[Deck] Tide Stax

[Bane of the Living]

Well I've been playing Angel Stax for quite awhile now. I did ok with it but I also scrubbed out pretty bad on a couple occassions. I wanted to try another color to go for with stax. Black seemed promising thanks to cards like Braids and Nether Void. Red has Wildfire and Goblin Welder, Blue however has the pieces I feel have been missing from the deck. Card draw. Anyone with experience in brown.dec knows the problem is usually top decking into terrible cards, and loosing the game because your opponent gets a small window. Card draw can keep the stax deck consistant enough to maintain pressure. Heres the list Ive been working on.

There are many new cards in Time Spiral to play in the deck.

30 Mana
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadin Port
6 Island
3 Flooded Strand
2 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Mishras Factory
2 Academy Ruins
4 Mox Diamond


18 Artifacts
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Tangle Wire
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Smokestack

12 Blue
2 Mindslaver
4 Propaganda
4 Parallax Tide
2 Fact or Fiction

Sideboard
2 Mana Maze
4 Arcane Laboratory
2 Stasis
4 Veldaken Shackles
3 Bottled Cloister

This is the base I started with. Basically Angel Stax with the white removed and replaced with blue. Ghostly Prison became Propaganda. I needed to replace Wrath of God with something good. I settled on Parralax Tide. Turns out this little wonder is something Stax has been missing forever.

- Along with Wastelands and Ports, destoys manabases.
- Increases damage from Tangle Wire and Propaganda.
- Increases odd of destroying non land perms with Smokestack.
- Increases odds of Trinisphere Lock.

This card is becoming irreplaceable in the deck. I would love for it to be a 4 of. It helps do what Tangle Wire does with tapping out opponents to resolve important spells such as Smokestack.

Exalted Angel has been replaced with Veldaken Shackles. There are some good reasons for this.. There are also bad parts..

The bad part is you dont have life gain in the deck or turbo angel to help beat quick combo decks. The good part is the deck plays NO CREATURES. That makes for alot of dead cards in your opponents deck. You no longer have to worry about having Chalice out for Swords, protecting your angel. Shackles helps steal perms away from an opponent under Smokestack, just like Wrath did. But you can sack the creature you stole each turn and eat away your opponents board in short order.

Fact or Fiction gives much needed card draw to the deck. Its the biggest reason to play the blue splash. I was going to try Thoughtcast with Seat of Synods but I didnt want to make the Island count too low for shackles. Thirst for Knowledge could be tried, you can play it under Tangle Wire during your upkeep, which is nice. I also considered Standstill.

The last piece of blue goodness to make note of is Stasis. It can be played with mana up basically to survive till you draw some more vital lock pieces. With Tangle Wire/Trinisphere/Smokestack out, it can really change the outcome of the game. I like it as a 2 of right now. Not sure if its worth going to 4 and playing some Forbiden City.

Let me know what you guys think. Im not really sure how this deck will play in retrospect to Angel Stax but I really wanted to try something new and it seems like all the right pieces are there for a well greased machine.

[Angel of Despair]

Well, I like this deck .You are gonna have to let me play with it, instead of against it. It is quite frustrating to play against it. I definately want to see more of this. It looks promising.
AoD

[PunkRocker1134]

I have question. How do you win? Minus Vedalken Shackles stealing a creature and winning. If they don't play a creature don't you deck or something?

[Brushwagg]

My biggest question is where's Meditate? There's nothing like drawing 4 cards and having your opponent sack twice. I've tried it out in Stax and it's nuts. It should be the reason you are running any kind of Blue.

[MasterBlaster]

My biggest question is where's Meditate?

OH MY GOD!

I'm no Stax player, but that sounds like an incredible card for Stax. I can't believe I've never heard that suggested for a Stax deck before.

[xsockmonkeyx]

My biggest question is where's Meditate? There's nothing like drawing 4 cards and having your opponent sack twice.

