[Deck] Eon Blue Apocalypse

[Evil Roopey]

What is wrong with Threshold? The answers to that question are few and far between, but I will give you the most prevelant. Graveyards can be answered with cards that don't cost any mana. In fact, graveyard hate just gained yet another tool to answer Thresh, Jotun Grunt.

What is another problem with Threshold? It plays the worst color in the format just so that it has a good clock.

How can we fix these problems? Technically you can't without making the deck not Threshold. So I gave it a new name.

// Lands
3 [U] Underground Sea
1 [MR] Plains (3)
3 [R] Tundra
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [8E] Island (1)
1 [ST] Swamp (4)

// Creatures
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
3 [PS] Meddling Mage
3 [ON] Wretched Anurid

// Spells
4 [U] Swords to Plowshares
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [MM] Counterspell
3 [NE] Daze
4 [FD] Serum Visions
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [5E] Portent
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [OD] Predict

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MM] Counterspell
SB: 3 [AT] Disenchant
SB: 3 [P2] Armageddon
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [WL] Disrupt

What is the difference between Thresh and EBA? Nothing really. Your "beaters" each cost 1 more mana than the Thresh creatures, but don't have the drawback of you having to have Theshold in order for them to be good. Also, they don't become smaller when your opponent finally activates that Crypt sitting across the board.

This deck also gains the benefit that sooner or later we will all settle on one optimal list. There really isn't to much controversy in the matter.

All the match-ups, except Goblins, have improved from my testing:

The Thresh "mirror" is favorbale because of the fact that you play Grunt main. Not only that but many people have started to realize that Black is the best color for the actual Thresh mirror because of Bob, which EBA plays 4 of.
No SB.

I'm not sure about Thresh's actual percentage against Goblins, but I am assuming it's higher than EBA's 50/50 preboard. But even that isn't an unfavorable match at all, and Plague only helps matters.
- 4 Mage
+4 Plague

The Solidarity match, which is already amazing, has only improved with the full compliment of Bob and Mage. That and the fact that they actually have to make me draw when I have a Grunt in play, or else I'll never deck.
-4 Swords to Plowshares
+3 Geddon
+1 Counterspell

My prief testing against Rifter is showing that Rifter shouldn't exist because it loses not only to Solidarity, but a compotent aggro-control player as well.
-3 Daze
-4 Swords
+3 Geddon
+3 Disenchant
+1 Counterspell

Suicide Decks: You know I haven't actually tested this matchup, and I would assume that it goes around the same as Thresh vs Sui.
-2 Counterspell
-2 Portent
+4 Disrupt

In reality this deck is Threshold, it's just not Threshold. I still have the cantrips, I still have the counters, I still have the removal, and I still have the clock.

So why isn't this deck strictly superior to Threshold? I can't answer that question.

[rockSTAR]

DAMN I freakin love this, dude. But I dunno if 5 removal spells are enough. What about darkblast? It makes the grave for the giant and helps you in the Goblin-Mu.
Did you already have results vs. Landstill and Ale? I would be really, really interested in those matchups, since they are still part of the meta in Germany.

Tim

edit: EDITED ;)

[Lukas Preuss]

DAMN I freakin love this dude.

You forgot a comma there... ;)

I really love this deck, as well. It seems to be really strong. I guess FoW and Armageddon are no problem with Dark Confidant, because you run enough Library Manipulation like Portent, Brainstorm, Serum Visions etc.?

[Grim]

This looks great. Sounds like it has good matchups against all the important decks too. Meddling Mage is leet.

Better than thresh.

[dakkon]

I like the deck. A few things:

What do you think the proper number of cantrips should be? I'll do some testing to try it out, but at first glance, 14 looks like overkill if you don't care to reach Threshold (and you're not playing counterbalance). I'm thinking about cutting it down to 10-12 and playing some Misdirections MD instead or even a 4th Daze since the deck needs more disruption.

How are the Sea Drakes working for you? I think without the Tombs/CoT and Cloud Faeries, they really slow you down, especially they could be easily killed. Perhaps Serendibs could take their place.

The list looks like a good start.

[quicksilver]

This looks great. Sounds like it has good matchups against all the important decks too. Meddling Mage is leet.

Better than thresh.

This is thresh. Just replace the nimble mongooses with rotting giant and werebear with sea drake.

[Evil Roopey]

What do you think the proper number of cantrips should be? I'll do some testing to try it out, but at first glance, 14 looks like overkill if you don't care to reach Threshold


Winning with Gro is a matter of chaining cantrips until you have overwhelming card quality advantage. I've found that most of the games Gro loses are games in which chaining cantrips is impossible for some reason, and squeezing one more cantrip into the list is an obvious way to improve the deck in this regard.

I know I argued with him against this for a long time, and to some extent still disagree, but this is a good explanation.

[SuckerPunch]

I wouldn't say this is strictly better than thresh. Mongoose cost's 1 mana and is untargetable. Werebear has a butt too large to get bolted, and taps for mana and costs only 2.

Also, seeing as how Rotting Giant is also killed by a well timed Tormod's Crypt, not just reduced to a 1/1, and more importantly, that multiple rotting giants in play are hard to support, have you thought about a 2/2 or 3/1 split with Rotting Giant and Wretched Anurid.

Sea Drake can be a huge setback in tempo esp in a deck with out ancient tombs and mox's to play it turn one, and even more so in one also running Daze.

The way the deck is, you're trading away Thresh's one big weakness for several smaller ones (higher ccs, creatures vulnerable to burn, tempo loss, 4 creatures that also have vulnerability to graveyard hate).

I would definately recommend atleast considering Efreet or Hypnotic Spectar, or Phyrexian War Beasts or Negator or even Skittering Horror (since you run so few creatures anyway) over Drakes.

Overall though, this is a good idea for a deck, so props to that. But I think the creature choices still need some tweaking.

Also Dark Ritual was a card I always loved and wished I could run in Thres. This deck may support it, if you run Negator, War Beast, or Specter over Drake

[Evil Roopey]

I wouldn't say this is strictly better than thresh. Mongoose cost's 1 mana and is untargetable. Werebear has a butt too large to get bolted, and taps for mana and costs only 2.

Also, seeing as how Rotting Giant is also killed by a well timed Tormod's Crypt, not just reduced to a 1/1, and more importantly, that multiple rotting giants in play are hard to support, have you thought about a 2/2 or 3/1 split with Rotting Giant and Wretched Anurid.

Sea Drake can be a huge setback in tempo esp in a deck with out ancient tombs and mox's to play it turn one, and even more so in one also running Daze.

The way the deck is, you're trading away Thresh's one big weakness for several smaller ones (higher ccs, creatures vulnerable to burn, tempo loss, 4 creatures that also have vulnerability to graveyard hate).

I would definately recommend atleast considering Efreet or Hypnotic Spectar, or Phyrexian War Beasts or Negator or even Skittering Horror (since you run so few creatures anyway) over Drakes.

Overall though, this is a good idea for a deck, so props to that. But I think the creature choices still need some tweaking.

Also Dark Ritual was a card I always loved and wished I could run in Thres. This deck may support it, if you run Negator, War Beast, or Specter over Drake

GY hate doesn't hurt Rotting Giant at all really. It's never hard to just play a cantrip in order to swing with it, and I have yet run into the situation of not having cards in the yard for Giant in close to 100 games with the deck. And yes I already knew Goose is untargetable where Giant isn't, but it hasn't really been much of an issue anyways. The main thing you lose with Giant over Goose is your untargetable answer to first turn Lackey, but I added the 5th removal spell for that situation.

Also, burn hasn't been much of a problem with Mage in the deck. You can easily Mage naming bolt, then Mage naming anything else they are running, while still being able to counter key removal spells.

Sea Drake Vs. Werebear. Yes Bear costs 2 and yes it adds mana, but Drake has an ability that has been infinitely more powerful in a lot of situations, Flying. The tempo loss from Drake also, really isn't a tempo loss when you consider you just played one the most effecient creatures in the game, and this deck really doens't ever need more than 2 mana anyways to function exactly like it wants to.

