the deck...i mean its a one mana instant tutor for nearly the entire deck...good for combat tricks...tutor in the monastary or factory...or maze..or glacial...i mean its pretty ridiculous...kinda like playing w/ 5 tabernacles as well :)

The sideboard is basically my attempt at having a chance against combo. granted u normally just get rolled, but this makes them work a little harder atleast haha.

As a metagame decision i would run blessing in the board because i know the solidarity players are weak...with the exception of one guy....but lets see here:

Armageddon:
staple against control and actually pretty strong against solidarity in testing when it resolves.

Enlightened Tutor:
Searches for a turn 2 manabond/exploration...or anit combo piece.

Cop Red:
Very Obvious...and pretty ridiculous...better than zuran orb thanks to price of progress

Seal of Cleansing:
This comes in against Scepter and Back to Basics

Tormod's Crypt:
Very good against Iggy Pop and other fun stuff

Chalice of Void:
Chalice for 1 is pretty strong against High Tide and even chalice at 0 slows down iggy pop a little

Pithing Needle:
this is another card that neads no explanation

Rule of Law:
Great against combo

City of Solidarity:
Good against high tide but rather weak against others...probably going to get cut for an extra seal of cleansing

Other sideboard options are running a full supply of Orim's Chants


Anyway thats just a little food for thought on the deck. I've been testing it over and over and it seems to run really well.

[Afro]

@ Mad Bomber : I like your list. This deck definitly needs Crucible and Crop. I believe while slower than Mulch, you do not auto lose to Chalice at 2. This becomes important because now more than ever are we seeing Chalice in boards to deal with thresh and combo.

My one suggestion would be to cut some Taiga or switch the numbers with Savannah since with your sideboard no longer packing pyro, the only use for red becomes the single cycle land and your 2 rings.

[syssc9]

@ Mad Bomber - This list is a nice improvement due to the elimination of Mulch. However Manabond still poses a similar problem. I suppose you could wait to use it till you had nothing in your hand but lands to avoid dumping other cards you need (Crucible, etc.!) This seems a bit contrived at first glance. How is it working out for you in testing?

Hey Tao - whadaya think of the current changes?

[Mad Bomber]

@ Mad Bomber : I like your list. This deck definitly needs Crucible and Crop. I believe while slower than Mulch, you do not auto lose to Chalice at 2. This becomes important because now more than ever are we seeing Chalice in boards to deal with thresh and combo.

My one suggestion would be to cut some Taiga or switch the numbers with Savannah since with your sideboard no longer packing pyro, the only use for red becomes the single cycle land and your 2 rings.

Very well put...i guess i was working so hard on tuning the bigger stuff i forgot that simple detail haha....so -1 Taiga +1 Savannah

@syssc9
Yes if you draw Manabond and Crucible..you turn one the Manabond and don't dump your hand...it is a MAY effect...cast Crucible and then dump away

[VaBeachScrub]

@syssc9
Yes if you draw Manabond and Crucible..you turn one the Manabond and don't dump your hand...it is a MAY effect...cast Crucible and then dump away

I created an account just to point out to you how much more completely awesome that hand is w/ mulch instead of crucible.

[Mad Bomber]

I created an account just to point out to you how much more completely awesome that hand is w/ mulch instead of crucible.

Mulch would be great there...unless they chalice at one or force your manabond...now mulch isn't so great.

The thing with mulch is that its ONLY good if you have an exploration or manabond already on the board...otherwise its less than amazing.

Adding Crucible only makes the deck stronger in my opinion. I should be playing this deck this sunday. I'll leave feedback on the crop rotation/crucible version for those who are interested

[VaBeachScrub]

The thing with mulch is that its ONLY good if you have an exploration or manabond already on the board...otherwise its less than amazing.


If you don't have an exploration or manabond then the deck isn't doing much of anything. Even then I'd still rather have the mulch, which will put good cards in your hand and dig for life from the loam. Crucible isn't even an option until the next turn and even then its synergy is subpar. Play cycle lands out of your graveyard? Pass.

[Mad Bomber]

Crucible isn't even an option until the next turn and even then its synergy is subpar. Play cycle lands out of your graveyard? Pass.

Yea but i here its pretty good with wasteland in the current legacy enviroment.

On a side note...i am testing a new sideboard card over Armageddon.

Obliterate is pretty much an auto win card against any landstill type deck. Being that your deck doesn't have much for action spells they usually have a hand full of counters late game for you Geddon...but the uncounterable effect of Obliterate is quite nice...and the fact that your manabond/exploration lives through it..well its an auto win should it resolve really.

[Peter_Rotten]

Hmm. On a touch of whimsy, I remembered Recoup (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=3599). That card gets pretty silly with Mulch. Flashing Back Mulch doesn't seem right, now does it? Plus, Recoup has the added bonus of giving Flashback to Roar of the Wurm. :wink:

[Franz Ferdinand]

Well, Godzilla closed the topic I made, so I'll repost this with some changes I made:

This is my list:

// Lands
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [DK] Maze of Ith
2 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
2 [OD] Barbarian Ring
1 [ON] Forgotten Cave
4 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [R] Taiga
4 [UL] Treetop Village
1 [ON] Barren Moor
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
1 [MM] Dust Bowl

// Spells
4 [EX] Manabond
3 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [US] Exploration
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
3 [JU] Burning Wish
2 [RAV] Darkblast

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 1 [CHK] Cranial Extraction
SB: 1 [OD] Haunting Echoes
SB: 3 [SC] Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 1 [7E] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [PS] Hull Breach
SB: 1 [TO] Devastating Dreams
[B]SB: 1 [TO] Chainer's Edict
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void

I made a few major changes to the deck.

--Adding black: I really didn't think white added much to the deck. Monastery isn't that necessary, and through testing, I rarely found myself wanting to play Geddon. Black adds Darkblast, which is really helpful against aggro, including Goblins. It also allows me to SB Duress, which is my sideboard option against combo decks.

--The Wishboard. Other than Clasm, Sascha's sideboard seems godawful to me. Gaea's Blessing is not a sufficient answer to Solidarity. I'd rather not sit back and let them sodomize me, hoping they can't answer it. Plus, it's much more narrow than Duress and Pyrostatic Pillar (both of which also answer Iggy Pop and Salvagers Game).

--Removing Roar of the Wurm and Mulch/Less win conditions: This deck, at least the way I play it, is very good at slowrolling. Recurring Wastes/Ports let you slow your opponent down. With that, I find that I don't need a large amount of win conditions. Factory and Village are fine, and recurring Barb Rings can deal the last few. As for removing Mulch, more often than not it was a dead card in my hand, and when I played it, it did little more than be a pseudo-Loam. I'd rather have Wish, which can get a REAL Loam.

New card choices:

Crucible of Worlds: Acts as Loam 4-5. It's just as good for recurring your lands. It also doesn't need you to keep paying mana (though it's more vulnerable).

Burning Wish: See "Wishboard" above. Also functions as Loams 6-8.

Darkblast: This card is really, really good. It is a wonderful answer to turn 1 Lackey or any other X/1s, as well as being a nice combat trick with your manlands. Plus, it can help you Dredge into Loam a lot faster than trying to draw it.

Dust Bowl: This is a bit of a testing spot. Dust Bowl rips apart any deck that fails to play basics.

Wishboard: I think most of it is self-explanatory. I didn't put anything particularly revolutionary there.

Matchups:

Sadly, I have only been able to test on mwsplay.net. I think people who play here know how godawful most people on there can be. So take these with a grain of salt.

Goblins: My version seems to do a lot better against Goblins than the original. Darkblast is an MVP. So is Tabernacle. Keep them locked up with Tabernacle and Mazes, or find a Wish-->Pyroclasm. As long as you can survive the initial onslaught and take it into the lategame, you can take advantage then. Until then, Tabernacle is the best answer to creature rushes. Also, remember that you can play Darkblast during your upkeep, dredge it back, and play it again to kill a 2/2.

Sideboarding: Nothing. Game 2/3 they might board in Tormod's Crypt if they have it. All I can say is play carefully--I have yet to put in an answer to it.

Thresh: A++ matchup. Mazes can stall Werebears and Enforcers/Dragons, and Mongoose is generally not big enough to make it past Villages or blocking Factories. Lock their mana sources down with Wasteland and Port. Tabernacle is also fun after this to add insult to injury. The fact that they cannot counter most of your business cards (including Loam, usually) is a benefit to you.

Sideboarding: -2 Darkblast +2 Duress. Darkblast isn't going to help you much. Might as well replace it with Duress, which can knock out a Daze or STP.

Solidarity/Other combo: Awful matchup game 1. I can't imagine winning these matchups game 1 unless you get blessed with a lot of Ports in the beginning of the game, and even then, not sure. Wasteland can also do damage against non-High Tide combo decks. Still, do not expect to win game 1.

Sideboarding: -4 Maze of Ith -2 Tabernacle -1 Darkblast +4 Duress +3 Pyrostatic Pillar. This is still a painful matchup, but at least you have answers. Remember, if you can accelerate hard enough, you can Wish into Cranial or Tsunami.


Other cards considered:

-Riftstone Portal: Even without white in the deck anymore, this lets every land you have make green mana...including Maze of Ith and Tabernacle (and Factory, et al.).

-Perish/Deathmark: I considered this, as both of these are powerful, but I'm not sure what exactly it helps against.

-Some sort of spot removal (Wishboard): I've noticed I pretty much lack this in general. Chainer's Edict springs to mind.

-Chalice of the Void/3sphere - I tried playing 3sphere in the maindeck before, but it was often just a dead card. I'm not sure if either of these has too much merit in the SB.

-Urza's Factory: An additional win condition, and it's much more resilient than manlands. Maybe as a 1-of.


NEW Stuff:

I only changed around the sideboard. DDreams was added back in because I have found that I want it more often than I want Massacre, which is probably unnecessary since white aggro seems like a good matchup.

Rude Awakening seems like a great card to end the occasional manland stalemates. However, it might end up just becoming the 4th Duress it replaced. *EDIT* Not anymore. This thing has gotten me a bunch of wins by doing ~20 in one swing.

Glacial Chasm was suggested by a bunch of people as another answer to Goblins. One copy is enough--I have enough dredge to find it. *EDIT* Taken out. It didn't serve much of a purpose.


I think the changes I have made significantly benefit the deck as a whole.

NEW STUFF (9/25):

-Chainer's Edict: Recommended to me by an Sourcer on MWSPlay, it serves the spot removal I mentioned before. I felt I could drop RA safely.

-Shattering Spree: Mostly to deal with Chalice for 1, which restricts your manaboosters.

-Leyline of the Void: With this, I've decided to give up on the Solidarity matchup. This improves the other combo matchups severely, and helps also versus random things. This is also why I dropped Tsunami.

[Tao]

Sascha played it again in our small tourney on Friday. He went 4-0. It is amazing to see what this deck usually does to Goblins and to see someone play it who can play it really good.

He changed the MD only a little bit but played a completely different SB.

The changes he suggested for the MD were iIrc:

- 2 Roar
- 1 Land
+ 2 Riftone Portal
+ 1 Mulch

The Riftstone Portals suggested by Diablos are extremely powerful. Dead Fetchlands and especially Maze and Tabernacle can be used for Mana with it and you are not too light on green Mana when you cycle Tranquil Thicket and play Loam with it.

The SB was something very close to Mad Bombers suggestions:

4 Enlightened Tutor
2 Armageddon
1 Rule of Law
1 CoP: Red
1 Zuran Orb
1 Nevi Disk
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Pithing Needle
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Ray of Revelation

With Time Spiral Ancient Grudge will be added to the sideboard.

[Weekend Daddy]

Has anyone considered using Vesuva? As a way to having a 5th Wasteland, -Port, Barb Ring, or Man Land.

Or does it's 'come into play tapped' make it considerably slow and undesirable?

[Weekend Daddy]

just looking over some of the Future Sight lands. Here's one that caught my eye:

Horizon Canopy
[Rare]
Land

[T] add [W] or [G], take 1 damage

1 [T] Sacrifice Horizon Canopy, draw 1 card

Could this replace some of the cycle lands?

PROS:
-Doesn't come into play tapped
-Provides for 2 types of mana
-Cycling Esque ability

CONS:
-costs 1 life to utilize mana
-to use it's cantrip ability, it will cost you your land drop (assuming Exploration or Manabond aren't advailable).

Does anyone else have the problem of their cycle Lands being potential 'dead-in-hand' cards or no?


The R/G land isn't nearly as amazing, no cantrip, but tapping for R/G nets the opponent 1 life. However it taps for colorless with no penalty.

[Weekend Daddy]

I am intending to run 43 lands next week at a tournament, as I can't do anything good with Solidarity. This is also assuming the Manabonds and Taigas come in this week (which is strange because EVERYTHING on Ebay was bought at the same time and came in last week)

SPELLS: 17
4 Burning Wish
4 Exploration
4 Manabond
3 Life From The Loam
2 Mulch

LANDS: 43
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Maze Of Ith
3 Nantuko Monestary
3 Savannah
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Treetop Village
2 Barbarian Ring
2 Tabernacle At The Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Slippery Karst

SIDEBOARD: 15
4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Leyline Of The Void
3 Zuran Orb
1 Demonfire
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Life From The Loam
1 Wildfire

The sideboard looks a bit bizarre but I'm experimenting with a few things, such as Chalice for Solidarity (yes, it's a piss poor attempt, but I believe it's the only good counter against it as Gaeas Blessing WON'T WORK....at least here, as me and one other guy run Solidarity and we both know how to run circles around it) and maybe other combo, and Leyline in case of Hulk Flash and Reanimator. I know theres a couple reanimator decks that run about

Yes, I KNOW Leyline HURTS this deck as far as the LOAM engine goes, but Hulk Flash and Reanimator REALLY NEED their graveyards a LITTLE MORE than I do. If I side out the Manabonds and Loams (adding Leylines and some Chalice) and leave in the Explorations, I believe the deck should still work properly AND faster than the opponent with the graveyard disruption intact

Plus, with Leyine out, I can keep Wishing for Demonfires straight to the dome.

Any suggestions before I attempt this thing? Anyone have any sideboard suggestion against some of the top tier decks (Goblins, Landstill, 9 lands stompy....whatever you have had experience with)

[Jaynel]

Your own Leyline doesn't effect your yard.

