[Deck] UBW Chalice

[Tosh]

So, at first I started with Neo Dump Truck but after seeing Glowrider and the potential it holds what it became no longer could be called neo dump truck.

I haven't thought of a name for the deck yet so for now its just UBW Aggro-control.

// Lands
4 [A] Underground Sea
4 Scrubland
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [9E] Swamp (2)
1 [OD] Plains (4)
1 [IA] Island (3)
3 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [PS] Meddling Mage
4 [LE] Glowrider
4 [LE] Withered Wretch
3 [TO] Mesmeric Fiend
4 [IN] Galina's Knight
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [AP] Vindicate
3 [ON] Smother
3 [b] Sinkhole
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [MR] Chrome Mox

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NE] Seal of Cleansing
SB: 3 [TE] Diabolic Edict
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague

[B].: Card Choices :.

Meddling Mage: All-around awesome card. It's a 2/2 for 2 and it is the best control on a creature.

Glowrider: This card spawned this deck, the potential against non-aggro decks is amazing.

Withered Wretch: Ultimate Thresh card and had to be included MD.

Mesmeric Fiend: Duress on a body (can grab creatures too) so it isn't touched by Glowrider.

Galina's Knight: Automatic 4-of when 3/5 of my meta is Gobs.

Dark Confidant: Drawing power. 'Nuff said. In a black deck with a mana curve as low as this one, you have to be stupid not to play this all-star.

Vindicate: All-purpose-kill-anything card. This guy gets rid of Pithing Needles, Worships, and pretty much anything else (except Troll Acetics and Nimble Mongoose. Yes, the plural for Mongoose is Mongoose NOT Mongeese you illiterate mofos!)

Smother: Handles: Piledrivers, Psychotog, Sharpshooter, Goblin Warchief, Werebear, and sooo many other things. It is targeted, which is why I run them MD over Diabolic Edicts.

Sinkhole: With a Chalice for 1 and 2 Glowriders out, land destruction is the icing on the cake -- this card seals their fate.

Chalice of the Void: I have been a big fan of this card. This card stop many decks in their tracks. With Chrome Mox, 1st turn Chalice for 1 owns many decks (no Lackeys and no Mongoose).

Chrome Mox: Allows for a 1st turn Chalice, Meddling Mage, or Galina's Knight.


--Sideboard--

Seal of Cleansing: Automatic 4-of in the SB of white decks.

Diabolic Edict: Use Vindicate and Smother to take care of other creatures and use this baby to take care of the Troll and Mongoose.

Leyline of the Void: Against Thresh this card is god. They might as well scoop if this starts in play w/ all the creature destruction played in this deck.

Engineered Plague: Automatic 4-of in SB if you plan on playing against Gobs.



.: Cards Not Put In :.

Swords to Plowshares: Too common am I Chalice-ing for 1 or Meddling Mage-ing for Swords to Plowshares (BGW Thresh's only creature removal) and these just interfere with them and become dead draws.

I will post how this deck's matchups soon.

[Atwa]

If you want to play aggro, why not play some equipment in the form of Sword of Fire and Ice?

Aside from the merfolk knight, the deck simply rolles over to a well timed pyroclasm (or massacre, etc)

Aside of that weakness I really like the deck. Somehow I feel like the sinkholes are a little random. I know with 4x Vindicate and 3x wasteland you have a decent LD base, but I can imagine you use Vindicate more on problem creatures/artifact/enchantments before you take out a land with it.

Somehow I feel the deck needs to stay loyal to its roots (aggro). I'm thinking about removing 3x Sinkhole in favor of SoFI. I'm not sure about the smothers, but wouldn't this spot be better if they were Swords to Plowshares? Smother can handel small things (your creatures can also do this), but what happens when your opponent drops a Darksteel Colossus/Exalted Angel/Eternal Dragon and you've already used the Vindicate to destoy something else?

[Tosh]

If you want to play aggro, why not play some equipment in the form of Sword of Fire and Ice? ... Somehow I feel the deck needs to stay loyal to its roots (aggro). I'm thinking about removing 3x Sinkhole in favor of SoFI.
Good point... I'll test 3x Sinkhole -> 3x Sword of Fire and Ice.


Aside from the merfolk knight, the deck simply rolles over to a well timed pyroclasm (or massacre, etc)
Thats what Meddling Mage is for, and maybe Sword of Fire and Ice if it works out well. :)


I'm not sure about the smothers, but wouldn't this spot be better if they were Swords to Plowshares? Smother can handel small things (your creatures can also do this), but what happens when your opponent drops a Darksteel Colossus/Exalted Angel/Eternal Dragon and you've already used the Vindicate to destoy something else?
See the newly added "Cards Not Put In" section.

