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Bryant Cook
08-14-2006, 02:44 PM
Since the splitting of the Gro/Threshold threads, there hasn't been a place to discuss what Mr.Nightmare and I have been working on. Four color Gro, we don't mean U/G/r/w. No, we mean U/G/b/x, the 4th color is different for the both of us. Some people prefer red some people prefer white, but none the less the deck's shell is what makes this version of Gro one of the greatest in my opinion.

General History
Back in the earlier days of gro, you would see cards such as Gush and Winter orb in the maindeck. The deck played almost completely differently also, trying to boost it's Quirion Dryad as fast as possible. Sometimes forgetting about it's controlish elements. This version of the deck slowly evolved into Geddon-Gro, This evolution of the deck wasn't around for very long but it was still around long enough to change the metagame. The deck cut WinterOrb and went for the fastest win possible, it's aim was to play as many men as possible then cast Armageddon. Giving your Werebears threshold. The deck slowly died after this because you could no longer play Gush for insane card advantage, and snyergy.
Then a deck called GAT came around Gro-a-Tog, this deck focused around controlish element's as well as it's beatdown elements. Late-game Psychatog, and early game Dryad simple enough? I think not. The deck lacked focus and tapped out to often leaving it's controlish elements useless.

Then back a few years ago "The Virginians" started working on an already existing Arch-type of "Super-Gro" The deck still aimed to make a giant Dryad and gain alot of card advantage. Cards like WinterOrb didn't seem so popular at this point. But cards like Nimble Mongoose had come into play around this time, but mostly seen in sideboards. Big Arse 2 came around and a different version of Gro won it. This version opted to cut Dryad for Meddling Mage, so that it had more control elements than aggro. Soon many versions opted to cut Quirion Dryad for other creatures such as Fledling Dragon and Mystic Enforcer. The deck soon developed into Not Quite Gro, which is our current DTB. Notice a few things about the evolution of Gro/Threshold not many things stay within the MD. The only thing that stayed in the deck was Werebear. The deck was always changing and is always changing and I believe the version In this thread is going to be the next evolution.

Decklists
13th Place at Kadilak's Dual Land Draft 2
Adam Barnello(Mr. Nightmare) UGbw Gro, 4-2

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Portent
2 Predict
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
4 Meddling Mage
4 Werebear
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Dark Confidant
1 Mystic Enforcer
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Island
SB:
2 Pithing Needle
2 Naturalize
2 Worship
2 Tividar's Crusade
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
1 Mystic Enforcer
2 Armageddon


16th Place at Kadilak's Dual Land Draft 2
Bryant Cook(Wastedlife) UGrb Gro, 4-2

4 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Fledgling Dragon
4 Werebear
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Dark Confidant
4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
4 Predict
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
2 Ghastly Demise
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
SB:
4 Pyroclasm
3 Pithing Needle
2 Withered Wretch
2 Phyrexian Furnace
2 Naturalize
2 Winter Orb

UPDATED LIST
8/23/06
"The Darkside of The Force"

4 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Polluted Delta
1 Island

1 Fledgling Dragon
4 Werebear
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Dark Confidant

4 Predict
4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Magma Jet
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
2 Ghastly Demise

How This Came To Be
Mr.Nightmare ran a 4c version at a tournament basically as a joke. Afterward's I realized how dumb Dark Confidant is in the deck with more scry elements. Which in my opinion black Gro/Threshold lacks. I can't speak upon Nightmares half on this so I'll give you my thoughts. I was testing with -3 Fire/ice + 3 Dark confidant in my basic U/G/r list, I wasn't happy the deck still lacked a way of killing fatties. So I considered Vendetta tested it, I gave it a meh, if I can't find something better. So I dug through the U/G/b Gro thread and noticed they were All playing Ghastly Demise, I tested it loved it's slot. The only downside was that it can't target Black creatures. But then again the format doesn't have many fat black men that my burn is out of range from. I debated what to cut I finally decided 2 Ghastly Demise over 1 Fledling Dragon and the last Fire/ice. I often think about cutting the final Fledling Dragon for a third Ghastly Demise then side against it because a fattie is important to threshold.

Deck Breakdown

ManaBase

The mana base is generally decided by the rest of the deck. Basics are nessesary, I'd myself recommend atleast 2 basic islands. Fetchlands are very useful but too many mess-up Predict. Although they are very good with Brainstorm. Many list run anywhere between 5-8. Lists vary in how many lands are played due to the amount of 1cc cantrips and such. The accepted amount of lands is anywhere between 16-19, most people run 17-18.

The Draw Engine

Brainstorm- This card has snyergy with much of the deck, infact it has snyergy with the format. Being 1.5's Ancestral Recall, with Fetchlands, Scry effect's, and Predict. You can often choose not to draw what you put back, which is a nice thing about the draw engine of Gro. This card dig's the lowest of all the canrip's in gro but it's too good not to consider/run.
Serum Visions This card digs 4 cards into your library while trying to find a land/answer which can be very benefical. It also set's up Predict, gives you better card selection, as well as a quick cantrip to fill your yard for Threshold.
Portent- I'm honestly not a fan of portent, but Mr. Nightmare likes it. The card dig's 5 cards deep into your library finding answers/threats/ or land. It's cantrip effect happens at the beginning of the next upkeep which is always you're oppenents unless you magically cast Time Walk.
Predict- The deck's best cantrip if you ask me. It almost always draws you 2 cards at INSTANT speed. Not to mention half the cards in the deck are built around it. With Brainstorm, Serum Visions, Portent, Magma jet why not run it? People opt to play Mental Note in this slot I highly reccomend against it, it does the same thing as Mental Note except without cute combat tricks of 4 card's it gives you 3 then 4 if you can cast the second card you draw. Cards in hand > cards in yard.
Dark Confidant- Since he is a creature he is with the creature section although he is apart of the draw engine.

The Counterspells

Force of Will- This card requires atleast 16 blue cards to run. It's a free counterspell which means you are free to tap out/cast creatures ect. I mean it's Force of Will a staple to our format.
Daze- Another free counterspell; this card hurts your tempo a tiny bit, but is worth the inclusion. Often giving you the edge you need to finish off a player or a second turn counterspell. Also deals with turn 1 Goblin Lackey.
Counterspell-This card requires UU, which can be annoying. But it's a hard counter, which means no card disadvantage/tempo lost which is worth the inclusion into the deck.

Creatures

Werebear- This is a 1G, Tap-> Add a Green for a 1/1. But with this cool ability called Threshold (7 or more cards in graveyard) He becomes a 1G for a 4/4, that hardly ever taps for a G. He's an undercosted fattie who happens to be bigger than the format.
Nimble Mongoose- An untargetable 3/3 for a G that needs Threshold, I guess... 'Nough said.
Meddling Mage- Target spell can't be played. With a body is fairly good last time I heard. It would be the reason to run white.
Fledgling Dragon/Mystic Enforcer- One gets the job done. Unlike other Threshold builds if you cast this guy who you have to be willing to protect him. Because there's not another you can mize later. A fattie is nessesary, because evasion often decides who will win/lose games alot of the time. Evasion with a 6/6 or 5/5 firebreather will often race the 2/1 shadow.
Dark Confidant- This man is crazy good, if he stays on the table the card advantage he causes will often leave you massacre'ing you're opponent. The great thing is he often saves games, he's not a winmore card. Creating card advantage off a permanent seems unnatural, a large portion of you're opponents will keep him alive, thinking he's more harm than help. With the large amount of Scry effects and Brainstorm/Portent this guy hardly ever deals you damage. Also with the deck's mana curve being so low be might as well be a beating Phrexian arena.

