[Discussion ] 43Land.dec vs. Relic Orb

[Amoeba-]

To those of you who know these both are very interesting decks and are very new to me. I've already begun assembling a 43Land.dec but I stumbled upon Relic Orb here yesterday and have tested it and its very good. I want to see what you think. Just by judging the lists which do you think would be a greater deck overall in the Legacy metagame today. I am considering which one to build.

43Land.dec

2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Maze of Ith
4 Rishadan Port
4 Windswept Heath
4 Taiga
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Treetop Village
3 Nantuko Monastery
4 Wasteland
2 Barbarian Ring
3 Savannah
2 Slippery Karst
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Secluded Steppe
1 Forgotten Cave

4 Exploration
4 Manabond
4 Life from the Loam
3 Mulch
2 Roar of the Wurm

Sideboard

2 Gaea's Blessing
4 Zuran Orb
3 Armageddon
3 Pyroclasm
3 Glacial Chasm

vs.

1 Morphling
1 Rainbow Efreet

4 Relic Barrier
4 Winter Orb
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Mana Leak
4 Impulse
3 Tangle Wire
4 Propaganda
2 Echoing Truth
1 Daze

4 Rishadan Port
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Wintermoon Mesa
16 Island

Sideboard

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Wrath of Marit Lage
1 Hibernation
1 Evacuation
4 Chill

[rockSTAR]

You're choice completely depends on you're playstyle and the decks you think to play against.

I'd prefer the land.dec since I don't think the monoU.dec to be any good at all.

[Bryant Cook]

Wheres the Stasis?

[dakkon]

What's the relic barrier for? Doesn't winter orb still work when it's tapped? Stasis is a better "lock" card.

[rockSTAR]

It's got an errata. When it's tapped it's effect fizzles.

[Eldariel]

It's got an errata. When it's tapped it's effect fizzles.

It's no errata.

Continuous artifacts are turned off when tapped, just the fact that it's only an artifact makes that part of its rules-text instead (for record, way back in the day, all artifacts were either mono artifacts (tap for an ability) or continuous artifacts. Tapped artifact was 'turned off')

[Warmonger]

Continuous artifacts are turned off when tapped
This rule was removed by the 6th ediion and some cards were given such errata (howling mine, trinisphere).

[quicksilver]

Howling mine and relic barrier do work because winter orb has an errata that says "As long as Winter Orb is untapped, players can't untap more than one land during their untap steps."

Artifacts are not by default affected because they are tapped. Also trinisphere never got an errata to say when untapped, it was printed like that since it was first printed after the rules were changed.

[Anarky87]

Do you think the blue deck could use Brainstorm? I can easily see Wintermoon Mesa and some Islands becoming fetchlands. With Impulse as your only dig, I think Brainstorm would help you dig and find your lock components well. Of course then I would probably also just play the 43 land deal. I've never witnessed any mono-blue deck do well.

[Lego]

Lands! finished in the T8 at the German Legacy Championships. This at least shows that it can finish well in competitive events. As far as I know, Relic Orb has not yet done this. I'm not sure that observation is worth anything, but I'd go with Lands! myself.

At the very least, building it means you'll have LftL, Exploration, Wastelands, some duals and fetches, and Tabernacles. That's a good start to any of the Loam based decks. Building Relic Orb basically only gives you Force and Tabernacle for staples (okay, Chalice and Tangle Wire too) but that may in fact be a reason to build it, as it's much cheaper.

Lands! gets my vote :smile:

[quicksilver]

Do you think the blue deck could use Brainstorm?

Yes every blue deck runs brainstorm, it is an amazing card and should be an auto-include in any deck running blue.

[Anarky87]

Yes every blue deck runs brainstorm, it is an amazing card and should be an auto-include in any deck running blue.

I knew this, I was more or less directing it at the topic creator as maybe he had some reason (Not sure what) for not including it. But yes, I would definitely include it.

[Watcher487]

I knew this, I was more or less directing it at the topic creator as maybe he had some reason (Not sure what) for not including it. But yes, I would definitely include it.

This actually came up multiple times during the creation of the deck, but the problem is you play no shuffle effects and Impulse digs deeper and allows you to have time with Kill Methods to win the game.