[outsideangel]

I am intending to run 43 lands next week at a tournament, as I can't do anything good with Solidarity. This is also assuming the Manabonds and Taigas come in this week (which is strange because EVERYTHING on Ebay was bought at the same time and came in last week)

SPELLS: 17
4 Burning Wish
4 Exploration
4 Manabond
3 Life From The Loam
2 Mulch

LANDS: 43
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Maze Of Ith
3 Nantuko Monestary
3 Savannah
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Treetop Village
2 Barbarian Ring
2 Tabernacle At The Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Slippery Karst

SIDEBOARD: 15
4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Leyline Of The Void
3 Zuran Orb
1 Demonfire
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Life From The Loam
1 Wildfire

The sideboard looks a bit bizarre but I'm experimenting with a few things, such as Chalice for Solidarity (yes, it's a piss poor attempt, but I believe it's the only good counter against it as Gaeas Blessing WON'T WORK....at least here, as me and one other guy run Solidarity and we both know how to run circles around it) and maybe other combo, and Leyline in case of Hulk Flash and Reanimator. I know theres a couple reanimator decks that run about

Yes, I KNOW Leyline HURTS this deck as far as the LOAM engine goes, but Hulk Flash and Reanimator REALLY NEED their graveyards a LITTLE MORE than I do. If I side out the Manabonds and Loams (adding Leylines and some Chalice) and leave in the Explorations, I believe the deck should still work properly AND faster than the opponent with the graveyard disruption intact

Plus, with Leyine out, I can keep Wishing for Demonfires straight to the dome.

Any suggestions before I attempt this thing? Anyone have any sideboard suggestion against some of the top tier decks (Goblins, Landstill, 9 lands stompy....whatever you have had experience with)


Now is a really bad time to play this deck. Really, really bad time.

You can do absolutely nothing to Hulk Flash pre-board except Wasteland. You can board in Leyline, but they pack bounce, and it's not like they won't have a million and a half turns to find it.

43 lands has always had problems with combo, and when combo is the best deck in the format, 43 lands is a poor choice.

[noobslayer]

I've recently begun to think this deck could benefit against combo (mostly Solidarity) and control decks by using a set of Devastating Dreams in the board. The suggestion could be way out there. I also think a full set of Cabal Therapies should be in the board for the builds using black. I'd actually like to see someones take on a four color build of this deck.

[Weekend Daddy]

I've recently begun to think this deck could benefit against combo (mostly Solidarity) and control decks by using a set of Devastating Dreams in the board. The suggestion could be way out there. I also think a full set of Cabal Therapies should be in the board for the builds using black. I'd actually like to see someones take on a four color build of this deck.

I believe you are right about the addition of Therapy. The best way to do it is drop all the red spells and lands. This would disable a bit of the utility and search that red offers, but add black aggro into it. I would work something like this: (I'm only going to use the 43 deck primer because I LOVE the Batman utility-belt aspect of it....plus, i'm not too fond of using multiple colors).



SPELLS: 20
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Exploration
4 Manabond
4 Life From The Loam

LANDS: 40
4 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Maze Of Ith
3 Mishras Factory
3 Nantuko Monestary
3 Savannah
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Treetop Village
2 Cabal Pit
1 Tabernacle At The Pendrell Vale
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Slippery Karst

[Guy I Don't Know]

Anyone have a board that beats belcher yet?

[Weekend Daddy]

4 Oxidize could work. You'd have to aggressively mulligan for one, like you would Zuran Orbs for a burn deck.

[noobslayer]

If you are playing red, you can add Ancient Grudge.

[Guy I Don't Know]

How does artifact removal beat belcher... they activate the belcher in response and kill you most likely

[Tacosnape]

How does artifact removal beat belcher... they activate the belcher in response and kill you most likely

They aren't always capable of dropping the belcher and activating it on the same turn.

[noobslayer]

With instant speed removal you can always shoot a Lion's-Diamond when they put the next spell on the stack. This works if like, they needed to set up for an infernal tutor or burning wish.

[Brutha]

In the black version I would play a single copy of Nether Spirit. It can also be "played" via Manabond and it has a high synergy with therapy.

[Weekend Daddy]

I won't be able to test my Laom deck this week :(

I'm trying out Gamble instead of Mulch alongside Burning Wish. It's working retardedly well. I did about 10 tests and about 7 of the 10 games got the Manabond/Exploration with Loam in hand/graveyard by turn 1/2.
Mulch just came off as a 'win better' card that contributed to the combo ONLY when you have the combo going. Unless anyone can convince me otherwise. I'm going to gear mine more towards stronger combo execution.

Gamble is the NUTS topdeck right after a Manabond.

I'll give it some more test runs tomorrow. Still iffy on the maindeck Vesuva as I drew it 2 times in 10 games. As much as I LOVE more Ports and making it a 4th Treetop Village (both come into play tapped, so who cares). It's not bad, but I'm not too terribly impressed with it either. I think it's going to be one of those 'it NEEDS to be field tested against people that are not me'. So as of right now, it stays until proven crappy.
I'm at the conclusion that 4 Fetchlands are SUPER EXCESSIVE. When you get the Loam going off the chain, you end up picking it up one in the graveyard at least 2 more times just to get the bang for your buck and actually draw 3 lands.
I have NEVER played a deck where I DON'T REALLY want to be drawing fetchlands.

Also need to do tests with Horizon Canopy because Slippery Karst is plain garbage to me. Seriously, I draw it and wonder 'WTF IS THIS HERE FOR?!'. Amazingly, that 2 colorless to pay for it's cycling REALLY hurts. The deck seems like you need as much utility open as you get it. With Riftstone Portal and several ways of pulling (G), it's useless.
I'm going to try 2 Tranquil Thicket and 2 Horizon Canopy. I think Canopy can make Loam run a little more fluid.

[dahcmai]

I had taken out the Slippery Karsts because I couldn't see the point in it either. Then a random kid played a Blood Moon on me. You quickly realize you can't win maindecked, so you board in something like Ray of Revelation like I did. When he played it again, I was waiting and Rayed it away. Then he plays another right after it. I realize I can't search for a Nevy's Disc without green for the Thickets. Ray is turned off so I had to have disc and got screwed. The two colorless sucks until you get in situations like that.

[Weekend Daddy]

I had taken out the Slippery Karsts because I couldn't see the point in it either. Then a random kid played a Blood Moon on me. You quickly realize you can't win maindecked, so you board in something like Ray of Revelation like I did. When he played it again, I was waiting and Rayed it away. Then he plays another right after it. I realize I can't search for a Nevy's Disc without green for the Thickets. Ray is turned off so I had to have disc and got screwed. The two colorless sucks until you get in situations like that.

True, but with Burning Wish, you can side in Demonfire in case of Blood Moon. I was considering Landslide, but Hellbent w/ uncounterability and unavoidable = the nuts.

[Guy I Don't Know]

WHO PLAYS BLOOD MOON?

and if they are dont playa deck with all nonbasics !

[Weekend Daddy]

WHO PLAYS BLOOD MOON?

and if they are dont playa deck with all nonbasics !

I've seen blood moon played. There are those who are actually deathly afraid of Loam.

That's when you lay out Landslide. If all you have is mountains, send them right to their dome.

[Choobak]

hello,

I would like to give a french version of 43lands :

- 2 Exploration
- 4 Manabond
- 2 Recoup
- 4 Gamble
- 3 Burning wish
- 3 Life from the loam

- 1 forgoten cave (Terrain)
- 2 barbarians ring (Terrain)
- 2 Wooded Foothills (Terrain)
- 3 Tranquil Thicket (Terrain)
- 2 Windswept Heath (Terrain)
- 4 Maze of Ith (Terrain)
- 3 Nantuko Monastry (Terrain)
- 4 Rishadan Port (Terrain)
- 1 Glacial chasm (Terrain)
- 3 Savannah (Terrain)
- 1 Secluded steppe (Terrain)
- 4 Taïga (Terrain)
- 4 wasteland (Terrain)
- 4 Mishra's factory (Terrain)
- 2 Treetop village (Terrain)
- 2 The Tabernacle At Pendrell Vale (Terrain légendaire)

sideboad :

- 4 Chalice of the void (Artefact)
- 1 Zuran Orb (Artefact)
- 3 Krosan grip (Ephémère)
- 1 Armaguedon (Rituel)
- 3 Pyroclasm (Rituel)
- 1 Devastating Dreams (Rituel)
- 1 Hull breach (Rituel)
- 1 Life from the loam (Rituel)

Gamble is really a very good card to search anything. Recoup offer the possibility to play again a burning wish. My own version play one mox diamond (for playing armaguedon) an a riftstone portal. Glacial chasm is a very good card against belcher. But, i recognise that combo decks are really too strong.

That's my two cents.

[Weekend Daddy]

SPELLS: 17
4 Exploration
4 Manabond
4 Burning Wish
3 Life From The Loam
2 Gamble

LANDS: 43
4 Taiga
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Maze Of Ith
4 Mishras Factory
3 Nantuko Monestary
3 Savannah
4 Tranquil Thicket
3 Treetop Village
2 Barbarian Ring
2 Tabernacle At The Pendrell Vale
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Vesuva

SIDEBOARD:
4 Angel's Grace (in case of Flash...plus, can't be countered)
4 Chalice Of The Void
3 Zuran Orb
1 Demonfire
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Life From The Loam
1 Wildfire

I lost all the games I played this weekend (I'm chalking it up to inexperience.). I went up against Threshhold and 9 Land Stompy. (3rd round was a bye. Might as well be a loss since I received no experience from it). Both experienced players. I don't believe I mulliganed enough, but I always went with hands that had pretty good potential. Here's what I got:

Burning Wish: EXCELLENT idea. Poor execution, this was mostly a dead card in hand
Gamble: FRIGGIN AWESOME IN THIS DECK
Glacial Chasm: Is a lifesaver. Whudathunkit for a 50 cent card.

Here's where blasphemy comes in:
Nantuko Monestary: I had a LOT of problems getting Threshhold. This was a dead card in play too, as I needed colored mana, not colorLESS...this is where Treetop village kicked Monestary in the nuts.

Vesuva: Call it gimmicky. But having that extra port or Maze of Ith HELPS. I'm confident to say that it's the equivalent of the lone Twincast maindecked in Solidarity: Not exactly the BEST draw you can get, but it'll definately do something cool when you use it.

I'm thinking of running 4 Roar Of The Wurms and some more Gambles. I believe this build was far too focused on acquiring combo pieces rather than just actually making an effort to combo off. I think the Wurms would make the deck more versatile. Either getting Loam off OR RotW. This would make Manabond that much more vital, but ah well.

I did some testing against TES, and let me say that Rishidan Port + Vesuva is the NUTS against it, they only need a couple mana sources open to go off, don't get me wrong. But they REALLY REALLY REALLY need those sources open. Plus, tapping City Of Brass with Port is FUNNY FUNNY stuff.

[Cubus]

Yeah, lately I've been wondering if running White is really necessary for this deck. In my build, it's only good for Nantuko Monasteries, a single Karakas, and sideboard material. I'm considering dropping it, and go GR or GRB.

[Weekend Daddy]

With Flash gone, does 43 land loam stand a chance in the Legacy format again? Or will it be overshadowed by Replenish/Pandeburst variants?

[IndyTerminator]

I believe it stands a chance. The deck's weakest match-up is combo, but a lot of people don't seem to be playing combo (looking at data pre-Flash). I think the deck would be a good option as you can beat aggro and control but have a worse combo match-up. Combo can at least be even I think if you splash black. I would not give up on this deck.

[ASSASSIN]

A little UP for this deck.


hello,

I would like to give a french version of 43lands :

- 2 Exploration
- 4 Manabond
- 2 Recoup
- 4 Gamble
- 3 Burning wish
- 3 Life from the loam

- 1 forgoten cave (Terrain)
- 2 barbarians ring (Terrain)
- 2 Wooded Foothills (Terrain)
- 3 Tranquil Thicket (Terrain)
- 2 Windswept Heath (Terrain)
- 4 Maze of Ith (Terrain)
- 3 Nantuko Monastry (Terrain)
- 4 Rishadan Port (Terrain)
- 1 Glacial chasm (Terrain)
- 3 Savannah (Terrain)
- 1 Secluded steppe (Terrain)
- 4 Taïga (Terrain)
- 4 wasteland (Terrain)
- 4 Mishra's factory (Terrain)
- 2 Treetop village (Terrain)
- 2 The Tabernacle At Pendrell Vale (Terrain légendaire)

sideboad :

- 4 Chalice of the void (Artefact)
- 1 Zuran Orb (Artefact)
- 3 Krosan grip (Ephémère)
- 1 Armaguedon (Rituel)
- 3 Pyroclasm (Rituel)
- 1 Devastating Dreams (Rituel)
- 1 Hull breach (Rituel)
- 1 Life from the loam (Rituel)

Gamble is really a very good card to search anything. Recoup offer the possibility to play again a burning wish. My own version play one mox diamond (for playing armaguedon) an a riftstone portal. Glacial chasm is a very good card against belcher. But, i recognise that combo decks are really too strong.

That's my two cents.
It is me :).

The beginning base is an idea of Yamaelle with 4 gamble, 4 manabond, 2 exploration and recoup. I add burning wish (very good because the sideboard is not essential in this deck) and test a little the deck so I change a little the mana base (but all the deck is a mana base ^^).

That is my 43 (42 in reality) lands after udapte :

4 Manabond
2 Exploration
4 Gamble
3 Life from the loam
3 Burning wish
2 Recoup

4 taïga
3 savannah
3 wooded foothills
2 windswept heat

4 wasteland
4 rishadan port

4 mishra factory
3 treetop village
2 nantuko monastery

4 maze of Ith
2 The Tabernacle At pendrell vale
1 glacial chasm

4 tranquil thicket

2 barbarian ring

sideboad :

4 orim's chant
3 pyroclasm
3 krosian grip
1 zuran orb
1 devastating dreams
1 life from the loam
1 hull breach
1 obliterate

The problem of ristone portal is when you have in beginning hand he can't give to you a green or red mana for pay your first (and regulary lonely) spell. So you mulligan hand with it. And when you reveal it in mid-game he may be give to you 3 manas but it is too regulary an overkill. So I prefer add a fetchland. He give to you 3 lands in the five first turns.

[Eldariel]

One thing that seems like a good plan against combo is SBing the two additional Tabernacles. It's a card you'll want to bring in against Wasteland-aggro like Goblins too, but most importantly, being able to deal with Empty the Warrens makes life VERY hard for the dirty combo-player as he HAS to go off with Tendrils/Belcher, which results in a high possibility of fizzling and even lots of forced mulligans, which you can capitalize on with other hate like Chalice of the Void.

Of course, the deck would really love artifact hate to beat Pithing Needle, but it can't run Ancient Grudge, since the second most important threat is Chalice at 2, which Grudge unfortunately doesn't answer. Shattering Spree is too mana intensive to be any good, how about just simple Oxidize or something?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Engineered Explosives deals with Needle, Chalice, and Empty the Warrens. This deck can easily bring it up to three, and so on...

Engineered Explosives is good in the current meta.

[ASSASSIN]

One thing that seems like a good plan against combo is SBing the two additional Tabernacles. It's a card you'll want to bring in against Wasteland-aggro like Goblins too, but most importantly, being able to deal with Empty the Warrens makes life VERY hard for the dirty combo-player as he HAS to go off with Tendrils/Belcher, which results in a high possibility of fizzling and even lots of forced mulligans, which you can capitalize on with other hate like Chalice of the Void.
I can see it in a theoric aspect but it is out of question I buy two others tabernacle for this deck.
Against ETW pyroclasm is a great solution too.
Goblin is a bye. Add more tabernacle because he have waste is not intelligent : I can't have two in play because it is legendary and with life from the loam tabernacle return in play the next turn. pyroclasm slow up goblin the necessary time for install the lock.
But in my last tournament I play against ichoride and I want a tabernacle and I don't find it so I loose. But it is the job of gamble.