Removal

Swords to Plowshares- Best creature removal card in the game.
Lightning Bolt- Deals 3 damage for a R at instant speed. Can be thrown at the dome. Makes a quicker clock on you're opponent when assuming the aggro role.
Ghastly Demise- Blacks Swords to Plowshares minus the life gain. Only problem with this card is that it says "non-black", But when backed with Lightning bolt and Magma jet, possibly swords. It's a powerhouse.
Magma Jet- 2 damage is a meh, for 1R. But it's "Scry" effect is why it's very worthy of it's conclusion over fire/ice. It's another set-up card with predict which is huge, while killing a man. Like Lightning Bolt it goes to the dome when assuming the aggro role.

The Sideboard

Pyroclasm- Very good against goblins, 1R Wrath of God target opponent. It reads against them, this would be the main reason to play red. It's also very good against the randomness that legacy has, a very versatile card.
Tividar's Crusade- Good against goblins. Not versatile at all.
Pithing Needle- Great against the format, hits evertything from equipment, graveyard hate cards, Survival, Vial, and Lands of all sorts.
Phyrexian Furnace- My choice of graveyard hate, keeps threshold down to size while being good against Survival variants.
Winter Orb/Armageddon- Keeping other control decks down on land while you smash them, they can also be boarded in against solidarity for dead cards.
Worship- A lock with Nimble Mongoose out. Stops alot of aggro decks cold.
Naturalize- Need I say more?
Blue Elemental Blast/Hydroblast- Deals with Goblin Lackey, also deals with randomness, another versatile card.
Mystic Enforcer- Not very sure on this slot in the SB, but I can't blame him for wanting the second fattie.
Withered Wretch- Retardedly good graveyard hate, it's a re-useable Tormod's crypt.

Match-ups
I will be speaking in terms of generalizations because the differance between builds and deck differences.

Goblins- Very favorable. The key to winning this match-up is keeping board dominance. Making sure that lackey doesn't hit and ringleader doesn't go off. Your creatures are bigger knowing when to swing, when to stay back can make all the differance. If you can deal with warchief, he becomes rather annoying after awhile. After SB, your match-up gets about 10x better with Pyroclasm and Tividar's Crusade. After this if you open Pyroclasm/Crusade with lands, you have to decide how big you're balls are. Letting lackey hit can be gamebreaking if you're just going to wrath them. I often let lackey hit me since 1R is alot easyier to cast than 1ww.
Solidarity-Favorable. The key to this match-up is putting a clock on them. Then back you're clock up by saving up counterspells. Let Tide resolve depending on the situation and hand. Then use your counterspells. Repeat game 2.
DeadGuy/Red Death-About even, maybe in our favor. Nimble Mongoose is huge in this match-up. It's hard describing how to play this match-up but try and be the control player. Keep dominace while playing threats, which makes them waste answers. Sb gets better with pithing needle.
Rifter- About even. Don't let humilty hit and play one man at a time. Use your counterspells very carefully not everything they cast is game breaking remember that. Outdrawing them is also a very good idea, because it leads to you having more creatures and counters than they have removal. Sb in pithing needle, naturalize, and I would cut 2x Magma jet for 2 Pyroclasm.

Nightmare
08-14-2006, 03:19 PM
I suppose if we're going to discuss it, I can throw my side of things into the ring.

Originally, I was looking at different options to run with Gro, because (and I'll be completely honest here) I sent my foil Predicts out in the mail to get signed. I ran Mental Note again for a few days, and hated it. I know a lot of people love how fast it reaches Threshold, but it does nothing for you in terms of library manipulation and card selection. Too often I've seen it dump cards into the yard that later become a unavailable when you want them. My list with Predict ran a full suite of 12 cantrips aside from Predict, including Portent. Because of all this manipulation, I realized I could virtually always know the top card of my library.

Counterbalance was spoiled. This immediately got me thinking. I was ready to find a place for the card in this deck, but soon decided I wanted SDT, and with it, Dark Confidant. Turns out Top sucks in a deck like Gro where every mana you have is a precious commodity, and you really can't afford to use it in response to every spell your opponent plays. The library manipulation did, however suit the needs for Bob quite well. I knew there was potential here, as one of our meta's Gro players, Brushwagg, is an outspoken proponent of the black splash in Gro. I tried him out, straight up replacing Predict with him. It was a machine. I outdrew evryone in the mirror, and Bob quickly became the deck's hero. I found with the additional draw, it wasn't necessary for me to have Thresh on turn 3, since I had a much easier time controlling the game until I did reach thresh. I wanted a little more assurance, so I went to a 2/2 split on Portent and Predict for the D4D. Running 4 colors ended up leaving a big target on my manabase, but I guessed I wouldn't see many Wastelands on the opposing side, and I guessed correct. In a meta with more hate for nonbasics, leave the 4th color at home.

I'm actually fairly unhappy with the way my build turned out, particularly the sideboard, I didn't put a whole lot of thought into it. Tividar's Crusade was a mistake, and should have been Engineered Plague. I would consider cutting Predict for the additional removal of 2x Ghastly Demise, although that seems debateable, since as of now you have the ability to use USea as a Lotus Petal when necessary without issue. I want to cut one land from the manabase, as well, since I found myself flooded on more than one occasion throughout the day. The Blue Blasts and Worship ended up being fairly weak for me throughout the day as well, which I attribute to me not seeing a single Goblin on the other side all day. Bryant forgot to mention it, but I ran Trygon Predator as a 2 of in the board as well, and it was unimpressive at best. Rebuilding the deck from the ground up, here's what I see as the better build for an open meta:

Witch-Maw Threshold
As suggested by Adam Barnello(Mr. Nightmare)

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Portent
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Pithing Needle
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
3 Meddling Mage
4 Werebear
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Dark Confidant
1 Mystic Enforcer
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Island
SB:
1 Pithing Needle
2 Naturalize
2 Engineered Plague
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
1 Mystic Enforcer
3 Armageddon
2 Tormod's Crypt

After August 20th, Counterbalance could be re-examined as a potential replacement for Counterspell in the deck. I also believe that Jotun Grunt should become a staple in the sideboard for the mirror match as well as other yard intensive matchups such as IGG, Sal-game and Survival.

Evil Roopey
08-14-2006, 04:44 PM
Damnit, I came up with this like 2 months ago but you guys beat mne to the punch.

I like the lists a lot.

Bardo
08-14-2006, 05:19 PM
Damnit, I came up with this like 2 months ago but you guys beat mne to the punch.

I like the lists a lot.

I beat (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=28507.0) you both. ;)

(edit - here's one from January (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=26798.msg398779#msg398779).)

Citrus-God
08-14-2006, 09:13 PM
I would also like to mention this is the reason why this deck will have a strong Late-Game. I will strongly support the evolution to this deck, as I believe Confidant is the

MattH
08-14-2006, 11:17 PM
I would also like to mention this is the reason why this deck will have a strong Late-Game. I will strongly support the evolution to this deck, as I believe Confidant is the
Find out on the next exciting installment of ANTI-AMERICAN4621 RADIO THEATER.

