Battle of the Sets!

[Alfred]

I apologize for linking outside of the site, but I thought that people might be interested in the Tournament that I'm running over on MTGSalvation which is essentially a battle royale between every set ever printed! Here's a link to the first part, and I'll link to the other part tomorrow:

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/article/419/battle-of-the-sets-viii-introduction-pt-1/

http://mtgsalvation.com/article/422/battle-of-the-sets-viii-introduction-pt-2

[Nightmare]

I'm dissapointed that you didn't go broken with Urza's Legacy. Tinker, Welder, Grim Monolith, and Memory Jar are all in that set. You can set your opponent up for a death knell just by recycling Memory jar over and over. Maybe the deck you built is better, but I think highlighting the more "name" cards in the set would be more fun.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Jesus, why does everyone feel the need to insult Fallen Empires? The set only had 100 cards. To have had seven or eight highly played tournament cards, a number of which still see play today, it's doing pretty well. Collectors just hate the set because everything was common or uncommon so they couldn't make a killing off of it.

And christ, it's your own fault it loses if you're running Thrull Retainer over Breeding Pit or Elvish Lyre.

[Nightmare]

And christ, it's your own fault it loses if you're running Thrull Retainer over Breeding Pit or Elvish Lyre.Or fucking Night Soil. That card is amazing.

[Eldariel]

Mmm, I too would've loved to see some Tinker/Jar in Legacy, and some sort of Rector/Bargain in Destiny. Oh well... And since someone is going to say it anyways, no Thunder Bluff-variant from Homelands?

[Evil Roopey]

Mmm, I too would've loved to see some Tinker/Jar in Legacy, and some sort of Rector/Bargain in Destiny. Oh well... And since someone is going to say it anyways, no Thunder Bluff-variant from Homelands?

Ironically Thunderbluff has tobe the best deck that Homelands can actually make, right?

[Alfred]

Ironically Thunderbluff has tobe the best deck that Homelands can actually make, right?

It was tried and run for the first 5 tournaments, and it managed to suck a lot of balls. The WG deck actually won the play-in division in BotS 6, and I believe, having tried and playtested both decks, WG is almost definately the best.


I'm dissapointed that you didn't go broken with Urza's Legacy. Tinker, Welder, Grim Monolith, and Memory Jar are all in that set. You can set your opponent up for a death knell just by recycling Memory jar over and over. Maybe the deck you built is better, but I think highlighting the more "name" cards in the set would be more fun.

Memory Jar and Grim Monolith are pretty much the only good artifacts in the set, unlike Urza's Saga, which has a lot to abuse. You tinker or weld a Memory Jar, but then what?


some sort of Rector/Bargain in Destiny.

I actually made a WR bargain deck which used Reckless Abandon and Burn to kill the Rector, which would then fetch a Bargain and start uncorking retarded Scents of Cinder to kill an opponent. It sounds cool, but it wasn't very good :(


Jesus, why does everyone feel the need to insult Fallen Empires? The set only had 100 cards. To have had seven or eight highly played tournament cards, a number of which still see play today, it's doing pretty well. Collectors just hate the set because everything was common or uncommon so they couldn't make a killing off of it.

And christ, it's your own fault it loses if you're running Thrull Retainer over Breeding Pit or Elvish Lyre.

Hey, I love the set personally. The very first pack I cracked was a FE pack, and it pretty much taught me how to play. IMO, I think Thrull Retainer is better than both those cards :/ You're also right about it's quality to set size ratio, which isn't as bad as like The Dark, but isn't even CLOSE to Arabian Nights, which probably has the best ratio of good cards to bad ones out of any set.


Or fucking Night Soil. That card is amazing.

Right you are! Actually, a monogreen deck with Thallids and Night Soil is being considered as a replacement for the monoblack list. The only two roadblocks are Hymn to Tourach and Order of the Ebon Hand, which are both sweet cards, and can sometimes just win a game singlehandedly.

[Michael Keller]

There's actually an early Inquest magazine I own that has every set versus each other. Of course, the battle stops at Mirage...

I believe Antiquities and Alliances were neck and neck...

[Alfred]

There's actually an early Inquest magazine I own that has every set versus each other. Of course, the battle stops at Mirage...