Of course, the deck would really love artifact hate to beat Pithing Needle, but it can't run Ancient Grudge, since the second most important threat is Chalice at 2, which Grudge unfortunately doesn't answer. Shattering Spree is too mana intensive to be any good, how about just simple Oxidize or something?
oxidize is not better than krosian grip : he can't destroy a problematic enchantement (pillar, confinement, counterbalance, aluren, survival), he can be countered, is not a sorcery (a bonus in this deck). I tutorise fastly my taiga so shattering is really better. The difference in CC is not important.


Engineered Explosives deals with Needle, Chalice, and Empty the Warrens. This deck can easily bring it up to three, and so on...

Engineered Explosives is good in the current meta.
Yeah. Instead of krosian grip it is a great idea. Aluren and moat can't be destroy but it is probably better than krosan.

[raharu]

Allosaurus Rider

really

[ASSASSIN]

back to the shadow!

I couldn't explain why it is totally stupid, just look the deck and try to understand her functioning

[dahcmai]

Here's my sidboard. I play 43 lands a LOT. I just personally love any deck that beats the crap out of goblins on a regular basis. We have a few combo decks in the area with one guy playing them just about every tournament so I keep some goodies for him.


3 Aegis of Honor - We still have a few die hard Sligh players who insist the deck is still good. Well considering Price of Progress can mean game real quick-like for this deck I had to put these in. Handy for a few other random cards, but price is the main reason.

3 Children of Korlis - anti-Tendrils card. Delays the game enough to win. Makes combo a reasonable matchup. Solidarity isn't played anymore here so I don't worry about that one. Just let a few copies resolve, then gain a ton back. Usually no one will attempt it with one out much less two, but it's enough to stall out the game enough to swing in.

3 Pithing Needle - for annoying cards like Crypt and Withered Wrech. Wretch is a serious pain he's hard to deal with since he needs to be dealt with by Barbarian Ring and Threshold is a little hard to keep with him out. Crypt at least can be played around pretty easy.

3 Nevyrral's Disc - For Back to Basics and Blood Moon basically. there's not much use past that.

3 Chalice of the Void - Dedicated Extirpate hate. Handy for other stuff also, but Extirpating your loam is bad so I needed something, this is the best defense I came up with.

I haven't had a problem against much of anything else. I never saw the need for Armageddons or Zuran Orb's especially.

[ASSASSIN]

zuran orb is the best card fot the gain life. Polyvalent, put in 0 and pay 0 for active, gain more life if your opponant want make a double tendrill (because you put more land in play).

I have burning wish for all the graveyard hate.

I never see a BtB or a blood moon in a legacy table. And if a guy put one in play a day against me I accept the loose but keep 3 cards in sideboard only against that is useless.

But I have a wish sideboard so you can't compare mine side and your side.

[Tao]

Children of Korlis sounds interesting, but it is only good against Tendrils. I think Chalice is more flexible becuase you cans ide it against Burn, Threshold, Fish, Belcher and Solidarity too.

I agree that Zuran Orb is also very strong Anti Price of Progress tactic because you can sac the lands in response. But Aegis sounds also cool.

[dahcmai]

Aegis only requires you keep one mana open for price and that's pretty easy to do in this deck. It's also handy for random burn. As a side note, it actually can deflect Psionic blasts from Faerie stompy, it doesn't mention it has to be a red spell, just damage. I ran into that once. He was sure surprised to notice it after he shot himself for 6.

I never had a use for the Zuran Orbs because of the Shield. I guess that's why I don't use it.


The Chidren I agree is really narrow, but i needed something fast for the "nuts" draw TES can dish out. 1st turn kills aren't that hard to pull out of that deck and second turn is more likely. I needed a super fast answer other than "scoop". It was either that or Orim's chant. Both are pretty useful for the same purpose.

I tried Burning Wish, but it kept driving me nuts. I wanted to use it, but I'd have Manabond in the opening hand and would ditch it more often than not so I eventually tossed it. Crypt is really easy to play around and Extirpate is only used by Deadguy around here and that falls over and dies to 43 land even if you end up in topdeck mode.

Maybe it's just my luck, but that's how it works out up here. If I lose, it's to TES's speed every time.

[technogeek5000]

I think its time to necro this thread up. This deck wrecks new forms of combo, nearly all forms of aggro control, and a majority of control decks. This deck also can easily pilot around most hate that is brought in against. In my list i dropped the red splash (seemed a little underwhelming) and added more tabernacles, mulches, and im currently testing out a singleton vesuva. Here is my list

44 Lands
Non-lands:
4 exploration
4 manabond
4 mulch
4 LFTL

Lands:
4 Wasteland
4 Maze of ith
4 Rishadan port
2 Tabernacle
1 Vesuva
4 Tranquil thicket
2 Secluded steppe
4 Mishra's factory
3 Nantuko monastery
3 Treetop village
4 Savannah
4 Forest
4 fetches

Sideboard:
15 ______

The mainboard has been working extremely well for me. I have yet to lose a single game in any of my matches against aggro and against the new forms of combo (ichorid and breakfast... im pretty sure noone plays TES or belcher anymore) it does realy well against. Im pretty sure that this deck is easily strong enough to be moved to the established forum... and since i have mos of the cards for this deck i might just throw it together.

[Nihil Credo]

Is there any benefit in dropping red? The deck doesn't exactly fear Wasteland (as a minor note: ironically, the G/W version loses to Magus of the Moon outright whereas the 3c one doesn't), and at the very least being able to run >4 Life from the Loam (with Gamble or Wish, your choice) should be a good thing.

[rureddy31]

Dropping red is not an option. Gamble adds in this decks consistency. Also, Barbarian Ring is extremely good at finishing games. I do think a Forest should be added to the GenCon list in place of a savannah I think. Mulch has been underwhelming for me in the main, but there really isn't anything that could replace it. Mulch is still better than Burning Wish I think. Testing will reveal more, but that's my initial impression.

The sideboard needs the most work. I really haven't come to a consensus on what belongs and what doesn't. This is my most recent sideboard:

4x Chalice of the Void
3x Armageddon
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Engineered Explosives
2x Ancient Grudge

The only new cards for me are Explosives and Grudges. Explosives, in theory, are awesome. However, Engineered Explosives, just doesn't have a positive effect on the game. The sideboard cards, in general, have to be proactive if possible. The obvious exception is crypt. Chalices are awesome, Geddons are necessary, and I loved the 2 Grudges...I will most likely make them three. However, I don't know what else to put in the sideboard.

I'm open to input. However, the maindeck is ridiculously tight.

Regards,

Ryan Trepanier

[etrigan]

I think its time to necro this thread up. This deck wrecks new forms of combo, nearly all forms of aggro control, and a majority of control decks.


Without a significant clock, can not combo just bypass EtW and hit Charbelcher/Tendrils to kill you?

[ClearSkies]

Without a significant clock, can not combo just bypass EtW and hit Charbelcher/Tendrils to kill you?

"New" form of combo is Ichroid and Cephalid Breakfast. Neither runs storm cards. If you talking about CRET Belcher or TES, yea, it will be trouble.

[Kronicler]

I recently decided to build this deck and actually managed to do so through my friends' constant shit-giving. At first I really loved it, but the more testing I did, the more times I would stall out after a great start (which makes complete logical sense. More games played = more bad games). I mean even after going land -> exploration -> land -> manabond -> drop 3 lands on the table. Then I proceed to draw really unhelpful lands / more manabonds or explorations for like 10 turns while my opponent lays some beats and kills me right through my nonrecurring manlands and mazes of ith. I found that I was winning only if...
a) I manascrewed my opponent with wasteland and port and was able to follow it up with manland beats,
b) I managed to get a sizable army of manlands on the table within the first 2 turns and outrace my opponent,
c) I got loam and all of its crazy shit online.

Perhaps it is my own fault that I keep hands which entice me with exploration + manabond without one of these plans ready, but I can't help thinking that there has to be an easier way to make the deck more consistent.

This train of thought of course led to me Burning Wish, which I have just started testing. Perhaps my assumptions are incorrect and will be proved thusly through testing, but Burning Wish seems to have tons of synergy in this deck. It can...
a) get loam if you don't have it already,
b) get mulch if you just need more lands on the table,
c) get gamble if you need a specific land aka maze of ith against breakfast,
d) get regrowth to grab any non-land card you may need from your graveyard aka exploration, manabond, and even mulch or gamble if the one from your board has already been used.

This card seems extremely powerful. My only other quarrels with this deck are the low # of tabernacles and the deck's vulnerability to graveyard hate. I will address the latter first. If an opponent can effectively institute graveyard hate (let's say leyline of the void), not be hindered by your mana disruption, and outclass your manland beats (which at this point consist only of 4 factories and 3 treetop villages) then you are pretty much screwed, and frankly, that isn't that hard of a thing to achieve. At that point you have no recuring land destruction, no recuring threats, no card advantage engine, and no real way of winning the game. Seems bad. How do we fight this? I cannot stress this weakness enough, especially with Breakfast, Ichorid, AND Threshold being major contenders in the format right now and therefore making graveyard hate in the sideboard a complete necessity. In terms of tabernacles, I think I would go up to 2 just to make them easier to find. We don't have crop rotation to insta-tutor them up, all we have is gamble (which will most likely be finding loam, and if it already has then you are probably winning anyways), therefore I think 2 coppies are justified in order to make it more consistently available in the matches that it shines.

WOW, that was a long post!

Kronicler

[porcupinetreeman]

I think that you are correct in adding burning wish to the deck. In my meta I have been having a lot of problems with extirpate lately. Once they extirpate loam, it is pretty much game over for 43 lands.

I think the non-land cards in this deck should be

4 Exploration
4 Manabond
2 Gamble
3 Burning Wish
2 Life From The Loam
2 Mulch

This way you can

Gamble for burning wish or LFTL

[Kronicler]

Gambling for burning wish seems incredibly poor. If we are going to run burning wish, we should definately run 4, and considering the biggest reason to run it is to find loam, we should definately run 3 of those in the main too. So from your non-lands card list we need to -2 gamble or -2 mulch and +1 loam, +1 burning wish.

Kronicler

[Nihil Credo]

I am fairly confident Assassin's nonland configuration is close to optimal; the numbers on the red spells may be tweaked, but not anything else. For reference:

4 Manabond
2 Exploration
4 Gamble
3 Life from the loam
3 Burning wish
2 Recoup

- Exploration is almost pointless if you have Manabond. Its purpose is mostly as a backup; six Fastbond effects are enough to consistently see one in your opening hand.
- Gamble and Burning Wish are definitely warranted. The second gives you an out against Extirpate, which is otherwise a rout. The former is a Demonic Tutor, since for every time it grabs a LftL there are two when it just gets you the exact land you need (usually Chasm, Wasteland, or Maze)
- Recoup is great utility, giving an extra purpose to all that dredging and allowing Gamble to tutor for spells (such as postboard Pyroclasms).
- Mulch is subpar. It's a one-shot LftL that gets you 0-4 random lands, instead of the three you want: it's only a bit better on turn 2 when you have no lands in your graveyard and a Manabond in play. Otherwise, Gamble/Wish -> LftL is way better.

[Cait_Sith]

Actually 6 are NOT enough to consistently see them in your opening hand. 6/60 = 1/10. Your sample size is only 7, so there is a gap between sample size and probability.

Honestly, for speed purposes I find Exploration to be much stronger than Manabond due to its ability to allow you to use the lands you bring up right away, as opposed to have to wait until your turns end.

It is also much better in multiples.

Mulch is not as bad as you seem to think it is. It is often a draw 3 or draw 4 for just two mana, Life from the Loam takes more time to get where it needs to go.

Besides, Mulch is an outlet against Extirpate.

If you really don't like Mulch, I would suggest Devastating Dreams. It wipes the board, but thanks to your Gamble ---> LftL plus incredibly high land count makes recovery a snap.

I would try out:

4 Exploration
2 Manabond
3 Life from the Loam
2 Recoup
3 Burning Wish
3 Gamble

with Dreams in the Wishboard.

Edit: Honestly, I have never seen a need for Gamble/Burning Wish/Recoup/All this other stuff and still don't see much of one. You could argue for Gamble replacing Mulch, but outside of that I am not seeing a great difference, in test or out, except that now you have to be able to handle a robust amount of red and green, instead of just a splash.

[Guy I Don't Know]

how do you guys beat survival? i think armeggeddon helps but is there anything else? The main problem is that they have rofellos which makes info mana Survival to get magus of the moon and burning wish for ruination. The only way i can see it is possible to beat them is that they keep a bad hand mull to 4 or u wasteland them outso rofellos is useless.

[Nihil Credo]

Actually 6 are NOT enough to consistently see them in your opening hand. 6/60 = 1/10. Your sample size is only 7, so there is a gap between sample size and probability.

While that's true, I tend to mulligan aggressively with this deck, because with Loam online you end up getting 2/3 cards a turn fairly soon. Also I consider Turn 1 Gamble->Manabond a viable play, if I already have a LftL.


Honestly, for speed purposes I find Exploration to be much stronger than Manabond due to its ability to allow you to use the lands you bring up right away, as opposed to have to wait until your turns end.

That could only matter if you were tight with mana to cast Wish and LftL. Manlands can't attack anyway, and Waste/Port/Maze/Tabernacle/Cycling lands


It is also much better in multiples.

Manabond is much better in singleton.


Mulch is not as bad as you seem to think it is. It is often a draw 3 or draw 4 for just two mana, Life from the Loam takes more time to get where it needs to go.


it's only a bit better on turn 2 when you have no lands in your graveyard and a Manabond in play


Besides, Mulch is an outlet against Extirpate.

So is Burning Wish (+ Recoup, and Gamble to some extent).


If you really don't like Mulch, I would suggest Devastating Dreams. It wipes the board, but thanks to your Gamble ---> LftL plus incredibly high land count makes recovery a snap.

I play it as a Wish target already ;)


Edit: Honestly, I have never seen a need for Gamble/Burning Wish/Recoup/All this other stuff and still don't see much of one. You could argue for Gamble replacing Mulch, but outside of that I am not seeing a great difference, in test or out, except that now you have to be able to handle a robust amount of red and green, instead of just a splash.

Well, I see a ton more consistency with those cards. My games all play out basically the same way - fetch LftL somehow, hold off their mana and/or their attackers, win.


how do you guys beat survival?
They have shitty mana bases. Hit those. Game 1 you have Wasteland, Tabernacle (shuts down Birds) and Port, but Game 2 you can bring in Pyroclasms for some real pain.