Brushwagg
08-15-2006, 12:44 AM
The real truth is they hated losing to me. LOL!!!! ;) It took them long enough to really see why I like the Black splash so much, lots and lots of card drawing.

I too have been looking at the 4th color, but I'm not sold on it. I've put a few list together and it almost always comes down too me adding Magma Jet or Bolt to Black Gro. I really can't stand Predict, so many times it's dead. That's pretty much why I run Night's Whisper with Mental Note.

@Mr. Nightmare:Your list is looking really scary now. Altered or whatevertheyarecallingthemselvesthisweek, need to get the gaming area back up so I can see this thing in action.

Nightmare
08-15-2006, 01:34 PM
I beat (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=28507.0) you both. ;)

(edit - here's one from January (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=26798.msg398779#msg398779).)
If you noticed, I savagely stole the name from you. I'm aware this isn't the first list ever.

Phantom
08-15-2006, 01:56 PM
Any thought to running Vindicate in the version that splashes white? At the very least it's a more versitile Disenchant in the board.

Also, I always thought Night's Whisper was the shit in black gro. Any reason why you're not running it?

Nightmare
08-15-2006, 02:30 PM
Any thought to running Vindicate in the version that splashes white? At the very least it's a more versitile Disenchant in the board.My list currently runs 17 land, and very, very rarely can afford to use 3 mana of the 2 off-colors, particularly for removal. I have not personally tested it, but I'm not really sold on the idea.


Also, I always thought Night's Whisper was the shit in black gro. Any reason why you're not running it?Because with Confidant, Portent is better. You only have room for 12 cantrips, really, and although Whisper is +1 card, that's all it is. I really require a bit more from the draw spells, which is why I've opted for additional manipulation over raw drawing power.

jazzykat
08-15-2006, 04:05 PM
So you guys are using confidants, which is real cool if he stays out. He also makes any spot creature removal they have useful, regardless of what it is as opposed to:

Nimble Mongoose: Spot removal just doesn't work.

Werebear: StP and all the black spot removal works except Darkblast, -1/-1 etc. (once threshold is attainted), but it takes 2 pieces of burn or a blocker/attacker and a burn spell to take him down once threshold is attainted.

Fledgling Dragon:StP and all the black spot removal works except Darkblast, -1/-1 etc. (once threshold is attainted), but it takes 2 pieces of burn or a blocker/attacker and a burn spell to take him down once threshold is attainted.

Is he really worth it?

Nightmare
08-15-2006, 04:27 PM
Is he really worth it?Yes. See every other deck that has Confidant in it for reasons why. I'm not going to get into a long discussion here about virtual/actual card advantage. Your other creatures are good at swinging. If they waste removal on Bob, they don't use it on Werebear.

Brushwagg
08-15-2006, 08:42 PM
I find alot of people fear Bob, and they should. He's a "permacantrip". Bob is singlehandly the reason I won some games that I shouldn't have, just beacuse he got me the extra cards.

So is Bob worth it?? HELL YA!! Extra cards >>>>>>>>>>> then a little life loss. I do find though more and more people removing Bob from play before he becomes a problem. When I first started playing him most people left him alone thinking I was going to kill myself and got beat down.

@Night's Whisper:I really do like this card over Predict. It's one of the reasons, that when I write down a 4 color list it looks like I just added Magma Jet to Black Gro.

Citrus-God
08-16-2006, 12:23 PM
That seems to be the only thing they wanna S2P instead of a Bear. And against Combo, you will never run of out of fuel.

Ewokslayer
08-16-2006, 12:52 PM
Is there a reason people in Syracuse run 61 card decks?
We were joking when we said that was Anti-Solidarity tech.

Bryant Cook
08-16-2006, 01:02 PM
Is there a reason people in Syracuse run 61 card decks?
We were joking when we said that was Anti-Solidarity tech.
Is there a reason not to? It allows you to fit that extra card you don't want to cut anything for. It does't hurt anything and it bothers people. Why not? Last time I checked Gro beat Solidarity unless you're name is Michael Herbig.

Ewokslayer
08-16-2006, 01:21 PM
Is there a reason not to? It allows you to fit that extra card you don't want to cut anything for. It does't hurt anything and it bothers people. Why not? Last time I checked Gro beat Solidarity unless you're name is Michael Herbig.

61 card decks were discussed here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3816&page=2)

It only bothers people because it is a mistake. To suggest decklists with an obvious mistake in them is silly as generally the first response is drop down to 60 cards and make your deck better. Just because you don't want to cut a card or don't know what card to cut doesn't mean you should in fact not make that cut.

Think of your deck as your dog. That 61st card is a turd that is caught in the dog's fur. It doesn't truly hurt the dog but it certainly makes it less attractive. Be a responsible owner and remove the turd before your dog smears it all over the carpet or worse, eats it out of its fur and then vomits it back up.
SO, in short, decks with more than 60 cards are dogs vomiting up their feces.

Lanfeng
08-17-2006, 09:45 AM
just wondering, are you gonna be brainstorming on your upkeep to keep bob from topping a force or does the lava axe to the dome not matter?

cause I've had people tell me I'm a tard for having force and bob in the same deck

Obfuscate Freely
08-17-2006, 11:55 AM
just wondering, are you gonna be brainstorming on your upkeep to keep bob from topping a force or does the lava axe to the dome not matter?

cause I've had people tell me I'm a tard for having force and bob in the same deck
The average casting cost of cards in the deck is about 1.267, which is plenty low enough to play Bob. The fact that Force (or an Enforcer) will come up every once in a while is balanced out by how cheap everything else in the deck is.

Of course, using the manipulation spells to keep Bob's pain to a minimum is usually a good idea, at least against opponents that are likely to put pressure on your life total. However, with such a low average cc, Bob would be perfectly fine in this deck even if there were no deck stacking effects.

Nightmare
08-17-2006, 12:03 PM
61 card decks were discussed here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3816&page=2)

It only bothers people because it is a mistake. To suggest decklists with an obvious mistake in them is silly as generally the first response is drop down to 60 cards and make your deck better. Just because you don't want to cut a card or don't know what card to cut doesn't mean you should in fact not make that cut.

Think of your deck as your dog. That 61st card is a turd that is caught in the dog's fur. It doesn't truly hurt the dog but it certainly makes it less attractive. Be a responsible owner and remove the turd before your dog smears it all over the carpet or worse, eats it out of its fur and then vomits it back up.
SO, in short, decks with more than 60 cards are dogs vomiting up their feces.The objectively "worst" card in my build is the 4th Meddling Mage. I didn't realize my list was back up to 61, I thought I had cut the last card. List updated accordingly.

@ Lanfeng - There are 11 spells in the deck that read "Set up your next 2 draws in the order you want them." If you see a Force inside that, put it on the bottom so Confidant doesn't smash you.

Citrus-God
08-23-2006, 06:19 AM
just wondering, are you gonna be brainstorming on your upkeep to keep bob from topping a force or does the lava axe to the dome not matter?

cause I've had people tell me I'm a tard for having force and bob in the same deck

Just let me point out in the game of Magic, there are three types of players at serious 1.5 tournaments...

The ignorant people who havent shaved in months (even years), are ignorant about card choices, think that they have to play the best deck always, suck at the game, be extrememly arrogant, and will probably never get a girl... ever. But does their mom count?


Then there are people like us; People who beat Goblins and people who play Goblins.

