[Deck] CounterSliver

[Pinder]

Alrighty, since it was getting so confusing to keep the list updated with so much junk clogging the first post, I'm starting from scratch and just posting the most recent list here. If you don't understand the card choices already, odds are you don't know enough about the deck to start posting right away anyway. Give it a few test runs if you don't understand.

The List:
Last Updated: 10/5

//Land (17)
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
2 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Plains

//Creatures (16)
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Plated Sliver
3 Talon Sliver
2 Winged Sliver

//Draw (8)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions

//Countermagic (10)
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
3 Stifle

//Removal (7)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives

//Sideboard
4 Meddling Mage
3 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Chain of Vapor/Disenchant/Naturalize/Something else to deal with enchantments and artifacts.

[Togit460]

I like your post!
It's an interesting idea, and one that's viable since rifter is dying out more due to iggy pop's recent uprise. Unfortunatly everyone and their brother will play Iggy pop, so you need to find a respectable way to beat this game 1. I remember counter-slivers back in the day, was a fun deck. The reason I like this decklist over all other versions of it is that it's stream-lined. It's not trying to look like the tribal deck with the queen and overlord, it's trying to win games. Thresh looks like a bad matchup game 1, since they can make bigger creatures quicker, thus overrunning you, but since there isn't any evidence either way i can't prove it. I'd like to see this deck in action, need's a tourney report and some suggested changes at the end. For the moment I'd say stifle should swing iggy-pop heavily in your favor. especially since many iggy-pop players just picked up the deck and won't know how it works well enough to outplay you. -peace, j.j.

[The Rack]

I don't think you will ever ever se the mirror.....ever. I hope you were being sarcastic. :P
Now I pose a question.:

Does E Plague hurt you? It is in a loyt of SB and that could pose a problem.

[Pinder]

I like your post!
It's an interesting idea, and one that's viable since rifter is dying out more due to iggy pop's recent uprise.


:laugh: lol, I completely forgot about Rifter. It would be tough. Of course, if you can keep humility off the table (FoW, Chain of Vapor), you should be okay. Stifle is also fantastic here. But yeah, Rifter would be bad for us, since the entire deck is creature abilities.



I'd like to see this deck in action, need's a tourney report and some suggested changes at the end. For the moment I'd say stifle should swing iggy-pop heavily in your favor. especially since many iggy-pop players just picked up the deck and won't know how it works well enough to outplay you. -peace, j.j.

Why thank you :).

We should have a tourney report by this Friday when we take it to the weekly tourney, but it should also be noted here that our meta is seriously fucked up. Our meta is pretty much 7-8 versions of Gobs (hence the heavy testing), ranging from optimal to jank, a few builds of thresh, and random ass jank. We should clean up nicely, but it probably won't yeild terribly conclusive results.



I don't think you will ever ever se the mirror.....ever. I hope you were being sarcastic. :P
Now I pose a question.:

Does E Plague hurt you? It is in a loyt of SB and that could pose a problem.


I don't think E. Plague would hurt us that much. Between Muscle and Plated Sliver, you get enough of a toughness boost to keep your dudes from dying, and to be honest, only 2 of your slivers (Winged and Talon) die to E. Plague anyway. And those aren't even the 4-ofs. Every other sliver in the deck has 2 toughness, so they won't die to a single E. Plague. And the deck runs Chain of Vapor to deal with problem enchantments anyway. Sure, they'll replay it, but if you make sure you have counter backup, you can keep it from hitting the table again.

You're probably right about the mirror, though. We're not really taking this to any really big tourneys, so it probably won't gain popularity very fast, if at all. If someone else wanted to pilot it, though...:wink:

[Clark Kant]

I love slivers.

But wouldn't you be better off playing UGBR Thres's manabase over UGWs?

You can play some burn.

You can play Dark Confidant.

You can play Blade Sliver and the new Sedge Sliver which is the best sliver ever printed.

Magma Sliver can be a good win condition if you need.

All the gold 2 mana for 2/2 slivers are very strong and you can run all of those but the veyr worst one.

Heart Sliver's haste is awesome

Just saying, you have a ton of better options than White gives you.

Just play a bunch of cantrips like thres instead of one drops.

Also, have you thought about Living Wish over Eldamarie's Call for it's versatility. You could run Talon Sliver along with Meddling Mages in the side.

[MasterBlaster]

I love slivers.

But wouldn't you be better off playing UGBR Thres's manabase over UGWs?

If you lose white you lose STP, and Armageddon and Meddling Mage in the sideboard.


All the gold 2 mana for 2/2 slivers are very strong and you can run all of those but the veyr worst one.

You're right that Victual Sliver sucks, but Crystaline Sliver is possibly the best ever.

[MattH]

Aether Vial didn't make the cut? And instant-speed slivers, too, oh my.

[Goblin Snowman]

[QUOTE=Pinder;88026]
Piledriver. Sure, you can run your 1/2 into my dudes

Pro Blue for the lose. Does Worship have any consideration?

[Togit460]

engineered plague won't kill this deck for the same reasons it doesn't kill goblins decks, they have options to get rid of it or nullify the effects, hence mainboarded disenchants, naturalizes, goblin kings, etc.... slivers can do all of that except that muscle sliver is a cheaper more needed king anyways, which makes the plague a whole lot less effective, remember him saying how it helps nullify cards like pyroclasm, well, engineered plague works like that in this situation. of course 2 engineered plagues is GG without multiple muscle slivers are on the board, and if you can't keep it off with your wall of counters. I'd like the admin. for this board to rename this counter-sliver, since it's got the same idea, and i love that name. Thresh so far looks like the toughest matchup for this deck, with goblins being rather simple, and iggy-pop simply about playskill. B/W deadguy ale might be more interesting though, i think that the main reason to stay with UGW manabase and not go with exotic slivers should mainly be due to the presence of wasteland/sinkhole/rishadan port. all of these cards shut down that manabase more effectively than the UGW manabase. I certainly think that aether vial would be a decent inclusion if there's more slivers. it solves the counter-war over your creatures with thresh, and helps you save mana for counters/ability's. thoughts? -peace, j.j.

[Maverick676]

First off I wanted to thank everyone from their feedback, (im helping with the deck too btw).

Now, in regards to the suggestion to cut white, weve actually been trying out a BGR version, but its a totally different deck thats needs more testing.

Cutting white in this deck is basically out of the question. Crystaline sliver is the backbone of the deck. Not STP is the MVP of removal, plus plated sliver is pyroclasm protection with muscle sliver or himself.

[MasterBlaster]

Now, in regards to the suggestion to cut white, weve actually been trying out a BGR version, but its a totally different deck thats needs more testing.

Thats funny that you say that. As soon as I first read this thread I started brainstorming a BGR sliver deck with duress and bolt. Anyways, such a deck would need its own thread once a list is perfected.

[Pinder]

Piledriver. Sure, you can run your 1/2 into my dudes


Pro Blue for the lose. Does Worship have any consideration?

Wait, Piledriver's triggered ability has pro blue too? Oh NOES! Seriously, Stifle targets the ability, not the creature. We thought that at first too, though. It's just that Stifle is so awesome

Vial was in the original build, but we cut it because we'd rather just run more slivers (and it makes Chain of Vapor a little worse). It's honestly still a consideration, even if it's just SB against control, though.

As for Worship, we used to run 1 in the main, but it ended up being a little bit of a win-more card. Also has poor synergy with Chain of Vapor, but that honestly doesn't matter too much. I could see it in the sideboard as well, or possibly in the Talon Sliver slot, as Talon sliver is mostly there against Gobbos.

Honestly I'm just waiting for the white flanking sliver :laugh:.

EDIT:


Thats funny that you say that. As soon as I first read this thread I started brainstorming a BGR sliver deck with duress and bolt. Anyways, such a deck would need its own thread once a list is perfected.


I agree. The RGB version would be straight Aggro though, as opposed to this Aggro Control shell. All I can say is that T2 Muscle Sliver followed by T3 Sedge Sliver is the sexy.

[Volt]

Counter-Sliver is one of my all-time favorite decks. Your list seems really solid. I love the fact that you're running Eladamri's Call, btw. I was using that tech years ago, but I've never seen anyone else running it. UGW is definitely the way to go if you want to make a competitive sliver deck. RGB would never be anything more than a "fun" deck.

[Maverick676]

RGW is definitely the way to go if you want to make a competitive sliver deck.

Did you mean UGW or are you serious about the deck dropping blue for red, if so I would be interested in what you would add in, specifically which slivers, to make up for the loss of crystaline sliver and counterspells.

[Volt]

Did you mean UGW or are you serious about the deck dropping blue for red, if so I would be interested in what you would add in, specifically which slivers, to make up for the loss of crystaline sliver and counterspells.

Oops. Yeah, I meant UGW. Sorry. I'm going to edit my post to fix it...

[Pinder]

EDIT: Wow, Volt's last edit made my original post entirely irrelevant. UGW FTW!

On that note I've been thinking that this deck already has an impressive matchup with Gobs, so it's probably okay to cut a few cards to improve the Thresh/Gro matchup, even if it would soften the Gobs matchup a little. Take Stifle for example. I know I've been singing this card's praises ever since I posted this list (I mean, it is great), and it definitely fits, but mostly it's only great against Goblins and Storm. With the Thresh matchup, it doesn't really hit much except fetchlands, with Thresh being static and all. Maybe shaving a few of our cards down to 3-ofs to improve our Thresh matchup wouldn't be a bad idea. Maverick was suggesting MD Counterspells, which I agree would help with Thresh, but might be too mana intensive. Aether Vial could also fit in this slot to help against Thresh, I suppose. It would probably look something like:

-1 StP
-1 Chain of Vapor
-1 Stifle
+3 Counterspell/Aether Vial/Other card to help improve problem matchups

Further testing will ensue.

[Volt]

//Land
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
3 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

//Creatures
4 Crystaline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
1 Talon Sliver

//Spells
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Stifle
2 Eladamri's Call



Wait... I just realized you have 63 cards maindeck. You gotta cut something. How important are the Chain of Vapors?

[EDIT: Also, I agree a couple of hard counterspells would be good. How about:

-4 Chain of Vapor
-1 Stifle
+2 Counterspell ]

[Volt]

There's a player in my area who plays Slivers regularly. He runs Aether Vial. Personally, I don't see the point of using up slots for an artifact that will only be used to cast a 2cc creature for free two turns later.

[Maverick676]

Pinder actually got the main deck a little wrong, the actual list is
- 1 serum visions
- 1 flooded strand

so there is actually 61 cards (oops), but im hesitant to say what card gets cut until i discuss with pinder. My guess is that it will either be 1 land or stifle possibly. Since chain of vapor is so freakin great in this deck.

at least two more cards need to be cut to make room for counterspells though, Ill test without chain probably but i still really like it, its a great way to answer engineered plague, aether vial ect.

[Volt]

Pinder actually got the main deck a little wrong, the actual list is
- 1 serum visions
- 1 flooded strand

so there is actually 61 cards (oops), but im hesitant to say what card gets cut until i discuss with pinder. My guess is that it will either be 1 land or stifle possibly. Since chain of vapor is so freakin great in this deck.

at least two more cards need to be cut to make room for counterspells though, Ill test without chain probably but i still really like it, its a great way to answer engineered plague, aether vial ect.


I wouldn't go below 17 land. I think we can take a lesson from UGW Gro, since this is basically the same deck except with slivers instead of thresh creatures. Gro always plays 17-18 lands.

[Pinder]

Pinder actually got the main deck a little wrong, the actual list is
- 1 serum visions
- 1 flooded strand


Oh, did I? Oops. The decklist above has been changed.

At any rate, I agree with Volt that we shouldn't drop below 17 lands. 17 is stretching it a little thin as is, and any lower would open us up to mana screw, especially in a three color deck.

I agree with you though that pulling another Serum Visions is probably better than pulling Chain of Vapor. 6 Cantrips is a little low, but we might be able to make it work.

And what do you think about upping the Call count by one? At only 2 I hardly ever see it. This could also be a good argument for cutting it, but it's close enough to Demonic Tutor in this deck that I'm hesitant to do that. It might just be that it's main purpose is to nab Winged Sliver so you can fly over for lethal once you've built up your Sliver base.

[Maverick676]

As for what to cut, I'm with you that 1 serum visions is the right call to get the deck down to 60. I still have no idea what to cut for the counterspells though.

I really think that 2 is the right number for call though, because of the mana cost you dont really want to see more than one per game if at all since its main purpose is to tutor for winged or talon sliver. I definitly wouldnt cut it for anything but living wish.

To continue upon the living wish train of thought I think it might be better than call because it would free up deck space and allow for counterspells in the main deck without cutting cantrips, stifle or bounce, plus you would get some utility like ronom unicorn and sex monkey.

Ive been trying to come up with a few ideas on how to beat Iggy-Pop since this matchup is horrible. At first I thought about more counters but thats not really the problem. Defense grid is what really kill this deck in the Iggy match, it prevents all your counters and stifle from doing their job, so the deck needs an answer that is not a responsive spell.


Heres what Ive thougt of:

- Tormod's crypt, sac in responce to Ill gotten gains
- Leyline of the void = GG in most cases
- Planar Void - this would require a black spash however
- Samurai of the pale curtain WW might be rough but Iggy has no land disruption so it would probably be okay. This would only prevent reccurring lion's eye though, which im not sure would be enough to stop the combo.
- Chalice for 0 - again hating on the diamond, question is would this slow iggy down enough to stop the combo?

Of all these ideas i think leyline would be the best, mulliganning down to it would be painful but if you drop this before the game starts and then mage naming their bounce it would be GG.

[scrumdogg]

As for what to cut, I'm with you that 1 serum visions is the right call to get the deck down to 60. I still have no idea what to cut for the counterspells though.

I really think that 2 is the right number for call though, because of the mana cost you dont really want to see more than one per game if at all since its main purpose is to tutor for winged or talon sliver. I definitly wouldnt cut it for anything but living wish.

To continue upon the living wish train of thought I think it might be better than call because it would free up deck space and allow for counterspells in the main deck without cutting cantrips, stifle or bounce, plus you would get some utility like ronom unicorn and sex monkey.

Ive been trying to come up with a few ideas on how to beat Iggy-Pop since this matchup is horrible. At first I thought about more counters but thats not really the problem. Defense grid is what really kill this deck in the Iggy match, it prevents all your counters and stifle from doing their job, so the deck needs an answer that is not a responsive spell.


Heres what Ive thougt of:

- Tormod's crypt, sac in responce to Ill gotten gains
- Leyline of the void = GG in most cases
- Planar Void - this would require a black spash however
- Samurai of the pale curtain WW might be rough but Iggy has no land disruption so it would probably be okay. This would only prevent reccurring lion's eye though, which im not sure would be enough to stop the combo.
- Chalice for 0 - again hating on the diamond, question is would this slow iggy down enough to stop the combo?

Of all these ideas i think leyline would be the best, mulliganning down to it would be painful but if you drop this before the game starts and then mage naming their bounce it would be GG.

Why not run some combination of Chalice & Crypt? Both fit right into your mana curve without disrupting either your tempo or your gameplan. They also have utility against a number of other decks. You might also consider Null Rod, which doesn't hurt you but does affect a numberof other decks, although it would mean not running Crypt obviously.

[Volt]

Why not run some combination of Chalice & Crypt? Both fit right into your mana curve without disrupting either your tempo or your gameplan. They also have utility against a number of other decks. You might also consider Null Rod, which doesn't hurt you but does affect a numberof other decks, although it would mean not running Crypt obviously.

Chalice just plain doesn't make sense for this deck. I was actually thinking Engineered Explosives might be good as an answer for Chalice, as well as blowing up other random nuisances. I think the Gro builds that run EE are better than the ones that don't, so it's worth considering for this deck, too.

Null Rod is a great sideboard card that doesn't get enough play, imo. It's awesome against Faerie Stompy, Affinity, Iggy Pop, and some other decks. I think it might actually hurt Iggy Pop more than Tormod's Crypt does. It's even decent against Vial Goblins, although I would rather have Pithing Needle for that matchup.

[Pinder]

Chalice just plain doesn't make sense for this deck.


Yeah, when 20+ cards in the MD cost 1 mana, chalice doesn't make any sense at all. In fact, Chalice is one of the things we have to worry about.



I was actually thinking Engineered Explosives might be good as an answer for Chalice, as well as blowing up other random nuisances. I think the Gro builds that run EE are better than the ones that don't, so it's worth considering for this deck, too.


We originally had 3 MD, but we took them out for specific reasons. First, there wasn't much at 1 mana that we couldn't already deal with MD. Second, EE for 2 kills all of our dudes. Third, EE for 3 doesn't happen often, and there's not a whole lot at 3 that we need to blow up, either. It would definitely be great as an answer to Chalice at 1, though, which makes it more than a consideration for the board, and possibly even to put back in the MD.




Null Rod is a great sideboard card that doesn't get enough play, imo. It's awesome against Faerie Stompy, Affinity, Iggy Pop, and some other decks. I think it might actually hurt Iggy Pop more than Tormod's Crypt does. It's even decent against Vial Goblins, although I would rather have Pithing Needle for that matchup.

That is actually a really good idea. Doesn't do much for our Thresh matchup, though. Oh well.



To continue upon the living wish train of thought I think it might be better than call because it would free up deck space and allow for counterspells in the main deck without cutting cantrips, stifle or bounce, plus you would get some utility like ronom unicorn and sex monkey.


You have a point, but you shouldn't forget that Call is instant, so you can do it at the end of their turn. The main thing I don't like about Wish here is that you have to play it on your turn, and usually you have to wait until next turn to drop the dude. Fetching Unicorns is sexy, though. Maybe we should try them out again.

I think that Crypt is our best sideboard choice here. It doesn't hit Iggy Pop like Null Rod does, but it also hits Thresh pretty hard, which is a matchup we need to improve on as well. If Iggy Pop starts showing in full force, though, Null Rod will probably be better.

[Maverick676]

Well it sounds like crypt is the way to go for the sideboard since it improves two matchups significantly, null rod is something i am considering for my meta since white weenie with equipment seems to be on the rise, but i already use needles, so null rods might not be needed.

I definitely think that hydroblast needs to be cut from the sideboard since the goblin match is so good already, this should free up some slots for crypts/wish targets should we decide to go that route over call.

[scrumdogg]

Chalice just plain doesn't make sense for this deck. I was actually thinking Engineered Explosives might be good as an answer for Chalice, as well as blowing up other random nuisances. I think the Gro builds that run EE are better than the ones that don't, so it's worth considering for this deck, too.

Null Rod is a great sideboard card that doesn't get enough play, imo. It's awesome against Faerie Stompy, Affinity, Iggy Pop, and some other decks. I think it might actually hurt Iggy Pop more than Tormod's Crypt does. It's even decent against Vial Goblins, although I would rather have Pithing Needle for that matchup.

I assumed we were talking about your combo matchups, which need shoring. Chalice at zero hurts Iggy, as does Chalice at one (also very good versus Solidarity & it hurts them much more than you). It should not affect you much since you would be siding out the STPs vs Iggy & probably the STPs and Chains versus Solidarity. Your solid win conditions are all 2cc, 1cc is set-up & utility. Null Rod is fine, but nothing to help your Solidarity match, Crypt is great versus Iggy & helps with Thresh but again does little to Solidarity.

[AngryTroll]

The guy that brings Slivers is a friend of mine, and we have spent many afternoons playing Slivers vs. UG Madness, RGSA, TJS, the works.

The reason he runs Vial is that it opens up a world of combat tricks and ways to dodge removal. Just having Vial in play with two counters makes opponents change their plans for combat. Instat speed Crystalline Slivers are about the best thing ever.

Running one or two Essense Slivers also helps the aggro match, and makes Vial more useful. He also runs two Fact or Fiction, which is just plain crazy.

[Pinder]

I definitely think that hydroblast needs to be cut from the sideboard since the goblin match is so good already, this should free up some slots for crypts/wish targets should we decide to go that route over call.

I completely agree. I came to the same conclusion.



Null Rod is fine, but nothing to help your Solidarity match, Crypt is great versus Iggy & helps with Thresh but again does little to Solidarity.


The thing here is, we don't really need help against Solidarity. The reason our Iggy Pop matchup is less than favorable is mainly because defense grid makes harder to keep them from going off. And that it sometimes goes off as early as turn 2. If we can keep Defense Grid off the table, Stifle owns Iggy Pop.

Now, Solidarity doesn't run MD Defense Grid, nor does it go off on turns 2-3 (It usually needs at least 4 lands). It also has to resolve High Tide to go off. So with FoW, Daze, and Stifle in the main, plus Geddons in from the board, the Solidarity matchup is already looking pretty solid.

Our problem matchups currently are Iggy Pop and Thresh. Since Crypt hits both of them, that makes it the best choice here in my opinion.



Running one or two Essense Slivers also helps the aggro match, and makes Vial more useful. He also runs two Fact or Fiction, which is just plain crazy.


How many lands are you running? Because Essence Sliver costs 4. So does FoF. From what I can tell with testing, we can hit our first 3 land drops fairly consistently, but the 4th usually takes a bit of cantriping to hit. Both of those just seem pretty expensive. And our Aggro matchup is already pretty solid.

I agree that Aether Vial needs some definite reconsidering, though.

EDIT: And with Vial, I suppose that the cost on Essence Sliver isn't too much of a problem. And we could always bounce and replay it to get it back to two counters :laugh:. Maybe Essence as a 1 or 2 of as a Call target.

EDIT MORE: Or a wish target....

[Orchard]

Goas, is that you?! I'm ducksoup31 on MOTL. If it's not you, ignore this.

I must say, I'm really liking the deck!

[Maverick676]

To respond to all the discussion about improving the aggro matchup, it is not nessecary since it's great already. Stifle against fetches and chain or vapor/swords completely ruins there tempo. Plus once you stabilize with 3 or 4 slivers they cant punch throught with anything short of a darksteel collosus or something.

The matchups that do need work are the Iggy-Pop specifically (not combo in general), and thresh tormod's crypts seem like a great answer for both of these since the main deck defense grids iggy plays are difficult to stop. Since they can play them while going off.

As for running more expensive slivers i just dont see a need. Sure essence is nice but not really an essenstial sliver at all, he's 4 mana and at 17 lands thats not a reliable turn 4 drop.

In regards to Aether Vial, while this card could let me play more expensive slivers it will make chain of vapor less than great because it will now screw you over too, And I REALLY like the chains of vapor theyre just so good in any aggro matchup, plus if your land flooded it can be used for suprisingly effective combat tricks.

BTW Ive already tested Fact or Fiction and found that 17 lands just cant support it reliably.

[Volt]

Would it make sense to have a single Meddling Mage maindeck as a Call target? Also, it just doesn't seem like there's enough room for both Chain of Vapor and Stifle in the deck. Which is more important? It sounds like Pinder really likes Stifle, while Maverick really likes Chain of Vapor.

Here's the decklist I have in mind right now:


4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Plains

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
1 Talon Sliver
1 Meddling Mage

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Brainstorm
3 Serum Visions
2 Eladamri's Call

Sideboard:
4 Pithing Needle
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Seal of Cleansing
3 Meddling Mage

[Maverick676]

Volt your list looks good. I think your right about the chain of vapor/stifle issue, one needs to go. Which one I'm not sure. I think that will probably be metagame dependent. Chain is generally better against aggro, gobs being the exception, plus it provides an answer to anything that slips through the counters. Stifle is great against control, combo and specifically gobs (see pinders incredibly enthusiastic explanation)

As for maindeck mage im not so sure, its slow to come down probably not before turn 4+ with the call which might be too slow in the relevant matchups except solidarity then it would be golden game 1. Almost makes me want to go the living wish route for additional "maindeck" utility.

[Volt]

Volt your list looks good. I think your right about the chain of vapor/stifle issue, one needs to go. Which one I'm not sure. I think that will probably be metagame dependent. Chain is generally better against aggro, gobs being the exception, plus it provides an answer to anything that slips through the counters. Stifle is great against control, combo and specifically gobs (see pinders incredibly enthusiastic explanation)

As for maindeck mage im not so sure, its slow to come down probably not before turn 4+ with the call which might be too slow in the relevant matchups except solidarity then it would be golden game 1. Almost makes me want to go the living wish route for additional "maindeck" utility.

The more I think about it, the more I think I like Stifle over Chain. It's so good against wastelands, fetch lands, storm, various goblin shenanigans, and so on.