[GoTreK]

Why exatly would you run SoFaI over Jitte? Jitte is without doubt the best equipment out there and it's faster than SoFaI - this could be particularly relevant with a glowrider in play. If you don't play Jitte because of Needle --> you still have Meddling Mage (ok, they'll probably name something else) and Vindicate.

I really like the idea though. I was just wondering if the Wretches are worth it since they need BB and with no Sinkholes (I agree, they don't fit here) they are the only card that does. Instead of UBW we could make it UWB/WUB and run the best weenies available: Silver Knight and Soltari Priest (replacing Wretch and possibly Galinas Knight).

Of course the Grow MU would suffer, but that would definately improve some other...

edit: btw I'd run Mesmeric Fiend and Confi as a 4 of

[Nightmare]

This thread is fairly close to the current EBA thread (seen here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4092)). While this deck utilizes different cards to do it, both decks have a very similar plan of action, and if this deck develops in that direction, I'll merge them for ease of reading.

[Phantom]

I'm not nuts about the lack of clock. Any chance you could fit a fattie like Seredib, Sea Drake, or even Moroii? Also, did you consider Trinket Mage? Fetches Chalice's or Moxen and you can run a bunch of one-ofs as a toolbox (needle, Eng Explosives, Cursed Scroll, Crypt, Bonesplitter, etc)

I kind of liked the LD side strategy, but if you're going to run it, run 4 Sinkhole, 4 Wastes and try to add Hymn. If you're going to drop it, I'd drop double black all together to help out your mana base. Wretch isn't needed to beat Thresh I'm thinking.

I'd test the Goblins matchup a lot. Seems to me like it would be quite unfavorable. Chalice @1 is a bomb against them, but only first turn on the play and it seems like your odds of doing that are quite small. Then you're just trading one-for-one with their creatures, while they disrupt your fragile manabase (basics or no) and praying for a knight to come down while it still matters.

I completely agree that Jitte >>> SoFI here for all the reasons above and more. I've had a ton of exp with both, and in a deck with no evasion like this, SoFI is only going to help the combo matchup, which seems pretty well set. Jitte is going to wreck aggro which you seem to need some help against. Plus, if you add Jitte, then you can drop crappy Smother down to a 2-of.

[mtj3]

Since you seem to be drifting away fromt he LD plan by ditching Sinkholes, why not replace the Wastelands with Ancient Tombs? That would give 3 more ways to get turn 1 Chalice @ 1 and help with casting/equipping Jitte or SoFI (Jitte is better IMHO) and getting Glowrider into play sooner.

Also, 24 mana sources seems a bit high for a deck that tops out at 3. I've never liked 4x Chrome Mox in a non-combo deck. I'd probably try cutting 1 Underground Sea, 1 Mox, and 3 Wastelands for 4 Ancient Tombs and the 4th Dark Confidant. Any deck that wants Bob, and this one certainly does, really should be playing all 4.

[GoTreK]

I think that both adding Tombs and Efreets is a nice idea. After a few games - not real testgames, rather fun oriented - I got the same impression as Phantom: the deck lacks a clock. Moroii is strictly worse than Efreet and Sea Drake isn't as good (here) either.
That is my suggestion, even if it's probably far from optimal

// Lands
1 [IN] Plains (3)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [OD] Swamp (4)
4 [B] Tundra
4 [B] Scrubland
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 [LE] Glowrider
4 [PS] Meddling Mage
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [TO] Mesmeric Fiend (not sure whether 3 or 4)
3 [SC] Silver Knight (WW could be a problem, but he is just so good...)
4 [AN] Serendib Efreet (I'm not quite sure if 3 would be sufficient)

// Spells
4 [AP] Vindicate
3 [ON] Smother
3 [MR] Chrome Mox (4 are too much imho)
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte (should we maybe even add a 4th? pure aggro seems to be our main problem)
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

Even if I like Trinket Mage and the idea of a little toolbox I don't know if we have enough slots - we need at least 5-6 for 3-4 Mages + 2-3 Tools.

[MysticBlue]

my 2 cents...