I guess if you are skeptical, you should test the deck. But that should be true about every deck.

[Shugyosha]

What is the difference between Thresh and EBA? Nothing really. Your "beaters" each cost 1 more mana than the Thresh creatures, but don't have the drawback of you having to have Theshold in order for them to be good.

Yes they don't need Threshold, they have a "build in drawback" already. Half of your creature base can be blocked to death by 2/X creatures...

Rotting Giant: As stated by SuckerPunch

Dark Confidant: Ok you have counters and removal but this is hardly a beatstick in comparison to Threshold. drawing FoW hurts but Ok you can arrange the library accordingly. Actually I found this to be the best creature...

Meddling Mage: Also hardly a good beater but a walking control card.

Sea Drake: Why shouldn't Enforcer be better? By the time you can cast him you usually have threshold and if not its still a solid 3/3. As a 6/6 he laughs at any other flyer in Legacy (besides the Akroma-kiddy). The Sea Drake drawback seems to be pretty bad for a deck that wants to manipulate/counter all the time.


So why isn't this deck strictly superior to Threshold? I can't answer that question.

You should write a bit more about your choices and testing. For me there is more hype in your initial post than information.

[Evil Roopey]

Yes they don't need Threshold, they have a "build in drawback" already. Half of your creature base can be blocked to death by 2/X creatures...

Rotting Giant: As stated by SuckerPunch

Dark Confidant: Ok you have counters and removal but this is hardly a beatstick in comparison to Threshold. drawing FoW hurts but Ok you can arrange the library accordingly. Actually I found this to be the best creature...

Meddling Mage: Also hardly a good beater but a walking control card.

Sea Drake: Why shouldn't Enforcer be better? By the time you can cast him you usually have threshold and if not its still a solid 3/3. As a 6/6 he laughs at any other flyer in Legacy (besides the Akroma-kiddy). The Sea Drake drawback seems to be pretty bad for a deck that wants to manipulate/counter all the time.



You should write a bit more about your choices and testing. For me there is more hype in your initial post than information.

You should be comparing this list to Threshold lists that don't run a giant fat flyer, because essentially Sea Drake has replaced Werebear and Giant has replaced Goose. Almost all Thresh decks, excluding Hatfield Thresh, runs more controlling smaller creatures as well. In fact, people have started to evolve Thresh to run Mages and Confidants, just like me. You are comparing the controling elements of my deck to the beating elements of Thresh, and completely misunderstanding logic.

Sea Drake and Rotting Giant both have drawbacks, just like every cheap, big creature in the game, but what you are missing is that they do not have the same drawback and your opponent can't exploit these drawbacks as much as they can against Thresh. The fact that Sea Drake has different drawback than Rotting Giant means you aren't depleting too many resources. Also, none of these drawbacks can be exploited to the point where every deck sides in X Crypts or X Jotun Grunts and you loose because of it.

Not only all of this but Green is absolutely horrible color. The only SB option it provides is Naturalize, which is just a Disenchant. So now you have only good colors in your deck which means your SB and lands should be optimized. Not being able to cast Duress because you had to fetch a Trop in order to actually play a threat sucks.

You are obviously missing the whole point here. This deck is Thresh, it just can't lose games to 0 casting cost artifacts that everyone and their mother's are siding in against you. This is the decks best answer to graveyard hate. Especially now that there are multiple different forms of it.

[MasterBlaster]

Also, seeing as how Rotting Giant is also killed by a well timed Tormod's Crypt, not just reduced to a 1/1,...

Yes, Rotting Giant can be killed by a well timed Crypt. But explain to me who would really side in Crypt solely because they might get lucky and kill a zombie.

[Nightmare]

Subtle, Jack (ass). Don't backseat mod.

Moved.

[Hanni]

I think the deck shows promise but I don't see why in the World you don't run Serendib Efreet over Sea Drake. Serendib has the same 2U cost but it won't affect your tempo at all. I think that the 1 damage per turn it does to you is insignificant and that the 4 toughness is crucial to surviving Lightning Bolts, especially if your going to run Rotting Giant maindeck rather than Jotun Grunt maindeck.

Even with cantrips, won't Ghastly Demise be sort of contradicting with Rotting Giant, especially if you side in Jotun Grunt? It targets a nonblack creature anyway... why not just run the 4th StP and drop a Ghastly Demise? If you want additional spot removal, you can run Last Gasp, Smother, Diabolic Edict, and many more. You could even run creatures that do a similar job, such as Stormscape Apprentice or Mother of Runes (to an extent). I suppose Ghastly Demise has its uses but I just don't really like it.

Since the deck doesn't really need cantrip the same way that Gro does, why not add in 1-2 Sensei's Divining Top? They won't exactly cantrip but they will still...

"Winning with [EBA] is a matter of chaining cantrips until you have overwhelming card quality advantage"

So although you won't exactly be gaining a cantrip, you will still gain the overwhelming card quality advantage, and it has a better synergy with Confidant than something such as Predict does. I would consider it as a 1-2 of, but it's not completely necessary.

I also do not think that the deck needs 14 cantrips with 4 Confidants. You may access your quality cards easier, but you lack quantity. I do believe that cantrips are wonderful but I also believe that you still need a little bit of quality so you don't collapse some games. Keep in mind that you do not need to achieve threshold, thus the necessity for cantrips is not as significant.

I would up Daze to 4. I would also maindeck 4 Duress. Running an additional 2 more Counterspells is optional... though I would probably try to add additional removal instead.

Darkblast was mentioned and possibly worth consideration. Funeral Charm could be a good idea too... and running 4 Funeral Charm over 4 Duress maindeck with 2-4 Isochron Scepters maindeck could also be a consideration, though I don't think it's necessary.

Other than that, everything looks pretty good.

[laststepdown]

Why Sea Drake over Serendib Efreet, Tog, or Moroii?

[Di]

Why Sea Drake over Serendib Efreet, Tog, or Moroii?

I was wondering that myself. I'm actually a big fan of this deck and have my own(but old and more based on the extended build) of this deck and I think it's really solid.

I'm not going to lie I usually dismiss your decks because they always fizzle and shit the bed Roopey, but this one is good. This is the kind of aggro-control deck that should romp on the tier 1 for the future. Anyway, my thoughts:

- As many others have said, Sea Drake has to go. Serendib is a much better card in this slot because you can't afford the setback without Tomb and Mox. Serendib dodges bolts too, and blocks Mongeese.

- Go up to 4 StP. Seriously, cut a Ghaslty Demise if you want, but StP is the best removal in the format.

- It's mainly preference, but I'm just not a huge fan of Rotting Giant. It's a great power/cc ratio with small drawback, but I think there's a better creature somewhere for this slot. I'm not sure what that creature is though. For now I suppose Giant is fine, but I just think a better creature is out there. Galina's Knight is a strong possibility to support your dismal Goblins matchup, so I think it's a decent possibility. Between Knight and Plague, Goblins shouldn't ever be a losing matchup.

- Why Predict? There's good synergy with it in the deck, but this deck isn't trying to throw cards in the graveyard. Accumulated Knowledge really seems like it'd be a better bet, as it turns into a draw3 then a draw4 as well.

- I noticed you really don't have much of an answer for Nimble Mongoose. The only creatures you have that block it die, and you can't target it. Would Demise be able to be replaced by Chainer's/Diabolic Edict for that removal, or is the 1cc too big of an issue? If not, Smother is still an excellent choice(which is better than Demise anyway because it hits Bobs and black gayness like Negators and friends).

- Cut some fetchlands for duals God dammit. You're running 8 fetches with Bob and FoW. Are you trying to give aggro the win? Cut 2 of them for either the 3rd and 4th Tundra or the 3rd Tundra and 4th Sea.

- This is also just a personal preference, but I hate seeing only 2 Counterspells. It's a hard counter for UU. I think Gro decks suffer a little from only 6 hard counters, and I personally think a 4/3/3 mix of FoW, Daze, and vanillas are the best way to go. Having the hard counter is crucial to some matchups.