But seriously, the point is, even if you hit a FoW, it really shouldnt matter. And havent your friends learned about the sheer power of Necropotence? I expect them to be terrible players, because the only time you should be bitching about Bob is when your opponent either

1. Swords him
2. Fanatic him
3. Bolt him
4. Or anything that kills Bob, like Darkblast...

Bryant Cook
08-23-2006, 10:15 AM
There's an edge to playing 4c gro that most people don't see and that is, you have reach. The deck can do ridiculous things when you need it to, BOB flipping a bolt and drawing another, or those extra swords in ghastly demise. There's obviously more but I'm not going to list everything, the main advantage of 4c gro over 3c is Dark Confidant, he is the reason we splash black. Him being a psuedo cantrip, card drawing machine, making our draw engine 10x better. I've had a hard time find a Sb I personally like, I've never been a fan of Crypt, I've always liked furnace but lately I've come to the conclusion, "Why sideboard grave hate, when you can just win?" I want versatile cards in my Sb. You don't need to use graveyard hate to beat Gro. I want to be able to side almost everything in, in a large tournament. All the sideboard's I've been using I haven't been happy with. Anywho, I updated the list on the main page there's a few differances. You'll notice there's only 60 cards, I don't see a differance but whatever. I don't want to look like a dog with shit in my fur.

Ewokslayer
08-23-2006, 10:58 AM
Anywho, I updated the list on the main page there's a few differances. You'll notice there's only 60 cards, I don't see a differance but whatever. I don't want to look like a dog with shit in my fur.

The objectively "worst" card in my build is the 4th Meddling Mage. I didn't realize my list was back up to 61, I thought I had cut the last card. List updated accordingly.
*sniff* I am just so proud at this moment. *sniff* :cry:

I really like the idea of 4c gro but in my limited testing the manabase has been a sever issue. I have trouble believing that wasteland doesn't completely reck the deck.
I initally looked at only the white version but I am now leaning towards the red splash to help the goblin matchup since that is probably the matchup hurt the most by the 4th color and the combo matchup is already helpped by the additional draw of confidant as well as any discard the deck might play.

"Why sideboard grave hate, when you can just win?" I want versatile cards in my Sb. I know it isn't a huge metagame concern but what about non-gro decks that rely on the graveyard (i.e. Iggy Pop and Salvagers Game specifically)? I know for Iggy Pop the counter suite and the card draw should be able to get you through the match but Salvager's seems like it would be able to force through a Gamekeeper via its discard and then you don't have an out in Swords to Plowshares or Meddling Mage.

Nightmare
08-23-2006, 11:06 AM
I really like the idea of 4c gro but in my limited testing the manabase has been a sever issue. I have trouble believing that wasteland doesn't completely reck the deck.Yay I get to quote myself!
Running 4 colors ended up leaving a big target on my manabase, but I guessed I wouldn't see many Wastelands on the opposing side, and I guessed correct. In a meta with more hate for nonbasics, leave the 4th color at home.


I initally looked at only the white version but I am now leaning towards the red splash to help the goblin matchup since that is probably the matchup hurt the most by the 4th color and the combo matchup is already helpped by the additional draw of confidant as well as any discard the deck might play.Pre board, this deck plays 6 STPs, and more bodies than the red version. Post Board, I get 10 - that's right, 10 - Swords, plus Engineered Plague. Goblins is a joke. I have my doubts about the manabase in this match, but Pithing Needle goes a long way to that end. And again, there's no reason to overextend your manabase in that match, since your curve tops out at a whopping 2 post board.

Ewokslayer
08-23-2006, 11:59 AM
Pre board, this deck plays 6 STPs, and more bodies than the red version. Post Board, I get 10 - that's right, 10 - Swords, plus Engineered Plague. Goblins is a joke. I have my doubts about the manabase in this match, but Pithing Needle goes a long way to that end. And again, there's no reason to overextend your manabase in that match, since your curve tops out at a whopping 2 post board.

Meddling Mage's body isn't particularly impressive and can't kill piledriver.
It should also be noted that 4 of the 10 "swords" can't kill piledriver either and two others are graveyard dependant, though the yard should be large enough to kill any goblin almost always.

Perhaps more judicious use of both Pithing Needle and fetchlands on my part will improve the matchup.


...In a meta with more hate for nonbasics, leave the 4th color at home.
How much non basic hate is too much? Does this only apply to non basic hate that isn't coming from goblins because

Goblins is a joke?

Bryant Cook
08-23-2006, 02:00 PM
The goblin's match-up is an easy one for red gro, both pre-and post board. White thresh may have more men but they're just 2/2's, 4 of them doesn't dramatically effect the differances in the match-up at all. Red's match-up is easier due to 1R, one sided wrath. As for the manabase, I don't see it being a major issue unless your opponent is a tool and open hands 3 wasteland and a port. If you're terribly afraid or concerned about the manabase there's always sacred ground for the white version. But I don't fear wasteland unless it's recurring.

troopatroop
08-23-2006, 02:38 PM
Ya see, this is the hitch for me. You're saying that the main advantage of 4c grow is dark confidant. Why can't that just be the advantage of 3c grow? The difference in cards is minute really considering the inconsistancy issues that are bound to turn up. Is STP really that much better than ghastly demise, to warrant a fourth color? How many times against goblins is your manabase going to become an issue? The question shouldn't be how much Black is helping you. It should be how much Red or White is.

Confidant in my eyes has proven itself. It should become a mainstay in the deck, but I'm really not sure about adding W for a bit of better removal/ Meddling Mage/ Enforcer.

Nightmare
08-23-2006, 03:40 PM
Meddling Mage's body isn't particularly impressive and can't kill piledriver.
It should also be noted that 4 of the 10 "swords" can't kill piledriver either and two others are graveyard dependant, though the yard should be large enough to kill any goblin almost always.Don't get hung up on Piledriver. He's only a 4 of. The Goblins you almost always have to deal with are Lackey, closely followed by Warchief. Both the Blue and Black 1 mana removal spells deal with both of them, and Demise kills Piledriver anyway. No, Mage can't block Piledriver. But he can block a turn 1 Lackey on the Play, and kills every goblin in the deck but Piledriver. That being said, I side Mage out.


How much non basic hate is too much? Does this only apply to non basic hate that isn't coming from goblins because...My only loss at the D4D (that wasn't vs. Norm, aka losing to myself cause he sucks) was to Dirt, which ran STinkHole, Waste, Vindicate and Deed for Needles. If I knew I had to deal with that on a regular basis, I'd be playing a different deck. Goblins has 4-7 disruption effects, and you can play around this with conservative fetching and Pithing Needle. The manabase also leaves some room to play with the amount of basics. 1 Forest and 1 Swamp could come in for a Sea and a Strand.

quicksilver
08-23-2006, 05:26 PM
My only loss at the D4D (that wasn't vs. Norm, aka losing to myself cause he sucks) was to Dirt, which ran STinkHole, Waste, Vindicate and Deed for Needles. If I knew I had to deal with that on a regular basis, I'd be playing a different deck.

Well that is no surprise dirt does have a 83% match up against thresh.

From the Dirst thread

Vs. Threshold (83%):
15-3-1 - Tabernacle makes keeping creatures too costly. Actually there are a lot of things that are harsh on Threshold in here. Threshold has a very weak land supply, so you can keep him searching for more when he wants to be looking for business spells. Finally, any of the versions with red have absolutely no single card answer for creatures with a$$ > 3. This is an extremely good matchup.