The lone maindeck Meddling Mage can come out. You're probably right about it being too slow. I also question how valuable the lone maindeck Talon sliver is. Maybe that could be relegated to the sideboard. That frees up two slots right there for Chains or something else (Pithing Needle?). I suppose you could even go with the 3 Stifle + 3 Chain of Vapor plan.


EDIT: Btw, other things Stifle is awesome against: Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives

[Pinder]

I must say, I'm really liking the deck!

Well, thank you. And I'm not Goas, and I'm pretty sure Maverick isn't Goas. Volt might be Goas though. Check with him ;).


It sounds like Pinder really likes Stifle, while Maverick really likes Chain of Vapor.


Now, I really like Stifle, but I also really like Chain of Vapor. If we end up putting more targetable permanents I can see Chain leaving rather than Stifle, but as it stands, under Crystalline (and sometimes even not) Chain of Vapor is just broken in this deck. Having a one mana answer to anything that sticks to the table is just fantastic.

For a brief overview, I give you a list of the pros and cons of each:

Stifle
Pros: Well, you know. Scroll up a bit.
Cons: Doesn't do too much against Thresh or anything else static, and also isn't the best topdeck in the late game.

Chain of Vapor
Pros: Answers just about anything, from pesky creatures (a la Meddling Mage) to problem enchantments or artifacts (a la Worship/Mongoose or something silly like that).
Cons: It's good, but it's really only fantastic under Crystalline Sliver, and even then only when your only other permanents are also Slivers (and land).

So, I think it comes down to our other inclusions. I haven't tested it, but Volt's list looks pretty nice. If we run Aether Vial/Meddling Mage/other non-Sliver permanents, I think that Chain of Vapor is out, as Swords is just as good of an answer to problem creatures, and we don't see too much by way of problem enchantments.

Optimally, I'd really like to see both stay in the deck, even if it's only in limited numbers. Between cantrips and fetches, we should still be able to get them when we need them. The only question there being, which do we usually need more? I'd go with Stifle here (suprising, no?). Here's a suggested list if both stay:

//Land
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
3 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

//Creatures
4 Crystaline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
1 Talon Sliver

//Spells
4 FoW
4 Daze
3 Aether Vial
2 Counterspell
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Serum Visions
3 Stifle

You'll notice that I cut the Calls for the Counterspells, and threw in the Vials. I also cut Stifle to 3, StP to 3, and Chains to 2. Now Calls for Counterspells might be a bad trade off, but I'm still not sold on Call as a 2-of. At that number, I just don't think we'll see it often enough for it to matter. I could be wrong though, but only more testing will prove that. Aether Vial seems like it warrants a little more testing here, but with only 15 creatures maindeck mutliples would be sort of useless, and my first thought is that eventually we're gonna run out of creatures to pump into this thing. If that ends up being the case, then we could cut them to bring the Stifle/StP count up to 4, and the Chain count up to 3. Or, if we end up cutting Chain entirely, we could add Call back in alongside Counterspell as a 3 of, which is a more appropriate number in my opinion if we want to see it reliably.

EDIT:


The lone maindeck Meddling Mage can come out. You're probably right about it being too slow. I also question how valuable the lone maindeck Talon sliver is. Maybe that could be relegated to the sideboard. That frees up two slots right there for Chains or something else (Pithing Needle?). I suppose you could even go with the 3 Stifle + 3 Chain of Vapor plan.

EDIT: Btw, other things Stifle is awesome against: Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives


You're probably right about the lone Talon Sliver being less than great, especially since our Gobs matchup is reliably fantastic. The only issue I see here is that if we cut it, we would probably need to cut it for another Sliver, to keep the Sliver count (and creature count in general) the same. It could possibly turn into Winged Sliver number 3, which is generally more useful in most matchups anyway.

[Volt]

Well, thank you. And I'm not Goas, and I'm pretty sure Maverick isn't Goas. Volt might be Goas though. Check with him ;).

I am not Goas. :)



//Land
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
3 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

//Creatures
4 Crystaline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
1 Talon Sliver

//Spells
4 FoW
4 Daze
3 Aether Vial
2 Counterspell
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Serum Visions
3 Stifle


You'll notice that I cut the Calls for the Counterspells, and threw in the Vials. I also cut Stifle to 3, StP to 3, and Chains to 2. Now Calls for Counterspells might be a bad trade off, but I'm still not sold on Call as a 2-of. At that number, I just don't think we'll see it often enough for it to matter. I could be wrong though, but only more testing will prove that. Aether Vial seems like it warrants a little more testing here, but with only 15 creatures maindeck mutliples would be sort of useless, and my first thought is that eventually we're gonna run out of creatures to pump into this thing. If that ends up being the case, then we could cut them to bring the Stifle/StP count up to 4, and the Chain count up to 3. Or, if we end up cutting Chain entirely, we could add Call back in alongside Counterspell as a 3 of, which is a more appropriate number in my opinion if we want to see it reliably.



Maybe your play-testing will prove differently, but I don't think Aether Vial will really help this deck all that much, aside from being able to do some nifty combat tricks from time to time. The deck simply doesn't run enough creatures to make the Aether Vials consistently useful. Also, they are susceptible to hate.

Regarding the Eladamri's Call, I think the proper way to look at them is not as "2x Eladamri's Call," but rather as "Crystalline Sliver 5-6," and "Winged Sliver 3-4." Just my opinion. Of course, Counterspell is pretty good, too. :wink:

[Maverick676]

Well after looking at everyones list heres what im considering for my friday tournament, results will probably show where cuts/additions should be made.

4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Forest

4 Crystaline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Talon Sliver//Winged Sliver

4 FoW
4 Daze
2 Counterspell
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Serum Visions
3 Stifle

SB-------------------
4 Meddling Mage
4 Pithing Needle
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Null Rod
3 Tormod's Crypt

Aether Vial Ive already tested and found that its less than stellar in this deck. I'm not trying to shut anyone down or anything but it seemed like every time this came online turn 1 it only let me play a free sliver that i had the mana for anyway. The vial is good enough however to warrant some further testing, It would be nice to go in response to your swords ill vial in crystalline MUHAHAHAHA. It would probably have to be a 4 of or nothing though, since you always want to play it first turn if possible.

I'm still not sure about which sliver should be in the main talon or winged? Usually you need about three or four slivers on the board to win and by that time your bigger guys are usaully 3/4's and 4/5's so if they have first strike they can cut down just about anything in the format except fatties like enforcer or something. In which case you aim a swords the fatty's way.
I guess the question im posing is whether it's better to have the evasion of flying or the board dominating first strike?

I have also upped the visions count by one since taking out call is just like taking out two slivers, visions should help find more slivers/answers which is always good.

A quick not on the sideboard: I am opting to run 2 null rods because at least 5 people in my meta are likely to play White Weenie with 12+ equipment and null rod gives them nightmares.

[Complete_Jank]

At first I was going to say Slivers, WTH.

However, the write up was pretty funny, and it isn't too bad, so lets see how it does.

[Volt]

I'm still not sure about which sliver should be in the main talon or winged? Usually you need about three or four slivers on the board to win and by that time your bigger guys are usaully 3/4's and 4/5's so if they have first strike they can cut down just about anything in the format except fatties like enforcer or something. In which case you aim a swords the fatty's way.
I guess the question im posing is whether it's better to have the evasion of flying or the board dominating first strike?


That's a really good question, and it's something I hadn't really thought about. I guess the conventional wisdom is that evasion trumps all, but I think your question merits play-testing to figure out the right answer. One point in Winged Sliver's favor is that flying does protect your crew against things like Flamebreak, Earthquake, etc. I don't think those cards are big concerns right now, though, unless there's a lot of Burninator in your area. I think this deck probably rolls over and dies to Burninator, anyway.

I really like the changes you made to the deck, although I would recommend keeping at least one Eladamri's Call in there. As I was telling Pinder, I think the proper way to think of it is not as some random spell that you rarely draw, but rather as an extra copy of whatever sliver you may happen to need. In any case, good luck on Friday night. I look forward to your report.

[Complete_Jank]

I think current format First Strike is better than flying, however, if you ran a one of and a call you could fetch the first strike of flying.

[Pinder]

Maybe your play-testing will prove differently, but I don't think Aether Vial will really help this deck all that much.


No, you're right. Vials are next to useless in this deck.



I'm not trying to shut anyone down or anything but it seemed like every time this came online turn 1 it only let me play a free sliver that i had the mana for anyway


And that's exactly why. They don't speed you up any, and they're the only target they'll have for chaining Vapor, so it gets bounced like a mofo. Also, more often than not I found myself holding Vial on turn 1 anyway, just because keeping mana open for a Stifle/Chain/Swords was usually the smarter play.



Regarding the Eladamri's Call, I think the proper way to look at them is not as "2x Eladamri's Call," but rather as "Crystalline Sliver 5-6," and "Winged Sliver 3-4." Just my opinion. Of course, Counterspell is pretty good, too. :wink:

Yeah, you're right about that too. It's not so much that we want to see call every game, just that call lets us see our Slivers a little more often. And Counterspell is great (when is it not?), so I think a 2-of here is an appropriate number as well.

Maverick, if you have the Calls by Friday, you should be running them. Two is a good number. And I agree that Null Rod is a definite sideboard for our nubtastic meta. It's too bad I won't be able to be there to see people whine about how they can't use their Jitte :laugh:.

As for the flying vs first strike issue, my opinion is that it depends on how slow you want to go. With first strike, your creatures will eat theirs, sure, but mostly it will be useful in keeping their creatures from attacking, as they probably won't block a 3/4 first striker unless they have to, and probably won't swing into one unless they're total idiots. Flying lets your creatures attack unabated most of the time, but then you're open to the counterattack. So if you want to be aggressive and beats as early and as often as possible, you go with flying. If you want to keep their beats off your face and don't mind sitting around till you can attack and defend effectively, go with first strike.

Given this, I think that you should do both (who didn't see that coming?). My suggestion is that you switch around the counts, though. Run 2 MD Talon and 1 MD Winged. That way, you can dominate the board with your first strikers (which are actually useful against Thresh to keep their Mongoose from running you over), and then when you have enough dudes to have a decent clock (usually 3-4), Call for a Winged Sliver to break the inevitable stalemate that first strike will create. Then you can hold back a sliver or two to stave off their guys while unabashedly beating their face in with your flyers.

Oh, and first strike pwns Goblins, which is about 5/4 of our meta :laugh:.
(EDIT: and on that note, running 2x Talon makes 2/3 of your slivers nonblue, so you can block Piledriver like a pro)

Here's the list I think you should run Friday:

//Land
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
3 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

//Creatures
4 Crystaline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
2 Talon Sliver
1 Winged Sliver

//Spells
4 FoW
4 Daze
2 Counterspell
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Serum Visions
3 Stifle
2 Eladamri's Call

In this case I put Swords as a 4 of, with Chain and Stifle at 3. Any one of those three could easily be the 4-of, though, depending on what you're looking for in a given meta.

[Volt]

I really, really like this deck. Combining slivers with the Gro draw/counter engine is genius. I wonder why nobody thought of it sooner? And the addition of Stifle/Chain of Vapor is a great touch. I have a feeling this may end up being a tier 1 deck, right alongside Gro. The matchups are a little different than Gro's (Counter-sliver seems to have a significantly stronger Goblin matchup, for one thing), but basically it plays the same. I'm frantically acquiring the cards necessary to put this deck together so I can play it at a couple of local events this weekend.

[Maverick676]

Yeah the deck is looking great, it has a much more streamlined feel than it had originally. The addition of two more hard counters should improve the matchups against most combo decks, iggy-pop still looks like a hard one. But I doubt any deck has a really easy matchup with it anyway, crypts should be enough to stop it though.

Just for giggles i thougt i'd post the original list that started this whole idea:

4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand

4 Crystaline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Winged Sliver
4 Talon Sliver
4 Heart Sliver

4 Aether Vial

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt

AGAIN PLEASE NO COMMENTS ON THIS LIST IT'S JUST TO SHOW HOW MUCH THE DECK HAS IMPROVED.

[Pinder]

I really, really like this deck. Combining slivers with the Gro draw/counter engine is genius.


Really? Awww, shucks.




I wonder why nobody thought of it sooner? And the addition of Stifle/Chain of Vapor is a great touch. I have a feeling this may end up being a tier 1 deck, right alongside Gro.


Stop, you're making me blush ;).



I'm frantically acquiring the cards necessary to put this deck together so I can play it at a couple of local events this weekend.

That's a great idea. I'd really like to see how this deck preforms outside of mine an Maverick's meta, it would help a lot in putting on the finishing touches. And as much exposure as possible would be nice :wink:.

And with regards to Maverick's list, that is indeed what we started with :laugh:. But he left out the best part, which is how we came up with it.
Basically, the story goes like this: Last Friday, Maverick was bored of playing Gro like he had been for the past few weeks, and wanted something different. He also decided this about 10 minutes before the tourney actually started. Flipping through his binder, he browsed the cards he had on hand to see what he could build in such a limited time span. His eyes landed on a playset of Muscle Slivers, and it was sealed. Slivers would be a blast to play! So we whipped up the decklist you see above, and started the first round. That list ended up going 2-2 (Only losing to, ironically enough, the mirror, and some other Tier 1 thing (Thresh?)). We were actually impressed both with how well a deck we made in 5 minutes did, and also impressed with the list of the only other guy who was playing Slivers. So if a deck we threw together could go 2-2, we figured, how far could a deck we actually spent time testing go?

I guess we'll find out :wink:.

[Durahan]

Ok, slivers being tier 1 is a bit of a stretch, but then again who knows? Who knew that there would be a tier 1 deck based on a mechanic from the odyssey block?

Anyway, I saw how this beat goblins. I would assume with meddling mage in board, FoW, daze, stifle, and whatever else you might want to run in board this deck can do well against solidarity and other combo decks.

My only concern is how you're going to handle actual thresh? When we were testing this against thresh it ended up getting owned. I don't really see anything that changed this deck's thresh match-up since that night.

Of course, I understand that in our meta, this problem is pretty much irrelevant cuz nobody actually plays thresh for some reason. However, I'd still like to see something that makes this a more favorable match-up. Oh well, perhaps we'll see something interesting come from Time Spiral that'll help us.

[Volt]

Ok, slivers being tier 1 is a bit of a stretch, but then again who knows? Who knew that there would be a tier 1 deck based on a mechanic from the odyssey block?

Anyway, I saw how this beat goblins. I would assume with meddling mage in board, FoW, daze, stifle, and whatever else you might want to run in board this deck can do well against solidarity and other combo decks.

My only concern is how you're going to handle actual thresh? When we were testing this against thresh it ended up getting owned. I don't really see anything that changed this deck's thresh match-up since that night.

Of course, I understand that in our meta, this problem is pretty much irrelevant cuz nobody actually plays thresh for some reason. However, I'd still like to see something that makes this a more favorable match-up. Oh well, perhaps we'll see something interesting come from Time Spiral that'll help us.

I'm interested in seeing how the Thresh matchup works out, too. It seems like we ought to be able to slow them down long enough to get into the mid/late game. At that point, our creatures should be better than theirs. Talon Sliver should help out a lot in this matchup. Talon Sliver + Crystalline Sliver stops Nimble Mongoose in it's tracks, and we can StP/counter anything else. Even if we lose the first game, games 2 & 3 should favor us after we side in Tormod's Crypt. I imagine it's a very, very tricky matchup, though.

Question: when you were playtesting the Slivers vs. Gro matchup, were you running a super-streamlined version of Countersliver like the one being discussed in this thread, or were your running a version with Aether Vial? Not that Counter-sliver has a huge presence in Legacy right now, but the ones I do occasionally see tend to run Aether Vial, which I think is a slightly dubious (not terrible, just slightly dubious) card selection for this deck.

[Pinder]

I think this deck's best bet against Thresh is a good pilot. I say this because this list is basically Thresh, but with Slivers (there are some differences, but the essence is the same). This yeilds pretty much the same results without the grave dependency, but is a tad slower. It makes up for that by disrupting the opponent in the early game. Thresh abuses the graveyard to get quick beats, we sacrifice speed for resiliency against grave hate. Sure, our creatures end up being first striking Mongoose on crack, but in order to do that we need to survive until we slap 3-4 of them on the table. I don't really think there's a maindeck option we can choose to shore up our Thresh matchup easily, and I think our best bet here is to looks at how Thresh is played in the mirror, since that's essentially what this matchup is. I think that it'll be tough, sure, but I don't think Thresh has much more of a better matchup against us than we do against them. Boarding in Crypts, I think we can swing this in our favor.

And Volt, I'm fairly sure that Durahan was running something very similar to the way the list is now (i.e., no Aether Vials, but no Counterspells, either). This is because I was sitting next to him when he played it :P.

[AngryTroll]

When I play the matchup, I play against a more midgame-oriented build, running more land, Fact or Fiction, and either mainboard Worship or Essence Sliver. There are also two mainboard Scrabbling Claws (I know, extremely random...but they are strong vs. Iggy, Survival, and Gro, which sees a lot of play here. They also cycle.). The build also runs Mana Leak in addition to Force.

That match tends to favor Gro. Better card draw in the early game, coupled with more countermagic, helps out a ton. Engineered Explosives is also a bomb. Setting one to two leaves Slivers with creatures that decidedly do not match Mongoose.

I have played against a more aggro version of Slivers, but still without the cantrips and countermagic of Gro. This build (Budda at Batcave) was more focused on the fast critters backed with Force and StP, not fewer creatures and more cantrips. I won that match in two games.

[Volt]

When I play the matchup, I play against a more midgame-oriented build, running more land, Fact or Fiction, and either mainboard Worship or Essence Sliver. There are also two mainboard Scrabbling Claws (I know, extremely random...but they are strong vs. Iggy, Survival, and Gro, which sees a lot of play here. They also cycle.). The build also runs Mana Leak in addition to Force.

Yup. That sounds like Noah's build. If I'm not mistaken, he does not run very many (any?) cantrips. I think that hurts him in matchups against other blue-based aggro-control decks. Could you reproduce his decklist here? If you don't think he'd want you to, that's cool.



That match tends to favor Gro. Better card draw in the early game, coupled with more countermagic, helps out a ton. Engineered Explosives is also a bomb. Setting one to two leaves Slivers with creatures that decidedly do not match Mongoose.

I have played against a more aggro version of Slivers, but still without the cantrips and countermagic of Gro. This build (Budda at Batcave) was more focused on the fast critters backed with Force and StP, not fewer creatures and more cantrips. I won that match in two games.

I have not seen Budda's sliver deck. As a matter of fact, I haven't seen anyone besides Noah playing CS around here in quite a while.

Engineered Explosives is the one card in Gro (for those builds that run it) that CS really needs to fear. Again, though, this is a situation where Stifle shines.

[Pinder]

Engineered Explosives is the one card in Gro (for those builds that run it) that CS really needs to fear. Again, though, this is a situation where Stifle shines.

The same is true for Pernicious Deed. And WoG. And even Wildfire. Or Inferno. Or Crater Hellion. Basically any sort of non-targeted mass removal (outside of pyroclasm et al) is bad for us, because we have few ways to recover quickly and since we need 3-4 creatures on the table to be good. That's why we pack FoW, Daze, and most recently Counterspell to keep them from hitting the board, and 3 MD Stifle to help out when they do.

It also helps that mass removal is practically nonexistant in the format outside of Pyroclasm. If that changes, we'll have to adjust our gameplan.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Ive been building/playtesting and have made some observations.

The strongest aspects of the deck are the drawing and the slivers and they need to be emphasized. Running 8 draw and 16 slivers seems like the absolute minimum IMO if your going to have any kind of early game.

The deck is UWG but mostly UW. The mana base must be able to support blue and white mana at all times and provisions must be made to ensure you can overcome wasteland, et al. I run 18 land because the draw engine is relatively small(6-8 draw) and 17 wasnt cutting it.

Finally eledamri's call was too mana intensive to put the creature in your hand and play it on the same turn efficiently(assuming no aether vials). In its place i was usually looking for more draw or one more (any) sliver.

[Volt]

Ive been building/playtesting and have made some observations.

The strongest aspects of the deck are the drawing and the slivers and they need to be emphasized. Running 8 draw and 16 slivers seems like the absolute minimum IMO if your going to have any kind of early game.

The deck is UWG but mostly UW. The mana base must be able to support blue and white mana at all times and provisions must be made to ensure you can overcome wasteland, et al. I run 18 land because the draw engine is relatively small(6-8 draw) and 17 wasnt cutting it.

Finally eledamri's call was too mana intensive to put the creature in your hand and play it on the same turn efficiently(assuming no aether vials). In its place i was usually looking for more draw or one more (any) sliver.

I agree with you about the draw spells. My build differs from Mav & Pinder's in that I'm running a full 8 cantrips (4 Serum Visions + 4 Brainstorm).

I wouldn't blame you for upping the lands to 18, but I think 17 is okay. I've been doing a lot of playtesting against Vial Goblins with 4 Wasteland + 4 Rishadan Port, and winning 70%. If 17 land is enough against Gobbo, it should be enough period. Interestingly, I generally find the Ports more annoying than the Wastelands. The 8 cantrips helps smooth things out, though. My mana base is also slightly different from Mav & Pinder's. It looks like this:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

As you can see, there is a slightly greater stress on finding the islands and plains. Btw, the lone savannah is in there for the odd occasion when you have one basic island and you really want to fetch for a savannah. It happens.

Eladamri's Call is meant to be cast at opponent's EOT. That said, I could see cutting to just one, but I wouldn't cut it completely. You win many games by Calling for a Winged Sliver.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Eladamri's Call is meant to be cast at opponent's EOT. That said, I could see cutting to just one, but I wouldn't cut it completely. You win many games by Calling for a Winged Sliver.

Sorry, i meant to say that the call is a bad topdeck.

[xsockmonkeyx]

4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

As you can see, there is a slightly greater stress on finding the islands and plains. Btw, the lone savannah is in there for the odd occasion when you have one basic island and you really want to fetch for a savannah. It happens.



This is exactly my mana base -1 tundra.

The creatures I run are

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
1 Talon Sliver

and I have 2 Talon in my SB

I find the 16 maindeck is about the right amount of slivers. There is a critical mass of slivers you need to mount a decent campaign(~3) and there is also sliver overkill.

[Volt]

This is exactly my mana base -1 tundra.

The creatures I run are

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
1 Talon Sliver

and I have 2 Talon in my SB

I find the 16 maindeck is about the right amount of slivers. There is a critical mass of slivers you need to mount a decent campaign(~3) and there is also sliver overkill.

I think the Talon Slivers are more important early in the game, and the Winged Sliver is mainly for delivering the coup de grace later in the game.

Here's my complete decklist at the moment, which I'm going to run tomorrow night:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
2 Talon Sliver
1 Winged Sliver

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Counterspell
2 Eladamri's Call

I count the Calls as creatures, so that's 17 creatures. I could maybe see replacing one of the Calls with a Winged, but I'm going to leave it as is for now. After this weekend, I'll have a better idea of what tweaks need to be made.

[AngryTroll]

I will talk to him this week. I tried to replicate his list, but I can't do it. It adds up to 70 something...I know he added cards, but I do not know what he removed for them.

He plays the deck more as a traditional midgame aggro/control deck with emphasis on control, though. Fact or Fiction and Intuition are always there (either or), along with Brainstorms, Forces, and Leaks. His gameplan plays out a lot like Gros, but is decidedly slower. Turn one sliver, turn two sliver, then turn three start playing with other things. Unless I am against something aggroriffic (or random MUC), I play gro slower then that, focusing on cantrips on turn one and two. His version focuses on slivers the first few turns, then drawing a bunch of cards and countering things like Wrath.

One thing that is downright amazing in his build is a lone maindeck Eternal Dragon. Seriously. It plaincycles early, and in the late game it helps deal with Engineered Plague. I have seen him win games after two or three Wraths or double Engineered Plagues because he recurrs a dragon and wins from there. Random? Yes. Does it randomly completely win games? Far more often then you might think.

Eternal Dragon is a much slower choice then the Gro - creatures + slivers plan that is being focused on here, though.