Eater of Days is also good for that same reason

[Lego]

I'm really confused, does this have any way to win against anything? If you're on the draw, all I have to do is never do anything and I win. Even if you're on the play, I can make a valiant effort until you cast a Fact or Fiction, then do nothing and win.

Granted, not all your opponents are going to know you've got no way to win, so many will scoop to a hard lock, but that seems like a risky hope for any large tournament. You're going to get the occasional player who won't scoop until they see a win condition.

*Shrug* seems stupid to not at least play a single win condition. Play Chronatog :wink:

[GoTreK]

Absolutely agree with LAM, if your opponent knows this deck you simply have no wincondition... Let alone those decks that don't even run a Creature!
I think you should add Morphling instead of shackles. It's actually a quite obvious choice and I don't know any better wincondition then him for U. Eater of Days is only playable when you established the hard lock and therefore I think Morphling is much better.
Btw Meditate should definately be tested!!

edit:
@bane
another advantage of playing Morphling is that apart from WoG (or similar stuff) every removal your opponent plays is a dead card as well! :)

[midnightAce]

It's possible to fit alternate kill conditions such as a single Factory or a single Cephalid Coliseum, even Rath's Edge since the deck's already supporting 3 Crusibles.

[Vimes]

If you played a single copy of Traumatize, than you wouldn't need your opponent's creatures to win. I know the double U casting cost might be tough, but it really doesn't matter when you cast it. The entire point is just that it forces your opponent to play his creatures.

[Lanfeng]

If you played a single copy of Traumatize, than you wouldn't need your opponent's creatures to win. I know the double U casting cost might be tough, but it really doesn't matter when you cast it. The entire point is just that it forces your opponent to play his creatures.

thats slower then neverending torment, albeit it is faster then reito lantern ftw

anyways, yea you need to win, and against solidarity there are no creatures to steal, sooo...

you just sit there

morphling is too mana intensive
and everything else gets killed
soooo....run...something?

[GoTreK]

I don't see why Morphling should be too mana intensive. The most important abilities for us are evasion and non-targetable (does this word exist? xD) and that's just 2 Mana. That shouldn't be a problem I think, especially not with that much lands...

[Syco_Tr0pic]

I have very little experience with Stax, so everything I'm about to say may be just a bootload of crap, but Karn seems a good option for a single win condition, too. With him in the deck you could just work hard to stablish the lockdown, knowing that sooner or later you'll be able to beat face with animated lock pieces.

[GoTreK]

Yeah that might be a good choice imho, but the problem is that Karn can be removed... When you run only one that could be your downfall. Maybe 2 Morphling / 1 Karn is a good split.
I have to admit that I have little experience with Stax either, but it seems a better choice than Shackles by far!

[Atwa]

What about Ankh of Mishra as a secondary kill condition?

When disrupting your opponents mana base, this little gem proves it's weight in gold most of the time (I know, a card doesn't weight that much, but you see where I'm going).

Ankh also shines against decks which pack fetchland (our entire format) and goes crazy with Paralax Tide (old school pirates anyone?).

Meditate also seems like a card which needs to be tested in my opinion.

[Warmonger]

Notice that Morphling, Karn, Chronatog nad whatevah cna be easily stopped with single Needle + random crap kept on opponent's hand. I suggest adding various kill conditions (eg. each of them) to avoid loss due to this stupid thing dropped just by the way.

[Machinus]

Why don't you just play Armageddon?

[Goblin Snowman]

With only 10 Islands, have you ever been screwed with Shackles? I played a few games with it, and I only had 1-2 Islands in too many games, which while fine against Goblins, doesn't work against really anything else. I second Factory in this deck, perhaps in the Port slot, but you do know the deck better than I do. Other win conditions include Karn, Razormane Masticore, Eater of Days, Cronotog, Meloku the Broken Mirror, or something tech, like Aboshan, Cephalid Emperor. Also, has Arcum Dagsson been considered. He's not likely to live long, but he does a Tinker every turn.