The other thing you need to look at is that without any 1cc spells MD you can get away with Chalice for 1 which allows you alot better matchups with a good portion of the field.

[clavio]

Relic orb is supperior because I invented it and it does well against all of the best decks in the format. I don't think lands.dec is that good.

Take out wintermoon mesa and play blinkmoth well. Its extra relic barriers and it helps dodge needle if necesary. Whats with the singleton daze?

wrath of marit lage isn't needed as goblins already gets creamed by relic orb. Play 2 hibernations. Llanowar elves own you.

My current list:

// Lands
3 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
16 [MR] Island (1)
2 [MR] Blinkmoth Well

// Creatures
2 [VI] Rainbow Efreet

// Spells
4 [8E] Mana Leak
4 [TE] Propaganda
4 [IA] Counterspell
4 [VI] Impulse
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [DS] Echoing Truth
3 [NE] Tangle Wire
4 [U] Winter Orb
4 [LG] Relic Barrier

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [5E] Hydroblast
SB: 4 [6E] Chill
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 [US] Hibernation
SB: 1 [8E] Evacuation

Also relic orb would have much more succesful results if as many people played it as the land deck.

[Bane of the Living]

Thats pretty interesting. No Parallax Tide? Maybe some artifact mana to help when orb isnt around? Chrome Mox?

Is there a thread for this deck?

[clavio]

There was but it got lost due to time.

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2988

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3918 <- I came in 3rd, recently. Many people say I would have won in the semis if I didn't over sideboard/suck at this game

Id like to play chrome mox, but I hate pitching things to play it. 2nd turn prop is tech.

Paralax tide seems really good with tabernacle, but the lands come into play untapped. Im pretty sure that tangle wire is better, but Ill test it anyway.

[Cavius The Great]

Paralax tide seems really good with tabernacle, but the lands come into play untapped. Im pretty sure that tangle wire is better, but Ill test it anyway.

That's why ppl run Stifle with the Tides. That way they don't ever get their lands back. My buddy Tivadar runs that combo in his UW Angel Stompy deck.

[clavio]

I would have to drop 8 things in the deck for that to work, and I just don't see that happening. While destroy 5 lands for 5 is a great deal, by turn 5 (or 6) I should be well on my way to winning, or else it probably won't help anyway.

[Cavius The Great]

I just figured I'd mention the combo becuase someone suggested Parallax Tide. It was a crappy suggestion though. :tongue:

[smeagol]

I liked Winter Orb / Relic Barrier / Icy Manipulator Decks back in time... I played Titania's Song as a Win Condition. Maybe March of Machines would be a nice one-off in the deck? Once you've got control and enough Artifacts in play you just smash the other guy with your Winter Orbs (but maybe March ist just a win more card...).

Maybe you should add some other Artifacts that can be "turned off" by Relic Barrier, otherwise the Barrier would be a bad card with out Winter Orb. Unfortunately the only other Artifacts that can be turned off that I remember were already mentioned (Howling Mine and Trinisphere) and these wouldn't do any good without the Relic Barrier. :(

[Mr.Pirate]

You should play Relic Orb, because these people who say Mono-U is bad haven't played it. You have. You have seen the power. Clavio would have won the tournament if he didn't make a serious play mistake.

[Cavius The Great]

Relic orb is supperior because I invented it and it does well against all of the best decks in the format. I don't think lands.dec is that good.

You didn't invent Relic orb.dec. That deck has been around since 97-98' maybe even before then. Stop trying to take credit for something you didn't do. I remember playing against Relic Orb decks when it was Type 2 legal. Don't go there man.

[clavio]

You didn't invent Relic orb.dec. That deck has been around since 97-98' maybe even before then. Stop trying to take credit for something you didn't do. I remember playing against Relic Orb decks when it was Type 2 legal. Don't go there man.

Isn't it interesting that when you google relic orb all of the threads are started by me? Im sure there has been a deck that takes advantage of tapping winter orb, but it isn't like this one. If you are saying that I just went online and ripped this and started taking credit for this deck, you would be wrong. I built it from the ground up. There is nothing in legacy that is like this deck.