[Pinder]

Maverick just got finished running our latest list today, and he should have a report up sometimte tomorrow (or at least before he dies). Ironically enough, he played the mirror (again!). He won this time, though (yay!), but apparently it was due to some severe lucksackery (aww...). We did manage to get the list of the other player, though, and that'll be up tomorrow as well. It's a lot like ours, with a few differences. Apparently he runs 12(!) cantrips (Brainstorm/Serum Visions/Sleight of Hand). More details on that tomorrow. I look forward to hearing from Volt about how he did with his list. Based on what I know (I wasn't actually there), here's a few suggestions:

Cut Eladamri's call for more cantrips (we need 4 each of Brainstorm and Visions). I know call is good, but all around card selection is better.This deck doesn't really need counterspell so much. Maybe boarded against control, but FoW and Daze usually do the trick just fine.
And we could probably use another Sliver in there somewhere. 16 sounds good.

[AngryTroll]

I take it back...I played with Volt tonight at Batcave, and Talon Sliver was very good. Shame on me. Expect info later tonight or tomorrow.

I would have thought Winged Sliver would be better then Talon Sliver, but Talon Sliver let him stabalize with only a few creatures in play sooner then Winged Sliver would have let him win.

[Volt]

Don (Angry Troll) and I carpooled up the Bat Cave in Vancouver, WA to play in the weekly Friday night Legacy tournament. On the way, we swung by Just For Fun to pick up the 4 Stifle + 4 Crystalline Sliver that I needed to complete my deck. We got to the Bat Cave with time to spare, so we played a couple of warmup games - he with his Gro deck, and me with Countersliver. I don't remember all the details, but I ended up winning both games. As Don mentioned in the previous post, Talon Sliver allowed me to own the ground. He tried to explode my dudes away once or twice, but I had the Stifle each time. Many werebears and enforcers were sent to the fields, and eventually my Slivers overwhelmed him.

When the tournament started, as luck would have it, Don and I ended up getting paired against each other in the first round. Don switched to his intended tournament deck, a Survival build with black splash for hand destruction. I lost 0-2, with both games going badly for me. I simply couldn't keep Survival off the table. I remember in the 2nd game, he played 3 (!) Survivals in the first 5 turns. I countered the first 2, but couldn't prevent the 3rd one from hitting the board. I had sided in Tormod's Crypt, Ray of Revelation, and Pithing Needle, but didn't draw them.

In the second round, I played against some guy named Guy. He was running a GW control deck with Treetop Village, Eternal Dragon, Krosan Tusker, and some other cylcing creatures. He was also running 4 Nev Disks + 4 Wraths, and sided in Rout (!). This was a tough match simply because of the buku Wrath effects. However, my counterspells and Stifles carried me to a 2-0 sweep. Stifle was big in this match, nullifying a couple of disks, and allowing me to win a close race in the 2nd game by stifling a Treetop Village activation so he couldn't block.

In the third and final round (there were only 9 people tonight; a poor showing), I played against ATS (yay, another Survival deck). In the first game he was able to get a Survival into play and quickly establish a Spore lock. He also got out 3 Tradewind Riders and started bouncing all my lands to my hand. I had a nice untargetable sliver army out, but couldn't force any damage through. If I could have gotten a Winged into play, I may have been able to win by decking him. Alas, my Slivers were groundbound, and he was able to fly over with his Tradewind Riders and peck away at my life total. How embarrassing. In the 2nd game, he again got out an early Survival, but I answered with Pithing Needle, then assembled a Sliver army and beat him down. In the third game, he yet again gets out the early Survival (4fucksake!), but I am able to Crypt away Squee, Anger, and Spore frog a couple turns later. It looked like I was in control, as I had a handful of cards, and he was in topdeck mode with no threats in play. Then he dropped Back to Basics (WTF!?) on me, leaving me with just one basic plains that I was able to use. If I had had any inkling he might side that in, I would have fetched more basic lands. Oh well, live and learn. Anyways, I then went 6 turns without drawing another land, and he was able to recover and gain the board advantage. I finally drew another land and then Ray of Revelation, but it was a turn too late. AARGH!

All in all, I am optimistic about the deck, despite the disappointing 1-2 finish. I think the first match with Don was just a bad matchup (he says he does well against Gro with that deck, too, so it makes sense that he would beat Countersliver). I felt like I should have won the third match, but just got sloppy and allowed my opponent to mise a victory.

I think I will replace one of the Calls with a Winged Sliver.

The counterspells may need to be replaced, as Pinder suggested. I'm going to leave them in for now, though. I have another Legacy tourney tomorrow (Saturday).

I like the Sleight of Hand suggestion. If I end up taking out the Counterspells, I may replace them with SoH.

I'm looking forward to Mav's report. I hope he fared better than I, although we shouldn't worry too much about win/loss results right now. I'm pretty sure there's a tier 1 or 1.5 deck in here. We just need to accumulate data and perfect our build. I'll have another tourney report tomorrow night.

[Maverick676]

So I took slivers to my local tournament I ended up going 2 and 2 but both loses were incredibly bad luck(ill elaborate later). Another guy that goes to the same tournament sometimes is working on counter silvers. So I have two different decklists to share with you.

Maverick's List

3 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island

4 Brainstorm
3 Serum Visions

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Chain of Vapor

4 Crystaline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
2 Talon Sliver
2 Winged Sliver

SB--------------
4 Meddling Mage
4 Pithing Needle
2 Null Rod
2 Armageddon
3 Tormod's Crypt

Other Guy's List

4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra

4 Brainstorm
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Serum Visions

2 Winged Sliver
4 Talon Sliver
4 Muslce Sliver
4 Crystaline Sliver

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Stifle

4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island

SB------------------
2 Worship
2 Tividar's Crusade
4 Meddling Mage
3 Armageddon
2 Naturalize
2 Pithing Needle

So before I get into the matchups lets take a look at some key deck differences:

first up Chain of Vapor, I run it the other list doesn't I think that the 4 swords 2 explosives is better than running 4 chain because you can run more cantrips and see swords more often which is often better since you bounce creatures 90% of the time anyway plus explosives can still ruin vial like the Chain of Vapor will, except the dont get it back. The only difference is that they dont get the vial back.

Second is the number of cantrips, I run 7 which seems to be too little, his list runs 12 which seems to be a few too much at times I think 10-11 might be the right number. As far as which cantrips to run it's pretty apparent after testing that Brainstorm>Serum Visions>Sleight of Hand (big surprise right?)

The Third difference that i would like to point out is the slivers themselves. Obviously Crystaline and Muscle are the cornerstones of the deck. Beyond them we have Winged, Talon, and Plated from all the testing I've done it seems that Talon>Winged>Plated(nice against pyroclasm but not much else). 4 Talon 2 Winged seems like a good way to round out the count, I'm going to test tommorow with a living wish board though as i think this could be fairly effect letting you run a couple of the more expensive slivers but not having to worry about topdecking them with 2 lands in play.

The one constand seems to be the counterbase. Force, Daze, and Stifle are the way to go stifle is Really Good only duress comes close to it as far as utility. Counterspell seems largely unnecessary Force and Daze get the job done and are extremely effective.

Manabase is pretty obvious but from further testing it has become apparent that having an island is critical so fetchland configuration is idealy 4 flooded strand, 1 Polluted Delta, 2 Windswept Heath this allows for additional fetching for the basic island.


Okay whew now that comparisions are done I will share my matchups:

Round One: Random type 2 UB aggro/control.

I completely demolished him first game but second and third I was completely manascrewed; Game two I used five fetches and still made every land drop till turn 10 ( yes that is 15 lands in total seriously not a joke ). Game Three I had the following opening Hand (Crystalline ,Muscle, Plated, Island, Brainstorm, Brainstorm, Force) wouldn't you keep that hand? 2 Brainstorm into exactly 0 Land, I saw that Island and A Plains the whole 18 or so turns of the game ( yes his deck "goldfishes" that slowy).

Round Two : Sliver Mirror Match.

Game one I topdecked on Crystalline after another and just overran him, it was a close game though early plow on a muscle before crystalline was dropped made all the difference. Game two we went to time I used swords and chain of vapor combat tricks to survive and win the match.

Round Three : White Weenie Equipment

Game one I demolished him by sheer brute strength, I forced his only relevent spell (wrath of god? maindecked in white weenie?!?) and plowed his mother
of runes GG. Game two I sided in 4 Mage 4 Needle and 2 Null rod LOL i almost felt bad for the guy he played only a mother of runes the whole game and i plowed his mom as soon as she hit the table.

Round Four : Burn (almost optimal, flame rift over chain lightning)

Won Game one on the back of a crystalline turn 2 and muscles turn 3 and 4.
lost games 2 and 3 by one turn and in both cases it was because he topdecked a fireblast just in time to kill me. Chill is definetly a sideboard consideration.

With these results I can tell that the deck is very solid and tends to only lose to horrific luck with the lands, seriously that 10 land game is gonna haunt my dreams for the rest of time: oohh you have a dark confidant yay (draw tundra), oooh you just resolved a hypnotic specter you go man (draw tropical island )........

In Conclusion with a bit of tweaking and possibly some kind of bomb sliver in the new set this deck definitely has Tier 1-1.5 potential.

Thanks to everyone for reading my long report hope it contains some useful information for you.

[Volt]

Thanks for the report, Mav. It sounds like we both had somewhat disappointing results last night. That 15-land game was pretty horrific. One of the things I like about this deck is that the mana draws are usually pretty consistent. Sometimes weird shit like that just happens, though. Btw, how did the other guy playing slivers do?

You might be right about the Counterspells not being necessary. I'm not quite convinced yet, though, so I'm going to keep them in my build for a while longer.

[adrieng]

why is nobody playing hibernation silver he is nearly the best silver it let you block kill opponent creature and return it to hand not to die
an other interesting silver is acidic silver here is my list
i don t see why aether vial isnt played this is a mustwith hibernation silver and all your silver cost two or three
2 underground sea
2 tropical island
2 volcanic island
3 tundra
3 city of brass
3 polluted delta
3 flooded strand

4 aether vial

4 hibernation silver
4 acidic silver
4 muscle silver
4 crystalline silver
3 winged silver or the new one
4 brainstorm
4 daze
4 swords to plownshare
4 force of will
3 pithing needle or stifle
i dont agree at all for playing chain of vapor it has really no utility
i ld play rather repeal which a lot better
again i ll say that you have to test hibernation silver i would prefer cutting crystalline silver than him

[Volt]

why is nobody playing hibernation silver he is nearly the best silver it let you block kill opponent creature and return it to hand not to die
an other interesting silver is acidic silver here is my list
i don t see why aether vial isnt played this is a mustwith hibernation silver and all your silver cost two or three

<snip>decklist</snip>

i dont agree at all for playing chain of vapor it has really no utility
i ld play rather repeal which a lot better
again i ll say that you have to test hibernation silver i would prefer cutting crystalline silver than him

Hibernation Sliver is good, but certainly not better than Crystalline. Crystalline Sliver is the best sliver, HANDS DOWN don't even bother. Besides, Talon Sliver typically lets you "block kill opponent creature" without having to spend two life to bounce a sliver back to your hand, and then 2 mana to cast it again. Also, I think adding a 4th color would put too much stress on the mana base. I think this can be compared to the discussion about whether or not UWG Gro should splash black for Dark Confidant.

Regarding Aether Vial, well... that has been discussed in this thread. Scroll up and read. There are proponents of Aether Vial, and I get asked about it by virtually everyone who sees my deck. Mav, Pinder, and I happen to agree that Aether Vial does not improve this deck. Yes, it will sometimes allow you to play some nifty tricks on your opponent. Sometimes it's about as useful as a nipple on your forehead. All in all, we would prefer to run more slivers/counters/cantrips in those slots.

[Pinder]

i plowed his mom as soon as she hit the table.

Sigged ;).

Oh, and I believe the other guy who ran Slivers (hell, his name is Woj, we'll call him that) went 2-2 as well, losing only to us, and a random Gobs matchup that sided anarchy. Seriously, wtf?

EDIT:


i dont agree at all for playing chain of vapor it has really no utility


Um....Chain of Vapor is the utility. Is he joking? I hope he's joking.

[Volt]

Oh, and I believe the other guy who ran Slivers (hell, his name is Woj, we'll call him that) went 2-2 as well, losing only to us, and a random Gobs matchup that sided anarchy. Seriously, wtf?

Didn't Mav say there was a recent rise in white weenie decks in your area? Anarchy out of the sideboard woud probably make sense for Goblins if that's the case.




Um....Chain of Vapor is the utility. Is he joking? I hope he's joking.

In any case, Chain of Vapor is way better than his suggested replacement of Repeal. Drawing a card is nice, but the whole point of CoV is tempo. Spending 2+ mana to bounce something is not going to give us tempo.

[Pinder]

Didn't Mav say there was a recent rise in white weenie decks in your area? Anarchy out of the sideboard woud probably make sense for Goblins if that's the case.


True. I guess it's something we'll have to watch out for. At any rate, Mav's description of his game with WW doesn't do it justice. Sure, he had 3 Meddling Mages, a Null Rod, and a Pithing Needle, but it was what they were naming that's important. Mages were on WoG, StP, and Disenchant, Needle was on Seal of Cleansing. It's honestly the most solid board position I've ever seen :laugh:.

I think Mav was right about the move to 10 cantrips. The full suite at 12 is a little much, but 10 seems like it would help a lot. I know that 4x Brainstorm is a given, but I'm wondering about the amounts on the other 2. Do we want to go with a 3/3 split, or 4/2. If we end up with 4/2, which one do you think we should run more of? I ask because I'm honestly stuck on the subject. Serum Visions is great in that it digs for 3, and lets you put stuff you don't want on the bottom. The only downside is that you have to draw the top card, which may not always be what you need. Sleight of Hand is great in that it lets you choose which of the top 2 cards you want, which gives you more options, but you have to put the other one on the bottom. I'm honestly not sure which I'd prefer more. Maybe 3/3 split is best for that reason. Opinions?

[Volt]

I think Mav was right about the move to 10 cantrips. The full suite at 12 is a little much, but 10 seems like it would help a lot. I know that 4x Brainstorm is a given, but I'm wondering about the amounts on the other 2. Do we want to go with a 3/3 split, or 4/2. If we end up with 4/2, which one do you think we should run more of? I ask because I'm honestly stuck on the subject. Serum Visions is great in that it digs for 3, and lets you put stuff you don't want on the bottom. The only downside is that you have to draw the top card, which may not always be what you need. Sleight of Hand is great in that it lets you choose which of the top 2 cards you want, which gives you more options, but you have to put the other one on the bottom. I'm honestly not sure which I'd prefer more. Maybe 3/3 split is best for that reason. Opinions?

I think Serum Visions is a smidge better, so I'd go with 4 SV + 2 SoH.

[Durahan]

I think Serum Visions is a smidge better, so I'd go with 4 SV + 2 SoH.

Yea I agree. I'd also go with 4 Serum Visions and 2 Sleight of Hand. I think digging for 3 is just that good.

[Pinder]

4 and 2 it is, then. Just so everyone is on the same page, the picture of the list I have at this point looks like this:

//Land
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
1 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Forest

//Dudes
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
2 Talon Sliver
2 Winged Sliver

//Spells
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Stifle/Chain of Vapor
2 Sleight of Hand
1 Eladamri's Call

I left in one Call because we still had a slot open, but this could easily be the third Sleight of Hand if we move to 11 cantrips, or we could bring the Stifle Count down to 3 and run 2 Chain of Vapor (or maybe just 1 maindeck Chain, who knows?). We could also throw in another land, I suppose. And we can always try to squeeze in Engineered Explosives somewhere. I think either running the third SoH or 2 MD EE are probably our two best options.

You'll notice that I gave Stifle and Chain the same slot. They're both really solid includes, but since upping the Sliver/Cantrip count, there's just not enough room to run both. The deck could probably run either with good results, but I've been talking with Volt, and I feel that Chain of Vapor could safely be moved to the sideboard. Most often we end up siding it out anyway, as siding anything non-Sliver in makes it worse, so I figure that we could put it in the board as an answer to problem enchantments and the like. On that same note, we've also been discussing Ray of Revelation in the board as well to deal with enchantments.

[Volt]

I went to the Mana Curve in Beaverton today to play in the weekly Saturday Legacy tournament. Ryan (DeathwingZERO) just opened up this shop a couple months ago, and has been making a real effort to support and grow the Legacy and Vintage formats. Mad props to him! The only other place in the Portland/Vancouver area to find a regular weekly Legacy tournament is the Bat Cave, which has been doing it for years. Unfortunately, driving up to Vancouver during Friday's rush hour can be a real pain for those of us living on the south end of Portland.

Lately, we've been drawing about 8 people for the Mana Curve tournament. Today, for whatever reasons, a couple of the regulars didn't show, so we only had 5 people. After waiting an extra half hour to see if anyone else would show, we decided to go ahead and play a 5-person round robin.

Here is the deck I played:

3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
2 Talon Sliver
2 Winged Sliver

4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Stifle
2 Counterspell
1 Eladamri's Call

sideboard:
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Seal of Cleansing
4 Meddling Mage
4 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Explosives


Here's the tourney report. I didn't take any notes, so this is all from memory.

Round 1: vs Joe with mono-red Vial Goblins

In the first game, I resolve a 2nd turn Crystalline, followed by a 3rd turn Muscle Sliver. He groans and says "that's pretty much the exact start I was afraid of." A few more slivers join the party soon after, and I swarm over his hapless goblins.

In the second game, I kept a reasonable opening hand, but proceeded to draw land after land after freaking land. I scooped on the 8th turn, having never missed a land drop, and with land still in my hand. Whatever.

In the third game, I once again immediately drew into a long, frustrating mana pocket, and Joe kept red-blasting my cantrips (he had sided in 4 Pyroblast + 4 REB). Finally, I top-decked an Engineered Explosives (sided in) and a Swords on consecutive turns. This was the board position... I had 2 Crystallines and a Plated in play. Joe had a Warchief, Gempalm Incinerator, Lackey, Fanatic, and Vial (with 3 counters) in play, and a couple cards in hand. I swung with the Plated just to see what Joe would do. He thought for a long time, then must have decided I was up to some sort of trick, and stack-blocked with his entire crew! I assigned combat damage to the Gempalm, and we put our slain creatures in our respective graveyards. I then played EE for 1, exploded his 1cc permanents, and then Swordsed his Warchief. Presto! I now had 2 Crystallines in play, and he had no permanents. Not surprisingly, the match turned around for me at that point, and I won easily.

Matches/Games: 1-0, 2-1


Round 2: vs Ryan with Solidarity

To be honest, this match almost seemed unfair. In the first game, I stifled a fetch land, and he got stuck on one land for a long time. I played out a couple slivers, then cautiously kept mana open while the slivers did their work. In the second game, I sided in the Meddling Mages. On the third turn, I Called for a Meddling Mage at his EOT, then played it the following turn, naming High Tide. That, combined with a fistful of Stifles and counterspells ensured an easy victory.

Matches/Games: 2-0, 4-1


Round 3: vs James with BR budget type 2 deck

He got me down to around 10 life each game, but this was an easy 2-0 sweep for me.

Matches/Games: 3-0, 6-1


Round 4: vs Derek with UWG Gro

Derek and I both knew this was going to be a long match, as it is basically a mirror matchup. Derek eventually gained the upperhand in the first game on the strength of two Meddling Mages naming Crystalline Sliver and Muscle Sliver. He got out a couple of thresh creatures that I couldn't handle, so I scooped.

In the second game, I sided in 3 Engineered Explosives and 4 Meddling Mages, siding out 4 Stifles (I was pretty sure he wasn't playing Engineered Explosives) and some other one-ofs. I should have sided in the Ray of Revelations, too, but somehow it didn't occur to me to worry about Worship. This game went a long, long time. I had an army of flying, first-striking slivers in play, while he had a Nimble Mongoose, a couple of werebears, and a Worship. Derek finally scooped with 7 cards left in his library when he realized he was going to be decked. Onto the third game.

I corrected my earlier error by siding in 2 Ray of Revelations. They turned out to be unnecessary. The early game consisted of us Swordsing each other's Mages, and casting cantrips, and countering each other's stuff. Eventually, we got to a position where he had a Mongoose and Worship in play, while I had a couple of flying slivers. He was pretty much in top-deck mode at that point, while I had an Explosives and counterspell in my hand. I raced him for a couple turns, then exploded his Mongoose and swung over for lethal damage. Finally, the long, grueling match was over! Our match took over an hour and a half to play. Ryan just let us play without time constraints, since we were essentially the finalists.

Final record: 4-0, 8-2


The reward for my sweet victory was $25 store credit. I took a Pithing Needle and 4 Sleight of Hands, and passed on the remaining $5 store credit to Joe, who had ended up in 2nd place.

Some closing thoughts about the deck... Obviously, it worked very well for me today. The Engineered Explosives were very big out of the sideboard, so they probably merit a couple of maindeck slots. Maybe they could go into the Counterspell slots, although the Counterspells seemed good to me. I did side them out against Goblins, but in every other match they were perfectly fine.

[MasterBlaster]

@Volt: Congrats on the win. So, this deck can handle Goblins, Solidarity, and Threshold? I think its about time to move it up to the open forum, since how it can handle the big 3 and the list is really solid.

[Pinder]

Thanks for the results, Volt! It's good that it finally beat Thresh at some point. I agree that EE was integral enough in this and came in often enough that 2 MD is sounding even better to me. I would take out the last call and the counterspells in your list for them. If not the Counterspells, we could always go down to 3 Stifles (you never really want to see them late game anyway) and take out the Call. Either way I'm not really sure that call is necessary, especially as a one-of.

Also, how do you think the deck did without Sleight of Hand? Perhaps 8 Cantrips is enough, giving us room for more hard counters :D.


In the second game, I kept a reasonable opening hand, but proceeded to draw land after land after freaking land. I scooped on the 8th turn, having never missed a land drop, and with land still in my hand. Whatever.

I don't know why we're having problems with mana flood. I assumed we'd have mana screw problems, not the other way around. That's seriously odd.


I think its about time to move it up to the open forum, since how it can handle the big 3 and the list is really solid.


I wouldn't mind it if our brainchild hit the Open Forum. I think it would mark the first time I've ever actually posted there :laugh:.

[Togit460]

Magnificent, i've been watching and testing this deck out all week and it's performing very well. I agree with the statement to move it to the open forum, this deck definetly isn't jank, it's got potential to be a serious contender in the format. peace, j.j.:smile:

[Volt]

@Volt: Congrats on the win. So, this deck can handle Goblins, Solidarity, and Threshold? I think its about time to move it up to the open forum, since how it can handle the big 3 and the list is really solid.

Fine by me. I've been saying for a few days now that I think this is a tier 1 deck, or pretty darn close. After all, it's basically Gro... except different. :smile:

Regarding the matchups, I would say with certainty that Goblins and Solidarity are decidedly positive matchups. The goblin matchup alone gives Countersliver an advantage over Gro (UGW), since Gro (UGW) is 45/55 against Goblins. Why is Countersliver so much better against Goblins? Because of Stifle and Plated Sliver (!).

The Countersliver vs. Gro matchup is certainly not far from 50-50 one way or the other. My feeling is that Gro is probably favored in the first game because of the maindeck Meddling Mages, while CS is favored after sideboarding.

I say all of the above with the disclaimer that I have not extensively play-tested this deck yet. I've done a fair amount of play-testing against mono-red Vial Goblins, and I know CS is favored about 2-1 in that particular matchup. The other matchups have only been play-tested a little bit, so results are not conclusive. Hell, I've been playing the deck for less than a week! :smile:

[xsockmonkeyx]

I don't know why we're having problems with mana flood. I assumed we'd have mana screw problems, not the other way around. That's seriously odd.





Statistical variance (bad luck) is probably to blame. If you play any deck long enough you will find streaks of mana flood and mana screw. Just ignore it.

[Volt]

If this thread does get moved to the Open forum, I nominate Counter-Sliver as a new name for the thread. Any objections, Pinder and Mav? This is your baby.

EDIT: btw, Pinder, you should update your original post

[Maverick676]

As much as Id like to give it some weird ass name that would anger everyone because it caused even more confusion to new people entering the format; I was thinking something like 5-color battlestax threshstill ATSlivers, isnt that clear enough?

Yah i think Counter-Slivers is the perfect name for the deck.

[AngryTroll]

As much as Id like to give it some weird ass name that would anger everyone because it caused even more confusion to new people entering the format; I was thinking something like 5-color battlestax threshstill ATSlivers, isnt that clear enough?

Yah i think Counter-Slivers is the perfect name for the deck.