[GoTreK]

I don't get why Armageddon should be in here... Explanation?

Mishras is a fairly suboptimal choice I'm afraid, because the Wasteland-lock doesn't work anymore then. Adding it to the deck would actually mean that the most important cards namely CoW + stack can't be abused anymore.

[Goblin Snowman]

I never said drop Wasteland for it, I know how to play Magic. I advocated dropping Port if anything, since he has Tide for basics already.

[Benie Bederios]

Allright some comment

1. Meditate isn't played in Staxx anymore since Thirst for Knowledge. Although Meditate gives you 4 cards and is fun if you've got one of you lockpieces it is horrid without it. Thirst for Knowledge( or in this case Fact or Fiction) is always good. Meditate is a winmore and unneeded in Staxx nowadays, it only was used because Fact or Fiction wasn't printed/banned.

2. What up with all those random cards. 2 Stasis without being able to take advantage of it. You don't have bounce to be able to bounce it EOT. So your opponent will always untap first. If you use Chronatog( I'm not saying you must) it is atleat a hard lock with Sphere/Tangle Wire. And if you use that land that you can sack for any color mana, you can keep it in play. Shackles is also quite random with only 10 Island to use it. And it doesn't help with the real trouble of the deck: The first couple of turns.

[GoTreK]

@Goblin

Sorry, I should have used the complete name: The card I meant --> Ank of Mishra

[Syco_Tr0pic]

@ Warmonger
For what I've seen thus far, Needle wouldn't be a trump card for Karn. By the time you would want to drop Karn, the game should already be locked (Stack + Crucible) and win from there would just be a formality. Even if you can't remove the needle (wich is doubtful in a winning situation), at least he himself is a respectable 4/4 beatstick. 5 turns under lockdown and Karn alone would be enough to finish the job. Screw P.Needle in this case.

[PunkRocker1134]

I would opt for Mishra's factory as a 2 of. If they needle it fine, lock them out and they'll have to sac it sooner or later. Plus it recurrs via Crucible and can block against aggro.

[Bryant Cook]

God's eye, gate to the reilki. Best win condition in stacks ever. It allows you to come back if you ever lose the permanent race. Allows a smokestack on 2 without sacking your board. They all tap for wire... ect. There's a million reasons to run 1 God's eye 1 Chephalid colleusem.

[scrumdogg]

Good idea, but it makes you absolutely reliant on Crucible - there is a fine line between taking advantage of a strong theme in the deck & risking being cut out completely. If the Deck is going to run Stasis, why are there no other cards that perpetuate it? Where is the Chronotog or the Meloku? If the Deck really wants to run Tide, where is the Ankh of Mishra & the Stifles? The build, as it stands, is pretty cool, but wicked unfocused and , as noted, completely lacking in a win condition (inadvertent lose when your opponent has to mull? how sad....). That being said, this deck has the potential to be stupid good, but it needs to decide what it is going to accomplish & how.

List of win conditions that don't depend on your opponent (those unreliable bastards):
Critters:
Morphling
Karn
Chronotog
Meloku (keep returning lands for Stasis, making little flying Lava Darts that then sac to Stax anyone?)
Masticore

Lands:
Mishra's
Cephalid Coliseum
Faerie Conclave
Reiki, Dust in God's Eye
that flying land Affinity used (complete brain fart)

other:
Ankh of Mishra & Stifle (with Tides...upping Tides to 4)

[Syco_Tr0pic]

The Ankh/Tide type of finish sounds pretty cool, but I think it won't work properly. Tell you why:

1) Ankh will hurt you. A lot. (Crucible + Stack) + Ankh are not the best friends in the world, I've heard. Of course you could sacrifice it to the Stack, but if you're not killing the guy with it, then what's the point in using it?
It isn't exactly a combo with Ancient Tomb either ("fireblast me"). And wastelock isn't supposed to kill you, but the guy across the table.