[xsockmonkeyx]

How are the Sea Drakes working for you? I think without the Tombs/CoT and Cloud Faeries, they really slow you down, especially they could be easily killed. Perhaps Serendibs could take their place.





Sea Drake can be a huge setback in tempo esp in a deck with out ancient tombs and mox's to play it turn one, and even more so in one also running Daze.

I would definately recommend atleast considering Efreet or Hypnotic Spectar, or Phyrexian War Beasts or Negator or even Skittering Horror (since you run so few creatures anyway) over Drakes.




The Sea Drake drawback seems to be pretty bad for a deck that wants to manipulate/counter all the time.



I think the deck shows promise but I don't see why in the World you don't run Serendib Efreet over Sea Drake. Serendib has the same 2U cost but it won't affect your tempo at all. I think that the 1 damage per turn it does to you is insignificant and that the 4 toughness is crucial to surviving Lightning Bolts, especially if your going to run Rotting Giant maindeck rather than Jotun Grunt maindeck.


Why Sea Drake over Serendib Efreet, Tog, or Moroii?


As many others have said, Sea Drake has to go. Serendib is a much better card in this slot because you can't afford the setback without Tomb and Mox. Serendib dodges bolts too, and blocks Mongeese.

@ER

Please, please, please change Sea Drake to Serendib. At least 6 good arguments have already been made in the thread supporting that change:

1)It is harder to play around the Sea Drakes costs without tools like Ancient Tomb and Crome Mox in the deck.

2)The Sea Drake is easier to kill at 3 toughness.

3)The Serendib survives bolts and blocks Mongeese at 4 toughness.

4)Other creatures in your deck also already have 3 toughness so Sea Drake doesnt help.

5)It is harder to play around the Drakes cost when you also run Daze.

6)The Drake is out of flavor as this is a manipulating/counter orientated deck.

[SuckerPunch]

Cut some cantrips.

Run some Divining Top (they're great with Confidants too) and add atleast 2 Counterbalance.

That's what thresh wants to do, unfortunatley, thres pretty much has to play atleast 12 cantrips. You don't.

And as others mentioned, Ghastly demise sucks. Run the 4th STP.

[tivadar]

This deck is NOT thresh minus the graveyard dependance. While you run 15 creatures, they ARE wimpy compared to thresh. There are a few reasons for this. First, they're not green, which although it sucks for everything else, NOTHING has pro-green (lynx is the only notable exception that's any good, and he's rarely run). They never made a green sword (which I'm still upset about), and there's no emerald knight. Blue is the second most susceptable color in the game. REBs, Sofi's and piledrivers are going to nail you.

Also, you can't leave out thresh's fat flyers. They are a MAJOR swing for that deck in the aggro department. They are oftentimes boarded if not in the maindeck to stop things like angel stompy (and believe me, I hate them...). While drake/efreet is good, all of the thresh threats are 1 mana cheaper to cast, which means a faster clock against darity.

I'd say you have a deck with a weaker creature base than Gro on the whole, but a stronger counter/control base if you play it right. Drop portent, make this a 3c control deck with a clock, and I think you'll have a lot more success. Also, I'd get rid of daze, it's a TERRIBLE late game draw. I do like ghastly demise as additional answers to first turn lackey, but the 1cc innocent blood might also do what you're looking for without targetting (though it's probably much worse late game). Granted, it means you have to drop a creature as well, but with 4x confidant, you may actually WANT to. Still, I think a better strategy may be to add some form of mass-removal to the mainboard. I'm not entirely sure what fits here, but decree of pain came to mind initially, or potentially parallax wave. The problem with both is they require a 2 mana off-blue commitment. You could always do 4x orim's chant + 4x siren's call if you were crazy :-P, but that also seems wrong.

Either way, think about some better control. Currently the list looks remarkably like Wub AS with the equipment replaced by some scrying and some countering. I understand it's supposed to be more controlling, but I'm just not sure it works...

[Evil Roopey]

This deck is NOT thresh minus the graveyard dependance. While you run 15 creatures, they ARE wimpy compared to thresh.

Wrong. This deck is in fact Thresh without grave-dependance.


There are a few reasons for this. First, they're not green, which although it sucks for everything else, NOTHING has pro-green (lynx is the only notable exception that's any good, and he's rarely run). They never made a green sword (which I'm still upset about), and there's no emerald knight. Blue is the second most susceptable color in the game. REBs, Sofi's and piledrivers are going to nail you.

Again, my theats are evenly divided down the middle when it comes to this. Siding in REB against me and I draw a hand full of black creatures would be humurous to say the least. Also, 8 non-blue threats is easily a good answer to SoFI and Driver in the main, and it's not like any of my removal is Blue.

This arguement is horrible anyways, it's like saying people shouldn't Faerie Stompy because all of their threats are blue.


Also, you can't leave out thresh's fat flyers. They are a MAJOR swing for that deck in the aggro department. They are oftentimes boarded if not in the maindeck to stop things like angel stompy (and believe me, I hate them...). While drake/efreet is good, all of the thresh threats are 1 mana cheaper to cast, which means a faster clock against darity.

This is false. I have had much success with Thresh lists that don't run fat creatures. In fact, the generally accepted black version of Thresh doens't run a fat flyer because of Dark Confidant. This is a black version of Thresh that run Dark Confidant, so why is it that this was even pointed out? If you want to run a fat flyer, please play Thresh and lose to the mass amounts of GY hate in the format.


I'd say you have a deck with a weaker creature base than Gro on the whole, but a stronger counter/control base if you play it right. Drop portent, make this a 3c control deck with a clock, and I think you'll have a lot more success. Also, I'd get rid of daze, it's a TERRIBLE late game draw. I do like ghastly demise as additional answers to first turn lackey, but the 1cc innocent blood might also do what you're looking for without targetting (though it's probably much worse late game). Granted, it means you have to drop a creature as well, but with 4x confidant, you may actually WANT to. Still, I think a better strategy may be to add some form of mass-removal to the mainboard. I'm not entirely sure what fits here, but decree of pain came to mind initially, or potentially parallax wave. The problem with both is they require a 2 mana off-blue commitment. You could always do 4x orim's chant + 4x siren's call if you were crazy :-P, but that also seems wrong.

You have to be kidding right? Think about it this way. Goose turn 1 and Werebear turn 2 are actually not optimal plays in the first place. You should be using the first 2 turns to gain control of the game, then on turn 3-4 play threats that your opponent won't be able to recover from. That and the fact that your creatures are horrible investments when you don't have Threshold. I have never in my entire life played an unthreshed Bear unless under peculiar circumstances. So with this in mind, why wouldn't I pay the extra one mana that you should have available for a better creature?


I understand it's supposed to be more controlling, but I'm just not sure it works...

Then test it, genius. All in all, if you aren't scared of losing games to Crypt play Thresh over this.


Please, please, please change Sea Drake to Serendib. At least 6 good arguments have already been made in the thread supporting that change:

Yet none of them have convinced me. Sea Drakes drawback has yet actually want to take it out, and I have been testing this deck for some time now. It's just such a powerful card and I think it is way to undervalued.


And as others mentioned, Ghastly demise sucks. Run the 4th STP.
Apparently no one got the little steal from UGRW Thresh in the sense that I can Mage to shut down their removal in the mirror while still being able to have removal. This is the real reason for only running 3 Swords. Although I do kinda want Demise to be Edict, but again I'm not sold on the matter.


I'm not going to lie I usually dismiss your decks because they always fizzle and shit the bed Roopey, but this one is good.

Thanx! ;) But seriously this is largely due to lack of intelligence and testing on this forum.


- Why Predict? There's good synergy with it in the deck, but this deck isn't trying to throw cards in the graveyard. Accumulated Knowledge really seems like it'd be a better bet, as it turns into a draw3 then a draw4 as well.

AK for 1 = bad. I'm not going to ever play the card for that reason and that reason alone.


