Akroma + Animate Dead...

[Watcher487]

Here is the problem.

My opponent has Akroma in the graveyard.
He casts Animate Dead.

Now according to my opponent this is what happens:

Animate Dead becomes an enchantment that targets Akroma.
Akroma comes into play because of Animate Dead.
Animate Dead becomes an Aura and attempts to attach to Akroma.
Akroma's Pro-Black kicks in and Animate Dead is put into the Graveyard.

So he has Akroma in play and Animate Dead in the Graveyard.

Now here is my version:

Animate Dead becomes an enchantment that targets Akroma.
Akroma comes into play because of Animate Dead.
Animate Dead becomes an Aura and attempts to attach to Akroma.
Animate Dead attaches to Akroma (attach doesn't target).
State based effects kicks in and Animate Dead is put into the Graveyard.
Akroma is put into the Graveyard, due to Animate Dead's third ability (doesn't target).

Now who is right? I know this looks simple at first but this really did make or break a recent tourney. So before you post, please check and see if you can back this up with any respectable rulings or w/ Oracle.

Thanks again.

[tivadar]

Well, I don't think you need anything but the card rulings for this one...:

When Animate Dead comes into play, if it's in play, it becomes an enchant creature. Put target creature card from a graveyard into play under your control enchanted by Animate Dead.
Enchanted creature gets -1/-0.
When Animate Dead leaves play, destroy enchanted creature. It can't be regenerated.

Animate dead never targets the live creature. The creature comes into play with animate dead enchanting it. DEBT means that as soon as it hits play, the enchantment falls off. In a sense both of you are wrong, it never "attempts to attach" to Akroma, it is attached, then falls off. As soon as it falls off, akroma goes back to the graveyard.
EDIT: Actually, you're more right here, it is attached, I hadn't considered things that go poof after leaving the graveyard. But yes, attaching doesn't target.

In addition, if I remember correctly, this all happens as a state-based effect. That means that no one receives priority between akroma hitting play and it going back to the graveyard. Your opponent would not be able to echoing truth akroma back to their hand, and you wouldn't be able to STP it, before it made it back to the graveyard.

I'm sure on the first part, not positive on the second.

EDIT: I am WRONG. Sorry, stupid rules for enchantments changing!

[quicksilver]

Now here is my version:

Animate Dead becomes an enchantment that targets Akroma.
Akroma comes into play because of Animate Dead.
Animate Dead becomes an Aura and attempts to attach to Akroma.
Animate Dead attaches to Akroma (attach doesn't target).
State based effects kicks in and Animate Dead is put into the Graveyard.
Akroma is put into the Graveyard, due to Animate Dead's third ability (doesn't target).

You are completly correct here.


In short animate dead + akroma does not equal combo.


In addition, if I remember correctly, this all happens as a state-based effect. That means that no one receives priority between akroma hitting play and it going back to the graveyard. Your opponent would not be able to echoing truth akroma back to their hand, and you wouldn't be able to STP it, before it made it back to the graveyard.
This is not true. Yes the animate dead goes into the graveyard before any player recieves priority. However killing the akroma is a triggered ability of the Animate dead, which you can respond to. So each player has the option of swordsing/bouncing akroma. Also, animate dead + akroma + stifle = combo!

If you really want some oracle shit, I guess I shall look it up and I'll be back shortly.

edit: Here is your oracle shit.

First the oracle text on the card:

When Animate Dead comes into play, if it's in play, it becomes an Aura with enchant creature. Put target creature card from a graveyard into play under your control and attach Animate Dead to it.
Enchanted creature gets -1/-0.
When Animate Dead leaves play, destroy enchanted creature. It can't be regenerated.

Now the relevant ruling from the comprehensive rule book (an expert from rule 415.3):

415.3. Aura spells are always targeted. An Aura’s target is specified by its enchant keyword ability (see rule 502.45, “Enchant”). An Aura permanent doesn’t target anything; only the spell is targeted.

And here is a bit of rules on protection:

502.7c A permanent with protection can’t be enchanted by Auras that have the stated quality. Such Auras attached to the permanent with protection will be put into their owners’ graveyards as a state-based effect. (See rule 420, “State-Based Effects.”).

And a little bit about state-based effects:

420.3. Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 408, “Timing of Spells and Abilities”), the game checks for any of the listed conditions for state-based effects. All applicable effects resolve as a single event, then the check is repeated. Once no more state-based effects have been generated, triggered abilities go on the stack, and then the appropriate player gets priority. This check is also made during the cleanup step (see rule 314); if any of the listed conditions apply, the active player receives priority.

As we can see from the oracle wording of animate dead, it does target akroma in the graveyard, and then brings it into play, which all parties are in agreement that this is fine which it is.

The descrepancy is, does the aura get attached before it dies or does it die before it gets attached?