I believe Antiquities and Alliances were neck and neck...

Yeah, I hear that all the decks were complete balls though. Weirdly enough, the person who ran this tournament before me was named Legend, and he was the one who told me that. I'd actually like to see the lists that were run in that mag, so if you have the time and patience, let's see them!

[Nightmare]

Memory Jar and Grim Monolith are pretty much the only good artifacts in the set, unlike Urza's Saga, which has a lot to abuse. You tinker or weld a Memory Jar, but then what?You keep doing it. Milling your opponent for 7 every turn is good. Kinda.


Right you are! Actually, a monogreen deck with Thallids and Night Soil is being considered as a replacement for the monoblack list. The only two roadblocks are Hymn to Tourach and Order of the Ebon Hand, which are both sweet cards, and can sometimes just win a game singlehandedly.Don't go monogreen. Go G/W weenie, with Icatian Javelineers and stuff. So much better.

[Alfred]

You keep doing it. Milling your opponent for 7 every turn is good. Kinda.

Well, if you're relying on Welder to kep welding it in, you need artifacts to sac. Basically, there are none worth noting after Monolith. And "milling" for 7 each turn seems a lot worse when an opponent has burn in their deck. Also, keeping a Welder in play while letting them draw 7 cards each turn seems pretty optimistic.


Don't go monogreen. Go G/W weenie, with Icatian Javelineers and stuff. So much better.

It's a little late to change the list right now, but I'd be happy to play a few games with the decklist you were thinking of. FE would become the third shitty deck to go from it's original configuration to a GW weenie deck after The Dark changed from mono red, and Homelands changed from Thunderbluff.

I'm still pretty confident that the monoblack is the best, but we'll see.

[xsockmonkeyx]

I think the Ice Age deck would be better served as mono-black and with a reasonable number of zuran orbs :)

3 Foul Familiar
2 Dance of the Dead
2 Abyssal Spector
3 Demonic Consultation
4 Icequake
4 Knight of Stromgald
4 Dark Banishing
4 Necropotence
2 Zuran Orb
4 Dark Ritual
4 Withering Wisps
3 Soul Burn
21 Snow-Covered Swamp

[Alfred]

I think the Ice Age deck would be better served as mono-black.

3 Foul Familiar
2 Dance of the Dead
2 Abyssal Spector
3 Demonic Consultation
4 Icequake
4 Knight of Stromgald
4 Dark Banishing
4 Necropotence
2 Zuran Orb
4 Dark Ritual
4 Withering Wisps
3 Soul Burn
21 Snow-Covered Swamp


That deck is bad. :(


with a reasonable number of zuran orbs :)

The reason there are 4 Zuran Orbs is because you want to see them before you Jokulhaups, as it allows you to float mana then sac all your lands, and then it is destroyed. It is not uncommon for Ice Age to want to Jokulhaups multiple times during a game, as it both resets the board as well as Ice Age's life total, so you will probably want those extra Orbs. It's a pretty good deck, and probably has as good or a better chance than many teir 4 decks of upsetting a top seeded deck.

[Machinus]

Alfred, thank you for the link! I always love reading your BOTS coverage.

[kirdape3]

Ed Paltzik (who Legend actually is) was doing this for aeons and aeons. Last I knew, Torment and Antiquities were slugging it out in the finals about the time of Kamigawa block.

[Alfred]

I just added the second part of the introduction, so you want to check that out too, you can.

EDIT: Also, spot the shout out to IBA :wub:

[Di]

There's actually an early Inquest magazine I own that has every set versus each other. Of course, the battle stops at Mirage...

I believe Antiquities and Alliances were neck and neck...

I also have an old Inquest with this stuff in it, except it goes all the way up to I believe Nemesis.

Incidentally, this is also the issue that Inquest interviewed Joe Weber.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Give this a spin for Ice Age. It should be more competitive than the other ideas you're trying.


