View Full Version : [Deck] Uwb Fish
Hanni
08-15-2006, 05:58 PM
UWb Fish
Brain Food
Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains
Creatures (16)
3 Mother of Runes
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Serra Avenger
4 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage
Spells (27)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Duress
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard (15)
2 Serenity
4 Engineered Plague
2 Perish
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Fish is a deck that I've been working with for a long time (for the Legacy format). The deck originally started as a U/W Rebel-Go deck (because I loved how the Rebel recruiting mechanism was synergistic with Counterspell and other instants). As I tweaked it more and more, it slowly but surely became a Fish deck that was competitive for the format. This is my current list and it has been doing very well.
Basically, the blue white black color combination gives access to a large amount of control elements. It also gives the deck access to some of the best Fish creatures.
The mana base looks skeptical on paper but it actually works very well. The deck only needs 2 lands to function (1 Underground Sea and 1 Tundra). The fetchlands provide land destruction protection for matchups against decks like Homebrew. The Riptide Laboratories work very well considering that 12 of the creatures in the deck are Wizards (bounce up a Confidant when your life total is low, bounce up a Meddling Mage after casting a Duress to reset Mage, and tons of other uses). The low land count and 7 fetchlands make the deck much more effective, drawing into more creatures and spells.
I've had very good success with this deck against a large portion of the Legacy metagame. Comments/Suggestions/etc are welcome.
Goblin Snowman
08-15-2006, 06:13 PM
Have you considered Therepy? With 17 creatures, you should be able to use the Flashback somewhat reliably. Also, how is Jotus Grunt in the main working out? I would replace him with something more consistant, like Serendib Efreet. But you may have alot of NQG in your meta, so he might work out.
First, welcome to The Source. :)
I've been dabbling with a deck sort of like this for a little while, but I've been running Aether Vials in the deck as well. They are the nuts in here, especially with post-sideboard Winter Orb. They also solve some of the color issues the deck might have.
Also, considering the number of wizards in the deck...Voidmage Prodigy? Maybe? I mean, you run 12 other wizards. I personally see him being better than Spiketail Hatchling, and it's even more retarded when you have Aether Vial for dumbness. Lol, Patron Wizard would be funny too. This deck is SO not Fish, but Wizards!
Cabal Therapy may be better than Duress considering your creature count, but it's all on preference. Or hell, Cabal Interrogator is also a Wizard too, and it's not a bad card either.
I'm also skeptical on Jotun Grunt. He's big, but his upkeep is just bad. He's a better sb contender, but there's probably a better option for a beater given the colors you're working with, like Serendib Efreet, Phyrexian Negator, Rotting Giant, etc.
Btw, Riptide Laboratory rules.
Hanni
08-15-2006, 07:05 PM
I've considered Therapy but it's not as consistent. Sac'ing a Confidant for it when your low on life can be good... but more often you don't really wanna sac a creature. The first time you play it your not garunteed to hit anything, although it can be used twice. It does hit creatures, but I just feel that Duress is more consistent. I can try it in playtesting but I don't think it's the card for me.
Aether Vial works well but I don't think it's necessary. It can be great in a counterspell heavy metagame but otherwise I usually have enough mana to play what I need (this deck is built on a good curve). I suppose that it can make the deck faster and I'm not saying that it isn't a great card. I just think that there are more important cards that the deck needs the space for. 17 creatures isn't a large amount anyway. The deck doesn't really have color issues often, to be honest. It does work well with Winter Orb but there isn't really room for it. I can see it being very useful against Homebrew and I will consider it but space is very limited and I don't think it's worth trading out important cards for.
I tried the Voidmage. His ability is a bit slow and he lacks evasion. Another 1 toughness Wizard just makes the deck even more prone to Engineered Plague. The Spiketails ability isn't something I rely upon, thus why there is only 2. However, their evasion swings a Sword of Fire and Ice well and the sac ability can slow my opponent down early game. They work well with Winter Orb as well.
Jotun Grunt has been working very well for me. I only run 3 because his upkeep can be difficult sometimes. He's more of a mid-late game beater. He avoids Bolts and smashes face for 4 and is still light on the mana curve. He's my MVP for decks like Loam-a-Tog, Gro, and others. The fetchlands and cards like Brainstorm and Duress fill the graveyard sufficiently. He gets even more nuts with Dark Confidant. He's not a second turn play... but after a few turns I usually have enough targets to keep him alive for 3 attacks (for early game). Later in the game I can keep him alive long enough to swing a win.
It's the Grunt's upkeep that actually warrants why I run him. His upkeep opens up my sideboard, allowing me to remove the Withered Wretches for more important spells. He's like a Withered Wretch on steroids. He's like Burning-Tree Shaman in that he has the tendancy to make some decks just roll over. Stopping things like Darkblast also help. He may seem to be a burden in theory but he's been working extremely well for me. I definitely would not drop him. If I were to drop him it would be for Serendib Efreet... but as I said, Jotun Grunt has been working extremely well for me.
I appreciate the comments and suggestions and I will take it all into consideration during further playtesting.
EDIT: I'm considering dropping out 2 cards in the sideboard for 2 Counterbalance. Winter Orb helps against decks with large cc engines, so why not put in a card that can trump decks with lower cc engines like mine? Especially coupled with Brainstorm, Counterbalance can give Gro, Homebrew, Solidarity, Iggy Pop, WW, Zoo, and a ton of other decks huge problems. Not sure exactly what I would cut though.
The first card viable to be cut looks like 1 Vindicate. I haven't sideboarded in the full 3 Vindicates at all so far. Pithing Needle often gets done what I want Vindicate to do and is much easier on the mana base. The Vindicates are still necessary though because some permanents have triggered abilities rather than activated abilities and I do sideboard in 2 often enough.
After that, I'm pretty stumped on what else I could drop. I really don't think the deck can afford to cut any Engineered Plagues. Goblins is a very tough matchup for Fish without Engineered Plague on the table (unless I draw into Sword of Fire and Ice and can manage to stall/use it long enough to gain board control). Even in a Goblin-light metagame, there are still uses for the Engineered Plagues every so often. Since I dropped 1 Vindicate, I don't really want to drop any Needles. Needles are helpful against so many different types of decks. Winter Orb is just nuts against alot of problematic decks and although I could probably afford to drop 1, I'd prefer to have the full 3 for matchups such as Rifter.