2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
2 Scrubland

1 Tormod's Crypt *With the exception of Jitte, all are fetchable with Trinket Mage
1 Meekstone
1 Cursed Scroll
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Duress
3 Daze
4 Vindicate
3 Dromar's Charm *Provides CMC3 for Counterbalance, and is all round useful, despite high casting cost. life vs aggro, creature removal and overcosted hard counter at worst in a pinch

2 Counterbalance

4 Dark Confidant
2 Withered Wretch *Many decks interact with graveyards nowadays. Hence MD slots.
4 Meddling Mage
3 Trinket Mage

This deck is evolving the original towards more control-oriented rather than aggro. If that is not the direction the authors of the thread wish to pursue, please ignore this post.

As for number choices, here is how i rate them -
4-of, I'd like to see them in most opening hands/games.
3-of, would like to see every game that lasts beyond turn 4 (i know, i know, it doesn't always happen, but i *would like* it to happen).
2-of, long game appearances. not *crucial* to deck function, but useful nonetheless.
1-of, tutorable. These are rough guides, but that is how i view the various cards in this deck.

[Tosh]

I really like the idea of trinket mage, but my only quarrel with it is that it costs 3 to play. He is an excelent tutor but in order to be effective against the teir 1 decks right now, it has to be fast. A chalice on turn 2 or 3 is not nearly as effective as a chalice turn 1 and most likely insignificant at that point. Since this deck is aggro-control it really can swing both ways as long as it will work.

[GoTreK]

Mystic Blue, I think your deck is not only more control-oriented, but plays completely differently. To be quite frank, I don't like it at all and think that the build is rather horrible.
Basically all your "spells" are based on having a Trinket Mage to tutor for them, even if a) it's not sure that you draw one b) some of them will be only half as useful by then.
Furthemore I don't see how you want to win with this list. You got only 13 creas and none of them is bigger than 2/2 or has any valuable (fighting) abilities.

[Citrus-God]

3c Angel Stompy with Chalice would be a cool idea. 3c Angel Stompy is sorta like Dump Truck, so it shouldnt hurt so much...


// Mana 23
3 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
4 Scrubland
4 Tundra
2 Plains


// Creatures 20
4 Silver Knight
4 Serendib Efreet
4 Meddling Mage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Exalted Angel


// Spells 18
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Tangle Wire
4 Vindicate


// Sideboard 15
2 Armageddon
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Duress
3 Disenchant
2 Wasteland

[Hanni]

Mr. Nightmare, this deck is also similar to mine:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4046

All 3 of the UWb decks are Fish is essence, even though they each have slightly different variations. There are so many directions that UWb Fish can go that it is impossible to have an optimal decklist for it... but how many UWb Fish decks are going to be considered different archtypes?

I guess that archtype thing is purely dependant on what makes tournament appearances.

[Pinder]

After testing against this deck a lot, I've concluded that we need to name it Glowfish. Fishy enough to be fish, and original enough to be it's own archetype.

Or we could call it 'Neo Pickup Truck' :laugh:.

[Finn]

Klaan, I love this idea. I have been toying with something along these lines for a while, and I may just go with something very much like this.

One card I have been very pleased with is Augustine IV and Court Hussar (insane with Jitte) Some reasons I have not settled on a decklist so far include:

1. Is Chalice really good enough in a 3-color deck which I presume can not run either City of Traitors or Ancient Tomb?

2. In builds I have been toying with (very similar to yours) only Glowrider and Vindicate benefit from the reduced spell cost of Augustine.

3. It's a bit slow in general.


EDIT: I suppose I should post a list-like thing

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
4 Aether Vial
4 Winter Orb
3 Umezawa's Jitte (really good with Tangle Wire)

4 Court Hussar (really good with Jitte, not as good with Vial)
4 Meddling Mage
4 Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
4 Glowrider
3 Sea Drake (good with Winter Orb)

4 Wasteland
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Plain
5 Plains
5 Island

The way it looks now, it is a bit stax-like. I am not sure quite how to classify it.

[Tosh]

A couple of cards that I have been messing around with are:

Aether Vial
Winter Orb
Stormscape Familiar
Ancient Tomb

Aether Vial w/ 2 counters can play all creature in the deck save Glowrider.
Winter Orb, I am very pleased with. It provides a special lock with Glowrider that makes me tingle inside.
Stormscape Familiar, reduces the cost of Smother and Vindicate and helps counter Glowrider's effect on me.
Ancient Tomb: I've considered Wasteland -> Ancient Tomb to make 1st turn Chalice more consistent.

[GoTreK]

Adding Winter Orb and Vial would surely provide some focus on a certain strategy: Making it as hard as possible for the opponent to cast spells. Wastelands would fit in just fine then, I guess, as well as Augustin. He'd make both the Familiar's and the Glowriders job (Glowrider would remain anyway ofc). But I'm afraid cc4 is a bit too much, especially since the deck's greatest problem is that it's a bit slow (I have to agree with you there Finn).