- This is also just a personal preference, but I hate seeing only 2 Counterspells. It's a hard counter for UU. I think Gro decks suffer a little from only 6 hard counters, and I personally think a 4/3/3 mix of FoW, Daze, and vanillas are the best way to go. Having the hard counter is crucial to some matchups.

Does Mage count as a preemtive hard counter? Because if it does, I'm running 10 hard counters, and that is more than enough in a deck that has a 18 card draw-engine.

[Lego]

AK for 1 = bad. I'm not going to ever play the card for that reason and that reason alone.

So is Predict for 1. In my testing I cast Predict enough for one that AK seems like it would be the better option if I weren't going for Thresh. But that could be because I'm a bad player.

[Evil Roopey]

So is Predict for 1. In my testing I cast Predict enough for one that AK seems like it would be the better option if I weren't going for Thresh.

Yes, but you will generally always draw 2 cards off of Predict, especially in the first few turns of the game, where it matters.

[Di]

Yes, but you will generally always draw 2 cards off of Predict, especially in the first few turns of the game, where it matters.

Yet you still might not draw that 2nd card. So what if the first AK for 1. The rest of them are golden. AK for 3 or 4 is rather huge in the late game, especially if you topdeck it. Predict is a shit topdeck.

Also, you may or may not be autistic for not being convinced on the Serendib v. Sea Drake topic, I haven't decided yet. Serendib has virtually no drawbacks compared to what Sea Drake has. The single power isn't a huge deal in a aggro-control deck. If it was pure aggro, that's different. Drake dies to twice the amount of removal as Efreet, and also sets you back on lands. Also, Daze + Sea Drake /= synergy.

[SuckerPunch]

I agree with Ropey. AK is an absolutely horrid card in a deck without Intuition. Many games, you won't see any more after the first. Even if you see a second, so you spend 2 cards and 4 mana to draw three cards, that's pretty crappy. The very small minority of games in which you see the third one, it's about on par with Night's Whispers, big whoop. In short, don't run AK.



Also, you may or may not be autistic for not being convinced on the Serendib v. Sea Drake topic, I haven't decided yet.

There's no need to be a jerk. He hasn't attacked you, why are you attacking him?

[Di]

Also, you may or may not be autistic for not being convinced on the Serendib v. Sea Drake topic, I haven't decided yet.

There's no need to be a jerk. He hasn't attacked you, why are you attacking him?

There is no attack here. All I did is merely question how he still runs Sea Drake, just with a very unnecessary tone.


I agree with Ropey. AK is an absolutely horrid card in a deck without Intuition. Many games, you won't see any more after the first. Even if you see a second, so you spend 2 cards and 4 mana to draw three cards, that's pretty crappy. The very small minority of games in which you see the third one, it's about on par with Night's Whispers, big whoop. In short, don't run AK.

And Predict is at best 4 mana with 2 cards to draw 4, but can also be only 2 cards. Also, considering this deck's cantripping engine, finding past the 2nd one isn't hard at all. I played Turboland for something like 3-4 months with AK without Intuition, and I hardly had any problems at all finding past the 3rd one. This deck does not win games that early when the only beats are wimpy creatures, which means you will almost always run into the long game. That said, the 3rd and 4th AK's aren't hard to find, and do a hell of a better job than Predict.

[Evil Roopey]

All of this is moot. I cut Predict from the deck, but not for AK.

-3 Predict
-3 Sea Drake
+3 Serendib Efreet
+1 Portent
+2 Umezawa's Jitte

I was brainstorming options for the deck and realized that I don't run Goose, meaning I can run equipment. This improves every single match-up, and gives you outs to things to things you shouldn't have outs against, kind of like a giant flyer.

EDIT: 666 posts ftw.

[Alfred]

All of this is moot. I cut Predict from the deck, but not for AK.

-3 Predict
+1 Portent
+2 Umezawa's Jitte

I was brainstorming options for the deck and realized that I don't run Goose, meaning I can run equipment. This improves every single match-up, and gives you outs to things to things you shouldn't have outs against, kind of like a giant flyer.

EDIT: 666 posts ftw.

Why not run more artifacts so that you can run my favourite draw engine: Thirst for Knowledge. Now THAT's an aggro control draw engine.

[Evil Roopey]

Why not run more artifacts so that you can run my favourite draw engine: Thirst for Knowledge. Now THAT's an aggro control draw engine.

Because TFK doesn't set up Bob, it doesn't give you Velocity, and it doesn't provide card quality in the amount that the other cards do, all of this plus the fact that it draws 1 more card than my 3 cantrips and costs 3 times as much.

[Evil Roopey]

New list time. I have been testing this one lately, and it has proven to be a lot stronger.

// Lands
2 [U] Underground Sea
1 [MR] Plains (3)
3 [R] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [8E] Island (1)
1 [ST] Swamp (4)

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
4 [PS] Meddling Mage
4 [ON] Wretched Anurid

// Spells
4 [U] Swords to Plowshares
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [MM] Counterspell
3 [NE] Daze
4 [FD] Serum Visions
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [5E] Portent
4 [AL] Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [AT] Disenchant
SB: 3 [P2] Armageddon
SB: 1 [MM] Counterspell
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [WL] Disrupt

The deck actually proved to be able to support 3 Grunts main without Mental Note, and this obviously made me make the switch from Giant to Anurid. I cut the Demises for another Jitte because they rock Goblins face.

[Whit3 Ghost]

Anurid is BAD, especially with Confidant. I've won games when my opponent had both on the board and have lost games as a result of the lifeloss.

Run Drakavec, hell, run ANYTHING in that slot.

[Evil Roopey]

Anurid is BAD, especially with Confidant. I've won games when my opponent had both on the board and have lost games as a result of the lifeloss.

Run Drakavec, hell, run ANYTHING in that slot.


If things start getting out of hand, throw it in front of something and Swords it. Jitte also gains a shitload of life.

[Hanni]

Roopey, your list looks so similar to mine yet the few differences set them apart drastically.

I'd personally try to fit in Cabal Therapy or Duress because of how much synergy they have with the rest of the deck. My deck ran 12 counterspells at one time but now it runs 8 counterspells and 4 Cabal Therapy. Duress/Cabal Therapy gives the deck amazing reach... I don't think I would run any UWB deck without these.

[Evil Roopey]

Roopey, your list looks so similar to mine yet the few differences set them apart drastically.

I'd personally try to fit in Cabal Therapy or Duress because of how much synergy they have with the rest of the deck. My deck ran 12 counterspells at one time but now it runs 8 counterspells and 4 Cabal Therapy. Duress/Cabal Therapy gives the deck amazing reach... I don't think I would run any UWB deck without these.

Duress, to me, seems like a sideboard card more than anything in this format, because there are just too many straight aggro decks where its just horrible against, especially Goblins. Cabal Therapy, again, is to narrow to run in the main, in my opinion. I'm not saying that you can't run them, it's just that I feel the match-ups where they would help, are already almost auto-wins, and sideboarding for Rifter, I would much rather have Geddon and Disenchant to answer things that have already been played, rather than hope I draw my Duress before the Humility comes down. So, basically, Duress and Therapy would weaken your Goblins match and strengthen your other matches, which is the opposite of what I am trying to do right now.

Roop

Edit: @ Jotun Grunt:
I was thinking about it yesterday and do you realize how many decks in Legacy where Grunts ability is actually amazing? A lot.

Threshold-Duh.

Ichorid-Duh.

LftL decks-Duh.

Salvagers Game-I was actually testing this the other day and won games because I would put early Spheres on the bottom of his deck.

Iggy-Pop- This is only true if they don't combo early, and if they do Force will shut them down.

Rifter/Wombat/Truffle Shuffle/Any IBAshittasticpilethathelikestorefertoasplayable- Eternal Dragon/Anti-hauning echoes ftw.

Solidarity- Now they actually have to make you draw or you won't deck.

Sui- Between the two of us, the graveyards get really big really fast.