2) Sometimes you will have the game locked already. Then there will be no lands enough to actually kill the opponent (or hurt him bad, for that matter) and you will wish any other efficient kill condition in place of that Ankh you just drew.

3) Tide is great to lock the game, but Ankh seems just "cute" here. You can claim that "Ankh is insane in the early game with all the fetches in the format", but this deck is all about early game bombs (3sphere, Wire, COTV). In fact, this decks wants to "skip" the early game with the lock pieces and drag the whole thing to a crawl. Ankh doesn't do that. Dealing damage is secondary to Stax, for what I know and taking unnecessary damage, reducing the short time you already have to stablish a lockdown against aggro doesn't look like a good plan either.

I didn't want to sound hash or anything. Sometimes I expose my ideas in a blunt way, sorry if I did that.
Once more, I have limited experience with Legacy Stax, but I love the concept and really want to see a prison deck translated and successful in this format. Sorry if I stated anything dumb.

[Goblin Snowman]

@Goblin

Sorry, I should have used the complete name: The card I meant --> Ank of Mishra

No problem, and yes, I agree that Anhk has no place in a deck that contains CoW. Cephalid Colliseum is an interesting idea, since it allow for crazy draw with Crucible.

[Volt]

I'm not really familiar with this deck, so this may be a terrible suggestion. How about Mishra Factories as a win condition?

[edit: Oops. Should have read whole thread more closely. Factories have already been suggested. Sorry.]

[Goblin Snowman]

I've been advocating Factories since I saw this deck. They are immune to nonswords removal (With CoW) and double as lands.

[Syco_Tr0pic]

Probably a couple of Factories (2-3) would do the deck some good. A much needed win condition (yes, they are slow, but who's in a hurry?) that goes well with CoW. It even can hold a goblin sometimes (I'm being optimistical here, assuming that neither Waste nor Port are coming from the other side, but you know what I mean).

[xsockmonkeyx]

IKarn seems a good option for a single win condition, too. With him in the deck you could just work hard to stablish the lockdown, knowing that sooner or later you'll be able to beat face with animated lock pieces.

Wouldnt attacking with your lock pieces break your lock because you are tapping them? Tapped 3shpere is turned off, arent Stack and Tangle Wire turned off as well?

[FireAndIce]

while it is true that 3sphere is turned off when tapped neither smokestack nor tangle wire is when tapped.

mishra's factory is the best kill condition for this deck for sure. however, something is definitely needed for teh early game and shackles is the card to play. combined with propaganda and other lock pieces we can slow the game down without a problem.

another creature that you can consider...razormane masticore. it is good against gobbos especially yet it gives your opponent something to do with that targeted removal. this is bad because we like to see the opponent stuck with dead cards.

in the end you really dont want to start to win until you have the game utterly on lock. this might mean that you may even need to use a smoketstack to destroy your pithing needle. a creature just takes away from the general game plan and destroys the virtual card advantage generated by playing creatureless.

[Bane of the Living]

I kinda forgot that I cut my only win conditions. Factories. I do need 2-3 so I need to rework the mana base. Shackles might be better off sideboarded. To increase the amount of Islands in play I would probably add 3 fetchlands.

Karn is a good idea. A white stax deck uses 3 as their win condition just placed well in a tourny. Im gonna try one for now, and one Morphing. Just because if the deck can pull him off its worth it.

One of the last blue lock/draw cards I wanted to ask other people about is Future Sight. Anyone thats had experience with the card knows how much undair card advantage is gained through this card. Its triple blue casting cost could be a pain but I think it might be good enough to replace Fact.

[Kadaj]

In my limited testing of this deck (5 games total tonight) Fact Or Fiction has been by far the strongest card so far for me. Keeping your hand loaded full of lockpieces is simply too good to underestimate. Future Sight might very well be just as good, and it is something worth testing, but I have a feeling Fact might be better, although Sight is a permanent you can sack to stax (not that you'd want to).