[Finn]

Heh, I edited that last post a bit late. Augustin is predictably good against combo and control and not so good against aggro. But the effect is pretty big when he is on his game.

[GoTreK]

I'm not sure if I like the Hussar or not. On the one hand it's draw + creature, but he isn't exactly big and does nothing without Jitte.

Chalice + Vial is not that good either as we should avoid cc1 cards. Chalice without Tomb is only half as strong, too.

The deck seems like a mixture between your own ideas and Klaans, but I don't think that build will work.

I think it's necessary to discuss if we want to play with Chalice or not. Chalice means that we sort of "must" include 4 Tombs and Chrome Moxen, and imho NO vials. Winter Orb would be conceiveable, too, but he is rather a SB card as our Aggro MU is fairly weak and we therefore need to improve it which Orb doesn't at all.

If we don't want to run Chalice Hanni's Fish build is the way to go, I suppose.

[Pinder]

Aether Vial
Winter Orb



I think these are really the only ones that make in into the deck. I'm convinced that Ancient Tomb is too much colorless for a 3 color deck, and Stormscape Familiar? Nah.

Augustin seems like the bees knees, just because he makes your opponents spells (even creatures!) cost more, but, as mentioned, he doesn't do much in the 'reducing your cost' department. He helps offset the Glowrider cost for Vindicate though, making their spells 2 more, and yours none :D. You might add more U/W because of this.

I think Winter Orb deserves a slot. I've played against this deck, and a Chalice at 1 followed by a Glowrider is almost a soft lock. You can't play 1 mana spells, and your 2 mana spells cost 3. Throw an Orb into the mix, and they have to wait three full turns to untap enough mana to do anything. It's like Time Walk in a box.

EDIT: Okay, Time Walk in an Orb.

[Finn]

I'm not sure if I like the Hussar or not. On the one hand it's draw + creature, but he isn't exactly big and does nothing without Jitte.

Chalice + Vial is not that good either as we should avoid cc1 cards. Chalice without Tomb is only half as strong, too.

Yeah. Frankly I am not particularly experienced with the Chalice. I would consider cutting it entirely since Vial and Winter Orb is so butch. But since I am not certain how important it is yet, I am going with this bastardized version.

I wanna mention how good Court Hussar has been for me. With Augustin out, he is only two. At two, he is simply amazing, often chaining into the next. But vigilance with Jitte has really good implications as well. Please don't make the mistake of thinking this card is not good without Jitte. At the very least, it is an Impulse with a body that does not cost extra with Glowrider out.

What about Trinisphere instead of Chalice? Is that even a reasonable switch?

[GoTreK]

The problem with Orb is imho that by playing it we'd do most aggro-decks a favour because they have a stronger board position most of the time and we'll slow ourselves down in establishing our own game which could be lethal.

Against control and Combo that's a different matter of course.

edit: Court Hussar might actually be better than I thought. Btw what do you think of running Jitte as a 4 of as in Zilla-Stompy?

Mind that without Chalice we absolutely need some cc1 drops in addition to Vial.

[Finn]

STP and Mother of Runes come to mind, but I do not wish to hijack the thread.

EDIT: Cloud of fairies should be really good

[Pinder]

At the very least, it is an Impulse with a body that does not cost extra with Glowrider out.


On that same note, what about Azorius Herald? At worst he's a 2W gain life spell that doesn't get hit by Glowrider. At best he's a sexy 2/1 unblockable beat stick that stalls Aggro like a pro.



What about Trinisphere instead of Chalice? Is that even a reasonable switch?

I don't know. Trinisphere would probably wreck everything just as much as Chalice (between 3Shpere, a Glowrider, and Augustin, it's pretty much impossible for your opponent to play anything for less than 5). The only thing is, most of your spells are 2cc, which means it wrecks you a lot too. And if I read the cards right, having Augustin doesn't even help (it makes your dudes cost less, but then 3sphere makes them cost 3 again :( ). Could someone verify that?



Cloud of fairies should be really good


I completely agree. Between Vial and Augustin, it will make for some sick mana accel. And they fit nicely into another 2cc slot for Vial.



The problem with Orb is imho that by playing it we'd do most aggro-decks a favour because they have a stronger board position most of the time and we'll slow ourselves down in establishing our own game which could be lethal.


If the deck ends up being slow, you could be right about that, but if we can get out an Orb under 3sphere or Augustin or Glowrider, they won't be able to play their threats. That's shaping up to be the point of this deck, it seems.