Parcher
08-23-2006, 06:29 PM
Well that is no surprise dirt does have a 83% match up against thresh.

You should get cancer for even thinking of opening Pandora's Box again.:mad:

Citrus-God
08-23-2006, 06:35 PM
Ya see, this is the hitch for me. You're saying that the main advantage of 4c grow is dark confidant. Why can't that just be the advantage of 3c grow? The difference in cards is minute really considering the inconsistancy issues that are bound to turn up. Is STP really that much better than ghastly demise, to warrant a fourth color? How many times against goblins is your manabase going to become an issue? The question shouldn't be how much Black is helping you. It should be how much Red or White is.

Confidant in my eyes has proven itself. It should become a mainstay in the deck, but I'm really not sure about adding W for a bit of better removal/ Meddling Mage/ Enforcer.

Well... let's see here; against Goblins, I dont tend to worry much about my lands, because I dont crack them hastily, unless I have to. And if they cant find an answer to Confidant, it should be getting me a land every turn. The point of Confidant is to get you more control over the game, more land, and more threats. It's the exact same Virginia Gro philosophy, but your investments are life and 1B. And if you want to see how strong Bobs are against Goblins, Wastedlife got 3 Pyroclasm against Goblins thanks to Bob's drawing and deck thinning.

Also, Swords > Ghastly Demise. Why? Because you wanna kill the following...

In no particular oder,

1. Dark Confidant
2. Withered Wretch
3. Hypnotic Specter
4. Nantuko Shade

Is that reason enough to run White as a 4th color? Because one of the deck's best match-up is Homebrew, only if you run a 4th as removal, such as Red or White. Homebrew runs out of gas very quick, and throws out a Hyppy or Confidant to stall while it finds more control. Now obviously you wouldnt let this through, so you play Bob when they're vaunerable and you blow their guys up.

Adding White/Red is the best you can do, otherwise you can run Overlord's version, which is quite solid. All you need to do with the list is add another Counterspell, as the 3/3/4 split is rather solid for a strong midgame.

Brushwagg
08-24-2006, 09:32 PM
@Goblins:Is an almost autowin. I've been running the Black version now for a while, and I think out of the whole time I lost 1 match to Goblins and it I lost because I couldn't find a couple of counters for 4x Price or Progress. The 4 color version has an even easier time.

@Bob:He is a total card drawing machine that your opponent has to deal with or they ARE GOIUNG TO LOSE. As far as FOW I really don't worry about it. 1. it's only a 4 of. 2.Deck manipulation makes it so you don't flip one to often. 3. If you do flip one, then you have a Force of Will in hand. So it still works out for you.

Also to add 1 more thing about Bob. In the Thousands of games I played He has only killed me once. Thats 1 time out of thousands of games.

Shriekmaw
08-24-2006, 09:59 PM
@Goblins:Is an almost autowin. I've been running the Black version now for a while, and I think out of the whole time I lost 1 match to Goblins and it I lost because I couldn't find a couple of counters for 4x Price or Progress. The 4 color version has an even easier time.

@Bob:He is a total card drawing machine that your opponent has to deal with or they ARE GOIUNG TO LOSE. As far as FOW I really don't worry about it. 1. it's only a 4 of. 2.Deck manipulation makes it so you don't flip one to often. 3. If you do flip one, then you have a Force of Will in hand. So it still works out for you.

Also to add 1 more thing about Bob. In the Thousands of games I played He has only killed me once. Thats 1 time out of thousands of games.

I remembered when I did play you with goblins and my only out was my price of progress in my deck. Price of Progress is insane against any Gro build.

I do agree Goblins is favorable for Gro, and probably 4 color Gro, but its not an autowin for you. You may have multiple answers in your deck, but Goblins also play port and wasteland which can cause problems if drawn in multiples.

I believe its 60/40, maybe we will play and find out what the true percentages are sometime.

Later Gro fans.

Bryant Cook
08-24-2006, 10:55 PM
Ya see, this is the hitch for me. You're saying that the main advantage of 4c grow is dark confidant. Why can't that just be the advantage of 3c grow? The difference in cards is minute really considering the inconsistancy issues that are bound to turn up. Is STP really that much better than ghastly demise, to warrant a fourth color? How many times against goblins is your manabase going to become an issue? The question shouldn't be how much Black is helping you. It should be how much Red or White is.

Confidant in my eyes has proven itself. It should become a mainstay in the deck, but I'm really not sure about adding W for a bit of better removal/ Meddling Mage/ Enforcer.

I've been testing the goblins match-up the last 2 days. I've played over 30 games both pre and post SB. The results were 25-7 and 28-5, So I still believe that goblins is still an amazing match-up. I don't want to hear this crap about competent players blah, blah, blah. The fact of the matter is a half retarded-crack addict could play it just as great as a pro, you play men and you swing. The results will still be the same either way.

@Troop- I don't know if you've ever noticed but the black version of threshold has a hard time against non-goblin aggro. If you look at mine and Nightmare's lists we SMASH aggro to shreds. I run 9 creature removal spells, Nightmare runs 6 because of this we have a great aggro and combo match-up. Try playing the deck and see for yourself, infact the combo match-up is still great with red. 2nd turn Dark Confidant against solidarity is huge giving you a crazy draw engine, without tapping out.

@TheNick- Please leave your comments to PM's about goblins they do not belong here. "Well this one time about 8 months ago I beat you, hense gro doesn't have an auto win, blah, blah, blah." Deck's get screwed; it happens, I was there he had 10-12 lands in play.

Edit: Not to mention he was running U/G/b.

Citrus-God
10-04-2006, 10:35 PM
Got back from some insane testing. I got a UGwb list here. It's rather dead sexy, and it's been my little project for some time. It's a spin-off of Overlord95's Gro and ObFreely's Gro. I noticed that Obfreely's version tends to run out of gas around late game, and Overlord's has a midgame, bu doesnt seem to have stronger removal and creature quality in the mirror (Not having a flying fatty sucks).


// Lands 17
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Nantuko Monastery


// Creatures 12
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
3 Dark Confidant
1 Mystic Enforcer


// Spells 32
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Portent
3 Predict
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pithing Needle


// Sideboard 15
1 Mystic Enforcer
2 Nantuko Monastery
3 Ghastly Demise
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Naturalize
3 Tivadar's Crusade


Yeah. This deck will continue what it was designed to do: Make Combo and the mirror crap their pants. I dont see a need for Meddling Mage anymore, as adding it is just overkill for me. Running Confidant is like running Mage, but you get more answers and threats. This deck is a bomb in the mirror. It should be 65/35 in your favor. It runs so many Maindecked threats and Bob just makes things deadlier.


Mana Base:
Personally, I love it! The random Monastery won me so many games. IMO, think White should be splashed soley because of Removal, Evasive Fatty, My fave manland, and Sideboard tech.

Creatures:
Standard 8 beaters, 3 Bobs, and an Enforcer. Those dont say much, but the Bobs are what makes this deck win games. So must I move on?

Cantrips:
I dont want to rely too much on Predict, but at the same time, on Bob. 17 Lands with 11 1cc cantrips make me happy with my opening hands.