The main problem is that they have rofellos which makes info mana

It dies to Clasm, and it doesn't make infi mana if their Forests (almost all of them nonbasic) get Wastelanded.


Survival to get magus of the moon

Dies to Pyroclasm.


and burning wish for ruination

Ruination is seven mana.

[tpnp]

Ruination is seven mana.
Where'd you get that? Looks like four to me:
http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=5213

[Nihil Credo]

Oops, sorry, I confused it with Devastation.

Yep, Ruination looks painful. Do Survival decks really pack it in your area?

[Guy I Don't Know]

yea, they do ,and i don't play red so pyroclasm doesnt rlly help. Neither will i ever play red.

[Kronicler]

Uh, and why not? What does any other color give you that is better then gamble and burning wish?!?

Kronicler

[Cait_Sith]

Uh, and why not? What does any other color give you that is better then gamble and burning wish?!?

Kronicler

Blue gives Academy Ruins, which lets you play md Zuran Orb and fun SB cards like Ensnaring Bridge, Pithing Needle, and Tormod's Crypt.

[Psyk]

Newest list from Sascha Thomsen, inventor of 43Lands.dec

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [UL] Treetop Village
4 [DK] Maze of Ith
2 [JU] Nantuko Monastery
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 [OD] Barbarian Ring
1 [ON] Forgotten Cave
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [FUT] Keldon Megaliths
2 [U] Savannah
4 [A] Taiga
1 [RAV] Forest (1)

// Spells
3 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [EX] Manabond
4 [US] Exploration
3 [US] Gamble
3 [JU] Burning Wish
2 [TSP] Ancient Grudge

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 2 [OV] Zuran Orb
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [PS] Hull Breach
SB: 1 [5E] Armageddon
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [FUT] Molten Disaster
SB: 1 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [TO] Devastating Dreams
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Obliterate

According to him Keldon Megatliths are good because they kill confidents, produce the much needed red mana, build up pressure when the board is stalled and when you have Manabond out you're auto-hellbent.

Have fun with the list...

[Kronicler]

@ Cait_Sith: That definately doesn't seem at nearly the same power level as Burning Wish + Gamble.

@ New List: Eh, I'm really not that impressed by this list. The first thing that caught my eye was only 3 cycling lands. That seems really poor. The second thing was the ancient grudges. Those definately do not seem like MD material unless your metagame is full of MD Pithing Needles. The last thing was the Keldon Megaliths. These actually aren't a terrible idea, but I'm not convinced. While they are substantial against gobos and fish, they are utterly worthless against thresh. I'll have to test them before I can really give an opinion though.

Kronicler

[Tacosnape]

I don't agree with the assessment that Keldon Megaliths is dead against Threshold. Keldon Megaliths is a kill condition against Threshold. If needed, you can simply commit the remainder of your resources, Mazes and Treetops and Factories and Whatever Else, to defending against Threshold's assault, while you Megalith them in the face.

Also, I may be fairly new to this deck, but is there a reason there isn't a single Rude Awakening as a Burning Wish target?

[bigbear102]

If you have room in the wishboard I guess it's not a horrible idea, but it seems like just having better answers there would be better.

[Tacosnape]

If you have room in the wishboard I guess it's not a horrible idea, but it seems like just having better answers there would be better.

Sometimes the best answer is metaphorically hitting your opponent in the face with a sledgehammer.

Also, how important is white in the deck now? I'm seeing it used for Monestary, Armageddon in the board, and like, nothing else. At all. I'm contemplating assembling this deck now that I have money, and I'm curious to know what White offers you that straight Green-Red can't.

[Guy I Don't Know]

i play it just for monastery. monastery is a HOUSE. i can't think of a replacement unless you are going to start playing creatures.

[Tacosnape]

Alright, so, I'm still working diligently on my 43 Land list and goldfishing and playing a few test games, and I had the following observations.

1. Far, far, far too many lists don't have enough ways to reliably cast a turn one Manabond/Exploration/Gamble.

2. Rishadan Port sucked. Every time I got it I wanted it to produce red, produce green, be a threat, be a defender, or be something other than what it was.

So I propose the following questions.

1. In a build without white, how many of your lands need to be able to tap for Green on turn one? For Red? Is Stomping Ground playable?

2. I have noted a massive lack of card choice writeups. Why are we running Rishadan Port again? Can it be cut or reduced to 2-ish? Why or why not?

EDIT: (For Reference, my maindeck consists of 4 Manabond, 4 Exploration, 4 Gamble, 4 Burning Wish, 3 Loam, and 41 Lands.)

[thebadmagicplayer]

Hey i'm thinking of picking this deck up soon and wanted to know why it doesnt run Crop Rotation. Also, what is the point of Armageddon? Why no Vesuva for the extra man-land/wasteland/maze of ith? Is Mulch okay in here? And finally, white looks like it's only in here for the 2-3 coppies of Nantuko Monastary, and Armageddon.
Thanks.
-T.B.M.P.

[Dissolution]

I cut white last week and haven't looked back. Gaining an additional land that deals direct damage, going up to 4 Treetop Village, and being able to play basic lands helps this deck more than the 3 Monestaries ever did.
I do run Burning Wish, though, meaning I rely on red more.

Haven't tried testing Vesuva, on first glance it looks to be slow (CIP tapped), but being able to have another manland / Rishaden Port / Maze of Ith would be nice. Not sure what to cut for it, though.
-T

[Nihil Credo]

Hey i'm thinking of picking this deck up soon and wanted to know why it doesnt run Crop Rotation.

Gamble can usually do the job just as well, and grabs LftL (or whatever you need) as well.


Also, what is the point of Armageddon?

Control decks who can't recover (as fast) as you. I prefer Devastating Dreams, though.


Why no Vesuva for the extra man-land/wasteland/maze of ith?

It's certainly a consideration, but the list is already very tight and I don't think Vesuva deserves the spot, since a CIPT Wasteland is pretty mediocre.


Is Mulch okay in here?

It's good; IMO it's not good enough, but some people swear by it.



And finally, white looks like it's only in here for the 2-3 coppies of Nantuko Monastary, and Armageddon.

Monastery is an absolute beast - there are good Landstill builds that splash green just for that. Anyway, white also helps to play EE@3 and to run sideboard Orim's Chants.

[bigbear102]

I agree with Nihil on this, Monastery is a house. It lets you go aggro and win the game quickly, where as Barb. Ring and Factory are a bit slow in that department. Going to time in the round is bad for control decks, and Monastery helps there a lot.

I also agree that Port is not needed as much. I would think that 2 is enough. Getting colored mana is important. I don't know if Stomping Ground is the way to go, but possibly Horizon Canopy, as it lets you draw/dredge. It is usually better than cycling lands, as you can drop it into play turn 1 to get ur engine going, and then use it as a draw. I would look into playing 1-2 of them.

[Guy I Don't Know]

i have found that the more ports the merrier, i wish i could run 8 of them, and i crop rotation for them frequently.

[Dissolution]

I agree, I win so many games by being able to lock the opponent's basic lands that I would never cut Port below 4.
-T

[Joon]

Alright, this is my version of Lands!.dec:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
2 [OD] Barbarian Ring
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
1 [JU] Riftstone Portal
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 [DK] Maze of Ith
4 [B] Taiga
4 [UL] Treetop Village
3 [JU] Nantuko Monastery
4 [R] Savannah
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Spells
3 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [EX] Manabond
4 [US] Exploration
3 [US] Gamble
3 [JU] Burning Wish
1 [OD] Recoup

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 2 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 2 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [SH] Mulch
SB: 1 [TO] Nostalgic Dreams
SB: 4 [TSP] Pull from Eternity

As you can see, I included a few new tricks with Burning Wish/Recoup. Recoup can also be used as Flashback for Gamble to search for a special land (i.e. Maze or Tabernacle). I don't know if cutting Ports was the right decision but too often they weren't useful. Recently I'd play Ports if had space in there -.-

[rureddy31]

Perhaps I can offer some insight. I'm probably not going to anwer things in order, so you have to read everything to find your specific answer... :P

1. Turn 1 Manabond or Exploration is good. However, it is not necessary. Consequently, it is fine to play a Trnaquil Thicket, then cast the Enchantment on turn 2. The deck is fast enough at disrupting, that one turn will not hurt. Furthermore, against Thresh on the play, you should be playing your Enchantments on turn 2 anyway (to avoid Daze).

2. Regarding Rishadan Port: Port normally functions as Wastelands 5-8. At times, they are very underwhelming. However, they can be very handy against Threshold decks running Stifle. Combined with Tabernacle, Rishadan Port effectively shuts off Stifle. Rishadan Ports are probably one of the least powerful lands in the deck, but they are a necessary part of the mana denial.

3. Burning Wish: I cannot stress this enough. Burning Wish is not good. It costs two mana. It costs you a turn of doing nothing, and it doesn't get anything that should be relevant. Gamble does the job, and 3 Gamble is enough. Mulch is a better card in almost every respect. This deck wants to dig as much as possible. Mulch helps you do that. That being said, Mulch is the weakest spell in the deck. I've been contemplating whether to drop it down to 2 for quite some time now.

4. Recoup: Win more. Being fancy might be fun, but Recoup certainly does not help you win games you wouldn't be winning anyway. If you have LftL going, who cares that you can flashback sorceries in your yard? Really...

5. Tabernacle: Great card, and thanks to Gamble, you only have to run one. I've considered a second in the board, but goblins is already an awesome matchup.

6. Mana wise, 4 fetchlands, 4 Taiga, 3 Savannah and 4 Tranquil Thicket seem to be enough. You can't really gum the deck up with lands that just produce mana...You only need one source to get the ball rolling. Sometimes you'll lose to a well timed Wasteland, but that is just how the ball rolls.

Regarding Sacha's list: Megaliths are very interesting, though I refuse to believe that they are better than Rings...I hate Burning Wish, and probably always will. The only reason I ended up playing Gamble is because of the importance of getting LftL, and the awesome Utility of being able to get a land. Ancient Gurdges MD seem to be a hefty meta call. I'm leave em on the bench. Lastly, I think he's short at least on or two on cycle lands.

Just my two cents...

- Ryan Trepanier

[Tacosnape]

I, for what it's worth, haven't liked Burning Wish in my testing either. I don't quite feel that a utility control deck is exactly what this deck is. It feels more like a very slow combo deck with early prison/control elements.

[rureddy31]

Burning Wish is really only good when it is drawn in a hand of Exploration with no Manabond. You really can't count on drawing too many spells once you get LftL. Even then, in a hand of Exploration and land, Mulch seems like it would be just as effective, if not more at digging deeper for land, while simultaneously being able to find LftL.

However, I take Sacha's word pretty heavily, as he IS the creator. I will definitely put more effort into testing B. Wish, and probably Megalith as well, but I don't expect much...

[Tacosnape]

The one problem I ran into without Burning Wish was an extreme vulnerability to Extirpate, which is pretty rampant around where I play. Burning Wish lets you recover from Exie quite nicely. But I agree that it struggles to fit into the mode of the deck sometimes.

Keldon Megaliths is a different story, though. I heart the Megaliths. I've won many a game by defending and throwing single points of damage in the opponent's face. I still like a single Ring, however, as the ability to pick off the ever annoying Meddling Mage is worth the inclusion.

[Dissolution]

In my list, I run 2 Megaliths and 2 Barbarian Ring. The ability of the Megaliths has won me many games, from killing opposing Dark Confidants, to simply ping for 1 every turn, and the ever favorite of dealing that 1 extra damage to a creature that blocked your manland.

-T

[rureddy31]

I honestly can't think of many decks that run MD Extripate. After SB, you bring in your Chalices to set at one.

Megaliths definitely deserves testing, however, it might be troublesome to find two spots from my GenCon list. 1-2 Rings HAVE to stay...

I'm curious as to see people's non-wish boards...My most recent one is the following:

4x Chalice of the Void
3x Armageddon
3x Engineered Explosives
3x Tormod's Crypt
2x Ancient Grudge

Of course, this is a non-meta specific board. This would be the board as I would bring it to GenCon, or another huge Legacy tournament.

As usual, if you have any other questions about the deck, I love talking about this deck, and its strategies so feel free to post or even PM me.

- Ryan Trepanier

[Kronicler]

I completely disagree with peoples' assessment of burning wish. It is fantastic in this deck. Not only does it get loam (which is so much more important than people seem to think, I'll get to this later) but it can get all sorts of other goodies that can really make a big difference in a game. My current wish targets include Loam, Mulch, Regrowth (wow, this card is nuuuts), Hull Breach, Gamble, Pyroclasm, and a few other things that I can't remember right now (deck is with a friend), but the versatility that BWish gives has saved me innumerable times. I would go into specific situations but there are just too many.

Now onto the point of it getting loam. I can't believe that an argument people are using against it is that it costs you a turn of doing nothing / it doesn't get anything relevant. How bout it costs you a turn to get the most important card in your entire deck. 3 Gamble and 4 loam is NOT enough to ensure that you get it consistently, especially against decks with counter magic. Do you think that any aggro-control player in their right mind is going to let your gamble resolve? Hell no. And then what? You just sit and draw a single card a turn doing very little while they build up their board and smash you. Even if you wasteland them a couple times or port down their lands or chump block their guys, without loam you will most likely lose. Mulch is terrible for the opposite reason Burning Wish is amazing: Mulch doesn't find loam for sure. It will help you find loam because it shows you 4 more cards, it will give you more time to live, and it will certainly give you more land, but if those loams are sitting near the bottom of your deck then you will not get to them in time. Mulch is a temporaty solution to a problem that isn't going away. Loam is the solution. Burning wish finds the solution NOW, and then you will start drawing all the cards and lands you need with its help, so who the hell needs mulch?

Finally, Burning Wish pwns extirpate. I know we all know this, I just felt that I couldn't leave it out of the list of good things about burning wish.

Kronicler

[freakish777]

Considering Tiago Chan won the invitational (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/mi07/cardsubmissions) and his card submission was:

Denying Channel
Land
T: Add to your mana pool.
2UU, Discard Denying Channel: Counter target spell.

does anyone have some suggestions for splashing blue? Having a counterspell every turn on top of the Wastelands/Ports and Manlands seems like it could be some good...

[Bovinious]

Considering that card is pretty awful in its current form, I doubt it will see print as is.

[aardshark]

I completely disagree with peoples' assessment of burning wish. It is fantastic in this deck . . . . My current wish targets include Loam, Mulch, Regrowth (wow, this card is nuuuts), Hull Breach, Gamble, Pyroclasm, and a few other things that I can't remember right now (deck is with a friend), but the versatility that BWish gives has saved me innumerable times. I would go into specific situations but there are just too many.
Kronicler

(Not that Kronicler's avatar indicates any bias...)

I am said friend in possession of Kronicler's deck, which I piloted into the top-8 of a 21 person tourney at our local shop (after having played only a couple of practice games with the deck ever), only to lose in the top 8 to my very best matchup -- 4 color zoo.