Some version of that will end up quoted....

I think leaving Stifles in agaisnt threshold is important. Even without EE, they run anywhere from 6 to 8 or 9 fetchlands, and the manabase is not very solid as it is. If they Daze something, and you Stifle a fetchland, Gro is in serious trouble.

Volt is amazing at drawing land. He should play 2 land belcher...I am not even joking-he would draw both, every game. EVERY GAME. He could play one land belcher and five of his first six draws would be Land Grands and the Land.

Basically, this deck is Gro with a different creature base. Obvious, but important. That explains the similar matchups in most cases, but against Goblins, these creatures are just plain better, largely due to Crystalline Sliver and Plated Sliver. This is obvious, but it leads to the part about where to classify the deck-it is basically Gro (best deck in format, give or take one spot), with a "better" creature base. Whether this deck is objectively better depends a lot on metagame.

I am not saying this deck is better then gro. I do think it still needs more...polishing, and it certainly is not played in the numbers in which Gro is played. But I do think it has a lot of potential.

[Maverick676]

So ive been looking around for a better option than 2 sleight of hand. I was thinking commune with nature might show some promise in the deck? comments, objections, horrifically viscious flames for suggesting a champions jank card?

also mirri's guille might be good as a two of?

Mirri's Guille
G
at the beginning of your upkeep you may rearrange the order of the top 3 cards of you library.

BTW thought id share that i just got a foil plated sliver, and a foil swords for the deck:smile:

[Benie Bederios]

Nice deck, but this isn't Counter-Slivers. The base of the decks is the same( counters and slivers,) but Counter-Sliver used alot of black cards, and was based around Demonic Consultation. I think it should get a brand new name, the deck deserves it.

What about a new Sliver from Timespiral? I find it rubbish but maybe you guys like it.

Sedge Sliver
2R

All slivers have "this creature gets +1/+1 as long as you control a swamp" and "[B]: Regenerate this creature"

2/2

I think it it worse than Muscle Sliver, because the CC, but maybe it can replace Muscle Sliver.

[Eldariel]

Nice deck, but this isn't Counter-Slivers. The base of the decks is the same( counters and slivers,) but Counter-Sliver used alot of black cards, and was based around Demonic Consultation. I think it should get a brand new name, the deck deserves it.

What about a new Sliver from Timespiral? I find it rubbish but maybe you guys like it.

Sedge Sliver
2R

All slivers have "this creature gets +1/+1 as long as you control a swamp" and "[B]: Regenerate this creature"

2/2

I think it it worse than Muscle Sliver, because the CC, but maybe it can replace Muscle Sliver.

Replace? Slivers have always wanted to play with 20 Muscle Slivers. This lets you play 8 given the colours.

[Kadaj]

Sedge Sliver seems like it would be a no-go if not almost entirely because it's red, and it would require a total reworking of a mana-base that has been, seemingly anyway, very effective so far.

Beyond that I think this deck is obviously a competitive one, as it can match-up fairly well with the big three and probably carry these positive match-ups down into the lower tiers. Once an accepted list is found I think this could indeed move to open forum.

[xsockmonkeyx]

also mirri's guille might be good as a two of?

Mirri's Guille
G
at the beginning of your upkeep you may rearrange the order of the top 3 cards of you library.



Meh, I prefer Sylvan Library but I have somewhat of an old-school bias. I was going to suggest it earlier but I didnt think it would be necessary with the cantrips, etc. It works wonders with fetches and you can do a personal howling mine (for 4 life) against solidarity or some other deck where life doesnt matter much.

[Pinder]

EDIT: btw, Pinder, you should update your original post

Consider it done. I posted a sort of hybrid between the few most recent lists, as we haven't quite settled on the optimal list yet. All signs point to EE in the main, but I haven't tested that extensively. Is there anyone who can tell us how that is?


I think it should get a brand new name, the deck deserves it.


Basically, this deck is Gro with a different creature base.

On that note, I think we should call this deck Grover. Or for the presidentially inclined, 'Mr. Cleveland' :laugh:. I don't know, Counter-Sliver seems as good as anything, I suppose. Perhaps Counter-Sliver 2.0

On the topic of Sedge Sliver, it requires both black and red, which are the only colors we don't run. We can't support 5 colors on 17 lands, and I don't think we'd really want to go 5 color at this point anyway. UGW is the way to go.

[Volt]

Counter-Sliver 2k6? That's kinda boring, I guess. Actually, I liked Mav's suggestion of "Battlestax Threshstill ATSlivers." :laugh:

EDIT: I kinda like "Grover," too. :laugh:

I really think we should keep 4 Stifles in the list. They are really good. While they're better in some matchups than others, there is almost no matchup where they are outright bad. Also, I'm not sure the extra 2 cantrips (Sleight of Hands) are necessary. I've been perfectly happy with just the 8 so far. The Engineered Explosives are very nice, but I'm just not sure what to take out for them. I guess the lone Eladamri's Call is an easy target, but I really like EC in there. Again, don't think of it as a "one of." Think of it as wildcard sliver #17. Or use it as I did in one of my games against Solidarity yesterday; I fetched a Meddling Mage with it! You guys have indicated that maybe the 2x Counterspell aren't necessary, and it's possible you're right. I haven't play-tested that version. I just know that I haven't been unhappy with them in my build so far. It's a hard decision. This may just be a case of taking out something good to put in something better.

[Koby]

There is plenty to gain from playing a black splash. You get access to Hibernation Sliver (which is awesome in a pinch with FOW), and Duress against combo. This also gives you a way to trade with creatures while still keeping yours alive. It also adds more 2/2 slivers to the deck.

Something along the lines of:

18-20 Lands
including Gemstone Mine or City of Brass

+3 Hibernation Sliver
+1 Winged Sliver
-1 Plated Sliver
-2 TalonSliver

-4 Serum Visions
+3 Duress

[Volt]

There is plenty to gain from playing a black splash. You get access to Hibernation Sliver (which is awesome in a pinch with FOW), and Duress against combo. This also gives you a way to trade with creatures while still keeping yours alive. It also adds more 2/2 slivers to the deck.

Something along the lines of:

18-20 Lands
including Gemstone Mine or City of Brass

+3 Hibernation Sliver
+1 Winged Sliver
-1 Plated Sliver
-2 TalonSliver

-4 Serum Visions
+3 Duress


I am confident that adding black would not improve this deck. We already have a good game against combo (including Iggy Pop, I think), and the Talon Slivers enable us to block and kill opposing creatures without having to trade. Adding a fourth color would just make the mana base shakier. This has already been discussed. Finally, we run 25+ blue spells in the deck, so finding something to pitch to FoW is rarely a problem.

[Maverick676]

The black splash does not add anything to this deck sure you get duress, but ill take mage over duress against combo any day. Also hibernation sliver requires you to pay 2 life each sliver, this starts to add up between fetches and such plus you would need to make the deck 4 color giving it a shakier manabase than 4 color landstill (that has to be a record). As to cutting talon sliver for hibernation sliver umm LOL? so you want to be able to do combat tricks as opposed to having first strike and completing dominating the board with out fancy return to hand effects. I could see times where returning a sliver to your hand for force of will could be useful; It won't be very often and is not worth adding a fourth color.

This deck is UGW unless timespiral releases something truly broken. Crystaline and Muscle Sliver cannot be replaced and as such force you into UGW. This is not a casual tribal sliver deck that can fit everyones pet sliver into it, this deck is made to win games PERIOD.

[xsockmonkeyx]

This deck is UGW unless timespiral releases something truly broken. Crystaline and Muscle Sliver cannot be replaced and as such force you into UGW. This is not a casual tribal sliver deck that can fit everyones pet sliver into it, this deck is made to win games PERIOD.

Agreed. UWG is the only deck that is competetive with the current bunch of slivers and i doubt that anything will be released in Time Spiral that will change that. In order to warrent inclusion in the deck the "new sliver" would have to be 2cc or less and provide something better than +1/+1, flying and first strike OR be 3cc and provides something completely broken like "all slivers are indestructible". I really doubt they would print a card that falls under either of those pretenses.

That being said I think the energy of this thread should be devoted to improving the current UWG setup and not to suggesting new slivers.

Edit: I like the name "Threshstill ATSlivers BattleStax" because the acronym would be T(h).A.T.S. B.S. :)

[imran]

The deck looks very promising. I am by myself playing Sliver since a couple of years. And I have to say, I am nearly playing the same concept of Sliver, but with slightly cards.
I am playing Vial Slivers, together with more Winged and the Hibernation Sliver, for more combat Tricks, giving me more mana to play Mana Leak, while not loosing the speed to play Slivers. But this would become a completely different deck.

I have two main questions regarding the UGW Version:

1) Why do you play Plated Sliver? I understand, that having more toughness can be sometimes nice, but is it really necessary to have more toughness, than a better Sliver? This also pushes the deck more towards white, than is healthy for the deck. Furthermore, this should be an Aggro-Control Deck, so +1/0 should be always better than 0/+1.

2) Have you ever thought about playing Worship/Crystalline Sliver - Combo in this deck? It would allow to attack with Slivers, and just win by protecting the Worship?

3) Have you ever thought adding The Abyss? In combination with Crystalline Sliver, this is the bomb!

4) I am playing with 2 Slivers as one of. Essence Sliver and Shifting Sliver. The combination of Crystalline/Winged/Essence is always game, as long I can hold off the mass removal. Even racing with the Shifting is easier than with Winged. I would play a combination of Winged and Shifting like 2/1.

[kicks_422]

1) You don't need extra power in this deck, you need the extra toughness for your slivers to live to deal damage... also Plated Sliver>Goblin Lackey...

2) That's a good suggestion... A 2-of in the SB? Pushes the deck more to a Thresh deck with a "better" creature base, reminiscent of Nimble Mongoose + Worship... But why not, if it wins games?

3) As mentioned above, the deck is heavily favored to be UGW... Adding colors for "cool" effects aren't worth destabilizing your manabase... Though might be an SB card for a UBW version...

4) Keeping the deck's curve to a maximum of 2 allows us to run a low land count... The deck's plan is to be winning by the time you have the chance to drop a 4cc threat anyway, so IMHO they're not needed...

[Volt]

The deck looks very promising. I am by myself playing Sliver since a couple of years. And I have to say, I am nearly playing the same concept of Sliver, but with slightly cards.
I am playing Vial Slivers, together with more Winged and the Hibernation Sliver, for more combat Tricks, giving me more mana to play Mana Leak, while not loosing the speed to play Slivers. But this would become a completely different deck.

I have two main questions regarding the UGW Version:

1) Why do you play Plated Sliver? I understand, that having more toughness can be sometimes nice, but is it really necessary to have more toughness, than a better Sliver? This also pushes the deck more towards white, than is healthy for the deck. Furthermore, this should be an Aggro-Control Deck, so +1/0 should be always better than 0/+1.

2) Have you ever thought about playing Worship/Crystalline Sliver - Combo in this deck? It would allow to attack with Slivers, and just win by protecting the Worship?

3) Have you ever thought adding The Abyss? In combination with Crystalline Sliver, this is the bomb!

4) I am playing with 2 Slivers as one of. Essence Sliver and Shifting Sliver. The combination of Crystalline/Winged/Essence is always game, as long I can hold off the mass removal. Even racing with the Shifting is easier than with Winged. I would play a combination of Winged and Shifting like 2/1.


Hi, Imran. Let me answer your questions:

1. Plated Sliver is in here, because: 1) it's a 1-drop, 2) it stops Lackey and lives, 3) it keeps your team alive with an Engineered Plague on the board. Furthermore, any combination of 2 Plated/Muscle Slivers allows your team to survive Pyroclasm/Massacre. It is suprisingly good. While this is an aggro-control deck, against most other aggro and aggro-control decks, we are the "control" deck. We need to stabilize until we can get 3 or 4 slivers out, and then start swinging.

2. Of course Worship has been considered. The problem is that with our manabase, getting to 4 lands can often be a tricky proposition. Still, it is certainly worth consideration as a sideboard card. I'm not sure how necessary it is, though. Those sideboard slots might be better spent on other things.

3. The Abyss + Crystalline Sliver is a nifty combo, but again, it's not worth adding a 4th color to an already fragile manabase. The only reason the manabase works fairly well right now is because of the cantrips.

4. I think Shifting Sliver is strictly inferior to Winged Sliver, although I'll admit I haven't tested it. Essence Sliver is certainly tempting, but see above remarks about Worship.

[Maverick676]

In regards to worship, I can see it as maybe a two of in the SB since burn was a pain in the ass matchup for me, even though the guy still topdecked fireblast right when he needed it i could see the matchup was very close usually determined by who went first, since what you only need to buy is 1 turn however I think chill might be the correct choice or hell maybe COP: RED is the way to go. I plan on testing all three to see which one is the right answer.

As for the number of cantrips in the deck I'm starting to feel that 10 is too many It seems like I find myself cantriping into more cantrips more often than not. Brainstorm and Serum Visions seem like enough when I test without the sleight of hands. Which let me add 2 chain of vapor back in the list, but it could easily be something else, maybe victual sliver?

Also to all of you suggesting hibernation sliver, please stop we heard you the first time. Hibernation sliver is not in the colors, will cost you a ton of life and fills the same niche as talon sliver for blocking, the fact that he's a 2/2 is about the only thing that makes him even close to playable.

[Volt]

In regards to worship, I can see it as maybe a two of in the SB since burn was a pain in the ass matchup for me, even though the guy still topdecked fireblast right when he needed it i could see the matchup was very close usually determined by who went first, since what you only need to buy is 1 turn however I think chill might be the correct choice or hell maybe COP: RED is the way to go. I plan on testing all three to see which one is the right answer.

CoP: red is ass. Don't even bother with that. Chill or Hydroblast/B.E.B. is the way to go. I'd probably go with Chill, seeing as how it always annoys the piss out of me when I'm playing red.



As for the number of cantrips in the deck I'm starting to feel that 10 is too many It seems like I find myself cantriping into more cantrips more often than not. Brainstorm and Serum Visions seem like enough when I test without the sleight of hands. Which let me add 2 chain of vapor back in the list, but it could easily be something else, maybe victual sliver?

I agree with you about the cantrips. 4 Brainstorm + 4 Serum Visions seems just right, said Goldilocks. I think you would be well served to replace the Sleight of Hands with some sort of "answer" card.

I'm going to play in the 4x Force of Will tournament at the Mana Curve this weekend. There are going to be some really good players there playing some really good decks, so I'm interested to see how well I can do with this deck. Hopefully, most of my potential opponents aren't paying any attention to this thread. :cool:

[Maverick676]

For the burn matchup I'm starting to think that victual sliver may be the way to go, it's another 2/2 sliver which gives you an even faster clock, plus you can sac your weaker guys in that match i.e. talon and winged usaully for 4 life which will get that one extra turn needed to kill the burn player. Plus it can only help you against goblins. Meddling mage in the maindeck might be useful I'm not sure, combo matchups seem fine(with the exception of iggy-pop) so I don't know if mage is worth running over enginneered explosives in the main.

[Volt]

Some thoughts after a couple more nights of play-testing...

1. It might make sense to move the Stifles to the sideboard, and play 3-4 Pithing Needles maindeck instead. This will weaken the storm-based combo matchups a little, but strengthen a lot of other matchups. Even if you lose game 1 to combo, you should dominate after sideboarding (Meddling Mage + Stifle = some good).

2. The deck really wants 3x Talon Sliver + 2x Winged Sliver. I think we can cut a Plated Sliver to make room.

3. The deck runs pretty well on 17 land, but I often feel like I'm living on a knife's edge, especially when I'm playing against decks with Wasteland. I think 18 might be better. You can always side out a land in matchups where it's safe to do so.

4. I know I wavered on this issue yesterday, but I think we need to keep a couple of Counterspells in the maindeck. This deck goes to the late game fairly often, so it is a good idea to have some hard counters besides FoW. I hate getting to the late game and feeling naked because all I have in hand is a Stifle and a Daze.

[Maverick676]

I can defenitely agree that sometimes it's a nuisance to not have any hard counters, and it would probably be a good idea to add one or two. But I wouldn't go higher than that since having all of your counters be "free" is nice in that you don't have to leave mana open for counterspells instead you can just cast slivers and cantrips like a madman.

I'm not so sure it is a good idea to take stifles out of the main, remember they aren't there for combo matchups, although they do wreck them, stifle is there mainly against goblins. Stifle and swords can almost wreck them single handedly. We seem to keep cutting the cards that are good against gobbos and I'm concerned that the matchup will become less favorable.

As for needle in the mainboard, I'm not sure about your meta but I'm actually considering taking needle out of the sideboard and thowing it in a binder for awhile It seems like the only time I side it in is against random belcher decks or equipment based decks and in almost every situation null rod does a better job.

[Volt]

I can defenitely agree that sometimes it's a nuisance to not have any hard counters, and it would probably be a good idea to add one or two. But I wouldn't go higher than that since having all of your counters be "free" is nice in that you don't have to leave mana open for counterspells instead you can just cast slivers and cantrips like a madman.

I'm not so sure it is a good idea to take stifles out of the main, remember they aren't there for combo matchups, although they do wreck them, stifle is there mainly against goblins. Stifle and swords can almost wreck them single handedly. We seem to keep cutting the cards that are good against gobbos and I'm concerned that the matchup will become less favorable.

As for needle in the mainboard, I'm not sure about your meta but I'm actually considering taking needle out of the sideboard and thowing it in a binder for awhile It seems like the only time I side it in is against random belcher decks or equipment based decks and in almost every situation null rod does a better job.

Actually, Goblins is one of the matchups I had in mind. I think Needle is actually better against Goblins, if for no other reason than it shuts down Aether Vial. Stifle doesn't do that. It can also shut down Wasteland (often a very strong first turn play), Rishadan Port, Gempalm Incinerator, Siege-Gang Commander, and Kiki-Jiki. Honestly, I think Needle actually improves that matchup. And you can side in Stifle against Goblins, because it's awfully good, too.

[Pinder]

I'm finally back, after a weekend of moving and no internet :cry:.

After reading the discussion, I have the following thoughts:

@Worship in the main/SB: Yeah, I could see it happen. It's not in there right now because it's hard for us to hit our 4th land drop consitently, but it's pretty much a game winner if you can protect it once it hits the table. I could really go either way on this.

@Essence Sliver: See above about the mana issues, and I honestly think that it's too much of a win-more card. Sure, this card helps you flat out win, but if you can play it, chances are you were winning anyway.

@Hibernation Sliver: No.

@Switching Stifle and Needle: I'm not sure how I feel about this just because Stifle is so wonderful. It's not just there against Gobs and Combo, it's actually one of our best tools against Thresh's many fetchlands. Sure, you can needle fetches I suppose, but it's so much more fun to watch them cry when they pay the life, and still don't get the land :laugh:.

@Cutting a Plated Sliver for Talon/Winged: Yeah, we could probably get away with 3. We'll still see them often enough early game and you only really need 1 or 2 for them to do their job (defending against Pyroclasm/Infest/Massacre). And having first strike makes up for the lack of assfat that cutting a Plated Sliver might cause, because their dudes aren't going to be touching your guy's ass if they kill them first.

@More hard counters: They would be useful, sure, it's not like hard counters are bad. It's just finding room for them that's causing the biggest issues.

@Victual Sliver against burn: I still don't like Victual Sliver in this deck, because you have to sac your dudes. If his only purpose is to help against burn, sideboard Aegis of Honor. It makes burn decks cry. Or Chill, which you can pitch to Force.

And I'd still love to see EE make it in. It might not be worth it, who knows, but it's great against the mirror at 2. Blow it up, and then you both stall with your 1/6 Plated Slivers :laugh:. Seriously though, if you hold a few Slivers (1 Muscle and 1 Crystalline is usually enough) until after you pop the explosives, you can recover a lot faster than they do. And it kills Mongoose. And for that matter Lackey, and Aether Vial. That's the main reason I like it.

EDIT: Oh, and I'm still mad enough at Ted Knutson for the whole Truffle Shuffle/Thunder Bluff thing that I really want to call this deck 'Battlestax' now :laugh:.

[Maverick676]

Well maybe needles mainboard are the way to go, i hadn't even thought of some of the stuff you could name with gobs, Wasteland was all that came to mind although I never had much of a problem with them. Rishadan Ports are a bitch though, so is the vial.

As far as removing stifle, I'm not so sure. Needle would be nice but doesn't maindeck stifle add more to matchups overall? It wrecks combo and gobs and can really put the hurt on grow's manabase. I haven't tested with MD needles though so ill try them out and see how it goes before I make up my mind.

[Volt]

Well maybe needles mainboard are the way to go, i hadn't even thought of some of the stuff you could name with gobs, Wasteland was all that came to mind although I never had much of a problem with them. Rishadan Ports are a bitch though, so is the vial.

As far as removing stifle, I'm not so sure. Needle would be nice but doesn't maindeck stifle add more to matchups overall? It wrecks combo and gobs and can really put the hurt on grow's manabase. I haven't tested with MD needles though so ill try them out and see how it goes before I make up my mind.

Yeah, Aether Vial is the main reason Goblins can win against us a decent percentage of the time. If they get one, or God forbid, two vials out against us, they can really go to town, and a Stifle or two probably ain't gonna turn things around. On the other hand, one Pithing Needle naming Aether Vial suddenly makes their deck seem very slow, and you can simply counter the things that really need to be countered.

My feeling is that Stifle is better vs. storm-based combo, while Pithing Needle is better against pretty much everything else. There must be a reason why Gro runs the Needle instead of Stifle, right?

As I mentioned before, our game 1 strategy vs. Iggy Pop and Solidarity is weakened by the lack of Stifle, although we should still win a fair amount of the time with timely counterspells. After sideboarding, however, we should dominate both of those matchups.

As far as the Gro matchup, I think we are probably 45-55 in the first game, and then 55-45 after sideboarding. A lot of it depends on play skill.

I think we crush most random aggro. Straight-up Burn could be problematic. I think the best strategy is just to hope you don't run into it in the first round, because you probably won't run into it after that.

I haven't play-tested it, but I'm guessing Deadguy is pretty brutal for us. Hando followed by lando can really ruin our day.

[Pinder]

My feeling is that Stifle is better vs. storm-based combo, while Pithing Needle is better against pretty much everything else. There must be a reason why Gro runs the Needle instead of Stifle, right?


Sound reasoning FTW. I think that Volt is right. Stifle is great (really great), but Needle here seems like it hits a lot more of the playing field. A well timed Stifle can do wonders, but Needle is online all the time. Mostly, the only thing Stifle can handle that Needle can't is triggered abilities, and that really only comes up in the Gobs matchup in the form of Seige Gang and Ringleader, and in combo against Storm. So we can board them against Goblins and Combo, I suppose.

The only thing bad I see about Needle is that it draws hate. Lots of hate. I can't say much either way because I haven't tested it, but protecting Needle seems like it might be a bit of a chore. Stifle only hits once, but it's not a liability when it does.

But yeah, Needles seem like the better choice for the main, and moving them there creates just enough room for Stifle in the board (how nice).


I haven't play-tested it, but I'm guessing Deadguy is pretty brutal for us. Hando followed by lando can really ruin our day.

Oh yeah. That would be bad. But I'm thinking that it won't be too much worse than it is for Thresh, right? At any rate, it's not Tier 1, so if we're lucky we won't see it :wink:.

[Hanni]

One major benefit that Stifle has is tempo... if you Stifle an opponent's fetchland or Wasteland early game, the opponent loses that land and more than likely their play for the turn. You gain tempo advantage by having more lands in play (not always, but usually), as well as disrupt them etc etc. I'm not saying Stifle is a better choice than Pithing Needle in this deck, I'm just trying to disagree that Stifle is only better than Pithing Needle at Storm-based combo. You don't run Wasteland, so Pithing Needle is probably the correct play. However, Pithing Needle isn't pitchable to Force of Will, so that is something else to consider.

[Complete_Jank]

Stifle is sneaky, and Pithing Needle is not.

Many players still aren't thinking about Stifle main board.

Drop the surprise. Let a blue deck Brainstorm and then try and fetch only to have it get stifled, and then they draw the unwanted cards.