The only other card left is Engineered Explosives. Engineered Explosives is amazing against Zoo, WW, Stax, and other decks with 1cc-3cc permanents. However, it seems that the Counterbalances and the Engineered Explosives are designed for the same type of decks. Running 2/1 on Counterbalance and Engineered Explosives is probably the way I'd go. Although Engineered Explosives is much more useful against low cc aggro decks than Counterbalance is, Counterbalance extends out farther... hitting decks like Soliditary and Iggy Pop. Counterbalance isn't always consistent but, then again, Engineered Explosives is hard to use since it affects me as well. I'll test it and see how it works.
(I decided to not add Counterbalance)
Oh, on a side not, I also trumped an Iggy Pop in testing with Jotun Grunt, putting my opponent's draw and search back into his Library so that he could not use IGG effectively. The purpose of my deck, at least the way I like to see it, is that every creature has an alternative purpose... and the alternative purpose is more important than being fat. The alternative purpose is an element of control. Cards like Rotting Giant, Phyrexian Negator (which I think is awful), and Serendib Efreet are just fat. Jotun Grunt is fat too but, more importantly, his upkeep is disruptive towards many different decks in the format (Eternal Dragon to Rifter, state of threshold to Gro, graveyard toolbox for any Loam based decks, decks using dredge or flashback cards in general, etc etc etc). I think Jotun Grunt is amazing and for those who don't like him, I suggest just trying him for a little while when you playtest (if your deck runs white) and maybe you might change or mind, maybe not. I wouldn't run more than 3 though.
Hanni
08-19-2006, 09:05 AM
I've been doing alot of playtesting lately and I've made a few changes.
With the 4 Duress, this deck doesn't really need the heavy 4/4/4 Daze/Counterspell/FoW that Gro has. It's also difficult for this deck to play Counterspells, whether it be because of the double blue cost or the fact that I have to leave 2 lands untapped to use it. A combination of difficulty to use and importance in the deck gets them cut.
Spiketail Hatchlings haven't been working as well in this deck as they do in other decks. I think the main use of Spiketail Hatchlings is to slow the opponent down early game. Running 2 makes it hard to get them early game. The evasion was nice but I've come to the conclusion that this deck doesn't need evasion (beyond the Stormscapes bleed ability)...
...which brings me to another thing. The SoFI haven't been helping as much as Jitte used to. The extra 1 mana that it costs to put it into play has been a big factor, much larger than I expected. Dealing combat damage to the opponent with SoFI can take several turns after it's already in play, which is typically too slow. SoFI is only truly useful when it hits the opponent. Jitte is much better against opposing aggro (besides Goblins) which is really what the SoFI were intended for anyway. The card draw was nice but hard to achieve. The SoFI are better put into a deck with alot of evasion, like Faerie Stompy. For a deck like Fish, I think Jitte will be much more effective. The life gain with Jitte will probably help me more than the card draw with the SoFI and Jitte should be alot better at handling aggro. The Pro Red/Blue was nice, but there is a better option for that...
...Mother of Runes. I've tried her before, cut her, added her back, cut her. As the deck changes, the need for MoR changes. I considered running Lions/Isamaru but I just didn't feel like the deck needed 1cc muscle. With MoR, it gains another element of control. With the old maindeck, I couldn't really do much against a Troll Ascetic. MoR is an effective blocker. However, MoR can also keep me protected against spot removal. With a drop in countermagic (Spiketails and Counterspells), the additional protection is useful. It can also give my creatures evasion if necessary. Additional 1cc creatures give the deck a better early game... and MoR is amazing against Homebrew.
With a lower amount of countermagic, the deck needs more removal. With only 4 StP, something like a resolved Jitte or SotF from the opponent was devastating. The deck used to run maindeck Vindicates over StP at a time. Maindeck StP is obviously the way to go, but the deck still needs maindeck Vindicates. With a drop in countermagic, the deck has room to keep the 4 StP and maindeck 2 Vindicates (which will be necessary with the lack of countermagic). This should help in game 1 against alot of different decks. Beyond being able to hit artifacts/enchantments (and lands), it adds to the amount of spot removal too. Since aggro seems to be increasing in the format, more spot removal is good.
The deck still runs 20 blue cards to fund FoW's.
MD
-1 Underground Sea
-2 Spiketail Hatchling
-3 Counterspell
-2 Sword of Fire and Ice
+1 Scrubland
+3 Mother of Runes
+2 Vindicate
+2 Umezawa's Jitte
Changing the maindeck causes changes to the sideboard.
In testing, there have been few matches where the Winter Orbs actually get sided in. There are matchups where they hose, so I don't want to cut them. I think 2 will work, especially since Pithing Needle is also effective in most matchups where Orb comes in. There are matchups where Orb doesn't help but Needle does. In some matchups I wished I had 4 Needles instead of 3.
Running 2 maindeck Vindicates means I only need 2 in the sideboard. The extra slot is currently going towards a 3rd Jitte although this may change.
SB
-1 Vindicate
-1 Winter Orb
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
Changes made in the original decklist.
Bane of the Living
08-19-2006, 09:14 AM
Yea man you should be playing Counterbalance in here. I dont really see a good reason not to. Its probably better than Vindicate.
Hanni
08-21-2006, 01:34 AM
After testing, I've come to the conclusion that the Winter Orbs aren't necessary. The only 3 matchups that seem to require Winter Orb are Landstill, Rift, and Psychatog. All 3 of these decks are usually favorable matchups for me game 1 so far and they are even easier after sideboarding due to Pithing Needle (and Vindicate somewhat). The Orbs just come in as overkill. Winter Orb doesn't effect decks with larger cc curves that use Moxes, Birds/Elves, Ancient Tombs, or other accelerants. Winter Orb is a card that should be amazing in a fish deck that runs 19 1cc spells and 17 2cc spells maindeck but it just doesn't affect the rest of the format enough to be worth 2 sideboard slots.
