[Deck] B/g Suicide

[nitewolf9]

Well, I was going to post this list in the Red Death forum, but I really didn't wana clutter that thread since it isn't the same deck (although very very similar). I made this just because I had 4 berserks pretty much, and wanted them to see some play. I must say, I am surprised with the results. Let me first post my list:

(edit: demon bad, reaver good...list updated, pretty much to what I have found to be the optimum build)

"Green Death":

16 suicide spell suite:
4x dark ritual
4x duress
4x hymn to tourach
4x sinkhole

7 green goodies:
4x berserk
3x rancor

16 creatures:
4x phyrexian negator
4x nantuko shade
4x hypnotic specter
2x flesh reaver (see below)
2x drinker of sorrow (I favor a 2/2 split between drinker and reaver, which helps negate their drawbacks. They pretty much serve the same purpose as being your "filler fat" for extra berserk/rancor targets outside of negator. They are both undercosted and amazing with trample. Ending games quickly is exactly what they do.)

21 land:
4x wasteland
4x bayou
3x polluted delta
3x bloodstained mire
7x swamp

SB:
4x pernicious deed (one of the best cards in legacy, and very underused. Helps you out in a lot of bad matchups, plus hoses some decks completely...like affinity for example)
4x infest (needed for goblins)
4x dystopia (probably still your best bet against thresh, while devastating angel/zilla/random stompy)
3x withered wretch (debatable slot, but I think the strength against reanimator and iggy is worth including him in the board...plus he's an extra target for rancor)

Now to explain a few things. This deck runs the standard suicide black disruption package, with the same goal: disrupt your opponent and win as quickly as possible. Berserk and rancor help do exactly that. In order to fully capitalize on berserk however (and make it worth trying over something like lightning bolt in a red splash), you need creatures with high power (over 3 or so), which is why I included the flesh reavers and drinkers over something like rotting giant. It sure is nice to have a nantuko shade with trample as well, and rancor is a nice extra permanent that keeps coming back when you sac it to your negators and drinkers (plus drinker of sorrow is another great berserk target...berserk him, then sac him to himself after he deals his damage).

I haven't gotten a chance to test it very thoroughly yet, but I'll try to get a matchup analysis when I can. For the games I have played (thresh and gobs mostly, some against solidarity, but sui black already destroys that matchup) it's been doing quite well.

Goblins can still be a bit rough, but it seems that with infest AND deed coming in from the board, it's alot more manageable. Pre-board it's a bit worse than red death (although you can kill them just as quickly as they can kill you...berserk and you're uber fat really gives them some rough decisions to make), but with deed coming in it gets a whole lot better after board. All your creatures getting trample with berserk/rancor is also a huge issue for them.

It's a fun twist on suicide, and I think if you have the cards to try it out, you should. Being able to run 4 berserks is pretty awesome, and the card just fits so well with suicide's goals (as does rancor).

My final decision on rancor was to leave it in over giant growths. Rancor just has way too much synergy with drinker and negator, plus it gives flesh reaver (and drinker) trample...something they really really want to have.

[quicksilver]

You should name this deck green death.

Also, first turn bayou, dark rit, negator.
Second turn, beserk, beserk!!

[nitewolf9]

Haha, yes, things like that ^ are quite hilarious and definitly possible, which in my mind is reason enough to play it.

And sure, let's stick to consistency and call it Green Death, even though there is no E.A.Poe reference.

[Elfrago]

IMHO you need more creatures with CC 1-2 or more mana accellerators, you cant always hope to have the drak ritual in your opening hand and without it your only 1 CC spell is duress. And not playing someting in the fist turn is bad.

I also think that Spiritmonger does not fit in this deck. As you said it has a high casting cost and I would not rate it too high in legacy, because of the hign number of Swords to Plowshares in the format, wich kill the guy easily.