Counters:
Yeah... I run 11 counters. Dazes are better than everybody thinks. A lot of people tend to underrate them. For everytime your opponent plays around Daze, it's a Time Walk on your part. Have more of them just bluffs them.
Also, 3 hard counters are sexy. They act as pseudo Time Walks or generic answer.

Removal:
4 S2Ps are nice. I dont want to have more Removal maindecked because I often get afraid that they'll become dead.

Tempo:
Pithing Needles are so godly. It's the reason why this deck perfortms better than it should against Goblins. The only match-up this card sucks in is the mirror and sometimes Solidarity.

Sideboard 15:

Extra Men:
2 Nantuko Monastery
1 Mystic Enforcer
3 Jotun Grunt

You need them in the mirror. You semi-need Grunt against Solidarity. You need more of these sexy guys against Angel Stompy.

Extra Removal:
3 Ghastly Demise
3 Tivadar's Crusade
3 Naturalize

Ghastly Demise were put in as an answer to Grunt, additional answer to Lackey, and generic removal versus non-black aggro.

Crusades are rather obvious.

We need Naturalizes.


In a combo heavy metagame, you run things like Meddling Mage, Stifle/Trickbind, and/or Duress. You can also run Pernicious Deed if you need more removal. Diabolic Edict looks sexy. I also might consider running Engineered Plague, as it's not as narrow as Crusade: you can call Beast against Aluren.

tyrcho
08-24-2007, 09:07 AM
For my first post on the Source, I'd like to present you my pet deck. It may or may not belong to this thread, but I think it is close enough to the subject even if many individual cards differ.

The goal of the deck is to abuse the best cards of 4 colors, and adapt playstyle to opponent's deck. It has answers to almost everything in the format.
It is closer in its philosophy to Fish than to Thresh, but with the green creatures to provide a clock so combo has no time to recover after disruption.

// Lands 17
1 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah

// Creatures 14
3 Dark Confidant
3 Mother of Runes
4 Quirion Dryad
4 Tarmogoyf

// Spells 29
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Duress
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard 15
4 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pernicious Deed
4 Diabolic Edict
1 Mother of Runes
1 Dark Confidant


Card choices :
17 Lands
I play 9 fetches for the interaction with Brainstorm, and to get consistantly my colors in play on turn 2. The fetches are to be kept unsacrified as long as possible to dodge land destruction, to keep options opened, and in late game to shuffle back Daze and additional lands with Brainstorm.
I want 1 dual land of each combination since blue is not so dominant and so any fetch can get me any color and any dual save one.
The mana base is very stable, you have very often an Underground Sea and a Savannah or Bayou and Tundra on turn 2.

14 Creatures
3 Dark Confidant
One of the best cards in the deck. All the deck costs 1 or 2 except Deed and FOW.
However sometimes you have to Brainstorm during your upkeep to avoid too much damage against aggro or even to swords him. He also dies to your board control. I don't play 4 maindeck because of the damage he inflicts.
4 Quirion Dryad
I play 32 cards which boost it, and it sometimes attack for 5 (6 if you forced a spell) on turn 3 letting you play the aggro role. Not such a bad draw late game since you keep cards in hand quite often due to Confidant/cantrips.
4 Tarmogoyf
Another clock, the red version of the deck used Seal of Fire to boost him, now I have only Deed as enchantment and Explosives as artifact, but he's always at least 4/5.
3 Mother of Runes
Protects the good creatures from removal, answers Lackey turn 1, block tarmogoyf all day long, boosts Dryad, make it unblockable for the win, ...

29 Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
Interacts nicely with Dryad, fetches, Confidant, Tarmogoyf.
They also allow to play 17 lands and consistantly hit 2 lands on turn 2, keeping hands with 1 Island and 6 cards I would mulligan otherwise. Allows to run some cards in less than 4 and consistantly find them.
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
Standard counter suite which protects and boosts the Dryad.
4 Duress
Needed against combo, ritual for Tarmogoyf.
4 Swords to Plowshares
Best removal in the format, answers opposing Tarmogoyfs and Lackeys.
2 Pithing Needle
Needed maindeck against Wasteland, useless against very few decks.
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives
Board control package. Explosives is mainly against EtW combo, Chalice. Split enchantment/artifact for Tarmogoyf.

Sideboard
4 Blue Elemental Blast
Against goblins or burn.
2 Pithing Needle
More protection against Wasteland or troublesome cards such as Jitte.
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pernicious Deed
More board control, if the opponent can drop more permanents than you do.
4 Diabolic Edict
More creature control, mainly against Mongoose or decks with less creatures than you, so you side out board control cards.
1 Mother of Runes
1 Dark Confidant
Against some deck you want 4 of these.

You generally play the deck as Threshold or Fish, the Aggro/Control way. But it can adapt to the opponent and play board control with Deed, or Aggro with a fast Dryad/Tarmogoyf, or even pure control against combo.



Last week-end there were 2 local tournaments in Europe in which I played.
I tried TES on FNM but I'm not skilled enough with the deck and went 1-3.
I practised with my friends on Saturday and gave it up for the moment. Then I tried a UGRB deck I had been playing on MWS with some success. End of day I decided to swap red for white since I was having trouble to fight large creatures and was expecting Tarmogoyf everywhere. The Mother of Runes were added last but not tested before the tournament.



To the report ...

It was a tournament in Belgium, 34 players, 6 rounds and then top8. 1st prize was a playset of Underground Seas and a fetch land. 2nd 2 FOW and a fetch.

Round 1 - Enchantress
I start against my friend Quentin, we have practised together so we know very well our decks and know it is a good matchup for me.
Game 1 I Duress and counter all his drawers and he dies to a tarmogoyf or a dryad rather fast.
Side :
-4 Swords
-3 Mother of Runes
-1 Engineered Explosives
+4 Diabolic Edict
+1 Dark Confidant
+1 Pernicious Deed
+2 Pithing Needle
Game 2 he starts and is able to have about 10 enchantments in play by turn 4, with Confinment, 3 drawers, Seal of Cleansing, but no cloak yet. I filter with Brainstorm and Visions until I get 6 lands, play and crack Pernicious Deed. He can't recover before I kill him.
2-0

Round 2 - Aluren
He killed my friend Xavier round 1, I know he has a very fast version with Imperial Recruiter, ESG, Wall of Roots.
Game 1 he Brainstorms and Cabal Therapies me while I put a Dark Confidant and a Dryad. He is frightened to go off without enough protection on turn 6 and dies to Dryad. He could have won though since I had no more FOW.
Side :
-3 Mother of Runes
-1 Engineered Explosives
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Pernicious Deed
+1 Dark Confidant
We exchange discard and brainstorms for a while, then I put a Needle on Cavern Harpy. He frowns...
He plays and replays several Eternal Witness, and the blue flier which unsummons one of his own creatures. I'm unable to apply much pressure since I don't have a Tarmogoyf and he can block and kill my Dryad. My Dark Confidant slowly runs me to 5 life.
Time is called and he still can't kill me with his combo. So he goes the beatdown way, getting all his creature into play with Aluren, Imperial Recruiter and the rest. I sword my Dryad EOT for 7 life, reveal FOW to Confidant, and no Pernicious Deed. He is able to bring me down to -1 on his last additional turn.
1-1, 1-0-1