I've been trying to figure out what I could replace the 2 spots with. I don't have problems against Control (as mentioned above) and I don't have problems against Combo either (Iggy Pop and Solidarity). Land destruction based Aggro/Control (Deadguy Ale in particular) used to be difficult before I made a huge overhall to the deck. Now though, the 7 fetchlands and increased number of 1cc drops makes it easier. Specifically targeting Deadguy Ale, the Mother of Runes tend to hose (only being stopped by Jitte or Cursed Scroll which I have answers to). Other Aggro/Control like Threshold aren't problem matchups either. The most difficult decks seem to be Aggro. The 2 sideboard slots seem to be best devoted to these matchups. Goblins is already taken care of, so that leaves me open to everything else.
The cards I came up with were:
Wasteland
Perish
Engineered Explosives
Sword of Fire and Ice
Wrath of God
Umezawa's Jitte
Worship
Misdirection
Serenity
Darkblast
Counterbalance
Wastelands were considered primarily to combat the accelerated Stompy decks like Faerie Stompy and Angel Stompy. I think there is probably better options against these decks though but I'll keep it under consideration.
Perish seems to do alot in this format considering a large amount of aggro is green based. Perish looks to be the one I'm going to go with for now.
Engineered Explosives sweeps lower cc aggro like Zoo but does well against decks like Faerie Stompy as well. I already run 2 in the sideboard though and I don't know how often or necessary a 3rd would be (and what to drop for it). They affect me as well, so for now I'm keep them at 2... but this seems to be the closest to getting added aside from Perish.
Sword of Fire and Ice boosts my creatures up, making them a little bigger with the possibility of drawing cards and doing extra damage. However, they are a bit too slow to play in this deck and I lack evasion. The Mother of Runes rules out the need for pro red/blue. I'd rather run Jitte over SoFI.
Wrath of God seems to be the most versatile but hurts me in response and is a bit high on the cc curve. Against smaller cc aggro, I'd probably be better off with Engineered Explosives. Against larger cc aggro, spot removal would be sufficient.
Umezawa's Jitte is similar to Fire and Ice but it's a little easier to play and doesn't require evasion. The lifegain can help against aggro too, an option that SoFI doesn't have. I currently run 2 MD 1 SB though and, for now, I think a 4th would be overkill due to Legendary status.
Worship was considered to hose decks with no outs for it (compliments of Mother of Runes). However, it's a bit high on the cc curve and mass removal or colorless removal stop it (since I don't have untargetability). Alot of decks will have answers to either the MoR or the Worship so I don't think it's worth the space.
Misdirection was considered without regards to aggro but as a metagame answer in general, turning an opponent's removal or other disruption against them. The 5cc really scares me with the Confidant's though, since I already run 4 FoW. I'll keep these under consideration but I don't think I need them at the moment.
Serenity is a good answer to Stax or other artfiact/enchantment heavy decks and it doesn't hurt me much at all. It's also nice at stopping aggro decks with alot of equipment or enchantment support (like Faerie Stompy and Survival). I'm still considering this card, especially if Stax, Affinity, or 5/3 becomes played more in the format (as it completely hoses those). For now though, I think the Vindicates and Engineered Explosives in the sideboard should be enough artifact/enchantment removal. This is probably the next closest to being added after Perish and Engineered Explosives.
Darkblast is only truly useful against tiny aggro like opposing Fish or Deadguy Ale. Fish seems to be completely unplayed in the format and Mother of Runes and Jitte already work well against Deadguy Ale and are more useful for other matchups. I don't see myself needing Darkblast any time soon.
Counterbalance can help against decks with similar mana curves. However, the Engineered Explosives already kill opposing aggro with a similar curve. It seems like a bomb against Deaduy Ale and Threshold, possibly even Zoo or WW. With only 4 Brainstorm, it's usefulness is still completely random most of the time and it doesn't really do anything for me immediately. It's worth considering but right now I think I'd rather go with something that gives me faster results.
With all of that said, the main cards of focus are:
1) Perish
2) Engineered Explosives
3) Serenity
For now I'm gonna go with 2 Perish. There is still alot of Threshold being played at larger tournaments and making the matchup even more favorable is always a plus. I've been seeing alot of Green-based aggro on MWS lately so, for now, Perish is going to be more useful than Winter Orb was. The aggro in Survival builds seem to be mostly green, so Perish is a bomb against that. Alot of Zilla Stompy lists I have seen run a large amount of green aggro as well. Perish doesn't address 5/3, Angel Stompy, Br Sui, or Faerie Stompy at all though, so I might be replacing these after further playtesting.
The only reason I'm not sure if I want to add more Engineered Explosives or not is because I'm not sure if I will need more than 2 after sideboarding. These address the decks that I listed above that Perish does not but they are also stopped by Needle. Further playtesting might warrant a need for more than 2 in the sideboard.
Serenity seems to be more and more useful to me as I think about it. It hoses 5/3, Stax, and Affinity completely (upon resolution) and works well against Faerie Stompy and Angel Stompy too. If Vindicate/Engineered Explosives don't seem to be enough and the Perish and/or additional Engineered Explosives aren't working out, I'll toss these in.
All that font for something as simple as:
SB
-2 Winter Orb
+2 Perish
Anyways, I just felt that I'd give my explanations. If anyone can think of something better to put into these 2 slots, feel free to provide input. I edited the original decklist to reflect this current change.
edgewalker
08-21-2006, 03:12 PM
I played a guy on MWS from TMD last night who had a list similar to this one. We talked about the deck's match-ups for a little why and it turns out his SB tech for the goblins match-up (his worst) is Absolute Law. It makes all you're men pro:red. With you're disruption it shouldn't be hard to keep it on the board long enough to have an effect.
xsockmonkeyx
08-22-2006, 03:00 AM
This is somewhat similar to a 3 color AS deck that GoTrek posted a few days ago. In his deck he ran Senseis Divining Top instead of Brainstorm because they have great sinergy with Dark Confident. The counter argument to that would be that he wasnt running Force of Will in the deck and didnt have to consider pitch costs. I think that if you run the top with confident then you should have plenty of blue cards to pitch anyway. Might be something to consider.
Hanni
08-22-2006, 03:15 AM
Edgewalker, I actually don't have a problems with Goblins. I would hardly consider this to be my worst matchup.