Stax- Stops Crucible, which stops locks.

Landstill- Stops Crucible and Dragon.

Survival- Wow, Grunt would kick Survivals ass.

Tog- .......

Madness- Shuts down DA, Roar, and LftL.

LANDS!- LftL, Roar, just all around stops the actual broken part of the deck.

That list is too long, this card is going to hate way to much out of this format.

[Ridiculous Hat]

The card is good, but 12 cards by the third turn and 20 by the fourth means that it probably won't stick around for that long. Granted, it's really good while it's around and it'll probably be enough to finish them assuming you draw other guys-- but I don't think you can reliably expect to have it in play for more than 3 turns.

[Evil Roopey]

The card is good, but 12 cards by the third turn and 20 by the fourth means that it probably won't stick around for that long. Granted, it's really good while it's around and it'll probably be enough to finish them assuming you draw other guys-- but I don't think you can reliably expect to have it in play for more than 3 turns.

In my opinion 2 mana for 12 damage while removing cards in the yard is perfectly OK with me. And late-game he will most definatly stick around to kill them.

[Hanni]

Other than Goblins, Duress is usually great. It does what a Counterspell can do in most cases for less mana AND you get to see the opponent's hand. Once you've seen the opponent's hand, you can make better use of your resources, such as knowing what to save StP or Counterspell. Duress gets even more nuts with Meddling Mage, turn 1 Duress followed by turn 2 Meddling Mage has won me quite a few games.

My decklist, in fact, runs Cabal Therapy. This means I can still hit Goblins. My deck also runs 4 Dark Confidant and 3 Jotun Grunt so there are plenty of solid targets to sacrifice to it. I just think that it does so much for the control shell of UWb that it is an auto-include.

It's only my suggestion. If you feel that it is unecessary, I can't make you add it. I'd highly recommend you at least test it though. Our decklists are pretty similar, if you'd like to take a look:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4046

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=29779.0

My thread on TMD has considerably more content than my thread on The Source.

[Nightmare]

Other than Goblins, Duress is usually great. It does what a Counterspell can do in most cases for less mana AND you get to see the opponent's hand.This is a common mistake. Duress does not serve the same purpose as Counterspell. Yes, they both effectively neutralize 1 spell from the opponent's hand, but they differ in an important way. Counterspell forces your opponent to commit his resources into the play, while Duress only commits yours. When you Duress, you leave an opportunity on the top of your opponent's deck. With Counterspell, you help to remove that opportunity through an uneven exchange in resources. Duress is designed to clear a path, while Counterspell is designed to say Stop, or No. Counterspell serves your gameplan in this fashion much better than Duress.

[Evil Roopey]

Predict is just so good in this deck. It's going back in. The list has been updated on the first page.

[Hanni]

Leaving UU open for Counterspell can be difficult when your trying to invest mana sources into creatures. Duress is alot easier to cast, especially early on, and has amazing synergy with the rest of the deck. It is true that Duress doesn't give tempo like Counterspell does (since the opponent wastes mana sources). However, it's alot easier to play early on and it is still a 1 for 1 trade. There are pro's and con's to both.

[Alfred]

Leaving UU open for Counterspell can be difficult when your trying to invest mana sources into creatures. Duress is alot easier to cast, especially early on, and has amazing synergy with the rest of the deck. It is true that Duress doesn't give tempo like Counterspell does (since the opponent wastes mana sources). However, it's alot easier to play early on and it is still a 1 for 1 trade. There are pro's and con's to both.

I disagree. I find that counterspells go better with counterspells, and discard goes better with discard. I also find that free, or near free counterspells also shelters creatures you are trying to protect better than discard. Without an untargetable creature like Mongoose, the 3 Counterspells are probably a good idea.

I also really like this deck! I've been testing it out, and it seems to do well against many other decks, especially Threshold. The Jotun Grunts in particular have been great against Thresh as they really punish that deck's strategy.

Confidant is also a great element to the deck. I can really see why that card has tried to be squeezed into Threshold decks.

[Ridiculous Hat]

Have you had any problems with:

-Drawing multiple grunts and having one of them be dead?
-Drawing grunts too early and having them not be useful for blocking?
-Being on the defense in the midgame and using grunt to not die?
-Wretched Anurid's life loss being too much in concert with Bob?

You really don't want to play the full boat of Mages and/or Bobs? Seems like a Portent and a Counterspell could come out or something-- the 4th Bob has to be better than the 4th Portent...

This deck does not want Duress maindeck btw. Duress is proactive disruption for decks that are on the proactive "beatdown" plan. This deck, more often than not, is reactive, meaning Counterspell is miles better.

[Evil Roopey]

Drawing multiple grunts and having one of them be dead?

Hif you have 2, you should be able to do the math to figure out when your first is going to die and play the second one so that there is always one in play.



-Drawing grunts too early and having them not be useful for blocking?

Maybe it's just the way I play this version of the deck, but I almost always know what I'm going to draw every single turn, and don't stop casting cantrips for a very long time (very Hatfield like, and yes you guys win, fuckers) Drawing multiples of anything has never really been a problem.


-Being on the defense in the midgame and using grunt to not die?

Not a lot, but it happens, and when it does you will most likely still win since he will stop almost every attack or take out 2-3 creatures over a few turns.


Wretched Anurid's life loss being too much in concert with Bob?

Not entirely, but I have lost to Bobs and Anurids before. I do have Jitte for life gain though. Hopefully the new Angel will be playable enough to replace Anurid, but as it stands he's the best option for the slot.


You really don't want to play the full boat of Mages and/or Bobs? Seems like a Portent and a Counterspell could come out or something-- the 4th Bob has to be better than the 4th Portent...

Situationally Bob is better than Portent, but most times it's the other way around. Like on the first turn, or when I have a Predict in hand. Not only that but Portent is part of the draw engine that helps find Bobs.

[Alfred]

This deck does not want Duress maindeck btw. Duress is proactive disruption for decks that are on the proactive "beatdown" plan. This deck, more often than not, is reactive, meaning Counterspell is miles better.

I actually think a little differently here. I don't think that this deck is necissarily reactive, as it is running a proactive strategy by commiting permanents to the board and trying to protect them. The counterspells are only reactive in the sense that you are playing them to keep an opponent from stopping your proactive strategy of beating down with cheap creatures.

The reason I don't think Duress, or other discard is that great in this deck is because Duress would be attacking a different resource than the countermagic i.e. cards in hand. Countermagic (in this deck and thresh specifically) I see as actually attacking tempo as a resource, stopping opponents from casting spells completely until they are dead, or unable to recover.

EDIT:

Also, I agree that this deck seems to be weak in defense department, because both Grunt and Anurid punish you for not ending the game quickly, as does Confidant. Meddling Mage also seems less effective when facing an aggro deck like Goblins. I think perhaps the best idea would be to raise your Jitte count from 2 to 3, because then attacking allows you to play both offense AND defense, and offense is clearly where this deck wants to be.

[laststepdown]

How do you guys feel about the build that got 15th at TML Open?

Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage
2 Ninja Of The Deep Hours

Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force Of Will
4 Swords To Plowshares

Legendary Artifacts
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Legendary Creatures
4 Isamaru, Hound Of Konda

Sorceries
3 Duress
3 Vindicate

Basic Lands
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Swamp

Lands
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scrubland
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Pithing Needle
4 Jotun Grunt
3 Engineered Plague
2 Disenchant
1 Duress
2 Gaea's Blessing

link is here:
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=18658

What about Isamaru main over Grunt? Would this be considered the current optimal build?

Off topic from this build, how would aether vial fit with this? Isamaru could definitely be Voidmage Prodigy, allowing 4 more instant speed counterspells-it would get your guys through Chalice set at 2 as well. Sorry. It's a pet card. Rightfully so, I mean it powers the best aggro deck in the format.

[Mirrislegend]

I've been thoroughly crushed by Roopey wielding EBA, and that pile is no EBA.
That deck is not EBA. At all. It's not a tweak of EBA, it's not a techy edit of EBA, it is in no way any version of EBA. It is UWB Fish that is horribly misnamed. Whoever did this title assigning should be ashamed of themselves.