[nitewolf9]

I agree that spiritmonger would not be the correct choice, but I mean, in traditional suicide, how many first turn plays are there without ritual? Usually only duress. And even in red death, the burn is usually used as removal or to finish your opponent off, so I'm not sure what I'd put in here as a 1cc spell or if it's even necessary...

edit: Maybe the 3x rotting giant and 1x wretched anurid would be better over grinning demon...it's another one of those cards that I like to play with, but yeah, probably not optimal (even though with berserk or rancor the demon can get pretty crazy)

[Elfrago]

I agree that spiritmonger would not be the correct choice, but I mean, in traditional suicide, how many first turn plays are there without ritual? Usually only duress. And even in red death, the burn is usually used as removal or to finish your opponent off, so I'm not sure what I'd put in here as a 1cc spell or if it's even necessary...

edit: Maybe the 3x rotting giant and 1x wretched anurid would be better over grinning demon...it's another one of those cards that I like to play with, but yeah, probably not optimal (even though with berserk or rancor the demon can get pretty crazy)

Wrong, suicide usually uses Sarcomancy and/or Carnophage.

The Demon is really a big badass but he as a rather high CC for a suicide, maybe you can cut 1 or 2 of them.

[nitewolf9]

Wrong, suicide usually uses Sarcomancy and/or Carnophage.

The Demon is really a big badass but he as a rather high CC for a suicide, maybe you can cut 1 or 2 of them.

I don't think sarcomancy and/or carnophage belong in any suicide deck, for the simple reason that they aren't a significant clock at all (and they die to every creature in combat pretty much). This deck wants to win quickly and those cards don't really help you do that, and I don't think they should be considered to be real threats in this format.

Maybe cutting 2 demons for rotting giant would work, it'd at least be interesting to try (but yeah, I agree, it's either run something like 2 demons or don't run them, just too expensive to want to have in multiples).

[Elfrago]

I don't think sarcomancy and/or carnophage belong in any suicide deck, for the simple reason that they aren't a significant clock at all (and they die to every creature in combat pretty much). This deck wants to win quickly and those cards don't really help you do that, and I don't think they should be considered to be real threats in this format.

Maybe cutting 2 demons for rotting giant would work, it'd at least be interesting to try (but yeah, I agree, it's either run something like 2 demons or don't run them, just too expensive to want to have in multiples).


IMHO a deck wich wants to win quickly NEEDS a 1 first turn drop, but if you dont like them you can try using more accelerators like Chrome Mox , Ancient Tomb Or City of Traitors.

[quicksilver]

It kinds sucks that a good amount of your one drops, rancor and beserk, cannot be played first turn.

[deadlock]

I don't think sarcomancy and/or carnophage belong in any suicide deck, for the simple reason that they aren't a significant clock at all (and they die to every creature in combat pretty much). This deck wants to win quickly and those cards don't really help you do that, and I don't think they should be considered to be real threats in this format.

Dont forget that sarcomancy has a good synergy with negator.

I am also missing Deed in your list as a reset button if you get swarmed.
Therapy might be better than Duress or in addition as a 2-3 of, to have more first turn plays.

Just some ideas..

[legacyplayer0]

Why no 4th Rancor? It seems to be half the reason you're splashing green. Also, is sinkhole really worth playing when you could play more discard or removal instead? It seems that StP and creatures that can block Negator are the biggest threats to your deck, and playing stone ra-I mean sinkhole doesn't seem to be solving any of those problems.

[Kundalini]

I run a list very similar to yours, but with no demons (too high cc) and no nantuko shade. I run a 4th rancor, plus

4x dark confidant
4x sarcomancy

Dark confidant seems a nice draw engine, rancor/berserk target and can be easily sacrificed to negator or berserk if he is killing you.
Sarcomancy has good sinergy with negator and other zombies in your deck.

Also, evaluate the inclusion of umezawa's jitte / pernicious deed / creature removal for a more controllish route.

[xsockmonkeyx]

16 creatures:
4x phyrexian negator
4x nantuko shade
4x hypnotic specter
2x grinning demon
2x rotting giant

21 land:


vs.


Red Death



//Creatures
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Rotting Giant
1 Wretched Anurid





I am of the opinion that Anwar's red death creature list better serves your needs than the current list of creatures for B/G sui. I would maybe go 2/2 arurid/giant as lightning bolt/chain lightning have been subbed for creature enhancers that wont be in the graveyard pre-attack for your giant to eat.