// Lands
12 [ST] Island (3)
5 [TE] Plains (4)
4 [OV] Adarkar Wastes

// Creatures
2 [IA] Blinking Spirit
2 [IA] Zuran Spellcaster

// Spells
2 [IA] Vexing Arcanix
3 [IA] Portent
1 [IA] Pentagram of the Ages
4 [IA] Urza's Bauble
3 [IA] Power Sink
3 [IA] Pit Trap
3 [IA] Icy Manipulator
2 [IA] Disenchant
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [IA] Counterspell
4 [IA] Brainstorm
2 [IA] Ray of Command

Also, an alternative suggestion for Legions out of boredom, and because I always loved Vile Deacon;

// Lands
10 [TE] Plains (4)
14 [ON] Swamp (1)

// Creatures
4 [LE] Starlight Invoker
1 [LE] Scion of Darkness
4 [LE] Planar Guide
3 [LE] Celestial Gatekeeper
4 [LE] Dark Supplicant
4 [LE] Graveborn Muse
4 [LE] Vile Deacon
4 [LE] Whipgrass Entangler
4 [LE] Glowrider
4 [LE] Withered Wretch

[Ridiculous Hat]

Your coldsnap deck is missing 4 coldsteel hearts. -1 owl -1 swamp -1 commandeer -1 controvert or somesuch. You could also probably axe a Whispers or a Taskmage or a Specter-- but Heart makes that deck soooooo much better.

[Alfred]

Your coldsnap deck is missing 4 coldsteel hearts. -1 owl -1 swamp -1 commandeer -1 controvert or somesuch. You could also probably axe a Whispers or a Taskmage or a Specter-- but Heart makes that deck soooooo much better.

I was thinking about that, but I was a little apprehensive, because it interferes with turn 2 countermagic like Martyr of Frost and Rune Snag. You also can't do the Izzetron thing where you cast it turn 3 and have countermagic up, you basically have to wait until turn 4 to be able to leave countermagic up. The guy I'm running this with, Nazdakka suggested it, but I sort of poo-poo'd it. MAybe I can test it out for the next tournament, and you may very well be right. Just PM me, and we gave give it a test.


Give this a spin for Ice Age. It should be more competitive than the other ideas you're trying.


// Lands
12 [ST] Island (3)
5 [TE] Plains (4)
4 [OV] Adarkar Wastes

// Creatures
2 [IA] Blinking Spirit
2 [IA] Zuran Spellcaster

// Spells
2 [IA] Vexing Arcanix
3 [IA] Portent
1 [IA] Pentagram of the Ages
4 [IA] Urza's Bauble
3 [IA] Power Sink
3 [IA] Pit Trap
3 [IA] Icy Manipulator
2 [IA] Disenchant
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [IA] Counterspell
4 [IA] Brainstorm
2 [IA] Ray of Command

This looks a lot like my "Turbo Xerox" deck that I made. Here is what it looks like:

4 IA Brainstorm
4 IA Clairvoyance
4 IA Counterspell
2 IA Force Void
4 IA Power Sink
4 IA Portent
4 IA Word of Undoing
3 IA Ray of Command
4 IA Urza's Bauble
3 IA Illusionary Forces
4 U Swords to Plowshares
2 4E Disenchant
4 7E Adarkar Wastes
1 OD Plains
13 RAV Island

Illusionary Forces is way, way better than Blinking Spirit against the metagame decks I played, because it ends the game much faster. I think people aren't giving the current Ice Age deck a chance. One reason for it's lack of success is that has been paired randomly against a very poor matchup for the past two tournaments, Onslaught, which narrowly beat Ice Age the first time the decks played. It also hasn't been running the same deck throughout 8 tournamants, it recently changed, and my precursor Legend and I agree that this is a very good version of the deck. I'll play a few games against you with it if you want, because perhaps I am making a mistake after all ;)

[Alfred]

As of right now, this isn't an update, but rather a plea for help to play some of the games for this tournament. My playing partner Nazdakka is a great help, but our scheduals and the fact that he lives in England make it difficult to play all of the games. I need someone who is an established, good magic player who is willing to learn the decks (it isn't really that hard) and play them for the purposes of running the tournament.

If you have an interest in this sort of thing, and enjoy Battle of the Sets itself, feel free to PM me.

[Alfred]

The Play-in part of Battle of the Sets has been completed. The lateness is a result of editing problems and a personal issue. I hope you enjoy it!

http://mtgsalvation.com/article/445/battle-of-the-sets-viii-play-in-results

[Alfred]

If any of you still care about this, THE REAL TOURNAMENT HAS BEGUN!!!!!

http://mtgsalvation.com/article/473/battle-of-the-sets-viii-groups-1-2

There is a deck creation competition too! So if any of you people think you have THE BALLS to try and make a deck for this competition, read it to find out!!!

