Mind's Desire and Wheel of Fate

[AngryTroll]

Ok, rules gurus, how do Mind's Desire and Wheel of Fate interact if a Storm copy (or any copy, really) reveals Wheel of Fate?

Wheel of Fate: Today's Preview Card (tomorrows, whatever)
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/aa245

[Drkdstryer]

No mana cost means you can't play it. Same with Evermind and any other non-land card that doesn't have a mana cost.

I'm sure someone will be able to quote the Comp Rules but that's the quick and dirty answer :>

[quicksilver]

Hmm, the comprehensive rule book is a bit redundant on this ruling.


213.1a An object with no mana cost can’t be played as a spell.

401.1b An object with no mana cost can’t be played as a spell.

Two different rules that say exactly the same thing, a little redundant but clear that mind's desire will not let you play spells without a mana cost.



Edit: despite the comp rules being so redundant there is going ot be a rules change regarding this

There are other, more minor rules bits you may be interested in – for example, the rules about playing objects with no mana costs are changing so that suspend is possible. It's technical stuff and 90 percent of players probably will never need to worry about it. But take a gander at the more specific rules documents, if you want to know more.
So although you cannot play cards with no mana cost at the moment with mind's desire, that may change soon.

[Tacosnape]

While it's true that, according to Evermind, spells without mana costs can't be played, there's a slight paradox here, and I'd be willing to bet that gets changed. Consider the following:

When you remove the last, play it without paying its mana cost

That's part of the Suspend mechanic.

Until end of turn, you may play that card without paying its mana cost.

That's off of Mind's Desire.

So my question is this.

If you can't play Wheel of Fate off of Mind's Desire, and spells without mana costs can't be played, how can you play Wheel of Fate off of its own Suspend?

[CavernNinja]

Under current rulings it can't. They are releasing an update to the rules with Cold snap.

[quicksilver]

Under current rulings it can't. They are releasing an update to the rules with Cold snap.

Jeez, try playing magic once in a while, time spiral is the set getting released, cold snap is already out.

And yes at this current moment, not a combo, however once time spiral gets released it might work.

[Carlos El Salvador]

Jeez, try playing magic once in a while, time spiral is the set getting released, cold snap is already out.

And yes at this current moment, not a combo, however once time spiral gets released it might work.

I hope to god it dosn't work. There would be no other deck to play in extened than mind's Desire then... :(

[Nightmare]

Just to clarify:

No, you cannot play Evermind, Wheel of Fate, or Lotus Bloom for free when revealed with Mind's Desire. This is because they have no mana cost and spells with no mana cost cannot be played.

There is currently a rules glitch regarding how you would then be able to play Suspend spells at all. This will be corrected to allow suspend spells to be played, but only when they have been suspended. The rules correction will still maintain the interaction with Desire.

[parallax]

While it's true that, according to Evermind, spells without mana costs can't be played, there's a slight paradox here, and I'd be willing to bet that gets changed. Consider the following:

When you remove the last, play it without paying its mana cost

That's part of the Suspend mechanic.

Until end of turn, you may play that card without paying its mana cost.

That's off of Mind's Desire.

So my question is this.

If you can't play Wheel of Fate off of Mind's Desire, and spells without mana costs can't be played, how can you play Wheel of Fate off of its own Suspend?

I was going to say that I thought it was unlikely that it would work, even post--rules-change. However, given this, I think it's more likely that you will be allowed to play spells without a mana cost, if you are instucted to play them "without paying the mana cost".

[Tacosnape]

I was going to say that I thought it was unlikely that it would work, even post--rules-change. However, given this, I think it's more likely that you will be allowed to play spells without a mana cost, if you are instucted to play them "without paying the mana cost".

That seems kind of likely. I briefly scanned the possibilities of what to do with Evermind in that situation, but failed to come up with anything useful.

[Lego]

That seems kind of likely. I briefly scanned the possibilities of what to do with Evermind in that situation, but failed to come up with anything useful.

I'm inclined to agree with Mr. Nightmare here. Although we really don't need any more debate on this issue as we can just wait until Wizards releases the official wording, I'd lean towards these spells not being playable with Mind's Desire. Lotus Bloom can still be played with Eureka though :)

[parallax]

Just to clarify:

No, you cannot play Evermind, Wheel of Fate, or Lotus Bloom for free when revealed with Mind's Desire. This is because they have no mana cost and spells with no mana cost cannot be played.

There is currently a rules glitch regarding how you would then be able to play Suspend spells at all. This will be corrected to allow suspend spells to be played, but only when they have been suspended. The rules correction will still maintain the interaction with Desire.

How do you know this? Are you a Wizards spy?

Anyway, I can easily see it going either way. How about we don't ask rules questions about cards that haven't been released yet? It's just asking for trouble.

[AngryTroll]

Here is Mark Rosewater's Time Spiral Rules Primer:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=magic/rules/tsp

I think this is the most relative part:

If there’s a way to play such a card without paying its mana cost, then it can be played as a spell. This is possible if an effect allows it to be played "without paying its mana cost" (such as suspend or Spelljack do, for example), or if an effect allows it to be played for an alternative cost (such as Fist of Suns does, for example).