I tested the deck with 4 factories in place of Rishadan Port and it was still slow, although it could be serviceable. 3 factories might actually be better, just because you have card draw and Crucible to recur them... I still think you need a more robust and swift win condition though. Chronatog, Morphling, and or Karn all could fit this role and need testing. What would you recommend cutting?

[parallax]

You should probably consider adding Stifles. They work on fetchlands and combo with your Parallax Tides.

[Syco_Tr0pic]

Talking about what should or could be cut for the new win conditions (Karn and/or Morphling), I can only think about Shackles. I completely agree with Bane when he says that Shackles are better off sideboarded. Even more now, with the rising popularity of combo (and, with it, I hope, control shortly after), matchups where Shackles are less than stellar. It shines against beatdown, but that's about it. Once playing against beatdown, we can safely side them in, even taking out part of our win conditions for it.
Including fetchlands to increase the numbers of Islands we can get per game seems a good move, too

@Future Sight: I don't think Future Sight is a good option over Fact or Fiction. It's not even fair, in my opinion. Future Sight requiring UUU is almost uncastable, well, at least very annoying and "game plan altering" to cast. FoF, on the other hand, comes out faster, with only U in the cost, and gives you an average 3 cards right away, digging 5 ragardless, whereas Future Sight isn't that helpful if you get a land clump.

Just my $0.02.

[Bane of the Living]

Ok two big things...
Im testing Saprazzan Skerry vs. Fetchlands. Fetchlands means more lands w/ Crucible and better syngery for Shackles. Saprazzan double lands mean much easier Parallax Tides and possibly Future Sight of winnage. More double mana lands are good for a quick mana boost in the early game which is also important. What do you guys think?

I also considered Mana Severance and Belcher as a win condition. Severance is good on its own since casting it leaves you with amazing draws for the rest of the game. Belcher can be used several times to shoot at opponents as a win condition or at creatures to stay alive. Together they are lethal. Is this a good shell to put Severance Belcher back into?

I updated the first page and added a sinlge Morphling and 2 Factories as the current win conditions.

[quicksilver]

The thing that sucks about Saprazzan Skerry is that it comes into play tapped, slowing down more than it speeds you up.

[Togit460]

can you provide a general list about which cards out of belcher severence you'd want to take in, since it may turn the deck from prison to combo.

[Angel of Despair]

I also considered Mana Severance and Belcher as a win condition.

I do believe those were the cards he was speaking of.

[Bane of the Living]

30 Mana
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadin Port
6 Island
3 Flooded Strand
2 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Mishras Factory
2 Academy Ruins
4 Mox Diamond

20 Artifacts
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Tangle Wire
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Smokestack
2 Mindslaver

10 Blue
4 Propaganda
4 Parallax Tide
2 Fact or Fiction

Sideboard
2 Mana Maze
4 Arcane Laboratory
2 Chronotog Totem
4 Veldaken Shackles
3 Bottled Cloister

This is my build including the new Academy Ruins. I chose Mindslaver as my kill condition. It's quite possible to drop and activate mid game, once you get Academy Ruins you should win via slavelock. Paradox Haze looks interesting but Im not sure the aspect of multiple upkeeps is stong enough without other lock peices in place.

[fearphage]

Slavelock would require 12 mana per turn not including the Academy Ruins itself. This is possible indeed but a very late game play. Also I would split the fetches just to be cautious of needle. Combined with Ancient Tomb, the life loss of the fetches seems relevant. Hows that working for you? In which matchup would you side in the Bottled Cloister? Discard I assume? just curious

[Djelmo]

I don't get it the deck. (sorry, new to Legacy) Is it just a bunch of locks?