As the definition of protection shows, protection does not stop the aura from becoming attached. "Such Auras attached to the permanent with protection will be put into their owners’ graveyards as a state-based effect." State based effects are not checked in the middle of spell resolution, they are check before players get priority, as shown by rule 420.3 quoted above. So the aura does attach to the creature since state-based effect are not checked until after it has been attached. Once the aura is attached state-based effects are checked before a player recieves priorty. The aura then goes to the graveyard and it's triggered ability triggers and goes onto the stack. Players then recieve prioty, once the trigger resolves then akroma dies.

[tivadar]

Ahh you're right, forgot about the trigger on the animate, priority does come into play, not that it should matter much.

[quicksilver]

Link to post
See my post above, I edited it with oracle shit.

[Bryant Cook]

The bitch just doesn't know whats good for her...

[Watcher487]

Thanks Gentlemen for the help. If any other judge would like to put any input to this it would be greatly appreciated.

Also, anyone looking to go to the Mana Leak tourney remember to bust this out if 'Caleb' decides to do this against you.

[iOWN]

The end result is an Akroma in play and Animate Dead in the graveyard. To reach this end, you must know the Oracle text of Animate Dead:

When Animate Dead comes into play, if it's in play, it becomes an Aura with enchant creature. Put target creature card from a graveyard into play under your control and attach Animate Dead to it.
Enchanted creature gets -1/-0.
When Animate Dead leaves play, destroy enchanted creature. It can't be regenerated.

So, when you play Animate Dead, you follow the steps that it says to do as much as able...

When Animate Dead comes into play, if it's in play, it becomes an Aura with enchant creature.

Easy enough...

Put target creature card from a graveyard into play under your control and attach Animate Dead to it.

So, Akroma comes back into play. Animate Dead, however, cannot be attached to the creature as the card instructs; as such, it never attaches. Note that Akroma is a legal target when it's in the graveyard, as protection doesn't do anything when a creature isn't in play.

Enchanted creature gets -1/-0.

Since it never gets attached, this never happens.

When Animate Dead leaves play, destroy enchanted creature. It can't be regenerated.

When Animate Dead finishes resolving, it doesn't have a creature attached to it, so there is no creature to enchant.

There you go, you now have an Akroma in play without Animate Dead attached to it.

[Tao]

Akroma will be in play and Animate Dead will be in the Graveyard. Animate Dead will never be attached to Akroma.

- Animate Dead targets Akroma, Akroma comes into play.
- A. Dead tries to attach to Akroma but fails because of Pro: Black
- A. Dead goes to yard, Akroma stays in play

[blarknob]

You guys are wrong. Akroma stays in play here is the relevant rule.

212.4k If an effect attempts to attach an Aura in play to a permanent or player, that permanent or player must be able to be enchanted by it. If the permanent or player can’t be, the Aura doesn’t move.

[quicksilver]

You guys are wrong. Akroma stays in play here is the relevant rule.

212.4k If an effect attempts to attach an Aura in play to a permanent or player, that permanent or player must be able to be enchanted by it. If the permanent or player can’t be, the Aura doesn’t move.

Hmm, I did not see rule 212.4k. It appears I was wrong.

[Watcher487]

You guys are not understanding the problem.

502.7c A permanent with protection can't be enchanted by Auras that have the stated quality. Such Auras attached to the permanent with protection will be put into their owners' graveyards as a state-based effect. (See rule 420, "State-Based Effects.")

What I believe is happening is that Animate Dead attaches to Akroma to fulfill the abilities of Animate Dead. Remember Attaching doesn't target. It is at this point in time that SBE are checked not before when you are in the middle of resolving Animate Dead

[quicksilver]

You guys are not understanding the problem.



If this is true than Animate Dead targets twice or attaching targets... which neither happens in the first place.

Yes you follow as much as the instructions give you but as per SBE (thank you Quicksilver) it is not checked in the middle of resolving a spell (This is how you get Akroma's Pro-black kick in) but after the spell is resolved.

Now if what you are considering happens (Akroma is in play w/o Animate Dead) consider what happens with Worldgorger then and the lack of loop you produce.

First,

502.7c A permanent with protection can’t be enchanted by Auras that have the stated quality.


212.4k If an effect attempts to attach an Aura in play to a permanent or player, that permanent or player must be able to be enchanted by it. If the permanent or player can’t be, the Aura doesn’t move.

So that seems that the aura doesn't move. Since it clearly states if it is not able to enchant it, the aura does not move. And protection does not allow it to be enchanted.

Worldgorger combo has nothing to do with this. Since worldgorger can be enchanted by it. So worldgorger gets enchanted before the triggered ability to remove your cards from the game even goes onto the stack.

[iOWN]

You guys are not understanding the problem.