I didn't even start playing until '02 so I wouldn't even know what was good in standard 4 years before then.

Also I don't think it is possible for it to exist in t2 because legends masque block and tempest block were never t2 at the same time were they?

[Cavius The Great]

Isn't it interesting that when you google relic orb all of the threads are started by me? Im sure there has been a deck that takes advantage of tapping winter orb, but it isn't like this one. If you are saying that I just went online and ripped this and started taking credit for this deck, you would be wrong. I built it from the ground up. There is nothing in legacy that is like this deck.

I didn't even start playing until '02 so I wouldn't even know what was good in standard 4 years before then.

Also I don't think it is possible for it to exist in t2 because legends masque block and tempest block were never t2 at the same time were they?

I'm not trying to diss you or anything, I'm just stating the facts. Relic Orb has been around forever. When Prop-orb and Prop-Geddon were Type 2 legal everyone knew about Relic Barrier's interaction with Winter Orb. You're right, it was never Type 2 legal, but when Prop-Orb was, people knew about the Relic Barrier combo and built decks around it, whether it be in Vintage, 1.5, Casual or just strait up speculation.

[troopatroop]

Relic orb to me is a deck that I love to hate, and don't want to admit actually has some merit. The deck seems janky and slow, yes will surprise you with it's consistancy. Although I don't think it can beat a decent goblins player, it's at least decent.

I also think that you're pretty biased based on the fact that you invented the thing. It's not a terrible deck, but It's not as good as 43 land.

[clavio]

Relic orb to me is a deck that I love to hate, and don't want to admit actually has some merit. The deck seems janky and slow, yes will surprise you with it's consistancy. Although I don't think it can beat a decent goblins player, it's at least decent.

I also think that you're pretty biased based on the fact that you invented the thing. It's not a terrible deck, but It's not as good as 43 land.

Its probably about 50/50 vs a good goblin player.

Yes, I am quite biased. I saw some thread that I didn't start that had Relic Orb in it's name and I had to jump on it.

The main reason relic orb is better than 43 land deck is the combo match. Relic orb almolst never loses to combo, while I can't see the land deck ever beating combo.

[Mr.Pirate]

Relic Orb owns goblins almost all the time. After sideboard it is almost impossible to lose against them.

Play the deck before you make opinions about it.
EDIT: The only deck that comes to mind that really gives this deck alot of trouble is The Rock.

[troopatroop]

Honestly. It's funny when you talk about magic John, I mean it. The level of actual intelligence you have about magic theory is comical. I'm sure that the 4 Hydroblasts you bring in post sideboard help them more than their Disenchants and possibly shattering spree. Really. I'm sure their Vials don't wtfpwn your counterspells and lock pieces. I'm sure Goblin Tinkerer doesn't ruin your day.

You're telling me you've never made an opinion on a deck based on what you saw rather than actually picking it up? You don't have oppinions on Landstill? ATS? You get my point. I know that Deadguy sucks without needing to test it out. I know that this deck is mediocre because it runs bad cards.

Why would Rock give this deck trouble? What about Rock actually scares you more than Goblins?

How does this deck auto win against combo?! Solidarity should dominate this deck, hands down.

And have you ever actually (honestly please) tested 43 land? Don't jump on me for citing other people's testing results when you do it yourself smart guy.

[Blair Phoenix]

Why would Rock give this deck trouble? What about Rock actually scares you more than Goblins?


Pernicious Deed

[troopatroop]

So why wouldn't TruffleShuffle Give him trouble? Train Wreck? Tog?

Wouldn't anything Survival just own you as well? Quirion Ranger/Bop/Wallofroots/Rofellos?

Sounds like a blowout to me.

[Blair Phoenix]

So why wouldn't TruffleShuffle Give him trouble? Train Wreck? Tog?
They probably do? I don't know lmao. I just know that deed, plus discard such as Duress and Cabal Therapy has killed Relic Orb a few times at my local tournament.

Oh and sorry for ruining your birthday Mr.Pirate:tongue:. Bad janky burn with Blistering Firecat ftw lmao

[Amoeba-]

Its probably about 50/50 vs a good goblin player.