As for actually paying attention to the list...
-In my experience, 4x Isamaru doesnt belong in Fish, but thats just personal preference. Otherwise, it seems like a pretty solid UWB Fish list
-This is not the optimal build of EBA, seeing as it isnt EBA. However, if, somehow, this was EBA, then it still wouldnt be optimal. EBA runs bigger creatures than Isamaru all over the place. It's like asking if Isamaru would optimalize UGW Thresh. The answer is NO.
-@ Aether Vial: Maybe in that fish list, but not in EBA. For the same reasons its not in Thresh.

[Hanni]

The reason I don't think Duress, or other discard is that great in this deck is because Duress would be attacking a different resource than the countermagic i.e. cards in hand. Countermagic (in this deck and thresh specifically) I see as actually attacking tempo as a resource, stopping opponents from casting spells completely until they are dead, or unable to recover.


I agree, to an extent, that Counterspell is better. However, Duress has its uses. I've always felt, from playing Fish, that the deck wants to establish an early game dominance. When I say this, I mean that the deck wants to prevent the opponent from creating a good board position while at the same time making your own better. Duress can be played early on in the game to remove spot removal from the opponent's hand so that you can get a creature into play and keep him there. With Counterspell, that would require 4 mana sources, which isn't something that will happen immediately in the early game, and especially if your using mana resources on cantrips. Possibly you don't drop a creature early and cantrip instead... though I've always felt that getting an early game Confidant to stick, for example, usually wins me games. Duress costs a mere 1 mana and the ability to look at the opponent's hand is so beneficial to the rest of this deck (knowing what to spend other resources on, such as countermagic, StP, what to name with Meddling Mage, etc). It also can remove key important spells to an opponent's strategy, aside from Goblins (which I board out Duress for Engineered Plague). Maybe it's not right for EBA, I play a deck extremely similar to this except with only 8 cantrips and I don't run Anurid. Duress has always been amazing for me in that deck, and that's why I suggest it here. I prefer to play Duress first turn rather than a cantrip, and it's won me quite a few games when followed with a turn 2 Meddling Mage.

However, to each his own. I'm not really trying to convince you to put it in EBA if you don't like it, it's just that I suggested it earlier and people keep leaving their feedback on it. I just wanted to clarify how it should be used in the deck and why. I was just suggesting that you could playtest it, though if you feel it's unecessary then that is always perfectly fine.

On a sidenote, I just want to say that I'm not quite sure exactly what the difference between EBA and Fish is. They both look pretty similar to me, the only difference with your creature base rather than mine is Wretched Anurid, which I think is an awful card. Spell wise, I only run 8 cantrips rather than your 15. In place of that I run extra creatures and spells. With Dark Confidant, and without a need to achieve Threshold, I really think that 15 cantrips is just excessive overkill when you'd rather dig into creatures and spells with your cantrips rather than dig into more cantrips. Probably just my opinion about it though. Back on subject though, what differentiates this from Fish? The extra cantrips? I mean, you still run utility creatures (Confidant, Grunt, Mage) and you still run control spells. This looks like UWb Fish with Threshold inspired cantrips to me, so I would still consider this Fish. Naming your Fish build EBA is perfectly fine, allowing you to distinguish between different builds of Fish and giving the deck a personal feel. However, I'm failing to see how this deck is not considered Fish.

For reference, my decklist is here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4046 Seriously, these decks look so similar that they could almost be merged, though the few differences between them should keep them from it.

EDIT:

I forgot that I had posted a link to my decklist on this thread in a previous post, my apologies.

[xsockmonkeyx]

I think the EBA moniker has been given to a couple of decks ive seen so maybe they are coincidental. Check out the Mana Drain, theres a T1 deck called EBA on there:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=23114.0

EDIT: the TML list is crap btw.

[SillyMetalGAT]

That deck looks a lot like the old Keeper deck, just missing the red.... hmm..... is Vintage going back to the days of control?

[Cavius The Great]

I can't believe you guys never heard of Vintage EBA. EBA is originally a Vintage deck. It's been around since 2002 and is a keyed term in the Vintage forums at TMD. It's not popular anymore though.

[SillyMetalGAT]

What about Exalted Angel in this deck? Is it just too excessive or could this fill the Enforcer/Dragon slot that Threshold plays? I know the fatties aren't mandatory for this deck, but if you like playing them, would Angel fill this spot? My preference when I play threshold is to play fat, and I would like to play some in this deck too.

[Bane of the Living]

What about Exalted Angel in this deck? Is it just too excessive or could this fill the Enforcer/Dragon slot that Threshold plays? I know the fatties aren't mandatory for this deck, but if you like playing them, would Angel fill this spot? My preference when I play threshold is to play fat, and I would like to play some in this deck too.

Dark Confidant?

[SillyMetalGAT]

That arguement isnt viable. With all the manipulation he plays it shouldnt be a problem. Hell he plays Force without problem. 1-2 Angels far outweigh the damage you would recieve. Not to mention she does gain you life.

[Bane of the Living]

This isnt dump truck. I dont think the deck is designed with that kind of strategy in mind. Besides running 4 FoW with Bob is risky enough, I wouldnt push more 6cc shit into the deck and make it a lethal mistake.

[Di]

@The top16 build

I'm surprised that got as far as it did with so little draw in the deck. But I guess it shows an aggro version can do it too.

I've been working on this deck for some time now, and have a bit more controllish build compared to Roopey's list sacrificing a bit of the draw in favor of removal because I think the Goblins game can be difficult with small creatures. I also run additional removal because I choose to run Serendib over Anurid because she doesn't die to Bolt and flys. Also, Roopey's list completely packs it to Chalice @ 2. Not saying his is bad, it's not, but it needs a way to not lose to Faerie Stompy and 5/3.

Here's the list I've been using.

4 Meddling Mage
3 Dark Confidant
3 Serendib Efreet
2 Juton Grunt

4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
2 Sleight of Hand
3 Predict
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vindicate/Engineered Explosives

4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Sideboard:
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Vindicate/Engineered Explosives
2 Disenchant
1 Serenity
2 Armageddon
2 Perish
3 Engineered Plague
3 Duress

I personally think Portent bites, so I prefer Sleight of Hand instead. Yes, I'm aware of the lack of Predict synergy. Edicts make the Thres game a bit stronger for Mongeese, and the Vindicate/EE slot is necessary removal. I have the one Serenity in the sb as I think artifacts decks are starting to grow in popularity.

Anyway, yeah.

EDIT: I'm also currently looking for a solid possible replacement for Serendib. Although I love the fat, I want to find a fattie that doesn't have life loss, as this deck can go down pretty quick. I've looked through the colors and what didn't contain life loss or graveyard dependency and the best results I can find are Negators, which I really don't want to try in this deck.

[Afro]

EDIT: I'm also currently looking for a solid possible replacement for Serendib. Although I love the fat, I want to find a fattie that doesn't have life loss, as this deck can go down pretty quick. I've looked through the colors and what didn't contain life loss or graveyard dependency and the best results I can find are Negators, which I really don't want to try in this deck.

pussy... ;)

That leads you to either phyrexian war beast or perhaps.. well thats pretty much it.

[Alfred]

@The top16 build

I'm surprised that got as far as it did with so little draw in the deck. But I guess it shows an aggro version can do it too.

I've been working on this deck for some time now, and have a bit more controllish build compared to Roopey's list sacrificing a bit of the draw in favor of removal because I think the Goblins game can be difficult with small creatures. I also run additional removal because I choose to run Serendib over Anurid because she doesn't die to Bolt and flys. Also, Roopey's list completely packs it to Chalice @ 2. Not saying his is bad, it's not, but it needs a way to not lose to Faerie Stompy and 5/3.

Here's the list I've been using.