If this is true than Animate Dead targets twice or attaching targets... which neither happens in the first place.

Yes you follow as much as the instructions give you but as per SBE (thank you Quicksilver) it is not checked in the middle of resolving a spell (This is how you get Akroma's Pro-black kick in) but after the spell is resolved.

Now if what you are considering happens (Akroma is in play w/o Animate Dead) consider what happens with Worldgorger then and the lack of loop you produce.

Read the rule that blarknob posted. Animate Dead fails to enchant Akroma, specifically because of that rule. However, it can still attach to Worldgorger Dragon, and Animate Dead finishes resolving before it triggers. That means it leaves play, the key difference between the two situations.

[blarknob]

You guys are not understanding the problem.
If this is true than Animate Dead targets twice or attaching targets... which neither happens in the first place.


That makes no sense please clarify.




Yes you follow as much as the instructions give you but as per SBE (thank you Quicksilver) it is not checked in the middle of resolving a spell (This is how you get Akroma's Pro-black kick in) but after the spell is resolved.

Now if what you are considering happens (Akroma is in play w/o Animate Dead) consider what happens with Worldgorger then and the lack of loop you produce.

Worldgorger dragon doesn't have protection from black so animate dead attaches to it without a problem.

[cdr]

When Animate Dead comes into play, if it's in play, it becomes an Aura with enchant creature. Put target creature card from a graveyard into play under your control and attach Animate Dead to it.
Enchanted creature gets -1/-0.
When Animate Dead leaves play, destroy enchanted creature. It can't be regenerated.

Short for me, but:

1) Animate Dead comes into play, its ability triggers, targets Akroma and begins resolving.
2) Animate Dead becomes an aura.
3) Akroma is put into play. Animate Dead attempts to attach to Akroma but can't, because black objects can't be attached to Akroma.
4) The ability finishes resolving. State based effects are checked. Animate Dead is put into the graveyard because it's an Aura not attached to something.
5) Animate Dead's leaves play ability triggers but does nothing since it was never attached to anything.

[AngryTroll]

Over at Star City, the ask the Judge database has a similar question. I am not sure what this ends up meaning...but here is the link.

http://www.starcitygames.com/pages/judgefinder.php?keywords=Animate+Dead

It is the last question for Animate Dead. I am not sure how that answer compares to the ones up here, or what level that judge is, but a ruling is a ruling.

[Lego]

It is the last question for Animate Dead. I am not sure how that answer compares to the ones up here, or what level that judge is, but a ruling is a ruling.

There's a similar question from Saturday School:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/rh91

The second question under General/Older Card Questions. Seems that you can't animate Akroma with Animate Dead.

[tivadar]

Actually, the card rules text under gatherer (I looked at Essential Magic):

When Animate Dead comes into play, if it's in play, it becomes an Aura with enchant creature. Put target creature card from a graveyard into play under your control and attach Animate Dead to it.
Enchanted creature gets -1/-0.
When Animate Dead leaves play, destroy enchanted creature. It can't be regenerated.

Different from the original wording that I showed. It may seem subtle, but the wording I had never stated that you attached Animate Dead to the creature, merely that the creature comes into play with Animate Dead attached to it. Perhaps this is the difference if the card ruling has recently changed? If so, it would seem under the new ruling that the trick should work, but that it should fail under the old ruling. Is this correct?

[Watcher487]

See here is the bigger problem that I have. Local Enchantments were made about a year ago. (Check Animate Dead Errata)

Attach in the Glossary of the Core Rules hasn't changed since that change but I haven't heard of Rule 212.4k til now. And considering that this little combo wasn't in Orlove's Reanimator deck I'm a little bit on the shaky side about if this was in the correct intention to begin with.

I would love to have Crystal Vein still open so I can actually check to see when both the Rule and the Errata on Animate Dead happened but whatever.

[herbig]

I was almost positive Akroma + Animate Dead wouldn't work, but I was shown this:

http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0605b&L=dcijudge-l&D=1&F=&S=&P=2680

Its very recent, May 2006. I'm not sure if this changed with the Aura rules or if it worked like that all along.

[Tacosnape]

This is directly from Chris Richter, Level 3 Judge, on Starcitygames. He says that Akroma's in play, and Animate Dead stays in play as an enchantment, since the attach fails. I wrote the email from the perspective of whoever started the thread.

>>>On Aug 29, 2006, at 5:39 PM, Leif Whittaker wrote:

>>We need your help once again!

>>We're in the midst of a major war over whether or not
>>based on the rules of Auras you can get an Akroma into
>>play and keep it there with Animate Dead. I vote you
>>can't, and am therefore on side B, but I can't
>>sufficiently explain why, and recently a judge ruled
>>at a tournament that you, in fact, can.


The judge is correct.