Have you tried Giant Growth (in addition to rancor) out in this deck? Negator, Berserk, Berserk is awesome but Negator, Giant Growth, Berserk aint bad either.

My 2 Cents:

suicide spell suite:
4x dark ritual
4x duress
4x hymn to tourach


green goodies:
4x berserk
4x rancor
3x Giant Growth


16 creatures:
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
2 Rotting Giant
2 Wretched Anurid

land:
4x wasteland
4x bayou
4x polluted delta
3x bloodstained mire
6x swamp

[Pinder]

This might not really fit in the deck due to its high CC, but I figured I'd mention Greater Harvester. I do this because the Harvester has some pretty savage synergy with rancor. Upkeep, sac rancor, play rancor, swing in, trample over, they sac two permanents. It certainly has a bunch going for it in the disruption department. It might be too slow though (and if you decide to run Confidant, he's waaaay to expensive).

[laststepdown]

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I REALLY like Giant Growth in this. It's the equivilant to Bolt in the right situation, plus, it saves creatures from geese and bears. I'm convinced Pernicious Deed should at least be in sideboard-only because all of your permanents are cheap. However, you can get Rancor back. I'm all for the mana accell, but it's gotta be free. Lotus Petal or Chrome Mox seem like the right choice, as they both can sac to Negator if need be. I'm not saying to change your list-I just don't know what to put in for the other 3 Berserks that I don't own :).

[Bane of the Living]

Any deck with a low curve that produces 1B on turn two should be playing Dark Confidant. I dont really feel the need to argue it, look at Vintage because of him. Its like not playing Meddling Mage when its in your colors. Just dont get caught doing it.

[laststepdown]

I could see it-but over what? Nantuko Shade is the only thing I could possibly see coming out for it, as Giant and Anurid will always be 3/3's, Hyppies are recurring discard, and Negator is a turn 2 win.

[AnwarA101]

Any deck with a low curve that produces 1B on turn two should be playing Dark Confidant. I dont really feel the need to argue it, look at Vintage because of him. Its like not playing Meddling Mage when its in your colors. Just dont get caught doing it.

I was just wondering how often a deck playing Dark Confidant has T8 in the last few months? I would guess not very much at all. Throwing around these requirements like you need to play Dark Confidant is just a substitute for sound reasoning. This deck is definitely playing an aggressive game and Dark Confidant maybe many things but he sure isn't aggressive. He just doesn't belong here, because he doesn't fit the strategy.

I found the name of Green Death kind of amusing and interesting as well. I also prefer Giant Growth instead of Rancor. Giant Growth allows you to save creatures in combat as well as use it when you opponent can't kill your creature in response to a Rancor. Losing the 2 for 1 off of Rancor can be crushing.

[nitewolf9]

I do like giant growth over rancor now that I think of it,
especially because of the fact that it can essentially be
like a lightning bolt that hits mongoose (and the potential
to be 2 for 1'd with rancor, as Anwar stated).

As far as the creature base goes, red death's is probably
going to be the best (considering it has been refined and
tweaked over a good period of time and this list essentially
has the same goals). Pernicious deed probably does belong in
the board, so I put 3 in there. I also included 2 diabolic
edicts in the side as well...what do you guys think about
that? I was thinking of putting naturalize in that slot, but
pernicious deed takes care of most things that naturalize
would be brought in against, and reanimator seems to have
made a comeback. Might be good to have some additional outs
against them (even if it's only 2 cards).

Here is my updated list to reflect these changes (and what I am currently testing):

Creatures (16)
4x nantuko shade
4x hypnotic specter
4x phyrexian negator
3x rotting giant
1x wretched anurid

spells (24):
4x dark ritual
4x sinkhole
4x hymn to tourach
4x duress
3x Giant Growth
4x Berserk

Land (21):
4x wasteland
3x polluted delta
3x bloodstained mire
4x bayou
7x swamp

Sideboard:
3x pernicious deed
4x dystopia
4x engineered plague
2x darkblast
2x diabolic edict

[Tacosnape]

As long as we're giving absurdly undercosted mega-fatties trample, why not try Tempting Wurm in here, sideboard if not main?