Round 3 - Red Thresh
I'm paired down since he's only 1-1-0.
He's running a version with Fire/Ice, Lightning bolt, no Counterbalance engine.
We both win a very long game played mostly on card advantage. Time is called and we don't even start the third one.
Side :
+4 Diabolic Edict
+1 Mother of Runes
+1 Dark Confidant
-2 Pithing Needle
-2 Pernicious Deed
-1 Engineered Explosives
-1 Duress
1-1, 1-0-2

Round 4 - Red Death
I play against my friend Stephen who's 1-2-0. Again paired down ... he concedes so I have a better shot at top8 and we play for fun. I win 2-1, he is able to disrupt me a lot and destroy my lands but I manage to remove his clocks (Negator and Shade) and win because of Confidant and card advantage.
Side :
+4 Diabolic Edict
+1 Mother of Runes
+2 Pithing Needle
-2 Pernicious Deed
-1 Engineered Explosives
-4 Duress
2-0-2

Round 5 - Rifter
Game 1 I disrupt all his creature control and win fast with Dryad and Tarmogoyf.Game 2 lasts for 40 minutes, and takes 20 minutes during additional rounds.
He never has a Rift, but slows me down with Moat and Humility. I have to reset the board with Deed but he has another Humility to my 4 creatures. He has over 10 lands in play and is able to recur an Eternal Dragon and block them forever. Neither of us can thus attack. I have 1 more card in my deck so I try to deck him, we both stop cycling/cantripping/fetching. On the 5th additional turn he would have no cards left to draw, but shuffles back in his library his dragon with a white instant. I would have been decked on the next turn, but it ends 1-0 for me.
Side :
-2 Pithing Needle
-1 Engineered Explosives
-2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Dark Confidant
+1 Mother of Runes
+1 Pernicious Deed
+2 Blue Elemental Blast
1-0, 3-0-2

Round 6 - Red Thresh with Counterbalance
Since I've been paired down twice, my resistance is quite bad and I am not able to draw into the top8 with too much confidance. I play the match.
He has 2xTop and 2xCounterbalance in his deck, with Magma Jet, Fire/Ice and Lightning bolt. Classical threshold for the rest with Mongoose, Tarmogoyf and Werebear.
The first game he stalls on land but I am unable to apply pressure and he gets a Counterbalance without Top and counters my 3 first threats on pure luck. Then with cantrips and Jet I'm locked out.
Game 2 I don't draw enough creatures to match his removal/counter wall and one Tarmogoyf sticks to kill me.
+3 Diabolic Edict
+1 Mother of Runes
+1 Dark Confidant
-2 Pithing Needle
-2 Pernicious Deed
-1 Engineered Explosives
0-2, 3-1-2

Final Result :
3-1-2, 13th on 34
With a draw on game 6 I would have made 8th and played into a top 8 composed of :
- Belcher
- UWBR landstill
- zoo
- aggro loam
- Rifter (see game 5, he finished 8th)
- Red Thresh (game 6)
- White Thresh
- Vial goblins splash White



Evolution of the deck

I will probably keep it UGBW or it would become Thresh or Fish.
I'm considering the following cards to use:
- Jitte, probably in side instead of Blue Elemental Blast. Problem is to find 6 mana to play a creature and the Jitte and equip. Could be good against slow creature decks like mirror matches.
- Meddling Mage, not sure, I have already a good matchup against fast combo and slow combo (some Aluren, Enchantress) is not so popular
- Loaming Shaman in side, problem is he costs 3
- Counterbalance/Top engine, problem is the UU cost. Could be nuts with confident though. Maybe 2 Counterbalance and 3 Top could find some room.
- Aether Vial, no idea if it would be useful
- Tormod's Crypt to slow Threshold, IGG, Ichorid combo, Cephalid Breakfast, boosts Tarmogoyf
- Trinket Mage, no more than 2 because of the cost, with the Needle/Crypt/Explosives toolbox

Cards played in Fish and Thresh I wouldn't like in the deck :
- Mongoose, Werebear : I can't reach threshold fast and green is poor with Dryad
- Jotun Grunt, not so good with Tarmogoyf
- Anything which costs more than 2 has to be seriously needed because of Confidant and the mana base

Matchups

Here is how I see the most common matchups. If you play the deck, I would be glad to get your feedback since I have not so many different decks and partners, and I haven't practised against all the field yet.

If you want to test on MWS, please PM or contact me on Skype, my pseudo is always tyrcho everywhere.


Goblins
I have not yet tested it, but I think it is one of the worst matchups. You have several answers to lackey (Mother, counter, Swords, BEB post-side) and to Vial (Duress on play, counter, Needle, Explosives) but they will overwhelm you with threats and land disruption.
Play very conservatively, keeping a hand with more lands than usual and keep fetch lands and cantrips open as long as possible. Needle (Vial, Wasteland, Port, Siege-gang) and BEB should help.
Side:
+2 Needle
+4 BEB
+1 Deed
+1 Mother
-2 Confidant
-4 Duress

Threshold UGr, UGw or UG or Fish
It plays a lot like the mirror match except you have Confidant to outdraw them. You are the control player, try to protect your creatures with counter and Mother of Runes.
I side out board control (Deed, Explosives), Needle (except against the new decks with Top and Wasteland) and side in Mother, Confidant, Edict, possibly BEB against red. May side out FOW since it gives card disadvantage and hurts with 4 Confidants.
I think it's about even since the decks are not so different. They are more consistent but you'll have slightly more draw if you can protect Confidant, and a Dryad kept unchecked will own all except a Swords to Plowshares.

Fast Combo (TES, Belcher, Solidarity)
I tend to draw a lot of Duresses, Dazes, FOW which usually slows them enough for you to put a clock (Tarmogoyf, Dryad) online. Dark Confidant and cantrips help to sculpt a good control hand. The lack of stifle hurts against EtW, you'll need an Explosives to stop them.
Side in confidant, Explosives against EtW, Needle against belcher for Mother of runes, Deed. Meddling Mage should be in the side if you expect lots of Solidarity. You can also needle the U/W fetch.
I have not tested much against these specific combos, but the general combo matchup is generally favorable. I'm worried about Solidarity though.

B/x aggro control
As long as you are able to deal with their (usually lone) threat (Shade, Negator, Specter) with a Swords, you should have some time to recover from the initial disruption with your drawers. Worst case is if you have no lands left and they kept a Specter online.
I side out board control and some Duress or Dryad for Edict, Mother, Confidant, Needle (Shade, Wasteland, possibly Jitte). I don't use BEB against Red Death.
You need to use a counter or Duress for Dystopia if you sided out the Explosives and Deed, or play only one threat / Mother.
I'd call it sligthly favorable.

Stax
Not tested, but you need to protect from cards like Trinisphere, Chalice, Wasteland recursion, Smokestack. Probably quite defavorable since they will lock you out. I need a plan against these decks.

Loam Control (43 Lands, Confinment)
Not tested either. Wasteland recursion will really hurt before you get a Needle. Confinment needs to be answered with a counter or board control (or Duressed away). I honetly have no idea who is favored.

Random aggro
A very fast aggro such as Stompy is probably difficult to stop since Deed / Explosives will be a turn too slow, but against others such as Zoo or White Weenie they are golden.
Burn is probably faster than you too except if you can get a fast Dryad.


Thanks in advance for your feedback !

zulander
08-24-2007, 11:58 AM
Be a man, play 5c thresh.