Kronicler's 43 (er, 42) land wishboard also features 1 Molten Disaster, 1 Armageddon, and 1 Devestating Dreams (the non-wish board was 4 chalice and 2 ancient grudge).

I agree with Kronicler that the ability of burning wish to find loam and answers outweighs the cost of slowing down the deck. Burning wishes functions as artifact and enchantment destruction and board clearering, frees up vital space maindeck, and finds loam (key!).

That said, burning wish is slow and anti-tempo. Its noteworthy that I lost game 3 of the top 8 against zoo (!), where I drew 3 consecutive burning wishes versus turn 0 leyline followed by bob and tarmogoyf. Notwithstanding my ability to find "answers", I just couldn't recover from the slow start. I'm therefore not sure B-wish belongs as a 4 of (as it is in Kronicler's current build) -- perhaps 3 would be better (see Sascha build).

I think Dissolution may be on to something cutting white. Playing white ONLY for Nantuko Monestary (and Geddon in the board) seems weak. Monestaries are great, but often seemed win-more. Unlike factories they didn't keep me from taking early damage, and once I got to threshhold with my dredge engine going they just helped me end the game quicker (admittedly they were key in one match where I was racing very bad combo). Cutting white makes room for basic lands (key against bloodmoon effects, which could be very good now), and Keldon Megaliths. Extra bodies (if needed) could be found in a full set of Treetop Villages (if you're not already playing them all), Ghitu encampments, or even the green Genju.

However, I think the deck might want more enchantment removal (perhaps ray of revelation?) which weighs in favor of white. The two matches I lost were both to enchantments -- counterbalance and leyline of the void specifically. Ray seems strong v. counterbalance -- even if its countered at first it lies in wait in your graveyard for instant-speed removal at the opportune time. Wishing for hull breach to remove counterbalance is almost certanly futile. I also found that LotV was crippling, and against even modestly speedy agro b-wish --> hull breach followed by B-wish --> board clearer was too slow. More ways to deal would have been nice.

Another thing I found annoying was the heavy red in my wishboard. I often found myself with only 1 red in play in the early turns, which meant pyroclasm was the only answer I could cast. Tarmogoyf was tough to deal with, unless I'd found maze of ith. (Leyline + Tarmogoyf + bob is how the zoo deck beat me both games, although I admittedly drew suboptimally).

Has Kronicler (or anyone else) considered Rolling Earthquake in lieu of Pyroclasm or Molten Disaster? I'd think the ability to clear the board (including tarmogoyfs) with a single red source in play is worthy of consideration.

Finally, I really wanted access to lifegain after sideboard. Against even modest burn (e.g. 4 lightning bolts) you risk being knocked to low life and burned out in the long game. Sascha has 2 zuran orb in his side, which seems good (just 1 might be ok with gambles & wishes). Another techy (but likely inferior) option is genju of the field (remember the multiple activations trick).

Anyhow, just some random thoughts from a total 43 land noob...

[rureddy31]

Alright, a couple things to address. I think people fail to realize there is a pretty effective way to find Loam, or to find a way to find it...MULLIGAN. Please tell me, what kind of hand are you going to keep if you don't have Loam, or a way to find it? You should not keep 6 Land, Manabond or Exploration hands (unless your hand is all man lands, in which case you go super aggro). That being said, if you are able to burning wish for any of your SB cards, what are you actually in need of? You obviously have the Loam going....everything else is win more. You pawn aggro, you pawn aggro control, and lose to combo. That's the way it works. If you want a Wish Board, play Aggro Loam. If not, play 43 Land. The more spells you rely on, the weaker your deck becomes...That being said, Mulch is pretty effective at digging 4 deep, AND getting you critical lands.

Regarding Extripate, I've already gave you my opinion. Chalice for 1. That pawns Extripate too. Also, in a large scale tournament, Extripate souldn't be a concern. There aren't many black decks, and the ones that do play black play Leyline, not Extripate. Threshold is the number one deck. Extripate does nothing against it, Leyline o the other hand is quite effective.

Regarding the sideboard: Ray of Revelation deserves at least two spots, maybe three... I am not sure which card is better: Ancient Grudge, or Ray... It's a choice between Leyline or Grudge. However, Grudge can be played from the graveyard, Ray can't (because Leyline's in play), so it might make more sense to run 3 Ray, 2 Grudge.

Regarding cutting white: NO! White is extremely important. Nantuko Monastery is a house, and it doesn't hurt the mana at all...the mana in this deck is fine, stop crying wolf!

Dealing with Tarmogoyf: Removal is unecessary and win more. Maze deals with him attacking, and Monastery + Barbarian Ring or Megaliths deals with him as a blocker. Also, you don't need to attack to win...remember that...

I don't want to sound condescending, but Top 8ing a 21 person tournament is not much of an accomplishment and doesn't really prove that your build is good, or even better than the other ones out there. However, I'm just giving my 2 cents, take it with a grain of salt.

[aardshark]

I don't want to sound condescending, but Top 8ing a 21 person tournament is not much of an accomplishment and doesn't really prove that your build is good, or even better than the other ones out there. However, I'm just giving my 2 cents, take it with a grain of salt.

I've played less than 20 games with this deck, which was handed to me right before the tourney (and I had zero input on the build), so of course I'm no expert! My "success" (if ultimately losing to a great matchup can be called that) had little to do with me and everything to do with the dirth of combo at the tourney.

That said, my view may be skewed in favor of burning wish because I have played agro loam, so I'm used to the wishboard. However, mulligans are never a good thing, and if you play only 7 loams (4 loam, 3 gamble, because you can't count mulch), you will be mulliganing more often than you would with burning wish. And as Kronicler points out relying on a 1 gamble hand against control & agro-control isn't ideal, as they will actively counter your gamble -- yes you can play around daze, but that gives them more time to find force of will (and may play into counterbalance).

You do have a point about the (non)utility of the wishboard. Playing 3 (!) board clearing effects in the wishboard of a deck that's already so stong v. agro does smack of win-more. And I'm not aware of any good potential wish targets against combo in red, green or white (other than 'geddon, which is only really stong versus the near-extinct solidarity).

And I wonder -- in my 3 burning-wish loss to zoo (only 1 was in my opening hand), if those had been mulch I might have accelrated into enough gas to stabalize. But bob+leyline was a big problem for "my" build, and I'm not sure mulch would have been enough without a way to stop the bob engine. Grim lavamancer was also rough. Perhaps a couple of Megaliths would help against non-attacking creature threats such as these (although you don't seem keen on that card either).

Thanks for the tips -- its awesome that someone with so much experience with the deck takes the time to weigh in with their thoughts!

- Galen

[Illissius]

Considering Tiago Chan won the invitational (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/mi07/cardsubmissions) and his card submission was:

Denying Channel
Land
T: Add to your mana pool.
2UU, Discard Denying Channel: Counter target spell.

does anyone have some suggestions for splashing blue? Having a counterspell every turn on top of the Wastelands/Ports and Manlands seems like it could be some good...

Other blue considerations: (in roughly this order)

Cephalid Coliseum
Academy Ruins
Intuition
Tolaria West

[Dissolution]

In my meta, there is no combo, it's all aggro and aggro-control. Everyone sideboards against me, so I see Back to Basics, Tsabo's Web, Extirpate, and the like every game 2 or 3. Cutting white let me play 3 basic Forests, enough to play around Back to Basics. I still run Ray of Revelation in my sideboard, because it's either discarded to Manabond or I end up dredging it into my yard.
Never seen a Leyline of the Void yet.
I also run two maindeck Ancient Grudge, as most decks are packing Pithing Needle's main or sideboard.

As for mulliganning, in my experience, all you have to keep is a hand with either:
Exploration or Manabond
Really broken lands (Tabernacle + 2 Maze + 2 Factory against aggro, for example)
And that's it. I have never mulliganned just to get a LftL.
-T

[Belgareth]

Other blue considerations: (in roughly this order)

Cephalid Coliseum
Academy Ruins
Intuition
Tolaria West

If you start playing 1st 3 you may aswell play Di's Eternal garden and use trinisphere to cement combo matchup.

[Illissius]

Not necessarily. You could also just use Coliseums in place of cycling lands, Intuition instead of Gamble/Wish, and a pair of each Mindslaver and Academy for a comboish kill. (Or some other artifact bullets, as you like).

[FredMaster]

My current sideboard looks like this:
4 CotV
4 EE
4 Pull from Eternity - Extirpate sux
3 Armageddon

[rureddy31]

Hah...very interesting with the Pull from Eternity's.

However, I would suggest that if you REALLY are that afraid of Extripate (Which I can tell you that I am not), take the 3 Mulch out of the maindeck, replace them with Burning Wish, and create a wishboard. If Extripate is a huge card in your metagame, than the Wish version is likely to be better. However, at a GenCon for example, Extripates would be more rare...

[freakish777]

If you start playing 1st 3 you may aswell play Di's Eternal garden and use trinisphere to cement combo matchup.

Di's list only runs 1 Loam (yeah it's tutorable with Intuition, I know), and appears to rely heavily on Ancient Tombs, making it potentially weaker against burn based aggro lists.

However, this probably isn't a bad idea, perhaps a hybridized list is in order when we get more information on what Tiago's card will actually be printed as?

[rureddy31]

Blue shouldn't be an issue. It's slower then red, and gains you nothing important...It's just fancier and maybe nicer looking. Red does the job much better though.

[freakish777]

Blue shouldn't be an issue. It's slower then red, and gains you nothing important...It's just fancier and maybe nicer looking. Red does the job much better though.


An uncounterable counterspell or 2 every turn is nothing important? Seems like the beginnings of a good way to improve the bad combo match-up to me. Can you elaborate a bit more?

[rureddy31]

What combo decks are you afraid of? High Tide is at an ultimate low, Iggy Pop same thing...The two combo decks, Ichorid and Breakfast are very beatable. Consequently, it seems foolish to hurt a strong deck vs. aggro and aggro/control....

[Belgareth]

You could be fearing TES or Belcher, neither of which are so low as to be ignored ?
Not that I think this deck needs blue (it doesn't).

[freakish777]

I don't necessarily think it needs blue. I just think that if Tiago's card sees print as is, that there's a good reason to test it, and that some other ideas as far as splashing blue would be nice to have in the event that it pans out.

In particular, TES seems like a terrible match up (and is played quite often in the North East US). You have what appears to be zero disruption for them game 1, if they have a hand that makes more than 8 EtW tokens on turn one (which is usually the right play against an unknown opponent) your only out is Tabernacle, otherwise, your only chance is that they get the worst hand ever, somehow keep it (ie they're a flat out bad player), and draw poorly too, while you're manlands go beat-down. So you're essentially starting down a game.

If you feel you can chalk up the bad match up and focus on the good match-ups, I suppose I can't argue with that (at least not well), but I figured it couldn't hurt to pick your brain about the deck, as I'm sure you're a better player and deck-builder than I am.

[rureddy31]

Here's the thing... If you build a blue list, how quickly can you get the land active? Remember, the combo decks that this deck has trouble with are fast, storm combos. You're hand would have to be extremely powerful in order to be quick enough to have the counter online. Consequently, the land interacts quite poorly with one of the engines of the deck - Manabond.

While it seems cool to counter a spell every turn forever, it just isn't feasible, or really necessary. Yes, you have to chalk up TES, Solidarity and Belcher to a bad matchup that is possible beatable post board....

Regards,

Ryan Trepanier

[dragzz]

I believe its time to necro this thread,

With morningtide on its way, I wonder if the set could offer us new cards that we could take into consideration.

The two obvious cards that we would of course be Mutavaults and Countryside Crushers.

CSC: Seems to me that on paper Countryside Crusher would be awesome in this deck (for obvious reasons) but the problem with him is that he would probably die even before he does anything. With loads of removal spells in the format how good would he be?

Mutavaults: Would this card find a home in 43 land? and if so, what would we cut for it?

I have tried splashing blue mainly for academy ruins and intuition, I have entirely cut the mulch for them and it works really well.

I believe that the discussion ended with the question if blue should be included in the deck or not, has anybody else has tried the blue splash and how is it working out?

Also does anyone have an updated list?

[94teen]

I haven't done much testing with 43 Land Deck, but I've done lots of work with variations of Di's Eternal Garden deck, and I have to say that blue is incredibly powerful in that kind of deck.

Intuition tutors for three lands of your choice, Gifts gets 4. I've done some testing with Manabond because it makes Ensnaring Bridge really good, but I'm not as fond of it in a deck that actually needs to resolve a few key spells.

So, blue is good, I think. Tutoring for lands of your choice seems much better than just digging through your deck, especially since having mana available shouldn't be too much of a problem.

[technogeek5000]

Mutavault and crusher would change the way the deck plays out, but i think it would change it for the better. You would run a bunch of manlands with the crushers which would give the deck a reasonable aggro gameplan while at the same time taxing the opponent with waste/port/tabernacle. This kind of plan would seem realy strong but it would essentially play out as a new type of deck... sort of like aggro loam but alot more lands and manlands in place of vore and goyf. A crusher, mutavault list would probably look something like this:

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [UL] Treetop Village
4 [DK] Maze of Ith
2 [JU] Nantuko Monastery
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [ON] Windswept heath
3 [u] Savannah
4 [A] Taiga
1 [RAV] Forest (1)
3 [MOR] Mutavault

// Spells
4 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [EX] Manabond
4 [US] Exploration
4 [MOR] Countryside Crusher

Looks pretty strong.

[Mordenkaynen]

Good evening to all. I see here are many people who play this deck and are interested in new ideas. Because of this I'll post an engine that I haven't test at all, but which looks powerful as it's possible to put it in the deck [sorry if my english looks gnarled ;)]. Actually, I played monogreen list, and the idea of blue splash meant big work to reconstruct it, but if it's interesting, you can try it yourselves.

So, the idea is the lock of spellweaver helix+mad sorcery[best one is getting additional turn, like walk the aeons as I know]+1 LftL in grave. Why does it mean blue splash? Because of academy ruins. And, most likely, intuition, which calls all the lock pieces to you hand/graveyard. It may be that this reconstruction demand this deck to reduse its ultimative stratagy, because, you see, engine is heavy to be 'invisible' in the deck building and way of playing.

In fact it mean adding:
1-2 'mad sorcery'
1 academy ruins (it can be called by crop rotation, so not more, I think)
1-2 spell weaver helix
hardly recomended - 2-3 intuition (without it other pieces seems to be disuseful*)
And also reducing quantity of mulch and/or manabond.
As an addition, crusible of worlds become more useful with academy ruins and there appears a chance to use any artifact (which can be fetched by intuiton with ruins) if it's necessary - zuran's orb, trinisphere, needle, eng. explosives, etc. But, as I said it's very important not to be carried away with new ideas and safe the deck's advantage which is based on big quantity of lands and their utility. To harmonize two ideas Mirri's Guile can be useful (mostly to understand if it's better to dredge or not).