[quicksilver]

As long as we're giving absurdly undercosted mega-fatties trample, why not try Tempting Wurm in here, sideboard if not main?

Tempting wurm seems terrible. It has horrible synergy with your game plan. For one it completly negates any temp your land destruction would give you. It also makes discard far more inferior since it lets them put all of their stuff into play already. Nothing like giving solidarity the turn 2 win.

[nitewolf9]

I think temping wurm is way too dangerous in most matchups (goblins dropping a horde and alpha striking, solidarity dropping all their land and being able to go off turns earlier, reanimator is obviously bad, list goes on...).

Might be good in the thresh matchup, but I don't see it being really necessary there either. We have dystopia, and I would rather run tormod's crypts (which are good in more than just the thresh match) than the wurm.

Interesting idea, but I don't think it would be a good choice. I am looking for what else green has to offer though (creaturewise), and I'm sure there has to be something to perhaps go in giant/anurid's slot (perhaps run rouge elephant as a one of over wretched anurid?).

[nitewolf9]

What do you guys think of running either Quirion Dryad or Vinelasher Kudzu in the giant/anurid's spots?

Vinelasher could be real good with the fetches, and dryad could be real good with all the black disruption spells (and dark ritual).

[nupert]

Have you tested Sheltering Ancient? I think it's good against a lot of Decks (sure, sometimes it just sucks).

[nitewolf9]

Maybe if I had some way of abusing the ancient or negating his drawback he would be playable, but he is dead against solidarity/burn, and pretty much sucks against almost everything else that runs creatures. I think it would be a bad idea to run him.

[nitewolf9]

In Anwar's Red Death thread, flesh reaver has come to a discussion as to whether or not he is worth including. I was enlightened via PM on how amazing he can be in this build of suicide, namely because of berserk/rancor's ability to give trample (no more chump blocking of flesh reaver by a weenie, making you take 4 and them take none).

As I'm thinking right now, I would probably take out 2 rotting giant and 1 wretched anurid for 3 flesh reaver, leaving in 1 rotting giant to round out the creatures (don't think I'd want to run 4 reavers).

So, on that note, the new decklist would be something like this (rancor back in, growth out):

Creatures (16)
4x nantuko shade
4x hypnotic specter
4x phyrexian negator
3x flesh reaver
1x rotting giant

spells (24):
4x dark ritual
4x sinkhole
4x hymn to tourach
4x duress
3x Rancor
4x Berserk

Land (21):
4x wasteland
3x polluted delta
3x bloodstained mire
4x bayou
7x swamp

Sideboard:
3x pernicious deed
4x dystopia
4x infest (now that our creatures survive it, plague is subpar I think)
1x darkblast
3x diabolic edict

[laststepdown]

Against Threshold, Dystopia < Choke. Dystopia will cost you life, mana, and your Rancors. Choke wins the game.

[nitewolf9]

Against Threshold, Dystopia < Choke. Dystopia will cost you life, mana, and your Rancors. Choke wins the game.

That's true, I wasn't even thinking of the interaction with rancor. I suppose choke would be pretty devastating, along with deed.

[nitewolf9]

I found a few creatures that might be worth considering in this deck:

albino troll, argothian wurm, and hidden herd.

The one that sparks my interest is hidden herd. With pretty much 100% of decks running fetch lands (even monocolored decks run them now), it's a 3/3 for one green mana. Plus, with sinkhole, if it forces them to hold back a land drop, they can really be screwed.

Thoughts?

[AnwarA101]

Against Threshold, Dystopia < Choke. Dystopia will cost you life, mana, and your Rancors. Choke wins the game.

I'm not sure Choke wins you the game. This is assuming that they don't already have creatures in play. If they play a basic Forest then they probably have a way to play their Mongooses and Werebear with either another land or even with Daze to bounce a land. It is an interesting way to increase the LD strategy, but I still think Dystopia needs to be considered. It hits white and green permanents. I can't think of any black card that does that.