Of course, that's assuming we even start running 3sphere, Augustin, Winter Orb, etc.

How about it, Klaan? Throw 'em in, and we'll play a couple of games.

[Tosh]

How about it, Klaan? Throw 'em in, and we'll play a couple of games.
I know you're at work but can u spare an MWS game or two?

and by 3sphere u mean Trinisphere right?
Augustin and Cloud of Faeries seems like good ideas. Lets see how it plays out.

P.S. I forgot your email pinder but I have a program to send you.

[Finn]

I ran this against 3 random/decent control decks this evening:

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Glowrider
3 Augustin
4 Court Hussar
4 Cloud of Fairies
3 Sea Drake
4 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Winter Orb
4 Aether Vial
4 Tangle Wire
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
5 Island
5 Plains

sb:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Man-o-War
3 Capashen Unicorn

The results were predictable. It performed well. A chalice would have been really nice in the main though. I don't like the prospects against aggro, either. Just the same, there is enough synergy in this setup to warrant a lot of testing.

[Pinder]

I know you're at work but can u spare an MWS game or two?

and by 3sphere u mean Trinisphere right?
Augustin and Cloud of Faeries seems like good ideas. Lets see how it plays out.

P.S. I forgot your email pinder but I have a program to send you.

Yeah, 3sphere means Trinisphere. Hence the '3' :P. Anyway, I don't have enough time on lunch (which was when I made my last post) to play MWS. And I don't have any time right now....but this sort of conversation is best left to PMs, lest the mods get restless. This thread is for Glowfish discussion. As such, I'll PM you my e-mail address.

[Pinder]

3 Sea Drake


How are Drakes in the main? I don't think they would be as great as they are in FS (with its crazy mox tricks), but they do provide a clock, I suppose.

I'm not sure I like moving Meddling Mage to the board though. He's just that good first turn off a chrome mox.

[Finn]

I "may" have something significant here. We could use Hokori Dust Drinker in place of the Tangle Wires or Winter Orbs. If you also include a Karakas or three, you have a pretty nasty soft lock.

You can Aether Vial out Hokori on your own turn and Kaakas him back to your hand at the end of the opponent's turn thus enabling your own lands while preventing his.

After some experience with the deck, I think that Hokori (at 4) will be roughly as expensive as Winter Orb (at 2) considering the cards in the deck that alter costs.

Also, Hokori does not work quite the same way as Winter Orb. There may be a way to sleaze these cards when using both. I am just brainstroming here.

[Finn]

double post - sry.
Drakes worked well so far.
Well, that is all true, but I took the moxen out as well. I suppose they should be put back in, though. They work poorly with Glowrider but well with Winter Orb/ Hokori. The Mox should certainly be in.

I just think the game vs. storm and salvager combo will be fairly good game one anyway. Glowrider is kinda hard for them to get around. And Tangle Wire hurts them as well. More tests are in order.

[Alfred]

Hey, why not add Zur the Enchanter? It only costs 4, is in all of the colors you control, and can get some really useful enchantments from your library into play.

Absolute Law
Ghostly Prison
Arcane Laboratory
Phyrexian Arena

Just some that spring to mind. It also has a fat behind, so it can dodge a lot of removal. You can also cast all of these things.

EDIT: Also, Engineered Plague. That seems like a good idea.

[GoTreK]

Azorius Herald seems like a decent addition to me. He is very nice with Jitte and helps the aggro MU as well.

I don't think Winter Orb, Sea Drake and Tangle Wire belong here, to be honest. At any rate I'd definately run Serendib Efreet over Drake.

I'm also not sure if Augustin is good enough - I'm afraid he isn't. His ability to make our spells cheaper is hardly of any use in this deck and he is manaintensive. His only useful ability won't be that relevant as he'll hit play too late anyway.

Finn I think MM and Confi should definately be run. Without Chalice we could add some cc1 drops which suits Confi even better.

If we want to imrpove the deck we should agree on a certain direction at first, otherwise we won't get anywhere - everyone is sort of working on his own deck right now which I think is quite inefficient.

[Finn]

Agreed, gotrek.

I think that should do this independently since I appear to thinking about a slightly different deck.