Mana: 20
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea

Draw: 11
3 Portent
4 Brainstorm
2 Top
2 Serum Visions

Control: 14
3 StP
3 Bolt
4 Force
4 Daze

Creatures: 15
4 Nimble Mongoose/Where?bear
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
4 Serendib Efreet

Sideboard: 15
4 Coalition Victory
4 Ordered Migration
4 Last Stand
3 Sacred Ground

I'll pay for anyone's entry fee if they play this at a tournament I attend.

ajmmii
08-24-2007, 05:33 PM
Be a man, play 5c thresh.

Mana: 20
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea

Draw: 11
3 Portent
4 Brainstorm
2 Top
2 Serum Visions

Control: 14
3 StP
3 Bolt
4 Force
4 Daze

Creatures: 15
4 Nimble Mongoose/Where?bear
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
4 Serendib Efreet

Sideboard: 15
4 Coalition Victory
4 Ordered Migration
4 Last Stand
3 Sacred Ground

I'll pay for anyone's entry fee if they play this at a tournament I attend.

Send me the deck and sign me up! G2 and g3, prepare as I win with Coalition Victory... once I, um, draw a ... red creature.

Nihil Credo
08-24-2007, 07:22 PM
I had a long post written for this, then I misclicked and lost it. Sigh. You'll have to be content with the short version.


Tyrcho, I don't like the fish-y direction you have taken Threshold towards. The strength of Thresh is that, despite being a 17-lands, 3/4-colour deck, it has the most consistency of any deck pretty much ever built for Magic: the Gathering. When was the last time you heard a Thresh player say "I just drew crap"?

By cutting down on the library manipulation, on the countermagic, and adding conditional cards like Mother of Runes and Duress that will be amazing in Round 1 and suck bollocks on Round 2, you throw away the deck's real power and end up with a pile of powerful but random cards.

You don't need blowouts with this deck. You just need to have a viable game plan at all times. Sure, Mother of Runes + Dark Confidant is a huge card advantage engine... but assuming your game plan is to amass a lot of Bob-draws (and it won't always be), it would have been enough to cantrip into a couple of counterspells and use those to protect the Confidant. Turn 1 Duress is a better play against combo than Turn 1 Portent hoping to find a Fow/Daze/EE... but you'll curse every time your opponent reveals four Goblins, or three irrelevant enchantments and an Argothian Enchantress.

The very purpose of going up to four colours in Threshold is to have access to reliable maindeck tools and/or powerful sideboard options. My UGwb list currently has the following advantages over my UGb one: Swords to Plowshares instead of Ghastly Demise, Mystic Enforcer instead of Tombstalker (both are pretty much straight improvements), and access to sideboard Armageddons. That's all that is really needed, IMO.

Hope that gave you some food for thought.



PS: Play four Confidants.

Isaac
08-25-2007, 02:27 AM
Nightmare and wasted I know I'm new here but I was curious as to why you are playing meddling mage main deck. I know he add's to your creature count but shouldn't he be in the sb because your kidnly guessing blindly as to what your opponet is playing in bigger tournys.

Nihil Credo
08-25-2007, 08:00 AM
Those early posts are from a year ago.

MattH
08-25-2007, 02:40 PM
Nightmare and wasted I know I'm new here but I was curious as to why you are playing meddling mage main deck. I know he add's to your creature count but shouldn't he be in the sb because your kidnly guessing blindly as to what your opponet is playing in bigger tournys.

It is not really difficult to guess what your opponent is playing as early as turn two. And at any time after that, it becomes more and more obvious. Learning how to play a game one Meddling Mage or Cabal Therapy is an important skill to master.

tyrcho
08-28-2007, 07:24 AM
I had a long post written for this, then I misclicked and lost it. Sigh. You'll have to be content with the short version.


Tyrcho, I don't like the fish-y direction you have taken Threshold towards. The strength of Thresh is that, despite being a 17-lands, 3/4-colour deck, it has the most consistency of any deck pretty much ever built for Magic: the Gathering. When was the last time you heard a Thresh player say "I just drew crap"?

By cutting down on the library manipulation, on the countermagic, and adding conditional cards like Mother of Runes and Duress that will be amazing in Round 1 and suck bollocks on Round 2, you throw away the deck's real power and end up with a pile of powerful but random cards.

You don't need blowouts with this deck. You just need to have a viable game plan at all times. Sure, Mother of Runes + Dark Confidant is a huge card advantage engine... but assuming your game plan is to amass a lot of Bob-draws (and it won't always be), it would have been enough to cantrip into a couple of counterspells and use those to protect the Confidant. Turn 1 Duress is a better play against combo than Turn 1 Portent hoping to find a Fow/Daze/EE... but you'll curse every time your opponent reveals four Goblins, or three irrelevant enchantments and an Argothian Enchantress.

The very purpose of going up to four colours in Threshold is to have access to reliable maindeck tools and/or powerful sideboard options. My UGwb list currently has the following advantages over my UGb one: Swords to Plowshares instead of Ghastly Demise, Mystic Enforcer instead of Tombstalker (both are pretty much straight improvements), and access to sideboard Armageddons. That's all that is really needed, IMO.

Hope that gave you some food for thought.



PS: Play four Confidants.

Thanks for your constructive answer.

You are right by stating that Threshold is more consistant, but I think some cards in my deck are simply more powerful. The more I think about it, I'm getting convinced this is more a deviation of a Fish build than of a Thresh build. So this is probably the wrong thread to develop this deck. I still think the deck has potential. I will post it in the UGBW Fish thread (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6085).

About the 4 confidants, it really hurts with 4 FoW and 9 fetchlands against aggro. I'm trying a version with 4 confidants, more creatures (some Meddling Mage) and 2 Jitte maindeck but moving the FoW to the side.

thefreakaccident
10-30-2007, 10:14 PM
This is an extreme necro, but with the way that the meta is panning out these days, I feel that this varient of threshold would be extremely good at this time... I have been working on a 4c varient myself and was wondering what the most recent UGWB list would look like with everything that is going on currently.

Illissius
10-30-2007, 10:39 PM
Something like this, perhaps?

4c Goodstuff Gro

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Serum Visions
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Tundra

SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Armageddon
SB: 2 Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 2 Krosan Grip

This started as an intent to put Swords to Plowshares, Thoughtseize, Tarmogoyf, Brainstorm, and Force of Will in the same deck, and naturally evolved into a "Threshold" deck from there (mainly because Force requires blue cards).

Nihil Credo
10-30-2007, 10:47 PM
Personally, I've come to the conclusion that UGwb is not worth it over UGb. By far the main reason to add white was StP instead of Ghastly Demise, but as it turns out, every black creature not named Dark Confidant gets beaten around by our Goyfs and Geese. Since I hated how a single LD effect is an issue for 4c (whereas 3c just shrugs and plays another identical land), and since I don't mind having a few Edicts in the board (I often bring them in for redundancy against nonblack decks too), I went back to UGB and haven't touched UGwb since.

Lukas Preuss
10-31-2007, 09:09 AM
I have to agree with Nihil here. Lately, I have been doing a lot of work with various UGbx Threshold variants, but they all feel weaker than straight Ugb Thresh. If Swords is your only reason to splash white (and thus making the manabase much more vulnerable), Ghastly Demise and/or Smother can fill this slot without much difficulty.

You could even try to fit the land destruction package of UG Thresh in UGb Thresh, using all the advantages of UG Thresh with a much stronger draw engine and better removal.