* And two words about 'disuseful' pieces of the lock. Well, helix can be used also with roar of the wurm. Academy ruins was commented. Walk of aeons? Not very good card, but if it is in your hand, you can play it usually (6 mana in this deck is not a big problem), but really not good. Intuition can fetch you any land (up to 3 lands) or any artifact (with ruins), actually, it was worded two posts above, excluding artifacts.

[dragzz]

Mordenkaynen:
I agree with the inclusion of academy ruins and 2-3 pieces of intuition, however, I disagree with the inclusion of spellweaver helix.

The thing is you'll have to have helix target in the graveyard and a copy of it on your hand. and in order to do this you'll need some form of tutoring. Intuition would give you all the the tree combo pieces but more often than not, your opponent would most probably choose to give the helix and then you'll have a target and but have nothing to cast, and then you'll have no way of recurring the spell you have on your yard.

But if you insist on testing it, I suggest you go with the build that runs burning wish and splashes blue for intuition and academy ruins.

Your list would look something like.
4 Burning Wish
4 Manabond
4 Exploration
3 Life from the Loam
2 Intuition
2 Spellweaver Helix
2 Sorceries or whatnot

Keep in mind that as you decrease you land count manabond weakens.

Burning wish lets you run 2 different sorcery spells, and just run the copy on the wishboard, also you could actually imprint the loam and the wish, which seems really strong on theory. Anyway, I don't have the time to test your suggestions, but I believe It could work so please if you have the time you could try it out.

*Note though, maybe the Spellweaver Helix would be better on 5c Enternal Garden rather than this deck?

technogeek5000:
How about tutors?
Also, I would suggest at least +1 Volrath's Stronghold on the main, if you have tested the deck, have you had any problems keeping crusher in play?

[Mordenkaynen]

@dragzz - May be you didn't understand, I mean that you remove 'mad sorcery' in graveyard, LftL in graveyard and then use Life in hand. In mid-game there is no problem usually to have two Lifes there and other sorcery can be fetched by intuition. What is the problem then?

[dragzz]

@dragzz - May be you didn't understand, I mean that you remove 'mad sorcery' in graveyard, LftL in graveyard and then use Life in hand. In mid-game there is no problem usually to have two Lifes there and other sorcery can be fetched by intuition. What is the problem then?

Sorry my bad. I re-read the text on spellwear helix, I initially thought that you'll should play a copy of the spell you played.

Seems to have a lot of potential, and could also work even without adding additional sorcery cards, Burning Wish target + LoftL seems to be quite a decent combo already.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Hey, I kind of dabble with this deck a little. I was curious on anyone's thoughts in my build:

Spells:
3x Mulch
3x Crucible of Worlds
3x Gamble
4x Exploration
4x Manabond
4x Life From the Loam

Lands:
1x Forgotten Cave
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Nantuko Monastery
1x Tabernacle
1x Glacial Chasm
2x Savannah
2x Barbarian Ring
3x Tranquil Thicket
3x Treetop Village
4x Taiga
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Rishadan Port
4x Windswept Heath
4x Maze of Ith
4x Wasteland

SB:
1x Ghost Quarter
3x Ray of Revalation
3x Ancient Grudge
4x Ghostly Prison
4x Chalice of the Void

I REALLY like Crucible of Worlds in the main, against a lot of decks, Glacial Chasm just wins and playing Crucible is like playing +3 Lftl and just makes the lock that much easier. I have not tried the Burning Wish idea but I personally just like Crucible, it seems a natural fit in the deck. Also, this deck is fitted to suit my local meta which has a TON of graveyard hate and I just feel safer running Crucible. I was curious what anyone would think to cut in my main to try and fit in 2x Zuran Orb. I have found myself wanting that card a number of different times. I tried Nomad Stadium but just never liked it much. Regarding the sideboard, I HAVE to have the 3x Grudge and 3x Ray cause my meta randomly has Worship and Solitary Confinement as well as a TON of Affinity. However I would really like to fit Pithing Needle or Rule of Law into the side, any suggestions?

[dragzz]

from experience I believe running 1 Crucible + 1 Academy Ruins is better that running 3. Also academy ruins lets you run a single EE or any artifact you wish without worrying about them ending up in the graveyard.

I almost have the same list as yours except that I run
-2 Crucible + 1 Academy Ruins + 1 EE
-1 Savannah + 1 Riftstone Portal
-1 Forgotten Cave + 1 Tranquil Thicket
-1 Ghost Quarter -1 Treetop Village 2 + Tropical Islands

------------------------------------------------------------

On the other hand. I have been trying to fit Countryside Crusher into the deck, it seems to be harder that it looks. The deck was designed to run without creatures and placing them in greatly affects the way the deck is suppose to work. But they are just far to strong to be ignored.

Anyway,
I have always been an advocate of running blue for intuition and it seems that with Countryside Crusher this would be the best approach for the deck.

Here's my proposed list:
Non-Land Cards
4 Manabond
4 Exploration
3 Life from the Loam
3 Gamble
3 Intuition
2 Mulch

Creature
3 Countryside Crusher(could be adjusted +/- 1)

Artifacts
1 EE
1 Crucible/Tormods...etc

37 Lands
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Taiga
1 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
1 Tabernacle
4 Tranquil Thicket
4 Maze of Ith
1 Forgotten Cave
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Academy Ruins
1 Petrified Field
1 Barbarian Ring

This list runs only 37 Lands which obviously weakens manabond.

Thoughts?

[FredMaster]

I think you're too vulnerable for Swords, looking at the Crusher. In times of like 3 different Landstill builts, that all have Deeds or EEs aditionally, i don't think that Countryside Crusher is too much of a good option for this deck. I'd honestly run it if my meta was Burn and/or BYEs.
What, if you run 3 and dredge 1 away, and necessarily throw one into the Bond, out of the situation? Or you try to tutor it up with Gamble and fail (by discarding it).

I don't think it is very smart to play him.


Something else:
Can't somebody come up with some more traditional list? I mean without this blue splash, that makes this deck just worse than the Eternal Garden imo.
Or is the Splash really necessary to play this deck in a competitive way?

[fetchesbasiclands]

from experience I believe running 1 Crucible + 1 Academy Ruins is better that running 3. Also academy ruins lets you run a single EE or any artifact you wish without worrying about them ending up in the graveyard.

I almost have the same list as yours except that I run
-2 Crucible + 1 Academy Ruins + 1 EE
-1 Savannah + 1 Riftstone Portal
-1 Forgotten Cave + 1 Tranquil Thicket
-1 Ghost Quarter -1 Treetop Village 2 + Tropical Islands

------------------------------------------------------------

On the other hand. I have been trying to fit Countryside Crusher into the deck, it seems to be harder that it looks. The deck was designed to run without creatures and placing them in greatly affects the way the deck is suppose to work. But they are just far to strong to be ignored.

Anyway,
I have always been an advocate of running blue for intuition and it seems that with Countryside Crusher this would be the best approach for the deck.

Here's my proposed list:
Non-Land Cards
4 Manabond
4 Exploration
3 Life from the Loam
3 Gamble
3 Intuition
2 Mulch

Creature
3 Countryside Crusher(could be adjusted +/- 1)

Artifacts
1 EE
1 Crucible/Tormods...etc

37 Lands
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Taiga
1 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
1 Tabernacle
4 Tranquil Thicket
4 Maze of Ith
1 Forgotten Cave
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Academy Ruins
1 Petrified Field
1 Barbarian Ring

This list runs only 37 Lands which obviously weakens manabond.

Thoughts?

I really think this deck should run at least one black manasource to support Stronghold.

[Jak]

You lose to Blood Moon and Magus.

[Ozymandias]

I think that scapeshift might be a good card in the aggro matchup. Since you can drop it turn 2, you can just scape into a bunch of manlands, Mazes, or a Tabernacle, and go from there.

[Dissolution]

You know, with the printing of Scapeshift, I wonder if a list with Recoup, Scapeshift, and Mulch might be the way to go.
Though, it'd take 8 mana to play Scapeshift this way, being able to replace all 8 lands with your choice of brokenness might be what this deck needs.

-T

[FredMaster]

Something else:
Can't somebody come up with some more traditional list? I mean without this blue splash, that makes this deck just worse than the Eternal Garden imo.
Or is the Splash really necessary to play this deck in a competitive way?
:rolleyes:

[Joon]

Here (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=10901) and Here (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=10975).

I think Crusher is a pretty good SB tech, as many Decks will board out Creaturehate against you (of course not all because of the Manlands) but after Boarding their Removalpackage should be minimized.

I guess every 42/43 Lands.dec has the following Core:

4 Exploration
4 Manabond
4 LftL
3-4 Gamble

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Riftstone Portal
3-4 Treetop Villages
3-4 Nantuko Monastery
3-4 Tranquil Thicket
4 Fetches, usual 2 Heath 2 Foothills
3-4 Taiga
3-4 Savannah

When always choosing the lowest number, 8 slots remain. In my version I went +1 Gamble, +1 Village, +1 Monastery, +1 Thicket and plus 1 Savannah. This leaves three open slots which are occupied (in my version) with 1 Barbarian Ring and 1 Keldon Megaliths and one open slot.

My current Sideboard:

4 Pull from Eternity (secret tech against sucking Extirpates)
4 Crusher (secret tech, posted above)
4 Chalice (pesky Combo, but this won't improve that Matchup much I think)
3 Ancient Grudge (sucking Chalice @ 2 or so)

Let me hear what you think.

[FredMaster]

@ your linky stuff:
I know that the deck had success in the past. That wasn't what I was asking for. My question was basically if it is smart to play with the splash and if it improves Matchups. Because the last like 30 posts were either a discussion about which blue tutor or just a decklist - oftentimes including ridiculous cardchoices.

My sideboard looks like this by the way:
4 Chalice
4 Armageddon
4 Crusher
3 Ancient Grudge

[Joon]

If I'd splash blue then only very light with Intuition in the place of Gamble. Intuition is obv. more expensive but fetches three Lands or two Lands and Loam or SAFE Manabond. Sounds good to me. Everything else (these Artifact Ruins tech, too) changes the deckplan too much.
But - 4 Gamble + 4 Intuition and the adding of 2-3 Blue duals and one more fetch seems reasonable. I dislike Chalices in the Side as they eat space and you'll probably loose to Combo anyway. Armaeddon isn't that tech too imho. Got to get tested.

Blue list:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
1 [OD] Barbarian Ring
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
1 [JU] Riftstone Portal
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 [DK] Maze of Ith
3 [B] Taiga
4 [UL] Treetop Village
4 [JU] Nantuko Monastery
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [FUT] Keldon Megaliths
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [B] Savannah
2 [B] Tropical Island

// Spells
4 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [EX] Manabond
4 [US] Exploration
4 [TE] Intuition

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [TSP] Pull from Eternity
SB: 4 [MOR] Countryside Crusher


If Tundra or Volcanics should be played can be discussed. Maybe we should play one more fetchland, too.

[FredMaster]

The problem with Intuition is:
Practically it can only search for lands, if you play against anything with a force.
Because if you search for 3 Manabonds, you'll get one in hand, it gets countered... end of story.
That's why i'd still go with Gamble. You need this enchantment more than any land in the deck.

[Joon]

And your nasty Enchantment won't get countered if you search it with Gamble...? If the opponent has a counter, he'll counter the Intuition, because with Intuition you're much more dangerous without Exploration/Manabond as you can tutor up 3 Manlands or 3 Ports that will lock the opponent out of the game. I think that Intuition is >>....>>>> Gamble in this deck.

[dragzz]

I really think this deck should run at least one black manasource to support Stronghold.

Ooops my bad. I was building the list out of the my head and I forgot all about the black source.

I believe the traditional list runs the ff. as the core cards
4 Manabond
4 Exploration
3 Mulch
3-4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam

Of course the remaining are a mix of manlands, fetches, waste, source and control elements.



The problem with Intuition is:
Practically it can only search for lands, if you play against anything with a force.
Because if you search for 3 Manabonds, you'll get one in hand, it gets countered... end of story.
That's why i'd still go with Gamble. You need this enchantment more than any land in the deck.

Then why not run both?

I run intuition in place of mulch and not in place of gamble. Mulch _is_ the weakest card in the deck so the obvious choice is to replace it with something better, that is where Intuition comes in.

Intuition could _never_ replace the role that gamble plays in this deck, Gamble helps you consistently play a turn 1/2 Manabond and also helps you get LftL engine going as early as turn 2.

But Intuition certainly does a better job than Mulch. Mulch would only help you dig for answers, and does not certify that you'll get the answers you need. While Intuition would certainly get you what you need.

And also, intuition was never meant to search for Manabond or Exploration, its there to search for LftL + Lands.

[Brehn]

If you're discussing whether Intuition/Crusher/whatever should be played you should focus more on what the deck actually doesn't like to see. I don't care if my opponent does or does not side out his creature removal or Force an Intuition target. If the only things I have to fear are creature removal and Forces, I'll probably win anyway. So, let's look at the deck's problems and ways to solve them:

1) Combo
Can't actually be solved, ideas to improve this matchup are Chalice and Thoughtseize/Duress in the board.

2) Blood Moon
If it hits, you need Ray of Revelation to be in your hand or in your graveyard. If it's not there, you lost. You could still cast Burning Wish, but good luck finding a red enchantment removal. An idea might be to start playing basic forests and Tranquility in the Wishboard. It also might be a good reason to play Countryside Crusher: just cast him and win anyway.

3) Magus of the Moon
See 2), but Burning Wish targets are easier. Devastating Dreams comes to mind.

4) Back to Basics
See 2). Ray of Revelation shines here, because Back to Basics are usually backed up by Forces. Engineered Explosives also helps.

5) Extirpate
Removes Loam. Pull from Eternity is interesting, but quite narrow. However, there's only Chalice @ 1 left.

6) Leyline of the Void
Shuts down Loam and Crusher. You really need to play enchantment removal.

7) Chalice of the Void @ 2
No, Ancient Grudge is not an answer. Neither is Burning Wish. You might consider playing Engineered Explosives.

8) Yixlid Jailer
Jailer is seeing more and more play. Barbarin Ring / Keldon Megaliths can take care of him, so can Burning Wish.

Whenever you build the deck you should ask yourself first how you are going to answer those problems. For example, let's look at Joon's list:
1) 4 Chalice in the board. Obviously doesn't do that much.
2) 1st game scoop. 2nd game play Crusher and try winning on the back of a single creature = bad.
3) See 2)
4) See 2)
5) 4 Pull from Eternity in the board, 4 Intuitions main to fetch it, 4 Chalice in the board = good.
6) No answer, so let's just play Manland Aggro without Monasteries = bad.
7) See 6), but with Monasteries and Crushers = probably not that bad. But not good, either.
8) Intuitionable Megaliths, possibility to go Crusher+Manland-Aggro = quite good.