[Tosh]

I thought I'd post what I have in mind at the moment. So here is what it is looking like:
// Lands
4 [B] Scrubland
4 [B] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [7E] Swamp (4)

// Creatures
4 [LE] Glowrider
4 [PS] Meddling Mage
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [LE] Withered Wretch
2 [DIS] Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
3 [UL] Cloud of Faeries

// Spells
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [5E] Winter Orb
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [ON] Smother
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [LE] Withered Wretch
SB: 1 ??????
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [NE] Seal of Cleansing
SB: 4 [TE] Diabolic Edict

I really like the controlly aspects of Glowrider, Meddling Mage, and Chalice. Chalice is one of the best cards in this deck, it slows down gobs soooo much (which is rampant in my meta) and also stops those mongoose in Thresh (also rampant in my meta).

[GoTreK]

I'm not yet satisfied with your creaturebase. You simply have NO clock at all and when it comes to the pure body you got Glowrider, who is at that point a 2/1 for cc3 (dreadful) and a 2/3 for cc4 (same here). The rest is solid 2/2 for cc2, but isn't enough by half to keep up with aggro or to kill control/combo fast enough. Do you already have some test results that prove my "theories" wrong?

I also think 4 Vindicate + 4 Smother is an overkill. 3/3 or 4/2 seems more appropriate to me.

Are 4 Moxen really necessary?

[Tosh]

You say its too slow to compete against aggro and then ask why 4 moxen are in there... Moxen help speed up the deck, enableing for 1st turn almost anything in the whole deck. Vindicate and Smother are 4-ofs to destroy their creature base letting my 2 power creature run rampant.

[Pinder]

I'm more than satisfied with the clock at this point. If your opponent cant't play spells, 2 or 3 2/2's (or 2/1's, whatever) are more than enough of a clock. If you want to speed up the clock, I'm sure that Serendib Efreet is a decent enough include. It certainly warrants some testing. My only problem with it is that it's just straight up fat, it doesn't do much to help your gameplan (except speeding up your clock, I suppose).

I'm afraid I don't really like Augustin anymore, however. The benefit he gives to a whopping 2 of your spells just doesn't account for his huge cost and tiny body, even if he does make their spells cost 1 more. Add to that the fact that he's legendary, and suddenly you have dead cards in your hand. Stormscape Familiar (despite what I said earlier) seems like a better choice to me, since it still makes all your spells cheaper, is cheaper, and has evasion. Of course, we could always try the aforementioned Efreet in the Arbiter slot.

I agree with GoTrek that Azorius Herald needs to be in. I realize that he costs 3, but in all fairness under a Familiar he turns into a Life Burst with a warm 2/1 body. Even more importantly, it's an unblockable body that can carry a jitte, which turns into more lifegain in a pinch, creature removal if you need it, and absolute beatstickery when you don't. I'll take 4, please.

Based off of Klaan's earlier list, it could turn into something like this:

//Land
4 Scrubland
4 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Swamp
1 Island

// Creatures
3 Glowrider
4 Meddling Mage
4 Dark Confidant
3 Azorius Herald
2 Serendib Efreet
3 Cloud of Faeries
2 Stormscape Familiar

// Spells
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Winter Orb
3 Vindicate
3 Smother
4 Chrome Mox
3 Umezawa's Jitte

I left the Winter Orbs in for now, but if we're not running Aether Vial, I'm tempted to agree with GoTrek that they might need to come out, seeing as they hurt you too. I squeezed in a couple of Familiars because I like how they interact with Glowrider, Smother, Vindicate, Azorius Herald, and Dark Confidant. I took GoTrek's advice and dropped the Vindicate/Smother to 3/3 to fit in the Familiars. The only problem there being that currently they're a 2-of, and as fragile as they are at 1/1, it might need to be either 4 or zero. I might end up cutting either Efreet or the Familiar to bump the other to 4. Only further testing will tell.

Also, I think that between Chalice and Jitte, Finn was right about Tangle Wire. It's definitely better for this deck than Winter Orb, at any rate.

EDIT: After some testing, I have concluded that Winter Orb is teh sux. It's not that great early game, and it's a horrible topdeck. I'm not sure what to put in instead, but I would up the Vindicate/Smother count back to 4 each, and we should probably look into maindecking more cards to help with the Aggro matchup, as that's the only thing I seem to be suffering against with the above list.

Oh and Azorius Herald is the shit. I can't begin to tell you how many times this dude lets you stabilize against aggro. He's just fantastic.

EDIT SOME MORE: I think I just had an epiphany. Sort of. This deck is all about keeping them from playing their noncreature spells via Glowrider, Chalice, and mana denial, right? The main problem I keep dealing with is that there's not too much we can do about the creatures they do cast, since they aren't any more expensive. On that note, I think we need a lot more creature removal. Well, not a lot, but perhaps some sort of mass removal that doesn't wreck us? I think that if we can keep their spells in their hand, and their creatures off the board, this deck will do a lot better. Thoughts?