Yes, I am quite biased. I saw some thread that I didn't start that had Relic Orb in it's name and I had to jump on it.

The main reason relic orb is better than 43 land deck is the combo match. Relic orb almolst never loses to combo, while I can't see the land deck ever beating combo.


If you have looked at the Sideboard of the original 43land.dec it beats all combo with the exclusion of Salvagers. I myself modified it with Glacial Chasm side instead of Nevinyrral's Disk. So it has become immune to all the main combos in legacy. Gaea's Blessing for Solidarity. Zuran Orb for IGGy-Pop and Glacial Chasm for Salvagers and a very quick Gobo.

[Franz Ferdinand]

I think you're seriously underestimating 43Lands.dec in favor of your own here. You have a total of 4 draw spells meant to find a combo that basically does nothing more than lock your opponents lands down, so if you manage to get the two combo pieces AND Propaganda somehow, you can maybe win. Or your opponent can stock lands and rush you.

Lands.dec is much more versatile (and, to toot my own horn, especially with the changes I made which have now drifted to page 2), and the poor combo matchup can be changed, especially since Sascha's SB was a little sub-par. With my changes, I've managed to scrape out a few combo wins (mostly to Salvagers Game). Plus, it's a far less vulnerable deck, since it plays few counterable cards, and its most important card is rarely stymied by counterspells.

[Lukas Preuss]

So it has become immune to all the main combos in legacy. Gaea's Blessing for Solidarity.

Blessing doesn't help much against Solidarity. You have no other disruption other than your clock, which is, in all honesty, not fast enough to put enough pressure on Solidarity. The only reason the guy played Blessings at the German Nationals was that there were a lot of retarded netdeckers playing High Tide combo, and he figured that they were actually too dumb to play around Blessing. He was right, I watched two of his games there and his Solidarity opponent had the nuts hand and like 7 or 8 Islands in play (two which were shut down by Rishadan Port). He still lost. After the game I asked someone: "Why the hell did he lose to Lands.dec? That should be impossible if you're not majorly retarded..." the answer: "He doesn't run Stroke of Genius, because he thinks it's too expensive."

What I'm saying is: Against a competent Solidarity (or Spring Tide) player, Blessings won't help you at all. Your statement that it would make you "immune" to Solidarity is pretty stupid. :)

[Lego]

Gaea's Blessing for Solidarity. Zuran Orb for IGGy-Pop and Glacial Chasm for Salvagers and a very quick Gobo.

Lukas already dealt with the Solidarity thing here, so I'll move on to the other two. IGGy-Pop can counter Zuran Orb many ways. They can combo off more than once, watching as you remove all your lands from the game (Leyline) or simply go with one large combo, taking your Orb into account. Yes, it makes it more difficult, but it in no way makes you immune to them, and I'd still say it probably doesn't make the matchup 50/50. They've still got Leyline, which kind of trumps your entire recursion plan. Finally, Salvagers players are more and more often putting Orzhov Guildmage in the board. Have fun watching Glacial Chasm do nothing there.

[clavio]

I think you're seriously underestimating 43Lands.dec in favor of your own here. You have a total of 4 draw spells meant to find a combo that basically does nothing more than lock your opponents lands down, so if you manage to get the two combo pieces AND Propaganda somehow, you can maybe win. Or your opponent can stock lands and rush you.

Lands.dec is much more versatile (and, to toot my own horn, especially with the changes I made which have now drifted to page 2), and the poor combo matchup can be changed, especially since Sascha's SB was a little sub-par. With my changes, I've managed to scrape out a few combo wins (mostly to Salvagers Game). Plus, it's a far less vulnerable deck, since it plays few counterable cards, and its most important card is rarely stymied by counterspells.

Obviously you have never played my deck. You don't need 3 cards to mabey win. Propaganda without an orb is good enough at slowing down goblins for me to win. There are plenty of cards that keep me alive more than long enough for me to draw my "combo".

The fact is you lose to solidarity game 1 every time. I don't think any sideboard in the world would make you win both game 2 and 3.

[troopatroop]

Your list bends over to Pithing Needle. GG.