Unless I am mistaken, that means that Wheel of Fate is now INCREDIBLE with Mind's Desire. Or not going to be Extended Legal.

[on1y0ne]

Here is Mark Rosewater's Time Spiral Rules Primer:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=magic/rules/tsp

I think this is the most relative part:


Unless I am mistaken, that means that Wheel of Fate is now INCREDIBLE with Mind's Desire. Or not going to be Extended Legal.

I am reading it the same way. Especially since it mentions Spelljack, which allows you to play the spell without paying its mana cost. Mind's Desire is now even more busted than ever. :eek:

[dahcmai]

I saw that ruling and already started playing around with temporal aperatures. Woo hoo!

[Evil Roopey]

Something will be banned, I doubt they will let Desire have Wheel and Recall just because.

[parallax]

Something will be banned, I doubt they will let Desire have Wheel and Recall just because.

But aren't Wheel and Visions just horrible cards if you actually draw them? I mean, they're only good if you've already resolved Mind's Desire for a good amount.

[Evil Roopey]

But aren't Wheel and Visions just horrible cards if you actually draw them? I mean, they're only good if you've already resolved Mind's Desire for a good amount.

True, but it also means that you pretty much can't fizzle.

On another note, I really hope the other cards in the set are sorceries as well, this seems slightly broken with Scepter.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

Oh God. Yeah, Mind's Desire is never going to get off the Legacy banned list now. :P

[AngryTroll]

This kind of makes me want to play extended....I mean, Iggy and Solidarity are great...but who doesn't want to play Mind's Desire and flip Ancestral Recall(s!!) and a Wheel of Fortune? Rediculously awesome.

[Machinus]

Under the rules detailed in Maro's article, Desire is stupid in Extended.

[quicksilver]

Under the rules detailed in Maro's article, Desire is stupid in Extended.

I think we can all agree that desire is stupid in general and should never have been printed. After all playing spells for free has traditionally been a strong machanic in magic. And what could be stupider than a spell that lets you play spells for free in mass, and without any extra mana for more free spells. Yeah, don't know how they couldn't see this one coming.

[Ewokslayer]

I think we can all agree that desire is stupid in general and should never have been printed. After all playing spells for free has traditionally been a strong machanic in magic. And what could be stupider than a spell that lets you play spells for free in mass, and without any extra mana for more free spells. Yeah, don't know how they couldn't see this one coming.


MTG Article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/feature/154)
We realized late in design that storm fit nicely with the high mana requirements of the set. Other mechanics encourage big spells. Storm encourages big turns. With storm cards you want to hang on to your other spells and wait for the critical moment to play as many spells as possible in one colossal turn. This works especially well with all the cards that help you get lots of mana. Mind's Desire is a little different from the other storm cards because its effect allows you to play extra cards for no cost, effectively counting double for further storm cards. Development lost some sleep over this one, but in the end they decided to just bump up the mana cost and let it go.
See, they lost sleep about it. Until they decided six mana was the right mana cost for winning the game. Now don't you feel bad quicksilver, they disrupted their sleep patterns to try to make this card fair and balanced and you deride their efforts.
Some of them might have lost so much sleep that they were later forced to take naps, but we will never hear about those sacrifices.


Two days after that article, BDM was talking about how busted Mind's Desire could be. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/bd72)

So maybe BDM should be in development he seemed to pick up on what they didn't.
Plus he appears well rested.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Dave Price... are you alive????? :confused:

[nupert]

Uhm, until now I was sure you couldn't play an imprinted Evermind out of an isochron scepter (there was a discussion in a german forum and several judges agreed to that). So I wondered when I first saw the new Ancestral, recognizing it beeing a sorcery. I was sure it wouldn't even make sense to imprint it, since you couldn't play it. But if thats untrue, the card beeing sorcery makes sense. We will see it. Mind's Desire has been banned even before it was tournament legal, right? This could also happen on extended, before Time Spiral becomes tournament legal.

[on1y0ne]

Uhm, until now I was sure you couldn't play an imprinted Evermind out of an isochron scepter (there was a discussion in a german forum and several judges agreed to that). So I wondered when I first saw the new Ancestral, recognizing it beeing a sorcery. I was sure it wouldn't even make sense to imprint it, since you couldn't play it. But if thats untrue, the card beeing sorcery makes sense. We will see it. Mind's Desire has been banned even before it was tournament legal, right? This could also happen on extended, before Time Spiral becomes tournament legal.

Banned/Restricted announcement for September has no changes to any format. That being the case, Mind's Desire will be legal in Extended until at least next year. I doubt that they would have an emergency banning of Desire because of Suspend cards until they have been proven to be degenerate. R&D actually tests in the extended environment, as well ast standard, although they usually ignore legacy.

[Lego]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/feature/362#nomanacost

It seems that playing Wheel of Fate with Mind's Desire works just fine. The rules no longer say that you can't play a card without a mana cost, simply that a nonexistent mana cost cannot be paid. If you're playing it without trying to pay that nonexistent cost, you're all set.