[kicks_422]

It's the fourth type of deck... Aggro, Control, Combo, and Prison... It aims to lock you out of your resources both now and succeeding ones that you'd manage to drop, effectively at that, by making you pay more for your spells (Trinisphere), smashing lands repeatedly (Wasteland) and then preventing you to cast what you could with what little mana you have (Chalice of the Void), and tapping you out (Tangle Wire) while at the same time making you sacrifice your board bit by bit (Smokestack) while you are relatively unaffected (Crucible of Worlds)...

If you want to learn about every nook and cranny of the deck concept though, you might want to look for Machinus' articles/threads regarding Stax on these forums...

[iOWN]

I experimented with different elements in Blue Stax for a little while, and here are some possibilities that I tried out:

Mana Vortex 1UU
Enchantment

When Mana Vortex comes into play, sacrifice a land.
At the beginning of each player's upkeep, that player sacrifices a land.
When there are no lands in play, sacrifice Mana Vortex.


Land Equilibrium 2UU
Enchantment

If an opponent who controls at least as many lands as you do would put a land into play, that player instead puts that land into play and then sacrifices a land.


I never thought of Tide, and it is probably better than Mana Vortex, although I like Land Equilibrium (lock?).

4 Mox Diamond
6 Island
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
3 Flooded Strand
1 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Parallax Tide
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Propaganda
2 Land Equilibrium

2 Sea Drake

- Land Equilibrium can act just like an instant-trigger Smokestack, making a much stronger lock.
- I prefer Thirst over FoF simply because it costs one less, making a common first turn play. Fact or Fiction digs deeper, but will usually net you the same amount of cards and only having the advantage of always getting at least one card out of the pile that you really need. I suppose later game FoF would be much better than Thirst, but it isn't late game that we're worried about, is it? Early game is when straight-aggro can win.
- Sea Drake's drawback is pretty much optional in this deck (Wasteland, Fetches, Coliseum, Tombs and Cities...) and is beneficial when you want an Equilibrium. Other than that it is just a big beater so you can actually win within a time limit.

[kicks_422]

Here's my build... After remembering about a certain card called Pendrell Mists to shore up the aggro MU, which is very synergistic with Parallax Tide and Propaganda, as well as everyone's favorite Smokestack... :tongue:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Faerie Conclave
4 Island
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Mox Diamond

3 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Chronatog Totem
4 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Propaganda
4 Pendrell Mists
4 Parallax Tide

SB
1 Trinisphere
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Defense Grid
9 ???

Chronatog Totem has also been very good for me, upping Stack to 2 then skipping a turn to clear their board...

I love winning with my opponent having no permanents in play... LOL... :tongue:

[Aggro_zombies]

I'm probably going to get chewed out for this, but has anyone besides kicks_422 considered Chronatog Totem? It seems good - taps for blue, turns into Chronatog so you get the turn-skipping benefit, and it isn't totally sucky with a Needle in play naming it. Thoughts?

[Bane of the Living]

I havent played with him yet but he seems promising. The fact that you get blue off him makes Tide much easier to cast. Let alone lets you keep hands with just brown mana. I dont think hes enough of a win condition alone however.

I donno if Pendrel Mists is good enough for its casting cost. Its a powerfull effect but not on its own. Only coupled with certain other lock pieces.Tell me how it works for you though. Id be interested to know.

[Jaynel]

I don't think the Mindslaver route is really that viable. Angel Stax often doesn't win in 50 minutes, and a win with Mindslaver + Manlands is much slower than Exalted Angel (and more mana intensive). I'd like to see a finisher in there over the Mindslavers, perhaps your standard Karn (I was also thinking Quicksilver Dragon as an option). Chronotog Totems seem like they'd be a very solid addition to help get double blue and to beat in the late game.

It seems that Meditate is a bit win more (I'm not sure if you're still considering its addition). If you already have resolved a Smokestack with other lock pieces in play, you're ready to shift into beatdown mode (Chronotog Totem shines here, you beat down and nuke the board with Smokestack/Tangle Wire/whatever) and let them struggle with thier board position.