Are you playing Rancor or Giant Growth? I thought there were no green permanents.

[FakeSpam]

...I still think Dystopia needs to be considered. It hits white and green permanents. I can't think of any black card that does that.

Dystopia is typically ran because black has no way of dealing with enchantments. It just so happens that all the good ones are white. With green added to the deck, you have much better ways to handle that stuff.

Like, say, Naturalize.

Or Deed. ~ Nightmare

[xsockmonkeyx]

Are you playing Rancor or Giant Growth? I thought there were no green permanents.

In this deck Giant Growth > Rancor.

[Phantom]

Dystopia is typically ran because black has no way of dealing with enchantments. It just so happens that all the good ones are white. With green added to the deck, you have much better ways to handle that stuff.

Like, say, Naturalize.

Or Deed. ~ Nightmare

I gotta say, I agree with Anwar. Dystopia is a great sideboard card against Thresh and Angel Stompy. For 1 life it kills 2 G/W permanents, or 3 of 3 life. That's great. And putting aside the Giant Growth vs. Rancor debate, who cares if you kill your Rancor every turn? It bounces back to your hand, you replay it. Big deal.

[laststepdown]

The big deal is it's a waste of mana-that you could be using to kill things, cast Berserk, or cast a fatty, when Choke would be less of a disadvantage to you in terms of CMC-if you're really worried about the Thresh matchup, Dystopia may be the better option-I'd just assume Choke would be a nail in the coffin with the LD/discard package currently ran in the deck. While not as good against Solidarity as, say, Gaea's Blessing, I think it's worth trying out. Regardless, Nightmare is right. Pernicious Deed is 4-of. No matter what. It's the best board sweeper in our colors. Period. Deed for 2 kills all of Thresh's threats, and not our Negators.

However.
I really want to add Putrefy, even though Edict is the better, cheaper choice(stupid new flashy card face...gets me every time).

When I'm happy with my current list, I'll let you all tear apart mine. It's only fair.

[Happy Gilmore]

The lack of removal kind of makes me nervous. Is it possible to fit Vendeta in the deck somewhere? The deck looks like a blast to play though. Something about double berzerking a Negator on turn 2 give me a warm feeling inside. Oh, and why isn't Flesh Reaver in there? Sure, he does alot of damage to you, but he normally kills your opponents first anyway.

Killing your opponent with death on the stack is the nut high in suicide.

GG

[Finn]

I tried something like this for a while. I didn't develop it far, but I ran Drinker of Sorrow. It is stupid good with Rancor.

[nitewolf9]

My updated list runs 2 flesh reavers and 2 hidden herd in the giant/anurid creature spots.

I'm still not quite sold as to giant growth being better than rancor in this deck. The ability to give flesh reaver/nantuko shade/whatever trample is pretty good (especially to keep flesh reaver from being chump blocked). I'm still trying them both out though.

As far as removal goes, I haven't really found many times where I need it (the pump spells sort of act like removal). This deck forces people to deal with your threats, not the other way around. Plus we have 3-4 deed in the board to fit that bill.

I'm not sure if I even need dedicated thresh hate other than deed in the board. I'm thinking of running 4 deed, and maybe 3 tormod's crypt to deal with a wider variety of decks.

Btw, hidden herd is good.

[laststepdown]

I tried something like this for a while. I didn't develop it far, but I ran Drinker of Sorrow. It is stupid good with Rancor.

Holy Crap. Negators 5 and 6? Ok, sign me up. That might switch me back to Rancor.

Flesh Reaver is very tempting.

Death on the stack FTW. Mmmmmm.

[throst54]

Would elvish spirit guide have a place here? It'll prevent you from getting first turn DR>Negator Dazed, acts as subpar Dark rituals 5-8, and can setup yourself up to beserk your creatures unexpectedly.

Also, has regrowth been considered? Other than dark ritual and possibly duress, this deck could probably abuse it well.

[nitewolf9]

In a deck with no draw, elvish spirit guide just eats up spots for relevant threats. Regrowth might be good, but I just don't know what it would replace.