4 Meddling Mage
3 Dark Confidant
3 Serendib Efreet
2 Juton Grunt

4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
2 Sleight of Hand
3 Predict
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vindicate/Engineered Explosives

4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Sideboard:
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Vindicate/Engineered Explosives
2 Disenchant
1 Serenity
2 Armageddon
2 Perish
3 Engineered Plague
3 Duress

I personally think Portent bites, so I prefer Sleight of Hand instead. Yes, I'm aware of the lack of Predict synergy. Edicts make the Thres game a bit stronger for Mongeese, and the Vindicate/EE slot is necessary removal. I have the one Serenity in the sb as I think artifacts decks are starting to grow in popularity.

Anyway, yeah.

EDIT: I'm also currently looking for a solid possible replacement for Serendib. Although I love the fat, I want to find a fattie that doesn't have life loss, as this deck can go down pretty quick. I've looked through the colors and what didn't contain life loss or graveyard dependency and the best results I can find are Negators, which I really don't want to try in this deck.

Just add more Jittes. 3 Jittes should alleviate the lifeloss, and is probably one of the most important cards in the Aggro/Aggro Control matchup. Also, 3 Jotun Grunt seems like it should be standard, and it goes double for this deck seeing as it runs less draw than usual.

I like Efreet as a replacement for Wretched Anurid, as the lifeloss doesn't seem as rediculous against something like Goblins (where it matters), has evasion, can block Mongeese and live, and all for a single more mana. If it's lifeloss is proving troublesome, try bumping the Jitte count up a bit and see if that helps out.

[Di]

Just add more Jittes. 3 Jittes should alleviate the lifeloss, and is probably one of the most important cards in the Aggro/Aggro Control matchup. Also, 3 Jotun Grunt seems like it should be standard, and it goes double for this deck seeing as it runs less draw than usual.

I like Efreet as a replacement for Wretched Anurid, as the lifeloss doesn't seem as rediculous against something like Goblins (where it matters), has evasion, can block Mongeese and live, and all for a single more mana. If it's lifeloss is proving troublesome, try bumping the Jitte count up a bit and see if that helps out.

Adding another Jitte when running so few creatures doesn't really seem like the right idea honestly. But I'll have to test it. I also don't trust 3 md Grunts, as they kill the grave rather quickly and die.

Also, don't get me wrong I love Efreet, it's nuts. I've just had a few games where the life loss has killed me, so a possible replacement would be nice.

[Alfred]

Adding another Jitte when running so few creatures doesn't really seem like the right idea honestly. But I'll have to test it. I also don't trust 3 md Grunts, as they kill the grave rather quickly and die.

Also, don't get me wrong I love Efreet, it's nuts. I've just had a few games where the life loss has killed me, so a possible replacement would be nice.

You could probably replace one of them with those Serra Avengers (2 mana 3/3 flying vigilance from Timespiral), and just one so that you don't draw it in your opening hand, and reduce the amount of unneccissary damage you take over the course of the game.

Also, 3 Grunts is good. Trust me, I find it usually dies when you can't pay the cost by a small amount. Running 2 is a good way to never see one at all. You're also running Brainstorms, and deck manipulation/Fetchlands, so getting rid of one you don't want is never a problem. I've been testing this deck quite a bit, and I wouldn't play any more or less than 3 Grunts.

EDIT: Also, I think Portent is just better in this deck than Sleight of Hand. Not only because it lets you abuse Predict, and lets you see and manipulate 4 extra cards (including the shuffle) it also has good synergy with Dark Confidant, allowing you to minimize lifeloss. I think that it should get the nod due to the great amount of synergy it provides over Sleight.

[Di]

You could probably replace one of them with those Serra Avengers (2 mana 3/3 flying vigilance from Timespiral), and just one so that you don't draw it in your opening hand, and reduce the amount of unneccissary damage you take over the course of the game.

Also, 3 Grunts is good. Trust me, I find it usually dies when you can't pay the cost by a small amount. Running 2 is a good way to never see one at all. You're also running Brainstorms, and deck manipulation/Fetchlands, so getting rid of one you don't want is never a problem. I've been testing this deck quite a bit, and I wouldn't play any more or less than 3 Grunts.

EDIT: Also, I think Portent is just better in this deck than Sleight of Hand. Not only because it lets you abuse Predict, and lets you see and manipulate 4 extra cards (including the shuffle) it also has good synergy with Dark Confidant, allowing you to minimize lifeloss. I think that it should get the nod due to the great amount of synergy it provides over Sleight.

Serra Avenger is a solid option and can possibly get in there as atleast a 1of, due to it's WW cost.

I'm still iffy on 3 Grunts, but it's still worth a shot to test.

Also, I had Portent in this deck for a while. I really don't like it. I'm just not a fan of the card. For sorcery speed, I want the card draw immediately.

[Angel of Despair]

I would try the Grunts. They kick my ass! I played against about 3 decks that had maindeck Grunt. He beats White Thresh pretty good. He is really good in my meta, since there are a lot of decks that use the graveyard.

[Di]

I would try the Grunts. They kick my ass! I played against about 3 decks that had maindeck Grunt. He beats White Thresh pretty good. He is really good in my meta, since there are a lot of decks that use the graveyard.


2 Juton Grunt

[Tosh]

What does everyone think about Juzam Sliver (Plague Sliver)? He's a 5/5 for 4 that costs a life per turn (as does Serendib Efreet). The only reason that it isn't strictly better than Efreet is that it doesn't have flying and it costs double black.

[Tosh]

Sorry to double post but it has been a long time and I think that this deck deserves more discussion. I have done very well with the following decklist (there are some open slots that I'm not sure what exactly should go in there) at my local tournament.

// Lands
3 Underground Sea
1 [MR] Plains (3)
3 [b] Tundra
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [8E] Island (1)
1 [ST] Swamp (4)

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [CS] Jotun Grunt
4 [PS] Meddling Mage

// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 [MM] Counterspell
3 [NE] Daze
4 [FD] Serum Visions
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top (better than portent because we don't need the card in the graveyard like Thresh does)
4 [OD] Predict
[I]+2 [] Open Slot

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [NE] Seal of Cleansing
+3 [] Open Slot

[B] Match-ups:

:2-Land Belcher (2-0)
Basically an auto-win because of daze, FoW, and their inability to deal w/ Meddling Mages.

:Goblins (2-1)[this is as much as I can be 100% sure of]
So far this deck has had good results with goblins with E. Plague in the sideboard and Thresh's cantrip base (Portent -> S.D. Top) to get them.

:U/G Madness (1-2)
These were very long games and I wasn't exactly sure how to play against this deck. Madness went 4-0 in the hands of one of our best players that night.

:Threshold (4-1)
This is a very good match-up mainly because of the MD Grunts. There isn't too much to say here other than to make sure to keep Mongoose and Worships off the table.

:Truffle Shuffle (2-0)
Top + card advantage basically made these games very easy. Grunt was big enough to hold him back for a little while not to mention putting those pesky Scarabs back into his library.

*Thats all I can remember ATM and I really should get back to writing my essay... More to come*

[Evil Roopey]

How in God's name do you plan on beating Goblins? I know you say you went 2-1 against it but seriously the other 7 games should make it around 2-8. Without big cheap creatures like Anurid and instead 8 small creatures that suck at combat and no Jitte you will lose. Trust Gro plays Watchwolf and Jotun Grunt and barely gets by. Goblins is a rough matchup. Underestimating them is a horrible, horrible plan.

I think that until black gets another decent 2cc 3/3 this deck will be worse than Miracle-Gro in a format dominated by Goblins.

[Tosh]

I don't get why people fear goblins so much... Yes, they're good but they're not that good. If you know how to play against it it isn't that hard to beat. All you have to do in the beginning is keep Vial and Lackey off the table (daze works the best as they are usually turn 1 plays) and by the time they have a piledriver/warchief you should have an E. Plague on the table. The Swords also help a lot. Do not underestimate the creatures I'm running. If you would like to actually do more extensive testing on my list go right ahead -- I believe the 2 MD slots I used are 2x Moroii and the 3 SB slots were Diabolic Edicts.