[Tosh]

//Land
4 Scrubland
4 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Swamp
1 Island

// Creatures
3 Glowrider
4 Meddling Mage
4 Dark Confidant
3 Azorius Herald
2 Serendib Efreet
3 Cloud of Faeries
2 Stormscape Familiar

// Spells
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Winter Orb
3 Vindicate
3 Smother
4 Chrome Mox
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Couple thoughts here:

First of all, I'd run 4 Glowriders and 3 Bob over the other way. Reason being: 2 Glowriders is awesome; 2 Bobs is gonna kill me.

Second, Tangle Wire... hrm not bad.

Third, There is a reason why I'm running Vindicate AND Smother. (If familiar worked the way I thought it would :cry: I was considering mortify) I have no idea other than maybe Engineered Plague (only hitting a couple of their creatures) as mass creature removal for only their creatures in our colors (and WoG is a BAD idea).

Fourth, Lets keep it at 4x Flooded Strand 2x Bloodstained Mire because that's what I have :tongue:

[Pinder]

Couple thoughts here:

First of all, I'd run 4 Glowriders and 3 Bob over the other way. Reason being: 2 Glowriders is awesome; 2 Bobs is gonna kill me.

Okay, I agree with you there.

Have you considered Loxodon Gatekeeper? I know he'd push your curve all the way up to four (gasp!), but between Familiar and Chrome Mox you should be able to get him out fairly quickly anyway. Glowrider followed by Gatekeeper should effectively lock them out of the game for a fair while. You could Smother/Vindiate the dudes they get untapped and swing past the ones they don't. I haven't actually tested him yet, so I might just be blowing smoke, but he seems pretty good. The only mark he has against him would be his hefty CC, it seems.

[GoTreK]

You say its too slow to compete against aggro and then ask why 4 moxen are in there... Moxen help speed up the deck

Oh, thanks, I didn't know that... oO

I said indeed that it's too slow and I absolutely stand by that. Pinder's results prove that - even if he at first made the mistake to think Glowrider would slow them down enough, completely neglecting the fact that creaturespells aren't affected at all by Glowrider. Therefore we need the Efreet or something similar.
As to the Mox, yes, we do need a clock and we do need to speed up the deck but not at any cost! The carddisadvantage just sucks and you never ever want to have two of them in your openinghand.

@Pinder
So I was right about Orb and Herald?! ;)

[Pinder]

@Pinder
So I was right about Orb and Herald?! ;)

Yeah, yeah, you were right :tongue:. Don't let your head get too big.

I disagree with you about the Moxen though. I really like the speed they add, and in my games they never really hurt that bad in terms of card advantage (especially when you get a Bob out). Sure, multiples in the opening hand do suck, and for that reason we might cut them down to 3 (or even 2, I suppose) in favor of a higher threat count, or removal. But I don't think they need to go away completely.

I think this decks main problem is that it's great against one Tier 1 deck (Solidarity), semi-decent against another (Thresh), and horrible against the best (Gobs). We really need something against dedicated aggro, as right now any sort of Zoo or Stompy just...stomps us. Hell, I've lost to black sui with this thing.

Maybe Parallax Wave? I haven't tested it at all, I'm just throwing out an idea.

[GoTreK]

Ofc the Moxen are nice and I never wanted to cut them completely. 3 is perfectly fine with me...

[Finn]

Tangle Wire may be what you are looking for. It is one of the few cards that are good against both Gobs and Solidarity, and everything in between. It's just hard to cast it when Glowrider is out (especially in my build with Hokori).

Of course, you need to come up with a more permanent solution while the Wire holds 'em down. What would that be?

EDIT: I almost forgot to mention - I am considering both Windborn Muse and Man-O-War to provide that more permanent solution.

EDIT: And isn't Chrome Mox awful with Glowrider?

[Tosh]

You shouldn't be playing the Chrom Mox when you have a glowrider out because if you have a glowrider out it means that you have enough mana (don't over-extend now, there are Armaggedons and Wrath of Gods).

Oh and BTW: /agreed for the Tangle Wire

[GoTreK]

Basically Mox is just useful in your openinghand. Maybe as well as the first draw but after that it's awful.