Game 1 against Goblins can be extremely difficult depending on how they draw and how I draw. I usually have no problem stopping a turn 1 Lackey (8 free counterspells, 4 StP, 7 1cc creatures) and I can usually stop a first turn Vial. As long as they don't get too aggressive of a start, I can usually keep most of their threats neutralized through spot removal or blocking. Making sure to either Mage for Ringleaders or counter them when they aren't Vialed into play helps. Confidant usually helps win this matchup by providing me with card advantage so that I have more answers and more threats than them. Jitte helps alot (it can give me the game sometimes) and they usually don't run maindeck answers to Jitte game 1. Mother of Runes also helps, protecting my guys against Goblin Sharpshooters and Gempalm Incinerator or blocking alot of the 1cc Goblins or even large Piledrivers. The key is to keep them from exploding. Duress really doesn't do much game 1 besides give me an insight as to what to save my counters and spot removal for (and targets for Mage). Duress comes out for Engineered Plagues in games 1 and 2. I'd say game 1 can range from 60/40 in my favor to 70/30 in Goblins favor depending on the draws.
Game 2, I have a much better game against Goblins. I have access to Engineered Plague, Jitte, Engineered Explosives, and Pithing Needle in the board. I usually don't put Engineered Explosives in since the Goblins vary in cc too much for them to be effective. For this matchup:
-4 Duress
-2 Vindicate
+4 Engineered Plague
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
Additionally, 1 Force of Will and 1 Daze can be dropped for an additional 2 Pithing Needles if necessary.
I usually win games 2-3. Goblins has a hard time of dealing with Engineered Plague. 1 Plague is enough to win the game but drawing 2 is game over. If they run a white splash for Disenchant, they lose maindeck Goblins for them, weakening their strategy. In response, I can counterspell the Disenchants. The longer the Plague stays on the table, the harder it is for them to win. Pithing Needle can stop Vials or random Goblin abilities. Basically though, it's the Engineered Plagues that win this matchup. When I don't draw into an Engineered Plague, I keep the same game strategy as I had going into the first game. I've only lost a few times during alot of playtesting against Goblins in rounds 2 and 3. I'd say round 2-3 is about 60/40 to 70/30 in my favor. One thing I haven't encountered yet is a Blood Moon. Blood Moon against me can be as devastating as Engineered Plague to them. If anything, I'd drop 1-2 Riptide Laboratories for 1-2 Plains and run 2-4 Serenity in the sideboard (replacing Perish and/or Vindicate). I could also run Vials although I think the Serenity would be more useful against other matchups. Further testing will prove if this is necessary or not. Looking at the decklists for the Top 8 of the SCG Dual for Duals, none of the 4 Vial Goblin lists in the Top 8 ran Blood Moon.
Still though, Goblins is not really a hard matchup for me even though Fish is supposed to have a bad game to Goblins. From the articles I've read through, it's typically Vintage UR Fish against Vintage FCG (Food Chain Goblins) when they make that statement. I'd be very confidant taking this deck into a metagame dominated by Goblins with my current decklist.
I think Deadguy Ale is a much harder matchup than Goblins, although my current decklist now has alot of resilience against it that it didn't use to have. I think I have a favorable matchup against it now. I have Pithing Needles in my board for Cursed Scroll and Wastelands (and possibly fetchlands or Nantuko Shade). Sometimes I get suprised with Engineered Plagues but my 8 counterspells, 4 Duress, 4 Meddling Mage, and access to 4 Vindicates usually solves this problem. Even with a Plague on the table, I can still play Mother of Runes, Jotun Grunt, and Meddling Mage. Mother of Runes can crush the Darkblast defense that sometimes gets sideboarded in, as well as stops Confidants from attacking and neutralizes Nantuko Shades. Mother of Runes also protects my guys against StP and Vindicate and I would say that they are my MVP in this matchup.
Other than that, I usually have solid matchups against other aggro variants as well, although I don't dominate these matchups like I do against decks like Psychatog and Gro. Which brings me to another point... looking at the lists on SCG for recent tournament reports, it seems that Goblins, Gro, and Solidarity are the biggest 3 contenders. Considering that I have extremely favorable matchups against Gro and Solidarity, Goblins is the only matchup that would give me problems. I think my deck performs well enough against Goblins that if I were to beat the estimated 30% of "random" decks in the first few rounds of Swiss, I could easily Top 8 with my deck (with chances of placing even higher once I make Top 8).
That said, aggro other than Goblins is the area that is most difficult, although my deck doesn't completely roll to anything. The thing about my deck is the consistency... it has very great draws and doesn't have bad mulligans very often. When the deck does have bad draws, it's usually because of land (in the opening hand, low land count or incorrect color sources) The deck is extremely consistent from start to finish... performing well early-game, mid-game, and late-game. Most aggro comes on strong early game but tends to weaken considerably mid-late game. Decks like Faerie Stompy are often very inconsistent as well. Engineered Explosives does a great job of neutralizing WW/Angel Stompy, Zoo, and other extremely aggressive aggro builds. Running 6 spot removal spells, 4 Stormscape Apprentices, 3 Mother of Runes, and 2 Jitte's maindeck help my aggro matchups considerably too. I think larger cc aggro decks are usually easier to beat than the lower cc aggro decks due to the speed and control of Fish (Stormscape Apprentice will tap out large creatures the same as it would tap out a Silver Knight).
I really don't see why Fish is not only underplayed, but not played at all (in the Legacy metagame). It utilizes some of the best of what Legacy has to offer, running off the same low cc engine that tournament winning decks use (like Gro). I think the problem Fish has had so far is the variants that people have tried... UR Fish seems extremely underpowered in an aggro heavy metagame. Given that, I think UWb Fish has access to much better cards (at least for Legacy). Probably the biggest problem UR and UW Fish has is Goblins, due to a lack of Engineered Plagues, keeping it from being competitive. There is such a large amount of synergy running U, W, and B in the same deck. Duress compliments Meddling Mage well, for example. I can easily see why a deck like Vintage UR Fish would never survive in a Legacy metagame (I don't think any of the creatures in that deck have a toughness greater than 1, and I think Voidmage Prodigy was the only creature with a power greater than 1). Thanks to Coldsnap, the addition of Jotun Grunt gives UWb Fish the large body that builds like UR Fish lack.