[Negator131]

Why isn't Divert in the Odyssey deck? It *is* a tempo deck, and Divert counters removal and opposing counters pretty well.

[Eldariel]

Nice games, although I was surprised that only one of those MUs managed to be 3-2 when lots of them seemed rather even. I'm also surprised Ravnica decided to go with 2-colour deck as opposed to 3-colour Boros/Selesnya aggro, since it has some pretty damn awesome duals to work with, and BoP to boot.

But meh, hope someone comes up with something for Odyssey, things that would suit my personal fancy are Urza's Legacy (there's a Tinker-Memory Jar-deck there somewhere), Urza's Destiny (Rector-Bargain!) and Legends (I get a bit tingly considering the weird decks those weird cards can create (I mean, Eureka? There HAS to be a use for that card in the set)).

[Alfred]

Nice games, although I was surprised that only one of those MUs managed to be 3-2 when lots of them seemed rather even. I'm also surprised Ravnica decided to go with 2-colour deck as opposed to 3-colour Boros/Selesnya aggro, since it has some pretty damn awesome duals to work with, and BoP to boot.

That's what it ran with last time, and to tell you the truth, I may go back to it.


But meh, hope someone comes up with something for Odyssey, things that would suit my personal fancy are Urza's Legacy (there's a Tinker-Memory Jar-deck there somewhere), Urza's Destiny (Rector-Bargain!) and Legends (I get a bit tingly considering the weird decks those weird cards can create (I mean, Eureka? There HAS to be a use for that card in the set)).

The thing is, in Legacy, there are no good Artifacts other than Grim Monolith, and I've tried Rector/Bargain with Scent of Cinder and lots of red cards. I can't think of anything else that would work to tell you the truth, and Destiny is pretty good.

Eureka is something to think over... Thanks for that idea.

[Drkdstryer]

If any of you still care about this, THE REAL TOURNAMENT HAS BEGUN!!!!!

http://mtgsalvation.com/article/473/battle-of-the-sets-viii-groups-1-2

There is a deck creation competition too! So if any of you people think you have THE BALLS to try and make a deck for this competition, read it to find out!!!

If anyone still cares? I was wondering whee you had gone and taken BotS! I love BotS!

More importantly, it's only Odyssey that's up for re-designing, right? I'm thinking that CS might be better served with U/R Snow... Skred and Stalking Yeti are just that good.

[Alfred]

BotS is back!

http://mtgsalvation.com/582-bots8-group4-dcc.html

That's the end of the first round. There is a deck creation competition for Time Spiral, Planar Chaos and Future Sight. Everyone is welcome to create a deck for it and post it in the comment section.

[Eldariel]

Been waiting for this for a while now. One of my favourite tournaments to follow. I already expressed my frustration at the Saviors for not playing a Needle on Candelabra in G3, but of course the play was defensible (still, even without its ability Trike is a 4/4, something Saviors has trouble dealing with, so the Needle doesn't really prevent Antiquites from going bonkers all over Savior's face. A 4/4 per turn is too much for Saviors, so focusing on preventing them from entering the play seems to be the key). I just woulda so loved to see it eliminated. Oh well, there's always the next tournament.

[Cait_Sith]

I cannot find anything on Fallen Empires. That is my fave set and I would love to see what they are doing with it.

[Eldariel]

Fallen Empires is in the play-in division playing black stuff I recall, with Hymn being the only really good card in the deck :/ Feel free to improve upon it if you can.

[Alfred]

http://mtgsalvation.com/articles/writer.html#alfred

This is what has been covered so far. The play-in tournament is where Fallen Empires has been duking it out recently. Feel free to come up with a better decklist, because it's the first set that I ever managed to buy for magic!

[Cait_Sith]

http://mtgsalvation.com/articles/writer.html#alfred

This is what has been covered so far. The play-in tournament is where Fallen Empires has been duking it out recently. Feel free to come up with a better decklist, because it's the first set that I ever managed to buy for magic!

It is the first set I ever put any real resources into getting.