>>Side A, and the judge, argue this:
>>-Animate Dead comes into play.
>>-Animate Dead's trigger goes on to the stack,
>>targeting Akroma, Angel of Wrath in the graveyard.
>>-Animate Dead's trigger resolves. Akroma, Angel of
>>Wrath comes into play, but Animate Dead can't attach
>>to it. Therefore the end result is Animate Dead is in
>>play as an enchantment and Akroma, Angel of Wrath is
>>in play, alive, as a 6/6.

This is correct.


>>Side B is arguing this:
>>-Animate Dead comes into play.
>>-Animate Dead's trigger goes on to the stack,
>>targeting Akroma, Angel of Wrath in the graveyard.
>>-Animate Dead's trigger resolves. Akroma, Angel of
>>Wrath, comes into play with Animate Dead attached to
>>it.
>>State-based effects are checked, causing Animate
>>Dead to fall off of Akroma, which causes Animate
>>Dead's leaves play trigger to destroy it.

this last step does not happen. Akroma has protection from black and can not have a black enchantment attached to her at all.

>>What actually happens here, from beginning to end, in
>>complete and exact detail, so I actually know the
>>answer and can explain it to everyone?

You pretty much described it in the first example.

-Chris

------------------
Christopher Richter
aka kriz_riktr
DCI Level III Judge
Ask the Judge - Starcitygames.com
Moderator MTGNews.com

So there you have it. Due to the craziest glitch ever, Animate Dead gets Akroma, at full-size.

[midnightAce]

If this is true, then by the same token of logic, Animate Dead can can get Spirit of the Night, Pristine Angel, Iridescent Angel, and even nab those Mystic Enforcers from Threshold decks. That's very interesting.

[Lego]

>>Side A, and the judge, argue this:
>>-Animate Dead comes into play.
>>-Animate Dead's trigger goes on to the stack,
>>targeting Akroma, Angel of Wrath in the graveyard.
>>-Animate Dead's trigger resolves. Akroma, Angel of
>>Wrath comes into play, but Animate Dead can't attach
>>to it. Therefore the end result is Animate Dead is in
>>play as an enchantment and Akroma, Angel of Wrath is
>>in play, alive, as a 6/6.

This is not really the end result yet though. Since Animate Dead is in play as an Aura enchanting nothing, SBEs put it into the graveyard. The final end result is Akroma in play, Animate Dead in the yard.

I'm really glad this works, because otherwise my little jaunt to the card shop yesterday would have been for naught :wink:

[quicksilver]

When Animate Dead comes into play, if it's in play, it becomes an Aura with enchant creature. Put target creature card from a graveyard into play under your control and attach Animate Dead to it.
Enchanted creature gets -1/-0.
When Animate Dead leaves play, destroy enchanted creature. It can't be regenerated.

Animate dead turns into an aura. It then fails to attach itself to akroma. Then as a state-based effect it is put into the graveyard because that is what happens to auras when they are not attached to anything. I'm sure Chris was not saying that it happened this way, since it was a faily irelevant point and he was agreeing that akroma stayed in play. There is nothing that says that once it turns into an aura, that if it can't attach it goes back to being a non-aura. There is also nothing in the rules that says an enchantment cannot become an aura if that aura cannot attach to anything.

[Tacosnape]

I'll update in this forum, too. Yes, the above is incorrect. The end result is that the attach never happens, but Animate Dead does become an Aura. Chris Richter emailed me back and confirmed this.

So yes, once and for all, it's Akroma in play, Animate in the graveyard as the end result.

And yes, Animate Dead DOES grab Spirit of the Night (cackle). I shall forever refer to any Reanimator deck running Animate/Dance/Necro and Akroma/Spirit as Glitch Reanimator.

[AngryTroll]

Well, it is nice to have a decisive answer to this now...but the question is, how do I get this to work playing against my (non-judge) friends? Sigh.

As for the Batcave, I think I will have to show up to the tournament early, talk to the TO, and show him the thread before the tournament starts so this does not become an issue during a match.

[Bardo]

Well, it is nice to have a decisive answer to this now...but the question is, how do I get this to work playing against my (non-judge) friends? Sigh.

Have tacosnape send you Chris Richter's email and take it with you wherever you play Reanimator. :)

[Tacosnape]

Have tacosnape send you Chris Richter's email and take it with you wherever you play Reanimator. :)

Seriously, I'll be glad to send it to anyone who wants it. Just AIM or PM me with your email address.

[Son_Gozen]

it works with every protection black creature the only combo that doesn´t work is Dance of the Dead + Pristine Angel. The Angel comes into play tapped and has no protection in your next upkeep you have to pay the cost and if you do the angel gets protection from all colors and artifacts and it gets destroyed... but you can reanimate all pro: black creatures with the old animators it works