[Volt]

One major benefit that Stifle has is tempo... if you Stifle an opponent's fetchland or Wasteland early game, the opponent loses that land and more than likely their play for the turn. You gain tempo advantage by having more lands in play (not always, but usually), as well as disrupt them etc etc. I'm not saying Stifle is a better choice than Pithing Needle in this deck, I'm just trying to disagree that Stifle is only better than Pithing Needle at Storm-based combo. You don't run Wasteland, so Pithing Needle is probably the correct play. However, Pithing Needle isn't pitchable to Force of Will, so that is something else to consider.

All true. Both cards have merits. At the moment, I prefer the overall utility of Pithing Needle, but it's a close call.

The decklist I have in mind (which runs 3 Pithing Needle) has 24 blue spells. The previous decklists we've been discussing were running about 26 blue spells. I think 24 should be enough to generally ensure that I'll have something to pitch to a FoW.

[Volt]

Stifle is sneaky, and Pithing Needle is not.

Many players still aren't thinking about Stifle main board.

Drop the surprise. Let a blue deck Brainstorm and then try and fetch only to have it get stifled, and then they draw the unwanted cards.

Against the decks that run Brainstorm, I would definitely be siding in Stifle.

[Complete_Jank]

What do you do if a Chalice lands for 2?

I know that it is unlikely, but you have no answer, and lose to a Chalice of the Void for 2.

[Volt]

What do you do if a Chalice lands for 2?

I know that it is unlikely, but you have no answer, and lose to a Chalice of the Void for 2.

Trust me, we know. Chalice for 1 is annoying, but Chalice for 2 shuts us down. The answer is Engineered Explosives. I run 3 in my sideboard (and am seriously considering 4), and Mav and Pinder want to run some number of them in the maindeck.

[Complete_Jank]

Trust me, we know. Chalice for 1 is annoying, but Chalice for 2 shuts us down. The answer is Engineered Explosives. I run 3 in my sideboard (and am seriously considering 4), and Mav and Pinder want to run some number of them in the maindeck.

Ok, just was wondering if you knew that was a problem.

So Chalice 2 & Chalice 0, or Chalice 2 and Pithing Needle is game over probably 99% of the time.

I use to run a deck where you could cast Engineered Explosives for any amount 0-4 and add on Colorless if needed. Any thought of adding wasteland?

[Volt]

So Chalice 2 & Chalice 0, or Chalice 2 and Pithing Needle is game over probably 99% of the time.

Well, yeah. Hopefully, we would be able to counter at least one of those.



I use to run a deck where you could cast Engineered Explosives for any amount 0-4 and add on Colorless if needed. Any thought of adding wasteland?

Spending colorless mana for an EE with 0 counters to get around Chalice 0 is a cute trick. Unfortunately, there is no room in this deck for Wastelands.

[Complete_Jank]

Well, yeah. Hopefully, we would be able to counter at least one of those.

I would hope so, but most of the decks that would run that stuff would probably be running hand disruption.

I like this deck a lot, just as long as you don't see the following cards with out counters against you: Chalice, E. Explosives, or Deed.

[Pinder]

I like this deck a lot, just as long as you don't see the following cards with out counters against you: Chalice, E. Explosives, or Deed.

Well, with a Chalice for 2 and a Chalice for 0, we could always go with the returning favorite: Chain of Vapor! If they get a Chalice for 0, 1, and 2, though, we're pretty screwed :laugh:. Let's just hope that by the time they resolve that (if they even do), we'll already have Slivers on the table :tongue:.

And against EE and Deed, we have Needle/Stifle in the main, and Needle/Stifle in the board. I'm not particularly worried about those two.

And spending colorless on EE to get around Chalice is genius. I just wish we had room enough for it in our manabase.

And I agree that Stifle's surprise factor is a definite factor, and one I hadn't really considered. It's much more fun to have someone pop a fetch, deed, or explosives, etc. and then not get their stuff. With needle, they can just hold it until they kill your needle. That's definitely something to consider.

[kicks_422]

So Chalice 2 & Chalice 0, or Chalice 2 and Pithing Needle is game over probably 99% of the time.

I would hope so, but most of the decks that would run that stuff would probably be running hand disruption.

I like this deck a lot, just as long as you don't see the following cards with out counters against you: Chalice, E. Explosives, or Deed.

What deck runs Chalice, Pithing Needle, and hand disruption?... I'm thinking only that 5/3 deck with a black splash... But that's not widely played, right?...

And, on a sidenote... When you successfully cast all those things, a lot of decks would have a hard time... It's not the deck's weakness, those cards are tried and tested answers for the game of Magic in general... And that's why the deck is COUNTERsliver, to hopefully be able to counter at least one of those...

[Complete_Jank]

What deck runs Chalice, Pithing Needle, and hand disruption?... I'm thinking only that 5/3 deck with a black splash... But that's not widely played, right?...


You are right, there are few builds that run something of the sort, however they are out there, and an unlucky pairing against a rogue deck could hand you a Match loss.

I am not saying it is likely, but just saying what you need to watch out for.

[Tacosnape]

What deck runs Chalice, Pithing Needle, and hand disruption?... I'm thinking only that 5/3 deck with a black splash... But that's not widely played, right?...

And, on a sidenote... When you successfully cast all those things, a lot of decks would have a hard time... It's not the deck's weakness, those cards are tried and tested answers for the game of Magic in general... And that's why the deck is COUNTERsliver, to hopefully be able to counter at least one of those...

QFT.

Almost nothing runs Chalice and Hand Disruption, short of the Deadguy Ale variant with Chrome Mox, Hymn, and Verdict.

Almost nothing runs Chalice and Pithing Needle, and most that run both run one in sideboard and the other main and almost never bring them in at the same time (Unless facing something horribly random like Belcher where Chalice for 0 is a solid play)

Combine all that with the fact that the deck runs blue and, what do you know, problem solved.

[Complete_Jank]

QFT.

Almost nothing runs Chalice and Hand Disruption, short of the Deadguy Ale variant with Chrome Mox, Hymn, and Verdict.

Almost nothing runs Chalice and Pithing Needle, and most that run both run one in sideboard and the other main and almost never bring them in at the same time (Unless facing something horribly random like Belcher where Chalice for 0 is a solid play)

Combine all that with the fact that the deck runs blue and, what do you know, problem solved.

I beg to differ, as I have played a deck that did in the past, it is was a very strong deck at that. This is why I brought the attention to that fact of weakness.

However, like I said, it is very unlikely that you'll ever see any deck like that, which is playing all of those cards, so you can pretty much assume you'll never see that situation.

[Lego]

I haven't play-tested it, but I'm guessing Deadguy is pretty brutal for us. Hando followed by lando can really ruin our day.

Deadguy loses to resolved creatures. Just saying.


an unlucky pairing against a rogue deck could hand you a Match loss

This is true for every deck in the format. Just shrug and hope you don't face your worst matchup.

[Phantom]

The only deck that you need to worry about with the Chalice and Needle situation is FS. Still, this deck is much more resilient to chalice than Thresh, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

I might try to explore the mana denial strategy a little more as I think this decks biggest weakness is expensive sweepers. I've been dying to try out Shadow of Doubt in a deck. It works great with Daze and combined with Stifle can just plain win games. Plus it's really never dead as it can just be cycled EOT.

//Land
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
3 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

//Creatures
4 Crystaline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
1 Winged Sliver
2 Talon Sliver


//Spells
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Shadow of Doubt
3 Serum Visions
4 Stifle
1 Engineered Explosives.


//Sideboard
4 Meddling Mages
4 Pithing Needle
3 Armageddon
2 Disenchant
2 Worship


I'd like to fit Wasteland in there too. Maybe -1 Plated, -1 Shadow of Doubt, -2 Lands, +4 Wasteland.

Also, I think there needs to be some solid Goblin hate in the board. Propagana/Ghostly Prison could work well with the mana denial.

[Complete_Jank]

The only deck that you need to worry about with the Chalice and Needle situation is FS. Still, this deck is much more resilient to chalice than Thresh, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

I might try to explore the mana denial strategy a little more as I think this decks biggest weakness is expensive sweepers. I've been dying to try out Shadow of Doubt in a deck. It works great with Daze and combined with Stifle can just plain win games. Plus it's really never dead as it can just be cycled EOT.

...

Also, I think there needs to be some solid Goblin hate in the board. Propagana/Ghostly Prison could work well with the mana denial.

Thresh is more resilient as it has more diverse casting cost creatures at 1,2, & 4

Sweepers will be a problem, only if no stifle is in hand or no counter.

Talon Sliver is quite the answer for Goblins, unless they get a very good hand and then you're dead.

[Phantom]

Thresh is more resilient as it has more diverse casting cost creatures at 1,2, & 4

Creatures aren't really the issue for Threshold. They need access to their dig and removal. Also, they need to get to Threshold which is difficult for them with a Chalice @1. Chalice @1 brings them down to 4 Werebears, 3 Mages, and an Enforcer. Almost any deck can deal with that, especially if they can't dig for removal or reach Threshold. As a FS player, I've tested this a ton, Thresh loses with Chalice out.


Sweepers will be a problem, only if no stifle is in hand or no counter.

Talon Sliver is quite the answer for Goblins, unless they get a very good hand and then you're dead.

While both points are correct, having an answer to something doesn't mean that it isn't a problem. Talon Sliver is no kind of answer to Goblins. It's a creature for the love of god and they run uncounterable removal. Every deck is going to want a sideboard card that helps against Goblins since it's probably the most played deck in Legacy (unless the matchup is like 75/25).

[Maverick676]

Our matchup against gobs is 75/25 if you have bothered to read the rest of the thread you would know that.

Yes chalice for 2 is usually gg but thats 4 mana and usually we will have a counter ready by then.

As for running shadow of doubht, Im sure it would be a cute trick but I don't think this would really add much to the deck, I'd almost always rather have a counterspell.

And one more thing: THIS MANABASE CANNOT SUPPORT WASTELANDS. If you've played magic for more than 10 minutes you should be able to see that.

[kicks_422]

I am not saying it is likely, but just saying what you need to watch out for.

Heck, any deck would have to watch out for that... So why make it such a significant weakness of the deck?


Talon Sliver is no kind of answer to Goblins. It's a creature for the love of god and they run uncounterable removal.

That's why we run a certain Sliver to prevent them from targeting our precious meat-hooks, correct?

EDIT: I thought about it, and figured it's a good name... From now on I'm going to call this deck Meat-Hooks... :tongue:

[Phantom]

And one more thing: THIS MANABASE CANNOT SUPPORT WASTELANDS. If you've played magic for more than 10 minutes you should be able to see that.

Well, I appreciate the flame and all, but if you read my post, I was only cutting two duals for 4 wastes. If that doesn't work, I'll put the two duals back and cut two more business spells. The fact is that ANY deck can support wasteland. You simply build a mana base that works and add four wasteland.

[Volt]

Well, I appreciate the flame and all, but if you read my post, I was only cutting two duals for 4 wastes. If that doesn't work, I'll put the two duals back and cut two more business spells. The fact is that ANY deck can support wasteland. You simply build a mana base that works and add four wasteland.

Quick, somebody go to the Solidarity thread and tell them that their deck can support 4 Wasteland!

Go ahead and cram 4 Wastelands into your decklist if you want, my man. Whatever you take out will be more important than the Wastelands, though.

[Phantom]

Christ, I've never gotten so much flak for such a modest proposal. Helmut Summersberger could have used guys like you. "Das Threshold can night supporten das Wasteland!"

It's not like I just looked at the list, said "Oh, this is 3 color Zoo" and said "Add Wasteland you n00bs". I'm not even sure if wasteland is a good fit here, but I based the suggestion of the opening post. You say that the Goblin and Solidarity matchups are very favorable, and I have no reason to doubt you. So basically ever other deck in the meta is succeptable to Wasteland (even the mono colored stompy's w/ Citys and Tombs). So why not try it? Or hell, I'm not even asking you to try it, I'm saying that I'm going to try it. If I can manage to keep the Goblins and Solidarity matchups up while improving other matchups, then it's win-win. If not, no biggie.

[Volt]

So, as I see it, the core of the deck is this:

17 lands

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
3 Plated Sliver
3 Talon Sliver
2 Winged Sliver

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Force of Will
3 Daze

8 ???

The 8 leftover slots could be filled with any combination of the following:
land #18
Plated Sliver #4
Daze #4
Counterspell (2-3)
Eladamri's Call (1-2)
Engineered Explosives (1-2)
Stifle (2-4)
Pithing Needle (2-4)
Meddling Mage (2-4)
Chain of Vapor (2-4)

Did I miss anything? Any disagreements?

Personally, I'm favoring the following inclusions:
1 additional land
2 Counterspell
1 Eladamri's Call
4 Stifle / Pithing Needle (I'm on the fence)

[Volt]

Christ, I've never gotten so much flak for such a modest proposal. Helmut Summersberger could have used guys like you. "Das Threshold can night supporten das Wasteland!"

Okay, we gave you a little flack, but I don't think there's any Flame of the Year material here. Relax. Sorry for giving you a hard time. I'm still saying Nein! to the Wastelands, though. :tongue:

[Maverick676]

As far as adding wasteland, It would be great if the manabase could support but mana is usually pretty tight in this deck as is. Adding colorless lands would cause problems. If you want to test it go right ahead and if it works then that would improve the threshold matchup significantly. But like volt said you would most likely be cutting something even more important. Stifle tends to play this role against certain decks such as thresh, by stifling their fetchlands.

Apologies for being rude but when you come into a thread and start suggesting random cards (Shadow of Doubt? WTF) it is very annoying as we are trying to make a serious effort to develop a competive deck and you sound like you haven't even bothered to read the discussion, As evidenced by the fact that you suggest sideboard cards against gobs when we have a great goblins matchup already.

And one more thing talon sliver is a great answer to gobs, they run TARGETED removal, read crystaline sliver. One of the strengths of this deck is that it makes targeted removal dead cards in a deck, As you should never be dropping anything before crystalline sliver except in certain situations such as first turn plated sliver to block lackey ect.

Everyone's input is always welcome as long as it is productive in developing the deck. But just posting suggestions based on guesses without having ever tested the deck or even read the discussion is counterproductive and simply clutters up the thread.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Did I miss anything? Any disagreements?



Chain of Vapor in the left over slots. Everything else looks solid.

[Tosh]

Chain of Vapor in the left over slots. Everything else looks solid.
I think that it was decided that although Chain of Vapor was great in combination with crystalline sliver, it did not match up against other things such as cantrips. This is because even though it is great for getting things off the board and is one sided, they get to play it again: which is bad. I belive the Engineered Explosives replaced chain of vapor in the area of helping board position.

[Maverick676]

I think that it was decided that although Chain of Vapor was great in combination with crystalline sliver, it did not match up against other things such as cantrips. This is because even though it is great for getting things off the board and is one sided, they get to play it again: which is bad. I belive the Engineered Explosives replaced chain of vapor in the area of helping board position.

Yes, the current list now runs engineered explosives instead. Chain of Vapor is still a strong card for the deck, so either have their merrits. One thing i still like about chain is that it answers chalice without being vulnerable to pithing needle. I think the choice whether to run chain or explosives will depend on the metagame, if you see alot of reanimator or faerie stompy (bouncing sea drake would be absolutely hillarious) then chain might actually be a better choice for the maindeck. Chain can also deal with worship which Explosives cannot.

[Cavius The Great]

Christ, I've never gotten so much flak for such a modest proposal. Helmut Summersberger could have used guys like you. "Das Threshold can night supporten das Wasteland!"

It's not like I just looked at the list, said "Oh, this is 3 color Zoo" and said "Add Wasteland you n00bs". I'm not even sure if wasteland is a good fit here, but I based the suggestion of the opening post. You say that the Goblin and Solidarity matchups are very favorable, and I have no reason to doubt you. So basically ever other deck in the meta is succeptable to Wasteland (even the mono colored stompy's w/ Citys and Tombs). So why not try it? Or hell, I'm not even asking you to try it, I'm saying that I'm going to try it. If I can manage to keep the Goblins and Solidarity matchups up while improving other matchups, then it's win-win. If not, no biggie.

I actually agree with Phantom. Any aggro deck should atleast consider Wasteland. But a deck with 17 lands and 3 colors it's not concievable to include them in the deck. Running Tithe and Wasteland in a sort of white weenie approach is maybe something to consider though.

[Volt]

I actually agree with Phantom. Any aggro deck should atleast consider Wasteland. But a deck with 17 lands and 3 colors it's not concievable to include them in the deck. Running Tithe and Wasteland in a sort of white weenie approach is maybe something to consider though.

This isn't aggro. It's aggro-control. Furthermore, it's slower than some other aggro-control decks, such as Gro. Well, usually it is. Sometimes you get the crazy sliver draw and run them over.

I have actually considered Tithe. It's tempting, but I can't figure out how to fit it in.

[Maverick676]

I really don't think something like tithe is nescessary in this deck. We really only need 2 or 3 lands to win in fact the deck can run effectively with only a tundra and a tropical island out thanks to all the free counters. The land thinning would be nice, but it shouldn't be neccesary as we only have 17 land with 6 of them being fetches.

Yes this deck is aggro-control. It plays alot like thresh except that it has more staying power, thresh doesn't like to go to lategame because it just can't get any card advantage. Slivers however can stand up to basically every creature in the format lategame and the only concern becomes a board sweeper. Not that the game should go that long since once you stabilize you should have 16+ power on the board and end the game in 1-2 turns.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Tithe might be good SB. However Id rather see those slots devoted to something other than fighting LD. The goblins matchup is already favorable so I think tithe would be unecessary.

Do we have any more matchup results for this deck yet? Those would be nice for deciding the SB direction.

EDIT: the opening post has sleight of hand in the MD, maybe that should be included under "other cards" too

[Volt]

Tithe might be good SB. However Id rather see those slots devoted to something other than fighting LD. The goblins matchup is already favorable so I think tithe would be unecessary.

Do we have any official matchup results for this deck yet? That might be key in deciding the SB direction.


It's still too soon to have definitive matchup analyses. I can give rough numbers, but take them with a grain of salt:

Vial Goblins: 60-40
I think we've been overestimating our Goblins matchup to this point in this thread. Still, it's a considerably better matchup for us than it is for UGW Gro. If Gobbos gets out an early Vial, and are smart enough to play around Daze, they can win a decent percentage of the time. Wasteland and Rishadan Port can be problematic for us, as well.

Solidarity: 80-20 (assuming 3-4 maindeck Stifles)
They might steal game 1, but after sideboarding it's almost impossible for them to win.

Iggy Pop: 70-30 (again assuming 3-4 maindeck Stifles)
A similar matchup to Solidarity, but they can go off sooner.

UGW Gro: 50-50
Gro has no way to get rid of your slivers other than Engineered Explosives, which can be countered or Stifled. You'll generally want to counter an early Meddling Mage, as they can be annoying. As I've said before, I think Gro is favored slightly in the first game, and we're favored slightly in games 2-3. Time can become an issue in this matchup.

[Maverick676]

from my testing the goblin matchup is still closer to 70/30 (this is with 4 stifles main.) I've found that all you have to do is stifle ringleader and swords piledriver and your slivers can mop up the rest. Losses usually come from early lackey conecting into ringleader/seige-gang or retarded 3+ ringleader draws or something like that. Also if they are stupid enough to play a pyromancer you can really punish them for it.

[Hanni]

Just adding a little bit to consider, but Serum Visions provides superior dig compared with Sleight of Hand. I realize that it is sorcery speed, which is probably the main reason that you chose SoH over it... but I don't think that should really matter since it's 1cc cantrip and the only thing it may prevent you from doing is staying untapped early game to play a Counterspell. Just my two cents... it's something to consider.

EDIT:

Nevermind, I was under the impression that you were running only 4 Brainstorm and 4 SoH, but then I went and double checked the original post and I notice you have 4 Brainstorm, 4 Serum Visions, and 2 SoH. My apologies. Have you tested Portent in SoH's place?

[Volt]

Just adding a little bit to consider, but Serum Visions provides superior dig compared with Sleight of Hand. I realize that it is sorcery speed, which is probably the main reason that you chose SoH over it... but I don't think that should really matter since it's 1cc cantrip and the only thing it may prevent you from doing is staying untapped early game to play a Counterspell. Just my two cents... it's something to consider.

EDIT:

Nevermind, I was under the impression that you were running only 4 Brainstorm and 4 SoH, but then I went and double checked the original post and I notice you have 4 Brainstorm, 4 Serum Visions, and 2 SoH. My apologies. Have you tested Portent in SoH's place?

That list in the first post is a bit out of date. I think Mav, Pinder, and I have since come to agree that 8 cantrips is enough, and that 10 might actually be a bit of overkill. Brainstorm & Serum Visions are the best 8.

[xsockmonkeyx]

That list in the first post is a bit out of date. I think Mav, Pinder, and I have since come to agree that 8 cantrips is enough, and that 10 might actually be a bit of overkill. Brainstorm & Serum Visions are the best 8.

[xsockmonkeyx]

That list in the first post is a bit out of date. I think Mav, Pinder, and I have since come to agree that 8 cantrips is enough, and that 10 might actually be a bit of overkill. Brainstorm & Serum Visions are the best 8.

What is the current list?

[Maverick676]

Here's the current list, Ill have pinder update the main list.

4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle

4 Swords to Ploshares
2 Engineered Explosives

4 Crystaline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Talon Sliver*
2 Winged Sliver*

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions

*note Volt's list is still running call which changes how many talon and wings he is running.

So yes we are down to 8 cantrips which seems to be enough.

In regards to portent, I prefer Sleight over it almost always due to the non-imediate card draw. portent is a great first turn cantrip but a horrible topdeck.

My exclusion of counterspell/call from the list is simply because I did not run them at my last tournament last week, this list is the most recent one that I am testing with. I'm still trying to figure out how to fit in the two counterspells as they can really help the deck deal with mass removal late game, Although force can play that role too. If only daze were a hard counter *sigh*

[Cavius The Great]

This isn't aggro. It's aggro-control. Furthermore, it's slower than some other aggro-control decks, such as Gro. Well, usually it is. Sometimes you get the crazy sliver draw and run them over.

I have actually considered Tithe. It's tempting, but I can't figure out how to fit it in.

Just cut Serum Visions/Sleight of Hand. This is a Sliver deck, not Threshold. :tongue:

[Complete_Jank]

Creatures aren't really the issue for Threshold. They need access to their dig and removal. Also, they need to get to Threshold which is difficult for them with a Chalice @1. Chalice @1 brings them down to 4 Werebears, 3 Mages, and an Enforcer. Almost any deck can deal with that, especially if they can't dig for removal or reach Threshold. As a FS player, I've tested this a ton, Thresh loses with Chalice out.



While both points are correct, having an answer to something doesn't mean that it isn't a problem. Talon Sliver is no kind of answer to Goblins. It's a creature for the love of god and they run uncounterable removal. Every deck is going to want a sideboard card that helps against Goblins since it's probably the most played deck in Legacy (unless the matchup is like 75/25).

I do agree on the Thresh losing to Chalice @1, it is a game plan for the decks I have that run Chalice, however they can still win.

Talon Sliver is an answer to goblins, and they don't have uncounterable removal, as this deck runs stifle and untagetability. (SP?)

[Maverick676]

Cutting serum visions is not an option, brainstorm and serum visions are your draw engine*, yes this deck is not thresh but it plays much the same way. The main difference is that you don't really on the graveyard.

*while serum visions and brainstorm do not provide card advantage, they provide enough card selection to be called a draw engine

[Volt]

For comparison with Mav's list, here is mine:

4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
3 Plated Sliver
3 Talon Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
1 Eladamri's Call

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell

Sideboard:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Disenchant
2 Seal of Cleansing

I run an extra land, a single Eladamri's Call, and Counterspells instead of EE in the maindeck. The sideboard changes from hour to hour. :rolleyes:

[Pinder]

The list has been updated, and Volt's list is up there too, now. Volt, if you have any changes, let me know and I'll make them as soon as possible.


Talon Sliver is an answer to goblins, and they don't have uncounterable removal, as this deck runs stifle and untagetability. (SP?)

QFT. Our Goblin matchup is ridiculous. It's probably this deck's strongest quality.

And we need a lot more data before we have some official matchups. If anyone wants to grab the list and test it, or take it to a tourney, be my guest. The only one I've tested extensively is Goblins, to be honest. Volt would have a much better idea of these than either myself or Mav, I think.