[laststepdown]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Relic Orb make Top 8 of the World Champs 06 Prelims, surrounded by Goblins? I don't know where I can find the proof, but I know the guy didn't play the next day (the champs) because the prelims lasted until morning (when champs started) and he couldn't stay awake.

[Mr.Pirate]

Honestly. It's funny when you talk about magic John, I mean it. The level of actual intelligence you have about magic theory is comical. I'm sure that the 4 Hydroblasts you bring in post sideboard help them more than their Disenchants and possibly shattering spree. Really. I'm sure their Vials don't wtfpwn your counterspells and lock pieces. I'm sure Goblin Tinkerer doesn't ruin your day.

You're telling me you've never made an opinion on a deck based on what you saw rather than actually picking it up? You don't have oppinions on Landstill? ATS? You get my point. I know that Deadguy sucks without needing to test it out. I know that this deck is mediocre because it runs bad cards.

Why would Rock give this deck trouble? What about Rock actually scares you more than Goblins?

How does this deck auto win against combo?! Solidarity should dominate this deck, hands down.

And have you ever actually (honestly please) tested 43 land? Don't jump on me for citing other people's testing results when you do it yourself smart guy.

First things first. You spelt my name wrong. Second, in your theory goblins does win every time, but in theory communism is a succesfull economic system. Every time I play goblins I win. Don't tell me that I play bad players, because I have played the deck so many times it is ridiculous.

Landstill - yes, I have played it.
ATS - yes, I have played it.
43 card land - No, I haven't played it. You have me there.

The Rock has pernicious deed, which is very hard for this to work around.

Solidarity is almost a 100% win every time. Its just like goblins.

Seriously though, test it out. Just because it plays "bad" cards, don't mean that they don't work together well enought to be very good.


They probably do? I don't know lmao. I just know that deed, plus discard such as Duress and Cabal Therapy has killed Relic Orb a few times at my local tournament.

Oh and sorry for ruining your birthday Mr.Pirate. Bad janky burn with Blistering Firecat ftw lmao

Yes, you did ruin my birthday, but I also made a huge play mistake. Thats mostly the reason this deck would lose to any sort of aggro: Play mistakes. They are easy to make in this deck. Also, pithing needle < blinkmoth well.

[Warmonger]

Blinkmoth Well doesn't do anything to Needle since 6th edition :P.

But that might be really weak point of your deck, Needle is a common threat possible to face in nearly every matchup. Bouncing and countering might be some solution, but not when some fatties are attacking.

Garden... With TS it got a new artifct hate with flashback (similar to Ray of Revelation), now it can easily deal with any hate.

[clavio]

Blinkmoth Well doesn't do anything to Needle since 6th edition :P.

But that might be really weak point of your deck, Needle is a common threat possible to face in nearly every matchup. Bouncing and countering might be some solution, but not when some fatties are attacking.

Garden... With TS it got a new artifct hate with flashback (similar to Ray of Revelation), now it can easily deal with any hate.

You aren't tapping needle...You are tapping your orb. Its like playing 6 relics sort of.

Just wondering, what would you name with needle? If its something other than port or efreet, its probably a bad play.

Decks with deed can be beat, but it is very hard to come back from heavy discard then deed.

Also solidarity isn't 100%, its more like 70%.

[Amoeba-]

You should play Relic Orb, because these people who say Mono-U is bad haven't played it. You have. You have seen the power. Clavio would have won the tournament if he didn't make a serious play mistake.

What was the mistake?

[Lego]

You should play Relic Orb, because these people who say Mono-U is bad haven't played it. You have. You have seen the power. Clavio would have won the tournament if he didn't make a serious play mistake.


What was the mistake?

Choosing to play Relic Orb.

[clavio]

Oversideboarding. Basically. Blue elemental blasts do nothing vs tsunami. Especially when you have a chalice for one on the field.

He thinks I should have chaliced for one game 3, but I shouldn't have. I needed the mana to counter stuff, and wouldn't have had anything open to do so without leaving my lands untapped. Its easy to say "OMFG, U SHUD HAVE CHALIZED FOR TEH 1!!!" after seeing what happened, but there was no way for me to know if that was the good play.