So 5) and 8) are good, 7) is acceptable and the rest is horrible. Go and test the list against Dragon Stompy / MUC / Faerie Stompy with sideboard B2B / a deck that draws into Leyline postboard / a deck that plays Blood Moon and you will have bad results. A deck that loses to combo is acceptable but a deck that loses to combo AND the ones listed above is not. I have yet to see a list for a "general meta" which includes answers for all these 8 questions without sacrificing consistency.

[Dark_Cynic87]

2) Blood Moon
If it hits, you need Ray of Revelation to be in your hand or in your graveyard. If it's not there, you lost. You could still cast Burning Wish, but good luck finding a red enchantment removal.

So when exactly did people stop playing Riftstone Portal in 43 lands?

Seems to me that Burning Wish into enchantment removal wouldn't be a big deal...

--DC

[Brehn]

You're right, I've totally forgotten about that. However, if you're not lucky enough to dredge the Portal, it requires Gamble/Intuition -> Portal, a way to discard Portal, then Burning Wish/Gamble/Intuition/lucky topdeck -> removal. I don't think you'll manage to do that consistently.

To prevent questions:

212.6e If an effect changes a land’s type to one or more of the basic land types, the land no longer has its old land type. It loses all abilities generated from its rules text and its old land types, and it gains the appropriate mana ability for each new basic land type. Note that this doesn’t remove any abilities that were granted to the land by other effects. Changing a land’s subtype doesn’t add or remove any types (such as creature) or supertypes (such as basic, legendary, and snow) the land may have. If a land gains one or more land types in addition to its own, it keeps its land types and rules text, and it gains the new land types and mana abilities.
So it works in any case. Had to look it up myself.

[Nightmare]

Has anyone begun testing Scapeshift in this deck? It has the ability to win you the game, tutor up whatever card you need (into play) make threshold for Manlands, and thin out all the garbage you absolutely do not want to draw. In short, it seems like it's a card worth testing.

[Brehn]

I haven't tested it, but looking at the card I'd say:

- Scapeshift might actually help you when the Loam engine is turned off by Leyline, Extirpate or Chalice. It's no engine, but it's a one-shot that is more powerful than one 10 Lands in play+Loam+Thicket-turn. The "Manland-aggro"-plan can be quite effective that way.
- Saying "tutor up whatever card you need" is just misleading. It won't do anything against those nasty enchantments, nor Magus.
- It can be Burning Wished for. Seriously, Burning Wish should get more attention.

Conclusion: Scapeshift has to be tested thoroughly against decks packing Loam-hate. If it wins games without Loam, it's worth an inclusion. Still, I can't see it being maindeck material.

[dragzz]

thin out all the garbage you absolutely do not want to draw.
How can scapeshift do this?

[Sigar]

I just started testing the deck, burn seems kinda hard, what's the plan against burn decks?

[Dissolution]

Generally, the same against Combo: 4x Chalice of the Void in the board.

At least, that's my solution. Zuran Orb is another to consider.
-T

[JazzMasterZero]

Using of Mox Diamond solves all troubles with B2B and Moons

[Muradin]

It does absolutely not solve all problems with those two cards. It gives you the possibility to cast a Burning Wish finding a solution for one of the two. But still you first of all have to draw the Burning wish and it mustn't be countered (In case of B2B). Just with a Mox diamond in play and some great mountains or tapped lands you will still be in a very bad position, even if you are able to cast all the useless Explorations and Manabonds in your hand then.

[JazzMasterZero]

It allows to cast Ray of Revelation with it's flashback.
+It allows to cast wish or LftL on 1-st turn
+much more good teches

[Ozymandias]

This isn't exactly super-secret tech, but wouldn't a good answer to a bunch of those problems be Seismic Assault? Because it's castable under the Moon effects, ignores graveyard hate, and is a serious threat because it can deal a ton of damage when 2/3rds of the cards in the deck are lands. Meanwhile, you can wish up some sort of random answer like Apocalypse.

[JazzMasterZero]

Assault can make ~2 damage per turn if you can't use LFTL

[Ozymandias]

Yeah, but you've also got all those extra lands in your hand that there's no real use playing under the Moon.

[exaltedgod]

So with all the cards people are talking about sideboarding or changing from the main deck, lets see a deck listing that proves to be more playable. Every deck has weaknesses so the point of pointing them out is just a bit stupid unless it happens to be in that persons meta. The origional seems fine but looks a bit lacking. I dont know it just might be me.

[Michael Keller]

Meanwhile, you can wish up some sort of random answer like Apocalypse.

That would be pretty random, and a pretty poor choice to Wish for. You'd remove your hand and all permanents from the game. Not good.

As far as conjuring up a Seismic Assault under Moon effects, it's certainly a fantastic choice. It allows you to knock off Magus to restore your mana while turning each land in your hand into a shock. Pretty solid with Life from the Loam and (preferably) artifact mana.

[Shawon]

If Keldon Megaliths makes the cut in 43land.dec, isn't Flame Jab superior in this deck? It's cheaper, faster, and less situational than Megaliths, and Flame Jab can stack itself in the same turn to kill creatures with >1 toughness. Need I say more?

EDIT:

Oh, for reference:

Flame Jab R (Eventide common)
Sorcery
Flame Jab deals 1 damage to target creature or player.
Retrace (You may play this card from your graveyard by discarding a land card in addition to paying its other costs.)

[Valtrix]

Well, this is what I can think of off the top of my head:

Cons
--You can't get it with mulch
--You can't put it into play with manabond
--You don't always want to discard land for 1 damage
--A bit more susceptible to graveyard hate
--The deck would no longer be "43" lands =P

Pros:
--Functions through moon effects
--Don't need hellbent (small factor)
--Can do more damage in a turn

I never really thought megaliths was good enough anyway...

[hi-val]

Retrace seems made for this deck. I think the way you combat Moon effects is through Riftstone Portal. You Gamble one of them away if possible and then Burning Wish for something to remove it like Hull Breach. ALTERNATELY, you can get Worm Harvest off the board and laugh at their moon effects when you make nine tokens every turn. Maybe Worm Harvest is playable in the maindeck, since it seems absolutely backbreaking. I'd go so far as to say that it's worth considering to the point where one might want to retool the deck and perhaps trim manlands with the consideration that The Worms will be getting there faster. It's also a good out to Extirpate if they nail your Loams, as it'll be making a decent amount of tokens.

[Illissius]

Everyone loves decklists, so how's this one look, as a proof of concept?

4 Exploration
4 Manabond
4 Burning Wish
4 Life from the Loam
3 Worm Harvest
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Riftstone Portal
4 Tranquil Thicket
4 Forgotten Cave
2 Barbarian Ring
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
4 Forest
SB: 4 Krosan Grip
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Gaea's Blessing
SB: 1 Gamble
SB: 1 Scapeshift
SB: 1 Devastating Dreams
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Reverent Silence
SB: 1 Toil to Renown

I went with Wish because Extirpate is a bitch, and Wishing for Scapeshift is multiple kinds of awesome. There's 14 sources of red, so you should be able to pull off Wish and Gamble on the same turn and not expose yourself more than you would by Wishing for Loam directly -- and you can also fetch, like, other cards from your deck. It's not so great if your opponent plays a Chalice at 1 rather than 2 like a genius, but I'd rather take that chance and get to play 33% more copies of Loam maindeck.

I am unsure if 16 sources of green mana is enough, especially with Worm Harvest. Would swapping Factories for Treetops be a very crazy idea?

[Zinch]

I have thought the same when I saw the "Wormmaker" but...

The Tabernacle with worm harvest??
If the deck goes on the direction of worm harvest, i think you have to cut the tabernacle


P.S.: My first post

[Nihil Credo]

The Tabernacle with worm harvest??
If the deck goes on the direction of worm harvest, i think you have to cut the tabernacle
If the deck only runs 1-2 Worm Harvests, then the best choice is probably to still run the monster that is Tabernacle and if necessary get rid of it with Wasteland and/or Ghost Quarter and/or Glacial Chasm and/or Crop Rotation and/or Legend rule and/or BWish->DDreams for 1.

[hi-val]

If the deck only runs 1-2 Worm Harvests, then the best choice is probably to still run the monster that is Tabernacle and if necessary get rid of it with Wasteland and/or Ghost Quarter and/or Glacial Chasm and/or Crop Rotation and/or Legend rule and/or BWish->DDreams for 1.

Exactly what I was thinking.

Against combo, there might be a worthwhile plan in making sure you have Savannahs and boarding in Gaddok Teeg.

[Illissius]

Right. If you have a ton of Worm tokens, you probably don't need Tabernacle and will win anyways; if you've locked your opponent down with Wastes, Quarters, and Tabernacle, then you'll just have to finish them off with Factories and Rings and eschew the Worms. But there are situations where Tabernacle will save your ass, and I'm guessing there are more of those than ones where the dissynergy between Tabernacle and Worm tokens costs you the game.

As for combo, I'm not sure. Do you stand a chance in hell even if you do board against them? I suspect this might be one of those cases where you're better off conceding the matchup and focusing your limited resources on games you can actually win.

[hi-val]

Some *really* preliminary testing shows me that Worms are really good against Threshold when you get those games where things are just grinding down. It seems that a lot of decks have problems with 4-5 worms every single turn. I'm not sure if 2 is the right number or even 1, but it's the kind of broken play you Mulch or dredge into and the other player has no response to. Aside from a quick EE, there's not a lot that Thresh can do against 9 worms hitting the board.

All that said, I'm still unsure of if this is win-more. It does allow a lot of room around things like Blood Moon when you have Rifty in the graveyard.

[Zinch]

In fact, the worm harvest and 2 riftstone portal are a good answer to a blood moon or a magus.
Now there's only the graveyard hate issue... what do you play in the SB against graveyard hate??

[hi-val]

In fact, the worm harvest and 2 riftstone portal are a good answer to a blood moon or a magus.
Now there's only the graveyard hate issue... what do you play in the SB against graveyard hate??

I'm wondering if you just sideboard in Burning Wishes against Crypts and things like that. I'm also wondering if you bring in Ray of Rev or Grudge to answer stuff. This deck reminds me of Dragon, in that you've got a good shot g1 but the match makes things a lot harder since graveyard hate comes in.

There's a possibility of some sort of sideboard transformation, or the previously-mentioned Seismic Assault (land's edge).

[Zinch]

Crypt is not a problem if you keep a cycling land in your hand and extirpate can be answered with a CotV of 1 or a wish...
The card that scares me is LotV... If they begin the game with one in play, you must draw a ray of revelation or a wish (drawing one card per turn is a lousy task...and it can be countered...).
Each other card can be answered well enough but LotV (I'm beggining to hate this card):

- CotV on 2: Worm harvest him to the face(remember you can dredge the lftl to "draw" 3 cards per turn) and boseiju from the board
- blood moon or magus: Worm harvest with a riftstone in the yard or wishing for an answer
- Crypt: simply keeping a cycling land in your hand
- extirpate: CotV on 1 or a wish
- meddling mage yixlid jailer: "barbarian ringing" it
- counterbalance: worms to the head!!! (and boseiju from the board if you want)

So this deck is more resilient than people believes (much more now with the inclusion of the worms!)

[i-never-smile]

Does Raven's Crime have any potential with the uphill combo match? I don't know how much black mana the deck can accumulate in the first couple of turns, but it seems like something worth considering. For those who are too lazy too look it up on gatherer:

Raven's Crime-B
Sorcery
Target player discards a card.
Retrace

It just seems to me like you could go nuts with this card. For example:

Turn 1 land-exploration-land-raven's crime. Turn 2 land-triple raven's crime. Combo just got owned by lands--4 discarded on turn 2.

Alternatively:
Turn 1 land-gamble for raven's crime. Turn 2 land-double raven's crime.

Or:
Turn 1 land-mox diamond-manabond-burning wish out a raven's crime. Turn 2 land-start discarding. This is a game 1 play, and the turn 2 discard should be able to slow down combo at least a little bit.

It's possible I have it all wrong and this card is terrible, and the combo matchup should just be scooped. But it seems worth testing, for sure, and I don't think it would be likely that combo would use Chalice @1 to stop it either--so it's going to do some damage, most likely.

[Shawon]

Does Raven's Crime have any potential with the uphill combo match? I don't know how much black mana the deck can accumulate in the first couple of turns, but it seems like something worth considering. For those who are too lazy too look it up on gatherer:

Raven's Crime-B
Sorcery
Target player discards a card.
Retrace

It just seems to me like you could go nuts with this card. For example:

Turn 1 land-exploration-land-raven's crime. Turn 2 land-triple raven's crime. Combo just got owned by lands--4 discarded on turn 2.

Alternatively:
Turn 1 land-gamble for raven's crime. Turn 2 land-double raven's crime.

Or:
Turn 1 land-mox diamond-manabond-burning wish out a raven's crime. Turn 2 land-start discarding. This is a game 1 play, and the turn 2 discard should be able to slow down combo at least a little bit.

It's possible I have it all wrong and this card is terrible, and the combo matchup should just be scooped. But it seems worth testing, for sure, and I don't think it would be likely that combo would use Chalice @1 to stop it either--so it's going to do some damage, most likely.

Last I checked, 43land.dec didn't splash for black, but I could be wrong there.

Anyhow, your scenario against combo decks seems impossible, not just unlikely. For a turn2 3xRaven's Crime, you would need BBB, and I doubt that even if 43land.dec were to splash black, it would probably include at most 2 lands with access to black, assuming it already splashes white for better cards such as Nantuko Monastery.

Also, for triple Raven's Crime, you would need 3 lands in your hand. So, 3 lands for retrace + 3 lands to add "BBB" + 1 Exploration + 1 Raven's Crime = 8 cards. By turn 2, that's all the cards you have, and since you don't have Life from the Loam in that hand, by turn 2, essentially you make them discard 4 cards, while you discard 4 cards yourself (Raven's Crime/3 lands).

Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather just go for a hand that has Manabond in it, and some lands such as Wasteland/Rishadan Port to screw up combo.

Your other scenario seems impossible, too, since 43land.dec surely doesn't run Mox Diamond, I mean Exploration/Manabond are way better for the deck.

If Raven's Crime were green, it would be worth testing, but it's black, and I highly doubt it's worth testing. I mean, if Worm Harvest was just 2BBB, it probably wouldn't be mentioned in this thread.

[Brehn]

Your other scenario seems impossible, too, since 43land.dec surely doesn't run Mox Diamond, I mean Exploration/Manabond are way better for the deck.

I wouldn't be too sure about that. Don't forget that Mox Diamond plays around every kind of nonbasic hate, which the deck is extremely vulnerable to. Obviously you don't cut Exploration or Manabond for it - you cut mana sources for it.

[Shawon]

That's true, didn't think about that.