Fish is usually seen as being great against Combo and weak against aggro, since results in Vintage prove so. The thing is... Legacy is not Vintage. I believe my deck has great success against aggro. I do not dominate these matchups but I'm also not dominated. Cards that are relatively unused in Vintage, like Stormscape Apprentice and Mother of Runes, give me a much better game against aggro. I think an unwillingness of change in the Legacy format is the major cause for Fish not emerging into the metagame (you should read Nathan J. Xaxson's article on SCG).
If my deck has amazing results against 2 of the top 3 most successful decks in Legacy (the top 3 successful decks are based off of recent tournament statistics), why would this decklist not stand a chance? Even against the 3rd most successful deck, my deck still has a very solid matchup against it. The ability to win the early game matches against what is considered to be "random" decks is probably the largest obstacle this deck needs to overcome, beating out decks like Br Sui, Angel Stompy, RGSA, and Deadguy Ale in early rounds so that it can begin to compete against decks like Gro, Threshold, and Solidarity. I will continue to work on this deck. I have yet to compete in a Legacy tournament but I hope that I can enter the scene soon and start giving this deck some greatly deserved attention. It's the fact that I see absolutely no Fish decks anywhere in the metagame at all that intrigues me the most. I mean, I've hardly received any views or feedback to my Fish post on one of the most popular Legacy forums. I am looking forward to piloting this deck in competitive play in the near future.
EDIT:
In response to xsockmonkeyx, I've tried Top before (when I tried the deck with maindeck Counterbalance). The Top just doesn't do enough to be worth the valuable card space. When you first draw the Top, it's like a 2cc Brainstorm at sorcery speed that doesn't even cantrip unless you put the Top back on top, gaining absolutely no card advantage at all. Over the course of time, and especially in combination with fetchlands, it can increase consistency. However, I don't believe my deck has consistency issues and I would never replace Brainstorm with Top. And like you said, Top isn't pitchable to FoW but Brainstorm is. If you look at the decklist, there really isn't anything that the deck can afford to drop to fit additional Tops in besides maybe the Vindicates. Personally, I'd rather run maindeck answers to artifacts/enchantments (as well as an increased amount of creature spot removal) rather than the Top. I'd rather run maindeck Pithing Needles over the Top if I had the space. Top does work well with Confidant, but the deck itself works well with Confidant... the deck runs 19 1cc spells and 17 2cc spells.
I appreciate your feedback. If not for the fact that I had already tried it and found it unessecary, I would consider it.
EDIT:
I've been running the 2 Riptide Laboratory's for such a long time in this deck. When I had originally put them in, they seemed golden. I had alot of matchups where they got used. The deck has changed significantly since then and I am finding myself using the ability less and less often.
The Mother of Runes somewhat negate the need for the protection.
Bouncing up a Confidant still comes up every so often, which is good.
Bouncing up a Meddling Mage after a Duress doesn't happen very often at all for the fact that Duress costs 1cc, the bounce effect requires 3cc (if you count the Laboratory itself), and replaying Meddling Mage costs another 2cc. In total, the cost of that is 6cc, which can take 2-3 turns to acomplish (4 on the first turn). While it is great synergy, it is cumbersome and not used often.
I think that Volrath's Stronghold is a better choice.
The Stronghold has a slight contradiction with the Jotun Grunts but I actually think it has positive synergy with them since you can sac it before it accumulates too many counters (and before it returns too many targets in your graveyard to your library) and then replay it again next turn.
The Stronghold just has far more uses throughout the entirety of the matchup than the Laboratory's do. I believe that the Stronghold's will give the deck a greater consistency.
Cabal Therapy was mentioned in this thread before and I declined the idea. However, it has amazing synergy with the Strongholds, can be used to sacrifice a Confidant since they cannot be bounced via Riptide Laboratory anymore, and will be more useful against Goblins. They still give me an insight to the opponent's hand so that I can better play my Meddling Mages and countermagic while having the ability to hit multiple cards with a single cast (creating a similar card advantage as Hymn to Tourach).
The largest problem with Cabal Therapy's is their negative synergy with the Jotun Grunt's. However, sacrificing a creature does replace Therapy so the actual graveyard slot is still there. The other thing is that it's only a 4-of in the deck, so it's not a huge clash against the Grunt. It actually seems ideal to run them with Jotun Grunt, since you can sac the Grunts after combat rather than sac'ing them at the beginning of your next upkeep.
I believe the Cabal Therapy will be amazing... but I think it's going to reduce a little consistency of the deck. The deck already runs 4 Meddling Mages so the Therapy's are just going to increase the decks dependancy on great playskill, luck, and the necessity of knowing exactly what the opponent is playing. However, it gives the deck potentially more than 4 single discard effects which it has with the Duress. This alone should make up for any lack of consistency the card may have.
As noted above, I think this card will improve my Goblin matchup. For the Goblin matchup, I would probably drop 4 Force of Will for the 4 Engineered Plagues, as opposed to dropping 4 Duress like I used to, due to the fact that Aether Vials render them worthless (and the card disadvantage they create can often be a problem against Goblins). The deck runs 7 maindeck 1cc creatures, 4 StP, and 4 Daze, so stopping a first turn Lackey shouldn't be a problem without the FoW. Cabal Therapy should prove to do alot more in this matchup than the FoW would.
I need to play with Cabal Therapy alot before I become more skilled with it but I believe that it has a much greater potential than Duress has in this deck.
Another thing that I've noticed in testing is that the deck doesn't usually need the 2 sideboarded Vindicates. When the deck does need them, it is usually to stop artifacts and enchantments rather than give the deck additional creature removal. Pithing Needle usually does what Vindicate is intended for at a much cheaper cc. The ability to hit lands is useful but, again, Pithing Needle usually does what the Vindicates would be intended for anyway.
This brings me to running either Serenity in their place, or 1 Serenity and 1 Engineered Explosives. Both Serenity and Engineered Explosives can hit artifacts/enchantments although Serenity does it for cheaper and does it more effectively. The Explosives can also hit creatures though. I haven't tested this to know whether or not I'd rather run the extra Explosives or not and whether or not cutting 1 Perish would be an option. For now, I'll keep the Serenity/Explosives/Perish at 2/2/2 and test them to see how often each get sided in and how many I actually need to side in for those matchups.