Mono White

// Lands
18 [TSP] Plains (2)
4 [FE] Ruins of Trokair

// Creatures
4 [FE] Farrel's Zealot (3)
3 [FE] Icatian Phalanx
4 [FE] Order of Leitbur (1)
4 [FE] Icatian Infantry (2)
4 [FE] Icatian Priest
4 [FE] Icatian Javelineers (1)

// Spells
4 [FE] Zelyon Sword
3 [FE] Icatian Town
4 [FE] Aeolipile
4 [FE] Conch Horn

Honestly I could make a mono blue deck that is better than that black deck.

Edit: So I did:

// Lands
23 [TE] Island (1)

// Creatures
3 [FE] Homarid Warrior (1)
4 [FE] River Merfolk
4 [FE] Homarid (1)
4 [FE] Vodalian Soldiers (4)
3 [FE] Vodalian Mage (1)

// Spells
3 [FE] Aeolipile
4 [FE] Conch Horn
3 [FE] Homarid Spawning Bed
2 [FE] Tidal Influence
4 [FE] Tidal Flats (2)
3 [FE] Merseine (2)

[Alfred]

It is the first set I ever put any real resources into getting.

Mono White

// Lands
18 [TSP] Plains (2)
4 [FE] Ruins of Trokair

// Creatures
4 [FE] Farrel's Zealot (3)
3 [FE] Icatian Phalanx
4 [FE] Order of Leitbur (1)
4 [FE] Icatian Infantry (2)
4 [FE] Icatian Priest
4 [FE] Icatian Javelineers (1)

// Spells
4 [FE] Zelyon Sword
3 [FE] Icatian Town
4 [FE] Aeolipile
4 [FE] Conch Horn

Honestly I could make a mono blue deck that is better than that black deck.

Edit: So I did:

// Lands
23 [TE] Island (1)

// Creatures
3 [FE] Homarid Warrior (1)
4 [FE] River Merfolk
4 [FE] Homarid (1)
4 [FE] Vodalian Soldiers (4)
3 [FE] Vodalian Mage (1)

// Spells
3 [FE] Aeolipile
4 [FE] Conch Horn
3 [FE] Homarid Spawning Bed
2 [FE] Tidal Influence
4 [FE] Tidal Flats (2)
3 [FE] Merseine (2)

The problem with adjusting Fallen Empires is the fact that black not only has Hymn to Tourach, it also has the best creatures, like Order of the Ebon Hand, Derelor and some good tribal creatures. That makes it a bit more difficult to change. Green has some good cards too, so you might want to start there and consider splashing a color.

[MattH]

Here, I scanned the pages of the original Inquest set battle from 1997:

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/9217/boc1sx6.jpg
http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/2890/boc2jo1.jpg
http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/4739/boc3qy7.jpg
http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/3884/boc4az4.jpg
http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/9280/boc5qo4.jpg
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/3061/boc6fa6.jpg

Note the different rules they used: they gave small sets some tools from the base set to make up for their inherent handicap. Homelands actually didn't come in last!

[freakish777]

I was wondering why the US deck went for "abusing" Academy when there really aren't that many good mana artifacts in that set?

Have you considered abusing Yawgmoth's Will instead? You can get a decent control deck with the likes of:

Dark Rit
Will
Duress
Persecute
Phyrexian Processor
Pestilence
Worn Powerstone
Corrupt

Granted you'll have to do some stretching to fill in various remaining parts (particularly killing creatures and sweeping the board, you could potentially "splash" White for Catastrophe and Disenchant), but it seems like you'd end up with a stronger deck.

At the very least adding black to your current deck gives you Ritual and Yawg Will, which are both busted, as well as Duress for protection.

[Alfred]

Here, I scanned the pages of the original Inquest set battle from 1997:

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/9217/boc1sx6.jpg
http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/2890/boc2jo1.jpg
http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/4739/boc3qy7.jpg
http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/3884/boc4az4.jpg
http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/9280/boc5qo4.jpg
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/3061/boc6fa6.jpg

Note the different rules they used: they gave small sets some tools from the base set to make up for their inherent handicap. Homelands actually didn't come in last!

Thanks a lot Matt. That's a really cool thing for you to do, because I was really curious how this article worked!