Windborn Muse is actually pretty nice, it really is. It's not only a Ghostly Prison (for which we don't have to pay the extra mana) which is a very nice card against aggro anyway but also a 2/3 critter with evasion and therefore a good Jitte carrier. Even if Man-o-war is also pretty good the Muse is a more permanent solution and that's exactly why I'd prefer her. Muse + Wire would be quite nice, but I'm not sure what to think of Wire + Glowrider. But probably the advantages outshine the disadvantages in this case.

edit: btw do we still want to play Confi? I don't want to miss the enormous CA he provides but with Muse, Wires, Vindicates etc the curve is too high by far... :(

[Pinder]

Basically Mox is just useful in your openinghand. Maybe as well as the first draw but after that it's awful.


For that reason, I think we should keep it at at least 3, just because we want to see this thing in our opening hand, but don't want to see too many multiples later on. I don't think we'd get them turn 1-2 consistently with only 2, and they suck late game, so any less than 3 and we should probably cut them (not saying that we should cut them, just that we shouldn't run less than 3).



Windborn Muse is actually pretty nice, it really is. It's not only a Ghostly Prison (for which we don't have to pay the extra mana) which is a very nice card against aggro anyway but also a 2/3 critter with evasion and therefore a good Jitte carrier.


The fact that she doesn't cost any more isn't really that fantastic, since she already costs as much as a Ghostly Prison under Glowrider. She's still better though, since she has a warm (flying) 2/3 body. Decent include, sure.

The only issue I see here is that our mana curve is creeping higher, and higher...



edit: btw do we still want to play Confi? I don't want to miss the enormous CA he provides but with Muse, Wires, Vindicates etc the curve is too high by far... :(


We could always run SDT I suppose. It's not really synergistic with Glowrider, but the next best thing in creature form is Information Dealer (blech). Either way they would cost the same, and an SDT will probably hit the table before Glowrider anyway.

I really like Confidant in this deck, and when he's wielding a Top he not only nets you card advantage, but excellent card quality :D.

As for tangle wire, it's super cool, but it costs more after a Glowrider hits, and it makes us tap too. Between Chalice and Jitte, this might no be much of a problem though. I haven't done any testing with it, how difficult does it usually make playing stuff?

[Tosh]

edit: btw do we still want to play Confi? I don't want to miss the enormous CA he provides but with Muse, Wires, Vindicates etc the curve is too high by far... :(
You're right, the mana curve is creeping too high, especially in the noncreature department. I did some goldfishing with tangle wires and, although I can't judge it by it's effects on only myself, it slows me down a lot -- I think too much. Don't get confused, we do not want this turning into a control with splashed aggro but rather the other way around. I'm having second thoughts on Jitte; I want to run more creatures and more creature destruction.

[Pinder]

I'm having second thoughts on Jitte; I want to run more creatures and more creature destruction.

Umm....Klaan? Jitte is creature removal. And lifegain. And pump. And carrying it into your opponent's face in the hands of your flyers and unblockable life bursts is amazing against aggro. Especially non-flying Goblin aggro :wink:.

Lay off the drugs man. I'd consider knocking it down to a 2-of, but Jitte should definitely be included.

[Durahan]

I think sphere of resistance would be interesting in this type of deck as well.

[GoTreK]

Cutting Jitte imho isn't a good choice at all. As I stated previously, I even think about running 4 as they are EVERYTHING you need in >1< card. With Azorious Herald and some flyers it's just sick.

Sphere doesn't fit
-->

Don't get confused, we do not want this turning into a control with splashed aggro but rather the other way around.

[Durahan]

What about Blinding Angel? It pretty much stops Aggro in its tracks, and it has a fat enough ass to shrug off a lightning bolt. Between Familiars and Augustin (if we start running him again), she should come out at a fairly economical cost. Give her a Jitte, and you've pretty much sealed Aggro's fate, no?

[Tosh]

Here's a list I have been toying around with a little bit and it seems decent, although I need to do a little more testing.

// Lands
4 [B] Scrubland
4 [B] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [7E] Swamp (4)
1 [R] Plains (3)

// Creatures
4 [LE] Glowrider
4 [PS] Meddling Mage
3 [DIS] Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
4 [PS] Stormscape Familiar
4 [EX] Merfolk Looter

// Spells
3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [ON] Smother
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
2 [7E] Engineered Plague
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [LE] Withered Wretch
SB: 2 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [NE] Seal of Cleansing
SB: 4 [TE] Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 [] ???

With the addition of Infernal Tutor and 2 MD Engineered plagues I find my match up against aggro much better (esp. goblins). It is easy to get hellbent when you play all your cards quickly and with the mana cost reducers and the Looter to get rid of dead cards (extra Augustins) to be able to play the newly drawn card. So, tell me what you think!