I've also been considering running 1 Plains in the deck. The reason being is that it can be fetched in response to a Blood Moon, allowing me the slim possibility of topdecking into a Serenity and actually being able to play it. The ability to be protected against Wasteland can be nice as well. Since the deck doesn't actually hardcast 8 of the 20 blue spells in the deck and since the deck was currently running 7 blue sources, 6 white sources, and 5 black sources, I think Tundra would be the best card to cut.
Changes to the deck are as follows (and edited in the original decklist):
MD
-1 Tundra
-2 Riptide Laboratory
-4 Duress
+1 Plains
+2 Volrath's Stronghold
+4 Cabal Therapy
SB
-2 Vindicate
+2 Serenity
EDIT:
The Volrath's Strongholds were very useful but a bit slow. I playtested with some Wastelands and liked the extra reach it gave me.
MD
-1 Polluted Delta
-2 Volrath's Stronghold
+3 Wasteland
There is a much better discussion for this deck at TMD. I posted it there and the thread got kinda popular. There is alot more discussion of this deck and similar builds of UWb Fish there so if anyone is interested, the deck can be found there:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=29779.0
Hanni
09-10-2006, 07:25 AM
I'm sorry for the double post but I decided to simply post in this thread rather than create a whole new thread. I've been working on this deck over at TMD, since the deck had more interest over there, and it has gone through a significant amount of changes.
Anyway, I've done a great deal of playtesting since I originally posted it here and I've tweaked it accordingly. The results keep getting better and better. Here are the current differences from the most recent version of the deck posted in this thread as opposed to my current version of the deck:
MD
-2 Scrubland
-3 Wasteland
-4 Stormscape Apprentice
-1 Daze
-4 Cabal Therapy
-2 Vindicate
+1 Polluted Delta
+1 Island
+3 Aether Vial
+2 Counterspell
+4 Duress
+2 Azorius Guildmage
+3 Serum Visions
SB
-2 Serenity
-1 Pithing Needle
+2 Vindicate
+1 Engineered Explosives
I will edit the original decklist in this post to reflect these changes.
At any rate, I felt that while Wasteland gave the deck great reach, especially in combination with Vindicate, but that it didn't do much to help the decks manabase. The B/w Deadguy and B/r Sui matchups were much better than they were in previous builds of the deck but they were still difficult. The deck may run only 15 lands now, but the 3 Aether Vial replace 3 lands and do it well. The deck is ran off of such a low cc curve that 15 lands suits it sufficiently... the deck only needs 2 lands. With the addition of Vial, the deck has a much smoother manabase (and it runs 19 creatures). The deck doesn't need Vial and lategame Vials are usually retarded, thus why I run 3 and not 4. They do a considerable amount for the deck and I would be glad to go into more detail about it if anyone would like me to.
2 Azorius Guildmage replace 4 Stormscape Apprentice. The Guildmages can use their ability(ies) the turn they come into play (usually requiring Vial in this deck) and they put up a much better clock. The ability is expensive but isn't relied upon and the fact that it doesn't tap to use it allows it to remain a clock. The main reason for his inclusion over Stormscape is because of his second ability... Pithing Needle built into a beatstick is pretty nice, especially maindeck. I really don't think that the deck needs the heavy 4 Stormscapes for creature control with 2 Azorius Guildmages and 3 Serum Visions to dig for StP, Jitte, etc. It's fun when they come down instant speed via Vial to stop Pernicious Deed.
Serum Visions increases the consistency of the deck by helping the deck dig into specific answers and smooth out draws. The fact that cantrips fill the graveyard work nicely with Jotun Grunt. Serum Visions improves all matchups because of this... against IGGy Pop, it can dig for Meddling Mages, against Goblins it can dig for Engineered Plague, etc. It helps prevent the deck from drawing into worthless cards like Vial (either late game or if another 1 is already on the table). It helps smooth out the manabase as well, digging in to the correct color sources or sufficient amount of lands. It also does the opposite, helping me toss away lands that I don't need so that I can draw into more spells. It's an all around great card. I think that 7-8 cantrips and 4 Dark Confidant is ideal and I'd much rather run 7-8 cantrips and 4 Dark Confidant rather than 14 cantrips. 7 cantrips in this deck works sufficiently enough for me.
Cabal Therapy is still up for debate for the spot of Duress but I reverted back to Duress because it's more consistent. A key importance of this deck is to establish early game dominance but Therapy doesn't usually do anything on turn 1 and Duress does.
I really felt that the deck was better off without Vindicate. It's not only a bit slow, but there are better replacements, such as Counterspell and Azorius Guildmage. Without Vindicates maindeck, and especially now with Vial, I felt that 2 Counterspells were necessary. I tried Voidmage Prodigy for a while (since I run Vial) but I decided that Counterspell was better for what it was intended for. The 4/3/2 split of FoW/Daze/Counterspell has been working beautifully.
As far as sideboarding purposes go, I found myself only siding the full 4 Needles in against Landstill, Rift, and Tog (and the first 2 seem underplayed), so I decided to go with a 3rd Engineered Explosives. Especially now that the deck has 2 Azorius Guildmages, I felt that 3 Needles were sufficient. Serenity was a decent option but I usually sided Needle into matches where it came in so it had a little anti-synergy there. Without maindeck Vindicates, I felt that they were needed in the sideboard, so I replaced the Serenity for them. The Vindicates are important for removing problematic lands like Tabernacle, which Serenity cannot, while it still hits artifacts/enchantments (albeit only spot removal and not mass sweep) and it still hits creatures too.
Again, if a mod could rename this thread, I would greatly appreciate it.
Comments/Suggestions/etc are welcome.
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=29779.0
The link above has about 4 pages of content on this deck, so feel free to check there if your curious about the progression of this deck so far.
EDIT:
MD
-3 Aether Vial
+1 Tundra
+1 Underground Sea
+1 Serum Visions
I felt that Serum Visions helped smooth over the manabase alot better than Vial. I reduced my threat density down from 19 to 16, so dropping Vial seemed appropriate. The early game tempo boost of Vial was great but they were often deadweight later on and I felt that 2 more lands and an extra Serum Visions would help me dig for more important spells and make it easier for me to play my 3cc sideboard cards.
SB
-2 Vindicate
+2 Serenity
laststepdown
09-12-2006, 04:18 PM
Is this the archetype that got labeled as Eon Blue Apocalypse @ the Mana Leak Open?