[Cavius The Great]

Oversideboarding. Basically. Blue elemental blasts do nothing vs tsunami. Especially when you have a chalice for one on the field.

He thinks I should have chaliced for one game 3, but I shouldn't have. I needed the mana to counter stuff, and wouldn't have had anything open to do so without leaving my lands untapped. Its easy to say "OMFG, U SHUD HAVE CHALIZED FOR TEH 1!!!" after seeing what happened, but there was no way for me to know if that was the good play.

Chalice for one is always a good play as long as your deck is uneffected by it or atleast to a minimal point.

[clavio]

No. I drew it like turn 4 and I only had 3 lands. I didn't have fow. I had a mana leak and a hydroblast, which effectivley meant I couldn't counter anything if I played chalice. Chalice for one is a solid turn 2 play, but not turn 4.

[Cavius The Great]

No. I drew it like turn 4 and I only had 3 lands. I didn't have fow. I had a mana leak and a hydroblast, which effectivley meant I couldn't counter anything if I played chalice. Chalice for one is a solid turn 2 play, but not turn 4.

Well, that's probably why you lost. :rolleyes:

[Weekend Daddy]

ok, I was redirected here.

Has anyone tried the addition of Crop Rotation as a way to bring out lands like Glacial Chasm in case of an emergency and the like.

Also, is it important to build a sideboard completely againstb solidarity, since it's the worst matchup for it?

Also, what's the best way to get riftstone portal to the graveyard, or is it one of those things where it's nice if it happens but not required?

Sideboard:
4 True Beluever
4 Sphere Of Resistance
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 ???

[Anarky87]

ok, I was redirected here.

Has anyone tried the addition of Crop Rotation as a way to bring out lands like Glacial Chasm in case of an emergency and the like.

Also, is it important to build a sideboard completely againstb solidarity, since it's the worst matchup for it?

Also, what's the best way to get riftstone portal to the graveyard, or is it one of those things where it's nice if it happens but not required?

Sideboard:
4 True Beluever
4 Sphere Of Resistance
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 ???


My friend played Lands this past weekend to a T4 finish and he usually just either drew Chasm, Mulched it, or Dredged it. As for Riftstone getting into the GY, I'd say with all the dredging and pitching the deck does, it shouldn't take much to get it there. I also don't think it's a must for EVERY game, but it certainly helps. Tapping Tabernacle for G or W while also raping creature decks is pretty sexy.

I don't remember what his SB was for combo, but I know he had Chalice in there, and he said there were cards in there that should have been Orim's Chant, but weren't because he didn't have them. He did manage to beat Belcher somehow in the T8, so it can't be all that bad.

[Weekend Daddy]

Trying to reword a sideboard for this deck. Here's what it looks like:

4 True Beluever
4 Sphere Of Resistance
3 Pyroclasm
2 Orims Chant
2 Angels Grace

It's mostly to counter Solidarity (Angels Grace is added with hopes of killing the opponent the very turn they utilize a lethal Brain Freeze) and a little bit of Goblins

[Altarius]

Hi, I'm an Italian Boy. I'm sorry but my English isnt very well...:wink:

This is my version of 43.lands deck whit 41 lands and the black instead the white.

Spells: 19

4X Manabond
4X Life From The Loam
3X Cabal Therapy
3X Pernicious Deed
3X Exploration
2X Zuran Orb


Lands: 41

4X Vesuva
4X Bajou
3X Taiga
3X Rischdan Port
3X Wasteland
3X Treetop Village
3X Mishra's Factory
2X Blodstand Mire
2X Wooded Foothill
2X Barren Moor
2X Tranquil Thicket
2X Maze of Ith
2X Cabal Pit
2X Barbarian's Ring
2X Ghost Quarter
1X Forgotten Cave
1X Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale


Sideboard: 15
2X Defense Grid
2X Tormod's Crypt
3X ?
3X Pitting Needle
3X Krosan Grip
2X Forest

I found this version more stable against Combo. Cabal Therapy is very very good to take away High Tide and similar...

What do you think about it?

[Cait_Sith]

Dropping Mulch can be very painful, since it is one of your best plans vs Aggro.