[Volt]

Iggy Pop:40/60 for them. Not really pretty the first game, as they just ignore your creatures, play defense grid, and go to town. You can still pull a win out if you counter the important stuff, and Stifle helps. Chain of Vapor is great against a turn 0 Leyline, though. Postboard, you bring in Meddling Mages, and Armageddon, and the matchup improves by a little. Still tough, though. Note: I haven't done much more testing since the original list, so I don't know if the new list fares any better or worse


Iggy Pop doesn't typically run Defense Grid maindeck. If it did, then yeah, we would have a tough time winning game 1. As it is, I think we're no worse than 50/50 to win game 1. After siding in Meddling Mage, I think the matchup swings solidly to our favor. I did have a chance to do a bit of play-testing vs. Iggy Pop this weekend. DeathwingZERO was piloting Iggy Pop, and he definitely knows how to play the deck. We didn't get in enough games for me to state anything conclusively, but I did come away with the sense that it is a favorable matchup for us.

EDIT: One other thing... While Armageddon is effective against Solidarity, I don't think it helps all that much against Iggy Pop.

[Maverick676]

For our iggy-pop testing we were using the top 8 list from gencon with the maindeck defense grids and thats why the matchup is so bad. without the defense grids your probably right that it's closer to 50/50, if not better considering stifle. In fact without defense grid the only way they could hope to win is make a leyline stick before using Ill-Gotten Gains, or just win first turn.

[Volt]

For our iggy-pop testing we were using the top 8 list from gencon with the maindeck defense grids and thats why the matchup is so bad. without the defense grids your probably right that it's closer to 50/50, if not better considering stifle. In fact without defense grid the only way they could hope to win is make a leyline stick before using Ill-Gotten Gains, or just win first turn.

Well, if that GenCon build becomes the standard, then I guess Iggy Pop will be a more problematic matchup for us. I still think we're favored after sideboarding, though.

[Pinder]

Between the maindeck Stifles and Mages in the board, both Solidarity and Iggy Pop should be more than in our favor post-board. And Volt is probably right about Armageddons being worse against Iggy Pop than they are against Solidarity. I can see these coming out of the board for 2 Null Rod and 1 Worship, possibly. All I can say is that if you can keep a Null Rod on the table, Iggy Pop rolls over and dies because they can't use LED or Lotus Petal.

[quicksilver]

All I can say is that if you can keep a Null Rod on the table, Iggy Pop rolls over and dies because they can't use LED or Lotus Petal.

Iggy pop can still completly set up the loop and go off just with cabal ritual. It hurts them but far from makes them roll over and die, not to mention they have bounce for the null rod and about a billion tutors for it.

[Pinder]

Meh. Stupid Cabal Ritual. At any rate, quicksilver is right, I was getting a little too hopeful. As far as bounce is concerned though, we have counterspells, you know.

[Volt]

Iggy pop can still completly set up the loop and go off just with cabal ritual. It hurts them but far from makes them roll over and die, not to mention they have bounce for the null rod and about a billion tutors for it.

Null Rod by itself isn't going to win the matchup, but if I had them in the sideboard anyway, I would definitely side them in against Iggy Pop. They're pretty damn good in other matchups, too. Faerie Stompy and Affinity come to mind. I can see Null Rod being an excellent sideboard choice in some metagames.

[Maverick676]

Actually I'm running 4 null rod over pithing needle at this point in the SB since everything I needle is almost always an artifact. Plus It and mages own the white weenie equipment decks that plague my area.

[kicks_422]

I actually had a build of CounterSliver even before this thread started, but it had cards like Vial, Quick Sliver and Mishra's Factory... Very janky, I know... :tongue:

After the enlightening discussion on this thread, here's the build that I've come up with...

Meat-Hooks

Lands
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

Slivers
4 Plated Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
2 Talon Sliver

Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Counterspell
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard
1 Counterspell
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Chill
2 Disenchant
2 Naturalize
4 Disrupt

SB's just something I threw together... It's not final by any means... :tongue:

The single EE in the MD has been OK for me... Not overly amazing, just OK... I've never been unhappy by drawing it, but it's a placeholder until I figure out what should be in its place (either another Hook or Counterspell)... I'm even flirting with running 16 lands...

I've been trying it out and things have been going smoothly... Notably, I've beaten red Thresh with this current deck, as well as Sligh and Nausea... And as I'm typing this, I'm beating Angel Stax Game1 even though he went first and played Chalice for 1 right off the bat... :tongue:

[Volt]

Disrupt in the SB is kind of interesting. Do you ever side it in, and does it help?

[Maverick676]

Well I'm glad this discussion is going well. While everyone has a different variation on the deck, I think we have all agreed on the core of the deck. I'm begining to think that the leftover 8 slots or so will be pretty much metagame dependent. Although I think stifle is a good choice in the main just about everywhere. In regards to EE vs. Counterspell I think it really depends on the meta against control and such counterspell is the better choice, against aggro I'd have to go with the explosives.

I don't really like the 1 EE in the main it seems like you should add the second or just run another Talon/Counterspell or maybe one maindeck call. But if its working for you then keep running it.

Disrupt seems interesting. Guessing it's for the thresh, burn and control matchups?

[xsockmonkeyx]

Disrupt seems interesting. Guessing it's for the thresh, burn and control matchups?

Disrupt also hoses Deadguy's and Red Death's discards and sinkholes.

2nd turn Hymn? Nah, ill draw a card instead :P

[Pinder]

I'm really thinking that Disrupt deserves a place in the board. To be honest, I hadn't heard about it until now. I think it could be brought in from the board replacing Daze against instants and sorceries that hose us (Wrath of God, anyone?). As it stands, it's probably a metagame choice, as I wouldn't run them due to the lack of Deadguy/Red Death/Burn/Mono-White Instant Bird Jank, etc. in my meta.

Definitely a nice idea, though.

EDIT: Almost forgot, I'm taking the updated list to a tourney tonight, I should have a report up by sometime tomorrow. Wish me luck.

[kicks_422]

Whew, I thought I was gonna get flamed for those Disrupts... Heh... :tongue: I board it in much, usually against the mentioned black-based disruption and burn, the decks that we're supposed to play as the control part of aggro-control... I usually replace Stifle with it, as the decks I side it in against don't have much activated abilities to Stifle (i'll never Stifle the ablity of Negator... :tongue:) They've been great so far, it's just a matter of knowing when to board them in...

As for the 1 EE maindeck, as I mentioned, it's a placeholder... I'm never not happy when I draw it, but I'm making a mental checklist of what I wanted it to be more, either a Sliver, a Counterspell, or an Eladamri's Call... So far, nothing's standing out yet... I'll let you guys know when I come to a decision...

[Pinder]

Nah, apparently you only get flamed if you suggest Wasteland :laugh:. Sorry about that Phantom, I think we were still a little hot headed from all the 'Hibernation Sliver' business that was going around....but the deck still can't support it either way :tongue:.

Oh, and I just found out that Mav picked up a playset of foil Stifles(ZOMG!). I'm still crapping my pants. They're just so.....beautiful...*sniff*. We've also located a foil playset of both Daze and Serum Visions. Thanks Mav, for pimpin' my (our) deck!

As for the tourney, I narrowly avoided the mirror (finally), and I went 3-1.....technically. More details on that later. I can say that Slivers got plenty of playtesting against Iggy Pop, though. I'll have a full report up tomorrow.

And God, they're so shiny.

EDIT: Oh, and Mav and I decided last night that we think the deck should be called 'Short Bus'. See if you can figure out why :wink:.

[xsockmonkeyx]

EDIT: Oh, and Mav and I decided last night that we think the deck should be called 'Short Bus'. See if you can figure out why :wink:.

Because 1) Plate Sliver 2) Crystal Sliver 3)Muscle Sliver is retarded?

[Pinder]

Well, no, but that makes sense too :laugh:. It's actually because Slivers (with their one arm) look like retarted kids. Or at least, me imitating a Sliver makes me look like a retarded kid. Yeah. And it also has the same appeal as the name Faerie Stompy. Who wants to say they lost to the Short Bus? Mostly we just like the name Short Bus.

But enough about deck naming, it's time for a tourney report (Yay!).

Slivers was run again last night, this time with me seated squarely behind the controls. Here's how it went:

Round 1: Random UB T2-ish Control Jank

Game 1: Goes pretty much like you'd expect. I counter a few Hyppies, a Bob, etc, play about 3-4 Slivers, and win.
-2 Engineered Explosives (most of his dudes were at 2cc)
+2 Worship
Game 2: I topdeck land FTL. 3 Fetches and 7 lands in I die.
Game 3: When you draw your first Sliver on turn 6 (in spite of 3 fetches and all that cantripping) while he has 2 Hyppies and a Dimir Guildmage on the table, there's not a whole lot you can do.

I later found out that this is the same deck that Mav drew 5 fetches and 10 land against. As such, I'm not counting this match as the matchup is obviously cursed :tongue:.

Round 2: Iggy Pop (Mav)

Game 1: His lack of Leyline meant that I got FoW and Stifle back every time he played IGG. It wasn't pretty for him. I play a few Slivers, counter his spells, and swing FTW.
-2 Engineered Explosives
-1 Winged Sliver
-1 Talon Sliver
-4 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Null Rod
+2 Tormod's Crypt
+4 Meddling Mage
Game 2: I find that Mav has sided in 3 Defense Grids, and he manages to resolve one against me. But by then I had 2 Muscle Slivers, a Crystalline and a Plated Sliver. I held 4 mana open for Stifle and killed him over 2 turns. Didn't even get to use Null Rod or Mage.

Now, at this point Mav is 1-0 and I'm 0-1 (he got paired down against me), and in our tourney 3-1 might net you, oh, one pack or so, while 4-0 nets you about 8-9 on average. So on the hopes that he can go 4-0 (since I obviously wasn't), I give him the sweep. Normally this isn't done second round, but whatever. I later found out that Mav got paired against Woj (the other guy with Slivers) in the third round, the matchup I would have gotten had I not let him sweep. Now I'm just worried about getting hit by a bus or something for messing with fate :laugh:. He eventually goes on to draw that round, but this report isn't about Iggy Pop, so I'll get back on topic:

Round 3: Red Fiery Gambit/Krark's Thumb/Goblins Combo (or something, I couldn't really tell)

Game 1: He plays some janky goblins, which I counter and Swords, my Slivers get huge and gain first strike, then I kill him dead. He did manage to hit me for 6 with a Gambit, though.
No sideboard
Game 2: I stall, drawing land and no Slivers for a few turns, but I manage to counter and swords enough of his stuff to stay alive and stabilize with first strike. Still, I'm at 3. He plays a Siege Gang, and I'm delighted to find 3 Stifles in my grip, and a blue mana open. No tokens for him. I draw into something pointless, and pass the turn to keep blockers open. On his turn, he double Brightstone Rituals for 6 mana (he has Siege Gang and 2 Skirk Recruiter), and sacs all 3 of his goblins to shoot me for 6 (he only needed to sac 2, but whatever floats his boat, I guess). I gleefully Stifle 2 of them, putting me at 1 life, then swing for the win next turn.

Round 4: RGSA
Game 1: I stifle a fetchland early game, and that wins me the game. Turns out all 4 of his Survivals were in the bottom 20 or so cards, and he never got to shuffle. I keep his dudes off the table and beat down.
-2 Engineered Explosives
-1 Talon Sliver
-1 Winged Sliver
-1 Plated Sliver
-1 Stifle
+4 Meddling Mages
+2 Pithing Needle (I only own 2, and Mav was using his :cry:)

Game 2: He's on the play, and manages to resovle a Survival before I can mage him, and pitches something for a Baloth to complement the one already in his hand. Then he topdecks another one. Luckily, I was gripping 3 StP, and had a Muscle and a Talon Sliver out. His Baloths eat my Swords one after another (well, he sacced them like a smart player, but you know), and then I brought down a Mage naming Eternal Witness. He plays a Deranged hermit at some point, but by then I had 4 first striking Slivers. His Hermit eats my final Swords and he chump blocks with all 4 of his squirrels. He draws land for a few turns while I swing in FTW.

So there you have it. I actually went 2-2, but technically I went 3-1, only losing to the random cursed UB matchup. Mav went 2-1-1, losing to Goblins in the 4th round, and didn't get any packs either. Shouldn't have given him the sweep, but oh well. A Sliver mirror would have made my brain explode anyway.

[Cavius The Great]

EDIT: Oh, and Mav and I decided last night that we think the deck should be called 'Short Bus'. See if you can figure out why .

Dude, using the name 'Short Bus' is probably copyright infringment. There's a dude at TMD that labels all his decks 'Short Bus' and I think his actual team uses that name also. :tongue:

[Pinder]

Well, I guess Short Bus is out, then, if only because I don't want him stealing our credit :tongue:.

Maybe we'll have to go with our second choice, 'Little One-Armed Bastards' :laugh:.

Or we could actually call it 'Meat Hooks', I guess. It's as good as any other name. Just need to see if it sticks.

[Cavius The Great]

Well, I guess Short Bus is out, then, if only because I don't want him stealing our credit :tongue:.

Maybe we'll have to go with our second choice, 'Little One-Armed Bastards' :laugh:.

Or we could actually call it 'Meat Hooks', I guess. It's as good as any other name. Just need to see if it sticks.

I'm still trying to figure out how your decklist is any different from 'Counterslivers'. :rolleyes:

[Pinder]

Apparently Counterslivers ran tainted pact or demonic consultation or something, and that made it waaaaaay too different to be also called Counterslivers. Our deck has counterspells and Slivers, so 'Countersliver' seems pretty descriptive to me, don't you think? Counterslivers has always seemed a fine name to me. Not as fine as 'Short Bus', but we can't use that, so whatever.

[Hanni]

Just call the deck what it is, U/W/g Slivers.

[Pinder]

I suppose we could do that. I'd almost rather have Countersliver though, it rolls off the tongue a bit better and still differentiates us from those horrible 5 color Sliver tribal decks :wink:.

[Maverick676]

Countersliver is a perfectly fine name for the deck. Just because we don't use the exact same cards it doesn't change the general strategy of the deck, It still revolves around crystaline sliver to protect your creatures so that you can save counters for your opponents key spells. A deck evolving to a better build does not mean it needs a new name. Does UGR Thresh need a new name since it runs different cards?

[Togit460]

I personally am quite taken with meat hooks, it rolls off the tongue in such a sexy way. Also saying that you won a tourney with meat hooks tends to completely terrify the unknowledgeable person standing next to you (i speak from experience). No time to report, not that i would anyways, but i ran your recent version of the deck pinder to a 4-0 at my local legacy tourney against nothing but tier 1 decks. (goblins, and thresh each x2)

[Volt]

I played CounterSliver at the Mana Curve 4xForce of Will tournament today. I wish I had some sexy results to report, but I don't. I scrubbed out 1-3. I beat Smart Goblins the first round, despite being horribly mana-flooded in two of the games. In the second round, I lost to NightShade, who was playing my Dryad Sligh deck (he had brought Golden Grahams to play, but forgot his Living Wishes at home, so I lent him one of my decks). I once again got horribly mana-flooded in two of the three games. What the Hell? In the third round, I got paired against The Rock, which as it turns out is an absolutely horrible matchup for CounterSliver. Duress, Therapy, Therapy, Pernicious Deed! Pernicious Deed again a couple turns later! Yay! Even though I was out of contention, I went ahead and played in the fourth round, since I had to wait around for NightShade anyway. I got paired against FrogBoy, who was playing 5c Tog. In the first game I got stuck on two lands for 4 turns, and couldnt mount an offensive. In the second game, I mulled down to 5 cards and pretty much got steamrolled. Aargh!

It was just a bad day. I had some bad matchups, and got repeatedly mana-screwed. On the positive side, after the tournament was over, I got in three games against Zilla, playing his Angel Stompy deck. They were loose games (Zilla is a blast to play magic with!), but I won two out of three. Angel Stompy owns Gro, but apparently has a lot more trouble with Slivers, especially once Crystalline hits the board.

EDIT: Btw, I'm just going to call the deck CounterSliver. You guys call it whatever you want. :)

[Maverick676]

Okay so I'm noticing a weird pattern with this deck. It seems to get mana flooded alot, As in more than is statistically normal. It seems like everyone's tournament report has at least one or two matches where they lose to mana flood. A deck the runs 17 lands and 8+ cantrips should almost never have a problem with mana flood or mana screw for that manner. In summary WTF!!!!!

Anyway everyones results against the decks to beat in legacy seem promising, and I think it's time we agreed upon a single list and moved this deck to the open forum.

[Cavius The Great]

Apparently Counterslivers ran tainted pact or demonic consultation or something, and that made it waaaaaay too different to be also called Counterslivers. Our deck has counterspells and Slivers, so 'Countersliver' seems pretty descriptive to me, don't you think? Counterslivers has always seemed a fine name to me. Not as fine as 'Short Bus', but we can't use that, so whatever.

Countersliver ran counters too bro, just like this deck. Duh, that's why they called it Counterslivers. :rolleyes:

[Volt]

Okay so I'm noticing a weird pattern with this deck. It seems to get mana flooded alot, As in more than is statistically normal. It seems like everyone's tournament report has at least one or two matches where they lose to mana flood. A deck the runs 17 lands and 8+ cantrips should almost never have a problem with mana flood or mana screw for that manner. In summary WTF!!!!!

Anyway everyones results against the decks to beat in legacy seem promising, and I think it's time we agreed upon a single list and moved this deck to the open forum.

Yeah, I really just got hosed yesterday. In one of my games against Nightshade, I kept an opening hand with 3 lands. At the end of the game, I had drawn a total of 19 cards out of the deck, and 12 of them were land! I had 3 other games that were almost as bad, out of my first 6 of the day. It goes to show how strong our matchup against Goblins is, since I still won that match anyway.

Still, I wouldn't worry about mana-flooding. It really is just statistical variance. I have decided to cut back to 17 lands again, though. That way, I can fit the fourth Daze back in, which I've been missing since I cut it out. Good players will always play around Daze, but a fair number of the people you play against at these local tournaments are not good players.

[Volt]

Btw, I've been finding the Eladamri's Call to be quite handy. I strongly suggest making room for it. I've also found that it's not unusual to want to fetch a Savannah instead of a Tundra or Trop. With those things in mind, I would suggest this as a "final" list:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Talon Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
1 Eladamri's Call

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
1 Engineered Explosives


I asked Zilla about moving this thread to the open. He was strangely resistant to the idea, although he did concede that this might be a tier 1 deck. I think he wants to see a more complete write-up with more matchup analyses.

To clarify, the mods want to see a generally agreed-upon, optomized decklist, with a mini primer as a writeup before we move a thread into Open---frogboy

[Pinder]

I asked Zilla about moving this thread to the open. He was strangely resistant to the idea, although he did concede that this might be a tier 1 deck. I think he wants to see a more complete write-up with more matchup analyses.

I don't think it was all that strange that he was resistant to moving this into the open forum, as it still needs a bit of work. That, and we're having trouble agreeing on an optimal list (so far there seems to be mine and Mav's list, which runs EE over counterspell and 4 MD plated Sliver, and Volt's list, which runs the counterspells and cuts a Plated for a Call. It might just be the difference in metagames, though, because at any rate our lists are very similar). I agree that we probably need a more complete write-up (and perhaps a primer), and I think we also need to post some more definitive tourney results. Sure, most of our losses are due to some bizarre instance of mana flood, but we're still all over the place in terms of standings. A couple of 4-0's at local tourneys probably isn't enough to get into the Open at this point.

[xsockmonkeyx]

How terrible would Drop of Honey be in the SB?

Depending on the current oracle it could combo well with crystal sliver, muscle sliver, etc. If the oracle reads "target creature" it would be essentially destroy an opponant's creature every upkeep .


EDIT:(oracle wording)

Drop of Honey, enchantment

At the beginning of your upkeep, destroy the creature with the least power. It can't be regenerated. If two or more creatures are tied for least power, you choose one.
When there are no creatures in play, sacrifice Drop of Honey.

Meh, maybe not.

[Volt]

Unfortunately, Drop of Honey's effect is not targeted. Otherwise, yeah, that would be pretty terrific.

[Cavius The Great]

How terrible would Drop of Honey be in the SB?

Depending on the current oracle it could combo well with crystal sliver, muscle sliver, etc. If the oracle reads "target creature" it would be essentially destroy an opponant's creature every upkeep .

The new oracle wording actually kills untargetable creatures. It worked before the new errata. That's why they made such a big deal about Drop of Honey with the new wording becuase it had a way to deal with threshold's Nimble Mongooses.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

Aye, Drop of Honey is great for the CounterSlivers mirror and for any type of Threshold, since every build uses the Mongoose.

[Pinder]

Of course, Culling Scales targets. And it hits permanents, not just creatures. But it also costs 3, and I don't think we have room for it. Nice idea, though.

EDIT: Oh, and I updated the list again. We're pretty sure we've settled on a standard list now.

And WTF @ no more Slivers in the spoiler? There can't only be one, as Orb hits for around 50 something. Honestly, we have less than a third of the set and the prerelease is less than a week away. I want to see new Slivers in my colors :cry:.

[Blair Phoenix]

How about Living wish over call and running a wish board? Or do you think that would dilute the sideboard too much for important slots needed in the SB?

[Volt]

How about Living wish over call and running a wish board? Or do you think that would dilute the sideboard too much for important slots needed in the SB?

It has been considered. Yes, it dilutes the sideboard. You would probably want to put the following in your sideboard as wish targets:
1 Crystalline Sliver (which means 1 less in the MD; not good)
1 Winged Sliver
1 Talon Sliver
1 Essence Sliver


Of those, only the Essence Sliver can't be fetched from the MD with Eladamri's Call. And Eladamri's Call is an instant, which means you can cast it during your opponent's EOT. That's a BIG advantage over Living Wish, which is a sorcery.

EDIT: And yes, I suppose you could put a Wasteland and a couple other creatures in your SB that could be useful as Wish targets. There really isn't room in the sideboard for all that, though.

[Phantom]

It has been considered. Yes, it dilutes the sideboard. You would probably want to put the following in your sideboard as wish targets:
1 Crystalline Sliver (which means 1 less in the MD; not good)
1 Winged Sliver
1 Talon Sliver
1 Essence Sliver


Of those, only the Essence Sliver can't be fetched from the MD with Eladamri's Call. And Eladamri's Call is an instant, which means you can cast it during your opponent's EOT. That's a BIG advantage over Living Wish, which is a sorcery.

EDIT: And yes, I suppose you could put a Wasteland and a couple other creatures in your SB that could be useful as Wish targets. There really isn't room in the sideboard for all that, though.

I def agree that Living wish isn't the way to go. Wishes seem to work best in a deck that has a lot of mana to abuse and has a need versitile answers (i.e. Rock, Solidarity, Survival). This deck is neither mana packed nor starved for answers (thanks to counters).

[Pinder]

I agree that wish is generally too slow. It really isn't worth taking 3-4 Slivers out of the main as wish targets when you can just run them maindeck with Call and leave to sideboard open for improving your problem matchups. Also, Call can be cast at the end of your opponents turn, which is fairly important here as this deck is light on land and Wishing/Calling for and playing a Sliver in the same turn almost never happens. Calling at the end of their turn so you can untap and use the same lands to play the Sliver is key.

There is one thing that me and Mav have been discussing, however. We want to put Chain of Vapor back in the main. We tested the most recent list extensively today, and found that, while it has a better matchup against Thresh, our Gobs matchup had gone soft. We threw in Chains to see what sort of difference it made, and it was huge, bringing the matchup from about 50/50 to our more familiar 65/35. Oftentimes it acted as StP 5-8, and it's absolutely spectacular against Vial. Even without a Crystalline in play, it was still generally helpful, and actually works pretty well either as a combat trick, or as a way to save your dudes if you don't manage to drop a Crystalline early on. And while I'll agree that EE is probably better against Thresh, Chain definitely has its merits there as well. It's dead against Solidarity, but then again, so is StP, and our Solidarity matchup is more like a healthy round of butt sex at this point anyway.

In the main list we cut EE, Call, a Talon and a Plated Sliver for them, and they seem to be working just fine. Of course, I want to keep EE in the board against Thresh, but I think that Chain maindeck might actually be the better choice overall. It has a lot more going for it as a tempo card than EE does, at any rate, and we've found that Chains usually help us gain enough tempo to stabilize before most decks can recover.