Hanni
09-12-2006, 04:55 PM
No, it shouldn't be, I've been working on this deck for like 10+ months and it after I dropped the Rebels out of it (Ramosian Sergeant and Whipcorder), I've been calling it Fish ever since. I haven't taken this deck to a major event yet because I have never really had the time or opportunity to and I mostly just playtest on MWS.
The deck played at TML Open is different. It has some of the same elements as this deck, but alot of it is different. That deck can be found here:
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=18658
Whatever the case, Fish was a deck that was completely unplayed or messed with (at least to my knowledge) the whole time I've been working on it and no one ever seemed to think it would work... but lately, I've been seeing many people building UWb Fish decks. I've been an avid believer that the deck type is simply amazing and I'm glad that it's popularity is starting to take off somewhat. I guess I won't be the one credited for designing the deck but at least my favorite deck type is starting to make appearances. I think that UWb Fish is going to be the evolution of Gro (Threshold) because they both play very similar except it isn't susceptible to graveyard hate, has a better game against Goblins than UGw Gro has (post board), and has a better game against Solidarity than UGr Gro has, among other advantages (like being able to run Jitte). The deck also performs very well against both UGw and UGr Gro. Most of this is personal opinion, so please don't flame me for it.
I'm speculating that UWb Fish will start to make alot of Top 8 finishes within the next year or so. I'm hoping that I can make it to the SCG Duel for Duals next month and do just that.
The Rack
09-16-2006, 04:41 AM
I vaguely remember playing against this deck over apprentice about 5 months ago. What are your reasons behind removing Whipcorder and Sergeant?? It was an absolutely awesome deck how it was. What matchups are better than before?
Hanni
09-16-2006, 01:34 PM
My reasoning for removing the Ramosian Sergeant and Whipcorder were because of Jotun Grunt. When I found out Jotun Grunt was going to be released with Coldsnap, I knew that he was exactly what the deck needed. I wanted him maindeck so I removed the Rebels for Stormscape Apprentices and Jotun Grunts. The deck has been evolving since then and I don't even run Stormscape Apprentices now.
The Rebels really weren't that great... supporting a 3cc recruit cost can be difficult in this deck. Tapping out a 2/2 to tap out an opponent's creature is a waste of muscle. The deck functioned well before but it functions a hundred times better now. The Rebels were just too slow... the deck is considerably faster now. Mother of Runes does so much for the deck while a 2cc 4/4 is exactly what the deck needed in the muscle department.
My Solidarity matchup is better now... I can dig for Meddling Mage with Serum Visions and Jotun Grunt prevents them from decking me with Brain Freeze.
My Goblins matchup is much better now... Mother of Runes is a much better chump blocker for Goblin Lackey and can also chump large Piledrivers. Jotun Grunt outsizes them, pushing damage through or blocking effectively. Serum Visions helps dig for Engineered Plague, Umezawa's Jitte, and enough lands to play them through Wastelands/Rishadan Ports.
The Threshold matchup is much better now, Jotun Grunt can block Nimble Mongeese and live or trade evenly with Werebears post threshold. It also depletes their graveyard, removing threshold. Jotun Grunt is a house in this matchup. Mother of Runes can block Nimble Mongeese or prevent my creatures from being spot removaled. This matchup was good before but it's much better now.
Any Loam based deck or deck relying on the graveyard gets hosed by Jotun Grunt. Mother of Runes is amazing against aggro decks but also gives me spot removal protection against pretty much any deck in the format.
Basically, the new version of the deck is simply better. All of the decks matchups are much better than they were with the Rebels.
I like the new version of this deck. It looks very solid. Do you have any matchup percentages?
Hanni
09-22-2006, 11:45 PM
As far as actual results go, the deck (slightly different version) placed Top 4 at a tournament in Michigan:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=30167.0
The guy who piloted the deck, KrzyMoose from TMD, was one of guys that was also working on this deck with me over at TMD. His list is a little different that mine but the differences are minimal.
I will be taking this deck to the SCG Duel for Duals coming up, so I'll post my results from that after it happens.
As far as matchup percentages go, this deck is extremely similar to U/G/x Threshold. Both decks are blue-based aggro/control decks, albiet there are some distinct differences, the matchups my deck has against the field are similar to Thresholds.
Against Solidarity, the deck does extremely well (most combo decks, for that matter). I'd say about 80/20 or 70/30 game 1, possibly 70/30 or 60/40 game 2 depending on what hate they sideboard in. Jotun Grunt works well against Brainfreeze (unless they force me to draw a card), while Meddling Mage naming Brainfreeze is amazing (with Mother of Runes to protect against spot removal, though most lists I've seen run Evacuation), and Duress + countermagic make them fizzle very easily.
Against Threshold, it is somewhat of a "mirror match," except slightly different. Jotun Grunt effectively blocks/kills/survives Mongoose and evenly trades with Werebear when they have threshold, but also removes their threshold and is immune to 1 Lightning Bolt. Mother of Runes effectively blocks Mongoose or Werebear while providing spot removal protection for my guys. Jitte gives me an advantage in the combat situation, especially since I run more aggro than they do, while Duress gives me a huge advantage against them (Duress is amazing vs blue based control and aggro/control). I believe that 4 Confidant + 8 Cantrips is superior to a 12-16 cantrip engine, so my drawpower is either as good or better than theirs. I believe this matchup is about 60/40 or better game 1, and about 60/40 game 2 depending (I bring in Perish, they bring in either Engineered Explosives or Pyroclasm). Jotun Grunt is a complete house against Threshold.
Goblins is obviously the most difficult matchup for my deck out of the Top 3 Tier 1 decks, though the matchup is much easier than alot of people think it is. Game 1 is roughly 50/50, with slight favorability for the Goblins player. Depending on how nutty of a draw they get or I get is a big determining factor. If I can keep the Goblin player from exploding, I can usually win the matchup (Confidant gives card advantage, Jitte gives dominant board control, etc). Mother of Runes helps in this matchup, Jotun Grunt gives me a nice body to attack and block with. I've won game 1's before by a landslide and I've lost game 1's by a landslide as well, so it's really up in the air. Games 2 and 3 are about 60/40 or better for me, as I bring in 4 Engineered Plague (in place of Duress) and the 3rd Umezawa's Jitte. Even with versions running Dralnu's Crusade, 7 cards that nearly "auto-win" are a bit much for them to handle (and I can counter the Crusade). 1 Engineered Plague is enough to hinder their development enough for me to easily win while 2 is game over. 1 Umezawa's Jitte typically does the same thing unless they explode too fast and Jitte doesn't help me in time (this rarely happens though).