[Zinch]

I personaly don't play moxes 'cause every card you put that is not a land diludes the deck's strategy.
At least are necesary 40 lands and with 4 manabonds, 4 explrations, 3-4 Lftl, 3-4 gamble, 0-4 b. wishes and 1-2 worm harvest there aren't that many free slots

Edit: Even less if you consider that I run one EE and one Academy ruins

[i-never-smile]

I agree that it dilutes the deck, but I'm talking about a matchup where you either dilute the deck or just scoop. How do you beat TES with 43 land? The consensus seems to be that the best way to beat TES is to run another deck. Obviously, this deck cannot beat any storm combo deck run by a competent pilot, so the deck must change in one way or another to adapt to the matchup. In this case, my idea is to have Raven's Crime X4 in the board to handle storm combo. With a land deck, you can mulligan aggressively into the discard spell itself, or into a Gamble for it, or into a Burning Wish for the 4th copy. That's a potential of 3+4+4=11 cards to mulligan into, in a deck full of mana sources (3 RC+4 Gamble+4 Wish). Alternatively, you have an option to run a full set of Raven's Crime and Burning Wish, which finds the gamble for the crime. That's 8 cards to mull to. Not that bad, either. Also, even if you're just using it to hit 2 cards a turn, it still sucks on the other hand where they're sculpting a strong hand and you just keep slamming them with discard.

As far as splashing is concerned, I find it amusing that a roughly 2/3 land deck has trouble splashing into a color. I definitely think that Mox Diamond dilutes the deck, but it's probably worth it to simultaneously splash into another color and play around nonbasic hate. I know you can work around Blood Moon effects and Back to Basics if you really try, but having Mox Diamond just seems to be such a pain reliever for those situations.

Moving on to practicality: Let's assume that you spend turn 1 building up with a G-costing enchantment. Turn 2, you should realistically have acess to 1-2 black mana, maybe more. If the colorbase is reworked, it's totally possible. If on turn 2 you start forcing discard, that's pressure on the combo deck. It's not going to directly just stop their combo, but it's proactive and they will see that there are 2 choices: continue getting hit by discard feuled by a loam engine, or combo off prematurely and potentially (or rather, probably) whiff. So even if you don't have BBB on turn 2 with a Raven's Crime and a Loam, just having a black mana or 2 and lands to pitch means enough discard over a couple of turns to just shut out the combo deck and win with manlands quickly.

I could be wrong; it's only my two cents. I just think that it's stupid not to test a potential monkey wrench like this, when it can't hurt to try it outside of tournaments. If anyone can give it a shot in testing and fire back feedback, I'd be interested to know how it goes.

[Zinch]

This deck won a tournament last weekend

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=18493

Maybe I was wrong with the moxes...

It seems a solid deck, but I like to have at least one answer to stupid enchantments (like solitary confinement o blood moon) in the maindeck... with the intuitions and the moxes I'd include one ray of revelation MD

Do you agree?

[arsenalpow]

The deck won because the solidarity player conceded his quarterfinal match in fear of facing landstill in the semifinals. This deck still has huge issues with combo that don't seem to be fixed yet.

[Zinch]

Well, then the deck would last second in the tournament... is not so bad...
In a meta (like mine) with little combo it's a viable deck

[Vrael]

This deck won a tournament last weekend

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=18493

Maybe I was wrong with the moxes...

It seems a solid deck, but I like to have at least one answer to stupid enchantments (like solitary confinement o blood moon) in the maindeck... with the intuitions and the moxes I'd include one ray of revelation MD

Do you agree?


You can play Engineered Explosives as a traget for intuition and play academy ruins for "multiple" EE mainboard ;).So with Intuition you can obv search 1 acdemy ruins,1 life from the loam, 1 Engineered Explosives.

[Guy I Don't Know]

i found crop rotation good for combo, getting glacial chasm or tabernacle against storm. Ive also used leyline and chalice against the other forms of combo

[Zinch]

Sadly, if I'm not wrong, glacial chasm won't work against tendrils since it deals no damage, it causes lose of life...

But is a good solution against Ichorid and EtW until you found the Tabernacle (I don't use crop rotations, but maybe I could take them in the SB...)

[Guy I Don't Know]

it works versus breakfast

[i-never-smile]

What's the point of running Crop Rotation at all when you could just add more Gambles? They virtually do the same thing for finding lands, except they also dig up Loam (which is way more important). Now, if you have a list where you feel like Crop Rotation strengthens it, then by all means post it. And post some situations with detailed explanation as to why Crop Rotation is better than X card to run for tutoring power. That would be much more convincing to me than "i found (it) great for combo."

[rureddy31]

I would like to chip in. As the last person to do relatively well with this deck, I'd like to give you some advice. Don't get fancy. Stick with the core MDs. Cards like Scapeshift, Crop Rotation and Crucible sound cool, but are win more cards. They are not necessary. It may sound weird, but this isn't a late game deck. It builds early, or it will lose. Period.

The SB is open for changes, but EEs, Chalices, and a mix of Grudges and Ray should probably be present. Firebolt is a really good addition to deal with Magus.

I hope some people decide to play 43 Land at GenCon. I unfortuantely will not be there to defend my second place finish from last year. Good luck to all.

[Guy I Don't Know]

If abandoned this deck because of blood moon effects to prevalent in my meta, but I use to have crop rotation in the sideboard versus combo decks, mainly breakfast and ETW.

If you didn't know, gamble and crop rotation are two completely cards (doh who woulda thunk it>!?!?!)

see gamble is red, and crop rotation is green
gamble is a sorcery and crop rotation is an instant

First of all, I did not splash red, so if you aren't playing red, well look-e here, crop rotation is the same color as the rest of the deck.

Second of all, crop rotation is a sideboard card, specifically for combo matches.

Third of all, crop rotation is an instant!

That means a game could go someting like this:

you keep a hand and lead with a green source exploration, green source, they go, lots of mana belcher activate. in response you can play crop rotation and get glacial chasm so you don't die.

second scenario:
they make a lot of etw, you lose unless you can get rid of them. you find crop rotation and get tabernacle so their army is greatly reduced.

third scenario, and a reason that crop rotation could be extremely helpful:

They breakfast play uses abeyance to shut off maze of ith, in response you play crop rotation getting glacial chasm effectively countering their abeyance because they can't kill you this turn.


What's the point of running Crop Rotation at all when you could just add more Gambles? They virtually do the same thing for finding lands, except they also dig up Loam (which is way more important).

Crop rotation is a sideboard card for mostly fast combo. In these matchups you die in the first three turns a lot, your whole goal is to just survive. In these matchups, Life from the loam is the worst, in fact i would suggest sideboarding them out versus things like belcher, because they will barely ever come in handy. So, if Gamble and Crop Rotation virtually do the same thing (but gamble can get loam which you sided out) and one is instant speed, and on color why wouldn't you play that over a card you would have to splash?

As a disclaimer: I am not saying crop rotation is the shiz. I am saying that I used it in my sideboard before effectively against combo, probably not the same combo running around now a days, but there are varying metas and some meta out there, people may be playing belcher or breakfast

[dahcmai]

I had to go back to the Riftstone Portal and Ray of Revalation tech to get out of all the Blood Moon effects in my area. It works decently though.

I think as long as you actually have Mox diamonds to keep the Loam going to search those up, you're ok.


I'm not big on the new Worm card from Eventide though. It's not bad, but I prefer the old way of using Roar over it. It's the speed thing.

[Zinch]

At first I expected a lot from worm harvest... but after a little playtest (I don't have time to 'test more) I'm not sure it's needed. It only shines against a magus of the moon with a rifstone in the 'yard and only if they don't find a finisher before... I'd cut they entirely I think

Althought,the idea of crop rotation off the board is liking me more and more... like Guy I don't konw has said is good against some kind of combo and this deck needs this help, but the issue is finding room in the board...

Guy I don't know, what's your sideboard like??
Mine is something like this:

3 zuran orb
4 chalice of the void
1 ray of revelation
1 ancient grudge
3 krosan grip
1 glacial chasm
2 tormod's crypt (I have intuitions and one academy ruins in the MD)

What do you think about it??

[rureddy31]

I don't know if that was directed at me...

But either way, this is my board. First off, I don't run blue because I feel it is an unecessary strain on the mana base. I wouldn't cut red or green for it, and the monastery's are actually needed.

Anyhow, here is the board I would bring to GenCon if I were to go:

4x Chalice of the Void
3x Engineered Explosives
3x Firebolt
3x Ancient Grudge
2x Ray of Revelation

Firebolts are my way of saying I don't want to lose to Magus of the Moon. This card could easily be changed. Pithing Needles are a consideration, so is Zuran Orb and Tormod's Crypt.

[rureddy31]

Here's the thing I think you seem to miss about Crop Rotation. Number one, glacial chasm only affects damage if I recall correctly, so you're still vulnerable to tendrils. Secondly, in your pretty little world, Crop Rotation will not always be an answer. And more often then not, it won't provide a permanent solution to the combo problem. There is little you can do vs. combo, and playing bad lands that are situational (like Chasm) only hurts your boarding strategy vs. other decks. Gamble is just better all around, and that's what matters.

[MikeC3700]

Was wondering if anyone could post the most up to date decklist for this? Was thinking of trying it out, but the list I got was from almost 2 years ago.

[Aznopium]

Was wondering if anyone could post the most up to date decklist for this? Was thinking of trying it out, but the list I got was from almost 2 years ago.


This deck won a tournament last weekend

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=18493



all you needed to do was look at the previous page in the thread. :)
pretty solid/standard build of the deck. Also helps that he is a good player as well.

[Rush]

Two quick questions:
First, how does the deck deal with Red decks running 8 Moons?
Second, has anyone tried using Academy Ruins w/ Mindslaver?

[MikeC3700]

all you needed to do was look at the previous page in the thread. :)
pretty solid/standard build of the deck. Also helps that he is a good player as well.

lol, thanks, I'm not sure how I missed that when I was reading over the posts. :laugh:

[Shawon]

Two quick questions:
First, how does the deck deal with Red decks running 8 Moons?


Well, assuming we're talking about Owen's deck, it simply scoops to Moons game 1. Games 2 and 3 you bring in Ray and Grip, and Firebolt, too against Magus. Mox Diamond helps provide mana to operate Loam under Blood Moon effects, so you can keep dredging and hopefully get Ray or Firebolt in the bin and flashback away.


Second, has anyone tried using Academy Ruins w/ Mindslaver?

Way too slow for the deck. Also, unless you run Riftstone Portal, amassing ten mana would be difficult since Owen's deck runs Tabernacle, Maze of Ith, and Glacial Clasm.

[MikeC3700]

k, it's been too long since I've played this format, but what's the CoV's used for in the sideboard? (IE what do you use them against?)

[Goaswerfraiejen]

k, it's been too long since I've played this format, but what's the CoV's used for in the sideboard? (IE what do you use them against?)

Combo's mana acceleration, mostly.

[kaasblokje]

naturally chalise in SB but i have been satisfied of it it slows combo down whitch can make the difference.

[Rush]

Way too slow for the deck. Also, unless you run Riftstone Portal, amassing ten mana would be difficult since Owen's deck runs Tabernacle, Maze of Ith, and Glacial Clasm.

I played this deck for quite some time, and I found myself in many games where I had ample mana to pull off that combo.

Another question: What is everyone's opinion of Countryside Crusher? I've only read positive things on this thread about him, but I haven't seen many people include him in their list.

[Valtrix]

I don't know about him. He seems like he could do some good, but only if you draw him. You're not really getting him out of your yard (Unless you play stronghold, which seems bad in this deck), so he's dead there. Chances are he'll probably die to removal anyway if you do get him, since you're running only manlands for other creatures. Plus, if you have him with a manabond you either slow yourself down to hold onto him, or make him dead otherwise. Really, he just fights moon effects best. I don't think I'd run him in the maindeck because he doesn't seem to work all that well, unless you start with him/draw him soon without loam.

[MULocke]

I don't know about him. He seems like he could do some good, but only if you draw him. You're not really getting him out of your yard (Unless you play stronghold, which seems bad in this deck), so he's dead there. Chances are he'll probably die to removal anyway if you do get him, since you're running only manlands for other creatures. Plus, if you have him with a manabond you either slow yourself down to hold onto him, or make him dead otherwise. Really, he just fights moon effects best. I don't think I'd run him in the maindeck because he doesn't seem to work all that well, unless you start with him/draw him soon without loam.

As far as I know, Crusher was only intended for the sb as a solution to moon effects and the like. I'm considering building the deck, but the amount of dragon stompy I see means I would need to find a reliable solution to moon effects, and crusher seems perfect. They run basically no removal, he's huge, and he gets cast under moon.

[Rush]

I guess I should have been a little more specific. I meant that in conjunction with my first post, questioning about the Moon hate. I think he would be a good solution for the problem, on top of having Ray.

[zuzy]

Hallo,

I have a few questions to the SB cards:

1. Crusher - I understand, that you can put him in the game, when there are Moon efects. But is he really that strong without Trample? It can be alwaych chumpblocked by another creature. Has anybody tried it?

2. Moon efects solution - I am trying in my SB Nevinyrral´s Disk. It kills all his board. And normally Dragon Stompy is trying to have Hellbend, so he will be without cards and permanents (except lands). The second thing I have in MD is Riftstone Portal, which is really fine againts that kind of deck. The only bad thing about Disk is, that it can´t be flashbacked.

3. Burt decks - In the Owen´s deck, there is nothing against Burn Deck except Nomad Stadium. Is it enought?

4. Combo decks - It is really hard machup, but Chalice for 1 are really perfect. In the case of Owens deck you can have also some Arcane Laboratory in SB? Good idea?

Thank you for your answers.

ZUZY

[Rush]

I was just curious because I ran this deck for a long time and always got frustrated whenever I saw a Moon effect. Is it possible to include even just a few basic Forests? I ran 3-4 in my version because Wasteland + Crucible was also usually game.

@zuzy: I see your point. Also, with Pit Dragon in play, it would be game if that's your solution. As for Burn decks, Chalice also pwns them, but I personally used to play Genju of the Fields in my side for such an event, since you can keep activating it and it's ability stacks.

[georgjorge]

Now I don't know if you run black, or if you can generate five mana consistently. But the thought of casting this card from Alara in 43 Lands is hilarious...

Ad Nauseum 3BB

Instant
Reveal the top card of your library and put that card into your hand. You lose life equal to its converted mana cost. You may repeat this process any number of times.

[moOnsteak]

^
Fully agree, it also give possibilities to run at least one Chalice of The Void and/or Engineered Explosived maindeck to avoid price of progress or something like that. .
1st turn mana bound to get 5 mana with 2B
2nd turn to get all your library in your hand and put them into play via mana bound sounds amazing. .

[Benie Bederios]

^
Fully agree, it also give possibilities to run at least one Chalice of The Void and/or Engineered Explosived maindeck to avoid price of progress or something like that. .
1st turn mana bound to get 5 mana with 2B
2nd turn to get all your library in your hand and put them into play via mana bound sounds amazing. .

Uhm how do you make sure you topdeck the card?? Without tutors you have to play it 4 times... thats already 20 damage. So you can't draw your complete deck. It's a good card and might fit in this deck, but it's not a simple as -4 xxx +4 that card.

BB