We've also considered (not decided, considered) pulling Plated Sliver out of the main, in favor of more cantrips/permission or perhaps to make room for Call/EE alongside Chain. I know this sounds crazy, but hear me out. If we count chain, we have 12 maindeck answers to a turn 1 Lackey on the draw (StP, Chain, and Stifle) without Plated Slivers, and that's not even counting Force of Will. If we're on the play, then just about everything in the deck answers a turn 1 Lackey. As for the toughness bonus, I've noticed lately that that isn't really game breaking on many occasions, as a 4/4 first striker is generally just as good as a 4/5 first striker anyway. There are instances where the toughness boost comes in handy, but it's never really necessary. In most instances Muscle Sliver does roughly the same job, as the deck usually just wants to resolve Crystalline and Muscle Slivers, then sit on them until you have enough of an advantage to win. More cantrips would help you find Crystalline/Muscle faster anyway, and perhaps more hand sculpting in the early game can help make up for going down to only 12 creatures. It would make us a little weaker to Pyroclasm and friends, I suppose, but those aren't really present in the format at large anyway. And if we see one from some rogue deck, we do have counterspells.

On the note of adding more cantrips, Mav also brought up a debate between Portent and Sleight of Hand. I'm still not thoroughly conviced, but he raises some good points for Portent. Even though you don't get to draw the top card until your opponents upkeep, typically it's some sort of permission or reactive tempo card you'd play during their turn anyway. How often do we cantrip and play a Sliver on the same turn, with only an average of 3 lands on the table? Usually we're holding mana for something anyway. The fact that it digs for 3, and is another shuffle effect alongside fetches (hell, you can shuffle their library, even) might make it the better choice for keeping up card quality. Sleight of Hand fetches you the card right away, but since it usually sits there anyway, waiting for it might not be that much of a drawback in exchange for digging deeper and acheiving better card selection.

Given the suggestions above, the decklist could looks something like this:

//Land
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
3 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

//Creatures
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
2 Talon Sliver
2 Winged Sliver

//Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Portent (or possibly Sleight of Hand)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Chain of Vapor

We haven't done a whole lot of testing with these ideas, so for now the standard list remains the same, but we'll see. It might end up that the lack of Slivers makes all that cantripping less effective, but we're not just searching for Slivers, either. If we gain access to our tempo cards early game, we can disrupt them enough to draw into the Slivers later anyway.

On a slightly unrelated note, Mav also suggested siding Jotun Grunt against Thresh. He's not a Sliver, sure, but he is a 4/4 beatstick for 2 that bends their graveyard over backwards. At the very least he can trade with Wearbear. Thoughts?

[Volt]

I'm going to say flat out that I don't like these new changes. I don't understand why you think the Goblins matchup is only 50/50 all of a sudden. I just playtested the "standard" list we agreed upon earlier today against Goblins all night, and I was winning 70%. It dominates goblins. I just spent the last couple hours working on a primer/writeup to post in the Open forum, too.

[Pinder]

Well, the reason I thought Goblins was 50/50 was that I just lost about half the games I played tonight with Goblins. Of course, perhaps I was just unlucky, as the games I lost were generally to mana screw and lack of slivers, and Mav (playing goblins) seemed to fall into some severe lucksackery now that I think about it (3 Aether Vials in the first 4 turns one game!) However, I still think we could use more cantrips in the main to get answers and tempo cards faster. After some thought, I'll agree with you that taking out Plated Sliver probably hurts us more than it helps us, but I still think we need to re-evaluate Chain of Vapor in the main. At any rate, these were just suggestions, and I still agree that the list we have now is one of the most solid we've had so far. For now we can keep the discussion on that list, but I'm still going to test out the list I posted above on the side. It could be that I'm just blowing smoke out of my ass, but hell, it couldn't hurt to test out some new ideas.



I just spent the last couple hours working on a primer/writeup to post in the Open forum, too.


I appreciate this. It saves me a lot of time :wink:. I was wondering if you would send me a copy?

[Volt]

Well, the reason I thought Goblins was 50/50 was that I just lost about half the games I played tonight with Goblins. Of course, perhaps I was just unlucky, as the games I lost were generally to mana screw and lack of slivers, and Mav (playing goblins) seemed to fall into some severe lucksackery now that I think about it (3 Aether Vials in the first 4 turns one game!) However, I still think we could use more cantrips in the main to get answers and tempo cards faster. After some thought, I'll agree with you that taking out Plated Sliver probably hurts us more than it helps us, but I still think we need to re-evaluate Chain of Vapor in the main. At any rate, these were just suggestions, and I still agree that the list we have now is one of the most solid we've had so far. For now we can keep the discussion on that list, but I'm still going to test out the list I posted above on the side. It could be that I'm just blowing smoke out of my ass, but hell, it couldn't hurt to test out some new ideas.

I think you just had one bad play-testing session. These things happen. I've played enough games of Counter Sliver vs. Goblins now to feel certain that it is a pretty strong matchup for us. Sometimes, though, Goblins will go on little streaks, where it will win 4 of 6 or something like that. As I've said before, the games they tend to win are when they get out an early Aether Vial or two, catch you with a so-so hand, and explode on you. Pretty much every deck in the format loses to that sometimes. If you're really concerned about it, I would go back to 2 or 3 EE in the maindeck as a way to deal with the Vials.

Btw, I'm really sorry I jumped the gun and posted a Counter Sliver thread in the Open forum. In retrospect, that was a spasdic, uncool thing for me to do. I've asked for it to be deleted. Let's go ahead and try out these new changes, and let this deck evolve as it will. When we ALL feel that it is ready, I'll let you guys have the honor of presenting it on the Open forum.

[xsockmonkeyx]

We've also considered (not decided, considered) pulling Plated Sliver out of the main, in favor of more cantrips/permission or perhaps to make room for Call/EE alongside Chain. I know this sounds crazy, but hear me out. If we count chain, we have 12 maindeck answers to a turn 1 Lackey on the draw (StP, Chain, and Stifle) without Plated Slivers, and that's not even counting Force of Will. If we're on the play, then just about everything in the deck answers a turn 1 Lackey. As for the toughness bonus, I've noticed lately that that isn't really game breaking on many occasions, as a 4/4 first striker is generally just as good as a 4/5 first striker anyway. There are instances where the toughness boost comes in handy, but it's never really necessary. In most instances Muscle Sliver does roughly the same job, as the deck usually just wants to resolve Crystalline and Muscle Slivers, then sit on them until you have enough of an advantage to win. More cantrips would help you find Crystalline/Muscle faster anyway, and perhaps more hand sculpting in the early game can help make up for going down to only 12 creatures. It would make us a little weaker to Pyroclasm and friends, I suppose, but those aren't really present in the format at large anyway. And if we see one from some rogue deck, we do have counterspells.



Im wary to mess with the overall number of MD slivers too much because like we decided before there is a critical mass of slivers (3-4) necessary to put up a decent clock or defense. This is not only due to the added affects your meat hooks give but also the number of meat hooks you have in play.


I was concerned when the MD Sliver count was at 15. So 12 creatures, even suplimented with more draw, doesnt look good to me. Adding more draw might dig you to the same amount of slivers with better individual quality but you sacrifice tempo in that you lack a 1 drop and youre digging for your hooks.

Think of it like this: 2x 3/3 (2x muscle sliver) is the same clock as 3 x 2/3 (2x plated, 1 muscle), but only 2 bodies for your opponant to deal with is not as effective as 3.


I would not take the Plated Slivers out of the maindeck list altogether but rather sub them out in a matchup where clock and defense isnt going to matter as much as draw and disruption.

EDIT: Im glad CoV is back in the list but it never left mine. That card is assinine.:wink:

[Pinder]

Btw, I'm really sorry I jumped the gun and posted a Counter Sliver thread in the Open forum. In retrospect, that was a spasdic, uncool thing for me to do.

Don't worry about it. I wholly agree that the list as it stands now is more than ready for the Open Forum. Sure, it could get some tweaking in certain variable slots, but as for the core (which should definitely include Plated Sliver because I'm an idiot), including the mana base, is largely agreed on. Chain vs EE or Call is almost just a metagame choice anyway.

And you're right, I shouldn't let a bad night of testing get to me. I have a tendency to do that, getting discouraged by a random occurence over proven results. I still think that CoV should take its rightful place in the main, though. We can cut the Portents (8 Cantrips should be enough) and put in 3 MD Plated Slivers, bringing the count back up to 16 (the list as it stands right now runs 17). I think we can safely move EE to the board against Thresh (we can side out Chains for them because they makes Chains less useful anyway), and I thinkt that, given the choice, I would take CoV over Call. Call is good, but I agree with sockmonkey that the tempo Chain gives you is probably better for the deck.

And Mav is getting increasingly fond of the name 'Meat Hooks' for the deck, simply because you can say that you brought Meat Hooks to a tourney and beat everyone. Sick little bastard :wink:.

EDIT: I noticed this as well:



To clarify, the mods want to see a generally agreed-upon, optomized decklist, with a mini primer as a writeup before we move a thread into Open---frogboy


I think we're pretty close to having this thing in the Open :).

And in honor of me realizing that taking out Plated Sliver is dumb, I updated my avatar. I'm also thinking of making one of a Talon Sliver stabbing Piledriver :laugh:

[Volt]

Don't worry about it. I wholly agree that the list as it stands now is more than ready for the Open Forum. Sure, it could get some tweaking in certain variable slots, but as for the core (which should definitely include Plated Sliver because I'm an idiot), including the mana base, is largely agreed on. Chain vs EE or Call is almost just a metagame choice anyway.

And you're right, I shouldn't let a bad night of testing get to me. I have a tendency to do that, getting discouraged by a random occurence over proven results. I still think that CoV should take its rightful place in the main, though. We can cut the Portents (8 Cantrips should be enough) and put in 3 MD Plated Slivers, bringing the count back up to 16 (the list as it stands right now runs 17). I think we can safely move EE to the board against Thresh (we can side out Chains for them because they makes Chains less useful anyway), and I thinkt that, given the choice, I would take CoV over Call. Call is good, but I agree with sockmonkey that the tempo Chain gives you is probably better for the deck.

And Mav is getting increasingly fond of the name 'Meat Hooks' for the deck, simply because you can say that you brought Meat Hooks to a tourney and beat everyone. Sick little bastard :wink:.

I must admit Meat Hooks is a pretty catchy name. It definitely captures the flavor that Talon Sliver brings the deck, which is one of the things that distinguishes our deck from previous Counter Sliver builds.

Okay, I guess it's time to re-evaluate CoV. To be honest, I never really tested it in the first place. I'm going to try out your suggested changes and see how I like it. One thing I'm concerned about is that we're continually weakening our game 1 matchup vs. storm combo. I don't want to always have to rely on winning games 2 and 3 vs. Iggy Pop and Solidarity, even though we would be favored to do so. But, we'll see how it goes.

[Pinder]

I must admit Meat Hooks is a pretty catchy name. It definitely captures the flavor that Talon Sliver brings the deck, which is one of the things that distinguishes our deck from previous Counter Sliver builds.

Okay, I guess it's time to re-evaluate CoV. To be honest, I never really tested it in the first place. I'm going to try out your suggested changes and see how I like it.

I'm going to hope that by 'suggested changes' you mean 'putting CoV back in the main'. The other suggestions I made were fairly dumb. Sure, I suppose more cantrip could be nice, but not at the expense of the things we ought to be cantripping for. Silly me. My suggestion would be to take the Call and EE out and cut either a Plated or Talon Sliver for 3 MD CoV (or Plated and Talon, if you feel like 4 MD).

[Volt]

I'm going to hope that by 'suggested changes' you mean 'putting CoV back in the main'. The other suggestions I made were fairly dumb. Sure, I suppose more cantrip could be nice, but not at the expense of the things we ought to be cantripping for. Silly me. My suggestion would be to take the Call and EE out and cut either a Plated or Talon Sliver for 3 MD CoV (or Plated and Talon, if you feel like 4 MD).

Yes, those are the 'suggested changes' to which I was referring. And I'd take out a Plated before a Meat Hoo... er Talon Sliver. :wink:

[xsockmonkeyx]

I must admit Meat Hooks is a pretty catchy name. It definitely captures the flavor that Talon Sliver brings the deck, which is one of the things that distinguishes our deck from previous Counter Sliver builds.

Okay, I guess it's time to re-evaluate CoV. To be honest, I never really tested it in the first place. I'm going to try out your suggested changes and see how I like it. One thing I'm concerned about is that we're continually weakening our game 1 matchup vs. storm combo. I don't want to always have to rely on winning games 2 and 3 vs. Iggy Pop and Solidarity, even though we would be favored to do so. But, we'll see how it goes.

I like "Meat Hooks" cause its Meat(muscle sliver) + Hooks(talon sliver) and it describes the way those little buggers look.

One thing about CoV is that you can bounce a 0 turn drop Leyline of the Void vs. Iggy Pop, so its not entirely dead against all combo.

EDIT: IMO the number of slots that are up for debate has gone down to 6.

Lands(17) everyone's list is slightly different but its usually 17 lands.
1 Plains
2 Islands
1 Forests
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
4 Tundra

Meat Hooks(16) 16+ Hooks is the minimum with only 8 draw
3 Plated Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
3 Talon Sliver

Remove(4)
4 Swords to Plowshares

Counter(9)
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell

Draw/Quality(8)
4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm

Maindeck Meta Choice(4)
4 Chain of Vapor/Stifle (other one goes in the SB)

Left Over(2)
2 Something (Another land, Counterspell #3, Daze#4, Plated Sliver #4, Eladmari's Call, EE,etc.)

Thats 4 slots either/or, and 2 left over meaning 90% of the deck is set, 7% is a meta call, and 3% is miscillaneous. I think that qualifies as a generally agreed upon deck list. As for optimised, that part can be debated.

I might try a 3/3 split of Chain of Vapor/Stifle to shore up the left over slots. I wonder if the split would be benefitial pre SB.

[Maverick676]

Also COV can deal with defense grid, Worship not to mention it bounces Aether Vial. Not that worship is much of an issue except for game 1 when you don't expect it.

8 cantrips will prove to be the correct number I think. Thresh differs from this deck's style of play in one very big way. Meathooks needs to play out multiple threats to win. Thresh can drop everyone's favorite mongoose turn one and then sit back sculpting its hand while still having a clock. As much as I love plated sliver, he can't pull off the same shinanigens. So we can't use as many cantrips as thresh without severly hampering our tempo.

[Pinder]

Maindeck Meta Choice(4)
4 Chain of Vapor/Stifle (other one goes in the SB)


IMO, Stifle is an auto 4-of. I'd cut Plated Sliver before I'd cut Stifle, and I'm not cutting Plated Sliver (shame on me for thinking of it). However, I'd like to see CoV in the main alongside Stifle. Both of them are spectacular tempo cards. I think that the core of the deck essentially looks like this:

//Lands (17)
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island (or you can run 3 trop 1 savannah)
3 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island

//Dudes (16-17)
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
3-4 Plated Sliver
2-3 Talon Sliver
2 Winged Sliver

//Draw (8)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions

//Removal (8)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Chain of Vapor

//Permission (8)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze

//Other Stuff (2-3)
...

Which leaves us with 2 slots open, 3 if we're only running 16 Slivers. These could really be much of anything, and we've toyed with more cantrip, EE, Eladamri's Call, and Counterspell in those slots before.

I honestly think that if nything is going to be metagame dependant, it's the sideboard (because that's what it's there for). What we need to do is iron out the last few slots for a standard list, and focus on our metagaming in games 2 and 3 after boarding.

[Blair Phoenix]

IMO, Stifle is an auto 4-of. I'd cut Plated Sliver before I'd cut Stifle, and I'm not cutting Plated Sliver (shame on me for thinking of it). However, I'd like to see CoV in the main alongside Stifle. Both of them are spectacular tempo cards. I think that the core of the deck essentially looks like this:

//Lands (17)
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island (or you can run 3 trop 1 savannah)
3 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island

//Dudes (16-17)
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
3-4 Plated Sliver
2-3 Talon Sliver
2 Winged Sliver

//Draw (8)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions

//Removal (8)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Chain of Vapor

//Permission (8)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze

//Other Stuff (2-3)
...

Which leaves us with 2 slots open, 3 if we're only running 16 Slivers. These could really be much of anything, and we've toyed with more cantrip, EE, Eladamri's Call, and Counterspell in those slots before.

I honestly think that if nything is going to be metagame dependant, it's the sideboard (because that's what it's there for). What we need to do is iron out the last few slots for a standard list, and focus on our metagaming in games 2 and 3 after boarding.
...That decklist is Stifle-less.

[xsockmonkeyx]

...That decklist is Stifle-less.

Its also 56 cards, meaning....doh, its 60.

EDIT:

How about a 3 Stifle, 3 CoV split for game 1? How about 16 lands?

[kicks_422]

Actually, I suggested the name MeatHooks because of the arms of all those slivers... But whatever you think is a good explanation for it, then... :tongue:

Yeah, it would be fun to say "I won that tourney using MeatHooks..." :tongue:

[Blair Phoenix]

Its also 56 cards, meaning....


56? My calculator(Yes I am THAT lazy) decrees otherwise. The deck is exactly as Pinder added it. 57-58 cards with either 2 or 3 open slots.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Has there been any evolution on the sideboard? The first entry still has 7 open slots so that's not exactly optimal. I know that it depends on local meta but im sure we can get that number down below 5.

Here's mine(yes, it 15 cards Mr. Calculator :tongue:)

4 Stifle/CoV (other one is MD)

2 Disenchant(humility kills slivers; bad :( )
2 Arcane Laboratory(gg, combo :P)
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Meddling Mage
2 Energy Flux(eat it affinity)

[Volt]

Has there been any evolution on the sideboard? The first entry still has 7 open slots so that's not exactly optimal. I know that it depends on local meta but im sure we can get that number down below 5.

Here's mine(yes, it 15 cards Mr. Calculator :tongue:)

4 Stifle/CoV (other one is MD)

2 Disenchant(humility kills slivers; bad :( )
2 Arcane Laboratory(gg, combo :P)
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Meddling Mage
2 Energy Flux(eat it affinity)


Well, first of all, the 4 Stifles should stay in the maindeck as far as I'm concerned. If we move them to the sideboard, our game 1 matchup vs. storm combo is really going to suck. You're not going to keep them from going off with just FoW and Daze. Stifles are just so good all around that I don't even want to discuss removing them from the maindeck.

As far as the sideboard, we're never going to nail down a definitive 15 cards, and it's useless to try. I would start with 4x Meddling Mage, 2-3 Engineered Explosives, 2-4 Disenchants, and go from there, filling in the rest based on metagame considerations.

[Pinder]

...That decklist is Stifle-less.

Oops, yeah. In that case, I would suggest filling the last 2 slots with Stifle and taking out a Plated Sliver and a CoV for Stifles 3-4. Or we could always go with the 3/3 split, running one of each in the board, I suppose. I wouldn't drop below 17 lands, though, even with all of this 'statistical variation' business running around. Any less than that and I think we could get severely mana screwed. For reference, here's the list I should have posted last time (i.e., the one with Stifle in it):

//Land (17)
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
3 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island

//Dudes (16)
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Slivers
3 Plated Sliver
3 Talon Sliver
2 Winged Sliver

//Draw (8)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions

//Permission (12)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle

//Removal (7)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Chain of Vapor

I'm really pushing for this as the standard list. Call and EE are great, but I think this is a better game one across most of the format, and that they can find a home in the board. A possible board for this list might be:

4 Meddling Mage
3 EE
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Null Rod
3 Pithing Needle

Or something like that. I realize that the sideboard is a lot like AM PM, with too much good stuff. There is easily a handful of other cards that could find their way in. The only thing that is absolutely necessary in the board is Mage. And possibly Pithing Needle. Everything else is really metagame dependant.

And I think that someone really needs to carry this deck to some big tournament, so there'll be a report on SCG or something about how 'Meat Hooks came out of nowhere and took the tournament by storm' :laugh:.

[Volt]

That list looks really, really good, Pinder. My only comment is about the sideboard. It would be ideal to have 7 cards to bring in against Solidarity, since we have 7 dead cards in that matchup (4 StP + 3 CoV). I like Armageddon or Arcane Lab/Rule of Law, in addition to the 4 Meddling Mages, of course.



And I think that someone really needs to carry this deck to some big tournament, so there'll be a report on SCG or something about how 'Meat Hooks came out of nowhere and took the tournament by storm' :laugh:.

And I totally agree with that sentiment. I wish there was some big Legacy event coming up in our area that you, Mav, and I could play this deck at.

[Pinder]

I know. We need to get some people on the east coast interested in this thing. I suppose that might happen when it hits the Open.

As for the sideboard, I'm not really sure that we need clog the sideboard with extra cards to replace the dead cards. Meddling Mage is really all we need, and our matchup is already strong first game anyway. I think the other 11 slots left in the board should go to improving our matchups against Thresh, Burn, Iggy Pop and other decks that we might not be so favorable against. Oh, and Pithing Needle, because every sideboard runs Pithing Needle.

[xsockmonkeyx]

That list looks really, really good, Pinder. My only comment is about the sideboard. It would be ideal to have 7 cards to bring in against Solidarity, since we have 7 dead cards in that matchup (4 StP + 3 CoV). I like Armageddon or Arcane Lab/Rule of Law, in addition to the 4 Meddling Mages, of course.

The new list is the best yet IMO.

Arcane Laboratory is strictly better than Rule of Law due to potential FoW pitchage. Arcane Lab is 3cc vs 'geddon at 4 and AL fights both Iggy Pop and Solidarity. Armageddon potentially kills solidarity but the game might be over before you can cast it at 4 mana. Geddon doesnt really help the Iggy Pop match up much because they can still go off with 0-1 lands in play.

What would improve the thresh matchup? Tormod's Crypt seems kind of meh.

[Pinder]

Mav mentioned Jotun Grunt against Thresh the other day. Other people are siding it, and it's a solid 4/4 for 2 mana. It will probably die, but not before we get in about 2-3 swings with it.

As for Arcane Lab, I didn't notice that in your earlier post. It seems like a nice include over Swords or CoV for Solidarity and Iggy Pop, and it doesn't hurt us terribly either. And we can always pitch multiples to Force of Will. AL looks like a solid SB card.

So, we have:

//Sideboard
4 Meddling Mage
3 Arcane Lab
3 Tormod's Crypt
5 Random Metagame Slots

or something similar?

EDIT:



The new list is the best yet IMO.




That list looks really, really good, Pinder.


So, everyone's okay with me updating the main list to reflect that last one?

EDIT SOME MORE BECAUSE OF SOME SERIOUS SHIT:

So there's another Sliver in the spoiler. It's not in our colors. It's black. In case you haven't seen it, you can look at it here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4290).

Let me be the first to say WHAT. THE. FUCK. They printed a Sliver that's only good when there are no other Slivers in play, and one that, incidentally, completely fucking hoses the shit out of us.

I might be overreacting, because we can still counter/swords/chain the bastard, but honestly, this is something I'd rather not have to worry about. The source is "anon", so I'm just hoping they got it wrong. Really wrong. If it's right though, I'd love to crack this thing in Limited :wink:.

EDIT BECAUSE I REALIZED SOMETHING AND I'M FREAKING OUT MORE NOW:
Nope, I'm not overreacting. I just realized that because of our goddamn slivers this thing is likely an untargetable, 7/8 flying first striker that makes us take 3-4 damage during our upkeeps. It's pretty much a must-counter, because if it hits the table, we're screwed.

EDIT BECAUSE I REALIZED THAT I PROBABLY AM OVERREACTING, AT LEAST A LITTLE:

Okay, so Mav has convinced me that this really isn't as bad as it sounds, because there aren't a whole lot of decks that can or will abuse this, and if it gets big, we'll just have to find ways to deal with it SB. He mentioned Wing Shards. Okay. Whew. Maybe it's not so bad.

[Volt]

So there's another Sliver in the spoiler. It's not in our colors. It's black. In case you haven't seen it, you can look at it here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4290).

Let me be the first to say WHAT. THE. FUCK. They printed a Sliver that's only good when there are no other Slivers in play, and one that, incidentally, completely fucking hoses the shit out of us.

I might be overreacting, because we can still counter/swords/chain the bastard, but honestly, this is something I'd rather not have to worry about. The source is "anon", so I'm just hoping they got it wrong. Really wrong. If it's right though, I'd love to crack this thing in Limited :wink:.