All in all, I believe I have very solid matchups against the Top 3 Tier 1 decks. I would be very comfortable (and confidant of placing Top 8) with a metagame composed of only those 3 decks. My deck handles them well.
The difficulty becomes a few of the Tier 2 decks out (generally considered random). Overall an aggro/control deck usually has solid matchups against a large majority of the field (similar to how Threshold has solid matchups against nearly everything overall), but there are a few pitfalls for me.
B/w Deadguy and B/r Sui can be a pain. Black based control decks (discard) usually have advantages against blue based control. I do run cards that provide resiliance against it (Duress, solid draw engine, Daze, etc), but the also pack land destruction. My deck is a 3 color deck with a 17 land base, so sometimes it can be difficult. It's not an impossible matchup, far from it, but it is a difficult one (more difficult than any of the Top 3 Tier 1 decks). I'd say that it is around 50/50 depending on the draws.
Anything with Chalice of the Void can be difficult game 1 (Faerie Stompy), but game 2 I have 3 Engineered Explosives and 2 Serenity in the board. Faerie Stompy can be extremely incosistent and it also has a higher, tighter cc curve that my deck can take advantage of (Daze, etc). I don't think Faerie Stompy is an extremely difficult matchup, but it can be a pain from time to time. Other decks with Chalice (Stax and Artifact Aggro 5/3 for example) are something to watch for. Not sure about matchup percentages because I haven't playtested these matchups extensively, so I won't provide any.
Angel Stompy and Affinity can be difficult matchups as well. Both decks have better aggro, so it is basically dependant upon how well I can stop them from exploding early game. After sideboard, Engineered Explosives works well against Angel Stompy and Serenity works well against Affinity. Not sure what my matchup percentages here are either, though they are probably around 50/50. I've beaten both and lost to both and I haven't playtested enough games to really give a solid concrete matchup percentage, though 50/50 seems about accurate from my current results.
My deck does extremely well against all versions of Tog, does very well against board control decks like Rift and Landstill, has solid matchups against most beatdown decks (G/R Survival Advantage), and pretty solid matchups against pretty much everything else that is random (like Zoo).
EDIT:
And on a sidenote, when Time Spiral comes out, the 2 Azorius Guildmages WILL be replaced with 2 Serra Avengers (and no, the deck does not need Vial to support her). I will be using Azorius Guildmages for the SCG Duel for Duals but I will be using Serra Avengers for future tournaments. I edited my original decklist with Serra Avenger in place of Azorius Guildmage.
valor
10-02-2006, 04:04 AM
I dont know if this topic is too old to post in but its probably better than restarting it. (Sorry about it not being organized I had a lot of ideas (good and bad) and decided to put them all here, but that involved about 4-5 edits)
A few things I noticed when playing this deck:
It can support 3-4 wastelands easily. (No one runs them here but they really should)
From that Mana Drain topic, Serenity is awesome in the board. I also tried Kataki, War's Wage but I think he's not quite as effective.
I was really tempted to try Weathered Wayfarer but Mom wound up being A LOT better in that spot. Someone suggested Mystic Penitent but I fell that the strength of this deck is that it has all the benefits of Thresh while not relying as much on the grave. Same goes with Cabal Pit.
Other thigns that have been suggested for the board are, and Ill just throw out the ideas even though most of them suck:
Worship - nice with Mom but is pretty much overkill
Geddon - Daze setup can be nice but it hurts us a lot more than them. Also its kinda cool to sac a fetch in response to wind up with a land though. Could be good with Wayfarer but not worth the change imo.
WoG - I dont see the need in this format.
Children of korlis/Angels Grace: Pretty cool vs. Goblins but seems a little unncessary, with Plagues in the board already.
Glowrider: Makes the combo match really good, but its already REALLY good, and while it does kill thresh that match isnt bad enough to warrant its inclusion.
As you already know Jotun Grunt kills people.
Counterbalance seemed to be not that worthwhile for me, it never really seemed to work as well as I'd hoped. Usually required more setup than a Counterspell and still only countered one spell.
Muddle The Mixture seemed to be pretty promising, and acutally seemed quite interesting. I rarely am countering something non-instant or sorcery by the time counterspell mana is open, as Swords/Mom/Jitte deals with most problem creatures.
A real sideboard bomb seems to be True Believer. Basically stops Iggy and Solidarity dead, not like the Combo matchup isnt already awesome, but he helps out with the random Burn decks that Ive seen a lot of also.
A new time spiral card that seems really interesting is Flagstones of Trokair. Replaces the basic plains, is even better vs. Wastelands if you see them, the only downside being that you cant fetch it out, but I've played this a lot and have yet to find a situation where I wished I could fetch the basic plains.
Vindicate is something that I have really wanted to try, and seems to be worth considering. As is maindeck Stifle (Azorious Guildmage sucks btw imo) vs. Duress, which is a close call.
Also I noticed someone said that this deck cannot beat affinity preboard, which I found to be completely untrue. It seemed to actually be favorable, at minimum 50/50 but seemingly a lot better. Post board Serenity, Null Rod, and True Believer (for Disciple) shut them down completely.
I really feel that this has the potential to do really well in this format. It has the answers to a lot of decks that are commonly played, especially grave hate, and to me seems to be superior to Thresh in just about every way, having played both extensively. It just doesnt have the weakness to the graveyard hate.
Hanni
10-09-2006, 01:37 AM
Well, I placed 10th at the Duel for Duals day 2 and something like 16th or so day 1, with a match loss day 1 (forgot to put RGF FoW back in deck before presenting it to my opponent to cut) and a ton of misplays (mainly forgetting the upkeep for Grunt) that costed me Top 8 placings (I had a great chance both days).
Is this deck going to get put into the Proven Decks forum now? I'll write up a primer and my tournament report for the Duel for Duals if necessary.
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