[Hanni]

I agree with Evil Roopey somewhat. Goblins is a very difficult matchup and is one that everyone seems to overlook. You will go to a tournament, you will play Goblins, and you will probably lose.

However, I disagree with Roopey when he says that this deck cannot compete in a format with Goblins. It can compete, it just needs to be tweaked. Stifle is better than Counterspell vs Goblins, Mother of Runes makes your aggro base much better vs Goblins, etc. I also like Serra Avenger.

On a sidenote, I'd like to say that relying purely on Engineered Plague to win the matchup against Goblins is a very bad idea. Oftentimes, they will keep you off the 3 mana or black source you need to cast it via Wasteland and Rishadan Port. Other times, it will not save you if you cannot commit a threat to the board through their Fanatics, Gempalms, and StP's while they swing with 1/1 Ringleaders and Warchiefs. Other times, you simply won't draw into E Plague. It's definitely an amazing card vs Goblins but it does not cause an auto-win by itself.

[Evil Roopey]

However, I disagree with Roopey when he says that this deck cannot compete in a format with Goblins. It can compete, it just needs to be tweaked. Stifle is better than Counterspell vs Goblins, Mother of Runes makes your aggro base much better vs Goblins, etc. I also like Serra Avenger.

Note that I did not say this deck was bad, just that it is worse than Miracle-Gro in the current meta-game. Also note, that adding shitty creatures like Mom to the deck will only make it worse.

[Tosh]

In the Pro Tour in Kobe a deck similar to EBA top-8'd. Here's Fleury Laurent's decklist:

Land (18)
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 PlainsCreatures (16)
4 Meddling Mage
4 Dark Confidant
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Mother of Runes
2 Serendib EfreetOther Spells (26)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Stifle
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Pithing NeedleSideboard (15)
4 Engineered Plague
4 Duress
2 Pithing Needle
2 Disenchant
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa's JitteI think that the Jitte's give it a little more survivability as well as a faster clock, which is good. This deck uses more of Meat Hook's idea more than Thresh's; however, the addition of Jitte is not possible in Meat Hooks it is in the blacker version. We should seriously start reconsidering EBA. Obviously, in order to top 8, the deck had to beat at least one goblin deck.

[Evil Roopey]

Here's the list that I think I'm playing at the GP, non of you give a shit, but I like it.

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [B] Plains (3)
2 [MR] Island (2)
3 [A] Tundra
3 [A] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
4 [CS] Jotun Grunt
4 [PS] Meddling Mage
3 [US] Flesh Reaver

// Spells
4 [IA] Portent
4 [IA] Ray of Erasure
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
4 [NE] Daze
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OD] Predict

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [7E] Duress
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

GOBS IS FINALLY ON THE DECLINE!

[Hanni]

Ray of Erasure is pretty neat tech for dealing with Hulk Flash... and I'm positive that's the only reason you're running the card.

Have you considered Extirpate? It seems like it would be really strong to cast Ray or Predict on the card they put on top with Tutors, and then Extirpate it to secure the win.

[Evil Roopey]

I like it.

-4 Leyline
+4 Extirpate

[Nihil Credo]

Props for getting me to look up a card mentioned in a non-joke post. That does not happen very often.

Slops for going to get raped by Chalices of the Void, which will be out in force at the GP.

Also, since you know Red Death: Negators instead of Reavers, maybe? Trample is huge, it means they are actually good against creatures (StP anything bigger than 2/2 and run over the rest). 4 MD Stifles considerably reduce the risk factor involved; they do that with Reaver too, but Reavers require more hits in order to be lethal.

[Evil Roopey]

Only 1 more hit, and considering Red Death is gonna be out in force as well getting it Bolted/Chained or running into other 5/5s and 4/4s isn't good. I like Stifle + Reaver a lot.

On Chalice, it doesn't rape me that bad. I have counters, draw spells and all my creatures that cost 2. And g2 you have Duress and Jitte(which shortens the game and gives you more 2cc spells.) S'all good on a card that will have a hard time resolving in the first place.

The amount of tricks in this deck is so rediculous, it's fun as shit to play.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I wouldn't anticipate that much Chalice at the top tables, as it's decidedly bad against Flash itself.

[Evil Roopey]

I wouldn't anticipate that much Chalice at the top tables, as it's decidedly bad against Flash itself.

That solves that problem.

Just for old times sake, you are all stupid!! :P

[Citrus-God]

I like it.

-4 Leyline
+4 Extirpate

Who knew that Extirpate is actually a reactive disruption card? Leylines better go back in the deck again. Leylines are actually good, and Extirpate waits for your opponent to do something before it becomes effective.

[Nihil Credo]

"Chalice doesn't rape me that bad"? You run 20 1cc card, more than even Threshold, and we all know what Chalice does to Threshold. "S'all good", yeah.

Also, Chalice isn't great hate against Hulk Flash, but it's not "decidedly bad" either. If you can stop them from going off turn 1/2 (be it with Leyline, countermagic, discard, or a resolved Meddling Mage), then Chalice@1 hits so many of their tutors and draw spells that it *will* hamper their recovery. A lot. Considering that it's very powerful against Threshold and non-Flash combo as well, it's a card that will definitely see play, both MD and SB.

[Evil Roopey]

Who knew that Extirpate is actually a reactive disruption card? Leylines better go back in the deck again. Leylines are actually good, and Extirpate waits for your opponent to do something before it becomes effective.

That's not completely true, if the tutor for something and then you Ray/Predict it, it's fresh for Extirpating. Also, if it gets into late game (turns 4-5) you might have Portent+Predict/Ray in hand making it a nice little combo with Extirpate. Duress puts things in the yard you want there, and all of this is on top of the fact that they probably won't be going off on their first attempt, making Extirpate just end the game when they don't. So far I've been liking it, but that doesn't mean you have to play it, play Leyline if you want.

Chalice can be a problem, but IBA got me wondering how big it really is gonna be.

[Benie Bederios]

Hello

I like (most) decks you built Roopey. It's seems like a strong deck, but I do miss the Confidant, is there a particular reason you left him out? I'm gonna test this deck for sure.

BB

[BreathWeapon]

I wouldn't anticipate that much Chalice at the top tables, as it's decidedly bad against Flash itself.

It's the best card against Flash, at least 25% of the deck is 1cc and at 2cc the opponent can't win, the lowest win percentages I've found is against AfFOWnity and Faerie Stompy with 4 Force of Will, 4 Chalice of the Void and SB Trickbinds, and the 4 Chalice of the Void do most of the work.

What about adding Ritual and Specter along with something like Plague Sliver or Juzam Djinn?

[Citrus-God]

That's not completely true, if the tutor for something and then you Ray/Predict it, it's fresh for Extirpating. Also, if it gets into late game (turns 4-5) you might have Portent+Predict/Ray in hand making it a nice little combo with Extirpate. Duress puts things in the yard you want there, and all of this is on top of the fact that they probably won't be going off on their first attempt, making Extirpate just end the game when they don't. So far I've been liking it, but that doesn't mean you have to play it, play Leyline if you want.

Chalice can be a problem, but IBA got me wondering how big it really is gonna be.

Flash doesnt care about Chalice.... I doubt it's going to do well in a field of Flash.

I didnt think about Ray of Erasure and Predict comboing with Extirpate. Thanks for clearing that up, I didnt notice that.

[Hanni]

Well, pre-FS Flash with Worldly Tutor will care about Chalice @ 1. The lists running Lim Duls Vault instead of Worldly Tutor will care less about Chalice, but that doesn't mean Chalice still isn't going to see play at the GP.

Personally, I'd drop 2 Needle's for 2 EE in your board, Roopey. That way, you have an answer to Chalice in case you do see it, and EE can still answer (albeit less effeciently) some of the things you might wanna name with Needle.

[Evil Roopey]

So with the horribly underwhelming performance of Fish at Columbus maybe people will start looking at this deck. It's just better in almost every way.