EDIT BECAUSE I REALIZED SOMETHING AND I'M FREAKING OUT MORE NOW:
Nope, I'm not overreacting. I just realized that because of our goddamn slivers this thing is likely an untargetable, 7/8 flying first striker that makes us take 3-4 damage during our upkeeps. It's pretty much a must-counter, because if it hits the table, we're screwed.

EDIT BECAUSE I REALIZED THAT I PROBABLY AM OVERREACTING, AT LEAST A LITTLE:

Okay, so Mav has convinced me that this really isn't as bad as it sounds, because there aren't a whole lot of decks that can or will abuse this, and if it gets big, we'll just have to find ways to deal with it SB. He mentioned Wing Shards. Okay. Whew. Maybe it's not so bad.


Worship.

EDIT: and Light of Day (janky, I know)

EDIT 2: side out Crystalline Sliver ?

[Blair Phoenix]

When Time Spiral hits, do you think the new Split Second Stifle will replace Stifle in this deck?

[Volt]

It costs 1U.

Instant
Split second (As long as this spell is on the stack, players can't play spells or activated abilities that aren't mana abilities.)
Counter target activated or triggered ability.
Activated or triggered abilities cannot be played by that card until end of turn.

It's on mtgsalvation.com

Sudden Stifling.

To answer your question, no, it will not replace Stifle in this deck. It costs 2, and that makes a big difference. Can't stifle a first turn Wasteland or fetchland. Can't play a third turn sliver and still have stifle mana left over.

[Pinder]

Yeah, it's just that this costs 2, which is too much in this case. It's not quite as good as Stifle against Fetchlands. They've already sacced the land, so it's not like the 'can't play it again until next turn' doesn't really matter, unless they have exploration and Crucible. And you can't use it first turn, where stifling a fetchland is best. It's also not that great against Aether Vial, since it will already be tapped anyway. Stifle is just cheaper, and in the matchups where Stifle shines, there's not a whole lot of countermagic, so the Split Second ability is fairly irrelevant and not really worth the extra colorless in the cost.

And Juzam Sliver isn't as horrible for us as I originally imagined. You can ignore all that stuff I said earlier. I completely forgot about Worship. Between that, Mage and countermagic, we should be able to deal with this thing no problem.

[MattH]

Oh wow. That's true. I hadn't considered that. No more "In response to your Stifle, I Brain Freeze you again." This card alone may kill storm-based combo.

Believe it or not, this could be bad for us. If combo decks shrivel up and die, then control decks like Rifter will come back, and that would probably spell the death of MeatHooks.

If you want to beat Rifter, run 1. a way to kill Humility, and 2. Hibernation Sliver (yes it means splashing for black).

[Pinder]

Hrm....this could be the absolute tech against Solidarity. I don't think that it will be any stronger against Iggy Pop than regular Stifle, as Tendrils is a sorcery and they won't likely be playing another one on their turn. It all hinges on the wording:


Activated or triggered abilities cannot be played by that card until end of turn.


Now, does that mean any copies of the card, or just the one you Stifled? If it's the former, Solidarity just died, but if it's the latter, they can just wait till it resolves and play another one, which is a completely different card.

I really hope that it's the first one.


If you want to beat Rifter, run 1. a way to kill Humility, and 2. Hibernation Sliver (yes it means splashing for black).


Well, we have Chain of Vapor/Counterspells against Humility. And as Hibernation Sliver doesn't really do much under a humility or in response to one, I'm not sure why you suggested it. Were you joking?

[Volt]

Hrm....this could be the absolute tech against Solidarity. I don't think that it will be any stronger against Iggy Pop than regular Stifle, as Tendrils is a sorcery and they won't likely be playing another one on their turn. It all hinges on the wording:

Now, does that mean any copies of the card, or just the one you Stifled? If it's the former, Solidarity just died, but if it's the latter, they can just wait till it resolves and play another one, which is a completely different card.

I really hope that it's the first one.



Let me repeat it. The death of combo decks would mean the return of decks running Humility, WoG, Nev Disk and the like, which would not be a good thing for MeatHooks. That would be a shame, since we've hardly had a chance to get this deck off the ground yet. The reason this deck is good is because combo is viable in Legacy right now, and people are playing it. We should hope for that to continue. I say this despite the fact that I loathe combo decks with a passion. However, we beat combo decks. Why would we want to see a good matchup disappear from the format?

Btw, I've been play-testing the new decklist tonight, and I have to say I'm not enamored with the CoVs to this point. I generally find myself wishing they were Pithing Needles or Engineered Explosives instead. Would it be wacky to run Pithing Needles AND Stifles maindeck?

[kicks_422]

I've borrowed the cards I need just in time to take this to our local tourney in the weekend... I'm using the list recently posted by Pinder... I've sleeved it up and am playtesting it with my friends, and it's pretty darn good, really... Only thing I can't consistently beat is my Dryad Sligh deck, that Volt is aware of... I'm the only guy that plays it in my meta though, so I'm not worried... :tongue:

EDIT: Actually Volt, I don't think the death of combo would also spell death of MeatHooks... If we really want to develop this deck, we also have to factor in its evolution... Like when Miracle Gro lost its steam because of the influx of aggro decks (Goblins, actually) and the subsequent influx of creature removal in decks, the deck evolved into Threshold... Modifying the list into something which pawns control wouldn't be too hard, as we still have Crystalline, which nullifies targeted removal, and Chain for troublesome permanents, and if control becomes a huge force again, Counterspells could be sneaked in somewhere... But then again, that's looking forward to something that might not happen... In the meantime, let's just enjoy the awesomeness that is MeatHooks... :tongue:

[Maverick676]

There is no way combo is going to die in legacy. Iggy-Pop could care less about this card. Leyline of the void + Ill-Gotten Gains removes the hand so you can't hold onto this until they play tendrils. In fact with maindeck defense grid Iggy-Pop can play around this card all day long.

Rifter if it were to return would be a bad matchup for this deck, but it would be by no means unwinnable. Ray of revaltion would just have to be a 4 of in the sideboard, Needle can shut off their most dangerous cyclers such as decree, and dragon. Hell maybe we would even have to run stabilizer. This would take up alot of board space so we wouldn't have room for thresh hate but we would still kick the crap out of gobs and go 50/50 or so against thresh.

All things considered I think this card will not see much play in legacy because of its two mana casting cost. Stifle usually does the same job but for one blue. As to the secondary ability, How many triggered or activated abilities are used more than once in a turn anyway? Pyschatog is the only one that comes to my mind, but I'm sure there are a few more. But since most of our stifle targets are one shot deals, such as wasteland, ringleader, tendrils ect, we would just be paying one more mana for the same effect 90% of the time.

[Pinder]

Btw, I've been play-testing the new decklist tonight, and I have to say I'm not enamored with the CoVs to this point. I generally find myself wishing they were Pithing Needles or Engineered Explosives instead. Would it be wacky to run Pithing Needles AND Stifles maindeck?

Not wacky, just awesome. Unfortunately, I'm not sure there's room to run them side by side unless we take out CoV. On that note, what were you testing against? I'll admit that CoV is worse than EE against Thresh, but it almost all of our other matchups (Solidarity aside) it serves some purpose (bouncing Vials, Defense Grids, turn 0 Leylines, etc). I will say that using CoV against a turn 0 Leyline really improves the Iggy Pop matchup. Sure, they make you discard your hand, but when you can get back FoW, Stifle, and Daze afterwards, your matchup significantly improves. And they can't really afford to be saccing lands, so I've never really had to worry about them bouncing something if we don't already have a Crystalline Slliver.

Perhaps CoV/Engineered Explosives/Pithing Needle is a metagame slot. I prefer CoV personally, but depending on what's running around in your meta, the other two could be just as useful.

[kicks_422]

I've read about an Opposition Sliver, and it sounds pretty interesting... Might be a good SB card, though I think it's going to cost 2UU so it might be a stretch...

Brood Sliver + Shifting/Winged Sliver + Opposition Sliver is hot though... Heh, might try that out in casual... :tongue:

[Blair Phoenix]

Gemhide Sliver 1G

Creature - Sliver
All slivers have "T: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool."

1/1

Harmonic Sliver 1GW

Creature - Sliver
Whenever another Sliver comes into play, you may destroy target artifact or enchantment.
2/2

Don't think any are really right for this deck, but I'd figured I'd post both of them anyways. They're both from MTG Salvation.

[Volt]

Gemhide Sliver 1G

Creature - Sliver
All slivers have "T: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool."

1/1

Harmonic Sliver 1GW

Creature - Sliver
Whenever another Sliver comes into play, you may destroy target artifact or enchantment.
2/2

Don't think any are really right for this deck, but I'd figured I'd post both of them anyways. They're both from MTG Salvation.

Yeah, they're sexy, but not quite sexy enough.

If we decide at some point that we need to add a 4th color, the Gemhides would be worth another look.

If Harmonic Sliver only cost GW, it might be playable, at least as a sideboard card.

[Maverick676]

So I was browsing through the timespiral spoiler and I stumbled across this little gem:

Hivestone
2
artifact-
Each Creature you control is a sliver in addition to each of its other types.

Anyone think it has any potential? 4/5 untargetable meddling mages sound good.

Also this card might completey hose this deck, Although thankfully it isn't a sliver like the juzam sliver, so a timely naturalize or disenchant can take care of it.

[Peter_Rotten]

Cleaned up much confusion and delusion. There is a thread to talk about rumored cards in The Community Forum and there is a whole forum to discuss the intricate rules surounding cards such as LED. Please, let the discussion focus more on the deck.

[Volt]

So I was browsing through the timespiral spoiler and I stumbled across this little gem:

Hivestone
2
artifact-
Each Creature you control is a sliver in addition to each of its other types.

Anyone think it has any potential? 4/5 untargetable meddling mages sound good.

Also this card might completey hose this deck, Although thankfully it isn't a sliver like the juzam sliver, so a timely naturalize or disenchant can take care of it.

Strikes me as a "win more" card for us. Like you mentioned, though, it has potential as a hoser card to be used against us, albeit an easily answered one.

[Pinder]

Alrighty. Those two Slivers are pretty cool but I'm not sure how useful they'll be. Harmonic could make a good SB card, and the Gemhide could work as a great mana fixer, but niether one is really gamebreaking.

As for the Hivestone, I hate to rain on everybody's parade, but I'm pretty much as worried about this as I was about Plague ('Juzam') Sliver.Well, I'm not having a panic attack, but you know. Mav was right about how this is the sideboard tech against us. It basically turns it into the mirror, except they get cooler creatures because they don't already have to be slivers to be cool. Suddenly Birds of Paradise is a 2/3 first striking untargetable beat stick that taps for any color without Gemhide.

This could be where Harmonic Sliver shines. If you read closely, you'll notice that , regardless of who controls the Sliver that came into play, you get to choose what to destroy. They drop Hivestone? You drop a Harmonic and suddenly they can't play creatures without killing their own Hivestone.

I think that Harmonic Sliver might be worthy of the sideboard anyway, though. Sure, it's 3 mana, but depending on what you side them against, they can be a bomb.

But enough about cards that haven't been released yet. We'll deal with that when it happens.

My next thought is that we should run some combination of Polluted Deltas in some of the Windswept Heath slots. I say this because PD can fetch all the same dual lands that WH can, but what sets it apart is that it can fetch Islands. Specifically, the one maindeck basic Island. There have been a couple of times (not a lot, but enough) where I've wanted to fetch for the basic Island, but only had Windswept Heath in my hand. Given that a majority of this deck is blue, I think that fetching a basic Island is typically what we want to do first if we're fetching basic lands (usually against Goblins' wastelands). I was thinking we could cut 1 or 2 Windswept Heath for 1 or 2 Polluted Delta. Thoughts?

[Volt]

My next thought is that we should run some combination of Polluted Deltas in some of the Windswept Heath slots. I say this because PD can fetch all the same dual lands that WH can, but what sets it apart is that it can fetch Islands. Specifically, the one maindeck basic Island. There have been a couple of times (not a lot, but enough) where I've wanted to fetch for the basic Island, but only had Windswept Heath in my hand. Given that a majority of this deck is blue, I think that fetching a basic Island is typically what we want to do first if we're fetching basic lands (usually against Goblins' wastelands). I was thinking we could cut 1 or 2 Windswept Heath for 1 or 2 Polluted Delta. Thoughts?

How about 2 Flooded Strand + 2 Polluted Delta + 2 Windswept Heath? Doing it that way has the added benefit of reducing splash damage from enemy Pithing Needles. Of course, it also makes me wonder how useful it is to have a basic forest in the deck, since we only have 2 ways to fetch it.

[Maverick676]

1 Flooded Strand might be a good thing to add as it would allow the fetching of a basic island,which is really important in this deck because your cantrips can help you find your other colors, however I wouldn't drop windswept heath below 3 in the deck; Fetching a basic forest is fairly important too, getting cut off from muscle sliver sucks. Since muscle sliver is the ONLY green spell in the entire deck tropical island is probably safe as a two or three of.

Here's the manabase I am running:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

I have only 3 flooded strands so I'm running an extra delta, also I don't include savanah because I want 0 non-basic sources that don't produce blue. I have yet to get into a situation where I actually need to fetch a savanah.

As to enemy pithing needles hitting our fetches, It is unlikely given that we run the 3 most common fetchlands in legacy decks. Our opponents aren't likely to needle their own lands.

[Volt]

I have only 3 flooded strands so I'm running an extra delta, also I don't include savanah because I want 0 non-basic sources that don't produce blue. I have yet to get into a situation where I actually need to fetch a savanah.

As to enemy pithing needles hitting our fetches, It is unlikely given that we run the 3 most common fetchlands in legacy decks. Our opponents aren't likely to needle their own lands.

Wanting to fetch a savannah has come up for me on several occasions. If your opening hand has island + fetchland, what else are you going to fetch?

You're mostly right about the fetches vs pithing needles, although I was doing some play-testing against Affinity the other day, and first turn Pithing Needle naming Flooded Strand was usually a pretty good play for them.

EDIT: Btw, in the Affinity matchup, stifling the modular pwns!

[Maverick676]

Wanting to fetch a savannah has come up for me on several occasions. If your opening hand has island + fetchland, what else are you going to fetch?

I would most likely be fetching a tundra, possibly a tropical island depending on the hand,for example if your holding 4 muscle slivers or something like that(this actually happened against goblins one game, it was hillarious). With all the cantrips we run I find its important to have multiple sources of blue every turn, while usually green isn't needed till midgame. Also savanah isn't fetchable with polluted delta.

[Volt]

I would most likely be fetching a tundra, possibly a tropical island depending on the hand,for example if your holding 4 muscle slivers or something like that(this actually happened against goblins one game, it was hillarious). With all the cantrips we run I find its important to have multiple sources of blue every turn, while usually green isn't needed till midgame. Also savanah isn't fetchable with polluted delta.

Well, yeah, obviously it isn't fetchable by Polluted Delta, but up until this point we hadn't been running those.

Fetching a savannah in the scenario I posed is quite often the correct play, btw. It depends on what else is in your hand at the time.

EDIT: I also find that I often want to fetch a Savannah as my third land, particularly if the first 2 are the ideal Tundra + Trop pair. Add a Savannah, and you now have two sources of each color, giving you redundancy in case of Wasteland, Port, Sinkhole, etc.

[Solpugid]

I'm sorry if this has been discussed before in this thread, but I used to run this deck with heavier control elements (i.e. counterspell) and ran quick sliver as a 4-of. I could then just wait to see if I needed to counter any spells my opponent played, and if not I could drop a threat at end of turn. Plus, instant-speed crystallines and muscles are brutal.

[Pinder]

I'll admit that I've given Quick Sliver a few looks, but I'm not sure it fits in this deck. It's in the colors, and being able to hold mana fo counterspells and Slivers is great and all, but this deck is Aggro-Control. If it was more control oriented (as you suggested), Quick Sliver would probably be a good include, as the control player wants to do everything at the end of their opponents turn. In this case, we want to drop as many slivers as possible, as soon as possible. I think the Sliver base is pretty solid as is, and if we could fit it in, Quick Sliver would be good. We just don't have room at this point.

[Maverick676]

Quick sliver would be a much better fit in a more control oriented version of the deck, running hard counters and actual card draw. If combo ever dies out for some reason, and decks like rifter come back then that might be the right direction to take the deck. However in our current build all of our counters are "free" so we don't actually need to leave mana untapped, except for stifle and swords which only cost 1 anyway so its almost never and issue.

Quick sliver really needs some testing though, as instant speed slivers may prove useful. An opponent swinging into your slivers unaware of the talon or muscle sliver in your hand would be freaking awesome.

EDIT: Also with quick sliver out, crystaline sliver becomes a counterspell ,against removal, with a 2/2 body for 2 mana!!

[kicks_422]

Here are the names of the other Slivers in TS that we don't know (taken from the checklist):

White:
Pulmonic
Quilled
Sidewinder
Watcher

Blue:
Psionic
Screeching
Shadow
Telekinetic

Black:
Basal

Red:
Bonesplitter
Fury
Two-Headed

Green:
Fungus
Might
Spinneret

Gold:
Firewake
Ghostflame
Opaline

The Bonesplitter Sliver, plus Sedge almost makes me want to try out a BGR version... with discard instead of counters...

The blue ones, in particular, intrigue me... Shadow?... And Psionic for... Psionic Blasting Slivers?...

Can't wait to see them all... :tongue:

[MasterBlaster]

I'm guessing 'Watcher' will have either Vigilance or Defender and 'Fury' will have double-strike.

[Complete_Jank]

Harmonic Sliver is kind of your answer to Chalice of the Void.

If running calls, I would run one of these guys. He also helps against Plague.

[Pinder]

I appreciate all the buzz about the new Slivers and all, but until we actually confirm what they do, I'd appreciate it if we kept speculation to the thread about spoiled and previewed cards (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4183). I will admit, though, that if Bonesplitter is +2/+0 and Fury is doublestrike, BGR might just push its way into viable.

And Jank, we're not running Calls anymore. I'm still thinking that Harmonic Sliver is a definite consideration for the sideboard, though.

And the more I think about quicksliver, the more I think it might be useful. But I'm not sure if it would make the deck any better than it is now, or how we'd find room for it.

[kicks_422]

@MasterBlaster: After printing Plague Sliver, I don't think they'd be doing a Defender Sliver...

I used to play Quick Sliver in my deck, long before this thread started... It was a more-controllish build, with a full 4 of Counterspells, so I could drop my Slivers EOT or surprise a hoard of attackers by Flashing in Muscle or Talon into play... That said, in this aggro-control build, I don't think it would help at all, and that there'd be no space for it...

[Maverick676]

As for discussing the new slivers, I agree with pinder. Lets keep it in the proper thread people. I seriously doubt that any of the new slivers will be even close to playable, if wizards did print slivers that give eachother +2/+0, doublestrike, ect. most likely they would be over 4cc and totally unplayable. BTW if watcher does turn out to be a 2cc sliver that gives all slivers defender or something like that, I will be punching people in the face.

[Volt]

Hey, guys. I've been testing a build with 3 Pithing Needle + 3 Stifle (no Chain of Vapor) and I'm really liking it. There are a few matchups where the CoVs are arguably better, but I think the Needles hit a lot more of the field. Something to consider.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Hey, guys. I've been testing a build with 3 Pithing Needle + 3 Stifle (no Chain of Vapor) and I'm really liking it. There are a few matchups where the CoVs are arguably better, but I think the Needles hit a lot more of the field. Something to consider.

Can you elaborate on what your testing against, and which you felt was better (CoV vs. Needle) in each matchup?

Thanks

[Volt]

Can you elaborate on what your testing against, and which you felt was better (CoV vs. Needle) in each matchup?

Thanks

Goblins and RGSA. It's only been a couple nights.

Needle is strictly better in both of those matchups. Why bother bouncing an Aether Vial (which only slows them down a little), when you can play a Needle for the same mana investment, and make every Aether Vial they draw useless? Not to mention Needle vs. Wasteland, Rishadan Port, Gempalm Incinerator, etc. Running Pithing Needle *and* Stifle makes Goblins a very, very strong matchup for us. There are fewer "oops, I win" draws for Goblins, although they never go away completely.

RGSA is a tough matchup, but improves with maindeck Needle. Turn 1 Pithing Needle naming Survival of the Fittest is obviously a very strong play.

Just thinking about some other matchups, Needle would be very strong against any deck running equipment, such as Faerie Stompy and Angel Stompy. CoV has uses there, too, but is generally just a delaying tactic, whereas Needle actually shuts something down until they do something about it.

Against Thresh, CoV might be marginally better than Pithing Needle, but neither one is great shakes in that matchup. Unless they're running maindeck Worship, in which case CoV is clearly better. However, even without bounce, you can still win around Worship simply by decking them.

Against Solidarity, CoV and Pithing Needle are both essentially useless, and get sided out after game 1.

Against Iggy Pop, I'll grant you Chain of Vapor is better. But that matchup gets ridiculous after you side in 4x Meddling Mage + 3x Arcane Lab, anyway.

Chain of Vapor is probably better against Rifter, but Needle isn't useless there. You can always Needle Decree of Justice or Eternal Dragon. In any case, Rifter is not a popular deck right now.

I'm not saying Chain of Vapor is terrible. I'm just saying that I think Pithing Needle is stronger, overall. As Pinder has previously indicated, we may just have to call this a metagame slot.

[Alfred]

This deck just became viable because they made Opposition Sliver.

Telekenetic Sliver
2UU

All Slivers have "T: Tap target permanent."

2/2


That's crazy right there.

[Volt]

This deck just became viable because they made Opposition Sliver.

Telekenetic Sliver
2UU

All Slivers have "T: Tap target permanent."

2/2


That's crazy right there.

Oh, good. I was waiting for something to make this deck viable. Thanks.

[Maverick676]

Yah apparently beating goblins, combo, and being 50/50 with thresh isn't enough anymore.

Seriously though, 4 mana is way too expensive for the deck unless it absolutely wins the game i.e. worship. This thing is too slow and clunky for it to be of any use to this deck. Not to mention by the time we have enough slivers to make this thing useful we can usually swing for the win anyway.

The only sliver I see being useful from timespiral is the shadow sliver possibly, although I think losing our ability to block might hamper the deck more than it helps.

@ alfred, please read the thread before posting. This deck is already viable and doesn't need some clunky opposition clone.

[Volt]

The only sliver I see being useful from timespiral is the shadow sliver possibly, although I think losing our ability to block might hamper the deck more than it helps.

I really like Sidewinder Sliver (W, All Slivers have Flanking, 1/1), and I'm sort of tempted to replace Plated Sliver with it. I think Plated Sliver's ability is more important to this deck, though. Agreed?

[Maverick676]

Agreed, I don't think sidewinder can replace plated sliver. I reread the flanking ability, for some reason I thought it gave -1/-1 to creatures being blocked by the slivers as opposed to just creatures blocking them. So I don't think having flanking will really improve any of our matchups. Personally I'd rather have the additional pyroclasm protection.

Honestly I don't see us getting anything useful out of timespiral. From the power level I've seen on the spoilers these slivers all look to be comparable to their legions variants. So unless they print another version of muscle sliver or something at the 2-3 cc range timespiral slivers will be mostly just casual junk.

[Pinder]

200th Post!



Honestly I'm just waiting for the white flanking sliver :laugh:.


Oh yeah, I totally called Sidewinder Sliver like month ago :tongue:.

And yeah, Plated Sliver is better for the majority of the matchups. It makes a better Lackey blocker at the very least. If flanking was whenever you were blocked or blocking, that would be a different story. But it's not.

And the Shadow Sliver is likely to cost 4. Shifting Sliver, anyone? Of course, we don't actually know that it gives Slivers shadow, but we can probably safely assume. If it costs any more than 2, I can't see this being any better than Winged Sliver.

And I just noticed that all three of us (Mav, Volt and I) are sporting new, Sliveresque avatars. Nice. Volt, did you want me to mod yours so it's demolishing an appropriate goblin, perhaps tearing the head off of a ringleader ?:laugh:

EDIT: Ooh, better yet, from looking at the picture I can see Muscle Sliver giving Ringleader a headlock with his right arm. Very appropriate :wink:.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Sidewinder is the best new sliver for the deck so far, and that doesnt say too much. At 1cc flanking is pretty decent, but +0/+1 is intuitively the better choice. However, we already have a decent creature battle matchup, with the talon slivers leading the way, so flanking is about as useful as Aether Nipple. The fact that it is 1cc and its not metallic sliver is kind of cool though.